# Doors zip tied shut



## StradivariusBone

Quick question, I did some homework, but I couldn't find any threads specific on my particular situation. 

Let's say a large, publicly accessible building has a large room in which they hold meetings and events that's surrounded by a hallway and has no direct exits to the outside (you have to go out of the room, and then out into the hallway/vestibule areas, then outside). 

This room does not have any locks the 4-5 double doors, but there are offices on the back of it that do lock and are all single-door. Let's also say, someone found a reason to need the room secure overnight (no more than 12 hours), since if any exterior door is open, the room itself is wide open because the double doors don't lock. 

Let's finally say, the solution to this problem was to zip tie every double door shut, and lock the office doors that lead into the larger room. 

Would I be right to be upset about this being a hazard, even though the room (not the whole building) is unoccupied? Because I was/am. Just checking to make sure that I'm not crazy.


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## chausman

I don't know the code, but I'd say that is a very bad thing. You're blocking (presumably) fire exits.


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## josh88

Think of it this way, what if somebody cut open one door, or managed to find their way into the locked off area. Then there was a fire blocking the way they got in, now they have no way of escaping the fire. Don't do it.


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## MNicolai

You're correct to be upset.

First, are you certain that these doors do not have locking mechanisms? It's unusual, even in public spaces, for exterior doors to not have locking mechanisms, even if they are not used routinely.

The reason for not tying these doors shut is that generally doors in egress paths lock in one direction (someone cannot open from outside) but maintain their ability to freely be opened outward in an emergency situation (exiting the building during a fire). This is an acceptable way of locking a building because while someone can't open the door from outside, the door can still readily be opened from inside without unlocking it.

What zip ties would do is obstruct the doors' motion in both directions. Both entrance into the building is obstructed, as well as egress out of. This is dangerous, even for a temporary application.

My recommendation is to have someone stay on-site and babysit for security. I've worked art festivals held outdoors where the canopy tents are closed up each night, and then we'd hire a couple off-duty sheriff's deputies to walk the grounds throughout the night. I also believe we took out some ginormous insurance policy for the duration of the festivals (just in case). We've even done this for indoor events where the building can be locked down, generally when there are priceless works of arts on the premises.

Your application may not require someone armed with a taser and a gun, but it would at least need to be someone (or a couple someones spread across two shifts) you could trust who would not fall asleep on the job.


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## StradivariusBone

They aren't exterior doors, but they are considered fire escape, the building's design is a little strange. It's a big rectangle with a kitchen, dining room, classrooms and offices on the exterior wall, at each corner are exits. Interior to that is a hallway, and then at the very center of the building is the large event/meeting room. The doors to the exterior lock, but the doors to the event room do not, which I agree is really odd. Especially when you consider that the access to the control booth inside this building has completely unrestricted access. 

There are multiple vendors who set up their wares overnight for a big sale tomorrow and the fear was that some of their sale items would be tampered with. This has happened in the past so it is a justified claim, but I couldn't rationalize saving arts and crafts in the name of someone's life. I was concerned that I might have been a bit overdramatic, but working in a theatre really makes me feel the responsibility of watching out for these situations more and more. 

This building is a part-time job for me and after explaining my concerns to my boss, who agreed with me, we are going to pursue a better way to handle things in the future (my goal is that we install locks with proper panic bars). The site has had a adversarial relationship with their AHJ in the past, but the staff all recently took fire safety training, which specifically included crowd management during evacuations. I'm pretty confident we can come to a safe and universally accepted conclusion, it just scared the heck out of me walking in today and seeing that. 

Thanks for the insight, I just wanted to make sure I wasn't overreacting.


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## gafftaper

The best thing to do is call the AHJ and ask for a suggested solution. To me this seems like a good way to break the ice and show the AHJ you want to do things the right way. Stroking the AHJ's ego is never a bad thing. 

