# upgrade of lighting control board - need advice



## topshelf1227 (Oct 19, 2011)

I was given the word from my boss that my venue was approved grant money to upgrade all tech equipment. I am the lighting tech in the venue and am looking to upgrade our equipment. 

Here's what we have: 

ETC Express 125/250 board
6 Elation power spot 575 ML fixtures
Electralite Intelligent lighting Control board
92 stage lights -including 3 color strip lights above stage (RGBA), 2 Par cans above stage, and 40 ETC Source Fours on the front bar and side bars. 

The ETC runs the stage lights and the Electralite runs the elation lights. 

Our theater is a small multipurpose venue that presents shows 2-3 times a week in a variety of genres: theater shows, comedy shows, children's theater, and concerts (Most of our work is in concerts) - jazz, rock, adult contemporary, classical, country rock, etc. The seating capacity is 261. The venue was a former movie theater. 

Some of the acts we've had include: Roger McGuinn, The Subdudes, Constantine Maroulis, David Sanborn, Bernie Williams, Richard Marx, Vanilla Fudge, Carl Palmer of ELP, Howard Jones, Nils Lofgren, Average White Band, Sonny Landreth, Aztec Two Step, Blackmore's Night, Big Bad Voodoo Daddy.


Here's where I need help. I would like to upgrade our lighting board - I am looking for ONE board to control all lights in the theater. Specifically, I would like something that is similar in familiarity to the ETC or something that I can learn to use and run in a matter of a few hours since we have shows frequently and I will not have weeks nor months to learn something new. I would love touch screen capability but most importantly, I am looking for something that will not be outdated in a week (discontinued), something that I can design offline and load and tweak prior to show time, something that has "quick looks" that can be saved to the board and pulled up for those days that a children's show is in the theater and the venue wants to bring up a simple wash on stage, something that visiting artists' lighting designers would want to use when they came to the venue and wanted to add their own LED lights or moving lights, etc. 

I took over the lighting designer position after teaching myself how to operate the ETC and Electralite and the original guy getting ousted. I have no real formal training though I am very quick to learn. So I am not looking for anything that is extremely complex.

I was looking at the Leprecon LPC 96V, and the ETC Ion. Can anyone offer some advice? I was told to research and move quickly (by tomorrow- that's how quickly) 

We were given a grant of 70K USD for upgrades of technical equipment - sound and lights. The budget I would have would be somewhere in the neighborhood of 10K USD, but the less I spend, the more we can use for sound equipment.


Thanks!


----------



## DuckJordan (Oct 19, 2011)

Honestly tours are going to want grandma or hog equip its the most common at least for tours that come through ours we have 2 expressions and two obsession 2s so I would vote the etc route since the on has been gone for a while and they still service ours.

Just my two cents 

Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk


----------



## topshelf1227 (Oct 19, 2011)

DuckJordan said:


> Honestly tours are going to want grandma or hog equip its the most common at least for tours that come through ours we have 2 expressions and two obsession 2s so I would vote the etc route since the on has been gone for a while and they still service ours.
> 
> Just my two cents
> 
> Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk



So you would say the ETC Ion?


----------



## soundlight (Oct 19, 2011)

None of those tours are going to be expecting top of the line lighting consoles. I would get an ETC ION with a 2x20 fader wing (mabe 2 fader wings for a live venue like yours) and 2x 19" ELO touchscreen monitors (there's a specific model that works with the ION). The ION however will not be exactly a rider friendly board. If the act is bringing in lights, in my experience, they tend to also bring in a console.

If you were going for rider-acceptable for a list of acts like that you'd be going with an Avo Pearl or a Hog. Neither of which I think would be good for the venue. I think though that if you're there so that you can program for any road LDs that you get you should be fine.


----------



## texskittles (Oct 19, 2011)

Between those two, the Ion is going to be easier to learn coming from the Express, and the Moving Light capabilities are not too bad to learn (I did it in a day). I'd request a training session from ETC about operating your movers on the Ion and spend some good time with the manual. If you do that, you won't be disappointed.


----------



## SteveB (Oct 19, 2011)

See about renting an Ion package for a weekend or 2. Find a shop that has touch screens and get 2, as well as at least a 40 fader wing.

Then get the system a few days early and spend time getting configured and finding your way around, then do a show or 2 on it.

I operate an Ion with 2 - 2x40 wings and dual touch screens and in the retrospective of 2 years of operations, I am very, very glad I purchased the 2 touch screens as they make life with ML's a ton easier. I've included a screen shot of my left screen that shows a Direct Select page on the left TS with, from bottom to top, the Group control for immediate access to the ML's, which up to this Monday are 6 High End Studio Spots CMY/Zooms, and after that add 6 Martin MAC700 Profiles. I then have a set of Focus Palettes, then above that a ton of pre-built gobo and image selections (you can expand that section for more options), then pre-built colors above that. 

My right screen has the lower half configured with as many as 50 or more presets for instant "look" selection, with the presets a collection of the Fixtures, at selected colors, position and with/out beam attributes, all ready for one button selection. You can use the Sneak or Sneak, Time to fade in/out any preset. Everything gets labeled and positioned where you want it. 

Or you can do similar things by building to subs, though I tend to use the subs for conventional looks and for inhibit subs for the ML intensities, as well as having as many as 6 or more effects ready to run (figure 8, ballyhoo, can-can, etc...). So I can do a Sneak, Time, 3, Preset (All to DC), then add an effect off a sub. 

