# Automatic/Resistive rope locks. What are your thoughts?



## Protech (Jun 2, 2017)

There a number of Rope Locks on the market which automatically "lock" when an unbalanced load is detected. These range from very simple, to quite complex, and they can add considerable cost to a counterweight rigging system. Some have indicators showing the extent of the overbalance, foot pedals for "overriding" them, or require you to overcome the force of the over balance before it can be unlocked, among other features.

We currently do not produce such a product, but I've kicked around the idea and we have a few design concepts. A small number of Theater Consultants really like them, whereas others seemingly do not. Still, we're starting to see them being specified more often these days. 

Having never worked in a venue that was equipped with them, I don't have much of an opinion on their utility. 

On one hand, I would agree that such a device is adding some additional safety to the operation of a counterweight set. I know of at least one run-away scenario that may help to prevent.

On the other, I can see them being a pain when dealing with heavy soft goods, tall scenery, etc - and there is the fact that if you are not well trained, you shouldn't be operating the rigging system to begin with. Relying on the rope lock to hold an unbalanced load is incorrect, and having such a device may impart a false sense of security.

I can see both sides. 

Lastly, while we discourage this practice (and refer to rope locks as LOCKS rather than BRAKES), a lot of venues operate line sets by using the rope lock to slow and stop its travel. Some automatic rope locks will engage the "brake" if this is attempted, bringing the line to a very abrupt stop. I don't know of any accidents caused by this, but doing so would at the very least be noisy and a unnerving with much momentum. 

Do you have any experience with these devices, and what are your thoughts?


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## derekleffew (Jun 3, 2017)

Surprised this tope hasn't garnered more interest.

Protech said:


> ...We currently do not produce such a product, but I've kicked around the idea and we have a few design concepts. A small number of Theater Consultants really like them, whereas others seemingly do not. Still, we're starting to see them being specified more often these days.


I see them as almost mandatory for all educational facilities.

Thirty-some years ago, I enjoyed, for the most part, working with a Tiffin foot-pedal "deadman" system. It had its quirks, but I was able to outsmart it and do some pretty stupid things, including flying my then roommate from a makeshift bosun's chair for focus: I chuckle every time I think of hearing him yell, "Slow down! I'm not an act curtain!"

The major problem with that system is that it didn't tolerate slack in the purchase line very well, and the floating floor block s were in an arbor pit in the basement. Also, even a too-long ribbon spike could activate the lock, even with the pedal depressed. The other major problem was the cost. We could have had many more lines for the same amount of money, and infact did add five or so lineset s without the deadman, which of course caused some confusion among the freshmen.

For my conflicting view, see https://www.controlbooth.com/threads/tiffin-scenics-restrictor-rope-lock.31737/#post-288526 :

derekleffew said:


> As said above, if your primary concern is preventing unauthorized use, there are more economical options.
> 
> The Restrictor's primary purpose is to prevent a runaway, which it can be argued won't happen with competent personnel. The keylock is secondary.
> 
> The Tiffin version I used in the 1980s was unsatisfactory. Slack in the line would cause it to lock, tape and ribbon spike s could trigger it, and most annoying, it used a foot pedal as a deadman. If I had to specify today for a non-professional venue, I would look at a traditional rope lock that has the provision for a padlock's hasp (and I think almost all modern ones do) and a JR CLancy SureStop Headblock or similar.


Although having never used one, I think I like the idea of an "invisible" (or "passive"/unobtrusive) safety device. Do everything correctly and you'll never know it's there. Imbalance an arbor and it will save your bacon before you have a runaway. According to the marketing propaganda, at least.


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## techieman33 (Jun 3, 2017)

I can see where they would be good in a high school, or community theater situation. For a professional venue it would really be up to how the device worked and how easy it was to bypass it for those times that you are intentionally out of weight.


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## danTt (Jun 4, 2017)

My biggest concern with these types of locks (especially in a high school) is that they have the potential to provide a false sense of security/disaster when the people using the locks at that venue expect all locks everywhere to function the same.


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## porkchop (Jun 4, 2017)

Recently was talking to a local pro that helps out at the university theatre. He said they had just experienced their third runaway THIS SEASON. If I was over there automatic locks would be the first line item on the repair estimate.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Jun 4, 2017)

porkchop said:


> Recently was talking to a local pro that helps out at the university theatre. He said they had just experienced their third runaway THIS SEASON. If I was over there automatic locks would be the first line item on the repair estimate.


Or first action is to shake up faculty/staff. Three in one season seems almost inexcusable.


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## techieman33 (Jun 4, 2017)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> Or first action is to shake up faculty/staff. Three in one season seems almost inexcusable.



Agreed. One could be an accident, three is just inexcusable. Someone either wasn't doing there job, or wasn't trained how to do their job.


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## Footer (Jun 4, 2017)

I had them on our electrics in High School. I HATED them. First, you could not throw weight with the lock open... which is by far the safest way to load an electric. Second, they locked up on nearly every spike mark that they hit. Not worth the cost. If you are concerned about safety, either train better or install automation.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Jun 4, 2017)

I discussed this subject with PROTECH before it was posted here and decided not to share my opinion here at least for a while, but a agree motorizing is the solution and future. Never out of balance, major hazard eliminated.


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## JonCarter (Jun 4, 2017)

danTt said:


> My biggest concern with these types of locks (especially in a high school) is that they have the potential to provide a false sense of security . . .


