# Build my own



## DuckJordan (Nov 24, 2009)

I want to build my own mobile sound setup for gigs of 200-400 people in an open field or building setup I would like to really only spend $8,000 on the whole system and would like to build my own speaker cabs and rack system. the board would really only need 12 inputs with 4 outputs preferably XLR for mains and 1/4" for monitors, the whole setup should only really have the mixing console, a 12 input snake, 2 amplifiers one for mids/high and one for lows, idealy only 1 eq (if you can put both subs and mids/highs on the same eq, and a crossover if needed. again i only want to spend a complete max of $8,000 on the parts/system but cheeper would be better its for a weekend warrior kind of thing.

thanks,
jordan


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## BillESC (Nov 24, 2009)

A few quick questions come to mind. 

Are you an experienced carpenter? Do you understand acoustic design priciples? Have you considered active (self powered) speakers?


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## DuckJordan (Nov 24, 2009)

to your questions, Yes i am a very skilled carpenter, i have also a friend who would help me build and design these cabinets and he has worked in the industry for quite some time. he used to build speaker cabinets for a living, i think he worked for Altec Lansing when they were bigger. I would like to have all the control by the board so yes i have considered powered speakers its just running power to those would be harder than just running audio line.


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## TimmyP1955 (Nov 24, 2009)

You'll save some money.

Unless you are a measurement and crossover guru, you'll most likely have a lower performing end product.

When you sell (to upgrade or get out) you'll loose a larger percentage of your cost than if you had factory made gear.


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## DuckJordan (Nov 24, 2009)

i don't think I'll end up selling just because after i either upgrade or get out of it ill still use it for my own personal use for my band.


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## museav (Nov 24, 2009)

Several different issues. What do you mean when you say "mobile sound setup"? How mobile is it and what is included? I'm thinking in terms of power source, power distribution, transportation, etc.

You budget is really pushing it. A recent thread over on PSW involved a discussion about trying to create a system from scratch for 150 people in a bar for under $5,000. It can be done by lowering expectations, but a recommended system for sound providers in that market is more like $15,000 to $20,000. Go from 150 people indoors to 200-400 people outdoors and those costs can go up quite a bit.

That leads to what you have not mentioned. Things like mics, mic stands, cables, cases, monitors and monitor amps, system processing, power distribution and so on. Probably also a box of miscellaneous adapters and connectors, tools, gaff tape, cable protectors, maybe a sound level meter, etc. For outdoors add tarps, a tent or pop-up for FOH and so forth. Lots of little things that start to add up in addition to the big ticket items. And don't forget to consider insurance, both on the equipment and for your liability.

The cost is also very dependent upon your expectations. What type of music and what level of quality are you envisioning? If you are going to be designing your own speakers you better have some pretty specific goals in mind as far as patterns/coverage, output, sensitivity, response, etc. in order to have a basis for the designs. And I agree with the others, unless there is some specific need that nothing out there meets or unless you account for the value of the experience and do not account for your time and effort, there is no way you can build your own speakers as cost effectively as buying them. And if you are planning on renting or charging for the system, people typically want and will pay for known names and using an unknown, home built speaker could be much less acceptable.

It's not that it can't be done but rather what can be done within your budget and how that matches your goals.


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## DuckJordan (Nov 24, 2009)

museav said:


> Several different issues. What do you mean when you say "mobile sound setup"? How mobile is it and what is included? I'm thinking in terms of power source, power distribution, transportation, etc.
> 
> You budget is really pushing it. A recent thread over on PSW involved a discussion about trying to create a system from scratch for 150 people in a bar for under $5,000. It can be done by lowering expectations, but a recommended system for sound providers in that market is more like $15,000 to $20,000. Go from 150 people indoors to 200-400 people outdoors and those costs can go up quite a bit.
> 
> ...



