# Curious . . What brand gel and what does it cost?



## BillESC (Aug 25, 2007)

I'm interested in what brands of gel you all use and what your current cost is.

Thanks for the help.


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## icewolf08 (Aug 26, 2007)

*Re: Curious . . What grand gel and what does it cost?*

I don't remember what I am currently paying for gel, though I know there are slight variations between manufacturers. Mostly in the $5-$6 range. We use whatever the designer specs.


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## gafftaper (Aug 26, 2007)

*Re: Curious . . What grand gel and what does it cost?*

I generally only buy Roscolux. The two sheets of plastic with the color baked in the middle seems to make it more durable to me (sorry Keith... I do like your gobos better). Current price locally is $5.79 a sheet.


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## Footer (Aug 26, 2007)

*Re: Curious . . What grand gel and what does it cost?*

Usually 5-6ish, depending. If I need something quick and have to get it local its usually a bit more then going through a large vendor.


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## sound_nerd (Aug 26, 2007)

*Re: Curious . . What grand gel and what does it cost?*

Yeah, in the $8 CDN range for a sheet, I go with Rosco or Lee depending on the colour, although I like Lee far more for durability and saturation.


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## Logos (Aug 26, 2007)

*Re: Curious . . What grand gel and what does it cost?*

I use Lee and I pay $A11.50 for a sheet but I live in Australia so that information is no use to you at all.
_(He sniggers quietly and sneaks away.) _


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## gafftaper (Aug 26, 2007)

*Re: Curious . . What grand gel and what does it cost?*


Logos said:


> I use Lee and I pay $A11.50 for a sheet but I live in Australia so that information is no use to you at all.
> _(He sniggers quietly and sneaks away.) _




Maybe Bill's thinking about opening a branch office in OZ.


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## Timmyp (Aug 26, 2007)

*Re: Curious . . What grand gel and what does it cost?*

I'm paying about £4 a sheet, I don't know how the dollar's feeling at the moment, but that's probably around $7-8.

For a roll I'm looking at about £60.

Do you buy in Rolls and Sheets in the US? 

I've only ever bought one Roll. And that was L103 (straw) and it was shared between three local Am-Dram groups!

I usually buy Lee HT.


Tim


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## Grog12 (Aug 26, 2007)

*Re: Curious . . What grand gel and what does it cost?*

We have everything available from the big 4 (R,L,G,A) runs in the 5-6ish range a sheet.


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## Footer (Aug 26, 2007)

*Re: Curious . . What grand gel and what does it cost?*

I personally love the fact that this thread brought out nearly every Non-us number possible, interesting way to do conversions though.


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## len (Aug 26, 2007)

*Re: Curious . . What grand gel and what does it cost?*

The few I've purchased have been in the $7.50/sheet range. I usually buy Rosco cuz I'm most familiar with their numbers.


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## Pie4Weebl (Aug 26, 2007)

*Re: Curious . . What grand gel and what does it cost?*

Rosco usually, occasionally a lee blue. In Chi I pay $6.50 a sheet, not sure what cost down here in STL is.


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## JD (Aug 26, 2007)

*Re: Curious . . What grand gel and what does it cost?*

Every brand. Most is Roscolux, but there are some Lee colors that Rosco does not match! (126 mauve, 119 Blue, 139 green) I even have an old stash of Roscolene, which I don't think is carried anymore.


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## Kelite (Aug 27, 2007)

*Re: Curious . . What grand gel and what does it cost?*

<(sorry Keith... I do like your gobos better)>

That's quite alright, every quality product has a growth curve! We have dealers stocking Apollo gel in over 26 states and several countries for last minute shoppers. You'll be seeing more of the 24 x 24 inch sheets and Apollo Perf-Gel in the future!


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## Jezza (Aug 27, 2007)

*Re: Curious . . What grand gel and what does it cost?*

I'm paying $5.75 for Rosco or Lee locally, + shipping. Not bad. I tend to purchase Rosco more often as I am more familiar with their colors and the Lee gel book is absolutely stupid to try and search for anything. I usually buy Gam diffusion for around $6.00 and will pick up Rosco or Apollo patterns for around $10.00 a piece (steel).


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## gafftapegreenia (Aug 27, 2007)

*Re: Curious . . What grand gel and what does it cost?*

I was buying Rosco in Detroit for about $7 a sheet, thats about average in the area. Not sjure on the prices in Milwaukee yet.

I usually use Rosco because I like the colors and EVERYONE has it. However, some of those Apollo colors look awesome and can't wait to try them out.

I agree about LEE, that book is horrible to search.


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## Jezza (Aug 27, 2007)

*Re: Curious . . What grand gel and what does it cost?*


gafftapegreenia said:


> I agree about LEE, that book is horrible to search.



You see, I'm sure there is a method to it, something about saturation or hue or transmission or something, but it is NOT obvious and the number system is totally screwy--can someone from Lee explain their gel book!?


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## derekleffew (Aug 28, 2007)

*Re: Curious . . What grand gel and what does it cost?*


Jezza said:


> You see, I'm sure there is a method to it, something about saturation or hue or transmission or something, but it is NOT obvious and the number system is totally screwy--can someone from Lee explain their gel book!?



I'm not from Lee, and I'm sure Keith, Skip, Steve Terry, or others will correct me if I'm wrong, but...

The Lee numbering system and colors were derived from Cinemoid--a plastic color medium, like Roscolene, as opposed to polyester like Roscolux, that became defunct as it could not stand up to the energy of Q-I (T/H) lamps. Those of us who used Cinemoid, which were 5xx numbers, are quite comfortable with the Lee numbers, which use 1xx. The Lee 7xx and 3xx are newer colors added when they ran out of 1xx numbers. Yes, it's a caluge, but Lee still offers a "Numeric Edition" swatchbook, and a "Designers Edition _includes Numeric listing_" swatchbook. My "Numeric Edition" is still what I use most often, does not include 3xx and 7xx, and is rather dog-earred. Most British LDs prefer Lee, as Cinemoid was a Rank-Strand product. Many American LDs, particularly in dance, seem to want to emulate the British and specify LEE Filters only.

