# church is buying a new sound board....need help



## WorshipLeaderC (Jan 16, 2013)

Our church is buying a new sound board, and the pastor has asked for me to look into what would be a good product for our church. I have been given some info on a couple of Yamaha boards, as well as Allen and Heath. We are looking into a 24 to 32 channel board. your opinions are appreciated, even if they are not for either of these brands. and what would the prices for the board you recommend be?


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## Aman121 (Jan 16, 2013)

Whats your budget? Are you looking for an analog or digital console? Is this console mostly for basic reinforcement or are you going to be running full praise bands with monitor rrequirements ect? What is the skill level of the intended operators? In the 24 to 32 channel analog range, the Allen n Heath consoles are probably the best performers without breaking the bank. In that range for digital, an Allen n Heath iLive or Yamaha LS9 for the spendy and a behringer x32 for the tightwadded would all be excellent solutions. The iLive actually utilizes a digital snake so you only end up running one line from the stage to the surface. Be wary of mackies and the cheaper Behringer/Peavey boards, as well as the Yamaha MG series. None of those boards are absolute lemons, but you can do better.

Also welcome to the booth! Stick around, and learn something! Be sure to introduce yourself at the new member board.


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## BillESC (Jan 16, 2013)

+1 on Allen & Heath.

Allen & Heath.
.


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## StNic54 (Jan 16, 2013)

Take a good look at the consoles recommended to you - my only consideration to offer up is the use of analog controls over digital. I don't recommend a digital console with internal eq's if the users haven't been fully trained in audio. Also, often-times church operators come and go, and if you have a difficult console, you may find yourself in a rut down the road with untrained operators. Keep it simple, and again, have a good look at how accessible all the controls are.


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## TDN (Jan 16, 2013)

A nice compromise between the benefits of digital with the simplicity of analog is the Soundcraft SI Compact series. They come in 16, 24 and 32 channel flavors. I was able to get the 32 channel version for just under 5k last summer, so they are less expensive than an LS9 and Allen&Heath. What's really nice for the soundcraft series is you really don't have to use the menu during the show- there are hard controls for everything right on top, so training is much simplified. Select your channel, adjust its EQ, with dedicated knobs for everything.


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## gafftaper (Jan 16, 2013)

I would start with Allen and Heath and Yamaha. Nothing wrong with Soundcraft. Some Mackie products are okay, some around here have had issues with Mackie quality recently. Don't buy Behringer unless you're desperate. But beyond identifying brands, you need to carefully look at your needs before we can really recommend anything. Digital or Analog? How many Aux sends do you need? Do you want to run some things on sub groups? How many output channels do you need? How many stage monitors with independent mixes do you run? Do you want to run some channels through compression and/or reverb and others not? Do you want mute groups? The list goes on.


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## TOG (Jan 16, 2013)

StNic54 said:


> Take a good look at the consoles recommended to you - my only consideration to offer up is the use of analog controls over digital. I don't recommend a digital console with internal eq's if the users haven't been fully trained in audio. Also, often-times church operators come and go, and if you have a difficult console, you may find yourself in a rut down the road with untrained operators. Keep it simple, and again, have a good look at how accessible all the controls are.



I second keep it simple- but if you have lots of people that will have access to the board (including hired cleaning crew and teens) I would recommend a digital board that is password protected so that you can protect your mixes and settings. That includes protecting your settings from well-meaning but relatively clueless Church Sound Volunteers. 

Some of the digital boards I've worked with include Allen& Heath iLive and GLD-80, and Yamaha M7CL-48, LS9-32, and CL3. Wasn't too impressed with the Soundcraft digitals, have my doubts about Behringer,and won't touch Roland products. Midas and Avid are expensive for a basic worship-type environment (unless you are one of those mega-churches the catalogs like to brag about doing the installation for and ultimately get a write up in Live Sound International...) 

For entry-level I would recommend the Allen & Heath GLD-80 or the Yamaha CL1, they both have a tiny learning curve and very friendly configuration. As far as mono input channels go, you should keep in mind that you will need enough for the platform AND at the FOH position (wireless mics, direct input, etc) so a 24 channel console may be limiting. Analog and Digital snakes (platform to FOH) tend to be in multiples of eight, so your inputs should reflect this- minimum 24 at the platform with a minimum of eight mono inputs at FOH (for wireless mics, direct inputs, etc. Stereo inputs should cover all of your current feed needs plus two-three for changes in tech). An investment in a digital console speaks of an eye to the future and tech expansion. If you get something that's "bigger than your needs" at this point it will leave you someplace to go in the future.

(I currently mix on a Yamaha CL3 with remote I/O box, the "old" Yamaha M7CL-48/analog snake has been moved to the Youth & Community Center)(Not bragging- I do my own very-low-profile sound gigs with an Allen & Heath 16ch MixWizard! I'm planning to upgrade- probably to the A&H GLD-80.)


