# Lighting Proposal



## Charc (Dec 17, 2007)

So long story short, we have a very highly ranked craftshow at my school every year, and the Parents Association gets about 15k-30k from it. Every year they pick a “pet project”. One year it was playground equipment. Last year it was all new MacBooks for the Modern Languages Department. I’m hoping this year it can be lighting.

I just got the go ahead from my dept head to draft a proposal for theatre. Unfortunately, the consensus among faculty and staff is that because we got a million to partially renovate our theatre, that we’re now “set” for a long, long time. I’d love to sway public opinion.

I gave some thought to what I’d add in a lighting package. While DMX toys are fun and all, there are two major problems, they cost a lot, and once I leave, no one will know how to use them, or take the time to learn. So, it’s conventionals across the board. I love the idea of stocking primarily HPLs, so I’m looking at S4s and S4 PARs. I’m not quite sure what the difference is between the EA and MCM. They can both be lamped with 750W, and come with the 5 interchangeable lenses, correct? So the only different is the MCM has the metal cold mirror? In that case, I find the cost justifiable. I’m trying to make this the “gift that keeps on giving”. Decreased operating temperatures will make our gel last longer, a huge plus.

I have to take a look at how many instruments would be worth spec’ing, but I’m looking in the ballpark of 40 total. I need to also come up with some breakdowns by beam angle, etc.

I’d love to add some accessories to this list. Of primary importance is drop-down extenders. As it stands, we can’t hit the stage from our 4th AP slot, the angle is a little shallow, but it should help.

Here are my sales pitches right now:

•	Energy saving on the HPL 575W lamp vs 1000W FEL, 1000W PAR64s and 750W EHGs

•	Safer: Smaller and lighter, easier for high school students to hang in cramped conditions. Have accessory slot safety clips (correct name?). 

•	Will provide us the ability to evenly and consistently light the stage.

•	Will replace our ancient and dying inventory with industry standard instruments.

•	Cooler operating temperatures means less heat to contend with (we have no AC in the building).

•	Cooler light output means longer life of gel and GOBOs. (It's the gift that keeps on giving!)

•	These lights will not need replacement for at least 20 years.

This is a long shot, but I’d love to give it a try. Any thoughts anyone?


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## Grog12 (Dec 17, 2007)

Yeah a couple...what's your current inventory look like and what do you want it to be?

I think you've got a good pitch going but these sound like bottom line people so crunch some numbers for them.

Also...as a way to show what you need in a space...put together a dream rep dance plot. The nice thing about this is it covers every angle and the stage is basically empty and will give you an idea of what lights you'll need. I love the fact that you're looking at it responsibly and understanding that this is a HS theatre so "DMX toys" are being avoided.


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## icewolf08 (Dec 17, 2007)

The ideas are good, and grog has good points too. The real key is that you have to write your proposal in a very precise and businesslike manner. You don't want it to be just a list. You might want to take photos of equipment that is falling apart or unsafe, but only if anyone looking at it can tell something is wrong. You will also want to include real figures in terms of prices of new equipment. Once you figure out what you need/want call a couple dealers and get quotes.

Don't forget to make sure that while you want new equipment you ask for anything else you may need. If you are short safety cables ask for more. Make sure when you get quotes for new fixtures that you include lamps, clamps, color frames, and safeties. Some dealers, like BMI include all that always, but others don't. This is also a good time to stop using FEL lamps and switch to one of the newer 575w or 750w lamps (GLA/GLC or GLE/GLD).

Ask for as much money as you are allowed to because you will inevitably not get as much as you want. Make sure that you, personally, have a plan for what you would get if you were given different amounts of money. Don't tell the people with the money that you can get by with less though!


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## Charc (Dec 17, 2007)

Can I specify to the dealer to have safety cables attached permanently to the S4 via the safety cable hole on the body of the instrument. (That's what that's there for, right?)

So when I get an approximate list of gear, then I get a quote from a dealer, and list those prices on the proposal?

Is it worth counting how many instruments I have in the air, finding their wattage, and mentioning how many energy is saved, if all instruments are run at full for an hour, something like that?

I'm not sure about the "dream dance plot". I feel that I'm not that good of a designer to accomplish that. I thought more along the lines of 14º and 19º instruments, with a sprinkle of 26º-90º (remember my long throws!). I'm going to find the diameter of the lens tube of the 10º and 5º, and see if they will fit in our catwalks.


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## Sean (Dec 17, 2007)

charcoaldabs said:


> I thought more along the lines of 14º and 19º instruments, with a sprinkle of 26º-90º (remember my long throws!). I'm going to find the diameter of the lens tube of the 10º and 5º, and see if they will fit in our catwalks.



Make sure that they not only fit, but can actually be focused where you want them. Also consider the added length of the 14°-5° fixtures--will someone be able to reach the front of the light SAFELY to change color, etc?

--Sean


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## jwl868 (Dec 17, 2007)

I think the technical aspects may be the easiest part. From the “public opinion” side, is the “Parents Association” a PTA (That is, affiliated directly with the state and National PTA organizations), or is it an independent organization (often called a PTO) with no ties to any state or national associations?

The difference would be in the bylaws of the organization. 

Under PTA bylaws, “pet projects”, such as they are, must still be voted on by the membership (or, to be more specific, must be voted on at a meeting.) I would also expect a PTO to be very similar, but often the by-laws of those types of organizations are poorly written.

The next issue is how this organization is really run, compared to how it is supposed to be run per the bylaws. Too often, PTAs are dictatorships (often benevolent) run by a few people who run roughshod over the membership, bylaws, and the rules. [A litmus test is to find an officer, ask to see a copy of the bylaws, and see what the reaction is.] Contrary to popular belief, a PTA president and its officers do not make all of the decisions; membership does. (On the other hand, the PTA officers usually have the blessings of the membership.) More often than not, the officers define the action to be taken, and there are no objections from the members.