To further confuse matters, the Lee 0xx numbers are "clones" of Roscolux colors, with notable exceptions, i.e. Lee002 IS NOT the same as Lux02; Lee003 IS NOT Lux03; but Lee004 IS very close to Lux04. I once went 'round and 'round with a Master Elect. who said the sheet he had that just said "003" was Lux03. I didn't have my swatchbooks with me so I couldn't prove it, and it was only Followspot color for a one-off that the LD wouldn't use anyway. And I was right; we cut, framed, and loaded 6 colors in 6 spots and the LD only used OW and Frame#1. Happens ALL the time. Rant OFF. But I digress. Also Lee has the "HT" prefix, which costs $2-3 more per sheet, but does hold up longer, and IMO, is worth the added cost in saturated colors.

The only color media manufacturer that makes sense spectrally is GamColor. When Joe Tawil took the colors of the defunct Gelatran, he was able to devise a system that made sense, as he was starting from scratch. I feel GAM colors are the "flashiest," as well as having the sexiest names, like G195 Nymph Pink, G888 Blue Belle, and G985 Ripe Plum. Three of Roscolux's sexiest colors are what I call the "ego" colors: X336 Billington Pink, X39 Skelton Exotic Sangria, and X349 Fisher Fuchsia. Do the designers, or Tom Skelton's estate, get a royalty whenever these colors are sold?

Roscolux has been able to keep somewhat of an order, by adding 3xx in between xx colors, but Excel doesn't understand that and it makes my color lists odd when I sort by color#. In the early 1980s Rosco was having quality-control issues and began adding an "-A" suffix to colors they could no longer replicate. Thus there was R35 and R35A, and they were close, but not the same, color.


Sorry Keith, no offense to Apollo Gel implied, but it took me 10 years to accept GAM, and I still only use a few of those colors, not available in Lee or Roscolux. 

For a .PDF of an Excel conversion chart of Lux to Lee & GAM, visit my site at http://www.derekleffew.com/referencedocumentsandwebsites. For the actual Excel file, so you can sort other ways, email me.

Hope this helps. As I've said before, I have a fetish for "modern" stage lighting history.

Derek


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## Footer (Aug 28, 2007)

*Re: Curious . . What grand gel and what does it cost?*

I always have two lee book around, a numeric and a designer. Lee is weird simply because it is an older system, but instead of throwing it all out, they just went with it. Same reason we still measure in feet over here in the states, we are to lazy to learn a new system. The last theatre I was at the house elec put all the 3's or rosco in a separate filing cabinet, it was very annoying. Short of going to the dewey decimal system, gel organizing will never be a perfect art.


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## Kelite (Aug 28, 2007)

*Re: Curious . . What grand gel and what does it cost?*

This post is not directed toward anyone in particular, but more as an FYI to all gel users.

The actual light spectrum, with visable light beginning around 350 nanometers(Ultra-Violet) and ending around 800 nanometers (Infra-Red), is the spectral wavelength professors and scientists use when placing a specific color on 'the map'. All gel manufacturers use a spectral chart to indicate the color of their gels. Each gel has a slipsheet within the swatchbook, indicating the color name, number, and the color's placement within the spectral curve.

Apollo has chosen to use the spectral numbers as our gel numbers (how simple is that?) to simplify the process. The Lavs/Violets are in the 3000 range, Blues are in the 4000 range, Greens/5000, Yellows/6000, et al.

With four digits, we have more than enough room to add transmissions between existing colors- avoiding prefix numbers and letters.

I completely understand using products which are familiar to you, and am encouraged by the growing number of Apollo Gel users at the school level as well as theater. 

Now, back to our regularly scheduled program.....


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## gafftaper (Aug 28, 2007)

*Re: Curious . . What grand gel and what does it cost?*


Kelite said:


> This post is not directed toward anyone in particular, but more as an FYI to all gel users.
> The actual light spectrum, with visable light beginning around 350 nanometers(Ultra-Violet) and ending around 800 nanometers (Infra-Red), is the spectral wavelength professors and scientists use when placing a specific color on 'the map'. All gel manufacturers use a spectral chart to indicate the color of their gels. Each gel has a slipsheet within the swatchbook, indicating the color name, number, and the color's placement within the spectral curve.
> Apollo has chosen to use the spectral numbers as our gel numbers (how simple is that?) to simplify the process. The Lavs/Violets are in the 3000 range, Blues are in the 4000 range, Greens/5000, Yellows/6000, et al.
> With four digits, we have more than enough room to add transmissions between existing colors- avoiding prefix numbers and letters.
> ...



No way Keith... you guys actually thought about it and came up with a reason for the numbers! How logical and scientific of you.

I liked Derek's little history of Gel but couldn't help think that it was a little crazy how we are using numbering systems based on other numbering systems from dead manufacturers and dead technology.


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## Kelite (Aug 28, 2007)

*Re: Curious . . What grand gel and what does it cost?*

<couldn't help think that it was a little crazy how we are using numbering systems based on other numbering systems from dead manufacturers and dead technology.>

Our thoughts EXACTLY. 

As young lighting designers develop and formulate their favorite palettes of color, the light spectrum can be trusted to provide accuracy. We would like to support their quest for suitable colors by being exact, rather than by taking a 'hit or miss' approach.


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## derekleffew (Aug 28, 2007)

*Re: Curious . . What grand gel and what does it cost?*


gafftaper said:


> I liked Derek's little history of Gel but couldn't help think that it was a little crazy how we are using numbering systems based on other numbering systems from dead manufacturers and dead technology.



Kind of like advocating a system of measurement of length based on some guy's foot who died like a million years ago.


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## Charc (Aug 28, 2007)

*Re: Curious . . What grand gel and what does it cost?*


gafftaper said:


> No way Keith... you guys actually thought about it and came up with a reason for the numbers! How logical and scientific of you.
> I liked Derek's little history of Gel but couldn't help think that it was a little crazy how we are using numbering systems based on other numbering systems from dead manufacturers and dead technology.



Gaff, I fear Apollo's smart numbering process has the same forward thinking as the metric system... but I'm ready to convert! I even tried picking up an Apollo swatch book, but the philly theatre supply store (yep, we have one) doesn't have Apollo swatch books... so all I have is rosco and lee...


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## gafftapegreenia (Aug 28, 2007)

*Re: Curious . . What grand gel and what does it cost?*

I have an Apollo swatch book. I must say, the little blurbs on the back of each color info sheet make for some high quality reading. Seriously, those are the best, like on AP6900, Butterscotch.


