# Replacement Makeup Room Lights



## Chris Chapman (Jan 11, 2011)

Our Makeup Room has the standard sets of soft incandescent lights set up around each mirror. Our energy teams wants me to replace these with CFL's. (The other point I'm making at a meeting today is that these lamps aren't on very long. Over the course of a year, they might get 80 hours of burn time.)

Of course, all of my stage light is incandescent, so I'm trying to educate them on why the change to CFL in this application is not the best.

The color temp is all wrong, and trying to do corrective makeup under CFL's and then moving to Incandescent is... problematic. Also, staring into the CFL's, with their associated reflections in Makeup seems to give some folks headaches. (Literal ones, not the figurative one that I'm running into.)

Any hints on other info I might be able to pass on to these folks to get them to put my incandescents back?


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## Dionysus (Jan 11, 2011)

Chris Chapman said:


> Our Makeup Room has the standard sets of soft incandescent lights set up around each mirror. Our energy teams wants me to replace these with CFL's. (The other point I'm making at a meeting today is that these lamps aren't on very long. Over the course of a year, they might get 80 hours of burn time.)
> 
> Of course, all of my stage light is incandescent, so I'm trying to educate them on why the change to CFL in this application is not the best.
> 
> ...


 
I agree that CFLs are not the best solution for makeup lights. The light quality, well it sucks; that and the light is just different. Many people get headeaches for various reasons from fluorescent lighting (I am one), one of the main reasons I always hated math in all the rooms but one (the one has a skylight).

LEDs can be had that have a much more comparable light, are more energy efficient than CFLs, however they are also quite expensive still. Also the light from the "a socket" incandescent replacements generally tend to be extremely spotted.
Perhaps a little research may find something that may work, or a complete rethink on the lighting around the makeup mirrors.

With Flourescent TUBE fixtures you can get gels that go around the tubes to do colour correction.

OR you can just keep the incandescents, or use a mix.


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## MNicolai (Jan 11, 2011)

Which wattage are the existing lamps?

Our building was stocked for 100w bulbs at the mirrors but we found that to be seriously overkill. Any chance you can please the powers that be by lowering the wattages? Or by just slapping them across their faces and pointing out how negligible your dressing rooms are on the building's overall electrical use?


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## Edrick (Jan 11, 2011)

I just recently saw a few studies that prove that CFLs cause dirty power and induce headaches and other medical issues because of the EMF caused by them.


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## WooferHound (Jan 11, 2011)

In my bathroom at home I use a mix of incandescents and warm colored CFL bulbs. This really works good with instant-on and good quality color rendition. The energy savings will only be half by doing this.


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## mstaylor (Jan 11, 2011)

I use incandescents in my house and will continue as long as possible. I will not use CFLs, I will spend the extra and go LED if regular bulbs become unavailable. I would try showing the savings is too small to make a difference because they aren't on very often. 
See if you have records reflecting how many bulbs have been replaced the previous year. With a math you should be able to figure kilowatts used per year. Then apply the killowatt usage to the CFLs and you should find the savings very small. Add to that the incorrect color for makeup and see where it gets you. You may be banging your head on the wall but it's worth a shot.


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## techieman33 (Jan 11, 2011)

mstaylor said:


> I use incandescents in my house and will continue as long as possible. I will not use CFLs, I will spend the extra and go LED if regular bulbs become unavailable. I would try showing the savings is too small to make a difference because they aren't on very often.
> See if you have records reflecting how many bulbs have been replaced the previous year. With a math you should be able to figure kilowatts used per year. Then apply the killowatt usage to the CFLs and you should find the savings very small. Add to that the incorrect color for makeup and see where it gets you. You may be banging your head on the wall but it's worth a shot.


 
Don't forget the huge upfront cost for the CFLs too. For what little they are used it would take an long time for them to pay for themselves if ever.


