# Sound Effects and Copyrights



## Eboy87 (Oct 7, 2008)

A topic that involves almost all of us. I'm sound designing a show right now where just about every scene is in a new location. The director says there's going to be minimal, if any scenery, so it's up to the LD and me to create these locations. I plan on going out and recording some of the sound effects I need myself, but I know I won't be able to record all of them. 

Say I go to a site like Sounddogs.com, or get sounds from the library here at school (or the Chicago public library), how do the copyright laws apply to them if I wanted to use them for this show? For sounddogs, is it I pay for the file, then it's mine to use as I see fit, or are there strings attached? 

Or am I over-thinking this for a college production?


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## elite1trek (Oct 7, 2008)

Eboy87 said:


> Or am I over-thinking this for a college production?



Probably. Its also probably illegal to rip sfx from your library too, but it happens. As for the "pay-for" sites, you would have to read the terms of use that they provide.

There are a lot of free sound fx sites out there, but the quality is questionable. If you do a couple good Google searches, you can probably find what you need.


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## lieperjp (Oct 7, 2008)

Eboy87 said:


> Or am I over-thinking this for a college production?



Probably. The likelihood of getting caught are slim, but does that make it ok? That's a question of Ethics.

Also, the thing about it being a college production is that technically ok for an education you are able to use it, but if you charge for the production, then you are making a profit, so then you have to have permission. Lawyers have to make it so complicated...


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## Eboy87 (Oct 7, 2008)

That's the thing I'm in the dark about. I do believe tickets are being sold, but I'm getting the feeling this is more like someone's pet project. I know for a fact I'm not getting paid for it (volunteering, it's all I could get, but it gives experience), so I don't quite know whether we're taking in a profit or if it's just going to cover the expenses of the show. 

While it does seem a bit complicated, I'd like to understand all this for when I'm actually designing a show that isn't put on by a school. I found the end user license for the sounddogs website: End User License. It looks like I have permission to use their sound effects for a show, but I can't redistribute them.

I agree Lieperjp, the lawyers do make it too complicated.


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## lieperjp (Oct 7, 2008)

Eboy87 said:


> That's the thing I'm in the dark about. I do believe tickets are being sold, but I'm getting the feeling this is more like someone's pet project. I know for a fact I'm not getting paid for it (volunteering, it's all I could get, but it gives experience), so I don't quite know whether we're taking in a profit or if it's just going to cover the expenses of the show.
> 
> While it does seem a bit complicated, I'd like to understand all this for when I'm actually designing a show that isn't put on by a school. I found the end user license for the sounddogs website: End User License. It looks like I have permission to use their sound effects for a show, but I can't redistribute them.
> 
> I agree Lieperjp, the lawyers do make it too complicated.



I'd have to say that looking at the About Us section, the F.A.Q. Section, and the EULA that once you purchase the sounds you are free to use them in any live production that is not being recorded and distributed.


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## Sayen (Oct 7, 2008)

What this industry seems to lack is an easy way for schools and small theaters to obtain rights for playback of music and sound effects. I've looked at BMI and ASCAP, and neither even acknowledges the theatrical industry. I pay rights on everything else used in productions, happily, and would pay for music rights if I could find a simple and economical way - similar to CCLI for worship music. As it is, I mostly rely on royalty free music, and a few local bands who let us play their stuff.

Anyone want to start a company?


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## philhaney (Oct 7, 2008)

I haven't tried any of these, but here are some links I found:

The Music Bridge LLC

Getty Images - Music

Music Clearance (Song Rights)

Ok, I checked to make sure that they are all functional links. I just haven't obtained any music rights through them...


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## museav (Oct 7, 2008)

There can sometimes be little 'gotchas' in the language, such as sometimes being limited to having one copy of the file, so you may not be able to have the file on the computer you used to edit or to prepare a cue list and at the same time have it on a different computer for performance.

Also, it sounds like what they are providing is synchronization rights, which are usually related to backing music tracks for television, video, film, etc. where the audio is synchronized to a visual image in producing a multimedia result. These are not the same as performance or grand rights Grand rights are often required in "dramatic" applications, the definition of which seems to vary but relates greatly to it being key to the drama, which it seems might be relevant if they are relying on the sound to help set the scene.

