# Mic goes down?



## soundoff (Sep 30, 2011)

Hey just wanted to get your opinons on an operating procedure. A couple months ago I was mixing sound for a musical with a large live pit and 16 channels of wireless mics, with lots of swaps to make sure everyone with a speaking line was on mic. The absolute lead of the show had her mic go down right before a large musical number due to an accidental frequency change (i stupidly didnt lock out the front buttons on the mic) When I soloed her channel and got nothing, but full RF onthe reciever I realized it was deeper than batt issues. 

So what i decided to do was kill every wireless and switch to the 6 zone overhead mic array, which provided less than steller quality sound, but i followed the dialogue around the stage to have the lowest noise floor i could so i could really jack it. 

Was this the right thing to do? should I have kept the other 15 wireless in the mix? My thought process was try to keep the main character the loudest and if her mic was out kill everything. After the show someone came up to me and asked what happened, when i explained they gave me a dirty look and said it was a stupid decision.

Any thoughts?


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## chausman (Sep 30, 2011)

If it were me, I would do what you did...for the most part. I probably would have kept most of the wirelesses up, especially people nearby the lead to try and pick them up the best you could. I would try and keep other people's(who couldn't help the lead be heard) mics lower then normal, just to keep everyone sounding similar.

And the person who gave you a dirty look, who was that? Was is a person of importance (director etc...) or was it just a patron in the audience. If the former, they should be able to understand. If it was the latter, just ignore it. You did the best you could have in the situation, and there wasn't anything that could have been done at that point in time. Would they have really wanted the show to be stopped for it? I wouldn't think so...


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## Lambda (Sep 30, 2011)

We had a similar situation a couple years back, the lead's mic went down but we didn't have the luxury of a overhead mic array to fall back on. We just had her switch mics with a more minor character. The girl who had to give up her mic was not pleased (livid, in fact), but the show went on.


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## soundoff (Sep 30, 2011)

Duh! I didnt even think about trying to get her on adjacent mics! Well live and learn. I could have just rode the faders and read the script really carefully to boost the closest mic. i did somthing similar last year with The Sound Of Music. Theres a scene where two "lovers" sing a duet and they get really close alot, so i ended up patching the two mics so the faders were right next to each other on the board so i could switch back and forth beteween them to get rid of the nasty phase shifting problems i was having. As for the lady who gave me flac, it was one of the directors friends. He didnt seem to mind when i talked to him about it, but as she was a member of the house i just sucked it up and agreed with her, plush she was an adult with more experience than me, but it was still kinda a downer to have the only major error of the night (but it was really major!) brought up immediatley. as for the show, i explained to the SM via ClearCom how to set the frequency back and she was nice and loud in the next scene she was in. Gotta love theatre.


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## DrPinto (Sep 30, 2011)

soundoff said:


> it was still kinda a downer to have the only major error of the night (but it was really major!)


 
We all make mistakes. It's not a matter of "if", it's a matter of "when". Some mistakes are more spectacular than others. Don't beat yourself up over it. It was just your turn.

When you put together actors, musicians, lights, sound, and scenery that all have to work together, it's bound to screw up sometimes.

We should have a thread here where we all tell of our most impressive fails. That would make for some interesting reading!


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## soundoff (Sep 30, 2011)

Okay, I'll go first. West Side Storry, 2009. My worst screw up ever was coming back from intermission, I got signal on all wireless and everything seemed great. As the overture ended i brought my submasters back up as the scene began. I was horrified when i had absolutley no output out of the board! Instead of checking on bussing on the board, i assumed that the amps or some sig processing after the board outs had taken a dive. Ran all the way up to the mezzanie mechanical room where the amp racks were. Nothing tripped out, nothing out of the ordinary. At this point I start to question the dubious recording split that was being made my someone in the casts dad who is an amatuer recording guy. He was taking directs out of the board on the first 8 channels (Mackie VLZ 24-4 with no directs) so to get the directs he had some crappy molded end insert cables plugged in to the insert halfway. We slide the board out a bit to examine these connections, assuming that mabey somthing wierd has happened.

At this point i realize that the "Tape Return to Main Mix" button was pushed. 

So for roughly 6 pages of script there was no sound. thank god we have a very small house.


