# Location of the Control Booth



## Paul Hannah (Jan 8, 2018)

I am designing a new theatre in an old building and I am thinking about control booth location.
If I go the traditional route and put it behind the audience, it will be small, low ceilinged and impossible to access for the less well abled users. If I put it backstage with two redundant video and audio feeds, it will be large, adaptable, comfortable and accessible. It will also give me 16 more seats in a 100 seat theatre. 

What do you think? Is locating it backstage a brave move too far?


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## SteveB (Jan 8, 2018)

Is audio live mixing ?, or just playback of sound cues in a play ?, or something in between. Sound almost always wants to be where they can hear what the audience hears. 

Is lighting getting modified during the show ?, then you likely want the operator to see what’s happening and not on a monitor. If you have an LD sit in the theater and cue a show, then the operator is just pushing GO, then you can get away with a hidden booth location. 

If I had a choice, audio in the house, lighting wherever, best of bad choices.


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## josh88 (Jan 8, 2018)

Can you put a camera out in the house to see the audience view of the stage or just put the audio position out there? Stage Managing positions backstage are pretty common and I've certainly run lights backstage before.


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## EdSavoie (Jan 8, 2018)

answer to the thread name: Why on the internet of course!

In all seriousness though, I'm not a fan of putting the control booth backstage.

For Lighting, it means hauling out the desk into the audience every time you want to really change anything, and sound backstage sounds a lot different than sound in the house.

Auxiliary boards backstage are brilliant though!

During our H.S musical last year, we had a tech backstage controlling some pre cued intelligent effects, (no, the 1993 board could not control this.) as well as monitoring actor's microphone packs / status. It worked wonders for reception, as well as clearing up comms from battery level chatter.


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## Paul Hannah (Jan 9, 2018)

SteveB said:


> Is audio live mixing ?, or just playback of sound cues in a play ?, or something in between. Sound almost always wants to be where they can hear what the audience hears.
> 
> Is lighting getting modified during the show ?, then you likely want the operator to see what’s happening and not on a monitor. If you have an LD sit in the theater and cue a show, then the operator is just pushing GO, then you can get away with a hidden booth location.
> 
> If I had a choice, audio in the house, lighting wherever, best of bad choices.



Sound will exclusively be SFX like phones ringing and cars arriving, that sort of thing. Lighting would be a plotted extensively with no unplanned modifications.


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## Paul Hannah (Jan 9, 2018)

josh88 said:


> Can you put a camera out in the house to see the audience view of the stage or just put the audio position out there? Stage Managing positions backstage are pretty common and I've certainly run lights backstage before.


I was thinking of two cameras in case of failure, and mikes to listen for audio cues. Sound wouldn't be mixed as the play runs, any music would be pre recorded and the only audio input would be the playing of SFX.


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## JChenault (Jan 9, 2018)

Based on the 'just SFX and pre canned light cues" I would say that a backstage booth would be reasonable but not ideal. 
(And I don't understand the need to give up 16 seats AND to have it small and cramped if behind the audience) 

The real issue I would strongly suspect, is that at some point you will have to have a speaker with a mike, or do a small musical with wireless mikes so that in those cases you will need to find a way to put an auxiliary mix position in the house. Same thing for lighting. IE I can just about guarantee that at some point in the 30 year life of this renovation someone will have to busk a show.

If it were me, I would consider putting your 'permanent' booth backstage - but pull support in terms of cable, etc to a planned aux location in the back row of the theatre. And plan a way to take out some seats in the back row and put the sound / lights there when needed.

Just my 2 cents. Worth exactly what you paid for it.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Jan 9, 2018)

I think if you don't make a plan for an foh control area, you'll find someone making one up. 

One I'm working on now in same size - just three seats. It can move to wheelchair spaces as well. (Ignore the fuzzy lines - that's architects pdf under my cad)


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## RickR (Jan 9, 2018)

+1 house alternative 
I was thinking of a solid tech rehearsal position so all that pre-programming can be done properly. 

These days a fully programed show can be done with a hand held remote. So 2 seats if needed, until all h!! breaks loose.


