# Rotating flat options



## Catherder (Jan 19, 2020)

Here is my scenario. For my kids school play I need to build a pair of double sided rotating flats - one side a castle and one side forest. What I have on hand is:
1. A stock of 4’x8’ Broadway flats, about 8 in total but I haven’t been to our storage space since before Christmas so I can’t remember exactly. Enough for this anyway.
2. Two 2’x4’ platforms that can be converted to wagons
3. A crew of students and parent volunteers whose construction skills range from fair to middlin’.
The way I see it I have 3 options. I can make traditional periaktoi and leave one side “blank”, I can try to rig my existing flats to the wagons, or I can drop about $100 and build two new double sided Hollywood flats and rig _those_ to the wagons. Each has positives and negatives.
What would you do, Booth? What would you do?!?!?!
Thanks in advance.

Edit: I don’t have a lot of budget, but I do have a lot of time.


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## lwinters630 (Jan 19, 2020)

1 Safety with tools and follow proper wall construction
2 Use the 2'x4' wagons or make 2'x8' wagons and stand 2 Broadway flats on each of the 4 ft or 8ft sides attaching to 1'10" x'8' stud walls on the 2' sides. 
3 Add sufficient weight to the wagon so it is not a tipping hazard.
4 Add 1/4" luan sheets on the 2' stud walls (and top if needed) overlap the ends

This will be a 4 sided wagon that be very stable and easy with what you have.


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## Van (Jan 20, 2020)

I like the Periaktoi option. Leave on neutral, paint the other two.Light, Simple, traditional, no trip hazard generated by the extra wagon sticking out the bottom.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Jan 20, 2020)

If there was a way to mount a vertical pipe overhead (flange to floor) I'd just sandwich the existing hollywood flats back to back around the pipe as pivot.


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## Catherder (Jan 20, 2020)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> If there was a way to mount a vertical pipe overhead (flange to floor) I'd just sandwich the existing hollywood flats back to back around the pipe as pivot.


That’s a good idea, but no drilling into the stage. I thought about some kind of pivot point like that but couldn’t think of a way to get to get the counterweight right without a huge bulky something that I’d have to hide on the bottom. Seemed like more trouble that it was worth and in violation of the K.I.S.S. principle. 

@Van and @lwinters630 thanks for the responses. I’m currently leaning periaktoi for eased build, future reuse flexibility, and storage space reasons but I need to see how much stage they’ll eat up. Our space is TINY.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Jan 20, 2020)

Bummer that you can't fasten to stage.

Three of your flats just joined on edges - maybe even hinges so it easy to dismantle - and casters on the bottom - one per flat - and should be good. Use fixed casters aligned and it should rotate pretty closely in place.


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## RonHebbard (Jan 20, 2020)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> Bummer that you can't fasten to stage.
> 
> Three of your flats just joined on edges - maybe even hinges so it easy to dismantle - and casters on the bottom - one per flat - and should be good. Use fixed casters aligned and it should rotate pretty closely in place.


And ( *@Catherder* ) with stage weights / sand bags within the bottom, as distant from centre / close the the perimeter as practical, and FABULOUS casters hidden by a rigid skirt ending 1/4" above stage level. 
Weights to add ballast to the bottom. 
GREAT rigid casters selected for their tires and bearings carefully chosen to best deal with your deck's surface and the loads / stresses involved. 
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard


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## JonCarter (Jan 20, 2020)

How are the changes from "Castle" to "Forest" to be made? Open-curtain, 5 second changes vs. between-act changes during an intermission? The time (and people) you have to make the change may govern the construction.


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## Catherder (Jan 20, 2020)

JonCarter said:


> How are the changes from "Castle" to "Forest" to be made? Open-curtain, 5 second changes vs. between-act changes during an intermission? The time (and people) you have to make the change may govern the construction.


@JonCarter - all of the above. Enough open curtain changes for my crew of students that simplicity of movement is a key factor.


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## JChenault (Jan 21, 2020)

Re periaktoi. Don’t thing that each wall needs to be the same size. iE you might want to build them with 2 4x8 flats, and one 2x8 flat. This might make things easier for you


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## RonHebbard (Jan 21, 2020)

JChenault said:


> Re periaktoi. Don’t thing that each wall needs to be the same size. iE you might want to build them with 2 4x8 flats, and one 2x8 flat. This might make things easier for you


I suspect this would make heavily weighting the base *even more important* for safe stability while rotating; think of it this way, if carried to the extreme, you're, basically coming closer to rotating a double sided flat. . . 
Toodleoo! 
Ron Hebbard


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## Catherder (Jan 21, 2020)

JChenault said:


> Re periaktoi. Don’t thing that each wall needs to be the same size. iE you might want to build them with 2 4x8 flats, and one 2x8 flat. This might make things easier for you


Thanks, @JChenault - that's a good point. For this one, though, I'll be doing two. The director wants a "minimalist" set design, so two separate units it is. But hey, no seams  .

And @RonHebbard - oh, I'm going to weigh the base of these puppies down like nobody's business no matter what route I go. 

As always, thanks for the advice and pointers.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Jan 21, 2020)

How tall and wide? if each unit is comprised of three 4 x 8s on end, and you put a caster at each apex, those are not likely to be tippy.


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## Catherder (Jan 21, 2020)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> How tall and wide? if each unit is comprised of three 4 x 8s on end, and you put a caster at each apex, those are not likely to be tippy.