 HEAR, HEAR!! Don't depend on supposedly idiot-proof hardware. TRAIN PEOPLE PROPERLY! Raise 'em in a hemp house and they'll think about what's going to happen when they untie something! The best safety device ever invented is between the ears! Teach your crew to use it.


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## Dover (Jun 4, 2017)

In the same vein as Bill, I see these as a tough sell for new educational installs.
The major advantage of a manual rigging system is its simplicity and low cost. These type of locks erode that advantage with their high cost and complexity and at the same time could pose a liability problem if they were proposed but not installed due to cost. And given that there are still significant safety risks associated with the operation and loading of manual counter weight systems no matter what locks are used it makes sense to cut a few linesets and automate the rest and eliminate the risk altogether.


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## danTt (Jun 4, 2017)

Dover said:


> In the same vein as Bill, I see these as a tough sell for new educational installs.
> The major advantage of a manual rigging system is its simplicity and low cost. These type of locks erode that advantage with their high cost and complexity and at the same time could pose a liability problem if they were proposed but not installed due to cost. And given that there are still significant safety risks associated with the operation and loading of manual counter weight systems no matter what locks are used it makes sense to cut a few linesets and automate the rest and eliminate the risk altogether.


I'm not convinced automated linesets are the best for educational either. Your cost of upkeep is much higher, and while a counterweight system can be eighty years old and still perfectly fine with only minor amounts of upkeep, I do not anticipate seeing the same longevity out of an automated system, especially when you include the (usually terrible) control interfaces that rigging systems love to provide. I've seen some automated installs recently with a paradigm-esque touch panel on the wall--but no deadman toggle. Because what could possibly go wrong with someone pushing a button to fly in a pipe and walking away to do something else as it flies in?


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## danTt (Jun 4, 2017)

Footer said:


> I had them on our electrics in High School. I HATED them. First, you could not throw weight with the lock open... which is by far the safest way to load an electric. Second, they locked up on nearly every spike mark that they hit. Not worth the cost. If you are concerned about safety, either train better or install automation.



I'm going to disagree with you that loading an electric with the lock open is the safest way to do it. The safest way is to load any batten is to do the math regarding how much weight is on it, lowball it by 90-100lbs, and then test and adjust from there. Leaving the lock open suggests that a qualfied flyman is standing by the set to grab it as soon as it starts to "float" and there isn't a best practice in the world that would suggest that standing right below people loading weight is the safest solution. It's certainly a regular and well used solution, but the weight of lights are known quantities. Even if you only load for instrument weight, you are close enough to test move the batten and estimate cable weight, while standing a safe distance away.


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## derekleffew (Jun 5, 2017)

Footer said:


> ... First, you could not throw weight with the lock open... which is by far the safest way to load an electric. ...


Never in nearly forty years have I ever heard of this practice. The only time the lock should be open is when the batten is moving, or about to (in stand-by).


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## RonHebbard (Jun 5, 2017)

derekleffew said:


> Never in nearly forty years have I ever heard of this practice. The only time the lock should be open is when the batten is moving, or about to (in stand-by).


@derekleffew @JonCarter @Logos @oldgeezers at large; In at least one venue I've worked, it was common practice to load LX pipes with the lock open and the flyman well out of the way. The competent loader would be told a safely low estimated weight, load that amount then test and add from there. The moment the loader could manage to 'grunt' the set whatsoever, he'd call down to the flyman who'd request any additional weight from there as the flyman would understand how much cable-weight was yet to be added along with how many pick lines were picking the cables including picks on cables coming from the opposite rail. This was in an old-fangled road house with single purchase arbors and hemp spot lines for cable picks being located as, and wherever, required.
Here's my most interesting run-away story. I won't name the venue or even its city.
A venue had a dark week which coincided with a week of heavy snows. When the crew returned, the most U.S. black traveller which had been parked out to the grid, was piled appreciably into / onto the deck. Purportedly there hadn't been any shows and no one on stage.
Cutting to the chase:
Apparently during the week, one of the night watchmen / city's security guards felt the need to add a little weight to the trunk of his rear wheel drive vehicle. While passing through the stage area on his nightly rounds, he came across neatly stacked collections of iron weights. Over the course of several nights, he borrowed a couple of weights and took them out to his car at the end of his shift.
You can see this coming: One night after he'd departed, the now appreciably under-weighted heavy velour traveller slipped through the lock until enough of the velour was resting on the deck and balance was restored. I believe I've heard of a similar tale occurring out on Prince Edward Island one winter during 'Anne of Green Gables' off season. Of course this could be just another old wives' tale too, you never know.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.


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## techieman33 (Jun 5, 2017)

I've always seen electrics loaded with the lock open and always done so myself. I can estimate what an electric will weight all day long but that doesn't mean I'll be right. At least with the lock open you'll know real fast if you threw on a brick or two to many. If it's locked you might not find out until 100lbs+ when it starts to slip through the lock or the rail operator goes to test and and takes a ride or tears up their hands trying to stop it. I find it especially important with touring shows. I can't count the number of times that their paperwork has been off by 100+ pounds one way or the other.


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## RonHebbard (Jun 5, 2017)

techieman33 said:


> I've always seen electrics loaded with the lock open and always done so myself. I can estimate what an electric will weight all day long but that doesn't mean I'll be right. At least with the lock open you'll know real fast if you threw on a brick or two too many. If it's locked you might not find out until 100lbs+ when it starts to slip through the lock or the rail operator goes to test and and takes a ride or tears up their hands trying to stop it. I find it especially important with touring shows. I can't count the number of times that their paperwork has been off by 100+ pounds one way or the other.


