# Tracking vs. Cue-Only



## icewolf08 (Feb 1, 2008)

derekleffew said:


> Tell us how you really feel [user]Icewolf08[/user], no need to be guarded around us. I bet you'd hate having to "clear the programmer."


Ok, starting this poll because I really want to know why people like their Cue-Only consoles. And I felt like a tracking rant.

Frankly, I think that if everyone took 5 minutes to learn it they could understand tracking, and they would probably never go back. Especially with the rise of MLs in many venues, it seems that living in Cue-Only land would just make your like harder. This is the biggest reason that I don't understand consoles like the Congo. RPN i could deal with, but why make a console designed for controlling MLs a Cue-Only native console?

One of the designer's that I work with insists on using Cue-only mode for his shows. Then I have to take time and go back through the show to lean up all the wacky ML live moves because they want to go back to home instead of tracking. So as the fixture fades out it is moving all over. It is a waste of time to have to fix things like that.

Or then there are the times when you want to change something, maybe the director wants the cyc brighter in the first scene. So on the tracking desk you just hit: chan# [@] level [ENTER] [UPDATE] [CUE] 2 [ENTER] and the entire first scene is changed, as opposed to going through ever cue on the cue-only desk and changing the level 15 times.

So, I want to know what you all think and why.


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## fredthe (Feb 1, 2008)

I have to agree that tracking makes the most sense... but then again, I learned on the ultimate tracking "console"... 36 dimmer autotransformer  (3 people to run... some cues were run by one person moving the master handle up or down, with the other two unlocking individual dimers from the master at various points along the way.)
Though for a recent small show I did (in a church hall, with a total of 12 dimmers) with only a couple dozen cues, the que-only board (which we got for free) was perfectly OK.
(Then there's the "tracking" automated fly system I sometimes use... but that belongs in a different forum...)


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## punktech (Feb 1, 2008)

i haven't learned tracking yet, my school has an ETC Express and Expression (i can't remember the precise versions though, sorry!). if anyone knows these boards and/or knows a good book or website to learn tracking from do tell me, i would like to learn it.


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## Charc (Feb 1, 2008)

In certain circumstances it can be a lot better:

Without proper tech time, and working with people who don't understand tracking, using tracking can become counter-productive.

Example:

Working with my dept head on shows, there is no tech time, I set levels whenever. Then she decides to step in and alter my work by calling out levels on headset during performances. If (as I have done) I set things to tracking, my changes track around everywhere, and she doesn't understand how she's altering the show.


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## derekleffew (Feb 1, 2008)

punktech said:


> i haven't learned tracking yet, my school has an ETC Express and Expression (i can't remember the precise versions though, sorry!). if anyone knows these boards and/or knows a good book or website to learn tracking from do tell me, i would like to learn it.


See the CB Glossary. "Cue tracking."

See also the Expression3 User's Manual, titled "ETCexpn31.pdf" (free download from ETC's site), Chapter 8, pp. 107-116.

I'm sure it's in the Express User's Manual also, but I've never looked.


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## derekleffew (Feb 1, 2008)

charcoaldabs said:


> ...Example:
> 
> Working with my dept head on shows, there is no tech time, I set levels whenever. Then she decides to step in and alter my work by calling out levels on headset during performances. If (as I have done) I set things to tracking, my changes track around everywhere, and she doesn't understand how she's altering the show.


Does your Strand 300 have a <Q-only> key? And have you ever used it?


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## Charc (Feb 1, 2008)

derekleffew said:


> Does your Strand 300 have a <Q-only> key? And have you ever used it?



I'm not sure if we do. I don't think I can set the board to Cue Only, but I don't know.

I could just set every cue as a block cue. I accidentally did that to one of my shows (pre-CB) and it worked out well!


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## punktech (Feb 1, 2008)

thanks derek! i actually have the manual on my hard drive, but i never read that section of it (i dl-ed it for my intro lighting tech course 2 years ago)


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## icewolf08 (Feb 1, 2008)

charcoaldabs said:


> I'm not sure if we do. I don't think I can set the board to Cue Only, but I don't know.
> I could just set every cue as a block cue. I accidentally did that to one of my shows (pre-CB) and it worked out well!


