# Taping Breakers



## Hughesie (Oct 5, 2008)

Recently i worked out that something that is common place at a place where i work is infact increasingly stupid.

Have a switchpanel substation for the "sound" power outlets so at the end of the night instead of crawling under our sound riser we can just turn off the amps and flick these switches, as this power is the most reliable (due to being grounded in venue to remove hum issues) our security system also runs off it so when someone mistakenly turns off all the breakers our security system dies. To combat this someone decided to tape over the breaker to stop people turning it off.

This is amazingly stupid but i wonder how many other places this happens at, does anyone know why this is so bad bad.


p.s im looking at our more junior members as our senior members are well experienced in the reasons why this is bad.


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## slimrocktwo (Oct 5, 2008)

If there was a short somewhere in the line, the breaker wouldn't trip because it's taped in the on position, which could then lead to equipment damage & fire, right?


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## seanandkate (Oct 5, 2008)

Even if there WASN'T a short it would be increadibly stupid. The breaker limits the electrical load that can be put on that circuit. Think of it as a shear pin on something mechanical. If too much load is put on, say, my snowblower (yea, that's right, I'm Canadian), the shear pin snaps instead of my engine blowing up. A circuit breaker taped in the on position will LET you overload that circuit. That is until the wires between the circuit and the load heat up, cause a fire, burn the place down, etc., and generally wreaking Darwinian revenge on the people who taped the breakers up in the first place.


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## Sony (Oct 5, 2008)

Actually, taping the circuit breaker is fine...the inside mechanics of the circuit breaker let it trip even when being held in the ON position. If you notice how when a breaker trips it moves to the center position and not one side of the other. Now try moving that breaker from the center position directly to the ON position...it does NOTHING. In order to reset the breaker you have to turn it all the way to the OFF position and then back ON to reset the linkages on the inside of the breaker. It's a safety design feature, because they know it's a common practice for people to tape over breakers.

If you're truly worried about it then just tape it over with a small amount of Masking Tape or Painters Tape instead of Duct Tape or whatever you're using. Masking/Painters tape is in no way strong enough to keep a breaker from tripping.


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## derekleffew (Oct 5, 2008)

Sourced from: Circuit breaker - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



The design includes the following components: 

Actuator lever - used to manually trip and reset the circuit breaker. Also indicates the status of the circuit breaker (On or Off/tripped). *Most breakers are designed so they can still trip even if the lever is held or locked in the "on" position.* This is sometimes referred to as "free trip" or "positive trip" operation.
Actuator mechanism - forces the contacts together or apart.
Contacts - Allow current when touching and break the current when moved apart.
Terminals
Bimetallic strip
Calibration screw - allows the manufacturer to precisely adjust the trip current of the device after assembly.
Solenoid
Arc divider / extinguisher
I'm not in any manner condoning the practice, but it may not be as unsafe as one thinks. 

Perhaps more dangerous is the practice of using the circuit breaker as a switch, solely for convenience: "instead of crawling under our sound riser we can just turn off the amps and flick these switches." It appears someone needs to learn the difference between a circuit breaker and a switch, and why they are not interchangeable terms or devices. See this post.


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## cdub260 (Oct 5, 2008)

Assuming of course, that breakers in Australia are the same as in the U.S., you can mark a breaker by putting a colored zip tie through the hole in the hole in the breaker handle. Unlike tape, this will not defeat the tripping capability of your circuit breaker.

That said, a circuit breaker should never be used as a switch. Its intended use is as an over-current protection device. Using it as a switch can, over time, inhibit the proper functioning of the breaker, eventually creating a serious safety issue. I have similar issues in my 60 year old amphitheatre, which, hopefully, I'll eventually get permission to deal with. So far, the powers that be have taken an attitude of of "if it aint broke, don't fix it." 

That brings to mind a question. How do I convince the management of my company that this is an issue that needs to be addressed?


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## Hughesie (Oct 5, 2008)

cdub260 said:


> That brings to mind a question. How do I convince the management of my company that this is an issue that needs to be addressed?



