# Cam-Lok Power Tie-In Lockout



## wavemaster447 (Sep 21, 2014)

Hi, 

Our theatre has a 250amp "company-switch" power tie in off stage, that we tie Camlock tails (no caps) into via bare-wire connections when we need additional power onstage. 
Currently, we disconnect the tails immediately after use, and don't wire them back on until we need them next. However, one visiting technician suggested that by using proper lock-out procedures on the breaker for the tie-in (which is in the same panel as the tie-in), we could save time and leave the tails mounted. This sounds intriguing, but I'm very hesitant.

*Does anybody have experience or advice with this situation, or can anybody direct me to the proper NFPA code that governs temporary tie-in, or "dangling" CamLock connectors? *(it's _wye _if that matters)

I'm looking into lock-out solutions regardless, but it would be great if we don't have to tie those tails every other show.

Here's some Grainger products that look applicable: 

http://www.grainger.com/product/BRA...m/rp/s/is/image/Grainger/3TM25_AS01?$smthumb$

http://www.grainger.com/product/BRA...m/rp/s/is/image/Grainger/3LY22_AS01?$smthumb$

http://www.grainger.com/product/MAS...m/rp/s/is/image/Grainger/1TDB5_AS01?$smthumb$

Thanks in advance anybody!


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## derekleffew (Sep 21, 2014)

wavemaster447 said:


> http://www.grainger.com/product/BRA...m/rp/s/is/image/Grainger/3LY22_AS01?$smthumb$


The above is what the switches with tails have in the building in which I work most (although mine came that way/not a retrofit). Three 600 and one 400A, 120/208Y VAC. Tails have been in place for over twenty years. All of the other switches are 200A, have flush-mount Cam-Lok, and have no locks, other than those on the panel doors.

In my opinion, the most important relevant portion is 2011 NEC 520.53(P) Qualified Personnel.

As always, check with your AHJ, who has final say in the matter.


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## cmckeeman (Sep 21, 2014)

Just don't lose the keys, it is a hassle to cut off a LOTO legally.


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## Pie4Weebl (Sep 22, 2014)

I would say 80% of the venues I see on tour don't have cams locked out in any fashion. The ones that do have a lock on the switch for the whole panel, as opposed to for the breaker. I've NEVER seen one tagged out for temporary power.

On behalf of all touring guys, I beg of you, please keep a set of cams installed, there is nothing worse than waiting an extra half hour for motor power for the tie in to get one.


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## Footer (Sep 22, 2014)

We have tails tied in to our lightning switch all the time with no lock out. Our motor and audio power are panel mount cams with spring loaded covers. All of them are not locked. Qualified personnel only is the rule here... 

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


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## porkchop (Sep 22, 2014)

I'd say this definitely falls into that intentional code gray area known as "ask your AHJ if you want to know the real answer." That being said, I bet a lot of the buildings that keep their tails tied in don't ask for fear of being told no. Qualified personnel is certainly the most important part of any electrical hookup, but if the $15 breaker lockout makes everyone feel better then I'd say it's money well spent. If you want to implement a proper lock-out/tag-out with assigned lock/key sets and an official log then it might be a bit of additional paperwork (usage policies, training practices, records, etc...), but the theatre SHOULD have some kind of OSHA contact to help guide them through that process.

Side note:

Pie4Weebl said:


> On behalf of all touring guys, I beg of you, please keep a set of cams installed, there is nothing worse than waiting an extra half hour for motor power for the tie in to get one.



Half an hour! Who's doing you tie-in? Insert token joke here about 70 year old union hands (I'm tired).


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## JD (Sep 22, 2014)

porkchop said:


> Half an hour! Who's doing you tie-in? Insert token joke here about 70 year old union hands (I'm tired).


I suspect what he is talking about is getting the guy to show up! Can remember a few jobs where we waited hours! (Luckily, none involved motors.)


