# Where to Purchase new large CRTs?



## sfxGuy (May 9, 2013)

Hi guys!

I've been charged with setting up conductor monitors for actors to see conducting on stage. We don't have a pit at the theater.

I know of all the warnings regarding lag when using LCDs. Can I avoid the lag? If not, where can I get 32-34" CRTs? Nobody seems to sell them anymore.

Thanks!


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## DrPinto (May 9, 2013)

Why would actors need to see a conductor? Usually you set up a monitor so the conductor can see the actors.

It's very difficult for actors to see a monitor with stage lights on.


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## rochem (May 9, 2013)

DrPinto said:


> Why would actors need to see a conductor? Usually you set up a monitor so the conductor can see the actors.
> 
> It's very difficult for actors to see a monitor with stage lights on.



Almost every large-scale musical makes use of conductor monitors for the cast. Obviously they're important for offstage singing locations, but even onstage, it's standard to hang conductor monitors on the balcony rail or elsewhere to the sides of the house so that the actors can see the conductor, especially if the band is upstage of the cast or in a separate room. Even when the conductor is in the pit, no one likes to see actors staring down into the pit for their cue. Not usually necessary for smaller-scale shows but it's indispensable for larger houses or productions.


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## rochem (May 9, 2013)

sfxGuy said:


> Hi guys!
> 
> I've been charged with setting up conductor monitors for actors to see conducting on stage. We don't have a pit at the theater.
> 
> ...



I can't help you out with where to source CRTs, but I know there are LCDs out there that can do the job. Masque does send out LCDs to Broadway that go on the balcony rails, and they have virtually no lag. However, I'm not sure if these are just really low lag TVs or if the entire camera signal is kept digital. I keep meaning to call and ask, but it's never been important enough. If you have a friend at one of the NY sound shops, it might be worth calling them to see what they're using.


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## techieman33 (May 9, 2013)

rochem said:


> I can't help you out with where to source CRTs, but I know there are LCDs out there that can do the job. Masque does send out LCDs to Broadway that go on the balcony rails, and they have virtually no lag. However, I'm not sure if these are just really low lag TVs or if the entire camera signal is kept digital. I keep meaning to call and ask, but it's never been important enough. If you have a friend at one of the NY sound shops, it might be worth calling them to see what they're using.



Yeah I've been seeing more and more flat panels out on tour, not positive it's LCD, it may be something else.


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## Chris15 (May 9, 2013)

The SOH's testing suggested that SDI in combination with OLED panels can provide acceptably low latency. As always, performance between manufacturers may vary...


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## DrPinto (May 9, 2013)

rochem said:


> Almost every large-scale musical makes use of conductor monitors for the cast. Obviously they're important for offstage singing locations, but even onstage, it's standard to hang conductor monitors on the balcony rail or elsewhere to the sides of the house so that the actors can see the conductor, especially if the band is upstage of the cast or in a separate room. Even when the conductor is in the pit, no one likes to see actors staring down into the pit for their cue. Not usually necessary for smaller-scale shows but it's indispensable for larger houses or productions.



You cant say that almost every large-scale musical uses conductor monitors for the cast. I've never seen monitors pointed at the actors to see the conductor at any theater production, professional or amateur, although most productions I've seen and have been involved with had auditoriums with an orchestra pit. I guess it depends on the chain of command. We tend to go: actor takes cue from stage manager, conductor takes cue from actor, orchestra takes cue from conductor. I guess it depends on how a show is run and where the orchestra is located.

I'm not a big fan of the old CRT monitors. Then tend to be very top heavy and can easily tip over on a cart unless properly secured. If you want to go that route, you may have luck picking up some used ones cheap at a local government surplus sale or come across something on publicsurplus.com.


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## DuckJordan (May 9, 2013)

Every musical tour that has come through our road house has had conductor monitors on stage, as well as off. I'm talking, shrek, billy elliot, adams family. Anything that requires an ensemble. I've only seen old studio monitors in the wings the small 4-10" screens and Flat panel (most were LCD) on stage. they generally cable about 100' so lag should be problem but I've never noticed any.


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## Chris15 (May 9, 2013)

Let's not get hot headed about this now...

Generally in a musical, the conductor controls the musical timing, and NOT the cast. Hence the cast need to see that baton move, and vision systems are frequently used to achieve this.

And to be clear, the latency problem is NOTHING to do with the length of cable - 100m of coax cable is only about 500ns delay. The problem is in the processing circuitry in the LCD to convert the analog incoming composite video into digital data that can be displayed as pixels. In the 99.99% of LCD uses that aren't conductor cams etc, a few ms of delay does not matter and so manufacturers are generally speaking lazy about how well they code their systems to minimse delay. Unfortunately, for a conductor cam, a few ms is unacceptable latency...


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## DrPinto (May 9, 2013)

Nope. Not hot headed. Just never saw monitors used like this before. I always thought the conductor was cued by the actor's actions. You learn something new every day.


