# Theatre remodel proposal video



## stagecraft101 (Oct 16, 2012)

Hi, I am planning to put together a proposal for a major change in the theatre I am the TD at. The stage has a thrust that is also a elevator that is 300 sqft with a 6k lb capacity. I use it as a pit for the orchestra and moving stock from the basement storage to the stage. The Problem is that it is 37 years old, and is out of service a lot and need to be replaced, at a cost of ~ $300k. I have made a video about the changes I would do with that kind of $$$. 

I would like some feed back on the plan. One man dream is another's man's nightmare.

Take a look 


bpac pr 07 2 - YouTube


Thanks
Zip


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## derekleffew (Oct 16, 2012)

Nicely done presentation; interesting proposal. Trading an orchestra pit lift for stage trap s, beam trolley s, and six chain hoist s. I'm pretty certain I'd rather have the lift. 


stagecraft101 said:


> ... The Problem is that it is 37 years old, and is out of service a lot and need to be replaced, at a cost of ~ $300k. ...


Have you investigated non-hydraulic piston type lifts? Screw jack: LiftDeck - Stage and Orchestra Lift | InterAmerica Stage, Inc. or SpiraLift: Stage lifts | Piano and Orchestra platform lift systems , maybe?

Is there no other elevator access to the traproom /under stage area? If not, I've seen 8'x8' or 10'x10' freight "elevators" that can be retrofitted into an existing building, most use a high-capacity chain hoist. Has to be less than 300K; Chicago Spotlight had one in their Waveland Ave. location. I'd hate to give up that much floorspace in an upstage corner, but just don't feel traps and hoists is money well-spent.



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## stagecraft101 (Oct 16, 2012)

derekleffew,
Thanks for the links on the non hydraulic lift systems. There is no other elevator access to the "trap room" the existing traps are 16 ft US and are 3ft (US/DS) x 10ft (SR/SL) and are useless for moving stock up or down or using for scenic trap as they are to far US for the half the house to see. 

Why Do you think hoist and traps are not money well spend? 

The last part of this is that the Elevator pit is the lowest spot in the building and the is a sump pump in there. All the time it sounds like a river is running under the thrust. The pumps are very loud when they are on. The college installed sewage ejector pumps because the silt in the water was killing the standard sump pumps. One part of the plan is to make the whole pit a silt settlement tank and go back to using a quieter pumps. Ever time the pumps turn on the whole audience turns and looks around for where the sound is coming from. I had that in the video but my boss said that was to much info at this time for the administration so I took it out.

Thanks again.
Zip


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## MPowers (Oct 16, 2012)

The presentation is nice and slick. It is especially suitable for not technical minded administrators, architects, board members and donors. For presentation to other tech theatre pros, engineers and theatre consultants it needs to be more to the point, faster paced and possibly provide voice over with tech details instead of music.

That said, I too advise at least getting initial quotes from non hydraulic lift manufacturers. My personal choices are Push Chain Lifts by Serapid Serapid is your Stage Lift, Orchestra Lift, Stage Engineering Specialist and SpiraLift by Gala Systems Stage lifts | Piano and Orchestra platform lift systems in that order. Both could replace the existing lift without caissons for cylinders. 

My immediate thought is that you would be trading a versatile lift/freight elevator for a highly labor intensive change over process. Also you are changing a one man, 30 minute, operation to move even heavy items, (as long as they are on wheels,) for a 4 person minimum, 2 hours at least, call, just to move a piano. Note: I do not know the usage of the space in terms of type of events and number of events. Note: for this purpose, "event" = any use of the stage and/or pit and or auditorium that excludes other activities in the space. This includes Classes, rehearsals, school assemblies, set/scenery assembly time, as well as actual performances of any type. Your use may make this a moot point or a highly important one. 

Regardless of what you do, the pit filler decks are an excellent idea, even with a functional lift, due to the variety of configurations that can be achieved for presentation. A custom look for a specific show design might be achieved with only a few custom built units instead of 10 - 15 platforms, a real time and $$ saver. 

I also think the traps would be an excellent addition to the usefulness of the space, *IF* they are designed and engineered properly in terms of size, shape and structural integrity. When all the traps are in place, you don't want support posts in the space below if that is your shop space. If the space below the stage is just storage, then posts are not such a concern. 

Last, but certainly not least is the issue of how the steel track beams and the stress of a lifting and shifting loads will affect the existing structure. You don't show any existing rigging, but the spacing of the existing beams appears to be spaced like loft wells for conventional rigging. Do you have any rigging in place and would the tracking hoists create any interference with existing rigging or tracks or soft goods??

This has the ear marks of a very interesting project, I hope you keep us appraised of the progress.


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## stagecraft101 (Oct 16, 2012)

Micheal,
Thanks, This video is directed to the administrators to see what they think. I still not even sure it is a great idea. College has been spending ~ 10k + a year to maintain it the lift, more than we get in all my yearly budgets for all supplies. 

The grand piano is always in the way and any time I move it on to the elevator it get knocked out of tune because of the gap between the elevator and the stage. I would love to just leave the grand in the pit and bring in a upright for rehearsals. Anytime I would be opening the traps would be a full work call day and I would move all the stock around and replace the traps.

Having a custom built filler for the pit would be great for years I have been building overbuilds of many types over that pit. 
The space below is just used for storage and the concrete beams run US TO DS and ~ 6' off center so a ~ 12 ft trap line would work.

The theatre has a fly loft with 29 linesets with 4 of them being prewired electrics. I would guess there is a load of ~ 20k on the loft now in lights, softgoods and wiring. I am thinking that the the structure would take the load, but that would be up to a engineer. There two spaces in the linesets for the track beams one mid stage and one US of that, the DS track would have some issues with being useful without breasting some linesets out of the way. 

