# Pyro's in the house?



## DiscoBoxer (Dec 17, 2010)

I am a licensed display operator located in Wisconsin. I have many years of experience doing pyrotechnics for indoor events as well as many many outdoor large scale displays. Also a certified Display Operator trainer. I wanted to do a feeler on the forum to see how many of us are out there?

If your not an operator, please feel free to list some of your experiences with pyrotechnics to get a dialog going. Thanks!

I assume the special effects forum would be the best place to post, let me know if not.


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## shiben (Dec 17, 2010)

Im not an operator of this stuff, but I am interested in exploring it. How do you get involved in pyrotechnics as a career field as it were?


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## cprted (Dec 17, 2010)

Another licensed pyrotechnician here. Looking at getting my display fireworks ticket in the near future.


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## MNicolai (Dec 17, 2010)

I've mastered this really good way to use fireworks and black powder to blow up watermelons in my backyard, and this one time, my friends and I did this really cool thing with my neighbor's mailbox -- so yea, you could say I'm a qualified pyro operator.


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## dramatech (Dec 17, 2010)

I have loaded and fired pyro in a number of shows, all in theme parks, where I worked under their license, and their certifications testing. The longest was a show that was performed 4 times a day for 10 months.
I have also loaded pyro for 4th of July events, and on several occasions repaired the detonators.
I have also custom built firing devices/detonators for a number of shows in 3 different theme parks.


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## MNBallet (Dec 17, 2010)

DiscoBoxer said:


> I am a licensed display operator located in Wisconsin. I have many years of experience doing pyrotechnics for indoor events as well as many many outdoor large scale displays. Also a certified Display Operator trainer. I wanted to do a feeler on the forum to see how many of us are out there?
> 
> If your not an operator, please feel free to list some of your experiences with pyrotechnics to get a dialog going. Thanks!
> 
> I assume the special effects forum would be the best place to post, let me know if not.


 
yep......licensed in Minnesota, indoor. not outdoor 4th of july stuff though.


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## gafftaper (Dec 17, 2010)

I'm sure there are a lot of people reading this wondering, "how do I get a job like that?" So tell us a little about the process of getting licensed. I'm sure it varies from state to state. What are the differences in licenses? How do you get a job shooting the big stuff on the 4th?


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## DuckJordan (Dec 18, 2010)

MNicolai said:


> I've mastered this really good way to use fireworks and black powder to blow up watermelons in my backyard, and this one time, my friends and I did this really cool thing with my neighbor's mailbox -- so yea, you could say I'm a qualified pyro operator.


 
I really hope your joking, And a +1 to learning more about becoming a Licensed Pyro.


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## DiscoBoxer (Dec 18, 2010)

gafftaper said:


> I'm sure there are a lot of people reading this wondering, "how do I get a job like that?" So tell us a little about the process of getting licensed. I'm sure it varies from state to state. What are the differences in licenses? How do you get a job shooting the big stuff on the 4th?




shiben said:


> Im not an operator of this stuff, but I am interested in exploring it. How do you get involved in pyrotechnics as a career field as it were?


 
My suggestion for those that want to get involved is to check out the PGI- Pyrotechnics Guild International at: Fireworks

PGI is an international club that has a focus on amateur and profesional pyrotechnics. In the states specifically, they have become one of the best recognized resources to "becoming legal" by offering the Display Operators Course. This course is highly sought after by many AHJ (Authorities Having Jurisdiction) such as Municipalities, Fire, Police, Coast Gaurd, etc. as well as professional display providers. You can obtain your certification through PGI at their annual convention which moves to various states in the union.

Also look into some local pyro Guild's such as the WPAG-Wisconsin Pyrotechnic Arts Guild at: Home Page who may be closer to you and host the PGI Display Operators Certification class. I am a current member, as well as a former board member of this club and it is the 2nd largest pyro guild in the U.S.

Here are a list of some others:

Bluegrass Pyrotechnics Guild (Kentucky, Indiana, Ohio, Tennessee and surrounding)
Crackerjacks Fireworks Club (Virginia and East Coast)
Heartland Pyrotechnic Association (Tri-State Northern IL, and Southwest MI)
Iowa Pyrotechnic Association (Iowa and surrounding)
Missouri Pyrotechnics Association (Missouri and Southern IL)
MPAG-Michigan Pyrotechnic Arts Guild (Michigan)
New Hampshire Pyrotechnics Association (New England)
Northern Lighters (Minnesota)
Northern Lights Pyros Club (Northeast and Mid-Atlantic)
Northwest Pyrotechnic Arts Association (Northwestern)
Ohio Pyrotechnics Arts Guild (Ohio)
Oregon Fireworks Association (Oregon)
Pennslyvania Pyrotechnic Artist (Pennslyvania)
Prarie Thunder Pyro (North Dakota)
Pyrotechnic Artist of Texas (Texas)
Rocky Mountain Pyrotechnics Guild (South East)
Stumptown Shooters (Iowa and surrounding)
Western New York Pyrotechnic Association (New York)
Western Pyrotechnic Association (AZ, NV and western U.S.)

I believe that all of these clubs offer the PGI certification and can be a great resource for entering the professional field as well as amateur manufacturing (SAFELY/LEGALLY). Now, the laws can greatly vary from state to state. While PGI Cert. is not required by the FED and most states, many local municiaplities will request that at least the "Lead Operator" has it.

Many display companies experience their busy season around the 4th of July and are always looking for help. For instance a company I work with alot, sources out over 250 displays on the 4th alone. Some displays require over 100 people and some less than 10. Call them a couple months before hand to see if they will bring you in. It helps if you already have the PGI cert, but some companies do not require it and will train in-house. Because companies vary so much, and the risk factor is so high, I strongly encourage a proper certification and the PGI one is typically less than $75 and can be done and tested in one day. However, you will need to work a few shows under a certified "Lead Operator" as a part of the course completion. You must be 18yrs or older. I have accepted many "cold-calls" from guys wanting to help. If they sound responsible and meet some basic requirements (18yrs age, no felony, etc), than I ask them to come in.

