# Electric Remote Winch



## Austinro (May 11, 2007)

We are doing a choral/dance routine to some of the music of Jesus Christ Superstar in a couple of weeks. Because this is a Catholic school, there is a huge cross hung above the stage that we generally take down for shows and such. For this show, we would like to do something different and lower the cross remotely for "Superstar." Combined with a flying scrim and some gobos, it should be an amazing effect. For this plan we need a winch that can be remotely operated. It only needs to lift 50-100 lbs, but it needs to be remote to around 200 ft (the distance to the control booth). We can run cables as needed. The lift speed doesn't need to be that fast.
Thanks


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## Footer (May 11, 2007)

how much money you have? Your going to need a serious winch to do what you need to do. To SAFELY control a moving load with an AC motor, you need a variable frequency drive and everything that goes along with that, some sort of controller, a brake for the winch, motor and drum, shivs, cable, and all that other stuff. Your looking in the 5-10k range for the whole setup. You are not going to be able to go out and simply get an off the shelf 12v car winch and make this happen, they are not intended to hold things over someones head. 

So... with that said... I would stay WAY away from an electric winch of any kind, unless you want to rent a chain motor which would be totally doable and safe, slow, but safe. So a few questions.... have you guys ever flown anything before? Do you have a grid of any type? I am going to assume you do not have any linesets. You could rig up a pretty simple block and tackle system that would easily fly what you want, however, if you don't have any clue what that means, you should not be doing it and no one here will help you.


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## Austinro (May 11, 2007)

We have manual flypoints to where we need to go, as we fly things all the time. We want to automate as much as we can, hence the motor. And we have a special tech motto, and it goes to the tune of "Nothing is too sketchy for ________ theater." We just need a remote winch for relatively inexpensive. If we don't find anything, we'll just probably make one and run an extension cord. If we run a worm gear, we won't need a brake, as the downward force won't have enough torque to pull the gear. We would like to buy or rent something rather then having to go through the trouble of making it. 
We had specialists come in the past to make actors fly for Peter Pan, and through that we learned a good deal of the basics. We also have an alum who is the brother of the current light designer who recently graduated from UCON with a tech theater degree, and we have some Tish graduates who we have in the rolodex if we need help in a pinch.


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## Footer (May 11, 2007)

I don't think you understand that if you are not qualified for this, you should not be doing this. Controlling items with motors is one thing, and its pretty easy to do, but doing overhead automation of any kind is a serious risk if not done properly. Also, ANYTHING OVERHEAD HAS TO HAVE A BRAKE, PERIOD. Odds our this thread will get closed because it is discussing rigging, but before that happens I think we need to get it through your head that you should not be doing this work. I am not even going to bother touching the "Nothing is too sketchy for ________ theater." That is just a horrible idea. If you want to do this right, go rent a chain motor, it will set you back 150 a week. Your best bet would be to rig it to a lineset and fly it, I have no idea why you are trying to over "engineer" this, and I say that very loosely. Learn the KISS method, Keep it simple stupid.

I am happy that foy or ZFX came in to do your fly work, but haveing a brother of someone thats an LD does not mean he can rig, the lighting guy can rig, or you can rig.


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## icewolf08 (May 11, 2007)

I shall refer you to Creative Conners Inc.. It sounds like what you need is the "Pushstick" and the Avista Controller. I believe all can be rented from them.


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## Footer (May 12, 2007)

icewolf08 said:


> I shall refer you to Creative Conners Inc.. It sounds like what you need is the "Pushstick" and the Avista Controller. I believe all can be rented from them.



Thats a great company, and they make some great stuff. If that is in your price range, go for it, I would have them send a tech to set it up though. Running automation is easy, setting limits and safe working speeds for automation, not any fun unless you know what you are doing.


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## What Rigger? (May 12, 2007)

Footer4321 said:


> I don't think you understand that if you are not qualified for this, you should not be doing this. Controlling items with motors is one thing, and its pretty easy to do, but doing overhead automation of any kind is a serious risk if not done properly. Also, ANYTHING OVERHEAD HAS TO HAVE A BRAKE, PERIOD. Odds our this thread will get closed because it is discussing rigging, but before that happens I think we need to get it through your head that you should not be doing this work. I am not even going to bother touching the "Nothing is too sketchy for ________ theater." That is just a horrible idea. If you want to do this right, go rent a chain motor, it will set you back 150 a week. Your best bet would be to rig it to a lineset and fly it, I have no idea why you are trying to over "engineer" this, and I say that very loosely. Learn the KISS method, Keep it simple stupid.
> I am happy that foy or ZFX came in to do your fly work, but haveing a brother of someone thats an LD does not mean he can rig, the lighting guy can rig, or you can rig.



Footer, you're the man! 

"Nothing is too sketchy for ________ theater." is scientific proof that the inmates are running the asylum. AKA- you. are. an. idiot.
So I will say to Austinro: Stop. You, your pals, your in-laws, your acquaintances, your LD or whomever- are NOT riggers. Go hire an actual rigger.


