# Getting a new lighting system for a high school auditorium



## millershswtechcrew (Mar 24, 2014)

I am a high school student, and my schools lighting system in our auditorium is very out of date, and almost non-functioning. It is from *1972*!!!!!!!! YES no joke. It is an LMI system with a 30 channel 2 scene board. The fact that we still have a few channels working is a miracle. We have very little functioning lighting left, and we are in a 1,200 seat auditorium. We usually rent in over $3000 worth of equipment for our musicals. we have tried to show our administrators that the system is so out of date, and that it is not in good shape. a few years back, we had an electrician come in and look at our system, and he deemed it dangerous and I'm pretty sure we haven't been up to code in awhile. Our administrators and school board won't listen, and they dont understand. we understand that a new system is very expensive, but we desperately need an upgrade. my question to you is how do we convince our school board that we need to upgrade to save our auditorium? if you have any suggestions on how to go about making them understand the situation and getting them in the right direction towards a new system, it would be a great help. did anyone else go through something similar? Any suggestions welcomed. ( I will get pics up ASAP)


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## scotteckers (Mar 24, 2014)

millershswtechcrew said:


> I am a high school student, and my schools lighting system in our auditorium is very out of date, and almost non-functioning. It is from *1972*!!!!!!!! YES no joke. It is an LMI system with a 30 channel 2 scene board.  The fact that we still have a few channels working is a miracle. We have very little functioning lighting left, and we are in a 1,200 seat auditorium. We usually rent in over $3000 worth of equipment for our musicals. we have tried to show our administrators that the system is so out of date, and that it is not in good shape. a few years back, we had an electrician come in and look at our system, and he deemed it dangerous and I'm pretty sure we haven't been up to code in awhile. Our administrators and school board won't listen, and they dont understand. we understand that a new system is very expensive, but we desperately need an upgrade. my question to you is how do we convince our school board that we need to upgrade to save our auditorium? if you have any suggestions on how to go about making them understand the situation and getting them in the right direction towards a new system, it would be a great help. did anyone else go through something similar? Any suggestions welcomed. ( I will get pics up ASAP)


You can start by stressing the safety issue, although unless your system has been modified, most 1972 school installations are actually quite "safe". You are surprised that your old system is still in use... you wouldn't believe how many systems are still used that are older...

Second, you can stress the unbelievable savings. Spending $3,000 a year on rental lighting is insane. In just a few years, you can have the nuts and bolts of a more modern system.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Mar 24, 2014)

The average high school theatre lighting system is around a quarter million dollars all in. Sure you can whittle that but not really halve it and be very happy. It is possible the LMI dimmers can be restored in place. We've had good luck arranging that for some clients. At the same time make sure the DMX in is reliable and on distributing DMX. Add a console - an Element class would be a big step up but everyone is going to want an Ion class in a few years. And then pick away on fixtures, changing backdrop to LED first and spreading the surplus circuits to the FOH. There will be dimmer and/or circuit modifications as part of a slow change over to more LED. I think you would benefit by having a consultant that can balance the view and interests of a single vendor but that's another thread.

You probably need parents - like ones that are not shy - to lobby the school board and administrators to make this happen. As a student, you are only there for a few years, don't vote or pay taxes, and generally are least able to influence policy and budget priorities.


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## DavidNorth (Mar 24, 2014)

millershswtechcrew said:


> I am a high school student, and my schools lighting system in our auditorium is very out of date, and almost non-functioning. It is from *1972*!!!!!!!! YES no joke. It is an LMI system with a 30 channel 2 scene board. The fact that we still have a few channels working is a miracle. Any suggestions welcomed. ( I will get pics up ASAP)


 
That's interesting as I am not sure LMI was around in 1972. If you wouldn't mind telling me what school you are in or posting those pictures, I might be able to tell you more about the system and whether it should be upgraded or replaced.

Safety is always a good way to work on system replacement, but be careful as they may just decide to close down the facility as well. It is highly likely that system upgrades could be economically performed while saving the cost of rentals. If they are funding the rentals, they will likely not shut down the facility.

