# Manager Falls Into Orchestra Pit



## DaveySimps (Apr 19, 2012)

Here is an article on an associate of mine who was severely injured this week. It is sad that, repeatedly, school administrations fail to see the value of orchestra pit safety nets. 

~Dave


BC auditorium manager recovering after accident - Midland Daily News: News


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## gafftapegreenia (Apr 19, 2012)

Hence more and more places are requiring railings on the edge of the stage any time a show is not performing.


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## kcraigie (Apr 19, 2012)

Dave, oh no! I do hope that the PTB will make some safety updates, and his accident won't be for nothing. We'll keep Jason in our good thoughts for a quick and full recovery.


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## Pie4Weebl (Apr 19, 2012)

or instead of more government regulation people could... idk _look_ where they are walking? 

Sorry your buddy hurt himself, but being observant of your work environment is the most important safety net you can have...


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## DaveySimps (Apr 19, 2012)

I agree. I am not certain of the details of exactly how it happened, so I cannot comment. He is a very safety conscious and aware individual, so I am sure it was not as simple as not paying attention to where he was stepping. 

~Dave


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## AtlanticSmith (Apr 20, 2012)

DaveySimps said:


> I agree. I am not certain of the details of exactly how it happened, so I cannot comment. He is a very safety conscious and aware individual, so I am sure it was not as simple as not paying attention to where he was stepping.
> 
> ~Dave



My college roommate lost a friend in High School because of an open pit. The state of Texas now has laws making orchestra pit nets mandatory. I think that as cautious as we all are, sometimes we get distracted because we are all fallible.


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## DaveySimps (Apr 20, 2012)

I think the biggest issues with orchestra pits specifically is that, for a good portion of the year, they are closed and are a walkable surface in a great many performance venues. Staff and students get accustomed to the area and space around it. When a pit is later opened, they have to mentally adjust to new boundaries. When you are very focused with everything that is going on, I can certainly see where an error can be made, even when it seems quite obvious that there is a big hole.

~Dave


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## BillESC (Apr 20, 2012)

The first time I walked onto the Radio City Music Hall stage, the Department Head for Electrics pulled me to the side and said, "Never take a backward step on my stage."

With four elevators 60' wide by 20' deep that are absolutely silent when they move I took his message to heart. During the nearly 20 years I was honored to be a visiting LD, I read of numerous deaths/injuries because of falls. During the later years I worked there, when an elevator was going to move, strobe lights blinked, sirens sounded and fences were flown in. PITA, yes (added to the load in/out time,) but there has not been a death since the procedure has been in place to my knowledge.


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## STEVETERRY (Apr 21, 2012)

DaveySimps said:


> Here is an article on an associate of mine who was severely injured this week. It is sad that, repeatedly, school administrations fail to see the value of orchestra pit safety nets.
> 
> ~Dave
> 
> ...



At the March PLASA Technical Standards Council meeting, the following standards project was initiated:

"Recommended Practice for the Avoidance of Falls into or off of Orchestra Pits, Stage Platforms, Stage Openings and Edges"

ST


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## porkchop (Apr 21, 2012)

> and remains concerned about the musical this weekend despite his injuries



Now that's commitment to the show


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## Mom (Apr 21, 2012)

Monday, April 16, 2012 my daughter fell backward into the orchestra pit at her high school, fracturing her skull. Nets should be required in, at least, amateur venues. Her legs hit a girl who was in the pit too. The poor girl thought my daughter was dead! Someone help us please. She seems to be improving.


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## derekleffew (Apr 21, 2012)

STEVETERRY said:


> ... "Recommended Practice for the *Avoidance* of Falls into or off of Orchestra Pits, Stage Platforms, Stage Openings and Edges"


Fall *prevention* rather than fall *protection*?

Compare/contrast Safety and Health Topics | Fall Protection with

MPowers said:


> ...
> There is an International Building Code exception to railings.See exception 5.
> 
> "1013.1 Where required. Guards shall be located along
> ...


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Mom said:


> ... Nets should be required in, at least, amateur venues. ...


Seems like easy and affordable insurance. See also the thread http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/stage-management-facility-operations/9317-stage-edge-safety.html . I wish a full and speedy recovery for your daughter, as well as for the manager who was the original inspiration for this thread.


