# Outside Groups



## TNasty (Apr 18, 2017)

Hey all,
I'm sure most of you have dealt with this issue many times before...

*Outside Performance Groups*

_*Dun dun dunnn*_

How do you all typically handle guest groups, especially those with guest technicians?

I've had a fair share in my past couple years of technical work (mostly consisting of dance groups), some groups are a pleasure to work with, others... not so much.

I'd love to hear your tips on handling outside groups, and what some of the best (and worst) groups you've hosted were like.

Some of my tips are to keep the booth spick-and-spam for at least the first day, avoid graphic Tees, and always greet the person responsible for the group with a genuine smile and firm handshake. Nothing's worse than a weak handshake.


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## Footer (Apr 18, 2017)

Avoid graphic T's? Never met a road crew where at least half of them weren't wearing graphic T's....

99.99% of the events I do are an outside group performing something they have produced offsite. We do no in house producing of original work. Some are presented by us, others are outside promoters, and even more are corporate events that can either have a professional event planner to having a 3rd tier secretary advancing. 

It really comes down to how your contract was written. Are they renting the stage with technical assistance or are they renting the venue bumper to bumper? Is the show coming in a professional company or community? Is the show being presented by an in house presenter? All of those factor into how we deal with outside groups. In general, if you are paying for the day you can do whatever you want as long as time allows and you don't destroy anything. We'll let anyone who tries hard enough destroy their own show if they want to. We'll also help them put on the best show possible and guide them through the process. Really depends on what the client wants...


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## TNasty (Apr 18, 2017)

@Footer, the graphic tee thing is more of a first day deal for me, since that's usually when I first meet the people in charge of the group, and I'd prefer to come off as professional instead of casual to them.

Since I'm currently a High School student, I don't really have a formal contract that involves me, nor do I get to see any building and grounds rental contracts. If it's something I'm doing for free (such as a presentation, or anything where I just need to make sure they get a working microphone), I'll just wear something casual. But when it's something paid, such as this pro group I'll be dealing with this weekend, "Groove Dance", who run a three day long dance competition and are on a cross-country tour, I try to make a decent attempt to look like I care.

To sum it all up, I usually only know that a client will want certain things (projector, a wireless handheld mic, etc...) until I meet them the day of.


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## josh88 (Apr 18, 2017)

TNasty said:


> Since I'm currently a High School student, I don't really have a formal contract that involves me, nor do I get to see any building and grounds rental contracts. If it's something I'm doing for free (such as a presentation, or anything where I just need to make sure they get a working microphone), I'll just wear something casual. But when it's something paid, such as this pro group I'll be dealing with this weekend, "Groove Dance", who run a three day long dance competition and are on a cross-country tour, I try to make a decent attempt to look like I care.


Just because you haven't seen it doesnt mean there isn't a contract though and if you're getting paid its likely you're a PART of that contract. When I have had students work for me for a company I didn't show them the contract but would give them "it spells out A, B, and C" so that they aren't going in blind and know what the group would be expecting of them and the facility. If you're the one working without faculty involved, you're the representative for the school, which is a bunch of weight and should have someone's contact should something go wrong or they start pushing for things that weren't agreed upon. Any group paying for the space should have someone who has an idea of what they asked for. Some people spend a load and its a drop in the bucket, some are community groups, Ymca productions, or local dance schools who scraped the money together. Both scenarios can be rough because the folks with money will often expect a lot and higher quality because they paid for it, and the smaller groups will still expect the same because often what they paid is a huge amount of money for them too and these shows bring in a decent chunk of their operating budgets, therefore making it more tense or stressful for them. 

That being said, my wife rents theatres for all of her shows and one school stipulates a paid student will run the lights and as a whole the girl they have shows up pretty clueless, though she's used to my wifes group and knows from experience what to expect now.

TLDR: you're on the right track. If you're the schools "guy" try to find out as much as you can in advance and know when to not let a group ask you for more than a contract stipulated, just because they had an idea last minute. I'm glad to be mostly out of that world, I had one recurring group that I started refusing to work with unless they paid an additional $10 an hour "hazard pay" on top of my normal rate.


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## TNasty (Apr 19, 2017)

@josh88, here's something you might be able to figure out.

So here's an interesting predicament that's going on right now.

