# Live concert lighting with conventionals and an ETC Express



## Eriksrocks (Nov 28, 2011)

Hi guys, my high school is doing our annual "rock concert" this Friday where a bunch of student bands get together and perform. I've been designing lighting for the past couple of years but am by no means an expert, and I was wondering if I could get your advice and tips/tricks on how to best control/improv concert lighting live given that our rig will be almost all conventionals and we only have an Express 48/96. 

In past years I basically just re-gelled what lighting we had left from our fall musical, but this year I want to make it look as good as possible. I'm probably going to divide the stage into 4 general areas in a diamond formation, with two colors of backlight from fresnels and S4 PARnels for each area, then the rest of the (2nd) electric will be filled with 19 degree S4's aimed DS in random directions to give that "concert" feel without the moving lights (we do have a hazer). I'll probably have more ellipsoidals on 1st aimed down and/or out into the house, as well as some toplight and frontlight for US, and then probably just general washes on the catwalks. Plus a ton of sidelight and maybe a couple of S4 PAR's on the deck for effect. 

Anyways I'm mainly looking for advice on how to best control all of this live. Given that I don't know any of the music or the order that the bands will be performing in (i.e. no set list), programming to the music is out of the question. I will have to improv it all live. In past years this usually meant picking a primary backlight color, setting levels for a song, and then just slowly fading between two backlight submasters or something similar. Pretty lame and not at all that 'concert' feel. This year we've got a Radiance Hazer so I want to try something more ambitious and get that 'rock concert'/club feel even though we don't have movers. I'm assuming it would be extremely difficult if not impossible to improv a complex lighting design to the timing of the song without ever hearing the music, so what's the best way to fake it? I want the lighting to look as complex as possible without me having to rapidly bump subs and fixtures to each beat as I'm trying to guess how the song is going to progress. It needs to be relatively easy to control, but I still want to be able to adapt to the tone/pace of the song, if that makes sense. 

Anyone have experience with doing this on an Express or a board like it? Any tips or tricks? I have ~20 subs available to me, so would the best method be to designate 3-5 subs for general area washes and then program effects into the rest that I can fade up and down or bump as needed? So for example one sub would be "ellipsoidals slow moving fades" and then another would be "ellipsoidals chase" and then another would be "ellipsoidals fast chase" and then maybe "purple backlight forward chase", "purple backlight reverse chase", "purple backlight random strobe" etc. Hopefully you get the idea. My only concern is whether I would be able to find and use these fast enough to improv and keep up with the music. Would programming effects into cues be useful at all?

I guess my biggest fear is trying to improv and "guess" a moment in the song and being wrong and then the lighting is just awkward or off beat.

How do small clubs typically do this? Do they just run a few standard chases regardless of the song, is there a board op that is constantly improvising with the band, do they use a controller that activates the chase with the beat, etc? I can understand how maybe a random chase between lots of lights in close proximity would work in a small club, but this is a stage with a proscenium that's 46' x 33', electrics will probably be about 30' in the air - I want as much of the full concert lighting feel as possible and as you can imagine a random chase between all the fixtures probably isn't going to look that good.

Anyways I apologize for the wall of text and any advice you can give would be greatly appreciated! Thanks! 

- Erik


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## soundman (Nov 28, 2011)

Eriksrocks said:


> Anyone have experience with doing this on an Express or a board like it? Any tips or tricks? I have ~20 subs available to me, so would the best method be to designate 3-5 subs for general area washes and then program effects into the rest that I can fade up and down or bump as needed? So for example one sub would be "ellipsoidals slow moving fades" and then another would be "ellipsoidals chase" and then another would be "ellipsoidals fast chase" and then maybe "purple backlight forward chase", "purple backlight reverse chase", "purple backlight random strobe" etc. Hopefully you get the idea. My only concern is whether I would be able to find and use these fast enough to improv and keep up with the music. Would programming effects into cues be useful at all?
> 
> I guess my biggest fear is trying to improv and "guess" a moment in the song and being wrong and then the lighting is just awkward or off beat.
> 
> - Erik



Sounds like you'll be busking the show. I'm sure this has been talked about before but here is another take on it. 

Well you have 240 sub masters, not ~20. They are on different pages but that's ok. You also have 96 faders for direct access. That is a lot more power than some LDs had 25 years ago and they could create some good shows so don't think you are limited by technology. 

Think about your patching to make the most of the 96 fades. If you patch your floor effects to channels 49 through 52 you keep the bump buttons near the submasters and should be able to bump through the floor lights for accents easily. If you patch down as much as possible you will save alot of subs. You might be able to get away with all the band front lights on one channel, run it at 60% and forget about it. You won't be able to predict a solo anyway so let the spots cover it. 

Think about how you can structure the subs to get the most bang for you buck. Are there any looks you have to have on every page? Perhaps house lights for an emergency (if they are on DMX and if they can't be patched down) perhaps a set change look and a general wash for MCs. That leaves you with 20 subs for the acts. 

If it were me I would try and come up with 6 pages with subs broken down into 2 groups of three. Fast songs and slow songs, chances are you will be able to tell from the band name or look what style they are going to be. I would do 2 pages of looks and then a 'best of page' with your favorites from each. This way you won't use all you looks with the first act leaving the rest of the show to be repetitive. 

