# New Style "Rigging" for Geni Lift!



## MPowers (Nov 14, 2011)

Just thought I'd toss this out to show some "innovative" solutions to use of a geni. 
BTW boys and girls, don't do this at home. This picture is a "How NOT to do it".

Just in case some people don't grasp the purpose of the ratchet straps, they lift the outriggers up against the switches so you can go up and down without cranking down the foot pads and so you don't have to lift and reset the food pads to move the geni.

<img style="border:none" alt="Bad Rigging 2.JPG">


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## shiben (Nov 14, 2011)

Oh thats not how you do it? Hypothetically speaking, however, why not stick some sort of caster under the outrigger and weld it to the pad? I guess I have never understood why that would be a bad idea, although I know its discouraged... Obviously not recommending it but rather just curious.


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## erosing (Nov 14, 2011)

shiben said:


> Oh thats not how you do it? Hypothetically speaking, however, why not stick some sort of caster under the outrigger and weld it to the pad? I guess I have never understood why that would be a bad idea, although I know its discouraged... Obviously not recommending it but rather just curious.


 
Well, it screws up the sensors a lot for one due to the pressure and people mistreating it (on the two lifts I've seen this way). It's also very difficult to get it parallel to the floor, as in it's near impossible for it to be level but it doesn't show until its extended. It also gives the unit a larger footprint and obviously, less friction. Those factors have contributed to more than one near miss.


EDIT: It should be noted that I certainly don't suggest or support the implementation but I do use it from time to time.


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## shiben (Nov 14, 2011)

Arez said:


> Well, it screws up the sensors a lot for one due to the pressure and people mistreating it (on the two lifts I've seen this way). It's also very difficult to get it parallel to the floor, as in it's near impossible for it to be level but it doesn't show until its extended.


 
That makes some sense. I know its not recommended, but wondered why, as it would probably cut down on lifting with the outriggers in and then pulling them and pushing people around while lifted...


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## techieman33 (Nov 14, 2011)

You mean people use out riggers?


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## Footer (Nov 14, 2011)

shiben said:


> That makes some sense. I know its not recommended, but wondered why, as it would probably cut down on lifting with the outriggers in and then pulling them and pushing people around while lifted...


 

*******As a climb on on my horse that happens to be rather high***********
If you need a genie that moves while in the air, buy a Runabout or a scissor lift. If you have a traditional AWP lift as pictured and need to move in the air, you can't. 

If you fall and die using a genie lift that has casters under the wheels, genie will not back you nor will your insurance company. If I made that modification at work, our workmans comp insurance would be pulled and we would be shut down. Putting wheels under the outriggers is kind of like securing your seatbelt with fishing line... sure it makes you feel better that it is there but it does nothing for you when you need it.


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## shiben (Nov 15, 2011)

Footer said:


> *******As a climb on on my horse that happens to be rather high***********
> If you need a genie that moves while in the air, buy a Runabout or a scissor lift. If you have a traditional AWP lift as pictured and need to move in the air, you can't.
> 
> If you fall and die using a genie lift that has casters under the wheels, genie will not back you nor will your insurance company. If I made that modification at work, our workmans comp insurance would be pulled and we would be shut down. Putting wheels under the outriggers is kind of like securing your seatbelt with fishing line... sure it makes you feel better that it is there but it does nothing for you when you need it.


 
I believe you are missing the point. Obviously there is some sort of issue with it, because they dont do it. Obviously you wont be covered. Obviously you can die. The question is Why, not What. Why does Genie not put wheels under the outriggers? What good, solid, physics reason is there? Again, I am not saying this is a good idea. I am asking why they dont do it because im curious, not because I intend to do it. Because its dangerous or because they roll is sort of silly, as it really does not answer the question. Securing a seatbelt with fish line is clearly a bad idea, as the fish line breaks at what, 40 lbs, some 100 times less than encountered in a car accident (maybe more force is involved, I dont know). But I feel like if the issue is the leg rolling out from under the falling tower, the leg would have been compromised and having a wheel-less leg is no better, right? Or am I missing something? I saw the picture and started thinking about why this is, and wanted to find out more, not go build an unsafe lift.


