# Concrete Hardware



## elite1trek (Oct 7, 2008)

I am building a set that is rather tall for a show I am doing. There are several 12' flats that sit far upstage. They have a 3 foot clearance from the back wall. I need this clearance for a crossover. There is not enough room for jack-braces.

I was thinking that I would cross-brace against the back wall for support, at about 10' out. I do not want to damage the wall too much, so those blue anchor screws are not an option. What I am really looking for is something that I can permanently mount into the wall, and then bolt into it when I need to. My mind immediately jumps to the "Improved Stage Screw", but I need something like that for concrete.

I hope I was clear enough.

If you think there is a better way to do it, I am open to suggestions.

Thanks for your help!


----------



## derekleffew (Oct 7, 2008)

Those "blue anchor screws" are most often called TapCons®, and seem the least intrusive. After the production, all that will remain in the wall will be a 3/16" hole (for 1/4" TapCon).

If re-usability is desired (How many times will your braces be in the exact same place?):
Is the upstage wall concrete or cinder-block (cement block)? I'd suggest lag shields, but they're not really meant for repeated use. Can you tolerate a permanent bolt sticking out of the wall? (Not advisable for below 7'--guaranteed to catch clothing or flesh.) If cinder-block, perhaps a lag shield and a hanger bolt, as inspired by this? If concrete, a Thunderstud®.

edit: Another thought, Use TapCons to affix a long 2x4 flat against the wall and running the width of the stage. Paint to match the wall. Then standard L-brackets or hinges can be used whenever this situation arises.


----------



## elite1trek (Oct 7, 2008)

> Those "blue anchor screws" are most often called TapCons®



I knew they had a name!

I am willing to go with the TapCons, if there is no other alternative. The upstage wall is cinder block, I should have made that clear earlier. I am definitely looking for something reusable, and I really dont like the idea of permananent bolts sticking out.

Any other ideas?


----------



## lieperjp (Oct 7, 2008)

At my High School, when they hung TVs in the classrooms, they took some 2x8s and bolted them into the concrete, and then screwed the brace for the TV into the wood (they were the right-angle metal arm style TV holder.) If you are looking to do this permanently, you could get some 4x8s or something similar, bolt those to the wall, and paint the wood to match the wall. (I'm assuming the cinder block is painted.) That way, you could then set anchors anywhere on the strip of wood, and as the shows change you could change the location of the anchors without putting more holes in the cinder block. Then, when the show is done, you could putty and paint the wood to look nice again.


----------



## elite1trek (Oct 7, 2008)

great ideas all around.

I am still open to suggestions.


----------



## Van (Oct 7, 2008)

If the wall is CMU ,
< concrete masonry unit or concrete block to the uninitiated > 

DO NOT USE TAPCONS!

You only have two real choices when securing to a CMU wall. 
1. a "molly" or "Toggle" -bolt style connector.
2 A through-bolt to the opposite side of the wall.

CMU is manufactured with compression in mind, it's supposed to be able to stand up to a lot of pressure pushing down on it's top. They are not designed with lateral forces in mind. The wall of a CMU is extremely thin and for lack of a better word, brittle. it does not take a lot of force 
< relatively speaking> to cause the side wall to fail. The way tapcons work , going into a hole then pressing outward on a small scale, will cause the "granules" of the block to break up. If you look at a concrete wall and a CMU you'll know what I mean, CMU has a much more loosely packed structure. 
For a lighter load, such as bracing scenery, I think the toggle bolt style connector would work fine. I would suggest following Dereks suggestion, however, and permanently attach a 2x4 or 2x6, Heck make it a 2x12 every 24" OC from 4' up, to the back wall as you're are going to need a place to brace to a lot of times. I have done this same thing in both of our theatres.


----------



## derekleffew (Oct 7, 2008)

So Carnegie Mellon University and Central Michigan University are incompatible with TapCons? Interesting, because here says:
Tapcon® Concrete Screw - Applications:
Light to medium duty in concrete, brick and block.

I've done it many times without incident. I don't see anything on Buildex Tapcon® prohibiting the use in block, other than *Tapcon anchors require a minimum embedment of 1" and a maximum embedment of 1-3/4"*, which would indicate making sure to hit the web, probably.