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## Paul Hannah (Jan 9, 2018)

JChenault said:


> Based on the 'just SFX and pre canned light cues" I would say that a backstage booth would be reasonable but not ideal.
> (And I don't understand the need to give up 16 seats AND to have it small and cramped if behind the audience)
> 
> The real issue I would strongly suspect, is that at some point you will have to have a speaker with a mike, or do a small musical with wireless mikes so that in those cases you will need to find a way to put an auxiliary mix position in the house. Same thing for lighting. IE I can just about guarantee that at some point in the 30 year life of this renovation someone will have to busk a show.
> ...


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## Paul Hannah (Jan 9, 2018)

Thanks. That sounds like a plan.


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## Paul Hannah (Jan 9, 2018)

josh88 said:


> Can you put a camera out in the house to see the audience view of the stage or just put the audio position out there? Stage Managing positions backstage are pretty common and I've certainly run lights backstage before.



Thanks for that 
I think I'll put a couple of cameras on redundant systems to fail safe things.


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## Paul Hannah (Jan 9, 2018)

RickR said:


> +1 house alternative
> I was thinking of a solid tech rehearsal position so all that pre-programming can be done properly.
> 
> These days a fully programed show can be done with a hand held remote. So 2 seats if needed, until all h!! breaks loose.




Yeah. I think I can position a rehearsal light/sound board in the foyer or even the in the Box office with a drop down wall section so the op can see and hear the stage directly.


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## Paul Hannah (Jan 9, 2018)

Thanks everyone, you have all given me ideas and important things to mull over. 
This will be a long process so, I expect I will be back asking again.
:-D


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## RickR (Jan 9, 2018)

Paul Hannah said:


> Yeah. I think I can position a rehearsal light/sound board in the foyer or even the in the Box office with a drop down wall section so the op can see and hear the stage directly.



That would be great for LX but not good for any sound level setting or mixing. The usual solution is a custom table over a row of seats with connections in a floor pocket under the seats. Using any rear/middle wheelchair spots (or some removable seats) would let you bring in normal table and chairs.


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## mikefellh (Jan 10, 2018)

Back when I was in school the lighting board (which was 8feet tall and the dimmers were as long as my wrist to elbow) was stage left so we could see the entire stage except when the main curtain was closed, and the audio/projection was BOH. The director could be anywhere with a headset giving cues.

The only thing was when it came to re-aiming lights some had to stay by the lighting board and listen to what the person aiming the lights wanted on.

Now the setup I use today is mostly duplicated BOH and FOH via Cat6 cables and extenders, VGA & HDMI extenders for computer monitors, USB extender for keyboard and mouse, audio extender to a second mixer, etc.


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## mikefellh (Jan 11, 2018)

mikefellh said:


> Back when I was in school the lighting board (which was 8feet tall and the dimmers were as long as my wrist to elbow) was stage left so we could see the entire stage...



If you want to see the type of setup I'm referring to check out post #200 in the "Booth Pictures" thread (I had to refresh the link to get to the actual post in the thread):
https://www.controlbooth.com/threads/booth-pictures.19170/page-10#post-375747


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## Jim allen (Jan 17, 2018)

Paul Hannah said:


> Yeah. I think I can position a rehearsal light/sound board in the foyer or even the in the Box office with a drop down wall section so the op can see and hear the stage directly.


the op may be able to see the show, but the op won't "hear" the show in a room through a window. The biggest problem with sound is hearing what the audience hears and that can't happen if the operator is in a booth.


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## gafftaper (Jan 17, 2018)

I also want to point out that just as it's impossible to properly mix audio in a closet. You can run lights via a camera from another room, but you can't design that way cameras are not the same as eyes. My guess is if you put the booth backstage it'll be great for a the first show but people will change their minds, want to experiment and you'll find that 5 years from now they have figured out some crazy way to put the booth where it should be.

Theater techs are not robots. They are creative people who work in the moment with the show, and feel the show from the audience's point of view. Putting the real people backstage drastically limits their abilities and makes the show feel mechanical and canned.