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## Les (Nov 15, 2011)

shiben said:


> I believe you are missing the point. Obviously there is some sort of issue with it, because they dont do it. Obviously you wont be covered. Obviously you can die. The question is Why, not What. Why does Genie not put wheels under the outriggers? What good, solid, physics reason is there? Again, I am not saying this is a good idea. I am asking why they dont do it because im curious, not because I intend to do it. Because its dangerous or because they roll is sort of silly, as it really does not answer the question. Securing a seatbelt with fish line is clearly a bad idea, as the fish line breaks at what, 40 lbs, some 100 times less than encountered in a car accident (maybe more force is involved, I dont know). But I feel like if the issue is the leg rolling out from under the falling tower, the leg would have been compromised and having a wheel-less leg is no better, right? Or am I missing something? I saw the picture and started thinking about why this is, and wanted to find out more, not go build an unsafe lift.



Only a guess, but it could have something to do with the small footprint of the lift. Sudden starts and stops could tip it, not to mention having the lift roll on inclines and imperfections on the floor. A scissor or other drivable lift will have automatic hydraulic or electric brakes to prevent this. Sure, you could have some really excellent braking casters, but there would be too much liability and guesswork in deciding when the user should and shouldn't use them. Most users would probably not lock them when they should. So they put limits on the equipment instead of gambling on the operator making the correct call. 

My money is on the lifts small footprint being the major deciding factor. It doesn't take too much to get them shaking, and too much sway and over you go. Keep in mind also that they have to assume that there may one day be a 300# guy and a bunch of tools in a fully-extended lift on a slightly inclined floor.


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## chausman (Nov 15, 2011)

shiben said:


> I believe you are missing the point. Obviously there is some sort of issue with it, because they dont do it. Obviously you wont be covered. Obviously you can die. The question is Why, not What. Why does Genie not put wheels under the outriggers? What good, solid, physics reason is there? Again, I am not saying this is a good idea. I am asking why they dont do it because im curious, not because I intend to do it.


 
If you have castors instead of flat outriggers, there is nothing to keep the genie where it is.

EDIT: I need to pick card games or CB...replying way to late...


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## mstaylor (Nov 15, 2011)

What is the purpose of an outrigger? To keep the lift in one spot and to make it stable. By putting casters under the outriggers, just say the friction to weight ratio will be off.


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## Chris15 (Nov 15, 2011)

For a start, a caster will present as a point load to the floor. An outrigger's pad will distribute that load over a broader area...

That might be the difference between punching through the floor or having the floor taking the weight when the lift starts to tip...


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## josh88 (Nov 15, 2011)

Footer said:


> *******As a climb on on my horse that happens to be rather high***********


 
Don't forget to put out the outriggers, and I wouldn't climb out of the bucket to get in the saddle ;-)


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## peacefulone61 (Jun 6, 2012)

I have seen people just rewire the genie so they no longer need the outriggers.


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## josh88 (Jun 6, 2012)

Negating the main safety point, and I think the warranty is voided as well. Not using the outriggers makes it incredibly easy to tilt and is plain dumb


Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk


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## peacefulone61 (Jun 6, 2012)

I hope darwin is watching when he uses it like that.


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## marmer (Jun 6, 2012)

Actually, I can understand why the setup pictured is done. If you have to move the lift around a lot on a floor where the pads can swivel down and snag on seams or carpet like the ones shown, and you need to go up several times, it's to be able to maneuver it in the lowered position, minimizing the removal and screwing down of the outriggers, which is both noisy and time-consuming. No way should anyone ever go up in it without the pads screwed down or be rolled around with it raised.


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## tdeater (Jun 6, 2012)

The company that does our annual inspection actually recommended to us that we glue carpet to the bottom of the 4 outrigger feet to "protect our floor". He claimed that was allowed. So, on our flat stage, if someone happened to "forget" to tighten the outriggers down all the way, you can slide the genie around and still have 4 green outrigger lights. Not that we would eeeevvvveerrrrrrr do that............. Myself, I don't like heights, so it is cranked down when I am on it. Of course carpet slides a lot better than the rubber pads, so it does not do much for keeping it in place.


