# Some more LS9 questions



## SHARYNF (Sep 4, 2011)

For all you LS9 users a couple of questions:

Are you using Studio Manager or Stage Mix, I know only one can be used at a time but wondered what the preference was

Is anyone using Studio Manager using a wireless router and a tablet as an alternative to Stage mix, Or ??

On a LS9-16 where the access to the 31 GEQ is a bit weird on the faders which Studio manger or Stage Mix works best

Anyone using Airfader?

For IEM mixes is anyone using a combination of the omni outs and the Digital outs to give a large number of individual mixes (for instance keep 7-8 for feed to FOH, and then use 1-6 and 17-32 individual mixes 

In two possible setups, one where the 16 ins are simple assigned 1-17 etc, vs using say 2 Behringer ADA8000s, what do most people do again on Monitor mix Do you find it easier to just split in the assignment, or physically split the inputs?

I'm starting a project using a LS9-16 and trying to come up to speed on the "conventional wisdom"


Are people putting the LS9 on stage, run monitors there, and use remote control for FOH or the opposite?

I have read this thread, so would be interested in any expanded comments

http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/sound-music-intercom/23977-ls9-remote-control-capabilities.html




Thanks for any input

Sharyn


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## Mutton (Sep 4, 2011)

SHARYNF said:


> Is anyone using Studio Manager using a wireless router and a tablet as an alternative to Stage mix, Or ??


 
I've used Studio Manager and a tablet with an LS9 before. It works great for ringing out the system/babysitting (mute/unmute a speaker).

Right now I wouldn't dream of using it for a real show. It's a little clunky, response is a little slow, and wireless for a show still scares me.


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## DaveySimps (Sep 4, 2011)

We purchased a refurbished old school tablet PC and a wireless access point with our LS9-32 and use it to run studio manager. It has worked very well for us for 2 years now. We mix monitors from FOH, so it is a real time saver. I have an Ipad, so I downloaded the app. It is good, but I prefer the tablet overall. For the same price, you can get a refurbished tablet PC over the ipad and run the full version of Studio Manager. We also have two of the SB168 stage boxes, so the digital snake feature is great for our particular situation.

I have also used the LS9 on freelance gigs for monitor mixing. I would stick to the Omni outs. With the User Defined Keys, you really can customize it well to your needs, so you can get at everything quickly.

So, as far as "conventional wisdom" I would say, it is all what you make of it. That is what I love about the board, there are so many different ways to cater it to your needs, that you do not have to worry about limited options. It is no PM5D, Midas, or Digico, but the more I use it, the more I love it. GREAT for it's sector of the market.

~Dave


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## bishopthomas (Sep 5, 2011)

SHARYNF said:


> Is anyone using Studio Manager using a wireless router and a tablet as an alternative to Stage mix, Or ??



I could never get used to using a stylus on a tablet PC so I was ecstatic when Stage Mix came out. I was always very much against the iPad but I bought one for the sole purpose of using Stage Mix. I have used it a few times to ring out monitors and get levels set on podium gigs when I'm by myself. Never used it to mix an entire show yet (I'm doing concerts, not theatre, would NOT recommend it for theatre) but I would feel completely comfortable doing so. Sure, there are some limitations, but I can live with them for the convenience of the multi-touchscreen interface. I have mixed a band a couple of times with Studio Manager on a laptop, using a mouse. It worked fine, still a little slow though.


SHARYNF said:


> On a LS9-16 where the access to the 31 GEQ is a bit weird on the faders which Studio manger or Stage Mix works best



Using the iPad for graphics while keeping your fader layer on the inputs is a great idea and would make things so much easier, especially on the (even clunkier) 16 channel version.


SHARYNF said:


> In two possible setups, one where the 16 ins are simple assigned 1-17 etc, vs using say 2 Behringer ADA8000s, what do most people do again on Monitor mix Do you find it easier to just split in the assignment, or physically split the inputs?



Are you talking about splitting the inputs, one set for FOH, the other for monitors? If so, I do that every now and then. I typically use the second layer (on the 32 channel version) for monitors. This requires sharing head amps but sometimes that can be a good thing. Setting up a template scene is a great time saver since it takes a while to softpatch 32 channels. I also like the custom fader layer when the band approaches the maximum channel count. I like to have the EFX returns on faders (the knobs are ridiculous) so I may exclude the drums, or similar, from the custom fader layer and add the EFX returns at the end. If I'm running monitors then the cue fader might go here as well. I've never really used the fixed bus feature (which gives you subgroups) but I may do that next time. In which case those will go on a custom fader layer as well.


SHARYNF said:


> Are people putting the LS9 on stage, run monitors there, and use remote control for FOH or the opposite?



I like to have a physical console for monitor mixing and use the iPad for FOH. Feedback's going to happen in monitor world and the musos want things quickly (and all at the same time).


