# Another Genie lift question: Super Straddle users?



## BillConnerFASTC (Feb 13, 2014)

Do any of you use a Genie Lift with their Super Straddle base? Looking at one for a small K-8 PAC - yup - retro fit/fit out with Quartz house lights already installed and would use for a single FOH lighting pipe. Easy rolling path from shop/storage to house, rear of house, and down all ramped aisles. Pragmatic response to low ceiling and no catwalk and a space for a lot of assemblies and one or two "productions" a year. Would rely heavily on LED lighting to minimize lamp changes - though house lights will kill them anyway.

And we have retrofitting a catwalk and LED house lights and all that drawn and costed now - just trying to reduce and not over design for K-8.

So - users of Genies with Super Straddle base - are they a real S.O.B. to use - if you never have to disassemble or lift over steps?


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## derekleffew (Feb 13, 2014)

I never knew exactly how these worked, until watching this video:


I, too, am curious if it's as easy as it appears.


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## techieman33 (Feb 13, 2014)

If they don't have to take it apart it's not that hard to use. Last year a local church rented one to bring into our theater for their easter services. They couldn't find a tall enough genie to rent to reach their projector hanging off of one of our FOH catwalks and just rented it to get the extra height they needed. It took 4 people about 1.5-2 hours to put it together, it was the first time any of them had built one. After it was assembled and they figured out how everything worked things went pretty smoothly.


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## Jojomonkeyking (Feb 13, 2014)

We have one at my university (our pit platforms have no ratings so we don't put the lift on them and use the straddler to go from house floor to stage) if you know what you are doing, it is definitely as easy as that video makes it appear. We assemble ours for hang and take it apart once the show closes and repeat 4 times a year. If you never have to take it apart/move it over really difficult terrain/it can fit in the house, I would definitely go for it.


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## Footer (Feb 13, 2014)

We had one at my High School. It was a 1st generation. If you have the room to put it together on a flat surface they go together rather well. We sharpied ours our with "this end down hill, etc". The biggest announce of them is if you get them cranked up and realize that one of the legs did not lock/green light you are pretty much screwed. You have to pull the whole thing apart and try again. 

We also had a cable snap on ours once. It whipped the winch around so hard that it broke the kids arm who was cranking it. 

If it can be avoided... avoid it. If it can't, its better then an a-frame.


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## Calc (Feb 14, 2014)

Footer said:


> If it can be avoided... avoid it. If it can't, its better then an a-frame.



Agree. We have one, and almost never use it. Originally purchased to add the extra 4' or so to the lift. Would've been a scissor lift instead, but the pit cover wouldn't hold the weight.
They're not too bad once you put the whole thing together a couple of times. Just big and bulky. While you can usually manhandle just a lift around by yourself (yes, other people in the room), it takes two to move it in the straddle.
The local dealer who now services ours says that he's never actually sold one, and was surprised to see it. Apparently not a huge market.

Another note: While I'm sure they add stability to the lift by increasing the base footprint, most of the sway at height comes from the boom itself so you still end up with the same swing/wobble.


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## Scarrgo (Feb 14, 2014)

We use one at our venue to replace house lights, the only pain is pushing it up and down the isle, and between the seating, but if you have three or four people it is not an issue and is safe and easy to use.

Sean...


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## MattRosco (Feb 18, 2014)

I've used on for several years to get to FOH positions in a raked house, so my experience may be more demanding than the typical use. For occasional maint work I think it's a fine solution, for regular focus work it's a PITA and I wouldn't recommend it. 

-Matt


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## BillConnerFASTC (Feb 18, 2014)

These replies have been invaluable. Thanks.

I'm concluding not too bad in a K-8 that might hang or refocus a special for one event per year, and otherwise rely on LED as much as possible and still have to re-lamp their existing quartz houselights. Need to pay attention to route to storage for turning, and carpet-floor interface, especially on carpeted aisles. Toying with idea of some power device for the up and down aisle ramps.

Many thanks.


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## gafftaper (Feb 19, 2014)

If I am was the person leading the drama club in that school (odds are there's no drama classes in a K-8). I would be so thankful if there was some other way to access lights besides a Genie. The reality of what will happen in 3 or 4 years is that no one is going to know how to use that Genie. Risk Management will require training to operate it, but the people who would most like to use it will never get access to the training, and lights will go years without ever being touched. Eventually things will get bad enough and the poor drama club adviser will beg enough that the district will dispatch a couple of maintenance guys to adjust lights, during the summer when no one is there to tell them what is wanted. The will do a terrible job and no one will every touch the lights again. I've seen it happen time after time. 

Bill I think you are more in touch with reality than most, the fact that you are here talking with real people speaks volumes about your work. But in general architects and theater consultants really need to spend some time in the trenches in schools that are 5-10 years old to get an education on what actually happens in the buildings after they leave. I have dozens of issues in my new theater where I would love to know what weird reality the architect/consultant were in when they designed this space. 

Why do my LED aisle lights have a motion sensor and timer to turn them on/off? Is it to save 3 watts of electricity an hour? Is it to save the life of the 20,000 hour leds? OR Is it to make it more challenging for people to get up and leave the theater when act one runs long and the lights shut off? Why not just have an on off switch?


