# RIP incandescent bulbs



## FMEng (Apr 27, 2022)

Yesterday, the Department of Energy sped up the demise of general purpose incandescent lamps. (GPIL/GPL in government speak.) They'll be off the market in 2023. For some of us, this will affect our house lighting, along with lights around makeup mirrors. Here's an article with the basics.
https://www.npr.org/2022/04/26/1094871850/light-bulbs-led-energy-incandescent

Here's an article that predates the final completion of the rule, but it gives the most detail that I could find.
https://www.natlawreview.com/articl...mpose-backstop-efficiency-standard-most-lamps

I am all for LED lighting, and energy savings, in the vast majority of applications. I'm optimistic because this will help with climate change, but I'm sad for what it's going to do to some public buildings. For example, I take care of the lighting in a church with some house lighting, around the sides, that uses 150 Watt 'A' bulbs. We'll have to endure the beautiful and artistic blink of dimmed LEDs or do a fixture retrofit costing tens of thousands of dollars. I can also envision circumstances where recessed LED lights will not work reliably due to ambient temperatures in attics. This is going to force architectural changes in some legacy and historic buildings.


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## Aaron Clarke (Apr 27, 2022)

Thanks for a little more deeper dive. 

I'm not so optimistic this actually helps the environment. My position as a 'casual observer' of humanity is anytime we make something more efficient we just use more of it, not reduce consumption. Just about every (middle/low income) house or apartment I can recall that I spent time in 20 years ago had likely one installed light fixture with two 60watt bulbs, maybe a lamp or two. Today, there are half a dozen recessed cans or wafer lights, several lamps and an assortment of other electronics just sitting so on table. I can tell you my house burns more in energy for lighting than it did when we moved in 15 years ago, despite converting to all LED. As we remodeled we brought things up to the current "standard" for ourselves and resale value and it's become so more accessible to be "upper class". Not even going to dive into the trap I find myself sometime in saying "no need to turn that off, it's led". 

Overall energy consumption growth supports this. Last time I looked world energy consumption is growing at almost double the pace than population and yes, we gain some so called "benefits" (the whole internet) but in all do we really come out ahead? Afterall, we still treat LED bulbs and integrated fixtures just like the good old incandescent, as throw away items, but now instead of some metal and glass, it's plastics and toxic chemicals going into the landfill. Speaking on integrated fixtures, I have some 2-3 dozen wafer fixtures in my house and when they die the whole thing goes in the trash, not just a bulb, plus probably all the other ones in that room because I'll never find a matching replacement. Food for thought. 

On the theatre side I personally think it's even worse (while I'll never admit it to the grant writers and fund givers) LED really doesn't save that much in energy and just look at how many short life span, throw away fixtures, are showing up on small-medium, lower budget stages everywhere. That $100 ADJ LED par will be in the trash long before I'll have to replace even one HPL in a S4 Par. Note I'm totally not saying LED in theatre doesn't have value, just not the value that is perceived by many outside the industry and buy those that make up these rules. Food for thought.

My 2 cents


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## Aaron Clarke (Apr 27, 2022)

Definitions pulled from the Proposed Rules. linked in National Law Review Article. I'm not smart enough to pull from that a hard exception for theatrical lighting-

"definition of GSL to be a lamp that has an ANSI base; is able to operate at a voltage of 12 volts or 24 volts, at or between 100 to 130 volts, at or between 220 to 240 volts, or at 277 volts for integrated lamps, or is able to operate at any voltage for non-integrated lamps; has an initial lumen output of greater than or equal to 310 lumens (or 232 lumens for modified spectrum general service incandescent lamps) and less than or equal to 3,300 lumens; is not a light fixture; is not an LED downlight retrofit kit; and is used in general lighting applications. "

