# Can't Screw Into The Stage



## JJO (Feb 14, 2011)

Hi all,

I have been building sets for years, but I've always been able to screw into the stages, and for once in my life, I cannot screw into the stage. This has thrown me off my game, and now all of a sudden I am all concerned about safety and things toppling. Please tell me I am just paranoid. The very rough set design (thanks ms paint!) is below. 



I am doing a two-story Arsenic and Old Lace set. Do I just do weighted triangular braces for the flats? What about the platforms? If they're braced well enough and cut nicely, there should be no wobble, right? I've got a larger-sized Teddy that will be running up and down stairs. I am trying to make myself assume that the set's weight will keep it from wobbling, but still the worry sneaks in. 

Thoughts?


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## derekleffew (Feb 14, 2011)

Stage jacks and sandbags. Think about it: how strong really is that #8 screw into 3/4" T&G flooring? You could also use double-thickness plates of 3/4" ~24"x24" plywood, loaded with stage weight, and screw into that.


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## gafftaper (Feb 14, 2011)

Okay you are just being paranoid, but that doesn't mean the set won't fall over and kill everyone.

Yes, use jacks with lots of counterweight on the back. I've used concrete deck blocks with the slot cut in them for portable shows in the past. Imagine the counterweight possibilities of the picture below flipped upside down. 

They are dirt cheap and weigh a about 40-50 lbs. Just build the bottom horizontal section of the brace out of 2x4 and trim it to perfectly fit the block slot. Flip the block upside down and place it on the brace.

Think of your stairs as the anchor of your set and build off of it. If you are worried about things sliding a round a little rubber underneath provides padding and a non-skid surface. Go to the local tire store and see if they have any old inner-tubes in their garbage can you can cut up for this purpose. Remember, the stairs are the anchor to your set. Everything get's screwed together back to the stairs to become one solid piece. If you have issues with sway and wobbles in the walls look for ways to brace above with aircraft cable. 

P.S. Your use of Paint is admirable but get to know Google Sketchup. It's extremely powerful, Easy to learn, and best of all free! Give yourself an afternoon to sit down with the training modules and you'll be an expert in no time.


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## DaveySimps (Feb 14, 2011)

Not sure where you are located. I am about an hour north of Detroit. I have literally tons of counter weight bricks that I don't need. I you need them to help anchor and are willing to come and get them, you can have them. PM me if you are interested.

~Dave


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## derekleffew (Feb 14, 2011)

Note that the notches for arbor tie rods allow the bricks to fit perfectly around the 1x stock of the stage jack.



I've also seen shop-made stage jacks welded out of 1" sq. tube with pipes placed the same distance as arbor rods to accept stage weights. Clever idea.


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## FatherMurphy (Feb 14, 2011)

You can pull a page out of theater history, and add some jogs to the walls. The corners act as booked flats, and the two sides of each corner helps stabilize the others.

You can also build a lower shelf under the stairway landing, and load that with counterweight, making the stair unit less likely to walk.


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## thatactorguy (Feb 15, 2011)

Your design is quite similar to the set I designed/built a few years ago.



Use the floor plating and weighting that others have suggested, but also make sure that the platforms are very well cross braced and tied into each other. If you use wall jacks, I would build them out of two by instead of the more standard one by. If you can build the platforms so half of it is upstage behind the set (in other words, the long part runs US-DS), it will serve as an escape, but you can also use them for additional counterweight...


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## derekleffew (Feb 15, 2011)

Is it just me, or do both of you have the set "backwards"? I thought the window box went stage right, but maybe that's just the iconic movie.


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## thatactorguy (Feb 15, 2011)

derekleffew said:


> Is it just me, or do both of you have the set "backwards"? I thought the window box went stage right, but maybe that's just the iconic movie.


 
I've never seen the movie. I just based my design on what was in the back of the script


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## JJO (Feb 15, 2011)

thatactorguy said:


> Your design is quite similar to the set I designed/built a few years ago.
> 
> 
> 
> Use the floor plating and weighting that others have suggested, but also make sure that the platforms are very well cross braced and tied into each other. If you use wall jacks, I would build them out of two by instead of the more standard one by. If you can build the platforms so half of it is upstage behind the set (in other words, the long part runs US-DS), it will serve as an escape, but you can also use them for additional counterweight...


 
Wow, you are not kidding. I didn't even show you my paint design for this puppy, which is very similar. (again, roughtly done on MS Paint, but know that I have downloaded and am learning Google Sketchup as we speak). It's a dustier mauve than what is below, but I call it "Pink Nightmare"...



I am also thinking 2x instead of 1x, as my Teddy is pretty heavy. I could notch the 2x, though, to fit the pig weights on there nicely. If not, laying them flat is just as effective, right? 

As for the stairs, they're all supported by platforms that will be tied and braced like crazy. 

One last question, how can I ensure the top flats, which will be screwed into the backside of the platforms, will not wobble? How can I brace those effectively?


