# Cost advantage for Broadway vs Hollywood Flats?



## Mara (Sep 25, 2017)

What are the best building methods to control for costs? We typically build Hollywood style flats, but costs of lumber are exponential. We also don't have much storage space, so we tend to re-build flats often.

Is there a cost advantage to using Broadway style flats? Another type?

Any other cost saving ideas for set building/construction? I.e. a way to get discounts or styles that we haven't thought of?


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## Van (Sep 25, 2017)

My preference between the two has never really been driven by Cost, but by need, and function. If Storage is an issue Broadways are certainly thinner, However Broadways tend to require more bracing and and stiffeners than Studios <holllywoods>. Remember anything you cut, structurally, from a flat to save money will cost you in the engineering integrity, and over all flimsiness of the end product. The best bet is to keep your eyes open for Lumber sales, Find a good, local, distributor who is willing to work with you or has a soft spot for Theater who will help you with costs either 'cause they are nice or for ad space in a playbill. If possible always buy in bulk.

Oh and it's been discussed here before but it bears repeating, Since labor, in Theatre, is so often not a consideration to the Bottom line; Purchasing 1x8 and ripping to 2 1/8" can sometimes yeild good cost results when building Studio flats. I would not go that small for Broadways but it works for studios.


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## StradivariusBone (Sep 25, 2017)

The framing costs between broadway and hollywood flats are almost negligible. Near where we are the cost of 1x is no small concern, but I've taken to picking through the ferring strip pile for 1x3's that are straight enough for our needs. I know some carps will turn up their noses at the stuff, but I've built a number of flats with them without much fuss. What Van said about the bracing is something to take into account as that can affect cost. We use hollywoods if it's static on the ground but I greatly prefer flying broadways over hollywood. 

The surfaces would be where I expect cost saving to play in more. I've been using hardboard to save money and finally am getting tired of that, so I'm considering switching back to luan, but I'm guessing that soft flats (though more time-consuming to assemble) would be cheaper to manufacture. Though you lose a lot of the structural rigidity a hard flat gives you.


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## Mara (Sep 25, 2017)

Van said:


> My preference between the two has never really been driven by Cost, but by need, and function. If Storage is an issue Broadways are certainly thinner, However Broadways tend to require more bracing and and stiffeners than Studios <holllywoods>. Remember anything you cut, structurally, from a flat to save money will cost you in the engineering integrity, and over all flimsiness of the end product. The best bet is to keep your eyes open for Lumber sales, Find a good, local, distributor who is willing to work with you or has a soft spot for Theater who will help you with costs either 'cause they are nice or for ad space in a playbill. If possible always buy in bulk.
> 
> Oh and it's been discussed here before but it bears repeating, Since labor, in Theatre, is so often not a consideration to the Bottom line; Purchasing 1x8 and ripping to 2 1/8" can sometimes yeild good cost results when building Studio flats. I would not go that small for Broadways but it works for studios.



Thanks! Most of the sets we build lately are static so less concerned about bracing than typical. We are struggling with costs at my theater and I'm trying to come up with some alternatives or ideas on ways we can still build our beautiful sets without breaking the bank and hopefully breaking even on the show. 

Here's an example of what we are currently building for Barefoot. It's a beautiful set, with several levels and plexi. My board of trustees is unhappy with the costs.


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## microstar (Sep 25, 2017)

Nice set. My question would be who sets and approves the budget for each show or the season? Surely your board of trustees has input or at least approval of the production budget. If building this set is within that budget, you could point that out. If you're over budget, then they obviously have something to complain about.


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## DRU (Sep 25, 2017)

Flats, in my experience, have always been where most of my costs go. Every show required custom flats. If you keep stock flats of both Broadway and Hollywood styles, you can substitute large, flat areas with stock and just custom cut the edges. You can look at steel or aluminum framed flats, but I haven't done a cost/benefit analysis with steel or aluminum for myself yet.


Van said:


> Oh and it's been discussed here before but it bears repeating, Since labor, in Theatre, is so often not a consideration to the Bottom line; Purchasing 1x8 and ripping to 2 1/8" can sometimes yeild good cost results when building Studio flats. I would not go that small for Broadways but it works for studios.



Unless you pay REALLY close attention to knots, doing this technically de-grades your wood. Lumber grades (#1, #2, #3) are determined by a ratio of knot size to width of board. A 1x4 #2 and a 1x8 #2 are the same grade, but the maximum required knot size for that grade is bigger for the 1x8 than the 1x4. So, when you rip down a 1x8 to a smaller size, you put a larger knot size into a smaller width, so while you save money, you might get the equivalent of #3 or worse with your cuts. 


StradivariusBone said:


> The framing costs between broadway and hollywood flats are almost negligible.



I did a cost analysis of Broadway vs. Hollywood construction at my old job, and hard Broadways barely cost less, but as said, almost negligilbe.


StradivariusBone said:


> We use hollywoods if it's static on the ground but I greatly prefer flying broadways over hollywood.



That was the same conclusion I came to. Hollywoods have a wider base that allows you to screw into the ground, and Broadways have a lower profile which works for flying and tracking.


