# Buying truss



## GBtimex (Jan 25, 2012)

Control Booth,

My theatre is about to undergo massive upgrades and repair. One of the things we are looking to buy is truss to use as for front of house postions for lighting (mostly Source 4's) and other things as the need arises. We are only able to buy about 40 ft right now and I want to make sure I can get the most bang for my buck. 

Having worked with truss over the past few years I have some experience with putting it together and walking on it for repairs. That being said I am not a rigger nor a designer and would hate to buy something less useful due to ignorance.


I am currently looking at Tomcat 20.5" by 20.5" X10' Medium Truss. The 12 inch is too small I feel and the next step up too big. 

I have no strong opinions on bolts vs spigoted (having used both I think one is faster but that matters little to me).

We will be supporting this truss with 1 ton motors spread out as the riggers see fit. 

Does any one have any advice on what to get what not to get or what is good deal. I am looking at Tomcat and James Thompson company right now. If you have another company please suggest it. 

Thanks 

GBTimex


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## mstaylor (Jan 25, 2012)

GBtimex said:


> Control Booth,
> 
> My theatre is about to undergo massive upgrades and repair. One of the things we are looking to buy is truss to use as for front of house postions for lighting (mostly Source 4's) and other things as the need arises. We are only able to buy about 40 ft right now and I want to make sure I can get the most bang for my buck.
> 
> ...


 
If you aren't planning to walk the truss to focus then 12" or 16" should be fine. Depending on how many lights you plan to put on it you may be able to use 1/2 ton motors. That way you can get them set up for 110v and not need special power just to run motors. Either company is going to be quality gear and they can tell you motor size. 
Spigoted truss is rated higher than bolted truss. I am not sure the difference in rating though.


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## rochem (Jan 25, 2012)

I missed it at first, but it looks like you do intend to walk the truss. Is this a position that you have no access to from below, therefore you'll need to do all focus from the truss and such, or will truss-walking be a rare thing? I know of one larger regional theatre that uses swing wing for their FOH truss - more expensive, but the folded-up sides provide a nice hand-rail while at height. If that's out of your price range, HUD truss can also have handrails, although I personally don't like it nearly as much, but that's just me.

If you haven't, maybe take a look at some 12x30 ballroom truss. It has a slightly wider footprint, but it's can give you a few extra inches of trim if you're fighting a low ceiling, and I believe it's actually stronger than 20.5" box. Regardless, when using box truss in longer-term situations, at least where I've worked, it's common to cheeseborough a pipe down the center of the truss and hang instruments off of that, rather than attaching directly to the two bottom chords. It's certainly not required, but it is a bit easier to work with and it will help balance the weight out on the truss. Just something to keep in mind when you're looking at budgeting.


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## porkchop (Jan 26, 2012)

We use Xtreme Structures and Fabrication truss. They have a lot of different truss sizes so I'm sure you can find what you need. From what I understand XSF has competitive if not better prices than Tomcat for very similar equipment. As far as motors you can get 1 and even 2 ton motors from CM that run on single phase 115V so for a little extra money I'd go for the extra lifting power.


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## GBtimex (Jan 26, 2012)

Thanks for the suggestions.

Sorry if I was not being clear earlier.

I am not looking to walk on the truss at all. I have done this before in tours past but for my theatre I don't think that size of truss would be as useful.

The area I am looking to cover is the my orchestra pit and first downstage row of front light. An area about 60 ft by 30 ft. We have no positions there at the moment that can do back light and we have a LOT of people who play in that area. With more and more of my folks wanting to do video it's a big problem.

What I am looking for is something that can last me for the next 5 to 10 years and can also be used for bigger and heavier equipment. I want to make sure that we can hold some Mac 2ks and Christe projector if the need comes up. 

I was asking about bolt's vs spigotes simply because I have never heard a a good reason why one was taken over the other. I have banged my thumb enough time with bots that I like spigotes more but it's not a deal breaker. 


Armed with this new info do you think the 20.5 X 20.5 inch box truss is the best bang for my buck? 

GBTimex,


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## gafftaper (Jan 26, 2012)

It seems to me the first step would be for you to make some calls first to get some price quotes on both 16" and 20". It's hard for us to advise you on bang for the buck when we don't know how much the buck is.


