# Color Scrollers



## DCATTechie (May 8, 2008)

My high school is considering purchasing some color scrollers for our S4's. I would like to know what brands are the best (models and all) and about how much this is going to cost. Also, if we do end up getting them how would i go about setting them up. Is it a giant daisy chain? Thanks!


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## DaveySimps (May 8, 2008)

We just purchased Apollo Smartcolor Scrollers for our par 64's this year. In our instance, 6 scrollers, cabeling, and power supplies cost about $3,200. Scrollers for Source IV's would be cheaper and have more color options due to their size.

You are esentially correct, you just daisy chain the signal from unit to unit, and terminate the signal at the end of the chain. There are several different power supply options, so I did not want to be to spicific as to the setup. It also varies as to how you are getting data to them. We have DMX ports on each raceway, so it was easy for us, you may have to string a lot of DMX cable, or get an opto splitter and run several lines to your various lighting positions. If you care to post more spicifics about your set up, I am sure we can give you more spicific answeres.

~Dave


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## DCATTechie (May 8, 2008)

I'd Love all the help i can get. We dont have DMX ports on our raceways so I'll be running the cable by hand. I'm considering buying 6 of them and they'd all be placed on our 1st catwalk (about 100ft. long.) I'm using HPL 575 lamps in my S4's and the scrollers will be placed on 4 zooms and two 26 degrees fixtures. Did I mention our board is an ETX Espression 72/144? Thanks!


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## DaveySimps (May 8, 2008)

It sould be easy for you, depending on where you get your DMX signal from. As I mentioned before, you just chain the scrollers with 4 pin scroller cable and place a 4 pin DMX terminator in the output of the last scroller in the chain. You will want at least a 250 Watt power supply to power all of the scrollers off of one power supply. Your chain will be as follows: DMX out of where ever you are getting it from into the power supply, 4 pin scroller cable out of the power supply into the first unit, 4 pin cable to the next unit and so on until you reach the last unit, then place your DMX terminator in the output of the last unit.

Where are you getting your DMX signal from? Do you have an empty port on stage, or in the booth? This might be your biggest problem. If you do not have an extra port, you may have to buy a DMX splitter and split the signal that you use for your dimmers. Feel free to ask any more questions you may have.

~Dave


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## DCATTechie (May 8, 2008)

i was just going to take the DMX from the 513-1024 port on our board. Excuse my ignorant knowledge if this is wrong


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## DaveySimps (May 8, 2008)

This should work out just fine. Just start your DMX addresses on your scrollers at 512. You can address them all the same if you always want them to be the same color, or you can address them differently for increased programming options. 

~Dave


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## DCATTechie (May 8, 2008)

Thanks! Where would be a cheap place to buy them from? What brand/model? S4's take 7.5 scrollers right?


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## DaveySimps (May 8, 2008)

PM Sent.

~Dave


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## kovacika (May 8, 2008)

Just to clarify....you should address the scrollers at 1, but when using the second universe of that board it will appear in the dimmer patch on the board as 513.


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## DaveySimps (May 8, 2008)

Thanks for clarifying my error. That's what I get for trying to do 8 things at once. Sorry for any confusion I might have caused.

~Dave


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## SteveB (May 8, 2008)

DaveySimps said:


> As I mentioned before, you just chain the scrollers with 4 pin scroller cable and place a 4 pin DMX terminator in the output of the last scroller in the chain. You will want at least a 250 Watt power supply to power all of the scrollers off of one power supply. Your chain will be as follows: DMX out of where ever you are getting it from into the power supply, 4 pin scroller cable out of the power supply into the first unit, 4 pin cable to the next unit and so on until you reach the last unit, then place your DMX terminator in the output of the last unit.
> ~Dave



This is incorrect in some respects and needs clarifying.

The 4 pin cables that connect the scrollers to the power supply are NOT DMX cables. Thus the 4 pin terminator is a DATA terminator, not a DMX terminator. And in truth, I've never seen a 4 pin terminator on the last scroller. 

Most of the scroller manufacturers (all of them I believe), have both data AND power for the scroll motors in the 4 pin cables. DMX cables do not have power in them - unless something is very wrong !.

