# Rigging does wear out



## BillConnerFASTC (May 22, 2017)

I have a little project where they knew something was amiss with the rigging - 30 or so linesets from the 1960's I'd estimate, wire guided arbors, from a manufacturer long out of business, and from an era where most parts were cast iron from scrap, basically ignoring a lot of metallurgy good practices. Looks like it was installed just a day after they stopped using clove hitches to attach the 6x7 wire rope to the battens. They said they wanted to do it right but I don't think they knew it was more than some adjustments, lubrication, and maybe wire rope. Facilities people get cold or hot, and understand the boiler or ac has to be replaced. Black water down the hall, and plumbing has to be replaced. But try to tell them rigging has to be replaced and you'd think you were asking them to replace the dirt under the footings, which they would do if there was a pollution issue. So I present three options from fully motorized to all dead hung, in the $100K to 500K range, and only then do they say they are thinking $20K.

So, just a reminder that rigging does wear out. I tell my clients today that without motors but with basic maintenance, 50 years except 10-20 yrs on curtains, probably 25 on track. I don't want to talk about motorized rigging life because almost no one would install it.

My point is don't get mislead into believing non-motorized rigging lasts forever.


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## barry.a.nelson (May 22, 2017)

This is Deja Vu. I come across this all the time. Recently I have been pushing Rigging inspections so that the proper authority within a organization knows where their system stands and can plan for updates or maintenance.


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## Van (May 22, 2017)

A huge, and growing, part of our business is rigging inspection. The pictures and horror stories that come back from the field are often jaw dropping. Then, so often, as Bill said, they freak out at what it's going to cost replace. You do run across the occasionally, well-maintained system where someone actually "Get's it".


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## Footer (May 22, 2017)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> So, just a reminder that rigging does wear out. I tell my clients today that without motors but with basic maintenance, 50 years except 10-20 yrs on curtains, probably 25 on track. I don't want to talk about motorized rigging life because almost no one would install it.



We did our entire system 2 years ago after 37 years online and it was pretty worn. One of my biggest issues with motorized rigging is the lifespan. Our pit system is controlled by 3 huge relay cabinets and a ton of limit switches... we can't hardly get anyone to work on it because no one knows how to troubleshoot it. As encoders age, limits wear out... and PLC's simply stop getting supported these large automation installs are going to have some major issues. Unless we become like the elevator industry that bascially swaps out all the electronics at regular intervals we are going to be in a world of hurt in 20 years. One of the reasons we didn't install any automation in that rigging project was I knew the powers that be wouldn't want to support it.


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## RonHebbard (May 22, 2017)

Footer said:


> We did our entire system 2 years ago after 37 years online and it was pretty worn. One of my biggest issues with motorized rigging is the lifespan. Our pit system is controlled by 3 huge relay cabinets and a ton of limit switches... we can't hardly get anyone to work on it because no one knows how to troubleshoot it. As encoders age, limits wear out... and PLC's simply stop getting supported these large automation installs are going to have some major issues. Unless we become like the elevator industry that bascially swaps out all the electronics at regular intervals we are going to be in a world of hurt in 20 years. One of the reasons we didn't install any automation in that rigging project was I knew the powers that be wouldn't want to support it.


 @Footer Are your pit lifts hydraulic, screw jacks, scissors or, if you're lucky, Spira-lifts?
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.


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## Footer (May 22, 2017)

RonHebbard said:


> @Footer Are your pit lifts hydraulic, screw jacksl, scissors or, if you're lucky, Spira-lifts?
> Toodleoo!
> Ron Hebbard.



Screw jack


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## RonHebbard (May 22, 2017)

Footer said:


> Screw jack


Thank you @Footer. I understand and you have my sympathies.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.


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## Amiers (May 22, 2017)

I would say it's not the "us" that don't get it yet the people above us. They see it working thus doesn't need to be replaced. 

Harping that it needs to be fixed or upgrade falls on deaf ears. Until it is to late which needless to says sucks.


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## BillConnerFASTC (May 22, 2017)

Amiers said:


> I would say it's not the "us" that don't get it yet the people above us. They see it working thus doesn't need to be replaced.
> 
> Harping that it needs to be fixed or upgrade falls on deaf ears. Until it is to late which needless to says sucks.