"GSLs do not include: 
(1) Appliance lamps;
(2) Black light lamps; 
(3) Bug lamps; 
(4) Colored lamps; 
(5) G shape lamps with a diameter of 5 inches or more as defined in ANSI C79.1– 2002;
(6) General service fluorescent lamps;
(7) High intensity discharge lamps;
(8) Infrared lamps; 
(9) J, JC, JCD, JCS, JCV, JCX, JD, JS, and JT shape lamps that do not have Edison screw bases;
(10) Lamps that have a wedge base or prefocus base;
(11) Left-hand thread lamps; 
(12) Marine lamps; 
(13) Marine signal service lamps; 
(14) Mine service lamps; 
(15) MR shape lamps that have a first number symbol equal to 16 (diameter equal to 2 inches) as defined in ANSI C79.1–2002, operate at 12 volts, and have a lumen output greater than or equal to 800;
(16) Other fluorescent lamps;
(17) Plant light lamps;
(18) R20 short lamps; 
(19) Reflector lamps that have a first number symbol less than 16 (diameter less than 2 inches) as defined in ANSI C79.1– 2002 and that do not have E26/E24, E26d, E26/50x39, E26/53x39, E29/28, E29/53x39, E39, E39d, EP39, or EX39 bases; 
(20) S shape or G shape lamps that have a first number symbol less than or equal to 12.5 (diameter less than or equal to 1.5625 inches) as defined in ANSI C79.1–2002;
(21) Sign service lamps;
(22) Silver bowl lamps; 
(23) Showcase lamps; 
(24) Specialty MR lamps; 
(25) T shape lamps that have a first number symbol less than or equal to 8 (diameter less than or equal to 1 inch) as defined in ANSI C79.1–2002, nominal overall length less than 12 inches, and that are not compact fluorescent lamps; 
(26) Traffic signal lamps."

It was also interesting to see the WITTEN COMMENTS RECEIVED IN RESPONSE TO THE MAY 2021 RFI section.


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## FMEng (Apr 27, 2022)

Aaron Clarke said:


> Thanks for a little more deeper dive.
> 
> I'm not so optimistic this actually helps the environment. My position as a 'casual observer' of humanity is anytime we make something more efficient we just use more of it, not reduce consumption.



The stats seem to show that energy efficiency standards work. Electricity use in the US has plateaued for roughly the last decade, while the population continues growth.
https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/electricity/use-of-electricity.php


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## Aaron Clarke (Apr 27, 2022)

Agree that the US stayed stable over the past 20-30 years as we outsourced a large portion of all the manufacturing and resource sourcing needed for our consumption. The entire world is in the together, not just the US and those show nothing but rapid gains in consumption. Gains that efficiency increases alone can't make up for. 

https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=41433
https://www.statista.com/statistics/280704/world-power-consumption/

I'm not saying these steps don't have value, but without additional steps to account for the overall environmental impact of the manufacture, use and end life of the product in the entire world, it will not have the size of impact many like to paint that it will.


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## tdtastic (Apr 27, 2022)

We had a hell of a time moving from incandescent house lighting to LED. We knew we had to go with a lime-dimming option for budgetary reasons, but finding a lamp product that worked well with our D20's was not easy. And of course, the dimming manufacturer won't/can't recommend a specific lamp product (though they HAVE to know which lamps have tested better). I finally got our rep to throw out a few suggestions, off the record, which did help us narrow down our lamp search. We still went through about six different options. Some dimmed smoothly but had too cool of a color temp that made our burgundy auditorium walls and seat upholstery look like vomit. And, conversely, some of the warmer lamp options didn't dim well at all.

You can sometimes play around with programming alternative dimming curves to work better with a particular LED, but many venues with simple architectural dimming systems just don't have that level of control. 

It really is a balancing act, and you have to be willing/able to try out several options in your space before committing. I regret not remembering offhand which LED lamp we chose but I want to say it was made by Phillips. As more venues have to convert, I wish there were better resources to help techs in our field match LED lamps with dimming systems....perhaps someone should start a thread to share what has worked for them....


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## Aaron Clarke (Apr 27, 2022)

tdtastic said:


> We had a hell of a time moving from incandescent house lighting to LED. We knew we had to go with a lime-dimming option for budgetary reasons, but finding a lamp product that worked well with our D20's was not easy. And of course, the dimming manufacturer won't/can't recommend a specific lamp product (though they HAVE to know which lamps have tested better). I finally got our rep to throw out a few suggestions, off the record, which did help us narrow down our lamp search. We still went through about six different options. Some dimmed smoothly but had too cool of a color temp that made our burgundy auditorium walls and seat upholstery look like vomit. And, conversely, some of the warmer lamp options didn't dim well at all.
> 
> You can sometimes play around with programming alternative dimming curves to work better with a particular LED, but many venues with simple architectural dimming systems just don't have that level of control.
> 
> It really is a balancing act, and you have to be willing/able to try out several options in your space before committing. I regret not remembering offhand which LED lamp we chose but I want to say it was made by Phillips. As more venues have to convert, I wish there were better resources to help techs in our field match LED lamps with dimming systems....perhaps someone should start a thread to share what has worked for them....


