# Strand Palette/Light Palette Upgraded



## Slurpy (Feb 1, 2008)

New v10 software is on their website right now.


----------



## fredthe (Feb 1, 2008)

For those of you looking for the OLE, the link is
http://www.strandlighting.com/clientuploads/directory/downloads/PaletteOLE10.0.1.exe
(Only the link to the console software is on their support page, the link for the OLE hasn't made it yet.)

Played with it for a bit... if nothing else, the interface looks "cleaner".


----------



## derekleffew (Feb 1, 2008)

Well, I guess we know where gafftaper is going, once he reads this.


----------



## Slurpy (Feb 2, 2008)

fredthe said:


> (Only the link to the console software is on their support page, the link for the OLE hasn't made it yet.)



All of the downloads are on their website. Here is the shortcut:

http://www.strandlighting.com/index.php?xsearch%5B0%5D=Controls&xsearch%5B1%5D=Palette+Series&xsearch%5B2%5D=&submit=Search&xsearch_id=Downloads_Search&src=directory&view=downloads&submenu=

OLE is there, along with console, users guides, etc.

I have been playing with the Beta has it has developed over the last 6months, and to say this is a "quantum leap" over the old version gives you an idea of the changes.

OK - I could be Strand biased, but I really do think this is a killer control option now. The old candy coloured one was just embarrasing as a replacement for the 500. This is now a real solution, and I look forward to reading the debates in the forums as everyone starts to play with it.


----------



## Footer (Feb 2, 2008)

Slurpy said:


> All of the downloads are on their website. Here is the shortcut:
> http://www.strandlighting.com/index.php?xsearch%5B0%5D=Controls&xsearch%5B1%5D=Palette+Series&xsearch%5B2%5D=&submit=Search&xsearch_id=Downloads_Search&src=directory&view=downloads&submenu=
> OLE is there, along with console, users guides, etc.
> I have been playing with the Beta has it has developed over the last 6months, and to say this is a "quantum leap" over the old version gives you an idea of the changes.
> OK - I could be Strand biased, but I really do think this is a killer control option now. The old candy coloured one was just embarrasing as a replacement for the 500. This is now a real solution, and I look forward to reading the debates in the forums as everyone starts to play with it.



Had my hands on the software a few weeks ago, and it looks like a huge step forward, interested to hear what others have to say.


----------



## derekleffew (Feb 2, 2008)

Slurpy, it's customary and somewhat required for New Members to start a thread in the New Member area introducing themselves. From your posts, you appear to be a descendant of Levy and Kook. Do you have a professional relationship with what we know as Strand Lighting?


----------



## gafftaper (Feb 3, 2008)

derekleffew said:


> Well, I guess we know where gafftaper is going, once he reads this.



I'm actually torn on that one. I'm getting my training on the new console on Tuesday. Should I upgrade the software on Monday? If I do will the trainer know the new software? Should I sit there and get trained on software that I'm about to upgrade? It's an interesting question. I think I better wait and hope the trainer shows up and pops in a key with the new software on it before we start.


----------



## derekleffew (Feb 3, 2008)

Don't count on that. Download the software and have it ready and if your trainer doesn't know it, both of you can learn it together. When reps of <an un-named mfg.> came to my venue to do training on the <deleted>, I asked them if they had brought version <x.x>, recently released. They looked at each other and said "Well, we talked about it..." At which point I produced a floppy.


----------



## gafftaper (Feb 3, 2008)

derekleffew said:


> Don't count on that. Download the software and have it ready and if your trainer doesn't know it, both of you can learn it together. When reps of <an un-named mfg.> came to my venue to do training on the <deleted>, I asked them if they had brought version <x.x>, recently released. They looked at each other and said "Well, we talked about it..." At which point I produced a floppy.



GREAT Idea. Thanks Derek.


----------



## derekleffew (Feb 3, 2008)

And another thing, I think I've told you this. Be sure to get your trainer's home phone, cell phone, email address, spouse's cel#, and parents' home phone. Charlie Richmond was fond of saying, "I don't mind giving my home phone number out to customers for support, as they never need it."


----------



## Slurpy (Feb 3, 2008)

derekleffew said:


> Slurpy, it's customary and somewhat required for New Members to start a thread in the New Member area introducing themselves. From your posts, you appear to be a descendant of Levy and Kook. Do you have a professional relationship with what we know as Strand Lighting?



OK - to correct the fopar, newbie post is here:
http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/showthread.php?p=79731#post79731

My Strand bias comes largely from having spent the last ?? years running their consoles. Yes I now work for the local reseller of their consoles, but anyone that knows me knows that I am not backwards in saying when I think something is "ahem" not worth the time!

My experience lead me to their developer beta group (which in reality anyone that could really drive a 500 could join). As I said previously, "I could be biased". In fact, I can confidently say that everyone has their biases based on what they have experienced. My experience suggests this console upgrade is going to do well for Strand and give a little heartburn to the competition. (Which is a good thing - makes everyone hungry, and we end up with better and more reliable consoles, regardless of the brand)

So, back to my last comment, I will be interested to see what others make of this console.


----------



## gafftaper (Feb 7, 2008)

Well I had my training. It was five hours of my life I'll never get back. The guy was a hardware guy with little knowledge of the console itself or the ideas behind the Horizon based software. He did upgrade me to the new software and it is pretty cool. He knew everything about the network but didn't know anything about the console or software. It wasn't just a matter of being new to the software, he didn't know what the DBO button did (the help feature revealed DBO means Dead Black Out).A well placed complaint e-mail to a friend of Derek's got me in touch with the head software guru who felt so bad he gave me his home phone number. So I think things are going to improve a little. 

In searching the Strand site for contact information to complain I found this statement which really had me laughing. "Strand Lighting has a proven record of support that others seek to emulate and which ensures that customers can invest with confidence. When you needs us, our highly trained product specialists are here to assist you."

Hey Steve Terry, I hear "others seek to emulate" Strand. Do you have a guy you send out to train customers on new systems who doesn't know what the buttons on the console do, what a blocking cue is, or the basic concepts behind how the console handles intelligent gear? I had five hours of training, half of which were spent reading the help screen with my trainer. I hear it's something you might want to "emulate".


----------



## Slurpy (Feb 7, 2008)

Geez - I hope that person gets some training themselves!!!

It is not that hard, I routinely have to show people the console. With about 15min of basic introduction, they can plot and run a show without too much trouble.


----------



## TechiGoz (Feb 7, 2008)

Beautiful. Thanks guys! That'll definatley come in handy


----------



## gafftaper (Feb 7, 2008)

Slurpy said:


> Geez - I hope that person gets some training themselves!!!
> It is not that hard, I routinely have to show people the console. With about 15min of basic introduction, they can plot and run a show without too much trouble.



We covered how to program a sub, cue, and turn a light on in the first 15 minutes. But that was where his knowledge seemed to end. We video taped the session so that I could break down all the information and then cut my own video series... uh not any more. The camera man later said, "I got a lot of great shots of you looking at the help screen".


----------



## Slurpy (Feb 7, 2008)

Oh well - hope that person learns from the experience. Be assured there are better options out there.


----------



## derekleffew (Feb 7, 2008)

gafftaper said:


> ... DBO means Dead Black Out...


How very British! Didn't know the newest Palette/Classic Palette had any British origins, or that "new Strand" even pertained to the European/Asain/non-US markets. Next you're gonna tell me there's a button/color palette labeled "Open White"?


----------



## gafftaper (Feb 7, 2008)

derekleffew said:


> How very British! Didn't know the newest Palette/Classic Palette had any British origins, or that "new Strand" even pertained to the European/Asain/non-US markets. Next you're gonna tell me there's a button/color palette labeled "Open White"?



No but there is actually DBO-a and DBO-b which is interesting. From what I've read in the help file... one can be momentary while the other is constant.


