# Theater student sues Waynesburg College over injury



## jwl868 (Jan 8, 2007)

I happened upon this today. This seems to be as good a place to post it as any:

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07008/752186-100.stm

Joe


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## Van (Jan 8, 2007)

This is a saw, this is your arm going through a saw..... any questions ?


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## drawstuf99 (Jan 8, 2007)

This guy shouldn't use a saw if he says that he doesn't know what he's doing then! What an idiot. It sounds more like a typical "ouch i got my arm chopped off but i dont want to look stupid so i'm going to sue someone and blame it on someone else" case. I don't know if they didn't have good supervision, but he's the nut wanting to use a miter saw "without proper knowledge or supervision."


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## Schniapereli (Jan 8, 2007)

After being on this forum a lot recently I see how stupid and inexperienced I am.

But, after stories like that, I feel a lot smarter.

Hooray!


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## LDtheLD (Jan 8, 2007)

A saw's the kind of thing that if I felt like I didn't know how to do it...then I quite simply would just not attempt it in the first place...
Strange story anyway...here at my school, and I would imagine most others would be like this, we have to sign waivers...I don't think we can sue if we get injured at school...maybe we could, I know nothing about legal issues, but I thought that's what the waivers were for  
Not to mention we have safety training and have to take a test proving we've learned all the safety rules and proper use of equipment before we can work in the shop...


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## SHARYNF (Jan 8, 2007)

The US legal system and also the insurance industry has some odd practices.

Couple of observations:
Waivers are not worth the paper they are printed on if a serious injury happens.
Many times inorder to get the Schools or business insurance company to pay the medical bills you need to sue, what happens is that a lot of insurance companies simply deny a claim until they are sued.
The legal wording in the article looks like and this is just speculation on my part, that there was a general waiver, the insurance company is refusing to cover the medical bills, and the lawyers are filing and wording it as the way to get around the waiver.

With these things they rarely are what they appear to be

Sharyn


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## Schniapereli (Jan 8, 2007)

Another stupid person story:

At the junior high last year, a kid was working with a blow torch, and accidentally passed his arm over the flame burning his little wrist to a crisp. Disregarding instructions to put it under cold water from the shop teacher (also the school 1st aid specialist) he proceeded to peel the burnt skin from his wrist into a nice inch thick slab leaving a complete bracelet of fleshless area where you could see his bones. He continued to show this to his friends who were equally amused, before the teacher found him.

Don't know where they took him, or what happened to his grade. Weren't any law suits, but I thought it was close enough on topic.

Hooray!


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## soundlight (Jan 8, 2007)

Wow. There are some basic rules of shop safety.

1) If you haven't been given adequate training, you shouldn't even be in the shop.

Part of my intro tech class at bucknell (the second and third days of the class) was to go through a comprehensive shop safety course.


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## reggie98 (Jan 11, 2007)

Sounds like neither the shop teacher nor the first aid person, know anything about treating third degree burns. At that point the skin is dead, but it is acting like a barrier to bacteria and contaminents. You never put a third degree burn under water, you wrap in a wet, sterile dressing and proceed to the hospital. The water would make the skin slough off, just like pealing an orange.


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## Chris15 (Jan 12, 2007)

Interesting... the basic rule for burns is running water straight away. 10 min for general burns, 20 min for chemical, radiation and other serious burns, 30 minutes (no more and preferably no less) for bitumen burns. But after cooling the burn (which is what the water does), you should cover the burn with a non adherent (burns) dressing or failing that, aluminium foil, cling wrap or the like. Then prevent infection and minimise shock. Seek medical advice if: burn is deep, a superficial burn is larger than a 20 cent piece (roughly 1" in diameter), the burn involves the airways, face, hands or genitals, you are unsure of the severity of the burn and any other time when you think it appropriate.

Mostly paraphrased from Australian First Aid. Reggie98, I am more than willing to stand corrected, but I do wonder from where you have gotten your information, the source I am using I thought was pretty reliable.


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## tenor_singer (Jan 12, 2007)

Having been unfortunate enough to have third degree burns on my legs (gas + stupidity = tenor running like the human torch), running them under water (I ran mine under our garden hose that was luckily there) does make the skin slough off... mine rolled down my leg like a tube sock with old elastic.


