# Las Vegas - Mandalay Bay Shooting



## ruinexplorer

I'm sure you will all be hearing about this soon. 

http://www.cnn.com/2017/10/02/us/las-vegas-shooter/index.html

I for one am safe. Our hotel was in lockdown before our show ended.


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## dvsDave

Gizmodo has an in depth article being live updated 

http://gizmo.do/nbHdWME


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## Ancient Engineer

My LV peeps are good as well. Thoughts and condolences to those injured or lost.


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## gafftaper

@ruinexplorer I'm glad to hear you are ok. I figured you were at work and it's a long way from where the action is, but it's still too close. Although I assume the rest of our Vegas friends are okay based on where they work and things, I look forward to reading that everyone's okay here. 

With so many shots fired (may apparently fired at the stage area) and so many injured it seems likely that we had some brothers or sisters in the industry who were injured.


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## Van

Our lighting tech is in LV on a freelance gig. He checked in and is ok. Another friend, who is a carp at O checked in and is ok. My bosses family is in Vegas and, thank goodness they have all checked in OK.


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## derekleffew

All okay at my household.

gafftaper said:


> With so many shots fired (may apparently fired at the stage area) and so many injured it seems likely that we had some brothers or sisters in the industry who were injured.


Facebook reports that one IA Local 33 (LA) member was injured. Not sure why there were five 33 members working the event, as it's a non-union venue.


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## Amiers

Glad to hear you are safe bro.


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## gafftaper

@derekleffew Glad to hear all is well at Casa Leffew. 

@porkchop are you and your loved ones okay?


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## JohnD

Interesting that it is being reported that the automatic weapon fire set off the smoke alarm in his room, alerting the police.


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## TimMc

derekleffew said:


> All okay at my household.
> Facebook reports that one IA Local 33 (LA) member was injured. Not sure why there were five 33 members working the event, as it's a non-union venue.



Could have been on a film/video crew or maybe was with the staging company...


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## ruinexplorer

It might be good for everyone to review their active shooter plans. I am including the article from last summer's Protocol.


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## derekleffew

gafftaper said:


> With so many shots fired (may apparently fired at the stage area)


Just saw on the local news a plan view of the area. The Mandalay Bay hotel tower is behind and across the strip from the stage. The shooter was firing from extreme USL into the crowd.




The stage faces the Tropicana (north, top). Luxor is directly west (left in the above photo) of the festival grounds. Mandalay Bay is in the lower left corner, south of the Luxor.

Too soon:
"Heck of a way to express you're _[sic]_ hated of country music."
"This wouldn't have happened if MGM hadn't started charging for parking."
"Deadliest mass shooting in U.S. History (sorry Wounded Knee, Indians don't count)."


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## gafftaper

@derekleffew is that the unfinished giant wheel in the center at the bottom of the picture?


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## porkchop

gafftaper said:


> @derekleffew is that the unfinished giant wheel in the center at the bottom of the picture?


Yes it is


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## derekleffew

gafftaper said:


> is that the unfinished giant wheel in the center at the bottom of the picture?


Yes it is. Two ~100' ? sticks.

Update: All Las Vegas Cirque du Soleil performances cancelled for Monday, 10/02/17. Refunds available at point of purchase.


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## gafftaper

derekleffew said:


> Yes it is. Two ~100' ? sticks. Update: All Las Vegas Cirque du Soleil performances cancelled for Monday, 10/02/17. Refunds available at point of purchase.



Good. I doubt many people are in the mood/state of mind to perform. I know I'm having a hard time getting anything done today and I'm 1,000 miles away. 


I think this is the same lot they film American Ninja Warrior on.


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## gafftaper

I did some Google Street View research and was able to come up with an angle that shows the situation really clearly. Here's a link. 

Photos on the news show the shooter's room was one of the last rooms to the right and therefore closest to the stage.


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## gafftapegreenia

derekleffew said:


> All okay at my household.
> Facebook reports that one IA Local 33 (LA) member was injured. Not sure why there were five 33 members working the event, as it's a non-union venue.



Maybe they're not getting enough work from the local to pay rent? Are they cardholders yet?


