# Powercon prices?



## len (Dec 11, 2016)

Poking around the interwebz and I saw some powercon to edison cords for upwards of $2.00 a foot. That seems outrageous to me. 

a. Are they really that expensive since the blue connector is available for less than $5.00 by itself?

b. Is it that difficult to take a female edison plug off and replace it with powercon?


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## MNicolai (Dec 11, 2016)

a. Yes. Same thing goes for DMX cables. You're paying for 2 connectors, the cable, the labor to install the connectors, and markup from whomever you're purchasing from. If there's any kind of "free shipping" deal you're paying for that cost of shipping being built into the unit price too. The shorter the cable, the more absurd the cost of the cable seems because whether the cable is 2' long or 200' long, it costs the same install the connectors on both ends. Longer the cable, the heavier it is and therefore more expensive shipping is.

b. Nope. Mostly just depends on what your own time is worth. Watch a couple YouTube videos, don't over strip the wires or cut into the insulation of the individual conductors when you strip the cable jacket off, and use the appropriate size and type of wire for the job. Triple check your work the first few times you do this and then double check your work from there on out.

My recommendation -- if you're buying more than just a couple cables and don't want to build your own, get a quote. You should be able to get somewhat better pricing than if you add 15 to your cart from Full Compass or B&H Photo's websites. If you're comfortable building your own though, buy the connectors and the cable in bulk and go to town.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Dec 11, 2016)

Just beware that im pretty sure - @STEVETERRY - your homemade powercon jumpers won't meet NEC because they are not UL listed assemblies and are not 12/3 SO, etc. That could cost - of maintain a UL shop - is not insignificant.

Will they work and be safe? Probably. If there's an injury or property loss incident that has anything to do with the jumpers will there be a problem? Possibly.


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## Footer (Dec 11, 2016)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> Just beware that im pretty sure - @STEVETERRY - your homemade powercon jumpers won't meet NEC because they are not UL listed assemblies and are not 12/3 SO, etc. That could cost - of maintain a UL shop - is not insignificant.
> 
> Will they work and be safe? Probably. If there's an injury or property loss incident that has anything to do with the jumpers will there be a problem? Possibly.



Are you really saying you can't build your own powercon cables without being a UL shop? If that is the case we have thousands of theatres and touring shows out there that should be shut down. Also, I could have sworn we just had a provision put into the NEC that allows for SJ jumpers under a certain footage.


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## Jay Ashworth (Dec 11, 2016)

So you're not allowed to repair your own stage pin cables?

Same thing, right?


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## JD (Dec 11, 2016)

The Powercon is a fixture only connector, so the cable you are making is more or less a fixture whip. Powercon connectors are not listed to be used, for example, as an outlet.
Because it is basically an appliance cable, different rules apply. (Just don't make any extension cables with them.)


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## MikeJ (Dec 11, 2016)

Actually, you are not allowed do anything having to do with electricity, because its magic, and you are not a wizard. Bow down to the Control Booth overloads, and cower in their magnificent splendor! Muhahahahaha.


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## Jay Ashworth (Dec 11, 2016)

JD: fixture daisy-chain cables.


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## JD (Dec 11, 2016)

Jay Ashworth said:


> JD: fixture daisy-chain cables.


Yea, kind of remembering a conversation about this before that ST was in on. Not sure there was a clear answer on fixture jumpers, but the general thought was that it is still a fixture appliance cable at that point as compared to an extension cable.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Dec 11, 2016)

I'm just sharing what I've learned so please don't kill the messenger. And I tried to point out above that jumpers with 12 SO et al and listed connectors are not the same as the cables that fit in a powercon and powercon, a recognized component. UL recognized components and UL listed devices are not the same. Listed and labeled are more similar, but not the same.

The devil is in the details.


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## Footer (Dec 11, 2016)

JD said:


> Yea, kind of remembering a conversation about this before that ST was in on. Not sure there was a clear answer on fixture jumpers, but the general thought was that it is still a fixture appliance cable at that point as compared to an extension cable.



Meyer has been putting through's on their speaker's powercons for at least 15 years. Every LED moving light has throughs. ETC puts throughs on their LED fixtures. If we can't make a powercon extension cable then I'm at a real loss as to what we are supposed to do here. I have probably 50 or so of these cables in my inventory. So... this cable is illegal if I built it in house? http://whirlwindusa.com/catalog/power-electrical-distribution/cables/nac3-length




Its not a hard connector to wire. No reason why you shouldn't be able to build your own.


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## MNicolai (Dec 12, 2016)

Add to the list that JBL ships some powered speakers like their VRX series with bare ends to Powercon that you, the customer, put either a loop-through Powercon (grey), Edison, or other appropriate connector on to feed power into your newly purchased speakers.


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## Jay Ashworth (Dec 12, 2016)

Well, let's clarify one point here. All of those speaker connections are probably using speakons, not powercons...

Makes a difference, because that stuff is low voltage. That said, I cannot imagine that, legally, there is all that much difference between making or repairing your own stage pin cable and making or repairing your own powercon extension. Or even a whip, with an attachment cap on it.

But I am not an attorney, I have merely been playing one on the internet for 35 years. If following my advice breaks anything, you get to keep both pieces.


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## Chris15 (Dec 12, 2016)

Jay Ashworth said:


> Well, let's clarify one point here. All of those speaker connections are probably using speakons, not powercons...



No, they're not. They are powered speakers, as Meyers almost always are, and Mike specifically cited JBL's powered speakers...


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## Jay Ashworth (Dec 12, 2016)

Huh. Dunno why i missed that.

The powerspeakers have Power Thru?


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## Chris15 (Dec 12, 2016)

Jay Ashworth said:


> The powerspeakers have Power Thru?


Some do. Anything designed to be flown in an array is a likely candidate as it makes things much tidier aloft...


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## EdSavoie (Dec 12, 2016)

I would argue unpowered speakers are tidier to fly, requiring you only run a single cable to the first speaker (what unpowered units don't have parallel jacks?)

You do have to keep impedance in mind, but I've never been much a fan of powered speakers for anything above the pc-speaker or TV range. 

Right, back to topic...

I don't see why you couldn't terminate and make your own cable so long as you didn't do it incorrectly. Could they even sell kits with labs approval if wiring the supplied cable by the user was a violation?


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## JD (Dec 12, 2016)

I don't think there is an issue with looping unit to unit. What would be an issue would be if you installed a powercon as an outlet in a building or wireway, or if you made up extension cables that exceeded "appliance cable / Whip" lengths, such as a 50 foot male to female. 
Regarding the fixtures being supplied with bear ends, since I retired I haven't been buying new fixtures, but almost all the conventional fixtures I ever bought came with bare ends as the manufacture doesn't really know if you need Edison, Stage pin, or Twist-lock connectors. I know the trend has been away from that for years.


