# High School Student Dies from Prop Gun Injury



## elite1trek

A sad reminder of how dangerous this industry can be if safety procedures are not followed. 

FOXNews.com - Student Dies After Prop Gun Discharges Before Play Performance


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## cprted

What a tragic and totally avoidable situation. It makes me wonder though, who thought it would be a good idea to use a real firearm, blanks or no, in a highschool situation.


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## avkid

Whoever let that unsupervised child have a loaded firearm needs to be prosecuted.


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## WestlakeTech

I won't be the last one to agree that it certainly should have been a fake gun, rather than a real one, which was used during the show. But I'm also wondering what a prop was doing in the booth. 

Also, the report said that the police had previously been called to the campus due to someone bringing the prop gun to the school. Here's a thought: what on EARTH are the police thinking that they would let a working gun be brought to a high school, prop or not? As we've now been reassured, it has just as much potential to kill as a prop as it does when used to murder.

There were at least 3 people who could have avoided this: the deceased, the director, and the police officer who said "oh, you're just using it as a prop? That's fine then."


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## rochem

We just finished a play at my high school where we used a prop gun. It wasn't used until near the end of the show. At half hour call, the TD would go to a big safe and bring out a smaller safe which contained the gun. He would hand it directly to the ASM on that side of the stage, who was not permitted to let it out of her sight. He would also give the key to the safe to another tech. Immediately before the gun was to be used, the tech with the key would come over and unlock the safe. The gun was handed to the actress and she walked on stage and did her thing. Immediately after coming off, the process happened in reverse. Then right after the final curtain the TD would come back and take the safe and key and lock them in the bigger safe.

A little overcautious? Possibly. But if this school were to have been just a little more overcautious, this completely preventable tragedy could have been avoided.


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## willbb123

That is truly unfortunate and if handled properly should of never happened. 
rochem method sounds like alot of unnecessary work, but it is necessary for safety especially in a high school. Always treat a gun like it is loaded. In a theater setting the gun is going to be pointed at someone, therefor extra precautions need to be taken. IMO with the school shootings that have happened there shouldn't be guns in a high school, especially not unsupervised.


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## Gretsch

Whether or not the gun is real a blank can kill when miss used. The problem was that they were using a starter blank in a 38, this means the gun had the same power discharge as 38 without a bullet. They should been using hand packed blanks with less powder. Its sad that people don't consult professionals when they do these things.


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## elite1trek

Charc said:


> I'm still unsure of exactly what the situation was. I have witnessed a traditional stage prop gun, modified with a trigger activated LED, fired directly into the mouth of a 16 year old boy.
> 
> He did that for a six week run.
> 
> Was this kid actually using a real gun?



From what I understand it was a real gun with blanks. Meaning that energy and gas was actually released from the end of the gun.


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## chrispo86

Here's another article that provides a little further explination of the situation...

Salt Lake Tribune Article


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## elite1trek

chrispo86 said:


> Here's another article that provides a little further explination of the situation...
> 
> Salt Lake Tribune Article



This article actually sounds like everybody is trying to cover their backside. It is unacceptable for a student to have a gun, real or otherwise. It is certainly unacceptable for him to be allowed to remove it from the school.


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## cprted

> _"Administrators and the resource officer, who is employed by the St. George Police Department, allowed the "blank gun" to be used as an off-stage sound effect, according to the news release."_


So they brought a firearm into a school to use as a sound effect?


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## elite1trek

cprted said:


> So they brought a firearm into a school to use as a sound effect?



Once Again, I will state...It sounds like people are trying to cover their backside...legally.

I know that I wouldn't want to be the person who is going to catch hell for all this. I'm not saying that I would lie about it, just that that person is in a really bad position.


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## Footer

Wait... so the kid took a rifle HOME to fix? 

This is more of a PSA then anything. 

First, you must be properly trained to handle a firearm before taking one onstage, and beyond that you must be trained on how to properly handle a firearm that is designed for stage use. 

When not onstage, the gun should be treated just like any other type of firearm, it should be kept in a locked vault. The person being shot at the the person doing the shooting must be present to load the firearm, and the person being shot it should do the loading. It should then be locked up until needed onstage. 

Also, you should NEVER use a real gun. You must have a gun that has a welded barrel. Period. 

When I have used firearms in the past onstage, I always go with these guys. They have good stuff for a good price. 

