# What permanent cable installs should I get to help with video flexibility



## DGotlieb (May 7, 2018)

We have renovation happening in our theater soon, and while contractors are running cables around the building I am hoping to have some infrastructure installed to help with video runs.

In an ideal world I could have my projector movable between 1 of 2 places (catwalk or my anti pro) and I could hook up either my qlab computer in my booth or have a lap top able to plug in somewhere near the stage.

what are the cables and ports I would have want installed?
what are the pieces I would need to purchase to work with the then installed infrastructure?


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## Amiers (May 7, 2018)

Cat 5/6 plus the HDMI extenders. 

Depending on budget depends on quality of what you put in.


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## DGotlieb (May 7, 2018)

can these run through a router or a patch bay or something or do i need a run from each location to each location?


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## Amiers (May 7, 2018)

Yes you can run it through a switch. 

https://www.google.com/search?safe=.......0....1.........30i10.zrMuCyziQpw=#imgrc=_


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## techieman33 (May 7, 2018)

DGotlieb said:


> can these run through a router or a patch bay or something or do i need a run from each location to each location?



Some can run through a switch, and others can't. Personally I would do dedicated runs, or at the very least make sure it was it's own network with nothing else attached to it. How long are your runs? Extenders over cat 6 are often only good for 150' or less. The other option is to run SDI it's good for longer ranges up to 600 feet, it will have to have a dedicated run to each location. That could be from projector location to video source location, or you could have a patch panel for it somewhere. Whichever option you choose be sure to run at least 2 lines to each location.


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## porkchop (May 7, 2018)

You can never have enough cat6 runs in my opinion.


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## mikefellh (May 7, 2018)

Amiers said:


> Cat 5/6 plus the HDMI extenders.




DGotlieb said:


> can these run through a router or a patch bay or something or do i need a run from each location to each location?




Amiers said:


> Yes you can run it through a switch.



*Actually, the answer is almost always NO!!!*

There are *very few* extenders on the market that can go though network hubs/switches, and if if they can they CAN'T share a hub/switch with network traffic or other extenders...they have to be DEDICATED to the ONE extender!

The reason is MOST extenders don't follow "Ethernet" protocol for signals and wiring configuration...for instance one extender I bought transmits voltage through the Cat cable (using only one power supply that's shared to power both transmitter and receiver instead of one for each end), and this voltage would damage an Ethernet hub/switch.

For example, NONE of the extenders *I* bought (HDMI, VGA, USB, XLR) can go through a network hub/switch...they need a direct connection via dedicated cable and jacks. It specifies that in their manuals!

The "Mirabox" that's mentioned in the link above DOES use Ethernet protocol, *BUT *reviews on Amazon say it has "sub-optimal video" including "dropping frames". Don't confuse Cat5/5e/6 etc. with Ethernet!


porkchop said:


> You can never have enough cat6 runs in my opinion.



That is TRUE! Last summer I had SIX dedicated Cat6 lines installed between BOH and FOH, thinking that I wouldn't use them all. Well, I'm using one HDMI extender up (for presenters to connect to BOH projector), two VGA extenders down (one for controlling the BOH computer, the other for seeing what the projector will show), a USB extender down (for controlling BOH computer), a 4x XLR extender down, and decided to use the last one to extend a wireless router access point...that's all six already used up!

One last piece of advice...Cat6 may not be best for all devices...some existing extenders specify Cat5e or Cat5...I know the VGA extenders are VERY fussy, and while it's good enough quality image for my needs, if I wanted to use them for projection I'd have to replace the Cat6 cable I got with Cat5 cable specified in the manual.

Also while most extenders specify UTP (Unshielded Twisted Pair), the XLR extender I bought actually specifies SHIELDED Cat cable...while in my configuration I can get away with using UTP cable, I can't use phantom voltage without the shielding as it needs the ground connection to do phantom.


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## Amiers (May 7, 2018)

I didn’t say if it worked well or not but it is definitely a thing. He hasn’t disclosed a budget so it’s hard to pin point gear.

So the answer is No, it’s depends how much money you want to spend.

Looking at my link shows many examples of that.


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## mikefellh (May 7, 2018)

Which is why I posted my _personal _experience with Cat extenders, and what I've learned over the past year of using them in an auditorium.


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## SteveB (May 8, 2018)

Mike has this correct. Many video systems are merely using the Cat 6 wiring as _wiring, _they are not sending signal via TCP/IP and as such, have no need for a switch. 