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## Van (Sep 25, 2017)

DRU said:


> Unless you pay REALLY close attention to knots, doing this technically de-grades your wood. Lumber grades (#1, #2, #3) are determined by a ratio of knot size to width of board. A 1x4 #2 and a 1x8 #2 are the same grade, but the maximum required knot size for that grade is bigger for the 1x8 than the 1x4. So, when you rip down a 1x8 to a smaller size, you put a larger knot size into a smaller width, so while you save money, you might get the equivalent of #3 or worse with your cuts.



I usually assume Folks have a general working knowledge of craft unless they specifically state otherwise. Someone capable of creating the set pictured above would be one that, I feel, falls into that category. One would hope that one would have presence of mind enough to not use a piece of ripped down lumber that was negatively impacted by the inclusion of Larger knots because of ripping. If one does not have said presence on mind one might not want to spend too much time around power tools.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Sep 25, 2017)

I'm curious as to how tall most folks are building these for a high school setting. I'll admit its been a while for me but use to consider 14' kind of standard for a box set. All "broadway" style, standard 5'-9" wide, but have built up to 8' wide. I guess no one thinks dutching the seams has a cost but seem like hollywood is limited to 4' and has more seams.

Also I'm guessing no covering on the hollywood? I never built hollywood flats without covering with muslin, which would seem to negate the idea of being less expensive but YMMV.


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## dbaxter (Sep 25, 2017)

I don't know if the raised floor is permanent or not, but if not, long term savings might be had by developing a stock of 4x8, 4x4, 4x6 platforms to slide together for flooring. We build ours with 1x6's and 3/4 ply. We also make 1x3's from a sheet of 3/4 ply ripped in slices to avoid the warp and knot problem.
For walls, we've used classic luan, but also indoor/outdoor carpeting (made an elegant apartment for _Boeing, Boeing_) and foam carpet padding for concrete/stucco walls in _Hot L Baltimore_. You need to do a 2x4 frame for the whole wall in those cases.


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## kicknargel (Sep 25, 2017)

We tend to frame in plywood rather than 1x, mostly because in our dry climate 1x warps really fast in the rack. We do have to scab together butt joints for runs longer than 8'. At $45/sheet for paint grade birch, comes to about $.43 / ft @ 3.5". You could sacrifice strength/convenience to use cheaper ply as well. 

Revolution Ply (at Lowe's) is a sustainable product, and a bit cheaper than good-quality lauan.


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## gafftapegreenia (Sep 25, 2017)

My main employer builds most flats/walls out of 1.5" x 1.5" 16ga or 18ga box tube, covered in lauan, and then wrapped in muslin. When we do build all wood flats, they're studio style, and we never bother ripping down the 1x4 from nominal dimension.

I won't even get in to the shops I know of that frame their flats in poplar.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Sep 26, 2017)

kicknargel said:


> We tend to frame in plywood rather than 1x, mostly because in our dry climate 1x warps really fast in the rack. We do have to scab together butt joints for runs longer than 8'. At $45/sheet for paint grade birch, comes to about $.43 / ft @ 3.5". You could sacrifice strength/convenience to use cheaper ply as well.
> 
> Revolution Ply (at Lowe's) is a sustainable product, and a bit cheaper than good-quality lauan.


Staples and glue on framing joints? While i see labor to rip ply as not insignificant i like the dimensional stability. Like modern cabinets.


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## JChenault (Sep 26, 2017)

I work in a theatre that uses a framing method that I have never seen before. They frame using 2x2. IE they take 2x4 and rip into 2x2. They skin with Luan. 2x4 is plentiful and comparatively cheap. Works out as less than 1x4or 1x3. It's thinner than a typical Hollywood flat so storage is easier. There is enough edge so you cam drill flats together like true Hollywood flats. 

It seems strange to me when I first saw it, but it works well for them.


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## TheaterEd (Sep 26, 2017)

JChenault said:


> I work in a theatre that uses a framing method that I have never seen before. They frame using 2x2. IE they take 2x4 and rip into 2x2. They skin with Luan. 2x4 is plentiful and comparatively cheap. Works out as less than 1x4or 1x3. It's thinner than a typical Hollywood flat so storage is easier. There is enough edge so you cam drill flats together like true Hollywood flats.
> 
> It seems strange to me when I first saw it, but it works well for them.


It seems strange to me as well, but I'm not really seeing a downside here. Anyone care to tell me why I shouldn't start doing this for my flats here at the school?

(note, I wouldn't need new flats here at the school if the moms and dads would stop taking them apart during strike )


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## Van (Sep 26, 2017)

TheaterEd said:


> It seems strange to me as well, but I'm not really seeing a downside here. Anyone care to tell me why I shouldn't start doing this for my flats here at the school?
> 
> (note, I wouldn't need new flats here at the school if the moms and dads would stop taking them apart during strike )


Warpage would be my first guess. Any square profiled lumber is going to be much more susceptible to curving and twisting than a rectangular profie. A squre profiled makes it harder to pull the warp out.

A shop I used to be at used their CNC mill to cut all the parts of a flat from plywood, including adding little 1/16" rabbets for the toggles to sit in... I don't work there anymore.


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## kicknargel (Sep 26, 2017)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> Staples and glue on framing joints? While i see labor to rip ply as not insignificant i like the dimensional stability. Like modern cabinets.



Yes, the birch is a pretty dense 7-ply veneer core, which takes glue and staples pretty well. For a stock flat, we add a toggle directly on top of the top and bottom rails to strengthen that connection, which takes the most abuse. 

