# New Theatre Facility Ideas



## Mim (Oct 5, 2010)

A few questions regarding technical theatre and your specific venue/s. 
What do you love about your theatre, and why? 
What do you dislike about your theatre, and why? 
If you had built it, what would you keep and what would you have changed?
If you could have any type of performance space which would you choose: proscenium, black box, thrust, etc.?
What is most challenging about your current space?

Any other input would be certainly appreciated as I will be soon be handed an advisory position on a new project that is 5 years out, and want to be certain I am covering as many scenarios and issues I possibly can.


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## kiwitechgirl (Oct 5, 2010)

Mim said:


> A few questions regarding technical theatre and your specific venue/s.
> What do you love about your theatre, and why?




The fact that it's unique - there isn't another space like it anywhere in the world (it's a converted space). The fact that if you're in the front row, you're closer to the action than any other theatre I've ever been in - the audience relationship with the stage is fantastic. The fact that our "tunnel" which goes from one side of the stage to the other (under the auditorium) is where every cast puts something up on the wall and signs it so their show will be remembered.


> What do you dislike about your theatre, and why?



The fact that I have to take disabled patrons and those who don't deal with stairs well, in through backstage and across the stage. The fact that we can't fly anything (fixed grid) and have almost zero wingspace.


> If you had built it, what would you keep and what would you have changed?



I'd keep the shape (we're sort of 3/4 thrust) and the audience relationship with the stage. I'd give us enough height to fly set pieces, and some more wingspace. I'd also like proper disabled access and wheelchair seats that I don't have to lift out and put on a trolley to create space for the wheelchairs! Oh, and I'd like to be able to see the stage from prompt corner without a monitor....I'd also keep the "tunnel" as it's a part of what and who we are.


> If you could have any type of performance space which would you choose: proscenium, black box, thrust, etc.?



Proscenium, any day - I love working in proscenium houses.


> What is most challenging about your current space?



Keeping the designs new and interesting while working within the extremely limiting parameters of the space, while creating workable, functional sets which don't require crew.


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## seanandkate (Oct 5, 2010)

Mim said:


> A few questions regarding technical theatre and your specific venue/s.
> What do you love about your theatre, and why?


It's a blackbox. I love the fact that I can configure the seating to anything. It's been proscenium, thrust, arena, bizarre -- you name it. Like kiwitechgirl the audience is close enough to touch actors, and that creates a special kind of environment that you can't replicate in a larger space (the house seats about 150)

Mim said:


> What do you dislike about your theatre, and why?


 Low grid. No flying. No thought of booth placement in initial design.

Mim said:


> If you had built it, what would you keep and what would you have changed?


Dedicated booth space. Raise the grid by about 10 feet. Hostile takeover of the rooms to either side of the theatre to increase wing space. Increased electrical capacity so the retrofit 15 years ago wasn't like building Hadrian's wall.

Mim said:


> If you could have any type of performance space which would you choose: proscenium, black box, thrust, etc.?


I love all of those formats, but for different reasons. It depends on a lot of variables. My black box works for _me_ because I want to have the flexibility to have students (and higher ups) see different configurations, and the pluses and minuses inherent to each. My ideal house size is about 120 because that's how many I can count on in any given night--educational theatre being what it is. A larger space would look barren.

Mim said:


> What is most challenging about your current space?


Grid height and lack of proper wing space. And lack of overall storage space now that I come to think of it.


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## Mim (Oct 6, 2010)

Sean - how high is your grid? just curious


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## Mim (Oct 6, 2010)

My current theatre is a proscenium, we're looking to add a 'flexible' space to our projected arts campus. I have ideas, some good some bad I'm sure, but there are probably things I'm not thinking about so I really appreciate all input!


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## jonliles (Oct 6, 2010)

I am without a permanent home at the moment so I will refrain from the questions. But (I think I undersstand what you are tryting to accomplish. Check out GA Tech's Ferst Arts Center (Georgia Institute of Technology :: Ferst Center for the Arts). They basically have a black box with open configuration seating. The Box more than 2 stories high and easily accommodates 2 story sets. The student run "DramaTech" organization does all of their performances there. You may want to contact them to see what they like and do not like. Sorry, I do not personally know any of the students, but you can contact them through their website. If you are ever in Atlanta, I am sure they would give you a tour.


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## bdkdesigns (Oct 6, 2010)

You know, it was once explained to me that there are two types of theatre spaces and I've found it to be true in most smaller spaces until you get up to the larger regional theatres: 

1) Designed or consulted by a theatre designer/technician. This space is a dream to work in. Everything from a technical standpoint has been thought of and can support the workload going on. As an example, my last space was huge. Our stage had plenty of wingspace for scenery storage. In fact, our stage right wing was larger than the stage itself. It wasn't uncommon for us to store another shows set just offstage: Ie: The Montana Rep National Tour set that gets built in the summer and tours in the spring. The scene shop itself is equal in size to the stage...and that was the alternate size when funding the building, it was originally supposed to be twice as big. Currently right now in their scene shop, they are building the set for their first production of the season, Hair, and also building this years USA exhibit for the PQ. So, from a technical side, it is amazing. Now, the audience perspective is another story. The exterior of the building is interesting but the novelty really pretty much stops there. The lobby is nothing special at all. Some steps lead up to the theatre entrance with an awkwardly placed elevator to allow for handicapped seating on the side. Once inside the space, you are treating to a horrific brown painted popcorn ceiling and walls with nothing special going on at all.

