# The Future of LED Stage Lighting !



## JD (May 10, 2007)

So here's a thread for all you designers that are part science geek. When I first saw LEDs in the late 60's or so, they were dim little things. The thought of using them for stage lighting seemed as probable as a UFO landing in my back yard! Yet... here we are. The current LEDs are little blazing torches of light! Still, how far can it go? Will the led ever be on PAR (mind the pun) with filament lamps or arc tubes? Or, is there some block wall that prevents the core junction from producing more than a certain amount of light? I thought this would be a fun thread as all of our future equipment investments hinge on the answer!


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## GeneralDoom (May 10, 2007)

That's a very good question, I don't know the answer, but I do know that LED's are also working their way in to flashlights as well; they are nice annd bright and they do have the advatage of a longer life, but I think that gels will have to be re-designed to account for the deferences between traditional lamps and LEDs


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## DarSax (May 10, 2007)

Hate to say it:
http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5079

D:


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## JD (May 10, 2007)

DarSax said:


> Hate to say it:
> http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5079
> D:


We all know the efficiency aspect, but the real question is "Will they work for stage lighting?" By that I mean, beyond special effects. They have some huge obstacles to overcome. Although the white LEDs broaden their spectrum with a phosphor add, the nature of LED's is to be monochromatic. Standard color mix is a challenge as there are some holes in the spectrum. Also, although wash lights can be achieved with grouping, spot lights require a point source, thus the question about the limits of output on a single device. This is going to be a high stakes money game for us all in the coming years. Look at the PC industry. For many years, the processor speed doubled each year. Then they hit a wall. For the last few years the speed is only creeping forward. The limits of silicon were reached and we will all have to wait for that wall to break. Could the same be true with LEDs? Although cool by comparison, the junction can only take so much heat. We now see that even LEDs have a short lifespan when pushed close to the limit. BTW, white LEDs only stay white for a defined amount of time before the phosphor fades and their output shifts.


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## PadawanGeek (May 10, 2007)

We did a show at my church last night on a small stage using 4 ADJ P64 LEDs. With all of the other lights in the room off, we could color the whole stage to whatever we want.

Anyway, even though I was impressed by what those can do last night, when comparing them to conventional fixtures, I think that the place for LEDs is special effects, background lighting, and small stages.


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## Logos (May 10, 2007)

Of course this is long term but with the groundswell that is growing to replace incandescents with lower cost lamps LED may be the way forward for us in the theatre. I cannot see CFL being a suitable replacement in our industry given the difficulties and expense of dimming them.


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## JSFox (May 10, 2007)

It's not just dimming them, there's also the huge mass of spectrum that they're kinda missing. Thats why people in Washington state (the home of SAD = Seasonal Affective Disorder) don't use them because those missing wavelengths are critical to our health. This is an issue thats still problematic with LED's though not a huge of a hole.


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## TimMiller (May 11, 2007)

I have a moving yolk LED wash. I was using it with some studio colors and some studio beams. I have also used it with mac 600's. They intensity of it is about the same as the studio color and mac 600. I used it at blackham Colosseum in Louisiana to silloet a dance number. It was hitting the back wall at 300' away. The head consists of 36 3 watt leds. We were also working on a building project using some new technology of 50 and 75 watt leds. They were changing a 30 story building colors.


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## proaudio4 (May 11, 2007)

TimMiller said:


> I have a moving yolk LED wash. I was using it with some studio colors and some studio beams. I have also used it with mac 600's. They intensity of it is about the same as the studio color and mac 600. I used it at blackham Colosseum in Louisiana to silloet a dance number. It was hitting the back wall at 300' away. The head consists of 36 3 watt leds. We were also working on a building project using some new technology of 50 and 75 watt leds. They were changing a 30 story building colors.


Hmm.
This makes me wonder if it's wise to drop a lot of coin into 575W to 1200W moving head fixtures when the LED technology is making these advances.


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## jmabray (May 11, 2007)

RGB fixtures are missing lots of color. Take a look at the Selador line of fixtures. They use a 7 color LED scheme. The colors are a lot better than with just an RGB mix. 

www.selador.net


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## JD (May 11, 2007)

proaudio4 said:


> Hmm.
> This makes me wonder if it's wise to drop a lot of coin into 575W to 1200W moving head fixtures when the LED technology is making these advances.


And that's the part that worries me! If you are a company that is going to expand, say, buy a dozen new Vari-Lites, Do you chance it? That's a lot of bucks and requires quite a few years of service to pay back the investment and make a profit. What if two or three years from now, LED units can function as well? Without all that ballast weight, shows will want to book the newer, lighter units, and you are stuck with product and no profit! We live in exciting times, but it can make things chancy! On the flip side, you delay new purchases to see what's coming to market. Two or three years pass without a major improvement and you have successfully stunted the growth of your company! It is really hard to predict if LED lighting is going to be a "nitch" field, or take over. My gut is telling me there are some physical limits, but I read Tim's post above and it causes my gut to feel like it is on a moving yoke!