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## DuckJordan (Jun 6, 2012)

We got some plastic circles, put them on the bottom of the pads. So there is pressure on the floor from the lift but you can still slide it around. Talked with our genie dealer and he said it is perfectly safe..


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## rochem (Jun 6, 2012)

DuckJordan said:


> We got some plastic circles, put them on the bottom of the pads. So there is pressure on the floor from the lift but you can still slide it around. Talked with our genie dealer and he said it is perfectly safe..



I'd be very cautious about using your Genie dealer's word as a reliable source. While you and I and most other people reading this would probably be comfortable with this, something tells me that if an incident does occur, Genie will be the first ones to step up and say "you made a modification to the equipment, so we're not liable," and unless you have that statement from your Genie dealer in writing and notarized, he's certainly not gonna stick his neck out for you. I'm not at all trying to say that you shouldn't continue to do this, but if Genie Industries thought that those plastic circles were just as safe as the current outriggers, they would have put them on themselves.


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## DuckJordan (Jun 6, 2012)

Except, theater is an odd situation. Most of our work involves a flat surface, with no slope. The genies in question where designed to be able to handle at max a 8* slope, Putting plastic feet on the pads would now allow the genie to slide. Hence no standard plastic feet. We do have a signed letter from the dealer since we are a state facility and our insurance needs everything in writing.


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## spribil (Jun 7, 2012)

Liability...it all comes down to liability. If you can get the Manufacturer to put it in writing great but that is the "only" way to keep yourself safe. Manufacturers have to make things safe for the dumbest person not the brightest. OSHA is there because of the few dumb ones.


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## marmer (Jun 7, 2012)

I wouldn't change the pads or anything about the feet. I don't want it easy for them to slide on any surface. That's why the rig shown in the picture is done, to get them high enough so that little seams or high spots in the floor won't catch the pads if they tilt down a little. And I'm always surprised how easy it is to get a green light. It would seem that you'd have to have the leg screwed down so tight that there is no play at all, but in reality there can be an inch or so of play. Sometimes that's annoying when you have four greens and you get in the basket and it tilts an inch and you lose your greens and can't go up. Of course, if you have someone with you like you're supposed to that's not such a big deal.


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## egilson1 (Jun 8, 2012)

A letter from the dealer is not the same as a letter from the manufacturer. The dealer is not a legal representative of the manufacturer, and has no legal ability to indemnify Genie from liability should something happen.

That being said, I would suggest seeing if you can get a letter from Genie directly about your situation.

Regards,
Ethan


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## BillESC (Jun 8, 2012)

Has anyone on this forum ever been sued regarding a Genie lift failure? I have to the tune of $ 125,000,000.00.

I'm have a bit of experience regarding this.


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## peacefulone61 (Jun 9, 2012)

BillESC said:


> Has anyone on this forum ever been sued regarding a Genie lift failure? I have to the tune of $ 125,000,000.00.
> 
> I'm have a bit of experience regarding this.



I have not and hope never to have it happen to me

Can i ask what happened.


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## Wood4321 (Jun 18, 2012)

Bill, 
I would love to hear exactly what happened if you are able to speak about it.
Thanks,


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## BillESC (Jun 19, 2012)

At the beginning of a summer concert in Brooklyn, NY, Curtis Mayfield went on stage despite nasty weather approaching. A wind shear that was strong enough to blow A7 Voice of the Theatre speakers off of the stage also toppled the front and rear 40 trusses. Curtis was hit by the front truss which crippled him for life.

I was named in the resulting law suite due to my "proximity" to the case. You see, I sold two of the Genie Lifts to a guy named Mark Rosenden who had a company called Stage Lights, Inc. It turns out the company was not a corporation, he just used the name because it "sounded better." He also didn't have insurance.

The shotgun law suit had everyone including the Mayor of NY, NYC Parks Department, Pepsi, Bash Stage Lighting (which sold Mark the other two Genies, etc.

The suit was finally settled out of court with Genie Industries taking a big hit which resulted in the interface between the outriggers and the operating system. 

I was eventually dropped from the suit but by then I'd incurred five grand in expenses for about $ 300.00 in profit netted in the original sale.


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