# Sub-woofer decision....



## ROFLCopter (Mar 15, 2010)

Hey, I am pronounced with a dilemma and I need help choosing a pair of 18" subs to handle a 250 room that is about 20 foot high ceilings, about 45-60 feet wide, and 140 feet long with a small 25X25' cafe on the left side of the room.

I have a 700 watt @ 8ohms pgm 20hz-20khz amp on hand to power the subs.

My trouble is finding a pair to fit in the sub $1,000 range. I will do 15" but I'd prefer 18" if possible. I've already ruled out getting a powered set sadly. I've that 15" subs are really punchy, but 18" would be the better choice because of the lower tones you can reach with them.

I've never used Peavey, Harbinger, or American Audio. I know all those brands are pretty low on the totem poll but I need it to handle a youth ministry worship set which includes rock band style to soft acoustic sets with dejembe or synth from time to time.

Thanks for you help.


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## SHARYNF (Mar 15, 2010)

What tops are you going to use them with?

Remember that subs work best next to one another and NOT one in each corner, so you might look at a dual 18 cabinet. Your amp is 700 per channel or total?
What kind of music, is it live or DJ or ???

Sharyn


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## rwhealey (Mar 16, 2010)

The EV TourX 1181 is in the $550 per box range.

Never used one myself, but I've heard they sound good.


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## tweetersaway (Mar 16, 2010)

Take a good look at the Yamaha Club Series. It's really solid gear at a nice price. If you're looking to keep the pair together, you might want to consider a dual sub cabinet like the Yamaha SW218V. If you'd prefer the single woofer version, check out the SW118V. I've seen the 218 in action and with the right amp, it it is easily enough for a 150x150x20 room with around 200 people and I use the monitor wedges from the same series day in day out. It gives some nice sound for the price point.

I'd shy away from the low end Peavey 118 cab that runs for about 400 bucks, I've heard bad things about them having a weak low end and drivers that couldn't handle much power at all.

Also, if you want another good name brand, take a look at the JBL JRX118. We used a pair of those with EV 215 tops for a christian rock band with a similar setup and they rocked pretty hard.

I'd go with the Yammies, but that's my two cents. Yes, you can get a decent pair of subs for less than 1k.


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## ROFLCopter (Mar 16, 2010)

SHARYNF said:


> What tops are you going to use them with?



With a pair of pull mounted Mackie SA1521's 400 watt 2-way with a 15" woofer cone.

Why do subs sound better together then apart like for instance, on each side of the room? Do they phase each other out?

The amp is 700 watts bridged mono.

The music is live.


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## SHARYNF (Mar 16, 2010)

Here is a very good and detailed tech article
But basically what is created is a bass alley where there is a significant amount of cancellation. Putting the cabinets together also increases the performance

http://www.dynacord.com/downloads/dsp244_info_bass_en.pdf

Back to your original question

IMO for a match with the Mackies you are underpowered, 700 watts bridged is on the low side. You also need to make sure that the AMP will take a 4 ohm load bridged, in a lot of cases this will NOT work.

For the Money My suggestion that I would do is to get your self A Yorkville LS801p These have a built in 1500 watt amp, work well, and you could get away with just one but you are looking at about 1300 dollars

They have a built in roll off filter etc 

You could look at the Yorkville Unity UCS1

http://www.yorkville.com/products.asp?type=29&cat=38&id=317
They run about 700 dollars each and would use your amp (but just one with your amp)

PSW Sound Reinforcement Forums: Product Reviews: Sound Reinforcement => Yorkville UCS1


To Do it right you need to get a crossover and put the subs below 100hz and just high pass 100hz and up to the Mackies, this will relieve some of the demands on your Mackies.

