# Digital Console with Scene Fading or Crossfading



## robmerow (May 3, 2016)

I'm working on pricing out a sound system for a small theater looking for a "low-end" digital console. (Budget is less than $3000). They need 30 inputs, 8 outputs. Virtual scribbles would be a plus. 

I'm having trouble finding any consoles (even beyond this budget) that allow a fade time between audio scenes. They also need more than 100 scenes (a limitation that is pretty common, which surprised me, having never looked into it much). SI Impact seem to fit the bill minus the crossfading.

My question is what is the lowest cost way of getting this amount of inputs, 200+ scenes, and scene crossfading? So far the cheapest way I've found to do it would be a used LS9 (seem to go for about $3500 used). Surely there must be something less long in the tooth that has this feature? Does the TF claim this feature?

Thank you, kindly.


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## themuzicman (May 3, 2016)

I don't know of any budget digital console that has that many cues AND crossfade. The X32 can do more than enough cues, but doesn't have Crossfade. I haven't used the TF series desks, but you can always download the Offline editor to see if it has the features you need. 

My best advice would be to get an X32 for the I/O, or a second-hand Yamaha desk (like the LS9), and use QLab Pro or Palladium and use MIDI to get your crossfades. 

Can I ask what you need that many scenes with crossfade for? I generally off-load all of my cross-fade work to whatever my playback device is, or if it's live mics (the few times I let a machine control the crossfade) I offload that to MIDI.


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## robmerow (May 4, 2016)

Thank you.
For scene count, I like to setup theater shows such that all mutes/unmutes are cue/scene based recalls. The theater has skilled users who setup the shows during tech week, but often less-experienced volunteers to run them in the following weeks of the runs. I've found it's much easier to teach someone to hit go many times following a script than to do any sort of mute/unmute. 100 cues is enough for most shows, but I can see some musicals requiring more.

The crossfade is not a must, I just want to see if it is an option that is out there. Mainly to use as glorified mute scenes. If the operator is half a second late hitting go, I'd much rather hear a 1 second fade as a mic comes on mid-sentence than a hard unmute.


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## NickVon (May 4, 2016)

robmerow said:


> Thank you.
> For scene count, I like to setup theater shows such that all mutes/unmutes are cue/scene based recalls. The theater has skilled users who setup the shows during tech week, but often less-experienced volunteers to run them in the following weeks of the runs. I've found it's much easier to teach someone to hit go many times following a script than to do any sort of mute/unmute. 100 cues is enough for most shows, but I can see some musicals requiring more.
> 
> The crossfade is not a must, I just want to see if it is an option that is out there. Mainly to use as glorified mute scenes. If the operator is half a second late hitting go, I'd much rather hear a 1 second fade as a mic comes on mid-sentence than a hard unmute.



Some thoughts for you.
I think the Crossfade is less essential then you think. I have an LS9 in space and I've never used the crossfade features for Scene Recall/Go Button use. I usually set my cues in the console so that a quick change of actors entering/exiting as 2 clicks if needed. One cue for the in's and the second for the outs for anytime where there is entering /exiting with in quick succession or at the same time. Mic on cues can always be done a couple of lines before they the actor is needed so if the board ops are missing on cues maybe the cueing just needs to be a littler earlier? I had some time to play with an X32/M32 and they are pretty solid for their price point. They are not a super flexible routing wise compared to higher end consoles. I think with the X32 series people are best of using the Local IO and an analogue snake. (opinion offered with out the question being asked ) The Yahama TR looks solid, but it's price point is a bit outside what you've specified, but I think you'll be happy with it no matter what.

In the same gambit, Sound Craft has released the Performer 3, that with some digging might be had at your price point through a generous local dealer.


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## FMEng (May 5, 2016)

NickVon said:


> I think with the X32 series people are best of using the Local IO and an analogue snake. (opinion offered with out the question being asked )



That doesn't make sense to me. I've used my X32 in a variety of ways, from using a pair of S16 stage boxes, to taking feeds from another X32 in a dual console setup, to using an Audinate Dante network via the option card. The digital stage boxes work exceedingly well and there are choices in form factor and size. 

There are only two qualifications I can add. The AES50 connection requires shielded, ruggedized, Cat5e cable with ethercon connectors. The ethercon shell is integral to the cable shield grounding. Making compromises there will result in a less reliable system. Every time I've heard about stage box issues, it has been due to improper cables and/or mis-handling. Secondly, routing inputs in groups of 8 can be a restriction in some circumstances.


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## NickVon (May 6, 2016)

FMEng said:


> That doesn't make sense to me. I've used my X32 in a variety of ways, from using a pair of S16 stage boxes, to taking feeds from another X32 in a dual console setup, to using an Audinate Dante network via the option card. The digital stage boxes work exceedingly well and there are choices in form factor and size.
> 
> There are only two qualifications I can add. The AES50 connection requires shielded, ruggedized, Cat5e cable with ethercon connectors. The ethercon shell is integral to the cable shield grounding. Making compromises there will result in a less reliable system. Every time I've heard about stage box issues, it has been due to improper cables and/or mis-handling. Secondly, routing inputs in groups of 8 can be a restriction in some circumstances.