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## peacefulone61 (Oct 1, 2011)

soundoff said:


> Hey just wanted to get your opinons on an operating procedure. A couple months ago I was mixing sound for a musical with a large live pit and 16 channels of wireless mics, with lots of swaps to make sure everyone with a speaking line was on mic. The absolute lead of the show had her mic go down right before a large musical number due to an accidental frequency change (i stupidly didnt lock out the front buttons on the mic) When I soloed her channel and got nothing, but full RF onthe reciever I realized it was deeper than batt issues.
> 
> So what i decided to do was kill every wireless and switch to the 6 zone overhead mic array, which provided less than steller quality sound, but i followed the dialogue around the stage to have the lowest noise floor i could so i could really jack it.
> 
> ...



For an on the spot fix I say you did the right thing.


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## mstaylor (Oct 1, 2011)

soundoff said:


> Okay, I'll go first. West Side Storry, 2009. My worst screw up ever was coming back from intermission, I got signal on all wireless and everything seemed great. As the overture ended i brought my submasters back up as the scene began. I was horrified when i had absolutley no output out of the board! Instead of checking on bussing on the board, i assumed that the amps or some sig processing after the board outs had taken a dive. Ran all the way up to the mezzanie mechanical room where the amp racks were. Nothing tripped out, nothing out of the ordinary. At this point I start to question the dubious recording split that was being made my someone in the casts dad who is an amatuer recording guy. He was taking directs out of the board on the first 8 channels (Mackie VLZ 24-4 with no directs) so to get the directs he had some crappy molded end insert cables plugged in to the insert halfway. We slide the board out a bit to examine these connections, assuming that mabey somthing wierd has happened.
> 
> At this point i realize that the "Tape Return to Main Mix" button was pushed.
> 
> So for roughly 6 pages of script there was no sound. thank god we have a very small house.


I'm sure this story is on here somewhere but when I was just out of HS I was hired to run lights for an out of town community theatre. Being very low budget they were using Radio shack headsets and a wireless mic for a little kid. They tested each during tech buut not together. Just before the first show the SM is telling me about skinny dippying the night before in the pool. The problem was it was on headsets and the soundman didn't have the kid's mic muted, turns out the headsets and mic were the same frequency so she was broadcasting in the house. Lesson learned.


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## soundoff (Oct 1, 2011)

On the same show I mentioned before the guy who was recording captured some pretty interesting offstage "banter" on his multitrack rig. Since we were taking directs out of the board on 8 channels, they were live to the multi the whole time the board was on, regardless of the characters level in the mix. So when they were off stage and down in the mains they were still going to their recorder channel. I usually try to refrain from PFL creeping on wireless, but this stuff was hilarious and shocking. Thank God we erased it in editing, because im sure some peoples parents would have been horrified to hear what their children were doing during the run of this show!


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## Dillon (Oct 1, 2011)

There is no "correct" way to handle every surprise that comes your way. Only through experience can you build up your own library of troubleshooting tips to keep in the back of your mind. The best thing you can do to prepare for the inevitable is to know your system inside and out and label EVERYTHING.


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## waynehoskins (Oct 1, 2011)

When a mic goes down (like has been said before, when, not if), there's not much you can do about it. There are two proactive steps you can take that come to mind to minimize the problem.

1. Double-mic your leads. This isn't always a possibility, and on a show where you have handoffs, you probably don't have the few spares to double-mic them. But if you can, it's a nice safety net.

2. Have a spare set offstage ready to go. Ideally more than one spare, but often one is enough. Have spare elements as well. A show I did last year, with 20-some channels of wireless, plus orchestra, we did have to use spare elements through the run when we had B6s die or Red Dots sweat out, and towards the end of the run we had to move an actor to a spare set because his transmitter broke.

Spares presume you have enough time for an actor to switch out to a spare. The show I have up now doesn't have much time for that at all. We do have a spare, and (knock on wood) thankfully we haven't had to use it.

Otherwise, you do what you have to. I had one fail on the show last year on a lead right before he had a solo song. Fortunately it's a small house and the orchestra was in an isolation room, so I was able to drop the orchestra low enough for him to be heard unamplified for his song, and then we switched him to a spare element afterward.


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## soundoff (Oct 1, 2011)

Thankyou so much, guys. This is all really great information!


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## gcpsoundlight (Oct 2, 2011)

one thing that can be a life saver is to have a wireless handheld side stage with some destinctive coloured tape (i prefer red) on it, so if worst comes to worst you can give them that as a temporary solution. The colour helps the FOH engineer to notice as well, although you would hope they already knew.


