# LED lighting, I'm the DUMMIE!!



## postmaster (Nov 18, 2011)

I hope someone here can help me. I know almost nothing about stage lighting, was an audio engineer back in the day, but that is doing me no good on this project. My boss, knows I have an audio background, has tasked me with this stage lighting project, oh boy!!
They want to use all LED lights for a permanent music stage installed in their restaurant. It will consist of 12 LED pars for the front lighting and 12 LED pars for the back lighting run on two trusses. 

I THINK, after reading everything I can come up with on the web, each light will need a 120v power supply and one dmx cable. The dmx can "daisy chain" from one light to the next light for all twelve lights on the chain and with a 20 amp circuit, with each light drawing ~1.36 amps, 12 pars can be daisy chained on the 120v end as well.  

With this kind of set up and the proper mixing board will we be able to control each light separately for color and intensity? 

 [FONT=&quot]Will we need a mixing board with two dmx outs to control each of the 12 light circuits and each light separately? I have barely even seen a light mixing board and just assume you can get one with two dmx channels out. 

Am I even close in my thought process here?

Thanks everyone in advance. I know I am way out of my league, but the boss dumped this one in my lap. I know nothing about this, and have being telling them so for weeks. My only saving grace is this is for a small concert stage and not real theater lighting!
Doug
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## Les (Nov 18, 2011)

I'm assuming that you want to keep your budget low, in which case you will find that most of these boards have only one DMX output. The good news is that you can control up to 512 DMX channels for each DMX out by daisy chaining as you describe. The key is to address all of your fixtures individually; I.E. Fixture 1= channels 1-6, Fixture 2= channels 7-12, etc. You set the addresses on the fixtures themselves, usually via digital readout (DIP switches on older lights). This will allow you to individually control each parameter the light has to offer (keep in mind that LED fixtures can take more or less than the 6 channels I used as an example above. It depends on the fixtures you choose). 

The 120v mains need to be constant power, and shouldn't be connected to the board. You can power them through DMX relay packs (to shut them down for the night), but nothing else. No "dimmers set to full", "non-dim", etc.

Boards with 2 DMX outputs (or "universes") are out there, but you don't need one in this case. They also cost a few thousand each.

Hope this helps!


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## postmaster (Nov 18, 2011)

Thanks for the reply Leslie,
The problem with only one channel is the boss is very big on aesthetics and wants two separate trusses running the width of the stage and does NOT want a wire linking one truss to the next truss, like a dmx daisy chained from one truss to the next truss. I have seen some LED pars that have a three pin out and a 5 pin out on the same fixture. Can you have both outs operating at the same time? MAN AM I IN OVER MY HEAD!
Doug


Les said:


> I'm assuming that you want to keep your budget low, in which case you will find boards with one DMX output. The good news is that you can control up to 512 DMX channels for each DMX out by daisy chaining as you describe. The key is to address all of your fixtures individually; I.E. Fixture 1= channels 1-6, Fixture 2= channels 7-12, etc.
> 
> Boards with 2 DMX outputs (or "universes") are out there, but you don't need one in your case. They also cost a few thousand.
> 
> Hope this helps!


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## DuckJordan (Nov 18, 2011)

No it is definately not recomended. You could look on getting a splitter. It's going to be expensive so ask your boss if he's willing to spend the cash to hide 1 cable? 

One thing that you need to look out for is will this be busked (run by individual faders in no standard order), or cues. If busked you may want to look at a more physical console than a pc type system. Another question who will run this? 

Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk


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## Les (Nov 18, 2011)

Yes, you can mix and match 5-pin and 3-pin fixtures, as long as you're using the correct adapters, cables, etc. 

I second what Duck said. Probably the cheapest way to get a split signal is an opto-splitter, but cheap is a relative term. It would be cheaper than going with a 2-universe board, so yes; is it worth it? That could easily add $1500 on to the price. PC based systems may get you two universes on a budget but I haven't looked in to the prices on that --- or the prices on opto-splitters. My figures are ballpark, so hopefully someone with numbers will chime in. You may look in to that Enttec unit in the WIKI link above (just click on where I wrote 'opto-splitter').


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## avkid (Nov 18, 2011)

An optical splitter can be had for less than $200.


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## postmaster (Nov 18, 2011)

Les and Duckjordan,
We are going to buy a board with sliders and it will be run by someone we will have to train. We are in a small town a long way away from anywhere and will not be able to find anyone who has ever run lights. It is concert lighting, way easier than theater. The boss IS willing to pay almost anything for aesthetics, and the pockets are deep. The boss wants the truss and board because it looks good. I have told her that we can do this just as good without the truss ($8,000) or a light board, but she likes the looks. It is nice to have a boss that doesn't worry about budget.
Doug


Les said:


> Yes, you can mix and match 5-pin and 3-pin fixtures, as long as you're using the correct adapters, cables, etc.
> 
> I second what Duck said. Probably the cheapest way to get a split signal is an opto-splitter, but cheap is a relative term. It would be cheaper than going with a 2-universe board, so yes; is it worth it? That could easily add $1500 on to the price. PC based systems may get you two universes on a budget but I haven't looked in to the prices on that --- or the prices on opto-splitters. My figures are ballpark, so hopefully someone with numbers will chime in.


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## chausman (Nov 18, 2011)

Les said:


> Boards with 2 DMX outputs (or "universes") are out there, but you don't need one in this case. They also cost a few thousand each.
> 
> Hope this helps!


 
there are a few boards (elation comes To mind) that have two identical DMX outputs. But the op could daisy chain all 24 together.


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## mstaylor (Nov 18, 2011)

The reason for the three pin and five pin is some fixture manufacturers decided to be noncompliant and it caught on. DMX uses pins one, two and three so it can operate on either three or five. What you don't want to do is use audio cable for DMX. DMX compliant cable is 120 Ohm plus the twist is different. The other thing you don't want to do is use a twofer to tie the trusses together. 
You could tie all the units on the truss together, run it down the tree and back up to the other truss. Then come out of the last light and go to your board. You can address your lights in any order but obviously it easier to do it in order. Since you are inexperienced I would suggest addressing in tens. Make the first one 1-6, the second 11-16, the third 21-26. It just makes it easier to remember which is which. 
If your boss absolutely insists cabling each truss seperately you would need a opti-splitter. Much cheaper than a board with two universes.


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## derekleffew (Nov 18, 2011)

postmaster, have you chosen the LED PAR fixtures yet? They range in price from $99-$2500 each, and in complexity from 3 channels (RGB) to 15 channels, and in quality from complete junk to you-can't-believe-it's-not-butter. 