So the dance group that's coming in this weekend doesn't want to pay for anybody, since "they have their own lighting designer". There's several issues with this. First, all groups are being instructed to not touch the lights, as they have been set to accommodate all groups and classes for the remainder of the year. Second, the group had messed with the system (both sound and light) when we hosted them just a couple weeks ago, which resulted in several hours of troubleshooting and reconfiguring on the school's end. Third of all, props and utilities backstage have gone missing or broken (from them, and other groups. One time they tore our cyc curtain, and they simply refused to pay for repairs or a replacement).

The school's activities coordinator is completely on board with getting the group to pay for one of the school's technicians to be an attendant and make sure they don't mess anything up, but the dance group simply isn't. The coordinator is even trying to make the group understand that this is a fee associated with renting the space and using the equipment, even if they don't need the school to supply somebody to operate the equipment.

I'm not saying that the group is being a big hassle to work with, but when their technicians don't listen to the host technicians (and supervisors), it seems like they need somebody to keep a close eye on them. And we're not talking a 2-3 hour event that I wouldn't mind sitting through for free while I do my homework, it's three days long- it only makes sense that if you messed something up, that you should pay for the 40 hours of supervision.

What should the school do regarding this? These guys are on a national tour, and they've got loads of their own equipment, they clearly have the money to spend on this.


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## EdSavoie (Apr 19, 2017)

Yeah sorry. Paying for supervision is almost definitely going to be part of the contract.

There is simply too much to go wrong in all aspects (especially liability) to leave them in there without any host technicians...


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## sk8rsdad (Apr 19, 2017)

This is a simple one. It's your venue so it's your rules. If the contract they signed specifies mandatory technical services then they have the option to accept your terms or go somewhere else. They don't get to decide after the fact that they aren't going to pay.

That said, this isn't your problem to solve. It's the venue booking manager, whoever that would be in the school.


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## Amiers (Apr 19, 2017)

I wouldn't of booked them again until they paid for the repairs. Simple enough.


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## TheaterEd (Apr 19, 2017)

sk8rsdad said:


> This is a simple one. It's your venue so it's your rules. If the contract they signed specifies mandatory technical services then they have the option to accept your terms or go somewhere else. They don't get to decide after the fact that they aren't going to pay.
> 
> That said, this isn't your problem to solve. It's the venue booking manager, whoever that would be in the school.


Agreed. If they've proven that they need extra supervision, then supervision will be required and added to their contract. 

Additionally, if an outside group put a hole in my cyc, you better believe their getting charged for the repair costs. If they don't pay, then they won't be coming back.

I can't speak for this specific group, but in my experience, events like this are just cash grabs that will come to town abuse your facility and leave with a whole lot of registration fees padding their pockets. I personally won't work with these types of organizations or allow them in my spaces. I once had a bad experience where we denied a groups request to rent our facility and then four or five months later I start getting calls that they have been advertising a competition at my venue. I was already booked that weekend for a dance recital so that made for an interesting weekend.....

As for the original question asking for tips. 

I agree 100% with no black ts when you meet the client. For me, I am a very young looking 31 year old running the high school performing arts spaces so if I'm not dressed nicely I tend to get treated like a hs student and that just gets old. Also, I like to set the tone that they are dealing with a professional. That being said, I usually have a more casual outfit on hand if I'm going to be running around a rehearsal or setting lights but for the first meeting I make sure my students and I are at least dressed business casual. It has the added bonus of the fact that since they think I look like a kid, but know I am an adult, they treat my students like adults as well because they have no idea how old any of us are. Some of my student techs look much older than I do. 

As for best and worst groups I've hosted. Same answer. Non-Profit Indian Cultural Event... Many different groups in my area. Some groups are great to work with and well organized, some groups are Nightmares and not allowed to return...

That being said, we don't allow outside dance groups to book our facility since they are rough on the space and we just don't have the availability so I am very lucky to no longer have to work with dance moms...

As for the dance groups. Back when I ran a space that hosted 8-12 different groups from April - May , My best advice it to figure out what they like and take notes so that you know what to expect next year. Each group seemed to have different preferences and want different things from the lighting perspective, so I did my best to be flexible and be prepared. 

Keep in mind though, this is all from a facility manager perspective, for my students, I just expect them to show up dressed nicely and be ready to go with the flow.


