# LED color wash lights



## churchmouse (Oct 3, 2008)

I need some help. I want to change a church gym, with high grey cinder block walls, into a banquet hall. I really feel LED lighting is the way to go. The church is on a budget, but we don't want to buy junk. I was looking at the Jam Star Elite lights until I read some old threads about how they are probably just a front for more Chinese junk. Initially the lights would be used as uplights to break up the ugly walls until we could afford to purchase enough lights to totally wash the walls in color. I know little about lighting so my head is swimming with lots of mis-information. I could really use some suggestions!


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## jerekb (Oct 3, 2008)

Specs? Do you have Dimmers, Console, what type of power supply? If you have a good power supply I would go with a couple of large blinders with some color gels.


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## churchmouse (Oct 3, 2008)

The gym is the size of a basketball court. The lights would need to stand on the floor and shine up - therefore for safety reasons LED is best. There are multiple AC outlets to plug into - power isn't a problem. I am starting from scratch with nothing. Originally the lights would be stand alone and later I could daisy chain them and connect to a DMX board. I read that lights with a "hold DMX" feature are nice because you can program them using a Pocket Console and eliminate the cables. However these might be too pricey. Thanks for your reply - fellow Coloradoan.


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## derekleffew (Oct 3, 2008)

You have three options:
1. Incandescent PAR type lamp, which you've dismissed for safety reasons.
2. Proven quality fixtures like the CK ColorBlast12, PixelRange PixelPar, and Coemar ParLite, at $1000-$2000 each. Beyond your budget, and probably not a wise investment with the technology advancing so rapdily.
3. What you deem "cheap Chinese junk." This would have to include the offerings of ADJ and Chauvet (though often not inexpensive) as well as brands such as NeoNeon, Wiedamark, and countless "generic" cans. 

This product, currently on ebay for $69.96, (+$29.95 shipping!) Looks intriguing for your intended purpose. Just understand that it's not going to be very bright, and must be thought of as disposable, because if it breaks, it will cost more to repair than to replace.



edit: So contact BillESC privately and I'm sure he could at least do better on shipping. Also, since he rents and sells them on a daily basis, he could give us a fair and unbiased evaluation. Bill, judging from this picture, it looks as though it's a PAR46-sized can, rather than a PAR64? (Another reason not to be fooled by size, quantity of LEDs, or wattage.)


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## BillESC (Oct 3, 2008)

That's our LE14.


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## David Ashton (Oct 3, 2008)

This thread is a classic example of the expectations people have about leds, to light a gym would cost how much? maybe $250,00, even then it would be bright but certainly not even,I meet similar expectations on a weekly basis, which is why I try to bring a dose of reality back to these types of threads.


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## churchmouse (Oct 3, 2008)

Thanks for your ideas! Maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree trying to light up a gym. I realize the lights in a gym won't look like lights in a white tent, but I was hoping to soften the looks of the cold walls by placing a light every 15-20 feet rather then wash all the walls in color. I went to the Wiedamark site and wondered if the Colorwasher 252 or Color Bar 19 (under LED wall washers) might work better than a Par cam? I have been assuming that the more LED's in a fixture the better it would be for my applications. That's why I didn't think a Par64 was really what I needed. I still have a lot to learn!


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## icewolf08 (Oct 3, 2008)

I know you said that you don't want to use conventional fixtures due to safety concerns, but you will get the most bang for your buck if you use either standard PAR Cans or ETC's Source 4 PARs. A new Aluminum PAR64 should run you no more than $56 including connector and color frame. Lamps are usually about $25. So at $80 per fixture you get at least two PAR Cans for the price of one low end LED fixture.

In the grand scheme of lighting gear, PAR Cans are the cheapest workhorse units. They are light weight, don't require tons of maintenance, and are easy to work with. For your application they will do exactly what you want, just thrown in some cuts of color and you are set. Also, they don't require any type of controller to turn them on and set colors. Simple to set up, simple to operate, and simple to take care of. That is what you want.


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## churchmouse (Oct 3, 2008)

I know this is a dumb question, but could I use white LED PAR Cams with color gels rather than using color LED PAR Cams? Since these will be standing on the floor, I really have to be careful that children don't touch them and get burned. Otherwise, I know you're right about using conventional fixtures. Thanks.


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## BillESC (Oct 3, 2008)

Irradiant has just completed the re-lighting of a church gym with the Sun Wash AW fixture.

The numbers are very interesting. Based on 60,000 hours of usage, this is how things look.

Original 24 fixture 400w Metal Halide high bay fixtures.

Fixture cost: $ 150.00 = $ 3,600.00
Lamp replacement (3 @ $ 25.00 per fixture) $ 1,800.00
Energy consumption @ $ .12 KwH $ 69,000.00

Total Cost of Operation (excluding labor and replacement ballasts) $ 74,400.00

Sun Wash AW replacement system.

