# Full Sail University



## GoboMan (Dec 4, 2013)

What are people's thoughts about Full Sail University? I've been looking into it and upon looking through the website it seems to offer everything that a lighting designer or techie would ever want in a school. It is quite expensive, however. A degree in show production would cost around $70,000. 

Has anyone here attended and/or graduated from Full Sail? If so, what was your experience like? I'm very interested in learning more about it. 

Thanks!


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## cmckeeman (Dec 4, 2013)

I have worked with some great people who came out of full sail and they all called it a rip off...


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## Footer (Dec 4, 2013)

Do a search for Full Sail, it has come up plenty of times before. We have a few graduates around here that go both ways... and we have some people, including myself, that hire people that also have opinions on it...


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## DuckJordan (Dec 4, 2013)

Everything I've ever heard come out of full sail is if they don't have it going in they wont have it coming out...


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## Edrick (Dec 4, 2013)

I thought it was well worth it. But it's all about you having the ambition. If you don't have the drive and the spark it's easy to come out of there with a degree. But still no way to get a job. If you go in with the drive and you use it to your advantage your opportunities are endless. Most of the ones I've heard ragging on the school went to some other program at another school and a lot of full sail students can run circles around them. However every school has their bad apples. So I'm sure there's people from other schools who can run circles around full sail kids. 

As far as the cost unless you become successful I would say the cost is high. However if you're able to make it happen what you can learn there can be invaluable. I still can't give an answer if the cost was worth it. But I think in the end it will be.


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## porkchop (Dec 4, 2013)

I've said it before on this page, but I see Full Sail is an amplifier. If you're a good technician (first lesson stop staying techie) and you belong in the theatre doing great things, then FS will give you the hands on experience to really be a great employee. On the other hand if you have an over inflated ego going in and you're already a pain for the rest of the backstage crew, then once you graduate you're going to be that guy that everyone dislikes and makes a bad name for both FS and the crew in general.

Full Sail gets a bad rap because they don't seem to ask many questions. You want to pay $70k for a piece of paper that says you attended classes on moving lights, lighting design, and rigging? They'll be happy to give it to you, but notice I said attended the class not learned how to do the act effectively. They'll provide the information, but you still have to actually put in the effort to learn what your doing.


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## bishopthomas (Dec 19, 2013)

I have a pretty strong opinion about Full Sail but I'll hold back (a bit).  I considered attending when I was in high school but even then (2000) I had heard opinions which I, to this day, agree with. Waste of money. You're going to drop tens of thousands of dollars on "education" then almost certainly start your career as a case pusher. This is something you'll do without the piece of paper that goes along with the massive debt you'll have. When I was thinking about going I was wanting to go the studio recording route (thank god I changed my mind there). Everyone I talked to (including some major names in the business) said to either start sweeping floors in a studio or spend the 50 G's on equipment and just go for it. You kind of either have it or you don't. Now, I'm not saying that Full Sail or similar schools are worthless and you will learn nothing, but I (and many others) believe that there are far better ways to invest your time and money into your career. 

Quite honestly when I get a resume with Full Sail on it it goes to the bottom of the list (depending on the rest of the resume, of course). I work with a guy frequently who goes to some kind of audio school and I've had to get a little nasty with him when he thinks he knows more than he does. "You aren't in school. Do what the flick I told you and don't ask another question or make a suggestion!" With 15 minutes of festival changeover with cross patching and band consoles/IEM's/mics I don't have time to explain the reason why I don't give a sh!t what your teacher said.

Oops, I said I'd hold back....


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## bishopthomas (Dec 19, 2013)

On a more positive note.....  When people ask me advice on Full Sail type of schools I usually recommend getting a "real" degree from a university, typically some type of business degree. I know if I could do it again I would at least take some classes so I at least know what the heck I'm doing out here in the world of running a business. Marketing would be a good choice as well.

Honestly, if I could go back in time I'd get a marine bio degree and be on a boat right now.


