# College Radio Budget Decisions! HELP



## ksmalk08 (Apr 16, 2010)

Hi there,

Im the tech director for my schools Internet radio station - we don't have an FM station. We just got our budget for the next year and I'm responsible for deciding on how it is used. 

Here is what we do: On a daily basis students come in to the studio and plug their laptops or ipods into our mixer and use the mics connected to the mixer. The output then goes directly from the mixer to the Mac we use which runs our software to broadcast on the internet.

Here is our current equipment (This is EVERYTHING we have):
Alesis iMultimix 8 mixer
Mac running Backbone software
two AKG perception 220 mics
tabltop mic stands
Sennheiser HD202 headphones

Our budget for next year (increased greatly from previous years):
Tools, Implements, Instruments $ 1,430.00 
Dues, Licenses, Memberships $ 2,825.00 
Office Supplies $ 150.00 
TOTAL: $ 4,405.00

What Ive planned on buying:
Continue with Backbone software: $2800
Interface:Apogee Duet interface - $500
Mixer:Allen & Heath ZED-14 - $400
Power Conditioner: Furman M-8x - $50
Headphones: Sony MDR-7506 -$99
Studio Monitors: KRK Rokit 5 - $300 pair
Sonic Maximizer: BBE 362 - $100
Compressor/Gate: dbx 266XL - $150
Rackmounts: South Florida Racks Basic Series 8U - $55
Telescoping Microphone Boom: Heil PL-2T - $110
Acoustic Insulation Foam: $500 worth
Additional Cables: Monoprice XLR/TRS cables - $75


please let me know what you think of my potential upgrades - this is important to me and the school.

- Kurt


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## DuckJordan (Apr 16, 2010)

is there a reason you need studio monitors, in a radio situation i think the worst thing you could do is put a live sound in the room with mics. I would put everyone on headsets, and use a splitter from the headset pos on the board. Unfortunatly my experience with internet radio is from a home computer using pirate cast and pre recording anything that was going to air.


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## ksmalk08 (Apr 16, 2010)

The monitors would be going in the control room - separate from the Mics

- unfortunately I've started to set up mics in the control room because there arent enough people to man the mixer and still have someone live. No one really uses the monitors anyway. Maybe just cut them?


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## DuckJordan (Apr 16, 2010)

i would do that and spend the money elsewhere, If it gets big enough where you absolutely need them then your probably going to get a bigger budget as well.


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## ksmalk08 (Apr 16, 2010)

OK probably a good idea - any other things of note you would change in my shoes?


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## DuckJordan (Apr 16, 2010)

Not that i can see if someone else who has had more experience in this would jump in. Um another possibility, do you have problems with your low end over the internet? because the sonic maximizer which i have never used but from some articles i just read through sound like it times frequencies? 

Um... Wish i had more experience with more advanced hardware...


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## fx120 (Apr 16, 2010)

I'm also going to say that you're dumping to much cash on the Duet. Don't get me wrong, it's a nice unit, but there are less expensive options out there that will have less than steller mic pres (which you won't be using anyways), but will have perfectly good A/D converters. 

Take the money you save and buy a good large diaphragm dynamic (RE-20, SM-7, PR-40), I think you'll find you prefer any of those over the AKG's.

Toss out the sonic maximizer, it's a gimmicky piece of junk. 

I'd also hold back on the monitors for now, unless you're going to have someone besides the host operating the console. Buy more headphones instead.


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## ksmalk08 (Apr 16, 2010)

Maybe another question I should ask you guys - What do you think is ESSENTIAL for this round of the budget given what we have? what would you put the most money into whats most important? A new mixer? an interface? What should I really be focusing on?


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## ksmalk08 (Apr 16, 2010)

yeah the quality of the A/D converters is really a Key thing i think. What other models should I look into? I have a presonus Firestudio and happen to love it.

and yeah I think im going to dump the monitors - and the insulation and opt for home made carpets made by our artsy girls haha

also - if I invest in some high-end mics - but have shitty mixers and A/D converters ... how does that chain add up? (kind of rhetorical but how should I balance it?)


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## DuckJordan (Apr 16, 2010)

With 1,400 to spend, I would definately update the mixer, i would also invest in some Direct Boxes just in case, i guess for the mixer i wouldn't go much larger than a 12 input mixer unless you see expansion happening within the next 4 years.


as for mics even if you have a crappy mixer or if you stick with the one you have you'll most likely notice the difference with higher end mics. I myself am working with a 15 year old system that has a Soundcraft LX7 Spirit (origional) and some decent mics, but when we had to rent some mics even with the junk mixer it sounded cleaner. so instead of like on a power train where the weakest component holds everything else back mixing is kinda like whatever you can update helps.