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## Kelite (Aug 28, 2007)

*Re: Curious . . What grand gel and what does it cost?*

<the little blurbs on the back of each color info sheet make for some high quality reading.>

KC Hooper and the rest of the sales/marketing gang added theater lighting tips to the swatchbook last year. Knowing the number of high school and church drama teachers that may not have an in-depth background in technical theater or color theory could benefit from them. 

Along with Perf Gel and 24 x 24 inch sheets for better yield, it's just another reason to keep Apollo in mind for your gel. We're in this for the long haul-

edit (As an aid to the drama teachers, Apollo has the first of several 'Playbooks' available to assist in a number of popular high school productions.)

http://downloads.goapollo.com/DiaryOfAnneFrank.pdf

'Our Town', 'The Crucible', and 'The Glass Menagerie' are next!


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## BillESC (Aug 28, 2007)

*Re: Curious . . What grand gel and what does it cost?*

Anyone who wishes to get an Apollo swatch book can contact me and we'll send one out free of charge.


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## TupeloTechie (Aug 28, 2007)

*Re: Curious . . What grand gel and what does it cost?*

what about the goboman gel? Has anyone ever used it? It seems to be alittle cheaper, but I'm not so sure on the quality of it, and the color options.

http://goboman.com/color_filters.asp


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## avkid (Aug 28, 2007)

*Re: Curious . . What grand gel and what does it cost?*

They want $10 plus s+h for a swatch book.


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## gafftaper (Aug 28, 2007)

*Re: Curious . . What grand gel and what does it cost?*


avkid said:


> They want $10 plus s+h for a swatch book.



Ouch! "Hi, I'm a small company, new to the market, Give me $10 to see what I sell."


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## avkid (Aug 28, 2007)

*Re: Curious . . What grand gel and what does it cost?*

And oh my gawd, $9.98 for shipping!!


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## gafftapegreenia (Aug 28, 2007)

*Re: Curious . . What grand gel and what does it cost?*

Wait, Goboman wants $10 for a book? I got mine for free.....

Anway, the Goboman book is worse than the LEE, there is no order. The colors are just ordered randomly. Yes, they have numbers, but that's where it ends. I don't believe Goboman makes their gel. I think they actually have a deal with Formatt Filters in the UK. After much haggling I got Formatt to send me a swatchbook - they said they don't like to send them out because it costs them money - anyway, it was like a large version of the Goboman book. Same numbers, more colors and no order. Doubt I'll be using them.

Edit for typos.


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## Logos (Aug 28, 2007)

*Re: Curious . . What grand gel and what does it cost?*

Just as a matter of interest does Apollo have a distributor in Australia yet. I am always open to new ideas and using a colour called Butterscotch appeals somehow.


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## gafftapegreenia (Aug 28, 2007)

*Re: Curious . . What grand gel and what does it cost?*


Logos said:


> using a colour called Butterscotch appeals somehow.



It's even better when the back of the color curve reads "Similar to AP6800 with a bit more orange. Good for deep desert sun. Subdues blue tones. Good for dim lantern of firelight. Nice for golden sunset and tasty on a sundae."


I'd like to add that I recently found a sort of "history of gel", unfortunatly its in German. 
http://www.hbernstaedt.de/KnowHow/Farbfolien/folien.htm

This is bad, this thread has got me all interested in gel history now.


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## Kelite (Aug 29, 2007)

*Re: Curious . . What grand gel and what does it cost?*

<Yes, they have numbers, but that's where it ends. I don't believe Goboman makes their gel.>

Uh, no. It's two people working from the home garage. And all my best to them for their efforts.


The additional 'Apollo Playbills' are available for viewing or download. Feel free to send this to as many drama teachers as you see fit. Hard copies are available as well...

http://downloads.goapollo.com/OurTown.pdf

http://downloads.goapollo.com/TheCrucible.pdf

http://downloads.goapollo.com/TheGlassMenagerie.pdf


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## gafftapegreenia (Aug 29, 2007)

*Re: Curious . . What grand gel and what does it cost?*


Kelite said:


> Uh, no. It's two people working from the home garage. And all my best to them for their efforts.[/url]



Well, okay, I am corrected. But riddle me this, why are the Formatt and Goboman swatchbooks so similar?


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## Kelite (Aug 29, 2007)

*Re: Curious . . What grand gel and what does it cost?*

Well, if I were to purchase gaffer tape from a major manufacturer and needed to display a sample of the wares, the manufacturer would produce a sample tape card for my use. The assembly of the tape card with tape samples would look very similar to the original manufacturer's marketing items. 

Fair enough?


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## gafftapegreenia (Aug 29, 2007)

*Re: Curious . . What grand gel and what does it cost?*

Fair enough.


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## Kelite (Aug 29, 2007)

*Re: Curious . . What grand gel and what does it cost?*

<Just as a matter of interest does Apollo have a distributor in Australia yet. I am always open to new ideas and using a colour called Butterscotch appeals somehow.
__________________
Tony Moore
Semi retired semi lunatic>


Hi Tony,

At the moment Kenderdine in Auckland has been helping us serve the land down under. I've visited with several companies during a visit to Sydney, but no one company has the 'sole distributorship' rights to Oz.

I'm keen as mustard to get a few on board the bus though!


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## Sean (Aug 29, 2007)

*Re: Curious . . What grand gel and what does it cost?*


Kelite said:


> <Yes, they have numbers, but that's where it ends. I don't believe Goboman makes their gel.>
> Uh, no. It's two people working from the home garage. And all my best to them for their efforts.



I also applaud Steve and Rebel's efforts on making Goboman work. They are not (by their own admission) manufacturing gel in their garage.

--Sean


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## gafftapegreenia (Aug 29, 2007)

*Re: Curious . . What grand gel and what does it cost?*

While I love the idea of low cost gels and gobos, and will probably end up using Goboman product in the future, their book is just ...random. I'm sorry, and I hold nothing against a small company like Goboman, I just feel it would have been a prudent buisness decision to launch their line with a more organized book.


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## Charc (Aug 29, 2007)

*Re: Curious . . What grand gel and what does it cost?*


gafftapegreenia said:


> While I love the idea of low cost gels and gobos, and will probably end up using Goboman product in the future, their book is just ...random. I'm sorry, and I hold nothing against a small company like Goboman, I just feel it would have been a prudent buisness decision to launch their line with a more organized book.



I'm not trying to nitpick, but I'm not clear, are you saying you will or won't use goboman in the future?

As for myself, I have no intentions of it.

Apollo is top on my list though! The numbers as wavelengths have got me excited!


