# Stage brakes and slipping construction standards



## Stoickthelesser (Sep 14, 2017)

I remember when I was a baby tech, it was possible to get real, solid wagon brakes. What is currently available, however, tends to do stuff like



Anyone know a good brand that won't break the bank? High school theatre TD, so budget is always a concern, but there has to be something better out there.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Sep 14, 2017)

I use to use de-sta-co. Can't speak to current quality.

What manufacturer and rating is the failed one?


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## Stoickthelesser (Sep 14, 2017)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> I use to use de-sta-co. Can't speak to current quality.
> 
> What manufacturer and rating is the failed one?



I'm going to have to dig through receipts; they, too, were inherited. I've been lowballing their loads in light of that, just using them to lift the wagons for kitbashed friction blocks before there's any cast movement, but it's possible I need to go even lower.


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## gafftapegreenia (Sep 14, 2017)

I don't think wagon brakes are really meant to lift a platform several inches, but just keep it in place. There's are also more heavy-duty de-sta-co with more parts cast/forged rather than formed. Explore their website, there are waaaay more models than we are used to as "wagon brakes".


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## Stoickthelesser (Sep 14, 2017)

gafftapegreenia said:


> I don't think wagon brakes are really meant to lift a platform several inches, but just keep it in place. There's are also more heavy-duty de-sta-co with more parts cast/forged rather than formed. Explore their website, there are waaaay more models than we are used to as "wagon brakes".


The casters already have a fair amount of height, so the brake is only really lifting the wagon about a half inch beyond that. The ones I have definitely don't keep a unit in place on their own.

I'll definitely check them out- another issue I've run into is that the only brakes I've found that aren't way too tall to be used on conventional wagons aren't rated for more than 150lb or so. Building all of my wagons out of 2x6 or 2x8 just isn't feasible- cost increase aside, my director would pitch an artist fit at the aesthetic change.


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## Van (Sep 14, 2017)

I never really counted on Wagon Brakes to actually hold a wagon in place, if there was movement on it. If it had to be held in place with a dynamic lateral forces I always installed a cane bolt or stage screw and insert, or tracked it. That being said De-sta-co was always my go-to for brakes.


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## Stoickthelesser (Sep 14, 2017)

Van said:


> I never really counted on Wagon Brakes to actually hold a wagon in place, if there was movement on it. If it had to be held in place with a dynamic lateral forces I always installed a cane bolt or stage screw and insert, or tracked it. That being said De-sta-co was always my go-to for brakes.



Stage floor is tongue-and-groove, scarred from years of prior TDs letting them screw into it as if it were a proper stage floor.

If it sounds like each suggestion yields a fresh problem, that's... not inaccurate. I would never describe my space as optimal.


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## gafftapegreenia (Sep 14, 2017)

Stoickthelesser said:


> The casters already have a fair amount of height, so the brake is only really lifting the wagon about a half inch beyond that. The ones I have definitely don't keep a unit in place on their own.
> 
> I'll definitely check them out- another issue I've run into is that the only brakes I've found that aren't way too tall to be used on conventional wagons aren't rated for more than 150lb or so. Building all of my wagons out of 2x6 or 2x8 just isn't feasible- cost increase aside, my director would pitch an artist fit at the aesthetic change.



Even that half inch is too much. Anything that lifts that unit off its casters is probably transferring too much to weight onto the de-sta-cos. I've seen them bend on a small podium unit simply from the actor stepping onto the unit.


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## Stoickthelesser (Sep 14, 2017)

gafftapegreenia said:


> Even that half inch is too much. Anything that lifts that unit off its casters is probably transferring too much to weight onto the de-sta-cos. I've seen them bend on a small podium unit simply from the actor stepping onto the unit.


It sounds like I may be working from some bad starting assumptions. I was taught that the purpose of the wagon brake was to lift its associated caster just off the stage, keeping it from turning and transferring pressure to its opposite caster, in turn increasing that caster's resistance to turning. Was that inaccurate?


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## BillConnerFASTC (Sep 14, 2017)

I was introduced to them for irchestra shell towers, and they were intended to lift the entire tower for leveling it. A 24' tower looks pretty crooked if one casterus jyst a tad low. These were 1000 plus pound devices which i knew as over center levelers. So i suggest that al of the above are valid but different. So the 100 pound device mak work to hold a wagon in place but still bearing on caster, but a much beefier device is needed to lift it, even a little.


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## TheaterEd (Sep 14, 2017)

Stoickthelesser said:


> It sounds like I may be working from some bad starting assumptions. I was taught that the purpose of the wagon brake was to lift its associated caster just off the stage, keeping it from turning and transferring pressure to its opposite caster, in turn increasing that caster's resistance to turning. Was that inaccurate?


