# Attaching Flats to pipes for rigging



## Devon (Nov 28, 2011)

I have to attach several flats together and then fly them (we don't have drops).
What is the best method to do this?

Thanks in advance!


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## chausman (Nov 28, 2011)

This will probably be a risky subject. In terms of rigging, an Internet forum isn't the best place to get information. I would look in your area for someone to help you locally and in person. Or contacting MPowers, mstaylor, or WhatRigger? Privately may be a good start.


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## ScottT (Nov 28, 2011)

If you have to ask, you probably shouldn't. Contact a rigger in your area and they'll probably be able to help you out.


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## Robert (Nov 28, 2011)

I actually think that asking the question is a good thing and better than not asking and proceeding blindly. So, some good advice is:
First. Is the scenery constructed in such a manner as it can support itself suspended in the air. Poorly built flats have no business in the air.
Second. Can you connect the flats together in such a way as they become a solid unit. Use bolts. Structure is important and understanding how the load is distributed across teh unit is important.
Third. You need to use proper hardware, ie. hanging irons top and bottom. Use bolts! The local hardware store does not sell the proper hardware for this. 
Fourth and the trickiest. You must understand how to attach the flats to the lifting lines and the batten in a safe manner. This part requires lots of knowledge and experience.
Books for more information: _Stage Rigging_, Jay Glerum; _Stock Scenery Construction_, Bill Raoul; _Scene Design and Stage Lighting_, Oren Parker. Other good resources are to go by a local university and talk to their TD, go to your local theatre supply house and ask them. 
Understand that what you are doing is done all the time, but also know that what you are attempting can cause great harm to other people.


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## len (Nov 28, 2011)

Robert said:


> I actually think that asking the question is a good thing and better than not asking and proceeding blindly.


 
What they meant was "it's better to not ask on an internet forum where too many variables can be missed and too many people can get in trouble for not advising completely based on the specific situation."


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## chausman (Nov 28, 2011)

len said:


> What they meant was "it's better to not ask on an internet forum where too many variables can be missed and too many people can get in trouble for not advising completely based on the specific situation."


 
Yes. Asking someone is great. Asking on a website, not so much.


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## Grog12 (Nov 28, 2011)

Robert said:


> I actually think that asking the question is a good thing and better than not asking and proceeding blindly. So, some good advice is:
> First. Is the scenery constructed in such a manner as it can support itself suspended in the air. Poorly built flats have no business in the air.
> Second. Can you connect the flats together in such a way as they become a solid unit. Use bolts. Structure is important and understanding how the load is distributed across teh unit is important.
> Third. You need to use proper hardware, ie. hanging irons top and bottom. Use bolts! The local hardware store does not sell the proper hardware for this.
> ...


 
This is all very good advice and very in line with the  ToS 
Devon I suggest you heed number 4 and find someone with expierence to help out with the actual rigging of this project. As an educator you want to make sure that your students don't see you doing something the wrong way and believe that because their teacher did it its the right way to do it.


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## Robert (Nov 28, 2011)

I still say that not asking is the wrong answer. And I say that those who say don't ask online as a matter of principle are denying the importance and significance of a forum that attracts and encourages professional discourse. The only question asked was what is the best way to do it. That could have been answered by hiring a professional or by saying to research and understand the significance of your question. I gave what I think was important and relevant and relevant answers.


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## gafftaper (Nov 29, 2011)

Up until a year or so ago this thread would have received the answer, "If you have to ask, call a professional to do the work for you or get some training" and we would have promptly closed or deleted it. Recently we have relaxed the rules. There were two reasons for relaxing the rules: 
1) There is information out there on other websites about rigging and electricity which is sometimes wrong. Rather than turn a blind eye to bad information the staff decided it was better to let limited good information out. 
2) It is difficult to attract more professionals to the forum when rigging and electricity are completely banned topics. 

I believe Robert's post was the perfect answer to the question. It gives out some information which explains the primary issues and why it is critical to get good training without giving out information which could be dangerous. 

Finally, I want to point out that our real resident rigging experts are VERY careful about how they respond to questions like this. Real expert riggers are very guarded about how much information they share. My experience has always been that riggers are extremely helpful in person at teaching you hands on the right way. However via the internet, there are far too many variables to safely teach. I consider anyone who gives out information on the internet any more detailed than what has already been posted in this thread to be highly suspicious. When lighting fails the stage is dark, when sound fails the theater is quiet, when rigging fails people die. Real pro riggers are very careful about what they share. 

All that said, if you are a pro and want a more free discussion with other pros over more dangerous topics, there are ways that is done here on CB via PM and private groups. But not in public.


