# DMX Console that Works in Banks?



## Stevens R. Miller (May 5, 2016)

I've spent a few days trying to find this, and am thinking maybe there's a reason why I'm looking for the wrong thing.

Our Innnovator 24/48 has 48 faders, each of which (as far as I can tell) is permanently assigned to a channel matching its position. That is, fader #1 sends DMX commands on channel #1 (or it may be channel #0). Fader #2 sends commands on DMX channel #2, and so on. The Innovator itself can send a command on any DMX channel, but you have to use the keypad to do it, like this:

107 [AT] [FULL]

That will send value 255 on DMX channel 107.

I can live with only a few faders, but not with having to use the keypad. For our set up, 48 channels happens to be all we need (we only have 48 DMX dimmers). But, for another theater (or if we get more dimmers), I'd like a way to have my faders work in "banks." For example, it would be great if the Innovator had a button labeled, say, "Start At." I'd want to be able to enter this:

[START AT] 49 [ENTER]

After which, I'd want fader #1 to send DMX commands on channel #49, fader #2 to send DMX commands on channel #50, and so on. I've spent some hours looking for a lighting console that works this way, or along similar lines, and can't find one. When that happens to me, I usually end up finding out that what I wanted would not have been as useful as I thought, ergo no one makes what I was looking for.

Is that what's going on here? Or, are there consoles out there that can assign their faders to selectable channels, either in banks (as I've described above) or individually?


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## Rob (May 5, 2016)

Stevens R. Miller said:


> I'd want fader #1 to send DMX commands on channel #49, fader #2 to send DMX commands on channel #50,


Cognito does - in bank divisible by 20. It's loosely described here.


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## BillConnerFASTC (May 5, 2016)

I think you can patch any controller to any dmx address or addresses you want. The default is 1:1, hence what you have. Find the patch command. I've seen the console - when it was introduced decades ago iirc.


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## josh88 (May 5, 2016)

^What Bill said. Not all the lower end boards allow for patches, and I've never used yours, but most allow you to patch whatever you want to whatever you want. 1 could control 1, 9, 19 or all of the above if you wanted it that way. You'd still have to patch it manually for each one unless there's a trick I don't know.


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## BillConnerFASTC (May 5, 2016)

I looked up in online manual and it's pretty flexible on that console but you may be looking for something else. Consider you could patch you blue backlights alk to one channel - each at its own relative level even - do you need more than 48? Everyone is different but I'm pretty sure you don't really want 512 faders.


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## derekleffew (May 5, 2016)

Stevens R. Miller said:


> After which, I'd want fader #1 to send DMX commands on channel #49, fader #2 to send DMX commands on channel #50, and so on. I've spent some hours looking for a lighting console that works this way, or along similar lines, and can't find one. When that happens to me, I usually end up finding out that what I wanted would not have been as useful as I thought, ergo no one makes what I was looking for.
> 
> Is that what's going on here? Or, are there consoles out there that can assign their faders to selectable channels, either in banks (as I've described above) or individually?


You want the term page s, not banks. Many/most consoles multiply their use of the limited number of handles by using pages of handles. Some has as few as two pages, others have ten, the top ones have an unlimited number of pages.
While when used as channel faders the handles are normally one to one, most can also be used as submaster s, in which case any channel or combination can be assigned. Some also allow the handle to to used as a cuelist master, with a separate cue list on each handle.

Note that the concept of one handle per channel is rather archaic and is disappearing. The concept of control channel #1 always controlling DMX output#1 was obsolete immediately after multiplex protocol was introduced (except in TV studios). See also https://www.controlbooth.com/threads/1-1-patch-do-you-use-it.10703/ and https://www.controlbooth.com/wiki/?title=Patch-Types-of-Lighting .


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## RickR (May 5, 2016)

I had my hands on one of those a year or two ago. (Very much like an ETC Express 24/48) Patching is completely flexible, capable of 384 channels. For this type of board you need to get very familiar with patching if you plan on a lot of single channel programming.

I find setting up submasters far easier. Using the keypad to get to all the channels you can break the rig into parts. From there, and with some more keying, you can record all the cues. If you need a few more controls for manual use in a show, then repatching them to be on the faders makes sense. But I've always seemed to find a way to do it with submasters. Groups are another great feature for manual control. With the right group your track ball becomes whatever set of channels you need.

To actually answer your original question: ETC Element has a bank switch and many others have something like you're describing. They use the term 'pages' so that the physical faders can be set to a higher range of channels. 512 faders not needed!


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## RickR (May 5, 2016)

You have 24 submasters that can page 8 times = 192 individual subs. That's quite enough for most school shows.


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## Stevens R. Miller (May 6, 2016)

BillConnerASTC said:


> I think you can patch any controller to any dmx address or addresses you want. The default is 1:1, hence what you have. Find the patch command. I've seen the console - when it was introduced decades ago iirc.



You are correct, Bill. But what you can't do (as far as I know) is change which channel a controller is assigned to. That is, you can patch channel 1 to dimmer 5, but you can't change the fact that fader 1 controls channel 1. This means that, no matter how you've patched things, you can only control 48 channels with the faders. If your theater has more than 48 devices (or devices that, collectively, consume more than 48 channels) you can't control all of them with the faders. You have to use the keypad. Even if you could quickly swap between multiple stored patches (not sure if you can or not), the cues you record would still be storing channels 1-48. At playback time, whichever patch was loaded would be in effect. You still wouldn't be able to record cues from the faders that affected channels above #48.


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## Stevens R. Miller (May 6, 2016)

BillConnerASTC said:


> I looked up in online manual and it's pretty flexible on that console but you may be looking for something else. Consider you could patch you blue backlights alk to one channel - each at its own relative level even - do you need more than 48? Everyone is different but I'm pretty sure you don't really want 512 faders.


Correct again! I don't want 512 physical devices on my board, but I do want my board to give me physical control over 512 channels. Doing it in pages (thanks for the correct term, you guys!) is what I'm after. The Innovator can't do that with its faders. Oddly, it _can_ do it with its submasters. Seems like it would be a trivial add-on from a software point of view for it to be able to do that with its faders.

Just to be clear, though: I'm not looking for a way to do this with the Innovator. It's obsolete and, when you can find one, still costs about $3,000. What I'm interested in is less expensive consoles that, maybe having as few as sixteen, twelve, or even eight, physical faders, will let me page them across the entire range of 512 channels, storing their settings into cues that I can play back at show time.


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## Stevens R. Miller (May 6, 2016)

RickR said:


> To actually answer your original question: ETC Element has a bank switch and many others have something like you're describing. They use the term 'pages' so that the physical faders can be set to a higher range of channels. 512 faders not needed!



_That's_ what I'm after. Any others I should look at in addition to the Element and the Cognito? I'm willing to sacrifice quite a bit of other features if I can page across the whole set of 512, and store cues for playback at show time. After that, lower cost is always better.


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## Stevens R. Miller (May 6, 2016)

RickR said:


> You have 24 submasters that can page 8 times = 192 individual subs. That's quite enough for most school shows.


Oh, agreed. The Innovator is actually proving itself to be quite the capable instrument. Judicious use of submasters, groups, effects, and cues has made it more than adequate. My question here really isn't about the Innovator. It's about cheaper alternatives to the Innovator and how best to find the ones that do paging.

