# Fire Curtains. What dictates whether one should be in a space?



## Chris Chapman (Feb 21, 2013)

A new facility (550+ seating), with a fly space doesn't have a fire curtain. What's up with that? They don't have a deluge system either. There doesn't seem to be an alternative. Is there some limit on facility size and when a fire curtain is demanded. A smaller venue in our town (220 seats) is a dead hung space, and it also doesn't have a fire curtain. Anyone know anything about this? I know some of it has to probably come down to local ordinances, but still...


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## sk8rsdad (Feb 21, 2013)

I can't speak for Michigan (nor would I presume to be an authority on the issue) but in Ontario the building code says you need a fire curtain if you have a stage. However, if you have a _performance platform_ no fire curtain is required. The subtle distinction is whether the seating area and stage are considered a single room or two rooms that should be separated by a fire resistant barrier. A fly tower would typically trigger the need for a fire curtain because the variance in ceiling height would make the stage a chimney in the event of a fire. If the entire space has a common ceiling then the local building inspector might have treated it as a single room.


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## JChenault (Feb 21, 2013)

Your right it is a question of local codes. 

I know that in my area if the height of the stage house is over 50 feet, it needs a fire curtain. Otherwise you don't.

This is why ( for example) most of the high schools have about 49 feet clear over the stage deck.


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## gafftaper (Feb 22, 2013)

I know of a 700 seat theater in the area here that was recently remodeled. They didn't install a fire curtain. When I asked why, I was told that it had to do with the relative differences in height on both sides of the proscenium. Because the height of the fly space and the height of the ceiling in the house are within a few feet of each other, the fire code considers it one room. 

This is definitely a topic that is going to vary wildly depending on your fire marshal and city building codes.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Feb 22, 2013)

The International Building Code and the Life Safety Code - which are widely adopted in the US - both use the stage height and over 50' protection is required - a fire safety curtain OR a deluge system OR an engineered smoke control system. Planning 6 or so theatres in the US a year for a while I have not found other then these requirements. It based on higher stages encourage having more combustibles on and over the stage in combination with the proven effectiveness of fire sprinklers at up to 50'.


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## TrentonShawn (Jun 11, 2014)

sk8rsdad said:


> I can't speak for Michigan (nor would I presume to be an authority on the issue) but in Ontario the building code says you need a fire curtain if you have a stage. However, if you have a _performance platform_ no fire curtain is required. The subtle distinction is whether the seating area and stage are considered a single room or two rooms that should be separated by a fire resistant barrier. A fly tower would typically trigger the need for a fire curtain because the variance in ceiling height would make the stage a chimney in the event of a fire. If the entire space has a common ceiling then the local building inspector might have treated it as a single room.



Hi I'm having problems with a fire curtain, a supplier is saying we don't need one but the building inspector says we do... we have a very small stage area, led lights, and only 11 ft high ceilings, not sure what a fly tower is though? could you give me some advice to take to our group?


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## SteveB (Jun 11, 2014)

BillConnerASTC said:


> The International Building Code and the Life Safety Code - which are widely adopted in the US - both use the stage height and over 50' protection is required - a fire safety curtain OR a deluge system OR an engineered smoke control system. Planning 6 or so theatres in the US a year for a while I have not found other then these requirements. It based on higher stages encourage having more combustibles on and over the stage in combination with the proven effectiveness of fire sprinklers at up to 50'.



Is this correct ?, I would think the smoke control is in addition to either a deluge OR fire curtain. 

I know that's how New York City requires it.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## BillConnerFASTC (Jun 11, 2014)

SteveB said:


> Is this correct ?, I would think the smoke control is in addition to either a deluge OR fire curtain.
> 
> I know that's how New York City requires it.
> 
> ...