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## egilson1 (Jan 26, 2012)

The thing to keep in mind is that if you will be climbing the truss to focus, you need to provide fall arrest. The size and construction of the truss can effect if you can even use the truss for PFAS attachment or if you would need to design the fall arrest to come from the structure of the building. Although the new standard for fall arrest in the entertainment business is still in the public review process, all three of the truss manufactures mentioned have had a hand in writing it and will be able to advise on the best product to suit you needs.


Regards,
Ethan
ETCP certified rigger
Arena & Theatre


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## FatherMurphy (Jan 26, 2012)

The height of a truss is usually the more important dimension for figuring load capacity, although design and materials also play a part. Generally speaking, 12x12 trusses need to be supported every 30', so if you're planning on lifting from the ends of a 40' stick, you should probably be looking at the larger size, as they are better able to span the distance. Most manufacturers can provide charts showing the allowable capacities for different spans.

As for bolts vs. spigoted, you do gain some capacity with spigots, mostly due to the fact that the connection points are a bit more widely spaced at each joint face. The importance of the gain depends largely on what you're doing with the truss - if you aren't loading it to the point of needing the extra capacity, then it's a lot more optional. If you think you might someday need to add on to the truss temporarily, you might think about getting truss that matches your local rental houses' truss, so you can intermingle easily. Also, if you strike and rehang the truss regularly, a lost bolt can be replaced at a hardware store, whereas a lost spigot will have to be ordered.


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## avkid (Jan 26, 2012)

FatherMurphy said:


> Also, if you strike and rehang the truss regularly, a lost bolt can be replaced at a hardware store, whereas a lost spigot will have to be ordered.


 Grainger or Fastenal maybe, but the average hardware store doesn't carry anything close.


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## kicknargel (Jan 29, 2012)

Really you should just get a rigger to calculate the span, load, etc. They can figure out the proper truss dimensions. Or they're not a real rigger.


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## MPowers (Jan 29, 2012)

If you stick with the major players, you can't go wrong as far as structure. Cost and local dealer support will, of course, vary from place to place.

My personal pick is TOTAL truss, Total Structures
simply because that is what we sell. However, TOTAL, Thomas, Tomcat are all very good products.

You can easily get spans in excess of 40' in almost every type of truss. I have listed a few of the TOTAL product line to give you an example: plf = pounds per lineal foot and 
udl = Uniform distributed load.

Type Truss ...Size...Type conn..40'.span...50' span..long span
.........................................plf ..udl ..plf ..udl ..feet ..plf.udl
Totalite....12x12..Spigot.........31 .1248 16.. 798. 50... 16. .798

OMNI Lt Duty..12x12.Bolt ......35 .1402. 10 . 517. 50. . 10. 517

OMNI Med Duty. 20x20..Bolt.110. 4417. 68.. 3381...80 . 8.. 645

Element 20....20x20 ... Bolt.. 65. 2596. 39. 1970. 60. 26 1532

OMNI Ex HD..48Hx24W..Bolt. 225 10983 170 8496 100. 8 770

In your area, give the guys at TSC (Texas Scenic Co. ) 
http://www.texasscenic.com/ a call, they'll give you excellent advice and product.

Hope this helps.


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## MPowers (Jan 29, 2012)

Looking at your situation from a different angle, if this is for FOH lighting on a permanent basis, maybe Chain hoists and truss are what your really want/need and then again, maybe not. This is where consulting a good rigging specialist can save you $$ and help you find the right product for the right use.

If there is no plan to walk the truss for focus, maybe a custom made pipe batten ladder truss is a viable option. For permanent installation, maybe a single clew winch would be cheaper than 2 or more chain hoists and you never have sync issues when raising or lowering. 

Just because truss and chain hoists were your first thought, don't lock yourself into that solution until you have investigated the other possibilities. Ask the guys at TSC http://www.texasscenic.com/ what they think.


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## Pie4Weebl (Jan 29, 2012)

Michael brings up a good suggestion, you might want to look into something like this: ETC Rigging - Theatre stage rigging


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## shiben (Jan 29, 2012)

avkid said:


> Grainger or Fastenal maybe, but the average hardware store doesn't carry anything close.


 
I have a Grainger less than 3 miles away, and did in my former city of residence as well. Also, most cities have industrial hardware suppliers in at least one if not tens of locations around the city, I would imagine. I would guess you probably have a similar number of Graingers near you...


