# Emergency DMX takeover



## Jay Ashworth (Jan 28, 2017)

I found, as expected, a Doug Fleenor box that could be put between the control computer and the dimmers. I didn't expect it to be almost 800 bucks, though.

http://www.dfd.com/pricing.html#ALARMINTERFACE

Does anyone have a pointer to a Big Red Button for this sort of ALL-ON takeover that would meet code and perhaps not cost 1/4 of my per-room budget for this project?


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## JD (Jan 28, 2017)

You know the old story, it's a nitch-market need so you can't prorate design costs over thousands or millions of units, so it ends up being expensive. There are many ways I could think of doing it, but they probably wouldn't pass code or inspection! As is typical of Doug, you can be sure this one would, and would interface properly with alarm/emergency panels properly. 5 volts to the relay and everything happens as sure as the sun rises in the morning.


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## STEVETERRY (Jan 28, 2017)

ETC has just such a product:

http://www.etcconnect.com/Products/...DMX-Emergency-Bypass-Controller/Features.aspx

ST


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## BobHealey (Jan 29, 2017)

Jay Ashworth said:


> I found, as expected, a Doug Fleenor box that could be put between the control computer and the dimmers. I didn't expect it to be almost 800 bucks, though.
> 
> http://www.dfd.com/pricing.html#ALARMINTERFACE
> 
> Does anyone have a pointer to a Big Red Button for this sort of ALL-ON takeover that would meet code and perhaps not cost 1/4 of my per-room budget for this project?



Depending on the dimmers, they may already have this feature built in. Many of ETC's systems have that as a built in option. There was a thread here the other day about a false activation even on the Smartpack dimmers.


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## MikeJ (Jan 29, 2017)

I guess it's a matter of perspective, but $800 seems reasonable to me. I'm sure people have rolled their own, using arduino, or other hardware, but the work hardly seems worth the effort for a one-off.
There may be some architectural preset panels that also offer a contact closure, so depending on your needs, you could maybe get something more useful overall for the money.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Jan 29, 2017)

The title is emergency DMX takeover. It's easy to jump to the conclusion that this is for code required emergency lighting. For code compliance the appropriate listing is required, and best I can tell the Fleenor device does not comply. ETC has one as noted; Strand has a listed DMX bypass; and I believe Pathway Connectivity has a device - SNAP Lighting Control Panel - that will comply but it does a lot, which leads me to believe it's more expensive than ETC's or Strand's if you don't need the other features.

If this is not code required, others offer lots of options.


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## Jay Ashworth (Jan 29, 2017)

It's not actually clear whether it's code-required, but it's a non-theatrical public occupancy, so I'm assuming it. That said, the mains-dimmers are new, so we'll make sure to look at whether what we spec comes equipped.

And yes, I expected it to be priced as a low volume item. That said, I have at least a bit of an idea what components cost, and this is stuff Doug's equipment all does -- which is why I looked at him first. Not to diss the man, but it *still* seems at least a factor of 2 more expensive than I would expect.

Maybe the coffee pot is cheaper...


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## SteveB (Jan 29, 2017)

Jay Ashworth said:


> It's not actually clear whether it's code-required, but it's a non-theatrical public occupancy, so I'm assuming it. That said, the mains-dimmers are new, so we'll make sure to look at whether what we spec comes equipped.
> 
> And yes, I expected it to be priced as a low volume item. That said, I have at least a bit of an idea what components cost, and this is stuff Doug's equipment all does -- which is why I looked at him first. Not to diss the man, but it *still* seems at least a factor of 2 more expensive than I would expect.
> 
> Maybe the coffee pot is cheaper...



Curious as to when you would need a code compliant automatic control transfer on an otherwise "performance" controller. Seems to me there should be a separate lighting system served by battery/generated power with either stand-alone fixtures, or an ALTS 3 phase or branch circuit system, why the need to guarantee that DMX from the control console to dimmers is provided for ?. Can't say I've ever heard of this requirement. 

Attending the DMX transfer is the need to provide UPS or generated power to the backup device providing DMX.


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## SteveB (Jan 29, 2017)

BobHealey said:


> Depending on the dimmers, they may already have this feature built in. Many of ETC's systems have that as a built in option. There was a thread here the other day about a false activation even on the Smartpack dimmers.



We have Sensor racks as well as a separate Unison dimmer rack for house lighting that has a "loss of power" sensor. When building power gets lost, the Unison gets powered off an automatic transfer switch with a feed from a generator. The Unison CEM can sense loss of building power and will drive all dimmers to full.


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## Chris15 (Jan 29, 2017)

SteveB said:


> Curious as to when you would need a code compliant automatic control transfer on an otherwise "performance" controller. Seems to me there should be a separate lighting system served by battery/generated power with either stand-alone fixtures, or an ALTS 3 phase or branch circuit system, why the need to guarantee that DMX from the control console to dimmers is provided for ?. Can't say I've ever heard of this requirement.
> 
> Attending the DMX transfer is the need to provide UPS or generated power to the backup device providing DMX.


