# I cringe at even asking this, but...



## NHStech (Jan 7, 2011)

We are doing Wizard of Oz at our school, and I in no uncertain terms made it clear to the director I would not be lifting any human off the ground via our fly system. 
And yet, he is, shall we say, persistent (Okay, a pain in the backside to work with, but I love him). He sent me the attached picture.View attachment balloon.pdf

It APPEARS as if the school is just using its fly system to raise the basket. I am assuming no tricks, just straight up in the air.
Which brings up the question: Is it EVER acceptable to raise a kid offstage using your counterweight system, whether it is in a basket, harness, or anything?


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## gafftapegreenia (Jan 7, 2011)

Now I'm not a certified rigger, but my answer is most certainly "no", as I don't think standard counterweight fly systems are ever (or if they are, very rarely) designed with the safety ratio necessary to safely fly humans.


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## derekleffew (Jan 7, 2011)

NHStech said:


> ...Which brings up the question: Is it EVER acceptable to raise a kid offstage using your counterweight system, whether it is in a basket, harness, or anything?


This question is probably better directed to the manufacturer of your counterweight fly system: JRClancy, Secoa, H&H, Tiffin, ProTech, etc.

Hint: They'll say "No."!


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## gafftaper (Jan 7, 2011)

I have to admit that many years ago, when I was a young dumb hotshot drama teacher, I did it. (Sorry WhatRigger?, I admit it was REALLY dumb and I attempt to make up for it now with this post). 

Looking back on it now, it's the most dangerous thing I've ever allowed a student to do on stage and I would *NEVER* do it again. Let's just ignore the fact that you have a kid 14 feet up in the air suspended from a counterweight system not designed to lift humans. We can ignore the rigging math about loads and the damage you will likely do to your fly system (I bent two battens, real good). Let's ignore the fact that he's in a basket (probably made of wood) by students, not a professional flying effects company. Then let's Ignore the fact that the kid has no safety harness or lifeline to protect him if the basket fails and he falls. Let's ignore the OSHA statistics that say he's very likely to suffer some sort of permanent life altering injury if not death at that height. Let's ignore the fact that if you screw up and the kid dies you are going to get sued, get the district sued, and loose your job (possibly your career as a technician... who is going to hire you after this?).

Let's just think about the counter weighting issue. In order to lift that much weight you have to purposely create an arbor heavy runaway situation. Lets say your actor weighs 150 pounds and the 2x4 and plywood basket is at least another 50. Now you want this thing to fly so it should zip up a bit right? So you have to counterweight the arbor at least 250lbs out of balance, to get the basket to take off. Now consider the set change back stage where you bring that empty basket down into position. I had my 6 largest stage hands backstage falling over each other pulling on the ropes to just pull the basket down into position. That's WAY more stress than your system is designed to take. 

What happens if your hand break fails? What happens if one of those kids pulling on a rope slips and the arbor runs away crashing down on your crew? 

It's a nightmare, don't do it. 

Give your director this message from one of the top rigging experts in the industry Bill Sapsis 

sobenson said:


> A message from Uncle Bill
> 
> What is it about the holidays that cause normal people to lose their minds?
> 
> ...



With what I know now, if I were in your situation I would do the following (in order).
1) Give the director all this information above. 
2) Appeal to the principal and explain the dangers of the situation. 
3) Let's call the district's risk management office and/or insurance people and have them assess the situation. 
4) Get the parent involved. Tell the parent about the dangerous stunt your director wants done to their child. 
4) Tell the director I won't do it you'll have to fire me. Yes I would totally go to the wall against doing this today. It's THAT dangerous.
5) Give the director's home phone number to What_Rigger? He'll be happy to call and rip the director a new one with a few choice words on how stupid this is.

There are some interesting SAFE alternative ideas in this thread and this thread. 

P.S. The CB staff is watching this thread VERY closely. Any posts encouraging a dangerous do it yourself solution will be deleted.


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## Footer (Jan 7, 2011)

Can a counterweight fly system be used to fly people? Yes. Can YOU use a counterweight fly system to fly people? NO. 

Flying companies such as Hall, ZFX, and Foy will use a counterweight system to fly people. However, they first inspect the entire system. They usually lock down a batten and use it to secure other rigging that actually lifts. Rarely do they actually lift a person with a counterweight system. 

