# Need advice for speaker placement in new church



## richardh (Mar 5, 2012)

I am helping out with the sound and lighting install for a new church being built. Right now I am trying to figure out where to put the speakers. Here is a 360 panorama of the space.

Fellowship Bible Church Lindon Utah - Photosynth

another from the main floor

Fellowship Bible Church Lindon Utah - Photosynth

I was thinking of placing the speakers behind the wall in the corner areas. Thinking of making some kind of light fabric or screen so the speakers can go behind the wall right above the doors. Not sure if we will have feedback issues or if this might be just to wide. Could also run a center channel along with the sides to help fill it and have only voice coming from the center and music from the sides.

Another option would be place them higher up and hang them from the roof at an angle. People are going to be people sitting close to the stage and the room is not very deep but there is a balcony. 

Thanks for any suggestions.

-Richard


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## derekleffew (Mar 5, 2012)

richardh said:


> ...Not sure if we will have feedback issues or if this might be just too wide.


Yes to both.


richardh said:


> ...Another option would be place them higher up and hang them from the roof at an angle. People are going to be people sitting close to the stage and the room is not very deep but there is a balcony. ...


L,C,R clusters, plus front-fill and under-balcony systems.

What's the purpose of the audio system? What's the budget? Can the structure support suspended loudspeaker s/array s? Active or passive loudspeakers? Available power? Do you have someone who can model the room in EASE (or similar) and "audition" various cabinets and locations?
These daunting questions are why you need to seek professional help in person from a theatre/audio consultant.


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## chausman (Mar 5, 2012)

I think that LCR for a church is probably over-kill, unless it is a very wide space. From the pictures, it doesn't appear to be that wide.

From the pictures, I would say having the speakers flown (properly of course) this thread may be useful, and angled down. Smaller front-fills might be needed, maybe not. Don't forget if you have under-balcony systems in place, you'll need delays for them.

Again, you should probably have a consultant come in and at least take a look at the space. Or a local dealer to help, to make sure you get everything you need, and that it will be installed correctly.


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## richardh (Mar 5, 2012)

The purpose of the audio system is provide clean audio mostly for a speaker up front and for worship music. They have a small amount of people that play which includes Keyboard, Guitar, Electric drums, and singers. They are pretty low key and don't need to reach concert level volumes and don't really want the look of a concert type of environment with stacks of speakers suspended.

They only have a $5,000 budget for the audio right now so trying to figure out what would be good to start with and possibly add on to or even replace a few years down the road if they have more funds. They are really stretching their budget to get this finished and maybe in a few years we will upgrade the audio systems if it needs to be better.

I figure we will be going with Passive speakers with a bi-amp system so the mains will be driving the mids and highs and then have a subwoofer somewhere. I figured we will have 2 20amp dedicated circuits for the sound/lighting booth but the theater lights will have own 4 dedicated 20 amp circuits above in the rafters. So that gives us 40amps of 110v to run the amplifiers and the audio equipment from the sound area. 

The upper ceiling will remain open and just painted black so it will be easy to run additional speaker runs to more speakers that we may want to hang to fill in other areas. It may be a good idea to run speaker wire through the lower balcony ceiling when the time does come if we want to add speakers in there.


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## museav (Mar 5, 2012)

richardh said:


> The purpose of the audio system is provide clean audio mostly for a speaker up front and for worship music. They have a small amount of people that play which includes Keyboard, Guitar, Electric drums, and singers. They are pretty low key and don't need to reach concert level volumes and don't really want the look of a concert type of environment with stacks of speakers suspended.
> 
> They only have a $5,000 budget for the audio right now so trying to figure out what would be good to start with and possibly add on to or even replace a few years down the road if they have more funds. They are really stretching their budget to get this finished and maybe in a few years we will upgrade the audio systems if it needs to be better.
> 
> I figure we will be going with Passive speakers with a bi-amp system so the mains will be driving the mids and highs and then have a subwoofer somewhere.


Looking at the construction, have there been or will there be any provisions in terms of floor boxes, conduit, junction boxes, etc. for the audio? If not then it looks to be getting late in the game to be starting to address them.