Also it seems REALLY unlikely that someone broke in the building and tampered with the arts and crafts in the middle of the night when no staff was there. It's far more likely that it happened during your setup time or morning of the event pre-show time in which case no amount of zip ties or overnight watchmen will help. I say staff the room a little better during these lull times before the event is officially open when some vendors are hanging around and you'll be fine.


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## RickR

If a door has an EXIT sign, do not block it.


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## techietx

I believe the answer is short and simple, if that area is part of an evacuation plan for any other part of the building... the answer is no you can't do it. If folks aren't listening to you telling them this is unsafe, a quick call to the fire marshal will solve that.

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## BillConnerFASTC

The means of egress - what the building and fire codes call the way out of a building - are not always simple. Without a plan, I couldn't begin to answer with any confidence. Can you dead bolt a room closed that is not occupied? Yes - but you may be required to post signs that say the door has to be unlocked when occupied. I just can't picture. Not OK to obstruct all of the means of egress (zip ties would be obstruction) if any part of the room is occupied or any part of the offices that egress through the room (?) is occupied. Can you post a drawing, even a napkin sketch?


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## StradivariusBone

The offices would theoretically egress into the hallway, but one office connects to a green room/library of sorts (which itself has two doors to the main hallway). Through the green room, you can access doors that have passages to either side of the stage (SR passage also has access to the amp room). There are hallways all around the large event room that exit to the outside at the corners. 

It's a confusing floorplan, but my concern was that they did not secure all entrances with zip ties, some were still just simply locked. The hazard would come from someone unfamiliar with this setup wandering in from the office area into the main hall and becoming trapped in the event that a fire were to break out. 

I will try to post a basic diagram later, but I must reiterate that I'm coming from a point of understanding so I can make better recommendations to them in the future. I'm not looking at this from the angle of 'rubbing someone's nose in it' or trying to be manipulative with the AHJ (whom many at this site have a terse relationship with for one reason or another). I'm not carrying animosity or anger of any sort. All I know for sure is that when I saw this, my gut instincts told me that it was unnecessarily unsafe. 

My solution (especially from a security point) is to push for the installation of door locks with panic bars that meet code. If the need to secure the room is that great, then I think it's money well spent. I'm trying to gather as much information on the subject before making suggestions.


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## JChenault

BillConnerASTC said:


> The means of egress - what the building and fire codes call the way out of a building - are not always simple. Without a plan, I couldn't begin to answer with any confidence. Can you dead bolt a room closed that is not occupied? Yes - but you may be required to post signs that say the door has to be unlocked when occupied. I just can't picture. Not OK to obstruct all of the means of egress (zip ties would be obstruction) if any part of the room is occupied or any part of the offices that egress through the room (?) is occupied. Can you post a drawing, even a napkin sketch?



Bill
Just curious - is it safe to assume that any door(s) needed for egress will have an "Exit" sign associated with them? IE could I lock / block any door that is not indicated as an Exit?? Is it a requirement that all means of egress be marked with signs?


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## BillConnerFASTC

Gosh you ask the hard ones. Wish I could give you a simple yes or no. Just reviewed this as a result of an unfavorable review on a new building where the AHJ asked for illuminated exit signs on the catwalks - like a bunch of them. From the 2006 IBC (still widely used because the economy has prevented many jurisdictions from updating to 2009 or 2012)

1011.1 Where required. Exits and exit access doors shall be
marked by an approved exit sign readily visible from any direction
of egress travel. Access to exits shall be marked by readily
visible exit signs in cases where the exit or the path of egress
travel is not immediately visible to the occupants. Exit sign
placement shall be such that no point in a corridor is more than
100 feet (30 480 mm)or the listed viewing distance for the sign,
whichever is less, from the nearest visible exit sign.
Exceptions:
1. Exit signs are not required in rooms or areas that
require only one exit or exit access.
2. Main exterior exit doors or gates that are obviously
and clearly identifiable as exits need not have exit
signs where approved by the building official.
3. Exit signs are not required in occupancies in Group U
and individual sleeping units or dwelling units in
Group R-1, R-2 or R-3.
4. Exit signs are not required in sleeping areas in occupancies
in Group I-3.
5. In occupancies in Groups A-4 and A-5, exit signs are
not required on the seating side of vomitories or openings
into seating areas where exit signs are provided
in the concourse that are readily apparent from the
vomitories. Egress lighting is provided to identify
each vomitory or opening within the seating area in an
emergency.