Biggest issue you seem to be having is you are assuming that it is for a profit type of company, no one but myself will touch this equipment it is for friends of mine or aquantances who would like to maybe have a very small live concert. MICROPHONES ARE NOT NEEDED i do not provide any equipment but the PA system there is no need for me to start adding costs to a hobby type of environment this is not a business. as far as mobile goes think road touring because it needs to basicly fit in the back of a consumer grade van or truck. and as far as tarping goes i have a tarp tent for the equiment setup this is a SMALL setup the biggest problem i have with some of the answers is everyone assumes bigger is better, this is just a hobby environment if i was going professional with this i would buy speaker cabs not make my own. 

The max amount of people it would support is about 150 and this means there is little to no stage just enough room for band equip and speakers on the sides as far as power dist. goes it will be based upon the public park setup, or a garage or basement.

Again this is a hobby not professional so all the little details aren't required as it will be by my choice where this equipment goes not oh well i have to get this gig to pay for equipment thing. microphones and all other equip will be needing to be handled by the band A.K.A. friends and family


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## BillESC (Nov 24, 2009)

"The max amount of people it would support is about 150"

That's a whole lot smaller than the original 200 - 400 ourdoors.

Consider a pair of EV's SXA360 over a pair of SBA760 subs. Plenty of clear, crisp power that can easily handle the 150+ and would come in less than $ 4500.00 with covers. That will leave you with $ 3500.00 for a mixer, cables and power distro since no additional processing will be needed.


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## DuckJordan (Nov 24, 2009)

as much as active speakers would make things easier i am looking for a learning experience as far as building goes, i would much rather make an "ok" system for $500 and learn from it than spend $10,000 and not learn a darn thing. so as good as your suggestion is i would like to build the speaker cabs on my own instead of buying them, as far as rack mounting equipment again all i am looking for is bare bones high/mid drivers, and low subs no kind of box for them, same goes for the mixer and amps, i want to build it all custom.


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## gpforet (Nov 25, 2009)

I'm no expert on building cabinets, I know that a sheet of 3/4" 7 ply no-void birch plywood runs about $50.00/sheet and you're looking at 4 sheets minimum for two tops and two subs. Add the cost of drivers, hardware, handles, and yea, you'll probably get the cost down to around $500.00 per cabinet provided you control it with a processor.

There are many plans available on-line that have been experimented with, refined, optimized and worked-over by acousticians, experienced designers, and engineers. Do you're homework and try not to reinvent the wheel. The lab sub comes to mind. It's a big sucker but the output, and quality of sound is amazing. 

However, if you are venturing into designing your own, don't expect your speakers to perform very well at all. In fact, every system I have heard "built from scratch" would have it's ass kicked by a stack of Behringers. But I'm sure the builder "learned" something from the exercise. And then the builder struggles with trying to get good sound out, fighting with a system that will simply not perform.

I could try to build a car, but it wouldn't work as good, be as reliable and would cost twice as much as a used $3,000 civic.

The science of speaker design is not the same as building a piece of furniture.

This is not meant to discourage you from your desire to learn, but if it was my $8,000, I would spend it on off-the shelf gear, and focus my "learning" on how to make best use of the gear.




DuckJordan said:


> as much as active speakers would make things easier i am looking for a learning experience as far as building goes, i would much rather make an "ok" system for $500 and learn from it than spend $10,000 and not learn a darn thing. so as good as your suggestion is i would like to build the speaker cabs on my own instead of buying them, as far as rack mounting equipment again all i am looking for is bare bones high/mid drivers, and low subs no kind of box for them, same goes for the mixer and amps, i want to build it all custom.


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## SHARYNF (Nov 25, 2009)

I guess if I reread you opening post, it is more of a statement than a question so I am not sure if you are really looking for advice.

Building speaker cabinets has progressed light years since the days of Altec Lansing. I built quite a few A7-500 knock offs in my day. Those days the wall of sound pile them high and wide are long gone. There are quite a bit of plans that are designed for Home speaker systems but not that much in PA systems these days. on PSW there is a lot of information on the LAB subs but a pair of these alone would take a sizable chunk of your budget

Re powered being undesirable because you would have to run power to the speakers, today most setups place the amps near the speakers so this typically is not an issue.

150 indoors vs 200-400 OUTDOORS is a major difference in what you need, and of course it depends on the music you are playing. If it is acoustic guitar folk vs Metallica obviously there will be a significant difference

In todays market there are lots of very good deals going on used systems that could be used. 