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## Wood4321 (Jan 30, 2012)

shiben said:


> I have a Grainger less than 3 miles away, and did in my former city of residence as well. Also, most cities have industrial hardware suppliers in at least one if not tens of locations around the city, I would imagine. I would guess you probably have a similar number of Graingers near you...



I agree, tons of grainger locations.
However, I wouldn't call Grainger a "Hardware Store" 

I think what avkid was getting at is I don't think I have seen Grade 8 bolts at Home Depot or Lowes.


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## bishopthomas (Jan 30, 2012)

I only own 12" box bolted truss, so my opinions are based around that. I have Applied, Tomcat, and have used Thomas. My least favorite is Thomas, only because 1/2 moon washers are necessary. It's a total pain in the ass to line up the washer so that it fits between the hole and the side of the truss. It's great truss, but I refuse to buy it for that reason (plus I already have 100's of non half moon washers). I am slowly switching over from Applied to Tomcat as I have found the build quality of Tomcat to be far superior to that of Applied. Applied is still decent, and to be fair I am comparing their "all purpose" truss to Tomcat's heavy duty stuff. I have found it difficult to mate Tomcat corner blocks to Applied truss so I'm trying to switch to one manufacturer.

As far as the bolt/spigot dilemma, I'm a bit confused. Are you planning on breaking the truss every day? I thought this was for an install. If it's staying in the air then making/breaking the truss isn't a factor and load rating becomes the decision maker. But is there really enough of a difference in load rating to warrant the mating to be a deciding factor? I would say if you need to squeeze every last pound out of your load rating then you may want to rethink things a bit.

I would also suggest keeping the motor control simple. No need for 3 phase hoists, especially if this is a portable rig. Get Edisons on the end and a couple of pickles and away you go. Of course, if it's a permanent install and there's already power then that's a different story. The pickles could turn into a wall mount switch at that point too.


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## avkid (Jan 30, 2012)

Sorry, but no.
Pickles without an e-stop are not a safe situation.


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## bishopthomas (Jan 30, 2012)

I have never heard of anyone running a pickle system with an additional kill switch. Come to think of it, most motor controls I don't remember having a kill switch either. Looking at the Skjornberg web site I only see a few remotes with e-stops. A pickle is just a momentary contact switch, I don't see what's unsafe about that.


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## GBtimex (Jan 30, 2012)

avkid said:


> Grainger or Fastenal maybe, but the average hardware store doesn't carry anything close.


 

I have a Grainger and Fastenal right down the street. They know me quite well 

The hardware for this stuff isn't an issue. Just getting the right truss is the biggest concern.


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## avkid (Jan 30, 2012)

bishopthomas said:


> I have never heard of anyone running a pickle system with an additional kill switch. Come to think of it, most motor controls I don't remember having a kill switch either.  Looking at the Skjornberg web site I only see a few remotes with e-stops. A pickle is just a momentary contact switch, I don't see what's unsafe about that.


 I have had pickles get stuck on.
Every motor distro has some means of shutting off power if there's a malfunction.
That and operating more than one at a time with a pickle is really annoying.


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## porkchop (Jan 31, 2012)

avkid said:


> Sorry, but no.
> Pickles without an e-stop are not a safe situation.


 
Nothing that I would call a pickle has an e-stop. I agree with bishopthomas that a pickle is momentary. In my experience that means only up or down for one motor that you are very close to (aka running up to tension or down for storage). But FWIW IMHO further discussion on what a pickle is should be moved to a new topic since you've already said that the rigging will be done by qualified riggers other than yourself.


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## len (Jan 31, 2012)

avkid said:


> Grainger or Fastenal maybe, but the average hardware store doesn't carry anything close.



SOME Ace stores have Grade 8 (I think that's the grade) bolts in stock. But if you're using bolted truss, you should always have extras in stock. But if you have to buy them, most rigging companies will overnight what you need.


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## FatherMurphy (Jan 31, 2012)

It appears I was a bit too imprecise by using the term 'hardware store'....

The point I was trying to make was that if you're missing the truss's joining hardware, and you have a crew standing around, and the show is tonight, what's your preferred option? Driving across town to an industrial supply store? Or calling someone in another state and asking for a rush shipment?

A moot point if you build it once, and leave it in place.

