# No balcony: motorized yoke followspot on ceiling?



## DMahalko (Dec 2, 2009)

I help out with a small-school gymnatorium theater program with very limited theatrical resources. We don't have balconies, catwalks, a control room, rigging or a fly system, etc etc.

One of the challenges is that if we want to use a followspot, we cannot get it up in the air very high without serious safety/fall risks for the student operators. A raised platform about five feet off the floor is about the best we can manage:




In general this works because it is not blocked by the audience, who sit in folding chairs on the gym floor in front of the spot, but it is blinding for the actors because it shines head-on about level with the stage into their face. It's pretty much impossible to get it up overhead.

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One possibility that MIGHT work is a ceiling mounted motor-steered followspot, with motorized iris and focus, and solenoid operated color gels.

This could be manually controlled from a console in the lap of a student with an analog joystick, sliders for iris / focus, and toggle switches for in/out movement of the color gels. (Maybe we could adapt a *USB XBOX controller *for the job...)

I've been looking around for something like this that could adapt onto the top of an Altman Luminator followspot to motorize the various control levers but so far it appears nothing exists to do this.

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There is an X-Y motorizing yoke for ellipsoidal fixtures but it is quite expensive for our limited budget, in the $3500+ range for one fully automated yoke, not including the fixture itself.

City Theatrical - AutoYoke for S4 / Strand SL
CITY THEATRICAL
Pan / Tilt AutoYoke - $2350
AutoIris control for S4 - $475
AutoFocus control for S4 - $650

I have no experience with the ETC S4. I have no idea if it could be bright enough to used by itself as a followspot.

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The alternative is a small fully packaged followspot for around $1000-2000, but I do not know if these have the precise control needed to do accurate slow tracking of actors on stage.

Possibilities:

Chauvet - Legend 1200E Spot
Products Legend? 1200E Spot | CHAUVET Lighting

American DJ - Accu-Spot 575
American DJ Homepage

Elektralite - My575.3
http://www.myelektralite.com/m/p/ELE_BRC_090204_0001.pdf

Mega Lite - Axis 600
Mega-Lite | The Power of Light

Also I don't know if the beam diameter of these would be big enough or the lamp bright enough, or if it is just meant to be used as a moving-lighted-circle fog-beam dance-party style effect, rather than for serious theatrical lighting use.

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And finally, I cannot find any source for a DMX manual hand-control system for live steering of a motorized followspot.

Either nobody has thought of trying to do this before, or it has been tried but does not work very well.

I'm leaning in the direction that this is a novel idea that nobody has tried. *"Theater followspots are hand operated, with someone standing behind it waggling the thing around by hand, and always will be, period!" *

- Dale Mahalko


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## cprted (Dec 2, 2009)

Give these threads a read.

http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/lighting/15470-auto-followspots.html

http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/lighting/11347-follow-spot.html


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## SHARYNF (Dec 2, 2009)

you might be able to use a ML and get a board that has a joystick.
I did this for a site using a ML and a Elation Show designer 1 which had the option for fine control and a joystick. Worked, is it as good as a man'ed follow spot, but then from an operations stand point it made things easier

Sharyn


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## soundlight (Dec 2, 2009)

In a high school, the money could probably be spent better. Also, it's very hard to follow someone with a joystick, and much easier with an actual followspot. No one does this because when they do, they use a moving light and it's written in to cues and not controlled live.

If you're going to do this, the way to do it is a Source Four 19 degree lamped at 750 watts, a Rosco I-Cue, and an Apollo EZ Iris DMX.


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## shiben (Dec 2, 2009)

soundlight, use a right arm instead, it will have more range. DMahalko, is that just the tallest scaffold you have, or do you have one that goes higher? If you could find someone near you who knows how to properly use fall protection, you can probably figure out a way to have students working safely much higher than that. Another option is if you have a skyjack platform lift, this can be used to spot from. Its not the best option, but its a lot better than trying to get a ML to go where you want it to using the clunky controls on a console, even if it had a joystick. 