Well, you can set the 300 to Cue-Only, it is in "Show Setup" I believe (which is in report>adv. setup>show setup as opposed to just hitting setup). The 300 should also have a Q-only key, though it may say "Track/Q-only" (it does the opposite of the mode the console is in).


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## soundlight (Feb 1, 2008)

If the "Both, depending on the console or situation" option had been there when I voted, I would've picked that one.

I usually cue dance concerts in cue-only mode, because I don't use all that many cues per piece, and each cue has almost all different levels from the last cue. However, in theatre, tracking is totally sweet, and I do use it.


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## meghan (Feb 1, 2008)

I'm confused. What's tracking and cue-only? I've never heard these terms before.


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## derekleffew (Feb 1, 2008)

See the CB Glossary: Cue tracking.


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## derekleffew (Feb 1, 2008)

icewolf08 said:


> ...One of the designers that I work with insists on using Cue-Only mode for his shows. Then I have to take time and go back through the show to clean up all the wacky ML live moves because they want to go back to home instead of tracking. So as the fixture fades out it is moving all over. It is a waste of time to have to fix things like that. ...


What?! You mean you can't just put a checkmark in the "MIB" column and the desk will do your clean-ups for you?


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## soundman (Feb 1, 2008)

I think tracking is the way to go as long as the cue structure is layed out correctly, blocking cues in smart places, but I grew up with the release button and I like it. In tech when editing cues and the designer is rattling off changes "channel 35 at 40 nahh 75 let me see full at 45 screw it leave it where it was" Even if later we decided to leave the channel where it was in the previous cue later as long as we had not recorded it I could simply select the channel and then hit release and channel again. 

on the ION sneak enter seems like a decent compromise.


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## icewolf08 (Feb 2, 2008)

I am sure that ETC has something akin to [SHIFT] [CLEAR] in strand land, which, for those of you who miss the release button does essentially the same thing. Alsthough the "sneak enter" may be that command.


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## Grog12 (Feb 2, 2008)

derekleffew said:


> What?! You mean you can't just put a checkmark in the "MIB" column and the desk will do your clean-ups for you?


I miss my ma.

As for you q only types...remember that there isn't a tracking console out there that you can't record a change to q only. ((waits patiently as he knows he's going to be proved wrong))

Also...as I told one of my students. "You love tracking you just don't know it yet!"


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## derekleffew (Feb 2, 2008)

Grog12 said:


> I miss my ma...


Yeah I miss your ma too. (!)

When else can you hear an LD say "Record, Remove, Cue-Only"? Or other phrases that appear to make no sense but actually do? My favorite of these is "UN-E-Stop": describes that condition when exiting an E-Stop situation.


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## Charc (Feb 2, 2008)

icewolf08 said:


> I am sure that ETC has something akin to [SHIFT] [CLEAR] in strand land, which, for those of you who miss the release button does essentially the same thing. Alsthough the "sneak enter" may be that command.



So if I have a channel grabbed and hit [Shift], that is the same as "releasing a channel"? Doesn't [Clear] do the same thing? What is the difference, especially with [Shift] [Clear]? How do these interact with tracking? Does one just stop "holding" the channel, and the other lets it go, and revert back to it's previously recorded(or tracked) level?

Sorry to drag this off topic slightly.


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## Footer (Feb 2, 2008)

icewolf08 said:


> I am sure that ETC has something akin to [SHIFT] [CLEAR] in strand land, which, for those of you who miss the release button does essentially the same thing. Alsthough the "sneak enter" may be that command.



I much prefer the undo key in that type of situations. I might have them change 9 things, then its as simple as undo... blah blah blah...


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## len (Feb 2, 2008)

I understand tracking, and I think for some applications it makes perfect sense. But I busk 90% of the time and tracking is just something I would seldom use. The other 10% there is ways around not having that feature.


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## rmarston (Feb 2, 2008)

I like tracking better than cue only most of the time. Tracking usually makes programing faster once you get the hang of it.


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## propmonkey (Feb 3, 2008)

ive always used cue only on the strand. it was the way i learned. i never had ml to worry about. i like the record each cue as it is. once i go away to college im sure ill use tracking but for now my mind thinks in cue only.


