# Really?!? Idiots! (Women Working in the Industry)



## photoatdv (Dec 19, 2009)

Okay, so I was working a descent sized load out tonight. There were several companies involved and I was with the one more or less in charge. So officially I did have the power to give orders to a lot of these guys (though in real life if I did it without a good reason I'd be in a lot of trouble).

Well I had no less than 3 of the guys (from the same (different than mine)company none the less) make stupid sexist comments to me. Apparently everything was too heavy, too hard, or too dangerous for me. I also had some more borderline comments... but they didn't upset me as much.

Best part was one guy who told me to let him do it because I'd get hurt ended up having to have me take over because he got hurt. Might I add it wasn't anything particularly dangerous... he was just doing it stupidly even though I tried to tell him the right way. Plus it went a lot faster once I took over because I didn't insist on doing several steps of the project, holding everyone up while I ran back and forth...

Anyone got any magic ideas for how to get them to stop? This company really has issues (I'm had problems with them a couple times before)...


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## Footer (Dec 19, 2009)

*Re: Really?!? Idiots!*

This is something every women deals with in this industry. My wife has done a pretty good job at stopping it but she also knows how to live with it. I know it sucks, but it is a fact of life in this industry. 

One of my best friends in college nearly got in a fist fight with me because I helped her turn a stuck coffin key. She always was the first to jump on stuff and gained respect that way. 

Once again, I know it sucks, but it is the fact of life. Many stagehands out there are the chauvinistic types.


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## len (Dec 19, 2009)

It's too bad you get that attitude. The few women I've worked with/hired have been spot on. There was one exception, but only one. Never been supervised by a female in this business, although I have had female bosses before.


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## photoatdv (Dec 19, 2009)

Well I will admit my company has had our share of ditzy idiot women, but not that much more so than of idiot men. And idiot men OR women do not last more than a couple of calls here.


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## Sony (Dec 19, 2009)

I've worked with a lot of women and they are all capable of doing the same stuff the guys are. Honestly if I were you I would just be straight with them and tell them you don't need the help. I've had several women do that to me when I've offered to help and I'm fine with it, most of them can do everything just as well as me, I've only met 1 woman in the industry who would always seem to bite off more than she could chew, only to yell at me when I offered help and then continue to struggle for another 2 minutes only to concede defeat and then run off in a fury because "I insulted her." She was not well liked in our shop...but that was one person. Every other woman I have worked with has been completely curtious and has ether known her own limits or has asked for help the few times they have needed it. The fact is I've found that women who are straight and to the point seem to be the most effective in getting the "overprotective" guys to back off. All and all I enjoy working with my female counterparts, a lot of times more than the guys. Hope this helps!


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## museav (Dec 19, 2009)

Saying you are unable to do something because you are female may be sexist but simply treating you different may not be. Maybe it's because you did not identify the type of comments received or maybe it's my age but I was brought up to treat women differently. If I don't open the door for my Mother she will stand there until I do and expects me to do the same for any other woman. My wife greatly appreciates that I open car doors for her, offer to carry things, etc. You can't necessarily expect people to turn that natural reaction on and off based on your, possibly unspoken, wishes. Look at it from the other side, it can be difficult to be held to two different standards; don't offer to help one woman and get an earful about there being no more gentlemen, offer to help the next woman and get blasted for being sexist.

So I guess my suggestion is to as nicely as possible make it clear up front that you don't expect or even want any special treatment. Identify that you want no special consideration. That won't stop the real sexists but it may make it easier for those who would otherwise just be trying to be nice.


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## mstaylor (Dec 19, 2009)

I have many females that work for including my Asst SM. I let them do what they feel they can handle and help if they ask. Many times things take two people but some will not accept help, both male and female. When I work with a new hand I watch what they can do or not do and offer help when necessary.


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## kiwitechgirl (Dec 19, 2009)

All of the guys I work with on a regular basis know that if I need help, I'll ask for it. I do occasionally get "here, let me do that for you" when I'm dealing with something I'm perfectly capable of managing, to which I usually just reply "no thanks, I'm fine". I have no problem saying "that's too heavy for me" or "that's too high, I can't reach it" (I'm far from tall!) and the boys have no issues in lending me a hand when that occurs. However, I think the trick to that is knowing your limits and working to them, and never playing the "girl" card. 

