# Wire House Lights directly into dimmer rack



## covenantseth (Jan 18, 2013)

Hello everyone, This is my first post and I am super excited about this forum; I have just discovered it.

I didn't see another forum that specifically answered this question but I need some help.

I am putting together a lighting/video and sound system for a church's new sanctuary. They want their lights to be dimmable. I am picking out the fixtures and equipment for this project and have a few questions. I have never put together a system that included the house lights. We are looking at putting in 25 recessed lights that will dim. Now as far as wiring is concerned. Can you wire a lighting fixture into a 3 prong Edison plug? 

So essentially the house lights would go like this (light)---(light)---(light)---(light)---(light)----(edison plug)--->(dimmer rack)

I have looked into the higher end Lephrchan dimmers but am wanting to go cheaper. Is it alright to do this? Is that up to electrical code? Does that make sense?

Also, what is a typical common company that manufactures a 200-300w bare bones recessed incandescant fixture? Thanks your patience with my lack of experience!


----------



## Footer (Jan 18, 2013)

Yes, you can do this with one big caveat. The second you introduce any type pigtail with a plug, you now have a "transfer switch/road disconnect panel". In order to be up to code, in between the load and the plug you need to have a breaker that is rated for the wiring that is in the walls. This is to protect the building wiring. Now, if you had a dimmer pack that had a terminal strip and you hard wire to it without any type of disconnect, you can forgo the breaker as long as the wiring is rated to the breaker on the dimmer pack. The same is also true if you are going to hard wire "circuits" into conduit and then put in a group of pigtails connecting to the dimmer rack.


----------



## Les (Jan 18, 2013)

I personally would not go cheaper than Leprecon, NSI/Leviton, etc. Especially for houselights -- that system needs to be very reliable (life safety) and will be used on a constant/continuous basis. 

As far as lighting manufacturers go, take a look at Cooper, Prescolite, Lithonia, etc. You mention wanting to do recessed lighting - keep in mind that you can also buy hanging pendant downlights if ceiling height allows it.

Cooper H2320 Incandescent Pendant Mount Downlight:


----------



## covenantseth (Jan 18, 2013)

Thanks for the replies!

A few things:

1. Do you have some examples that show these dimmers with terminal strips?

2. If I went with a Leprechan for example, does the final wire from the light get terminated into each channel module?

3. What am I looking at price wise for an incandescent recessed light that is about 200-300w?

I am totally new to wiring house lights into a architectural dimmer and not a normal stage dimmer. . . Here is a picture of the sanctuary. I'm just a little unsure of how to setup the dimming and need help.


----------



## Les (Jan 18, 2013)

Yeah, based on the drawing, it appears that recessed lighting is a better fit. I know things may not be to scale, but the ceiling height appears to be relatively low. Are you sure you need 200-300w? Those lamps are getting somewhat difficult to find, and it won't get any easier moving forward. I believe the 300w R40 is still available as a Stage & Studio lamp - for the time being, at least. Make sure and spec commercial grade lighting, and not residential. 

As far as prices go, you'd probably have to contact a local electrical parts house. I imagine all of them will be Cooper dealers, but compare the prices among the others like Prescolite, Lithonia, etc (all of which are popular brands for architectural/commercial lighting). It's difficult to find accurate "street" prices online when it comes to commercial lighting. Avoid quoting through big box stores - they will have to special order commercial lighting, and they mark-up quite a bit for that.

Keep in mind that all permanent wiring must be encased in metallic conduit, and that it will need to be installed by an electrician who is licensed for commercial work.


----------



## covenantseth (Jan 18, 2013)

The ceiling is 14ft high. The room is 52x52. What would you suggest for a recessed fixture if I am putting in 25 of them? Do you think I need more power or less?


----------



## Les (Jan 18, 2013)

covenantseth said:


> The ceiling is 14ft high. The room is 52x52. What would you suggest for a recessed fixture if I am putting in 25 of them? Do you think I need more power or less?



I feel like you could get away with less (wattage), but it depends on the spacing of the fixtures, their coverage/beam angle, the footcandles needed (usually measured 3' above floor level), etc. 

