# Cardboard Gel Frames



## GoboMan (Jun 25, 2013)

The venue at which I am currently running a show has only cardboard gel frames in their inventory for their 8" fresnels. Twice now--TWICE--I have had problems during performances. The first time, a gel and the buckled frame fell onto the stage. The second time, I put fasteners in the corner of the gel frame but the frame still buckled and came half-way out of its seating and ruined the color wash on stage. 

What can I do to keep these cardboard frames to stay put? Furthermore, why even make frames out of cardboard to begin with?! Seems pretty illogical, if you ask me.


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## JD (Jun 25, 2013)

That is... Different. 
To me, there would be an inherent fire hazard. If the frame buckled so that it was in the beam, it could heat enough to ignite. Nothing like a flaming piece of cardboard falling from the ceiling to cause a little panic. I have heard about cardboard frames before but never saw or used them. I would push for the venue to ban their usage. Think of what an S4 costs... Then think of what a gel frame costs. What is the point in saving money on such an odd, and fairly inexpensive item?


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## gafftaper (Jun 25, 2013)

The one time I worked with cardboard frames, they were extremely rigid and had a fire retardant coating on them. They were supposedly safe to a very high temperature. The were not the least bit flexible like you describe. I wonder how old yours are. Seems like they should at least be replaced with new cardboard frames. 

A quick search shows that 8" cardboard frames cost about $3 while 8" steel frames cost about $7. I suggest you try to work $50-$100 extra into the budget of each show. Gradually replacing all your frames with steel.


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## GoboMan (Jun 25, 2013)

Unfortunately this is not our usual venue. We were forced out of our regular space due to unforeseen circumstances this summer and are using a different space for our shows, so budgeting for this space would not be our call. However, I will definitely make a firm suggestion to the venue's TD the next time I see them!


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## SteveB (Jun 25, 2013)

As much as I like cardboard frames for their safety factor, they don't work well in some fixtures. PAR64's and units without a full length color frame holder are typical. We have a drawer of about 36 10" paper frames that we never used as a result. I'd be looking for the frames that came with the fixtures, they would certainly be metal.


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## Repeater (Jun 25, 2013)

Our new building install of S4s came with a number of cardboard frames, along with the normal aluminum ones. They eventually cook and warp enough, or actually turn black and fall apart at the hot spots, to fall out of the fixture. But only in the S4 PARs. The ellipsoidals don't get hot enough. 

Yeah they are safer if you drop one, but for normal use I use them interchangeably in our ellipsoidals.

Laryn


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## techieman33 (Jun 26, 2013)

The only time I use cardboard is for cuts I use all the time. Like R33+R132 for a front wash, they get labeled as such and stapled together. Then when the color burns out (usually quite a while since we only do that with high transmission gel) the staples are removed, color replaced and stapled back together. Then there is always something quickly available to throw in fixtures without spending time putting color in frames.


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## jglodeklights (Jun 26, 2013)

I only use cardboard frames with my followspots, which are S4's on the City Theatrical yokes. No clinking when they swap color midshow, and even though they are tied off they are safer in case one falls from a perch. Would never use with wash instruments that spill light and heat everywhere. Considering what I've seen an Inky do to gel... higher wattage instruments are a recipe for the issues you are having.


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## gafftaper (Jun 26, 2013)

techieman33 said:


> The only time I use cardboard is for cuts I use all the time. Like R33+R132 for a front wash, they get labeled as such and stapled together. Then when the color burns out (usually quite a while since we only do that with high transmission gel) the staples are removed, color replaced and stapled back together. Then there is always something quickly available to throw in fixtures without spending time putting color in frames.



That's a really handy tip Techieman! Cardboard frames are cheap enough you could have a spare set on hand ready to go.


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## Kelite (Jun 26, 2013)

Thinline gel frames are inexpensive yet prevent the 'buckling' of the gel frame as referred in the original post. These are re-usable but are cheaper than conventional heavy gel frames- you may staple through the gel and frame and dispose at the end of the run w/o feeling guilty.




Apollo Design | ThinLine

These are an excellent alternative to cheesy cardboard frames-


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## techieman33 (Jun 26, 2013)

Kelite said:


> Thinline gel frames are inexpensive yet prevent the 'buckling' of the gel frame as referred in the original post. These are re-usable but are cheaper than conventional heavy gel frames- you may staple through the gel and frame and dispose at the end of the run w/o feeling guilty.
> View attachment 9591
> 
> 
> ...



I don't know about some people with big budgets, but I would feel pretty bad about throwing a $5.50 frame in the trash at then end of a run.


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## Kelite (Jun 26, 2013)

Roger that, I'm too cheap to toss anything I can reuse...