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## gafftapegreenia (Aug 29, 2007)

*Re: Curious . . What grand gel and what does it cost?*

Umm, if presented a situation where it would be useful, i.e., very small budget and short term use, I might. As always, it's about what's right for the job. However, my point remains that a poorly organized swatchbook is not conducive to me using someone's product. Also, I don't want to say "I'll never use Goboman", because that day will come when for some reason or another, I do.

In the mean time, I'll continue to use gel from the big names, and try to explore Apollo and the others when I can. Up until this point I have been nearly a Rosco only designer, due to its widespread availability and my familiarity with it. I hope that I might have a better chance in college to explore the creative aspects of lighting in greater depth.

Does that make sense, it does in my warped mind...


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## derekleffew (Jan 27, 2008)

*Re: Curious . . What grand gel and what does it cost?*

Exactly what is the cut-off for "necroposting"? And some random thoughts, while I wait for new posts in more current topics.

"I'm keen as mustard to get a few on board the bus though!" Kelite where on earth did a phrase such as "Keen as mustard" come from? Is that an Indianian thing? You'll be happy to know I used a little square of AP2110 from my new swatchbook to gel my new LED minimag. Just can't stand the blue-white of LED and 3/4CTO is perfect. BTW, does CTO stand for "Color Temperature Orange" or "Correct to Orange"? And what is the number for AP-clear?

BillESC to answer your original question, as a "man off the street" in October, I paid $7.25/each for one sheet of Lux, Lee, Gam, and AP. In the 80s I used to pay $2.95 for Lux and $2.75 for Lee from NYC. I don't think that vendor is in business any longer.

I picked up a swatchbook from a manufacturer named "Cotech" at LDI last time. Colors seem to be clones of Lux and Lee. I should be cutting _that_ one up for gelling flashlights.


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## avkid (Jan 27, 2008)

*Re: Curious . . What grand gel and what does it cost?*


derekleffew said:


> "I'm keen as mustard to get a few on board the bus though!" Kelite where on earth did a phrase such as "Keen as mustard" come from? Is that an Indianian thing?


No, a little farther to the East.
http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/as-keen-as-mustard.html


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## gafftapegreenia (Jan 27, 2008)

Derek, you mentioned you got a Cotech swatchbook? That was where my originally criticism of the Goboman line of gel came from. There are three "other" gel manufacturers we seldom recognize, these being Cotech, Chris James, and Formatt. I was trying for the longest time to get swatchbooks from each one of these companies. Well, finally I got ahold of someone at Formatt. They told me something to the effect of "Well, we don't like to send out swatchbooks because they are expensive but since you took the time to seek us out we will." Well, my Formatt book came, and it's the size of the LEE book, but the colors have NO organization. Not bad colors, but even the LEE numerical system makes more sense. So, then I decided to look at the Chris James and Cotech websites. Guess what, EXACT same colors, numbers and organization as Formatt. So, here we have three companies with essentially the exact same thing. What is going on here.

Then I got my Goboman swatches. Here's where I got in trouble on this thread. The Goboman book, albeit 1/3 the size of my Formatt book, has the same colors, numbers and organization as Formatt and all the rest. So, I understand that Goboman is trying to provide low cost alternatives, and has several manufacturing partnerships, but at least they could be original in the organization of their gel. Now, I don't know if Goboman actually makes their gel, but regardless, a bit of swatchbook organization would help a long way in getting their product into use.

These are my feelings, feel free to disagree.


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## derekleffew (Jan 27, 2008)

gafftapegreenia said:


> Then I got my Goboman swatches. Here's where I got in trouble on this thread. The Goboman book, albeit 1/3 the size of my Formatt book, has the same colors, numbers and organization as Formatt and all the rest. So, I understand that Goboman is trying to provide low cost alternatives, and has several manufacturing partnerships, but at least they could be original in the organization of their gel. Now, I don't know if Goboman actually makes their gel, but regardless, a bit of swatchbook organization would help a long way in getting their product into use.


The order makes perfect sense, once one understands that they "borrowed" the colors and numbers of Lux and Lee. And I'm not knocking them, Lee did the same thing to Strand's Cinemoid, and has many (most) colors and numbers similar to Lux. With color media it just doesn't make sense to buy "generic." Stick to the big four "brand" names. (In the US.) Where did I read where an Asian manufacturer had a line similar to Lux, same colors, but was like cellophane and burned through immediately? I think it was from someone on tour in the Far East. Would you like me to send you my Cotech swatchbook?


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## gafftapegreenia (Jan 27, 2008)

That is basically my point. I'm sticking to the "Big 4". Maybe when I understand LEE I will understand the "generics". Makes sense to be like LEE in European countries. 

Cheap Asian gels? Probably what you get with ADJ pars.


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## Logos (Jan 27, 2008)

Theres a lot of unlabeled cheap gel around here. It tends to come precut in packets of mixed unnumbered colours for various standard size lanterns. It is like cellophane and lasts about 10 minutes. It seems to be LEE colours though. Thats a guess based on having to use it once or twice. When my daughter borrows my Par 16's and Par 20's for her scout show I buy that for her because my lights come back but the colour never does. I reckon they pinch it for craft projects.


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## Kelite (Jan 28, 2008)

< BTW, does CTO stand for "Color Temperature Orange" or "Correct to Orange"? >

Yes and yes, it just depends who you ask at any given time. I believe CTO Color Temperature Orange (photography) is the 'official' accepted definition though.

And what is the number for AP-clear?

The Apollo Clear gel (as used on each gel string) is #AP 0000, and will be recognized on the website in the future. Sorry for the confusion!


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## SteveB (Jan 28, 2008)

BillESC said:


> I'm interested in what brands of gel you all use and what your current cost is.
> Thanks for the help.



We use all - Rosco, Lee, GAM and Apollo, though I really only use the GAM and Apollo for visiting companies whose plot called for particular colors. 

I tend to use Rosco mostly, with some Lee, for in-house designed events.

We pay about $6.25 at GSD in Long Island, NY

Except when we get an idiotic request for about an entires plot full of GAM 870, which is a very, very pale blue color correction. The touring company of The Acting Company used this yesterday on a tour of The Tempest and GSD did not stock the quantity I needed (14 sheets), thus we had to FedEx from California, so the sheets cost $8.25 ea. with shipping factored in. 

