# Possible Events Center What would you want?



## DuckJordan (Jun 16, 2011)

We have an events center going up in the future (near future for a city). For those of you who have toured or had to deal with something that just wasn't quite right, what would you like to see for system components and such. The plan is for a three tier seating area with the bottom to be able to retract. It sounds like they want a 12k seat arena with catwalks up above for spots and such. There are many rooms off to certain areas most already either dedicated for IT or Changing rooms plus storage...

So what would you like?

P.S. this is not for equipment as that will be covered by the consultant, this is for recommending to the consultant for people who will most likely be working in the space. So far I've got headset com ports by each of the fly positions in the catwalk as well as patch bays in the AV booth to route inputs and outputs. As well as a 42 U rack for microphone storage.

A little bit of info on the events it could range from Indoor motorcross, to farm shows, to regular seasons of Hockey, Basketball, Indoor football. As well as concerts. I've also asked if it would be available to put a 200A disconnect near the catwalk.


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## kiwitechgirl (Jun 16, 2011)

DuckJordan said:


> We have an events center going up in the future (near future for a city). For those of you who have toured or had to deal with something that just wasn't quite right, what would you like to see for system components and such. The plan is for a three tier seating area with the bottom to be able to retract. It sounds like they want a 12k seat arena with catwalks up above for spots and such. There are many rooms off to certain areas most already either dedicated for IT or Changing rooms plus storage...
> 
> So what would you like?
> 
> ...



Power of every possible variety everywhere you might possibly conceivably want it - even if you can't see a use for it now, you might want it in the future. We have a similar events centre (almost the only entertainment venue left standing in Christchurch at the moment...), and there are 63A and 32A 3phase and 10A singlephase (that's standard for NZ - obviously be different in the States!) outlets liberally spread through the building - without them, it would be an absolute nightmare of running heavy cable for miles through the building. Also a DMX patchbay and DMX inputs and outputs everywhere as well - way more than you think you might need. I'd also add a comms patchbay and comms ports everywhere (or else decent quality wireless comms...) - that's the one thing our events centre lacks and so there's a lot of running comms cable all over the place.


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## MPowers (Jun 16, 2011)

Loading docks. LOTS of docks!!! If possible in your location, indoor docks, if not get docks that roof over the back of the trailer and have pneumatic side and top seals for winter weather. A couple of half height docks for loading off of cargo vans and pickups. These should be drive in and completely indoors. Automatic dock plates that can accommodate a range of truck heights. Similar venues in other cities that handle the range of events you mention have up to a dozen docks that can be loaded simultaneously. Here in Des Moines, the Hi-Vee event center has 14 docks and the adjoining Wells Fargo Arena has 4. Make access for the drivers, i.e. work with the city to engineer and provide reasonable road access to the facility. Remember many trucks that service the type of events you mention have very long wheel base on the tractors to accommodate the sleepers and condos for the drivers that live on the road. Easy turn around or an easy block circle to get out. Provide truck parking for the rigs that have unloaded or are waiting to unload. Truck parking should provide shore power for the tractors, especially if they are going to be there for a couple (or more) days. Shore power means most rigs today will not have to idle 24-7 between the in and the out, the city should like that. Maybe a little extreme but something to consider is the system available at many truck stops today, that have an umbilical tube that provides heated/cooled air, shore power, internet connection and a small TV hooked to cable or dish. Truck parking should be reasonably close to the facility, not 3 or 4 blocks away (except for condos, few rigs have indoor plumbing!). Consider a public rest room close to where the tractors have to park. In lieu of that, if there is a GOOD truck stop nearby with that system, consider having the city get a contract to provide the parking and the system for the tour drivers. Parking is free at truck stops, but the heat/cool etc system is an extra charge.

I'll make some other suggestion in separate posts.


