# Stage Surface Questions



## JHAYTER (Jul 19, 2018)

Hi All,

Looking for your help to gather some information quickly. If you could kindly help me by briefly answering the questions below regarding your venue's stage surface, I will be forever grateful!...(More information about why I am looking for this below the questions)

- Venue name and location?
- Stage size?
- Type of permanent stage surface (Masonite? Permanent linoleum / marley? Hardwood? Other?):
- Style of venue (roadhouse? producing?) 
- How many shows a year in your venue?
- How often is it replaced? Painted?
- Any reoccurring issues? 

The reason I am trying to gather this info is, we resurfaced our stage top a year ago with masonite and have had nothing but issues with tape ripping the tempered side off the floor down to the fibers and now have some issues with bubbling after a minor leak in the roof got a section wet. As many of you know, even top grade masonite is not what it used to be due to changes in the manufacturing processes, which we found out much too late. We have decided to replace the top again, and and we are considering permanent linoleum like Roscoleum by Rosco, which seems to also have some downsides. There doesn't seem to be a perfect solution, but we're hoping to find somthing that will last upwards of 5-10 years with proper maintenance. Thanks again!


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## JohnD (Jul 19, 2018)

I don't know if you have read these threads, but this issue has been discussed quite a bit.
https://www.controlbooth.com/threads/peeling-floor.43331/
In which Post #5 refers to this earlier thread:
https://www.controlbooth.com/threads/stage-floor-problems.42336/
It all boils down to you can still get the good hardboard but it is difficult. In the second thread listed, pay special attention to post #25 by @teqniqal .


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## Van (Jul 19, 2018)

What John said above. Also, replacing a floor cover once a year would be pretty standard to me, especially if you were moderately busy. No Masonite will hold up well in a leaky roof situation but you are correct there is a LOT of trashy Maso out there now.


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## JHAYTER (Jul 19, 2018)

JohnD said:


> I don't know if you have read these threads, but this issue has been discussed quite a bit.
> https://www.controlbooth.com/threads/peeling-floor.43331/
> In which Post #5 refers to this earlier thread:
> https://www.controlbooth.com/threads/stage-floor-problems.42336/
> It all boils down to you can still get the good hardboard but it is difficult. In the second thread listed, pay special attention to post #25 by @teqniqal .



Thanks John & Van. Yes, I've read into this quite a bit...I think at this point we've decided to stay away from hardboard altogether this time...Really just looking to easily compile some data to see what most venues have installed to help us make a choice...Been making some calls and skimming house tech specs as well in other venues...there is a surprising amount of products used out there!


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## JohnD (Jul 19, 2018)

@JHAYTER Please keep us posted on this, many venues are facing this issue. I personally wish battleship linoleum could make a comeback.


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## dbaxter (Jul 19, 2018)

I guess I should consider ourselves lucky. I put down masonite over 8 years ago and we're still on it. The perhaps unique situation we have is that the stage floor is at ground level and as such needs to be part of the set design of every show. At 6 or so shows a year, that's about 50 coats of paint. And, yes, it is about 1/8" thick in spots. There has been some puckering at the seams, but a little time with the belt sander takes those down.
Where we did have issues was during _ Hands on a Hard Body _ where the dollies that the truck was on would break through the floor. We had real potholes on stage! <grin>


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## BillConnerFASTC (Jul 19, 2018)

I consult on 4-6 theatres a year and they all have a stage floor and almost all are plyron. Few but not zero issues. 

Personally I would not like a sheet floor covering like linoleum because of fastening through it, but you may be able to limit or prohibit fastening.

Here is a cut and paste from a report (first draft) I'm in midst of writing today (and yesterday and through the weekend) that more or less addresses same issues.

*Stage floor*

Stage floors remain one of the more troublesome and common problem areas, and the Ball Theatre stage seems typical.

