# safety cable or not



## ship (Dec 4, 2007)

Name four ways this safety cable is not so safe or at least standard to the industry.


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## Marius (Dec 4, 2007)

Uh, looks ok to me. Are the swages not crimped properly?


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## soundlight (Dec 4, 2007)

1) It's rusted
2) no thimbles
3) Loop around the biner is to small
4) Looks like there's a crack in the right nicopress, but I could be wrong.

That's all I've got right now, some of those could be wrong...


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## Grog12 (Dec 4, 2007)

5) Its only crimped on each nico twice not 3 times
6) There's no slack pass the crimp

As an added bonus when's a saftey the most useful?


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## PadawanGeek (Dec 4, 2007)

Grog12 said:


> As an added bonus when's a saftey the most useful?



When the bolt comes loose =O


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## icewolf08 (Dec 4, 2007)

Well, from the photo, I can't tell if it is rust or gold paint. Either way, it probably isn't the best for a safety. I have never met a safety that has thimbles in the loops, but that would certainly be a good thing to have. Without knowing what gauge wire it is and what material the swaging sleeves are, I can't speculate on how many swages should be in each sleeve. The fact that the loop on the left is starting to kink is probably not so great, and the loop on the right probably should be bigger.


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## gafftapegreenia (Dec 4, 2007)

I think that:

1) Left loop is kinking
2) Right loop could be bigger
3) There is none of the "dead" end sticking out of the nicopress.
4) The gold or rust


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## avkid (Dec 4, 2007)

gafftapegreenia said:


> There is none of the "dead" end sticking out of the nicopress.


That's funny, because all the mass produced ones for sale are flush cut.


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## Footer (Dec 4, 2007)

avkid said:


> That's funny, because all the mass produced ones for sale are flush cut.


The dead end should be flush, not sticking out. If it sticks out they usually stab you. Also, the reasoning behind the extra sticking out just does not hold up, that being if it starts slipping it will not pull out because that extra bit will hold. In reality, it is just going to continue failing.


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## gafftapegreenia (Dec 4, 2007)

Ok, then how about this - the crimps on the safeties in the picture are different from the pics ship posted.


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## avkid (Dec 4, 2007)

I won't dignify that with a response.


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## gafftapegreenia (Dec 4, 2007)

What?!? I'm trying to figure this out here. The nicopress in ship's photo have two crimps, the nicopress in your second photo have three crimps, and the nicopress in the first photo you posted don't seem to have crimps. I saw that same photo on a google image search. I don't know what the proper name for that style is, but it's not "crimped" it's like, pressed down the middle.


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## avkid (Dec 4, 2007)

I thought you were just arguing with me.
(mistaken identity, I thought you were someone else for a second)
There are different types of sleeves.
That round one looks more like a stop than a sleeve though.
http://www.usrigging.com/sleeves.html


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## gafftapegreenia (Dec 4, 2007)

Ah, no harm them. So that's what those things are called.


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## ship (Dec 4, 2007)

soundlight said:


> 1) It's rusted
> 2) no thimbles
> 3) Loop around the biner is to small
> 4) Looks like there's a crack in the right nicopress, but I could be wrong.
> That's all I've got right now, some of those could be wrong...




Got one out of four things I note. Thimbles are not standard practice for biners but a really good idea and one that will come in time to the industry as standard. Not rusted, painted gold but not one of the noted points.


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## ship (Dec 4, 2007)

Grog12 said:


> 5) Its only crimped on each nico twice not 3 times
> 6) There's no slack pass the crimp
> As an added bonus when's a saftey the most useful?




That is two of four main points. Perhaps when not needed?


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## ship (Dec 4, 2007)

icewolf08 said:


> Well, from the photo, I can't tell if it is rust or gold paint. Either way, it probably isn't the best for a safety. I have never met a safety that has thimbles in the loops, but that would certainly be a good thing to have. Without knowing what gauge wire it is and what material the swaging sleeves are, I can't speculate on how many swages should be in each sleeve. The fact that the loop on the left is starting to kink is probably not so great, and the loop on the right probably should be bigger.



Also correct in all ways. 1/8" wire rope if it helps.


