# Beginning Theatre Projections



## RJD (May 17, 2013)

Hi Everyone!

I am a high school theatre teacher and I am interested in looking into starting to use some projectors for backdrops and other theatre effects. 

I spoke with a few guys at plasafocus yesterday and got some information, but I wanted your opinions.

We have a 40' x 20' muslin cyc we are look to project onto. We also have similarly sized fabric back drop we could paint full white. Which would be best for projecting? 

What kind of projector would you suggest? we are looking for 10k lumen units, probably used versions theaters are looking to move out for 12k models. What brands work best? What media servers do you guys like? What software do people like? 

I am a total beginner just looking for info and a place to start! Thanks!


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## Banks241 (May 17, 2013)

Hello, 
I can't speak for the 10k range of projectors really. I've either worked in the 4-5k consumer zone or the much larger show grade projectors. 
What I can offer is some suggestion as to Media Servers, or at least some useful tools for playback. If you are planning on using a decent Mac for playback then I would look into Qlab. They are just now releasing version 3 which is supposed to have a lot of new features specifically for video use. Qlab is also great software for audio playback. 
A Video license isn't terribly expensive for what it's capable of and setup is pretty straight forward with a little manual review. 
Figure 53 | QLab | Live Show Control for Mac OS X

From there the cost starts to be a factor, but since I'm a PC guy I would be remiss if I didn't suggest Dataton Watchout. This is PC based software and requires a minimum of a control and a playback computer. I would look for a minimum of $8K to get up and running with it. It is versatile and timeline based which can make cueing a bit easier. The learning curve is a little steeper on Watchout to get going but once it's up and running the possibilities are pretty wide open. 
WATCHOUT | Dataton | www.dataton.com

Finally if you're looking to play and don't mind getting your hands dirty learning software there is a great program that does all kinds of fun things called Isadora. This one is multiplatform and is a great creative tool for exploring projection use. It's not terribly expensive but it does have a steep learning curve. There are however great tutorials online for it. 
TROIKATRONIX | live performance tools

Good Luck.


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## MarshallPope (May 17, 2013)

Looking to media server software, you may also want to take a look at Arkaos. This would come in at just a couple of thousand dollars. Depending on exactly what you are wanting to use it for, Renewed Vision ProPresenter or ProVideoPlayer could be good, budget-conscious options. 

A muslin cyc will take a projection decently, but will likely look soft and you'll lose some brightness. A white painted drop will reflect the image slightly better, even more so if you use one of the special projector screen paints.


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## Joshualangman (May 17, 2013)

Because of the aspect ratio of your cyc, you may want to consider using two or three projectors to fill it and edge-blending them. As of this latest release, QLab will do edge-blending for you very easily, you just need to procure the projectors. Using more projectors from a closer throw distance will also get you a brighter image than one projector from far away. Are we talking about front or rear projection? I'm assuming front, just checking.


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## museav (May 18, 2013)

How about starting at the beginning. What are you trying to do or achieve? Where and how can you mount the projector(s) and are the related mounts, power and cable paths existing or do those also have to be addressed? What is your budget? Are you trying to do this all yourself or will you be hiring someone to provide the equipment and installation?

This general topic has been discussed here multiple times so you might want to start with looking at some of those past discussion. In many cases a critical factor is what you are trying to do and/or what you expect in terms of results. Creating full height virtual sets that are usable under full stage lighting can be a quite different situation than creating environmental effects or 'upper thirds' type content.

Specific to your situation, as Joshua referenced, 40'x20' is not a standard video format so to fill the full 40' width you would have to actually create a larger image (40'x30' for 4:3, 40'x25' for 16:10 or 40'x22.5' for 16:9). And 10,000 lumens over a 40'x22.5' image is about 11ftL (assuming a 1.0 gain projection material, yours could actually be lower) which might work in very low ambient light conditions but probably won't stand up to much stage lighting hitting the image. Also consider that unless the images are more atmospheric or environmental then you often want a very flat projection surface and possibly one that helps accurately reproduce colors and/or helps maintain image contrast.



Joshualangman said:


> Using more projectors from a closer throw distance will also get you a brighter image than one projector from far away.


If the multiple projectors resulted im more total output than a single projector that would provide greater image brightness but that is a factor of the total projector output hitting the screen and not of the throw distance. The throw distance is greatly irrelevant to the resulting brightness, X lumens over an Y' by Z' image gives the same image brightness regardless of the associated throw distance. The only way the throw distance is generally a factor is if there are any differences in the related lens optics losses (i.e. a long throw lens may incur greater internal losses).