For all those DMX controlled LED house lights that you put in your new install instead of incandescent fed from that Sensor rack


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## BillConnerFASTC (Jan 29, 2017)

Chris 15 has it. Still needs emergency power - generator or inverter are common but not only option - for both lights and the control - DMX bypass here. There are other options. I use the DMX bypass to drive relays on as well for emergency lighting on stage and backstage. 

ETC and I suspect others have some other options that meet code requirements.


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## VRommel (Jan 30, 2017)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> The title is emergency DMX takeover. It's easy to jump to the conclusion that this is for code required emergency lighting. For code compliance the appropriate listing is required, and best I can tell the Fleenor device does not comply. ETC has one as noted; Strand has a listed DMX bypass; and I believe Pathway Connectivity has a device - SNAP Lighting Control Panel - that will comply but it does a lot, which leads me to believe it's more expensive than ETC's or Strand's if you don't need the other features.
> 
> If this is not code required, others offer lots of options.



Hi Bill, et al:

Good Morning!

Pathway Connectivity does not manufacture an Emergency DMX512 Bypass Controller. The SNAP Lighting Control panel is a DMX512-controlled, UL924-listed relay panel (8 or 16 1-pole relays) with an integral 16-channel 0-10VDC controller. It is an RDM responder. It is designed to support installations of LED (mostly) and Fluorescent (sometimes) architectural lighting (typically recessed or pendant downlights) that are fitted with 0-10VDC controlled drivers/ballasts. Should power to the internal controller card fail, the relays will close and the analog channels will go to full-bright status. There are contact closure inputs for interface with alarm systems & Normal/Emergency power transfer systems and designated relays and analog control channels can be patched to these inputs.

With both ETC and Phillips Strand making fine Emgergency DMX512 Bypass Controller products, there did not seem to be a justifiable business reason for Pathway Connectivity to enter that particular market. The debate can rage ad infinitum as to whether each downlight in a place of public assembly should have a unique DMX512 address, but our solution is based on the use of 0-10VDC controlled downlights fitted with "dim to black" drivers (they do exist) and targets small to medium size venues where 16 zones of control is more than adequate. Currently, there is a premium in the commercial dowlight market for a driver to be DMX512-enabled and when a facility will have 50 to 60 controllable downlights (not unusual) the cost of the SNAP panel is typically more than offset and considerably so.

Perhaps a representative of AC Lighting would like to weigh in with respect to the features set of their Inspire External Control Box. I believe that this might be a UL924 listed device as there is mention of that on their web site, but I believe it best for AC Lighting to discuss the features set of their product and whether it only supports their fixture or if it is intended for use with other DMX512 end devices.

Thank you for your time and consideration.

Best Regards,
Pathway Connectivity



Van Rommel
Director Business development


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## BillConnerFASTC (Jan 30, 2017)

Thanks for the correction. I saw the UL 924 and thought it would drive DMX channels as well as 0-10, but not so.


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## teqniqal (Feb 12, 2017)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> Chris 15 has it. Still needs emergency power - generator or inverter are common but not only option - for both lights and the control - DMX bypass here. *There are other options.* I use the DMX bypass to drive relays on as well for emergency lighting on stage and backstage.
> 
> ETC and I suspect others have some other options that meet code requirements.



Some brands of LED House / Work lights have a UL924-listed programmable internal default setting they can go to should the DMX source be interrupted. So, if the DMX signal system from the House / Work Light Controller goes-down, and there isn't a UL924-listed DMX transfer device, then the lights don't wake-up stupid, they wake-up to a predetermined level.

This does the same thing as a separate UL924-listed DMX transfer device that controls many lights. However, I'd rather have 90% of the House / Work lights come-on correctly (10% failure), than have none of them come on if the single separate UL924-listed DMX transfer device fails. Of course, using the 'department of redundancy department' approach would have you use the separate UL924-listed DMX transfer device AND House / Work Lights that have integral UL924-listed DMX transfer devices.

Another consideration is that the ETC device only drives up to 31 light fixtures, then you have to buy another one for the next 31 fixtures, etc. For a typical auditorium with 100+ lights, this means at least 4 of the transfer devices may be required. The Strand device will drive four lines of up to 31 fixtures each.

The illumination level required by the Fire Code is generally much less than 'FULL ON', so you can set all the LED lights to maybe 10-15% (whatever it takes to meet the code) and the electrical load on the emergency power system (generator / inverter) is significantly reduced. Less load usually means it costs less money. Example: If you have 100 houselights that can normally provide about 50 fc at FULL-ON for 200 watts each, then 100 of them at 10% could provide about 5 fc in a nice even coverage at about 20 watts each. This reduces the emergency power load from 20,000 watts to 2,000 watts. A 2,000 watt UL Listed battery type inverter that is self-monitoring and automatically reports to the Maintenance Department via pre-programmed emails will cut the long-term maintenance labor costs way down from dealing with a plethora of 'frog-eye battery packs'. The initial cost and long-term maintenance cost / hassle of a diesel generator is sometimes prohibitive.

