# Another opening - almost



## BillConnerFASTC (Sep 30, 2018)

Just returned from next to final trip to Doylestown OH project - 426 seat HS/MS auditorium and stage. It would be done except the construction manager offered savings by using Seating Concepts instead of Irwin and Seating Concepts stopped operations a week or two before this was to deliver and install. Anyway, I got to see the wall washers off a decorative wall treatment. I was nervous how it would work - washing upper side walls with profiles from opposite corners of the room. I was pleased. May play with shutter cuts and am considering a profile mask for the entry vestibules. Four ETC S4WRD - 3K 80CRI - 50 degree EDLT.

BTW DMX is all CS wireless relays and has worked flawlessly so far. And the running lights (jelly jars) are all fitted with Ketra lamps so you can pick colors with Paradigm or Element 2. I just set presets blue or white in each zone. 

Always pleasant when more things and first time things work at first site visit than don't work. This one was good in that regard.


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## Amiers (Sep 30, 2018)

It’s super awesome that you get to do that. 

And that you document and share. 

Looks really cool.


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## JohnD (Sep 30, 2018)

Oh cool, festival seating, Why even Cain's Ballroom doesn't need no stinking seats.
I do wonder about how much the "savings" offered by the construction manager will end up costing them.


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## RonHebbard (Sep 30, 2018)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> Just returned from next to final trip to Doylestown OH project - 426 seat HS/MS auditorium and stage. It would be done except the construction manager offered savings by using Seating Concepts instead of Irwin and Seating Concepts stopped operations a week or two before this was to deliver and install. Anyway, I got to see the wall washers off a decorative wall treatment. I was nervous how it would work - washing upper side walls with profiles from opposite corners of the room. I was pleased. May play with shutter cuts and am considering a profile mask for the entry vestibules. Four ETC S4WRD - 3K 80CRI - 50 degree EDLT.
> 
> BTW DMX is all CS wireless relays and has worked flawlessly so far. And the running lights (jelly jars) are all fitted with Ketra lamps so you can pick colors with Paradigm or Element 2. I just set presets blue or white in each zone.
> 
> ...


 *@BillConnerFASTC* What's poured within the house floor slab? Are those concrete boxes for aisle light power? Are there any conduits and back-boxes for intercom, video, isolated ground sound power, utility power for rehearsal desk lights and cleaners' vacuums, CAT5 or 6 for??? What will the final floor finish be; epoxy paint, wood, carpet?? 
Toodleoo! 
Ron Hebbard


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## Jay Ashworth (Sep 30, 2018)

So the contractor tried to sub out a seating vendor, who *went out of business before delivering*, do I have that right?

Heh heh heh...


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## BillConnerFASTC (Sep 30, 2018)

The junction boxes in the floor slab are for seat end aisle lights. Not part of my work but plenty of sound and av infrastructure - notice in house control at rear is reall sound system center, with two racks to side, floor pockets on stage (poor choice of hardware but squeaks are so unconcerned with stage function), and plenty in face of stage and other places. I just have a couple doxen taps for lighting network and the wireless. (Plenty of storage - mezzanines to left and rigght of house, and stage level stsge right, where av racks are.)

Floor will be carpeted aisles and i believe paint under seats, but could be rubber tile -not sure. Stage floor is painted plyron.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Sep 30, 2018)

Jay Ashworth said:


> So the contractor tried to sub out a seating vendor, who *went out of business before delivering*, do I have that right?
> 
> Heh heh heh...


Manufacturer - Seating Concepts. Made in Mexico. Could be tariffs that did it.


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## RonHebbard (Sep 30, 2018)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> Manufacturer - Seating Concepts. Made in Mexico. Could be tariffs that did it.


 *@BillConnerFASTC* Or the seats won't pass through Donald's wall? (I guess that's kind of the same thing.) 
Toodleoo! 
Ron Hebbard


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## JohnD (Sep 30, 2018)

A google search lists Seating Concepts as permanently closed and there was a California bankruptcy auction that ended on July 30.


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## MNicolai (Sep 30, 2018)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> Manufacturer - Seating Concepts. Made in Mexico. Could be tariffs that did it.



I'm seeing this come up more and more frequently in construction meetings. Architects and CM's around here are bracing for projects to become much more expensive. Couple architectural lighting reps warned us of new price lists coming out Oct 1. I've even got contractors wigging out over the cost of speaker mounting hardware. We're expecting it won't be long before fewer projects are released for construction until the tariffs are released.

