# pit fall prevention



## BillConnerFASTC (Aug 9, 2014)

Just came back from a final check out of a project of mine and thought some might be interested in the pit filler. These TWGs are SECOA - 4x8 with a cross bar - but I think InterAmerica will do 8X8 without cross bars. Overall, both work.


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## MNicolai (Aug 9, 2014)

I've been thinking more and more about the complications of fall prevention at pits, and of operating the various pit mechanisms, as well as the cost of installing/excavating a pit.

Bill, in your travels, do you see any move towards pits going away and instead having the orchestra piped into the theater via the sound reinforcement system, and the sound/video of the stage piped off into a rehearsal space where the orchestra performs?


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## Amiers (Aug 9, 2014)

Looks pretty durable. How heavy is it, looks like it might take a few ppl to get it out.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Aug 9, 2014)

Mike - No. General resistance to piping the orchestra in.

Amiers - Not sure how to answer. Intent is TWG stays in and only decks go in and out. They are just like any pit filler decks -honeycomb. These were 4x8 but I am changing in future to 3x8 so they are easier to store.

I do see pits more frequently being deleted from plans for budget. Maybe pit is $20,000 to $30,000 and filler a little more than that, but wheelchair access can add another $40,000 or more, so over $100k for a musical once a year. Hard decisions.


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## Amiers (Aug 9, 2014)

BillConnerASTC said:


> Mike - No. General resistance to piping the orchestra in.
> 
> Amiers - Not sure how to answer. Intent is TWG stays in and only decks go in and out. They are just like any pit filler decks -honeycomb. These were 4x8 but I am changing in future to 3x8 so they are easier to store.
> 
> I do see pits more frequently being deleted from plans for budget. Maybe pit is $20,000 to $30,000 and filler a little more than that, but wheelchair access can add another $40,000 or more, so over $100k for a musical once a year. Hard decisions.




The last place I worked at that had a pit the conductors had their head sticking out during performances. I guess I've just never seen a permenant wire net.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Aug 10, 2014)

Amiers said:


> The last place I worked at that had a pit the conductors had their head sticking out during performances. I guess I've just never seen a permenant wire net.


You can have a removable section for the conductor. I'd estimate a 4x4 to weigh in the 50 pound range. But then you have the fall hazard. This will restrict the singers view of the conductor from upstage. Still looking for the perfect solution.


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## SHCP (Aug 12, 2014)

How heavy are these sections, and what is the framing of the covers?


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## microstar (Aug 12, 2014)

Wouldn't the wire net be visible to some members of the audience during a performance? Seems like they should be made of black aircraft cable to avoid being a visual distraction. I understand they are to prevent people from falling into the pit, but they would do so being either color!


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## BillConnerFASTC (Aug 12, 2014)

SHCP said:


> How heavy are these sections, and what is the framing of the covers?


The lids are standard honeycomb decks - in the 125 pound range. There is a perimeter extrusion, molded corners, two 3/16 or 1/4" plywood skins, and honeycomb between. Or close to that.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Aug 12, 2014)

microstar said:


> Wouldn't the wire net be visible to some members of the audience during a performance? Seems like they should be made of black aircraft cable to avoid being a visual distraction. I understand they are to prevent people from falling into the pit, but they would do so being either color!


Yes - they should be black wire rope. Yes its visible but so is nylon net. It my opinion that it is no longer acceptable to leave a fall hazard like an orchestra pit. Too many people seriously injured over the years.

One architect use bar grate which may be acoustically transparent but even less view through. Nylon net sags too much and manufacturer disclaims protecting people in the pit. Got to think the base wouldn't feel too good to someone falling on it either. So far, twg seems like best option to me.


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## MNicolai (Aug 12, 2014)

BillConnerASTC said:


> Yes - they should be black wire rope. Yes its visible but so is nylon net. It my opinion that it is no longer acceptable to leave a fall hazard like an orchestra pit. Too many people seriously injured over the years.
> 
> One architect use bar grate which may be acoustically transparent but even less view through. Nylon net sags too much and manufacturer disclaims protecting people in the pit. Got to think the base wouldn't feel too good to someone falling on it either. So far, twg seems like best option to me.



Seems like you could take some acoustically transparent black scrim-like fabric over the wire rope sections, not unlike what you'd use to mask loudspeaker cavities.

I'll bet it's mostly an issue though only if your stand lights are glowing like the Vegas strip after sundown. If your audience is fixating on your orchestra pit's fall protection fillers instead of what's being performed on-stage, you've got bigger problems than which color your wire rope is.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Aug 13, 2014)

Or get some marbles in a can.....


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## AlexDonkle (Aug 16, 2014)

BillConnerASTC said:


> You can have a removable section for the conductor. I'd estimate a 4x4 to weigh in the 50 pound range. But then you have the fall hazard. This will restrict the singers view of the conductor from upstage. Still looking for the perfect solution.


I think the answer you're looking for is projecting a hologram of the conductor than can only be seen from the stage, while the conductor himself is safely below the TWG with the orchestra. 


MNicolai said:


> Seems like you could take some acoustically transparent black scrim-like fabric over the wire rope sections, not unlike what you'd use to mask loudspeaker cavities.


If you do this, you'd also be setup to do some very cool "fog coming up through the floor" effects...


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## BillConnerFASTC (Aug 16, 2014)

The TWG does make foot lights and confidence monitors as as possibly audio monitors spiffy.