4’ wide and 8’ tall. So yeah not huge and a pretty good base:height ratio. Also wanting to mitigate drift while rotating.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Jan 21, 2020)

I wonder if a center shoe - a plywood plate with some rubber or that carpet grip stuff - doing or weighted to press down on no holes allowed floor - would work - with casters aligned.


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## RonHebbard (Jan 21, 2020)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> I wonder if a center shoe - a plywood plate with some rubber or that carpet grip stuff - doing or weighted to press down on no holes allowed floor - would work - with casters aligned.


*@Catherder * Mr. Bill's idea is EXCELLENT! And as, he mentions again, Rigid Casters (non swiveling) are definitely the way to go; taking great pains to align them is key and will pay off big time. 
Toodleoo! 
Ron Hebbard


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## Catherder (Jan 21, 2020)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> I wonder if a center shoe - a plywood plate with some rubber or that carpet grip stuff - doing or weighted to press down on no holes allowed floor - would work - with casters aligned.


So like a lazy susan underneath the periaktoi as a pivot point? That could work. My original idea was to attach a 1” dowel to a piece of plywood, put that in one of the plate things that potted plants sit on, fill that with concrete, and then drill a corresponding hole in the periaktoi triangle. Periaktoi goes over dowel, weight of the plant tray keeps it in line while it pivots on its (@RonHebbard ) carefully aligned casters.


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## DrewE (Jan 22, 2020)

If you have a sufficiently large lazy susan bearing, attached to a base plate sufficiently large for stability, you may not need the casters at all, assuming they can stay in position for the duration of the show. Lee Valley, among other places, sells some fairly big ones (their really big aluminum ones are spendy indeed, but the 12" steel ones look to me like they might work fairly well here). Perhaps it would be wise to incorporate some sort of a little friction brake mechanism so as to prevent the kiddos from spinning the scenery around too rapidly.


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## RonHebbard (Jan 22, 2020)

Catherder said:


> So like a lazy susan underneath the periaktoi as a pivot point? That could work. My original idea was to attach a 1” dowel to a piece of plywood, put that in one of the plate things that potted plants sit on, fill that with concrete, and then drill a corresponding hole in the periaktoi triangle. Periaktoi goes over dowel, weight of the plant tray keeps it in line while it pivots on its (@RonHebbard ) carefully aligned casters.


 * @Catherder * When you posted: "one of the plate things that potted plants sit on" I hope you weren't meaning a plant 'thingy' with its own integral casters, the cheap 'n cheerful casters on rotatable 'plant thingies' were one notch above garbage; my wife had three or four for decades, they did anything but track accurately and remain in location on an imaginary axis. 

If I interpreted Mr. Bill correctly, he meant an 18" to 24" square of ply with a 'grippy' material the full size of its underside, weighted in place by as many stage weights as you can place atop it. In the centre of the ply, either you'd have a hole to receive a pin rigidly anchored downward from the base of your periaktoi OR a pin rigidly anchored upwards from the ply and passing through a centre hole in the base of your periaktoi. ALL weight of your periaktoi would continue to be supported by your three SUPERB quality rigid casters at the apexes of your periaktoi. 
Toodleoo! 
Ron Hebbard


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## BillConnerFASTC (Jan 22, 2020)

I imagined the pin flanged to base and a sleeve or hole in periaktoi, but imagined a spring rather than weights, but take your choice.

The lazy Susan bearing is interesting. https://www.vxb.com/1000-lbs-Capaci...LgLK8Z8cfA_61cXDe-t-j1SEYwET5_5RoCqcIQAvD_BwE

That's a 1000 pounds 12" for $7.77 ! That be with maybe furniture glides on the "points" for tipping might be simplest and quietest solution. 

Not sure a piece of ply and ply bottom on periaktoi, with hardboard "bearings" wouldn't also be quiet and very stable. More friction to move but not much, very steady and wobble free, minimum noise, no danger of "spinning" adventures. 

Lots of choices.


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## Catherder (Jan 22, 2020)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> I imagined the pin flanged to base and a sleeve or hole in periaktoi, but imagined a spring rather than weights, but take your choice.


Ah - we were talking about the exact same thing then. Forgot about flanges and how easy they are to use - my idea was a DIY hack of the exact same thing. 

Thanks to everyone who shot me ideas and advice on this. I think I'm going to go with the periaktoi option. I'll just build a standard one first, get the flats on it asap, and run some tests on stage. Could be that with weights in the bottom there isn't any significant drift when it gets rotated and we're done. If it does wander, I have plenty of options to choose from to address it.

You all are the best.

Edit: trimmed Bill's quote for brevity


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## BillConnerFASTC (Jan 22, 2020)

If hollywood style flats, just join at vertical edges and attach casters to the flat frame. Don't bother with building a platform. The triangle in plan is very stiff. If you need a pivot - a piece of 1x4 or 1x6 "sitting" on the frames will do it.


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## Catherder (Jan 22, 2020)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> If hollywood style flats, just join at vertical edges and attach casters to the flat frame. Don't bother with building a platform. The triangle in plan is very stiff. If you need a pivot - a piece of 1x4 or 1x6 "sitting" on the frames will do it.


Our current stock are all Broadway. I had a thought of building two new double sided Hollywoods for this, but am going to use what I have first.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Jan 22, 2020)

Misunderstood/misread. Thought you had hollywood flats. My apologies.

Consider just a perimeter frame then for casters. I just don't see need for a whole platform.


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