The hard part is that in this kind of volatility, a contractor generally can't get a change order for a project awarded to them a year ago that they need to order materials for today. Looking forward, they _have_ to bid their projects higher assuming that 1) the tariffs are here to stay, and 2) they could get worse.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Sep 30, 2018)

JohnD said:


> A google search lists Seating Concepts as permanently closed and there was a California bankruptcy auction that ended on July 30.


They were to deliver first week of August for fall semester opening. I have to imagine this is not the only one that they didn't deliver.
The one job they did do for me was poor, so no loss imho.


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## FMEng (Oct 3, 2018)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> floor pockets on stage (poor choice of hardware but squeaks are so unconcerned with stage function), and plenty in face of stage and other places.



I've encountered floor pockets in a few venues, and just never liked them. It seems to me that a cable going off to the wings or to the face of the stage is just as unobtrusive. It seems like floor pockets are always in the wrong place, and the connectors get dirty. Or they get damaged, or a poor installation creates a trip hazard, or they are noisy when stepped on.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Oct 3, 2018)

FMEng said:


> I've encountered floor pockets in a few venues, and just never liked them. It seems to me that a cable going off to the wings or to the face of the stage is just as unobtrusive. It seems like floor pockets are always in the wrong place, and the connectors get dirty. Or they get damaged, or a poor installation creates a trip hazard, or they are noisy when stepped on.


I with you 100%. Technology and AV designers don't seem to care.


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## MNicolai (Oct 3, 2018)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> I with you 100%. Technology and AV designers don't seem to care.



I typically put one on the stage apron offset from the projection screen just so if a presenter's lectern is put out you aren't trying to string mic/video/power across the floor. Kind of thing where if it's being used for something like a commencement address or awards ceremony with lots of people walking across the stage nobody biffs it on the AV cabling. Also because HDMI cables can only be so long before the signal degrades and finding a 35' HDMI can be difficult in a pinch. In these instances it's also nice for the "I don't know what I'm doing" users rather than having them tie in at a downstage right AV panel with 20 other connectors on it.

If the room has an orchestra pit it's usually not worth it. Then the box ends up 10-20' behind where the presenter wants to set up and the cabling ends up in the way exactly like's been described.


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## TheaterEd (Oct 3, 2018)

FMEng said:


> It seems like floor pockets are always in the wrong place



I have two floor pockets. One is just slightly off center with only a data port in it that connects to the school's network and not my own. No power, no sound, nothing. Apparently it's intention was so the school board could connect a desk top to the internet for their annual meeting..... This install opened in 2012 With Wifi, and the board (nor anyone else) has never brought a desktop into this room... 

The second floor pocket is for inputs to the projector, however it is just downstage of the main curtain, and upstage of the screen, so in order to have the podium in a place that makes sense, cable need to be run across the only stage access. Thus I am taping down cables no matter what...

Hindsight 20/20....


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## mbrown3039 (Oct 3, 2018)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> I with you 100%. Technology and AV designers don't seem to care.



Well (along with mnicolai), we care. We only design/recommend floor pockets to be on the downstage edge of the stage, and they usually include power, XLR (both ways) and a couple of networks back to the AV rack room, where they can be patched out to the WWW, used for video, DMX, etc. m


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## SteveB (Oct 3, 2018)

This is what I call a “Floor Pocket to be named later”. Placed out in the rear of the audience seating, nicely routed into the cherry wood floor, concrete an inch below and no clue what it was supposed to be.

We suspect it as intended for the side of the pit area, to have dedicated power circuits. Those where installed (incorrectly) with a bizarre industrial cover that requires a screwdriver to take off the 4”x4” top plate. Possibly they had already installed these out in the rear auditorium and decided to leave in place and not have to make nice cherry wood replacment pieces, then just ordered different pocket covers at the pit.

Such stupidity.


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## RonHebbard (Oct 3, 2018)

SteveB said:


> This is what I call a “Floor Pocket to be named later”. Placed out in the rear of the audience seating, nicely routed into the cherry wood floor, concrete an inch below and no clue what it was supposed to be.
> 
> We suspect it as intended for the side of the pit area, to have dedicated power circuits. Those where installed (incorrectly) with a bizarre industrial cover that requires a screwdriver to take off the 4”x4” top plate. Possibly they had already installed these out in the rear auditorium and decided to leave in place and not have to make nice cherry wood replacment pieces, then just ordered different pocket covers at the pit.
> 
> Such stupidity.