Here is what you need to tell whoever is dumb enough to do this:
The biggest reason for this is counterweight systems are always designed to work in balance. When flying a person you introduce two things to the system. First, you are either going to operate the system pipe heavy or arbor heavy. The operators are going to have to work hard to bring the basket in leading to a very unsafe condition on the rail and overhead. When the person is loaded up, they will then have to work hard to keep the person in the air and safely lower them. When the person unloads they will then have to work even harder in order to keep the arbor from crashing to the ground. Added to that, counterweight syems and rope locks are not designed to be run in this fashion. There are ways around this but those are way outside the scope of what anyone in a high school should be doing. 

Second, you introduce swing into the system. When a person loads and unloads, they will make the lineset swing. Professional flying companies do a lot to prevent and stop this. When the batten starts swinging, you run the risk of it crashing into other battens, getting tangled into other battens, and possibly knocking things loose causing them to fall on the stage (such as lights). 

So yes, its easy to do. Attach a basket... fly it out... However, there are about a hundred different ways something could go wrong and someone could get seriously injured or killed. I don't want to see this posted on our news section with how a student got killed or injured because someone thought it would be fun to fly someone in this way.


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## visagegyc (Jan 7, 2011)

_"...I in no uncertain terms made it clear to the director I would not be lifting any human off the ground via our fly system." _

Stick to your guns. Then, follow up with creative ideas to make it LOOK something like someone is flying. Something like a slightly dimensional scenic piece flown/tracked laterally backed by a reasonably elevated rolling platform (with safety factors, like a rail to hang onto!) that the actor stands on as everything "floats" toward the wing and offstage... Takes some coordination, and may seem cheesy of not done just right, but whatever happened to supsension of disbelief? Do we REALLY expect the audience to think that guy is made of straw?


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## avkid (Jan 7, 2011)

gafftaper said:


> What happens if your hand break fails?


Rope locks are not brakes, and should not be used as such.


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## gafftaper (Jan 7, 2011)

avkid said:


> Rope locks are not brakes, and should not be used as such.


 Actually Phil, while you are right that you should never use them as a break to slow the progress of the rope, I purposely refer to them as breaks and not locks. To me, lock implies that it is LOCKED and can't move. In reality it's a friction break that slows the movement of the rope, and hopefully, provides enough friction to prevent it from moving again. Either term you use, remember that a lineset is never 100% secured by the use of the "rope locks" or "hand breaks".


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## Les (Jan 7, 2011)

Footer said:


> Flying companies such as Hall, ZFX, and Foy will use a counterweight system to fly people. However, they first inspect the entire system. *They usually lock down a batten and use it to secure other rigging that actually lifts. *



Exactly. I've seen this done, and the inspection is one of the very first things they do, right after grabbing a cup of coffee and unloading their roadcases. I can also attest that securing the batten(s) isn't something an untrained individual could do safely. It took the professional FOY rigger several hours to secure an electric winch batten to the top of a 1/4 fly loft.


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## cprted (Jan 7, 2011)

Excellent advice from everyone already in this thread. Another point I would raise to your director is, while the picture looks good, you don't actually know how the basket is being raised. I would hope that one of the companies already mentioned was involved in the effect. We just had an arena tour of Wizard of OZ come through, the Foy roadcases literally took up half of a 53' trailer.


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## DuckJordan (Jan 7, 2011)

Also break down the costs for him, to do the effect professionaly $25,000. To do it on your own and not nearly as safe, $100 for basket material plus cable to attach bucket to lineset now add in the cost of said basket breaking and the actor falling through breaking their spine, their arms and any other bone you can think of $350,000 then also add in the cost if the batten bends or locks up add another $3,000-4,000. Then add in the costs of your director being fired for it lets say if he gets paid 75k a year and hes planning on working 20+ years longer $1,500,000.

Lets add that all together

Pro Riggers: $25,000

Your own way: $1,854,100


So whats cheaper? your way, or the pro way?


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## Les (Jan 7, 2011)

Good point Duck, but your numbers are a little off.


DuckJordan said:


> to do the effect professionaly $25,000.



Actually, that's a little high. For a simple lifting effect, it would probably *only* come to a few thousand. I emphasize 'only' because it is a small price to pay for life safety and peace of mind.

Also, not to sound shallow, but you also pay for their really good insurance in the extremely unlikely event that something does happen.


