# No Booth?



## Tyler Lindsley (Dec 19, 2019)

Looking for suggestions. We have no dedicated booth or FOH mixing area. We have 3 "air wall" partitions that make up our back wall - typically our consoles sit within the center partition area, but more often than not - we have to open that wall for additional seating or configurations, and I find myself moving our consoles back and forth and back and forth. I just recently moved everything to the house-right partition, but it doesn't all quite fit.

We do have more "wheelchair seating" areas than necessary, perhaps one of those could be a future home. A few issues with relocating is: all inputs are within that HR area. The HL wall NEVER opens, that could be a nice permanent home, but that side has our 'lobby' entrance, so more traffic flows through there.

What have you done to find a more permanent home for your FOH consoles, and what would you recommend?

Attached are pictures for reference.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Dec 20, 2019)

Modify last row center section - may need to poke into second to last row - with wheelchair spaces left and right if needed, and a part height wall - jury box - in center - probably 12-14. I really need detailed plans and sections to see all the challenges and opportunities, but this seems like one thing to try. 

No adjacent second floor space? Carve s lighting booth out and install a window?


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## MRW Lights (Dec 20, 2019)

What about remote options? You can lower your footprint for show operations if you only need a control surface for audio in the room. Can you move your SM and or lighting backstage in a loft with video monitors or an adjacent room for lighting? Most of the "broadway" houses we set up have a very small jury box platform like @BillConnerFASTC mentions. Everything is remote and networked with a KVM at the mixer for viewing various support systems and a console that's mostly a control surface on a network interface with I/O's, amps and bulkheads tucked away wherever I can find space.


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## Darin (Dec 20, 2019)

Sounds like there needs to be a realistic discussion with the producer(s) of your venue. A FOH mixing position is a must for shows, and can't be sacrificed to sell a few extra seats. Its unfair to force sound to move back and forth. The producer(s) need to capitulate here and allow sound to build a permanent home


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## BillConnerFASTC (Dec 20, 2019)

Chances are if just seat count, looks like any displaced form last two rows could be relocated. But its a plan problem.


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## macsound (Dec 23, 2019)

Where do your inputs come in on HR? That black wall panel in the second photo? 
What's on the other side of the airwall on HL? Would running a snake over the large center airwall be feasible and remove the HL airwall so it can be framed out to become a real booth with a wall so you don't have to worry about the foot traffic.


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## mbrown3039 (Dec 25, 2019)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> Modify last row center section - may need to poke into second to last row - with wheelchair spaces left and right if needed, and a part height wall - jury box - in center - probably 12-14.



^^^ This. Make it permanent and now the whole "air wall open yes/no" question is irrelevant. m


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## Kittin (Dec 27, 2019)

I feel like a dolt just agreeing with everyone else, but its pretty much the only thing to do.
If your theatre wants to be viewed as a viable option for tours, a FOH is pretty standard.
I, quite honestly, have nothing but respect for you for continuing to work there more than one show without being provided proper space or being told you have to move. I can't stand when there is no partition between me and the audience (being hushed by an audience member while calling spot cues or troubleshooting is NOT on my happy list) also, I need light to be able to see my notes, my keyboard, etc, and without some sort of wall, that light is distracting. And let's not mention audience members potentially blowing circuits/destroying the show by plugging in every fricking device possible into where the equipment to run the show draws its power from, because, if they cant use them, at least half will try to charge them.
If the venue ops really want to provide their patrons with great shows, they will provide the necessary space, imo at least 30' - enough for audio and LX, but also video or for a projector to be set there, photographer or videographer, or for additional lights, etc.
Explain it like this if you have to... With the current "mobile" setup you're wasting time, and those who are in the surrounding seats are getting a less-than-acceptable show, meaning that if a critic comes without anyone knowing, finds themself in a seat near the "booth" and is constantly distracted by light, noise, whispering, or a chair or table leg scraping...the whole venue will be hurting. Giving your staff the necessary room and privacy to work without the eyes of the audience being able to follow means the theatre magic can stay just that....magic. What magician wants to give away their tricks? Having your boards and ops in the audience does just that.


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## Tyler Lindsley (Jan 1, 2020)

I am the TD of this space, so working every event / production all year. Have to move FOH back and forth and back and forth. They did recently take out 5 seats in the center of the last row for wheelchair spaces, but there are wheelchair spaces on either side of the auditorium as well. How many wheelchair spaces are required? I feel we have more than are. As much as I would love to move into the HL room, that is used daily as a lounge/concession area.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Jan 1, 2020)

Wheelchair Spaces in Assembly Areas Calculator | ADANW





nwadacenter.org


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## Tyler Lindsley (Jan 1, 2020)

We only need 6 wheelchair spaces. We currently have 10. So I could use that center section, assuming facilities/administration were not opposed. The only issue would be covering the cables running to the new position.