Since you're close by, Van, maybe you can get a clarification from the Portland Cement Association?

elite1trek, here's an product that doesn't involve drilling holes: Epoxy Masonry Adhesives - Edison Coatings, Inc.. Just glue your braces to the wall!


----------



## Van (Oct 8, 2008)

I just post what I know. In my years of connecting things to CMU walls I have always been told to through bolt or Molly/Toggle. I'll do some more research, but what I've always been told seems to make sense to me. As for adheasives? Never trust a chemical when you trust a physical bond instead.


----------



## Pip (Oct 8, 2008)

lieperjp said:


> At my High School, when they hung TVs in the classrooms, they took some 2x8s and bolted them into the concrete, and then screwed the brace for the TV into the wood (they were the right-angle metal arm style TV holder.) If you are looking to do this permanently, you could get some 4x8s or something similar, bolt those to the wall, and paint the wood to match the wall. (I'm assuming the cinder block is painted.) That way, you could then set anchors anywhere on the strip of wood, and as the shows change you could change the location of the anchors without putting more holes in the cinder block. Then, when the show is done, you could putty and paint the wood to look nice again.



Great way to do it. I did this using Tapcons for the wood to wall for a bunch of stuff this summer on stage and in our shop. It works great, since the Tapcons are a bit less of a precise thing, since they're going into concrete. You can get them on the wall, then do your precise scenery attachment to the wood. 
Even using a Milwaukee hammer drill the taps were pretty fun, and then driving the screw itself was yet another fun thing... i was sore for a couple of days lol. But yeah - masonry bits for the pilot holes, then tapcons to screw the wood to the wall. I was piloting through the wood, which made it easy to line up, as well as doubled to pilot my wood too.


----------



## lieperjp (Oct 8, 2008)

Pip said:


> Even using a Milwaukee hammer drill the taps were pretty fun, and then driving the screw itself was yet another fun thing...



I have to agree with you here. Used a Milwaukee hammer drill (best there is!!! ) to install some shelving (old countertops, actually) in the store room at my High school. It worked o.k. though, we had three people to take turns. No sore arms for minors! Tapcons are a lot of work!!! However, they were worth it by far, and sturdy as well. Or, at least, we thought...


----------



## Pip (Oct 8, 2008)

lieperjp said:


> I have to agree with you here. Used a Milwaukee hammer drill (best there is!!!) to install some shelving (old countertops, actually) in the store room at my High school. It worked o.k. though, we had three people to take turns. No sore arms for minors! Tapcons are a lot of work!!! However, they were worth it by far, and sturdy as well. Or, at least, we thought...



Yeah, I was installing cabinets and cable racks that I built for our audio room. Probably went through 3 bits too lol

But yeah, they're _rock_ solid   (Pun completely intended  )


----------



## cdub260 (Oct 8, 2008)

lieperjp said:


> Tapcons are a lot of work!!!



Since when!?

If you're using the proper tool, Tapcons are incredibly easy to use. 1/2 inch lag anchors on the other hand, those can be a royal pain.


----------



## soundman1024 (Oct 8, 2008)

lieperjp said:


> I have to agree with you here. Used a Milwaukee hammer drill (best there is!!! ) to install some shelving (old countertops, actually) in the store room at my High school. It worked o.k. though, we had three people to take turns. No sore arms for minors! Tapcons are a lot of work!!! However, they were worth it by far, and sturdy as well. Or, at least, we thought...



I spent a summer pretending to be an electrician. I blasted through about 8 inches of concrete using a 4 1/2 inch hole-saw style concrete bit once. Those big hammer drills get heavy, and it's so loud too. After that day I started bringing ear protection with me in case I was going to be doing a lot of hammer drilling.

If you have a hammer drill for the pilot holes TapCons go in pretty easy. Just use a 5/16ths when you're putting the blue screw in instead of a flat blade and the process is pretty fast. It's faster than drilling into steel if you ask me.


----------



## lieperjp (Oct 9, 2008)

cdub260 said:


> Tapcons are incredibly easy to use. 1/2 inch lag anchors on the other hand, those can be a royal pain.




soundman1024 said:


> Those big hammer drills get heavy, and it's so loud too. After that day I started bringing ear protection with me in case I was going to be doing a lot of hammer drilling.



I meant more of this than the actual installation...


