# AHHH Cable Wrapping!



## CURLS (Sep 25, 2006)

Ok! So here's a discussion that I ran across today that I hope hasn't already been discussed, and if it has well then buy me a high dollar hooker to aid in my sta bil lity. 
Anyhow, while at work today I am checking in a snake(thank god it was only a W4, and not a full loomed one) when I decide to open the box to insure that all the connections were'nt well effed up. (i.e. little elves putting glue in the xlr's on the head and using skissors to cut xlrs off of little piggy tails... ok end retartedness) OK, so the point is I open up the snake and I stand there in disgust to see this poor little guy wrapped 7 different ways to sunday. Gosh it started out being just wadded at the top, then half ass over over, then to figure eight, oh and then at the bottom small xlr coils. That was some fun redoing that, but good thing there wasn't too much else to do today. 

Ok, so on to the real point at hand! I find a snake that was poorly wrapped and I happen to know that it was wrapped by high schoolers. Now I know what some of you are saying, "Wait a minute I'm a high schooler!" So, here's the deal nothing (thinking for seconds throughout the day) nothing I repeat makes me more mad then going to a cable kit and pulling out spagetti. With that said I know more than a few times I have seen professional stagehands that can't coil a cable correctly to save there life, and I'm ok with that there's other things that they can do far better than me. I will also admit that when I was in high school NO, I could't wrap a cable to save me from milkin a gaot. So when I helped with loadins for our city's local shed and it came time for a a road guy to hand me a coil to wrap. I told him "My cable wrapping was'nt very good at all." He gave me the same happy face that I would give anyone today that says "Thank you for telling me that!!!"
With all that said I must say that if you want to work in this industry coil wrapping is properly in the top 5 of the most fundamental things that you need to learn how to do in this industry. There's two basic wraps that yield different results. Over over is twisting the cable the same way in a loop, so that no matter which way you undo it it should'nt get too tangled. Over under which is pretty much industry standard is somewhat hard for me to explain. It would be even better for someone to show and correct you on how to do. You can keep cables together in a loop by using tie line or even looping it through its inside loop and then through itself once again hard to explain in words. 

OHHH, and by the way I have neglected trying to explain how to properly wrap a cable for a couple of reasons. 
1. Being the before mentioned it's hard to explain in word's and you'll get einstein struck when you see it in person.
2. If you practice it a dozen times the wrong way from a source that you read that does you no good. 3 wrong turns dont make a right but if you have someone navigate you the right way one right does!
3. As I previously started another thread that says "SEEK OTHER SOURCES" that is what I am challenging go about finding other ways to achieve knowledge!

Better yet the point to some of this venting is:
IF you can't coil a cable correctly learn.
IF you wrap any cable around your elbow a billion times it hurts it, and you would get yelled at by and professional person by doing so. 



The leaves go falling one by one, hoorah hoorah. The leaves go falling two by two hoorah hoorah. Curly goes down to the farm shells corn and finds hot chics this weekend hoorah hoorah!! AHHHHHH SNAP ALL OF THAT MEANS COLD WEATHER


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## ship (Sep 26, 2006)

One will note a little less descriptive explitives used below as something to work on as not necessary and often more fun to write around what's the easy to find words for but not really saying much.

More important than wrapping the cable properly after the first initial times is listening to how the cable wants to be wrapped.

After a cable has been mis-coiled a few times, over/under top/under or what ever is forced upon the cable will also do just as much damage as doing it "properly" after it's no longer wanting to coil up "properly."

Than in looms there is the curious and the more curious...
Had a recent tour come back that had a 8/5 type SO, 16 pair digital grade XLR, and 20 pair also digital grade XLR in one front of house snake. This was 400' long. Fairly small by this year's standards world tour having only 26 universes of DMX but six months into the tour it was very curious that the 20 pair cable even when coiled correctly had as opposed to the other two cables loomed into it developed a very drastic pigtail to it. We are talking about a curl to it of about 3" dia towards it's ends. Just a spring really in look to this one of three cables within the loom. The other two were just fine.

Theory was that both the SO and 16 pair cable normally used had it's jacket and twist to it in the same way and applied as a coating or with core wires pulled thru. The other cable had it's jacket as per something molded around the conductors and possibly with a different twisting ratio to it. As said at the time, that's why sound companies don't loom their snakes. Two different types cables in a properly loomed snake, both wishing for a different way of coiling them up in listening to the cable as to how it wants to be coiled up. 