Sharyn


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## museav (Nov 25, 2009)

DuckJordan said:


> Again this is a hobby not professional so all the little details aren't required as it will be by my choice where this equipment goes not oh well i have to get this gig to pay for equipment thing. microphones and all other equip will be needing to be handled by the band A.K.A. friends and family


"Mobile sound setup", "gigs", "weekend warrior", etc. suggested that this was indeed intended to be a for profit or professional venture. And in case you did not realize it, going from "200-400 people in an open field" to fewer to 150 in a garage or basement is a big difference. The little details like this do matter, if you had made it clear from the start that it was for a hobby, that you did not need mics, etc. then you might not have ended up chastising those trying to help you who responded to what you posted.

As far as "i would much rather make an "ok" system for $500 and learn from it than spend $10,000 and not learn a darn thing", what do you plan to learn? The first thing might be that unless you use a tried and tested design people typically plan on spending some time and money on related books and software, multiple iterations and variations, blown components, etc. If you do not realize that the drivers and box are complementary and interact, and thus must be treated as a system, then you have some preliminary learning to do before you try building anything.

Beyond that, even if it is just for fun you can bet that no speaker designers start by randomly picking a bunch of components. They work from the outside in, starting by identifying a general need then turning that into specific criteria for the final speaker performance. Then they have some actual basis to start designing the speaker and that will lead to the actual component selection. So if you want component suggestions then you first need to identify your goals and develop your design for the speaker to the level necessary to provide the necessary detail.

This is not just theoretical rants, years ago I made these very mistakes and spent a lot of time and money on something that ended up functioning as a stand for a manufactured speaker that cost much less. The only thing I learned from that was that there was a lot more to designing and building a speaker than I thought.


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## N.Webber (Nov 25, 2009)

Jordan,

You mentioned you're a good saw dust maker...

Visit Bill Fitzmaurice's forum and site.

If you don't 'need' your cabs to look like the usual stuff, Bills designs are cheap 
(the plans, materials and drivers) light, efficient and great sounding.

Join the family...




N.Webber


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## DuckJordan (Nov 25, 2009)

I did not mean to rant about the assumptions of people. i understand everyone's concern about how well this system will sound but when you live in south Dakota and really the best sounding place is a high school auditorium, it doesn't make too much sense for me to spend a ton of money on active speakers. in my experience with both active and passive speakers i have found that the actives are very constrictive to what your are trying to achieve as far as sound goes. while the passives are much more versatile yes they are more likely to have problems but this is both a con and a plus. I am not trying to learn about how acoustics work i am just trying to learn how a speaker system is built and what would affect the sound of the speaker based upon how the box itself is shaped on the outside.

this system does not need to sound great it is just made as a very cheep pa system and it would more function as a "hey thats cool" as much as i think about how certain area's of my career could make me money this is a hobby that i wouldn't mind putting in money to keep it going and only get some satisfaction of it being used a few times a year. 

here is a diagram of how i would like to have this setup


speakers on the ends of the stage would be the high/mid while the two centers would be lows


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## gpforet (Nov 25, 2009)

Geez, I give up.

It would be IMPOSSIBLE to design and build a speaker system without a throrough understanding of acoustic principles. But hey, it's your money. I'm just glad to didn't decide to experiment with eye surgery. Sounds like you just want to toy around with systems, build something that looks impressive, regardless of how it sounds and that will somehow get others to say "hey, that's cool". It might work, but don't expect to get any respect from those who go through the trouble of learning "how acoustics work", and understand that something that looks impressive but sounds like crap is still, by it's nature, crap.

I seriously doubt the best sounding places in South Dakota are high school auditoriums....more than likely a reflection of your own experiences with listening to quality systems.

And the idea that somehow passive speakers are less "constrictive" means what? That with passive speakers you can throw whatever power you want at them, totally wack appropriate crossover freqs and slopes? Again, most likely a reflection on your limited experience. Think JBL Vertec, Meyer Sound Milo, L-Acoustics K1. These are just a few world-class manufacturers who choose this "constrictive" approach.