I would do 10-15 looks to fade between and have the rest be chases. But to each his own. 

As far as running the show - At least each song needs one look. A slow song might look best with just a nice static look. Never be afraid to set and forget. The next level of complexity is a look for the verse and a look for the chorus. Just build on that as you get comfortable with the music. start hitting accents and being able to anticipate changes. Invite the lead singer's girlfriend into the booth with you, she will be a great help as she will know all the music. If the lead singer isn't in a relationship there is a good chance the lighting won't be able to save the band //mild sarcasm. Expect alot of covers, which will be helpful. And listen to the sound check if there is one, it will allow you to get a feel for what will be coming at you later.


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## Eriksrocks (Nov 28, 2011)

soundman said:


> Sounds like you'll be busking the show. I'm sure this has been talked about before but here is another take on it.
> 
> Well you have 240 sub masters, not ~20. They are on different pages but that's ok. You also have 96 faders for direct access. That is a lot more power than some LDs had 25 years ago and they could create some good shows so don't think you are limited by technology.
> 
> ...


 
Thanks! That actually helps a lot! I guess I forgot about changing pages. I thought I wouldn't have time to do it mid-song, but it makes a lot more sense to make a "fast" page, a "slow" page, etc.


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## Pie4Weebl (Nov 28, 2011)

I'm gonna 2nd SoundMan's suggestion that you should not be afraid to just have a static look sometimes, remember you're not being paid by the cue! And by having some songs with less than others, it makes your bigger looks seem even bigger.


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## derekleffew (Nov 28, 2011)

I forget (if I ever knew) can one put effects on subs on the Express? Is the effects package the same/similar to the Expression 3? I usually program a boatload of chases: fast/slow, bright/dim, single color/multi-color, all the various groupings of the rig I can think of. Know what all the effects attributes (negative, reverse, build, bounce, random, etc.) do. I find myself editing chase attributes in blind during the show. Turning some OFF and others ON makes it into a whole different chase. Bump buttons are great, but once you start, you've pretty much committed yourself for the entire song--you can't stop midway though.

Eriksrocks, hopefully you have at least one followspot and competent operator(s). Let them do their thing--they keep the "talent" lit. You might want to call blackout s and restore s at ends of songs. Otherwise, just tell them to "light the money."

There are some external articles referenced in the wiki entry busking. Read those; just adapt if/when they talk too much about moving lights. You think busking conventionals is hard for a band you've never seen, wait until you try it with moving lights, which MUST always be preprogrammed, at least to some extent.


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## chausman (Nov 28, 2011)

derekleffew said:


> I forget (if I ever knew) can one put effects on subs on the Express? Is the effects package the same/similar to the Expression 3? I usually program a boatload of chases: fast/slow, bright/dim, single color/multi-color, all the various groupings of the rig I can think of. Know what all the effects attributes (negative, reverse, build, bounce, random, etc.) do. I find myself editing chase attributes in blind during the show. Turning some OFF and others ON makes it into a whole different chase.


 
Yes, you can put effects on subs on an Express. (I can't answer to how they compare to Expression 3 though) I personally found it rather finicky to set up and change the rate at first, but I'm not very patient. If you take the time to get them set up well, they do function great. The manual has a great tutorial for them, and then just play with the different attributes of the effects.


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## Eriksrocks (Nov 28, 2011)

chausman said:


> Yes, you can put effects on subs on an Express. (I can't answer to how they compare to Expression 3 though) I personally found it rather finicky to set up and change the rate at first, but I'm not very patient. If you take the time to get them set up well, they do function great. The manual has a great tutorial for them, and then just play with the different attributes of the effects.


 
I wasn't even aware that effects on the Express had attributes that you could change - I thought they were just a list of steps with programmable intervals in between. But looking at the manual it appears you are right. I guess I should read up on programming effects again.  I just wish I could put anything on any fader. 

Edit: this almost makes me want to buy a USB dongle and bring in my desktop so I can program anything I want to. But I downloaded MagicQ last week, took one look and was like NOPE NOPE NOPE (not in a week at least). Anything that's easier to use that still has enough power to do a complex show (and control movers well, since we have two really cheap scanners that I might end up using anyways)?


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## soundman (Nov 28, 2011)

Eriksrocks said:


> I wasn't even aware that effects on the Express had attributes that you could change - I thought they were just a list of steps with programmable intervals in between. But looking at the manual it appears you are right. I guess I should read up on programming effects again.  I just wish I could put anything on any fader.


 
Yea it would be great if you could treat a submaster like it's own cue stack. I would stay away from PC playback. For busking you will want as many handles as possible and on a PC you can bogged down in clicking around. 

Also don't forget a well timed mid song black out and be powerful.

Speaking of effects on an Express. How about a story. I was doing a fashion show as an automation operator and it was show day after two crazy days of load in. Not only were the days long the labor was intense. About an hour before the only rehearsal the designer shows up. He speaks perfect French but his English is not the greatest, the language issue only creates more stress. Something has him worked up and the board op can't seem to get what he wants taken care of. His request isn't to hard, he just wants the lights to pulse like they are breathing. The more the board op struggles the more frustrated the designer gets and the worse the booth vibe gets, which directly effect my day. I offer to lend a hand and bring back my 'Stage Lighting 101' knowledge and after two tries nail the effect. Much rejoicing. Moral of the story: You never know what skills you will need on any one day. By being able to master the effects on an express today in five years you might be a hero.