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## Jim allen (Jan 17, 2018)

Paul Hannah said:


> I am designing a new theatre in an old building and I am thinking about control booth location.
> If I go the traditional route and put it behind the audience, it will be small, low ceilinged and impossible to access for the less well abled users. If I put it backstage with two redundant video and audio feeds, it will be large, adaptable, comfortable and accessible. It will also give me 16 more seats in a 100 seat theatre.
> 
> What do you think? Is locating it backstage a brave move too far?


another way to get around the issue is to go to wireless or either-net control Qlab will fire audio, video and lighting from anywhere, so your boards can be backstage, but you ops are FOH sitting in a chair with an iPad. An Ipad will run ETC Eos boards or Nomad wirelessly. You don't even have to have a board - you can run just with Nomad on a laptop with a Gadget II


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## Aaron Becker (Jan 17, 2018)

Jim allen said:


> another way to get around the issue is to go to wireless or either-net control Qlab will fire audio, video and lighting from anywhere, so your boards can be backstage, but you ops are FOH sitting in a chair with an iPad. An Ipad will run ETC Eos boards or Nomad wirelessly. You don't even have to have a board - you can run just with Nomad on a laptop with a Gadget II



I vote for wires. Even if they're temporary. A 20 dollar cable is almost as good as the world's most expensive wireless system.


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## Paul Hannah (Jan 17, 2018)

Jim allen said:


> the op may be able to see the show, but the op won't "hear" the show in a room through a window. The biggest problem with sound is hearing what the audience hears and that can't happen if the operator is in a booth.


 If I go this route I will remove a section of wall between the foyer and the house - make it like a stage flat. For the OP it will be like s/he is sitting in a seat behind the back row.


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## Paul Hannah (Jan 17, 2018)

Aaron Becker said:


> I vote for wires. Even if they're temporary. A 20 dollar cable is almost as good as the world's most expensive wireless system.


Yeah, the building is accessible underneath, so I can run wires from anywhere to anywhere and as you say Cat5 is cheap.


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## gafftaper (Jan 17, 2018)

Jim allen said:


> another way to get around the issue is to go to wireless or either-net control Qlab will fire audio, video and lighting from anywhere, so your boards can be backstage, but you ops are FOH sitting in a chair with an iPad. An Ipad will run ETC Eos boards or Nomad wirelessly. You don't even have to have a board - you can run just with Nomad on a laptop with a Gadget II



Yeah you "COULD" do it that way, but it will slow down the technicians and limit what they can do. Regardless of what the promotional materials say, it's not the same as having the full lighting or sound console in front of you. It can be done, but once again I bet it's less than 5 years before someone starts cursing the theater designer and figures out a way to put the console in the house. 

Yes there are times that it's the only option, but it's very undesirable and someone will find a way to make it work, so it's much better to plan for that option now.


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## mikefellh (Jan 17, 2018)

gafftaper said:


> I also want to point out that just as it's impossible to properly mix audio in a closet. You can run lights via a camera from another room, but you can't design that way cameras are not the same as eyes. My guess is if you put the booth backstage it'll be great for a the first show but people will change their minds, want to experiment and you'll find that 5 years from now they have figured out some crazy way to put the booth where it should be.



My setup is an open booth over the audience (see attachment), and while we have a separate amp in the booth that is set for the same volume level as the auditorium speakers, it makes a difference depending on how many people are in the audience soaking up the sound, so many times we have to lean over the booth to hear what the audience is hearing.


gafftaper said:


> Theater techs are not robots. They are creative people who work in the moment with the show, and feel the show from the audience's point of view. Putting the real people backstage drastically limits their abilities and makes the show feel mechanical and canned.



Especially if they are not trained pros...if it's a school/community auditorium where there is a lot of turnover of volunteers year to year, they may not feel comfortable or be able to judge without seeing/hearing for themselves!

p.s. Regarding the attachment, it's not always so full of projectors, and certainly not slide projectors anymore...but the digital projector makes enough noise that it's best to lean over the edge to hear what the audience is hearing.


