# The Rider Rant



## Chris Chapman (Oct 17, 2014)

We've all been there before. A Road Show is coming in. The fun of doing the Advance work on a tour. The fun bonus fun of getting an advance light plot and making it work. And then being able to execute everything so the Tour is happy, and your audience enjoys the show.

I had a little bit of a rough one yesterday. The LD wasn't on the tour, and he was usually the Board Op. The lighting design was based on a larger cast, and featured specials specifically for that cast. The Tour cast was fluctuating in size as well, so not a lot of help on that. "Here's a two minute video of the opening number. Make it look like that." So we struggle to get a compromise on the design with this epic quote from the Designer: "The show is good enough that you can run it under worklights and your audience will love it. Make it look nice."

So the LD signs off basically on me doing whatever I want with his show. He sends me a cue list for general ideas on looks and I'm on my own. OK. That's actually pretty cool, but I'm worried because I'm still running the show blind. We hang a modified version of his plot, and prep the stage with platforming as specified in the rider and focus off of that. I get in a quick pass on looks before they load in.

Tour shows up for load in. "Oh, this setup is terrific" they say. Except "We need to move it all downstage six feet." Half of the light plot goes right into the trash. We do an emergency refocus DURING dinner break. 

All in all it turned out OK, but as being the local guy, I'm pretty sick of Tour Riders that aren't based on reality and PM's coming in and trashing a days work. I totally understand why Tour have riders and the need for it. But can't we get some level of compromise and getting riders written that actually reflect the show on tour? Not the first time this has happened. I had one show that had a VERY specific audio package that we ended up renting a good chunk of, and then they walked in the door and announced they weren't going to use ANY of that gear.

End rant. Big Sigh. Need to repaint my show deck for now for next weeks rental gig. Joy.


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## SteveB (Oct 17, 2014)

We (I) play a bit of hardball when I run into this type of situation - which is frequently. It's either YOUR design, adapted by the company to the house (a requirement of the contract) OR it's MY adaptation and at that point what the company wants is secondary to when I know I can give them in the time allotted. Pretty much EVERY company that is less proficient or professional at the decision process will be passive/aggressive in the process. I've learned to deal with it. 

Our house has a very deep pit area and for a lot events that desire to be close to the audience, playing the pit is important but sometimes a problem if they have lighting or scenic requirements needing the rigging or overhead electrics. Thus a decision needs to be made immediately (or in advance) as to where the show is living onstage. As well, I'm focusing first thing in order to get the deck clear ASAP for load in and audio setup. If the company is not here prior to my starting a focus,_ they are getting the focus_ _we set_ and we make it clear that we probably do not have time to change it. Our PM, GM and Managing Director as well will play hardball with a company so they understand that if they need something changed due to a companies inadequacies and it requires working through a meal break, then it comes out of the companies check.

We also spend a lot of time in prior conversation and e-mail exchanges attempting to establish in advance, where a company is playing onstage and how much time is required, or allocated, to make sure there are fewer surprises when they roll in the door. But there are always surprises and it's the nature of the business.


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## Footer (Oct 17, 2014)

It is rather simple in our space, use the rep plot or go somewhere else. We don't have time to re-hang and refocus for every show. If the 40 specials we have in the air don't work for you, then you have bigger issues. Secondarly, like @SteveB our general rule is we either light the show how we see fit or you spoon feed it to us exactly as you want it and we'll hit go when told. Getting in a gray area never works well. I suggest you avoid that at all costs. We are not apart of your creative team. We can be creative, but my guys are not paid to be your designer to fulfill your exact vision. If you want that, you need to pay them a separate design fee. 

As far as the focus before they get there thing goes, we never do that. Even with the music stuff we wait to focus specials until the show is mostly in. It means bounce focusing everything, but at least you only have to focus once.


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## porkchop (Oct 17, 2014)

I mean if they're the ones paying for the time/rental shouldn't they be able to decide they're going to change it?


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## SteveB (Oct 17, 2014)

porkchop said:


> I mean if they're the ones paying for the time/rental shouldn't they be able to decide they're going to change it?



In my example, I was unspecific in describing a scenario where we (the theater or in-house promoter) is paying the artist.

In a rental, they can do whatever they want if time allows, within limits and according to the contract, including completely stripping the electrics and soft good hang. They are paying for the restore, so it's up to the person paying the bills.