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## TimMiller (Nov 29, 2011)

The express is one of the best consoles for conventional concerts. What you want to do is set up some color washes to wash the entire stage. Indigo, dark blue, magenta, yellow. If you have enough put the same wash on an upstage bar to backlight the band. Then focus some specials on each performer position using your s4's. This allows you to do solo spots. Some side breakups also add cool effects. Never rely on a chase stack or effects generator. Too many ld's do and it creates a very redundant show. For ease of use keep everything on one page. Patch each of your upstage and down stage washes onto a channel. Up stage indigo on ch 1 up stage yellow on 2 etc. do the same for down stage i always put my upstage washes on the upper handles and the downstage on the ones direct below. You can also set some color combos on your subs. Also set each special on its own sub ie. drummer, bass guitar, keyboard, etc. chase the music by using the bump buttons also you can bump your color combos on your subs. Or use your subs to create a base look for the song then you have controls of your color bumps. Using upstage lighting really adds to the concert feel. Also with concert lighting I really opens up your color palette. I worked with a guy who always spec'd an etc 48/96 for conventional rigs.


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## MrsFooter (Nov 29, 2011)

Busking with a conventional rig on an ECT Express? That is my job. Seriously, I do this everyday. In the past month alone I've lit Bettye Lavette, Ray Davies (lead singer of The Kinks,) and The Doors using this setup, and everyone seemed super happy. Here's what I do.

Four top/bax systems in super saturated colors. Two high side systems, also in super saturated colors. Fudge some ACL-esque fixtures by randomly focusing some lekos. Floor units if it's calls for it. Haze if the talent allows it, but only enough to establish some beam shape.

I only use the 24 subs on Page 1. I realize that there are more available, but when I'm busking live I often have to grab at handles quickly and I find it simpler if I stay on one page. What I _do_ do, however, (hehe, I said doo-doo,) is program myself a series of looping cue stacks. For example, if I want my blue PARS (Ch 1-3, for example,) to chase, LX 1 will be Ch 1 @ FL, LX 1.1 will be Ch 2 @ FL, and LX 1.2 will be Ch 3 @ FL, with LX 1.2 linking back to LX 1. Time of 0 on everything. So instead of having to play spider fingers over your bump buttons, you're just hitting GO with the beat. I have approximately 25 of these cue stacks programmed that I use in conjunction with my subs. (Oh, and don't forget to program yourself a BO cue. Gotta give yourself a way out that doesn't snap.)

Is it a little ghetto? Mmm-yep. Is there probably a better, more sophisticated way to go about it? Probably. But this is the method that I've found that allows me the most options and flexibility while simplifying the process enough to not hurt myself, and when you're busking a show you don't know both flexibility and not hurting yourself are key. 

Whatever method you go with, a few things to never forget:

*Put light where you want it.
*Take light away from where you don't want it.
*Taking light away can be just as effective as adding light.
*Never leave the talent in the black.
*Nobody likes green.

Best of luck!


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## SteveB (Nov 29, 2011)

MrsFooter said:


> *Nobody likes green.



Not True !. Caribbean Reggae or Calypso looks great with some R94 in the Bax or L116 hi-sides.


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## Gern (Nov 29, 2011)

SteveB said:


> Not True !. Caribbean Reggae or Calypso looks great with some R94 in the Bax or L116 hi-sides.


 
yaa mon!


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## Eriksrocks (Nov 29, 2011)

MrsFooter said:


> Busking with a conventional rig on an ECT Express? That is my job. Seriously, I do this everyday. In the past month alone I've lit Bettye Lavette, Ray Davies (lead singer of The Kinks,) and The Doors using this setup, and everyone seemed super happy. Here's what I do.
> 
> Four top/bax systems in super saturated colors. Two high side systems, also in super saturated colors. Fudge some ACL-esque fixtures by randomly focusing some lekos. Floor units if it's calls for it. Haze if the talent allows it, but only enough to establish some beam shape.
> 
> ...


 
Thanks for the advice! Do you just put static groups of lights on the subs then and blend to get different looks? (i.e. gen front wash, color 1 bax, color 2 bax, color 3 high sides, color 4 high sides, etc.) Or do you have any effects on the submasters as well? I was thinking about using the cue stack to run chases and I think I'm going to now that you've recommended it - it's not that hard to just keep a finger bumping the Go button. Only thing is it would limit me to 1 chase/scene unless I create cue sets that incorporate multiple chases. Hmm...

Anyways I am finishing the plot right now and I'll post it when I am done if anyone is curious or wants to offer feedback. Thanks so much for all the help so far! Control Booth is amazing!

EDIT: What's an ACL fixture look like? The wiki entry didn't help me much on imagining what sort of beam/look it gives.


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## Eriksrocks (Nov 29, 2011)

SteveB said:


> Not True !. Caribbean Reggae or Calypso looks great with some R94 in the Bax or L116 hi-sides.