In terms of 2x2, besides the warpage mentioned, downside is the extra width is not adding much stiffness, and you're losing some with the 1.5" depth. A 1x3 is stiffer in its wide dimension than a 2x2 is.


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## Van (Sep 26, 2017)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> Staples and glue on framing joints? ...



Staples and glue on Framing joints of flats is an industry standard, AFAIK


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## JohnD (Sep 26, 2017)

Van said:


> Staples and glue on Framing joints of flats is an industry standard, AFAIK


What!!! No clinch plates anymore!!!


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## BillConnerFASTC (Sep 26, 2017)

Van said:


> Staples and glue on Framing joints of flats is an industry standard, AFAIK


With plywood framing? 

Hey, what happen to clout nails? That's my industry standard. 5/4 x 4 clear of course.


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## Van (Sep 26, 2017)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> With plywood framing?...



And even with Pin nailing, sometimes.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Sep 26, 2017)

JohnD said:


> What!!! No clinch plates anymore!!!



Flats and parallels - built with corner blocks and clout nails - staples (pun intended) of the industry. Glue? I didn't need any stinking glue. Except to put canvas on and size them.


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## gafftapegreenia (Sep 26, 2017)

If you're looking for someone with clout to do some nailing, perhaps @derekleffew could be of assistance ?


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## gafftapegreenia (Sep 26, 2017)

JChenault said:


> I work in a theatre that uses a framing method that I have never seen before. They frame using 2x2. IE they take 2x4 and rip into 2x2. They skin with Luan. 2x4 is plentiful and comparatively cheap. Works out as less than 1x4or 1x3. It's thinner than a typical Hollywood flat so storage is easier. There is enough edge so you cam drill flats together like true Hollywood flats.
> 
> It seems strange to me when I first saw it, but it works well for them.



Thats something I've seen done at several "storefronts". Its nothing I have a problem with really, and its nice because you can screw any which way you like at a corner to attach flats together. The only people Ive met with strong opposition to it are those with traditional theatrical training.


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## lwinters630 (Sep 26, 2017)

Storage, Do you have tall ceiling in your storage where you can put warehouse racking, store heavy items low and Hollywood flats above them.


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## hjhillhouse (Sep 27, 2017)

Other things to consider about Broadway styles is the movement of the muslin, particularly in sets with doors... I hate fabric shakes, and it takes several coats of paint before the muslin is stiff enough to stop moving.  Also, the additional skill required of knowing how to paint on muslin without showing off the edges of the framing. Depending on the skills of your paint crew, it can be an issue.


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## kendal69 (Sep 27, 2017)

I see you actual problem and it's "My board of trustees is unhappy with the costs." You need to lay down the law with the board, simply tell them to decide, do they want a quality production of do they want to save money because they can not have both. If they want to save money tell them you will collect old refrigerator boxes from home depot and build your sets out of them. Otherwise all them to get off your behind and let you do your work. It's time to set your foot down and educate the "suits" all they look at is numbers and they think you can just "cut" whenever you fell like it. Time to tell then NO, not gonna do it. Grow a pair, and stand up to the board and let them know you can't work and be creative under their conditions. [DROP THE MIC]


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## TheaterEd (Sep 27, 2017)

kendal69 said:


> [DROP THE MIC]



If that was anything other than a sm58 you just dropped sound department is taking it out of your budget.


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## StradivariusBone (Sep 27, 2017)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> Hey, what happen to clout nails?



That's what I use. That and a little glue on the corner blocks and it holds up tight. Plus my kids learn how to drive a nail which might come in handy for them later in life. My local store stocks some 1/2" ones for roofing. 

I never thought to use staples! What gauge staples are you guys using to frame these things? I'm assuming the heavier duty ones you see in fence construction?


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## JChenault (Sep 27, 2017)

StradivariusBone said:


> That's what I use. That and a little glue on the corner blocks and it holds up tight. Plus my kids learn how to drive a nail which might come in handy for them later in life. My local store stocks some 1/2" ones for roofing.
> 
> I never thought to use staples! What gauge staples are you guys using to frame these things? I'm assuming the heavier duty ones you see in fence construction?



Er... in my experience ( assuming you are talking about 1x3or 1x4 with 1/4 inch ply a clout nail would need to be 1 1/4 inch long. The idea is that the nail goes through the ply and 1x , hits a clinch plate, and bends back into the 1x in a 'U' shape. A roofing nail is not a clout nail.

By staples, some kind of construction staple with a pneumatic driver. When I was building scenery out of wood we had narrow crown staples, 3/4 inch long.


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## RonHebbard (Sep 27, 2017)

TheaterEd said:


> If that was anything other than a sm58 you just dropped sound department is taking it out of your budget.


 @TheaterEd Or an EV664 or 635 or . . .
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.


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## RonHebbard (Sep 27, 2017)

JChenault said:


> Er... in my experience ( assuming you are talking about 1x3or 1x4 with 1/4 inch ply a clout nail would need to be 1 1/4 inch long. The idea is that the nail goes through the ply and 1x , hits a clinch plate, and bends back into the 1x in a 'U' shape. A roofing nail is not a clout nail.
> 
> By staples, some kind of construction staple with a pneumatic driver. When I was building scenery out of wood we had narrow crown staples, 3/4 inch long.


@JChenault Were the pneumatic staples only to hold the joint together until the glue dried?
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.


