# Single Person lift advice



## Skervald (Sep 18, 2014)

I'm starting to put together a proposal to purchase a personal lift. (wish me luck!) My only experience is with the larger self propelled models and I'm not certain those will work in this environment. I'm looking for any opinions or advice on the smaller models so don't be shy. Here's what I can tell you:

Primary uses for the lift would be hanging, focusing, and maintaining lighting instruments, and dead hanging draperies and backdrops in two dead hung spaces.

Typical working height is around 19 feet.

One of the spaces this would be used in is a blackbox with a sprung floor (it is blocked to facilitate the use of small riser sections and larger set pieces) The other is not sprung.

Storage is tight (surprise!) so the smaller the footprint, the better.

Thanks for your input!


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## BillConnerFASTC (Sep 18, 2014)

I don't know the answer but if you have to use it close to walls, make sure the safety systems - like outriggers - can accommodate that.


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## StradivariusBone (Sep 18, 2014)

This is also another option you might want to consider. I'd buy one if we didn't already have a Genie AWP in the shop.

http://littlegiantsafety.com/products/aerial-safety-cage/

It meets your working height needs. We have an AWP-36s, but even that doesn't reach our I-beams (no grid). Plus the outriggers are a PITA.


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## Footer (Sep 18, 2014)

StradivariusBone said:


> This is also another option you might want to consider. I'd buy one if we didn't already have a Genie AWP in the shop.
> 
> http://littlegiantsafety.com/products/aerial-safety-cage/
> 
> It meets your working height needs.



Has anyone actually tried one of those? I have always felt little giants are rather dangerous to get setup and take down. With the additional weight of the bucket that thing would be a real bear to deal with. 

My personal feeling is AWP-25 or a painters or carpenters scaffolding. If your in an environment where you only need to access the grid every few weeks AND you do everything at once then the scaffold is the way to go. If you are in a rep plot situation and need to access the grid daily then and AWP is the way to go.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Sep 18, 2014)

Why not the IWP series - heavier but no outriggers to deal with? The IWP 20S with the outreach option - pretty interesting.


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## sk8rsdad (Sep 18, 2014)

If weight (and budget) isn't an issue then there's the Runabout series.


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## StradivariusBone (Sep 18, 2014)

Footer said:


> Has anyone actually tried one of those? I have always felt little giants are rather dangerous to get setup and take down. With the additional weight of the bucket that thing would be a real bear to deal with.



I've used the regular ones without any difficulty as long as you have help. I can see doing it alone would be risky, but I'd be happier 12' up on that than on a regular A-frame.


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## SteveB (Sep 18, 2014)

We use a 10 year old version of an JLG 20MVL - http://www.jlg.com/en/equipment/vertical-lifts-stock-pickers/driveable-mast-boom/mvl-series/20mvl

It's drive-able, needs no outriggers and has a bucket extension to allow access to hard-to-get-to positions. The 15MVL might fit your needs as you can reach to 21 ft or so. We've focused units at 25 ft with our unit who's platform is at 19'6".

It also weighs 2200lbs and is very pricey. Ours was at at least $10,000 in '06 or so and I think they are upwards of $15,000 now.

They are only cost effective if you use it a lot, as Footer said, for repeated focusing. I would hazard that it's been a good investment for us as it does not require 2 extra electricians on a call to deal with outriggers. 

And you need to be able to use it on a stage/floor that can support the weight. We reinforced our stage floor when it was getting renovated, with a 2nd layer of 3/4 ply under the 3" oak T&G so as to handle the weight. 

It was a great investment and I can say that having it has made us more efficient and safer as you eliminate the temptation to roll someone around in a Genie with outriggers whose feet are floating.


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## sk8rsdad (Sep 18, 2014)

Adding to Steve's comments, we have a Genie GR-20 runabout, but the GR-15 sounds like a better fit for your space. JLG and SkyJack have similar products. They all weigh about the same. Ours was purchased in May for just under $14,000 CAD.


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## Skervald (Sep 22, 2014)

Thanks for the input, everyone. I'm checking with an engineer to figure out exactly how much weight I can get away with on that sprung floor. Something like the IWP-20S that doesn't require outriggers would be really convenient. Something drive-able would be phenomenal. I'm not sure what I'll do with all my spare time if this actually goes through!

Here's a follow up question: Would pneumatic tires instead of the usual hard rubber let me use a heavier machine? I'm sure the tires have a range of acceptable pressure. Would running them at the lower end increase the surface area enough to make a difference? Certainly this would only affect the point load and not the total weight being supported by the floor...unless I filled the tires with helium.


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## danTt (Sep 25, 2014)

I have to put in a vote against the IWP series. They are a terrible pain to move and steer, and weigh much much more than the AWP series. The outriggers aren't that much work to deal with, and I find the footprint of the IWP makes it harder to get into tight places than the AWP.


