# Pinspots - effectiveness



## cvanp (Jan 3, 2008)

Hey all,

At the end of one of the songs in our show we want to have a full-on blackout and have beams of light shining. The scene takes place in a sewer so the idea will be that light is creeping in from the world above. This is the kind of thing I'm looking to do: http://www.hmmagazine.com/reviews/dvd/TSO lights.gif - those really narrow beams of light are exactly what I want.

Currently the top candidate is this Chauvet Pinspot. The way the light is described, it seems to do exactly what I need - it provides a focused, narrow beam of light - the problem is it's only a $20 light, and by looks alone it appears that there will be a great deal of wash.

So I guess my question is.. are pinspots like this really that effective? I need a good amount of distance... we're clamping them to a bar so something like 18 feet away... are they capable without too much wash? Also, does this look like something that would work or are there any other (non-DMX) lights that could provide a similar function?

Thanks again everyone


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## gafftapegreenia (Jan 3, 2008)

Pin spots would work nicely. Beam Projectors would provide a larger beam, but might be more expensive/harder to find. Possibly some ERS's with gobos could work too.


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## SerraAva (Jan 3, 2008)

What else are you using in your show? 30w pin spots won't seem powerful if the rest of your show is 1000w par 64s or 575w S4 pars. 

You can also try using irises on movers and make them as small as possible. I have done that before to great effect. Problem with the irises is that you block a lot of light and lose intensity. Hole pattern gobos in ERS's like gafftapegreenia would also work well.


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## cvanp (Jan 3, 2008)

We're poor though. :-/ Plus as I've mentioned in the past our situation is crappy so we have to go with as simple a solution as possible.


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## RiffRaff54 (Jan 3, 2008)

I'm going with the idea of gobos with a bunch of holes in them.


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## cvanp (Jan 3, 2008)

If we had more lights that would be a viable option too, but here's what we're dealing with....




As you can see we really have almost no lights. If we had more, I would definitely want to throw on some gobos and use that option simply for the control we would have. Unfortunately, I'm afraid we're going to have a tough enough time lighting with the few lights we have now!

That's the primary reason I want to go with separate lamps for this, and particularly something not DMX controlled. It is by no means the best situation but that seems to be our best solution.


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## Charc (Jan 3, 2008)

cvanp said:


> If we had more lights that would be a viable option too, but here's what we're dealing with....View attachment 879
> 
> As you can see we really have almost no lights. If we had more, I would definitely want to throw on some gobos and use that option simply for the control we would have. Unfortunately, I'm afraid we're going to have a tough enough time lighting with the few lights we have now!
> That's the primary reason I want to go with separate lamps for this, and particularly something not DMX controlled. It is by no means the best situation but that seems to be our best solution.



Do you even have any available circuits?


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## gafftaper (Jan 3, 2008)

First you won't see the shaft of light like that without particles in the air for the light to reflect off of... thus you need to start this project by getting a hazer. It'll probably cost you $100 to rent a hazer and buy fluid for a week's run. Haze is designed to stick around a while. So be prepared to have haze on stage for another 20 minutes or so. Then there's the smoke detector issue to be considered with haze. 

I would say that Serraava nailed it on the head with the next problem. Little 30 watt pins will work, but will be quite dim looking if the audience has been looking at a full wash from the rest of your gear. I would spend that money renting a few extra Source fours with 50 degree lenses. Experiment with making your own pin hole gobos out of pie pans, try different sizes of holes. You should be able to rent them for around $30 a week. Place them at odd angles with long cross stage throws should work fine.

This solution will still be dimmer than what you see in that picture but it should give the idea you are looking for. Those beams in the picture you showed are being created by very expensive moving lights and it's a difficult effect to duplicate. 

One final option would be to rent a bunch of 5 degree Source Fours. This would be a great way to duplicate that effect. You could put a home made circle gobo in to reduce the size of the light further if you wanted... but they cost more than the standard S4's to rent so we are probably talking $40 per week per shaft of light. But it would be a really nice bright effect.

EDIT: What about renting a basic laser?


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## sound_nerd (Jan 3, 2008)

Go with pinspots. I did a mock-acl setup in a nightclub using a bunch of pin spots, and they work rather well. You'll find they're not too bright but it's a good buy on a budget and effective none the less.