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## Chris15 (Dec 12, 2016)

EdSavoie said:


> I would argue unpowered speakers are tidier to fly, requiring you only run a single cable to the first speaker (what unpowered units don't have parallel jacks?)
> 
> You do have to keep impedance in mind, but I've never been much a fan of powered speakers for anything above the pc-speaker or TV range.


To save derailing this thread too much more, let's just note that there are many more considerations than just impedance, and there are particular advantages and disadvantages of active vs passive in different applications.


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## len (Dec 13, 2016)

MNicolai said:


> a. Yes. Same thing goes for DMX cables. You're paying for 2 connectors, the cable, the labor to install the connectors, and markup from whomever you're purchasing from. If there's any kind of "free shipping" deal you're paying for that cost of shipping being built into the unit price too. The shorter the cable, the more absurd the cost of the cable seems because whether the cable is 2' long or 200' long, it costs the same install the connectors on both ends. Longer the cable, the heavier it is and therefore more expensive shipping is.
> 
> b. Nope. Mostly just depends on what your own time is worth. Watch a couple YouTube videos, don't over strip the wires or cut into the insulation of the individual conductors when you strip the cable jacket off, and use the appropriate size and type of wire for the job. Triple check your work the first few times you do this and then double check your work from there on out.
> 
> My recommendation -- if you're buying more than just a couple cables and don't want to build your own, get a quote. You should be able to get somewhat better pricing than if you add 15 to your cart from Full Compass or B&H Photo's websites. If you're comfortable building your own though, buy the connectors and the cable in bulk and go to town.



What??? Things cost money to build? People want to get paid? I thought they were all theatre volunteers and elves.


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## lightman02 (Dec 16, 2016)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> Just beware that im pretty sure - @STEVETERRY - your homemade powercon jumpers won't meet NEC because they are not UL listed assemblies and are not 12/3 SO, etc. That could cost - of maintain a UL shop - is not insignificant.
> 
> Will they work and be safe? Probably. If there's an injury or property loss incident that has anything to do with the jumpers will there be a problem? Possibly.



There is no way I can see this information being correct, I think common sense tells the story. That would mean every fixture you get out of the box such as a source four that come with bare ends is illegal because you put the end plug on which wasn't part of the UL approval. It would also mean that every structure wired in America is illegal because UL didn’t inspect the end job; not to mention every dimmer rack install, etc. I would say any cables made should have all UL components, they should then retain proper safety standards as long as assembled properly. I don't see how a jumper cable would be classified as a device. If that is the case, who wants to tell all the major rental houses that their cables they make are not legal.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Dec 16, 2016)

lightman02 said:


> There is no way I can see this information being correct, I think common sense tells the story. That would mean every fixture you get out of the box such as a source four that come with bare ends is illegal because you put the end plug on which wasn't part of the UL approval. It would also mean that every structure wired in America is illegal because UL didn’t inspect the end job; not to mention every dimmer rack install, etc. I would say any cables made should have all UL components, they should then retain proper safety standards as long as assembled properly. I don't see how a jumper cable would be classified as a device. If that is the case, who wants to tell all the major rental houses that their cables they make are not legal.


I could be wrong so waiting for Steve or Mitch or Ken or one of those guys to respond. You did miss the distinction I made between recognized component and listed device. A stage pin plug is a listed device. A Powercon is a recognized component. There is a significant difference in how they can be used by code.

PS: http://www.ul.com/marks/ul-listing-...ing-guidelines/specific-guidelines-and-rules/

UL Listing means that UL has tested representative samples of the product and determined that it meets UL’s requirements. These requirements are based primarily on UL’s published and nationally recognized Standards for Safety. 

UL’s component recognition service covers the evaluation of components or materials intended for use in a complete product or system. These components are intended only for incorporation into other end-use products that may be eligible for UL’s Listing, Classification or Certificate Service.


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## MikeJ (Dec 17, 2016)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> Just beware that im pretty sure - @STEVETERRY - your homemade powercon jumpers won't meet NEC because they are not UL listed assemblies and are not 12/3 SO, etc. That could cost - of maintain a UL shop - is not insignificant.
> 
> Will they work and be safe? Probably. If there's an injury or property loss incident that has anything to do with the jumpers will there be a problem? Possibly.



Can we please, as a community work on not jumping to conclusions, and assuming things about people, without asking? Nobody ever said what type of cable would be used. Why would you assume that the OP would not use SO cable. The question was about the cost to purchase jumpers, and the advice given was that they could be made cheaper using THE CORRECT cables, and CORRECTLY termination them.

It's is very insulting respond assuming that the OP would not buy the correct materials; its fine to point out caveats, but please be polite and respectful. There is a difference between being informative, and being a jerk.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Dec 17, 2016)

MikeJ said:


> Can we please, as a community work on not jumping to conclusions, and assuming things about people, without asking? Nobody ever said what type of cable would be used. Why would you assume that the OP would not use SO cable. The question was about the cost to purchase jumpers, and the advice given was that they could be made cheaper using THE CORRECT cables, and CORRECTLY termination them.
> 
> It's is very insulting respond assuming that the OP would not buy the correct materials; its fine to point out caveats, but please be polite and respectful. There is a difference between being informative, and being a jerk.


It wasn't that I assumed OP wouldn't use the right cable, it's that I'm pretty sure code acceptable cable, like 12/3 SO, won't fit in a powercon, and therefore not possible.

Mike J - it seems like you are just intent on stalking me and not so much on serious debate and constructive comments. I'll work hard at not commenting on your posts if you'll not comment on mine.


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## STEVETERRY (Dec 17, 2016)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> It wasn't that I assumed OP wouldn't use the right cable, it's that I'm pretty sure code acceptable cable, like 12/3 SO, won't fit in a powercon, and therefore not possible.
> 
> Mike J - it seems like you are just intent on stalking me and not so much on serious debate and constructive comments. I'll work hard at not commenting on your posts if you'll not comment on mine.


 
Type SJ Junior Hard Service cord is now allowed on luminaire supply cords up to 2m (6.6 feet) in length per the 2017 NEC and UL1573--this is a new length allowance.

As to the question of a "field assembled" cord: that is allowed with_ listed_ cable and_ listed_ connectors. Unfortunately, the Powercon is UL_ Recognized_, not UL Listed--as its listing comes from the listed equipment it is used in.

However, as a practical matter, if you keep field-assembled Powercon Type SJ jumpers below 2m, I can't imagine that any AHJ would object. Over 2m with type SJ in an article 520 venue? You're on your own!

Now, you guys behave. 

ST


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## BillConnerFASTC (Dec 17, 2016)

Just confirming, new in 2017 NEC? Do jurisdictions adopt new versions or allow using it more than they do building and fire codes? Lots of jurisdictions I work in still on 2003 International Building Code.