 * @SteveB* Please do tell, are there conduits routed to the pocket? I, fortunately, caught several pockets about to be installed without any conduits. When queried, the electrical contractor stated they were intended for wireless devices. 
Toodleoo! 
Ron Hebbard


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## SteveB (Oct 3, 2018)

RonHebbard said:


> * @SteveB* Please do tell, are there conduits routed to the pocket? I, fortunately, caught several pockets about to be installed without any conduits. When queried, the electrical contractor stated they were intended for wireless devices.
> Toodleoo!
> Ron Hebbard



Anybody’s guess. It’s a poured concrete floor with the remnants of the plywood used to form during construction, stuck to the top of the slab. Our guess is the contractor read the plans upside down, with these covers just at the wrong end of the room. 

I hate these covers. It’s a solid piece with a 3”x3” square hole for cables. The same FP’s on the stage deck have 2P&G receptacles installed and with a cable in a receptacle used you cannot close the cover as the connector protrudes above deck level. Really stupid choice on the consultant. 

In the road house I have 8 FP’s installed, 6 2P&G receptacles each and these are the ETC/Altman model, cast iron things with 8 hole cutouts on the cover. These pockets sit on deck exactly in line with and just offstage of where our side light towers live, so the cables go right into the FP, nothing needs taping or covering. Many a dance company has commented on how useful they are.


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## Amiers (Oct 3, 2018)

SteveB said:


> Anybody’s guess. It’s a poured concrete floor with the remnants of the plywood used to form during construction, stuck to the top of the slab. Our guess is the contractor read the plans upside down, with these covers just at the wrong end of the room.
> 
> I hate these covers. It’s a solid piece with a 3”x3” square hole for cables. The same FP’s on the stage deck have 2P&G receptacles installed and with a cable in a receptacle used you cannot close the cover as the connector protrudes above deck level. Really stupid choice on the consultant.
> 
> In the road house I have 8 FP’s installed, 6 2P&G receptacles each and these are the ETC/Altman model, cast iron things with 8 hole cutouts on the cover. These pockets sit on deck exactly in line with and just offstage of where our side light towers live, so the cables go right into the FP, nothing needs taping or covering. Many a dance company has commented on how useful they are.



I feel like they specced for compact connectors. 

Those tiny rectangle (bates 2pg??) connectors.


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## tjrobb (Oct 3, 2018)

They're for wireless devices? Seriously? Its dumb enough to be believable...


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## BizmanUSA (Oct 4, 2018)

JohnD said:


> A google search lists Seating Concepts as permanently closed and there was a California bankruptcy auction that ended on July 30.



So does the GC have to take it in the shorts for the "upgrade" to the original seating spec? If so, I would put 24 hour guard eyes on the remaining work as I see a few short cuts on the horizon to lessen the financial blow to the GC.


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## RonHebbard (Oct 4, 2018)

tjrobb said:


> They're for wireless devices? Seriously? Its dumb enough to be believable...


