# How safe does this look? Balcony Rail mounting



## Aaron Clarke (Mar 23, 2017)

So, I recently joined our local community theatre and am now working in the oldest theatre I've been in to date. Most of my previous time was in black box or newer school facilities constructed by qualified engineers. When I started walking the theatre I saw how they had 'rigged' pipe for the balcony rail and is a little concerning to me.

My primary concern is safety- In the picture you notice they just used flat stock steel (1/8" or 3/16" is my guess) bent over the top of the balcony. There is a about 3 inches over the back side with a bolt (is some, not all) that is tighten up against the wall under the cap trim. None of the bracket is physically attached to the structure. The more alarming thing in my view is that to hold the pipe off this bracket it is just a piece of flat stock welded at a 90 degrees (flat) with the pipe about 12" out from the bracket. There are just two brackets at each pipe end (about 6' apart) holding 6-7 source fours with two I-cue mirrors . There is no safety for the pipe should the bracket fail. Am I right to be concerned?

Also there is a practical matter that originally the lights were under hung, but to get better access and improve angles they move them to be mounted above the pipe. Fine with me but now they are above the balcony and block the first two rows view.

If its a legitimate safety concern I'd like to get them moving to revamping the way these are mounted while lowering the bar enough to improve audience sightlines. Since they don't know me, I know if I bring up safety without some support I'm likely to get the "it's been that way for XX years" speech.

If anyone would care to share their best suggestion to safely mount rails to a balcony without major construction it be helpful to know what kind of mess I'm getting into. I will likely be financing or at least find helpful partners to finance the fix.

Thanks for your input.

-I apparently don't know how to just upload a pic to the post. I hope the way I did it works


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## MNicolai (Mar 23, 2017)

No dice on the photo upload. Usually if you have the photo saved on your computer and drag and drop it into the post you're writing, a few seconds will go by while it uploads the photo and then it'll appear below your post with a couple buttons for insert "Thumbnail" or "Full Image". Pick your poison and it should stick the photo into your post.


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## Aaron Clarke (Mar 23, 2017)

MNicolai said:


> No dice on the photo upload. Usually if you have the photo saved on your computer and drag and drop it into the post you're writing, a few seconds will go by while it uploads the photo and then it'll appear below your post with a couple buttons for insert "Thumbnail" or "Full Image". Pick your poison and it should stick the photo into your post.




I think got the picture up now.


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## MNicolai (Mar 23, 2017)

Wow.

I would pull that out of service immediately and get a steel contractor in there to mount a proper pipe with an angled support on each end for vertical bracing to the wall. That is -- assuming that balcony face has actual structure in it you can anchor to.

I'm sure if you pitch that you'll get a "this is how we've always done it" response, but I would never put that above anyone's heads, nor would I want it above my own.

The safety cables between the fixtures and the pipe are almost a moot point. If a weld peels off or the bracket loses grip on the ledge, the entire pipe with fixtures could fall onto the seats below.

What's at the balcony level? Is there seating up there or is that just tech access? Also, do you happen to have a photo of the face of the balcony taken from ground level?


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## Aaron Clarke (Mar 23, 2017)

Balcony is seating. It's not always used but most performances seem to have some People up there. I'll get some more general pictures at our pick up rehearsal tonight. Great group of people but seems no one is in charge. The only paid person for the theatre is a office manager everyone else volunteers with not trained professional experience (I put myself in that category).

The person work for now is a significant financial donor so I think I can convince him of the safety concern with your guy's help and he can get it to the attention the correct people. The more support I have from all of you the better. More pictures to come.


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## RonHebbard (Mar 23, 2017)

Aaron Clarke said:


> So, I recently joined our local community theatre and am now working in the oldest theatre I've been in to date. Most of my previous time was in black box or newer school facilities constructed by qualified engineers. When I started walking the theatre I saw how they had 'rigged' pipe for the balcony rail and is a little concerning to me.
> 
> My primary concern is safety- In the picture you notice they just used flat stock steel (1/8" or 3/16" is my guess) bent over the top of the balcony. There is a about 3 inches over the back side with a bolt (is some, not all) that is tighten up against the wall under the cap trim. None of the bracket is physically attached to the structure. The more alarming thing in my view is that to hold the pipe off this bracket it is just a piece of flat stock welded at a 90 degrees (flat) with the pipe about 12" out from the bracket. There are just two brackets at each pipe end (about 6' apart) holding 6-7 source fours with two I-cue mirrors . There is no safety for the pipe should the bracket fail. Am I right to be concerned?
> 
> ...


