# Wacky/innovative idea?



## derekleffew (Dec 28, 2009)

http://minneapolisconventioncenter.com/content/PDF/auditorium-specs07.pdf

At the rear of the auditorium (built 2002) are three turntables of 430 seats each that can add additional seating to the main auditorium or be used independently as lecture halls. 

I know of Stocker Center, (built 1980) on the campus of Lorain Co. Comm. College in Elyria, OH; it has two turntables of 230 seats each.

One CB member (can't remember who) has a similar set-up. Does anyone know of any others? A Google search reveals Turntable Divisible Auditorium (TDA) - Macton Corporation. I'm curious because my HS had a similar, but much less expensive solution--airwalls divided the lecture halls from the main auditorium. 

Good idea or gimmick?


----------



## Footer (Dec 28, 2009)

Gimmick.

The sitelines could not be all that great. Let alone what it would do to the acoustics of the room. I doubt any real money is saved over adding the extra seats to the main venue and building a second after the acoustic concerns, mechanical concerns, and whatever else is figured in. I could see it being used in the middle of Manhattan where space is at a premium but it would be useless in the middle of a cornfield. 

Added to that... it just looks awkward. 

I have seen a few HS auds that have a airwall across the mid isle. Its not a bad solution to divide up a theatre into lecture halls.


----------



## museav (Dec 28, 2009)

I can definitely see the turntable approach being beneficial for some applications, for example in a convention center auditorium where the needs for various room capacities and capabilities can routinely differ. I'm not sure of the advantages in some other applications and many of the claimed advantages for the turntable approach such as shared Lobby space could also be true for a well designed facility with multiple individual spaces. I'm also not that swayed by Macton's claimed cost savings as they appear based on one study that used generic per square foot costs and not on any detailed design or actual construction costs, the savings claimed might be valid but the basis used is limited and not that persuasive to anyone who has seen the problems with applying such generic costs to this type of facility.

Both the turntable and airwall approaches have implications beyond the actual airwall or turntable such as exiting, mechanical systems and control, lighting and control, life safety, etc. Acoustically, although you may be able to get products with fairly high laboratory sound isolation performance, that performance is still somewhat limited and typically the actual isolation in the field is even further reduced. You may be able to use adjacent rooms for simultaneous lectures and speech, but with the audio systems commonly used in spaces that would also be installing turntables or airwalls of that size you'd likely have trouble supporting simultaneous music performances or multimedia presentations.


----------



## ruinexplorer (Dec 29, 2009)

At the Chandler Center for the Arts, which serves as a community theater, a road house, and a high school auditorium, there are two "pods" of seating as can be seen in the picture. Each of these pods when inverted from the main stage have their own performance space. The house left pod has it's own booth for when it is inverted, the house right pod has a less formal performance space. The only sightline issue that I remember were the mezannines (barely visible in this picture). While I was always doing electrics when working in this facility, I don't remember there being significant acoustic flaws with the pods opened or closed.

In contrast, the Dodge Theater in downtown Phoenix (sorry, it's a Live Nation venue so little info is available, including photos) is a flexible house with air walls but much larger than the Chandler Center. When the airwalls (on the side) are opened up for concerts, the acoustics are great. However, since the sightlines are too poor for theater, the airwalls are closed and if you are unlucky enough to be seated near them, the sound is horrendous. 

For me, I'd rather take the pods if these two venues are remotely representative of the two technologies.


----------



## cdub260 (Dec 30, 2009)

Practical issues aside, I would love to see this system in operation.


----------



## beachcombah15 (Dec 31, 2009)

At my HS, in our poorly designed auditorium, we have two sections of airwall which can divided the space into three sections. Ill try to get some pictures on one of the days I head back up there during break.

Not only does the theatre looks weird, but the sightlines are terrible from the outermost areas due to the wide angle; which also makes it hard to evenly light.


----------



## Van (Dec 31, 2009)

the first space I ever saw this idea incorporated into was a PAC at teh Jenks High School in Jenks, Oklahoma. The facility was built in 79- 80 if memory serves, it must have been one of the first facilities to utilize this technology. Incredible space, the sound mixing area is in front of and below the light booth, sort of hangs over the center doors into the auditorium. Imagine a Black hawk Helicopter setup, look a lot like that. 
Anyway. 13 Million dollars in 1979 dollars , beautiful space but if you got more than 3 feet upstage of the Proscenum you couldn't be heard in the house..... BTW Oral Roberts University sits in the Jenks School District taxation zone. which is one of the ways they were able to afford that much cash for a school project.


----------



## WestlakeTech (Jan 9, 2010)

Sorry I'm late. Haven't been around much lately and Derek brought this thread to my attention....

At Westlake, we had two. One on the left, and one on the right. The one house left was used as the "Choir Hall" when not turned around for a show. The one on the right was used as a "Lecture Hall". Though, truth be told, I don't recall any situations where any of the turn-tables were used at the same time as a performance. 

As for sightlines, they're really not that bad... though some seats at Westlake certainly ARE... even moreso after the recent renovation. My only complaint about sitting there is the distance from the stage. It's so far back that everything down there is quite small. But I know that compared to many theaters, it could be much worse.