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## Les (Jan 12, 2011)

I have no real qualms with CFL's in utility settings, but they are crazy for wanting you to put them in dressing rooms. Not only is the color usually different from what you need, but the entire wavelength is wrong. Just keep some spare incandescents on hand and swap them out before you leave every night if worse comes to worse  .


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## cpf (Jan 12, 2011)

...And don't forget that the Walmart 15-pack econo-brand CFLs will most likely fail more quickly than the incandescent they're replacing, especially in your situation. Plus, I've had (cheap) CFLs light on fire in their sockets, it's kind of concerning. 

CFLs are fine for general use in moderate temperatures where light volume is more important than light quality, but they're not ready for a full incandescent replacement.


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## ship (Jan 12, 2011)

CFL's while you can dial down the color temperature, you cannot dial up yet the CRI for matching what it will be under stage lighting. (If Derik hasn't done so yet, he should do the link to CRI for the other concept in them.) CFL's at this point don't match up to the CRI of modern stage lighting sufficiently in why it's not yet possible. Nor do LED's.

Your 100w lamps seem a bit high in wattage - way high assuming a standard 6" on center. Like 40w at best I would guess if not 25w would be the norm.

After you lamp way down, look into a company called Aero-Tech for distributers or direct sales. Can't beat a 20,000 hour incandescet lamp for 100% CRI and energy efficiency. This even if still a heater lamp for concept. Present the above lamp for a concept in much less wattage and you no doubt will have a winner for compromise. Lamps are not that expensive either.


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## seanandkate (Nov 4, 2014)

Can anyone give me a lead on a distributer (ideally Canadian) for light fixtures for makeup mirrors? This kind of thing:




Looking to replace a bunch of old dead candelabra base bulb fixtures with something a little more durable for high school use.


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## FMEng (Nov 5, 2014)

What your picture shows is a string of lights built on site by an electrician. It uses EMT conduit, 4-0 boxes, and common, Leviton porcelain lamp sockets. Any decent, commercial electrician can do that.


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## Robert (Nov 5, 2014)

I think current code requirements would have you put metal cages around each light or each section if you change them.


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## ElGusto (Nov 5, 2014)

For this type of application why is no one talking about LED lamps? Better quality light and lower power consumption than CFLs. Yeah, its a big up front investment., but you probably wont have to worry about them until they become obsolete.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Nov 5, 2014)

Robert said:


> I think current code requirements would have you put metal cages around each light or each section if you change them.


That is a National Electric Code requirement but the photo is Canada, so not sure. That requirement is not particularily new.


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## garyvp (Nov 5, 2014)

Chris Chapman said:


> Our Makeup Room has the standard sets of soft incandescent lights set up around each mirror. Our energy teams wants me to replace these with CFL's. (The other point I'm making at a meeting today is that these lamps aren't on very long. Over the course of a year, they might get 80 hours of burn time.)
> 
> Of course, all of my stage light is incandescent, so I'm trying to educate them on why the change to CFL in this application is not the best.
> 
> ...




Our DR is 50 year old with porcelain Edison sockets and 15 watt incandescent soft lamps. The actors love them. And we can still find the bulbs. No way they go for CFLs. If we change we'll probably go with LEDs a.s you can get good color. I also agree that the cost is not that much we do 90 performances a year - about 300 hours. Burn up about 10 bulbs a year. 
I have also been disappointed with the longevity of the CFLs we use in hallways and such. 


If fddfdfd


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## AlexDonkle (Nov 5, 2014)

garyvp said:


> Our DR is 50 year old with porcelain Edison sockets and 15 watt incandescent soft lamps. The actors love them. And we can still find the bulbs. No way they go for CFLs. If we change we'll probably go with LEDs a.s you can get good color. I also agree that the cost is not that much we do 90 performances a year - about 300 hours. Burn up about 10 bulbs a year.
> I have also been disappointed with the longevity of the CFLs we use in hallways and such.



