# Which lighting board to get for medium theater



## Luna1968 (May 3, 2016)

Hi folks!
I have not been on this site in years. This is because I have not had a job as a drama instructor from then until now (teaching English instead,) but here I am, with a theater and a budget. I now need to upgrade the lighting system in our theater. Currently, our theater is very pretty on the surface. It has a nice thrust stage with good seating, a light booth, and a spotlight. The issue is that the designers remodeled it for aesthetics. So, while pretty, it's not very functional. Currently, the lights are recessed lights in the ceiling. There is no light board at all. Originally, there were some can lights extending down, but they are now unused. They would have lit up the stage previously, but with the addition of the thrust stage, they are in the wrong location. 
I have to present a budget to the board office this week for new lighting. My first item is a light board. They seem to run from $400 upwards of $2000. WOW! I am seriously overwhelmed. Any advice on how to go about choosing this essential equipment?


----------



## SteveB (May 3, 2016)

Actually lighting consoles can run as high as $40,000 or so. $2,000 is on the very low end of the range.


----------



## Stevens R. Miller (May 3, 2016)

I'm no expert, but I'm in kind of the same boat. My son's middle school has an old board that's going to need replacement soon. Reading up on consoles is mind-numbing. Part of the confusion, for me, seems to arise from the fact that there are boards for a variety of applications. What I need (and, maybe, what you need) is a board appropriate to an educational, theatrical environment. That's not the same as, say, a board that a professional would use to support a rock concert. So, just knowing what a board is good for can be a challenge, as some high-priced stuff may not be a good fit for folks like us, while low-end stuff might meet our needs.

I'll be interested in what people recommend.

How many dimmers do you have? (We have 48.)

Are they DMX 512? (Ours are.) If not, what?

How many electric bars do you have? (We have two.)

What's your student level? (I'm in a middle school.)

Here's a big one, at least in my environment: Can you insure that someone on staff will have the duty to know how the board operates and, if you can insure that, how much time can they give to this responsibility?

I say that last is a big one because _no one_ at my son's middle school has the duty to know how their board operates. It was (at the time of purchase), about $3,500, and has a lot of nifty abilities, nearly none of which tend to get used, because: no one knows how it works; the time available in the theater for a volunteer to learn how it works is very limited; it's fairly complicated, especially for those (like me) with very little theater experience; and the manual is written in what appears to be some sort of cryptographic steganography, where long passages of apparently plain language actually conceal the information that would otherwise permit one to know how this inscrutable thing works. As a result, a number of shows have been done with the students simply memorizing the light cues, and ramming the dimmer controls to their appropriate levels as fast as they can. This is somewhat maddening, because the kids _are_ able to learn the programming of cues, fades, and effects, but only if an adult who already knows this stuff can teach it to them. With no one on staff who can do this, a great device is going largely to waste (and deteriorating from rough handling). If your situation is similar, you may want to look for the simplest board you can, just to avoid the result my son's school seems to have experienced.

That's my US$0.02, and worth, at most, both pennies. Will be eager to see what others have to offer you.


----------



## BillConnerFASTC (May 3, 2016)

I think before console, you need to look at lighting positions for mounting the fixtures, power and date infrastructure, then fixtures, and lastly console. Comparatively, the console may be inexpensive item compared to a a couple of LED fixtures or quartz fixtures with dimmer and more wiring. Its hard to generalize and not miss unique problems and opportunities of the space. Also, the console is the piece that will change most often - whether that is between when you begin researching it and when you buy it; or between when you buy the first an when you buy the replacement.


----------



## Luna1968 (May 3, 2016)

Stevens R. Miller said:


> I'm no expert, but I'm in kind of the same boat. My son's middle school has an old board that's going to need replacement soon. Reading up on consoles is mind-numbing. Part of the confusion, for me, seems to arise from the fact that there are boards for a variety of applications. What I need (and, maybe, what you need) is a board appropriate to an educational, theatrical environment. That's not the same as, say, a board that a professional would use to support a rock concert. So, just knowing what a board is good for can be a challenge, as some high-priced stuff may not be a good fit for folks like us, while low-end stuff might meet our needs.
> 
> I'll be interested in what people recommend.
> 
> ...



