# Lighting Designer/Programmer Freelance Fees - Need advice from the veterans!



## JoshH (Aug 21, 2010)

Hi All! New to the forums but have been reading A LOT over the past few hours! Excellent forum.

I'm currently 19 years old and own 2 HOG iPC's along with a netbook running HogPC. At 17 I started working for a local production company (full service lighting, video and sound) in their warehouse, just keeping track of inventory and repairing colorblasts and Mac2K's mainly. After 6 months I left that company and started working as a LD/LP for a small lighting company which I enjoyed a lot better (hated being in the warehouse always!). I then went out and purchased an iPC and then a few months later purchased a 2nd console so I can rent as a back-up. I also have HOG PC for small shows. 

Anyways, long story short, I would really really like to talk the business side of things with some industry veterans. 

When I first started with this small lighting company, I told them I was fine with $ 25.00 per hour for concerts. Great, I started doing shows and on average would work an entire day and go home with $250-$275. Basically as their lighting tech, I would have to tell the other techs where to place movers and what to address everything at, then I would go and usually just focus lekos, etc. and leave. I guess you call this a "lighting director".

Then I purchased my iPC's and started renting them the 1st iPC for $ 300.00 and the 2nd back-up for $ 150.00. Total was $450 for the 2 consoles plus I would usually take my laptop and HOG iPC so they could use as well (++ I have a UPS, and extra wing). I thought $450 for everything was extremely reasonable considering I've spent about $25k building my system! I guess I was wrong...

Long story short, I arrived at a show a few weeks back and they had me carrying truss out of a semi and then asked me to assist with sound side of production (I do have some knowledge in this area from my previous experience at the other production company). I ended up having to run a snake from the stage to FOH and do power drops for stage power. I went from 4 months of a lighting tech/director for them to freelance labor. Basically that entire show was just conventional's and they felt I wasn't needed to assist in the lighting area. When I received my check I noticed I got paid $12.00/hr! I called up and they explained that since I wasn't doing anything lighting & technical related the pay was $12/hr. I worked a 16 hr day on this show and feel like I've been ripped off now, especially since my back is almost out at 19! haha

For the cherry on top...they just told me that they can get 2 iPC consoles for $350 now. Will no longer be working for this company anymore and now I'm on the hunt for my next gig but need a lot of advice from the pros!

Here come the questions!

1. What should I be charging for my equipment? 2 HES iPC's, UPS, Keyboard/Mouse, etc. Is there some sort of percentage rule?
2. Was my hourly rate low/high for the lighting tech work I was doing. ($25.00/hr).
3. Do freelance lighting techs/directors/designers usually carry there own form of a contract? Is there an industry standard copy that's going around, that someone can recommend? What are the basics it covers normally?

Any type of advice would be greatly appreciated!! (sorry for my English too)


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## metti (Aug 21, 2010)

See answers in quote.


JoshH said:


> 1. What should I be charging for my equipment? 2 HES iPC's, UPS, Keyboard/Mouse, etc. Is there some sort of percentage rule?
> 
> *That doesn't seem particularly expensive to me. I think that the rental house near me that has Hog iPCs rents them at $400 per week/day (they have the same week and day rate). That said, if they can get it cheaper from someone else, you will either need to match your new competition's pricing or try to offer some additional value for the extra $100. *
> 
> ...


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## Footer (Aug 21, 2010)

If you somehow convinced someone to pay your 25 an hour thats great, but not even close to the norm. There are full card carrying local one IA hands that aren't making that at some venues. 12 an hour for general labor is pretty standard. 14-20 dollars is a good wage in this world. You aren't ETCP certified, you don't have a college degree, and you don't have that many years of experience. Your lucky you were getting 12. 

You are also sitting on a console that has been discontinued and is very long in the tooth. iPC's are dropping in value every day. The iPC was made to fill a need that is no longer there. If you budgeted yourself to get 450 bucks per rental, you are going to be in for a long road ahead.