The Mackie 18 inch subs are not very good, and the 15's IMO don't have the efficiency you need. IMO the JRX series from JBL the J stands for Junk (Just my opinion)

Remember the performance is less to do with the wattage but the efficiency of the cabinet. The cabinets that have been recommended above (Yamaha etc) tend to be somewhat inefficient and take a lot of power

Yamaha SW-218 V

So if you look at the Yamaha 218v with 96 db at 1m and the yorkville with 102 db at 1m you will see that there is a 6 db difference, this is significant performance, and means that typically it will sound like it is twice as loud and would take 4 times the amp power to achieve the same level


This is all sort of an oversimplification but to make the point another way

If you had the Yamaha you would need a 2800 watt amp to get the same perceived level of sound from the Yorkville UCS1

why I recommend the LS801p 

http://www.yorkville.com/products.asp?type=29&cat=2&id=382

is the Max SPL is 134 DB

the USC1P powered version 
http://www.yorkville.com/products.asp?type=29&cat=38&id=363

the Max spl is 131 DB

Anyway hope this helps and is not too confusing

In summary If you cannot spend additional funds to get powered them I would go with one USC1, If you could swing the bucks I would go for a LS801P( it has a built in mono summing setup to combine l and r lows)

I would look at getting a simple two way crossover so that I could keep the highs out of the sub and the lows out of the mackies like an Ashly Xr1001 
Sharyn


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## bishopthomas (Mar 16, 2010)

I will second the Yorkville LS801P. I used one (and only one) in a large church and it certainly did the job. A HUGE step up from the Bose crap they thought would be a good idea to install before I came along.


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## Morpheus (Mar 16, 2010)

Sort of on topic, I recently demo'd 4 ISP XMAX415's in my campus' church...
I liked them a lot better than our current passive 18's... EAW i think?
I'm not too sure about the price, but i think they come in close to the LS801p.


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## felixm (Mar 16, 2010)

I have a pair of Yamaha SW218V's they are nice and move air. I run them with an XTI4000 and they still could take more power IMO. If you are going doing Cristian Rock I would opt for 15's myself. I do rock bands a lot and I would rather the punch of 15's. My one friend has 6 EV 15 and they hit harder and just as deep as my 18's. 

I have heard that JBL has for a long time wired their speakers out of phase, this is mil spec so if you go with JBL's and the sound is lacking out of the box try to flipping the phase.


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## pmolsonmus (Mar 16, 2010)

Definitely consider the new QSC line, they are a bit pricier than your original quote, but I've been a JBL fan all my life and these (and their powered mains) are excellent.
I haven't used them long term but I have spoken to others who have had them on the road (touring bands) for over a year w/out problems.
I have used QSC amps without fail for years. My .02

Phil


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## SHARYNF (Mar 16, 2010)

The problem with these solutions (passive) is that the OP only has a 700 watt program bridged amp. Typically amps (0p did not specify) don't like 4 ohm cabinets. the Mackies SA1521 have a max spl of 133 db
Mackie - sa1521

And of course it is based on 15 inch woofer.

SO IMO you either need a very efficient cabinet that can be passive Like the Yorkie Unity and not need a lot of power, OR IMO a better solution would be the Yorkie ls801p with the larger Sub and the 1500 watt amp

JBL SRX subs need tons of powers 
The comparison of a system with 6 15's for subs is way out of the OP price range

IMO the QSC with the 700 watt built in HPR151 is not going to cut it, you would have to move ip to the hpr181 which is the same price as the Yorkie
Ls801p

It would come down to preference, most folks still think the yorkies are louder and push further, but QSC makes a good product

Sharyn 

Sharyn


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## felixm (Mar 17, 2010)

If you can listen to a pair of Harbinger HP118s sub you should. I heard a pair with the QSC K12 tops and it is one of the few powered subs that can keep up with their SPL in my opinion. At 699.99 you could get 2 if you could pull together the extra 400, if not I think you could get away with 1 for now. Maybe you could sell the amp you have to cover the extra cost.


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## pmolsonmus (Mar 17, 2010)

Haven't been on this forum for a long time, so I don't know the general consensus. But, (without trying to start a flame war) Harbinger/Behringer might suit your input/output needs and while I will admit that some of their products do, in fact, work fine and don't sound bad. Please note....
Be advised if you buy products from this company that they regularly practice reverse engineering. They buy other companies products who have invested time and energy in development and develop a way to replace the electronics with many cheap components. (I can post schematics if you're interested).
It may suit your short term needs, but their prices undercut the market and will eventually put quality companies out of business. It is your money, but spend with knowledge.

A google search on this subject will produce significant reading.


