# Is Local 829 worth it?



## Esoteric (Jun 25, 2011)

My old Mentor and a couple of other LDs I work with from time to time were asking me if I would like to go through the peer review process for USA (they are all members of USA). But I would do at the most 3 gigs a year that I need USA membership for. Would it be worth it to those of you in USA?


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## jstandfast (Jun 25, 2011)

The operating idea in force is that once you become a member you then cut union contracts for all your design work............ The Chicago office
would be your regional place.


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## Footer (Jun 26, 2011)

Its just like joining any other union, once you join you should stick to it. You're in a right to work state, so there is no reason to join. If you want to do it for the benefits it brings, do. However, after you join, you should do all your work under their contracts. I'm sure there are ways around that, but that is at least the theory. Its just like joining equity. You have to do it in a time in your life where you feel you can get all your work under the banner of your union. If you don't think you can, don't do it. I'm not sure on how stringent 829 is with outside worker outside of a 829 contract. I know equity actors will come down on actors who do work without an AEA contract and the consequences can be severe. Do your homework before you go and pull the trigger,


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## xander (Jun 26, 2011)

Footer said:


> Its just like joining any other union, once you join you should stick to it. Your in a right to work state, so there is no reason to join. If you want to do it for the benefits it brings, do. However, after you join, you should do all your work under their contracts. I'm sure there are ways around that, but that is at least the theory. Its just like joining equity. You have to do it in a time in your life where you feel you can get all your work under the banner of your union. If you don't think you can, don't do it. I'm not sure on how stringent 829 is with outside worker outside of a 829 contract.  I know equity actors will come down on actors who do work without an AEA contract and the consequences can be severe. Do your homework before you go and pull the trigger,


It's not like AEA. You don't have to use a union approved contract if you don't want to. It's just like the rest of IA in that regard. The only thing it can do is help you. It will never hinder you. The only downside is the cost. If you can't justify the several thousand dollars that it costs to join, then it's not right for you at the moment. But if you can make that money back because you have jobs waiting for you, you just need the card, then I think it is worth it. I'm not a member. I'm not a designer. But I have designer friends. Lots in 829, some not. A good friend of mine was just forced to join because he was doing a show on Broadway. He was not very happy about it at the time, but I should ask him how he feels about it now that it's been a while. 

They are not really like other labor unions in that they don't really "protect" the worker in regards to hours worked and such and such. Designers just can't really fit into a mold like that. It's the nature of the work. What they can do is set minimum fees and housing standards and the like. And, perhaps the most important thing, if the employer doesn't live up to their end of the bargain (such as not pay you on time/at all) you actually a method of recourse with the threat of IA lawyers behind you. There's also the health benefits that you can buy into.

-Tim


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## SteveB (Jun 26, 2011)

My wife's an 829 Scenic Artist and in that category they "frown" upon and do not encourage the SA's working non-union. They generally understand that there's not enough work to keep every SA working full, or even part time, but will take action if you are blatantly working a non-union gig in the region they have control, that would normally come under their jurisdiction. With designers, they do not enforce working without a contract.

Part of the reason 829 has become easier to join over the decades is that it eventually dawned on them that having many, many more designers as members A) Looks good for the union, even if the majority don't work under contract and B) Having many more members paying yearly dues (plus that initial initiation fee) while not earning enough to qualify for benefits, helps subsidize those members that are working, contributing to pension and collecting on the medical. Simple economics.


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## Esoteric (Jun 26, 2011)

Yeah, there are only 3 theaters here that are 829 theaters, and I would end up doing one show at each under an 829 contract. I really want to design in those theaters, but I get the feeling that all the money I make on those gigs would pretty much go to my 829 dues. In addition 90% of my work is non theater (I do many more rig installs for clubs, theaters, churches, etc than I do actual theater design work) so I need to ask them if that will be a problem. But they all seemed to be pushing me toward it with a yeah, do it, its great, no problem, they don't really care about what you do most of the time type thing. So I wanted to check.


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## xander (Jun 26, 2011)

I would think that if what you are doing is not under their jurisdiction, then they won't care, they can't care. It is when you are doing jobs under their jurisdiction without their contract that they can get uppity because they aren't getting their percentage. But, by all means, talk to your friends. They will know better than us just how your regional people handle it. I wouldn't take my word for it.


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## derekleffew (Jan 12, 2012)

*Joining USA 829*

Saw this blog post, and felt it a good enough reason to revive this thread.

Joining the Union « Focus Notes

[This, and the following ten (10) posts have been moved here from another location.]


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## Gern (Jan 12, 2012)

*Re: Joining USA 829*

Thanks Derek,
That is a nice perspective.
When I came to Hollywood in 1998, I was non union, and didn't think I'd ever need/want to join the union because on my FIRST gig(non-union) a local 33 brother told me horror stories; he felt the unions would be gone in a few years. In 1994 when a feature film I was on struck, I didn't feel I'd join, BUT I DID support the crew and walked with them. We got the contract. It was a tough time(the year end Holidays), but we stuck together with great solidarity and won. Days later in January, I got a call to be a 2nd unit Best Boy @ Universal on a Janusz Kaminski Film. I took the gig, and payed my 1/2 initiation fee the first day of shooting.
I had come to realize that "In Hollywood" a union card was really more of a "right to work on 'anything' pass card". 
I have since, come to believe it is even more than that, as like the 'pro's' mentioned in the blog above.
And of course I could work on non union gigs, but over the years I've just gotten tired of the crappy abuse that 'most' non union gigs in town heap on us. 

Last non union gig I did was a little flick called Titanic. I called it "the biggest low budget movie ever made".
I was on VFX for a year. 2 antidotes:
A production coordinator actually was happy to "take' some trash cans from her apartment building to use on set for several months. Wow, the money they saved there!
The UPM said to me: "Hey, I just got the "BEST deal in town on porta potties: $35 each a week."
He was truly giddy with excitement. Problem was these units were for the 7 weeks of NIGHT shooting @ Polsa Rosa Ranch in Acton. PRR had NO running water anywhere to wash our hands. The crappy $35 blue room units had no sink to wash-no other portable sinks were provided either. They also lacked lighting and we where shooting nights. So I had to run power to them and install lights.
Wow, the money they saved with those cheapies over the(industry standard in Hollywood) units with lights & sinks!


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## Esoteric (Jan 12, 2012)

*Re: Joining USA 829*

First let me preface this by saying I live/work in Texas and theatrical lighting design is probably 5% of my total business.

That being said, about once a year I get one of my mentors calling me and wanting to talk to me about joining USA. The other two people that I consider "mentors" (who are both USA members) are very apathetic on the subject, but this guy is all in for 829. So every year I consider it (it would look cool on the website to put a Local 829 stamp), and I usually shelve it for later. For me, I do this for a few reasons:

1. I don't travel. I don't want to tour. If someone asked me to go to another city for a tech and opening I guess I would do it, but I am not interested in traveling more than 3-4 weeks a year.