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## EkkoJohnny (Jan 18, 2018)

One thing to consider, Paul, is nothing will ever replace the human eye, the human response, the human connection to a show or live band. Tech kicks ass, and the above posts are incredibly wise, but I didn't read much about the crap-happens factor, an unforgiving constant in live A/V production. You can have the best software available, but it will never replace the human connection between a board and the stage. If you have options, you're a lucky man, and you wouldn't be the first to have a broom closet for a booth. 

Speaking from an older guy’s perspective, we didn’t have ‘all that stuff’ back then, referring to video screens and go-button, programmed lights, and as it moved in - and as fricking awesome as it was - we found ourselves facing every direction but the stage. No kidding sometimes the street. As younger guys came into the field, they brought incredible energy, but the human connection began to dwindle and hiccups in shows shot through the roof, not because techs didn’t care, but because it became the norm to accept the limits of software. 

Is it cheaper to build a catwalk in the ceiling? Is there a hollow pillar towards the back? Any space in the left or right corner? I’ve designed many a house and always found a way to keep tech in the room. Are 16 more seats worth the cost of a killer show?

We love A/V or we wouldn’t do it, and I don’t think I know any grunts who run A/V for the glamor, though some have lifestyles I’d give my left nut for, but - the conditions are what they are. You make it work, and you focus on providing a mother-bleeping killer show. The best shows, including those with high-end booths, happen when your tech has the human connection. Sometimes that means an unorthodox booth location. As long as your tech is on board with your vision, your crew will collectively jump through hoops to make it work. 

So there's my old-ass reply. 
BIG kudos for what you’re doing. (I'm kinda jealous)


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## BillConnerFASTC (Jan 18, 2018)

This is all interesting. I was meeting with a client tonight - about 20 members of a comunity theatre spenfing $1m+ on a 120 seat thheatre, and this was a topic. I shared with them many thoughts from this and other threads. 

(FWIW added a room over concession/tickets/coats/lobby storage for control. Undecided on how much open and how much behind glass - no live sound mix ever considered - but this was thread was useful so thanks to all who contributed!)


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## Ben Stiegler (Mar 11, 2018)

I’ve mixed some pretty hairy shows and festivals on wireless with Mackie Dl32R or it’s cousins ... usually have 2 or 3 iPads FOH, plus sfx playback pc and 1 more laptop for wireless mic remote mgmt. works nicely indoors with most any WAP .. when you get to larger events or outdoors where thousands of people have WiFi enabled on their phones by default, it can become problematic. Sometimes the easy solution is to run 1 Ethernet cable to the event foh position, and have the WAP right next to the iPads and laptops. = skinny and inexpensive snake.


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## pbansen (Mar 11, 2018)

Aaron Becker said:


> A 20 dollar cable is almost as good as the world's most expensive wireless system.



I think you have that backwards!


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## FMEng (Mar 16, 2018)

Paul Hannah said:


> Yeah. I think I can position a rehearsal light/sound board in the foyer or even the in the Box office with a drop down wall section so the op can see and hear the stage directly.



Listening and mixing in a separate room from the audience is seldom good. An aperture, such as a window colors what you hear considerably, and the acoustics of small rooms are usually horrible. I've done it in such places and survived, but it wasn't good. If you don't believe me, go to any booth with a small, open window. Play some music through the system, and listen while sticking your head in and out the window.

Lighting in a small booth works fine as long as long as you can see the stage adequately.

At the very least, plan for the FOH booth and put the conduits in so you can easily change it when the experiment fails.


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## mikefellh (Mar 17, 2018)

FMEng said:


> Listening and mixing in a separate room from the audience is seldom good. An aperture, such as a window colors what you hear considerably, and the acoustics of small rooms are usually horrible. I've done it in such places and survived, but it wasn't good. If you don't believe me, go to any booth with a small, open window. Play some music through the system, and listen while sticking your head in and out the window.



Not just a small window...our booth has a 15 feet x 3 feet opening, and even though I have small speakers that are set for the same volume level as the auditorium speakers, there are times that we have to lean over the edge of the opening so we hear exactly what the audience hears.


