# Fire Curtain - Code Question



## MNicolai

Is there any existing fire code in circulation that states fire curtains should be closed each night a theatre is dark?

Our building & grounds supervisor and arts center manager got a hold of a book about schools and theatres they seem to be recognizing as legal fire codes; I haven't seen the book yet but it sounded like a Dr. Doom book, but I didn't think his book seemed that code-oriented.

Now they're going to ask our rigger if they need to, and how they would modify the fire curtain system so that it could be manually raised and lowered without having to hand crank it up and down. Let's face it, our system was designed to come crashing down, and attempts to raise it to be slow and futile. However, they're recognizing this book as legal code. I told the arts center manager that I think that's a book that is _not_ legal code, and info in it merely firm suggestions. However, he said the tone of the book was that it was intended as code, but I brought up NFPA as an example, that even though NFPA has to be adopted and that simply because it's written in a book doesn't mean that a given area acknowledges it. He said he'd bring the book in for me to look at, but I think they've scared themselves unreasonably into spotting a school theatre safety book and immediately assuming it to be a legally-adopted code that they are in violation of. I have seen no theatres though where the fire curtain is _intended_ to be raised manually via something less a PITA than the hand crank that is so convenient it could be used each and every day.

Additionally, the suggestion seems a little odd, as fire curtains are intended to prevent smoke and fire from spreading into the audience so quickly that they do not have time to evacuate, but who is it protecting if the theatre is dark?


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## derekleffew

Interesting question. Old textbooks I have state that in the UK, code requires that "proper operation of the fire curtain (The Iron) be demonstrated to the audience." Thus it is down as the audience enters, and raised just before each performance. I've asked for confirmation on this previously, unsuccessfully.

I know of no US code requiring a fire curtain be in the closed position [edit: Wrong! NFPA 101 Life Safety Code, 13.4.5.7.6.3. (G). See below.], but it's a good idea to exercise the apparatus on a regular interval to ensure it will perform as expected in an emergency. An added benefit is that the fire curtain may be used to secure either the stage or the auditorium, or even to allow both spaces to be used for different purposes simultaneously.

Here are the applicable codes, courtesy of I. Weiss:


UBC
SBCCI
NFPA 101 Life Safety Code
BOCA BASIC
BOCAI/BOCA National
As always, final determination will be made by the AHJ, and practices will vary by region.


> ...our system was designed to come crashing down...


"Controlled descent" is a better term, I think. Most modern Fire Curtains incorporate a Dash Pot, specifically to prevent "crashing down."


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## cprted

derekleffew said:


> Interesting question. Old textbooks I have state that in the UK, code requires that "proper operation of the fire curtain (The Iron) be demonstrated to the audience." Thus it is down as the audience enters, and raised just before each performance. I've asked for confirmation on this previously, unsuccessfully.


An old English stage hand told me about that once. Theatre companies would sell ads on the fire curtain for extra revenue. No first-hand knowledge on my part, however.


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## fredthe

I haven't read Dr. Doom's book, but several theaters I've worked in kept the fire curtain down when the theater was otherwise not in use. Among other things, it can keep random people from wandering into the pit in a dark theater 

If your fire curtain isn't designed to be frequently raised and lowered, but the management feels that it should be, perhaps it's time to ask for an upgrade to a motorized system. (The fact that it is a hand crank may in itself be a danger).

As an aside, the height of the fly gallery in our theater renovation was limited to 49', because in Montgomery County, MD you need a fire curtain if it's over 50' (or so we were told, I haven't personally checked the codes.)

-Fred


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## willbb123

I have never heard of doing it every night. But I see how it _could_ make sense. Its always nice to have a "just in case" back up plan.

We have a motorized fire curtain. We bring it in regularly during the winter, during long load ins to keep the warm air in the house.


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## techguy57

The easiest way to find out is contact your local Fire Marshall, or if you can't find out who that is, at least contact the local fire chief. Codes often vary by city and/or state and can even be covered by a local ordinance. For example, our local fire marshall won't let us put flip down door stops on our auditorium doors. He says it can be an issue for responders, though I'm not sure I see how. 

Regardless, I find that it has been beneficial for me to have a rapport with the local fire authorities. They have been extremely helpful and understanding. They even helped me get a fire alarm system contractor to get his butt moving and get a problem fixed!


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## doctrjohn

The Life Safety Code, NFPA 101, does have language on "Proscenium Curtains" (13.4.5.7). Specifically, 13.4.5.7.4 requires them to be in the closed position except for performances, rehearsals, etc. Unfortunately I am looking at the 2003 version at the moment, so there may be additional/different language in the 2009 version. Obviously, as with any other model code, it is up to the local AHJ (Authority Having Jurisdiction) to decided how they wish to interpret said code, and how/if they want to enforce it. There are also stated exceptions in the code including, but not limited to, deluge/water systems. If this is something you are concerned about it could be worth talking to your AHJ outside of a normal inspection (IE: non adversarial, information gathering, make sure we are all on the same page before there is an issue/question). I have found that most AHJ's like to be consulted, or used as a reference, and that establishing a relationship, and demonstrating an active interest in safety, can make the inspection process easier (especially if there are questions, problems or concerns).

Best,
John


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## DaveySimps

I agree with what others have state, ultimately this is up to your AHJ. Mine requires that we bring it down each night before leaving the facility. I have read the Dr. Doom book and think it is great. However, the statements in the book are not necessarily code. I do believe, however, that most of them are really great ideas that more people should try to incorporate into their operational practices.

~Dave


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## MNicolai

Mind you, I'm still not sure that this is Dr. Doom's book that we're talking about, but that's what came to mind first when the ACM was telling me about this.


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## derekleffew

It appears @doctrjohn is absolutely correct, at least in 2005 in CT. From this document: https://portal.ct.gov/-/media/DAS/Office-of-State-Fire-Marshal/2016cfsc.pdf?la=en -

> 13.4.5.7.6.3. (G) Curtain Position. All proscenium curtains shall be in the closed position, except during performances, rehearsals, or similar activities.


