# Metal Saw Advice?



## SweetBennyFenton (Jan 21, 2010)

It seems that my shop has moved enough into metal work to warrant the purchase of a new metal saw. I have a cheap abrasive disk saw and it's driving me nuts. It's loud, inaccurate and the blade flexes into an angle when I'm cutting.

I was wondering if I could gather advice on what to replace it with. A smaller metal saw would be good, preferably under $800. It would need to do acurate miters, but I'm never going to cut more than pipe and 2" square stock on it, so it wouldn't have to be huge.

Are all abrasive saws as inaccurate as my old one, or are there good abrasive saws that can give me good miters? 

I was hoping that there existed a porta-band that I could mount into a miter table, but that doesn't seem to exist. All the mountable porta-bands I could find didn't do miters.

Anyone have a saw they really like?


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## Les (Jan 21, 2010)

I have a cheap Bosch that does good miters. Are you sure you are using the correct cutting wheel?


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## Van (Jan 21, 2010)

I did a quick google search for Cold Saw and came up with this. 
A Cold Saw is really the way to go fo quick accurate cuts in metal. Even a well tuned HVMC < horizontal Vertical Metal cutting > Band Saw, like the ones listed [URL='http://www.amazon.com/b?ie=UTF8&node=13400471"]here[/URL] will drift on you. A H/V band saw is much cheaper however and with adequate attention to maintenance it can be an invaluable tool in the shop. For a cost / Value ratio I think the Jet line of tools is a good place to start. Go ahead an pop for the liquid cooling / lubrication kit for whatever you get, it will save you blades and expand you materials range down the line. 

< links posted are examples and are in no way endorsements of any of the products, suppliers or retailers.>


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## Footer (Jan 21, 2010)

Abrasion saws are exact to about a 1/16 if you are good. Doing angle cuts exact with an abrasion saw is nearly impossible. 

In my metal shop I always need two tools. One is a carbide blade saw. The other is a portaband. If possible, the 3rd is a stationary bandsaw. 

This is my favorite carbide saw:
DEWALT DW872 : 14" (355mm) Multi-Cutter Saw
It makes cuts like butter. However, a new blade is 150 bucks. At my summer home I go through a blade about every other show. Each show chews through at least 150-200 sticks of steel. 



At my summer home I also have this... G4030 6-1/2" x 9 1/2" Metal-Cutting Bandsaw


I use it to make all of my angle cuts. In my experience, nothing destroys a blade faster then angle cuts. They are not exact and tend to warp the blade. I only do 90deg cuts on my chop saw and this does everything else. It does take some TLC to keep it cutting correctly, but it makes clean cuts for me. 

Milwaukee 6232-6 Portable Band Saw


That tool is pretty much a requirement when working in steel. If you have one, you will never use a sawzall with a "torch" blade again. It pretty much never leaves my table.


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## SweetBennyFenton (Jan 21, 2010)

Les... what kind of Bosch? Something like This?

14" Benchtop Abrasive Cutoff Machine/ Model: 3814

(I'm not as fancy with the liks as Van is)

I am really thinking of a H/V band saw. It would add some great versatility to my shop.


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## SweetBennyFenton (Jan 21, 2010)

Oh, and Footer. I was looking at the Dewalt Multi-cutter. Am I right that you would not recommend it for miter cuts? How is it for accuracy on angled cuts?


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## Les (Jan 21, 2010)

SweetBennyFenton said:


> Les... what kind of Bosch? Something like This?
> 
> 14" Benchtop Abrasive Cutoff Machine/ Model: 3814
> 
> ...



That's the one. When I say "pretty good", what I really mean is "within reason". The cuts had to be good, but any gaps/inconsistencies were taken care of when we welded the joints (this was a non-theatre project -- building handrails from 1.5" square tubing). This was several years ago, and I'm sure there were plenty of gaps to fill, but they couldn't have been too bad, otherwise my dad would have returned the tool (he bought it specifically for this project, and now I have it because he didn't use it anymore). 

My dad is a pipe fitter/welder (welds on +20" high pressure live gas lines for a living) and he has the portaband pictured above. He loves the thing.


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## Traitor800 (Jan 21, 2010)

The Multi Cut saws do excellent miters, they're almost as accurate as a miter saw for wood. However I do not recommend cutting anything except tubbing or pipe with them. angle or flat bar tends to to destroy the teeth faster. And while the blades are expensive (we paid about $90 for a new one last summer) since they are carbide they can be sharpened by anyone that sharpens table saw blades so if you can find someone around you who sharpens blades then you can get a little more life out of one of the blades. Try checking out the local hardware stores they can usually point you in the right direction for a blade sharpener.