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## gafftaper

I don't know about you but I've found the media coverage really disjointed and at times difficult to just get the latest details. Our old friend Jim On Light has been doing a nice job of keeping all the information organized and updated in one place. You can check out his coverage here... then come back here to CB to discuss it .

It's been a hard day to focus and get work done. I'm happy all my CB buddies down there are okay. Looking forward to seeing you all at LDI. But it's so upsetting to deal with the idea that we work our whole lives to provide entertainment and joy to the audience and some psychopath can come along in a second and destroy it all. Turning a place of happiness into terror. Worst of all we can't control where it will happen next and there's very little we can do if it does happen. So I'm stuck teaching my high school tech kids what I want them to do if there is a shooting in the theater. We didn't talk about that when I was a high school tech. 

I'm so tired of explaining to my middle school boys the latest horrible thing that has happened in the news.


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## Footer

Two of my now married HS friends are both based there. Luckily he was out on the road... and she is in her residency in emergency medicine at University Medical Center in Vegas. She was finally able to post later today and has basically been working ever since this happened.

So, with that... I think it it totally possible to say that post 9/11 more people have been killed or injured attending concerts or other mass gatherings then have been killed by acts of terror in the skys. So, why are we paying 7.5 billion for TSA and leaving venue security up to the promoters whims and some 22 year kid in a security shirt?


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## ship

SOP I hope coming in training for all in the center of the audience controlling the show. I hear a sound person probably at this location took over over stage monitors thru TV coverage. That's a really good initial thing to do in getting the talent off stage.

I hear stage lights and area lights came up to full at some point not specified. That could be a good or bad thing also as with going black in lighting also a bad thing.

The people in the tent at the center audience control of the show I would doubt run and wouldn't run as opposed to doing their job and most worried for in staying at their position and dowing their job. I think need a SOP as to what to do. Turn off the lights, and the audience is in the dark. Put the lights on at full, it better lights up the situation to get the audience out.

This is I think some debate and training thing to work on for SOP. That the sound person while under fire told the talet to get off stage, was a fairly brave person to do so as opposed to running out of the expected center location in the audience.


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## Van

Footer said:


> Two of my now married HS friends are both based there. Luckily he was out on the road... and she is in her residency in emergency medicine at University Medical Center in Vegas. She was finally able to post later today and has basically been working ever since this happened.
> 
> So, with that... I think it it totally possible to say that post 9/11 more people have been killed or injured attending concerts or other mass gatherings then have been killed by acts of terror in the skys. So, why are we paying 7.5 billion for TSA and leaving venue security up to the promoters whims and some 22 year kid in a security shirt?


In what way would highly trained Venue security personnel have been able to prevent or limit the damage done by a shooter who was across the street and several floors up firing indiscriminately into a crowd? Shall we encase every outdoor venue in a Poly carbonate dome? How bout we give all the rent-a-cops grenades and riot guns? 
I agree Venue security needs to be more than a high school drop out with a t-shirt, so they can deal with actual security events, but as far as How can we deal with this? I Think as Production Professionals all we CAN do is follow the advice of so many out there, "If you see something say something". Venue and Production companies need to stress that in an active shooter situation the backstage and venue personnel are literally the first line of defense. There needs to be, and it needs to be gone over with everyone in the venue, evacuation plans, emergency response chains of command (when I see something where/whom do I go to?) I don't think making the 'Ultimate sacrifice' needs to be a part of a stagehands job description but I am reminded of the Iraqi who literally hugged a suicide bomber confining the blast and helping save hundreds during an attack on a Mosque, and the guy who approached the bomber at the London concert who also sheilded many from the blast.
It's stupid/heartbreaking/infuriating/dumbfounding that we have to have these conversations.


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## sk8rsdad

The sort of training that would be generally useful for the security team at large events is crowd management. That's the job for any other disturbance that panics the audience. There's no expectation that the security team would stand in front of an oncoming tornado so there should be no expectation that they would engage a terrorist. There's a reasonable expectation that a coordinated evacuation or shelter in place action could reduce harm.

The rest of the production team should be trained to do whatever is the most accepted response to minimize the audience causing even more harm to each other. In most cases that probably involves turning down the distractions and turning up the "house" lights, but will defer to the experts in crowd management.

I share @Van's sentiments about these conversations.