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## FACTplayers (Oct 2, 2011)

A few years ago I was running the board for a show and one of our lead's pack quit working. I don't quite remember exactly why, but we had to switch her pack out; the problem was she wouldn't come off of the stage for another 20 minutes. I radioed to back stage and the SM grabbed our spare pack and walked up the side of the stage. From there he got her attention and she causally walked to the curtain and turned her back him (her pack was attached to the back of her bra). While she was on stage and delivering lines her pack got switched out and I slowly brought her back in. One of the most impressive feats I have ever seen.


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## soundoff (Oct 2, 2011)

Hahaha thats awesome, man. I think bringing things back in smootly once they fail is an art of its own!


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## Chris15 (Oct 2, 2011)

gcpsoundlight said:


> one thing that can be a life saver is to have a wireless handheld side stage with some destinctive coloured tape (i prefer red) on it, so if worst comes to worst you can give them that as a temporary solution. The colour helps the FOH engineer to notice as well, although you would hope they already knew.


 
Erm I'd be making that a wired mic with a long cable. If you've lost wireless to anything radio like interference then your HH RX is about as useful as the beltpack that's off the air already...


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## Tex (Oct 3, 2011)

soundoff said:


> After the show someone came up to me and asked what happened, when i explained they gave me a dirty look and said it was a stupid decision.




soundoff said:


> As for the lady who gave me flac, it was one of the directors friends. He didnt seem to mind when i talked to him about it, but as she was a member of the house i just sucked it up and agreed with her, plush she was an adult with more experience than me


Any "adult" who would use the word stupid to describe a high school student's snap decision in a high pressure situation is not somebody you should be concerned about.
You made a perfectly valid choice and attempted to fix the situation to the best of your abilities. Don't beat yourself up over an opinion. Opinions are like a certain part of the human anatomy. We all have one...


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## gcpsoundlight (Oct 4, 2011)

Chris15 said:


> Erm I'd be making that a wired mic with a long cable. If you've lost wireless to anything radio like interference then your HH RX is about as useful as the beltpack that's off the air already...


 
I would agree but for a musical etc. where you just want the singer to be heard and not create and OH&S hazard. I tend to find packs dying because of the following (in order): Dead Batteries, bad connection, dead capsule, and then RF. you would have (hopefully) found any RF S*** already.


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## Blacksheep0317 (Oct 5, 2011)

I also am a fan of the "this how to vocally project" method. Currently I have been getting a large amount of calls for musical reinforcement in area schools. As much as many parents of the one liner may be opposed, or the director may be opposed, sometimes whats needed is a good vocal coach instead of a FOH engineer with a couple racks of body packs. Maybe i am still a bit old school, but esp at the beginning levels of HS theater and such, I would always rather see an actor be taught proper vocal technique than falling back on a techie crutch. HS isnt about being perfect, its about that foundation to build off of. Analog gear to teach principles of audio reinforcement, and boundry micing for the most part. 


Sorry for the rant..
just getting tired of 200 seat venues calling in because they are having issues getting the 30 rented body packs to work.


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## chausman (Oct 6, 2011)

Blacksheep0317 said:


> I also am a fan of the "this how to vocally project" method. Currently I have been getting a large amount of calls for musical reinforcement in area schools. As much as many parents of the one liner may be opposed, or the director may be opposed, sometimes whats needed is a good vocal coach instead of a FOH engineer with a couple racks of body packs. Maybe i am still a bit old school, but esp at the beginning levels of HS theater and such, I would always rather see an actor be taught proper vocal technique than falling back on a techie crutch. HS isnt about being perfect, its about that foundation to build off of. Analog gear to teach principles of audio reinforcement, and boundry micing for the most part.


 
I agree with you. While I do believe that using mics _can_ be beneficial, high school students still need to be able to project! "Old, half-deaf aunt Irma, sitting in the back of the house still wants to hear you. Make sure she can, without yelling or screaming."


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## Les (Oct 6, 2011)

I recently saw a touring production of The Wizard of Oz at the Bass Performance Hall in Ft. Worth, where they had a sound meltdown. About half of their wireless mics were having severe issues including interference and deafening static feedback noises. The thing that got me was that I could tell when the board op finally muted the mic, but then you'd hear them sneaking the level back in, as if it had magically fixed itself. Not long after that --- PSSSSHT! PSHHHFT!

Funny thing was that I, as a paying audience member ($35 per ticket for 3rd balcony nosebleed seats!) would have preferred the offending mics be muted for the rest of the show! The Bass Hall's acoustics are good enough that I could actually hear them when the mic was off. Not so much when it was feeding back. That sound guy kept sneaking those mics back in all night. And they kept feeding back. All night. 