The 'educational use' logic is being more closely watched, you may get away with that for a class and maybe even rehearsals but probably not with an audience, even if you don't charge it is likely going to be considered a public performance rather than an educational use.

However, I believe that sound effects may be easier to address than music. There are many 'royalty free' effects out on the Web as well as commercial effects libraries that would include the necessary rights (provided you purchase the library). I remember when I was in college relying heavily on a large BBC sound effects compilation (at that time on vinyl) that the university had purchased, if it wasn't in that you made your own.


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## derekleffew (Oct 7, 2008)

It was easier in the olden times. Once you bought the record, you could dub it to your show tape on the Ampex AG440 1/4 track machine with no issues. During the show, be sure to cue the leader splice just *before* the playback head!



Ampex AG-440 Cosmetic Evolution.


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## bdkdesigns (Oct 8, 2008)

At our university, we are covered by the blanket rights purchased by the NPR station based out of our building with BMI and ASCAP (our department is listed in both contracts). We are fine with those companies but beyond that, I was always under the impression that it fell under the fair use laws for education.


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## museav (Oct 8, 2008)

bdkdesigns said:


> At our university, we are covered by the blanket rights purchased by the NPR station based out of our building with BMI and ASCAP (our department is listed in both contracts). We are fine with those companies but beyond that, I was always under the impression that it fell under the fair use laws for education.


I would check on that, many schools make the mistake of thinking their blanket rights cover them but many of those do not cover grand rights related to dramatic performances. And my understanding is that it is not the environment but the use that defines educational use. I went through something similar with the legal department within a large university and they indicated that the "educational use" idea was very misapplied. You might have a very difficult time arguing that music or and intellectual property used in a performance open to the public is an educational use simply because it is being presented to people who are not even registered students.

To be clear, this is simply anecdotal information based on past experience, I am not an property rights attorney and that is who should be guiding you.


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## philhaney (Oct 9, 2008)

I checked with the person who is in charge of securing the rights to the music we use at the Pageant of the Masters, and here is her advice:

_Start with ascap and search the database. Enter song title, composer or anything else you know and some info should pop up. Make sure it's not public domain because then it's free to use. Sometimes you can go to major publishers (Warner/Chappell, EMI, MPL, etc.) and search on their sites to see if they're the publisher. Each publisher has itis own way of doing things but one thing to know is that there is no set rate for securing rights. Basically, you bid. If you've never gotten rights before, you can't use a previous rate as a first offer so you'll probably have to submit all the pertinent show info (type of use, length, live show, vocals, orchestra, movement, venue, ticket price, show dates, etc.). Warner/Chappell has a pretty good form to fill out and send in.

This info is for live performances (grand rights) only. Any rights for CDs, recordings, TV, movies are done through another agency such as Harry Fox. Remember, the price isn't set in stone. We've paid everything from $250.00 to $5,000 for a song. I once got a price down from $10,000 to $250.00 based on the argument of prior rates, non-profit venue, etc.

Hope this helps..._

Bear in mind, we're securing the rights for our orchestra to perform the music, not to play the music off of a CD, etc. So you may want to go here.


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## cdub260 (Oct 9, 2008)

Often, though not always, if you're doing a short run in a small venue, the rights holder will grant you the rights for free. This is not so much generosity on their part is it is that your show is too small, and the fee for using their recording is too small for them to even care. Sometimes it simply costs them less to just give you the rights than it would if they were to actually consider your request.


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## CountFeedback (Oct 10, 2008)

While I've never run into a copyright issue, I've always included in every design contract something along the lines of "All audio samples and music in the design should be considered as suggestions. Acquiring the performance rights to these pieces is solely the responsibility of the producing entity." It's a bit "passing the buck," but better to be protected then to get hung out to dry by a producer if anyone comes looking for royalties.


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## Grog12 (Oct 10, 2008)

First off and foremost: Fair Use does not, I repeat, does not cover any show for an educational instituition that charges a fee for tickets.