One more thing to consider is balcony patrons draping their winter coats over the balcony not realizing there are lamps out of their sight and that they'll get warm and burn their coats. We had one fellow get really annoyed at having his high-dollar leather jacket severely scorched.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard


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## Aaron Clarke (Mar 23, 2017)

RonHebbard said:


> One more thing to consider is balcony patrons draping their winter coats over the balcony not realizing there are lamps out of their sight and that they'll get warm and burn their coats. We had one fellow get really annoyed at having his high-dollar leather jacket severely scorched.
> Toodleoo!
> Ron Hebbard


Thankfully not a huge concern here. To improve safety they had code compliant railing placed in front of first row about 2 ft back from original edge so audience normally doesn't get that close. Not that someone wouldn't duck under that rail


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## Van (Mar 23, 2017)

There are a million things wrong with that "system". However, strength of the flat steel is not one of them.
The torsional stress on the weld between the pipe and the flat-stock extension is the biggest failure point I can see. 
I'd have underhung the pipe and secured it in place with 2 u-bolts. 
Now I've seen that same 'type' of balcony rig in hundreds of theatres. The Idea behind the original idea is sound, for a temporary rig. For long -term use I have to agree with Mike and Ron too many issues to safely leave something like this in service. 
Make it go away! It's scaring me!


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## Aaron Clarke (Mar 23, 2017)

Thanks all for the feedback so far. Two follow ups while I wait to get into the theatre tonight.

1) Any recommendations on a company or person near here. Anyone from Dayton/Cincinnati/or Indianapolis area would do as we're smack in the middle of the three. We have plenty of welders in town but this is a task of a different sort you know. I'm sure it was one of them that dreamed this up in the first place. (Feel free to message me privately)

2) I doubt I would convince them to take them completely out of service in the middle of a show run and another show opening two weeks later. It's over half of the FOH lighting. Would a ounce of prevention be better than nothing until a long term fix is found? For example I have plenty of chain or aircraft cable I could easily rig a couple of temporary safeties off each end of the pipe. Thinking I could take unused c-clamps to secure it the pipe and run them over the balcony rail and secure it to a couple of mounting points into structure. Not ideal but would prevent it from coming crashing down on the audience should the weld fail. I'd also remove anything that isn't secured or saftied to the pipe (like the I-cues which are just resting in the fixture- brilliant!).


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## JD (Mar 23, 2017)

WHEN (not if) they redo the pipe, it should be brought up near level with the top of the balcony and the lights should go back to being under-hung. Although most of us in the field like to examine the technicals of any show we see, you shouldn't be forced to by having a row of fixtures blocking your view!


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## JD (Mar 23, 2017)

Aaron Clarke said:


> Thanks all for the feedback so far. Two follow ups while I wait to get into the theatre tonight.
> 
> 1) Any recommendations on a company or person near here. Anyone from Dayton/Cincinnati/or Indianapolis area would do as we're smack in the middle of the three. We have plenty of welders in town but this is a task of a different sort you know. I'm sure it was one of them that dreamed this up in the first place. (Feel free to message me privately)
> 
> 2) I doubt I would convince them to take them completely out of service in the middle of a show run and another show opening two weeks later. It's over half of the FOH lighting. Would a ounce of prevention be better than nothing until a long term fix is found? For example I have plenty of chain or aircraft cable I could easily rig a couple of temporary safeties off each end of the pipe. Thinking I could take unused c-clamps to secure it the pipe and run them over the balcony rail and secure it to a couple of mounting points into structure. Not ideal but would prevent it from coming crashing down on the audience should the weld fail. I'd also remove anything that isn't secured or saftied to the pipe (like the I-cues which are just resting in the fixture- brilliant!).


Remember, "you touch it, you own it" regarding liability. I can just hear the court case- "Never had a problem in all our years of operation until HE messed with things!" Best to just advise them strongly of the hazard and let them take action.


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## Aaron Clarke (Mar 23, 2017)

JD said:


> WHEN (not if) they redo the pipe, it should be brought up near level with the top of the balcony and the lights should go back to being under-hung. Although most of us in the field like to examine the technicals of any show we see, you shouldn't be forced to by having a row of fixtures blocking your view!