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## SHARYNF (Sep 5, 2011)

DaveySimps said:


> ..... We also have two of the SB168 stage boxes, so the digital snake feature is great for our particular situation.
> .....
> 
> ~Dave


 
when you use the Sb168's on stage do you use them in addition to the on console physical inputs, or in stead of so you are just running Cat5/6 to stage?

Sharyn


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## SHARYNF (Sep 5, 2011)

Has anyone looked at running ADA8000's using Adat over Cat5 (for example Hear tech) as a poor mans Digital snake setup? Has anyone seen this remote control for the ADA8000 

Remote Gain Controller

http://www.appsys.ch/products/34-digitalaudio/55-adx32badx64b



Sharyn


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## museav (Sep 5, 2011)

What do those using wireless remote mixing do for monitoring and cueing? Maybe not a concern for basic uses but I personally can't see mixing any sizable show or concert without any potential to cue and/or solo.

As far as using wireless for FOH versus monitors, I think that all depends on the situation.

On the remote gain control, I'm not a fan of products that are effectively DIY modifications. But ignoring that, while remote gain control is definitely nice to have, I don't believe you get any signal level, signal presence or clipping indication with the approach linked, which to me would make it of significantly less value.


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## bishopthomas (Sep 5, 2011)

museav said:


> What do those using wireless remote mixing do for monitoring and cueing? Maybe not a concern for basic uses but I personally can't see mixing any sizable show or concert without any potential to cue and/or solo.


 
For monitors that is definitely an issue, and one of the reasons I like the console in monitor world and wireless out front. Cue control really isn't an issue for me at FOH. Unless something is wrong I rarely need to listen to individual channels. If that happens I can walk up to the console to cue. My main use for wireless control is when I'm not able to run a snake and the console is on the side of the stage (or worse). I can walk out, make adjustments, and return to my nook.


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## DaveySimps (Sep 5, 2011)

SHARYNF said:


> when you use the Sb168's on stage do you use them in addition to the on console physical inputs, or in stead of so you are just running Cat5/6 to stage?
> 
> Sharyn


 
We use it in addition to, so that we have a total of 64 inputs. The 32 at the stage, and another 32 at FOH mix, where our wireless rack, playback devices, and SFX playback computer are housed.

~Dave


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## appsys (Sep 5, 2011)

museav said:


> On the remote gain control, I'm not a fan of products that are effectively DIY modifications. But ignoring that, while remote gain control is definitely nice to have, I don't believe you get any signal level, signal presence or clipping indication with the approach linked, which to me would make it of significantly less value.


 
You see both "signal presence" and "clipping indication" on any ADAT signal level meter - even better than on ADA8000's LEDs (that's how most of my customers do it).

Regards,
Rolf


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## SHARYNF (Sep 5, 2011)

appsys said:


> You see both "signal presence" and "clipping indication" on any ADAT signal level meter - even better than on ADA8000's LEDs (that's how most of my customers do it).
> 
> Regards,
> Rolf



Rolf glad to see you joining the discussion 
Sharyn


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## SHARYNF (Sep 5, 2011)

appsys said:


> You see both "signal presence" and "clipping indication" on any ADAT signal level meter - even better than on ADA8000's LEDs (that's how most of my customers do it).
> 
> Regards,
> Rolf


 

So specifically how on the LS9 would this be visible? 
Sharyn


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## SHARYNF (Sep 6, 2011)

DaveySimps said:


> We use it in addition to, so that we have a total of 64 inputs. The 32 at the stage, and another 32 at FOH mix, where our wireless rack, playback devices, and SFX playback computer are housed.
> 
> ~Dave


So since you are using the remote input system, what are your thoughts on a poor mans solution of A: just two ADA8000 with Adat/cat5 and probably a coax line for word clock in OR
the system from Rolf that adds remote gain control to the ADA8000 or And the even more complete solution from Appsys. Do you find that you are tweaking the head amp levels during an event or is it more set it and forget it with the Faders doing the job ?

the Yamaha offered system is the best integrated etc, but at this point quite pricy for a lot of folks

Sharyn


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## DaveySimps (Sep 6, 2011)

I agree that the price point for the SB168 is not cost effective for many. I would say that any solution you devise should absolutely have head amp control at the board. No matter how good the band is, or how well you feel you have the show dialed in, I would just not be comfortable at all leaving that to chance.

~Dave


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## museav (Sep 6, 2011)

SHARYNF said:


> So specifically how on the LS9 would this be visible?


And is it showing the signal level after the A/D conversion? Clipping the analog input of the A/D is not a good thing and I believe that monitoring and controlling the analog signal prior to A/D is important, you can monitor the digital signal level and adjust the digital gain post the A/D all you want but that won't affect what is happening before the A/D. However, many digital interfaces and digital consoles provide little or no control and/or monitoring of the analog signal prior to the A/D conversion. This is definitely a cost issue but many people seem to not understand what the 'headamp' indicators and controls on some devices are actually metering and controlling or that the physical and remote indicators and controls may not be the same.