It might not hurt to contact a commercial lighting designer. Generally, the lighting for these spaces is approached in a manner of determining lighting levels needed --> then determining the fixture (based on photometrics) and how they should be spaced, what wattage they should be lamped at, etc. I know that Lithonia and Cooper have provided interactive templates for this on their website, but I'm not sure if they still do.


----------



## covenantseth (Jan 18, 2013)

Fixtures are 8' 8" apart from eachother.

The lighting designer wanted about $2k for the lighting design


----------



## covenantseth (Jan 18, 2013)

What is a good range for lighting levels for a church sanctuary? How many footcandles?


----------



## derekleffew (Jan 19, 2013)

covenantseth said:


> ...The lighting designer wanted about $2k for the lighting design




covenantseth said:


> What is a good range for lighting levels for a church sanctuary? How many footcandles?


These are the kind of questions the $2k lighting designer already knows the answers to. Building codes state different levels of illumination for different purposes. Aesthetically, 2700K light may be more desirable than 5600, but not if a low CRI. You may not be allowed to install 300W incandescent lamps, as a greater efficacy may be required in your jurisdiction. Additionally, in a commercial building, particularly a place of public assembly, you'll need a licensed electrical contractor to perform the work, a permit application for the work to be performed, and an inspection by the AHJ. Emergency / egress lighting must be considered, as well as possibly an architectural lighting control system. You probably don't want the custodian to have to know how to turn on the lightboard in order to turn on the houselight s to vacuum the auditorium. Likewise, wall switch es / entry station s inside each door might be desirable/required, but you don't want an audience member turning on the houselights in the middle of a performance. The houselights might want/need to be fed from a different electrical service than the stage dimmers. 

Sorry for more questions than answers. Look at the listed above manufacturers' websites for information on their architectural systems. Keep asking questions; we'll keep providing non-answers.
.


----------



## covenantseth (Jan 19, 2013)

As of now I believe we will be running the house production lights on a separate system from the functional house lights (i.e. janitor vacuuming). Initially we were thinking of running a master/slave setup with the dimmers and a wall mount button plate.

The electrician on the job will be wiring and installing all of the lights as well as taking care of any emergency lighting installation, permits ect.

From the Cooper template system they have on their site, the fixtures that I had looked at had a rating of 28 footcandles in the whole room.

Thanks for your time and expertize


----------



## derekleffew (Jan 19, 2013)

covenantseth said:


> ...Thanks for your time and expertize


You're (more than) welcome.

However, as much as we like to offer assistance and opinions, we also have a saying around here:
_*Especially* concerning rigging, electrical, and life-safety issues,_ 
When in doubt, *always* consult a qualified professional, in person. ​Teh Internet is NO place to learn how to fly people, wire up a panel, or do your own pyro (among many other things).
Perhaps chausman can offer his years of experience and knowledge. He's local to you, and would probably come over and advise if you buy him lunch or a sixpack. 
.


----------



## Chris15 (Jan 19, 2013)

derekleffew said:


> Perhaps chausman can offer his years of experience and knowledge. He's local to you, and would probably come over and advise if you buy him lunch or a sixpack.



Controlbooth of course does not condone the supply of alcohol to persons not of legal age in the relevant jurisdiction...


----------



## derekleffew (Jan 19, 2013)

Who said anything about alcohol? I meant Chase might get six free dimmers.


----------



## BillConnerFASTC (Jan 19, 2013)

Scattered thoughts and probably too much but take these comment for what they are worth.

With a 14' ceiling and lights on a basic 10 X 10 ft grid, you will have a lot of glare (or a lot of dark spots band not very even lighting) no matter what fixture you use. I use 60 degrees as a cut off and I think you'll see quickly that 10' apart, there will be dark areas between 60 degree down lights.

You might be able to purchase an architectural dimmer, that would accept a signal (DMX for instance) from your control system, for less than you would spend wiring them to a portable dimmer.

As has been pointed out you may have energy codes that are very tough to meet with good quartz lighting.