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## ksmalk08 (Apr 16, 2010)

OK - yeah mixer definately dosent need to be big - in fact 4 channels is most likely enough - maybe 8 to be safe - but theres really not much high-end in that small of size - do you know of any good small ones? And i dont see expansion happening - except for a Mobile DJ setup next budget term including PA speakers and other mobiel stuff. 

DI boxes yeah got those


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## DuckJordan (Apr 16, 2010)

ksmalk08 said:


> OK - yeah mixer definately dosent need to be big - in fact 4 channels is most likely enough - maybe 8 to be safe - but theres really not much high-end in that small of size - do you know of any good small ones? And i dont see expansion happening - except for a Mobile DJ setup next budget term including PA speakers and other mobiel stuff.
> 
> DI boxes yeah got those




Mackie makes some pretty decent although if you have the money Allen & Heath are amazing, i have never been disappointed with either brand. I would stay away from the behringer stuff as its more catered to the struggling artist band member.


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## ksmalk08 (Apr 17, 2010)

yeah I agree behringer stuff is trash - I tried it once and learned my lesson - crapping out on me at a huge school function in front of my profs ahaha (I have a Soundtracs Topaz that I brought as well thanks be to god)

- but yeah does A&H make anything smaller than the ZED-14 that has sliders?
I could go with the WZ3:12:2 but then thats pretty much our budget right there.


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## DuckJordan (Apr 17, 2010)

Nothing recently, i don't believe...

(correct me if i'm wrong)


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## mbenonis (Apr 17, 2010)

I think the monitors are a good idea. The way it works at WUVT-FM (the student radio station at Virginia Tech) is that the monitors play the air feed (actually taken off of an FM receiver tuned to 90.7 MHz) at all times, except when a mic is hot. When mics are hot, the speakers mute automatically and air staff must wear headphones (which I believe also monitor air, and are not pre-transmitter). This way, the person in the studio knows *exactly* what listeners hear.

Might want to put a bit of money into an RE-20, as someone stated above. It'll probably sound better than the AKG (though it may be hard to hear via streaming). ZED-14 looks OK to me (though in the future you should save up for a read broadcast desk, and not a live desk). I'm not too familiar with the other gear, so I'll let others guide you there.

Mike
Staff Engineer, WUVT-FM (Class C3, 6.5 kW from the top of Price Mountain, VA...  )


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## ksmalk08 (Apr 17, 2010)

At the moment we are really a fledgling station here - we have no FM frequency - only 256Kbps. Our university actually has the second oldest college radio station in the country - but in recent years it has really gone under after we lost our FM frequency - and we cant get it back. 

Id love to get to the point of haveing a real desk - but thats MANY MANY years - and many tech directors away from where we are now. You are very lucky where you are at with VT were not even back in that realm yet. 

Right now im focusing on what we have and trying to improve it - 

If you had to prioritize the items you would get with this budget (and given what we currently have) what would you be buying? 

Ultimately i think our bigger issue is popularity on campus - but thats not my forte


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## mbenonis (Apr 17, 2010)

If I were in the position to buy for you, I would probably go for a bigger desk, better mics + "real" radio mic booms, studio monitors, a compressor (maybe something multiband instead of a 266xl), and maybe a new computer interface. I'd also buy 2-3 real CD players and tell air staff to lose their iPods and such. Might also get turntables, though you probably don't have thousands of records in the stacks.

Foam is nice, but I bet you can do it much more cheaply than $500. While new headphones are nice, the HD202's aren't bad and will probably serve just fine. Scrap the sonic maximizer...a good compressor will do the job just fine.

Does that help?


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## ksmalk08 (Apr 17, 2010)

definately - most of that stuff I agree with for sure - maximizer you can consider scrapped (ive never used one actually)
CD players and turntables (SL-1200s haha) we have but havent been used - ever - as far as i know - we do have thousands of vinyl records actually - prolly a thousand or so 45rpms haha. But really the Djs we have are primarily interested in blasting party music and having their friends hear tham talk - thats it. Most dont know how to operate a mixer sadly.

Why the bigger desk though? We have no more than two people on at a time and only one line input. Whats the best small mixer money can buy? Is an A&H ZED-14 really it?