There are times when I get assigned to an easier part of a particular job; for instance, last week I was loading out a show where we had several big flown archways which had to be separated into sections as they came in, and I got sent up the genie to do the unbolting rather than being on the ground dealing with tall, awkward flats which would have been difficult for me - but surely that's just intelligent use of skills by the boss. Similarly, we were loading out of a venue three floors up, and the lift wasn't big enough to get the staging decks in; I carried a couple of decks down the stairs but the boss then saw that I was struggling with it (which I honestly was - they're just too heavy if there are stairs involved!) and so he put me on loading flightcases into the lift instead. I don't kick up a fuss and complain that I'm being treated differently because I'm a girl, I just accept that the boss does know what I'm capable of and will use my abilities as he sees fit. I've found that if you don't play the "girl" card, and also don't cry sexism every thirty seconds, people will treat you fairly much the same as any other crew member regardless of gender.

Having said that, occasionally there are new crew members who, despite being far less experienced than me, will make the mistake of trying to tell me how to do my job, thinking that because I'm female I don't know what I'm doing. They don't generally do it more than once....


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## photoatdv (Dec 19, 2009)

That's the thing. I have no problem asking for help if something's too heavy or whatever. I did ask one of the stronger guys to help me with some stuck bolts a couple of times. The problem was they kept telling me stuff was too dangerous for me or when I went to help move something they'd say oh that's heavy wait for one of the guys.

I didn't get any more real annoying stuff after I took over for the guy... maybe that'll stick. It was just really annoying...


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## Lotos (Dec 19, 2009)

It's an attitude I can't abide, myself... Sexism has no place.

I've met my fair share of women who were bad techs... But I've also met my fair share of men who were bad techs... It had nothing to do with their sex... They were just bad techs...

I will basically throw crew at a task, irregardless of gender... I trust everyone I hire to say "Hey, I can't do this myself, can you get someone to help me." if it's too heavy/difficult/etc for them.
The girls I hire are hired because they're stellar techs, not because they're girls. The guys I hire are hired because they're stellar techs, not because they're guys...

It's something that will never be 'fixed'... Sadly... But we can all do our part to spread equality in the workplace.


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## soundman (Dec 20, 2009)

Be careful about taking peoples offers to help you as sexism. 

When you are working as a site supervisor in a union setting sometimes that is the polite way of saying you are doing to much work and you need to stop. Last time I was at McCormick Place I watch a 2nd electrician get chewed out for coiling some multi cable. The attitude is that if things are not getting done fast enough that supervisors have to work more hands should be on the call. 

The electrician happened to be female and she only got yelled at after the crew she was working with tried to politely get her to stop doing their work. Sometimes you need to look at the context of the comment before filing it as sexist.


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## Footer (Dec 20, 2009)

soundman said:


> Be careful about taking peoples offers to help you as sexism.
> 
> When you are working as a site supervisor in a union setting sometimes that is the polite way of saying you are doing to much work and you need to stop. Last time I was at McCormick Place I watch a 2nd electrician get chewed out for coiling some multi cable. The attitude is that if things are not getting done fast enough that supervisors have to work more hands should be on the call.
> 
> The electrician happened to be female and she only got yelled at after the crew she was working with tried to politely get her to stop doing their work. Sometimes you need to look at the context of the comment before filing it as sexist.



Anything that happens at McCormick place can not be taken as a way things should be done. I have never seen a more corrupt place to work in in my life. That place right there is one of the reasons that people dislike IA, Teamsters, and IBEW. There are few things I hate more then the attitude that "I am here to do X, I will not help with Z,W, or Y." I also hate the idea of working "too fast". That is not an excuse to yell at someone. That is an excuse to have a lazy crew. I have worked with many different unions over my years, from Laborers, IBEW, Pipefitters, Steel Workers, and Autoworkers and they all have this problem. Just do your work people! Not to mention in McCormick Place they have the idea that stagehands hang the truss and the lights, IBEW comes in and plugs them in, then stagehands focus it. Don't even get me started if something has to be taken on or off a truck. 