----------



## Footer (Feb 7, 2008)

gafftaper said:


> Well I had my training. It was five hours of my life I'll never get back. The guy was a hardware guy with little knowledge of the console itself or the ideas behind the Horizon based software. He did upgrade me to the new software and it is pretty cool. He knew everything about the network but didn't know anything about the console or software. It wasn't just a matter of being new to the software, he didn't know what the DBO button did (the help feature revealed DBO means Dead Black Out).A well placed complaint e-mail to a friend of Derek's got me in touch with the head software guru who felt so bad he gave me his home phone number. So I think things are going to improve a little.
> In searching the Strand site for contact information to complain I found this statement which really had me laughing. "Strand Lighting has a proven record of support that others seek to emulate and which ensures that customers can invest with confidence. When you needs us, our highly trained product specialists are here to assist you."
> Hey Steve Terry, I hear "others seek to emulate" Strand. Do you have a guy you send out to train customers on new systems who doesn't know what the buttons on the console do, what a blocking cue is, or the basic concepts behind how the console handles intelligent gear? I had five hours of training, half of which were spent reading the help screen with my trainer. I hear it's something you might want to "emulate".



I hope you got a hold of Bobby Harrel's number. He is truly the person to go to for any type of strand support. He did my training on the 500 series years back, and he knows his stuff and how to teach it. Ask for him when you are negotiating a strand install, he does on site "turn on" training all the time.


----------



## gafftaper (Feb 7, 2008)

Footer4321 said:


> I hope you got a hold of Bobby Harrel's number. He is truly the person to go to for any type of strand support. He did my training on the 500 series years back, and he knows his stuff and how to teach it. Ask for him when you are negotiating a strand install, he does on site "turn on" training all the time.



Yep, Bobby Harrel's the guy that I'm now in touch with who even gave me his home phone #.


----------



## Footer (Feb 7, 2008)

gafftaper said:


> Yep, Bobby Harrel's the guy that I'm now in touch with who even gave me his home phone #.



He'll answer it too!


----------



## jmabray (Feb 7, 2008)

Yep. Anything Strand console related, he is definitely the guy.


----------



## derekleffew (Feb 13, 2008)

gafftaper said:


> ...In searching the Strand site for contact information to complain I found this statement which really had me laughing. "Strand Lighting has a proven record of support that others seek to emulate and which ensures that customers can invest with confidence. When you needs us, our highly trained product specialists are here to assist you."
> 
> Hey Steve Terry, I hear "others seek to emulate" Strand. ... I hear it's something you might want to "emulate".



Jane, you ignorant slot! In December 1980, the commissioning for my university's LightPalette was done by Joel Epstein*, Head of Field Service, and training was done by Don Lammers, the author of the User's Manual. 

At that time, Strand-Century's reputation was beyond reproach, as was reflected in their prices. Every other manufacturer was a very distant "also ran."

While I'll admit the possibility that levels of service have fluctuated in twenty-seven years; both individuals mentioned are still working for/with Strand Lighting. Want to hear stories of poor customer service, ask the man who owns Kliegl! (With apologies to Packard Motor Company, and Robert Kliegl).

**Century Lighting Service, Inc*
18-02 River Rd
Fair Lawn, New Jersey 07410-1201
USA Tel: 201-791-7001
Fax: 201-791-3167
Contact: Joel Epstein

And here's an (to me) interesting bit of trivia: The first London production of _Cats_ was done on a Kliegl console. (I'm guessing it had to be the Command Performance--still the best console name ever, so very self-important!)


----------



## gafftaper (Feb 13, 2008)

My complaints to Strand about the training have been heard and they appear to be working hard to make it up to us with a new training session. I'll post a follow up at the end of the week to let you know how it all plays out. 

Today I sat at my office desk in the shop and wirelessly logged onto the lighting network. I then proceeded to mindlessly run lighting cues from the shop without any idea of what is happening on stage. That's pretty cool. I might be able to run light cues from my truck...


----------



## derekleffew (Feb 13, 2008)

gafftaper said:


> Today I sat at my office desk in the shop and wirelessly logged onto the lighting network. I then proceeded to mindlessly run lighting cues from the shop without any idea of what is happening on stage. That's pretty cool. I might be able to run light cues from my truck...


Sounds like a severe safety violation to me. Did you have your DMX Confetti Cannons, Kabuki Drop, Projector Dowser, and Pyro and Rigging Systems active also? That WiFi network *better* be locked down tighter than a <fill in the blank>. But please post the IP address and Password here so we can all look at your new lighting system. I want to sit outside your theatre and "fix" your levels during tech. It would help if you'd send me the VW2008 and LW4 files, but a "Channel Magic" sheet in Excel would probably suffice.


gafftaper said:


> ...mindlessly run lighting cues...


Wait, what? Is there any other way? Can one really mindfully run lighting cues?


----------



## gafftaper (Feb 13, 2008)

derekleffew said:


> Sounds like a severe safety violation to me. Did you have your DMX Confetti Cannons, Kabuki Drop, Projector Dowser, and Pyro and Rigging Systems active also?



Uh... I don't know I wasn't in the room at the time. 


derekleffew said:


> That WiFi network *better* be locked down tighter than a <fill in the blank>.



That's actually something I'm concerned about. The network is not connected to the internet. From what I can tell it's a mindless network that anyone can access but they will get nothing off of it unless they have the Strand console software and know the ip address of the console. So short of a disgruntled tech who wants to mess with a show there isn't a lot that the general public can do to it.


----------



## derekleffew (Feb 13, 2008)

gafftaper said:


> ...That's actually something I'm concerned about. The network is not connected to the internet. From what I can tell it's a mindless network that anyone can access but they will get nothing off of it unless they have the Strand console software and know the ip address of the console. So short of a disgruntled tech who wants to mess with a show there isn't a lot that the general public can do to it.


Haven't we already discussed the movie War Games? And isn't the average age of the common hacker the same as that as of your students? Free Kevin!

Back to topic: (From now on I'll just use the tla: BTT) You said you were going to ask about the Windows Embedded programs you were unlikely to want/need. Are you waiting for more training for that?


----------



## gafftaper (Feb 14, 2008)

derekleffew said:


> Haven't we already discussed the movie War Games? And isn't the average age of the common hacker the same as that as of your students? Free Kevin!
> Back to topic: (From now on I'll just use the tla: BTT) You said you were going to ask about the Windows Embedded programs you were unlikely to want/need. Are you waiting for more training for that?



I guess I need to find out what "tla" means before I use "BTT". 

For those staying up with the saga. Strand appears to be working hard to make things right. They are flying a guy in from somewhere in Canada to train me on Friday. This guy is apparently the guy who wrote the software. So he should be able to fully explain why they chose to leave that other stuff in the Embedded software as well as if it's removable and if it's potentially any sort of problem in the first place. As far as my install goes, the console's not connected to the real internet so there's no chance of the board op miss a cue because he's reading Derek's blog. 

Anyone got a question for me to ask the software guy?


----------



## derekleffew (Feb 14, 2008)

TLA=Three Letter Acronym. Don't feel bad--I didn't know either, until that guy from Cornell told me!

gafftaper said:


> ...Anyone got a question for me to ask the software guy?


Oh, you mean about the console software? 

How's the _vision_ of the display(s)? What about the _concept_ of "predictive channel selection on the command line," or the _expression_ of "position correction," or the _obsession_ with "20-channels across displays." My _idea_: I get the _impression_ that the developers have shown true _insight_ on the Light Palette/Palette series. Can the desk do logic?: _express_ "all of the blue frontlights, except areas two and five, to a 'set' level of 75%." I suspect it will be _ions_ before the desk can do that, possibly not in this _eos_. I'm sure your system uses distributed processing, to allow for _smartfades_. Can multiple systems work together in _unison_? And finally, if Dave Cunningham was not involved in the development of these consoles, why not?


----------



## gafftaper (Feb 16, 2008)

I Had an OUTSTANDING 6 hour training session today with one of the Horizon software writers for the Strand Palette. Strand really stepped up and made things right flying in a guy from Calgary to spend the day with me (for you Bobby Harrell fans, I'm told they tried to get him for me but he was already booked for a trip to Europe).
He REALLY knew his stuff and was an excellent teacher. The guy even bought me lunch. 

There are apparently several issues with the Black and Tan software so there is an update coming out in a few weeks. He tells me that they have four people who have the full time job of fixing bugs and adding new features to the software. There must have been a dozen times in the training that we talked about a feature that would be kind of cool. Many of them are already in the works to be added to future software updates, others were possible and just a matter of them deciding there was enough demand to make it worth writing the software. For example the bump buttons are all momentary. There's no reason they couldn't be toggles... it's just a matter of them deciding it's worth adding that feature and write the code. It sounds like they plan on releasing regular software updates every few months reacting to the requests of their customers. He said they try to turn around requests for new fixture personalities in a day or two. As I've said in other posts in the past I've always liked the Horizon software and I'm really impressed with what they've done with it since I first used the basic PC version about 4 years ago. 