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## Jammer (Dec 17, 2016)

Best price I have found for the Neutrik Powercon True1:

http://www.fullcompass.com/category/Powercon-TRUE1-AC-Cables.html


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## STEVETERRY (Dec 17, 2016)

Yes, the allowable length for Hard Usage (Junior Hard Service) cord in Luminaire Supply Cords per NEC 520.68(A)(3) changed from 1m to 2m in the 2017 edition. The UL1573 standard (Stage and Studio Luminaires) has been changed to harmonize with that. 

Even if local jurisdictions lag in adopting the 2017 NEC, the fact that UL Listed Luminaires will now have 2m SJ cords will no doubt govern.

ST


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## gafftaper (Dec 18, 2016)

Thought I would loop back to a conversation from LDI. So First @MikeJ asked why @BillConnerFASTC assumed that the OP wouldn't use SO with these cables. The reason is SO will not fit in a powercon plug. You may recall at LDI we stopped into the Neutrik Booth because a CB member wanted us to ask why there is no SO sized Powercon connector. To summarize a very passionate speech, we were essentially told the NEC is out of date on the capabilities of SJ and only your AHJ is qualified to interpret the NEC and say if SJ is acceptable or not. So ask your AHJ and they will probably say SJ is just fine. If your AHJ approves, you are in the clear.

This thread also leads us to another topic. I can't remember when the session was but I was at a conference a year or two back and the speaker said something along these lines: Standards, UL ratings, and codes are not law. You won't be sent to jail for making an SJ extension cord 7' long. However, if there is a fire, if someone dies, or if there is a deadly fall... The lawyers will come and you will be sued. When you are sued, you will be judged by those standards, UL ratings, and codes. So you can choose to follow them or not. You can say "it's safe enough". You can say "the code is out of date and ridiculous, I'm just being practical". But every time you choose to ignore standards, UL ratings, and codes, you are taking legal responsibility for that action.

@BillConnerFASTC and @STEVETERRY can be a bit of a buzz kill with their vast knowledge of code details. The codes themselves may seem difficult or ridiculous to follow. But it's there for the safety of your venue, audience, and performers in preventing a crisis AND it's also there for your protection in court after a crisis.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Dec 18, 2016)

Well stated gafftaper. One technicality, most jurisdictions do adopt model codes, like the NEC or IBC, into law, often with amendments (usually to the administrative sections). Those model codes reference some standards, UL or others, and they then become a part of the code, and the law of the land where adopted. I agree you probably will never be subject to an SJ sting or a powercon radar trap. Likewise you're probably not going to be arrested for not wearing a hardhat when OSHA - which is also law - says you should.

As a design professional, I have greater responsibility and liability to design to the law than an employee in an institution does following it. I assume a manufacturer, like ETC who Steve represents, also has a very high liability to adhere strictly to the laws. The effects of tort law and deep pockets I suspect.


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## STEVETERRY (Dec 18, 2016)

gafftaper said:


> The codes themselves may seem difficult or ridiculous to follow.



Actually, at least with the NEC, that is not the case. However, there seem to be a couple of sentiments that have been floating around our industry for a while, to wit:

"I don't need to have a copy of the NEC, nor to I need to be familiar with it to get my production job done safely."
"The requirements of the NEC are not law, so I'll just pick the ones I want to follow."

Both of these sentiments are unfortunate, because the NEC contains vast amounts of both useful and approachable knowledge--not just the rules of electrical installations. That is why, for instance, if you want an ETCP Entertainment Electrician or Power Distribution Technician certification, understanding the NEC plays a key role in getting the certification and becoming a "qualified person" .

Does that knowledge make you better at your job, safer, and thus more marketable in the industry? I think it does.

ST


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## Footer (Dec 18, 2016)

Then lets roll this back to one of the building blocks of this discussion. Why do we have a powercon through on fixtures, including the ones that ETC makes. Why even put that connector on there? It is extremely rare that 6' will cleanly get you from fixture to fixture on just about any rig you put up. 10' jumpers are the norm unless you are slamming fixtures yoke to yoke. So, manufactures are building the fixtures to do this. Cable vendors are building the cables: http://whirlwindusa.com/catalog/power-electrical-distribution/cables/nac3-length. There is no documentation on these fixtures that I have ever seen saying "don't run more then 6' out of this fixture". 

Is this the industry just setting up the end user for a disaster? 

Also, it does appear that you can get a piece of SOOW into a powercon, at least LEX thinks so. http://www.lexproducts.com/content/upload_products/20_Amp_PowerCON_Extension.pdf


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## JohnD (Dec 18, 2016)

I believe it was in a thread at Prosoundweb that there is some variation in the OD of SO cable and at least one brand of 12/3 SOOW would fit in a powercon. Then there is the True! which has an even smaller diameter.


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## STEVETERRY (Dec 18, 2016)

Footer said:


> Then lets roll this back to one of the building blocks of this discussion. Why do we have a powercon through on fixtures, including the ones that ETC makes. Why even put that connector on there? It is extremely rare that 6' will cleanly get you from fixture to fixture on just about any rig you put up. 10' jumpers are the norm unless you are slamming fixtures yoke to yoke. So, manufactures are building the fixtures to do this. Cable vendors are building the cables: http://whirlwindusa.com/catalog/power-electrical-distribution/cables/nac3-length. There is no documentation on these fixtures that I have ever seen saying "don't run more then 6' out of this fixture".
> 
> Is this the industry just setting up the end user for a disaster?
> 
> Also, it does appear that you can get a piece of SOOW into a powercon, at least LEX thinks so. http://www.lexproducts.com/content/upload_products/20_Amp_PowerCON_Extension.pdf



I think a valid question is whether the NEC could further allow the use of Hard Usage (SJ) cords in article 520. Perhaps this could be for "cables supported by pipes or structures" or something along those lines. That debate would only happen if someone makes a public proposal to do so, supported by a valid technical rationale.

There is perhaps a prototype for this in the Canadian Electrical Code section 44 (Theatres), albeit a very poorly worded and antiquated one (italics are mine):

*44-354 Flexible conductors for portable equipment*
Conductors for arc lamps, bunches, or other portable equipment shall be flexible cord of types suitable for extra hard
usage, as selected in accordance with Rule 4-012(1) or 4-040(1), _but for separate miscellaneous portable
devices operated under conditions where the conductors are not exposed to severe mechanical damage, flexible
cord types suitable for other than hard usage, as selected in accordance with Rule 4-012(1) or 4-040(1), shall be
permitted to be used.
_
ST


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## RonHebbard (Dec 18, 2016)

STEVETERRY said:


> Actually, at least with the NEC, that is not the case. However, there seem to be a couple of sentiments that have been floating around our industry for a while, to wit:
> 
> "I don't need to have a copy of the NEC, nor to I need to be familiar with it to get my production job done safely."
> "The requirements of the NEC are not law, so I'll just pick the ones I want to follow."
> ...