The DMX signal from the controller only gets as far as the power supply and that is the only place you will see a 5 pin connector (of the scroll systems I've seen).

Note that the scroller manufacturers have formulas for calculating the power supply required, dependent on 4 pin cable length from PS to 1st scroller, as well as the distance between scrollers and the number of scrollers on one line. 

To be clear. 3 pin and 4 pin cables and connectors are not DMX cables. Only 5 pin cables, of the correct cable design, is reffered to as DMX. Anything using 3 pin, may well be carrying a DMX signal, but is generally refered to as 3 pin Data cable.

Steve B.


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## DaveySimps (May 8, 2008)

Please note in my post that I refer to 4 pin cable as scroller cable (this is exactly how most large retailers sell them), not a DMX cable. The OP was looking for a list as to what to buy, that is why I phrased it the way I did. In any event, the 4 pin terminator still terminates the DMX signal, so that was the appropriate term. I saw evidence of this at a recent trade show with Doug Fleenor. He was playing with a scope and showing the graphical representation of what happens to terminated and unterminated signals. One example was a 5 scroller chain, and a 4 pin terminator does indeed make a difference in that it terminates the DMX signal, no matter what connector is providing the signal.

~Dave


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## Grog12 (May 8, 2008)

Funny I spent half of today changing out scrolls in our ForeRunners.


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## Jby007 (May 9, 2008)

My favorite is the CXI's


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## icewolf08 (May 9, 2008)

I think there needs to be a little more clarifying going on in this thread.

*Differences in systems and PSUs:*
Most, if not all scrollers require a PSU (power supply). The PSU takes a DMX input and sends it out along with power over 4-pin XLR to the scrollers. There are two common types of scrollers, the "Chroma-Q" style and the ColoRam style. The biggest difference is that they use different pinouts for power and data. Apollo SmartColors, Chroma-Qs, Wybron ForeRunners, and a bunch of powered accessories use the "Chroma-Q" style PSU. Wybron ColoRam, and CXI use the ColoRam supply. *These two different styles are not compatible with eachother. *

The "Chroma-Q" style PSUs and devices require (or strongly suggest) that you make a loop with the cable. Meaning that you go out from the PSU, daisy-chain to each device, and then run a return cable back to the PSU. This helps keep the voltage up on the line and provides data termination. This is why there are both 4-pin in and out ports on the PSUs. This style PSU also sends raw DMX data to the devices. Each device gets a unique DMX address which is set on each device.

The ColoRam style PSUs do not require to to make a loop. Also, the PSU does not send out raw DMX data. The data stream is translated to a proprietary stream. Each device attached to the PSU gets an address unique to the PSU that it is connected to and the PSU gets a DMX starting address.


*Basic Scroller Types:*
There are two basic types of scrollers, single string and multi-string. Single string scrollers give you a fixed set of colors, while multi-string scrollers allow you to mix colors. Due to the fact that single string scrollers have fewer moving parts and require less control they are significantly less expensive than multi string scrollers. You also get better transmission from single string scrollers since the light does not have to pass through multiple filters. 

Dual string scrollers, while slightly bigger offer you more color flexibility. You will need more control channels for them, but they may eliminate the need to buy or make new strings for each show as you can mix a large number of colors.

-----
As for the OP's situation, I would recommend the Apollo SmartColor Scrollers. IMO they give you the best for the money. I would suggest that you get the SmartColor 7.5 with the universal mounting plate, which you should be able to get for around $350 each plus $45 for custom strings. These units are light, simple to set up, and quiet. They also come with Apollo GelShield to protect the string. The universal mounting plate will allow you to use the scrollers on any fixture that takes a 10" color frame (like a PAR64) or smaller.

You also have to think about where you are going to using the scrollers, not only now, but in the future. You have many options for PSUs in varying wattages. The SmartPower 150 will power up to 5 SmartColor 7.5s. As a user of these scrollers and PSUs, I have a bunch of SP150s so that I can put scrollers anywhere, and if I need more power I just use more PSUs. You have to think that in the future you may not use the scrollers in the same place you are planning to use them now.