I'll stand by what I said as being correct. Don't confuse stage ventilation - mostly bilco style roof vents today - with smoke control.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Jun 11, 2014)

TrentonShawn said:


> Hi I'm having problems with a fire curtain, a supplier is saying we don't need one but the building inspector says we do... we have a very small stage area, led lights, and only 11 ft high ceilings, not sure what a fly tower is though? could you give me some advice to take to our group?


Does not seem a fire safety curtain would be required for the stage you describe in most jurisdictions in the US. Can't explain. Could just be a crudgemugeon building inspector.


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## venuetech (Jun 12, 2014)

TrentonShawn said:


> Hi I'm having problems with a fire curtain, a supplier is saying we don't need one but the building inspector says we do... we have a very small stage area, led lights, and only 11 ft high ceilings, not sure what a fly tower is though? could you give me some advice to take to our group?


A Fly Tower (click the link) 
In my mind somewhere in the building permit the word "stage" is used, rather than "platform". the term "stage" will have very specific requirements that the building inspector must sign off on. I think what you have is a very small stage area  very small performance platform.
You may want to get together with the building inspector and make sure that the correct terminology was used on the application.


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## SteveB (Jun 12, 2014)

BillConnerASTC said:


> I'll stand by what I said as being correct. Don't confuse stage ventilation - mostly bilco style roof vents today - with smoke control.



Not confusing smoke control with roof doors. The NYC code changed in the late about 1970's or so to allow a powered smoke venting system as replacement to roof hatches/doors. A powered venting system is what I assume is what you are referring too as "smoke control". We actually have both systems in our spaces, the legacy roof doors that are now on a smoke detector, itself an issue of contention as we attempt to get them to change it to a heat detector (actually we want them closed permanently) as well as a powered smoke venting system that can be generator powered. 

In addition to those smoke control systems, we have a legacy fire curtain. There is much buzz currently among the engineers as to whether to bring the fire curtain up to code by replacing it's fused link trigger system with a heat detector system, or to inactivate the fire curtain and install a deluge. The deluge might have to happen as the floor to ceiling distance is under the 50ft requirement. Don't know if we can be grandfathered.

At no time have I heard any comment that any of the powered smoke control or the rood door systems are a replacement for a deluge or fire curtain as in my understanding smoke evacuation and deluge/fire curtain have completely different functions, thus your comment seemed odd that you could have one of the 3 only.


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## sk8rsdad (Jun 12, 2014)

Ontario Building Code is poorly written and/or reasoned when it comes to theatre.

There may be other related documents that cover things in more detail but the 2012 code says that a _*stage *_requires either a fire curtain or a deluge system (section 3.3.2.12). No exemptions for common sense. The wording is unchanged from the 1998 edition. So a curmudgeonly building inspector is going to insist on a fire separation, whether curtain or deluge. A sensible fire marshal may overrule. A smart architect would avoid using the word _stage_.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Jun 12, 2014)

First NYC is different from rest of US generally, and I don't know those codes like I do the major national model codes.

The smoke control system that the International Building Code and Life Safety Code permit as an option to a Fire Safety Curtain is different than the powered ventilation in place of roof vents you describe. What you describe is basically a big range hood. The smoke control that the IBC and LSC permits is a much more extensive system and for most intents and purposes, not practical, or at least not for under 5000 seats and even then, it has some practical problems. It requires significant make up air - think many many doors that open to the outside automatically upon detection of a fire - and sophisticated controls.

All of these systems - compartmentalization between stage and auditorium by curtain, deluge, or smoke control AND venting smoke from the stage - are all to provide adequate time for occupants to egress. Sprinklers slow growth of a fire and may put it out, but are primarily relied upon for property protection, not a major priority of the building and fire codes. In practically all of the large loss of life fires in assembly occupancies, asphixiation from smoke - or occasionally crowd crush - is the cause of death and if you look at theaters, almost always in the highest seats. So, keep smoke out of the audience. It seems where these systems have worked, the vents over the stage get the credit, and I can find very little justification for the US style fire safety curtain, because it does not stop smoke from getting through if the stage is positive pressure or - in other words - if the neutral pressure plane is below the top of the proscenium.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Jun 12, 2014)

I was a major proponent of several code changes in the late 80's early 90's which came close to taking the label game out of stages. Whatever platform and stage use to mean, the major model codes in the US now are clearer. 