2) Designed or consulted by a theatre director/producer. This type of space is horrific to work in from a technical standpoint. Often times your shops are extremely small (assuming that they even exist in the first place) and you get almost zero wing space. Now, from the audiences perspective, everything is top of the line. These type of spaces often have breathtaking lobby areas and a house with nice detailed walls, perhaps fancy hanging house lights/chandelier. Everything is just visually pleasing. This type of theatre also existed in Missoula, MT. The Missoula Childrens Theatre fits this to the T. Their old flying system was some sort of horrific blend of a hemp system that gave you no leverage because the control area didn't allow you to see the stage and you changed directions through some pullies so that you pulled the ropes in towards you in a horizontal fashion rather than vertically. It wasn't until many years later that they were able to ditch that system and invest in Vortek. Their wingspace and shops are another story though. Those cannot be expanded without a TON of money. From an audience perspective though, it was all top of the line.

And, in case you are interested, they set up a facebook page tracking the build of the PQ exhibit located here


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## JChenault (Oct 6, 2010)

To take a slightly different approach - here are some of the dumbest things I have seen architects / contractors do.


Put in a low door between the (tall ) scene ship and the (tall) stage.
Fill up the overhead space with air ducts. Fill up the grid with air ducts. 
Not pay attention to the noise of your HVAC system ( a common problem )
Not being clear on what kind of theatre shape. IE it's not a thrust, it's not a proscenium, it's a poke. 
Not thinking clearly about how to make the audience be a coherent group. ( There is a theatre in town that moved from a delightful thrust stage to a new theatre. The audience in that space is so cut up with architectural froo-froo that it is not a single group any more, but a collection of smaller groups. Makes the experience less powerful) 
Not thinking about how things / actors move. IE you need to think about how to get the sofa from the prop shop to the stage. How do your actors get from backstage to make an entrance through the audience, etc.
Blackout vestibule coming into the seating space.
No provision for audience desk(s) in the house.
Allowing emergency exits through the theatre backstage spaces ( Sometimes this is unavoidable, but needs to be controlled).
A floor you can not screw into.
A scene shop with a 'Wooden end grain floor' ( at one point prevalent in educational institutions ) They put in 4x4 on end to make a wood floor so you get 3.5 x 3.5 squares of wood. If it gets wet it gets uneven.
Control booths that are hermetically sealed from the stage space. Windows should open.
Not considering railings in sight lines of your seating.
No crossover behind the cyc ( Assuming a proscenium or thrust style of space here ) 
No wing space.
FOH lighting positions you have to crawl to get to, or that you cannot focus without lying on your stomach or crawling out on the plaster
Large acoustical clouds that are not coordinated with the lighting positions. 
Too much technology where a simple solution would work better. ( for example, a multi scene preset house lighting system that is so hard to use that no one knows how to use it)
Inconsistent circuit numbering and doubling.
No downlight positions over the apron.
Electric battens that do not have full travel



As to type of theatre ( black box, thrust, etc) - it depends on what kinds of things you will be doing and what is the purpose of the space. 

Get a theatre consultant involved if this is at all a major renovation - but don't believe that that consultant necessarily knows more than you do about all things. Many consultants are used to doing high school stages and they stamp out the same crappy design over and over again. If you see something you don't like or think is wrong, or looks like overkill - say so early and loudly. 

*But the most important thing to do!*
Work very hard to get yourself into a position where your advice will be listened to. If there is a building committee join it. I have seen many projects where a school builds a theatre and the folks who know the business are ignored. Getting yourself into a position where your voice will be heard is probably the most important thing you can do at this time.

Good luck with the project - and have fun.


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## JChenault (Oct 6, 2010)

A few things that I have seen in theatres I have toured or worked in that I thought were wonderful.


A black box theatre that did not try to do everything, but instead had seats that could be easily configured into one of three arangements - Thrust, Arena, Stadium. Makes it possible to quickly and easily change the seating arrangements without huge additional labor ( and have comfortable seating ) 
In a black box theatre - long catwalks above the space for lighting. Acoustical reflectors on the bottom of the catwalks and multiple sets of pipes cantilevered between the catwalks for lighting ( or light flying ) 
A black box theatre with counterweights at one end so when it was a thrust you could fly something in the background.
Electrics on winches so you did not have to deal with re-weighting when you are hanging lights.
Electric raceways with DMX receptacles so you don't have to run cable all over the place. ( or cat 5 receptacles)
Running empty conduit everywhere you can think of.
In a front of house lighting position with interesting geometry, not trying to figure out the correct location for hanging pipes, and instead putting in vertical pipes, and using horizontal pipes on cheseboroughs. You could adjust the location of your pipe as needed.


