# Strand MX + Scrollers



## DHSLXOP (Dec 25, 2006)

Hi Everyone...I'm new here but have been reading for a while. 
(I hope I'm using the right terminology here...if I'm not let me know...thanks in advance)
At my theater, we have a Strand MX 24 control board with a 5 pin DMX output controlling about 30 or so dimmers but has about 20 Strand Lekos and Fresnels actually plugged in. All of the lights are plugged in using stage pin plugs. Due to lack of enough light on the stage, we are looking for par cans (or something similar that can still create a wash) with scrollers attached to be able to create a brighter wash of the stage. Also, please note that the FOH electrical is probably less than 10 feet away from our stage (our theater is more of a multipurpose room and another company has taken the originally rounded stage has extended it out to make it more square at the front...this is in order to have more room on stage) *Is it possible to run scrollers with the Strand MX 24? How would I patch in scrollers...and some par cans for the scrollers to go on without destroying the existing structure of the lights (especially since these additional lights will not be a permanent addition to the theater, but only hooked up during specific events)* For now, since there is no real budget for a bigger board, I was considering taking channels 23 and 24 on the light board and making 23 be the par cans and 24 be the scrollers.*What would I need to use to be able to do this though?* 
*Basically, I'm asking, how do I go about putting in additional par cans and scrollers into my Strand MX 24 control board? *
Another option I do have however, if I cannot patch both the par cans and the scrollers into the board is to take down some of the existing lekos and use some of them only for specials and replace the rest of the lights with scrollers and par cans. This may be easier to do, since I could just plug the par cans into the stage pin dimmers already in the theater. 
Please help me with this and thanks in advance. If I'm not making sense, please let me know, and I will try to explain more. 

Lastly--Can someone give me some advice on what type of scrollers and par cans I should get...I'm looking for maybe 6 or 8 pars and scrollers...and have a budget of about $3000
Thanks,  
DHSLXOP


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## SHARYNF (Dec 25, 2006)

Yours is a case where I would look at some of the new LED pars that are getting inexpensive, have color mixing capability, don't need a dimmer and use very little power, for your budget you could get quite a few.
If this is something that makes sense let me know
Sharyn


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## DHSLXOP (Dec 25, 2006)

SHARYNF said:


> Yours is a case where I would look at some of the new LED pars that are getting inexpensive, have color mixing capability, don't need a dimmer and use very little power, for your budget you could get quite a few.
> If this is something that makes sense let me know
> Sharyn



Thank you for your quick post back. Do you happen to know names of any LED pars, where to get them, and how I would go about controlling them?


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## Footer (Dec 26, 2006)

Going with scrollers on that console is rather easy. All you need to get is the scroller itself and the power supply for the scroller. As far as patching them, what you are thinking is fine, as long as you do not want individual control of each scroller, it will be all or nothing. When you address them, address each to the same dimmer and then patch that dimmer into the channel you want to control them. You will need to get some DMX cable and some scroller cable (scroller cable is 4 pin). I would highly suggest going with apollo scrollers, and production advantage is usually running a pretty good deal on them. 

http://www.productionadvantageonline.com/scrollers.htm


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## DHSLXOP (Dec 26, 2006)

Footer4321 said:


> Going with scrollers on that console is rather easy. All you need to get is the scroller itself and the power supply for the scroller. As far as patching them, what you are thinking is fine, as long as you do not want individual control of each scroller, it will be all or nothing. When you address them, address each to the same dimmer and then patch that dimmer into the channel you want to control them. You will need to get some DMX cable and some scroller cable (scroller cable is 4 pin). I would highly suggest going with apollo scrollers, and production advantage is usually running a pretty good deal on them.
> http://www.productionadvantageonline.com/scrollers.htm


Thanks for your post also...just a quick question...would I have to get a DMX splitter of some sort to be able to use both the new dmx line to the scrollers and the existing dmx line to the conventionals? 
Also, if I wanted to get scrollers, does anyone have any brand names and should I go with only par 64s or are par 56s ok for scrollers too?
Thanks for everyone's help. Control Booth is a great site!


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## Footer (Dec 26, 2006)

Pars are great for scrollers, and whatever you have will work just fine. As I said before, I like Apollo scrollers because you get the best bang for your buck, but there are plenty of other great scrollers out there. Find out if your dimmers have a DMX through, if they do not, you will need some type of opto splitter, and they can get rather pricey.


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## SHARYNF (Dec 26, 2006)

DHSLXOP said:


> Thank you for your quick post back. Do you happen to know names of any LED pars, where to get them, and how I would go about controlling them?



I have access to some that I am getting from China, they are 4 channel dmx (three pin) controlled, rgb and over all dim, they are silver do not have any gel frame (which IMO is not really needed). In comparison to the American DJ or the Chauvet they are brighter and have more even color. The same ones have been selling on ebay for 139.00 each auction ( 230037377848 )	

Leds are great for saturated colors and tend to be brightest in comparison to a standard par at these colors, in the lighter colors, pars are brighter, but the cost of scrollers, and the noise and the control and the fact that you still need a dimmer etc, IMO makes the Leds work much better especially for washed from relatively close distances, like you mentioned you were working from. So again IMO what you wind up doing is adding more LCD's to your system since you can get more colors etc, and of course the power consumption is way down. With all leds on they do create a white, which is OK but I would tend to use standard fresnels or pars for white.

Sharyn


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## DHSLXOP (Dec 26, 2006)

Footer4321 said:


> Pars are great for scrollers, and whatever you have will work just fine. As I said before, I like Apollo scrollers because you get the best bang for your buck, but there are plenty of other great scrollers out there. Find out if your dimmers have a DMX through, if they do not, you will need some type of opto splitter, and they can get rather pricey.