It's all so complicated: it seems many consoles are aimed at DJs, with the design paradigm being that a "page" is dedicated to a single device (with channels devoted to articulation, color filter, slew rate, and so on, as well as intensity), and with chases for animated effects. Are chases used much in theatrical productions? I think I could use a lot of these "DJ" boards, and just ignore the fact that some people use the faders for anything other than intensity. Instead of one device per page, I would just have sixteen, one per fader. It's just that, whenever I find myself getting into something new and quickly departing from what appears to be expected behavior, I have to ask myself (and others) if maybe I'm headed in the wrong direction.


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## Stevens R. Miller (May 6, 2016)

At the risk of running off at the mouth (or the keyboard), the Chauvet Obey 70 Universal DMX-512 Controller is an example of why I am confused. The description says, "Control Up to 12 DMX Light Fixtures." Well, I have lot more than 12. But it also says, "16 DMX Channels per Fixture." Well, 12 times 16 is 192. That's enough for me, if I can just use each of those channels to control a different dimmer. What's got me feeling unsure of myself is that the marketing material doesn't say anywhere that you can do that. The entire description seems aimed at "light show" style productions, not stage plays. Yet, as I read it, the device would be fine for my needs, could control at least 192 dimmers in 12 pages of 16 each, and is very low cost. Thus, I feel I must be missing something.

Am I?


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## RickR (May 6, 2016)

Lots going on here, and part of this is why some folks prefer certain boards and others can't stand them...

DJ boards are inherently limited and lousy for theatrical style programming. Partly the cost limitations and partly the programming goals. Think a wedding DJ with a few effect lights on towers for a dance floor. 12x16 is the max but it's really just 12 intensity controls no matter how many addresses they use for other stuff. (Some use far more, there's one that reaches ~150.) So 12 dimmers is still the limit!  And chases are used for lots of small effects in plays, but they are at the heart of DJ lighting.

You are much better off with your Innovator! It's also the cheapest one you'll find because you already have it. I imagine you'll want to upgrade when (not if) you get more than a couple LED or moving lights. They require so many more addresses that the whole fader per address concept get in the way. The Innovator tries to do some of this, but it's really just labeling the faders for you. The track ball is the universal fader to stand in for whatever you need. That and subs should do most of what you want, but some re-patching is always an option.

FYI: the Element only pages to 120 channels. But there each channel is a whole fixture. Would you ever have that many individual lights? Ion and Cognito page more freely and should be on any list to replace your board. The new ColorSource console is too new for much of an opinion, but it's designed for newbies and is the least expensive of all these. It's also limited to 80 channels, but that's still quite a few. Then there are 'PC with DMX' options. They can be less expensive but have a whole host of other issues, depending on which of the dozens out there we're talking about. There are many discussions here on choosing a console and a few WIKI entries to help you sort the terminology.


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## BillConnerFASTC (May 6, 2016)

You're confusing a dmx attribute of a moving light or led fixture that uses a lot of dmx addresses as being unique dmx addresses, all handled the same - but they are not. An a moving light or LED fixture is one "channel" on modern consoles, but many attributes. Some might even use two DMX channels to get greater resolution. Maybe you could get one channel to control 16 dimmers if you worked real hard, but it would be unlikle you could ever assign each dimmer to a handle.

I don't like that what you quoted says "DMX Channels" - attributes of addresses would be better.


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## BillConnerFASTC (May 6, 2016)

I'll let other board ops - I'm not one - weigh in but I think your quest to be able to control each dimmer with a handle is not popular or common. Most main stream consoles seem to rely on addressing dimmers with keypad - as in "1 through 4 to full" or "blue cycs on submaster 10". When we moved from limited number of dimmers and patch panels to dimmer per circuit, the idea of each dimmer being on a handle (slider) faded away. Or, you may not find what you want and if you did, you might discover you didn't really want that after all.

You might have liked Strands Mantrix though - early 80's at beginning of the dpc change - maybe with up to 96 handles - and iirc it paged - maybe 4 pages? Groundbreaking console for the time.


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## RickR (May 6, 2016)

Channel is my nominee for the most over used term in the business.
DMX channel, fixture channel, audio channel, steel channel, slot in anything channel, radio channel...
All correct, all confusing!


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## Stevens R. Miller (May 6, 2016)

RickR said:


> Think a wedding DJ with a few effect lights on towers for a dance floor. 12x16 is the max but it's really just 12 intensity controls no matter how many addresses they use for other stuff. (Some use far more, there's one that reaches ~150.) So 12 dimmers is still the limit!



Can we pursue that a bit? I downloaded an open-source driver for Enttec's Open USB USB-to-DMX adapter. It allows client software (that is, a program one might write one's self) to simply drop a value from 0 to 255 into one of 512 consecutive locations in memory. The driver repeatedly ships the contents of these locations out of the adapter, to whatever DMX devices are down the line. As I (think I) understand the protocol, any DMX device can read, and respond to, any of those 512 values. Thus, the first value is the value being sent on DMX channel 1, the second value is the value being sent on DMX channel 2, and so on. A simple dimmer can be assigned to react to one of those values. So, if my dimmer is assigned to DMX channel 10, whatever value I put in the tenth location will be read by that dimmer and it will react accordingly.

What I've read on more complex instruments is that they use more than one channel. So, if I have a light that turns and tilts, its intensity might be set by the value sent on DMX channel 1, its azimuthal rotational angle might be set by the value sent on DMX channel 2, and its elevational angle might be set by the value sent on DMX channel 3. As Bill points out, these two angles might even use up two channels each, to get 65536 distinct possible settings, instead of only 256. Other settings can use even more DMX channels: color, slew rate, gobo rotational speed, and so on. The user's guides for a few lights tell me that, typically, you assign a _starting_ channel to the instrument, and the rest of the settings use up subsequent channel numbers after that one, for however many the instrument needs to let you set all of its parameters (some let you choose to consume different amounts of channels, by letting you set the instrument to be more or less controllable: for example, if you only need angles, slew rates, and intensity, you might use up a total of seven channels, but if you want all of that, color, focus, and gobos, you might use ten channels).

For a simple theatrical set up, where (as I do) one has nothing but fixed lights, with only the intensity parameter to set, 512 channels are plenty. But, if an instrument uses, say, 16 channels (as I have already seen that many do), that 512 will only control 512 / 16 = 32 instruments.

However... from a DMX-compatible device's point of view, I am theorizing that it doesn't matter what the label on the control console says when a value is delivered from that console to that device on the channel the device is set to monitor. That is, I am thinking that if I have a 16-fader DJ console, intended to control 12 complex instruments that consume 16 DMX channels each, a dimmer set to monitor, say, DMX channel 37 will react as I want it to when I am on Page 3, such that those 16 faders are emitting values on DMX channels 33 through 48, and I manipulate the fifth fader from the left (assuming they are numbered from left to right).

At the communications level, the DMX protocol seems pretty simple (elegant, but simple). There is a "start" byte, then zero to 512 data bytes (you don't have to send them all, but you do have to send something on every channel up to and including the highest number you actually want to use, as the devices all get the entire transmission, and count the data bytes to know which one goes with what channel). Every data byte starts with a "high" bit, and is followed by two "low" bits. When the last byte is sent, the signal goes "low" continuously. The devices all detect when no start (that is, "high") bit has been received for the duration of a full data byte, thereby knowing that the _next_ high bit they receive marks the start of an entirely new DMX "frame" of data.