As previously stated, an opto-splitter ($99-$1500) easily solves the problem of daisy-chaining from truss to truss.
ETC SmartFadeML -> Enttec D-Split -> US Truss, Fixtures 13-24 -> Terminator, DMX
ETC SmartFadeML -> Enttec D-Split -> DS Truss, Fixtures 01-12 -> Terminator, DMX


postmaster said:


> ...It is concert lighting, way easier than theater. ...


I bet many would take exception to that statement.

I'd also consider putting some of those fixtures on the deck, to give more interest than just from the two trusses.

postmaster said:


> ... for a permanent music stage installed in their restaurant. ...


What are the stage dimensions, where will the trusses hang, and what is the ceiling height?


postmaster said:


> ...I have seen some LED pars that have a three pin out and a 5 pin out on the same fixture. Can you have both outs operating at the same time?...


No; that's creating a Y-split, a big no-no in DMX512 rules. You CAN use the fixture as an adapter, e.g., 5 in/3 out, or 3 in/5 out, however. It saves you using an adapter, 3-5 or adapter, 5-3.


SFML 01 Welcome & Goals - YouTube


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## avkid (Nov 18, 2011)

postmaster said:


> It is concert lighting, way easier than theater.


 Oh really now?
Those moving lights don't program themselves.


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## techieman33 (Nov 18, 2011)

avkid said:


> Oh really now?
> Those moving lights don't program themselves.


 
You program your moving lights? Haha everyone know that sound active mode is way better than anything you can program :rollseyes:


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## JD (Nov 18, 2011)

postmaster said:


> It is concert lighting, way easier than theater.



Hummmm.... I would say that there are three little words that make even club lighting a heart stopper.....

"Set list change."

Nothing like a lead singer announcing they are about to do a number that you have nothing programed for, or have even heard of the song before! (We've all been there, and usually have some tricks up our selves, but it can be nerve wracking.) 

Anyway, although it is a great concept to have every fixture on it's own set of DMX channels.... If you are breaking someone in, you may want to simplify the channel layout. Possibly dedicate six on the rear and six on the front as general wash fixtures, and set them to the same address (One for the front and one for the back.)

If you are new to this, 72 channels to achieve a given scene may be a little mind numbing. Adding the wash concept drops that to 42 channels, and gives you a fast way to get the stage lit when improvising. As you get comfortable with the system, then divide them up.


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## len (Nov 18, 2011)

Yeah, get a splitter.

But for a stage like this, with 24 pars, even if you only run them in 3 channel mode, is 72 channels and that's a lot to program. My guess is that the person running this is not going to be a lighting person, or even have a full time person for this one job.

I'd set the downstage truss to pair up from outside to in, so fixture 1 and 12 are the same, 2 and 11, 3 and 10, etc.

Same with the upstage, but that also depends on if you need some spotlights, etc.


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## Morte615 (Nov 18, 2011)

Yeah club lighting is not as complex in some ways as stadium concert lighting, but in others it's just as complex or worse! Though with some pre-planning, thought, and some hard work up front, you can simplify the operation of the system on a day to day basis.

I would recommend doing A LOT of research (posting here is a good start!) and if no one in the venue knows lighting very well then I would recommend hiring someone who does for the initial consult and instillation.

But some ideas to get started with:
The look of the stage and surroundings are not something to put off lightly. The look of the truss outlining the stage and how the stage fits with the room (and the audio system, don't forget about that) are the first things people will see, before any lights are turned on!

Figure out what kind of look you are looking for, and get a budget! The worst thing is to have someone say, "The sky's the limit!" and when you start talking $1,000, $5000, $10,000 or more they turn around and say, "Whoa! Can't we do it cheaper?" Then you have to start from scratch.

The nice part about LED fixtures is that they are so low voltage, you can probably plug every fixture into one 20 amp circuit (but check your wattage before trying it!) and just connect the fixtures with a DMX cable. Most lower end LED fixtures will have a 3 pin DMX in and out so that is what I would look to use. Just make sure to use good quality DMX cables (*Please no mic cable*!) to hook everything up.

Boards are as numerous as the different situations that you want to do with them. First I would figure out what you want to be able to do with your board, as well as how you want to be able to operate the lights. I would think with your situation you would want something simple to use at first but with lots of capability for more options once you (or whoever you train) get comfortable and learn the board. I would recommend, especially if you want to be able to do a basic show as soon as the system is hooked up, to hire a programmer to program some basic commands so all you have to do is hit a button and the lights will start to work. Then you can have some more advance commands that can be run also to add something nice to the shows. Then as you get comfortable with the board feel free to stop using the original programs (at least till you need someone who doesn't know the system to turn it on because a last minute emergency came up and no one else is able to run the board, it happens!)

There is much more to talk about but it really takes a two way conversation to get through all of it. But in closing I would figure out what type of look you are going for and get a budget then go from there.


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## Gern (Nov 18, 2011)

postmaster said:


> Les and Duckjordan,
> We are going to buy a board with sliders and it will be run by someone we will have to train. We are in a small town a long way away from anywhere and will not be able to find anyone who has ever run lights. It is concert lighting, way easier than theater. The boss IS willing to pay almost anything for aesthetics, and the pockets are deep. The boss wants the truss and board because it looks good. I have told her that we can do this just as good without the truss ($8,000) or a light board, but she likes the looks. It is nice to have a boss that doesn't worry about budget.
> Doug



I LOVE my ETC brand Ion console & 2x20 fader wings, You'd learn it & enjoy using it, or 'set it and forget it'. I bet She'd like how it looks too! Looks cool running color effects with the monitor on 'ML Controls'. Plus this site has plenty of folks willing & able to help answer your learning curve questions. When you purchase the console you can also receive factory trained set & teaching at your venue.
GO for it.
btw I'd think you could get an Ion a wing & 2 elo touchscreen monitors for (well) under $15K.


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## techieman33 (Nov 19, 2011)

Gern said:


> I LOVE my ETC brand Ion console & 2x20 fader wings, You'd learn it & enjoy using it, or 'set it and forget it'. I bet She'd like how it looks too! Looks cool running color effects with the monitor on 'ML Controls'. Plus this site has plenty of folks willing & able to help answer your learning curve questions. When you purchase the console you can also receive factory trained set & teaching at your venue.
> GO for it.
> btw I'd think you could get an Ion a wing & 2 elo touchscreen monitors for (well) under $15K.


 
That is a TON of console for 24 led pars. I know he said "unlimited" budget, but that is just over the top when there are so many consoles that are more than capable of controlling those lights at a fraction of the cost.