In short a poor man's Whole Hog, with the only shortcoming (IMO) being a clunky method to control effect rate that requires a couple of button pushes, but I get better at busking one-off's of acts I've never seen before, each time I use the desk.

Paid about $14,500 for the 1024 address desk, 3 wings, RRFU and dual touch screens ($650 ea. and worth every penny), or about $13,000 with just 2 wings, this was 2 years ago so prices will have gone up.

EDIT: Some add'l thoughts. The Ion does have an off-line editor, but it's not a visualizer, so you won't find it useful to pre-build any ML looks. The system uses a hard drive with USB for file transfer, so you can keep multiple kinds of shows ready to load, kids, meetings, R&R, whatever, thus you don't have to re-build every time. 

The Ion may be the easiest to get simple stuff up and running, especially coming off an Express. It is very easy to add add'l gear, ML's or LED's, with ETC doing a good job of installing profiles as well as keeping them updated.

Other options are the Chamys Magic Q, which is well regarded. Also do a similar search on the LightNetwork.


----------



## mstaylor (Oct 19, 2011)

Definitely the Ion, stay away from the Leprecon, the curve is steeper because it does things quite a bit different. If an act doesn't like your Ion, let them patch their board to the DMX and have at it. The Ion does have an offline editor so that is also helpful.


----------



## shiben (Oct 19, 2011)

topshelf1227 said:


> We were given a grant of 70K USD for upgrades of technical equipment - sound and lights. The budget I would have would be somewhere in the neighborhood of 10K USD, but the less I spend, the more we can use for sound equipment.
> 
> 
> Thanks!


 
I would find an Ion, with or without touchscreens (either is doable, TS just makes it easier). Then Buy some more PARs as well. Do you really need lots of new sound gear? LX always seems to get screwed by the noise boys...


----------



## meatpopsicle (Oct 19, 2011)

shiben said:


> I would find an Ion, with or without touchscreens (either is doable, TS just makes it easier). Then Buy some more PARs as well. Do you really need lots of new sound gear? LX always seems to get screwed by the noise boys...


 
I go along with all the others. Get an Ion. I run mine with a single touchscreen on the right but I don't have any movers. With movers the 2nd Touch screen would be the way to go.

Additionally I would love to visit your venue. I live in the area. Feel free to contact me off site if I can be any assistance.

eiread at earthlink.net


----------



## TimMiller (Oct 19, 2011)

Personally I'd go with a road hog. It will fit riders requesting the hog3 and will run anything you throw at it. It also has 2 built in touch screens. The learning curve between etc and hog is very easy. They program almost identically. I have never seen a rider requesting an etc console.


----------



## mstaylor (Oct 19, 2011)

TimMiller said:


> Personally I'd go with a road hog. It will fit riders requesting the hog3 and will run anything you throw at it. It also has 2 built in touch screens. The learning curve between etc and hog is very easy. They program almost identically. I have never seen a rider requesting an etc console.


I agree that the hog3 is better for filling riders but the Ion fills everything else they do and can do what they need for their concert stuff. If they have been pulling off shows with an Express then they will be in hog heaven with an Ion. Sorry for the pun.


----------



## Footer (Oct 19, 2011)

mstaylor said:


> I agree that the hog3 is better for filling riders but the Ion fills everything else they do and can do what they need for their concert stuff. If they have been pulling off shows with an Express then they will be in hog heaven with an Ion. Sorry for the pun.


 
We have most of the acts come through our smaller space that you listed. Most of those acts are house LD and look per song/sit on your hands. A Hog would be overkill... plus you would have to buy two to make sure you can do a show. Your not filling riders because none of those acts carry LDs... the the few that do will take whatever you can give them. So, get whatever you feel comfortable with is what you should go with. An Ion would do it.


----------



## topshelf1227 (Oct 19, 2011)

Let me clarify and ask some more Qs.

99% of the shows that we do the artist only requires that our LD run the show. only that 1% have actually come in to do it for themselves. In those 1% cases, 75% ask me to show them the board and design the show so they can be the Lightboard Op for the night. The other 25% of that 1% do bring their own stuff. I think in the 1.5 years I've been doing this job, only two artists brought their own board. 

I am really self-trained so I have to make sure that I can figure it out on my own for the most part. I never went to school for LD, never received any formal training for LD etc. So the buzz words and fancy things I may not know how to do. I use the express to program "looks" into subs and use the subs to run the show live. I don't do cues unless it's for children's shows (which I do know how to do pretty well - I designed and ran a full production of Beauty and the Beast, Seussical Jr. and Godspell). I do use the cues on the intelligent light board. I design basic looks and color schemes and program them into the 24 cue buttons on the Electralite. I would like to learn more and make my job easier. I have run shows where I am using the intelligent light board, the ETC for stage lights and bumps, and the followspot! Talk about multitasking! I will say that I took the manual and the Express offline editor and taught myself the board overnight. Literally.

I also want to make sure that if my boss says the cost for my equipment would be too prohibitive, I have answers and a back up plan. She did say I should make a wish list and then a realistic list when I just told her that the price could be in the neighborhood of $14K. So if that will be the cost, I have to come up with solid reasons why we should spend that $ on what I am asking. (will not need to be upgraded at any time, can easily handle what the venue will use if for and it's not too much for what we run there, has ability to work in conjunction with other equipment if a band brings in LED's, for example). 


