# LED Lighting?



## Sylak (Dec 13, 2006)

Ok, our district recently yelled at our Drama Department because of how much money spent on lamps in the Coloured Strips and House lights, so we're going to look into LED lights, however I have a few questions for the more educated: 

What brands do you reccomend?
Is it possible to get LED Fresnels? Or do you need LED PAR's with Fresnel lenses?
Do you reccomend any specific type of LED Cyc light?
Any replies would be greatly appreciated.


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## zac850 (Dec 13, 2006)

Well, if the district only yelled at you for the strip lights and house lights, I would look to replace only those. I have not had much experience with LED PARs and such, but it seems the intensity isn't anywhere close to what a 1K PAR would be.

For strips, I like the Color Blast/Color Blazes. I think they give very nice light. Color Kinetics would be a good company to start at, they make good gear. How much will you be looking to spend? There is a lot of stuff in the DJ price range, but as with everything else in life, you get what you pay for.


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## gafftaper (Dec 13, 2006)

First off do you have any idea how much LED's cost? Strips start around $1000 per foot... You can burn a lot of energy for the cost of replacing your strips. On the flip side your lighting will really rock if you can get them. 

Color Kinetics products jump to the top of the list for many. However I encourage you to check out Selador. At LDI everyone was at the Color Kinetics booth... but I was really disappointed compared to the Selador Instruments. http://www.selador.net/ The selador's have a lot more kick to them. They are built like a serious theatrical instrument. The Color Kinetics history is archetectural lighting that has been adapted for theater. The Selador history began with a USITT grant to research the best LED color mixing. Some top industry pros spent a year researching. Once they figured out the best product they took their research and went into business. There is a lot of information about this on their website don't miss the 18 page pdf file on the technology page it's fascinating. The key is they use 7 colors to mix white, not just the 3 that Color Kinetics uses. That means much better deep color saturation and much better whites. 

I'm working on a package for a new theater and want to include some LED's. A set of 10- 4 foot Selador strips in the new 3 watt version with yokes, and the lenses to control the spread is about $60,000. You can get the 1 Watt version for about 25% less but once you've seen the 3 watt, you will always be disappointed. I believe that Color Kinetics is using all 1 watt lamps still and they are priced around $1000 per foot.

As for Pars, Altman is using Color Kinetics technology for their pars. So that's a good place to look. But your cost is going ot be insane.


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## Van (Dec 13, 2006)

Sylak said:


> Ok, our district recently yelled at our Drama Department because of how much money spent on lamps in the Coloured Strips and House lights, so we're going to look into LED lights, however I have a few questions for the more educated:
> 
> What brands do you reccomend?
> Is it possible to get LED Fresnels? Or do you need LED PAR's with Fresnel lenses?
> ...


 
For as cool as I think led lighting is and how I truly believe it will one day revolutionize our industry, I have to throw in my 2 cents worth and say, not yet. The Colors aren't there yet, the intensity is not there yet, the cost is ridiculous. I suggest you do your home work then show the school district how much it would cost to save the cost of lamps. 
LED lighting will get there. I'm sure a lot of people are going to disagree with me and say it's perfect, my opinion will still stand , Give it three to five years. Let somebody else , say Broadway, spend all thier money on what will turn into R&D money.


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## cutlunch (Dec 13, 2006)

Sylak a lot of good stuff has been said about LED lighting so I will comment about something else.

First when you say House lights does this mean the lights that provide the light for the audience to get in the theatre? Which is what it would mean here in NZ. Or are you using to indicate the theatre lights that are over the audience to light the stage?

Now my first thought would be why are you blowing so many lights? I have done shows with two week runs + rehearsal time and only had at most two lights blow and that was due to old age. What model strip lights are you using and have these got the correct rated bulbs in them.

Are people blowing bulbs when they focus them? This is quite easy to do if you have the level set to high when moving them during focus.
Are you using pre-heat ?

Also how clean is your power supply ? Do you notice sudden dips and spikes in the odinary lights.

Your school might buy you the LED lights but if they are complaing about the lamp budget wait to they see the cost of LED fittings.

Also a lot of the time blowing an excessive number lamps can come down to bad practice. It is this bad practice that needs to be worked on.

Also another thing that can be looked at is the quality of the lamps you are buying. Ship maybe able to tell you the best performing / enduring lamp for each type of fixture. It maybe if you are blowing a lot of the same type of lamp is it a bad batch? Once again Ship would probably know what problems are out there.