So generally, always required over a door on the way out, with exception one probably being the most common exception this group would use. For instance, a control room or office with just one door our does not need a sign. As stage, which is always required to have two separate means of egress - will have signs for each. My argument for the catwalk was that they were served by a single stair - one way out - and like U occupancies - utility - it was restricted access and the occupants are familiar with the space.


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## marmer

What's the occupancy of the big center room? I thought anything big enough to require multiple exits had to have latching doors, too. If they do latch, then adding locks and panic hardware hopefully wouldn't be too hard. And, while you can appeal to the AHJ to get a ruling, the truth is that if you and your boss aren't comfortable with it, that's a good enough reason to say no.


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## BillConnerFASTC

Requirements for latching doors has to do with a fire rated door (and wall). The arrangement - bast as I can fathom it - might not require fire rated separation.

I don't know but would guess that exit hardware - what a panic bar is - would run around $500/leaf installed. The bigger problem is if the doors are fire rated, adding hardware is tricky as the hardware must have been tested with the actual door. Technically, just changing a hinge or push plate can be quite difficult.

If the wall and openings between this room and the corridor is not rated, deadbolts and signage is probably the simplest way to go.

I'm still struggling with this arrangement and the corridor around the room. Are there or were there movable partitions to divide the large space into multiple smaller spaces?


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## marmer

Yeah, exactly. In my building any room big enough to hold several vendor tables is going to have fire rated walls and doors. And besides, everyone who's ever been in a public school knows you don't lock a fire door with zip ties, you do it with a chain and lock! ;-) Just kidding, of course, but we've all seen it.


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## StradivariusBone

So here's a very rough guide of the floorplan. The highlighted doors are ones that were zip-tied. This did include the kitchen, though there is direct egress in the cooking area as well as the dining area inside there. There is a door to the control booth from the hallway (however, it's not separated from the main room by anything more than a half wall). The door to the booth does have a dead bolt on it that remains locked at all times, except when the booth is occupied. The doors leading into the big space in the middle all are fire doors, but there are no locking mechanisms attached. They are push open doors with automatic closers. Capacity for this room is around 320-350 (I don't remember the exact number). 

The offices and classrooms all have separate rooms within them. The room I didn't label behind SR is the green room library. None of the doors behind the stage had zip ties, but all are single doors that lock. The hallways all have egress points at each corner. This building does connect to another two-story building behind it (see top left).

So here's the big question- how to make this room secure without breaching fire code and spending the least amount of money. By spending the least amount of money I don't imply that I'm hoping to "go cheap", but I've seen too many instances of people throwing money at a problem, making more problems and then throwing more money until it goes away. 

Again, not trying to start a fight with anyone here or get anyone into trouble. I'm trying to avoid giving away the identity of the venue for this reason, but at this point I do feel I should let you know that it is a house of worship. In any event, I'm trying to find an equitable and most importantly safe solution. 

I just saw Bill's question about the partitions- No, there are none. The floorplan inside the large room is open, they set up chairs and tables as needed.


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## marmer

I'll be interested to see what Bill says. It seems to me that the best solution is to replace all the fire door sets with lockable fire door sets. I think that securing the fire doors as described is probably a code violation. I guess the architect or engineer didn't think that space would ever have to be secured. However, I wonder if there is some kind of restricted access exception when you can be certain there is no one inside -- maybe for construction situations or something.


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## MarshallPope

Just out of curiosity, would it make any difference (likely not code-wise, but maybe AHJ) if there were dykes tied to each zip tie? I know that I've seen doors that had to be tied shut mid-performance (broken latch on a fire escape door that kept blowing open) and we kept crew standing by with knives in case of emergency, so I wonder if providing a way to escape might be a safer route in the interim until something better could be implemented.