ETC posts compatibility of their LED tests here:

https://www.etcconnect.com/compatibility/

Though, as I've tested options it's defiantly a "you milage may vary" and good luck as the manufacturer of the bulb you find, changes some minor thing and now a replacement or even one in the same order won't work the same. I've long been trying to find a A19 or Flood option for our house lights with no luck.


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## Aaron Clarke (Apr 27, 2022)

FMEng said:


> The stats seem to show that energy efficiency standards work. Electricity use in the US has plateaued for roughly the last decade, while the population continues growth.
> https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/electricity/use-of-electricity.php


Sorry, slow day and I'm down the rabbit hole. 
Happened across this info from the UN, basically making my argument is a much more coherent manner. Okay, I'll start my climb out of the hole

https://unstats.un.org/sdgs/report/2019/goal-12/


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## tdtastic (Apr 27, 2022)

Aaron Clarke said:


> ETC posts compatibility of their LED tests here:
> 
> https://www.etcconnect.com/compatibility/
> 
> Though, as I've tested options it's defiantly a "you milage may vary" and good luck as the manufacturer of the bulb you find, changes some minor thing and now a replacement or even one in the same order won't work the same. I've long been trying to find a A19 or Flood option for our house lights with no luck.


oh sweet! ETC definitely did not have this page several years ago when we were converting...


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## Jay Ashworth (Apr 28, 2022)

Betcha @STEVETERRY knows which of those exceptions HPLs and their cousins are covered by...


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## SteveB (Apr 28, 2022)

Jay Ashworth said:


> Betcha @STEVETERRY knows which of those exceptions HPLs and their cousins are covered by...



The million dollar question is will they be smart and exempt theatrical/television fixtures/lamps. They did not do this In the EU and I recall a big fight to get entertainment lamps exempted.


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## josh88 (Apr 29, 2022)

My venue moved over to LED's in all our architectural lighting a few years ago. our Energy provider gave us all the lamps we needed. Between lobby lights, marquee lights and dressing rooms we've got something like 500 lights that were changed. We used to average needing to change around 5 a week previously and are down to *maybe* 5 a year and have had demonstrable energy reductions and lower monthly electric bill. We were in fairly close contact with the energy company as we did all this and have gone over numbers and it is really because of how many lights we were using, we did a couple month study over the summer with them running no AC or other systems and just running house lights normally compared to other situations and it really tracks back to changing over all those house lights. They've *mostly* been fine, though the lobby lights that are on dimmers have a tendency sometimes to flicker, which is an issue we're still working on and its a minimally noticeable flicker that not everybody sees which I suppose is an upside.


SteveB said:


> The million dollar question is will they be smart and exempt theatrical/television fixtures/lamps. They did not do this In the EU and I recall a big fight to get entertainment lamps exempted.


so far it's specifically citing general service which would be normal residential style lamps (according to the DOE definitions) and not anything impacting stage lighting.


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## tjrobb (May 2, 2022)

My last project of significance was coordinating an "everything must go" incandescent replacement for the entire building. Between that and the T12 to T8 conversion, with some lamps removed, the savings has been... significant. I want to say I calculated 3000W+ saved, almost all in high-use areas.

I know we had a rep come by for this, we are all Philips. 3000K, R flood, I believe 18W (c2012). Only issue is a bit of a snap from blackout, but not terrible for line-dimming.


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## gafftaper (May 3, 2022)

Probably the biggest issue is older schools, churches, and small community theaters. There are a lot of people using household lamps out there, especially "flood lights" for house lights. None of us want to face the dim out "blink".

Canto makes an excellent direct replacement LED lamp that they can customize to just about any need and fixture fit. They dim nicely too. However all that customization comes at a VERY steep price tag. I have a set of 250 watt PAR 38 floods that are my only way to get down light onto my stage apron. I've been contemplating switching to the Canto LED's for a while but last I checked it was almost $700 each and that's hard to justify out of my just normal operations budget. So far I just keep stocking up on lamps instead.