So, if someone comes to you wanting a live fire effect, don't tell them to bring something in, use a sound effect if possible. Have a person trained in stage combat come in and handle the weapons as well as insist that the weapon be manufactured for use onstage. 

gun rental


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## soundop

Wow, being a high school theater tech, and having a crew that sees a prop gun and is always like oooooh thts cool i think ill play with this, i personally never have and always yell at my crew for that behavior, any way theyve sworn off never to mishandle any prop, and i am going to make sure my director sees this article to stress to our cast the importance of not touching any prop that is not theres


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## WestlakeTech

Again, I think it's hard to point ONLY one finger, but I'd say the Gun-Donor-Parent is mostly responsible. He/she knew this was a real gun. It would be hard to not realize that. However, I've also gotta question what the kid was thinking when he put the gun to his head; let alone taking it out of a "locked cabinet" to do so. And I think the administration or at least the director should have checked more closely. I'd rather have a director who some would consider "anal" than a deceased cohort.


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## Footer

So I posted both stories on my door of my office for my students to read. Amazingly, none of them cared. They all said that of course they would not play with a gun, which I flipped out when I found them playing with a gun that was in our prop shop that I did not know we had (its now locked up). Ug. It really made me mad when they just laughed about it. I feel like that shop teacher on south park,

"Stop screwing around, you kids screw around to much".


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## WestlakeTech

Footer said:


> So I posted both stories on my door of my office for my students to read. Amazingly, none of them cared. They all said that of course they would not play with a gun, which I flipped out when I found them playing with a gun that was in our prop shop that I did not know we had (its now locked up). Ug. It really made me mad when they just laughed about it. *I feel like that shop teacher on south park,*
> 
> "Stop screwing around, you kids screw around to much".



Seems more like Dangerfield to me: you get no respect. 

I printed out the FOX version at a rehearsal earlier this evening and just "happened" leave it laying innocently on one of the tables. I left early so I'm curious as to whether the Techs found it during their classroom clean-up.


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## Schniapereli

That story spread fast around drama departments here in Utah. The junior high school just finished Oklahoma, and they had a big discussion about it.

I also watched another newscast that I think said in addition to being a member of the tech crew and being an eagle scout, he had taught about guns at a scout camp where he worked. He should have really known better.

A guy in my neighborhood had his brother die onstage during West Side Story a while ago. Apparently a real gun was swapped in, and he got shot, and rolled into the pit. They didn't notice till curtain call.

It's always a really sad, and easily preventable way to die in my opinion. People should really never take any kind of gun lightly.


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## TimMiller

maybe sticking a cleaning rod down the barrel to make sure it is plugged would be a good safety measure to make sure that the gun is the correct one with the barrel plugged. Also when ever there is any live fire, i make sure there is a person there who is an expert in the field. I had a cop lady telling me one day that when she was at weapons training class, the teacher proceded to load a gun and shoot his at his foot, naturally hitting him in the foot. THIS HAPPENED DURING THE MIDDLE OF A POLICE ACADEMY FIRE ARMS TRAINING SESSION!!! You get into trouble when you get too comforable with something that is very dangerous.


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## icewolf08

First off, this was a preventable tragedy, there were many points in the chain of events where the ultimate end could have been prevented. As with ANY weapon used on stage (including bare skin) proper training and supervision is required. Even with professional companies you always need trained stage combat choreographers. There are a couple good trained Utahns who would have happily helped out had they been called.

Also, Rochem's safety procedures are not far fetched at all. We are a professional theatre and we always follow similar procedures and not only with firearms but with swords and knives as well.

Safety is key in all that we do in this industry. If you ever see people engaging in any unsafe activity or practice you should say something. If you walk in to your venue and see that something is not safe for use, say something. We would rather cancel a performance than risk the safety of cast, crew and audience. It is easier to refund 1000 tickets than to take people to the hospital (or worse).


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## LightStud

Google Jon-Erik Hexum. Here's one result: Movies promote unsafe firearms use - TheFiringLine Forums.


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## soundop

TimMiller said:


> maybe sticking a cleaning rod down the barrel to make sure it is plugged would be a good safety measure to make sure that the gun is the correct one with the barrel plugged. Also when ever there is any live fire, i make sure there is a person there who is an expert in the field. I had a cop lady telling me one day that when she was at weapons training class, the teacher proceded to load a gun and shoot his at his foot, naturally hitting him in the foot. THIS HAPPENED DURING THE MIDDLE OF A POLICE ACADEMY FIRE ARMS TRAINING SESSION!!! You get into trouble when you get too comforable with something that is very dangerous.




Id just like to point out, in this case i doubt a cleaning rod would have worked, the gasses would have shoved t out of the barrel, and into his head


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## Van

TimMiller said:


> maybe sticking a cleaning rod down the barrel to make sure it is plugged would be a good safety measure to make sure that the gun is the correct one with the barrel plugged. ......


Nope, He shouldn't have had to wonder in the first place. Had this been handled correctly noone would have to "check and see" They would have known. This reminds me of a quote that I can never remember about how you fire the rigger that walks in and say, " I think I can do it." He either knows it can or can't be done there is no room for Maybes.