I wonder how many users actually abide by this? See here for poll.

From _Practical Health and Safety Guidelines for School Theater Operations_, Dr. Randall W. A. Davidson. Risk International Publishing, 2005, pages 407-8:

> Fire Safety Curtain
> 
> 20. The fire safety curtain, which is a major component in the total fire protection system in the performing space, shall be maintained in keeping with Life Safety Codes and Uniform Building Standards, fire prevention codes, ANSI standards, and state fire codes. It shall be kept in the "down" position whenever the stage is not in use, i.e. except during productions and rehearsals.
> 
> 21. The fire safety curtain can be in the up position when there are rehearsals, and it shall also be up during productions. Otherwise, it shall be kept in the down position, and it shall fully seal to the stage floor and close off the proscenium opening. All mechanical elements and the integrity of the fire curtain and its system shall be fully operable at all times.


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## willbb123

derekleffew said:


> It appears @doctrjohn is absolutely correct, at least in 2005 in CT. From this document: https://portal.ct.gov/-/media/DAS/Office-of-State-Fire-Marshal/2016cfsc.pdf?la=en -
> 
> From _Practical Health and Safety Guidelines for School Theater Operations_, Dr. Randall W. A. Davidson. Risk International Publishing, 2005, pages 407-8:



Ok, I dont know my Fire Curtain history. Bringing the curtain in whenever there is not something going on, makes perfect sense if the curtain isn't tied into the fire alarm system. But I dont see a need to do that, if the curtain will drop when the fire alarm is tripped.


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## MNicolai

I don't know that most fire curtain systems are tied into the FA system in a manner which they can trigger the entire system to go off. That said, if the FA system gets tripped, our fire curtain does not automatically drop in. I believe it has two pull rings on either side of the proscenium with a fusable link. Fire protection systems are often very unique to each building though, so that's not to say that someone else has an FA system that when triggered, automatically drops the fire curtain in.

I do know that our large doors to the scene shop automatically close on an FA test of the system.


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## Sony

derekleffew said:


> Interesting question. Old textbooks I have state that in the UK, code requires that "proper operation of the fire curtain (The Iron) be demonstrated to the audience." Thus it is down as the audience enters, and raised just before each performance. I've asked for confirmation on this previously, unsuccessfully.



This is true, I can confirm this from personal experience. I spent an entire semester in the UK in 2006 as part of my theatre program pretty much just going to see theatre in the UK. I saw close to 50 different shows in about 40 different venues and I can confirm that in every venue equipped with a fire curtain that they had to show that it worked. Usually it was not in place when the audience walked in though, more commonly it was brought in during intermission. Unless the show had no intermission and in this case it was displayed at the beginning of the show. I went back this year at the end of March for just a week and I saw Billy Elliot while there and I can confirm that this procedure is still in place.


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## gafftaper

I have Dr. Doom's book and he definitely points out that it's much safer to keep your fire curtain in the down position. However there are many theaters that were not designed for that sort of use and you can damage the system cranking them up and down every day. I would write to Dr. Doom for clarification or send an e-mail to Bill Sapsis or Jay Glerum. If your system is a hand crank I would say it's not designed for daily use and you are likely to put far more stress on the system than it's designed for cranking it up and down all the time. 

Either leave it up or have them upgrade your fire curtain to something that is designed to be raised and lowered regularly.


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## fredthe

MNicolai said:


> I do know that our large doors to the scene shop automatically close on an FA test of the system.


(OT) We had our large roll-up door connected to the FA, so it would drop during any test. The only problem was, it took a visit from the door company to reset the mechanics of the door after any test, and the door wouldn't open until it was reset. The finally disconnected it from the FA system, and left it with just a fusable link.


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## kenneth

cprted said:


> Theatre companies would sell ads on the fire curtain for extra revenue.



In Aberdeen's main theatre, His Majesty's, they have the iron covered in ads from local businesses and it's shown before, at the interval, and after each performance.

We don't have one on our stage at school, and I'm not sure what is meant to happen to it with regulations...


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## JChenault

My understanding has always been that it is up to the local jurisdiction. My memory of Chicago is that there the audience has to see the fire curtain in when the house opens, and then it can be removed. This is probably the most extreme code in the country ( As I remember triggered by the Iriquios theatre fire in 1903.

Now as to what makes sense - If you have a fire curtain I would certainly test it regularly if it can easily be tested. Many of them are not made to be raised and lowered regularly.


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## DuckJordan

in our high school we have never ever brought down the fire curtain, Except for the time it randomly decided to slowly bring itself in... since it is a cut cord fire curtain there is obviously no way to lower and raise the fire curtain without an actual fire at least its not designed at all to be lowered unless there is a fire or under conditions which an operator with a knife would cut a holding cord... since a fire marshal comes in every year and complains of our red door constantly, we decided to mention the fire curtain situation, since it kept randomly coming down on its own... he said tie the rope to something... so long story short in our area the only code on fire curtains is they have to be there... they may not have to work correctly but as long as they can be brought in durring a fire its ok... i can understand bringing it in for regular testing if its do able but i don't think you would have to bring it in when no one is in the theater as its more designed to save audiences from a fire on stage than as a preventative measure against further spread of fire for the whole building.


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## venuetech

the ESTA publication Protocol - Fall 2009 digital edition issue, has an informative story
entitled "Beyond fire safety curtains--- Fire modeling on theatre fire protection systems"

It discusses a bit of history and future.


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## teqniqal

The 2009 version of the NFPA 101 Life Safety Code (www.nfpa.org) also requires that the fire curtain be deployed (flown-in) when the faciity is not in use. One must also realize that the design requirements for fire curtains have changed over the years as well, so having a curtain that cannot be manually (or electrically) operated is no longer acceptable.

Additionally, the code requires that the system be tested every 90 days, and inspected annually. Furthermore, the staff must be trained annually on how to operate the system. This builds familairity with the system so that people arn't afraid to use it, and acts as a reminder regarding the requirements for the curtain to operate properly (i.e. the curtain path is not blocked, the signage is in place, and someone knows how to activate it).