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## ship (Dec 4, 2007)

gafftapegreenia said:


> I think that:
> 1) Left loop is kinking
> 2) Right loop could be bigger
> 3) There is none of the "dead" end sticking out of the nicopress.
> 4) The gold or rust



Tje dead end is properly terminated but a good thing to look for. Don't want it sticking out more than at most 1/16" or it will snag/sliver people. It's paint and fine. The rest, correct


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## ship (Dec 4, 2007)

avkid said:


> I thought you were just arguing with me.
> (mistaken identity, I thought you were someone else for a second)
> There are different types of sleeves.
> That round one looks more like a stop than a sleeve though.
> http://www.usrigging.com/sleeves.html



Yep, we all have chips on our shoulders - often best to think twice. 

There is three types of nicopress oval sleeve mostly used. First is home owner / home center grade aluminum - one should never use one in our industrybut very dangerous. Problems with stress cracks and stuff like that that are hard to detect in use. My photo on the Left shows one, possibly the second photo shown later also has them. Next is either copper or zinc coated copper oval sleeves which are proper to use. Zinc coated copper while cheaper is more difficult to use if untrained to tell the difference between it in shinyness and dull aluminum. 

These in general are proper to use as long as either professionally produced - that liability paperwork thing of who you bought them from responsible if they fail, or if home made these as with all Nicopress crimps need to be tested with the Go/No-Go gauge provided with each crimp tool. Test the first one and after like 20x of them every time you use the tool. If your crimp does not pass this test, send it back for re-calibration. Manual says every year the crimp tool is to be re-calibrated but most don't use the tools enough. Testing the crimps each time they are done is more the reasonable goal. Re-Calibration by either factory authorized service center or the factory is required. My own bench tool is in for this currently.

Manuals on crimping these Nicopress sleeves (Swag Tool, National Telephone #64-CGMP, Wire Rope Crimp Tool 1/16" to 3/16" Oval) normally used do normally say three crimps per sleeve at 1/8". I have read in some places however a two crimp per sleeve statement thus some confusion in the industry.

This two crimp safety cable has been produced by some company unknown for resale and they are all over the market, (constantly show up in even my inventory though not painted gold.) Normally they don't have such a tight crimp around the snap hook also. Keep an eye out for them - two crimps is not what most manuals specify or what is general practice.

The third crimp type which is often factory best is a single piece crimp. Someone with a tool that does one crimp along the entire length of the crimp sleeve. Good stuff, not much chance of a tool out of adjustment. Such crimp sleeves are absolute perminant and proper.

So first we have an aluminum sleeve on the left end of the safety cable, second we have two crimps on the right end and also the wire rope too tight around the snap hook. Common mistake for an amature would be to make such a thing tight in not recognizing minimum bending radiai of wire rope. Fourth we have the results of minimum bending of wire rope. This wire rope is deformed due to folding/bending and also no longer safe.

In the future and most Euro safety cables have thimbles of either the smaller 'AN' style or normal size thimble. Normally the AN size which are minimal size in bending radiai for a wire rope of this size. They also have better snap hooks used than ours. - but not perfect ones yet. This is what will come as given a safety cable 1/8" galvanized 7x19 wire rope has a minimum bending radiai, is it really safe to use something under shock load that would break if bent too sharply? This granted that such safety cables that have thimbles will no longer fit thru a 1/2" hole on most fixtures such as the S-4 Safety cable ring. That's a re-design problem for them in compliance with what will hopefully at some point become a new standard. In fact, the QOTD safety cable that shows the damaged sharply bent loop is no doubt from bending to fit into 1/2" holes. Once the wire rope is no longer round in how it lays, it is trash. 

For now in addition to these details of inspection, one also wants to inspect the snap hook itself. IF it don't close properly or gets hung up, one can oil it but after that if it does not test correctly by itself, that safety cable is also trash.

Points I was attempting to point out with the safety cable presented were as follows:

Two crimps on the right
Too tight around the snap hook
Damaged loop on the left end
Aluminum Oval Sleeve


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## ship (Dec 4, 2007)

Urr... some rigger was not paying attention. Really hard to do such a thing - this cable had quite a bit of weight on it, this is 3/8" wire rope steel used for supporting truss. Note the crimp type and the thimbles also.

None the less, just as this knot makes for a really un-safe rig, a deformed safety cable also is not safe to use.


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## gafftapegreenia (Dec 4, 2007)

I don't think I would have gotten the aluminum crimp, not at this point in my life anyway.