Best practice is to install an Ethernet patch pay as well as a (potentially unused for the moment) PoE switch.


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## Lextech (May 8, 2018)

Total length also has to be considered. Because of the 100 meter limit on CAT, we installed fiber along with CAT6. As mentioned above some extenders don't play well with other network traffic, however, we are about to start a build where video and Dante will share a network. We will see around July 1st how that works out. As a side note, CAT 6 and 6A are superior to CAT 5e and in any use specifying 5e they should work. The limiting factor on some CAT devices, X-32, M-32 and the like is shielding.


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## mikefellh (May 8, 2018)

Lextech said:


> Total length also has to be considered. Because of the 100 meter limit on CAT



While that may be true, the extenders themselves have their own limitations depending on which one you buy. For instance the electrically measured distance using a Fluke Cat cable measuring device (that includes any resistance in jacks) in our setup is 75 feet/23m, and the first device we got had a limit of 30m...it worked, but it was a low-end one we bought for our initial testing when we ran less cable and we weren't happy with its performance with the longer permanent wiring (it would lose the link from time to time and would have to do a new handshake).


Lextech said:


> As a side note, CAT 6 and 6A are superior to CAT 5e and in any use specifying 5e they should work.



Superior for Ethernet may not be better for extenders if they specify an earlier cable type. For instance the VGA extenders we got send analog signals through the Cat cable, and the specs of the "better" cable causes issues with the picture...see the following link which I wrote when I first started using VGA extenders and had issues of smearing:
https://www.controlbooth.com/threads/anyone-find-a-vga-extender-that-works.43347/

The following is the BOH/booth end of our Cat setup...there's similar jacks at the FOH location:



Actually had a tough time finding a Cat installer who wanted to touch the job...contacted 15 companies for quotes describing this is a Cat setup for extenders, and that it would require running the cable 20 feet up (from floor to above the ceiling of the auditorium), and only ONE company sent us a quote back to take the job...don't know if it's the fact we weren't using this for Ethernet use, or the fact of the high cable run that scared the others off. Even so the company that did the job we weren't happy with...even though they saw the room and the height beforehand they came with a FOLDING ladder that was too short (they had to use the top rung), they installed the wrong cables (we specified 5e and they installed 6a because it was "better"), they used the smallest raceway they could get away with (no room for future expansion), and they left cut off wire garbage behind.


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## MNicolai (May 8, 2018)

My standard for AV tielines intended for video extenders is shielded CAT6A -- specifically West Penn 4246A.

You are better looking for an AV installer to do this work than a generic cabling installer. Cabling installers -- surprisingly, tend to do very little work with shielded cables. They _can_ install shielded cable, but depending on the contractor it may not be their forte. I often see them using the wrong crimpers on the shielded connectors, using whatever mish mash of leftover shielded connectors they had in their inventory, or even sometimes using shielded cable with unshielded connectors (defeating the purpose of the shielding altogether).

Upon installation and termination, the installer not only needs to perform a wire map, but they need to run a CAT6A F/UTP channel certification. There are a number of performance characteristics that can cause a cable to fail in a high-bandwith application that will not show up on a simple wire map test. These certification tester kits cost $20k/ea, so again -- you need to make sure you're contracting someone who is qualified and equipped to perform this work. Certification test reports should be given to you afterward in a PDF format. If you have problems down the road with your equipment, manufacturers will often require to see these before they give you too much support for what could be a cabling issue. That test report should look something like this:



If you have a projector with a native HDBASET input that you want to use, then you need to buy an HDBASET transmitter (Crestron, Kramer, insert-your-favorite-brand-here etc.). If not, then you'll need a full transmitter/receiver pair. Not all HDBASET(ish) systems are created equal. Refer to product cut sheets for length limitations at specific resolutions. Length limitations are not just about the cables in the walls. They also include any patch cords you need to get between jacks and your equipment. If you want to drive an input at FOH to a data patch panel in your control booth, and then down another data cable out to your catwalk projector, you need to account for the whole length of the signal flow. TX > PATCH CORD > CABLE TO BOOTH > PATCH CORD > CABLE TO CATWALK > PATCH CORD.

ALTERNATIVE OPTION:

You can save some expense on shielded cabling if you go with an Ethernet-based option. Then you only need unshielded CAT6 for your cabling and a decent gigabit network switch to play traffic cop (this should not be part of your building network). There's a wide variety of Ethernet-based systems available on the market. They all involve some degree of compression. Lower-cost units tend to have more latency or compression codecs that noticeably degrade the signal. The higher grade units that have only 1-2 frames of latency, go up to 4K 4:4:4, and have no discernible degradation are AMX's SVSI or Crestron's NVX product series. You can get away with paying less for Ethernet-based solutions ala Amazon, but I wouldn't plan on doing IMAG because everyone will be able to see that the video is noticeably lagging behind the action on-stage.