Luckily the bad cable was under warranty and has gone back to the factory so as to be both replaced and study what happened to it as opposed to the other two in the loom that are just fine. This happens by way of cable construction that not all cables wish to follow a set pattern for coiling them up. Some will develop a certain memory as to how to coil them up and a dogmatic means of coiling them up will be as bad as under arming them in the same direction no matter the well meaning intention.

Listen to the cable and how it wants to be wrapped. Even a cable that when taken off the spool from above the top of the spool as opposed to the under side of it will in un-coiling it develop a memory and twist it in a bad way that will perminantly form a memory on that cable in correcting for how it wants to coil up. This detail of how innitially a cable was taken off a spool of wire will in fact form a very big impression on the cable that doing it properly wont' fix and even will hurt.

Best to have the goal of over under, but while doing so listening to how the cable wants to coil and if it wants three over and one under per segment, than lots of correcting inverse wrapps towards the end, that's how it should be coiled no matter what type of cable it is. Beyond the curious one cable that did not want to coil as with the other two, as with all cable that eventually will fail by way of coiling badly, there is more to it than just doing every cable the same. Goal yes, reality never.


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## soundman (Sep 26, 2006)

I have seen 100' remote extensions where the last 6 or 8' of the male end look like a curly Q telphone cord. After doing some overhire work for the company I found out why, when a show comes back the put the female end on a wheel and a crank with one hand while the other hand has a rag full of simple green to clean and guide the cable. After a few years of this all the twists inside of the jacket are forced to the male end causeing it to curl. 

Would it be better to alternate on a weekly bases to start with the male or female end to solve this problem? It might help but then you burry the male end in the center when you would prefer it to be on the outside.


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## jonhirsh (Sep 27, 2006)

Cable is one of my biggest pet peves, I did a show recently where i requested 100 x 20' -20amp twist
50 x 20' - 15amp twist
50 x 8' - DMX 5 pin

I was sent 

100 x 100' -20amp twist
50 x 100' - 15amp twist
50 x 100' - DMX 5 pin

Do some quick math and you can see how much extra cable that accounted for. Needless to say the load out was not fun. 

But yes over undering the cables helped to coil faster and neater. 

As well when wraping large cables such as Soca, Joy, Cams or longer twist. It can speed it up if you wrap it on the floor or on a road case. It keeps it neater but just because your wraping on the floor or a case does not mean you should not over under. You still must Over under no matter how you wrap your cable.


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## soundman (Sep 27, 2006)

jonhirsh said:


> Cable is one of my biggest pet peves, I did a show recently where i requested 100 x 20' -20amp twist
> 50 x 20' - 15amp twist
> 50 x 8' - DMX 5 pin
> I was sent
> ...




Not just the extra time to coil cable but also the extra weight by having and 400' of cable sitting up on the truss that might not have been accounted for.


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## jonhirsh (Sep 28, 2006)

well i did think about that so most of the excess went by my distro that was a pile of spegetti. 

JH


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## fosstech (Sep 28, 2006)

I always counter coil. It's easy enough so when you get the hang of it it's just as fast as the wrong way.

I had to counter coil a 150-foot 24x4 snake on our clean up day/BBQ on Labor Day. That was fun, as it had been sitting all piled up on the floor all summer.


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## jonhirsh (Sep 29, 2006)

Um counter coiling? Same as over undering? If not please explain. 

There is realy only one way to coil cable properly, and that is over undering. weither or not you have another name for it. 

JH


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## fosstech (Sep 30, 2006)

Yeah I believe so...that's just what we all call it here 

Instead of just going around and around and around with the cable putting twists into it, you do one normal coil and then twist it the other way so that the wire comes out behind the coil instead of in front of it. It's really hard to describe without a visual. Anyway, the backwards coil "counters" the twist made in the first normal coil. Just keep alternating and it will all unravel without one twist.


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## ship (Oct 1, 2006)

soundman said:


> Would it be better to alternate on a weekly bases to start with the male or female end to solve this problem? It might help but then you burry the male end in the center when you would prefer it to be on the outside.



I would consult the "Wire Rope User's Manual" to see what it recommends for doing so on wire rope. Same thing different wire. Other books also on wire rope might have good advice on spooling cable.

Beyond this, my initial thought would be to go ahead and use the same male or femal end, just spool it up from opposing directions. Again not sure on this but seemingly logical.


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## audioslavematt (Oct 1, 2006)

http://stagecraft.theprices.net/gallery/cablewrap/cablewrap-qt.html has good demonstration videos.