2. There are only two theater companies here in Dallas that require Local 829 designers. Although I would love to work for them, they have been using the same rotation of 4-5 designers for 20-30 years and show no interest in letting anyone else new have a shot.

3. All the other companies here in Dallas hire designers without IATSE affiliation. I have worked for them all, so I don't see a benefit.

4. As I said, only about 5% of our business is theatrical design (I like to do 1 or 2 theater designs a year just for the fun of it). Another 30% is live music, but I have never been asked about USA by the producer for any of the bands I have worked with. In my experience (only 15 years, I will grant), no one in live music really cares. So yeah, it would be cool to be able to do a design here or there that requires it, but not for the money and effort it takes to get it done.

5. I have never had an architect ask me if I was a member of USA. Now they have asked if I was a registered electrical engineer. But never have they asked about that.

6. I don't like Unions. I think they are a relic of a bygone age. The best techs I know are non-union and the union techs I have worked with and hired in the past (5 years with local 207) were, overall, below average. In addition most of the union hierarchy I have dealt with is completely inept and the Locals are very badly run (I have asked for two electricians before and ended up with a Carpenter and a box pusher). Plus, every function the union was once needed for (health and safety, overtime rules, workplace conditions, work schedules, vacation, days off, etc) are now handled by the Federal Government.

7. Of course Texas being a right to work state, the threat of a strike is often met with a laugh.

8. Most good jobs, even if not union, pay union scale.

So, for me, in my situation in Texas (as a technician, designer, and business owner) being a member of USA just doesn't really have any benefits (other than looking cool on the website).

This is just my POV and another take on the subject.


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## afgld (Jan 12, 2012)

*Re: Joining USA 829*

Esoteric -

I appreciate your response, and some valid points were made until you starting getting very negative towards unions and it seems that you yourself are uneducated as to what exactly local 829 is. Here are my responses to your bullet points to help clear up some misconceptions:

2 - I assume you are speaking of LORT theaters? Even then you can be non union and design in those houses. In fact the only place where it's required you have your USA card is broadway and broadway tours. Where I design in DC we have 5 LORT theaters, but the rest of the theaters can and do Union contracts. For those of us full time in this industry, it allots us the basic benefits anyone else gets for their full time job, and given that this is what I do for a living, and I do it well, people are willing to pay the little extra so I can have a regular life.

3 - The benefit is you get benefits. You get a pension, healthcare, welfare, and many others, maybe you didn't read the article where it lays out a pros and cons list.

4 - To say no one in live music cares if you are USA, some very famous Broadway Designers light live music concerts and tours. They are in fact USA. All it is is a different contract to sign

6 - I am sorry that you don't like unions, and I am really sorry you currently trust the federal government to regulate corporations and workers in an era where the Feds are so clearly bought. We work in an industry where we are frequently taken advantage of, and Unions help protect us, and not just us, anyone other brother with a card. Does it mean the union system is perfect, by all means no, but I would much rather a brotherhood of my peers looking out for me than government officials being paid off by corporate america.
Further - to say union hands are bad is a gross over generalization. Sure your call may have been mis handled, but did you take the chance that day to see where the good electricians may be? Maybe there was a bigger national tour in, maybe there was an event that required more skill, or was better paying than your gig would be. There is a hierarchy they follow. I'm sorry your hands weren't up to snuff, but in my professional life I have encountered just as many bad Union as Non Union, but when I speak of elite technicians, all the ones I know are union.

7 - You should look up states with right to work laws. Those states have lower median wages and higher rates of injuries on the job. That should further prove the point in 6. Further, USA doesn't typically strike except for in sympathy with IATSE.

Other than that you make some good points - I don't understand why you need to be so negative and venomous towards unions in an article that was just meant to help people make up their minds about whether or not to join. Being a union designer is an honor. It is like being a guild, where you have put in your time, paid your dues, and proven your skills to be high enough to warrant inclusion into the group.


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## Footer (Jan 12, 2012)

*Re: Joining USA 829*

How many weeks/contracts do you have to work to get the benefits to kick in?


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## Gern (Jan 12, 2012)

*Re: Joining USA 829*


Footer said:


> How many weeks/contracts do you have to work to get the benefits to kick in?


 I cannot say for USA 829.
As I'm told, West Coast I.A.T.S.E. contract is new members need 600 hours to start coverage. Thereafter, a member needs 400 hours per qualifying period( every 6 months to maintain coverage.


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## Gern (Jan 12, 2012)

*Re: Joining USA 829*


Esoteric said:


> ...Plus, every function the union was once needed for (health and safety, overtime rules, workplace conditions, work schedules, vacation, days off, etc) are now handled by the Federal Government.


 
I respectfully say "RUBBISH!'' AT THE TOP OF MY LUNGS.
Whoops, they heard me 100' away on set.

I'm thinking this might start a controversy, but here goes:
Two days ago a member was injured on set. As he lay prone on the floor awaiting transport to the hospital, Production was already telling the best boy to "Take him off the clock when he is taken off stage". I don't feel that is right. Neither does our Locals Business Agent. The BA said to leave him on the clock until he is either transported back to his vehicle, or home. Due to injury he was unable to drive.

I really don't think The Fed's would be helpful regarding this. 
I also agree there are different regional philosophies regarding working conditions, and my(& West Coast I.A.T.S.E.'s) stance isn't well received everywhere.

One of the most common daily abuses of non union productions that comes to mind here in California is working 6 hours before a meal break. 6 hours between meals is a Union concession to producers. CA Labor Law states 5 hours!


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## EBB (Jan 12, 2012)

*Re: Joining USA 829*


> One of the most common daily abuses of non union productions that comes to mind here in California is working 6 hours before a meal break. 6 hours between meals is a Union concession to producers. CA Labor Law states 5 hours!



I know in the union I am in on the other side of the states, we have our meals and whatnot set up through the houses we work at. Generally all of ours are at 5 hours- though a few are different. But it was all voted in on things like hour minimums, breaks, meals, etc. It seems to me that if that is a problem, the union needs to renegotiate contracts to fix those issues. And if said issues can't be fixed then either take the hit and keep working or just don't work there. Both options have some serious conversation and debate to them. but that's the gist of what I generally hear in situations like that.


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## Esoteric (Jan 12, 2012)

*Re: Joining USA 829*


afgld said:


> Esoteric -
> 
> I appreciate your response, and some valid points were made until you starting getting very negative towards unions and it seems that you yourself are uneducated as to what exactly local 829 is. Here are my responses to your bullet points to help clear up some misconceptions:
> 
> ...


 
I did not mean to seem "venomous" toward unions. I apologize. In their day they were very useful, but have long outlived their usefulness. Maybe part of it is seeing the damage that union labor has done to my wife's home state of Michigan. But, on your individual points.

2. I did misspeak here. I meant companies not theaters. For example, I know that you can be non-union and design in the Wyly theater. But all DTC designers are USA (which I know is by choice, but that is their policy). So I should have said there are a couple of companies (like DTC) that I would love to design for, but a lack of USA membership keeps me from it. I apologize for my error.

