# Name that (Big!) Connector: G4100/stage plug



## Footer

I am cleaning out the basement of my theatre and stripping copper of the 2 generation of old dimmer racks I have down there. I have two of these connectors on some old 6k dimmers. What are they? Who made them? What where they rated for? Can you still use this connector today? Bonus points if you can get a hold of a spec sheet for the connector. 

As always, if you consider yourself a professional in any way or are old enough to remember using this connector, please refrain from posting for a week or until the question is answered! 







And this is the other connector, this time with a GamCheck for scale...


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## HillJonathan

Do you have any pictures of the inside? Crazy connector.


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## dramatech

My guess, and it is only a guess, is that is the connector, that mounts to the back of a dimmer module. When the dimmer module is pushed in to a slot in the rack, or housing, It connects neutral, two phases of power for two dimmers such as SCRs and then returns the dimmed circuits to the rack or housing to go to the loads.
I base this guess, on the fact that it strikes a very close resemblence to the connector on the back of an EDI MKVII dimmer module.


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## derekleffew

I'm more interested in that thing in the corner. What the heck is that!? Medieval torture device?


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## philhaney

OK, "Name that (Big!) Connector." 

I'm gonna go with "Fred."


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## cdub260

philhaney said:


> As for "Name that (Big!) Connector" I'm gonna go with "Fred."



No Phil, it has to be Ethel.


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## philhaney

cdub260 said:


> No Phil, it has to be Ethel.



Last time I checked, Ethel was a girls name. Both of these connectors are boys.....


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## MPowers

The strange thing in the corner is indeed the top of a stage brace. A stage brace was a wooden (Oak) or metal (aluminum) "pole" with an adjustable length due to sliding (wood) or telescoping (aluminum) and tightened down with a medium sized thumb screw. The upper hook twisted into the hole of a brace cleat (see previous post) making a very secure, rapid, attachment to the back a standard type of flat as much as 12' above the ground without tools or a ladder. The lower end of the brace was attached to the floor with a stage screw directly into the floor or an improved stage screw with a metal threaded plug into the floor or simply weighted with a flor late and sand bag. With standard construction, usually soft covered, this was an extreamly fast and secure way to fasten and asemble a large set. Often teamed with lashing hardware and lash lines. Lashing allowed a single stagehand to fasten two 16' tall flats together alont the entire height in less than 10 seconds, no tools, by himself (a second stage hand had to bring the second flat but did not have to help with the fastening.)! The method is still used where a set is used ofte such as a small quior shell or a news broadcast show etc and uses the aluminum braces with permenant threaded inserts in to the floor for the bottom attachment. 

Michael Powers, Project Manager, ETCP Certified Rigger - Theatre
Central Lighting & Equipment, Des Moines, Central Lighting & Equipment


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## derekleffew

I should have made part two its own Question of the Day. In addition to MPowers, coldnorth57 and philhaney also supplied correct answers.

I'm sure Footer has other QotD material in that room!

Sorry for the hijack everyone. 
Back to topic: I bet I know at least two, not very old, theatres in Chicago that have that connector (or similar) still in use.


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## jonliles

Hard to tell from the photo, but it appears that maybe is there an interlock on it? So, 2 hots, 2 commons and a ground...


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## MarshallPope

derekleffew said:


> I should have made part two its own Question of the Day.



Well crap. That's one I could have gotten correct.


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## Footer

Just to kill this rat hole that Derek caused once and for all...

Both the stage brace and stage screw were relics from college. The eye bolt next to it was a hand forged I bolt that was attached to the smoke pocket in my current theatre. 

The stage brace was something I got when I was in college and we were cleaning out the "old gym". The "old gym" was built in 1906, had a raked running track around the perimter, and was used as the theatre dept. scene shop for 20 when I got to that school. There was all kinds of fun stuff stuffed tucked into all the corners, including an old coffin. 

The red thing is a stage screw. One version on the screw was patented in the town my college was in. We kind of had it as our mascot and everyone in my class had one. Our saying was "Decatur, IL, Screwing the Stage since 1914". 

I have this patent hanging on my wall....

