# Have you Experienced Snobbery Against Spectacle?



## JohnHuntington (Feb 6, 2019)

I'm working on several articles for a sabbatical this semester, developing some ideas I've had in my head for a long time about the impact of technology on live story telling, and, additionally, the way we're teaching students entering the field.

I have in my head that some theatre people harbor an inherent snobbery against non-theatre forms of live entertainment. To me, a wrestling show, concert, corporate event, brand activation, etc is all a part of the same show business that incorporates everything from the busking performer on the street corner to the opera star; all of these forms use live performance to tell a story. Some stories are told purely for the purposes of art; some are for commerce, some are something in between.

But I have encountered over the years an attitude, especially from some academic theatre people, that working in these related fields is akin to becoming a mechanic or a plumber (which in my opinion are important and honorable professions). In my own school we had a (fortunately now retired) theatre PhD from another department take one of our best students aside and tell her that she was wasting her time, and should find another area of study because she was heading to a life of "setting up PAR cans in parking lots". That student went on to be a Local 1 member and worked on Broadway. I've also had a number of professor colleagues at other schools tell me privately that they are very jealous of us being able to do a haunted house every year, because their theatre snob led faculty would never even consider a project that was just "spectacle".

Anyway, before writing about it, I want to make sure that my perception of the snobbery is still a thing and not some long-dead strawman in my head from long-ago theatre school experiences.

Does anyone have recent experiences where a teacher/mentor/public figure/colleague/etc exhibited snobbery about or derision for working in some non-theatre show field?


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## RonHebbard (Feb 6, 2019)

JohnHuntington said:


> I'm working on several articles for a sabbatical this semester, developing some ideas I've had in my head for a long time about the impact of technology on live story telling, and, additionally, the way we're teaching students entering the field.
> 
> I have in my head that some theatre people harbor an inherent snobbery against non-theatre forms of live entertainment. To me, a wrestling show, concert, corporate event, brand activation, etc is all a part of the same show business that incorporates everything from the busking performer on the street corner to the opera star; all of these forms use live performance to tell a story. Some stories are told purely for the purposes of art; some are for commerce, some are something in between.
> 
> ...


 *@JohnHuntington* _YES!_
Toodleoo! 
Ron Hebbard


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## JohnHuntington (Feb 6, 2019)

RonHebbard said:


> *@JohnHuntington* _YES!_



Care to elaborate?  
John


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## Van (Feb 6, 2019)

Yes, There is a snobbery against 'Spectacle' and, I feel, it's for good reason. Of the seven classic attributes of Theatre Aristotle listed Spectacle as the least important. It is now the Most important and prevalent in most forms of entertainment. Call it snobbery if you wish but anyone can make stuff blow up, it takes a master to bring us the mastery that is the little girl in the red coat. This doesn't mean I don't enjoy a decent action flick, or the grand spectacle of great stage show but I feel, as a society, we have lost an intellectual edge and an amount of maturity because of our constant drive to be amused rather than entertained.


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## sk8rsdad (Feb 6, 2019)

Not so much snobbery as you are looking for but there is a growing desire to resurrect the _little theatre_ movement, if only audiences would come along on the journey. Contemporary scripts these days call for a level of spectacle that is really pushing the limits of what community theatre can or should do.


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## JohnHuntington (Feb 6, 2019)

Van said:


> Yes, There is a snobbery against 'Spectacle' and, I feel, it's for good reason. ...



Thanks, this helps me clarify my thinking on this. I am most certainly passionate and opinionated about the kinds of art that I like, but I don't look down on others who like whatever kinds of art that they like. "One who tends to rebuff, avoid, or ignore those regarded as inferior" is the snobbery definition I find most relevant from Mirriam Webster. I guess that's what I've experienced that I react strongly against. 

Also I'm thinking specifically about traditional theatre (the focus of most educational programs) vs. other types of live entertainment and used the term "spectacle" as a catch all because I'm not sure of a better term.

I'd love to hear you elaborate a bit on your statement about (paraphrasing) amusement vs. entertainment. For a lot of theatre I used to do, the creators would take offense if their work was called "entertainment".