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## techieman33 (Jun 16, 2011)

All the above are good ideas. Also don't put to many outlets on one breaker, 2 or maybe 3 at the very most, and make sure they are labeled so they are easily identifiable which outlets share a breaker. I hate going into a venue to do something and find out that all of the outlets in the meeting/conference room are on one of maybe 2 breakers.


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## ruinexplorer (Jun 16, 2011)

Don't forget to have the power and connections (audio/video) for the press trucks in the loading dock.


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## DuckJordan (Jun 16, 2011)

Mpowers great considerations for a standalone building, This is going to be attached to our CC as well as on the opposite side an arena and sheriton hotel. There are 4 dedicated truck docks for the Events center with another 12 on the Convention Center as well as a truck ramp to allow trucks to drive right into the venue. Truck parking is handled right out back less than 250' away from the loading bay and the CC has a contract with the Sheraton since its essentially one building with 3 different corps running it that gives a very steeply reduced room rate with the ability to have a couple rooms free for event staff. 

Power leading into the building is capped out at 1500KV and we have no control of that. I'm trying to get as many dedicated 100A+ distro panels anywhere possible. This will mostly be used for the sports setup and not so much as a concert space so I don't feel the DMX distro would be required or used very often. Most of the rental places that would service the building would bring their own trussing and lighting equipment and wouldn't want to use existing DMX distro systems. Wireless internet is going to be available everywhere in the building (the city is trying to push free wireless internet throughout the city). 

Also another person who is helping me is a network guy and I have asked if he could make sure he could dedicate at certain times Some Ethernet for some DMX control ability.


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## avkid (Jun 16, 2011)

I've never seen an IdleAir installation of less than 20 units.
The majority of the big entertainment trucking companies run with APU's (Auxiliary Power Units) to be CARB compliant.
Janco has some brand new Kenworth T660's with built in Kenworth Clean Power™.


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## MPowers (Jun 16, 2011)

Fall arrest for up-riggers.

Sounds like a facility where high riggers will have to set points for hoists and that always means an event will need points between catwalks. Consider a system that reduces or eliminates crossover points where the rigger has to hook and un-hook to move on. We have recently installed some systems that use a track instead of a stretched cable for attachment. The track can be double or triple so workers do not have to un-hook to pass each other ( very good on a counterweight loading rail). In addition, because the track does not sag when a load, i.e. worker who has fallen, is applied, reduces the fall distance and the shock load on the worker and the structure. The worker clips into an 11 foot reel that lives on the track trolley. It simply follows the worker as they move, no conscious effort involved. Length of the track is unlimited, so it can span an entire facility. 

If riggers have to climb a ladder, rather than a star or other mechanical means, to reach the rigging points, I urge you to have a retractable reel(s) with a pull cord attached for the assent.


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## shiben (Jun 16, 2011)

MPowers said:


> Fall arrest for up-riggers.
> 
> Sounds like a facility where high riggers will have to set points for hoists and that always means an event will need points between catwalks. Consider a system that reduces or eliminates crossover points where the rigger has to hook and un-hook to move on. We have recently installed some systems that use a track instead of a stretched cable for attachment. The track can be double or triple so workers do not have to un-hook to pass each other ( very good on a counterweight loading rail). In addition, because the track does not sag when a load, i.e. worker who has fallen, is applied, reduces the fall distance and the shock load on the worker and the structure. The worker clips into an 11 foot reel that lives on the track trolley. It simply follows the worker as they move, no conscious effort involved. Length of the track is unlimited, so it can span an entire facility.
> 
> If riggers have to climb a ladder, rather than a star or other mechanical means, to reach the rigging points, I urge you to have a retractable reel(s) with a pull cord attached for the assent.


 
I have a question about those track systems, are the reels installed to the track permanently, or do you move yours when you move elsewhere? I was touring a nuclear power plant (I would assume other places have these as well, thats just where I saw it), and your harness has a little clip thing that goes on a track but its attached to the lanyard, and it slides up as you climb. Is that the kind of thing your talking about? Its quite possible its more important when climbing a cooling tower thats a few hundred feet tall, but I would think that sort of thing might be better for ladders and if you could install it everywhere, might be more convenient?


