# door silencers...



## jlusardi (Feb 8, 2012)

Hi Everyone,
We just had another event in our auditorium tonight, and as per usual there were some people who had to enter and exit during the performances. While we try to limit entrance/exit to in between songs, or even between groups; that's not always very successful. We get people entering and exiting anyway. And the doors are kind of noisy when they close, which is distracting and annoying. I was asked to look into door silencers for push to exit doors. I was also told the door silencers need to be ADA compliant. 
Questions:
-Do you use door silencers in your auditorium?
-If so which ones do use?

Thanks in advance,
-Jaclyn


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## Footer (Feb 8, 2012)

Key the doors open or remove the catches on the locks. Crash bars and silence don't really go together well. 

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## josh88 (Feb 8, 2012)

Like footer said, my solution was to unscrew the catches on the door frame, that latching ( in my case at least) is what caused most of the sound.


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## zmb (Feb 8, 2012)

Not sure if this is legal or not, but gaff tape over the latch keeps non-unlockable doors unlocked and keeps the latch from closing for a silent solution


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## josh88 (Feb 8, 2012)

Gaff won't work on crash bar style doors, the type often leading to lobbies and such, because they catch at the top and bottom usually. 


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## chausman (Feb 8, 2012)

My middle school (4 years old) had crash bars installed on almost every door, and when you unlock them, you can actually look the crash bar in, so the door isn't even latched. They are almost silent that way. The high school has the crash bars that make lots of noise for the outer doors, the inner doors have bars, but don't actually do anything.


josh88 said:


> Gaff won't work on crash bar style doors, the type often leading to lobbies and such, because they catch at the top and bottom usually.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk


 
If you hold the crash bar itself in with the gaff, it'll work.


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## Toffee (Feb 8, 2012)

We dog all our doors open, which is just an Alan key on the face of the crash bar that locks the door open and you don't have to unlock the actual door and it keeps the latch in the door which normally makes most of the noise. Also make sure that all of your weather stripping in the door is nice and fits snugly, metal of the door hitting the metal of the frame may also be part of the issue.


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## josh88 (Feb 8, 2012)

chausman said:


> If you hold the crash bar itself in with the gaff, it'll work.


 
That's true, but from an aesthetic standpoint I don't want audience in my theatre looking at bars that are taped down on the main entry doors. Just doesn't look good or professional. As far as I been able to, tell my doors don't have the ability to lock the crash bar open so that it doesn't catch like Toffee mentioned. It's a nice feature to have, I wish they did. Even after I took the latches off the frame, they still hit wood on metal frame fairly hard and I actually just put up a bit of weather stripping to muffle the thud and between those to things I finally got them pretty quiet. It really needed that bit of padding.


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## zmb (Feb 8, 2012)

chausman said:


> My middle school (4 years old) had crash bars installed on almost every door, and when you unlock them, you can actually look the crash bar in, so the door isn't even latched.


That seems common now, my high school (0 years old) has some classrooms like that along with rubber strip around the frame, doors are nice and quiet. Bonus is that they stay open when opened fully with the closer assembly and no magnet.


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## venuetech (Feb 9, 2012)

It is likely that the existing door closer can be adjusted for quiet operation. Usually there are two or three adjustments "swing speed" and "latch speed" and some times a "back check".

you can find some basic info on this webpage.
How to Adjust Your Door Closer




If you can find the model # and manufacture you can likely get the specific instructions.

set a slow swing speed with a latch speed just fast enuf to latch the door.

DO NOT REMOVE those adjustment screws!!! (it will make a very big mess) no more than a 1/2 turn at a time.


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## tjrobb (Feb 9, 2012)

Make sure the door is NOT a fire door before you mess with the catch. The catch is required hardware for it to be fire rated. Check the hinge side (actual side of the door) of the door for a metal tag, if there is one it most likely is fire or smoke rated, the tag will let you know.


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## ack (Feb 9, 2012)

tjrobb said:


> Make sure the door is NOT a fire door before you mess with the catch. The catch is required hardware for it to be fire rated. Check the hinge side (actual side of the door) of the door for a metal tag, if there is one it most likely is fire or smoke rated, the tag will let you know.


 
Key point. If the door can be dogged open it is likely not a fire door. If it is a fire door the latch is to maintain the seal. Gaff taping the latch would be circumventing this requirement and "bad thing" to do.

Venuetech also makes a good point the adjustments can help reduce the noise but in my experience it will not eliminate it. At that point the only solution I have found is to train ushers and crews to hold the crash bar down and let it catch as quietly as possible. FYI, this is not a very satisfying solution nor will it make you particularly popular.


Paul


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## jlusardi (Feb 9, 2012)

Thanks so much, this is all very helpful and good information to know. Has anyone used the door silencers mentioned in this blog post: What is a Door Silencer? « Commercial Hardware Solutions

If so how effective are they? If you haven't used them, do you think they would be effective at reducing if not eliminating the noise of a closing door?