On the topic of a ML as a spotlight though, someone needs to make a controller that has a 22" video display, and uses an xbox 360 controller to change all the various parameters. Attach a video camera that can see in the dark to the light, and put a crosshairs in the center. Next, make all the parameters unlocks that you need to hit the correct person a specific number of times before you can open other things, say, color. Then, half the techs I regularly work with could pick up just about anything, and stick with it, and finding a followspot op would be child's play (oh those of the generation of overdeveloped thumbs and gunning for unlocks, lets hear it!).


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## SHARYNF (Dec 2, 2009)

Don't laugh put that is along the lines of what I have played with:

I use a ML instead of a I cue so that I can mount a small wireless Camera on to the ML head. It does feed a monitor, but instead of a xbox I use a showdesigner 1 with the joystick, this ML is NOT connected to the rest of the lighting setup, just as a remote control for the "ML Follow spot" Some of the older Showdesigners could work with a track ball

Is it perfect, no is it weird, sure but I do find that students with lots of FPS experience on games pick up on it pretty quickly and will use it

The problem with the I cue IMHO is that you cannot use any sort of video camera for positioning since it is a mirror based system, you still have the issues of the positioning controller/human interface

Anyway not traditional but then again from the land of Duct tape ...;-)

Sharyn


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## DMahalko (Dec 2, 2009)

shiben said:


> soundlight, use a right arm instead, it will have more range. DMahalko, is that just the tallest scaffold you have, or do you have one that goes higher? If you could find someone near you who knows how to properly use fall protection, you can probably figure out a way to have students working safely much higher than that. Another option is if you have a skyjack platform lift, this can be used to spot from.


 
There is more scaffolding, but it is for building maintenance staff use only. I seriously doubt anyone would allow a student up on a scaffold some 25 feet high even with fall protection gear. I'm also not sure how the students would get up there without climbing a practically straight-up stepladder. 

We do have a Genie lift, but it is the smallest capacity version that can be loaded by two people onto the back of a pickup truck, and is intended just to lift a single person in a very small cage.

A two-person Skyjack could accomodate a followspot and operator on the platform, but new Skyjacks are $20,000+. Though looking on eBay, perhaps we could afford a used 2-person Skyjack in the $7,000 or less range, and which could also be used for other building maintenance projects. 



shiben said:


> On the topic of a ML as a spotlight though, someone needs to make a controller that has a 22" video display, and uses an xbox 360 controller to change all the various parameters. Attach a video camera that can see in the dark to the light, and put a crosshairs in the center. Next, make all the parameters unlocks that you need to hit the correct person a specific number of times before you can open other things, say, color. Then, half the techs I regularly work with could pick up just about anything, and stick with it, and finding a followspot op would be child's play (oh those of the generation of overdeveloped thumbs and gunning for unlocks, lets hear it!).


 
I wasn't thinking about seeing the stage from the point of view of the spotlight but you are correct, that would give the best possible remote control. It'd be just like steering a cannon barrel in a first-person shooter game.

If you don't mind using analog video technology, standard fixed-mount security CCTV cameras would easily adapt for this purpose. Many have an auto-iris to deal with very bright and dark areas, and there can be remote control zoom and focus controls via RS-485 (similar to DMX):

Samsung SCC C4301, around $400
Samsung SCC C4301 - Google Product Search

* Low light camera, .02 lux minimum scene illumination
* Dual voltage (12v DC / 24v AC) 
* 1/4" sensor size, Color DSP, 480 TV lines of resolution
* 3.6-79.2mm motorized zoom


Perhaps these posts will help to spur formal development of a remote controllable followspot with a low-light zoom camera option, and with support for dual-analog-stick game controllers. 

