# Blacklight Efffects



## ship (Dec 18, 2007)

I was doing a search tonight for one of our customers that while he knows he won't get much actual UV-A output out of a single cell cyc light, he was curious about what gel would be best to simulate at least black light.

Been a discussion over the years on this, stagecraft, lighting network and pro-sound forums/groups. Unfortunately in doing a search on each tonight, stagecraft search is as normal down, the other two didn't result in what I searched for and this forum resulted in a few but I think the origional post(s) discussions on it are missing or gone since the upgrade. Anyone find the origional link where there was lots of discussion and posts?

Otherwise, the discussion should be opened up again on one's favorate gel to simulate black light.

From this forum I found the following colors: Gam 905, doubled up Rosco Lux 85, Rosco 59, Lee 180, Lee 343, and Congo Blue... which ever brand / number that is.

By extension based upon published gel conversion charts and notes we get the following: (Remember this is based off gel conversion charts and some conversions listed will be way off or brilliant.)

RoscoLux:
Rx017; Rx317; Rx018; Rx357; Rx058; Rx059; Rx085; Rx383; Rx385
Rosco E-Color:
e017; e058; e108; e120; e147; e180; e195; e204; e343
RoscoLene:
811; 841; 843; 866
Lee:
017; HT085; 108; 120; 137; 147; 180; 181; 195; 204; 237; 343; 713; 716; 776
Gam:
343; 324;342; 343; 375; 855; 890; 905; 915; 925; 930; 940; 945; 950; 1543
Apollo:
3900; 4050; 4100; 3550; 3600; 3800; 7200; 7420; 7500
Olesen:
45
CineMold:
20
CineGel:
3106; 3407
CineColor:
645
GelaTran:
62


A further note:
For color mixing to take place, we need space. A low grid height or a short throw limits the amount of space in which color can interact. Either we ought to increase the throw of the instruments or limit the pallette of colors. The other side of this problem is too much distance. The more saturated the color, the more difficult it is to read over distance. For instance, Lux 85 (Deep Blue) either needs a lot of intensity, which will reduce the effective life of the filter, or a short throw in order to read its color. 

Besides the throw, we also have to consider the angle and position of our instruments. Blacklight and downlight do not blend well, except on the floor. These two positions often use heavier colors to highlight the set and actors, or to build mood subtly. Sidelight works well in modeling and for promoting contrasts of color. Frontlight is crucial in the mixture of color to create adequate visibility and good facial tone on the actors. Most often, the downstage area must provide visual clarity to the actors, while the light upstage establishes mood. A scene full of moonlight or a subtle transition to sunset is counterproductive if the color and/or visibility distracts from the action of the play. (Rosco Technotes #10)



A consideration about dimming verses using the wattage of lamp closest in wattage/output to the need:

Dimming: with dimming, incandescent lamps change their spectral distribution. The relative reduction in blue and green energy may affect the color produced by the filter. This means less in the UV-A range also - a lot less.

(more UV notes to follow perhaps at some time.)


----------



## Logos (Dec 19, 2007)

Lee 181 is called Congo Blue and is a simulation of UV. It will certainly pick up fluoro paint salthough it won't make them fluoresce.


----------



## DarSax (Dec 19, 2007)

Rosco makes a Congo blue as well, I'm sure of it, but my swatchbook's currently 8 hours away, so i can't tell you what number it is.

A side note though, a few years ago for my school's talent show (before I was LD), they rented a couple Wildfire blacklights to make some neon-colored spike tape and UV bodypaint glow. The throw from the blacklights was about...20,30ft from sidelight positions, and didn't do nearly enough to make the colors pop. So then we put all the ML's with CMY on as dark blue/purple as we could make them, and...wow. Looked great, both the paint and the spike tape went through phenomenally.


----------



## soundlight (Dec 19, 2007)

DarSax said:


> Rosco makes a Congo blue as well, I'm sure of it, but my swatchbook's currently 8 hours away, so i can't tell you what number it is.



R382
http://www.rosco.com/us/filters/roscolux.asp


----------



## lxhipster (Dec 23, 2007)

L181 or anything with the name "Indigo"


----------



## CynicWhisper (Apr 17, 2008)

Second on the wildfires. I've used these lights before and they have a _lovely_ effect. They do have a shortish throw distance, 20 or 30 feet, but I would expect that that would be true with any kind of blacklight or simulation of such.


----------



## Grog12 (Apr 17, 2008)

R382 4tw...Though I've got to jump on the wildfire bandwagon if you can get them


----------



## mnfreelancer (Apr 18, 2008)

In my old middle school theatre we used to have four fluorescent fixtures hanging just upstage of the first electric with blacklight tubes in them. We didn't make any attempt to dim them, they were just on / off, but the floro tubes did a good job of covering the stage. We weren't doing anything too advanced with them - just white shirts and gloves on dancers - but it worked pretty well for simple stuff.