Acoustics, they're really not bad. It kinda depends on how well-prepared the theater designers and builders were. As far as I know, the acoustics at Westlake are just fine. (For the record, I'm pretty sure the theater was constructed in '84 or '86)


cdub260 said:


> Practical issues aside, I would love to see this system in operation.



It's really not that eventful. If you've seen it once, you've seen it a million times. 
Somebody takes a key, puts it into the wall, turns it... and the dang thing turns at a painfully slow rate, I'm guessing about 4 or 5 feet per second if not less, until it's in its correct place... besides, they don't even let the Tech students sit there while it turns. 

I like that we have 'em, but I'm not totally convinced that they're necessary. People at Westlake just like new and expensive toys.


----------



## Anvilx (Jan 9, 2010)

WestlakeTech said:


> I like that we have 'em, but I'm not totally convinced that they're necessary. People at Westlake just like new and expensive toys.



And can afford them.


----------



## WestlakeTech (Jan 9, 2010)

Anvilx said:


> And can afford them.



Yeah. Not all of us (like me, for example). But many, yes...

But the school's uber-expensive stuff is usually bond money... thanks to insane property taxes...


----------



## museav (Jan 9, 2010)

Anvilx said:


> And can afford them.


But keep in mind that the idea would ostensibly be not having to create and maintain a theatre with the full seating capacity as well as a separate Choir Hall and Lecture Hall. In fact potential cost savings seems to be the major advantage Macton claims. I don't know how true that really is for all applications but I also don't think you can assume there was not a legitimate reason for employing the concept.


----------



## mnfreelancer (Jan 9, 2010)

I have worked in that convention center and it is quite the sight at first but doesn't make a whole lot of difference as every time I have been in that space those pods were open. The Mpls convention center is set up to be as configurable, customizable and modular as possible and therefore this type of set-up is a good idea considering the extreme variety of shows/meetings that go on in there.

My middle school space when I was in school was set up with accordion type airwall partitions that divided the space into three parts. This was often useful for multiple community ed events, multiple audition spaces for rental users and very useful if a group needed a large meeting space (>100 people) but we needed to be working on stage / over the house in preparation for a show or something like that. Throw the partition closed, let them do their thing house left while we hammer and paint in the center section.


----------



## JChenault (Jan 9, 2010)

Could someone define ' Air Wall' for me please?

Assuming it is some kind of wall on air casters - but it never hurts to ask.


----------



## len (Jan 9, 2010)

An airwall is a wall that is in sections. It's connected to the ceiling by a track, panels have wheels in the bottom and rollers in the top, and the sections are stored in a wall compartment. Some are manual, some are mechanical, and the panels just allow a room to be divided.


----------



## WestlakeTech (Jan 9, 2010)

museav said:


> But keep in mind that the idea would ostensibly be not having to create and maintain a theatre with the full seating capacity as well as a separate Choir Hall and Lecture Hall. In fact potential cost savings seems to be the major advantage Macton claims. I don't know how true that really is for all applications but* I also don't think you can assume there was not a legitimate reason for employing the concept*.



I'm sure there were legitimate reasons for employing the concept. I just think that, in hindsight at the very least, they weren't entirely practical.


----------



## midgetgreen11 (Jan 11, 2010)

JChenault said:


> Could someone define ' Air Wall' for me please?
> 
> Assuming it is some kind of wall on air casters - but it never hurts to ask.




Best example would be your typical gym divider that stacks into an alcove.


----------



## venuetech (Jan 11, 2010)

I have two "pods" 124 seats each here in Kodiak, Macton units, built in 1986. They work great one is lecture hall the other has a small stage. 
the day to day full time classroom use is very hard on the seats but we just try to keep up with that. acoustically some of the best seats are in the middle of the pod. 

the auditorium construction committee saw pods at Kitsap county HS in Washington and another in Oregon and added them to the wish list

Macton calls up the maintenance dept every year to make sure things are in order. and all the proper checks have been done.

it is my understanding that because we added "classrooms" with the pods, additional funding was made aviable making the pods a bit more cost effective.


----------



## Chris15 (Jan 12, 2010)

What you know as an "air wall" is known in other parts of the world as an "operable wall". Bottom casters optional, with all the weight being taken by the track.

The dominant manufacturer here is Hufcor Operable Walls | Hufcor Australia & New Zealand.


----------



## mstaylor (Jan 17, 2010)

Funny how things are called different things around the world, air wall is all I ever it called.


----------



## museav (Jan 18, 2010)

Chris15 said:


> What you know as an "air wall" is known in other parts of the world as an "operable wall".


Actually they are properly called an "operable partition" in the U.S. and Section 10 22 26 in CSI MasterFormat 2004 is "Operable Partitions" with subsets of "Accordion Folding Partitions", "Coiling Partitions", "Folding Panel Partitions" and "Sliding Partitions".

Common manufacturers are Hufcor, Modernfold, Skywall (which down from overhead) and Moderco among many others.


----------

