# Attaching lights to the ceiling.



## ishboo (May 13, 2010)

I need to attach about 10-15 lights to a ceiling, it is that kind that has panels and tracks, typical retail store style ceiling. I found these scissor clamps here the only problem being that we are on a very limited budget and probably can't afford these. Are there any cheaper ways to attach lights to this kind of ceiling? I was thinking about booms because I may have access to those for free but other than that I don't have any ideas.


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## Footer (May 13, 2010)

Those little clamps are made for grips to easily attach SMALL fixtures to a ceiling for temporary lighting for a film shoot. They are not meant to be used around the general public. They are not meant to hold up any type of Leko or anything bigger then about 2lbs. 

The real issue is you never know how the ceiling is help up. You could bring the ceiling down by adding more weight. Dropped ceilings are really not meant to do this. Just because they make the clamp does not mean you should do it. 

I would advise that you go with some sort of ground support option such as booms, crank stands, vertical truss, etc.


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## ScaredOfHeightsLD (May 13, 2010)

I'll second Footer's reply. 
If you could give us a little more info about what you are trying to do, we might be able to give some more guidance.


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## BillESC (May 13, 2010)

First of all those T bar clips are way over priced.

For about 2-3 dollars you can get the same type with a threaded stud which will allow you to bolt your lamp in place.

Second, as long as you place the T bar clip directly under a support wire, you "should" be OK. When in doubt, add your own support wire.


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## mrb (May 13, 2010)

code wise you CANNOT hang anything from the ceiling grid. There are T bar clips which go up and over the track ith a hole at the top for an independant support wire to attach. Also, FYI cords may not be run above a drop ceiling or penetrate through the ceiling.


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## DuckJordan (May 13, 2010)

mrb said:


> code wise you CANNOT hang anything from the ceiling grid. There are T bar clips which go up and over the track ith a hole at the top for an independant support wire to attach. Also, FYI cords may not be run above a drop ceiling or penetrate through the ceiling.



unless they are in conduit or rated for such. in our district thats all we have is drop ceilings and they have conduit and cables that are rated for such above the ceiling. they also make special units that you can cut away and place in the drop ceilings for cabling.


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## mrb (May 14, 2010)

DuckJordan said:


> unless they are in conduit or rated for such. in our district thats all we have is drop ceilings and they have conduit and cables that are rated for such above the ceiling. they also make special units that you can cut away and place in the drop ceilings for cabling.



of course you can have conduit above a drop ceiling, but a cord cannot be run above a drop ceiling, and a cord cannot penetrate a drop ceiling. (this is the type of T bar ceiling in a retail store or office. there may be some special system in a theater)


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## Anvilx (May 14, 2010)

Check what the ceiling is hung from. Perhaps there are some nice beams...


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## ship (May 14, 2010)

Barbizon, Mole, B&H and many others supply the X-clip. Remember one Chicago run at one point to get some immediately which even led me to a un-marked production company somewhere on like the 200 block of Grand Ave. which turned out to be a video production company sleeper cell. No name on the door, just kind of there. If I remember correctly the baby spud attached to such clamps is 1/4-20 screw thread but I might be wrong - been a few years since I bought some.

Think what Bill is refering to is a Z-Clip attachment for ceiling track... If I remember correctly... bought some in the past and it's also a 1/4-20 stud based thing with normally some form of hook to hang a hanging household plant from it. Two versions of it, one that is like the above X-clip in a pivot that snaps in place, the other a frame that's thin one piece spring steel in snapping into place. 

None of the above to hang a Leko from if wise. The studio gear has it's uses for lighter say Q-lite wash light type fixtures or Inkies, the home center type gear one might find in either the electrical section or the gardening area... sure could temporarially hang an Inkie type fixture... but none something as above I would rely on for use in a lighting grid. I'm sure Juno has clips for such stuff also as sold for architectural installs. Such fixtures underhung from a T-Track ceiling panel grid is done in the industry be it architectural or movie lightin industry. Should one be doing it for the theater industry... probably not wise, and or ceiling lighting track isn't optimum for hanging normal stage lighting. 

Last time I worked on a theater that had ceiling tiles, we hung a grid slightly below it of pipe and or otherwise did booms cut thru the ceiling tile to hang from the snow truss ceiling. A question of hard points hung from. I think less about the cabling to it, and more about the use of something to hang the fixtures not designed for the extra loading on it as an immediate point. Sure if doing a video shoot and light gear there is various clips on the market to hang from a T-Track.


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## shiben (May 14, 2010)

How big do the instruments need to be (are they S4s or Birdies?), and is it an option to drop Sch. 40 pipe thru the ceiling, along with cabling (or is it ok to run that out using hooks or something? How permanent is the installation? If you cant drop a real pipe, your best off using the booms or some other form of lighting stand, IMHO.


