# Refurbishing stage floor



## JohnSB (Nov 30, 2012)

I've searched the forums on this and have gained some good info, but there's still some questions I have that I couldn't find an answer to. I'm a High School Tech director, and the stage of auditorium is in sorry shape. It was sanded and painted two years ago, (not the best job, looks like they were trying to scrape barnicles off of a battleship) but now it's splintering and heavy set pieces leave marks from the castor wheels. From what I can tell, the floor is tounge and groove wood over sleepers. The wood is some kind of soft wood like pine, but crappier. Heck, it might be made of Cottonwood the way it's falling apart. 
I've seen mention of using Masonite or MDF, and I'm wondering if a 1/4" layer over the top will help. I'm assuming it would need to be lap edged or tongue and groove. How would that be attached to the flooring? What type paint would you recommend? The front of the stage is maple, so it would probably have to be covered by some type of flooring too. (they did a horrible job of sanding this part too) Any suggestions on how to proceed?

Thanks, JohnSB


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## techieman33 (Dec 1, 2012)

You can cover the stage in masonite, I wouldn't do mdf though with it doesn't like any moisture at all. Any black paint will be fine, no matter what you do you'll be painting the floor on a regular basis. Another option is going with a 1/4" thick black plastic, uhmw or one of the other options. It will last for years and years without needing replacement or paint, but it's more expensive up front.


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## DuckJordan (Dec 1, 2012)

I'm going to second the maso floor, although don't lay it right next to each other, place nickels for spacing, on edge, then gaff the edges or Marley tape, the idea is to allow expansion and compression of the floor otherwise you'll get ridges after your first heavy set piece moves over a humid stage. then paint about once a year fully do not spot. Just like walls the floor will show the spots forever.


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## JohnSB (Dec 2, 2012)

DuckJordan said:


> I'm going to second the maso floor, although don't lay it right next to each other, place nickels for spacing, on edge, then gaff the edges or Marley tape, the idea is to allow expansion and compression of the floor otherwise you'll get ridges after your first heavy set piece moves over a humid stage. then paint about once a year fully do not spot. Just like walls the floor will show the spots forever.



So are you just laying the maso over the existing floor without actually fastening it down? Are you re-taping it evertime you paint or just painting over it and re-taping the bad spots? This method sounds doable with our budget, I just want to make sure which ever method we do, it's done right. BTW, what would be the difference in using tempered and untempered maso? Thanks for all the info.


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## JLNorthGA (Dec 2, 2012)

JohnSB said:


> So are you just laying the maso over the existing floor without actually fastening it down? Are you re-taping it evertime you paint or just painting over it and re-taping the bad spots? This method sounds doable with our budget, I just want to make sure which ever method we do, it's done right. BTW, what would be the difference in using tempered and untempered maso? Thanks for all the info.



I've fastened it down with screws in the appropriate places. I then caulked the screw heads to fill the hole.

I would use tempered masonite. It has a harder, hardened surface. It also takes paint a bit better.


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## DuckJordan (Dec 2, 2012)

JohnSB said:


> So are you just laying the maso over the existing floor without actually fastening it down? Are you re-taping it evertime you paint or just painting over it and re-taping the bad spots? This method sounds doable with our budget, I just want to make sure which ever method we do, it's done right. BTW, what would be the difference in using tempered and untempered maso? Thanks for all the info.



you could fasten or leave it float, In both the high school spaces its left to float and the tape is left between coats of paint. our apron cover is also maso but since we have a removable pit cover we re-tape those edges when we replace the pit cover for shows.

edit: also good to note is that the maso covering the floor is close to 15 years, those spaces hover see very few road cases and only a few heavy set peices per year.


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## JohnSB (Dec 2, 2012)

Thanks for all the great info, I'm going to get some prices for the maso, tape, and paint. I think this is something we could easily do ourselves, and at an affordable price. I think I could just bevel the edge where it meets the apron and tape it, as there's only foot traffic and usually side to side and not upstage or downstage.


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## DuckJordan (Dec 2, 2012)

JohnSB said:


> Thanks for all the great info, I'm going to get some prices for the maso, tape, and paint. I think this is something we could easily do ourselves, and at an affordable price. I think I could just bevel the edge where it meets the apron and tape it, as there's only foot traffic and usually side to side and not upstage or downstage.



yeah forgot to mention where the maso is gonna end such as the apron tape to the deck.


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## teqniqal (Dec 3, 2012)

The '1/4" black plastic' is likely not going to pass the Fire Code Requirement for smoke generation. That could create a toxic plume that could be dark and dense in the event of a fire. Stage Floors are fire rated assemblies, not just a bunch of parts thrown together randomly.


