# Church stealing things



## pflipper1 (Mar 8, 2010)

My high school shares its performing arts center with a church and they are suppose to use their own things but we keep missing cords and mics and other things. Then a couple weeks later somethings will show back up. What can we do to stop them from taking our stuff?


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## Footer (Mar 8, 2010)

Same thing every venue does that is a multi use space. Mark and inventory everything. Everything gets stored locked up and does not come out unless it is inventoried going out and inventoried when it comes back. Blatently mark everything. I refer to this as "bleeding" over all of your gear. Get a color, and mark EVERYTHING with that color, down to every last cable, safety cable, color frame, stageweight. The visiting group does not leave until everything is accounted for. Many places that have a cage will put someone in the cage for a call that is just in charge of inventory.


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## Reynolds (Mar 8, 2010)

First of all, do you know it is them that is moving your equipment? If you go to them and they did not take any of your gear, all sorts of nasty issues could arise.

A simple way to test if they are physically removing the equipment, set aside an area for all cables, mics, etc., clearly label each item's location, and devise a quick inventorying system (if feasible). Make sure your crew uses the system, and leave a note asking anyone who uses the equipment to make sure it is returned to the rack after they are done.

If you are able to determine that the church is taking your equipment, DO NOT APPROACH THEM YOURSELF. Speak with your teacher, because he/she may have to go through official channels, depending on how your school works.

If the problem persists, use a spare closet and lock up your equipment when any outside event is coming in.

Good luck.


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## SHARYNF (Mar 9, 2010)

Sometimes this is simply a matter of the folks helping the church group finish up have no idea of what equipment belongs to what group. I usually get a combination of colors that are painted on, make it a bit more difficult to "rebrand" if in fact someone is "acquiring" your stuff. The fact that it shows up later leads me to believe that it is folks trying to be helpful to the church and not realizing that there is some gear that is theirs and some that is yours

Sharyn


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## Footer (Mar 9, 2010)

SHARYNF said:


> Sometimes this is simply a matter of the folks helping the church group finish up have no idea of what equipment belongs to what group. I usually get a combination of colors that are painted on, make it a bit more difficult to "rebrand" if in fact someone is "acquiring" your stuff. The fact that it shows up later leads me to believe that it is folks trying to be helpful to the church and not realizing that there is some gear that is theirs and some that is yours
> 
> Sharyn



Agreed with Sharyn. I don't think anyone is being malicious here, its probably a pretty simple mistake. It happens all the time in most production houses. What you really have to do is do clear lines, ie "All mics are the guests", "all cable is the house's". Don't leave your stuff laying around and it won't get picked up.


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## museav (Mar 9, 2010)

I agree that it is likely honest mistakes. It may also be that someone higher up agreed to let them borrow some small items. One of those situations where you may need to approach it carefully.

The idea of marking things is a very good one, it might even help to involve the church in that effort so that they can 'buy into' what is done and have a clear understanding of, and perhaps input into, any labeling or inventory system developed.


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## gafftaper (Mar 9, 2010)

First of all, whether it's a church or not makes no difference. This happens everywhere the offending group could be an orchestra, jazz band, or old ladies' choir. While it seems especially hypocritical that a church is walking off with stuff, the real problem is you have poor inventory control in place and a poor or improperly enforced rental agreement. 

The question is what does the agreement between your school and the renter say? Are they allowed to use your gear? If yes what gear are you required to provide? Provide what is agreed upon and lock the rest up. As has been said above, make it clear, mark it all. Put it in a specific place for them to use. If a rental group isn't allowed to use it lock it up. If the agreement says they can use anything they want: no problem keep inventory and make sure someone checks it all every time the group leaves. This should be part of the rental agreement and there should be a fee charged for your time to maintain the inventory. 

I'm guessing from the way you describe it that no one from the school or crew is there to supervise while the church is there. That's a poor decision on the part of your building administration. It's also a decision that can be changed the next time the rental agreement is up. So get your teacher to push for more control and supervision on your end. 

In the end the solution is inventory control. Check everything every week as soon as you get there. Then there is no guessing. You KNOW. If the marked gear is not returned to the place where the renters gear is specifically set aside, it gets noted on the inventory check in on Monday. Don't replace any gear missing from this place. Leave a note with the remaining gear saying, "4 cables were not returned last week, this is what remains from the gear you are allowed to use". If they don't take the hint and the gear doesn't get returned have your administration (whoever deals with outside rentals) send them a bill for the cost of replacing missing equipment.