3. I am not sure about anywhere else, but here in Texas all the benefits that unions provide are available to any self employed individual. Or you can incorporate yourself (not a bad idea anyway) and get the benefits because you are a corporation. I stand by my assertion that they provide no value in this area.

4. I know that. But having designed for some b level acts (never had a chance to design for a secular a list act) no Producer has ever asked me if I was a member of USA or insisted that I be one.

5. I am sorry, I just don't buy the apocalyptic view of the Federal Government. Perhaps because I am an "evil" corporation? If you feel you are being asked to do something unsafe then perhaps you should do what every other employee in America does and call OSHA and make a report? If your employers are violating state employment rules, again make a report to OSHA, I guarantee they will show up and investigate. If anything, another reason I do not like unions is that they create a dual level of behavior. They hold accountable those who have a contract with them, but they have created this sublevel of the theater world where employers think they can do whatever they want because there are no rules because they are nonunion. I say bull. There are rules that every employer MUST follow.

6. I tried to word that carefully. I suppose I did not word it carefully enough. There are exceptional union hands. There are rubbish nonunion hands. Want to know the difference? I can fire a rubbish nonunion hand and replace them ASAP. Have you ever tried to kick a union hand off a call? In my experience it is almost impossible, and when you do, you won't get another to replace them any time soon (and watch your priority fall down the table). Considering I pay 133%-175% of scale, I doubt there were any better paying gigs that day. However, there may have been higher priority gigs, but I doubt it because the guys I got had a combined 60 years in (at the time these IA's were on a seniority only system). But I asked for electricians and got a carpenter? That is a microcosm of what is wrong with the IA's that I have dealt with (in Texas, Tenn, and Georgia) and unions in general. Too many people lining their pockets and not providing any value in return. Again, no venom meant, just my take on Unions (my brother has been a Teamster for 25 years and I was in IA for 5). And yes, I know this has NOTHING to do with local 829 (except for the fact that I believe it provides no real value to me).

7. First of all median wages depends on the industry. They have higher median wages for blue collar jobs, but for white collar and tech industries it is actually lower. They also have higher cost of living. In addition, they have higher unemployment. My wife escaped a state with a heavy union presence. There were just no jobs. It is a wasteland. But again, that is neither here nor there on the 829 thing.

I guess I see union membership a little different. It is just a means to an end. And in this case it provides very little value for the money. That is my only point.


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## derekleffew (Jan 12, 2012)

*Re: Joining USA 829*


Gern said:


> ...I'm thinking this might start a controversy, but here goes:
> Two days ago a member was injured on set. As he lay prone on the floor awaiting transport to the hospital, Production was already telling the best boy to "Take him off the clock when he is taken off stage". I don't feel that is right. Neither does our Locals Business Agent. The BA said to leave him on the clock until he is either transported back to his vehicle, or home. Due to injury he was unable to drive. ...


(Controversy makes for interesting discussion.  )
Company Policy at one place I work is: If an injured employee leaves property to seek medical attention, he/she is paid until the end of his/her scheduled shift. Get injured at five minutes 'til wash-up? Too bad.
At another: Time worked or four-hour minimum, whichever is greater.


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## shiben (Jan 12, 2012)

*Re: Joining USA 829*

I can see where Esoteric is coming from, Especially having been in MI for a couple of years recently. The job market and economy are a joke, but I think that has to do with a union overplaying its hand and getting bitten in the arse, and less with unions being bad by nature. Especially when they get tied into the political culture, it becomes a huge problem.


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## SteveB (Jan 12, 2012)

*Re: Joining USA 829*

Esoteric,

You have somehow totally confused IATSE Local 829 with the many other IATSE theatrical and film locals. Local 829 represents Scenic, Costume, Lighting and Sound designers, as well as Scenic Artists and other crafts. Thus many of your comments have nothing to do with the OP.

The article as posted by Derek was a very well written blog/article by a (presumably) young and up-and-coming lighting designer, detailing his experiences working in the Washington D.C. area and his reasons for joining Local 829 and as such, is a useful article for any members of CB wondering why or when they would want to join.

I am sorry you feel as you do towards unions in general. To state that unions were the cause of the "damage that [union labor] has done to my wife's home state of Michigan" is extraordinarily naive of the myriad problems associated with manufacturing in a world economy. Are there unions that seemingly live in the dark ages and refuse to see the light as it were, and become their own worst enemies ?. Certainly and the United Auto Workers (one of the unions I assume you are blaming for the state of Michigan's largest manufacturing business - the auto industry being in decline) are typical, but are you stating that the management at GM or Ford or Chrysler are not to blame as well ?. 

I would actually classify the IATSE as one of the smartest unions in the US today, having first hand witnessed the successful unionization of my own facility (I am no longer an IATSE member as BTW, having given it up when I took my current college position), where the union was very aware of the universities limitations in this initial contract, as well as the unions recognition of the need to get the foot in the door and to get representation now, for workers that had none. Are the employees better off ?. Absolutely. They get a meal penalty now for when the timing of an event or load-in forces them to work hours that are in violation of State of NY Labor Law. They get overtime when asked to work before 7AM. They get monies put into a welfare and pension fund. Do they make more per hour ?. No, but they get benefits now and didn't before. That's what a union provides for and in this case and many others is a success for the employees. 

Is the US better off having had such a strong history of union representation ?. Yes it is. If you believe otherwise, you are buying into a load of BS as put forth by corporate America and the US government.


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## Esoteric (Jan 12, 2012)

*Re: Joining USA 829*


derekleffew said:


> (Controversy makes for interesting discussion.  )
> Company Policy at one place I work is: If an injured employee leaves property to seek medical attention, he/she is paid until the end of his/her scheduled shift. Get injured at five minutes 'til wash-up? Too bad.
> At another: Time worked or four-hour minimum, whichever is greater.


 
Yeah, in the real world no one gets paid if they have to be taken away. My dad had a heart attack at work, and they clocked him out when the ambulance was called. The company owner later decided of his own good will to pay him for the entire week without taking up vacation pay, but if you aren't on the floor working, no one owes you a check.

By the way, I did not confuse anything. If you read my responses I noted that many of them were neither here nor there. But considering that Local 829 doesn't provide any value, my overall feelings on unions effect my view of 829. I did a ton of research the first time someone asked me to join.

As far as the history of unionization? Absolutely. There was a time when unions were absolutely essential and drove America into having a safe and viable workplace. That time has passed now and unions serve no purpose that is not provided by either the USFG or numerous other private companies. We are absolutely better off for having Unions. But they have long outlived their usefulness.

By the way, and this is REALLY OT, but of course management is partly to blame for the state of the American auto industry. But even if management makes the necessary changes (which they are on their way to doing) they are handcuffed by UAW and will never be able to compete.

The only reason I put in my feelings on unions in general is because they effect my feelings on all union interactions including the prospect of joining local 829.