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## Mom (Apr 21, 2012)

Pie4Weebl said:


> or instead of more government regulation people could... idk _look_ where they are walking?
> 
> Sorry your buddy hurt himself, but being observant of your work environment is the most important safety net you can have...



Our High School, in Maryland, is getting ready to put on a performance with over 50 students, MANY of whom have never worked on a stage before. When I learned a back handspring on a balance beam, I FIRST learned how to do it on a line, on a floor mat, thousands of times before I was allowed to try it WITH A SPOTTER on the beam. First you practice with safety in place. As far as the man looking where he was going, accidents happen, people are human, so why not have a net over the pit or mats in the pit if you are working on it. If you don't care about people, then care about costs, damage to equipment, finding replacement people. Something should motivate you to respond more reasonably.


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## gafftapegreenia (Apr 21, 2012)

Pie4Weebl said:


> or instead of more government regulation people could... idk _look_ where they are walking?
> 
> Sorry your buddy hurt himself, but being observant of your work environment is the most important safety net you can have...



Yes, and those people in Indiana that had the stage fall on them should have moved out of the way.



Sorry but I don't agree.


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## josh88 (Apr 21, 2012)

gafftapegreenia said:


> Yes, and those people in Indiana that had the stage fall on them should have moved out of the way.



Of course that wasn't on them, but to some extent its like what BillESC said, never walking backwards on a stage and being aware of your surroundings is important. Safety nets would be a great thing, but more often then not they won't be considered a need until something happens, at which point it's to late. Accepting that the world and theatres are dangerous and just paying attention to what's going on around you is one of the more important ways of staying safe.


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## Footer (Apr 21, 2012)

For the places that have safety nets, how do they work? What are they anchored to? In the event of a fall, does it actually have enough "spring" to keep you from hitting the floor? How many feet do you need from the top of the net to the top of whatever is in the pit for it to be effective?


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## zmb (Apr 21, 2012)

Footer said:


> For the places that have safety nets, how do they work? What are they anchored to? In the event of a fall, does it actually have enough "spring" to keep you from hitting the floor? How many feet do you need from the top of the net to the top of whatever is in the pit for it to be effective?



There's a net at my school district's PAC that got retrofitted in. I'm not sure how it attaches to the upstage edge, but the down stage edge has some pieces that fit on top what I guess would be the downstage wall of the pit when it is down and the net is attached with carabiners. I don't know how far one will sink when being caught but when it is extending it can be easily pushed down with one hand.


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## ruinexplorer (Apr 21, 2012)

As with any other safety device, a net needs to be inspected on a regular basis. The facility will need to ensure that there is a competent person in charge of making sure that it is being used properly. The facility will still need to have a rescue plan in place for when someone does end up falling into the net. Everyone who will be working around the open area will need to be trained about the dangers still present (clearance between the net and anything under it, injuries which could be sustained when falling in the net, etc). 

Theater is a dangerous workplace. Those dangers are often ignored. Many people become complacent with those dangers as well. Whenever you have an opening in the floor or a change in elevation (such as the pit), then you need to have strict guidelines in how you will operate. Often, when you are operating during work calls, if you have an opening, and do not have a protective barrier, you need to establish a zone of no entry (roughly 6' from the edge, farther if you are then on a ladder or otherwise elevated). Then, during rehearsals, you establish a safety zone that the performers and technicians can identify under stage lighting. The best measure of safety is keeping yourself out of harms way.

I hope that all who have been injured from these accidents fully recover, without permanent damage.


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## DaveySimps (Apr 21, 2012)

Footer said:


> For the places that have safety nets, how do they work? What are they anchored to? In the event of a fall, does it actually have enough "spring" to keep you from hitting the floor? How many feet do you need from the top of the net to the top of whatever is in the pit for it to be effective?



The companies that I see have various means of anchoring them. Most really champion the fact that they are designed to the facility, not simply an item off of a shelf. I know of several that epoxy the anchor bolts into cement, or through bolt. Most are anchored to the downstage pit wall and the end of the face of the stage or overhang wall. Not certain on what you are asking in your last question. Below is a link to a company's page that has some good info on the anchoring and other details.

Orchestra Pit Safety Netting and Fall Protection

~Dave


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## blackisthenewblack (Apr 22, 2012)

The big roadhouse by my place has steel beams installed level with the front of the stage across the top of the pit. There is then an engineered net stretched across it. That way there is never more than an 8' span of netting. I would think that it would suck to land on the steel, but a 6" fall is better than landing on a double bass or drum kit.


