# Average LD salary



## masterelectrician2112 (Dec 9, 2009)

Hey CB!
I would like to become a lighting designer for my career, but I want to know what the average yearly salary is for this career. Thanks in advance!


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## erosing (Dec 9, 2009)

First, you'd be assuming you can find an open salaried position. Also do a search the subject of money has come up before. The following will get you started though.

http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/collaborative-articles/9123-getting-job-industry.html


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## Footer (Dec 9, 2009)

Your paid a lump sum gig to gig. Salaried lighting designers do not exist, at least not that often in the theatre world. Your paid a sum that does not have taxes, social security, medicare, or whatever other charges are taken out of your paycheck. Added to that, your not getting any benefits or retirement. You might bring in 50k a year if you are good, but that gets eaten up quick come tax time. Added to that, you have the overhead of buying a computer, paying an accountant, keeping software up to date, incidental travel expenses, paying an assistant if needed, keeping an apartment that you will never see, or whatever else you can think of. 

Most gigs can pay from 100 to 5,000 per show. Usually it takes about a 2 weeks worth of time to put up a show. That time can be spread over months, but your going to be spending at least 14 days working on the show from pre-production to opening. That can change depending on the theatre and the caliber of the show. Broadway LD's still do 10-15 shows per year. 

To "make it" as an LD, most people want to be doing at least 2 shows a month, if not 3. In order to pull that off you not only need to be working at multiple theatres but also be working in multiple cities. 

Its a hard road to get started at. If you can get your USA829 card it get a bit easier and the money gets better. Still though, its a hard road to go up. Working as an assistant in between gigs for other designers is the way to get started. 

So, as far as a salary goes... there is no way to predertermine it. Of all of my freinds that are soley designers in NYC, none of them are only doing that. One has a temp job in an office, another does the waiter thing. 

Because LD's can work so many shows a year, they are less in demand then scenic and costume designers. A costume designer or scenic designer has a good year if they do 5 or 6 shows. They are paid much more but they are usually on site for much longer. 

If you want to do the M.E and LD thing all rolled into one that opens a few doors for you at smaller companies. That can also close doors for you later on. It has been said that when you move to NYC you have two choice, your either a designer or a technician and once you pick one don't look back. You can argue that one however you want, but I am just throwing it out there.


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## xander (Dec 9, 2009)

It's kind of difficult to give an accurate "average" for a career that can take you to maaaany different areas. The range is going to be anywhere from a few thousand to several hundred thousand. It might be easier if you pick an area that you think you would like to pursue. Do you want be a lighting design teacher in a High School? or College? or do you want to me a resident designer in regional theater? Freelancer? Off-Off and Off-Broadway? Broadway? or do you want to do corporate and event stuff? or be a big time concert designer like the likes of Willie Williams?


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## masterelectrician2112 (Dec 9, 2009)

Wow! Great response time! Thank you! I think I will try to go the ME+LD route.


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## masterelectrician2112 (Dec 9, 2009)

I would love to be a concert LD/ME if I could make enough money to get by, but I would be happy in any field that you listed, xander. Thanks for that insight.


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## erosing (Dec 9, 2009)

Don't overlook community theatres either, some are horrible, some are amazing. But at the very least they'll give you time to expiriment. It's not a bad start, especially if you're bored. I've made some good contacts with some that I've worked for, glad I did because those come in handy later.


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## xander (Dec 9, 2009)

There's a lot of money to be had in the music and corporate areas, far more than theater. It is also a bit of a different skill set. Not to say that the properties of light change, but the way you go about it can be pretty different, i.e. lots more movers, busking vs cue stack, etc. I don't have any experience in concert lighting, but I am sure there are some good CBers out there that may have some insight.

-Tim


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## xander (Dec 9, 2009)

I went back and forth on whether to include community theater or not in the (not intended to be extensive) list, but I finally settled on not because working in community theater isn't really a career. I am not trying to be demeaning in any way. Community theater can be great and plays a crucial role in the business/communities. The fact is though, most people working in community theater are either getting their career *started*, or do it voluntarily. That is what community theater is.

end tangent
But, if theater is what you want to pursue, community theater is a *great* place to get started.