(But there are those that leave a fair amount food on their plates at restaurants and half empty pop bottles in the stands at ball games...)


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## JohnD (Jun 26, 2013)

Kelite said:


> cheesy cardboard frames-


Is that frames made from used pizza boxes?
In the interest of fairness, here are a couple of other companies which make cardboard frames(But they don't have someone like Keith working for them-their loss).

https://www.rosco.com/filters/safetyframes.cfm
Mainframes


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## techieman33 (Jun 26, 2013)

JohnD said:


> Is that frames made from used pizza boxes?
> In the interest of fairness, here are a couple of other companies which make cardboard frames(But they don't have someone like Keith working for them-their loss).
> 
> https://www.rosco.com/filters/safetyframes.cfm
> Mainframes



Apollos frame isn't paper, it's metal, it's just a very thin metal.


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## theatricalmatt (Jun 27, 2013)

Several venues I work with prefer cardboard frames; it's usually viewed as either a safety issue -- dropping a paper frame from a 30' high FOH position, or 72' high grid is much less dangerous than dropping a metal frame -- or an ease-of-use issue. If you store gel in cardboard frames, though, it makes it much easier to organize, but also much bulkier.

They seem to work best on ellipsoidals. I've had problems with burning when people insert a 7-1/2" old-school (Altman leko/fresnel) frame ito a Source Four PAR; the wider beamspread and narrower opening results in a very recognizable pattern burnt into the cardboard gel frame. But even PAR gel frames tend to burn or warp when it's a very saturated color -- especially the blues. I often end up putting them in a gel extender; but I'd do this to save the gel from burnthrough, anyway.

PAR 64 and especially Source Four 10 and 5 degree cardboard gel frames are pretty awful -- they're so weak and flimsy they're difficult to get into the gel frame slot of the instrument. We ended up swaging a long safety cable onto the gel frames FOH for safety reasons, and never use cardboard frames for those instruments.


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## LavaASU (Jun 27, 2013)

Just as a note, that $5.50 MSRP is not what major rental house or the tours they put together are paying for those. Probably $3-4 each. As much as I dislike the wastefulness that happens on that level shows and (especially) corporate, sometimes it's cheaper to save the staff time and toss stuff.


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## Kelite (Jun 27, 2013)

techieman33 said:


> Apollos frame isn't paper, it's metal, it's just a very thin metal.



Thank you techieman33. That is correct, the Thinline metal gel frames were developed for theatres with safety issues regarding the conventional, heavy gel frames. I recall the question being raised years ago when asked if I would rather get hit with a penny or a roll of toilet paper dropped from the observation deck of the (then) Sears Tower.

I replied- "neither." 

Installation companies also benefit from the lighterweight Thinline gel frames as the cost savings in qty is significant in retail and commercial applications. just a thought-


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## CBR372 (Jun 27, 2013)

We used cardboard frames for our end of the year dance concert. Much more convenient to have all your gels framed and ready to be swapped in between pieces than having to re-frame using our limited stock of steel frames. We never had any burning or warping issues however.


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## SteveB (Jun 27, 2013)

CBR372 said:


> We never had any burning or warping issues however.



The "paper" frames are problematic in S4 Pars. We get burning on the inside of the frame and the frames are useless after a few shoes, thus use metal frames exclusively with 750w pars and ParNels.


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## venuetech (Jun 28, 2013)

Note: from city theatrical mainframe page



> Note: The Mainframes fiber material is flameproof and will not burn, but some hot wash lights will cause it to dry and crack. Best performance is with hard edge ellipsoidals like Source Four.


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## SteveB (Jun 28, 2013)

venuetech said:


> Note: from city theatrical mainframe page



Well, OK, it doesn't have flames coming off it, but it does turn black/brown, gets brittle and flakes off in your hand. 

Same thing in the long run, frame is toast. Burnt toast.


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## jglodeklights (Jun 30, 2013)

Kelite said:


> Thank you techieman33. That is correct, the Thinline metal gel frames were developed for theatres with safety issues regarding the conventional, heavy gel frames. I recall the question being raised years ago when asked if I would rather get hit with a penny or a roll of toilet paper dropped from the observation deck of the (then) Sears Tower.
> 
> I replied- "neither."
> 
> Installation companies also benefit from the lighterweight Thinline gel frames as the cost savings in qty is significant in retail and commercial applications. just a thought-



One rental house I've worked with has primarily Apollo Thinline frames. I have to say I would probably use them to replace the frames of most houses I work in, or use them to create my second set of frames in a rep situation (if not both). They are actually easier to insert gel in because of the added flexibility before having to deform it. Also, in some older generations of S4 lens tubes they just fit better. Or in those that have been "refinished" by spray painting. 

I like 'em.


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