Replying to an earlier comment: our inputs/outputs are on either side of that wall opening. Audio/coms are on the HR side, lighting and power on the HL side.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Jan 1, 2020)

Well, you need to look at all the ADA requirements about dispersion.


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## macsound (Jan 2, 2020)

How does it work in reality when handicapped seats are removed for FOH? Is it just that there's no audit that day or the ticket office knows the actual available accessible seats based on those being removed?
I know places like schools and theatres are different because the expectation of number of people arriving in a wheelchair is somewhat predictable either based on tickets or enrollment, but what happens if you don't have enough?


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## TimMc (Jan 21, 2020)

macsound said:


> How does it work in reality when handicapped seats are removed for FOH? Is it just that there's no audit that day or the ticket office knows the actual available accessible seats based on those being removed?
> I know places like schools and theatres are different because the expectation of number of people arriving in a wheelchair is somewhat predictable either based on tickets or enrollment, *but what happens if you don't have enough?*


You pull more aisle seats wherever the floor is sufficiently level so the wheel chairs remain in place.

See the recent news items about AMTRAK trying to charge a group of wheel chair users $25,000 to pull seats to accommodate the group's reservation. While AMTRAK is is ADA-compliant in terms of space reserved to wheel chair users, they're missing the point of the ADA - that reasonable accommodation must be made, and charging $25k to make room for 6 more wheel chairs would unlikely be found "reasonable" in court for the 2 hour ride that is normally ticketed at $16.00


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## sk8rsdad (Jan 21, 2020)

TimMc said:


> charging $25k to make room for 6 more wheel chairs would unlikely be found "reasonable" in court for the 2 hour ride that is normally ticketed at $16.00


In fairness to Amtrak, the group could fit on to 2 trains with no reconfiguration, and trains depart frequently. Apparently their 3 dedicated spots are adequate for most train trips except this one annual event. I'm not sure why another car couldn't be added to the train but I guess that still wouldn't permit the group to sit together so it would still generate bad press.


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## TimMc (Jan 21, 2020)

sk8rsdad said:


> In fairness to Amtrak, the group could fit on to 2 trains with no reconfiguration, and trains depart frequently. Apparently their 3 dedicated spots are adequate for most train trips except this one annual event. I'm not sure why another car couldn't be added to the train but I guess that still wouldn't permit the group to sit together so it would still generate bad press.


They mentioned having to remove a car from service for the modification, too. I'm pretty sure AMTRAK has a car in a yard that could be modified and added to the train on those dates, and it could remain modified for similar use in the future. What I find mind-blowing about the whole thing is that in this day and age of social media and "gossip at the speed of light", AMTRAK blew the opportunity to have a warm, fuzzy marketing moment that could have gone viral. "AMTRAK - we welcome all our riders, no matter how they board our trains" would sure look better than "hey AMTRAK, you're being jerks".


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## BillConnerFASTC (Jan 21, 2020)

Well, assuming that modifying the seating for a large group of people who use wheelchairs in a train car should be free, I assume you would all be happy to remove a large number of seats in your theatres to accomodate a group who wants to sit together, right? Forget it could be for a matinee and you wouldn't have time to get them all back in for evening show.


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## TimMc (Jan 21, 2020)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> Well, assuming that modifying the seating for a large group of people who use wheelchairs in a train car should be free, I assume you would all be happy to remove a large number of seats in your theatres to accomodate a group who wants to sit together, right? Forget it could be for a matinee and you wouldn't have time to get them all back in for evening show.


It's an annual event, it's a contracted group service. AMTRAK has previously charged a fee to modify seating, but it wasn't 5 figures and that's the issue.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Jan 21, 2020)

TimMc said:


> It's an annual event, it's a contracted group service. AMTRAK has previously charged a fee to modify seating, but it wasn't 5 figures and that's the issue.



So theatres should have to do the same, correct? I believe under ADA they are both "public accommodation". 

If I sold something to you at a big loss last year, am I obligated to do it again this year?

And the ADA guidelines are intended to define reasonable accommodation, to be a safe haven. Amtrak met those requirements but now is being told its not enough?

Why can't they transfer, like on airplanes? Is that unreasonable?

As far as the spare car in the yard, dream on. Most of their equipment is past its predicted useful life and they struggle to get whole train sets for the current schedule.

Amtrak loses money every year - always has for 50 years now. 

Amtrak's delivery sucks, kind of like the guy they pulled of the plane in Chicago a while back. But the position is very reasonable.


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## TimMc (Jan 21, 2020)

Bill, if a group of wheel chair users called the group sales person at a theater, you can damn well bet that theater would find a way to accommodate the *sale*.