If you look into this problem and manage to bring it under control the School District will look more favourably on the drama department in the future.

I know you won't have an exact figure but what sort % of bulbs need replacing each year?

By the way I am not anti LED lighting I just think you should get a handle on the cause of the problem. This would apply especially if there is a problem with the power supply which could then damage the LED lights as well.


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## SHARYNF (Dec 13, 2006)

I'm about to evaluate 12 par 64 type led units for a project I have coming up.

They are made in China inexpensive but seem to be better than the ADJ Chauvet. 

The output level seems to be around a 250 watt. Really depends on how you use them for washes etc they seem to work quite well, and for concert type stuff if you can control the rest of the lights my thinking is these might work well. Looks like you can get around 10 or 11 different colors that look good (of course you can mix and create colors but from a practical standpoint 10 + useful colors, and they have built in dimming, only use 4 channels r g b white.

A lot depends on say your potential par set up.

If for instance you said 10 colors, you would have roughly the equiv of 2500 watts of color, spread out over 12 instruments. to do the same thing you would be looking at 120 pars which is a lot of instruments power and dimmer channels etc.

SO for some things my thinking is that these might work

Sharyn


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## Sylak (Dec 13, 2006)

First off to gafftaper:
We're not planing on getting LED strips, mostly because its a six figure money to revamp the on stage electrics with asbestos and needing to upgrade to boxes where the electric unplugs for fire code reasons

Next off to cutlunch

cutlunch said:


> Sylak a lot of good stuff has been said about LED lighting so I will comment about something else.
> 
> First when you say House lights does this mean the lights that provide the light for the audience to get in the theatre? Which is what it would mean here in NZ. Or are you using to indicate the theatre lights that are over the audience to light the stage?



House lights as in lights which provide light over the audience.


cutlunch said:


> Now my first thought would be why are you blowing so many lights? I have done shows with two week runs + rehearsal time and only had at most two lights blow and that was due to old age. What model strip lights are you using and have these got the correct rated bulbs in them.



The auditorium is alot used during the day as a class room, so with the wing planel/panic buttons on, we have both strips and house lights on blowing them. As to model. I'm not sure but i do know we have the proper rated bulbs in them (150 Watt)


cutlunch said:


> Are people blowing bulbs when they focus them? This is quite easy to do if you have the level set to high when moving them during focus.
> Are you using pre-heat ?



The Fresles aren't where we're blowing bulbs, but we did get a nice hidden compliant about power usage regarding our lights, hence why we're looking at LED's


cutlunch said:


> Also how clean is your power supply ? Do you notice sudden dips and spikes in the odinary lights.



No, it's very constant. I believe we got the dimer system completely redone in '95, but not to sure about that, I'll check it out.


cutlunch said:


> Your school might buy you the LED lights but if they are complaing about the lamp budget wait to they see the cost of LED fittings.



They offered the LED's because they have the view of even if the fixtures are more expensive, they'll be saving energy and bulb costs in the long run


cutlunch said:


> Also a lot of the time blowing an excessive number lamps can come down to bad practice. It is this bad practice that needs to be worked on.



The last time we actually bought Strip and House bulbs (before this year) was 5 years ago, but its pretty expensive whenever we do (6 boxes of each 150w and 200w bulbs)


cutlunch said:


> If you look into this problem and manage to bring it under control the School District will look more favourably on the drama department in the future.


Well they're buying us a Congo Jr next year so...


cutlunch said:


> I know you won't have an exact figure but what sort % of bulbs need replacing each year?



About 60%-80% of the Strips, and probably about 70% of the House Lights


cutlunch said:


> By the way I am not anti LED lighting I just think you should get a handle on the cause of the problem. This would apply especially if there is a problem with the power supply which could then damage the LED lights as well.



Like mentioned earlier, the problem is that we actually have some drama-style classes that use the aud, that i don't think we should drop (improv and public speaking) and they use strips/house for 1-2 periods each day (90 minutes per period because of the block scheduling) plus you add concerts, club meetings, and performances as well as other assemblies, so we're already doing what we can.

To Van:
As always, your wisdom like insight brings thought to the table. thanks for the input

And in general:
With what we're going for, replacing the Fresnels on 1st and 2nd electric electric with LED's and our old scoops with Cyc lights (with cyc lights being a priority) the idea is to save money on lamps and energy despite the cost.