@techieman33 *Speaking in favor:* If you're loading in and hanging a busy road show. You may have one or two (or more) flymen on the operating rail plus two or more loaders on the loading floor simultaneously loading multiple LX, and other, pipes. This speeds up the whole practice / procedure of getting pipes in the air and the deck cleared to erect scenery or lay dance floor. It was normal practice to have loaders adding weight as soon as there was any appreciable quantity of instruments on any given pipe. In the days of PAR 56 and PAR 64 X-Rays with three and / or four colors of glass rondels, a deck crew could put several hundred pounds on an empty pipe in mere moments and they hadn't even begun adding jumpers and multi-cables yet.
*Agreed:* Locks open and flymen out of the way while loaders added weight per the flyman's directions but *ALWAYS* tested for any sign of 'floating' along the way. A skilled loader may be amongst the junior members of the crew but he'd better KNOW HIS JOB and be paying attention. Often one or two flymen could keep three or four loaders busy simultaneously.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Jun 5, 2017)

danTt said:


> I'm not convinced automated linesets are the best for educational either. Your cost of upkeep is much higher, and while a counterweight system can be eighty years old and still perfectly fine with only minor amounts of upkeep, I do not anticipate seeing the same longevity out of an automated system, especially when you include the (usually terrible) control interfaces that rigging systems love to provide. I've seen some automated installs recently with a paradigm-esque touch panel on the wall--but no deadman toggle. Because what could possibly go wrong with someone pushing a button to fly in a pipe and walking away to do something else as it flies in?



I'm sympathetic to your points but believe it is a natural and safer direction. Yes, schools especially have gotten away with little maintenance of theatre equipment in general and that will change with motorized rigging. But everything else has also increased in it's complexity - cars, houses, appliances, etc. Why should entertainment technology not also move forward, especially when there are likely safety benefits? And yes, just like other equipment in schools, annual maintenance contracts will be necessary.


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## Malabaristo (Jun 5, 2017)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> I'm sympathetic to your points but believe it is a natural and safer direction. Yes, schools especially have gotten away with little maintenance of theatre equipment in general and that will change with motorized rigging. But everything else has also increased in it's complexity - cars, houses, appliances, etc. Why should entertainment technology not also move forward, especially when there are likely safety benefits? And yes, just like other equipment in schools, annual maintenance contracts will be necessary.



Also, in some ways I feel like it's easier to make that inspection/maintenance actually happen annually with a motorized system. How many schools have gone decades without an inspection to their manual system because, "Eh, it's just some ropes and pulleys..."? The added complexity of a motorized system can help make the argument in those cases.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Jun 5, 2017)

Malabaristo said:


> Also, in some ways I feel like it's easier to make that inspection/maintenance actually happen annually with a motorized system. How many schools have gone decades without an inspection to their manual system because, "Eh, it's just some ropes and pulleys..."? The added complexity of a motorized system can help make the argument in those cases.


Or the LCD screen and/or yellow "service required" light? I admit I've thought about a box on the wall that is a timer and a light for an otherwise purely manual system. Clearly the people responsible for managing high school theatres need all the help possible to get the attention needed to stay safe.


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## Protech (Jun 5, 2017)

Thank you to everyone for the interesting discussion!

The issues with maintenance for both automated and counterweight systems is topic for another discussion, but suffice to say we've seen some scary situations with both. We've provided the "service required" indicators, and very rarely have they resulted in a phone call. As I mentioned in our "manual backup" discussion, we find people running automated sets with line-contactors all too frequently. There's a fine line between "idiot-proofing" a system and locking them out (and thus motivating them to find a way around it; operating the equipment even more dangerously).


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## Footer (Jun 5, 2017)

derekleffew said:


> Never in nearly forty years have I ever heard of this practice. The only time the lock should be open is when the batten is moving, or about to (in stand-by).



Two things here... first we are a double purchase house. So, if the road LD is off by 50#, the flyman has to wrestle a lot more inertia then that 50#. Second, have you actually ever met an R&R LD who actually knew his or her weight and wasn't widely over or under weight? Usually they are way over. The shows I get it tend to be club tours and used to hitting house truss, not house pipe... so they never know their weight. I have literally been told by LD's "its under ton". I don't have time to calculate their fixture weight, plus figure out how much cable is on their looms. 

In this method I can have guys throw weight, we can be loading up two battens on the deck at the same time, and the second the set gets close to balance you feel the pipe slightly float and you are all set. Most LD's have no idea what the hell a counterweight system is, how close they have to get their weight, or how to safely work around that system. 9 out of 10 shows I have to keep the LD's away on the out so they don't start ripping fixtures the second the pipe hits the deck.


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## RonHebbard (Jun 5, 2017)

Footer said:


> Two things here... first we are a double purchase house. So, if the road LD is off by 50#, the flyman has to wrestle a lot more inertia then that 50#. Second, have you actually ever met an R&R LD who actually knew his or her weight and wasn't widely over or under weight? Usually they are way over. The shows I get it tend to be club tours and used to hitting house truss, not house pipe... so they never know their weight. I have literally been told by LD's "its under ton". I don't have time to calculate their fixture weight, plus figure out how much cable is on their looms.
> 
> In this method I can have guys throw weight, we can be loading up two battens on the deck at the same time, and the second the set gets close to balance you feel the pipe slightly float and you are all set. Most LD's have no idea what the hell a counterweight system is, how close they have to get their weight, or how to safely work around that system. 9 out of 10 shows I have to keep the LD's away on the out so they don't start ripping fixtures the second the pipe hits the deck.


