# Trap Lift--Cost ideas



## craftythecoyote87 (Nov 29, 2011)

First post on CB, though frequent guest and idea-stealer. 

We're a few months out from putting up _Chicago_ and need to decide soon if we're going through with a lift to take Velma from the orchestra pit to stage floor (about 7 ft from pit floor to stage floor). We blew our season budget on the opening show so cost (and hourly pay for man hours on the build) is a real concern. We've constructed a lift in-house before, but it was expensive and took a chunk of time. I'm trying to find rental information, which is proving to be difficult with the amount of industrial lifts about, and was hoping you guys could give me recommendations on the best and cheapest places to look to rent--and a ballpark figure of how much a 4 week rental would cost if you have an idea. I've searched the forums but mostly found info about (or perhaps rather against...) in house construction.

I'm meeting with the director this week and need to be able to say if it's something even possible with our budget, and being that I personally have never built or used a lift, I feel very frustratingly unequipped to make that call. 

Thanks for any help.


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## quesauce (Nov 29, 2011)

I'm unaware of anyone offering theatrical lifts for rent. That doesn't mean they don't exist, but in my experience lifts are usually custom built to suit the venue/application/safety requirements. An industrial lift might be your best option but it won't be pretty. 

Another option is a performer flying rig with a swing/bosun's style chair to fly the performer. The performer would need to wear a safety belt and be attached to the seat and you would need an operator (if using a winch) or a flyman (if using a manual system) but you would need someone to run a lift as well. If you're interested, ZFX is located in Lexington, KY and could easily provide a solution for you.

If I had to ballpark a winch and control, I would say $1500 to $2000 a week.


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## derekleffew (Nov 29, 2011)

quesauce said:


> I'm unaware of anyone offering theatrical lifts for rent. ...


In Las Vegas, I've rented elevators from A&D Scenery many times. In Chicago, Chicago Scenic. Also, Hydraulic Lifts by B and R Scenery. None close to NC (you might also try contacting nearby university theatre depts.--supposedly there are some, allegedly, good theatre schools in NC?). Tait Towers may be a more geographically favorable option. Hudson Scenic and other NYC scenic companies likely also have solutions. $5,000-$10,000, exclusive of shipping, for a 4-week rental sounds approximately correct.

Converting an industrial scissor-type lift isn't really a good option for a DIY-er, particularly when budget-challenged. See also the thread http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/scenery-props-rigging/3640-counterweight-elevator-trapdoor.html .


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## quesauce (Nov 30, 2011)

derekleffew said:


> In Las Vegas, I've rented elevators from A&D Scenery many times. In Chicago, Chicago Scenic. Also, Hydraulic Lifts by B and R Scenery . None close to NC; Tait Towers may be a more geographically favorable option. Hudson Scenic and other NYC scenic companies likely also have solutions. $5,000-$10,000 for a 4-week rental sounds approximately correct.
> 
> Converting an industrial scissor-type lift isn't really a good option for a DIY-er, particularly when budget-challenged. See also the thread http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/scenery-props-rigging/3640-counterweight-elevator-trapdoor.html .



I gladly stand corrected! Do the rental lifts come with the requisite safety equipment for handling people? The only pictures I saw of lifts didn't show any safe edge/light curtains/etc..

To be clear, I'm not condoning modifying an industrial lift at all. I would say that something like a Genie lift could be used as is.


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## derekleffew (Nov 30, 2011)

quesauce said:


> I gladly stand corrected! Do the rental lifts come with the requisite safety equipment for handling people? The only pictures I saw of lifts didn't show any safe edge.


"Requisite" is in the eye of the beholder, isn't it? But, in my experience (for one-off corporate shows or concerts), rental lifts come with something even more important: a skilled, trained, experienced operator!


http://www.fullerstreet.com/Rentals/Rental_Items/StageRental/Elevator/StageElevatorRental2011.html


Stage Elevator Video - YouTube


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## quesauce (Nov 30, 2011)

derekleffew said:


> "Requisite" is in the eye of the beholder, isn't it? But, in my experience (for one-off corporate shows or concerts), rental lifts come with something even more important: a skilled, trained, experienced operator!



No, required safety systems are not in the eye of the beholder. If there is one time to be pedantic, it's when dealing with safety. While I may be new around here and Derek clearly has a long history on this site, that attitude towards critical safety seems very counter to the safety culture that is often espoused on this site. And while a skilled, trained, and experienced operator is a vital link in the automation chain, that cannot be the only link. 