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## Chris15 (May 9, 2013)

Oh and that's not to say that the conductor may not take cues from the cast's blocking (or the SM), just that when the cast sing, they should do so in time to the orchestra who are (we hope) in time with the conductor.


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## derekleffew (May 10, 2013)

DrPinto said:


> ... I always thought the conductor was cued by the actor's actions. ...


I once heard a very good Musical Director/Conductor tell a cast, "It's impossible for me and my twenty musicians to follow each of the twenty of you, therefore, all of you MUST follow all of me." 

It makes perfect sense: the orchestra members are following the conductor; the performers voices are simply additional musical instruments. All must follow a single entity. Once the initial "go" is given (by the stage manager), the conductor controls the tempo and timing, lest a train wreck occur. He ain't just standing there waving that stick around as a symbolic or honorary position.
.


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## sfxGuy (May 10, 2013)

Chris15 said:


> Let's not get hot headed about this now...
> 
> Generally in a musical, the conductor controls the musical timing, and NOT the cast. Hence the cast need to see that baton move, and vision systems are frequently used to achieve this.
> 
> And to be clear, the latency problem is NOTHING to do with the length of cable - 100m of coax cable is only about 500ns delay. The problem is in the processing circuitry in the LCD to convert the analog incoming composite video into digital data that can be displayed as pixels. In the 99.99% of LCD uses that aren't conductor cams etc, a few ms of delay does not matter and so manufacturers are generally speaking lazy about how well they code their systems to minimse delay. Unfortunately, for a conductor cam, a few ms is unacceptable latency...



Thanks, Chris15. This is my understanding too... As I am a high school student, I have yet to make friends with anyone in the NYC Pro shops yet. But here's my thinking... Buy a consumer grade digital camcorder with decent low light sensitivity and HDMI out. Run the HDMI to a distro/splitter and out to cheap flat screens, using line extenders where necessary (over 50'). Would this prevent latency issues? Am I smoking crack? This community theater I work with has no budget. But the actors still need to see the conductor... I called Masque for giggles but they just wanted to sell me a system not tell me how it works. They're in business to make money after all.

Anyone have any thoughts?

Thanks!


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## museav (May 11, 2013)

sfxGuy said:


> Thanks, Chris15. This is my understanding too... As I am a high school student, I have yet to make friends with anyone in the NYC Pro shops yet. But here's my thinking... Buy a consumer grade digital camcorder with decent low light sensitivity and HDMI out. Run the HDMI to a distro/splitter and out to cheap flat screens, using line extenders where necessary (over 50'). Would this prevent latency issues? Am I smoking crack? This community theater I work with has no budget. But the actors still need to see the conductor... I called Masque for giggles but they just wanted to sell me a system not tell me how it works. They're in business to make money after all.


It basically comes down to how much processing is performed in the camera for the output involved and the latency that represents. The how much processing is performed by any other devices in the signal path and their latency and finally, the processing in the display and that related latency. Those all add together for the total latency seen in the displayed image.

As an example, if the camera needs to apply greater processing for a particular output format, resolution, scan/refresh rate, etc. then that signal may inherently have greater latency. Similar for the display, if it has to convert and/or scale the incoming signal then it may incur greater latency. And both may differ from one product model to another.

Another factor can be format, most CRTs were 4:3 format while most LCD flat panels are 16:9. That can have several implications. For one, you may need a larger diagonal size flat screen to get the same image height that you did with a CRT monitor. A 33" or 34", 4:3 image is about 20" high, which I believe would require an almost 41" diagonal 16:9 display for the same image height. Another factor is that if you have to convert formats (4:3 pillarboxed in 16:9 or 16:9 letterboxed in 4:3) either at the camera or at the display without a direct pixel-to-pixel mapping then that would be likely to cause additional latency or lag.

Note that display response time is different than the latency. How fast the actual display can react can be a factor and OLED displays often have faster response times that LED/LCD or plasma displays, however the response time does not reflect the processing latency that may also be involved. But sending a 1080p signal to a 1080p native display with the internal processing turned off can reduce the latency on that end and the response time becomes more of a controlling factor.


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## sfxGuy (May 11, 2013)

museav said:


> It basically comes down to how much processing is performed in the camera for the output involved and the latency that represents. The how much processing is performed by any other devices in the signal path and their latency and finally, the processing in the display and that related latency. Those all add together for the total latency seen in the displayed image.
> 
> As an example, if the camera needs to apply greater processing for a particular output format, resolution, scan/refresh rate, etc. then that signal may inherently have greater latency. Similar for the display, if it has to convert and/or scale the incoming signal then it may incur greater latency. And both may differ from one product model to another.
> 
> ...



Thanks, Brad. In other words, it's completely hit or miss and entirely variable from product to product. I thought the digital world was supposed to make our lives better and easier? I'm missing the analog world and I'm only 17. Argh!


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