Fixture cost: $ 1500.00 = $ 36,000.00
Lamp replacement - $ 0.00
Energy consumption @ $ .12 KwH $ 25,416.00

Total cost of operation $ 61,416.00

No consideration has been given to the HVAC costs for cooling the heat generated by the twenty four 400w metal halide system.

All and all, the new LED system will save considerable money, energy and labor over the long run. The Sun Wash AW also offers the ability to adjust the color temperature of the fixture from 3000k to 10000k which is a nice feature.



For more information visit the link below.

SUN WASH AW / SRL-6349W


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## icewolf08 (Oct 4, 2008)

While I do see the significant cost savings in Bill's scenario, I think that for many people the upfront cost of $36K is hard to come up with. $3.6K is much more manageable for many, and the $600 expense for lamps every 2.2 years of constant service is pretty small.

Don't get me wrong, I think that LEDs are great and the energy savings and the waste savings is very important (not to mention the color mixing capabilities), but I still find it amazingly difficult to justify the upfront cost.


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## derekleffew (Oct 4, 2008)

icewolf08 said:


> ... A new Aluminum PAR64 should run you no more than $56 including connector and color frame. Lamps are usually about $25. So at $80 per fixture you get at least two PAR Cans for the price of one low end LED fixture....


 $56+25<$69.95? Cost of gels and lamps, not to mention power and HVAC? I'm not saying LEDs are ready to light a stage, but are perfect for creating atmosphere and ambiance.

I was using the ParCan-type as an example, but a wall-wash fixture may fit your application better. churchmouse, my favorite LED fixture is the CK ColorBlast 12, but out of your price range. The Weidamark ColorWasher252, or similar, would likely meet your needs. Check with Bill or your local lighting vendor for a demo.


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## David Ashton (Oct 4, 2008)

Could I ask what the light intensity was with the halides and is now with the leds, that little detail was missing.To give the same light with 30% of the power means that leds are 3 times more efficient than metal halides- I don't think so, unless I missed some major breakthrough.


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## len (Oct 4, 2008)

I haven't compared them to the new products mentioned above, but this what I use and I'm pretty happy with them. Used LED Par 64 - Version 2 - Black For Sale I have an older version and the difference is that mine required building a base and they don't have the dmx display. 

I've heard a lot of delivery problems with JamStar, but have no actual experience. Buying from Bill you won't be disappointed, tho.


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## BillESC (Oct 4, 2008)

Here's a few quick shots with a cheap camera of the Sun Wash AW.

The fixture.


Amber LEDs only.


White LEDs only.


White and amber LEDs.


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## cdub260 (Oct 4, 2008)

churchmouse said:


> I know this is a dumb question, but could I use white LED PAR Cams with color gels rather than using color LED PAR Cams? Since these will be standing on the floor, I really have to be careful that children don't touch them and get burned. Otherwise, I know you're right about using conventional fixtures. Thanks.



I've just got a minor correction for you. They're par cans, not par cams. A can is a container, in the case of the classic par can, containing a lamp with a parabolic reflector. A cam is the shaft on the engine in your car that operates the intake and exhaust valves.

As for wash lights for your walls, I did a quick Google search and came across the American DJ Color Fusion. It's a wash light with RGB color mixing capability and if I'm reading the spec's on it right, uses a lamp you can pick up at any hardware store. I can't comment on its performance or reliability as I've never used this instrument, but depending on your source they sell for $200.00 to $280.00 a piece.


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## cancolby (Oct 4, 2008)

Hi
I'm no expert, but I bought four Chauvet ColorPalette's recently for something, and they're brighter than I expected. They cost $229 each, barley take any power, you can choose a color for stand-alone, or hook them up with DMX. Here's what they look like at night in front of my house (the blue on the balcony is a Chauvet ColorStrip (a different light)). It's a big 2-story house. They obviously wouldn't be as bright with ambient light around. On the bottom picture here, one light makes the purple, two (from both sides) make the yellowish, and one makes the blue on the left.


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## churchmouse (Oct 4, 2008)

C.W. thanks for correcting my CAN/cam error. I really do know the difference, but for some reason I just keep typing m instead of n - must be a senior moment.


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## JohnA (Oct 4, 2008)

Those pics were quite helpful. Can you advise what size the LEDs are on the color pallette? Thanks


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## soundlight (Oct 4, 2008)

Chauvet

It's got standard LEDs, not high power Luxeons or Rebels or equivalent. It's got 288 of them, though. I think that they're the 5mm variety.

Oh, and it can be had for $170 if you go to the right people. $219 is a bit much for this fixture IMO.


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## lieperjp (Oct 5, 2008)

soundlight said:


> Chauvet
> 
> It's got standard LEDs, not high power Luxeons or Rebels or equivalent. It's got 288 of them, though. I think that they're the 5mm variety.
> 
> Oh, and it can be had for $170 if you go to the right people. $219 is a bit much for this fixture IMO.