DuckJordan said:


> add in the cost of said basket breaking and the actor falling through breaking their spine, their arms and any other bone you can think of $350,000



Way higher. You'd be looking in the millions, most likely.


DuckJordan said:


> Then add in the costs of your director being fired for it lets say if he gets paid 75k a year and hes planning on working 20+ years longer $1,500,000.



Sadly, this is a little on the high side.

That said, I do get your point, and even though the numbers were a little off you make a valid argument.


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## NHStech (Jan 7, 2011)

gafftaper said:


> Actually Phil, while you are right that you should never use them as a break to slow the progress of the rope, I purposely refer to them as breaks and not locks. To me, lock implies that it is LOCKED and can't move. In reality it's a friction break that slows the movement of the rope, and hopefully, provides enough friction to prevent it from moving again. Either term you use, remember that a lineset is never 100% secured by the use of the "rope locks" or "hand breaks".


 
Now, this is interesting, as I have been told by the gentleman I replaced to use the handbreak to slow down the rope, so as to prevent rope burns and slivers (hemp at the time, but no longer) on your hands. Comments?


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## NHStech (Jan 7, 2011)

cprted said:


> Excellent advice from everyone already in this thread. Another point I would raise to your director is, while the picture looks good, you don't actually know how the basket is being raised. I would hope that one of the companies already mentioned was involved in the effect. We just had an arena tour of Wizard of OZ come through, the Foy roadcases literally took up half of a 53' trailer.


 
I would hope so too, and that is why I said it "appears." Not the most telling of pictures, so we don't know. 

Thanks to all of you for your posts. This gives me a lot to work with. I will definitely stick to my guns and research other technical means of giving the appearance of flying. (Research meaning probably looking here for other threads or posting some how to's?)


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## LXPlot (Jan 7, 2011)

A similar thing was actually done a few years ago at my school. We lifted "Peter Pan" of the ground in a production of the same name, and everything turned out alright. However, we had hired a professional company to set it up, and we paid a pretty penny for it. Secondly, it was a "teacher musical," so the lead character was a teacher and not student. Even so, it was not worth the large amount of time which had been put into it.

Tell your director that it just isn't plausible. He may argue, but you need to stress that it's dangerous for so many different reasons, would take a huge amount of labor to set up, and an equal large amount of labor to run efficiently during the show.

If you want a better way to do it, I recently saw a production of "Wizard of Oz" where the characters in the hot air ballon left stage, then a very small (maybe 3 feet by 1 ft) model of a balloon was moved onstage by a rope system (they had it set up to move across the stage on invisible string like a traveler curtain might.) 

Edit: I just remembered a good example of how hard and dangerous something like this can be. The new Spider Man musical has tons of professionals and a huge budget trying to do a similar thing to you, and they have had tons of failures and a few injuries. And their professionals.

Regardless of how you do it, lifting a kid in the air with a counterweight system is a terrible idea.


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## avkid (Jan 7, 2011)

NHStech said:


> Now, this is interesting, as I have been told by the gentleman I replaced to use the handbreak to slow down the rope, so as to prevent rope burns and slivers (hemp at the time, but no longer) on your hands. Comments?


 If you're so out of weight that things are moving out of control there are obviously bigger problems.


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## cprted (Jan 8, 2011)

NHStech said:


> Now, this is interesting, as I have been told by the gentleman I replaced to use the handbreak to slow down the rope, so as to prevent rope burns and slivers (hemp at the time, but no longer) on your hands. Comments?


 You're wearing your ropes out and you're in a situation where you have tacit permission to operate lines faster than you can safely control with hands/arms increasing the possibility of a runaway.

Want to prevent rope burn and slivers? Use gloves.


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## gafftaper (Jan 8, 2011)

NHStech said:


> Now, this is interesting, as I have been told by the gentleman I replaced to use the handbreak to slow down the rope, so as to prevent rope burns and slivers (hemp at the time, but no longer) on your hands. Comments?


 
No, echoing what has been said, if you can't control it while wearing gloves you are either way out of weight or you are operating to fast. Either way it's operator error and a dangerous situation. If you use the break/lock to slow the rope you can potentially damage both the rope and the break/lock. 

The only time you should really let something move fast on a counterweight system is if it's a light weight drop... which you can easily slow with gloves on. 