 *@tjrobb* The venue was 14 stories, three below grade plus 11 above. There was one general contractor but two electrical, two mechanical, two fitters and two of several other trades. Trade-wise, one set of contractors was contracted first to build the three levels below grade plus four levels above. My boss won the AV subcontract for the entire project which wasn't awarded until all of the basements were poured and they were prepping to pour the fourth or fifth story above grade. The first day on the site I discovered all of the line level conduits had been omitted. Per our contract we were ONLY permitted to speak with the General Contractor and expressly forbidden from discussing or questioning the architects, consulting PEngs and / or contractors. I eventually learned one of the Electrical PEng's was certain he'd caught a needless duplication when he noticed all of the microphone level lines AND all of the line level lines were to be pulled with Belden 8451 or equivalent. As there were connector bulkheads all over the entire building with most bulkheads having both microphone and line level connectors, the PEng was certain there was appreciable money to be saved by eliminating all of the line level conduits. Fortunately we were able to speak with the GC in time to have the line level conduits included in the slabs which had yet to be poured but the nine 44RU racks forming the central patching and amplifier room were in the second basement level thus we were in a real bind for getting all of the line-level lines down to the basement. Fortunately all of the conduits for fibre were included and in many cases we were able to add our line-level lines within the fibre conduits by using good wire lube and crowding the conduits a _little_. It was quite the task to get the GC to believe us since they had at least four architects, two sets of big-time contractors and two sets of PEng's on the job who'd been on site for about a year then we showed up, the unknown newb's on their site, and we're trying to tell them we've caught a major oversight on our first day on their project. 
Yeah, the electrical contractor's foreman for the orchestra level slab seriously told me there were no conduits required for the floor boxes as the symbol shown on his drawings clearly spelled them out as boxes for wireless devices. And here I was, the new'b on the site for my first day and thinking I'd caught an error. I called my boss, explained the situation, and left it in his capable hands, he's much better at dealing with such bureaucracy than I am. 
*@tjrobb * Let me tell you one more tale from this same project as I'm sure you'll understand.
Back stage at deck level there were four identical 40RU racks DSL and four more DSR. Three racks on each side were being supplied, and installed by one of the electrical contractors while the fourth rack on each side was being provided, installed and wired by our company and a separate IBEW crew on our payroll. The electrical PEng specified all of his racks were to be bonded to the substation grounding bus with something like bare 2/0 copper. The electro-acoustic PEng wanted his rack, the fourth identical rack on each side, mechanically bolted hard up against the other three racks to guarantee its exterior frame would be at the same ground potential. Our Electro-acoustic PEng knew he was having us install insulated copper bus bars on isolated stand-offs within our two racks with yellow and green jacketed 2/0 copper housed in its own dedicated conduit directly down to the sub-station's ground buss at the same point as all of our A/V iso-grounds were being grounded. 
All of our systems were being powered via three 600 volt Delta > 120/208 Y transformers powering six 41 breaker Lyntec panels at three different elevations throughout the venue, two in the second basement central rack room, two in the enclosed booth at the rear of the orchestra level and two more five stories above the stage powering all of the Meyer powered cabinets covering the four balcony seating levels. 
The rub was the electrical PEng was sure he knew better and was SURE the electro-acoustic PEng had erred thus the Electrical PEng INSISTED we had to provide a minimum 1/4" insulating barrier the full height and depth between our racks and his racks AND bolt the third and fourth racks on each side of the stage together with 5/16"-18 nylon hardware. No matter how we tried, we could NOT get the two PEng's to speak with one another and so it came to be; my boss had to foot the bill to have two insulating spacers fabricated in a CNC shop so they could be slid between two racks then bolted together with nylon hardware THEN, once the electrical PEng had his electrical contractor meter the two racks in his presence and prove they were electrically isolated, we installed our iso-ground and shook our heads. Some days are like that. To my knowledge, the racks are still in place in the heart of downtown Toronto. *@FMEng* You may appreciate the humor. Our Electro-acousti PEng's logic is / was if he tried to maintain his rack as an iso-grounded rack at stage level immediately adjacent to the normally grounded racks someone would eventually lean something electrically conductive across the racks and potentially all manner of hums and noises would ensue. All of the items mounted on the front rails of our two A/V racks were capable of being bolted to the normally grounded racks with their internal circuitry capable of being grounded via an insulated terminal on their rear bonded with a yellow and green insulated 10 gauge copper conductor to our full height isolated copper ground bars. 
Toodleoo! 
Ron Hebbard


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## BillConnerFASTC (Oct 4, 2018)

BizmanUSA said:


> So does the GC have to take it in the shorts for the "upgrade" to the original seating spec? If so, I would put 24 hour guard eyes on the remaining work as I see a few short cuts on the horizon to lessen the financial blow to the GC.


I think they cover the additional cost and get out of liquidated damages for the delay. My guess is the replacement contractor and manufacturer they went to gave a little for future considerations on other work, and nothing wrong there. The CM has been very open in finding a replacement and included the owner, architect, and myself in the decision. Is it my first choice? No. But its a mainstream generally well regarded manufacturer and the seating contractor seems to be a thoughtful and conscientious family business.


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## Jay Ashworth (Oct 4, 2018)

Our house has 6 onstage, just into the wings, each of which has 4 Bates for the S4's on a dance light tower; our downstage tower plugs into a 4-outlet box on the DS wall.

Alas, they were installed 180 out of direction, so our cords have to hairpin going through the box lid.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Oct 4, 2018)

On feeding booms, I try to find a gallery or catwalk or some simple means of feeding from overhead. A drop box or soca pex drop was never light or easy from 50-80', but in an LED world its one 20 amp circuit and perhaps a dmx line, so pretty easy. I'd sure look hard at wireless dmx for booms - depending on the mission critical nature of the venue.