----------



## cdub260 (Oct 9, 2008)

lieperjp said:


> I meant more of this than the actual installation...



I find that it's not so much the weight of the hammer drill as it's the constant vibration that wears the arms and hands out. Thats why I wear leather gloves when drilling into concrete. They really help with the fatigue factor.


----------



## Pip (Oct 9, 2008)

soundman1024 said:


> I spent a summer pretending to be an electrician. I blasted through about 8 inches of concrete using a 4 1/2 inch hole-saw style concrete bit once. Those big hammer drills get heavy, and it's so loud too. After that day I started bringing ear protection with me in case I was going to be doing a lot of hammer drilling.
> 
> If you have a hammer drill for the pilot holes TapCons go in pretty easy. Just use a 5/16ths when you're putting the blue screw in instead of a flat blade and the process is pretty fast. It's faster than drilling into steel if you ask me.



Yeah, I was talking about the actual drilling of the pilot holes is more difficult, pretty tiring if you're doing a lot... And yeah... Sound designers! protect your ears!!


----------



## Van (Oct 9, 2008)

Pip said:


> Yeah, I was talking about the actual drilling of the pilot holes is more difficult, pretty tiring if you're doing a lot... And yeah... Sound designers! protect your ears!![/quote]
> 
> Make that Everybody protect your ears.
> 
> ...


----------



## Pip (Oct 9, 2008)

Van said:


> Pip said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah, I was talking about the actual drilling of the pilot holes is more difficult, pretty tiring if you're doing a lot... And yeah... Sound designers! protect your ears!![/quote]
> ...


----------



## Wolfgang (Oct 12, 2008)

As another idea for attaching to the block wall, you could use these zip anchor things. I can't remember their specific name, but basically you drill a hole through the block, stick the anchor in, and slide the front end down these zip tie like things until it's flush with the wall, and snip off the remaining bit of zip tie. They take bolts, and I believe are rated for something like 750 lbs in cinderblock. Once you take the bolts out, they're just a small white circle thats flush with the wall.

Edit: Ok, I just looked them up and they're called "Snap Toggles Bolts".


----------



## Van (Oct 12, 2008)

Wolfgang said:


> As another idea for attaching to the block wall, you could use these zip anchor things. I can't remember their specific name, but basically you drill a hole through the block, stick the anchor in, and slide the front end down these zip tie like things until it's flush with the wall, and snip off the remaining bit of zip tie. They take bolts, and I believe are rated for something like 750 lbs in cinderblock. Once you take the bolts out, they're just a small white circle thats flush with the wall.
> 
> Edit: Ok, I just looked them up and they're called "Snap Toggles Bolts".


 
Also manufactured under the name "Toggler" and great for securing to anything hollow including drywall.


----------



## n1ist (Oct 13, 2008)

What about putting up a horizontal length of Unistrut/Kindorf? It will work like the 2x8 and is a little less obtrusive on the wall. The multiple attatchment points will help spread the load too.


----------



## elite1trek (Oct 13, 2008)

Thats a really good idea in theory, but Unistrut would be very hard to work with if the bottom was not facing down. It would also be very expensive.


----------



## derekleffew (Oct 13, 2008)

I disagree with both points above and think Unistrut (or similar) is a great solution.

1. Unistrut's primary use is to support conduit--in any orientation, and is very often mounted horizontally on walls to support vertical EMT runs and enclosures. 


A multitude of various brackets here. Welcome to Unistrut, The Original Metal Framing.


2. The per-foot cost of Unistrut is certainly less than that of 2x8 lumber.


----------



## gafftapegreenia (Oct 14, 2008)

As much as I hate unistrut for lighting positions, it seems perfect for this job.


----------



## elite1trek (Oct 15, 2008)

It seems you are right on both points.

I still dont think I would use it though because it would be hard to paint black. Or does it come in black finish, I can't find it on the website.


----------



## derekleffew (Oct 15, 2008)

Most of what I have used is either factory Forest Green or bare steel, but takes "Technician's Magic Cure-All" (flat black spray paint) as well as any other metallic surface.


----------



## avkid (Oct 15, 2008)

elite1trek said:


> I still dont think I would use it though because it would be hard to paint black.


 All you need is a bent coat hanger, something to hang it from and a can of black spray paint.


----------