*In support of everything you said. *
Touring, club level, LD's largely tend to think in terms of ground support.
Next they relate to chain motors and think in terms of tons.
They MAY get the hang (Pardon my inadvertent pun) of single purchase but definitely NOT double purchase.
And you are DEFINITELY RIGHT when it comes to them stripping weight off your pipe(s) the instant they've come in, possibly while still descending, and DEFINITELY before the loaders have even begun removing weight, let alone stripped the arbor down to pipe weight. Education, communication, decorum, respect and understanding are all key to keeping people alive, uninjured and equipment in condition to light another performance.
*Blind geezer calming down.* Rant off.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.


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## Footer (Jun 5, 2017)

RonHebbard said:


> *In support of everything you said. *
> Touring, club level, LD's largely tend to think in terms of ground support.
> Next they relate to chain motors and think in terms of tons.
> They MAY get the hang (Pardon my inadvertent pun) of single purchase but definitely NOT double purchase.
> ...



And while we are at it... we had a show advance last year carrying a video wall that wanted to hang it on house rigging. It was a 40 panel wall weighing 1100#.... and they saw we have 1200# capacity pipes and couldn't figure out why we wouldn't hang it. Spent a solid week fighting with a promoter to get them to pay for truss and motor rental.


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## RonHebbard (Jun 5, 2017)

Footer said:


> And while we are at it... we had a show advance last year carrying a video wall that wanted to hang it on house rigging. It was a 40 panel wall weighing 1100#.... and they saw we have 1200# capacity pipes and couldn't figure out why we wouldn't hang it. Spent a solid week fighting with a promoter to get them to pay for truss and motor rental.


 @Footer Forgive them Lord for they know not. They probably know not knot neither. Please forgive me if I've skirted too closely to religion or is that only a ProSound decree? Lord only knows.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.


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## rphilip (Jun 6, 2017)

Footer said:


> It was a 40 panel wall weighing 1100#.... and they saw we have 1200# capacity pipes and couldn't figure out why we wouldn't hang it.



As some one not versed in either touring shows or theatrical rigging why not hang it if their weight figure was accurate? 

Philip


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## Footer (Jun 6, 2017)

rphilip said:


> As some one not versed in either touring shows or theatrical rigging why not hang it if their weight figure was accurate?
> 
> Philip



The way you build video walls is from the top down... while hanging. So, you bring in (or float out) the truss, hang hangers on the truss, level the hangers, hang the first layer of screens, fly the truss out a bit, hang the next layer, out a bit, next layer. Due to that, the weight that hangs on the truss is always changing. With a counterweight system that can only access the arbor when the pipe is into the deck this means you have to put all the weight on the arbor and slowly take out the batten as the wall gets "built". This means for most of the build you are wildly arbor heavy... which can cause a run-away lineset and mass destruction. Chain motors can handle the dynamic weight changes... counterweight linesets can not. 

Not the best video, but here is the overall concept...


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## bobgaggle (Jun 6, 2017)

JonCarter said:


> Raise 'em in a hemp house and they'll think about what's going to happen when they untie something!



I learned in a hemp house, with natural fiber lines. Loved picking splinters out of my hands after a show, can't imagine why the industry moved on


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## RonHebbard (Jun 6, 2017)

bobgaggle said:


> I learned in a hemp house, with natural fiber lines. Loved picking splinters out of my hands after a show, can't imagine why the industry moved on


Slivers from clean fresh hemp were the worst since they took so long to fester.
Slivers from dirty old used hemp festered sooner and the sliver popped out with the puss when you pinched it.
This may sound gross but it was far less punishing to your fingers and palms. One good pinch and problem solved versus tearing away layers of skin with your other hand or digging deeper and deeper with the end of your trusty Buck. Carrying your Buck was mandatory as it was on your IA tool list.
Blind geezer out. Rant off.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.


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## RonHebbard (Jun 7, 2017)

rphilip said:


> As some one not versed in either touring shows or theatrical rigging why not hang it if their weight figure was accurate?
> 
> Philip


@rphilip & @Footer 
Philip; Did Footer's post & video fully answer your query or would you benefit from a further explanation, especially in light of Footer's mention of his house having a double purchase system? I realize Control Booth treads a fine line between being openly educational while being cautious of liabilities. Personally, I suspect @Footer may have a little more room to post further educational info' and explanations without putting himself and CB too far over the line if he's willing to, without awakening the wrath of @derekleffew What say you @Footer ?
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.


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## rphilip (Jun 7, 2017)

RonHebbard said:


> @rphilip & @Footer
> Philip; Did Footer's post & video fully answer your query or would you benefit from a further explanation, especially in light of Footer's mention of his house having a double purchase system?


Yep

I've actually helped build video walls a couple of times. I just hadn't made the connection about not being able to add weight once you start flying the pipe up. 

I don't totally understand what extra complications the double purchase creates but that's ok.