Just a note that if you ever have trouble finding incandescents, "rough service" lamps are still allowed and are except from the energy efficiency laws. They're designed for construction sites, coal mines, etc. so they have stronger than typical glass and internal filaments, more tolerant to voltage fluctuation, and they generally last much longer than standard incandescents ever did.


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## venuetech (Nov 6, 2014)

seanandkate said:


> Can anyone give me a lead on a distributer (ideally Canadian) for light fixtures for makeup mirrors? This kind of thing:
> 
> 
> 
> Looking to replace a bunch of old dead candelabra base bulb fixtures with something a little more durable for high school use.



the other thing that i am not seeing in this photo is that the outlets should be switched and have some sort of indicator.


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## gafftaper (Nov 6, 2014)

I recently upgraded my dressingroom lights to LED. The old fixtures were 60 watt round globes. Far too yellow in color temperature for stage makeup and the dressing room quickly reached over 80 degrees with them on. The replacements I found cost $5 each, cut the energy consumption to 8.5 watts, jacked the color temperature up to 3,000K, and the room is cool and comfortable. It cost me $350 to do it, but I am so happy that I did the upgrade.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Nov 6, 2014)

venuetech said:


> the other thing that i am not seeing in this photo is that the outlets should be switched and have some sort of indicator.


Thew pilot light for the receptacles should be in the corridor outside the dressing room. We usually put the switch for a bank of relays next to the entrance door.


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## seanandkate (Nov 6, 2014)

Maybe I just picked the wrong picture. I'm looking for a row of edison base sockets that I can fill with whatever (the thread sounds like an LED solution might be promising). The biggest problem is that the board of ed and their electricians aren't much in the initiative department. The want to know what make and model of fixture to order from whom. Custom jobs are NOT their forte. So the question that they are asking me, that I am attempting to answer is "What should I order from where?"


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## MNicolai (Nov 6, 2014)

As for a fixture, the only one I know a model and make of is Starfire's TechTrac series. Scroll to the bottom of their spec sheet and they've got the wire guards even.

For lamps, take a look at TCP's cold cathode offerings -- specifically in the 2700K color temp range. Former colleague of mine did extensive testing and research before upgrading all of his house lights, decor lighting, stage LED lighting, and makeup mirror lighting. He was very impressed by the cold cathode lamps on the market and redid all of the lighting in his theater's several dressing rooms with cold cathodes. I can't recall if his cold cathode lamps were from TCP or not, but I'm seeing TCP all over the place lately in theater's that are redoing their house lights. I'd recommend buying a handful and giving them a try.


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## STEVETERRY (Nov 7, 2014)

Robert said:


> I think current code requirements would have you put metal cages around each light or each section if you change them.



That is correct. From the 2014 NEC:

520.72 Lamp Guards. All exposed incandescent lamps in
dressing rooms, where less than 2.5 m (8 ft) from the floor,
shall be equipped with open-end guards riveted to the outlet
box cover or otherwise sealed or locked in place.

However, the _shockingly_ antiquated Canadian Electrical Code section 44 (Theatre Installations) contains no such requirement.

Just FYI, there is a Public Input proposal for the 2017 NEC to remove the word "incandescent" from 520.72. The substantiation for this points out that all types of lamps in this application need physical protection from the diabolical dressing room actions of performers. 

ST


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## BillConnerFASTC (Nov 7, 2014)

STEVETERRY said:


> That is correct. From the 2014 NEC:
> 
> 520.72 Lamp Guards. All exposed incandescent lamps in
> dressing rooms, where less than 2.5 m (8 ft) from the floor,
> ...



What happens if somehow you do break an LED retrofit lamp? And would this apply to LED lighting that was designed that way - like a piece of LED tape? IMHO requiring a cage around a piece of LED tape is unnecessary and silly. I'm glad there are a few people on the committee that have at least been in a dressing room.

PS - Makes me wonder if the NEC will require a piece of glass or screen under recessed LED downlights.


