# Sizes of drops and scrims?



## JLNorthGA (Dec 16, 2011)

Our proscenium opening is 16' H x 30' W. It is easy to figure out what size a main drape should be (larger than the proscenium opening, so 17' x 34' or so).

Given that the approximate height of the gallery above the stage is 35' H, what would be a reasonable height and width for drops and scrims? The battens are 40' long. The first batten is about 1' behind the main drape. The second batten is about 3' behind the main drape. The rest of the battens start at least 8' back.

The front row seat level is about 3' below the stage level.

Fabric does cost - and I would rather not have to paint more than was required.


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## Footer (Dec 16, 2011)

It really depends what you trim your electrics and borders to. Some places trim their borders to their proscenium height, some go a bit high, some go a bit low. 

Once again though, I don't think you have the right definition of drop and scrim.


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## JLNorthGA (Dec 16, 2011)

Footer said:


> It really depends what you trim your electrics and borders to. Some places trim their borders to their proscenium height, some go a bit high, some go a bit low.
> 
> Once again though, I don't think you have the right definition of drop and scrim.


Okay - how about a "backdrop". What I mean by a drop is a flat piece of canvas or muslin on which you paint a scene.

As for a scrim - I mean something that you can see through if you have a shining behind it.

We don't have any borders. We have a main drape and we will have a black velour backdrop and side tabs.


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## Footer (Dec 16, 2011)

JLNorthGA said:


> Okay - how about a "backdrop". What I mean by a drop is a flat piece of canvas or muslin on which you paint a scene.
> 
> As for a scrim - I mean something that you can see through if you have a shining behind it.
> 
> We don't have any borders. We have a main drape and we will have a black velour backdrop and side tabs.



With no borders, the answer is... as high as you can see. Have someone sit in the 2nd or 3rd row of the house, see how high they can see on the back wall, and that is your height. In my venue, ideal drop height is 22'. However, we regularly get show drops in that are 18' or 20' so we have to trim in our upstage borders to mask the pipe.


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## josh88 (Dec 16, 2011)

JLNorthGA said:


> Okay - how about a "backdrop". What I mean by a drop is a flat piece of canvas or muslin on which you paint a scene.
> 
> As for a scrim - I mean something that you can see through if you have a shining behind it.
> 
> ...


 
not to nitpick but now you're mixing your own definitions. You said a backdrop of canvas that you have a scene on, and then you said a black velour backdrop.

So we've got scrim correct at least and I assume you are looking for sizing of a drop with a scene painted on it that takes up the whole back of the stage? In the case of a drop it depends on how far in your legs/teasers come in. If your opening is 30 feet wide but they come in a foot on each side of the stage you just need to get it far enough off stage that people don't see the edges. so measure accordingly. Do you have a Cyc? that may serve useful as a visual and physical reference.

Edit: Footer beat me.


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## MPowers (Dec 16, 2011)

JLNorthGA said:


> Our proscenium opening is 16' H x 30' W. .........what would be a reasonable height and width for drops and scrims? The battens are 40' long. ................ front row seat level is about 3' below the stage level...........



Width of the drop depends on location and width of the nearest set of legs or masking, and the location of the front row seats on each side. If you battens are 40' long, then 40' is probably a good guess. 

We need some additional info to give an answer on height. How far from the plaster line is the front row of seats and how far from the plaster line is the batten on which you wish to hang the drop? If you don't have any borders or teasers you will need to be very tall at the back.

To figure it out for yourself, draw a section view [vertical section] of your stage. Put an x where the eyes of the front row patron will sit. draw a straight line from the x to the under side of the proscenium arch. Continue that straight line until it intersects a vertical line located where you want the backdrop to be. Now, measure the vertical line from the floor to where you sight line intercepts it.

On a rough layout, if your front row is 15' from the plaster line and you don't have any borders, a back drop at 8' from PL would have to be 24' tall, a back drop at 16'p from PL would have to be 32' tall. You need some borders.


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## derekleffew (Dec 16, 2011)

JLNorthGA said:


> Our proscenium opening is 16' H x 30' W. It is easy to figure out what size a main drape should be (larger than the proscenium opening, so 17' x 34' or so). ...


Not so fast. If the main drape is a bi-parting traveler, it needs stacking space, which will vary depending on whether the drape is built with 100%, 75%, or 50% fullness and the weight of the fabric. I bet MPowers can supply the appropriate formulas, but I also suspect 2' for 15' is not enough offstage track.


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## MPowers (Dec 17, 2011)

derekleffew said:


> ..... If the main drape is a bi-parting traveler, it needs stacking space, which will vary depending on whether the drape is built with 100%, 75%, or 50% fullness and the weight of the fabric......