The example you give points out some of the flaws of unions. They drive up costs with ridiculous rules. Overtime pay for working before 7:00AM? What a ripoff. My dad used to start work at 5:30 every day. Should he get an hour and a half of overtime every day? Overtime is just that. It is compensation for working over the allotted work day (8 hours in the US). Not for arriving or leaving at a particular time or on a particular day. I once made over $100 an hour at a gig because of union bonuses. At the time I loved it. Now, I see how ridiculous that was and why that particular company started calling nonunion hands from then on. I use several union hands, but not under union contracts. I refuse to be handicapped like that. Again I know none of this has to do with the OP, but for a group that offers no real value anyway for me, my overreaching feelings on unions contribute to my thought every year to put the idea on the shelf and do other more useful things, like paying for workers comp coverage.


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## shiben (Jan 12, 2012)

*Re: Joining USA 829*


SteveB said:


> I would actually classify the IATSE as one of the smartest unions in the US today


 
Would you consider that the case when you look at the ludicrous situation in Chicago? I know its not just the IA, but they certainly are a big part of a very large problem here, and its costing us as a city a lot of work for all hands. It makes my non-union job nice, as there is plenty of work from people fed up with using Local 2, but at the same time, when one of the largest Show Halls in the country is loosing business due to an incredibly high cost (thanks to Unions), who are they serving?


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## Footer (Jan 12, 2012)

*Re: Joining USA 829*


shiben said:


> Would you consider that the case when you look at the ludicrous situation in Chicago? I know its not just the IA, but they certainly are a big part of a very large problem here, and its costing us as a city a lot of work for all hands. It makes my non-union job nice, as there is plenty of work from people fed up with using Local 2, but at the same time, when one of the largest Show Halls in the country is loosing business due to an incredibly high cost (thanks to Unions), who are they serving?


 
And then you get responses from labor companies like Chicago Stagehand. 


> * We don't charge meal penalties, we are happy to keep working until there is a natural break that makes sense for all parties concerned.
> * No department lines, we work as a team. All for one and one for all. Loaders can be hands, audio can help lighting, carpenters can help wardrobe, etc.
> * We crew well balanced teams with people of various backgrounds and levels of experience in order to meet clients best interests.
> * Your crew and technicians can handle their own gear and push their own cases if they choose. We're here to help, just let us know where and how you want something placed.
> ...


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## Esoteric (Jan 12, 2012)

*Re: Joining USA 829*

I agree, and like I said when a call asks for electricians and gets sent carpenters just because they have more seniority, I can't buy it as being a "smart" union. Also, see above.


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## mstaylor (Jan 12, 2012)

*Re: Joining USA 829*

I am not an IATSE member but I will concede that of the many unions, they are probably the best. That said, there some cities that take the rules to stupid level that is counterproductive. I assure you that guys in the business can easily name the good locals and the bad. I have traveled and used local crews, union and nonunion. Nothing more frustrating to walk into a union house, where you have higher expectations, and have to talk riggers through points. 22 in DC is definitely one of the better locals on the east coast. One thing that I take issue with is using the senority as a basis of getting calls. I agree that it is important but if I have a younger guy that is better, I will schedule him over a more senior but less talented tech or hand.


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## derekleffew (Jan 12, 2012)

*Re: Joining USA 829*


mstaylor said:


> ... but if I have a younger guy that is better, I will schedule him over a more senior but less talented tech or hand.


"I'm sure you'd like that, sir, but sixty-five year-old Ethel here has seniority."


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## Esoteric (Jan 12, 2012)

*Re: Joining USA 829*


derekleffew said:


> "I'm sure you'd like that, sir, but eighty-seven year-old Gladys here has seniority."


I almost spit all over my monitor. You think you are joking but we had a projectionist who was about 50 or 60 years in I guess, and every now and then he would get an urge to try something new and since he had the right of first refusal you would get an 80 year old hand on an electrics call. It would take him an hour to get up the ladder. Actually he would spend most of his time talking and drinking coffee.

We also had a guy called Rocky the Ground Squirrel. He would get in on all the rigging calls, but would never go up. Hell he wouldn't climb to the top of a 10' ladder. But he was in on every rigging call even if there was no ground work to be done.

I had at least 3 or 4 tours roll through town and hire me directly because they requested me from the union and were told that there were people who would have to be called first. That really chapped the union guys.

Now, admittedly this was one of the worst run locals in the country probably, but what a collection of characters.


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## Van (Jan 13, 2012)

*Re: Joining USA 829*

I'm sorry Esoteric, but I just can't hold my tongue. Your Opinions and positions on labor and Unions are laughable. 
why do we need unions when all the services they provide, "... are already provided by the Federal Government.." I'm sorry since when does the Government provide Health insurance? Since when does the Government provide ongoing training to maintain minimum standards in an industry ? You say that the Unions provide nothing that wait let me find a quote...

_" I am not sure about anywhere else, but here in Texas all the benefits that unions provide are available to any self employed individual. Or you can incorporate yourself (not a bad idea anyway) and get the benefits because you are a corporation. I stand by my assertion that they provide no value in this area."_
Really ? Really ? you're saying that a Self employed stagehand working in the Dallas FTW area can afford to,not only incorporate himself but pay for his own health insurance, Unemployment insurance, and retirement fund ? Oh but wait I forgot, " ...Considering I pay 133%-175% of scale..." So I can assume everyone working for you is able to pay for all the afformentioned. What is Scale in the Dallas / FTW Metroplex ? 

I'm sorry I just delelted the rest of this post I spent the last 45 minutes writing. No matter what I say it's not going change your opinion. I feel your opinions and positions are ignorant, uninformed, and dangerous. I pray to God someone posts your opinions at the local in Dallas.


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## meatpopsicle (Jan 13, 2012)

*Re: Joining USA 829*


Esoteric said:


> Yeah, in the real world no one gets paid if they have to be taken away. My dad had a heart attack at work, and they clocked him out when the ambulance was called. The company owner later decided of his own good will to pay him for the entire week without taking up vacation pay, but if you aren't on the floor working, no one owes you a check.
> 
> 
> As far as the history of unionization? Absolutely. There was a time when unions were absolutely essential and drove America into having a safe and viable workplace. That time has passed now and unions serve no purpose that is not provided by either the USFG or numerous other private companies. We are absolutely better off for having Unions. But they have long outlived their usefulness.
> ...



Nobody in my local gets o.t. for coming in prior to 7:00am (night differential) We used to, and some of the old timers like to bring it up that "we lost that one", but it's not anywhere in our contract. Our contract is, I would venture, one of the best in the industry. We have a very high cost of living here in NY and our negotiators have been able to maintain wages to compensate. And at the same time the employers make a huge amount of money in my end of the business and still cry about wages. One network show shooting right now has a theatrical unit building a show with a Broadway Lighting Designer, Broadway programmmer and they won't buy Coffee for the crew. This is a major network!