- Dale Mahalko


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## Axislights (Dec 2, 2009)

I'd use a 19' Scissor lift. No climbing involved, runs off a edison cord, usually with some sort of power connection up on the platform as well. You could also have the student harnessed and saftied to the railing. I'd check your local regs and the district policy on this, but I know some districts that use these for focusing the theatre lights in thier performance spaces. You could also rent these locally just for the day/week if needed. Around here they rent for about $90 a day with $100 delivery charge.
Genie Scissor GS(tm)-1530 & GS(tm)-1930 Lifts


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## Footer (Dec 2, 2009)

I have used standard single person genie manlifts (AWP 30s in this case) as follow spot positions. I mounted a Source 4 on a stick on the basket and the operator was able to run the show without any issue. I think you are going to have to leave the idea of having a real followspot in either of these situations. A 5 deg S4 with a followspot kit from city theatrical will give the same results as a spotlight under 4k. Being a person that taught in a public high school.... is there going to be P.E. class in the gym while this camera/leko/rightarm thing is going to be hanging in the air?


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## mstaylor (Dec 2, 2009)

The scissor lift or single man lift neither requires fall protection. You can use it but it isn't required. Now if you have more pipe scaffold you could use the single man lift to access it but you would have to have some type of fall protection to make the transfer. Something similar to an arrestor used on a wire rope ladder would work. You would have to have a trained rigger install the arrest equipment.


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## PeteEngel (Dec 2, 2009)

As much as it sounds like a good idea to start packing technology on top of technology to try and improve on an idea, you end up being stuck if one aspect of that technology fails. A followspot is a simple device (initially). a light source that is manually operated to highlight a subject (for example). Your dilemma isn't, unfortunately, unique. As a long time followspot operator that has sat on a light thinking how great it would be to have a helmet operated sighting system with servo-driven pan/tilt and console operated color (and also now working for a manufacturer that offers a followspot with full color mixing, but that is another story), all of those things are technologically possible...but also probably not going to happen as a full release product. there are some products out there that use existing technology to make a mover into a followspot (the autopilot system from Wybron (?) was one, i would think that there are others...for your situation i would lean toward simpler is better. a lift rental with your existing unit. the extra money could easily go toward other aspects of the show. Or you could build something that totally changes the way people thing abou followspots...who knows?


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## SHARYNF (Dec 2, 2009)

The problem most schools have is they will freakout having a student up on more than a single layer of scaffolding or up in the air on man lift.

So folks will continue to dream and improvise

Sharyn


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## cdub260 (Dec 2, 2009)

mstaylor said:


> The scissor lift or single man lift neither requires fall protection. You can use it but it isn't required. Now if you have more pipe scaffold you could use the single man lift to access it but you would have to have some type of fall protection to make the transfer. Something similar to an arrestor used on a wire rope ladder would work. You would have to have a trained rigger install the arrest equipment.



In regards to whether or not fall protection is required on a lift, it depends on the type of lift.

I pulled this off the OSHA website.

> Question 1: What OSHA standards (the aerial lift requirements in §1926.453 or the mobile scaffold requirements in §1926.452(w)) apply to standard vertical manlifts, such as scissors lifts and "Genie lifts"?
> 
> How to determine when the aerial lift requirements apply
> The aerial lift requirements (§1926.453) incorporate by reference the definition of aerial lifts used in the American National Standards Institute (ANSI) A92.2-1969 standard. Therefore, these requirements apply to equipment identified in that 1969 ANSI consensus standard as aerial lifts. The ANSI standard definition includes certain vehicle-mounted elevating and rotating work platforms, namely "extensible boom platforms," "aerial ladders," "articulating boom platforms," "vertical towers," and "a combination of any of the above."
> ...



Based on the above, a standard Genie AWP lift would be considered an aerial platform and therefore requires fall protection.

Here are a few of the more pertinent regulations for our industry regarding aerial lifts.

> 1926.453(b)(2)(iii)
> 
> Belting off to an adjacent pole, structure, or equipment while working from an aerial lift shall not be permitted.
> 
> ...



A scissor lift would be considered a mobile scaffold so the guard rail would be considered the fall protection system.

Here are a few of the more pertinent regulations for our industry regarding scaffolding.

> 1926.451(g)
> 
> "Fall protection."
> 
> ...



The OSHA regulations governing aerial lifts can be found here.
Aerial lifts. - 1926.453

The OSHA regulations governing scaffolds can be found here.
General requirements. - 1926.451

Just one final note on the use of PPE for fall protection. Whether or not you are required to use it by OSHA regulations, it's still a good idea. Also, if the manufacturer of the lift in question recommends the use of fall arrest equipment, you should use it.