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## SHARYNF (Mar 18, 2010)

Here is a link for the Harbinger HP118

http://www.music123.com/Harbinger-HP118S-Powered-Loudspeaker-502250-i1478660.Music123

if you look at the specs the amp is really 500 watts, and the spl is 129, 100oz magnet on a 18 inch speaker is on the low side

It really depends on your situation some folks go with Carvin or Behringer or Harbinger but you definitely are in the more off brand solutions.

Sharyn


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## ROFLCopter (Mar 19, 2010)

Thank you all for the great deal of knowledge.

My Shure friend has told me all the stories of Behringher. But I had no idea that Harbinger did the same thing.

I could look into selling the amp which would help.

I have a DBX 2/3 crossover at the moment. My pretend subs are Mackie SR1530's which is not cutting the mustard obviously.

I will look into some 15" cabs like you guys suggested. I need to attach a photo of the room so you can get a better idea of my dilemma for putting subs on each side. I would prefer to stick two cabs together, but the stage is set in a half circle fashion.




That's an older pic from last summer.

The floor standing speakers lay on the ground now since I get a better sound for some reason. Three stage wedges sit across the front of the stage in a normal show.


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## bishopthomas (Mar 19, 2010)

ROFLCopter said:


> Three stage wedges sit across the front of the stage in a normal show.



So if you go with the one sub setup put it in front of the center wedge. Depending on your needs you could put the monitor on top of the sub if it helps (depends on the angle you need, though).


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## ROFLCopter (Mar 22, 2010)

bishopthomas said:


> So if you go with the one sub setup put it in front of the center wedge. Depending on your needs you could put the monitor on top of the sub if it helps (depends on the angle you need, though).



Oh man, there's an idea.

Thanks!


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## bishopthomas (Mar 22, 2010)

Just make sure you walk to the front periodically while mixing, that way nobody front and center gets slammed by the low end. More boxes is about coverage at least as much as SPL, so that's the only drawback with one up front. When I was using the single Yorkville sub it was on far stage left on audience level, but there was at least 12' between it and the audience, giving it room to disperse.


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## ROFLCopter (Mar 25, 2010)

bishopthomas said:


> but there was at least 12' between it and the audience, giving it room to disperse.



Yeah, that depends on what songs are played each week. most times people are about 6-8 feet from the stage, so I may stick two cabinets if possible on each side in line with the mains for a more even sound.

I see why you all would want a single in front. It makes the best sense. But I don't think it's doable since the room is multi purpose so I need it to be as clean looking as possible. Now my setup now isn't very clean but it's what I have to deal with right now.


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## SHARYNF (Mar 25, 2010)

The idea that two subs one on each side gives more even sound is not correct. If you look at the research and the testing with high end tools these days, this creates a bass alley and causes all sorts of issues. You would be better putting the two subs off to one side splitting them is what people think will work, but it really does not

Sharyn


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## DuckJordan (Mar 27, 2010)

ROFLCopter said:


> The floor standing speakers lay on the ground now since I get a better sound for some reason. Three stage wedges sit across the front of the stage in a normal show.




Its because floors tend to re-verb the bass and send the vibrations through the floor making the floor act as a re-verb cone. I have a friend who works with home theater installs. That's why in a home theater a sub that runs on 35 watts of power is really all you need because its using the floor as a reflector cone.


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## DaveySimps (Mar 27, 2010)

DuckJordan said:


> Its because floors tend to re-verb the bass and send the vibrations through the floor making the floor act as a re-verb cone. I have a friend who works with home theater installs. That's why in a home theater a sub that runs on 35 watts of power is really all you need because its using the floor as a reflector cone.



This is actually not reverb at all, but coupling of the sub with the floor. You had the principal right, completely inaccurate term. This is why you get(at times) more bass out of stacking two subs together in the center, as opposed to keeping one cabinet on either side of a stage. 

~Dave


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## DuckJordan (Mar 27, 2010)

sorry i was in a hurry and couldn't think of the right term.


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## ROFLCopter (Mar 28, 2010)

Has anyone heard of Wharfedale pro audio?