That was the issue we were discussing originally that prompted me to look closer. We were trying to determine what that would take and mid way through a sentence it hit me how careless it was. I took the picture and walked away at that point and just kept my silence for the moment.

Note: I literally got involved with this theatre less than two weeks ago so I'm treading on thin ice until they get to know me more.


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## MNicolai (Mar 23, 2017)

Aaron Clarke said:


> 1) Any recommendations on a company or person near here. Anyone from Dayton/Cincinnati/or Indianapolis area would do as we're smack in the middle of the three. We have plenty of welders in town but this is a task of a different sort you know. I'm sure it was one of them that dreamed this up in the first place. (Feel free to message me privately)



Metal workers don't advertise on billboards but I'm sure there are quite a few in your area if you ask around. I would ask around a little bit or open the yellow pages and see what's close. Maybe someone is already affiliated or related to a someone who works with the theater and will donate the labor if given the materials.

Resist the urge to conflate "someone who is a metal worker" with "someone who works with metals" though. Lots of people can burn stuff with a torch. That does not make them a metal worker.


> 2) I doubt I would convince them to take them completely out of service in the middle of a show run and another show opening two weeks later. It's over half of the FOH lighting. Would a ounce of prevention be better than nothing until a long term fix is found? For example I have plenty of chain or aircraft cable I could easily rig a couple of temporary safeties off each end of the pipe. Thinking I could take unused c-clamps to secure it the pipe and run them over the balcony rail and secure it to a couple of mounting points into structure. Not ideal but would prevent it from coming crashing down on the audience should the weld fail. I'd also remove anything that isn't secured or saftied to the pipe (like the I-cues which are just resting in the fixture- brilliant!).



As mentioned above, you break it, you buy it. Anything you put in now will be used as a defense not to solve the real problem. Whether the pipe fails in 6 days or 6 years from now, someone in a court of law can point to you and say you did work that they understood may the pipe safe to use, thereby assuring them they did not need to perform any further remedies.

Issue with taking safeties to structure is that you can't have any slack in the lines. If do something and the corner weld peel off the flat stock and the pipe drops a couple feet before the safety catches it, the safety will fail under the shock load or pull its anchor point right out of the wall/ceiling/etc.

I highly recommend making your recommendations in an email, and following it up with a phone call or face-to-face conversation. You probably will never need it but you want a paper trail for yourself nonetheless if something should happen.


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## Aaron Clarke (Mar 23, 2017)

Ok, no safeties, forgot lawyers have ruined the word for anyone who cares and have good intentions. I'll talk to the couple people I have somewhat of a relationship with and find out who to notify and put some "documents" together.

If its the same come July for when I hang my show I'll pull as much off them as I can (and will need for other locations anyways) to make me feel better. Who needs 19 750w s4 of front light 25' from the stage and only about 15' off the deck anyways? I'll still get more pictures up for opinions on solutions.


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## TimMc (Mar 23, 2017)

Entertainment Structures is an engineering firm in Cincinnati that specializes in designing and reviewing engineering plans for permanent and temporary load-bearing structures. I highly suggest beginning consultation with them.


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## Van (Mar 23, 2017)

TimMc said:


> Entertainment Structures is an engineering firm in Cincinnati that specializes in designing and reviewing engineering plans for permanent and temporary load-bearing structures. I highly suggest beginning consultation with them.


Good group of folks Too!


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## Aaron Clarke (Mar 23, 2017)

A couple more pictures. Sorry one is dark. 

I took a closer look and the brackets are 1/4" at least so I feel a little better but it can be a lot more improved.


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## Aaron Clarke (Mar 23, 2017)

Here is a couple more things I stumbled upon. The rats nest is in a gutte dfuse panel box in the booth. Nothing holding the door closed on it. 

And yes, they wired a plug to the emergency light and plugged it in 16" away from where they mounted it.


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## Morte615 (Mar 23, 2017)

It looks to me like this venue needs a good TD who can oversee maintence and repair. As well as a budget to keep it going. Most of what I see in your pictures are things that are done by those who just don't know better. That coupled with time and "It's always been this way" leads to a space falling deeper and deeper into disrepair.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Mar 23, 2017)

I recommend you get a licensed design professional to look at it and propose a solution. Any structural engineer and many architects have the expertise to do this. They will need to know the load and 30 pounds a linear foot is usual. And I agree it should be reconfigured for under hanging.

