# Video Monitor System Upgrade



## gafftaper (Dec 4, 2017)

Hi, So trying to keep up with everyone else I want to upgrade my video system as well. My theater has an SD camera, that feeds a TV in the Lobby, a mini TV stage right at the SM's panel, and three TV's in the dressingrooms. The system is all SD signal onto HD TV's. I want to upgrade to get an HD image in the lobby as well as add Two large HD TV's on the backside of the Proscenium wall, and possilbly a couple extra ports on the back wall to make it easy to feed another TV. (We get a lot of little kid shows and some schools like to have the kids all sit on stage behind the mid, so having a way to pull out a TV would be great). I don't really see a need to upgrade the video in the greenroom, it's not great but it's fine. IF we improve the camera, the image will be better even if I leave it an SD feed to this area. 

Below is a sketch. 

So here's what I'm wondering about. Wireless Video through the cinderblock wall into the lobby. Bad Idea or Terrible idea? It's the easiest solution, but I fear probably the worst idea. Thoughts on that? 

What is the best strategy for Daisy chaining the new backstage TV's video locations vs running separate cables? 

Any recommendations on a good video camera for the job. I'm sick of everything washing out or being too dark. I have a decent budget and want a good camera and I'm happy to pay a little extra if need. 

I kind of like the idea of having a PTZ remote controlled mount for the camera. I have a church rental every week and they would love being able to zoom in on the pastor. 

I also like the idea of being able to record on this upgrade. Thoughts on that? 

Any general advice would be appreciated.


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## MNicolai (Dec 4, 2017)

The more features you want, the higher the price tag goes. With a PTZ camera comes triple the cost with no better image quality, plus the expense of a controller.

Without PTZ, Marshall Electronics offers some very inexpensive fixed cameras you can park wherever you need to with the appropriately sized camera lens for the throw. That saves you a lot of image brightness over a PTZ at the back of the room zoomed all the way in, which throws usually 70%-90% of potential brightness away and ruins your image quality. Similarly, Black Magic makes some great, HDR cameras you can park an appropriate DSLR lens on and get an even better image if you don’t mind going with the operator-at-a-tripod or set-it-and-forget-it approach. The cost differential here is that it’s usually so much cheaper to go with fixed cameras and a switcher that you can afford to buy 3-4 fixed cameras for multiple angles over a single PTZ from one position.

Off the top of my head, I can tell you the better PTZ’s like Panasonic’s high end stuff will run you $7k just for the camera. Most of the stuff below $5k is meant for nearfield videoconferencing rooms and will suck in a theater application zoomed in.

If you have any existing cabling in place that’s worth hijacking, I would explore that. ZeeVee makes some great HDMI to RF modulators if you already have decent coax strung out to all of your TV’s. Then instead of putting a video decoder or HDBT receiver at each display you can just plug the coax into the TV and tune to channel 3 for the stage view with house mix feed, channel 4 for the conductor feed, channel 5 for the stage feed with production intercom loop, and you get the picture.

Given the choice, I always recommend pulling the cable. It’s almost never as hard anyone thinks, it always works, and it doesn’t undermine the point of paying for a better camera.

Another approach if you have solid WiFi everywhere is go with something like a Livestream HD31 or HD51 switcher. You can record live, record simultaneous for post-production editing, stream to your network, and do sharp looking graphics overlays. Like learning an Ion or an Element, there are also a ton of training videos available. Enough latency you wouldn’t want to do this for IMAG, but it’s well within the capabilities for a green room feed.

Again, if you have good WiFi and go with the right streaming option, you can park a $150 Chromebox behind each display and use Single App Kiosk mode to boot up to a window for viewing the stream at a predefined URL. Very scalable. If you park a wireless keyboard and mouse at any of those spots you can also override Kiosk mode on boot up to use the Chromebox as an impromptu web browser, collaboration station, call board, or presentation display.

A lot of people insist on PTZ because they think it’ll make their lives so much easier and because they grossly overestimate the smoothness of tracking a moving target, but my professional opinion in these systems is if you settle for less and go with fixed, you can afford to do so much more on the back end.


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## gafftaper (Dec 4, 2017)

Thanks @MNicolai . Yeah the PTZ was just a random, "if it doesn't add too much to the expense of doing this project it would be cool" sort of thing. Nothing I'm hooked on. What I really need is a camera with outstanding combination of Iris and auto focus abilities. My current camera is a mediocre Sony SD camera. It's always blown out and struggles for focus. 

My existing system is all SD over BNC cable with an Extron Distribution Amp. It's only about 6 years old so should all be in pretty good shape. 

