# Dmx controller for jets



## SanTai (Dec 24, 2010)

Hi!

I am a Swedish pyrotechnician looking for some advice on DMX systems. Before you say that dmx is not suitable for pyro, I just have to say that I will not use it for pyro, I have dedicated hardware for that, both digital and analogue.

My team and I am thinking of expanding to also use flame jets. This is way I am asking for advice. Pyro controllers are made for firing e-matches, usually only once. You do not program the digital ones for how long they will send their signal. Some even use capacitive discharge.

The problem is that flame jets are made to be fired many times and for varible length of time. This is why almost all commercial flame jets are made to be fired via dmx, since the use is similar to lightning control.(On/Off multiple times)

Now I have explained myself and hopefully calmed those of you that I scared by using both pyro and dmx in the same sentence. The question.

I am looking for a system for controlling flame jets via dmx(the main safety switch will not be dmx controlled). I would want a cheap system for starters. I would like to use a usb-dmx dongle with a software and perhaps a usb wing.
However I would like it to be able to receive timecode(fsk and smpte) or midi, from the same computer would be sufficient. I want to play a track with music and one with timecode/midi so that it is perfectly in sync.
The reason for this is that I want it to sync with music. I would like to be able to program something like this: YouTube - Pyromusical von Pyroarte
without to much trouble

I am not a native english speaker but I hope you understand me and get what i want to achieve.


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## DuckJordan (Dec 25, 2010)

SanTai said:


> Hi!
> 
> I am a Swedish pyrotechnician looking for some advice on DMX systems. Before you say that dmx is not suitable for pyro, I just have to say that I will not use it for pyro, I have dedicated hardware for that, both digital and analogue.
> 
> ...


 

You were very clear in what you are saying, I would suggest using a hire end setup though than a cheap PC to DMX system. The reason for it even though you are not controlling too much with the DMX system there are too many problems in DMX to effectivly control it completely. You covered it by having the main switch being analogue or digital seperate system. But If you want the control then go with a higher end system. The inherent problems in DMX are compounded by using cheap hardware which in this situation could equal death.


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## SanTai (Dec 25, 2010)

DuckJordan said:


> You were very clear in what you are saying, I would suggest using a hire end setup though than a cheap PC to DMX system. The reason for it even though you are not controlling too much with the DMX system there are too many problems in DMX to effectivly control it completely. You covered it by having the main switch being analogue or digital seperate system. But If you want the control then go with a higher end system. The inherent problems in DMX are compounded by using cheap hardware which in this situation could equal death.




If used on stage(or another scenario were you risk injuring someone in case of misfire) I will of course not use the kind of system I am requesting here. I want it purely for usage in small pyromusicals which economically can not support buying a high end system.

Is there low budget software/hardware able to easily do what I want? Note that synchronization(with a recorded soundtrack) is of highest importance.


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## Les (Dec 25, 2010)

I know that a lot of people use Chamsys MagicQ (available for free download) but I have no idea about its SMPTE and music synchronicity and if the free -or any- version has that option. I've only tooled around on it a little bit, myself. I also read somewhere that you can only use the free version for 5 hours per session before it times out, but that would have to be confirmed. 

You would need a USB --> DMX adapter for about $150 (an Enttec would be the ticket) and wings are available, but possibly a little redundant for your application. The wings are pretty expensive.


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## metti (Dec 26, 2010)

I believe that MagicQ does not offer MIDI or SMTPE functionality unless you are using it with their official hardware. You would be looking at several hundred dollars for one of their official dongles.


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## SanTai (Dec 26, 2010)

SMPTE or MIDI is not necessarily a requirement.

Is there software that lets you play the music and dmx from the same program(in sync) and then have a line out from the computer?

How do they do it in laser shows? Even if they use way more advanced dmx control is there some software that is made for doing laser shows that can be used for my purpose? Even though I just need a few channels an only play with on/off.