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## gafftaper (Dec 19, 2013)

porkchop said:


> I've said it before on this page, but I see Full Sail is an amplifier. If you're a good technician (first lesson stop staying techie) and you belong in the theatre doing great things, then FS will give you the hands on experience to really be a great employee. On the other hand if you have an over inflated ego going in and you're already a pain for the rest of the backstage crew, then once you graduate you're going to be that guy that everyone dislikes and makes a bad name for both FS and the crew in general.




Edrick said:


> I thought it was well worth it. But it's all about you having the ambition. If you don't have the drive and the spark it's easy to come out of there with a degree. But still no way to get a job. If you go in with the drive and you use it to your advantage your opportunities are endless. Most of the ones I've heard ragging on the school went to some other program at another school and a lot of full sail students can run circles around them. However every school has their bad apples. So I'm sure there's people from other schools who can run circles around full sail kids.



Interesting I think we just had a person who is mostly pro Full Sail and one who is mostly anti Full Sail both essentially identify the same problem. As an institution Full Sail seems to be focused on getting your money in and making sure you get out the door with a degree. Traditional educational institutions are less focused on the input and output of the program and are more focused on the educational journey in the middle. As a result perhaps Full Sail doesn't change you and mold you as much as a traditional program would... this could be good or bad.

Opinions on Full Sail are definitely wide and extreme. Is Bishop just pointed out, there are many around the industry who immediately put Full Sail grads at the bottom of their list. On the other hand there are some who look at it favorably. Personally I advise students to pursue a traditional education. I encourage students to take as broad of a education as possible their first two years of college. Take some art history, business classes, computer science, history... these will make you a much more rounded person and help you in many ways later in tech theater. Then in years three and four focus hard on tech. 

Another point to consider. Let's say 20% of the people out there immediately toss applications from Full Sail grads. That means 1 in 5 jobs you do not have any chance at getting. But the person who went to the state school down the road and paid half of what you did for their education, does have a shot at. By the time you turn 30, no one will care where you went to school. They will only want to know what you've been doing for the last 5 years. If you think Full Sail puts you in the best position to be successful over those 5 years then go for it. After that it's all in who you know and who you impress with your skills on the job. 

Regardless of where you go, do not end up with $60k of debt in student loans and think you are going to get a $60k a year job and have that paid off in no time. You won't. In all likelihood, You will spend the first 5 years after college trying to piece together a living working at multiple venues making a hundred bucks a gig. Sometimes you'll be busy for a month straight, other times you'll go weeks without work. If you are good and lucky, eventually you will catch on and turn that into a regular gig. I have a friend who has a really awesome expensive theater degree that he has never been able to use. He got so far in debt he couldn't afford to work the low pay in theater and pay his loans back. So he works in an office. Now a decade later he's paid the loans but no one is going to hire you when you haven't done any tech in 10 years. So he's still stuck at his desk job. 

But before any of this advice, be sure you have read "Getting a job in the industry".


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## museav (Dec 21, 2013)

I happened to encounter a poor example of a Full Sail graduate. This individual had limited real world experience, no initiative, limited relevant skills, etc. but a chip on their shoulder because they weren't being put up on a pedestal for being a Full Sail grad. When I met them it became quite clear that they viewed their simply having attended Full Sail being more important than what they learned or the experienced gained during that time. And they seemed to expect their simply being a Full Sail grad to open doors and offer opportunities beyond those for which they were actually qualified.

They were hired to provide ProTools training but their employer quickly found that while they could use ProTools, they struggled with training anyone and seemed to blame that on the trainees rather than on themselves, after all, they had attended Full Sail. They tried moving them to other positions but found they struggled with just about any role as well as with working with others, especially those with greater experience and knowledge but without the magical Full Sail background.

They evenutally suckered someone else into believing they had greater ability than they did and their employer was happy to see them go.

I know that not all Full Sail graduates are like that but it is an example of how much that is a function of the individual and not Full Sail.


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## hobbsies (Dec 21, 2013)

I would imagine the corporate world suffers the above problem more than the freelance/theatre world, mostly because word of mouth is so much more powerful as a freelancer. You weed out the jerks with egos pretty quickly and just don't hire them next time around.