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## RJD (May 18, 2013)

Thank you for your help and information! I will do my best to lay out all of the information I have to give you a place to start. 

We are doing Shrek the musical next year and want to have a lot of different back drop looks. We had the idea/inspiration after seeing some recent professional shows to look into a projection system instead of fly multiple drops. We have a 850 seat theatre with a fully rigged fly system. Stage dimensions are 40' wide 18' proscenium opening, 40' deep apron line to cyc. 

We assumed we would need at least two projectors. It would most likely have to be front projection. I think projecting from the fourth electric very near the cyc would be best and create the least amount of shadows. The electric only has our altman led cyc lights on it so there is plenty of space and power for the projectors. We would have to run the data to the projectors. We have three other electrics over the stage but they are much more crowded with the rest of the lighting plot and i feel shadows may be an issue moving further away form the Cyc.

The rear projections would need to stand up to a fair amount of ambient stage lighting. Also the reflection angle from our cat walk is a paion, and a design flaw of the theater in my opinion. So the cyc takes a lot of ambient lighting. 

As far as professional help, I am in Orlando FL so I have a few decent rental houses around that We would most likely rent from at first to test the concept before going all out on the purchase. Both SEAL and LMG are options I have started to look into for help. I would say a rough budget would be 15k for the eventual purchase, with the chance to maybe push it to 20k. 

When looking I just find so many different products and I don't know what they mean. I got the brand Christie from a college theatre in town and when i wen to their site i was overwhelmed with options. So any help and guidance would be great. 

Thanks


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## Joshualangman (May 18, 2013)

Also, make sure to plan for the design of the content well in advance. This is actually the most difficult part of projection. Get a really good projection designer and be clear about what visual style you're looking for.


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## museav (May 19, 2013)

RJD said:


> We assumed we would need at least two projectors. It would most likely have to be front projection. I think projecting from the fourth electric very near the cyc would be best and create the least amount of shadows. The electric only has our altman led cyc lights on it so there is plenty of space and power for the projectors. We would have to run the data to the projectors. We have three other electrics over the stage but they are much more crowded with the rest of the lighting plot and i feel shadows may be an issue moving further away form the Cyc.


You can't just locate a projector anywhere, you need to consider the throw distance (distance from the projection surface to the projector) supported for the image size involved and the allowable vertical and horizontal offsets from the image that can be accommodated by lens shift and/or keystone correction. These often become interdependent, for example a short throw lens may resolve a throw distance concern but in some cases may then also limit the vertical and/or horizontal offset possible. Optional lenses can also be a significant cost.

If you start looking at multiple projectors creating an edge blended image this aspect gets even more complex as you may want to avoid using much, if any, keystone correction in order for the images to edge blend properly. In your case I'm not sure two projectors would be a practical solution as you would have each projecting an almost square image. If you went edge blended you might be looking at something like three or four projectors in portrait mode.

One thing to consider with projectors is how 'mission critical' the projection is and how you address that in terms of hardware redundancy. If a lamp fails it may not be practical to stop a show and wait until you can change the lamp, so can you do without that projector or do you need to accommodate some form of reducdancy such as backup projectors already in place or using multiple lamp projectors? This becomes even more of a challenge with multiple projector and edge blended arrangments because all projectors have been matched at some point and any change to one may affect the resulting image.

If you have always on modules for the projector circuits that is probably fine but you do not want to power projectors off dimmers.

In case it is not clear, the overall point is that using projection can get rather complex and to be effective requires sufficient planning and budget. And as Joshua noted, even if you address all of the technical factors you are still dependent on the content.

FWIW, the difference would be negligible in most cases so I would not expect a bunch of venues to be swapping out 10k projectors for 12k projectors, if they are making that change it seems likely there are other factors involved such as resolution, input compatibility and so on.


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## metti (May 19, 2013)

With that size budget I would seriously consider renting instead of trying to buy. You're not going to get a decent media server, 1 or more decent 10+ks, and someone who can build good content for anywhere close to that purchase price. A decent 10k projector alone is closer to $35-50k.


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## RJD (May 20, 2013)

metti said:


> With that size budget I would seriously consider renting instead of trying to buy. You're not going to get a decent media server, 1 or more decent 10+ks, and someone who can build good content for anywhere close to that purchase price. A decent 10k projector alone is closer to $35-50k.




That price point is very high! At plasa I was working with a rep from High End Systems and he was quoting much lower prices. Do you have specific brands you are talking about?


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## museav (May 20, 2013)

RJD said:


> That price point is very high! At plasa I was working with a rep from High End Systems and he was quoting much lower prices. Do you have specific brands you are talking about?