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## TNasty (Apr 19, 2017)

sk8rsdad said:


> That said, this isn't your problem to solve. It's the venue booking manager, whoever that would be in the school.


I realize that. I've just sort of been helping guide my supervisor, since he just had that title added to his responsibilities at the start of the year, as the former supervisor stepped down from the position in order to consolidate his responsibilities to just being the district's network systems specialist (due to the new thing where every student in every incoming class gets their own Chromebook, with 600 new devices in one year, it was a no brainer). Luckily, he's dealt with the activities coordinator plenty of times, since he's also the head (and only faculty) of the theatrical department- lots of school productions under his belt at this point.


TheaterEd said:


> My best advice it to figure out what they like and take notes so that you know what to expect next year. Each group seemed to have different preferences and want different things from the lighting perspective, so I did my best to be flexible and be prepared.


That's not half bad at all, especially considering it's usually the same set of groups every year, and the constant shuffle of new and graduating technicians on top of that. I guess I'll start putting together a binder of notes.


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## EdSavoie (Apr 19, 2017)

What we do here at our school (board) is that a minimum of two technicians are required to be billed in, unless your tech requirements are bare bones, and it is only a rehearsal rental.

For instance, if a dance company rents the space to rehearse for a performance, and they don't want any fancy lighting, they can book one (currently me!) For that date.

If the same group comes back for performance night, that becomes a two tech event.

Edit: we don't have a clear cut rule for if they bring their own techs, but if it is large enough to merit bringing your own techs, having two is also a good idea.


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## JonCarter (Apr 19, 2017)

Let them have what they want, the way they want it. But only after making a *LARGE* deposit _in advance_ to cover damage. If they bite, you'll get everything they bust fixed (and maybe improved in the process); if they don't you're no worse off than you are now. (Did I say a *L A R G E* deposit?)


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## Lextech (Apr 20, 2017)

I work at a university and there is no way any rental group comes in without supervision. Or a security deposit. If they don't like the charges they can go somewhere else. Someone gets hurt and all of a sudden my employer is open to all sorts of law suits, no thanks. Someone from my staff is there before they arrive and turns off the lights at the end. My staff or I reserve the final say on safety and who may or may not operate equipment. Operating any other way in my opinion is asking for trouble.


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## StradivariusBone (Apr 20, 2017)

Dance groups are my bread and butter, but I also have a pretty good working relationship with all of my clients and can anticipate their specific and sometimes unusual needs. Some come in and do their thing, but others need some hand holding. It just depends.

As far as contract, our district mandates that only school-authorized personnel are to operate equipment. This saves us a lot of hassle. That includes the flys, the sound board and lighting controller, and requires that they hire an SM. On occasion with certain clients I've let them have a guest followspot op (particularly if it's a last-minute addition or I can't get a kid to do it). When I have groups that come in with the mindset that "their" people will be running equipment I explain to them that it's just not possible. I do let them run media (play tracks/videos) if they have a guy and I'll always offer to let their sound or lighting people sit in with my techs, but we use a digital sound console and LightFactory (computer-based controller) and I've yet to see any dance company bring in someone that could even begin to understand how to use either of those.

I also explain that they are paying for non-skilled labor at minimum wage. We use HS techs whose experience can range from 0-3 years. They are kids and they will make mistakes. I make every effort to ensure that we mitigate that, but it does happen. On the rare complaint I just explain that if they would prefer, they could rent the local union roadhouse for about 4 times as much and guarantee that it will work flawlessly, but I also suspect that they will not get as much flexibility there since we usually accommodate them with their weird requests if it's not too weird.

Two other things I encourage are that they have someone they trust on headset with my kids. It's usually better when they are calling (or at least talking to my SM about) the show and when mistakes happen it's on them, not my SM. I also prod them in the week or two before for a tech sheet of some sort. Even if it's just a dance list with some colors on it. Anything I can do to build a skeleton cue stack to save them time. Most groups are not proactive about getting you information, but all groups will complain if they have to wait on lighting (which is just a fact of life unfortunately).

It's very odd to me that a student would be dealing with a client on this level. No offense intended, but it's a huge liability on the part of the school. You could say or do something that would unintentionally violate a board policy and create a weird situation. I am very picky about which students I let even interact with clients, let alone handle a show prep like that.