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## MikeJ (Sep 23, 2014)

Waiting for power on an in sucks, especially in ballrooms where you have to wait for an "electrician" from "engineering" to show up. And often venues will throw a fit if you just tie in yourself. Though, at 2am nobody ever complains when my tails mysteriously untie themselves during load out.


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## FMEng (Sep 23, 2014)

Footer said:


> We have tails tied in to our lightning switch all the time with no lock out. Our motor and audio power are panel mount cams with spring loaded covers. All of them are not locked. Qualified personnel only is the rule here...
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk



It's not as if lock-out, tag-out is an onerous thing to do. In most states it is required by law, regardless of whether the personnel are qualified or not. Even the most controlled environements have had accidents that could be prevented by LOTO.


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## JD (Sep 23, 2014)

MikeJ said:


> Though, at 2am nobody ever complains when my tails mysteriously untie themselves during load out.


Ya notice that? 

Often, the tails would ride in the cab of the truck as we gave them every possible opportunity to come disconnect us. When the truck's packed, and the only person left in the building is pushing a broom, I would drag myself down and pull them.


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## PeteEngel (Sep 23, 2014)

You know, for the cost of lock out/tag out gear, and the official training that you and your crew should have to properly implement that system (I know, how hard is it to put a lock on a service panel), and then the lock out only works of someone Locks it out and doesn't forget for some reason, or personnel changes leave the good ideas in the dust bin of history, you may want to consider actually putting in the Camlock receptacles so that you don't have to worry about it at all. I have sympathy for the touring people not wanting to wait to tie in their tails, but it IS an accepted time consideration. If you want to be safe, put in the panel or just continue to tie in the bare leads. I found this panel online. No idea if it would work in your situation...
https://www.atidistributors.com/ele...ion-400-amp-assembled-includes-caps-lanyards/
And speaking of tying in power, since you are in an exposed power panel tying in power, you SHOULD already be LOTO at the panel and potentially upstream as well. 
Just sayin'...


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## porkchop (Sep 23, 2014)

PeteEngel said:


> And speaking of tying in power, since you are in an exposed power panel tying in power, you SHOULD already be LOTO at the panel and potentially upstream as well.
> Just sayin'...



Not necessarily true depending on the configuration of the panel and it's location in the building.


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## techieman33 (Sep 23, 2014)

MikeJ said:


> Waiting for power on an in sucks, especially in ballrooms where you have to wait for an "electrician" from "engineering" to show up. And often venues will throw a fit if you just tie in yourself. Though, at 2am nobody ever complains when my tails mysteriously untie themselves during load out.



It's amazing how that works isn't it. One time I asked about pulling my tails while the electrician was tying me in and he just left me a key to the panel. That way he wouldn't have to come in at 2am to do it for me.

In our venue we lock the knife switch right next to the tie in panel. All of the qualified people have the key though.


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## FMEng (Sep 23, 2014)

porkchop said:


> Not necessarily true depending on the configuration of the panel and it's location in the building.



If you are working in a hot panel or disconnect, then you have the obligation of following the rules for arc flash. The protective equipment isn't trivial at the higher category levels, and most stage disconnects would fall into the higher categories because the building distribution system is large. Doing this correctly makes the cost of putting the protected cam lock switch look like an easier path.

BTW, I have seen the injuries from an arc flash. It's nothing to mess with. A simple slip of a screw driver, or a faulty breaker, and you might not have much flesh on the front of your body. Like many of you, I have worked in a hot panel countless times, but it is time to develop a new level of respect for the amount of potential energy that can be unleashed.


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## PeteEngel (Sep 24, 2014)

porkchop said:


> Not necessarily true depending on the configuration of the panel and it's location in the building.


