# A sad state of theatre planning...



## BillConnerFASTC (Nov 5, 2017)

I've been working on a project and have not understood the source of so many bad theatre planning and design ideas from the architect and engineers. Then started touring some schools with a reputation for "good" auditorium and stages. Oh my. Explains why the mechanical engineer didn't understand my concerns as the comparable schools all have what I would call a dull roar background noise. You couple that with very dead acoustics - Rt's in the 1 second range where as most projects I work on strive for 1.5 to 1.8 - and its tough to make the case for good design. Orchestra pits that seem a mile deep with 4' high conductor platforms. I could list so many more common shortcomings. Its not budget, its not understanding the basics and priorities. (For some idea, see my article here: https://www.controlbooth.com/resour...lanning-and-designing-high-school-theatres.6/)

There are more auditoriums and stages designed and built for high schools in this country than any other market segment. Maybe more high school than all other segments of the performing arts market combined. And so many suffer from poor planning. We need to figure out how to change this.


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## Amiers (Nov 5, 2017)

Well it does seem you are on the forefront of all of this. What ever happen to that website project you wanted to launch last year(year before) that dealt with major planning/design/building? I feel like you should bring that back and make a go at it. God knows you got the knowledge and know how to pull it all off.


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## Quillons (Nov 5, 2017)

Are theaters included in RS Means data?

I've been sitting in on an "Introduction to Construction" class intended for fourth-year civil and architectural engineers and using RS Means data was something we did for a week or two. It's tables upon tables of averaged data, so that if you got a job for a medical office building, you can decide what materials you're going to use, and then go to the proper table and look up how much it'll (on average) cost per square foot. You have to adjust for a whole bunch of things after that, but the tables give you a starting point.

If a CivEng doesn't have that data, they will probably pick what they think is the next nearest type of building and may or may not be wildly off. I'll ask that professor when I see him this week, but that might be the start of where things are going wrong.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Nov 5, 2017)

Means has some data - assembly, auditorium, maybe stage - IIRC - but I have always found it meaningless. It takes into account all those awful buildings that don't work very well and set a very low bar - and includes them.

A good high school auditorium and stage is frightfully expensive. I take spending millions of tax dollars very seriously in my work but doesn't bother me if someone says the auditorium cost $500 or 600 sq ft and the classrooms cost $250-300. They are the living room of schools, maybe more used by the community than any other space - obviously vying with the gym. But ultimately how do students learn about the performing arts in a crummy room where they can't see nor hear well? The communities would not tolerate similar indignities to athletic facilities, like cutting resilient floors, insufficient lighting, bleachers from which you cannot see, or baskets and goal posts too short.


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## RonHebbard (Nov 5, 2017)

Amiers said:


> Well it does seem you are on the forefront of all of this. What ever happen to that website project you wanted to launch last year(year before) that dealt with major planning/design/building? I feel like you should bring that back and make a go at it. God knows you got the knowledge and know how to pull it all off.


@BillConnerFASTC @Amiers * Posting in support:* There's certainly enough exposure and credible support available to @BillConnerFASTC here to offer comments and supporting voices / votes and a certain amount of "peer review" to keep things honest and upfront. 
*Thoughts? Comments?* I suspect if you posted for support, folks would pile on in your favor. [And proof-read for free besides.]
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.


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## peacefulone61 (Nov 5, 2017)

My town just built a new high school including a performing arts center. I went to the planning meetings and begged them to at least talk to a consultant like they were doing for the Feild House. Their response is that "a theatre is easy to build, no moving parts or complex planning, while an athletics center has so much that makes it up" They got a great gym, the theatre is outfitted with Chauvet DJ lights a fly system the comes down in the middle of the wing Making the wing utterly useless and a speaker setup that causes feedback no matter where you are on stage or in the house


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## RonHebbard (Nov 5, 2017)

peacefulone61 said:


> My town just built a new high school including a performing arts center. I went to the planning meetings and begged them to at least talk to a consultant like they were doing for the Field House. Their response is that "a theatre is easy to build, no moving parts or complex planning, while an athletics center has so much that makes it up" They got a great gym, the theatre is outfitted with Chauvet DJ lights a fly system that comes down in the middle of the wing Making the wing utterly useless and a speaker setup that causes feedback no matter where you are on stage or in the house


@peacefulone61 *Posting in support.* All too many times I've heard general contractors bidding their first theatre saying things like "How hard can it be? It's just a building with a big empty room full of seats in the middle?" Interesting how few successful first bidders return to bid a second or third theatre. Almost as interesting as how many general contractors a successful A/V contractor of my acquaintance chooses NEVER to work with again.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Nov 5, 2017)

So how do we as advocates for the performing arts make planners understand they need expertise in planning buildings for the performing arts, like they did for athletics at peacefulone61's school? 

It may go to school board elections and getting an advocate elected and hopefully an outspoken one. 

I'm told Texas has a law that requires spending as much on arts as on athletics in public schools, and looking at some Texas schools it seems very possible. (The followspots bought for the theatre being in the football stadium for player entrances not withstanding.)


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## SteveB (Nov 5, 2017)

I have heard many times from our contractors “how complicated a Theater is”. Well, yup. 

In the next few weeks we will find out how much they didn’t get correct.


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## RonHebbard (Nov 5, 2017)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> So how do we as advocates for the performing arts make planners understand they need expertise in planning buildings for the performing arts, like they did for athletics at peacefulone61's school?
> 
> It may go to school board elections and getting an advocate elected and hopefully an outspoken one.
> 
> I'm told Texas has a law that requires spending as much on arts as on athletics in public schools, and looking at some Texas schools it seems very possible. (The followspots bought for the theatre being in the football stadium for player entrances not withstanding.)


Perhaps we can impose upon @Stevens R. Miller to engage equal quantities of his legal and theatrical neurons in support of your query?
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Nov 5, 2017)

Theatres are about the toughest building type there is. The long spans and tall spaces make it harder than spaces with more systems - like hospitals - but easy to slip in a fat wall wherever you need it for a system in a hospital. No so easy in a theatre where sightlines and acoustics come into play. 

And as users we tend to take these parts of schools more personally, unlike an administrator or math teacher, who only wants a good blackboard or whatever today's equivalent is.

Churches are worse actually, elements like theatres but not only do users take it personally, some if the money is theirs.


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## gafftapegreenia (Nov 5, 2017)

Ok, please forgive my ignorance, but why is every educational theatre project so custom and unique? I guess I'm just surprised that some more standardized designs or at least design elements have not become the norm. From my perspective it seems like reinventing the wheel on every project. As I said, forgive my ignorance, but is there not at least some sort of "best practice guide" to building education theatre spaces?


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## BillConnerFASTC (Nov 5, 2017)

Seating count needs vary. Size of school varies from for me fromm 100 to 5000 in 9 to 12. The relative strength and priority of the different programs affects the design. A school with a former phys ed teacher as superintendent versus a band director has a huge impact. What they have currently sways opinion and design. And budget maybe most of all. 

I stick with same principles but have to adjust for every project, and they do become unique.


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## chausman (Nov 6, 2017)

gafftapegreenia said:


> Ok, please forgive my ignorance, but why is every educational theatre project so custom and unique? I guess I'm just surprised that some more standardized designs or at least design elements have not become the norm. From my perspective it seems like reinventing the wheel on every project. As I said, forgive my ignorance, but is there not at least some sort of "best practice guide" to building education theatre spaces?



They did that in Spokane. My high school theater became the basis for two more designed by the same firm, then our sister school got renovated to be very similar to ours. Now they all have very similar drawbacks and frustrations. They likely would've been better of trying to come up with something that fit better in those particular buildings than sticking ours in that space. Especially since the rest of the building is are drastically different.