They now have a website with forums for the new software. He says their software developers and the Strand Console experts are hanging out there all the time to answer questions and get feedback about bugs, new gear that needs personalities written, and for ideas of new features to add. You can even become a beta tester through the site. 
Sorry guys I may have to spend a little time over there now too... please don't feel like I don't love you anymore it's just that I've found someone new. 

Coolest thing I learned today... You can lie to the Palette software and create your own intelligent fixture. 
How: 
Take your three cell cyc light and load the correct color RGB gels
Load the personality for a generic RGB fixture. 
Patch the three color attributes to the correct fixtures' dimmers.
The Palette software now sees that as one unit. You can go into the color picker and click on a color and the software will balance the output of the three fixtures to blend that specific color. It even has the full library of Rosco, Lee, Apollo, and Gam Gel to choose from. Just click a color from the gel book and the console does it's best to mix that exact color. 
In theory you could triple hang your whole rig and set up the console to think of the entire rig as a bunch of RGB lights. That's some crazy cool. 

Along with this we finally got my Seachangers working today. Oh they are SO BEAUTIFUL. And amazing when combined with that color picking software. You want Fatherless Amber you've got it just a couple clicks away.

My only remaining complaint is the DMX nodes require Power over Ethernet. Of course my system didn't get designed with a hub that has PoE built in so I have to add it with PoE injectors. I've been to all the local computer places and most of them have no idea what a PoE injector is. The manual says there is also a power adapter option but it's not exactly a user friendly option either. For the $750+ I paid you would think they could throw in a power adapter or PoE injector instead of make me run all over town to find a PoE injector. Of course you can just order one on-line but with my state institution purchasing laws I can't just do that it may take me weeks to get one ordered if I can't find one locally. Apparently they have a new and improved node coming out. Hopefully it'll come with it's own power source.


----------



## gafftaper (Feb 16, 2008)

derekleffew said:


> TLA=Three Letter Acronym. Don't feel bad--I didn't know either, until that guy from Cornell told me!
> Oh, you mean about the console software?
> How's the _vision_ of the display(s)? What about the _concept_ of "predictive channel selection on the command line," or the _expression_ of "position correction," or the _obsession_ with "20-channels across displays." My _idea_: I get the _impression_ that the developers have shown true _insight_ on the Light Palette/Palette series. Can the desk do logic?: _express_ "all of the blue frontlights, except areas two and five, to a 'set' level of 75%." I suspect it will be _ions_ before the desk can do that, possibly not in this _eos_. I'm sure your system uses distributed processing, to allow for _smartfades_. Can multiple systems work together in _unison_? And finally, if Dave Cunningham was not involved in the development of these consoles, why not?



Hey smart guy they do have predictive channel selection in the command line. If you select channels "1+3+35+57 etc" the next time you start to type that combination it will pop up in the box and you just hit shift enter to accept that combination... texting technology on my console. 

As for position correction:
If you program one point in the show that every mover in the rig is pointed at one spot you are set. You load in, fire up that cue, hand adjust all the fixtures to get all the instruments looking at the correct spot and click. The software adjusts all Pan, tilt, and zoom values for the entire show to compensate for the new space. You go have dinner. Not bad. 

Oh and for all those afraid of the PC crash with the console. Strand installed a PC that sits next to the console. This PC is also on the network and is used to monitor activity on the network and run WYG. If the Console were to die mid show all I have to do is reach inside the desk and pull the dongle out, and grab the USB key that has the backup show file in it out of the back of the console. Plug both USB keys into the adjacent computer, fire up the software, load the show, and go to the next cue. Instant backup system. I could also do the same thing wirelessly off my laptop and run the rest of the show from my office.


----------



## derekleffew (Feb 16, 2008)

gafftaper said:


> There must have been a dozen times in the training that we talked about a feature that would be kind of cool. Many of them are already in the works to be added to future software updates, others were possible and just a matter of them deciding there was enough demand to make it worth writing the software.


Hog3 anyone?


gafftaper said:


> ...The guy even bought me lunch...


And that "free" lunch only cost your college, what, about $250,000?


gafftaper said:


> ...Coolest thing I learned today... You can lie to the Palette software...


And once it finds out, it will NEVER trust you again.


gafftaper said:


> ...It sounds like they plan on releasing regular software updates every few months reacting to the requests of their customers. ...


You'll soon discover this to be _both _a blessing and a curse. MARK (MIB/auto-move when dark/Gafftaper) MY WORDS!


gafftaper said:


> ...My only remaining complaint is the DMX nodes require Power over Ethernet. ...


PoE=NFG! You certainly have a valid complaint here, which should be directed to both the manufacturer and your (on-)crack Theatre Consultant.



gafftaper said:


> Hey smart guy they do have predictive channel selection in the command line. ...


Isn't that why I instructed you to ask about it? Want to know whose idea it was? (Not mine; but a friend's.) I thought you'd like that feature.


gafftaper said:


> ...As for position correction:
> If you program one point in the show that every mover in the rig is pointed at one spot you are set. You load in, fire up that cue, hand adjust all the fixtures to get all the instruments looking at the correct spot and click. The software adjusts all Pan, tilt, and zoom values for the entire show to compensate for the new space. ...


Hmm, FPS HogII could do this in 1999. How very revolutionary! You record the position into a cue? Not a "preset focus"? Not using palettes on something called a *.Palette is just, well, wrong.


gafftaper said:


> ...Oh and for all those afraid of the PC crash with the console. Strand installed a PC that sits next to the console. This PC is also on the network and is used to monitor activity on the network and run WYG. If the Console were to die mid show all I have to do is 1) reach inside the desk and pull the dongle out, and 2) grab the USB key that has the backup show file in it out of the back of the console. 3,4) Plug both USB keys into the adjacent computer, 5) fire up the software, 6) load the show, and 7) go to the next cue. Instant backup system. ...


Instant? Do you think this negates your not needing to know the location of the nearest identical console? Want to hear how the #1 concert touring Lighting Control System handles a multi-user, multi-console, redundant back-up; environment? 

Sorry if I appear argumentative, I've had a rough week, see other thread(s). 

I'm truly happy for you, and can't wait for you to send me your showfile so I can take it to my new-found "friendly local Lighting Shop" and have them demo the board to me using your cues. Next best thing to being there. Don't forget to include the Wyg™ file also.

DL


----------



## gafftaper (Feb 16, 2008)

Well Grumpy Derek... I think you've got your perspective all backwards and you've missed the point. We are talking about a middle of the price road conventional desk here (in the $15k range). Accept now it has features that are standards on moving light desks. NO it's not a Hog but I don't need a hog. However, some of those features will come in really handy with my collection of basic intelligent gear. The point is that a conventional desk has many features of a desk three or four times it's price. That's cool. 

While it's true ETC has already countered with Ion and Jr. (the direct competition of my Classic Palette) which also have features of a ML desk. The interesting thing is that this Strand/Horizon software and features are also available on consoles that start around $5k or so. So we are talking about direct competition of the good old Express in the High School/community theater/house of worship market. In my option Strand has really laid down the gauntlet to challenge ETC to replace the Express with something much more powerful. My apologies to the ETC regulars here on CB, but there's no way I would take an Express over a basic Preset Palette at this point. We've talked in the past about ETC working on replacing the Express. It'll be interesting to see what they do and how long it takes for the new Express to come out. 

Another interesting thought is someone who masters the $5k basic Palette consoles has also mastered the $50k Light Palette. The software is all the same it's just a matter of power processor, a desk with more buttons, and more channels and universes unlocked. That seems like a really cool sales pitch to me. Wouldn't it be great if the student whose school purchased a basic 2 scene preset console was learning how to use the same software they use on Broadway?

Final random note... Strand is working on a way for you to rent a dongle that will temporarily unlock more channels. So you are a small college operation like me and you have a big show coming up and you need a couple dozen movers for a one time gig. You rent a dongle that for a month will allow you that many channels. When the time is over the dongle goes dead and you are back to your old channel count. Very Cool.