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## StradivariusBone (Sep 27, 2017)

JChenault said:


> Er... in my experience ( assuming you are talking about 1x3or 1x4 with 1/4 inch ply a clout nail would need to be 1 1/4 inch long. The idea is that the nail goes through the ply and 1x , hits a clinch plate, and bends back into the 1x in a 'U' shape. A roofing nail is not a clout nail.



These are what I was talking about.  I know roofing nail covers some wide territory, but I think they use this to tack down felt. I don't know where I was coming from with the 1/2" though. I've been trying to figure out more permanent shutters for my house in light of these hurricanes and I don't think my brain is processing hardware properly at this point.


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## jdenora (Sep 27, 2017)

Mara said:


> What are the best building methods to control for costs? We typically build Hollywood style flats, but costs of lumber are exponential. We also don't have much storage space, so we tend to re-build flats often.
> 
> Is there a cost advantage to using Broadway style flats? Another type?
> 
> Any other cost saving ideas for set building/construction? I.e. a way to get discounts or styles that we haven't thought of?



I don't think there is a tremendous cost savings between Broadway flats and Hollywood flats, not even if you implement some of the variations in construction methods that have been suggested in other posts. Either time or materials will add up. Instead of destroying the flats after every production, perhaps you should consider your storage space. If you do not have enough at your theater, find places to store flats off site. You could rent a storage unit, which are climate controlled and should preserve your flats quite nicely. The monthly costs may be less than rebuilding them all the time. You will also be saving a lot of construction time on each production, and time is money. If presented to your board that way, you may have a winning solution.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Sep 27, 2017)

StradivariusBone said:


> That's what I use. That and a little glue on the corner blocks and it holds up tight. Plus my kids learn how to drive a nail which might come in handy for them later in life. My local store stocks some 1/2" ones for roofing.
> 
> I never thought to use staples! What gauge staples are you guys using to frame these things? I'm assuming the heavier duty ones you see in fence construction?


OMG Google and Strad agree and neither knows what a clout nails use to be. Amazing.

Looked like a cut nail, soft iron, nailed through corner blocks and still on a steel plate and the end curls back into still.

PS - square wedge, across grain so it doesn't split the pine.


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## gafftapegreenia (Sep 27, 2017)

I like using a wide crown stapler to shoot on the keystones and corner blocks, but many shops don't have that gun or the proper ammo for it. I also haven't built a true Broadway flat in a few years. 

The last thing that I DID built that was flat like was a set of three large roadboxes out of 7-layer 3/4" ply. Before facing one side with 1/4" ply, I used a corrugated stapler to put the frames together. I put two staples in one face, and one on the opposite side. Corrugated staples work great in ply, whereas they tend to split 1x pine.


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## StradivariusBone (Sep 27, 2017)

The softer iron would make more sense with the curl. I just always heard anything with a wider than normal head referred to as a clout nail. I figured it was a category of some kind. Is this more of what you all are talking about? - http://www.glasgowsteelnail.com/restore.htm#clout


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## BillConnerFASTC (Sep 27, 2017)

StradivariusBone said:


> The softer iron would make more sense with the curl. I just always heard anything with a wider than normal head referred to as a clout nail. I figured it was a category of some kind. Is this more of what you all are talking about? - http://www.glasgowsteelnail.com/restore.htm#clout


Yes. 
https://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=clinch+nails&tag=controlbooth-20
Amazon never disappoints


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## EWCguy (Oct 4, 2017)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> ...a cut nail, soft iron, nailed through corner blocks and still on a steel plate and the end curls back into still.



I'm picturing this building process. Is the steel plate just a temporary use item just to turn the nail on driving? Drive nail from face side or corner block?


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## Van (Oct 4, 2017)

EWCguy said:


> I'm picturing this building process. Is the steel plate just a temporary use item just to turn the nail on driving? Drive nail from face side or corner block?


The nail was driven through the Corner block, Keystone or half keystone, the Clinch plate lay on the floor. The Point of the nail would hit it then turn back into the face of the frame material. You wanted the head on the Back side for the larger area of retention force. And yes, getting rust stains in the corners of your flats was an issue.

Some shops would have clinch plates installed in 'Standard' areas of the shop floor. More often than not the clinch was just another tool you moved around when you needed it.


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## JonCarter (Oct 4, 2017)

13 nails in a corner block, 9 nails in a keystone, and always orient the nails so that they curl across the grain.


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## RonHebbard (Oct 5, 2017)

JonCarter said:


> 13 nails in a corner block, 9 nails in a keystone, and always orient the nails so that they curl across the grain.


 @JonCarter ; You might mention / explain that after clinching on the plate, the face side of the flat's frame was flawlessly smooth and scratch / catch free. If it wasn't, or the nail's point was at all perceptible to an un-gloved fingertip, you hadn't hit the nail's head hard and fast enough with a sufficiently weighty hammer. Short handled 5 pound sledges were popular in my area along with 20 and 22 ounce ripping hammers. @Van is correct when he mentioned rusting, as water from glue and sizing would often result in tiny dots of rust appearing on the face surface of your canvas covering material. 
You were building fabric covered flats at the time were you not? Of course you were, you're a fellow 'geezer' too!
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Oct 5, 2017)

I don't remember the rust so much. Fabric was glued to rear of framing. Then the front was sized, but not soaked. Ah, the smell of animal glue, especially if it burned.


