# Cue Light Systems



## danTt

Hello,

I'm starting to look into replacing the cue light system in one of the venues I work in. Currently it's run on a pair of creatively modified 3x multi cables, using the grounds as hots/neutrals to achieve a total of 8 cue lights, which then breaks out into zip cord of variously scary lengths. The run for these varies from 150-250 feet, depending on where on stage the lights need to end up.

It seems to me it wouldn't be difficult to separate the power and data in a cue light system, which would allow me to run one cat5 or even dmx line from the booth to a distro on stage, which would then power the lights. All the systems I've found though power LED's, and I'd love to be able to use incandescent bulbs or rope light for the cues, rather than rely on small LED's. Does anyone know of such a system? It would need to be semi-portable, as the venue is rented for the summer and everything needs to be loaded in/struck each year. If there is nothing predesigned, how difficult would this be to homebrew? It seems like it wouldn't be too difficult, but keeping it future proof and maintainable scares me.

Thanks,


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## Footer

There is the modern LED systems that daisy chain... but you are right, they are not as bright as traditional "baskets". There is one other easy option out there, DJ dimmer packs and a cheap lighting console. All of which could be purchases for a few hundred bucks. Beats the hell out of the huge looms many places use to get the cue lights out to the tech table.


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## cpf

If you're up to DIYing it, could easily do it with ethernet, Wi-Fi, generic RF, a low-speed 2-wire serial connection (over XLR) daisy-chained to all the cue lights (in descending order of price).

Orrr, for a cut-and-dried solution, use Easy to use Digital Theatre Cue Light this system, and the relay outstation model controlling low-voltage lamps powered from wall-wart supplies.


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## rochem

Well I don't know if this is what you're after, but Motion Labs makes a switchable distro that's becoming more of the norm for running cue lights/work lights on Broadway and tours. It's essentially a 120V distro with cam inputs and 24-72 20A 2P&G outputs, and a controller box that resembles a large chain hoist remote that connects to the distro with a cable. The remote sits at the SM console, and when she throws the switches, it turns the individual outputs on the distro on or off. There's also the ability to turn on multiple lights in groups with a master switch. The large remote is rather cumbersome for a stage manager's console, but they also make a rack-mount switch unit that most show try to get. It works really well, and it keeps you from needing to run tons of cable to switch boxes at the SM console and makes it very easy to move the remote.

A brief look at Motion Labs website didn't turn anything up, but if you're interested, you could call up Motion Labs directly and get the specs. Since you said this is a rental, PRG Secaucus sends out a bunch of these, so talk to your rep if you rent from there, or let me know and I can call up and find out. Hope that helps!


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## danTt

rochem said:


> Well I don't know if this is what you're after, but Motion Labs makes a switchable distro that's becoming more of the norm for running cue lights/work lights on Broadway and tours. It's essentially a 120V distro with cam inputs and 24-72 20A 2P&G outputs, and a controller box that resembles a large chain hoist remote that connects to the distro with a cable. The remote sits at the SM console, and when she throws the switches, it turns the individual outputs on the distro on or off. There's also the ability to turn on multiple lights in groups with a master switch. The large remote is rather cumbersome for a stage manager's console, but they also make a rack-mount switch unit that most show try to get. It works really well, and it keeps you from needing to run tons of cable to switch boxes at the SM console and makes it very easy to move the remote.
> 
> A brief look at Motion Labs website didn't turn anything up, but if you're interested, you could call up Motion Labs directly and get the specs. Since you said this is a rental, PRG Secaucus sends out a bunch of these, so talk to your rep if you rent from there, or let me know and I can call up and find out. Hope that helps!



This is along the lines of what I'm looking for, but much bigger than what I need. This cue light system only needs to run 8-10 lights at most, and would probably be a purchase for a summer theater. I might investigate if they have smaller versions, because it is along the lines of what I want. What's the cable connecting them look like? Is it similar to their motor pd cables? Is it repairable?


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## rochem

danTt said:


> This is along the lines of what I'm looking for, but much bigger than what I need. This cue light system only needs to run 8-10 lights at most, and would probably be a purchase for a summer theater. I might investigate if they have smaller versions, because it is along the lines of what I want. What's the cable connecting them look like? Is it similar to their motor pd cables? Is it repairable?