There is a potentially ugly situation here, but the proper way (assuming either standard PTA bylaws, or a decent set of PTO bylaws that has the power in the membership and recognizes Robert’s rules of order) to decide on the “pet project” is for a member to make a motion at a regular meeting that “the funds from the craft show be contributed to the theatre department lighting system” or some similar wording. It is then debated and voted on.

On the other hand, if the membership are sheep or apathetic, then the reality is that the officers make unilateral decisions and run the organization. 

You must determine how this organization is being run so that you can follow the proper channels and have a chance in succeeding. That is, you need to talk to members who actually go to meetings. Your single biggest PR issue may be the $ spent on the theatre already.

[That’s the short version – I was parliamentarian for my daughter’s elementary school PTA. PTAs and PTOs can be ugly business and I am assuming the worst.]


Joe


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## gafftaper (Dec 17, 2007)

jwl868 said:


> I think the technical aspects may be the easiest part. From the “public opinion” side, is the “Parents Association” a PTA (That is, affiliated directly with the state and National PTA organizations), or is it an independent organization (often called a PTO) with no ties to any state or national associations?
> The difference would be in the bylaws of the organization.
> Under PTA bylaws, “pet projects”, such as they are, must still be voted on by the membership (or, to be more specific, must be voted on at a meeting.) I would also expect a PTO to be very similar, but often the by-laws of those types of organizations are poorly written.
> The next issue is how this organization is really run, compared to how it is supposed to be run per the bylaws. Too often, PTAs are dictatorships (often benevolent) run by a few people who run roughshod over the membership, bylaws, and the rules. [A litmus test is to find an officer, ask to see a copy of the bylaws, and see what the reaction is.] Contrary to popular belief, a PTA president and its officers do not make all of the decisions; membership does. (On the other hand, the PTA officers usually have the blessings of the membership.) More often than not, the officers define the action to be taken, and there are no objections fro the members.
> ...



Charc is a spoiled rich kid at a private school. So the PTA should be able to do what it wants.


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## gafftaper (Dec 17, 2007)

The EA runs a little hotter but it is also brighter than the MCM. Check the Photometric data on the ETC datasheet downloads. I decided to go with EA for my theater and make the actors sweat a little more.


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## Grog12 (Dec 17, 2007)

charcoaldabs said:


> Can I specify to the dealer to have safety cables attached permanently to the S4 via the safety cable hole on the body of the instrument. (That's what that's there for, right?)
> So when I get an approximate list of gear, then I get a quote from a dealer, and list those prices on the proposal?
> Is it worth counting how many instruments I have in the air, finding their wattage, and mentioning how many energy is saved, if all instruments are run at full for an hour, something like that?
> I'm not sure about the "dream dance plot". I feel that I'm not that good of a designer to accomplish that. I thought more along the lines of 14º and 19º instruments, with a sprinkle of 26º-90º (remember my long throws!). I'm going to find the diameter of the lens tube of the 10º and 5º, and see if they will fit in our catwalks.



Yes get quotes...note the plural..get it from more than one dealer cause as I'm sure gaff will tell you they'll want them.

Here's why I go with dream dance plot...it convers all the angles and with the booms usually gets you a few more bodies than you can hange. The 14/19's that you're specking for your long throws from FOH are great, but from a design perspective what can you put overhead to really pop an actor out from the set? 

And if you have drawings of the space I'm sure there's a number of us here who would help out with my silly little idea.


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## gafftaper (Dec 17, 2007)

Charc check out the prices at Production Advantage and Premier Lighting. You can assume that your competitive bid pricing will meet or beat their prices. Depends on how much you are buying, the more you spend, the better the deal you will get. But the advertised prices you see there are pretty close to what you will pay. Also pay attention to the cost of shipping. It can kill you.


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## Charc (Dec 17, 2007)

I didn't realize, is the 14º longer overall? (Just looked it up, 4"...)

I really feel like I need the 14º, even with the added cost.

I believe my throw distance on the 1st AP Slot (Straight down) is 26' or so. The other lighting positions, I'm not sure about. Only that 19º from the back of my catwalk covers entire acting area, more or less.

I'm really leaning towards the MCM, though I'll check out the photometrics charts. I'm concerned we'll loose overall output, compared to EGHs and FELs, that will disappoint the Dept Head, but the 575WHPL is industry standard, right?

Here is what I had in the air for my last show, we have a few more instruments than this, but they are in a state of disrepair / disuse.

INSTRUMENT TYPE COUNT

4 - S4-19 @ 575w
4 Total

6 - 6x22 @ 1kw
6 Total

13 - 1KL6-20 @ 1kw
13 Total

7 - 1KL6-30 @ 1kw
7 Total

2 - PAR56-MFL @ 500w
2 Total

8 - PAR64-MFL @ 1kw
8 Total

9 - 4.5" Zoom @ 750w
9 Total

4 - Strand 6x12 @ 1kw
4 Total

1 - LEKO @ 1kw
1 Total

11 - 360Q @ 750w
11 Total

2 - Lycian Midget 1206 Followspot @ 1kw
2 Total

8 - MR Open Face @ 1kw
8 Total

9 - SKY-CYC-03 @ 1kw
9 Total

2 - PAR64-NSP @ 1kw
2 Total

3 - 6" Fresnel
3 Total

1 - Fluros
1 Total

1 - Rosco I-Cue
1 Total

1 - Chandelier
1 Total


TOTAL LIGHTS: 90

TOTAL MOVING LIGHTS: 1

TOTAL OTHER: 1


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## Charc (Dec 17, 2007)

gafftaper said:


> Charc check out the prices at Production Advantage and Premier Lighting. You can assume that your competitive bid pricing will meet or beat their prices. Depends on how much you are buying, the more you spend, the better the deal you will get. But the advertised prices you see there are pretty close to what you will pay. Also pay attention to the cost of shipping. It can kill you.



What should I factor in, as shipping estimate?

I have a fine line here between making the administration POed, and getting my proposal looked at.

To *jwl*, Gaff is right.


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## Pie4Weebl (Dec 17, 2007)

personally charc I would get a local dealer onboard with this, figure out everything you want and send a few dealers the list and ask for quotes. This way you have something very tangable for the board.