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## STEVETERRY (Nov 7, 2014)

BillConnerASTC said:


> What happens if somehow you do break an LED retrofit lamp? And would this apply to LED lighting that was designed that way - like a piece of LED tape? IMHO requiring a cage around a piece of LED tape is unnecessary and silly. I'm glad there are a few people on the committee that have at least been in a dressing room.
> 
> PS - Makes me wonder if the NEC will require a piece of glass or screen under recessed LED downlights.




The underlying issue with this requirement is "exposed lamps" that invite performers to hang stuff from them or their fixtures. It's a fire hazard with incandescent, but also a shock hazard with unprotected CFL or LED "lamps". I don't think any AHJ would characterize LED tape as a "lamp".

ST


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## BillConnerFASTC (Nov 7, 2014)

STEVETERRY said:


> The underlying issue with this requirement is "exposed lamps" that invite performers to hang stuff from them or their fixtures. It's a fire hazard with incandescent, but also a shock hazard with unprotected CFL or LED "lamps". I don't think any AHJ would characterize LED tape as a "lamp".
> 
> ST



Since I get asked how do they relamp LED fixtures, I'm not sure we'll be so lucky.


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## StradivariusBone (Nov 7, 2014)

BillConnerASTC said:


> Thew pilot light for the receptacles should be in the corridor outside the dressing room. We usually put the switch for a bank of relays next to the entrance door.



I've heard this requirement before, but never fully understood it. Our's are all switched. Though I don't spend too much time in front of a makeup mirror. What do they plug in around these things that'd merit a contactor?


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## JD (Nov 7, 2014)

For example, the popular Cree lamps use a long chain of LEDs running off a 207 volt supply. The pumper circuit that powers them is tied directly to the line, so a physically broken lamp has even more zap potential if you touch it then a regular broken 120 volt incandescent if the supply survives the break. 
LED tape lights usually run at a low voltage with an external step-down power supply, so I suspect they would not be a problem.


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## Ford (Nov 7, 2014)

Interesting that this dovetails with PLASA trying to finalize a new standard for makeup lighting.
The Standard includes minimum illumination levels, Color rendition (they mention a minimum CRI of 85), distribution and uniformity, Correlated Color Temp, and maximum illumination (so you don't melt your performers...I guess). Anyway, the committee will be meeting at LDI.


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## derekleffew (Nov 7, 2014)

StradivariusBone said:


> ... Though I don't spend too much time in front of a makeup mirror. What do they plug in around these things that'd merit a contactor?


Curling irons, hot rollers, blow dryers, steamers, coffee pots, hot plates, any of a variety of appliances just waiting to burn down the theatre un-watched and un-attended. Thus the requirement of NEC 520.73:

> Each switch controlling receptacles adjacent to the mirror(s) and above the dressing room counter(s) shall be provided with a pilot light located outside the dressing room, adjacent to the door to indicate when the receptacles are energized.


Thus the person in charge of locking up for the night can easily verify that all counter-top appliances in the dressing room are off, without having to enter the space. Makes good sense, but is probably one of the most-violated portions of the NEC as it pertains to performance spaces.


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## AlexDonkle (Nov 7, 2014)

derekleffew said:


> Thus the person in charge of locking up for the night can easily verify that all counter-top appliances in the dressing room are off, without having to enter the space. Makes good sense, but is probably one of the most-violated portions of the NEC as it pertains to performance spaces.



What's strange is that there isn't an exception to the pilot light rule where 2-way switches are used in the hallway (i.e. up is always "on" and down is always "off")


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## BillConnerFASTC (Nov 7, 2014)

AlexDonkle said:


> What's strange is that there isn't an exception to the pilot light rule where 2-way switches are used in the hallway (i.e. up is always "on" and down is always "off")



IIRC, it use to be poorly written and the switch ended up in the hall, not at all desirable in an educational institution IMHO. Switch in the dressing room, pilot lit in the corridor or space outside so a night watchman or whomever is informed if that small appliance circuit(s) is on. b You don't have to use a contactor but we recommend a 20 amp circuit for every two stations so a chorus room could have a lot of circuits and a contactor or relays just make sense.