I'd like to see the rules that say LOTO isn't required due to a panel location or configuration. It is this simple. If you are working in a panel/circuit that can be energized by someone else, that power to that panel needs to be LOCKED OUT upstream with a locking device that only YOU have the key to. The locks and keys should be in an identifiable cabinet with a log book so that anyone can see who has a lock/key signed out, where the are working and what is being locked out. I think the only way you can go around that is to have someone standing at the locked piece of gear to prevent someone else from energizing the circuit, but please let me know if that is incorrect. It has been a few years since the LOTO class and I don't do that anymore. 
There are many reasons and excuses that can be listed as to why one may want to skirt established safety rules. No one here can say they have not done (or will do sometime in the future) some kind of procedure that may not necessarily be "code", and basically the best that can be said about those times is that "We Got Lucky" that no one was hurt, not that we were correct and safe. All we can do is try to hold to a standard. If you are going to work with an established standard, in this case LOTO, then don't do it half assed!


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## STEVETERRY (Sep 24, 2014)

wavemaster447 said:


> Hi,
> 
> Our theatre has a 250amp "company-switch" power tie in off stage, that we tie Camlock tails (no caps) into via bare-wire connections when we need additional power onstage.
> Currently, we disconnect the tails immediately after use, and don't wire them back on until we need them next. However, one visiting technician suggested that by using proper lock-out procedures on the breaker for the tie-in (which is in the same panel as the tie-in), we could save time and leave the tails mounted. This sounds intriguing, but I'm very hesitant.
> ...




There are a few separate but related questions here:

_1. Does the NEC prohibit leaving single-conductor Cam-Lok tails connected when not in use?_
Not explicitly, but certainly implicitly. Operation of single conductor feeder cables is limited to Qualified Personnel. Dangling tails that can be energized invite unqualified personnel to do potentially bad things with them. Therefore, it is the responsibility of the Qualified Personnel to remove the tails when not in use, unless the source is locked out. An AHJ would be highly likely to take this view, IMHO.
_
2. Does locking out the source of power to the tails allow them to be safely left connected when not in use?_
Yes, in my opinion. This has the added benefit of reducing the exposure of personnel (even qualified personnel) to an open panel or switch each time the tails are tied in. This might present an arc-flash hazard.

ST


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## LavaASU (Sep 24, 2014)

One of my buildings leaves the dangling tails (on some panels) but locks out (not true loto, just a key with limited access) the panel. It saves a lot of time and the key its locked with is the same one the qualified people have to open the panels.


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## porkchop (Sep 24, 2014)

I believe the OP's original question has been answered as best as will happen. As usual Steve Terry probably said it best.

Now onto this (potential overstep of the TOS, mods please edit as necessary):

PeteEngel said:


> I'd like to see the rules that say LOTO isn't required due to a panel location or configuration. It is this simple. If you are working in a panel/circuit that can be energized by someone else, that power to that panel needs to be LOCKED OUT upstream with a locking device that only YOU have the key to. The locks and keys should be in an identifiable cabinet with a log book so that anyone can see who has a lock/key signed out, where the are working and what is being locked out. I think the only way you can go around that is to have someone standing at the locked piece of gear to prevent someone else from energizing the circuit, but please let me know if that is incorrect. It has been a few years since the LOTO class and I don't do that anymore.
> There are many reasons and excuses that can be listed as to why one may want to skirt established safety rules. No one here can say they have not done (or will do sometime in the future) some kind of procedure that may not necessarily be "code", and basically the best that can be said about those times is that "We Got Lucky" that no one was hurt, not that we were correct and safe. All we can do is try to hold to a standard. If you are going to work with an established standard, in this case LOTO, then don't do it half assed!