----------



## Flyboy (Apr 18, 2008)

Hey, fancy that this would be a topic right now. I have a friend who is designing a dance piece, and she wants to use UV light and flouescent paint/makeup. The company I work for currently has two AMDJ Mega Bar UV50s available for rental, but I've never used them before. She needs to cover about a 20' x 30' area from a height of about 15'-18' in the air. Would two of these work well for her? Would a congo blue or other similar gel work to "punch up" the existing light? I've never tried UV effects on stage, so I'll stay tuned in to this thread. Thanks.


----------



## jazzmo (Nov 17, 2009)

Hi Everyone,
I need some advice re blacklighting a school gymnatorium(?) stage area. Our school has a Main Stage that is 40' wide and 25' deep, which is primarily used as an upstage/sets area. We also have a Thrust Stage that extends 25' into the FOH area which is at least 40' wide as well. The Director wants to use blacklighting for several scenes. 
I can build 10 blacklight footlight boxes to cover the front of the Thrust Stagebut this is time-consuming and bulky. Are there reasonably priced alternatives? Are blacklight cannons (ie 400W) or LED fixtures a better way to go? I have some money to spend, but I'm also saving for moving lights. (My console is just an ETC Express, so I know I'm limited for MLs)
Our school is in Ontario, Canada, so I need Canadian suppliers.
Thanks, Jim


----------



## shiben (Nov 17, 2009)

Check out wildfire fixtures, these are pretty much the industry standard. However, they will cost you your firstborn.


----------



## seanandkate (Nov 17, 2009)

Hey Jim. You can price out Wildfires (you don't want to go the fluorescent fixture route incidentally) at Christielites, Jack Frost, or email [email protected] for a price. I get great deals from Jason (Rose), but I'm not sure if he deals Wildfires. Feel free to PM me if you need more help.


----------



## derekleffew (Nov 17, 2009)

Some Altman UV fixtures are almost as good as Wildfire and may be more readily available. See http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/lighting/10021-blacklighting-stage.html.


----------



## sstolnack (Nov 18, 2009)

If you want to go really cheap, there is a gel, Lee 181, that is pretty close to blacklight. I used it for a scene in a student directed one act, and it worked pretty well. You may want to double gel it to make it darker, but make sure to punch holes in it or so something to prevent if from melting because it's so dark.


----------



## erosing (Nov 18, 2009)

sstolnack said:


> If you want to go really cheap, there is a gel, Lee 181, that is pretty close to blacklight. I used it for a scene in a student directed one act, and it worked pretty well. You may want to double gel it to make it darker, but make sure to punch holes in it or so something to prevent if from melting because it's so dark.



I agree on L181 I use it whenever I don't need a true black-light and it looks pretty good every time, especially if you are time/budget crunched. It certainly doesn't have the same pop, but it isn't really that far off. You probably want to test it on a smaller scale first so you can see if you really need black-lights though and so you get the idea of the effect.


----------



## Footer (Nov 18, 2009)

I know we tend to scoff at this brand... but...




Yes, its american DJ. However, for 200 bucks this thing puts out a pretty good deal of UV Light. I hung one FOH and filled a 40' wide stage without much issue. The only downside is the lamp takes about 3-4 minutes to heat up to full power, so you have to plan for that. For 200 bucks though, you can't beat it. Amazon is selling it for 199 right now.


----------



## BillESC (Nov 18, 2009)

A better alternative to the UV Cannon is Elations UV Wash. We do a dance recital every year and use just two for a 30 x 40' stage. Under $ 150.00 each and no warm up time.


----------



## shiben (Nov 18, 2009)

You know, for all the crap we give ADJ, they do have some applications. All my PAR 16s are ADJ, and they work great, just as good as the PAR 20s that I bought from a professional supplier at twice the cost and no real major differences. Course, I did retro-fit all mine to take MR-16 lamps and built a power distribution for them designed by a family member (dads a ee)...


----------



## gafftaper (Nov 18, 2009)

Wildfires are great if you have a Cirque budget but for most of us they are too expensive to even rent. 

I've got 6 Elation UV wash fixtures (the picture Bill posted above). They are excellent and a great price. They feature a 100 watt Compact Florescent UV Lamp. You can buy just the lamp... I think they cost about $25. So if you were really desperate and short on cash you could use those in another fixture. However you would miss out on the benefits of the fixture, which is well mirrored in order to reflect all the UV forward.


