# Chocolate gel?



## derekleffew (Jan 29, 2008)

Many of you have in the past expressed a liking for R99, L156, or AP7100, (can't find the GAM#). Could you please explain to me why? Skeptically, I tried it once in college, and confirmed my suspicions. All it did was dim the light, and guess what they were already on a dimmer that I could control; and warm-up the light, and that happened also due to amber-drift as I ran the dimmer down. If I want a warm source but still keep the intensity, L151, L152, L153, L154, and L162 and L176, or R01-R04 have always done everything I needed them to.

If I wanted to dim a light and warm it up, R03 (Dark BA)+L210 (0.6ND) comes pretty close to R99, but I've never needed or wanted that. So please help me to understand some of you people's love of chocolate. 

Maybe I don't _get it_ because I was taught there's no such thing as "tan, brown, or gray" light. And I've never had anyone ask me to mix any of those from a CYM source either.


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## Logos (Jan 29, 2008)

I'll answer this tomorrow when I am not stoned out of my head on prescription super strength painkillers for my teeth. I have been on them all day today and I feel very strange.


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## len (Jan 29, 2008)

I was the ME for a tour in which one of the follow spot frames had a chocolate gel in it. I can't recall them ever using that frame. I think it was for a planned tv show, which never happened. In fact, they spec-ed a gel for every frame and I don't think they ever used but one of them. Yet the LD insisted on checking to make sure every frame had the right gel in it every night. Oh well, it wasn't my money they wasted.


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## Kelite (Jan 29, 2008)

Not having developed the transmission, I can merely speculate why Chocolate is still around... 

The possible answer is that this transmission warms the color temperature while adding a bit of neutral density. Since this color selection has been around for quite some time, it's my guess that other more measurable (and predictable) gel transmissions were developed to aid in each shift. (Color temp as well as ND) 

I have been told that certain skin colors/types respond under stage lighting better with this transmission, as opposed to ambers, pinks and straws. But again, this is what I've been told. (Perhaps this is why Apollo AP-7100 Hot Cocoa does not place in the top 100 of our best-selling transmissions....)


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## jmabray (Jan 29, 2008)

I like R99. When doing Black Box shows where I had to lay in Houselights as part of the plot, I always had them Gelled R99. There is a certain warmth to it that you can't get from other sources. It warms the light with out going too amber, especially when dimming. I have used it on stage several times as well, but usually for specials and the like.


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## TimMiller (Jan 29, 2008)

Chocolate works really well on people who have dark skin. It doesnt wash them out.


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## Logos (Jan 29, 2008)

Over the years I have lit a number of small scale productions of what can best be described as kitchen sink drama. English playwrights like Osbourne and Pinter. I've used a lot of Chocolate in those cases because it seems so me to recreate almost perfectly the sort of underlit English parlour effect. 
I also used it once in a production of "The Boyfriend" where the Director and the set and costume designer wanted each scene to start as a tableau that looked like a sepia tone photograph. We played tricks with a gauze reveal painted like a photo frame opening onto the scenes. I used a Chocolate wash for that because I couldn't quite get the effect we all were looking for with anything else.
I also agree with jmabray, there seems to be a certain quality about the warmth that is different from everything else.
This probably comes down to something we did discuss once before about favourite colours. As designers we all have colours we like to use, others either don't like them or are neutral to them or even simply can't see why you use them but each to his own. 
And in the end it doesn't always come down to the numbers. Colour temp and transmission rates don't tell the whole story for me anyway.


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## phil000 (Jan 30, 2008)

derekleffew said:


> Many of you have in the past expressed a liking for R99, L156, or AP7100, (can't find the GAM#). Could you please explain to me why? Skeptically, I tried it once in college, and confirmed my suspicions. All it did was dim the light, and guess what they were already on a dimmer that I could control; and warm-up the light, and that happened also due to amber-drift as I ran the dimmer down. If I want a warm source but still keep the intensity, L151, L152, L153, L154, and L162 and L176, or R01-R04 have always done everything I needed them to.
> If I wanted to dim a light and warm it up, R03 (Dark BA)+L210 (0.6ND) comes pretty close to R99, but I've never needed or wanted that. So please help me to understand some of you people's love of chocolate.
> Maybe I don't _get it_ because I was taught there's no such thing as "tan, brown, or gray" light. And I've never had anyone ask me to mix any of those from a CYM source either.




I'm with you on this one derek, I really dislike it. it's just bleh, I used it once, and once was more than enough.