Just got an email from the company today offering to credit our tickets to an upcoming show. I didn't complain or anything (I wouldn't -- I know how live theatre is!), so I assume everyone got these offers.


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## FACTplayers (Oct 6, 2011)

Les said:


> I recently saw a touring production of The Wizard of Oz at the Bass Performance Hall in Ft. Worth, where they had a sound meltdown. About half of their wireless mics were having severe issues including interference and deafening static feedback noises. The thing that got me was that I could tell when the board op finally muted the mic, but then you'd hear them sneaking the level back in, as if it had magically fixed itself. Not long after that --- PSSSSHT! PSHHHFT!
> 
> Funny thing was that I, as a paying audience member ($35 per ticket for 3rd balcony nosebleed seats!) would have preferred the offending mics be muted for the rest of the show! The Bass Hall's acoustics are good enough that I could actually hear them when the mic was off. Not so much when it was feeding back. That sound guy kept sneaking those mics back in all night. And they kept feeding back. All night.
> 
> Just got an email from the company today offering to credit our tickets to an upcoming show. I didn't complain or anything (I wouldn't -- I know how live theatre is!), so I assume everyone got these offers.



I wonder if the OP was listening to the individual levels of the receivers and not the output on the board. I would have my monitor headphones changing from one output to the next before I tried the house speakers again... This almost makes me wonder if his board wasn't going bad. One of the sound boards I use has 2 channels that intermittently work. When they don't work I get a static sound. I haven't been able to find a repair guy who knows why I am getting the static. I was actually told that the reason the channels keep dying are because the board isn't used daily. I proceeded to ask why our 20 year old spare is in perfect working condition and that gets used (maybe) once a year. He didn't like that question.


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## waynehoskins (Oct 6, 2011)

This was definitely an RF problem, and at a major metro venue on a national tour at that. The venue was quick to point out in interviews that it was the tour's problem, not the venue's.

Presuming it wasn't RF hardware failure, which of course we can't entirely rule out from the outside, it sounds like lack of coordination. How could a tour come through Dallas and not work out the coordination?

Learning point for students: coordinate your RF. Your life will be so much easier after you do. In small towns you can often get away without it, but in big cities there are no vacant TV channels, not one, so you have to do your homework.


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## FACTplayers (Oct 6, 2011)

waynehoskins said:


> This was definitely an RF problem, and at a major metro venue on a national tour at that. The venue was quick to point out in interviews that it was the tour's problem, not the venue's.
> 
> Presuming it wasn't RF hardware failure, which of course we can't entirely rule out from the outside, it sounds like lack of coordination. How could a tour come through Dallas and not work out the coordination?
> 
> Learning point for students: coordinate your RF. Your life will be so much easier after you do. In small towns you can often get away without it, but in big cities there are no vacant TV channels, not one, so you have to do your homework.


 
I don't doubt you, but it's so hard to believe they would over look something so important as RF coordination. This is a huge learning experience, not only for students, but even those OPs who think they have it all figured out.


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## Tex (Oct 7, 2011)

FACTplayers said:


> I don't doubt you, but it's so hard to believe they would over look something so important as RF coordination. This is a huge learning experience, not only for students, but even those OPs who think they have it all figured out.


Our district fine arts programs did a show at this venue last May. 24 wireless mics and no feedback or interference in a three hour show. The tour didn't coordinate the mics. Maybe they thought that in lil' ol' Fort Worth they would be the only RF in town. You'd be surprised how many people think this is a small town and not part of one of the largest metropolitan areas in the country.


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## DrPinto (Oct 8, 2011)

This is my most spectacular sound meltdown:

I was running lights and sound for a show in a high school auditorium. The amps were behind stage, the mixers were at the rear of the house. We ran 2 mixers. My mixer connected to the house amps and all the stage mics via a snake. The other mixer was connected to mine via a 10 foot 1/4" snake. I sent all my inputs to the other mixer using split outs. The 2nd mixer was being used by the video people (they needed a different mix to go to tape). Before I plugged anything in, I checked each outlet with a circuit tester. Everything tested OK. I had a UPS on my board and my computer. What could possible go wrong? (Famous last words).

We were about 10 minutes into the dress rehearsal when suddenly a horribly loud BUZZ came over the house speakers. I immediately brought my master fader down, but it didn't make any difference. I had no idea at all what was happening. 