TimMiller said:


> ...... I had a cop lady telling me one day that when she was at weapons training class, the teacher proceded to load a gun and shoot his at his foot, naturally hitting him in the foot. THIS HAPPENED DURING THE MIDDLE OF A POLICE ACADEMY FIRE ARMS TRAINING SESSION!!! .....


Ah our tax dollars at work. 

TimMiller said:


> .........You get into trouble when you get too comforable with something that is very dangerous.


 
This a quote that should be blown up to 300 point type and plastered on the walls of every shop in America. Ocasionally the newbie gets hurt doing something stupid but the guys that lose 4 fingers in the bandsaw are usually Pros that have been doing it for a while and it all comes down to comfort level. When you stop being cautious around that 60 toothed spinning wheel that is being driven by 4.5 horse power at 3500 RPM, then it's time to hang up your tool belt and go watch a few safety videos. 

Lastly, I hate to sound dispassionate, or like a complete jerk, but really, how incredibly stupid does one have to be ? I use that to describe everyone involved with this tragedy. The kid was teaching gun safety ? Then he's a complete moron. The director, or whomever decided it would be a good idea to allow a live firearm into a theatre should himself be shot, preferably with balloon cutters from 30 feet away < it'll hurt a lot> 
And the cops did no one any favors by allowing something as stupid as this happen. 

Ok not lastly I want to address one other thing. If anyone out there evers considers trying to modify a weapon themselves, for use on the stage, and you are not a trained gunsmith or certified welder then stop what you are doing and fire yourself. Modifying a live weapon is not a simple matter of shoving a steel dowel down the barrel. There is nothing you can "simply" do to turn a live weapon to a dead one. A firearm for stage use should be kept to an extremely tight regimine of cleaning and inspection 
I will aplaud Rochem's safety procedures, that's the way to do it. Even a cap gun can cause blindness. I find there are a couple of types of people when it comes to guns < ok more than a couple, a whole lot more> People who are raised around them and were never taught "real" safety procedures, The kind with real good dumb luck who never kill or get killed only by the grace of God. Then there are those of us that were raised around them Learned the proper care and feeding and haven't had an accident because of the grace of God _*and*_ because we know what we are doing. Then there are those folks that say, " I don't believe in guns." too which I can only respond, "Really? 'cause I can show you one....."



a loaded gun never "accidentally" shot anyone.


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## gafftaper

There's much more to say about this tragedy. 

For future readers, I want to add in a link to a good recent thread on creating a gunshot sound effect. There are lots of good ideas in that thread about how to do it the right way and also links to some resources for safe stage weapons and professional resources. 

Personally my policy is the gun must be completely non-firing or you hire a professional. No exceptions. All guns firing or not get the full Rochem treatment. 

...and if you want a good gun sound effect just slam a 1x4 into the deck.


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## leistico

I remember the Jon-Erik Hexum thing vividly. I was a fan back then.

We're using an on-stage gun in the show I'm running right now, though not a "real" gun. It's a starter pistol -- realistic look from a distance, no barrel (solid metal - basically a "prop" barrel), makes a loud pop, and the only two people to handle are our TD and the actor himself onstage, kept locked up.

Whoever can come up with a non-firing (no real barrel) realistic-sounding and -looking stage firearm that's affordable for purchase or rental will be able to write his/her own ticket.


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## philhaney

TimMiller said:


> maybe sticking a cleaning rod down the barrel to make sure it is plugged would be a good safety measure to make sure that the gun is the correct one with the barrel plugged.



An admirable sentiment, and I understand what you're trying to do, but not a good idea. I work at a Colonial re-enactment facility where we use flintlock rifles, and amongst our MANY safety rules and regs it is expressly forbidden to take a ramrod out onto the field at any time (if left in the barrel they turn into very nasty projectiles). Plus, we never fire projectiles, only powder. Only professionally trained "shooters" may handle firearms, etc.


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## Grommet

I ASM'D a show in high school. The show had plastic prop guns. I was given a starting pistol with .22 caliber blanks to fire back stage. 

I was about 17 at the time. With a hunter education course under my belt. 

On one hand there is the minor with a firearm.

the other option was to have a parent. But not just one but 2 so that they can switch to see their kid perform. 

I today would rather have the minor who 1) knows the show and the ques to fire as to be prepared to perform the ques safely. 
2)would be focused on the show workings the peeking out of the wings to watch the show.

But every show with kids i have done had parents who were good people but just new to theater.

I will give a high school student a starter pistol for a sound effect after i 
1) have no doubt in they're abilities that they will be safe
2) lecture him/her on gun safety and why you should not brag to other of what you are doing.