David


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## microstar (Mar 24, 2014)

1972!!!!!! I've got undershirts older than that.
Be careful when you ask for help, you may not realize what old really is!


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## balderson04 (Mar 24, 2014)

BillConnerASTC said:


> The average high school theatre lighting system is around a quarter million dollars all in.



Really?

I am constantly struck by the different emphasis between U.S. and Canadian scholastic models. I'd venture that the average high school theatre lighting installation in Canada doesn't reach $10,000 (Canadian). Most newer schools simply have a half-dozen fixed profile spots (sometimes even Par cans) bolted to the ceiling of the gymna-cafe-torium with, perhaps, a two-scene pre-set board.

There are exceptions, but very few. In my county, there is only one school that actually has a "theatrically" laid-out auditorium and that's only because the community did it. And the school board went along when they realized they could make money from rentals.

But, then, I'm cynical.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Mar 24, 2014)

balderson04 said:


> Really?
> 
> I am constantly struck by the different emphasis between U.S. and Canadian scholastic models. I'd venture that the average high school theatre lighting installation in Canada doesn't reach $10,000 (Canadian). Most newer schools simply have a half-dozen fixed profile spots (sometimes even Par cans) bolted to the ceiling of the gymna-cafe-torium with, perhaps, a two-scene pre-set board.
> 
> ...



It's all in - lights, dimmers, controls, wiring, etc - and doesn't actually include havc or dimmer room costs - and based on data from a major manufacturer of many thousands of high schools - 2 racks, small architectural control system, modest console, and 80 or so units. My projects are typically about 50% larger - 3 racks, and 120-150 fixtures - but we're talking average. I'm refraining from naming a manufacturer but will tell you more off line. Yes, there are a number of US high schools who theaters are more like a small PAC.

PS - and not at all related - you do have much better parks for canoeing which I really appreciate! Thanks. I hope to try out more.


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## Les (Mar 24, 2014)

Bill is not exaggerating. I can't name a single high school in my area with less than 192 dimmers (with just about enough lights to fill them) + an entirely separate studio/blackbox space. 

I also agree about not making the place sound like a death trap. In reality, it probably isn't regardless of what an electrician said (kinda like asking a barber for a haircut). Now you mention lighting, but what about sound, rigging, and all that. Odds are, they would want to do everything at once which will take several years through the approval and funding process. 

I don't want to sound all negative... Just... These changes only ever happen over the course of years. Unless they've already been pursuing it for a while, there's probably a long road ahead. 

Contact ETC about those LMI dimmers, and see if you can get your control worked out. That'll make a huge difference right there. See if your teacher/sponsor can get a consultant or experienced TD to walk the space. That's who you really want to assess things. Electricians have interest in selling jobs so you have to be careful there. Does your district have an electrician who can walk the space and give an unbiased review?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## lwinters630 (Mar 25, 2014)

Safety can also include asbestosis. Those white cords on the fixtures. There are often grants for them, which can involve the "whole" system.


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## AudJ (Mar 25, 2014)

Not positive where you are, but at least in New York State, the process for entering an item on a capital improvement project is a multi-step process. Getting an item like this outside of capitol improvement is extremely unlikely, due to the cost. Items for capitol improvement are put on a list in the following order:

1. Audit by architects. This is mandatory every few years. Architects tour the buildings and point out things they think need to be done in the next period of time (3 years?). You will likely never know when the audit is completed, and they only list building-crucial items (such as masonry, roofs, etc.) out-of-date items, safety issues, and items to improve the educational setting. In my experience, their idea of a safety issue on stage is limited to the knowledge of that particular architect, and generally ignored unless something is actually visually phisically falling apart, and poses an immediate danger. An item is out-of-date if the school has actually outgrown the capabilities of an installed system. (Computer network from the 1990's for example)

2. Needs as requested by administration. This is where anything can make the list, but has to be deemed worthy by one person, who generally has his/her own agenda. If an item on this list is noted as a safety concern, that does not make the architect't audit, it will be highly questioned for validity.