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## bclighting (Jan 1, 2014)

I know I'm a little late to this party, pretty much everything that has been said both good and bad is true. I'm a FS grad from 14 years ago. I was one of the few that had a job offer before I graduated. I went in with experience, in fact I changed programs in the second month because I realized that I already knew much of what they were going to teach in Show Pro so I switched to Film. I have NEVER used my FS education to get a job, I have let my experience and work ethic do it for me. Everyone that I have ever worked with has been surprised that I went there, I assume that is because of its bad rap. The main thing that I saw with people there is that they all wanted to be producers or directors but not work their way up. As for me, I have no problem pulling 4/0 or slinging cable. After graduating FS, I also worked on a union crew over the summer and learned as much, if not more, in those 3 months then I did in the previous year. 

The one thing that made FS valuable to me was my classmates. At 21 I was one of the youngest in my class. Most of my peers had been to a 4 year school, some were married, and MANY, if not all, were paying for this out of their own pocket. They were all mature and put the time in to get everything they could get out of it. A few other classes were not that fortunate, they were spoiled rich kids and people that just wanted to coast. I think my experience would have been much different if I had not been in a great class.

Some of the other advice I have heard given is to not go to school for design but to go for engineering or business. This is something that can help in many aspects of the job and even bail you out when work is slow. There are many times that I wish I had done just that.

We did joke in my class that if we had each taken our $25k (what is was back then) and pooled it together we would have had a decent short film budget.


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## MikeJ (Jan 18, 2014)

Most Full Sail grads I know, pretend not to be. They would say that they did not go to college, rather than admit to going to full sail.

They also say you leave Full sail with two things:
A ton of debt, and a cocaine habit.


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## Edrick (Jan 18, 2014)

I find the opposite everyone I know or at least have continued to associate myself with post graduation proudly states they're full sail graduates. They're also quite successful and actively involved in large productions. I find it funny how bad of a wrap people like to give full sail. I've met plenty of people from other universities who hate their school far worse. Like I said any school is going to have a bad crowd or sour people.


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## gafftaper (Jan 19, 2014)

Edrick said:


> I find it funny how bad of a wrap people like to give full sail. I've met plenty of people from other universities who hate their school far worse. Like I said any school is going to have a bad crowd or sour people.



Another interesting point in this whole discussion. Because Full Sail stands alone as the "University Alternative" it get's a lot of attention. There are plenty of bad technicians out there that come from state and private universities. However, they don't have as much attention drawn to the schools producing them because they tend to get lumped together as traditional education.

In the end, any school is a lot like Yoda's darkside cave on Dagobah. The most important part of any university is what you take in with you. If you are hardworking, smart, and a good team player, you will make a great technician no matter where you get your education. If you are self centered, lazy, and a bit dense, you will continue to be regardless of where you get your education.


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## porkchop (Jan 20, 2014)

Edrick said:


> I find the opposite everyone I know or at least have continued to associate myself with post graduation proudly states they're full sail graduates. They're also quite successful and actively involved in large productions. I find it funny how bad of a wrap people like to give full sail. I've met plenty of people from other universities who hate their school far worse. Like I said any school is going to have a bad crowd or sour people.



I'm willing to accept that Full Sail can be a good learning experience for the right person, but of all the professional stagehands I know that when there only one actually says it proudly. Most call it half mast or something like that, and a few others only tell you years down the line.


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## MNicolai (Jan 20, 2014)

Production studio nearby has a guy who went to FS. He'll readily admit he went there. He'd also admit he learned a lot there and skyrocketed himself into student loan debt there to the the tube of $50k, or $450/month.

His opinion is that the contacts and connections you'll make working are far more valuable than those you'll make at FS. Post-grad, he managed to land an internship at the studio he currently works at, and spent a good deal of time in that position until they gave him a full-time, salaried position.

