# Rental Clients and Food in the lobby



## gafftaper (Jan 21, 2018)

I'm really struggling with my rental policy for food and I thought I would throw this out to the wisdom of CB for advice. My theater seats 415 people and the lobby is about 300 square feet. When I first arrived in this position, groups were allowed to do whatever they wanted and the lobby would be full of catering warming ovens serving FANTASTIC Food, but creating huge messes with food in the lobby, messes from food snuck into the theater, and food debris on the patio. So I have been progressively restricting food further and further. Here's what my rider currently says about food: 

_*Food, Drink, and Candy are not allowed in the Theater*. Only bottled water is allowed in the theater, on stage, and in the greenroom. Simple handheld snacks and drinks such as candy, cookies, pastry, juice, and coffee, may be served to your audience in the lobby. You are not allowed to serve a “meal” to your audience. Any food requiring a full size plate and utensils may not be served. You may not serve anything requiring refrigeration or warming equipment. If you have any questions, ask the theater manager for approval about the snack you want to serve. You are allowed to serve food to the cast in the backstage hall way next to the greenroom. _

There are some cultures where serving a large meal is an important and expected part of every theater event. Unfortunately for me, there are a lot of people from one of these cultural groups in my area. So at least once a month I have a rental where we struggle with the food issue. I keep re-writing my policy hoping they will get what I want. But, instead these groups are always testing my boundaries trying to find new ways to get me to approve them to provide more food to their audiences. 

How do you deal with these things? How do I re-write my policy to be culturally sensitive, yet also get the point across that we don't allow anything but snacks the way I think of them? I would love to hear your thoughts.


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## Amiers (Jan 21, 2018)

Have them pitch a tent and eat outside?


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## cdiamondz (Jan 21, 2018)

Have groups that offer food items assist in cleaning?


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## JohnD (Jan 21, 2018)

Take a look at this:
https://www.doh.wa.gov/CommunityandEnvironment/Food/FoodWorkerandIndustry/FoodSafetyRules
Look at the Washington State Food Code Part 9.
You also could only allow food from approved vendors (who comply with the state rules) and are willing to abide with the venue restrictions and do proper event clean up.


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## gafftaper (Jan 21, 2018)

Amiers said:


> Have them pitch a tent and eat outside?


Principal of the school is adamant that they can do what they want in my PAC, but they are only renting my PAC. She wants no sign of anything on the outside of the school. 


cdiamondz said:


> Have groups that offer food items assist in cleaning?


It's just too small of a space... 
The Lobby


The hall that goes from the lobby past the backstage access to the rest of the school

You can't feed 400 people in that without a disaster!


JohnD said:


> Take a look at this:
> https://www.doh.wa.gov/CommunityandEnvironment/Food/FoodWorkerandIndustry/FoodSafetyRules
> Look at the Washington State Food Code Part 9.
> You also could only allow food from approved vendors (who comply with the state rules) and are willing to abide with the venue restrictions and do proper event clean up.


Unfortunately they always want to bring in legitimate caterers. So there's no legal angle there.


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## techieman33 (Jan 22, 2018)

Could you force them to rent the cafeteria for serving meals?


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## blueeyesdesigns (Jan 22, 2018)

Look into your local occupancy regulations. In most jurisdictions occupancy #'s are directly affected by the way the space is being used. If groups are setting up tables and serving meals, I suspect it will drop the legal occupancy of that space below your seating capacity. 

You might also want to implement an explicit and expensive cleaning fee for any mess left behind, including a clause that if extensive cleaning is needed it will be done by a vendor of your choice and billed back to the renter. It's not terribly uncommon and can often be a strong enough motivator.


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## venuetech (Jan 22, 2018)

Can they rent the cafeteria? Ours is close so they often move the food part of the event over there. Then kitchen access becomes a nightmare.


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## JJBerman (Jan 22, 2018)

At my PAC, we have the same basic rule as you stated in the original post.
We also have many groups that want to cater a full meal and require them to rent the cafeteria for the meal portion of the event.
All our facilities have a clause that the renters are responsible for the costs incurred to clean and restore after their event(s).