 
Not familiar with these colors (we pretty much have only Rosco in our small inventory), but one color I do wish we had is something like R370 Italian Blue. Our selection of blueish gels is currently limited to R80, R67, R55, R60, and R377 (more purple than blue, but looked awesome as backlight wash for Beauty and the Beast and I plan on keeping it in the plot as a back wash color). The R377 is probably the closest thing we have to Congo Blue.


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## chausman (Nov 29, 2011)

Eriksrocks said:


> The R377 is probably the closest thing we have to Congo Blue.


 
I believe it was Derekleffew who said something along the lines of "Every music show needs Congo Blue".


Eriksrocks said:


> I was thinking about using the cue stack to run chases and I think I'm going to now that you've recommended it - it's not that hard to just keep a finger bumping the Go button. Only thing is it would limit me to 1 chase/scene unless I create cue sets that incorporate multiple chases. Hmm...


 
If it were me, I would put different color chases on like 100s, 200s, etc. and program some macros to go to specific chases in the cue stack. If you made sure whatever the last fixture of each color was linked back to the first fixture of that color, they wouldnt start running into each other. Just a thought.


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## Eriksrocks (Nov 29, 2011)

chausman said:


> I believe it was Derekleffew who said something along the lines of "Every music show needs Congo Blue".


 
I'm not sure I really understand the infatuation with this color - isn't it so saturated that you would need *tons* of fixtures for it to be visible with anything else? 

Or is it mostly just used as back light to accent the set for set changes, in between songs, etc.?


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## drummerboi316 (Nov 29, 2011)

Eriksrocks said:


> What's an ACL fixture look like? The wiki entry didn't help me much on imagining what sort of beam/look it gives.







The white light at center is along the lines of an ACL light. A very skinny beam of light. Usually used in groups.


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## mstaylor (Nov 29, 2011)

Eriksrocks said:


> I'm not sure I really understand the infatuation with this color - isn't it so saturated that you would need *tons* of fixtures for it to be visible with anything else?
> 
> Or is it mostly just used as back light to accent the set for set changes, in between songs, etc.?


Congo blue is a great color onstage for R&R, or any kind of music. Congo and fog is incredible together. Mix it with pinks,lavs or even white and anchors the visual.


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## SteveB (Nov 29, 2011)

Eriksrocks said:


> EDIT: What's an ACL fixture look like? The wiki entry didn't help me much on imagining what sort of beam/look it gives.



ACL = AirCraft Landing (light). 28v Par64 lamp @ 600 watts ea. (typically) in a Par64 can, wired in series and hung in a cluster with 4 total fixtures in the series on a 2kw dimmer. Usually hung as a "Finger Fan" of shafts of white light, often as a pipe/truss end on L & R and a center set, or same thing on the floor. Very tight beam spread (as per the photo). Very useful for "Button" bumps at the end of a song as accent to the last cymbal crash or some such.


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## derekleffew (Nov 29, 2011)

Eriksrocks said:


> I'm not sure I really understand the infatuation with this color - isn't it so saturated that you would need *tons* of fixtures for it to be visible with anything else?


Yep, that's the point--Congo Blue is dark and rich and super-saturated. and Yes, it does require more horsepower than any other color. Perhaps twice as many narrow-beam fixtures as a regular wash, i.e., if 6 MFL lamps are used for other colors, the L181 wash would be 12 NSP lamps.

-----

For a quasi-simulated ACL effect, use the gobo "row of dots." 

Apollo MS-2291, or easily crafted by oneself
(Play with the alignment/rotation of the gobo; one reason it's a popular choice in moving lights.)


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## SteveB (Nov 29, 2011)

Eriksrocks said:


> I was thinking about using the cue stack to run chases



No. Use the cue stack to run cues, not chases. Build the equivalent of a chase step as a separate cue - I.E cue 1 as Yellow Bax, cue 2 as Orange Bax, cue 3 as Red Bax, etc.... All with a time of zero and a Link from the last cue/step back to the beginning cue. Allows manual step timing with the push of the GO button. Clear take you out.


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## Eriksrocks (Nov 29, 2011)

SteveB said:


> No. Use the cue stack to run cues, not chases. Build the equivalent of a chase step as a separate cue - I.E cue 1 as Yellow Bax, cue 2 as Orange Bax, cue 3 as Red Bax, etc.... All with a time of zero and a Link from the last cue/step back to the beginning cue. Allows manual step timing with the push of the GO button. Clear take you out.


 
Sorry, this is what I meant. Build a chase using cues and then use the cue stack to run the "chase" (which is actually multiple cues with a link to loop them). 

Anyways, if anyone is curious my rough plot is attached. 

This is kind of the effect I'm trying to get with the house-facing ellipsoidals, although I'm not quite sure where to aim them (especially the ones on 1st electric, as I don't want to blind the audience and the farthest anyone will be downstage is the line where the apron meets the rest of the stage):




Anyways any sort of feedback is welcome. Still really indecisive about a lot of things on that plot but I think the show will turn out alright.


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## Gern (Nov 29, 2011)

chausman said:


> I believe it was Derekleffew who said something along the lines of "Every music show needs Congo Blue".



