# IFR or Non-IFR Curtains



## seanandkate (Apr 30, 2019)

So, the curtains in our black box space failed the fire test (surprisingly for the first time), and the powers that be offered to replace them. I thought: Outstanding! Finally an opportunity to replace them with IFR curtains. Got a quote from a company I know and trust, and thought that was that. In getting another quote from another company that I don't know as well, they reacted with marginal horror that I was was considering IFR -- that IFR curtains would "attract dirt like a Swiffer." 
What are the downsides to IFR (other than cost) or upside of regular curtains with fireproofing? I thought this was a slam-dunk in favour of the IFR curtains.What am I missing? @BillConnerFASTC ??


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## BillConnerFASTC (Apr 30, 2019)

I don't know. I'm all for IFR. There is still just a tiny bit more sheen but very hard to tell except next to cotton.

Of course less work down the road for the fabricator. I probably don't know the players in CA so can't help on that, but willing to guess the second group generally doesn't like new tech and liked walking 10 miles uphill both to and from school.


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## egilson1 (Apr 30, 2019)

IFR all the way. The difference in look in my opinion is negligible. And ultimately it’s a safety issue for me. People rarely keep up with maintaining the chemical treatment and testing of non-IFR drape.

And I call BS on the IFR drape attracting more dirt. 

Just my $.02

Ethan


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## Scarrgo (Apr 30, 2019)

We replaced all of our legs and borders last year with IFR, I dont notice that they collect any more dust or dirt than the old ones. 

We like them....

A Note* Be aware that some of the IFR material is not as thick, not as much nap as we are used to,and we bought heavy weight

Sean...


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## Tom Andrews (Apr 30, 2019)

If IFR attracts more dust than cotton, it's not a noticeable amount that I've ever seen. If a theater is dusty, all the drapes are dusty, and vice versa. 
If you can buy new curtains, buy IFR. The overall maintenance is far less over time. As noted above, there are as many weaves and thicknesses of IFR as there are in cotton. The good thing these days is that IFR velours can actually look really good, compared to 20 years ago when the only IFR available was Encore (which looks like duvetyn to me). Note that IFR still needs to be tested periodically for flammability. In Canada, it's either every 3 or 5 years, check your local regs, and check the certificate from the mfr for the expiration. Actually, ask them how long the FR warranty is from them before you place the order. Keep the IFR curtains clean (beat them, vacuum them, whatever, periodically) to help maintain the FR. If they fail a flame test, clean the curtains. That'll remove the additional flammable organic matter. Lightweight IFR curtains are more liable to failure than heavier IFR curtains. 
Be sure to donate your old cotton curtains to someplace that needs them.


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## Van (Apr 30, 2019)

The Majority of the Curtains that we manufacture are IFR, if for no other reason than we do a lot of work in California and most local jurisdictions require it. The same holds true for the School districts of several major metropolitan areas across the Western states. While there is something to be said for Cotton, something traditional, I feel the differences are marginal. The biggest issue is color matching Polys can be difficult to match from one dye lot to another. 

As Tom said If Dust is an issue you can whack 'em. Conversely, however, if your curtains are failing a flame ts then cut them up and use them for something else. By passing along failing curtains you are passing along liability. It's the very reason we don't donate used curtains and remove any statement of Flame retardancy from any manufacturer prior to disposal.


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## RickR (Apr 30, 2019)

+1 to all the above.


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## Tom Andrews (Apr 30, 2019)

Yes, definitely say they are non-FR if you donate them! I've seen too many little companies with actual bedsheets they've sewn together for curtains, it'd be sad if you cut them up, especially if they're in decent shape and they just didn't pass the FR test. Most places wouldn't buy new curtains unless they're falling apart. You're very lucky.


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## ruinexplorer (May 1, 2019)

If they are in good condition material-wise, make them into fashionable bags that you can auction off at your next charity.


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## Footer (May 1, 2019)

IFR. Don't do anything thats not IFR. The other place just wants to get all the $$$ to re-coat them every 5 years.


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## AudJ (May 2, 2019)

Either way, curtains will collect dust. IFR for me please.


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## BillConnerFASTC (May 2, 2019)

No dissent? Did we step through the looking glass? Like a Star Trek alternate universe.


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## seanandkate (May 2, 2019)

Thanks all. I didn't think I was going crazy, but it's nice to have confirmation. There's probably a dossier someplace else proving the contrary, but at least this decision won't be part of the paper trail.


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## Van (May 2, 2019)

All that being Said, Both JB Martin and KM make incredible Cotton Velour fabrics.