Those with a blanket radio station liscence: If memory serves you are able to use music during pre-show, intermission, and post show and will still be covered by that liscence but I could be wrong.

Follow this link of http://www.richmondsounddesign.com/docs/sound-copyrights.doc for a detailed article.


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## Sayen (Oct 11, 2008)

Educational use is pretty narrow - going off memory alone, the use has to accommodate a curriculum, the educator has to be present, and there are limits to the length of material depending on the medium (books, poetry, music, movies, etc.). Educational use definitely does not cover theater, dance, or concert group performances.

Great article Grog, thank you. The last bit about finding original music is the key I think. There are enough quality high school/college bands who will play for cheap that you can cover pre/intermission/post show music, although underscoring is another problem.

Some of the comments in the survey are interesting. Classical music is not free if playing pre-recorded. While the original composer is dead, arrangers and the symphony playing the music usually have rights. School orchestras, for example, pay a licensing fee for performances. Oh, and I want a $72,000 budget for my next play.


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## Eboy87 (Oct 12, 2008)

There is definitely some good reading in this thread (I'm still reading the article posted by Grog). I have a production meeting this Friday with the director and the rest of the designers, so I'll present some of this information to them. 

I wound up finding the BBC Sound Effect library in our school's library, so I'll find out about getting the rights to use some of their sounds. I do still have to go out and record some of my own, but I need to purchase a pre-amp first (or haul my ONYX up here).


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## bobbyt2012 (Oct 14, 2008)

lieperjp said:


> Probably. The likelihood of getting caught are slim, but does that make it ok? That's a question of Ethics.
> 
> Also, the thing about it being a college production is that technically ok for an education you are able to use it, but if you charge for the production, then you are making a profit, so then you have to have permission. Lawyers have to make it so complicated...



Well put. That was my understanding as well. I have to admit to using some copyrighted sound effects for a school production that charged admission, but the chances of someone noticing or caring are very low. Maybe if the composer was in the audience, he would get angry. That's pretty unlikely though.


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## Grog12 (Oct 14, 2008)

The composer, the producer, the record company.....Look we've all done it. That doesn't make it right and or legal. Most of us reading this thread will do it again.  Still doesn't make it right and or legal. Ignorance of the law does not excuse you from it. (God how I wish it did....there would be so many more dead hookers in my backyard..er nevermind).

But what you can do is start being mindful of it.


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## museav (Oct 15, 2008)

bobbyt2012 said:


> Well put. That was my understanding as well. I have to admit to using some copyrighted sound effects for a school production that charged admission, but the chances of someone noticing or caring are very low. Maybe if the composer was in the audience, he would get angry. That's pretty unlikely though.


Just remember that if you ever create any original material, especially if that is how you make a living.

I'm not trying to pick on this one instance as it is a very minor transgression and I had much the same outlook until I started having original works I wanted to protect. But as a general point I do find it ironic when intellectual property rights come up as a problem in arts related forums. A person who creates an original work has potentially created something with just as much value, and sometimes just as much investment, as if they created a physical thing, so why do people who would never steal the mp3 player or computer often think nothing about stealing the music they put on it?

If those in the arts don't recognize and support intellectual property rights, then it's no wonder the general public doesn't. Think about it, by assigning no value to other's works, you are essentially implying that anything original you create also has no value. Yes, it is a hassle and the attorneys have made it more difficult than it should be, but that does not change the underlying principle.


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## Eboy87 (Oct 15, 2008)

I'd like to second Grog and Muse's statements. That was the point of this thread; to serve as a reference on how to go about doing this legally.


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## JoeGriffin (Oct 16, 2008)

Eboy87 said:


> I'd like to second Grog and Muse's statements. That was the point of this thread; to serve as a reference on how to go about doing this legally.



Ian--

IANAL, but; If you purchase a sound effects library (on CD or whatever) from folks like the Hollywood Edge or the BBC, generally speaking you can use them for any sound design project so long as you don't repackage them and sell them as "Ian's Cool Sound Effects." 