STAGE-SCREW - Google Patent Search


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## Wolf

We still use these connectors! Its what we use to power our CAMlocks for our 12-channel old CD-80 dimmer packs in our black box. I know they are at least rated for 28.8K. The name is escaping me at the moment though.


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## chris325

Footer said:


> ...including an old coffin.



Occupied...? :shock:


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## otherwho

500 V 10-20A 3 phase with earth most likely Ip11 

10A, 20A, 32A, 40A, 50A and 60A and 5 pins for equipment and distribution boards that require neutral and earth. one pin for each of the phases 
Protected Accessories to IP66 in page 4 

http://www.clipsal.com.au/trade/__data/page/81/W0000791.pdf
has it some in info on it. 

it i think a Australia type from a fast WWW search 

that is my guess.


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## Footer

otherwho said:


> 500 V 10-20A 3 phase with earth most likely Ip11
> 
> 10A, 20A, 32A, 40A, 50A and 60A and 5 pins for equipment and distribution boards that require neutral and earth. one pin for each of the phases
> Protected Accessories to IP66 in page 4
> 
> http://www.clipsal.com.au/trade/__data/page/81/W0000791.pdf
> has it some in info on it.
> 
> it i think a Australia type from a fast WWW search
> 
> that is my guess.



Your getting at least in the ball park. 

It is made in the US and specifically for theatrical use. It is UL listed.


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## otherwho

http://www.gtaust.com/downloads/PowerWiseBrochure_web.pdf


50 amp wilco connection? 



Hubbell Wiring Device-Kellems: 2008 Full Line Catalog part E
hubbell pin and sleeve 4 wire with pivot?


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## Footer

otherwho said:


> http://www.gtaust.com/downloads/PowerWiseBrochure_web.pdf
> 
> 
> 50amp wilco connection?
> 
> 
> 
> Hubbell Wiring Device-Kellems: 2008 Full Line Catalog part E
> hubbell pin and sleeve 4 wire with pivot?



The powerwise connector is getting closer, however this connector is square. Also, this is a theatrical connector. I would suggest looking at companies that specifically manufacture theatrical connectors.


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## mstaylor

Does it make you old when I knew what the odd thing in the corner was without thinking? I'll stay out of the connector question for now.


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## Kelite

mstaylor said:


> Does it make you old when I knew what the odd thing in the corner was without thinking? I'll stay out of the connector question for now.



Not old Michael, _experienced beyond your years_!


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## Chris15

Let me confirm it is NOT a Wilco / Australian Pattern connector. The centre pin in this instance is larger than the outers, this is not the case on our 3 phase...


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## mjw56

Would it be 3 phase power with ground and the large center pin being an over-sized neutral?


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## rsmentele

mstaylor said:


> Does it make you old when I knew what the odd thing in the corner was without thinking? I'll stay out of the connector question for now.


 

I would have to say no also... I had 2 college prof's that insisted we all learn 'ancient' theatre methods in tech classes. And that along with flat lashing was on the list...!


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## philhaney

mstaylor said:


> Does it make you old when I knew what the odd thing in the corner was without thinking? I'll stay out of the connector question for now.



No, it doesn't make _*me *_old because _*you *_know what that odd thing in the corner is at all...


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## derekleffew

Posted at Footer's request...

While I don't have a manufacturer's cut sheet (left behind in a cross-country move), I was able to find and scan two print ads.



(Cut sheet on top of the pile in the photo.)



These were used to power the portable dimmer packs (CD80 and D192) at the Royal-George and Briar Street theatres in Chicago, and likely still are.

Perhaps someone can tell us *when* and *why* the connector became extinct?


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## erosing

derekleffew said:


> Perhaps someone can tell us when and why the connector became extinct?



Would it have something to do with the materials used in the connector?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## STEVETERRY

Arez said:


> Would it have something to do with the materials used in the connector?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Actually, no. The materials were fairly conventional phenolic, cast aluminum, and brass.

This connector was introduced during a time when it was not clear that the NEC would allow single-pole separable connectors without sequential interlock. Pin-and-sleeve 5-pole 100A connectors available were huge and expensive, for good reason.

