# Firecode



## midgetgreen11 (Jul 7, 2008)

Does anybody know what general firecode is towards the length of time in between "Fireproofing" Stage curtains. Our school has been open 8 years and the curtains have not been proofed. I feel like I heard someone say it's 5years but I'm not entirely sure.

We also don't fireproof our sets because we don't have the money, and I'm basically our Drama Club's Tech Director. Should I be on my Director's tail about these things?


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## lieperjp (Jul 7, 2008)

midgetgreen11 said:


> Does anybody know what general firecode is towards the length of time in between "Fireproofing" Stage curtains. Our school has been open 8 years and the curtains have not been proofed. I feel like I heard someone say it's 5years but I'm not entirely sure.
> 
> We also don't fireproof our sets because we don't have the money, and I'm basically our Drama Club's Tech Director. Should I be on my Director's tail about these things?



My church just recently purchased stage curtains, and the fire proofing is rated for 5 years. I don't know if it varies at all, though.

This is just an example. It may be different on your curtains.


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## Footer (Jul 7, 2008)

Look on the tag on the soft good, call that company and ask them. As far as what you need to "fireproof", most places just require backpainting everything, and in some instances require actual fireproof solution to be applied to all surfaces, usually though you have to be using pyro to get to that level. 

BUT. YOU MUST CONTACT YOUR LOCAL FIREMARSHAL, RULES ARE DIFFERENT ACCROSS THE ENTIRE COUNTRY, DO NOT TAKE ANY ADVICE HERE FOR LAW, YOU MUST CONTACT YOUR LOCAL FIREMARSHAL. 

Some places require a fire marshal inspection before every show opens, some don't. Just depends on the area and what type of suppression is available at the theatre.


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## ReiRei (Jul 8, 2008)

Be careful when fireproofing a set, especially if you paint your stage. During my school's remount of Little Shop of Horrors we fireproofed the set because we had to move it, just in case, y'know. Anyways, now there are certain parts of the stage we can't paint over because of the substance we used on the set.


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## sobenson (Jul 8, 2008)

NFPA 701: Standard Methods of Fire Tests for Flame Propagation of Textiles and Films, is the federal standard, however your local Fire Department may have more strict rules, so definitely check with them. As for the length of the flame proofing, check with the original goods manufacturer. The goods may be inherently flame resistant so they may bee good for the life of the goods. If they are treated, such as some of mine, the substance that treated the goods would be what you need to check on. For example the stuff we used, Fire Block, is good indefinitely or 3 washes, and as I don't own a washer that can fit 672 sq.ft. of material I should never have to worry about re-treating them.


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## mixmaster (Jul 15, 2008)

I'm 90% sure national code says soft good should be fireproofed every 5 years. I'm not aware of a code that requires fireproofing for sets and painted surfaces. 
However, national code (NFPA 72) also gives local authority (your fire marshal or city inspector) the right to make any local rules he wants, so you MUST!!!! check with him/her. Beyond CODE concerns there is a manufacturer's tag that tells you how long the original fireproofing is good for, but that doesn't mean that subsequent fireproofing used the same materials or is good for as long. Records of each subsequent treatment should be maintained, including the life expectancy of the treatment.


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## museav (Jul 15, 2008)

Just to emphasize the checking with local officials, it is usually their interpretation of the code, not yours, that really matters, so best to get their interpretation.


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## derekleffew (Jul 15, 2008)

This document from RoseBrand may be helpful. 

I have seen a Fire Marshal conduct a "match test" as follows: Cut a one inch square swatch of material from a seam or other unnoticed location. Hold a lit paper match to it for ten seconds. Once the flame is removed, the material must self-extinguish and not be able to sustain the flame on its own.


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## midgetgreen11 (Jul 16, 2008)

I figured it out by looking at the tag on our 4 travelers. They are inherently flame proof. The weird thing is that our main drape is a split-drape that opens sideways, and it has like this plastic material on the back of it.

Would this be our fire curtain, because we do not have one that drops? Shouldn't a fire curtain be something that drops automatically?


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## Spikesgirl (Jul 16, 2008)

Ben - no, that wouldn't be a fire curtain. I think you need to have a talk with your TD or the head of your department as you should have one (a real one) in place legally. We had to have ours tested twice a year by the FM when I was back at the college. At the theater where I work now, it's pretty much up to us when we want to have it tested.