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## Charc (Jan 3, 2008)

given the effect I'm picturing I would think either a 36º or 50º (depending on throw) with a hard polygonal breakup would complement the effect quite nicely. While fog sucks for this effect, it's cheaper, and likely won't fill up the whole space. You will likely have less of an issue with smoke detectors too (unless you're shooting straight into one.) you can try and breakup the fog a little bit with a fan or something. Is it possible to incorporate this in to the "sewer" look, as a scenic element? Low RPM fan, with a trickle of fog coming through? However, you did mention it would be a full blackout, except for this effect light, so perhaps you wouldn't even need to disguise where your fog is coming from. (It would just be a little unexplainable.) Those are my thoughts on the matter.


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## cvanp (Jan 3, 2008)

We're definitely planning on fog. That's a very big part of the design for the scene. We probably won't go with haze because it's slow to dissipate but just use fog with some fans.

I have access to a few Source Fours (well, I think. I would have to clear it in advance) but the problem is going to be finding the space for the lights, particularly since we have no available circuits to control them through DMX.

I think I'm going to get a pin light just to see how it looks. I know it won't be as bright, but I'm wondering if that will really matter for the effect, especially when the stage will be totally black. I'm not trying to light any people in particular, it's only the beam that I am going for. If the pin light can serve that purpose than I'll be probably go that route.


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## gafftaper (Jan 3, 2008)

I just double checked the prices at my local dealer. They charge $60-$72 for a week rental of a decent fogger (Rosco 1500 $60 or F-100 $72). They charge $120-$150 for a decent hazer (lemaitre $120, Unique $150)... that price does not include juice. In past discussions I've found my local prices to be a little higher than other parts of the country. If I remember right you are in New York... which may mean more competition and better prices on rentals.


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## gafftapegreenia (Jan 3, 2008)

I've never used them, but maybe the others can help me out, what about ACL's?


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## avkid (Jan 3, 2008)

gafftapegreenia said:


> I've never used them, but maybe the others can help me out, what about ACL's?


They burn out quite fast if I recall.


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## icewolf08 (Jan 3, 2008)

gafftapegreenia said:


> I've never used them, but maybe the others can help me out, what about ACL's?


I was going to suggest ACLs, they will give a nice narrow beam that looks really nice through haze. They are also really bright. The biggest issue with them is that they are 28v lamps so you need to wire 4 in series to one circuit. This is a relatively easy thing to do if you own PAR Cans already. The other option is to hook up a 24v transformer to each lamp. I suggest 24v transformers because they are usually easier to find than a 28v transformer.


avkid said:


> They burn out quite fast if I recall.


The average lamp life for the GE #4553 and #4552 is 25 hrs. Yes, this is short, but since they are usually only used for effects (in theatre) this is plenty long enough. Generally they are only on for very brief moments.


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## cvanp (Jan 3, 2008)

Pardon my ignorance... what's an ACL (what does it stand for)?

edit: icewolf08: so because of the ACL design I would need to have 4 wired together? So if, say, I wanted 3, that wouldn't work? (I want 4 really, maybe even 8, but I'm curious.)


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## Brilliant2007 (Jan 3, 2008)

My vote would be source fours with a gobo. You could put four across evenly spaced across the pipe...get the right gobo, something with bars or a grate and it will look like light coming through a sewer grate. Need to have the haze to see it. Can you spare one circuit?? You could two-fer all four instruments into one circuit (only if you are lamping them with 575s) and you are good to go! Can't spare a circuit?...twofer them up still, get an edison adapter, run the line to the ground and have a deck elec plug it into a 20amp wall circuit on the ground for the scene, you won't have dimming control but it will work.

You can rent the four source fours, pattern holders, a DF 50 hazer, and the twofers for a total of $150 or less (in some markets) for a week. Four gobos...another $50 tops to purchase and ship. The whole deal for $200 or under...

Just my thought...


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## icewolf08 (Jan 3, 2008)

cvanp said:


> Pardon my ignorance... what's an ACL (what does it stand for)?


ACL=*A*ircraft *L*anding *L*ight

They are a type of PAR64.


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## icewolf08 (Jan 3, 2008)

cvanp said:


> Pardon my ignorance... what's an ACL (what does it stand for)?
> edit: icewolf08: so because of the ACL design I would need to have 4 wired together? So if, say, I wanted 3, that wouldn't work? (I want 4 really, maybe even 8, but I'm curious.)


That is correct. In theatrical use typical is to wire 4 in series. If you had less than 4 you would be way over voltage and they would just die. If you wanted fewer than 4 you would need to wire them to a transformer.


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## DarSax (Jan 3, 2008)

I'll also support the renting option, even if it's not source 4's (though that'd be best). If you opted to buy, after the show all you'd have are some pinspots that, while having some possible use at some time in the future MAYBE, would probably not benefit you all that much.