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## sk8rsdad (Feb 9, 2012)

jlusardi said:


> Thanks so much, this is all very helpful and good information to know. Has anyone used the door silencers mentioned in this blog post: What is a Door Silencer? « Commercial Hardware Solutions
> 
> If so how effective are they? If you haven't used them, do you think they would be effective at reducing if not eliminating the noise of a closing door?



It's a rubber bumper. If your noise is caused by the crashing of the door into the jamb then it would help reduce that noise. If it caused by the latch mechanism then it wouldn't help at all. The presence of the rubber bumper may introduce an air gap that either changes the fire rating of the door, or allows ambient exterior noise into the room, so it might do more harm than good.


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## venuetech (Feb 9, 2012)

As you may have figured out by now, a door can make a lot of different sounds. It is unlikely that any one product will be the entire solution to your problem. What you need to do is to study the door and the noise it is making and try to apply some of the various solutions presented in the thread. 
I do believe that i have seen similar products installed on door frames. It is likely very effective. but it will not silence a door that is slamming shut. nor will it have any effect on latch or crash bar noise.


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## Van (Feb 10, 2012)

To echo a point already made. You have to make sure the door in question is not part of the emergency egress plan and thatit is not considered a fire barrier. Doors with crash bars are desinged to operate the way they do because a fire with sufficient gusto can create enough draw as to suck doors open. if you have taped, wedged, blocked or otherwise removed safety devices this could lead to not only someone getting hurt but into the door not operating as intended and allowing a fire to spread over a much larger area. 

As for making adjstments to the Closure device. Most city and the ADA have requirements for how long a losure must hod a door open at any given pint of it's travel. MOST closures have two ranges the stage that holds the door mostly open then the stage that bufferes it's movement right before contact with the jamb. There is a time spe for each of these phases. Check with local codes prior to messing with these devices.


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## teqniqal (Feb 10, 2012)

jlusardi said:


> . . . the doors are kind of noisy when they close, which is distracting and annoying. I was asked to look into door silencers for push to exit doors. I was also told the door silencers need to be ADA compliant.
> Questions:
> -If so which ones do use?
> -Jaclyn


 
As mentioned by other posters, you must first determine if the door is a fire door before you attempt any modifications to it. If you are really serious about learning about fire doors, have the school (library?) purchase the NFPA 80: Standard for Fire Doors and Other Opening Protectives, 2010 Edition and / or the *NFPA* Owner's Guide: Swinging Fire Doors with Builders Hardware Annual Safety Inspections.

As to specific products, you might have your school's architect look at specifying a retrofit of the *Von Duprin QEL series* products, they are specifically engineered to be quiet. A door, frame, and all the attendant hardware are a *system* that _must work together_, so getting someone involved that understands the code issues and other considerations (including ADA compliance) is vital to the success and legality of any upgrades you might plan. If your school is investing in these types of improvements, they should also consider having magnetic door holders installed so that the doors can be legally propped open, too.

The most expedient and least expensive solution is to train your staff and students proper door etiquette, and then see that your doors are manned to help the audience members exit quietly. Push the crash-bar until the latch releases, then push the door gently. Hold the crash-bar in while the door closes, then gently release the crash-bar.


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## marmer (Feb 17, 2012)

If your venue is large, most likely all your exit doors have to be fire-rated and have to latch. It can be a huge issue. I am amused that fire code requires non-proppable, secure latching doors in fire exits, but it does. Just what you want when you are trying to get a lot of people out! Also, managing the tension of the closers requires a surprising amount of maintenance. ADA requires that they be fairly easy to open and the fire code requires that they have to latch. You also want them to self-latch if you have a space that you want to keep locked most of the time. Generally, over time, if you have cheap hydraulic closers they will speed up and make the door slam. Not only is this noisier but it can be dangerous if they slam too fast. You will have to adjust the little valves on the closer with an Allen wrench to find a happy medium between too slow and too fast.


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## DuckJordan (Feb 17, 2012)

marmer said:


> If your venue is large, most likely all your exit doors have to be fire-rated and have to latch. It can be a huge issue. I am amused that fire code requires non-proppable, secure latching doors in fire exits, but it does. Just what you want when you are trying to get a lot of people out! Also, managing the tension of the closers requires a surprising amount of maintenance. ADA requires that they be fairly easy to open and the fire code requires that they have to latch. You also want them to self-latch if you have a space that you want to keep locked most of the time. Generally, over time, if you have cheap hydraulic closers they will speed up and make the door slam. Not only is this noisier but it can be dangerous if they slam too fast. You will have to adjust the little valves on the closer with an Allen wrench to find a happy medium between too slow and too fast.



The reason that they require to shut in case of fire is due to containing the fire. Most large venues are attached to other buildings. Which is easier to contain one large venue? or one large facility?


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## marmer (Feb 17, 2012)

Yes, I know why it's that way. It is a pain when you are trying to get a lot of people out quickly, but once you get them out you want the door to close and latch on its own. It also makes sense because during most of a twenty-four hour period you DON'T have an audience in most venues.


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## teqniqal (Feb 18, 2012)

DuckJordan said:


> The reason that they require to shut in case of fire is due to containing the fire. Most large venues are attached to other buildings. Which is easier to contain one large venue? or one large facility?



