# Parents fight for fly loft



## ruinexplorer (Oct 8, 2018)

https://fcnp.com/2018/09/26/plans-new-high-school-exclude-fly-loft-system-theater/

It seems that some parents do not like value engineering. It will be interesting to see if they are going to get it.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Oct 8, 2018)

Fascinating. Too bad the utilization - turn around - is greatly helped by the rigging. At $120m, its not much. 

I loved the line about all the awful spaces, and the ignorance of the superintendent that somehow technology can compensate for no fly loft. I face this stuff on every project.

Great find!


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## gafftapegreenia (Oct 8, 2018)

Yeah, cause that “Broadway technology” will sure be a lot cheaper than building a fly loft. I mean what are they gonna do, have Hudson install an automation package every time they do Grease?


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## NickVon (Oct 8, 2018)

That's my Home TOWN! sorta. Even a partial height Fly, is better then Nothing. I'm not saying you have to fly in/out 24' high drops completely out of sight, but being able to bring in a border or linesets for hanging set pieces/drapers/Lighting is a must.


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## Stan Longhofer (Oct 8, 2018)

Have the superintendent come in and participate with students doing a light hang using only ladders on a dead hung system, and he’ll change his mind about the safety issue.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Oct 8, 2018)

Stan Longhofer said:


> Have the superintendent come in and participate with students doing a light hang using only ladders on a dead hung system, and he’ll change his mind about the safety issue.


Yes but you don't need the fly loft to raise and lower lighting battens. Its about losing a drop or tall piece of scenery or - more important - changing over from a band concert to a play overnight or between afternoon and evening.


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## Stan Longhofer (Oct 8, 2018)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> Yes but you don't need the fly loft to raise and lower lighting battens. Its about losing a drop or tall piece of scenery or - more important - changing over from a band concert to a play overnight or between afternoon and evening.


Fair enough, but I’d bet dollars to donuts that if they’re not putting in a fly system, they’re also not putting in rigging for the lighting battens.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Oct 8, 2018)

Stan Longhofer said:


> Fair enough, but I’d bet dollars to donuts that if they’re not putting in a fly system, they’re also not putting in rigging for the lighting battens.



Very possible, but motorizing 4 or 5 electrics is probably less than $100,000, while the full fly is on the order of a million. The comeback from the admin was “the fly is not possible due to the design of the building, but technological solutions may be found to compensate for the loss of the fly.” and roll drops were mentioned. It is a $120m project, so there is probably $6m contingency - funds not spent before the project begins construction. And public pressure can shake a few buck loose. (Is that kind of the reverse of campaign contributions for quid pro quo?) 

But I appreciate your cynicism. I lose the motorized electrics as nearly as often as not. (But they get the electric hoist to store the wrestling mat.)


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## ruinexplorer (Oct 8, 2018)

I do appreciate the concerns over safety, but I believe that since that is understood at the get go, they should be able to take some appropriate steps. In any case, I believe that if you are going to plan anything with technology (be it traditional or modern), you need to design with the intention of maintenance and service life. How well can the school maintain either system?


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## BillConnerFASTC (Oct 8, 2018)

Compared to the cheerleader squad, i think the student techies are pretty safe.


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## StradivariusBone (Oct 10, 2018)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> Compared to the cheerleader squad, i think the student techies are pretty safe.


That's my reply when questioned about the safety of having kids operate flies. How many football kids visited the ER last year vs. how many tech kids?


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## Ted jones (Oct 10, 2018)

Bill,

Do you remember James Hull Miller stages? They'd be perfect for this superintendent that knows there must be some tech out there that will compensate for rigging. UGGGGG.

T


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## derekleffew (Oct 10, 2018)

Ted jones said:


> Bill,
> Do you remember James Hull Miller stages? They'd be perfect for this superintendent that knows there must be some tech out there that will compensate for rigging. UGGGGG.


Thank you for that Welcome to 1965, Mr. Jones.
https://www.controlbooth.com/threads/digital-scenery-high-school.40967/page-2#post-353917


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## gafftapegreenia (Oct 10, 2018)

derekleffew said:


> Thank you for that Welcome to 1965, Mr. Jones.
> https://www.controlbooth.com/threads/digital-scenery-high-school.40967/page-2#post-353917



Oh my god. How did I not know about those? How many of those abominations were built?


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## Ted jones (Oct 10, 2018)

gafftapegreenia said:


> Oh my god. How did I not know about those? How many of those abominations were built?


Unfortunately, many. And since the users change and the book didn't always get passed down, the users end up fighting with the stage. The center ceiling piece was cut down and dropped (literally) on the stage deck. He then called maintenance and said "it fell".


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## tjrobb (Oct 11, 2018)

Ted jones said:


> Unfortunately, many. And since the users change and the book didn't always get passed down, the users end up fighting with the stage. The center ceiling piece was cut down and dropped (literally) on the stage deck. He then called maintenance and said "it fell".


"I swear it was like that when I got here!"


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## BillConnerFASTC (Oct 11, 2018)

Goes along with the td who accidently spilled black paint all over the entire bright white proscenium.