Fully concurring with, and supporting, your statements Sir. 
Back in very late '94 or early '95, I was one of at least 20 attendees at an all day meeting held in your, then brand new, board room. You were chairing the meeting from one end of the table and two gentleman from TUV were next in order on either side followed by the rest of us running on down both sides of your table. You certainly won't remember me, I was next in line after the two fellows from TUV on your left and the only attendee with, then current, copies of both the American and Canadian codes in front of me bristling with 'stick-on' tabs flagging all pertinent points upon which I needed to grasp TUV'S interpretation. I was one of five department heads from a Canadian shop building all scenery and automation systems for a German production of the musical 'Tommy' and your shop was the LX supplier for the Broadway production at the St. James as well as the first U.S. tour and the first North American tour. 
The U.S. LX designer wanted the entire German LX rig to come out of your shop and be shipped to Frankfurt. The LX designer had prior commitments but his associate, Dave Grill, was in attendance and strongly pushing for your shop's gear to be approved for use in Germany. 
At the opposite end of the table sat two rep's from the German production company loudly trying to find fault with any / all of your gear so they could work with any of their three favorite German suppliers. Tommy's LX designers were demanding to work with your gear and the German producers had flown in a total of five gentlemen from TUV; four specialists (electrical, structural, materials / finishes and automation / safety) plus their boss, a generalist.
In the end, TUV ruled against your gear but you hosted and chaired a GREAT meeting plus the food was amazing with hot and cold breakfasts and lunches catered in along with essentially constantly available hot and cold beverages and finger foods. Someone footed the costs for that meeting with the German producers likely picking up the tab for everyone's airfares. There was a mountain of points to be gotten through with the meeting needing to wrap promptly at 5:00 p.m. in order for many to make their flights and you did a masterful job of keeping everyone on target and ensuring that everyone's concerns were discussed.
You proved yourself both a great host and chairman keeping that meeting moving forward and on target from 9:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m including straight through lunch. (although you did allow people to speak with their mouths full)
Good stuff, Mr. Terry!
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.


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## Footer (Dec 18, 2016)

STEVETERRY said:


> I think a valid question is whether the NEC could further allow the use of Hard Usage (SJ) cords in article 520. Perhaps this could be for "cables supported by pipes or structures" or something along those lines. That debate would only happen if someone makes a public proposal to do so, supported by a valid technical rationale.
> 
> There is perhaps a prototype for this in the Canadian Electrical Code section 44 (Theatres), albeit a very poorly worded and antiquated one (italics are mine):
> 
> ...



Hey Steve, 
Could you give us more info on this? http://www.fullcompass.com/prod/190...t-pti=190597&gclid=CN6k5rXH_tACFRJMDQodbfUOjA

There is very little info out there about it. Is it SOOW? I remember demoing a S4 LED a few years back and the whip sent with the fixture did feel a bit more heavy then the traditional SJ cable.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Dec 18, 2016)

Footer said:


> Why do we have a powercon through on fixtures, including the ones that ETC makes. Why even put that connector on there?



I think its about its physical form obviously.

And ETC currently catalogs a 10' Powercon jumper - which I thought was acceptable per code because the whole assembly was UL Listed, but now based on one of Steve's comments i'm not sure. I thought most of the restrictions applied to just field assembled cords, but again no longer sure.

The code on the cable type and size does seems to been from when piano boards were still in use. Look at the "technology on a stage 50-100 years ago, and Steve's point about probably time for a change in these regards has come, probably a while ago. Anyone can go to NFPA.ORG an find the page to submit a change. If even just a few people did that, pretty sure it would be seriousl considered, albeit for the 2020 edition. Throw as much as you can into why the less heavy cable is suitable today and Steve's idea of "when not on the floor" or such would get some relaxing.


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## MNicolai (Dec 18, 2016)

Footer said:


> Also, it does appear that you can get a piece of SOOW into a powercon, at least LEX thinks so. http://www.lexproducts.com/content/upload_products/20_Amp_PowerCON_Extension.pdf



I seem to recall that the issue here wasn't if you could fit the cable jacket in or not, but that if you could the bend radius on the cable coming off of the back of the fixture would very often interfere with the yoke, making it hard to focus the fixtures with the power cables hooked up, particularly if the fixture was pointed straight out from the yoke. This was the stretch of time where if you bought jumpers from ETC they provided you SO cables but you had to go elsewhere to get SJ jumpers.


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## gafftaper (Dec 18, 2016)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> The code on the cable type and size does seems to been from when piano boards were still in use. Look at the "technology on a stage 50-100 years ago, and Steve's point about probably time for a change in these regards has come, probably a while ago. Anyone can go to NFPA.ORG an find the page to submit a change.


This was a key point the guy at Neutrik made when asked why no SO connectors. He said that the ban on SJ cable goes back to the use of asbestos shielded cable not modern SJ. 

Perhaps we need to start a little revolution here and get people to submit changes to the NFPA.


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## Jay Ashworth (Dec 18, 2016)

STEVETERRY said:


> "I don't need to have a copy of the NEC, nor to I need to be familiar with it to get my production job done safely."
> "The requirements of the NEC are not law, so I'll just pick the ones I want to follow."
> 
> Both of these sentiments are unfortunate, because the NEC contains vast amounts of both useful and approachable knowledge--not just the rules of electrical installations. That is why, for instance, if you want an ETCP Entertainment Electrician or Power Distribution Technician certification, understanding the NEC plays a key role in getting the certification and becoming a "qualified person" .



It seems worth pointing out here, too -- as my resi electrics teacher did in tech high school -- that the NEC is *minimum* requirements; with probably a few exceptions, there's no reason you can't do things *better* than NEC prescribes, as long as it works, and the client will pay for it.

Overspecifying wire gauge to reduce voltage drop is merely one on-point example (though not on-point to this particular thread).


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## len (Dec 19, 2016)

Footer said:


> Then lets roll this back to one of the building blocks of this discussion. Why do we have a powercon through on fixtures, including the ones that ETC makes. Why even put that connector on there? It is extremely rare that 6' will cleanly get you from fixture to fixture on just about any rig you put up. 10' jumpers are the norm unless you are slamming fixtures yoke to yoke. So, manufactures are building the fixtures to do this. Cable vendors are building the cables: http://whirlwindusa.com/catalog/power-electrical-distribution/cables/nac3-length. There is no documentation on these fixtures that I have ever seen saying "don't run more then 6' out of this fixture".
> 
> Is this the industry just setting up the end user for a disaster?
> 
> Also, it does appear that you can get a piece of SOOW into a powercon, at least LEX thinks so. http://www.lexproducts.com/content/upload_products/20_Amp_PowerCON_Extension.pdf



I'm seeing powercon on a lot of non-theatrical, non-concert type fixtures. LED panels, video panels, smaller movers that draw under 100 watts (and fixtures over that as well). But tons of fixtures that have very low power requirements are being clustered for eye candy. But as I consider buying products I consider ALL my costs. Like diamonds there's the 5 "C's" Cables, Connectors, Clamps, Cases, and Construction Costs (ok, so that's 6). So buying a fixture for $100 and spending another $100 on per unit just to get it installed can really kill the bottom line.