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## gafftaper

Many starter pistols do not completely seal the shell off. This means tiny bits of shrapnel can be ejected from the gun. When I was a kid we used a starter pistol on stage in a play. I reached out from behind the proscenium and shot the pistol at a girl who was on the other side... at least 15 feet away. Twice in rehearsal she complained that she had been hit by something. We didn't believe her. However the second time she had a tiny scratch on her. Later in the run of the show I was actually hit by a piece of shrapnel that was ejected sideways, bounced off the proscenium and came back and hit me. 

Starter pistols are NOT safe for stage use. This danger is even more true when you put a blank shell in a real gun. (Anyone who doubts this research Brandon Lee). 

There are only two types of guns that should EVER be allowed on stage:
1) Non-firing replicas and dummy guns. 
2) REAL Professional prop guns. These guns require that a real trained person oversee the stunt. There need to be a variety of safety protocols used in the choreography of the shot ,as well as safety features in the costume, and procedures for how the gun is handled back stage. 

There are VERY FEW high school programs who should ever even consider using a firing prop gun on stage. They simply don't have the means to safely do this. 

Grommet, I do NOT mean to pick on you here. You may be a very safe and well trained hunter. That's great. However, training in firing real guns is very different than the training to use stage weapons. The VAST majority of accidents involving guns on stage happen because someone thinks their knowledge of handling a real gun qualifies them to handle a prop gun. Imagine if you will what would happen if a professional NASCAR driver had never driven a passenger car on city streets. Sure he's a great driver, but without first learning the rules for travel on regular roads he's going to t-boned at the first red light he drives through. The same is true of gun good responsible owners using prop weapons. It's just not the same thing. On the other hand, if i was looking for someone to become my weapons expert on a show, i would definitely choose the responsible gun owner over someone who had never used a real gun, as many skills and rules will transfer.

As I have written about many times on CB, a piece of 1x4 slammed into the floor. Makes the best gun effect. You'll be amazed at how loud and good it sounds. It needs to be about 4 feet long. Stand it on end with your left foot wedge tightly to the bottom. hold the top tightly with your left hand. Raise your right foot as high as you can on the board. Now slam the board into the floor using your left foot as "a hinge", driving it to the deck with your right foot as you let go with your hand. Be sure to push all your weight through to the floor so that you stomp on the board _real good_, preventing it from bouncing or creating unwanted sounds after it hits the deck.


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## LightingPenguin

I keep reading the word "trained" and "certified" in this topic, yet I keep drawing a blank. Where and how does one become trained or certified with guns/gun safety for theatrical purposes?


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## gafftaper

Certified doesn't really exist in the stage weaponry world. People say they are a certified fight choreographer. It really just means the took some classes from someone who is a professional and has done this a long time. Maybe that person gave them a certificate, but there is no real standard certification. This is a great example of why we now have the ETCP certification for Riggers and Electricians.

Trained? Where? Does it mean anything? I know it's not me first of all. If I was looking to hire someone I consider a "trained professional" I would call other theaters and ask who others have used and they feel really knows what they are doing. Unfortunately, that's the best we have in the industry at this point. 

How do you get to be "that guy"? Definitely start with safety training with real guns. Learn them really well. Then find classes in fight choreography. From there it's a long mysterious path. Somehow you've got to get in a situation where you are working with someone who's an old expert and learn all the safety tricks. 

Where is MagnumBD he does this for a living?


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## MSLD

wow. i am very angry with myself when i was scared of catching hell for setting the fire alarm off with haze. this situation is much worse.

very unfortunate.


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## mrtrudeau23

rochem said:


> We just finished a play at my high school where we used a prop gun. It wasn't used until near the end of the show. At half hour call, the TD would go to a big safe and bring out a smaller safe which contained the gun. He would hand it directly to the ASM on that side of the stage, who was not permitted to let it out of her sight. He would also give the key to the safe to another tech. Immediately before the gun was to be used, the tech with the key would come over and unlock the safe. The gun was handed to the actress and she walked on stage and did her thing. Immediately after coming off, the process happened in reverse. Then right after the final curtain the TD would come back and take the safe and key and lock them in the bigger safe.
> 
> A little overcautious? Possibly. But if this school were to have been just a little more overcautious, this completely preventable tragedy could have been avoided.



but this is how it should be done. there should only be three people that ever touch the firearm. the actor, the SM or ASM, and the weapons master, if there is one. each one needs to check it and make **** sure no one else lays hands on it.


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## blackisthenewblack

Just in response to this thread, Backstage @ Backstage jobs has a very interesting article about this situation, which I thought I would post up as a reminder to all. It includes some details as well as what "should" have been done to prevent this unfortunate incident. Tucker Thayer would have graduated this month


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