This is the most basic and easy route. If you want to operate as your own "entity", than it becomes much more complex with many more steps at the Federal and State level. The biggest challenge in this category is providing Secure Legal Storage, HAZMAT Compliance, and Insurance. If anyone wants more details on this, I can help. Just PM me.

Just so that everyone knows, doing pro fireworks is hard and dirty work. For outdoor displays, mortar racks are heavy and can weigh a couple hundred pounds. There are shows I do that require hundreds of racks with mortar sizes form 3" to 16" in diameter. Plan for an exhausting day, but a very rewarding one. If you are fearful of guns or the like, than I wouldn't consider pyro. These types of fireworks are loud when ejecting from the mortars and the concussion can be felt from 30+ feet away. Not a job for the meek. If you like booms and firey bright flashes, than this may be your gig. You must be responsible and aware of safety at all times. Hundreds if not tens of thousands of lives count on every single person on the shoot site to be aware of their safety. To do indoor or proximate effects beyond your standard theatrical effects (flash pots, concussions, etc), usually requires more experience in the field. Not all, but most companies will want you to have worked on outdoor events and have experience with electrical firing systems, as a min. before considering putting you on an event like this. You must have a clear understanding of the product specs, fallout, air quality, site security, and NFPA rules before you can master proximate.

While some "Pyros" have a past that includes doing stupid things with fireworks out of ignorance and just plain fun, it can all turn south very quickly with results that last (or shorten) a lifetime, and I would not encourage illegal use and/or modification of devices beyond their intended purpose.

Also, like most jobs in the field of entertainment, you are very likely not going to get rich and will be paid little. You must enjoy it to grow a career. But it is one heck of an experience to do at least once, even better to do it often.


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## DiscoBoxer (Dec 18, 2010)

MNicolai said:


> I've mastered this really good way to use fireworks and black powder to blow up watermelons in my backyard, and this one time, my friends and I did this really cool thing with my neighbor's mailbox -- so yea, you could say I'm a qualified pyro operator.


 
MNicolai, hoping you are joking on the "qualified" part if this is the extent of your experience. While I am sure you may have had great fun, this type of thing is widely frowned upon in the industry. Unfortunately, there are many people and kids who have done similar things who thought it was of little risk, and have died because of it or have severely hurt themselves or others.

In return, the law has made it much more difficult (in many cases justified, some not) to be able to do pyrotechnics. Everytime there is a report of a child just getting burned by a sparkler because their parent was irresponsible in some state, the CPSC tries to do their best to influence more and more regulation on an already heavily regulated industry. It then requires more time and resources for those of us that choose to be 100% legal and 110% safe to find new ways to just stay in business. 

This is a prime example for why I strongly encourage a proper certification, even if the display comapany does not require it.


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## MNicolai (Dec 18, 2010)

DiscoBoxer said:


> MNicolai, hoping you are joking on the "qualified" part if this is the extent of your experience. While I am sure you may have had great fun, this type of thing is widely frowned upon in the industry. Unfortunately, there are many people and kids who have done similar things who thought it was of little risk, and have died because of it or have severely hurt themselves or others.
> 
> In return, the law has made it much more difficult (in many cases justified, some not) to be able to do pyrotechnics. Everytime there is a report of a child just getting burned by a sparkler because their parent was irresponsible in some state, the CPSC tries to do their best to influence more and more regulation on an already heavily regulated industry. It then requires more time and resources for those of us that choose to be 100% legal and 110% safe to find new ways to just stay in business.
> 
> This is a prime example for why I strongly encourage a proper certification, even if the display comapany does not require it.


 
While I'm glad to serve as an example, that was pure sarcasm to illuminate the line between "the guy who thinks he knows what he's doing" and a honest-to-goodness licensed pyro operator. I have no desire to be the next guy to set a nightclub on fire or to blow his own arm off at a gig (or in my backyard for that matter).


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## venuetech (Dec 18, 2010)

MNicolai said:


> While I'm glad to serve as an example, that was pure sarcasm to illuminate the line between "the guy who thinks he knows what he's doing" and a honest-to-goodness licensed pyro operator. I have no desire to be the next guy to set a nightclub on fire or to blow his own arm off at a gig (or in my backyard for that matter).



Well I am not shipping any watermelons to Wisconsin. (just to be safe)


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## porkchop (Dec 18, 2010)

I'm a licensed indoor operator on a touring show, adds another twist to dealing with regulations.


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## FatherMurphy (Dec 18, 2010)

It's worth noting that in addition to the PGI info above, the US Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms requires licensing and background checks for all personnel manufacturing or detonating explosives. Part of the post-9/11 Patriot Act, the rules were written with the demolition and mining industries in mind, but ended up covering pyro as well. Gone are the days of Pyropak A/B flash powder mixed in a bottle and poured into a flash pot... The act of mixing the two powders now counts as 'manufacturing', and flipping the switch for the pot now counts as 'detonating', both of which now require federal paper in your pocket.


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## DiscoBoxer (Dec 18, 2010)

FatherMurphy said:


> It's worth noting that in addition to the PGI info above, the US Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms requires licensing and background checks for all personnel manufacturing or detonating explosives. Part of the post-9/11 Patriot Act, the rules were written with the demolition and mining industries in mind, but ended up covering pyro as well. Gone are the days of Pyropak A/B flash powder mixed in a bottle and poured into a flash pot... The act of mixing the two powders now counts as 'manufacturing', and flipping the switch for the pot now counts as 'detonating', both of which now require federal paper in your pocket.


 
To provide more detail on the BATFE license, not everyone working on a display is required to have a license. But they must be under the supervision of a license holder or an "Employee Possessor". If they are working under persons with these two types of clearance, they must still meet the same requirments, less the background investigation. But the License holder is responsible for that person's actions.

The PGI as well as all of the other regional clubs have had to request clarification on this BATFE requirement, because all of them use their license as a canopy to cover all member manufacturing and discharging of Class B (1.3g) material. Without this allowance by the BATFE, none of the clubs could exist because this is one of the key benefits to being a member of such clubs......to provide a safe and legal venue for manufacture and use for amatuers. Display companies also tend to follow the same exception, even when "in commerce". They will list people on the license as "Employee Possessors", if they are lead operators, transporters, and have a need to work without supervision.