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## NickVon (May 2, 2019)

+1 IFR


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## MNicolai (May 2, 2019)

Only "truthiness" to that rumor is that if you never beat the dust out of your curtains, indeed IFR is not infallible and contaminants can compromise the fabric's ability to pass a flame test but that's no different than if you get a bunch of dust collecting on FR fabric.

Seems like it's possible someone had a bad experience at a particular venue that swapped to IFR and carried that with them. That could be a result of poor HVAC circulation/filtration, dust collection, or general lack of separation of curtains from scene shop carpentry.

In an unrelated vein, a venue my buddy works in has a faux fire curtain. No smoke pockets, the fire curtain is unnecessary because while they exceed 50' to deck, they already have a deluge system in place. The braile system wasn't balanced properly at first and inexplicably deployed itself a couple times for no particular reason and the installer dig some voodoo on it but there's no chance it would be effective in a realm fire. 10 years after opening, he texted me a few weeks ago that all of the curtains in the venue passed flame testing except the fire curtain. Now he's preparing for a conversation with AHJ to tear it out rather than own the cost of replacing it.


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## BillConnerFASTC (May 3, 2019)

You don't think his faux fire curtain was part of a drencher or soaker system, developed for the McCormick place theater and allowed by code for a decade or two? Required a "regular" curtain which would close automatically and a sprinkler system that was not really a deluge system - less water and designed to wet the curtain - often just the house curtain.

I'm replacing one now - making curtain just a normal main and replacing soaker system with a full deluge water curtain.


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## seanandkate (May 3, 2019)

Here's an interesting article that also throws a wrinkle into the argument...


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## Tom Andrews (May 3, 2019)

MNicolai said:


> Only "truthiness" to that rumor .



Which 'rumor'?


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## Tom Andrews (May 3, 2019)

seanandkate said:


> Here's an interesting article that also throws a wrinkle into the argument...


Most of us who do testing and treatment professionally know to take samples of synthetics that are at least 1.5" wide, preferably 2" wide. A group of us did our own comparative testing with IFR fabrics with 701 test reports to find a sample size for 705 to provide fairly consistent results to match the 701 lab test. Some of us who do both the lab testing and field testing also have the opportunity to do these comparisons.


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## Tom Andrews (May 3, 2019)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> No dissent? Did we step through the looking glass? Like a Star Trek alternate universe.


I don't think we can say the IFR is always better than cotton. It really depends on usage, staffing, both short term and long term budget, and ability to properly maintain them. 

As a separate backlash to IFR, in high end commercial venues we're seeing a resurgence in natural-based fabrics and designers moving away from synthetics, mostly in regard to 'sustainability'. I've seen more hemp-based fabrics too.


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## MNicolai (May 3, 2019)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> You don't think his faux fire curtain was part of a drencher or soaker system, developed for the McCormick place theater and allowed by code for a decade or two? Required a "regular" curtain which would close automatically and a sprinkler system that was not really a deluge system - less water and designed to wet the curtain - often just the house curtain.
> 
> I'm replacing one now - making curtain just a normal main and replacing soaker system with a full deluge water curtain.



Full deluge. Looks like the curtain spec was developed assuming or ignoring that the deluge system was going in and certain elements of it were seemingly compromised on when the contractor discovered it wasn't required for code. It was an all-around subpar installation. Unbalanced and triggered a couple times for no apparent reason. Tension lines kept getting snagged on steel connection hardware on the face of the tilt-up panels. To crank it back up you had to dismantle a rope lock from the arbor to get to the crank-side of the braile winch.

3-4 years after opening an independent rigging contractor was brought in to assess the entire venue and produced a 13-page report of deficiencies...


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## BillConnerFASTC (May 3, 2019)

seanandkate said:


> Here's an interesting article that also throws a wrinkle into the argument...



Just a few snips from NFPA 705 of interest:




and




In my opinion, most of 705 is about not starting a building fire or getting injured while doing the test that proves very little.


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## Lextech (May 3, 2019)

IFR, if they get dusty give them shake.


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## venuetech (May 5, 2019)

IFR Installed ten years ago and still going strong without issues. Dust? The whole dam theatre is a dust magnet, I have dust bunny kick line numbers in some shows.


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## Joshua Schoeneck (May 6, 2019)

+1 for IFR. We've never noticed additional dust collected on ours.


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## Protech (May 6, 2019)

Footer said:


> IFR. Don't do anything thats not IFR. The other place just wants to get all the $$$ to re-coat them every 5 years.



In my experience its the opposite. With the dominance of IFR in the market its now difficult to find someone to respray them. 

IFR has been industry standard for quite some time. We no longer quote non IFR unless specifically requested.


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