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## derekleffew (Jan 30, 2008)

phil000 said:


> I'm with you on this one derek, I really dislike it. it's just bleh, I used it once, and once was more than enough.


Well that's the key then. Chocolate gel doesn't work in Ohio, but is okay everywhere else.


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## gafftapegreenia (Jan 30, 2008)

First 1/3 CTB, now Chocolate, Derek is going to disown me...

However, I'm sorry Derek, but I'm of the persuasion that likes R99. There is a unique look about Chocolate that like. I find it very similar to the Bastard Amber, but with less green. However, it's not like a worship the stuff and use it every show, but rather find that it fits a certain need. That's what I like most about it, it has a softer effect that has that sepia tone. Not perfect for every use, no, but gives a sort of "old school incandescent" feel, so it's better for scenes that don't need to be bright-bright. 

I've always understood Chocolate to be an Amber of sorts, very close to R3405 Roscosun 85N.3. Regardless is it an old color. Now wether or not we can use film gels in theatre is a _whole_ new debate.


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## TimMiller (Jan 30, 2008)

Honestly the cool thing about theatre and esp lighting, you are the artist. You have a very large color pallette of gels. You can use this to help paint the scene and the feel that you want everyone to feel. If you need the color that happens to fall under film gel for your production go for it. I actually speced some rosco euro gels for a show i did several years ago. I liked the color. I also like gam's new colors they came out with. I keep Rosco, Gam, Lee, and Apollo gel books and gels stocked for a reason. Each one has a slightly different color and sometimes one companys bastard amber doesnt fit so maybe fatherless child will... And yes, fatherless child (apollo) is slightly different than bastard amber...


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## tgates (Jan 30, 2008)

*Re: Trying to get old light board to work*

You know it's funny, the owner at our shop went through and cleared out a bunch of gels out of the cabinet he didn't want, one of them was a big pile of R3406, which looks like an even darker R99. We just got it up this afternoon (along with a few other gels, yes I know those aren't the proper names, but I didn't have a chance to look them all up). We had them left over from when a client didn't believe us that you can't really judge a color of gel by the color on the web page... 

Anyway, i doubt they will go for very much, and since it's relatively on topic, i thought I might post the link. Maybe someone here can pick them up for a steal? 

http://cgi.ebay.com/25-Rosco-3406-a...ryZ29944QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


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## derekleffew (Jan 30, 2008)

Thank you, tgates! You've just helped my prove my point. All chocolate gel is CTO combined with Neutral Density. So for all you chocolate lovers out there, here's your one chance to buy 25 sheets of the crap, double-R99, Dark Chocolate , or officially "RoscoSun 85N.6" at a huge discount. This color is normally used not in a fixture, but applied to exterior windows when shooting film/video to 
1) change the color temperature of the daylight coming through to 3200K, and 
2) reduce the intensity of the light.
Isn't that what I said chocolate was in my first post? Warm it up and dim it down?

Start bidding, I want to see who pays ABOVE retail for this very special auction item lot. Methinks, tgates saw the thread about the "antique" PAR56 can and decided to get rich quick selling color media on ebay! 

 Chocolate gel lovers, put your money where your mouth is and grab this incredible deal. The only question now is whether the "Special Dark Chocolate" is bitter-sweet or semi-sweet.


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## TimMiller (Jan 31, 2008)

Ironically I am specing chocolate gel for one of our upcoming shows. It is taking place in rennissance and from what i am told we want a black and white kind of feel. So i'm going to go with a sepa tone. We shall see how it works out.


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## Kelite (Jan 31, 2008)

Sounds cool Tim. Please don't forget to post a few pictures when finished!


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## gafftapegreenia (Jan 31, 2008)

Alright Derek, so what mix of amber gel, I mean, plastic color media, and ND = Chocolate. 

And while on the topic of combo gels, no one's ever had a problem with the RGB cyc frosts or colored cyc silks. What about all those crazy LEE colored frosts? Derek you're a LEE person. Why pick on chocolate?


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## derekleffew (Feb 1, 2008)

I'm not picking on it, I just don't understand it.

If my arithmetic is correct, I believe you'll find R3407 (Full CTO) + R97 (o.3ND) = R99, or comes very close.

In English, L204 + L210 = L156.

With apologies to GAM and AP.

As for color and frost together, saves time and money, I fully approve. But no one makes an L202+R132 combo, which is the most common in my world, and that would be like a dog/cat hybrid anyway.


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## gafftapegreenia (Feb 1, 2008)

Ok ok. Now for this matter of mixing gels from different companies? How can we make that work?