----------



## gafftaper (Feb 16, 2008)

You miss the point about the backup system to Derek. Unlike the shows that come through your place. I can't afford to have a couple of rack mounted versions of the console that take over if anything goes crazy. However it's not very expensive to have a PC sitting nearby on the network. I'll make it standard procedure to have the the PC watching the show and following along. That way if anything happens it's just a matter of swapping the dongle... something that can be done in seconds. Again it's something that's been available to high end users for years at a high end price. Now a similar solution is available to lower end users at a very reasonable price.


----------



## jmabray (Feb 16, 2008)

gafftaper said:


> Well Grumpy Derek... I think you've got your perspective all backwards and you've missed the point. We are talking about a middle of the price road conventional desk here (in the $15k range). Accept now it has features that are standards on moving light desks. NO it's not a Hog but I don't need a hog. However, some of those features will come in really handy with my collection of basic intelligent gear. The point is that a conventional desk has many features of a desk three or four times it's price. That's cool.
> While it's true ETC has already countered with Ion and Jr. (the direct competition of my Classic Palette) which also have features of a ML desk. The interesting thing is that this Strand/Horizon software and features are also available on consoles that start around $5k or so. So we are talking about direct competition of the good old Express in the High School/community theater/house of worship market. In my option Strand has really laid down the gauntlet to challenge ETC to replace the Express with something much more powerful. My apologies to the ETC regulars here on CB, but there's no way I would take an Express over a basic Preset Palette at this point. We've talked in the past about ETC working on replacing the Express. It'll be interesting to see what they do and how long it takes for the new Express to come out.



List price on the basic ION console package is $6,750.00. Street price will be less than that - more around your 5K range I would imagine. While ETC will tell you the ION is not the Express replacement- the still make the Express - it is geared toward that price range.

When you couple the ION with the SmartFade ML that has the capability to do some more of those "Hog-Like" functions (i.e. pallettes, Fan, etc) at a very low list price ($2,995.00) you have a very good range of consoles.


> Another interesting thought is someone who masters the $5k basic Palette consoles has also mastered the $50k Light Palette. The software is all the same it's just a matter of power processor, a desk with more buttons, and more channels and universes unlocked. That seems like a really cool sales pitch to me. Wouldn't it be great if the student whose school purchased a basic 2 scene preset console was learning how to use the same software they use on Broadway?



Ummm... Ion uses the same software as the EOS. It is the exact same stuff. There are already several shows on Broadway who are using EOS. 


> Final random note... Strand is working on a way for you to rent a dongle that will temporarily unlock more channels. So you are a small college operation like me and you have a big show coming up and you need a couple dozen movers for a one time gig. You rent a dongle that for a month will allow you that many channels. When the time is over the dongle goes dead and you are back to your old channel count. Very Cool.




That is a very cool thing. ION comes with the ability to upgrade channel counts as well. The base model comes with 1000 channels/outputs. You can then move up to 1500 channels/outputs and then up to 2000 channels/outputs.

I don't know how it would be any different for an ION to to this, as it gets it's channel count from a dongle inside of the desk as well. But it is a really great little feature.


----------



## jmabray (Feb 16, 2008)

gafftaper said:


> You miss the point about the backup system to Derek. Unlike the shows that come through your place. I can't afford to have a couple of rack mounted versions of the console that take over if anything goes crazy. However it's not very expensive to have a PC sitting nearby on the network. I'll make it standard procedure to have the the PC watching the show and following along. That way if anything happens it's just a matter of swapping the dongle... something that can be done in seconds. Again it's something that's been available to high end users for years at a high end price. Now a similar solution is available to lower end users at a very reasonable price.



When you purchase an ION console and register it with the factory, you get a dongle shipped to you that is a Client Dongle for free. This is a dongle that allows a laptop computer running EOS/ION software to log into the desk and not only see what the desk is doing, but also control the rig just like you were sitting at the desk.

I'll be honest that I don't know how it deals with the ability to function as a backup console, but I can ask the question on Monday and find out. 

If you are interested, let me know.

Also - don't get me wrong here. I am not trying to knock Strand. I like alot of their new product, I just want to educate everyone as to what the ETC product will do. While it is true that work for an ETC representative, I am, first and foremost, a lighting controls geek and love to see all the new functions that are coming out in the new desks. Strand's "Compute linear" or what ever it is that it is called is a pretty neat little function. I think that the competition is great and am looking forward to what comes down the line in the next few years.


----------



## thirdoctive (Feb 16, 2008)

Gafftaper, it's go to see you excited about your console. There is still a lot of work to be done with the palette but as you now know Strand is really behind it. Read back through the post on the Strand forum and you will find other cool ways to use the console.


----------



## gafftaper (Feb 16, 2008)

Jmabray... didn't realize ION was that low of price... I thought it was up in the $10k-$15k range with Jr... also didn't realize it's the EOS software. Forgive me I haven't actually seen an ION yet. Sounds like both manufacturers have the right idea with the one software multiple platforms approach. Although Strand has the lead with 7 consoles running the same software. ETC should either expand or come up with a bunch of different wing panels. 

As for the backup/alternate console with Strand. Like everyone else, the ole software is available for free and you can run it on all the machines you want on the network. I can run cues wirelessly from my office on my laptop. The key is you need one machine to have the magic dongle that unlocks the system. So that dongle stays on the main desk, but if it has a problem then all you do is plug that dongle into another computer on the network and you are good to go from there. Apparently the ability to watch the network and the ability to run the network remotely are both options you pay for with strand. It would make sense that ETC's system would work similarly. 

With both ETC and Strand the channel count is purely a matter of how much you pay for and you can easily unlock more by buying an upgrade. The cool thing would be if they do work out a reasonably priced temporary upgrade. 

Thirdoctive, I'm really happy with the console. I was a big fan of Horizon and Marquee but a little afraid of going that route since it was a small independent company. Since the be buyout, I'm getting the same product but with a much larger company. 

A few more random thoughts on stuff I like about my new Strand Console:

I love the way the Horizon software deals with concepts and not with DMX values. For those that don't know, with an intelligent light you choose a color, and the console thinks about it in terms of the color, not in terms of DMX settings on that instrument. So if you have to change from a Mac to a VL the console will do the work and create the same color for you. Pan and Tilt are in degrees, Iris is in % open, Gobo Rotators are clockwise/counter clockwise and RPMs... real world concepts not hard to master values. Any of the position settings are all easily transfered between instruments you just make sure that they point to the same place at 0/0 and the console will make any needed adjustments. 

Oh and hows this. Let's say you have moving light that pan's 360 and another that pan's 540. If you were to simply assign their pan control to one slider and bring it to full they would both spin at different rates. The Strand software knows this and will adjust speeds so they match and move at the same rate. 

Another cool Horizon concept that some may not know about is how it tracks moving lights. If you go from point A to B on an older console the moving light will create an arc as it travels there not a straight line. The Horizon software does the math and makes it move in a straight line by generating a whole bunch of tiny pan and tilt movements. 

There is a set of "S" soft key buttons and a set of "M" buttons. The M buttons were macro triggers on the first addition of the software. In the new version they are secondary level soft key buttons. My trainer seemed to think that may not be permanent. It seemed like a poor change to make to me. My feeling is if they need a second set of soft keys what about hold down Shift and press the same soft keys? Don't just toast all the macro buttons. Either that or make it an option in the setup menu so if you like macros you can use them one way and if you don't you can use them another way. 

Another thing I haven't heard people say about the Palettes is that there are some nice effects generator things pre-programed in. Stuff like circles, ballyhoo's, chases, etc... Makes it really easy to throw a little flash and trash in. I know Jr. has this feature. Does ION? 

I was a little critical of the need to use they keyboard from what I saw in demos in the past. However, yesterday my trainer almost never used the keyboard or the mouse. ETC made a big deal about how their desks don't require the mouse/keyboard. But from what I can see the Strand really doesn't either. Although it's a nice feature for naming fixtures or doing a text search for a gel color in the color matching features.

I'll probably keep rambling on here as I think of interesting new things to report about the console and software.