Finally I would attribute any loss of an "intellectual edge" to a wide variety of factors, with the rise of "amusement" being a symptom rather than a cause. 

Thanks!

John


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## MNicolai (Feb 6, 2019)

It's not just against spectacle. It's a general contempt for that which falls outside of the traditional art form of production design for theater. When I told my academic adviser in my BFA program that I wanted to get into systems design and theater consulting, he encouraged me to drop out and find a community tech school somewhere to study at. I had to switch to a different adviser who was more interested in related fields like design and installation.

The curriculum of that particular BFA program was centered on what ends up on stage, and not so much about how to implement designs. They spent a small fortune upgrading to Selador/Desire/Series II with a Gio and a secondary Ion. The lighting professor was not happy about losing the Obsession II and Express consoles and didn't bother to learn the new consoles or how to use the LED fixtures. Consequentially he never remotely attempted to teach students about programming workflow or designing with LED's or ML's. Not surprisingly, this is the same program that graduated a student who 3 years into an ATD position asked her boss "What is a DMX and where do we have one?"

I'm sure in the eyes of my first professor, I may have a healthy career, a reliable paycheck, and a 401k, but I didn't slave for my art and sacrifice like he did using the barest set of tools available and therefore my work is a disappointment to him in comparison to where other graduates of his have gone onto.

My university had multiple theaters, and one of them was in a segregated area of the building that was a roadhouse venue. It was a constant tug of war between the different sides of the building because the academic staff didn't care for their students making paychecks in the roadhouse venue, and the roadhouse venue was constantly disappointed by students who lacked basic color theory and the ability to driving a lighting or sound console because the academic program was focused on drafting, conceptual design, and construction, with little focus on technology or practical skills.

It's the fundamental difference between "theatre with an -re" and "theater."


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## gafftapegreenia (Feb 6, 2019)

Most people, who go to school for a “theatre education”, IF they remain in the field, will ultimately not make their living in ‘traditional’, I.E. regional or “straight” theatre. The sooner programs realize the diversity in employment opportunities, the better. Some get it better than others, and if one wishes to remain on that traditional theatre path, they pay for it, either in money or hard work and sacrifice, and often both.

And yes, I’m speaking from experience.


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## RonHebbard (Feb 6, 2019)

JohnHuntington said:


> Care to elaborate?
> John


 *@JohnHuntington* Where to begin without endlessly droning on and veering too far off topic. 
In our area we have universities teaching theatre; typically their graduates go on to become English and / or drama teachers in secondary schools, colleges or universities. I've yet to meet a graduate from any of the universities who knew anything about theatre from a technical perspective. I won't bore you with examples. We have colleges teaching theatre where the students interested in tech' are considered subservient minions and looked down upon as necessary evils to support the students studying performance; at least the tech' students in the colleges get hands on experience at real time problem solving and dealing with the hierarchy of the caste system. 
We have professional ballet and opera companies who appreciate technicians. We have amateur dance and opera companies who look down their noses with disdain. We have university graduates who purport to be "experts" in theatrical rigging and loading of structures who can (and do) quote chapter and verse when it comes to loading overhead beams without giving any thought at all to water, snow and ice loading already on the flat roof. If / when the roof's drains are clogged with leaves and the entire flat roof is supporting two feet of water all the way up to the surrounding parapet the supporting trusses are likely already over-loaded before you add your rigging points. In Hamilton, Ontario, at one point the 2183 seat soft-seater, the 17 K+ arena and the convention centre were all being managed by a division of city hall. At that point one civic manager summed it up best when he explained what sold best was a double bill of monster trucks and female mud wrestlers in the arena. You're definitely correct: The same sound systems, lighting systems, follow spots and crew crewed the shows and cashed their pay cheques. It's similar to the pseudo-snobbery in hospitals between RN's, RPN's and PSW's; although I've met two female RNP's (Registered Nurse Practicioner's) who were both at the top of their game and absolutely fabulous. Thanks for posting an interesting topic from an interesting point of view. 
Toodleoo! (From north of Donald's walls) 
Ron Hebbard


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## JohnHuntington (Feb 6, 2019)

MNicolai said:


> It's not just against spectacle. It's a general contempt for that which falls outside of the traditional art form of production design for theater. When I told my academic adviser in my BFA program that I wanted to get into systems design and theater consulting, he encouraged me to drop out and find a community tech school somewhere to study at. I had to switch to a different adviser who was more interested in related fields like design and installation.