Many groups have started to like going to this option because the cafeteria is much cheaper than the PAC. By having the PAC event then meal, we can clean and close the PAC sooner dropping costs down.
My PAC also requires an extra technician as a floater for many events as much of our renters have last minute requests...
All costs are billed to user.

Also what does your fire marshall or ahj have to say about filling the lobby with tables and food? At my PAC we are allowed to put tables against the walls but that is it, giving another option to say no, because it creates a safety/egress hazard.


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## TheaterEd (Jan 22, 2018)

We have several of these events every year as well. They must rent the cafeteria and we charge them to have two custodians on duty throughout their event. They are also already paying for the PAC manager fee and at least one technician fee.


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## josh88 (Jan 22, 2018)

I know that fight and you're going about it the way I tried with my space, as a counterpoint for arguments sake, let them do food, but its $1500 more to the cost if they do. Don't scare them away with it but a huge sum of money does a good job of getting what you want across to people, and hey if they somehow say ok, you just make sure whatever your price is offsets the hassle.

There was one group of renters I used to have that I despised working with, they were needy, didnt pay attention to the contract and repeatedly asked for allowances and items that should have been specified in advance. I upped my rate by $15 dollars an hour on a whim assuming I'd just hire it out to someone else to run when they balked at my price. But they liked me enough that they were ok with it and suddenly walking away with $600 more in my pocket than the last time they came, meant I could deal with their hassle.


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## gafftaper (Jan 24, 2018)

techieman33 said:


> Could you force them to rent the cafeteria for serving meals?


That's my standard first step, but unfortunatley it's rarely available for community rentals.


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## gafftaper (Jan 24, 2018)

Thanks for the thoughts... at least I know I'm not alone. 


gafftaper said:


> That's my standard first step, but unfortunatley it's rarely available for community rentals.


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## TheaterEd (Jan 24, 2018)

gafftaper said:


> Thanks for the thoughts... at least I know I'm not alone.


I can't tell if you're replying to yourself to signify that you really do feel all alone, or if Tuesday was just a long day at the office 

But yeah, I get a call about one of these events about every other week. I'm lucky though in that my school doesn't allow rental for dance recitals, so that takes care of most of them. Still host two to four cultural variety shows with meals per year though...


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## RonHebbard (Jan 24, 2018)

TheaterEd said:


> I can't tell if you're replying to yourself to signify that you really do feel all alone, or if Tuesday was just a long day at the office
> 
> But yeah, I get a call about one of these events about every other week. I'm lucky though in that my school doesn't allow rental for dance recitals, so that takes care of most of them. Still host two to four cultural variety shows with meals per year though...


 @TheaterEd *No dance recitals?* Tell me they don't rent to body builders and I'm going to be certain you're leading a charmed life. 
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.


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## NickVon (Jan 24, 2018)

That is a very well worded rider regarding food. And I'm going to steal it!  I sometimes have events that request such "food considerations" and my answer is usually just no. If they go for the better to ask forgiveness then permission route, I instantly keep their security deposit (which for us covers mess and additional time in space for them to clean up.) We try not to bill after the fact for groups that go over allotted time. And then I know for next time after a noting it my records.

Luckily for me my lobby is small for our 300 seat theater, and I would love to have that lobby space you have. (you could have like a whole kick ball game in there) My lobby squeezes about 50 people and that is shoulder to shoulder (NYC Rush Hour subway) kinda of personal space. Because of our space limitations at most we set up a 5'ft table for additional selling of food, etc.

Do you provide tables for catering or do they bring their own? If you indicate that no additional tables can be setup in the lobby beyond "__________________" will that help curb or lessen the hugeness of meal food that happens? Kinda keeping it to Chicken Tenders and Zitti by limiting the amount of tables that are allowed?

You could stipulate menus must be approved by Venue prior to rental contact? (keep messy food items out)


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## TheaterEd (Jan 24, 2018)

RonHebbard said:


> @TheaterEd *No dance recitals?* Tell me they don't rent to body builders and I'm going to be certain you're leading a charmed life.
> Toodleoo!
> Ron Hebbard.