I was taught the same thing, and if you check out Rosebrand's products page, they agree. That being said, we bend at least 25% of the brakes we use. One trick I have found is replacing the rubber tipped bolt with something a little longer and beefier. That being said, it is obvious that they are not strong enough so I have always been looking for a better solution that doesn't involve drilling into the floor. So far, no such luck. I've been tempted to try out their floor locks, but Haven't had the opportunity as of yet. Would love to hear if anyone has experience with these.


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## Aaron Clarke (Sep 14, 2017)

TheaterEd said:


> I was taught the same thing, and if you check out Rosebrand's products page, they agree. That being said, we bend at least 25% of the brakes we use. One trick I have found is replacing the rubber tipped bolt with something a little longer and beefier. That being said, it is obvious that they are not strong enough so I have always been looking for a better solution that doesn't involve drilling into the floor. So far, no such luck. I've been tempted to try out their floor locks, but Haven't had the opportunity as of yet. Would love to hear if anyone has experience with these.



Funny, even the technical specs on the floor locks say they are not load rated and not for lifting it off the floor. 
http://www.rosebrand.com/downloads/Floor-Lock-Wagon-Brake.pdf


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## gafftapegreenia (Sep 14, 2017)

I guess I was never *taught* how use them, other than "these things lock a wagon in place". It's more from experience that I know any lift of measurable amount usually leads to failure.

I've got to find a link to the things we use on our welding tables. Now THOSE are beefy, but a b**** to unlock.


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## Crisp image (Sep 15, 2017)

TheaterEd said:


> I was taught the same thing, and if you check out Rosebrand's products page, they agree. That being said, we bend at least 25% of the brakes we use. One trick I have found is replacing the rubber tipped bolt with something a little longer and beefier. That being said, it is obvious that they are not strong enough so I have always been looking for a better solution that doesn't involve drilling into the floor. So far, no such luck. I've been tempted to try out their floor locks, but Haven't had the opportunity as of yet. Would love to hear if anyone has experience with these.


I have use another brand of floor locks here in Australia. they are about $90 aud and will lift up and hold the wagon up off its casters. I usually use 2 and lift one side so the wagons don't move when mounting and dismounting by cast. They are also usually used on smaller wagons that go on and off stage. Any wagon that is on stage the whole time is screwed in place. 
Hope this helps https://www.rjcox.com.au/product/3288/37001/hammerlock-friction-pad-floor-locks-909100/
Regards
Crispy


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## gafftapegreenia (Sep 15, 2017)

Crisp image said:


> I have use another brand of floor locks here in Australia. they are about $90 aud and will lift up and hold the wagon up off its casters. I usually use 2 and lift one side so the wagons don't move when mounting and dismounting by cast. They are also usually used on smaller wagons that go on and off stage. Any wagon that is on stage the whole time is screwed in place.
> Hope this helps https://www.rjcox.com.au/product/3288/37001/hammerlock-friction-pad-floor-locks-909100/
> Regards
> Crispy



That's the type of device I was thinking of. Googling "floor lock" delivers many similar products.


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## rsmentele (Sep 15, 2017)

I saw an interesting modification idea in one of the trade mags a while back. The user took two heavy duty breaks and bolted one to each end of a length of 2x4, countersinking the bolts to allow only the face of the board to touch the floor. They then welded a rod to the handles of the breaks to allow them to be set down at the same time. This gives you much bigger surface area for stability and strength. I tried to find a photo but couldn't..... and I don't have a chance to draw it out.... So I apologize if my description isn't clear...

I can't wait to give it a try myself though!


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## TheaterEd (Sep 15, 2017)

rsmentele said:


> I saw an interesting modification idea in one of the trade mags a while back. The user took two heavy duty breaks and bolted one to each end of a length of 2x4, countersinking the bolts to allow only the face of the board to touch the floor. They then welded a rod to the handles of the breaks to allow them to be set down at the same time. This gives you much bigger surface area for stability and strength. I tried to find a photo but couldn't..... and I don't have a chance to draw it out.... So I apologize if my description isn't clear...
> 
> I can't wait to give it a try myself though!


Reminded me of what I did on a show last year, so I checked the shop. I was having a hard time with the brake hurting the floor, this solved that... Just attached another 1 x 4 to it to sandwich the bolt and we were good to go.


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## TimFrancis (Sep 16, 2017)

Here is a version of that mentioned below but 2 wagon brakes (push/pull toggle clamps) are welded to plate steel. This was exhibited at the 2017 USITT Tech Expo and in in the current issue of TD&T. The greater contact area with the stage makes a big difference.
http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/hickmanbrady/tdt_2017summer/index.php#/64



Tim



rsmentele said:


> I saw an interesting modification idea in one of the trade mags a while back. The user took two heavy duty breaks and bolted one to each end of a length of 2x4, countersinking the bolts to allow only the face of the board to touch the floor. They then welded a rod to the handles of the breaks to allow them to be set down at the same time. This gives you much bigger surface area for stability and strength. I tried to find a photo but couldn't..... and I don't have a chance to draw it out.... So I apologize if my description isn't clear...
> 
> I can't wait to give it a try myself though!


