# 2-Way Radios



## Denny586 (Feb 13, 2012)

I am looking into buying a couple Motorola CP200 Radios (or a cheaper alternative?) for use on some shows coming up... The question is do I need a license to use them, and could they possibly interfere with other emergency services portables (i.e. police, fire, EMS)? Also could anyone educate me on differences with VHF/UHF? I know it's the different frequency ranges they operate in, but what are some pros/cons to each of them? 

--The main thing that I need in the radios is the ability to have a mic that has decent sound quality and enough volume to be audible over my PA system.


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## Edrick (Feb 13, 2012)

Yes unless you use the GRSM band you need a license usually if they advertise UHF or VHF its in the business band and requires a license.

VHF is great for outdoor long distance communication that isn't obstructed where as UHF is great for going through obstacles (inside a building for example). You really never want to use a VHF inside a building unless you want short distance.


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## avkid (Feb 13, 2012)

The CP200 is a good starting point.
If you use anything beside Multi-Use Radio Service you will need a license.

CP200's are programmable within a set band.


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## Denny586 (Feb 13, 2012)

avkid said:


> The CP200 is a good starting point.
> If you use anything beside Multi-Use Radio Service you will need a license.
> 
> CP200's are programmable within a set band.


 

So are you saying they could be programed to a frequency that doesn't require a license and still be just as reliable? And how would i go about obtaining a license if thats what it comes down to?


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## avkid (Feb 13, 2012)

Denny586 said:


> So are you saying they could be programed to a frequency that doesn't require a license and still be just as reliable?


 Absolutely, if there aren't users on the same frequency nearby.



> And how would i go about obtaining a license if thats what it comes down to?


More info can be found here:
FCC: Wireless Services: Industrial/Business: Industrial / Business Home


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## DrPinto (Feb 13, 2012)

Denny586 said:


> So are you saying they could be programed to a frequency that doesn't require a license and still be just as reliable? And how would i go about obtaining a license if thats what it comes down to?



If you know anyone who's an EMT or firefighter, ask them what local radio shop does good work. Contact them and see how much they charge to get you a frequency. A good shop can find out who is on what frequency locally and handle any frequency coordination that's needed. Building a business relationship with a local shop will come in handy down the road when you need radio service, accessories, or programming.


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## bishopthomas (Feb 13, 2012)

I don't know of anyone with a license to operate their CP200 (including myself). Up until last year technically you were supposed to have a license to operate a wireless microphone. I wouldn't worry too much about it.


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## Nelson (Feb 13, 2012)

Actually you are even supposed to have a license to operate in the GMRS band. Each radio user needs to apply for a license. The license fee is not cheap, either. I seem to recall it was close to $100 last I checked. MURS is the only service that I know of (that you would be able to use with CP200s) that does not require a license. There are five frequencies in the VHF band that are part of MURS. As long as you stay within the requirements of MURS (mainly being that you use a maximum output power of two watts), you are free to use those frequencies.

There is also FRS. Those are the Wal-Mart-style walkie talkies.

In our auditorium, we actually have a licensed UHF business-band frequency (and a repeater, but we don't use that in the auditorium). I also occasionally use MURS if the UHF frequency is tied up or I need two different systems in operation at once.

Just to review,
GMRS, General Mobile Radio Service, is a versitile set of frequencies in the UHF band. License required.
FRS, Family Radio Service, is a limited set of frequencies used primarily by consumer-grade walkie-talkies. They are UHF. No license required.
MURS, Multiple Use Radio Service, is a set of five frequencies in the VHF band. No license required.


EDIT: Either VHF or UHF should work fine in an auditorium. Even at two watts, either one should do fine. The advantage to UHF is that being a smaller wavelength, you can use smaller antennas.


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## mbenonis (Feb 13, 2012)

bishopthomas said:


> I don't know of anyone with a license to operate their CP200 (including myself). Up until last year technically you were supposed to have a license to operate a wireless microphone. I wouldn't worry too much about it.



I would. The FCC regularly goes after two-way users without a license, especially if they cause harmful interference. I see examples weekly.


Nelson said:


> There are five frequencies in the VHF band that are part of MURS. As long as you stay within the requirements of MURS (mainly being that you use a maximum output power of two watts), you are free to use those frequencies.



Right.


Nelson said:


> There is also FRS. Those are the Wal-Mart-style walkie talkies.



FRS is not legal to use for anything other than personal/family use ("Family Radio Service"). GMRS is also for individual use and cannot be licensed to a business.

General Mobile Radio Service (GMRS) | FCC.gov

The bottom line is to operate without any type of license, MURS is your only option. This requires VHF radios, which you may or may not have (Motorola made the CP200 in both VHF and UHF, I do believe...avkid, please correct me if I'm wrong).

BTW, applying for a business band license isn't terribly easy to do. Last I looked, you have to do your own coordination and make a showing that your system will not cause harmful interference. The process is not exactly user friendly (even to folks who regularly walk through the maze that is the FCC website).