Thanks Again
Take Care
Zip

PS. here is a link to some video of the that was shot on this stage that I TD for.


Musical theatre clips - YouTube 


Dreamgirls - ain't no party HD - YouTube


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## bdkdesigns (Oct 17, 2012)

I didn't watch the whole thing yet but check your spelling before you show it to anybody. Especially in that first slide.


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## JChenault (Oct 17, 2012)

Re the presentation. I saw at least one spelling error that looked like a typo. (I think it was Relpaced ). I also got frustrated that you presented a number of captions twice one after another. What software did you use?

As for the idea, it seems strange to me to sacrifice a lift for traps. What is not clear to me is the problem you are trying to solve. Is it the yearly maintenance cost, or the sump pump noise or what? 

I would seriously consider how you plan to get heavy items from the trap room up to the stage level. It's not clear how you see that working. 

You're adding steel tracks for the hoists running stage right to stage left, but you show the hoists only for lifting the pit covers. Is it your intent to be able to use these for other purposes? Putting on my admin hat I would question the need for a full width track based on the presentation. If you want full width you need to explain why


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## MPowers (Oct 17, 2012)

stagecraft101 said:


> .........The grand piano is always in the way and any time I move it on to the elevator it get knocked out of tune because of the gap between the elevator and the stage. I would love to just leave the grand in the pit and bring in a upright for rehearsals..............



How big is that gap??? Concider getting a couple of mini-dock plates, i.e. a piece of 6" x 1/4" aluminum "T" stock about 18" - 24" long. Taper the leading edges with a grinder, place in the gap with the stem down. 

Leave the grand in the pit? As soon as you disable the lift with the piano down, someone will want it up for a performance (and verse/visa). Just IMHO and from past experience.


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## tjrobb (Oct 17, 2012)

Sand interceptors are your friend. Normally used outside, they do what they sound like - take silt out of water en route to somewhere else. Then once or twice a year, on a dark day, you have a company come clean it out. FWIW, you'll need a structural engineer to add traps to a stage. They can be rather pricey.


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## museav (Oct 17, 2012)

Very nice video, but it seems like there may be numerous structural, accessibility, life safety, electrical and other building system aspects involved and you might want to consider some review of the proposed solution with an Architect, Structural Engineer and any other related design professionals before presenting it to your Administration.

As an example, how might the removable stage sections and header impact the stage and possibly even general building structure? Is there any sprinkler piping, plumbing, ductwork, conduit, etc. in the areas being removed that would have to be relocated? How might the removable sections affect any life safety, HVAC and/or acoustic separation from the spaces below?

Have you verified that there is power available for the chain hoists and should there be some preliminary verification that the stage house structure can support the loads planned?

How do you plan to address ADA accessibility and exiting for the orchestra? If you make significant changes related to exiting, accessibility and/or life safety you may be required to meet the latest building codes and ADA requirements for the areas affected and that could end up with the work being more extensive than you envision.


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## Footer (Oct 18, 2012)

I have been sitting on this for a few days in order to not blow your head off here. However, even after sitting for a few days I still believe that this is the worst idea you could possibly have. With this move you are totally locking the space into an arrangement that simply does not work for the current economy.

I am not a fan of venues in general with trap room storage that is only accessible with a pit elevator. It locks you into only being able to move stuff when the pit is clear... and we all know that the second you have to move something is 5 minutes after you pinned up the pit. However, having a trap room that is only accesable by pulling in motors from the grid AND requires a clear stage might just make it the worst arrangement possible. Point blank, if you do this within 5 years you will not be storing a single thing in that trap room. Unless you have alternative storage spaces you might as well just scrap this whole plan. 

In the current economy, labor numbers are needing to get smaller for every show. If you take a move that was as simple at "take the pit down, pushing something on, take the pit up", to " clear the deck, pull pit plugs, rig gear to fly, fly gear, put pit covers back". That added a day to your call. That made your space less flexible. It made doing a show more expensive for the venue and your clients. Even if you have student labor, you are still taking a full day to do something that used to take 10 minutes... and every day you are spending moveing these plugs is a day butts are not in the seats. 

You also have to remember that you are not the only person that will ever run this place. Personally, if I walked in to your space as a new TD and was told what the process is for getting gear in and out of the trap room I would laugh and then never use that storage space. Anything down there I would consider dead to the world. I would then be REALLY mad at the last guy who had the pit removed in order to save a few hundred thousand. Finally, I would be hacked if I had a grand piano but it could not come out of the pit. You are then locked into renting a piano anytime an artist wants to use one onstage. 

SPEND the money now. Do the project right. Get better pumps. Get an override timer to turn the pumps off just for shows (one of those 5 hour spin timers works great for this). You will spend way more than 300k in labor/venue time over the next 5 years dealing with this situation. I also doubt that this reconfiguration will save you any money. Getting the pit covers is nice. Push for that. However, your solution is kind of like taking the engine out of a car and replacing it with a wound up rubber band. Don't assume you will be there forever. Also, don't assume that what you are doing in the theatre now is what the place will be doing forever. 

Finally, on the piano thing, odds are you are knocking the piano more out of tune by moving it from room to room then on the gap. Fast changes in temperature and humidity can do more damage to a tuning than anything else. I would also suggest you get a spider dolly for your piano that has large casters. I move both our Steinway's between our two spaces in a freight elevator wtih about an inch and a half gap and have never had major issues with tuning. I always try to move them to the venue they will be used in at lest 24 hours before the event. We also tune before every event, which you should be doing anyway.


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