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## DuckJordan (Apr 17, 2010)

ksmalk08 said:


> definately - most of that stuff I agree with for sure - maximizer you can consider scrapped (ive never used one actually)
> CD players and turntables (SL-1200s haha) we have but havent been used - ever - as far as i know - we do have thousands of vinyl records actually - prolly a thousand or so 45rpms haha. But really the Djs we have are primarily interested in blasting party music and having their friends hear tham talk - thats it. Most dont know how to operate a mixer sadly.
> 
> Why the bigger desk though? We have no more than two people on at a time and only one line input. Whats the best small mixer money can buy? Is an A&H ZED-14 really it?




well its the smallest allen and heath make, i bet i could find a smaller one but it wont have sliders.


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## mbenonis (Apr 17, 2010)

Down the road you may want to have lots of things hooked up at once. For instance, if you connected both CD players, both turntables, two mics, a studio computer, and an aux input, that puts you right at 14 channels (in stereo). Just because you don't use the CD decks all the time doesn't necessarily mean that you shouldn't have them connected (and plus, you might want to start nudging the airstaff towards CD's and vinyl...we take great pride in our vinyl collection at WUVT and the turntables get used for almost every single show in some fashion).

Also--that mixer can get moved to the remote rack and/or live rig if you upgrade in the future.


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## ksmalk08 (Apr 17, 2010)

I will certainly suggest people use the vinyl more - right now weve got literally an entire classroom size room full of them. 

And yeah we will definately not scrap the old mixer - it will most likely end up with out mobile setup which is expected to become a reality spring of next year. 

So the ZED-14 people seem to like then? I think thats what Ill end up goign with

now - people have brought up the issue of an interface - do I need one with this mixer -no - but should I be using one especially if its going to be an apogee? or would you save that money and reinvest it elsewhere and just hook the mixer directly into the computer with USB - then wont I also bypass my racks with the compressor and whatnot? how Can i integrate the compressor and other rack gear if i use USB.


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## DuckJordan (Apr 17, 2010)

that will be for your outgoing signal, you don't need an interface if you have a mixer. an interface is just to be able to connect to a computer if you don't have a board.


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## ksmalk08 (Apr 17, 2010)

we technically dont have any outgoing signal except an internet broadcast - so let me try to restate my question here:

I can go XLRmaster out of the ZED into the apogee's TRS stereo inputs into the computer which broadcasts it. If I use the USB connection of the ZED to connect directly to the computer - therres no way to incorperate a compressor in there right? (also eliminates need for an interface as well)


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## DuckJordan (Apr 17, 2010)

ksmalk08 said:


> we technically dont have any outgoing signal except an internet broadcast - so let me try to restate my question here:
> 
> I can go XLRmaster out of the ZED into the apogee's TRS stereo inputs into the computer which broadcasts it. If I use the USB connection of the ZED to connect directly to the computer - therres no way to incorperate a compressor in there right? (also eliminates need for an interface as well)




You don't need the USB connection, its just a bonus for if you want to do some recording. basicly your setup would be this

Mics/CD/Computer 
goes into
Mixer
which goes to
Compressor
Which goes to 
(how you get to your computer from an XLR or TRS)
which then gets broadcast over the internet


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## ksmalk08 (Apr 17, 2010)

yeah the "how you get to your computer from TRS" is going to be the Apogee Duet interface - but thanks a bunch for clearing up that the USB is just a bonus.


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## DuckJordan (Apr 17, 2010)

so on that if you want to save some money on getting away from digital to spend on something else you could always just stick to an analog mixer...


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## ksmalk08 (Apr 17, 2010)

yeah - i agree - but even still - what better analog mixer is there out there for $400 that has small amounts of inputs and is also made by a highly respectable company like A&H? idk maybe there is one.


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## mbenonis (Apr 17, 2010)

The ZED-14 should have an Insert jack on the Main L/R input; this is where you put the compressor. All of this said, the fact that the ZED-14 is half the cost of the Wiz3 console makes me wonder though...why is it so cheap, especially with an analog to digital converter on board? Might look at some reviews.


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## museav (Apr 17, 2010)

You asked what to focus on and in order to assess that, perhaps it would help if you provided more detail on the facility, the use and your goals. For example, better mics and interfaces may be nice but if the result is primarily hearing any HVAC noise or students in the adjacent hallway better, then those may not be the best place to invest your budget. Factors such as whether you do just single DJ type shows or also have talk or live interview programming or whether you have shows involving multiple students may affect the equipment and the facilities. So may the potential move away from separate studio and control room to a combined function.