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## JBrennan (Oct 6, 2010)

_What do you love about your theatre, and why? _


We are a 3/4 Thrust and have the ability to do a show as such or as straight proscenium show, or both. Also we have fly lines installed downstage of the proscenium allowing us to fly things over the apron or over the thrust which is great. 

Due to budget cuts some of the arbors in this down stage system were never hooked up to battens/lifting lines, so I am able to rig them as spot lines anywhere I need to downstage of the proscenium and still counterweight with iron and train crew to run it as any other fly line would. 

There is a fixed lighting position that runs around the back wall of the theatre about 10' off the house floor that is very handy. 

Full size catwalks, 4' wide. Extremely easy to maneuver and walk around, no crouching, crawling or slithering to get to lighting positions. Also very safe when working with students and people completely new to theatre/heights. 

And this is not in my theatre, but the black box we had when I was an undergrad had a rolling catwalk system that would store at one end of the space and could be rolled along I-Beam rails underneath the grid to hang and focus a light plot. It was the most efficient system I've seen in a black box and made working up there a breeze.

_What do you dislike about your theatre, and why? _


Handicap seating was not thought out very well. It was a last minute addition to the space and makes for an awkward breakup to the flow of the house and poor sight lines for those needing to sit there. 

The theatre department has no control of the green room which is used only for shows renting the space. This is only sad to me for the student's sake. They don't have a place in the building they can gather to hang out, do homework, rest between shows, etc. The best we have is our makeup room which is also a classroom and of course used during shows so frequently unavailable. 

Not being able to use our plenum storage under the audience seating. It was designed as prop storage but no fire suppression system was included or installed and thus it violates fire code to store anything in these areas. They sit huge, open, and unused. 

Our costume shop is insanely small. Ridiculously small. Painfully small. And also used for the majority of our storage. Huge mistake when they planned the place.
_If you had built it, what would you keep and what would you have changed?_


Every theatre I have been in always needs more storage. Storage everywhere. Even if you don't need it now. I'd make every storage place twice as big as I thought I needed it.

Also, and if you make this happen in your scene shop in 5 years I'll quit and come work for you. Windows. In. The. Scene. Shop. If I had my wishes granted we would have huge sky lights in the ceiling, or even going from 2/3rds up one wall and arcing into ceiling. I've only heard of one paint shop in NY that has this, but I think its an insane thing that gets over looked. Spending hours and hours of time in the shop/theatre and not being able to see time pass outside or the weather change really gets to me personally sometimes. Just one window/sky light in the shop would make all the difference in the world.
_If you could have any type of performance space which would you choose: proscenium, black box, thrust, etc.?_

Modified thrust. Which is what we call ours anyway. The ability to preform as a 3/4 thrust or straight proscenium show. 


_What is most challenging about your current space?_

Lighting angles can get a bit steep for action down in the thrust but it's not horrible.

Good luck and I hope you check in now and then and let us know how it turns out over the years.


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## rwhealey (Oct 6, 2010)

I'm working in a black box now and I wish that the architect had hired an acoustical consultant. The reverberation time is about 3x what is comfortable.

Fortunately, we have an excellent consultant who teaches here. I'll start a thread about the experience once we decide what to do.


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## seanandkate (Oct 6, 2010)

Mim said:


> Sean - how high is your grid? just curious


 
It's only 12'6". I'm getting used to top/side-hanging everything . . .


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## mstaylor (Oct 9, 2010)

JChenault said:


> To take a slightly different approach - here are some of the dumbest things I have seen architects / contractors do.
> 
> 
> Put in a low door between the (tall ) scene ship and the (tall) stage.
> ...



John:
There is a HS across the street that I swear you walked through to make your list.


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## Studio (Oct 9, 2010)

*Large Theater: 750 Seat Proscenium Built ~2003
*
Things I like:
-Nice Audio Install as far as parts.
-Good Curtins
-Nice Fly system with plenty of weights already on the loading galley.
-Stairs to FOH Catwalk which is a good 4 feet wide and very safe for new students.
-Plenty of work lights
-Dimmable Backstage "Blue Lights"
-Access to smaller 350 seat theater from the same scene shop.