Stacking space also depends on the type of track and if it has back fold hardware. Very light weight track without rear-fold/back-pack/back fold (all different names for the same thing) is roughly 1 1/4" per carrier + 4". Heavy fabric and fullness more than 50% can increase this. Very heavy duty tracks such as ADC Patriarc or H&H 500 series can take up to 3" per carrier + 5". A properly sized act curtain should have a 2' over lap at the center and extend far enough off stage to prevent the front side seats from looking into the wings between the curtain and the proscenium. It "usually" takes roughly 3' of drape beyond the opening to mask, depending on the space between the Plaster Line and the curtain. So.....30' opening = 15' to cover the opening to center, 1' to create the over lap, and 3 feet off stage, you wand two 19' panels for the front curtain. On a medium weight curtain with carriers on 12" cc, and medium sized track that would mean about 2 1/4" per carrier + 3". Stacking space would be about 46" of stacking space on each side. You only asked for 36" of curtain beyond the opening. What do you do???? If you want the curtain to completely disappear off stage, you need a track that is about 7' longer than the opening on each side. This allows the 4' of stacked curtain to be 3' beyond the proscenium and completely out of sight. You then attach a drift chain to the last carrier on the curtain and it prevents the trailing edge of the drape from going further on stage than desired as the curtain is closed.


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## JLNorthGA (Dec 17, 2011)

derekleffew said:


> Not so fast. If the main drape is a bi-parting traveler, it needs stacking space, which will vary depending on whether the drape is built with 100%, 75%, or 50% fullness and the weight of the fabric. I bet MPowers can supply the appropriate formulas, but I also suspect 2' for 15' is not enough offstage track.


 
Our main drape is just up and down. We have no travelers, teasers or borders.

We have seven battens (eight counting the main drape), two electrics and a winched batten for our painting slot that can double as something to hold a backdrop against the rear wall of our stage.


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## MPowers (Dec 18, 2011)

If your act curtain is a guillotine curtain only and never a traveler, then your original assessment is correct. A foot or two taller than the Proscenium and a couple of feet wider on each end.


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## kicknargel (Dec 18, 2011)

As has been mentioned, the best way to figure this all out is to analyze sightlines via a plan drawing for width and section drawing for height. For your purposes here, you can generate these very easily by taking measurements and drawing in scale with a scale rule and square. One more thing, though. I think I understand that you have an actual fly system. If you want to be able to fly drops/scrims in and out, they should be roughly half the distance from the floor to the batten at it's highest position. With a batten right behind your proscenium, this should work out that it fills the opening when flown in and disappears when flown out. With no borders, you're going to have masking issues if you try to do the same with something further upstage.


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## kicknargel (Dec 18, 2011)

By the way, between this and your other thread, it seems you have a pretty quirky setup. Is there any reason you don't have a more traditional masking scenario, with borders and legs? And, if I'm right that your battens fly, are the up/down stage pipes, cables, whatever for your tab curtains not going to interfere? If you could post some photos it might help us give good advice.


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## JLNorthGA (Dec 19, 2011)

kicknargel said:


> By the way, between this and your other thread, it seems you have a pretty quirky setup. Is there any reason you don't have a more traditional masking scenario, with borders and legs? And, if I'm right that your battens fly, are the up/down stage pipes, cables, whatever for your tab curtains not going to interfere? If you could post some photos it might help us give good advice.



The playhouse was built in the 1980s by an eccentric old woman. Let's say she didn't have the best theatre architect (or builder). The outer walls are concrete "tilt up slabs" and the roof is also a concrete slab roof. 

The fly loft above the stage extends upwards from the stage about 35' and it's roof is higher than the rest of the building. It is about 25' or so from the rear wall to the back of the proscenium. There are three steel beams which extend from the front to the back on the underside of the roof (or ceiling if you prefer). These steel beams support the pulleys for the battens and the electricals. The cabling for the battens and electrical goes from these pulleys to stage left. The tracks for the arbors are on the stage left outer wall. One steel beam is centered on stage and the other two are on either side maybe 16' from the center.

I'm going to put the tracks for the tab curtains outside of the battens travel. Not a problem for stage right. I will have some difficulty on stage left due to the cabling for the electrics.

To totally redo the rigging for the theatre would probably be a LOT of money. It is a small house (250 seats) in a small community. We're thankful that we have a theatre at all. It beats the heck out of having to use a gymnasium.


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## kicknargel (Dec 19, 2011)

Actually, everything you've described so there is a pretty standard arrangement, near as I can tell. No need to redo the rigging at all. In my opinion, with your setup you could create a nice, traditional masking scenario that will be flexible and serve you well into the future, ala Footer's picture above. The nice thing about your setup is that you can easily add dead hung battens anywhere you need them, with I-beam clamps attaching wire rope, chain, or even (high quality) rope. With this method at any point in the future you could easily add border curtains to mask electrics, flown-out drops, etc. The work should of course be done or supervised by a qualified rigger.

As for you side masking situation--of course you best know the intricacies of your space. But there may be an easier/safer/more flexible way to do it. I'd consider dead hanging battens on which you could hang traditional legs or even "Rotodrapers," which are pretty popular in small spaces. Masking curtains that run up/down stage present some problems; for one, if there's an opening to get people or scenery through, you can see through it. And you can't adjust how far on/off stage they are based on the need of the scenery, etc.

My two cents.


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## spribil (Dec 19, 2011)

I would not recommend "rotodrapers" in a fly house. These are always getting in the way of moving sets.


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## kicknargel (Dec 19, 2011)

That's a great point. The benefit is that you can angle them to achieve better masking, but if near a fly line they definitely create a snag magnet.


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