# Cost to install a camlock?



## TechGeek (Jun 14, 2013)

Hey everyone, I am currently doing some renovation work at theater in NJ and was thinking of having a cam-lok installed backstage for a dimmer system that I found. What is the average cost to have one of these camlock outlets installed? The theater used to be a bagel shop (its now a black box) and has plenty of space in the panel. Im waiting for a call back next week from the local electrician that does work for the hotels in the location (down the shore), just want to get a thought of how much I need to put aside in my budget.


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## techieman33 (Jun 14, 2013)

There is no way to even guess what it will cost. The big question is if you have enough power available to power the rack. If they have to pull wire it can get expensive fast. Another thing to consider is if the rack is going to ever move. If it's just going to stay there it would be cheaper to hard wire it, camlock parts themselves aren't cheap.


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## TechGeek (Jun 14, 2013)

The rack would be portable, we are buying another space that is WAY bigger then the space we have now so the rack would travel from across the street to the current location. I would imagine we have the power considering that they have 2 big 2 space breakers (not sure what amp) and then a crap load of 240v 20amps throughout. The place used to be a bagel cafe so.....


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## BillConnerFASTC (Jun 14, 2013)

Do you want a company switch? Quite a few manufacturers. I usually budget around $3500-4000 for a switch.


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## TechGeek (Jun 14, 2013)

BillConnerASTC said:


> Do you want a company switch? Quite a few manufacturers. I usually budget around $3500-4000 for a switch.



Holy crap! 4k for a company switch! Umm I'm currently lucky enough to buy a used 24 channel rack for 2k and install a cam for hopefully $400! Is there a cheaper way of a disconnect, I think I heard of a fused disconnect.


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## DavidNorth (Jun 14, 2013)

TechGeek said:


> Holy crap! 4k for a company switch! Umm I'm currently lucky enough to buy a used 24 channel rack for 2k and install a cam for hopefully $400! Is there a cheaper way of a disconnect, I think I heard of a fused disconnect.



The Googler says that a single panel mount camlock is $25. So that's at least $125 for just the connectors and then you need a box, a panel, hardware, a breaker, conduit, wire and qualified labor. A new 60A breaker could run $200 alone.

Time to make friends with an EC. You got a good deal on the rack!

David


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## TechGeek (Jun 14, 2013)

Ya, that's not too bad! I think just the breaker disconnect is ok. I have a buddy with IATSE so I'm gonna ask him too


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## derekleffew (Jun 14, 2013)

TechGeek said:


> ... Is there a cheaper way of a disconnect, I think I heard of a fused disconnect.


A company switch IS a fused disconnect, albeit with panel mount Cam-lok E1016 receptacle s and usually extra safety features.
A typical 400A 3Ø disconnect: SQUARE D Safety Switch, Fusible, 3PST, 400A, 600V - Safety and Disconnect Switches - 2JYE7|H365R - Grainger Industrial Supply for $4000.
Then one needs to add a box and at least five (preferably six--double neutral) Cam-lok receptacles: CL40FRB-A - Advanced Devices (Marinco) - RECEPTACLE, 2/0 - 4/0 AWG, FEMALE, PANEL MOUNT, DOUBLE SET SCREW, BLK plus covers CL40WTC-L-125-A - Advanced Devices (Marinco) - COVER, SNAP BACK, NEMA 3R, BLK . Add labor to mount the outlets and wire everything up. Solicit bids from several local licensed electricians.

Of course 400A may very well be overkill for the space/application. For a 24x2.4kW dimmer rack, one doesn't (necessarily) require a 160A service. 100A or 150A would probably suffice, with caveats.

It sounds perhaps your former bagel shoppe may not have 3Ø power ("...considering that they have 2 big 2 space breakers (not sure what amp) and then a crap load of 240v 20amps throughout..."), only single-phase / split-phase. If that's true, adjust numbers above accordingly.
.

.