Looks like you have the space to hang, if not the circuits. Remember the problems with plugging lights directly in live circuits--the plug will probably arc, and there's of course danger of electrocution if you're really not careful. If you're only doing it once per show, you probably won't build up that much carbon, but it's still a frowned-upon practice.


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## SerraAva (Jan 3, 2008)

Seeing what you are working with, I think I would go with 50 or 70 degree Source Fours. With the 70s, you can do more, smaller holes per light. I think 90s would be far to large for your throw distance. You can also have them lamped 375w and put 5 on one 2400w circuit so your not wasting dimmers. A S4 at 375w is still going to be way more powerful then a bunch of 30w pin spots with a throw of 18' or so.

The problem with 70 degree lekos is that they are hard to come by. They are relatively new and the barrels themselves cost just about the same as a new S4 leko 19, 26, 36, or 50 would be for the whole fixture. I am actually making my local rental shop buy some 70s and 14s because I need those barrel sizes for an event next week to make sponsor gobos the sizes I need them. It can't hurt to see if your local shop has them.


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## Pie4Weebl (Jan 4, 2008)

I think a wider beam spread from one unit would look awkward, when you think about shafts of light they are all parallel, so acls would be a better option.


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## gafftaper (Jan 4, 2008)

I got some ACL lamps about a month ago and they run about $27 each then you have to have build/purchase something to hold them plus wire them up. Sounds like a lot more expensive. 

My vote is still for S4's with gobos. To upgrade Brilliant's idea you could run four 575W S4's to a power strip then into a single 20 amp circuit (with no other load on it). Then you just have to flip the switch on the power strip to turn them all on safely. I would make sure you are using a good quality power strip, not a $2.99 plastic special. But other than that it should be safe. If you don't have 20 amp circuits split them into 2 per 15 amp circuit. If you have 750 watt lamps split them into 2 per circuit. 

The problem with fog is it's going to be much more dense than haze. So pins would have a harder time penetrating the fog. You also need to blow it around really well. 

What's this for anyway? The jr. version of Les Miserables?


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## cvanp (Jan 4, 2008)

I'm getting a single pinspot to test (just to see for myself if it will work), but I think I'd like to try the ACLs too. The effect is going to be so short, literally less than five seconds per night, so I think renting Source Fours will just be too much for such a small effect. I'm still going to look into the price and all, but ultimately it just seems like I'm getting a massive light for a five second effect.

If I get ACLs though, do I just buy the bulb itself? I have a ton of DJ-level par cans lying around, would I just put the bulb into that and go from there if all the electric stuff checks out? Again it is a short effect so the short life doesn't concern me. We also have available wire and clamps so that really isn't a big deal either.

Thanks again everyone, I'm learning so much that I never would have been able to figure out on my own. This show is going to rock because of ControlBooth!

oh - Gafftaper - it's for a production of "Guys And Dolls". But it is going to be a very awesome production of Guys And Dolls, if I do say so myself.


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## dimwatt (Jan 4, 2008)

I wonder if using narrow spot (or very narrow) PARs would give the effect you are after at a relatively modest cost, especially if you have the cans available. These have a somewhat longer expected life than the ACLs, so you would have them available to use in the future too.
Something like a PAR56 narrow spot or PAR 64 depending on the can size and beam width required.


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## gafftaper (Jan 4, 2008)

dimwatt said:


> I wonder if using narrow spot (or very narrow) PARs would give the effect you are after at a relatively modest cost, especially if you have the cans available. These have a somewhat longer expected life than the ACLs, so you would have them available to use in the future too.
> Something like a PAR56 narrow spot or PAR 64 depending on the can size and beam width required.



Good call on the PAR cans if you used 500 watt lamps you could put four of them on the same 20 amp circuit through a power strip like we talked about before. Probably work just as well as the ACL's and it's cheaper than the Pins If you have the lamps already it's a free option. 

Math time: 
If the Pins are $20 you are going to pay around $25 with tax/shipping depending on the deal. The ACL's will cost you $25-$30 for the lamp plus a high amount of labor time to get them to work. PAR's are free if you have the right ones in stock If you don't then you are talking about $30 each for NSP PAR lamps. The Source fours will cost you a total of $30-$35 including tax for a week rental (depending on what the local price is). If we are talking about four lights then your price is about $100 for the Pins, $100-$120 for the ACLS, $120 for the PAR's, and $120-$140 for the S4's. For that little bit extra the S4's give you way more light than the pins, it's far less hassle than the ACL option, more concentrated than the PAR's. (I'm also not convinced the ACL's will give you the narrow beam you are looking for). Thus I say S4's, home made gobos, and a power strip. If you can get the S4's for free then hit a thrift store (Mom's old pan shelf) and get some metal pie pans/pizza pans (not the thin aluminum ones) and start making gobos for next to nothing.


