# Suggestions for video projectors?



## JLNorthGA (Jul 4, 2013)

The distance from the light booth window to the rear of the proscenium opening is about 52'. The light booth counter is a bit higher up than the mid point of the proscenium opening. The proscenium opening is 30' W x 16' H.

I've been asked to price video projectors for our space. I have no objection to placing the video projector in the audience space as I can easily run power and signal to the projector. I doubt as if we are going to be showing movies (but I could be wrong). Basically they want to hook it up to computers and show various things. I understand the the HD video projectors cost into the $10,000+ range. I'd rather not spend that. Any suggestions?


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## techieman33 (Jul 4, 2013)

Unless your going to be using it often you would be much better off renting. And if you do decide to buy your local A/V company would be much more able to help you spec a projector that we can be.


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## len (Jul 4, 2013)

52' is a pretty decent distance, so a 10K projector is a minimum, and probably more like 15 - 20K lumens range. Those size projectors are fairly large. Don't count on letting it sit on a ledge. You're going to need a shelf minimum 2' x 2' and able to support 75#.

As for the keystone you'll get, that's not a big deal. It can be adjusted via the projector. At that distance you should be more concerned with brightness.

Is there no way to get it to around 35' and hang it? I'm assuming rear projection is out of the question.

And yes, you probably should be looking into renting unless it's being used often.


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## Footer (Jul 4, 2013)

What size screen? What sized content? A projector capable of rear projecting a 9x12 (or front if you put the projector in the house) can be bought for 5k. It will be good enough for a powerpoint presentation. This is another situation where you need to ask the powers that be who want the thing what they want to do with it. This is also one of those items that we rent back to clients by the day and is not included in the theater rental.


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## MarfaLights (Jul 4, 2013)

Wait until you get a price for a 30' x 16' retractable screen! We throw about 55' to a screen 18'x10' using an older 7000 lumen 3-chip DLP Panasonic. It was $25k about 7 years ago. The special lens to give you the required screen size at the required throw adds a pretty penny. We'll be upgrading in the next year and plan to spend the same if not more. 

On the other hand, I just bought a couple of 4000 lumen single-chip DLP projectors last year for $500 each off Craigslist, both 5-6 years old and originally $6k-10k. These are too big to be considered portable but have excellent optics for medium-range throw as in a large conference room. You can find some bargains on last generation projectors because they are frequently too big for consumer use.

Head over to Projectors, Projector Reviews, LCD Projectors, Home Theater DLP Projectors at ProjectorCentral.com and start researching new and old projectors until you find something that fits the venue and budget.


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## JLNorthGA (Jul 4, 2013)

techieman33 said:


> Unless your going to be using it often you would be much better off renting. And if you do decide to buy your local A/V company would be much more able to help you spec a projector that we can be.



I wonder if they will rent long distance - there are no local A/V companies - last time we borrowed one from a church - and I'd rather not do that too often. Not to mention it wasn't very good. The good ones are mounted up near the ceiling - this one was an old cast-off.


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## JLNorthGA (Jul 4, 2013)

Footer said:


> What size screen? What sized content? A projector capable of rear projecting a 9x12 (or front if you put the projector in the house) can be bought for 5k. It will be good enough for a powerpoint presentation. This is another situation where you need to ask the powers that be who want the thing what they want to do with it. This is also one of those items that we rent back to clients by the day and is not included in the theater rental.



Need to get a screen. I've been pricing Da-lite screens of medium sizes (18 x 10) to smaller sizes (12 x 9).

The general idea is to use it for video presentations and possibly showing movies.


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## museav (Jul 5, 2013)

len said:


> 52' is a pretty decent distance, so a 10K projector is a minimum, and probably more like 15 - 20K lumens range. Those size projectors are fairly large. Don't count on letting it sit on a ledge. You're going to need a shelf minimum 2' x 2' and able to support 75#.
> 
> As for the keystone you'll get, that's not a big deal. It can be adjusted via the projector. At that distance you should be more concerned with brightness.


Apparently some misunderstanding as the projector output required is a function of the image size, ambient light levels and application, however it is typically not directly related to the throw distance. The common issue here is it being the image size that is directly relevant to the resulting image brightness rather than how far away the projector is in order to create that image size.

My first step is usually to determine the desired image format. Whether 4:3, 16:10, 16:9 or whatever, you usually want to select the screen and native projector format that will best support your intended uses. If your primary use is PowerPoint, etc. from older laptops then 4:3 may be appropriate while if the focus is on movie nights and newer laptops then widescreen 16:9 or 16:10 formats may serve you better.

Along with the general image format is the native resolution. Do you want or need to display higher resolution images such as 1080p HD or would 720p HD and perhaps even lower resolutions suffice? And keep in mind that while a lower resolution projector may degrade higher resolution content, a higher resolution projector is not necessarily going to make lower resolution content look better, in fact it can be counterproductive.