Would a splitter like this in addition to some dmx pin converters (do they even make those) be what I would need to split the signal? Or would it be something else?
Also, do you know any brands of par cans that are good?
Lastly, are there any other options out there other than scrollers and LED pars that can fit within my budget?


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## SHARYNF (Dec 26, 2006)

That is a very good highend unit.

a lot depends on how you go, if you go with the pars, you then need to have the dimmer channels, and then you can run a dmx line to your electric and daisy chain your scrollers off, you may want to re setup things so that you hae the dimmer channel and the scroller address next in line.

Personally I don't like scrollers, they tend to be noisy, you have to scroll to the gel you want, and you need to replace gel sets as they wear out, and also in most cases you don't have the gel in the scroller you want to match the rosco you are using etc.

Led's have a few advantages in that you don't use dimmers you can to a certain degree match a color by storing the settings, and you can go to the color directly, and they are SILENT. Then again, for total light output, lcd;s are not anywhere near a conventional. Again really depends on how you want to use them. I would be amazed if you could do a conventional for 4 plus times the lcd cost without factoring in the dimmer channel cost. I would guess that for 6 pars with scrollers power supply, and the pars and the gels you would be working hard to meet your 3k budget and with led's you would probably get 24 led pars. 

Again it really depends on what you want to do


Sharyn 

Sharyn


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## DHSLXOP (Dec 26, 2006)

SHARYNF said:


> That is a very good highend unit.
> a lot depends on how you go, if you go with the pars, you then need to have the dimmer channels, and then you can run a dmx line to your electric and daisy chain your scrollers off, you may want to re setup things so that you hae the dimmer channel and the scroller address next in line.
> Personally I don't like scrollers, they tend to be noisy, you have to scroll to the gel you want, and you need to replace gel sets as they wear out, and also in most cases you don't have the gel in the scroller you want to match the rosco you are using etc.
> Led's have a few advantages in that you don't use dimmers you can to a certain degree match a color by storing the settings, and you can go to the color directly, and they are SILENT. Then again, for total light output, lcd;s are not anywhere near a conventional. Again really depends on how you want to use them. I would be amazed if you could do a conventional for 6 plus times the lcd cost without factoring in the dimmer channel cost.
> Sharyn



On the Led's, would I be getting a small beam or a large enough beam that if I only purchased say 5 or 6, EDIT:INSTEAD OF SAYING 5 OR 6 LETS SAY 10 and I dimmed all of my conventionals, would I get a powerful wash throughout the full stage, or only a wash downstage? (the stage is less than 20 feet deep)


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## SHARYNF (Dec 26, 2006)

from about 10 feet the beam width is about 41 inches. The American dj units have a much wider beam at that distance about 7 feet. It is definitely NOT a spot

Sharyn


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## DHSLXOP (Dec 26, 2006)

SHARYNF said:


> from about 10 feet the beam width is about 41 inches. The American dj units have a much wider beam at that distance about 7 feet. It is definitely NOT a spot
> Sharyn



Oh ok..thats a lot better than what I was thinking. How would I be able to control them, and would I still be able to run with my cues from my conventionals off the strand board?


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## soundlight (Dec 26, 2006)

You would power them from straight line voltage (not through dimmers), and you would send a DMX split to them. You would send the DMX to the first fixture and to each following fixture (each has an in and out port, out from the first to the in of the next, and so on). You would use the switches on the back of the unit to tell it what channel to start pulling DMX data on, and then patch the four channels of LED's into your board. You can set all of the LED cans to the same address, and they will all respond to the same three faders of RGB on your board. You can then program them into cues just like conventionals.


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## DHSLXOP (Dec 26, 2006)

That makes sense...but having to control 3 RGB channels will definitely be difficult on my board since I only have 24 faders on the board. Is there a way that if I were to buy another small board, (so have my Strand MX for the conventionals and another board for the LED's) I could connect them together and have one go button between the two? Or would i have to have seperate go's on each board. Does what I'm asking make sense?


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## soundlight (Dec 26, 2006)

Treat yourself and your school to an ETC Smartfade 2496. You should be able to get one for about $1500. And since your parcan order will be about $1490 with ten cans (including shipping), that'd come out just about right.

EDIT: You can actually download an offline version of the Smartfade from ETC's website and play around with it (after reading the manual a bit). I read the manual for less than 5 minutes, and I can do just about everything now.

ANOTHER EDIT: If you buy the smartfade, you should be able to sell your MX for about $500 on ebay.


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## DHSLXOP (Dec 26, 2006)

soundlight said:


> Treat yourself and your school to an ETC Smartfade 2496. You should be able to get one for about $1500. And since your parcan order will be about $1490 with ten cans (including shipping), that'd come out just about right.
> EDIT: You can actually download an offline version of the Smartfade from ETC's website and play around with it (after reading the manual a bit). I read the manual for less than 5 minutes, and I can do just about everything now.
> ANOTHER EDIT: If you buy the smartfade, you should be able to sell your MX for about $500 on ebay.




Where would I be able to purchase these? Is there a webiste or something?

Thanks for your help


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## soundlight (Dec 26, 2006)

Premier Lighting has the best deal that I can find:
SmartFade from Premier Lighting

Make sure to get the 24/96 model, as that will give you 48 faders, and 199 scenes, if I remember correctly.