In the case of AMTRAK, the good will they *could* have created would have cost a lot more to "buy" in the conventional ways.

Nowhere did I say AMTRAK should do this for free, but at nearly 20x the price tag of their previous accommodation pricing it has terrible "optics".


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## macsound (Jan 21, 2020)

I'm sure the dollar amount was made up. There's no guide for how much something like that would cost. It was created as a deterrent, just like when a mechanic doesn't want to work on your old car. If you pay them enough, they'll find another shop to outsource it to.

If a group of wheelchair users called a theatre or theater and said they needed accessible seating, the response would be the same as it is for an able bodied individual. 
If the number of seats requested exceeds that in your party, your party will be split up among the days. 

Good example - I worked for 6 summers in a 2000 seat amphitheater built in the 1920s. The top row and the front row each had about 10 wheelchair seats with a friend seat. 
There is no amount of money that could be thrown at that theatre to allow more than 20 people, and the party will be split, 10 and 10.
The seats were bolted to wood benches with wood stairs with steel handrails sunk into the sloped cement underneath. I believe there were 30 rows which makes about 90 steps. 
In other words, not possible.

Although I know nothing about rolling stock, I assume they're designed approximately like the local commuter trains I ride here in SF.
Those seats are bolted to the wall, underneath the wall facia so they can easily sweep and mop the entire train without chair legs getting in the way.
They have 669 cars and I presume about 10% are out of commission every day for maintenance. 
If BART is anything like Amtrack, there is some dollar amount they could receive to make that one trip possible by removing/ retrofitting one car, but it would have to atleast pay the union wage for the guys for a week or two.

Although it's bad press for Amtrak and they could have made the statement more candy coated, it's not unreasonable.


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## macsound (Jan 21, 2020)

Back to my original question though, what happens in theatre. There's usually only one row of seats thats level and those are already set aside. Is it like old folks with walkers? Just have them transfer?


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## BillConnerFASTC (Jan 21, 2020)

TimMc said:


> Bill, if a group of wheel chair users called the group sales person at a theater, you can damn well bet that theater would find a way to accommodate the *sale*.


Sit together. Not different sections, just like not different train cars. Requiring removing seats.


TimMc said:


> In the case of AMTRAK, the good will they *could* have created would have cost a lot more to "buy" in the conventional ways.


Yes, as I said, the delivery sucked.



TimMc said:


> Nowhere did I say AMTRAK should do this for free, but at nearly 20x the price tag of their previous accommodation pricing it has terrible "optics".



They stated the cost. I'm sure there is a line itemed accounting. The previous charge is irrelevant. Congress is hounding Amtrak to stop burning through taxpayer money do they stop giving away things and get criticized. Classic rock and hard place conundrum.


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## sk8rsdad (Jan 21, 2020)

If a group of wheelchair patrons called our theatre and it was larger than the number of wheelchair spaces available we would have to book them into several shows. We have a finite number of wheelchair spaces and cannot rebuild the auditorium, washrooms, and fire exits on a whim.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Jan 22, 2020)

sk8rsdad said:


> If a group of wheelchair patrons called our theatre and it was larger than the number of wheelchair spaces available we would have to book them into several shows. We have a finite number of wheelchair spaces and cannot rebuild the auditorium, washrooms, and fire exits on a whim.



Reasonable - and there are 5 trains a day Chicago to Bloomington.

I consult with the Access Board, I'm a member of ANSI A117. 1 Accessible and Usable Buildings and Facilities committee, and I have supported - successfully - some requirements that colleagues feel are over reaching - all to minimize discrimination on account of disabilities. And I can assure you that making the balcony, control room, and orchestra pit accessible - usually three different elevators or lifts - is very expensive. (Because contrary to other multi-level buildings, you can't get to these 4 different levels with one elevator.) I debate the questions in the committees and it gets contentious, but whenever I show plans and photos of my designs, they are generally very well received, and usually exceed the minimum requirements in all regards. (Remember, meeting code is a letter grade of D- - just passing).) Where a theatre may serve a particularly disproportionate number of people with disabilities, like a high school in a neighborhood with a Veterans Hospital, I try to figure out a way to allow more accessible seating, like making whole first and last (of a section where level) rows easily removable.

I agree the $25,000 seems high but I really have no expertise in breaking up a train set, moving a car to a shop, getting a crew to modify it, moving back to train, and reconnecting it; and then all again to restore it. I'll bet it is many thousands though.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Jan 22, 2020)

Amtrak caved. They run millions in deficits - what's a few more thousand. Maybe they can use it to get more taxpayer dollars.


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## macsound (Jan 22, 2020)

Speaking of elevators, how much does an elevator cost that goes 1 floor? Assuming new construction/ a perfect world.


