# Front Lighting a Church Stage



## rroten (May 8, 2015)

Hi All,

I am currently designing a basic lighting system to front light our church stage area. The stage is 34' wide, by 12' deep at the center (diagram attached). Lighting hangs would be about 20' throw distance. I would like to highlight the podium zone with 2 point lighting (ellipsoidal). I was thinking of using Par 56 cans lamped at 500W for the rest, but I'm not sure how many I need. I was thinking of 5 zones, with the podium zone being handled by the ellipsoidal pair. That leaves 4 zones for the Pars to cover. Does anyone have suggestions? I would consider using ellipsoidals everywhere, but I'm worried about the increased cost. I likely wouldn't be able to afford 2-point all the way across with ellipsoidals.


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## lwinters630 (May 8, 2015)

rroten said:


> Hi All,
> 
> I am currently designing a basic lighting system to front light our church stage area. The stage is 34' wide, by 12' deep at the center (diagram attached). Lighting hangs would be about 20' throw distance. I would like to highlight the podium zone with 2 point lighting (ellipsoidal). I was thinking of using Par 56 cans lamped at 500W for the rest, but I'm not sure how many I need. I was thinking of 5 zones, with the podium zone being handled by the ellipsoidal pair. That leaves 4 zones for the Pars to cover. Does anyone have suggestions? I would consider using ellipsoidals everywhere, but I'm worried about the increased cost. I likely wouldn't be able to afford 2-point all the way across with ellipsoidals.
> View attachment 11983


The answer is more complex. If you video or will, then you need a minimum 3 point.
If your audience wraps around the thrust stage, then cross light the face. A 10' diameter divided by your throw distance will give you the degree lense. Pars are oval beams with little control to keep off video screens or other areas. If it were me use source 4 elellipsoidals With zone 1, 2, 4, and 5 straight on. Zone 3 podium cross lit. Soft focus edge, peak the field and overlap edges 10%. As funds become available add source 4 pars as back light.


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## rroten (May 9, 2015)

lwinters630 said:


> The answer is more complex. If you video or will, then you need a minimum 3 point.
> If your audience wraps around the thrust stage, then cross light the face. A 10' diameter divided by your throw distance will give you the degree lense. Pars are oval beams with little control to keep off video screens or other areas. If it were me use source 4 elellipsoidals With zone 1, 2, 4, and 5 straight on. Zone 3 podium cross lit. Soft focus edge, peak the field and overlap edges 10%. As funds become available add source 4 pars as back light.



Thanks for the advice. No video, and no audience wrap around. I may have enough budget for this if I stick with something like the 575W source4 Jrs or similar. I'm interested in your backlight comment. I'm not really sure I understand how that would look. There is a wall directly behind the stage, so any backlight would be more like downlight. I attached a model of our current stage, and how it will be after the complete remodel.


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## BillConnerFASTC (May 9, 2015)

You will want some backlight of some kind to separate people from the wall. Even if just two pair of profiles - on at each upper corner of the back wall - but something.

And the angle off the horizontal (elevation, angle of) is missing from the discussion. I prefer 35 to 40 over the more "theatrical" 45 degrees that allows separating upstage from downstage, which is not practical in 12' on a tight budget, nor that useful.


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## JD (May 9, 2015)

Ceiling height is a big factor! You need to make sure you can obtain enough of an angle or you could end up with a lot of complaints. Also, is that a proposed video screen? #2 would probably be better as you want to avoid spill light on the screen. New flat panels have a lot of kick, but you still want to avoid spilling on them which again goes back to how far up you can get the front lights. Clergy types may have a problem with #2 as they would voice their priorities on what is most high  (I work in a church)


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## rroten (May 9, 2015)

BillConnerASTC said:


> You will want some backlight of some kind to separate people from the wall. Even if just two pair of profiles - on at each upper corner of the back wall - but something.



Bill, sorry for the stupid question, but what is a profile? Just an ellipsoidal? From an angle stand point, I was hoping to get the front lights at around 45degrees. I don't want to blind anyone on stage.


JD said:


> Ceiling height is a big factor! You need to make sure you can obtain enough of an angle or you could end up with a lot of complaints. Also, is that a proposed video screen? #2 would probably be better as you want to avoid spill light on the screen. New flat panels have a lot of kick, but you still want to avoid spilling on them which again goes back to how far up you can get the front lights. Clergy types may have a problem with #2 as they would voice their priorities on what is most high  (I work in a church)



JD, the first picture is actually how things are now. #2 Is the proposed plan for a multi-stage remodel of our sanctuary which the pastor is 100% on-board with. The screen is a projector screen. 

Budget wise I have 3-4K to light the stage including dimming and control. I will probably go with MyDMX for control.


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## AsherSB (May 9, 2015)

Used Source 4 juniors, and cheap satellite dimmers would let you do a lot all within budget. I would recommend downloading and trying a lot of software before buying an interface and committing to anything in particular. Lightfactory, Showxpress, FreeStyler, and QLC/QLC+ are all good, pretty cheap options with a fair amount of resources available. Also a profile is pretty much an ellipsoidal, and anything with a yellow dotted line under it leads to a wiki page about it, a feature that makes control booth even more helpful, and that I use all the time.