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## reggie98 (Jan 15, 2007)

My source is the various first aid classes I have taken and been certified in. Specifically, third degree burns should never have water run over them.


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## SHARYNF (Jan 15, 2007)

Here in the us US approach is usually to IMMERSE it in the water, NOT to run water on it, the action of the water flow can cause the skin peeling off, During medical treatment they probably will remove the skin but best to have the doctor do that
Sharyn


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## Van (Jan 15, 2007)

tenor_singer said:


> Having been unfortunate enough to have third degree burns on my legs (gas + stupidity = tenor running like the human torch), running them under water (I ran mine under our garden hose that was luckily there) does make the skin slough off... mine rolled down my leg like a tube sock with old elastic.


 
Let me just say, "Ouch !" oh and "YUCK". In my time as a first responder Burns were always the worst, Hated dealing with them, I hate getting them, I can deal with almost everything besides burns.
We're way off topic here now.


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## celtictechie (Jan 15, 2007)

Damm that sucks 

But i hate to tell that what they the teacher for. 
I am sorry but if your a student and not getting paid for your time don't use anything remotely dangerous to you of others without the teacher near you. They don't to hover but a max for a teacher to be away is 10 feet no more. 

James


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## tdbatman (Jan 16, 2007)

Ouch! I have to say this is one of my worst nightmares...and I mean that literally...I have nightmares of students getting hurt.
I teach high school students and I give them safety instructions until I'm blue in the face and they STILL do stupid stuff.
And I also know...when actors are forced to do tech stuff and they obviously hate it...they do a crappy job and pay very little attention.
Not that I don't like actors...but they're actors.


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## reggie98 (Jan 16, 2007)

Every power tool booklet has at least one page of safety instructions. If a person is unfamiliar with the tool, they should be "encouraged" to read it. Common sense for safety around tools with rotating parts is no long sleeves, gloves or loose clothing. Looking cool, or emulating what one might observe being done at Orange County Choppers isn't necessarily safe. The director failed to enforce that very basic rule.

Van: I take personal offense at your little joke, "This is your hand going through a saw..." A very un-professional comment.


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## punktech (Jan 16, 2007)

weeeelllll...i am so glad to know that my embedded fear/respect/cautiousness of saws is now reinforced. 

i now also see why exactly my theatre dept. is organized based upon experience. the longer you're there, the more trust you accumulate. and until your skills are proven you always have either a teacher, or a more experienced student watching what you're doing and stopping you if they see something incorrect. we have a policy that if you see someone doing something you feel is unsafe to always either stop the person, or go to the AME, ME, ATD, or TD immediately and get him or her on the case.

and to everyone who is reading this: IF YOU DO NOT FEEL SAFE OR CAPABLE OF DOING A JOB, _*DON'T DO IT*_, IT WILL END IN YOU AND/OR SOMEONE ELSE GETTING HURT.


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## celtictechie (Jan 16, 2007)

you are right in everything.


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## Van (Jan 16, 2007)

reggie98 said:


> Every power tool booklet has at least one page of safety instructions. If a person is unfamiliar with the tool, they should be "encouraged" to read it. Common sense for safety around tools with rotating parts is no long sleeves, gloves or loose clothing. Looking cool, or emulating what one might observe being done at Orange County Choppers isn't necessarily safe. The director failed to enforce that very basic rule.
> 
> Van: I take personal offense at your little joke, "This is your hand going through a saw..." A very un-professional comment.


 

Take all the offense you want. If someone is stupid enough to operate a saw when they don't know what they were doing then a mishap is going to happen. I for one have been a Profeesional Theatrical technician for 25+ years and I have all ten fingers, both eyes and I can still hear. Personal safety in the shop is like that old saying, " charity begins at home." Safety begins with knowing your limitations. From the posting and the news article you cannot begin to make a judgment that the "director" was at fault, < why the director would be in the shop is a mystery to me, but maybe you mispoke, typical highschool mistake. See in the real world a t.d. or shop foreman run the shop. a Director blocks things.> From The posting and the news article you can only infer that the kid was running a saw without proper training and got hurt. Now if someone said to this kid ," you, go cut a bunch of wood." and the kid said< " I don't know how" and the shop foreman said ," Do it anyway." then the guy should be strung up. If, however, as I suspect, the kid said," Oh sure I can do that." and tried to do it without the proper training then, well the kids to blame. 
Read what Punktech said that's the best advice I can think of If you don't know what your'e doing don't do it. 