Yes, but users are sometimes their own worst enemies in my experience. Many times when faced with budget challenges in the planning and design stage of a project, it's the users who volunteer to accept less - fewer, lower quality, smaller, whatever - than I have recommended. In the case or replacement and maintenance, the users continuing to use the systems simply enable the "people above us" to not accept the need to replace it. I know it's tough as an employee to have to make waves, but the potential consequences of not are also significant. 

Be smart, act calm, express dire concern for safety, use the "its for the children" line conservatively, and convince the powers that be to hire a consultant that won't cave. Keep in mind a sales rep is only going to seem to be self serving in recommending large expenditures, and too often offer to scale back what should be done in order to sell something.


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## BillConnerFASTC (May 22, 2017)

Footer said:


> We did our entire system 2 years ago after 37 years online and it was pretty worn. One of my biggest issues with motorized rigging is the lifespan. Our pit system is controlled by 3 huge relay cabinets and a ton of limit switches... we can't hardly get anyone to work on it because no one knows how to troubleshoot it. As encoders age, limits wear out... and PLC's simply stop getting supported these large automation installs are going to have some major issues. Unless we become like the elevator industry that basically swaps out all the electronics at regular intervals we are going to be in a world of hurt in 20 years. One of the reasons we didn't install any automation in that rigging project was I knew the powers that be wouldn't want to support it.




I just oversaw the replacement of controls on a 20 year old Gala spira-lift, a project that I had been the consultant on originally. (God, this is the second one of these - a lighting system replacement and now a major lift renovation.) After a lot of study and research, came to the conclusion to replace the controls - every electrical/electronic piece from feeder to motor, not the motor. The Gala device is conservatively rated for like 25,000 operations which in all but a pro-show in Vegas is a long time (say 5 cycles a week which is a lot when it sits unused for a month or two, 250 year, 100 years ....) so just had it inspected and minimal service. Otherwise, works like new with touch screen controller, presets, a much more precise controller, and more interchangeable parts.

I have more reservations about a screw jack and especially the caissons (but something makes me think yours are above grade???) than I do a Gala but the wear is measurable., and screw jacks in industrial applications go hundred of thousands operations, far more taxing than a pit lift. It is hard to find the right people. Darn few pit lift technicians.


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## AudJ (May 22, 2017)

Hmm- the system you describe in the original post is exactly what exists in my building installed in '55 - clove hitches and all. They get it inspected every few years by the same person, who says "if it ain't broke..." 

2 pipes don't have enough arbor to support the weight of the architect-designed lighting system, so half the fixtures have to be moved elsewhere (Altman fresnels - nothing heavy). Lost a grant because the pipes we wanted to use to support equipment didn't have enough capacity.

Drives me nuts when I tell administration what needs to happen, and the "expert" disregards.


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## BillConnerFASTC (May 22, 2017)

AudJ said:


> Hmm- the system you describe in the original post is exactly what exists in my building installed in '55 - clove hitches and all. They get it inspected every few years by the same person, who says "if it ain't broke..."
> 
> 2 pipes don't have enough arbor to support the weight of the architect-designed lighting system, so half the fixtures have to be moved elsewhere (Altman fresnels - nothing heavy). Lost a grant because the pipes we wanted to use to support equipment didn't have enough capacity.
> 
> Drives me nuts when I tell administration what needs to happen, and the "expert" disregards.



Well, the system I saw was definitely broke, bent lock rail (where hit by runaways) and all. Many battens were bent, some loft blocks hanging by chain, curtains in tatters, and a fire safety curtain that would definitely not close. I think for you it's time to get a new inspector. You know, its theatre, and we kill the messenger.


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## AudJ (May 22, 2017)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> I think for you it's time to get a new inspector.



Low bid. Government facility.


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## BillConnerFASTC (May 22, 2017)

AudJ said:


> Low bid. Government facility.


And they like him/her because they don't cost them any money.