There are three other NFPA documents that also address the Fire and Smoke Control Systems:
NFPA 204 Standard for Smoke and Heat Venting
NFPA 80 Standard for Fire Doors and Other Protective Openings
NFPA 70 National Electric Code

Your local building code will also have conditions that must be met.

You should consider having a Theatre Consultant (<insert shamless plug here>) redesign the _System_ so that it meets all of the locally adopted codes.


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## MNicolai

Our fire inspector has come through the space a number of occasions already. A couple days ago was his most recent visit to check on where we located all of our fire extinguishers. So far, he has not mentioned anything about the fire curtain and other theatres I've worked at have never had issues with being required to have the fire curtains in.

I understand the purpose of the code, but not ever having worked in a venue where that specific section of code has been enforced, I'll admit I'm a little confused by it.

With a code like this existing, how could H&H Specialties sell brail winches specifically for fire curtains in the United States that depend on hand operation? Or is our problem that in a less messed up install, the hand operation would, in fact, not be a total PITA and go fairly quickly if not for the fact that our installers made it so that to turn the winch handle, you have to dismantle the rope lock on the first line set?

Speaking of which, since I made this post we have had the fire curtain drop in. We don't know why it did, but it did. I was working on a line set at mid stage when the FC started to drop. I've worked on FC's before, so I knew how to pull the box for the brail winch apart and setup the hand crank. Then I went to operate the crank, but the way it's installed, you can't make a full revolution with the crank because the rope lock for the first line set is in the way.






This is our setup:
http://www.hhspecialties.com/BR-1.pdf

Some angry phone calls later, we had the installer on site. He walked in, cocky, telling me how there's always a reason for the fire curtain to trip, but then couldn't find it. He tightened some springs in the brail winch, amputated the round weight from the system and walked off with it, then told us he didn't know why it had tripped.

While he was there, he took the time to inform us that the system was specifically designed to have the brail winch located where it was, including that the rope lock on the first line set would have to be removed to crank the FC back up.

I have a_ new _rigger coming in next week for an unrelated project, but one of the topics I'll cover with him is this. Before then, I'd like to get a better idea of whether or not it's worth pursuing a redesign of our system, and what that might entail.


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## teqniqal

"Our fire inspector has come through the space a number of occasions already. ..... So far, he has not mentioned anything about the fire curtain and other theatres I've worked at have never had issues with being required to have the fire curtains in.

I understand the purpose of the code, but not ever having worked in a venue where that specific section of code has been enforced, I'll admit I'm a little confused by it."

If the version of the code that requires this has not yet been locally adopted, then they are not typically going to mention it. Also, many AHJ's don't understand theatres and fire curtains, so they don't know what to look for or comment upon. Eventually, the newer code will be adopted, and upgrading will be necessary. Codes like this are the MINIMUM that is required. It is OK to do better. The new code is written to promote the best practices to follow, so I recommend that facilities aspire to the newest code even if it is not yet locally adopted.

"With a code like this existing, how could H&H Specialties sell brail winches specifically for fire curtains in the United States that depend on hand operation?"

Not knowing the particulars about your installation, or the date of it, it is difficult to say. However, NFPA 80 (2010) Paragraph 20.6.2 states that:

"Fire safety curtain assemblies other than straight lift unframed fire safety curtains for proscenium openings less than 850 square feet shall be power operated."

"Or is our problem that in a less messed-up install, the hand operation would, in fact, not be a total PITA and go fairly quickly if not for the fact that our installers made it so that to turn the winch handle, you have to dismantle the rope lock on the first line set?"

From what you have told us, I'm guessing that the placement of the Braille Curtain Winch is not well coordinated with the placement of the #1 line-set locking mechanism (read: "FUBAR design"). I know that seems obvious, but I thought I would reaffirm your thoughts.

"He tightened some springs in the brail winch, amputated the round weight from the system and walked off with it, ..."

Were these the round weights that are supposed to activate the release of the braille winch brake? If so, he took your release mechanism. I'd check to see if the system still works properly.

if you would like to discuss this specific project with me further, plese feel free to contact me directly at efriend (at) teqniqal (dot) com.


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## derekleffew

teqniqal said:


> ...One must also realize that the design requirements for fire curtains have changed over the years as well, so having a curtain that cannot be manually (or electrically) operated is no longer acceptable. ...




teqniqal said:


> ...Eventually, the newer code will be adopted, and upgrading will be necessary. ... The new code is written to promote the best practices to follow, so I recommend that facilities aspire to the newest code even if it is not yet locally adopted. ...



You seem to be implying that facilities must be immediately updated to conform to current code regulations. Is NFPA 101 not like NFPA 70 where an installation must only meet the requirements at the time of installation (unless undergoing a significant renovation)?

While I wholeheartedly agree that codes represent the minimum current safety requirements, I think it's slightly unrealistic to expect a facility to upgrade/renovate every three years when new codes are published.


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## MNicolai

Our installation is Nov. 2008, so we are probably under new-er code, but maybe not the new-est. I am not aware of which codes are locally adopted; I will have to find out.

The rigger told us that the round weight was unnecessary for us. I don't recall if that was before or after he had tested the system a number of times.

And yes, you are correct that the location of the brail winch is poorly coordinated with the 1st line set. For regular operation, we'd either have to move the rope lock or move the assembly for the brail winch. I can't even imagine moving the rope lock permanently would be possible, so we're really only talking about moving the brail winch, which is probably not a small project.

Our proscenium is 22'x60' (HxW), putting us at ~1320 sq. ft., so under new code we would be required to have a motorized lift mechanism. I don't have my own copies of NFPA 80 or NFPA 101, only NFPA 70, so I don't know what the codes say about fire curtains for those codes that we are under the umbrella of. Is 850 sq. ft. a newer addendum to 2010 or has that been in effect for a few years?