Basically -- you can invest in higher grade shielded CAT6A cabling, or you can go with common unshielded CAT6 cabling and higher grade electronics. For whatever it's worth, the trend is toward Ethernet-based solutions on unshielded CAT6 as the prices for the electronics come down.


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## mikefellh (May 8, 2018)

MNicolai said:


> Basically -- you can invest in higher grade shielded CAT6A cabling, or you can go with common unshielded CAT6 cabling and higher grade electronics. For whatever it's worth, the trend is toward Ethernet-based solutions on unshielded CAT6 as the prices for the electronics come down.



But again, you have to look at what extenders you are using, as most specify using *UTP* cable, and only ONE I bought specifies SHIELDED Twisted Pair!


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## MNicolai (May 8, 2018)

Many are specified that way to accommodate existing conditions, but generally you can go a longer distance with shielded cabling. Assuming you don't know what you're going to use it for or you want to be able to do 4K at some point (and yes, the cost is coming down on 4K projectors), shielded cabling is a wiser infrastructure choice for point-to-point HDBASET.


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## mikefellh (May 8, 2018)

MNicolai said:


> Many are specified that way to accommodate existing conditions, but generally you can go a longer distance with shielded cabling. Assuming you don't know what you're going to use it for or you want to be able to do 4K at some point (and yes, the cost is coming down on 4K projectors), shielded cabling is a wiser infrastructure choice for point-to-point HDBASET.



And I understand the THEORY...but then why does all but one extender I own specifically specify UNSHIELDED???

Why don't they say to use shielded if it is better? Especially the VGA extenders which are very fussy!


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## MNicolai (May 9, 2018)

It’s a marketing talking point. There are more people in the world searching for extenders that work with their existing cabling than there are people shopping for extenders to use with new shielded cabling. Makes for better search engine optimization.

You will particularly find when you get into 4K60 or 4:4:4 color that the bandwidth simply pushes beyond what an unshielded cable can perform at for any reasonable distance. It’s a 10G link. You may be able to cheat 10G performance out of a UTP solution, but only for a limited distance under ideal conditions (low noise environment, minimal number of cables bundled together, twists in pairs maintained as close as possible up to terminations, minimal looping, kinking, etc in cabling, so on)

VGA doesn’t begin to approach 1G capacity for UTP C6. The way you get better performance out of that is by better electronics, not so much better cabling, and most VGA extenders are analog signals so the amount of extra performance they can get out of higher grade data cabling is a diminishing return.

On the side topic of 10G, there is actually a small side of the market pushing a 10G video-over-Ethernet protocol called SDVoE. SDVoE is the FLAC-wannabe of video signals. Lossless-ish, but it’s still compressed. Only a few companies like Christie Digital are pushing it as a heavenly solution. High buy-in cost because you need devices that support it, shielded 6A to handle the 10G links, and beefy 40G or 100G enterprise core switches to handle the bandwidth. After all that, you’ll never get the payoff out of it that someday maybe you can use it to distribute all over your existing enterprise network. Very few worthwhile applications for it IMO.


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## soundtech193746 (May 9, 2018)

porkchop said:


> You can never have enough cat6 runs in my opinion.



Not related to the topic, but your icon is taking me back to AOL days! Oh the nostalgia!


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## DGotlieb (May 9, 2018)

OK, so i'm attaching a drawing of the space, nothing should be more then 100'. I think from what you guys are saying this may be what I ask the contractors for.









Cat 5 Runs



__ DGotlieb
__ May 9, 2018





I want the projector to be set at either potion A or B and the computer running patch in at either 1 or 2
So i think i will ask for 4 nodes at each point with two cables (cat6 shielded?) froming along each colored line.
if in the future for what ever reason I need a line going from 1 to 2 i could use a little jumper at either A or B to connect the lines.

Then I will figure out the equipment I need going forward. but I figure get these runs in while I can.

does this seem like a decent plan?


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## Richard Niederberg (May 9, 2018)

DGotlieb said:


> We have renovation happening in our theater soon, and while contractors are running cables around the building I am hoping to have some infrastructure installed to help with video runs.
> 
> In an ideal world I could have my projector movable between 1 of 2 places (catwalk or my anti pro) and I could hook up either my qlab computer in my booth or have a lap top able to plug in somewhere near the stage.
> 
> ...