I'm not sure of what the ridiculous rules you speak of are. In my local we get a meal penalties if we arn't given a meal break every 6 hours. There is no coffee break in the contract. O.T. starts after 8 and goes to D.T. after 12. Do you find that ridiculous? That after 12 hours of working we shouldn't be compensated for the long hours? And generally we don't allow a shooting day longer than 16 hours. if it goes longer than 14 hours, producers are supposed to arrange for housing or transportation. This was after a number of members were killed getting into car wrecks driving home after a 16 hour day and 70 hour week. 

I don't know how I would support my family if I didn't belong to the IA. Well, I do, but it would be a lot closer to the poverty line, with no health insurance besides what the Federal government offers children, if that hasn't already been stripped away in the fight over budgets. Certainly nobody in the FG or at any private company has maintained wages and working conditions the way the union has. Unions outdated? No way. They are needed now, more than ever.

A friend of mine's father had a saying "You eat alone, you choke"


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## mstaylor (Jan 13, 2012)

*Re: Joining USA 829*

Some of the actions of unions have been questioned but with few explanations. 
1. Meal penalties: This happens mostly in union houses but in some nonunion houes as well. I don't see it as a problem, not breaking to eat should compensated. 
2. High wages: While some areas have fairly high rates compared to other industries in the same area, it is the exception not the rule. Every house negotiates their contract and pay is one part. 
3. Senority: I do see this often. Guys getting calls because they are senior not because they can do the job. I am 53, have had 4 heart attacks, two bad knees and a partially torn archilles. I can still get in a truck and load but my 19 and 23 yr olds are better at it. 
4. Departmentalization: While being more knowledgable in an area is good, it can lead to bad things. I have seen houses where if a set is being built and it requires something to be plugged in it can only be done by an electrician. Or houses where Teamsters do the loading and they won't allow hands on the truck and viceversa. 
5. Unusual rules: A prime example is not allowing a show to handle their gear. 

Some of the rules make sense but as with many things, they get taken to an extreme and then they are counterproductive. There are other unions that are much worse about it but there are some locals that aren't good. 
Even if the union isn't getting the hands more pay, most of the time they do get benefits for them. This is worth much more than a raise sometimes. They also do promote training, which is great. 
There are some great advantages to unions but they can be their own worse enemy sometimes.


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## Esoteric (Jan 13, 2012)

*Re: Joining USA 829*


Van said:


> I'm sorry Esoteric, but I just can't hold my tongue. Your Opinions and positions on labor and Unions are laughable.
> why do we need unions when all the services they provide, "... are already provided by the Federal Government.." I'm sorry since when does the Government provide Health insurance? Since when does the Government provide ongoing training to maintain minimum standards in an industry ? You say that the Unions provide nothing that wait let me find a quote...
> 
> _" I am not sure about anywhere else, but here in Texas all the benefits that unions provide are available to any self employed individual. Or you can incorporate yourself (not a bad idea anyway) and get the benefits because you are a corporation. I stand by my assertion that they provide no value in this area."_
> ...


 
Yes, here in Texas self employed individuals can purchase health insurance, and even through the state if necessary. You can get career training from many private sources.

Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. Incorporation only costs $900 one time fee. We pay $2k a year for all our insurance and stuff. They should be able to if they want. Scale in Dallas last time I checked was $27/hr.

I wouldn't care if someone posted them. I don't use the union anyway.


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## Esoteric (Jan 13, 2012)

*Re: Joining USA 829*

"I'm not sure of what the ridiculous rules you speak of are. In my local we get a meal penalties if we arn't given a meal break every 6 hours. There is no coffee break in the contract. O.T. starts after 8 and goes to D.T. after 12. Do you find that ridiculous? That after 12 hours of working we shouldn't be compensated for the long hours? And generally we don't allow a shooting day longer than 16 hours. if it goes longer than 14 hours, producers are supposed to arrange for housing or transportation. This was after a number of members were killed getting into car wrecks driving home after a 16 hour day and 70 hour week.

I don't know how I would support my family if I didn't belong to the IA. Well, I do, but it would be a lot closer to the poverty line, with no health insurance besides what the Federal government offers children, if that hasn't already been stripped away in the fight over budgets. Certainly nobody in the FG or at any private company has maintained wages and working conditions the way the union has."

Those rules are perfectly normal. Well, except for the transport thing, that is a bit ridiculous. My wife works 20 hour days and doesn't get a ride home from her employer. In fact, the state of Texas enforces those rules for every worker. 

Well, I know many stagehands here in Texas that are not IA and support their families just fine. *shrugs*


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## Esoteric (Jan 13, 2012)

*Re: Joining USA 829*


mstaylor said:


> Some of the actions of unions have been questioned but with few explanations.
> 1. Meal penalties: This happens mostly in union houses but in some nonunion houes as well. I don't see it as a problem, not breaking to eat should compensated.
> 2. High wages: While some areas have fairly high rates compared to other industries in the same area, it is the exception not the rule. Every house negotiates their contract and pay is one part.
> 3. Senority: I do see this often. Guys getting calls because they are senior not because they can do the job. I am 53, have had 4 heart attacks, two bad knees and a partially torn archilles. I can still get in a truck and load but my 19 and 23 yr olds are better at it.
> ...


 
Fair enough.


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## sk8rsdad (Jan 13, 2012)

*Re: Joining USA 829*

I can think of a _ridiculous_ rule that the local IATSE tried to institute with the City. They were trying to negotiate their presence for every rental of every city facility, including community centers, seniors centers, and all sorts of places that have nothing to do with IATSE other than they get used for performances from time to time. Can you imagine a cub scout troop having to pay for a 4-hour call so the IATSE guy could flick the light switch as they enter the room? Fortunately the other unions got into a jurisdictional turf war and IATSE backed down. The small community theatre groups were all looking at their budgets and thinking about folding since a single 4-hour call might be their entire revenue for a performance.

It's a shame, because a lot of those community groups would like to work with IATSE on things like safety, and hire them on a case-by-case basis when specific skills are required, but they are now all in the "give them an inch and they'll cause my group to fold" mindset. I'd like to get an ETCP Certified rigger out of the local chapter to come by every year or so for an inspection but it feels _safer_ to pay to fly in a vendor rep from Toronto less frequently.


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## SteveB (Jan 13, 2012)

*Re: Joining USA 829*


sk8rsdad said:


> I can think of a _ridiculous_ rule that the local IATSE tried to institute with the City. They were trying to negotiate their presence for every rental of every city facility, including community centers, seniors centers, and all sorts of places that have nothing to do with IATSE other than they get used for performances from time to time. Can you imagine a cub scout troop having to pay for a 4-hour call so the IATSE guy could flick the light switch as they enter the room? Fortunately the other unions got into a jurisdictional turf war and IATSE backed down. The small community theatre groups were all looking at their budgets and thinking about folding since a single 4-hour call might be their entire revenue for a performance.
> 
> It's a shame, because a lot of those community groups would like to work with IATSE on things like safety, and hire them on a case-by-case basis when specific skills are required, but they are now all in the "give them an inch and they'll cause my group to fold" mindset. I'd like to get an ETCP Certified rigger out of the local chapter to come by every year or so for an inspection but it feels _safer_ to pay to fly in a vendor rep from Toronto less frequently.