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## cvanp (Jan 4, 2008)

Response from my local theatre supplier (Syracuse Scenery and Stage Lighting):


> We are an Altman ellipsoidal rental house. We do have the Shakespeare 50 units which rent for $14.00 per fixture per week.



Anyone familiar with any Albany-area rental houses that might have Source Fours? I'll be doing some research but if anyone knows of one that they've dealt with before that'd be helpful too.

Would Shakespeare 50s work for what I'm looking to do?

Thanks again


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## gafftaper (Jan 4, 2008)

There are plenty of us who hate Shakespeares but for the few seconds they will be on at only $14 each they would be just fine. You won't have them long enough to learn to hate them. Sounds like a great solution. Cheaper than the pins and more punch... what size lamps do they come with?


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## TupeloTechie (Jan 4, 2008)

yes, they both use "b" size gobos, and are both 50* beam angles, we have shakespeares at my school, and while not as great as a source four (there like source four in just about every aspect except for the lamp, not a hpl, so they're not as efficient) which might be a problem for your circuiting issues, they will accept a 575w lamp, but there not near the quality of a 575 hpl 

either way, they will both achieve the same effect


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## SerraAva (Jan 4, 2008)

Agreed gaff. Are S4 lekos really that much to rent in your area? I get them for about $13 a week with dount, gel frame, gobo holder, and on a base or with a clamp. Depending on order size, I might also get adpators thrown in for free as well. Didn't realize rental prices were that high else where.


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## RiffRaff54 (Jan 4, 2008)

SerraAva said:


> Didn't realize rental prices were that high else where.


Um, my local rental house is $20 for 19, 26, 36, and 50 degree S4, and the 5 and 10s are $30. And they come with a saftey cable, color frame, and a C-clamp and a spare lamp usually.


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## icewolf08 (Jan 4, 2008)

cvanp said:


> If I get ACLs though, do I just buy the bulb itself? I have a ton of DJ-level par cans lying around, would I just put the bulb into that and go from there if all the electric stuff checks out? Again it is a short effect so the short life doesn't concern me. We also have available wire and clamps so that really isn't a big deal either.


If you have available cans then you can just get the bulbs. You will have to strip off the mogul base bi-pin connector that the PARs use as ACL's don't use that, they just have screw terminals. You just need to figure out the best way to convert the wiring, depending on if you want to be able to convert them back later.


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## sound_nerd (Jan 4, 2008)

While the ACL's are a great idea for large shows (arenas and R&R concert spaces), I think they're too large for what you're asking. The ERS fixtures with a gobo might work, but no matter how wide the lens, you can still tell by the beam angles that it's coming from a 6" opening. 
The pins should work fine, here's a picture from a recent concert I did. The rest of the rig was 48kW of PAR64's, and 12 MAC 250's. They cut through just fine, they are low wattage but such a narrow beam that it still works, as long as you're using contrasting colors to back them up.


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## Brilliant2007 (Jan 4, 2008)

A few years back the Rental guy at Syracuse Scenery was a guy named Steve. Real nice guy, give them a call, they are real easy to work with and you can probably work out a little bit better deal. I lived in the area until 2002...they were pretty much the only real players in town. Man I hated those Shakespeares though.


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## cvanp (Jan 4, 2008)

Brilliant2007 said:


> A few years back the Rental guy at Syracuse Scenery was a guy named Steve.



Still is.

I'm going to try to get some Source Fours, otherwise I'll be renting Shakespeares, I think anyway. I have to think a bit about it tonight before I decide permanently.


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## icewolf08 (Jan 4, 2008)

cvanp said:


> Still is.
> I'm going to try to get some Source Fours, otherwise I'll be renting Shakespeares, I think anyway. I have to think a bit about it tonight before I decide permanently.


You can also get a price for renting ACLs, many rental houses carry them, with lamps and all wired up so all you have to do is hook them up.


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## cvanp (Jan 4, 2008)

Icewolf: the par cans we have are really cheap and are just screw terminals so in that sense ACLs would do the job. If by screw terminal you mean the same type of deal that a light bulb screws in... (I'm new to this lingo!)