This _system design_ approach provides a whole-house emergency egress illumination rather than the spotty blinding effect of a bunch of 'frog-eyes'. We all know the batteries in the 'frog-eyes' don't get tested and replaced as frequently as they should, so by centralizing the load to a generator (or a single large inverter / battery) the over-all cost of the building is less. You don't need to pay for both LED houselights AND a separate 'frog-eye' system (and all the attendant labor and materials for wire and conduit). You also get the added aesthetic benefit of no 'frog-eyes'. Damn, those are soooo ugly in an auditorium . . .


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## BillConnerFASTC (Feb 12, 2017)

I usually designate only a third or fourth of the houselights as em, and drive to full, do one DMX segment is not a problem.

As far as relying on a fixture to come to a setting on loss of DMX, I have concern about being sure of the loss of DMX. I prefer the central DMX transfer on power loss - any one or all three phases - or fa signal. 

The nice thing about inverters is that they provide normal/emergency branch circuits, and can signal the DMX bypass to transfer, making it much simpler.


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## STEVETERRY (Feb 12, 2017)

teqniqal said:


> This does the same thing as a separate UL924-listed DMX transfer device that controls many lights. However, I'd rather have 90% of the House / Work lights come-on correctly (10% failure), than have none of them come on if the single separate UL924-listed DMX transfer device fails. Of course, using the 'department of redundancy department' approach would have you use the separate UL924-listed DMX transfer device AND House / Work Lights that have integral UL924-listed DMX transfer devices.
> 
> .



Actually, I read NEC 700.16 to _require _redundancy:

_*700.16 Emergency Illumination.* Emergency illumination
shall include means of egress lighting, illuminated exit signs,
and all other luminaires specified as necessary to provide
required illumination.

Emergency lighting systems shall be designed and installed
so that the failure of any individual lighting element, such as
the burning out of a lamp, cannot leave in total darkness any
space that requires emergency illumination.
_
I think this failure includes the opening of an OCPD, the failure of a single luminaire, or the failure of a single piece of control equipment. Therefore, it can be argued that for a given space, you need a minimum of _two_ of everything that is responsible for getting the emergency illumination on. I plan to make a proposal to the 2020 NEC to that effect. We'll see how that goes!

ST


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## BillConnerFASTC (Feb 12, 2017)

I haven't applied that yet to DMX bypass, but is normal lighting when all is working plus emergency by it self not redundant? Or redundancy in emergency mode - after loss of normal power? Aside from wire to a fixture, I'm not seeing the single point, unless it's the DMX bypass, in which case the fixtures that get there normal data not through the DMX bypass probably work fine.

I hope your change can account for all this, maybe include a lot of appendix/fpn that explain where redundancy begins.

I'm liking more and more half the lighting on an inverter and DMX bypass and half only normal.

BTW, is a divider in a panel - like between em and normal - something that requires redundancy?


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## Jay Ashworth (Feb 12, 2017)

Not that these replies aren't helpful -- well, more 'interesting' -- but remember, this is a *restaurant*, not a theatre. Different requirements, no?


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## BillConnerFASTC (Feb 12, 2017)

Jay Ashworth said:


> Not that these replies aren't helpful -- well, more 'interesting' -- but remember, this is a *restaurant*, not a theatre. Different requirements, no?


If over 50 occupants, it is assembly, same as an auditorium, by building and fire codes, which would require emergency lighting. If under 50, business occupancy, and I'm not sure what's required, but IIRC no emergency lighting.


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## Jay Ashworth (Feb 12, 2017)

Hmmm. Well, we'll make sure the issue is on the table, at least.

I don't actually think on reflection that DMX takeover will be necessary; the packs are right next to both the room and the entryway; contact closure takeover will probably be fine.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Feb 12, 2017)

It seems you are trying to provide code required emergency lighting using the houselights fixtures. This will require an emergency power supply and transfer or bypass after the dimmers, if any. If a fixture that requires power and data, many possibilities, but still requires emergency power and some method of driving data line that uses UL 924 devices. In this age of LED lighting, it is not simple, like it use to be.


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## tyler.martin (Feb 12, 2017)

teqniqal said:


> Some brands of LED House / Work lights have a UL924-listed programmable internal default setting they can go to should the DMX source be interrupted. So, if the DMX signal system from the House / Work Light Controller goes-down, and there isn't a UL924-listed DMX transfer device, then the lights don't wake-up stupid, they wake-up to a predetermined level.
> 
> This does the same thing as a separate UL924-listed DMX transfer device that controls many lights. However, I'd rather have 90% of the House / Work lights come-on correctly (10% failure), than have none of them come on if the single separate UL924-listed DMX transfer device fails. Of course, using the 'department of redundancy department' approach would have you use the separate UL924-listed DMX transfer device AND House / Work Lights that have integral UL924-listed DMX transfer devices.
> 
> ...