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## Footer (Dec 19, 2016)

len said:


> I'm seeing powercon on a lot of non-theatrical, non-concert type fixtures. LED panels, video panels, smaller movers that draw under 100 watts (and fixtures over that as well). But tons of fixtures that have very low power requirements are being clustered for eye candy. But as I consider buying products I consider ALL my costs. Like diamonds there's the 5 "C's" Cables, Connectors, Clamps, Cases, and Construction Costs (ok, so that's 6). So buying a fixture for $100 and spending another $100 on per unit just to get it installed can really kill the bottom line.



Always loved that. Call up a vendor... get a quote. Then have to call back and tell them "I have to actually USE this item... please include plug, clamp, color frame, safety". Video world is even worse with this. Spend 20k on a projector and 20k more to actually make it work.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Dec 19, 2016)

gafftaper said:


> This was a key point the guy at Neutrik made when asked why no SO connectors. He said that the ban on SJ cable goes back to the use of asbestos shielded cable not modern SJ.
> 
> Perhaps we need to start a little revolution here and get people to submit changes to the NFPA.



I've proposed a lot of changes to the model building and fire codes, where mine was the only one, and they all receive due consideration. It just takes one.

But be careful. You might like the process and NFPA is usually looking for committee people in the "consumer" category, that special interest group who has to live with the consequences of the regulation.


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## STEVETERRY (Dec 19, 2016)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> I think its about its physical form obviously.
> 
> And ETC currently catalogs a 10' Powercon jumper - which I thought was acceptable per code because the whole assembly was UL Listed, but now based on one of Steve's comments i'm not sure. I thought most of the restrictions applied to just field assembled cords, but again no longer sure.
> 
> The code on the cable type and size does seems to been from when piano boards were still in use. Look at the "technology on a stage 50-100 years ago, and Steve's point about probably time for a change in these regards has come, probably a while ago. Anyone can go to NFPA.ORG an find the page to submit a change. If even just a few people did that, pretty sure it would be seriousl considered, albeit for the 2020 edition. Throw as much as you can into why the less heavy cable is suitable today and Steve's idea of "when not on the floor" or such would get some relaxing.



I will draft a proposal for the 2020 NEC. I'll post it here for comments before submitting.

ST


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## Apmccandless (Feb 22, 2017)

Why all of this focus on 12/3 SOOW? I have seen very few fixtures where the through will allow 20 amps of power on the pass through. In the rigs I work with the total cable run from the distro/breakout to the last fixture is never over 100'. Why not use 14/3 soow? In many rigs a NEMA 5-15 begins the run which is only rated for 1800 watts anyway. 14/3 SOOW fits fine in a powercon connector and would not be subject to a 2M restriction.


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## ship (Feb 23, 2017)

Very good point, but is that because internal jumper wiring is only rated for that (as something that should be changed,) or because the fixture whip is only rated for that? But also very important in consideration to a system.
12/3 will fit into a PowerCon - just takes a lot more work in not easy fitting. 12/3 SOOW does fit in having seen it, but not necessary for a fixture whip and I have not studied into how to do it - but have seen it done, mostly on 12/3 SJEOOW which isn’t acceptable. Wow! Seemingly heated discussion but polite. Great.
As policy where I work, I established a standard that given the circuit breakers are 20 AMP, no parts of this wiring system should be rated for under this by way of “idiot proofing.” My Wife came up to me today with a power cord that’s a very nice 16/3 SJOOW cable, Edison to PowerCon True 1. My policy is also if there is if the fixture whip has low chance of someone plugging it in-line with other fixtures, or these fixture whips if properly labeled for the fixture to be used with are in use, they can be fine. No power feed thru - but only if labeled properly for the fixture it’s used on.
Goal and concept here is safety. If you have 20 Amp circuit breakers for a circuit, you want to safely idiot proof it. So that the failing point of the load rated system is the circuit breaker. If somehow a 16/3 or 14/3 adaptor from what ever to Powercon - which ever version might be used by “accident”, and someone powers up too many lights, your failure point is in the cable if rated for less in amperage than the circuit breaker. I suspect this would be a concern for all.
Perminant install, or where the ME is totally in control and is not worried about future generations.. I know I can only connect four fixtures to this gauge of cable for this fixture as specified and all the credit to you, especially if you drop dead tomorrow and have trained your crew as I have in all of your concerns about safety. Otherwise, why shouldn’t every jumper or adaptor be rated for the normal rated amperage of the circuit breaker protection of it? And or in general comes the idiot proofing standard of 12/3 for any jumpers. Fixture whips at up to 6' I believe can be SJ. Main concern is portable verses in-house. SJT or SJE might be fine in - house, but given winters in cold and cracking plastic and chemicals like DF-50 machines breaking down the plastic compisition... plastic cables don’t hold up as well. Simple as that.
Great debate, but I suspect most in the discussion are ME’s and TD in their own right in coming to common cause. Hope the above helps to bridge the gap in concepts between parties.
I do lesser gauges for some marked adaptors, but mostly scrap all less than 12/3 SJOOW cable for jumpers or adaptors. Idiot proofing was a concern and still is. That said, also don’t trust any cable built by someone else - ever. Test is and at least lot number of it test each connection. Normally you will find loose terminals to what you buy, and infrequently a mis-terminated terminal.


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## RonHebbard (Feb 23, 2017)

ship said:


> Very good point, but is that because internal jumper wiring is only rated for that (as something that should be changed,) or because the fixture whip is only rated for that? But also very important in consideration to a system.
> 12/3 will fit into a PowerCon - just takes a lot more work in not easy fitting. 12/3 SOOW does fit in having seen it, but not necessary for a fixture whip and I have not studied into how to do it - but have seen it done, mostly on 12/3 SJEOOW which isn’t acceptable. Wow! Seemingly heated discussion but polite. Great.
> As policy where I work, I established a standard that given the circuit breakers are 20 AMP, no parts of this wiring system should be rated for under this by way of “idiot proofing.” My Wife came up to me today with a power cord that’s a very nice 16/3 SJOOW cable, Edison to PowerCon True 1. My policy is also if there is if the fixture whip has low chance of someone plugging it in-line with other fixtures, or these fixture whips if properly labeled for the fixture to be used with are in use, they can be fine. No power feed thru - but only if labeled properly for the fixture it’s used on.
> Goal and concept here is safety. If you have 20 Amp circuit breakers for a circuit, you want to safely idiot proof it. So that the failing point of the load rated system is the circuit breaker. If somehow a 16/3 or 14/3 adaptor from what ever to Powercon - which ever version might be used by “accident”, and someone powers up too many lights, your failure point is in the cable if rated for less in amperage than the circuit breaker. I suspect this would be a concern for all.
> ...