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## Footer (Dec 9, 2009)

masterelectrician2112 said:


> Wow! Great response time! Thank you! I think I will try to go the ME+LD route.



One more question... how do you feel about 7 years of college after you graduate from High School?


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## erosing (Dec 9, 2009)

Which is why I brought it up, I'm assuming the OP is still in highschool. It's not meant to be a career generally, but as I meant, and as you said, it's not a bad place to start.


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## masterelectrician2112 (Dec 9, 2009)

Tim, 
Your post has gotten me curious. I attended a Rush concert about a year ago, and the lighting was very much like it is on the DVD. It looks like it was done with cue stacks. How much of concert lighting is busking and how much is actual cue stacks?


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## Footer (Dec 9, 2009)

Arez said:


> Which is why I brought it up, I'm assuming the OP is still in highschool. It's not meant to be a career generally, but as I meant, and as you said, it's not a bad place to start.



I am working at a community theatre right now. Granted, we have 3 people full time and pay our SM's, Directors, and Designers. I am making a pretty good living here and getting benefits and retirement. It is not the norm for a community theatre, but it works. This job allows me to still go do summer work and pick up work at other places while still pulling in a steady pay check and keeping up benefits for myself and my wife. 

Anymore, a gig is a gig. If you are working and have benefits and consistent hours its hard to leave that. There are way too many people out of work right now to be choosy.


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## erosing (Dec 9, 2009)

Depends on the concert.


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## gafftapegreenia (Dec 9, 2009)

All this talk about the issue of benefits, if only America had a public healthcare option........


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## masterelectrician2112 (Dec 9, 2009)

Yes, I am a sophomore in high school. As for the seven years of college, well, nobody ever said it was going to be easy, but seven years? That surprised me. I knew I would at least want a bachelor's degree, but I did not know that the education for working in this industry would extend past that. What kind of degree should I get?


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## derekleffew (Dec 9, 2009)

According to the USA829 LORT rate schedule, minimum design fee per show varies from $2458-$5776 depending on the size of the company. It is unlikely that many, if any, are doing more than ten shows per year. See also the article from _Live Design_: You Can't Afford To Be A Lighting Designer.


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## masterelectrician2112 (Dec 9, 2009)

gafftapegreenia said:


> If only America has a public healthcare option........


 

Right.....  Don't even get me started on politics because you will never hear the end of it!


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## erosing (Dec 9, 2009)

Footer said:


> I am working at a community theatre right now. Granted, we have 3 people full time and pay our SM's, Directors, and Designers. I am making a pretty good living here and getting benefits and retirement. It is not the norm for a community theatre, but it works. This job allows me to still go do summer work and pick up work at other places while still pulling in a steady pay check and keeping up benefits for myself and my wife.
> 
> Anymore, a gig is a gig. If you are working and have benefits and consistent hours its hard to leave that. There are way too many people out of work right now to be choosy.



Which is why I emphasized generally, your company, and the handful of others like it are great careers. However, they are a different breed of community theatre, as you said.


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## Footer (Dec 9, 2009)

derekleffew said:


> According to the USA829 LORT rate schedule, minimum design fee per show varies from $2458-$5776 depending on the size of the company. It is unlikely that many, if any, are doing more than ten shows per year. See also the article from _Live Design_: You Can't Afford To Be A Lighting Designer.



If you are USA and working LORT houses 10 shows is a lot. If you are working smaller theatres or summerstock, you need to do a lot more to pull it off. I know one guy in Kansas City that does nearly every dinner theatre and summerstock in a 200 mile radius to Kansas city.


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## gafftapegreenia (Dec 9, 2009)

derekleffew said:


> According to the USA829 LORT rate schedule, minimum design fee per show varies from $2458-$5776 depending on the size of the company. It is unlikely that many, if any, are doing more than ten shows per year. See also the article from _Live Design_: You Can't Afford To Be A Lighting Designer.