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## Gern (Nov 19, 2011)

techieman33 said:


> That is a TON of console for 24 led pars. I know he said "unlimited" budget, but that is just over the top when there are so many consoles that are more than capable of controlling those lights at a fraction of the cost.


 
OP:
It is concert lighting, way easier than theater. The boss IS willing to pay almost anything for aesthetics, and the pockets are deep. The boss wants the truss and board because it looks good. 

Given that, I totally disagree. I would say, IMHO the best concert console, a Grand MA 2 would be a TON of console. I also haven't used anything other than the top 5 Major manufacturers consoles for the past 20 years. I laugh when I go into locations that have that stuff. I use a console I bring in.


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## Tex (Nov 19, 2011)

Gern said:


> I laugh when I go into locations that have that stuff. I use a console I bring in.


So, you bought an ION for your personal use?
Spending extra money for stuff you don't need isn't "cool". There are no style points given for equipment brand. If you saw a show and thought it was good, would you change your opinion if you found out they used an ADJ lighting console?


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## LXPlot (Nov 19, 2011)

Gern said:


> Given that, I totally disagree. I would say, IMHO the best concert console, a Grand MA 2 would be a TON of console. I also haven't used anything other than the top 5 Major manufacturers consoles for the past 20 years. I laugh when I go into locations that have that stuff. I use a console I bring in.



An Element would be large enough to control what he described. A SmartFadeML would be large enough to control what he described. An Express 48/96 would be large enough to control what he described. As would an LP1k, a Basic Palette, a PC solution, 2 Scene Setters, etc. GrandMA2 would be to much board, but Ion would be to much as well, especially considering the fact that when your console setup is more expensive than all of your fixtures combined (with a few exceptions), you're doing something wrong.


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## len (Nov 19, 2011)

One other thought:

If you're putting truss in and have an "unlimited" budget, hang the truss with motors. Eventually, you'll want to do stuff with that truss. More lights, different lights, different focus, movers, etc. Why not make it easy on yourself and use motors now, rather than deal with schlepping new fixtures up ladder.


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## derekleffew (Nov 19, 2011)

LXPlot said:


> ...especially considering the fact that when your console setup is more expensive than all of your fixtures combined (with a few exceptions), you're doing something wrong.


Hmmm, let's see:
Front Truss: 12x Desire D40 Lustr+ (incl $100 in lens options) @ $1600/ea = $19,200
Rear_Truss: 12x Desire D40 Vivid_. (incl $100 in lens options) @ $1400/ea = $16,800
So that means I have <$36,000 for the console. Hellooo EOS! What was I thinking before, suggesting the ~$2200 SFML?*


*I was thinking the SFML is probably the least expensive real (non-PC) console that is LED-aware, uses personalities, units can be called up by fixture number, has palettes, and so on.


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## Morte615 (Nov 19, 2011)

techieman33 said:


> That is a TON of console for 24 led pars. I know he said "unlimited" budget, but that is just over the top when there are so many consoles that are more than capable of controlling those lights at a fraction of the cost.


 
Yes the ION is probably too much for what he wants to do now, but never forget those magic words, "Prepare for the future!" While yes I agree that the ION is too much for him now I would suggest starting out small in the ETC family (I am an ETC fan boy and really love the EOS Family of consoles) that way if they want to expand later, they have a lot of flexibility with the least amount of items to purchase.

For the system as described (and we really need more information about the venue before making to many recommendations) I would actually recommend the Element (which can be found for around $5,000 online) to start with. Yes it's probably more console than is needed at first but don't forget the OP also said that they board would be used by people who don't know lighting. So the good thing about a board like this is that you can set it up with cue lists and effects that can run at a button push. That way all someone has to do is look at the monitor, find an effect they like for the part of the song they are in, then push GO. And the EOS software is easy to learn and program so you can make changes as wanted/needed or, once comfortable, start to program yourself.

Yes this board is pretty powerful, and yes he only has 24 LED lights (so far) but for the flexibility and ability to make operation simple so that "just" about anyone who walks in can use the system I think something along these lines are the way to go.


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## LXPlot (Nov 19, 2011)

derekleffew said:


> Hmmm, let's see:
> Front Truss: 12x Desire D40 Lustr+ (incl $100 in lens options) @ $1600/ea = $19,200
> Rear_Truss: 12x Desire D40 Vivid_. (incl $100 in lens options) @ $1400/ea = $16,800
> So that means I have <$36,000 for the console. Hellooo EOS! What was I thinking before, suggesting the ~$2200 SFML?*
> ...


 
Front Truss=12x Elation Opti Tri Par @ 500$ each is 6000$
Back Truss=12x Elation Opti Tri Par @ 500$ each is 6000$
=12,000$ total. Gern priced the Ion package at 15k. In this case, SFML is in fact what I'd suggest. In most cases, Price of fixtures should far outweigh price of control. But if, for some inexplicable reason, I have a gig with 100 PAR64s at 30$ a piece, you can bet that I want a used Express48/96 even if it costs more than 3000$.


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## derekleffew (Nov 19, 2011)

LXPlot said:


> ...But if, for some inexplicable reason, I have a gig with 100 PAR64s at 30$ a piece, you can bet that I want a used Express48/96 even if it costs more than 3000$.


Does the cost of the dimmers factor anywhere in your equation?
I've run a 12-pack from an Expression3; and a 48-way rack from my PocketConsole, so am not sure that means anything. (Also once had a grandMA running shoebox dimmers, but I know _that_ doesn't mean anything. )

Let's move away from this "console should cost this much" and return to helping the OP determine the most appropriate gear. Although, I think we're in a holding pattern until we are provided more information.


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## LXPlot (Nov 19, 2011)

derekleffew said:


> (Also once had a grandMA running shoebox dimmers, but I know _that_ doesn't mean anything. )


 
Please tell this story, it sounds like something that would be quite enjoyable to hear.


derekleffew said:


> Does the cost of the dimmers factor anywhere in your equation?


 
Whoops, complete forgot that...well, I still have much to learn.


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## josh88 (Nov 19, 2011)

Tex said:


> If you saw a show and thought it was good, would you change your opinion if you found out they used an ADJ lighting console?


 
yes it would change my opinion. I'd be more impressed after finding that out.


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## bishopthomas (Nov 19, 2011)

First of all, hello Postmaster, welcome to Control Booth. I'm originally from Jonesboro, so good to see a fellow Arkansan around these here parts.  If you can't neatly run/hide the cable to link the two trusses (I would think that would be a better option than two lines dropping down) then you'll want an opto splitter, as suggested. Since the operators are going to be novices I would suggest getting some kind of console that will allow you to preset scenes. I would do two zones in the front, two zones in the back (probably every other fixture addressed the same), save different colors to playbacks, and tell the operators to go nuts with it. Simple and effective, so easy even a club owner can do it.