Sit them down and make them watch a csi episode where the breakers don't trip and the person dies


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## lieperjp (Oct 5, 2008)

derekleffew said:


> I'm not in any manner condoning the practice, but it may not be as unsafe as one thinks.
> 
> Perhaps more dangerous is the practice of using the circuit breaker as a switch, solely for convenience: "instead of crawling under our sound riser we can just turn off the amps and flick these switches." It appears someone needs to learn the difference between a circuit breaker and a switch, and why they are not interchangeable terms or devices. See this post.



Also, I would think that if a breaker is loosely taped, or taped with a "stretchable" tape (such as e-tape) the switch would still be able to function. I've also seen it where people put brightly colored tape (red e-tape comes to mind) over the non-switch part of the breaker, or next to the breaker on the metal portion of the panel. That way, they are still marked.


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## Pip (Oct 6, 2008)

In my opinion, regardless of how the breaker works or if the switch itself is involved, I still don't like the idea of in ANY way interfering with what is in place to keep you safe.

If there was any failure or overload that would normally cause the circuit breaker to trip, and the tape somehow, even though you say it's not possible, caused that safety mechanism to fail, you're potentially risking peoples LIVES.

I'd say tape a piece of paper above it that hangs over the breaker that says "don't flip this switch" or whatever.


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## Chris15 (Oct 6, 2008)

Dude, NOTHING wrong with taping a breaker on. They make devices for things like security systems that allow you to LOCK the breaker on (probably the same things used for lock out). BUT this falls over in the case of a three phase joined breaker, as it relies on the movement of the toggle to cut off the other phases.

What brand are the breakers?

If the long term view is to keep killing the main power, then get a contactor installed to do it without killing off your breakers...

But I've been working for a couple of weeks in broadcast land and power down is called walk to switchboard and flick breakers...

This gets done week in week out and so far nothing has failed. What it would mean is that the breakers would trip more easily. This should technically be safer but rather awkward if it goes down in the middle of a live broadcast...


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## Hughesie (Oct 6, 2008)

Here is the image of the switchboard in question


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## Chris15 (Oct 6, 2008)

Email Westinghouse it looks like. Simplest answer would be to have the alarm breaker moved to position number 12 with the 2 spaces between sound and it. Or do the smart thing and get it put onto dirty power so it doesn't run the risk of bring hum into the audio power they went to the effort of having put in...


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## Hughesie (Oct 6, 2008)

Well despite being in our theatre its our IT departments problem and i happen to know that is also our mail server . Last time we turned it off bad things happened, so we won't be changing anything that involves us turning it off for at least 12 weeks.

btw i took that picture today and promptly moved the tape and markered the breaker as "do not turn off"


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## Chris15 (Oct 6, 2008)

Hughesie89 said:


> Well despite being in our theatre its our IT departments problem and i happen to know that is also our mail server .



Issue number one... Get the server room on dedicated breakers...


Hughesie89 said:


> Last time we turned it off bad things happened, so we won't be changing anything that involves us turning it off for at least 12 weeks.



UPS...


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## Hughesie (Oct 6, 2008)

This is the rack in question


The evil piece of computer hardware im talking about is at the top .


It has a ups which gives us a really nice buzz when its operating


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## Pip (Oct 6, 2008)

Chris15 said:


> Dude, NOTHING wrong with taping a breaker on. They make devices for things like security systems that allow you to LOCK the breaker on (probably the same things used for lock out). BUT this falls over in the case of a three phase joined breaker, as it relies on the movement of the toggle to cut off the other phases.
> 
> What brand are the breakers?
> 
> ...



Haha good point...


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## midgetgreen11 (Oct 6, 2008)

There are a number of breakers on our dimmer rack that have been masking-taped in the "on" position... I'm not quite sure why...


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## Sayen (Oct 7, 2008)

If I'm reading this right, it sounds like my first classroom. When I moved in I had to use the breaker panel to turn the lights on and off, but that also included necessary electrics and the heating/cooling for the building. Several switches were taped over. The easy solution was to pay an electrician to install switches outside of the panel for lights and what have you, and then leave the breakers untampered with. For a permanent installation I don't think I'd want to be playing with breakers or relying on tape for an extended period of time.


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## Eboy87 (Oct 9, 2008)

Dude, if you have a mail server in your audio rack with a dirty UPS, I'd say you have a few more issues than people taping over breakers.