That is a very challenging space for audio. A very wide seating area compared to the depth, a balcony, a very large (relative to the room) thrust stage, people seated close to the stage, electronic drums and keys, multiple vocalists and so on. Getting acceptable, full range coverage of all of the listeners, acceptable gain before feedback and acceptable intelligibility for spoken word will be a challenge, perhaps even more so depending on the acoustical environment. Adding to that challenge is the $5,000 budget. And if that budget has to cover any infrastructure such as conduit and boxes, miscellaneous items such as plates, hardware, equipment racks and power distribution/sequencing and/or anything such as Assistive Listening, stage monitors, recording and so on then you realistically have less than that to spend on the main FOH system.

You might be able to get a speaker in each corner to cover the related half of the main floor, but not only does that still leave the balcony to be covered, it is also going to be a bit unsettling when people hear the sound coming from the corners rather than the stage. A flown center or exploded array might make more sense but I'm not sure is practical with your budget.

I will guess that the budget was determined based on what the church wants to or can spend rather than on a concept for a solution. Think about this, a couple of two-way powered 10" or 12" mains like the QSC K10 or K12 or the JBL PRX612M with two matching subs would be around $4,000. I'm not suggesting that is what you get but just pointing out that a decent but relatively simple speaker system like that would leave just $1,000 for mics, mixer, cables and snakes, stands, processing and anything else. Or turning that around, a speaker system like that may not be a complete solution for that space but even it is probably not practical with a $5,000 budget.

Since you mentioned this perhaps being a somewhat temporary install, would it be feasible to assume the balcony would not be used or everyone would sit in the center of the main floor until there was a need for more seating, at which point the audio system could also be expanded and/or revised? Is there any used, existing or borrowed gear that could be used at least temporarily? I think the simple fact is that if such options are not available then you may be pushed to simply get a system that works for you at all and limited in how much you can consider the system properly serving the space.

All that said, with the space and budget you have I think that figuring out what you really have to spend on the speaker system and what the priorities are for the system need to be determined and reconciled.


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## tk2k (Mar 5, 2012)

The k10 is very nice and has a good angle of cover. What you really want is this. DSA: Digitally Steerable Array because you can place them basically anywhere and not have to worry about feedback, and they look nice. And are way out of your budget range. 

Here's what I'd say. Tell them they are buiding a church, and they probably won't be building another for many many years. Tell them if they want to do this correctly, without worry, then you need more money. 

Do you have a separate budgets for wireless, the mixer, etc?


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## richardh (Mar 5, 2012)

The $5,000 budget is for Amps, Speakers, Mixers, & Processing. One of the members of the church has a large Sub woofer that he said we can use so that might help. All the electrical is already figured in.They have a snake, shure wireless mic system, other cheap mics, and a few other things. They have some kind of passive Pevy speakers now on stands (think mobile DJ) and an amp in their very small church. The floor already has two 3" conduit running under it from the control area that goes under the stage. I also told them to install conduit up the back wall the goes into the open ceiling area. The front has two hallow columns that connect with the stage so will be easy to run stuff up and down. We had about $3,000 also for lighting, but may be able to use some of that. I was able to pick up 8 LEKO 30 and 40s for really cheap and they don't need moving lights or anything.


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## rwhealey (Mar 5, 2012)

tk2k said:


> \What you really want is this. DSA: Digitally Steerable Array because you can place them basically anywhere and not have to worry about feedback, and they look nice. And are way out of your budget range.



What? While column loudspeakers like the ones you posted are a useful tool in the sound system designer's toolbox, they aren't magic. You certainly have to worry about placement and feedback when using a column array. In fact, the horizontal pattern of the loudspeakers you listed is 120 degrees, so there would probably be more sound on the stage than a traditional large format horn if these were installed in the left and right corners. In addition, the -3dB point that particular speaker is 90Hz, and that won't work for electronic drums, so now you're talking lots of large bass loudspeakers somewhere in the building too.


> Here's what I'd say. Tell them they are building a church, and they probably won't be building another for many many years. Tell them if they want to do this correctly, without worry, then you need more money.



This, however, I do agree with.

What is the model number of the Peavey loudspeakers that the church already owns? Maybe they could be used temporarily until the church comes up with enough money to hire an acoustical consult.