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## derekleffew (Feb 1, 2008)

gafftapegreenia said:


> ...Now for this matter of mixing gels from different companies? How can we make that work?


Technically, we're not mixing gels, we're mixing color and diffusion media. I've found that Lee and any frost will turn the color of the frost whatever the Lee color is, especially deep colors.


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## Grog12 (Feb 1, 2008)

Don't worry D...I'm with you on the dislike of chocolate.


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## gafftapegreenia (Feb 1, 2008)

derekleffew said:


> Technically, we're not mixing gels, we're mixing color and diffusion media. I've found that Lee and any frost will turn the color of the frost whatever the Lee color is, especially deep colors.



Sigh. I'm going to have to start typing everything out long form so you can't keep doing this to me.


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## phil000 (Feb 1, 2008)

Derek don't pick on the poor lad, he hasn't the wisdom of us post teens. Gosh to think he mispelled the word jelz.
ha.


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## gafftapegreenia (Feb 1, 2008)

phil000 said:


> Derek don't pick on the poor lad, he hasn't the wisdom of us post teens. Gosh to think he mispelled the word jelz.
> ha.




Hey phil000 no worries me and Derek get along rather well. Or maybe he has me completely fooled. 

So I just tried some of your "recipes". The L202 and L210 has a transmission rate similar to R99, but R99 had noticeably more red in it. I'm still trying to figure out what gel in chocolate without the ND. 

I respect your dislike of R99, I just don't share in it.


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## derekleffew (Feb 1, 2008)

You're not getting it! I'll type slower this time.

R3407 (Full CTO) + R97 (0.3ND) ≈ R99.

L204 (Full CTO) + L210 (0.6ND) ≈ L156.

However, R99 ≠ L156 !!!

Of course R99 has more red than {L20*2* [1/2CT*B*] + L210 [0.6ND] } !!! 

High-school kids: pay attention in Algebra class. You may need it someday! AND you can't mix and compare like that across brands--_it ain't natural, and is a sin against the creator and humanity.

_It's not that i dislike chocolate color media, it's just that I don't understand some people's love of it. And you don't have to "respect" my dislikes or likes. _As _TimMiller so eloquently stated, use what works for you (and the production). Let's see, NO bids yet--if you *really* loved chocolate, you'd bid. I'd buy the AP4900, as it's so very L115, just bluer and less greenia. Charlie Babbit made a joke.:neutral:


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## gafftapegreenia (Feb 1, 2008)

My word, am I going to be sent to Lighting Hell for such sins against the Natural Order?

I followed your listing again, but I'm still not getting matches. It still looks rather different, and not in a R3206 compared to an R3208 way. 

I'm going to have to find some cuts of this and test it in real life and not with swatches.


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## derekleffew (Feb 1, 2008)

gafftapegreenia said:


> ...I'm going to have to find some cuts of this and test it in real life and not with swatches.


Brings up a good point about NOT choosing color by looking at it in the swatchbook. You must, until you've used them enough to know, see the effects of the color with a light source of the same color temperature as your fixtures. An incandescent or krypton MiniMag works well for this, but be aware that color does not "scale" linearly. I bet Apollo has some notes about that somewhere on their website.


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## gafftapegreenia (Feb 1, 2008)

derekleffew said:


> Brings up a good point about NOT choosing color by looking at it in the swatchbook. You must, until you've used them enough to know, see the effects of the color with a light source of the same color temperature as your fixtures. An incandescent or krypton MiniMag works well for this, but be aware that color does not "scale" linearly. I bet Apollo has some notes about that somewhere on their website.



I have that built up pretty well with the majority of Rosco colors because I use them so much, I've even done that MiniMag trick before. I was thinking of making a little box that used some MR8 lamps that would allow me to use the gel from the swatchbooks, and thus being significantly less expensive than buying sheets or a "lab edition" swatchbook. It could have two lamps, each with a separate color slide, allowing me to mix and compare colors.


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## derekleffew (Feb 1, 2008)

Might I suggest MR-11s?


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## gafftaper (Feb 2, 2008)

My college T.D. who knew all the tricks of the ages and taught me all I know, was a huge fan of Chocolate. He loved to use it as the neutral in a three color wash (with R02/03 and R60). I use it some times and find it fine, I'm not hooked on it but it works fine for the right show. As others have described, I do like the sepia tone look on in some cases. 

Why use it instead of a mix of R3407 and R97? Because I only have to buy one sheet of gel and you have to buy two.


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## gafftapegreenia (Feb 2, 2008)

derekleffew said:


> Might I suggest MR-11s?