As for taping over breakers, the things are designed to trip, whether held closed or not. Has anyone seen the high voltage switches where the lever can be padlocked in the "on" position? We have a few in the scene shop that'll trip even though they're padlocked (that was a bad day, the one that tripped was the A/C, and it was summertime in St. Louis). Our worklights are controlled by a Rosco panel with the pretty green/red buttons to turn them on and off. I assume it works by a relay, and one of them is shot, so if we want to turn off the upstage work lights, I have to flip a breaker. It's been like that for four years, and while I'm not condoning the practice, nothing bad has happened so far. Still, I generally hate touching anything in a breaker panel, including the breakers themselves (I have a thing about not being electrocuted; it makes my day go so much better).


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## philhaney (Oct 16, 2008)

We use breaker locks at the store where I work that we purchased at our local hardware store. They look like the one in the picture, except they have a screw, where the arrow is, to hold them onto the breaker lever. 



The breakers still trip when overloaded just fine (no this doesn't happen often). I just loosen the screw, remove the lock, reset the breaker, and reapply the lock.

*Please note: These locks will fit on the breaker either way, so they can also be used on a breaker you don't want turned on (NOT as a safety lockout! Just for convenience).*


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## willbb123 (Oct 29, 2008)

Eboy87 said:


> Dude, if you have a mail server in your audio rack with a dirty UPS, I'd say you have a few more issues than people taping over breakers.
> 
> As for taping over breakers, the things are designed to trip, whether held closed or not. Has anyone seen the high voltage switches where the lever can be padlocked in the "on" position?



On the switch panels that I have seen (I also work in the electrical department in a hardware store) the psychical switch is just a switch. When in the on position the switch moves and connects the terminals. Not all those boxes have fuses in them. In the event of an overload in a fused box, the fuse blows requiring the fuse to be replaced, having no effect on the handle.

I wouldnt tape over a breaker ever... It will probably will still flip, but I dont want to take that chance. Ive put tape next to the breaker and said do not flip. Or painted red on or by the breaker that can not be flipped. Personally I have never used a lock.


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## philhaney (Oct 29, 2008)

Eboy87 said:


> Has anyone seen the high voltage switches where the lever can be padlocked in the "on" position?




willbb123 said:


> On the switch panels that I have seen ... the psychical switch is just a switch. When in the on position the switch moves and connects the terminals. Not all those boxes have fuses in them. In the event of an overload in a fused box, the fuse blows requiring the fuse to be replaced, having no effect on the handle. ... Personally I have never used a lock.



Here you go:




Note: The breaker is locked on (if you put a lock in the handle shaped area). Breakers are designed so you can lock them on to prevent accidental (or on-purposefull) tripping during a critical moment (like your show), but will still trip if an overload condition occurs.


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## willbb123 (Oct 29, 2008)

philhaney said:


> Here you go:
> 
> 
> 
> Note: The breaker is locked on (if you put a lock in the handle shaped area). Breakers are designed so you can lock them on to prevent accidental (or on-purposefull) tripping during a critical moment (like your show), but will still trip if an overload condition occurs.



Huh I have never seen one like that, and we stock alot of C-H. 

When I read his post I was thinking about a swich box like this.


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## TimMiller (Nov 1, 2008)

The cuttler hammer and others that can be locked on are fairly common on switch boards so that you can lock on emergency loads (you dont want anyone to accidently turn off your generator power in a hospital) Or to lock them off, for Lock Out Tag Out.


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## tjrobb (Jul 4, 2009)

Sorry to necro-post, but I have a couple comments.

First, if you are worried, tape it only half-way. IE, let the breaker move towards the TRIP setting, but not the other way. This let you label the breaker, have a visual reminder, and not worry about it tripping properly. I do this with our fire alarm breaker at the temporary theatre.

Second, most 15A and 20A single-pole breakers are rated SWD (they will have a label). This means they are designed to switch fluorescent lighting loads. While this doesn't allay all fears, know that they are rated for it.


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## MNicolai (Jul 4, 2009)

It doesn't matter how it is labeled or taped. Circuit breakers are designed to fail in the "ON" position. They do not need to move to trip to open the circuit. There are even small metal bands you can purchase that slip over the breaker handle which can ne tightened via a small screw. These are commonly used on emergency lighting circuits and life-dependent loads. It's very acceptable to use these to ensure circuits are kept live provided they are not overloaded and subsequently tripped.