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## BillConnerFASTC (May 10, 2015)

An ellipsoidal reflector spotlight is a profile, but many LEDs are also profiles, functionally do what an ERS does, but has no ellipsoidal, so what I use to call a leko I now call a profile (and maybe more call a Source 4).

I think you'll find 45 degrees will result in dark eye sockets and dark shadows under chins, and accentuate aging. With more budget you could add some straight on - like balcony rail - lighting, and at a very low level they can light eyes and lighten shadows without blinding.

As Tom Skelton said, rail is best.


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## rroten (May 11, 2015)

Thanks for all of the responses. Here is my current plan that I will propose for phase 1.

Front light: Podium zone - 2 x Source 4 Jr.
4 Stage zones - 1 x Source 4 Jr. each.

Front of Stage Highlight: 2 x Par 38 (Gives some extra light on floor in front of stage for weddings, funerals, etc.)

Back/Side Light: 2 x Source 4 Par in each back corner of the stage (Still not sure about this. May just wait and put Source 4 Jrs to help avoid spill on projector screen).


I'm also still considering switching out the 4 source 4 Jrs handling the stage front light to source 4 pars. It seems they can be picked up fairly cheap on the used market. We could eventually switch those to Jrs and use the pars for other applications. Any thoughts on these ideas? I also found a picture of our sanctuary for reference.


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## lwinters630 (May 13, 2015)

Thoughts....
I'm not a fan of the jr. Smaller gobo size. can't change barrels. I'd stay with source 4's and s4 pars. Not 38's. That way you only have one bulb to inventory.

Where are you mounting them?

You'll need 7 more 20 amp circuits. If you don't have this power, consider etc color source or desire on network.

You may only need 3 zones. At 10 ft wide. Check your throw from fixture to the face. Perhaps a s4 -36


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## BernsBright (May 13, 2015)

I know that the Altman 65Q is not sexy. Even brand new, they look old. BUT- if budget is the only thing stopping you from hanging more fixtures, look into them as an option. You'll get more control over beam spread and spillage using a Fresnel than a Par can, and they have nice soft edges so they blend nicely. Just my 2 cents, but you've got a change jar full of good advice in this thread!


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## rroten (May 13, 2015)

lwinters630 said:


> Thoughts....
> I'm not a fan of the jr. Smaller gobo size. can't change barrels. I'd stay with source 4's and s4 pars. Not 38's. That way you only have one bulb to inventory.



Interesting thoughts. I'm not worried about gobos, and I like the price point of the Jr.


lwinters630 said:


> Where are you mounting them?



We will have someone come in and drop some pipe below the grid ceiling, probably following the same angle. Exact positions are still undecided.


lwinters630 said:


> You'll need 7 more 20 amp circuits. If you don't have this power, consider etc color source or desire on network.



We are prepared to run multiple 20 amp circuits. The color source fixtures are nice, but a little over budget. Although I need to check with added cost of dimming, etc. How is the white on these?


lwinters630 said:


> You may only need 3 zones. At 10 ft wide. Check your throw from fixture to the face. Perhaps a s4 -36



I like this idea. I'm estimating that throw distance would be somewhere around 20ft.


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## rroten (May 13, 2015)

BernsBright said:


> I know that the Altman 65Q is not sexy. Even brand new, they look old. BUT- if budget is the only thing stopping you from hanging more fixtures, look into them as an option. You'll get more control over beam spread and spillage using a Fresnel than a Par can, and they have nice soft edges so they blend nicely. Just my 2 cents, but you've got a change jar full of good advice in this thread!



I never thought to use Fresnel fixtures. I may look into this some more.


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## robartsd (May 14, 2015)

Do keep in mind that if your pipe follows the slope of the ceiling, your throw distances and angles will vary across the stage. Following the slope of the ceiling is probably best for the feel of the space, but your lighting design (and possibly fixture choice) needs to consider how to work with the slope.


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## RickR (May 14, 2015)

I never use an even number of areas on a stage. There is ALWAYS a call for a down center area. Sure you can use the center 2 areas, but they had better blend perfectly!


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## Les (May 15, 2015)

RickR said:


> I never use an even number of areas on a stage. There is ALWAYS a call for a down center area. Sure you can use the center 2 areas, but they had better blend perfectly!



Definitely this. At least have one special dedicated to this area. Even if you decide to cheap out on the rest.


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## rroten (Sep 27, 2015)

Hey guys, 

So after months of planning, we finally pulled the trigger on phase 1 of the remodel. We replaced all of the house fluorescents with drop-in LED fixtures. We also added the pipe for front lighting. Here's what we ended up with:

4 x S4JR 36 degree @ 575W
6 x Chauvet slimpar tri 12
2 x par38
2 x Chauvet slimpar quad 3 (column uplights)
NSI/Leviton dimmer packs
dpro2 software

I wanted to thank everyone in this thread for the help. We are very happy with the way it came out. The next phase is to remodel the stage area, and we will add backlight at that point.