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## MNicolai (Nov 6, 2017)

Architects do try to reuse, as do some of the larger school districts that build schools more regularly have a pretty good idea what they're looking for. Unfortunately, usually the design is reused verbatim and all of the earlier mistakes are repeated rather than corrected, or the design is pushed into a corner because of footprint, budget, or program constraints and they would've been better right-sizing a new design for that school. Part of the issue here is that the parties involved in building schools might build a larger theater only every few years and by the time they get onto the next one have forgotten some of their previous lessons. Internally, architects have been promoted or moved onto another firm.

I can't speak to how other regions have been affected, but down here in south FL, many of the more experienced architects and engineers retired, relocated, or changed careers after 2008 and most have not come back. Business is booming and skilled design and construction labor is hard to find. Every project is fast-tracked and construction costs are up to meet demand. Lot of the A/E teams are trending younger than they used to. Not only is some of the institutional wisdom gone about how to design certain rooms/projects -- it's also gone about to manage clients and stakeholders and budgets from feasibility study onto program and design development.

The most obvious indication of this is that projects are getting green lit based on 5- or 10-year old budgets that don't account for inflation and newer construction trends, and they are not being accurately cost estimated through the duration of the design process. Then suddenly it's all a big surprise at CD's that the project is 35% over budget and everyone needs to make deep cuts. This usually ends up putting a project in the position where the program and footprint are already locked and permitted, but where reducing square footage is the only way to get the project completed to a remotely similar caliber of finish. The theater ends up still being a 600-seat room because that's what was promised to the community and the school board, but all of the systems, finishes, treatments, and luxuries (storage...) are hamstrung.


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## StradivariusBone (Nov 6, 2017)

gafftapegreenia said:


> Ok, please forgive my ignorance, but why is every educational theatre project so custom and unique?




MNicolai said:


> Architects do try to reuse, as do some of the larger school districts that build schools more regularly have a pretty good idea what they're looking for. Unfortunately, usually the design is reused verbatim and all of the earlier mistakes are repeated rather than corrected, or the design is pushed into a corner because of footprint, budget, or program constraints and they would've been better right-sizing a new design for that school.



To speak to that point I can say our district did exactly that. In 1995 they elected to build three 700 seat performing arts centers, outfitted with the latest and greatest tech of the time. All three are virtually identical (ours is slightly different from our sister theatres in that our loading dock/workshop space is SR instead of SL like the original design due to the layout of our campus), and all three had those nagging design flaws (no ladders to storage lofts is one annoyance). One of our light bridges is in a weird spot, the booths were elevated to the catwalks and almost put behind glass (the panes are sitting in our storage room, as they were purchased but never installed at the insistence of our inaugural theatre manger). 

The three of the 95 buildings rectified the audio booth issue by building our own in the house, but in the 2000's the county elected to create three more such buildings and reuse the same architectural design. They held meetings with one (maybe more) of the theatre managers and other stake holders where they analyzed the design and updated the things that made sense. All in all they got some pretty solid improvements to the structure. Not to mention things like DMX and Ethernet everywhere as opposed to the 95 buildings where we get three inputs to the rack and no network to speak of as it wasn't then considered as big of an issue.

I know of another popular design in Florida that is a 700-800 seat auditorium that has a really wide seating area, a single light bridge, these ridiculous loft spaces over SR and SL and incorporates motorized electrics and dead hung curtains. They seem to be designed more for music performances as opposed to multi-purpose and can be difficult to stage plays as the sightlines are super wide. Also, many of them have the booth behind glass with monitor speakers, no sliding windows. That alone blows my mind that people who build these things can't figure out something that seems so basic to mixing live audio. It's not like you can't go to any concert venue anywhere in the world and not see a mixing desk in the middle of the house. Maybe architects don't like Rock and/or Roll?

I'm wondering though, Bill, maybe it's a lack of communication between end users and designers? Every now and then reading posts on here about these types of topics I wonder how people like yourself and @MNicolai end up on the "other side" of the world in the consultant/design part of the industry, maybe more of us end users need to find inroads to design? I like that you seem to have somewhat of a compartmentalized approach to designing these buildings (e.g. X number of linesets equals $$, swapping a pit lift for removable covers = $$ in savings, etc.) and I think that appeals to the bean counters and puts the usability of a space into terms that justify the costs. If more of us were vocal about what specifically we need universally would that change things? How do we voice these needs?

I think there will always be a need to build a better mousetrap as it were (and perish the thought that all these buildings end up looking identical), but some things have got to be pretty universally accepted as necessities for performing spaces.


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## JohnD (Nov 6, 2017)

Goodness, is it time for _*Performance Spaces for Dummies*_?

EDIT: with lots of photos and example plans, but not tiny B&W photos, so maybe a CD with them. It might even be cheaper to include a small flash drive instead.


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## Quillons (Nov 6, 2017)

JohnD said:


> _*Performance Spaces for Dummies*_


In a different direction, I'd be interested in a series of lectures posted to Youtube. That way both you and I don't have to track down and buy a book, we can just watch the same video.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Nov 6, 2017)

I'm not sure you can teach someone how to design a theatre, and expect them to understand all of the issues and the effects of even subtle changes. How do you get an architect to accept that curved rear walls are very expensive - first to build and then to solve the acoustical focusing? Build it straight and if you need to jog the rear wall, so be it, but not curved. Until you've done it 20 times, it's a hard fact. And why spend a lot of money on what peoples' backs are to? Any idea how hard it is to convince architects and engineers that bar grate is not only not ideal for catwalks, but just plain awful? I did a drawing showing arrangement for structural loading for rigging - basic beams 10' on center and pair for head blocks to one side. Their first design had some wacky a$$ 7' centers, not centered on building, and head block beams twice as deep. That takes a expert on site to "nip it in the bud" Barney Fife style, not a youtube or book. And Owners think and architect/engineer company administrators think that computers allow this to be down in much less time than it use to be, but three months instead of the year it use to be given is a disaster. There is simply an iterative process that requires many disciplines to review and comment. Structural long spans and tall walls, ducts snaking in that have to not make noise, sight lines, lighting that needs to illuminate performers from a fairly narrow angle (its very hard to get architects to acknowledge the importance of center line sections early.)

The youtube/book/lecture/cook book approach can only work as well as shake and bake chicken or just add water main dishes - which is not very well. (With apologies to college students who survive on kraft mac and cheese.)


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## BillConnerFASTC (Nov 6, 2017)

Another example of why cook book approaches don't assure good work. Duct socks - the fabric tube with holes to let air out - seem like a good idea to some in these spaces - not to much noise (if working at planned capacity) and not too costly. BUT add up the square feet of the surface and its a huge amount of absorption added to the room, just exactly what should not be desirable. Rectangular duct - horrible tuned absorber, sucking base reverberation out of the room - and we like natural base reverberation in the room. What many mechanical engineers don't know about ducts and noise and acoustics is frightening.

Just to say, who knows what never thought of solution to any issue in any building system someone might propose and without a grounded understanding of the basics, what they might try.


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## MNicolai (Nov 6, 2017)

The most valuable input an end user can offer to the process is a documented case justifying what they're asking for and if at all possible a business argument to go with it. Schools aren't going to take money away from classrooms or textbooks to justify a concert shell, but they're more amiable to finding ways to cover improvements if there is a dollars and cents reason for doing it. I can, and usually do argue for a "school-supported roadhouse" model, which helps alleviate the long-term operating and staffing costs by generating a bare minimum revenue from rentals, but this will only ever be a viable option for the schools who have internal advocates lobbying for it. Ultimately that can be the difference between the theater being booked up solid by revenue generating events whenever it's dark from school events versus being an otherwise empty room that gets used as a study hall and gum stuck under all the seats.

Somewhere in there is the usual rebuke of the idea about how our schools shouldn't be competing with private business, but I've found the hardliners on that issue warm up to the idea a little more when they learn the goal is to expose students to a pre-professional experience and make just enough to ensure the venue isn't a money pit -- to keep it from becoming a burden upon the district and the taxpayers.


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## StradivariusBone (Nov 6, 2017)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> How do you get an architect to accept that curved rear walls are very expensive


Having him build a set for Anything Goes might be a start. He won't want to curve anything ever again.