Last thing, what the box looks like on the outside has alot less to do with how it sounds than what's on the inside, including baffles, ports, and internal horns.


DuckJordan said:


> I did not mean to rant about the assumptions of people. i understand everyone's concern about how well this system will sound but when you live in south Dakota and really the best sounding place is a high school auditorium, it doesn't make too much sense for me to spend a ton of money on active speakers. in my experience with both active and passive speakers i have found that the actives are very constrictive to what your are trying to achieve as far as sound goes. while the passives are much more versatile yes they are more likely to have problems but this is both a con and a plus. I am not trying to learn about how acoustics work i am just trying to learn how a speaker system is built and what would affect the sound of the speaker based upon how the box itself is shaped on the outside.
> 
> this system does not need to sound great it is just made as a very cheep pa system and it would more function as a "hey thats cool" as much as i think about how certain area's of my career could make me money this is a hobby that i wouldn't mind putting in money to keep it going and only get some satisfaction of it being used a few times a year.
> 
> ...


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## DuckJordan (Nov 25, 2009)

I have an understanding of how shape affects how a certain system sounds and i also understand that soft surfaces absorb sound while hard bounce sound and how the curve of the port or baffle or length of the port and shape of the opening effect both the sound and the spread of the sound. four years of working in the field in both a high school and a pro level have given me very good chances of listening to the best in the area, unless someone is bringing in a system from out of town there is no INSTALLED sound system that sound great in the sioux falls area, this is speaking from experience so before you go and try to tell me that i have no understanding of what does and doesn't sound good as part of a sound system maybe you should first learn where the information i have dealt with comes from. also by constrictive i mean it is harder to change the eq coming out of most active systems durring the run of a possible show i want to be able to mess with all eq of a system and the actives mostly have there own built in modifiers this is not a system i want making itself sound good. this is something i want to be able to experiment with.


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## mrb (Nov 25, 2009)

your $50/ sheet seems expensive. I pay $30 for a 5x5 sheet of 18mm (~3/4in) baltic birch which is 13 ply.


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## museav (Nov 25, 2009)

N.Webber said:


> Jordan,
> 
> You mentioned you're a good saw dust maker...
> 
> ...


A very good resource. Bill's specs and statements are sometimes a little questionable but his designs are generally well received. The pros to an approach like that is that they are established designs and there is a large following so input and support from others regarding the designs, construction and potential components is available. The con is that while you may learn how to construct a speaker, you won't learn how to design a speaker since that is already done.

Here's one company that sells components and kits, Welcome to Assistance Audio and of course there are companies like Parts Express that sell a variety components and kits. I'm sure there are many more out there.

I think you may have some misunderstandings regarding speaker processing. You typically try to tune a speaker for a flat phase and amplitude response in the direct field and once that is done it should not have to change, that is the processing built into some powered speakers as well as speaker protection (and often very complex, there are some not that expensive powered speakers that use almost two dozen band limited limiters to provide protection while maximizing output). What may change is processing to address interactions with other speakers, with the environment and for qualitative or artistic purposes but that processing is typically handled through accessible processing or by dedicated system processors.

As I said, what you also have to understand is that a speaker is a system, the enclosure, drivers, crossover, etc. all interact and affect one another. Change the driver in a speaker for a 'similar' one, say one 15" driver for another, and the results could differ dramatically. And the 'better' driver could perform worse if its characteristics are less compatible with those of the enclosure, other driver and electronics. You also have to make decisions regarding tradeoffs, for example you may need to balance bass extension and low frequency output, increasing one may require decreasing the other and/or making changes in multiple aspects of the speaker design.

If you want to experiment with external processing, how do you plan on assessing what you do and deciding what changes to make? Do you have a way to make measurements? Not that measurements tell you what sounds good but they are invaluable in assessing where you are, what has changed and what might need to change. If you really want to play freely with all the processing and don't have the right tools or experience then plan on having a stock of spare components because sometimes the only way you'll find out you went too far or made the wrong change will be when something fails.