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## Van (Jul 16, 2008)

midgetgreen11 said:


> I figured it out by looking at the tag on our 4 travelers. They are inherently flame proof. The weird thing is that our main drape is a split-drape that opens sideways, and it has like this plastic material on the back of it.
> 
> Would this be our fire curtain, because we do not have one that drops? Shouldn't a fire curtain be something that drops automatically?


 

Again it is always best to contact your local Fire Marshal. The only times I MUST fire proof sets is when there is extensive use of open flame on stage and in most of those cases it is only in the areas directly around which the flame is used, but this varies widely from town to town, and state to state. Reading and referencing fire codes is good but as museav said "...it is usually their interpretation of the code, not yours, that really matters..." 
This even applies to the use / style of "fire curtains" in your theatre.


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## lieperjp (Jul 16, 2008)

Are dropping fire curtains required by law??? Or is is that one of those "it depends on your locality" things?


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## Van (Jul 16, 2008)

lieperjp said:


> Are dropping fire curtains required by law??? Or is is that one of those "it depends on your locality" things?


 The style and requirement of a fire curtain are dictated by your local codes, and by the buildings original design. A "dropping" fire curtain is only one of many different options availible to an Architect.


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## midgetgreen11 (Jul 16, 2008)

It does seem like something that should be automatic, because I can tell you that if there's a fire, I'll help people get out, but there's no way i'm hanging around to try closing a nearly-impossible 100lb curtain to keep smoke from leaving the stage into the house; and there is a 2 foot gap between the plaster wall and the main drape anyway; it would not hold much back. the stage. You already know where the exits are from our pre-show briefing; get the heck out.


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## soundlight (Jul 16, 2008)

Some spaces have a high-volume sprinkler or deluge system rather than a fire curtain.


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## midgetgreen11 (Jul 17, 2008)

Now that I think about it, we've got sprinklers up the wazoo, so that's certainly a possibility too.

On that note, I think our biggest fire issue is the woodloft that we have, and then the dimmer. If a spark went off in there, the auditorium would be gone in five minutes


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## FIREPROOFING (Jul 22, 2008)

The Fire Department of New York (FDNY) maintains that a Flameproofing Affidavit is good for one year from the date of application. However, it is important to note that if any of the treated materials are washed or dry-cleaned, the affidavit will be voided.


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## Van (Jul 22, 2008)

FIREPROOFING said:


> The Fire Department of New York (FDNY) maintains that a Flameproofing Affidavit is good for one year from the date of application. However, it is important to note that if any of the treated materials are washed or dry-cleaned, the affidavit will be voided.


 Now if that isn't service I don't know what is! Now we have a real live fireproofing expert! This place is growing everyday. 

Drop us a line in the new memebers forum Fireproofing.


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## gafftaper (Jul 28, 2008)

First off. There is *no such thing* as "Fire Proof". It's fire *retardant*. While it may seem like I'm being picky, it's a VERY important part of theater safety to keep in mind the difference. EVERYTHING in theater will burn EVENTUALLY if you put enough heat to it long enough. In the case of a fire retardant treated curtain or set, the standards say that to be classified as retardant it has to put itself out after the source of flame is removed. Got that subtle difference? The code DOESN'T say that it will not catch fire in the first place, it doesn't say it is an impenetrable barrier to fire... it just has to put it self out AFTER the source of flame is removed. That is NOT the same thing as "Fire Proof". 

From the Don't try this at home kids file...
I took a theater safety class last year and we had fun with fire afternoon. We took old and new pieces of curtains, we got them wet with plain water, washed them in soap, washed with dry cleaning fluid, we took an old theater seat... and we burned them all with both a lighter and blow torch. It was fascinating to see results. 

Theater seats are treated to prevent them from catching fire. However when you put a flame to them for a long enough period of time eventually the treated exterior disintegrates exposing the foam interior. Once that happen, that baby's going up fast and putting out nasty toxic fumes too! As for the curtain samples we found that just getting a curtain wet with clear water can have a devastating effect on the retardancy. You could actually see white "stains" in the fabric... that's the retardant material that has been leached out of the fibers and is no longer useless. Those of you with old theaters that you have no idea the history of, take a close look at your curtains for white powdery looking water marks... if you see them you have a big problem. A curtain washed in drycleaning fluid held up nearly as long as the control. The most interesting thing was what happens if you take a brand new treated curtain and put a blow torch to it. It doesn't "burn" but it slowly turns to charred ash and disintegrates... it's like the retardant is preventing the flame but the thing is still smoldering to oblivion. 


mixmaster said:


> I'm 90% sure national code says soft good should be fireproofed every 5 years. I'm not aware of a code that requires fireproofing for sets and painted surfaces.
> However, national code (NFPA 72) also gives local authority (your fire marshal or city inspector) the right to make any local rules he wants, so you MUST!!!! check with him/her.