One of the other things that you have to keep in mind is that there is a limit to the amount of cable that you can use (or the amount of head feet). This is due to the resistance of the cable. Generally the maximum head feet per 150W PSU is about 200'. This means that even if you only had one device attached to the PSU, you may not get enough power to it if your cable run is over 200'. This of course includes the return run. I don't remember the price of the SP150, but I think that it is around $250-ish.

You can control the scrollers the way you talked about with your ETC Express. If you connect to the 513-1024 jack, you just need to make sure that it is turned on and that you know what addresses it is outputting. I would suggest setting it to output 513-1024. This is the standard universe 2. This would mean that the scroller you set to address 1 the console would see it as dimmer 513. On the Express you would just patch each scroller to a channel and then you can control it like any other device, either with a slider or the keyboard. If you divide 100 by the number of frames in the gel string you should get the percentage increment to figure the center of each frame.

I know that is lot of info, but I think that it should help. It should also help narrow the questioning that is sure to follow.


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## Dustincoc (May 9, 2008)

icewolf08 said:


> The "Chroma-Q" style PSUs and devices require (or strongly suggest) that you make a loop with the cable. Meaning that you go out from the PSU, daisy-chain to each device, and then run a return cable back to the PSU. This helps keep the voltage up on the line and provides data termination. This is why there are both 4-pin in and out ports on the PSUs. This style PSU also sends raw DMX data to the devices. Each device gets a unique DMX address which is set on each device.



I've never looped the cable with our old Chroma-Q's. Never had a problem either. Only problem we had with them is that some of them just stopped working. That's why we got some Coloram II's last fall.


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## mdudgeon (May 9, 2008)

There seems to be some incorrect or rather incomplete information on this thread....

The newer Colorams and CXIs, we call them Coloram IT and CXI IT will work on the same PSUs as the Forerunners, and other peoples gadgets. The older Coloram II and origninal CXI used a proprietary protocol we called CMX and the voltage was reversed from the way other manufacturers did things. DO NOT PLUG AN OLD RAM OR CXI INTO A NEW PS SERIES PSU. You can plug a new Ram into an old PSU, won't work, but also won't cause any harm to the unit.

The newer stuff uses 24v and DMX on the 4 pin cables. We also use RDM (remote device management), if you haven't heard about RDM you really should check it out. You don't need to be running an RDM system to use the newer Wybron color changers.

As a last word of advice... It is a good idea to terminate Color Changers 4 pin cable.


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## SteveB (May 9, 2008)

DaveySimps said:


> Please note in my post that I refer to 4 pin cable as scroller cable (this is exactly how most large retailers sell them), not a DMX cable. The OP was looking for a list as to what to buy, that is why I phrased it the way I did. In any event, the 4 pin terminator still terminates the DMX signal, so that was the appropriate term. I saw evidence of this at a recent trade show with Doug Fleenor. He was playing with a scope and showing the graphical representation of what happens to terminated and unterminated signals. One example was a 5 scroller chain, and a 4 pin terminator does indeed make a difference in that it terminates the DMX signal, no matter what connector is providing the signal.
> 
> ~Dave



Davey, You are correct and an apology is in order.

As may be apparent in my post, I have issues with on-going improper usage of the term "DMX' as applied to data cable and connectors that are not 5 pin and USITT DMX compliant.

This is something I rant about at my space, when a touring tech says to one of my folks - "Daisy these units with 3 pin "DMX" cable", or the touring company electrician who had us daisy from scroller to scroller with "4 pin DMX cable".

Sigh.

SB


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## icewolf08 (May 9, 2008)

Dustincoc said:


> I've never looped the cable with our old Chroma-Q's. Never had a problem either. Only problem we had with them is that some of them just stopped working. That's why we got some Coloram II's last fall.



Real Chroma-Q scrollers actually say in the manual that you need to make a loop. I have some of these also, and they really don't like to work if I don't make a loop. However, I am glad they worked for you until now. 


mdudgeon said:


> There seems to be some incorrect or rather incomplete information on this thread....
> 
> The newer Colorams and CXIs, we call them Coloram IT and CXI IT will work on the same PSUs as the Forerunners, and other peoples gadgets. The older Coloram II and origninal CXI used a proprietary protocol we called CMX and the voltage was reversed from the way other manufacturers did things. DO NOT PLUG AN OLD RAM OR CXI INTO A NEW PS SERIES PSU. You can plug a new Ram into an old PSU, won't work, but also won't cause any harm to the unit.
> 
> The newer stuff uses 24v and DMX on the 4 pin cables. We also use RDM (remote device management), if you haven't heard about RDM you really should check it out. You don't need to be running an RDM system to use the newer Wybron color changers.