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## TechGeek (Jun 14, 2013)

derekleffew said:


> A company switch IS a fused disconnect, albeit with panel mount Cam-lok E1016 receptacle s and usually extra safety features.
> A typical 400A 3Ø disconnect: SQUARE D Safety Switch, Fusible, 3PST, 400A, 600V - Safety and Disconnect Switches - 2JYE7|H365R - Grainger Industrial Supply for $4000.
> Then one needs to add a box and at least five (preferably six--double neutral) Cam-lok receptacles: CL40FRB-A - Advanced Devices (Marinco) - RECEPTACLE, 2/0 - 4/0 AWG, FEMALE, PANEL MOUNT, DOUBLE SET SCREW, BLK plus covers CL40WTC-L-125-A - Advanced Devices (Marinco) - COVER, SNAP BACK, NEMA 3R, BLK . Add labor to mount the outlets and wire everything up. Solicit bids from several local licensed electricians.
> 
> ...




The rack is 24ch and each channel is 1.2k so I'm thinking maybe if I can get my local electrician to remove the cam panel that the dimmers are wired to and replace it with a plug that's a couple amps may be an easier and cheaper option.


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## TechGeek (Jun 14, 2013)

So each channel is 10amps. So if I do 10amps times 24channels I get 240amps, correct? So if the electrician wires all 4 dimmers in the rack to 1 300amp plug and throw a 300amp breaker in the panel I will be fine?


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## TechGeek (Jun 14, 2013)

Or should I have each dimmer on a 60amp plug? I think each dimmer in the rack is 6 channels.


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## josh88 (Jun 14, 2013)

TechGeek said:


> So each channel is 10amps. So if I do 10amps times 24channels I get 240amps, correct? So if the electrician wires all 4 dimmers in the rack to 1 300amp plug and throw a 300amp breaker in the panel I will be fine?



I think there are some mixing of terms here. You're saying its 24 channels, but each dimmer is 6 channels? By that math you only have 4 dimmers, And each channel is 1.2kW, Somewhere things aren't adding up right.


Via tapatalk


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## zmb (Jun 14, 2013)

TechGeek said:


> So each channel is 10amps. So if I do 10amps times 24channels I get 240amps, correct? So if the electrician wires all 4 dimmers in the rack to 1 300amp plug and throw a 300amp breaker in the panel I will be fine?



Remember it is very rare to max out the rating of each dimmer and circuit protection only comes in certain amounts, the closest you'll get to is 200 amps.


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## Footer (Jun 14, 2013)

TechGeek said:


> Or should I have each dimmer on a 60amp plug? I think each dimmer in the rack is 6 channels.



Your in over your head. You need some help. Get someone in there that can help. We have plenty of members here from the shore, I'm sure any of them would be more than happy to help. You need a 100amp 3 phase company switch installed if you have 24 dimmer@1.2k. That is more power then any single plug can handle. You might be able to get the rack hard wired, but depending on how its built that may not be possible.


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## derekleffew (Jun 14, 2013)

TechGeek said:


> So each channel is 10amps. So if I do 10amps times 24channels I get 240amps, correct? So if the electrician wires all 4 dimmers in the rack to 1 300amp plug and throw a 300amp breaker in the panel I will be fine?


Yes and no.

Your assumptions are correct IF one assumes a single-phase 120V power feed, HNG. In North America, and even in New Jersey, this is the first of three methods of powering dimmers.
#2: Single-phase 120/240V, also known as split-phase or bi-phase. Two hots, neutral, and ground. HHNG. Each hot leg draws one-half the total power.
#3: Three-phase 120/208V, Wye connection. Three hots, neutral, and ground. HHHNG. Each hot leg draws one-third the total power.
Many/most dimmer pack s (not racks) allow connection in any of the above three ways. The larger the pack/ dimmer rack, the less feasable the first two options become.

Now the first issue with your scheme is that there is no single-phase, HNG plug capable of 300A. Even if there were, you couldn't afford it--here's a typical 100A 3Ø plug: Hubbell HBL5100P9W; the mating female costs more! The second issue is that it sounds like you have one rack of four 6x1.2kW dimmers. So there's power distribution going on inside the rack to each pack. Hopefully it was built and listed to UL standard, but probably wasn't. Post pictures. The last issue that must be at least mentioned is the NEC code requirements that single-pole separable connectors are for use only by a Qualified Person, per the NEC.

Provided the dimmer rack is listed, by NRTL for permanent installation (though I suspect it isn't), a safer, better plan is to have an electrician tie it in permanently to its OCPD and forgo the disconnect and connectors.
.


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## TechGeek (Jun 14, 2013)

Let me clear things up.