Philip


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## venuetech (Jun 7, 2017)

rphilip said:


> I don't totally understand what extra complications the double purchase creates but that's ok.



https://www.controlbooth.com/threads/double-purchase-fly-system-question.40986/#post-354090

See Ron's post #8


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## RickBoychuk (Jul 17, 2017)

The arbor trap is a new device which is designed to prevent runaway line sets that are arbor-heavy. Unlike the out-of-balance detecting rope lock, the trap conforms with the ANSI 1.4. With patent pending, it is licensed to five manufacturers in the States: JR Clancy, Thern Stage Equipment, H&H Specialties, Peter Albrecht Company and BellaTEX. Only BellaTEX is shipping at the moment. Clancy is scheduled to ship at the end of summer. The others are not yet scheduled. See the arbor trap at work at http://www.gridwellinc.com/arbor-trap.html. Spoiler alert; nothing happens.


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## porkchop (Jul 17, 2017)

RickBoychuk said:


> The arbor trap is a new device which is designed to prevent runaway line sets that are arbor-heavy. Unlike the out-of-balance detecting rope lock, the trap conforms with the ANSI 1.4. With patent pending, it is licensed to five manufacturers in the States: JR Clancy, Thern Stage Equipment, H&H Specialties, Peter Albrecht Company and BellaTEX. Only BellaTEX is shipping at the moment. Clancy is scheduled to ship at the end of summer. The others are not yet scheduled. See the arbor trap at work at http://www.gridwellinc.com/arbor-trap.html. Spoiler alert; nothing happens.



I'm assuming your involved with this company, I would suggest that you dumb things down on your information page a bit more. I think I have a pretty good idea how your system works but a video that spells it out in gratuitous detail might help to sell your product.

It seems like a decent idea and I like that it's out there, but I do have some questions. I get how this would help when the pipe is in all the way in, but does this offer any runaway protection from other trim heights? Is there any protection against a batten heavy runaway? If the arbors in my theater are at different heights for loading (say the arbor for my electrics is 6" below the height for the rest of the pipes) do you have custom spacers to drop the arbor trap for the lineset down to where I need it or is an additional run of channel necessary? If for some reason I want to change the trim that loading is done on a batten can the user relocate the arbor trap to this new height or must that be done by a rigging specialist familiar with your equipment?


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## BillConnerFASTC (Jul 18, 2017)

I'm going to respond from my view of considering this device. I see it as primarily for high schools and primarily electrics. I'd estimate from my work and listening to others stripping electrics at low trim is easily half the runaways, maybe more, especially on stages without loading bridges. Stop that and you've solved a lot of the problem.

I personally would not recommend this for a system run by pros but that's me. I can see the house that routinely strips and rehangs, but I don't like enabling that shortcut.


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## de27192 (Jul 20, 2017)

I can see the benefit of this in an education scenario, however, I think the flip-side of that argument would be that teachers may become reliant on the fact that the automatic rope lock is there, and pay less attention to the balancing of the bar and the arbor. First priority needs to be that the teacher is paying attention and I would be concerned that whilst a safety feature like this might benefit the users, it might also feed complacency which is potentially more dangerous.

In a professional theatre, just no. I fly daily and there are so many times that we need to work out of balance - if only momentarily. Particularly for soft goods, or indeed large sets which need to lie flat on the floor before they're lifted. Having to have the loaders running up and down the ladders all day to chuck more weights in the set would introduce fatigue and increase likelihood of error.

I can see though how it would benefit electrics, since electrics bars don't need to pick up changing weights. However, since the electrics bars change from show to show, unless an automatic rope brake could be easily added to and removed from the existing rope brake, and moved around on a show-by-show basis.

I have to put my hand up and admit that I'm guilty of using my rope brakes as brakes, but sometimes it's the safest way to work. But I'm in a very busy receiving house and we can afford to replace our hemps regularly more than we can afford to slow down the get ins, so it's just an accepted practice.


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## Relentless Rigging (Aug 8, 2017)

If 50lb rope locks were invented today, and somebody suggested replacing automatic/resistive rope locks with them, it would be a non-starter. And I say that having installed countless 50lb locks. 

Here's a brief performer flight and landing on a *portable* counterweight system with a deadman pedal, that sets up in 30 minutes. There's no reason that a theater lineset should be harder to operate safely than this:


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## BillConnerFASTC (Aug 8, 2017)

Interesting counterfactual. You could make a similar case for the front loading arbor, arguably a better investment for safety.

I think that motorizing will probably make this a moot issue before there is much change. According to a friend, two riggers from Holland, where manual counterweight is nearly outlawed for the hazards of lifting and loading weights and systems are motorized, were surprised to learn we were still installing manual counterweight in new build.


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## Relentless Rigging (Aug 8, 2017)

I hear you, Bill. 

Counterweight systems have literally not improved in 90 years. It's just like selling 1927 Model A's in 2017. 

A motivated designer could surely improve on a century old theater rigging design. Look at that off-the shelf portable system in the video I linked. It's a top-to-bottom redesign of counterweight rigging. It fits in a suitcase, it's performer rated, and costs half the typical installed batten lineset. 

Motorized systems have their place. But they have risks too. I just repaired a foh motorized set that bent its own head and mule block struts into scrap because the house guys reset the limits. 

They're great for LX sets in some settings. 

Motorized systems that can duplicate the subtlety of CW systems are hugely expensive, require high skilled operators, and even then have safety issues that load cells and slack line detectors don't eliminate. And they take advance programming. A flyman with a $10,000 lineset often can easily do on first try what an $85,000 winch has trouble with.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Aug 9, 2017)

Somehow I don't think a 2000 pound electric will fit in a suitcase, and partly humor but partly scaling what works for a single performer hoist to a full stage rigging system isn't a straight line.

