# Bad Install...



## Eboy87 (May 4, 2014)

A friend passed this along to me recently. Venue is a new theatre in the CPS. I was also told the band shell linesets were attached to the arbor with crosbies as well. Don't know if other lines were slack like the middle one.





Apparently this is isn't the only problem the venue has. Yeah...


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## MNicolai (May 4, 2014)

May or may not be a poor install. Could be the batten got snagged on an end and caused a couple of the lines to go slack. Seen that before where someone pulls on the purchase line until they can't pull any further (because of the snag), calls it good enough, and takes a couple hours for anyone to notice the slacked off lines or the batten caught up in some cables or on some scenery.

Could also be someone mucked up the trim chains and the batten isn't sufficiently leveled out. Could also be that the batten is loaded such that it's deflecting near some lift lines but not others, causing some lines to be taking the brunt of the load and others are just there for the ride (though that seems like a wee bit much slack for that to be the case here).

Depending on how recent the install was and if the issues are how everything was installed, I'd press the rigging contractor to come in and fix it. Can't rule out user error though based on just this photo, at least for the slacked off lines.


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## VCTMike (May 4, 2014)

Are those the band shell lines in the upper left (next arbor over) with the crosby's one them?


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## LavaASU (May 5, 2014)

MNicolai said:


> May or may not be a poor install. Could be the batten got snagged on an end and caused a couple of the lines to go slack.
> 
> Could also be someone mucked up the trim chains and the batten isn't sufficiently leveled out. Could also be that the batten is loaded such that it's deflecting near some lift lines but not others, causing some lines to be taking the brunt of the load and others are just there for the ride (though that seems like a wee bit much slack for that to be the case here).



Couldn't agree more. While there shouldn't be slack in any of the lift lines, theres a lot of possible causes. Also, what looks like a massive amount of slack really is very little length difference... that could be 1" or less total slack in that line. I had one not too long ago that makes that look like nothing... it was maybe 2-3" of slack on one of our lift lines. Inspected the entire cable path, no issues, eventually figured out it was a slight bend in the batten which had rolled since it was trimmed (yes, the bend has been inspected, documented, and is not a safety issue).


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## Russ (May 5, 2014)

Good Morning-
In my opinion, this is likely a common occurrence that I have seen quite often over the years. This usually happens on the shortest lift line of a line set. When the batten is empty and it's flown all the way out so the arbor is down, the vertical weight of the lift line that is on the offstage side of the head block can be heavy enough that it slightly lifts the batten end. The location where this lift line attaches to the arbor would also indicate that it is one of the end lift lines.
This doesn't mean that someone should not have a look at it to make sure everything is okay however.


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## BillConnerFASTC (May 5, 2014)

VCTMike said:


> Are those the band shell lines in the upper left (next arbor over) with the crosby's one them?


No. The shell is motorized dead haul - no arbors. I'm guessing because it's kind of full and banded it's an intermediate traveler. Arbors are 6' but I think 7" wide weights - 1300 pounds when full.

PS: I am obviously in error here, having misidentified the installation as one of mine, and I now know it is a different one. I'm guessing that is the shell set and uses clips instead of swages because the lines are 3/8".


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## Eboy87 (May 5, 2014)

Bill, what's your take on using Crosbys for attaching the lift lines to the arbors as opposed to nicropess sleeve?? 

My first thought on that slack line was that one of the battens just wasn't trimmed correctly as well, so it very well may be that, or the rolled line.


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## BillConnerFASTC (May 5, 2014)

Probably for 10-15 years I specified drop forged steel cable clips - Crosbies. It's only been the last 15-20 that I have allowed malleable copper oval sleeve fittings - nicopress. (I have not ever specified clove hitches and friction tape - which was accepted industry practice for years) It's not a real concern for me - especially on 1/4" wire rope at 10:1 design factors. 80% seems insignificant - when you look at that set that I think I know and is 7 - 1/4" lines - around 50,000 pounds at breaking strength - so even derated to 40,000 - seems plenty safe with a maximum arbor capacity of 1300. Even one line with breaking strength derated to 80% of 7000 or 5600 is still 4+ times the max load.

Frankly, if the photo is the project I'm thinking of, something has changed, because I don't recall crosbies anywhere. Maybe it isn't the school i'm thinking of. Like I was told a long time ago - paint it all black and you can't tell whose equipment it is.


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## BillConnerFASTC (May 5, 2014)

I should have looked for more signs. Disregard my specific comments - unless someone changed all the arbor shoes - its not the project I thought it was. I'm pretty sure that is not Clancy hardware. And the photos of the project I was thinking of clearly show the wall is block, not poured or smooth. Sigh of relief.

More on Crosbies - like I said - I rarely see them - but in looking at my photos of another CPS project I did design - I see that the transition from roller chain to 3/8" wire rope uses a Crosby clamps. I suspect that is because of the significantly more expensive and rarely used crimp tool required for 3/8"?


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## gafftapegreenia (May 5, 2014)

I don't have a problem with real Crosbies - if used correctly. I feel that for every Crosbies installed wrong, somewhere out there is also a swage sleeve installed wrong as well. 

Who out there has a 3/8 swage tool in their shop? The cheapest hydraulic ones are still several thousands of dollars. 


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## Christopher Cook (May 5, 2014)

I would mirror what other have said. The slack most likely due to the batten getting hung up on another line and bent the batten. Rigging looks like mine which was done by Custom Rigging Systems out of North Carolina. Last thing I was told is that they are no longer a company. I have crosby's with a safety pin.


