# Getting some upgrades; what should I expect?



## Tex (Aug 19, 2009)

My school is finally getting some sound upgrades. The old Soundcraft board is dying and one of the mains sounds blown so it's about time. After chasing down three quotes for a completely new system, I was informed that there was only enough money for a board and a new center cluster. 
Here's what I'm getting (I did not make this decision; it's made at the district level):
Console: Allen & Heath GL2400-32
Speakers: OAP Q-2500SP Mains-High-Mid
OAP Q-1800LP Mains-Sub
Are there any problems with this setup that I can anticipate? I've always heard that Allen and Heath boards are delicate. Is this going to be a negative factor in a high school setting? 
Please don't suggest that I buy something else. This is a done deal. I'm just looking for any problems I might encounter, or (if I'm lucky) maybe some congratulations for getting some good equipment. Although if the Colortran Innovator that I got last year is any indication, I may be in trouble!  (It's not that bad; I just wanted an Ion...)
Thanks!


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## soundlight (Aug 19, 2009)

The GL2400 is built like a tank. I've used it multiple times (each in a different place, using a different console), and it's wonderful for a board in that price range. Just about the best you could do. Don't know about OAP though, I've never used their stuff.


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## Dionysus (Aug 19, 2009)

The Allen & Heath GL2400-32 is a great board. It should work just fine.
Like with any console I highly suggest covering it when not in use, and taking what mild measures you can to keep it safe from vandals, idiots, and pop-drinkers.

As for the cabinets you said that they were just replacing the center-cluster... What are the others in operation?


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## museav (Aug 19, 2009)

Tex said:


> My school is finally getting some sound upgrades. The old Soundcraft board is dying and one of the mains sounds blown so it's about time. After chasing down three quotes for a completely new system, I was informed that there was only enough money for a board and a new center cluster.
> Here's what I'm getting (I did not make this decision; it's made at the district level):
> Console: Allen & Heath GL2400-32
> Speakers: OAP Q-2500SP Mains-High-Mid
> ...


Those could be good product selections or terrible ones, without knowing a lot more about the application and the desired goals there is no way to tell. What did you tell the firms preparing the bids? How did they arrive at these product selections? What equipment are these replacing and have you experienced any problems with those other than the apparent failures (not enough inputs, insufficient speaker coverage or output level, etc.)? Did anyone verify that the existing speaker is damaged and that it and the existing console cannot be easily repaired? What are you trying to do? What are the applications? What is the physical space like? What do you have for system processing, amps, etc.? Who is installing these? Who is going to be tuning or retuning the speaker system? Is any related cabling, rigging, hardware, etc. also being provided? Is the center cluster a standalone element or is it part of a LCR speaker system or anything like that? Are the speakers the 60x40 or 90x40 version and are they being run biamped or full range? Hopefully someone considered all of these as well as any other related factors before making any decisions.

In general, the A&H GL2400 series is a good console for the price. However, whether it fits your requirements as far as inputs and outputs, functionality, etc. is critical to determining if it is a good choice for your application.

I am more concerned about the speakers as selecting the right speakers for any application can entail considering many factors. Do they provide the right coverage for the application? The desired output and response? Do they physically work? Are they compatible with the existing processing and amplification? OAP makes some unique speakers but there are many competing products to the particular models noted and frankly, I would typically consider a number of other products first. But there may be something that makes them a particularly good fit for your application. I just hope that decision was based on how they work in the application and not just on the cost.


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## Tex (Aug 19, 2009)

museav said:


> I just hope that decision was based on how they work in the application and not just on the cost.


I'm not a sound expert by any means, but I had some of the same concerns. The firms that gave me quotes all sent out technicians who spent a couple of hours measuring, documenting and taking pictures. The firm we're going with has done other installations in the area and has a good reputation. They requested a copy of and asked lots of questions about my Vectorworks drawing of our theatre, so I'm fairly confident that the equipment recommendations were made specifically for my space. It's always hard to be sure, though. In a situation where I don't make the final decision, I'm sort of at the mercy of fate.
My main concern was the impression I had formed over the years that Allen & Heath consoles were delicate. I'm glad to hear that this one is fairly tough. It will be covered when not in use. (Extra protection since the booth is ALWAYS locked if I'm not there.  )


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## renegadeblack (Aug 19, 2009)

You just got an Innovator last year?!?!? I thought that console was banned. If you haven't had problems yet, just wait, you will soon enough.

As for the Allen & Heath, I know a few guys who swear by their Allen & Heaths. They all love them.


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## Shillyer (Aug 19, 2009)

I used a A&H GL-2800 (Very similar just more buses and things of that nature) during my time in high school, I found it was a very reliable board and also that it was fairly easy to teach. Most students picked up the basics very quickly. Without knowing more info it sounds like the board will probably work out well for you guys.