One option is to clear the stage and strip all coverings; repair the original strip wood flooring by filling and perhaps selective replacement; and sand. This should be coated. In your climate, where it can become very humid, either do this in the most humid month having allowed the hardboard to acclimate, or moisten the hardboard by misting with water over several days. Paint all sides - both faces and edges - before installing. Then lay Class 1 Tempered Hardboard, gapping about 1/16", and fastening around the perimeter with nails or screws. Both have pros and cons. Finally topcoat with PPG Breakthrough in Wrought Iron Satin. The weak point of this approach is finding a source for true Class 1 Tempered Hardboard is increasingly difficult, and lesser quality hardboard can pull apart when removing tape. 

Less labor but more costly material and having to contend with more thickness at doors and transitions, use 1/2"or 3/4" plyron, a plywood product with outer veneers of tempered hardboard. Spacing - gaps - not critical. Fasten with FHWS - I prefer square drive for easier removal of paint to remove screw - 16" on center for ½" ( 28 per 4 x 8) and 24" on center for 3/4" (15 per 4 x 8).

There are other materials than hardboard and paint such as Polyonyx, Stagelam, and Stageboard, but generally very expensive.


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## Allana (Jul 25, 2018)

Northrop, University of Minnesota campus
60'W x 40' D + wings, 2 pits, and upstage storage
Roadhouse with emphasis in touring dance
Newly Renovated in 2014. Masonite floor needed replacing within 6-9 months. Problems: tape pulled up paint/top sheets of maso, tesselations from under floor, warping/peeling in response to heavy roadcases (2 ton motors), ugly from so much brown flooring exposed.
4 years later (as we speak) floor is being replaced with Stagelam (http://www.stagelam.com/) which is 4x8 sheets of 1/4" hard plastic, black all the way through (no painting required).
We (briefly) tested samples for deflexion under heavy pressure (VERY minimal) and threw stage weights at it to see how easy it was to damage. It was possible but difficult to dent/scratch. The finish is dull black so not black-black but also doesn't reflect as much of the light.

It's definitely pricey but probably not as pricey as legit hardwood flooring.
Again, the floor install isn't even done yet, let alone getting to really put it to the test, but so far, I have high hopes.


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## JHAYTER (Jul 26, 2018)

Allana said:


> Northrop, University of Minnesota campus
> 60'W x 40' D + wings, 2 pits, and upstage storage
> Roadhouse with emphasis in touring dance
> Newly Renovated in 2014. Masonite floor needed replacing within 6-9 months. Problems: tape pulled up paint/top sheets of maso, tesselations from under floor, warping/peeling in response to heavy roadcases (2 ton motors), ugly from so much brown flooring exposed.
> ...



Thanks for all this information, Allana! Sounds like you were / are in the same situation as us, and I think Stagelam is going to be the answer. Please let me know of any issues or details that come up during the install, I would be very interested to know how it goes. I talked to another theatre in Ontario that had some issues with stagelam being slippery and they recieved batches that were different shades of black so they had to paint it anyway. Curious if anyone else has experienced this. Regardless, it looks like it's the way to go for durability and longevity. 

Thanks again!


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## JHAYTER (Jul 26, 2018)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> I consult on 4-6 theatres a year and they all have a stage floor and almost all are plyron. Few but not zero issues.
> 
> Personally I would not like a sheet floor covering like linoleum because of fastening through it, but you may be able to limit or prohibit fastening.
> 
> ...


Thanks, Bill! Lots to think about here!


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## Colin (Jul 26, 2018)

JHAYTER said:


> Thanks for all this information, Allana! Sounds like you were / are in the same situation as us, and I think Stagelam is going to be the answer. Please let me know of any issues or details that come up during the install, I would be very interested to know how it goes. I talked to another theatre in Ontario that had some issues with stagelam being slippery and they recieved batches that were different shades of black so they had to paint it anyway. Curious if anyone else has experienced this. Regardless, it looks like it's the way to go for durability and longevity.
> 
> Thanks again!