----------



## gafftapegreenia (Nov 18, 2009)

Discotheques love their blacklights. The DJ option is certainly a viable one.


----------



## JD (Nov 18, 2009)

The real question is what you are trying to achieve; 

The expensive blacklights do not let as much of the "purple" visible light escape, so if you really want reactive substances to pop, then that is the route. On the other hand, if you don't mind, or even want the visible purple, then the cheep units are just fine. As for the "canon" vs the "wash", it's the same as a spot vs a flood. If you need to punch from a distance, use the canon. if you want a real wide angle, use the wash. 

The expensive part of the expensive lights is rejecting anything visible. UV should not be seen unless it reacts. Of course, with the expensive units you get a much better build quality by nature. This is important if you use them on a regular basis. If you are only using them once, or intend to use them rarely, then buying a cheep unit is most likely the less expensive rout. You could purchase 10 to 15 canons or UV wash units for what one good Altman would cost.


----------



## jazzmo (Nov 18, 2009)

Thanks to all for the advice. I'm seeing the Director tonight at rehearsal, and I'll impart the info received. The Elation sounds pretty good, and I could make a good case for buying 3 or 4 for our Main and Thrust.
If anyone has other ideas, I'd be happy to check them out too.
Again, Thanks...... Jim


----------



## gafftaper (Nov 19, 2009)

The Elations do flood a TON so be prepared for that, buy an extra if in doubt, and get them as close to the target as possible.


----------



## avkid (Nov 19, 2009)

gafftaper said:


> The Elations do flood a TON so be prepared for that, buy an extra if in doubt, and get them as close to the target as possible.


Maybe you could use some black wrap on the black light.


----------



## Grog12 (Nov 23, 2009)

Use R382 congo blue with wash instruments in your current inventory. Works like a charm.


----------



## propmonkey (Dec 29, 2009)

I'm helping a friend set up a blacklight dance at her high school. The DJ they are hiring has some lights and everything but they want more blacklight around the dance floor. Since this will be in a cafeteria with overhead fluorescent lights I suggested they buy a roll or gel just to have some light over the dance floor, nothing fancy. At first I suggested Lee 181 (Congo Blue) but I remembered that when used with fluorescent light this will be blue, not purple/uv like. I want to stay towards Lee since they large rolls are a perfect fit for the lights.

What Lee gel can I put over fluorescent lights to give a blacklight look? I know this will not be perfect and it does not have to be since it is just a high school dance.


----------



## SHARYNF (Dec 30, 2009)

the problem with gels etc is that they cannot ADD UV light, so the only UV content you get will be what the light itself is actually generating.

GE makes a t12 48" uv lamp that you could put in standard fluorescent fixtures.

I have used all of the suggestions

The ADJ units are not bad, take a long time warming up, generate a LOT of heat they are 400 watts and HEAVY they have a large transformer in side the and also quite a bit of visible light (the more visible light the less dramatic the UV effect

The Elations UV Wash units work well, are cheap and don't have the power and heat problems.

The Wildfire units are great, very expensive but the difference in the UV output to Visible light is minimal so the UV effect really pops

The cheap UV bulbs that are sold in stores (incandescent) are totally useless for UV they are purple but that is about it

Putting Gel on standard lights, IMO does not really work, it make the place purple or dark blue, but has minimal UV effect

sharyn


----------



## DuckJordan (Dec 30, 2009)

propmonkey said:


> I'm helping a friend set up a blacklight dance at her high school. The DJ they are hiring has some lights and everything but they want more blacklight around the dance floor. Since this will be in a cafeteria with overhead fluorescent lights I suggested they buy a roll or gel just to have some light over the dance floor, nothing fancy. At first I suggested Lee 181 (Congo Blue) but I remembered that when used with fluorescent light this will be blue, not purple/uv like. I want to stay towards Lee since they large rolls are a perfect fit for the lights.
> 
> What Lee gel can I put over fluorescent lights to give a blacklight look? I know this will not be perfect and it does not have to be since it is just a high school dance.




if you wan't more black lights in a cafeteria go with the cheap little purple black light instruments putting gel the flourescent lights will just cost way too much and will only succeed in making the room purple. Unfortunately in my youth i was the smart guy to say we could put a bunch of those on a dimmer in our auditorium for a talent show we have about 20 of them now and the effect we had was about 5 turned on right away the rest continued to randomly turn on throughout the act... having said this in a non theater environment don't spend a ton of cash on a black light effect that could be spent or borrowed from cheep little flourescent starter boxes or bulbs. most people will walk in see the black light say cool then completely forget about it.


----------



## propmonkey (Dec 30, 2009)

Let's say I want the purple look...what color would you all recomend? I know I won't get a UV output but I just want a "close-enough-for-government-work" deal.