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## derekleffew (Jun 16, 2011)

DuckJordan said:


> ...I've also asked if it would be available to put a 200A disconnect near the catwalk.


One arena here in town has 16x 200A switches in the catwalk. Another has 4x 400A. Make sure the catwalks are wide and unobstructed enough to fit a 48-way Sensor rack. Try your best to get an elevator to the catwalk level.


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## MPowers (Jun 17, 2011)

Re: Reels and Fall arrest. The reels live with the system. The system we recently installed at a college near here has an enclosed stair well that leads to entrances to the FOH position and a landing to a ladder to the loading rail and the grid. There is a single 40' reel located at the top of the ladder to the rail and grid. It has a pull line attached that is tied off at the lower level. When the rigger arrives, they pull the line to retrieve the hook and clip in. As they climb, it retracts automatically until they reach the desired level. At the grid, they simply un-clip. It is a walking grid that extends to the walls on all sides, so there is no fall hazard except the access ladder. At the loading rail they have to clip into the rail system reel and un-clip from the ladder system. We provided them with double tail lanyards so they always hook in to the next clip before they un-hook from the first. After the first rigger un-clips from the ladder, the next rigger pulls down the line to get the hook and repeat the action. Hope that answers your question.


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## DuckJordan (Jun 17, 2011)

derekleffew said:


> One arena here in town has 16x 200A switches in the catwalk. Another has 4x 400A. Make sure the catwalks are wide and unobstructed enough to fit a 48-way Sensor rack. Try your best to get an elevator to the catwalk level.


 

Unfortunately the plans have been already "drafted" I'm just suggesting alterations, Elevators to the catwalk will be really difficult to do since the cat is right under roof level with a sloped roof. The freight elevator however looks like it goes to Level 3 with a standard staircase up to catwalk level. There is also a lift position for the scoreboard which looks to be detachable for events and could possibly be used as a way to get equipment to cat level. It also looks like pretty much all the rigging points can be accessed by the cat.

Again I'm going with CAD drawing that were transferred to 50% size PDF so things get a bit sketchy with looking at rigging points. It would be interesting to see what they do for fall arrest systems since the rails for the spots are removable... 

Also good to note most of our "riggers" are not something i would consider "safe" but its not my budget and I'm not part of this IATSE.


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## MPowers (Jun 17, 2011)

derekleffew said:


> Try your best to get an elevator to the catwalk level.


 
I second that recommendation. A lift will reduce the time to get riggers to position and when they arrive they will be less fatigued. Time to climb is money, let the venue pay for the riggers skills and service, not a lot of slogging up and down several stories of stairs or ladders. Fatigue leads to errors and the potential of accidents. So, an elevator will reduce incidents and could result in lower insurance costs for the facility.


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## DuckJordan (Jun 17, 2011)

MPowers said:


> I second that recommendation. A lift will reduce the time to get riggers to position and when they arrive they will be less fatigued. Time to climb is money, let the venue pay for the riggers skills and service, not a lot of slogging up and down several stories of stairs or ladders. Fatigue leads to errors and the potential of accidents. So, an elevator will reduce incidents and could result in lower insurance costs for the facility.


 

See above ^^^^


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## Footer (Jun 17, 2011)

1600-2000 amps 3 phase on deck is now common, I have 750 on mine and it gets eaten up pretty regularly and we don't get more then one truck or 2 trailer shows. 400 needs to be isolated for sound. If you can run cable troughs, do. At least one elevator should go to every level. A stage should be bought for the venue that can be pulled and replaced quickly, at least up to a 4' level. Wardrobe rooms with washer dryer, catering rooms with kitchen facility's, star dressing rooms that are nice, large chorus dressing rooms, etc. All lighting (none theatrical) should be on relays that can be accessed from one panel. The venue should own at least one forklift. A supergrid is nice. The list can go on. Get a consultant that has done one of these venues before. Tour other venues in your 300 mile radius and see what they have that they like and don't like.