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## beltsvillecrucib (Feb 3, 2008)

I think tracking is a god send for theatrical programming, however, it is essential to know when hard(blocking) cues are necessary, especially when programming movers. There's nothing worse than opening up the douser only to find a saturated yellow when you wanted an open white.


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## punktech (Feb 3, 2008)

all this talk of [CLEAR]...that button terrifies me, i know exactly what it does, and i've used it many times, but there's always that moment of hesitation: "maybe this time i press it, it WILL erase everything!!!". i inherited this fear from my predecessor at my school. i don't know why either of us have it either, i guess it's like a fear of flying or something, something rather illogical...

sorry about the digression...


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## Charc (Feb 3, 2008)

punktech said:


> all this talk of [CLEAR]...that button terrifies me, i know exactly what it does, and i've used it many times, but there's always that moment of hesitation: "maybe this time i press it, it WILL erase everything!!!". i inherited this fear from my predecessor at my school. i don't know why either of us have it either, i guess it's like a fear of flying or something, something rather illogical...
> sorry about the digression...



My fear comes from [DELETE]. [CLEAR] and I are on good terms, I've never used [SAVE] though.


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## derekleffew (Feb 3, 2008)

Funny thing about that, punktech. On the WholeHogII, the [Clear] button is the most used key of all. I've seen many with the printing worn completely off. By the way [Pig][Clear] reverses the action. 

Most consoles have an [Undo] key. The grandMA has the [Oops] key, which one can use to undo the past twenty actions. The Light Palette asks "Are you sure?" But just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're NOT out to get you!


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## derekleffew (Feb 3, 2008)

charcoaldabs said:


> ...I've never used [SAVE] though...


You've never Saved (onto portable media) a show file???!!!


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## Charc (Feb 3, 2008)

derekleffew said:


> You've never Saved (onto portable media) a show file???!!!



Even if I did have a copy of the show file, where the hell am I going to get a spare Strand 300 before curtain?

(Yes, yes I know there are multiple good reasons for saving the show.)


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## gafftaper (Feb 3, 2008)

charcoaldabs said:


> Even if I did have a copy of the show file, where the hell am I going to get a spare Strand 300 before curtain?
> (Yes, yes I know there are multiple good reasons for saving the show.)



Um Charc, what if the file gets corrupted but the console is fine? 

SAVE save early save often!!!!


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## SteveB (Feb 3, 2008)

charcoaldabs said:


> Even if I did have a copy of the show file, where the hell am I going to get a spare Strand 300 before curtain?
> (Yes, yes I know there are multiple good reasons for saving the show.)



Save anyway. It's a habit you absolutely need to develop.

I believe you can take a Strand 300 file, if it's in the same format as a 500 series file, use Strand Showport to convert to USITT ASCII, then import ASCII to Expression Off-Line and convert to Express/ion format. I've done this twice as 500 files to Express/Emphasis, with success. The import changed all the times to have an Up time of XX with a down time of zero, but it was an easy fix.

Steve B.


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## Grog12 (Feb 3, 2008)

derekleffew said:


> Yeah I miss your ma too. (!)




charcoaldabs said:


> I've never used [SAVE] though.



I should slap the taste out of both of you for these quotes. Instead I will just laugh.


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## derekleffew (Feb 3, 2008)

Grog12 said:


> I should slap the taste out of both of you for these quotes. Instead I will just laugh.


That assumes either of us have any taste to begin with. Gafftaper, how do you think we'd taste? I think I'd be "old and tough;" whereas Charc would be "young, tender, and juicy, but not much meat on him." Eating (cute, furry, endangered) animals IS cannibalism, but they taste sooooo good!


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## TimMiller (Feb 3, 2008)

On the hog consoles, i program the show in tracking. When i go back to edit i take it out of tracking. I have had it change to many variables down the cue list before. Such as when there is supposed to be a spot, it now has a gobo in it. And i'm like what the hell, i just wanted a gobo in one scene, not for it to track all the way down.