Timecode wise the best would be if it could support FSK since that is what is used by PD but that is later problem. Now it just have to work with one computer as a controller.


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## mstaylor (Dec 26, 2010)

If you are going run the cues manually then you don't need the timecode or midi but if you want it to run to the music consistantly then you will need one method or the other, or a combination.


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## SanTai (Dec 26, 2010)

I am not going to shoot the cues manually, I want to use DMX to do programmed, automated and synced show.

It was just a wild thought that there might exist software that both play the music and send the dmx signal.

Are there software that somewhat easily do what I want to achieve. Control lightning after timecode.


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## icewolf08 (Dec 26, 2010)

I think that you might find it easier to run a piece of audio software rather than lighting software. With software like Q-Lab or SFX you could load your audio track and have that send MIDI commands at given intervals during the track. Then you could use MIDI controlled relays (something like the MIDI Solutions R8) to fire your effect. Since the relay just provides an "on/off" switch this might be the safest, simplest, and most inexpensive option. I don't know how much current you need to fire your effect so you might have to use the MIDI relay to operate a line voltage relay, but that shouldn't be hard to build. You may also be able to have a company like MIDI solutions build you a custom MIDI relay that can handle a higher current application.

If you are interested in a hardware solution you might look at a show controller device like the Richmond Sound Design Audiobox. The new version of the audiobox can be configured many ways with audio and MIDI inputs and outputs. You can load audio files into the device, program your show and tell it to play back at specific times of day if you wanted to. You could do the same thing and control your effects using MIDI relays and just set the MIDI commands in sync with the audio that you load in the device.

I think that solutions like this are far better than using a lighting controller.


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## mstaylor (Dec 26, 2010)

I pointed him originally to the Freener DMX relays, he has both line voltage or low voltage. I also directed him to Enttec for an easy way to create the DMX signal. here are a number of sound based programs to fire the cues.


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## n1ist (Dec 27, 2010)

What about the packages that the Christmas lighting guys use (LSP, Vixen, etc.)? They are designed to sync lighting cues to music, and most will allow DMX output with the appropriate dongle.
/mike


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## SanTai (Dec 27, 2010)

Thanks for all the suggestions I am trying to investigate all of them the best I can. There are solutions that you have posted that I believe will work, however I want to find the easiest and best one.

About the midi solution: I am not going to fire a e-match, only control a DMX reley or perhaps a switchpack depending on the flame projectors we decide to use. Dmx is used for the control of most commercial flame projectors. Or can you convert midi -> dmx?

These Christmas controllers, are they reliable?

What do you use to do a laser show? Could I use something created for that?


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## mstaylor (Dec 27, 2010)

In your research check this thread and see if any of it helps. 
Syncing sound


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## porkchop (Dec 31, 2010)

I talked to one of my co-workers that used to work with a large flame projector set up in a big theme park in Texas. This system is not in use today and if it was it would be something close to 20 years old, but they used Allen Bradley automation software on a computer to trigger solenoids to release the gas, and the same system actually sent power to the igniters to light the gas as well. The only part of the system that wasn't completely controlled by the computer was the manual shut off next to the operator.
Rockwell Automation now owns Allen Bradley, but we use a few of their products (controllable via a non-dim) for a high pressure water effect and they are very reliable. I think if assembled properly Allen Bradley products would be usable for a such a system, I know nothing about what kind of software they have available these days though.


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## derekleffew (Dec 31, 2010)

What porkchop said.

Another example:


An ETC Expression 2x tells, via DMX512, an Allen Bradley PLC to fire the jets; and IF all the PLC's safety requirements are met, it does. 
(The Mirage Volcano was remodeled in 2008, so it likely uses other equipment today.)


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## DiscoBoxer (Jan 2, 2011)

derekleffew said:


> What porkchop said.
> 
> Another example:View attachment 4239
> 
> ...