Second what has been said about professionalism. I strongly encourage my kids to wear their tech shirts (with our logo) the first day of tech and if it's a multi day then whatever until showtime, when it's back to logo shirts and black. This way the client can identify my techs and be able to seek them out if they have issues. I treat my kids like adults and employees and they respond in kind. In that regard it's about creating a culture, but that's entirely a thread of its own.

One last thought, the only time I book a group without tech is if they are doing a one-off rehearsal without an audience. Most of the time this is a band or choir and it's just the kids and director. If there's no crowd, I don't have to act as house manager and can just turn on the lights for them and record it if they request it. If there's an audience, it's automatically required that I have techs. If an audience member takes ill or falls or something, I have to be able to deal with that and not run sound for the show.

One last, last thought- I don't book body building shows. They trash the dressing rooms (even the ones that clean up) with that spray crap. And the last two I've had flaked on dates and one booked with me, got the dates wrong and marketed before I could correct her, ended up doing the show at a neighboring venue and then didn't pay them. So yeah. No more bodybuilders.


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## TheaterEd (Apr 20, 2017)

StradivariusBone said:


> So yeah. No more bodybuilders.


Duly noted.


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## RonHebbard (Apr 20, 2017)

StradivariusBone said:


> Dance groups are my bread and butter, but I also have a pretty good working relationship with all of my clients and can anticipate their specific and sometimes unusual needs. Some come in and do their thing, but others need some hand holding. It just depends.
> 
> As far as contract, our district mandates that only school-authorized personnel are to operate equipment. This saves us a lot of hassle. That includes the flys, the sound board and lighting controller, and requires that they hire an SM. On occasion with certain clients I've let them have a guest followspot op (particularly if it's a last-minute addition or I can't get a kid to do it). When I have groups that come in with the mindset that "their" people will be running equipment I explain to them that it's just not possible. I do let them run media (play tracks/videos) if they have a guy and I'll always offer to let their sound or lighting people sit in with my techs, but we use a digital sound console and LightFactory (computer-based controller) and I've yet to see any dance company bring in someone that could even begin to understand how to use either of those.
> 
> ...


I hear you on the body builders. I've several horror stories but the worst had a competitor who came out of retirement to win his class and then his abandoned body was found dead on the lobby floor once the crowds cleared. The gentleman had been in the lobby shaking hands and signing autographs when fans of a losing competitor knocked him down on the tile floor and used the shaft of a barbell on display to smash through his skull leaving him dead and bleeding on the lobby floor. The police were summoned and everyone was sure they knew which gang was involved but, of course, nobody admitted to seeing anything and this was decades before cell phones. This was in the lobby of the Hamilton Place Great Hall sometime in the seventies. The press reported the facts and The Hamilton Spectator should have some record in their archives. I have several other body builder tales but that was easily the worst one. Perhaps coming in a distant second was having to sit around until nearly 2:00 a.m. for a competitor to 'pee in a cup' for his steroids test result before he could officially be declared the winner in his class and we could finally lock up and go home for the night. And then there's the smell of coconut oil that stays in your air conditioning system for days afterwards. 
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.


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## StradivariusBone (Apr 20, 2017)

That...is an insane story, Ron. Definitely in the "I don't get paid enough for this %&*# category".


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## TheaterEd (Apr 20, 2017)

RonHebbard said:


> I have several other body builder tales but that was easily the worst one.



I should hope that's the worst one!


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## EdSavoie (Apr 20, 2017)

I agree in that booking should not be left to students. (Which it isn't in my case) The only time I'm involved in the booking process is when the potential client wants to see the venue and / or ask questions about our capabilities. At which point I'm likely wearing a collared shirt, or a labeled crew shirt.

I'm unaware of the details of if we have a deposit, or if paying for destroyed property is in the permits. I'll ask when I get the chance.


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## TNasty (Apr 20, 2017)

Totally on board with the whole "students aren't administrators" deal. Very rarely do I interact with the head admin people of a group, the only exceptions being when a small group comes in, and there's only a couple people in charge (in which case they show up, and I and the rest of the crew will bounce stuff off of them, such as their opinion on sound levels and stage washes).


EdSavoie said:


> I'm unaware of the details of if we have a deposit, or if paying for destroyed property is in the permits. I'll ask when I get the chance.