The issue with the riders has not and will not ever be a problem. I run 99% of the shows now. But I do want the ease of use so that if need be, the venue has a way of bringing up simple looks in an "idiot proof way" that wouldn't require me to go there all the time. This is not my primary job, and there may be days where I will be unavailable. So can someone else step in and run this? Can I program from home and save it to flash drive and upload it at the venue so it can be run with minimal prep time at the venue? 

Thanks to all for the feedback. 

Here's some videos of my work and my venue in action: Some were when I first began. This will give you all a better idea what the venue looks and plays like. 

THE CHURCH - Comedown - Boulton Center - Bay Shore - Long Island - 23 APR 2010 - YouTube

Carbon Leaf - The War Was in Color - YMCA Boulton Center - 1/14/11 - YouTube

Carbon Leaf - Live in Bay Shore NY - YouTube

Subdudes @ Boulton Center, Bayshore LI, "The Rain Song" 12/3/2009 - YouTube

Toad The Wet Sprocket New Song Friendly Fire At The Boulton Center April 4th, 2011 - YouTube

Another question...what can I assume to spend on the console and accessories? And where should I go for purchasing one? 

Keep the ideas and suggestions and comments coming everyone! They really help me make an informed decision and help me approach my boss and eventually shop around for this.


----------



## chausman (Oct 19, 2011)

Accessories are usually limited to some little liter, and a dust cover. 

I would suggest an Ion, like everyone else, but I would go with two non-touch screens, and go with more fader wings. If you prefer to busk then record shows, you'll want more subs/channels that are easy to get to. 

Or, get only one touchscreen for the movers, and a 2x20 and a 1x10 fader. 1x20 if you can. 

A good reason to upgrade would be much better control over your movers (and a lot of expand ability for later). It is something that a lot of people can pick up fairly quickly, and get trained on without too much hassle. There is an offline editor you can use to program the entire show (if you feel so inclined to) and edit it later off site. Guests can use that to get things started, then you come in with the actual console to finish. And, saving involves a thumb drive instead of a floppy disk. And you can save multiple shows on the console itself. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Footer (Oct 19, 2011)

topshelf1227 said:


> Let me clarify and ask some more Qs.
> 
> 99% of the shows that we do the artist only requires that our LD run the show. only that 1% have actually come in to do it for themselves. In those 1% cases, 75% ask me to show them the board and design the show so they can be the Lightboard Op for the night. The other 25% of that 1% do bring their own stuff. I think in the 1.5 years I've been doing this job, only two artists brought their own board.
> 
> ...


 
Wow. We are getting exactly the same shows.

We have debated this one over and over around here. In our small space with have an Insight, in the larger room we have an express250. Just like you, if someone wants to run our console they rarely know anything beyond "fader goes up, lights come on". I think you could possibly be in Element territory if money becomes an issue. I would not go with anything programmer based such as Chamsys/GrandMA/Hog just for simplicity sake. As far as where to buy, there are plenty of dealers in the city. If you want to come up the creak a bit, BMI is just North of me along with Production Advantage just a bit north of that. I would not fret too much over extra fader wings or stuff like that... you don't need it for your program. Get a fader wing and the main wing. Touchscreens are nice but not necessary for what you are doing.


----------



## meatpopsicle (Oct 19, 2011)

chausman said:


> Accessories are usually limited to some little liter, and a dust cover.
> 
> I would suggest an Ion, like everyone else, but I would go with two non-touch screens, and go with more fader wings. If you prefer to busk then record shows, you'll want more subs/channels that are easy to get to.
> 
> ...



I disagree. I believe that the setup that mentioned above had a 2x20 Wing. 40 handles, IMO, is plenty and the advantage of more than that doesn't outweigh the facility that 2 touchscreens will have with regard to movers.

The Ion is clunky without touchscreens.


----------



## chausman (Oct 19, 2011)

meatpopsicle said:


> The Ion is clunky without touchscreens.


 
I disagree with that. It's more complicated, but if you have enough palettes, it can be useful. 

And, I did edit my post, after thinking about it a little more.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## SteveB (Oct 19, 2011)

chausman said:


> Accessories are usually limited to some little liter, and a dust cover.
> 
> I would suggest an Ion, like everyone else, but I would go with two non-touch screens, and go with more fader wings. If you prefer to busk then record shows, you'll want more subs/channels that are easy to get to.
> 
> ...


 
I'm going to disagree with Chausman on this. After 2 years on an Ion busking R&R, as well as everything else from straight plays, to opera to kids shows, I'd trade back one of my 3 fader wings and keep the dual touch screens, which in retrospective, were the 2 items that paid off the most (except the console itself) in terms of functionality.

You can run a half dozen ML's as well as some LED's using 2 faders as inhibit subs for the non conventionals and still have 38 faders for statics. Yes, get another fader wing, maybe a 2x10 to help things along, but to run movers and the newer gear, the touch screens are really the way to go. Thing about the layout for a minute. You can put 40 playbacks for ML looks, actually less then that as you want a few for effects, so maybe 36 or so subs and use up an entire wing. Or you can put 50 playbacks on 50 Presets and use up a lot less hardware. With a tab open for a Direct Select of presets, it's a arrow up on screen for 51-100, arrow down for 101-150 and it changes nothing but the presets. That's ton's easier then paging subs, which pages conventionals as well as the effects at the same time. Using Recall from for an instant change, or Sneak and a preset press does a transition in time. This is (to me) the easiest way to get the most out of the desk.