STAGE. A space within a building utilized for entertainment
or presentations, which includes overhead hanging curtains,
drops, scenery or stage effects other than lighting and sound.

PLATFORM. A raised area within a building used for worship,
the presentation of music, plays or other entertainment;
the head table for special guests; the raised area for lecturers
and speakers; boxing and wrestling rings; theater-in-the-round
stages; and similar purposes wherein there are no overhead
hanging curtains, drops, scenery or stage effects other than
lighting and sound. A temporary platform is one installed for
not more than 30 days.

The only requirements for platforms address the construction of the raised floor, not what it's used for or what is permitted over it, so don't get misled by the definition. "wherein there are no overhead hanging curtains, drops, scenery or stage effects other than lighting and sound" is superfluous and not relevant to the use of the term in the code. It's difficult but definitions in the major model codes in the US and in ANSI standards are not requirements.


I remain amazed that the features and design for safety would ever be dependent upon a label, and not what something actually is, or in this case, what it is used for and what hazard it engenders.


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## SteveB (Jun 12, 2014)

Great info., thanks Bill.

I recall well the issues in the late 70's when NYC real estate developers looked at all that dead space above countless Broadway (and off-Broadway) proscenium houses and wanted to develop the air space above the stage towers. They couldn't use it till an alternative to stage roof doors became practical, thus the powered venting system AND the sprinkler deluge system in a lot of NYC spaces. Fortunately the city developed a system that gave tax breaks to developers if they included a theater in the building, which saw many new facilities built and saved to a large degree, the midtown theater district, which otherwise might have been lost.


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## sk8rsdad (Jun 12, 2014)

I remain amazed that the presence of curtains defines a stage. By this definition any arena concert and many tradeshow booths require a fire curtain and/or deluge system.


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## SteveB (Jun 12, 2014)

sk8rsdad said:


> I remain amazed that the presence of curtains defines a stage. By this definition any arena concert and many tradeshow booths require a fire curtain and/or deluge system.



We had our theater official classification change from something like "auditorium" to "theater" in 2000 when we bricked up the 8 side wall windows (being otherwise covered by curtains for 50 years)

The classification change then got caught by the fire alarm engineers doing an upgrade, who determined that the assorted alarm pull stations at every door, as well as the aural and strobe annuciators were all no longer code compliant. So all that stuff got removed. Many ugly holes in walls resulted. 

NYC is in a completely separate universe in many ways .


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## BillConnerFASTC (Jun 12, 2014)

sk8rsdad said:


> I remain amazed that the presence of curtains defines a stage. By this definition any arena concert and many tradeshow booths require a fire curtain and/or deluge system.


only if 50' high and above 1000 sq ft in area. It's the potential for combustibles stored above the stage - which a large area more than 50 high provides.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Jun 12, 2014)

I also have trouble with auditorium versus theatre - which is not in the national model codes - and prefer the concept of auditorium as seating chamber, stage as stage, and those two with any and all support spaces constituting a theatre. It's just using the OED and other dictionary's and a tiny bit of reading. It's like when the rural school administrator responds when a project is over budget - "I don't want a d___m the-ate-tor - I just want a plain auditorium!" - but he still wants a stage with curtains and lights and all that stuff.


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## balderson04 (Jun 14, 2014)

sk8rsdad said:


> Ontario Building Code is poorly written and/or reasoned when it comes to theatre.
> 
> There may be other related documents that cover things in more detail but the 2012 code says that a _*stage *_requires either a fire curtain or a deluge system (section 3.3.2.12). No exemptions for common sense. The wording is unchanged from the 1998 edition. So a curmudgeonly building inspector is going to insist on a fire separation, whether curtain or deluge. A sensible fire marshal may overrule. A smart architect would avoid using the word _stage_.