BillConnerFASTC said:


> BUT add up the square feet of the surface and its a huge amount of absorption added to the room, just exactly what should not be desirable. Rectangular duct - horrible tuned absorber, sucking base reverberation out of the room - and we like natural base reverberation in the room.


How do people come to learn about this sort of thing? Trial and error? It never occurred to me to think of an air duct as a harmonic absorber, but it makes sense thinking about it now. And the size and placement of those things are fairly arbitrary in relation to anything outside of maximum efficiency of climate control from my observation.


MNicolai said:


> Somewhere in there is the usual rebuke of the idea about how our schools shouldn't be competing with private business,


Our's is exactly as you described, a sort of baby roadhouse. We serve our community in the sense that any of these dance recitals or community bands or theatre groups would have an alternative choice between a VA chow hall for pennies and the actual roadhouse in town which would blow through 2 years of budget for most of them. One of my favorite parts of this job is how we are able to effectively serve the community and keep gaff tape on the shelves without burdening the taxpayers for our consumables and upgrades. Granted they pay to keep the lights on and the toilets flushing, but as a taxpayer myself I think it's money well-spent.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Nov 6, 2017)

On the duct sock and similar issues - simply always thinking about soft and hard and sound energy. I'm not an acoustical consultant but as a theatre consultant, who pledges allegiance to the playwrights, choreographers, and composers first, being able to hear what was written as it was intended is a very high priority. All materials are acoustic in that they have acoustic properties, react differently and change differently sound energy. That's part of why its hard to teach and why theaters without expertise and positive experience in the planning and design often have many short comings. Notice positive experience. I've worked with many architects with a lot of school auditorium experience - all not good. Just like practicing incorrectly does not make perfect, using the experience of not such good results is no guarantee of better or good results. And when it's coupled with arrogance, what a disaster.


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## venuetech (Nov 6, 2017)

JohnD said:


> Goodness, is it time for _*Performance Spaces for Dummies*_?
> .


How about?

*Performance Spaces for D̶u̶m̶m̶i̶e̶s̶- architects*


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## venuetech (Nov 6, 2017)

It would be a long haul but the thing to do is to somehow work "performance space basics" into the studies of architectural students. The end user seems to often be left out of the process till it is over and done with. So if the owner is only watching the bottom line you end up with a venue built under the gym bleachers, slap the " auditorium " sign on and everyone is happy.
The copy and paste designs that Strad mentioned is nothing new, my 1964 HS venue was just that. Slightly modified to fit the local needs of the time.


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## DVBortle (Nov 7, 2017)

I have had the displeasure of opening 8 venue, either from new construction or from renovation.

Many Architects have an almost deity like persona, the mere fact that they are Architects means they have divine knowledge. The unfortunate part is that the stakeholders or at least the money holders buy into this air. Often following blindly.

Most Architects do not have the faintest idea of what a good space is let alone how to design one. But yet their egos are so fragile that they will fight tooth and nail against bringing in a theatre consultant. I am a firm believer that a skilled theatre consultant is worth their weight in gold. Literally. If only by reducing change orders or trying to fix the problems after the space opens. Things like only fluorescent lights in dressing rooms, 5 pin dmx when all units specked uses 3 pin, to dividing walls blocking sound boxes, to noncompliant ada aisle width, to name a few I have seen.

Architects do not seem to care or maybe understand the differences in how the space will be used, an auditorium is a theatre is a concert hall. And most admin are the same way.

Most Architects have never been involved in theatre. If they had ever deigned lights once, they would stop painting the proscenium gloss white.

Architects, and general contractors have there much needed place, but unless they specialize in the performing arts then maybe they should get a consultant and subcontractor who does. It does not mean they are less skilled or are unworthy of the position. *It means, they actual care about building the best space possible*.

Sorry for preaching to the choir


I was taught the question you ask dictates the answer you receive. Maybe we are not asking the right question.

“make planners understand they need expertise in planning buildings for the performing arts”

In politics, healthcare and big business, everything boils down to one thing Money.

Maybe the question is how we make planners understand it is cheaper to design a good space.


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## RonHebbard (Nov 7, 2017)

DVBortle said:


> I have had the displeasure of opening 8 venue, either from new construction or from renovation.
> 
> Many Architects have an almost deity like persona, the mere fact that they are Architects means they have divine knowledge. The unfortunate part is that the stakeholders or at least the money holders buy into this air. Often following blindly.
> 
> ...


 @DVBortle As a longstanding member of said choir, your sermon is understood and appreciated. 
Toodleoo! 
Ron Hebbard.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Nov 7, 2017)

Well, I can defend many architects that I work with who do care and listen and, in a word, are responsible. And I can't say every administrator that commands "don't speak to the users" is completely unjustified. And my job is often representing the users to the architects and engineers. A lot of users simply don't have the experience to offer a range of solutions. They have seen one and beat that drum, and that is not always the best option. I can't tell you the number of music teachers who in response to every question respond Wenger. But because the design team has done a theatre and "has not heard any complaints" - an all too often claim and defense of past work I've heard over 35 years - doesn't make them wizards of theatre planning either.

The circumstances that prompted me to start this thread are a combination of a lot of poor examples that I'm not sure many people who use them are willing to admit could be better, so of course no complaints and no message to designers they could do better. While there I was constantly apologizing for trashing the auditoriums manager's theatre. To their credit, they recognized the deficiency, but may not have known it was not necessary.

The stage floor that is wood in center and concrete in wings and usually an awful transition between the too. I don't know where that was ever thought to be a good idea but the auditorium manager who did worry about his Wenger shell towers tipping when they crossed it didn't know the wood floor could have extended wall to wall.

This is all made worse by the local dealers who offer "free consulting" but in the end they are sales people, with the goal of getting their products and services included in the project. They might have good intentions and be very knowledgeable about their products, probably much more knowledgeable than I am about the products, but don't have a big picture in mind. After all, who sells intimacy or high Rts? And how much respect does someone who gives it away get?

We are not so careless and nonchalant with the design of factories, hospitals, stadia, etc. - and need to change that for performing arts.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Nov 7, 2017)

My friend and former co-worker Eugene Leitermann wrote this. I think you would find it an excellent start. I still doubt that someone with out expertise could get it all best as can be just from this, but I'm sure would do much better. I worry with a nag like me they would just follow the guidance they liked, and not all of it.

https://www.routledge.com/Theater-P...Entertainment/Leitermann/p/book/9781138888982


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## Ric (Nov 8, 2017)

FYI the other side of the world has these issue as well. I've been to, and worked in, many spaces that have horrendous design issues, that seem very obvious in hindsight.

What we do have is the Victorian Association of Performing Arts Centres, and as tech managers, discuss this situation, and other general theatre techy stuff, on a regular basis.
Some years ago some very clever people got together and developed a recommendation for performing arts spaces Oh You Beautiful Stage.
This is designed to assist architects and consultants on the common planning requirements when look at a performing arts space.

Yes the full copy is a cost, but that is to partly cover the substantial development costs.


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## Peter Scheu ASTC (Nov 8, 2017)

Somewhere along the line, Massachusetts wised up... When the Feds determined that Massachusetts' school were physically failing and threatened to start withholding DOE funds, Massachusetts created the "Massachusetts School Building Authority" (MSBA), with all the legal power that goes along with a Public Authority.

Anyway, in all requests for funding of capital projects from school districts, the MSBA requires that a Theater Consultant be part of the design team, along with all the other prerequisite engineers (elec, structural, civil, HVAC, FP, etc.). We're now on our 6th project with the same architect and can say that after the first one we did together (they had many "come to Jesus" moments)., we've turned out some great spaces together.

This all may be unique to Massachusetts, but it's resulting in some very good designs (our participation notwithstanding). In NY, on some of my other projects, it has taken one or two projects with the same architect for them to see the light, but they all eventually come around. We have relationships with 5 firms in Upstate NY, and each project gets better than the last.