Also do you have enough dimming and cable for the new fixtures you want?


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## STEVETERRY (Dec 17, 2007)

charcoaldabs said:


> So long story short, we have a very highly ranked craftshow at my school every year, and the Parents Association gets about 15k-30k from it. Every year they pick a “pet project”. One year it was playground equipment. Last year it was all new MacBooks for the Modern Languages Department. I’m hoping this year it can be lighting.
> I just got the go ahead from my dept head to draft a proposal for theatre. Unfortunately, the consensus among faculty and staff is that because we got a million to partially renovate our theatre, that we’re now “set” for a long, long time. I’d love to sway public opinion.
> I gave some thought to what I’d add in a lighting package. While DMX toys are fun and all, there are two major problems, they cost a lot, and once I leave, no one will know how to use them, or take the time to learn. So, it’s conventionals across the board. I love the idea of stocking primarily HPLs, so I’m looking at S4s and S4 PARs. I’m not quite sure what the difference is between the EA and MCM. They can both be lamped with 750W, and come with the 5 interchangeable lenses, correct? So the only different is the MCM has the metal cold mirror? In that case, I find the cost justifiable. I’m trying to make this the “gift that keeps on giving”. Decreased operating temperatures will make our gel last longer, a huge plus.
> I have to take a look at how many instruments would be worth spec’ing, but I’m looking in the ballpark of 40 total. I need to also come up with some breakdowns by beam angle, etc.
> ...



Any asbestos leads in those old fixtures? That always has a surprisingly galvanizing effect on the proposal.

ST


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## Charc (Dec 17, 2007)

I must be an idiot. 19º would be fine for a bulk of the inventory. I'm just thinking about when used on the side catwalk positions, it's really not that large, especially when used directly down, and some 26ºs and 36ºs would definitely be called for. I'd really like to have about 8 14ºs, and some 10ºs or even 5ºs just to have that capability for some sort of special. The same thing for 50ºs 70ºs and 90ºs. 50ºs I see being used from the catwalks for a large wash, with 70ºs on booms, and 90ºs and extremely short throw locations (I can think of some applications.)


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## Charc (Dec 17, 2007)

STEVETERRY said:


> Any asbestos leads in those old fixtures? That always has a surprisingly galvanizing effect on the proposal.
> ST



I'm not sure how to check for these, or what to look for. It's possible though.


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## Charc (Dec 17, 2007)

Dimmers and distribution really isn't a problem, but i'd spec some new cable, to replace some of our old crap. Then rewire the smaller auditoriums with stage pin, and cycle the instruments down the line, so to speak.


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## fredthe (Dec 17, 2007)

charcoaldabs said:


> I'm not sure how to check for these, or what to look for. It's possible though.


Asbesdos leads will (typically) be individual wires (2 or 3) from the instrument to the plug, with "fuzzy" white insulation (kinda cloth-like).

Be very careful with claiming the asbesdos as a problem. I know of one instance where a public school complained to the county about the asbestos, hoping to get their instruments replaced. The county's response was to send in a "specialist" who removed (and disposed of) all the wiring and plugs from the instruments... leaving them with no working lights!


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## Charc (Dec 17, 2007)

fredthe said:


> Asbesdos leads will (typically) be individual wires (2 or 3) from the instrument to the plug, with "fuzzy" white insulation (kinda cloth-like).
> Be very careful with claiming the asbesdos as a problem. I know of one instance where a public school complained to the county about the asbestos, hoping to get their instruments replaced. The county's response was to send in a "specialist" who removed (and disposed of) all the wiring and plugs from the instruments... leaving them with no working lights!



Don't worry, no asbestos here!

I was worried that would happen if I claimed anything was unsafe, some I'm going with only using the word "safer".


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## icewolf08 (Dec 17, 2007)

charcoaldabs said:


> I must be an idiot. 19º would be fine for a bulk of the inventory. I'm just thinking about when used on the side catwalk positions, it's really not that large, especially when used directly down, and some 26ºs and 36ºs would definitely be called for. I'd really like to have about 8 14ºs, and some 10ºs or even 5ºs just to have that capability for some sort of special. The same thing for 50ºs 70ºs and 90ºs. 50ºs I see being used from the catwalks for a large wash, with 70ºs on booms, and 90ºs and extremely short throw locations (I can think of some applications.)



I would actually measure or calculate your throws before you go buying long throw instruments. On the plot that you sent me a bit ago, the longest throw is about 68'. At that throw you could use 10˚ units, but I doubt you need 5˚s.

If the goal is to replace old equipment you should look at what you have, and start by purchasing direct replacements. Once you start an inventory of source 4 bodies, it is easy and a lot cheaper to buy lenses when you have money. Speaking of lenses, that may be something you want to add to your proposal. Having extra lenses gives lots of flexibility.


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## jwl868 (Dec 17, 2007)

charcoaldabs said:


> I have a fine line here between making the administration POed, and getting my proposal looked at.
> To *jwl*, Gaff is right.


 
(Gaff – thank the man.)

But seriously, the money from the craft show – who really controls where it goes? As I read your first post, it sounded like a PTA-type organization makes that decision, which I assumed to be independent of the school administration. But the post above suggests that the parents organization is tied closely to the administration/school.

On the other hand, if it is a PTA or PTO that can do what it wants, then my previous comment still applies: find out how the system really works: a group of officers with real or de facto power; some committee with real or de facto power; or a membership-driven-rule-of-order-following democracy.

Joe


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## soundlight (Dec 17, 2007)

gafftaper said:


> The EA runs a little hotter but it is also brighter than the MCM. Check the Photometric data on the ETC datasheet downloads. I decided to go with EA for my theater and make the actors sweat a little more.