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## museav (Mar 9, 2010)

pflipper1 said:


> Then a couple weeks later somethings will show back up. What can we do to stop them from taking our stuff?


If the church accidentally left a cable there and you did not immediately return it but instead waited until the next time you ran into them would you feel that you stole it from them? If things are getting returned and there is any chance that there disappearing is due to items being inadequately marked or might be related to some other party or event or anything like that, then you probably want to be careful of accusing someone of 'stealing'. I have the feeling that a polite discussion between the right people on how to prevent such problems might resolve this one way or the other.


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## SHARYNF (Mar 9, 2010)

I know where gafftaper is coming from, but unless you have your items locked up and you are absolutely positive that it was all there at the moment the church group arrived and can prove it accusing a group of Stealing is not a good idea.

If you look at shoplifting, unless you have an employee that SAW the person take the item, or a surveillance tape showing the person taking the item, and you then find the item on the person you can be in a lot of trouble from accusing someone of a crime.



Sharyn


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## len (Mar 9, 2010)

pflipper1 said:


> My high school shares its performing arts center with a church and they are suppose to use their own things but we keep missing cords and mics and other things. Then a couple weeks later somethings will show back up. What can we do to stop them from taking our stuff?



Label everything and get some cabinets that lock.


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## Dover (Mar 9, 2010)

I prefer something along the lines of "Unintentional Borrowing". That way nobody is accused of anything other than a mistake. However this industry runs on favors and establishing a cross lending relationship can pay off later when you need that extra SM58 on a weekend. I know that is not exactly the problem you are asking about but it is something to think about. More on topic, labeling is to identify your gear and keep it from mistakenly getting packed up with someone else's. All the hot pink paint in the world is not going to keep some one who really wants to from stealing your gear. For house gear I prefer just a wrap of dark colored e-tape behind the connector on the cables and for hard gear the venues name or initials in spray paint or sharpie, it is clear during setup and strike and unobtrusive on stage during the show.

Dover


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## pflipper1 (Mar 10, 2010)

they have the same lock box keys as we use so we cant lock stuff up. Also, some stuff isnt returned


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## Footer (Mar 10, 2010)

Sounds like either its time to get new locks or to work out a new rental agreement. Let the higher ups know what is missing. It needs to be something that the school bought and they have proof (receipt) that they bought it. If you can't prove it was bought, you got nothing. Make up a list, hand the list over NICELY to the people from the church. Just tell them that "Hey, this stuff is missing, you guys didn't happen to grab it did you?".

You still need to inventory and mark your gear. You still need to inventory it on Friday and again on Monday. I would urge you to push for them to pay someone from the school to be there when they are in there. We had this same thing happening when I was in high school and we had someone there from 6am to 1pm every Sunday to prevent this exact thing.


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## venuetech (Mar 10, 2010)

get a second gear locker, one for the rental and one for educational use.
your teacher gets both keys, the renter gets the one. inventory and mark EVERYTHING and report promptly missing items. be nice, smile and nod.

I agree with Footer the real solution is to have someone paid to assist in the safe operation of the facility.

asking the school rental agent to call the church in mid week because you are desperate for that missing item, will go a long way for your cause.


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## Chris15 (Mar 10, 2010)

OK, let's start by clarifying things...
What sort of school are we talking about. If the school and church are interrelated, then things will be a whole lot harder to resolve...

Is your gear explicitly marked as yours? Cables labelled with name under heatshrink, mics engraved, etc. etc.


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## pflipper1 (Mar 10, 2010)

the church is separate, they are in our pac until they get thier own building. some of the wired mics are engraved, our tech director bought 4 more, because they went missing, and he engraved them. but our cords are not labeled


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## theatre4jc (Mar 10, 2010)

I spent 7 years touring with a Christian group. In and out of churches all the time. That meant the local hired crew was simply volunteers from the church that knew nothing of production but were just willing hands. My cables were very clearly labeled on each end with my company name and the length. All cables. Every time I did an inventory check at the end of a show I ALWAYS had at least one venue (church's) cable in my gear. This was more than likely due to someone from the church not paying attention and putting it in the wrong place. The nights I slipped and did not due inventory the next show I would either be up a cable or two or missing one of my own. Happens all the time. If the items show back up then odds are it is unintentional. In that case labeling and educating the church's load out crew as to what gear belongs to what group would fix that. It will still happen and is inevitable, but when the church's gear is unpacked next Sunday they will see the error and leave it. You would have to be stupid to purposefully steal from a venue that you rent each week, just to have it sit in a trailer waiting for the next Sunday to come up. I doubt that is the case, but it is instead an over-eager volunteer. Has your TD mentioned to the church that the schools name is engraved on the mics? If he has then shame on the church for taking them and not checking, if he has not, and if they own the same mic for their gear...why do you expect them to know the difference? 