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## TheaterEd (Sep 25, 2014)

danTt said:


> I have to put in a vote against the IWP series. They are a terrible pain to move and steer, and weigh much much more than the AWP series. The outriggers aren't that much work to deal with, and I find the footprint of the IWP makes it harder to get into tight places than the AWP.


I guess I would disagree. I've never had a problem getting my IWP where I need it, whereas I have had issues placing the outriggers on an AWP around sets. It is heavier to steer, but I like that it is pretty much impossible to raise someone to the electrics and then roll them along adjusting lights. I know that it is convenient but it is an unsafe practice that has no place in an educational setting (or any other really. Your life isn't worth saving a couple of minutes). Every space that I have used an AWP, the outriggers have been circumvented one way or another.

Just my two cents. I love my IWP, but make sure your floor can support the weight.


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## robartsd (Oct 1, 2014)

Skervald said:


> Here's a follow up question: Would pneumatic tires instead of the usual hard rubber let me use a heavier machine? I'm sure the tires have a range of acceptable pressure. Would running them at the lower end increase the surface area enough to make a difference? Certainly this would only affect the point load and not the total weight being supported by the floor...unless I filled the tires with helium.


 
I don't think pneumatic tires would help - unless they're large enough that each wheel bears weight over multiple framing members supporting the deck at all times.


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## robartsd (Oct 1, 2014)

Footer said:


> Has anyone actually tried one of those? I have always felt little giants are rather dangerous to get setup and take down. With the additional weight of the bucket that thing would be a real bear to deal with.


 

StradivariusBone said:


> I've used the regular ones without any difficulty as long as you have help. I can see doing it alone would be risky, but I'd be happier 12' up on that than on a regular A-frame.


 
My experience with regular Little Giant ladders has been that they are prefferable to any other similarly sized ladder I've come across. Yes, setting up and taking down a tall A-frame type ladder needs to be done carefully to be safe, and I can understand Footer's concerns about the impact that the cage has on the setup/takedown of the Little Giant product linked to; however, I'm curious if Footer has anything to add about problems setting up and taking down Little Giants in particular.


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## afreeradical (Oct 1, 2014)

For a small theatre this is my favorite lift. 
I've used over 20 different lifts that I can think of over the last 30 years
But this one out does them all for reasons unsafe to get into on a forum with students.

http://www.purplewave.com/cgi-bin/mnlist.cgi?121106/V9312

Just found the 1st website with good picture

The IWP 20s with the Extendo bucket totally Rocks as well... Yes VERY hard to move especially on slippery floors
But the extention bucket makes up for Not being able to move while elevated ....
My theatre bought 2 we liked them so much...
Make sure you know your stage floor weight capacity before making decision and spending money

http://www.genielift.com/en/products/aerial-work-platforms/iwp-super-series/index.htm


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## BillConnerFASTC (Oct 2, 2014)

I don't think pneumatic tires solve a floor loading problem and would worry a sudden flat would tip a lift at least enough to dampen pants. Sprung floors can be designed for these loads, scissor lifts, and lift truck loads which are much greater.


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## Footer (Oct 2, 2014)

robartsd said:


> I'm curious if Footer has anything to add about problems setting up and taking down Little Giants in particular.



I have never met one that I have felt gracefully goes up or comes down. I always feel like you are a second away from getting something badly pinched/crushed or having the whole thing collapse when you are on it. For a venue, I would rather have a few different fiberglass ladders around. Less time to setup, less training for the crew, and more reliability. I can see where a little giant would be great for the handy man or mobile tradesman that deals with it every day and needs something that will fit in a van. However, if you have the storage space go with a real solution.


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## StradivariusBone (Oct 2, 2014)

Footer said:


> I always feel like you are a second away from getting something badly pinched/crushed or having the whole thing collapse when you are on it.



The only time I feel that way is when I've used them as extension ladders. I won't argue that, I feel unstable with that config. 

That being said, you're 100% correct about proper training with them. I'd argue that it falls into the same category as personnel lifts with the need for proper instruction. I have not used one that is newer than 5-7 years old though, the new models look a bit more rugged. I only use the one our church has when I need to get access to our speaker lofts.

Speaking of proper training-


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## robartsd (Oct 2, 2014)

Footer said:


> I have never met one that I have felt gracefully goes up or comes down. I always feel like you are a second away from getting something badly pinched/crushed or having the whole thing collapse when you are on it. For a venue, I would rather have a few different fiberglass ladders around. Less time to setup, less training for the crew, and more reliability. I can see where a little giant would be great for the handy man or mobile tradesman that deals with it every day and needs something that will fit in a van. However, if you have the storage space go with a real solution.


 
I can see the risk of pinching when adjusting the legs. There's a bit of an art to supporting the inner leg when extending/colapsing the outer leg - not very difficult to learn, but still requires some attention. I also see the point of added time for setup and takedown. I've never tried one as an extension ladder, but once set up as an A-frame they seem quite sturdy to me.