If you are 19 and already above humping cable, you need to get out of this industry now. There are people on this very forum who have been in this industry for 30+ years, are ETCP certified, carry IA cards, and still are there packing the truck until the last case is in the truck. If you just want to sit back and wait for everything to get done so you can go press some buttons one of two things need to happen. You either need to have a USA 829 designer stamp on your paperwork or you need to be the LD for one of the larger national tours. You will get 0 respect from the crew if all you do is come in, sit down, and push buttons. No work is ever beneath you. If you want to get paid, you should do all the work that is asked of you. There are 1,000s of other people that can program a chase or throw a light into a figure 8. 

The gig that you got paid 12 dollars an hour you should have negotiated a bit better. Also, just because you are renting gear to them does not mean that you are any better then any other member of the crew. You were hired to work an they had you work. 

USA 829 has a great contract for the theatre world. Many people copy it and they encourage that. The music world is a bit different. However, contracts still exist with many of the same protections for the music industry. Also, in the music world for designers you usually get paid a day rate and not hourly. 

As far as rental rates go, you really just have to play it by ear. If you have brand new gear that is in demand, you can sometimes get 15-20% of the price you paid for it for a weeks rental. For older gear, your lucky to get 5% for a weeks rental. For something like consoles that get outdated quickly, your percentage can drop quickly every year the gear ages.


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## JoshH (Aug 22, 2010)

Both Kyle & Metti - Great advice, thanks! I really appreciate it!

Kyle, leaving a college degree out of the discussion for a reason I rather not get into on the forum but I'd really like to ask you more about the ETCP certification. Can you give me some more information on it? 

I don't think I'm any better than other technicians because I own gear. Not sure if I may have posted something that made it seem like that?...I actually really look up to a lot of the other crew members as I'm usually younger and less experienced.

Also confused on how you say I'm up for "a long road ahead" if I was thinking of getting $450 for 2 consoles yet you then say about 5%. I looked at usedlighting.com and found them selling iPC's for $8k each (not counting my UPS and wing), thats $16k total...5% is $800. What would you price the 2 consoles at if you where in my position?


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## gafftaper (Aug 22, 2010)

Everything you need to know about ETCP certification is here. However you probably are a few years away from qualifying. It's not like a driver's license that says you are now qualified to start doing. It's a stamp of mastery that takes about 3000 hours of paid professional work to qualify for, depending on how much education you've had.


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## Footer (Aug 22, 2010)

JoshH said:


> Also confused on how you say I'm up for "a long road ahead" if I was thinking of getting $450 for 2 consoles yet you then say about 5%. I looked at usedlighting.com and found them selling iPC's for $8k each (not counting my UPS and wing), thats $16k total...5% is $800. What would you price the 2 consoles at if you where in my position?



Yes, they are selling for that right now but that does not mean they are actually worth that if that makes sense. Most company's that have iPCs have had them for 5 years and have long sense re-couped the investment. They can afford to undercut you because renting out that console costs them nothing besides their overhead. You on the other had have to get a certain amount or your sunk. It is going to be nearly impossible for you to compete with a larger rental house.

As far as ETCP goes, ETCP - ControlBooth


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## erosing (Aug 22, 2010)

JoshH said:


> I looked at usedlighting.com and found them selling iPC's for $8k each (not counting my UPS and wing), thats $16k total...5% is $800. What would you price the 2 consoles at if you where in my position?



What something will sell for and what something will rent for are two different things.

Also, in my opinion you should consider your UPS and wing as a perk, not a way to make extra money per rental, frankly the people who would even use a UPS already have one or two and won't extra pay for yours. Same with the wing (programming or playback) if you try to charge extra for it they will just get a full lighting desk (for the same or less). 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## len (Aug 22, 2010)

The thing that gets me is that they were paying $25 an hour, then don't tell the OP that he's getting $12 for a show and let him work through the whole day. That's bad faith. Be glad you're not there anymore.
As for your rate, these days it's better to be working than not. So you may have to take what's there. I can't comment on your rental rates, but probably high for a very old desk.


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## Chris15 (Aug 22, 2010)

Have we indeed confirmed that the OP is in the US and we're talking USD?

If it were AUD, then I could promptly say that the minimum wage is $15, but that under the relevant award, more would be due.

So until we can resolve this location of "worldwide", we're left speculating...