Wow this exactly my perception and experience from the 80's. If you don't mind telling, when did you go to school?

John


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## MNicolai (Feb 6, 2019)

@JohnHuntington,
Milwaukee School of Engineering 2009-2011
University of Wisconsin - Whitewater, 2011-2014


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## JohnHuntington (Feb 6, 2019)

MNicolai said:


> @JohnHuntington,
> Milwaukee School of Engineering 2009-2011
> University of Wisconsin - Whitewater, 2011-2014



Wow, the more things change, .... the more things stay the same. 

I experienced this myself in the 80's and 90's and wrote my original "Rethinking Entertainment Technology Education" article (which is about technology but really inspired by this issue) in 2002. 

Thanks for sharing! It seems like things worked out OK for you though in the end so screw that original advisor 

John


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## MNicolai (Feb 6, 2019)

@JohnHuntington 
I would agree with that. I still get the itch to do production design and will likely take my own sabbatical in another few years to play more in the artistic sandbox than the engineering one. That said, 5 years out of college I have more retirement savings than any of college professors (ignoring those pesky student loans I still have to pay off...). That could come across as snobby in its own way, but the hard reality is that I can't pay my rent with IOU's, and I would like to be in a position financially where I have the latitude to take on as much or as little production work as I like -- instead of having to take on 80hrs a week just to pay off my car.

I would've liked to have received more business training in college. Fortunately through my internships I learned enough to be dangerous on how to write contracts, proposals, do client presentations, and such. That's been infinitely valuable. By the time I graduated I instilled in a lot of my classmates to push the academic staff toward engaging in those kinds of conversations about how they value their time and negotiate with clients. It seemed none of them felt confident about those subjects though to teach them to students. This leads back to my overarching beef with the arts that highly skilled individuals are expected to deliver the mountain to Mohammed for $15/hr or a flat fee of $4000 for the simple effort of 300 hrs of design work, no benefits, and if they're smart they're carrying their own liability insurance. "You're doing what you love so I don't know how you can ask me to pay you that much..."

Today I bill out at $125-205/hr. Obviously most of that goes to the company but it really irks me to think that it was expected of me at 16 years old in a professional roadhouse, making $12/hr, that I should work until 3am while standing on the railings of a one-man genie lift to reach fixtures because "that's how we do it just don't hurt yourself." Then having my time over 40 hours rolled into the following week so they could weasel around paying as much. Our industry has a problem exploiting our friends and ourselves because we don't put more emphasis on the business side and practical execution of our craft. The major problem being that most people feel don't feel they've "figured that out" enough to preach that gospel to others.

I usually tell students "Anyone who says you can't make money in theater has a very narrow idea of what theater lead you toward."

/end diatribe


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## derekleffew (Feb 6, 2019)

A different type of theatre snobbery, one that is hopefully obsolete by now.

Lighting Designer taking the USAA #829 exam in the early 1970s.
Adjudicator: What's this symbol on your light plot--I don't recognize it.
Designer: That's a PAR64 can. 1000 watt, medium flood lens.
A: Oh. You'd NEVER use that in the THEATRE would you?
D: I would, if I felt it was the right light for the right job.

She didn't say whether or not she passed, but I suspect she did, as she designed a show on Broadway in 1977.


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## Chase P. (Feb 8, 2019)

Let's remember that while opera is considered highbrow today, it was once entertainment for the common people as well. There's absolutely nothing wrong with spectacle, and frequently there's more money in it. 