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## SHARYNF (Dec 2, 2009)

Now you see why I tend to jury rig a ML to do the job in these situations
Sharyn


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## DMahalko (Dec 2, 2009)

Thanks for the OSHA links. However, there is one snag with regard to those regulations. They say "the employee will..."

Um, these are not employees. They are students. So how do those rules apply to students?

,

I have yet to determine how age should factor into the use of fall protection and scissor lifts.

It is probably safe to assume someone aged 18 and older can be given fall arrest training and be permitted to go up on the lift. They can go to war and die for our country, so I suppose we could allow them to perch 25 feet above the gym floor too.

But what about a 16 year old student? 

Where exactly should the cutoff point be for "too young to be doing this sort of thing"?

,

Also I note someone mentioned that a "professional rigger" would need to set up safety lines etc. So where do you find those kinds of people? I just googled for *fall arrest rigger WI *on google and came up with nothing specific.

Plenty of fall arrest equipment for sale, but no obvious guidance for local training on how to use it correctly.

- Dale Mahalko


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## shiben (Dec 2, 2009)

Contact whoever you buy your theater stuff from and ask them for a name of someone who is qualified to do this type of work. I would imagine that they either employ someone, or would be able to hook you up with someone who is able to. Now, I really liked the idea of a source 4 on a stick in the lift, if you can do that. 

As for the color changing follow spot thing, I have seen more and more concerts coming through with MLs with the Pan/Tilt system removed and a pair of handles mounted on them. They do color mixing, gobos, iris, etc, all from the console, maybe even in cues, i dont know. This is probably the only type of ML one can really qualify as "intelligent"


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## mstaylor (Dec 2, 2009)

I too like the idea of a source four on the lift as a possible solution. It is the lowest tech and cheapest solution. It isn't perfect but certainly doable. I also see a lot of ML with the pan/tilt disabled, it is a good solution but out of most schools resources. 
As far as finding a rigger, your theatre supplier is an option, calling your closest AI local is another or check with any local arena or theatre and they should somebody qualified. 
After reading all the OSHA stuff I stand by my original statement that the scissor lifts and vertical one man lifts neither require PPE. I just didn't add the caveat that the handrails must be in place. Most scissor lifts have the option to drop the rails and if so then fall protection is needed.


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## lieperjp (Dec 2, 2009)

DMahalko said:


> Also I note someone mentioned that a "professional rigger" would need to set up safety lines etc. So where do you find those kinds of people? I just googled for *fall arrest rigger WI *on google and came up with nothing specific.
> 
> Plenty of fall arrest equipment for sale, but no obvious guidance for local training on how to use it correctly.
> 
> - Dale Mahalko



Google Mainstage Theatrical Supply in Milwaukee... I'm only saying that because I've worked with them before. I know you're in northwest WI so they may not be able to help you themselves but they may be able to suggest someone closer to you (Duluth would probably be the most likely, or Green Bay.) Perhaps someone in the Duluth area could help with a suggestion?


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## jwl868 (Dec 2, 2009)

DMahalko said:


> Thanks for the OSHA links. However, there is one snag with regard to those regulations. They say "the employee will..."
> 
> Um, these are not employees. They are students. So how do those rules apply to students?



The US OSHA regulations apply to private industry employers and their employees. Strictly speaking, OSHA has no authority over students (or volunteers). A consideration in your case is that OSHA does not apply to public employees. Some state OSH agencies do include public employees, but Wisconsin does not appear to be one of them (See the OSHA website and click State Programs on the right). (Most federal agencies use OSHA.)

But even though one is not under the authority of US OSHA, one can still use their regulations.