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## Aaron Clarke

gafftaper said:


> I don't know about you but I've found the media coverage really disjointed and at times difficult to just get the latest details.



I was just discussing this yesterday. Sadly most media tends to report just what ever speculation anyone will say in front of a camera and call themselves an "expert". I get it, how else do you fill the multitude of 24/7 news channels with content while the real experts actually conduct an investigation. I was really sadden to see that NPR has resorted to having to place a disclaimer explaining what real news is versus what most the outlets provide:

_"This is a developing story. Some things that get reported by the media will later turn out to be wrong. We will focus on reports from police officials and other authorities, credible news outlets and reporters who are at the scene."_

Of course, I'm happy to see that the forum members, families and families in sprit are safe and sound as hope we hear no news otherwise. Thoughts and prayers to all this affected and I really hope there is a day we don't have to try and explain these types of events to little kids.


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## gafftaper

Footer said:


> So, with that... I think it it totally possible to say that post 9/11 more people have been killed or injured attending concerts or other mass gatherings then have been killed by acts of terror in the skys. So, why are we paying 7.5 billion for TSA and leaving venue security up to the promoters whims and some 22 year kid in a security shirt?



On 9/10 no one thought a box cutter was a danger on an airplane. Today we think differently and security has changed. 

Last week we didn't think holding an event 400 yards from a tall hotel was a danger. Today we have to start thinking differently and change venue security. That said, without the US Military's best Sniper on hand to return fire (with a really lucky shot) there wasn't much we could have done to stop this. Do we need better hotel security? Acrylic shields over outdoor venues? Move outdoor events away from tall buildings? There are a LOT of questions and no good answers yet. We definitely need to start rethinking these things and stop leaving venue security up to promoters and kids in yellow T-shirts.


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## Footer

gafftaper said:


> On 9/10 no one thought a box cutter was a danger on an airplane. Today we think differently and security has changed.
> 
> Last week we didn't think holding an event 400 yards from a tall hotel was a danger. Today we have to start thinking differently and change venue security. That said, without the US Military's best Sniper on hand to return fire (with a really lucky shot) there wasn't much we could have done to stop this. Do we need better hotel security? Acrylic shields over outdoor venues? Move outdoor events away from tall buildings? There are a LOT of questions and no good answers yet. We definitely need to start rethinking these things and stop leaving venue security up to promoters and kids in yellow T-shirts.



Yes, but how many of these do we have to do to actually change the industry? We've had this, Pulse, movie theatre shootings, Bataclan, etc. We did a ton as a country to change after 9/11 to ensure that would never happen again... and it worked. Its cost a ton and we gave up a lot of rights in the process. I know I'm going to cross over in to the gun debate here, but that is what it is. 

We run fire drills. We have firecurtains. We flame proof everything. What was the last theatre fire you know about? Station fire happened, pyro gets banned in almost every venue in the country outside of the very large scale shows. The industry changed. Indianan happens. Overnight every truss stage is getting inspected and most get thrown out in favor of trucked stages. Once again, the industry changed. We are ignoring this as both a country and as an industry. How many venues have ran active shooter drills? How many venues have a real plan on the books? How many festivals plan for it? 

I'm not saying any of this could have prevented this... but who knows. Its a rather shitty situation that everyone is just ignoring and hoping will go away. More people are getting killed attending shows/movies/clubs by a mass murderer than fire. Maybe you don't have a festival next to a tall building. Maybe just like getting scanned at the airport that is what we lose as a society due to this.


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## Footer

Van said:


> In what way would highly trained Venue security personnel have been able to prevent or limit the damage done by a shooter who was across the street and several floors up firing indiscriminately into a crowd? Shall we encase every outdoor venue in a Poly carbonate dome? How bout we give all the rent-a-cops grenades and riot guns?



Nothing. Only thing that could have stopped this is if someone during pre-production would have brought up the risk of doing this show near a high rise with windows that can open. Thats about it... and that guy would have gotten laughed out of the room.


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## techieman33

Footer said:


> Yes, but how many of these do we have to do to actually change the industry? We've had this, Pulse, movie theatre shootings, Bataclan, etc. We did a ton as a country to change after 9/11 to ensure that would never happen again... and it worked. Its cost a ton and we gave up a lot of rights in the process. I know I'm going to cross over in to the gun debate here, but that is what it is.