It escapes my why the friggin designer and/or the tour LD didn't make a note that Lee 218 was a perfectly acceptable substitute and is probably a color that shops are more likely to keep in stock, at least in these parts - Brooklyn and the NYC metro area. I've nothing good to say about this subject and this show, BTW.......

Venting in NY and sorry for the thread topic diversion.

Steve B.


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## derekleffew (Jan 28, 2008)

SteveB said:


> ...Except when we get an idiotic request for about an entires plot full of GAM 870, which is a very, very pale blue color correction. The touring company of The Acting Company used this yesterday on a tour of The Tempest and GSD did not stock the quantity I needed (14 sheets), thus we had to FedEx from California, so the sheets cost $8.25 ea. with shipping factored in.
> 
> It escapes my why the friggin designer and/or the tour LD didn't make a note that Lee 218 was a perfectly acceptable substitute and is probably a color that shops are more likely to keep in stock, at least in these parts - Brooklyn and the NYC metro area. I've nothing good to say about this subject and this show, BTW.......
> 
> ...


SteveB-enitre plots with CTB in every light? Yes, BTDT! The first time I did _Mumenschantz_, I believe it was Bev Emmons, who had recently convinced them that L202 would make their "whites whiter." ALL fixtures, except for two specials that were R26, were 1/2CTB. It worked! I kept the L202 on file as they were a big hit and I knew we'd be having them again. This was my first introduction to the "back of the swatch book" color corrections.

But couldn't/wouldn't you have just substituted the L218 for the G870? Or was it not worth the $115? I substitute all the time for followspot color, as that's all we provide and I have a limited stock. I've never been questioned, but if anyone ever asks, I would say "It's just the fixture/throw distance" of the 2K Xenon Super Trouper.

On a different note, I contacted my old friend Mike Kaye of VADAR, which used to be in NYC and is now in FL, and he tells me he has "some odd colors that we are clearing out at the price you paid in the 80’s. Do call me and say hello again. Thanks. Mike Kaye 1 800 221 9511" So about $3/sheet for Lux and Lee? Give him a call, or visit VADAR Productions. Tell him I sent you!


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## icewolf08 (Jan 28, 2008)

Good Grief! Putting 1/4 CTB in your fixtures doesn't make your white whiter, it changes your perception of white. 

There is a wide range of color temp that we accept as white. Thus, if you shift your white point towards blue by using a 1/4 CTB we then perceive that as the white point. So if you were to have a no-color unit it would look yellow-ish. You can also shift your white point warmer and you can shift it towards lavender. It is like putting on a pair of lightly tinted sunglasses and wearing them all day, you still perceive white as white, even though your glasses may have a rose tint, but when you take them off, the world will seem a little bluer.


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## Kelite (Jan 28, 2008)

That's an interesting topic to think about, Alex. When buying 'white' paint from a local paint supply place for commercial use, attendant added half a squirt of blue into each can before placing on the "shakesasfastascanbe' machine. His explained that the paint wouldn't look very white without it.

Interesting when compared to the comments made at LDI during an ESTA sponsored seminar regarding 'Practical Photometry Image Quality and Lumen Output'. Post seminar comments and explanations included the reason why little old blue-haired ladies have blue hair. Their eyes (and those of their hair-dressers) have aged to the point that the blue isn't perceived as blue. It is perceived as a 'whiter white'.

Depending upon our age, our visual sensors will tell us what they can. (Even when you don't think your hair looks blue, but your kids tell you- YES!)


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## derekleffew (Jan 28, 2008)

icewolf08 said:


> Good Grief! Putting 1/4 CTB in your fixtures doesn't make your white whiter, it changes your perception of white...


Alex, I'm sure you know what I meant. When the 2700K houselights went to black, and the, "corrected to" 4300K stage lights came on, the whites in _Mumenschantz_'s B&W costumes really popped. And the moment in the show when they used the two R26 specials alone...I've never seen a "redder" red.

For those who don't know, _Mumenschantz _is/was a mime troupe in the 70s/80s. They were doing the "rolls of toilet paper" thing way before The Blue Man Group.


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## SteveB (Jan 28, 2008)

Warning - LONG POST:

In response to derek and Alex, yes I might well have 
substituted to L218, except....

I got a "final" converted version of our rep plot from the tour LD (who admittedly was up to his buns - and 2 weeks late we learned after, at pre-tour tech for the show, the week prior) on a Friday 1/18 - a week early. The original plot by a well known designer had no color information on the plot (didn't we just have this discussion ?) and had no hookup attached. The "final" plot adaptation did have an LW file with NO color info in it, which I did not get till late last Monday 1/21. I then worked at home on Tues. (my day off) on the files, sending the sheet color order to the shop on Tuesday, who then informed me they had to FedEx missing GAM, for Wed. P/U (electrics prep was 1/25, load-in 1/26, Perf.1/27). 

I actually did not look in the GAM book to see what G870 was, till Wed. 1/23 (I was home and left my books at work). Had I checked out the color I would have called the LD and told him we were substituting L218 for the GAM as we were not paying the extra $30 to FedEx, PLUS $6.25 a sheet for 14 sheets. 

As far as I'm concerned, it's the job of the touring LD to figure out what's going to work at the assorted houses they go to ( a tradition started in some ways by dance SM/LD's such as Tom Skelton, Jennifer Tipton and Bev Emmons - whom had been quoted often about this subject), and more experienced LD's know that most house have a greater selection of Rosco and Lee (for the time being). Most experienced LD's also do a substitution list (when appropriate). This plot had some Lee HT 026, which IS R26, as example. 

About half the total plot was in GAM 870 and I don't really care if a plot is all in N/C or R85 - designers choice, etc....

FWIW, every back light and hi-side PAR had R114 added to the color. About every ellipsoidal had a mix of R132 or R119. 

Thread diversion here:

The LD focused by first asking for the color to be pulled on the unit (ellipsoidals). He would then sharpen to hard beam edge, do cuts, then drop color and frost back in. We focused 125 units in 5 hrs., which for us is painful. 

The LD also used focus tapes, but actually did not have focus charts to reference, only using a magic sheet. In any event our RFU operator had the plot in front of her and would call up channels and tell the LD what it was. I didn't understand why he used focus tapes. Maybe he had memorized all the positions, but doubtful as this was the first stop. 

I was also un-clear as to why he needed to pull "color" on the GAM 870's to "see" where the beam was, as, well..... I left it alone. 