The G4100 was an attempt to shrink the size and cost of a 5P 100A connector. It failed miserably because:

A. You could barely get the requisite 100A conductors terminated.
B. It was almost impossible to mate due to the ridiculously high insertion force of 5 split pins.

Then came the icing on the cake: a series of violent connector explosions where insulation failed in the phenolic block or the silly fiber shroud that protected the metal backshell from coming into contact with the pins or conductors. One of the weaknesses of the pin retention into the block was that it used metal roll pins. The holes drilled in the block for these, and the lack of precision in setting the pins proved to be a problem. As I recall, there were some injuries. 

That was it: connector discontinued.

But think about it: a 5-pole 100A connector for use in the theatre? I think not! When you do the calculations on the ampacity of a 5-conductor SO cord with 4 current-carrying conductors, you end up with a piece of cable that a)was not made and b)would never fit in the connector, and c) was a guaranteed hernia. 

Therefore, the industry quickly concluded that at the three-phase 100A level, single-conductor cables and connectors were a requirement.

ST


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## ship

Hmm, fascinating on the plug. Never seen one before. Interesting they would think this was good for 100A given the pin size and that a neutral back than would be larger, I thought oversized or double neutrals were more a modern concept.

Funny also it wasn't big enough to fit the cable it was meant to fit, I might think it 30A in comparison to the Gam Check, perhaps 60A if pushing it which might have fit the multi-cable. Perhaps was desgned for one thing and used for another? What's stamped on the plug for amperage rating?

Stage brace, got one from 1926 and I still frequently use it. Also have boxes full of parts to them and the old style stage screw, the newer style with the insert and various other parts. Granted these days I don't use it for supporting scenery - though I did grow up with that practice which was the norm for soft and even some hard flats on flat I was using. A weighted brace jack would only support X amount of scenery in height, after that you really did need a stage brace. Even at one point learned to use them in screwing to say a 12"x18" double plywood block that had a rubber bottom. Load the block up with stage weights as you would with a brace jck so as not to destroy the floor and it was still a viable option when I was doing scenery. Haven't lash lined scenery since the mid-80's but grew up with that also. Still viable for quick box set scenery changes asuming enough manpower or castered tip jacks for the scenery. Granted with these weighted brace techniques you kind of needed either a lot of people to carry the weights off stage or a few carts ready to ge loaded. I tended to use such brace jacks instead of foot irons also - such plates were another purpose of the stage screw.

Quick and quiet scene changes. Other ways to do it these days - most of them are more expensive or would take longer and be more noisy. (I'll post that question in the scenery section.)

Over the years at least for me, pulling gel without having to fly in the lighting was a really good use for a stage brace. The old theater I worked at had entire racks of them so I could pick my brace for the distance I needed it to travel. I only have one now - traded some scrap steel for it the theater needed. These days I use it for pulling tape off my 14' high tape wall (rolls of tape on 18" pipe lengths mounted to a board and filled with every type of tape available.) A bannister with perpendicular mounted and ground down bracket for it works a little better for this purpose but the stage brace is still useful in the shop.

Mainly today I use it to either lift up cable sag for my deprtment's wire rope hoist we use to hang prototype lights with - hook the extra cable once the light is hoisted up and cable tie the stage brace to a shelf near by. Works perfect for this. Other purpose is to as with the above grab stuff say on a flown truss without having to fly back in the truss - or adjust fixtures. It's around 20' extension length with hooks comes in really handy.


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## derekleffew

ship said:


> ... Over the years at least for me, pulling gel without having to fly in the lighting was a really good use for a stage brace. ...


Aye, 'twas a valued man he that could remove, and insert, a gelframe using a stage brace. 
Scrollers? We doan need no steenkin scrollers!


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## Studio

My high school still uses stage braces all the time. They were the main support for our recent play, and are used all time for our childrens theater shows.


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## Footer

Well, I decided to break one open tonight. It took a hammer to get the cable out of the back, but it came out (and went back together again). Here are some "tear down" photos.