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## PadawanGeek (May 11, 2007)

proaudio4 said:


> Hmm.
> This makes me wonder if it's wise to drop a lot of coin into 575W to 1200W moving head fixtures when the LED technology is making these advances.



Still, with conventional moving yokes, you can project crisp gobos that LEDs can't.


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## Van (May 11, 2007)

I posted a link to an article I read on here a while back. it's titled Nanodots. I think the technology will get there, as far as LED lighting is concerned. The Nano dot technology is just one way the performance issues of LEDs can be improved. Just as the original lighting fixtures were floods, scoops, strips.... basically all "wash" fixtures, so we are seeing those areas being filled by LED light now. As folks get more and more creative, they'll discover how to get more and more out of those little guys, Who knows maybe some kid from Control Booth is sitting out there right now with an LED PAR can, and tomorrow he'll develop something to rival the Source 4 in performance, lifetime, operating costs, and projection characterisctics.


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## SHARYNF (May 12, 2007)

we are already at 3 watt leds at reasonable price, I think we are not far from at least an order of magnitude increase, and building a small array and getting a reflector/lens system that will make led's an alternative to the 575w sources in a few years. I think that as soon as someone looks at them as alternative for street lamps and commercial vapor lamps that we will see another increase in the power level and then the designs will start to fall in place

Sharyn


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## Logos (May 12, 2007)

Here in Adelaide our traffic lights are LED and pretty bright I haven't actually looked into what wattage they are. I'll see what I can find out.


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## TimMiller (May 12, 2007)

I was using my LED wash with two color pro II's to light up a stage. The LED would mix perfectly with any color i'd make with the color pro's. It was a more concentrated beam of light, but worked perfectly as a colored spot to light up the preacher.


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## JSFox (May 31, 2012)

5 years ago we made a few predictions. How'd we do? Have LED's reached the potential we thought they would by this time?


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## Les (May 31, 2012)

PadawanGeek said:


> ... with conventional moving yokes, you can project crisp gobos that LEDs can't.



We did say a lot of this 5 years ago. Not just PadawanGeek, I seem to remember most of us considering gobo projection a stumbling block. The mInspot kind of shook that notion up, but I think we all were still a little skeptical.


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## cbrandt (May 31, 2012)

Les said:


> We did say a lot of this 5 years ago. Not just PadawanGeek, I seem to remember most of us considering gobo projection a stumbling block. The mInspot kind of shook that notion up, but I think we all were still a little skeptical.



There are several very nice moving head LED source units out there with great gobo projection. Mac 350, GLP SpotOne, Robe Robin DLX all have very nice crisp and soft focus gobo capability. I think the big current problem is color rendering/full spectrum ability, and intensity.


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## gafftapegreenia (May 31, 2012)

The biggest obstacle with LED right now is being able to efficiently produce the same amount and quality of white light that tungsten fixtures can. Sure, it's possible, but it's not cheap, not as efficient, and there are all the spectrum issues as we have discussed at length. I think we are certainly at a point where hybrid LED systems are proving they are here to stay. 

I might be seeing a S4 LED today, so I will be able to weight in on that option soon.


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## cbrandt (May 31, 2012)

gafftapegreenia said:


> I might be seeing a S4 LED today, so I will be able to weight in on that option soon.



The S4 LED is a very nice unit, but it doesn't compare to light output of a 575, nor does ETC claim that it does.


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## Les (May 31, 2012)

cbrandt said:


> There are several very nice moving head LED source units out there with great gobo projection. Mac 350, GLP SpotOne, Robe Robin DLX all have very nice crisp and soft focus gobo capability. I think the big current problem is color rendering/full spectrum ability, and intensity.



Very correct you are.

It's just funny because several years ago we were debating whether you _could_ project gobos with an LED source.


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## rochem (May 31, 2012)

cbrandt said:


> The S4 LED is a very nice unit, but it doesn't compare to light output of a 575, nor does ETC claim that it does.



Nor is it intended to replace the conventional Source Four. In our prior discussions, we all seemed to be measuring the success of LED technology by how well it can emulate an incandescent conventional unit, which makes sense as this is what we're familiar with. However, ETC has made it very clear in their marketing for the S4 LED that this is NOT intended to perfectly match and replace an incandescent unit, but is intended to act as another paint brush in the lighting designer's arsenal (how's that for mixed metaphors?). It's a similar idea to a discussion we had when the ETC PARNel was introduced - someone (and I can't remember what thread or when or who) said something like "the light from a PARNel doesn't look like a PAR, and it doesn't look like a Fresnel, but it is still a useful fixture for what it does do." I do know that a certain NY-area rental shop has bought quite a few units, and I would not at all be surprised to see a smattering of these starting to pop up in broadway shows - probably not as entire systems, but certainly for some particular effects where that look is desired. If the industry does eventually completely eliminate conventional units in favor of virtually identical LED units, I doubt this will be for many, many more years.