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## cutlunch (May 12, 2007)

Austrino I am with Footer. This sounds like an unsafe project unless you pay professionals to come and install this equipment.

Also remote controlling it from the booth adds to the danger. This should be controlled from the stage to prevent accidents. The operator needs to have a clear line of sight to prevent accidents.

How were your fly crew trained. Was it handme down traing from the last crew or did you have qualified trainer come in.

If your crew hasn't had qualified training then spend the money on that instead.

Definitely do not design the system yourself without professional help.
Your comment about not needing a brake scares me.

Whatever you are flying will be exerting back pressure on the motor.
A worm gear without a brake won't stop the motor from turning when it is unpowered. Different weights will just mean the scenery comes down at a different rate. Ask your physics teacher if you don't believe me.

Just remember you and your fellow high schoolers are not bullet proof.
If you have enough trained flyemen just fly it in. You can disolve the scrim with lighting then fly it out. It wouldn't also need to be done all at the same time. Also how would you stop the cross from swinging as it's been lowered?

Sorry for the lecture but the old adage is "Safety First".


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## gafftaper (May 12, 2007)

Sorry Austinro, but I've got to agree. This is a VERY dangerous thing you are thinking about doing. Just because Foy came in and flew people for Peter Pan doesn't mean you suddenly know what you are doing. If you make a mistake someone could very likely get killed. GAME OVER, no reset button! Lifting heavy things over head is very dangerous and should never be attempted without professional rigging help. 

I keep telling this story but no one listens... Our college rents a larger proscenium theater for big musicals. In order to just fly a couple of drops in and out on their fly system, my *ADULT* student has to spend three days working with their in house flying guy before he will be given the ok to run the system on his own. THAT is how serious just running a simple counterweight system is out in the real world kids. Now your incompetent theater teacher may think a student "knows" what they are doing because Jimmy who graduated last year taught him how to do it. But that's not safe! The same thing goes for what you are talking about. Any time you lift something heavy over head you need a REAL PROFESSIONAL who KNOWS what they are doing.


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## soundman (May 12, 2007)

If you have linesets why not use them? to save one crew person? I have built winches for moveing set peices on deck and there was nothing simple about it. The pharse all you got to do.. is something that makes my blood boil. Sure put in a worm gear, but this is the real world not some lego set were everything matches up and there are standereds. A pro star motor is not that much a week even with someone coming in to set it all up.


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## Footer (May 12, 2007)

soundman said:


> If you have linesets why not use them? to save one crew person? I have built winches for moveing set peices on deck and there was nothing simple about it. The pharse all you got to do.. is something that makes my blood boil. Sure put in a worm gear, but this is the real world not some lego set were everything matches up and there are standereds. A pro star motor is not that much a week even with someone coming in to set it all up.



no, a motor will not run that much a week with a package to go with it, but if you are renting just one motor, your going to be paying for it.


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## soundman (May 12, 2007)

Footer4321 said:


> no, a motor will not run that much a week with a package to go with it, but if you are renting just one motor, your going to be paying for it.



I looked quick online and found half ton loadstars for under a $125 a week which isnt too bad. Building a unit to raise and lower will be about 4 times that at least and not be rated.


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## koncept (May 13, 2007)

i've seen some homemade fly systems work...and i watched them fail while lifting just a 30-35 lbs. it came crashing to the stage floor and stoped about a foot from hitting it when a pully ripped out. thankfuly this was durring intermission and the stage was empty while things were being reset. I would hate to imagine what would happen with a larger load and another homemade fly system


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## avkid (May 13, 2007)

koncept said:


> i've seen some homemade fly systems work...and i watched them fail while lifting just a 30-35 lbs.


This is why having a bunch of mechanical and structural engineers hanging is always a good thing for a high school.


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## gafftaper (May 14, 2007)

koncept said:


> i've seen some homemade fly systems work...and i watched them fail while lifting just a 30-35 lbs. it came crashing to the stage floor and stoped about a foot from hitting it when a pully ripped out. thankfuly this was durring intermission and the stage was empty while things were being reset. I would hate to imagine what would happen with a larger load and another homemade fly system



Exactly. That is why you don't try to rig something yourself especially when your motto is "Nothing is too sketchy for ________ theater."


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## koncept (May 14, 2007)

fyi this was not a high school theatre....:-(


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## stantonsound (May 14, 2007)

ok, I would like to take this one step further, if no one minds. I was recently working at a high school as the LD. I am technically a rigger. I have rigged shows, and have attended Mountain Rigging School, workshops with Tomcat and Applied, etc, etc..... I, however, feel that I do not rig enough to be proficient at it and hire a rigger whenever I am putting big stuff up in the air.

I was at the school and there was a father of a student, who is a residential construction worker (builds houses) with a few students and they were putting a $99 cable winch that they bought at Sams Club up in the air to fly a person in the show. They were going to bolt it to extra 2" lighting pipes that were in the show and put the pipes above the building steel. They were using standard hardware store zinc bolts and nuts and no washers to attach the winch to holes they had drilled in the pipe.