We got Stagelam at my prior job and I can confirm that it can get slippery and also has some color variation. We never painted it and although it claims to be paintable I was a bit skeptical because of how dense and nonporous and slippery it is, almost like a textured UHMW. A successful paint job could probably help the slickness and of course the color issues. Stagelam isn't smooth but has a little texture and that does help, but we found it to be slicker than maso especially with a little sawdust or water - not such a concern that we regretted it, but something to know about.

Other observations:

Stagelam is VERY hard, durable and stable as advertised. This can be good and bad.

We tested sanding some blemishes out in a wing and the black all the way through thing is of limited use because when sanding you change the texture and sheen, so a fresh coat of paint would be nice at that point anyway. Sanding does basically work though if you have spots that don't clean up well with other methods. Lots of stuff that would really muck up a hardboard/MDF floor was easy to wipe, peel or scrape right off though.

If you want to regularly (or even rarely) screw/drill into your floor, you will regret covering it in Stagelam. Definitely order it pre-drilled for installation. I don't remember if that's standard or by request only. I can't overstate how awful it is to drill.

The edges of the sheets remain very crisp unlike a softer material that wears smooth at the seams, and since we didn't paint it that didn't help bridge seams either. So, while it looked great on it's own, I found the seams telegraphed through our vinyl dance floor considerably more than a well-prepared hardboard covering does. We did a lot of dance and I didn't hear anything about it from dancers, but it sure seems like a less forgiving surface for dance. I know it was less forgiving on my knees than the fir and hardboard floors I've worked on.

Overall, for a road house that doesn't allow drilling in the floor I think it is a good choice. I can't imagine ever needing to replace it, so the value is probably pretty good even at the high initial cost.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Jul 26, 2018)

I really appreciate all the first hand reports especially on stagelam. I'd been tempted to recommend it but clearly not the perfect no faults stage floor we all wish for.


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## JHAYTER (Jul 27, 2018)

Colin said:


> We got Stagelam at my prior job and I can confirm that it can get slippery and also has some color variation. We never painted it and although it claims to be paintable I was a bit skeptical because of how dense and nonporous and slippery it is, almost like a textured UHMW. A successful paint job could probably help the slickness and of course the color issues. Stagelam isn't smooth but has a little texture and that does help, but we found it to be slicker than maso especially with a little sawdust or water - not such a concern that we regretted it, but something to know about.
> 
> Other observations:
> 
> ...


Great information, Colin...Really appreciate this!


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## spenserh (Aug 2, 2018)

Allana said:


> Northrop, University of Minnesota campus
> 60'W x 40' D + wings, 2 pits, and upstage storage
> Roadhouse with emphasis in touring dance
> Newly Renovated in 2014. Masonite floor needed replacing within 6-9 months. Problems: tape pulled up paint/top sheets of maso, tesselations from under floor, warping/peeling in response to heavy roadcases (2 ton motors), ugly from so much brown flooring exposed.
> ...



Same boat here, our original Maso floor that was installed around 2009 held up until 2016 when we decided to replace it. Since then we have had all the same problems you describe, our paint budget has probably doubled, we used to only have to paint after doing a big production, now we are painting every month or two.

When your new floor is done, do you mind snapping some close ups? It looks good on the website, but I'd like to see the seams up close.


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## JHAYTER (Aug 15, 2018)

Will do spenser. Just started the ball rolling on this purchase today...I'll keep you all posted with progress, however because of our busy performance schedule and lead time on the product we may not see it until december....Brrrr I got cold just thinking about that!


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## Allana (Dec 7, 2018)

So 6 months after we installed stagelam, I have some observations and pictures.