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## teqniqal

derekleffew said:


> You seem to be implying that facilities must be immediately updated to conform to current code regulations. Is NFPA 101 not like NFPA 70 where an installation must only meet the requirements at the time of installation (unless undergoing a significant renovation)?


 
No, I did not say that they MUST be IMMEDIATELY updated. I said that if they are making changes, significant repairs, or renovations that they should consider designing to the most current published standard, not the currently adopted standard. The newest code publication, like the newest version of a computer program, has more of the bugs fixed. That said, there are some facilities that have 30-50 year old systems that did not work well when they were originally installed; and should, for the sake of public safety, be renovated. This is a moral imparative, not a legal mandate.


derekleffew said:


> ... I think it's slightly unrealistic to expect a facility to upgrade/renovate every three years when new codes are published.


 
Agreed. However, that is all the more reason to design to, or exceed, the most currently published standard. This is so you won't be 'behind the curve' before the building even opens. Many jurisdictions are operating on three, or more, code revision cycles behind the current published code. Considering the time from when a design is published for bidding to when the facility is compled and accepted by the owner, it is possible that the design could be 10-12 years behind the current standard if it only met the requirements in-place at the time it was originally documented. I'd like to think that we (the design team and the Owner) consider the safety of the occupants to be important enough to make the faclity as safe as we can regardless of the sluggishness of the local code adoption policy.

One must also realize that it is a multitude of codes that define a building, not just the NFPA, and many of those codes also have requirements that affect the fire curtains, smoke vents, and other detection and alarm functions. This is why a good theatre consultant will work closely with the other design team members so that he communicates the rational behind his recommendations to the others, and watches the other systems designs so that they don't counter-mand the theatrical funtionality of the space. In my experience, rigging, lighting, and sound systems designed by contractors tend to be less mindful of coordination with other building systems, and they result in more awkward facilities for the end-users to work in.

Sprinkler pipes are a good example: If you turn a fire sprinkler engineer loose to design a system for a stage without any guidance or review, you will end-up with pipes running nilly-willy across loading doors, devouring prime real estate downstage, all intertwined with the rigging, and placing head-whackers across the catwalks. Same goes for HVAC duct layouts.


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## museav

JChenault said:


> My understanding has always been that it is up to the local jurisdiction.


That is my understanding as well. Local building codes typically include NFPA and other 'standard' codes by reference but may also add specific exemptions or additions to those. And the interpretation of the code is up to the AHJ (Authority Having Jurisdiction).

There are some future changes that are difficult to predict. I understand the newest version of NFPA being introduced has some major changes regarding voice evacuation systems, apparently not only are aspects such as STI-PA requirements moved from an Appendix to the main body but there are also situations where voice announcements would be allowed to take precedence over audible fire alarms.

These two issues also tie together as local codes may not reference the latest version of national codes, I think local codes can currently reference as far back as the 2000 version of NFPA. So while applying the latest code versions during design may put you ahead of the curve, they may not actually be applicable and the local codes could skip from an earlier code version to a later version without ever referencing any versions between them.


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## MNicolai

museav said:


> That is my understanding as well. Local building codes typically include NFPA and other 'standard' codes by reference but may also add specific exemptions or additions to those. And the interpretation of the code is up to the AHJ (Authority Having Jurisdiction).
> 
> There are some future changes that are difficult to predict. I understand the newest version of NFPA being introduced has some major changes regarding voice evacuation systems, apparently not only are aspects such as STI-PA requirements moved from an Appendix to the main body but there are also situations where voice announcements would be allowed to take precedence over audible fire alarms.
> 
> These two issues also tie together as local codes may not reference the latest version of national codes, I think local codes can currently reference as far back as the 2000 version of NFPA. So while applying the latest code versions during design may put you ahead of the curve, they may not actually be applicable and the local codes could skip from an earlier code version to a later version without ever referencing any versions between them.



The weird thing about audible horns as fire alarms is that they are subjectively noticeable. In this day and age, in a new building with horns and strobes, you'd never have a problem figuring out what's going on, but what will those horns sound like in thirty years?

I worked in an old school last November for a haunted house project. We took over the entire school, which some sections of date back to the 1930's. We had several FA problems as a result. On one night, which the fire department described as a freak accident, the glass plate for one of those old "Break Glass" pull stations (I guess it technically wouldn't be a pull station) slid out of the frame, releasing pressure on the button, causing the alarm to go off. The building was occupied with several hundred paying customers at that point, so it was no small alarm.

However, the audible alarms in the building weren't horns, they were buzzers. It took a couple minutes even for event management staff members like me to figure out what was going on because it sounded like a loud vacuum cleaner, and the buzzers didn't even all start at the same time. In some rooms they started over 30sec later than they started in others. As soon as we knew what was going on, we started to flip on lights everywhere and escort patrons out. That was easier said than done because many of the patrons thought the buzzers were part of the haunt and didn't understand it was a real alarm, even as I came up to them, fire extinguisher and bright flashlight in hand, waving them towards the exits.

We were allowed to be in there because the fire alarms were technically operational and were up to code, at least what the code was when the building was completed, but from a moral standpoint, those buzzers should, at the very least, be replaced with strobes and horns if occupancy is to remain.

It's almost surprising that there isn't a legal obligation for buildings to update to at least some of the basic new fire codes after a certain amount of time. It may be legal for that building to be at least 40 years behind the curve, but it certainly doesn't make it safe. (I hesitate to say a full 70 years only because I imagine that at some point they did update the system, but I would only be making a guess.)


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## museav

MNicolai said:


> It's almost surprising that there isn't a legal obligation for buildings to update to at least some of the basic new fire codes after a certain amount of time. It may be legal for that building to be at least 40 years behind the curve, but it certainly doesn't make it safe. (I hesitate to say a full 70 years only because I imagine that at some point they did update the system, but I would only be making a guess.)


I believe the local codes and ordinances also determine what has to be immediately implemented, what updates relate to certain work, what is 'grandfathered', etc.