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## Anvilx (Jan 21, 2010)

Just out of curiosity:
What is the difference between the carbide metal saw blade you're referring to as appose to a standard carbide blade like you would find in a table or miter saw (wood blade)? Is it the pitch of the teeth? Can these blades have new carbides soldered on like you would table or miter saw blade? Is having new carbides installed economical?


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## derekleffew (Jan 21, 2010)

Carbide, not carbine.


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## Anvilx (Jan 21, 2010)

derekleffew said:


> Carbide, not carbine.



Wow what a failure, I even read over it twice before posting. 

Wish spell check would find similar sounding words used in the wrong context.

[-]Thanks for caching that[/-]
Thanks for catching that!!


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## seanandkate (Jan 21, 2010)

derekleffew said:


> Carbide, not carbine.



Like an old teacher of mine used to say:
"Both useful, but hardly interchangeable."


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## FatherMurphy (Jan 21, 2010)

My hobby is working on steam tractors, so I'm often cutting and threading piping. I bought a portaband a few years back, and my only complaint is that I didn't get it sooner. The 'table' attachments I have seen have never looked like they'd be useful in a sceneshop setting, though - it's a tool that's best for freehand work.

Any saw can drift some, it all depends on what you're cutting, how you're cutting it, and what shape your blade and clamp are in. If you're really feeling the need to be precise, cut your workpiece a tad long, and use a grinder (or Bridgeport mill) to shave it down to a finish length.

If you're willing to possibly do some rebuilding and adjusting, you might consider looking for used saws. Both the h/v bandsaws and chop saws are common enough tools that you should be able to find decent ones in your local used market.


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## Footer (Jan 21, 2010)

SweetBennyFenton said:


> Oh, and Footer. I was looking at the Dewalt Multi-cutter. Am I right that you would not recommend it for miter cuts? How is it for accuracy on angled cuts?



It will do miter cuts. If you set the tool up right it will do it. However, I have lost more teeth in my blade this way then I care to count. Because of the actual teeth on the blade, if the piece slides just a bit in the clamp it can jam the saw. I just about killed out of our carps last summer because he cut a bunch of stuff for a home project and screwed up my blade badly because he did not clamp the pieces well. 

In my shop, if we make one angle cut we make 50. It is just faster and more accurate to chuck them in the bandsaw. I have made plenty of angle cuts with the saw. However, you do run the risk of wrecking your blade faster.


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## last125eagle (Jan 21, 2010)

We use a a standard miter saw ( old one) and a carbide Milwaukee metal blade at the welding shop I work at. We also throw is in a worm gear driven hand saw. The blades are 65 a pop though. They sell a cheaper saw blade for them but they do not seem to hold up at all. The blades make cuts that are good enough for welding.

My favorite though for all things metal cutting would be the old work horse do all band saw. * swoons* It cuts, it welds its own blades, and it is the lovely old do all olive drab coloring. This also makes very precise cuts and with the proper wax blades can last a long time. If not set up properly though the cuts can be less than precise. 

Also if you need to go really precise you can go for an old Bridgeport. It may not be machinist precise but you never know there are a lot out there to be had as of late. I will do almost everything you want to do with metal and wood and more. You can use it to clean up bad or rough cuts from other things. You can face things flat, at angles cut slots, sky's the limit with the proper vise and hold downs.


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## n1ghtmar3 (Jan 22, 2010)

I have the Jet Version of the Horizontal band saw footer posted it is great You can put several sticks in at a time has its own coolant system. It was well worth the money. The cold cut saws have always treated me good to. I have never had very good luck with the abrasive saws and they are load. With our horizontal band it has its on speed control for the rate it drops and there is very little grinding to do to clean up the edge of the cut.


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## SweetBennyFenton (Jan 22, 2010)

Alright... Thanks for the advice everyone!

I think I'm going to go with The Jet H/V band saw. 
JET Tools - HVBS-56M, 5" x 6" Capacity Bandsaw, 1/2 HP, 1Ph, 115/230V

That should leave me with enough money at the end of the season to buy a nice porta-band as well.

Woo... I love upgrading my shop.