On a broader level I'd agree with him. The connections made and experiences had actually working are far more valuable than what I've learned through my academics. There's a sizable difference between a graduate who's had no internships and a graduate who's had several in professionalism, problem-solving capabilities, and in their general working knowledge of their chosen craft. That goes for all higher learning institutions, not just FS.


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## gafftaper (Jan 20, 2014)

This goes back to an old theory of mine. There are three forces which affect your ability to get work as a young technician: Education, Hard Work (and the connections you have impressed with your hard work), and luck. You only need one of these to start your career but the more you have of one the less you need of the other two. 

Don't have much education? It'll take more hard work and luck to start your career. 

Did you get lots of experience doing summers stock, volunteering at a community theater, have an afternoon job doing grunt work in rental shop, etc while in high school? You need less education and luck to find work. 

Have a highly respected education? It will open doors for you that will require less hard work and luck.


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## kevlar557 (Apr 2, 2014)

I readily admit attending Full Sail. I also didn't expect to graduate and expect a job at Clair. I had some technical knowledge before coming in, but I took every opportunity that FS gave me to learn. I spent my required 8 hours on campus (4hrs lecture, 4 hrs lab), but I also volunteered to work on live labs (setup, run, and strike for a 45 minute set) whenever I could, and spent as much time in front of consoles and gear that they would let me. I got a ton out of it. But it alone might get you a job being a cable jockey at a sound company. Meet people, work for free if needed, do whatever you need to to get real world experience, and leave Full Sail as a place to expand on your skills.


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## Jakepugh15 (Apr 3, 2014)

Here's a question. Will an employer care more about the piece of paper from college or your references from past employers. For instance im planning on using the arena i work at now as a reference (as an asst. production manager)... with employers seeing this... is it even worth getting a degree?


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## Les (Apr 3, 2014)

Jakepugh15 said:


> Here's a question. Will an employer care more about the piece of paper from college or your references from past employers. For instance im planning on using the arena i work at now as a reference (as an asst. production manager)... with employers seeing this... is it even worth getting a degree?



I think the value of going or not is really up to interpretation. You will find 50/50 opinions and it comes down to what is right for you, especially in this field. I can say that [production industry] employers generally care A LOT more about what you've done in the real world than what you've studied or where. Notice that on most job postings they list their experience requirements, and may say they "prefer" a degree but they never REQUIRE a degree while listing experience as being optional.

You either need to have a degree + experience, or lots of good experience. If you have some decent experience, the degree probably won't boost you much unless it is in a very specific (and in-demand) discipline.


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## gafftaper (Apr 4, 2014)

Jakepugh15 said:


> Here's a question. Will an employer care more about the piece of paper from college or your references from past employers. For instance im planning on using the arena i work at now as a reference (as an asst. production manager)... with employers seeing this... is it even worth getting a degree?


Les nailed it pretty well on the head. 5 years of solid work and references and NO ONE will care where you went to school. The problem is having the knowledge to get hired for that first big break without going to school. Age is also a factor. If you are over 25 with no degree but solid references, you will probably be okay. But if you decide to drop out of school at 18 and try to find full time work good luck. You aren't going to break through . 

In the end, the less education you have the more hard work and luck you need to get started in this industry.


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## dsager (Jul 8, 2014)

GoboMan said:


> What are people's thoughts about Full Sail University? I've been looking into it and upon looking through the website it seems to offer everything that a lighting designer or techie would ever want in a school. It is quite expensive, however. A degree in show production would cost around $70,000.
> 
> Has anyone here attended and/or graduated from Full Sail? If so, what was your experience like? I'm very interested in learning more about it.
> 
> Thanks!


There are so many other colleges out there - I would research a few to compare to Full Sail before making a decision. Could I suggest Pace's Set design degree in New York City this program includes lighting design as well as scenery, costumes, sound and media.


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## LightingGuy89 (Jul 8, 2014)

As somebody who was in charge of hiring Audio and Lighting technicians in Central Florida, I was very familiar with the reputation of Full Sail. The program is very rushed IMO. You get a little information about a lot of topics in a condensed amount of time. The outcome is truly up to the individual, you get out what you put in definitely applied to the school.


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