It's a question of the definition of "stage", which the Ontario Building Code defines as an area designed primarily for the production of live performances (slight paraphrase on that bit) with "facilities for overhead lighting and quick change scenery". Note the "and" -- without a fly grid AND overhead lighting, it's not a stage under the OBC and doesn't have to meet all of the requirements, including a fire curtain and/or deluge system. 

Our 120 seat theatre, opened in 2011, has a "raised performance platform" but not a stage.The building inspector was surprised by the wording, never having run into it before, but I had and made sure the architect used "performance area" rather than "stage" on the plans.

At the same time, the requirements for a "raised performance platform" are stricter than they were, just not as strict as for a "stage".


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## BillConnerFASTC (Jun 14, 2014)

Download the BCMC report for the basis of the IBC and close to LSC.

http://theatreconsultants.org/archives/position-papers/


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## Euphroe (Jun 16, 2014)

I am sure Bill deals with these subjects more than I have recently. But it appears the requirement for a fire curtain is triggered by the code applicable to the proscenium wall:

http://publicecodes.cyberregs.com/icod/ibc/2012/icod_ibc_2012_4_par255.htm

I know previously the proscenium opening size governed whether the curtain could be a brail type, or was required to be a straight lift. 

I was acrobatic rigging project manager for large show (several years ago), where the grid had been designed to extend past the stage and out over the house. I thought that odd, because the grid crossed the proscenium line and was not sealed/sealable. I mentioned it, but this was an overseas project with an overseas architect, and my mandate was performer flying, so I did not go policing other people's work where I wasn't sure of the applicable regulations. A couple of months later, panic ensued when the architect discovered the requirement that the proscenium line had to be sealed/sealable. This resulted in ad-hoc concrete pockets being cast above the grid, and I had to work around my winch lines routed through fire-lined tubes, etc. . Also my loft blocks had to be located in little chambers with poor access. An ugly fix that could have been avoided if the architect, the TD, the Prod Manager, etc. knew the first thing about theater construction and codes. And this was very high budget operation.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Jun 16, 2014)

Euphroe said:


> I am sure Bill deals with these subjects more than I have recently. But it appears the requirement for a fire curtain is triggered by the code applicable to the proscenium wall:



You got! Or should it be "By George, he's got it!" 

If the fire hazard in an area is great enough (as determined by height and area no, rather than if something was "retractable", or a number of other poorly founded ideas previously, and certainly not as determined by a label on a drawing) it should be compartmentalized. That means enclosed by fire resistive constriction. So if you have to enclose it by walls, on a stage one of those is likely to be what we call a proscenium wall, and just like other openings in the walls are required to be protected by a fire rated door, the large opening in the in a proscenium wall should be protected, and since doors are not always practical (though I have used rated rolling doors), we have a special way to protect proscenium openings called fire safety curtains.

It's all very simple and straight forward but not many get it. So my sincere congratulations to Euphrow for first, seeking out and reading the words in the code, and second, getting it.

If the stage is lower than 50', you just have to separate it from the rest of the building (by 1 hour versus 2 hour construction), but the audience can stay in the compartment.

Its not perfect. I think that the occupant load (number of seats) should be a factor, as it is in some other countries, and currently the stage requiring a proscenium wall does not have to be separated from the rest of the building - it's just the wall - and no rated construction around the end of the wall.