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## Van (Jan 22, 2010)

SweetBennyFenton said:


> Alright... Thanks for the advice everyone!
> 
> I think I'm going to go with The Jet H/V band saw.
> JET Tools - HVBS-56M, 5" x 6" Capacity Bandsaw, 1/2 HP, 1Ph, 115/230V
> ...


 Check out Hall Tool and supply, Acme Tool and supply, Chas Day Co. and Portland Contractors supply before you buy it anywhere. Hall and Acme are over on Grand and MLK respectivly, Contractors is on SE 9 or 10th, and Chas Day is just south of stark on 11th I think.


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## SweetBennyFenton (Jan 22, 2010)

Van said:


> Check out Hall Tool and supply, Acme Tool and supply, Chas Day Co. and Portland Contractors supply before you buy it anywhere. Hall and Acme are over on Grand and MLK respectivly, Contractors is on SE 9 or 10th, and Chas Day is just south of stark on 11th I think.



Thanks yet again Van.


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## Dionysus (Jan 23, 2010)

I love using cold-cut saws


Pours coolant over what you are cutting, the blade turns much slower, no sparks and less flying debris (and a LOT QUIETER).
My college had a nice cold-cut and a couple multi-cutter saws (with a stock of various blades). Very nice. The cold cut is expensive, but in my opinion if I was to put together a scene shop working with metal I'd buy a cold cut no questions asked.

I also had a good relationship with a local steel supplier and a tool-and-die shop who both let me use their cold-cuts occasionally. Hey the tool-and-die shop waved most of their fees and their min shop fee for me.

I installed all the machinery at the tool-and-die place, including their computerized lathes, auto-feeding cold-cut saw and such. Very nice equipment that would give people in a scene shop wet-dreams.


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## SweetBennyFenton (Jan 25, 2010)

Dionysus said:


> I love using cold-cut saws
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I do love the cold cut saws. Worked with one for a couple of summers. Maybe some day we will work with enough steel to warrent that, but not yet.

Mmmmm though, it just cutts like butter.


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## ship (Jan 26, 2010)

SweetBennyFenton said:


> I do love the cold cut saws. Worked with one for a couple of summers. Maybe some day we will work with enough steel to warrent that, but not yet.
> 
> Mmmmm though, it just cutts like butter.



Out of college that was for nine months my career' - between it, the drill pess and in cleaning up other people's welds. Loved the B-Weld as it was called though I have no idea as to why. My curren shop has one and I recently sent one of my assistants over to it to cut some 1/8x3/4" stock for use as spreader plates for U-Bolts. He blamed the tool for his +/- 1/16" tolerance that didn't help the show much in needing them at the last minute. This given even 1/16" tolerance over drilled holes. Took a bit time and I should have supervised him better, this given I was raised on such a cold saw and my own boss would line up at random at times four pieces I cut together and unless they were within 1/16" of the overall combined length, I would have to re-cut them. I was less than compassionate into my helper's blaiming the tool for his lack of ability in finding a way to make the tool accurate. Beyond that... believe me my boss was really really pissed with me more than once when he went to cut some steel with it but I had an aluminum blade in it and forgot to change the tag saying what blade was in it. The current shop has a speed change they use verses blade change. Decent enough I suppose. They also don't have a good stop table set up very well which is absolutely necessary if you want to be accurate. The stop rod for such a thing is crap.

Such a tool is perhaps 1.5 times your budget and unless you have room for it's proper chop saw stop table needs, probably more than you need. Never been impressed with band saws for cutting especially larger lengths of steel - this even if liquid cooled. Porta Band, pipe cutter not really impressed ether - this granted it was in the ceiling of a theater and such a ceiling was lit with compact fluorescents. Meaning every time you powered up something big the lamps flickered and went out until done cutting in the dark. PortaBand was nice on the other hand but I don't remember it overly accurate.

Super Sawzall just as accurate in my impression dependant on the user and accuracy, though the porta band has a longer blade that stays cooler. Got this techinque of locking what I need to cut into a bench vise and cutting along the jaws of the vise which gives at least for smaller stock very accurate cuts.

Used some abrasive chop saws over the years, if accurate in set up I think they are accurate enough. Build a stop table for them. Different blades one can buy for them in grit perhaps in thickness. Never noticed much of a wobble or bend in cut as opposed to that of a band saw that can go way off in cut. Noisy yes, accurate and good cut I think also yes if set up right and the proper blade.