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## Jay Ashworth (Mar 17, 2018)

Reminder: if you try to use video there, it will need to be NTSC analog.

HD/digital monitors will have at least 1 and sometimes as much as 3 or 4 frames of delay inside the monitor, and that 16-64ms will kill you.


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## EdSavoie (Mar 17, 2018)

Most monitors I've seen that aren't cheap crap these days are below 8ms if I'm not mistaken, with 1ms being not terribly expensive.

Additionally, at 60Hz, there's an inherent 16ms delay between frames.

Can't really comment on the camera though, I've not really any knowledge on the processing delays caused by that...


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## ruinexplorer (Mar 18, 2018)

EdSavoie said:


> Most monitors I've seen that aren't cheap crap these days are below 8ms if I'm not mistaken, with 1ms being not terribly expensive.
> 
> Additionally, at 60Hz, there's an inherent 16ms delay between frames.
> 
> Can't really comment on the camera though, I've not really any knowledge on the processing delays caused by that...



Latency is an additive issue. Each component will add some processing of the signal and increase the total time to show the image. Manufacturers can legally say that something has "no latency" as long as it adds no more that 10ms. Make sure to do your homework and let the components do as little thinking as possible.


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## Jay Ashworth (Mar 23, 2018)

To be clear about it: Analog monitors sync the scanning beam to the incoming analog signal, and hence have effectively no latency (microseconds, maybe).

LCD/LED monitors *paint the panel in progressive mode*, a frame at a time, so they're guaranteed to be at least one frame late even with a progressive signal, and probably a minimum of 2 frames late with an interlaced signal -- they have to assemble an entire frame in buffer, before they can clock it out to the panel for display. Depending on the processor speed, and how that clock-out is done, add maybe another frame of buffering -- nobody ever told those design engineers that frame-latency was a critical design parameter.


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## Buttmonkey (Oct 29, 2019)

Paul Hannah said:


> I am designing a new theatre in an old building and I am thinking about control booth location.
> If I go the traditional route and put it behind the audience, it will be small, low ceilinged and impossible to access for the less well abled users. If I put it backstage with two redundant video and audio feeds, it will be large, adaptable, comfortable and accessible. It will also give me 16 more seats in a 100 seat theatre.
> 
> What do you think? Is locating it backstage a brave move too far?


Ik I'm just a buttmonkey, but trying to do lighting and sound from backstage could be a disaster, cameras have a delay to them, audio sounds backstage sound way different than in the house. Your sound engineer needs to be where your audience is to give the best sound. Same goes for lighting unless it's super simple stuff.


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## Ben Stiegler (Oct 29, 2019)

mikefellh said:


> My setup is an open booth over the audience (see attachment), and while we have a separate amp in the booth that is set for the same volume level as the auditorium speakers, it makes a difference depending on how many people are in the audience soaking up the sound, so many times we have to lean over the booth to hear what the audience is hearing.
> 
> 
> Especially if they are not trained pros...if it's a school/community auditorium where there is a lot of turnover of volunteers year to year, they may not feel comfortable or be able to judge without seeing/hearing for themselves!
> ...




Have you thought about making a projector blimp, with baffled air ducts?


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## Ben Stiegler (Oct 29, 2019)

Also wondering why it costs 16 seats? If all you need are your control surfaces and input devices at hand, could you do it in 6 or 8 seats? Is there a follow spot eating up space? How many humans do you need in the booth?


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## BillConnerFASTC (Oct 29, 2019)

B-way was 21 seats for sound - 3 rows, 7 seats. 16 is probably 2 rows at 8 seats or 6 X 13 feet.

If you can split lights and sound - - depending on how designed and cued the lighting is versus the busking - you might put lights backstage and sound in less space in house. I guess I would also wonder if in 100 seats you are reinforcing or just playing effects. (Return to discussion on performers today can't project for crap)

It was all back stage for years on B'way so be done.