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## JChenault (Oct 5, 2017)

Old Pharte alert


BillConnerFASTC said:


> I don't remember the rust so much. Fabric was glued to rear of framing. Then the front was sized, but not soaked. Ah, the smell of animal glue, especially if it burned.



I was always taught not to wrap but glue/staple to the front and trim the muslin 1/8 inch or so from the edge of the flat. Always of course using clear 1x3 ( unless the flat was over 16 feet).


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## Van (Oct 5, 2017)

JChenault said:


> Old Pharte alert
> I was always taught not to wrap but glue/staple to the front and trim the muslin 1/8 inch or so from the edge of the flat. Always of course using clear 1x3 ( unless the flat was over 16 feet).



We always stapled into the side, about 3/8" down, then trimmed with razor knife. If you di it properly the very edge of the muslin was slightly buried in the kerf of the blade cut.


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## kicknargel (Oct 5, 2017)

Yeah, we glued to the face, then stapled into the edges at an angle so the staples were removable. After sizing, pull the staples and trim to the face edge of the flat.


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## RonHebbard (Oct 5, 2017)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> I don't remember the rust so much. Fabric was glued to rear of framing. Then the front was sized, but not soaked. Ah, the smell of animal glue, especially if it burned.


TLDR ALERT ! ! ! @BillConnerFASTC @Van @JChenault My days of clinched and fabric covered flats were spent in the basement shop of an amateur group in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. On the plus side, they had a 5' x 16' bench with storage for 4' x 8' sheet stock and 1 x 2 - 3 & 4" #1 pine [They rarely had the budget for clear unless they were building something which would be varnished or stained rather than hidden, painted or wall papered] in lengths ranging from 1 to 16 feet all neatly organized in individually separated and labelled storage locations within the supporting structure of the bench. The bench's working surface was a double layer of 3/4" ply with the upper layer replaced every couple of years as required. The poured concrete floor was approximately 4 steps / less then 3' below grade. We had shallow windows approximately 2' high just below ceiling level and lighting was overhead 8' CW T12 fluorescents. Space to work and walk all around the bench and no need to build flat on the floor. There were a selection of 4 or 5 clinch plates but nothing specially shaped. The most popular plate was about a 1' square piece of flat steel a little more than 1/4" thick which was kept on the bench and was trotted about as required. A straight 16' length of 1 x 3 was secured to the bench top the entire length of one side with a 5' length across one end serving as a permanent square for assembling flawlessly square / rectangular flats. 14' flats were their most popular height but any lengths up to 16' were built on the bench. One of the best "tricks" was installing the squaring strips / alignment guides [Whatever the correct nomenclature might be] with a 1/2" gap where they met in the corner, still rigidly and squarely secured but not quite touching one another to make it easy to brush or blow accumulating sawdust out of the corner where it would have interfered with pushing 1" x 3" stock tightly against the guides. Me? I was a lighting and sound kid still in high school and working in commercial broadcast at the time but I donated my share of hours to building flats as it was difficult to focus on a set that wasn't built yet. For an amateur group it was a great facility and it's still there and being used with the addition of a panel saw for ripping and cross-cutting sheet goods, a 12" radial arm, and a couple of portable chop saws; a 12" that remains in the shop and a 10" that gets dragged up to the stage during assembly. Adjacent basement rooms store their inventory of flats laying on edge as opposed to standing with other basement rooms dedicated to paint and wall paper storage and props along with a much smaller room for 36 of their dimmers directly below their stage level 48 x 100 circuit slide patch.
Nothing's perfect. On the negative side, being amateurs, they were using LePages water based white glue for assembly and diluting it with water to attach covering then further diluting it to brush or roll on for sizing. Hence their minor rusting problems. Some "carpenters" [they were all amateurs] chose to staple fabric on the rear while others chose the edges and the 'sinners' stapled on the face then trimmed the excess while the thinned glue was still setting. Their theory was a layer of masking tape across joints would hide all sins.
Sorry! That's far too many syllables on the joys of amateur carpentry for a blind, decrepit, sound and lighting guy.
Anybody remember a thread from a couple of years ago where someone claimed he'd been lighting shows since the days of candles and got off on a tangent about experimenting with improvements in the wicking of whale oil?
It wasn't @JonCarter but I can't recall who it was.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.


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## JonCarter (Oct 5, 2017)

No, Ron, I came along a _little_ later than the whale oil days. 

I remember very well a work table as much as you describe. Ours was 6' x 16', double ply top. We always built our flats with the covering staples on the face, first toward the center of the flat, then glue the flap, then staple along the outside edge & trim. (We used to use hide glue (it was an outdoor theatre) but the rain always caused problems with the glue and the stage paint. About 1955 we switched to casein glue and paint--thot we'd died & gone to heaven.) Always fastened the covering on the face of the flat and had the paint crew dutchman any joints. Covering wrapping the frames and fastened on the back gets cut & damaged handling the flat--more work for the next guy.

Clinch nails & _5# sledges??_ Didn't you guys eat your oatmeal? I never had any problem using my 1# Estwing. Two swats and a good one to clinch.