Ok... end rant. Back to the OP's topic...


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## jessamarie6 (Dec 21, 2009)

I feel like this issue is the constant struggle of women working in the industry. We face double standards and catch 22s a lot. You are told that in order to get any respect you must be able to exactly the same amount of work as your male counterparts, but at the same time you should accept help when offered by a "gentleman" and know your limits. You are told to speak up for yourself and assert your skills and your rights, but (and unfortunately some of the previous posts have proved my point here) speak up too much and people of will get frustrated at that woman who cries sexist at every turn when "I was just trying to help."

Over the course of my experience I've come up with some basic rules for myself. First if someone tries to take the hard physical labor away from me I let them. There is always another job that needs to be done and so I move on. In the end I have found that the guys who take my work end up continuing to do the mindless grunt labor, while I end up moving up by taking on jobs that involve more skill, intelligence, organization and leadership. 

Second, and this was a giant struggle for me, I have stopped accusing anyone of sexist behavior or mentioning that it is unusual for me to be a women working in the business while on the job. I have found that most men I work with will pay attention to me, listen and respect what I say when I bring up gender issues, but as soon as I do, they start to see me as "that feminist." I feel like I have to remind them that I am not only an expert on reforming the gender attitudes of the workplace, but that I am actually qualified as a technician. Instead I let the minor slip-ups and the inappropriate jokes role off a lot more than I should ever have to, and by doing my job, and doing it better than the people around me, I find I start to change minds instead of just behaviors. My goal is that if you, as a female technician, run into one of the men I have worked with in the past, they will give you more respect because they will have had a positive experience with me. 

Of course you can't let everything roll off, and I have had to confront a few serious issues head on, but since I let the minor issues go, I find people take me very seriously if a major problem does arise. 

We've come a long way I know (and for this I thank the women who came before me), but you've still chosen a business that has a long way to go before true equality is reached. On the plus side, there is a level of satisfaction to be gained from knowing that you have the opportunity to make a real, observable difference in the world we work in.


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## mstaylor (Dec 21, 2009)

I find that every hand has different abilities, strengths and weaknesses, both physical and intellectually. I tend to read people's ability level very well and will let them work to their limit but give them help when they need it. Some of my best employees are females including two supervisors. 
I have guys that can't lift as much as others but I don't see giving them an extra hand as a problem. By the same token I do the same with females. When we build a Mountain Stage I have several females that are toppers and I have guys that won't climb at all. My job is to use everyone to the best of their ability. 
Now I have situations that either a local or a show guy has stepped over the line and been insulting to a female. That is totally unacceptable and will cause the offender to go home. 
We had a monitor engineer that in the process of checking his monitors felt he had to make completely inappropriate remarks insulting all the females on my crew. I explained he needed to apologize. He chose to make a completely sarcastic BS apology that was as insulting as his original statements. In a nose to nose discussion he came to understanding that he was going to give a sincere sounding apology or he was going to the bus. I then explained to the road manager that at the end of he show I wanted him gone, no load out. My stagehands all wanted to kill him.


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## MrsFooter (Dec 22, 2009)

As a 23 year old woman in a crew head position, this is something that I struggle with often. My favorite story is when I had a woman working the merch tell me that I shouldn't lift a heavy box, because I would hurt my vagina and wouldn't be able to have babies when my time came. Uh-huh. And from another woman, too!

As my husband said earlier, sexual harassment is just a part of the industry. I work with some really great guys who are extremely thoughtful and respectful, but I've also worked with a lot of jerks who think that they can yell, "Hey babe, can you grab that for me?" and get results. Many of the road techs can't seem to hide the disgusted look on their face when they find out that not only is their house LD young, but a woman, too. It's unfortunately just a part of life.

My best advice I can offer you is to know your limits, both physically and emotionally. Don't be afraid to ask for help; if you try and take more than you can handle, not only can you hurt yourself but you'll look like an idiot, too. But I also have to disagree with Jessamarie. If you let guys take your work away from you, you're setting yourself up to be walked all over. Be polite, say thank you a lot, but be firm. "Thanks, but I've got it."