Right out of school I spent several years doing tech for a theater that only produced new works. Some of them were great, but it was never going to make me as much money as doing uplights on columns in a hotel ballroom for a wedding or corporate party, and the tickets never sold as well as the theater down the street doing another G&S light opera.


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## What Rigger? (Feb 8, 2019)

There's nothing wrong with spectacle, but yeah, I've run into people who can't chill and enjoy a WWE show. To a slight degree, even wrestling is a display of some degree of humanity. Dwayne Johnson even said once "The Rock is just Dwayne at full volume."
What's more primal than seeing your favorite band and losing yourself for a couple hours? All your troubles fade away, and you're in that flow state where the only thing that matters is the sound and the people around you. Doesn't matter if it's Motley Crue in the 80's, Fugazi (headlining over Pearl Jam) in '92 or Gaga in Vegas now.

I do spectacle for a living, but even my jaded eyes can see there's some real moments in the middle of it all.


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## What Rigger? (Feb 8, 2019)

MNicolai said:


> Today I bill out at $125-205/hr. Obviously most of that goes to the company but it really irks me to think that it was expected of me at 16 years old in a professional roadhouse, making $12/hr, that I should work until 3am while standing on the railings of a one-man genie lift to reach fixtures because "that's how we do it just don't hurt yourself." Then having my time over 40 hours rolled into the following week so they could weasel around paying as much. Our industry has a problem exploiting our friends and ourselves because we don't put more emphasis on the business side and practical execution of our craft. The major problem being that most people feel don't feel they've "figured that out" enough to preach that gospel to others.



ALL of this!!!


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## Logos (Feb 8, 2019)

I have actually experienced snobbery about the fact that I love to design musicals and don't mind designing for amateurs. I made a name for myself lighting serious drama and Shakespeare but really enjoy doing musicals, because I can be playful as well as dramatic. I get the feeling that musicals are treated with a bit more respect in the US than here.


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## TimMc (Feb 8, 2019)

"Well damn, I'll take my flying pickup truck, and Jon Bon Jovi can pack up his video robots and we'll all go home, okay?" *channeling Carrie Underwood*

Or the tasteless but technically stunning 3D duet with a dead rapper. Or... or... or...

Yeah. I make a piece of my take on spectacle and unlike Janet Jackson, I don't have to show my chest. 

But John, you're absolutely right. There is a wide gulf between the commercial and academic/artiste castes. I remember when straight play theatre looked down on musicals; then musicals became the cash cow of Broadway. Still the red-headed step child, but that child has the bigger purse to show for the lack of social sophistication. 

When I speak theater with non-touring theatre people they look at me like I'm an evil barbarian with a wrench in my pocket (Thanks, Frank Zappa!) who couldn't possibly comprehend "The Theatre". Perhaps. I can only imagine what they think of actors... oh wait, is it time for the cattle call?  At any rate, I've learned that advocating sex or violence isn't for me, but lighting them and making them louder pays my bills.


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## edifi (Feb 13, 2019)

As a high school teacher, I find snobbery against tech to begin with little wanna-be stars who believe they are above helping paint or sew. I counter that by requiring that EVERYONE serve on a tech crew at some time. I allow two acting shows, and then require a tech show. I also require a certain number of hours for all cast and crew during a show to paint, sew, build, fold programs, etc. With some students it works, with others...they do two shows and never come back. Those who do participate always comment how much fun, and how much they learned by attending the work days.


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## urban79 (Feb 16, 2019)

edifi said:


> As a high school teacher, I find snobbery against tech to begin with little wanna-be stars who believe they are above helping paint or sew. I counter that by requiring that EVERYONE serve on a tech crew at some time. I allow two acting shows, and then require a tech show. I also require a certain number of hours for all cast and crew during a show to paint, sew, build, fold programs, etc. With some students it works, with others...they do two shows and never come back. Those who do participate always comment how much fun, and how much they learned by attending the work days.



The biggest thing I struggle with regarding this is to have enough stuff for the cast that does show up... At times there's lots of base painting to be done, but not everyone has the requisite skillset (or inclination) to become more advanced in it. I find I have a core group of both actors and techs who are very good - our lead scenic charge artists are also the leads in the musical - it's harder to deal with the 20 others that show up...