If I'm understanding all that correctly (and, please, someone help me if I'm not), then it seems to me that even a DJ board, marketed to someone who naturally thinks of one page of faders being associated with one instrument that has a lot of parameters, could nonetheless be used to control a lot of dimmers, so long as those dimmers were all assigned to different DMX channels.

Whether this is a good idea or not, is, of course, a completely different question (and one you guys are doing a good job of helping me feel I can predict the answer to already ).

Am I getting my DMX basics right, or do I need to go back to the books?


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## Stevens R. Miller (May 6, 2016)

BillConnerASTC said:


> Most main stream consoles seem to rely on addressing dimmers with keypad - as in "1 through 4 to full" or "blue cycs on submaster 10". When we moved from limited number of dimmers and patch panels to dimmer per circuit, the idea of each dimmer being on a handle (slider) faded away.



So, these days, it really is mostly done on the keypad, eh? That's very helpful to know, as I survey these things.

When a director is calling for changes to a cue, do modern consoles tend to have a wheel or up/down buttons that can be used in place of a set of faders? I can see punching in something like:

52 [AT] 50

when she says, "Give me the apron lights at one-half," but when she follows that with, "Now up a bit, no, too much, down slightly," and so on, I would think this:

52 [AT] 65
52 [AT] 62
52 [AT] 63

would get to be kind of a workout. But, if a console simply remembered that the last channel I had selected was 52, and I could merely press and/or hold a [BRIGHTER] and/or [DARKER] button when she gave direction, that would be fine by me.


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## derekleffew (May 6, 2016)

Stevens R. Miller said:


> ... do modern consoles tend to have a wheel or up/down buttons that can be used in place of a set of faders?...


The wheel still reigns, but most consoles also have "+10%" and "-10%" (sometimes +5%, -5%, sometimes user-defined %) keys. 

The problem with channel faders (or submasters for that matter): they may be great for building cues (and most would argue that keypad or magic sheet is faster for channel/group selection) but faders are no help when it comes to editing a cue.


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## BillConnerFASTC (May 6, 2016)

The discussion of the DMX protocol caused me to consider the previous 0-10 protocols, all requiring a wire per dinner. The image of dozens of LED and movers on 0-10 is amusing, Brasilia like. All those wires.

Steven - on a more serious note - don't overlook multiple fixtures sharing the same address. One channel might control a dozen units.


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## Stevens R. Miller (May 6, 2016)

derekleffew said:


> ...faders are no help when it comes to editing a cue.


I feel like I should know the answer to this, but... why not?


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## BillConnerFASTC (May 6, 2016)

Stevens R. Miller said:


> I feel like I should know the answer to this, but... why not?


How does the normal fader know the recorded level? A wheel, yes, but not a fader. With rare exception, faders don't move to the level of a preset in memory.


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## Stevens R. Miller (May 6, 2016)

BillConnerASTC said:


> Steven(s) - on a more serious note - don't overlook multiple fixtures sharing the same address. One channel might control a dozen units.



Ah, very good point! One of the benefits of DMX-512's simplicity is that it is a unidirectional protocol. In a sense, a DMX controller is kind of like a set of 512 broadcast transmitters. Any number of receiving stations can be tuned to the same channel. My son's school still has all incandescents, with some rather impressive dimmer hardware, and a lot of high-current electrical cable running everywhere in conduit. But, I see from the vendors' sites that LEDs are popular and take such small amounts of power that they can dim themselves. One could easily (I suppose) put several instruments on the same channel, and, _voilà,_ they would behave as if they were ganged on the same dimmer (or dimmers on the same channel).

Modern tech really has changed all of this from my brief encounter with it in the late '70s. It's kind of breath-taking, what can be done with far less money than once it took. Instead of incandescents rated in hundreds of watts (and the current and cable that implies), I had quite a revelation when I started looking at LEDs. For example, I saw that 60 watts is a common power level. Of course, 60 watts is pitiful in an incandescent, so I was wondering how much light 60 watts is from an LED. Then I remembered we had bought an LED work light recently. That thing is _blinding_. It also never even gets warm to the touch, which is a testament to its efficiency. I went down to the shop to see what its wattage is. You can imagine my shock when I saw "35 watts" written on the back. A 60 watt LED must be amazing, yet you can plug it into an ordinary AC socket.

As a life-long computer nerd and electronics hobbyist, blinking lights are an undying passion of mine. But modern theater... it's a computer nerd's dream come true!


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## Stevens R. Miller (May 6, 2016)

BillConnerASTC said:


> How does the normal fader know the recorded level? A wheel, yes, but not a fader. With rare exception, faders don't move to the level of a preset in memory.



Ah, of course. The Innovator actually has a half-solution to that: when you play a cue, the faders do not, as you point out, move to the levels of their corresponding channels. However, if you move a fader and move it to a level _at or above_ that cue's setting for that fader's channel, the fader "captures" (as Leviton puts it) the channel, and you can set it manually. When you get the level you like, you just record the cue over itself. The result, in our case, was that we recorded all our cues, then set the faders all to zero. Then, we walked through the play and played the cues back in order. Whenever the director wanted to change an instrument, we just ramped up the matching fader until the light got slightly brighter (meaning the fader had captured its channel), wiggled it up and down until the director was happy, and recorded the cue over itself. Took our director a while to get used to it, because, as often as not, her changes called for us to _lower_ a light, rather than _raise_ it, and (because every change briefly starts with the light getting brighter as its channel is captured) she thought we were changing it _the wrong way_ about half the time. She got used to it, eventually (or, simply accepted that her tech director was a dunderhead, something I've been used to for a long time in another context; either way, we got by).


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## soundlight (May 6, 2016)

On the Innovator, it looks that (according to the manual), the trackball can operate as a level wheel. So to complete your operation, you would enter [52] [AT] [50] and then [52] [ENTER] when told to make brighter or darker. Then you can scroll up or down with the trackball to change intensity.

In professional theater, the only reason anyone uses faders is to have house lights/haze/work lights on handles. All of the programming is done via the keypad, level wheel, encoders, and touchscreens.

Re: LEDs: Common power levels for LEDs in theatrical lighting are generally 100-300 watts. For instance, the Martin Rush Par 2 RGBW Zoom, a unit that I used for a few school productions this spring, is 120 watts of Red/Green/Blue/White LED array. So depending on the power balance (I don't know if it's evenly distributed between the colors), you're looking at about 30 watts of a single color being useful in a theatrical situation. Now, that is for smaller school stages, which yours is I believe.

For level control for a theatrical show, I usually work with the ETC EOS/ION platform (a few shows on various consoles in the line being GIO, ION, and Element so far this year), and I set up a magic sheet so that I can live on the touchscreen for level control except for fine adjustments: I have a virtual magic sheet with all of my channels and groups instantly accessible, or at the most one or two view changes away. I also have macros for @0, @25, @50, @75, @100, @-10, @+10, and if I'm getting particular I add @-5 and @+5 macros on the magic sheet as well. This way I can grab selections and set their levels right on the touchscreen.


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## BillConnerFASTC (May 6, 2016)

Stevens R. Miller said:


> . It's kind of breath-taking, what can be done with far less money than once it took.



Well, I'd say right now the equipment and installation - all related costs - in a new build are close between an all quartz and an all LED system, or perhaps LED is still a little higher. Many issues, many variables, lots of preferences too. 

Retrofit, LED much more expensive.