At best it stopped that one method of attack. But for all the billions of dollars that have been spent, and the rights that have been taken from us it still doesn't work. You constantly hear stories about people getting through with knives and other weapons. IMO it's more security theater than it is real security. All this "protection" for commerical airliners, but the the private side is still largely security free. Instead of a 747 a terrorist could just as easily load up a private plane with explosives or flammables and accomplish the same thing. Look at all the money and effort that goes into protecting the President. Sure it works for the most part, but even that isn't 100% effective. At the end of the day if someone wants to kill people and they're willing to die in the process there isn't a whole lot we can do to stop them. If we lock down concert venues they'll just find a different place to attack.


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## StradivariusBone

Footer said:


> Its cost a ton and we gave up a lot of rights in the process. I know I'm going to cross over in to the gun debate here, but that is what it is.



I hate that I feel this way and maybe it's a sign that I've turned too jaded, but if someone murdering 20 kids didn't spark a national outrage that resulted in serious change then I don't see this event changing much of anything. I've got a first grader and everything about this makes my stomach turn. And I'll be the first to admit, I have no freaking idea what a solution looks like, but it now seems that every time this sort of thing happens the same tired arguments and frustration are drug out and dusted off for as long as the news cycle lasts. 

I don't think taking guns away is the problem-solver many people think it will be, but like so many other multifaceted problems of this world it gets boiled down into some inane two-party issue which effectively stalemates any rational debate or solution-seeking. And with things like the Station and the Iroquois there wasn't as much of a cultural hurdle to broach. There's no constitutional stance on using pyro in a venue or chaining emergency exits closed to derail legislation on those issues. What I don't get- Congress allows the CDC to research pretty much everything else that kills Americans except for guns. We don't even have a reasonable understanding of what gets a person to the point where they think it's alright to mow down a bunch of strangers with a firearm, much less how to get them help prior to the point. That, at least to me, is a logical place to start troubleshooting.


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## Footer

StradivariusBone said:


> I hate that I feel this way and maybe it's a sign that I've turned too jaded, but if someone murdering 20 kids didn't spark a national outrage that resulted in serious change then I don't see this event changing much of anything. I've got a first grader and everything about this makes my stomach turn. And I'll be the first to admit, I have no freaking idea what a solution looks like, but it now seems that every time this sort of thing happens the same tired arguments and frustration are drug out and dusted off for as long as the news cycle lasts.
> 
> I don't think taking guns away is the problem-solver many people think it will be, but like so many other multifaceted problems of this world it gets boiled down into some inane two-party issue which effectively stalemates any rational debate or solution-seeking. And with things like the Station and the Iroquois there wasn't as much of a cultural hurdle to broach. There's no constitutional stance on using pyro in a venue or chaining emergency exits closed to derail legislation on those issues. What I don't get- Congress allows the CDC to research pretty much everything else that kills Americans except for guns. We don't even have a reasonable understanding of what gets a person to the point where they think it's alright to mow down a bunch of strangers with a firearm, much less how to get them help prior to the point. That, at least to me, is a logical place to start troubleshooting.



That is the issue in a nutshell. You need mental healthcare. You need to get these huge capacity clips and assault rifles off the streets (New York State already did this.... and people are still complaining). You need vigilance. You need education. You need drug rehab. You need to pretty much fix society as a whole. My wife has a family member who was killed at Columbine... they are still dumbfounded that they have to deal with this crap. Her uncle fought hard to get some type of legislation passed and was basically ignored....

The strange thing is that you go to Columbine today and you don't see the door numbers and classroom numbers on the outside of the building like you do in the community I live in. The security cameras are there... but there are no metal detectors or other barriers. So, what other communities did to prevent such things they decided not to do. 

I don't think there is really anything that can be done on our side of the world. I also don't think I want to work in a place that thinks it is going to be attacked at any time. I'd rather leave the business and setup a 3d printing shop in the woods. If someone has no regard left for their own life it is pretty much impossible to stop them before an attack. 

What we can do is prepare for it. Get a risk assessment of your building. Get law enforcement in so they know how to working in your building. Have staff procedures in place and drill often.