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## Pie4Weebl (Dec 13, 2006)

color blazes are amazing for cyc washes. My college got a package of them and they are brilliant, it is also nice to save all those circuits.


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## BillESC (Dec 13, 2006)

The Altman fixtures are not as expensive as you would think and offer an output close to a 1K Par 64.

When you consider a 95% reduction in electrical consumption and the savings from not having to buy gel or replace a bulb for 60,000 hours of operation, the fixtures in fact more than pay for themselves quite quickly.


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## JSFox (Dec 14, 2006)

I agree with cutlunch. Look at WHY you're blowing lamps first. Something don't sound right with all that you're saying. Of course, if you still have asbestos around I'd say you are due for some replacement...

I'm a big fan of LED's, but I don't think there is any way with current price/performance to even come close to justifying them on any sort of cost saving basis (though I try).

ColorKinetics - A very significant percentage of the cost of ANY LED instrument sold in the US goes to ColorKinetics and their attorneys. I normally stick up for patent and copyright holders but in this case I don't. I do not believe ColorKinetics has a solid enough basis for many of their lawsuits and I dislike they way they're holding the industry hostage.


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## BillESC (Dec 14, 2006)

JSFox said:


> I'm a big fan of LED's, but I don't think there is any way with current price/performance to even come close to justifying them on any sort of cost saving basis (though I try).


Actually savings can be significant.
Using the Altman Star Par as compared to a 1K Par 64 here's what 60,000 hours of operation costs.
The Par 64 will need 30 replacement bulbs at a cost of about $ 750.00
The Par 64 costs one kilowatt per hour to operate. At $ .06/KWH your electrical expense for 60,000 hours will be $ 3600.00
The Star Par will need no replacement bulbs.
The Star Par uses approximately 50w per hour. Using the same KWH rate, 60,000 hours will have an electrical expense of $ 180.00
I won't even go into the cost of gel.


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## jklak (Dec 14, 2006)

It seems like you could reduce the wear and tear on your equipment by limiting what gets used every day. Classes probably don't need several thousand watts of illumination every day. Why don't you point a couple of scoops at the stage and have the classes use those two instruments and the house lights on a daily basis? Just a thought. Take it or leave it.


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## Pie4Weebl (Dec 14, 2006)

whats the cost of a star par?


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## zac850 (Dec 14, 2006)

jklak said:


> It seems like you could reduce the wear and tear on your equipment by limiting what gets used every day. Classes probably don't need several thousand watts of illumination every day. Why don't you point a couple of scoops at the stage and have the classes use those two instruments and the house lights on a daily basis? Just a thought. Take it or leave it.



Yep. If the real issue is that a classroom is running all the fixtures, then lets give the classroom something else to use. Get perhaps 3 scoops and just shoot them down for the classes. Rig a switch so that the teacher can walk in flip the switch, and the scoops go on. Don't even run it through your dimmers. Also, I suggest explaining that if the district wants to have good quality shows, something that they can be proud of, they are going to have to spend a few dollars on lamps. For what your talking about, LEDs are a frankly absurd idea.

Good luck
Zac


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## BillESC (Dec 14, 2006)

Actually I misspoke, the Altman unit is called the Spectra Par and sells around the $ 1300.00 range.


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## Sylak (Dec 14, 2006)

zac850 said:


> Yep. If the real issue is that a classroom is running all the fixtures, then lets give the classroom something else to use. Get perhaps 3 scoops and just shoot them down for the classes. Rig a switch so that the teacher can walk in flip the switch, and the scoops go on. Don't even run it through your dimmers. Also, I suggest explaining that if the district wants to have good quality shows, something that they can be proud of, they are going to have to spend a few dollars on lamps. For what your talking about, LEDs are a frankly absurd idea.
> 
> Good luck
> Zac



That would work if the teacher didn't have both a booth key direct a play. plus, both theatre classes use the full stage more often than not, which is the main problem. (that and nobody feeels the need to reprogram teh panics and wing panel, and the pit scoops are on the wing panel not panic buttons

But we don't use all teh lights durring classes, it's just the 3rd electric scoops, pit scoops, and the strips. Out 1st and 2nd electric fresnels are off and need to be controlled by the lighting console, so the order of priority of replaceing fixtures is scoops (replace with cyclos) then strips, teh teh Fresnels, and then when we run out of house lights order LED bulbs so it's done slowly, and probably not untill i get out of this school so the funds can be done over several yeras


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## zac850 (Dec 14, 2006)

I know of a theater that has 4 halogen floods as non dims (2 on first and 2nd electric). I would suggest taking the time and running a few non-dim lines and perhaps then setting up some halogen top light. Again, non-dim.