The rack is 24channels and it contains 4 leviton DD8800 dimmers which have 6channels at 1.2k each. The rack already has a camlock panel on it that the dimmers are wired to.

We are looking to purchase a MUCH larger venue across the street, so the rack will not get hardwired it needs to be portable so that I can wheel it across the street for when we do stuff in the larger venue then wheel it back across the street for the smaller black box. 

Im thinking that instead of doing a camlock, I can have the local electrician wire a 60 amp plug onto each dimmer pack and then install 4 60 amp outlets to plug the dimmers into. And then I will have 60 amp outlets installed into the new venue once we get it.


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## derekleffew (Jun 14, 2013)

TechGeek said:


> ... Im thinking that instead of doing a camlock, I can have the local electrician wire a 60 amp plug onto each dimmer pack and then install 4 60 amp outlets to plug the dimmers into. And then I will have 60 amp outlets installed into the new venue once we get it.


That would likely be safe, probably to code, but certainly not cost effective. Both in materials and labor. 

We still don't know what power you're dealing with: 120V, 120/240V, or 120V/208V. Whatever it is will determine the connectors. If 120V, you'd need one 60A plug and receptacle for each pack. Example: CS6361 (50A)
If 120/240V, you'd need one 30A plug and receptacle for each pack. Example: NEMA L14-30. (See below.)
If 120/208V, you'd need one 20A plug and receptacle for each pack. Example: NEMA L21-20.

EDIT: It looks like the Levition DD8800 is an *8x1.2kW dimmer pack* and can ONLY accept bi-phase power:

> 8800 : 120/240 VAC 40 amp 2 pole 3 wire plus ground only (use minimum [HASHTAG]#6[/HASHTAG] AWG).


I don't know of a 40A split-phase easily-available connector. You could apply derating to 30A and use the L14-30 (since you're also not likely to find a 40A breaker) or spend much more for the 50A CS6365 "California Plug".


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## TechGeek (Jun 14, 2013)

You are right, my bad. The Packs are 8 channels, I believe I'm using 120v power.


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## TechGeek (Jun 14, 2013)

As I look at the product specs, it says this.... "8800 : 120/240 V ac, 1 phase, 3 wire 40 A"


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## TechGeek (Jun 14, 2013)

Or is this a better option?

This dimmer pack is $300 and 10amps per channel (6 channels)(1.2k per channel). The system runs off of 120v, however it doesn't say how many amps it needs.

Link to manufacturers product page:
Behringer: EUROLIGHT LD6230


Link to product manual:
http://www.behringer.com/assets/LD6230_P0140_M_EN.pdf


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## derekleffew (Jun 14, 2013)

"Friends don't let friends buy Behringer." 
"I wouldn't trust that as far as I could throw it." 


> 3-phase mains supply (one phase possible at lower output power)



Notice anything missing, like output receptacles? How much would it cost to buy and wire an output panel? 
Another thing missing: listed, by NRTL. Might not be an issue to you, but *will* be to your AHJ and insurance carrier. 

.


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## TechGeek (Jun 14, 2013)

my old summer camp had full racks of these and they lasted a pretty long time, we did have them installed in correctly power wise but they still worked fine. I was gonna slap socapex on the back of them and call it a day. By the looks of it, I can use a regular 4 wire 30 amp plug (appliance plug) that I can get at my hardware store?


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## TechGeek (Jun 14, 2013)

Should I just do a crap load of these LED pars American DJ Mega TRIPAR Profile Compact LED Light | GuitarCenter (my original plan)?


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## MPowers (Jun 14, 2013)

TechGeek said:


> You are right, my bad. The Packs are 8 channels, I believe I'm using 120v power.



The packs are 8 DIMMERS, NOT 8 Channels. Channels exist in a control panel, dimmers exist in a rack or a pack (or in some cases built into a light). For example a single incandescent lamp, ERS for example uses one Dimmer and one channel to control that dimmer. An LED fixture uses many channels to control the color and intensity, but uses zero dimmers. 

Please, one of you lighting guys who knows how to explain this better jump in here. I stopped dealing with lighting when we phased out salt water dimmers.