You would need to assess what features and functionality are important to your application in order to determine what models may actually be appropriate but you apparently can get some 10k lumen, 1024x768 native resolution projectors with a lens for around $10,000, to which you then also have to add the cost for the associated mount, cabling, etc. However, I would expect a High End rep to be referencing Barco projectors and for 10k or greater lumens they currently seem to start at a MAP closer to $38K to $40k+ with a lens. You can also spend well over $70k for a 10,000 lumen or greater projector and lens.


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## dbaxter (May 20, 2013)

As it has been pointed out, the lumen power, projected size, surface, etc. all go into determining what you need. I just wanted to share what can be done with a 3500 lumen consumer grade ($700) projector from about 50 ft. away. This was our preset to _33 Variations_. So don't be afraid to experiment with something lower level than what a lot of the discussion here suggested.


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## ruinexplorer (May 20, 2013)

The two main schools of thought for projection design are 1) concept based - where the design drives the technology or 2) technology based - where you have a list of gear and your design must fit within those parameters. So, by you deciding that you want to jump into projection head first by purchasing equipment, you are essentially saying, this is what we always want to do. This is not wrong, but without having a background in this type of design, then you are limiting how you can grow. I like analogies, so here's one for you. If you were learning how to drive, would you immediately go for the sports car because, wow, it looks cool and you will look cool in it? Would you prefer to borrow or rent several types of cars to see what truly fits your style? After all, what if you want to go camping? It would be more difficult to take the sports car down the rutted dirt road. After you have learned what is most versatile and best performing for the types of productions you do, then it might make sense to purchase.

That being said, there is a benefit to purchasing some of the equipment up front. If you plan on using the projection equipment often throughout the year, then budget-wise it makes more sense to purchase some of it up front. This is where you need to know how to deal with the salesmen. I agree that purchasing used will have its benefits up front. You will get more bang for your buck, but you will be taking risks. First off, I recommend that you purchase from a reputable dealer and avoid craigslist or eBay (unless that is the outlet for a reputable dealer). Do your homework first by checking out various sources of information on projectors, screens, and various other components by using the sources in the wiki. By buying used and sourcing resources that your school may already have, you can definitely get started (though you will probably make some concessions in your design). LCD projectors will set you back less than their DLP counterparts. However, an LCD has a shorter lifespan before needing service due to how it is maintained and how it processes the light. Check out my article on projector maintenance for once you own the equipment. 

Things you need to consider for your design: Content (will you create it, purchase stock footage, or hire out the design, what format will it be in - codec and container), the driver for your content (media player, DVD, media server, tape), distribution of content and control (dual-head or triple-head-to-go, DAs, cable, router, switcher, etc), display (projector, screen/surface, monitor), and if there is a need for networking equipment. 

When considering content, if you have previously purchased the display devices, then you would be remiss to create or purchase content that would not optimally display on the gear you own. Obviously, you need to create content that can be used by your playback devices. Certain media players and servers will require a specific format as will optical players. You will ideally want the same aspect ratio and resolution for your content as the native resolution of your projector (or of your extended display if you are edge blending). Every time part of your equipment needs to digitally alter the image, you will lose some clarity.

For playback, you don't need to jump right into a media server. It really depends on how you intend to control your content and how much you intend to warp/blend it. You may be able to get by with PowerPoint or some of the free playback software (you want a dedicated computer for this). Remember, when you are creating your content, it does not need to play back in a standard screen format. You have the option to only show a portion of your image (front projection will still have video black where you aren't having an image). So, even though you have a wide cyc, you do not need to fill that with a single or blended image. If you have two or projectors, one which is SL, one SR, and possibly one C, then the set pieces can cover other portions of the back drop while the open area shows the scenic element being projected. This could potentially help with your light bounce.

As has been mentioned, where you plan on mounting the projector and how to get a signal to it is a large part of the design process. Part of the challenge with purchasing used projectors is that you will have more difficulty in having a blending the image due to difference in wear. Also, the some older projectors will have a greater limitation on how they can be positioned (portrait mode is relatively new in being supported by the manufacturers). You may not have enough tilt to get your image from an onstage batten. If you can throw the image from front of house, then you will need a long throw lens, which is less likely to come with a used projector and will easily cost an extra $3500-4000. However, some of your cabling issues will likely be solved by the shorter runs to your source!


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## museav (May 21, 2013)

dbaxter said:


> As it has been pointed out, the lumen power, projected size, surface, etc. all go into determining what you need. I just wanted to share what can be done with a 3500 lumen consumer grade ($700) projector from about 50 ft. away. This was our preset to _33 Variations_. So don't be afraid to experiment with something lower level than what a lot of the discussion here suggested.