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## Dionysus (Sep 1, 2014)

Personally I really like the solution the Stratford Festival Theatre had to the idea of a pit. Instead of putting the orchestra at the FRONT and below the very nicely designed non-traditional stage. The Orchestra plays in a room at the BACK of the stage (elevated), which the wall that separates the orchestra room from the stage can be opened in variety of different ways. the orchestra is generally miced, however when wide open this is not needed and the orchestra balances well. Really depends on the production. OF course the conductor is not visible to people on the deck, so monitors show the conductor, and the conductor sees the stage the same way.
I just really like that there is NO fall hazard at all, and if the production would be better with the orchestra miced and sealed away it is easily done, or even semi-acoustic.

Really is a factor to the stage design in the first place. But I've really always loved the design of that stage, especially the "cupcake".


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## BillConnerFASTC (Sep 1, 2014)

I like the Stratford solution also but safe to say those are professionals at all levels and this is much harder for ameuters and not usually welcomed at high schools in the US. The director needs to be in front and parents want to see their kids in the pit. Also highly reliant on technology, not something that many high schools have budget to maintain.


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## TheaterEd (Sep 2, 2014)

We have a safety net with a trap door for the conductor. I was hired mid year when the auditorium opened and a story was being circulated by an immature colleague that a teacher did a flip into the net at the beginning of the year. Fast forward to January and we removed the pit cover for our show. Two days after giving everyone a stern lecture about pit safety, my senior stage manager jumped into the net. She was removed from drama club and not allowed to attend the performance or be in the auditorium until the pit cover was replaced. Fast forward to one year later. This time when we removed the cover, I sat down the cast and crew and read off about 10 or so news stories of pit accidents. This was so effective that we had a hard time getting the freshman to go within five feet of it. After much positive feedback from the students, I will be using this tactic from now on to ensure we don't have any further issues.

My only gripe is, the conductors hatch is a real pain to release. The Velcro tabs are so finicky that it takes me at least 5 minutes to get the thing back on.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Sep 2, 2014)

Theater Ed - nylon net like Incord, correct? You should have the orchestra in place and the have somebody jump on and report the results.


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## TheaterEd (Sep 2, 2014)

BillConnerASTC said:


> Theater Ed - nylon net like Incord, correct? You should have the orchestra in place and the have somebody jump on and report the results.


LOL. Yeah, I can tell you exactly how that would end. I don't have time for that kind of paperwork.

I also make it a point to go into the pit and pull the net down. It may stop you from dying, but it will not by any means prevent injury if there is anything in the pit over 3' tall (music stand for example).


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## Dionysus (Sep 4, 2014)

BillConnerASTC said:


> I like the Stratford solution also but safe to say those are professionals at all levels and this is much harder for ameuters and not usually welcomed at high schools in the US. The director needs to be in front and parents want to see their kids in the pit. Also highly reliant on technology, not something that many high schools have budget to maintain.


I agree completely, but it is still a very good talking point I do believe.
Either way at the highschool I went to, as with just about every highschool in the province does NOT have a purpose built theatre of any kind (there are some with full theatres or such, mainly around Toronto and Sudbury, etc). The highschool I went to, both Gyms have stages. The Drama department needs to take over the gym a week before show and put up all lighting, etc. The "pit" is just on the floor in front of the stage. The money is simply just not there.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Sep 4, 2014)

Obviously my view of high school theatres is skewed by the fact they hired a theatre consultant, but to say the least, I've worked on a lot of pretty complete high school auditorium and stages - with 50 and 80 ft fly lofts, orchestra pits with lifts, balconies, and all of the accessory spaces. It is too bad we don't have a good data base of these. (ETC does have a pretty good data base of lighting systems - but even that probably leaves out the low end - holes in the wall with track lights and wall boxes.


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## MNicolai (Sep 4, 2014)

BillConnerASTC said:


> Obviously my view of high school theatres is skewed by the fact they hired a theatre consultant, but to say the least, I've worked on a lot of pretty complete high school auditorium and stages - with 50 and 80 ft fly lofts, orchestra pits with lifts, balconies, and all of the accessory spaces. It is too bad we don't have a good data base of these. (ETC does have a pretty good data base of lighting systems - but even that probably leaves out the low end - holes in the wall with track lights and wall boxes.



Similarly skewed view here, but we're seeing lots of these get built in the Midwest. Every high school wants their own theater, which in some cases serves as a roadhouse when not in use for the school. Some pretty advanced systems and spaces going into some of these high schools. Sometimes they even hire actual staff to run these facilities. Sometimes.


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## gafftaper (Sep 5, 2014)

Hey @BillConnerASTC any chance of getting a custom made retrofit kit from any of the vendors you know? I love the idea. My sister theaters in the same district both have large pits, and they fight the battle of lifting the huge platforms in and out and then it's a shady rope net keeping things "safe". If there was a way to do a retro install I bet both theater managers would be interested.

As for me my pit is 40' wide left to right, 7' across at center and tapers to less than 2' in the corners, best of all it's less than 4' deep. You can't just see the conductor's head, if he's tall enough you can see his Butt. It's more of a ditch than a pit.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Sep 5, 2014)

I'm sure they can be retrofitted. And I'm guessing the fillers you mention are home built beasts - not a platform system from Wenger or Stage right or such? HS theatre people across the country - and a lot of their building maintenance people - suffer from these bloated over weight monsters (along with inaccesible house lights). 

And you have what I call a demi-pit.​


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