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## MarshallPope (Nov 19, 2011)

It looks like you are in Camden; I just wanted to offer that if you need a little help with anything, I wouldn't mind coming down from Arkadelphia for the cost of gas or lunch. With this advice though, you should have it covered. It's really not as difficult as it seems once you get your head wrapped around it.


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## Chris15 (Nov 20, 2011)

Ok, so I'm a bit confused here...

At some point a cable loom needs to depart each truss to connect with electrical juices and data, yes?
And at some point or another those data runs need to converge on a point so they can get their data, yes?

So where's the big issue in looping data between trusses?
No one ever said that had to be done in a straight line aerially...
There's no issue if you wanted to use a hundred metres of cable between them the DMX won't care though a terminator might be more essential than normal.
So I'd just drop a second DMX line in the reverse direction off one of the trusses (probably the front one), route as needed and feed truss 2 that way.

Or have I missed something that renders this a dumb idea?


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## mstaylor (Nov 20, 2011)

Chris15 said:


> Ok, so I'm a bit confused here...
> 
> At some point a cable loom needs to depart each truss to connect with electrical juices and data, yes?
> And at some point or another those data runs need to converge on a point so they can get their data, yes?
> ...


You are not missing a thing, I suggested it in an earlier post. Run it up one tower, accross the truss, back down and then up the second. It seems simple enough to me and saves another link in the chain.


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## Chris15 (Nov 20, 2011)

Apologies, I thought I had read through everything but apparently I didn't read it very closely...


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## Les (Nov 20, 2011)

postmaster said:


> The problem with only one channel is the boss is very big on aesthetics and wants two separate trusses running the width of the stage and does NOT want a wire linking one truss to the next truss, like a dmx daisy chained from one truss to the next truss.


 
I think it's this that is causing the confusion.

The OP then said this:


postmaster said:


> The boss IS willing to pay almost anything for aesthetics, and the pockets are deep. The boss wants the truss and board because it looks good. I have told her that we can do this just as good without the truss ($8,000) or a light board, but she likes the looks. It is nice to have a boss that doesn't worry about budget.



Which has caused some members to begin recommending top-of-the-line consoles.


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## bishopthomas (Nov 20, 2011)

It's always funny to see people project their wishlists onto someone who can actually fulfill them, whether or not it is a good recommendation.


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## emac (Nov 20, 2011)

Welcome to the booth!


Now for your original question. I would recommend getting an ETC element, it has all the features that you are looking for and looks professional enough that your boss should be pleased. And as said before the learning curve is not that huge, ETC has great training resources available.

Now for the lights and truss; I agree with what was said before about putting motors on the truss. Not only does that allow you to refocus, add fixtures, and troubleshoot much easier, you can also then change the height of the trim to add effect to the show. For example for one show you might want the US truss farther down so that you can use some of the fixtures on that truss as audience blinders. But for a slower show you might not want that so you could just raise it back up.

I would look into using both recommendations of LED fixtures. ETC D40's for your DS front light truss and Chauvet PARs for your US backlight truss. That way you can have the 7x Color system for your front light (which will give you much better face light) and still not brake the bank completely. I would also sit down with your boss and discuss possibly putting some lights/effects on stage (as mentioned before). I would think about either some LED strips (think Coemar or Chauvet) or an array of LED pars or even some movers (though that opens up a whole other world of crazyness, and you might want to mount those on the truss), but I really think that you will find your self wanting effects on stage.

As for whether or not to get an Opto Splitter; I say just get it. Even if you end up running DMX between the two trusses you could still use the Opto to send an extra line to the stage and the trusses or something along those lines. With an Enttec Opto not being very expensive you might as well buy it when you can!

Also don't forget that you can daisy chain the power on most Chauvet fixtures as well as the ETC D40s (10 on a 15amp circuit, not sure how many Chauvet fixtures but it should be similar) that way you can run just one power run to each truss and keep your cabling really clean.


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## Esoteric (Nov 20, 2011)

Yeah, we are trying to get into the club/restaurant market more. We currently do a couple a year, but would love to do more.

For me the key in places like restaurants is to keep things neat and tidy and make sure it fits the aesthetics of the place.

I like software with touch screens in places like that. Just easier to use.

Mike


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## postmaster (Nov 21, 2011)

*THANKS!!!*

THANKS, THANKS, THANKS!!! for all the help. I was in a meeting all morning and did not have time to take a look. I will take a look this afternoon at all the suggestions and I know I will have additional questions. You don't know just how much I appreciate the help, really saving me.


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## postmaster (Nov 21, 2011)

*Stage Dimensions*

Here are the dimensions:

30ft wide x 15ft deep

We want to put the truss 15ft above stage height.

We have two 20 amp circuits, on for the front and one for the back.

This is an outdoor stage.

One of the things I have to keep in mind is that we have to have outdoor fixtures. I have done some research and they do make outdoor LED fixtures. We will bring the light board in when not having a show.

If anybody has any ideas on the truss height please comment. The stage dimensions are set in stone, literally.

Doug


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## gafftaper (Nov 21, 2011)

Wait do you already have this truss installed or do you need to buy it as well? 

Free standing truss, 30' wide, and outdoors is not something to take lightly. We had a lot of people die this summer due to outdoor truss collapses. 
Does it need to have a roof? 
Does it need to support speakers as well? 

Truss is by far the most critical and most dangerous part of your project. You need a real pro involved to make sure the truss is done correctly.


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## postmaster (Nov 21, 2011)

No, not purchased yet and we know how dangerous it can be. The owner of this place owns a fairly large commercial construction company (mostly large defense industry work) and has engineers and a huge fabrication plant. The only way they are able to build this thing at a cost no else could afford. I trust their engineers know how to design this thing. I am currently getting all the weights that this needs to support.

Not a traditional roof, they want to use outdoor sails.

Yes, it will also support 4 speakers.

They are doing the wind loads for the sails and all the weight loads for the equipment and designing for 1.5 times the total load. This project is way over what the average place could afford because they do everything "in house".
Doug


gafftaper said:


> Wait do you already have this truss installed or do you need to buy it as well?
> 
> Free standing truss, 30' wide, and outdoors is not something to take lightly. We had a lot of people die this summer due to outdoor truss collapses.
> Does it need to have a roof?
> ...