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## DuckJordan (Nov 25, 2009)

i actually went to my local retailer today and since, everyone here keeps telling me that its a horrible idea don't do it just buy it i talked to the guy down at SFMusic and asked him his thoughts. He felt the same way so ill start by saying i guess this project will start with just me buying a whole system to use for the actual PA system then build my own speakers and cabs at a later date and just work with them eventually until i have a decent design. yes i understand that they probably will break during experimenting and i am fine with that and i have tools to measure just what they are doing. it will end up being just a hobby to build my own speakers since i found that it is a lot less expensive than what i origionaly thought. grand total came to $3320.05 and this would cover 100-200 people outside and 150-300 people indoors without the system being pushed too far. this included Allen & Heath PA12, 2 Yamaha 15" Speakers, Cables to connect, QSC Amp, EQ, 100' snake and cabinets and mounts for all of the such.


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## Anvilx (Nov 25, 2009)

Here are a few websites with speaker building info that you might find interesting, some of it is hifi stuff though:

Zaph Audio - Hifi Oriented

Diy Audio Projects - Hifi Oriented

Diy Paradise - Name says it all

diy Audio - General audio forum though vastly hifi

Parts Express

Madisound


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## Lightguy48 (Nov 29, 2009)

A couple of quick comments, I've been around a few people that have built their own PA rigs, one guy I used to work with had about a dozen tops per side + subs for outdoor shows upwards of 1000 - 1500 people, it was a nice rig and had a very good sound, the only thing I noticed was it just didn't have the effeciency of the mass produced systems.

If you're a good carpenter, go ahead and give it a shot, you're probably not going to get the same bang per watt you would get out of a commercial/pro cabinet but they are good custom built cabinets out there.

As far as the self powered stuff goes, I also have to respectfully disagree, I've heard quite a few powered Meyer rigs and they sound incredible, loud and clean. Even the less expensive weekend warrior stuff such as the QSC HPR and Mackie stuff packs quite a bunch for club & private parties.


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## airkarol (Nov 29, 2009)

DuckJordan said:


> I want to build my own mobile sound setup for gigs of 200-400 people in an open field or building setup I would like to really only spend $8,000 on the whole system and would like to build my own speaker cabs and rack system. the board would really only need 12 inputs with 4 outputs preferably XLR for mains and 1/4" for monitors, the whole setup should only really have the mixing console, a 12 input snake, 2 amplifiers one for mids/high and one for lows, idealy only 1 eq (if you can put both subs and mids/highs on the same eq, and a crossover if needed. again i only want to spend a complete max of $8,000 on the parts/system but cheeper would be better its for a weekend warrior kind of thing.
> 
> thanks,
> jordan




There is a thread in the Marketplace on PSW, a system of QSC HPR active tops and subs is for sale. If you're not interested in purchasing used, still look into the HPR series. Add in a 12 ch. snake from Audiopile, and a DBX 1231 Graphic EQ, then take a look at the Yamaha 01v96 Digital Mixer. 

Also, read the "Quick and Dirty Bar Rig" spreadsheet on 

http://bennettprescott.com/

David


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## museav (Nov 30, 2009)

airkarol said:


> Also, read the "Quick and Dirty Bar Rig" spreadsheet on
> 
> Bennett Prescott, Audio Industry Professional


Bennett has provided a nice summary of a typical bar band but if you read all of Jordan's posts it was clarified that no mics or sources are required and the needs seem to be less than would be typical for a bar band application. For example, the A&H PA12 noted has only 8 mono inputs, too few for most band applications (I've used more inputs than that just for a drum kit) but apparently it is all that is required for this application.

I'm not clear on the intent for the QSC amp and EQ noted as the A&H PA12 is a powered mixer with an integrated 2x500W (into 4 or 8 Ohms) amp and stereo 4 band EQ. Monitors were mentioned in the first post so maybe that intent is to use either the mixer's internal EQ and amp or the separate EQ and QSC amp for monitors using FB1 and FB2 on the mixer for the monitor sends.