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## sk8rsdad (Jan 22, 2020)

Would that be the construction cost or with mandatory inspection and maintenance?


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## macsound (Jan 22, 2020)

Just the cost of the actual elevator and installing the elevator. Zero frills.


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## DrewE (Jan 22, 2020)

macsound said:


> Speaking of elevators, how much does an elevator cost that goes 1 floor? Assuming new construction/ a perfect world.



A passenger elevator that goes to exactly one floor? Very little, and any carpenter could build one; indeed, I could build one myself. 

If it goes between two or more floors? That's rather more expensive! 

(Thank you very much, I'll be here all week...)


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## sk8rsdad (Jan 22, 2020)

Many years ago the ballpark was $50,000 to $75,000 CAD for a hydraulic elevator. Structural and electrical work is extra as is the basic construction cost of the square footage the elevator occupies.


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## RonHebbard (Jan 22, 2020)

macsound said:


> *Just the cost of the actual elevator and installing the elevator. * Zero frills.


*@macsound*
Up here North of the walls, one venue has a "normal" elevator in the lobby for the public. 

Back stage, there is a bare bones 'vator on each side; one to access the dimmer and sound rack rooms (two different elevations) wardrobe (cutters and seamstresses) costume laundry, wardrobe storage and the fly floor. If you're a wheelchair bound arbor loader you're SOL. 

On SL, a similar bare bones 'vator accesses two floors of offices and also one FOH Box Seating stall which could accommodate 3 wheelchair bound patrons if they're close friends (if they weren't before, they would be by intermission) 

When it comes to costs: What makes the two 'bare bones' 'vators 'bare bones'? 
Do NOT lean against the walls while elevating or descending; the floor, roof, rear wall and inner doors elevate: The side walls, both of them, DO NOT. 
Up here, north of Donnie's walls, this complies with MINIMUM code. 

How much does an elevator cost? Depends greatly upon what you're willing to accept. The public 'vator has in cab lighting and ventilation, an electrically operated emergency call bell, and a telephone. 
The two "access" 'vator's back stage have a light in their cab and a mechanical emergency call bell but no fans, their ventilation is / are perforated steel ventilation grilles in their rear wall; there are no side walls to ventilate. 
Toodleoo! 
Ron Hebbard


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## BillConnerFASTC (Jan 22, 2020)

Size and installation have a lot to do with it but in US$ - probably at least $35,000 and up to $50,000. Some owners don't want the kind with mechanism on the side - no hole - so that can affect. For orchestra pits and control rooms and some audience access, a LULA (Limited Use / Limited Application) can be less - one person in a chair and one companion. Maybe near $30,000 compete but less maintenance costs as well.

I'm often caught arguing for one that will take a costume rack or large console flat or even stock 4 X 8s -and that drives it up.


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## macsound (Jan 22, 2020)

YES! LULA (Limited Use / Limited Application)
You found me a term to google with! Exactly what I was thinking of. Truly a barebones elevator. 4 walls and an automatic door. Just nothing snazzy. No voices, maybe an 80mm PC fan for ventilation. Fluorescent tube on the ceiling. 

Tertiary question, in some theatres I've worked in, they had handicap lifts. Like those beige things with the ramp that flips down when you open the door.
They always had signs on them that said something about not being used to lift things, only people. They were also magically only located where you'd need to get a rolling rack up the stairs. Like an orchestra pit, sound room, laundry room. Pretty much all the locations Ron stated. Most of the time those situations ended up being a team lift, but if you were alone, you'd "break the rules" and roll your rack onto the lift. 
So is the sign just a deterrent? Obviously my 200# rack was well within the weight limits of the lift since no one rode up with it.
Would these Lu/La elevators have the same "rules"?

Here's the theory behind the application. Turn a warehouse into a theatre. It's about 25' tall in the open space which takes up about 85% of the space. Off to the far side there are bathrooms downstairs and a glassed in office. Upstairs there are 4-5 offices. I'd like to put in an elevator for those offices. There would be the occasional person using the elevator but really it's because furniture is heavy. Is that frowned upon for these Lu/La elevators?


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## BillConnerFASTC (Jan 22, 2020)

Well, I started routinely trying to make the control rooms and pits accessible since around 1990. When I visit, I make a point of asking about the use. I have not found one instance of person who uses a wheelchair having used them. They are frequently used for instruments - tympani and harps among others to pit - and for consoles and such to booth. I think that you would not have trouble unless the use of it for equipment somehow prevented or hindered its use for a person in a wheelchair. Kind of in that do you ever use a hammer without eye protection category. And you should always wear eye protection when hammering,and fall protection if on the edge of the stage and not otherwise protected.


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