Oh and BTW The mark of true professional humor in any feild tends to be a rather morbid treatment of any accident that occurs in that feild. Shocking but true. 
If your'e that easily offended on a personal level then I suggest you don't watch tv listen to the radio or go to movies, Hell while your at it I'd quit theatre, if that's what you do, You might run across something offensive in there too.


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## TechieGeek (Jan 26, 2007)

ok. wow. thats all i have to say on that article. and on the burn subject i had a blonde moment and grabbed a hot shutter. let's just say i didn't have use of those fingers for about 2-3 weeks. that was fun... not! it was more of a pain in the ass than anything. it was my own stupidity that got me burned so i take responsability for it. i've also had two gashes down the palm of hand from handling a peice of 3/4 inch plywood with a numatic staple in it. i dropped the board and the staple cut my hand. oh, and never grab a hot soddering iron. it's not fun. i've burned so much that it doesn't even phase me anymore. that's not good.


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## Schniapereli (Jan 26, 2007)

Up in our loft above the seating of the auditorium, there are lots of metal bars, and boards to climb over. It is traditional that new techs are not informed of the pipes with boiling water going through them. At our school, a lot of the school is controlled by the auditorium. All of the circuit brakers are there, a lot of the air conditioning goes through there. This is because our school has tunnels under it, where they keep the boiler, etc. and we think that a lot may be under the auditorium. The janitor's office is also under our booth, and where the seating goes ___/ up on more of an incline.
So, there are some really really hot pipes coming straight from the boiler room, and heading to the cafeteria and the rest of the school. I leaned on them a few times, and my hands hurt for a while. One tech first attempted to swing on it, to get up to a higher level. One pipe is over a trapdoor with a ladder, and my friend sometimes burns his head while coming up, or burns his hands while trying to grab it to help him up. Originaly when the school was new, it has insulation around it, but this has worn down over 50 years, to the point were it is just a 4 inch metal burning pipe.

I also was working on a Src4 PAR up in the loft (we also have a batten there) when my cheap 4 dollar gloves started smoking and burning through melting the gloves. That was back when I had cloth gloves with the rubber hob knobs for better grip. These gloves are now just reserved for using the fly system.


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## Van (Jan 26, 2007)

Chris15 said:


> Interesting... the basic rule for burns is running water straight away. 10 min for general burns, 20 min for chemical, radiation and other serious burns, 30 minutes (no more and preferably no less) for bitumen burns. But after cooling the burn (which is what the water does), you should cover the burn with a non adherent (burns) dressing or failing that, aluminium foil, cling wrap or the like. Then prevent infection and minimise shock. Seek medical advice if: burn is deep, a superficial burn is larger than a 20 cent piece (roughly 1" in diameter), the burn involves the airways, face, hands or genitals, you are unsure of the severity of the burn and any other time when you think it appropriate.
> 
> Mostly paraphrased from Australian First Aid. Reggie98, I am more than willing to stand corrected, but I do wonder from where you have gotten your information, the source I am using I thought was pretty reliable.


 

Chris here's a link to the Mayo clinics firstaid site, the section dealing with burns
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/first-aid-burns/FA00022

Reggie98 is correct in that a 3rd degree burn should never be immersed or held under running water, but wrapped in cool damp bandages and trnasportation to a hospital should be as immediate as possible. One of the odd things about 3rd degree burns is, typically they don't hurt. the area around the 3rd degree will be incredibly painfull as it will usually be suffering from second and first degree burns. Since 3rd degree burns are usually accompanied by many other life threating issues you normally don't have to deal with them as a regular civilian.


