# Commercial and non-profit theatre



## ferrari (May 20, 2012)

Hi Guys, noob here.

I once volunteered for a local theatre to do some simply work and then became wondered: What is the difference between a commercial theatre and a non-profit theatre? The place I volunteered before is a non-profit theatre. I now moved to a place where there is only a for-profit theatre closeby. I would like to find out the differences. I asked some people but they know nothing about it. Hopefully I can get some help from you guys. Thanks!!

Do they both hire union? is the house stage or house production manager who decides how many people are needed? Does it make any difference for rental show than the show the house itself presents?


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## ruinexplorer (May 20, 2012)

Hi there. Welcome to Control Booth. 

The difference between a for-profit and a non-profit theater is the same as any business, how the money is distributed. The tax status will govern how the facility/company is run, but there are a lot of similarities on our end. Many non-profit theater companies will have smaller budgets and likely will not hire union but depend on a small, underpaid staff who supervises a lot of volunteers. However, you can also have very large non-profit companies who will have very large budgets and pay standard wages and well skilled staff. These of course are generalizations.


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## museav (May 20, 2012)

ferrari said:


> I once volunteered for a local theatre to do some simply work and then became wondered: What is the difference between a commercial theatre and a non-profit theatre?


There is no difference as a non-profit entitiy is a commercial entity. As ruinexplorer mentioned, for the US the difference between a for-profit and non-profit entity is essentially in how any profits may be used or assigned.

In the US, a non-profit may take just about any form of business (sole proprietorship, corporation, partnerships, etc.). In theory, a for-profit would be formed specifically to benefit the owners, shareholders, etc. while a non-profit is formed to provide some public benefit, although that is very open to interpretation and not limited to serving the general public. A critical factor here is that being a non-profit does not mean that there are no profits involved, it means that any profits must go directly to supporting the entity or its associated causes rather than benefiting the owners, officers, directors or shareholders. It is also important to understand that a non-profit may have employees with salaries, in fact some employees of non-profits make a very good living.


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## ferrari (May 20, 2012)

Thanks Ruinexplorer and museav for your quick reply! I appreciate it!

What about the labor assignment for venue rental? I know for the show the theatre presents, the production manager will determine the manpower, is this the same case for the shows who rent the venue? Thanks!


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## neotrotsky (May 20, 2012)

In a Venue rental, the labor assignment would be dictated by the contract for rental of the space. It can be everything from a "Four Wall" site-only contract with no utility to an all-inclusive complete with per-negotiated labor hours. In this case, the production manager is brought in by the producer who rents the venue and they must abide by the contract drawn up by the producer, executive director of the venue and whoever else is involved with that process (Theater board, Technical Director sometimes, etc). 

With my venue (a University venue), rental contracts are far different than co-pro (co-produced) events, and the staffing is negotiated ahead of time. There are also different rates on merchandising takes and percentages. Each house is different in how this is managed, but this is an Admin and FOH issue until the renters load in.


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## ferrari (May 20, 2012)

neotrotsky said:


> In a Venue rental, the labor assignment would be dictated by the contract for rental of the space. It can be everything from a "Four Wall" site-only contract with no utility to an all-inclusive complete with per-negotiated labor hours. In this case, the production manager is brought in by the producer who rents the venue and they must abide by the contract drawn up by the producer, executive director of the venue and whoever else is involved with that process (Theater board, Technical Director sometimes, etc).
> 
> With my venue (a University venue), rental contracts are far different than co-pro (co-produced) events, and the staffing is negotiated ahead of time. There are also different rates on merchandising takes and percentages. Each house is different in how this is managed, but this is an Admin and FOH issue until the renters load in.



Is there a policy or law saying that the renter has to hire someone to do something although there is no need? Is there a minimum requirement for the labor task? I heard a story: a small production doesn't want to hire someone for their wardrobe because there is no need, but the production manager thought it was unacceptable and insisted to put couple of people there. Then the both sides debated back and forth. I have no idea how it ended up...


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## MPowers (May 20, 2012)

All of the things you ask about very greatly from place to place and venue to venue, even within the same city. If the VENUE has a union or IA contract, then all the showS coming in must use the union labor or negotiate an exception. This is mainly for what we call "Road Houses" that book in events rather than self produce.

Many large non-profit theatres work with union contracts, most notably LORT A and LORT B, but not exclusively. Many small For Profit theatres work without any union affiliation, some small Dinner Theatres, Summer stock et al. Ther are also large union affiliated Dinner Theatres and stock companies. 

Many Not for profit companies produce incredible works of art, many For-Profit theatres produce .... well......shlock C*#p.

So, as others have pointed out, there is only One, Universal difference. FOR profit or NOT for profit.


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## neotrotsky (May 21, 2012)

From my experience in Corporate events, non-profit theater and University theater production, I have never come across a situation where we were required to hire someone who was NOT needed just for the sake of having them there. If it isn't stipulated in the contract, it isn't done, and many venues and producers are strict to that. Usually, if the venue requires someone like the TD or the ATD or even an engineer to be on hand it's because they want to cover their liability. But, for aspects such as wardrobe or FOH, I haven't heard of any such event. Usually on-hand facility staff that ends up being attached to a contract are there in an administrative or technical capacity in order to protect the interests of the venue in case of an emergency or incident. And, at least in Arizona where I work, there is now law that dictates a need for even that.

Now, if you're talking minimum labor hours per crew member, that's a different matter. For example, in our venue you're required to have a minimum of one Technician and one rental worker (our term for general stagehand) by university requirements to have an event run. This ensures you have someone to run the technical aspects of the event (even if that means unlocking the building and just turning the house lights on) and someone to act as a facility representative to protect the interests of the University in case something goes amiss. The event bills for 5 labor hours standard per crewperson. This means that even if the event only lasts 3.5 hours, the producer responsible for renting the venue and the inclusive staff are billed for 5 hours labor per crew member. Anything extra is added on. But, this is all clearly stated within the contract. Even state labor laws that are considered to be universally understood are written out in the contract in order to avoid any missteps.


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## ferrari (May 24, 2012)

Thanks very much for your help. Now it is clear!


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## JChenault (May 24, 2012)

museav said:


> There is no difference as a non-profit entitiy is a commercial entity. As ruinexplorer mentioned, for the US the difference between a for-profit and non-profit entity is essentially in how any profits may be used or assigned.



Although I hesitate to disagree with museav there are several differences in the orginaztional structure, tax accounting rules, and what areas of business a 501C3 organization (ie non profit in the US) that a non profit has to abide by that a for profit company does not.

Now these differences do not make much difference in terms of how worker bees like us generall deal with the organization, but they do exist.

For example. You have to file a public tax document each year that shows income and expenses. You have to have a board of directors. There are restrictions as to what business activities you can persue.


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## museav (May 24, 2012)

JChenault said:


> Although I hesitate to disagree with museav there are several differences in the orginaztional structure, tax accounting rules, and what areas of business a 501C3 organization (ie non profit in the US) that a non profit has to abide by that a for profit company does not.
> 
> Now these differences do not make much difference in terms of how worker bees like us generall deal with the organization, but they do exist.
> 
> For example. You have to file a public tax document each year that shows income and expenses. You have to have a board of directors. There are restrictions as to what business activities you can persue.


Don't hesitate! I agree with you, I was simply focusing on the general point, which many people don't seem to understand, that making a profit or not is not a necessarily factor in being a for profit or a non-profit, the biggest difference is how any profits made must be distributed and used. Associated with that are indeed many details regarding how a non-profit entity must be organized, how they function, their financial reporting, etc.


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