FWIW, I believe an Ion is in the +7,000 range, with a 2x20 fader wing around $1900, a 2x10 at $900, with touch screens under $700 ea. Thus a basic Ion with 60 faders and screens would be $12,000 or so, maybe a bit more. Add a WiFi router and a iPod/Phone//Pad or Droid phone/Pad and the $50 ETC Apple or Android app and you have a wireless remote. 

But to re-emphasize, you can't do pre-viz with the off-line editor, so the idea of building a show at home and e-mailing the show file probably won't happen unless you can get the OLE to connect to a stand-alone visualization program, which others have done. Perhaps researching that on the ETC Connect site would be a thought.


----------



## soundlight (Oct 19, 2011)

TimMiller said:


> Personally I'd go with a road hog. It will fit riders requesting the hog3 and will run anything you throw at it. It also has 2 built in touch screens. The learning curve between etc and hog is very easy. They program almost identically. I have never seen a rider requesting an etc console.


 
I've found that busking rigs made of mostly conventionals with the Road Hog to be a worse decision than using a Leprecon LPX. 10 faders just doesn't cut it. And the cost for just 10 more faders is rather high, IMO, and they take up a lot more space at FOH than an ION + Wing. Since the programming style is so similar, I don't see a problem with specifying an ION when most of the acts aren't going to have their own LDs.


----------



## cfd701 (Oct 19, 2011)

I use an ION with 1 touch screen, a 2X20 fader wing. I have about 35 movers, some LEDS and about 250 conventionals(give or take). I came from using an ETC Obsession and have not had any problem. We do music acts but I have time to write cues so I dont do a lot on the fly. One thing is that we purchased the wireless remote and I find the APP for my Iphone to work much better!! 
Its a great board.


----------



## mstaylor (Oct 20, 2011)

Footer said:


> We have most of the acts come through our smaller space that you listed. Most of those acts are house LD and look per song/sit on your hands. A Hog would be overkill... plus you would have to buy two to make sure you can do a show. Your not filling riders because none of those acts carry LDs... the the few that do will take whatever you can give them. So, get whatever you feel comfortable with is what you should go with. An Ion would do it.


I completely agree. The Ion fills all the needs,except directly filling riders, and as you say most don't carry LDs anyway, so the Hog would be overkill and limiting at the same time.


----------



## jglodeklights (Oct 20, 2011)

Third opinion here? 

Buy an Element. 250 or 500 channels will probably be more than overkill since either way you get 1024 outputs. Remember, EOS family products define a channel as an entire fixture/device or grouping of fixtures/devices with identical outputs, not just one parameter of that fixture/device. Faders for subs/channels are built in. 

I also question touch screens with an ION/EOS/Element. With properly laid out palette sheets and magic sheets, accessing palettes and channels from the hard keys can often be quicker than trying to access them via the touchscreen- you don't have to move your hand from where it already is to hit the appropriate palette button and then enter the appropriate number. I've used the ION with touch screens, touch screen, 1 screen and 1 touch screen. I've only touched the touchscreen to play around......


----------



## Footer (Oct 20, 2011)

mstaylor said:


> I completely agree. The Ion fills all the needs,except directly filling riders, and as you say most don't carry LDs anyway, so the Hog would be overkill and limiting at the same time.


 
Ironicly, just last night we had the first Ion come through that I have ever seen on tour... and it was for a R&R show (Tedeschi Trucks Band).


----------



## SteveB (Oct 20, 2011)

jglodeklights said:


> I also question touch screens with an ION/EOS/Element. With properly laid out palette sheets and magic sheets, accessing palettes and channels from the hard keys can often be quicker than trying to access them via the touchscreen- you don't have to move your hand from where it already is to hit the appropriate palette button and then enter the appropriate number. I've used the ION with touch screens, touch screen, 1 screen and 1 touch screen. I've only touched the touchscreen to play around......



Use the Keypad ?, How quaint, as Mr. Scott would say. Who runs a Hog or Grand MA by typing channel numbers ?. No one. Same with the Eos and Ion touch screens.

Remember this is busking - AKA running live, not cuing a theater show, for which the keypad is faster, although if an LD is smart, then build a LOT of groups and I can then grab them faster on the TS then typing. 

I have 6 ML's on 6 different channels. If I have to type "3, 0, 1, thru, 3, 0, 6, Enter" everytime I want to access that group, as opposed to having the left touch screen (as shown in the photo) with "Fix All" as a one button push (Or Fix,1, Fix 2, Fix 5, Fix 6" for the outsides on 4 buttons) which is faster ?. Likewise I am not pressing keys to get these fixtures to a Preset (set up on the right touch screen). "Recall From, Preset" and I'm done, or a "Sneak", Preset" for a timed fade. I pretty much never have to touch the keypad and can layout the Direct Selects on screen in an order that somewhat mirrors the stage. This is immensely faster then any other method I've tried, including using subs. 

Best thing I've used in a conventional desk.


----------



## shiben (Oct 20, 2011)

SteveB said:


> Use the Keypad ?, How quaint, as Mr. Scott would say. Who runs a Hog or Grand MA by typing channel numbers ?. No one. Same with the Eos and Ion touch screens.
> 
> Remember this is busking - AKA running live, not cuing a theater show, for which the keypad is faster, although if an LD is smart, then build a LOT of groups and I can then grab them faster on the TS then typing.


 
I wouldnt say no one runs a hog or Grand MA or EOS by typing channel numbers. Just not during busking. Its just different parts of the industry, I would imagine... In this application, touch screens are going to be the friend of our OP. In a theater cuing sessions, using touch screens may or may not happen depending on what exactly is happening, but using a TS is a lot of work compared to just hitting up thing on the keypad for lots of individual channel notes.