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## mstaylor (Nov 30, 2011)

It can be done but as noted there are many variables that require eyes on the problem to give advice. Read this thread and it will give you an idea of our concerns: http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/news/23114-blue-man-group-shows-cancelled-iowa-due-damage-runaway-batten.html This was done by professionals and still things went wrong. The other side is improperly done it can fall which is obviously just as dangerous. Finally we have no idea of the OP's experience level. 
It is good that he comes here to ask advice and the references are good starts on the answer. Nothing beats having a pro standing there looking at the problem. As the old saying goes,"If you don't as first succeed, don't rig." 
Welcome to the site, hopefully we aren't scaring you off, it's a good bunch here.


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## Devon (Nov 30, 2011)

Thank you all for your words of wisdom. I have been safely scared away from this project for now (in a good way). I really appreciate the time all of you took to offer advice. Here's my current plan:
I have 6 10x4 flats that I have secured together with to make one big flat wall. I will attach braces to the back (I'm not sure how many yet- suggestions?) and sandbag them for support. I'm not allowed to drill into the deck, which is where the idea of flying the wall came from- it doesn't actually have to go in and out, but can remain on stage the whole time. It's a backdrop wall for a show next weekend. I am still concerned about their stability even with braces. Maybe I don't need to be- tall braces will be enough? 
Again, thank you everyone for your ideas!

-Devon


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## mstaylor (Nov 30, 2011)

Devon said:


> Thank you all for your words of wisdom. I have been safely scared away from this project for now (in a good way). I really appreciate the time all of you took to offer advice. Here's my current plan:
> I have 6 10x4 flats that I have secured together with to make one big flat wall. I will attach braces to the back (I'm not sure how many yet- suggestions?) and sandbag them for support. I'm not allowed to drill into the deck, which is where the idea of flying the wall came from- it doesn't actually have to go in and out, but can remain on stage the whole time. It's a backdrop wall for a show next weekend. I am still concerned about their stability even with braces. Maybe I don't need to be- tall braces will be enough?
> Again, thank you everyone for your ideas!
> 
> -Devon


Are you using cloth flats or luan? The process is the same but sometimes the flat construction is different. Attach the walls together and add a brace at each intersection of flats. A 30/60 triangle should be fine.


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## kicknargel (Nov 30, 2011)

Yup, that's that totally standard way to do it. Just be sure to use enough weight that it has no chance of tipping forward.


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## derekleffew (Nov 30, 2011)

Devon said:


> ...I will attach braces to the back (I'm not sure how many yet- suggestions?) and sandbag them for support. ...


If flat, Broadway I'd suggest a stage jack at every joint, aka 4' O.C.; if flat, Hollywood then 6' O.C.


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## Devon (Nov 30, 2011)

Again, THANK YOU everyone for your advice and support!
They are broadway flats. I have tall jacks and lots of sand bags. I will secure a jack at each "seam" of the flats.

THANK YOU!


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## DuckJordan (Nov 30, 2011)

Since they aren't being flown you could easily do guy wires to help add some stability. Again this doesn't mean the rigging system is taking the weight. its just helping in case of someone bumping or running into the flats. 

As far as the Blue man groups runaway. It was done by improperly trained college students not pro's. 

Now back to the origional topic. Its always a good idea to stabilize from the ground up first anyway since its the easiest to do. But I will say the attaching guy wires to the overhead batten isn't a bad idea either (again do not lift with these guy wires).


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## gafftaper (Dec 1, 2011)

If you need more weight I've found that the concrete blocks like this are an awesome solution, available at just about any lumber yard. Flip the block upside down and slide the brace into the slot, I then add a little extra wood to the width of the brace to give it a nice stable place to sit. No messy sand spills, easy to stack and store, and cheap!


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## chausman (Dec 1, 2011)

Our school uses the weight from the rigging system to hold flats up. (and doors open) They actually fit really well.


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## derekleffew (Dec 1, 2011)

chausman said:


> Our school uses the weight from the rigging system to hold flats up. [-](and doors open)[/-] They actually fit really well.


I thought that's why pig weights had those notches on the ends?




http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/scenery-props-rigging/23353-cant-screw-into-stage.html#post206430

Using them as doorstops is usually a big firecode no-no, however.


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## chausman (Dec 1, 2011)

derekleffew said:


> I thought that's why pig weight had those notches on the ends?
> 
> http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/scenery-props-rigging/23353-cant-screw-into-stage.html#post206430
> 
> Using them as doorstops is usually a big firecode no-no, however.


 
That's what I meant. I didn't know the name for them. 

Uh...


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## mstaylor (Dec 1, 2011)

DuckJordan said:


> As far as the Blue man groups runaway. It was done by improperly trained college students not pro's.


The school side was students but the show crew were pros. They should certainly know better than going that far out of weight.


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## derekleffew (Dec 5, 2011)

Lake Oswego performance accident sends 1 to hospital - Koinlocal6.com


> The object that struck the patient was a frame made out of 2 X 4 lumber and particle board which was about 6 to 8 feet long and 2 feet wide. The frame fell from the sky loft area above the stage and fell from at least 20 feet. The failure appeared to be isolated to the material that fell and does not involve any structural part of the facility.


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