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## Jimbo (Oct 5, 2006)

This website has a flash demo on how to coil cable
http://www.shurenotes.com/issue11/article.asp?flash=true


This Site has a video on how to coil cable
http://stagecraft.theprices.net/gallery/cablewrap/cablewrap-qt.html


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## saxman0317 (Oct 13, 2006)

ship said:


> I would consult the "Wire Rope User's Manual" to see what it recommends for doing so on wire rope. Same thing different wire. Other books also on wire rope might have good advice on spooling cable.
> Beyond this, my initial thought would be to go ahead and use the same male or femal end, just spool it up from opposing directions. Again not sure on this but seemingly logical.



I find that when ive colied cables right, it doesnt really matter which end you throw first, either way it still uncoils the same. Just if you throw the outside connection, throw it like a bowling ball, and if its the inside, throw like a horseshoe.

p.s...
the other pre quoted one didnt show up...said something about the way its coiled making a difference in throwing to. But as the the only one above, i like to do different size coils every time to, just slight differences, but enough so that its never exactally the same places for bends or amount degrees in the curves. (try to sound smart here on a simple matter)


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## Mayhem (Oct 18, 2006)

Not sure that there is a right or wrong way to coil cables when comparing the counter-coiling and coiling methods. Wrong ways to coil cable include tight coils around your hand and elbow, or coils that are too tight for the cable. Anyone remember how to figure out the minimum radius?

One reason for this is that a long run of heavy cable is not fun on your back. Thus, it is easy to lay the cable on the ground and coil it, rather than hold it out at arms length and coil it that way. You may laugh at this but just wait to OSH start putting restriction into place for such things! 

Take home message – there is more than one way to skin a cat.


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## midgetgreen11 (Jan 25, 2008)

Cables being coiled incorrectly is one of my biggest pet peeves, and we have extremely poor technical equipment... meaning we don't have a sound board, we have to hire out a sound technician, so most of our tech crews DON'T know how to, and claim they do, so all our cables are f***ed up and bent and completely damaged.


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## gafftapegreenia (Jan 25, 2008)

I even properly coil orange extension cords and other crude like that. And guess what, it makes them better to use. Cable coils itself, I'll say it till I die.


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## Charc (Jan 25, 2008)

gafftapegreenia said:


> I even properly coil orange extension cords and other crude like that. And guess what, it makes them better to use. Cable coils itself, I'll say it till I die.



Agreed, I coil everything, correctly. Well correctly I hope. My technique is probably a little sloppy, but I let the cable tell me what to do, and it ends up in a coil, so yea.


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## derekleffew (Jan 26, 2008)

gafftapegreenia said:


> ...Cable coils itself, I'll say it till I die.


You'll say that until you ever have to deal with Morpheus multi. It's the only cable I've ever gotten mad at. I think it had some personal issues, but the Morpheus person told me "Oh, it's always like that, just get it in the box as best you can." Easier to coil a python!


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## gafftapegreenia (Jan 26, 2008)

Figures. They would do that to prove me wrong. This is theatre after all.


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## Chris15 (Jan 26, 2008)

derekleffew said:


> You'll say that until you ever have to deal with Morpheus multi. It's the only cable I've ever gotten mad at. I think it had some personal issues, but the Morpheus person told me "Oh, it's always like that, just get it in the box as best you can." Easier to coil a python!



OK... I'll claim ignorance here, can someone direct me towards more information on this "Morpheus Multi"? Or don't I want to know


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## soundman (Jan 26, 2008)

I think its also called trunk cable, it was for the early movign lights. Picture a big loom of power and data cable.


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## len (Jan 27, 2008)

Maybe he's just referring to multi-pin, or what some call Socaplex. 19 wires together, yielding 6 electrical circuits. Not fun to coil. Typically weighs about 1/2 pound per foot or more. Imagine trying to coil a garden hose full of water that is frozen nearly solid. That's what you're up against.


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## David Ashton (Jan 27, 2008)

My specialty is an over and under wrap, then pulling out of the wrong end and achieving 20 half hitches in the cable.
When all the volunteers are helping to pack out rolling cables over their arms, my advice is, don't worry about the cable looking pretty but do not under any circumstances stress the cables.


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## gafftaper (Feb 7, 2008)

When it comes to coiling cable. I'm good and I'm fast. Recently my wife was watching as I was coiling a 50' TRS speaker line. Perfectly even loops, the connectors ended up right next to each other, and I wasn't even looking. She was amazed and commented about how she couldn't believe that I could do that without looking. Feeling pretty good and showing off for my lady I said watch this, held one connector with my fingers and through the rest of the coil across the floor (carpeted mind you)... It uncoiled into a perfect straight line without a single kink. 

(Go Quagmire) "OH YEAH... All Right!"

I'm such a nerd.


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## gafftapegreenia (Feb 7, 2008)

gafftaper said:


> I'm such a nerd.