 
The cable visually resembles their motor controller cables, but I can't tell you the pinout or anything. If I recall correctly, the cable was permanently connected to the remote similar to their motor controllers, but it may be removable. I've only ever seen/used these as PRG rental gear, so I don't know if they make smaller versions than 24-way. I'd definitely give Motion Labs a call to see what they have available. They do a lot of custom work, and even if they don't make a 12-way, it might not be prohibitively expensive to have them build you one.


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## Beans45601

I just installed my GAM cue light system and I am pretty happy with it. I wish the controller box had more heft to it so you could switch the switches without having to hold onto it.


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## mstaylor

Beans45601 said:


> I just installed my GAM cue light system and I am pretty happy with it. I wish the controller box had more heft to it so you could switch the switches without having to hold onto it.


Velcro or double sided tape should fix that problem.


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## jmabray

Global Design Solutions out of the UK makes a pretty good Cue Light System. 

CueSystem


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## gafftapegreenia

GAM Go-Lite because it uses 6 wire telephone cable, which is much cheaper than even the worst microphone cable, and very easy to terminate to custom lengths.


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## derekleffew

True, but CAT5 (RJ45 8P8C) cable is more ubiquitous, and allows for more circuits. I wonder why GAM decided on the RJ12 6P6C ?

Perhaps, just like 5pin DMX, it was solely to distinguish itself from other uses, and dam the cost/convenience to the end user.


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## gafftapegreenia

derekleffew said:


> True, but CAT5 (RJ45 8P8C) cable is more ubiquitous, and allows for more circuits. I wonder why GAM decided on the RJ12 6P6C ?
> 
> Perhaps, just like 5pin DMX, it was solely to distinguish itself from other uses, and dam the cost/convenience to the end user.


 
That what I said to them at USITT! But they insisted they wanted a cable that was cheap and available at every Walmart and Target.


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## Chris15

gafftapegreenia said:


> That what I said to them at USITT! But they insisted they wanted a cable that was cheap and available at every Walmart and Target.



Cat5 is generally available more widely but tends to be more expensive for the same length than 6 core (at least down here)

We also tend to find a lot of them might be 6 position connectors but not a lot are wired with all 6 cores...

The solution of course if to install 8P8C sockets and just use the centre 6 connections and then you can use either...


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## druma159

Have you looked at NuDelta. They have a pretty cheap and reliable system. Plus its all xlr. So getting it to stage isn't that hard. NuDelta Digital


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## zmb

gafftapegreenia said:


> That what I said to them at USITT! But they insisted they wanted a cable that was cheap and available at every Walmart and Target.


I've seen CAT5 at least at Target. Should be available in the electronics area.


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## Footer

All of the LED/modular systems are great if your in a black box or cueing the rail etc. However, they are not going to work for deck shifts in a large venue. Its common to have 2-3 different baskets on each side of stage, hanging at least 20' off deck from service truss. They have to be bright enough to compete with full stage lighting and be seen from 60' away. None of the LED systems do that. They also have to be able to be seen when they are not on. Also, not something the LED systems do well. Don't get me wrong, the LED systems are great, but they are not perfect. The GDS system is the only thing that comes close in my opinion:


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## dramatech

danTt said:


> Hello,
> 
> I'm starting to look into replacing the cue light system in one of the venues I work in. Currently it's run on a pair of creatively modified 3x multi cables, using the grounds as hots/neutrals to achieve a total of 8 cue lights, which then breaks out into zip cord of variously scary lengths. The run for these varies from 150-250 feet, depending on where on stage the lights need to end up.
> 
> It seems to me it wouldn't be difficult to separate the power and data in a cue light system, which would allow me to run one cat5 or even dmx line from the booth to a distro on stage, which would then power the lights. All the systems I've found though power LED's, and I'd love to be able to use incandescent bulbs or rope light for the cues, rather than rely on small LED's. Does anyone know of such a system? It would need to be semi-portable, as the venue is rented for the summer and everything needs to be loaded in/struck each year. If there is nothing predesigned, how difficult would this be to homebrew? It seems like it wouldn't be too difficult, but keeping it future proof and maintainable scares me.
> 
> Thanks,