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## RonHebbard (Oct 6, 2017)

JonCarter said:


> No, Ron, I came along a _little_ later than the whale oil days.
> 
> I remember very well a work table as much as you describe. Ours was 6' x 16', double ply top. We always built our flats with the covering staples on the face, first toward the center of the flat, then glue the flap, then staple along the outside edge & trim. (We used to use hide glue (it was an outdoor theatre) but the rain always caused problems with the glue and the stage paint. About 1955 we switched to casein glue and paint--thot we'd died & gone to heaven.) Always fastened the covering on the face of the flat and had the paint crew dutchman any joints. Covering wrapping the frames and fastened on the back gets cut & damaged handling the flat--more work for the next guy.
> 
> Clinch nails & _5# sledges??_ Didn't you guys eat your oatmeal? I never had any problem using my 1# Estwing. Two swats and a good one to clinch.


 DEFINITELY TLDR *AGAIN!*
@JonCarter Personally, I was never a fan of the Estwings, something about the angle of their striking face in relation to the longitudinal axis of their handles. I always liked their appearance, balance and quality but they never matched the hammer I began my apprenticeship with. With the first hammer I purchased, I could pound nails all day exactly as you describe. Anytime / every time someone would hand me their Estwing to drive one nail, I'd consistently knock it over / away from me. It was totally due to having spent years with my first hammer and my arm's "muscle memories" found it nigh on impossible to use any of the Estwings for any useful purpose. My marteau (Spelling) of choice was a 20 ounce Stanley F1 straight claw framing hammer which I purchased to pound my 5/8" square x 18" long Sears Craftsman cold chisel that I bought as part of my initial collection of pro' grade tools when I commenced the first year of my construction and maintenance electrical apprenticeship. Whenever the cold chisel's head began to 'mushroom', I'd give it a few rotations against a bench grinder. Periodically I'd utilize the same grinder to reshape and sharpen the cutting end. Every few years, it'd be getting a bit shorter and, being a Craftsman tool, my local Sears store would replace it with a new one. Not that it was broken as such but I'd show a clerk my chisel next to a new one with the identically stamped matching part numbers facing she or he and they'd agree I'd clearly put a lot of miles on it and cheerfully give me my gratis exchange. To this day, I still own one of those chisels and my original Stanley F1 hammer. 
To get back to the short-handled 5 pound sledges; many / most of the amateurs didn't swing a hammer for a living and couldn't drive a nail home by coffee break. Thus a pair of short-handled five pounders were kept on hand for the lady teachers and folks who flew desks all day to play and entertain themselves with.
Guys on job sites where always ragging me for my foot and a half / 18" long cold chisels with cat calls such as "Don't like to get too close to your work sonny?" If you're carefully cutting a missed box into a finished concrete block supporting wall or adding extra receptacles and / or switches being included as after the fact extra cost additions to a project which were added after the signing of the contract AND the wall is constructed from 12" blocks, the additional length often comes in handy. If you're several stories up above finished grade, working from inside and needing to get at least a guide hole on the exterior, it's REALLY nice to have something left to grab as your chisel suddenly breaks through and attempts to sail off into the sunset and / or land on someone or something outside. He who laughs last is the kid with the long chisel when some journeyman loses his 8, 10 or 12 incher into the innards of a finished block wall. Secondarily, if you're constructing a building from the foundations up on a site in a sea of mud with your car parked a half mile away and you're carrying ALL of the tools you need to get through your day with you, you elect to carry one chisel rather than a selection of three or four. If I was only going to tote one all day, I wanted my most versatile and my Craftsman 5/8" square by 18" long was my chisel of choice and NEVER let me down over the course of my five year apprenticeship and my time in doing lighting and sound in a soft=seater road house. I can't recall ever needing my chisel once I switched allegiances, to became the IA head of sound in the Stratford Festival's main stage and rented an apartment in Stratford. No, I'm pretty sure the chisel remained home in Hamilton and moved directly to Burlington from there. I still own it. Know where it is at the moment. It's still never let me down and I STILL type posts that are TOO LONG and rambling. I also bought a Craftsman two pound ball-peen back when I originally purchased my first long cold chisel but I've rarely needed to drag it out as the 20 ounce Stanley F1 perpetually served the great bulk of my needs.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.


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## gafftapegreenia (Oct 6, 2017)

Hammers are just one of those things that has to be decided by feel. I own an Estwing but I usually reach for a Stanley Fatmax Anti-Vibe first. I just prefer its balance. I also love the True Temper hammers I inherited from a great Uncle, but those stay at home and never go to a shop. 

A few years ago I got my first dead blow mallet and I've never looked back. Anything that needs a bit of "persuasion" that's what I pick up first. 

As for chisels, I need a cold chisel a few times a month in the metal shop, but the real star chisel is a 3/4" "beater" wood chisel. That gets touch up on the grinding wheel about once a week. 

I've never driven a cinch nail, never been in a shop that was set up to do them, and doubt I ever will be.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Oct 6, 2017)

Yes, it was on face. Only wrapped Hollywood flats, hospital sheet folds at corners and all.

Seem to recall not leaving staples as kicknargel suggests. And burying edge in pine when trimming.

Still don't recall rust. Were there plain and blued clout nails maybe, and the premium blued ones were less likely to rust?


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## RonHebbard (Oct 6, 2017)

gafftapegreenia said:


> Hammers are just one of those things that has to be decided by feel. I own an Estwing but I usually reach for a Stanley Fatmax Anti-Vibe first. I just prefer its balance. I also love the True Temper hammers I inherited from a great Uncle, but those stay at home and never go to a shop.
> 
> A few years ago I got my first dead blow mallet and I've never looked back. Anything that needs a bit of "persuasion" that's what I pick up first.
> 
> ...