The HDMI to RF modulator is a really cool idea. I've never heard of that before (I'm a armature in videoland). Does anyone have a recommended Brand/model? Could I simply put that inline before my Extron Distro Amp, plug in a new HD camera and throw BNC to Coax adapters on the ends of the existing runs and have an instant HD upgrade? It can't be that easy. 

I would like to keep the whole project in the $4,000-$5,000 range.


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## dbaxter (Dec 5, 2017)

Well, it's not much harder. Here are the two things I bought to go HDMI to Channel 3:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01H6OM8OI
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00GUS4A7A

Like you, we already had the old coax running to the lobby, dressing room, and band loft. Seems to be running fine. One word for setup - don't put those two items real close to each other. Don't stack them. A 6" separation does the trick. Otherwise you get banding on your monitors from some sort of interference between the two.


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## gafftaper (Dec 5, 2017)

dbaxter said:


> Well, it's not much harder. Here are the two things I bought to go HDMI to Channel 3:
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01H6OM8OI
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00GUS4A7A
> 
> Like you, we already had the old coax running to the lobby, dressing room, and band loft. Seems to be running fine. One word for setup - don't put those two items real close to each other. Don't stack them. A 6" separation does the trick. Otherwise you get banding on your monitors from some sort of interference between the two.



That's amazingly cheap Dave! Do you have them running through a distribution amplifier? Just curious if that messes things up.


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## Jay Ashworth (Dec 5, 2017)

We put in 2 PTZOptics PTX-20-SDI cameras this season, one in each house, for latecomer. And later, streaming -- we have lots of rights issues to clean up.

They were about $1600, which seems the absolute bottom of the PTZ space; they do HDMI, SDI, and MPEG4/IPunicast/IPmulticast (simultaneously, yes).

With the built in web control panel, they're hard to fly smoothly, and don't have "slow-go" to presets. We'll likely get a joystick controller when we do start to stream.

I also mentioned the TrendNet IP-314PI in another thread; these are perfectly serviceable if the 72deg horizontal angle isn't too wide for you; amazingly good video up to 4k, and damned fine at 720p, where I'm running them for security/situational awareness.


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## MNicolai (Dec 5, 2017)

My experience is with the ZeeVee ZvPro810i and 820i's, which go HDMI > RF in one or two channels respectively. Probably more machine than you're looking for but they're rock solid. Also also you to embed audio into the feed if you want to drive a dedicated output from your mixer/house mic/ALS into the RF feed.

Not sure which model of Extron amp you have but I imagine it won't work since modulated video is not the same as composite or SDI video. To do modulated video you'll need to swap out to an RF distribution amp or RF amp/splitter widget.

Alternatively, you could swap your DA out with a Black Magic VideoHub 12x12 and go with HD-SDI or 3G-SDI over your existing coax to SDI > HDMI widgets at your receivers. You can't readily flip between channels but you can hook multiple sources up to the SDI router and make assignments to each display at the router. Probably a cleaner transition for you to make.

Might want to double check what kind of coax cable you have to verify it is up to the task for higher resolutions/bandwidth.


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## dbaxter (Dec 5, 2017)

gafftaper said:


> That's amazingly cheap Dave! Do you have them running through a distribution amplifier? Just curious if that messes things up.



I think there is one in the dressing room that then goes off to the band loft. Sorry, haven't looked at in a while. (If it ain't broke, don't fix it.)


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## Calc (Dec 6, 2017)

Jay Ashworth said:


> We put in 2 PTZOptics PTX-20-SDI cameras this season, one in each house, for latecomer.



My church put in one of these. The only annoyance I've found (besides the no slow-go presets Jay mentions) is that to start the built-in streaming you change a setting, then restart the camera to apply it. All doable over the web interface, but every stream starts with the end of the pan/tilt/zoom encoder test.

When I'm there to run it, I'll use the booth computer to pull the feed from the camera into OBS, then stream it from there. That lets me add in other effects to the feed too (fades to pre/post service, PIP, etc.).


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## ruinexplorer (Dec 10, 2017)

I did a demo of one of Datavideo's PTZ HDBaseT cameras. I was hoping to go with their whole mobile kit for some of our special events, but the portable production studio wasn't ready yet. However, I was quite impressed at the 130' distance between the camera and the subject still getting an excellent image even in low light. I will probably demo it again next month now that the mobile kit is up to snuff. The nice thing is that the camera is not only HDBaseT, but it also has HDMI, SDI, and composite outputs. This might allow you to deal with both old and new systems until you can get it all up to speed. In addition, they do sell recording equipment. You could probably call them for a demo and see how it works in your space.