ETC now makes a version of the DEBC with 6 outputs. 

Unsurprisingly when looking at the cost of UL924 certified fixtures, the cost difference between having certified fixtures vs a UL924 front end control is quite high. The certified DMX fixtures having nearly a 20% premium over the standard fixtures. Now IMO, there is another downside of having the fixtures be the DMX transfer, what happens if you lose the DMX signal in a non emergency scenario... then you have your houselights/worklights forced to full because the signal is gone (intentionally or not) I've seen brands that expect a normal power sense and are fed via an emergency source, but the transfer function happens when the sense feed is lost. At that point, the cost of running two power feeds to fixtures is more than likely equal or greater than having the front end emergency control system.

I was also under the impression that a UL924 device had to have a readily accessible test switch for that function (a-la ETC DEBC)


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## BillConnerFASTC (Feb 12, 2017)

When you talk about an LED fixture that includes its own transfer, the ones I'm familiar with basically sense power loss, not loss of data, and come on powered by their own battery. And of course the ETC Arc series transfers to an emergency circuit upon loss of normal power. Any front end scheme relies on loss of power, not data.

Am I simply wrong or is there another group that detects loss of DMX? Seems pointless since it's really loss of power that's usually sensed and nothing assures loss of DMX in an emergency.

PS 0-10 control is I believe fail safe in that loss of low voltage sends fixture to full.


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## MikeJ (Feb 12, 2017)

Jay Ashworth said:


> Not that these replies aren't helpful -- well, more 'interesting' -- but remember, this is a *restaurant*, not a theatre. Different requirements, no?



I would be willing to put a small wager on the good old battery-backup-exit-sign-flood-light-combo being enough to satisfy the local codes for a restaurant.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Feb 12, 2017)

MikeJ said:


> I would be willing to put a small wager on the good old battery-backup-exit-sign-flood-light-combo being enough to satisfy the local codes for a restaurant.


Sure. Maybe a pair of bug eyes on a battery pack if the space is large. Have done that in very low cost theatres. Transferring houselights is a nice and good way to go but seldom, initial cost anyway, not more expensive than battery packs. A couple of troffers with the em option work well too - and with a switch are useful for clean up - or "the party is over" look.

PS I think good practice to power these off a constant circuit in house dimmer rack or off and panel house lights are fed from, same phase , so a one panel or one phase leg failure doesn't defeat the intent.


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## tyler.martin (Feb 12, 2017)

MikeJ said:


> I would be willing to put a small wager on the good old battery-backup-exit-sign-flood-light-combo being enough to satisfy the local codes for a restaurant.



Depends on the aesthetic intent of the restaurant... I've installed a few Unison systems in high end bars and restaurants that want that level of control, and the emergency lights usually end up falling under my control once I explain to the engineers we don't need to use the bug eye'd batteries with a simple transfer switch or DMX Bypass Controller.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Feb 12, 2017)

tyler.martin said:


> Depends on the aesthetic intent of the restaurant... I've installed a few Unison systems in high end bars and restaurants that want that level of control, and the emergency lights usually end up falling under my control once I explain to the engineers we don't need to use the bug eye'd batteries with a simple transfer switch or DMX Bypass Controller.


Except then you also need emergency power, generator, inverter, or other, which along with the transfer switch or DMX bypass, inevitably costs more to much more. Yes if you have a generator otherwise, it might be justified.


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## RickR (Feb 12, 2017)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> PS 0-10 control is I believe fail safe in that loss of low voltage sends fixture to full.



But when is UL924 required? I have had several manufacturers tell me they can program their fixtures to come to full on signal loss. So far we have wound up with other solutions, but I've been pondering the ramifications. To be clear this is not a battery backup/ transfer scenario, just trying to duplicate the 0-10V function that has long been accepted.


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## STEVETERRY (Feb 13, 2017)

RickR said:


> But when is UL924 required? I have had several manufacturers tell me they can program their fixtures to come to full on signal loss. So far we have wound up with other solutions, but I've been pondering the ramifications. To be clear this is not a battery backup/ transfer scenario, just trying to duplicate the 0-10V function that has long been accepted.



*From NEC 2017:

700.2 Definitions
Luminaire, Directly Controlled.* An emergency luminaire that
has a control input for an integral dimming or switching function
that drives the luminaire to full illumination upon loss of
normal power.

Informational Note: See ANSI/UL 924, _Emergency Lighting and
Power Equipment,_ for information covering directly controlled
luminaires.