You also want an image size that will work for the space and applications. The image size is usually driven by the image height required for the applications planned and the viewing distances involved, which then combined with the image format gives the overall image size. It's pretty easy to envision that everyone being able to clearly read a Word document, spreadsheet or CAD drawing might require a larger image than some basic graphics or larger font text.

Once you have the image size then you need to think of the image contrast desired for your applications and how ambient light on the screeen may affect that and thus the image brightness required. More critical viewing and/or higher ambient light levels usually require a brighter image. Cinemas typically actually get away with quite low image brightness levels compared to classrooms and many other spaces due simply to the difference in the image brightness compared to the related ambient light levels that define 'black' in the projected image.

Assuming the furthest viewers are close to the 52' distance noted and an intended multipurpose use, I might typically look at around a 8.5' to 9' high, 16:10 format image and maybe a minimum 6500 lumens. That would mean something like Find Projectors By Feature with the optional lens noted, which for the projector and lens would probably be in the $8k range for 1280x720 resolution and $11k for the 1920x1200 resolution versions. But that is just for some general reference, you'll want to look at your specific situation as you might need something more or much less for your specific situation.


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## headcrab (Jul 5, 2013)

I'm going to assume that the screen sizes mentioned (9x12) are feet.

In our space we use a 4000 lumen 4:3 projector, at a 30' throw, onto a 200" screen (10x13.333). Greatest viewing distance is about 65' feet, and the image is still perfectly good. Naturally this is subjective, but it works very well for us. Unfortunately the lights in that space (the gym) are 400W metal halide, so we have to turn them all off to get a good image.

The projector (Epson VS410) is currently $860 from newegg.com

This also won't work if you want 16:9 or 16:10


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## MNicolai (Jul 5, 2013)

To give you an understanding of how I would specify a projector and screen for a project, I have a spreadsheet I use that inputs the following:

+ Image Height
+ Aspect Ratio
+ Horizontal Screen Resolution
+ Screen Surface Gain
+ Target Contrast Ratio (usually a minimum of 10:1 for Screen-Brightness:Ambient-Light)
+ Ambient Light (usually 2-3fc for a dark theater, 8-10fc for a classroom with the shades closed and no direct light on the screen)
+ Throw Distance

and calculates:

+ Image Height
+ Image Area
+ Required Luminance off of Screen
+ Required Illuminance onto Screen
+ Required Projector Brightness in Lumens
+ Throw Ratio for Lens

I've also got it factoring in handicaps such as:

+ Light Loss in Lens
+ Light Loss due to Degradation of Lamp Over Time

There are a lot of factors and a handful of formulae that go into selecting a screen and a projector. It's not exactly rocket science, but beware of people who start throwing out model numbers or stating how many lumens you need. Avoid design-by-spaghetti -- people throwing something at the wall and seeing what sticks.

As a general rule, I try to stick with the 1w4h and 1w6h rules for selecting a screen size -- there's also a 1w8h rule, but we try to avoid that. These rules are that 1 times width of the image is as close as the nearest viewer should be, so for a 30' wide screen, the first row is ideally 30' from the screen. Then the 4h, 6h, and 8h are that:

+ 4 times the height of the screen is the distance from the screen for the farthest viewer in an "Inspection Viewing" application
+ 6 times the height of the screen is the distance from the screen for the farthest viewer in a "Detailed Viewing" application
+ 8 times the height of the screen is the distance from the screen for the farthest viewer in a "General Viewing" application

The farthest viewer ideally being the people sitting in the back row.

The reason I say we avoid the 1w8h rule, which would be for something like film-viewing is that in theaters, sometimes it'll be General Viewing, but other times a presenter may want to put a presentation on the screen that would be considered Detailed Viewing or Inspection Viewing. For those cases, we begin with the 1w4h and 1w6h rules, and if we need to free up space in the budget, we go the 1w8h. 1w8h means a smaller screen, which is less expensive, and a smaller screen means a smaller image area, which means a dimmer projector is necessary to illuminate the screen sufficiently.

An example of how not to choose a projector and screen -- we recently had a client request a 30' wide screen. They decided on 30' wide somewhat arbitrarily, but we didn't baulk at it because for their room it happened to perfectly place the front row at the 1w nearest viewer location, and the back row perflectly at the 6h farthest viewer position. They had been using a 20' wide and renting a 7000lm projector. The 30' wide screen more than doubles their image size from the 20' screen, so now to fill the screen and maintain an equivalent brightness, they need a minimum 16,000lm projector. I always thought the 7000lm they were renting was a tad dark, so I'd go as far as to say they should go to an 18,000lm or 20,000lm projector instead of just the 16,000lm to be equivalent. Projectors of that class are more expensive, louder, heavier, require a 208v-240v power source instead of 120v, and are harder to come by in the rental market.

I looked into regional rental rates at one of only two companies in the state we know of has projectors of that size -- their decision to go with a 30' wide screen raised their rental fees for 3-day rental (which the local rental companies consider a week-long rental) for a weekend film viewing from $600 to $6000. I estimate they raised the installation price of the projector and video system infrastructure for their future video system from $60k to $120k. Ten times the rental rate, twice the install rate. Bigger may be better, but you'll pay dearly to get it in ways that are not always apparent when you order a screen.