Perhaps time for an @STEVETERRY refresher / admonishment again.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Feb 23, 2017)

Apmccandless said:


> Why all of this focus on 12/3 SOOW? I have seen very few fixtures where the through will allow 20 amps of power on the pass through. In the rigs I work with the total cable run from the distro/breakout to the last fixture is never over 100'. Why not use 14/3 soow? In many rigs a NEMA 5-15 begins the run which is only rated for 1800 watts anyway. 14/3 SOOW fits fine in a powercon connector and would not be subject to a 2M restriction.


Read the entire thread and the answer is code requires it. That's the primary reason. And codes change slowly unless a lot of people are killed and then fast changes can occur. New technology - LED in this case - does not lead to fast code changes.


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## TJCornish (Feb 23, 2017)

Kudos to @STEVETERRY for taking this to bat for us. 

Powercon is one of those connectors that is so much more convenient than the alternatives - IEC, L5-20, etc., its usage has gotten a little bit ahead of code compliance, and a little ahead of what may make sense, with regard to its multi-voltage capability, and its non make/break rating.

Here's an interesting product from a real company that is UL listed, which is a surprise to me due to the possibility of plugging it into a 208v Powercon feed:
http://whirlwindusa.com/catalog/power-electrical-distribution/stringers/pl1-420-wh

Here are the mating Powercon jumpers:
http://whirlwindusa.com/catalog/power-electrical-distribution/cables/nac3-length

If you look closely at the second picture, you can read SJOOW on the cable jacket.


I have a number of Powercon jumpers using 12/3 SOOW cord in use for stage power stringers. They fit fine, but I can see how they could pull lighting fixtures around. My Powercon fixtures are all movers with the inlet/outlet in the base, so I haven't had this problem personally.


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## Lyle Williams (Feb 23, 2017)

If you make or repair a power cable you should:

Check it for visible faults
Confirm the correct wiring of the conductors
Megger the cable to confirm insulation quality
Do a full rated current test on the earth conductor (eg, [email protected])


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## Apmccandless (Feb 23, 2017)

BillConnorFASTC believe it or not I did read the entire thread. Where does code require 12/3 for all portable cords. Table 520.44 specifically lists 14 AWG extra hard usage cords and cables with a temperature rating 75C and 90C as being acceptable with an OCPD of 15A. 520.68 (3) only says that luminaire supply cords cannot be protected by an OCPD of greater than 20A. I understand that the ends would have to be installed in a UL listed shop for the assembly to be UL Listed but I see no code prohibition to 14/3 SOOW cord. I understand the thought behind Ship's comments and in the situations he listed I understand the administrative choice but this is not an NEC requirement. So I guess the question is does NEC 520.68 (3) limit the length of any cords that attach to fixtures by a luminaire specific listed connector to 2M in length or does it only limit cords using junior service cord to 2M in length? The way I understand the code is that using junior service cord is permitted under the conditions of NEC 520.68 (3) otherwise it defaults to 520.68 (1) where it says "Flexible conductors, including cable extensions, used to supply portable stage equipment shall be listed extra hard usage cords and cables." Please correct me if I am ignorant to this part of code but my lay person reading of the code led me to this conclusion.


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## Jay Ashworth (Feb 23, 2017)

> why shouldn’t every jumper or adaptor be rated for the normal rated amperage of the circuit breaker protection of it?

Because you can get UL listed LED PARs with Powercon thrus that you can put 6-10 of on a single 20A non-dim with lots of headroom, and the weight of 12AWG jumpers will be twice the weight of the fixtures?


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## MikeJ (Feb 23, 2017)

ship said:


> Very good point, but is that because internal jumper wiring is only rated for that (as something that should be changed,) or because the fixture whip is only rated for that? But also very important in consideration to a system.
> 12/3 will fit into a PowerCon - just takes a lot more work in not easy fitting. 12/3 SOOW does fit in having seen it, but not necessary for a fixture whip and I have not studied into how to do it - but have seen it done, mostly on 12/3 SJEOOW which isn’t acceptable. Wow! Seemingly heated discussion but polite. Great.
> As policy where I work, I established a standard that given the circuit breakers are 20 AMP, no parts of this wiring system should be rated for under this by way of “idiot proofing.” My Wife came up to me today with a power cord that’s a very nice 16/3 SJOOW cable, Edison to PowerCon True 1. My policy is also if there is if the fixture whip has low chance of someone plugging it in-line with other fixtures, or these fixture whips if properly labeled for the fixture to be used with are in use, they can be fine. No power feed thru - but only if labeled properly for the fixture it’s used on.
> Goal and concept here is safety. If you have 20 Amp circuit breakers for a circuit, you want to safely idiot proof it. So that the failing point of the load rated system is the circuit breaker. If somehow a 16/3 or 14/3 adaptor from what ever to Powercon - which ever version might be used by “accident”, and someone powers up too many lights, your failure point is in the cable if rated for less in amperage than the circuit breaker. I suspect this would be a concern for all.
> ...




Jay Ashworth said:


> > why shouldn’t every jumper or adaptor be rated for the normal rated amperage of the circuit breaker protection of it?
> 
> Because you can get UL listed LED PARs with Powercon thrus that you can put 6-10 of on a single 20A non-dim with lots of headroom, and the weight of 12AWG jumpers will be twice the weight of the fixtures?



To both of these points, I have received fixtures with 16ga, 14ga, and 12ga cables. What to you do when you have hundreds of different cables? Pretend that they are all the SMALLEST gauge you own. Establish a rule, that you do not put more than 10 amps(I think it's actually 13a for 16ga under 50', but I'd have to look it up) per fixture chain. Many LEDs specify much lower pass-through current than 20a anyway, so again if I am mixing fixture types, I just drop down to the most conservative rating. I would much rather have all 12ga cables(SJ) AND have fixture manufacturer rate the internal pass-through wiring at 20a, but for now, this is what works for me.


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## ship (Feb 26, 2017)

Obviously I have budget and time to throw out a bunch of fixture whips (ofen from the factory not done properly anyway). At times when the fixture is not feed thru, I check and label the cable for what it is to be used with. Others that have neither or other will have problems and need supervision and training for what's going on. Possibly not a bad thing given the years ago essence of training and management that for a time wasn't passed on seemingly.

*A correction from me*: "Otherwise, why shouldn’t every jumper or adaptor be rated for the normal rated amperage of the circuit breaker protection of it?"
If the fixture is not feeding thru, and fixture jumper labeled for its purpose, with proper management... fine as a rule for me - but also such jumpers are tossed from a standard cable size point of view. Specifically label what fixture this cable is for, or silicone it to the fixture.