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## gafftapegreenia (Oct 11, 2018)

Sometimes ya just gotta take matters in your own hands and ask for forgiveness later...

Sometimes.


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## Jay Ashworth (Oct 13, 2018)

"the fly is not possible due to the design of the building"

Um, they are still *designing the building*, aren't they?


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## BillConnerFASTC (Oct 13, 2018)

Jay Ashworth said:


> "the fly is not possible due to the design of the building"
> 
> Um, they are still *designing the building*, aren't they?


Compared to what I here for excuses and rational daily, this one's no so incredible. Incredible still and BS, but not as outlandish as a lot.


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## tjrobb (Oct 15, 2018)

Jay Ashworth said:


> "the fly is not possible due to the design of the building"
> 
> Um, they are still *designing the building*, aren't they?



This just means the architect / design team can't make it pretty enough for their tastes.


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## macsound (Oct 15, 2018)

Jay Ashworth said:


> "the fly is not possible due to the design of the building"
> 
> Um, they are still *designing the building*, aren't they?


Just ran into this with acoustic treatment. 
I said the reason we're designing it now, before the plans are approved, is so you CAN design my use-case into the design of the building.


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## rwhealey (Oct 17, 2018)

tjrobb said:


> This just means the architect / design team can't make it pretty enough for their tastes.



While this cynical answer may be correct, I would guess they mean that the foundation, structure, architecture, etc. was already approved by the school and then the architect continued to a high level of detail before the parents started asking for a fly loft. 

Design isn't free. Even if going back and re-designing is the right thing to do it would require an additional service to the design contract.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Oct 17, 2018)

rwhealey said:


> Even if going back and re-designing is the right thing to do it would require an additional service to the design contract.



That's a nice theory, but in my experience design professionals seldom get additional services for this kind of change. It would depend how far down the road and what had been committed to. Maybe I get additional services when they add a black box, but to increase seat count by 50% - unlikely if before bidding. Plus even if add services are approved, if its a million dollar add, the design fees won't be significant at 4-6% as is typical for public schools.


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## MNicolai (Oct 18, 2018)

tjrobb said:


> This just means the architect / design team can't make it pretty enough for their tastes.



Not always. Often it's the school district imposing the requirement on the architect not to have a fly loft. I don't see this as much with smaller school districts but county and metro-wide districts with more schools under their umbrella tend to have a laundry list of operational reasons why they don't want these, and the decision makers at the district level don't always give a damn about the art of theater or the function of the room.

1) Student safety operating rigging
2) Student safety focusing lighting (they'd rather students be on catwalks than ladders)
3) Annual maintenance costs ($3k/year inspection/school -- not bad if you're operating 3 schools with fly lofts -- if you're operating 30 they want to kill this line item out of their district budgets)
4) Pre-conceived notions of what triggers a fire curtain or deluge system being required -- not always based on fact, but it influences the decision very early on the process nonetheless.
5) Cost of rigging systems and associated structure (this is seen as an easy way to recover 6-7 figures of project budget).

Magnet schools tend to get more leeway on these things, but for the average high school it can be a real uphill battle dictated by the owner more than the A/E team, and rising construction costs are only making it a steeper climb.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Oct 18, 2018)

I too find the rural schools and one high school districts more open to the flyloft. These schools also serve as a social center for the remote communities they serve.


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## Jay Ashworth (Oct 19, 2018)

I don't disagree with Mike's appraisal.

I just tend to the baby/bathwater solution.

"You're not going to let us build a theatre that can actually be *used*?

Fine. Kill it."

[ Anyone who reads in my last line a President Bartlet "Shut it down" delivery has much to go on.  ]


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## BillConnerFASTC (Oct 19, 2018)

Jay Ashworth said:


> "You're not going to let us build a theatre that can actually be *used*?



I've consulted on a lot of theatres that don't have fly lofts that the users love. There are pluses and minuses to every design. Being able to get to every light over stage via catwalk in a minute or less and not dealing with ladders and lifts is not all bad. Laying out curtains and tracks so they can be pulled against walls and bagged - out of harm's way - seems like a help. Including scenery tracks for drops and scenic pieces provides an ability to do set changes. Is a full working stage with gridiron better? Usually (the K-8 schools is debatable.) But are these hybrid end stages better than none? I think clearly yes based on feedback from the handful of users I stay in touch with.


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## Jay Ashworth (Oct 19, 2018)

Fair enough.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Oct 19, 2018)

There are a lot of public schol theatres that should not have been built.


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## Jay Ashworth (Oct 20, 2018)

Well, as is suggested many places in this thread (or others here), it does depend on what your goals are.

*I* tend to think that -- at least at high school level and above -- pedagogy should be either first or second on the list of drivers, and it does the pedagogy little good to build a theatre that does *not* reflect the real world they'll end up in later.

Sure, it's more important at the college level, especially in places where there's a formal theatre program, but I don't think that excuses the high-school people, myself.

Opinions will, of course, differ, and no one's paying me for mine.


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