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## museav (Mar 28, 2010)

ROFLCopter said:


> That's an older pic from last summer.
> 
> The floor standing speakers lay on the ground now since I get a better sound for some reason. Three stage wedges sit across the front of the stage in a normal show.


Are the floor and stand speakers both covering the same listener area or does each cover a different area? If they cover the same area you might consider getting rid of the floor standing speakers and investing what you can get for them in better subs and processing.

I think what Sharyn keeps trying to get across is that you have to look at everything as a system. All the speakers and the room itself have to work together to get the optimum result. If the subs can't keep up with your mains then are you okay with reducing the mains performance? Although many sub sensitivity numbers can be rather misleading, if you have a specific amp for the subs then you might have to look at things like the rated sensitivity for the subs to make sure they can provide sufficient output to properly match your mains. Also, don't get caught up in just 15" versus 18", there are a lot of other factors that can go into designing and building a subwoofer.

Have you ever considered putting acoustical absorption on the walls behind the drums or a lid on the drum enclosure? There may be a number of acoustics related things you could do to improve the sound in that space both with and without the sound system.

Perhaps the picture is misleading but you noted that the room is 45'-60' by 140' however the band and system seems setup in a corner almost as though the room is square. If the room really is that large and 140' deep, have you ever considered having an installed system with the speakers flown? You might be able to get much better coverage and get more of the sound aimed at the listeners rather than at the walls and ceiling with such an approach.


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## ROFLCopter (Mar 29, 2010)

I have considered all of those factors, but the trouble is this, the room is shared, my youth leader is very cheap.

I'd love to get some flyable speakers, but I don't think I could sell both pairs of mackies and make out with decent flying speakers. A friend of mine and I were thinking of building boxes to put the pole speakers(or the floor mackies on and use those instead since they are actually three way, but has a blown mid range in one of them which is why they are pretend subs. previous owners, don't ask....). This room used to be a bar and had at least 15-20 24" sized crt tv's hanging from the /\ shaped ceiling, so I know it's strong enough.

I'm working with a church that a couple years ago almost closed it's doors due to financial imbalance, otherwise that room would have a much better system, but the fact is that that room is used by people who don't know a screw driver from a hole in the floor, so it wouldn't be economical at this time. I've been trying for years to work full time there, but it's not feasible for some reason.

The stage is set in the corner because the room is setup as a banquet room of some sort. The booth is angled straight on which hurts alot.


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## SHARYNF (Mar 29, 2010)

Here is what I would suggest

Get the mid in the SR1530 replaced, you should be able to open up the mackie and get the speaker reconed. Give Doug at speakerguy AT earthlink.net or P# 360-271-4262 WA. State a call to get an idea of cost

The Sr1530's cannot be pole mounted or flown, but you could raise them up from the floor. The inexpensive rolling scaffolding that sells for about 150 dollars a section might work

Then I would look at placing the other mackies on stands down on the sides of the room, and get a time delay so that you can time align them 

What probably is not clear to you is that when you just place speakers together they start to interfere with one another and you get all sorts of comb filtering

Doing this IMO is going to give you a much better solution, allow for better coverage in a odd utilization of the room, and not break the bank


Sharyn


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## ROFLCopter (Mar 30, 2010)

SHARYNF said:


> The Sr1530's cannot be pole mounted



Who told you that?


mackie themselves said:


> A built-in _pole_-mount cup is provided on the bottom



And if there's a built in pole mount, then what's it for? I saw the online manual and it says that the speakers are not meant to be pole mounted, but for the first 7 years of these speakers lives, they were used on some Ultimate speakers stands, which had no problem at all. So that's pretty interesting that they say that.

I know that basically any mackies from the SR and SA era of speakers were never built to be flown, but whats wrong in building a box around the cabinet?


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## avkid (Mar 30, 2010)

The problem with pole mounting these is that most tripod stands aren't rated for the weight.


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## avkid (Mar 30, 2010)

ROFLCopter said:


> I know that basically any mackies from the SR and SA era of speakers were never built to be flown, but whats wrong in building a box around the cabinet?


Are you prepared for the liability involved?