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## icewolf08 (Jan 4, 2008)

what PARs do you have? I have not met a PAR64 with a screw base, so chances are the cans you have won't fit an ACL. By screw terminals I mean that on the back of the lamp are two terminals that you screw the wires down to. You can sort of see them in this photo:

The base that a standard light bulb screws into is a medium screw base, just for your edification.


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## gafftapegreenia (Jan 4, 2008)

Just to add. PAR's come in 16, 20, 30, 36, 38, 48, 56 and 64 sizes. The number corresponds to the diameter of the lamp in eights of an inch (1/8"). Thus, a PAR 64 is 8 inches in diameter. A pinspot is a low voltage PAR 36. An ACL is a low voltage PAR 64. Both pinspots and ACL's use screw terminals. Both pinspots and ACL's offer the tightest "pencil" beams because their low voltage nature allows for smaller, tighter filaments. No PAR above 38 comes with a medium Edison screw base.


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## soundlight (Jan 4, 2008)

I'm gonna ask another quick question relating to pinspots - how much of a problem is it to place them on a dimmer if the dimmer is only ever at 0 or 100 percent (IE switched dimmer, but not a relay). This will be Leprecon LD-360HP dimmers. I'll have 5 pinspots per channel, and only one channel of each dimmer pack will be used for pinspots (the rest will be 5 PAR46 200W MFL units). Basically, how much damage would this actually do to the dimmer or the transformer?  I usually preach the "don't ever, ever put inductive loads on a dimmer" philosophy, but you gotta do what you gotta do, and I want to know if this gotta do is worth it.


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## Charc (Jan 4, 2008)

Both Pinspots and ACLs are dimmable, right?


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## soundlight (Jan 4, 2008)

charcoaldabs said:


> Both Pinspots and ACLs are dimmable, right?



ACL's are usually wired in series in bars of 4, as they have 28V lamps. In sets of four, they are dimmable. Or you can just find 110V or 120V ACL lamps and use those.

However, almost all pinspots have a 6V or 12V transformer in them, and the lamps are 6V or 12V. The 4515 is the standard Pinspot lamp, and it's 6V, 30W lamp. Basically, if you do things "right", you never put Pinspots on a dimmer, because of the inductive load. However, it's been done many, many times. My theory on this is slightly rusty right now, which is why I asked the question that I did.


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## icewolf08 (Jan 4, 2008)

I believe (though could be wrong) that pinspots are designed with dimming in mind.


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## cvanp (Jan 4, 2008)

These are the Par Cans we have. http://www.activemusician.com/item-...n=MBT+PAR+38S+Par+Can+-+Black+w/Steel+Fixture

Certainly not professional quality or anything but that's what it is.


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## soundlight (Jan 4, 2008)

cvanp said:


> These are the Par Cans we have. http://www.activemusician.com/item-...n=MBT+PAR+38S+Par+Can+-+Black+w/Steel+Fixture
> 
> Certainly not professional quality or anything but that's what it is.



If your decision comes down to getting lamps for these or getting pinspots, get pinspots. They're small but punchy, and have a very characteristic super-narrow parallel beam, like a tiny ACL. PAR38 lamps are always gonna have alot more spill and wider beam angles than pinspots.


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## gafftapegreenia (Jan 4, 2008)

My final vote is the pinspots or if you can, rent an ACL bar or two.


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## TupeloTechie (Jan 4, 2008)

I second the pin spot, plus you should be able to get them for about $12 a piece, not $20 (not including shipping of course)
bulb america has them for $11 (http://www.bulbamerica.com/Theatrical-Lighting-22-cat.htm?gclid=CPnO88-h3pACFQJJsgodhF7cVw) and musicians friend has them for $12 (http://www.musiciansfriend.com/prod...Bulb?sku=803076&src=3WFRWXX&CAWELAID=26049992)
and both include the lamp


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## derekleffew (Jan 5, 2008)

charcoaldabs said:


> Both Pinspots and ACLs are dimmable, right?


ACLs in groups of 4 are certainly dimmable. soundman, I've never heard of a 120V ACL. The 6V and 12V pinspots may or may not be dimmable, depending on the quality of the transformer inside. Go ahead and try to dim one: The worst that could happen is the internal transformer smokes and toasts the SCRs in your dimmers, rendering both useless.

Can you tell I prefer the gobo idea, either in the OP's 1KL ERS, or a rented S4-50°?


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## ship (Jan 5, 2008)

Given an 18' throw distance to the stage deck, what Dia. of light beam on the stage deck do you wish to have and assuming as described of a sewer, what is this image competing against for light? Again the haze in the air recommendation as with smoke perhaps that is dispersed with smoke. Perhaps for the next scene mount some household box fans about the stage and or grid and install them on a between scene cue so as to blow away what haze/smoke is needed to help see the beams of light in this scene.