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## AudJ (May 6, 2016)

BillConnerASTC said:


> I'll let other board ops - I'm not one - weigh in but I think your quest to be able to control each dimmer with a handle is not popular or common. Most main stream consoles seem to rely on addressing dimmers with keypad - as in "1 through 4 to full" or "blue cycs on submaster 10". When we moved from limited number of dimmers and patch panels to dimmer per circuit, the idea of each dimmer being on a handle (slider) faded away. Or, you may not find what you want and if you did, you might discover you didn't really want that after all.
> 
> You might have liked Strands Mantrix though - early 80's at beginning of the dpc change - maybe with up to 96 handles - and iirc it paged - maybe 4 pages? Groundbreaking console for the time.


Strand preset palate II still offers 96 faders plus 32 subs. I got stuck with one via bid process, and much as I like the other functionality of the board, I sometimes wish I could take a sledgehammer and smash those 96 channel faders right off the board. I've never used them. When someone else does, and doesn't pull every one of them all the way down, it makes programming a bear. The physical footprint of the board is immense.


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## sandsmarc (May 7, 2016)

Stevens R. Miller said:


> At the risk of running off at the mouth (or the keyboard), the Chauvet Obey 70 Universal DMX-512 Controller is an example of why I am confused. The description says, "Control Up to 12 DMX Light Fixtures." Well, I have lot more than 12. But it also says, "16 DMX Channels per Fixture." Well, 12 times 16 is 192. That's enough for me, if I can just use each of those channels to control a different dimmer. What's got me feeling unsure of myself is that the marketing material doesn't say anywhere that you can do that. The entire description seems aimed at "light show" style productions, not stage plays. Yet, as I read it, the device would be fine for my needs, could control at least 192 dimmers in 12 pages of 16 each, and is very low cost. Thus, I feel I must be missing something.
> 
> Am I?



I just read through this briefly and have to hit the hay, but check out the Blizzard ProKontrol MH. It sounds like it may do what you want. Once you patch a fixture in, it's control always starts at fader 1 and you don't have to worry about the physical DMX addresses. It has 2 banks of 16 buttons, hence 32 fixtures or fixture classes. And 16 faders per fixture. And it can assign all 512 channels of a universe. Cheap also at $198 where I bought it. You could buy 2 of them and have 2 universes and control as many fixtures as you'd ever need. Also has pan and tilt wheels for the movers. And a USB port to save all your fixture assignments.


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## RickR (May 7, 2016)

@Stevens R. Miller You have the protocol information correct, but it' has little to do with the operation of a console. The fader label is irrelevant to the light. @sandsmarc makes much the same case for the DJ boards and for a page or two he's right. Of course using the pan and tilt faders for dimmers means all those chase effects are useless. And when you do get some movers it start to get silly. Not than many folks don't learn to live with what others call silly. 

On the other hand one of the key complaints of the SmartFade 24/96 is that users get really confused with 4 pages of faders, and 20 pages of subs. And as @AudJ points out around 100 physical faders things just get worse. The Element users I know mostly have smaller rigs and avoid paging as much as possible. To test it out, I suggest you program your subs with single channels and try to set a few cues. I think you'll see why the wheel/ball universal fader has become the most popular technique.

You've obviously but some serious effort into understand all this stuff. I feel a bit as if we are discussing the evolution of the light board. Each method was suitable for the technology of it's time, but was dropped fast for a better idea. I look forward to holographic schematic displays and hand movement controls. Maybe voice control will come first. After all we have the command structure: "Siri, take the apron areas green down 5 and blue up 10"


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## Stevens R. Miller (May 7, 2016)

RickR said:


> @Stevens R. Miller You have the protocol information correct, but it' has little to do with the operation of a console.



Yeah, that's becoming fairly apparent. The protocol couldn't care less how the console is organized, but the comments here are doing a lot help me realize that the console's organization makes a big difference to how (or, even if) one can achieve a desired result.


> I think you'll see why the wheel/ball universal fader has become the most popular technique.



Yeah, I'm convinced. The trackball on my Innovator refuses to select anything, so I kind of gave up on it. Using it as an up/down "wheel" might still work, though. Next time I get my hands on it, I'll try that.

In fact, it makes me wonder why there isn't something vaguely similar to this DMX controller from Leviton, but with a wheel instead of any faders. In fact, that Model 1000 looks very close to what I was after, except that, according to its spec sheet, it only stores _forty_ scenes. A "scene" is a "cue," am I right? What good is a gizmo that can only store 40 of them? For "Aladdin Jr," we had almost a hundred of them.


> You've obviously but some serious effort into understand all this stuff. I feel a bit as if we are discussing the evolution of the light board.



There's probably a lot of truth to that. I only ever did theater tech once before, in the late '70s. Today, I'm eager to catch up on forty years of improvements, but my first chance to get any hands-on experience is on a board that's about fifteen years old, so even the "modern" hardware I'm using to learn is out-of-date.

But, taking into account what you folks are teaching me (and there's no substitute for the wisdom gained by experience, no matter how many protocol specs a person reads), maybe I should change my question from asking for a console with banks/pages, to being about a console that can let me do basic cues as cheaply as possible, with maybe one wheel on it and a keypad. As I survey the inventories of the various manufacturers, the products that can store a large number of cues with fade-in/fade-out times, and that can control any and all channels in a DMX universe, all seem to have outrageous price tags (especially when one considers that a computer and a USB-to-DMX adapter can, implicitly, do what I'm after). Are there any small, inexpensive controllers, that let me do what I want? Somehow, it keeps feeling like there ought to be one, but that I'm just looking for it in the wrong places, or the wrong way.


> Maybe voice control will come first. After all we have the command structure: "Siri, take the apron areas green down 5 and blue up 10"



Yeah, but when that day comes, the person speaking will be the director, and we'll all be looking for something else to do .


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## icewolf08 (May 8, 2016)

To actually answer your question, there are still a few new generation desks that can do what you want. 

The ETC Element has pageable channel faders. You page them by rotating a knob on the desk. You also get a page that makes the faders submasters. I believe you also get multiple submaster pages, but those are paged digitally.

You can also step up to the ETC Ion. While it doesn't sport built in faders, you can add almost as many faders as your little heart could desire by adding universal fader wings. These faders can function as channels, subs, and playbacks

The Strand Preset Palette was mentioned earlier,me high also has quite a few faders.

From a programming standpoint, faders have become the oddity, not the norm. Most programmers would agree that keying changes is much more efficient. You never have to hunt for channels, change pages, or try to figure out what level you are at. Just key the channel and the level and away you go. Most new consoles still have a level wheel and many even have proportional level adjustment syntax (i.e. Make a channel half of what it currently is).


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## RonHebbard (May 8, 2016)

BillConnerASTC said:


> You might have liked Strands Mantrix though - early 80's at beginning of the dpc change - maybe with up to 96 handles - and iirc it paged - maybe 4 pages? Groundbreaking console for the time.


Ahh . . . Strand's Mantrix then Mantrix II, then Mantrix IIS. I totally concur, truly groundbreaking leaps in performance features for the dollar / bang for the buck and all in consoles you could tote under your harm versus desk sized and larger. The Mantix IIS, more abilities than two 23" (prior to the 19" standard) racks of Strand's IDM Cue or Thorn's British Cue File.
AMX192 out on Switchcraft's ill conceived 4 contact "Tiny" series connectors rather than fat cables in the wire per dimmer low voltage control days.
Thanks for the memories Bill.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.


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## dbaxter (May 8, 2016)

> Can we pursue that a bit? I downloaded an open-source driver for Enttec's Open USB USB-to-DMX adapter.