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## egilson1 (May 22, 2017)

Did an inspection today and all the rope locks were very loose. When tightened to get appropriate holding pressure it added to much drag to the system when you tried to operate it. Turns out the handle 
and the corresponding surface on the lock cam were worn down from years of use, preventing the lock from applying enough pressure on the hand line. 

Moral of the story is even hard metal wears down with friction and time.


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## Footer (May 24, 2017)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> I have more reservations about a screw jack and especially the caissons (but something makes me think yours are above grade???) than I do a Gala but the wear is measurable., and screw jacks in industrial applications go hundred of thousands operations, far more taxing than a pit lift. It is hard to find the right people. Darn few pit lift technicians.



All the machinery for both my pits is built very well... most are Ford truck parts. Its the electronics we have issues with. The umbilicals for our seating wagons always have issues. Limit switches slip or don't make contact. Trying to get the powers that be to start looking at installing a PLC and going that direction. Over the years I have kicked out the company that used to maintain it and just started doing it myself. Every time they came in things would get worse. And yes... it is nearly impossible to find someone out there who can actually work on this. All the theatrical contractors in the area look at it and run...


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## Van (May 24, 2017)

Is the center post a hydraulic dampener?


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## JohnD (May 24, 2017)

Since stage lifts and the problems with upkeep has come up how about RCMH.
https://www.asme.org/about-asme/who...-radio-city-music-hall-hydraulically-actuated
The pit:


The stage and you can make out the orchestra lift, the 3 cross stage lifts and the revolve which spans the 3 lifts:


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## Footer (May 24, 2017)

Van said:


> Is the center post a hydraulic dampener?



Its actually just a guide. From what I'm told there is no fluid it it... it just there to keep the whole thing square. I have two pits there and they both have very tight tolerances for a 1960's design.


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## RonHebbard (May 25, 2017)

Footer said:


> Its actually just a guide. From what I'm told there is no fluid it it... it just there to keep the whole thing square. I have two pits there and they both have very tight tolerances for a 1960's design.


@Footer Are you saying you have two pits, one in each of two venues or do you have two lifts in your larger space and none in your second space?
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.


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## venuetech (Jun 6, 2017)

So just what is the expected service life of a new install fly system?


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## BillConnerFASTC (Jun 6, 2017)

For manual counterweight, I think 50 years is not an unreasonable expected life. That assumes a good design and install, with all pieces properly installed and aligned. Have to have a good loading bridge. Access for regular inspection will help extend life. It also assumes the system is operated and maintained well. A thorough annual inspection will add years. If you crash three sets each season, all bets are off. Probably should expect to change handlines three times but may get away with twice depending on use and environment. If you build scenery on stage, that will shorten life. Properly used and not abused , the lift lines should last but a few are likely to be damaged and need replacement.

Curtains - probably should be replaced three times (install and replace twice) in that 50 years. My preferred curtain track will probably last 50 years with basic maintenance and new ropes after 25 years. 

Anything motorized is different, especially the newer "packaged hoists". I just don't know. I can't believe the controls will go more than 25 years and maybe not 15 for simple dumb fixed speed systems. Variable speed less. And if you have more than simple up down controls, I'd expect the console to go a max 15 years - maybe only 10 or maybe it will go 20.

And annual maintenance mandatory for motors.

YMMV


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## venuetech (Jun 6, 2017)

My problem is one or two squeaky headblocks . The bearings are "permanently lubed" and there is no easy way of getting oil to them. It is hard to justify replacing the headblock for want of a few drops of oil.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Jun 6, 2017)

venuetech said:


> My problem is one or two squeaky headblocks . The bearings are "permanently lubed" and there is no easy way of getting oil to them. It is hard to justify replacing the headblock for want of a few drops of oil.


Are you sure its the bearings? You might try a torque wrench on all of the bolts and see if that "aligns" things a little better, and be sure it's not something else rubbing. Easy if you have good access, not so easy at all if you don't. Even old sleeve bearings rarely squeaked, even if the holes in the side plates had become elongated. Almost always something rubbing side plate.


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## venuetech (Jun 6, 2017)

Got a ladder up to it today. No visual indicators point to rubbing on the cheeks. I can see 1/2 of the outside edge on the sheave, no wear there. This is main drape, 1985 install, Clancy, well hung space. steady squeak that may or may not happen. Although just recently it has become very persistent. Of course it did not make a sound when the system was recently inspected.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Jun 6, 2017)

And there is no doubt the noise is from the headblock?