----------



## soundlight (Feb 16, 2008)

gafftaper said:


> Another thing I haven't heard people say about the Palettes is that there are some nice effects generator things pre-programed in. Stuff like circles, ballyhoo's, chases, etc... Makes it really easy to throw a little flash and trash in. I know Jr. has this feature. Does ION?



Yes, Ion has a very nice shape generator. I experimented with it in the OLE, and I really like it. It's a very nice feature for a console in its price range.


----------



## jmabray (Feb 16, 2008)

gafftaper said:


> Jmabray... didn't realize ION was that low of price... I thought it was up in the $10k-$15k range with Jr... also didn't realize it's the EOS software.



I actually believe that a base version of the congo desk can be had for around the same cost (or at least in the neighborhood) but that won't get you a training session on the desk. What you are mostly paying for with that 10-15k is for a factory certified tech to come out and spend a day or a day and a half with you going over all of the functions of the desk and how it works and everything.


> Forgive me I haven't actually seen an ION yet. Sounds like both manufacturers have the right idea with the one software multiple platforms approach. Although Strand has the lead with 7 consoles running the same software. ETC should either expand or come up with a bunch of different wing panels.



There are 3 different versions of wing panels for the ION. A 2x10, a 2x20 and a 1x20. The 2by's mount on the sides of the desk and can either mount directly to the desk whereby they get their power and data from the desk, or mount as a USB connection to the back of the desk with a seperate power supply. Th 1by mounts in a slot at the top of the desk so that in spaces where there are really tight quarters, you can still keep the same 19" wide footprint of the desk. You can attach up to 6 
wings of any flavor to the desk at this point. That gives you a desk with 240 faders (but it's really really long)

The beauty of them being USB devices, is that when you are running a client desk (laptop) like we talked about earlier, you can plug that fader wing into the laptop and get it to output data to the system.


> As for the backup/alternate console with Strand. Like everyone else, the ole software is available for free and you can run it on all the machines you want on the network. I can run cues wirelessly from my office on my laptop. The key is you need one machine to have the magic dongle that unlocks the system. So that dongle stays on the main desk, but if it has a problem then all you do is plug that dongle into another computer on the network and you are good to go from there. Apparently the ability to watch the network and the ability to run the network remotely are both options you pay for with strand. It would make sense that ETC's system would work similarly.
> With both ETC and Strand the channel count is purely a matter of how much you pay for and you can easily unlock more by buying an upgrade. The cool thing would be if they do work out a reasonably priced temporary upgrade.
> Thirdoctive, I'm really happy with the console. I was a big fan of Horizon and Marquee but a little afraid of going that route since it was a small independent company. Since the be buyout, I'm getting the same product but with a much larger company.
> A few more random thoughts on stuff I like about my new Strand Console:
> I love the way the Horizon software deals with concepts and not with DMX values. For those that don't know, with an intelligent light you choose a color, and the console thinks about it in terms of the color, not in terms of DMX settings on that instrument. So if you have to change from a Mac to a VL the console will do the work and create the same color for you. Pan and Tilt are in degrees, Iris is in % open, Gobo Rotators are clockwise/counter clockwise and RPMs... real world concepts not hard to master values. Any of the position settings are all easily transfered between instruments you just make sure that they point to the same place at 0/0 and the console will make any needed adjustments.



Ion deals with those fixtures in the same way. Pan and tilt are in degrees available. So if a desk goes 540 degrees rotation is goes from +270 to -270 passing through 0 along the way. Color actually deals with the color that the fixture comes with. It is part of the library information about the fixture. If you want to change the color in the fixture, you can always edit the color wheel information about that particular fixture and have it available on your encoders. If your fixture is a CYM color mixing fixture, you have full access to a color picker as well as a full Gel library. Meaning you can tell your CYM fixture to mix to R80 to match an blue wash that you have on stage and it will match it.

The EOS encoder section is really great. If you haven't seen it up close and personal, you really should take a look at it. The encoders are magnetic clutched so that you click on them and they go from coarse to fine adjustments. When they do this you can actually feel a difference in the way the encoders spin. I.E. in coarse mode, a color encoder "clicks" into each frame. You feel is notch into the full frame of the color. You want a split color, click the encoder, put it in Fine mode, and it will spin in as much of the split color as you want. 

Plus the display near the encoders is a touch screen as well. So if you want, you can open up a window that displays all of your gobo choices (as an image) right there. You touch the one you want, and it goes into the gobo frame.



> Oh and hows this. Let's say you have moving light that pan's 360 and another that pan's 540. If you were to simply assign their pan control to one slider and bring it to full they would both spin at different rates. The Strand software knows this and will adjust speeds so they match and move at the same rate.
> Another cool Horizon concept that some may not know about is how it tracks moving lights. If you go from point A to B on an older console the moving light will create an arc as it travels there not a straight line. The Horizon software does the math and makes it move in a straight line by generating a whole bunch of tiny pan and tilt movements.



This was the whole "Compute Linear" thing that I was talking about in the other post. A pretty cool feature. I hear that ION/EOS will have something like this, but I haven't seen it yet.

What is does have, however, is the ability to apply curves. Ok no big deal, even an express can do this to dimmers. But in EOS/ION you could also apply those same curves to cues now. So if you want to see a moving light move happen onstage, but you would like to see the light move slowly at the first part of the cue, then speed up through the middle part, and then move slowly again as it nears the completion point, you apply a slow bottom and top curve to the cue and it does just that.

You can also apply discrete timing to any particular attribute in a cue, down to a channel level basis. So, for instance, you want a light to pop on and then see the move happen 10 seconds and see the color fade from blue to red in the middle 5 seconds of that cue, it is all done in one cue now, as opposed to the 5 or 6 that is would have taken previously. You put a 0 time on the intensity attribute of that channel in that cue, a 10 count on the focus attribute, and a 5 count with a delay of 2.5 seconds on the color attribute on that cue and it does it all just like you want it to.



> There is a set of "S" soft key buttons and a set of "M" buttons. The M buttons were macro triggers on the first addition of the software. In the new version they are secondary level soft key buttons. My trainer seemed to think that may not be permanent. It seemed like a poor change to make to me. My feeling is if they need a second set of soft keys what about hold down Shift and press the same soft keys? Don't just toast all the macro buttons. Either that or make it an option in the setup menu so if you like macros you can use them one way and if you don't you can use them another way.
> Another thing I haven't heard people say about the Palettes is that there are some nice effects generator things pre-programed in. Stuff like circles, ballyhoo's, chases, etc... Makes it really easy to throw a little flash and trash in. I know Jr. has this feature. Does ION?



As pointed out before, yes there is an effects engine on both the ION and the EOS.


> I was a little critical of the need to use they keyboard from what I saw in demos in the past. However, yesterday my trainer almost never used the keyboard or the mouse. ETC made a big deal about how their desks don't require the mouse/keyboard. But from what I can see the Strand really doesn't either. Although it's a nice feature for naming fixtures or doing a text search for a gel color in the color matching features.
> I'll probably keep rambling on here as I think of interesting new things to report about the console and software.



You're right. ETC does make a big deal of that. It is a big shift away from the way some desks used to work, and a very good thing IMHO. You can spend way too much time finding the mouse, then finding the mouse cursor, and then moving it to where you want to when you are programming on a mouse intensive desk.

There are some things that you need the Mouse for with the ION that you don't with the EOS. But if you have touch screens with your ION, those pretty much go away as well. 

Again all this is great for the end user. With the buyout of Strand, Genlyte has decided to pump some real money into the brand, which is a good thing all around. Better competition makes for better products.


----------



## derekleffew (Feb 16, 2008)

jmabray said:


> As pointed out before, yes there is an effects engine on both the ION and the EOS.


There may well be an effects generator, but the term: Effects Engine™ is a trademark of FPS/HES.


----------



## gafftaper (Feb 17, 2008)

jmabray said:


> Color actually deals with the color that the fixture comes with. It is part of the library information about the fixture. If you want to change the color in the fixture, you can always edit the color wheel information about that particular fixture and have it available on your encoders. If your fixture is a CYM color mixing fixture, you have full access to a color picker as well as a full Gel library. Meaning you can tell your CYM fixture to mix to R80 to match an blue wash that you have on stage and it will match it.