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## Grog12 (Feb 3, 2008)

TimMiller said:


> On the hog consoles, i program the show in tracking. When i go back to edit i take it out of tracking. I have had it change to many variables down the cue list before. Such as when there is supposed to be a spot, it now has a gobo in it. And i'm like what the hell, i just wanted a gobo in one scene, not for it to track all the way down.


And thus we learn the importance of Hard or Block cues.

Derek I think charc is probably overcooked....I mean he does have charcoal in his name


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## derekleffew (Feb 3, 2008)

Good advice, TimMiller. Even (especially) on a tracking console [Q-only] is a good friend. Of course, if you have proper blocking cues([pig][record], All-Fade, CleanUP, whatever your console calls them) your unwanted changes won't get Too Far out of hand.


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## Charc (Feb 3, 2008)

I knew some-things shouldn't be admitted online...

I'll go get some floppies... They're reusable, right? Shouldn't be too hard for me to archive the show after major changes.

Back to topic:

Tim, I think that's great advice, especially for a situation like mine, where one person (might) be thinking in tracking, while the other thinks in cue-only.


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## TimMiller (Feb 4, 2008)

Also another trick i do is save constantly, but every time i save i rotate out around about 3 disks, so i have a level of undo incase of a console crash, or a major oops. I usually get my patch done and save that to a disk. That disk gets set aside and possibly filed, dep ond venue and show, and how much of their house instruments i am using. I then stick in my second disk and begin to program the show. After a cue or two, or while there is a little time i save the show. I the swap out disks and begin rotating them. After the show is programmed and ready, i then save the show across all three disks incase on fails. I keep two under the console and one in the truck.


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## soundman (Feb 4, 2008)

After the show opens I like to burn a CD with the show file on it. Even if the board can not read CDs. In my experience floppys will die at the drop of a hat but CDs will last forever. Luckily our sound cue computer has both types of drives so getting the data back on a floppy disk is easy.


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## icewolf08 (Feb 4, 2008)

Taking us back a few posts on account of yesterday (sunday) was an awesome ski day here, and up at Snowbird I think I skied in snow above me knees all day!


Footer4321 said:


> I much prefer the undo key in that type of situations. I might have them change 9 things, then its as simple as undo... blah blah blah...


Undo does not "release" channels as-it-were. You will notice that when you use the Undo button, at least on a Strand, the channel will go back to it's previous lever, but will remain in red, thus, if you were to say hit the GO button, the channel would not move.


charcoaldabs said:


> So if I have a channel grabbed and hit [Shift], that is the same as "releasing a channel"? Doesn't [Clear] do the same thing? What is the difference, especially with [Shift] [Clear]? How do these interact with tracking? Does one just stop "holding" the channel, and the other lets it go, and revert back to it's previously recorded(or tracked) level?
> Sorry to drag this off topic slightly.


[SHIFT][CLEAR] is different than [CLEAR] alone. By default [SHIFT][CLEAR] will clear the entire command line, useful. If the command line is clear then hitting [SHIFT][CLEAR] will "release" any captured channels, meaning that any channel that was turned red will go back to a normal color (though I think the usually go back to cyan). This means that when you hit GO everything will fade to it's next level.

Oh, and charc, I am with everyone: SAVE YOUR SHOWS. Even if you don't go to floppy, I would recommend saving a new showfile to the hard drive each day you work on it. That way you can always go back a day, and if the newest file gets corrupted you only loose a day's work, not the entire show.


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## Grog12 (Feb 4, 2008)

icewolf08 said:


> Taking us back a few posts on account of yesterday (sunday) was an awesome ski day here, and up at Snowbird I think I skied in snow above me knees all day!
> .


I hate you.
I'm stuck in Florida missing the best ski days of the past 28 years.