If you are interested in making your own, you could google Carl's kits, and look at the VEK8023 10 channel remote control. It will trigger 10 circuits, and can run down zipcord, phone wire or audio cable. It will require soldering, but the instructions are terrific.
It will trigger LEDs direct, but if you want higher current devices to be triggered, you will need relays. There are kits for adding on relays to the remote control board. K6714 (8 relays) or K6714-16 (16 relays).
You can find inexpensive cases, power supplies and switches, to finish out the project at mpja.com. You will also find many LED options at the same sight for very little money. At Carl's Kits, you can download the pdf instructions to see if it is something that you would feel comfortable doing.

I have built several systems using these parts. The kits are actually manufactured in Belgium by Velleman and are first rate quality.

Tom Johnson
Florida's Most Honored Community Theatre


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## n1ist

Another option is using Doug Fleenor's 24-channel low power dimmer driving C7-based incandescents, or if you are in to DIY, a Renard16SS or 24SS board from the Christmas lighting guys.
/mike


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## jglodeklights

This Chauvet product is what we use at my theater to distribute power to cue lights. It has 8 outs, is cheap enough to buy two, and can be easily labeled with any 1/4"-1/2" label maker.


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## EustaceM

*Cue light system*

Does anyone know of a non-permanent cue light system? 
Warn cast & crew. Aknowledable button. Go button. 

Hopefully one that additional stations can be added when need be


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## cpf

http://www.leonaudio.com.au/index.htm#Cue Light is what I've seen being used a number of places. It's fully digital and addressable.


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## rochem

Footer said:


> All of the LED/modular systems are great if your in a black box or cueing the rail etc. However, they are not going to work for deck shifts in a large venue. Its common to have 2-3 different baskets on each side of stage, hanging at least 20' off deck from service truss. They have to be bright enough to compete with full stage lighting and be seen from 60' away. None of the LED systems do that. They also have to be able to be seen when they are not on. Also, not something the LED systems do well. Don't get me wrong, the LED systems are great, but they are not perfect.



I must have missed this quote earlier, but I couldn't agree more. My school uses the Leon Audio system that has just been posted, and while it's admittedly much easier to set up and strike on a regular basis, they're nowhere near as effective or versatile as traditional baskets. As Footer said, it's much more difficult to see them from far away, and most systems don't allow you the flexibility to have three different colors at various positions around the theatre. And, for me personally, it's much easier to take cues from an on/off state of a switch rather than waiting for a dim yellow LED to change to a dim green LED, then start flashing at me. 

For example, most big shows these days will have three cue lights at the rail, and they do this by plugging a ~30' length of colored rope light each cue light circuit, then running the rope light behind the arbors along the length of the rail. So no matter where you're standing on the rail, the cue lights are always directly in front of you. Try finding an ideal place to put three LED cue lights where they can be easily seen from anywhere along the rail - not to mention the difficulty in determining which cue light you're actually supposed to respond to. A friend at the Vivian Beaumont tells a story about the automation operator who used to unscrew the spare cue light lamp and stick his finger in the socket so that he could take a nap and would be woken up when the SM put him in standby. Probably not the most important design goals of cue light systems, but try to do _that_ with an LED!


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## cpf

What, I swear this thread was empty when I posted my reply :S

I'm gonna blame Tapatalk and my 3G provider...


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## Chris15

One of the things the CBMods do is to merge similar threads to try and reduce the clutter.
I don't know if one of my colleagues has done that in this instance, but I would not rule it out...


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## tdrga

rochem said:


> I must have missed this quote earlier, but I couldn't agree more. My school uses the Leon Audio system that has just been posted, and while it's admittedly much easier to set up and strike on a regular basis, they're nowhere near as effective or versatile as traditional baskets. As Footer said, it's much more difficult to see them from far away, and most systems don't allow you the flexibility to have three different colors at various positions around the theatre. And, for me personally, it's much easier to take cues from an on/off state of a switch rather than waiting for a dim yellow LED to change to a dim green LED, then start flashing at me.
> 
> For example, most big shows these days will have three cue lights at the rail, and they do this by plugging a ~30' length of colored rope light each cue light circuit, then running the rope light behind the arbors along the length of the rail. So no matter where you're standing on the rail, the cue lights are always directly in front of you. Try finding an ideal place to put three LED cue lights where they can be easily seen from anywhere along the rail - not to mention the difficulty in determining which cue light you're actually supposed to respond to.