From my first Rock show: I've loved 181 Congo Blue, too bad the transmission is so weak we need alot of poop.


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## derekleffew (Nov 29, 2011)

Seems many are having difficulty with the "reply to quote" feature today? If you are, start a thread in the Bug Reports area listing all details so we can work toward a remedy.
-----


chausman said:


> I believe it was derekleffew who said something along the lines of "Every music show needs Congo Blue".


What I said was,

derekleffew said:


> ... (except during ballads, 'cause everyone knows those are always supposed to be congo-blue).


and I was being (somewhat) facetious. [Should have added a , I suppose, but I'm under the impression I overuse that particular emoticon. (I know I also overuse parenthetical expressions.)]

Ballads don't ALWAYS have to be congo blue, fast songs don't always have to be bright, etc. Still there are accepted conventions/generalities in rock 'n' roll lighting, and stage lighting in general for that matter. It's rare that an LD can pull off random strobing during a slow song, but if he/she can, more power to her/him.

-----

MrsFooter said:


> ...Whatever method you go with, a few things to never forget:
> 
> *Put light where you want it.
> *Take light away from where you don't want it.
> ...


Words to live by! Along with
(From the wiki entry Lighting Concept/Lighting Statement):

> There are exactly FOUR hard and fast rules for lighting.
> (In order of importance):
> 
> 1. Don't burn down the venue.
> ...


-----

MrsFooter said:


> ... *Nobody likes green.


Perhaps that could be amended to read, "'Nobody likes green' *as facelight* [except when lighting Elphaba in _Wicked_, or Kermit the Frog]". The "compound greens": L115, L116, R73 work especially well when paired with magentas, say L113, L128, or L126. This brings us to another "rule" of rock lighting: Use non-traditional combinations of colors: chrome orange against primary blue, acid yellow against deep lavendar, flame orange paired with steel blue (as in the picture above), etc. Pairings for a rock show that would likely never fly in traditional drama.


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## esmphoto (Nov 29, 2011)

Pie4Weebl said:


> remember you're not being paid by the cue!


 
This thread is full of tons of useful pieces of info already but id say this is one of my favorites, definitely taping it to the monitor in the booth tomorrow.


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## MrsFooter (Nov 30, 2011)

Eriksrocks said:


> Thanks for the advice! Do you just put static groups of lights on the subs then and blend to get different looks? (i.e. gen front wash, color 1 bax, color 2 bax, color 3 high sides, color 4 high sides, etc.) Or do you have any effects on the submasters as well? I was thinking about using the cue stack to run chases and I think I'm going to now that you've recommended it - it's not that hard to just keep a finger bumping the Go button. Only thing is it would limit me to 1 chase/scene unless I create cue sets that incorporate multiple chases. Hmm...



My top row of subs I use for top and front specials, (separated when possible,) blinders, ACLs, hazer, and any other gak. My bottom row I use for entire systems. (IE, a Blue Bax handle, a Mag HS handle, etc.) Oh, and an "OH ****" wash, just in case. Sometimes I use the subs in conjunction with cues (ie stepping back and forth between my red and blue bax on a sub while a cue stack steps my hs from mag to teal.) But even if I don't use the subs during the song, it's a nice thing to have on handles for quick and painless access. For one, it's a nice way to get yourself out of a cue without going to black. (Bring whatever look you ended on up on the subs, clear your playback, and now you can smoothly transition to your next look without it being jarring.)

*In my personal opinion and experience,* I would stay away from the land of effects unless you are lighting a show that you know. With effects, it's really hard to change rate on the fly, so unless you know the show you're lighting, it's hard to time the lighting with the music. If you know the songs, then by all means, effect away, but when you're just trying to follow the kick for a song you've never heard before you need that human flexibility. Don't make it more complicated than it needs to be. 


derekleffew said:


> Perhaps that could be amended to read, "'Nobody likes green' *as facelight* [except when lighting Elphaba in _Wicked_, or Kermit the Frog]". The "compound greens": L115, L116, R73 work especially well when paired with magentas, say L113, L128, or L126. This brings us to another "rule" of rock lighting: Use non-traditional combinations of colors: chrome orange against primary blue, acid yellow against deep lavendar, flame orange paired with steel blue (as in the picture above), etc. Pairings for a rock show that would likely never fly in traditional drama.



R73 is actually part of my rep plot! It's one of my favorite rock and roll colors _because_ it's close to green but still kind to most skin tones. (Try it with R27. Now that's some sexy lighting!) The thing you have to watch with an R94 is that it tends to make any non-Caucasians look kind-of grayish. And even if _you_ know how to use it without making your talent look like they're going to blow chunks on their shoes, there's something about primary green that makes people nervous. Many the rider has crossed my desk that has only two requirements for lighting: No blackouts and no green. 

Hope we're helpful!


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## sk8rsdad (Nov 30, 2011)

MrsFooter said:


> R73 is actually part of my rep plot! It's one of my favorite rock and roll colors _because_ it's close to green but still kind to most skin tones. (Try it with R27. Now that's some sexy lighting!)



Or blend 73 with 344 Follies Pink for a "white" light that makes costumes uber-vibrant.