*700.24 Directly Controlled Luminaires.* Where emergency
illumination is provided by one or more directly controlled
luminaires that respond to an external control input to bypass
normal control upon loss of normal power, such luminaires
and external bypass controls shall be individually listed for use
in emergency systems.

Therefore, if a luminaire has a control input, it must be UL924 listed in order to be used for Emergency.

There you have it.
ST


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## BillConnerFASTC (Feb 13, 2017)

Since I have not replied on this type of "directly controlled luminairs" for emergency lighting what do they do upon loss of control input?

Maybe more constructively, how do you turn them on if they have lost data but not normal power, since loss of normal power is not assured in an event requiring emergency lighting?

I believe in assembly occupancies that having trained and competent people in charge and in control in an emergency situation is always preferable to automatic and pre-programmed control, and that history proves this. Codes, especially as influenced by emergency responders, don't recognize the value of a person making real time choices in events with lots of people.


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## sk8rsdad (Feb 13, 2017)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> Codes, especially as influenced by emergency responders, don't recognize the value of a person making real time choices in events with lots of people.


True, but codes regarding equipment can't assume the competent person is always available.


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## FMEng (Feb 13, 2017)

The emergency lighting is designed to turn on during a power outage, by battery or generator power. When power is lost, the competent person probably lost any control over any lighting, because the lighting console, house light station, and dimmer rack have all lost power. While it would be possible to power those devices with emergency power, that is expensive and open to human error. It doesn't work if the lighting console gets plugged into the wrong receptacle.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Feb 13, 2017)

sk8rsdad said:


> True, but codes regarding equipment can't assume the competent person is always available.



Except the Life Safety Code and the IBC rely upon crowd management as a fundamental part of the plan top assure safety, and that includes live real time direction, seeing where there are too many people, etc. The codes not only assume but require a competent person be available on on duty in assembly occupancies. Long ago Mr. Foy did this at the Iroquois Theatre here in Chicago and probably saved quite a few souls. Other recorded instances are similar. And forget the hollywood images of wild anti-social behavior in these events. Talk to or read the accounts of survivors and read the reports of disasters and the conclusion is clear that people behave extremely well and altruistically in an emergency.


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## sk8rsdad (Feb 13, 2017)

How did we go from talking about equipment to talking about crowd management?


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## BillConnerFASTC (Feb 13, 2017)

FMEng said:


> The emergency lighting is designed to turn on during a power outage, by battery or generator power. When power is lost, the competent person probably lost any control over any lighting, because the lighting console, house light station, and dimmer rack have all lost power. While it would be possible to power those devices with emergency power, that is expensive and open to human error. It doesn't work if the lighting console gets plugged into the wrong receptacle.



What happens if power is not lost, and there is an an emergency? The systems I design do include powering lighting and driving it to code required levels of illumination in the event of a power failure, up to and including in any failure in the last load center, dimmer panel, or relay panel that normally serves this lighting. And all of these systems are subject to human error or negligence. Assembly occupancies still are allowed to rely on a the normal sound system on emergency power rather than alarms of pre-recorded messages on red tin speakers because experience has shown the house systems and live people are much better at managing crowds in an emergency than all the pre-planning and logic that any number of experts might try to set in advance. Simply sensing loss of power doesn't tell you much about the emergency, or even if there is an emergency.

I recall two events (may be more) where I was in attendance and had a certain role in the operation of the theatre where power failed and there was no emergency or immediate threat. Maybe a car took out a pole miles away or something, but no threat. Another more serious fire incident and the lighting remained until I asked the operator to turn on the house and work lights, and turn off the stage lighting (which predictably was the cause of the fire.) All of these events were handled with more safety because people were in charge and could control the situation.

BTW there are other options besides (local - emergency) generator power or battery. Just worth keeping in mind. A couple universities I've worked on have their own separate constant emergency electrical service. Probably rare and getting rarer, but does exist.


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## STEVETERRY (Feb 13, 2017)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> Since I have not replied on this type of "directly controlled luminairs" for emergency lighting what do they do upon loss of control input?
> 
> Maybe more constructively, how do you turn them on if they have lost data but not normal power, since loss of normal power is not assured in an event requiring emergency lighting?
> 
> I believe in assembly occupancies that having trained and competent people in charge and in control in an emergency situation is always preferable to automatic and pre-programmed control, and that history proves this. Codes, especially as influenced by emergency responders, don't recognize the value of a person making real time choices in events with lots of people.



1. Some types of directly controlled luminaires (0-10V is one example) go to full upon loss of control input. Others, like those that accept DMX512, typically do nothing on loss of control input, and the ON functionality comes from listed emergency control equipment.

2. A normal/emergency luminaire is not acting as an emergency luminaire (by Code defintion) if normal power is present. In such a case (for instance, a sick audience member, or a terrorist act), the normal control system might have a PANIC function, where it would be most likely for all lights to be manually energized, not just those required to reach minimum footcandle levels as in a loss-of-normal-power emergency.