----------



## meatpopsicle (Oct 20, 2011)

shiben said:


> I wouldnt say no one runs a hog or Grand MA or EOS by typing channel numbers. Just not during busking. Its just different parts of the industry, I would imagine... In this application, touch screens are going to be the friend of our OP. In a theater cuing sessions, using touch screens may or may not happen depending on what exactly is happening, but using a TS is a lot of work compared to just hitting up thing on the keypad for lots of individual channel notes.


 
Touch Screens are a lot of work? Really? You make the same key strokes for a group, and then it shows up graphicly on a touch screen direct select and its one touch to call it up as opposed to 3, 4 or 5 key strokes. I understand that that each style of programming has its own preferences....but really, for movers, I can't stress enough how incredibly usefull the touch screens are. And buying an Element instead of an Ion consigns him to never being able to upgrade. Either software or hardware. 

Who here, in this thread, actually runs Ions?


----------



## sk8rsdad (Oct 20, 2011)

meatpopsicle said:


> And buying an Element instead of an Ion consigns him to never being able to upgrade. Either software or hardware.



Not true. Element gets the same software updates on the same release cycle as every other console in the Eos family. Of course, some Eos/Ion/Gio-specific features are not available. Hardware limitations are what they are.


meatpopsicle said:


> Who here, in this thread, actually runs Ions?



2 Ions, both with 2x10 fader wings.

Element wasn't available when we bought the first one, and we picked an Ion over an Element because the limited feature set of Element makes it different enough from it's bigger siblings to almost require retraining. OTOH, I am glad that ETC made the ML control developed for Element available to Ion.


----------



## SteveB (Oct 20, 2011)

sk8rsdad said:


> I am glad that ETC made the ML control developed for Element available to Ion.



Eos software trickled down to Ion

Then to Element


----------



## SteveB (Oct 20, 2011)

meatpopsicle said:


> Who here, in this thread, actually runs Ions?



A better question would be who actually runs an Ion with DUAL touch screens and busks one-off's with movers and LED's ?.

An Ion without touch screens on a straight play, cued show is a joy to run. There isn't a whole lot the touch screens do to help when the LD is asking "Channel, 1 thru 8 at 25 %. Keying that in is the fastest method especially if it's all conventionals.

Unless the LD is a Steve Shelly type and asks for Group 1 (Ch's 1 thru 8) at 25%, then it's a toss up as to whether it's faster to press the Group button on the Direct Select screen or key it in. If the LD asks for Groups, 1, +, 3, +, 5, +, 8, Enter"then the TS is so much faster as there is no "+, Group" to keep pressing. It's 4 buttons on the TS. 

One key is to get the screens in range so you are not killing yourself reaching, so layout is critical. 

Two weeks ago I cued our Dept. of Theater show that is on our mainstage as an in-the-round setup (while they build them a new theater). I had all 6 Studio Spots in use and used the TS's to grab them for selection as groups. I was not going to keep typing "Channel, 3,0,1, thru, 3, 0, 6, Enter". It's right there on the screen as "All Fix". I had the L screen with Focus/Beam and Color and could readily press (in Group) "Fix All", then Color Palette button "R60" as a 2 button push. That is much faster and accurate then using a keypad to type "Channel, 3, 0, 1, thru 3, 0, 6, Enter, Color, 5, /, 60, Enter". 

There is a reason ETC went the Touch Screen route folks, it's just going to take time to experiment and re-learn how we use the features they've given us.


----------



## shiben (Oct 20, 2011)

SteveB said:


> A better question would be who actually runs an Ion with DUAL touch screens and busks one-off's with movers and LED's ?.
> 
> An Ion without touch screens on a straight play, cued show is a joy to run. There isn't a whole lot the touch screens do to help when the LD is asking "Channel, 1 thru 8 at 25 %. Keying that in is the fastest method especially if it's all conventionals.
> 
> ...


 
Exactly my point here. I run an Ion, and most of my design work ends up having all conventional lights. I dont busk on one tho, so in that regard Touch Screens are very probably faster. I just have never had an occasion to use them for that as pretty much all of my design work ends up being for theater nowdays. The only reason I chimed in at all was to say that if you are doing theater, having 3 2x20 wings and dual touchscreens is a waste of your money, as you can be doing other things that your theater production will use more with that money. If your busking, its probably a different story and thats a whole different cost analysis. Sounds like the OP wants a busking console and thus TS devices are definitely going to be more of a use for him there. There is no one console and configuration that easily satisfies all 3 major sectors of our rather diverse industry, and each one works a bit differently, and even within them it gets diversified based on what your doing. It seems silly to me to say a Hog 3 or GMA is going to be your "best" console for any application ever. Its just not the case. 

And you totally can upgrade an ETC Console. Saying otherwise, Thats just silly talk.


----------



## meatpopsicle (Oct 20, 2011)

shiben said:


> And you totally can upgrade an ETC Console. Saying otherwise, Thats just silly talk.


 
I didn't say ETC console, I said Element, specifically. My information is that software and features are not being upgraded in the Element. This from a major rental house here in NY that wont stock it because of that.

Your points about a straight theatre show are well put.

EDIT: Going to ETC's site shows that Element's software has followed EOS, ION ect and is currently at 1.9. Perhaps my guy was only talking of features. Anyway my point seems more tenuous the longer I look at it.