I will not however, design their show for them with the "help" from the LD they chose not to hire, or with the "help of the PM or whomever. I will provide a free design, but I have been known to tell an artistic director (whom opted to cancel his LD the day before the event) that it's my design and I like the look so too bad. I have also set the Ion into lockout while an LD was sitting at the desk programming subs and we were needing to take a dinner break. This was a show where the promoter paid for a 10AM load-in time with the artist and tech staff choosing to arrive at 3PM (we twiddled thumbs for 5 hrs.), then proceed to attempt to load in and setup scenery all the while needing to select, patch, color and focus roughly 150 units, plus program, all before a 6PM dinner call for a 7PM show. At 6:05 my PM pulled the plug on the programming.


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## len (Oct 17, 2014)

"We need to re-hang the plot."

OK. We'll need $XX for the extra labor. Will that be cash or cash?


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## techieman33 (Oct 17, 2014)

len said:


> "We need to re-hang the plot."
> 
> OK. We'll need $XX for the extra labor. Will that be cash or cash?



You don't have a Delorean handy to go back and fix little problems like that?


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## What Rigger? (Oct 17, 2014)

porkchop said:


> I mean if they're the ones paying for the time/rental shouldn't they be able to decide they're going to change it?


 
No. There are time/gear/space/budget/crew considerations. Just because the road guy didn't give all the info to the house guy, doesn't mean you get to show up and make people work over their breaks, etc....

I had a well known R&B act from Motown-Philly show up at my venue once. The stage was 40 wide and 25 deep. The pipes were dead hung at 20 feet off the deck. This was a showroom. They had 2 trailers, 52 foot each. It took *all day* during the load in to get the road manager to undertstand that his entire theater/arena set up was not, under any circumstance, going on our stage. We were telling him, standing in the truck, that he was going to have to make changes that we'd already made him aware of. We told him this during the advance process, multiple times. We produced the emails and his responses. It's not our fault you can't pay attention, or choose to ignore us. It played out like the second 20 minutes of "Behind the Music" where the wheels come off a band. Come to think of it...it was!

I don't know what happened to New Jack Swing, but I'm still around.

I also don't know what my point was here anymore...


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## Chris Chapman (Oct 18, 2014)

We focused off of the Rider plot which had dimensions for the exact layout of platforming based off of plaster line. Our pit is not a danceable surface. With our main rag closed, and the set moved 6' further downstage, there was also a considerable issue with cable runs. I had informed the PM 2 days before they arrived that we were setting up based on rider and lighting plot, and he OK'd it. That is why I was peeved when he blew in and told me that everything had to move.

My point in the OP is that local houses CONTINUE to get riders that just aren't close to reality. I want to make every show in my venue go smooth. Talent should have zero worries when they walk into my space, and they can focus on their show. the best way I can help them do that is with a correct Advance on the show. It's been my bad luck to get a bunch of B & C level tours that do not have their act together.


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## SteveB (Oct 18, 2014)

Its completely hit and miss as to the quality and skill of the technical folks traveling with a show. With "Vegas" and variety acts (folks that were one-hit wonders 30 years ago and are still touring) a lot of artists want to maximize the amount of money from the artists fees going into their pockets and will not travel with anybody except a "stage manager" who at best is going to mix audio and while setting audio levels, plus doing a full run thru with the artist, will set lighting levels on a plot they didn't design or specify, etc... and so forth.

One thing we struggle with is trying to get the technical rep. from an artist to visualize how the space is laid out and what it looks like. We have photo's on a website as well as ground plans and light plots, section, etc... plus the technical package, but we still struggle with getting them to read all the information that's available. We had Jason Mraz a month ago and their crew of 8 or so did zip to look at the advance information we sent them and essentially made it up when they walked in the door. It was a poor adaptation of what they specified in their rider and I suspected they crew didn't give a s _ _ t. The show was boring as a result. Had I been the promoter I would have bitched, but it was a Live Nation rental and I don't think their tech/advance guy knew what he wasn't getting. 

And so it goes.


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## derekleffew (Oct 18, 2014)

Chris Chapman said:


> ... My point in the OP is that local houses CONTINUE to get riders that just aren't close to reality. ...


The most recent, up to date rider from a current national act:


Ten (10) trims per lamp!!! Excessive. Two should be more than enough.