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## bishopthomas (Aug 22, 2010)

I feel like we're missing some information between when you were working for them for $25/hr, renting consoles, and everyone was happy and when all of a sudden they don't need your gear and cut your pay in half. Something happened for them to change their mind. Maybe it was your fault, maybe it's just bad business on their part, but there was a reason that that decision was made. If you had a good relationship with them before then maybe you should ask them what happened before you just say "screw you."

By the way, I have never heard of a $12/hr rate, but then I'm used to NY/NJ pay scale. I do day rates as opposed to hourly (even at $20/hr doing a 4 hour load in just isn't worth my time) because I like to know how much I'm making at the end of the day. It sounds like you're acting as crew chief (not necessarily lighting director), which is worth $400-600 a day in my area. I'll do a walk in gig for $150, but if I'm humping cable, hanging fixtures, wiring a stage (audio), etc. then I'm looking at at least $200 for a simple local gig. If I'm A1 audio engineer $250-300. There's a company I work for in NYC that pays $400 plus expenses for an A2, but that's mostly corporate work in NYC. While you may not be in the most expensive part of the country, I don't think $12/hr is adequate pay for the job you were doing.


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## JoshH (Aug 22, 2010)

Hi Chris,

Sorry for having the "worldwide" profile status! I've actually spent a few years in Germany and Argentina and was in San Francisco, California at the time when I was working for this company (USD). I'll be back in the US in November so thats why I posted this thread, just to make sure that my rates where fair so when I start looking for work, I don't ask to high and as well don't ask too low.


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## JoshH (Aug 22, 2010)

bishopthomas,

Definitely agree with you. T

After talking to a lot of the crew, it seemed like everyone got some kind of a cut on that show and it seems that is has gone all down hill with this small lighting company. I noticed their phone has been disconnected as well so I can only guess whats going on...

I also agree that $12 was a bit strange as I know that the norm is about a $250-$300 for 10-14 hours ("Day Rate") from what I can understand. Thats why I was thinking it was weird when Kyle (above poster) said I should have been lucky to get that. Not sure if I agree with him on that (I think fast food restaurants pay just $2/$3 below that).....but it could vary widely from region/state.


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## JoshH (Aug 22, 2010)

Hi Len,

I've read a lot of your posts on this forum and a few other forums as well 

I agree, with the way the U.S economy has been, it would obviously be a good idea to just go cheaper than to have no work at all. Any suggestions on my console situation, as to if I purchased 2 Road Hogs and sell my iPC's, would that be a small upgrade only? I could sell the 2 consoles and hogPC software and purchase a GrandMA Full. 

Thanks!


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## Footer (Aug 22, 2010)

Is their a reason why you want to own consoles? If that is the only thing you have to rent your already at a disadvantage. Most people want a one stop shop when it comes to renting gear. It makes load in, strike, troubleshooting, and invoicing much easier. Many rental shops will throw in the console with a large enough rental. Hanging into the wings would be a good thing for your personal use. The rental industry is a hard one to be in and an even harder one to start out in. 

If people are renting the gear now, hang into it, if they aren't then might be time to get out or trade in




sent from my HTC Incredible


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## metti (Aug 22, 2010)

I was actually about the post pretty much the same thing that Footer did. At this point, it really doesn't make any sense for you to own/rent consoles. For reasons I won't bother going into, I do own my own light board but I don't rent it out and I wouldn't expect anyone to be interested in renting a light board from me since I can't also provide most of the other gear they would need. While it can be fun to own gear, it doesn't seem like ownership is going to be a viable business model for you at this point. I would unload the gear and have my retirement account go up by $20k or so. Actually, I would probably go on a ski vacation but that is besides the point.


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## bishopthomas (Aug 22, 2010)

I agree that you should not be looking at making profit from rentals. Keep one for your own personal use if you want, but only because it's what you're comfortable programming on. Besides the points that have already been mentioned, there's the liability aspect of gear rentals. If something were to happen on a gig your console's on and there's a paper trail back to you, you are now named in the lawsuit. So you'll want proper liability insurance, an LLC at the very least, and be prepared to start paying self employment taxes every year. Still sound worth it to try to rent a console to someone every once and a while? Also, good luck finding clients. As far as that paper trail goes... Everyone will expect a genuine invoice, something that they can write off at the end of the year as an expense, and they'll probably want to pay by check, so your name is going to be everywhere just waiting for litigation and an audit.