How durable are these? If they can be had for $170, they look kind of neat - unless they can't take abuse and break easily.


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## soundlight (Oct 5, 2008)

lieperjp said:


> How durable are these? If they can be had for $170, they look kind of neat - unless they can't take abuse and break easily.



Any DJ light isn't really designed to take abuse. But they store nicely in padded laptop computer sleeves, from what I've heard, so you put 'em in padded laptop sleeves in a nice box lined with foam (with slots cut in the foam along the long walls to slip the sleeves down in to and keep them vertical), and you should be good. Make sure that you get a pretty large laptop sleeve though, because the Colorpalettes are almost 17 inches wide. They're pretty darn bright, but as I haven't actually used 'em (only seen 'em in geetar center and elsewhere), I can't testify that they're road-worthy.

Keep in mind that it is a DJ level product, but for a DJ level product, it's pretty darn good. I also like the ability to split up the surface in to 8 individual sections with the 27 channel mode.

I know that if you do put them in a nice padded sleeve in a decently protective case for travel, they should be fine. From what I've read, this does seem to be one of Chauvet's better and more reliable products on the DJ end of things.


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## lieperjp (Oct 5, 2008)

soundlight said:


> I know that if you do put them in a nice padded sleeve in a decently protective case for travel, they should be fine. From what I've read, this does seem to be one of Chauvet's better and more reliable products on the DJ end of things.



What about in a theater? I know, I know... DJ products really aren't meant for theatre... but these look like they could come in handy - the wash on the house is nice - maybe a cyc from a short throw??? (Or gray cinder block walls, in the attempt to stay on topic...)


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## soundlight (Oct 5, 2008)

That you need to figure out for yourself. Here's a hint: talk to the right dealer and get Chauvet to send you a demo fixture.


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## gafftaper (Oct 5, 2008)

A couple comments:

Back to the original question. Are you trying to put some color on the walls while the normal lights off or on? That makes a HUGE difference. Somewhere around here you'll find pictures of a wedding in a tent with LED lights (I think it's one of Len's jobs). If those LED's are the only light source and you are going for a somewhat dim, soft look then you might be able to do something with a bunch of low end LED lights. If you are trying to add color to the walls with the rest of the lights on, forget it. You need a higher quality more expensive product. The cheap LED fixtures just don't have the power to compete with a big Metal Halide fixture, they will be faint and washed away by the normal lights. 

Personally I would have to go with a bunch of incandescent PAR 64's. As was said $80 each and they are bullet proof. Can you have some pipes mounted up high in the corners of the gym? If you can those cheap par cans can blast color all over the place from the corners of the room. 

A question was asked about what kind of LED's are in one of the Chinese made LED lights. This is a really tricky area. They don't use the high end Luxeon K2 LED's we love in our flash lights. They produce their own LEDs, with wildly different levels of intensity. It's incredibly inaccurate to look at a fixture and say this Chinese fixture has 3mm LED's but that one has 5mm LEDs so it will be brighter. There's just too much variation in these products to get any sort of good data on them right now. You've got to see it yourself or talk to a dealer you trust. 

A demo is the way to go. See if you can rent one to see how it looks in the Gym.


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## cancolby (Oct 5, 2008)

About the Chauvet ColorPalette:


lieperjp said:


> How durable are these? If they can be had for $170, they look kind of neat - unless they can't take abuse and break easily.



They look and feel pretty durable... there's a plastic screen covering the LEDs and the rest is all metal. I still am careful when carrying them around and stuff, but they are strong.


lieperjp said:


> What about in a theater? I know, I know... DJ products really aren't meant for theatre... but these look like they could come in handy - the wash on the house is nice - maybe a cyc from a short throw??? (Or gray cinder block walls, in the attempt to stay on topic...)



My four ColorPalettes are actually installed in the theater at my school right now, and they do a lot more than I thought. I figured they could be used for some accent/mood/faint color wash stuff, but without the other stage lights on, they actually are bright enough for visibility across most of the stage. I'll try and take a picture soon. I think they could definitely be used for a cyc, but the very similar Chauvet ColorStrip would probably be better for cyc. If you want to know more about either light, just ask!


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## bri4827 (Oct 7, 2008)

I just sold my 10mm LEDs for these 1watt led pars from ColorKey.

http://www.prolightingdepot.com/product.sc?categoryId=38&productId=362

I don't know much about the company but I know side by side with the older 10mm they blow them out of the water, and are pretty much on par with the Coemar iWash's that I use. 

This fall I'll be bringing a bunch of them into the theater for a few different shows, and I'll be sure to throw up pics and reviews. 

I used to use the 10mm for weddings and such as up-lighting. The only issue I had were that they are all fixed beam, and it was difficult to get a full wall wash. But so far I'm very happy with the 1watts - they can color fade, color bump, or have a bunch of fixed colors that can be set through the on board display. Definitely worth the upgrade if I had to choose again.


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