Thank you! It does sounds like we are in the same boat. I have no working lights currently, other than the recessed lights. I literally stand on the stage and manually flip seven lights switches (in between scenes, so I look like an idiot.)


----------



## Luna1968 (May 3, 2016)

BillConnerASTC said:


> I think before console, you need to look at lighting positions for mounting the fixtures, power and date infrastructure, then fixtures, and lastly console. Comparatively, the console may be inexpensive item compared to a a couple of LED fixtures or quartz fixtures with dimmer and more wiring. Its hard to generalize and not miss unique problems and opportunities of the space. Also, the console is the piece that will change most often - whether that is between when you begin researching it and when you buy it; or between when you buy the first an when you buy the replacement.



Thank you! Is there any other option other than bolting a pipe to the ceiling OR using trees? I have a feeling the administration will not appreciate anything that is not "pretty" with all the renovations (this is a rather old theater - built in the 1940s.) With the lights themselves, I am doing some research as well. I imagine about 10 would fit comfortably. I think floodlights would work best?


----------



## microstar (May 3, 2016)

I think you will get appropriate answers to your questions if you would post some pictures of the space and a rough drawing giving dimensions, including heights.


----------



## Luna1968 (May 3, 2016)

I can do that.



I can get dimensions. I don't have them right now.


----------



## BillConnerFASTC (May 3, 2016)

Here's your answer.

http://www.leviton.com/OA_HTML/ProductDetail.jsp?partnumber=SKYHK&section=38659&minisite=10251

Not inexpensive but maybe 4 to 12 of these - data and power all in - might be the thing.

And

www.etcconnect.com/Products/Distribution/Retractable-Lighting-Position/Features.aspx


----------



## Luna1968 (May 3, 2016)

BillConnerASTC said:


> Here's your answer.
> 
> http://www.leviton.com/OA_HTML/ProductDetail.jsp?partnumber=SKYHK&section=38659&minisite=10251
> 
> ...


These look really cool! The price is probably prohibitive though.


----------



## Stevens R. Miller (May 3, 2016)

Those aisles looks about three seats wide and I see a 4x9x4 seating plan. Typical seat is about 22 inches from center to center, so (4 + 3 + 9 + 3 + 4) x 22" = 506" ~ 42' wide.

Fore-and-aft, typical seating is about 34", and I can see at least 12 rows. Let's guess you've got 20, total, implying 20 x 34" = 680" ~ 57' deep.

Just a guess, but I'm guessing your space is about 40' x 60', more or less, seating about 340 people. If i'm anywhere in the ballpark, we are more in the same boat than I thought. The middle school theater seats 400, and is about 50 x 60. Will continue to follow this thread with great interest.


----------



## JVTD (May 3, 2016)

ETC's new color source console is probably the best fit for you, I had a demo of it at USITT and its pretty user freindly. It is also less than $2000 if memory serves, it costs around $1700. It will work with conventional dimmers and LEDs so you've got the best of both worlds.


----------



## BillConnerFASTC (May 4, 2016)

Luna1968 said:


> These look really cool! The price is probably prohibitive though.


I think ETCs lists just under $800. But if you're hanging 4 $2500 LEDs from it, not as significant. It does include the plug box and data receptacle.


----------



## Stevens R. Miller (May 4, 2016)

JVTD said:


> ETC's new color source console is probably the best fit for you, I had a demo of it at USITT and its pretty user freindly.



Regarding that one: the spec sheet is a bit confusing to me. It says the CS20 has 20 faders and controls 40 channels. But it also says something about having ten pages. What's puzzling to me is that any DMX board would not have the ability to control all 512 channels by simply grouping them in sets as large as the physical number of faders. For the CS20, I'd expect you could assign any DMX channel you wanted to Fader #1, any channel you wanted to Fader #2, and so on, up to Fader #20, and call all of those assignments, say, "Page 1." Then, on, say, "Page 2," I'd expect you to be able to assign Fader #1 to any DMX channel you wanted (maybe the same one as in Page 1, maybe not), and again all the way up to Fader #20, and keep doing that so, in groups of 20, you could control all the DMX devices that you had. But that's not clearly how it seems to say it works.