I haven't used or really read about the new IT line of Wybron products so that is why I am missing info. The last time I used Wybron scrollers I was using RamIIs. (But it is sure nice to have some guys from Wybron on CB!)


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## derekleffew (May 9, 2008)

mdudgeon said:


> ...As a last word of advice... It is a good idea to terminate Color Changers' 4-pin cable.


Never done this, but not sure if I've ever worked with a ___IT version. Which two pins get the 120Ω resistor? 

I always do the loop-back (return) on the ChromaQs, unless it's a single scroller on the line, close to the PSU.


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## STEVETERRY (May 9, 2008)

SteveB said:


> Davey, You are correct and an apology is in order.
> 
> As may be apparent in my post, I have issues with on-going improper usage of the term "DMX' as applied to data cable and connectors that are not 5 pin and USITT DMX compliant.
> 
> ...



My Hero!

ST


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## derekleffew (May 9, 2008)

STEVETERRY and SteveB: you're both my heroes. 

On the other side of the coin, today when I asked "Can I get a replacement for this 10' 5pin XLR cable? (almost cut in half by a swing wing arm)" the crew-chief said "You mean a DMX cable?"

To some, 5pin is called "DMX," 4pin is called "RAM," and 3pin is called "XLR." I find the latter two manufacturer-specific and vague.


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## DaveySimps (May 10, 2008)

No worries. I too am a stickler for proper terminology most times. 

~Dave


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## rosebudld (May 11, 2008)

We've got 16 Apollo Smart Color 7.25 for our Source Four Par EA's and they work pretty well.. the gel string my PM ordered for their initial installation is a little weird but works in a variety of situations for in house productions.


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## Charc (May 11, 2008)

So, what would you guys say is the correct terminology for 3, 4, and 5 pin cables for DMX-512 data distribution?

5 Pin DMX Cable
4 Pin Scroller Cable
3 Pin Data Cabe

?


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## SteveB (May 11, 2008)

charcoaldabs said:


> So, what would you guys say is the correct terminology for 3, 4, and 5 pin cables for DMX-512 data distribution?
> 
> 5 Pin DMX Cable
> 4 Pin Scroller Cable
> ...



That's what I call them. I wonder 'bout the 4 pin DMX terminator though. Probably wants to be called a 4 pin Data terminator. 

And something that's not clear to me. Is the data that goes from the power supply to the heads actually DMX ?, or do the manufacturers use something proprietary ? (besides power). I ask as in theory on a 4 pin scroller cable, I assume one of the pins is a shield. 2 others should be power positive and negative (If DC, which I assume the power is). I assume then that data plus uses the remaining pin, with data minus sharing the ground with the power pair ?. Or is it power uses the shield as ground/negative, allowing 2 dedicated pins for data ?.

Need to be enlightened.

Steve B.


SB


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## soundlight (May 11, 2008)

SteveB said:


> That's what I call them. I wonder 'bout the 4 pin DMX terminator though. Probably wants to be called a 4 pin Data terminator.
> 
> And something that's not clear to me. Is the data that goes from the power supply to the heads actually DMX ?, or do the manufacturers use something proprietary ? (besides power). I ask as in theory on a 4 pin scroller cable, I assume one of the pins is a shield. 2 others should be power positive and negative (If DC, which I assume the power is). I assume then that data plus uses the remaining pin, with data minus sharing the ground with the power pair ?. Or is it power uses the shield as ground/negative, allowing 2 dedicated pins for data ?.



I've assembled a enough scroller cables to take a stab, but not enough to remember the numbers of the pins in which each resides...
Data + and Data - on their own pins, power on another, common neutral/ground. That's the way that I understand it. I could be wrong, though. And I never use 4 pin terminators, I always do a return run to the power supply.