Saw someoe cutting aluminum on a table saw today with a fairly normal carbide wood or perhaps more finish blade. They also do it with the chop saw though also with not the blades they chop wood with for accuracy I hope. Depends on what you are cutting in also a vertical band saw able to cut steel or aluminum on need at times. Also used the band saw after college.


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## MPowers (Jan 26, 2010)

We use the DeWalt Saw and as a commercial rigging installer, it is invalubule. The blades are, as said, about $140-$155 but if you cut carefully and don't "chop" or rush into cuts on thin or angle stock, they last through many sharpenings. We have a local shop that sharpens them for $19. They do great angle or miter cuts, but only as "great" as the operator as there are no pre-set stops. You have to set each angle up your self. In fact the saw cuts so well you can zing through thin stock and that is the biggest mistake. You can cut so fast that the thinner stock catches between the teeth and knocks the tips off. This makes sharpening more expensive for each tooth damaged. When we switched from abrasive to the DeWalt our blades costs dropped 30%, labor for cutting dropped 80% because the cuts are so accurate, no burrs to have to file or grind off and the material is cool to the touch as soon as the cut is finished. Oh, yeah, no shower of sparks!

Michael Powers, Project Manager, ETCP Certified Rigger-Theatre
Central Lighting & Equipment, Des Moines, Iowa.


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## gafftaper (Jan 28, 2010)

I've got one of these Makita metal cutting saws. I'm not a metal shop guy, I just use it for cutting Unistrut. It's really quick but sends sparks and debris flying EVERYWHERE. It's definitely a tool to take safety VERY seriously with. I use the full face shield, gloves, and put on something with long sleeves if possible when using it. I'm actually a little afraid to do miter cuts with it.


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## Footer (Jan 28, 2010)

gafftaper said:


> I've got one of these Makita metal cutting saws. I'm not a metal shop guy, I just use it for cutting Unistrut. It's really quick but sends sparks and debris flying EVERYWHERE. It's definitely a tool to take safety VERY seriously with. I use the full face shield, gloves, and put on something with long sleeves if possible when using it. I'm actually a little afraid to do miter cuts with it.



Abrasion saws do that. They are load, they throw sparks everywhere, and when a blade flys apart you don't want to be around. Abrasions saws cut by grinding away material, producing a lot of heat and metal dust. The cabide saws cut by tearing material. They also produce heat, but nothing on the scale of an abrasion saw. The material that is cut away becomes something similar to saw dust. It gets stuck in your hair, clothes, and shoes. Can't tell you how many times I have been in bed at night picking little metal curly cues out of my hair.


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## epimetheus (Jan 28, 2010)

Footer said:


> Abrasion saws do that. They are load, they throw sparks everywhere, and when a blade flys apart you don't want to be around. Abrasions saws cut by grinding away material, producing a lot of heat and metal dust. The cabide saws cut by tearing material. They also produce heat, but nothing on the scale of an abrasion saw. The material that is cut away becomes something similar to saw dust. It gets stuck in your hair, clothes, and shoes. Can't tell you how many times I have been in bed at night picking little metal curly cues out of my hair.



MrsFooter must love that...


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## ship (Feb 1, 2010)

epimetheus said:


> MrsFooter must love that...



And one wonders why in the 20's thru 40's or beyond there was a basement door to houses with a shower near that door. This in an unfinished basement near a washing machine. MRs Ship at least just has me take a shower when done for the night before bed.
Love the Skil Saw Worm drive with an abrasive blade and 12" x 1/4" thick speed square... like butter for a good cutting job beyond the Sawzall with bench vise top to guide for the quick and easy. Other shop across the parking lot during winter or rain storms has the gear but rule of the day is if a quick cut and I can get away with it in cutting before the Shop Manager heard the noise and made his way over to this location where fabrication noise was made, its all good or fair game. Be really nice to have metal cutting gear in my electrical fabrication area, but we are not supposted to be making noise in fabricating electerical gear. Anyway above the above, change blades back and forth and the Skill Saw worm drive with the proper blade is also a good steel cutting tool not mentioned. A bit more harsh on accuracy but given a good speed square... not bad.


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## MPowers (Feb 1, 2010)

Gafftaper

If you are getting sparks and debris from your toothed Makita saw, you are using the blade far past the time when it should be sharpened. 

Michael Powers, Project Manager, ETCP Certified Rigger-Theatre, 
Central Lighting & Equipment Inc., Des Moines, Iowa,


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