This should allow enough light on stage and not burn out your strips.

LEDs aren't what you want. They are not bright enough, and are probably much too expensive.


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## Sylak (Dec 14, 2006)

a neighboring school distrit ive worked in has teh flood lights, but only for they're wings. I don't feel they're actually bright enough to teach a theater class in. Also, its interusting how many peopel have told me that LED's are bright enough and how many have told me they aren't. Certainly not bright enough for LEKO replacement, but from waht i've see of LED's first hand definatley bright enough for PAR or Fresnel replacement


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## SHARYNF (Dec 14, 2006)

The trick with LED's IMO is to look at them from the perspective that each instrument can easily be putting out the color you are looking for, so unless you have scrollers on PARs or Fresnels, you wind up with many more led's that you can assign to a given color, SO while each instrument may be lower in output, the overall output level in comparison can be very similar.

I agree we are not there in Leko's to say the least, BUT 10WATT LED'S are getting more practical and could be combined for a combination of color and output 

Sharyn


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## Andrewr (Dec 15, 2006)

What nobody has said yet is what the actual performance of the fixture is like.

So far the only units I have seen worth the trouble are the SGM Palco 3's and the £50 made in China LED PAR56 stuff.

The Palco's are reasonalby good. But only for uplighting and other accent type stuff. They can't do a full spectrum white (only 1 brand of LED light can get close. And it uses 7 colour mixing to get a decent white)

The £50 stuff is good because of the cost, its not that much more than the cost of 2 Par64's (inc lamps!) per unit. Its nowhere near the output, but gives a fantastic blue and the gel never melts (when uplighting)

To give a real equivalent you are going to need lots of fixtures, even of the Luxeon (or indeed of the new and quite scary 20w edixeon) LED's. 

I had a demo of a 36x3w RGB unit for Arcitechrual use, it was a nice narrow beam, but needed to be about 4 times brighter before it would be a reasonable replacement for Par64. This unit cost £750 plus (PLUS!!!) contoller/driver. And is actually very representative of current technology.

The Single most popular LED fixture (apart from possibly the £50 par56 stuff) is the Thomas Pixel Line (in the UK at least) because of what it can do, not how bright it is. Interesting eh?

And thats without getting into the whole problem of them being pure colour units (compare the transmission spectrum of a blue LED and your favorate blue gel) Then point them at things. (I love it, you can uplight wood with blue without it looking green!)

Its nice that people are looking at reducing electricty bills, but are you willing to compromise your lighting? I have 4 LED par56 (cheap chinese tat) and will be getting 12 more (I installed 90 in the foyer!) primarily for uplighting and lighting drum kits and stuff (we do quite a few rock gigs) But the most I would use them for is cyc washes. They just don't work for lighting people. Or make decent beams in haze!


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## SHARYNF (Dec 15, 2006)

I'm with Andrew, I think that for now, the led cheaper units are really the way to go, and use them for color wash, etc, you can get a lot of them they are cheap, use very little power and no Dimmer channels.

I think the higher end units are not there yet, and it will be a while before they can really complete with your larger pars/fresnels and lekos.

I think the only way to get white today with led's is to get a unit that is ONLY white, trying to mix to white just does not look very good.


Sharyn


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## VeeDubTDI (Dec 15, 2006)

We're using 16 ColorBlaze 72s at the concert hall, and I love them. There are 6 on the cyc, 3 on the 1st electric, and 3 on the 2nd electric. Two in each of the SL and SR galleries for side light since we get a lot of ballet groups in here. I'd like to have 2 more for the SL/SR galleries for more coverage upstage... but that'll happen next year. 

The LEDs are replacing our Altman MR-16 zip strips. The old MR-16 units would have to be relamped _daily_ at an approximate cost of $9500 per year in lamps.

We spent about $45,000 for the ColorBlaze units, and we estimate that between the savings in electricity, lamps, and gels, they will pay for themselves in under 3 years. Note that we got the ColorBlaze units at a discounted price because we're a 501c3 non-profit organization. Full price would have been somewhere closer to $60,000 for 16 units.