Often overlooked with fire barriers and fire doors is the rationale behind the requirement.

1. Closed doors (including Fire Curtains) don't have to react to a fire or smoke event. They are already in the most effective position.

2. Fire Doors and Fire Shutters in air ducts are there to prevent the spread of smoke and / or fire. Both can cause substantial damage to property and people. The spreading of smoke between compartments makes it more difficult for patrons to make a safe egress from the building. This is why fire doors must close and latch automatically behind you after you pass through them.

3. Fire Doors and Fire Shutters in air ducts are there to reduce the amount of fresh air that enters a space so the fire is effectively starved of oxygen and suffocated. This was one of the design flaws of the famous Iroquois Theatre fire in Chicago. The backstage door was hinged to open inward and was not automatic closing. When the stage crew exited through it, it was left open and allowed fresh air onto the stage which fed the fire and pushed the smoke out into the audience area under the snagged fire curtain that did not open. The dark black smoke filled the audience chamber rapidly because the overstage Smoke Vents failed to open to allow the hot toxic gasses to rise. Additional fresh air supply came from the exit doors (well, those that were opened) which did not automatically close behind the people that exited.

4. Fire Doors must latch because the atmospheric pressure differential across the door opening can be substantial and can literally blow an unlatched door open. This is also why the automatic closer must have enough force to cause the door to latch upon closure. An improperly adjusted automatic closer may close the door 99% of the way, but if it does not force the door to trip past the latching point, it can and will be blown back open by a fire. From the day-to-day operational perspective, this can create security breach points that may allow unwelcome guests into an otherwise locked facility.

The annual inspection of Fire Doors is an NPFA requirement, as is keeping records of those inspections. The intent of the inspections is to confirm that the door closers, latches, exit hardware, and structural integrity have not been compromised, and if they have, to report the condition and see that corrections are implemented. The most common illegal modification to Fire Doors is the willful addition of deadbolts and/or kick-down door props and/or defeating the automatic door closer mechanism. The use of other objects to prop Fire Doors open is not a direct modification to the door itself, however, it is equally illegal in that it defeats the automatic operation of the door system.

The only legal ways to hold a Fire Door open are:
1. Have it held by a magnetic holder that is connected to the Fire Alarm System, or
2. Have it held open by an automatic door closer that is connected to the Fire Alarm System, or
3. Have a person hold the door open.

The only legal way to defeat (dog) a Fire Door latch is:
1. To have a latch mechanism that electrically retracts / releases it under the command of the Fire Alarm System.


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## Les (Feb 18, 2012)

teqniqal said:


> 4. Fire Doors must latch because the atmospheric pressure differential across the door opening can be substantial and can literally blow an unlatched door open.



I was going to mention something about this. I've seen a lot of backdraft and flashover videos (I was interested in becoming a firefighter at one point -- who knows; I still might). The atmospheric influences a fire can have are amazing; even in areas a good distance from the fire itself.


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## tdeater (Mar 14, 2012)

I have been fighting this problem for years in our theater. If the bars can not be dogged, they are probably fire doors, and being theater exit doors, they are very likely to be fire doors. Staying on top of adjusting the door closer helps a lot, but it is hard to balance changing air pressures in the building. I have had limited luck as well taking the door apart and adding stick on felt pads to some of the more rattly places, but anything that interferes with the door operation is not good. The best solution I have found is just working on the adjustments of the closers. I re-tweak mine frequently, especially during the spring and fall times when the building airflows change from heating to cooling. A solution I am looking at are new closers that will let the door close normally, then actually pull it shut slowly the last couple of inches. I am not sure what that feature is called though.


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## derekleffew (Mar 14, 2012)

tdeater said:


> ...A solution I am looking at are new closers that will let the door close normally, then actually pull it shut slowly the last couple of inches. I am not sure what that feature is called though.


Never seen it on full-sized doors, but on cabinet drawers and doors, it's known as [URL='http://www.amazon.com/Cabinet-Absorbers-Hydraulic-Adapters-Adjustable/sim/B003M1ZOGY/2"]Soft Close (Amazon link)[/URL].


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## teqniqal (Mar 15, 2012)

derekleffew said:


> Never seen it on full-sized doors, but on cabinet drawers and doors, it's known as [URL='http://www.amazon.com/Cabinet-Absorbers-Hydraulic-Adapters-Adjustable/sim/B003M1ZOGY/2"]Soft Close (Amazon link)[/URL].



Although a useful item, if it is not Fire-Rated hardware, you cannot legally add it to a Fire Door. The entire door assembly (frame, door panel, windows, hinges, latches, catches, handles, crash-bars, etc.) must all be rated as an assembly.


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## museav (Mar 16, 2012)

Some great info presented. Just to provide some idea to those who don't deal with this on a regular basis, on many commercial construction projects there is a consultant involved whose scope of work is specifically to address door and window hardware. When you deal with spaces like theatres it can be important that this party be familiar with the specific requirements of that type of venue or that they be provided appropriate input and their work reviewed.


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