But, yes, this is a tough nut to crack, and will take time... and education at the most fundamental levels. One thing I really think needs to happen is that architecture programs at the college level need to incorporate AT LEAST a guest lecturer to point out the basics, if not create a separate module on auditorium and theater design. I did one "charette" at Syracuse University years ago and the students were "shocked" as to how much they had not thought about when putting together a class theater design project.


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## teqniqal (Nov 8, 2017)

Bill Connor wrote: "But because the design team has done a theatre and "has not heard any complaints" - an all too often claim and defense of past work I've heard over 35 years - doesn't make them wizards of theatre planning either."

My experience is that the architect asks the Superintendent or Principal what they want, rather than asking the Fine Arts Department. Two entirely different answers . . .

What comes next is the tour of the nearby venue, typically another High School, that is also awful beyond words, where the one Superintendent or Principal asks the other Superintendent or Principal about how they like their theatre. They are always going to save face and tell anyone that will listen that it is the greatest thing this side of Carnegie Hall. If they would only ask the teachers they would get an ear full . . .

Our collective challenge is to get the owners and design teams to realize they don't know squat about theatres, and any theatre they have done in the past is probably rife with concept errors, execution errors, and operational problems. 'Cookie cutter' designs are troublesome to address as they have been 'validated' by their mere existence. Explaining to someone that just because they have a theatre doesn't make it a good theatre is hard for them to hear and acknowledge. Tact helps, but it is still bad news, and they don't want to hear it.

'Educational facility pairity' is another problem. They built a theatre in 2002 that was based on a bad 1990 design, then they want a new one designed in 2018 for completion in 2020, but it "can't be any better than the old one because it wouldn't be fair to the other school". My tax dollars going to waste . . .

Bill Connor mentioned the aledged funding pairity between athletics and fine arts in Texas. Living and working here it is so funny to see the local interpretations of that. One school built a huge new football stadium, and under the bleachers they constructed a dried-in practice space for the cheer leaders and flag team to rehearse in. The signage on the side of the stadium facing the road reads (names have been changed): "John Q Smith Athletic and Fine Arts Complex". Other battles I've fought include the cost of a sprung stage floor (1000-1500 sq. ft.) for a black-box theatre vs. the cost of all the hundreds of acres of groomed athletic fields, practice gyms, and weight rooms . . . 

Educating owners and architects is a tedious part of our work, but none-the-less necessary. I sometimes feel like I expend all of my design efforts (budget) just stopping them from making mistakes. It would be amazing to actually get to design the 'hey, wouldn't it be cool if we did this?' stuff. While in college I signed-up for classes in Lighting Design and Architectural Acoustics in the Architecture Department -- what I took away from the classes was this:

The class was an optional graduate level elective, so most students were never exposed to the concepts
The class was only six weeks and met once a week, so not much time to actually learn anything
None of the class information discussed hiring experts, it all implied you could 'do it yourself'
None of it mentioned the applicability to performance / presentation spaces
Other Architecture Schools may be different, but the idea that an Architecture Student should be forcefully exposed to these ideas (and more) by making them mandatory is a great idea.

As to the idea of writing books and making videos, I'm not too much of a fan of that. There are many books on the subject out there (mostly woefully out-dated, particularly with regard to the technology (sound, lights, rigging), and the labor cost of creating watchable accurate informative unbiased videos is more than any of us can bear. Get to know your independent consultants, push the idea of having them involved in your projects - the facility will be better for it.

Peter Scheu - Yeah for Massachusetts! - We need to figure-out how to make that happen in all states!


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## J.W. LAYNE (Nov 8, 2017)

Peter Scheu ASTC said:


> Somewhere along the line, Massachusetts wised up... When the Feds determined that Massachusetts' school were physically failing and threatened to start withholding DOE funds, Massachusetts created the "Massachusetts School Building Authority" (MSBA), with all the legal power that goes along with a Public Authority.
> 
> Anyway, in all requests for funding of capital projects from school districts, the MSBA requires that a Theater Consultant be part of the design team, along with all the other prerequisite engineers (elec, structural, civil, HVAC, FP, etc.). We're now on our 6th project with the same architect and can say that after the first one we did together (they had many "come to Jesus" moments)., we've turned out some great spaces together.
> 
> ...


This worries me to see a post about the the the state of Theatre Architecture in that my college has recently approved the building of a new Arts Complex i was hopping that things had changed in the last 20 years. I haven't' worked on anything recently but 20 years ago i was involved with two University projects where my father who ran the Theatre program at Morehead State University was called in to give technical advise on a project in KY and another one in Virginia both had hired architectural firms that had in house "Theatre Specialist" that would't listen to the Tech Directors or the Design teaches or my Father. The FIRMs basically said we know what you need better than you do "this is our speciality it is what we do". needless to say they ended up with very fancy lecture halls that looked very pretty but not very functional. How do i make sure this doesn't happen here?


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## BillConnerFASTC (Nov 8, 2017)

I think the expression that comes to mind is you can lead a horse to water....

Tip number 1.

Here's one possibility that I believe has always resulted in much better design than would have happened without - a tour. A very long day or hopefully a two day affair passenger van affair packed with theatre tours - 5 or 6 a day - which is a lot. It needs to include administrator, users (teachers/professors in many cases), I love having someone from the school board, they ofetn include a physical plant/maintenance person, the architects, and hopefully a theatre consultant and an acoustical consultant. A range of facilities, not all the architects' and or consultants' (I love the surprises - ones I've never seen or we didn't expect - like the original one in a high school where we went to see the new one - they loved the classic horse shoe balcony).

You learn a lot. My goal is to point out features and functions, sit in seats and compare widths, aisle and aisle access ways. Trips to grids and catwalks (tell the females not to wear skirts for the ladders and spiral stairs). Examine stage floors. Listen to the users. Erich is right - the superintendents and principals are not candid and probably not really knowledgeable - try to hunt down users. We even conferenced with a group of high school students at one recently.

Take lost of photos.

And have a nice dinner together, and a summary closing round table.

The general awareness building and common language and experience is invaluable. So is the trust that is built. Don't be surprised if the program for the building changes. One changed from 600 expandable to 850 with a change to just 850 and 2 balconies. (Expandable sucks!) Another changed from a 900 seat multipurpose theater with full stage to a 900 concert hall and a 300 seat theatre - two spaces much both better suited to the school's activities for approximately same budget.

So do the bus and truck thing - get the right people committed - and go at it with gusto.


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## Amy Frank (Dec 14, 2017)

I am in the exact situation you've described - a cookie-cutter performing arts center that looks pretty, but has some major design flaws. I read a GREAT book written by Elizabeth Rand, entitled High School Theatre Operations for Architects, Administrators and Academics. I've given a copy to administration in my district, since it's likely they will build an "equitable" second high school in the near future. 
I am also working with our state presenters network to form a sub-group of theater managers to act as "advisors" to some of the high schools that are currently planning to build PACs. 

Does anyone know of any national or state organization or association that is for High School PAC Managers (similar to an Athletic Director's Association?) I think I'm going to have to start one - we actually already have a regional one started. There are more and more of us in similar situations and some networking and collaboration would be helpful!


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## MNicolai (Dec 14, 2017)

Amy Frank said:


> Does anyone know of any national or state organization or association that is for High School PAC Managers (similar to an Athletic Director's Association?) I think I'm going to have to start one - we actually already have a regional one started. There are more and more of us in similar situations and some networking and collaboration would be helpful!



Call Michael Duncan @ the Oconomowoc Arts Center. You may already know him from the state presenter's network but he's been pretty actively involved over the last decade with the high school PAC scene. Also has a good success story under his belt of opening a high school PAC and using the school-supported roadhouse model for generating revenue, making all of the different stakeholders in the the district happy, building up an audience and sponsor base in the community, and over 5 years getting the venue to operate and support itself entirely in the black with 3 or 4 full time staff.