I can't rave about them enough. These LED strips are _amazing_ in every possible way.

As for house light lamp life, try running your house lights at 85% instead of 100%. That should effectively double your lamp life.


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## Andrewr (Dec 15, 2006)

Even the 'white' LED's have a HUGE spike in the blue. Look at the Lumens output of Warm white LED's its rubbish! But they are a decent white.


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## SHARYNF (Dec 15, 2006)

Some of the all white designs are looking at adding yellow so that you can reduce some of the blue level 

Sharyn


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## Van (Dec 15, 2006)

Andrewr said:


> Even the 'white' LED's have a HUGE spike in the blue. Look at the Lumens output of Warm white LED's its rubbish! But they are a decent white.


 
I've got one word for you, the hope and salvation of all things LED ...... Nanodots. 


I agree it's my primary issue with led lighting the colors just don't look "right" I don't know if it's because some wavelengths are too pure and others are not or that everything is too mixed.


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## Andrewr (Dec 16, 2006)

Its because its all pure colours. Compare the tranmission spectrum for a red LED and L106. All the other bits in the gel's spectrum are the bits that make it look 'right' and the LED 'wrong'

Its part of the reason people are developing stuff like 7 colour mixing for LED's that way you can begin to get near gel colour matching.


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## highschooltech (Dec 17, 2006)

Ive used hole hog LED panels but was not very satisfied by the results. It was pretty nice to aviod gell or scrollers to get the desired effect. However it didn't like the coverage. The light that was throw was weak and i was forced to use 12 pannels for a stage 30ft wide and about 15ft deep, from bars behnind the main. Another disadvantage was the price, luckily i had them donated from a friend of the troop i was working for who does trade shows, otherwise i would not have been able to afford them.


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## soundlight (Dec 17, 2006)

I've heard that some companies are developing RGBA and RGBAW mixing for more true color matching, but I haven't heard of 7-color mixing. RGBAW is Red Green Blue Amber White, so that you have alot more flexibility. I know that the PixelLine 110's have RGBA mixing, but they cost alot more than the colorblazes, if I remember correctly. The PixelRange from James Thomas has got the LED fixtures down pretty well for what can be done right now...I'm still waiting for people to start using the 10 watt LED's, though, they exist...but they're about 50/ea if purchased individually.


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## gafftaper (Dec 18, 2006)

soundlight said:


> I've heard that some companies are developing RGBA and RGBAW mixing for more true color matching, but I haven't heard of 7-color mixing. RGBAW is Red Green Blue Amber White, so that you have alot more flexibility. I know that the PixelLine 110's have RGBA mixing, but they cost alot more than the colorblazes, if I remember correctly. The PixelRange from James Thomas has got the LED fixtures down pretty well for what can be done right now...I'm still waiting for people to start using the 10 watt LED's, though, they exist...but they're about 50/ea if purchased individually.



I refer everyone reading page three talking about the issue of mixing a good white, back to my post on page one of the thread. Selador kicks Color Kinetics butt, with their 7 color LED mix. The white is dramaticly better and the range of colors is much larger as well. check out www.selador.net


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## soundlight (Dec 18, 2006)

Aha. Now I want to see ten watt LED's in Sealdor's. That'd be the most killer LED fixture ever.


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## gafftaper (Dec 18, 2006)

soundlight said:


> Aha. Now I want to see ten watt LED's in Sealdor's. That'd be the most killer LED fixture ever.



Dude you don't need 10 watts, the 3 watt Seladors are enough already. The Selador Booth at LDI had a set of 1 watters lighting the wall 30 feet in the air. They had a small two foot 3 watter they were using to show how good their white is and it was also lighting the ceiling... which is impressive in a conventional hall that size. The rep said they recommend the 3 watters for washes up to 70 feet. 

I was really disappointed with the total light output when I saw a demo of Color Kinetics. The Seladors on the other hand are easily as bright if not brighter than a standard zip strip especially in the fully satured colors. There's no way a zip strip with really dark blue gel in it comes close to a 3 watt Selador. Find a dealer and get yourself a demo.


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## SHARYNF (Dec 19, 2006)

Way on the other end of the spectrum, but has anyone looked at the led par38 medium base replacement lamps? Supposedly there seem to be simply screw in replacements from about 200 to 340 lumens. Recently prices seem to be plunging from the $50+ range to around $10.