On the pinspots... they at 30w 5.5 to 6.4v normally have about a 5x5 degree beam angle. (Confounded GE' Lightbeams program does not have this lamp on file to check the beam spread at that distance but its simple to determine given your throw distance.) Frosting the heck out of these lamps most likely won't achieve a say goal of 36" dia. hard shaft pools of light on the stage floor - no matter what punch is desired or needed. They while on a transformer are dimmable, though you need most likely at least two to three per 2.4Kw dimmer circuit so as to behave.

A Beam projector of course would be ideal as with a PAR 64 VNSP with top hat. This assuming line voltage (120v) normal types of fixture. Lekos - I'm thinking 6x12 or 30 degree Leko would also work with a donut and iris. Given such equipment is not in budget - even the 1Kw type FFN PAR 64 VNSP lamps which would have 849 foot candles with a 7.65' field angle and 3.15' beam angle - renting 8" Fresnel/PAR 64 top hat would further refine this beam of light. This fixture/lamp the PAR 64 with FFN lamp would however be most economical to rent even with a top hat for it.

Given it's just a scene, other options such as renting another Leko or beam projector - but worth checking into, are most likely not feasible given a small inventory you have to start with - though renting some "ACL" PAR 64 fixtures and wiring them in series for your vents with the 600w/28v #4559 or more common 250w/28v #4552 lamps would do the thing in a PAR 64 fixture with such a series voltage system. This would be dimmable. Normally such a spaced apart ACL concept is not a normal thing so there might be a set up and re-engineering of a system price added to the rental charge to do this from the rental company. Should the rental company not have such a ACL lamp PAR 64 system available, any rock and roll lighting company would though it might be a little more difficult to get a custom rental out of them as spaced apart ACL cans would be. (Normally such cans would be together on a lamp bar wired within the bar.)

The #4559 lamp (while fairly rare to the industry these days in use) would have 1,852 foot candles with a field angle of 3.78' and beam angle of 2.52' - now that's tight. (Sorry, GE Light Beams - the discontinued program I'm using does not list the #4552, much less the #4515.) 

Other options assuming the PAR 36 fixtures bought...
Could buy the pinspots and bypass the transformer, than wire them for PAR 36, 250w/28v #4596 lamps which will fit into your light fixture and be feasible but a bit warm for it. Would have to run four of them in series in the same concept of would work. Again limitations of GE Lightbeams free but limited. Given the 12x11 degree beam angle which is very similar to that of the #4559 lamp above, the beam angle should be slightly smaller but roughly the same. This lamp would be a good choice even if a little less intense. Rule of thumb would be to completely remove the transformer from the fixture while bypassing it. Difficult but can be done. This will allow cooling space and that the heat won't melt internal wiring.

Another option would be to buy some 650w/120v FBE PAR 36 lamps and again bypass the transformer, if not even add cooling vents to the rear of your fixtures. This is high modification to the fixture and not really recommended but would be required. At that point you have a 25x15 degree beam angle spot lamp which you might need to add a top hat to such as a properly sized soup can that extends the length of the pinspot to it. This will reduce and clean up the focus more. It's 120v and 36,000 Lumens at a really high 5K color temperature (lasting 30 hours) Ah' what a lamp if you can afford to use them and seriously modify the store bought pinspot so as to properly use them. All wiring removed and replaced with high temperature wiring and transformer removed plus the fixture with a added properly sized soup can so as to limit and clean up the field angle.


Could work but before I tried such a thing I might if I have a few 6" Fresnels hanging about, attempting to remove the lens from one, adding a top hat and putting the thing into spot position. If too harsh a beam, I might add a very light frost to it and if not much help even cover the reflector in black foil wrap or remove it. Theoretically the Fresnel should also work fine as a properly sized beam of light at this distance, just might take some work and be less refined.