As far as the sexist comments, again, know your limits, but grow a thick skin. For the stupid little comments, have a witty and biting come back ready to put the jerk in his place. As much as it sucks, you can't go running to your superior screaming, "Sexual harassment!" every time someone gives you crap; that's a really great way to get the crew to resent you. But also know when to stand up for yourself; if someone touches you inappropriately or makes you really uncomfortable, don't be afraid to say something.

Lastly, and this sounds weird, but try and think about what it's like for some of the guys. Especially for the older techs, you may be the first woman they've worked with in a industry that values strength and where men have been free to curse and fart and scratch. They may not know how to treat you in such a rough environment. So while you need to make it clear what's NOT okay behavior, it's also kind-of your responsibility to show them what behavior is okay. Do you not mind cursing? Then swear like it's your job. Do the dirty jokes not bother you? Then have one of your own ready. (All within your own comfort zone, of course.) Show the guys that just because you're running around in a ponytail doesn't mean that they can't be themselves around you. Once they see that you're not a whiny little girl who's going to cry about broken nails, they're also more likely to see you as a technician, and not just a woman. You don't have to be a man, but you should be able to be one of the guys.

Good luck!


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## Wolf (Dec 22, 2009)

MrsFooter said:


> Show the guys that just because you're running around in a ponytail doesn't mean that they can't be themselves around you.



Hey Im a guy and I git a ponytail haha.

I think the comments made by others are all very good. When Im working with women I try to treat them just as anyone else. In most cases I will expect a women to be able to go load weights just like anyone else or you shouldn't be there. There are some exception however, sometimes women will be smaller than the men and for that reason not be able to do everything exactly the same this is just genetics BUT I have also worked with some very short men who because they are men are still expected to be able to do everything so women being short does not always affect me. (Right now I am working with a male gaffer who is somewhere around 5' and he still does just as much as everyone else on crew). Sometimes when I am responsible for delegating task I will give a tack to a women by saying "Can you, Are you able to, ect..." but in most cases i expect the women to able to do the tasks because they are there. I usually don't have a problem if a women does ask for help because at some point every one is going to need help, now if on every task they ask for help because they are a women they yes I am going to have a problem with that.

Story- Last year there was a women that I worked with who said they were not comfortable loading weights, well ok I don't want ANYONE loading weights who isn't comfortable loading weights up there throwing bricks on the arbor. So I was then going to have her up there passing the bricks to the loader but she wasn't even going to do that, she then said they were to heavy for her. This did frustrate me because I then had to move her to the deck and have someone else go help load weights. Everything was planned and I had people where I they would be best used.

To sum up I think what Mrs.Footer said is very valid and if you are there be open with what you can do from the very being, and be able to take on some of the heavier task. This all of course just how I look at things.


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## Dionysus (Dec 22, 2009)

MrsFooter said:


> As a 23 year old woman in a crew head position, this is something that I struggle with often. My favorite story is when I had a woman working the merch tell me that I shouldn't lift a heavy box, because I would hurt my vagina and wouldn't be able to have babies when my time came. Uh-huh. And from another woman, too!
> 
> As my husband said earlier, sexual harassment is just a part of the industry. I work with some really great guys who are extremely thoughtful and respectful, but I've also worked with a lot of jerks who think that they can yell, "Hey babe, can you grab that for me?" and get results. Many of the road techs can't seem to hide the disgusted look on their face when they find out that not only is their house LD young, but a woman, too. It's unfortunately just a part of life.
> 
> ...



A agree with you completely.

Our industry is often filled with dirty jokes, swearing, and guys just carrying on as would be inappropriate in many industries. It's a hands-on "jack or jill of all trades" kind of job.

When working with females, I try to gauge their abilities the same way I would a man. Some girls just can't do some things, just like some guys can't. When I ask a really big guy to carry the biggest thing on stage instead of the girl, it's because he needed something to do just as much as the girl did and he is less likely to hurt himself. Hes not an average man, he's built to carry big things so its what I ask of him.
If ANYONE does not want to do something, I don't make them do it.
If I feel ANYONE needs help, it's offered, male or female.