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## soundlight (Dec 26, 2006)

And here's the link to the smartfade OLE (Offline Editor). If you download the link that says "Virtual Smartfade v.1.7.0" (or "Virtual Smartfade - Mac" if you have a mac), you should be able to experiment with the console. Make sure to set it to Normal Mode first (rotate the wheel with your mouse until "normal mode" appears, and then hit the "menu" button), and then you can experiment with recording scenes and memories. If you want, I can PM you a simple description of how to program cues so that you can check out the virtual version.

http://etcconnect.com/product.downloads.asp?ID=20192

Also make sure to download the SmartFade manual from the same page (oh, and I really, really hope that you have DSL or Cable internet...that'd be a bugger...)


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## DHSLXOP (Dec 26, 2006)

soundlight said:


> And here's the link to the smartfade OLE (Offline Editor). If you download the link that says "Virtual Smartfade v.1.7.0" (or "Virtual Smartfade - Mac" if you have a mac), you should be able to experiment with the console. Make sure to set it to Normal Mode first (rotate the wheel with your mouse until "normal mode" appears, and then hit the "menu" button), and then you can experiment with recording scenes and memories. If you want, I can PM you a simple description of how to program cues so that you can check out the virtual version.
> http://etcconnect.com/product.downloads.asp?ID=20192
> Also make sure to download the SmartFade manual from the same page (oh, and I really, really hope that you have DSL or Cable internet...that'd be a bugger...)


I tried this and its working well, I think this might be good for our theater. But if I needed to run either Led's or scrollers and par cans (as I've mentioned earlier) would I need a DMX splitter, and if so, do you know any brands or models? 
And also, is there a way to plug a monitor into the SmartFade in order to see the channel levels (like the one that is in the OLE)


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## soundlight (Dec 26, 2006)

That's the only drawback of this console...it has no VGA out. Consoles with VGA start at about $2500. Does your current MX have a VGA out? I know that it was an option, but not standard with the MX series.


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## soundlight (Dec 26, 2006)

BUT: After reading up some more and messing with the OLE, I find that there is always a bargraph indication of the level in the little LCD window. Experiment with just moving faders in the standard "normal mode" window of the LCD. It reads the levels of the channels in bargraph form.


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## DHSLXOP (Dec 26, 2006)

soundlight said:


> That's the only drawback of this console...it has no VGA out. Consoles with VGA start at about $2500. Does your current MX have a VGA out? I know that it was an option, but not standard with the MX series.



No-theres no VGA out on the MX. Could another console option be the Horizon software, or is that not good at all?


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## DHSLXOP (Dec 26, 2006)

soundlight said:


> BUT: After reading up some more and messing with the OLE, I find that there is always a bargraph indication of the level in the little LCD window. Experiment with just moving faders in the standard "normal mode" window of the LCD. It reads the levels of the channels in bargraph form.



Does that bargraph come with the actual board or does it only show on the OLE?


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## soundlight (Dec 26, 2006)

From what I read in the manual, it's how the board works. If you close the "Light Output Display" and use just the OLE without it, you are basically using the console. Same functionality, it's just a million times easier to work with your fingers than your mouse. I'd go ahead and have them demo it for you. If they know that you have the cash to make the purchase, they'll probably send a rep out with the board. They have a link for demo'ing the smartfade on the product page from ETC. Check it out. That way you could actually check out the console in person before buying it.

EDIT: Here's the Demo Link:
http://etcconnect.com/product.requestdemo.asp?ID=20014


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## soundlight (Dec 26, 2006)

OK: Horizon Software: Good stuff, from what I've heard. But I would NEVER take a PC software console over a hardware console for conventional. For movers, I'd take Hog PC. But never for conventional. It's a matter of stability, IMO. You have to think about how often PC's crash or mess up. Consider that.

I really have to thank someone for making me look in to the SmartFade, I really like it after playing with it. It's extraordinarily easy to use, and priced lower than it's NSI and Leprecon counterparts.


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## Footer (Dec 26, 2006)

I would do the horizon with a wing way before going with the smartfade. The smartfade is a jazzed up two scene, and there is really no point to running without a monitor anymore, especially with any type of scroller or any other light with an attribute of any type. PM Van on this board (or he will be around). He has alot of experience with the horizon system. If all you have on the PC is the horizon system, and you don't have it hooked up to the net, it should run for a very long time without any issue. That being said, don't buy a POS computer.


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## DHSLXOP (Dec 26, 2006)

soundlight said:


> OK: Horizon Software: Good stuff, from what I've heard. But I would NEVER take a PC software console over a hardware console for conventional. For movers, I'd take Hog PC. But never for conventional. It's a matter of stability, IMO. You have to think about how often PC's crash or mess up. Consider that.
> I really have to thank someone for making me look in to the SmartFade, I really like it after playing with it. It's extraordinarily easy to use, and priced lower than it's NSI and Leprecon counterparts.




That makes sense, and I think you're right about the crashing thing--i didn't think about that. I think that the SmartFade will probably work best for us right now.

So if I used this, I would need a splitter to use both my existing dmx line to the conventionals and another dmx line to new scrollers or Led's, correct?


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## DHSLXOP (Dec 26, 2006)

Footer4321 said:


> I would do the horizon with a wing way before going with the smartfade. The smartfade is a jazzed up two scene, and there is really no point to running without a monitor anymore, especially with any type of scroller or any other light with an attribute of any type. PM Van on this board (or he will be around). He has alot of experience with the horizon system. If all you have on the PC is the horizon system, and you don't have it hooked up to the net, it should run for a very long time without any issue. That being said, don't buy a POS computer.