You asked about levels and there is a lot of opinion and judgement involved. I use to aim for 25 fc, based on IES, but I find no one complains in a theatre with 10-15 fc, and once came into an existing in use space and found less than 1 fc under the balcony, and no one knew it was too little. I'm sure some folks could not read their program, but they didn't care I guess. Will the room only for worship or also spaghetti suppers and meetings and such, which require much higher levels?

And last, we have moved to almost all LED house lights, but you don't have a high cost to re-lamp quartz (i.e.: a 30-40 ft high unit over fixed seats on tiered flooring is hard to get to; a flat floor and 14' is not so hard) but you do reduce the amount of wiring significantly and omit the dimmers, just running a data line to each unit (and there are even wireless fixtures - but pricier). Also electricity and cooling costs are reduced but that seldom goes far - it’s unfortunately about initial cost, and churches have cash flow and can upgrade/change later.

I'm concerned by egress and emergency. We generally use the regular house lights for emergency with a branch circuit transfer panel (ELTS) but that would not be allowed with "cord and plug connected" fixtures (or shouldn't be - never know what a local official will allow).

You have a number of challenges and your approach of solving one challenge at a time and not doing it in a big picture does not always lead to the best value design.

Good luck!


----------



## JD (Jan 19, 2013)

You sure you want to go with incandescent lighting? There is a lot of pressure to make incandescent a thing of the past. To do a new install, I would opt for some of the LED solutions out there. We just got done converting about 30k of incandescent house lighting over to LED in my church. 2700 is a must as far as color in a church. The results are impressive, and our wattage draw is down over 85%. Dimming curve is also impressive. Yes, they cut out at about 5% or less, but smooth above that number. Stick with major brands and try before you buy. Not all LEDs are created equal.


----------



## covenantseth (Jan 19, 2013)

JD said:


> You sure you want to go with incandescent lighting? There is a lot of pressure to make incandescent a thing of the past. To do a new install, I would opt for some of the LED solutions out there. We just got done converting about 30k of incandescent house lighting over to LED in my church. 2700 is a must as far as color in a church. The results are impressive, and our wattage draw is down over 85%. Dimming curve is also impressive. Yes, they cut out at about 5% or less, but smooth above that number. Stick with major brands and try before you buy. Not all LEDs are created equal.



I was originally going to go with the variable white LED fixtures for the whole sanctuary but the fixtures are just to stinking expensive. That way we could have avoided the house lights dimmer and just wire all of the boxes and DMX to all the fixtures.

Other than Incandescent what would you go with? Compact flash doesn't dim as well from what I hear, can be more expensive and LED is really expensive as well. I have about a $13,000 budget for house lights and very basic stage lights. The electricians will be doing the install of permanant fixtures as well as the running of conduit and wiring and such.

I have to wait till monday until this other lighting design place opens, but I would hate to have to pay $2000 for a consulting fee for a general 52x52 foot room house lighting design. . . is that cheap of me?

Here is what I had for breakdown of the basics for the stage and house lights. This would possibly be with the functional house lights separate (ie,big florescent fixtures for vacuuming and such) 



style="width: 557px"
|- 
| style="height: 17px; width: 321px" | IH-S8C/IH-S8W (Cylinder Light)
| align="right" style="width: 71px" | $218.75
| align="right" style="width: 67px" | 25
| align="right" style="width: 99px" | $5,468.75
|- 
| style="height: 23px" |
Leprecon
Litescape LWD-2400
| align="right" | $3,800
| align="right" | 1
| align="right" | $3,800
|- 
| style="height: 20px" | American DJ Opti
Par
P
ETL
575W
| align="right" | $119.99
| align="right" | 6
| align="right" | $719.94
|- 
| style="height: 20px" |
Elation
Opti Tri
Par
Tri-Color
| align="right" | 399.99
| align="right" | 6
| align="right" | 2399.94
|- 
| style="height: 20px" | American DJ DP-DMX20L 4-Channel
Dimmer

| align="right" | $199.99
| align="right" | 2
| align="right" | $399.98
|-


----------



## chausman (Jan 19, 2013)

RickR may be a better local person to contact.


----------



## BillConnerFASTC (Jan 19, 2013)

With your budget of $13,000 for a lighting system don't spend 15% on design fees. But in the end your budget is just too small and unrealistic. (Well, if the consultant can convince your management to spend 2 to 3 or more times what is budgeted, then they're worth it.)