If I don't think I should carry something heavy, and a female is going to be carrying it, I offer help (just as I would a guy in the same situation). All too often people in this industry try to un-safely carry things that are just too heavy or awkward for one person.

The guys just want to be guys, and sometimes its very annoying if there is a greenhorn girl there who is stopping them from being themselves.

Some of the best techs I know are females. Then again quite a few of them are making dirty jokes, burping, and so on along with the guys.
Some of them do it just to make sure the guys feel comfortable around them, and a couple of them are just like that anyways.

I've noticed the exact same thing in construction. Guys doing "manly work" want to act like "guys", and sometimes they feel disrupted by "estrogen" in the workplace. They feel awkward, don't know how to act anymore, and really don't want to have to change the way they act but feel they have to.

If this behaviour does not bother you, be sure to let them know that you are okay with it and you can save a lot of trouble as MrsFooter said.

It's a problem in the workplace, but with most of the guys the behaviour is NOT INTENDED as sexual harassment.


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## Anvilx (Dec 22, 2009)

The wonderful (also horrible) thing about the internet is that we are who ever we want to be.
photoatdv if it makes you feel better I had no idea you were a woman, zip, zero nada, nothing. To extrapolate on that I think that Gen Y is so much more accepting of differences. I have to agree with some of the other guy though we are getting mixed messages. _Wait if you are the same as me then me then why am i supposed to treat you differently._

Hopefully this isn't to deep for the booth but the following is best interpreted as free form poetry.


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## len (Dec 22, 2009)

Footer said:


> Anything that happens at McCormick place can not be taken as a way things should be done. I have never seen a more corrupt place to work in in my life. That place right there is one of the reasons that people dislike IA, Teamsters, and IBEW. There are few things I hate more then the attitude that "I am here to do X, I will not help with Z,W, or Y." I also hate the idea of working "too fast". That is not an excuse to yell at someone. That is an excuse to have a lazy crew. I have worked with many different unions over my years, from Laborers, IBEW, Pipefitters, Steel Workers, and Autoworkers and they all have this problem. Just do your work people! Not to mention in McCormick Place they have the idea that stagehands hang the truss and the lights, IBEW comes in and plugs them in, then stagehands focus it. Don't even get me started if something has to be taken on or off a truck.
> 
> Ok... end rant. Back to the OP's topic...



I don't work at McCormick Place, either as an electrician or as an outsider, as the work rules and costs are quite Byzantine with all the McPier run properties. But the Chicago Tribune has been running some articles on why they are losing so many big trade shows. It's partly the unions, but a lot has to do with how much things cost in general. A pot of coffee delivered to a show booth can run to over $100. 

Anyway, back to the topic.


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## SHARYNF (Dec 23, 2009)

No being there to actually see had hear what was done and said, I can only give an opinion from my own experience and personal feelings

I have no problem with men offering to help me with lifting and "heavy work", maybe I'm just from a different age, but in my opinion and experience and I believe based on good science, when it come to lifting muscle power, men have the advantage.

If the situation were one where I was moving something and was in a dangerous or awkward situation where I had underestimated my strength and then the men stood by and laughed, or made snide remarks, the I would view it as in appropriate and sexist. 

I think it if very easy to get overly sensitive based on our own insecurity when members of the opposite sex offer assistance. 

IF on the other hand the task was mental or managerial, and then the comments were meant to demean or question my ability, I would be quite upset.

In todays society we send a lot of mixed signals, and IMO sometimes misinterpret things. 

So from my perspective, mentally, managerially and technical ability, we all have the potential to be equal, sadly that does not mean we are all equal in ability, but sex plays no role here

Physically, that is another matter, in sheer physical strength in lifting, lugging etc, while I think of my self as being physically fit, many of the guys definitely have the edge

Sometimes I think that we have a tendency to interpret an offer of help as a sign of helplessness, or a need to offer good service as being a servant. 

Sharyn


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