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## Sean (May 11, 2008)

SteveB said:


> And something that's not clear to me. Is the data that goes from the power supply to the heads actually DMX ?, or do the manufacturers use something proprietary ? (besides power).
> 
> Steve B.
> SB



Forerunners, etc, (including ColoRam IT) send DMX and 24vdc power. ColoRam II uses proprietary data.

--Sean


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## icewolf08 (May 11, 2008)

Sean said:


> Forerunners, etc, (including ColoRam IT) send DMX and 24vdc power. ColoRam II uses proprietary data.
> 
> --Sean



Also using plain DMX are Chroma-Qs and Apollo SmartColors.


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## Sean (May 11, 2008)

icewolf08 said:


> Also using plain DMX are Chroma-Qs and Apollo SmartColors.



Yes, my point being all those devices using the Forerunner pin-out.

This also includes Apollo rotators, Rosco I-cue, etc....

--Sean


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## derekleffew (May 11, 2008)

mdudgeon said:


> There seems to be some incorrect or rather incomplete information on this thread....
> 
> The newer Colorams and CXIs, we call them Coloram IT and CXI IT will work on the same PSUs as the Forerunners, and other peoples gadgets. The older Coloram II and original CXI used a proprietary protocol we called CMX and the voltage was reversed from the way other manufacturers did things. DO NOT PLUG AN OLD RAM OR CXI INTO A NEW PS SERIES PSU. You can plug a new Ram into an old PSU, won't work, but also won't cause any harm to the unit.
> 
> ...



More confusion. Wybron's "CMX" is/was not the same as the Colortran's Prestige/Patchman "CMX", upon which USITT DMX-512-1986 was based. (I'm sure that won't matter to anyone.)

I've never terminated any product; never knew such a thing as 4pin terminator existed. Wybron products DO NOT need to be returned to the PSU. In fact, there's no male 4pin to plug into. Wybron is also the only manufacturer that requires calculation of "Head-Feet". 

The pin-out for Wybron PS power supplies, for use with "the NexeraLX and the Forerunner, as well as all new InfoTrace products: Coloram IT, CXI IT, Eclipse IT, and Eclipse II IT" is as follows:
XLR Pin # Wire Color Function Size 
1 White Ground 14 AWG 
2 Green Data - 22 AWG 
3 Red Data + 22 AWG 
4 Black 24VDC 14 AWG 

The pin-out for the older RamII power supplies, for use with "the entire family of Coloram II Color Changers, CXI Color Mixers, Eclipse I and II Mechanical Dowsers and Goboram II Gobo Rotators" is:
XLR Pin # Wire Color Function Size 
1 White 24 Volts DC14 AWG 
2 Green Data - 22 AWG 
3 Red Data + 22 AWG 
4 Black Ground 14 AWG 

Page 39 of the CXI IT User Manual states: "Signal termination: None required".
I don't mean to contradict you, mdudgeon; just seeking clarification. I think we need an official statement from ReddyKilowatt. He's only posted once, and hasn't responded to my PM, so if you know him, give him a kick.

All other manufacturers' products should have a return to the power supply, to counteract voltage drop as well as provide data termination.
The pin-out for the Apollo SmartColor® is:
The correct wiring between male and female connectors is ‘one to one’.
PIN # Function Minimum Cable size
1 GND (-ve) 14 AWG (2.00mm²)
2 Control data minus (-) 22 AWG (0.35mm²)
3 Control data plus (+) 22 AWG (0.35mm²)
4 24 VDC (+ve) 14 AWG (2.00mm²)
Chassis Cable shield/Drain wire 24 AWG (0.25mm²)

ChromaQ (and I'm guessing Rosco) uses the same pin-out.


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## ReddyKilowatt (May 11, 2008)

derekleffew said:


> More confusion. Wybron's "CMX" is/was not the same as the Colortran's Prestige/Patchman "CMX", upon which USITT DMX-512-1986 was based. (I'm sure that won't matter to anyone.)
> 
> I've never terminated any product; never knew such a thing as 4pin terminator existed. Wybron products DO NOT need to be returned to the PSU. In fact, there's no male 4pin to plug into. Wybron is also the only manufacturer that requires calculation of "Head-Feet".
> 
> ...