Things I don't like:
-No access to FOH Catwalk from the Booth.
-Sound Rack/Amps are in the dimmer loft, hard to get to to fix something mid show.
-"Music storage room" causes no wing space SL
-No network access in the Booth, (cause we need 24 ports on stage and another 24 along the mezzanine wall, but none FOH, or in the booth.
-Scene Shop Door -Don't install a door that swings like a regular door. Get a rolling door between your stage and scene shop. The door that was installed is technically 20 feet tall, but has a metal bar at 10 feet and has 4 doors instead of 2. I spent 2 hours with my school's maintenance department and the TD trying to remove said bar, and after 60 minutes of dissembling and pounding we got it off. The way it was designed the bar would come off when the doors were open all the way, the only problem was that the doors were recessed into the wall so they only opened 3/4 of the way.

Let's just say that bar is not going back in. (Note: there is a separate rolling fire door)


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## museav (Oct 10, 2010)

rwhealey said:


> I'm working in a black box now and I wish that the architect had hired an acoustical consultant. The reverberation time is about 3x what is comfortable.
> 
> Fortunately, we have an excellent consultant who teaches here. I'll start a thread about the experience once we decide what to do.


Would that be Bob Coffeen? Is so then you definitely do have a fantastic resource.


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## museav (Oct 10, 2010)

Studio said:


> Things I don't like:
> -Sound Rack/Amps are in the dimmer loft, hard to get to to fix something mid show.


Putting the amps and system processors closer to the speakers is good design practice. Those also should not need to be accessed mid-show if at all. If you are having to routinely access the amps or house system processors that seems to indicate problems other than where the equipment is located.


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## bdkdesigns (Oct 10, 2010)

See, the opening door doesn't bother me. We had some gigantic metal doors in my last place. I never measured them but I would appoximate 40-50 tall and a good 10 feet wide each (two doors each in the opening that open like french doors w/out a center support). Our blackbox had identical doors only they were probably 5 feet wider and only about 16 feet tall.

Fun story when they were building the place (only because noone got hurt). One of the larger doors for the mainstage fell over when they were trying to install it. The force of such a large door falling caused some of the windows in the building across the street to shatter.


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## museav (Oct 10, 2010)

There have been some great responses and there are lots of good 'tidbits' in there that can be invaluable later in the process, however based on my experience you are starting in the wrong direction. Before considering what the facility needs to physically be you should first define what it needs be functionally. Decisions like proscenium versus black box versus thrust are use based, which approach you employ should be based on your intended use and not what others have or do for their use. So maybe start with defining what the users, performances, goals and so on are for the facility and getting a coordinated functional definition for the facility that then forms a basis for many subsequent facility design decisions. There is likely going to be a tremendous amount of coordination between various design team members (Architects, Engineers, designers, etc.) between their work as well as with issues regarding code, budget and other considerations. This is one reason why it is so important to address the functional goals rather than just specifics as when conflicts do occur it is usually much better to be able to focus on maintaining the functionality rather than on maintaining one specific predefined solution. Without starting with a good definition of what you expect or want to be able to do in and with the facility, without first defining your vision for the facility, you are almost doomed to a facility that may not meet your expectations.

Also, you may want to clarify your role as an adviser. It may be important to know if your role is to provide input to the design team, especially any theatre or theatrical system designers, or if you are expected to serve as the 'expert' and designer for those aspects. As a facility and system designer I love having clients that can clearly define their goals and expectations to any relevant parties on the design team. On the other hand, I dread clients that try to be facility or system designers when there are other parties serving in those roles, especially if they have very set ideas and limited experience in the facility design and construction process.


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## rwhealey (Oct 10, 2010)

museav said:


> Would that be Bob Coffeen? Is so then you definitely do have a fantastic resource.


 
Yep!

He's a really great guy - and he's been doing it for a long time. I think he designed several of the lecture halls on campus in the late 60s.

I'm not quite far enough in my program that I'm in his classes, but I'm excited that I can work with him and his grad students on my project.


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## Ric (Oct 11, 2010)

I saw this on another forum and it seems really appropriate here. 



YouTube - The First Meeting.wmv


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## SteveB (Oct 11, 2010)

Probably the best advice I've ever seen in print about how to build a good theater was think of it as a factory, designed with the goal of building a theatrical event in the most cost effective and efficient manner possible. Aesthetics have a place, especially in the presentation of the space to the audience, but the product on stage is just that, a product.

Things I like about out theater, a 2400 seat road house and stuff I'd fight harder for. Not in any order

- Lot's of A.C power in utility outlets available on-stage (and everywhere else), as "pendant" cables - I.E. double duplex 20 amp edison receptacles, some with a pig-tail 2P&G, all on 75ft SOOW cables permanently attached to a distribution box so I don't have to worry about extension cords getting stolen. I have 18 x 20 amp of these outlets. Some are isolated ground, some are on DMX relays. Provide for a lot of A.C outlets, DMX controlled when possible, in every location you could conceivably place any kind of stage lighting.

- A permanent running light system, cross-over lighting, fly rail lighting system, catwalks, grid systems, etc... all controlled from a backstage and other controllers. Provides blue and N/C where needed. Can be on a Unison/Paradigm type control.