This buzz lasted all of about 5 LONG seconds, then it just stopped. I immediately noticed 2 things. My ups was beeping, indicating the power died, and there was smoke pouring out of the rear of the video crews mixer. A LOT of smoke. 

Due to the lack of space where we were working, I was unable to roll up into a ball and cry, so I decided I might as well try to figure out what just happened.

One of the students who was helping out with the production then told me that sometimes when someone steps on the metal plate that runs across the carpet to the outlets at the rear of the house, the circuit breaker trips. This has been going on like this for years! He tells me this now??? 

The best I can tell, someone stepped on the wire-way, the hot wire made contact with the ground, and 120 volts flowed through the ground wire going to the video sound mixer, melting the mixer's power cable, thus causing the smoke. From there the power came to my mixer via the 1/4" snake. From there it blew out the sound card in my computer, continued down the house snake, and took out one of the inputs into the house amp I was using.

I tried to learn from this experience, but I can't figure out what I could have done differently to have avoided this meltdown and the damage to my computer and the house sound system. Any ideas?


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## Lambda (Oct 8, 2011)

DrPinto said:


> I tried to learn from this experience, but I can't figure out what I could have done differently to have avoided this meltdown and the damage to my computer and the house sound system. Any ideas?



Yikes, what a story. A GFCI outlet or power strip would have prevented the whole fiasco. It would have tripped the instant that any current started to flow to ground.
But you have deeper problems, it seems. You guys ought to start by figuring out why the circuit shorts when somebody steps on that wire way.


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## DrPinto (Oct 8, 2011)

Lambda said:


> Yikes, what a story. A GFCI outlet or power strip would have prevented the whole fiasco. It would have tripped the instant that any current started to flow to ground.
> But you have deeper problems, it seems. You guys ought to start by figuring out why the circuit shorts when somebody steps on that wire way.


 
I'm not sure if a GFCI strip would have made any difference. When a GFCI trips, it would break the hot (black) wire, not the ground wire. There would still be 120 volts flowing into the mixer via the ground wire in the mixer's power cable. Am I wrong?


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## Lambda (Oct 8, 2011)

DrPinto said:


> I'm not sure if a GFCI strip would have made any difference. When a GFCI trips, it would break the hot (black) wire, not the ground wire. There would still be 120 volts flowing into the mixer via the ground wire in the mixer's power cable. Am I wrong?


 
It was my understanding that the hot shorted to the ground, and that's why there was 120v flowing through the ground wire. That short causes the GFCI to cut the hot. If you break the hot, then there's no more current on that ground wire. 
Unless stepping on the cable-way actually breaks the ground first and then connects it to the hot. That would be one impressive failure.


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## DuckJordan (Oct 8, 2011)

In response to the people who claimed that the tour hadn't done their frequency co-ordination, They did. they are in our venue right now. In their rider they requested a frequency check for open channels that the venue was required to perform and get back to the company about. Fort worth did not do what the rider requested. Not to mention how much crap we had to fix when they pulled in to our venue straight from fort worth. I don't know about their crew but feeding camlock connections in one strand at a time (after cutting the e-tape that was holding it together as a snake is B.S.) not to mention running the first electric soco in to the bottom of the box instead of starting with the 5th electric was a bunch of crap. 

This is a huge rant type issue, but It would be wise for people who don't know about a specific event or venue to not stick their noses in. (people like me who work in venues that touring shows come in may end up correcting you).

As far as mic issues go, everything has been working fine except for some minor issues tying their com system in to ours (our building is working with original old system clear com with no preamp for their newer setup). 

My thing with mics is if they sound bad mic'ed but sound good without it, no mic. Granted everyone from my high school was required to project into a 400 seat venue with not so great acoustics.


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## themuzicman (Oct 8, 2011)

I want to second most of what DuckJordan said...

Wizard of Oz has had some issues this latest tour out - being bumped down to one overstuffed truck and not travelling their own PA is the least of their problems. I got to see some of their rig when I was in prep for my show and am not surprised that they are having some issues. Changes were made, not enough tech time was given and they are having to make changes on the fly and on the road with a schedule almost entirely of one-nighters. It's a rough time for them. 

RF Coordination for tours is a beast, especially when you're a one man audio department. For my show I ran an IAS report that would give me RF that would work in 80% of my venues with no changes, had no intermods, and had enough space that I could use spare channels on the report to counter any issues in the remaining 20% of venues. If I was put into the position Wiz was put in to, I could say that it would probably be a little rough...just trying to defend the position they were put in to a little.