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## JJO (Feb 15, 2011)

DaveySimps said:


> Not sure where you are located. I am about an hour north of Detroit. I have literally tons of counter weight bricks that I don't need. I you need them to help anchor and are willing to come and get them, you can have them. PM me if you are interested.
> 
> ~Dave


 
Thank you, I may do that. I've got to take stock of what we have. Last time I was in the theater, we had plenty, but things have degenerated since then. I'll let you know!


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## sk8rsdad (Feb 15, 2011)

Run a 1x4 on edge in back of the flats at the top to lock them together, or add a cove molding detail to cut down on wobble along the horizontal plane. Box brace to the escape stairs and use additional flats behind the set to stiffen in the vertical plane.


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## kicknargel (Feb 15, 2011)

One more little trick on platforms: once you have them in place, if there's a leg or two that doesn't hit the ground (because of abnormalities in the floor and never from the set carpentry, right? Yeah, that's it.) spread wood glue on two cedar shims (wedge-shaped), and push them in point side first from opposite directions until they snug up--you're creating a shim at the perfect thickness. Snap off the excess.


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## stormtroopers4 (Feb 17, 2011)

Create your own floor you can screw into


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## mstaylor (Feb 20, 2011)

Almost every theatre I have worked in doesn't allow screwing into the floor. I would build the platforms as units, legged and cross braced. Then build your steps, leg and cross brace them, then attach it to the platforms. Then I would build the wall tall enough to go floor to the second floor and attach them to the platforms and steps. This will cause some bracing as others have described. Te upcenter section will have an escape platform and steps to carry the center. The SL section that has the hall and window, brace as described, the only exception is the hall area. I would top brace the onstage wall to the masking wall so the rear wall carries both walls. You can add bottom flat bar (aka sill iron), like door flats have, to stiffen the bottom. These can be out of sight in the hall. This off the top of my head so it may require some refinement but that's where I would start.


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## Sheila Moore (Apr 3, 2019)

Do many folks screw their sets directly to the stage? I'm not sure why we couldn't do that. We never have, but I honestly didn't know that was an option. I have a set I'm getting ready to put together, and it would be a lifesaver if that were an option. Can anyone share their experiences? Thanks!


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## Van (Apr 3, 2019)

Sheila Moore said:


> Do many folks screw their sets directly to the stage? I'm not sure why we couldn't do that. We never have, but I honestly didn't know that was an option. I have a set I'm getting ready to put together, and it would be a lifesaver if that were an option. Can anyone share their experiences? Thanks!


It's funny; 'in the old days' screwing into the floor was the way you secured sets. Whether is was putting a stage jack in place with a stage screw or putting drywall screws through the bottom rail of a Studio flat. Now days with the price of refinishing/replacing a floor be so exorbitantly high schools and other venues frown upon it. Imagine, "Improved Stage Screws" were designed to be less damaging to floors. they required you to drill a 3/8" hole in floor then screw-in a brass insert into which the screw was screwed. When a show was done you unscrewed the insert then hammered a 3/8" oak dowel into the hole and sanded it flat. Now days a school administrator would have an apoplectic fit if you did that on the pristine stage floor. Stage floors were originally meant to be utilitarian. Labor costs and the "turn and burn" necessity of modern production facilities has made it too expensive to refinish <sand and repaint/seal> between gigs. In my opinion if you can't screw into it then you need to apply a layer of 3/4 ply or MDF that you CAN screw into.

Now, screwing into the floor is by no means the be all/end all for securing a set, Obviously you need to take measures to properly secure large items, but yeah, screwing studio flats into place should be a given.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Apr 3, 2019)

First, I make it clear in my work the stage floor will be drilied, screwed, painted, and damaged at times; and needs to be kind to young sculoskeletal systems. A recital or concert stage us different.

Second

Van said:


> It's funny; 'in the old days' screwing into the floor was the way you secured sets. Whether is was putting a stage jack in place with a stage screw or putting drywall screws through the bottom rail of a Studio flat.


There were no drywall screws in the old days. That is a new fangled invention.


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## JonCarter (Apr 3, 2019)

I agree with @BillConnerFASTC. A stage floor is a factory floor--things get built on it/fastened to it/screwed into it/painted on it etc., as necessary. If a show's design required a 'clean' floor use a ground cloth for your set or add Masonite or other flooring material inside your set.


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## Van (Apr 4, 2019)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> First, I make it clear in my work the stage floor will be drilied, screwed, painted, and damaged at times; and needs to be kind to young sculoskeletal systems. A recital or concert stage us different.
> 
> Second
> 
> There were no drywall screws in the old days. That is a new fangled invention.


Bill,
I hate to break it to you but Folks have been using Drywall crews to build scenery since the 90's. to MOST of the kids here that is not only 'the old days' it's Ancient History. 


Also, Remember when Stage floors used to be Pine? and only the Apron or the apron and the first 6' of the stage was Oak or other nice wood? 

There was a reason for that!