You may want them to design a proper anchor for personal fall protection at the same time, for people who focus and service the lights there.


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## Aaron Clarke (Mar 23, 2017)

Thank you all for your input. Once I find the right people to talk to I'll bring the suggestions up. I'm hoping I can show them I'm knowledgeable enough (and know the right people to ask when I don't know) to get them steered to the direction again. I have time to volunteer to take a lead, at least on the lighting side, so we'll see what happens. From those that I have talked with I think it will be welcomed.


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## Jay Ashworth (Mar 24, 2017)

The one photo I'd like to see but haven't yet, is the *back* of those hang-over straps, on the back side of the balcony wall.

Is that bolted through the structure, that I see on the front face?

But yeah, that spot where the pipe's welded to the top of the strap would be the thing that gave *me* the galloping heebie-jeebies.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Mar 24, 2017)

This is all speculation but that flat bar looks thicker than the pipe wall from the photo, and much thicker than 1/8 or 3/16. I'd suggest measuring instead it eyeing it but I suspect it's at least 1/4", if not 3/8" or more, which isn't bad for 90 pounds (3 ft of batten). Measure the pipe diameter also - outside - but c-clamp makes it look like 1.25" (nominal or inside diameter, near 1.6" od). One bolt per bracket is a concern, where the front one is located it's probably into a 2x10 that is bolted to a plate girder in the balcony rail. Often not much ferrous metal in this era of theatre structures.

I am not saying don't draw attention to the issue, and a qualified person - a registered design professional - should review it - but for your future credibility - don't draw a line in the sand claiming it's absolutely deficient based on this thread.

I was not far from you a few weeks ago and will keep that in mind if I make that trip again.


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## Aaron Clarke (Mar 24, 2017)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> This is all speculation but that flat bar looks thicker than the pipe wall from the photo, and much thicker than 1/8 or 3/16. I'd suggest measuring instead it eyeing it but I suspect it's at least 1/4", if not 3/8" or more, which isn't bad for 90 pounds (3 ft of batten). Measure the pipe diameter also - outside - but c-clamp makes it look like 1.25" (nominal or inside diameter, near 1.6" od). One bolt per bracket is a concern, where the front one is located it's probably into a 2x10 that is bolted to a plate girder in the balcony rail. Often not much ferrous metal in this era of theatre structures.
> 
> I am not saying don't draw attention to the issue, and a qualified person - a registered design professional - should review it - but for your future credibility - don't draw a line in the sand claiming it's absolutely deficient based on this thread.
> 
> I was not far from you a few weeks ago and will keep that in mind if I make that trip again.




Thanks Bill,

I forgot to grab my tape measure last night but I agree after taking another look it is 1/4" or more flat stock. It is 1.25" pipe. I'm not as worried as I initially was thanks to this conversation. It has been that way for decades but it still needs to be addressed for audience sightlines, practical use and safety in the long run. There is no physical connection to the structure as the straps just wrap over the top and a bolt is ran on the back side 'clamping' it to the balcony. The only picture I didn't take last night of course but will tonight. Thanks again


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## kicknargel (Mar 24, 2017)

Oof da. I've not been in that theatre, but I've been in That Theatre so many times. It's all fine until it isn't.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Mar 24, 2017)

Well, how long, what size, and what type is the bolt, and what is it into, are all relevant questions. I think if you pulled off that top plate or cap, and the trim under it, you'd find a heavy 2X bolted to a plate girder or something like that, and if its a lag bolt a few inches into that, it can be pretty strong.

Maybe there is an architect or engineer on the board that will look at it and put an opinion - in writing. The nearest small office (like one or two person home office) structural engineer would be great.


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## Aaron Clarke (Mar 24, 2017)

3/8 flat stock. Feel much better. 

Here the back side


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## JD (Mar 24, 2017)

Aaron Clarke said:


> 3/8 flat stock. Feel much better.
> 
> Here the back side


So basically, it is a compression system like a giant C clamp. No real anchor.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Mar 24, 2017)

I can't tell from photo. That bolt is against block, not through?


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## Aaron Clarke (Mar 24, 2017)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> I can't tell from photo. That bolt is against block, not through?



Yes, against the block. 

That one is proper. The bolts on the other two are gone and they are just hanging.


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