I have the Leon Audio system and initially had the same issues. I got them to custom burn new firmware so that the outstations operate in a "US" way- green light stays on until turned off. That way our SM's and crews don't have to relearn how they take cues. I also built a relay system that uses Leon Audio relay stations to activate line-voltage relays that switch on our three colors of ropelight on the flyrail. It has been working fine for almost 4 1/2 years.

Our crews have never had an issue seeing the LEDs on the Leon Audio outstations- even across the stage during a bright scene.

-Todd


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## gafftapegreenia

I'd never seen the rope light system on a fly rail until I moved down to Atlanta. Now I see it in just about every theatre here. Usually four colors, red, blue, clear and amber. A great idea that I can't believe I never thought of!


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## DuckJordan

I'll have to get pictures when we complete ours. Its rope light behind the T-track so, the lineman only has to look towards the rope he is already going to be pulling on to get cued. We also put squawk boxes above their heads for load in and out, so instead of a clunky headset while boxes are moving, its a box wired out of the way with drop down hand mics to talk back to the system. (we also have 1 on the loading bridge, and 2 up above our grid.)

We went with a Red, Blue, White, Green coloring scheme since the shows that come through use 3 of those colors for cues.


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## Edawg311

Has anyone used the LogiCue system from NuDelta Digital? If so, what did you think of it?

NuDelta Digital


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## Jon Shepherd

cpf said:


> If you're up to DIYing it, could easily do it with ethernet, Wi-Fi, generic RF, a low-speed 2-wire serial connection (over XLR) daisy-chained to all the cue lights (in descending order of price).
> 
> Orrr, for a cut-and-dried solution, use Easy to use Digital Theatre Cue Light this system, and the relay outstation model controlling low-voltage lamps powered from wall-wart supplies.



I am interested in using a wifi wired cue light as I have recently designed a wifi cue light to use between smartphones and 8 channel between tablet and phones. 
I posted up elsewhere on a forum and they suggested that it would be also good to control wifi enabled existing cue lights. No experience in how to find them so any help would be good.
Plus how to have them separated on channels? my app plus video is at www.stagecue.eu if you want to see what I have got to so far, It will have later updates as time progresses


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## BillConnerFASTC

The stagecue is kind of interesting - and probably very right priced - but I worry about it being there when you need it. 

I've become fond of the Leon Audio - which does have relay stations to control 120 volt loads like rope light or baskets - but also for simplicity and low cost. I wouldn't call it "fully digital" because it doesn't really easily live in a network world, but that keeps it actor and stage manager friendly as well. Topology free in terms of wiring - wye, diasy chain, whatever at will - is a bonus as well.


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## Jon Shepherd

EustaceM said:


> *Cue light system*
> 
> Does anyone know of a non-permanent cue light system?
> Warn cast & crew. Aknowledable button. Go button.
> 
> Hopefully one that additional stations can be added when need be



------------

I have developed this originally on Android Tablets but now on iPad as of today 27.8.14 if of interest

The iPad 8 channel controller + free remote cue light apps is officially launched today.
For those that have been waiting for the iPad version it has now arrived.

3 NEW FEATURES:
999 Cue Lists, exportable by csv to Dropbox or create on Excel and import from dropbox. Individual channels can be programmed on the iPad or if more convenient in Excel.

Cue List rolling numbers show on the FREE Remote for iPhone. So you know where you are in the show  See image here. 

Now cross platform capability already built in with the Android Phone App. (we are hard at work on the Android app to make it cross compatible and should be ready in a few days) You will be informed of the free update here. 

REMOTE APP LINK:
https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/stagecue-remote/id909599978?mt=8

8 CHANNEL IPAD:
https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/stagecue-8-channel-master/id909617868?mt=8

Or look at Stagecue.eu to pick up the links from there for apple and android.

thanks
Jon


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## BillConnerFASTC

Anyone have a Leon Audio cue light system installed that a client could come look at? They don't have any demo units in the US. Client is in Houston TX. Thanks.