 @gafftapegreenia In total agreement plus your mention of "dead blows" evokes a memory.
A different amateur group in my area has one member who's a a serious machinist and felt the group should add a two pound "high-viz" dead blow to their disorganized collection of tools which included at least six 16 ounce claw hammers and one two pound ball peen. The high-viz [Being Day-Glow orange] instantly became the brightest, most visually attention commanding, tool in their box. In no time, every eager-beaver who wanted to help grabbed the dead blow and carried it about looking for something they could help with. We had 'well intentioned' folks doing everything from trying to support a thumb tack between heir fingers and attempting to push it in with the dead blow, to folks driving 3" finishing nails into the edges of 1 x 3 pine, to folks attempting to pound 2.5" hardened concrete nails into block walls, to folks using it to start 3" #8 flat heads into pine prior to driving them home with their cordless. ALL OF THE ABOVE *with a dead blow!* Within a matter of weeks, and realize these folks were only working a few evenings and weekends, *the dead blow was toast* with a hole through its striking face and its "shot" rolling hazardously across the floor over about half the building. *STILL* the perilously helpful were grabbing the now *empty* dead blow and attempting to use it to drive screws, nails; anything they could hit with it.
*FURTHER TOPIC SWERVE WARNING: * 
As if we haven't swerved this more than far enough already, folks who'd select a dead blow with reckless abandon are essentially of the same mindset as A/V 'wonder-kind' who mate any connectors that physically fit regardless of cable / signal types or levels. 
From comparative cost analysis of scenic flat construction, 
through a brief discussion of hammer types and applications, 
to the selection of A/V cable and connector types. 
Possibly we could cover Cam-Locks vs. 125 Amp pin and sleeves along with how many neutrals and dedicated ground conductors are desired / required in a 'Company switch'.
*No!* Let's not go there, at least not in this thread.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.


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## kicknargel (Oct 9, 2017)

RonHebbard said:


> high-viz [Being Day-Glow orange]



Ours is called "L'Orange." (In your best French accent.)


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## bobgaggle (Oct 10, 2017)

Its hard to get people to understand that not all hammers do the same things...I've seen many shot pellets rolling around. 

I'm surprised that some people haven't heard of using staples in flat construction. All the shops I've worked in have their trusty porter cable or rigid narrow crown staplers that every flat gets put together with. In my current shop we actually use duo fast carpet tackers to put broadway flats together with 9/16" divergent point staples to attach the luan corner blocks/keystones (does anyone use ACTUAL keystones anymore? we just cut rectangles...) On hard covered broadway flats we'll use the corrugated fastener and avoid blocks all together

Of course this is when we're not building reusable scenery, just about all of our local jobs run for a few weeks then get pitched in the dumpster, so we don't have to build for longevity.


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## gafftapegreenia (Oct 10, 2017)

bobgaggle said:


> Its hard to get people to understand that not all hammers do the same things...I've seen many shot pellets rolling around.
> 
> I'm surprised that some people haven't heard of using staples in flat construction. All the shops I've worked in have their trusty porter cable or rigid narrow crown staplers that every flat gets put together with. In my current shop we actually use duo fast carpet tackers to put broadway flats together with 9/16" divergent point staples to attach the luan corner blocks/keystones (does anyone use ACTUAL keystones anymore? we just cut rectangles...) On hard covered broadway flats we'll use the corrugated fastener and avoid blocks all together
> 
> Of course this is when we're not building reusable scenery, just about all of our local jobs run for a few weeks then get pitched in the dumpster, so we don't have to build for longevity.



Every professional shop I've worked in shoots their flats together with narrow crow staples. A few like medium crown for the framing. It's only at the storefronts where I'm still screwing 1x flat frames together.

Shops like Hudson also build platforms out of 1x stock and 3/4" ply all shot together with medium crown staples.

A coworker turned me on to 3/16" crown 19 gauge staples last year and it's become my preferred way to attach lauan. No blow thru!

I was a one hammer man for years, and then I realized how nice the ball peen is in the metal shop for punches. Now I have a growing pile of hammers.


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## JohnD (Oct 10, 2017)

But do you have a TAIT Towers BFH?


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## RonHebbard (Oct 10, 2017)

bobgaggle said:


> Its hard to get people to understand that not all hammers do the same things...I've seen many shot pellets rolling around.
> 
> I'm surprised that some people haven't heard of using staples in flat construction. All the shops I've worked in have their trusty porter cable or rigid narrow crown staplers that every flat gets put together with. In my current shop we actually use duo fast carpet tackers to put broadway flats together with 9/16" divergent point staples to attach the luan corner blocks/keystones (does anyone use ACTUAL keystones anymore? we just cut rectangles...) On hard covered broadway flats we'll use the corrugated fastener and avoid blocks all together
> 
> Of course this is when we're not building reusable scenery, just about all of our local jobs run for a few weeks then get pitched in the dumpster, so we don't have to build for longevity.