It all really comes down to do we want to lose freedoms to try to prevent this or do we want to just call this the new normal and go from there.


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## StradivariusBone

Footer said:


> The strange thing is that you go to Columbine today and you don't see the door numbers and classroom numbers on the outside of the building like you do in the community I live in. The security cameras are there... but there are no metal detectors or other barriers. So, what other communities did to prevent such things they decided not to do.



This hits on another issue of the knee-jerk reaction these types of things tend to have. A few years back people got worked up over sudden cardiac deaths in public and started pushing for auto-defibs to be made available in places like schools and venues. So a big push is made to buy these really expensive battery packs and heart monitors and install them all over the place. Problem solved? 

After dealing with an experience first-hand where an auto-defibrillator would have been helpful had one been present I educated myself and learned that many of these things are installed and never maintained and so the batteries in them no longer work in an emergency that might happen 3 or 4 years after it was purchased. The knee-jerk reaction is to get it installed, but there's almost never a maintenance plan with these type of fixes. Or if there is one, it's only followed until enough people move on or retire and then it's forgotten until the next crisis. 

Same goes with security. A locked gate is only secure until people forget their keys enough times and start propping it open. As a maintainer of things (like I suspect many of you are too) this climate of "hurry up and fix it!" drives me bat**** crazy. There is nothing on this Earth that I've found that will work forever without some salty tech hitting it with WD40 or a c-wrench from time to time, in a manner of speaking.


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## BillConnerFASTC

One researcher claims an incident like this every 6 1/2 weeks since before 1980. I do think the instant reporting and social media make it different.


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## Footer

StradivariusBone said:


> This hits on another issue of the knee-jerk reaction these types of things tend to have. A few years back people got worked up over sudden cardiac deaths in public and started pushing for auto-defibs to be made available in places like schools and venues. So a big push is made to buy these really expensive battery packs and heart monitors and install them all over the place. Problem solved?
> 
> After dealing with an experience first-hand where an auto-defibrillator would have been helpful had one been present I educated myself and learned that many of these things are installed and never maintained and so the batteries in them no longer work in an emergency that might happen 3 or 4 years after it was purchased. The knee-jerk reaction is to get it installed, but there's almost never a maintenance plan with these type of fixes. Or if there is one, it's only followed until enough people move on or retire and then it's forgotten until the next crisis.
> 
> Same goes with security. A locked gate is only secure until people forget their keys enough times and start propping it open. As a maintainer of things (like I suspect many of you are too) this climate of "hurry up and fix it!" drives me bat**** crazy. There is nothing on this Earth that I've found that will work forever without some salty tech hitting it with WD40 or a c-wrench from time to time, in a manner of speaking.



We have the AED's all over our building. I have one in each theatre lobby and one at our loading dock. We also staff an EMT during shows. All of my crew heads and house managers are trained on them and get renewed every other year. They actually get inspected by the same person who inspects emergency lighting, exit signs, and fire extinguishers. It can be done but there has to be procedures put in place to keep it going. We also pay a company to keep our first aid kits stocked and keep oxygen on hand. Systems are not cheap. But... we probably send at least 10-20 patrons a year away in an ambulance. We have pulled and used an AED a few times. 

BTW, if you have never worked in a place with stocked first aid kits it is pretty amazing. We use Cintas to do ours. Literally the kits have everything you would ever want, including headache medicine, good tweezers, and all the dings and scratch repair imaginable.


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## bclighting

BillConnerFASTC said:


> One researcher claims an incident like this every 6 1/2 weeks since before 1980. I do think the instant reporting and social media make it different.



I agree completely and wholeheartedly! 

To add to that, why does the media feel the need to further glorify the perpetrator by repeatedly showing their picture? This just dumbfounds me, they should never show the picture again and if they do it should be censored to show that those that do this type of thing are not deserving of the attention.


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## techieman33

bclighting said:


> I agree completely and wholeheartedly!
> 
> To add to that, why does the media feel the need to further glorify the perpetrator by repeatedly showing their picture? This just dumbfounds me, they should never show the picture again and if they do it should be censored to show that those that do this type of thing are not deserving of the attention.