For example, using the lift shown in the second video in the manner described by the OP introduces at least one shear edge between the lift and stage. Let's assume an upward speed of 6" per second on the lift (not a fast move at all). As the lift is traveling upward, our bellowing diva manages to wedge her foot between the underside of the stage and the lift. Let's assume a best case reaction time of 250 milliseconds on the part of our highly skilled operator (assuming he's diligently covering the estop button), and let us also assume that the control system brings the lift to a halt in 250 milliseconds (which is rather quick for an OFF1 or OFF3 stop, but may be attainable given a small lift). That means our lift will still travel for half a second (around 2 inches) through whatever soft, squishy tissue that is in the way.

Instead, imagine we had a properly sized astragal/safe-edge/tape-switch installed and commissioned. In this case, the errant foot would strike the safe edge and automatically trigger a stop of the lift. The lift would come to a stop before the foot reached something hard (e.g. it's still in the compressible part of the safe edge). In fact, when I commission stage lifts, part of the process is simulating this very situation. A carrot is used in place of an appendage. We run the lift at full speed into the safe edge. The lift has to stop without breaking the carrot. 

Finally, there are other, low-tech means of alleviating safety concerns. You could hang a sheet of plywood between the lift and stage creating a wall that makes it impossible to trap anything under a shear edge. But however they are addressed, safety issues MUST be addressed. I watched a man lose a finger because very small, innocent looking automated traps were run without safety systems in place despite my many protests.

I apologize to the OP for the rampant thread drift. If you do decide to use a rental solution, I would strongly encourage you to ask the rental company about safety systems. Do your own risk assessment and ask them for theirs. In the end, no stage trick is worth hurting someone.


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## derekleffew (Nov 30, 2011)

quesauce said:


> No, *required* safety systems are not in the eye of the beholder. While I may be new around here and Derek clearly has a long history on this site, that attitude towards critical safety seems very counter to the safety culture that is often espoused on this site. And while a skilled, trained, and experienced operator is a vital link in the automation chain, that cannot be the only link. ...


I wasn't trying to minimize the importance of inherent safety mechanisms, merely attempting to illustrate that there are no (to my knowledge) written universal safety standards which must be obeyed. [-]ESTA[/-] PLASA's Technical Standards Program hasn't yet addressed the topic of scenic performer elevators. Or anyone else that I know of, other than the shops that build such devices. (OSHA _may_ have semi-relevant guidelines, many of which are probably impractical/unworkable for the stage.)

That which Shop A considers mandatory may well be considered an optional feature by Shop B, and totally ridiculous to Shop C. Deadman switches, E-Stops, load-sensing, pinch protection, retractable railings, etc. are all valid and (likely) desirable, but in this application, also very situationally dependent.


quesauce said:


> If you do decide to use a rental solution, I would strongly encourage you to ask the rental company about safety systems. Do your own risk assessment and ask them for theirs. In the end, no stage trick is worth hurting someone.


Absolutely agree, 1000% percent.


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## quesauce (Nov 30, 2011)

derekleffew said:


> I wasn't trying to minimize the importance of inherent safety mechanisms, merely attempting to illustrate that there are no (to my knowledge) written universal safety standards which must be obeyed. [-]ESTA[/-] PLASA's Technical Standards Program hasn't yet addressed the topic of scenic performer elevators. Or anyone else that I know of, other than the shops that build such devices. (OSHA _may_ have semi-relevant guidelines, many of which are probably impractical/unworkable for the stage.)



Sadly, safety in entertainment machinery is one area the US is severely lagging Europe. The Europeans have developed a lot of regulations/recommendations that deal with stage machinery. For instance, the Germans developed BGV D8, D8+, and C1 recommendations for chain hoists several years ago. Folks in the US are just now starting to show interest in these standards. I do hope the TSP folks get around to machinery soon. While the finer points of any standard can be debated, I think that having a solid baseline that everyone adheres to is a reasonable approach. 

The good news is that a lot of companies and consultants in the US are self-regulating and requiring certain features through technical specifications for new equipment. Similarly, if clients start demanding safety in specs or rental agreements, the rental companies will notice. If anyone is interested, I can see if I can dig up some recent specs for lifts and post some relevant points. I can also try and find some of the European recommendations for lifts.


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## craftythecoyote87 (Nov 30, 2011)

Our mid-season musicals are where I'm expected to make magic happen out of almost nothing while still comparing to our normal expected production value. I agree a trick like a lift isn't worth the risk to home-depot our way through it. And looks like the cost to rent would be far too expensive.

I met with the director today and compromised to lose the lift and add aerial silk acrobatics instead. With a local pro aerial acrobatic company on board and the in-house rigging knowledge to do so safely, it's a very budget friendly compromise. 

Thanks for the useful info and resources, and I don't mind the ranting. I run on a post-college "my brain is a sponge and you are all open taps" philosophy, knowledge is power and all that.


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## Jackalope (Nov 30, 2011)

quesauce said:


> If anyone is interested, I can see if I can dig up some recent specs for lifts and post some relevant points. I can also try and find some of the European recommendations for lifts.


 
I would be interested in seeing that.


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