The thing to keep in mind may be that what you have with NFPA, NEC, the International Code Council, ISO, IEC, ANSI, etc. are organizations and associations creating suggested codes and standards. These are not entities having the authority to enact or enforce those codes or standards. For example, here in Georgia the IBC (International Building Code), IFC (International Fire Code), NEC, etc. are referenced at the State level in the The Official Code of Georgia Annotated, but all with amendments. A County may reference the State codes but also add further amendments and a Municipality might reference the County Codes with additional amendments. That's why you have to check the local codes and not just NFPA, IFC, NEC, etc.


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## billn

edited to make some operational corrections

> While he was there, he took the time to inform us that the system was specifically designed to have the brail winch located where it was, including that the rope lock on the first line set would have to be removed to crank the FC back up.

He lied to you. There is no way that would happen - the drawings from the manufacturer do not show such a setup. Someone screwed up, probably the installer.

> I have a new rigger coming in next week for an unrelated project, but one of the topics I'll cover with him is this. Before then, I'd like to get a better idea of whether or not it's worth pursuing a redesign of our system, and what that might entail.

Is there room to move the winch along the back side of the proscenium wall, where it belongs? It may require a redesign, but I would get someone else to do it. The release line length and weight combination may be important. It looks like that weight may act as the force required to slow the curtain during the last 8 feet of travel. The winch and pedestal are very heavy - use care in moving it.

> The rigger told us that the round weight was unnecessary for us. I don't recall if that was before or after he had tested the system a number of times.

Why would you believe him, when he has already lied to you? If my understanding of the system is correct, that weight provides the tension to partially engage the drum brake engaged during the last 8 feet of curtain travel. 

I don't see any place in the winch box where there would be springs. The drum is locked by the brake caliper. And that should not even have an adjustment - since it is weight operated. 

My personal opinion is that you need to obtain a new rigger, as soon as possible, to take care of problems in your facility. I would not trust this one at all.

I suspect he shortened the release lines to make the lines provide the necessary 12+ pounds of pull on the release line, which keeps the brake fully engaged.

Have you tested the curtain since he was there - from both sides? Does it slow down starting a 8 feet above the floor?

Call the manufacturer and ask THEM if the weight can be freely omitted.


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## MNicolai

Here's the update I have on this.

We have found ourselves a new ETCP certified rigger (our previous was was ETCP as well), and he used to be a JR Clancy and H&H distributor/installer. Now he does freelance rigging. He's inspected our entire rigging system for the measly price of $450, and within the next two weeks he will provide us with a lengthy (7+ pages, plus photos of all of issues) report on problems with the systems, ordered by seriousness. Each problem on his list will include a quote for the price to fix it.

After the inspection he did tell us that if we had all of the work performed at once, it would probably take him at least a full week and a half straight. He said we do not have any critical safety concerns that require immediate attention.

Amongst other things (many, other things), he will be moving the location of the brail winch, as well as possibly redoing the entire fire curtain. There are number of issues he said we can take care of on our own, that are smaller problems, but that's hardly to say there isn't a large amount of work we would need him to perform.

Our new rigger went freelance and incorporated just around the time the building was being designed. His first major bid on a project was our venue; he ended up coming in second, probably because he deliberately deviated from bid spec on a number of issues that did not makes sense to him (aka, the same problems that don't make sense now) The school district who owns the venue has learned a valuable lesson on spending extra money to get it done right the first time.

It's not much of a stretch to say we're not far from having a majority of our rigging systems rebuilt.


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## derekleffew

Glad your issues are being addressed Mike. 

One point I'd like to make: Being an ETCP-Certified rigger does NOT, necessarily, qualify an individual to be a rigging inspector. In fact, many certificants would not perform such an inspection due to liability reasons. But they would know whom to recommend. Likewise, I'm sure there are some? rigging inspectors who are not ETCP-Certified.


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## MNicolai

A rigging contractor is in today to work on our FOH catwalk. He's the guy we had inspect our fire curtain. His inspection report says, in no uncertain terms, that our fire curtain could be tripped at any moment because the round weight that's supposed to keep tension in the lines was originally installed on the wrong side of the stage. So even before the first contractor removed it, it wasn't doing it's job.

His report is being filed with the district to request a swift solution.


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## Ryan5443

As I understand the code (in NY) there is no requirement of closing the curtain nor do you need to provide proof of "proper operation" and if we did we would be screwed as we have had occasions where we needed to raise the curtain several feet and it took well over 35 min to raise the curtain 5 feet. If we were to lower it fully we would be there forever getting it back up (there is no adapter for the odd looking gear crank.


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## church

cprted said:


> An old English stage hand told me about that once. Theatre companies would sell adds on the fire curtain for extra revenue. No first hand knowledge on my part however.


 
the theatre I worked in in the U.K. in the 70s always had the fire curtain "in" between poerformances and it was "out" thirty minutes before the performance started and "in" again thirty minutes after the the performance ended. I also remember the fire curtain having advertisements for local businesses painted on it.


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## MPowers

Ryan5443 wrote:


> As I understand the code (in NY) there is no requirement of closing the curtain nor do you need to provide proof of "proper operation" and



Not So. below is an excerpt from NFPA 80 – Standard for Fire Doors and Other Opening Protectives – 2010 Edition
[38/93 Page]

Chapter 20 - Fabric Fire Safety Curtains page 80-35

20.6.10.6* A sign shall be mounted adjacent to each fire safety curtain control station stating
the following:
NON EMERGENCY FIRE CURTAIN OPERATION ONLY

20.7 Operation of the Fire Safety Curtain Assembly.

20.7.1 General

20.7.1.1* The fire safety curtain assembly shall be closed at all times except when there is an
event, rehearsal, or similar activity.

20.7.1.2 Automatic closing shall be by gravity.

20.7.1.3 Emergency operation shall be verified by the owner every 90 days.

20.7.1.4 A signed and dated testing report shall be kept on file with the owner for review by
the AHJ as an ongoing acceptance procedure.

In other words, if your local Fire Marshall or AHJ wanted to, you could be cited for non compliance or worse. 