My understanding of the Palette software is that it doesn't care if you are using CMY or RGB. You can actually hit a button to jump back and forth between RGB and CMY space. All four gel company lines as well as several ways of looking at the color spectrum are available to you in the color picker. Plus the goofy upload a picture feature... not sure why that's so cool but it's there. You can text search Manufacturer's gel book type in Pink and every gel with the word pink will appear from the selected manufacturer. My trainer kept stressing that the console only cares about the end result color. Everything else just gets manipulated by the software to that color. 

By the way I'm not trying to start a console feature war with you Jmabray. It's actually quite fascinating to me how similar Ion and Palette really are. It sounds like more than ever before it's going to be a case where you need to sit down and try out both consoles to see what you like best as the software will do very similar things.

It'll also be interesting to see how the software updates play out. If Strand really does keep releasing new software every few months (as my trainer thought would happen) and ETC does the same we could have a very rapidly evolving group of consoles here. Let's face it for the first time the desk is no longer particularly important, it's all about the computer inside and it's software. We could see a rapidly changing console with a variety of new features and abilities ever few months. One manufacturer comes out with a cool concept what's to stop the other from adding it into their next update. Things could get really tough for the manufacturers to compete but the result could be great for the consumers. How many years have we hated a particular feature of a console but been stuck with it in the past. Now we are looking at a world where if you get enough of your friends to request a console feature it can be added in the next software update. That's Very cool.


----------



## jmabray (Feb 17, 2008)

gafftaper said:


> My understanding of the Palette software is that it doesn't care if you are using CMY or RGB. You can actually hit a button to jump back and forth between RGB and CMY space.



Actually EOS and ION both save the color data as HSI, (Hue Saturation Intensity) data. Those values are always the same regardless of the manufacturer or anything like that.


> All four gel company lines as well as several ways of looking at the color spectrum are available to you in the color picker. Plus the goofy upload a picture feature... not sure why that's so cool but it's there. You can text search Manufacturer's gel book type in Pink and every gel with the word pink will appear from the selected manufacturer. My trainer kept stressing that the console only cares about the end result color. Everything else just gets manipulated by the software to that color.
> By the way I'm not trying to start a console feature war with you Jmabray. It's actually quite fascinating to me how similar Ion and Palette really are. It sounds like more than ever before it's going to be a case where you need to sit down and try out both consoles to see what you like best as the software will do very similar things.
> It'll also be interesting to see how the software updates play out. If Strand really does keep releasing new software every few months (as my trainer thought would happen) and ETC does the same we could have a very rapidly evolving group of consoles here. Let's face it for the first time the desk is no longer particularly important, it's all about the computer inside and it's software. We could see a rapidly changing console with a variety of new features and abilities ever few months. One manufacturer comes out with a cool concept what's to stop the other from adding it into their next update. Things could get really tough for the manufacturers to compete but the result could be great for the consumers. How many years have we hated a particular feature of a console but been stuck with it in the past. Now we are looking at a world where if you get enough of your friends to request a console feature it can be added in the next software update. That's Very cool.



Yeah, I am not trying to start a console war either, just educating you, and by extension, everyone who reads this thread, about some of the features of the ION. ETC has already been on a schedule of releasing software every three to four months. It's been pretty exciting to try and stay on top of all the changes that have gone from version 1.0 to 1.3 (where we are now). From what I have been told, 1.4 is going to be a major feature release as well, so it will be interesting to see what everything is going to be. 

You are right though, most of the features are going to be similar from console to console. It really is going to come down to how you interface with the desk. I know ETC has done a great deal of research in this area as it has gone about the development of this new line of desks. (I'm not saying that Strand hasn't, I just don't know as much about their process as I do ETC's.) 
You take a test drive of each of the desks and decide which one works best for you. Like I said before, It really is going to be an interesting next few years.


----------



## derekleffew (Feb 17, 2008)

gafftaper said:


> Let's face it for the first time the desk is no longer particularly important, it's all about the computer inside and it's software. We could see a rapidly changing console with a variety of new features and abilities ever few months. One manufacturer comes out with a cool concept what's to stop the other from adding it into their next update.


If I correctly understand your use of the word "desk" to mean "physical user/programmer/operator interface," I couldn't disagree with you more vehemently. Once I've learned where all of a console's buttons, switches, wheels, faders, and encoders are located, and what each does, I don't want any changes. New features added in software updates are acceptable and desirable, as long as the prior functions and methods of the console don't change. I don't want buttons re-labeled or re-purposed. 

I didn't mind one bit that there was ONE very prominently labeled button on the HogII that never did anything, and would have screamed bloody murder had it been given a useful purpose and renamed. (Anyone? Bueller?)

Every time I sit down at a grandMA that has had a software update, I have to ask someone "What has changed between version v5.761 and v5.900?" Sometimes it's minor (new personalities for fixtures of which I've never heard); sometimes it's major (What! I can now use the USB ports for something other than charging my cellphone?).

Knowing a console's layout to a degree that it becomes muscle memory enables one to be a very time-efficient programmer. I was trying to recall the other day the keystrokes I used to record M*6 ( Derek's Save to Disk) on every Expression-series console I've ever used. It's been at least five years since I've written that macro, but IIRC the steps are: STG REL REL REL SETUP 3 ENTER 1 ENTER ENTER STG. Had the manufacturer changed the order of the menu items for some reason, they would have heard from me!

The ergonomics of the Lighting Control System are the most important determining factor to a user, programmer, or operator. I couldn't care less if the processor is a 286/12 OR a 2x3GHz Dual-Core Intel Xeon. I don't care if the software is written in Israel, Germany, England, Canada, Daneland, or Austin, TX--as long as it has few bugs and *never* crashes.

One Lighting Software of which Gafftaper is found failed me the first time I tried to use it, and in my world, nothing gets a second chance.

I'm looking forward to experiencing both LightPalette/Palette and Eos/Ion, although there's a good possibility I personally will never have the opportunity to use either on a show, professionally. Just my 2¢.


----------



## jmabray (Feb 17, 2008)

Derek - I think that you and gaff are actually saying the same things. His point was, I think, that both of the major theatrical manufacturers are going to have pretty much the exact same features now, where as that wasn't really the case in the past. That it is all about the interface now. In the past the 300 series, for instance, did a some things that the express wouldn't do. Now, with consoles more and more being software driven, that wouldn't be the case as often (or for very long).


----------



## gafftaper (Feb 18, 2008)

jmabray said:


> Derek - I think that you and gaff are actually saying the same things. His point was, I think, that both of the major theatrical manufacturers are going to have pretty much the exact same features now, where as that wasn't really the case in the past. That it is all about the interface now. In the past the 300 series, for instance, did a some things that the express wouldn't do. Now, with consoles more and more being software driven, that wouldn't be the case as often (or for very long).



Exactly. There's now no reason that ETC can have a cool feature that Strand doesn't have... at least not for long. So really the choice between brands for these low to middle end of the market consoles will be more about how you like the overall look and feel of the console and how you like the way the software works. Everything else is just a software update away. 

At the same time Derek's got a really important point about major changes in software. Adding new features in softkey menus is one thing, but if major button features are up in the air (like Strand recently turning macro buttons into secondary soft key buttons). That could be really confusing for the end user. The manufacturers will have to make sure they don't get too carried away with adding features and make it really difficult for us to keep up. It's no big deal to me updating my software on my one console and learning the changes, but for those of you who are out there who work a different console every week, It'll be a nightmare if there are dramatic variations between software versions.


----------



## DarSax (Feb 18, 2008)

You talking about the "flying pig" key Derek? It did....something, but I sure as hell never used it.


----------



## fredthe (Feb 19, 2008)

gafftaper said:


> My only remaining complaint is the DMX nodes require Power over Ethernet. Of course my system didn't get designed with a hub that has PoE built in so I have to add it with PoE injectors.


This looks like a signifigant oversight on someone's part...

When the local HS did it's theater rebuild (completed almost a year ago) with a Strand Light Palette, the spec from the theater consultant included the PoE unit. (The spec was actually written for ETC gear, but they ended up with Strand.) Either the consultant, or the dealer should have caught this.

One question to ask... how do they expect you (or whoever is responsible) to sign-off that the nodes are functional as delivered. Perhaps you should just report them as defective, since they clearly don't work as delivered 

Oh, and they've already used the trick of "lying" to the console on several shows... works great!