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## TimMc (Feb 16, 2019)

urban79 said:


> The biggest thing I struggle with regarding this is to have enough stuff for the cast that does show up... At times there's lots of base painting to be done, but not everyone has the requisite skillset (or inclination) to become more advanced in it. I find I have a core group of both actors and techs who are very good - our lead scenic charge artists are also the leads in the musical - it's harder to deal with the 20 others that show up...


 
In a school we aim for "education" of the students. IMNSHO the production of a play, musical or concert should represent the culmination of some level of advancement as well as participation. Its the difference between "we'll announce a show and learn along the way" and "we're gonna learn stuff and demonstrate that by putting on a show." As you point out not all students arrive with the same level of desire to participate or perhaps the technical or artistic chops. Balancing that is the art of teaching The Arts.

Back to John's question and thoughs - 

"*The Arts*," as to benefit the public, would not exist without commercial and/or social *patronage*. To pretend that either can exist in exclusion is a disservice to both. Visual arts, theater, dance, etc... are driven by creative forces that find support or not. Without support it's a matter of the Bernie Taupin lyric "Take me to the garrets where the artists have died". With support a vibrant and vital symbiosis can take place. When dealing with the snooty or snobby I think the question we should ask ourselves is "how can I have a conversation/relationship with this person that might benefit my artistic industry and community of creators and spectators?"


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## Footer (Feb 18, 2019)

I argued this point once in my BFA program. I wanted to go work at the road house on campus not attached to the theatre dept for a bus and truck that was coming in. Load in was during the day and I'd miss some shop time or something. I was told "you don't need to learn how to do that, our goal is to teach you so you don't have to do that kinda thing". When I pointed out that our program had produced 10+ full time working technicians and zero full designer in the last 5 years I was told that was no reflection on the program. Jump forward 2 years I skipped out on a day of class unapproved to go do an in/show/out for 20+ truck arena show. For those hours I missed the dept. TD decided to fail me for shop that semester... once again citing "you don't need to learn that stuff". 

Now I run a 2 venue road house producing 200-250 events a year full time, with state benefits, and easily make twice what the professors at my college make.... plus have more design work then I can handle on the side. 

We all can't be designers. Many "professional" designers I know also have a teaching gig in order to make ends meet. A lot of my freinds who did go grab their MFA are already back teaching.... some never even ventured out into the real world. Its one of the reasons that the way "college theatre" is produced happens. I still wish someone woulld have showed me Tait or something like that when I was 17 and followed that up with "want to do this? go to school for engineering".


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## JohnHuntington (Feb 18, 2019)

Footer said:


> I argued this point once in my BFA program. I wanted to go work at the road house on campus not attached to the theatre dept for a bus and truck that was coming in. Load in was during the day and I'd miss some shop time or something. I was told "you don't need to learn how to do that, our goal is to teach you so you don't have to do that kinda thing". When I pointed out that our program had produced 10+ full time working technicians and zero full designer in the last 5 years I was told that was no reflection on the program. Jump forward 2 years I skipped out on a day of class unapproved to go do an in/show/out for 20+ truck arena show. For those hours I missed the dept. TD decided to fail me for shop that semester... once again citing "you don't need to learn that stuff".



Wow, this is exactly what I was talking about. If you don't mind telling, what year was this?


Footer said:


> We all can't be designers. Many "professional" designers I know also have a teaching gig in order to make ends meet. A lot of my freinds who did go grab their MFA are already back teaching.... some never even ventured out into the real world. Its one of the reasons that the way "college theatre" is produced happens.



Hear, hear!

Thanks!

John


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## Marcus Petrella (Feb 20, 2019)

I've certainly encountered anti-spectacle snobbery, but had a very different college experience than many are describing here ('99-'03). My university had a design/production degree, and a road house on campus that was not part of the school of theatre, but was staffed by student staff who split all calls with the IATSE Local. Many of the student staff in the road house were design/production students. It probably helped that our TD was also a member of the Local also. 

