# New House, New Problems



## Jay Ashworth (Apr 3, 2022)

Looks like I'll be doing some regular work in another local college theatre/PAC, built *just* before the pandemic, and now finally launching.

Aside from the Ion xe20 (which I largely know how to run) and the Yamaha QL5 (which was enough like my LS9, that I know how to run it, now), the centerpiece here is Extron, a name which doesn't strike fear into as *many* hearts as Crestron, but certainly enough.

We have an IPCP, a 16x16 AV switcher, a bunch of Extron's equivalent to HDbaseT remote boxes, and half a dozen wall and desk panels. And LOTS of really big TVs mounted everywhere; they spent about $18M on the place, I'm told.  

So I'm going to be interested in pointers, if anybody has any, about how to get the Extron macro programming to talk to the Ion, the Yamaha, our Paradigm houselights, and probably some Zigbee/Z-wave if I can talk everyone into what I want to.


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## RickR (Apr 3, 2022)

You may know this, but I'm guessing you need info on "UDP" serial messages. Paradigm Serial Access Protocol v4.0.0 Configuration Guide 

Yes, is the modern version of old fashioned serial text. I don't know Yamaha, but ETC gear, Extron and most smart stuff can pass these dumb text blocks over any network. I think of it as remote macro buttons.


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## Jay Ashworth (Apr 3, 2022)

Didn't know Paradigm spoke UDP; I'm still descending from 50,000 ft. Thanks.

[ Looks like that link might be broken, BTW ]


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## Ben Stiegler (Apr 4, 2022)

Congrats, Jay! I have a lot of confidence in your ability to build the plane whilst flying it!


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## Ben Stiegler (Apr 4, 2022)

Here's the correct link for PSAP - https://support.etcconnect.com/ETC/Architectural/Paradigm/Paradigm_Serial_Access_Protocol_PSAP


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## Malabaristo (Apr 4, 2022)

Are you planning to work with the AV installer to update the Extron programming, or hoping to do it yourself? Extron doesn't have any generic functionality that could be used to do what you want--it's all specific to what the programmer put in your particular config. Last I checked, the version of their configuration software that was available without going through their tech training program has a limit of two touchscreen controllers. Without the full version, you wouldn't be able to make any changes to a system over that limit.

There are some clunky things about programming in Extron (in my opinion), but it should be capable of doing what you want.


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## Jay Ashworth (Apr 4, 2022)

Malabaristo said:


> Are you planning to work with the AV installer to update the Extron programming, or hoping to do it yourself? Extron doesn't have any generic functionality that could be used to do what you want--it's all specific to what the programmer put in your particular config. Last I checked, the version of their configuration software that was available without going through their tech training program has a limit of two touchscreen controllers. Without the full version, you wouldn't be able to make any changes to a system over that limit.
> 
> There are some clunky things about programming in Extron (in my opinion), but it should be capable of doing what you want.



My boss--he is also new in the facility--is looking at our taking the extron training courses. My day job has been programmer / IT for the last four decades, so I don't expect it to freak me out any. Just a question of whether we can get the house to pay for it.

I am familiar with nearly all of the reasons why such vendors want to lock everything in the closet, but we are neither of their categories of problem customer. Well okay, we probably are the "we can do it ourselves so why should we pay you?" customer but we're not going to break things.

We will see how it plays in Peoria. I'm just trying to get a handle on capabilities at this point.


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## MRW Lights (Apr 4, 2022)

Happy to help with UDP programming for Paradigm and Extron/Crestron. We operate thousands of *tron devices throughout campus with typically great amounts of success.... though we do have an entire *tron certified team in their own department so that helps us out greatly. Highly recommend the training if you can get it.


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## Jay Ashworth (Apr 7, 2022)

We also have ETC Unison; I assume that's in the same category as the *tron stuff?

I'm not sure if Unison is above or below Paradigm in the stack, or if they're separate.


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## Malabaristo (Apr 7, 2022)

It would be weird for a space that new to have Legacy Unison, so this may just be a language confusion (unless this was an addition to an older space or something?). "Unison" is a product family that includes architectural controls such as Paradigm, Echo, Mosaic, etc. So someone could say "Unison" and mean the Paradigm stuff you already know about, or something else entirely.

If it is the old stuff, then the search term you're looking for is "USAP" instead of "PSAP". It's RS232 and a little more complicated since it's a bunch of hex values rather than the friendlier ASCII format of PSAP.


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## SteveB (Apr 7, 2022)

There is no new Unison systems currently sold or installed by ETC. Paradigm is the improved and advanced version and replaces Unison.