- Unison/Paradigm control for works, running, relays, spotting light, assorted powered devices, all from LCD touchscreens at convenient locations. The nice thing about touchscreens is you can re-program the button and screen functionality down the road when the theater changes some functions and needs to add stuff. 

- Ethernet everywhere and more then you can ever consider using.

- Get as many dimmers as possible and scream for more. Do not back down on the numbers of dimmers. At some point somebody will want to use it all. Have every light on it's own dimmer if possible. Have ton's of relay circuits for non-dimmable devices. 

- If a proscenium house, do not back down on the grid height. It needs to be as high as code allows and 2-1/2 to 3 times proscenium height - I believe is the usual ?. Do not let them take this away as a cost saving as it's crucial to making the space work efficiently. If they want motorized winches for electrics, that's great if you always have the electrics on the same pipe. Or winch the whole system and make them put in a lot of winches. I'm a big fan of winches currently as we have all our electrics motorized and it's a labor savor. Not totally sold on regular linesets, but I do like simply being able to load a pipe and press UP. 

- If a proscenium, cut a 1/4" groove US to DS, back wall to pit edge, filled with the same material as the floor (Masonite, tongue and groove wood, etc...) as a center line mark. Makes life really simple when looking for a measurement point. Do the same L/R at piaster line. 

- Put in hot and cold running water near the stage, with a drain/sink. Do not make companies/events that need running water run hoses to some place remote in the building. Washer/Dryer for a tour ?. Doing a show needing a running sink or shower ?, an ice show ?. 

That's it for now.


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## MNicolai (Oct 11, 2010)

I really mean this in the nicest way possible, but I've never worked with an architect or theatrical consultant I didn't want to shiv in the back. Usually one has trouble working with the other, or the consultant gets listened to but none of the contractors care, not understanding how integral they are in final outcome of the facility, and next thing you know you've for the lift lines from the main curtain rubbing on the side of a sprinkler pipe, eventually sawing a hole in it after 6 years.

The entire process blows my mind away, because the program never ends up being what it was supposed to be, the architect is more concerned about the visual aesthetics of the building, the EE has never worked on a theatre before, and the theatre consultant hasn't _worked_ as a regular stagehand in two decades. When something idiotically stupid becomes a problem, one of those parties sues the others.

Now _we're_ the ones who look like dingle-fritzes because the front of the building has said "Ocono_____rts Ce_____" for the last six months because the signage lighting broke and everyone wants to sue someone else to avoid having to fix it themselves. Meanwhile, we look incompetent to the tax-paying citizens that built the place because it looks like we don't know how to change some light bulbs.

We also have a couple school board members checking the box office website everyday, counting up tickets and asking why we aren't selling more seats when the seating was decided for the facility not based on community-size, but on student-body size. They wanted to fit half the student body in at once so they could do a morning assembly for the first half and an afternoon assembly for the second half, but in the end it was all a moot point because the school board doesn't want students in there anyways because they think they'll destroy the place.

All of us staff members are just trying to hold on for dear life while the roller coaster continues to seemingly careen off of the tracks, a problem compounded by the fact our one full time person ruptured a tendon last week doing something out of the kindness of his heart that was beyond his job description. Oh, and in the midst of it all, the district IT staff, having solved all other problems in the district, has chosen to make their latest battle be "Who's administering the arts center's Facebook page and what happens if they fall of the face of the planet?"

There are days when the only thing keeping the box office manager and I showing up to the game is our fearless leader. Without us, the district wouldn't care, and he'd take on three times the workload he's already undertaking.

School districts and performance venues will never not be a weird relationship, no matter how the bid spec, program, fine print, design statements and renderings appear.

Just the other day I got yelled at for fixing a problem with one of our dimmer racks because I warned the grounds crew I'd have to shut down the dimmer racks for a while but that it shouldn't disrupt business. Despite having interned at ETC, sat in on NFPA 70E training with David North, and telling them I'd be on the phone with tech support at the manufacturer, they panicked and thought I'd ruin the warranties and destroy the equipment. After I played the "The superintendent's not going to like when she doesn't have lights for her event tomorrow" card, I finally got their attention to let my job done, but only after what shouldn't have been more than a blip on their radar turned into flippin' intercontinental ballistic missile involving a lot of people standing around in the room while I did my work, all who had much better places to be and no helpful advice to offer.

I can literally go on for hours about ways I've seen facilities screwed up or have heard about them being screwed up, but to be completely honest I'd rather go get a hernia. All the checks and balances in the world won't prevent your facility from ending up uniquely flawed in ways that will boggle your mind. Unless you've got $300,000,000 to drop on your theatre, it's the same fate all of the rest of us are doomed to.

And there comes a time when the arguments aren't worth having anymore. "But why on earth did you ever think that'd be a good idea in a roadhouse" you'll shout, and "we weren't building a roadhouse, we were building a high school auditorium," they'll calmly respond while never wanting to talk to you again. Next thing you know, you've got a fire curtain that just drops in whenever it feels like it and a stage floor made out of CDX because in no design meeting did it ever come up what type of floor the stage should have and the consultant hides behind the architect who says nothing more than "Well, we really didn't give that much thought."