Definitely no body builders. I'm in a pretty small town and have heard WAY too many horror stories from you all.. Charmed Indeed!!! My last job involved many dress recitals. I do not miss them even a little.


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## gafftaper (Jan 24, 2018)

@RonHebbard I'm guessing @TheaterEd is referring to a private dance recital performance by a young girl that is common in Indian culture called a "arangetram". It's the equivalent of a Bat Mitzvah or Quincanera. We get those requests all the time. In my case we don't rent to private parties so we avoid them.


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## Charles Heetbrink (Jan 24, 2018)

gafftaper said:


> I'm really struggling with my rental policy for food and I thought I would throw this out to the wisdom of CB for advice. My theater seats 415 people and the lobby is about 300 square feet. When I first arrived in this position, groups were allowed to do whatever they wanted and the lobby would be full of catering warming ovens serving FANTASTIC Food, but creating huge messes with food in the lobby, messes from food snuck into the theater, and food debris on the patio. So I have been progressively restricting food further and further. Here's what my rider currently says about food:
> 
> _*Food, Drink, and Candy are not allowed in the Theater*. Only bottled water is allowed in the theater, on stage, and in the greenroom. Simple handheld snacks and drinks such as candy, cookies, pastry, juice, and coffee, may be served to your audience in the lobby. You are not allowed to serve a “meal” to your audience. Any food requiring a full size plate and utensils may not be served. You may not serve anything requiring refrigeration or warming equipment. If you have any questions, ask the theater manager for approval about the snack you want to serve. You are allowed to serve food to the cast in the backstage hall way next to the greenroom. _
> 
> ...




Include a large rental deposit if renters want to serve food. The damage deposit becomes non-refundable if extracleanup is required (Make sure it covers the cleanup cost, carpet cleaning, seat cleaning/wipedown, rental revenue loss due to clean-up time, and a little extra to make you feel better.


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## TheaterEd (Jan 24, 2018)

gafftaper said:


> @RonHebbard I'm guessing @TheaterEd is referring to a private dance recital performance by a young girl that is common in Indian culture called a "arangetram". It's the equivalent of a Bat Mitzvah or Quincanera. We get those requests all the time. In my case we don't rent to private parties so we avoid them.


Both actually. A dance recital came through here before I worked here and messed up the floor in their old aud, so they put a blanket ban on all recitals. The policy's are actually up for review right now so I literally just ten minutes ago added dance recitals and body building competitions to the banned user groups list....


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## RonHebbard (Jan 24, 2018)

TheaterEd said:


> Both actually. A dance recital came through here before I worked here and messed up the floor in their old aud, so they put a blanket ban on all recitals. The policy's are actually up for review right now so I literally just ten minutes ago added dance recitals and body building competitions to the banned user groups list....


 @TheaterEd Solo violin recitals; No problem. Solo piano recitals; A bit more work but few real problems. Competitive body builders; You've got to hang around for hours waiting the last competitor to produce their urine sample before you can lock up and depart plus the aroma of coconut oil remains in your dressing rooms for a week to ten days. And then there are SPEBSQSA (*S*ociety for the *P*reservation and *E*ncouragement of *B*arber *S*hop *Q*uartet *S*inging in *A*merica) competitions and they're an entirely different entity and strain on your brain unto themselves. 
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.


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## derekleffew (Jan 24, 2018)

RonHebbard said:


> ...Competitive body builders; ...


Plus, I've never seen more "stage mother"-ish behavior than with bodybuilders' "buddies." Made me want to run backstage screaming, "Sing out, Louise."


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## kendal69 (Jan 24, 2018)

This is simple. Charge them a $15,000.00 deposit CASH up front as a cleaning deposit. After the event, if it's filthy you contract the worlds most expensive cleaning crew to make the are perfect, pay the bill and return the remainder to the renter. I can guarantee that will stop anyone from asking about bringing in food. Actually, you should be getting HUGE deposits no matter what event comes in because they all potentially need cleaning, but the "added" 15K for food and beverage would curtail that anyway.