There are probably better systems for many things from construction of buildings through taxes, but I don't think our current rigging systems are so deficient that a major change is warranted. And as you pointed out, counterweight rigging is pretty mature. You say 90 years and it seems little changed for hundreds to me. Motorized in the mainstream is only a decade or two, with lots of room to evolve, a lit more room than counterweight.

And while what a person and a good counterweight set can do is amazing, it's labor intensive for a full stage compared to possibilities if motorized. Also, I looked at Cirque and similar productions and don't think they could be done if not motorized.


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## Relentless Rigging (Aug 9, 2017)

Bill have you ever seen an off-the-shelf system do this? These are not even riggers and the system was weighed for the woman, 30lbs lighter. 

This CW system exists because an innovative design team set goals. User-friendly, self-contained, self-plumbing, positive pedal lock, retractable liftline etc.

If your consultancy made an equally innovative approach to manual theater linesets you could advance them from 1927 Model A technology to 2017 Toyota safety and usability.

That nobody else has done it in 100 years is all the more reason to do it.


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## Jay Ashworth (Aug 9, 2017)

derekleffew said:


> I see them as almost mandatory for all educational facilities.



I understand your motivation there, Derek, but I have to disagree.

*That's not what you're training people for*.

This is the old "do we put ashtrays in the no-smoking restroom anyway, so people don't burn up our TP dispensers" question, to an extent. Or, more to the point, it's "NFL football is so dangerous *because of* all the padding and safeties"; it is, in the final analysis, a false sense of security: you're training people that it's safe to be more careless, when out in the Real World... it's not.

"Your scientists were so busy thinking about how they could, that they didn't stop to think about whether they should." -- Ian Malcolm


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## Relentless Rigging (Aug 9, 2017)

That's an argument for rear wheel drive cars with drum brakes, steel dashboards and no seat belts.


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## RonHebbard (Aug 9, 2017)

Relentless Rigging said:


> That's an argument for rear wheel drive cars with drum brakes, steel dashboards and no seat belts.


 @Relentless Rigging Are you suggesting there's a problem with this? My 1970 Chevrolet Kingswood Estate Wagon took me everywhere I pointed it including into the rear bumper a a fellow in front of me when I fell asleep, but that's another story. 
Maybe I should've had the radio turned up louder and more windows open?
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Aug 9, 2017)

Relentless Rigging said:


> If your consultancy made an equally innovative approach to manual theater linesets you could advance them from 1927 Model A technology to 2017 Toyota safety and usability.
> 
> That nobody else has done it in 100 years is all the more reason to do it.



As I noted, I've done very manual counterweight in new builds recently, so I have done something in getting clients to move into the 21st century by motorizing. It seems what you are promoting would allow an out of balance condition and would require more than 50 pounds on the rope lock, which I believe is contrary to the ESTA standard and normal practice - and I'm simply not going to take on that liability. If its important to you, work to get the standard to allow it.

That something has not changed in 100 years, does not automatically make it bad or wrong. (Cooking dinner over a campfire in a cast iron dutch oven comes to my mind.) I'm still waiting to see the cost benefit analysis of this kind of change at the end of the era of manual counterweight rigging. I don't know if its 10 years or 50 years but installing counterweight in new build is coming to an end that is not that far off. Yes, motorizing will have to improve, but it has improved so much in the last 20 years I have no worries it will continue and as the market (continues to) expand, I'd guess the pace will increase. And I'm not convinced that a high school with all motorized rigging can't do more than one with counterweight simply because of the man hours and skills needed. And I note the things motorized can do well - like handle premature stripping of an electric or building a video wall piece by piece. And it seems to handle performer flying pretty well also, and at higher acceleration and speeds than manual.

Besides, I don't like to do R&D with my clients budget. I like tried and tested and accepted technology. I don't want to tell a client that "no one has ever done it like this before" when there is a hitch. Let manufacturers with much deeper pockets and much more potential reward build some and offer it for less as a way to get it in the field.


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## MNicolai (Aug 9, 2017)

Jay Ashworth said:


> *That's not what you're training people for*.



Well, what are we training people for? Life as an independent rigger right out of high school? Probably not.

The hard truth here is that most students who work on their school's shows will not go onto technical production as a career. The ones that do will sooner rather than later be in an environment where someone will be hand-holding them through their rigging systems, whatever they may be. Zero percent of them will start out their career as independent riggers. Any TD who encounters them on their overhire crews should know better than to let their youngest crew members loose on their counterweight sets without training and supervision.

Most schools don't want students touching the rigging at all anyway. Designing rigging systems with the express intent that they provide professional-grade experience even if it comes with extra hazards under the guise of career development is misguided. Students are more likely to be brought into the professional art and technology of theater through acting, production design, set construction, lighting, and audio than anything to do with the lifting mechanisms above the stage. To that end, if having motorized rigging with safety mechanisms like load cells and slack line detection means schools can comfortably give students a little more leeway in how they use these theaters than we're one step closer to fostering in a students a career interest in this industry.