You can safely run 6 (or more) lengths of CAT 6 STP in a single 1/2" EMT run, terminating them in a single gang box with a 6 port RJ45 cover. If you are going to pull CAT6 through EMT, you might as well pull 6 runs, to have some expansion capability, such as for DMX, intercoms, or just to check your mail or ticket sales from the anti-pro positions, FOH, or the grid.


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## porkchop (May 9, 2018)

baileypl said:


> Not related to the topic, but your icon is taking me back to AOL days! Oh the nostalgia!


You have recognize the reference. I think I made it in 2005


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## Lextech (May 10, 2018)

Richard Niederberg said:


> You can safely run 6 (or more) lengths of CAT 6 STP in a single 1/2" EMT run, terminating them in a single gang box with a 6 port RJ45 cover. If you are going to pull CAT6 through EMT, you might as well pull 6 runs, to have some expansion capability, such as for DMX, intercoms, or just to check your mail or ticket sales from the anti-pro positions, FOH, or the grid.



I have to agree with this. Every time we have run CAT and Fiber we have run extra, meaning more then current needs. Now looking back I should have run even more because most of those "spares" are now in use.


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## Footer (May 10, 2018)

I'd pull SDI too. Its going to be around for a long time, it works well, and its bullet proof. Everything speaks it. SDI over cat6 works but its a pain. HD-BaseT works but its not universal.


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## epimetheus (May 10, 2018)

Richard Niederberg said:


> You can safely run 6 (or more) lengths of CAT 6 STP in a single 1/2" EMT run, terminating them in a single gang box with a 6 port RJ45 cover. If you are going to pull CAT6 through EMT, you might as well pull 6 runs, to have some expansion capability, such as for DMX, intercoms, or just to check your mail or ticket sales from the anti-pro positions, FOH, or the grid.



(6) CAT6 cables, especially STP, exceeds rated conduit fill for a 1/2" conduit. You likely need 3/4" or 1" for that many CAT6 STP cables.


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## MNicolai (May 10, 2018)

For 28% fill, you need a 1-1/2" for (6) shielded CAT6A.

Plus Footer's couple SDI cables, an extra 3/4".


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## DGotlieb (May 10, 2018)

While i'm looking at this, can cable from my amp to speakers be run thru the same conduit? you can never have enough audio lines from the booth...


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## MNicolai (May 10, 2018)

Speaker-level and data cables should be in separate pipes with minimum 6" spacing between them.


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## DGotlieb (May 10, 2018)

MNicolai said:


> Speaker-level and data cables should be in separate pipes with minimum 6" spacing between them.


I figured that was the case but was hopeful


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## RonHebbard (May 10, 2018)

DGotlieb said:


> I figured that was the case but was hopeful


 @DGotlieb On the other hand, *you can put darned near anything in with fiber so long as you maintain your adequate bending radius and pipe fill requirements.* A few years back I was working for the AV subcontractor on a new opera ballet center being built in the center of @mikefellh 's city. Contracts had been let in stages months apart. They'd poured three basements plus were four slabs above grade with two electrical contractors and three Electrical PEng's on the project before our contract was let and we pointed out they'd omitted installing *ALL of the line level conduits.* All of the various conduit systems with fills, bend-radii and spacings were on the drawings but somewhere along the line one of the PEng's noticed both the mic level and line level systems were spec'd to be Belden 8451 or equivalent. Purportedly he felt one of his iron ring crowd had erred and he had all references to the line level pipes and back-boxes removed from the drawings. Once we were hired and on site it didn't take long to notice every line level pipe and back-box was MIA and we began asking questions. As the new sub-contractor at the table and with the architects plus two electrical contractors and three Electrical PEng's to wade through, we were pretty much getting back-burnered with the others presuming we just didn't comprehend the magnitude of the project and would need a little more time to get up to speed, especially as we were from Hamilton and *not their big city. * They just kept right on pouring walls and floor slabs *WITHOUT* any line level back-boxes and conduits. We made *LOTS* of noise at meetings and finally got through to them but _back to my starting point:_ Fortunately they'd been fairly liberal with pipes for fibre and those fibre pipes and spacious back-boxes were what saved our bacon in the end. The electro-acoustic PEng was extremely pleased with the final outcome and gave three of us rave reviews on Meyer's site. 
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.


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