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## Anonymous067 (Aug 19, 2009)

I have worked with a few A&H boards and had such bad experiences with them I just gave up on them... I guess I kinda got scared away from them...


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## Tex (Aug 19, 2009)

renegadeblack said:


> You just got an Innovator last year?!?!? I thought that console was banned. If you haven't had problems yet, just wait, you will soon enough.


Yeah, I know... My district probably cleared the vendor's old inventory. I don't mind the interface so much. It's pretty standard. Funny you should mention the problems, though. I just started getting low battery warnings. Fortunately, they're cheap and easy to change.

Thanks to all who have offered opinions.


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## TimmyP1955 (Aug 20, 2009)

Allen & Heath - great choice.

OAP - given the many poor comments I've seen about their snakes, I'd steer completely clear.

If you want powered speakers, look at Yorkville and (whatever it is that's always missing from my favorites when I go looking for it).


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## avkid (Aug 20, 2009)

TimmyP1955 said:


> Allen & Heath - great choice.
> 
> OAP - given the many poor comments I've seen about their snakes, I'd steer completely clear.


OAP does not make snakes.
Product Families

However OSP does make snakes and road cases.
OSP Audio - Commercial Division - Independent Contractors and Production Companies


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## FMEng (Aug 21, 2009)

Allen and Heath make fine consoles. The OAP speakers are obscure enough that we can rule out some school district person choosing them at the local music store. Chances are someone has done some engineering and selected them for the space. It'll probably turn out great.


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## TimmyP1955 (Aug 22, 2009)

avkid said:


> OAP does not make snakes.
> Product Families
> 
> However OSP does make snakes and road cases.
> OSP Audio - Commercial Division - Independent Contractors and Production Companies



You are right. My bad! Apologies to OAP.


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## Tex (Aug 22, 2009)

FMEng said:


> The OAP speakers are obscure enough that we can rule out some school district person choosing them at the local music store. Chances are someone has done some engineering and selected them for the space. It'll probably turn out great.


Someone has done some engineering, I'm certain of that. I just hope they were good with math!
The money was part of a bond package and somehow it became my responsibility to find a vendor. Not to take this off topic, but has anyone else had problems getting vendors out to their site to create a quote? Out of about 10 that I called, 3 actually came out and 2 actually submitted a quote. It's like pulling teeth. I was just glad to get a quote that's within our budget. It sounds like I'm getting some decent equipment as a bonus! Whatever it is, it couldn't sound worse than what I have currently. Now I just need to get it installed before the musical...


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## museav (Aug 22, 2009)

Tex said:


> Not to take this off topic, but has anyone else had problems getting vendors out to their site to create a quote? Out of about 10 that I called, 3 actually came out and 2 actually submitted a quote. It's like pulling teeth.


It probably depends on the situation, especially for public schools. If there are no formal Bid Documents bidders may assume that the bids will be all over the place with some wild card getting the project or that one firm already has an "in" and the rest of the bids are just getting numbers so it can be claimed to be a "competitive" bid. And with public or state schools they may assume that the bid will be awarded to the bidder with the lowest price, which with no formal Bid Documents could mean the bidder willing to make the most compromises and cut the most corners. It often comes down to how much effort can they justify investing in a bid that may be a) loosely or poorly defined, b) open to many bidders and c) awarded based on cost.

The flip side is that a very tightly defined bid package with numerous qualifiers may provide more basis for technically competitive bids and a value based decision but will likely also eliminate or discourage many potential bidders.

A good example, I have a project currently out to bid for a State University and the University came up with a list of "approved" Vendors to whom a notification of the bid would be delivered that included 139 firms, basically anyone the State has listed as a registered Vendor for audio or production communications equipment. Probably less than 10% of those could properly handle the project but nothing stops any of them from bidding. Without the Drawings and Specifications to define numerous project requirements, the Bidders who are best qualified might have difficulty justifying investing the time and effort required to submit a bid. Better to spend that on projects they have a better chance of getting in the first place, a better chance of having a result they are proud of and a better chance of being more profitable.


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## jonnyfive1985 (Aug 28, 2009)

I have used several of the Allen & Heath Consoles and love them. Great product from the UK. Bad part was one time i had to send one of the boards back to the UK for Warranty Repairs(not so fun). But other than that one fluke i have had no problems and love the board actually almost bought one last year for our FOH at work but decided to go with the Mackie Onyx 4880 instead. I have the board you are getting though in a theatre that i do consulting work/volunteer at its wonderful used it for several big shows and did the job great. Only thing i wish was different on the console was the headphone jack placement.