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## mstaylor (Nov 21, 2011)

Wow! You have introduced a slew of variables that makes this a scary endeaver. It's fine if they have inhouse engineers but you need an industry professional to look at it, and I mean look at it. That roof needs to be able to move up and down according to weather.


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## avkid (Nov 21, 2011)

postmaster said:


> No, not purchased yet and we know how dangerous it can be. The owner of this place owns a fairly large commercial construction company (mostly large defense industry work) and has engineers and a huge fabrication plant. The only way they are able to build this thing at a cost no else could afford. I trust their engineers know how to design this thing. I am currently getting all the weights that this needs to support.
> 
> Not a traditional roof, they want to use outdoor sails.
> 
> ...


 
There is no way it's cheaper to design, engineer, fabricate and certify in house than to buy a used system from somewhere else.


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## emac (Nov 21, 2011)

Not to mention the truss swinging in the weather


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## tprewitt (Nov 21, 2011)

Chauvet makes a Colorado line of LED that are IP 66 rated (outdoor) that work well. The price isn't bad either. I've install hundreds of the Colorado I & 3 with great success. I know the product line has changed some over the last year or so but think they are still available. 

PLASA developed a couple of ANSI standards that may be applicable, E1.21 - 2006 for temporary outdoor structures for entertainment and E1.2 - 2000 for truss used in entertainment applications. These will be important documents for the engineers and they may not know about them if they are not typically involved in the entertainment industry. They contain the wisdom of many people with many years of experience on how to engineer such items. Knowing next to nothing about the project, I can't say if the documents will apply or not, but it sounds like they may.

Codes in various areas differ and they may or may not be required by local code to comply with ANSI, but "the industry" strongly recommends they do. In the event of an accident, and clearly after this summer accidents do happen, not being compliant with an applicable standard could make a bad situation very very bad. 

The documents can be purchased from PLASA.org or direct from ANSI.


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## len (Nov 22, 2011)

postmaster said:


> No, not purchased yet and we know how dangerous it can be. The owner of this place owns a fairly large commercial construction company (mostly large defense industry work) and has engineers and a huge fabrication plant. The only way they are able to build this thing at a cost no else could afford. I trust their engineers know how to design this thing.
> Doug



They may know what they're doing, but that may expose the owners to insurance issues. If someone who is not certified in this type of build is not consulted, the insurance carrier may tell you they won't cover it no matter who designed and built it. It's a question the owners should consider.


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## milan (Nov 22, 2011)

*Re: Stage Dimensions*


postmaster said:


> Here are the dimensions:
> 
> 30ft wide x 15ft deep
> 
> ...


 
BTW: Good luck on your search... see if you can demo boards and lights before you buy. Plus, in addition to previous comments, there are also DMX relay packs that are wireless. You could set a transmitter at the board location and the DMX signal can go to each truss independently. All the signals will route as if you've wired it.


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## postmaster (Nov 22, 2011)

*Re: Stage Dimensions*

Thanks for the wireless tip, had no idea they had a wireless system.


milan said:


> BTW: Good luck on your search... see if you can demo boards and lights before you buy. Plus, in addition to previous comments, there are also DMX relay packs that are wireless. You could set a transmitter at the board location and the DMX signal can go to each truss independently. All the signals will route as if you've wired it.


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## gafftaper (Nov 22, 2011)

So now that we are getting a real sense of the scale of this project. I think it's VERY foolish to not have the assistance of a theater consultant and a rigging expert. I think most of us were thinking you were talking about hanging a few LED's in a small club. Nothing on this scale. 

The most dangerous theatrical situations we commonly see happen because someone thinks they know what they are doing and doesn't. It's amazing how many people fall to their death each year doing flying special effects that they "know are safe" because someone is a rock climbing expert... not a theatrical flight expert. Your boss may have a shop full of amazing engineers but if they aren't rigging experts they don't understand all the potential dangers. I suggest you contact Jay Glerum or Bill Sapsis immediately. They are THE two top rigging experts in the industry. They can either help you or get you in touch with someone in your area that can be trusted. 

Do you plan for touring acts being able use the space? If yes then you should think about only purchasing equipment that is standard in a touring rider. Much of what has been discussed so far would not be excepted by a concert tour.


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## postmaster (Nov 22, 2011)

Thanks Gafftaper,
I have told them I am not qualified for this thing. The venue only seats 100 people max and I don't think they need all the truss etc. I don't think we are going to be able to get any touring acts, might be wrong, but the place is small. The owners are going to pay the grand opening band $10,000 and have me tasked on finding one that "people have heard of". I told them no one that "people have heard of" play for $10,000 and we need to find a really good non-recording band. Really trying to explain to them the ins and out of this thing, and not making much headway.
Doug


gafftaper said:


> So now that we are getting a real sense of the scale of this project. I think it's VERY foolish to not have the assistance of a theater consultant and a rigging expert. I think most of us were thinking you were talking about hanging a few LED's in a small club. Nothing on this scale.
> 
> The most dangerous theatrical situations we commonly see happen because someone thinks they know what they are doing and doesn't. It's amazing how many people fall to their death each year doing flying special effects that they "know are safe" because someone is a rock climbing expert... not a theatrical flight expert. Your boss may have a shop full of amazing engineers but if they aren't rigging experts they don't understand all the potential dangers. I suggest you contact Jay Glerum or Bill Sapsis immediately. They are THE two top rigging experts in the industry. They can either help you or get you in touch with someone in your area that can be trusted.
> 
> Do you plan for touring acts being able use the space? If yes then you should think about only purchasing equipment that is standard in a touring rider. Much of what has been discussed so far would not be excepted by a concert tour.


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## len (Nov 22, 2011)

postmaster said:


> Thanks Gafftaper,
> I told them no one that "people have heard of" play for $10,000 and we need to find a really good non-recording band. Really trying to explain to them the ins and out of this thing, and not making much headway.
> Doug



It depends on who and what. Chuck Berry used to get $3k a night. You get a band who knows his set list. You provide PA and lighting. You do everything. He flies in, plugs in and rips through his set. After, he grabs his cash and is gone. And the last time I saw him, 2 - 3 years ago, he was still crushing it. 

I think KC and the Sunshine Band can be had for under $10K. Again, your PA, but they have a pretty big lighting rider, way bigger than your 24 LED par rig.

I'll bet you could get Tommy TuTone for $10K. Fact is, you could probably get a lot of "name" artists for $10K. Call a few talent agencies in a major city, like Chicago, Miami, LA, NYC, etc.