----------



## MNicolai (Dec 30, 2009)

propmonkey said:


> Let's say I want the purple look...what color would you all recomend? I know I won't get a UV output but I just want a "close-enough-for-government-work" deal.



Here's a pretty good thread discussing different gels that work well for UV output.


----------



## rochem (Dec 30, 2009)

So this brings up an interesting question I've been wondering about for quite some time. On more than one large touring show (Beauty and the Beast, Mamma Mia, and I think Wizard of Oz), the plots show a huge number of conventionals mounted FOH gelled in "L181+R382". I could never figure out what these were for, but now I wonder if they were used to make the set pop a little more. Would this be a strong possibility for what those units were doing?


----------



## NHStech (Dec 30, 2009)

I have used fluorescents hanging overhead about 20' on my stage. Using three fixtures, I got a pretty good wash of about 30' wide and 10' deep. I have not used the aforementioned gels or fixtures, so I have nothing to compare, but these looked very nice. Each bulb is about $17 at Amazon.


----------



## rochem (Dec 30, 2009)

NHStech said:


> I have used fluorescents hanging overhead about 20' on my stage. Using three fixtures, I got a pretty good wash of about 30' wide and 10' deep. I have not used the aforementioned gels or fixtures, so I have nothing to compare, but these looked very nice. Each bulb is about $17 at Amazon.



I work with a youth theatre director who always puts a blacklight scene (no stage lights at all, just the blacklights on in a full blackout with UV-reactive costumes) into every youth production she does. I've lit 9 shows with her that had full blacklight scenes, and I've gotten the best results by putting a row of those cheap blacklight tubes along the front of the stage. They do give out some amount of visible light however, and some people complain of headaches after staring at the flourescent tubes, so you need to cover them on the downstage side so the audience can't actually see the tubes. I've hung them from a pipe as toplight, but that generally doesn't work as well because the front of the actor isn't lit as strongly, which is basically what you're going for in a blacklight scene. Overhead does work well when used in conjunction with tubes on the front of the stage when you need to get blacklight further upstage.


----------



## NJLX (Dec 31, 2009)

Have you considered renting?
For our junior prom a couple years ago we rented 4 fixtures (altmans, i think), and they lit our gym quite nicely (a bit of overkill, but the redundancy paid off when the dj tripped a breaker...)


----------



## Catwalker (Nov 24, 2014)

First off, sorry if this topic really does belong in the Special Effects section.

Now, for the meat and potatoes. I have been looking for a way to create a sort of blacklight effect for Beauty and the Beast. I have used the lovely search function provided, and discovered that industry standard is the Wildfire. I know that it will cost an arm and a leg, even to rent, so I looked for alternatives. Some thread mentioned the Lee 181 gel. I looked into that, and on a site selling equipment tells me that the gel needs a fluorescent source to create said effect. Can someone help me find the best way to this effect, for a low-budget operation? We have a roughly 55' by 40' stage.


----------



## JD (Nov 24, 2014)

The cheapest way to come up with a lot of blacklight on a very low budget is a pile of those twisty blacklight CFLs they sell at home depot! Now, this is NOT something that is going to compete with a bunch of Wildfire units, and the amount of visible light can be a problem in some applications, but they are cheap enough to try a few and if you like them get more. 
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Feit-Ele...PESL15T-BLB-HD/100553168?N=5yc1vZbmatZ1z0u18v

About $5


----------



## robmerow (Nov 25, 2014)

Another option may be UV Led's which can be found rather inexpensive to rent. I've seen success with the UVLED Bar 16 or UV Megabars which around here are about $40 to rent per week versus $100 for the wildfire. 

They too won't be blindingly punchy, but if you were to get 8 or so it would certainly give you some basic, dimmable UV.

Do you happen to have 4' or 8' florescent worklights over the stage? A last-resort solution could be to just put blacklight tubes in those and flip them on and off as usual.


----------



## Theresa (Nov 25, 2014)

We've used 6 sets of 4' fluorescent work lights with black light bulbs, along the front of the stage floor and braced so they face upstage. They worked well with in 10' of the lights.


----------



## derekleffew (Nov 25, 2014)

Catwalker said:


> ... Some thread mentioned the Lee 181 gel. ...


Just in case the thread didn't mention it--this *does not* work, with any degree of success anyway. While L181 can simulate the _visible_ portion of black light, its the invisible that we want. Any filter can only *subtract* from a source's spectrum, it can not *add* what's not there in the first place. True UV is 380 nm and shorter. L181 peaks at 410 nm; an incandescent lamp produces 400-700 nm.


----------