----------



## sk8rsdad (Oct 20, 2011)

SteveB said:


> Eos software trickled down to Ion
> 
> Then to Element



I'm pretty sure it appeared in v1.6 which was the release for Element and flowed uphill. Eos and Ion didn't need it because they have encoders. The ML control has a few direct selects because Element doesn't offer the feature. Of course, I could be wrong.


----------



## soundlight (Oct 21, 2011)

meatpopsicle said:


> Who here, in this thread, actually runs Ions?


 
I did for a year in college and I still use one occasionally. At my college we had two touchscreens and let me tell you, they were very, very, very useful for moving lights stuff. Heck, even for not moving lights stuff. They're just really super useful and that's why I recommended two from the start in this thread.

I can see where Shiben is coming from though, when you're doing channel notes for a one cuestack theatre show, it's much easier just to type on the keypad for some things. Anyone who has been programming for a while on the console can have the keystrokes for groups complete in the time it takes someone to reach up, hit those group buttons, and return to the console to hit their intensity level during notes. The keypad, for some people, is quicker.

But we're talking about busking here, including with moving lights, so touch screens would be very, very useful.


----------



## Footer (Oct 21, 2011)

soundlight said:


> But we're talking about busking here, including with moving lights, so touch screens would be very, very useful.


 
Busking, yes, however the second you start flashing and trashing any of these bands tour managers are going to be up your rear. This is not typical rock or stoner rock. In fact, many of these bands have in their riders they don't even want to see moving lights. 

To the OP, in this economy get what you can. If an element fits the budget, then go with it. If an Ion fits, go with that. No point in spending money you don't have in order to get more features you won't really use. Anymore, any purchase decisions we make around here comes with a grain of salt. If I think that saving a grand here or there is going to help keep the doors open a bit longer, thats what I go with. Something to consider at least. I would suggest you get an onsite demo of both. I bet one of the shops will ship you a loaner to run a show off of before you commit.


----------



## meatpopsicle (Oct 21, 2011)

Footer said:


> I would suggest you get an onsite demo of both. I bet one of the shops will ship you a loaner to run a show off of before you commit.


 
to that end you can go on etc's site and find the introduction to the Element that Sara Clausen does here: 

Lighting solutions for Theatre, Film & Television Studios and Architectural spaces : ETC

After watching this I would think an Ion an even better choice for someone who A: owns some movers and B: will have acts bringing more in. With the touchscreens. While using movers on an Element will be tons better than on Express/ion, it just can't compare to having your pallettes available on touchscreens. And the lack of encoders seals the deal for me.


----------



## SteveB (Oct 21, 2011)

Footer said:


> Busking, yes, however the second you start flashing and trashing any of these bands tour managers are going to be up your rear. This is not typical rock or stoner rock. In fact, many of these bands have in their riders they don't even want to see moving lights.
> 
> To the OP, in this economy get what you can. If an element fits the budget, then go with it. If an Ion fits, go with that. No point in spending money you don't have in order to get more features you won't really use. Anymore, any purchase decisions we make around here comes with a grain of salt. If I think that saving a grand here or there is going to help keep the doors open a bit longer, thats what I go with. Something to consider at least. I would suggest you get an onsite demo of both. I bet one of the shops will ship you a loaner to run a show off of before you commit.



Best not be quoting this when Steph want her Expression replaced with an Ion and your thinking Element !


----------



## derekleffew (Oct 21, 2011)

SteveB said:


> Best not be quoting this when Steph wants her Expression replaced with an Ion and your thinking Element !


As she currently has an Express 250 in one space and an Insight II in the other, and no moving lights/LEDs in either, an Expression3 OR an Element would be a step up. (Hold out for a gMA2, Steph. )


----------



## SteveB (Oct 21, 2011)

derekleffew said:


> As she currently has an Express 250 in one space and an Insight II in the other, and no moving lights/LEDs in either, an Expression3 OR an Element would be a step up. (Hold out for a gMA2, Steph. )



Or at least ask nicely for the $40,000 GMA2 and maybe they'll settle on the $15,000 Ion !


----------



## Footer (Oct 21, 2011)

SteveB said:


> Or at least ask nicely for the $40,000 GMA2 and maybe they'll settle on the $15,000 Ion !



First, what we do in the smaller room is not what we do in the larger room. In the larger room flash and trash happens regularly and road LDs are common. 

IF we were to upgrade it would not be to Ion or anything ETC related. The only way we need a new console is if we get a moving light package. In order to get a package that is worthwhile that could actually fill riders, it would be at least 15-20 units. We would either go GrandMA or Chamsys. We see mostly GrandMAs coming through with the occasional spattering of Avo and HogIII. IF the upgrade ever happens, it would be to bring the lighting system up to the same level as our PA which is as rider friendly as it gets. Because our program is quickly moving to a straight music presentation venue, we would lean towards the needs of an R&R show and away from theatre and dance. 

Now.... the odds of this happening are slim to none in the coming years. It will be at least a 3 million if not 5 million dollar project. Unless its a "green" projector or done with stimulus money, it is not happening anytime soon.