Because the only thing they really care about is ratings. Creating panic and sensationalizing the news is good for their bottom line. With 24 hour news and thousands of competing websites they'll do whatever it takes to attract readers and viewers. 30 years ago this would have been a couple minutes on the news and a couple of newspaper articles. Now they have to do whatever they can to stretch it out as long as possible while waiting for the next new crisis.


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## gafftapegreenia

techieman33 said:


> Because the only thing they really care about is ratings. Creating panic and sensationalizing the news is good for their bottom line. With 24 hour news and thousands of competing websites they'll do whatever it takes to attract readers and viewers. 30 years ago this would have been a couple minutes on the news and a couple of newspaper articles. Now they have to do whatever they can to stretch it out as long as possible while waiting for the next new crisis.



I think that even in the 1980s that 550+ people getting shot by one guy might have gotten a bit more than a few minutes on the local nightly news. Medical tech of the day means that likely more people would have died. Heck, even Reagan would have had to have done something more than offer a few thoughts and prayers.

The 24 hour cable news cycle has certainly sensationalized trivial events, but I wouldn't go so far as to suggest that the "mainstream media" has invented a national crisis for their own benefits.


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## TheaterEd

If you haven't seen Jim Jeffries' bit on gun control in America vs Gun control in Austrailia, it's worth your time.

Warning, very NSFW Language. Part 1 Part 2


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## Protech

Thankfully no one in the immediate Protech family was harmed, though we all have multiple friends of friends and extended family that have been impacted by this utterly senseless tragedy. These things really are surreal when it happens in your back yard...

Our hearts and warmest wishes go out to victims and their families. I still can't wrap my head around this...


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## JohnD

I do have to point out that there is more to this than gun control, remember the Oklahoma City Bombing. Evil is evil and crazy is crazy.


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## TimMc

JohnD said:


> I do have to point out that there is more to this than gun control, remember the Oklahoma City Bombing. Evil is evil and crazy is crazy.



The LV shooter also had ammonium nitrate and tannerite. It appears he wasn't limiting himself to his arsenal of firearms.


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## JD

JohnD said:


> I do have to point out that there is more to this than gun control, remember the Oklahoma City Bombing. Evil is evil and crazy is crazy.


Yes, in Paris it was a simple truck that was turned into a weapon of mass killing. On 911, box-cutters were used to kill 3000. Evil has a way of finding a method. This guy was obsessive in his planning, he would used whatever tool worked. Every time we think we have an answer, evil finds a way around it.


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## Van

I for one do NOT want to see this devolve into a "gun freaks Vs. anti-gun Freaks" screaming match. However I feel it needs to be crystal clear to everyone: 
The guy in Vegas did NOT use a truck. He used Firearms, he used legally-modified firearms, he didn't use a box cutter, he didn't use a truck, he didn't use Sarin Gas, he didn't use Anthrax. He used Firearms, Suppressors, Bump-stocks and was prepared to do even more with easily obtainable/create-able explosives. No, You will never stop crazy from doing crazy.


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## Footer

JohnD said:


> I do have to point out that there is more to this than gun control, remember the Oklahoma City Bombing. Evil is evil and crazy is crazy.



And after that attack streets were closed near high profile targets. Jersey barriers went up everywhere. Additionally they made it nearly impossible to buy that level of fertilizer without the proper paperwork.


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## gafftapegreenia

Footer said:


> And after that attack streets were closed near high profile targets. Jersey barriers went up everywhere. Additionally they made it nearly impossible to buy that level of fertilizer without the proper paperwork.



Exactly.


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## ruinexplorer

JD said:


> On 911, box-cutters were used to kill 3000. Evil has a way of finding a method. This guy was obsessive in his planning, he would used whatever tool worked. Every time we think we have an answer, evil finds a way around it.


On 9/11, airplanes were used to kill, not box cutters. Box cutters were used to take over those planes. There was no resistance due to policies set in place for hostage takeovers. If those policies were not in place, it could have been different. And, to top it off, it isn't just the passengers who met changes after that, but the crews as well. This is why we need reasonable discussions, not just pro-gun or the thought of anti-gun. Over and over, the public cries out for changes, but lobbying money and misinformation kill it every time. 