I absolutely agree with you that LOTO is a practice that prevents equipment from becoming unexpectedly and dangerously energized. In the situation you mentioned where the tie-in location is separate from the disconnecting means (breaker, disconnect, knife switch, etc...) the disconnecting means would most certainly have to be locked out. However there are other situations where it isn't necessarily the case that LOTO must be used for a normal everyday tie-in (Not saying that it couldn't be used if that makes a person feel safer, just that it isn't compulsory).
A common situation to find in a road house or an arena is that all company switches are fully enclosed with both a breaker and the tie-in terminals in the same panel and they are all contained inside a room or area that is only accessible to qualified personal. In a configuration like this, when the breaker is open the terminals are disconnected from the mains and a person would literally have to reach over the qualified person doing the tie-in to energize them. In many situations like that LOTO is an unnecessary extra step.
It is possible that it is unsafe to work with the terminals inside the panel when the mains input is live, and in those cases LOTO should be used (probably upstream of the panel in question), but many panels today are designed so you can safely tie-in to the terminals with the mains input still live (provided the breaker is open of course). There are even some newer designs where if the breaker is closed you can't open the door to access the terminals.
All I'm saying is there are a ton of different ways to achieve the same goal and each one requires individual safety consideration. That's why we always say talk to your AHJ.


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## MikeJ (Sep 24, 2014)

techieman33 said:


> It's amazing how that works isn't it. One time I asked about pulling my tails while the electrician was tying me in and he just left me a key to the panel. That way he wouldn't have to come in at 2am to do it for me.
> 
> In our venue we lock the knife switch right next to the tie in panel. All of the qualified people have the key though.



Recently at a hotel, they guy came down from engineering and was a little nervous, then point blank, said "Um..I've never actually done this before...I've done electrical work, but not like this." At least he was upfront, and wanted to be safe. I gladly walked him through it.

And to get back on topic, If you have the budget and space, why not add a panel mount set of camlocks? Maybe 2? They do make things very convenient.


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## Footer (Sep 24, 2014)

MikeJ said:


> Recently at a hotel, they guy came down from engineering and was a little nervous, then point blank, said "Um..I've never actually done this before...I've done electrical work, but not like this." At least he was upfront, and wanted to be safe. I gladly walked him through it.
> 
> And to get back on topic, If you have the budget and space, why not add a panel mount set of camlocks? Maybe 2? They do make things very convenient.



Still does not change the original question. How does going from tails to panel mount cams change anything in regards to locking out the panel unless the panel mount cams have a interlock or some other way of ensuring they are not energized when they are not connected.


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## MikeJ (Sep 24, 2014)

Footer said:


> Still does not change the original question. How does going from tails to panel mount cams change anything in regards to locking out the panel unless the panel mount cams have a interlock or some other way of ensuring they are not energized when they are not connected.



Safety and codes have already been addressed in above posts.
The OP wanted to leave tail tied in for convenience, my suggestion of panel mount cams, is IMO more convenient than tails.

This is not rocket surgery, panel mount cams or tails, you ensure that they are not energized by throwing the switch , and only allowing trained personnel to make and break connections.


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## StradivariusBone (Sep 25, 2014)

Since the OP's question has been answered, I'm hoping this won't constitute a thread hijack, if it does please reprimand at will-

Is there any actual certification that is required before one can do a tie in? I know with electrical work in the building there's a point where we have to call the county electrician, pretty much anything where we're opening panels requires a licensed electrician. We don't have a company switch in our building and every group that needs that kind of power rents a generator. I've seen the tie in done and I understand the procedures and the risks, but I wouldn't volunteer to do one (Also, arc flash is freaking terrifying. I looked that up after reading a few posts up. Vaporized copper and plasma fire. That's a big pile of nope.). 

So in the case of @MikeJ how does a venue trust their engineer to do one, when he clearly has no clue, but not the electricians on the road crew who do this day in and out? What's the standard involved? Do venues regularly employ licensed electricians to do this or is it a "Joe's seen like 100-150 tie in's. He's cool." mentality?


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## JD (Sep 25, 2014)

Footer said:


> Still does not change the original question. How does going from tails to panel mount cams change anything in regards to locking out the panel unless the panel mount cams have a interlock or some other way of ensuring they are not energized when they are not connected.


The easy answer is to have a real company switch installed. It is expensive, but a one-time expense.
http://www.lexproducts.com/content/upload_products/400_Amp_Company_Switch_Type_1_Indoor-b.pdf
"For enhanced safety, the access door to Cam-type or IEC 60309 pin & sleeve and lug connections is interlocked to the main breaker, which means the breaker can only be turned on when the access door is closed"

That being said, a cam connector is considered by the NEC to be a "tool-less lug", so the same restrictions apply to connecting a cam up as do to a bare end tail.