Yes, you may.


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## Charc (Feb 13, 2008)

So while sorting Gel I hit the treasure trove of chocolate... I don't know who, but someone had a sweet tooth, R99 has its own folder. I wonder if I'll try using it sometime...


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## tomed101 (Feb 22, 2008)

Not strictly on topic, but it was stated previously that there is no such thing as "Grey light", but that is exactly what I need for an upcoming production (graveyard scene, and the gallows) I was thinking grey light (if it exists) and some gobos on the cyc, but after several searches, have found no references on CB. Suggestions?

Tom


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## icewolf08 (Feb 22, 2008)

tomed101 said:


> Not strictly on topic, but it was stated previously that there is no such thing as "Grey light", but that is exactly what I need for an upcoming production (graveyard scene, and the gallows) I was thinking grey light (if it exists) and some gobos on the cyc, but after several searches, have found no references on CB. Suggestions?
> Tom


Um, there is no such thing as grey light. Go out in a graveyard at night, and I will bet you anything that there is no grey light. Then go outside at night and tell us what color it is, because it isn't blue like people think it is.

Interesting facts: We perceive low light levels (assuming sources that don't amber shift, like the moon) as blue-ish on account of the fact that our eyes shift colors towards blue in low light.

What color is the moon? Why?
So what color is moonlight?

That's all.


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## derekleffew (Feb 22, 2008)

icewolf08 said:


> ...What color is the moon? Why?
> So what color is moonlight?


Geez, Alex. I thought everyone knew that moonlit scenes are L183, including you. It's right there in the name. Methinks you may have a little too much L209, along with Charc.


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## Charc (Feb 22, 2008)

derekleffew said:


> Geez, Alex. I thought everyone knew that moonlit scenes are L183, including you. It's right there in the name. Methinks you may have a little too much L209, along with Charc.



Just prescribe L209 for grey light...

(I'm assuming L209 is ND, I only have one LEE swatchbook, in my toolbag.)

L183?... Rosco conversion please?


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## PadawanGeek (Feb 22, 2008)

charcoaldabs said:


> L183?... Rosco conversion please?



L183 Moonlight Blue = R69 Brilliant Blue


charcoaldabs said:


> (I'm assuming L209 is ND, I only have one LEE swatchbook, in my toolbag.)



Yes it is .3 ND


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## JD (Feb 22, 2008)

Yummm… Chocolate!

I actually had a tech rider come through for an act way back when, that guy that sung that horse song, “Wildflower.” I think it was. Spec’d 16k front lighting only, all in chocolate. Was the most boring show I ever did and the only time I ever bought the color.

Now, about low light… Things seam grey to us in a graveyard at night because in low light the cones in our eyes shut down (they perceive color) leaving only the rods working, which means we see in black and white. Gets hard to “light” something and get this effect. The best way to produce this effect on stage would be a near monochromic light… Hey, LEDs! Anyway, once people’s eyes accommodated to the color, they would only be able to see shades of grey due to the narrow bandwidth. 

I think Chocolate gel only sells because people imagine the taste


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## tomed101 (Feb 22, 2008)

JD said:


> Now, about low light… Things seam grey to us in a graveyard at night because in low light the cones in our eyes shut down (they perceive color) leaving only the rods working, which means we see in black and white. Gets hard to “light” something and get this effect. The best way to produce this effect on stage would be a near monochromic light… Hey, LEDs! Anyway, once people’s eyes accommodated to the color, they would only be able to see shades of grey due to the narrow bandwidth.




The problem with this, is its actually a music concert, not theatre, with a rather limited budget. This means that we wont be able to hire/buy LED's. I suppose we could turn all the lights off and leave the audience for about 5min to get them used to the dark


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## derekleffew (Feb 22, 2008)

JD said:


> ...I actually had a tech rider come through for an act way back when, that guy that sung that horse song, “Wildflower.” I think it was. Spec’d 16k front lighting only, all in chocolate. Was the most boring show I ever did and the only time I ever bought the color...


JD, I believe you have Christopher Cross (that "between the moon and New York City" guy) confused with Michael Martin Murphey (a one-hit wonder with the horse song, _Wildfire_). Their voices are similar, but one had significantly more talent than the other. I can certainly see either wanting to perform in only white light, so as not to distract from the "message."


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## JD (Feb 23, 2008)

derekleffew said:


> I believe you have Christopher Cross (that "between the moon and New York City" guy) confused with Michael Martin Murphey (a one-hit wonder with the horse song, _Wildfire_). Their voices are similar, but one had significantly more talent than the other.