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## LDtheLD (Jan 27, 2007)

The worst injury I've gotten to date in my theatrical ventures...this is just a great story...the worst injury I've gotten has not been sawing an extremity off, or getting a staple driven into myself, or getting burned on a light...no, the WORST injury was during my costume practicum. I was carrying a huge and heavy pile of costumes up some stairs, and started to drop them, and while attempting to stop them from falling, I got stabbed in the knuckle with a hanger. It bled for 20 minutes, they had to get out the first aid kit and treat me. My worst injury is from a hanger. 
(I'm no good at all in the costume shop.)


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## TechieGeek (Jan 27, 2007)

LDtheLD said:


> The worst injury I've gotten to date in my theatrical ventures...this is just a great story...the worst injury I've gotten has not been sawing an extremity off, or getting a staple driven into myself, or getting burned on a light...no, the WORST injury was during my costume practicum. I was carrying a huge and heavy pile of costumes up some stairs, and started to drop them, and while attempting to stop them from falling, I got stabbed in the knuckle with a hanger. It bled for 20 minutes, they had to get out the first aid kit and treat me. My worst injury is from a hanger.
> (I'm no good at all in the costume shop.)



i'm sorry to hear that your worst tech injury was from costuming. and yet i can't help but laugh. i'm sorry, i know i shouldn't be laughing but the main reason it auditioned to get into my high school was for the costume design and construction classes. i can wear down a top quality sewing machine in two years. i'm the best seamstress in my school. just becareful of the iron when you are using it. don't let it fall on top of your hand. it hurts quite a bit. and don't get blood on the fabric.


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## LDtheLD (Jan 27, 2007)

TechieGeek said:


> i'm sorry to hear that your worst tech injury was from costuming. and yet i can't help but laugh.


Don't worry, I laugh at myself over that incident! Now that I've completed my costume practicum, I'm just going to stay out of the costume shop from now on, so I don't further injure myself or others.


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## lightbyfire (Jan 27, 2007)

I have to say that in the sheer number of incidents I have had far more injuries in the costume shop than doing any other tech work. From burns (irons, steamers) to punctures (also a hanger, and many needles) to even a real nice cut from the edge of a sewing machine table. The costume shop is dangerous.


I have however had worse injuries elsewhere, just not as many.


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## avkid (Jan 27, 2007)

I can't remember how many times I have stapled my finger with the staple gun.


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## Chris15 (Jan 28, 2007)

Van said:


> Chris here's a link to the Mayo clinics firstaid site, the section dealing with burns
> http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/first-aid-burns/FA00022
> 
> Reggie98 is correct in that a 3rd degree burn should never be immersed or held under running water, but wrapped in cool damp bandages and trnasportation to a hospital should be as immediate as possible. One of the odd things about 3rd degree burns is, typically they don't hurt. the area around the 3rd degree will be incredibly painfull as it will usually be suffering from second and first degree burns. Since 3rd degree burns are usually accompanied by many other life threating issues you normally don't have to deal with them as a regular civilian.



Sorry I have not gotten back to this as quickly as I normally would, been up to other things. I am more than willing to recognise that damp bandages are the way to go. Now bear with me for a moment, one of the things my first aid has taught me (apart from cold running water) is that you never put anything on a burn (Or try and remove anything from it either), so the mere idea of applying a bandage, damp or otherwise, seems to contravene what I have been taught. Now there is the very real possibility that the first aid we get taught and certified in down here is not the same as first aid in the states, heck until recently they could not even agree what the right number of breaths and compressions for CPR was until about a year ago, and that was just the various organisations down here!

OK, so let's move on from how to treat a third degree burn. How do I tell in about 2 seconds or less whether I am looking at a second degree burn and hence apply cold water or whether I am looking at a third degree burn and so apply damp bandages? Unless first aiders have different roles up there (again entirely possible), but down here, the role is to stop injuries worsening until such time as medical professionals arrive. Now something very minor can be the exception, say a bit of antiseptic and an adhesive dressing over a minor graze, but on the whole, you are there to start controlling injuries and stop them from worsening until people who know better what they are doing arrive. Now to me, without a university degree in medicine, can't tell on sight the difference between the different degrees of burn, so what quick and easy hints can we offer so that I can tell whether to apply cold water or damp bandages? Because in the absence of that, can we not see why my instinct would be to follow the basic rule of cold running water?

Hope that makes sense and apologies if I have offended anyone.