 

Derek hit it on the nail for a cost effective solution. Using a PLC would work if programmed and interfaced correctly. If you go the standard DMX route, how were you planning on validating that your ignition source is operational during the event? Do your valves auto-shut if the ignition source fails?

As you may know, the majority of flame projector systems operate independent and many of the pro systems have a timcode option....usually SMPTE to help you sync with other systems.

What system do you use for firing your other effects? We use FireOne for most of our displays and FireOne does offer flame control options with both their FireLite and Master Modules. Their flame projectors are 4 channel DMX control that taps right into FireOne, but you will want to also purchase their flamecontrol software(s) so that you can program the length of the event rather than a short burst of current. The system also incorporates the safety (like an ematch continuity) of verified ignition source.

The total system is not cheap, but since you stated you have digital firing options, you may already have the baseline FireOne stuff.

Also, I like the name. We import quite a bit of SanTai product. When it was made in Japan, their was better quality with the effects being more symmetrical, but it is still a fantastic product line.


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## lightingguy1 (Jan 2, 2011)

So something sush as this is a REALLY bad Idea?

P2-C Flame Projector Stage Effects Show Fire Machine - eBay (item 190480705506 end time Jan-14-11 17:56:03 PST)



And Would this be of better design:


YouTube - TBF Flamemaster

or even:

YouTube - Stage Flame.wmv


Thnx!
-Lightingguy1


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## SanTai (Jan 2, 2011)

Nice that you noticed the name, however personally I do prefer Parente but they are way more expensive.

We do not use FireOne so that is out of the quiestion. We hire Pyrodigital from time to time, when in need. For lowbudget shows we shoot analogue and use FSQ Sequencer, and that equipment is not that flame projector friendly. That is why we are looking into the lightning control area.

Both the TBF and the MagicFX are on our list as possible systems that we will buy. Both offers a possibility to have a deadmans-switch on the powersupply and the MagicFX also use a DMX safety channel. Most system have built in IR ignition-source control and the systems I have been in contact with rely on the controller to do the synchronization.

We are still evaluating the costs/use ability/safety/expandability that is why I am here. If we have to pay 20 000 euro(~US dollars) on DMX control only it is not a viable option, since it will be used on low budget shows were there is a controlled fire-zone and not on stage, at least not with the cheap equipment. And when speaking to some lightning control guys they said that there are very powerful tools for use together with a usb-DMX dongle so that is way I am here to see what's out there or if someone has a another solution.


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## porkchop (Jan 3, 2011)

I think lightingguy1 just found the solution for you. I pulled up the TBF catalog and they have a few different flame projectors, but most importantly they have a couple different ways to control pyro via DMX 512, and some software to do it as well. Here's a link to the catalog in English http://www.pyrojunkies.com/updates09/tbfproductrange.pdf. I can't find a good website for TBF and I've never heard of them so you might have to do a bit of reliability and safety research on your own, but they seem to at least make exactly what you're looking for.


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## SanTai (Jan 3, 2011)

I do know of TBF and their products and the flame part of the system is not what I am looking for here, that part I've got covered with different good options, thanks anyway.

What TBF refer to as DMX controller is their powercon switchpack with some extra safety features, it is not a dmx lightboard or anything like it. Just a switch pack.
Link for their site: TBF pyrotec GmbH it is in German though.

So I am still looking for a good(for what I want to do) DMX controller. What is a cue that is only a short flash called? I am not wanting a chase or first a cue for on and then 1/10 of a second later a second cue for off. I want a cue that turns a channel on for a set amount of time...
Such a cue would save a lot of time if I go the midi way, like dmxis.

Is there a similar program that use some kind of timecode? I am having a hard time finding one.


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## derekleffew (Jan 3, 2011)

SanTai said:


> ...What is a cue that is only a short flash called? ...


In PLC parlance, it's called a "one-shot." For a lighting console, it would require two cues with a wait (or delay, depending on console terminology) time in between.


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