# Favorite FOH console for live sound festival applications



## tk2k (Nov 17, 2012)

Background: This is a mostly theoretical thread, 64 channels, separate monitor console. 
What's your favorite console to mix FOH for a live setting, with several bands and limited sound checks? What do you find has the best workflow?


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## avkid (Nov 17, 2012)

Analog: APB Dynasonics Spectra Ti 56 with expander
Digital: Soundcraft Vi6


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## Footer (Nov 17, 2012)

Being a festival, you want gear guys know. If you have to train anyone on the gear, it should not be there. Therefore, in analog world your choice is basically a Heritage 3k w/ DN360's, DBX or BSS Comps, Drawmer gates, Yamaha SPX, D-two, PCM 81, PCM 91, and XTA or Lake processing. 

Now, in real world, these days you would never run a festival analog. Therefore, the only answer is an AVID Venue D-Show simply because EVERYONE has a showfile for one, especially by the end of the summer.


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## chausman (Nov 17, 2012)

I would think a M7 would fit the "Everyone knows how to use it" criteria well. At least for monitors.


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## tk2k (Nov 17, 2012)

Footer,

To clarify, I mean in a situation where you, or your crew is mixing, and everyone magically had show files.


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## damjamkato (Nov 17, 2012)

chausman said:


> I would think a M7 would fit the "Everyone knows how to use it" criteria well. At least for monitors.



Well yes, everyone would know how to use it, but it certainly would not be my choice for the scenario.


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## Footer (Nov 18, 2012)

chausman said:


> I would think a M7 would fit the "Everyone knows how to use it" criteria well. At least for monitors.



First, I'll take the X32 I have onstage right now for monitor over the M7 any day just due to how it does sends on fader. 

and... AVID is quickly becoming that. Most guys who were stuck on analog did not jump away from analog until the Digi stuff really took off... even then some waited until Digico to jump. Right now people are dumping the AVID stuff to go with either Digico or the new Midas digital stuff... so, this market is every changing. 

And if we are in total fairy land, the best sounding digital console I have heard on the PA I know besides an XL4 is an SD7. So, SD7. I don't know how to run one... nor do most people but what the hell, right? There is a reason that Clair is trying to get rid of all of their AVID stuff in favor of Digico.


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## bishopthomas (Nov 18, 2012)

I still prefer an analog console in festival and monitor situations. I can glance at the entire console and see every single adjustment made to each channel in a split second. I love digitals when I only have one band and have time to soundcheck. Some of my favorite analog consoles are Midas Legend 3000, Soundcraft MH3, Heritage 3000...


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## mstaylor (Nov 18, 2012)

I don't mix shows but I see festivals run both digital and analog. I did a festival last year where the company supplied all digital boards. The main stage had two, one for the house, one for monitors. The monitor guy didn't know the board very well and spent the whole time struggling. The secondary stage only had one board and mixed monitors from FOH. That guy had no idea and periodically lost his monitor rig. It was an awful experience and needless to say they were taken off the bid list.


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## Footer (Nov 18, 2012)

bishopthomas said:


> I still prefer an analog console in festival and monitor situations. I can glance at the entire console and see every single adjustment made to each channel in a split second. I love digitals when I only have one band and have time to soundcheck. Some of my favorite analog consoles are Midas Legend 3000, Soundcraft MH3, Heritage 3000...



If you are running a festival where band checks.... band plays... stage turns over... band checks... etc analog is the way to go. However, if it is an everyone checks in the morning thing and you have 6 bands in 240 minutes, then digital is the only way to go. Trying to fit each band into 16-20 channels can be nearly impossible and sharing channels makes doing monitors nearly impossible. 

So, as with everything in this industry, it all depends on what you are trying achieve.


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## mstaylor (Nov 19, 2012)

Footer said:


> If you are running a festival where band checks.... band plays... stage turns over... band checks... etc analog is the way to go. However, if it is an everyone checks in the morning thing and you have 6 bands in 240 minutes, then digital is the only way to go. Trying to fit each band into 16-20 channels can be nearly impossible and sharing channels makes doing monitors nearly impossible.
> 
> So, as with everything in this industry, it all depends on what you are trying achieve.