We were taught that spectacle should always be motivated by the script, but there was no stigma about teaching us how to do the practical job of being a technician. At least nothing formal or even unified comming from the faculty.


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## JohnHuntington (Feb 22, 2019)

I collated all this into a blog entry
http://controlgeek.net/blog/2019/2/...echnically-minded-live-entertainment-students

John


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## TimMc (Feb 22, 2019)

Nicely done, John.


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## JohnD (Feb 22, 2019)

Nice blog post John. As a retort to some professors, Shakespeare was not primarily creating ART, he was creating entertainment for the masses. He knew he had to keep the groundlings happy...…..or they would throw stuff at the actors.


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## EdSavoie (Feb 22, 2019)

My old High school's crew is frequently moving equipment around the school and even outside during the warmer months, they are very well versed in making their venue wherever it may be, for whatever the event is.

It helps when the Head of the arts has a background in both Music and Theatre, and the school also has a sizable dance program. For the few who choose to pursue the techie life, it's fortunate they get that dynamic style of "Get the job done with whatever is available."

My college on the other hand traditionally held contempt towards events that weren't directly related to the theatre program. Luckily that's long since been fixed.


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## RonHebbard (Feb 22, 2019)

EdSavoie said:


> My old High school's crew is frequently moving equipment around the school and even outside during the warmer months, they are very well versed in making their venue wherever it may be, for whatever the event is.
> 
> It helps when the Head of the arts has a background in both Music and Theatre, and the school also has a sizable dance program. For the few who choose to pursue the techie life, it's fortunate they get that dynamic style of "Get the job done with whatever is available."
> 
> *My college on the other hand traditionally held contempt towards events that weren't directly related to the theatre program. Luckily that's long since been fixed*.


 *@EdSavoie* Would you mind expounding and elaborating upon how your college improved their attitudes*?* 
Toodleoo! 
Ron Hebbard


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## EdSavoie (Feb 23, 2019)

RonHebbard said:


> *@EdSavoie* Would you mind expounding and elaborating upon how your college improved their attitudes*?*
> Toodleoo!
> Ron Hebbard



Sorry for the late reply, been busy with a show and it slipped my mind.

My program was originally created for the sole purpose of serving the musical theatre program, so in the early years of the program, spending any money on our program that didn't aid musical theatre was considered out of the question. From what I've been recounted, this lead to the original program coordinator quitting because he couldn't take the program where he (rightly) felt it needed to go.

Years go by, the college gets involved with some venue rentals that either save them money by using us, or make money for the college, people making decisions change, and voila. Our program is now allowed to engage in arena style rigging, wrestling, automation, electronic controls and many other things, in addition to everything related to theatre.


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## gafftaper (Mar 10, 2019)

I'm really late coming to this discussion, but there's another aspect of this I've seen a few times. I would call this envy denied and hidden as snobbery. More than once I've heard friends in community theater rant about how the shows they do are pure art because they do it for the love of the show and not just for money. They then go on to rant about rant about Broadway shows, rock concerts, the local LORT theater, Cirque.. Anything with a big budget and a paid staff.


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## TimMc (Jun 25, 2019)

Ah, my chance to animate the Zombie.... From Mixerperson extraordinaire Robert Scovil (Rush, Matchbox 20, Tom Petty, Def Lepard, others).

https://splnetwork.com/show-versus-concert-07092013/
While not exclusive to theatre I think he touches on the push/pull between "art" and "performance" for the audience.


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## Jay Ashworth (Jun 29, 2019)

I ran into this a bit a few years back when I used the adjective "legit" to distinguish live-stage theater from the filmic kind, having been told that this was a traditional adjective... and the responses varied between not understanding what I meant at all, and thinking the term was deprecated *because* it displayed the kind of snobbery you're asking about here. For my part, I could see the connection, but didn't think that current live usage of it was intended to mark that snobbery.

I was led to believe there no longer *was* any live usage of it.