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## ship

Nice! Fascinating. What size cable was feeding these 100A plugs? I know I have some 4/5 SO cable about and it's huge. So it's center ground, that is also interesting but sensible. Is that center ground pin point of first contact also? Can I play in your shop for the day? Seems like fun work this cleaning. 

Especially love the Scooby Doo mystery hunt quick results.


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## Footer

ship said:


> Is that center ground pin point of first contact also?



Nope. All pins are flush with each other. That was my 1st sign that this is not at all a modern connector. It balances perfectly when sat on a table on its pins. The feeder cable for it was #2. It was feeding a 6pack of 6k's. In order to get the connectors off I used a sawzall.


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## derekleffew

Footer said:


> ... that this is not at all a modern connector. ...


Something _only_ 23 years old not modern? P'shaw!


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## Footer

derekleffew said:


> Something _only_ 23 years old not modern? P'shaw!



As modern as this (which I have one of these stuffed in a storage unit)...
Compaq III Portable computer 


Or this... (if it did not catch on fire that is)


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## STEVETERRY

Footer said:


> Nope. All pins are flush with each other. That was my 1st sign that this is not at all a modern connector. It balances perfectly when sat on a table on its pins. The feeder cable for it was #2. It was feeding a 6pack of 6k's. In order to get the connectors off I used a sawzall.




They probably used a similar tool to install the cable. I assembled a few of these, and it was not fun!

Note the .125" holes in the phenolic block. These were the scene of the crime in the flash/bang connector explosions.

Also note the ridiculous fiber shroud to insulate the metal backshell.


These pix remind me that this is one of the worst connectors ever conceived.

ST



ST


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## derekleffew

STEVETERRY said:


> ... These pix remind me that this is one of the worst connectors ever conceived. ...


Bold statement, seeing as how this connector

was sold and used for at least 70 years. I know, I know, two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do!

Was the UL-Listing on the G4100 ever rescinded, or do we just not talk about that?


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## Footer

derekleffew said:


> Was the UL-Listing on the G4100 ever rescinded, or do we just not talk about that?



Not from the looks of things...
RUFR.E11417 - Receptacles, Stage Type


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## dvsDave

derekleffew said:


> Bold statement, seeing as how this connector
> 
> was sold and used for at least 70 years. I know, I know, two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do!
> 
> Was the UL-Listing on the G4100 ever rescinded, or do we just not talk about that?



That looks vaguely familiar... Was that the connector that Doc Brown used in _Back to the Future_ when he hooked up the cable to the lightning rod above city hall?


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## STEVETERRY

derekleffew said:


> Bold statement, seeing as how this connector
> 
> was sold and used for at least 70 years. I know, I know, two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do!
> 
> Was the UL-Listing on the G4100 ever rescinded, or do we just not talk about that?



And that was a reliable connector, too! No internal arcing or termination difficulties here! Any problems, you could see them!


ST


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## STEVETERRY

Footer said:


> Nope. All pins are flush with each other. That was my 1st sign that this is not at all a modern connector. It balances perfectly when sat on a table on its pins. The feeder cable for it was #2. It was feeding a 6pack of 6k's. In order to get the connectors off I used a sawzall.



Do you have a mating female? If so, take some pix--I think there's more fascinating archeology in the female pin mounting method.


ST


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## Footer

STEVETERRY said:


> Do you have a mating female? If so, take some pix--I think there's more fascinating archeology in the female pin mounting method.
> 
> 
> ST



I don't. It could be down in that basement somewhere though. I will keep an eye out.


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## Footer

dvsDave said:


> That looks vaguely familiar... Was that the connector that Doc Brown used in _Back to the Future_ when he hooked up the cable to the lightning rod above city hall?



Yes, it is. He also used 2-fer boxes. That is THE original stage connector, still in use in many old halls. I have a few of those connections that are now defunct in my pit.


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## gafftapegreenia

I've been in a few old spaces that have the female ends of the old stage plug but never any males that I've been able to find.


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## cdub260

Footer said:


> Yes, it is. He also used 2-fer boxes. That is THE original stage connector, still in use in many old halls. I have a few of those connections that are now defunct in my pit.