(No, seriously, I'm shutting up now.)


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## zmb (Oct 11, 2010)

Off what MNicolai said, even with a dedicated voter bond and joint school district-outside foundation ownership, a facility that has been used from worldwide touring acts to my junior high's spring play to elementary music nights will _still _have flaws. I am guessing that many professional theatres have their own flaws too.


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## museav (Oct 13, 2010)

MNicolai said:


> I really mean this in the nicest way possible, but I've never worked with an architect or theatrical consultant I didn't want to shiv in the back. Usually one has trouble working with the other, or the consultant gets listened to but none of the contractors care, not understanding how integral they are in final outcome of the facility, and next thing you know you've for the lift lines from the main curtain rubbing on the side of a sprinkler pipe, eventually sawing a hole in it after 6 years.


Mike, I understand your frustration but much of what you noted is not so much a matter of the individual parties as it is of the process. Theatres are special spaces but too many times their design, construction and even operation and management gets approached like other facilities with which some of the parties involved are familiar. Too many projects are much like the video clip earlier in this thread, you initially have to make guesses as to what is really wanted only to have that second guessed throughout the process until you finally get someone who can tell you what they are really wanting who is looking for something totally different than what was initially defined.

Many people also do not realize that Consultants often have no control over what actually ends up happening on projects, all they can really do is make recommendations based on the information they are provided. If the Owner can not define what they want then the Consultant has to guess based on whatever information they can gather. Other parties inserted between the Consultant and Owner may filter the Consultant's recommendations or requests. Contractors may be asked to provide or offer alternatives and Value Engineering options that are accepted regardless of whether the Consultant supports, or is even aware of, them.

Also keep in mind that it is quite common for the planning of a theatre or auditorium to start some years before the facility opens. As a result, many times both the people involved and the goals for the venue may change over that time period. Changes to the functional requirements or goals for the facility can typically be accommodated fairly easily during initial planning, with greater difficulty during the design process, with even more difficulty during bidding and are sometimes virtually impossible once construction has started. Unfortunately, I have been involved with numerous new facilities where the actual operators and managers were not involved, or even hired, until well into the process. On some projects the first time I was able to speak with the TD or any of the tech staff was literally during the final systems' inspections and too often those people's vision of the facility turn out to be quite different from that defined back when things could have been easily changed.

The point I'm trying to make is how critical it is to focus on the team, process and overall goals first. Worry about how and when things should be defined and how to ensure their being followed through before worrying about what to define. Perhaps I can sum in that I have had multiple Owners and Architects express the belief that if a Consultant does their job then they are guaranteed a good result. That's a bit like saying that a good script guarantees a good show regardless of the director, cast, crew, etc., much less regardless of how much you edit it. The reality is that everyone has to do their part, at the right time, in the right order and with good communication, for it to all come together. No project or building is perfect, but with the right people, process and attitudes, they can be very good experiences for everyone involved even when they are challenging.


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## Mim (Sep 12, 2012)

I really appreciate all of the info and advice on this thread. I knew before I initially posted that the approach was not standard procedure. I've observed the design and construction of another venue (not with my current employer) so I am aware of many prevailing practices - but used this post as a way to detail the process for the directors and visionaries so that I was not speaking alone. I requested that they backtrack their process to acquire a consultant before settling on budget numbers, and although we still have numbers they prefer to work within - we've just begun working with the consultants, so positive progress is ahead! Thank you everyone!


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## techietim (Sep 15, 2012)

A few questions regarding technical theatre and your specific venue/s. 
What do you love about your theatre, and why? 
_It's big! Plenty of kit and big stores for technical stuff like the Lighting and Sound equipment_

What do you dislike about your theatre, and why?
_Not much, the fact that our rehearsal rooms are actually down the road is a bit unfortunate, it's also a relatively old building_

If you had built it, what would you keep and what would you have changed?
_Move the rehearsal rooms into the theatre and modernise backstage, create a crew room_

If you could have any type of performance space which would you choose: proscenium, black box, thrust, etc.?
_No preference_

What is most challenging about your current space?
_Space! In places there isn't very much of it!_

Any other input would be certainly appreciated as I will be soon be handed an advisory position on a new project that is 5 years out, and want to be certain I am covering as many scenarios and issues I possibly can.
_Somewhere for the crew to 'chill' before or after shows or even during rehearsals/the day would be a really good idea. Hungry techies = very bad!_


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## Brandofhawk (Sep 30, 2012)

I typed up a whole response to (just about) every question you asked for the three theaters I worked in at college which I grew to know over time... and then I decided that I'd rather just throw in some ideas / thoughts about the subject. A lot of good suggestions that I like, and wouldn't have thought of have been said here.