----------



## SteveB (Oct 23, 2011)

Footer said:


> First, what we do in the smaller room is not what we do in the larger room. In the larger room flash and trash happens regularly and road LDs are common.
> 
> IF we were to upgrade it would not be to Ion or anything ETC related. The only way we need a new console is if we get a moving light package. In order to get a package that is worthwhile that could actually fill riders, it would be at least 15-20 units. We would either go GrandMA or Chamsys. We see mostly GrandMAs coming through with the occasional spattering of Avo and HogIII. IF the upgrade ever happens, it would be to bring the lighting system up to the same level as our PA which is as rider friendly as it gets. Because our program is quickly moving to a straight music presentation venue, we would lean towards the needs of an R&R show and away from theatre and dance.
> 
> Now.... the odds of this happening are slim to none in the coming years. It will be at least a 3 million if not 5 million dollar project. Unless its a "green" projector or done with stimulus money, it is not happening anytime soon.



Would you invest to that level of in-house, knowing you'd have to settle on a fixture choice ?. You can't afford or have 16 VL3500's as well as 16 MAC 2k Perfomance, not to mention countless LED choices as well and the ***** is trying to 2nd guess what the clients wants. The console is almost easy IF most of the acts are R&R, then you do a GrandMA2. 

OR, you don't do any, or few ML's and LED's, just enough to make life a little easier, as well as a very good and modern ETC conventional rig, with maybe the ML's being VL1000's as well as a LED cyc set, or something to make the rep plot more flexible. Then an Ion or Eos to make the events with the in-house LD happy and their life easier (and more efficient). My current problem is I now have a dozen ML's, all flash and trash MAC700's and Studio Spots and almost no events to use them on since the GM cracked down on us using them for rentals. We are puzzled as to why he does not simply up the rental fee by $300 or so to cover the maintenance (the fixtures were all grant funded). So think long and hard as to how to best incorporate all the new stuff that nobody wants to pay for.


----------



## Footer (Oct 23, 2011)

SteveB said:


> Would you invest to that level of in-house, knowing you'd have to settle on a fixture choice ?. You can't afford or have 16 VL3500's as well as 16 MAC 2k Perfomance, not to mention countless LED choices as well and the ***** is trying to 2nd guess what the clients wants. The console is almost easy IF most of the acts are R&R, then you do a GrandMA2.
> 
> OR, you don't do any, or few ML's and LED's, just enough to make life a little easier, as well as a very good and modern ETC conventional rig, with maybe the ML's being VL1000's as well as a LED cyc set, or something to make the rep plot more flexible. Then an Ion or Eos to make the events with the in-house LD happy and their life easier (and more efficient). My current problem is I now have a dozen ML's, all flash and trash MAC700's and Studio Spots and almost no events to use them on since the GM cracked down on us using them for rentals. We are puzzled as to why he does not simply up the rental fee by $300 or so to cover the maintenance (the fixtures were all grant funded). So think long and hard as to how to best incorporate all the new stuff that nobody wants to pay for.


 
If and when we ever do this, there will still be a plot in the air that will be able to handle dance to a degree. However, our executive director has been for a long time moving us to a music presenting house. This month we did 19 concerts, 5 corporates, 2 Theaters, and 2 dance. No dance company can afford us to do a multi-day hang/prep and therefore are staying in rep with a few color swaps. As far as exact fixture choices, that is not really a concern. We are a B/C venue so most of the tours that come in are just carrying a ground package. Currently, if the rider asks for moving lights in house, we ignore that section and just move on. Most B/C LD's just want something that throws light out one end and wiggles. They usually just distinguish between profile and wash lights and thats about it. They will take whatever they can get.


----------



## topshelf1227 (Oct 23, 2011)

I hate to sound so out of the loop....but basically I am getting the idea that for what our theater presents here, I'd be best getting an Ion with 2 2x20 wings and two touchscreen monitors - yes? And if cost was a concern, could I go with one touchscreen (for the moving lights) and one conventional screen? And if cost was a big concern, I should go for the Element. 

Upcoming, we have the following:

String quartet Chamber Music
Ed Rolland and Kevin Griffin
Coco Montoya
Sonny Landreth
Badfinger
David Bromberg
Tom Rush
Southside Johnny acoustic
Acoustic Alchemy
Red Horse
Dave Albin and the Guilty Ones
Comedy Show
Commander Cody
Vanilla Fudge
Duncan Sheik
Ballet school renting to perform Nutcracker


All these suggestions are very helpful and I appreciate the viewpoints. I don't want nor need to learn a new programming language and would like things to be just as easy as the Express 250 I currently have, or as close to it as possible. There's no time for a steep learning curve.


----------



## SteveB (Oct 23, 2011)

topshelf1227 said:


> I hate to sound so out of the loop....but basically I am getting the idea that for what our theater presents here, I'd be best getting an Ion with 2 2x20 wings and two touchscreen monitors - yes? And if cost was a concern, could I go with one touchscreen (for the moving lights) and one conventional screen? And if cost was a big concern, I should go for the Element.
> There's no time for a steep learning curve.



If less then 40 channels of conventionals, get a 2x20 fader wing for the conventionals, a 2x10 (half the cost of a 2x20) to give you some faders for ML and LED control (effects, lntensity, some quick playbacks) then with the $800 saved on the difference between the 2x20 and 2x10 get the 2nd touch screen @ around $650-$700. That's 60 faders/subs which can be enough.

The reason I harp on the 2 TS's is you can set up one screen to have Groups (set up as individual fixture grabs -see the screen shot on an earlier post), Colors, Focus and Beam palettes, on a Tabbed Direct Select with one button pushes, ready to go. Then the 2nd TS can have a Direct Select with 50 Presets, which saves you having to use a lot of faders. 

BTW, there's always a learning curve, but the Ion is similar enough to an Express, just have to remember to press Enter, that basic stuff is easy.