The thing that concerns me is that if the existing fire curtain in your facility functions as described, there are some serious problems with the rigging in your facility. The really worrisome issue is that, in my experience as a rigger and rigging inspector, problems such as you describe are rarely confined to one aspect of a system but are indicative of the condition of the entire system and it's general condition, usage and maintenance. I suspect your facility is long overdue for an inspection and probably needs a considerable amount of TLC to get it into good safe working order. While I hope that every show and production is a magic carpet ride to enjoyment, education or introspection, my real concern is that every technician, stagehand, performer or person visiting our home (the stage), be safe and not in danger while doing this thing we call "Theatre". I hope you are safe, take care.

Perhaps if you show this post to your teacher or someone at the school, it might start the ball rolling to get something done. Here's wishing you luck.


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## MNicolai

MPowers, if you're referring to me and my facility, I believe you've hyperbolized the situation. AHJ comes through and inspects all of the time, having no issues with our fire protection systems. We have a very good relationship with them and they are not about to suddenly shut us down on code they know we are not capable of complying with because it was not in effect at the time of construction, therefore we did not the install systems we would've needed to in order to be in compliance. While our existing systems are capable of being cycled every day, it is not a practical expectation for us to do that and AHJ knows that.

While our fire curtain may accidentally get tripped at some point, in the last 28 months our facility has been open, the fire curtain has only had one accidental trip, and that was before any riggers came in to look at our system. In the twelve months since our last inspection, we've had no issues with our fire curtain.

We have a dozen-page report sitting on a bookshelf in our box office from a rigging inspection made a year ago, and we know with a reasonable amount of certainty that there is no reason to believe we have any immediate safety hazards due to our rigging systems. We are aware of several minor things that should be looked at in the next few years and some more major concerns that we'll have to deal with as the systems age over the next couple decades, but there is no reason to believe anyone is in harm's way anytime soon.

Is our fire curtain something that should probably get overhauled within the next decade? Probably. But not right now. Not a single AHJ that I know in the United States is enforcing this policy about fire curtains being closed when the theatre isn't in use. Those who even are aware that this section of code exists are not about to shut down theatres for non-compliance -- they'd be forcing them to have their fire curtain systems replaced in existing facilities. As we are aware, it is a very rare circumstance where new building and fire codes are enforced retroactively upon existing facilities. And I do not for a moment believe having the fire curtain in during off-hours makes anyone any safer. While it'd really suck to have it accidentally drop in, having it extra-sensitive isn't going to prevent it from tripping in the event of a fire -- the solder rings will still melt and the curtain will still drop into place.

Am I actively concerned at this point that it's a problem right now? No.

Do I think that anyone is put in any danger based on what I know about our rigging and fire protection systems? Not a chance.

Do I think AHJ is going to shut us down anytime in the next few years because of our fire curtain? Not really, and although at some point they may want to talk about it, they trust that we make good judgments and do a good job of self-governance. For the most part, we only have situations worth talking about when we specifically call them in, like when I was preparing to put a pool of water in our black box last summer and wanted to shine Vivid-R's in from windows in the sides of the pool -- in the end, they thought I had taken the appropriate precautions and signed off on my scenic and lighting designs.

Trust me, we're not being anywhere as reckless as you make it sound.

That said, I'm curious why the text reads:

> NON EMERGENCY FIRE CURTAIN OPERATION ONLY


Because, correct me if I'm wrong, the pull-rings on either side of the stage are there _specifically in case_ of emergencies. The system will _eventually_ trip on its own, but it'll trip _faster_ if someone pulls a ring off of the wall instead of having to wait for the solder links to melt.

IMO, this section of code reeks of NFPA not understanding how fire curtains have been installed in 90% of facilities, and therefore are writing codes that are absurd to enforce in existing installs. If every facility had an automated fire curtain system installed, we'd be having a different conversation, but I've never seen a fire curtain system yet that wasn't a PITA to crank back out after it's been dropped in, therefore making it impractical to regularly cycle it in and out.


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## museav

MPowers said:


> Not So. below is an excerpt from NFPA 80 – Standard for Fire Doors and Other Opening Protectives – 2010 Edition


It is certainly worth verifying the claim that "there is no requirement of closing the curtain nor do you need to provide proof of "proper operation"". However, as discussed earlier, is what you referenced actually applicable to the situation? To start with, NFPA 80 is a Standard, so it would seem to be part of an applicable code only via several layers of reference. Then there is what version of NFPA, if any and with what amendments, is referenced in the local codes? Also, has local code forced compliance with newer codes or are the codes and ordinances from when the building was built or last renovated still applicable?

This can get complex and establishing what codes are actually applicable can be significant effort when addressing existing facilities. And that is without even getting into how the AHJ then interprets them.


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## Sony

MNicolai said:


> IMO, this section of code reeks of NFPA not understanding how fire curtains have been installed in 90% of facilities, and therefore are writing codes that are absurd to enforce in existing installs. If every facility had an automated fire curtain system installed, we'd be having a different conversation, but I've never seen a fire curtain system yet that wasn't a PITA to crank back out after it's been dropped in, therefore making it impractical to regularly cycle it in and out.