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## SHARYNF (Mar 30, 2010)

Long story but used to be an investor in Mackie

The cup was designed to be used with a WALL MOUNT the problem with the pole mount is the the ultimate stands etc were just not stable and they had a tendancy to fall over. The cup if I recall is not like on the SRM450 which has a locking mechanism


Building anything that is a box that supports something over peoples heads is very very tricky. Usually not recommended. The problem is you need to make sure that the cabinet is securely mounted to the box, and then you need to make sure that you have built a box that will hold the load at the joints

I have seen some attempts where for instance the mounting was on the side panels of the box and the bottom fell off 

Most of the time the issue is that the front of the speaker cabinet with the speakers will not safely support the weight of the speakers if the cabinet is leaning forward OR the speakers them selves are not securely supported.

In the design usually there is a trade off to easy access to the speakers them selves and the integrity of the design.

Basically you need to have a point that will support the full system but also is engineered in such a way (in combination with the cabinet/speaker) that the entire assembly is totally supportive and nothing will be stressed and come loose


So usually I would say DONT ATTEMPT to build a cabinet that is flown 

Sharyn


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## museav (Mar 30, 2010)

ROFLCopter said:


> Who told you that?




ROFLCopter said:


> And if there's a built in pole mount, then what's it for? I saw the online manual and it says that the speakers are not meant to be pole mounted, but for the first 7 years of these speakers lives, they were used on some Ultimate speakers stands, which had no problem at all. So that's pretty interesting that they say that.
> 
> I know that basically any mackies from the SR and SA era of speakers were never built to be flown, but whats wrong in building a box around the cabinet?


This is from the Mackie SR1530z manual:


> *WARNING: *The cabinet has no rigging points and is not suitable for rigging. *NEVER *attempt to suspend the SR1530z by its handles. The SR1530z should never be pole-mounted.


 and

> Mounting Methods *Floor mount only. *The SR1530z should never be pole-mounted. The cabinet has no rigging points and is not suitable for flying. Never attempt to suspend the cabinet by its handles.


[FONT=SQYEZL+Century-BookCondensedIta,Century][FONT=SQYEZL+Century-BookCondensedIta,Century][FONT=SQYEZL+Century-BookCondensedIta,Century]"...not suitable for flying" and "should never be pole-mounted" seems pretty clear and direct. Can't stop anyone from doing either but can say they would pretty clearly be doing so with the knowledge that it is not recommended and at their own risk.[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=SQYEZL+Century-BookCondensedIta,Century][FONT=SQYEZL+Century-BookCondensedIta,Century][FONT=SQYEZL+Century-BookCondensedIta,Century]I understand that you have limited resources and are trying to do the best you can with what you have. But there is a point where expectations and functionality may have to be compromised to work withing those limitations. [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=SQYEZL+Century-BookCondensedIta,Century][FONT=SQYEZL+Century-BookCondensedIta,Century][FONT=SQYEZL+Century-BookCondensedIta,Century]Consider that the SR1530z are supposedly capable of a long term output of 123dB (126dB peak) with a -3dB response down to 50Hz and a -10dB response of 38Hz. For subwoofers to improve on what you already have they would seem to have to exceed those numbers and apparently do so with the existing amplifier (which may be rated 700W @ 8 Ohms in bridge mono mode but would most likely not be operating that way with two subs). I[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]t isn't just a matter of adding subwoofers but of adding subwoofers that could provide noticeably improved performance over the existing system. It may be possible but balancing getting much improvement with your $1,000 budget may be tricky and, unfortunately, the type of information required to make a valid comparison of product specs is often not provided for lower cost products.

[FONT=SQYEZL+Century-BookCondensedIta,Century][FONT=SQYEZL+Century-BookCondensedIta,Century][FONT=SQYEZL+Century-BookCondensedIta,Century]As to why to group subs, because they reproduce only low frequencies when subs are grouped the sounds from the two subs are within 1/4 wavelength of one another for all listeners, thus they acoustically couple and you get some free increase in the resulting output. In addition, when you split subs apart physically the phase relationship between them varies over the listener area and thus the resulting frequency response varies over that area as well with a tendency to have a 'power alley' with higher levels down the middle (where the distances to, and thus relative phase of, the two subs are more equal) and varying response off to the sides.
[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]


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