----------



## JD (Jan 19, 2013)

covenantseth said:


> I was originally going to go with the variable white LED fixtures for the whole sanctuary but the fixtures are just to stinking expensive. That way we could have avoided the house lights dimmer and just wire all of the boxes and DMX to all the fixtures.
> 
> Other than Incandescent what would you go with? Compact flash doesn't dim as well from what I hear, can be more expensive and LED is really expensive as well. I have about a $13,000 budget for house lights and very basic stage lights. The electricians will be doing the install of permanant fixtures as well as the running of conduit and wiring and such.



Actually, we went with direct replacement (screw in) LED lamps in the old incandescent fixtures. All of our 95 watt PAR38s were changed to 17 watt LED (~$38), all the 75 watt A style lamps were changed to 12.5w LED (~$23), all the 75 watt R30's got changed to 13w LED (~$29). Over 100 lamps were changed out in phase 1 resulting in a massive reduction in house light energy. As the PAR38s were at 40 foot height, the savings in labor over the expected 50,000 hour life should also be massive. (To say nothing of not having to look at burned out bulbs for years until you can justify another re-lamping.)

Another advantage is I could now free up about ten 3.6kw dimmers and use them for something else, although I haven't gotten around to it yet.


----------



## epimetheus (Jan 19, 2013)

JD said:


> You sure you want to go with incandescent lighting? There is a lot of pressure to make incandescent a thing of the past. To do a new install, I would opt for some of the LED solutions out there. We just got done converting about 30k of incandescent house lighting over to LED in my church. 2700 is a must as far as color in a church. The results are impressive, and our wattage draw is down over 85%. Dimming curve is also impressive. Yes, they cut out at about 5% or less, but smooth above that number. Stick with major brands and try before you buy. Not all LEDs are created equal.



JD, what fixtures did your church go with?


----------



## JD (Jan 19, 2013)

epimetheus said:


> JD, what fixtures did your church go with?


(Post directly above)


----------



## MNicolai (Jan 19, 2013)

JD said:


> Actually, we went with direct replacement (screw in) LED lamps in the old incandescent fixtures. All of our 95 watt PAR38s were changed to 17 watt LED (~$38), all the 75 watt A style lamps were changed to 12.5w LED (~$23), all the 75 watt R30's got changed to 13w LED (~$29). Over 100 lamps were changed out in phase 1 resulting in a massive reduction in house light energy. As the PAR38s were at 40 foot height, the savings in labor over the expected 50,000 hour life should also be massive. (To say nothing of not having to look at burned out bulbs for years until you can justify another re-lamping.)
> 
> Another advantage is I could now free up about ten 3.6kw dimmers and use them for something else, although I haven't gotten around to it yet.



How's the dimming curve and the color temp?

So far the tests we've done on direct replacements have failed us in their color temperature and at
dimming.


----------



## JD (Jan 19, 2013)

We went with 2700 except for the A style which is 2650. As one might expect, they are very warm and full feeling at 100% but shift slightly toward blue as you lower them. I would say the shift is slight as no one has noticed they are not the old incandescents! (outside of those involved with the project.) I have sat there (OCD) playing with the dimmer and for house lights, the curve is acceptable. 95% of the time they are simply on at 100%. If they are faded out, it is usually on a 10 count. If you knew they were LED and watched for the shift and drop-out at 5%, you would see it. There is no question that the curve is modified, but again, for house lights I find it acceptable and am happy with the results.

Definitely blows away the CFL options we tried. The PAR38s are TCP, the A and R30 are Phillips. (The A style is the little orange 3 segment lamp. The segments do not cast shadows in the fixture, which surprised me. This is due to the fact that the light is generated at the surface of the lamp. Strange!)