Not true... and you answered your own question why. It's totally up to the local authority. You should definitely have them tested every 5 years but there are plenty of 20 year old curtains out there that are still fully retardant. We tested an old curtain that was at least 30 years old and it still passed the local standards. As has been said over and over it's all about local standards. 


lieperjp said:


> Are dropping fire curtains required by law??? Or is is that one of those "it depends on your locality" things?


The need for a fire curtain (or deluge/water system) is determined based on how high your fly space is in relation to the height of your auditorium. If the fly space is very tall it requires a fire curtain (or other system). If you have a lower fly space then the code defines the entire auditorium as one room and you don't need a fire curtain. I'm sure some areas require one no matter what. I know a local theater with a grid that is about 45' off the deck that isn't required to have a fire curtain... craziest think I've ever seen... but that's what the formula for the local fire code determined. 


derekleffew said:


> I have seen a Fire Marshal conduct a "match test" as follows: Cut a one inch square swatch of material from a seam or other unnoticed location. Hold a lit paper match to it for ten seconds. Once the flame is removed, the material must self-extinguish and not be able to sustain the flame on its own.


The fireproof test has a time element as well. It's something like flame is applied for 15 seconds and it must self extinguish in 5 seconds. I don't remember the exact numbers and they probably vary according to local fire marshal anyway.

One last thing, don't just go cut off a corner of your curtain and test it yourself. You need to have it done in cooperation with the local fire marshal or the test is not valid. Call them and say... "Hey we haven't had our curtains fire retardancy tested in 8 years and we want to have it done what is the process you would like us to follow?"


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## Sayen (Jul 28, 2008)

Where did you take that theater safety class? Sounds like something I'd be interested in.

Our theater was just rebuilt, and as they were demolishing the old building I snuck in and saved the curtains, boxed them up, and just got them out of storage. I was told to throw them away since we received new ones, because after sitting in hot storage (Phoenix, AZ with no AC) they're no longer fire treated. While that sounds crazy to me, what's the best way to go about retreating them? These are nice curtains, too nice to just toss out.

Does the treatment rule apply to theater seats as well then? Our seats went through the same process as the curtains, except the powers that be chose to reuse the seats.


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## derekleffew (Jul 28, 2008)

Sayen said:


> Where did you take that theater safety class?...


 I believe [user]gafftaper[/user] has stated previously he attended a "Dr. Doom" seminar. If you ever have a chance, I highly recommend it. (Although I think I heard recently he was in ill health.)


Sayen said:


> ...While that sounds crazy to me, what's the best way to go about retreating them?...


I doubt "hot storage" would affect them that adversely. Perform the match test first by yourself, before calling your local AHJ. Do a local search for "drapery flameproofing".


Sayen said:


> Does the treatment rule apply to theater seats as well then? ...


 You haven't been paying attention. There is no "treatment rule"--it's up to each individual fire marshal. If the seats were reused in a new building, I'm sure your building dept./fire marshal approved it, provided the construction was properly permitted.


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## Sayen (Jul 28, 2008)

I should have said treatment rule of thumb or common wisdom.  I would assume that like all materials chairs would lose their resistance to flame over time? I took a ton of grief over keeping the old curtains, along with salvaging lights and other equipment from the demo'd building, I would love to throw something tangible back in the face of the district officials making my life rough. I couldn't find anything on hot storage affecting the curtains, but we had a lengthy email battle about just throwing them away. You'd never guess that we're in a budget crisis the way schools throw away materials.

Through the construction process I'm learning that many code issues are formalities. The fire inspector cleared our building, but never went up to the ceiling level. A recent inspection from a rigging company found things like sprinkler heads that were still taped over for painting, or dangerously suspended materials over the audience. I gather that the inspectors enter at ground level, eyeball the room along with architectural plans, and make decisions based on only what they see - at least out where I live.

Thanks for the link!