I generally see the more experienced touring LD's NOT automatically add diffusion to ellipsoidals - and cannot remember the time anyone asked for generic diffusion for a PAR, which had little to no discernible effect on the beam quality. Adding R132 or R119 or someone elses version, I understand, especially for some S4 36's and 19's, but I generally just run it soft and see what it looks like, having requested a lot of diffusion to be ready as needed. In any event, the original plot had R119 or R132 ADDED in every frame, as opposed to separate frames, which I changed in the cut list, wanting the option. It actually turned out to be a mistake when EVERY color frame on EVERY ellipsoidal was pulled to focus, requiring the electrician to restore 2 frames of color for every unit. 

Then there were the scroller issues, then the touring Express 250 dying at 9PM Sat. nite, then the AutoYokes not functioning..... another post perhaps.

Partial rant over.

Steve B.


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## gafftapegreenia (Jan 28, 2008)

Just so we're clear:
G870 is 1/8 CTB. 

G842 is 1/2 CTB.

L202 is 1/2 CTB.

L218 is 1/8 CTB.


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## derekleffew (Jan 28, 2008)

Thank you for that clarification, gafftapegreenia, but you could have been more complete. See below.

SteveB, didn't mean to touch a nerve. Focusing 25 units an hour is painful? For buffet lighting in ballrooms, hotels here CHARGE an hour (at $50-90) labor to focus 6 units/hour. I average about 20units/hour, just me and a Scissor lift, depending on how crowded with tables and chairs the room is. (And whether or not I'm on overtime yet.)

I've often wondered the wisdom of R132 in every ERS also, as you have to pull it during focus, get a "blue-line" edge, make shutter cuts, put it back in, and then often re-adjust shutters. AND sometimes still "run the barrel." (Should have been), good thinking to put it in an extra frame.

DO share more of your rants/war stories in the future. I think we all find them entertaining, both to learn from, and to commiserate with. Significant others just don't seem to understand, sometimes.


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## gafftapegreenia (Jan 28, 2008)

Derek, Derek, Derek. What do you have against my friend R3206, 1/3 Blue? He's a great color. He also has an Apollo cousin, AP2030. 

And what about Double CTB's, like R3220, L200, G847 or AP2090.

Of course I can't speak for GAM's oddball, G872, 1/6 CTB. 

Oh and your chart is also missing GAM's four-digit numbering for their CTBs.


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## Charc (Jan 28, 2008)

That's a coincidence because I always spec R00 and R96 in all of my ERSs. I find the R00 helps diffuse the beam, without getting in the way of shutter cuts as much as R119. R96, that's a no brainer, it changes the color dramatically, like 1/2 Blue. But R96 provides a unique white, which enhances the eye's perception after the 3,200K houselights fade to black.


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## gafftapegreenia (Jan 28, 2008)

Go to your room, you're on a time out.


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## Charc (Jan 28, 2008)

gafftapegreenia said:


> Go to your room, you're on a time out.



Oh come on greenia, give it a shot, slide R00 and R96 into all the NC at your next hang, I'm sure the LD with [-]thank you[/-] hang _you_.


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## SteveB (Jan 28, 2008)

derekleffew said:


> SteveB, didn't mean to touch a nerve. Focusing 25 units an hour is painful? For buffet lighting in ballrooms, hotels here CHARGE an hour (at $50-90) labor to focus 6 units/hour. I average about 20units/hour, just me and a Scissor lift, depending on how crowded with tables and chairs the room is. (And whether or not I'm on overtime yet.)
> 
> I've often wondered the wisdom of R132 in every ERS also, as you have to pull it during focus, get a "blue-line" edge, make shutter cuts, put it back in, and then often re-adjust shutters. AND sometimes still "run the barrel." (Should have been), good thinking to put it in an extra frame.
> DO share more of your rants/war stories in the future. I think we all find them entertaining, both to learn from, and to commiserate with. Significant others just don't seem to understand, sometimes.



Our setup when focusing is it's almost always a tour or in-house design. Tours generally know where the stuff is going so while it's a bit slower then in-house, it's usually about 2 minutes a unit or quicker. In house is 30 seconds to 1 minute. Its a clear flat stage floor, nothing in the way. We use a 2000 lbs JLG self powered lift that really speeds things up (no - go to height, focus a few units - drop down, release outriggers, move, crank outriggers, go to height, etc...) as well as electricians that focus here all the time. Thus we can be fast as we have good control over all the variables that would normally slow things down - no sound check noise, no road cases or speaker stacks in the way or audio/video cables all over the deck.

The R132 in the ERS we almost always see spec'd as "in case we need it". This was about the first show that had it in every unit ahead of time (The GAM870 PLUS R119 in same frame note in the hookup). A method I've seem work very well is at the Santa Fe Opera, where they keep every ERS at hard edge, all the time and add frost after shutter cuts. This LD for the Acting Company was proficient at knowing that he had to bring in the cuts a few inches to allow for the diffusion, though that didn't work for the FOH with spill all over the Proscenium and 1st border. Adding diffusion to every frame in a advance is not a method I recommend for a lot of reasons. ETC and Altman have 2 slots for color frames on their units for a reason.

And back to the OP, I buy lamps from Bulbtronics. I've been contemplating buying gel from them as well, as they can get it to me in a day, but they are not (to my knowledge) GAM nor Apollo dealers. They should be. I'm of the opinion that the more choices the better and I would never dictate to a visiting LD that they change a color choice just because it's what I have in stock (well - not usually for that reason), as I can order. I still need the dealer to have all the range though and a reasonable stock. 

Steve B.


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## derekleffew (Jan 29, 2008)

gafftapegreenia said:


> Go to your room, you're on a time out.


Yes, that works. PUNISH him by sending him to his room, where he has a laptop, internet, plasma TV, DVD, cable TV, TiVo, WiFi, iPod, Playstation, 8-tracks and cassettes in stereo...oh, won't you staaaay, just a little bit longerrrr... But I digress, whatever happened to standing in a corner, with your nose holding a penny against the wall, and if it dropped you got another 15 minutes? That's the problem with kids today--no discipline.

As I said, I have no use for 1/3 or 1/6 CTB, CTO, or -Grn. And my GAM book doesn't have any four-digit CT O/B. So let me get this, GAM uses three digit, four digit, and two-two digit for diffusion??? Crazy. And when SteveB mentioned G842, I will always think of that as a Violet/Lavender. Just like I always thought R132 was a nice blue, like L132. Confusing. Everyone, switchover to Apollo, right now. Just throw everything else away and start over. Tomorrow we will convert to the metric system. Just like removing a Band-Aid. Just do it quick and get it over with.