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## TechGeek (Jun 14, 2013)

MPowers said:


> The packs are 8 DIMMERS, NOT 8 Channels. Channels exist in a control panel, dimmers exist in a rack or a pack (or in some cases built into a light). For example a single incandescent lamp, ERS for example uses one Dimmer and one channel to control that dimmer. An LED fixture uses many channels to control the color and intensity, but uses zero dimmers.
> 
> Please, one of you lighting guys who knows how to explain this better jump in here. I stopped dealing with lighting when we phased out salt water dimmers.



I know, when I said "8channels" I was refering to a dimmer pack with 8channels, which obviously means that there are 8 dimmers in the pack since dimmer packs are 1 channel per dimmer.


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## DavidNorth (Jun 14, 2013)

Let's look at a number of decisions and costs here.

If you have camlocks and want to put cams on the wall, not only do you have cams, conduit and electrician costs there, but you also need camlock cables to go from the pack/rack to the wall. If you also are going to install socapex connectors on the packs, that is going to add up to a lot of work and money, especially since I am not aware of anyone that supplies precrimped socapex female with lead wires. Crimping socapex pins takes a special tool and soldering them is certainly fun based on the size of the pin and the wire. Have you done any of this work before?

Changing over the packs from camlocks to 4-pin 30A dryer connectors is an option, but you have to make sure that each bank of 4 dimmers [2 banks in each pack] only uses 30A or less. If the lights are on for more than 3 hours, then you might even need to get that down to 24A, but don't forget that this is current when dimmers are at full, which your lights may not be. Now you would be looking at rewiring the pack inputs, rewiring the pack outputs and putting 4 connectors on the wall with conduit and boxes.

You can rewire the feeds to 50A connectors, as Derek suggested, which you to fully load the packs as needed, but this is indeed much more expensive than the 30A connectors. This may be cost competitive with the cam option.

I would suggest that work with someone that has done this work before and help you make decisions based on your specific use and budget. It make more sense to use a different product.

I don't believe I have actually helpd much here but instead am hoping that you will get another set of eyes on your situation.

David


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## BillConnerFASTC (Jun 14, 2013)

What a confused mess. And just when you thought it was safe to go backstage.....

4 cords with plugs and 4 receptacles - 40 amps - I'd have to look up right plug config but the parts are probably $100-200. A qualified electrician for a day - or journeyman and apprentice for half probably - $500? You might cut a better deal.


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## BGW (Jun 15, 2013)

Can NEMA 14-50 plugs not be used in theatrical applications? I'm about to hit the sack but I'll look it up in the morning.


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## themuzicman (Jun 15, 2013)

BGW said:


> Can NEMA 14-50 plugs not be used in theatrical applications? I'm about to hit the sack but I'll look it up in the morning.



If the wirings right, and everything is up to code, I see no reasons why it can't be used in theatre. It's one of many suitable plugs for certain applications, regardless of it being in a theatrical environment. 


TechGeek said:


> I have a buddy with IATSE so I'm gonna ask him too



That doesn't mean too much. I'm an IATSE stagehand, and I would stare blankly at you if you asked me to do this. I consider myself fairly knowledgable but I'm no electrical contractor. Stick with the guys licensed to do this sort of work, not the guys paid to push boxes around a stage.

I'd consider bringing in outside help around now...watching this thread devolve into a confusing mess and don't want anyone to get hurt. You're in high school, just accept that there are certain things you shouldn't be doing, and learn from the pro's when they come in to help you.


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## techieman33 (Jun 15, 2013)

BGW said:


> Can NEMA 14-50 plugs not be used in theatrical applications? I'm about to hit the sack but I'll look it up in the morning.



I use them occasionally. A local ballet company did a spring ballet in a local high school when the PAC wasn't available. They have a pair of circuits with that plug that we ended up plugging a pair of portable CD80 packs into. Obviously we couldn't have all 24 2.4k dimmers on at the same time, but with careful circuiting we were able to make pretty good use of them. I also see them in banquet/meeting rooms occasionally. We have a couple of boxes to split them into 2 20 amp circuits (with their own breakers of course).


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## TechGeek (Jun 15, 2013)

I think it might be cheaper to just go LED then. This is WAY too much work then what I currently want to get into, I have to order stuff for shows that open soon so maybe I'll consider this in the future but for now I think the LEDs are easier since I can just get 20amp outlets put in right next to one and power link them. 