Joe


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## shiben (Dec 2, 2009)

jwl868 said:


> The US OSHA regulations apply to private industry employers and their employees. Strictly speaking, OSHA has no authority over students (or volunteers). A consideration in your case is that OSHA does not apply to public employees. Some state OSH agencies do include public employees, but Wisconsin does not appear to be one of them (See the OSHA website and click State Programs on the right). (Most federal agencies use OSHA.)
> 
> But even though one is not under the authority of US OSHA, one can still use their regulations.
> 
> Joe



I think that the general consensus that OSHA is a good place to look to make house regulations, mainly because thats their job to figure out how to avoid accidents. Yeah, you might not be required to follow them by law, but why not follow them anyhow? Better safe than sorry!


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## cprted (Dec 2, 2009)

DMahalko said:


> Thanks for the OSHA links. However, there is one snag with regard to those regulations. They say "the employee will..."
> 
> Um, these are not employees. They are students. So how do those rules apply to students?


Just because OSHA doesn't apply, doesn't mean you should be allowing students to operate outside of what OSHA considers safe practice. Those rules are in place for a reason.


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## cdub260 (Dec 3, 2009)

jwl868 said:


> The US OSHA regulations apply to private industry employers and their employees. Strictly speaking, OSHA has no authority over students (or volunteers). A consideration in your case is that OSHA does not apply to public employees. Some state OSH agencies do include public employees, but Wisconsin does not appear to be one of them (See the OSHA website and click State Programs on the right). (Most federal agencies use OSHA.)
> 
> But even though one is not under the authority of US OSHA, one can still use their regulations.
> 
> Joe



True enough, but bear in mind that these regulations are considered to be accepted standards for the proper use of lifts and will likely be referenced in the lawsuit that follows the accident. Also, I wouldn't be at all surprised if the school district has policies in place that specify that students, volunteers, staff and faculty will follow proper safety procedures, even if those proper procedures aren't specified.


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## SHARYNF (Dec 3, 2009)

In my experience if there is an accident it does not matter if you followed the rules or not you are going to get sued. reason is that the insurance company that is supposed to pay will automatically not pay, and will force the injured party to sue. Sad to say but fact is the US does not have JUSTICE system it has a LEGAL system. If you expect to find truth and justice in the legal system, you are going to be very disappointed

It is because of this that most schools refuse to let any student on any lift etc, which is why I was suggesting that despite the fact that it certainly is not an ideal solution, some sort of remote control for a ML usually is needed.

Again it might vary by district but students especially in high school on scaffolds or lifts is problematic no matter how well the OSHA rules are followed.
Sharyn


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## Kelite (Dec 3, 2009)

Wow- it looks as though the possible choices fall among two distinct options:

1) Getting the existing followspot much higher, which has its own collection of challenges-

2) Mounting either a moving light or a 750W S4 type fixture to a moving yoke at the ceiling level. A cage of sorts often solves basketball/volleyball damage and is close enough to the fixture as to not interfere with the light beam.


I may have missed the info from your original post, but what is the ceiling height in the space?


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## DMahalko (Dec 3, 2009)

Yes, the liability issues of having students up on a scissor lift is definitely the biggest problem. There would probably have to be multiple levels of consent before students would be allowed to formally participate in lift-access in the theater program.
parent or guardian consent
maintenance staff consent
district administrator consent
school board consent
If lift-platform access privileges were to be a formal part of the theater program, some sort of rules and policies would need to be written for the student handbook. I would expect that there would have to be extremely strict behavior rules for students on or near the lift platform:

No goofing off - no pushing, shoving, or intentional destabilizing of a raised lift with someone on it "as a joke".
No intetional pushing or fighting with other students near the base of the lift.
No showing off - no "look at me" acrobatic stunts such as standing on or balancing on the handrails, or doing handstands on the rails
No leaning over the handrails for any reason. If the lift must be moved to reach something then that is what will be done. (Many scissor lifts can be safely moved in the raised position anyway.)
No intentional dropping or throwing of objects from the lift platform, such as pens, pencils, coins, books, basketballs
No intentional swaying/rocking of lift
No eating or drinking while on lift
Must have adult supervision present at all times. If a lone adult supervisor must leave the area for any reason, students must disembark and stay off the lift.
Must receive safety training, explanation of rules, and must pass a graded essay-format test before being permitted to work on the lift platform.
Due to the risk for lawsuits from injuries and the potential for damage to lift equipment and the building itself, I think that it would have to be made very clear to the students that we are making a special exception by permitting them to work on or near the lift platform. 