Looks very nice, but if I am correct in that example you are projecting on a backdrop rather than projecting the entire backdrop, which is what I understood to be the goal here. That is why the intended use is such a critical factor, you could probably create some dramatic effects using much less costly and complex technical solutions but if the goal is to project full backdrops that fill the proscenium opening then technically and artistically that can represent a significantly different situation.

This is what ruinexplorer seemed to be addressing regarding fitting the design to the equipment or the equipment to the design. If the design goal is to project a full backdrop then that will tend to drive the related equipment toward the higher end solutions discussed. If that is not practical then the design and use of projection may have to fit what is technically possible. Neither approach is necessarily right or wrong, just two different approaches depending on the situation.


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## dbaxter (May 21, 2013)

Oh, I agree with both previous posts. I might even add the artistic considerations of the projection relative to the set design is a key factor in the final result. Our Artistic Director very seldom, if ever, has the whole backdrop washed with a projection because he feels they should be used more to highlight and suggest scenic changes rather than constitute the whole thing. And that may be, in part, because our equipment cannot overpower good face-light. So, as pointed out, you have a lot of gives and takes. Just starting out, without a lot of money, it might makes sense to just design for highlights.


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## metti (May 21, 2013)

RJD said:


> That price point is very high! At plasa I was working with a rep from High End Systems and he was quoting much lower prices. Do you have specific brands you are talking about?



A Christie Roadster or equivalent Barco tends to be on the higher end of that range if not higher and Panasonics are on the lower end. You can get an LCD Eiki for less but the big brands that are primarily being used in professional theatre are in that range.


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## LavaASU (May 21, 2013)

Well the MSRPs for the previous generation Christie Roadsters varies from $80k (10k) to $120k (20k). A 10k class Panasonic could be <$30k street (for 3-DLP). Looks like Panasonic has a 13000 lumen LCD model for around $13k street (from projector central). I'd certainly hesitate on the LCD ones because of burn through especially with that bright of a lamp...


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## ruinexplorer (May 21, 2013)

This is why you should consider purchasing manufacturer B-stock or from a rental house. Currently listed on Solaris is a used Barco SLM R8 for under $5,000 with lens and flight case (since you probably won't use it on all shows). This projector is ready for rigging as well as either analog or digital signals. Of course this would only be one projector at a 5:4 aspect ratio, which would not truly serve covering the full background. The point being, you can get high quality used projectors for relatively good value.

Another thing to mention. When considering the projector, beyond the chip/panel decision, you will also need to decide on lamp technology. Most of the lower powered projectors will use a smaller discharge lamp which can get you more hours per lamp (1000-2000), but you may need multiple lamps for full brightness. They are often cheaper to purchase replacements, but the color shift during their life is a bit dramatic. On the other hand, the high brightness projectors will often use a Xenon lamp which will provide fewer hours of operation (500-1000), but will have a purer white with less color shift over the life of the lamp. You will only need one lamp, but they cost is considerably more per lamp, though some savings will come with a relamp of the module instead of purchasing a completely new module. So, on a more restrictive budget, I generally recommend not going with the Xenon lamps due to cost.


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## BobHealey (May 21, 2013)

Xenon lamps also have their own special handling issues and PPE requirements when changing them.


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## ruinexplorer (May 22, 2013)

They do if you are handling the bare bulb. With Xenon projectors, unlike Xenon follow spots, you are handling a lamp module with the bulb fully enclosed. As long as the lamp is cool, the manufacturers require no PPE when changing the module. However, if you are a trained and experienced operator, Christie and Barco have options for the end user to replace the Xenon bulb in the lamp module which does require extreme care and PPE. The average user will not be doing this. As far as I know, I am the only one in my company currently doing this and we have several qualified projectionists (who attended the training class I arranged with the manufacturer).


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## BobHealey (May 22, 2013)

ruinexplorer said:


> They do if you are handling the bare bulb. With Xenon projectors, unlike Xenon follow spots, you are handling a lamp module with the bulb fully enclosed. As long as the lamp is cool, the manufacturers require no PPE when changing the module. However, if you are a trained and experienced operator, Christie and Barco have options for the end user to replace the Xenon bulb in the lamp module which does require extreme care and PPE. The average user will not be doing this. As far as I know, I am the only one in my company currently doing this and we have several qualified projectionists (who attended the training class I arranged with the manufacturer).



Things you learn. Every Xenon projector I've seen (35mm and 2K D Cinema) has been bare lamp in reflector, no module to swap. I won't change those things, I don't have the confidence I won't slip up.


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## ruinexplorer (May 22, 2013)

True, cinema projectors are a different ballgame.


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