3. Emergency lighting systems mandated for egress in loss-of-normal-power events cannot rely on human intervention to make that happen, no matter how well trained the staff.

ST


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## BillConnerFASTC (Feb 13, 2017)

STEVETERRY said:


> 3. Emergency lighting systems mandated for egress in loss-of-normal-power events cannot rely on human intervention to make that happen, no matter how well trained the staff.
> 
> ST



True, by law, but I am more concerned by the many emergencies not accompanied by loss of power and good design for that event, which I believe is more common than the loss of power event. 

(And hate that use of the word PANIC - a complete red herring.)


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## Jay Ashworth (Feb 13, 2017)

A 0-10V system *can't* go to backup on loss of control signal; loss of control signal is indistinguishable from "Brightness 0"; that's most of the entire point behind DMX, no?


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## STEVETERRY (Feb 13, 2017)

Jay Ashworth said:


> A 0-10V system *can't* go to backup on loss of control signal; loss of control signal is indistinguishable from "Brightness 0"; that's most of the entire point behind DMX, no?



Err...no. You're thinking of "theatrical" 0-10V, when 0 volts is off and 10 volts is full. Typically architectural luminaires with 0-10V control (like fluorescent balllasts or LED drivers) operate differently. They have a current sinking input that is pulled-up internally, so when the control signal is disconnected or goes high impedance, the luminaire goes to full.

So, in this case, there is a difference between "open circuit" and "zero". Many emergency controllers simply interrupt the 0-10V control line with a SPST relay contact upon loss of normal power.

ST


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## Jay Ashworth (Feb 13, 2017)

No, I was thinking of "the only 10V dimming system I've ever heard of in a 35 year career that's touched on damn near every discipline that wasn't medicine." 

I expect that it's probably suboptimal for both of those to be called "10V dimming". 

And this *is* a theatrical forum, after all...


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## STEVETERRY (Feb 13, 2017)

Jay Ashworth said:


> No, I was thinking of "the only 10V dimming system I've ever heard of in a 35 year career that's touched on damn near every discipline that wasn't medicine."
> 
> I expect that it's probably suboptimal for both of those to be called "10V dimming".
> 
> And this *is* a theatrical forum, after all...



And damn those architectural pukes for attempting to usurp our standard, anyway! 
However, if we just count luminaires, guess who's winning? Don't forget, we threw this control method in the garbage in 1986--the year DMX512 was adopted (I was there). It shouldn't surprise us too much that someone else modified (perverted?) it for their market's purpose!

Cheers
ST


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## Jay Ashworth (Feb 14, 2017)

No, I was thinking of "the only 10V dimming system I've ever heard of in a 35 year career that's touched on damn near every discipline that wasn't medicine." 

I expect that it's probably suboptimal for both of those to be called "10V dimming". 

STEVETERRY said:


> And damn those architectural pukes for attempting to usurp our standard, anyway!
> However, if we just count luminaires, guess who's winning? Don't forget, we threw this control method in the garbage in 1986--the year DMX512 was adopted (I was there). It shouldn't surprise us too much that someone else modified (perverted?) it for their market's purpose.



Well, if their design post-dates our deprecation, I guess I'll allow it, especially if the change made it cooler.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Feb 14, 2017)

I thought the current fixture control should be called 10-0 volt, not 0-10.


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## Jay Ashworth (Feb 14, 2017)

So, after some more ground truth, it turns out the rooms already have mickey-mouse lights, and in one of the two rooms, the dimmers are wall-box Lutrons, which appear to be being controlled wirelessly from an adjacent box mounted on the wall, which is listening to 3 or 4 Lutron decora sized 6-button panels.

Hopefully, I can find a way to drive those via DMX, and also to retrofit them in the other room.

And, y'know, find out what they are, since they're not labeled where you can see them. Pics to follow, after Workflow.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Feb 14, 2017)

Jay Ashworth said:


> So, after some more ground truth, it turns out the rooms already have mickey-mouse lights, and in one of the two rooms, the dimmers are wall-box Lutrons, which appear to be being controlled wirelessly from an adjacent box mounted on the wall, which is listening to 3 or 4 Lutron decora sized 6-button panels.
> 
> Hopefully, I can find a way to drive those via DMX, and also to retrofit them in the other room.
> 
> And, y'know, find out what they are, since they're not labeled where you can see them. Pics to follow, after Workflow.


Look at ETCs echo line. Could be something inexpensive modules that fit and give you DMX control.


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## Jay Ashworth (Feb 15, 2017)

As discussed in a different posting thread 3 or 4 months ago, anything that requires me to replace in-box dimming on this project with something like a Sensor bumps the cost up $3-8k *just for electrical labor*, not counting the actual dimmers.