Some sheets are a different color than others. (See photo)
We don't have problems with the corners not lining up (being too tall for dancers). We had issues with the subfloor before we put this in so part of the install was leveling the crap out of the subfloor before the lam was laid. Then bad corners were addressed after the fact before we signed off on it.
Easier to scratch than I originally thought but still much improved from meso. (see photo) Very hard to dent. These scratches are permanent as others mentioned above because, although black, it does have a different shine than original. Painting it doesn't seem like a good option. Scratches are invisible from any reasonable audience distance though.
We haven't noticed the slippery problem but that doesn't mean it's not real. It's really nice that liquid doesn't soak in/stain.
We haven't had to drill into it yet (it came pre-drilled). Not looking forward to it.
Tape and sticky residue comes right up! Even if someone unleashes their duct tape on your space.
Things I definitely didn't expect:

It reflects yellow light! Pale flesh looks like its suffering from a mild case of jaundice, just enough that most people wouldn't notice but it drives me (the lighting sup) crazy. I dropped some L202 in the side washes and now it's only distracting.
It has a chemical reaction to very diluted isopropyl alcohol. We couldn't track down what the burning plastic smell was just before house open until it happened again the next night when mopping.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Dec 7, 2018)

Thanks for the excellent report!


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## macsound (Dec 7, 2018)

Some questions, since you detailed everything so well...

Do you usually add some alcohol to your mop water or was this from some messy first aid?
Does the yellow light reflection only happen with actual yellow light, or any color you hit it with that has yellow in it, only the yellow reflects?
Are the scratches from load-in/out or from every day casters rolling weird?


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## Allana (Dec 8, 2018)

Hi @macsound . Answers below:

We usually add alcohol in mop water for mopping marley. We don't lay marley in the wings but we usually mop the wings while we have the mop out anyway.
All of my lights are incandescent. I don't notice the yellowish light when gel is added. Most of the shows we do require a no color wash so that's really what I pay attention to/ I'm not super particular about color matching for lectern-style shows.
The scratches are from everyday wear. For instance, the flag stands we have scratch it if you drag and flowers in baskets will scratch it too. They aren't deep scratches but things don't have to be particularly heavy to make a color/texture shift.


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## Moonthink (Jan 4, 2019)

This thread is an interesting read...

5 years ago I decided to replace our maso sacrificial floor (that had been in there 10-12 years prior). We're not a roadhouse but a self-producing theater, so our floor gets painted a lot. I had a hard time at that point even finding 1/4" tempered hardboard that was smooth on both sides so that it could be flipped if necessary, and also because the smooth finish seems more moisture resistant.

I'm now having a lot of the same issues others have described here, separation between layers, etc. So I am starting to explore other options...

Stagelam doesn't seem like a good option for our space, but might be good for a roadhouse type or events space.

Plyron doesn't seem like the answer to me either -- too thick, too expensive, hard to find for me locally.

Several of the professional theaters in my area have made the switch in the last 10-15 years from maso/duron type products to 1/4" MDF. Now I've never used MDF as flooring myself, and my gut feeling is that it would not do well with moisture at all. Our theater goes from 20% humidity in the winter to 80% in the summer (non-condenser AC), which tends to make make floor sheeting warp and bubble. But local guys in these other theaters swear by it.

Even though I was very careful when I installed the replacement hardboard sheets -- I laid them out in the space for a week, painted one side, let it sit for another week, flipped and painted the other side, waited a week again before using screws every 2' grid. I probably needed to leave a little more space between them. I didn't leave 1/16" but I thought I had left enough. After 5 years gaps are gone though and some buckling or difficulty removing old pieces due to expansion.

Anyway, I was wondering if anyone had experience using moisture resistant 1/4" MDF as sacrificial flooring? I want some product that takes paint well, is readily obtainable and not super expensive so that if a piece gets damage, you just pull that one out and replace. With the hardboard, I was able to flip a few to get a little more life out of them.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Jan 4, 2019)

When I worked on Willow Creek, the 1/4" mdf was their choice because they could always get it at the 24 hour Home Depot. It can buckle just like hardboard. Nothing cheap and easy to get won't. I specify plyron because it won't buckle and requires very few fasteners. 24" on centers but thinking of trying 24*32 next project.


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## Moonthink (Jan 8, 2019)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> When I worked on Willow Creek, the 1/4" mdf was their choice because they could always get it at the 24 hour Home Depot. It can buckle just like hardboard. Nothing cheap and easy to get won't. I specify plyron because it won't buckle and requires very few fasteners. 24" on centers but thinking of trying 24*32 next project.