----------



## covenantseth (Jan 20, 2013)

JD said:


> We went with 2700 except for the A style which is 2650. As one might expect, they are very warm and full feeling at 100% but shift slightly toward blue as you lower them. I would say the shift is slight as no one has noticed they are not the old incandescents! (outside of those involved with the project.) I have sat there (OCD) playing with the dimmer and for house lights, the curve is acceptable. 95% of the time they are simply on at 100%. If they are faded out, it is usually on a 10 count. If you knew they were LED and watched for the shift and drop-out at 5%, you would see it. There is no question that the curve is modified, but again, for house lights I find it acceptable and am happy with the results.
> 
> Definitely blows away the CFL options we tried. The PAR38s are TCP, the A and R30 are Phillips. (The A style is the little orange 3 segment lamp. The segments do not cast shadows in the fixture, which surprised me. This is due to the fact that the light is generated at the surface of the lamp. Strange!)



Did those 17W LED's even come close to the same brightness as the old ones? I would probably be fine with going LED in a normal recessed fixture but I was under the impression that a normal screw in LED bulb wouldn't compare to the light output of an the previous. . .


----------



## derekleffew (Jan 20, 2013)

If you go with JD's approach and install traditional downcan s with screw in LED bulb s, you MUST buy lamp s that say DIMMABLE on the package. These cost a little more than the non-dimmable ones, and will still have "bink on/off" at the low end of the dimming curve, which may be slightly alleviated by using a custom dimmer curve on the console. May or may not be a problem for you. It's a big problem with CFL lamps at the end of the show when the houselight s fade back up. Ask Gafftaper.

I just looked at lots of LED lamps at Ikea the other day.
Good:



You DON'T WANT to use lamps labeled thusly:

From EU - Energy-Saving Light Bulbs - How to read the packaging :

> You should always check this logo for compact fluorescent lamps and LEDs, as many of them will not work when operated on standard dimmers. However, there exist also dimmable compact fluorescent lamps and LEDs, and improved incandescent bulbs are always dimmable.


----------



## JD (Jan 20, 2013)

covenantseth said:


> Did those 17W LED's even come close to the same brightness as the old ones? I would probably be fine with going LED in a normal recessed fixture but I was under the impression that a normal screw in LED bulb wouldn't compare to the light output of an the previous. . .



Yes, they were quite impressive. TCP# LED17E26P3827KFL 40 degree beam. 966 lumens. (The old incandescent lamps were rated at 900) They are fully dimmable. Most interesting is there are several energy rebate programs run by local electric companies that offset some of the install cost. To qualify, the lamps must meet a specific list of criteria. TCPs met this criteria. Also, they are not from China. (Made in USA) Price on these varies greatly, but we were able to get them for $38 each in a lot of 60.

Note: Once I found the $38 price online, I went to our local electrical supply house. They had quoted $47 per lamp. After a lot of back-and-forth, they matched the $38 price on the order.


----------



## Esoteric (Jan 20, 2013)

derekleffew said:


> You're (more than) welcome.
> 
> However, as much as we like to offer assistance and opinions, we also have a saying around here:
> _*Especially* concerning rigging, electrical, and life-safety issues,_
> ...



This is great advice. We do light electrical work, but when we do we contract engineers, master electricians (necessary to pull a permit), journeyman electricians (needed to run the job site in these parts), etc and we still hit problems from time to time (for example a recent install we did there was no battery backup for the house lights which were being used as emergency lighting as none was specified in the contract and the space failed its inspection for insufficient emergency lighting). There is so much to think about in these situations you need to hire a professional.

And $2k is a good deal. For a job like this that is right on target. The $13k budget is just unrealistic.

I still have never seen a LED replacement lamp or pendant fixture that I find acceptable other than the Affineon gear. We did however just finish a house light install on a budget with American DJ FlatPAR CWWW units and I was shocked at how nice they looked and how well they worked.


----------



## Les (Jan 20, 2013)

Esoteric said:


> I still have never seen a LED replacement lamp or pendant fixture that I find acceptable other than the Affineon gear. We did however just finish a house light install on a budget with American DJ FlatPAR CWWW units and I was shocked at how nice they looked and how well they worked.



Have you taken a look at the Altman Chalice yet? I haven't, but I'd be curious to know your thoughts if you have.


----------



## Esoteric (Jan 20, 2013)

Les said:


> Have you taken a look at the Altman Chalice yet? I haven't, but I'd be curious to know your thoughts if you have.