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## Esoteric (Nov 30, 2011)

Also, know your limitations. You CAN do just about anything on an express (I ran a mixed rig on one for bands I never heard of with an hour rehearsal to get a feel for their music), but you have know what you can do within your skill level.

Personally I use multiple pages even in the same song, and I don't shy away from using the cue stacks. But to each their own.

As far as certain colors, I use every color out there (except for Rosco's brown and gray gels, never found a use for those), it is all about knowing how to use them. I had two green systems in my live music rig, a top and a high side and I used green from my movers all the time. I love the gritty, urban feel of a green/amber combination.


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## MrsFooter (Nov 30, 2011)

Esoteric said:


> Also, know your limitations. You CAN do just about anything on an express (I ran a mixed rig on one for bands I never heard of with an hour rehearsal to get a feel for their music), but you have know what you can do within your skill level.
> 
> Personally I use multiple pages even in the same song, and I don't shy away from using the cue stacks. But to each their own.
> 
> As far as certain colors, I use every color out there (except for Rosco's brown and gray gels, never found a use for those), it is all about knowing how to use them. I had two green systems in my live music rig, a top and a high side and I used green from my movers all the time. I love the gritty, urban feel of a green/amber combination.


 
If by "brown gels" you mean R99, it actually looks quite lovely as face light. It's a nice way to add warmth to a scene without adding heat, and it looks nice on all skin types. And if by "gray gels" you mean something in the R97 family, it's also known as "neutral density," and it's used to alter the intensity of a lamp without changing the color temperature. It's helpful if you're hanging, say, brand new S4s next to some ancient Strand Centuries to compensate for the suckiness of the Strand Centuries. We also have it in our spotlights, as some of the older rockers find the full intensity to be uncomfortable.


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## waynehoskins (Nov 30, 2011)

MrsFooter said:


> It's helpful if you're hanging, say, brand new S4s next to some ancient Strand Centuries to compensate for the suckiness of the Strand Centuries. We also have it in our spotlights, as some of the older rockers find the full intensity to be uncomfortable.


 
I'm doing a show now at the local high school, with a Comet and a 1000Q (the 1000Q borrowed from the JH down the road). The 1000Q sucks by comparison. Do they make something I can put in the 1000Q to compensate for its suckiness? Negative neutral density? I'd buy that stuff all day long.

In fact, if they made a negative-ND with CTB, that'd be perfect. "Instant Super-Trouper: just add sucky quartz spot"


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## Esoteric (Nov 30, 2011)

MrsFooter said:


> If by "brown gels" you mean R99, it actually looks quite lovely as face light. It's a nice way to add warmth to a scene without adding heat, and it looks nice on all skin types. And if by "gray gels" you mean something in the R97 family, it's also known as "neutral density," and it's used to alter the intensity of a lamp without changing the color temperature. It's helpful if you're hanging, say, brand new S4s next to some ancient Strand Centuries to compensate for the suckiness of the Strand Centuries. We also have it in our spotlights, as some of the older rockers find the full intensity to be uncomfortable.


 
Yeah, I know what they are supposed to do, but I usually accomplish the same things by adjusting the intensities of the lights. Thus I have never had a real use for them.

But there are many, many ways to accomplish the things we want to as designers.


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## chausman (Nov 30, 2011)

Esoteric said:


> Yeah, I know what they are supposed to do, but I usually accomplish the same things by adjusting the intensities of the lights. Thus I have never had a real use for them.


 
Unless you have a limited number of channels. It could take 1 channel on the console to control (in theory) multiple fixtures of different ages and manufacturers.


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## shiben (Nov 30, 2011)

chausman said:


> Unless you have a limited number of channels. It could take 1 channel on the console to control (in theory) multiple fixtures of different ages and manufacturers.


 
But if your choosing the console and instruments, this does not need to happen. Or just are able to avoid things that are not all S4s...


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## Esoteric (Nov 30, 2011)

chausman said:


> Unless you have a limited number of channels. It could take 1 channel on the console to control (in theory) multiple fixtures of different ages and manufacturers.


 
Very true. But I have never had more units than channels. Just lucky I guess.

Mike


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## Gern (Nov 30, 2011)

Esoteric said:


> Yeah, I know what they are supposed to do, but I usually accomplish the same things by adjusting the intensities of the lights. Thus I have never had a real use for them.
> But there are many, many ways to accomplish the things we want to as designers.


We use them on fluorescents all the time.
You might not have never had a real use for them, but shows with camera's sure do. As Mrs Footer wrote..."neutral density," and it's used to alter the intensity of a lamp without changing the color temperature. N.D. is all about not altering the color temp."

I say I think just about every show I've done has a least 1 or more N.D.'s loaded in the boomerang.
How can you adjust the level of a tungsten light and NOT have an Amber Shift? 
My brain hurts!


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## Esoteric (Dec 1, 2011)

Gern said:


> We use them on fluorescents all the time.
> You might not have never had a real use for them, but shows with camera's sure do. As Mrs Footer wrote..."neutral density," and it's used to alter the intensity of a lamp without changing the color temperature. N.D. is all about not altering the color temp."
> 
> I say I think just about every show I've done has a least 1 or more N.D.'s loaded in the boomerang.
> ...