Yes, you are understanding things. Where you might be getting confused is the understanding that fixture addresses are not exclusive and multiple addresses can be assigned to single control channels/dimmers through soft patching. That is, if I have an LED fixture that uses 10 addresses to control all its functions, I can have more than one fixture set to the same address and control both when I change the value of that address. 
Soft patching can be tricky to get your head around at first, but a lot of that is the terminology. In your case, where you say you have all fixed lights with (I'm assuming) a dimmer per light, you can set your console or software to have channel/slider #1 send its value to any one of a number of dimmer addresses. This is how many of us have a slider for "Area 1" that is lit by lights in dimmers 1, 4,and 26, for example. 

BTW, the Enttec Open, although a good device, will not control a lot of channels without stuttering in my experience. It uses the driving PC for the timing signals for DMX and therefore requires a more powerful computer to control more lights. The Pro has its own internal processor for timing and will give you better results in the long run.

As for adjusting the levels when asked for "up a bit", what I did in my software was use the keyboard arrows for +-1, PgUp, PgDn for +-10, and Home, End for +-100. The mouse wheel will also change the levels up or down. I would figure most consoles have the same ability.


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## Stevens R. Miller (May 8, 2016)

dbaxter said:


> Yes, you are understanding things. Where you might be getting confused is the understanding that fixture addresses are not exclusive and multiple addresses can be assigned to single control channels/dimmers through soft patching. That is, if I have an LED fixture that uses 10 addresses to control all its functions, I can have more than one fixture set to the same address and control both when I change the value of that address.
> Soft patching can be tricky to get your head around at first, but a lot of that is the terminology. In your case, where you say you have all fixed lights with (I'm assuming) a dimmer per light, you can set your console or software to have channel/slider #1 send its value to any one of a number of dimmer addresses. This is how many of us have a slider for "Area 1" that is lit by lights in dimmers 1, 4,and 26, for example.



That's clear. It's very similar to how a number of common paradigms are implemented in software, which is my main professional undertaking. I was more interested in knowing if there are any boards that can page the faders when you do have a need for more channels than your board has faders. At this point, I'm convinced that faders are not the great asset I might have thought they were. Selection by keybad and setting by wheel/trackball seems more facile, particularly when one might want to set more than one channel:

3 [THRU] 8 [AND] 23 [ENTER]

followed by manipulating the trackball has some obvious advantages over trying to shove seven faders (not all of which are near each other) around, synchronously.


> BTW, the Enttec Open, although a good device, will not control a lot of channels without stuttering in my experience. It uses the driving PC for the timing signals for DMX and therefore requires a more powerful computer to control more lights. The Pro has its own internal processor for timing and will give you better results in the long run.



I've read about this, here and there. That shouldn't happen. A lot of "real time" software suffers from Windows's default power-saving settings. When your program is "blocked" (that is, not doing anything because it is waiting on input, or for an output operation to finish), Windows will slow down the CPU, sometimes to a bare fraction of its full speed. Upon becoming "unblocked," (that is, reacting to input, or picking up again after an output operation has finished), it can take up to 40 milliseconds for Windows 10 to decide that full CPU speed is justified. During this interval, very inconsistent behavior can be observed, _provided _that the 40 ms time-frame is long compared to what you are doing. (On modern computers with multi-core CPUs, it is even more inconsistent, as not every core will return to full speed at the same moment.) Now, 40 ms is a very interesting interval in the context of DMX 512, because a full-length DMX 512 frame has 513 bytes in it, with each byte being eleven bits long (one start bit, eight data bits, two stop bits). 513 times 11 is 5,643. DMX 512 is sent at 125,000 bits per second, meaning that a full-length frame takes 5,643 / 125,000 seconds, which is .045144 seconds, or about 45 ms. An inconsistent return to full speed could sometimes be long enough to miss a full-length frame and require waiting for the next full frame.

However... the worst that should ever show as an effect is a delayed change, not a missed or incorrect setting. Not all device drivers work the same way, but I note that Enttec's literature on its Pro model emphasizes an "internal frame buffer," to "preserve data integrity when computer is busy." Well, in the driver I have, a shared block of memory is read continuously by the driver, and sent in a full-length frame, as often as possible. The timing is driven by the speed of the DMX protocol, meaning that a new frame is sent every 45.144 ms (plus a few microseconds, which are meaningless, compared to the 45.144 ms time required to send the frame). The console software shares that block of memory with the driver, writing settings to the 512 locations that--each one individually--control the values being sent on each of the 512 channels. Unless the console software writes an incorrect value there, this scheme can be a frame late, but it can never send a value the console software didn't supply.

Now, if someone tried to get more complicated and send frames only when a channel's value changed, it's possible that the speed-management of the CPU could fool a driver into thinking all changes had been made when they hadn't, and therefore into sending a frame with some zeroes in channels that shouldn't have them. But that would simply be a bug in the driver, imho.

I write real-time video software (at 30fps, a frame is about 33ms for me, so I'm used to working in this regime). Until I discovered the CPU-speed issue, I was tearing my hair out over some inconsistent "stutters" of my own. Simply disabling all of that and running my CPU at full speed made absolutely all of that go away. (There is a vaguely related problem arising from the original IBM PC's inability to time anything to a finer granularity than 1/64th of a second, an interval 15.625 ms long. That can cause some stutter of its own, but modern PCs can (if you ask them to) set a granularity of 1/1000th of a second (1 ms), and almost everything (Google's Chrome browser is a notorious example) asks them to. In an extreme case, a program can just "spin" and never block, allowing timing to a granularity near the microsecond range.

I'll look into this further after I have the device. Writing my own code for it sounds interesting.


> As for adjusting the levels when asked for "up a bit", what I did in my software was use the keyboard arrows for +-1, PgUp, PgDn for +-10, and Home, End for +-100. The mouse wheel will also change the levels up or down. I would figure most consoles have the same ability.



What software are you using? I downloaded DMXControl and, though it's not open source, I can see already why faders aren't the answer to my needs. It allows a variety of setting methods, but being able to click on an icon and just roll the mouse wheel is proof enough that I don't need faders at all.

(For my OCD programming colleagues: Yes, transmission of a full DMX 512 frame takes longer than 45.144 ms, as there must also be the "off" interval that signifies the end of a frame. I don't believe that makes any difference, but I acknowledge that it exists.)


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## Stevens R. Miller (May 8, 2016)

Stevens R. Miller said:


> What software are you using?



Well, _that_ was a dumb question for me to ask, now wasn't it? 

Dave Baxter said:


> Author- Cue Player theater software for sound and lighting


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## dbaxter (May 8, 2016)

No worries. Per the forum rules, I can't jump up and down shouting it. 
Your questions and responses have been great reading.


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## Stevens R. Miller (May 8, 2016)

dbaxter said:


> No worries. Per the forum rules, I can't jump up and down shouting it.
> Your questions and responses have been great reading.



And thank _you_, for your input!

Thinking about it a bit more, I can see how multi-threading issues can cause stutter. A device that uses two DMX channels for a single parameter (tilt angle, for example) would need to make the updates for those channels atomic.

Likewise, if a device needed a context-specific command (for example, a [GOBO ON] command, followed by a [GOBO SPIN] command), time delays that resulted in only the _second_ command being sent, could cause stutter.

All such issues can be handled in software, though.