Many "theatrical" or proximate effects will try to avoid the hassle of the Federal License and DOT regulations by reducing charges and classifying their product as 1.4g (consumer) instead of 1.3g. This practice is heavily debated and still receives much scrutiny by the FED. You are correct in that the BATFE does classify the mixing of binary (flash) concussion mixes as manufacturing and you must have a license to do it. Which is understandable since flash is one of the most dangerous pyrotechnic materials to work with, especially if you do not know what you are doing.


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## DiscoBoxer (Dec 18, 2010)

MNicolai said:


> While I'm glad to serve as an example, that was pure sarcasm to illuminate the line between "the guy who thinks he knows what he's doing" and a honest-to-goodness licensed pyro operator. I have no desire to be the next guy to set a nightclub on fire or to blow his own arm off at a gig (or in my backyard for that matter).


 
Sorry, I got the sarcasm but wasn't sure if that was your intent since it shows only text without emotion. I do a "pyromusical" display every year near your area for an outdoor arts/concert in Mequon. You should come out to meet in person so that I will get your sense of humor in the future. LOL! 

The famous Great White nightclub situation was a tragic one that has severely tarnished the industry. The band member who setup and fired the effects was an idiot because he used the wrong effects with the wrong specs, in the wrong venue. Also, he was not licensed or qualified to do what he was attempting. To add fuel to the fire, the folks running the nightclub were fools for not having proper egress by covering and chaining the exits to control unauthorized entry, and allowing such an activity to occur without proper research.


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## DiscoBoxer (Dec 18, 2010)

porkchop said:


> I'm a licensed indoor operator on a touring show, adds another twist to dealing with regulations.


 
Porkchop, I imagine so. Are you using 1.4g or 1.3g effects? How do you deal with overnight storage away from a magazine?


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## MPowers (Dec 18, 2010)

When I started in this silly business, filling a hollowed out fuse with flash powder and putting it in a porcelain socket was an approved method taught in colleges and written up in textbooks. We've come a long way. Used to be a shooter, long before that term was invented, but not any more. I don't get a call to shoot or design an FX often enough to make keeping current on the various certifications and liscences 
needed today. I still design FX but refer clients to a local pyro company for execution and shooting. Got into pyro courtesy of my Uncle Sam. Combat Engineers and demolitions in Nam in the 60's. As one of my jobs, I blew up disabled or immobilized equipment, things that were too damaged or located where salvage was impractical. The goal was to leave nothing behind that could aid or be used by the enemy. I got real good a blowing things up. When I returned stateside, one of my first jobs was with a small family owned FX company in San Bernadino. Steve Hawkins and Sons. Problem was the sons wanted to get into computers, not FX and the company vanished in the early 70's. We did a lot of lift charges and fireballs for B- (or worse) films. The one cool thing we did was two parallel rows of palm trees, clipped clean about 20' high as a fighter plane flew between them. No CGI then, we had to make it look like the wing tips were clipping the trees. Not realistic you say! Well DUH! Realism wasn't the idea. Believability was. They trucked in 50 palms, about 30' tall and set them along a road about 10' wider than the plane's wing span. We made a 2" cut on the road side of the trees and put two wraps of det cord around them at the cut point. We then attached 1/8" black GAC about 4' above the cut and put roughly 200 lbs tension at 90 degrees to the road. The pilot made about a dozen passes along the road about 10' above the trees and then one between them at height. More guts/nerve than I ever had. We were shooting at 4:00 am just after dawn when winds were at zero. We had one take, make or break. The ignition device was a highly sophisticated device called a "Nail Board". State of the art timing device for machine gun hits and other tight sequential triggered events at that time. for those who don't know what a Nail Board is, it is a 2x4, as long as needed, with 16d nails driven through at precise intervals. Each nail is connected by wire to the single device it is to trigger. Another nail or steel rod held by the operator is attached to a 24VDC power source. When the hand held nail is drug across the row of nails in the board, it sets off the devices in a rapid but extremely even sequence. The last three trial passes of the plane, we had light bulbs on the palms connected to the nail board and the film crew did quick rushes for us to compare plane position with the lights to get timing down as best possible. Final pass for the take, the plane was flying just above stall speed, the pilot was perfect and IMHO it was pretty darn awesome. In the film they played it back at about 3 time the speed so it looked like the plane was at top speed. If you didn't have time to notice the trees fell a bit faster than gravity could account for, it looked pretty good. Never saw the completed film, but we did see a print of the road sequence. Villain is racing down the road in jeep, lots of shooting, flash/bang, gasoline lifts etc all around (my part of the job). Plane drops down to the tree row but doesn't shoot til the heroine breaks free and jumps from the jeep. Then the plane drops between the trees and starts strafing. Cut to the trees and plane, trees falling apart as the plane come through, cut back to the jeep, dummy jeep now pulled by a cable over a 15lb black powder lift with 3 lbs of corse iron filings, under 80 gallons of gasoline. BIG BOOM!!! Looked pretty cool.

Still was mixing and making my own flash powder, bullet hits and gerb FX in the middle 90's but the final straw was the station fire and 9/11. The results were good in that it wound up chasing the idiots and pretenders out, but it also made it very hard for the skilled but infrequent shooter to continue for economic and practical reasons. Harder now and a darn site more restrictive, but I have to concur that it is better and safer for our industry. Would I like to shoot now, of course! Do I think I have the skill and knowledge to pull off a safe shoot? Darn Right! Would I do it? Not on your life. It's a different world now.


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## ptero (Dec 18, 2010)

FatherMurphy said:


> It's worth noting that in addition to the PGI info above, the US Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms requires licensing and background checks for all personnel manufacturing or detonating explosives. Part of the post-9/11 Patriot Act, the rules were written with the demolition and mining industries in mind, but ended up covering pyro as well. Gone are the days of Pyropak A/B flash powder mixed in a bottle and poured into a flash pot... The act of mixing the two powders now counts as 'manufacturing', and flipping the switch for the pot now counts as 'detonating', both of which now require federal paper in your pocket.