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## IA183 (Aug 28, 2009)

I have used A @ H boards on a few smaller gigs clubs @ small theaters and had no problums not sure I would choose one for a install


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## museav (Aug 28, 2009)

IA183 said:


> I have used A @ H boards on a few smaller gigs clubs @ small theaters and had no problums not sure I would choose one for a install


Just curious but why the hesitancy for an install?


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## mstaylor (Aug 31, 2009)

I would be interested in the answer too, I'm getting the same board for an install to replace a Mackie.


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## Les (Aug 31, 2009)

Curious here, too! My high school (how many years ago was that???) had an Allen & Heath and it was (still is, probably) an excellent console. Someone a few posts back said they are fragile... Aren't all sound consoles fragile? Anyway I didn't see anything lacking in the build quality at all. In fact it was built like a tank. Maybe they were referring to the faders - they have a very light touch, but not hard to get used to.


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## rwhealey (Aug 31, 2009)

I've used a GL2200 and that thing is a tough board.

I don't know when it was installed, but it had been in an unsupervised community theater for a long, long time and everything still worked.


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## Tex (Oct 31, 2009)

I know this is an old post, but I hate it when people say they're getting new toys and we never find out what they finally got.
It turns out that the main speakers are OK for a few more years. They're not great, but they'll do. The real problem was the console and the DSP. So we're getting a new console, a new DSP, an amp and some subs (along with some other misc. equipment; don't want to leave money on the table!) Here's the list:
1 GL2400-32 Allen & Heath GL2400 mixing console, 32 channel, 4 buss
1 AudiaSOLO8x88x8 Mic/Line Inputs & 8 Line Outputs 
1 RMX4050HD QSC RMX 4050HD Power Amplifier
2 EL36 Cerwin-Vega EL-36 18" folded horn subwoofer, 1000 watts, 30 Hz-300 Hz
1 Super-X Pro High-Precision Stereo 2-Way/Mono 3-Way Crossover W/Sub Out (so I can use one of the subs with my portable system)
Plus installation, cables, connectors, programming the DSP and some PI headsets and beltpacks.
I have an install scheduled next week. I think I'm going to be pleased...


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## museav (Oct 31, 2009)

Thanks for the update! The Cerwin-Vega subs are a rather unusual choice for an installed theater system, just look at the manuals and data available for the other products and compare it to that available for the subs and you'll see why it is sort of "one of these things is not like the others". They may work fine, it just seemed an unusual selection compared to the other items. How and where do they plan on mounting the subs?

The Biamp AudiaSOLO is a nice piece but I'm a little surprised at their using it rather than one of the Nexia models, they must have specifically needed the 8x8 configuration of the AudiaSOLO (which also comes as 12x4 and 4x12) or some other specific functionality as the 10x6 or 4x8 configurations of the Nexia models are one half to two thirds the cost of the AudiaSOLO. The 8x8 configuration also reminded me to ask whether you had an assistive listening system, it is an ADA requirement for most theatre facilities and is usually something to consider if you don't have an existing system and are doing a scope of work such as this with a new console and new processor.

And just in case it was not specifically identified, make sure you are getting all the manuals and drawings for the work, including line drawings showing the interconnections with wire numbers, etc.


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## Tex (Oct 31, 2009)

The Cerwin Vegas are, I believe a good solution to a specific request that I had. (WARNING: Long explanation ahead.)
We traditionally use no scenery in our one-act contest play. A grey unit set is available, but we choose to create an environment with actor's bodies, sparse set pieces, light and especially sound. We have been very successful. We did Sarah Ruhle's Eurydice two years ago and I would never have been able to create those unique places and textures without a sub. I've been borrowing a portable sub from the band to use. It's a huge box on wheels with 2 18" speakers and a cheapo crossover that I would mount in my portable rack. I wanted to add subs to the current theatre configuration, but I wanted to be able to continue to take a sub with me to contest so to solve this problem, my sound guy came up with these. I'm not sure where they will live in the theatre. Since they weigh about 170 lbs. each, I'll definately be building a road box for one.
I'm not sure why he chose the DSP that he did. He may have an expansion plan in mind. The job he originally bid was a total system replacement and was scaled back from there. We don't have an assisted listening system. Not sure why we don't, but the district has plenty of lawyers so I'll let them worry about ADA compliance. Not that they would listen to me anyway! 
I'll get all the manuals and drawings. After the recent thread here, I'm interested to see what he says about passwords.
I'm very excited. Thanks for being interested!


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## DuckJordan (Nov 1, 2009)

I like your sound guys idea, instead of working for what you need also consider future things... as far as the assisted hearing system, our Public school district just hires out a sign language person. ends up being cheaper and is more district friendly as far as usability in all 3 of the high schools.