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## DuckJordan (Nov 30, 2009)

i was wondering the same thing when i went back and talked to the guy. he couldn't answer the question so i am back to what i started with is, still looking for 

1. unpowered and now that you mention it 12 inputs at least 6 of which be stereo
2. 2 speakers preferably passive but active would probably make it cheaper
3. if its a passive speaker set up amp to run such speakers
4. EQ
5. power distro
6. misc. stuff like snakes and such... as far as miking a drum set i don't think it would be needed inside but i can see where outside would be needed...
i guess i'm open for more suggestions since it will probably be closer to 6 mo before i have the 10k budget i am wanting for this endevor.


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## Chris15 (Nov 30, 2009)

museav said:


> I'm not clear on the intent for the QSC amp and EQ noted as the A&H PA12 is a powered mixer with an integrated 2x500W (into 4 or 8 Ohms) amp and stereo 4 band EQ. Monitors were mentioned in the first post so maybe that intent is to use either the mixer's internal EQ and amp or the separate EQ and QSC amp for monitors using FB1 and FB2 on the mixer for the monitor sends.



Err Brad, the PA12 (& PA20) comes in both powered and unpowered versions. Powered versions have a -CP suffix.


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## DuckJordan (Nov 30, 2009)

Chris15 said:


> Err Brad, the PA12 (& PA20) comes in both powered and unpowered versions. Powered versions have a -CP suffix.



it was the powered version, thats origionaly why i went back to the guy because it seemed rather expensive (after doing research) for the unpowered board which i asked for


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## gpforet (Nov 30, 2009)

I'm sorry, your original post said the best sounding systems in SOUTH DAKOTA were in high school auditoriums and my response was that I doubted the best sounding systems in SOUTH DAKOTA were in high school auditoriums. I can only respond to what you write, not what you mean.



DuckJordan said:


> Iunless someone is bringing in a system from out of town there is no INSTALLED sound system that sound great in the sioux falls area, this is speaking from experience so before you go and try to tell me that i have no understanding of what does and doesn't sound good as part of a sound system maybe you should first learn where the information i have dealt with comes from. .


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## DuckJordan (Nov 30, 2009)

gpforet said:


> I'm sorry, your original post said the best sounding systems in SOUTH DAKOTA were in high school auditoriums and my response was that I doubted the best sounding systems in SOUTH DAKOTA were in high school auditoriums. I can only respond to what you write, not what you mean.



well sorry for the non included information, although i was correct in how i said it. the only decent sounding systems people bring in from other states


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## howlingwolf487 (Dec 5, 2009)

DuckJordan said:


> 1. unpowered and now that you mention it 12 inputs at least 6 of which be stereo


Allen & Heath Mixwiz 16:2 or 14:4:2


> 2. 2 speakers preferably passive but active would probably make it cheaper


QSC series as mentioned before (powered)


> 3. if its a passive speaker set up amp to run such speakers


if you need them, look into Crown XTi amps; the built-in processing is very handy and the resale value would be excellent.


> 4. EQ


Ashly Audio makes some good ones; dbx is okay.


> 5. power distro


Umm...do you know what you're getting yourself into with this? OR are you simply looking for a rackmounted solution that's pretty much a beefed-up power strip (think Furman)?


> 6. misc. stuff like snakes and such... as far as miking a drum set i don't think it would be needed inside but i can see where outside would be needed...
> i guess i'm open for more suggestions since it will probably be closer to 6 mo before i have the 10k budget i am wanting for this endevor.


Check out Rapco, ProCo, Audiopile, and looked for used Whirlwind snakes.

Good luck with your deal-hunting and try to set your goals in stone before you buy anything.


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## DuckJordan (Dec 5, 2009)

howlingwolf487 said:


> Umm...do you know what you're getting yourself into with this? OR are you simply looking for a rackmounted solution that's pretty much a beefed-up power strip (think Furman)?



thats what i was thinking is just a beefed up power strip


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## howlingwolf487 (Dec 5, 2009)

DuckJordan said:


> thats what i was thinking is just a beefed up power strip



Okay (*whew*). Furman is alright, but there isn't much under $250-$300 that is any different than a glorified power strip (with MOVs). If you make money with your setup, you can look into other alternatives.


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