First off it's not a "ridiculous rule" it's a negotiating point that probably and often never gets into a contract. And isn't this what a union SHOULD be doing ?, finding work for the members ?. Every union makes an effort to get a contract with venues where the jurisdiction of the union applies. You stated "have nothing to do with IATSE other than they get used for performances from time to time". So where do you draw the line when a venue starts getting more and more technically sophisticated and requires trained and/or at least, skilled stagehands to safely operate the equipment. Certainly turning on a light switch is beyond the scope, but we all know and have experienced scenarios when that little cub scout troop turns into a musical with a rental and at that point, those audio and lighting console operators could well be represented by IATSE. 

Now is that to state that every IATSE local is chock full of experienced stagehands, some with ETCP certification ?. Hardly. How many of these locals have enough work to allow it's members to gain the skill set found at the busiest locals ?. ****ed few typically. How many of these locals are made up of members that are moonlighting as stagehands, as they cannot support their families on the limited amount of work in the local. That's a typical scenario, sad to say. 

As to my comment that some folks took exception too, about overtime prior to 7AM. Yes the Local One folks get that at this venue. They also have a negotiated salary range that starts at $12hr. with a top out at around $28 (that's a City University contract rate). If you are full time at that rate, it's about $50,000 per year and in this area you'd have a very hard time supporting a family and paying a mortgage on that salary. Plus there are exactly 2 folks working full time, the rest (about 12 to 20 or so) are lucky if they get 20 hrs regular for 40 weeks of work. So no medical paid unless they can find enough work in the local to finish out their $36,000 yearly requirement for minimum medical. I actually don't know any of our crew that make that in a year. 

The meal penalty is an attempt to deal the problem of NY State Law requiring a 1/2 hr. break after 5 hrs consecutive worked, which is a huge problem when you come back from dinner at 7PM, work a 4 hr. show then strike. If you take the half hour, you stop the load-out, which then runs late, which then costs the promoter and then he don't want to come back. So the union say's OK, we'll keep working (against state law) and take the hour. I sat at the light console Wed, night for a Gospel show. Was at the desk at 6:20PM for a 6:30 show, which actually started at 6:45. It ended at 11:15PM, 4-1/2 hrs. later. Then we loaded out till 1AM. So 6-1/2 hrs. worked with no break. If I was non-union, I'd simply have to suck it up and work. Because I am union (teachers), I have someone to complain too, had my Production Manager not seen the light and promised to work in relief operators to avoid a complaint with the unions, Human Resources Dept and Labor Board. The IATSE folks took the meal penalty, which is straight time, and should by 1-1/2 time but isn't (yet), the concept being that the penalty should be just that, a penalty for working folks without relief.


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## Esoteric (Jan 13, 2012)

Interesting. Here in Texas, if you work 6 hours you get a half hour lunch. But it doesn't matter when during the shift you get the lunch, as long as you get it. So it could be a half hour into the shift or nine and a half hours into the shift (I believe at 10 hours it becomes a 1 hour lunch). That is why I feel the meal penalty is a bit ridiculous. I could see it being useful if you had to take a lunch at the prescribed time.

We have the opposite problem here. The union get a 15 minute break every two hours (plus the half hour lunch) and will literally put down their tools and walk away when the steward calls time. I am on board for breaks as it keeps the body and mind fresh. But the IATSE breaks can come at very inconvenient moments, and they really don't care.

Add to that the other ridiculous (IMHO) rules above (like a venue not being able to operate its own equipment, having to call 4 techs for a job that would only take 2, etc, etc) and you can see why the IA down here gets no work (outside the one LORT theater in town).


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## rochem (Jan 13, 2012)

Esoteric said:


> We have the opposite problem here. The union get a 15 minute break every two hours (plus the half hour lunch) and will literally put down their tools and walk away when the steward calls time. I am on board for breaks as it keeps the body and mind fresh. But the IATSE breaks can come at very inconvenient moments, and they really don't care.


 
There are a lot of great points in this thread that I'd like to talk about, but since others seem to have them well covered, I won't add to the chorus. However, I will comment on this point by saying that perhaps you should reevaluate how you schedule your day. You knew a long time before you walked in the door that the union WOULD take a break at exactly two hours into the call. It's not coming as a surprise, so if you're in the middle of a critical project when that two hours hits, you have no one to blame but the person directing the work - namely, you. In my local, the steward usually comes around to the department heads with about 10-15 minutes before the break to make sure everyone is reminded about the break and will be able to plan around it - but even if he doesn't come around, the bosses are smart enough to realize that they shouldn't direct the locals to start hanging a three-point bridle with 5 minutes left until break. 

Out of curiosity, if you had the power to set all these rules yourself, how would you suggest that it be done? Can you honestly say that you'd prefer it if every guy just got to choose when they wanted their own 15-minute break? Would you prefer if the steward just got to choose when he wanted to give everyone a break? Would you want to just have the head (you) decide when to give the break, regardless of when it is? I'm sure you are a good boss and would in fact give a reasonable break, but a large percentage of bosses are not, and would take advantage of the system without thinking twice. Most, if not all, of these rules are in place because somebody at one time abused the system. Also, in nearly every local, the breaks need to happen "no later than" the time specified, two hours in your case. If you reach a good stopping point at 1:45 into the call, talk to the steward and have them call coffee right then. But if the local decides to give you some leeway "just this once," then what happens when you come back for the next show and get angry because they're not giving you the same deal? Being even a little lenient on the rules is a very slippery slope, and it's usually not worth the risk.


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## Gern (Jan 13, 2012)

One is a matter of frequency maybe. Think about working conditions as a way it will be everyday, day in day out, 5, 6 maybe 7 days a week. I actually worked 36 days strait on a film during a 11 month shooting period. 
So, I'm a little confused about this part:

Esoteric said:


> ... Here in Texas, if you work 6 hours you get a half hour lunch. But it doesn't matter when during the shift you get the lunch, as long as you get it. So it could be a half hour into the shift or nine and a half hours into the shift (I believe at 10 hours it becomes a 1 hour lunch). That is why I feel the meal penalty is a bit ridiculous. I could see it being useful if you had to take a lunch at the prescribed time.