----------



## SteveB (Feb 19, 2008)

gafftaper said:


> Adding new features in softkey menus is one thing, but if major button features are up in the air (like Strand recently turning macro buttons into secondary soft key buttons). That could be really confusing for the end user. .



ETC did this on the Express when they added some ML functionality to the console, changing the Dimmer key to Fixture. 

I know we need a Fixture key, but I argued that 90% of the folks using that console at the time weren't using ML's and now a useful hard key was soft. 

So, OK, I got used to it and it was no big deal as Dimmer stayed the same on the RFU, but then they changed it again if you went Emphasis. The location of the dimmer key is soft as well in Patch, which is just plain dumb. All to make way for ML's.

Dimmer is now in buried 2 or 3 pages into softkeys and it's a PITA, truly. 

I agree with Derek, that some core features of a console do not want to change with software releases - dimmer access being one of them. I've had many pointed comments to say about the development of the Eos and Ion, and about how the very basic stuff is still being used, like dimmers. Can't seem to ever get an answer out of ETC as to how the RRFU on ION works and does it allow multiple dimmer call up. I'm going to have to find time to read thru the bloody manuals.

FWIW and as comment on Strand vs. Ion/Eos, Strand has seemingly developed an entire line of consoles that emulate - hell, they copy what ETC has had for years - Sub Pallette (Insight), small and large 2 scene (Express 2 scenes), as well as consoles without faders (Expression/Obsession). ETC in the mean time has gone, what I think is a smarter route and built 2 basic consoles in each OS Syntax (Eos and Congo) with add-on fader panels. Granted that Strand continues the concept of linear software across the line, which even ETC did not do with Smartfade. Go figure. 

Note that the Eos/Ion/Congo add on panels are NOT cheap. To replace a 48 ch. 2 scene Express ($7,000 list) means an Ion ($6700), 2-2x20 fader wings ($3400 ea - $6800 total), plus maybe a 1x20 @ $860 - or about $14,000. All to get a console that has manual handles, a concept that David Lincecum, the Marketing Manager at ETC commented on, on the ETC Consoles Forum - snip:

"The ultimate decision - supported by market research - was that 2 scene mode is primarily a teaching tool on any system over 24 channels. Now granted - 24 channels is a debated point - but that was the decision. We ultimately believe that 2 scene mode is more difficult and less dependable on any production over the 24 channel size."

Interesting comment.

My late to the game $.02

Steve B.


----------



## gafftaper (Feb 19, 2008)

fredthe said:


> This looks like a signifigant oversight on someone's part...
> When the local HS did it's theater rebuild (completed almost a year ago) with a Strand Light Palette, the spec from the theater consultant included the PoE unit. (The spec was actually written for ETC gear, but they ended up with Strand.) Either the consultant, or the dealer should have caught this.
> One question to ask... how do they expect you (or whoever is responsible) to sign-off that the nodes are functional as delivered. Perhaps you should just report them as defective, since they clearly don't work as delivered
> Oh, and they've already used the trick of "lying" to the console on several shows... works great!



This is probably one of the many things that got screwed up because of budget cuts initially followed by ordering later on our own. I was warned by my local Strand sales rep about the PoE need but we assumed that there would be a PoE Router in the system that would take care of the problem. On the flip side if the nodes are cut from the package there's no need to pay twice as much for a PoE router. So I got the squeeze in the middle. No one I can really complain to about it. Other than to say in general it's silly to sell them without the power supply in the first place.


----------



## gafftaper (Feb 19, 2008)

Steve another interesting factor that many of us aren't used to yet is the mouse and keyboard. I noticed in training that in patching for example, there are times that you could either chose a one or two soft key process to access a menu to type in a command... or you could just double click a box and input a number. Or instead of selecting a group of instruments by typing in a long string of numbers it's hold down control on the keyboard and click them all with the mouse. My initial impression of Palette Software is that a mastery of mouse options may save a good deal of keystrokes. Not exactly sure how that works in the ETC console world but I got the feeling that I'll definitely be using the mouse more on my Strand. 

Also have to say that my wireless PDA RFU kicks ETC's cordless phone remote butt! I have basic keypad control, submaster control, view of the instrument grid of what's on, cue playback control, an instrument check feature that turns them all on in order, even a flash instrument feature. Lot's of cool things. I know ETC's logic is that if you drop the PDA it's real expensive to replace. Where you can always get a phone for $20. But those phone's have such limited features. Last I heard it sounded like ETC was going to stay phone only on some of their consoles. Is that right?


----------



## SteveB (Feb 19, 2008)

gafftaper said:


> I was warned by my local Strand sales rep about the PoE need but we assumed that there would be a PoE Router in the system that would take care of the problem. On the flip side if the nodes are cut from the package there's no need to pay twice as much for a PoE router. So I got the squeeze in the middle. No one I can really complain to about it. Other than to say in general it's silly to sell them without the power supply in the first place.



I ran into this 2 years ago when I spec'd and purchased some ML's with an Emphasis and 2 - Net2 2 port nodes. Unlike my first set of 2 ports on the original system purchase, the new nodes did not come with wall wart power supplies.

In reality, it was cheaper to purchase and add-in a PoE switcher then to pay for 2 power supplies. 

In practice, the PoE makes it much more flexible as you do not have to find AC power for the node(s). 

One caution though, at least with ETC devices, is to isolate and label the PoE ports from any standard port and to have the ability to patch the ports to and from the PoE and the regular non-powered ports so as to not attempt a connection into the network on a powered port with a device that doesn't want to see power - such as a laptop.

My Net2 patch bay has all the connections for powered ports in blue Cat5 cables, with non-powered ports in black. 

Steve B.


----------



## derekleffew (Feb 19, 2008)

SteveB said:


> ...All to get a console that has manual handles, a concept that David Lincecum, the Marketing Manager at ETC commented on, on the ETC Consoles Forum - snip:
> 
> "The ultimate decision - supported by market research - was that 2 scene mode is primarily a teaching tool on any system over 24 channels. Now granted - 24 channels is a debated point - but that was the decision. We ultimately believe that 2 scene mode is more difficult and less dependable on any production over the 24 channel size."
> 
> Interesting comment.


I have to agree and disagree with Mr. Lincecum. Yes, my Ward-Leonard 60 dimmer, 5 scene preset, which required 4 people to run, was a great educational tool, but I see no need what so ever for any two-scene preset system today. The Insight3x remains one of my favorite ETC consoles. Why limit oneself to one channel per handle, when that handle can be a submaster, look, or cuestack? I've busked many a show on a HogII using the wing as a single-scene preset. Give the Concert LD all his PAR Washes on the wing and I do the movers on the main. If he's nice to me, I'll even let him push the [DBO] key sometimes.


DarSax said:


> You talking about the "flying pig" key Derek? It did....something, but I sure as hell never used it.


 The [Pig] key is one of the most used. It acts as a modifier when held while pressing another key, just like [shift] or [ctrl] on a personal computer. Keep trying.


----------



## SteveB (Feb 19, 2008)

derekleffew said:


> The Insight3x remains one of my favorite ETC consoles. Why limit oneself to one channel per handle, when that handle can be a submaster, look, or cuestack? I've busked many a show on a HogII using the wing as a single-scene preset. .



I had a conversation with David Lincecum a year or so during which he told me that when he worked at the ETC LA office, they would push the Insight III to the TV studios, to no avail, as they all wanted Expressions. This was a concept he too could not understand as the Insight seemingly had better and faster control. 

I go back and forth with the need for a large 2 scene, as it's not as often that I'm actually running in 2 scene, as opposed to simply using 40 or more manual handles with a lot of subs. I did a show 2 weeks ago, no company designer, my design and adaptation, on 74 manual faders. Building from faders was ton's faster then using a keypad, as it's all laid out and labeled in front of you. I got very good at running in single scene mode "Holding" a look on a sub and then building a new Go To look on the manual faders. Similar to how the Colortran Scene Master worked, and I'm certain the Ion or Congo Jr's with fader wings can do the same. I also did a show last night with a visiting LD on a Grand MA Light. 2nd time we've seen this version and it was a cued show with statics as well as a dozen ML's and LED Pars. I went to the MA website this morning and was saddened to see that they do not offer fader wing expansion. 