We have a PC available, so that wouldn't be an issue. On this site do you know if the basic edition would include everything that I needed to use (both the software and the usb to dmx device) or would it just come with the software?


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## soundlight (Dec 26, 2006)

As said, if you're going to go horizon, don't hook it up to the web, and don't use the computer for anything else. The basic package has the software and interface that you would need, but you would need to get the submaster wing to have any physical fader control.


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## DHSLXOP (Dec 26, 2006)

soundlight said:


> As said, if you're going to go horizon, don't hook it up to the web, and don't use the computer for anything else. The basic package has the software and interface that you would need, but you would need to get the submaster wing to have any physical fader control.




Ok thank you. Now back, kind of, to my original questions: 

1) What would be better--scrollers with par cans or Led Pars?
2) Do I need a splitter and what type if necessary?

Thanks everyone


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## Footer (Dec 26, 2006)

DHSLXOP said:


> Ok thank you. Now back, kind of, to my original questions:
> 1) What would be better--scrollers with par cans or Led Pars?
> 2) Do I need a splitter and what type if necessary?
> Thanks everyone



I prefer the scroller route, but to each his own. I believe the a par64 with a 1k lamp in it is brighter then anything most comparably priced LED's will run. 

You will need an opto splitter if you do not have a DMX through on your dimmers or if it does not have a through your console only has one output (which I believe the MX does not have). Any DMX opto isolator splitter will work, the DF one you post will work great, though you can get them cheaper if you look around a bit.


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## DHSLXOP (Dec 26, 2006)

Footer4321 said:


> I prefer the scroller route, but to each his own. I believe the a par64 with a 1k lamp in it is brighter then anything most comparably priced LED's will run.
> You will need an opto splitter if you do not have a DMX through on your dimmers or if it does not have a through your console only has one output (which I believe the MX does not have). Any DMX opto isolator splitter will work, the DF one you post will work great, though you can get them cheaper if you look around a bit.



I know for certain the MX does not have a through or a second output but I need to check the dimmers next time I'm in the theater. Do you know of any other companies that make an opto splitter and know how easy it is to use one?


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## Pie4Weebl (Dec 26, 2006)

several companies make them and they are insanely easy to use, just plug the line from your board into the in and in the outs one line to the dimmers and one to the chain of scrollers/led pars. But if you have a dmx through on your dimmer rack (as just about all do) that rout would be free which is even better.

As for the par/vs led, since the space is significantly smaller I think leds would be a better bet, mainly because the lack of noise involved which would be very noticeable with the scrollers.


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## DHSLXOP (Dec 26, 2006)

Pie4Weebl said:


> several companies make them and they are insanely easy to use, just plug the line from your board into the in and in the outs one line to the dimmers and one to the chain of scrollers/led pars. But if you have a dmx through on your dimmer rack (as just about all do) that rout would be free which is even better.
> As for the par/vs led, since the space is significantly smaller I think leds would be a better bet, mainly because the lack of noise involved which would be very noticeable with the scrollers.




Lack of noise is definitely something I looking for, since my theater is very small, so thanks for bringing that up. I do, however, want to be able to do cool, warm, and neutral washes (which I've really never been able to do before) Would it be best if I did that using Leds or pars with gels? (and if pars with gels, what color would be best...also how would they have to be focused?)


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## soundlight (Dec 26, 2006)

Nothing can beat scrollers or straight gels for amber and "warm white," but the scrollers are going to make an intolerable amount of noise in your small space. I am at a loss. Another option that has not been suggested yet is this: Get enough par cans to create a RAB (Red Amber Blue) was across the stage (3 cans per area), so that you can use amber, blue, red, or any shade of those colors mixed together. I'm thinking that you really won't be pulling out solid green much, and a RAB mix makes much more theatrical colors. So, if you have 4 lighting areas across the stage, you get 12 par cans, 3 for each area. But this again brings up the issue of 3 control channels of colors which your system does not support.

So basically, LED pars will get you all colors except a warm amber and a warm white, both of which are pretty critical to theater. If you've ever used RGB cyc lights you know what I mean, and you know what kinds of colors you can make.


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## DHSLXOP (Dec 26, 2006)

soundlight said:


> Nothing can beat scrollers or straight gels for amber and "warm white," but the scrollers are going to make an intolerable amount of noise in your small space. I am at a loss. Another option that has not been suggested yet is this: Get enough par cans to create a RAB (Red Amber Blue) was across the stage (3 cans per area), so that you can use amber, blue, red, or any shade of those colors mixed together. I'm thinking that you really won't be pulling out solid green much, and a RAB mix makes much more theatrical colors. So, if you have 4 lighting areas across the stage, you get 12 par cans, 3 for each area. But this again brings up the issue of 3 control channels of colors which your system does not support.
> So basically, LED pars will get you all colors except a warm amber and a warm white, both of which are pretty critical to theater. If you've ever used RGB cyc lights you know what I mean, and you know what kinds of colors you can make.



So there really is no other _good_ option for lighting unless I were to get a bigger control board that supports more channels?


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## soundlight (Dec 26, 2006)

Well, if you have two lights in the rest of your rig that are never turned on separately, you can patch those two together. On the Strand MX in our blackbox (it's the actor's console for when they're doing theater projects, our actual show console is an express 250 up in the booth), we have up to 3 fixtures/3 dimmer channels patched to one fader. This way you could free up some faders.