Actually in most newer facilities it is fairly easy to reset, for instance at NNHS it's one button on the wall with a key switch, much like riding up in a genie lift. Unless a fuseable link fails there is really nothing to reseting the fire curtain more than holding a buttons for 1 minute. As far as I know almost all new facilities have a system like this as it's easier to install and maintain a line winch system than it is another counterweighted line set


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## Ryan5443

MPowers said:


> Ryan5443 wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> Not So. below is an excerpt from NFPA 80 – Standard for Fire Doors and Other Opening Protectives – 2010 Edition
> [38/93 Page]
> 
> Chapter 20 - Fabric Fire Safety Curtains page 80-35
> 
> 20.6.10.6* A sign shall be mounted adjacent to each fire safety curtain control station stating
> the following:
> NON EMERGENCY FIRE CURTAIN OPERATION ONLY
> 
> 20.7 Operation of the Fire Safety Curtain Assembly.
> 
> 20.7.1 General
> 
> 20.7.1.1* The fire safety curtain assembly shall be closed at all times except when there is an
> event, rehearsal, or similar activity.
> 
> 20.7.1.2 Automatic closing shall be by gravity.
> 
> 20.7.1.3 Emergency operation shall be verified by the owner every 90 days.
> 
> 20.7.1.4 A signed and dated testing report shall be kept on file with the owner for review by
> the AHJ as an ongoing acceptance procedure.
> 
> In other words, if your local Fire Marshall or AHJ wanted to, you could be cited for non compliance or worse.
> 
> The thing that concerns me is that if the existing fire curtain in your facility functions as described, there are some serious problems with the rigging in your facility. The really worrisome issue is that, in my experience as a rigger and rigging inspector, problems such as you describe are rarely confined to one aspect of a system but are indicative of the condition of the entire system and it's general condition, usage and maintenance. I suspect your facility is long overdue for an inspection and probably needs a considerable amount of TLC to get it into good safe working order. While I hope that every show and production is a magic carpet ride to enjoyment, education or introspection, my real concern is that every technician, stagehand, performer or person visiting our home (the stage), be safe and not in danger while doing this thing we call "Theatre". I hope you are safe, take care.
> 
> Perhaps if you show this post to your teacher or someone at the school, it might start the ball rolling to get something done. Here's wishing you luck.



NFPA is *NOT* *NY* code (although I agree that we do need some safety practices in our facility). Also, our theater is new and was opened in 2004 (Arts and Athletics Center) and we recently had a scrim installed (A year or two ago) and had an inspection by IWiess. But to make things worse the administration at the district doesn't care about the facility. It seems that all tasks of preparation or maintenance, or safety seem to fall upon me. However I will check into the curtain. I know that it was an installation that was done by JRClancy. Thanks

RCF


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## MPowers

> if you're referring to me and my facility,



Mike Nicolai, Gees, don't be so defensive! The first line of my post referred to a post by someone else, not you. Lighten up! 


> That said, I'm curious why the text reads: NON EMERGENCY FIRE CURTAIN OPERATION ONLY Because, correct me if I'm wrong, the pull-rings on either side of the stage are there specifically in case of emergencies.



The reference in the code refers to methods of operating the curtain in a non emergency situation. That is, on a motorized installation, pushing the button, in the case of a manually operated curtain, un-locking the purchase line and pulling on the rope. The point of the sign is to inform anyone that pushing the button or pulling the rope is not the closing method to be used in an emergency but rather pull the ring or trip the lever or ..... and then head to the nearest exit! 

My biggest concern was not the questionable compliance, but rather the indication that the system was not properly maintained and serviced. As I stated, negligence in one area usually means negligence in others. 

Yes, NFPA 80 is a standard, not a code or "law". It is a good standard and as an example of why it is set, is the inspection I will be performing on Tuesday. The Brail Fire Curtain at a particular facility didn't come down the last 6" and seal when the "emergency" test was performed last week. It turns out that the curtain had not been lowered in 11 months. The normal stiffness of the Zetex fabric, wadded up at the top of the proscenium for 11 months, resulted in the fire curtain itself holding the lower batten and seal above the stage floor. If the curtain had been lowered each day, and the fabric allowed to "stretch" or "hang out" it is probable that the curtain would have performed the operation test without a problem.


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## BillConnerFASTC

Sorry if I'm several years late to the thread but always interesting to see what one has wrought.

I became involved in developing codes and standards in 1987, starting with NFPA's Life Safety Code and the requirement in that code for both new and existing places of assembly was my first code change. If you don't like it, blame me along with all of the folks that agreed with me and voted for it, which did include a number of folks form the entertainment technology industry. The basis for it was that by my own observation and later in a "survey" (a bunch a telephone calls to rigging companies and consultants by me), many fire safety curtains simply would not close due to obstruction, wear and dirt and rust, or because they had been fastened opened as a result of false trapping. The range reported in the survey was that between 75 and 100% of fire safety curtains in this country do not work as intended. Couple this need to "exercise" the curtain to be sure it worked with the numerous and common falls of the stage during non-performance times and the more common European practice of regularly closing the curtain, and it became code. Subsequently NFPA 80 and PLASA E1.22 both included the requirement for regular closing.
Whether or not the local authorities, whether be the guy down the hall or the state fire marshal defending on your jurisdiction, adopts and/or enforces is a different issue from whether or not you want to follow either NFPA 80 or E1.22, both of which are American National Standards, and defend that choice should the need arise.
Sometimes there are changes in laws (like codes) that require changes to existing buildings. In 1960s, existing stages were required to have fire sprinklers installed. After the MGM hotel fire in Vegas, existing hotels were required to be sprinklered. Old buildings are required to be made accessible to people with disabilities. And many others.
In the end, I’m amazed how many times I’m in a theatre and no one has a recollection of ever having seen the fire curtain closed, and often fear testing it. You can defend the Rube Goldberg designs that make testing difficult and scarey, but I can’t and won’t. Systems and equipment for safety should be maintained and periodically tested to assure they will work if called upon. Plan motorizing your fire safety curtain.


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## museav

BillConnerASTC said:


> Sorry if I'm several years late to the thread but always interesting to see what one has wrought.
> 
> I became involved in developing codes and standards in 1987, starting with NFPA's Life Safety Code and the requirement in that code for both new and existing places of assembly was my first code change. If you don't like it, blame me along with all of the folks that agreed with me and voted for it, which did include a number of folks form the entertainment technology industry. The basis for it was that by my own observation and later in a "survey" (a bunch a telephone calls to rigging companies and consultants by me), many fire safety curtains simply would not close due to obstruction, wear and dirt and rust, or because they had been fastened opened as a result of false trapping. The range reported in the survey was that between 75 and 100% of fire safety curtains in this country do not work as intended. Couple this need to "exercise" the curtain to be sure it worked with the numerous and common falls of the stage during non-performance times and the more common European practice of regularly closing the curtain, and it became code. Subsequently NFPA 80 and PLASA E1.22 both included the requirement for regular closing.
> Whether or not the local authorities, whether be the guy down the hall or the state fire marshal defending on your jurisdiction, adopts and/or enforces is a different issue from whether or not you want to follow either NFPA 80 or E1.22, both of which are American National Standards, and defend that choice should the need arise.