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## Amy Frank (Dec 14, 2017)

Michael and I are good friends -- we are working together on this sub-group of WPN to help high school's building PACs. Small world, eh?


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## JChenault (Dec 14, 2017)

Bill

Ive been thinking about this a bit - and don't have a good answer - But I have some thoughts from another industry.

Hospitals. Why are hospitals ( surely at least if not more complex than theatres) not as unsuited to what they need to do than are many theatres. I had a discussion about this with my wife who is a chief of service in a large hospital that has undergone a number of renovations, adding new rooms. building a new building, etc.

Her belief is that the reasons hospitals don't get as screwed up as theatres are that there are a small number of specialists architects who do hospitals and it is expected that if you are doing a hospital your architect either needs to partner with one of the hospital experts or be one of the firms that specialize in hospitals. One major reason for this is regulations. The regulations for a hospital are complex and difficult. You want to have someone who understands the hallway width and door requirements for an outpatient vs an inpatient facility, etc. 

Perhaps the reason that we have so many bad theatres is multi fold.
1 - the local aarchitect thinks he knows how to do it.
2 - there are not enough regulations about what makes an acceptable theatre space
3 - There are not standards for consultants ( I have worked with some awful folks who called themselves consultants)

Just throwing it out the for discussion


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## BillConnerFASTC (Dec 14, 2017)

Amy Frank said:


> I am in the exact situation you've described - a cookie-cutter performing arts center that looks pretty, but has some major design flaws.



I toured Amy's venue and she's right.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Dec 14, 2017)

JChenault said:


> - the local aarchitect thinks he knows how to do it.



I only meet the ones who don't.


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## Amiers (Dec 14, 2017)

You should corner the Midwest market. You know you could do it.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Dec 15, 2017)

JChenault said:


> Why are hospitals ( surely at least if not more complex than theatres) not as unsuited to what they need to do than are many theatres.



Because medicine is considered serious and performing arts is not. Further the management and employees of a hospital are clear, articulate, specific, and adamant about their needs. The same people representing the performing arts in a high school are often not even trained or knowledgeable of many of the aspects of theatre planning and design, don't know what they want, and are easily persuaded or intimidated to settle for less. I wish drama teachers earned and received the same respect a surgeon does.


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## Les (Dec 16, 2017)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> I wish drama teachers earned and received the same respect a surgeon does.



I wish a hard-working person in any noble profession did.


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## RickR (Dec 23, 2017)

I place drama teachers in a category that includes doctors, clergy and architects. They are all supposed to know everything there is to know about their very broad field. Most of them have the added goal of being both friend and authority to their 'clients' without ever lashing out at stupidity, willful ignorance or meanness.


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## RonHebbard (Dec 23, 2017)

RickR said:


> I place drama teachers in a category that includes doctors, clergy and architects. _They are all supposed to know everything there is to know about their very broad field._ Most of them have the added goal of being both friend and authority to their 'clients' without ever lashing out at stupidity, willful ignorance or meanness.


 * @RickR* Well stated, understood, and masterfully phrased Sir with the crux of your post being: "*They are all supposed to know everything there is to know about their very broad field.*" 
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.


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## EdSavoie (Dec 24, 2017)

Our highschool theatre is a (slightly) newer version of one built at our (slightly) older sister school. Said older school has since become a Walmart, but the theatre used at that school was an evolution of the little one built in the 40s at another school in our board.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Dec 24, 2017)

"Parity" always confounds me, especially when building a new second HS in a district and existing one is many years old. Forced to match the shortcomings it seems. Once I strongly recommended an in house mix location. Was not allowed because existing auditorium didn't have one. Well, true, one was not built in but at some point the faculty moved the sound control to middle of house, albeit a little make shift. Admin would still not allow a proper in house mix or even conduit to make the inevitable easier and safer.


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## RonHebbard (Dec 24, 2017)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> "Parity" always confounds me, especially when building a new second HS in a district and existing one is many years old. Forced to match the shortcomings it seems. Once I strongly recommended an in house mix location. Was not allowed because existing auditorium didn't have one. Well, true, one was not built in but at some point the faculty moved the sound control to middle of house, albeit a little make shift. Admin would still not allow a proper in house mix or even conduit to make the inevitable easier and safer.


 @BillConnerFASTC Posting in support. By their rationale, cars would still have cranks, if not reins, whips and horses plus phones would still be party lines mounted on walls at average head height. 
SEASON'S BEST!!!
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.


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## Jay Ashworth (Dec 31, 2017)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> There are more auditoriums and stages designed and built for high schools in this country than any other market segment. Maybe more high school than all other segments of the performing arts market combined. And so many suffer from poor planning. We need to figure out how to change this.



Find the contact information for every construction and design contractor trade paper in the US, and query them for an article. 

The title is that piece, BTW, is "Get It Right The First Time: Building a Usable Theatre is Hard and Expensive".

[ If you need an editor, let me know ]


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## BillConnerFASTC (Dec 31, 2017)

Jay Ashworth said:


> Find the contact information for every construction and design contractor trade paper in the US, and query them for an article.
> 
> The title is that piece, BTW, is "Get It Right The First Time: Building a Usable Theatre is Hard and Expensive".
> 
> [ If you need an editor, let me know ]



I don't think disseminating "good design" to planners and builders will by itself work. Too often I here "we did that (insert any stupid design or poor planning choice) on the last one and no one complained". So those planners and builders don't accept they need to improve. I think I mentioned I just got that same line form a mechanical engineer, went to one of the "many auditoriums" done his way and with "no complaints" and his system produces a loud roaring background noise. The auditorium manager honestly didn't know it didn't have to be that way. 

The users need to push their way into the planning process, and become clearer, more articulate, and more demanding. And when they have a facility with flaws, artfully complain and provide clear and constructive criticism. That's sort of kick the darn door in without getting fired. Which is where a consultant come in, one who is paid and does not have to worry how much they are liked or if they will be invited back, thus not a local vendor who wants to be invited back again and again.


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## SteveB (Dec 31, 2017)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> I don't think disseminating "good design" to planners and builders will by itself work. Too often I here "we did that (insert any stupid design or poor planning choice) on the last one and no one complained". So those planners and builders don't accept they need to improve. I think I mentioned I just got that same line form a mechanical engineer, went to one of the "many auditoriums" done his way and with "no complaints" and his system produces a loud roaring background noise. The auditorium manager honestly didn't know it didn't have to be that way.
> 
> The users need to push their way into the planning process, and become clearer, more articulate, and more demanding. And when they have a facility with flaws, artfully complain and provide clear and constructive criticism. That's sort of kick the darn door in without getting fired. Which is where a consultant come in, one who is paid and does not have to worry how much they are liked or if they will be invited back, thus not a local vendor who wants to be invited back again and again.



A group of our Dept. of Theater tech folks went thru our soon-to-open space, about a year ago, took photos, made notes etc... of the numerous installation errors and design flaws, wrote it all up, sent it up thru channels, and were told by the head of our facilities dept. that they were not allowed in the building and to stay out. No effort the address the issue we are going to deal with, just stay out and shut up. 

Really frustrating experience.


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## RonHebbard (Dec 31, 2017)

SteveB said:


> A group of our Dept. of Theater tech folks went thru our soon-to-open space, about a year ago, took photos, made notes etc... of the numerous installation errors and design flaws, wrote it all up, sent it up thru channels, and were told by the head of our facilities dept. that they were not allowed in the building and to stay out. No effort the address the issue we are going to deal with, just stay out and shut up.
> 
> Really frustrating experience.


 @SteveB Why do you suppose it's like that? Unfortunately this is not an isolated experience. Why is it so difficult to turn things around once "they" get started down the wrong path? 
SEASON'S BEST!!!
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Jan 1, 2018)

Once contracts for construction are awarded, it becomes extremely costly to make changes. Sort of like building a car from spare parts - about 5 times the cost on a new car lot. 

You have to be involved before serious design has begun or it's too late. It frustrating when I get involved late. I can fix systems but often not basic planning. 