SteveB, just about every corporate show I've done in recent memory has L202 and R132 (used to be R119, before that R114) in every S4. Really annoying to tell the focuser to pull the color and run the barrel while he's on the truss, but it happens! Normally corporate shows (arena and ballroom) are focused from a scissor or articulating-boom lift, as they don't want to pay the "high-time." Sounds like you have a good focus system. I think I tried to get Grog12 to buy a lift like yours, but he bought, or already had the Genie version instead. Did the local guys complain any when you eliminated the ladder crew?

Icewolf08, Van, others, how many units do you typically focus in an hour? Depends on the designer, right? I'm sure it's slower than SteveB as it's not a tour. One-offs can be the fastest or the slowest. But dance plots always focus fairly quickly.


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## avkid (Jan 29, 2008)

derekleffew said:


> 8-tracks and cassettes in stereo


Ah..you remind me.
Now the seats are all empty
Let the roadies take the stage
Pack it up and tear it down
They're the first to come and last to leave
Working for that minimum wage
They'll set it up in another town
Tonight the people were so fine
They waited there in line
And when they got up on their feet they made the show
And that was sweet...
But I can hear the sound
Of slamming doors and folding chairs
And that's a sound they'll never know
Now roll them cases out and lift them amps
Haul them trusses down and get'em up them ramps
'Cause when it comes to moving me
You guys are the champs
But when that last guitar's been packed away
You know that I still want to play
So just make sure you got it all set to go
Before you come for my piano
But the band's on the bus
And they're waiting to go
We've got to drive all night and do a show in Chicago
or Detroit, I don't know
We do so many shows in a row
And these towns all look the same
We just pass the time in our hotel rooms
And wander 'round backstage
Till those lights come up and we hear that crowd
And we remember why we came
Now we got country and western on the bus
R and B, we got disco in eight tracks and cassettes in stereo
We've got rural scenes & magazines
We've got truckers on the CB
We've got Richard Pryor on the video
We got time to think of the ones we love
While the miles roll away
But the only time that seems too short
Is the time that we get to play
People you've got the power over what we do
You can sit there and wait
Or you can pull us through
Come along, sing the song
You know you can't go wrong
'Cause when that morning sun comes beating down
You're going to wake up in your town
But we'll be scheduled to appear
A thousand miles away from here


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## soundlight (Jan 29, 2008)

Jackson Browne, yeah! Good music, and appreciation for our jobs. Now if only he would stop playing the piano so we can get it in the truck...


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## derekleffew (Jan 29, 2008)

What's the name of that song...stri...no, that's not it. 

And what an f-ing prima donna... 
"So just make sure you got it all set to go
Before you come for my piano..."
EVERYONE knows the backline is the FIRST thing on the truck, as it will come off last at the next stop.

"So just be sure you've got it all set to go, before you come for my chain motors"...just doesn't sounds as nice, I guess. Poetic License?


" Working for that minimum wage" Dream on fella, sounds like a producer's greatest wish.

" Now roll them cases out and lift them amps" FORKLIFT. over here!


_sorry, couldn't resist. I'll stop now. I could go on..It's tempting, I know. Why did the kids put beans in their ears..._


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## Hughesie (Jan 29, 2008)

derekleffew said:


> W Now roll them cases out and lift them amps" FORKLIFT. over here!



F-o-r-k-l-i-f-t?

man, you vegas boys have everything


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## gafftapegreenia (Jan 29, 2008)

Derek, you're right, I should have sent him to his closet and let the cat have at him. See, "normal" kids like me never had all dem fancy new fangled contraptions in their room. 

The GAM book has the four digit CTO is smaller print below the main numbers. Or at least my book does. Does your book say 3/98 on the back? That's all the ones they send me ever say. I can't believe they haven't updated in that long, I'm still trying to get a sample of the new colors. 

Whatever, go ahead and hate my 1/3 CTB. Maybe I'll find me a Roscolene book so I can do plots for my lighting class all in Roscolene. 

Forklift? My mom worked for FedEx, she always called em Hi-Lows. It's all about the hand truck and hand fork YEAAAAAA!!!


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## derekleffew (Jan 29, 2008)

gafftapegreenia said:


> Derek, you're right, I should have sent him to his closet and let the cat have at him. See, "normal" kids like me never had all dem fancy new fangled contraptions in their room. I never got sent to my room, I was usually already there, listening to LP records or watching my 13" B&W TV, all three stations.
> 
> The GAM book has the four digit CTO is smaller print below the main numbers. Or at least my book does. Does your book say 3/98 on the back? That's all the ones they send me ever say. I can't believe they haven't updated in that long, I'm still trying to get a sample of the new colors. Yes, I have the 3/98 version, nothing like a 10-year-old swatchbook. And if they want me to use the 15xx numbers, why aren't they with the rest of the 15xx's?
> 
> ...


I believe Hi-Low is a brand name. I don't know what a hand fork is, you mean pallet jack?. To Hughesie89, one cannot do the Rolling Stones and their 27x 53' trucks without 5 forklifts.


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## gafftapegreenia (Jan 29, 2008)

Yea pallet jack, my bad.

So, now we're having "name that gel"? Wonderful, even more useless things to do with my time. How do I get to guess? Can I put em on a piece of paper? Feel their weight? I can tell between R60, R61 and R4215. It's the LEE thats going to throw me.


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## SteveB (Jan 29, 2008)

derekleffew said:


> Sounds like you have a good focus system. I think I tried to get Grog12 to buy a lift like yours, but he bought, or already had the Genie version instead. Did the local guys complain any when you eliminated the ladder crew?



No, the crew was fine with it. We transitioned from an old style Genie - that extended sans outriggers, to the JLG self powered. Thus we never needed to hire 3-4 extra's to crank outriggers. The focus session is almost always first to get the overheads and ladders done so the deck is clear for the woodchucks and squeeks, so the crew isn't shorted any hours. 

The LD on The Tempest actually wanted 2 focus crews running - one guy on the JLG (plus a spotter on deck) as well as another in the new Genie, with 2-4 to crank. The PM convinced him otherwise as 1) The Genie could never keep up and 2) The Genie was needed on the truss electrics. I understand now that the LD was concerned that his prior focus sessions had taken forever as he was constantly pulling every color on every ERS - even the 1/8 CTB's.