Which is why I always have to chuckle whenever I meet one of my fresh-faced peers who so eagerly can't wait to tell the world how much they "just want to be a real Lighting Designer". However if I had a nickle for everyone one of those kids that can barely focus a light let alone create a light plot, I could afford to Design. They just don't know what they think they're getting themselves into. My TD, in the Freshman Stagecraft class, one of the first things he tells every class is "don't do theatre". I think he has a point. It's not just a job, it's a lifestyle choice. (Even had to explain to my parents that man does not live on Design alone, and that the Entertainent Industry needs alot more than just Jules Fishers)


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## xander (Dec 9, 2009)

Footer said:


> I am working at a community theatre right now. Granted, we have 3 people full time and pay our SM's, Directors, and Designers. I am making a pretty good living here and getting benefits and retirement. It is not the norm for a community theatre, but it works. This job allows me to still go do summer work and pick up work at other places while still pulling in a steady pay check and keeping up benefits for myself and my wife.
> 
> Anymore, a gig is a gig. If you are working and have benefits and consistent hours its hard to leave that. There are way too many people out of work right now to be choosy.



I am curious as to why this theater of yours is called a "Community Theater" at all if it has so many full-time and paid employees. I would call that a professional theater. I have always thought of the very definition of "Community Theater" is a theater that does not have these conditions. I.e. is mostly volunteer with maybe a very small administrative staff, like an AD and GM.

-Tim


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## erosing (Dec 9, 2009)

Non-Profit still. Would that be correct Kyle?


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## Footer (Dec 9, 2009)

We are not for profit and we do not pay our crew or our actors, they completely volunteer. Added to that, we do not pull people from outside of the capital region to be in our shows. The only reason we have paid positions and we pay our designers/directors/staff is to raise the production value of the shows. I call it semi-professional community theatre. If we did not have volunteers from the community we would not be able to put shows up.


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## journeymanjohn (Dec 9, 2009)

In my community theter days, I always got paid. Never as much as what the work was worth, but it was a little bit of extra cash,...for doing something I enjoyed.

Depnding on the show, I would get about $250-$500 (early/mid 90s). Design, hang, and run. Often alone, occassionally with the man who taught me helping. One of us would run audio, the other lighting.

Actually, I was surprised that we were the ONLY ones getting paid, but we negotiated that going in up front and in writing, with a letter of agreement. It helped that there were so few of us "certified" to either work Electrics, Audio, or Stage Manage and it was required by the PAC that at least one certified person in each of the areas was onsite for rehearsals/performance, as that created just a bit of a demand to justify some cash. Of course, the few shows that flopped had us waiting on our money a few times too. The concept of sharing a piece of the "door" was bounced around some too (by them when it was a bust, by us when it was SRO).

Good luck in your efforts. Just remember... doing something for a "living" is much different than doing the same for pleasure and as an artistic outlet.


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## icewolf08 (Dec 10, 2009)

xander said:


> I am curious as to why this theater of yours is called a "Community Theater" at all if it has so many full-time and paid employees. I would call that a professional theater. I have always thought of the very definition of "Community Theater" is a theater that does not have these conditions. I.e. is mostly volunteer with maybe a very small administrative staff, like an AD and GM.
> 
> -Tim




Footer said:


> We are not for profit and we do not pay our crew or our actors, they completely volunteer. Added to that, we do not pull people from outside of the capital region to be in our shows. The only reason we have paid positions and we pay our designers/directors/staff is to raise the production value of the shows. I call it semi-professional community theatre. If we did not have volunteers from the community we would not be able to put shows up.



I don't think there is any rule that says that community theatres can't have full time staff that get paid and benefits and all. There are plenty of community theatres that operate in a "professional" manner. I think, as has been mentioned that the big differences are where you pull your talent from and if they are union or not. I think that a community theatre can even pay their talent, the stipulation being that the talent and the staff come from the local community.


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## xander (Dec 10, 2009)

icewolf08 said:


> I don't think there is any rule that says that community theatres can't have full time staff that get paid and benefits and all. There are plenty of community theatres that operate in a "professional" manner. I think, as has been mentioned that the big differences are where you pull your talent from and if they are union or not. I think that a community theatre can even pay their talent, the stipulation being that the talent and the staff come from the local community.