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## sclausenETC (Feb 4, 2008)

Ok, I wasn't going to jump into this, but I can't help myself. 
First off, always save your shows. Always. For all the reasons mentioned here. Please.
Back to the original subject...
And a word about my console of choice most of the time, since it was called out by name - the Congo. Congo is a preset style console, specifically for Intensity. _Preset is a console philosophy, like tracking. In a Preset system, basically, all values are recorded into each cue, instead of recording only the moving values. "Cue Only" is a recording term used on tracking consoles, just like "Track" is often a recording term used on both Tracking and Preset consoles. Preset consoles often offer "Track Editing" which is not the same as being a Tracking console, just like setting a Tracking console to "Cue Only" mode does not make it a Preset console. Whew..._
As far as LTP parameters are concerned in Congo, you can choose how you prefer to have them recorded - preset style or tracking style. In my case, I prefer to have them record as tracking data, most of the time. You see, tracking and cue only are RECORDING concepts and they can greatly impact how you edit your show data later on. If you are working sequentially, then tracking makes perfect sense. If, however, you work in a non-sequential way, having to manage all those block cues can be just as annoying as having to make an edit across a number of record targets. Congo offers track editing for intensity and for moving light parameters, even though it's a preset console. Most preset consoles offer some kind of track editing to make those multi-cue edits easier, just as tracking consoles offer cue-only editing for those times where an edit is a one-off in the cue list.
In general, most folks aren't taught, nor do they inherently understand the difference between tracking and preset consoles, or why one is better for some things than others. They each have their place, and each have strengths and weaknesses. And, if you have moved from one console type to another without really understanding why they're different, you probably thought "this console just doesn't think the way I do" and you swore never to use one again. Or if you have had to use one in a situation where the other would have been the better choice, you probably said the same thing. 
The best thing to do is to learn how your console wants to work - what its core philosophy is (or if you are shopping, get to know that core philosophy of all the consoles you are looking at). That way, you'll have a better idea if the way you work is in fact the same as the way the console works. I grew up on Expression consoles - so, even though I know how tracking consoles work, they very often drive me nuts - unless I'm working on an event that really benefits from track editing. Even though you say the console thinks the way you do, I offer that it's often the other way around. Whatever you learned on, or whichever console you grew to love, that's what determines your method of working. There is value in understanding all philosophies. 
(FYI, I use Congo's preset nature to the Nth degree - I often re-use my presets within the same cue list, so track editing in that case can actually cause me real problems due to context. Your mileage may vary.)
This is my $0.02, and its a subject that I take to heart as a console developer. Thanks for listening...
Sarah


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## porkchop (Feb 19, 2008)

Ok i work in the industry but my major in college is computers, I love technology but in the end it fails, usually at the worst possible time. I've been known to be lazy and not save the show EVERY night before going home but I wouldn't think of not saving most days. I also agree with Tim's method of multiple disks but for a different reason.

Case and point, in high school we left one night save the show onto a disk that we left in the console. Shut it off and went home, we had some serious problems with power fluctuation in the building that night and when we returned to work the next day we found out that the console was cleared because the back up battery was dead, and that somehow in the power fluctuations the console and managed to WIPE the floppy clean, we had to rebuild the show oh and did i mention this is thursday before a friday opening. Fun time let me tell you rebuilding a show with ML's on a crappy Innovator 48/96. So let me repeat what has been said save SAVE SAVE!!!!!!! and then save again.

So this thread is about Tracking vs. Cue-only right? I learned tracking it's how I think, and I like it. My first thought actually has nothing to do with the operator, tracking minimizes the amount of thought the board has to do. Think about it, if you have 50 channels up and you just want to move a ML from focus point A to focus point B in tracking all the board has to do (and all that is saved into memory aka the part you care about) is the change in pan and tilt of that ML, in Q only the board saves EVERYTHING which doesn't make sense from a memory management perspective. 

Now that I am don't being a computer nerd for the moment there also the fact that in my design experience tracking comes in handy especially after I've written the cues. All the time I go back and decide, well thats not really the speed i want the gobo to be rotating or, maybe they need a little more light in area X, my changes tend to last the whole scene and with tracking its a matter of changing one or at most two cues where in Q only who knows how long i'll be typing the same command in.

Wow thats long. Theres my two cents


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## derekleffew (Feb 19, 2008)

porkchop said:


> ...My first thought actually has nothing to do with the operator, tracking minimizes the amount of thought the board has to do. Think about it, if you have 50 channels up and you just want to move a ML from focus point A to focus point B in tracking all the board has to do (and all that is saved into memory aka the part you care about) is the change in pan and tilt of that ML, in Q only the board saves EVERYTHING which doesn't make sense from a memory management perspective. ...