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## RedMapleMG (Sep 7, 2016)

Hi folks,
Can anyone advise if the 'stage' vs 'platform' distinctions apply in Canada (Ontario)?
I've noticed bands playing in bars on raised platforms (or just on ground level) with practically no regard for access routes etc.
What definitively defines a 'stage' or 'theatre'? I get the points about fly towers acting as chimneys, that's obvious enough.
But what if a raised performance space has no fly tower, no wing space, no backstage/dressing rooms (with fixed audience seating)? Sort of like an old style school house platform. Is that still a 'stage' or a 'theatre'?
More specifically, what determines the need for a fire curtain (in Ontario/Canada)? Does construction material matter? What about country barns converted to theatres, no fire curtain?
Thanks.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Sep 7, 2016)

Not sure if any of this applies in Canada but I think they do use the NFPA codes - some.

Life Safety Code defines stage as "A space within a building used for entertainment and utilizing drops or scenery or other stage effects." and platform as "The raised area within a building used for the presentation of music, plays, or other entertainment." Think of stage as a room with a function - like a kitchen - and platform as a specific feature - like a base cupboard and counter. Stages don't have to be raised, like they often are not in a black box theatre.

I believe the current definitions and requirements are not bad, much better than they use to be, but not perfect. It assumes that there is an above average hazard for fire because of props, scenery, and lighting. Further it basically uses area and height as the basis for determining the size of the hazard, the amount of combustibles possible being limited by less area and lower height.

So, forget whether its called a barn or has wings, but how much volume is there for combustibles. Yes, if it is an assembly occupancy with a stage, construction


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## Van (Sep 7, 2016)

My Understanding of the current code is that as long as your "fly space" the distance from the deck to the bottom of the grid, is under 50' No fire curtain is required. Most theatres being built in High schools and the the like are coming in at 48' to the grid. 
48' aff = no fire curtain
50' aff = fire curtain
Types of acceptable curtains are usually dictated by the AHJ.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Sep 7, 2016)

Van said:


> My Understanding of the current code is that as long as your "fly space" the distance from the deck to the bottom of the grid, is under 50' No fire curtain is required. Most theatres being built in High schools and the the like are coming in at 48' to the grid.
> 48' aff = no fire curtain
> 50' aff = fire curtain
> Types of acceptable curtains are usually dictated by the AHJ.


Two minor clarifications:

Over 50' requires proscenium opening protection (curtain, deluge, or smoke control) so it can be 50'.

The height is measured from the lowest point on the stage floor to the highest point on the roof or floor deck over the stage. That is not what I think of as grid, but I suppose it could be on occasion.

I do a lot of 49'-8" to top of steel, where the roof deck sits. When this was written it meant bottom of floor or roof deck but is often misinterpreted to be top of roof deck today.

PS: download BCMC report linked above. It is the basis for stage requirements in the IBC.


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## RonHebbard (Sep 7, 2016)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> Download the BCMC report for the basis of the IBC and close to LSC.
> 
> http://theatreconsultants.org/archives/position-papers/


How many HTG (Honest To God) deluge curtains are you seeing installed these days. I keep thinking back to one that destroyed a building under construction in downtown NYC back in about 1990.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Sep 7, 2016)

RonHebbard said:


> How many HTG (Honest To God) deluge curtains are you seeing installed these days. I keep thinking back to one that destroyed a building under construction in downtown NYC back in about 1990.
> Toodleoo!
> Ron Hebbard.


A few. Just did Alley Theatre. I've done quite a few over past 35 years. They need to have pre-action controls per the sprinkler standard however.


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## RedMapleMG (Oct 7, 2016)

thanks, folks, very helpful.
it makes sense that things like combustibles and volume need to be taken into account. and I guess fire escape routes etc.
seems like a regulatory minefield!


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## BillConnerFASTC (Oct 8, 2016)

It was difficult for a while, when the determining factor was if things (scenery, curtains) were "retractable". It was very inconsistently interpreted. Higher space because the plans did not show rigging got away without protection, recital halls with large doors where scenery could be "retracted" from the stage were required to have protection. It was this goofiness that gave rise to the Braille style FSC.

The changes to this being determined by the size of the stage - area and height - has made this much more consistently interpreted.


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