Whenever you work on my fly rail I want that arbor to slowly coast the last few feet until it gently kisses when it hit's bottom. You crash the arbor into the top or bottom on my crew and you are going into retraining, because you let it get out of control. An out of control lineset is deadly. Flat out Deadly it doesn't ask questions it just kills people. 

As for the cost of hiring a professional to do the show we hired Hall Associates for a pretty simple Peter Pan production last year and it cost $5000 plus travel expenses. The actual cost varies depending on where you are and the number and difficulty of the flights you want done. 

If you hire a pro for Oz you can have flying witches, flying monkeys, AND the hot air balloon.


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## kiwitechgirl (Jan 8, 2011)

Flying by Foy have Wizard of Oz packages available as a "standard" kind of thing....lots of info here. I did WoO in the UK a few years ago with a flying system from Foys and would not have done it any other way.


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## erosing (Jan 8, 2011)

Cost/Benefit of flying I have always looked at like this:

Location: Where are you located? Chicago, Los Angeles, New York, Orlando, Vegas, etc. and their vicinities, it's not worth doing unless your a college and you want your students to see what it's like to work with them (see if they can guest lecture a group or two as well!), or if you have a large amount of money to burn. Smaller cities, cities without a large theatre atmosphere (at least one without a heavy amount of flying effects). will see more benefits from such things.

Audience: Who's your target? Adults will get a kick out of it, as will little kids, the teenager group is probably more like half to a third will probably care enough to enjoy it. What is your capacity to sell ratio? If you are barely getting people in now, you don't have the funds to waste, if you're pulling in enough that you profit already but not as much as you could, keep reading.

Competition: This partly goes back to location, but also one must think of other big shows (concerts, movie openings, other large productions, elections, etc.) that will be going on at the same time. If there's a lot going on a flying effect may not draw any more than normal of a crowd to make up or exceed the expense.

Media: Can you play the media? If you have the exposure and you don't do a flying effect every year (show), then playing those cards and giving the media the exposure about something really cool happening now, will get you a bigger draw.

Budget: What's your budget? If it all goes towards an effect and every other aspect of the show blows, well you're not going to get much help from media or word of mouth. The rest of the production should be exemplary BEFORE you start adding (and paying big money) for special things (think renting a G.MA for a plot of 20 par cans that go up and down twice - senseless right). 

Profit: How much do you foresee making (avg. profit per production) without the flying effect factored in? If it's enough to barely cover the cost of the effect and nothing else, I wouldn't do it unless you can get significantly more people in. If you need to make as much money as possible, forego the flying effect. Most importantly, if you cannot afford to do the effect according to what your average profit per production is you should not be doing the effect (loosing $200 on a show is bad, loosing $3-4k is really bad). 

Cost: Find out what the effect is going to cost, how much is: 1 show, 1 weekend, two weekends, three weekends, 4 weekends? If you can do it great, if not, I'm sorry.



Magic formula for the absolutely desperate: If you really can't let the idea go, open the show weekend 1 and get great reviews, let the media (and everyone else) know (keep it as secret as possible until you make an announcement at the end of opening night) that you're doing a huge flying effect closing weekend that, 'completely changes the artistic direction of the show.' Having already hired the pros and set it up for them to come in (contact them months in advance so they can get everything spec'd, measured, and checked ahead of time and just have to come in and set it all up) and do the effect for your closing weekend. If you have enough of a crowd and hype (with a big enough venue to hold it all), you'll make money. But, the rest of your show has to be excellent to get that amount of media and hype from it, or have a LOT of friends each having a LOT of different friends.



Sorry about the amount of parentheses, I've had an infatuation for them recently, they are very addictive.


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## Tex (Jan 8, 2011)

The OP is in a school, so I would think that profit and location have very little to do with the decision to fly. The purpose of educational theatre is to educate, not make money, IMO. I'm happy if I get close to breaking even. If the school can afford it, it's a good experience for the students. I had a rigger come out yesterday to repair a lift line on one of our line sets. The kids were fascinated by the work that he did. I can only imagine how much they'll learn when somebody like Delbert Hall comes in to teach us to fly! 
Just another point of view...