3. All of the items are prioritized by essentials and non-essentials. This process involves the whole distinct, and a lot of politics.

Once the list is completed, an estimate is applied, and the Board of Education decides what funding level they wish to grant. They scrutinize the list, and basically arrive at a cut-off point on the list based on funding. Capital project is planned and completed, which usually takes 2 to 3 years, in addition to the years it took to develop the list in the first place. Items that are not completed on a particular project are rolled over to the next list, but have to be re-prioritized. 

It would be far easier to repair the current issue, however if you do that, you could end up removing the justification for replacement if your system is already somewhere in this process. Full replacement of the system would take longer than you will be in high school, unless there is a catastrophic event causing safety concerns, or the process has already been initiated, and the system will be replaced soon.

In short, as a high school student, I would recommend speaking to the adults in charge, and get more information. There is probably a reason they are spending a lot each year, rather than looking for the repair.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Mar 25, 2014)

Just to emphasize - most dimmers starting with the CD80 are basically all the same: SSR pack, choke, circuit breaker, and a bunch of copper. (OK - so a few may include aluminum - I'm sorry.) That and the box is probably 90% of the cost. Keep it clean which will keep it cool and they'll last longer than the manufacturers wished. The electronics - CEM or whatever name you prefer - do wear out but because of that there is an impressive array of retrofit products. And consoles have usually had it after 5-10 years.

I managed a 20 year old 5 rack project that was having problems and they received a quote of over $400,000 to replace. For under $50,000 it was like new and probably good for another 10 -20 years at least - extensive custom architectural controls and all. They appreciated they could replace curtains, buy new focusing units, and fix a bunch of other stuff with the balance - including a pair of new IONs.


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## millershswtechcrew (Mar 26, 2014)

Heres the pictures of the board i will try and get a picture of the dimmer packs and patching areas.


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## millershswtechcrew (Mar 26, 2014)

AudJ said:


> Not positive where you are, but at least in New York State, the process for entering an item on a capital improvement project is a multi-step process. Getting an item like this outside of capitol improvement is extremely unlikely, due to the cost. Items for capitol improvement are put on a list in the following order:
> 
> 1. Audit by architects. This is mandatory every few years. Architects tour the buildings and point out things they think need to be done in the next period of time (3 years?). You will likely never know when the audit is completed, and they only list building-crucial items (such as masonry, roofs, etc.) out-of-date items, safety issues, and items to improve the educational setting. In my experience, their idea of a safety issue on stage is limited to the knowledge of that particular architect, and generally ignored unless something is actually visually phisically falling apart, and poses an immediate danger. An item is out-of-date if the school has actually outgrown the capabilities of an installed system. (Computer network from the 1990's for example)
> 
> ...




I am in New York, the Long Island Area. I believe my school has one of the oldest working systems on the island. And my TD is having a friend of his come in to repair some of our dimmer packs, so at least we'll have a few more dimmers...


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## BillConnerFASTC (Mar 26, 2014)

If you're on Long Island, Lite-trol is the obvious choice. If anyone can make the system first class again, they can.


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## SteveB (Mar 26, 2014)

Agree with Bill. Call Litetrol, they're in Hicksville so are close by. They know this type of system and do service calls like this all the time, it's they're business (they've probably been there already in years past), they have the parts to fix what you have and one of the guys used to work for LMI, so they know this stuff inside and out. 516 681 5288.

The console dates itself to probably mid 80's. So the dimmers are probably similar vintage and not DMX (the console is not). The LMI dimmers are great dimmers and probably don't need replacing, just service. A digital to analog convertor would allow the dimmers to work with a new console, which is needed, the ETC Element or Ion are good choices. 




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## DavidNorth (Mar 26, 2014)

Yes, that is an LMI CH2 console with 36 analog channels. It is from the 80s and runs 0-10vdc PWM unless it has the very optional Gyrator Buffer boards to remove the PWM and convert it to standard 0-10vdc. No reason to worry about that unless for some very odd reason you need to convert the console to DMX. Most places will get a new console and convert the dimmers to DMX.