Sharyn


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## soundlight (Dec 29, 2006)

To bring back an old(ish) topic for more recent discussions, and kind of related to the LED PAR shootout over on the prosoundweb lighting forums (which I've been keeping an eye on).

Which LED units have people actually used in a practical situation, and how did they work? Also, what have you heard about some of the other low-cost LED units from AMDJ and Wiedamark and other companies? I know that CenterStage Lighting brands their own RGB and White cans (possibly made by the same people that supply AMDJ with theirs? They look about the same), and Wiedamark has a P38 can, a P64 can w/o gel frame, and a P64 can w/gel frame. Chauvet also makes a few colorsplash units, and including the 196 and 200B. The 200B looks to be a promising wash unit. Wiedamark also has a low-priced wall washer unit that looks to be packaged in a strobe casing, which looks promising, as well as some LED strip lights in the lower price range. I also noticed that Omnisistem has an LED wash unit that is a meter long, and lots of them are being sold on eBay under other names for ~600-700 bucks.


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## bslproductions (Dec 13, 2007)

Why not use L&E Worklite CDM Fixtures, They are not dimmable, but would work for any class on stage, they use CDM 150w lamps with a lamp life of 10,000 hours and use a third the power of the scoops or cycs. I have seen them in several teaching theatres where they don't want the stage lights used for classes.


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## Sylak (Dec 13, 2007)

We're actually looking into the possability of repalcing our strip lamps with all halogeena lamps right now, but we're still pushing for some LED fixtures.


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## gafftaper (Dec 13, 2007)

Sylak said:


> We're actually looking into the possability of repalcing our strip lamps with all halogeena lamps right now, but we're still pushing for some LED fixtures.



I did that with my old high school's big stage. It was amazingly expensive but VERY worthwhile. It dramatically improved both the amount and quality of light.


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## Sylak (Dec 13, 2007)

Well, the idea first came about when the middle school vocal director wanted to know what he should get for his aud, and since our TD had a class right then and i didn't, i got msrp prices for two smartbars and a few S4 Zooms, and made sure our TD knew that the first thing should be to make sure all their strips have lamps, and if not start replacing them with Halogeena or CFL to get brighter light, and im like "wth, why not get that done here." having a house lit in all but two places with either a CF or Halogeena lamp, i already know the improvements that SHOULD happen by switching


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## Les (Dec 13, 2007)

What is a Halogeena lamp? Do mean a halogen lamp like a Par 38?


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## David Ashton (Dec 14, 2007)

I would strongly recommend that before blowing a heap of money on technology that will be out of date in a couple of years that you at least have a full demonstration in your venue of the proposed rig.I predict you will be disappointed as the sales pitches haven't mirrored the results I have yet seen.The "savings" calculated over 100000 hour life are meaningless they are electronic devices which will corrode and age and lose efficiency and if the experts are to be believed will increase in quality of light and become very cheap, just like computers have over the last 20 years.
I do use them for indirect wash lights and they are great but for illuminating people---yuk


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## Sean (Dec 14, 2007)

Sylak said:


> Well, the idea first came about when the middle school vocal director wanted to know what he should get for his aud, and since our TD had a class right then and i didn't, i got msrp prices for two smartbars and a few S4 Zooms, and made sure our TD knew that the first thing should be to make sure all their strips have lamps, and if not start replacing them with Halogeena or CFL to get brighter light, and im like "wth, why not get that done here." having a house lit in all but two places with either a CF or Halogeena lamp, i already know the improvements that SHOULD happen by switching


With all the talk of CFL's, you need to ask:
ARE THEY DIMMABLE?

If they're not, they really are not a suitable replacement for the lamps on dimmed circuits.

--Sean


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## Les (Dec 14, 2007)

The only dimmable CFL's I have seen are the ones for table lamps and they only compare to a 100w light bulb.


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## avkid (Dec 14, 2007)

Lester said:


> The only dimmable CFL's I have seen are the ones for table lamps and they only compare to a 100w light bulb.


They're quite expensive, and still a bit sketchy.


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## gafftaper (Dec 15, 2007)

I believe Halogena is a product line name from Phillips. It's a small quartz halogen PAR. MANY high schools out there just have standard household 100 watt bulbs in their strips. Switching to some little Halgenas (I think I put in PAR 20's at about 60 watts at my old school). Will dramatically boost both the quantity of light and the color temperature. 