StradivariusBone said:


> Is there any actual certification that is required before one can do a tie in? I know with electrical work in the building there's a point where we have to call the county electrician, pretty much anything where we're opening panels requires a licensed electrician.


Just saw your post come up. As I touched on above, the same qualifications apply to Cams and Tails and those would require someone with electrical certification. 

You also touched on Arc Flash. It might be interesting to do a poll on this sometime to see how many of us have experienced this. My own was in 1974 with a panel that had a broken Bakelite backbone. Once experienced, (if you survive) you never look at power the same way.


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## porkchop (Sep 25, 2014)

I'd say this thread has been successfully hijacked in several different directions.


StradivariusBone said:


> Is there any actual certification that is required before one can do a tie in? I know with electrical work in the building there's a point where we have to call the county electrician, pretty much anything where we're opening panels requires a licensed electrician. We don't have a company switch in our building and every group that needs that kind of power rents a generator. I've seen the tie in done and I understand the procedures and the risks, but I wouldn't volunteer to do one (Also, arc flash is freaking terrifying. I looked that up after reading a few posts up. Vaporized copper and plasma fire. That's a big pile of nope.).
> 
> So in the case of @MikeJ how does a venue trust their engineer to do one, when he clearly has no clue, but not the electricians on the road crew who do this day in and out? What's the standard involved? Do venues regularly employ licensed electricians to do this or is it a "Joe's seen like 100-150 tie in's. He's cool." mentality?



There are a lot of buildings/unions that operate the Joe's cool mentality you mentioned. The closest thing to an actual certification is the ETCP Entertainment Electrician certification, but it's still optional. I would say the governing principle is OSHA's requirement that work on this kind of equipment should only done by qualified personnel. Who decides a person is qualified and what they use to decide that is up to the employer (at least until something goes wrong). In a standard/code summery from the OSHA site a qualified person is defined as:

> One familiar with the construction and operation of the equipment and the hazards involved.



In at least a few building I've worked in the insurance company is really the one that says "Only people with specific training X can do tie-ins". Even then, I would expect that training to be a class or program developed for and by that individual employer that is unique to the risks and hazards present in their building. Because of this a qualified person in building A may not be a qualified person in building B if they haven't been through building B's training. 

Sadly this is all the more-or-less best case practice that most of us have seen fall right apart when it's time to go and the right person isn't available.

SIDENOTE: The OSHA summery I quoted is Electrical Safety in the Workplace and it's actually a pretty good document on exactly what we've been talking about in this thread.


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## MikeJ (Sep 25, 2014)

StradivariusBone said:


> Since the OP's question has been answered, I'm hoping this won't constitute a thread hijack, if it does please reprimand at will-
> 
> Is there any actual certification that is required before one can do a tie in? I know with electrical work in the building there's a point where we have to call the county electrician, pretty much anything where we're opening panels requires a licensed electrician. We don't have a company switch in our building and every group that needs that kind of power rents a generator. I've seen the tie in done and I understand the procedures and the risks, but I wouldn't volunteer to do one (Also, arc flash is freaking terrifying. I looked that up after reading a few posts up. Vaporized copper and plasma fire. That's a big pile of nope.).
> 
> So in the case of @MikeJ how does a venue trust their engineer to do one, when he clearly has no clue, but not the electricians on the road crew who do this day in and out? What's the standard involved? Do venues regularly employ licensed electricians to do this or is it a "Joe's seen like 100-150 tie in's. He's cool." mentality?



A venue might have a licensed electrician on staff, but probably only one, if any. The rest of the staff may be trained properly to do the work as well, but even in the case of residential and commercial installation, the vast majority of electrical workers are NOT licensed. They are typically required to have ONE Licensed electrician to oversee and sign off on the work being done.