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## SHARYNF (Dec 26, 2006)

soundlight said:


> Nothing can beat scrollers or straight gels for amber and "warm white," but the scrollers are going to make an intolerable amount of noise in your small space. I am at a loss. Another option that has not been suggested yet is this: Get enough par cans to create a RAB (Red Amber Blue) was across the stage (3 cans per area), so that you can use amber, blue, red, or any shade of those colors mixed together. I'm thinking that you really won't be pulling out solid green much, and a RAB mix makes much more theatrical colors. So, if you have 4 lighting areas across the stage, you get 12 par cans, 3 for each area. But this again brings up the issue of 3 control channels of colors which your system does not support.
> So basically, LED pars will get you all colors except a warm amber and a warm white, both of which are pretty critical to theater. If you've ever used RGB cyc lights you know what I mean, and you know what kinds of colors you can make.



What is typically done in this case is to gel the led lights, there are some all white led's with gel frame holders and you just but bastard amber gel in it

As always every solution is a compromised
Sharyn


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## DHSLXOP (Dec 26, 2006)

soundlight said:


> Well, if you have two lights in the rest of your rig that are never turned on separately, you can patch those two together. On the Strand MX in our blackbox (it's the actor's console for when they're doing theater projects, our actual show console is an express 250 up in the booth), we have up to 3 fixtures/3 dimmer channels patched to one fader. This way you could free up some faders.




So based on what you said both here and above with the RAB mix, I could theoretically patch all of the Reds together on one, patch all of the ambers together on another, and all of the blues on a third correct? And by doing that I could only have to use three channels?


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## soundlight (Dec 26, 2006)

Response to the patching: Yes, you could patch all of the reds to one fader, all of the blues to one fader, and all of the ambers to one fader.

Response to the gelling LED's question: since the RGB LED pars and the white LED pars are the same price, you could get the ones with gel holders, and have 5 RGB LED pars with bastard amber gels and 5 RGB LED pars without. This would basically make all of the colors in one can warmer, so that you could have a warm and a cool can in each of 4 or 5 areas across the stage. That'd be a really good idea, IMO.


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## DHSLXOP (Dec 26, 2006)

soundlight said:


> Response to the patching: Yes, you could patch all of the reds to one fader, all of the blues to one fader, and all of the ambers to one fader.
> Response to the gelling LED's question: since the RGB LED pars and the white LED pars are the same price, you could get the ones with gel holders, and have 5 RGB LED pars with bastard amber gels and 5 RGB LED pars without. This would basically make all of the colors in one can warmer, so that you could have a warm and a cool can in each of 4 or 5 areas across the stage. That'd be a really good idea, IMO.


The only problem with this second part, though, is that I don't have enough control on the MX to be able to control RGB LED pars...


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## SHARYNF (Dec 26, 2006)

Here is a link to a more indepth review
http://srforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/t/19309/0/
Note they slightly wider beam at 10 feet. also currently if you want all white you probably want to look at A dj for those, and IMO the WEDIEMARK ones for the colors.

Sharyn


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## DHSLXOP (Dec 26, 2006)

SHARYNF said:


> Here is a link to a more indepth review
> http://srforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/t/19309/0/
> Note they slightly wider beam at 10 feet. also currently if you want all white you probably want to look at A dj for those, and IMO the WEDIEMARK ones for the colors.
> Sharyn



Thankyou for the site, its very helpful.
Again though, I'd still be struggling for channels since each Led Parcan takes 4 channels to run, and I don't really have that capability on my board. 

Does anyone know of any silent scrollers that are out there? Could that be an alternative at all?


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## soundlight (Dec 26, 2006)

All scrollers require motors and fans, both of which make noise. And the gel can also get caught in an air current (this happened in our theater and we tried for five minutes to find where the sound was coming from before looking up to first beam, where the gel in a scroller on an S4 zoom on first beam was making quite a racket.


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## DHSLXOP (Dec 26, 2006)

Oh ok. So basically my best options would be to get a bigger board (with more channels) and then get LED Par cans or keep the same board and deal with the noise of scrollers. Am i correct in saying this?


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## soundlight (Dec 26, 2006)

Unless someone comes up with the magic answer, then I'd say yes. (Don't get me wrong, I'd be glad for the magic answer!)

I'd go with LED's and Smartfade, if I were you, but that's just personal preference. Smartfade 2496, 5 RGB LED pars, and 5 White LED Pars with the bastard amber gels in them. Comes out to right around $3K.


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## DHSLXOP (Dec 26, 2006)

soundlight said:


> Unless someone comes up with the magic answer, then I'd say yes. (Don't get me wrong, I'd be glad for the magic answer!)
> I'd go with LED's and Smartfade, if I were you, but that's just personal preference. Smartfade 2496, 5 RGB LED pars, and 5 White LED Pars with the bastard amber gels in them. Comes out to right around $3K.




Thanks so much for your help. If I did this, how would I then go about focusing them?

Edit: Also, would it be better to just get standard par 64s and then put the bastard amber gels in those...that way I don't have to spend the additional money on LED lights?


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## soundlight (Dec 26, 2006)

You could set up five frontlight wash areas across the stage: SL, CSL, C, CSR, SR. One RGB and one amber par for each. You would focus them straight on (instead of coming in from a side).

About the standard par cans: I would have three things against them.
1) You will have different qualities of light, because one will be LED and one will be standard incandescent.
2) You will have to hook the standard PAR's up to dimmers.
3) You will have to replace PAR bulbs. LED's will last for much longer than PAR bulbs.

EDIT: Also, don't forget to add a DMX splitter to your budget, get the Doug Fleenor 3-output model, and Premier Lighting has a good price on that as well.