I like 24", gives a quick point of reference for rough layout. The Plyron seems like it would be good for certain spaces, but the thickness would be problematic for our space. Our floor gets painted a lot, and a good amount of abuse, so ideally something relatively cheap and readily available is what we need. Then we just flip or replace when a piece gets too bad.


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## JHAYTER (Jan 9, 2019)

Thanks Allana for all your detailed notes! 

Happy to report that our Stagelam install started this week. Demo of the maso went fairly smooth, and thankfully our sub-floor was still in great shape which is making the install nice and fast.

Stagelam was delivered on time and packaged nicely on 4x8 skids piled 30 sheets high. The sheets came stacked with cardboard between them to prevent damage during shipping. So far all the sheets seem to be nice and square and they did a nice job on the countersinking and pre-drilling. 

First impression is that this stuff is going to look really great, and will be a lot less work to maintain. I can see what some people are saying about the colour, it can look a bit patchy, but seems to depend on what angle you look at it. Doesn't feel slippery to me at all, and we have some wet boots on it right now because of some rain. 

I'll post some more pics when its all finished up! Excited to see the finished product!


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## BillConnerFASTC (Jan 9, 2019)

interesting to see the long dimension up and down stage. I've never done it that way.


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## Dionysus (Feb 4, 2019)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> interesting to see the long dimension up and down stage. I've never done it that way.


One of my venues actually has the masonite sheets alternating directions. Actually makes sense given that its a black box in the shape of an octagon I guess.


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## Ancient Engineer (Feb 5, 2019)

The Black Octagon... waidaminit... The Octagon is where Chuck Norris fights (and I think Lee Van Cleef).

Great venue, Dionysus!


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## Dionysus (Feb 7, 2019)

Ancient Engineer said:


> The Black Octagon... waidaminit... The Octagon is where Chuck Norris fights (and I think Lee Van Cleef).
> 
> Great venue, Dionysus!



Thanks yeah it's the smallest venue I work at (also one of my two main gigs; I'm the Head House Tech), its the "studio" theatre at the Grand Theatre (London). In "standard" configuration its has 147 seats (144 sold) tiered in 8 rows with 1' per row rake. So yeah, tiny, however, it is my FAVORITE venue in the city. I get a good mix of professional and amateur theatre. Have done everything from Evil Dead the Musical (currently doing The Wedding Singer), to Hard Dramas (did The Boy in the Moon last fall; which was AMAZING), to fringe theatre. ALMOST all the lighting positions are on catwalks that you don't have to lean WAY down on to hang/focus, the room has an a-typical shape (octagon), great acoustics, well equipped. However backstage is very small which can cause some interesting issues with some of the bigger shows.
The best part is since its a black box we regularly re-configure it to *In the Round, Cabaret, Thrust, regular tiered*, etc. 

And yes the floor surface is masonite and each row alternates between going 8' side in line with the standard setting line or the opposite. Thankfully it was installed so that there is a nice line down the centreline of the theatre (however off by a half inch).
I say they don't make hardboard/masonite like they used to because this stuff has held up well, even though some minor floods and has god knows how many layers of paint on it.
We've talked about replacing it for the last few years as the structure of the floor (sleepers and plywood over concrete) has warped a little, however is generally in great shape even though it's older than I am.

I know there was talk in another thread about floor pockets. Well this theatre has 5, however only 2 of them are currently hooked up (rest were disconnected when they took out the slide patch panel and replaced the dimmers like 8 years ago). NEVER had ANY issue with them. The covers are THICK and heavy, and actually UNDER the main layer of masonite. When not in use we put a masonite cutout on top, they fit tight so they won't just pop out. Certainly not like the flimsy ones you typically see these days.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Feb 7, 2019)

Dionysus said:


> its the "studio" theatre at the Grand Theatre (London)



Very nice!


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