 

Mostly, YEP! At my theatre, we have a Type 19 Manufacturing license, acquired 5 or more years ago. I am one of two "Responsible Persons", plus we have a handful of "Employee Possessor"s. I mix A/B flash powder routinely for theatrical use in flashpots. I also fire all flashpots. We are inspected about once a year, always by surprise. They have yet to be interested in how we use the product - it's all about how it is stored once mixed, and about acquisition and paperwork records. The Electric Matches are also controlled and covered under this license. The match and powder vendors require hard copy of the license w/original sig before shipping.

I recall one inspection was in process in an office and we set off the fire alarm with multiple flashpots in the Scottish Play, clearing the bldg. For the Agent/inspector, it didn't matter, he didn't care. He clearly felt that was not in his purview. He sat outside with his briefcase on his lap and continued working on paperwork as Firemen cleared the issue and life went on. btw, the University had changed the air handling in the bldg w/o notifying anyone and accepted the rap for causing this. We'd been running over two weeks w/no problems. Plus we had done testing as we put the show in to evaluate any sensor issues.

But, I am not aware of the need for 'paper'/licensing regarding detonating in theatrical use. Can you expand on that? I do the license app every 3 years(THAT'S a handful of paper!) and have had quite a bit of discussion w/BATF&E folks. It has never come up. They know very well I am the buyer, mixer and shooter and have never had any interest beyond acquisition and storage. That includes no interest in methodology - I could be using the most primitive methods. No. I'm not, but....

Anyway, I'd be interested in any info about this - back to the Orange Book? Or is it covered elsewhere than the Orange Book? Hmmmm.... Thanks for any information.


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## ptero (Dec 18, 2010)

MPowers said:


> When I started in this silly business, filling a hollowed out fuse with flash powder and putting it in a porcelain socket was an approved method taught in colleges and written up in textbooks.


 
Hey Michael. You slipped as I was writing. Wasn't sure if details were ok... Yep, fuses, stranded copper/gator clips and nail boards. We (well 'they' in this case) made a live nail board with a 2x4 size length of solid plexi, w/many holes bored and contacts installed. The holes got loaded (Michael!) and sweeping the contact board across that got a pretty good machine gun. 


MPowers said:


> the final straw was the station fire and 9/11.



Oh, I hear ya. Happily, I can keep what we do under pretty close control. It's mainly the same old Marley pot year after year. Decade after decade! That's pretty much the biggest I'll go and serves as a basis for discussion for any other show's use of it.

Merry Christmas.


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## DiscoBoxer (Dec 18, 2010)

ptero said:


> Anyway, I'd be interested in any info about this - back to the Orange Book? Or is it covered elsewhere than the Orange Book? Hmmmm.... Thanks for any information.



If you have a Manufacturing License, than you are covered to discharge (at least by the BATFE). Same also goes if you were to have an Import License. The BATFE prefers you to not hold multiple licenses in a like classification unless neccessary. The thought is that if you manufacture or import, you will need to test/fire your own product and they allow this under your current clearance. 

I have made and used many nailboards in my earlier pyro days. They were some of the most convienent devices for sequencing ques without the need to program. Now we use the FireOne system which has a resolution of 1/10 of a second and can be programmed via computer along with timecode. It is also capable of stand alone operation for firing a programmed script and pre-loaded into the main board. Technologies have changed but for the better. It's nice to be able to do a continuity check from the console of 1000's of e-matches and quickly find the bad ones without having to break out the Fluke!


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## ptero (Dec 19, 2010)

DiscoBoxer said:


> If you have a Manufacturing License, than you are covered to discharge (at least by the BATFE). Same also goes if you were to have an Import License. The BATFE prefers you to not hold multiple licenses in a like classification unless neccessary. The thought is that if you manufacture or import, you will need to test/fire your own product and they allow this under your current clearance.


 
Thanks. I was pretty sure we are good to go. 

more about permissions: While not part of the institution, we are in a University bldg on a State University campus. We have a great relationship with the University at all levels. We do 'notifications of usage' and 'show and tells' for the campus fire marshall. We also invite peridoc visits from the surrounding townships(3) fire officials as they are the ones responding to any real issues. They all came out for the initial magazine inspection and approval. That was a party! 

Beyond that, Michigan doesn't have any Licenses or Rules for what we do. And because we are on State land, any Township licensing or rules do not apply, there are none for our level of use anyway. One township does inspect what the big boys do - w/all kinds of national tours @big venue. Not sure of their reqmts.

Thanks again...


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## porkchop (Dec 19, 2010)

DiscoBoxer said:


> Porkchop, I imagine so. Are you using 1.4g or 1.3g effects? How do you deal with overnight storage away from a magazine?


 
We use 1.4g effects, and most arena's have a room in backstage that the AHJ has said is an acceptable place to store pryotechnic effects. We also have rolling magazines that are the size on a small flight case that we store the effects in, even if they are in the accepted pyro room. Overseas pyro rooms get a lot more sparse so we end up really depending on our rolling mags for safe storage.


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## mstaylor (Dec 19, 2010)

In my state a local shooter is required to insure all the local requirements are met. I have worked with Porkchop's company many times. I have assisted many licensed Pyro guys with indoor and outdoor shows. I have never been licensed but I have a couple of good friends that have contracts for weekly shoots.


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## DiscoBoxer (Dec 19, 2010)

ptero said:


> Thanks. I was pretty sure we are good to go.
> 
> more about permissions: While not part of the institution, we are in a University bldg on a State University campus. We have a great relationship with the University at all levels. We do 'notifications of usage' and 'show and tells' for the campus fire marshall. We also invite peridoc visits from the surrounding townships(3) fire officials as they are the ones responding to any real issues. They all came out for the initial magazine inspection and approval. That was a party!
> 
> ...


 
Ptero, I will research this further as I cannot say definitively, but I am under the impression that registered education institutions are exempt from the BATFE requirement to have a license. My orange book is at the office so I will have to check online a little deeper for a current version. I do not know how the institution "registers", it may just be that they provide proof of their legal status when an inspection/incident were to occur. But don't take that as gospel. Even so, it's a good thing you have the license because many distributors may have an issue with you not having one despite that it may be legal.