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## NickVon (Dec 10, 2017)

If you already have Coax run, is it RG6. You could track down a SDI camera, and SDI > "TV input connector" converter and be set. Blackmagic SDI to HDMI converters are priced in the sub 100$ range if want something basic but capable

At my Venue we have a Can XA35 (the model with an SDI out) mounted an a pipe in our booth. We route it's SDI output to a small viewing monitor by our Mac workstation, which also runs Qlab and Wirecast into an Blackmagic Ultra Studio. That our primary use for that camera, but if we need it feed back stage only I'have got a short jumper that we bypass the Mac, and send it's signal straight down our coax run to the Green Room. If I need both, I use the SDI out on the Ultrastudio box to feed the Green Room run. SDI splitters/distribution amplifiers also quite affordable on a institutional budget.

Our camera is located at a position where we can refocus or live adjusted if needed, but that may not be practical depending on your space. We looked at a PTZ camera and controller and opted not for that reason. We don't do a lot of live tracking and it's not hard to just refocus our camera from a wide shot to a podium shot if needed. 

I think the Canon XA35 at 2700$ has a very nice pictures, powerful camera feature set if needed, and the convenience of built in recording to Dual SD cards if renters or we need it.


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## gafftaper (Nov 28, 2018)

I got really busy and this project was put on hold. But I'm back at it now. Any new ideas on the best video camera to buy for a greenroom/lobby feed. It's about a 75' distance. My biggest concern is really the quality and speed of the auto Iris. My cable is labeled "Video Brilliance by Belden 4.5ghz HD-SDI". So I think that means I am in good shape for either an SDI or RF modulation solution. 

Are there any suggestions on how the SDI Camera and HDMI decoder box approach compares to the RF modulator approach? I think the RF modulator setup @dbaxter suggested would be a lot cheaper than buying HDMI decoders for every TV. 

The two cameras suggested before that are SDI are the Canon XA35 or the PTZOptics PTX-SDI. @NickVon, @Jay Ashworth, @Calc any thoughts on how your purchases are working out? How good is the auto Iris? 

@ruinexplorer did you buy those Datavideo PTZ cameras? Did you get something else? 

Thanks everyone!


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## ruinexplorer (Nov 28, 2018)

I did not buy the cameras. We got a second demo to use in the show conditions and it was good enough on monitors, but not for Imag, which was what we wanted. I needed something with a larger sensor or the ability to swap lenses to get more light to the sensor that it has. With the camera being closer, it was definitely passable and might have worked for a variety of one-offs. That whole project was put on a back burner though.


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## gafftaper (Nov 28, 2018)

ruinexplorer said:


> I did not buy the cameras. We got a second demo to use in the show conditions and it was good enough on monitors, but not for Imag, which was what we wanted. I needed something with a larger sensor or the ability to swap lenses to get more light to the sensor that it has. With the camera being closer, it was definitely passable and might have worked for a variety of one-offs. That whole project was put on a back burner though.


Yeah my booth is a lot closer to the stage than yours. 
Did you try them out in full light? 
One of the biggest issues I face is the opposite of yours, my camera is always getting blown out by too much light.


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## ruinexplorer (Nov 29, 2018)

Full light, they are awesome. I first played with them at NAB. I liked the range that they had from picking up stuff on the bright show floor, then zooming into a dark area of the high steel. When I put them closer in my theater during a rehearsal, they looked great. I just couldn't put them there for a show.


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## gafftaper (Nov 29, 2018)

I'm leaning towards the PTZOptics PTX-SDI in that it seems to have a really high quality lens setup so we could upgrade later to a multi-cam setup or recording if we wanted to, but for now I can just use the IR remote that comes with it to aim it and walk away for now when all I want is a high quality feed to the green room. That Datavideo PTZ would require me to go all the way and buy the remote switcher unit too.


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## NickVon (Nov 30, 2018)

The Canon XA35 works for us. in Auto Mode and it seems to do the light sensing just fine. (Friends venue has a PTZ that was like 7000$. It works great, looks great and they use it to record there shows (typically as just a steady wide show) I believe they leave there irs and settings set for clarity and no blow out at near Max stage light). so when the stage is dark or House lights are on the camera is not trying to adjust it self. It works for them. How much do you really need dramatic automatic changes in iris/aperture? 

A green room source IMO doesn't have a to be a recording or archival level video signal. Though I think any PTZ in the 7000$ range i'm sure has the flexibility and component quality you're looking for if budget allows. SDI to HDMI/DVI, etc converters (the little mini ones from BlackMagic) work great and if I recall are sub 50$ each.


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## rwhealey (Dec 1, 2018)

Still looking to do it for $4k-5k?

Does your district have a structured cabling contractor on-call? Pulling Cat6A to each display location would let you use HDBaseT now, and in the future use whatever IP-based video technology comes around when it is time to upgrade or replace electronics.


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