As for if CFL's are dimmable... Everything is dimmable with the right dimmer. My new theater is coming with dimmable CFL house lights. It's a little weird but the light's pretty good actually. It would be a VERY expensive upgrade unless you are already planning on a new dimmer install.


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## Van (Dec 15, 2007)

I, at present, hate dimmable CFL's, and not to be a naysayer, Gaff, but no, they are not all dimmable. it's the ballast in the fixture which needs to be dimmable mostly. The lamp must be dimmable ballast compatible as well. We have a new lobby with dimmable CFLs as the main light source from the overhead fixtures. They dim but still cut out at the bottom end. and like all CFL's they take a while to "Heat Up" and provide a decent color. I actually had to go by a roll of 3/4 CTO and line the inside of all the shades < they're translucent white glass> to get a nice feel from them. before they were just too..... Icky.


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## gafftapegreenia (Dec 15, 2007)

Halogena is seems refers to Philips entire line of consumer halogen lamps, this being PAR's, standard lamps, decorative lamps, MR16's, T-lamps, all that good stuff. That said, I don't think it would be the best choice to put PAR20's in a reflector-and-roundel striplight. Rather, might something along the lines of this style of halogen lamp be more effective in a reflector-and-roundel striplight?

http://www.servicelighting.com/catalog_product.cfm?prod=AL36822

At 3,000K, wouldn't these be a better alternative to the standard A-lamp? Now, I know you would have to compare and contrast lamp life, lumens and temperature for best results, but it seems like a lamp like this could be an effective alternative.


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## Les (Dec 15, 2007)

I work at Lowe's and we have some 200 and 300w utility light bulbs that are type A and I have always thought of those being good reflector-and-roundel strip lamps. Maybe not so much on the 300w, they're almost the size of a mercury vapor lamp. But the 200w are small enough and available in clear or frosted. I would use par lamps for the reflector-less strips. I don't know the model number but I know Altman makes one that can double as a footlight. The roundels go in a gel frame because there is no reflector to hold it in.


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## gafftaper (Dec 15, 2007)

gafftapegreenia said:


> Halogena is seems refers to Philips entire line of consumer halogen lamps, this being PAR's, standard lamps, decorative lamps, MR16's, T-lamps, all that good stuff. That said, I don't think it would be the best choice to put PAR20's in a reflector-and-roundel striplight. Rather, might something along the lines of this style of halogen lamp be more effective in a reflector-and-roundel striplight?
> http://www.servicelighting.com/catalog_product.cfm?prod=AL36822
> At 3,000K, wouldn't these be a better alternative to the standard A-lamp? Now, I know you would have to compare and contrast lamp life, lumens and temperature for best results, but it seems like a lamp like this could be an effective alternative.



I don't know about his situation but my old strips had no reflectors or roundels. They were simply a "silverish" coated box, designed for use with just a household lamp, as they were very small. The PAR 20's were the largest lamp with a reflector that I could barely squeeze into there. The large halogen you linked to is a good option if you had a reflector but since I didn't, I opted for the lower output of the PAR 20, but I finally had a reflector pointing the light out of that stupid little box. I was able to special order them in the right level of spot/flood that fit my space's throw perfectly. It cut the power consumed in half while boosting the light quantity and quality of light. 

Van... I still haven't seen my CFL's dim. They are still being installed. I've just seen them turned on at the breaker. They sure light the room up but it is an interesting color temp. Jury's still out on the dimable CFL house lights... give me a month or so.


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## gafftapegreenia (Dec 15, 2007)

Gafftaper, well then the PAR20's make perfect sense. So it's like a strip light made of mini - olivettes? Must have be one step above the "open trough" style.


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## gafftaper (Dec 16, 2007)

Yeah the one I had was just a series of "semi-shiny" metal chambers no reflector, no lens, about 3"x3", just barely big enough to reach in and screw in a household light bulb. There was a slot for gel frames! REALLY Cheap crap. The ones I had didn't have any visible brand marking even... Had to be purchased when the school was built in the early-60's. About 6' long with four circuits to the strip. 

There were actually a bunch of gel frames missing and it was such an odd size my local dealer couldn't find anything that matched. So I had to buy some of those cardboard gel frames and cut them down to fit in a big paper cutter. 

I'm sure there's someone on the board who know what they were. If the original thread is about a similar "lighting instrument" the little baby PARS are a huge boost.


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