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## JohnHuntington (Jul 1, 2019)

Jay Ashworth said:


> I ran into this a bit a few years back when I used the adjective "legit" to distinguish live-stage theater from the filmic kind, having been told that this was a traditional adjective... and the responses varied between not understanding what I meant at all, and thinking the term was deprecated *because* it displayed the kind of snobbery you're asking about here. For my part, I could see the connection, but didn't think that current live usage of it was intended to mark that snobbery.
> I was led to believe there no longer *was* any live usage of it.



Well someone should tell Variety 
https://variety.com/v/legit/

Also, it's funny, I'm an anti snob snob, and I was never offended by the "legit" term. I guess I'm proud to like stuff that would be considered illegitimate 

John


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## Jay Ashworth (Jul 1, 2019)

Entirely possible I got it form Variety.

But when I used it (here, IIRC), and everyone freaked, I ankled.


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## chawalang (Jul 3, 2019)

In my experience what a lot of this "snobbery" comes down to is a generational circumstance with particular people. When I was an undergrad I went into college with the idea that I wanted to work in this industry. At the time I honestly didn't know what that really was yet but I knew it was where I wanted to be. As an undergrad I didn't experience the snobbery but did experience myself as an anomaly. My undergrad professors had not really experience a student who was going outside of the school and working for A/V companies, doing rock concert load ins and prepping shows in commercial shops. They came from a world where what you did was a regional theatre style job. They didn't think less of me for it but did not really know what to do with me. So they guided me the best tat they could and I honestly figured a lot of it out on my own. I experience a very different environment in grad school amongst faculty. I went to grad school with the idea that I was not going into regional theatre once I was done. I still believe that I was an anomaly because of that but my faculty in the TD program were supportive of it, even to the point where they were willing to work with me when I picked up part time work with a production company half way through grad school. The TD faculty were drastically different in age but they had an understanding that not everyone one is them. The only odd thing I think they experienced with me was the notion that as a TD or technical manager I was able to oversee other parts of a production that were not just scenic based. As I have experienced in the corporate world a lot of the times as a technical manager you are overseeing scenery, rigging, lighting, video, and audio in conjunction with the heads of those departments.

Where I observed the snobbery was in grad school with my colleagues in the design disciplines. The funny thing was that the design faculty was of a wide array of age groups as well. As a side note, I tend to think I planted the seeds of thought concerning non regional theatre jobs in my fellow students heads in grad school. Most of them had no real knowledge that there was so much more they could do out in the world then just theatre. I like to think that they are better off because of it. A bunch of them are now working in architecture, corporate, and themed entertainment. I had a colleague meet with their advisor about what they wanted to do when they were done with grads school and it did not go well. The student told their advisor that they wanted to go into scenic and production design for fashion shows, galas, retail installations, and product launches. The professor gave the student guff about their decision since the professor didn't understand why the student was getting an MFA in scenic design to do that. I had also observed similar situations when design faculty would metaphorically and sometimes literally put their noses up at the idea of doing work like this on front of students in their class.

So I think part of this is a generational things, there are some faculty who come from a time period where work like that didn't exist. It could be a resistance to change and there may be a fear that something they hold dear and invested their lives into is going away. At the same time in a post Regan, post 9/11, post W. Bush, and eventual post Trump world the landscape of our business has changed drastically compared to when the older faculty in this example were starting out. I think part of the solution is just time, as faculty retire we will have younger faculty come in who are a part of our modern industry which is including less and less theatre. On top of that I think that there also needs to be a change of culture to help curve this problem. This can be as simple as changing the language from theatre technology to entertainment technology. Community engagement outside of the academic department for the students to work on projects can be a successful avenue. This could include collaborating with a local theme park, museum, or production company on a retail display for example. Even setting up formal fellowships with frims, conultants production companies, and the like. I think the try and help this issue internally is to develeope relationships with the art and engineering departments within the university, start cross pollinating. Is there any reason that an introduction to theatrical design class should not include tha thetare, art and engineering students? This is all prime learning opportunities for all the disciplines to work together on. This will also hopefully break down the stigma across the board of you don't need to learn this or that, just what I do. I think for the survival of academic programs this needs to start happening. A lot of this was really good thoughts that came about from a really good session I went to at USITT this year called " Is it time to panic!", it discussed the current state, future and potential viability of academic theatre departments. So, should we panic?I think we are just starting to get to the point where the beginning of it may start to set in.