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## Ben Stiegler (Oct 29, 2019)

Even last year, I mixed a congressional town hall meeting with John Dean (Nixon's white house counsel) from a cursed backstage location because that's where some genius decided the high school mixing console should be. But geez - mixing blind, and half-deaf behind the traveler curtain. No headphones available to listen for edge of feedback. And yes, piano (light) boards backstage. But ... less was expected of us back then. Even if you have to knock out a bathroom stall or something, please make yourself a booth space, and equip for your A1 to be able to mix via tablet from true FOH when needed - like when you rent out to a cabaret nite fundraiser show, for example.


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## Buttmonkey (Oct 29, 2019)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> B-way was 21 seats for sound - 3 rows, 7 seats. 16 is probably 2 rows at 8 seats or 6 X 13 feet.
> 
> If you can split lights and sound - - depending on how designed and cued the lighting is versus the busking - you might put lights backstage and sound in less space in house. I guess I would also wonder if in 100 seats you are reinforcing or just playing effects. (Return to discussion on performers today can't project for crap)
> 
> It was all back stage for years on B'way so be done.


I disagree with all of this, the tech booth should always be front of house, the lighting director and sound engineer have to be where the audience is to give them the best experience possible.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Oct 29, 2019)

Board op or lighting director? Big difference. And you can disagree, but lighting and some sound was run from backstage - simple fact. And the stage manager was back stage - I think the most important person to be front of house. And 3 rows 7 seats was the basic FOH sound position "cost". 

Of course it's better if all have good view from front of house - but simply not always possible.


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## Buttmonkey (Oct 29, 2019)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> Board op or lighting director? Big difference. And you can disagree, but lighting and some sound was run from backstage - simple fact. And the stage manager was back stage - I think the most important person to be front of house. And 3 rows 7 seats was the basic FOH sound position "cost".
> 
> Of course it's better if all have good view from front of house - but simply not always possible.


I dont work in a big theater, I'm a stagehand but I can program a board and do the hard patch. So our lighting director advances the show's plans them, get the lights and board ready and them uses them show night. Is my technical director doing multiple jobs?


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## Aaron Becker (Oct 30, 2019)

Buttmonkey said:


> I dont work in a big theater [...] Is my technical director doing multiple jobs?



Almost certainly... yes...


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## What Rigger? (Nov 1, 2019)

Buttmonkey said:


> I disagree with all of this, the tech booth should always be front of house, the lighting director and sound engineer have to be where the audience is to give them the best experience possible.


You're gonna be in for a lot of surprises someday, guy.


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## TimMc (Nov 2, 2019)

Buttmonkey said:


> I disagree with all of this, the tech booth should always be front of house, the lighting director and sound engineer have to be where the audience is to give them the best experience possible.


That's what the "tech tables" are for during rehearsals - the designers, the programmers, the audio operators - are in the house. The director decides when he/she/they are satisfied with something, it's recorded or programmed or set in stone so that during performance the operator does not *need* to be in the middle of the house.

As an audio guy, I vastly prefer to operate from somewhere in the coverage of the main PA system because there are too many variables (actors) involved for things to remain the same from performance to performance, let alone from the 3 days of tech rehearsal we got. But in so many theaters the LX dept may well not have a clear view of the stage. Even scenic automation gets most of their cues from their operator and the SM watching CCTV (visible and IR) and carpenters on the deck to spot and call clears, holds and stops. Almost nothing relies solely on a FOH view as seen by the audience.


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## macsound (Nov 6, 2019)

I know tons has been written here...
Something to think about is also - flexibility. 
Many spaces have removable handicapped seats. Sell them as chairs unless a wheelchair needs the space so you slide them out. Audio console can also occupy this space.
But if you're doing a 1 mic no tech presentation, why lose the seats. That's a no-brainer for the iPad given to the meeting coordinator. 

Something I'm trying to convince a client recently is that a booth may contain other people than just techs. Sometimes you have a donor who got a tour and wants to watch the show from the booth. Maybe a kids theatre group who has to train backup moms to stage manage. 
You could build the booth in the back with a window that doesn't open, have cat5 connectors next to the accessible seating and a permanent rack backstage at the tech table. Then you have 3 options and whichever one isn't being used can be repurposed for other show relevant uses.


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