But this does point up that the concern always has been fire and not electrical shock. Given the choice of guarded incandescent or unguarded LED, I'd say the LED is safer, and I'd rather that regulations did nothing to discourage it. I'd especially argue that inherently LED lighting - not retro fit l;amps in medium screw base lamp holders - don't justify guards. Wouldn't surprise me if the guard thing started with gas lights.


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## AlexDonkle (Nov 10, 2014)

BillConnerASTC said:


> IIRC, it use to be poorly written and the switch ended up in the hall, not at all desirable in an educational institution IMHO. Switch in the dressing room, pilot lit in the corridor or space outside so a night watchman or whomever is informed if that small appliance circuit(s) is on. b You don't have to use a contactor but we recommend a 20 amp circuit for every two stations so a chorus room could have a lot of circuits and a contactor or relays just make sense.
> 
> But this does point up that the concern always has been fire and not electrical shock. Given the choice of guarded incandescent or unguarded LED, I'd say the LED is safer, and I'd rather that regulations did nothing to discourage it. I'd especially argue that inherently LED lighting - not retro fit l;amps in medium screw base lamp holders - don't justify guards. Wouldn't surprise me if the guard thing started with gas lights.



I've worked in a theatre with hallway mounted switches and it wasn't an issue, but it wasn't a school and it certainly could have been. Peoples tendency to play with things they shouldn't seems to be amplified in theatres. 

Does anyone know if the new PLASA standard on dressing room lighting may attempt to address this or provide guidelines on selecting LED strips? Protocol had an interesting article on the subject of dressing room lights and briefly touched on CRI vs CQS ratings, but didn't delve too much into details or any specific products.


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## Roger L. Lattin (Dec 14, 2014)

You can get Kino Flo CFLs in both 3200K and 5500K a little pricy but very good quality lamps. Maybe the NEC should put the actors in cages, it would solve many other safety issues!!!


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## ship (Dec 15, 2014)

Talent can and might hang even flammable things like fake feathers or what ever off lamps they find as per a hanger - thus the guards. Don’t take long to go up in flames in being a good policy for at least the cages around lamps. If wet clothing, perhaps it in drip/weap potential is still a good thing to keep around no matter the lamp in use. Didn't read into discussion of dressing room in use indicator lights... policy at the end of the night is to ensure everyone is out. This I would think separate from a problem caused before or during a show.

Understand the minimum CRI of 85% = in other words 85% of the light out of this lamp is B+ for what you will see on stage in doing your makeup.... no problem, this except LED fixtures are only somewhat rated on the CRI scale. They do not really fit this CRI scale in the same way a florescent does. So how is some professional body of theater going to rate makeup room lamps on a unprofessional scale?
Just adding to discussion with some thoughts.


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## Ford (Dec 15, 2014)

Hey Ship,

Both Flouries and LEDs are narrow band emitters. At Cornell University, the facilities department slipped in one night, and changed all of the lamps (bulbs) in the costume shop out with "full spectrum fluorescents" as a part of the Green Initiative. they refused to believe that the lights were inferior for color rendition, as the lamp manufacturer stated that the CRI was 90+ (and they spent a lot of money on the fancy-schmancy bulbs).

It was not until the head of facilities for the entire university was tasked with coming down, and comparing fabrics under different light sources with his own eyes (we showed him fabrics that looked the same under fluorescent light, but quite different in sunlight near the window) that they agreed to at least a partial reprieve for the Costume shop lighting. 

Unfortunately, balancing your spectral emissions to line up with the test color-swatches for CRI is pretty easy... and a high CRI does not mean a natural looking light.