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## kicknargel (May 9, 2016)

Personally, I don't know that you're going to find a lot better console than the Innovator, without spending the money on something like an Ion. Innovator has its drawbacks (it's the least stable stand-alone console I've experienced), but is quite feature-rich in a conventional lighting environment. If you spend less than thousands, you'll be downgrading, IMO.

For transitioning to keypad entry, a lot has to do with good practices of soft patch and use of groups. And making good magic sheets. It's all about fast recall of the channels you need. I tend to define the 10s digit per system, and the ones digit per area. So my downstage-right front light is channel 11, and the side lights for the same area are 21 and 31, the backlight 41, etc. Then for the next area, the frontlight is 12, sides 22 and 32, etc. Then I make a group for each system, and a group for all lights in each area. So I can quickly set a level for all frontlight, then each other system, then kill a couple areas I don't need, then adjust a few lights individually. Before too long, I have all the numbers memorized.


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## Stevens R. Miller (May 9, 2016)

kicknargel said:


> Personally, I don't know that you're going to find a lot better console than the Innovator, without spending the money on something like an Ion.



Well, again, I'm not trying to replace it. I'm looking for options to have a console of my own. The Innovator belongs to my son's middle school and he will be graduating from there next month. Odds are that I'll never use it again. If there were a practical option for me to buy for myself, I'd be interested. At this point, it looks like a software solution is likely, maybe one I create myself.


> Innovator has its drawbacks (it's the least stable stand-alone console I've experienced)



Could you say more about that? What do mean you say, "least stable?"


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## Dionysus (May 9, 2016)

Stevens R. Miller said:


> Well, again, I'm not trying to replace it. I'm looking for options to have a console of my own. The Innovator belongs to my son's middle school and he will be graduating from there next month. Odds are that I'll never use it again. If there were a practical option for me to buy for myself, I'd be interested. At this point, it looks like a software solution is likely, maybe one I create myself.
> 
> 
> 
> Could you say more about that? What do mean you say, "least stable?"



For a PERSONAL console I think mobility and storage are important. Personally I'd go with NOMAD, very powerful, will do everything and anything you need and can be run on a laptop or computer like the NOMAD PUCK no problem. To add good control surfaces costs extra of course which is the one real drawback.
I figure you to be using more conventionals than anything from the sounds of things, so many of the other cost-effective alternatives I'd steer clear from. There are a lot of options out there however.

"least stable" as in it has a reputation for crashing and misbehavior.


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## Stevens R. Miller (May 9, 2016)

Dionysus said:


> For a PERSONAL console I think mobility and storage are important. Personally I'd go with NOMAD, very powerful, will do everything and anything you need and can be run on a laptop or computer like the NOMAD PUCK no problem.



Hey, thanks! I didn't know about that one.


> To add good control surfaces costs extra of course which is the one real drawback.



Yeah, well, I am pretty handy with a soldering iron and a USB port. Maybe I can cobble up my own wings. We'll see.


> I figure you to be using more conventionals than anything from the sounds of things, so many of the other cost-effective alternatives I'd steer clear from. There are a lot of options out there however.



You figure me right. So far, all I am doing is dimming lights. No motion, colors, strobes, or anything else. One step at a time, and I'm doing community theater. If I can bring some more sophisticated options to the production as time goes by, so much the better. But I'm still a beginner, and that means taking baby steps for now.


> "least stable" as in it has a reputation for crashing and misbehavior.



Ah, yes. I like the Innovator, but, that's a reputation I can already testify to myself.


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## Dionysus (May 10, 2016)

The NOMAD (or PUCK) will give you full versitility to go to a fancy moving-light rig in the future. Essentially NOMAD is the ION, Element & well the entire modern ETC console (essentially) family on ONE platform on your PC. There are many many options for it including Xkeys USB buttons and an ION type wing. Or just use your mouse/touch screen and keyboard. If you want to play with it you can download it from the ETC website (it just won't control/connect).
The learning curve is also very shallow which is partly why I recommend it to you.

The M-PC or M-Touch by martin looks really cool, but I haven't really used it myself (just played with the software and watched someone else use it). It is cheaper, but it really does not seem to be well suited to your situation at all. Its intended for music events more than theatre, but it certainly can do theatre. There would also be a much steeper learning curve for you.

There of course are other PC-augmented solutions from Chamsys and Avolites which are of course worth consideration.

The best part is you wouldn't have a large console to lug around, or have to buy a road case for (to keep it from being destroyed).

I myself plan on getting NOMAD when I can justify the expenditure (most of the time I am in a venue with an Element, occasionally one with a Strand 300).


Yeah I remember the Innovator making me what to hit it more than a few times back in the day when I used one. Good board from the day but it was temperamental.


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## Stevens R. Miller (May 10, 2016)

Dionysus said:


> The NOMAD (or PUCK) will give you full versitility to go to a fancy moving-light rig in the future.



That looks _extremely_ promising! Thanks for the pointer.

What's the difference between the Nomad and the Puck?


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## Dionysus (May 10, 2016)

Stevens R. Miller said:


> That looks _extremely_ promising! Thanks for the pointer.
> 
> What's the difference between the Nomad and the Puck?



NOMAD is the software, which you can install on any computer. Puck is a mini-computer pre-loaded with NOMAD.


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## Stevens R. Miller (May 10, 2016)

Dionysus said:


> Puck is a mini-computer pre-loaded with NOMAD.



Thanks. Heh, it's funny how language changes. I'm dating myself with this admission, but when I see "mini-computer," I think of something like this:




When, of course, you meant something more like this:


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## Stevens R. Miller (May 11, 2016)

Wow. That was interesting. I downloaded Nomad and ran it. It took over all three of my screens, used no standard GUI, had no visible "help" menu, and offered no way to exit. Took me several minutes to figure out how to get it to shut down.

Wow.

I haven't had an experience with a computer program written by a professional entity like that for some years. Very nostalgic.


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## BillConnerFASTC (May 11, 2016)

Stevens R. Miller said:


> Thanks. Heh, it's funny how language changes. I'm dating myself with this admission, but when I see "mini-computer," I think of something like this:



I kind of miss punch cards, JCL, PL-1 or APL, and a 360 somewhere too.......but not too much.


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## Moose Hatrack (May 11, 2016)

If you want to roll your own code, this *4201-B, stellarDMX DMX512-A Controller *is a fun, reliable $325.00 unit. I've used it for 5 shows. You give it RS232, it gives you DMX.


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## Scarrgo (May 11, 2016)

Stevens R. Miller said:


> Wow. That was interesting. I downloaded Nomad and ran it. It took over all three of my screens, used no standard GUI, had no visible "help" menu, and offered no way to exit. Took me several minutes to figure out how to get it to shut down.
> 
> Wow.
> 
> I haven't had an experience with a computer program written by a professional entity like that for some years. Very nostalgic.



The nomad software is exactly what you see if you had the physical console in front of you, you can download cheat sheets that will show you all the button strokes that you need to run it is if you had the console, using your standard keyboard.

As others have said, you can get an x-keys to help with keystrokes, and ETC has videos online to help you get the most out of your console.....

Hope this helps

Sean...


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## RonHebbard (May 11, 2016)

Stevens R. Miller said:


> Thanks. Heh, it's funny how language changes. I'm dating myself with this admission, but when I see "mini-computer," I think of something like this:
> 
> 
> 
> When, of course, you meant something more like this:


Any minute, you're going to show us a picture of an Osborne, right?
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.


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## Stevens R. Miller (May 12, 2016)

RonHebbard said:


> Any minute, you're going to show us a picture of an Osborne, right?