I just detest floor irregularities like plug boxes. And have opened too many to see then full of dirt (glitter and confetti as well) or some filled with water. And many are not working or have been abandoned in place - so why pay to have them installed? 

If you do a lot of dance, or regularly, I might try to make it work - but still prefer drops.


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## cfreeman91 (Oct 4, 2018)

That is awesome! I love when I go into a space and can see that there was someone "in the theatre world" on the project. It really makes a difference!

How in the world did you come to be a theater consultant? That sounds like a great job.


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## RonHebbard (Oct 4, 2018)

Jay Ashworth said:


> Our house has 6 onstage, just into the wings, each of which has 4 Bates for the S4's on a dance light tower; our downstage tower plugs into a 4-outlet box on the DS wall.
> 
> Alas, they were installed 180 out of direction, so our cords have to hairpin going through the box lid.


 *@Jay Ashworth* Would detaching the covers and reversing the boxes and / or their receptacle mounting plates be an insurmountable task??? 
Toodleoo! 
Ron Hebbard


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## BillConnerFASTC (Oct 4, 2018)

cfreeman91 said:


> That is awesome! I love when I go into a space and can see that there was someone "in the theatre world" on the project. It really makes a difference!
> 
> How in the world did you come to be a theater consultant? That sounds like a great job.



I had had courses in it - I think the only ones at that time - at Yale - taught by george Izenour. I graduated and was teaching at Bates College and Bill Warfel called and asked if I wanted to come to work for his consulting business. I said sure and started June 1, 1982. I would say at that time there were 50-75 theatre consultants in the US. Today, I think 200 or so.

I think a lot of folks fell into the business. It's really just like doing shows - only takes longer and "the set" is a lot more permanent, or expected to be. 

Go to https://theatreconsultants.org/, go to member roster, and contact some about openings. Passion for the theatre, good grasp of entertainment technology, good writing skills, CAD (I think mosty AutoCAD but l I bet Revit proficiency would get you a lot of offers), good people skills, and willingness to travel.


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## Jay Ashworth (Oct 6, 2018)

RonHebbard said:


> *@Jay Ashworth* Would detaching the covers and reversing the boxes and / or their receptacle mounting plates be an insurmountable task???



Probably not, but nothing's caught fire yet, so...


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## BillConnerFASTC (Jan 14, 2019)

Update after final site visit. A couple of general photos:


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## BillConnerFASTC (Jan 14, 2019)

I talked about trying to make legs and travelers on a deadhung stage a little more flexible and "retractable" for set up and cleaning and such. Some photosof how I did that here.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Jan 14, 2019)

One of two disappointements - the plates and stretchers on these chairs in wheelchair spaces not being painted a color that works better with chair and flooring. The entire first row is removable and its on concrete painted black - so look worse than these on carpet.





The other disappointment was I had all the lighting panels - relays and circuit breaker panels and such on the stage right mezzanine - nice and out of the way. The electrical engineer missed it and they all ended upon the stage right wall at stage level. No fixing that.


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## Jay Ashworth (Jan 14, 2019)

Nice space like that and it's deadhung?

Are those yellow side valances architectural or color-change?


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## BillConnerFASTC (Jan 14, 2019)

Jay Ashworth said:


> Nice space like that and it's deadhung?
> 
> Are those yellow side valances architectural or color-change?


Picture looks different. They are clear finished maple veneer ply. The photos at beginning of thread are more accurate. The architect's response to acoustical consultant's recommendation for some diffusion.


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## Jay Ashworth (Jan 15, 2019)

[ looks at early pix on other page ]

Ah, right. Got it.


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## TimMc (Jan 15, 2019)

The wrap/bags for the legs are brilliant, Bill!


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## BillConnerFASTC (Jan 15, 2019)

TimMc said:


> The wrap/bags for the legs are brilliant, Bill!


All good ideas - at least mine - seem to be a result of accidents. I was working on a new - already built - stage that was way too narrow - and it seemed taking tracks to walls to store curtains made sense. And I swagged it - the nylon webbing, snap hook, and eye-anchor in photos - to wall. Seeing them trussed up just cried for bags. I called for these but the final design credit goes to Beck Scenic Studios - great folks. These work better than the ones I did last time. I'm always relieved and happy when they are low bidder on my projects.


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