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## MNicolai (Jan 24, 2018)

kendal69 said:


> This is simple. Charge them a $15,000.00 deposit CASH up front as a cleaning deposit. After the event, if it's filthy you contract the worlds most expensive cleaning crew to make the are perfect, pay the bill and return the remainder to the renter. I can guarantee that will stop anyone from asking about bringing in food. Actually, you should be getting HUGE deposits no matter what event comes in because they all potentially need cleaning, but the "added" 15K for food and beverage would curtail that anyway.



In principle, sure. In practice, this is a good way to offend a regular client and make sure they never come back. Some clients need a good slap on the wrist, but a suckerpunch to the windpipe can kill future business. Unless you're already turning down business left and right and there's a waiting list to book your venue, you're better off in the long-term adapting your clients to your venue as best as possible so there are fewer hiccups when they do their annual dance recital you've hosted for them 4 years in a row.

It's not like it was 15 years ago where theaters were few and far between. Many new high schools are being built with rentable venues. Competition for business even at the non-profit community level can be aggressive. If the rental groups are local you also can get in hot water by dropping heavy fees on clients. In this case that's effectively the school district lodging those fees. That can turn into a public "why is my taxpayer money..." letter-writing campaign in a heartbeat.

I'm not saying don't protect your venue's interests, but many people are not afforded the luxury of being able to tell off whomever they want under cover of a contract the dance mom who went glitter-crazy had no knowledge or understanding of.


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## jdenora (Jan 25, 2018)

kendal69 said:


> This is simple. Charge them a $15,000.00 deposit CASH up front as a cleaning deposit. After the event, if it's filthy you contract the worlds most expensive cleaning crew to make the are perfect, pay the bill and return the remainder to the renter. I can guarantee that will stop anyone from asking about bringing in food. Actually, you should be getting HUGE deposits no matter what event comes in because they all potentially need cleaning, but the "added" 15K for food and beverage would curtail that anyway.


kendal, you'e got the right idea. Nothing motivates people to do what you want them to do like money. But I think $15K is probably a bit on the high side. Maybe $1,000 or $1,500 makes more sense considering the size of the space. It is also advisable to take a credit card in the event the cleaning deposit does not cover the amount of damage done. For some groups, they will bring in their own mop brigade if it means getting 1,500 bucks back.


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## TimMc (Jan 25, 2018)

If this problem is with the group I'm thinking of, raising the deposit or cleaning fee will not discourage them as they WILL come up with the funding. If the venue board (or municipal government, if so owned) is senstive to the "optics" of how this might play out a better option might be to require all food service to be provided from permitted/licensed facilities only, with the caterer responsible for all clean up in the serving area and the client responsible for all other cleaning/damages.

Another option is for the venue to enter into an exclusive catering agreement with a provider. If the client wants food they use the contracted caterer or they have to buy out the contractor's interest for that event. Our local PAC is municipaly owned and has a long history of hosting ethnic events. The PAC has an exclusive catering agreement and 2 events have chosen to buy out the caterer (at a significant cost) and one event has moved to another venue.


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## egilson1 (Jan 25, 2018)

Maybe create an approved vendor list that includes caterers that you trust to clean up and not create more work for you. Then the renter must choose from that vendor list if they want real food served in the lobby.


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## RonHebbard (Jan 25, 2018)

egilson1 said:


> Maybe create an approved vendor list that includes caterers that you trust to clean up and not create more work for you. Then the renter must choose from that vendor list if they want real food served in the lobby.


 @gafftaper et al; Cleaning a terrazzo or porcelain tile lobby floor is one thing and Joe Shmo's cleaners aren't likely to do much irreversible damage to it. Personally, I'd be more concerned with satisfactory cleaning of fine upholstered seats within your soft-seater. This is where I'd want a guarantee of timely proper cleaning by known professionals. 
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.


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## StradivariusBone (Jan 25, 2018)

We run into this from time to time as well. Our standing policy is that you can pretty much do as you will in our lobby (which is around the same SQFT as your's from the looks of things, Gaff), but food/drink is not permitted in the house. I'm very frank and upfront with our clients that they respect this and encourage audience members to keep it out. I then always follow up with saying I totally understand there will be a few bad eggs that sneak stuff in and that I'm cool with it as long as they help us out as best they can. This usually gets them to feel like we're on the same team with the issue and I've rarely had an event with food where the clients weren't cleaning up the lobby and house at the end of the night. I do generally try and encourage them to do banquet or large-scale dining in our cafeteria or at the Shriner's hall across the street, but that does incur another cost which is discouraging for many.