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## museav (Mar 6, 2012)

richardh said:


> The $5,000 budget is for Amps, Speakers, Mixers, & Processing.


What about speaker cables, speaker mounts, a rack for the amps and other other gear, any FOH signal processing, etc.? How many inputs are required for the mixer? They have electronic drums and keyboards so it seems likely something is needed in terms of stage monitoring, does the budget need to include any stage monitoring? It is common to overlook all of the ancillary items, but that can be an important factor when dealing with a limited and fixed budget.


richardh said:


> All the electrical is already figured in.


You mentioned having two 20A circuits but is that power enough and is it where you need/want it? For example, if the audio power is all at the FOH mix position then does that eliminate powered speakers as a practical option and would all of the audio equipment have to be at FOH with one of the 3" conduits dedicated to speaker lines? What about power on stage for the drums, keyboards, instrument amps, etc.?


richardh said:


> They have a snake, shure wireless mic system, other cheap mics, and a few other things.


Is the snake of sufficient in length, I/O count, etc. for the new space? Is the wireless legal? Do they need any additional or replacement mics, stands, mic cables, etc.? Those are relatively easy items to address as other funds become available but if anything needs to be in the initial budget then those items can start to add up.


richardh said:


> The upper ceiling will remain open and just painted black so it will be easy to run additional speaker runs to more speakers that we may want to hang to fill in other areas. It may be a good idea to run speaker wire through the lower balcony ceiling when the time does come if we want to add speakers in there.


I'm sure the Architect for the space can address this, but have you verified that leaving the ceiling exposed is feasible? It is a public assembly space so leaving a wood roof deck and trusses exposed may require special considerations or not even be an option. And any speaker cable run in the ceiling or walls without conduit would have to be properly rated.

While it typically makes sense to plan for the future and get as much as possible to support those future plans in place during the initial construction, any investment that represents would affect what is then practical to do for the initial system installation. And additional considerations such as trying to hide the speakers may place even greater limitations on what is practical.



The house speaker system is both a critical component of the overall audio system performance and one of the more difficult, and less likely, aspects of the system to easily change in the future, so focusing on that generally makes sense. However, in this case they likely need to have a functional system right from the start and since the budget will likely be a significant factor in what is actually possible for the speaker system, it may make sense to first figure out what else has to be covered by the budget and those associated costs before getting too far into trying to assess the speaker system.

This seems a situation of a system budget developed without consideration of the space, the application or the desired results, which explains why it seems unlikely to be able to fully reconcile all of those different considerations with the budget. I'm sure they can do something within the budget, however the space itself defines considerations that don't seem to be reflected in the budget. As a result, some compromises are almost certainly going to be required and unfortunately it seems too late to address the room or budget, which means that any compromised may have to be to functionality and/or quality. I'm not trying to be discouraging, just identifying what may be practical considerations as they are likely facing a situation that will result in a solution that is more doing what they can within the budget rather than doing what may be desired and most appropriate for the space and application.

For example, they may not want 'speakers on a stick' on stage, but that may be all they can initially afford. Or they may have to initially live with less than desired coverage of some of the listener areas. If they can't make those types of compromises then something else may have to give that could significantly affect the system functionality.


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## tk2k (Mar 6, 2012)

rwhealey said:


> What? While column loudspeakers like the ones you posted are a useful tool in the sound system designer's toolbox, they aren't magic.


I was mostly kidding, they're pretty fantastic for vocal projection and side fills for wide venues, got one of another company in our setup with presets depending on how much of the house they opened up.

I think a lot of this has already been said, I'd suggest taking a bit of what everyone has said here and sitting down with your boss. To be honest, adding 20k onto the construction cost of a building will not increase the cost much, and if you do it correctly the reinforcement will do exactly what it is designed to do. Be invisible to the ear. Roman cathedrals were built with sound projection in mind, thats why a lot of them still do not have integrated sound systems. It's part of building an attractive church, making the speaker (human) sound as natural and un-amplified as possible.

Pitch it in terms of member retention as well. I know that sounds a little cold, but theres a lot of churches out there, and usually the only real difference between them is the person speaking. you gotta make him or her as clear and natural sounding as possible.


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