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## tdrga

BillConnerASTC said:


> Anyone have a Leon Audio cue light system installed that a client could come look at? They don't have any demo units in the US. Client is in Houston TX. Thanks.



The Long Center in Austin has one. I'm not on staff there anymore, but I can pass along contact info. 

-Todd 

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## BillConnerFASTC

Wow - fantastic if you could. Muchas gracias. (Not intended to be racially insensitive!)


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## AlexDonkle

Just curious for those who use permanent cue light systems like Leon Audio, do you typically run temp cabling per show or have permanent cabling installed? For leon system it looks like audio tie-line cables could re-purposed for cue-light signals pretty easily, but is that the usual approach? (I've never worked on a show with a cue light system, always been interested in them)


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## BillConnerFASTC

No idea what "usual" is but in our work, we tend to install conduit, wire, and receptacle plates just for cue light system. Seems to make sense but there is some additional expense. We haven't found that all systems really could work on one network but the concept has appeal, I admit. Current project has three or four totally separate networks - all with their own switches and patch bays - for one theatre.


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## AlexDonkle

Interesting, any reason you decide not to share conduit with intercom? (I would think the intercom and cue light receptacles would show up side-by-side in a lot of areas)


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## Jon Shepherd

Here is a non permanent cue light system over wifi if any help. 
It can run phone to phone or 8 channel iPad to 8 phones, a mix of Apple and android is possible too. 

Very stable in use I hear! 

Www.stagecue.eu


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## BillConnerFASTC

Jon Shepherd said:


> Here is a non permanent cue light system over wifi if any help.
> It can run phone to phone or 8 channel iPad to 8 phones, a mix of Apple and android is possible too.
> 
> Very stable in use I hear!
> 
> Www.stagecue.eu



So in ten years, do you believe this one will have no more failures than, say, the Leon Audio system or a system of switches and lights? In a mission-critical situation, would you be as comfortable relying on wifi and tcp/ip as on hard wire and simple switches? I would not. And over ten years, which will cost more? Can't help but believe the wifi and network will ultimately have more components replaced and need more time - which is not always a concern but in a professional setting is and is a real cost. Old fashioned cue light systems would last 20-30 years. I don't believe any tablet/smart phone/network system will come close to being operational in 20-30 years, and when you really just want the simple functions of a cue light, does it matter you <can> do more? Are the benefits really worth the greater complexity?


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## AlexDonkle

Jon Shepherd said:


> Here is a non permanent cue light system over wifi if any help.
> It can run phone to phone or 8 channel iPad to 8 phones, a mix of Apple and android is possible too.
> 
> Very stable in use I hear!
> 
> Www.stagecue.eu



Good idea, until the show gets helps up while the flymen is watching this on his screen...


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## Jon Shepherd

AlexDonkle said:


> Good idea, until the show gets helps up while the flymen is watching this on his screen...View attachment 11449


No idea what you are saying? It works and loads very fast!


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## BillConnerFASTC

i think he meant "held up" not "helps up" and while it my be fine for a school or community theatre, I still have reservations about reliability over a long period in a professional or even semi-professional setting.


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## robartsd

I don't see why software on mobile devices would be preferred in any permament performance space for reasons Bill has previously stated, but I could see it as a very handy tool for staging a performance in a space that isn't usually a performace space.

The Android pricing of StageCue seems great for a volunteer group where individuals provide their own devices (why is iOS version 2.5x the price?).


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## themuzicman

This is what has become the standard on most every off-Broadway show, and even some of the smaller Broadway gigs I have seen recently as far as cue lights go -- the American DJ PC-100A. http://www.adj.com/pc-100a 

It's stupid cheap, and works just fine.


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## AlexDonkle

Jon Shepherd said:


> No idea what you are saying? It works and loads very fast!


I'm sure it does when WiFi is up, and no other apps are running. We've all had WiFi failures at random times for seemingly no reason though and that's what I'd be worried about. One of the most famous examples is the 2010 Apple keynote by Steve Jobs when his phone wouldn't connect to WiFi, while he was on stage. 


themuzicman said:


> This is what has become the standard on most every off-Broadway show, and even some of the smaller Broadway gigs I have seen recently as far as cue lights go -- the American DJ PC-100A. http://www.adj.com/pc-100a
> 
> It's stupid cheap, and works just fine.