Why must electricity be so complex-ish? I know and understand the basics but dont get the whole 3phase, bi-phase stuff.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Jun 15, 2013)

Bi-phase? Oh my. Electricity?


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## josh88 (Jun 15, 2013)

The complexity is why you need a professional and also why their time costs so much money too. Buying a bunch of LED's that actually look good is going to cost even more. Those ADJ lights you linked aren't going to be great. They are 3 watt LED's I've got some 30 watt LED's that aren't even that bright in my small blackbox space. And I've got a couple of these 

they weren't worth the money at all, but I took a chance that they might be passable when I had some extra cash. You won't be happy with the colors and how focused most of this range of LEDs are at this price. Just a warning


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## themuzicman (Jun 15, 2013)

I don't understand how you go from inquiring about installing a cam panel to thinking about purchasing LED's. As I said before, you're in high school...bring in someone who knows what they are doing and has done things like this before, allowing you to watch their process, learn from it, and let the job get done right the first time.


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## venuetech (Jun 15, 2013)

TechGeek said:


> Why must electricity be so complex-ish? I know and understand the basics but dont get the whole 3phase, bi-phase stuff.



You may "understand the basics" but for the task at hand you need a deeper understanding. At this point the best way is to work directly with someone who has that knowledge. It is not something that can easily be done on line at a forum such as this.


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## derekleffew (Jun 15, 2013)

TechGeek said:


> ... Why must electricity be so complex-ish?


Short answer--because copper wiring is expensive -ish.


TechGeek said:


> ...I know and understand the basics but dont get the whole 3phase, bi-phase stuff.



Use the CB wiki, and spend some time with the search feature.
Post your questions here (although we'll likely point you to a previous discussion). 
Ask your licensed electrician to explain the parts you don't understand. 
Buy/borrow, read and comprehend, the book Electricity for the Entertainment Electrician & Technician: Richard Cadena: 9780240809953: Amazon.com: Books .

.


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## LavaASU (Jun 15, 2013)

This might be a good short term solution: 4X Pro Quality Par Can 36 x 3W LEDs DJ Stage Light RGB | eBay . Those are the equivalent of a 300-500W parcan in intensity. Rick Massey is a good guy-- owns a production company and sells these for a low profit margin. The *are* chinese LEDs, not the greatest, but we own 8 of them and all the problems we've had are due to physical damage from them being used in a concert/rental environment. I suspect they'd be fine if but in a venue and left there (or gently carried across the street). I would not suggest throwing them in trucks, SUVs, cars, ect (without road cases) on a daily or weekly basis unless you have a staff that can do repairs.


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## avkid (Jun 16, 2013)

Just caught this.
We are at the NJ shore.
Would be glad to offer any assistance and recommend an electrical contractor.


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## STEVETERRY (Jun 17, 2013)

BillConnerASTC said:


> What a confused mess. And just when you thought it was safe to go backstage.....
> 
> 4 cords with plugs and 4 receptacles - 40 amps - I'd have to look up right plug config but the parts are probably $100-200. A qualified electrician for a day - or journeyman and apprentice for half probably - $500? You might cut a better deal.



First, let's have a look at what the NEC says about portable feeders in section 520.53(P):

_(P) Qualified Personnel. The routing of portable supply conductors, the making and breaking of supply connectors and other supply connections, and the energization and de-energization of supply services shall be performed by qualified personnel, and portable switchboards shall be so marked, indicating this requirement in a permanent and conspicuous manner. 

Exception: A portable switchboard shall be permitted to be connected to a permanently installed supply receptacle by other than qualified personnel, provided that the supply receptacle is protected for its current rating by an overcurrent device of not greater than 150 amperes, and where the receptacle, interconnection, and switchboard comply with all of the following:

(a) Employ listed multipole connectors suitable for the purpose for every supply interconnection 

(b) Prevent access to all supply connections by the general public 

(c) Employ listed extra-hard usage multiconductor cords or cables with an ampacity not less than the load and not less than the ampere rating of the connectors. 
_

From this thread, I think this installation fails the qualified personnel requirement.

Next, let's review where we need to use single conductor feeders: in cases where the load is over about 100 amps per feeder conductor, making multi-conductor cable and multi-pole connectors impractical. Also, single conductor cables may not be used in sizes smaller than #2AWG. It would appear that the loads in this installation are broken up into small enough pieces that a small breaker panel with multi-pole outlet is the more reasonable solution, and would be covered by the Exception above.