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## ishboo (May 15, 2010)

Thanks for all the information and advice everyone. At this point I am thinking booms will be the best way to go for this installation. We are only using the space for 3 weeks so we can't really do any permanent or large scale modifications such as hanging a grid below the drop ceiling. 
What are the the requirements about running cables in a drop ceiling exactly? Some places say it is okay if they are not high voltage but they need to be clamped up one foot above the tiles and I have seen different things in other locations so could someone clarify that for me?
We'd be looking to run three of four 20 amp cables and then some dmx/audio etc. It would be nice to not run it along the floor but if by code we can't do it in the ceiling that looks like the only option.
Thanks again for everyone's help!


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## tjrobb (May 15, 2010)

Basically, anything temporary, which your case applies to, cannot be run above a ceiling if your area hasn't modified the NEC (for the US). Has to due with fire rating and ignition sources. Most / all temporary cables are not rated for fire resistance (and also aren't run in conduit). Maybe, in theory, you could run temporary cables in conduit above a ceiling, but that seems like overkill.


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## shiben (May 15, 2010)

tjrobb said:


> Basically, anything temporary, which your case applies to, cannot be run above a ceiling if your area hasn't modified the NEC (for the US). Has to due with fire rating and ignition sources. Most / all temporary cables are not rated for fire resistance (and also aren't run in conduit). Maybe, in theory, you could run temporary cables in conduit above a ceiling, but that seems like overkill.



Also would take a huge conduit to pull cables with connectors through there. Anyhow, I would guess that its generally a poor decision to run them over the grid, just run them on the floor and tape them down nicely.


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## midgetgreen11 (May 15, 2010)

ishboo said:


> It would be nice to not run it along the floor but if by code we can't do it in the ceiling that looks like the only option.



You're lucky you even have this. Local codes here prevent any cable (whether it be covered with carpet, taped, or cable troughs) from crossing a public walkway.


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## zuixro (May 15, 2010)

I've seen hooks that attach to a ceiling grid and hold cable. I don't know if they're legal or what they're rated for. They're clamps that have a wire loop below them that cable fits in to. We ran two 12/3 cables through them with plenty of room to spare.


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## journeymanjohn (May 16, 2010)

Those grid clips with the 1/4 x 20 x 3/4" threaded bolts, along with a mini (electrical conduit hanger) works great for temporary cable management. The minis come in sizes 1/2" to 6" I believe. I wouldn't run any soca or really heavy stuff on the grid, but for control cables or a few ext cords, they are great. They can be found at any electrical supply house, Lowes, Home Depot, etc.

Still, I would recomend when using a clip like this, ...make sure you attach to the grid runs that actually take the wieght. That would typically be the longer full runs of grid, and not the little 2' cross pieces used to complete the square grid.


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## mrb (May 16, 2010)

another thing worth mentioning: make sure you dont get the ceiling grid all scratched up. Alot of those clips (such as the erico caddy one with the 1/4-20 stuf) really scratch the T bar. Also be careful about getting tiles all dinged up.


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## Charc (May 16, 2010)

mrb said:


> code wise you CANNOT hang anything from the ceiling grid. There are T bar clips which go up and over the track ith a hole at the top for an independant support wire to attach. Also, FYI cords may not be run above a drop ceiling or penetrate through the ceiling.



Doesn't the type of cable that can be run in the area above a drop ceiling depend a lot on wether or not that space is plenum?


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## mrb (May 16, 2010)

Charc said:


> Doesn't the type of cable that can be run in the area above a drop ceiling depend a lot on wether or not that space is plenum?



nope. look at 400.8(5) and 400.8(2) for that matter...

400.8 Uses Not Permitted.
Unless specifically permitted in 400.7, flexible cords and cables shall not be used for the following: 
(1) As a substitute for the fixed wiring of a structure
(2) Where run through holes in walls, structural ceilings, suspended ceilings, dropped ceilings, or floors
(3) Where run through doorways, windows, or similar openings 
(4) Where attached to building surfaces 
Exception: Flexible cord and cable shall be permitted to be attached to building surfaces in accordance with the provisions of 368.8.
(5) Where concealed by walls, floors, or ceilings or located above suspended or dropped ceilings
(6) Where installed in raceways, except as otherwise permitted in this Code


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## shiben (May 17, 2010)

Charc said:


> Doesn't the type of cable that can be run in the area above a drop ceiling depend a lot on wether or not that space is plenum?



I think it has more to do with protecting firefighters from accidentally cutting a live cable with an axe or something (although I would imagine that an axe would take out a conduit thats not EMT as well...) and getting zapped. That and the insulation would possibly melt... anyhow, these requirements get to be a pain when you have to have some sort of provision for video trucks to get signal from cameras all over the place in an arena to the truck outside. Running thru 500'+ of cable trays and short pipes thru walls is horrible, I can tell you.


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## ship (May 17, 2010)

shiben said:


> I think it has more to do with protecting firefighters from accidentally cutting a live cable with an axe or something (although I would imagine that an axe would take out a conduit thats not EMT as well...) and getting zapped. That and the insulation would possibly melt... anyhow, these requirements get to be a pain when you have to have some sort of provision for video trucks to get signal from cameras all over the place in an arena to the truck outside. Running thru 500'+ of cable trays and short pipes thru walls is horrible, I can tell you.



Man... I'm way out of current code as I have seen all of this and done it over the years. But also I think that the above doesn't refer to DMX as temporary if of any help.


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