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## Grog12 (Dec 5, 2007)

PadawanGeek said:


> When the bolt comes loose =O




ship said:


> That is two of four main points. Perhaps when not needed?



Actually the time a saftey cable is most useful is when you're tightening it down on the pipe with your wrench. If you overtighten or if other people have you get a stress fracture in the c-clamp and down it goes. While saftey's are quite useful in other situations if the clamp is going to go its going to go when you tighten it.

If I can find the picture I have I'll post it.


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## ship (Dec 5, 2007)

what about when scenery or basket balls hit the fixtures - after installed?


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## Charc (Dec 6, 2007)

ship said:


> what about when scenery or basket balls hit the fixtures - after installed?



Or during a carpentry focus? 

P.S.

Ship! I _thought_ I was missing a safety. Wow, how did it get all the way out to... to..., well I don't know where you are, but still.

(Seriously though, even my stuff looks better than that. I think. Wait, do all my instruments even _have_ safeties...?)


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## Grog12 (Dec 6, 2007)

ship said:


> what about when scenery or basket balls hit the fixtures - after installed?



While I haven't seen B-balls hit lights...everytime I've seen scenery hit lights it either shatters the lamp/reflector/maybe lens/ or b) knocks it out of focus. Very rarely do they get knocked off the pipe, unless they were hung improperly in the first place...which is reason #2 to always use safteys.


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## Hughesie (Dec 6, 2007)

ship, do you just like teasing the whole booth with these crazy safety questions, there's something for dvs to put in the forum

Ship's safety questions, actually that's not such a bad idea


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## Footer (Dec 6, 2007)

Grog12 said:


> While I haven't seen B-balls hit lights...everytime I've seen scenery hit lights it either shatters the lamp/reflector/maybe lens/ or b) knocks it out of focus. Very rarely do they get knocked off the pipe, unless they were hung improperly in the first place...which is reason #2 to always use safteys.



Reason #1, C clamps are cast, not milled, therefore they can easily crack. The reason C clamps do not have legit SWL designations is because of this. Besides stupidity coming into play with the person hanging it, you never know whats going to crash into that pipe that gives it that extra umph to crack the clamp or bend it badly, also.. you never know when that earthquake will hit.


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## Charc (Dec 6, 2007)

Footer4321 said:


> Reason #1, C clamps are cast, not milled, therefore they can easily crack. The reason C clamps do not have legit SWL designations is because of this. Besides stupidity coming into play with the person hanging it, you never know whats going to crash into that pipe that gives it that extra umph to crack the clamp or bend it badly, also.. you never know when that earthquake will hit.



I've heard most of NYC isn't earthquake "proofed" (I was about to type: EQ proofed, but caught myself.  ), or... maybe that was hurricane "proofed". In any event, we all know what the local 1 strike did to theatre, but could you imagine all of broadway shaking with a powerful earthquake? Is it possible that even a more minor earthquake might be enough to royally mess-up focus positions?


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## avkid (Dec 6, 2007)

I think you're losing your mind Charlie.


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## Charc (Dec 6, 2007)

avkid said:


> I think you're losing your mind Charlie.



Yea, sorry for all the random posts lately CB. I have a lot of work going on, primarily with school, and trying to raise my grades in 1.5 weeks, but with other things too.

~Charlie


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## Footer (Dec 7, 2007)

charcoaldabs said:


> Is it possible that even a more minor earthquake might be enough to royally mess-up focus positions?



I would not be concerned about focus... I would be more concerned about the 20 tons of stuff in the air that starts swinging, pulling on loft block in ways they were not meant to, arbors banging in to each other... the last place I would ever want to be in a quake is in a theatre, let alone in a genie. Always remember, there are forces out there that are bigger then what you hope for, hopefully it never happens, but it could. If you are out west, they tend to take it a bit more seriously, if you are in the midwest they say the clock is ticking.


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## icewolf08 (Dec 8, 2007)

Try working on a cruise ship with a fly system. There are actually some very interesting designed fly systems for cruise ships where the battens ride in a track so they can't sway. Working on a ladder, even a 6' ladder while the ship is moving is quite exciting.


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## Logos (Dec 8, 2007)

icewolf08 said:


> Working on a ladder, even a 6' ladder while the ship is moving is quite exciting.



Oh yeah. Even on a calm day in the Med.


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## genericcomment (Dec 9, 2007)

Nicopress sleeves have to be pressed 3 times.


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