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## StradivariusBone

> I guess the architect or engineer didn't think that space would ever have to be secured.



This particular building was constructed in the 90's, so it's not terribly old. It was originally a traditional worship building prior to expansion when it became the modern worship/multi-purpose room. I'm willing to bet that at the time they didn't see anything being placed in there that would be worth installing locking doors. If Bill is correct in that these doors are $500+, then that would've saved them a couple thousand off building costs. The interesting thing is that the newer sanctuary does have locking doors to the main hall with the proper panic bar hardware. 


> Just out of curiosity, would it make any difference (likely not code-wise, but maybe AHJ) if there were dykes tied to each zip tie?



In this particular case it would have not been possible for a person inside to cut the zip-ties in that manner. The only way I could think to escape from the way these were set up is brute force and I don't know if it would be possible for just anyone to do it. The zip-ties were not your run of the mill 1/4" wide ties, they were wider and thicker.


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## marmer

I would have guessed that it was originally the sanctuary. I think there's a perception about everyone being welcome and about no one being excluded that makes some churches uncomfortable with locks on sanctuary doors. If you can get in the building you can get in the sanctuary. I wonder if non-locking fire doors are actually a special order item?


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## zmb

marmer said:


> I would have guessed that it was originally the sanctuary. I think there's a perception about everyone being welcome and about no one being excluded that makes some churches uncomfortable with locks on sanctuary doors. If you can get in the building you can get in the sanctuary. I wonder if non-locking fire doors are actually a special order item?



There should be non-locking fire doors readily available. I see them all the time in exit stairwells.


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## BillConnerFASTC

I'm not sure the basis for the determination that theses are fire doors but without latching hardware, they aren't fire doors.

I believe you could put deadbolts on these doors - keyed not knobs - and signage that doors must be unlocked when room is occupied. Of course exit hardware - panic bars - would be better.


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## BillConnerFASTC

zmb said:


> There should be non-locking fire doors readily available. I see them all the time in exit stairwells.


Do you mean locking or latching?


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## StradivariusBone

The only thing making me think they were rated doors was the plate on the side of the door by the jamb. From my days of running low voltage cable, I was given the understanding that doors bearing the plate are some type of fire door (usually important because fire doors often meant fire wall and we'd need to protect any penetrations we'd end up making through them). I will go back and double check what the plate actually says and report. 

The doors have no locking mechanism of any sort, but they do have closers. If we go deadbolt, we'll have to put in pins (not sure of the nomenclature here, the sliding ones that lock one of the doors in place), on the one door.


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## BillConnerFASTC

Can't explain. Any evidence that there were some sort of latches or any hardware removed?

Not trying to be hard - I guessed the doors were labeled - probably 20 minutes? maybe 45? 

I wonder if for some reason the hardware was just not installed at the time of initial construction. Wonder if the original plans are around.

I think the correct move is talk to a door contractor and see if they'll give you a quote to install panic bars and latches.


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## StradivariusBone

No clearly visible remodeling, I would assume it's always been this way. I agree, it's very strange to me as well. I also can't guarantee that the wall around the room is in fact a fire wall. The whole building is almost like a large warehouse (approximately the size of the large room) with a steel roof, but instead of steel walls all the way down, there's a 1-story building built around it on all sides (the hallways, offices, classrooms, etc.). I would think the building code would mandate it as such, but I don't have that information.

I will try and talk to some more people about the doors this weekend. I'm assuming a reputable door contractor would be versed in the required codes, but that's also why I wanted to check CB first for thoughts. I will also check out the doors again to see their rating. I think panic bars and latches would go over better than deadbolts with the powers that be. 

In any event, knowing what you know now, do you think the zip ties would have raised an eyebrow from the AHJ? I'm trying to determine if I was right in being strongly concerned about this.


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## zmb

BillConnerASTC said:


> Do you mean locking or latching?