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## BillConnerFASTC (Feb 19, 2014)

You make good points but every situation is unique. There is no district, and practically no administration, as it is a charter school. No "they", only "us". And it is not the typical now or never situation - they are doing this out as part of their annual budget. I can't share the whole picture but we've cut everything else twice, and started modestly. But you make good points. I recall joining a group and when we toured some of my previous work they were surprised by how complete the coverage and quality of the catwalks and other technical circulation was.


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## gafftaper (Feb 22, 2014)

Again I want to stress that I think you are probably miles ahead of the average consultant @BillConnerASTC . The reason being that you are here with us, the real people who use the spaces you design. 

I painted for the first time in my new theater yesterday and noticed another stupid design flaw. There is a small bathroom style sink with a timed push down, twist for hot/cold, faucet. In the corner there is one of those custodial closet floor basin for dumping the mop bucket. Where am I supposed to clean my brushes? The previous manager put a lot stool in the corner to lean over the mop basin. 

What kind of idiot designs a shop with no way to clean a brush!?


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## BillConnerFASTC (Feb 23, 2014)

The problem is the designers lack of any idea of what goes on. The engineer showing the plumbing fixture was just told to put a sink in. Complicating this is the change from a time when the architects and engineers at the beginning of a project were on it throughout. Now its new faces at every turn. Owners - school boards or state bureaucracies or whomever - want services for less, and that hurts. Many on both sides don't know entertainment technology has changed in fifty years.


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## RickR (Feb 24, 2014)

Local HS just opened a heavily remodeled theater. 2 consultants, great contractor, many great improvements but repeated a major lighting mistake that was fixed in a 70s remodel. 

No good position to light the thrust down center!


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## BillConnerFASTC (Feb 24, 2014)

RickR said:


> Local HS just opened a heavily remodeled theater. 2 consultants, great contractor, many great improvements but repeated a major lighting mistake that was fixed in a 70s remodel.
> 
> No good position to light the thrust down center!


The growth of the forestage has complicated this. When there's was typically no forestage other than a slim strip of stage - often reduced by footlights - basically within the proscenium arch- on catwalk was fine. Nice to add box booms and balcony rail, but for McCandlass style lighting one catwalk usually sufficed. With an extend forestage and common pit cover, there's now twelve to twenty or mor feet downstage of the plaster line. It requires at least two catwalks for front lighting and I always plan on a catwalk over the forestage for top and backlight and miscellaneous hanging. Its a challenge to convince non-theatre people of the necessity for this change from fifty years ago. School administrators and architects are in that group often.

The sad part is that the cost of a catwalk is usually much less than those same people assume.


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## Malabaristo (Feb 24, 2014)

BillConnerASTC said:


> The sad part is that the cost of a catwalk is usually much less than those same people assume.



This. When I was involved in coming up with renovation plans for the high school I work at regularly (delayed indefinitely now do to funding issues), the architects were trying to convince us that there was no need for any FOH catwalks because we could just use automated lights in those positions. It was obvious they didn't get our arguments of why that was a terrible trade-off, so it pretty much came down to us saying, "No, we don't want that. Now let's move on." Somehow they honestly thought that purchasing and maintaining a large number of automated fixtures was more budget conscious than including catwalks in the design.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Feb 24, 2014)

I suppose it depends on what you consider an acceptable moving light but I'd put the catwalk cost at about 2 to 4 movers. Frightful when you think about it. The catwalk for the project that prompted my original post is estimated at around $12,000-13,000.


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## techieman33 (Feb 24, 2014)

BillConnerASTC said:


> I suppose it depends on what you consider an acceptable moving light but I'd put the catwalk cost at about 2 to 4 movers. Frightful when you think about it. The catwalk for the project that prompted my original post is estimated at around $12,000-13,000.



Even more so when you consider that the movers would probably be dead hung and a pain in the butt to access. And I've yet to run into a mover that I would feel comfortable leaving in one spot for what could be years without it needing maintenance.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Feb 24, 2014)

Well, I have once gone the mover route in place of a catwalk for reasons of historic preservation - just could not find an acceptable "slot". So, we ended up with movers on a winched batten. 

Another historic renovation we instead developed a system of two battens - one for lights and one for a focus track. Far from ideal but sometimes forced.

FWIW I think the project that began this will end up with a catwalk and the genie for house lights.


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## marmer (Jun 12, 2014)

We have one for the organ hall. It works as advertised but takes a while to set up. It is not a proper solution for venues with aisle steps or seating risers, however, not by a long shot. There's no safe way to lift it.


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## StradivariusBone (Jun 13, 2014)

One alternative is a straddling platform that scaffolding can be mounted on. Works very similar to the Genie version, minus the need to put the heavy machinery on top of the straddle unit. All of it can be disassembled to parts and moved and put together on stadium-style seating by a team of 4-10 in a relatively short amount of time. They make models with wheels that can be rolled through the aisles to reach all the way across an auditorium.


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