For example, in the liners for the Hollywood Edge Signature Series Peter Michael Sullivan disc (good thunder and rain sounds), it says "your use of these materials is restricted exclusively for the purpose of sound design and assembly of elements in an audio composition."

Once you've bought the effects, for all intents and purposes they're okay to use, royalty-free. I've had a few conversations with the folks at Hollywood Edge and Sound Ideas about this and it seems like the effects libraries mostly work this way.

I believe this legal protection extends to: if you go into a studio and use the effects library _they've_ purchased, you're still covered. I'd imagine, but don't quote me here, that if your school library bought the BBC library and you're doing a school production, then you're covered.


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## Grog12 (Oct 16, 2008)

Effects are one thing Joe, as that is the intent of most if not all sound effects companies. Actual music is a completely different story.


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## Eboy87 (Oct 16, 2008)

Perhaps I should re-title this thread. After reading the liner notes for the BBC CD's, I got the same impression that I could use them in a show, but not turn around and sell the actual sounds as if they were my own. 

I wanted to get professionals to chime in in this thread as a reference for people using recorded material in their shows, but want to do it legally. Since this is a forum for people just starting out in the industry, I thought it would be helpful to have such a topic.


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## JoeGriffin (Oct 16, 2008)

Grog12 said:


> Effects are one thing Joe, as that is the intent of most if not all sound effects companies. Actual music is a completely different story.




Yeah, I understand that. However, unless I'm reading it wrong, the OP's post:





Eboy87 said:


> A topic that involves almost all of us. I'm sound designing a show right now where just about every scene is in a new location. The director says there's going to be minimal, if any scenery, so it's up to the LD and me to create these locations. I plan on going out and recording some of the sound effects I need myself, but I know I won't be able to record all of them.
> 
> Say I go to a site like Sounddogs.com, or get sounds from the library here at school (or the Chicago public library), how do the copyright laws apply to them if I wanted to use them for this show? For sounddogs, is it I pay for the file, then it's mine to use as I see fit, or are there strings attached?
> 
> Or am I over-thinking this for a college production?





...was about sound effects, not music. Music's been covered quite well in this thread already, but the sound effects question seemed as yet unresolved.


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## museav (Oct 16, 2008)

JoeGriffin said:


> Music's been covered quite well in this thread already, but the sound effects question seemed as yet unresolved.


I'm not sure it can be easily resolved. You probably just have to check what rights are granted when you purchase a file or effects library. You may also have to look at what distribution or copying is allowed. Looking at some sound effects libraries, most provide sync rights but some specifically exclude performance rights. Most will apparently allow you to copy a file to your workstation for production but typically only one copy is allowed to exist, you usually can't have copies on multiple computers simultaneously or have it on a network accessible drive. Even within a single provider or site there apparently are sometimes different licenses depending on the original source. In some cases, theatrical use may require filling out and submitting a Cue Sheet and you may be subject to additional fees. Some effect libraries limit use to the original purchaser with the rights being non-transferable, if a school has an effects library that was purchased by a group or school within the institution, the use may even be limited to that group or school. There seems to be no standard, you almost have to look at each situation individually.


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## JoeGriffin (Oct 17, 2008)

museav said:


> I'm not sure it can be easily resolved. You probably just have to check what rights are granted when you purchase a file or effects library. You may also have to look at what distribution or copying is allowed. Looking at some sound effects libraries, most provide sync rights but some specifically exclude performance rights. Most will apparently allow you to copy a file to your workstation for production but typically only one copy is allowed to exist, you usually can't have copies on multiple computers simultaneously or have it on a network accessible drive. Even within a single provider or site there apparently are sometimes different licenses depending on the original source. In some cases, theatrical use may require filling out and submitting a Cue Sheet and you may be subject to additional fees. Some effect libraries limit use to the original purchaser with the rights being non-transferable, if a school has an effects library that was purchased by a group or school within the institution, the use may even be limited to that group or school. There seems to be no standard, you almost have to look at each situation individually.




So perhaps it's not completely cut and dried, but at least we're talking about it now.

To the OP: what does the legal language on those BBC discs say?


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