The main (and I do believe only) difference between the S4 PAR EA and the S4 PAR MCM is the reflector. The EA has an *E*nhanced *A*luminum reflector, which is just your standard theatrical fixture reflector, as I understand it. The MCM has a *M*etal *C*old *M*irror reflector, which is like the reflector of a Source Four, and gets rid of alot more of the heat at the back of the fixture, which makes the beam cooler, and makes the fixture run cooler, because more heat is sent straight out the heat sink rather than being absorbed by the fixture. Also, due to the design and heat transfer of the MCM reflector, you _cannot_ use a 750W lamp with a S4 PAR MCM.


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## soundlight (Dec 17, 2007)

Looking back over the whole thread again - if you want to do any kind of overhead gobo wash, get plenty of 50's. We usually do at least three gobo washes for dance concerts, mostly with 50's. They also make great set washers with gobos. 26's and 36's will be able to take care of most close FOH stuff and some of the overhead stuff, as well as sidelight positions and pipe ends.

Could you post a CAD file of the space for us to look at? That'd be a great help in making reccomendations.

Also, with that kind of budget, look in to getting some easy-to-use non-DMX toys like a pair of GAM filmFX units and some Apollo Smart Move rotators. You might also look in to getting another I-Cue or two or three, they're easy to program with a pair of faders.


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## Charc (Dec 17, 2007)

To *Alex*:
While I don't think there will be a ton of use for 5ºs, I wanna add them to the proposal, because after my insight to the inner workings of our dept and school, we won't have another chance to purchase instruments. If going from the back of house lighting position to the CYC, the longest possible throw in my theatre is 90', not taking into account any downward angle. Given cost constraints, I was hoping to figure out how many instruments we need, then add 10. This gives us spares etc. Then from there if there was anything left over, add in accessories, lastly tubes.

To *jwl*:
The proposal gets submitted from every organization/dept to the administration, which then okays everything, compiles it in a list, and hands it to the Parents Association, who then ultimately decides on where the money goes.

To *soundlight*: Great note on MCMs not using 750W lamps. This makes the decision even harder in my mind. Now I'm really down a hole.

To *soundlight*:
I will post a quick snap of my venue, but I do not have a good quality anything. I've been conferring with other CB members, as to how best to go about drafting my plot in VW, given my circumstance, but I'll get something up here soon.

Some type of rotator or Film FX unit is an interesting idea, and is quite possibly worth considering. Unfortunately, even a "simple" I-Cue seems too complex for a high school. I love the one we have, but I think we'll stay at one. I'm hesitant to even add some type of rotator though, as I fear it will get underused, an forgotten about by the faculty. My TD did say "We need what? At least 8 color changers", but doesn't have a clue as to how to patch them in, program with them, set them up, etc. I also think they will just simply cost too much.


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## icewolf08 (Dec 17, 2007)

charcoaldabs said:


> To *Alex*:
> While I don't think there will be a ton of use for 5ºs, I wanna add them to the proposal, because after my insight to the inner workings of our dept and school, we won't have another chance to purchase instruments. If going from the back of house lighting position to the CYC, the longest possible throw in my theatre is 90', not taking into account any downward angle. Given cost constraints, I was hoping to figure out how many instruments we need, then add 10. This gives us spares etc. Then from there if there was anything left over, add in accessories, lastly tubes.


The reason that I suggest not investing in fixtures like the 5˚ is that they are significantly more expensive, and for the limited usage that you suggest, you are better served spending money on gear that will be used on a regular basis. Since you can buy 2 "standard" lens source 4s for the price of one 5˚ you get much more bang for your buck and more units that will get used on a regular basis. If you are concerned about getting equipment that will continue to be used it makes more sense to invest in equipment that is more useful and less specialized.


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## soundlight (Dec 17, 2007)

icewolf08 said:


> The reason that I suggest not investing in fixtures like the 5˚ is that they are significantly more expensive, and for the limited usage that you suggest, you are better served spending money on gear that will be used on a regular basis. Since you can buy 2 "standard" lens source 4s for the price of one 5˚ you get much more bang for your buck and more units that will get used on a regular basis. If you are concerned about getting equipment that will continue to be used it makes more sense to invest in equipment that is more useful and less specialized.


I've gotta go with Alex on this one - the number of times that you will actually use those instruments will be small, since you'll usually be putting a special on someone from much less of an angle - and 5 degree instruments eat budgets for breakfast.


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## muvment (Dec 17, 2007)

I'm going to disagree with everybody and state that you should give them a picture of a Shogun with a price tage attached. They'll make the right decision. Who wouldn't choose a shogun?


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## soundlight (Dec 17, 2007)

charcoaldabs said:


> To *soundlight*: Great note on MCMs not using 750W lamps. This makes the decision even harder in my mind. Now I'm really down a hole.
> 
> To *soundlight*:
> Some type of rotator or Film FX unit is an interesting idea, and is quite possibly worth considering. Unfortunately, even a "simple" I-Cue seems too complex for a high school. I love the one we have, but I think we'll stay at one. I'm hesitant to even add some type of rotator though, as I fear it will get underused, an forgotten about by the faculty. My TD did say "We need what? At least 8 color changers", but doesn't have a clue as to how to patch them in, program with them, set them up, etc. I also think they will just simply cost too much.


1) Get EA pars. We have the EA model, the beam is still way cooler than a PAR64, and they're great fixtures. And you really don't need 750W lamps in most cases - the only time that we ever use 750's is for icue special fixtures, and on the 575 fixtures, they almost never reach full. This is in a venue with a 20' or so trim on most electrics. I'd stock mostly 575's - the output really is comprable to that of an FEL or a PAR64. ETC really scored with their engineering of the reflectors.
2) Film FX units = moving fire. Film FX units = moving water. They'll probably get used, if either of those effects are required. They look great on a cyc, too.
3) Good call on any type of color changer - if the school can't use an I-Cue well, there's no way that they're gonna figure out a scroller, LED fixture, Nexera or Seachanger.
4) Slightly off topic, but make sure to come up with a good rep plot before you leave the school - chances are it'll still be there when you get back.


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## Charc (Dec 17, 2007)

Good points, sadly, agreed...

10ºs are in though, I presume.

Okay, this is SO rough, so don't laugh!