I don't need theatrical-grade control on the house lighting; if I can find a way to take over the Lutron's, I'll take it.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Feb 15, 2017)

Jay Ashworth said:


> As discussed in a different posting thread 3 or 4 months ago, anything that requires me to replace in-box dimming on this project with something like a Sensor bumps the cost up $3-8k *just for electrical labor*, not counting the actual dimmers.
> 
> I don't need theatrical-grade control on the house lighting; if I can find a way to take over the Lutron's, I'll take it.


I didn't say Sensor - I said Echo. Look at their zone controllers. Not "theatrical grade" but still ETC and I think several hundred dollars. Just saying look at what you might spend to drive the existing with DMX.


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## Jay Ashworth (Feb 15, 2017)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> I didn't say Sensor - I said Echo. Look at their zone controllers. Not "theatrical grade" but still ETC and I think several hundred dollars. Just saying look at what you might spend to drive the existing with DMX.


I looked at the ETC echo page, and Sensor were the only actual dimmers I saw listed.

Do you have a product page link for in-box, Bill?


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## BillConnerFASTC (Feb 15, 2017)

http://www.etcconnect.com/Products/...ntrollers/Phase-Adaptive-Dimmer/Features.aspx

Echo zone controllers. You need whatever their DMX interface is called. It just seems this type of device is a lot easier to insert in place of the lutron wall boxes and connect via DMX.


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## Jay Ashworth (Feb 15, 2017)

Ah, those. I bypassed them because they didn't look in-wall; they're not. They apparently expect to bolt onto a blank cover through a hole, leaving the LV and the dimmer outside the wallbox.

I might could get by with building a box around the remains, and the 600W limit might be good enough, but the DMX interface in that system appears to allow *Echo* to drive DMX lighting, rather than the other way round, unless I'm badly misunderstanding their description.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Feb 15, 2017)

Jay Ashworth said:


> Ah, those. I bypassed them because they didn't look in-wall; they're not. They apparently expect to bolt onto a blank cover through a hole, leaving the LV and the dimmer outside the wallbox.
> 
> I might could get by with building a box around the remains, and the 600W limit might be good enough, but the DMX interface in that system appears to allow *Echo* to drive DMX lighting, rather than the other way round, unless I'm badly misunderstanding their description.



Well, you could wire nut the feed and load in the existing box and put a blank cover on, and install this anywhere between the panel and the first light. Exposed or ACP ceiling - easy.

And while I admit some of the literature is not as theatre person friendly, I am pretty sure it works. Look at second page of data sheet:

• Supports DMX pass-through for real-time output of incoming level when recording snapshots
• Meets USITT DMX-512A specifications
• Supports live control and recording for the following fixture profiles:
-- Intensity
-- RGB
-- RGBA
-- RGBW
-- RGB_S (Selador Desire® D22, D40, Source Four® LED Series 1, Source Four LED Series 2)
-- RGB_SF (Desire D60)
-- IRGBS (ColorSource® PAR, Spot)

All I'm saying is if you want DMX control of the existing lights, this could be more economical than getting DMX to control a wallbox dimmer or dimmers, and be more reliable. I found the relay zone control a very cst effective way to control just a few worklight zones.


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## Jay Ashworth (Feb 15, 2017)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> Well, you could wire nut the feed and load in the existing box and put a blank cover on, and install this anywhere between the panel and the first light. Exposed or ACP ceiling - easy.
> 
> And while I admit some of the literature is not as theatre person friendly, I am pretty sure it works. Look at second page of data sheet:
> 
> ...


I hadn't thought about in-ceiling. Might be conduit, thought.

As for the controller, though, again, that seems a box to allow *Echo controllers* to drive DMX fixtures.

Not a box to allow DMX controllers to drive Echo dimmers. Which is what I need.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Feb 15, 2017)

You need to check with your sources but I've been assured it does allow DMX to speak to Echo devices - in particular zone controllers - real time - by the factory and several reps. In any case, I posted teh question rather directly in the ETC Echo forum (which I see does not get much traffic.....)


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## Bryan Palmer (Feb 15, 2017)

I'd like to clarify how the Unison Echo DMX Scene Controller works. I was formerly the Product Manager that had this product developed, and am currently the Architectural Market Manager for ETC.

The DMX Scene Controller does have a DMX input. This input will pass-though DMX to the DMX output for live DMX control of the connected DMX fixtures. That DMX input does not control any other Echo products that may be connected to the control bus. It can be triggered by local control stations to playback DMX scenes/presets (cues for the consoles folks) in conjunction with other Echo enabled power products. The DMX input is only for setup of the scenes that are stored in the controller. Those scenes may also be configured using a mobile device app instead of a DMX console/controller if an EchoAccess interface is part of the system.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Feb 15, 2017)

So not possible to operate an echo zone controller by dmx signal?

Jay - you were right and I was wrong - and was sure I was told differently by several sources who normally represent ETC well.