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## WorshipLeaderC (Jan 16, 2013)

Aman121 said:


> Whats your budget? Are you looking for an analog or digital console? Is this console mostly for basic reinforcement or are you going to be running full praise bands with monitor rrequirements ect? What is the skill level of the intended operators? In the 24 to 32 channel analog range, the Allen n Heath consoles are probably the best performers without breaking the bank. In that range for digital, an Allen n Heath iLive or Yamaha LS9 for the spendy and a behringer x32 for the tightwadded would all be excellent solutions. The iLive actually utilizes a digital snake so you only end up running one line from the stage to the surface. Be wary of mackies and the cheaper Behringer/Peavey boards, as well as the Yamaha MG series. None of those boards are absolute lemons, but you can do better.
> 
> 
> Also welcome to the booth! Stick around, and learn something! Be sure to introduce yourself at the new member board.



From what the sound committee has been given in a quote from the sound installation company, they are recommending the Allen and Heath. I have not had any past experience with Allen and Heath. but from what I have gleaned the past 24 hours, they seem to be our best bet. We are looking for an analog board. preferably one with 32 channels...and i think 8 aux channels (?) for our extra equipment running on the system. we have 1500-3000 appropriated for this one board buy. And definitely will be sticking around the boards here. Need to learn all i can. Our former sound tech is no longer at the church and we are subbing in ppl every week. so not a lot of knowledge on the sound board currently and the pastor and others in church are asking me to learn all i can to keep everything in working order. Will be fun to learn how to use whatever we buy, so I expect you will all hear much more from me in the coming weeks.


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## soundlight (Jan 16, 2013)

As many have mentioned, Allen & Heath is great, especially if you're looking at analog. One of the best smaller analog boards out there with good channel count is the A&H GL2400. The 32 channel model does fit within your price range, albeit on the higher side (but not at the high extreme).


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## WorshipLeaderC (Jan 16, 2013)

soundlight said:


> As many have mentioned, Allen & Heath is great, especially if you're looking at analog. One of the best smaller analog boards out there with good channel count is the A&H GL2400. The 32 channel model does fit within your price range, albeit on the higher side (but not at the high extreme).



that is actually the board that I think we may end up going with. about 1900 is what we were quoted a couple days ago. had also considered the Alan and Heath PA 28, but not sure of the overall benefits of jumping up to the GL2400 over this one. any thoughts?


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## Aman121 (Jan 16, 2013)

WorshipLeaderC said:


> that is actually the board that I think we may end up going with. about 1900 is what we were quoted a couple days ago. had also considered the Alan and Heath PA 28, but not sure of the overall benefits of jumping up to the GL2400 over this one. any thoughts?



Both are good boards, GL is a higher end product, while the PA series is more geared to institutions and churches. PA series is more of a bar band/school/church budget mixer while the GL series is geared to higher level needs. Hard to beat a GL in small mixer land really, if you can afford it its definitely a buy once cry once kinda purchase.


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## museav (Jan 17, 2013)

Be aware that some of the suggestions noted may be good products but are well outside your budget and that probably should have been established before any recommendations were offered.

You mentioned getting a quote from a sound installation company, is this a simple equipment purchase that is a direct replacement for an existing console or is this part of more comprehensive changes? If it is a direct replacement then what is it replacing and why are you replacing it? Knowing that might provide some insights into what users might be familiar with as well as the goals for the new mixer. If the new mixer is part of more comprehensive changes then might there be factors such as it being a brand your system provider can provide and warranty?

You noted a $3k budget and wanting 24 to 32 inputs (preferably 32) and 8 auxes. You did not identify what type or mix of inputs may be desired, whether you want subgroups, whether you need or want channel inserts or direct outputs, whether you have any existing external effects or dynamics processing, whether you want any internal effects of dynamics processing, etc. Maybe the total quantity of inputs and aux sends are the only relevant considerations, but if there are any other requirements or desires that could narrow down the options.

You also did not discuss the services or use. For example, might you have multiple services with a short time between them that require different mixer setups, say a traditional service with a contemporary service 30 minutes later? Would the mixer be used by anyone other than church tech staff, maybe by other groups that use the space? Those types of considerations may also be factors in any mixer selection.



WorshipLeaderC said:


> that is actually the board that I think we may end up going with. about 1900 is what we were quoted a couple days ago. had also considered the Alan and Heath PA 28, but not sure of the overall benefits of jumping up to the GL2400 over this one. any thoughts?


Perhaps one thing to take from this is that if you can't understand the difference then maybe there is no difference. That may sound flippant but I mean that if you don't recognize a difference then it may not be relevant to you. I often see people getting caught up in comparing details or numbers that are not relevant to how the mixer will actually be used. I remember somebody being concerned about the fact that one digital mixer option could only be expended to 128 inputs while the other could support 256 inputs which would be a valid point if you actually thought you might grow beyond 128 inputs but probably not somehng to worry about if you are going to max out well below that.