Osborne? Like I need the latest technology to compensate for my poor programming skills. 

First computer I ever actually put my own hands on was one of these:


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## icewolf08 (May 12, 2016)

Stevens R. Miller said:


> Well, again, I'm not trying to replace it. I'm looking for options to have a console of my own. The Innovator belongs to my son's middle school and he will be graduating from there next month. Odds are that I'll never use it again. If there were a practical option for me to buy for myself, I'd be interested. At this point, it looks like a software solution is likely, maybe one I create myself.



If you are looking for something simple that you can use yourself, you might check out ETC Nomad. You can use it as offline for free, and you can buy channel keys in various output counts as needed. This would allow you to use your own PC as a controller and you get full Eos capabilities. Pair it with an x-keys or similar programmable keyboard, and maybe with some OSC encoders, and you have yourself a pretty simple rig for a good price. With a windows machine, you can also attach universal fader wings. ETC also offers the Nomad Puck, which is an NUC designed to just run Nomad.

You could do a similar thing with Martin MPC, which has limited channel output for free.

Unless you think you really can re-invent the wheel better than the people who are already making computer lighting controllers (or you just want the challenge), why do it? There are a lot of software based controllers out there now, it seems like finding something that meets your requirements shouldn't be hard.


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## SteveB (May 12, 2016)

When you launch Nomad you get a 5-4-3-2-1 countdown option to launch to the shell. That's where you tell it how many screens, whether to open as windows on the desktop, etc...

The user interface - "GUI" completely mirrors the actual console to (I assume) make it easier to navigate both, as once you learn the off-line editor, you've learned the console.


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## derekleffew (May 13, 2016)

@Stevens R. Miller , while looking for something else in a pile of CDs containing software I've never or will probably never use, I found Innovator Offline Editor Software v1.0 
[Zip file is too large (10.8Mb ?) for CB to upload, but it's still on Leviton's site]: 
http://www.leviton.com/OA_HTML/ibcG...ojf7vBeA&label=IBE&appName=IBE&minisite=10251

I don't know if Leviton ever produced a later version (doesn't appear so), or if this one is any good, but might be worth a spin if you think it could be of any use.
-----
I was once threatened with a Innovator, but fortuitously (I've lived a good Christian life, or so someone thinks--the project was cancelled.)

lieperjp said:


> derekleffew said:
> 
> 
> > I will be doing a show with VL1000TS units on an Innovator (which I've never used) soon. Any tips and tricks? Will I have to write my own personality or download one? How does Innovator handle a "multi-part" fixture? I really have to start looking at the User Manual.
> ...


I quite liked the Innovator's predecessor--Encore, IIRC.


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## Stevens R. Miller (May 13, 2016)

icewolf08 said:


> If you are looking for something simple that you can use yourself, you might check out ETC Nomad.



Done that. I can see it has a good reputation, so I will look at it again after the show I am doing now wraps (in about a week). My first glimpse was not encouraging, as I found it incomprehensible, but one of our colleagues here told me that it copies the company's hardware, and I can see the advantage to that. Certainly worth a more in-depth review.


> Unless you think you really can re-invent the wheel better than the people who are already making computer lighting controllers (or you just want the challenge), why do it?



I am a computer programmer. We _always_ think we can re-invent the wheel better .

More seriously, I can see some contexts in which features that aren't obviously desirable become important. For example, having worked closely with the cast and crew on a middle-school show, I could see that the Innovator 24/48 was a fine choice for the theater we had, but also that it was actually an impediment to producing the best show that was within the reach of our sixth-, seventh-, and eighth-grade children. Why? Because it was just too complex for them to learn to use _in that context_. (To be specific: no one on school staff knew how it worked, the rehearsals put performance at the top priority--over things like technical issues--and there was no non-rehearsal time available in the theater to learn how the console worked. This means that most shows have been done entirely with the kids shoving the channel faders around, not using any recorded cues. The powerful Innovator is reduced to being nothing more than a set of 48 dimmers, _in that context_. Now that computers can cheaply be made to emit DMX-512 commands, I can see a reason to write a lighting program accessible to middle school students.)


> There are a lot of software based controllers out there now, it seems like finding something that meets your requirements shouldn't be hard.



Agreed. But I do like to tinker and will probably write my own at some point. If it fills a currently empty niche or two, so much the better. I'm still a beginner at all of this, and humility is something all beginners profit by, so I'm taking my time and trying to learn from what's already out there. Just completed our second full rehearsal of "My Fair Lady" with a local community company. We're actually renting a middle school's theater, and it has the same model Innovator 24/48 I used before. But, like the first one, it's crumbling a bit (some bump keys don't work; diskette drive is broken; faders are scratchy), so I took a leap and downloaded DMXControl (using it with an Enttec Open DMX USB). The program is cranky and has a lot of GUI issues (among those being that the "English" version of this German software is not a complete translation: to dim a light to a soft level, for example, one sets its "helligkeit" to about 15%). But, it flawlessly memorized and sent all the of cues I defined. At yesterday's rehearsal, I never even turned the Innovator on. The cast members are mostly experienced performers, but none of them had ever seen a laptop replace a lighting console before. I heard, "that's amazing" more than once. (As a safety net, I would have liked to pass the DMXControl traffic through the Innovator, as it has a DMX-in port, which is supposed to replicate its commands on the Innovator's DMX-B output port. I simply could not get that to work, so I dumped the Innovator entirely and plugged my laptop directly into the DMX-in port on the wall. Smooth sailing after that.)

Alas, DMXControl may be free, but it's not open-source code. Their Web site explains, in somewhat snide terms, that they think open-source code becomes messy and unmaintainable. I guess that means Linux will never go anywhere. (Or, being a programmer myself, maybe it means there is something about their code they don't want anyone else to see.) So, again, I may feel the need to write my own. Certainly _not_ feeling the need to search further, for now, for a dedicated console. The software option, especially if hardware like wings and what-not can be added, is looking very good to me.

We have our first actual performance tonight. Wish me luck, eh?


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## Stevens R. Miller (May 13, 2016)

derekleffew said:


> @Stevens R. Miller , while looking for something else in a pile of CDs containing software I've never or will probably never use, I found Innovator Offline Editor Software v1.0
> [Zip file is too large (10.8Mb ?) for CB to upload, but it's still on Leviton's site]:
> http://www.leviton.com/OA_HTML/ibcG...ojf7vBeA&label=IBE&appName=IBE&minisite=10251



Yes, I found that too, along with a firmware upgrade. Alas, I cannot get their offline editor to run on Windows 10. For that matter, I would have to rummage around in my basement to find a computer with a diskette drive so I could copy the firmware files to diskette, as that is the only way (I know of) to install the upgrade on the Innovator. Kind of a shame, as their (distressingly abstruse) user's guide describes a couple of features that don't exist on the Innovator I used, so I am guessing they come into being after you upgrade the firmware.


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## Stevens R. Miller (May 13, 2016)

SteveB said:


> When you launch Nomad you get a 5-4-3-2-1 countdown option to launch to the shell. That's where you tell it how many screens, whether to open as windows on the desktop, etc...



That would be nice. I don't seem to get that start-up option. I just takes over and that's that.


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## RickR (May 14, 2016)

You don't see this?



Settings takes you to all the fun; output, configuration, RFR, update and display stuff. That little text on the bottom left lets you be either an element or an Ion level console.