----------



## gafftaper (Oct 23, 2011)

I haven't seen one yet personally and I don't know what the pricing is on it. But, from the ETC sales propaganda, it seems like the new ETC GIO might be the product for you. It's placed right between Ion and Eos in the product lines. It seems to me that rather than tricking out an Ion with lots of expensive accessories, Gio might do everything you need nicely. 

No matter what anyone here convinces you to get, demand demos on site before you buy so that you can see how YOU like it in YOUR space.


----------



## mstaylor (Oct 23, 2011)

I would demo both the ION and GIO. I use an Ion with no touchscreens but I only have four movers. Maybe an ETC rep can step in but my understanding is the GIO has few physical dimmers and the screens are built in. The Ion is a computor with a wing and detached screens. The advantage is you can set your lighting desk up how you like it. I work with one designer/ BO that is left handed and sets everything up backwards from me. Since we are on an Ion we can do that. Also if you move the board between theatres or from the booth to the house, it's smaller pieces to move. Unless money becomes a problem stay away from the Element. Nothing wrong with it, just fewer bells and whistles. Try to at least get the Ion, one TS, one 2X20 and one 2X10. If you weren't busking as much you could ditch one wing.


----------



## MrsFooter (Oct 23, 2011)

SteveB said:


> Best not be quoting this when Steph want her Expression replaced with an Ion and your thinking Element !


 
Steph does not want an Ion. Unless Steph can have a GrandMA or a Chamsys to go with an all new rig, her Expression and Insight actually do exactly what she needs them to do. Anyone who needs more than the Expression and Insight can offer brings their own board. And in her smaller space, which is pretty much an _exact replica_ of the OP's space, not a single person has ever asked for more than her Insight can offer. In fact, just last night David Sanborn (who has been in the OP's space as well,) told her that he loved what she did and that the lights looked great. So what Steph is trying to say is that it's silly for anyone but Steph to try and announce what Steph does and does not want.

Unless we're talking about Swedish Fish. I ****ing love Swedish Fish.


----------



## derekleffew (Oct 24, 2011)

Trust us, we know what's best for Steph. And this will only hurt for a moment.


----------



## waynehoskins (Oct 24, 2011)

MrsFooter said:


> Steph does not want an Ion. Unless Steph can have a GrandMA or a Chamsys to go with an all new rig, her Expression and Insight actually do exactly what she needs them to do. Anyone who needs more than the Expression and Insight can offer brings their own board. And in her smaller space, which is pretty much an _exact replica_ of the OP's space, not a single person has ever asked for more than her Insight can offer. In fact, just last night David Sanborn (who has been in the OP's space as well,) told her that he loved what she did and that the lights looked great. So what Steph is trying to say is that it's silly for anyone but Steph to try and announce what Steph does and does not want.
> 
> Unless we're talking about Swedish Fish. I ****ing love Swedish Fish.


 
What? Steph doesn't want the latest cool toy? Blasphemous! .. says the guy with a Mantrix at his church, a Mini LP in his kitchen, and an Express at the theatre.


----------



## chausman (Oct 24, 2011)

MrsFooter said:


> Steph does not want an Ion. Unless Steph can have a GrandMA or a Chamsys to go with an all new rig, her Expression and Insight actually do exactly what she needs them to do. Anyone who needs more than the Expression and Insight can offer brings their own board. And in her smaller space, which is pretty much an _exact replica_ of the OP's space, not a single person has ever asked for more than her Insight can offer. In fact, just last night David Sanborn (who has been in the OP's space as well,) told her that he loved what she did and that the lights looked great. So what Steph is trying to say is that it's silly for anyone but Steph to try and announce what Steph does and does not want.


 
Then Steph can keep her Insight and Expression, and Chase can take Stephs new Ion/Gio to replace Chase's Strand GSX150.


----------



## SteveB (Oct 24, 2011)

MrsFooter said:


> Steph does not want an Ion. Unless Steph can have a GrandMA or a Chamsys to go with an all new rig, her Expression and Insight actually do exactly what she needs them to do. Anyone who needs more than the Expression and Insight can offer brings their own board. And in her smaller space, which is pretty much an _exact replica_ of the OP's space, not a single person has ever asked for more than her Insight can offer. In fact, just last night David Sanborn (who has been in the OP's space as well,) told her that he loved what she did and that the lights looked great. So what Steph is trying to say is that it's silly for anyone but Steph to try and announce what Steph does and does not want.
> 
> Unless we're talking about Swedish Fish. I ****ing love Swedish Fish.



Closest thing you'll find from Sweden in a console is a Maxxyz. Comes in all sorts of flavors.


----------



## derekleffew (Oct 24, 2011)

SteveB said:


> Closest thing you'll find from Sweden in a console is a Maxxyz. ...


ETC/AVAB Congo?


----------



## meatpopsicle (Oct 24, 2011)

topshelf1227 said:


> I hate to sound so out of the loop....but basically I am getting the idea that for what our theater presents here, I'd be best getting an Ion with 2 2x20 wings and two touchscreen monitors - yes? And if cost was a concern, could I go with one touchscreen (for the moving lights) and one conventional screen? And if cost was a big concern, I should go for the Element.
> 
> All these suggestions are very helpful and I appreciate the viewpoints. I don't want nor need to learn a new programming language and would like things to be just as easy as the Express 250 I currently have, or as close to it as possible. There's no time for a steep learning curve.



Yes. And I live 20 minutes from you and can help you ease the learning curve. Sounds like a great space - I would love to come look at it.


----------