I have heard about it Les, but my distributor's Altman Rep is SLOW in getting me a sample. I need to call him Monday. I will let you know as soon as I get a sample/pricing. I am just a little suspicious when a manufacturer takes so long to get samples and pricing out there. If it does what it says and comes in cheaper than the Affineon then I could use (and sell) a LOT of them.

Mike


----------



## JChenault (Jan 20, 2013)

Les said:


> Have you taken a look at the Altman Chalice yet? I haven't, but I'd be curious to know your thoughts if you have.


I got to look at the Altman spectra cube which is reputed to have the same fade engine as the chalice. My observation was that in 16 bit mode, with smoothing enabled to was quite acceptable. No viesable steps in the curve. No visible pop at the low end


----------



## BillConnerFASTC (Jan 21, 2013)

We've tested the chalice - which is a spectra par basically - and pretty good. We've not been satisfied with Affineon - 2 or 3 projects - especially tech support - but it does look ok. Slightly flaky dmx board. Gotham, an Acuity brand who also owns Pathport, has some very promising LED downlights. We are constantly looking for options and testing them. some are good enough for most applications, but none dim as beautifully as quartz.....yet.


----------



## Esoteric (Jan 21, 2013)

BillConnerASTC said:


> We've tested the chalice - which is a spectra par basically - and pretty good. We've not been satisfied with Affineon - 2 or 3 projects - especially tech support - but it does look ok. Slightly flaky dmx board. Gotham, an Acuity brand who also owns Pathport, has some very promising LED downlights. We are constantly looking for options and testing them. some are good enough for most applications, but none dim as beautifully as quartz.....yet.



Yeah, I have seen Gotham's stuff. Not as smooth as Affineon and it has the LED click at the end which Affineon does not. So-so gear. Okay for most applications but not for theater or church house lighting.

That is the first I have heard about their tech support. I have never had an issue with it but that isn't to say that they don't have problems.

So far you just can't beat the look of their stuff though for imitating incandescent. I am still waiting on the Chalice though.

Mike


----------



## BillConnerFASTC (Jan 21, 2013)

Did you see the DMX controlled Gotham or just teh 0-10 or line voltage? We thought the DMX version was pretty good fading to off.


----------



## Esoteric (Jan 21, 2013)

I saw the DMX controlled unit. They were pretty good, and would be useful commercially, but not good enough to be used for house lights IMHO.

Mike


----------



## museav (Jan 22, 2013)

covenantseth said:


> I am putting together a lighting/video and sound system for a church's new sanctuary. They want their lights to be dimmable. I am picking out the fixtures and equipment for this project and have a few questions. I have never put together a system that included the house lights.


Applying my Consultant perspective, you usually start with figuring out what it is you are trying to do and then develop a design to support that, basically define the problems and then develop solutions for the problems defined. So it might help to identify the goals, needs, conditions, etc. that you and/or the church have established before getting into any specific equipment or wiring.

For example, do they want to use the house lights for cleaning and maintenance where they may want greater illumination at floor level? Do you want to hace multiple circuits so you can have light over the congregation but not on stage or brighter over FOH? Is anyone addressing which lights have to always be on or be on fail-safe circuits for safety? Are you considering cost of operation? Have you coordinated the lighting layout with ductwork and diffusers/return grilles, sprinkler pipes and heads and all the other stuff involved in a ceiling?

Off topic but looking at your renderings, you have a very broad audience area, are you thinking you'll have stereo for the entire audience from the two speakers shown? Is that ramp actually ADA compliant or are you not worried about that?


----------



## covenantseth (Jan 30, 2013)

museav said:


> Applying my Consultant perspective, you usually start with figuring out what it is you are trying to do and then develop a design to support that, basically define the problems and then develop solutions for the problems defined. So it might help to identify the goals, needs, conditions, etc. that you and/or the church have established before getting into any specific equipment or wiring.
> 
> For example, do they want to use the house lights for cleaning and maintenance where they may want greater illumination at floor level? Do you want to hace multiple circuits so you can have light over the congregation but not on stage or brighter over FOH? Is anyone addressing which lights have to always be on or be on fail-safe circuits for safety? Are you considering cost of operation? Have you coordinated the lighting layout with ductwork and diffusers/return grilles, sprinkler pipes and heads and all the other stuff involved in a ceiling?
> 
> Off topic but looking at your renderings, you have a very broad audience area, are you thinking you'll have stereo for the entire audience from the two speakers shown? Is that ramp actually ADA compliant or are you not worried about that?