I guess that makes sense. Silly college educations, they can't get everything right!!


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## kenneth (Dec 10, 2009)

I too want to be a LD, and do both that and am board op in secondary school (high school). 

Sorry to sound stupid, but what is an ME?

Kenneth


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## mstaylor (Dec 10, 2009)

I did a show Saturday that had a barbershop quartet in it. All four were music teacher ranging from middle school to college. When they were introducing the members the lead said one wasn't currently teaching but had instead left to take a job in professional theatre because of the money. I thought imediately to myself that isn't a move up, lateral at best.


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## erosing (Dec 10, 2009)

ME = Master Electrician


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## photoatdv (Dec 10, 2009)

The Master Electrician is the individual responsible for hang, circuit, and focus of the rig in accordance with the LD's design. He or she also is normally responsible for repairs and maintenance and oversees the techs (moving light tech, ect) and electrics crew. On smaller shows (and often in school) the LD is the ME. It is important that the ME is familiar with circuit capacities and electrical safety, rigging/ hang procedures (for lighting) to a varying degree depending on the production.

On a high school black box show the LD/ME might hang 10-20 fixtures on an existing grid (with safeties of course) and plug them into pigtails, replace a couple of burned out lamps, then return to LD territory.

On an arena tour however, the ME would tie in or oversee the tie in of multiple 200-600A distros, oversee a crew of 20+ electricians during hang (from truss), ensure that the circuiting does not overload the circuits, keep phases balanced, keep a manageable cabling scheme, make sure all units are in proper working order, oversee several LED/ ML/ general techs, and several assistant ME's. He or she would need to be familiar with high voltage electricity and tie in procedures, rigging (to ensure that the methods used to hang the lighting doesn't compromise the integrity of the rigging), and have great management skills.


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## Footer (Dec 10, 2009)

photoatdv said:


> On an arena tour however, the ME would tie in or oversee the tie in of multiple 200-600A distros, oversee a crew of 20+ electricians during hang (from truss), ensure that the circuiting does not overload the circuits, keep phases balanced, keep a manageable cabling scheme, make sure all units are in proper working order, oversee several LED/ ML/ general techs, and several assistant ME's. He or she would need to be familiar with high voltage electricity and tie in procedures, rigging (to ensure that the methods used to hang the lighting doesn't compromise the integrity of the rigging), and have great management skills.



That person is usually called a Lighting Crew Chief or Head Electrician. The term Master Electrician is being phased out, moving towards the more P.C. term of Head Electrician or Production Electrician. Also few if any houses will allow a road crew to tie in power themselves. Usually the House Electrician does that. Not to nit pick....


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## MrsFooter (Dec 10, 2009)

Footer said:


> That person is usually called a Lighting Crew Chief or Head Electrician. The term Master Electrician is being phased out, moving towards the more P.C. term of Head Electrician or Production Electrician. Also few if any houses will allow a road crew to tie in power themselves. Usually the House Electrician does that. Not to nit pick....



Not to disagree with your nit picking, but in our space we will not tie in the power to a road show by ourselves without a road tech around. While yes, it is a house person who does the physical tie, we always make sure that there is a road guy as an active part of the process, watching each step closely with regards to their gear.

Because after all, it's not _our_ gear that gets fried if a mistake is made.

In relevance to the OP, let's put it this way. You can make enough to survive, and even live comfortably. (Meaning without large debts and with a few frivolities.) But if salary is a large concern of yours beyond paying the rent, then you should probably look into another career.


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## len (Dec 10, 2009)

A couple points that I think should be re-emphasized:

1. Skimming through the posts, it's apparent to me that the job description depends on a lot of factors. So the more you know, the better off you are.

2. Success as an LD, or ME, or whatever, depends a lot on you. That's one aspect of the industry that appeals to me. You do good work and they keep calling.