Also, Not everything is accurate. Some guesswork and rough measurements etc.

That and the end of my stage got cutoff.

Edit:
*soundlight*, the EA is the one that _can_ handle the 750W lamp. So if I don't need it, why not go MCM? Or is it a price factor, at 80 bucks cheaper?

Double Edit:
Looking at that, and remembering, I should have 10 circuits/dimmers per lighting position, so that's a total of 60 circuits/dimmers in the canopy, not counting the other 10 houselight circuits/dimmers, which don't really count but could be used sorta maybe no.

Triple Edit:
There really only is room for 10 instruments per position, except you could squeeze some more in on the side positions. We don't use fresnels, for some reason, and we don't use instruments on booms, backstage, on the columns, on the electrics, etc, as often as we should. So I'm looking somewhere around the ballpark of 75 instruments? Wow, that's a LOT more than I imagined.


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## Pie4Weebl (Dec 17, 2007)

charc, wanna put a key on the plot?


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## icewolf08 (Dec 17, 2007)

charcoaldabs said:


> *soundlight*, the EA is the one that _can_ handle the 750W lamp. So if I don't need it, why not go MCM? Or is it a price factor, at 80 bucks cheaper?


Once again, you are going for bang for your buck. The advantage of the MCM S4 PAR are not great enough for you to spend an extra $80 on them. If you were to buy 10, that is $800 you would save for other more useful equipment. Plus, the lamp flexibility of the EA could be a big benefit.

Yes, I would consider 10˚ units, but from your Slot 4 they are going to give you a smaller than 10' diameter area. You may do better with more 14˚ units than 10˚ I would consider a small number of 10˚ if any at all just for specials. You think that you have a long throw, but when you do the math you may find that you are better off with different instrumentation.


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## fredthe (Dec 17, 2007)

charcoaldabs said:


> Looking at that, and remembering, I should have 10 circuits/dimmers per lighting position, so that's a total of 60 circuits/dimmers in the canopy, not counting the other 10 houselight circuits/dimmers, which don't really count but could be used sorta maybe no.
> Triple Edit:
> There really only is room for 10 instruments per position, except you could squeeze some more in on the side positions. We don't use fresnels, for some reason, and we don't use instruments on booms, backstage, on the columns, on the electrics, etc, as often as we should. So I'm looking somewhere around the ballpark of 75 instruments? Wow, that's a LOT more than I imagined.


How big (kW) are the dimmers... remember you can (possibly) 2-fer instruments together... where you can fit them.

Do you have ANY lighting poisitions/circuits on stage? Are they already properly equipped? (Or, are they just ignored?)

Also, how high are the positions you've indicated above the stage?


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## Charc (Dec 17, 2007)

Okay, point taken on the EA, I'll take the hit on gel. Does it noticeably consume gel faster?

All dimmers are 2.4kW, the theatre is dimmer-per-circuit. there is a column stage left and stage right, with 3 circuits ground level just off stage, and 2 circuits balcony level, on the other side of the column is about 6-8 more circuits, all in the audience balcony. Then, we have maybe 10 or so circuits scattered backstage. One doesn't work (I think the wiring is bad), and several others are used for the fake 2nd electric. The, we have the 1st Elec, which has 10 circuit itself, 6 used for wash instruments (old cyc lights).

Pie, the plot is _far_ from done. And I need to learn how to make one first. 

10º are essentially 6x22ºs, of which we have maybe 8 in the inventory. I like 'em. They're pretty tight. I think realistically 5ºs are not worth it, though I can see using them for some specific ultra tight special or pattern projection. We could definitely do with less of those, though.

Yes, I hadn't had a good time to work out all the throws and really conceptually "get" them, but 14ºs seem ideal from the back slot, which currently has one instrument (it shoots through a hole in the sound shell).

Seeing now that 36ºs are 6x9s, that seems pretty wide for most of my applications. How do others feel about these? a 6x9 at my theater eats up a big ol' chunk of my stage. For cost reasons, could probably do 36ºs and 50ºs, and not worry about 70ºs, or 90ºs.

Hmm... oh the options!

These don't come with pattern holders, do they?

I'd throw in a dozen pattern holders...


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## gafftaper (Dec 18, 2007)

Wow this thread is moving fast!

Yes get a bid from your local dealer... ALWAY get a bid from your local dealer. Plus I'll give you a couple of tips in P.M. of national dealers who gave us some really good bids for you to consider.

Shipping can easily add a thousand bucks or more depending on the number of instruments ordered. So be very clear you want exact shipping quotes not shipping estimates in your bid. 

Rotators... how often do you use them? How much does it cost to rent one? Not much. Rotators costing $400-800 depending on the model... and don't forget another couple hundred for the power supply and DMX cables. Is it worth it to give up instruments you can use all the time for an expensive product you'll only use once or twice a year? A good friend of mine insists no school should ever buy their own rotators. In his opinion you are paying a lot of money for something you can rent for very little, is fragile and likely to break if not cared for, and you rarely will actually use. With my huge budget I only got two rotators because I tend to agree. If I need more, I'll rent them.


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## gafftaper (Dec 18, 2007)

Also what about some 23-50 zooms for on stage use... gobos etc. They are expensive but cheaper than a S4, and three lenses. A few could come in quite handy.


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## Grog12 (Dec 18, 2007)

charcoaldabs said:


> Okay, point taken on the EA, I'll take the hit on gel. Does it noticeably consume gel faster?
> All dimmers are 2.4kW, the theatre is dimmer-per-circuit. there is a column stage left and stage right, with 3 circuits ground level just off stage, and 2 circuits balcony level, on the other side of the column is about 6-8 more circuits, all in the audience balcony. Then, we have maybe 10 or so circuits scattered backstage. One doesn't work (I think the wiring is bad), and several others are used for the fake 2nd electric. The, we have the 1st Elec, which has 10 circuit itself, 6 used for wash instruments (old cyc lights).
> Pie, the plot is _far_ from done. And I need to learn how to make one first.
> 10º are essentially 6x22ºs, of which we have maybe 8 in the inventory. I like 'em. They're pretty tight. I think realistically 5ºs are not worth it, though I can see using them for some specific ultra tight special or pattern projection. We could definitely do with less of those, though.
> ...