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## DuckJordan (Jun 17, 2011)

Footer said:


> 1600-2000 amps 3 phase on deck is now common, I have 750 on mine and it gets eaten up pretty regularly and we don't get more then one truck or 2 trailer shows. 400 needs to be isolated for sound. If you can run cable troughs, do. At least one elevator should go to every level. A stage should be bought for the venue that can be pulled and replaced quickly, at least up to a 4' level. Wardrobe rooms with washer dryer, catering rooms with kitchen facility's, star dressing rooms that are nice, large chorus dressing rooms, etc. All lighting (none theatrical) should be on relays that can be accessed from one panel. The venue should own at least one forklift. A supergrid is nice. The list can go on. Get a consultant that has done one of these venues before. Tour other venues in your 300 mile radius and see what they have that they like and don't like.


 

The consultant on this project is fairly well known although since it hasn't passed public vote yet I can't release more information... The closest location that is similar "outside" of what I've already worked is Sioux City's Tyson Center but I don't know who I would talk to about getting a tour/what they like and don't like.


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## Footer (Jun 17, 2011)

DuckJordan said:


> The consultant on this project is fairly well known although since it hasn't passed public vote yet I can't release more information... The closest location that is similar "outside" of what I've already worked is Sioux City's Tyson Center but I don't know who I would talk to about getting a tour/what they like and don't like.


 
Start here: Information for Promoters

Don't re-invent the wheel. Even with my venue that is 40 years old they had a lot of this stuff figured out then.


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## museav (Jun 19, 2011)

DuckJordan said:


> A little bit of info on the events it could range from Indoor motorcross, to farm shows, to regular seasons of Hockey, Basketball, Indoor football. As well as concerts.


Based on past experience with some similar venues I think that list needs to be refined. Do you need to account for multiple stage locations? Do you need a concert sound system that meets tech riders and/or one that can be intelligible over the noise at a tractor pull? Will the floor be used for seating for concerts and other events but not want/need audio system coverage for other events? Does the audio system need to be full range for music playback during sporting events or is it primarily for PA purposes with those events? And in general, what do the house systems need to support and what support need to be provided for elements that would be brought in for specific events?

On the truck access, are you saying an uplink or production truck would have to be a minimum 250' away from the closest point of the venue? Also, while it's nice to have some audio and video connectivity, unless you go to extremes to cover every possibility from composite video and analog audio to single and dual link SDI to single and multimode fiber to networked audio and video, then whatever you incorporate may not include what is needed. And even if you do, those parties may prefer to use their own cabling that they know, that is terminated for their use, etc. Especially for the outside party broadcast/production side, it may be better to focus on pathways for cabling than trying to accommodate every scenario.

You may want to think about internal production and distribution functionality. Might you have a permanent scoreboard or large video display with live and playback video or need to have accommodations for temporary systems? And what about video distribution to lobbies, concession areas, VIP suites, production offices, dressing rooms, etc. or comms to offices, dressing rooms, loading dock and so on? Your Consultant can develop the systems to support whatever id defined but the better you can define your goals and expectations, the more likely to get what you want or need.

You can also help out the Consultant by researching in advance if the sound system needs to be circumvented in any way by the lie safety system. I had a similar venue that the local AHJ required the audio system amps to be physically powered off as part of a life safety system alarm and they tested the system to make sure that happened.

Think carefully about power and connectivity in the floor, it's a pain to have to run cabling all over a floor that may be used for seating but traditional floor boxes won't cut it when you have a floor that will be covered in dirt and cow/horse droppings and/or driven on by a monster truck.


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## DuckJordan (Jun 19, 2011)

Quite a few of your questions were answered earlier. But to reiterate the score board is most likely going to be removable. There is a speaker cluster located on the drawings at that local as well as some fill in the higher sections of the seats. This hasn't even gone to public vote yet which means this building may change drastically before completion. I wasn't so much asking how to do the consulting work just asking what are you having to deal with now at venues across the country that you wish were better designed or something that you love about them.

Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk


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## museav (Jun 19, 2011)

DuckJordan said:


> Quite a few of your questions were answered earlier. But to reiterate the score board is most likely going to be removable. There is a speaker cluster located on the drawings at that local as well as some fill in the higher sections of the seats. This hasn't even gone to public vote yet which means this building may change drastically before completion. I wasn't so much asking how to do the consulting work just asking what are you having to deal with now at venues across the country that you wish were better designed or something that you love about them.


I was not trying to tell you how to do the consulting, I was trying to suggest focusing more on general functionality and goals rather than getting into details except where it really matters. Your comment that many of the questions were answered previously perhaps reflects this issue as many of them were not really answered. That there is a scoreboard currently shown that "is most likely removable" does not address whether that scoreboard involves video, whether there are other scoreboards or signage or whether it needs to be removable. And what is shown for the sound system on the drawings should support what the functionality defined rather than it defining the functionality. Typically, Programming/Needs Analysis, where you define the goals and requirements for the project, comes before any design so the fact there there are apparently already some design drawings suggests that either a) the project is so early in the process that the drawings are not based on any specific Program and thus have limited relevance or b) there may already be an approved Program and significant changes may be difficult or expensive to incorporate. We don't have to know the situation but it could be important for you to know exactly where the project is in the process and whether you are helping to define the initial Program for the space or 'tweaking' what has already been defined and designed.


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## DuckJordan (Jun 19, 2011)

Considering it hasn't gone to vote to even approve the location suggested I'd vet that this is a preliminary drawing of a suggested build for the city. It can't before than just in verbal and writing goals since the funding must be approved by the people here.

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## museav (Jun 20, 2011)

DuckJordan said:


> Considering it hasn't gone to vote to even approve the location suggested I'd vet that this is a preliminary drawing of a suggested build for the city. It can't before than just in verbal and writing goals since the funding must be approved by the people here.


That could be, but the issue is basically a matter of what is being funded and approved at this point. The reason I brought this up is that on publicly funded projects I typically have an approved Program and concept before any cost estimates are offered.

It seems simple but is often overlooked that before you can approve funding for a construction project you have to know how much funding is required. To do that takes knowing what you are building, which in turn often requires some level of design effort in order to define the facility. That design effort must have some basis, which is where the Program or Needs Analysis factors in. This is often the 'which came first' aspect of publicly funded projects where the funding has to be approved before anything can happen but there has to be something upon which to base the funding. Thus it is fairly common to break a project into multiple phases, with a separate phase (or two) for Programming and design followed by a construction phase with each phase having separate funding. In many cases Programming and Schematic/Conceptual design are performed as a separate phase of the project in order to determine what is wanted and to develop a sufficiently detailed concept, and related pricing, in order to then pursue funding of an appropriate amount for the complete design and construction of the facility. In those situations, any requirements identified after a Program and concept have been accepted or approved are often considered changes. Some changes may be easy to accommodate, others may entail additional time and/or fees from the designers and may also affect the construction budget.

There are situations where other approaches may be used, for example the funding may be based on generic 'per square foot' construction costs or the costs of some similar buildings. And there are some situations where a design team may invest a significant amount of conceptual design effort into a project 'at risk' in order to get the work. On the other hand, it is increasingly common for publicly funded projects to employ approaches such as Construction Manager at Risk or General Contractor at Risk in which case the design effort and documents are typically somewhere around 60% complete before a construction budget is defined and that number approved. And if it is a design-bid-build approach that some public entities employ then any approval of a construction cost could mean that the design documents are already 100% complete and bid with what is being approved being the actual construction bid based on those documents.