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## DuckJordan (Oct 8, 2011)

themuzicman said:


> I want to second most of what DuckJordan said...
> 
> Wizard of Oz has had some issues this latest tour out - being bumped down to one overstuffed truck...



Correction 2 overstuffed trucks (almost lost munchkin land)


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## themuzicman (Oct 9, 2011)

Oh wow! Two trucks is pretty cool then. The pack I saw looked tiny - though once you add in lighting and audio two seems more reasonable.


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## Les (Oct 9, 2011)

Yeah, me and the twin girls I was with (Yep!) felt very sorry for the sound guy/crew, regardless of what the issue was. 

I, being experienced with tech, didn't place blame on the venue or anyone for that matter. I just personally wished they had been turned off and left off. The girls (being non-technical) thought it was kinda funny. I, on the other hand could cut the tension with a knife. 

One thing that was purposeful that bugged me, though unrelated to sound, was their use of followspots. Every principle was followed, always. On top of that, the venue was hazed for some reason, so the beams from the spots were continually within my peripheral vision. That's more of a personal thing, but an interesting design choice none-the-less. 

To end on a lighter note, the cast didn't miss a beat during any of the sound problems, and their use of projections and scrim during the tornado scene was pretty awesome. The sound guy also apparently didn't leave the console to bang his head against a wall. I can't say that I have that much grace.


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## DuckJordan (Oct 9, 2011)

Forgot to mention he is no longer working with that company...(the sound guy that is) 

Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk


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## DrPinto (Oct 9, 2011)

Lambda said:


> It was my understanding that the hot shorted to the ground, and that's why there was 120v flowing through the ground wire. That short causes the GFCI to cut the hot. If you break the hot, then there's no more current on that ground wire.
> Unless stepping on the cable-way actually breaks the ground first and then connects it to the hot. That would be one impressive failure.


 
The power came from the wall, through a trough, and to a couple of outlet boxes. I was plugged into the outlet boxes. If the hot wire shorted to ground in the trough, even if I was using a GFCI and it tripped, the power would have kept flowing through the ground wire until the breaker in the house tripped. The trough looked like something in the picture only I think it was metal - it was hard to tell because it was covered with tape.


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## Lambda (Oct 9, 2011)

DrPinto said:


> The power came from the wall, through a trough, and to a couple of outlet boxes. I was plugged into the outlet boxes. If the hot wire shorted to ground in the trough, even if I was using a GCIF and it tripped, the power would have kept flowing through the ground wire until the breaker in the house tripped. The trough looked like something in the picture only I think it was metal - it was hard to tell because it was covered with tape.


 
Ah, so the short was _before_ the outlet. You're absolutely right, I think in that scenario the GFCI would have done nothing. The only thing that would have saved your mixer there would have been a crowbar circuit, a device that can detect faults like this and hard shorts the power until the breaker blows, ensuring the safety of equipment on the circuit. They're designed to protect against overvoltage, but one could be built to trigger on practically any condition, including a ground fault. But with the ground actually hot, and therefore no ground reference, I wonder if such a circuit would even work. 
A interesting failure indeed.


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## Chris15 (Oct 9, 2011)

This situation really does demonstrate why the best place for an RCD / GFCI is on the switchboard...

In that instance it would have tripped because there would have been a current flowing out the active that was not returning via the neutral...


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## Lambda (Oct 9, 2011)

Chris15 said:


> This situation really does demonstrate why the best place for an RCD / GFCI is on the switchboard...
> 
> In that instance it would have tripped because there would have been a current flowing out the active that was not returning via the neutral...


 
It may have tripped, but it would have disconnected the hot, right? Or does it disconnect the hot, neutral, and ground? With the current flowing through ground, then disconnecting only the hot wouldn't have done much.


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## DrPinto (Oct 9, 2011)

Lambda said:


> Ah, so the short was _before_ the outlet.



Exactly.

I was wondering if there was anything I could do to protect my system if this happened in the future. I could use a power strip with a diode in the ground line (if they even make something like this). That would have worked.

Those 5 seconds it took for the breaker to trip could have been much messier. All my microphones were wired. I was also using a direct box on a guitar. I hate to think what could have happened if someone was holding a microphone or playing the guitar at the time.