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## teqniqal (Dec 3, 2012)

You are correct that the splinters are a hazard - this alone should provide the impetus to get the funds to correct the problem. It is clearly a safety hazard. A dancer could get severely skewered by a hardwood splinter.

Refer to: http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/...ns/30368-stage-floor-concerns.html#post269466 regarding the 'meso' and other concerns.

As to fastening it to the floor, the high density hardboard (class 3 or 4) must be pre-drilled and pre-countersunk or you will never get a screw head to sit flush to the surface. This will add-up to alot of labor if it is done correctly.

An alternative to consider might be 3M's hurricane-proof tape. It is a double-sided sticky tape that is pretty amazing. See: Video - High Strength Bonding Tape In Action from 3M Industrial Adhesives and Tapes


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## Dreadpoet (Dec 3, 2012)

Since this thread has been started (there are already quite a few out there...some that have discussions on pretreating the masonite with either water or paint and others that discuss other potential issues) I have a few questions that some of you may be able to help with. My number 1 question is what do you do to attempt to get the floor leveled before you put maso on it? Our deck is like a rolling river with a few whirlpools thrown in, which made it self ever known when we recently put a revolve on it. The other would be that I have seen a few that would have you cut the maso down to squares rather than 4'x8' size....why?


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## josh88 (Dec 3, 2012)

One solution for an uneven floor depending on far you're taking the floor back, is to put a self leveling compound. But you'd be starting from scratch and essentially laying a whole new floor on top of it then. 


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## JohnSB (Dec 3, 2012)

DuckJordan said:


> you could fasten or leave it float, In both the high school spaces its left to float and the tape is left between coats of paint. our apron cover is also maso but since we have a removable pit cover we re-tape those edges when we replace the pit cover for shows.
> 
> edit: also good to note is that the maso covering the floor is close to 15 years, those spaces hover see very few road cases and only a few heavy set peices per year.



Hey here's another question, how's it sound? Is it relatively quiet or do you get a lot of noise from footsteps? One idea I had if maso tend to be noisy is to put down a layer of good quality landscape fabric to try and deaden the sound if it's a problem.


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## DuckJordan (Dec 3, 2012)

Its much like a hardwood floor so if sound is an issue I'd suggest either landscape fabric or the rubber that they put down before they lay down hardwood floors in houses.


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## Dreadpoet (Dec 5, 2012)

I disagree that it sounds like a hardwood floor. We often put 1/4"-1/2" meso on platforms to dampen the sound of footsteps with great success...if anything it is much quiter than hardwood or plywood flooring.


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## JohnSB (Dec 6, 2012)

DuckJordan said:


> I'm going to second the maso floor, although don't lay it right next to each other, place nickels for spacing, on edge, then gaff the edges or Marley tape, the idea is to allow expansion and compression of the floor otherwise you'll get ridges after your first heavy set piece moves over a humid stage. then paint about once a year fully do not spot. Just like walls the floor will show the spots forever.



Just to be clear, are we talking about 1/4" tempered hardboard (Masonite) or MDF? I just want to be clear as there seems to be a difference in the two. I talked to a guy at Carter lumber that says he stocks it, but I just want to be sure that we're all talking abuot the same thing. (gave me a quote of $17.25 a sheet for buying in bulk)
And what width of Marley tape are you using? Is 1" sufficient, or is 2" the way to go?

BTW, thanks for the info again.


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## Dreadpoet (Dec 6, 2012)

I'm talking about old school Masonite. Wow $17.25 is pretty expensive for it, I can get it for 14 bucks a sheet without any sort of bulk purchase. Ahh, the benifits of rural America.


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## JohnSB (Dec 6, 2012)

Dreadpoet said:


> I'm talking about old school Masonite. Wow $17.25 is pretty expensive for it, I can get it for 14 bucks a sheet without any sort of bulk purchase. Ahh, the benifits of rural America.



This is rural America. Labor is probably cheaper in Tx. They'll deliver for $25 though, and that's for just over 100 sheets.


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## DuckJordan (Dec 6, 2012)

Yep, and 2 inch marley or if you are looking for a stiffer tape Gaff tape.