I find the general concepts of "codes" is widely misunderstood. NFPA, NEC, ICC, etc. do not create building codes, they create model codes that governing authorities can then use by reference in the legislation that addresses establishing building codes, which is typically done on a State, County and/or Municipal level. Not only are there multiple potential model codes the related legislation may modify them and/or reference different versions. For example, Georgia and the county I live in currently use NEC 2011 with no amendments, however the building code for the largest city in the county references NEC 2008 with 2009 State amendments.

Another example is that Georgia law, which the County then references, references the 2006 International Fire Code (IFC), which is apparently a merger of what three formerly competing model codes; the National Fire Prevention Code, the Standard Fire Prevention Code and the Uniform Fire Code, rather than NFPA. Making it even more confusing, the International Building Code (IBC) and the IFC both reference NFPA sections, so NFPA is relevant but not directly and only as referenced by the IBC and IFC that are defined by the local building code. Confused enough? 

Somewhat similarly, a Standard, such as an ANSI Standard, is simply an established reference usually developed by a recognized group or organization following a defined process. A Standard is not a legal requirement or code or anything binding except as introduced by reference as part of relevant legislation or legal agreement such as a contract. The one possible exception that I am aware of is that accepted Standards may be seen as establishing "industry standard practice", but the reality is that although the Standards organization would most likely try to prevent it from happening, you could conceivably have directly competing and conflicting Standards just as you have had competing model codes.

What is important to understand about this is that model codes and Standards are only relevant if they are part of the applicable building code legislation (and the interpretation of that by the local AHJ) or referenced in a binding agreement and even then they may be amended or modified. My understanding is to not assume any model code or Standards to be directly applicable or not until you have verified if and to what degree that is true.


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## BillConnerFASTC

I agree with Brad. We often talk about model codes as if they automatically became statuartory law, and that is not the case. After seeing two totally misleading published articles on codes and standards, I wrote one and I believe it will be in the winter issue of Protocol. (However off topic this is from the original question.)


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## derekleffew

BillConnerASTC said:


> ... After seeing two totally misleading published articles on codes and standards, I wrote one and I believe it will be in the winter issue of _Protocol_. (However off topic this is from the original question.)


Look forward to reading it, Bill. I'll try to remember to post a link here when that issue is available online.

EDIT: Article http://www.lightingandsoundamerica.com/mailing/PLASAProtocol/PWinter13_CodesAndStandards.pdf . Complete magazine available at http://na.plasa.org/publications/protocol.html .

Further off topic: 
Welcome to Control Booth. It's semi-customary for new members to start their own thread in the New Members forum. 
P.S.--I've already added you to the ETCP wiki article.
.


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## dbaird34

I think the threads have danced all around the original question and touched on many aspects of "the code" But to reply to the original question "Is there any existing fire code in circulation that states fire curtains should be closed each night a theatre is dark?" 

Yes there is. The NFPA Building Code - NFPA -5000 -2003 edition (when adopted) requires the closing in accordance with section 16.4.5.6.4 "The curtain shall be kept in the normally closed position when each day's performances are completed."

I hope this finally answered the question.


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## BillConnerFASTC

The NFPA 5000 The Building Code was issued first in 2003 and largely translated the NFPA 101 Life Safety Code requirements into building code, including this one. I assure you this requirement first appeared in the 1988 Life Safety Code, which is widley used. I know of practically no jurisdiction - other then the Bureaus of Indian Affairs - that uses 5000.

From 1988 to 2006 editions of the Life Safety Code, it included (from 2006 edition):
12.4.5.7.2.7 Curtain Position. All proscenium curtains shall be in the closed position, except during performances, rehearsals, or similar activities.

When NFPA 80 added Fire Curtains, it included this requirement, so when it was referenced by the Life Safety Code (as it was in 2009) and the NFPA Building Code, the requirement - along with all requirements for fire safety curtains - were deleted - since they are in the referenced NFPA 80. The 2009 edition of the International Building Code - the most widley used model building code in this country - adopted the reference to NFPA 80.

And which jurisdictions adopt which model codes with what amendments is always relevant.


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## teqniqal

The 2003 version of the NFPA 5000 had the explicit language quoted by dbaird34, subsequent editions reference the NFPA 80.

With regard to the Life Safety Code 101:

Chapter 12 (New Assembly Occupancies) is the part of the code used for planning and building new construction.
Chapter 13 (Existing Assembly Occupancies) is what becomes effective after the building is turned-over to the owner. Chapter 13 - Paragraph 13.4.5.7.1 (1) refers the reader to Chapter 12 - Paragraph 12.4.5.7, which in-turn references NFPA 80 _Standard for Fire Doors and Other Opening Protectives_.

So, by way of tri-level reference, the requirement to close the fire curtain in a working theatre is inherent in jurisdictions that have adopted NFPA 101, _which is a significant portion of the US_.

Beyond that, it's a good idea to implement any pre-emptive strike with regard to fire safety, so 'Just Do It'. Codes are only the _minimum_ required level of safety, YOU CAN DO MORE.


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## Zebulon1880

Underwriting Laboratories keeps and updates current theatrical accident safety regulations and standards.

Here is the link to their fire curtain regulations, specifications and test program:

https://standardscatalog.ul.com/standards/en/standard_10d_2


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## BillConnerFASTC

UL 10D specifically exclude proscenium opening protection. I'll repeat that UL 10D does not apply to fire safety curtains on stages or as discussed above. See last sentence of itrem 1 in the linked summary:
"Note: Fire protective curtains are different than proscenium type (theater type) curtains. This document does not apply to proscenium type curtains."


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