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## SteveB (May 14, 2016)

RickR said:


> You don't see this?View attachment 13320
> 
> 
> Settings takes you to all the fun; output, configuration, RFR, update and display stuff. That little text on the bottom left lets you be either an element or an Ion level console.



Thanks Rick, it's the desk that goes 5-4-3-2-1. I've been seeing that in my sleep......


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## Stevens R. Miller (May 15, 2016)

Oh, yeah, I do get that, but no 5-4-3-2-1. Once started, how do you exit the desk program?


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## RickR (May 15, 2016)

Hit "Displays" or F9 to get the "CIA" browser to pop up. If it's on something else just keep hitting that key. Then double click on Exit, then enter to confirm. On an actual desk "Power Off" is right next to "Exit"



Complete lighting software is complex enough that going into it with little knowledge of consoles or of that program is setting yourself up for confusion. One of my favorite lines "When all else fails, read the directions."


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## dbaxter (May 15, 2016)

I don't think software should make you jump through an obscure hoop like that, however.


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## Stevens R. Miller (May 15, 2016)

RickR said:


> Complete lighting software is complex enough that going into it with little knowledge of consoles or of that program is setting yourself up for confusion.



It's not a lot to ask of a program in the year 2016 that it be easy to exit.


> One of my favorite lines "When all else fails, read the directions."



It didn't come with any.


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## sjobergsson (May 16, 2016)

But the opposite annoy me a bit in avolites titan one cause its so easy to shut the software down in the middle of a show but probably a confirmation would be enough 

Skickat från min GT-I9505 via Tapatalk


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## Stevens R. Miller (May 16, 2016)

sjobergsson said:


> But the opposite annoy me a bit in avolites titan one cause its so easy to shut the software down in the middle of a show...


It's not a lot to ask of a program in the year 2016 that it not shut down easily when you don't want it to, either.


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## Scarrgo (May 16, 2016)

There should have been an option where you downloaded the software to also download the manual

As stated above, it is a very complex software to be able to all the things that people ask of it, it can be daunting...

And have you gone and looked at any of the training videos that they offer? they can also be very helpful...

I use it on my laptop, {command+Q}(mac) exits the program.

Not being a software writer, just an end user, why add another layer of interface to contend with, to me, I see it as I am running the console from my laptop and I am armed with the shortcut sheet...

and if you feel that it should have a different/better GUI, ETC has a great user forum, and they listen to what people ask/need of the console software...

While yes I am an ETC/Apple/Coke/Levi/many other silly thigs Fan boy, but I also believe that you should look and find what works best for you, there are many great products out there, and some of those folks are right here on Controlbooth, and would be very happy to answer any question that you have...

Please keep asking questions, we also want to try and be of help

Have a great day...

Sean...


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## Stevens R. Miller (May 16, 2016)

Scarrgo said:


> There should have been an option where you downloaded the software to also download the manual



They offer it as a compressed .zip library. Standard practice is to include the docs in that, along with the code.


> Not being a software writer, just an end user, why add another layer of interface to contend with, to me, I see it as I am running the console from my laptop and I am armed with the shortcut sheet...



Well, as a software writer, my view is that the user can be expected to know the standard interface conventions for the operating system of their machine. That's not an accident. Microsoft, Apple, and other OS vendors have spent years refining the part of their code that is generally called the "window manager" so that the functions common to virtually _all_ applications (shutting down perhaps being the one that truly every application supports, but opening and closing files, cutting and pasting, asking for help, and so on are nearly universal or, at least, can universally be implemented the same way) have no learning curve. The industry decision to adopt such standards has long been heralded as the reason computers became mainstream appliances, instead of remaining laboratory instruments. For almost as long, programs that _can_ makes use of a window manager's conventional implementations of the near-universal functions that program shares with lots of others, but _doesn't_ make use of them, have been reviled and criticized as being either designed in ignorance, arrogance, or both.

If I understand you correctly, their decision makes it very natural for a user with experience on the physical hardware to feel like they are in a familiar context. That makes sense, except that one virtue to ETC of making Nomad freely downloadable is that it will be the entry point for lots of us who _don't_ have access to a physical device, but might learn to like their product so much that we later decide to buy one. Making that kind of person's first encounter with the product become a frustrating exercise in coping with a unique GUI (when that problem was tossed to the curb a very long time ago) is not, imho, in ETC's own best interests.

And here's a funny thing about that: in that "setting" page you mentioned, it _can_ be set to run in a standard window, instead of taking over the whole screen (full-screen mode, in some vernaculars). When you do that, the stock features provided by the window manager appear, and one can exit the program with a single mouse-click (well, a second click confirms that one wishes to exit, but that is also according to standard convention). As a loss-leader marketing tool, I think ETC would be better off if that were the initial configuration of the software, with it maybe suggesting at first start-up that it can be run in full-screen mode for old hands like you who will already know how that interface works.


> Please keep asking questions, we also want to try and be of help



Thanks! This is a great forum and I have received an awful lot of collegial support and encouragement here already. It can be hard to find forums like this, so, when I do find one, I try to give back. Since I'm really, really new to theater tech, I can't help much directly (not yet, anyway), but, as we are talking about software (my main profession), let me offer to help with any Java programming questions people have through another fine forum, coderanch.com, where I am a moderator. Folks there are helpful and collegial too, so feel free to ask us for help if you ever get into Java coding.


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## RickR (May 16, 2016)

I agree completely with 99% of what you say. They should use existing software standards, at least in the basic computer functions. There is a whole other set of issues in File>Open, Save As, Merge that they finally made minor improvements on in the last update. Just following the standards would have prevented an enormous amount of work and confusion.

I suspect much if it is legacy from the earliest Eos days. (2006ish) I'm pretty sure an offline program was envisioned even back then but it might have been they thought only console owners would use the program, so oddities wouldn't matter. I've also seen quite a trend towards avoiding manuals. My kids (college age) were taught to read them, but have the attitude that the program should be self explanatory. Lots of other programs make you get it separately or use an online wiki-manual. Paper is rare!

Let me add that you (and others) help me with your questions. Part of why I'm here and on other forums is to learn how others view issues. I learned a long time ago that people don't all think the same way! So hearing your problems and what concerns you expands my knowledge of how my clients might think. I also sharpen my skills at explaining this stuff on you poor folks that aren't paying for it. So thank you!


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## Stevens R. Miller (May 16, 2016)

RickR said:


> I've also seen quite a trend towards avoiding manuals.



My dad was an engineer and a dedicated home handy-man. I remember being 14 and watching him make something-or-other in his shop one day. Whatever it was, it must have seemed impressive to me, because I asked him, "Dad, how do you know how to do so much?" Lately, I've been repeating what he said to me to my own son, who happens to be 14 now. He said, "most things are easy, if you read the instructions."


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## Dionysus (May 19, 2016)

Stevens R. Miller said:


> My dad was an engineer and a dedicated home handy-man. I remember being 14 and watching him make something-or-other in his shop one day. Whatever it was, it must have seemed impressive to me, because I asked him, "Dad, how do you know how to do so much?" Lately, I've been repeating what he said to me to my own son, who happens to be 14 now. He said, "most things are easy, if you read the instructions."



I would suggest when starting out changing the "console mode" (you see that on the startup and config window before loading) to "element" instead of "eos" as it is a little less complicated and daunting. It is now the same as an element console, less like the ION, but has the same limitations (which will be just fine for you). Fewer "buttons" and controls to look at as well.


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