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## Van (Jan 28, 2007)

One of the majoe ways you'll be able to tell the difference is the manner in which the burns were received, in addition to visual examination of th burn. Third degree burns usually come in 2 different flavors. < ickk and double ick.> The first type typically from direct exposure to intense heat or exposure to actual flame. These burns will be black just like an overcooked shrimp on the barbie < sp?> Ok more like an over cooked piece of pork with the skin still on. There might be some moisture oozing from between the cracks in the charred flesh but typically it's been seared, just like a good steak, to seal in the juices. < anyone else detecting a theme here ?> Remeber 3rd degree burns affect not only the epidermis, the outer most layer of skin, but also the dermis, fat and underlying muscle tissues. They can even go as far as the bone itself, although how you would do that, and not be dead, other than getting your arm stuck in a kiln for 5 minutes I don't know. 
The other type of third degree burn is an almost complete polar opposite. Such burns are typically received from steam,<mmmm steamed shrimp>. The second type of third degree burn is typified by a white-ish chalky dry appearence. Not red, no blisters, just a dry chalky appearence, sort of like frostbite, before necrosis has set in < I couldn't remember how to spell gangreen.> In almost all cases third degree burns will be surrounded by 1st and second degree burns, but as in all cases of first aid your treatment of the situation must address the most serious of injuries first. therefore no running water, no submersion, no ice. A moist clean dressing such as gauze or a muslin bandage. under no circumstances wrap a burn in cotton balls, flannel etc. the fibers will adhere to the skin and create a greater risk for infection down the line. 


how to judge a third degree burn in under 2 seconds ? Hmm well if the above descriptions don't work, and the person is concious, you could touch it and ask them if they feel it. 3rd degree burns destroy the nerves beneath the skin and are, in-fact, themselves, painless. The difficulty with this method however is that A. you are possible introducing bacteria into the wounded area by placing your dirty grubby paws on it. B. you could be further injuring the area by damaging the already damaged tissues. < try poking your finger into an over done steak and watch how the flesh breaks up> and C. As stated before 3rd degree burns are most often surrounded by a larger area of 1st and 2nd degree burns so manipulating the 3rd degree burn area is going to transfer skin motion to the surrounding areas thus causing further pain to those areas, which the subject will undoubtedly not be able to distinguish from pain comming directly from the 3rd degree burned area. < whew !> 

In summation; Unless you're ablsolutely sure treat any burn as one step up in the scale. Read that link I provided earlier. If clothing or covering if still smoldering around the sight of a burn by all means extinguish it remove as much as neccessary but no more. As with all first aid your first mission is to remove immediate threat ie take the person from the burning car before removing the splinter in thier finger. But do not under any circumstances move a person if it is not absolutely necessary leave that up to proffessionals. 
Hope that helps.

Note to everyone.  Don't take everything I say on this subject for Gospel. Go out and learn it for yourself. Getting basic first aid certification is easy, and fun. going further with it is optional. I spent five years in Search and Rescue, it was challenging rewarding, heartbreaking, and gut-wrenching. Ultimately I decided I just didn't have the stomach for being an EMT, but I'm glad I got the training. I haven't had to use it that often < thank God> but when I have needed to it was invaluable.


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## Chris15 (Jan 29, 2007)

Thankyou Van.

So what we are saying it that a third degree will be big enough and ugly enough that it will be as apparent as if it were holding up a big sign. Good to know, hope I never have to use it.

Gotta love it when I hold a first aid certificate and yet find that bits get left out... Interestingly the site you referred me to says don't immerse in cold water to prevent shock, whereas what was said earlier here was that basically the burnt tissue (skin etc.) will fall off.

Now I hope that it is safe to assume this is the same elsewhere, but if you ring for an ambulance here, the operator will normally be able to assist you in providing treatment until such time as the ambulance arrives, so if you have a situation, be it a burn or anything else which you think is serious, call the ambulance and whilst doing so, ask them what to do to keep the casualty in the best condition until they can get there and take over. After all they do it day in, day out and even if the operator is not medically skilled, mostly places like that have trained senior officers in charge, as a Chief Inspector (probably somewhere about Lieutenant or Captain) will have control of the police radio room.


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