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## Chris15 (Oct 11, 2011)

Lambda said:


> It may have tripped, but it would have disconnected the hot, right? Or does it disconnect the hot, neutral, and ground? With the current flowing through ground, then disconnecting only the hot wouldn't have done much.


 
There has to be an active somewhere that's shorting out to ground. The RCD on THAT active tripping is what would have killed the power.
RCDs will kill Active and Neutral.

ANY device that interrupts an Earth connection is likely to be illegal and in all but a handful of circumstances is unwise.

DrPinto, how do you envisage this diode functioning?


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## DrPinto (Oct 14, 2011)

Chris15 said:


> There has to be an active somewhere that's shorting out to ground. The RCD on THAT active tripping is what would have killed the power.
> RCDs will kill Active and Neutral.
> 
> ANY device that interrupts an Earth connection is likely to be illegal and in all but a handful of circumstances is unwise.
> ...



If there was a diode in the ground line of my power strip that only allowed current to flow INTO the wall outlet and not FROM the wall outlet, no damage would have occurred. Am I correct?


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## Chris15 (Oct 14, 2011)

No, because you are dealing with AC power


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## DrPinto (Oct 14, 2011)

Chris15 said:


> No, because you are dealing with AC power



Whoops. I believe you're correct. That's what I get for spending too much time working on 12 volt auto electrical systems.


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## museav (Oct 15, 2011)

DuckJordan said:


> In response to the people who claimed that the tour hadn't done their frequency co-ordination, They did. they are in our venue right now. In their rider they requested a frequency check for open channels that the venue was required to perform and get back to the company about. Fort worth did not do what the rider requested.


Totally understand your point and the difficult situation such shows face. However, not being directly involved I also have a different perspective on some points.

Do you know for a fact that the folks at Fort Worth did not provide the requested information? I have to ask because you state they did not but you also state that the tour did perform a frequency coordination. That suggests that either the tour did receive the information as requested, obtained it another way or chose to perform a frequency coordination without that information, all of which seem to place the responsibility on them. And regardless of whether they were provided the requested information or not, if the tour handled the frequency coordination then the responsibility for the results of that would be theirs. So would the responsibility of verifying the wireless systems worked properly before the performance started.

No idea of it might be relevant to this situation but I have seen a situation where there was a nearby transmitter that operated only intermittently and thus did not affect routine scans or rehearsals, but inevitably affected the shows (this was a traveling Cirque show and it initially caught even them off guard). However, once the problem was obvious then why apparently continue to do bring up the mics and expect a different result? Even if it was a matter of thinking they had it fixed, have people forgotten how to use PFL and monitor sources before putting them out to the audience?


DuckJordan said:


> This is a huge rant type issue, but It would be wise for people who don't know about a specific event or venue to not stick their noses in. (people like me who work in venues that touring shows come in may end up correcting you).


A return rant. A paying audience member, who was at the performance, offers their experience of the performance and you, who apparently were not there, tell them they are wrong and accuse them of sticking their nose where it doesn't belong. I think you may be venting some frustration you have related to the situation but when someone is presenting the perspective of a patron both the venues and productions should probably listen rather than tell them they are wrong and that it's none of their business.


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## Tex (Oct 15, 2011)

DuckJordan said:


> This is a huge rant type issue, but It would be wise for people who don't know about a specific event or venue to not stick their noses in. (people like me who work in venues that touring shows come in may end up correcting you).


I am quite familiar with the venue and have done frequency coordination with wireless mics there. The information needed is easily obtained. The staff at Bass Hall are not the only people who have it...


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## DuckJordan (Oct 15, 2011)

Tex said:


> I am quite familiar with the venue and have done frequency coordination with wireless mics there. The information needed is easily obtained. The staff at Bass Hall are not the only people who have it...


 

The issue was it was asked, and never given. He could have persuade it more but that's probably partly why the original sound tech was removed from the production.


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## waynehoskins (Oct 15, 2011)

DuckJordan said:


> The issue was it was asked, and never given. He could have persuade it more but that's probably partly why the original sound tech was removed from the production.


 
I will note that in the Dallas DMA, there are no vacant channels other than a guard channel each side of the public safety allocation at the bottom of the band. If I were a venue, I couldn't produce a list of vacant channels, because they don't exist.

The necessary coordination information is readily obtained from the FCC database or various web apps like Sennheiser's in less than a minute, and can be plugged into various programs like SIFM in well under an hour, even before the tour arrives at the venue.