For example, why are you considering 'acoustic insulation foam'? Is it to solve a specific problem or simply because it makes it look like a radio station? Does it being installed in a University facility affect what can be used, such as requiring it to be fire retardant? This general concept actually applies to pretty much all of the items listed, are you getting them to provide a specific functionality or address an existing deficiency or are they more because of a perception they are needed? It is difficult for us to judge the potential value without a good basis.

In addition, I am a little confused by the budget numbers. You note a budget that includes $1,430 for tools, instruments, etc., $2,825 for dues, licenses and memberships and $150 for office supplies, for a total of $4,405. You then indicate $5,139 worth of equipment and services you are considering but that seems incomplete. What about rights licensing, is that covered by someone else, such as the University having a blanket license? What about tools, maintenance, supplies, etc.? How much of your $4,405 budget is realistically available for the types of purchases noted?

As far as specific gear, let's start with the BBE 362 Sonic Maximizer. For one thing, that is an unbalanced unit not in keeping with the other changes noted, you'd probably want the 882i that has balanced I/O. But even then, what leads you to include this unit in your list? Similar for the compressor, assessing whether it is the right tool for that job or is a priority depends on how you envision using it and what you expect.

I'm also not real clear on how you plan to configure everything with the interface, computer, mixer, etc. If you were thinking of the Apogee interface being solely to get the mixer output into the Mac, then how do you plan to get the students' iPods and laptops into the mixer? I would look at getting a couple of interfaces like the Whirlwind pcDI or the ProCO iFace/iRack or the Radial Engineering JPC/ProAV2.

Years ago when I was involved in college radio (back in the days of turntables, reel-to-reels and carts) the control room and studio had been already been combined into one function at our station with the old control room becoming the record library. We used monitors much as Mike described, to monitor the live signal and for cueing as well as when producing station promos, PSAs, etc. The monitors were cut off whenever a mic was switched live on the console. I would hate being tied down to headphones all the time.

I would skip the low cost power 'conditioner' and consider getting a good UPS for your computer, perhaps even large enough to keep you online during brief outages.


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## ksmalk08 (Apr 17, 2010)

Well here is the deal - we are moving into a new studio next year. The building is just being built over the summer to technically were not in the building yet - but we have to choose our equipment now - otherwise we lose the money for funding. We are expected to have near silent HVAC system installed - i specifically told the engineers about that. Also, we may get some acoustic triangles in the room already installed form the party hall that is going next door to us (dont worry about that). But yeah - does it make it look like a radio station? yes. Does it help a bit with the echo in the room (with concrete floors and some carpeting on them) yes. So it kind of does both. It does need to be fire retardant. The potential value? its less functional that it is image. Were no where near professional at this point so haveing people "feel" like this is a real radio is important. 

As for the financial aspect - yes I went a bit over budget with what I listed there - were going to have to cut a few things out - the $500 for insulation may be cut out as well as some other things - thats why I'm asking you experts here - maybe to help cut things out. The school has blanket liscencing for rights. The full 4.4K IS available to us but as I noted 2.8 goes to the software. So its really 4.4K - 2.8K that I have to work with for new gear. Matinence goes into a seperate budget as the year goes on - and I have to plead for that seperately. 

Compressor and Maximizer arent essential - but where else can my money go - 

Mixer accepts the ipod inputs via a 3.5mm - stereo TS cable. Then from mixer into interface into computer. 

The software we have actually does store all of our automated playlists on their own servers so if we have a power outage it still plays.


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## DuckJordan (Apr 17, 2010)

upon that information, if you get a new mixer you will need to use a DI box to connect an Ipod or a computer using the 3.5mm jacks otherwise your audio quality will be about as bad as a cheap car radio tape deck. My suggestion instead of spending hundreds of dollars on acoustical materials get your audio quality as high as you can with your budget more listeners= more budget. I would also try to get students to realize that if they are planning on going into radio Ipods are not allowed at all to be plugged into systems. at least not in my area. As stated above, a control room + studio combo would be better for your situation as it would make the station able to be run by one person very efficiently.


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## ksmalk08 (Apr 17, 2010)

OK - so from ipod (theoretically, although ill talk to people about that) - to DI box - to Mixer?

The acoustical materials you can consider cut - Ill handle that in a "home made" sort of way.


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## DuckJordan (Apr 17, 2010)

ksmalk08 said:


> OK - so from ipod (theoretically, although ill talk to people about that) - to DI box - to Mixer?
> 
> The acoustical materials you can consider cut - Ill handle that in a "home made" sort of way.




yes you'll find it will give you a better quality audio and give you more headroom on the mixer.

as far as acoustical materials just search the forum there are some really good links and tutorials on how to make your own acoustical treatments. plus when it comes down to it unless you've been trained on how to put acoustical treatments in spending the money for real acoustical material is just a waste since every inch doesn't need to be covered.