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## MRW Lights (Apr 7, 2022)

Jay Ashworth said:


> We also have ETC Unison; I assume that's in the same category as the *tron stuff?
> 
> I'm not sure if Unison is above or below Paradigm in the stack, or if they're separate.



There are a couple surefire ways to tell which system you have if it's not clear by the logos... the easiest being if your processor has a diamond shaped button pad or a circular and if it's circular is the writing on the front red with a Card slot only and no usb? That combined with a photo of any touch screens you might have should be a dead giveaway. But the language and programming are different. Paradigm programming wants to be done by a trained/certified tech... and in fact has to be to have access to the appropriate software.


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## Jay Ashworth (Apr 8, 2022)

Well, it's got these:




If Paradigm replaces Unison, then that's what we have, almost certainly.

This latter feeds our Dimmer Rack:


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## MRW Lights (Apr 8, 2022)

aha ok great... so.... I'm almost certain given the front of that panel that we're looking at a DRd with a PACP feeding your Sensor3 and back again with an external fail-over bypass to an emergency generator. Pretty slick and clean setup by the look of things. Kudos to your integrator. Your PACP can be programmed to externally receive UDP strings to activate presets that can trigger both your DRd modules and Sensor3 Rack so.... 

overall you're going to be mixing languages, but mostly you'll be looking at UDP strings from Extron to ETC in my preference, the yamaha is going to depend on your signal and what equipment you have available to send various types of signals.... but you've got a good setup to do some complicated and fun programming, but you'll need a tech for the paradigm programming and probably another for the *tron programming, unless you can bring the integrator back who might have both people on their team, rarely the same person....


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## Malabaristo (Apr 8, 2022)

SteveB said:


> There is no new Unison systems currently sold or installed by ETC. Paradigm is the improved and advanced version and replaces Unison.


If you take a look at the product page for Paradigm, the very first line in the description will either make you more or less confused. Unison used to be the name for one specific product line that ETC now refers to as "Legacy Unison". Once Paradigm was created to replace Legacy Unison, the Unison name was expanded to cover several different architectural control & power products that have been added over the years. This makes a certain amount of sense, but creates the confusion where one person can now say "Unison" and another can say "Paradigm" while talking about the same thing.


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## Jay Ashworth (Apr 9, 2022)

Malabaristo said:


> If you take a look at the product page for Paradigm, the very first line in the description will either make you more or less confused. Unison used to be the name for one specific product line that ETC now refers to as "Legacy Unison". Once Paradigm was created to replace Legacy Unison, the Unison name was expanded to cover several different architectural control & power products that have been added over the years. This makes a certain amount of sense, but creates the confusion where one person can now say "Unison" and another can say "Paradigm" while talking about the same thing.


So if I'm understanding you correctly, I was right: Paradigm is *under* New Unison, replacing Legacy Unison, and that's why the software is called Unison LightDesigner?


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## Malabaristo (Apr 9, 2022)

Jay Ashworth said:


> So if I'm understanding you correctly, I was right: Paradigm is *under* New Unison, replacing Legacy Unison, and that's why the software is called Unison LightDesigner?


Yup, you got it. Unison Paradigm is the direct replacement for Legacy Unison, with the other product lines expanding the family into other branches of architectural control.


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## Jay Ashworth (Apr 10, 2022)

Back to Extron, our matrix switch is the XTP-II 1600. That looks like a pretty high-end mainframe; does anyone know if it has any channels of quad-split, built in? Or available as a card? Be nice to be able to Take a split of multiple source on one or more destinations, without having to tie up a bunch of outputs to do it myself, and it sure seems like it ought to be powerful enough...


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## MRW Lights (Apr 11, 2022)

Jay Ashworth said:


> So if I'm understanding you correctly, I was right: Paradigm is *under* New Unison, replacing Legacy Unison, and that's why the software is called Unison LightDesigner?



Aha and yet... Legacy Unison programming and Paradigm LightDesigner are not to be confused as being the same thing. An ETC Field Tech / Phone Support will get very prickly if these get confused while trying to troubleshoot / program things remotely. It's like UK vs English. We can communicate, but we might not be talking about the same thing and that doesn't always end well


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## Jay Ashworth (Apr 11, 2022)

MRW Lights said:


> Aha and yet... Legacy Unison programming and Paradigm LightDesigner are not to be confused as being the same thing. An ETC Field Tech / Phone Support will get very prickly if these get confused while trying to troubleshoot / program things remotely. It's like UK vs English. We can communicate, but we might not be talking about the same thing and that doesn't always end well


Sure.

As we've noted, this whole install went in in 2019, so I'm guessing there's no Legacy Unison anywhere to be found.


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