This would be the less talented horse one! His entire 45 minute set sounded like the same song and I almost puked from the boredom. I now suffer from the problem that I associate chocolate with this experience! 

He also did not want the stage lights (if you can truly call 16 pars that) to be set above 33%, in other words the show would have worked just as well if I had taken four par38’s from Home Depot! 

The theater seated about 1100, of which 75 seats were filled… They did not request a follow spot, but I brought one just in case it was a mistake in communications. There was no mistake….


“The customer is always right.” Ahhhh… Right???


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## TimMiller (Feb 23, 2008)

Ever do a show with lisa presley. She hates light, and has a way of turning off people. I did a show once with her, she said to kill the spots so we did, then she kept on saying it was too bright, we were running our 60k at about 20%. She was barely lit.


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## toyboyt122 (Feb 23, 2008)

derekleffew said:


> You're not getting it! I'll type slower this time.
> R3407 (Full CTO) + R97 (0.3ND) ≈ R99.


Sorry, but foregoing all math, and relying on my eyes (which is sometimes all that matters with lighting) R97+R3407 most certainly does not equal R99.

derekleffew said:


> High-school kids: pay attention in Algebra class. You may need it someday!


Use your common sense too. Oh and remember that any time you combine gels, you have to think about your transmission rates differently. If you are using two gels with a 50% transmission rate, then your total light output is only 25%, or 50% of 50%.

derekleffew said:


> It's not that i dislike chocolate color media, it's just that I don't understand some people's love of it. And you don't have to "respect" my dislikes or likes. _As _TimMiller so eloquently stated, use what works for you (and the production).


Its not the love or hate of a color that makes it valid, its the usefulness. And I think others will agree with me that our swatchbooks are too thin. I never seem to be able to find the color I really want even with Rosco, Lee, Gam, and Apollo in the mix. I have been known to use R99 by itself (once as a downlight color, and once in a gobo wash), I've also used it in combination with R321 and others to get something I couldn't find as a standard color. Personally, I've never been able to imagine a time when I would even consider using R96, but that doesn't mean it doesn't have uses somewhere.


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## derekleffew (Feb 23, 2008)

TimMiller said:


> Ever do a show with LisaMarie Presley? She hates light, and has a way of turning off people. I did a show once with her, she said to kill the spots so we did, then she kept on saying it was too bright, we were running our 60k at about 20%. She was barely lit.


Ray Charles once told my roommate the lights were too bright! What Ray meant was it was too warm on stage.


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## Moose Hatrack (Dec 23, 2014)

Was the follow spot operator (Trouperette) for a Michael Martin Murphy Show at Cain's Ballroom in about 1981. No intercom. He played the Wildfire intro 3 times before I stopped wondering why he was playing in the dark.


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## JD (Dec 23, 2014)

Moose Hatrack said:


> Was the follow spot operator (Trouperette) for a Michael Martin Murphy Show at Cain's Ballroom in about 1981. No intercom. He played the Wildfire intro 3 times before I stopped wondering why he was playing in the dark.


That guy?? Did a show for him in Doyelstown PA (what feels like a half-century ago!) Talk about your chocolate gels and running dimmers at 25%! Guy was more light phobic then a roach!


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## Judge (Dec 31, 2014)

Chocolate has its uses for sure. You cannot get the same color just by dimming the light. I am LD for a show that features a lot of black acrobats and its great for them. It lights their dark skin in a nice way. Also for more theatrical work its useful to make light a bit more grungy without dimming it. I have also just discovered Lee 744 Dirty White and am looking forward to trying that!


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## Esoteric (Dec 31, 2014)

derekleffew said:


> Well that's the key then. Chocolate gel doesn't work in Ohio, but is okay everywhere else.



It doesn't work in Texas then either.

In all fairness, I just never got around to using it. Never felt the need to. It might look awesome, but just never around to it.

Mike


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## TheTheaterGeek (Jan 2, 2015)

I have to say, I really enjoy chocolate. I also like R99. ;p

But when it comes to R99, It may just be me, but I see it as a color that is both warm and cool. Relatively of course. I have used it in plots to be a contrasting color. For example, In our Black Box, where we rely heavily on s-faders due to a low circuit count, it is great to have R99. When I hit actors with a warm color, the chocolate seems to have an almost purple feel. if I then fade to something cooler, it seems to take on a much more amber feel. 

This may be a load of crap, and I would love to hear thoughts. HAHA I am admittedly not as seasoned in my use of color. I am slowly trying to expand my palette.


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