Sorry the news isn't so good!

PS, one more thing. If you end up getting into UHF radios that run power in the Watt category, watch out for wireless mics in the 500 MHz region. Their front end filter may not be good enough to keep out the UHF garbage. Bet 600 MHz would be OK though.


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## venuetech (Feb 13, 2012)

mbenonis said:


> FRS is not legal to use for anything other than personal/family use ("Family Radio Service"). GMRS is also for individual use and cannot be licensed to a business.
> 
> General Mobile Radio Service (GMRS) | FCC.gov



I am confused this FCC page states: Family Radio Service (FRS) | FCC.gov

> *Licensing*
> The Family Radio Service (FRS) is licensed by rule. This means an individual license is not required to operate an FRS device. You can operate an FRS device regardless of your age and* for personal or business use* so long as you are not a representative of a foreign government.


I do not operate FRS devices very often but on ocasion they do come in handy.

It was in fact a Motorola dealer that suggested that a FRS device would fit my needs.


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## BNBSound (Feb 13, 2012)

There's a set of frequencies in the VHF band that are free for unlicensed used. They're called the MURS band (Multi Use Radio Service) and it's nearly identical to the FRS setup (Family Radio Service). No license, no problem. GMRS actually DOES require a license but it's not generally enforced. It's too much to explain here but jump on Wikipedia with those three acronyms and you should have a much better idea of where you stand.


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## Nelson (Feb 13, 2012)

FRS might not be a bad way to go. I do know of business that use them (though I'm not certain on the legalities), one local business is actually a health center that uses them.

Pros to using FRS: Radios are cheap, no license required, multiple channels available.
Cons: Radios are usually very junky and may not be reliable. No protection from interference from other people using the same frequencies. Accessories, such as earphones, headsets, speaker/mics may not be available.

I love MURS, personally. With a 5/8 wave antenna (and only two watts), I can easily talk to my friends on the other side of the city. MURS also allows the use of business band equipment (often available used on eBay for very little money) as long as it only puts out two watts. CP200s most likely would satisfy MURS requirements as long as you can either buy two-watt versions or program them to 2 watts max. I'm not too familiar with CP200s, so check to be sure. MURS also doesn't seem to be very popular, so interference from other users is possible, but unlikely.


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## venuetech (Feb 13, 2012)

According to FCC Report and Order, WT Docket No. 95-102, at 20(D)


> proposing to establish a very short distance, unlicensed, two-way voice personal radio
> service called the Family Radio Service (FRS)




> D. Description, Potential Impact, and Number of Small Entities Involved. These
> adopted rule changes will allow greater flexibility in the use of the radio spectrum, and meet
> the needs of the public for a short distance, two-way high quality voice radio service. Small
> businesses may be manufacturers or retailers of devices used in this service, or they may be
> users of this service in their business activities.


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## DrPinto (Feb 13, 2012)

venuetech said:


> According to FCC Report and Order, WT Docket No. 95-102, at 20(D)



I think that refers to something proposed back in 1995.

Dealing with the FCC to get a license without the help of a radio shop is like going to court without a lawyer to fight a charge. If you don't know how the game is played, you're sure to screw yourself in the end. It's best to pay someone who knows what they're doing.

The truth is if you're using only 2 watts inside a building on a MURS or FRS frequency, you probably will not be bothered by the feds. There's more of a chance of being bothered by someone else using the frequency.

Even if you do get a license, chances are good that you will be sharing the frequency with someone else. That's why there's CTCSS (PL).

I still say it's worth asking an EMT or firefighter what shop they recommend and go down there and have a talk with them. The sales people can help you determine what's best for your needs.


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## venuetech (Feb 13, 2012)

The original proposal dates to 1995 this is the FCC order that established FRS. 

Adopted: May 10, 1996 

http://transition.fcc.gov/Bureaus/Wireless/Orders/fcc96215.txt


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## avkid (Feb 13, 2012)

The CP200 is still in production with 5 different band splits.
VHF: 136–162, 146–174MHz; 
UHF: 403–440, 438–470, 465–495MHz


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## mbenonis (Feb 13, 2012)

venuetech said:


> I am confused this FCC page states: Family Radio Service (FRS) | FCC.gov
> I do not operate FRS devices very often but on ocasion they do come in handy.
> 
> It was in fact a Motorola dealer that suggested that a FRS device would fit my needs.



My mistake! I keep forgetting that they can be used for business. What is not legal is to (a) use non-FRS radios (e.g., CP200) on FRS frequencies, or use an FRS radio on GMRS frequencies without a license. You have to use the junky radios at low power.


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## mbenonis (Feb 13, 2012)

DrPinto said:


> Even if you do get a license, chances are good that you will be sharing the frequency with someone else. That's why there's CTCSS (PL).



Not that it solves or fixes interference problems--it just hides them from you.


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## Denny586 (Feb 14, 2012)

Would anyone have an opinion on these iCom radios?
What model they are and what they are worth? I know they are UHF 4W 16Ch.