--

As for motorized v. counterweight, in all likelihood the prices for motorized & for automated sets will come down over the next several years. It'll still be subject to the cost of materials and won't see the decline that LED's have realized over the last 10 years, but great strides have been made recently in bringing the overall _new construction installed_ cost down compared to counterweight. Once that comes to a little more fruition, it'll be even more compelling once combined with the lowered operating costs of not having to spend money on all the labor of shlepping bricks day in and day out.

The trend toward motorized/automated isn't going to be staved off by any nostalgia for counterweight systems or the idea that any day some VC startup is going to revolutionize the way we think about counterweight systems with disruption and without adding costs. Counterweight will, by its nature, have far-reaching implications on requirements for structure and installation that motorized has already begun to address.


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## Jay Ashworth (Aug 9, 2017)

Wait.

I seem to be getting replies that suggest people think I object to motorized rigging.

That wasn't the post I replied to. I was solely talking about automatic braking line-locks.

As for what people are being trained for, I tend to assume they're being trained for what is in the real world -- which is mostly traditional rope-locks, right? I don't see that we do *the people who will do the work* any favors by training them on stuff that mostly isn't deployed, and I'm perfectly happy, for the record, with "no one touches the flyrail until you're signed off" -- we're not *trying* to avoid stupidity; we're trying to avoid accidents from trained people (with these fancy stoppers) (as far as I can see).


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## de27192 (Aug 10, 2017)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> surprised to learn we were still installing manual counterweight in new build.



I agree, I do not think that counterweight should be specified for new-build theatres.

It is lifting machinery and whilst it is hand-operated, it is operated in a manner where the operator can easily lose control and the system continue with the lift. There is no emergency stop button. This makes it hazardous to a point where I feel it's difficult to justify it at all, nevermind justify designing it into a system.

You always hear the flymen whinging that you can't feel it snag on a cloth or whatever. But that 'feel' is just replaced with visual information instead. Used responsibly I don't feel that powered flys loses anything but offers a lot of safety benefits to both the operator and others working on stage. It should be on the cards for all major theatres to upgrade to powered flys.


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## Jay Ashworth (Aug 10, 2017)

Absolutely. The check for my theatre will be... oh, $150k or so; you can make it out to...


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## RonHebbard (Aug 10, 2017)

de27192 said:


> I agree, I do not think that counterweight should be specified for new-build theatres.
> 
> It is lifting machinery and whilst it is hand-operated, it is operated in a manner where the operator can easily lose control and the system continue with the lift. There is no emergency stop button. This makes it hazardous to a point where I feel it's difficult to justify it at all, nevermind justify designing it into a system.
> 
> You always hear the flymen whinging that you can't feel it snag on a cloth or whatever. But that 'feel' is just replaced with visual information instead. Used responsibly I don't feel that powered flys loses anything but offers a lot of safety benefits to both the operator and others working on stage. It should be on the cards for all major theatres to upgrade to powered flys.


 @de27192 Oh you're making me feel so much older and just when I got comfortable with those new fangled cast iron weights replacing my sundaes and leaky sand bags!
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Aug 10, 2017)

In a high school, not one centered on the arts, I'm not sure what's best for the staff and students while there doesn't override concerns about training for after school.


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## JonCarter (Aug 10, 2017)

I began my theatre work on a crew in a Jr. High (not one centered on the arts) built in the '30s with a counterweight system. We learned VERY fast to apply some common sense to batten loads and c'weight numbers. Then high school (again not one centered on the arts) built in the early '20s. Hemp house with about 30 line sets and 2 (count 'em, 2) sand bags. We learned VERY fast that if you're moving things, you'd better know what's on the batten and who's on the line set with you. College was a dream. Auditorium built in the late '50s. Counterweigt system except for the light bridge, which was powered. Again: a bit of common sense re: batten loads vs. counterweights and no problems. (Outdoor theatre interspersed with the above. Whee! No flies, but lotsa rain on the electrics!) Then a few years in a community theatre plant built in the '40s--counterweight system--common sense re: batten loads & weights--no problems. Then a couple years as TD for a children's theatre company which used a Jr/.High's auditorium. Counterweight system. Worked with high school crews. We ran a lot of shows, including a production of 'Peter Pan' which ran on weekends for 5 years. Three people flying, 2 spot lines w/2 operators for each. Harnesses sewn out of canvas by the costumers. Never dropped one. _ THINK_ what will happen when you move something (or for that matter, do anything).

Common sense. The most important safety device you have is the one between your ears.


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## Jay Ashworth (Aug 11, 2017)

Oh ghod... someone's mentioned home-grown flying... 1/4


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## RonHebbard (Aug 11, 2017)

JonCarter said:


> I began my theatre work on a crew in a Jr. High (not one centered on the arts) built in the '30s with a counterweight system. We learned VERY fast to apply some common sense to batten loads and c'weight numbers. Then high school (again not one centered on the arts) built in the early '20s. Hemp house with about 30 line sets and 2 (count 'em, 2) sand bags. We learned VERY fast that if you're moving things, you'd better know what's on the batten and who's on the line set with you. College was a dream. Auditorium built in the late '50s. Counterweigt system except for the light bridge, which was powered. Again: a bit of common sense re: batten loads vs. counterweights and no problems. (Outdoor theatre interspersed with the above. Whee! No flies, but lotsa rain on the electrics!) Then a few years in a community theatre plant built in the '40s--counterweight system--common sense re: batten loads & weights--no problems. Then a couple years as TD for a children's theatre company which used a Jr/.High's auditorium. Counterweight system. Worked with high school crews. We ran a lot of shows, including a production of 'Peter Pan' which ran on weekends for 5 years. Three people flying, 2 spot lines w/2 operators for each. Harnesses sewn out of canvas by the costumers. Never dropped one. _* THINK*_ what will happen when you move something (or for that matter, do anything).View attachment 15106
> Common sense. *The most important safety device you have is the one between your ears.*


