# What should an outdoor amphitheater stage be made of???



## chieftfac

The long and short of it....

Over the next 8 months we are going to be renovating the campus of our performing arts center. In that renovation, we will be building a 125 seat amphitheater. Conceptual drawings from the architect show a 15ft diameter round concrete stage, stamped and stained. Size is an issue and we can talk to him about that. The big question is what should the surface be?? This is a "community space" and it will have varied uses, dance, theater, bands, weddings, and anything else we can think of to make some money. Is concrete best for the long term? Anybody have any luck with that "plastic/wood-fiber decking? 

Mods, if this need to be placed elsewhere, please ,do that voodoo, you do, so well....


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## emoreth

Don't go with composite decking. It won't last as long as concrete, and building a workable stage out of it won't be easy.


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## josh88

emoreth said:


> Don't go with composite decking. It won't last as long as concrete, and building a workable stage out of it won't be easy.




concrete would be my choice as well. Lasts a long time, you can stain it a nice attractive color and it won't rot away like a wood deck. Composite is nice in that it's more durable than plain old pressure treated wood, but it will fade pretty rapidly and change color and then you've got to essentially build an actual deck, where as you pour a concrete slab on the ground and you're done. with any kind other materials you've got to also think of the frame and support and all that. Concrete is easier and better in the long run.


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## MPowers

chieftfac said:


> ..............The big question is what should the surface be?? This is a "community space" and it will have varied uses, dance, ..............



Dance.....if the facility intends to have dance, concrete is a problem. Many dance companies will not perform or rehearse on a concrete floor. It is extremely hard on a dancers knees, hips, lower back and ankles. 

It is also hard and uncomfortable on actors if they spend all day rehearsing on it. If it is summer rep with rehearsal during the day and performance at night, it gets very tiring. 

The last time I did outdoor theatre, the stage was hard packed sand. Of course we had 22 horses and 60 foot soldiers in the cast. I know by experience what the term "bring on the empty horses" means!!!  

For seasonal, standard stage shows, musicals comedies and dramas, my suggestion is a permanent concrete base with a temp deck laid over. A temp deck for seasonal use can be stock platforms, stock "staging (Stage Right, Wenger et.al.) or a custom built deck on sleepers assembled each year. 

What is best depends on the intended use, lthe exposure to elements during the season etc. 

Tell us a bit more about the place and the intended uses.


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## sk8rsdad

+1 for concrete. Water is going to destroy most any other surface in a very short time, and if the surface gets destroyed, the substructure quickly follows.

I have some experience building outdoor skateboard ramps so I learned that hard way that dealing with the water and getting the drainage right is going to be the biggest challenge with any outdoor performance space. When the slab is poured the crew doing needs to take a great deal of care in order to prevent pooling. If you decide to build a sprung floor on top of a concrete base, ventilation, drainage, and protection of the substructure are all concerns that need to be addressed.

If you want a very durable masonite-like surface then have a look at phenolic resin empregnated hardboard. It is expensive, but worth it for durability. The stuff on my son's backyard ramp has been exposed to the Ottawa elements for a decade now with few signs of wear. I had a good experience with Iten Industries, based in Ashtabula, OH. They make a product that they OEM as Ramp Armor. They understand the issues with outdoor applications and would be able to help find a suitable product for your application.


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## chieftfac

Thanks People, This helps me convince a few interested parties that we are researching this and trying to accommodate as many uses as possible, though one group has a "build my way, or we don't use it" mentality. Usage will be more along the lines of rentals and several internally produced events including a few concerts, a Jazz series, maybe some outdoor theatre, and a community/children's theater festival event that would include bands, drama presentations and some tap and jazz dance. I'm including a concept/fundraising drawing of the project. We are a go and funding is in place.


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## derekleffew

chieftfac said:


> ...though one group has a "build my way, or we don't use it" mentality. ...


Don't let the (out) door hit you in the behind! 
(Unless it's the professional ballet company--they'd have a legitimate concern.)

Sounds like a concrete surface will be fine. In looking at the site plan, I'd worry that a 15'D. stage (176 ft. sq.; ~13'x13') is too small for anything other than a three piece jazz band. Why not a more rectangular shaped stage with a 7.5'R. curved apron? Quite often stages are too small; seldom is one too large.

How many 400A switches are you installing for power?

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Tell us more about the "New Addition" to your stagehouse?


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## chieftfac

As far as power drops, I'd be happy with a 100A switch. I'll probably get 2, 20A quad boxes!!! That will be talked about on Friday. Extension cords are tacky and hazardous is my mantra to the committee... We are on the side of a hill here in Tryon NC, and there is about a 19'-8" elevation change from the bottom of the access ramp (we nicknamed it Lombard St) to the top. As far as the "New Addition", that's phase two. It will basically be a 2 story glass box that will connect to the lower part of the building. It will not connect to our theater space. The idea is to have a very flexible space for dinners, small concerts, (classical, acoustic jazz, etc) art gallery space, and classroom space. (I look at it as job security and I know it will need acoustic treatment). Phase two will take some serious fund raising so we want to do Phase one right to be able to say "hey, look how well we spent your donations so far, please give to phase two" We have one donor who wants to pay for the "box" to have a roof garden, and luckily, he has the means... Now if I can only get him to throw some funds toward stage equipment.... ;-) I'll try to post some pics of our space over the next few days...