 
Usually I will gel for my lights at the altered intensity. And I do a lot of work with video. But I think we have derailed this topic enough.


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## TimMiller (Dec 1, 2011)

waynehoskins said:


> I'm doing a show now at the local high school, with a Comet and a 1000Q (the 1000Q borrowed from the JH down the road). The 1000Q sucks by comparison. Do they make something I can put in the 1000Q to compensate for its suckiness? Negative neutral density? I'd buy that stuff all day long.
> 
> In fact, if they made a negative-ND with CTB, that'd be perfect. "Instant Super-Trouper: just add sucky quartz spot"


 
You can't polish a turd.... You can always make good light look bad but not bad light good. Unless you are like Highend who just revamps an old fixture into something better.


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## shiben (Dec 1, 2011)

TimMiller said:


> You can't polish a turd....


 
Actually you can. Mythbusters did this and they were quite successful at it.


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## waynehoskins (Dec 1, 2011)

shiben said:


> Actually you can. Mythbusters did this and they were quite successful at it.


 
Yes indeed. They had far more luck with that than I do with trying to make that stupid 1000Q make light.

Years ago, before the school bought the Comet, the house spot was an old No. 902, the 1500W incandescent thing. We would borrow the far-better 1000Q from the JH to have two spots in musicals. For one show in like '03 we rented a Lycian Clubspot, I think that's what it was, to pair with the 1000Q. It was the same as the 1000Q on paper but far better in reality.

The advantage to having two spots that look very different is you can tell which spot op is screwing up your show...


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## Nelson (Dec 2, 2011)

waynehoskins said:


> The advantage to having two spots that look very different is you can tell which spot op is screwing up your show...


Now THAT's a good idea! It seems like I'm always asking "OK, who's spot keeps hitting the front of the stage? Not mine. Not mine either. Nope, not mine". Great, that's helpful!


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## chausman (Dec 2, 2011)

So the concert is tonight? Find someone to take pictures or video you can share!


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## Eriksrocks (Dec 3, 2011)

Ok, so it actually went pretty well. Because I'm obviously in school during the day and the space was being used for an orchestra concert this week (sound shells up), we only got a bit of time to tech after school on Wednesday.

So today I had to work furiously to finish focusing/gelling/circuiting everything, giving me only about a half an hour to 45 minutes to program everything before the house opened for the first of two shows. So all I ended up with is around 20 subs filled with different groups of lights. All I could really do was fade between them and maybe bump the specials once in a while. The first show kind of sucked due to this, poor stage management by the student club/organization that was running the show, and bad bands (all the good performers were assigned to the second show). 

However during the break between shows I had enough time to build 4 sets of cues that chased through both backlight colors and banks of backlight ellipsoidals. I used these to great effect in the second show. For faster songs I usually used one of these chases, with one hand bumping the Go button to the beat, combined with my other hand randomly fading submasters or bumping them as I see fit. This worked ok, and running the chase allowed me to bump other submasters more frequently without it seeming out of place. If I felt like a certain chase was getting stale, I would cover the end of the chase by pulling up an appropriate submaster, then clear the cue stack and start a new one. However by the end of the second show, having been at the board for nearly 7 hours, I was pretty tired and kind of gave up on trying to keep up with the song and making it complex.

I wish I could have gotten time to record more cue sets - the lighting was still rather simple as I only had a limited amount of looks that I could create and I was limited by my lack of confidence to move through different submasters or bump things quickly. Unfortunately things did get kind of repetitive - but there's not a whole lot you can do when you have over 30 different groups in one show and have to busk the thing.

However I was happy with how it turned out (actually better than expected!) and even the static looks looked a whole **** lot better than anything that's been done at this school while I've been here. Still not sure if it was worth the time put into it (not a paid job), but it was still fun none-the-less.

The advice here certainly helped, even if I didn't use all of it! Thank you!

I'll see if I can find any pics or video, even if it's a crappy cellphone video I stole from Faceboook...


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## bishopthomas (Dec 3, 2011)

Eriksrocks said:


> Still not sure if it was worth the time put into it (not a paid job), but it was still fun none-the-less.


 
If you had fun and learned something then it was worth it. Good job on getting through the show.


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## chausman (Dec 3, 2011)

Eriksrocks said:


> I'll see if I can find any pics or video, even if it's a crappy cellphone video I stole from Faceboook...


 
Best thing about Facebook...being friends with actors who post pictures of EVERYTHING!


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## MrsFooter (Dec 3, 2011)

Eriksrocks said:


> However by the end of the second show, having been at the board for nearly 7 hours, I was pretty tired and kind of gave up on trying to keep up with the song and making it complex.



Holy ass weasels, you busked for 7 hours?! I start getting board and repetitive after 3! The fact that you got through the show without leaving anyone in the dark (we'll assume) or wanting to stab yourself with a sharpie makes the show a rousing success in my book.



Eriksrocks said:


> I wish I could have gotten time to record more cue sets - the lighting was still rather simple as I only had a limited amount of looks that I could create and I was limited by my lack of confidence to move through different submasters or bump things quickly.