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## Wood4321 (Sep 29, 2015)

Not to be a debbie downer, but WTF? 
Who did the install? There is no way this is code compliant. Especially for a public space!
How much pipe is cantilevered past the last pick point? How is the aircraft cable attached to the pipe? Why does it look like the 3rd cable is totally slack?
And I am making an assumption here that you didn't install actual wiring to the final location, and are running extension cords through a drop ceiling? (Please tell me I am wrong!)
Please call an electrical inspector and get this done right. There is no way any fire marshall or electrical inspector would allow this system in a public space.
(and thats just at first glance)

Sorry, just my .02


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## rroten (Sep 29, 2015)

Wood4321 said:


> Not to be a debbie downer, but WTF?
> Who did the install? There is no way this is code compliant. Especially for a public space!
> How much pipe is cantilevered past the last pick point? How is the aircraft cable attached to the pipe? Why does it look like the 3rd cable is totally slack?
> And I am making an assumption here that you didn't install actual wiring to the final location, and are running extension cords through a drop ceiling? (Please tell me I am wrong!)
> ...



The pipe was installed by a contractor, but he has never done entertainment or theatrical (church member, but licensed and insured). The aircraft cable is attached similar to this http://www.iweiss.com/rigging/suspension/ but the eye bolts directly to the pipe clamp (no turnbuckle). The 3rd cable was a bit slack in this photo, but we fixed that. As far as electrical is concerned, there is conduit running from the panel all the way to a box on each side of the pipe. There is a dedicated 20A circuit on each side. (No extension cords and installed by electrician. You're wrong! )

BTW, no need to be sorry. I love this board because of the honesty and concern for safety.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Sep 30, 2015)

What is the "pipe clamp"? Looks like a conduit clip. Just not seeing how the eye is attached to batten.


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## Wood4321 (Sep 30, 2015)

I'm with Bill here, This looks not right..
Also, So you have conduit attached to the pipe, but the pipe is hanging from aircraft cable? That also doesn't seem quite right.

Even with your caveats. I think you should get a rigging company to come in and take a look.


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## rroten (Sep 30, 2015)

Hmm, I'm not sure about the clamps. I was mainly involved in the electronic aspect. I know they seemed really beefy. 3/8" bolts on the clamp and a 3/8" eye threaded in with lock washers and nuts on both sides. I remember someone mentioning that they were rated for over 300lbs. If I remember right, total hang was <100lbs. I'll speak to the staff about having someone take a look.

On the conduit, from above the ceiling down is flex kind of like this: http://www.grainger.com/product/ELE...m/rp/s/is/image/Grainger/3FLF9_AS01?$smthumb$


Aside from the rigging concerns, would anyone care to comment on the actual lighting design? I'm really curious for thoughts from people with much more experience than me.


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## Les (Sep 30, 2015)

I think it looks good, design wise. Seems like you were able to get a pretty even wash. Good job keeping it off the projector screen. Any other pics showing effects/colors/combinations you're able to achieve?


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## DuckJordan (Sep 30, 2015)

rroten said:


> Hmm, I'm not sure about the clamps. I was mainly involved in the electronic aspect. I know they seemed really beefy. 3/8" bolts on the clamp and a 3/8" eye threaded in with lock washers and nuts on both sides. I remember someone mentioning that they were rated for over 300lbs. If I remember right, total hang was <100lbs. I'll speak to the staff about having someone take a look.
> 
> On the conduit, from above the ceiling down is flex kind of like this: http://www.grainger.com/product/ELE...m/rp/s/is/image/Grainger/3FLF9_AS01?$smthumb$
> 
> ...




So two things to note. You have no idea how much weight this pipe can take, you have no idea if the structure supporting the pipe can handle the load.

You need to get a building inspection done and you need to get an entertainment rigger in there 3 point loads are a headache for a newbie to figure out

Sent from my XT1060 using Tapatalk


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## BillConnerFASTC (Oct 1, 2015)

You did good. It was just the batten clamp that seems odd. Also seems more than 100 pounds. The pipe batten is probably near 60 and 14 units surely more than 3 pounds each. Most would say plan for 30 plf so 600 pounds or so, with a design factor of 8:1.

But seems like a big improvement. Time to start planning the next step forward!


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## AsherSB (Oct 1, 2015)

I agree with the safety concerns, but the design looks good. I would clean up those cables, they are pretty bad. Overall though I like it a lot.


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## rroten (Oct 1, 2015)

AsherSB said:


> I agree with the safety concerns, but the design looks good. I would clean up those cables, they are pretty bad. Overall though I like it a lot.



Thanks! Funny thing is, I spent a lot of time trying to clean up the cabling. Any pointers to hide the cables better?


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## AsherSB (Oct 2, 2015)

Use Velcro ties, always use Velcro ties. Also always bundle cables and run them on to the pipe, never between lights. On the dimmers bundle everything together and coil any extra cable behind the box, so it isn't visible from the pews.


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