Beyond this and these, ACL or SBL (Sealed Beam Lamp) as it were, there is lots of versions and both terms are for all intensive purposes one in the same. Even for the PAR 38 lamp, there is various beam spreads at low voltage and low voltage is the concept to go for. If you have a surplus PAR fixture type, it's possible to just buy some lamps for it/them and wire them in series with a sufficient lamp for them to have a VNSP beam of light in most all sizes of lamp. This just as one is able to use MFL lamps with a pin spot fixture at the same wattage/voltage, simply by changing to a different lamp. Literally hundreds of lamp types line and low voltage on the market, the above is only a sampling of what is possible.








cvanp said:


> Hey all,
> At the end of one of the songs in our show we want to have a full-on blackout and have beams of light shining. The scene takes place in a sewer so the idea will be that light is creeping in from the world above. This is the kind of thing I'm looking to do: http://www.hmmagazine.com/reviews/dvd/TSO lights.gif - those really narrow beams of light are exactly what I want.
> Currently the top candidate is this Chauvet Pinspot. The way the light is described, it seems to do exactly what I need - it provides a focused, narrow beam of light - the problem is it's only a $20 light, and by looks alone it appears that there will be a great deal of wash.
> So I guess my question is.. are pinspots like this really that effective? I need a good amount of distance... we're clamping them to a bar so something like 18 feet away... are they capable without too much wash? Also, does this look like something that would work or are there any other (non-DMX) lights that could provide a similar function?
> Thanks again everyone


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## ship (Jan 5, 2008)

A safety note on modifying your pinspots. This is not an easy task, one that will totally void the UL listing of the fixture in a way swapping out the lamp for another 30w/6v lamp won't and require quite a bit of work. Such a step is not recommended should you buy fixtures and attempt to modify them for either the #4596 or FEB lamp. Still it can be done. Attached is a photo of an American DJ pinspot that I modified for a tour to either house DWE lamps or #4596 lamps dependant upon how it was wired within the pod of these and fluorescent fixtures within the light. Had to make about 140 of these fixtures in about a two week period - this without compormizing safety and no budget for safety. That safety screen especially afront of the lamp is especially hard to do, in my case I modified some screens off audience blinders so as to fit. Really not easy to do such a safety screen other than having a store bought component due to the welded screen nature.

All wiring was replaced with 200c wiring, the rear of the fixture was punched out and replaced with a screen and the front of the fixture had a lens safety screen added to it. This in addition to a safety cable to ensure the front of the fixture lamp retaining cap could not fall off.

Gotta vent the rear of the fixture and safety screen the lens.


Two choices in PAR 36 line voltage spot lamp that would work (again on the theoretical side) with such a PAR 36 can, the FEB above mentioned that would have a daylight color temperature, and the FBO which would have a incandescent/halogen color temperature but much more luminious output. Nothing more powerful than a #4596 on the other hand for a PAR 36 SBL (ACL) lamp. Three lamp choices to max out a pinspot fixture but only given a very heavily modified fixture. Short of as shown, it's not safe to use such lamps in a pinspot. Way too much lamp for so small of a cooling area - this much less lack of safety screening both to the wiring area and high pressure lamp.


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## ship (Jan 5, 2008)

Another option on the simple to rent or buy concept of PAR 64 fixtures, but one that in addition to the FFN lamp would be to go with the ray light kit for them - often available thru many DJ suppliers. Uses a 600w/120v DYS lamp (not very long life) or even a Ushio 800w/120v lamp for more output. Might find a sales price of such a fixture really cheap, this much less the rental. Output could fall in line with the above #4552 lamps in output sufficient for you needs and again renting or getting top hats for the fixture could help further refine the beam of light for your use.

Better option than modifying or doing the PAR 36 pinspot or other lamp in it. This said, there are other low voltage lamps for the PAR 38, 46 and especially PAR 56 in low voltage that could work. This even potentially some MR-16 lamps that could be sufficient on the concept scale.

Still... proper fixture would be a beam projector. Perhaps the rental company or local college has some laying about collecting dust that would be available cheap.

Another concept would be a rental company or rock and roll lighting company that stocks four light Mole Richardson lights or Thomas brand like four light audience blinder type fixtures. IN the case of a Mole Richardson four light, you would want it lamped with FAY or otherwise the discontinued FBJ lamps, for the Thomas normal fixture it would be four lamps per fixture of the #4596 or FBE/FBO lamps. You now have a pod of four that you focus to the center. Lots of light, one aiming point. One four light audience blinder per man-hole cover. Could work sufficiently and should be really intense. 

Note the note above about color temperature in PAR 36 lamps. Perhaps a daylight color temperature - even if color corrected to will also help the effect.


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## derekleffew (Jan 5, 2008)

cvanp said:


> ...At the end of one of the songs in our show we want to have a full-on blackout and have beams of light shining. The scene takes place in a sewer so the idea will be that light is creeping in from the world above. This is the kind of thing I'm looking to do: http://www.hmmagazine.com/reviews/dvd/TSO%20lights.gif - those really narrow beams of light are exactly what I want...