I would imagine that type of system only flies if it's taken down after every show though as Broadway does, and not a permanent system for a venue. There's a local theatre that had to remove a very similar system to that, since it's 120V run over temporary power cables.


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## Skervald

Resurrecting an ancient thread here. (I apologize for the dust on your screen.) I'm looking for an extremely simple cue light system. The GAM Go-Lite mentioned earlier in this thread would have been perfect for my needs but alas, it's been discontinued. I haven't been able to find anything like it out there. Does anyone know of anything similar? I suppose I can always cobble something together but off the shelf would save me some time.


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## themuzicman

Skervald said:


> Resurrecting an ancient thread here. (I apologize for the dust on your screen.) I'm looking for an extremely simple cue light system. The GAM Go-Lite mentioned earlier in this thread would have been perfect for my needs but alas, it's been discontinued. I haven't been able to find anything like it out there. Does anyone know of anything similar? I suppose I can always cobble something together but off the shelf would save me some time.



American DJ PC-100A, combine that with Edison cable you probably already have around and wire up some lightbulbs.

edit: realized I posted this before. It's still true. It's still cheap.


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## Skervald

Good option and I may end up going that route if I can't find anything else. What I like about the Go-Lite system is that it was small and self contained. I could run one thin (telephone) cable and control 4 tiny lights with it. If I want the same functionality with the ADJ, I'd have to run 4 Edison cables and I'd end up with much larger/brighter bulbs than I really want/need.


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## jeffn11

Skervald said:


> Good option and I may end up going that route if I can't find anything else. What I like about the Go-Lite system is that it was small and self contained. I could run one thin (telephone) cable and control 4 tiny lights with it. If I want the same functionality with the ADJ, I'd have to run 4 Edison cables and I'd end up with much larger/brighter bulbs than I really want/need.



Check out the LogiCue from NuDeltaDigital - http://nudeltadigital.com/ 

It's a super simple cue light system that uses standard xlr cable.


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## dumaisaudio

I can't seem to find any other thread on this topic, so I'll resurrect this one. I'm trying to find a cue light system to install in our space. Ideally, it would be something that could be run over Cat5 cable, so that it's easy to run to the tech table, but also have run from the call position. I'm not above making my own setup if needed, though some sort of template or suggestion would be good.

I do like the LogiCue system that is mentioned above, though I'd rather not spend that much money on it, plus it's XLR runs.


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## Malabaristo

dumaisaudio said:


> I can't seem to find any other thread on this topic, so I'll resurrect this one. I'm trying to find a cue light system to install in our space. Ideally, it would be something that could be run over Cat5 cable, so that it's easy to run to the tech table, but also have run from the call position. I'm not above making my own setup if needed, though some sort of template or suggestion would be good.
> 
> I do like the LogiCue system that is mentioned above, though I'd rather not spend that much money on it, plus it's XLR runs.



ETC has a network-based cue light system now: http://www.etcconnect.com/CueSystem/

You can connect the controllers anywhere on your lighting network, and the outsations are all POE powered with some ability to daisy-chain. It's got a lot of cool features... but might not fall in the "inexpensive" category.

Aside from that, most of the commercial products I know of have been mentioned in this thread already. The viability of DIY options depends on how complex you want things to be, and how good you are with electronics. I've been known to borrow a channel in an audio snake for a single cuelight that was basically just a switch and a DC power supply at one end and a box with some LEDs in it at the other end. It was cheap, stupid simple, and met my needs at the time, but wouldn't scale well to larger quantities.


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## Red_Carpet

rochem said:


> <snip>... *And, for me personally, it's much easier to take cues from an on/off state from a switch*... </snip>


OH I SO AGREE, I don't necessarily agree with staying with ideas from the "old days" but this ON/OFF system works so well.
I add a small caveat. When I built a system like this I added a small "*THE SYSTEM IS WORKING*" led on the cue-station box to give comfort to cast or crew who are dancing on their toes thinking "He has forgotten about me - I dont think this cue system is working" LOL 
Kind regards.


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