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## Pie4Weebl (Oct 20, 2014)

I think the topic of riders is best covered by They Might Giants' John Flansburgh:

> *Ira Glass*
> The way I always heard the story was that Van Halen had something in the contract that they used when they toured that said that everywhere that they went, in every city, in every dressing room on their tour, there had to be a bowl of M&Ms, and that the brown M&Ms had to be removed. It's kind of a well-known story, I think. And the way that I understood it is that it showed what divas rock stars could be, that any whim that they had would have to be met, no matter how petty. You hate brown M&Ms? Poof! They will cease to exist in your world.
> 
> And then a couple of years ago, we had this band, They Might Be Giants, on our radio show. And by the way, you're listening to _This American Life_ from WBEZ Chicago, distributed by Public Radio International. Anyway, we had this band on the show. And I got to know them a little bit. And I had never talked to a touring rock musician about that story. And I remember John Flansburgh saying to me, no, no, no, no, no. I had the meaning of the story totally wrong.
> ...


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## len (Oct 21, 2014)

SteveB said:


> Its completely hit and miss as to the quality and skill of the technical folks traveling with a show. With "Vegas" and variety acts (folks that were one-hit wonders 30 years ago and are still touring) a lot of artists want to maximize the amount of money from the artists fees going into their pockets and will not travel with anybody except a "stage manager" who at best is going to mix audio and while setting audio levels, plus doing a full run thru with the artist, will set lighting levels on a plot they didn't design or specify, etc... and so forth.
> 
> One thing we struggle with is trying to get the technical rep. from an artist to visualize how the space is laid out and what it looks like. We have photo's on a website as well as ground plans and light plots, section, etc... plus the technical package, but we still struggle with getting them to read all the information that's available. We had Jason Mraz a month ago and their crew of 8 or so did zip to look at the advance information we sent them and essentially made it up when they walked in the door. It was a poor adaptation of what they specified in their rider and I suspected they crew didn't give a s _ _ t. The show was boring as a result. Had I been the promoter I would have bitched, but it was a Live Nation rental and I don't think their tech/advance guy knew what he wasn't getting.
> 
> And so it goes.



I so wish that the type of venues (hotels, banquet halls) had an accurate floor plan available. But most, even if they have a floor plan, draw it up to meet the client needs, not the vendors. The ceiling is 15' high, except around the perimeter, where there's a soffit, which is only 13'. Or if the ceiling is 12' "or so" but it's really 10' 11". Yeah, that 13" doesn't matter. Or how all the wall outlets in the 10,000 s.f. ballroom are on the same circuit.


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## tjrobb (Oct 21, 2014)

As a maintenance tech for a convention hall I try to know all the quirks of our building. And if I don't know it, I try to find it. Makes life easier for all.


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## KeepOnTruckin (Oct 22, 2014)

len said:


> I so wish that the type of venues (hotels, banquet halls) had an accurate floor plan available. But most, even if they have a floor plan, draw it up to meet the client needs, not the vendors. The ceiling is 15' high, except around the perimeter, where there's a soffit, which is only 13'. Or if the ceiling is 12' "or so" but it's really 10' 11". Yeah, that 13" doesn't matter. Or how all the wall outlets in the 10,000 s.f. ballroom are on the same circuit.



And while all the wall outlets are on the same circuit in the biggest ballroom, we have a 400a disconnect over in the laundry room which is 500 feet across the lobby, oh and that will be a $500 fee if you want to use it.


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## techieman33 (Oct 22, 2014)

tjrobb said:


> As a maintenance tech for a convention hall I try to know all the quirks of our building. And if I don't know it, I try to find it. Makes life easier for all.



It's rare to actually get to talk to someone that actually knows those details in a ballroom though. Instead we get the event coordinator, or sometimes a "building engineer" that just tells us there is "plenty" of power.


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## MikeJ (Oct 24, 2014)

The tour does not send out riders, management does, and management is stupid. Always talk directly with someone who will actually be there.

And the M&M thing, yeah the point is to make sure you read the details, but you should tell them where to stick their M&M's. There are lots of things on a rider that you can simply say no to, depending on your situation. You have to show them you have a backbone, or you will get walked on.


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## Footer (Oct 24, 2014)

Also keep in mind a rider is only valid if attached to a contract. We routinely red ink riders to fit into house gear and labor. My favorite thing is when advancing you get sent the "new" rider... Which can usually be totally ignored. Now accurate stage plots is a totally different thing... 

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


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## What Rigger? (Oct 24, 2014)

Pie4Weebl said:


> I think the topic of riders is best covered by They Might Giants' John Flansburgh:


 
Dave actually tells a version of this on his video podcast "The Roth Show" in season 1 I believe. But you should watch every episode. The VanHalen history alone is worth it.


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## What Rigger? (Oct 24, 2014)

Because you all want another reason to love me, here's Iggy's 2012 rider that I just found out about for the first time moments ago. Yes, I'd previously seen the 2006 edition. I don't sleep, except at red lights and my kids recitals. It's not my fault.