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## Van

If I had my Druthers..... I would want a concrete deck with a layer of the stuff they use Running tracks. 
Used to work on a stage that was concrete then had Tennis court material over it. No matter what, if there is going to be Dance happening you're going to have to spring for a portable sprung floor.


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## chieftfac

Thanks Van.... A really good idea, though I think a temp wooden floor is going to be the only way this is going to work. Can't imagine Tap shoes (or clogging shoes) working well on that surface....


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## tprewitt

There's a material I've seen called EPG. (Engineered plexi-glass, I think.) It's common in theaters with heavy automation. It can be laid over wood or composite sleepers same as plywood, but is a Lexan type product. It's almost indestructible, permanent black color (I think other colors are available), can be painted, gives enough for use with ballet and theatre, hard enough to sound good for tap. It can be a little slick when wet, about like tempered Masonite or dull finished hardwood. Main downside is cost.


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## gafftaper

Talk to Harlequin about a portable sprung feeling dance floor. They have the most amazing booth at LDI. You are on a hard concrete convention floor surface. Everyone else tries to cover up how hard the floor is with layers of padding and carpet. Harlequin brings in one of their portable floors. It looks like hard wood, but feels like you are walking on a pillow. A concrete stage with a portable sprung floor and you are set. 

+1 for thinking about increasing the size of the stage. That's a really small stage.


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## Aerial

I'd also go with the portable sprung dance floor over the concrete for dance. Everyone else can easily use concrete. I'm on one practically everyday on top of a concrete slab. Falls from 6 feet up aren't even too bad. My dance studio uses it in a semi-permanent install. The only thing I'd be concerned with is tap shoes on the thing if it is a finished wood top:it'll be scuffed up quick. We had that mistake happen (luckily on an extra panel off to the side) in about 2 minutes. Cover with some marley and you should be fine. Also, it can be easily transported to school gyms/cafeterias for outreach events.

The other, though less desirable option may be to have a grassy are between the amphitheater seating and the stage. Works okay for _some_ festival situations, but you can't turn very easily on grass...


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## shiben

Aerial said:


> Falls from 6 feet up aren't even too bad.



Imma go with falls from 6 feet up are bad pretty much always. Unless you are really jumping or something, a fall from 6' could easily be fatal, and really will hurt a lot no matter what.


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## chieftfac

*New Ampheteater, running 5pin DMX in conduit outdoors*

So I'm on cloud 9!!! We are starting work on our new outdoor space, but I have a question about control lines. I've managed to get what I need in the way of power, 400amp 3 phase, and it will be distributed in underground conduit to the lighting positions and the stage area. I'm going to use shoebox dimmers (NSI anyone) on the light poles outside as "maximum flexibility" means I can use them in the theater for increased dimming power. The electrical engineer has asked about hard wiring control lines from location to location (light poles) but I was wondering how well XLR 5 pin connectors play with outdoor locations. Everything will be installed in weather proof boxes with gaskets and such, but being in the south with high relative humidity, I was not sure this was a good choice. I've even seen ants set up housekeeping in supposedly weather proof boxes and I'm sure that wouldn't be good for dependable DMX control. I see maybe 6 to 8 uses per year in this space that would need lighting, so I'm not even sure the extra expense makes sense, other than less cables running through the audience area would make it safer. Cable trough???

Anyone out there have some advice? What are your experiences in the real world?

Edit ...and Ship is on cloud nine as well... Congrats Ship and wife!!!!


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## PeteEngel

*Re: New Ampheteater, running 5pin DMX in conduit outdoors*

You should check and connector out on a regular basis in an outdoor situation. They corrode quicker than standard electrical connectors. Sometimes they will corrode from the inside (around the solder points) and you won't know there is anything wrong until whatever you are controlling starts to react oddly. I would suggest you hard wire to your areas and jump from there. What will give you a manufactured testing point instead of a home run from where ever. It is easier to troubleshoot and replace a 25' to 75' (or whatever) run of DMX than it is to replace a really long cable pulled through conduit. And Cheaper too.


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## derekleffew

*Re: New Ampheteater, running 5pin DMX in conduit outdoors*

Many Las Vegas hotels have panels outside in applicable NEMA enclosures, containing 3pin and 5pin XLR connectors (and BNC and many others including SC and ST fiber), with (usually) no ill results. Of course there's no humidity, and not as many insects. Cable and phone companies have boxes all over the sidewalks with very little weather protection.

Soldering in the field by electrical contractors, even by specialty contractors, should be avoided if at all possible.

If using CAT5+ cabling, do not solder. Use IDC terminals instead. 

As a hedge against failure (and for future expansion), consider a home run of two lines (Main and Backup) to each location. Cable cost is almost negligible, not much more labor, and two CAT5 cables should fit into a 1/2" conduit as easily as one.


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