Another note, "proper" (I don't view as necessary for a fixture whip) 12/3 SOOW with Powercon at times (in rare to see) has been known to un-lock and unplug itself. This would be a reason not to use it. Old timers can remember no doubt using type W' feeder cable rack to rack jumpers, and remembering similar.

Again and beyond my training of those directly under me, as mentioned My Wife knows she can only plug in 4 of some fixture into a circuit. Those doing shows for us even beyond the free lance as often in even shop staff, don't spend time in the shop training with the fixtures. And as I have have seen VL3K fixtures with both 700 and 1500 lamps in them, and BMFL fixtuers with 1200 lamps in them, and indeed 1500w proper lamps removed, because they didn't code 1700w on the lamp. Even recently had a upgraded Mythos 2.0 fixture with a HMI 440w lamp replaced by a MSD 20R lamp. Training is hard to find time to do, and un-surpervision costs money. Be it from a mis-lamped fixture, or electrical safety which looks bad on you when there is a mistake made that you didn't catch.

In other words, as opposed to a problem like sparks in the grid I once saw when early in my career... I error on the side of safety and protection. Those doing the work, don't often understand the full concept. Was installing some drapery last week at at school. One of my best tech people installed the bumpers between the carriers half hazard. Two bumpers between and no bumpers between others. "I was told to put them on, nobody told me to orientate them in any way", never thought of this reason or purpose I was adding them. My best crew member never considered the purpose or application in what and why he was doing something incorrectly. Sometimes stuff slips thru... (I was not the one instructing him to install them, I was on a scaff tower busy at the time - or he will have been further trained,) and sometimes generation to generation of supervisor to head worker, that's a problem.

Good code and standar compliance has a purpose. Sometimes no matter how good a teacher you are, stuff falls thru the cracks like the above drapery carrier track concepts in having a rubber bumper between carriers - that would do something as opposed to.... mind blank... I just installed all these bumpers, Installing them in the track.... ?what's the purpose of these bumpers between carriers? The person installing them for no doubt a reason never understood the purpose or asked why? Again, I was up on a scaffold tower at the time the project manager directed him to install them = as project manager was told or purpose but didn't understand the concept enough to convey the need and placement to the third person he was conveying it to. Person installing the bumpers should have asked himself the need in instruction for understanding but didn't also. A mistake I also have made in the past - but learning.

Given the simple above concept, its easy to see how something conveyed in message can become a mistake in doing. This especially if one person specifies to another, who than does so to a third and some details get left out as they will. On Powercon feed thru fixture whips and jumpers between them...
Assuming a 20A circuit breaker, what mistakes in powering up gear at you comfortable with? Can your training and supervision overcome mistakes that can and will happen, or idiot proof to ensure safety against a mistake?

Again also - don't trust cable you are provided unless molded for an end. Ofen what you get is loose in terminal or at times mis-wired. There is no such thing as a Powercon... to something or itself tester on the market at this point. I have invented a few based off the stage pin tester, and XLR cable tester concepts. LED dpt. people have already plugged one of my testers into line voltage. Suspect they were? Na, I have no idea, perhaps re-charging the 9v battery with 208v was their thoughts in blowing up the tester by "accident" - or just being idiots. Not the first time this has happened.

Rather have a cable tester get destroyed than a show not working following a mistake. Challenge is the LED dpt. manager "didn't know it happened", and in being "upset" has not found out who did it, and didn't tell him about the problem. Think that problem with who did it goes a little deeper than that by way of training, management, and those doing the job.

Given this, if you have a feed thru LED fixture, but 20 AMP breakers feeding the circuit, how much do you trust your eyes to be everywhere during the cabling of these lights with the proper size of cable feeding or feeding thru them?


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## MikeJ (Feb 26, 2017)

ship said:


> Obviously I have budget and time to throw out a bunch of fixture whips (ofen from the factory not done properly anyway). At times when the fixture is not feed thru, I check and label the cable for what it is to be used with. Others that have neither or other will have problems and need supervision and training for what's going on. Possibly not a bad thing given the years ago essence of training and management that for a time wasn't passed on seemingly.
> 
> *A correction from me*: "Otherwise, why shouldn’t every jumper or adaptor be rated for the normal rated amperage of the circuit breaker protection of it?"
> If the fixture is not feeding thru, and fixture jumper labeled for its purpose, with proper management... fine as a rule for me - but also such jumpers are tossed from a standard cable size point of view. Specifically label what fixture this cable is for, or silicone it to the fixture.
> ...



Although that was a lengthy post, I will reply only to one part. Yes, most low draw fixtures have pass throughs for power. Yes, people could chain way too many together if not properly instructed, and YES if that happened under my watch, it would be my fault. This may be a new concept to people with limited experience on this forum, but it is commonplace as to how legal liability works in the real world. If you are in charge, you are responsible. Same thing if an engineer specs a 30' span for a bridge, but the construction crew builds it at 40', and the foreman does not notice; it is the foreman's fault, not the engineer's. You cannot idiot proof everything; you can only carefully watch the idiots.


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## Lyle Williams (Feb 26, 2017)

Anything we use, if we keep using it long enough, will fail. Sometimes failures happen rapidly due to damage. Sometimes failures happen slowly. Sometimes gear ships in a faulty state from the factory.

Anything with safety implications (ie, obviously electric cabling fits here) should be subject to an inspection and test regime.

I have in the past discovered a batch of factory miswired power cables.

If you are using powercon, make up adapters so you can test the cables.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Feb 26, 2017)

Apmccandless said:


> BillConnorFASTC believe it or not I did read the entire thread. Where does code require 12/3 for all portable cords. Table 520.44 specifically lists 14 AWG extra hard usage cords and cables with a temperature rating 75C and 90C as being acceptable with an OCPD of 15A. 520.68 (3) only says that luminaire supply cords cannot be protected by an OCPD of greater than 20A. I understand that the ends would have to be installed in a UL listed shop for the assembly to be UL Listed but I see no code prohibition to 14/3 SOOW cord. I understand the thought behind Ship's comments and in the situations he listed I understand the administrative choice but this is not an NEC requirement. So I guess the question is does NEC 520.68 (3) limit the length of any cords that attach to fixtures by a luminaire specific listed connector to 2M in length or does it only limit cords using junior service cord to 2M in length? The way I understand the code is that using junior service cord is permitted under the conditions of NEC 520.68 (3) otherwise it defaults to 520.68 (1) where it says "Flexible conductors, including cable extensions, used to supply portable stage equipment shall be listed extra hard usage cords and cables." Please correct me if I am ignorant to this part of code but my lay person reading of the code led me to this conclusion.



I have not had the opportunity to review NEC but you are probably correct. Because of readily available and common products, I don't usually consider 15 amp circuits as desirable for stage lighting. Not sure I've even seen a stage where the branch circuits are all 15 amp.