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## microstar (May 3, 2022)

gafftaper said:


> Probably the biggest issue is older schools, churches, and small community theaters. There are a lot of people using household lamps out there, especially "flood lights" for house lights. None of us want to face the dim out "blink".
> 
> Canto makes an excellent direct replacement LED lamp that they can customize to just about any need and fixture fit. They dim nicely too. However all that customization comes at a VERY steep price tag. I have a set of 250 watt PAR 38 floods that are my only way to get down light onto my stage apron. I've been contemplating switching to the Canto LED's for a while but last I checked it was almost $700 each and that's hard to justify out of my just normal operations budget. So far I just keep stocking up on lamps instead.


I believe all of the Canto LED replacements have fans, which to me is totally unacceptable, as they would be the first thing to fail and as you say incredibly expensive.

I have had really good success using the GE 32-watt 120v LED PAR38 as a replacement in PAR38 houselight fixtures with 20'-25' throw. It is available in 25º and 40º. The lamp has worked well using ancient Electro Controls Quad, Colortran D192, and Lightronics AR1202 dimmers. Sometimes had to have 6 or 8 lamps on a 2400 watt dimmer for smooth dimming; slight bump on or off from black but nothing drastic.
About $30 each. LED32DP38W830/40 for the 40º version.


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## blueeyesdesigns (May 4, 2022)

So I'm trying to decipher these codes... Am I reading this correctly that neither my houselights (e11 250w mini candelabra) and music stand lights (e26 T10) are exempted and will be phased out? I've put in a project request to replace the houselights, but even if it's approved, it'll be YEARS before anything gets touched. I'm wondering if I should stock up now...


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## gafftaper (May 4, 2022)

blueeyesdesigns said:


> So I'm trying to decipher these codes... Am I reading this correctly that neither my houselights (e11 250w mini candelabra) and music stand lights (e26 T10) are exempted and will be phased out? I've put in a project request to replace the houselights, but even if it's approved, it'll be YEARS before anything gets touched. I'm wondering if I should stock up now...


I'm struggling with the same word salad code deciphering. My house lights are similar to yours (ESS 250 Watt T4's). It looks to me like your are in the clear with your house lights because the T4 is less than T8 and the initial lumen output of your lamps is over 3,300 lumens (Check the initial statement above the long code list for the lumen statement). The same applies to my house lights so I think we are both good, but I'm still stocking up because I'm pretty sure we are not far away from even more being banned. 

As for music stand lights I would start building your collection of LED rechargeable music stand lights. They are $20-$25 each on Amazon. They are more convenient than running power. But they have the headaches of all being made by random Chinese companies and the batteries just stop working for no reason and you have to throw them out. Plus, you have to develop a USB multi-charger plan to handle all the micro USB plugs.


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## FMEng (May 5, 2022)

I have the same issue with Q250CL/MC and Q500CL/MC (EVR) T4 house lights. They seem to be allowed, and I take some comfort in that they were allowed in the Obama era regulations that preceded this. I'm not going to hoard a pile of them, but I plan to keep a healthy stock on hand, enough to cushion a year if fixture replacement becomes a necessity.

As for music lights, I'd rather have ones that use a standard AA battery. That way, I can use alkalines or rechargeables, and easily swap the latter when they get tired. With recommendation from someone here, I bought some Mighty Bright 53510 music lights, and they have been great. They are pricey though.


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## egilson1 (May 5, 2022)

blueeyesdesigns said:


> So I'm trying to decipher these codes... Am I reading this correctly that neither my houselights (e11 250w mini candelabra) and music stand lights (e26 T10) are exempted and will be phased out? I've put in a project request to replace the houselights, but even if it's approved, it'll be YEARS before anything gets touched. I'm wondering if I should stock up now...


From the parallel discussion about HPL lamps.