No need to kick me, I'll be happy to respond As far as the information here, to the best of my knowledge (I'm not on trial, right?) this is all correct. I will also point out that the Morpheus ColorFader scrollers use a different pin-out. The data and 24VDC pins are switched.


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## derekleffew (May 11, 2008)

ReddyKilowatt, the question remains: Do Wybron products using the newer PS model of PSU require the DMX to be terminated via a 120Ω resistor between pins 2&3 on an empty A4M? Or is the answer the same as with the termination of any other DMX signal: "One *should*, but not everyone does"?


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## mdudgeon (May 12, 2008)

Now I'm just the marketing guy.... 

Termination is one of those, you should but most people don't things.

99 times out of 100 its been no problem. Its DMX on the four pin xlr lines, so follow best practices whenever you can.

-Miles


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## Kelite (May 15, 2008)

derekleffew said:


> ReddyKilowatt, the question remains: Do Wybron products using the newer PS model of PSU require the DMX to be terminated via a 120Ω resistor between pins 2&3 on an empty A4M? Or is the answer the same as with the termination of any other DMX signal: "One *should*, but not everyone does"?





While the DMX termination (using a 4 pin terminator) is a very real and valid protective move to guard against data reflection down the line, the use of a return cable will do two things:

1) Terminate the signal with a 120 Ohm resistor when a home-run is used with an Apollo and other PSUs.

And

2) 24VDC is sent through both cables, maintaining line voltage for the entire scroller circuit. This minimizes power 'slugs' (not the critter) to the system that may cause a scroller to fall out and recalibrate. (This scenario can be highly noticable and embarassing...)


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## n1ist (May 16, 2008)

ColorRangers are also DMX, but with a different pinout. I have some that I feed with 24V (actually 19V) from a power supply and just tie into my standard DMX feed.

Make sure your pinout matches between the power supply and scroller; it's too easy to let the smoke out if they don't.


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## ReddyKilowatt (May 19, 2008)

Ok, so the OFFICIAL response from the Wybron engineering dept is that you should terminate the power supply just like any other DMX fixture. No termination of the scrollers is necessary.


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## derekleffew (May 19, 2008)

ReddyKilowatt said:


> ...No termination of the scrollers is necessary.


Thank you! This explains why I've never seen, or even heard of, an A4M terminator.


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## DCATTechie (May 20, 2008)

Not to get off topic of DMX termination, but, S4's take a 6.25 inch scroller right? Are there any conversion plates that take a 7.25 inch scroller fit a S4?


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## Sean (May 20, 2008)

DCATTechie said:


> Not to get off topic of DMX termination, but, S4's take a 6.25 inch scroller right? Are there any conversion plates that take a 7.25 inch scroller fit a S4?



Well....

They take a 6.25" plate. You can get plates for a variety of light/scroller combinations.

In the Wybron world, a 4" scroller is the size you use on a S4 Leko. But, many many companies buy 7" scrollers so that they can be used on 6" fresnels, S4 PAR's, etc.

--Sean


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## Kelite (May 20, 2008)

DCATTechie said:


> Not to get off topic of DMX termination, but, S4's take a 6.25 inch scroller right? Are there any conversion plates that take a 7.25 inch scroller fit a S4?



The Apollo Smart Color 7.25 is available with a universal mounting plate, allow the end-user to choose 6.25 (ellipsoidals), 7.5 (Source Four PARs), or 10 inch (PAR 64 fixtures) fixtures for use. This versatility is helpful in roadhouse environments, where needs change by the week....


http://www.internetapollo.com/Products/View/2249.aspx


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## rosebudld (May 20, 2008)

I use Apollo Smart Colors on my Source Four Pars and have been happy with them so far.


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## DCATTechie (May 21, 2008)

Woops! Made a mistake! I'm actually trying to run these scrollers off of an ETC EXPRESS 72/144 NOT an EXPRESSION. This shouldn't change anything should it???


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## icewolf08 (May 21, 2008)

DCATTechie said:


> Woops! Made a mistake! I'm actually trying to run these scrollers off of an ETC EXPRESS 72/144 NOT an EXPRESSION. This shouldn't change anything should it???



Software is the same on the consoles, the difference is in how many devices you can control. On the Express you have fewer control channels.


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## DCATTechie (May 22, 2008)

How many control channels will I have?