In my case, the only guy in engineering who was available had not been trained. The particular hotel only has the one ball room, and one disconnect, so tying in power is not a huge part of their job.
Also, It seems that when you call the front desk and ask for someone to come to the ball room, they often just call and say "there are people that need help with the lights or something in the ballroom." And then they show up with the remote for the house lights, and the guy that DOES know what to do, is off on another project.

When I train people to do any electrical work, first I need them to have a firm understanding of electricity in general, then they must be able to demonstrate in controlled conditions, how to do things properly, and explain WHY these are the correct procedures.

when asking the question, "why do you connect ground first?", "that's how I was taught." is not an acceptable answer.


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## Lsly (Sep 25, 2014)

In Oregon we have a "Limited Stage Journeyman" Licence that allows for this type of bare wire tie-in. Also ETCP has been pushed in many areas in the Pac Nor West. I think leaving the tails in would fall under the temporary rules which basically say you must unplug or remove the conductors after 90 days or something. I say leave them in and lock out the switch when not in use. Remove them during long dark periods. Also there are now locks that can be placed over the ends of the CAMs. I have not looked at the Temp rules in 2014 NEC so I deffer to anyone that has and, Steve Terry.

LS


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## StradivariusBone (Sep 26, 2014)

MikeJ said:


> when asking the question, "why do you connect ground first?", "that's how I was taught." is not an acceptable answer.



Generally because I don't enjoy being a ground myself. 

The qualified personnel idea is an interesting dilemma I'm learning. Our district recently discovered (after an injury I'm told) that OSHA mandates only qualified personnel operate AWP's and other lifts. We were required to take a course that trained us on buckets and scissors, but not AWP's despite that none of our PAC's have anything but AWP's. In fact, our little group of TD's had to set up the Genie so we could do the training because the guy teaching the class had never operated one before, and he was a former OSHA inspector. Not knocking him, because he had a wealth of knowledge, but he also seemed to grasp that we knew what we were doing and were not going to kill or maim anyone. The qualifications are in the eyes of the beholder it would seem. 

I tend to err on the side of caution in these circumstances and defer to those who know better, unless it becomes apparent that they do not.


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## RickR (Sep 27, 2014)

OSHA's definition of "qualified" is rather vague, and in my opinion the cause of considerable confusion. 

One of the key concepts is that only qualified persons know whether they are qualified or not, because only they know the dangers. It's a bit like the the joke about buying big boats; if you have to ask then you can't.


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## FMEng (Sep 27, 2014)

State laws often go much further than OSHA. I could be mistaken, but I think Washington L&I requires tie in to be done by a licensed electrician, and it has to be signed off by an electrical inspector.


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## porkchop (Sep 28, 2014)

FMEng said:


> State laws often go much further than OSHA. I could be mistaken, but I think Washington L&I requires tie in to be done by a licensed electrician, and it has to be signed off by an electrical inspector.



I have never toured in Washington, but if that was the case, and it applied to touring shows, I imagine I would have heard about the state being a PITA to work in. So I'm a bit skeptical. A lot of productions skate by otherwise problematic clauses in the code because they are technically temporary installs. I'd be perfectly willing to believe the part about licensed electricians doing the tie-in. However, getting a state inspector to show up on a Sunday for a one-off that's going to be energized for a total of 12 hours is something that no related parties want to deal with.


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## Scarrgo (Sep 28, 2014)

Off-Topic

I have had the joy of touring and run thru the great state of Washington(lots of great people), and my experience has been "depends on what city your in". One city the inspector had to come and check tie in and give a permit, the main guy had the day off so we got guy [HASHTAG]#2[/HASHTAG], and I think he wanted to show that he knows what he was doing, told use we could not use cams to do tie in and my feeder, 4 ø double jacket stamped "Entertainment Grade" was not acceptably to use, not sure what I was supposed to use than, I stood my ground, much to the horror of the local crew, 20 minutes later he gave up, and gave us our permit...becouse he had no answer on what we were supposed to do
Was I right fighting the city Inspector? no, But...still believe I was correct.