For some reason I've got the number 26' stuck in my head about your space charc, for overstage posistions...is that right? If it is I'd definelty get a 36's and 50's. As straight downlight they'll be in the 10-15' range (depending on barrell) but remember that's on the stage. At 6' above the stage deck, where most people's faces are, they'll be smaller.


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## icewolf08 (Dec 18, 2007)

gafftaper said:


> Also what about some 23-50 zooms for on stage use... gobos etc. They are expensive but cheaper than a S4, and three lenses. A few could come in quite handy.


Did you really suggest zooms for pattern projection? I thought we were friends 

IMO, zooms are just units with more moving parts that can get broken in a high school


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## Lightingguy32 (Dec 18, 2007)

Keep in mind that the Prices of source fours (at ALL dealers) is going up at the end of the year, ETC is hiking prices slightly so now would be the best time to get fixtures. Lime light is a good place to look if you are close to them. They are willing to ship you fully assembled fixtures (with the connector on and the fixture burned in) for the 2007 price while supplies last. I just got the email yesterday from limelight that stated the price of a source four is going to go up. Right now production advantage is also a good place to look for fixtures.


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## gafftaper (Dec 18, 2007)

icewolf08 said:


> Did you really suggest zooms for pattern projection? I thought we were friends
> IMO, zooms are just units with more moving parts that can get broken in a high school



Easy there big fella just suggesting something flexible. It's a high school so once Charc leaves no one will know what a gobo is anyway.


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## Charc (Dec 18, 2007)

Okay, let me see if I can hit all the points.

First, in Modern Art History (I'm taking an art major...) I did some math, of all the instruments I had in the air for _Amadeus_ (not all instruments total) how they were lamped, etc, and I came out with the power consumption of this instruments at full, and the power consumption of the same number of lamps, but 575W.

It broke down to 57,000W and 36,255W. So we have over 20kW of energy savings right there. I've submitted a request to the Business Office for PECO energy bills for our most energy efficient building. I plan to determine the energy draw, and the price per kWh. (Like the energy saved could power this building for 3 hours.)

I'll have to start working in specific instrument count breakdowns too. I need to factor in the price of approximately 80 female connectors as well, to rewire both of our old theaters.

Zooms? Not Wise. Too big, heavy, expensive, and breakable. And my main reason is not to confuse our dept head. She already thinks all of the "Fource Fours" in the air are zooms. I have to remind her that they're 19ºs... I Would love some though... but the bulky and heaviness sorta defeats the point of lighter instruments anyways.

Gaff, PM received, I'll look into it, but I noticed one of the dealers mentioned didn't ship complete instruments. I'd hoped to get gel-frame, safety, lamp, c-clamp, included with the unit. It might breakdown in a package deal, I'll call for details.

I won't be getting 2007 prices, and this is a real pain! Should I specify 2008 prices? Are those in yet? We wouldn't get these instruments until summer.

Rotators, agreed, not worth it. We have one Vortex 360 rotator. That should be enough. Hopefully we won't ever need two.

Grog, yep, 26' or so feet should be the height of the 1st slot over the stage. It might be a little higher, like 28' though.

I'm focusing now on cost breakdowns, images, etc. to attach to the proposal. This still has to beat everyone else out in the school!


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## derekleffew (Dec 18, 2007)

Be carefull about leaning too heavy on the power savings, Charc. I believe STEVETERRY wrote an article recently about a specific instance, (NYCB?), where the savings were not nearly what was imagined, primarily due to the fact that theatre fixtures do not run at full, and seldom for the entire 2-3 hour performance. Of course, you'll be long gone when/if the administration figures this out.


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## SteveB (Dec 18, 2007)

derekleffew said:


> Be carefull about leaning too heavy on the power savings, Charc. I believe STEVETERRY wrote an article recently about a specific instance, (NYCB?), where the savings were not nearly what was imagined, primarily due to the fact that theatre fixtures do not run at full, and seldom for the entire 2-3 hour performance. Of course, you'll be long gone when/if the administration figures this out.



Very true especially when a calculation is made of XX,XXX wattage load currently, versus YY,YYY with 575's ASSUMING it's running 24/7, which no theatrical load - even a movie or TV shoot, ever typically runs. 

Still, any savings can help make a case for either new lamp types, or new fixtures when simply changing lamp types isn't practical or advised given other cost factors, such as very old fixtures costing you in higher maintenance and labor. 

BTW, any link to Steves article ?.

Steve B.


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## derekleffew (Dec 18, 2007)

I can't recall where I read it. STEVETERRY?


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## Charc (Dec 18, 2007)

This is true. Perhaps I'll stress the point less. The reason why I really wanted to stress the point was none of my proposal will make sense to these parents, all very liberal. But if I present big numbers about energy savings... well... that's the real selling point.


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## soundlight (Dec 18, 2007)

charcoaldabs said:


> This is true. Perhaps I'll stress the point less. The reason why I really wanted to stress the point was none of my proposal will make sense to these parents, all very liberal. But if I present big numbers about energy savings... well... that's the real selling point.



After you calculate it, play it up. It works on 'em. This really might be the thing that gets them on board if they're all liberal.


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## Logos (Dec 18, 2007)

What I did once was calculate per hour savings at 80% of load. When the new bills started coming in I turned out to be pretty close.


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## Bob (Dec 18, 2007)

Don't forget about irises!?! Or even smaller circular gobos, they are most likely cheaper than even lens tubes. And can save your butt, when you don't have right focal length left, for that last minute special you need to add...

Another note about prices... ALWAYS over estimate the cost a little, I had an energy proposal take 18 months to work it's way through the red tape, but once it was approved, I got everything that was spec'd including spare lamps.