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## DHSLXOP (Dec 26, 2006)

soundlight said:


> You could set up five frontlight wash areas across the stage: SL, CSL, C, CSR, SR. One RGB and one amber par for each. You would focus them straight on (instead of coming in from a side).
> About the standard par cans: I would have three things against them.
> 1) You will have different qualities of light, because one will be LED and one will be standard incandescent.
> 2) You will have to hook the standard PAR's up to dimmers.
> ...




Thanks for the great suggestion and using those 3 facts, I've decided I'd rather not use them. 
What brand of LED's should I be looking at?


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## soundlight (Dec 26, 2006)

If you can get them go with Sharyn's suggestion for the RGB mixers, especially because of the review that they got on that other forum. For white cans, check the American DJ all-white can, it has a gel frame, and you should be able to pop an amber gel in there.

If you'd like, I can make a mock-up budget that has the controller, cans, cables, splitter, gels, etc. and email it to you in excel format. Being a college student, I don't "promote my own company", so I'll just be sending you the best prices that I can find. Just PM me your email if you'd like a budget mock-up.


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## DHSLXOP (Dec 26, 2006)

soundlight said:


> If you can get them go with Sharyn's suggestion for the RGB mixers, especially because of the review that they got on that other forum. For white cans, check the American DJ all-white can, it has a gel frame, and you should be able to pop an amber gel in there.
> If you'd like, I can make a mock-up budget that has the controller, cans, cables, splitter, gels, etc. and email it to you in excel format. Being a college student, I don't "promote my own company", so I'll just be sending you the best prices that I can find. Just PM me your email if you'd like a budget mock-up.


That would be great. Thanks so much! I'll PM you my email. (if I can figure out how to do it)

Edit: I figured it out


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## Footer (Dec 27, 2006)

soundlight said:


> All scrollers require motors and fans, both of which make noise. And the gel can also get caught in an air current (this happened in our theater and we tried for five minutes to find where the sound was coming from before looking up to first beam, where the gel in a scroller on an S4 zoom on first beam was making quite a racket.



Apollo scrollers set on slow fan and slow scroll are nearly silent.


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## SHARYNF (Dec 27, 2006)

the bigger issue is the cost, the fact that you need a dimmer, and that you need to scroll to get to the color you want. By the time you addin all the cost most people simply go with multiple pars, and gel them to suit
on leko it is another matter, since currently the color changers that fit into the source 4 are around 1500 dollars each

Sharyn


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## Footer (Dec 27, 2006)

SHARYNF said:


> the bigger issue is the cost, the fact that you need a dimmer, and that you need to scroll to get to the color you want. By the time you addin all the cost most people simply go with multiple pars, and gel them to suit
> on leko it is another matter, since currently the color changers that fit into the source 4 are around 1500 dollars each
> Sharyn



Scrolls are included (Apollo has two to choose from). Also, they already have the dimmers from they way it sounds. Also, the Apollo scrollers with the universal mounting plate can mount on whatever fixture you buy, including a par64, and they run for around 380 bux. You will still have to buy cable and a power supply, but you can pick up a few scrollers for rather cheap, and they are very high quality. If you do want a custom scroll made, they run around 30 bux a piece, and you are getting true color that will match anything that you put in you conventionals.


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## SHARYNF (Dec 27, 2006)

Obviously there are different approaches and preferences. Personally I think scrollers make sense for expensive instruments when the cost for multiples gel'd to what you need is not practical. Again personally I don't think scrollers make sense on par's, but again that is just opinion. Apollo makes a great product, no question, but on e leko sure, on a fresnel maybe, on a par, not so certain.

The other issue here is small space, first electric is 10 feet stage is 20 feet deep, so I'd say you are going to want 4-6 pars, I think 2 would be hard to get an even wash with. 
Sharyn


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## DHSLXOP (Dec 27, 2006)

SHARYNF said:


> Obviously there are different approaches and preferences. Personally I think scrollers make sense for expensive instruments when the cost for multiples gel'd to what you need is not practical. Again personally I don't think scrollers make sense on par's, but again that is just opinion. Apollo makes a great product, no question, but on e leko sure, on a fresnel maybe, on a par, not so certain.
> The other issue here is small space, first electric is 10 feet stage is 20 feet deep, so I'd say you are going to want 4-6 pars, I think 2 would be hard to get an even wash with.
> Sharyn



Just wondering-why do you not think scrollers make sense on a par? And what would they be better off going on, in your opinion?


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## soundlight (Dec 27, 2006)

I think that scrollers work well on PAR's, as long as they are either shorties, scroller supporters, or S4 pars. We use scrollers on S4 pars for every dance concert that we do.


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## DHSLXOP (Dec 27, 2006)

soundlight said:


> I think that scrollers work well on PAR's, as long as they are either shorties, scroller supporters, or S4 pars. We use scrollers on S4 pars for every dance concert that we do.



oh ok..thanks for clearing that up.


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## SHARYNF (Dec 27, 2006)

My reasons in addition to the technical ones that have been outlined, is cost, typically you don't use more than 4 or so different gels in a production, a so the cost of the scroller vs the cost of simply adding additional pars tends to favor the additional pars. In a lot of pro productions the whole reason for pars was minimal cost, giving you the option for large quantities. Concerts etc you tend to just have loads of truss sections all pre loaded and ready to go.

Personally as I said, I tend to use scrollers for an instrument in an out of the way place, where I have a limited number of the instrument so I don't have the option to gel multiples or the instrument is simply expensive and so the option of adding multiples is not an option, or a situation where space limitations restricts it, or there simply are not enought dimmer channels.