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## lieperjp (Jul 29, 2008)

gafftaper said:


> From the Don't try this at home kids file...
> I took a theater safety class last year and we had fun with fire afternoon. We took old and new pieces of curtains, we got them wet with plain water, washed them in soap, washed with dry cleaning fluid, we took an old theater seat... and we burned them all with both a lighter and blow torch. It was fascinating to see results.
> 
> Theater seats are treated to prevent them from catching fire. However when you put a flame to them for a long enough period of time eventually the treated exterior disintegrates exposing the foam interior. Once that happen, that baby's going up fast and putting out nasty toxic fumes too! As for the curtain samples we found that just getting a curtain wet with clear water can have a devastating effect on the retardancy. You could actually see white "stains" in the fabric... that's the retardant material that has been leached out of the fibers and is no longer useless. Those of you with old theaters that you have no idea the history of, take a close look at your curtains for white powdery looking water marks... if you see them you have a big problem. A curtain washed in drycleaning fluid held up nearly as long as the control. The most interesting thing was what happens if you take a brand new treated curtain and put a blow torch to it. It doesn't "burn" but it slowly turns to charred ash and disintegrates... it's like the retardant is preventing the flame but the thing is still smoldering to oblivion.



I want to know where he got dry cleaning fluid!!! If he was using standard Dry Cleaning Perchloroethylene, that can be very dangerous. After working in a (now defunct) Dry Cleaners for years, I hope everyone involved was wearing proper safety equipment!!!

Anyway, back to my point. Don't Dry Clean your curtains!!! (May be redundant/unnecessary to say.) Hire a professional to clean and re-apply flame retardant. Not only is it unlikely that a dry cleaner will even accept your extremely heavy curtains, but the methods used to clean them do vary from cleaner to cleaner. (I believe California is aiming to ban Perchloroethylene use, and "Perc" is pretty much a standard in the dry cleaning world.) Not only that, but once your curtains would be cleaned, they also would be pressed using steam. The presses designed to press and crease pleated curtains often do leave condensed water (though you would never know it, usually, after they have dried.) This will hurt your curtains, as stated before.


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## mixmaster (Aug 2, 2008)

gafftaper said:


> Not true... and you answered your own question why. It's totally up to the local authority. You should definitely have them tested every 5 years but there are plenty of 20 year old curtains out there that are still fully retardant. We tested an old curtain that was at least 30 years old and it still passed the local standards. As has been said over and over it's all about local standards.
> 
> Gafftaper,
> My information came from my local fire chief. It concured with information from the last 3 cities that I worked regularly in. However, my own reaserch seems to agree with you NFPA doesn't seem to specify a time. Somewhere there must be a document that says five years though, I've heard it so often it must be coming from somewhere. I found the following websites that provided information
> ...


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## museav (Aug 7, 2008)

Perhaps it is important to understand that national 'codes' such as IBC, NEC and NFPA are not the law except as adopted into law. Codes and ordinances are set locally (city, county or state) and while these codes and ordinances typically reference or adopt national codes, they may also modify them. In fact a city code may reference a county code that references a state code that references a national code with each along the way adding their own specific provisions. This is why it is so important to check the local codes and ordinances.

In reference to some of the other comments, changes to a facility may also require updating to meet current codes. I have been involved in renovation projects that started out as being something very simple but turned much more comprehensive when the changes planned in turn required addressing newer building and life safety codes, ADA compliance, asbestos abatement and so forth.


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## gafftaper (Aug 7, 2008)

Sayen said:


> Where did you take that theater safety class? Sounds like something I'd be interested in.


Central Washington University has a summer masters degree program for teachers. It takes about three years attending 5 weeks a year to get your masters... theres a lot of extra work at home during the year as well. Our own "Thorin81" just started the program this summer and is probably still writing papers. Anyway you don't have to be in the program to take the classes. You can sign up for personal enrichment as well. They offer week long classes and short intense workshops. These workshops are 3 days, 10 hrs a day, 3 credits... BAM! It's intense. I've taken three of these 3 day classes: Theater Management, Theater Safety and Maintenance, and Rigging. They only offer a few per summer. It's a good program more info here. DR. Doom's book was part of the Safety and Maintenance class. 


museav said:


> Perhaps it is important to understand that national 'codes' such as IBC, NEC and NFPA are not the law except as adopted into law. Codes and ordinances are set locally (city, county or state) and while these codes and ordinances typically reference or adopt national codes, they may also modify them. In fact a city code may reference a county code that references a state code that references a national code with each along the way adding their own specific provisions. This is why it is so important to check the local codes and ordinances.