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## postmaster (Nov 22, 2011)

Thanks so much!! I have talked to a Memphis talent agency and one from Little Rock. They were giving me names like Black Oak Arkansas, a Journey cover band, and a few others no one has heard of for that kind of money.


len said:


> It depends on who and what. Chuck Berry used to get $3k a night. You get a band who knows his set list. You provide PA and lighting. You do everything. He flies in, plugs in and rips through his set. After, he grabs his cash and is gone. And the last time I saw him, 2 - 3 years ago, he was still crushing it.
> 
> I think KC and the Sunshine Band can be had for under $10K. Again, your PA, but they have a pretty big lighting rider, way bigger than your 24 LED par rig.
> 
> I'll bet you could get Tommy TuTone for $10K. Fact is, you could probably get a lot of "name" artists for $10K. Call a few talent agencies in a major city, like Chicago, Miami, LA, NYC, etc.


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## Morte615 (Nov 22, 2011)

I just sent the OP a private message but thought that others here could benefit, or shoot holes in, some of my suggestions so I will repost part of the message here.

I am intrigued about the design for the truss, have you considered doing square truss set up in an overhead square, with 4 square truss legs? This setup would give the look of a rock and roll stage while offering great support and many different levels of use. If you have a house band in that preforms just with the house system then you have it already hung. If you have touring shows in that bring their own lights (or you rent some for their show) then you have an infrastructure to handle said show. A similar setup to this, http://www.bridgat.com/files/singlerow_trusscircular_trussroof_truss.jpg this can even be setup with a removable cover (as seen) for the nice nights that you would like to be able to have a clear sky overhead! This is one of many different setups that I would be glad to discuss at length. Another thing to consider with the truss will be access. Do you have man lifts available (boom or mast)? Or would you design the system so the upper truss can be lowered. Even if the upper truss can be lowered I would still consider looking into a man lift as they will be extremely handy if you would like to hang anything on the support towers.

It would not be difficult to design a booth that could have weather proof covers for all the equipment. That way when the show is over, you can cover the equipment and not need to worry about moving it inside (and hoping that no one forgets to move it in!) 

Also the board I would recommend is the ETC Ion. This is a bit larger than what you may seem to need at first, but I feel this offers the most features for the cost as well as being used throughout the industry. I just did a show on Sunday at a local theater that the touring company used the same board for their show! And as stated before a programmer could program some simple effects for the board to get you started quickly, while you learn the system.

And before finishing this off I am going to ask if you are designing and installing the audio system as well as the lighting? This is something that should have just as much attention as the lighting system and should not be brushed over either.


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## mstaylor (Nov 22, 2011)

That is a Thomas or Tomcat type system that can go up and down. If it is going to get a roof then it must be able to come down for weather.


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## bishopthomas (Nov 22, 2011)

mstaylor said:


> That is a Thomas or Tomcat type system that can go up and down. If it is going to get a roof then it must be able to come down for weather.


 
Yes, definitely. Look into self climbing truss. You'll need motors for this, a lot are 3 phase. Do you have three phase service available? By the way, stay away from Black Oak. Not that much of a draw because they are terrible live. I mixed Jim Dandy solo once, one of the worst things I've ever heard. There are bands that draw for $10,000. I would stick with country.


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## mstaylor (Nov 22, 2011)

As far as acts, think old country or old R&B or Motown. They still draw but are inexpensive. Acts like Charley Daniels, Temptations, many others. KC and others are another avenue.


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## gafftaper (Nov 22, 2011)

I just turned on the bat signal for WhatRigger? and/or Mpowers (our two resident riggers) to weigh in on this. Postmaster, both of these guys are the real deal, they deal with truss and flying people and equipment every day.


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## mstaylor (Nov 22, 2011)

A self climbing rig from a stage truss company is the cheapest method in the longrun. They have the engineering already done and it is a proven system. It also solves your cable problem, you feed the whole truss and drop the cables behind the flown sound. It is far easier to call Tomas or Tomcat and tell them what you want to do and they will engineer it, build it and ship it. 
I deal with these roofs all year long, I have built tons of them. They are safe, sturdy and of a known quality. Plus when you are done with it for the year, you can take it apart in 2 hrs or less and store it.


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## postmaster (Nov 23, 2011)

Yes, we have 3 phase available, so that is something I will look into. No chance are we going to have Black Oak, not much of a chance for country, the owner doesn't like country.


bishopthomas said:


> Yes, definitely. Look into self climbing truss. You'll need motors for this, a lot are 3 phase. Do you have three phase service available? By the way, stay away from Black Oak. Not that much of a draw because they are terrible live. I mixed Jim Dandy solo once, one of the worst things I've ever heard. There are bands that draw for $10,000. I would stick with country.


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## Pie4Weebl (Nov 23, 2011)

hang on a second everyone freaking out about the truss, I get the feeling he is building an open aired building or gazebo type structure for this, and not some sort of temporary roof. Which would be totally safe for him to do, and pretty common.

Also for the people suggesting an Ion for "future expand ability" are you kidding? This stuff is going to get installed, and be there. Its a 100 seater in the middle of no where, I don't see Mac2Ks jumping into the rig anytime soon!


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## postmaster (Nov 23, 2011)

Pie4Weebl,
You're right, it is a permanent open air structure with a sail cloth semi-open roof not really designed to be weather proof, just weather resistant. No building really, just support poles for the roof and of course the truss system. The truss is permanently installed not portable. 


Pie4Weebl said:


> hang on a second everyone freaking out about the truss, I get the feeling he is building an open aired building or gazebo type structure for this, and not some sort of temporary roof. Which would be totally safe for him to do, and pretty common.
> 
> Also for the people suggesting an Ion for "future expand ability" are you kidding? This stuff is going to get installed, and be there. Its a 100 seater in the middle of no where, I don't see Mac2Ks jumping into the rig anytime soon!


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## postmaster (Nov 23, 2011)

*HUGE thank you*

I just wanted to give a HUGE thank you to everyone who has responded to this thread and all the help I have received. Wow, what great response. All of you have been a great help. Happy Turkey day, I am going out of town for the rest of the week, no computers allowed, so talk to you next week.
Doug


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## hobbsies (Nov 26, 2011)

JD said:


> Hummmm.... I would say that there are three little words that make even club lighting a heart stopper.....
> 
> "Set list change."
> 
> Nothing like a lead singer announcing they are about to do a number that you have nothing programed for, or have even heard of the song before! (We've all been there, and usually have some tricks up our selves, but it can be nerve wracking.)




For the last 3 years I've run a jazz concert using a rig designed for a theatrical show with almost no fixtures pointed at the stage where the band is playing. Pretty much show up an hour or 2 beforehand, pre-program some faders for the movers (this is on an express mind you), find some conventional fixtures that somewhat hit the stage, and then fly by the seat of my pants for the rest of the show. 