In this case, it may be that what is being approved is the funding to start the design process. However, the fact that there apparently is a consultant involved and that there are drawings with some level of detail at least suggests that there may already be some form of Program and concept defined. If so then that means that the type of information you're gathering now while very important should have been defined earlier in the process. That's why I'm suggesting verifying where the project is in the process so that you can both have an idea of what information may already exist and perhaps gain some insights into how to best present any additional information.

Not specific to this situation, but this is where many projects encounter problems when there are technical people involved as while they may have a great understanding of the technical systems, they often do not have a good understanding of or experience with the processes and procedures involved in a construction project, or at least one having to go through the public bid process.


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## DuckJordan (Jun 20, 2011)

I guess, I'm not sure where this project is in terms of the phases. I have been able to make suggestions since they are very rough and crude drawing that looks like they have been copy and pasted into place from the architect firms company. The only thing that looks project specific is how it attaches and the renderings but renderings don't take long to compile after some basic (copyable) parameters have been met. 

I was hoping to be able to suggest small alterations, such as how the IT guys who is probably going to be running the building has asked that there be Fiber run between the buildings for interconnection as well as fiber to each IT closet.

The only scoreboard I'm aware of is the center cluster setup with I'm going to bet live video ability. This is on a "lift platform" according to the schems and it looks to have space provided for motors.


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## museav (Jun 20, 2011)

DuckJordan said:


> I was hoping to be able to suggest small alterations, such as how the IT guys who is probably going to be running the building has asked that there be Fiber run between the buildings for interconnection as well as fiber to each IT closet.


I also hope you get the opportunity to do so and most consultants/designers will support that. But I am reminded of when I was working on a bid for a renovation of a local theatre and asked some of the tech staff for their input only to have them be surprised by my asking since the competing firm (a well known, and well connected, firm who ended up being awarded the project) had apparently told them they already knew what they should have and did not want or need any input. I'd like to see such a situation avoided if at all possible as I think getting the input and 'buy-in' of the users can be extremely valuable.


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## shiben (Jun 30, 2011)

museav said:


> I also hope you get the opportunity to do so and most consultants/designers will support that. But I am reminded of when I was working on a bid for a renovation of a local theatre and asked some of the tech staff for their input only to have them be surprised by my asking since the competing firm (a well known, and well connected, firm who ended up being awarded the project) had apparently told them they already knew what they should have and did not want or need any input. I'd like to see such a situation avoided if at all possible as I think getting the input and 'buy-in' of the users can be extremely valuable.


 
This happens far too often, the consultant gives the idea that they know what is needed, and often ignore the people who work in the venue... Its worse when your boss is the one doing the ignoring and gets to be the one talking to the consultant, saying what he figures the guy wants to hear... Bad bad bad.


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## Esoteric (Jun 30, 2011)

That happens all the time. You would be surprised how many of my clients are at a loss when I sit down with them in the first meeting and just talk to them about what they do, what they want, problems they have had in the past, etc. I even had one client ask me when we were going to talk about cost. At the first meeting! Apparently another design/build firm showed up with a complete bid, equipment list, etc without ever having talked to them, just from the (not very specific at all) RFQ. I was amazed.

This happens a lot with churches. They get sold whatever the installer likes to sell, as the highest margin on, has sitting around the shop, or whatever. Sometimes it is okay, mostly it is junk. Even known lighting "consultants" and design/build firms sell them whatever, knowing they won't know the difference.

Then I have to come in and they have to spend more than the original system even cost to get the correct system.

It is sad.

Listen to the client, sell them what they want and need that fits within their budget.

Mike


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## mstaylor (Jun 30, 2011)

There is a company nearby that buys a ton of gear and then lowballs bids because they already have it in stock in bulk. Never mind if it is what you need for that room. I have gone behind many of their installs and fixed it so it works. 
There is a local install where they sold them two sound boards, one in the booth, one in the house. Then they installed a snake to be able to bypass the booth board but failed to install a snake big enough to handle the board. All the wirelesses and playback equipment stays in the booth. The logic being that anybody doing a show that would want to mix in the house would bring that themselves. WTF?


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