Thanks for the reply

1. The way we will be wiring the lights will be in banks. This way we can project light on the people and not the stage

2. The lights will be for everything. Potlucks, cleaning, maintenance, ect.

3. Cost of operation is definitely in consideration. Bulb replacement cost, how often they are replaced, heat output, energy consumption ect. 

4. Unfortunately I don't have access to HVAC contractor yet to determine placement of venting and ductwork. I don't believe this room requires sprinklers and there is nothing at this point to my knowledge that will be on the ceiling other than lighting and projection. 


> Off topic but looking at your renderings, you have a very broad audience area, are you thinking you'll have stereo for the entire audience from the two speakers shown? Is that ramp actually ADA compliant or are you not worried about that?



Haha. This was a preliminary rendering to show the scale. We will be running a 3 speaker line array on each side of the stage using the QSC KLA12's and the KW181 Powered Subs. Best line array speaker system in that price range in my opinion. We will be hooking them up with 6 of the KLA12's and 2 of the KW181's BRAND NEW for a little under $13,000. I'm stoked.

The ramp we actually were able to get them to let us put it in the adjacent room so it doesn't end up in the actual sanctuary, praise the Lord!

Here is the updated rendering


----------



## covenantseth (Jan 30, 2013)

BillConnerASTC said:


> With your budget of $13,000 for a lighting system don't spend 15% on design fees. But in the end your budget is just too small and unrealistic. (Well, if the consultant can convince your management to spend 2 to 3 or more times what is budgeted, then they're worth it.)



No doubt. If I could convince them I would have them go with these,

Church Production Magazine Products


----------



## BillConnerFASTC (Jan 30, 2013)

I'd be surprised if code didn't require fire sprinklers but possible. Just the suggestion of adjacent building and the types of construction suggests there is enough area to require sprinklers. Also accessibility requires the acceesible route in the room if there is a route otherwise - which there clearly is. Doesn't mean everyone understands the rules nore that you won't get away with it - but it's pretty clear. The IBC says: "1108.2.8 Performance areas. An accessible route shall directly connect the performance area to the assembly seating area where a circulation path directly connects a performance area to an assembly seating area. An accessible route shall be provided from performance areas to ancillary areas or facilities used by performers. " That means not having to go out of the room, up a ramp or lift, and back onto the platform if you are in a wheelchair, and yet without a wheelchair you can step right up.


----------



## church (Feb 7, 2013)

derekleffew said:


> These are the kind of questions the $2k lighting designer already knows the answers to. Building codes state different levels of illumination for different purposes. Aesthetically, 2700K light may be more desirable than 5600, but not if a low CRI. You may not be allowed to install 300W incandescent lamps, as a greater efficacy may be required in your jurisdiction. Additionally, in a commercial building, particularly a place of public assembly, you'll need a licensed electrical contractor to perform the work, a permit application for the work to be performed, and an inspection by the AHJ. Emergency / egress lighting must be considered, as well as possibly an architectural lighting control system. You probably don't want the custodian to have to know how to turn on the lightboard in order to turn on the houselight s to vacuum the auditorium. Likewise, wall switch es / entry station s inside each door might be desirable/required, but you don't want an audience member turning on the houselights in the middle of a performance. The houselights might want/need to be fed from a different electrical service than the stage dimmers.
> 
> Sorry for more questions than answers. Look at the listed above manufacturers' websites for information on their architectural systems. Keep asking questions; we'll keep providing non-answers.
> .



Derek makes a number of good points in his post, the $2k to do the design sounds very competitive. Up here in frozen Canada that design needs and engineer's seal on it. If it doesn't you need to pray (pun intended) that you: a) never have a problem and/or b) you never get caught because it will cost you a lot more than $2k.


----------