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## icewolf08 (May 23, 2008)

DCATTechie said:


> How many control channels will I have?



The total channel count of the Express 72/144 is 240. You have direct physical control of 144 via the faders if you are set in single scene mode, the rest of the channels you have to call using the keypad.


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## DCATTechie (May 27, 2008)

Alrighty one more thing ladies and gentleman! So I'm hearing different things from different people. If i wanted to fit an Apollo Smartcolor to a Source Four 26 or 36 degree fixture, which mounting plate size would i get (model name?). Or in other words, which size would i get, the 5.25, 7.25, or 10?


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## derekleffew (May 27, 2008)

For maximum versatility, I'd get the Universal Mounting Plate. 

But specifically for the SourceFour 19°-50°, use the _AC-MPLATE-3, _mounting plate. Or, for the complete assembly,_ SC-SCROLL-7-MP3__._

Kelite, I think there's an error on the specs page for the AC-MPLATE-3, as the 14°, 70°, and 90° use a 7.5"x7.5" frame, not a 6.25"x6.25".


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## dstowell (May 27, 2008)

Did you ask where to get them? I would like to know if anyone has preferences on purchases like these Scrollers? I found Lighttheatrics online and they seem to be the cheapest, but i dunno....??? Any advice about where to get scrollers and the like???


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## derekleffew (May 27, 2008)

Cheapest may not always be best. Support your local theatrical dealer. An Internet vendor is not going to be able to get you repair or replacement parts in an hour, or help you out when you need something for a show at the last minute.


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## Kelite (May 28, 2008)

derekleffew said:


> For maximum versatility, I'd get the Universal Mounting Plate.
> 
> But specifically for the SourceFour 19°-50°, use the _AC-MPLATE-3, _mounting plate. Or, for the complete assembly,_ SC-SCROLL-7-MP3__._
> 
> Kelite, I think there's an error on the specs page for the AC-MPLATE-3, as the 14°, 70°, and 90° use a 7.5"x7.5" frame, not a 6.25"x6.25".




Yes, you are absolutely right Derek. Let me bounce this over to our web designer/maintainer and get that oversight corrected. Thank ytou for pointing that out!

DCATTechie-
The best choice for a variety of beam angles within the 6.25 inch color frame range would certainly be the Smart Color 7.25, as this aperture allows plenty of light output for fixtures from 19* to 50*, while offering a lightweight package. The Universal Mounting plate is a great choice for venues enlisting a wide variety of fixtures with numerous color frame sizes.

Thanks again Derek! 


(The Apollo website has been changed to indicate the proper mounting plates for the above mentioned fixtures. Carry on!)


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## DCATTechie (May 29, 2008)

Another question. how do i patch these scrollers into the Express 72/144 and how do i "dial in" the color that I want?


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## icewolf08 (Jun 4, 2008)

DCATTechie said:


> Another question. how do i patch these scrollers into the Express 72/144 and how do i "dial in" the color that I want?



Each scroller gets a unique DMX address, which is set on the scroller via three knobs (assuming Apollo SmartColors). One knob for the 100's, one for 10's and one for 1's. You will need to set an address with these, which I will get to later.

First off, you need to figure out where you are going to feed data from. Are you going to passthrough from your dimmers? Are you going to run a second line right from the console? Are you running a DMX splitter?

If you are daisy chaining out from your dimmers then you would need to set the address of the first scroller above the address of the last dimmer. So, if you have 96 dimmers, you could set the first scroller to 97 (or anything above 96). This also applies if you were taking one output from the console and running to to a splitter and then to the dimmers and scrollers as they are still on the same universe. In this setup the scroller addressed to 97 would correspond to "dimmer" 97 in PATCH.

However, your Express supports two universes, so you could run a DMX line from the second output on the back of the console to the scrollers. You also need to make sure that in the system settings on the console you have that port turned on and set to output 513-1024. Using this method of hookup you could address the first scroller as 1, which would correspond to "dimmer" 513 in PATCH.

Once you hook up your scrollers you can patch them the same as you would any dimmer in the patch screen. Normally, on a console like the Express where channels don't have attributes I would patch the fixtures to channels 1-12 and then the scrollers on those fixtures to channels 21-32. Why? Because the Express displays channels in 20 across so the intensity channel would be right above the scroller channel. You don't have to do it this way, I just think that it makes life easier.