On topic

To the OP, check with the AHJ as others have said and see if he/she has an opinion, and get a lock so no one can turn on the power when no rack is attached...you never know when someone is going to stick there finger into the end of the cams...

Sean...


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## FMEng (Sep 28, 2014)

A lot of things go on being done like we've always done it, even though it isn't legal. In Washington, some cities have jurisdiction over electrical inspections. In other places, such as unincorporated counties, State L&I has jurisdiction. The local inspectors may view temporary stage hookups differently than L&I does.

I'll give you an example how things are changing. I know for a fact that Washington L&I has targeted enforcement for the generator maintenance companies. It used to be that a diesel mechanic would connect a load bank for testing an installed generator, and then re-connect the building load when finished. That is no longer allowed. Now it takes the mechanic, an electrician and a state inspector to put a generator on a load bank. It makes generator maintenance extremely expensive.


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## JD (Sep 28, 2014)

Things are so formal these days! 
I remember doing a theater above Allentown PA back in 1974. The tie-in was a bare live chunk of aluminum triplex (ok, quad-plex if it's a word) sticking out of the floor backstage. Someone had stuck rubber gloves over the hots for "safety." Ground you ask? Ha! 
I don't miss those days a bit. Was glad when "Twecos" started showing up, and then later when those "new fangled" Cam-Loks came to town. Never enjoyed the concept that part of the lighting business involved risking one's life for no good reason.


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## MikeJ (Sep 28, 2014)

No offence intended here, and if it makes you feel safer, go ahead, but there is no way I would INVITE inspectors from the government, who often have no clue what they are doing, much less know anything about entertainment, and who often site inappropriate or incorrect codes, into my spaces. The exception being, if some is doing things that I know to be unsafe, and refuse to correct them; sometimes a higher power can help.

I will call the health department on dodgy catering though.


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## wolfman005 (Sep 29, 2014)

Another hijack here, what are the requirements for attaching cams to existing installed cams? When I was working in a production warehouse this summer I was taught how to do this, but if I were at a show I would be hesitant just because who knows what a AHJ, Local hand, or <insert other figure of authority here> would feel about a 18 year old doing something like this. Not to mention I wouldn't want the liability if I did something wrong...although going from ground to neutral to hots when connecting and hots to neutral to ground isn't something easily messed up IMO.


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## JD (Sep 29, 2014)

wolfman005 said:


> Another hijack here, what are the requirements for attaching cams to existing installed cams? When I was working in a production warehouse this summer I was taught how to do this, but if I were at a show I would be hesitant just because who knows what a AHJ, Local hand, or <insert other figure of authority here> would feel about a 18 year old doing something like this. Not to mention I wouldn't want the liability if I did something wrong...although going from ground to neutral to hots when connecting and hots to neutral to ground isn't something easily messed up IMO.


Despite the fact that the mechanics of it are pretty much the same as plugging in a twist-lock, the Cam is considered a "tool-less lug", so the same rules apply as would be for connecting bare ends. I "think" the thought behind this is that the ramifications of reversing one or two are so great, and the potential ramifications for connection while under load or short are so great. Retired now, but I can't remember a venue that actually enforced this although I am sure some do. Also, downstream cams are rarely looked at even though the same rules apply to any situation where single conductors are being connected. Most systems now reverse the Male/Female on the ground and neutral, so it would be hard to mess things up, but it is not universal.


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## Scarrgo (Sep 29, 2014)

@MikeJ,
No offense taken, not all states seem to follow the same rules on how things are done, Chicago has had a couple bad happenings, so those folks see things a bit different than say Detroit, New Haven or Wherever.

As FMEng said, in Washington(State), there are some crazy rules on whom can do what and whom has to OK anything that anywhere else, folks can seem to care less, do we normally invite them in and ask for inspection and permits for a simple show tie in? nope, its just THEIR rules, and you have to follow them or they could shut you down.