I've accidentally captured all channels and brought them to full, scared the **** out of the audience, and released them (woops!), also blacked out by accident once, had the movers reset and live move during a performance, among many other issues while trying to make the lighting perty. It usually ends up looking pretty cool and despite the occasional mistake, the producers are happy. They couldn't run a light board to save their lives.


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## MPowers (Nov 26, 2011)

I've been following this thread for a while and now I feel I should comment. 

The fact that the proposed new truss is apparently being designed, engineered and built by professional structural personnel is a good thing. 

The fact that it is being designed, engineered and built by people who are not professionals in the entertainment industry is frightening. 

The biggest potential problems here are two fold. 

First design. The 15' truss height mentioned by the OP seems at first glance to be a bit low for the size stage. A professional lighting designer or theatre consultant should be engaged to help with this determination. They would also be better equipped to advise on the position and location of support towers both left and right and up and down.

Second, the engineers may or may not be competent to judge forces and design factors needed for free standing outdoor structures, especially with wind sails and other roof structures. I would want to be sure they were aware of the Indiana and the ?Calgary? structure failures this last year. 

Keep us posted on the progress of this project.


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## Pie4Weebl (Nov 27, 2011)

Everyone has lost their minds!

Can no one comprehend the difference between this:



and this?


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## MPowers (Nov 27, 2011)

Pie4Weebl said:


> ....Can no one comprehend the difference......



The OP has stated that the $$ person likes the look of truss and later stated that they didn't want DMX cable running from truss to truss, giving the impression that there at least two, free standing trusses. He has also said it won't have a conventional roof. Even though it sounds like they are planning a permanent structure, it also sounds like it will be very similar in construction to stage truss. If the material is aluminum tube and the construction is similar in appearance to standard entertainment industry truss, then it will have many of the same potential issues in terms of stability. Until the OP provides us with a sketch or more specific description of the planned structure, there is room for concern.


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## len (Nov 28, 2011)

Pie4Weebl said:


> Everyone has lost their minds!
> 
> Can no one comprehend the difference between this:



Isn't that Slipknot's last stage?


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## Gern (Nov 29, 2011)

Tex said:


> So, you bought an ION for your personal use?


 No, I bought my Ion for work. I am a gig-to-gig professional programmer by trade; I feel there is a benefit to owning my own console. I feel having my own will make me more valuable. Maybe, maybe not. It went to work immediately on a TV show and is now on its 2nd season. When I bought my Ion, it’s use was decidedly NOT to be used for freebies. Even though covered by my insurance policy, I won’t take it out on just any gig. I have done free ‘personal’ lighting for friends family(using Magic Gadget Shadow-makers , clip lights, pars & lekos) and charities(using consoles & full rigs owned by the charity, or with rental companies being paid or donating the rig). The only freebie an Ion has done, I gladly went in on a moments notice to help a friend do a live show for a weekend. The vendor “threw in, no cost” an old console that my friend couldn’t run. I had 24 S4‘s, 4 movers, a dozen other DMX fixtures trucked from my shop, patched, wrung out & palletized in 2 hours. It worked out flawlessly, and everyone was pleased. It truly felt great to do a relatively easy gig(Theatrical stage show 88 cues) and have it go smooth with all happy.

I did make the decision that if I get a programming gig, and I cannot get compensated for the Ion, that alone would not stop me from taking the gig. Being a professional I need a back up plan so I bought an 2nd Ion. I like the new color too.


Tex said:


> Spending extra money for stuff you don't need isn't "cool".



OK, fine, I’m a hoarder. That’s a problem. Yet, ALL my DMX gear gets used every day I work and even at home, so that part isn’t hoarding. The rest of the shop is surely another story.


Tex said:


> There are no style points given for equipment brand. If you saw a show and thought it was good, would you change your opinion if you found out they used an ADJ lighting console?



My dad worked on the first SR-71 & put up Americas first spy Satellite, I was trained by him: “The sourness of poor quality long outlasts the sweetness of a ‘good deal’. 
So I appreciate quality products, is that soo wrong? lol. I try to not be materialistic, but If it is useful, I love it. I sold my Rolex my bro gave as a gift. Maybe it's worth it to Ted Turner, those Rolex's, but not to me! My bro was cool about it!
I will Wholeheartedly stand behind ETC, as they have stood behind me over the years and even kept my shows running when I’ve been at a loss of what to do to fix the problem



Tex said:


> If you saw a show and thought it was good, would you change your opinion if you found out they used an ADJ lighting console?




Heck yeah, my (you probably think prima donna tush) would be truly MORE impressed like the other member said!

I too PM'ed the OP:

Hi postmaster,
I want to make sure that you don't miss my message of care & concern that you understand my post suggesting an Ion.
I don't know you, but I give you full respect as I do all, so I don't want to mis-lead you. 
Reading your post it was most STRIKING to me that you have a chance to do a project where there is real funding. So often it seems I hear, " We don't have the (any) money, but we want ... (fill in the costly desire)"
So, YES, MOST certainly, my suggestion of a $10,000-$15,000 lighting console is 'over the top'!! There are plenty of less expensive( therefore less capable, IMO) console to do the task at hand. Making my Ion suggestion 'crazy' to most folks here on Control Booth. I would never have gone there if your post didn't mention what it did. I have not done price comparisons, but I was understanding good LED pars @ costing approx. $1,000 ea.. Waterproof might be more? Therefore, I felt your business will know this is a potentially expensive project. I feel the Ion can be programmed to have faders set-up with enough "looks" like cues, effects, groups, specials, etc. that a non educated programmer can run a show. The elo brand touch monitors (I use model 1928L, $750 ea.) make quick adjustments on the fly really nice. I don't know where you are located, but I'd think you could hire a programmer to come do the set up & train your personnel( a job I and many many people do for a living) and you'd be set to go. Also, when you have an expensive (Ion or other brand) you can get great insight & support from the folks here on CB. 
So, take my post with a grain of salt, please don't be offended thinking I was trying to do something wrong by you. I have no reason to think you feels that way, from your responses, but I saw the other members freaking out and want to reach out to you to be clear. I don't mean to come off as a jerk. Sometimes it happens & I really didn't mean to.
Someone said you don't get extra "style points" for brands. I won't argue that. I WILL say IMHO, "You do get GREAT customer service with ETC(makers of the Ion). ETC has REPEATEDLY gone above & beyond the norm to help, solve issues and make end users happy. It's not just a philosophy, it has truly saved my gigs thousands of dollars over the years!! ETC's 24/7 live phone support that is unmatched in the industry. 
My professional lighting career began in the 1980's doing International Arena Rock shows on very expensive, top of the line equipment, like Avo consoles costing >$80,000. To date my preferences for top of the line consoles still cost over $80,000. I was a firefighter on vacation in N.Z. when I got hooked up with a tour and taken for the rest of their run. They let me 'do the lights' for the opening band and I was hooked immediately.
I've been lighting professionally as a sole career ever since, working on Films, TV, commercials, live concerts etc. in Hollywood and I admit I usually get what gear I ask for. I love the 2 Ion consoles I own and use every day @ work(In my world I must have a back-up) and I plan on using them till I retire(die, lol). Unless I sell them to upgrade to the higher level consoles Gio or Eos. 
I wish you the best & I will gladly explain or answer any questions I can. Lucky for both of us finding Control Booth, as it is frequented by the people I respect the most in the Lighting industry. 
Gern 310-xxx-xxxx.
BTW. if you ever visit LA, I gladly bring guests to stage, & show them Hollywood.