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## Grog12 (Dec 18, 2007)

Bob said:


> Don't forget about irises!?! Or even smaller circular gobos, they are most likely cheaper than even lens tubes. And can save your butt, when you don't have right focal length left, for that last minute special you need to add...
> Another note about prices... ALWAYS over estimate the cost a little, I had an energy proposal take 18 months to work it's way through the red tape, but once it was approved, I got everything that was spec'd including spare lamps.




***shiver*** And have a dim special!!!!....WOOT!!!!


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## gafftaper (Dec 18, 2007)

charcoaldabs said:


> Gaff, PM received, I'll look into it, but I noticed one of the dealers mentioned didn't ship complete instruments. I'd hoped to get gel-frame, safety, lamp, c-clamp, included with the unit. It might breakdown in a package deal, I'll call for details.



You can get anything you want Charc if you're willing to pay for it. I've got 133 instruments coming. I chose to pay $3.10 per connector and install them myself vs. pay around $10 each to have them installed by the dealer. $917 saved buys a lot. I can teach a student some electrical wiring skills and getting their labor for free. I saved another thousand bucks or so by ordering the the instruments in two pieces and assembling them myself. The company will gladly come do a plot for you and hang the lights. But it'll cost you.


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## Charc (Dec 18, 2007)

gafftaper said:


> You can get anything you want Charc if you're willing to pay for it. I've got 133 instruments coming. I chose to pay $3.10 per connector and install them myself vs. pay around $10 each to have them installed by the dealer. $917 saved buys a lot. I can teach a student some electrical wiring skills and getting their labor for free. I saved another thousand bucks or so by ordering the the instruments in two pieces and assembling them myself. The company will gladly come do a plot for you and hang the lights. But it'll cost you.



Any package I spec will have connectors installed. IMHO, it's the way to go. I've seen the work of the powers above me. It's not better than mine, and we all know mine is &#[email protected] It's worth the money to me knowing that these will have solid electrical connections.


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## lighttechie5948 (Dec 19, 2007)

Scrollers???

They would be better because "it would save time for techs to pick out/order insert gel" - Sales Pitch

DMX Toys?? It really isn't that complicated for someone to understand. One channel for intensity and one for color.


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## gafftaper (Dec 19, 2007)

lighttechie5948 said:


> Scrollers???
> They would be better because "it would save time for techs to pick out/order insert gel" - Sales Pitch
> DMX Toys?? It really isn't that complicated for someone to understand. One channel for intensity and one for color.



Have to completely disagree. Do you realize what it's like out there in a typical high school. The are very few schools that have people who even understand basics like don't touch the lamp with your bare fingers. Lighting design is point all the lights at the stage and turn them on. Program a console is an unknown... I stunned the people at a local high school who were using their Express as a two scene preset. I taught them how to program a submaster and they were AMAZED. They weren't sure why they would ever need to program cues. I'm telling you, the vast majority of high school theater would have no idea what to do with a scroller. 

If you go back a year or so when Charc first found us he had discovered an I-cue in the back of a store room at his school. Someone had purchased a few years ago but it got shoved in a corner because no one knew what it was or how to use. it. No, unless it's a full performing arts center with a real T.D. the school should focus completely on conventionals.


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## Kelite (Dec 20, 2007)

Sorry to be so late to the party! 


<Okay, point taken on the EA, I'll take the hit on Gel. Does it noticeably consume gel faster?>

When gel gets consumed too quickly, remember that you may add a couple _GelMisers_ to the S4 PARs and not worry about changing out the gel every time you turn around.

Just a thought-


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## gafftaper (Dec 20, 2007)

Hey Keith, I only see the small picture of Gel Miser on your home page that loads randomly if you're lucky. Does it have it's own page yet?


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## Kelite (Dec 20, 2007)

gafftaper said:


> Hey Keith, I only see the small picture of Gel Miser on your home page that loads randomly if you're lucky. Does it have it's own page yet?




The _Gel Miser_ will have it's very own page Jan. 1st 

It's been a busy last quarter here at Apollo, with the new website, new catalogs, Gel Kits and the like. Sorry not to have this informational cutsheet immediately available to you. 

Here is a link for those not wishing to refresh the page until it comes up- http://www.internetapollo.com/App_Support/Images/Home/GelMiser.jpg


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## gafftaper (Dec 20, 2007)

Kelite said:


> The _Gel Miser_ will have it's very own page Jan. 1st
> It's been a busy last quarter here at Apollo, with the new website, new catalogs, Gel Kits and the like. Sorry not to have this informational cutsheet immediately available to you.
> Here is a link for those not wishing to refresh the page until it comes up- http://www.internetapollo.com/App_Support/Images/Home/GelMiser.jpg



Thanks Keith... now stop reading the booth and get back to stuffing those boxes!


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## Charc (Mar 10, 2008)

Update:

The proposal was handed to my Dept Head awhile ago, who evidently did nothing with it. However, today she brought up wireless intercoms, and told me to (as per usual) "figure it out". So I called BMI, talked with a sales guy, talked about the Telex 300: 2 base stations, 8 transceivers, 8 headsets, and confirmed they could "sharpen up the price" (When he said that I really wanted to ask if he was using a donut or EDLT .).

So I crunched those numbers last period, handed that in, looking to be about 13,500 to implement such a system... I told her before I did the research that it was gonna come with a price tag, she said perhaps we could sell the rest of the candy left over from the musical and "make it happen"... 

After giving her the numbers she said she was going to run it by the <removed> committee... _this_ afternoon, our one shot at any extra funding for the next 3-5 years.

Lights or intercom? Personally, I think it's moronic to go for the intercom. We won't get it, the people with the money won't care if she just rolls up randomly, without knowing anything, presenting some figures so that we can more effectively communicate. That's in opposition to a well thought out proposal for lighting with clear benefits tailored to the audience that will read them.


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## gafftapegreenia (Mar 10, 2008)

The peeps in charge always like the cool flashy things.


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## Charc (Mar 10, 2008)

gafftapegreenia said:


> The peeps in charge always like the cool flashy things.