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## erosing (Jan 8, 2011)

Tex said:


> The OP is in a school, so I would think that profit and location have very little to do with the decision to fly. The purpose of educational theatre is to educate, not make money, IMO. I'm happy if I get close to breaking even. If the school can afford it, it's a good experience for the students. I had a rigger come out yesterday to repair a lift line on one of our line sets. The kids were fascinated by the work that he did. I can only imagine how much they'll learn when somebody like Delbert Hall comes in to teach us to fly!
> Just another point of view...


 
Im aware the OP's in high school, but no money, no program. Administrators and boards don't like things that dry up the war chest because they can't at least somewhat support themselves. 

Other than that, I agree with you, if the school can afford it, by all means. When I referenced colleges I meant a college professor may be more likely then a high school teacher to convince those writing the checks that the flying effect is worth the money to do in a higher risk situation (like the possibilities of barely breaking even, if it all, because of the extra expense), because of it's educational benefits.

By the way, while I don't disagree that the purpose of educational theatre is to educate, I do believe that all theatre (and all art, for that matter) is educational, regardless if that was the intent or not.


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## mstaylor (Jan 8, 2011)

I didn't read the the two links posted above so I'm sorry if I am repeating a suggestion already made. To do the basket effect could you use a Genie with the basket built around it and a piece of black material to hide the lift as the basket goes up. It's safe and relatively cheap.


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## Tex (Jan 8, 2011)

Arez said:


> By the way, while I don't disagree that the purpose of educational theatre is to educate, I do believe that all theatre (and all art, for that matter) is educational, regardless if that was the intent or not.


I couldn't agree more!


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## ArthurRiot (Jan 8, 2011)

This is a school theatre? You don't HAVE to say 'no'. That's what the Principal is for. 

The issue is child safety. You only get that with an established rigger available.

We did Cats at the area HS last year. I had one actor come down on a rope-seat and another stand on a platform that was lifted off the stage via motors. In BOTH cases I spent weeks planning out every detail, purchased special harnesses, had fault lines and brought in a Pro Rigger. And that was the bare minimum for 2 simple up and downs, one a motorized platform with a seat.

You want to convince your director? Point to Spiderman: Turn off the Dark. That was professionally done. Imagine the worst happening. Now imagine what you tell the parents of the victim of the worst happening.


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## ArthurRiot (Jan 8, 2011)

Les said:


> Good point Duck, but your numbers are a little off.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



My estimates for my effects, which were going to be much more than they were and even what they were is more than what is being described, came to an estimated 7k. Nearly 1/4 your cost.

However, numbers aside, your explanation is accurate.


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## rochem (Jan 8, 2011)

I went through a very similar experience about a year ago at my high school. The TD at my school wanted to fly an actor in a wooden basket structure using a counterweight lineset and was deaf to any problems brought up by others. Without mentioning any names, I can say that some of the most respected individuals in the industry offered to personally call or write letters to the school administrators and the TD, and were basically willing to do anything in their power to ensure that a high school student wasn't put in danger because of a careless rigging choice. If your word alone isn't enough to convince the director, start moving up the ladder - make a formal presentation to the administration outlining the risks, including quotes from this thread and from others. If that still doesn't work, have some people start making calls - if you need more support, send some PMs to some people here, or talk to Jay Glerum/Bill Sapsis/Dr. Doom/ZFX/Foy or others. It may damage your relationship with the director, but it's better than damaging a student's future.


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## shiben (Jan 8, 2011)

you might be able to do this in a more interesting way by having some sort of scene change live, maybe if you can get a drop in the back with clouds on it that at the start of the act is only half visible, and its the ground with the sky or whatever in the back, and then when they get in the balloon and it begins to "fly" the drop moves down to reveal more "sky" looks. This could also be accomplished with some sort of projection (but thats another monster). As the "flight" begins, the rest of the set can just roll off into the wings, if you can track them upstage and have the balloon track downstage at the same time, it will make it look a bit more like the balloon is taking off. Obviously not as dramatic as actually having the thing fly up, but it might be a cool look? Not sure how the show works in the stage version, if there is more stuff going on onstage this might not work, but if its a scene change anyhow or can be worked into a scene change it might be a really effective way to end the scene, with the ground appearing to go down, wagons tracking up looking smaller, and the balloon coming down and appearing larger due to some perspective, and as the balloon gets to the edge of the stage, fade to black for the set? Just kind of shooting from the hip on solutions here, not totally aware of how the show works so it might be a dumb idea.


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