# Rope Cleat



## kicknargel (Oct 29, 2010)

I'm working in a dead-hung theatre and looking to fly some medium-sized stuff, say 50 lbs max. Of course I need to tie the lines off at the wall. Does anyone know of cleats that are rated for lifting? I can find plenty of cast iron, galvanized boat cleats that I'm sure would be fine, but it would be great to have something made in the USA, rated, stamped and insured.


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## headcrab (Oct 29, 2010)

Notice: I have no rigging experience. Take what I say here with that in mind.

However, it would seem that cast iron is a bad material for this application, since it's brittle. (the cast iron c-clamps are unrated)

Isn't this what a pin rail is for? A suitable frame, of structural steel, say Unistrut, bolted to the floor, sounds like it would work admirably here. And it has a load rating.


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## DuckJordan (Oct 29, 2010)

headcrab said:


> Notice: I have no rigging experience. Take what I say here with that in mind.
> 
> However, it would seem that cast iron is a bad material for this application, since it's brittle. (the cast iron c-clamps are unrated)
> 
> Isn't this what a pin rail is for? A suitable frame, of structural steel, say Unistrut, bolted to the floor, sounds like it would work admirably here. And it has a load rating.


 

This is getting into the realm of TOS violation. If you have no experience don't attempt to post info as to how to do it.

My suggestion is to call around to the local theatrical stores, they will be able to help you not only find a dealer but possibly help make it easier for you to do what your talking about. 

Just as many have said before taking rigging info from a forum where you can't be 100% sure about backgrounds and actual knowledge is 100% dumb, NO offense intended.

The reason riggers get paid the big dollars is they know that its not just where and what tools to use to attach it but, they also know the intricate math involved. Anything over 25lbs. and not being attached to a batten with multiple points and i would call someone who is more experienced. 

I'm sure you'll get much the same response from some of the other members of this community. We don't know your background or your situation (don't try to explain it), and since we don't know it we can't offer advice on what to get.

Also any online resource for rate material is always questionable most companies that sell stuff for rigging like to come in and check how your using it just to make sure its being used properly. At least that's what it is like in my area.


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## Footer (Oct 29, 2010)

DuckJordan said:


> This is getting into the realm of TOS violation. If you have no experience don't attempt to post info as to how to do it.
> 
> My suggestion is to call around to the local theatrical stores, they will be able to help you not only find a dealer but possibly help make it easier for you to do what your talking about.
> 
> Just as many have said before taking rigging info from a forum where you can't be 100% sure about backgrounds and actual knowledge is 100% dumb, NO offense intended.


 
Headcrab spoke correctly and exactly to the point in this situation. Just because Headcrab does not have rigging experience does not mean that Headcrab does not know how materials work. He/she spoke exactly to what are the issues involved with using any material that is cast instead of milled or forged. 

You might have some issues finding any type of rating on a cleat. Unlike wire rope and shackles, a cleat is only as good as the attachment method to the holding surface and how the rope is tied off to it. Odds are the rope would fail or more likely the bolts that hold the cleat down would fail before the cleat itself would fail. Cleats are sized for the rope they hold, therefore the cleats should be rated for the breaking strength of the size of rope you are using. Be sure that the cleat you buy is sized the same as the rope you buy. Also, getting a small pin rail built at a local welding shop would also not be a bad idea. 

I would trust anything you get from Mcmaster-Carr. They do sell some stainless steel cleats. McMaster-Carr


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## MPowers (Oct 29, 2010)

I kind'a agree with Kyle on this. I do trust hard ware from McMaster to do what it is rated at, but I have a problem telling someone to use it if I don't know HOW they are going to use it. 

From the original post, I infer that this is a small, one time use. However, if this is a frequently recurring need, perhaps Nick should consider a real pin rail like....
http://www.jrclancy.com/catalog PFs/catalog_pinrail_pf.pdf

To be perfectly honest, a pin rail like the one shown (which I will be happy to sell you) can be made by any local welding company with certified welders. The Certified part is the guarantee that the welds will stand up to the forces that will be imparted on the structure. 

HOWEVER, as mentioned above in another post and as a part of my personal caveat, and as described in the JRC warranty (and the warranty of other companies that sell pre-fab pin-rails) the end user/installer is responsible for attaching the pin-rail to the building structure and is responsible for the strength and integrity of that attachment. 

There are a lot of ways to make the tie off in a safe and reasonable way, especially in view of the loads you mention. It almost sounds like a couple of bent nails or a screw hook would do the job, but I didn't say that and if you actually do that (Please don't) it might work, emphasis on the "might". However, I can't really tell you anything specific unless I was hired by you and was on site, it's a liability issue. Hiring me is not realistic, (much as I'd love a trip to Denver... Raised in Crested Butte) so I hope the information I posted points you in the right direction.


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## kicknargel (Oct 30, 2010)

Weird, I swear I looked at McMaster and didn't find anything. But there they are. I must have only remembered intending to look there. I'm sure that's the way to go. I could have saved myself a little scolding. (Not complaining, I do it here too.)

We thought about fabbing (or buying) a pin rail, but it's really overkill, plus the space in the wing is SO tight.


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## mstaylor (Oct 30, 2010)

Make sure you have the proper knots to attach whatever you are hanging. You don't want to do everything correct and then use a bad knot to hook to your set piece.


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## kicknargel (Oct 30, 2010)

mstaylor said:


> Make sure you have the proper knots to attach whatever you are hanging. You don't want to do everything correct and then use a bad knot to hook to your set piece.


 
I grew up in a hemp house--baby, I know my knots. Veering off topic: I am amazed and saddened at kids who get degrees in technical theatre and don't know a clove, bowline or trucker's hitch. At the theatre where I got my early training--that was literally the first day of orientation.

Um, did I officially just become an old codger, complaining about "kids these days"?


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## derekleffew (Oct 30, 2010)

mstaylor said:


> Make sure you have the proper knots to attach whatever you are hanging. ...


Does the knot used in rigging on a vertical cleat differ from the Cleat Hitch used in boating? Does this knot differ from that one would use with a pinrail and belaying pin?


kicknargel said:


> ...I am amazed and saddened at kids who get degrees in technical theatre and don't know a clove, bowline or trucker's hitch. ...


But they don't _need_ to know...they have the iPhone app!


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## venuetech (Oct 30, 2010)

kicknargel said:


> At the theatre where I got my early training--that was literally the first day of orientation.
> 
> Um, did I officially just become an old codger, complaining about "kids these days"?



Welcome to the Waybac Club!


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## Footer (Oct 30, 2010)

derekleffew said:


> Does the knot used in rigging on a vertical cleat differ from the Cleat Hitch used in boating? Does this knot differ from that one would use with a pinrail and belaying pin?



Not on any pin rail I have ever ran. The pin rail we use in the theatre is the same as the pin rail used on sailing ships/boats. 

The stage rigging handbook has a great step by step guide on how to tie off to a cleat or pin rail. Notice how you should never full remove the line from the rail when running a line. 
Stage rigging handbook - Google Books


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## mstaylor (Oct 30, 2010)

kicknargel said:


> I grew up in a hemp house--baby, I know my knots. Veering off topic: I am amazed and saddened at kids who get degrees in technical theatre and don't know a clove, bowline or trucker's hitch. At the theatre where I got my early training--that was literally the first day of orientation.
> 
> Um, did I officially just become an old codger, complaining about "kids these days"?


I can send you some good sites for canes.  Actually I wasn't talking about the cleat end but the batten end. I didn't know your background but appreciate someone who knows their knots. I have two sons that both can tie a large variety of knots. Actually the older is an Eagle Scout.


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