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## Jay Ashworth (Feb 27, 2017)

FWIW, there *is* a power rating for the IEC connectors which powercons generally replace -- is there *not* such a maximum ampacity for powercons, such that the ficture could have properly rated "through" wiring?


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## BillConnerFASTC (Feb 27, 2017)

Jay Ashworth said:


> FWIW, there *is* a power rating for the IEC connectors which powercons generally replace -- is there *not* such a maximum ampacity for powercons, such that the ficture could have properly rated "through" wiring?


Neutrik page sasy 20 amps. But as a listed component, I believe the manufacturer using the component can modify the rating.


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## ship (Mar 1, 2017)

Sorry if my past posts were too many words, too many points I was replying to and a point to make about education and training good but sometimes certain parts fall thru the training in key points. (Why I normally post long messages.) I'll try harder in the future to have less words about important stuff to convey ideas.


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## Lyle Williams (Mar 1, 2017)

As a low-level bottom-feeder, I'm just glad to have not gone powercon.

I'm guessing I have ~150 cables with IEC on one (or both) ends. It works for me, and should I need another cable, they are readily available.


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## RonHebbard (Mar 1, 2017)

ship said:


> Sorry if my past posts were too many words, too many points I was replying to and a point to make about education and training good but sometimes certain parts fall thru the training in key points.  (Why I normally post long messages.) I'll try harder in the future to have less words about important stuff to convey ideas.


@ship this can't be Brian. Who are you really?
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.


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## MikeJ (Mar 1, 2017)

ship said:


> Sorry if my past posts were too many words, too many points I was replying to and a point to make about education and training good but sometimes certain parts fall thru the training in key points. (Why I normally post long messages.) I'll try harder in the future to have less words about important stuff to convey ideas.



Nah...your amount of word were fine. My number off beers was probably too high for the number of words I had to read. Mostly I liked all of your words, I just wanted to comment on a few of them. I agree that training and careful instructions sometimes fall short. My point is that I keep it simple. Give stage hands a Maximum number of fixtures they can daisy chain, and double check their work. Now if I give the same rule to my technicians, I expect that they understand why the rule is there(and the math behind it) or they ask why. Some stagehands will ask why, but most just want instructions.

I tell my technicians not to exceed the current rating of out smallest cable gauge, and for that small group of people I know the training is there. If I told that to most stagehands, crap would be catching on fire left and right. So I say something like, only chain 10 LEDs per circuit. Even when they do manage to only chain 10 together, I'll still have to connect the DMX between each set of ten, or I'll find a new DMX home run to each set of ten. So at least in my world, I have to double check everything anyway.

The same thing goes for IEC cables that are often even thinner like 18ga, or NL4 cables, you can keep linking things until the cows come home, or I yell at you; probably the latter. Now too many boxes on an amp channel probably won't start a fire, but you better believe it's my ass on the line if an amp goes into protect during a show. Blaming stagehands for doing it wrong is not going to make it better; it's still my fault.


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## RonK (Jan 18, 2019)

A late addition to this thread , if ya don't mind. I came close to finding the answer to a question in this thread: SJT cable for powercon leads and extensions. I know the new rule ST mentioned, allowing leads and jumpers up to 2M to be Hard Usage SJ (as opposed to SO) . But I haven't seen any clarification if that is just sjO, or if sjT is also allowable: both hard usage just the different jacket. I know a lot of manufacturers are shipping fixtures with SJT leads, but I dont want to presume anything. Thoughts?


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## ship (Jan 20, 2019)

SJT is known to not like winter back of truck transport by way of bending and even un-locking.


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## RonK (Jan 20, 2019)

ship said:


> SJT is known to not like winter back of truck transport by way of bending and even un-locking.


 Agreed, and as it's 3 degrees below zero here in Vermont right now, very relevant. 
But is it 'legal'?


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## ship (Jan 23, 2019)

Main question I had in dealing with such cables was "idiot proofing the system." Initally such adaptors were supplied with 18-16ga cable, but had a feed thru. My circuit breakers are 20 Amps, so such cables were not sufficient for safety. Since than, some makers have made their primary leads interesting' in at times even 12ga. Sometimes I have let say a SJE type thru. DF-50 fog fluid will eat it alive, but at some point I could not keep in stock enough shop or bought to specification cable to feed the shows. Rule of thumb is a crew chief in knowing his/her job is allowed to use the cable they plan for, and after the show the department manager getting back such cable in later rejecting it when following policy. 
Only instances where factory cable is in use, and when a department manager does not follow policy of cable "not of policy" in use. Otherwise it's what we build or buy in specification. 

Is it legal? Don't care in, in general my standards as supported and asserted by management overrides what is legal in what we use. "Legal" is per local code as adaption of NEC or their own rules. Don't worry about Legal in a issue like this where if you feel it's correct not to use or accept - your own rules are what's "legal" to use if specied for use in your location. If in your location you specify something cannot be used, or locally in code specify something cannot be used - that's legal if known. If the rental etc. rules of your business specify something is not to be used.. it's than legal. If your City building code specify's something is not to be used, it's now Legal. But in general, if your theater specifies something not to be used in the contract, it's also Legal. Hope it helps.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Jan 23, 2019)

Sorry, but I'm confused by that second paragraph. "Legal" means permitted by law. An institutions standards do not determine if something legal or illegal. Only laws do that.


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## ship (Jan 25, 2019)

Sorry using "legal" too much in answering the question in quoting.


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## Jay Ashworth (Jan 26, 2019)

I think Ship's goal there was "if we say we're not going to use it, then it doesn't matter if it's 'legal' or not."


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## BillConnerFASTC (Jan 26, 2019)

Jay Ashworth said:


> I think Ship's goal there was "if we say we're not going to use it, then it doesn't matter if it's 'legal' or not."



Yeah, I can see that, but did spell checker change some illegals to legal? "If your City building code specify's something is not to be used, it's now Legal." Not to be used so its legal? And OK to "overrides what is legal" - sure if override only surpasses and not exempt someone from the law. 

If the point is that an institution or a client or other entity have standards more restrictive than what laws, I get that. After all, code is just passing - a grade of D - and not necessarily good design by any means. 

It wasn't clear to me it said that.


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## RonHebbard (Jan 26, 2019)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> Yeah, I can see that, but did spell checker change some illegals to legal? "If your City building code specify's something is not to be used, it's now Legal." Not to be used so its legal? And OK to "overrides what is legal" - sure if override only surpasses and not exempt someone from the law.
> 
> If the point is that an institution or a client or other entity have standards more restrictive than what laws, I get that. After all, code is just passing - a grade of D - and not necessarily good design by any means.
> 
> It wasn't clear to me it said that.


 *@BillConnerFASTC* Some days translating "Ship-ese" in to North American English requires effort, appreciably more than Spell-check's capable of. 
From north of Donald's walls. 
Toodleoo! 
Ron Hebbard


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## ship (Jan 27, 2019)

Sorry and thanks.


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