# Patchbay options/advice



## llecount (Jul 8, 2010)

If you look at the pictures first.. I'll tell you that there's a story behind this, and luckily I had nothing to do with it.. I just unfortunately inherited this disaster. 
Long story short, my predcesser here decided to re-route all of our house's mic inputs and stage returns from our central rack (where the former patchbays were), to the table where the console sits. The method taken to move these lines is one that cannot easily (at all) be un-done, so I am stuck with all my stage lines and FOH mix lines landing here. 

So this is where I call to you audio professionals for your advice on this situation. 
As you can see in the pictures, I have a rats nest of cables that all lead to mic jacks, or return jacks all over the venue. (42+ mic lines, 16+ returns + FOH mix lines)
This creates problems when trying to patch up our house console for events, as it is often difficult to find the line that you are looking for since they are tangled with several others. (yes they are labeled). 
I'd like to find an easier option that would allow me to patch my on stage mic jacks and returns to either a whip that goes to the house console (in the booth), or to my FOH mix panel. In the first picture, you'll see all the empty desk space available.. I'd ideally like to have a patch panel integrated in to that empty space. 

What patch bays would you recommend? Pre built, or custom built?
What other ways would you recommend that I attempt to make this mess easier to deal with?

I am open to and greatly appreciate all ideas on this project!

Pictures:
The 2 coils in the picture are my FOH mix lines. Simply put, these lead to the FOH mix position where there is a panel for patching in to the house lines.




This mess are the mic and return lines from the stage (and other places) in the venue. 



These are the old patchbays we had in place. I was informed that these were "worn out" and wouldn't make proper connections anylonger. At the time they were removed from service, they were probably 17 years old. We have 6 or 7 of these total, all living in a storage cabinet now.


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## derekleffew (Jul 8, 2010)

llecount said:


> ... These are the old patchbays we had in place. I was informed that these were "worn out" and wouldn't make proper connections any longer. At the time they were removed from service, they were probably 17 years old. We have 6 or 7 of these total, all living in a storage cabinet now. ...


I know of many patchbays much older, and likely to have seen more use, than these, that still work fine. I'd investigate the problems, and put them back. I wonder if they are bantam/TT bays and someone used regular 1/4" plugs? 
Alternatively, Bittree makes some very nice (albeit expensive) ones. You might also consider an all XLR bay, made of 12-jack wide, 19" panels.


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## Footer (Jul 8, 2010)

Those ADC panels are rock solid. I could not imagine them "wearing out". They should take "military style" 1/4" TRS jacks. If you try to use "standard" 1/4" jacks they won't work right. That might have been the issue in the first place. I assume that they are a punchdown panel. You could meter them to see if they work. If they do, it would just be the cost of the connectors and cable to do the move over.


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## WooferHound (Jul 8, 2010)

The building that I work in had a bunch of those 1/4" panels in about 5 booths. when they were installed they worked wonderfully but after 20 years they became a huge headache as they became very unreliable. Connections that were working fine would suddenly quit or start humming. An intercom line that was patched through suddenly started a screaming feedback sound and a push on the wire made it quit. 

One day on a show that I was working on, a single cable patched a Show Mixer in the Hall to our House Sound system. At a very important moment in the program the thing started humming at a very loud volume. The only thing I could do to stop it was to unplug that patch cable, but then there was no sound at all. I then replugged that same cable exactly as it was before and the thing started working properly.

This military conference was a really big deal and there were people running in the booth and calling me on my cell phone wanting to know what went wrong. There were many inquires about this over the next week and it was determined that the 1/4" patch panel was the cause. This problem added to the problems that we were having with all the other patch panels in the building had the result of All the patch panels in the building being replaced with XLR Patch panels. Things have been running wonderfully since then. All the new Panels have Turnarounds and Multispliters built into them because of the One-Way nature of an XLR cable.

--- So what I'm trying to say is "Throw Away those patch panels you have pictured in your post" ---

XLR panels can be expensive and tedious to replace, until you replace them I have some suggestions to help with what you have now. I would tape together the wires that have similar functions and the wires that go to specific locations in the house. From the pictures it looks like you have a start on this but obviously needs a little more work.

Tape together all the Input cables coming to the console, but a couple of feet before you get to the connectors subdivide the inputs into groups of 4 taped together: 1-4, 5-8, 9-12, etc. this will greatly reduce your searching for 1 particular input cable and will make it easier to plug them all in when needed.
Do the same thing for all your Output lines, make a single group of all the outputs taped together, but before you get to the connector subdivide the outputs into groups that go to specific locations.
Make sure that you have enough cable at the connector to spider out to unusual connections you might make to the console or effects.
Use colored tape and color code stuff to make it easy to figure out what you are doing. Use the same colored tape on the panels or cables where you use them out in the house or onstage.


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## museav (Jul 8, 2010)

Yep, those look like ADC 2x24 PPA3 series long frame patchbays. I have designed or installed systems with probably hundreds of them and even many of the older ones are still in operation. They can simply wear out from too much use, there is friction and wear every time a patch is made, or from having the rear panel connections changed or moved too often, however they often start to fail or have problems as a result of improper use or maintenance.

As Kyle noted, you have to use proper "B gage" patch cords with those bays, if you look at patch cords the tip is round and the tip and ring are smaller diameter than the sleeve while standard "A gage" 1/4" cables have a more pointed tip and the tip and ring are the same diameter as the sleeve. If someone forces a standard cable into a patchbay the larger diameter of the tip and ring on the cable can bend the tip and ring contacts inside the patchbay such that they then make poor contact when used with proper patch cables (or they can even break). Of course sometimes correcting poor contact is just a matter of a good cleaning by taking a patch cord liberally sprayed with contact cleaner and inserting and pulling it out a few times, although this is more wear on the panel. But that will not fix bent contacts.