To figure out where each color lies, you would take 100 and devide by the number of color frames in the gel string less one. So, if you have a 16 frame string you would think: 100/15=6.66. So every 6.66% that you move the fader you will be (theoretically) centered in the next frame. Since you can't do partial percents you may just find that 07 or 06 is where you need to be for frame 1 and then around 13 for frame 2, etc. You can also record each color as a group and then call the groups up instead of having to fumble with faders or the keypad each time you need to change color.


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## soundman (Jun 4, 2008)

derekleffew said:


> For maximum versatility, I'd get the Universal Mounting Plate.



When we demoed our smart colors they came with the universal mounting plate. We were going to buy the 7.5s" so it was only to change between 6 1/4" and 7 1/2" I found the plate to be a pain to deal with and it is much quicker to just swap frames. The other issue I had was there was alot of light bouncing back from the heat shield that is blocked with the one size bracket that is not blocked with the universal plate. I do not know the price difference on universal VS buying two plates but it is something to think about.


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## icewolf08 (Jun 5, 2008)

soundman said:


> When we demoed our smart colors they came with the universal mounting plate. We were going to buy the 7.5s" so it was only to change between 6 1/4" and 7 1/2" I found the plate to be a pain to deal with and it is much quicker to just swap frames. The other issue I had was there was alot of light bouncing back from the heat shield that is blocked with the one size bracket that is not blocked with the universal plate. I do not know the price difference on universal VS buying two plates but it is something to think about.



When I bought my SmartColors, it was cheaper to buy the UMP as opposed to each backplate that we would have needed. Just to play opposite you soundman I find that the UMPs may take slightly more time to setup, but when you factor in the fact that with individual plates you need a place to store them and not misplace them, and every time you want to change you have to grab new plates. I almost always have my SmartColors ready to go before my Chroma-Qs since for the chroma-Qs we have to change mounting plates.

One tip though, and maybe Apollo should add this in as standard on the UMPs. I suggest taking a paint pen, or silver Sharpie and marking the plates so that you know how far you have to move them for the different lights. PAR64s are easy since that is all the way open (on the SC7.5) but some of the other sizes are easier to get to if they are marked.


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## soundman (Jun 5, 2008)

icewolf08 said:


> When I bought my SmartColors, it was cheaper to buy the UMP as opposed to each backplate that we would have needed. Just to play opposite you soundman I find that the UMPs may take slightly more time to setup, but when you factor in the fact that with individual plates you need a place to store them and not misplace them, and every time you want to change you have to grab new plates. I almost always have my SmartColors ready to go before my Chroma-Qs since for the chroma-Qs we have to change mounting plates.



We store the plates in the scroller road case so that isn't a problem for us. In out situation we also have a large amount of free labor so the time issue is not a killer either. I guess a case by case basis is the way to choose what route you go.



icewolf08 said:


> One tip though, and maybe Apollo should add this in as standard on the UMPs. I suggest taking a paint pen, or silver Sharpie and marking the plates so that you know how far you have to move them for the different lights. PAR64s are easy since that is all the way open (on the SC7.5) but some of the other sizes are easier to get to if they are marked.



I agree 100% this was another turn off, its something that would not take that long to do but I don't think it is the end users responsibility to do things that should be done when they are manufactured. Even a dimple in the metal for 6 1/4, 7 1/2, and 10" would make me happy.


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## Charc (Jun 5, 2008)

soundman said:


> We store the plates in the scroller road case so that isn't a problem for us. In out situation we also have a large amount of free labor so the time issue is not a killer either. I guess a case by case basis is the way to choose what route you go.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



*Keith!* Hint: Dimple.


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## Kelite (Jun 9, 2008)

charcoaldabs said:


> *Keith!* Hint: Dimple.





http://downloads.goapollo.com/smart color Manual - May 08.pdf

Check out page 12, and you'll see the 'dimple' was added just a few months ago. 

Thanks for all your comments, gang!


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## derekleffew (Jun 9, 2008)

Kelite said:


> ...Thanks for all your comments, gang!


Now, about those spelling errors...


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