Am I missing this in the spec sheet?


----------



## BillConnerFASTC (May 4, 2016)

Don't forget - in my simple minded view - that one "channel" mighty be a bunch of DMX addresses. So it does mean max 40 LED or movers individually controlled - even though they might each have many DMX addresses assigned to one channel. I suspect if you insisted you would not be controlling LED and movers, only dimmers, I'd not recommend this console. But who won't be using LED and movers? Frankly, I'd move up to the 40 or even 40 AV - too cool even if I don't know how I'd use the av features but do want the network connectivity. So 20 and 40 list at $1749 and $2699 respectively; the AV models list at $2999 and $3950.

Push one go button and get leds to flash, a profile with a pattern project lightening bolts, and the sound of thunder all together? Put company logos on the video projector and messages like turn off your cell phones and look around for nearest exits all as part of a single multi step house light cue? I'm envious of these new tools, considering I started with piano boards, border lights, and olivettis and thought a two seen preset with mag amps and lekos was heaven in college.


----------



## sk8rsdad (May 4, 2016)

ETC has a helpful video that might help make all the concepts clearer.


----------



## Luna1968 (May 4, 2016)

This is a rough copy of what I am putting together for a presentation to the Superintendent tomorrow afternoon. Does it look like I am on the right track? I am trying to take options from what everyone is saying, and then of course doing my own research (which is overwhelming!) I am going down to the theater today after school to take measurements and check out the old lights. I may be able to refurbish or save them, but I'm not sure what I have yet. They are from before the remodel (maybe 10-15 years ago?) and are hanging backstage with orange extension cords all over them.


----------



## Luna1968 (May 4, 2016)

Also, can I completely do without a console and control the lights from a laptop computer?


----------



## RickR (May 4, 2016)

Luna1968 said:


> Also, can I completely do without a console and control the lights from a laptop computer?



Mostly, Yes. Modern consoles are computers in specialized boxes with funny keyboards. Newcomers aren't afraid of laptops as they seem to be of consoles. I find them harder to use and less reliable. Can you smoothly mouse over 3 inches when every wiggle and pause is seen on stage? A physical fader is simple and effective! 

You'll need more than just software since a laptop doesn't have a DMX port. A DMX output device can just plug into a USB port, or you can go with a network based system and the DMX device closer to the lights. You might be happiest with a tablet solution. My current choice is http://www.visualproductions.nl/products/cuety.html, because the console is actually in the DMX device. The tablet is just a remote control for it. WiFi is not good for 'show critical' control.


----------



## dbaxter (May 4, 2016)

On the other side of the coin, in a theatrical setting where you're going cue to cue, you don't use the paradigm of 'sliders', but let the program perform the fade over a set amount of time. Much smoother and more repeatable than what you can do by hand.

Check the DMX King and Enttec sites for economical DMX interfaces. They also list compatible software, what we use at Blackfriars Theatre included.


----------



## soundlight (May 5, 2016)

In an educational situation I would not consider a laptop. You want a hardware console that has sliders for all the other various things the room will be used for. I would also not remotely consider American DJ, Chauvet DJ, Eliminator, or similar lighting controllers. They're all but disposable in an educational setting.

For a console I'd recommend no less than an ETC Smartfade 1248. If you get LEDs or if you want to be able to record a list of cues (the Smartfade advertises the ability to do a cuelist but it really is futile), you want to go with the ColorSource Console. Yes, it costs more than a Scene Setter. But it's not disposable, it will last for many years not some to many months. I've seen DJ level controllers go in mere months in a heavy use setting. They're not designed to handle regular use.

I'm going to say something that might not be what you want to hear but it really needs to be said. When I was in high school I did so so much to hobble along the theater, make the lighting system usable again, make the old stuff work, and buy cheap, DJ-level gear to stretch the budget. When I left, within a few years, they redid the lighting system, replaced the light board, and got a proper, motorized front of house position put in. They removed all of the asbestos tails form the existing lights, cleaned them, and purchased a dozen or two brand new ETC Source Fours. They also replaced the "CrapBox 5000X" dimming system (my name for it) with a brand new 96 channel ETC Sensor rack. It really should be done once & done right.