BLAM. That was you hitting the nail on the head. The one thing that I still struggle with today, more than anything gear related, is having the courage and the confidence to really throw my balls out there and go for it. Flash 'n trashing a show can be terrifying; it's like taking that embarrassing car dance you do to your favorite song, putting it in light form, and putting it on display live for thousands of people. It's very easy to mess up, especially when you don't know the music, and the moves that are really effective and have the biggest impact (those KA-BOOM moments!) are usually the ones involving the most risk and make you look like the biggest jackass if you screw them up. But at some point you just gotta...go for it. It gets easier with practice, but there will always be an element of risk whenever you're busking live for a band you don't know. It's just kinda the nature of the gig.

Congratulations on a successful show and a great learning experience!


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## Eriksrocks (Dec 5, 2011)

MrsFooter said:


> Holy ass weasels, you busked for 7 hours?! I start getting board and repetitive after 3! The fact that you got through the show without leaving anyone in the dark (we'll assume) or wanting to stab yourself with a sharpie makes the show a rousing success in my book.



Yeah, but I'm sure what I was doing was much, much more simple than what you can accomplish.


MrsFooter said:


> BLAM. That was you hitting the nail on the head. The one thing that I still struggle with today, more than anything gear related, is having the courage and the confidence to really throw my balls out there and go for it. Flash 'n trashing a show can be terrifying; it's like taking that embarrassing car dance you do to your favorite song, putting it in light form, and putting it on display live for thousands of people. It's very easy to mess up, especially when you don't know the music, and the moves that are really effective and have the biggest impact (those KA-BOOM moments!) are usually the ones involving the most risk and make you look like the biggest jackass if you screw them up. But at some point you just gotta...go for it. It gets easier with practice, but there will always be an element of risk whenever you're busking live for a band you don't know. It's just kinda the nature of the gig.
> 
> Congratulations on a successful show and a great learning experience!


 Pretty much this. I basically came out with a conclusion of, "the only way to do this better is to practice and do it often." 

Anyway here's a photo from the show, hopefully I'll have video soon (once I can get some from the TV studio). 




Funny story about this photo, my friend is the one playing the violin at center and he asked me to turn all the fog and haze to max for his song...

Looked awesome until I heard that it was leaking out the doors and into the backstage hallway. Apparently the hallway was filled with fog/haze. Would have set off the fire alarms had the entire building not been in test mode...


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## chausman (Dec 6, 2011)

Eriksrocks said:


>


 
Impressive! Wow...

I wish I had a stage that size...


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## Eriksrocks (Dec 6, 2011)

chausman said:


> Impressive! Wow...
> 
> I wish I had a stage that size...


 
Just curious, how large is your stage? According to the building plans we have a 81' wide x 35' deep x 50' high stage area with a 46' x 24' proscenium opening.

And yeah, it is large. Sometimes way too large.


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## bishopthomas (Dec 6, 2011)

Nice overhead stand. Also, I like the crotch mic DSC. Oh, wait, this is the lighting forum... Good job!


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## chausman (Dec 6, 2011)

Eriksrocks said:


> Just curious, how large is your stage? According to the building plans we have a 81' wide x 35' deep x 50' high stage area with a 46' x 24' proscenium opening.
> 
> And yeah, it is large. Sometimes way too large.


 
The proscenium is 40' wide, and the stage is a total of 36' deep including the apron, which is 7' from the proscenium. What we lack is height. Our teaser is about 15' high. Even then, we only get enough room to have our legs about 7' tall. Sadly...

They would have installed a full fly, but that was an extra ~$500,000.


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## Eriksrocks (Dec 6, 2011)

chausman said:


> The proscenium is 40' wide, and the stage is a total of 36' deep including the apron, which is 7' from the proscenium. What we lack is height. Our teaser is about 15' high. Even then, we only get enough room to have our legs about 7' tall. Sadly...
> 
> They would have installed a full fly, but that was an extra ~$500,000.


 
Ah - I'm very thankful we have a full fly system. Lighting like this wouldn't work too well otherwise. Flying both electrics up to nearly the top of the proscenium and then loading them with ellipsoidals really gave it that 'concert' look.


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## toastcfh (Dec 27, 2021)

Eriksrocks said:


> Ah - I'm very thankful we have a full fly system. Lighting like this wouldn't work too well otherwise. Flying both electrics up to nearly the top of the proscenium and then loading them with ellipsoidals really gave it that 'concert' look.


a decade later and I found this thread incredibly useful


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## egilson1 (Dec 27, 2021)

toastcfh said:


> a decade later and I found this thread incredibly useful


Make sure you drop on over to the new member board and introduce yourself. 

And welcome!


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## Jay Ashworth (Jan 4, 2022)

soundman said:


> Invite the lead singer's girlfriend into the booth with you, she will be a great help as she will know all the music. If the lead singer isn't in a relationship there is a good chance the lighting won't be able to save the band //mild sarcasm.


And you win the Internet for Monday, with Erik for the assist.


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## Darin (Jan 6, 2022)

I used to do this for a living. Standard rig (no LED's, movers, etc.). I would get MAYBE two hours to focus lights (based on the bad's stage map, which was often wrong), and then making things up as I went during the show. Good times.


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