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## BillESC (May 5, 2014)

Doesn't get any worse than this . . .


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## VCTMike (May 5, 2014)

BillESC said:


> Doesn't get any worse than this . . .



Well at least they have *some* of the correct hardware (even if it's not properly installed)...


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## Christopher Cook (May 5, 2014)

Is that one of those cut the rope and watch It fall models?


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## JohnD (May 6, 2014)

After seeing the pic that BillESC posted (again, old favorite) I do wonder, is it currently legal to build a new hemp house?


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## gafftapegreenia (May 6, 2014)

JohnD said:


> After seeing the pic that BillESC posted (again, old favorite) I do wonder, is it currently legal to build a new hemp house?



Well, for one, thats not a hemp house, thats a very poor attempt at a counterweight system that uses hemp for the hand lines. Second, I don't see why a hemp house would be illegal. Sure, its impractical to build a hemp and sandbag only house, but a pinrail and hemp setup to complement a counterweight system can be very useful.


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## StradivariusBone (May 6, 2014)

BillESC said:


> Doesn't get any worse than this . . .



I think I saw this episode of Gilligan's Island. Although I thought the Professor used coconuts instead of bricks.


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## sk8rsdad (May 6, 2014)

Did anybody else notice all the dead horses with saddles on them? I think all the clips are reversed.


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## kicknargel (May 6, 2014)

As gafftapegreenia points out, "hemp house" actually refers to a pin rail and sandbag rigging system, regardless of the type of rope used. I spent years in a hemp house, but all the ropes were Stage Set X.

It's tons of fun, BTW.


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## Ted jones (May 6, 2014)

Gafftapegreenia,

Re: 3/8 NicoPress. We have one here. You can rent them from various sources.

Ted


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## Christopher Cook (May 7, 2014)

sk8rsdad said:


> Did anybody else notice all the dead horses with saddles on them? I think all the clips are reversed.


just looks like it is twisted. 

Edit: I take that back, yup.


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## BillConnerFASTC (May 7, 2014)

It's hard to see but even harder to dignify the whole concept with a comment.


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## Eboy87 (May 7, 2014)

BillConnerASTC said:


> It's hard to see but even harder to dignify the whole concept with a comment.



I don't know, the Gilligan's Island comment seemed to sum it up best.


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## StradivariusBone (May 7, 2014)

Eboy87 said:


> I don't know, the Gilligan's Island comment seemed to sum it up best.



Just sit right back 
and you'll hear a tale,
A tale of a fateful trip.
It started at the Home Depot,
for Chinese cable clips.

The rigger was a drama dad
His daughter in the play
Five flats he sent aloft that night
With hardware from eBay.
Hardware from eBay.

The HVAC started getting rough
The tiny flats were tossed
In spite of the courage 
of the brave stage dad
The opening would be lost
opening would be lost.






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## BillConnerFASTC (May 7, 2014)

Excellent! Bravo Strad.


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## FatherMurphy (May 11, 2014)

BillESC said:


> Doesn't get any worse than this . . .



Yes, it does....




Inside that length of stovepipe is sand and cast iron window sash weights. I wrote a report in 1993 or 1994 telling the guys who ran this theater to remove it immediately - I was finally called in to remove it this past January, when they noticed the ropes were finally breaking.

I should probably write a thread just for this theater someday - it's just jaw-dropping. The only saving grace of this space (and it's a slender one) is that it's a Masonic auditorium that rarely is open to the public.


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## Eboy87 (May 11, 2014)

@FatherMurphy, that reminded me of something I found my first job out of college. The company I was with was contracted to bring in lighting for a wedding reception at a Shriner's temple. We were dropping LED bars along a wall for uplighting and asked for power. One of the girls on the crew asked if she should use the power provided 'cause it looked sketch. I walked over and found this.




Apparently their idea of "power drop" was 70' of zip cord with duplex edisons spliced in every 10 feet. No boxes, just the outlets and e-tape. 

We charged extra and brought our own cable package.


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## Jay Ashworth (May 11, 2014)

Aw, c'mon Strad, you only hadda write one more verse...

Sent from my SPH-L720


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## Vega (May 11, 2014)

The TD at the school where I work has told me that ages ago, before the place was dead-hung, the rigging was weighted with a sandbag, an anvil and a machinist's vise, and you still had to pull like hell. I would love to see pictures of that system.


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## StradivariusBone (May 12, 2014)

Jay Ashworth said:


> Aw, c'mon Strad, you only hadda write one more verse...



Sorry, Jay. I was actually doing that in the midst of one of our many interminable band/orchestra/chorus/kazoo concerts. Is May over yet? 


> Just sit right back
> and you'll hear a tale,
> A tale of a fateful trip.
> It started at the Home Depot,
> ...



The set crashed down 
on the deck of this small cafetorium
with Drama Dad
and a Stage Mom too
The Principal and his Wife
The Diva Lead
The Director and Non-Union Hands
Here on Stagecrafter's Isle!


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## Jay Ashworth (May 12, 2014)

Thank you. 

Sent from my SPH-L720


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## Jay Ashworth (May 12, 2014)

And also for skipping "and the rest".

Sent from my SPH-L720


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## StradivariusBone (May 12, 2014)

Jay Ashworth said:


> And also for skipping "and the rest".
> 
> Sent from my SPH-L720



I was always a Mary Ann guy. Ginger's too high-maintenance.


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