I'm not saying that you or your school has the budget for what I described above. What I am saying is that maybe putting together a true proposal for a long-lasting solution that is durable and fully installed is the way to go. This will require quotes from local vendors for the installation and labor based on your space.

Idea for the actual equipment list (this is just me spitballing a list, definitely have a pro vendor provide a full gear spec):
(1) ColorSource 40 Console
(1) ColorSource Transmitter
(12) Chauvet Ovation E910FC (front light, beam spread TBD based on throw)
(12) Elation Colour Chorus 12 (these things are killer as toplight, great output, nice colors, and they have a slot for spread lenses)
(2) professionally installed 10' sch. 40 pipe positions out front, one left and one right, each with its own 20A circuit, each to hold 6 of the E910FCs, each with a ColorSource relay to receive data wirelessly and also to power on and off the fixtures.
(3) professionally installed sch. 40 pipe over stage; downstage, midstage, and upstage; each with its own 20A circuit, each to hold (4) Colour Chorus 12, each with a ColorSource relay to receive data wirelessly and also to power on and off the fixtures. These will definitely be where you want to expand with more units later.

Such a system is not cheap but would probably still be usable 5 years down the road pretty much as installed.


----------



## lwinters630 (May 5, 2016)

Luna1968 said:


> This is a rough copy of what I am putting together for a presentation to the Superintendent tomorrow afternoon. Does it look like I am on the right track? I am trying to take options from what everyone is saying, and then of course doing my own research (which is overwhelming!) I am going down to the theater today after school to take measurements and check out the old lights. I may be able to refurbish or save them, but I'm not sure what I have yet. They are from before the remodel (maybe 10-15 years ago?) and are hanging backstage with orange extension cords all over them.


Looking over your proposal and all your posts I'm not sure it will be a permanent system and several issues may arise. LED fixtures need to have power removed either by turning off the breakers or a relay. If just plugged in a live wall outlet they still draw power that wil shorten the life of internal power drivers. XLR is not recommended for DMX control. DMX splitter and terminators may be needed. Lighting trees are for temporary settings and have safety concerns on sloped floors, cable runs, etc. Wear and tear on fixtures/lamps during set up, strike and storage. Permanent extention cords will not meet local codes.

Although cutting cost, I would want to put in a system that would be permanent and encompass all the theater needs while considering future tecology in lights and control. Devide it into phases if needed.

My suggestion would be to bring in a local theater lighting company that is an ETC vendor. They can evaluate your space and spec out a complete system integrating current equipment, and phase in options. They will think through stage plot and usage, seeing through a trained set of eyes thinges we miss.
Why ETC? They are number 1 in the world for support, service and equipment. One call and within minutes I have answers.
I hope you find these comments helpful and positive.


----------



## Kelite (May 5, 2016)

Good day Luna1968,

I appreciate your Word document proposal and obviously the time you've invested in making it. Assuming some/most/all of the people you present this document to at your school don't likely 'speak technical theatre', educating them with terms and product names is certainly an important part of your presentation.


_DMX__ Cables / __microphone_ _XLR__ cables_

I would be hesitant to group both 3 pin DMX and microphone cables in same class together, just because they are truly different cables. A mic cable _may_ work in a pinch, but I wouldn't bet my show on it. There have been a number of stories told here on the ControlBooth of mic cables being used instead of DMX, and they didn't end happily ever after...
Mic cables are generally cheaper than 3 pin DMX cables, and it could be tough explaining to bean counters why you spent more for DMX cabling than microphone cabling if they are the same product.

Just a heads up, that's all!