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/file/iggy-and-stooges-0


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## Chris Chapman (Oct 27, 2014)

But again there is the point. The Iggy Rider and the VanHalen one have a definitive point to them that actually is centered around professionalism and making the gig work. I doubt they come into a venue and just brazenly say, "Oh the Rider is wrong, I know we came breezing in at 1 PM for a 7PM show, but you do really need to move all of the platforming, mic setup, and refocus lighting because our paperwork is crap. So no dinner break for you. Sorry. Where is the catering?" Next time I'm Advancing shows completely different. Not going to get burned again.


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## MikeJ (Nov 1, 2014)

derekleffew said:


> The most recent, up to date rider from a current national act:View attachment 11180
> 
> 
> Ten (10) trims per lamp!!! Excessive. Two should be more than enough.


Perfect example of an "up to date rider" No fricking way people are actually Requesting carbon arc spots these days.

"Management sent out the 2014 rider...oh wait that was 1974, oops. Those 7's look like 1's sometimes."


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## soundman (Nov 2, 2014)

MikeJ said:


> Perfect example of an "up to date rider" No fricking way people are actually Requesting carbon arc spots these days.
> 
> "Management sent out the 2014 rider...oh wait that was 1974, oops. Those 7's look like 1's sometimes."



No one is requesting them but it lists xeon or carbon arcs. If carbon arcs are all the venue has it us best to have enough rods for them. 

Coming from the touring side of the rider debate, there are some production managers that I have worked for that aren't great at advancing. They are great at shoe horning 13 trucks into a venue that thinks 6 trucks is a big show. It is frustrating to watch the rigger rechalk the floor in the morning but some people need to see it layed out to figure out how to cram it all in the building.


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## MikeJ (Nov 4, 2014)

soundman said:


> No one is requesting them but it lists xeon or carbon arcs.



Yes, a LIST of acceptable equipment, REQUESTED by the tour. Listing IS requesting. Same thing. No it is not just friendly maintenance advice, just in case that is what you have. 
You don't put things on you rider that you don't want.

Example, I just made it up, but holds true in may cases: FOH PA Listed in order of preference:
K1, or K2
NEXO GeoT
D&B J
NEXO Alpha
EV X-array

****JBL VERTEC IS NOT AN ACCEPTABLE SUBSTITUTE FOR A PA SYSTEM!***


Super Troupers went to xenon in the 80's; carbon arcs were quickly replaced. By the 90's there were some lingering in venues, but now we are taking 30 years after the tech was made obsolete.


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## Lextech (Nov 5, 2014)

Having dealt with all sorts of crazy riders and being the one who has to negotiate from the venue end riders are only as written in stone as the PM is insisting. If the artist absolutely has to have a certain item or the show can't go on, then they should tour with it. I am in the middle of nowhere, most time the backline comes from the music department or my house. If you can't play your guitar through a Deluxe, Twin or Musicman bring your own. But I have an advantage that many people don't, I get the riders before the contract is signed and mark them up. Any act playing my venue knows what they are getting before the advance (in theory, management sometimes forgets to pass along info to the act and I have to send them a copy of the signed rider). In this day and age, no act wants to back out of a gig, it costs too many people too much money. Communication and being honest about everything upfront goes a long way to making a smooth day. Oh and yes I have been on the other side of the coin and it works both ways.

I work occasionally in a venue where if they need more then the 8 Xenon Supers there the old Carbon arcs come out. Do the LDs like it? No, do they use them? If there is no other choice, you bet. As an aside, in my humble opinion, no spot looks as good as a well set up carbon arc.


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## soundman (Nov 5, 2014)

MikeJ said:


> Yes, a LIST of acceptable equipment, REQUESTED by the tour. Listing IS requesting. Same thing. No it is not just friendly maintenance advice, just in case that is what you have.
> You don't put things on you rider that you don't want.
> 
> Super Troupers went to xenon in the 80's; carbon arcs were quickly replaced. By the 90's there were some lingering in venues, but now we are taking 30 years after the tech was made obsolete.



Sadly some 30 year old buildings have not be upgraded and are still rocking carbon arcs. Asheville NC and Roanoke VA both come to mind, call em filler dates but you still have to get the show up. If you won't use the carbon arcs in house and the promoter has to bring in rental gear and extra labor you better have a damn good reason why. And lets face it, some of the stuff in a rider is to give promoter reps something to fight about in settlement. I've never gotten to pull the gig because local catering wasn't up in time and the only hot thing 'hot breakfast' the tour was paying $11 a head for was coffe.


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