ST


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## BillConnerFASTC (Jun 17, 2013)

BGW said:


> Can NEMA 14-50 plugs not be used in theatrical applications? I'm about to hit the sack but I'll look it up in the morning.



I'd concur. Some panels on the existing cabinet might have to be blanked but 4 pigtails with NEMA 14-50p plugs and 4 NEMA 14-50R Receptacles- basically an electric range set up - would seem to run in the $15-20 range each component - so under $150 for all of the parts - plus pipe and wire and qualified install. I "think" Steve Terry would concur. I agree emphasizing the necessity to find qualified personnel to do the installation and modifications. Probably not one or two useable LED units - and they require jumpers and other wiring.


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## JD (Jun 17, 2013)

BillConnerASTC said:


> I'd concur. Some panels on the existing cabinet might have to be blanked but 4 pigtails with NEMA 14-15p plugs and 4 NEMA 14-50R Rece3ptacle s- basically an electric range set up - would seem to run in the $15-20 range each component - so under $150 for all of the parts - plus pipe and wire and qualified install. I "think" Steve Terry would concur. I agree emphasizing the necessity to find qualified personnel to do the installation and modifications. Probably not one or two useable LED units - and they require jumpers and other wiring.



The 30 amp "Dryer" plug/receptacle is about the same price as the 50 amp "Range" plug/receptacle. In fact, often it is sold as the same plug packaged with both blades. Beware of one thing- The "Range" plug/cable set, such as you would buy at Home Depot, is not suitable. This is due to the fact that the cable is a light duty plastic AND although the two hots are gauged at 6, the ground and neutral are gauged at 8. I am not sure why it is listed as UL approved, but I suspect it may come under the "whip cable" exemption. In either case, use the plug assembly with 6/4 SO cable. 

As for the connectors not being permitted for stage usage, I am not aware of that and have seen plenty in use. (There may be local rules that prevent their use.) Pin and sleeve connectors are preferable as they are locking, whereas the range plugs are not. Unfortunately, pin and sleeve connectors are also $$$$! 

One annoyance of the standard "Range" plugs are that they exit at a 90, so they are problematic in some cases. However, in this case, it is probably an advantage.

One last thing about cams- (This may have been covered before.) They are considered a "tool-less lug" so the same rules apply to plugging in a cam as do to a direct tap. (See- http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/lighting-electrics/18977-cam-turn-arounds.html#post173586)
This is why multi-pin connectors are the way to go.


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## derekleffew (Jun 17, 2013)

BGW said:


> Can NEMA 14-50 plugs not be used in theatrical applications? ...


I don't think there's anything in the NEC forbidding it; however, the use of the range plug /stove plug / dryer plug has only two advantages (cost and ease of availability) and many more disadvantages. These include:

Only available in a 90° version as JD stated. 
If the cable needs to be extended, No cable mount/inline, female, line connector version. A box containing a panel mount receptacle on the end of a jumper is unwieldy at best. 
Not really intended for repeated connection/disconnection. How often are ranges/dryers unplugged/replugged? 
Often flimsy construction and the strain-relief may not accept 6/4 or 4/4 type SO (and derivatives) cord. 


I'd spend the extra money for the Hubbell CS-style, "California Plug". To each his own, as long as it's safe.
.


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## JD (Jun 17, 2013)

The name varies somewhat from region to region, but what Derek is referring to is this:
Reliance Generator Cord Plug — 50 Amp, 120/240 Volt | Generator Cordsets Plugs| Northern Tool + Equipment

They take a lot of abuse. 



They even have cable sets
http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200596099_200596099


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## derekleffew (Jun 17, 2013)

JD said:


> ...They even have cable sets
> CEP All-Weather Power Cord — 50-Ft., 50 Amps, 240 Volts, Model# 6450M | Generator Cordsets Plugs| Northern Tool + Equipment


The cable pictured is ... interesting.

See QotD- http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/question-day/32500-cord-question.html . 
.


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## BGW (Jun 17, 2013)

I wholeheartedly agree with you- I like other connectors much more. I just thought of the 14-50 first for the two reasons you list. It's not the most elegant solution, but it sounds as though it's a mixed bag of components to begin with.


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