For the deposit and vendor thoughts, at least for us that's not feasible. Our district handles those sorts of arrangements (our damage waiver is $200) and I personally wouldn't want to encourage a vendor agreement for catering as I feel that it would only lead to using more catering for events. In my experience with the vendor agreements it seems what is good for the goose is not great for the gander and they seem tailored to needs outside our own. 

It's a fine line to walk, but I generally find the best policy is to just be honest and direct with the client. Express your concerns, build the relationship and hope for the best. Most of the time they don't want to be seen as the messy renter at least in my experience.


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## gafftaper (Jan 26, 2018)

Charles Heetbrink said:


> Include a large rental deposit if renters want to serve food. The damage deposit becomes non-refundable if extracleanup is required (Make sure it covers the cleanup cost, carpet cleaning, seat cleaning/wipedown, rental revenue loss due to clean-up time, and a little extra to make you feel better.



I'm not allowed to do that. District rules. We don't have a damage deposit. We don't even officially have a banned group list, unless someone fails to pay and we send them to collections the district says we are supposed to keep renting to them.


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## gafftaper (Jan 26, 2018)

NickVon said:


> You could stipulate menus must be approved by Venue prior to rental contact? (keep messy food items out)


I really like that idea.


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## venuetech (Jan 26, 2018)

Come up with a square foot serving area limit, (1 or 2, 8’ tables). Add extra trash cans. (Questions: at what point is a health inspection required for a food serving area? What sanitation rules/requirements apply to the situation?) perhaps you should discuss issues with the heath department, just to get a better understanding. They could likely give you some guidelines.


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## Craig Hauber (Feb 2, 2018)

gafftaper said:


> I'm really struggling with my rental policy for food and I thought I would throw this out to the wisdom of CB for advice. My theater seats 415 people and the lobby is about 300 square feet. When I first arrived in this position, groups were allowed to do whatever they wanted and the lobby would be full of catering warming ovens serving FANTASTIC Food, but creating huge messes with food in the lobby, messes from food snuck into the theater, and food debris on the patio. So I have been progressively restricting food further and further. Here's what my rider currently says about food:
> 
> _*Food, Drink, and Candy are not allowed in the Theater*. Only bottled water is allowed in the theater, on stage, and in the greenroom. Simple handheld snacks and drinks such as candy, cookies, pastry, juice, and coffee, may be served to your audience in the lobby. You are not allowed to serve a “meal” to your audience. Any food requiring a full size plate and utensils may not be served. You may not serve anything requiring refrigeration or warming equipment. If you have any questions, ask the theater manager for approval about the snack you want to serve. You are allowed to serve food to the cast in the backstage hall way next to the greenroom. _
> 
> ...


Call your local commercial cleaning contractor (Servicemaster etc..) Have them write up a quote for full cleaning of the facility in the worst-case scenario.
That is now your official "deposit" amount for anyone using your facility for catering.
If you don't need those services because they cleaned-up after themselves the deposit gets refunded.
If they do, then one phone call is all that's required and you get a thorough and professional cleaning job without lifting a finger -for essentially "free"


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## MightyRedDevil (Feb 2, 2018)

gafftaper said:


> Principal of the school is adamant that they can do what they want in my PAC, but they are only renting my PAC. She wants no sign of anything on the outside of the school.



This seems to be part of the problem. Is there a way that you can convince your principal that if she wants the group to have this option that a custodian needs to be there to assist with clean up? Is there any way that you can include a custodian in the rental cost? Our custodians need to be at all rentals and they get paid time and a half. Maybe that cost would be enough to bring attention to the issue, both for the client and for the school.

Part of me would want to go the childish route and just leave the mess until school the next day. When the custodians complain to the administrator about it, maybe they'll start to listen?


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