And yes, since I live in an agricultural area, there's a number of farmer's hardware stores near me that do carry graded hardware, although I grant the point that the average suburban DIY big-box store probably won't carry it (same logic as why they don't carry three pole circuit breakers - their average customer probably doesn't have any business messing with things at that level).


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## Wood4321 (Feb 1, 2012)

For bishopthomas as well as anyone else.
As a general rule, I would not mix and match truss manufacturers.
In fact if a rental house ever sent me more than one brand of truss, I most likely would send it back, unless it was just being used as a decoration. (with no load, and minimal spans)
Once you start mixing up manufacturers equipment, there is no way to accurately determine the amount of weight that can safely be loaded upon a truss.

(Of course, if your thomas/Tomcat rep signed off on this arrangement, I will stand corrected)


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## itie (Feb 29, 2012)

hey,

Im Looking to buy a couple of pieces of trusses and started to ask for quotes. I was wondering what the avg. price on 6 or 8 foot 12" box truss is. 

There is a company that has a special right now for $368 a piece. Is this a good deal?
I haven't heard of them but my main concern is that if I do buy truss from them is it compatible with other manufactures. Im worried that if i had to rent more that they wouldn't link together. 

thanks 
Giovanni


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## Footer (Feb 29, 2012)

itie said:


> hey,
> 
> Im Looking to buy a couple of pieces of trusses and started to ask for quotes. I was wondering what the avg. price on 6 or 8 foot 12" box truss is.
> 
> ...



Who is the manufacture? Also, its really not a good idea to mix truss brands. Truss is engineered to work together as a unit. One piece of truss even if it looks the same as another can have very different loading characteristics.


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## porkchop (Mar 1, 2012)

itie said:


> hey,
> 
> Im Looking to buy a couple of pieces of trusses and started to ask for quotes. I was wondering what the avg. price on 6 or 8 foot 12" box truss is.
> 
> ...



XSF makes top quality truss, but I don't believe their stuff is as easy to find at rental houses as Tomcat truss is. I know that you can mix some Tomcat 20" x 20" truss with XSF 20" x 20" and I wouldn't be surprised if their 12" box truss is designed to be compatible as well. They have great customer service as well so you can probably call them, tell them your situation, and they'll be able to tell you if this would work for you or not.

PS. Footer they make all their own truss, They're actually a great resource for custom metal fab jobs especially if they're large scale and/or have to be weight bearing.


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## bishopthomas (Mar 2, 2012)

I'll also recommend Tomcat. We're switching over to using their truss exclusively.


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## itie (Mar 3, 2012)

Thanks guys this is great info. My only question now is base plates. Are they universal or do I also have to order them from the same company as the truss maker. 

thank you
Giovanni


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## avkid (Mar 3, 2012)

Base plate configuration depends on the bolt pattern, so get them from the manufacturer.


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## BillESC (Mar 3, 2012)

itie said:


> Thanks guys this is great info. My only question now is base plates. Are they universal or do I also have to order them from the same company as the truss maker.
> 
> thank you
> Giovanni



Check with one or two of your local rental houses, you'll want to buy the same brand of truss they stock for rental.


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## porkchop (Mar 4, 2012)

itie said:


> Thanks guys this is great info. My only question now is base plates. Are they universal or do I also have to order them from the same company as the truss maker.
> 
> thank you
> Giovanni



By base plates are you talking about where the pieces of truss are bolted together, a place where wheels would be installed on the truss, or something else? Bolt patterns are not universal, but wheel plates are less important and can be mixed.


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## derekleffew (Mar 4, 2012)

porkchop said:


> By base plates are you talking about ... or something else? ...


The bottom of a truss tower (DJs call it a totem.).


Pro Audio Gear: XSF X-24-UBP-ALUM 24x24" Aluminum Universal Truss Base Plate

Usually drilled for both 12x12" and 20.5x20.5", and 3'x3' or 4'x4'. Since in this case heavy is desirable, often made of steel rather than aluminum.


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## bishopthomas (Mar 4, 2012)

I have Applied 24" and 36" raised base plates: Floor Plates Applied Electronics They're aluminum so sandbags are necessary, but the steel ones are ridiculously heavy to carry. The Applied ones work with my Applied and Tomcat trusses. They're also quite a bit less expensive than others I have seen.


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