So SteveB I feel for you but don't have much help. Over time you can correct some flaws. The best thing you can do is help others avoid this. You're practically in a better position to help than I am.


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## SteveB (Jan 1, 2018)

For our new facility, there were a number of the end users involved in the design process early on, all technical folks, all able to read plans. I think that was part of the issue, the consultants were dealing well with folks that could actually read and understand. Thus we asked for many changes and i think all those changes started to cost the consultants and architects in time they had not planned for. Thus our top bosses, the CUNY planning office pulled the plug on our participation at the 75% planning point and we we no longer involved and still are not. It’s been an 8 year process, the building might open this month and I believe those delays make the supervisors look pretty stupid to THEIR bosses, thus the driving force right now is “dont fix anything, just get the building open”.


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## RonHebbard (Jan 1, 2018)

SteveB said:


> For our new facility, there were a number of the end users involved in the design process early on, all technical folks, all able to read plans. I think that was part of the issue, the consultants were dealing well with folks that could actually read and understand. Thus we asked for many changes and i think all those changes started to cost the consultants and architects in time they had not planned for. Thus our top bosses, the CUNY planning office pulled the plug on our participation at the 75% planning point and we we no longer involved and still are not. It’s been an 8 year process, the building might open this month and I believe those delays make the supervisors look pretty stupid to THEIR bosses, thus the driving force right now is “don't fix anything, just get the building open”.


 @SteveB @BillConnerFASTC We had a new theatre built from the ground up in our area a few years ago. The elevation of the 2nd space was several feet higher than the deck of the main space. The three loading docks were all at the height of the main stage. There was a long ramp between the deck level of the main space and the elevated deck level of the 2nd space. Of course the architects made sure they put two level resting points for folks in wheelchairs. None of the 'iron ring' crowd thought to check if the scissor lift would be able to negotiate the ramps between the two spaces without bottoming out as it transitioned from the ramps to the flat resting areas. Fortunately a couple of us were able to politely hammer this into their heads in time for the two level sections to become three. Sometimes you just HAVE to keep hammering away.
SEASON'S BEST!!!
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.


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## Jay Ashworth (Jan 2, 2018)

SteveB said:


> A group of our Dept. of Theater tech folks went thru our soon-to-open space, about a year ago, took photos, made notes etc... of the numerous installation errors and design flaws, wrote it all up, sent it up thru channels, and were told by the head of our facilities dept. that they were not allowed in the building and to stay out. No effort the address the issue we are going to deal with, just stay out and shut up.
> 
> Really frustrating experience.



Alas, there really is only *one* solution to that sort of situation.

Please forgive me my language, everyone.

"[email protected]$k you; we quit."


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## BillConnerFASTC (Jan 2, 2018)

That's fine if you have no responsibilities, family, and so on. The realities of life make that not possible for most of us.


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## SteveB (Jan 3, 2018)

Jay Ashworth said:


> Alas, there really is only *one* solution to that sort of situation.
> 
> Please forgive me my language, everyone.
> 
> "fark you; we quit."



Too late to quit, I'm only a few short years till retirement. I'll just tell them "Oh Well, sorry I can'that' too bad


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## SteveB (Jan 3, 2018)

So more fun from the Brooklyn Follies

We got confirmation today that for some reason, the architect neglected a key design feature in 2 of the 3 lighting/audio/control booths. namely countertops (2) for the lighting and audio consoles. They designed a nice counter/tabletop unit for the main theater space, but not these 2 other booths. Lot's of associated connection points below where these countertops will reside, track lighting above, but no actual countertops. Easy enough to remedy except the architect and consultant, who remain nameless only due to my own high standards of professionalism, have done their walk thru and punch list and somehow missed this. Next week I am supposed to unpack and check the operation of the 2 remaining Ion consoles, with Barbizon, but have no place to actually place these consoles.

Then the overly large lobby, where they were supposed to install near ceiling level on the overlooking balcony, some horizontal lighting positions so as to potentially light an event in the lobby. It was talked about and they installed 6 - 208v 30A twist receptacles, as well as pass-thru DMX ports for the shoe-box dimmers. The DMX send location is on a wall on the lobby first level with no electrical outlet anywhere near the DMX port, not sure how I'm supposed to power up the console, sending data to non-existent shoe-box dimmers, to lighting equipment they didn't buy, on positions they didn't install. Power and DMX cabling is good to go though.

First show opens in 6 weeks, no certificate of occupancy. 

You have to be fuc*ing kidding, frustration level just peaked, yet again.


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## MNicolai (Jan 3, 2018)

SteveB said:


> First show opens in 6 weeks, no certificate of occupancy.
> 
> You have to be fuc*ing kidding, frustration level just peaked, yet again.



You wouldn't believe how often CO's or TCO's are awarded 2 or 3 days before a sold out grand opening event.


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## RonHebbard (Jan 3, 2018)

SteveB said:


> So more fun from the Brooklyn Follies
> 
> We got confirmation today that for some reason, the architect neglected a key design feature in 2 of the 3 lighting/audio/control booths. namely countertops (2) for the lighting and audio consoles. They designed a nice counter/tabletop unit for the main theater space, but not these 2 other booths. Lot's of associated connection points below where these countertops will reside, track lighting above, but no actual countertops. Easy enough to remedy except the architect and consultant, who remain nameless only due to my own high standards of professionalism, have done their walk thru and punch list and somehow missed this. Next week I am supposed to unpack and check the operation of the 2 remaining Ion consoles, with Barbizon, but have no place to actually place these consoles.
> 
> ...


 @SteveB Just a thought for you. When adding / retrofitting counter tops in booths, anchor them to the wall for stability but space them out from the wall 2" to 3" across their full width for a full width cable pass through, either to loop excess cable over the edge and out of sight or to pass connectors down to mate with wall mounted receptacles. A 5/8" x 5/8" full width rigidly attached strip is useful as a backstop to catch the rear feet of consoles and keep them from jamming their connectors against the wall or window. 
SEASON'S BEST!!!
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Jan 3, 2018)

SteveB said:


> So more fun from the Brooklyn Follies
> 
> We got confirmation today that for some reason, the architect neglected a key design feature in 2 of the 3 lighting/audio/control booths. namely countertops (2) for the lighting and audio consoles. They designed a nice counter/tabletop unit for the main theater space, but not these 2 other booths. Lot's of associated connection points below where these countertops will reside, track lighting above, but no actual countertops. Easy enough to remedy except the architect and consultant, who remain nameless only due to my own high standards of professionalism, have done their walk thru and punch list and somehow missed this. Next week I am supposed to unpack and check the operation of the 2 remaining Ion consoles, with Barbizon, but have no place to actually place these consoles.
> 
> ...



Is anything good in your new building?

It does seem like the things noted are not fatal and unable to be solved. Its very rare a new building is "perfect" and that all the equipment and furniture is there on day one.


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## SteveB (Jan 3, 2018)

RonHebbard said:


> @SteveB Just a thought for you. When adding / retrofitting counter tops in booths, anchor them to the wall for stability but space them out from the wall 2" to 3" across their full width for a full width cable pass through, either to loop excess cable over the edge and out of sight or to pass connectors down to mate with wall mounted receptacles. A 5/8" x 5/8" full width rigidly attached strip is useful as a backstop to catch the rear feet of consoles and keep them from jamming their connectors against the wall or window.
> SEASON'S BEST!!!
> Toodleoo!
> Ron Hebbard.



Yeah, that's a nice idea, better than the cable holes.


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## RonHebbard (Jan 3, 2018)

SteveB said:


> Yeah, that's a nice idea, better than the cable holes.


 @SteveB I find two problems with cable holes: 
1; They're often in the wrong place / not enough of the them.
2; They occupy / remove counter surface and small parts disappear from view while servicing consoles.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.


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## SteveB (Jan 3, 2018)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> Is anything good in your new building?
> 
> It does seem like the things noted are not fatal and unable to be solved. Its very rare a new building is "perfect" and that all the equipment and furniture is there on day one.