Interesting point there, porkchop. But the user should not need to concern himself with the console's memory management. In 1979, when the Light Palette was launched, the board would give memory available as a percentage, not the number of cues, since the console only recorded the changes, number of possible cues remaining couldn't be determined, as obviously a cue that has one channel moving requires less information than one with all channels moving. Many users did not like this, and wanted to know exactly how many cues they had remaining. Light Palette used 5 1/4" floppies. Early ETC boards had a hard limit of cues they could have, and the 3.5" disks stored two, and later five, shows per disk, many times loading the second act (next show) at intermission.

Today's consoles should be able to handle anything asked of them. One console of the past, which had an [odd] key and an [even] key: Record all the [odd] channels at a level in a cue; in the next cue, crossfade all the odd channels out and the [even] channels up. The processor would overload and crash every single time. Not something one would ever use in the real world, but interesting none the less.

When it comes down to it, a lighting console is merely a fast, arithmetic calculator. It outputs dimmer levels at a refresh rate of 44 times/second. During a fade, it looks at where dimmers are, and where they're desired to be in the time spec'd, and calculates what the dimmer levels should be, just a relatively fast multiplying machine. With the advent of shape generators for moving lights, simple geometric formulae have been added, but it's still a pretty dumb machine. Generating and sending 512x 8bit levels at 44Hz is simple; it's the operator interface that uses most of the horsepower.


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## porkchop (Feb 19, 2008)

I knew going in that a modern console could handle the memory requirements pretty easily, I said it mostly for one of those things to think about a little quick math, and if you had 128 channels patched (seems low but the math works out well), assuming a 16 bit stream (8 for address 8 for level) 1.44 MB / 16 bit channel = ~750000 channel changes allowing room for overhead even in Q only thats over 5800 cues. If you have that many cues in a show that's just rediculous. So yah in closing the math point was mostly just a "I bet no one thought of this although some of the older guys might have had to deal with it way back in the day" kind of things. In retrospect the people that dealt with it were computer engineers so we didn't have to.......

oh yah. Have you saved you show yet?????


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## derekleffew (Jun 6, 2008)

charcoaldabs said:


> Even if I did have a copy of the show file, where the hell am I going to get a spare Strand 300 before curtain?...


So I just found this quote on another forum (Eos) and thought of Charc:
"On that same note, is there a way to have the console automatically save a backup copy of the show to the USB key whenever the show file is written to? Try as I might to get students to save to both on a regular basis, it never quite seems to happen. 

Matt Farrow
Technical Supervisor / Ithaca College"


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## icewolf08 (Jun 6, 2008)

derekleffew said:


> So I just found this quote on another forum (Eos) and thought of Charc:
> "On that same note, is there a way to have the console automatically save a backup copy of the show to the USB key whenever the show file is written to? Try as I might to get students to save to both on a regular basis, it never quite seems to happen.
> 
> Matt Farrow
> Technical Supervisor / Ithaca College"



Oh Matt, I went to school with him, great guy (we should get him on CB). We didn't have any issues with people not saving when i was there (might have had something to do with the Obsession II and Expression I never being reliable at all!). However, telling the console to effectively make a sort of RAID arrangement with a connected USB device is probably a little hard. Plus, what happens if someone takes the USB device out, or forgets to put it in?


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## mbenonis (Jun 6, 2008)

Cue Only never really made sense to me...I remember always fighting with my Express console back in high school when I wanted to make a change, and then I realized I'd have to re-do every cue (or try to understand its wacky track "feature").

I used an Obsession (serial number 000008, btw) this past year as the board op for a show - I'd never go back to anything else. It "just makes sense" to me.


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## derekleffew (Jun 6, 2008)

As I've said before, those who grew up using piano boards/manual dimmers think in "tracking," while those who learned on multi-scene preset consoles prefer "preset style". On an Express(ion), just learn to use the <Track> key instead of <Record>.


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## Wolf (Jun 6, 2008)

I like tracking for the most part. If you need to rest and start from ground zero with the next cue just clear everything out. I only find it troublesome when someone is not used to thinking with tracking while programing. Also if you design with subs on some boards when you make that cue your in that cue and the subs wont work then, but if you use groups its fine.


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