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## rsmentele (Sep 19, 2017)

TimFrancis said:


> Here is a version of that mentioned below but 2 wagon brakes (push/pull toggle clamps) are welded to plate steel. This was exhibited at the 2017 USITT Tech Expo and in in the current issue of TD&T. The greater contact area with the stage makes a big difference.



That was it!


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## [email protected] (Sep 20, 2017)

As an outdoor theatre with a 1 degree raked stage (for water runoff), we have had plenty of issues with inferior brakes. A couple years ago, we got the 'floor lock' type of brakes for our tables in Rent (actors moving and dancing on the tables) and haven't looked back.

Besides being robust and super easy to release (just kick them), the brakes are spring-loaded and thus have some play for uneven floors or non-precise mounting. Although the rubber feet didn't initially have enough traction for us, a wrap of Gaff tape fixed that. Be aware that they are noisier than other kinds and make a loud snap when released.

McMaster-Carr: https://www.mcmaster.com/#floor-locks/=19gsmzi
Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01N36P74S/?tag=controlbooth-20


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## jonares (Sep 20, 2017)

rsmentele said:


> I saw an interesting modification idea in one of the trade mags a while back. The user took two heavy duty breaks and bolted one to each end of a length of 2x4, countersinking the bolts to allow only the face of the board to touch the floor. They then welded a rod to the handles of the breaks to allow them to be set down at the same time. This gives you much bigger surface area for stability and strength. I tried to find a photo but couldn't..... and I don't have a chance to draw it out.... So I apologize if my description isn't clear...
> 
> I can't wait to give it a try myself though!



This is the method I use - has sure helped reduce the amount of bent wagon brakes. I found the hint here: http://www.communitytheater.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4463
I cut-n-pasted David McCall's method and made a PDF for my shop....


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## The8erGuy (Sep 20, 2017)

Stoickthelesser said:


> I remember when I was a baby tech, it was possible to get real, solid wagon brakes. What is currently available, however, tends to do stuff like
> 
> 
> 
> Anyone know a good brand that won't break the bank? High school theatre TD, so budget is always a concern, but there has to be something better out there.


Call me old school, but after going through a bunch of bent and broken brakes like the one above for a high school production, I pulled out a crow bar and a 2x4 block of wood on a string at each corner of the wagon. Use the crow bar to lift the wagon up, slip the block under and it's done - no movement at all!. end of scene, crow bar lift, pull block and place on wagon (or in a pocket on the back of the flat) and roll the wagon away. the string keep the block handy, but some stage hands just put the block in their pocket and use it on the next wagon set. Best part... blocks are cheap, easily replaced, reusable, found in every shop !!!


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## Stephen Porter (Sep 20, 2017)

Stoickthelesser said:


> I remember when I was a baby tech, it was possible to get real, solid wagon brakes. What is currently available, however, tends to do stuff like
> 
> I needed a cheap solution to this problem several years ago. Here's what I did:
> 
> Add a short block of 2x4 (2x6, or whatever your wagon is edged with) to the underside of the wagon parallel to the edge of the wagon and about one foot from the edge where the brake is located. Then attach a piece of luan (or 1/4" plywood) the same width as the block and long enough that it extends an inch or two beyond the edge of the wagon underneath the brake. The brake will flex the luan and press it against the floor. The luan (or plywood) has considerable shear strength and will protect the brake from bending. Optionally, you can distribute the brake force more evenly by adding a piece of 2x2 on top of the luan under the brake if you have enough room. Additionally, you can add a rubber (or other material) surface to the underside of the luan to better grip the stage floor. If the luan doesn't retract adequately when the brake is released, you can add springs from the ends of the 2x2 to the top edge of the wagon to pull it up. Sorry, I don't have a photo readily available to show you. Hope this helps!


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## Stephen Porter (Sep 20, 2017)

EDIT: THIS APPEARS TO DUPLICATE MY ORIGINAL REPLY - SORRY, I DON'T KNOW HOW TO DELETE IT!

I had this same problem a few years back. Here's my low-budget solution:

Add a one foot long block of 2x4 (2x6 or whatever your wagon is edged with) under the wagon parallel to the edge and about one foot in from the edge where the brake is located. Attach to this block a piece of luan (or 1/4" plywood) the same width as the block and long enough to extend a couple of inches beyond the edge of the wagon. When the brake is operated it will flex the luan and press it against the stage floor. The luan (or plywood) has considerable shear strength and will protect the brake from bending. Optionally, you can add a piece of 2x2 along the top edge of the luan to better distribute the brake force. You can also add rubber or other material to the underside of the luan to better grip the floor. If the luan doesn't retract adequately when the brake is released, you can add springs from the ends of the 2x2 to the top edge of the wagon.

Sorry I don't have a photo handy. Hope this helps!


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