I've got a few in long abandoned and covered over floor pockets in my venue.


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## derekleffew

dvsDave said:


> ... Was that the connector that Doc Brown used in _Back to the Future_ when he hooked up the cable to the lightning rod above city hall?


Yes and no. The one in the movie was the more "modern" Mole Richardson-style studio stage plug, still available today.



http://s347.photobucket.com/albums/p456/derekleffew/?action=view&current=BTTFstagePlug.jpg

For comparison, both styles are pictured in the wiki entry stage plug.


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## Footer

derekleffew said:


> Yes and no. The one in the movie was the more "modern" Mole Richardson-style studio stage plug, still available today.
> 
> 
> 
> For comparison, both styles are pictured in the wiki entry stage plug.



Derek, can you also find the brand and model of the rope light in the flux capacitor? I am in need of building one to correct the wrongs of the past....


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## derekleffew

Footer said:


> Derek, can you also find the brand and model of the rope light in the flux capacitor? I am in need of building one to correct the wrongs of the past....



IIRC, due to its lack of UL-Listing, STEVETERRY had it banned, and the original manufacturer went of out business. Check ebay for a used one.


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## Footer

derekleffew said:


> Check ebay for a used one.



Yes, but then I would have to find a Mr. Fusion to go along with it and those things are so hard to find these days with the economy and all.


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## ship

If you search into a past post about "wall of shame" I have a 1926 version of the outlet out of a floor pocket or wall pocket and even a wooden paddle version of this "improved" plug. This plus other versions of it in photo. Believe they were rated for 30A.


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## derekleffew

To save everyone the searching...
From the thread Real Stage Pin:

The yellow one looks to be the standard 50A stage plug. The orange one looks to be someone's attempt at a homemade copy.


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## philhaney

dvsDave said:


> That looks vaguely familiar... Was that the connector that Doc Brown used in _Back to the Future_ when he hooked up the cable to the lightning rod above city hall?



I think so. It's also the connector that kills the entire royal family in the opening scenes of _King Ralph_ (they're taking the Royal Family photograph outdoors in the rain. Someone pulls one of these plugs out of a distro box that is half submerged in a puddle of water, shakes it out, and plugs it back in. Next thing, flash! And the entire royal family is dead, prompting a search for the next in line to the throne. Who do they find? Ralph Jones (John Goodman) living in America).


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## ship

derekleffew said:


> To save everyone the searching...
> From the thread The yellow one looks to be the standard 50A stage plug. The orange one looks to be someone's attempt at a homemade copy.



Thanks - you are a master at bringing up old stuff. Don't know the rating on the yellow one - dismanteled my "wall of shame" it's somewhere up in my garage ceiling at this point.

Neither were home made and in fact the "orange one" came out of active stock at a 1926 theater before I upgraded their floor and wall pockets. It was rated for 30A. The yellow one, no longer in active service but also in stock there.

See the PDF of my 1916 Chicago Stage Lightig catalogue (here and hopefully on the Kliegl Brother's website - if they ever expand beyond just one brand they list.) Both plugs were available for sale and in fact it has lots more important theater lighting history that the 1914 Kliegl catalogue to the 1926 catalogue gap in history fills in. (When did the incandescent Plano Convex fixture come out or Ovalites become filament lamps?) This plus a fascinating introduction to read - perhaps a shot over the bow at Display, Kliegl or other companies?


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## tjrobb

We found a bunch of plug boxes for stage plugs when we gutted our deck post-2008 flood. Had been buried & forgotten for nearly 30 years, didn't look to be in very bad shape. Sadly, they were ripped out & trashed during the reno; the new stage deck is pretty great, though... (Plyron & plywood, oooh).


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## DMXpro

Yes, it was!


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## dancarden

mstaylor said:


> Does it make you old when I knew what the odd thing in the corner was without thinking? I'll stay out of the connector question for now.


the odd thing in the corner is called a french brace in the UK. they must have originated from france i presume. they are still used today fairly regularly. the design hasnt changed much. they do tend to be the longest surviving item to be found back stage.

the connector i have no idea about as i am but a humble set builder.


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