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## Les (Apr 23, 2012)

blackisthenewblack said:


> ...better than landing on a ... drum kit.



I've done that. Except I was 8, and it was from my bunk bed :/. It hurts.


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## len (Apr 23, 2012)

gafftapegreenia said:


> Hence more and more places are requiring railings on the edge of the stage any time a show is not performing.



Why don't they just do what you see so often on flat roofs, a ring of safety tape and cones 6' from the edge. Certainly less costly than a steel railing.


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## Pie4Weebl (Apr 23, 2012)

gafftapegreenia said:


> Yes, and those people in Indiana that had the stage fall on them should have moved out of the way.
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry but I don't agree.





They bought their plane tickets, they knew what they were getting into, I say let'm crash!


I think the only way you could distort my point anymore is if you said I thought "they jews should have known better than to be jewish in germany in the late 30's"

I bet YOU also think if someone hurts them selves while robbing your place they should be able to sue you right?

//that logic works both ways.

I agree with len, a safety rope should be enough...


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## gafftapegreenia (Apr 23, 2012)

No no, that's not my point. 

I certainly would agree and advocate that one needs to try their utmost to be aware and conscious of their surroundings at all times. It is one of the fundamental rules of working on the stage environment and I would NEVER disagree with that. 

HOWEVER I think that it would be good if there was more effort made to increase the awareness of such risks. Even a safety rope or a line of cones helps immensely. That visual indication can sometimes be all thats needed to prevent injury or loss of life. 

AWARENESS is key BUT accidents happen and I don't think it would be a bad idea to make some practices more common. We wear harnesses when necessary, and hard hats are becoming more common in our work as well. Safety restraints, such as nets, don't prevent falls, but they sure can make them a lot less worse. Take for instance the SawStop. Yes, awareness and proper technique is key when using any power tool, but how many of us have argued the justification of a SawStop in that it can turn a lost digit into a single stitch or less? At what price point does the personal responsibility vs. risk reduction scale tip? 



And for the record, I think it's bull ish that a robber has been injured on a break in, sued the home owner, and won.


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## gafftapegreenia (Apr 23, 2012)

len said:


> Why don't they just do what you see so often on flat roofs, a ring of safety tape and cones 6' from the edge. Certainly less costly than a steel railing.



Not a bad idea at all.


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## tbean146 (Apr 28, 2012)

len said:


> Why don't they just do what you see so often on flat roofs, a ring of safety tape and cones 6' from the edge. Certainly less costly than a steel railing.



This is what my high school does during our fall musical, however we only have this in place when the audience is not in. When one of the hands comes in in the evening they strike it to a storage room close to the stage. Then, after the show, the first thing that is done (usually before all the musicians are out of the pit) the crew all go to get the cones and tape and put them up. The only difference is ours is usually 2-3 feet from the edge instead of 6.


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## gafftaper (Apr 28, 2012)

Footer said:


> For the places that have safety nets, how do they work? What are they anchored to? In the event of a fall, does it actually have enough "spring" to keep you from hitting the floor? How many feet do you need from the top of the net to the top of whatever is in the pit for it to be effective?



I know of three theaters with them. All are installed just below the lip of the stage in theaters with removable pit covers. Also all three are on pretty deep pits, close to 8' deep. There is only about an 8"-12" drop from the stage level to the net. As far as spring, the ones I've seen are made from something like a 3/4"-1" diameter cargo net, with about 6" squares. They are not stretched all that tight as they are designed to be easily snapped in and out of position when re-configuring the pit. The sturdy ropes I've seen are not going to give much, I think you would still bounce a bit if you fell in one due to the slack in the net. Thus I don't think you need a lot of clearance below the net. Yeah you would probably still get hurt, but not nearly as bad. They also aren't all that expensive. I helped a school get a net a couple years ago. I think they paid around $4,000 including the labor for installation of a eye bolts into concrete.


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## ruinexplorer (Apr 28, 2012)

Out of curiosity, do you know how those three spaces maintain those nets? Do they have the installer return on a regular basis to inspect the connections? After all, other life safety systems are regularly inspected (if you aren't doing so, you need to do so; I currently have my harness back at the manufacturer for re-certification). 