You're 19. Start applying for jobs. If you haven't decided on a location yet then you are at a huge advantage to most. It sounds like you have decent work experience and living in multiple countries (and speaking the languages?) always looks good on a resume. I don't know anyone who would recommend getting into this field, and especially starting a business in this industry and in this economy. If you're set on the first (as I was when I was your age) then at least take my advice on the second and forget about the console rentals and everything that goes along with that.


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## meatpopsicle (Aug 23, 2010)

metti said:


> I was actually about the post pretty much the same thing that Footer did. At this point, it really doesn't make any sense for you to own/rent consoles. For reasons I won't bother going into, I do own my own light board but I don't rent it out and I wouldn't expect anyone to be interested in renting a light board from me since I can't also provide most of the other gear they would need. While it can be fun to own gear, it doesn't seem like ownership is going to be a viable business model for you at this point. I would unload the gear and have my retirement account go up by $20k or so. Actually, I would probably go on a ski vacation but that is besides the point.


 
I couldn't disagree more. While owning a couple of IPC's at 19 is a bit unusual its not a bad way of moving too the programmer gig. Granted I'm in the film business in NY and this business model is followed a lot. In terms of live gigs owning the tools you want to work with ensures that you'll have the right thing at the right time. How many low budget tours go out with out gear and you have to use what evers in the venue. Bringing your own board, and hopefully getting a rental, could get you the gig you are looking for to step you up to the next level. "dude, this guy owns his own desk and the other guy doesn't...you make the call". And owning your own backup is really the smart way to go. It'll prevent the 9:00pm call to the local shop's emergency number trying to bail your ass out of the **** when your IPC monitor card , or the CPU, craps the bed.

If you want to program, program. Know your desk like the back of your hand. Be willing to negotiate your rates to get the gigs that you want. Make your deals up front. If you have to coil cable then smile while you do it. That will be remembered.

and check out youtube "roadie vs guitar tech"


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## bishopthomas (Aug 23, 2010)

I agree that he should keep his console for personal use. But we're talking about dry hires from other production companies, not a "hire me and I'll bring my console" type situation. Besides, if he is going out of a low budget tour they're probably not going to be paying his $400/day rental rate (or anything for that matter) plus weekly salary. Keep the console because you want to program on it, but don't expect to make money off of the console.


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## metti (Aug 23, 2010)

I would also like to point out that if he is going to own his own console(s) it might make more sense to dump the iPCs and switch to something a little more contemporary (and reliable IMHO) like a Road Hog Full Boar. He could keep the HogPC setup as his backup and probably end up better equipped and with a little bit of money coming out of the whole deal.


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## xander (Aug 23, 2010)

Plenty has been said on the rental thing and I wont add anything, but as for the wage issue, I am extremely surprised there hasn't been more people telling him that IT ALL DEPENDS ON LOCATION. I've worked at an IA house in the middle of nowhere where the apprentice wage is $12/hr and journeyman wage is $15/hr for crew and like an $8/hr bump for crew head. When I was in school working freelance for local theater companies I generally got $10/hr. Most of my regional master electrician work was salary so my hourly was something like $3.  I live in New York City now and I would never bother doing the lowliest crew work for anything less than $20/hr. Designers generally get a fee or day rate. Programmers can be all over the place; sometimes it's hourly, sometimes it's by day. IT ALL DEPENDS. 

All you can do to find out what you are suppose to be paid is figure out what the other guys doing your job are getting paid, and if you can convince the employer you are better than they are in some way, then maybe you will get a little bit more.

-Tim


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## len (Aug 24, 2010)

JoshH said:


> Hi Len,
> 
> I've read a lot of your posts on this forum and a few other forums as well
> 
> ...


 I can't really give you a range to rent your stuff for. Only to ask what the going rate is in your area. And I don't really have any idea since I don't rent moving light boards from or to anyone. I run a design/decor business which is heavily vested in weddings and other social events. Most of the events I do I can get by with a 12 channel dimmer controller. If I do use moving lights, I bring my Martin LightJockey (similar to a Hog PC). 
Same can be said of what you should update to, if anything. I'm away from that segment of the industry and I don't really know what is being requested beyond what I read in the trade magazines.


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