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## Skervald (Oct 2, 2014)

A few thoughts and further questions:

I guess the pneumatic tire question was wishful thinking although I'm disappointed no one figured out the volume of the tires and how much lift they would provide if filled with helium.

I recently had a chance to use an AWP 20-S and was pretty impressed but I can see how the outriggers could slow things down a bit. Several have mentioned the IWP series are a pain to move around. Is it the maneuverability that suffers? Is it just the additional weight?


> But this one out does them all for reasons unsafe to get into on a forum with students.



Maybe I'm naive but I have no clue what this means.


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## TheaterEd (Oct 2, 2014)

Skervald said:


> A few thoughts and further questions:
> 
> I guess the pneumatic tire question was wishful thinking although I'm disappointed no one figured out the volume of the tires and how much lift they would provide if filled with helium.
> 
> ...


The IWP is very heavy which inhibits its maneuverability. Its very nimble, but difficult to get moving and you will need several people to get it up any kind of incline. 

As far as the 'advanced technique' that students shouldn't utilize, I mention the scenario in post [HASHTAG]#12[/HASHTAG].

The fact that the IWP cannot use this technique, is my favorite part about it. Too many close calls.


Also, as far as helium in the tires. Mythbusters tested the idea of a helium filled football, and found that the helium had no effect... sorry


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## robartsd (Oct 2, 2014)

Skervald said:


> I guess the pneumatic tire question was wishful thinking although I'm disappointed no one figured out the volume of the tires and how much lift they would provide if filled with helium.


 
The ideal gas law teaches us that for a given temperature and volume, the presure is determined by the amount of gas particles pressent (typically measured in moles). Air is about 7 times as dense as helium at the same pressure(28.013 g/mol for Nitrogen vs. 4.0026 g/mol for helium). If the tires are inflated to about 7 times atmospheric pressure (about 90 psi above atmospheric pressure) then the weight of the helium would be equal to the weight of the displaced air and thus would provide no boyancy. At about 37 psi above atmospheric pressure, the helium in the tires would be about half the weight of the displaced air providing less than 1/20 of a pound of lift per cubic foot. Inflating the tires with helium would have negligable effect on the overall weight of the tire, let alone the lift.


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## Skervald (Oct 2, 2014)

That's what I'm talking about!


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## microstar (Oct 2, 2014)

robartsd said:


> I can see the risk of pinching when adjusting the legs. There's a bit of an art to supporting the inner leg when extending/colapsing the outer leg - not very difficult to learn, but still requires some attention. I also see the point of added time for setup and takedown. I've never tried one as an extension ladder, but once set up as an A-frame they seem quite sturdy to me.



For me, the Little Giants work well but it's wise to use two people to set up and take down the A-frame configuration. The only time I had to use one as an extension ladder was very scary; the splayed-out bottom rungs are great for stability, but make the extension configuration extremely top heavy, which is definitely not a good thing when trying to put up and take down. I would never use one as an extension ladder again.


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## gafftaper (Oct 10, 2014)

My previous gig was in a Black Box with a sprung floor and it was about 19 feet from the floor to the underside of the catwalks. I went to my local Scaffolding dealer and purchased a scaffold that was 12' high plus wheels... which raises the top deck height up to 13'. Safety rails on top, a couple half deck sections for the lower levels and a top deck with a hatch so you can climb up the inside and pass gear up the inside of the scaffold. Cost was about $700 if I remember right with all new parts. Best of all it was wide and stable and designed to be safely rolled around with someone on top of it with no outriggers. Made life REALLY easy for me.


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## len (Oct 10, 2014)

http://www.jlg.com/en/equipment/vertical-lifts-stock-pickers/driveable-stock-pickers


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## TheaterEd (Oct 10, 2014)

len said:


> http://www.jlg.com/en/equipment/vertical-lifts-stock-pickers/driveable-stock-pickers


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## Dionysus (Oct 15, 2014)

TheaterEd said:


> View attachment 11171


You know you waaaannnnntt one!

lol the StarTech warehouse in London, Ontario has some really nice ones. I was in there working on an addition to their offices and some other stuff. Was bending some 1/2" EMT with them zipping around behind me, kept having to get my conduit out of their way. There we were using ladders, dodging the pickers.


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## Catwalker (Nov 6, 2014)

We have a JLG 30AM lift, which works just fine. Small machine, and stores well. It's not heavy (relatively) and fits through the average door. That product is at least 10 years old now, though...


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## BobHealey (Nov 6, 2014)

Make sure you have enough funds for the annual safety inspection and tune up.


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## Skervald (Nov 6, 2014)

Good call on the annual inspection. I'm leaning toward the JLG 19AMI or the Genie IWP 20s. Anyone have any experience with the JLG?


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## Tex (Nov 23, 2014)

I have the JLG 41AM. Easy to deal with until you get close to a wall, then the outriggers can be an issue.


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