As I said previously, complacensy is often the biggest danger. People end up losing respect for the dangers of their workplace. They start depending on that safety measure to keep them from harm and ignore the primary safety measure of having secure footing (proper distance from the fall hazard).


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## DaveySimps (Apr 28, 2012)

gafftaper said:


> They also aren't all that expensive. I helped a school get a net a couple years ago. I think they paid around $4,000 including the labor for installation of a eye bolts into concrete.




If you have some vendors you can recommend at this price, I'd be very interested. Several of us in my area have solicited quotes. We have had several quotes from various vendors around the US. They have been consistently between $10,000 and $14,000 installed. Significantly different than the pricing you mention. None of our installs would be atypical or unique causing additional material or labor.

~Dave


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## gafftaper (Apr 29, 2012)

I'll double check. It's been a while it may be my mind has slipped on pricing.

As for inspections I don't think any of those theaters ever have their nets inspected. All are in schools which feel lucky to have a net in the first place. Note: I'm not saying that I don't agree that inspections should happen regularly, they just don't.


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## DaveySimps (Apr 29, 2012)

gafftaper said:


> I'll double check. It's been a while it may be my mind has slipped on pricing.



I'd appreciate that. Thanks!

~Dave


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## museav (Apr 30, 2012)

I learned the hard way, I was distracted by a noise, turned to look back at where it was coming from without stopping and in doing so walked backwards off the stage lip. Luckily it was just a 2' or 3' drop to the concrete at an amphitheater rather than into an open pit and I was fine, but it is easy to be distracted at inopportune moments. Cones and tape probably would not have helped in that situation unless they gave sufficient resistance while still allowing time to stop.


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## howlingwolf487 (May 2, 2012)

In the theatre environment, it's common to call out when things are changing or mistakes happen.

"Falling!" = Run away from the immediate area as fast as possible.
"Clear the rail!" = Move from underneath the flyrail because an arbor is being loaded/unloaded.
"Batten coming in/going out!" = Watch you head(s), something big/heavy is moving.

When operating our lift, we always yelled, "Lift moving!" and waited for a couple of "thank you"s, etc. from those on deck before actually moving. Heck, we had to be state-certified to even operate the thing since it was considered an open elevator shaft. Supervision is a must and it should be explicitly stated, in no uncertain terms, that horseplay will NOT be tolerated on stage.

From the article linked to by the OP, it seems that the TD was working on the stage floor and made a movement that got him off-balance enough to cause him to tumble in the direction of and into the pit. I, personally, feel that if I were working that close to the stage lip and the pit was down, I would bring it up - no matter what was already on it. I do concur that if there were some life-safety measure in place, the injuries sustained may have been much less severe.


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## DaveySimps (May 3, 2012)

howlingwolf487;252859 I said:


> stage[/autolink] lip and the pit was down, I would bring it up - no matter what was already on it.



This is not always an option. Many theatres only have an orchestra pit filler, not an elevator / lift like you. Mine takes 3 hours to put back in section by section. This is also the case about the theatre mentioned in the article.

~Dave


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## howlingwolf487 (May 6, 2012)

DaveySimps said:


> This is not always an option. Many theatres only have an orchestra pit filler, not an elevator / lift like you. Mine takes 3 hours to put back in section by section. This is also the case about the theatre mentioned in the article.
> 
> ~Dave


Ah, I see. If that's the case, then I guess maybe a change in working position could have helped…but who knows, really? There is always a chance that something, somewhere can go wrong, and oftentimes it doesn't, or we anticipate and adapt to deal with it.

All the best to those who have been injured in such incidents - I hope that the number continues to grow less and less each year.


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## gafftaper (May 7, 2012)

DaveySimps said:


> If you have some vendors you can recommend at this price, I'd be very interested. Several of us in my area have solicited quotes. We have had several quotes from various vendors around the US. They have been consistently between $10,000 and $14,000 installed. Significantly different than the pricing you mention. None of our installs would be atypical or unique causing additional material or labor.
> 
> ~Dave



I guess the final cost was a little over $7,000. Which I believe included both a horizontal net as well as a smaller one down in the bit vertically to keep musicians from falling off... it's deep pit. 

It was done by PNTA here in Seattle. I'm PM'ing you the contact info for the guy to talk to about it.


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## DaveySimps (May 7, 2012)

Got the PM. Thanks Mark! I appreciate the new lead.

~Dave


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