Wisconsin is the same as Michigan, whereas they do not have additional requirements at the state level. Michigan and Wisconsin are considered to be two of the most "firework friendly" states. This is why I think they have the two largest & most successful regional guilds next to PGI, and also another reason why there are more licensed pyrotechnicians per capata in the two states than any other.

Having a great relationship with the local fire departments is a great thing. In most parts of the country, fireworks are a seasonal thing and many times you will run into departments that have little to no experience working with pyrotechnics and their guard is up......especially with indoor. Many times they will have little understanding of the NFPA codes and will mis-enforce them. Creating a proactive and open conversation helps to establish trust if your business is new to the department. Sounds like you have been working with them for awhile. Good work!


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## ptero (Dec 20, 2010)

re: Educational Registering for use:

Interesting. I don't know the scoop on that. While we are on a University campus, we are now a separate stand-alone 501(c)3 non-profit and not a part of the institution in any way. I don't have anything to help shed light on that - no experience there. And yeah, as you alluded to, I don't know how that helps a vendor who requires a signed license on file in order to supply powder or matches. I THINK the ATF requires that of vendors. 

Just as the newer ATF rules were coming into force (mmm, some 8 years ago), the University decided they could not support the theatre, LORT B at the time, and dropped the operation after 35 years. Some of us were able to regroup and continue as a separate organization, but we rent the space. Before the newer rules, it had been pretty easy to get powder and matches so we had not needed to pursue licensing or exemptions. 

Yes, I have a deep history here back to the early 80's. That certainly does help. btw, even though they haven't officially adopted it, we use the NFPA 1126: "Standard for the Use of Pyrotechnics Before a Proximate Audience" as a basis for our notifications, spelling everything out for them. They appreciate the complete picture that creates in describing what we are doing. 

I have found it rather absurd that with all of this regulation and oversight about acquisition and mixed powder storage, they don't seem to care how unmixed powder is stored. At least that is our experience. I was instructed by an Agent to remove our unmixed A/B bottle sets from the magazine and store them elsewhere with ZERO guidance or interest in whether it would be secure in any way - simply not an issue. ...out loose on shelving would have been alright with him! Nor do they care how the products are put to use. Well, I suppose they would care eventually, after some 'incident' that drew their attention. 

Anyway, Thanks for the comments!


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## DiscoBoxer (Dec 21, 2010)

Binary mix is very stable in A/B form and maybe that's why. Usually when explosive components in their "inert" state are stored in seperate containers but in the same area, in small quantities, the BATFE doesn't make a fuss when you hold a manufacturer's license. Binary flash is made with heavy magnesium and is also considered to be a "low-power" flash unlike some of the "German Dark" aluminum/perchlorate mixes used in large salutes.

When the oxidizer is mixed with the metallic fuel, you now have a shock, static and heat sensitive material. I can understand them having a "relaxed" perspective on the unmixed binarys, but I would not feel comfortable just leaving them out.....especially when they usually have "stupid-simple" instructions right on the bottles for mixing. As you may have learned, the BATFE can sometimes be a major pain when it comes to the rules. Many things you would think are common sense, they don't care about, while they can make a huge deal out of other very minor-risk type issues.

My partners and I have 16 large magazines. Most of them are converted 40' shipping containers while some are actual cinder buildings. Our facility is located in rural area, with video surveilance. Each magazine has a very robust and secure locking mechanism that the BATFE agents have accepted for over 20yrs. This year they have a new chief agent who is trying to force us to change the system. The cost of materials and labor to do so on all my magazines is approx $10k. I have applied for a variance, so we will see what happens. For my day job, I am an engineer and I would love the opportunity to prove to them that the system we have is plenty sufficient.

For us, most of our business is for outdoor municipal events and such. We order large quantities of flash based salutes in bulk. If I have 200 cases of 3" bulk salutes and 200 seperate cases of 3" peony effect shells in a type 4 magazine, it's illegal. But then if I mix the two together and have 400 cases of 50/50 mixed salutes and peonys in the same mag, it's legal. If the container where to ignite, there would be no difference in the size and damage of the blast, despite the config change.....but it's legal and that's what the agents want to see.


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## CrisCole (Dec 28, 2010)

Well, I'm not licensed, but I did take a class once that certifies me to operate minor pyro. I've done some powder mixing in my day. This was of course the day when we used our own black powder and not flash powder to get the smoke pot effects. 

I've done some minor pyro (flash/smoke pots, gerbs, minor fire fx) and I got to intern for a group who used indoor fireworks. Watching them set that up was the most fascinating thing I ever saw...


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## DiscoBoxer (Dec 28, 2010)

CrisCole said:


> I've done some powder mixing in my day. This was of course the day when we used our own black powder and not flash powder to get the smoke pot


 
We still manufacture black powder for use in many of our effects. It's cheaper once setup to do so, and you can control the burn time. For a hobby, I make black powder end-burning rockets that are far more powerful than those made by companies such as "Estes". The down side is that stick rockets can have unpredictable flight paths, that we rarely can use them in public displays.

I too enjoy watching other companies setup there display's. It provides an opportunity to learn various techniques as well as adding to the mystery of what you might see.


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## skapp (Jan 11, 2011)

Ohio licensed Exhibitor's Assistant here. Work under a friend of mine who is licensed in Outdoor, Indoor, and Flames...all 3 separate licenses here in OH. 

I've worked primarily outdoor shoots but have done a good bit of work on a few arena tours with a certain rock orchestra that tours around Christmas  So with that I've worked on multiple types of flame units as well as just about every indoor effect that exists. 

Toyed around with taking the State Test to become an Exhibitor myself but haven't had much time to do it yet. Maybe someday!


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## DiscoBoxer (Jan 13, 2011)

skapp said:


> Toyed around with taking the State Test to become an Exhibitor myself but haven't had much time to do it yet. Maybe someday!



I would.....however, the costs in operating independent can be large if you intend to do so publicly. Insurance is a killer unless you have established a clientele that can support it. I have heard that Ohio has some unique regulations at the state level. I have several friends who display and distribute there.

I have done "pyromusicals" to a certain rock orchestra's music for a few events but never with them live. I would love the opportunity though!