So maybe David at ETC is correct that the day of large 2 scene is over.

That brings us back somewhat to the original topic and where Strand is heading, as it's my opinion that the Strand console series forces the user to lock themselves in to a particular type of console - 120 subs, OR, 48 ch. 2 scene OR Classic cueing console OR ML control. Seemingly a step backwards to the features that Marquee offered with it's add-on wing panels added to a basic console series, so it will be interesting to see which console manufacturer ends up with the next generation high school market.

Steve B.


----------



## icewolf08 (Feb 19, 2008)

SteveB said:


> That brings us back somewhat to the original topic and where Strand is heading, as it's my opinion that the Strand console series forces the user to lock themselves in to a particular type of console - 120 subs, OR, 48 ch. 2 scene OR Classic cueing console OR ML control. Seemingly a step backwards to the features that Marquee offered with it's add-on wing panels added to a basic console series, so it will be interesting to see which console manufacturer ends up with the next generation high school market.
> Steve B.


This isn't really true at all. Why? USB. Plain and simple. As we talked about earlier in the thread, both ETC and Strand are working to add the features that the end user wants into the software. So, if enough Strand users wanted wings all Strand would have to do is produce the wing and update the software. 

On the other hand, ETC is saying the user has two choices, EOS or ION. ION has no standard faders, you HAVE to buy a wing if you want faders. EOS has 10 faders, if you want more you have to buy ION wings for it.

Then if we look back at Strand and all the choices, all have at least 12 faders, and all have a keypad. If you want 128 faders and the functionality of a normal cue stack, you can have that on the SubPalette. It is all the same software (and yes, I know that EOS and ION run the same software too).

I think the big thing is that as shows (even in high schools) get more complex, it is getting less feasible to run them without recording cues. I am not arguing for or against either manufacturer, just pointing out facts. Also pointing out that yeah, I think the era of the physical faders is declining.


----------



## SteveB (Feb 19, 2008)

icewolf08 said:


> This isn't really true at all. Why? USB. Plain and simple. As we talked about earlier in the thread, both ETC and Strand are working to add the features that the end user wants into the software. So, if enough Strand users wanted wings all Strand would have to do is produce the wing and update the software.
> On the other hand, ETC is saying the user has two choices, EOS or ION. ION has no standard faders, you HAVE to buy a wing if you want faders. EOS has 10 faders, if you want more you have to buy ION wings for it.
> Then if we look back at Strand and all the choices, all have at least 12 faders, and all have a keypad. If you want 128 faders and the functionality of a normal cue stack, you can have that on the SubPalette. It is all the same software (and yes, I know that EOS and ION run the same software too).
> I think the big thing is that as shows (even in high schools) get more complex, it is getting less feasible to run them without recording cues. I am not arguing for or against either manufacturer, just pointing out facts. Also pointing out that yeah, I think the era of the physical faders is declining.



Alex, the choices you and I have described is exactly what both ETC and Strand are presenting to the buyers. Have you or anyone here seen any info that Strand is going to offer fader panels down the road ?. I haven't, and while that's not to say they can't, why didn't they do so already ? as it would sure seem to be a HUGE selling point. They have created a LOT of new hardware and add'l wings don't seem to be the route they are taking. 

What I find interesting, and the point I was trying to get across, is that prior to Genlyte buying Strand, the Marquee line had exactly what ETC is offering, namely a basic "Head" with add-on gear - Fader wing, Button box, etc... with the concept being that the user could easily tailor the system to their needs. The current line out of Strand seemingly indicates a marketing strategy that put ETC where it is right now, all the while ETC is going a different route. 

The bottom line is how does it all price out as apples for apples. I'm guessing that the Ion with the extra fader wings added in, is going to be pricier then comparable Strand and it will then remain to be seen if the legendary ETC tech support is enough of a selling point to non-professional users to keep Strand from owning that end of the market.

SB


----------



## jmabray (Feb 19, 2008)

Wow, I go out of town and away from the computer for the day and there is a lot to talk about.....


> Also have to say that my wireless PDA RFU kicks ETC's cordless phone remote butt! I have basic keypad control, submaster control, view of the instrument grid of what's on, cue playback control, an instrument check feature that turns them all on in order, even a flash instrument feature. Lot's of cool things. I know ETC's logic is that if you drop the PDA it's real expensive to replace. Where you can always get a phone for $20. But those phone's have such limited features. Last I heard it sounded like ETC was going to stay phone only on some of their consoles. Is that right?



Not at all. The Phone remote is a basic remote that comes enabled on the Congo line and may, one day, be enabled on the ION (There is a jack there, but it is not currently enabled in the software.) However, this is by no means the entirety of the remote control options for the ETC line of consoles, just the most cost effective. It is there to provide a low cost option to those who can't afford a full remote. ETC still has the CRRFU (Congo Radio Remote Focus Unit), the RRFU (for the Express/ion line) and the RFR (Radio Focus Remote). The Radio Focus remote is a wireless device with an LCD screen, 2 encoders, and a host of keys and softkeys. The screen is a (I believe) 4 line LCD display that is, while pretty small, very readable. (I was a doubter at first, until I saw it in action.) This RFR is a NET3 device. This means that it can (or will) not only be able to plug into the desk (via USB) it can also plug in to any lighting network tap in your system. The two encoders on the side can be used to access several things, including ML attributes like pan and tilt....


> "The ultimate decision - supported by market research - was that 2 scene mode is primarily a teaching tool on any system over 24 channels. Now granted - 24 channels is a debated point - but that was the decision. We ultimately believe that 2 scene mode is more difficult and less dependable on any production over the 24 channel size."



The basic premise here is that most people were not using a 2 scene console as a 2 scene console. More often, they were using the channel faders to set the look and then record it into memory. Then play back the recorded cue. The same thing can be accomplished with the ION desk with one fader wing. (remember here that those fader wings are pageable, a 2x10 has 20 total faders over 15 pages, for a total of 300 or so.) Right now they are only submasters, but what those faders become in future software releases remains to be seen. I have heard talk of playbacks of course, but also, giving the end user the ability to make them channels if they want....

Also - on the ION (and EOS as well) there is a module you can load on a screen that gives you pageable virtual sliders. So truth be told, you really don't even need a fader wing. (No its not the most elegant solution, but it is possible.)


> On the other hand, ETC is saying the user has two choices, EOS or ION. ION has no standard faders, you HAVE to buy a wing if you want faders. EOS has 10 faders, if you want more you have to buy ION wings for it.



Not really. ETC is saying that you have multiple choices. For your tracking console you have the EOS and ION series. For a preset style console, you have the Congo series. For your low cost alternatives, you have the SmartFade line of consoles. While no one manufacturer can be all things to everyone, I tend to think that ETC has done a pretty good job of giving an end user a lot of different options to choose from. (I'm not saying that other manufacturer's haven't done so, just that ETC has done a pretty good job of it.)


> One caution though, at least with ETC devices, is to isolate and label the PoE ports from any standard port and to have the ability to patch the ports to and from the PoE and the regular non-powered ports so as to not attempt a connection into the network on a powered port with a device that doesn't want to see power - such as a laptop.



Actually,you should be able to plug anything into that port and not have to worry about it. The power is carried down pins that are not used in a standard switch port. They will just ignore the power completely. 


Ok I think that I have wandered all over the map here and picked and chosen through various replies. If I see any more later I may chime in more, but I think that I have rambled enough for now.


----------



## gafftaper (Feb 20, 2008)

I was told a while back that there were no plans to add any modules to the Strand Line... I was wondering about an optional encoder wheel module. So far that seems to be true although there are plenty of free USB ports on the console to do anything they want in the future. 


While I agree that there is no need for a 2 scene preset in the modern world. There is a huge need in the typical high school and lower world where no one knows how to use the system. They want one slider per channel and they just want to be able to go in and turn on 3 specific lights without any training on the scary keypad. I was stunned a couple years ago to drop by the local high school to discover an express being used as a 2 scene preset because no one knew how to record a cue or a submaster. Never overestimate the poor quality tech that is happening out there in MANY schools. A Strand Preset Palette is now the top of the line in that market. I think it's a very poor move for ETC not to write the software to enable that option for ION. There will be many projects that go with Strand or something from the cheaper console market instead.


----------