You might be able to find some documentation on that on your school's website, or the school district's website. I just did last night, and I'll share some of the relevant details.

Some of the fine print on the facilities use form said

> _"I [who's name appears on this document] agree, in behalf of above indicated organization... we will assume full responsibility for all school fees...", _


Which brings me to the policy article I found on the district site. The policy document I found states

> _"Where rules so specify, no item of equipment may be used except by a qualified operator..." _


And

> _"A service charge for hours worked by school and municipal employees will be levied on all groups using school facilities... Municipal police may be required at the discretion of the chief school administrator or his/her delegate. Other service, such as audio-visual operator or other school attendant may be requested."_


So, if the school, or the guest group for that matter, is requesting the presence of an "Audio-Visual Operator" (technician), regardless of whether the request is mutual or not, a "service charge for hours worked" will be added to the expense of renting the space. The school admin's delegate being the activities coordinator.

It'll be interesting to see how this turns out.

On another note...
My friend and I just started to make ID cards for the school's booth technicians (and potentially people who just operate stuff). They actually don't look half bad, and you're still able to be discerned from a regular person who just doesn't seem to understand where they are and aren't allowed.
I also like the shirts idea. We haven't had crew shirts, but everybody on the crew has gotten a cast shirt for every show they work on (which is kinda cool, as you wind up with a piece of memorabilia of sorts).

We also have a checklist that we have somebody from the crew for any event fills out (found here). For the event this weekend, I filled out the event, date, and extra personnel sections, in pen, on three copies (one for each day).


Bodybuilders... I'm lucky I haven't even though of that type of show until now. I'll have nightmares of what those groups are like from now on, even without having dealt with any.


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## RonHebbard (Apr 20, 2017)

TNasty said:


> Bodybuilders... I'm lucky I haven't even though of that type of show until now. I'll have nightmares of what those groups are like from now on, even without having dealt with any.


*Let's not totally malign body builders* as rentals go. Aside from the lingering aroma of coconut oils, most of them are genuinely good people, both females and males, and at least as devoted to their interests as the majority of us are to ours. In most cases, I found them no more . . . "annoying" . . . than 'dance Moms' as a category. Here's a little more background / detail on the incident I mentioned earlier:
The fellow who was murdered in the lobby had been a real sweetheart all day. A few years previously, he had competed regularly and was consistently winning in his categories on an annual basis. One year he announced his retirement from competitive bodybuilding and eased his way into advanced, competitive, training; physically, emotionally and diet-wise. At that point he began renting table space in the lobby to market his wares. He was maybe 60 years of age and that's a total guesstimate. At that point in time, we were seeing competitive bodybuilding rentals two, possibly three, times per year. They got to know us and the venue and we got to know them. When the retired champion announced he was returning to compete one last time, the crowd was split with half of them cheering wholeheartedly for the beloved retired legend and others, primarily members of a biker gang, cheering for the new, much younger, up and comer who just happened to be a member of their motorcycle club.
In downtown Hamilton there was a small, private, foundry called McCoy Industries who primarily manufactured barbells and dumbbells and were always corporate sponsors of the competitive bodybuilding events and routinely had lobby displays and spokespersons marketing their products and offering competition specials to anyone wishing to buy display items and save them the trouble of returning them to their warehouse. The competition between the retired multi-year champion and the tough new biker dude became the event of the day. At the end of the competition, and having just won his event and regained his belt and title, everyone's hero was out at his table signing autographs and selling his photos and books. I'm recalling this was a matinee and the finale of a multi-day event. The lobby was packed with patrons and competitors alike purchasing bargains from the various vendors. Seemingly no one heard or noticed anything out of the ordinary but when the crowds dispersed the FOH manager discovered the murder scene on the ground level of the lobby and directly in front of the passenger elevator. Some one had acquired a barbell from the McCoy Foundries display, removed the locking collar and weights from one end, rotated the barbell into a vertical orientation and driven the unweighted end down and through the skull of the elder competitor smashing a hole through his skull and leaving his award winning body to die.
*More than enough said. Not a good way to end a matinee, a competition or a life.*
Let me be clear: I'm not against bodybuilders, motorcyclists *or even theater consultants*.
The murder scene was in the lobby of the Hamilton Place Great Hall in the latter half of the seventies. The event where I had to hang around 'til roughly 2:00 a.m. waiting for a competitor to manage to urinate in an official's steroid testing cup was more than a decade later in Hamilton's Theater Aquarius in the very early 90's.
At some point I'll post further on the 'joys' of lighting a bodybuilding competition and some of the blatant lies I was told.
No one will die in that post, I promise.
*Edit:* I'd misspelled finale.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard


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## TNasty (Apr 20, 2017)

RonHebbard said:


> No one will die in that post, I promise.