Valid point, most festivals I do are set,check, play and leave. The important thing, especially with digital, is to have qualified guys to run it.


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## bishopthomas (Nov 19, 2012)

Footer said:


> If you are running a festival where band checks.... band plays... stage turns over... band checks... etc analog is the way to go. However, if it is an everyone checks in the morning thing and you have 6 bands in 240 minutes, then digital is the only way to go. Trying to fit each band into 16-20 channels can be nearly impossible and sharing channels makes doing monitors nearly impossible.
> 
> So, as with everything in this industry, it all depends on what you are trying achieve.



I completely agree. Although, to me the definition of a "festival" is that there is no soundcheck. If there is then it becomes a "show." Just because it's outside and multiple bands it's not really a festival in the sense of a "festival patch" and only quick line checks seconds before the act goes on. At least, that's how I perceive a festival.


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## museav (Nov 20, 2012)

tk2k said:


> To clarify, I mean in a situation where you, or your crew is mixing, and everyone magically had show files.


I generally associate a show file with a BE, is it realistic to expect many bands requiring 64 inputs and having show files to not also have their own BEs handling the mixing?


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## mstaylor (Nov 20, 2012)

bishopthomas said:


> I completely agree. Although, to me the definition of a "festival" is that there is no soundcheck. If there is then it becomes a "show." Just because it's outside and multiple bands it's not really a festival in the sense of a "festival patch" and only quick line checks seconds before the act goes on. At least, that's how I perceive a festival.


I do tons of festivals and although you don't do formal sound checks, you still go through the monitors and check them. As you go your house guy sets levels in the house. Then you fly and figure it out. I generally build 30 minutes to change band gear and set monitors.


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## bishopthomas (Nov 21, 2012)

mstaylor said:


> I do tons of festivals and although you don't do formal sound checks, you still go through the monitors and check them. As you go your house guy sets levels in the house. Then you fly and figure it out. I generally build 30 minutes to change band gear and set monitors.



Yep, typically referred to as a "line check." 30 minutes is a decent amount of time but it's usually far more than I ever get. Typically I'll have about 10 minutes between acts, so just getting gear on/off is tough to do, much less get any sort of line check. Monitor-wise, it's vocals only unless someone needs something specific (acoustic, keys, etc). During changeover those channels get reset to zero to be ready for different instrumentation and mixes.


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## mstaylor (Nov 21, 2012)

I work with a sound company that excels at walking bands through their monitors. As they check each mic or input he asks through the monitors who needs it. No answer it doesn't go in their mix. He is quite good at the five minute monitor check. Other guys let the band lead the check and it takes forever or it doesn't get done. As the stage manager I am there pushing them to get done.


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## bishopthomas (Nov 22, 2012)

Yeah, that's really the only way to do it. As the engineer you have to just take charge of the soundcheck. Musicians are like children.


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## deck (Nov 28, 2012)

I would say that I would like to use either a PM1D for front of house, or a Cadac J-Type. Monitors would probably be an M7 for its compatibility, and the layout. If the sky is the limit, I would use a LCS.


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## mstaylor (Nov 28, 2012)

I was thinking about this thread today. If I am going to be outside with no tent then I certainly want analog. If you can't read the screen you can't control a digital board. If you are in a tent or building then certainly digital is great.


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## avkid (Nov 28, 2012)

Have fun getting that Cadac to the festival...


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## Footer (Nov 28, 2012)

mstaylor said:


> I was thinking about this thread today. If I am going to be outside with no tent then I certainly want analog. If you can't read the screen you can't control a digital board. If you are in a tent or building then certainly digital is great.



If your outside in the sun... your going to be dead by the end of the day so the console you die on is moot.... 

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2


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## museav (Nov 29, 2012)

Footer said:


> If your outside in the sun... your going to be dead by the end of the day so the console you die on is moot....


You've been in NY long enough to know that the coldest days are very sunny days. One of the brightest, sunniest days that I recall was when I was out doing field surveys for strand mapping for a cable company and the wind chill that day was -75F, so you might be dead by the end of the day, we lasted a couple of hours before giving up, but probably not as you meant. You can't really equate it being sunny with a particular temperature and being able to read the screens can be a very real issue with some digital consoles.