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## Jay Ashworth (Feb 18, 2017)

Ok; you think he said the same thing I think he said. Good. I'm not going crazy. 

That said, as I've mentioned in a couple other threads, I've located a number of 1-gang 1kw dimmers which speak Zigbee/Z-wave, from GE, Leviton, and I think Lutron. I'm probably going to just buckle down and prototype an Artnet/sACN to Zigbee bridge.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Feb 18, 2017)

I saw. Is all that really less expensive than just putting a good dimmer in? Seems like lots of parts.


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## Jay Ashworth (Feb 19, 2017)

Well, that remains to be seen; a competent electrician hasn't yet been asked for a quote on redoing the existing wiring to reroute it to a pack dimmer. But I expect that to be up into 4 digits, and the dimmers will only be in 3, so...


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## BillConnerFASTC (Feb 19, 2017)

Very layout dependent I imagine. Intercepting a circuit in an electrical closet and installing a single DMX dimmer - lots of them for under $100 it seems - seems much less expensive. Or slip in an ETC Smartmodule for under $1000 - 20 amps over 4 zones.

Replacing wall box with one that can be DMX controlled - needs low voltage or data I presume. 

Just seems the all the products necessary to keep it in a wall box add up and are less reliable and harder to service.

I am curious to know what you find on the Lutron - ZigBee etc route.


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## Jay Ashworth (Feb 19, 2017)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> Very layout dependent I imagine. Intercepting a circuit in an electrical closet and installing a single DMX dimmer - lots of them for under $100 it seems - seems much less expensive. Or slip in an ETC Smartmodule for under $1000 - 20 amps over 4 zones.



Single DMX dimmers for under $100?

Even assuming they would have worked, if you meant those ETC ones, I think you're optimistic about their pricing.


> Replacing wall box with one that can be DMX controlled - needs low voltage or data I presume



The Zigbee dimmers I'm looking at cluster around $50 each.


> Just seems the all the products necessary to keep it in a wall box add up and are less reliable and harder to service.
> 
> I am curious to know what you find on the Lutron - ZigBee etc route.



Meetoo. 

Reliable is an issue, though not about the dimmers proper, I don't think.

On the other side of the coin, the fewer things I make massive changes to, the fewer additional responibilities I acquire. I do feel the need, at least, to present the customer with more than one option (including, "don't worry about the house lights", an option we hope they won't take).


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## BillConnerFASTC (Feb 19, 2017)

Google "1 channel dmx dimmer". I was surprised and I have no praise for Lutron and Leviton wall box dimmers. The ETC is around $1000. It just seemed several devices required between dimmer and DMX, all of which need power and data in and out. (You could get a DMX controlled servo and turn the existing dimmer.) And I didn't look at Alibaba.

Should lead with new LED house lights and then your DMX work is done. Sell it on the RGB house lights!

I understand options.


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## Jay Ashworth (Feb 20, 2017)

It's not impossible that LED house replacements might happen; that'd be a 4th option.

We'll see. The performance people are hot to trot; dunno where the spenders are on it yet.

Couple weeks tops, is my guess, and we'll know.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Feb 20, 2017)

BTW did you look at Ketra lamps? Very easy DMX interface, dimming, color, only electrical is relamping.


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## Jay Ashworth (Feb 20, 2017)

I hadn't inventoried the lamps on the arch side yet, since that wasn't really on my radar before.

Historic building. Built in 1906. Not a lot of leeway on architectural.


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## Jay Ashworth (Feb 20, 2017)

Oh look. Another wireless protocol.

Do they at least have a working DMX bridge that's less than a grand? :-}

(What, me? Cynical?)


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## BillConnerFASTC (Feb 21, 2017)

Jay Ashworth said:


> Oh look. Another wireless protocol.
> 
> Do they at least have a working DMX bridge that's less than a grand? :-}
> 
> (What, me? Cynical?)


Yes and I think around $300. And I saw it work.


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## Jay Ashworth (Feb 21, 2017)

<sigh>

Another manufacturer who believes they are the Hub of the Universe, instead of merely one more component for designers and installers. I *do* wish manufacturers would stop ignoring that audience (since I'm usually in it ).


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## BillConnerFASTC (Feb 21, 2017)

The thing I sort of liked about ketra, is that the seem interested in having a dealer network. Several dealers that have theatre lines - like ETC - also are ketra dealers. Those folks are the resource that some other products don't seem to provide. They have reps on line but my rep lead me to a dealer who had samples up and running in their shop and could talk theatre dimming, DMX, etc.


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## Jay Ashworth (Feb 21, 2017)

Well, there's that.

Only lamps, then, no dimmers of any type?


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## BillConnerFASTC (Feb 21, 2017)

Yes. Replace lamps, feed full power, set up transmitter, go. It may not be right for your project. Need to get a demo.


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