The IES has already said that CRI is not an adequate measure for LEDs, and is currently deciding what might be. CQS is in the discussion, but far from a foregone conclusion...

so... there is no easy answer. If the PLASA team required CQS, they would be SOL, as very few lightbulb manufacturers measure or advertise this. they all print CRI on the box, so this is at least something. However flawed it may be, it is at least some measure. 

I suspect that in the next year or so, the IES will decide on a recommendation, then lamp manufacturers will start printing this measure on the boxes (so that architects and large institutions will buy their products), and then the rest of us will follow suit.


ship said:


> Understand the minimum CRI of 85% = in other words 85% of the light out of this lamp is B+ for what you will see on stage in doing your makeup.... no problem, this except LED fixtures are only somewhat rated on the CRI scale. They do not really fit this CRI scale in the same way a florescent does. So how is some professional body of theater going to rate makeup room lamps on a unprofessional scale?
> Just adding to discussion with some thoughts.


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## ship (Dec 16, 2014)

ah thanks I thought I remember something about that and didn't read back far enough into the post.


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## tjrobb (Dec 16, 2014)

I thought some better - built LED units were roughly continuous spectrum, save a spike or two? (Thinking Philips here)


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## Ford (Dec 17, 2014)

Depending on the mix of the phosphors, you may have a spectrum which appears fairly full. However, even among the best brands (Cree, Osram, Philips) you will see spectrum which does not match natural light. They tend to be heavily tilted toward blue, with spikes in the red and green. There is some overlap in the bottom of the spikes (so it is not completely discontinuous), but without very careful selection, it is easy to end up with something that does not react to color the way that you expect it to. One way to minimize this is to use multiple sources (even from the same Bin), as the small variations will actually help to widen the spikes. The LED manufacturers are also developing new phosphor mixes to help with this... which can be a tradeoff, as they sometimes trade color for efficiency... And efficiency has been the initial quest in LED lighting. so you can get a white that on some surfaces looks natural. However, if you look at the spectral distribution, you will still see that the ratio of colors (relative to each other) does not match either sunlight or incandescent, even if the final mixed color looks similar...

I hope that helped answer your question, and didn't just make people more confused...

-Ford


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## sk8rsdad (Dec 17, 2014)

For more reading, Mike Wood has some excellent articles on color rendering and LED technology.

Color Rendering - Where are we?
How do white LEDs work?


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## NevilleLighting (Dec 22, 2014)

Although the incandescent has better color rendering than the other two choices I find that the color temp is way redder than what we see in stage lights now. Your average 60w bulb has a color temp around 2600-2700 K while our stage lamps run at 3200K (when full). I work at a state college and a few years ago our bulbs were switched to nasty CFL's, the ones with a nasty blue color. No discussion was ever had with us about the matter, just happened over the summer. After calming down our make-up instructor I managed to get maintenance to relent and switch half to warm white. The resulting color was okay and the temperature in the make-up room is about 20 degrees cooler. Since the. I have gone back and installed a pair of incandescents on each mirror, about eye eleven, one on each side. That seems to be a solution that worked for everyone. Well, at least no one has come to me to bitch about it.


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## robartsd (Dec 23, 2014)

NevilleLighting said:


> Although the incandescent has better color rendering than the other two choices I find that the color temp is way redder than what we see in stage lights now. Your average 60w bulb has a color temp around 2600-2700 K while our stage lamps run at 3200K (when full). I work at a state college and a few years ago our bulbs were switched to nasty CFL's, the ones with a nasty blue color. No discussion was ever had with us about the matter, just happened over the summer. After calming down our make-up instructor I managed to get maintenance to relent and switch half to warm white. The resulting color was okay and the temperature in the make-up room is about 20 degrees cooler. Since the. I have gone back and installed a pair of incandescents on each mirror, about eye eleven, one on each side. That seems to be a solution that worked for everyone. Well, at least no one has come to me to bitch about it.


This sounds like a clever solution - mixing different CFLs in a strip to get a better aggregate color rendering. I bet it looks rather attrocious; but if it works, it works.


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