----------



## Luna1968 (May 13, 2016)

Hello all! Here is some new information. I have taken measurements of the stage and included them here. The seating: Center 2 rows of 6 seats in front and then 16 rows of 9 seats; On the sides 1 row of 3 seats and then 16 rows of 5 seats, with 2 rows of 4 seats in the back. 
I am also attaching some pictures of the old stage lights. They look scary! I think it's 2 fresnels and 6 Pars with a small spotlight of some sort in the middle. Also including a view from the stage. I have talked to my superintendent and he has given the green light to go ahead and get companies in to give estimates. I've talked to two companies out of Atlanta that specialize in stage lighting. I feel much more educated thanks to everyone on this board!


----------



## lwinters630 (May 13, 2016)

Luna1968 said:


> spotlight of some sort


Looks like a rain light used to light a mirror ball.

The white cords on the fixtures are asbestos.
There are no safety cables on the fixtures. I would also check the load rating of the pipe as it is mounted to see how many fixtures it can safely hold.


----------



## JD (May 13, 2016)

Quick note on the DJ DP-DMX-20L dimmer packs you listed:
These packs come with 15 amp connector, effectively limiting their load to 1800 watts total for the pack. (They may also have 14/3 power cables on them.) This limits you to 3 of the 575w fixtures per pack. In addition, you may want to make sure that there are independent circuits available so that each pack can be on it's own branch circuit. Also, those packs may lack a UL rating. 

You also want to deep-6 any of those orange "home depot" type extension cables. They tend to melt when in contact with a fixture. You should only be using type "S" or "SO" cables. Do not use SJ or SJO.


----------



## dwardMICS (May 18, 2016)

Honestly, the first place I would go would be to the folks at Barbizon Atlanta. I know it's three hours a way, but I'd call them first. They might be able to get someone out to you, but they might also know someone to talk to in the area.

Second, local colleges and universities. See who they buy from. That's a good starting point.

As someone who has gone through a significant purchase this year, here's a few things to think about and consider:

1. What do you need to get it done? I did the cheap-o dimmer packs and $200 lighting console. Ugh, at least it was a twelve channel, two scene preset! I was using all conventional fixtures, which was really fun on the power supply side of things! 

For you, there's no harm in doing the trees and dimmer packs if there is a long term plan. It's cheap, it's not reliable, and it's a waste of money over the years.

2. What do you want, on a basic level? If it's just to be seen, that's easy. Do you want color? Back light? Side light? Selective Focus? This is where the design aspect comes into play, and a college level teacher can really make your life easier.

3. How much is the school willing to fork over? That's always the biggest question. You can get by cheaply on the temporary positions, portable dimmers, trees, and whatever junk you can plug in, but it's not ideal. I had a quote for 6 ColorSource spots, 12 ColorSource Pars, and a ColorSource 20 av console including installation (in a gym) for about $50,000. That also included a motorized electric FoH and Over Stage. Don't know how well that might help or hurt.

Good luck!


----------



## DeadCheerios (May 19, 2016)

Going cheap almost guarentees in a couple years you will have to start replacing the gear. I always expect cheap gear to last the warranty then die on me.
Quality gear will last longer but is a more upfront cost.

It comes down to. Spend today and last years. Or spend every year.


----------



## BillConnerFASTC (May 19, 2016)

dwardMICS said:


> 3. How much is the school willing to fork over? That's always the biggest question. You can get by cheaply on the temporary positions, portable dimmers, trees, and whatever junk you can plug in, but it's not ideal. I had a quote for 6 ColorSource spots, 12 ColorSource Pars, and a ColorSource 20 av console including installation (in a gym) for about $50,000. That also included a motorized electric FoH and Over Stage. Don't know how well that might help or hurt.



The hoist installed is probably more than 50% of that. On a flat floor, is a dead hung batten and Genie lift not an option for you, considering you still really need the Genie to focus anyway? I'm not sure you're getting good advice. Luna, at the risk of sounding self serving, I'm going to say the same thing I said to Ashley: are you sure you can't justify the initial expense of an independent consultant who doesn't have a product to push, to at least review and comment and advise on a long range plan?


----------



## dthomas32308 (May 20, 2016)

I would definitely follow a lot of the advice given here as far as fixtures and rigging but as far as control of the lighting I would look more towards a "hybrid" solution with a PC and Wing solution like Martin M-PC with an M-Touch Wing. This will give you the flexibility to use faders or not depending on the events needs. M-PC is very flexible, ease of use, relatively small learning curve (compared to say ChamSys MagicPC) and growing quickly in popularity.