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## kicknargel (Apr 4, 2019)

Yup, it all depends. Some people (especially if I'm involved in speccing) still build stages with plywood and a sacrificial masonite layer, so you can have your way with them. Plenty are making stages out of modular platforming so they can build in traps and whatever, or at least putting a sacrificial 3/4" layer on top to build dog tracks into. But yes, more and more stages are multi-purpose, and don't want their nice maple finish messed up.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Apr 4, 2019)

Van said:


> Bill,
> I hate to break it to you but Folks have been using Drywall crews to build scenery since the 90's. to MOST of the kids here that is not only 'the old days' it's Ancient History.
> 
> 
> ...



The 90s are not ancient history. I "discovered" drywall screws in 1978 in my first job out if grad school, along with powder actuated fasteners. Just not ancient. I like this internet definition for ancient: belonging to the very distant past and no longer in existence. It goes on to mention Egyptian pyramids as being ancient, and nothing since - oh say - 1952 - at least.


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## techieman33 (Apr 5, 2019)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> The 90s are not ancient history. I "discovered" drywall screws in 1978 in my first job out if grad school, along with powder actuated fasteners. Just not ancient. I like this internet definition for ancient: belonging to the very distant past and no longer in existence. It goes on to mention Egyptian pyramids as being ancient, and nothing since - oh say - 1952 - at least.



That's just one of those things that changes with age. You were an adult, I was a kid in school, and the kids in school now weren't even born yet. We're all going to have a very different perspective of the 90s. And I think from here on out anything before the internet took hold of our day to day lives will be ancient history to any future generations. It's probably not so different from your generation thinking about times before electricity was in every home.


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## gafftapegreenia (Apr 5, 2019)

@Van, I’ve been using drywall screws to build sets since my first stage crew experience in 2003. That’s *only* 16 years ago. Based on old scenery I've encountered they definitely became the mainstream fastener in the 90s.

Also, the stage screw insert requires closer to a 9/16” hole, certainly much larger than 3/8. My last job had a Silver & Deming twist bit in the specific fractional size that of course I’m forgetting. (17/32” maybe?)


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## derekleffew (Apr 5, 2019)

http://www.productionadvantageonline.com/Products/H2255.aspx




Vise-type thread for easy insertion and removal
Fits 9/16" hole
Zinc-plated steel


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## gafftapegreenia (Apr 5, 2019)

derekleffew said:


> http://www.productionadvantageonline.com/Products/H2255.aspx
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Personally I think a 9/16” hole is a tad loose fit, however, per your suggestion, I do know that a 9/16” paddle bit is the PERFECT tool to drive the insert. I’ve used that trick several times, to the amazement of all on lookers.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Apr 5, 2019)

I used knife thread inserts - https://www.globalindustrial.com/p/...ey=0&trackCatKey=0&webCatKey=0&presentType=99 - for 5/16-8 machine screws. Requires 1/2" hole - and used the paddle bit as driver like gafftapegrenia. My favorite was ground cloths with grommets and flat head machine screws - perfect fit. Seems like a lot lower price too.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Apr 5, 2019)

Better link to part - I hope:
https://www.ezlok.com/ezknife-insert-400-5
And here they at Global 10 for less than $5 but can't link that page....


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## kjones9999 (Apr 6, 2019)

I run into this often. I usually puts legs on 4x8s and attach the walls to the front.


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## manuallyfocused (Apr 8, 2019)

Sheila Moore said:


> Do many folks screw their sets directly to the stage? I'm not sure why we couldn't do that. We never have, but I honestly didn't know that was an option. I have a set I'm getting ready to put together, and it would be a lifesaver if that were an option. Can anyone share their experiences? Thanks!



I'd say 80% of theaters that I've been in expect sets to be attached to the floor. From a converted grist mill in Western Pennsylvania to a semi-outdoor pavilion in Eureka Springs, Arkansas to the Delacorte in Central Park, everything gets screwed down unless it needs to roll/fly.

Some exceptions- 
1. CSV Cultural Center in New York City, where we didn't realize we weren't allowed to screw into the floor and had to refill all the holes we made after strike. 
2. Main State Music Theatre- They lay down a floating floor of Masonite and OSB over the existing stage floor before the summer season, and screw into that
3. The 14th Street Y in NYC- I designed a set similar to the OPs for "The Wedding Play," and we braced and weighted the heck out of everything to keep it from going anywhere. (I may or may not have snuck a couple of finish nails into the stage to hold a doorstop in place, however)
4. Some tiny living room theater in the West Village. Without being able to screw into the floor, we braced the walls by tying them off to whatever we could and wedging a board in between the set walls and the space walls to keep anything from going anywhere. Ended up with a slammable door on a small box set.
5. My current auditorium- has an ugly wood stage floor that I'm not allowed to screw into, so I've done an MDF/OSB floating floor that I *can* screw into, and I clamp around any architectural features I can access.


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## bobgaggle (Apr 9, 2019)

In my experience, theaters will let you screw into the floor. Big pacs generally frown upon this. We have built for a lot of venues in philly and the small proper stand alone theaters will let you do it. The kimmel center and other behemoth venues won't


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