 Wow, so you don't see a problem working people for 9 1/2 hours(or more) before giving a meal break. People that will be doing hard, dangerous work. What if your lucky enough to get the work for more than a day or two. What about a week. Or two weeks. Where do you draw the line. If it is just a small job it is OK to push people to great time lengths. Does this Texas Law mean a crew could be worked for 14 hours then given a 1 hour meal break. I MUST be getting that wrong. If you did a schedule like that for multiple days I feel it would get unsafe. I'm very fortunately constantly employed. My Films & TV shows all work over 50hour weeks, usually up to the mid 70 hour mark.
Am I a primadonna because I want a meal every 6 hours or I get COMPENSATED for it. I don't care if people think so. My CA state law is 5 hours so yes my IA contract GIVES that to the producer. My contract also has 1 15 minute break each 6 hour block of work. But in the 20 years I've been working professionally(meaning gigs I pay my bills with, as opposed to the many free shows I do for various charities across the southland every year) I have NEVER ever seen a shooting crew take a 15 minute break. Smokers will pop out for a smoke, but put out immediately when called. Which I feel get us to the meaning to some of the word professional. If a person chooses to call them selves a profession because that is technically correct if one is paid, as opposed to the attitude of work, so be it. I'm not one of those. Case in point, I was a "professional" photographer at the early age of 15. Sold my first of many prints to the local paper. I even took THE picture of Steve Wozniaks' plane crash that went world-wide AP. I still am in love with photography and shoot for some clients. I do not consider myself, nor represent myself as a "professional" photographer only because I do not have the attitude that all the professional photogs I know do. That mainly being the drive to learn the craft to the best of their abilities, not just point & click. To strive to do the best job possible. I mention all this to help illustrate the issue you mentioned about the union dropping everything at a un-opertune time. I think that sounds like a personality conflict. I always see discussions between departments when rigging as to when to COORDINATE our breaks. Sure, we like to take it maybe at 3 hours into the day, but if we need to work with other departments we talk AND work WITH them. That I feel is being professional. It isn't in our contract WHEN exactly to call coffee break. See what I mean?
I'm sure glad you're happy where you are, I'm happy where I am. Places are different.
BTW MP's pay was as follows; 
$7.50 first 1/2 hour
$10.00 next 1/2 hour
$12.50 every 1/2 hour thereafter until a 30 min break.
Incorporating in CA does incur an annual fee over $500 in pretty sure.
I think the union has improved and protected working conditions, not created ways to 'stick it to the man'. I don't think they are perfect by any stretch. I think if a union member is going to 'act-out' and do the things like call a break when it clearly hinders the none break taking workers, they are just a person with a bad attitude about something anyway. They would be the type of person I'd wager that in the rest of their daily lives they looking everywhere for a way to scam themselves better or are bad in other ways. It is a greedy behavior trait I think. We can find examples all throughout society, from positions of power like Governors releasing murderers to the dregs of society preying on innocent victims, like the scum murderers who killed an ELS Lighting employee this week in a robbery in North Hollywood. Luckily, in life not everyone is like that.
I don't see this threads posts so much as a union induced problems, but more as personality conflicts.


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## Esoteric (Jan 13, 2012)

rochem said:


> There are a lot of great points in this thread that I'd like to talk about, but since others seem to have them well covered, I won't add to the chorus. However, I will comment on this point by saying that perhaps you should reevaluate how you schedule your day. You knew a long time before you walked in the door that the union WOULD take a break at exactly two hours into the call. It's not coming as a surprise, so if you're in the middle of a critical project when that two hours hits, you have no one to blame but the person directing the work - namely, you. In my local, the steward usually comes around to the department heads with about 10-15 minutes before the break to make sure everyone is reminded about the break and will be able to plan around it - but even if he doesn't come around, the bosses are smart enough to realize that they shouldn't direct the locals to start hanging a three-point bridle with 5 minutes left until break.
> 
> Out of curiosity, if you had the power to set all these rules yourself, how would you suggest that it be done? Can you honestly say that you'd prefer it if every guy just got to choose when they wanted their own 15-minute break? Would you prefer if the steward just got to choose when he wanted to give everyone a break? Would you want to just have the head (you) decide when to give the break, regardless of when it is? I'm sure you are a good boss and would in fact give a reasonable break, but a large percentage of bosses are not, and would take advantage of the system without thinking twice. Most, if not all, of these rules are in place because somebody at one time abused the system. Also, in nearly every local, the breaks need to happen "no later than" the time specified, two hours in your case. If you reach a good stopping point at 1:45 into the call, talk to the steward and have them call coffee right then. But if the local decides to give you some leeway "just this once," then what happens when you come back for the next show and get angry because they're not giving you the same deal? Being even a little lenient on the rules is a very slippery slope, and it's usually not worth the risk.


 
You can't control everything about a call no matter how hard you try. Perhaps you start a 3 point bridle with 45 minutes to spare, but you encounter problems and need another 10 minutes to finish. But the steward says "nope, sorry" and so you waste all the time of guys getting down, taking their break, going back up, etc. That is ridiculous. But I have had it happen.

I believe in the person with the overall view and plan of what is going on calling breaks and lunches.

If you don't get your mandated break, report the employer to OSHA just like every other worker in the nation has to.

I also had a steward tell me if I called the break at 1:00 (which I wanted to do) then instead of doing 3 hours of work when we got back, the clock would restart and there would be another break 2 hours from that point. Completely insane.


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## Esoteric (Jan 13, 2012)

Gern said:


> One is a matter of frequency maybe. Think about working conditions as a way it will be everyday, day in day out, 5, 6 maybe 7 days a week. I actually worked 36 days strait on a film during a 11 month shooting period.
> So, I'm a little confused about this part:
> 
> Wow, so you don't see a problem working people for 9 1/2 hours(or more) before giving a meal break. People that will be doing hard, dangerous work. What if your lucky enough to get the work for more than a day or two. What about a week. Or two weeks. Where do you draw the line. If it is just a small job it is OK to push people to great time lengths. Does this Texas Law mean a crew could be worked for 14 hours then given a 1 hour meal break. I MUST be getting that wrong. If you did a schedule like that for multiple days I feel it would get unsafe. I'm very fortunately constantly employed. My Films & TV shows all work over 50hour weeks, usually up to the mid 70 hour mark.
> ...


 
The laws on this are VERY complicated, and full of exceptions and such. But yes, you can work 13 hours a day (the maximum work day length unless you are exempted) every day (Monday - Friday) and there is no regulation on when your lunch break falls.

Perhaps the locals there in CA and in the film industry out there are different. But in MY EXPERIENCE with locals in Texas and Tennessee there is certainly a "stick it to the man" attitude. And as "the man" it bothers me when labor doesn't want to work with me. So I quit hiring union guys.


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## Grog12 (Jan 13, 2012)

Esoteric said:


> The laws on this are VERY complicated, and full of exceptions and such. But yes, you can work 13 hours a day (the maximum work day length unless you are exempted) every day (Monday - Friday) and there is no regulation on when your lunch break falls.


 
Yet another reason not to live in Texas. Labor laws (not union rules) in Colorado state that for every 4 hour period you work you have to be broken for a half hour unpaid meal. For every 2 hours you work you are to be given a 15 minute unpaid break. They can be combined into a one hour unpaid lunch break for an 8 hour day.


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## jstroming (Jan 13, 2012)

Esoteric-

I agree with 90% of what you say. What you have to realize is that every single union stagehand sees your existence as a threat to their livelihood. Because of that, they have developed a predatory approach to dealing with "scabs" like you.