And its not that we dont ever want inspections, its just that some people may take liberties for the bottom line or dont know how to really do things, and folks get hurt, I can replace EVERYTHING in my building, I CAN NOT replace you, the last thing any of us want is to hurt someone, but it happens, and a good deal of the time, a simple lesson or a $3 doohickey is all it takes to prevent something bad.

Sorry for the sappiness, but its the way I feel, I am NOT perfect, I have made too many mistakes and taken too many shortcuts in the past to get the show done...I have been lucky that no one has gotten hurt, as I have gotten older and some what wiser, and I do try my best to show the kids I work with the right way to do things...same may not agree, but thats a different topic all together.

Sean...


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## porkchop (Sep 29, 2014)

wolfman005 said:


> Another hijack here, what are the requirements for attaching cams to existing installed cams? When I was working in a production warehouse this summer I was taught how to do this, but if I were at a show I would be hesitant just because who knows what a AHJ, Local hand, or <insert other figure of authority here> would feel about a 18 year old doing something like this. Not to mention I wouldn't want the liability if I did something wrong...although going from ground to neutral to hots when connecting and hots to neutral to ground isn't something easily messed up IMO.



You'd be surprised the power of under trained people when given the huge variation in switch gear from venue to venue. That being said, a good foundation in best practices and some common sense can make a really good electrician at any age.

As far as feeder goes, as a fairly general practice when you're running feeder the person that's "responsible" for the gear makes the connections. It could be the ME for the project, the vendor that's supplying the gear for a larger project, or the touring guy that's working with the locals as they lay out the feeder. In my experience with different locals and unions it's a bit hit or miss if the guys laying out the feeder would make intermittent connections (the joint between two 100' sections for a 200' run for example), but I would never expect, or really want, a local to tie the cams into my rack. With a company switch that has cams I'd expect the building guy responsible for energizing the disconnect to make the connections. If there are tails tied into the disconnect it's 50/50 if the guy responsible for the tie-in or the gear makes connection.


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## MikeJ (Sep 29, 2014)

wolfman005 said:


> Another hijack here, what are the requirements for attaching cams to existing installed cams? When I was working in a production warehouse this summer I was taught how to do this, but if I were at a show I would be hesitant just because who knows what a AHJ, Local hand, or <insert other figure of authority here> would feel about a 18 year old doing something like this. Not to mention I wouldn't want the liability if I did something wrong...although going from ground to neutral to hots when connecting and hots to neutral to ground isn't something easily messed up IMO.



Typically, any cams up until you actually plug into the disconnect, can be done by almost anyone usually by the tour/production company, or stagehands under direction of the company or tour. When you actually hook up to power, most venues have a house guy who is the only person allowed to make/break connections and throw the switch. In the case of the Convention center in St. Louis, you will get a guy from the company that has the electrical contract with the building, Edlen I believe, and that guy just might hook up you hots before the ground and neutral, and then flip a switch that has a hot leg and ground reversed. So, meter your power before turning on. I even got a set of *brand new from the factory*, camlock five wire, from a rental company, and they had the red and green cam swapped on one end. So always meter your power, even if you did not change anything from one day to another, you don't know is someone else did, and did not hook it back up right.

A lot of place will let you hookup cams and turn on and off the company switch, once they get to know you and are confident in your abilities, others have more strict protocol.

Oh, always be safe, be courteous, and humble, but don't worry about what a local hand thinks. I had a local hand this past summer who thought he was being helpful by unplugging cables he thought we were finished with. I turned the corner and saw him squatting, and as he leaned on the power distro to stand up, he said "ouch, that's got some bit to it!" At his feet were the neutral and ground camlocks that he had just unplugged, from the PD that was powering the motor controllers while motors were moving. 

There are a few touring guy on here who started their careers in St. Louis, and I have a few friends from around the area. What places have you been working?, I'll bet you have run into a bunch of the same people.


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