Non-locking, the door can always be opened. Isn't latching part of what makes a fire door be a fire door to keep strong drafts that fires create from opening the doors?


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## MNicolai

StradivariusBone said:


> In any event, knowing what you know now, do you think the zip ties would have raised an eyebrow from the AHJ? I'm trying to determine if I was right in being strongly concerned about this.



Zip ties would raise eyebrows with just about anyone. Even these weren't in the paths of egress, they'd still be bad ideas. In a fire, you can't know where a fire will happen or what will be between you and your path of egress. Having as many paths available to you as is possible is always preferred. If AHJ saw this or became aware of it, even if these weren't paths of egress and it wasn't against code, your AHJ would be quickly become suspicious of what demons may lie in the rest of your building and end up earning you a far more detailed and thorough inspection of the rest of the building.

It's bizarre nonetheless that this space would not have some form of locking mechanism (either by key or by allen wrench through a push bar), but this must be a use case that the architect hadn't foreseen or maybe the room layout was altered after the original construction.

I'd recommend taking a few photos of the doors you have, sending them off to a few locksmiths (maybe your building already has a master key system through a vendor who can provide you this service) and if you tell them how many doors like that you'd want to switch over, they can pretty readily inform you of the cost of either altering the existing doors or replacing them with new ones. I'd be a little amazed if there wasn't a way to alter the existing doors with new hardware though.


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## StradivariusBone

Ok, so I checked the doors labels more closely- the first one says:

> Warnock Hersy Listed Fire Door 20 Minute Rating, minimum latch throw 1/2 inch.



There's another red label that says:

> This fire door must be installed with approved or listed surface mounted hardware. Any other hardware shall void the label.



I'm not sure if the hardware the label mentions refers to the lack of latching hardware or to the hinges, door handle and push plate that are on the door as it is now. In my mind, it's pretty useless as a fire door as it is now since it wouldn't stay shut in the event of a fire. I don't think the force exerted by the closer is strong enough to combat a hot air draft.


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## BillConnerFASTC

Without the latching hardware, it's not a fire door. Too many variables to know if one is - or was - required. Worship facilities use to have a lot of exceptions. Fewer now but still some. Sorry - too intricate to make a for sure recommendation.


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## SteveB

What I'm seeing though, is a scenario where, should somebody fail to lock the access doors into the greenroom and/or stage area, that it would be possible for someone to enter the audience chamber and then encounter zip-tied doors, which would prevent egress. 

I'm pretty certain that would be an egregious code violation.

A few decades ago, we had a situation in our space (NYC) where the original door locks were non-functional. The answer from management was to install dead-bolted and padlocked door locks. 

The NYC Fire Department had that situation corrected.


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## BillConnerFASTC

You can lock a door if there are no occupants. If the authorities don't think you do a good job of enforcing this, you won't be allowed to.


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## SteveB

Tapa talk fail.

I was typing that you can lock to prevent entry, not egress. At least not in a place of public assembly, AFAIK.


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## StradivariusBone

I think the next step is to seek advice from a reputable locksmith or door installer. Thank you all for your input! This has given me good insight that I will share with the powers that be.


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## BillConnerFASTC

I really think you need an architect or fire protection engineer to determine if fire doors are required. Locksmiths and installers will not usually be experts on that.


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## marmer

BillConnerASTC said:


> You can lock a door if there are no occupants. If the authorities don't think you do a good job of enforcing this, you won't be allowed to.



Oooh, good point. That may be exactly why the original hardware, as described, seemed to be latching but non-lockable fire doors (a la exit stairs, as another poster pointed out.) If the original clients didn't see a need to keep people out or think they realistically could, they might have not wanted the doors to be lockable. In fact, if people do come and go frequently (to set up and deliver things) and there's not always a person around to unlock, that might be desirable. I think, going forward, the simplest solution that won't require a lot of extra cost and construction is to program the space in such a way that leaving valuables unattended is not necessary.


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