# Vision.net vs. Crestron



## KensAudio (Dec 11, 2013)

Hey, all.
[This is more related to Facility Operations than Stage Management. If someone can suggest a more apt category, please advise.]

Our space is on the verge of pulling the trigger on a new house light system. What we have now is less important. The crux of the matter is that I can't find knowledgeable, unbiased opinions on the differences between Crestron - who seems to be the overpriced mammoth in the industry, which could certainly do what we want, but might be lots more than we need, plus I wouldn't be able to program it myself... And Vision.net, which I've lightly tinkered with on my laptop (the design software) and which *might* be able to do what we need, and might be able to talk to cheaper Extron or similar boxes, and which I can alter the programming for in-house, on our own schedule.

What we need/want it to do is stuff like:
store some DMX presets for a few simple stage looks
store some DMX presets for house lights
turn on/off the power sequencing for the sound system
turn on/off the big projector
engage/disengage the shutter on the projector (RS-232)
select the desired video source(s) for the projector, for the lobby screens we'll eventually install, and maybe a confidence monitor (some switching/matrixing)
have audio-follow-video for the respective source.
send midi commands to the light board and sound board for panic/backup situations.

We're a 440+ seat proscenium theatre on a college campus with a variety of types of entertainment and usage, a variety of skillsets from professionals, amateurs, clients, community groups, students, etc.

Does anyone else out there have a similar theatre with a similar wide range of uses who recently installed either system who could share some words on A) why'd you choose the one you did? B) any issues? C) How (if at all) were you able to resolve those issues? D) any regrets?

For those who did some advanced programming with Vision.net: what's the learning curve like? How hard was it to program things like DMX, MIDI, RS232, ASCII? Other?

Anything you folks can offer to this topic would be greatly appreciated.
- K


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## AudJ (Dec 11, 2013)

We have a vision.net system. I have found it to be the most reliable system we have. I didn't do the initial programming, but it seemed to require some knowledge because we have quad dimmers in our c21 rack, which throw off the numbering sequence in vision.net. Beyond that, editing the original file has been straightforward.

We didn't choose per-say. Lowest bid. Strand has been generally very good about supporting the actual products we have. I don't need some of the things you would like to do, so I am not certain if midi and rs232 are options. (The RS232 module is for interfacing a programming computer. -does it go both ways?)

The av module probably accomplishes a lot of those tasks in different ways.


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## cpf (Dec 12, 2013)

AFAIK Vision.NET is just for lighting control (from their site: "Vision.net 4.5 is a fully integrated lighting management system...") so I doubt you'll get any sort of A/V control out of it, or at least not without a fight. Crestron or AMX are the way to go for more comprehensive solutions.

That said, we have both Vision.NET (lighting) and Crestron (AV - projector, screen, video matrix, etc) in our space.

Vision.NET programming has a fairly low learning curve, and most importantly, one doesn't need to be a Certified Crestron Installer (or whatever) to do it. I was able to get up and running with our system with only an afternoon and a call to Strand - and I didn't even have the original designer files.

This has made all the difference in my opinion of Vision.NET vs Crestron: I've been able to constantly update the Vision.NET system to suit the current uses of the facility. At the same time, the Crestron system is still as buggy as the day it was installed - but never quite enough to merit getting the professionals ($$$) out to fix it.

Does the added control and reliability of Vision.NET+Crestron that we have merit the extra cost/complexity? For us, I'd say yes - our Vision.NET system has been rock solid compared to the Crestron install. The Crestron install always has surprises in store - touchscreens BSoDing, network dropouts, frozen controls, patently idiotic configurations, etc... The only time our Vision.NET wall stations have ever been down was when the power was out! 

So, if you go pure-Crestron, make sure you're 100% satisfied with the install before you sign off, since changes down the road are going to be a pain. Try to pry the original designer files out of their clutch, too - this'll make it much easier to shop around later.


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## Chris15 (Dec 12, 2013)

cpf said:


> Try to pry the original designer files out of their clutch, too - this'll make it much easier to shop around later.



In my humble opinion as a Crestron Services Provider, not putting the files into the file compartment of the control system is just plain inconsiderate to the next guy who comes along - treat others as you would like to be treated....
But it does come down to the copyright & IP clauses of the contract in play...


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## TheaterEd (Dec 12, 2013)

I have a crestron controller that handles my projector on/off and a simple audio system. I will say, that not being able to program it is a pain in the butt. I have been trying to get someone out to reprogram the thing for months now.

Two quirks about the system that bother me. One, Volume control on the house cd player. The scaling is super weird that to go from mute to full volume would require over twenty full rotations of the knob. Second, my projector screen controls. I really want to be able to stop the projector wherever I want, but at the moment the only way to do that is to hit the up and down buttons at the EXACT same time. If you miss by even a little, the screen will start going the other direction and the audience picks up on that really fast.

These are just the things that occasionally frustrate me. Otherwise it works just fine.


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## museav (Dec 12, 2013)

I agree that Vision.NET seems to be intended for lighting control rather than integrated room control. It may be able to communicate with other systems or devices but using the serial interface as an example that communication seems to be limited to predefined lighting related functions.

Beyond the actual technology the issue of programmable control systems also gets into responsibility and support for the systems. The challenge is in the party installing the systems supporting their work while addressing, and avoiding liability for, modifications to the programming and functionality made by others. Realistically, the company providing the systems can only be responsible for their own work and programming, not work by others or the potential impact of changes made by others. Other parties modifying the basic programming or functionality of the control systems can lead to a number of interesting situations if the original provider is expected to support or warranty the installation for any period of time.


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## Calc (Dec 12, 2013)

I'm at a university too. We got burned a few years ago on an AMX install being locked in to one vendor due to their unwillingness to share the source code. Since then, it's been in all of our bid specs that code will be shared upon project completion for all of our AMX/Crestron installs. I think the only bidder we lost was the one we got burned with.

On another (Still relevant) note, we had a AMX system in our theatre to control the projector for a few years, but the function it added was greatly outweighed by the mess and additional upkeep that maintaining two systems required. 
Anything that was large enough to warrant using the theatre required someone on the sound board and someone on video/lights anyway, so it didn't really make anything easier.

That said, I find the Crestron system in our conference spaces invaluable. Couldn't live without it.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Dec 12, 2013)

Almost all buildings I consult on have either a vision net or paradigm system for the lights. If a control like crestron or amx is required, it's a separate system that can select a group of lighting presets. (I like dry contacts because even I can diagnose which system is not working but serial communication is possible.) Having vision net or paradigm allows a lot of lighting options including easily changing preset looks, snapshotting presets, and even programming, etc. I don't think crestron/amx is good at that at all. Does not seem like an either/or choice.


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## museav (Dec 12, 2013)

For integrated control systems lke AMX and Crestron it is usually sufficient to specify that you be provided a copy of the control program written for your project with a non-expiring license to use that programming in support of that specific installation. That should get you the programming code written for your project to use in supporting the system while avoiding the myriad of issues that can arise from asking for actual "ownership" of the code. Reutable programmers are usually happy to oblige with such requests.


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