I personally prefer to use XLR patching on custom patch panels for mics. This distinguishes mic patches from line level patches, provides locking connections and is better able to deal with phantom power. The tradeoff is that these panel typically require more rack space and there is no normalling, so you have to patch every connection. Just a heads up, if you normal mics on standard patchbays you need to have patchbays that bring out the tip, ring and sleeve normals in order to be able to normal through all three conductors and phantom power (but do not patch with phantom power on, you can easily short it while patching).


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## llecount (Jul 12, 2010)

WooferHound said:


> The building that I work in had a bunch of those 1/4" panels in about 5 booths. when they were installed they worked wonderfully but after 20 years they became a huge headache as they became very unreliable. Connections that were working fine would suddenly quit or start humming. An intercom line that was patched through suddenly started a screaming feedback sound and a push on the wire made it quit.


 
According to previous TD's here, problems like this were what caused them to stop using the ADC patch panels to begin with. I still have a slew of the TT style patch cables here from those panels, so I'm not sure yet if those problems were from the cables or from the ADC panels themselves. Because of this, I'm weary of putting these old panels back in to service, I don't want to sacrifice my performance quality just to save a buck or two. 
I'll probably end up designing an XLR patch bay that will mount in to, or on the existing desk space. I've got all the tools to build my own panels, I just need to find the time to do the work. Though it may be easier to just buy some panels that are pre-punched for the XLR jacks. 
Thanks for the input everyone, I sincerely appreciate it!


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## museav (Jul 13, 2010)

At least in my experience, most problems are caused by either using the wrong type of patch cables (FWIW, TT refers to bantam connections rather than 1/4") or by people moving or 'repunching' the rear panel connections too many times. Patchbays can wear out, but consider the use they received in some of the original telephone applications where operators manually patched calls and it is pretty obvious that they can be quite reliable even with pretty heavy use.

Here's an example of some premanufactured XLR patch panels, AVP Jackfields:Insulated Bulkhead Panels Audio jackfields patch bays, AVP Jackfields:Insulated Bulkhead Panels Audio jackfields patch bays, AVP Jackfields:Insulated Bulkhead Panels Audio jackfields patch bays and RACK PANELS - Catalog - Whirlwind. There are a number of other providers of these as well and most offer the rack panels simply punched or punched and loaded with connectors and also offer custom engraved labeling.


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## epimetheus (Jul 13, 2010)

If you're going to make your own XLR patch bays, and you need to do it on the cheap, i'd go with pre-punched panels and loading them with jacks yourself. I'm found of Neutrik and hence have found these guys that can make life incredibly simple:

Neutrik - Audio - XLR Chassis Connector Accessories - MFD
MFD Neutrik XLR Connectors

Though, it would be worth your time to investigate the cost of buying loaded panels, such as those Brad posted (nice, I'll have to keep that site in mind!), verses blank panels and buying the jacks yourself.


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## museav (Jul 13, 2010)

There are many manufacturers and even metal shops that will provide puched and, if desired, labeled custom patch panels. You do have to watch if they are punched for Neutrik or Switchcraft or some proprietary modular insert. Here's some more examples of custom plate and panel options, Custom Panels, Custom Engraved Panels, Aluminum Panels, CONNECTRIX Panels, Prefabricated Panels, Wall Panels, and Rack Panels, Pro Co Sound | On Stage with the Best, RCI Custom Products, Liberty Wire & Cable, Rack Panels, Wireworks - Custom Rack Panels, Middle Atlantic Products - Custom Panel System and Raxxess Metalsmiths. And there are many more out there.


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## BillESC (Jul 13, 2010)

It might be less of a headache to just purchase a 60 circuit snake long enough to reach your FOH location. Then mount it to the wall or under the bench, make the connections and forget about it.


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## WooferHound (Jul 13, 2010)

Here are most of the patch panels that I deal with regularly . . .
All of them are in the same building, there are about 5 more smaller panels.


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## llecount (Jul 14, 2010)

BillESC said:


> It might be less of a headache to just purchase a 60 circuit snake long enough to reach your FOH location. Then mount it to the wall or under the bench, make the connections and forget about it.


 
More work than it's worth.. Booth is on the 3rd floor, FOH is on the main level. There's nothing I hate more than seeing cables draped over our balcony edge (video recording crews are the worst at this).

I had no idea there were so many companies out there who made prefabricated panels. Thanks for the links, that gives me a great starting point to work from!


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## derekleffew (Jul 14, 2010)

BTW, you have a very nice auditorium. I'd want the walls to be something other than stark white, but other than that, looks like a very workable space.

Is there a specific name for the type of balcony where the side seats extend down toward the stage?


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## llecount (Jul 14, 2010)

derekleffew said:


> BTW, you have a very nice auditorium. I'd want the walls to be something other than stark white, but other than that, looks like a very workable space.
> 
> Is there a specific name for the type of balcony where the side seats extend down toward the stage?



Thanks! We always hear plenty of compliments on the facility from touring crews. Hard to believe that it used to be a 2000+ seat bowl arena before it was renovated!

The seats you mention, we've always called it the Dress Circle, and I believe that's how it's identified on the building plans.


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## TimmyP1955 (Jul 18, 2010)

When you tape them into bundles as Wolfhound suggested, color code the bundles to make identification faster.

Bundle 1 = Brown
2= Red
3=Orange
4=Yellow
5=Green
6=Blue
7=Violet
8=Gray
9=White
10=Black (in resistors it's 0, but you can't have a wire #0


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