 @JonCarter Oh silly me! When I first read "Outdoor theatre interspersed with the above. Whee! No flies, but lotsa rain on the electrics!" my initial take was '*No flies?* How odd! I'dve thought lights in an outdoor theatre would've attracted flies like crazy' similar to "moths to a flame." It was several hours later when it dawned on me you meant an outdoor theatre with no flown line sets / scenery et al. How dumb I felt to have glanced over it and thought immediately of bugs and the associated constant maintenance. Oh dopey me!
For 13 years, 1964 - 1977 I used to co-maintain a 10Kw commercial AM transmitter site in farming country outside of Hamilton, Ontario. On cooler spring and fall evenings the bugs were clamoring for the heat of the building escaping from the densely screened air vents. When you drove down the lane to the TX building in the midst of the six towers, you learned to rapidly unlock, enter and re-close the door before turning on the interior work lights as you'd basically need to fight your way through the swarming flying bugs frantically fighting for access.
Outdoor theatre and no flies. Please forgive my momentary lapse.
I think the line that will stick with me from your post is:
"*The most important safety device you have is the one between your ears.*"
I know it's the one that allowed me to service two 10 Kw transmitters on dark lonely nights and live to tell about it.
Yes, of course I know we should *ALWAYS* have had a buddy with us when working inside either of the transmitters but people do take vacations and maintenance does go on. I can already hear the chastising I'm about to receive but, in my opinion, I'd rather be alone servicing gear I'm familiar with than in the company of someone totally unfamiliar with the cautions required when working within comparatively high voltage / high RF power level environments.
In 13 years I only received one RF burn and that was due to making an adjustment to a air-cored tuning coil out in an ATU at the base of a tower when the engineer in charge barked on the wireless "Plates are OFF" seconds before he'd actually pushed the "Plates OFF" button. I still remember the aroma of my scorched flesh and I also learned to have Les keep his mic keyed on so I could hear the reassuring clank of the contactors once he'd actually pushed the "Plates OFF" button.
There's ALWAYS something to be learned. Sometimes you learn how to do something and sometimes you learn how NEVER to do something. Both are equally valuable lessons.
I'll relinquish the lectern and descend from the podium.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.
(The daffy old blind geezer)


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## JonCarter (Aug 11, 2017)

RonHebbard said:


> @JonCarter Oh silly me! When I first read "Outdoor theatre interspersed with the above. Whee! No flies, . . ."


 We didn't have many files, but the mosquitoes were pretty fierce at times. And there's nothing like trying to focus in a light rain--asbestos leads love to soak up water. Everything sizzled a bit. One learned fast to work w/one hand in pocket and wear rubber soled shoes. Painting with stage paint was fun, too. Often had to re-paint things after a good rainstorm. We finally switched to casein paints in about 1956.


RonHebbard said:


> For 13 years, 1964 - 1977 I used to co-maintain a 10Kw commercial AM transmitter site . . .


 Directional array, eh? When in high school I worked weekends at a local radio station in Cleveland. It was the "black" radio station, and my staff anncr. and I were the only two white guys at the outfit. We worked the Sunday shift when all the nationality shows were on. the Polish, Slovenian, Czech, German, Russian, etc., show hosts wouldn't work with black crews. Studio & transmitter at one location--5kW non-directional. Never had to get into the backside of the transmitter when it was "hot" tho.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Aug 11, 2017)

Automatic rope locks to ancient radio transmitters? Oh my.


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## RonHebbard (Aug 11, 2017)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> Automatic rope locks to ancient radio transmitters? Oh my.


 @BillConnerFASTC @JonCarter @derekleffew @dvsDave @What Rigger? @Jay Ashworth @TJCornish @FMEng @MNicolai @de27192 @Relentless Rigging @TheaterEd @StradivariusBone and @ ALL OTHERS [As if]
Perhaps the significance / importance of Jon Carter's post was lost or skimmed over. In any event I strongly believe it and suggest it bears repeating; *Quoting Jon Carter: *
"Common sense: *The most important safety device you have is the one between your ears.*"
Whether you're working alone or as part of a team.
Whether you're following the rules to the letter or violating every rule in sight.
Whether you're teaching / working / learning in an educational environment or have been at your trade for decades.
Whether inspectors are on the job site that morning or known to be in another part of town.
I postulate @JonCarter 's guidance *should prevail*.
One more time: "Common sense. *The most important safety device you have is the one between your ears.*"
Thank you @JonCarter for the benefit of your experience and wisdom.
Thank you @BillConnerFASTC for prompting my reiteration of what I firmly believe is a concept of paramount import.
Quoting @BillConnerFASTC : "Automatic rope locks to ancient radio transmitters" As Mr. Conner astutely points out: 
Mr. Carter's basic guidance stands the test of time in a great variety of arts, crafts, trades and situations.
Thanks again ALL for raising this to the forefront and keeping it there for the health, life and longevity of all.
As always:
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.


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## JonCarter (Aug 11, 2017)

Wow! Thank you, Ron! That's the nicest thing anybody's said about me this week.  Or maybe in several weeks.


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