So here are my two cents. 

In college we had a tension grid. It was awesome, made hang go quick and easy, but made focus a nightmare because the support I beams were always in the way of a quarter of the hanged instruments meaning there was a significant amount of time needed to adjust to get the right shot to the stage. But with the right planning could be avoided. Tension grid also helped to teach students proper techniques, allowing for a more knowledgeable hand to stand by and supervise new lighting techs and help if the need came. (Much harder to do with a ladder/lift.) The other option of course being a catwalk where the same can happen, but the catwalk gives less options for lighting angles. 

If you're thinking of a fly system, make sure there is a professional rigger to maintain the rig and get it checked out constantly. And make sure that no one operates it who is untrained/not properly aware of how the system works. In college, in the basic training part of the introduction to tech class they would tell students how to operate in a 5 minute session, but not explain the system fully and that always scared the piss out of me. I don't think that a student has ever used it without getting a better training first but still... they never said what the real danger with the system is.

Also depending on size, it would probably be a good idea to get large equipment closets which can be locked to store older equipment that always is kept around a theater when the newer stuff dies or any special need arise. Of course, storage is always a large concern including the ability to get it from point A to point B. 

I also agree with others in saying that Ethernet and DMX should be placed everywhere, along with standard Edison circuits (planning for the move from conventional to led? or even just to support some accessories.) Including the middle of the house. 

In a blackbox theater they recently built on campus for the visual arts grad students (they are like ... techno-artists/hippys) they built in empty conduit everywhere they could. A lot of it is filled now, some to the point of max capacity.. and the space is now two or three years old. It also has cable pass throughs to allow cables to run through walls as opposed to through a door way potentially getting crushed/cut in the door. Thought that the conduit was nice, and that the pass through was a very neat idea in more ways than one. 

In short: 
Tension Grids, good for educational facilities
Fly Systems NEED constant attention from properly trained individuals
Storage storage storage (what theater do YOU know of that has all the storage they need?) 
Ethernet, DMX, Power, all over everywhere. 
Cable management: Conduit for expanding, pass through to get around doors/walls. 

These are my thoughts. Some were alittle borrowed from other posts though 

I feel like there are a lot of things which I have encountered in the theaters I've worked at which I've taken for granted that could have simply not been designed or included ever. I'm going to try to figure out what those things are and then give a silent thanks to the person who designed/consulted/built/etc.


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## Tex (Nov 18, 2012)

If you're going to specify a Wenger Diva shell, design a place for it to live that doesn't take up wing space.
When you get a date of completion from the general contractor, add about four months to that and then schedule your first real event.
These are a couple of thoughts after a tough week...


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## venuetech (Nov 18, 2012)

A Freight elevator large enuf to get a 9' concert grand piano in. having that offers so much more flexibility than having to use the apron/pit lift each time something needs to go between the stage and trap room.

and about the apron/pit lift DO NOT have this hydraulically operated, as that tends to bleed off till it needs to be re-leveled on a consistent basis. we called this burping and it is no fun when you are on a ladder or AWP.


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## DuckJordan (Nov 18, 2012)

or use a centralized pump, ours is hydraulic with self leveling sensors to control valves.


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## Footer (Nov 18, 2012)

Well, if we are going to bring this thing back from the dead....

Don't put two theatres in a giant ****ing egg.


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## avkid (Nov 18, 2012)

What do you love about your theatre, and why?
It's on the beach, designed by world famous architects, built for Vaudeville so you need no amplification if you can sing.

What do you dislike about your theatre, and why?
No shop space or inside crossover.

If you had built it, what would you keep and what would you have changed?
Definitely keep the dome and terra cotta, a proper loading dock would be most useful.

If you could have any type of performance space which would you choose: proscenium, black box, thrust, etc.?
Proscenium, If I want a thrust I build it.

What is most challenging about your current space?
Vintage fly system and no installed dimming.


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## chausman (Nov 18, 2012)

Ohhh... I finally have a theater to talk about! (This is probably not an exhaustive list, and certainly not in any specific order. (Oh, and I'l love to keep talking about the strangeness of our theater if anyone is really interested))

*What do you love about your theatre, and why? *
The place was designed to expand, much beyond the scope of the original TD.
I have power, mic inputs, speaker outputs, and coms run everywhere. There is also district wide network/building wide CCTV run in many places. (I do wish that the Network had a home run to the booth instead of an electrical closet which we have no access to.)
We have a good number of dimmers, and good lighting positions.
Lots of power available power, with all of our power coming straight into the dimmer room.
Good acoustics for a high school