Yes I see what you are saying. I'm dialing it down to flexiblity. because you have to patch the "digital" or "local I/o" in blocks of 8. So If I want to use use the rented wireless rack on stage of 16 channels, but my House 4 situated in the booth, I loose out 4 channels at any other stage box on the deck.


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## FMEng (May 6, 2016)

Yes, it is a limitation, but it actually happens pretty rarely in typical setups. If some of the booth sources are line level, mapping the six, local, aux inputs to input channels makes it a non-issue. In many other ways, the X32 is far more capable than the competition near its price range. The low end Soundcraft's don't come close, although they probably have a friendlier UI for less skilled users.


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## robmerow (May 9, 2016)

For anyone's future reference searching this topic. Here's currently available "mid priced" consoles I've found to do crossfading (though none under $3,000).
-LS9
-M7CL
-A&H GLD
-Midas Pro1
-Yamaha CL & QL


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## MrX (May 10, 2016)

robmerow said:


> For anyone's future reference searching this topic. Here's currently available "mid priced" consoles I've found to do crossfading (though none under $3,000).
> -LS9
> -M7CL
> -A&H GLD
> ...



Yamaha 01V96/02R96 as well. 01V96i is under US$3000.00


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## robmerow (Oct 18, 2019)

Yamaha just added scene crossfade feature to the TF.


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## NickVon (Oct 26, 2019)

I presume you all chose a console years ago. What did you end up going with and why? We would love to know.


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## robmerow (Nov 15, 2019)

We ended up going Soundcraft SI Impact. For the price its the best bang for buck in terms of inputs 72 inputs for >$2500. The "regrets" are no crossfading, rare updates, and a touchscreen/menu experience that gives PTSD flashbacks to 1999 car GPS.


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## Jay Ashworth (Nov 15, 2019)

I've been following the A&H SQ-5/6/7 series people lately, and they're all overjoyed with the board, though it doesn't do crossfade either. Not sure about scene count, though.


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## TimMc (Nov 19, 2019)

robmerow said:


> We ended up going Soundcraft SI Impact. For the price its the best bang for buck in terms of inputs 72 inputs for >$2500. The "regrets" are no crossfading, rare updates, and a touchscreen/menu experience that gives PTSD flashbacks to 1999 car GPS.



Oy. I just had a UI flashback... the new Behringer "Wing" console was announced and it has 4 arrow buttons and a scroll wheel... just when I thought I'd forgotten the Yammy 02R/01v.


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## robmerow (Nov 21, 2019)

Allen & Heath Avantis also added to this list of consoles with cross fading.


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## Dionysus (Dec 3, 2019)

Jay Ashworth said:


> I've been following the A&H SQ-5/6/7 series people lately, and they're all overjoyed with the board, though it doesn't do crossfade either. Not sure about scene count, though.


Indeed I have an SQ, it does not crossfade. Just like the GLD and such, it handles 300 scenes.
And yes the Avantis in replacing the GLD also has a fade option on scene recall, even if it had been released when I bought the SQ it would of been too expensive. Really is one of the few features I wish the SQ had.


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## Jammer (Dec 3, 2019)

The SQ also doesn't have DCA follow. Hoping that shows up in an update soon.


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## TimmyP1955 (Dec 8, 2019)

Ancient thread but: No way an LS9-32 is worth more than $1500 - we (theater) bought a church M7CL-48 for $2000. And the only reason I'd consider an LS9 is that it has the capability of so many scenes. Otherwise I'd prefer an X32, and using both snippets and scenes might get the job done.


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## Jay Ashworth (Dec 9, 2019)

FMEng said:


> Yes, it is a limitation, but it actually happens pretty rarely in typical setups. If some of the booth sources are line level, mapping the six, local, aux inputs to input channels makes it a non-issue. In many other ways, the X32 is far more capable than the competition near its price range. The low end Soundcraft's don't come close, although they probably have a friendlier UI for less skilled users.


I am told that they've found a way to bypass the 8-block in the newest x32 firmware, 3.0? 4.0?


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## macsound (Dec 9, 2019)

Jammer said:


> The SQ also doesn't have DCA follow. Hoping that shows up in an update soon.


What is DCA follow?


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## TimMc (Dec 10, 2019)

Jay Ashworth said:


> I am told that they've found a way to bypass the 8-block in the newest x32 firmware, 3.0? 4.0?


v 4.x

It's kind of a kludge, but it works. If I understand it correctly you can create "user input banks" - two, I think, of 40 signals (local or AES50) - that can come from any connected i/o device, and those are then assigned for processing in blocks of 8. I've downloaded it but have not installed it yet. There was an anecdotal report of X32 reverting to the v1.x "slow faders" with a rumoured preference setting that nobody was able to find. I'm waiting to hear reports of restored fader speed. Hmmm. I have an X32 Rack, which has no faders... might have to give it a try.


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