Since change is unlikely to happen to limit guns/ammo from these type of people, it is on us as a community to figure means to cope with it. We already have pretty ample security keeping the crap out of the events, but are these policies really effective? We need to make sure that we provide means of crowd control (keeping them in and safe or providing ample means of exit).


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## gafftaper

Although I agree with many of the feelings expressed, I don't think this is the place to have a gun debate. Contact your representatives and tell them how you feel. Support organizations that represent you and lobby for what you believe. Get involved and don't let this fade from memory without doing anything. I truly believe if enough people get involved (and we force the traditional powers that be to work together instead of just yelling past each other) we can find ways to make ourselves safer and keep the 2nd amendment.

Until there is or isn't change, let's make CB the place where we keep theater's safe.

I started a discussion HERE in the Stage Management and Facility Operations forum to discuss what you are doing to re-evaluate and make your theater safer in an active shooter situation. Let's share ideas and support each other.


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## FMEng

NPR did a thoughtful story on concert security.
http://www.npr.org/sections/thereco...ity-experts-grapple-with-lessons-of-las-vegas

I'm no expert, but I could argue that lighting up the scene might have aided the shooter. Marking the exits seems like a good idea, as does instructions to the crowd. Codes require plentiful, marked exits indoors. It seems like that should be the case in outdoor venues too.


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## BillConnerFASTC

FMEng said:


> NPR did a thoughtful story on concert security.
> http://www.npr.org/sections/thereco...ity-experts-grapple-with-lessons-of-las-vegas
> 
> I'm no expert, but I could argue that lighting up the scene might have aided the shooter. Marking the exits seems like a good idea, as does instructions to the crowd. Codes require plentiful, marked exits indoors. It seems like that should be the case in outdoor venues too.



I do not believe outdoor assembly occupancies are exempt from marking means of egress. Like you, I suspect a number of building officials and authorities having jurisdiction might not realize that. On the other hand, I'm not sure an empty lot ever has plans to be reviewed for a permit. So, the gap is perhaps for the "unbuilt" facilities - those where people just assemble around temporary stages, RVs, and portapotties. Like the warehouse fire in Oakland - codes don't work so well when owners try to hide what they are doing. Building officials are not really law enforcement officers but maybe they should be - with training and small arms - they could go out and hunt for people trying to break the law. (I don't really think we should arm our building officials but its an option.)


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## Tom Andrews

In New York City, at least, outdoor events in empty lots or parking lots need to apply for and receive permits. Everything for an indoor event applies, plus more such as fire truck and ambulance access, egress, capacity per 'area' dependent on enclosures like fencing, etc. The codes and requirements are there, and I agree there should be more enforcement.


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## BillConnerFASTC

Building permits and permits for an event are pretty different. Buildings gave registered design professionals involved with planning. Im not sure a concert on a vacant lot does.


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## Footer

BillConnerFASTC said:


> Building permits and permits for an event are pretty different. Buildings gave registered design professionals involved with planning. Im not sure a concert on a vacant lot does.



They do around here. Anytime you are setting up an area of assembly that involves gated access our AHJ looks at it the same way as a confined building.


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## ruinexplorer

As that lot is used on a regular basis, I have no doubt that it has well defined means of egress. However, when someone is shooting at you, that changes things quite a bit. 

The decision to throw on lights to help get people out was in my opinion the right thing to do. It isn't just the exits that need to be lit in these circumstances, but everything that might be in the way to them (dropped items, those caring for the wounded, etc.). These are things that need to be considered when coming up with a plan. Assume that some of the regular means of egress will no longer be accessible and make sure that there is direction to alternate exits and have a means of directing people to them as the audience needs to know before heading for the wrong exit.


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## FMEng

ruinexplorer said:


> The decision to throw on lights to help get people out was in my opinion the right thing to do. It isn't just the exits that need to be lit in these circumstances, but everything that might be in the way to them (dropped items, those caring for the wounded, etc.). These are things that need to be considered when coming up with a plan. Assume that some of the regular means of egress will no longer be accessible and make sure that there is direction to alternate exits and have a means of directing people to them as the audience needs to know before heading for the wrong exit.



According to the expert quoted in the NPR story, the lights were off after the band flees the stage. No instructions were given to the crowd.


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