What if I write an FX cue? Does it count as cool and flashy then?


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## gafftaper (Mar 11, 2008)

Why wireless? I'm really NOT a fan of wireless. It's so much more expensive and even the best ones have their issues. You also have batteries to deal with... don't want them going dead mid show. In most cases the ASM is the only person who REALLY needs wireless and they can get by with a more reliable signal and no dead batteries by just giving them a longer cord. 

Call your friend at BMI back and ask how much the same system would cost wired. You could use the other half the money for lights. Also I would encourage you to check out Production Intercom. I've got the the BP .15 belt packs, they are awesome metal case, and half the size of the plastic Clear Com packs.


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## SteveB (Mar 11, 2008)

We purchased a Telex / RTS dual channels system about 15 years ago, it's been extraordinarily reliable and very convenient in use. 2 channels over 3 pin audio cable. The belt packs are expensive, but very durable. Only issue we've found is that the headset connection is reversed in it's wiring from Clear-Com typical, as well as being a male connector on the headset cable, vs. female with CC, thus adapters are required if you want to use headsets from a CC system.

The RTS is very common in the TV world, as the belt packs are easily configurable for a lot of different functions. 

Highly recommended

http://www.rtstw.com/product.php?id=9000673821

Steve Bailey
Brooklyn College


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## TimMiller (Mar 11, 2008)

I usually like using wired. Then a couple of wireless units for maily just setup and rehersal, so the electrican can talk to the ld, and the electrican can go running around the building fixing things so the ld can keep on programming. With our company we went with 4 telex units. They seem to go through batteries quickly sometimes. You also have to make sure they dont walk off on you. But for the booth and backstage that should be wired. We occasionally give the stage manager wireless so she or he can go run around and take care of a problem while being on com.


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## Lightingguy32 (Mar 19, 2008)

gafftaper said:


> Have to completely disagree. Do you realize what it's like out there in a typical high school. The are very few schools that have people who even understand basics like don't touch the lamp with your bare fingers. Lighting design is point all the lights at the stage and turn them on. Program a console is an unknown... I stunned the people at a local high school who were using their Express as a two scene preset. I taught them how to program a submaster and they were AMAZED. They weren't sure why they would ever need to program cues. I'm telling you, the vast majority of high school theater would have no idea what to do with a scroller.
> If you go back a year or so when Charc first found us he had discovered an I-cue in the back of a store room at his school. Someone had purchased a few years ago but it got shoved in a corner because no one knew what it was or how to use. it. No, unless it's a full performing arts center with a real T.D. the school should focus completely on conventionals.


Not to be a big fish in a little pond, but gafftaper, I am a high schooler who has known how to program both ETC and Strand lighting desks, focus lights, do designs, and change lamps properly (a matter of fact I am the only one left in my high school tech club with that sort of training) since 7th grade, I started tech theater in 5th


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## icewolf08 (Mar 20, 2008)

Lightingguy32 said:


> Not to be a big fish in a little pond, but gafftaper, I am a high schooler who has known how to program both ETC and Strand lighting desks, focus lights, do designs, and change lamps properly (a matter of fact I am the only one left in my high school tech club with that sort of training) since 7th grade, I started tech theater in 5th


See, but the thing is Lightingguy32, that you just admitted that you are the last one currently with any training. Which is very similar to many HS theatres. Usually tech goes in waves, you have a few years with a good crew, then there is a lull, and then a good crew again. Sometimes that good crew consists of only one person.

While it is really fun for the people who know what they are doing and appreciate having high tech gear to have it, it isn't always the best investment for HS theatre. Sure, updating to new fixtures from 360Qs and 1KLs, Parellipsepheres and such is good, but Gafftaper is right, thing like I-Cues and MLs will sit in a closet until someone who knows what they are stumbles on them.

Many high school theatres, even the ones with students who know what they are doing, don't take the time to keep up with basic maintenance. It usually takes a pyrotechnics show for them to realize that the wiring in a fixture or connector may be bad. Gear collects a lot of dust, and fixtures get cleaned when the principal wants to give a talk in the auditorium and there is just not enough light coming out of them.

I realize that not all high school theatres are like this, and probably most the the high schools represented by CB members don't fall into the extremes of what I have been describing. Everyone wants cool gear, but it is more important in a HS situation to have good working conventional gear.


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## DarSax (Mar 20, 2008)

^ Yes, definitely. ^

If you remember from my incessant ramblings on it a year or so ago, my high school puts on a yearly ridiculousness show with 20+ moving lights, a ridiculous board (hog2, maxxyz, light jockey).

AND YET

In a couple years, it seems that a lot of the tech talent is going to be gone from the school, and they're going to be left with a lot of shoddy equipment and people who won't know how to use the toys. 

It's possible that with high-end DMX equipment, you could encourage students to step up to the plate and learn how to use it, but you can't depend on it. Suddenly, you're left with a $3,000 paperweight and a principal who wants more light and isn't going to get it.


--
Also, the service part is very important. The situation of the lights in my high school is deplorable. I knew that when I was in high school, and wanted to fix it, but simply did not have the time to service them. And if we had owned DMX equipment, that would have doubled, tripled, service time that I already didn't have.


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## Lightingguy32 (Mar 21, 2008)

Well put it this year, ever since I stepped in our high school auditorium, I have spent each year checking the connectors on all fixtures (old ones) and making sure the new ones (all of the older units are inventory, our new ones were put in last year during a "renovation") stay up to par and are benched properly (strain reliefs, electric contacts, socket quality, clean optics... etc).


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## Charc (Mar 21, 2008)

Lightingguy32 said:


> Well put it this year, ever since I stepped in our high school auditorium, I have spent each year checking the connectors on all fixtures (old ones) and making sure the new ones (all of the older units are inventory, our new ones were put in last year during a "renovation") stay up to par and are benched properly (strain reliefs, electric contacts, socket quality, clean optics... etc).



And you have time in the day to do homework?

I get swamped over here.


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## Lightingguy32 (Mar 22, 2008)

yup, have time to do homework.


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