My opinion is that LED's are likely to make major inroads in the whole par section, where basically you have an inexpensive instrument, don't need dimmer channels, etc. 

Sharyn


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## DHSLXOP (Dec 27, 2006)

Using Led's, would I have RGB color mixing so that I can make many colors, or would I just have red, green, and blue colors coming out of it?


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## soundlight (Dec 27, 2006)

You would have RGB Mixing.


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## DHSLXOP (Dec 27, 2006)

soundlight said:


> You would have RGB Mixing.



Oh ok...great


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## drawstuf99 (Dec 27, 2006)

Another thing that is sort of neat that I do often that's sort of a "colorchanger/LED cop-out" is gel three instruments with R27, R80, R61 (the primary red, green, and blue) and focus them in the same spot while hanging them as close as possible next to each other. Often I find we have just enough of an inventory to do that. Now, this is with S4 ERSes because they burn almost white so you can pretty much have any color and for me it's cheaper than buying scrollers, renting them, plus we dont have readily available DMX on stage. I wouldn't be so quick to do this with PARs of any kind (regular or S4) just because pars diffuse so much and you wouldn't be garanteed to get the same focus on all three units.

This has the small advantage over most scrollers just because if the director (like some I've worked with) are like "i want more of ____ color!" then you can give it to them in a way that makes since. Now, LED lights are doing the same thing, but this is a good alternative.

Just one note: Watch those shadows because they can get a little funky at times. But with some planning this is a really fun technique.


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## DHSLXOP (Dec 27, 2006)

drawstuf99 said:


> Another thing that is sort of neat that I do often that's sort of a "colorchanger/LED cop-out" is gel three instruments with R27, R80, R61 (the primary red, green, and blue) and focus them in the same spot while hanging them as close as possible next to each other. Often I find we have just enough of an inventory to do that. Now, this is with S4 ERSes because they burn almost white so you can pretty much have any color and for me it's cheaper than buying scrollers, renting them, plus we dont have readily available DMX on stage. I wouldn't be so quick to do this with PARs of any kind (regular or S4) just because pars diffuse so much and you wouldn't be garanteed to get the same focus on all three units.
> This has the small advantage over most scrollers just because if the director (like some I've worked with) are like "i want more of ____ color!" then you can give it to them in a way that makes since. Now, LED lights are doing the same thing, but this is a good alternative.
> Just one note: Watch those shadows because they can get a little funky at times. But with some planning this is a really fun technique.



So when you say this, do you mean that you gel the lights those primary colors only, or do you do this in addition to using LED lights? Also, what are some techniques that you use to eliminate shadowing?


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## drawstuf99 (Dec 28, 2006)

This is a complete alternative to using LEDs or scrollers. In our case it's just cheaper to buy some sheets of gels than running DMX places and buying new things.

So yes, you have three units hung directly next to each other and they are geled RGB (R27, 80, and the green which the number escapes me) - meaning you have one red unit, one green unit, and one blue unit. The shadows will (depending on intesity of those three units) will end up being a combo of cyan, magenta, yellow on the floor. Usually, and this is sort of difficult to explain without seeing each individual venue, but I've done it mostly from the front or some sort of extreme front/side 45 position. Usually they're units that have really large spreads so each can practically wash a section of the stage.

To eliminate that show problem, usually (depending on your plot) the top and side lights mask it. You may not want to use this technique really as primary light because you might start seeing those shadows, but you are safe usually at pretty high intensity. Its hard to explain, but usally on a black floor you're alright. Just watch shadows on other people (and as i said, depending on your design the top, side, and front light do well enough at masking it).

Hope this helps?


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## soundlight (Dec 28, 2006)

I would think that the cost of getting all new parcans, all new gels, and the bulb replacement costs would equal that of using LED Parcans.


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## DHSLXOP (Dec 28, 2006)

Another question I have is, what if I some day wanted to add Rosco Icues to the rig? Could I change the adresses on the LED's and then use 2 channels on the board as a pan and tilt? Or would that not work?


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## Pie4Weebl (Dec 28, 2006)

DHSLXOP said:


> Another question I have is, what if I some day wanted to add Rosco Icues to the rig? Could I change the adresses on the LED's and then use 2 channels on the board as a pan and tilt? Or would that not work?


it would but then you would loose control of the leds, assuming your not going to buy a larger board which could do both at once.


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## DHSLXOP (Dec 28, 2006)

Pie4Weebl said:


> it would but then you would loose control of the leds, assuming your not going to buy a larger board which could do both at once.



I know, I just wanted to be sure that this would work. They do only take 2 channels each right?


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## soundlight (Dec 28, 2006)

In 8 bit mode, yes, they only take 2 channels each. But in 16 bit mode they take 2 channels for pan and 2 channels for tilt, one coarse and one fine for each. But you'd probably get away just fine with 8 bit mode.


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## DHSLXOP (Dec 28, 2006)

soundlight said:


> In 8 bit mode, yes, they only take 2 channels each. But in 16 bit mode they take 2 channels for pan and 2 channels for tilt, one coarse and one fine for each. But you'd probably get away just fine with 8 bit mode.



Thats great...I was just at my theater and was looking at our dimmers. We use the type "CD80 Supervisor" its made by strand, but I really couldn't tell if it had a DMX through on it or not. Do you know anything about this dimmer, and have you possibly ever used it before. 

I also looked at the MX and confirmed that it does not have any additional dmx outputs on it.