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## ArthurRiot (Jan 13, 2011)

I got my license last year for indoor use, so I could be responsible for a few smaller things in a show (flash pots, double shot canes and the like). I need to go to a class of some sort in order to re-up my license, which is a great excuse. 

This is one of those fields where getting the certification puts you in demand for certain jobs, and makes you valuable. Not many have it.


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## skapp (Jan 18, 2011)

DiscoBoxer said:


> I would.....however, the costs in operating independent can be large if you intend to do so publicly. Insurance is a killer unless you have established a clientele that can support it.


That's the truth! However, we have been lucky enough to work under 3 seperate large parent companies who cover the insurance, product, storage, and majority of the gear and equipment. 




DiscoBoxer said:


> I have heard that Ohio has some unique regulations at the state level.


 
Yes we do...Ohio has some laws at state level but then refers to the NFPA Red Book for most. Then you get some Fire Departments in the state who like to expand on the NFPA Red Book rules to make up their own insane regulations. 



DiscoBoxer said:


> I have done "pyromusicals" to a certain rock orchestra's music for a few events but never with them live. I would love the opportunity though!



The thing that is nice in Ohio is you are required to have a state licensed exhibitor at every show that has pyro. The majority of the touring pyro companies do not license their guys in all 50 states so in states requiring it such as Ohio, they just have the venue hire a local. This is how I got involved in the shows that I have. Some guys simply show up, deal with the local fire inspector and approve or disapprove setups and collect the paycheck. Some are far more hands on and work hand and hand with the tour pyro as it's their butt in the end of something goes bad!


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## Goph704 (Jan 20, 2011)

Hi, Gopher here. I'm primarily a lighting tech and designer in N.C. but I've got a decent Pyro background. I worked in Ohio under another Pyro's license as an assistant Operator for a while. After that, I ended up being the official Pyro guy at my college for four years, and established a rule book, which i believe is still in use. and did a little outside work on some small Indies films with a couple of small companies in the area. I gave it up a few years ago when people started trying to hire me out as an independent. I found too many people trying to cut too many corners on safety,and I didn't want to be part of that. 
N.C. just established it's First Pyro license and test along with a lot of regulations some of which are still being discussed in the Legislature. I have taken the close proximity course and have been debating taking the test for my license, but I currently have no interest in obtaining a full license or going for my ATF license. I miss having a finger on the button sometimes and Pyro was a lot of fun, and a lot of responsibility. I've gotten into the education racket recently and now I'm watching out for the safety for others. 
Any tips or tricks that haven't already been mentioned for practical pyro safety practices would be greatly appreciated. I'm not teaching a course this would just be to expand my own knowledge and safety


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## WooferHound (Jan 26, 2011)

*Luna Tech, PyroPak*

I worked for LunaTech PyroPak off-and-on for the entire length of time that they existed. They started out as a lighting and stage company in Huntsville Alabama and eventually split into 2 separate companies: Theatrical Lighting Systems (TLS) run by David Milly, and PyroPak run by Tom DeWille. They moved out of the city in the early 80's for legal reasons and operated in Owens Crossroads after that, about 15 miles outside of Huntsville.

I pretty much did everything there: Bottling Powder, Assembling controllers and cables, Product development, Press operator, everything. The buildings were very interesting with Styrofoam walls so accidents would not be contained in the building or employees could use anywhere in the wall as a quick exit. There were about 30 buildings scattered about, they were small and specific to an operation, again so any accident would not burn down the whole complex.

We made custom devices for a large number of touring acts including Kiss and Micheal Jackson. I traveled and setup pyro for some of Ted Nugents largest shows in Detroit, Orlando and Los Angeles.

I also wrote the computer program that kept all the PyroPak formulas, it was used for the companies operations for the last half of their history. A very useful program that would provide all the weights and measures whenever an employee mixed up a batch of any formulations. I still have those recipes here on this computer.

PyroPak was sold to LaMaitre a few years back and was recently sold to PyroTek.

As a result of PyroPak being in the area, there are a lot of pyrotechnicians around here. Many of you may know a pyro that went by the name "Hammer" who has toured with the biggest acts all over the world. He works with us in our theater about once a month. Another guy that has toured with some big acts works with us has the nick name of "Pyro"


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## DiscoBoxer (Feb 3, 2011)

Goph704 said:


> Any tips or tricks that haven't already been mentioned for practical pyro safety practices would be greatly appreciated. I'm not teaching a course this would just be to expand my own knowledge and safety


 
I would recommend obtaining a "Display Operator" book from PGI, mentioned above. I think it is around $30 and is a great tool regarding safety. Otherwise, feel free to ask any questions and we can try to assist you.

When I teach the shooter's training class, something I always thought valuable was our demonstrations of the potential hazards. We would take our smallest common shell 3", load into a mortar with electrical match, and then place a 3/4" plywood board over the mouth of the mortar. I would then ask participants what they think the effect will be. Most will say that it will blow up the mortar or hit the board and fly wild. The real effect is that the shell punches a perfect hole in the plywood, goes up to it's normal height and display's as normal. This is great for demonstrating the power of the shell from velocity and showing the potential risk of even our smallest common shell.

We do demonstrations of "flower pots" where we remove the lift charge of a shell and electronically fire it in the mortar to show new participants what happens when the lift charge fails and the risks related to it as well as "Hangfires" where the shell fuse lights, but does not initiate the lift until moments later. This helps to train people as to why we do not expose any portion of our bodies over "live" or "unverified" mortars. 

Another demonstration is our catastophic failure demo. We will again take our smallest common shell size of 3", salute, and intentionally load it upside down in an HDPE mortar, buried 75% in the ground and another example of a mortar that is unburried. This is yet another great example of the destructive power when things go wrong.

Note: that all of these demonstrations are performed by licensed, certified and seasoned pyrotechnicians. All examples are fired electronically and from a safe distance, ususally behind blast shields.

Other key things to talk about regarding safety:

Clothing: Prefer fire retardant like nomex, or at least 100% cotton. No polyester blends as they will melt to the skin. Steel-toe, ankle support boots, ansi safety glasses, hardhat and hearing protection, good pair of work gloves. 