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## postmaster (Nov 30, 2011)

I am still keeping up with this thread, but have not had any time after the holiday. Still trying to catch up! Thanks for all the help.
Doug


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## Morte615 (Nov 30, 2011)

Pie4Weebl said:


>


 
I would presume by the information in this thread that the OP is going with something similar to the first picture, over the second. Though clarification on that would be nice 

If that is what he is going with then the rigging aspects become simpler (not easy, just simpler) and come into something that those inside theaters see everyday. If that is the setup they are going with then I would recommend an US/DS setup and depending on final design possibly some pipe permanently installed on the legs of the structure to allow more light placement.


Gern said:


> I too PM'ed the OP:
> 
> Hi postmaster,
> I want to make sure that you don't miss my message of care & concern that you understand my post suggesting an Ion.
> ...



I agree with you, and even suggested the ION (or at least an express) for the OP myself. Though they may not be in a location that is expected to have many road shows, that should always be considered. And the ION is the perfect board to host just about any band and their own equipment (and it's on a lot of bands rider also!) Also I feel the room for expansion should be factored in from the beginning so that when they decide to add more (and it's a pretty good chance they will  ) they don't have to redo infrastructure.
As to your mention of cost, I have done the price comparison, and yes LED PARs that do what the OP is wanting cost upwards of $1,000 (especially if he wants the weather proof versions!) I do feel that it may be possible, depending on how the structure is built, to sufficiently protect the truss from the weather and bring the cost down significantly by using standard LED fixtures. But that is a decision for the OP and his bosses about if the trade off is worth the uncertainty. (I actually work for a large amusement park in the summer and have been told that some of our $600-800 lights are "disposable" and if they quit working that we will just replace them! though that's what you get with a LARGE budget entity)

But back to your post, I agree that if you are spending that much per light you should get a board that will allow you to use the lights to their full capabilities, while also being simple enough to use that someone who does not know the board intimately can use it to run a simple show. I know there are other brands and boards out there that can do this but I am an ETC fan-boy  though I think when you start getting to this level of control then the boards are pretty comparable in price.

And to the OP I am now caught up in the project and would like to see how it turns out! LOL (also I have sent you a new PM with some updated information, responding to your last PM to me)

And I also am glad that I found Control Booth! I was doing this work kinda on the fringe and gaining as much experience as I could for the last couple of years, it's great to have a place to come and discuss and share everything that I have learned throughout the years. While also learning more than I have in such a short time that I have been a member here!

Till next time, have a great day!


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## Kelite (Nov 30, 2011)

Hi Doug, 
I look forward to hearing more about this potential outdoor club atmosphere as do the others here at the CB. When it gets closer to reviewing outdoor rated LED fixtures I'd be happy to send an RGB and/or RGBAW for you to play with. 





(Would this venue happen to be on S. Adams Ave?)


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## postmaster (Nov 30, 2011)

Kelite,
Thanks, I will keep everyone informed. We are going to be looking at lights in about 60 days, near the end of February. 

The venue is at 133 W. Washington in the 1896 Old Post Office. The Post Office building is the indoor bar and fine dining restaurant with the stage and outdoor patio between the Post Office and the Sillman building. 

I will try to get some photos and post those. 
Doug


Kelite said:


> Hi Doug,
> I look forward to hearing more about this potential outdoor club atmosphere as do the others here at the CB. When it gets closer to reviewing outdoor rated LED fixtures I'd be happy to send an RGB and/or RGBAW for you to play with.
> 
> 
> ...


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## postmaster (Dec 7, 2011)

Thought I would give everybody an update on this project. 

They poured the stage yesterday and it looks great. All red brick facade with 20amps available on each corner (80 amps total), a single line for the dmx (owner decided to do a square truss and doesn't mind the dmx wire running from the back truss to the front truss) so we won't be needing a splitter. Have another 80 amps available for sound. Ran two 2" conducts to the mixing booth to carry the dmx and the audio snake. We have another 20 amps available at the booth. Used the advice from this thread and I hope I got everything right.

Going to be posting later about outdoor LED lights and looking forward to the advice on that one.
Exciting project. We are planning our first show for March 9.
Doug


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## chausman (Dec 7, 2011)

postmaster said:


> Going to be posting later about outdoor LED lights and looking forward to the advice on that one.
> Exciting project. We are planning our first show for March 9.
> Doug


 
So possibly something like this from Apollo might do what you want?


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## shiben (Dec 7, 2011)

MPowers said:


> The OP has stated that the $$ person likes the look of truss and later stated that they didn't want DMX cable running from truss to truss, giving the impression that there at least two, free standing trusses. He has also said it won't have a conventional roof. Even though it sounds like they are planning a permanent structure, it also sounds like it will be very similar in construction to stage truss. If the material is aluminum tube and the construction is similar in appearance to standard entertainment industry truss, then it will have many of the same potential issues in terms of stability. Until the OP provides us with a sketch or more specific description of the planned structure, there is room for concern.


 
I guess I got the impression they were gonna build a roof type thing, cover it in a sail instead of shingles, and hang truss from that. Im sure a tornado could knock down your standard picnic shelter, as could a hurricane, but I doubt any sort of portable staging system of any kind in any condition, up or down, would stand up to either of those either. Im also fairly sure you could engineer a picnic structure to hold a lot of mass on top of it, maybe make the uprights out of 4" square tube and fill with concrete? Or just use H columns... If they build buildings for the DoD, they can probably figure out how to build one you can hang some trusses from, and probably even one that can be wind resistant on some level.


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