Any intentional unsafe activities could result in immediate suspension of height-access privileges and probably also school disciplinary action, if the situation is severe enough. 

Irony, rebellion, and doing stuff against the rules behind the backs of adults is very popular amongst high school students, but "I was only joking" can never be an excuse for doing something risky on a lift platform. The liability and risk of injury from unsafe behaviors is too high to joke about it.

,

In this discussion of allowing students to be way up high on lifts, I would assume that there are similar issues with students working on lighting catwalks and balconies that just have an open tubular handrail.

So how do high schools with auditoriums handle that? What kind of safety and disciplinary policies do they have to deal with the issues of students working on catwalks?

Are there any existing student "working at heights" safety policies that anyone can link to as examples?

,

For me, this is very much a theoretical discussion. I doubt permission for this could get off the ground without a very formal safety plan, with example rules and regulations written up in advance, to present to the school board. Discussion of potentially permitting this activity would most likely end up printed in the local newspaper in the board minutes.

In light of all the formalities of needing to win community and board support for even allowing this, the remote-control ground-steerable followspot seems to me to be a heck of a lot simpler option. 

- Dale Mahalko


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## Kelite (Dec 3, 2009)

Then I would submit the Right Arm as an affordable means to position a fixture above the crowd in a caged environment. (Not the 'crowd in a caged environment', however  )

This approach has been successfully solved by Apollo dealer Chicago Spotlight with an 'off the shelf' Right Arm cage for this specific purpose. 

Info may be obtained by speaking with Marty of Chicago Spotlight @ (312)455-1171.


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## Footer (Dec 3, 2009)

When I was teaching in a Performing Arts High School we had both a vertical man lift and a scissor lift. Before any of the students used either lift we went though common safety stuff like how to get someone down if they lose power or are injured. I had on incedent of kids goofing off in our genie lift and I did not see that student for 2 weeks after the incedent. They enjoyed their time in in school suspension reading boring text books. 

High school students are capable of being in lifts. If you trust your students with saws, you can trust them with a lift.


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## jwl868 (Dec 3, 2009)

Regarding student capabilities, I agree with Footer. We rented a high school for a show and they typically kept their upstage traveler curtains permanently closed with a zip tie up at the rail. I wanted to be able to open and close the traveler, and I asked the high school’s TD if it could be untied. He said sure, and soon after a couple students brought in the scissors lift went up and unclipped it. 

Joe


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## PeteEngel (Dec 3, 2009)

or...in lieu of theatrical resources, you could either get an adult volunteer or pay for a stagehand...it doesn't really help teach operation to the kids, but it does bypass the need for A: all the consent and training required and 2: potentially expensive technical modifications and training/maintenace, etc...


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## mstaylor (Dec 3, 2009)

I am a firm believer in letting kids do as much as they can. This different for different kids and need to handled on a case by case basis. Some kids should never be allowed to handle power tools or lifts because they just aren't mature enough. Others are perfectly capable and should be given as mush responsibility as possible. I have five high schools in my imediate area and they range from not allowing the kids to touch anything light board or sound board wise. Others have completely student run theatres. One school that has a no touch policy is next door to my house which my son attended. When he was going to do a senior class play they said they needed to hire a professional lighting tech because they weren't allowed. I had to go in and be "certified' by the county to run the board. After 5 minutes of instruction, I started showing my instructor some shortcuts that she didn't know. I promptly allowed my son run the show. 
Now, in respect to lifts, ANYBODY, student or adult must be instructed in the safe use of a lift. I am a lift and forklift instructor. I have adult stagehands that I would never let near a lift. My 21 yr old and 16 yr old are both certified on lifts. I haven't let either one cert on fork yet. My older son is one of my riggers and both are experienced in climbing Mountain stages. If I don't think a kid can handle a job, I don't teach him. 
Do schools that don't allow kids in lifts, can they climb ladders?


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