I actually use a loggers helmet like this one with my safety glasses under the shield.



Fusing: I say this under safety because we use some many different types of ignition such as electronic match, black match, quick match, visco fuse, etc. Doing a demonstration of the difference in speed is crucial so that folks will not be surprised when they light their first quick match that can burn up to 60' a second....although most may burn about 10'-20'/second due to kinking in the tube or poor quality.

Something that gets over looked a lot, that inexperienced people will do is related to the mortars.

Common mortar materials are:
Cardboard: Original style of mortar, not recommended. Many times the interior spiral wound will deteriorate and cause binding when loading/ejecting shells.

Steel: Still commonly used. DO NOT USE with salutes, but are fine with just about any other shell. Very heavy and expensive, which is one reason why they are becoming less in the field.

HDPE, High Density Polyethylene: Most common and my favorite. Lighter than steel but still heavy in racks. Can be reloaded multiple times during a display and do not "shrapnel", but shreds in the case of a catastrophic failure.

Fiberglass: Becoming the new standard. Very light and robust, shrapnel is minimal in a catastrophic failure, recommended for minimal reloading during a display.

Almost always, I get asked about PVC and this is why I added the mortar types to the discussion. DO NOT USE PVC. PVC can not handle the heat of multiple shells and will distort, leading to a failure. It will also send terrible shrapnel in the instance of a failure. Also PVC attracts static electricity, which is very bad.

This is not comprehensive, but does list some key areas to consider in regards to safety. By far the most important is site safety, which includes your pyro-team, perimeter security and the safety of public spectators and property, and being knowledgeable on your "table of distances".

I intentionally did not elaborate on indoor/proximate effects because there are so many limitations by venue and each effect and manufacturer have different specs.

Hope this helps!
Disco


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## gafftaper (Feb 3, 2011)

I want to really thank you guys for this thread. It's such a dangerous topic and really made me and the rest of the CB staff nervous when it first appeared. Instead of being a nightmare to moderate with posts like "How do I blow up stuff?" It's been nothing but professional talk, really educational, and a great view into what it takes to be part of the world of making things go boom. Thanks Disco and company for keeping this thread on track. Keep it up it's a great read.


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## DiscoBoxer (Feb 4, 2011)

Thanks gaff, I am also pleased in the responses. It appears that there are quite a few of us here that have had some great experiences with the topic.

I appreciate the forum. "We pyro's" take pride in our work, and appreciate opportunities where we can talk openly about it and not be wrapped in with the many people who have damaged it's image. Most of us deeply care about safety and doing things legally.

Ever since I was a child fighting for real estate on the grass at my local town's 4th of July celebration, I would get excited for hours as we waited for the fireworks to begin. We would talk and play games with other folks on their blankets that surrounded us and share in the community experience. When that first shell would eject from the mortar, the excitment that would sweep the crowd was intense and intoxicating. Then the shells would display and everyone around me was in awe as they watched the bright flashes of brilliant color, heard the noise of the shell break and felt the raw power thumping on their chest. 

I can't explain it well enough with words, but in just about any part of this country on the 4th of July, you can feel the American Unity and American culture as pyro's take to the fields with flare's in hand. It was those childhood experiences and that feeling that is still shared at parks across the country, that led me to pursue at least one of my dreams.

I am thankful for the opportunity!


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## SanTai (Feb 19, 2011)

DiscoBoxer said:


> HDPE, High Density Polyethylene: Most common and my favorite. Lighter than steel but still heavy in racks. Can be reloaded multiple times during a display and do not "shrapnel", but shreds in the case of a catastrophic failure.



Hi!
I am a Swedish pyro. Work mostly with display fireworks, pyromusicals and pyromusicals with close proximity effects for special needs.

I had to respond to DiscoBoxer.
I hope you are not meaning what I think you are. During a show placing a new shell in a used mortar is extremely dangerous. The most obvius, if you would miss that it misfired and the shell is still in the tube thats easy enough to understand why its dangerous. What if you missed that some of the tubes next to the ones you were planning to reload misfired? You yourself pointed out the risk of hangfires. However the most likely and easy thing to miss would be the fact that more often that not the little cup that holds lift will be stuck at the bottom of the mortar, missing to clean that out and then placing a shell on top of it could end in a catastrophe when the shell wont reach the intended altitude.

I hope this was misdirected since you seem to be experienced and reasonable but hopefully some one else wont do the same misread that I did and act on it. I have seen people online talk about it but no professionals that I know of do it. If you can bring the shells you can bring enough mortars.


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## DiscoBoxer (Feb 21, 2011)

You bring up excellent points that are good for discussion.

The perfect and safest scenario is that shells are fired electronically with a mortar dedicated to every shell in the display. However due to economics in a business that is highly competitive, many businesses will in fact reload mortars during a manual fired display. I usually only see this technique used on small to medium sized hand fired display's and in most cases are operated by local municipalities such as fire department staff who are exempt from display licensing through their municipality.

In the USA, we are regulated by NFPA code and this code allows for reloading with proper precautions. Usually on this type of display you will have a "shooter", a "clean-out" person, a "loader", and a "line-spotter" for every active line.

The most important is the "swing-load" method performed by the loader. As with all pyrotechnics, no portion of the body should be exposed to the mouth of any device or mortar. Then lowering the shell into the mortar via it's fuse (for small shells) or drop string (for larger shells), while still keeping all body parts clear.

The shooter has one of the biggest responsibilities and that is igniting the shell and providing verification that a shell clears the mortar. If there is a problem with the mortar such as a hangfire, the shooter is to notify the "clean-out" person to mark the mortar so that it is to not be used for the rest of the display, or until the mortar can be cleared safely.

After the shooter fires the shells and moves down the line, the clean-out person follows with a "clean-out stick" and clears the lift cups left behind in the mortars. The loader will then remove shells from the "auto-closing ready box" nearby, and proceed to loading them into the mortars. Once the shooter has gotten to the end of the line, the shooter will return to the beginning of the line to start the next round.