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## Pie4Weebl (Jun 1, 2012)

rochem said:


> It's a similar idea to a discussion we had when the ETC PARNel was introduced - someone (and I can't remember what thread or when or who) said something like "the light from a PARNel doesn't look like a PAR, and it doesn't look like a Fresnel, but it is still a useful fixture for what it does do."



I've never met ANYONE who honestly likes a parnel. I played a venue with a rig of those, and I still have no idea what spinning the knob does. I've come to the conclusion that it just changes the way the field is uneven.


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## JSFox (Jun 1, 2012)

Pie4Weebl said:


> I still have no idea what spinning the knob does. I've come to the conclusion that it just changes the way the field is uneven.


After all these years... I knew there was a good explanation for it


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## chausman (Jun 1, 2012)

Pie4Weebl said:


> I've never met ANYONE who honestly likes a parnel. I played a venue with a rig of those, and I still have no idea what spinning the knob does. I've come to the conclusion that it just changes the way the field is uneven.



I like them. 

Look closely at what the knob does...it is noticeable. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## hobbsies (Jun 1, 2012)

Its a flood/spot knob isnt it?


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## chausman (Jun 1, 2012)

hobbsies said:


> Its a flood/spot knob isnt it?



Yup. Very useful. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Pie4Weebl (Jun 1, 2012)

hobbsies said:


> Its a flood/spot knob isnt it?



That's what they _claim_ it is!


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## SteveB (Jun 1, 2012)

Pie4Weebl said:


> That's what they _claim_ it is!



No Victor, that's what it does. I have a dozen on a high pit/apron side position, used for saturated side washes. I've owned them for 8 years or so, replacing PAR64'S. They punch and adjust just fine. Sometimes I zoom to tight for individual tight specials, sometimes wide open, so they're very useful in my application. I do not use them as my primary back lights as they don't flood as wide as a S4 Par with a wide lens. I would buy more if they had greater spread.


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## gafftapegreenia (Jun 1, 2012)

I heard (perhaps a rumor) that ETC made the field less spotty in later versions of the PARnel.


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## Footer (Jun 2, 2012)

gafftapegreenia said:


> I heard (perhaps a rumor) that ETC made the field less spotty in later versions of the PARnel.



Exactly. Early adopters of the Parnell got shafted. Those units had serious problems with a dark hot spot when flooded. I have a feeling this is what you had Victor. Later versions did not have these problems, and that is what Steve has. Many people will not use these lights because of those early problems. 

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2


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## coasterboard (Jun 4, 2012)

Pie4Weebl said:


> I've never met ANYONE who honestly likes a parnel. I played a venue with a rig of those, and I still have no idea what spinning the knob does. I've come to the conclusion that it just changes the way the field is uneven.



We have mostly S4 PARs, but we have a box of 12 PARnels, and I LOVE them. The only time I notice the optics being funny is when they're all the way flooded out- so I always tweak it in a bit from full flood and they stay nice and even. Maybe it's because they're new.

Don't get me wrong, I would never replace an entire rig with them, but they certainly do have practical uses


Getting back to the topic at hand, aren't we still hearing good things from ETC's LED Source 4 leko?


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## StNic54 (Jun 29, 2012)

We Demo'd a Source4 LED Ellipsoidal. They are neat fixtures, no matter which barrel you use, and I was impressed with the digital lense and its crisp feel. That being said, I'm concerned about the punch of the no-color look. The sales rep admitted that the white LED is probably still a few years away from really being a considerably bright source, and I would hesitate to hang them in the front of house as a distance throw. With that reservation, and the high price, I'd give ETC another year or two of upgrading before investing heavily in the Source4 LED Leko.


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## gafftapegreenia (Jun 29, 2012)

StNic54 said:


> We Demo'd a Source4 LED Ellipsoidal. They are neat fixtures, no matter which barrel you use, and I was impressed with the digital lense and its crisp feel. That being said, I'm concerned about the punch of the no-color look. The sales rep admitted that the white LED is probably still a few years away from really being a considerably bright source, and I would hesitate to hang them in the front of house as a distance throw. With that reservation, and the high price, I'd give ETC another year or two of upgrading before investing heavily in the Source4 LED Leko.



The general feeling among the industry right now is that LED is more than ready to do the medium to saturated colors, and indeed, it is in those areas that they excel. However, for tints and white light, halogen is still more efficient. Hybrid rigs will likely continue on for the foreseeable future, and tungsten won't die for quite a long while. Just look at how many places have their strip lights soldiering on.


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