If I were an engineer on a tour, I would be hesitant to blame the venue, since coordination would ultimately be my responsibility. Local insight can help and might speed the process, but its presence or absence wouldn't make it any less my problem.


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## FACTplayers (Oct 15, 2011)

waynehoskins said:


> I will note that in the Dallas DMA, there are no vacant channels other than a guard channel each side of the public safety allocation at the bottom of the band. If I were a venue, I couldn't produce a list of vacant channels, because they don't exist.
> 
> The necessary coordination information is readily obtained from the FCC database or various web apps like Sennheiser's in less than a minute, and can be plugged into various programs like SIFM in well under an hour, even before the tour arrives at the venue.
> 
> If I were an engineer on a tour, I would be hesitant to blame the venue, since coordination would ultimately be my responsibility. Local insight can help and might speed the process, but its presence or absence wouldn't make it any less my problem.


 

Great post! I have never understood why people love to pass the buck in theatre. In the few (small) companies I have worked with, everyone debates over the fine lines of whose job is whose and they are unwilling to help each other out. It's just sad. I've always taken the approach to just get the job done and done well. If it were my job to coordinate the frequencies, I would have no one else to blame other than myself. 

I also wonder what kind of set up they had? Has anyone used the Shure Axient system?


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## shiben (Oct 15, 2011)

soundoff said:


> Hey just wanted to get your opinons on an operating procedure. A couple months ago I was mixing sound for a musical with a large live pit and 16 channels of wireless mics, with lots of swaps to make sure everyone with a speaking line was on mic. The absolute lead of the show had her mic go down right before a large musical number due to an accidental frequency change (i stupidly didnt lock out the front buttons on the mic) When I soloed her channel and got nothing, but full RF onthe reciever I realized it was deeper than batt issues.
> 
> So what i decided to do was kill every wireless and switch to the 6 zone overhead mic array, which provided less than steller quality sound, but i followed the dialogue around the stage to have the lowest noise floor i could so i could really jack it.
> 
> ...


 
Im seriously too lazy to read through 3 pages of responses, but what I would have done is send a hand on with the backup hand-held wireless, or make a toss (preferably not) or something. Perhaps its just that in all the situations I have worked on this is fairly acceptable... Honestly, if it was one scene, sounds like you made a pretty decent cover with what you had. 


DrPinto said:


> We all make mistakes. It's not a matter of "if", it's a matter of "when". Some mistakes are more spectacular than others. Don't beat yourself up over it. It was just your turn.
> 
> When you put together actors, musicians, lights, sound, and scenery that all have to work together, it's bound to screw up sometimes.


 
Quite frankly, whenever I work on a show Im amazed it doesnt happen a TON more often, and I think that this is a tribute to how hard working and professional we as an industry are/have become. If you really think about what needs to happen for a cirque show or a big broadway musical to go off without an apparent hitch every night for months on end, one really has to respect the people who do it and the planning and effort that come before hand. Also, quite a bit comes down to people like the OP who find a problem, and thinking on their feet and having never seen the issue before, find a solution. Might not be something thats new to everyone, but everyone will have a problem they have never dealt with before, most likely during a show.


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## Blacksheep0317 (Oct 16, 2011)

waynehoskins said:


> This was definitely an RF problem, and at a major metro venue on a national tour at that. The venue was quick to point out in interviews that it was the tour's problem, not the venue's.
> 
> Presuming it wasn't RF hardware failure, which of course we can't entirely rule out from the outside, it sounds like lack of coordination. How could a tour come through Dallas and not work out the coordination?
> 
> Learning point for students: coordinate your RF. Your life will be so much easier after you do. In small towns you can often get away without it, but in big cities there are no vacant TV channels, not one, so you have to do your homework.


 
As a house engineer in a venue that is three blocks from one of the largest radio transmitters on the east coast, broadcasting cell phone, radio, television, and emergency radios...im well versed in the woes of RF. I actually used to do a free outdoor show basically directly under the thing for a couple years to. Chaos my friends, chaos. Check RF often an every chance you get. What may have been clear during sound check suddenly becomes awful come curtain. Its amazing what alittle atmospheric change can do. Perfect example. Any "nice" guitar cab in my home venue, will scream the local country station during summer sound checks, and typically have an annoying amount of a Canadian rock station come show. In winter, I get a FM catholic station at sound check and a different country station louder during show.

Wireless mics? Its a battle to say the least sometimes. Just make sure you stay on it guys and it can be fairly manageable. Shure has done an awesome job with their softwares and databases to help make things easier as well.


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