In my many years, I have never seen embers left behind from a previous shell pre-ignite a shell in a mortar that has been recently reloaded. However, it would be foolish to assume that such a possibility could not happen and this is one major reason why we load using the "swing-load" method.

One of the biggest challenges is the slight discrepancy between shells. In most cases shells are handmade and have slight variables in their diameter. Usually caused by the paisting process or the fuse that runs down the side of the shell. There are times where a shell won't load freely or without friction and will not sink all the way to the bottom of the mortar. If this happens and the shell is fired without first being allowed to rest at the bottom of the mortar, the gap underneath the shell will reduce the amount of pressure required to lift the shell to proper height, and it will result in a dangerous "low-break".

This is remediated by the loader using a loader stick. Again without exposing any portion of their body, they will use the stick (typically light plastic with 90 degree bend about 3' long) to gently assist the shell down in the mortar. In the rare case that the shell will not go down all the way into the mortar even with light assistance, the mortar is then treated like any other hangfire and the mortar is marked and not used until it can be safely cleared.

I will state that reloading is not ideal nor is it my preferred method and if it can be avoided, it should. Here in the States this is not always the case and is still a common method used in the field. If proper technique and experience is employed, then it can be done reasonably safe and is supported by NFPA code.

Without going through a complete training session on pro fireworks and shooting, it can be difficult for me to see some details and exceptions that may be needed to provide a safe shooting experience. In no way is the posting intended to be comprehensive and complete or as a substitute for a proper certification course. It is not recommended to try any of these techniques mentioned in this forum without proper training and supervision by a qualified pyrotechnician.

Thanks,
DB!


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## SanTai (Feb 21, 2011)

You are describing a reasonable routine. But what troubles me is that you are saying that it is the inexperienced shooters that do the jobs requiring reloading.

How long is the education required for a license? It sounds like a quite complex manoeuvre when the adrenaline is up, if you do not got routine.

On another note, I have trouble seeing how it could be economically beneficial to hire an extra person or two(or three for that matter) for doing the reload than hiring a bigger truck for the mortars and spending an extra hour building racks which will be safer.
The last offer I got for complete 3" hdpe mortar tubes was at the same price as for two 3" Yung Feng shells(final price, including shipping and handling). hdpe is cheap and durable.

Show design being my main interest, splitting the focus from only shooting to reloading on a well designed show seems like a pity. Like offering design for getting shells in the air.


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## MPowers (Feb 21, 2011)

When I first learned to shoot, sometime just this side of the Jurassic, (early '60's) The guy that taught me, always placed a 1/2 strip of Kleenex or toilet paper over the end of the mortars. A dot of scotch tape at each end kept it in place, made it real easy to spot hang fires. We did use electric igniters (mostly) but the firing mechanism was crude and one-off for each event. The least sophisticated was a group of nail boards, the most complex was a 24 push button control board, with Jones plugs on the back. We had several groups of numbered plugs and each was plugged into the back of the control board in sequence. The only mortar I ever reloaded was when I was working for my Uncle ... Sam that is!. Umm .... different time, different place, never mind.


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## DiscoBoxer (Feb 22, 2011)

SanTai, the method described here is one of many that are used. My preference is to script every display and fire electronic, but budget conditions and sponsor expectations do not always allow for me to do so. I agree with your points as my favorite thing to do is design shows. We specialize in large multi-site synchronized displays and many of our greatest elements of design are lost when shows are fired manually.

In the States, municipalities are allowed to fire their own display's without a licensed contractor onsite. Many of the cities that will choose to do this are small towns that do not have large budgets like the bigger cities. They have all the staff, usually fire department, that they can dedicate to the display. Many of these men and women take pride in participating in our Nation's Independence celebration that there is usually too many people that want to help and some are turned away. However, these cities do not invest in their own equipment and have minimal means when it comes to their display, that they may do once a year for the 4th. We rent mortars to help them, but often times they choose more shells and less mortars so that they can provide more shells in the sky.

Errors can happen in the heat of the moment and this is another reason why I do not prefer this method. Most in the fire departments have gone through training in regards to shooting and display site safety in these types of situations, as well as training required in their career to keep a straight mind and the adrenaline at bay. In fact most of my seasonal staff are firemen that started out doing displays for their towns and loved it so much that they wanted to do more. We hire them during our peak season and they can further their experience on each display they participate in.

The US federal BATFE license does not require any training in regards to the use of explosives. It is more for background clearance, administration and compliance for things like storage. Some of the states do require training for public displays that is either provided by the state or accepted from PGI.


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## DiscoBoxer (Feb 22, 2011)

MPowers said:


> ....... 1/2 strip of Kleenex or toilet paper over the end of the mortars. A dot of scotch tape at each end kept it in place, made it real easy to spot hang fires.



We used to teach people to do something like this in the field, except we would just use scotch tape across the mortar mouth. What we learned is that at the end of the show, people would become too dependent on seeing the tape, that they would lower their guard when verifying that the mortars are clear. We also use plastic caps that protect the loaded mortars from weather elements but again require all mortars to be visually verified, not just once but by two different people.

Sometimes racks are built without spacing between the mortars and they are butted together in the rack (we build our racks with spacing between every mortar to reduce a total rack failure when something goes wrong). I have seen the tape get burned or blasted off from the pressure of mortar fire directly next to it.

Good concept but should not be used to replace actual visual inspection of the mortar after the display. Another safety note, when verifying mortars, I use a flashlight and a mirror on a stick. I see many people verify by gradually looking down the mortar at an angle and I don't like that. Better to be safe than sorry....use a mirror.


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## WooferHound (Feb 22, 2011)

The company that I worked for would tape Aluminum Foil over the mortar. This would prevent falling sparks from igniting adjacent mortars.


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## DiscoBoxer (Feb 23, 2011)

WooferHound said:


> The company that I worked for would tape Aluminum Foil over the mortar. This would prevent falling sparks from igniting adjacent mortars.


 
This is still a common practice, but it adds to the mess at the end of a display. We use it quite a bit for "chained" effects, since the caps can sometimes interfere with the quickmatch. Makes me wish I could find a cheap biodegradable, flame retardent alternative.....but don't think it's likely to be cheaper then foil.


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