Sorry but that picture doesn't say "below a sewer grate" to me. But if that's the effect you want, the pinspots should be able to make it happen, but you'll need to put them on different battens and focus them intentionally random to get the same effects as the 3000W Syncrolites (or Showguns) in the photo. A four bar of ACLs will not work, even if focused random. I would use at least seven pinspots on 3 different battens, maybe even plugged into the wall as constant power during the previous scene if they are not noticeable when the stage lights are one, then blackout everything except the pinspots, should be a dramatic effect.


icewolf08 said:


> That is correct. In theatrical use typical is to wire 4 in series. If you had less than 4 you would be way over voltage and they would just die. If you wanted fewer than 4 you would need to wire them to a transformer.


Or point the unused lamps to the grid or offstage (anywhere out of view of the audience). I've even seen a rather large 28V, 250W resistor called an "ACL-eliminator."


icewolf08 said:


> ...By screw terminals I mean that on the back of the lamp are two terminals that you screw the wires down to...


Alex, I know you know better than that. You attach a fork crimp terminal to the wires, then the fork goes onto the screw terminals of the lamp.

By the way, some rental houses stock an "ACL Harness," which allows the single cans to be hung anywhere, even extended away from each other. It's a male plug with 4 female connectors wired in series, usually all 2P&G. But I'm not recommending this for non-professional use, as it's too easy to plug the wrong fixture into the wrong connector. ACLs need not be four lamps on 15" centers. I once built a "light curtain" out of (20) 6V 30W PAR36 lamps, all wired in series, 600W total, at 120V, all single hung, with 18" of cable between then, even though they hung on 12" centers. I was glad I didn't have to maintain it, as it was for a permanent club install. Not that difficult to maintain really, just unplug the one power connector and test for continuity on each lamp until you find the bad one. Just like old Christmas lights!


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## Pie4Weebl (Jan 5, 2008)

I think I am going to change my vote to VNSP Par64 if you are buying, but see what rental rates are for those vs. ACLS.


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## TupeloTechie (Jan 5, 2008)

derekleffew said:


> Sorry but that picture doesn't say "below a sewer grate" to me.



If you look for some pictures of the B'way production of Les Miserables it has has few sewer scenes that look very realistic.


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## cvanp (Jan 5, 2008)

To sum up, my options appear to be:


Rent ellipsoidals (50 degree S4s in best case, but my rental place only does Shakespeare 50s) and make some lovely gobos to get the light pin effect
Pinspots, (Chauvet YA-15 or YA-06???)
These enigmatic "ACL"s. I still don't quite understand everything about these.

I think those are my top options right now, and I'm honestly leaning away from the ACLs just because I can't find any information about them other than here. The pinspots are promising if they work, and if I can get enough ellipsoidals for cheap enough I'll probably consider that route. But with that, I can't just rent the lights - I also have to rent Stage pin to Edison adapters so it won't be too cheap.

Thanks everyone for your help. I thought this would be a simple topic but I guess six pages later it turned out I was wrong! Thanks for guiding me through all the different options.


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## derekleffew (Jan 5, 2008)

cvanp, I assume you've looked into renting the pinspots? Any mobile DJs in your area who might have some, if not your local lighting rental shop? These are a big money maker in the industry, and anyone who rents mirror balls should also rent the pinspots to go with it. It's probably the most-used fixture for lighting a mirror ball.


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## cvanp (Jan 9, 2008)

So I just got some of the Source Four lights from my dad's auditorium and we're playing with them now at our school. Turns out they are Source Four Jrs., not the regular Source Fours, and have 23deg. on the side but my LD seems to think that they'll be good. He focused them and doesn't even think we'll really need gobos.

I think this is the option that we'll go with... thanks everyone for your help!


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## cvanp (Jan 24, 2008)

Quick update: Turns out this 6 page thread was all for nothing (well, it's good for future searchers). Our fire department didn't want to turn off any fire alarms for the show, and thus we can't use fog. Without fog, the light beams aren't visible, and thus the effect is relatively pointless.

Thanks for all your help though, it was greatly appreciated!


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## tgates (Jan 24, 2008)

It happens, unfortunately. I can't tell you how many corporate clients won't spend a few hundred dollars on a fire watch (having a firemen on duty while the alarms are off) so you can use your haze to make the most of the thousands of dollars of flashy lighting they got for their entertainment.


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## dimwatt (Jan 24, 2008)

cvanp said:


> Quick update: Turns out this 6 page thread was all for nothing.



Far from it. I thought that was a very interesting discussion which provoked a lot of different opinions and creative ideas. The very reason why I joined this forum.

Thank you for starting the thread.


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