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## teqniqal (Dec 7, 2012)

Your lumber yard says that they stock 1/4" tempered hardboard. You need to ask them what Class of Hardboard material it is they are proposing to sell you. See: http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/stage-management-facility-operations/14575-stage-floor-replacement.html#post142673 for more information about this material. Don't be so concerned about the cost of the good stuff - this is an investment in long-term durability and maintenance - not a duct-tape and bailing-wire patch. If you buy the cheap materials, it will disintegrate fairly rapidly and become a maintenance headache. A Class 4 hardboard floor can last over twenty years, where a Class 0 hardboard floor may not last a year. It's not just the cost of materials to consider - the labor to tear-up and replace the failed materials is expensive, too (even if your staff / crew are on salary or 'free', this is time better spent on other endeavors).


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## 2mojo2 (Dec 9, 2012)

We had a situation a lot like yours. The yellow pine flooring upstage of the plaster line was in pretty poor condition from years of heavy traffic. The masonite that had been GLUED and nailed down was worn, torn, and bubbled up from moisture.
We removed the masonite and scraped a way the glue, leaving as much of the pine flooring intact as possible.
Next, a cement based filler ( known in the flooring business as flash patch) was mixed and troweled in place over the whole surface. The object is to fill the voids and low spots, leaving a smooth surface. Do not overfill. Sanding is definitely not recommended. 
Since there is a history of high humidity issues in our space, and some of it is dampness rising from below the slab, we applied 30# roofing felt with a few staples.
1/4" tempered masonite was installed with 3/16" spacing between the sheets and screws about 12" on center.
Two coats of exterior flat black latex paint completed the job.

The surface has held up very well for six years. We have not yet replaced a single piece.

Leaving the seams open has been less than ideal. Dust gets under the sheets and can pop up during use. 
I think that I will tape the seams before this winter's coat of paint.

I am not altogether happy with the flat paint. It tends to hold dust.
I am going to try a mixture of exterior flat and exterior lustre (approximately a semi-gloss).

I hope this helps.


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## tcombs (Dec 11, 2012)

I don't recommend flat paint for your floor. As was mentioned previously, it gets dusty really fast. We use satin black Breakthrough for our stage floors. Sometimes we'll go to semi-gloss.


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## Dreadpoet (Dec 12, 2012)

how did you screw through masonite and the cement filler without cracking up the hardened filler?


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## josh88 (Dec 12, 2012)

You shouldn't so maso directly on the filler, especially if you have any type of dancers ever. Check the wiki for sprung floor (or maybe it will link if I'm lucky) there are usually a few layers underneath or at least some 3/4 ply. Which solves the screwing problem


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## artdeco18 (Dec 26, 2012)

We have a space that was at one time a church sanctuary and over time the stage has been extended twice. The original deck was hardwood over tongue and groove, one extension used laminate over ply, the last one used 1/4" tempered masonite over 3/4 ply. Some of the the issues we encountered was that the original stage and laminate were simply painted over and tape and heavy set pieces tend to pull up the paint. When the paint cures (especially after multiple coats) it can leave sharp edges on the stage which can be not a lot of fun for actors who may be barefoot. The other issue is with curling of the laminate and an uneven joint where the laminate meets the original floor. The third issue is that hardwood and laminate get messed up when set pieces are screwed to it.

Our solution was to redeck the entire stage with 3/4" sheathing. I thought about using a resilient underlay between the ply and original deck, but worried about it deteriorating over time (particularly in high traffic areas). Instead we opted to only tack the top layer of sheathing so that it would even everything out and would be able to "float" to some degree. 

We covered the sheathing with 1/4" tempered masonite which is a little more expensive but more resistant to wear, tear other insults theatre people subject to it. Because we were dealing with 4x8 sheets, care was taken to ensure that the masonite was off centre of the ply. We centred the first row of ply at stage C so that the joint in the maso was at C. The first row of Maso was also 2'. The idea was to keep the maso seams as far away from the plywood seams as possible. Also everything is staggered the same way tiles are so once you've started (assuming you start straight) it all goes together easily. 

Tempered masonite lasts a long time but I did remember recovering a stage many years ago that had been screwed and had its seams taped. Getting a robertson screw out after it's slot has been filled with paint is not a lot of fun and I found that the tape really did nothing to hide the seams. My solution was to use an air nailer and 1" Bostich staples to fasten the masonite and leave the seams unfinished. Paint and crud eventually fills the seams anyway and doesn't need to be maintained the way tape does.

One of the disadvantages of the staples is that they sometimes work themselves up. That is an easy fix with a hammer. another advantage of staples is that it makes replacement of individual sheets easy. That is the same reasoning for sheathing as opposed to tongue and groove. It's been my experience that the onstage deck gets a lot more wear and tear and paint (particularly if you allow productions to change the colour of the deck... so when it comes time to redeck you can often get away with simply replacing the sheets you need.


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