I would do like everyone else has suggested, inventory and label your gear. Then have your TD, if employed by the school, talk to the church about inventorying and labeling their gear. IE all churches cables have a blue strip of e-tape and all schools have a red strip of e-tape. That way anyone that is not color blind has no excuse. A labeling system only works properly is both parties do it and follow it. That's why most road houses use this system and EVERY rental production company does it. To attempt to keep their gear where it should be.


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## Kelite (Mar 10, 2010)

theatre4jc said:


> You would have to be stupid to purposefully steal from a venue that you rent each week, just to have it sit in a trailer waiting for the next Sunday to come up. I doubt that is the case, but it is instead an over-eager volunteer.





My guess is the same, for the reasons stated above. It just wouldn't make much sense.


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## museav (Mar 10, 2010)

Does the church rent the PAC, are they paying for the use? Is there any formal rental or use agreement? Does anyone else potentially have access to the PAC and especially the storage locker over the weekend? Do you have any inventory records that document that the equipment was there before the church came in and not after they left? Has anyone discussed this issue with the church, say maybe the first time it happened?

It seems like there are a number of things that could be initiated from the school's side to possibly help resolve the problem without taking an adversarial approach.


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## Anvilx (Mar 10, 2010)

Is it a church that preaches good morals and whatnot? Just checking.


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## SHARYNF (Mar 11, 2010)

This situation seems to be spiraling to the point of drawing and quartering the church members.

We have no idea at what level the OP is, is this a student observing what is going on from one perspective or is the OP the School official responsible for this arrangement.

If it was intentional stealing then the items would not "show up later"

If they are there available for "use" which I would guess is the case and there is a very loose arrangement based on the School and the Church I would still say that this is unintentional and again very likely where there are well meaning church members helping out and have no clue as to what is or is not the churches and probably innocently think that what is being used is the churches. and on the other end the person using these items probably has no idea that they are NOT supposed to use them. IF in fact they are NOT, I have seen situations where a well intentioned person way down the chain of command sees a situation totally out of context and jumps to a conclusion where the "higher ups" have a totally different perspective on the situation

SO:

From my perspective, if you have a facility and you allow others to use the facility and you have readily available various items, they are likely to be used and the typical "user" has no distinction between using the house PA or the House Lighting instruments and Using Mics and Cables. 

If the church is NOT supposed to use these items and is supposed to bring all their own gear, THEN from one perspective it is the Schools responsibility to have the items stored so as not to be readily available.

If this is the case, then the question becomes, is it the church that is at fault for "borrowing items innocently" or is it the schools fault for leaving the items around.

So is it "the church stealing things" from the description I would say not likely. Items that are stolen tend to be gone forever and not re appear

Sharyn


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## mstaylor (Mar 11, 2010)

I did a show a couple of weeks ago in a local church. I was called in at the last second to replace the lead tech whose mother had a sudden attack and he needed to go to the hospital. Since I was filling in I had no idea whose equipment was whose. It was quickly apparent the difference between our stuff and theirs but I was constantly having to show the church volunteers what was theirs and that they shouldn't put it in our pile. 
It was a simple case of them not knowing or understanding how to differentiate between guitar world gear and professional gear. Never mind that both had their own system of marking.


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## CrisCole (Mar 26, 2010)

I agree with everything that has been said. We used to loan our auditorium out to a church, and we ran into the same problem. We simply labeled everthing with a label that include the name of our auditorium as well as the object number. 

It helped when the church purchased 50 new LED lights, as they left them there and we told them that if they kept using our equipment, we were going to use their LEDs. They did, so now we have 50 new LED's that we can use at our leisure. 

Like everyone said, label everything. Make a mastor inventory. Ours was very long, but it worked wonderful. 

Inventories can be very simple to.

SOUND
Microphones and stands
Tri-pod Stand 1--green
Solid Stand 1----red
......
Cords and Cabels
Microphone Cable 1--black
.......
LIGHTS
Gels
34 Chroma Green #121
10 Sea Blue #403

You get the idea. It can be tedious, but it is necesary.


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