Well some stuff is unfixable.

But, Yes. We have a decent theater that we can work with, some oddities (they took away 15 ft of SL wing space for a useless hallway), maybe enough dimmers, the lighting systems are top of the line ETC, the installer is Barbizon and they are terrific, a nice FOH catwalk design, the audio and AV systems installers are seemingly doing a really really thorough job and getting stuff fixed, there's AV and Ethernet every where so the audio guys are OK.

The music rehearsal space is very nice and will be useful as it gets the orchestra rehearsals off the roadhouse stage, which in turn opens up that space for rentals, so that's good.

The theater rehearsal space is too small to do events (50-60 seats) and got 144 dimmers, so that's a bummer, but so what. We have another black box that looks like it'll get renovated on another project.

Pretty building otherwise and I love new stuff, just extraordinarily frustrating experience with poor or no communication attempting to get obvious issues fixed.

So sorry for the bitc*ing, hard as it's our first "new" building. Other new buildings on our campus during my tenure have turned into such disasters, we were really, really trying to pay attention and stay proactive on this one , just nobody listening.

And if anyone wants to know the architect and consultant on this project, PM me as I can certainly give them a thumbs down.


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## JohnD (Jan 3, 2018)

I wonder if instead of the slot all along the back edge of the counter, how about something like the touring case console device, the doghouse. Build it with no bottom and with a flip up lid and mouse holes on the front. Where the console goes it could be a very wide mouse hole so there is a good place for any connectors that stick out.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Jan 4, 2018)

Just more on the original topic. Started planning and design in earnest in June for a high school auditorium and stage. One of the first things I tried to get discussed and coordinated was the structural framing, catwalks, and railings. All kinds of loading info and details and examples. Not much traction. A LOT of discussion of 1 1/2" schedule 40 pipe. So come December and its a last check set of everyone's drawings and things are still in the wrong place, closely spaced 1 1/4" rails, and fundamental details of the stage edge that just don't work (for orchestra pit, pit filler, lip speakers, and stage flooring). I could have the walls moved and added a 100 seats with less resistance than getting a pipe rail drawn and labeled as 1 1/4" changed to 1 1/2". Steve's "Brooklyn Follies" just brings it to mind.

Weren't always so but - in my opinion - the change from hand drawing to computers is a major factor. CAD allows anyone to create drawings, but does nothing to promote making good design and planning choices in a timely fashion. If anything, by allowing you to make major changes at the end of design and by being the agent by which a typical 25-50 drawing building is now 500-1000 sheets - like some journeyman is actually going to be able to look at 500-1000 sheets and identify the items needing coordination - I can only be thrilled that my career is coming to an end before long.

Stepping off the soap box before I fall off. No railings on this thing.


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## darinlwebb (Jan 10, 2018)

I'm enjoying this discussion. People keep talking about writing books and articles, but I'd settle for a recorded video chat between a few experienced folks talking about problems in new spaces, and advice for people still in the planning phase.

Ours has the super-deep orchestra pit problem. Fortunately it's motorized, and one of two permanent things our scene shop has built for the space are platforms that allow us to use the pit in a half-lowered position.

The other build was sloped 'lids' for some permanent speakers that sit on stage. TIP: Any flat surface less than 8ft off the ground will become a shelf, most likely for water bottles. Don't let electronics become shelves.


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## SteveB (Jan 17, 2018)

Well when you file for your permits, especially in the City of New York, make sure you fully understand the difference between "cellar" and "basement". 

Apparently the NYC Building Dept. took exception to how the project architect labeled our partly finished basement as a "basement" and not a "cellar". 

Thus CofO and Temp CofO not getting issued till all filed paperwork gets corrected. 

We are now scrambling for a few spaces off campus to do spring the Theater Dept. event, that was scheduled to load in in 2 week. 

Sigh.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Jan 17, 2018)

SteveB said:


> Well when you file for your permits, especially in the City of New York, make sure you fully understand the difference between "cellar" and "basement".
> 
> Apparently the NYC Building Dept. took exception to how the project architect labeled our partly finished basement as a "basement" and not a "cellar".
> 
> ...


I think that is a unique to NYC issue in that the predominate national model building code addresses levels in relation to above and below grade, and how far, and exactly what grade is. In fact, the term cellar appears only once in the International Building Code, probably a leftover, and is simply used in only one requirement that refers to "basements or cellars", and is otherwise undefined.


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## microstar (Jan 17, 2018)

SteveB said:


> Well when you file for your permits, especially in the City of New York, make sure you fully understand the difference between "cellar" and "basement".
> 
> Apparently the NYC Building Dept. took exception to how the project architect labeled our partly finished basement as a "basement" and not a "cellar".
> 
> ...


I've been involved in the opening of several new theatres, and one of the repeated mistakes seems to be setting the opening date for the inaugural show way too close to when the building is "supposed to be" completed. I understand the pride which the owners have in their new space and how they want to show it off with a tremendous opening show, but how often has a construction project been absolutely on schedule? The last instance I was party to, the owner insisted on having rehearsals in the space because it was a couple of weeks before opening night, and there were lots of frustrated construction people trying to finish the punch list. Not to mention the fire marshal had some issues with various items and threatened to delay the opening.
Even the final testing and checks of the lighting and sound systems were compromised because the owners tech staff were so busy working on the production they didn't have time to watch, learn, and ask questions about all of their new toys. Sometimes people just do it to themselves without anyone helping them.


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## MNicolai (Jan 17, 2018)

microstar said:


> I've been involved in the opening of several new theatres, and one of the repeated mistakes seems to be setting the opening date for the inaugural show way too close to when the building is "supposed to be" completed. I understand the pride which the owners have in their new space and how they want to show it off with a tremendous opening show, but how often has a construction project been absolutely on schedule? The last instance I was party to, the owner insisted on having rehearsals in the space because it was a couple of weeks before opening night, and there were lots of frustrated construction people trying to finish the punch list. Not to mention the fire marshal had some issues with various items and threatened to delay the opening.
> Even the final testing and checks of the lighting and sound systems were compromised because the owners tech staff were so busy working on the production they didn't have time to watch, learn, and ask questions about all of their new toys. Sometimes people just do it to themselves without anyone helping them.



Everyone works up to the deadline. If you put 2 months of buffer in before the first show, then you're 1) throwing money away from unused time in the building or 2) everyone works up until the the end of the buffer. Usually the latter.


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## SteveB (Jan 17, 2018)

This project has been 8 years of teardown (1 year) and construction (7).

There was a hopeful 2014 date, we missed that. Last spring they were hoping for “Sept., maybe November”. That was actually pretty firm and the 3 GC’s (yes, 3) have been saying since November that “they were done and wanted out”. Then didn’t finish nor check to see if they were finished. 

Thus the college, being told it was OK, booked for mid February, ignoring that we told them we needed a month to get the building ready, well OK, maybe a week. 

Then the City of NY got involved. 

Im not surprised actually and though maybe spring ‘19 was more likely.


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## Paul Hannah (Jan 17, 2018)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> I've been working on a project and have not understood the source of so many bad theatre planning and design ideas from the architect and engineers. Then started touring some schools with a reputation for "good" auditorium and stages. Oh my. Explains why the mechanical engineer didn't understand my concerns as the comparable schools all have what I would call a dull roar background noise. You couple that with very dead acoustics - Rt's in the 1 second range where as most projects I work on strive for 1.5 to 1.8 - and its tough to make the case for good design. Orchestra pits that seem a mile deep with 4' high conductor platforms. I could list so many more common shortcomings. Its not budget, its not understanding the basics and priorities. (For some idea, see my article here: https://www.controlbooth.com/resour...lanning-and-designing-high-school-theatres.6/)
> 
> There are more auditoriums and stages designed and built for high schools in this country than any other market segment. Maybe more high school than all other segments of the performing arts market combined. And so many suffer from poor planning. We need to figure out how to change this.