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## avkid (Feb 14, 2012)

Whatever model they are you definitely don't need all those features if you were looking at CP200's.

If you want cheap Motorola I recommend the XTN series.
They were recently discontinued so there are large numbers appearing on the market from dealers liquidating stock.
My current fleet is 10 VHF XTN units. (XV1100, XV2100, XV2600)


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## gcpsoundlight (Feb 15, 2012)

I can reccomend the Icom units, although motorolla will work just as well. 


Sent from my iDevice using Tapatalk - now you have to guess which one!


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## Nelson (Feb 15, 2012)

I didn't realize that Icom made commercial/business radios. I like their amateur radios, though.


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## jstroming (Feb 15, 2012)

Agree with *bishopthomas*. I know at least a dozen production companies in the tri-state area that use CP200's (we've been using ours for years) without any issues.

I just used them on a show in Costa Rica this past weekend as the main line of communication within production with a massive line-array PA, and although things did have to be repeated they were decent. We used a few motorola headsets which helped. They were the "light-duty" kind though.


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## bishopthomas (Feb 16, 2012)

jstroming said:


> Agree with *bishopthomas*. I know at least a dozen production companies in the tri-state area that use CP200's (we've been using ours for years) without any issues.



Thanks. A lot of folks around here get caught up in the theory and forget about the practice. Anyone can look up and quote information, I'm just speaking from real world experience, if that matters...


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## Denny586 (Feb 26, 2012)

Anyone know anything about Hytera portable radios? Specifically the TC-508?


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## avkid (Feb 26, 2012)

Denny586 said:


> Anyone know anything about Hytera portable radios? Specifically the TC-508?


 If they don't bother to have somebody proofread their website, I think that says something.


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## Nelson (Feb 27, 2012)

Is Hytera another one of those imported Chinese radios? I've never heard of them. I've been awfully apprehensive about some of the new Chinese radios I'm seeing. Though there are some that are dual-band (VHF and UHF) that are certified for part-90 land-mobile operation. These intrigue me since we use both VHF (MURS) and UHF (land-mobile) frequencies at work. The major manufacturers never seem to want to produce dual-band rigs for commercial use, even though they make them for the amateur market.


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## avkid (Feb 27, 2012)

If you want dual band the only brand I can recommend is Yaesu.


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## gcpsoundlight (Feb 27, 2012)

Nelson said:


> Is Hytera another one of those imported Chinese radios? I've never heard of them. I've been awfully apprehensive about some of the new Chinese radios I'm seeing. Though there are some that are dual-band (VHF and UHF) that are certified for part-90 land-mobile operation. These intrigue me since we use both VHF (MURS) and UHF (land-mobile) frequencies at work. The major manufacturers never seem to want to produce dual-band rigs for commercial use, even though they make them for the amateur market.



The trouble is (in Australia at least, although I suspect the us is similar) is that the ACMA (similar to your FCC) are very restrictive about what radios can be used on a given frequency band. The theory is that only the bands licenced for can be used. So, for example I can't get my amateur handheld and program in the frequencies I use at work, even though it would work fine. I think that is why they don't make dual band, to discourage it. Also, as most of the class licenced services are commercial, they can make more $$ in sales


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## Nelson (Feb 28, 2012)

avkid, what model(s) does Yaesu make that are dual-band part-90? Are they narrowband compatible? If a company such as Yaesu makes a dual-band HT, I'm all about that instead of buying one of the new Chinese radios.

gcpsoundlight, We have the same issue here. Amateur HTs can be modified to cover commercial frequencies, but that is against FCC rules.


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## Denny586 (Feb 29, 2012)

I guess were gonna dive into the Hytera TC-508's.. I'll post on how well everything works out, Thanks everyone!


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## tdeater (Mar 13, 2012)

You can use MURS (Multi Use Radio Service) frequencies provided you set the power of the portable to 2 watts or less. (Not really a problem in theater settings). 154.57MHz and 154.6MHz are the most popular ones. 151.82, 151.88 and 151.94 are also available in the MURS service. The trick is getting them under the required authorized bandwidth. The first two frequencies, 154.57 and 154.6 allow for 20KHz. So, if you program the CP200 for narrow band, or 12.5KHz, you are good. The other 3 frequencies require 11.25KHz, so you need more purpose built radios for that. A CP200 can not go below 12.5KHz. Be careful about radios that are part-90 certified. A lot of the import radios are NOT. For UHF, your option is GMRS, but as someone else stated, every individual user has to get a license. As far as i know, there are no general UHF frequencies to use with a radio like that.


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## tdeater (Mar 13, 2012)

As for dual band radios that are type accepted for commercial use, they are VERY expensive. There are a lot of Chinese sort of ones out there marked as accepted, but are pretty much only allowed for Ham Radio use. Personally I have one of those chinese unable to pronounce named radios, and they work great. I am a ham, so they get their use there. It's amazing the features they can cram into a tiny case for such low cost, but we can not do here due to FCC restrictions and such.


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