Yeah the key in all this safety stuff is what your local fire marshal wants. Everything else is pretty much irrelevant since very few codes are adopted locally. You need to know the codes so that you can be proactive... but don't count on anyone to come down on you because you haven't had your curtains tested for 10 years. On the flip side you may find a psycho fire marshal who wants your curtains tested every other year... it sucks to be you. Local adoption and enforcement is very limited and random. Did you know that Idaho is the only state that has occupational safety laws specifiably written for theater? There aren't many... but they do have a small section specifically about theater. Everywhere else we rely on applying principles from a variety of other industries.


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## thenelsontwins (Sep 6, 2008)

Footer4321 said:


> Look on the tag on the soft good, call that company and ask them. As far as what you need to "fireproof", most places just require backpainting everything, and in some instances require actual fireproof solution to be applied to all surfaces, usually though you have to be using pyro to get to that level.
> 
> BUT. YOU MUST CONTACT YOUR LOCAL FIREMARSHAL, RULES ARE DIFFERENT ACCROSS THE ENTIRE COUNTRY, DO NOT TAKE ANY ADVICE HERE FOR LAW, YOU MUST CONTACT YOUR LOCAL FIREMARSHAL.
> 
> Some places require a fire marshal inspection before every show opens, some don't. Just depends on the area and what type of suppression is available at the theatre.



YEP. Exactly. Check the tag, if no tag, figure out what to do next. 8 years is a while. Typically it is 5 years, but there are differences from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. Some of the larger carpet cleaning companies deal in large drapery cleaning and flameproofing, but your options are limited and it is expensive. Sometimes flame retardant is your best friend but the soft goods then feel slimy and the crap gets everywhere when applying. 

If you have drapery from a larger manufacturer, there may be a test sample that is from the same drapery they made with the same treatment that will also be the the same age. Handy! But typically those are long since lost. 

The Fire Marshal coming over should be treated just like grandma coming over. Clean up! Theater's are weird places that are only loosely governed by the standard laws. What is the OSHA or NEC standard in construction, is not necessarily the same rule in the theater. Most inspectors don't remember this from their training, nor do they like being told the rules by someone without a license to tell them what the rules are. 

Clean up, make it pretty, don't give them a reason to suspect anything else, because what is commonplace in the theater world is NOT in the real world. 

The F.M. will do a controlled test burn on fabric that is cut from your soft goods. You can do this yourself if you really feel the need. But follow the rules which I will not post. But, keep in mind that the F.M. MUST(!) cut a piece of drape off of your drape!


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## midgetgreen11 (Sep 12, 2008)

The fire marshall came in our auditorium the other day and said that "taping cables down to carpet is illegal, and that you can't buy the plastic strips to put over them either"

What are we supposed to do? Our guru said we'll just tape it to the ceiling next time and see what they have to say about that. (Not Really, it was sarcasm)


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## sobenson (Sep 12, 2008)

midgetgreen11 said:


> The fire marshall came in our auditorium the other day and said that "taping cables down to carpet is illegal, and that you can't buy the plastic strips to put over them either"


I would find out exactly what is meant by that. OSHA guidelines on that is for permanent installation it is wrong to do, but for temporary installs it is fine.


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## museav (Sep 18, 2008)

> > Quote:
> > Originally Posted by *midgetgreen11*
> >
> > _The fire marshall came in our auditorium the other day and said that "taping cables down to carpet is illegal, and that you can't buy the plastic strips to put over them either"_
> ...


OSHA and fire codes don't really relate to one another. It may be a matter of where the cables are run, if the Fire Marshall considers it to be in an exit path then that path usually has to be kept clear of any potential interference with movement. I have had Fire Marshals make schools move portable equipment in order to keep exit paths clear. I have also had attorneys identify such cabling in some locations as a potential 'trip hazard' that could put the school or venue at risk should anyone in the general public be injured by tripping over the obstruction.


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## Pie4Weebl (Sep 19, 2008)

midgetgreen11 said:


> The fire marshall came in our auditorium the other day and said that "taping cables down to carpet is illegal, and that you can't buy the plastic strips to put over them either"
> 
> What are we supposed to do? Our guru said we'll just tape it to the ceiling next time and see what they have to say about that. (Not Really, it was sarcasm)



go get yourself some ADA approved cable ramps and run your cables through them.


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