DELO72 said:


> Hi Folks,
> 
> Put the panic button away. This "new" energy legislation is nothing of the sort. It merely reinstalls the rules already in place that were to go into effect in 2017 before Trump rescinded them. Nothing new here. No, HPLs and other Entertainment lamps are NOT impacted. This energy legislation affects GSL lamps- General Service Lamps. This is lighting for homes, offices, etc., the kind of which you can find at a Lowes or Home Depot.
> In the August 2021 NOPR, DOE proposed to amend the definitions of general service lamp and general service incandescent lamp as follows: 18 General service lamp means a lamp that has an ANSI base; is able to operate at a voltage of 12 volts or 24 volts, at or between 100 to 130 volts, at or between 220 to 240 volts, or of 277 volts for integrated lamps (as defined in this section), or is able to operate at any voltage for non-integrated lamps (as defined in this section); has an initial lumen output of greater than or equal to 310 lumens (or 232 lumens for modified spectrum general service incandescent lamps) and less than or equal to 3,300 lumens; is not a light fixture; is not an LED downlight retrofit kit; and is used in general lighting applications.
> ...


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## tdtastic (May 9, 2022)

gafftaper said:


> I'm struggling with the same word salad code deciphering. My house lights are similar to yours (ESS 250 Watt T4's). It looks to me like your are in the clear with your house lights because the T4 is less than T8 and the initial lumen output of your lamps is over 3,300 lumens (Check the initial statement above the long code list for the lumen statement). The same applies to my house lights so I think we are both good, but I'm still stocking up because I'm pretty sure we are not far away from even more being banned.
> 
> As for music stand lights I would start building your collection of LED rechargeable music stand lights. They are $20-$25 each on Amazon. They are more convenient than running power. But they have the headaches of all being made by random Chinese companies and the batteries just stop working for no reason and you have to throw them out. Plus, you have to develop a USB multi-charger plan to handle all the micro USB plugs.


We love our set of rechargeable stand lights from LOTUS that have a charging base that the lights sit on to juice up.


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## STEVETERRY (May 10, 2022)

FMEng said:


> Yesterday, the Department of Energy sped up the demise of general purpose incandescent lamps. (GPIL/GPL in government speak.) They'll be off the market in 2023. For some of us, this will affect our house lighting, along with lights around makeup mirrors. Here's an article with the basics.
> https://www.npr.org/2022/04/26/1094871850/light-bulbs-led-energy-incandescent
> 
> Here's an article that predates the final completion of the rule, but it gives the most detail that I could find.
> ...


I had the same issue with some 150W A lamps at home. I went looking for a suitable replacement. I just finished testing the Philips/Signify 29W A-21 "Warm Glow Effect" dimmable LED lamp--it's a "150W replacement". The ordering code is 29A21/PER/827-22/P/E26WG/HO.

I am impressed with the CCT, the CRI, and the dimming performance, as well as the output. It was better than any drop-in lamp I've ever seen. You may want to give this a shot--it was about $11 at Home Depot.

ST


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## FMEng (May 10, 2022)

Steve, that's very helpful. I will buy and try some with our vintage, Strand CD80AE. It's nice to see a decent bulb that isn't difficult to buy or expensive.


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## ship (May 23, 2022)

https://www.controlbooth.com/threads/rip-incandescent-bulbs.49050/post-433648 

Mini-Can based lights are second only to some of the 1950's era G-22 bases in bad lamp base - which were in G-22 a good lamp design but a really bad lamp base concept. In my opinion. Modern G-22 bases are much better, the E-11 Mini-Can was never improved.

E11 = Mini-Candelabra Edison Screw 7/16" (10.7mm) Dia Extended/Skirted to 17/32" (15mm) Dia. at Top of Skirt.(Dia of ceramic insulator is .531" at LCL measurement). IEC 7004-6-1

Really, putting 250-500w thru a smaller screw based - not focused lamp socket base than a G-16 golf ball marquee lamp normally at 40-60 watts? This type of lamp was popular in the day, could even find it at a hardware store.... but they do tend to fail and blow thru lamp sockets.


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## FMEng (May 24, 2022)

Our high house lights are 500 Watts with E11 bases, and the fixture is fully enclosed. They must have special duty sockets because, in almost 30 years, I have yet to replace one. The lights were made by Rambusch.


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## microstar (May 24, 2022)

FMEng said:


> Our high house lights are 500 Watts with E11 bases, and the fixture is fully enclosed. They must have special duty sockets because, in almost 30 years, I have yet to replace one. The lights were made by Rambusch.


That seems to be a very common houselight fixture in theatre and churches. Yes, the sockets do seem to last a long time, but I don't believe they are anything but the standard run-of-the-mill ones 
you can get as replacements.


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