Somewhat related, I once demoed several digital consoles for a Client where one of the their participants was blue-green color blind and he really struggled with some of the consoles. Lit versus not lit buttons and LEDs he could usually discern and some colors he saw much better than others but shades and combinations of blue, green and gray were very difficult for him to differentiate. The Avid Venue Profile's gray on gray controls, light green on gray LEDs and muted blue/gray/green color scheme screens that many may like made it just about impossible for him to use even in controlled lighting. Because on many of my projects there is no knowing who may be mixing, that experience has stuck with me and is something I consider in those situations.


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## deck (Nov 29, 2012)

avkid said:


> Have fun getting that Cadac to the festival...



It would be a pain to load it, but the sound quality would be worth it. The LCS would also be a great option


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## tk2k (Nov 30, 2012)

deck said:


> It would be a pain to load it, but the sound quality would be worth it. The LCS would also be a great option



Right, because the LCS is known for being such a road-worthy console.


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## museav (Nov 30, 2012)

And so many bands and BEs have familiarity with and/or files for Cadac and LCS, which are both well known in the theatre sound world but not at all common in the live sound world.

As Kyle noted earlier, a festival application is likely to be more about it being easy and simple than it is about absolute quality. There are some things to be said for a Yamaha PM or A&H GL in the analog world and Yamaha LS9/M7CL/PM5D or Avid Venue in the digital world for destival type applications as people are more likely to have worked with them. If you are not concerned about rider compliance or others operating the console then chances are you won't be getting show files or charts and you should probably focus on whatever is most comfortable for you.


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## waverunr (Jan 31, 2013)

Footer said:


> First, I'll take the X32 I have onstage right now for monitor over the M7 any day just due to how it does sends on fader.
> 
> and... AVID is quickly becoming that. Most guys who were stuck on analog did not jump away from analog until the Digi stuff really took off... even then some waited until Digico to jump. Right now people are dumping the AVID stuff to go with either Digico or the new Midas digital stuff... so, this market is every changing.
> 
> And if we are in total fairy land, the best sounding digital console I have heard on the PA I know besides an XL4 is an SD7. So, SD7. I don't know how to run one... nor do most people but what the hell, right? There is a reason that Clair is trying to get rid of all of their AVID stuff in favor of Digico.



I love my X32 and we are going to get a Producer when they ship in April. We do mostly festival work so the bands usually are working on better equipment than they ever have and we take control of the whole set from load in to load out. We direct the musicians and have also been able to stay pretty consistent with 15 minute stage turnovers. We were recently asked to bid a rider gig and I decided I would rent an SC48 for the rider acts, split the snake at the stage and let them run that console while we A) run CAT5 from the X32 on stage (monitors) to the Producer at FOH with a PC, or B) just run the PC wirelessly out front (like I do at most of my club gigs) and I will handle all the local acts from my gear. The X32 should gain some recogniton as a perfectly acceptable monitor console and except for lack of enough channels, a great little FOH board.


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## bishopthomas (Feb 1, 2013)

Waverunr - First and foremost, welcome to Control Booth! It seems that you do exactly the type of work where the X32 will shine. Although, I do not agree about it becoming a rider acceptable console, either for monitors or FOH. Back when I was touring as a BE I didn't have many specific requests, but rather what was NOT acceptable. Behringer and Mackie were specifically stated in the rider as UNACCEPTABLE gear. Consoles, outboard, graphic EQ ... And not necessarily because it's ALL crap, (I'll take a Behringer Comp/Gate over an ACP88 any day) but it's to weed out the lower end sound companies and/or venues. If they're using a Eurodesk chances are the rest of the PA is going to be on par (or worse). If it's a Heritage 3000 or PM5D then I know the rest of the rig is going to be of decent quality as well.

So, as far as the X32 being on riders any time soon, I just don't see it happening. It certainly won't be on any of mine, even though I like the console and plan on buying some of the new varieties once they finally start shipping.


Oh yeah, about using only the iPad at a festival... If you're dealing with riders then you'll probably have band engineers. They will require a physical console and not be too thrilled if you hand them an iPad. If you're already renting an SC48 you might as well just get another. Or if you must use the X32 put it on monitors. Most of the time if the band is only carrying one engineer it will be FOH and you'll be the one mixing monitors all day.


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