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## museav (Nov 2, 2009)

DuckJordan said:


> I like your sound guys idea, instead of working for what you need also consider future things... as far as the assisted hearing system, our Public school district just hires out a sign language person. ends up being cheaper and is more district friendly as far as usability in all 3 of the high schools.


Signed interpretation deals more with individuals whose hearing loss is too severe for ALS and who use sign language to communicate. ALS deals with hearing impaired individuals many of whom do not use sign language at all. I am pretty sure that providing only signing is not meeting ADA compliance.

> _*Assembly areas*_
> _(b) This paragraph applies to assembly areas where audible communications are integral to the use of the space (e.g., concert and lecture halls, playhouses and movie theaters, meetings rooms, etc.). Such assembly areas, if (1) they accommodate at least 50 persons, or if they have audio-amplification systems, and (2) they have fixed seating, shall have a permanently installed assistive listening system complying with 4.33._
> 
> _For other assembly areas, a permanently installed assistive listening system, or an adequate number of electrical outlets or other supplementary wiring necessary to support a portable assistive listening system shall be provided. The minimum number of receivers to be provided shall be equal to 4 percent of the total number of seats, but in no case less than two. Signage complying with applicable provisions of 4.30 shall be installed to notify patrons of the availability of a listening system._


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## DuckJordan (Nov 2, 2009)

well as with most high school setups only about 1/2 the building meets code, since its a lowest bid wins situation. we have no assisted listening system as far as what that article says and we don't have anywhere near the outlet sources required... but this is not the time nor thread to argue building and running codes about my schools theater.


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## museav (Nov 2, 2009)

DuckJordan said:


> well as with most high school setups only about 1/2 the building meets code, since its a lowest bid wins situation.


Two totally separate issues, meeting code is a requirement regardless of budget, in theory if you can't build to code you can't build period. Code compliance during both the design and construction phases of a project must be verified and approved by the Authorities Having Jurisdiction for the building to be permitted and to later receive a Certificate of Occupancy. Discrepancies found and not corrected will result in not obtaining one or the other of these approvals required before a building can be built and occupied.


DuckJordan said:


> we have no assisted listening system as far as what that article says and we don't have anywhere near the outlet sources required... but this is not the time nor thread to argue building and running codes about my schools theater.


There may be an important distinction here that should be clarified. "Code" typically applies to issues that could affect the health, welfare and safety of the public. However, here are many other issues that relate to good design that are not "code" related. ADA is actually one of these, unless it is referenced in the local building codes it is not necessarily a "code" issue. ADA also works on non-compliance rather than compliance, a building typically does not have to be 'approved' as ADA compliant but instead must address any allegations of non-compliance, sort of innocent until proven guilty. But should someone file a formal complaint with the Department of Justice, then you may have to prove compliance, 'reasonable accommodation' or hardship or be subject to up to a $55,000 civil penalty ($110,000 for additional violations). The DoJ is usually quite fair, their goal is to get accommodations for the disabled rather than to issue penalties so they are more interested in getting compliance than in penalizing reasonable situations. The problem comes in that spending money on updating other aspects of a facility or system and not addressing ADA makes it potentially more difficult in the event of a complaint to argue that reasonable effort or accommodation was made in the past. Just thought it was worth a litte more complete discussion since it is easily misunderstood.


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## DuckJordan (Nov 3, 2009)

thank you for verifying it i was about to bring it up with the department head, i still will but it will be more of a suggestion rather than a need...


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## gizm770o (Nov 3, 2009)

Blah067 said:


> I have worked with a few A&H boards and had such bad experiences with them I just gave up on them... I guess I kinda got scared away from them...



Just out of curiosity what kind of bad experiences have you had. I've loved all the ones I've used. (GL2800-40, GL2400-32, GL2200-32) But there are always the few bad ones from a production run.


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## Tex (Dec 2, 2009)

My install is today! The DSP was on back order...
I'll post pics soon.


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## Tex (Dec 23, 2009)

Here are some photos. Not very exciting to look at, but it sounds SO much better. These subs rock. You want thunder? I'll give you thunder... 


The board. Very smooth action. Very clean sound.

The DSP. I was given the software and about an hour of instruction. It's all been backed up so I'm free to play. I wont. Only four of the inputs and outputs are being used so there's room for expansion. 

The thunder. Its twin lives stage left. Probably overkill, but certainly fun. I can take one with me on the road and leave one onstage and everybody's happy. Every conduit from the stage to the booth was crammed full. It would have been hell to run cable so we settled on making the amp portable and running a TRS terminated cable from the DSP to the patch panel. I can put the amp at any mic input so the subs can go anywhere on stage. The money saved on wiring will go for a road case for the amp and lots of lighting twofers and extension cables.
I know there's some overkill here but I'm happy with the sound and very happy with the company that installed. Thanks to all who talked me through the process.


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