I'll hold you to that promise, Ron. lol.

I totally see where you're coming from with comparing them to "dance moms", not aware of the complexity in technical work, and typically make odd requests that even if you'd like to tend to, you just don't have the time or equipment to do so. I guess that goes for any competitive deal- people want everything possible for their own pleasure (either their kid's dance looking better than it really is, or a body builder wanting a dramatic entrance through a wall of blue colored fog with strobing lights complete with Sirrius by the Alan Parsons Project playing synced up to followspots doing a well executed figure eight).


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## TimMc (Apr 21, 2017)

I work in civic, municipal and privately owned facilities so some of my comments may not quite fit your situation. I also manage the largest regional audio/lighting shop in our region and deal with clients that range from profession producers to the unquestionably clueless. Apply the grain of salt as needed...

All venue rentals come with some kind of rules and limitations. At our PAC/convention center a lessee MUST put up a deposit, use the venue's ticketing service if the event requires city staff or IATSE stage hands, and the City must be listed as an additional named insured on the lessee's liability policy (certificate of insurance must be returned with signed contract and deposit). To say the City has learned the hard way would be understating the last 47 years of experience.

I have a fairly low opinion of dance competitions to start with - they are about separating parents from their money without providing any genuine value to the kids (IMHO, and unlike the dance studios that actually teach the students) - they never want supervision and certainly want to minimize all expenses. It's 100% monetary and 0% art.

Much of this is about what the school board or site administrators are comfortable with as teachers and students have very little or no input into policy or enforcement of policy. If the school superintendent is comfortable with letting lessees damage property there isn't much you can do about it. Likewise if the school principal has better things to do than enforce any requirements for in-house staffing you're pretty much S.O.L. Most schools would rather trust the 'take the money and run' dance competition staff word for things than trust teachers or especially students.

Until your school experiences some kind of catastrophic incident (personal injury, dramatic damages or financial losses) your situation isn't likely to change. I'd think the school board's lawyers would be all over any rental agreements to minimize the district/school/employee liability but it's possible they're unaware or that the school board has made a conscious decision to maximize outside revenues and simply look the other way. See the first sentence of this paragraph.  When the inevitable Bad Thing does happen the usual school response is to remove the "I told you so" school personnel and then simply stop renting out the facility; it will remain that way until the institutional memory becomes institutional amnesia.

My dad was a lawyer and I know the way to fix the problems the original post describes must be contractually dealt with far above his/her level. The reality is the school board owns or manages the property and they'll do that in whatever manner they choose. I wish I could be more optimistic but my experience from being student dealing with outside rentals of our auditorium all the way to the current day give me no reason to do so. 

/cynicism


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## JJBerman (Apr 24, 2017)

The Performing Arts Center I work at part time has a decent list of rules that we usually abide by. There will always be some exceptions. Attached is the Policies, Application, and Fee Schedule for what we have. All information is publicly accessible from the School Districts website, I just took the time to black out everything that could directly point back to the district as a precaution. If you want to know what school district this is for send me a PM. The policies are a project of mine to update as they are 10 years old.


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## TNasty (Apr 24, 2017)

Luckily, the group was actually pretty nice to work with this weekend (I can breath much easier now). They brought their own PA system, and only needed to raise and lower the same wash for each performance, so I gave them a submaster (sadly I had to write over one of my cool blinky flashy effect cues for things like rock bands).

Little did I know at the time, my friend and I were talking with the CEO of the company while we were there yesterday. Real nice guy, talked about equipment for a while, and he also offered us in on getting some equipment from this Chinese company (who makes the circuit boards and other electronics for Martin) that they buy from every summer. Everybody there was really quite nice to work with, to be honest.

Anyways, what other bits of advice does anybody have? I'd love to hear it, even if it isn't applicable to school venues- just educate me (and hopefully other members too) so we don't have to learn the hard way.


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