However, I have to put my three cents in from an organizational standpoint, which is that nothing isore irritating than going into a panel to find a bunch if breakers taped like they may or may not be important. I would advise a clean, legible labeling system be used that does not provide any confusion to someone when they open the panel for servicing or operation.

Taping or locking circuit breakers will not bring harm to a system, but it may bring unnecessary confusion to those using or examining it, and should be a practice used sparingly and appropriately.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Dionysus (Jul 6, 2009)

And in comes the ELECTRICIAN to answer the question for once and for all...

First, some people brought up the "boxes with levers that can be locked up or down". THESE ARE NOT BREAKERS! These are knife switches with FUSES inside, one for each phase. If the handle is still up, (thus the knife switch closed) the circuit can still open (in part or in whole). When the fuses go, the handle DOES NOT MOVE. Hopefully there is an interlock in place in many of these situations to "open" the other phases, to prevent things from still operating and causing damage. Not always the case.

SECOND, there are many types of breakers. SOME are designed to still trip with the handle "locked" on. This is a common practise for things like fire-alarm systems where you don't want them turned off accidentally. This is completely legal, IF the breakers are designed in this way.
You can buy locks for these panelboards (breaker boxes, etc) that are designed for this purpose. Note that some of these are designed so that the breaker handle can still reach the "tripped" position, and others are not.
SOME breakers are designed so they STAY ON when the handle is "locked on", it is illegal to lock these on.

THIRD, in general most tape will still give way to the breaker to move to the "tripped" position.

It should be re-iterated that these breakers, may or may-not be designed to be "switched" on a regular basis. Many breakers actually degrade over time when you keep switching them off regularly. These breakers are meant for OVERCURRENT PROTECTION and as a DISCONNECTING MEANS, not as a regular switch. If you are using them often to turn something on-and-off every day you should think about hiring an electrician to come in and install an appropriate switch(es), in a more convenient place even to use most of the time.


And yes the breaker locks can also be installed to lock a circuit breaker "off" as a safety precaution (In Canada at least you MUST use a "lockout tag" that clearly says that it should not be turned on, etc). This is also not for a circuit that is no-longer "installed". The breaker should be REMOVED. I've seen people do that before.


Anyways, so as long as these breakers are designed to still trip when mechanically interfered with, it's all good. However It's probably just as good idea to install another method for power-down or just to clearly label the ones to stay on.


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## MillburyAuditorium (Aug 17, 2009)

I'm not even that dumb :/

Our "sound box" or rack as we call it with our two amps is located backstage near the dimmers, we just plug in our Snake at the beggining of the season, run the snake back to the board, and when speakers are needed just turn both amps on.

It took us an hour to figure out why no sound was coming out of the speakers even though they were on, someone decided, oh, instead of turning the amps off, we will just turn the volume down :/

Im sick of people messing up our EQ xD


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## ship (Aug 17, 2009)

There is lockout breakers available especially for safety lighting on the market, work well and as said the breaker would still work even if not able to manually shut off. On the other hand I don't think I would install such a thing as it removes part B' as it were from having a circuit breaker/switch out of safety reasons. Should there be a problem you wll no longer be able to trip the breaker manually. The circuit breakers are also not switches and while you can use them as such they do wear out faster than a switch in tripping or not turning on more easily when used as a switch after time. Instead of turning off the breakers you should have for the sound a relay switch and panel installed so as to turn off the power to the sound gear. Simple done and only one button to push if not a few remote locations that could activate the sound power.

The other option is as per our main breaker panels that also have the overhead lighting is to use tape along the sides of the panel where the number of the breakers is imprinted on the face panel to the panel. Some tape with label marked "Sound" and or "do not turn off" without on the breakers is easy enough to read and comply with. This in addition to a system of tracking who has the guns as it were in shutting down the system for the night. Our's is computer tracked in lockup but a sheet to fill out is tremendously useful to sign when closing up and complying with the lockup list of things to do at the end of the night. Checking doors shutting down certain lights etc. Heck, even putting out the ghost light for the night and closing the fire curtain if not a spare lamp for the ghost light located in the stage manager's podium.


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