----------



## dthomas32308 (May 20, 2016)

Having had more time to read thru each and every post in full detail as well as the pictures etc I'm glad that you have been given the green light to bring in companies to consult/quote. They will be able to see a lot of the lingering questions I have just from reading the forum posts which do include a lot of detail but not quite everything.

The high school I attendeds auditorium was run down to put it nicely with everyone using it having been pushing for renovation for years but being in South GA naturally the football stadium had to undergo about 6 renovations before the auditorium was ever looked at but it finally was approved my junior year. Fortunately/unfortunately for me, I worked for the production company which won the bid so the summer before my senior year was spent stripping out the old resistance dimmers, strip lights and all 8 (yes 8) lekos used as front lights with my senior year afternoons and breaks spent working there as well.

Even though I was unable to use the facility for my senior theater productions which I was Tech Director/LD for which kind of was a punch in the guts but it ended up being a good thing as it won me the ear of the superintendent and many of the board members who'd listen to my recommendations of what needed to be changed from what the consultant spec'd and about half of which where implemented. I'm glad to have been dedicated to trying to push for a proper technical renovation as the consultant spec'd 8 lekos again as front lights but was able to get the board to approve adding 6 more fixtures, 8 circuits and cutting in 2 more holes for the lights in the coves. They also went with the console (ETC Express 48/96)I pushed for for lighting because I was not sold on the PC/Console combo from strand that was spec'd as I had many issues with them at other venues.

All in all, my advice is learn as much as you can about what you're trying to get done, stick to your guns, push as hard as you can to get it done right the first time and don't accept budget limitations as an reason unless your group is the only one to use the auditorium/theater then your pushed in a corner.

Please keep us updated as to what the companies have to say that you bring in as I would be very interested in following your project advance.


----------



## voztimbrada (May 20, 2016)

To further what dbaxter mentioned, I just thought I'd throw in my own perspective on the lighting software question. For your purposes, I think you may find the software solution to be the most flexible and economical. The obvious disadvantages of software are that computers (laptop or desktop) can be a bit more delicate than consoles, especially if you have a lot of different people using them. All that being said, I've been running three professional sit down productions at a theater in Branson, MO for the last 4 years using DMXis by Enttec. It's intended use is more for solo musicians, but we've adapted it to a professional theater setting with great success. It's running in two separate theater spaces, each with a wide array of lighting instruments, including large moving heads, led pars, and incandescent stuff run trough dimmers. The box with the software retails for around $300, and I find it quite easy to use (of course you have to consider the cost of the computer). We've been running this set up for paying audiences for the last four years, and by and large, I have no complaints. It's certainly not capable of what some of the more expensive consoles can do, but based on your description of your space and needs, it can do plenty, and certainly do everything you'd need it to do. If you really need the physical sliders, it can be connected to a midi controller or wing, so that you can still have some manual control when needed, without having to work a computer mouse. Another option that is a bit less established, but a beautiful peace of software in my opinion, is called myDMX 2.0. It's made by American DJ, and is designed with DJs in mind, but once again, could very easily handle your needs. I'm installing it in a new budget theater space that I'm opening later this year. I've heard the company is still working out a few bugs, but I downloaded the demo, and assuming it works consistently, it's a thing of beauty for a person in your circumstances. Might be worth looking at, as it's extremely user friendly and very powerful considering the price ($99 - $300 depending on features, DMX interface, and number of channels needed).

Anyway, that's my two cents. I'd be glad to answer any questions you might have about my own experiences with this stuff.


----------



## Luna1968 (Jun 12, 2016)

We have now had two representatives from different companies look at the space, and we are waiting for the details of their proposals. Both recommended an LED system, but offered to price a conventional light system as well. We are considering adding rigged lighting to the theater, as well as accessing for a portable tree system that could be moved to different locations, as we have three potential stages in the school system, including our primary auditorium mentioned here. I will continue to post when I have more information. Everyone here as been so incredibly helpful!


----------