In any event the truss electrics took up a crew of 5 for 1-1/2 hrs. 

Rant Mode:

The Tempest had a 32'x25'x9" high deck. Plus a picture frame backdrop made out of 1 ft x 1 ft. black box truss - 2 horizontal sections, one on the floor, one on top with 2 vertical sections L & R supporting, all bolted together, that sat vertically on the US edge of the deck and had a stretched fabric tied to the inside of the truss as backdrop. 

Hanging off the US chords of the truss were 7 festoon lamps, big globe lamps with clear glass, hanging down at assorted heights behind the backdrop cloth. The festoon lamps were a mogul screw base socket with 20ft. of 16/2 SJ cable with a male pin connector. 

The tour had no cable to run these lamps to house dimmers. They should have built up a bundle that picked up every hanging lamp on the top truss section, run across the top horizontal, then down to the deck as a bundle, with maybe 30 ft. of extension to get to house circuits somewhere. 5 circuits were needed (4 were spec'd).

Instead, while the picture frame truss was being assembled and the backdrop tied on - all while laying horizontal on the stage floor, we tied on the festoons at the appropriate height as indicated by a spike tape on the SJ cord, let all dangle as the entire crew did an Iwo Jima lift to vertical of the structures. Then had a crew in the Genie go up and cable and 2-fer the festoon lamps to 5 circuits from a 6 circuit multi we pulled off our non-used cyc lights (another rant). IMO cable'ing and connecting stuff in the air from a Genie is never fast nor efficient. 

It took a long time to rig, as well as slowed down the out as we had to go back an disconnect everything before we could lower the picture frame. Stupid concept not well thought out.

Rant Over, and I'm thinking this is becoming like a bunch of shrink sessions. "So, how do REALLY feel ?."

SB


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## Kelite (Jan 29, 2008)

SteveB said:


> I buy lamps from Bulbtronics. I've been contemplating buying gel from them as well, as they can get it to me in a day, but they are not (to my knowledge) GAM nor Apollo dealers. They should be. I'm of the opinion that the more choices the better and I would never dictate to a visiting LD that they change a color choice just because it's what I have in stock (well - not usually for that reason), as I can order. I still need the dealer to have all the range though and a reasonable stock.
> Steve B.




And while the JIT (Just In Time) philosophy has trickled into our lighting market, we have also caused the dealer not to stock all gobo styles and sizes, as well as gel transmission- because there are SO many choices. 

Bulbtronics does sell Apollo gel (normally as a dropshipped item from our place directly to the school/church/theater) in combination with Apollo gobos. It is often less costly from a shipping perspective when a custom gobo will be dropshipped from Apollo anyway- why not save the additional shipping charge from Bulbtronics (or other dealer) and have gobos and gel shipped together for one fee, rather than several shipping fees. (?)


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## BillESC (Jan 29, 2008)

Keith is quite right.

Let's look at stocking gel from a dealers perspective.

Apollo offers about 200 colors. What would you suppose would be an appropiate inventory for a dealer to 'have on hand?' 20 sheets per color, 50?

Even at 10 sheets per color we're talking about having 2000 sheets in stock. What's a dealer to do if a customer wants 11 sheets of a particular color? What about colors that rarely sell, you still would have to have them.

For dealers not in major urban centers that have lots of walk-in traffic it simply makes sense to drop ship directly from the manufacturer.


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## derekleffew (Jan 29, 2008)

Well Keith, while I can see and understand your point, as well as the vendor's, Las Vegas Hotels (and many other markets) are NOT going to accept or change to ApolloGel until there's a *stocking* dealer in town. I've said before, I've never had a "gel emergency" as in "If I don't get 6 sheets of APXXXX, this show is not going to happen," but consumers still want to know they can run to (insert favorite vendor here) and pick up that last sheet of XXXX. 

Too many good ideas, taking this offline now.


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## Kelite (Jan 29, 2008)

derekleffew said:


> Well Keith, while I can see and understand your point, as well as the vendor's, Las Vegas Hotels (and many other markets) are NOT going to accept or change to ApolloGel until there's a *stocking* dealer in town. I've said before, I've never had a "gel emergency" as in "If I don't get 6 sheets of APXXXX, this show is not going to happen," but consumers still want to know they can run to (insert favorite vendor here) and pick up that last sheet of XXXX.
> Too many good ideas, taking this offline now.




Yes, your point is very well explained. At the moment there are over 70 stocking dealers for Apollo Gel, with others in transition. The major theater/event cities certainly is a valid point as well.


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## SerraAva (Jan 29, 2008)

What about the dealers who carry more then one company?

I can think of two in my area that have more then one gel company in stock, and another which has Rosco, Lee, Apollo, and GAM, along with misc. gobos from each. I have also never had an issue going to them at any time and grabbing some sheets. It's pretty crazy when you think about it how much gel they must have sitting around at any one moment. I also wouldn't be surprised if they have gel dropped off to them daily.


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## SteveB (Jan 29, 2008)

Kelite said:


> And while the JIT (Just In Time) philosophy has trickled into our lighting market, we have also caused the dealer not to stock all gobo styles and sizes, as well as gel transmission- because there are SO many choices.
> Bulbtronics does sell Apollo gel (normally as a dropshipped item from our place directly to the school/church/theater) in combination with Apollo gobos. It is often less costly from a shipping perspective when a custom gobo will be dropshipped from Apollo anyway- why not save the additional shipping charge from Bulbtronics (or other dealer) and have gobos and gel shipped together for one fee, rather than several shipping fees. (?)



Good to know about Bulbtronics carrying Apollo. Bulbtronics is a company that gives me great service on lamps. I believe my last conversation with them concerning gel, was about GAM in particular, and I'm not sure they carry it. 

I actually don't worry if a dealer doesn't have a particular color, as long as they can get it in a timely fashion. I'm certain even the huge dealers in the NYC area run out of stuff all the time. It's really my problem to get the order in early enough to allow time for shipping, though my last show had issues about getting color requests to us in time to not have to pay FedEx overnight, even though we had informed them of the timeline, thus one of the many reasons I was so (and remain) annoyed about the show. 

Steve B.


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## derekleffew (Feb 1, 2008)

I found this PDF on Mike Callahan's site and thought it somewhat pertinent. Mike is very forward thinking, and has done virtually everything, everywhere.


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