Two years ago I walked into a newly built "beautiful" theatre in an independent high school, here in Australia. The school doesn't seem to be short of a quid and the look of it was great. Nice deep and high stage, recycled beams all over the walls. Great set of lights. What it didn't have was all the things an audience either doesn't see or doesn't notice. 

No backstage.
No off stage - not even space for tabs.
No control room.
No dressing rooms - this is for a co-ed school.
No toilets in the building.
No provision for lighting bars at even close to the correct angle.
No lock up spaces for tech gear.


But from the outside it is very beautiful. 
I honestly think the moron who designed this had either never been to a real theatre or if s/he had, they had only sat in the audience and clapped.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Jan 17, 2018)

Paul Hannah said:


> I honestly think the moron who designed this had either never been to a real theatre or if s/he had, they had only sat in the audience and clapped.



Amen to that! I see a lot of plans and buildings where its clear the designers have never been backstage, let alone backstage during a show. "Why do you need all that space to the sides?"


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## RonHebbard (Jan 18, 2018)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> I think that is a unique to NYC issue in that the predominate national model building code addresses levels in relation to above and below grade, and how far, and exactly what grade is. In fact, the term cellar appears only once in the International Building Code, probably a leftover, and is simply used in only one requirement that refers to "basements or cellars", and is otherwise undefined.


 @BillConnerFASTC Your comment "_building code addresses levels in relation to above and below grade, how far, and exactly what grade is_" Caught my attention. A nearby, multi-venue, repertory theatre embarked upon an expansion and upgrading project to expand their main building located in a park adjacent to a lake. The goal was to add two rehearsal spaces and 1 performance space WITHOUT significantly altering the peaceful, serene, idyllic ambience of the park. 
Let me paint the picture:
*From within the building*, you've got two windowless rehearsal spaces plus a third rehearsal space about 15' higher with clerestory windows along one of its longer side walls. Floor level is constant throughout for ease of moving actors, production staff and equipment between rooms. 
*From the exterior*, you've got a park next to a lake with the top of one rehearsal room sitting there above grade amongst the trees to accommodate the row of clerestory windows. 
*Further comments and points to ponder*:
Two rooms are totally below grade with grass, trees, picnickers and and denizens of the park above them. Imagine how surprised a burrowing critter must be to find two rehearsal rooms a few feet below his serene neighborhood. Tree roots are likely caught a little off guard as well.
On the plus side: Two of the three spaces provide phenomenal black outs 24 / 7 / 365.
On the "interesting" points to ponder list:
All conduits fill with water. We'd blow and vacuum them out then immediately pull wiring in as fast as we could in a race to beat the water. A provincial park about 40 miles down the highway where one of our largest cities abuts a lake has the same situation to contend with. In the case of our three rehearsal rooms, we installed TMB's best tactical category cable and hoped for the best.
*Back to @BillConnerFASTC 's comment: "building code addresses levels in relation to above and below grade, how far, and exactly what grade is"* 
During construction, everyone referred to the spaces as: 
The small rehearsal room, the large rehearsal room and the theatre. 
A* rehearsal room* with a high ceiling, overhead lighting positions, a storage room accommodating rows of removable seating for "observers", a lobby, bar, coat-check, public washrooms, and daylight streaming in through a row of clerestory windows looked like a theatre to most of us.
*From the architect's perspective:*
EVERY TIME the architect visited, he kept chastising and correcting anyone and everyone who referred to the largest space as "the theatre" insisting it was merely the large rehearsal hall and definitely NOT a "theatre". Seemingly the terminology had huge impacts from the POV of codes, acceptable variances, and the costs to meet them. Some trades were annoyed by the architect and his insistence on "precise terminology". Our guys fell into overly emphasized, tongue in cheek, precision whenever conversing face to face with the architect and it soon became a polite game of "after you Alphonse"
*Bottom line: * @BillConnerFASTC raises an important point and I applaud him for doing so.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.


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## SteveB (Jan 24, 2018)

I mean seriously, you couldn't find the same screws to install the button upside down ?.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Jan 24, 2018)

RonHebbard said:


> @BillConnerFASTC Your comment "_building code addresses levels in relation to above and below grade, how far, and exactly what grade is_" Caught my attention. A nearby, multi-venue, repertory theatre embarked upon an expansion and upgrading project to expand their main building located in a park adjacent to a lake. The goal was to add two rehearsal spaces and 1 performance space WITHOUT significantly altering the peaceful, serene, idyllic ambience of the park.
> Let me paint the picture:
> *From within the building*, you've got two windowless rehearsal spaces plus a third rehearsal space about 15' higher with clerestory windows along one of its longer side walls. Floor level is constant throughout for ease of moving actors, production staff and equipment between rooms.
> *From the exterior*, you've got a park next to a lake with the top of one rehearsal room sitting there above grade amongst the trees to accommodate the row of clerestory windows.
> ...



Some of the terminology in the codes has improved. Much less of categorizing it by semantics and then not including the proper safety as use to be almost routine; more if its this big then you need this feature because of the potential fuel load. No more trying to defend it as a platform instead of a stage. If you can have a lot of scenery spread around, its a stage. And it you can hang many layers of it high, its needs even more. See attached file. (Maybe someone will put this in resources for posterity.) I'm hoping to see this evolve further and reduce some requirements because of LED lighting. When lighting on stages was open flames and open arcs, the average life of a theatre was around 5 years before it burned down. The electric light bulb changed that dramatically but still that hot incandescent light seems to be the predominant source of ignition. LEDs are not nearly as hot. Of course any relaxation for LEDs only would have to stipulate no pyro, the more recently introduced ignition source.


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## RickR (Jan 27, 2018)

I saw this yesterday. It operates a stage lip light tube of tiny lamps. 



Anyone know the difference between Trivoli and Tivoli?


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## RonHebbard (Jan 27, 2018)

RickR said:


> I saw this yesterday. It operates a stage lip light tube of tiny lamps.
> View attachment 15948
> 
> Anyone know the difference between *Trivoli and Tivoli?*


 *@RickR* Send us your easy ones. "Tri" obviously refers to three phase while "Tivoli" is "I lov it" backwards. C'mon Rick, get with the program. Even us blind old geezers comprehend the obvious. (Snark / Sarcasm, et al) 
*Edit:* I'm sure @TimMc will have an answer for you shortly.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard


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## RickR (Jan 27, 2018)

"I love IRT?"


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## JohnD (Jan 27, 2018)

RonHebbard said:


> *@RickR* Send us your easy ones. "Tri" obviously refers to three phase while "Tivoli" is "I lov it" backwards. C'mon Rick, get with the program. Even us blind old geezers comprehend the obvious. (Snark / Sarcasm, et al)
> *Edit:* I'm sure @TimMc will have an answer for you shortly.
> Toodleoo!
> Ron Hebbard


While we are waiting for TimMc, I am of the opinion they are referring to lights perhaps made here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trivoli_Township,_Peoria_County,_Illinois
Oh and I believe TimMc uses sarc/ or something like that, I am of the opinion both snark and sarcasm in one fell swoop.*

*In keeping to the focus of these forums I should point out that the term* One Fell Swoop is from the Bard, but since it is from that Scottish play least said, soonest mended. *


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## RonHebbard (Jan 27, 2018)

JohnD said:


> While we are waiting for TimMc, I am of the opinion they are referring to lights perhaps made here:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trivoli_Township,_Peoria_County,_Illinois
> Oh and I believe TimMc uses sarc/ or something like that, I am of the opinion both snark and sarcasm in one fell swoop.*
> 
> *In keeping to the focus of these forums I should point out that the term* One Fell Swoop is from the Bard, but since it is from that Scottish play least said, soonest mended. *


 @JohnD You're references to the Bard are reminding me of how the Stratford Shakespearean Festival's company used to casually refer to "She Stoops To Conquer" as: "She Bends For Friends". 'nough said. 
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.


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