At the same time, details can sometimes matter. Yamaha and the A&H PA28 and GL2400 were noted as possible options. In the Yamaha analog console lineup you'd probably be looking at the MG32/14FX, which has four aux sends switchable pre/post-fader in pairs and two post-fader aux/FX buses. The A&H PA28 has two pre-fader (FX and AUX) and two post-fader (FB1 and FB2) aux sends. The GL2400-24 or GL2400-32 both have six aux sends switchable pre/post as 1-4 and 5-6. If someone needed two pre-fader and two post-fader aux sends then all three mixers would work, but if you needed more than four aux sends total or more than two pre or two post sends then that would eliminate the PA28. In your case, the stated need for eight aux sends seems to eliminate all three models unless you could use two of the GL-2400 matrix mixes in lieu of two aux sends.


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## Chris15 (Jan 17, 2013)

museav said:


> The A&H PA28 has two pre-fader (FX and AUX) and two post-fader (FB1 and FB2) aux sends



Or even the other way around 
FB1 and FB2 are pre fade, AUX and FX are post fade


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## Footer (Jan 17, 2013)

The A&H is a good console. We have the 2800 in our smaller room and it sounds pretty great. 

However, I would take a look at the X32 before you go analog. 1900 for a 32 channel console is great... but your still lacking gates, compressors, effects processors, and graphic EQ's. All things that are included in all digital consoles. A handful of comps and gates will easily run you up to the price of the X32, let alone a decent graphic EQ and a few effects processors. The X32 is a rather fast console to work on after you get the hang of it. 

Not saying that analog is not the way to go here, but it does have some huge advantages when it comes to the pocket book.


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## FMEng (Jan 18, 2013)

It is easy to dismiss Behringer based upon past history. But, I know some very picky professionals that have invested in the X32 and love the thing.


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## museav (Jan 18, 2013)

Chris15 said:


> Or even the other way around
> FB1 and FB2 are pre fade, AUX and FX are post fade


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## Footer (Jan 18, 2013)

FMEng said:


> It is easy to dismiss Behringer based upon past history. But, I know some very picky professionals that have invested in the X32 and love the thing.



We have used it with some living legends who had no issue with it...

Though in an FOH situation it does not sound as good as our heritage, but it will sound as good as any analog console in your budget.


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## gafftaper (Jan 19, 2013)

Footer said:


> 900 for a 32 channel console is great... but your still lacking gates, compressors, effects processors, and graphic EQ's. All things that are included in all digital consoles. A handful of comps and gates will easily run you up to the price of the X32, let alone a decent graphic EQ and a few effects processors.



This is a really important point. Do you already have the extra processing gear (EQ, reverb, compressor, etc) or will you be buying those as well. If you would be buying those processing products as well, a digital console makes much more sense financially as those features will built into the console. Many people only see the higher price of a digital console and don't consider all the additional features that will be built into that console. When you start adding things at $300 to $500 each the price can shoot up fast.


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## museav (Jan 19, 2013)

gafftaper said:


> This is a really important point. Do you already have the extra processing gear (EQ, reverb, compressor, etc) or will you be buying those as well. If you would be buying those processing products as well, a digital console makes much more sense financially as those features will built into the console. Many people only see the higher price of a digital console and don't consider all the additional features that will be built into that console. When you start adding things at $300 to $500 each the price can shoot up fast.


A very good point and it is nice to have all that processing if you need it and know how to use it, however it can also become counterproductive if overused or used improperly.


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## chausman (Jan 19, 2013)

museav said:


> A very good point and it is nice to have all that processing if you need it and know how to use it, however it can also become counterproductive if overused or used improperly.



Some may argue that having a console with those features, however rudimentary they may be, is a great way to learn how/when to use those features, before spending thousands on outboard gear to support it. (Although that might be more important in an educational setting compared to a church)


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## museav (Jan 20, 2013)

chausman said:


> Some may argue that having a console with those features, however rudimentary they may be, is a great way to learn how/when to use those features, before spending thousands on outboard gear to support it. (Although that might be more important in an educational setting compared to a church)


Just another one of those issues with advantages and disadvantages depending on the situation.


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## TimmyP1955 (Feb 3, 2013)

I like mixing bands on a Presonus just fine. I would not want to do anything on it that requires fast scene changes (presets for specific songs) as using fast scenes does not work well (or works well but is a nuisance).

I've not mixed on the X32 but I've fondled it a bit and I think I'd like it for either use (once I confirm that fast scene changes work OK if I need that).

The GLD is nice, but I recall reading about a problem with scenes (unverified) - it's also a lot more expensive, but that includes digital stage boxes.

Similarly priced is the Roland 480. I've never seen one in the flesh - it seems to have a nice feature set - save for the proprietary communication protocol.

About the same price is the Midas Pro1. Pros (sound) and Cons (some lack of facility).

Priced in-between is the LS9. For the money it's lacking in features, though it could be nicely improved via a firmware upgrade (that I've been hoping for a couple years on now). These days I can't see getting one unless it's a used one for say $5500 - and even then I might go for an X32 (for $5500 one could almost get an X32 and a spare!).


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## sounddad (Feb 3, 2013)

Have you looked at Midas Venice? It is also a great analog mixer, comes with 16, 24 or 32 channels, and has a firewire interface, which will allow you also to connect to a computer without any more cards or special interfaces.
The quality of the mixer is excellent.


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