HEY! That's MY line, but I'll let you use it.


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## Chris15 (Feb 9, 2008)

gafftapegreenia said:


> HEY! That's MY line, but I'll let you use it.



If it were YOUR line, it would be in you signature block. It is not. So it is fair game .

And besides, you HAVE remembered who you are talking to now haven't you? We're all nerds!


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## gafftapegreenia (Feb 9, 2008)

But it is something I say a lot IRL, like "Lighting is Sexy", "I don't know, make it work" and, "It IS theatre, after all".


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## ship (Feb 11, 2008)

On the other hand, the best and fastest way to make up a bunch of say 18" tie line for hanging drops with is palm of the hand and under the arm. Grab the top after coiled and cut them all.

Now who knows how to hang and pull from that wad of tie line on a pipe, ring or barso you can easily pull out one strand of it without tangling the rest of them? Very important storage technique for storing tie line neatly and straight.

On the topic, I do over/under but still listen to the cable in over riding that goal. It wants two overs and not an under, that is what you give it - the larger or more stiff the cable the more this becomes necessary.

photo is the cable I mentioned origionally in the reply. The 20 pair snake coiled, the 16 pair snake didn't, nor did the 8/5 SOW. All loomed together in one 400' snake.

On the other hand, the wire rope knot was caused by improper coiling and a not so observant rigger. Could have cost someone's life.

New question, what causes this cable popping out of the cable?


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## soundman (Feb 11, 2008)

I have never seen a cable pop through a jacket but was this caused by using a cable wrapping machine? The twisted cables inside the outer jacket got straightened out from being coiled time after time and the tension was too much and it poped through. 
The surrounding area doesn't have the tale tail 'bungy' look but I figured it was worth a shot.


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## CynicWhisper (Feb 16, 2008)

Quick question though. Most everyone I've worked for likes the under over. However, the audio production company just won't allow it. HIs reasoning is that with over under, you get the million little knots in the cable if one end even slips the wrong way which cancels out any possible benefits of it. Are we just totally untalented? What's up with this? Normally my coils don't give me any trouble, but just one 200 foot cable with 50 little knots is enough to make me want to hang myself with it.


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## derekleffew (Feb 16, 2008)

gafftapegreenia said:


> ..."I don't know, make it work" and, "It IS theatre, after all".


My best friend used to have a scenic company whose slogan/tagline was Specializing in "Make-It-Work" Theatre. (He has designed and built many complete sets, most recently _Cabaret_, for under $500. The "professional" company didn't budget to rent any MLs, so I wouldn't get involved). Sort of kills two birds with one stone, no? Currently, he's "_...two hours of pushin' broom, buys an eight by twelve four-bit room_" for CDS, and recently bought a classic Jaguar!


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## ruinexplorer (Sep 2, 2013)

The rest of the world gets to catch on how we wrap cables: That's Not How You Use That: Coiling a Cable | Gadget Lab | Wired.com


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## techieman33 (Sep 2, 2013)

ruinexplorer said:


> The rest of the world gets to catch on how we wrap cables: That's Not How You Use That: Coiling a Cable | Gadget Lab | Wired.com



Hopefully they'll actually use it after reading about it. It took me a few tries to convince my dad and brother to over/under cables, even after I showed them how much nicer they were to work with.


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## ruinexplorer (Sep 2, 2013)

My wife still rolls her eyes at me saying "That's not how my father did it."


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## gafftapegreenia (Sep 2, 2013)

I over under everything. Makes those Apple cords last forever.


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## JohnD (Sep 3, 2013)

ruinexplorer said:


> My wife still rolls her eyes at me saying "That's not how my father did it."



A friend of mine had this wisdom in the forward to his book, (shameless plug "Killer Camera Rigs" by Dan Selakovich).
A man was home when his wife was getting a roast ready to put in the oven, he noticed that she trimmed the ends off the roast before putting it in the pan. He asked her why she was doing that. Her reply, that's how my mother did it. He called the mother in law and asked her. Same reply. So he called the grandmother. She replied, We couldn't afford a new roasting pan and I had to trim the ends to get it to fit.


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## mstaylor (Sep 12, 2013)

I over under many things, straight wrap others. There are more than one way to do anything, it drives me nuts when I hear people say there is is only one way to do whatever it is you are doing. I work with a production company where the lead sound guy has a fit if you over under anything, the lead lighting tech insists on it. That's in the same company.


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## bishopthomas (Nov 6, 2013)

gafftapegreenia said:


> I over under everything. Makes those Apple cords last forever.



Yeah, me too. Including the garden hose.


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