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## TimMc (Jul 3, 2019)

My take is similar to yours, @chawalang . My undergrad major was performing arts education. What I saw was a track to either tether me to school teaching or a piss-poor path to becoming a "designer."

I have a lot of antipathy for "designers", whose personalities run from "great guy/gal/person" to "SWMBO" to "insufferable prick (the word I want to use is censored by the forum software). They don't know squat (or worse, don't care) about what it takes to turn their ideas into things that work, on time and on budget. They are enabled by producers and directors who then cut other parts of the budget to have money to build the designer's dubious pretty picture into a production element.

Coming from a touring music concert and corporate AV background I'm amazed by the lack of communication about MONEY within the design process or between producer/directors and the designers. I continue to be amazed at how inefficient and time-wasting the mounting of most theatrical products is. I've been paid as an IATSE stage hand to stand around for hours while the designer ([email protected]@hole) and shop (incompetent to perform engineering miracles) decide how to make the flawed design work on stage "right freakin' now", often to the detriment of budget, design intent, the director's objectives and the safety of cast and crew.

I've posted about this before so I'll stop here.


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## MNicolai (Jul 3, 2019)

@TimMc, I know at least a couple designers with the reputation for regelling an entire show after its in the air. I for one welcome our new LED overlords.

One of the nice things about coming up through the system sales and design consulting side of things is that I've become really comfortable talking about money. There's really no guidebook other than to build yourself a few nice spreadsheets and develop some rules of thumb based on past experience, but being comfortable with money is a very necessary skill. Both for negotiating my own pay and for giving clients a high altitude idea what something's going to cost without having to go price it all out. Just in terms of developing proposals for projects, I'd say on average I usually have no more than 24-72 hrs notice so I've become adept at looking at projects and throwing big round numbers at them. It's not uncommon for one of my marketing people to call me at 8am and need a proposal to go out the door by 11am. You learn to get by.

Same thing goes for dealing with clients. Lot of times I get a question that sounds easy in conversation but has x, y, z, implications. I can take that information back to the office and spin my wheels on it for two weeks, or I can ballpark "It'll cost you somewhere between $50-75k and they can make a swift decision if they even want to pursue it any further.

I tried to push my professors in my BFA program to talk about money but they were very uneasy about it. Felt like some of that was personal privacy, but I also got the sense they just didn't feel confident in their own design fee negotiating and budget-making skills to teach others about it. I'll bet most of the students in my program couldn't talk intelligently about the pros/cons of working as an employee or an independent contractor, or whether or not to join IATSE, USA, or AEA. The tax, liability, and worker's comp implications alone for working as an independent contractor should absolutely be an entire week of lesson plans.

Don't get me started on all the schools I see renting 24+ wireless mic's a few times a year and not spending a dime towards buying any of their own. Whoever's mixing sound for them is giving them terrible advice.


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## Darin (Jul 5, 2019)

I guess it depends on how you define "spectacle"

If the best way for a production to tell its story is on a bare stage with un-gelled lights, that's great.

If the best way to tell the story is with 1000 light cues and 14 projectors, that's also great.

But if you are writing 1000 light cues when 10 will do, then it's design for design's sake.

I feel the same way about music concerts; some shows clearly have cueing that has been written and rehearsed for the specific songs being played, while some shows are just "flash and trash", generic chase sequences and stock mover patterns.


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## JohnHuntington (Aug 29, 2019)

The USITT TD&T article related to which I was initially asking this question is now online!
http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/hickmanbrady/tdt_2019summer_public/index.php#/34

(The snobbery part only ended up being part of one sentence (about which I elaborated here 
http://controlgeek.net/blog/2019/2/...inded-live-entertainment-students?rq=snobbery )

John


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