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## venuetech (Jun 6, 2017)

Will not be able to pinpoint that till I can get an extra hand, hopefully next week.


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## RonHebbard (Jun 6, 2017)

venuetech said:


> Will not be able to pinpoint that till I can get an extra hand, hopefully next week.


Sometimes a medical style stethoscope can be your friend. Of course we have many 'new age' tools 'n toys to chose from but sometimes a simple stick in your hand can convey the sounds of internal mechanical noises to within range of your hearing.
*NOTE:* I'm NOT suggesting anyone sticks a stick their ears. Sometimes a stick mechanically conveying sounds / vibrations to the exterior bottom of a waxed cardboard beverage container can be your friend. A little McGyver'ing isn't necessarily a bad thing so long as you're not being too dumb about it.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.


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## venuetech (Jun 7, 2017)

Ha, I should have said extra ears as I only have one that works. And that needs an aid so I cannot tell where a sound is coming from.


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## StephIsabel (Jun 7, 2017)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> I have a little project where they knew something was amiss with the rigging - 30 or so linesets from the 1960's I'd estimate, wire guided arbors, from a manufacturer long out of business, and from an era where most parts were cast iron from scrap, basically ignoring a lot of metallurgy good practices. Looks like it was installed just a day after they stopped using clove hitches to attach the 6x7 wire rope to the battens. They said they wanted to do it right but I don't think they knew it was more than some adjustments, lubrication, and maybe wire rope. Facilities people get cold or hot, and understand the boiler or ac has to be replaced. Black water down the hall, and plumbing has to be replaced. But try to tell them rigging has to be replaced and you'd think you were asking them to replace the dirt under the footings, which they would do if there was a pollution issue. So I present three options from fully motorized to all dead hung, in the $100K to 500K range, and only then do they say they are thinking $20K.
> 
> So, just a reminder that rigging does wear out. I tell my clients today that without motors but with basic maintenance, 50 years except 10-20 yrs on curtains, probably 25 on track. I don't want to talk about motorized rigging life because almost no one would install it.
> 
> My point is don't get mislead into believing non-motorized rigging lasts forever.




THANK YOU. This is a battle I am currently fighting- rigging which has not been maintained, mostly due to a lack of funding. We are in the process of replacing a motorized sound shell, which will allow us to replace our non-motorized battens. THAT will hopefully be a start toward a better system overall.


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## Stoickthelesser (Sep 13, 2017)

This is something my colleagues and I have been trying to persuade our school system of. We have a mix of single-purchase, double-purchase, and motorized systems, but none of the schools with manually operated ones have loading bridges. I can't fly any individual thing that weighs more than what I can haul unassisted, since I have to take the pipe all the way out to load the arbor, and light hangs are a downright Sisyphean endeavor, since the pipe has to travel every couple of instruments or fly unbalanced.

System is from ~1988, and it's not the worst-rigged school in the area. Of course, the guys who raise the biggest fuss lose their fly systems entirely and get dead-hang forced on them.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Sep 13, 2017)

Lack of loading bridge in a manual counterweight system is just about criminal in my no so humble opinion on this matter.

PS - But hey - just opening a project where it was not possible to install a loading bridge in a nearly 100 year old building so 24 Prodigies.


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## Stoickthelesser (Sep 13, 2017)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> Lack of loading bridge in a manual counterweight system is just about criminal in my no so humble opinion on this matter.


Another big Bill in the industry agrees with you, but we're stuck to make the best of it.
I haven't even mentioned the bumble****ery that went into the electrics.
This system has three sizes of brick, the heaviest of which is wider, but not thicker, than the midweight ones. The electrics are counterweighted entirely with midweight ones. I'd need to be 7'4" to adjust the arbor load without a stepladder. Another problem that could have been mitigated by installing an actually complete counterweight system...


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## BillConnerFASTC (Sep 13, 2017)

Get parents - aka taxpayers - interested and involved and talking to the powers that be.


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