 @bobgaggle Back in 1990, I toured with a production all the way to Broadway's Shubert. We were carrying an assortment of black velour and / or Commando cloth covered flats to suit the needs of the various venues we were scheduled to visit on our way from Toronto, where the production was originally produced, through Calgary's PAC, which is comparatively huge, SanFransisco, which was medium sized, and finally into Broadway's Shubert which, like most Broadway houses, is quite cramped and tight backstage. The bulk of our masking was constructed using welded square tubular steel frames with the covering fabrics glued in place. Our touring carpenter, along with the Shubert's house carpenter and a young fellow from Radio City who local 1 laid on as the "Production Load-in carpenter", elected to load ALL of our masking into the auditorium, select from our stock over the course of load-in / hang & focus, then summon a trailer mounted crusher / shredder to park outside the Shubert for one hour to dispose of our unused masking, fabric + steel, in one visit. The producers, in conjunction with Broadway's police, organized a permit to allow us to begin loading excess items to the sidewalk one hour prior the crusher / shredder's arrival time in preparation to have our entire operation completed within our permitted time. In the darkness of pre-dawn, our crew began hauling masking out to the street and lining it up in preparation for as quick a disposal as possible. Bear in mind we were touring with steel framed borders approximately 20 to 22 feet by 4' and legs of similar sizes. An operator who arrived with the crusher / shredder was feeding one end of each piece into the open jaws of this "contraption" then quickly stepping aside as 20' of steel began waving up and down as it was being pulled into the machine, gripped, chopped, pulled into the shredder then spit into the dumpster. 
The sounds and noise levels were UNREAL. ALL of the masking flats, along with anything else no longer required, were devoured within our allotted time and the rental company's truck returned to tow the entire rig away. ALL within the time allowed by our permit. Broadway police arrived towards the end of our permit to ensure their sidewalk and narrow road was totally clear for the onset of morning rush hour. 
Prior to this, I'd NEVER experienced a machine like this "eating welded steel" on a city street in the heart of downtown. I found it both interesting and fascinating to say the least. I guess I'd been living a sheltered life up here north of the border.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.


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## JonCarter (Oct 10, 2017)

Maybe I'm old fashioned, but why waste all that? Why not stick it back on the truck it came in, take it home and donate it to some poor underfunded community theatre? Or is it a union thing, can't re-use stuff?


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## gafftapegreenia (Oct 11, 2017)

JonCarter said:


> Maybe I'm old fashioned, but why waste all that? Why not stick it back on the truck it came in, take it home and donate it to some poor underfunded community theatre? Or is it a union thing, can't re-use stuff?



Broadway is a unique beast. Even more so than usual it's all about the bottom line. Why pay to truck something you don't need?


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## RonHebbard (Oct 11, 2017)

JonCarter said:


> Maybe I'm old fashioned, but why waste all that? Why not stick it back on the truck it came in, take it home and donate it to some poor underfunded community theatre? Or is it a union thing, can't re-use stuff?


 @JonCarter Sorry atJon, my internet's been down all night since 11:51 p.m. my time. 
I think that way myself and would've loved to have sent it back home and given it away to friends. The borders were welded in sections for handling convenience and assembled into somewhere in the area of 60' wide, three sections thus no center seam. 
All of the masking, legs and borders, were fitted with hanging cables and trim chains when they went into the machine. 
To your question:
This was a full-bore Equity / IA production. Thus:
IA scenery built by IA members in an IA shop.
The producers, and others FAR above my lowly status, made all decisions and determinations.
We already had mountains of gear we were shipping home as we were carrying FOH lighting instruments for three vastly different sizes of venues. 
Our FOH lighting; instruments of focal lengths for two flown trusses, two balcony rails and six box booms [three per side] were of different focal lengths to accommodate the vastly different requirements of venues we were touring through along the way to the Shubert thus, once we reached Broadway, we had literally tons of gear to return to Canada. Not only masking was being shredded; Our touring deck contained automated tracks and the sectional deck was built to accommodate three sizes of venues. When we reached the comparatively tiny Shubert, we had custom painted decking modules hitting the shredder as well. Our tour left Toronto in 7, densely packed, trailers. Once we were in previews, our seven trailers were parked across the river in New Jersey on the parking lot a rental shop housed in a former twin-pad skating rink. [If any of our New York / New Jersey members recognize this shop from my description I'd love to know the name of the shop as they were GREAT in terms of friendliness and loaning us ramps and forklifts for shuffling crates between trailers when it came time to compact our unused items into 3 or 4 trailers and return the no longer needed trailers to their owners] 
As the local 1 production electrician was keeping me on for a month past opening in a mutual favors arrangement, I considered myself fortunate to have my personal touring box returned to a shop in Toronto who were willing to store it for me gratis until my return a month after the rest of our empties and now surplus gear. 
I totally concur with your thoughts @JonCarter but I was touring as the second assistant LX / Lead spot op' / focuser of ALL FOH instruments. Decisions Re: what was being shredded were made FAR above my level.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.


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## kicknargel (Oct 11, 2017)

Not to mention factors such as population density, real estate prices, absence of alleys, and strong unions dominate the economics and make crazy stuff make sense. When I did some Off-Broadway, I had to totally shift my mindset to a situation where not only was there not a dock, there wasn't a parking space. All loading had to be accomplished through double-parking on the street, and there's no such thing as running to Home Depot for an extra piece of trim.


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## gafftapegreenia (Feb 24, 2018)

JohnD said:


> But do you have a TAIT Towers BFH?




No I sadly don't have a clown hammer. If I find myself back in truss land I'm gonna get a brass hammers for truss pins.


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