I suggested that they hire a rigger, talked to the director and the TD, as well as the head of the department. They were convinced that this would be safe and would not take my advice.




What does everyone think about that?!?


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## Footer (May 14, 2007)

stantonsound said:


> ok, I would like to take this one step further, if no one minds. I was recently working at a high school as the LD. I am technically a rigger. I have rigged shows, and have attended Mountain Rigging School, workshops with Tomcat and Applied, etc, etc..... I, however, feel that I do not rig enough to be proficient at it and hire a rigger whenever I am putting big stuff up in the air.
> I was at the school and there was a father of a student, who is a residential construction worker (builds houses) with a few students and they were putting a $99 cable winch that they bought at Sams Club up in the air to fly a person in the show. They were going to bolt it to extra 2" lighting pipes that were in the show and put the pipes above the building steel. They were using standard hardware store zinc bolts and nuts and no washers to attach the winch to holes they had drilled in the pipe.
> I suggested that they hire a rigger, talked to the director and the TD, as well as the head of the department. They were convinced that this would be safe. I told them that I wanted no part of this, but suggested that they at least use grade 8 hardware and use a winch rated at more than 150 lbs. I have no idea what they used, as I finished my design and left.
> In the end, it worked. It lifted the student about 30 feet in the air and then back down.
> What does everyone think about that?!?



You should have called OSHA, local fire dept, the schools insurance company. You should have not walked out of the building saying "its not my issue" when in fact because you knew better, it was your issue. That is very unprofessional to walk out and know that they were still going to roll with it. If you see something unsafe, I don't care if your driving down the highway and see someone on a scaffold without a harness, its your duty to report it. I might sound a bit harsh here, but you should never walk out of somewhere with a known life safety risk and let it still happen.


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## stantonsound (May 14, 2007)

deleted post


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## len (May 14, 2007)

Odd how two threads get started so close to each other http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5177


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## What Rigger? (May 15, 2007)

Okay, I think I know what Stanton is thinking. Dude, let me say this much: that story about the dad and his winch idea just makes my blood run cold. Contractors like that guy are a sack of hammers (as in "dumb as a sack of hammers", yes). I've dealt with guys like that before and there's only two things you can do:
1. Become a raging @$$hole and make him run and hide. Become the Ted Nugent Alpha Male. Assert yo' self, as a few have seen me do here on this board. 
2. Disable that sh*t! Pull the power and cut his AC line. Snip his 'cable'. Destroy the mofo winch! I've done this more than once in one venue. Not only is it fun to do, it's easier to sleep at night.

Now, I'm NOT suggesting anyone endanger themselves, or get into physical confrontations. Also be aware there can be a legal liability if you destroy others property (and here endeth the Cover Your @$$). People WILL hate you for being safe. They will talk $hit. They will resort to all sorts of juvenile, "come on, everybody else does it" behavior. Being OSHA certified as a Competent Person in fall protection, trust me, I know! We must ALL resist this crap, stand up and be safe. The best way I've found to combat these idiots- after I lay the science and the law on them- is this: "At the end of the day, your family expects you to come home. Can you see the future and tell me there will be no failures, or are you and the people who use this simply expendable?"

I've NEVER had a smart comeback to that question.
NOTHING in your workplace is worth your-or anyone's-life. Ever.


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## stantonsound (May 15, 2007)

Guys, most large companies, government entities, and school districts do not have insurance companies. They are self insured, as is the case with the local school system.

And to answer Rigger's comment, that is not a bad idea. The only problem is, as the LD I was only in the building for three days and then gone. I left before opening night and was not there for the run of the show (as is common). If I had "disabled it" (aka....broke it), there is no way of being sure that they would not make an unsafe repair and put the student in even more jeopardy. I do like the idea, however. I think that you (rigger) will understand that these things are not that easy to get fixed because most people just don't care. The school board, etc... don't have the knowledge and do not jump on things like that. They pay "experts" (aka. the teachers....scary, I know) to handle things like this and to make sure that things are safe. 

I can walk into just about any theatre today and find a safety violation. From load bearing safety cables to sets being held up with gaff tape to overloaded dimmer circuits to un-inspected fly systems to untrained techies, it is everywhere....professional, educational, church, etc... Even the best union operations that I have worked on (Las Vegas, Chicago, and NY), there are these problems. It is sad, but true.


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## Footer (May 15, 2007)

stantonsound said:


> Guys, most large companies, government entities, and school districts do not have insurance companies. They are self insured, as is the case with the local school system.



Then they have a life safety person, someone who is responsible for the well being the the ass protection of the district. Hell, call your nearest school board member, that'll get it stopped quick.


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## stantonsound (May 15, 2007)

Since we are a bit off topic, why don't we move this to the Stage Management forum and talk about unsafe practices in the theatre and what can be done about them. I think that this is a great discussion and would love to get everyone involved.

Any objections?


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