*What do you dislike about your theatre, and why? *
The seats are too close together, meaning it's hard to fit a table on the seats to run a show from the house.
The booth has windows, that don't open very far.
Our houselights are slow and not very flexible.
*Our fly system is too short!* (and the curtains too tall (The legs are about an inch above my head, and the travelers can only fly about 4'))
We have 12 dimmers along the upstage side of the proscenium... and 12 dimmers total for the 2nd catwalk.
Our inventory is rather dated lighting wise
The center cluster is too high vertically, and sounds rather ...crappy.
The way it is situated with the rest of the building, the fire doors and a large accordion door in the commons could be perfect for shows, that could be completely seperate from the rest of the building, and allow backstage to be separate from the lobby...but it isn't. Completely
Shop is too hard to build in (long and skinny)
The blackbox space is too small (IMO)

*If you had built it, what would you keep and what would you have changed?*
I would have a more useful distribution of dimmers. I don't need 12 dimmers along the proscenium, and way more then 12 for our 2nd catwalk.
The way it is situated with the rest of the building, the fire doors and a large accordion door in the commons could be perfect for shows, that could be completely seperate from the rest of the building, and allow backstage to be separate from the lobby...but it isn't. Completely closing the divider would lock patrons in the wrong part of the building, away from restrooms, and everything else. The fire doors should be moved about 6' to the other side of the side door.
The booth shouldn't have windows.
There is no good crossover.

*If you could have any type of performance space which would you choose: proscenium, black box, thrust, etc.?*
I prefer proscenium spaces.

*What is most challenging about your current space?*
Finding open dimmers in the catwalks.


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## MPowers (Nov 18, 2012)

Footer said:


> Well, if we are going to bring this thing back from the dead....
> 
> Don't put two theatres in a giant ****ing egg.



I seem to recall, that's why I turned down a job there in '83 ....or '84....! Been a while. didn't really like the egg concept.


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## Footer (Nov 19, 2012)

MPowers said:


> I seem to recall, that's why I turned down a job there in '83 ....or '84....! Been a while. didn't really like the egg concept.


''

Now, your bigger issue there is that was under the NYSTI regime... and that thing did not end so well when it finally went away. You dodged a bullet there. 

When you are in the space you don't actually know your in an egg. The fly house is all square and there is no building weirdness. The major issues with the building is our freight elevator and the fact the venue is on state property. Because of the state thing every truck that enters our dock has to have security clearance. Our freight elevator is 40 years old, 24' wide, 9' deep, and 24' tall. It has electrics in it and can serve as the US portion of our smaller space. It and one other 9' diameter round elevator are the only things that hit our loading dock. Being 40 years old and a custom job it is not exactly running right. About every 3rd show we end up loading out through the little elevator because the big one died... and let me tell you how much fun it is to walk full stage rugs down stairwells... 12 stories. This summer they are doing a full rebuild on it at a cost of about 2 million, so hopefully then it will be stable. 

So, point of this whole rant... if you are going to build a 55 million dollar building, make sure you can maintain a 55 million dollar billion. That statement there is pretty much the entire issue with the 1.7 billion dollar (and that is in 1970's dollars) complex I work on.

Oh, and most of our lighting rig is original to building. Fun.


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## museav (Nov 19, 2012)

Footer said:


> So, point of this whole rant... if you are going to build a 55 million dollar building, make sure you can maintain a 55 million dollar billion. That statement there is pretty much the entire issue with the 1.7 billion dollar (and that is in 1970's dollars) complex I work on.


Beyond a physical facilities operations budget, I've been involved in numerous facilities that start planning, design and even construction without any real consideration for staffing. I've gotten to where I believe some people think an arts center or community center runs itself or can be operated by the maintenance staff until they actually see that doesn't work.

Then as opening gets near they eventually realize they need someone to manage the facility. And that person then convinces them they need someone to coordinate booking, scheduling and sales. Often the last one in, and sometimes after opening, is a Tech Director. It is so backwards when those parties should be the very people helping define the vision for the venue.

I'm going out to meet today on such a project. The AV Contractor got behind and apparently as a result pretty much left everyone else out of the loop. The venue still has no TD, they currently contract tech services, however I am meeting the Facility Manager for the very first time today, well over a month after the venue opened. And his primary question is that he has no idea what he is supposed to have because no one explained it to him or put us in contact. It being a government project greatly explains it but I've had similar experiences woth other projects as well. And as often happens in such situations, the original general intent for this venue was local community events, regional touring acts, etc. By opening they had an arrangement with a local theatre group and two local colleges and that is now essentially a resident troupe, a significantly different situation than what was initially defined.


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## cpf (Nov 19, 2012)

As other people have said, you cannot underestimate the importance of the manager/promoter/booking person.

The space I'm in has a laundry list of technical downfalls, results of everything from budget cuts to the fact that most of the technical aspects were designed by an architect and contracted out to a home theatre installer. 

But over the three years since open (and still without an official TD), it's grown to become the most popular venue in the region for "high end" shows, and nearly every group that's booked in have had a successful show/run, and have came back the following year wanting to book again. 

So, the lesson being, if you miss the opportunity to make your venue technically excellent, be sure to make up for it in the choice of people promoting and running it.


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