If you want to contact me via PM, I'd be happy to put together some pricing for you on this. Don't know that'll be much cheaper than if you order something online, but I'd highly recommend ordering something like this from an audiovisual dealer instead of a website. There's a good enough chance you'll get a better deal, and you'll definitely get better service for things like warranty and repairs. You'll also get a better discussion and determination of which features and items are appropriate for your application.


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## JLNorthGA (Jul 5, 2013)

At these price points, I'm beginning to wonder if it is even worth considering. At $4-5K, I can find or get enough grant money. At $10+K - no way. The one granting agency that dealt with money in that range has closed their doors.


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## MNicolai (Jul 5, 2013)

I'd recommend you find out what you want ideally and how much it costs, then find a way to grant-write for it. It's possible you can do the screen in one purchase, the projector in another. If you show you've done your due diligence in the grant-writing process, you may have more luck receiving a grant because grant approval committees look more favorably to those who have carefully laid out how they'd use the money.

Alternatively, you could do the screen and rent the projector. If you do rentals, you may even be able to justify the expense of a projector by being able to bring in more presentation-type rental events.

I used to volunteer at a community theater that after 3-4 years of operation received every grant they applied for, including $20k for "Market Development", which by the time they received the grant, the person who wrote for it was long gone so the person who was handed the check had not a clue what "Market Development" meant but was told they had one year to find a way to spend the money on "qualifying expenses".

Grant money is out there. It's not always as accessible to some as it is to others, but I've found if you're a non-profit, can illustrate you've performed due diligence in your planning of purchasing and improvements, and can connect the dots between what you're writing for and a) the betterment of your community, b) an increased revenue stream, c) educational benefits, and/or d) an increased ability to deliver the arts to your area, you're in a good position to be eligible for grants.


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## museav (Jul 8, 2013)

JLNorthGA said:


> At these price points, I'm beginning to wonder if it is even worth considering. At $4-5K, I can find or get enough grant money. At $10+K - no way. The one granting agency that dealt with money in that range has closed their doors.


Just keep in mind that while there are related guidelines and recommendations, there are no related rules and acceptability of projected images is very subjective.

I still remember when InfoComm was in town for a 'roundtable' session and one of the topics was what later became the projected image contrast ratio standard. The related discussion got rather spirited when it was noted that the image they were using to present the idea of a proposed image contrast standard fell far short of the guidelines already supported and yet while not ideal, certainly seemed to work for the purpose. In classes the next few days they found that the images they used also did not actually meet the criteria they were teaching. That seemed to support that trying to standardize desired performance can be very useful for design purposes but is not viable for defining acceptable results when that determination is subjective and can involve many factors including budget.


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## marmer (Jul 8, 2013)

Don't forget about fan noise if you are going to have the projector in the space. We do a lot of lecture recitals and video during concerts, and it's pretty important when possible to keep the projector in the booth. When it's not possible, if you have it on when the audience enters (or any other normally intrusive continuous sound, like an organ blower) you can sometimes get away with a lot of ambient noise.


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## ruinexplorer (Jul 12, 2013)

Another thing to consider is maintenance cost on the projector you purchase. Some companies are currently offering free lamps for the life of the warranty (I think DPI is offering one per year for the three year warranty), but I don't know if that is on any models you would be considering. Some of the newer lamp free projectors are getting considerably brighter (though still in the 4-5000 lumen range) which may qualify you for some of the "green" grants. Also, depending on how you use your projector, you may be able to get away with cheaper technology like LCD or single chip DLP. If you plan on using it a lot, you will probably want to go towards 3-chip DLP or a variant of LCOS which will provide a better image for longer as LCD will discolor with age and the color wheel on a single chip DLP has a tendency to fail (not to mention the rainbow effect for your action movies). 

If you have to buy used, many of the 4:3 aspect ratio screens are hitting the used market for fairly reasonable prices due to being replaced by wide aspect screens. If you get a screen larger than you need and are using it for rear projection, you can add masking to get it to the appropriate aspect ratio. I believe that many of the screen manufacturers offer an attachment for the bottom skirt to be mounted in a higher position than the bottom of the screen (I purchased one from Draper). If you can afford the new screen, I would purchase an appropriate wide format screen and then use masking if you need to make it 4:3.


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## museav (Jul 13, 2013)

ruinexplorer said:


> If you have to buy used, many of the 4:3 aspect ratio screens are hitting the used market for fairly reasonable prices due to being replaced by wide aspect screens.


Many schools, colleges and universities are replacing the existing 4:3 screens on campus with widescreen format screens whenever they update rooms and with many classrooms, conference rooms and lecture halls on campus they can quickly ended up with more old 4:3 screens in attic stock than they can use. Public institutions can't usually put them on e-Bay or anything like that or directly donate them but they may be able to let you know when they will go to auction or when they plan to 'remove them from inventory' and what dumpster they'll be in.


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