(two years ago i attempted to acoustic treat our small black box control booth to reduce echo)


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## ksmalk08 (Apr 17, 2010)

OK - so - based on what Ive gathered from this forum so far (which is alot thanks so much)

Im going to cut:
Power conditioner -$50
Acoustical treatment -$500
Maximizer -$100
Headphones: -$100

Add:
home made insulation: +$50 (girls can get carpets and stuff together)
DI boxes: +$150-$200


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## Traitor800 (Apr 17, 2010)

As a side note have you contacted the radio stations at your neighboring schools and asked them for input? Clarkson and Potsdam both have decent radio stations that do internet broadcast as well as fm broadcast, and from time to time do have some pretty knowledgeable people in them. Despite the the fact that you go to SLU the Clarkson Station I know is pretty well equipped and the guys would probably give you a tour and chat with you if you asked.

-Chris
Clarkson Alum


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## museav (Apr 17, 2010)

I have to disagree a bit on some of the comments. If the studio is being built then now is the time to most cost effectively address things like acoustics and power that you will probably have to live with for some time. You can probably address a lot of the equipment issues at any time, it's a little less effective to have to be tearing open walls, covering over finishes you already paid for, running surface conduit in a brand new space, etc. Also, if you will have open mics then the studio acoustics will potentially affect the audio quality. Why spend any money on mics unless you are going to be using them in a good environment? Get a good foundation as far as the facility and your options in the future will likely be better.

Carpet belongs on the floor, not the walls. Along with not being nearly as good an acoustical material as some think, carpet is sometimes not rated for vertical applications. Some of the shaped foam products certainly offer the look you may be going for and may be acoustically effective treatments but they may also be easy to damage, so keep that in mind. Along the same lines, DIY acoustical treatments are certainly possible but aspects such as fire ratings and durability may make some options less practical. Keep in mind that many materials and methods that may be perfectly fine in home studios may not be effective or even permitted in commercial construction.

Just a detail in terminology but while fiberglass insulation may be used for room acoustics, acoustical "insulation" typically references sound isolation rather than absorption. They're both aspects to consider, isolation of the studio to/from surrounding spaces and acoustics within the studio, but it is not always clear which is being discussed.


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## ksmalk08 (Apr 17, 2010)

To Chris: WOAH! SUNY Clarkson? Cluck Farkson! - Im sorry but I have no interest in dealing with the lowlifes from Farkson - I'm suprised you guys were even smart enough to have a radio station ahhahahah kidding kidding. Actually I think that is a good idea - I have my car up here - Ill give them a call this week and ask for a tour. 

To Brad: Yeah sadly I didnt have much control over what the engineers decided to do - in fact KSLU had very little say in that. They had a certain budget and they did what they did (or will do).


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## TimmyP1955 (Apr 18, 2010)

Scratch the Maximizer/Exciter. Rubbish.

Get some headphones that sound good:

Max isolation, good to VG sound: ExtremeHeadphones EX29 (latest version only).

Good isolation, good to VG sound: M-Audio IE10 earbuds.

Good isolation, good sound: Sennheiser 280.

No isolation, best sound: Grado (all are a good value, but preferably the model 125 or better).

Poor isolation, mediocre sound: Sony 7506.


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## RonaldBeal (Apr 18, 2010)

Background:
Restricted radiotelephone License since 1989.
On air at WMGA, WSLE, WPAX, WMTS, and WNAR 1989-1995

I'm going to take a slightly different approach.
A back-up Mac and audio interface. Computer craps out and you've lost everything... most of the rest, you can improvise around.


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## ksmalk08 (Apr 20, 2010)

In response to Ronald Beal: Buying a backup computer definately makes sense if we didnt have the support of the school. If we did happen to lose the computer due to something - they would lend us one temporarily until we buy another one of our own. Actually thats what were doing right now.


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## bishopthomas (Apr 20, 2010)

A backup is only useful if you can seamlessly (or at least quickly) switch over to it when needed. Having hours of downtime while you're trying to borrow someone's computer doesn't seem acceptable to me.


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## ksmalk08 (Apr 20, 2010)

Actually it can be done seamlessly - since our softwae is backed up on network srevers we can continue to stream if we either have no computer or lose power temporarily. Our IT dept. is pretty responsive and would be able to replace our computer within a day or two.


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## bishopthomas (Apr 20, 2010)

Sounds like you have that under control then. Nice job.


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