Just as an example, the Aphex 1788A allows remote control and monitoring but all filtering, gain, level detection, etc. occur in the analog realm prior to the A/D conversion. The 1788A is not in everyone's budget nor are digital consoles that include similar analog input (and output) level control and monitoring but the difference in what is being monitored and controlled is something that seems to often be overlooked.


Some other common considerations with external preamps include whether, and how, you can save and recall the preamp settings as part of the mixing console scenes. And that shared preamps, i.e. one preamp being used to derive multiple FOH, monitor, recording, etc. mixes, result in any change to a preamp affecting all mixes. Both of these may be addressed in different ways by different devices or may not be addressed at all by some devices but they are something that may need to be considered.


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## appsys (Sep 6, 2011)

museav said:


> And is it showing the signal level after the A/D conversion? Clipping the analog input of the A/D is not a good thing and I believe that monitoring and controlling the analog signal prior to A/D is important.



No, an ADAT level meter (I use the one from my RME HDSP 9632 soundcard) shows the level after A/D conversion, but it does exactly what the LED indicators of the ADA8000 (which live in the analog domain) say. 


*Minimal signal (just enough that the green "Signal" LED on the ADA8000 goes on):*




*One before "too much" (the red "Clip" LED is still off):*




*And one gain step more, clipping starts:*


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## museav (Sep 6, 2011)

appsys said:


> No, an ADAT level meter (I use the one from my RME HDSP 9632 soundcard) shows the level after A/D conversion, but it does exactly what the LED indicators of the ADA8000 (which live in the analog domain) say.


So are the clipping indicators tied to an analog clip detector, to 0dBFS before the digital gain or to 0dBFS after the digital gain?

Just to be clear, you won't get remote analog metering and controls on most lower/reasonable cost interfaces and digital mixers so I'm not denigrating any specific devices. The issue is that I keep encountering people talking about addressing input clipping via digital metering and gain controls when you typically have to find a single line for the device to tell what the related clipping or level indicators are indicating and where the digital gain control is controlling and even then it's not always clear. I have also heard from some very reputable sources that for a number of reasons some digital consoles and preamps are designed so that the analog input circuitry of the preamp clips before the A/D input, meaning that although you may hear the analog clipping, any clipping indication based on the digital signal may not be accurately reflecting any clipping prior to the A/D. In that case adjusting the digital signal level after the A/D may make it appear that the clipping went away when the analog clipping has not changed.

Just curious, but are the upper levels in those screen shots dBFS? That's another area that seems to often confuse people, some digital devices directly meter dBFS while others appear to try to relate the digital signal level displayed to the comparable analog level (e.g. any digital console with meters displaying the digital level and having a value greater than 0). I recall one person on another forum wondering why everything was so distorted when they were barely hitting 0 on the meters, not realizing that their new digital console was displaying dBFS and while 0 on their old analog console indicated a nominal operating level, often 0dBu or +4dBu, 0 on their new digital console indicated the maximum digital level possible and was comparable to +20 to +24 on a typical analog console. It wouldn't stop such mistakes but in this day of both analog and digital signals it would be really nice if anything displaying absolute levels would indicate the reference value (dBu, dBV, dBFS, etc.).

I'm really not trying to be a pain here but the differences in levels, what is being controlled, etc. between analog and digital devices is often one of the areas with which people making the transition either way can struggle. And the manufacturers often aren't real helpful in making that any easier via their labeling and the information in manuals.


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## SHARYNF (Sep 6, 2011)

appsys said:


> No, an ADAT level meter (I use the one from my RME HDSP 9632 soundcard) shows the level after A/D conversion, but it does exactly what the LED indicators of the ADA8000 (which live in the analog domain) say.
> 
> 
> *Minimal signal (just enough that the green "Signal" LED on the ADA8000 goes on):*
> ...


So the question is Possibly for the LS9 folks out there, If you have via the My16At card two ADA8000's do you have access to a similar display of levels, so that this basic metering functionality is available and therefore a remote controlled ADA8000 will still be able to have a metering feedback to use for setting the levels remotely

Sharyn


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## SHARYNF (Sep 6, 2011)

Yamaha support did confirm that while it is only possible to run EITHER studion manager or stage mix, the LS9 can simultaneously still have the standard midi port active and working

SO it would seem that using this path, with the Midi remote control for the ADA8000 it should be possible to control the levels. 
The question would remain as to if these midi messages could them be stored in scene so that the remote settings via midi of the input levels for the ADA could be recalled.

Sharyn


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## appsys (Sep 8, 2011)

SHARYNF said:


> The question would remain as to if these midi messages could them be stored in scene so that the remote settings via midi of the input levels for the ADA could be recalled.
> Sharyn



I don't know the LS9 in "Hardware", but from reading the manual I doubt it's possible. To be on the safe side, I would go either with a Behringer BCR2000 where a template is available and I can confirm that all store/recall things are working, or with a PC software solution (standalone or VST plugin - coming soon on appsys.ch)


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