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## SHARYNF (Dec 28, 2006)

These were pretty standard a number of years ago, typically they had the option of several control systems depending on what you were set up with, if you look at the connector feeding the dimmer assuming it is not directly wired in for control, if you have 4 pin xlr or a funny odd smaller connector, it is AMX if it is 5 pin xlr then typically it is dmx, also look at the output from your console.

It is possible that you have a converter in the system to change your control protocol. It typically takes some looking around seeing how they are connected and what is there to figure it all out. Usually on a pro installation the stuff is pretty much labeled.

It is probably possible to find the final input, un terminate it and get the dmx out assuming it is dmx, since most of the racks were all set up to be able to add additional racks to the system.

Does it look like this? 

http://www.strandlight.com/US/cd80_sv.html

there is more information at that site also

Sharyn


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## DHSLXOP (Dec 28, 2006)

SHARYNF said:


> These were pretty standard a number of years ago, typically they had the option of several control systems depending on what you were set up with, if you look at the connector feeding the dimmer assuming it is not directly wired in for control, if you have 4 pin xlr or a funny odd smaller connector, it is AMX if it is 5 pin xlr then typically it is dmx, also look at the output from your console.
> It is possible that you have a converter in the system to change your control protocol. It typically takes some looking around seeing how they are connected and what is there to figure it all out. Usually on a pro installation the stuff is pretty much labeled.
> It is probably possible to find the final input, un terminate it and get the dmx out assuming it is dmx, since most of the racks were all set up to be able to add additional racks to the system.
> Does it look like this?
> ...



Its a lot smaller but it kind of looks like that. I'm not really sure how to find the final input, and being that I don't work at the theater, I just volunteer, I would rather not start taking things apart with the dimmer...plus I have absolutely no idea where I could find those things with the dimmer.


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## SHARYNF (Dec 29, 2006)

The also made a touring rack, if you can find where the control cable comes into he dimmer (probably the main non electric cable, and see if right by it there is another jack marked output. Most of the racks as i said have ins and outs, USUALLY jacks are pretty well marked)

Sharyn


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## Footer (Dec 29, 2006)

In a rack install like that, there usually is no jack on the rack, or near the rack, for a through. However, there is a terminal block inside the rack that you can tie into to get a DMX through rather easily. If you dig in your book a bit, I am sure you can find it. If you do not feel comfortable doing it give you local lighting company a call and they can get it put in for you. It will save you a pretty penny, so I would do some reading!


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## DHSLXOP (Dec 29, 2006)

Footer4321 said:


> In a rack install like that, there usually is no jack on the rack, or near the rack, for a through. However, there is a terminal block inside the rack that you can tie into to get a DMX through rather easily. If you dig in your book a bit, I am sure you can find it. If you do not feel comfortable doing it give you local lighting company a call and they can get it put in for you. It will save you a pretty penny, so I would do some reading!



I'll talk to the theater manager (building operations director) about this, and see what he says. (knowing him, he'll probably not allow it)


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## DHSLXOP (Dec 29, 2006)

Another question that I have (and I hope this relates enough to the topic is)...Would LEDs have enough intensity (if focused correctly) to be able to light our black traveler all the way upstage (ok, 20 feet), or would the color not be able to travel that far?

Edit: Does this make sense?


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## soundlight (Dec 29, 2006)

Certainly. Hmmm...if your traveler is only 20' upstage, and your pipe is less than 10' from the front of the stage, then I'd think that the Wiedamark cans would definitely throw that far. But I'm not sure if they'd be bright enough.


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## DHSLXOP (Dec 29, 2006)

soundlight said:


> Certainly. Hmmm...if your traveler is only 20' upstage, and your pipe is less than 10' from the front of the stage, then I'd think that the Wiedamark cans would definitely throw that far. But I'm not sure if they'd be bright enough.



oh ok. So if I wanted to light the traveler well, would gelling the 5 fresnels (sp?) that are hanging there probably be the best option for now?


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## soundlight (Dec 29, 2006)

I'd say so. Is there a cyc behind it, or is it just a black traveler?


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## DHSLXOP (Dec 29, 2006)

soundlight said:


> I'd say so. Is there a cyc behind it, or is it just a black traveler?



Black traveler followed by black brick wall with fire alarm directly center.


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## TravelHedgehog (May 17, 2011)

*Scrollers Move When Master Fader is Moved on Strand MX Console, help!*

[This post has been moved here from another location.]

Hi guys!

I've just connected Wybron Coloram 2 scrollers to my system (daisy chained off three Strand CD80 packs).

All of this is run off of an old Strand MX lighting console, the scrollers are set to scroll with the level of the fader on the console (as I believe most are).

So, here's my issue, any input would be greatly appreciated!

Whenever I pull down my master fader (so to fade to black), my scrollers start to scroll! Now this obviously makes sense, seeing as they're controlled by the main output of the board and all.

So, here's my question: Is it possible to set the console in such a way to make the faders that are patched to the scrollers independant of the master? I'm not entirely sure what terminology I should be researching here or in the manual, so I'm really drawing a blank. I know there are ways to do this on higher end consoles, but I was wondering if it is possible to do on the Strand MX console? 

If I could, I would run them on two seperate universes, although unfortunately we do not have the means to do so (lacking a seperate console)

Any strand MX users out there that can lend a hand? Thanks!


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## coldnorth57 (May 17, 2011)

*Re: Scrollers Move When Master Fader is Moved on Strand MX Console, help!*

Hey there TravelHedgehog,
With the Strand MX board wich I used a few years ago I know that the Master fader has FULL control over the output of the board. Yes in newer boards they can be told not to effect the non intensity channels ie: PAN, TILT SCROOLERS and so on...


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