It would be good to see the dimmer pics as we can give you some ideas for repair, conversion or replacement as needed. Lite-Trol is definitely your best bet.

David


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## millershswtechcrew (Mar 28, 2014)

DavidNorth said:


> Yes, that is an LMI CH2 console with 36 analog channels. It is from the 80s and runs 0-10vdc PWM unless it has the very optional Gyrator Buffer boards to remove the PWM and convert it to standard 0-10vdc. No reason to worry about that unless for some very odd reason you need to convert the console to DMX. Most places will get a new console and convert the dimmers to DMX.
> 
> It would be good to see the dimmer pics as we can give you some ideas for repair, conversion or replacement as needed. Lite-Trol is definitely your best bet.
> 
> David


 
Thanks David!

Its interesting that you say that this is from the 80s.... i always thought that this was from the mid 70's but i guess i was wrong LOL! ... i will have to double check with my TD but then again, he could be wrong. I will look into contacting Litetrol about converting the dimmers, sounds like it could be a great option for us while we work on getting a full upgrade. thanks for all the input.


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## BobHealey (Mar 28, 2014)

Just what are you renting for $3000/year? I know things can add up fast when building a rental list, but that still seems like a lot. Do you use any of the existing gear or are you replacing all of it? What specifically isn't working? Do all the fixtures work, but only certain dimmers, or is it a combination of both?


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## millershswtechcrew (Mar 28, 2014)

BobHealey said:


> Just what are you renting for $3000/year? I know things can add up fast when building a rental list, but that still seems like a lot. Do you use any of the existing gear or are you replacing all of it? What specifically isn't working? Do all the fixtures work, but only certain dimmers, or is it a combination of both?




Its a little of both, most of our fixtures are broken, we have a decent amount of dimmers in tact, but they're scattered, so we use up alot of that $ on fixtures, plus renting in an ETC console and we usually end up having to rent in LED's and other more expensive fixtures. So we only really use our dimmers and the few remaining working channels on the LMI console. we dont have a single source four in our auditorium so we have to rent in all conventional fixtures + special FX/ DMX controlled fixtures. but 60-70% of our budget goes to conventional lighting.


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## josh88 (Mar 28, 2014)

It sounds like some of your money would be well spent fixing some of your broken fixtures then. You may be able to reduce the over all expenses.


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## BobHealey (Mar 29, 2014)

You'd be surprised what you can do with with functional non-Source 4s. The only time I get to play with them is the rare occasion I rent one to use a glass gobo. Otherwise, its all Altman 360Q for front lighting. It gets the job done. The powers that be regard Source 4 lens options as too confusing compared to a 360Q and the Source 4 as good for nothing but destroying gel quickly, so I make due with what's there. 24' x 24' stage. 

I would count all your fixtures, by type/lens and try to figure out what is wrong with them. Some things can be solved with rather inexpensive parts, or just time and a screw driver, or a new lamp.


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## vanlemay (Jul 16, 2015)

millershswtechcrew said:


> I am a high school student, and my schools lighting system in our auditorium is very out of date, and almost non-functioning. It is from *1972*!!!!!!!! YES no joke. It is an LMI system with a 30 channel 2 scene board. The fact that we still have a few channels working is a miracle. We have very little functioning lighting left, and we are in a 1,200 seat auditorium. We usually rent in over $3000 worth of equipment for our musicals. we have tried to show our administrators that the system is so out of date, and that it is not in good shape. a few years back, we had an electrician come in and look at our system, and he deemed it dangerous and I'm pretty sure we haven't been up to code in awhile. Our administrators and school board won't listen, and they dont understand. we understand that a new system is very expensive, but we desperately need an upgrade. my question to you is how do we convince our school board that we need to upgrade to save our auditorium? if you have any suggestions on how to go about making them understand the situation and getting them in the right direction towards a new system, it would be a great help. did anyone else go through something similar? Any suggestions welcomed. ( I will get pics up ASAP)


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