As for being on salary, I believe there are a couple LD for bands, but not many. The band pays the salary, with the understanding the LD will be able to go to whatever one-off the band books at the last minute. I believe the guy who works/worked for Phish is like that, but not sure. 

Also, this is like every other industry. You've got to pay your dues. No one (almost) starts at the top. You've got to put your time in dragging feeder through the mud at the local dirt fest. You've got to spend your time bench focusing lights for hours on end. Become an expert at the basics before you can move up.


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## Footer (Dec 10, 2009)

len said:


> As for being on salary, I believe there are a couple LD for bands, but not many. The band pays the salary, with the understanding the LD will be able to go to whatever one-off the band books at the last minute. I believe the guy who works/worked for Phish is like that, but not sure.



I know a few sound guys that are on that system. He is essentially on retainer like a lawyer would be. He is paid a decent amount (not enough to survive on, but enough to pay rent) when he is not working with the understanding that if they call him he could be anywhere in 48 hours. When he is out he gets his day rate.


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## kicknargel (Dec 10, 2009)

Another job (career? maybe) option is to work in a road house. Some days you're a deck hand, some days an ME, some days maybe an LD for mid-level road show (I'm doing one of these tonight). I do it as a sideline, but the crew makes around $14/hr plus medical (it's a university). There are only two full time positions, but I bet other places may have more.

Nick Kargel
www.youwantwhatproductions.com


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## wfor (Dec 10, 2009)

How rare do you all imagine a resident LD would be? I imagine they would frequently be a ME also...

I feel like a "semi-professional" theatre (see earlier posts...) would have a sound/lighting guy on staff typically.


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## mstaylor (Dec 10, 2009)

As someone that ties power in for road shows all the time, the house electrician does the hook-up and energizes/deenergizes the system. I always have the road guy look at the tap and sometimes they even meter it, but they really have nothing to do with tapping anything. 
ME is a theatre term only, in my experience, but even there it is becoming head electician. In the concert world I have never heard the ME term at all. 
As far as making a living, learn everything in college you can. Do electrics, carps, sound and video if available. Many shows are starting to run media from the lighting board.


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## Footer (Dec 10, 2009)

wfor said:


> How rare do you all imagine a resident LD would be? I imagine they would frequently be a ME also...
> 
> I feel like a "semi-professional" theatre (see earlier posts...) would have a sound/lighting guy on staff typically.



Resident LD's are common in dance companies. Even at the theatre I work at we rotate designers. For the show that we are about to open I am playing LD, Scenic Designer, and TD and PE. I am getting paid extra for the designs, but I am still doing the work. For the last show we did I did not design a thing. 

Electricians/carps/wardrobe/stitchers/TD's/Audio Engineers are nearly always hired for a season. Artistic staff on the other hand are hired show to show. There are theatre companies out there that will hire one person to be the "lighting guy". Usually this position does more electrical work then design and is not paid all that well. They are there to light the stage. In the concert world however (at least on the smaller club tours) most LD's are also the head electrician for the tour. They haul cable just like anyone else. It is not until you get to the big leagues that the LD can roll off the bus and run the show and even then its rare. 

Most theatres try to not have resident designers. They might have a pool of designers they use often, but they are not given every show. It tends to stagnate the design of shows if you have the same person every show. You don't hire the same designers every time just like you don't hire the same actor to play the lead or the same director. Different people are better for different shows.


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## JChenault (Dec 11, 2009)

RE salary and ( more importantly ) what it is like to be a lighting designer. If you can go to a USITT convention. The Hemsley foundation typically does a session there where they get three to six lighting designers and they talk about the profession - what their life is like, etc. That is where you will find some answers.

I do know that a lot of successful designers have moved from being freelance designers to teaching and being freelance designers. I believe the statement was retirement and medical insurance tipped the balance.


Re community theatre - My impression is that there are not a lot that hire full time designers. I work with a community theatre that does six musicals a year. Total budget for the operation is around 1.1 million. They have six folks that are full time employees, but none of them are designers. We do job in our designers and pay the lighting designer about $900 per show to hang, focus, and cue.


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