They're going to always dislike you (like they do everyone who goes into non-union houses) and try to blacklist you like this fine gentlemen recommends:

*As stated by VAN:
"I feel your opinions and positions are ignorant, uninformed, and dangerous. I pray to God someone posts your opinions at the local in Dallas."*

Van, your threats are completely uncalled for, and unfortunately prove many of the points people who disagree with you make.

*Why are none of the "Senior Members" on this site condemning this language???*


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## Gern (Jan 13, 2012)

Esoteric said:


> The laws on this are VERY complicated, and full of exceptions and such. But yes, you can work 13 hours a day (the maximum work day length unless you are exempted) every day (Monday - Friday) and there is no regulation on when your lunch break falls.
> 
> Perhaps the locals there in CA and in the film industry out there are different. But in MY EXPERIENCE with locals in Texas and Tennessee there is certainly a "stick it to the man" attitude. And as "the man" it bothers me when labor doesn't want to work with me. So I quit hiring union guys.


 Sadly, I think you could find this behavior all most any where, and I didn't mean to say it doesn't happen in LA, yes, I have seen it here in LA. My thoughts are 1)There are 2 types of people regarding this. Some people don't try to 'stick it to the man', for lack of better terms, they don't suffer from a feeling of entitlement, etc., and others do. Granted there is an argument that these people are few & far between...
2) Some people can 'keep it together', 'keep it together', 'keep it together', until they feel taken advantage of, then they will 'stick it to the man'.
I am sorry to hear of your problem workers. I'm not doubting your experiences at all. 
I sir, have had absolutely the opposite experience with my workers when I was in Tennessee as the best boy using all local electrics & grips. I am very proud of them, they truly made my life as easy as possible, did the job flawlessly, and had the kind of personalities that made me want to hang out with them. The only rough parts were the high humidity, and me breaking my ribs on a mt bike fall on my day off.

I've had a good times while visiting Texas, but never worked there.


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## shiben (Jan 13, 2012)

Esoteric said:


> You can't control everything about a call no matter how hard you try. Perhaps you start a 3 point bridle with 45 minutes to spare, but you encounter problems and need another 10 minutes to finish. But the steward says "nope, sorry" and so you waste all the time of guys getting down, taking their break, going back up, etc. That is ridiculous. But I have had it happen.
> 
> I believe in the person with the overall view and plan of what is going on calling breaks and lunches.
> 
> ...


 
Actually that last tidbit makes sense, if they are trying to call a break ever 2 hours. I understand you are frustrated with the union, but at some point, there needs to be some sort of thing there to protect workers. Trusting the Feds to regulate things is a joke. Mine workers are presumably unionized, yet there is still horrific accidental death in mines every year. Federal regulation has not done jack for them. The history of labor has shown that employers will, in the absence of multiple levels of regulation, not care what happens to the workers. The Union is one layer, OSHA is another. True, they could be more flexible, but you can see why they wouldnt. Give in one, it becomes a fight to even keep the regulation in place. I have been fortunate enough that most of the people I work for are pretty cool about breaks happening at the right time, or often enough to be ok, but I know people who have been worked for 10 hours straight without a break. Thats outrageous, and when thats the abuse, you must forgive someone for going a bit too far in the other direction to attempt to protect their workers from that. Also, I think from an employer perspective, dealing with the union over a safety issue is probably preferable to having OSHA come in, shut the place down, and then fine everyone within sight...


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## Grog12 (Jan 13, 2012)

jstroming said:


> Esoteric-
> 
> I agree with 90% of what you say. What you have to realize is that every single union stagehand sees your existence as a threat to their livelihood. Because of that, they have developed a predatory approach to dealing with "scabs" like you.
> 
> ...


 
The problem with your post, much as is the problem with posts on both sides of this arguement is that it generalizes the entirety of the IATSE.

I've worked with several members who in no way shape or form felt that us non union hands were a "threat to their livelihood." 9 times out of 10 they've tried to recruit me.

There are scumbag employers. Not all of them are.

There are scumbag union hands. Not all of them are.

There are scumbag non union hands. Not all of them are.

Lets go ahead and agree to realize this fact now.


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## Footer (Jan 13, 2012)

2 things here...

I'm not in a union venue. I'm technically management, so even if we went union I would not. However, we still follow some of the rules. If we push a meal and don't get a full hour for dinner, venue pays for our meal AND we stay on the clock during the meal. Long story short, my executive director is not happy with me if we have to push a meal. Time and a half after 8 hours. Everyone crosses lines to get the show done. Now, that being said, none of my guys have health insurance that we help pay for. They can pay into the NYS retirement system if they want. We do occasionally hire union hands for overhire but we use them more as a labor hall. 

Now, as far as the breaks go, there are ways around that. I have worked in a local one venue that we were 10 minutes away from finishing focus and coming up on break. I looked at the steward and asked if we could push 10 and take the break when the focus was over. We were having a good day, everyone was happy, and all the hands agreed and we pushed 10. One more reason every time I show up to a call at a new venue/crew I walk in with a dozen donuts for the first break. 6 bucks keeps everyone happy and I can bend rules here or there. Attitude is everything.


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## MrsFooter (Jan 13, 2012)

*Re: Joining USA 829*


SteveB said:


> Now is that to state that every IATSE local is chock full of experienced stagehands, some with ETCP certification ?. Hardly. How many of these locals have enough work to allow it's members to gain the skill set found at the busiest locals ?. ****ed few typically. How many of these locals are made up of members that are moonlighting as stagehands, as they cannot support their families on the limited amount of work in the local. That's a typical scenario, sad to say.



I think this is where much of the prejudice against union hands has come from. I have worked with many union hands belonging to many different locals. Some of them were fantastic at what they did and worked incredibly hard for us, and I'd gladly work by their side any day. Some of them were literally picked up at the homeless shelter or halfway house 30 minutes before the call. (I wish I were making that up, but both of those situations actually happened at different houses I've worked at.) It all depends on the particular local. What gets frustrating is when instead of getting talented hands with great work ethics, (like many of you gentlemen on this forum,) we get a junkie who's never pushed a box or held a wrench before today and shot crack into his eyeballs 20 minutes ago.

Unfortunately, simply being a union member no longer speaks of the member's skill sets. Especially when you move away from the larger markets into areas that don't get a ton of work, the talent pool from which to pull from becomes smaller and more diluted. The guys that are good get snapped up by houses, often leaving a crew of guys that don't get enough work to really develop their skills. Which, in turn, makes people who are in the position to give those guys work hesitate to do so because their skills aren't developed. It's a vicious cycle.


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## Esoteric (Jan 13, 2012)

*Re: Joining USA 829*

A couple of things:

1. I agree there are good guys and scumbags on both sides.
2. You get a half hour unpaid lunch at 6 hours in Texas. You also get 1 15 minute break at 4 hours and 1 at 8 hours. Those are paid. But there are no regulations on when they must be taken (except they can not end a shift).
3. If unions weren't so... Unbending they would probably get more work. That is another problem with unions, they make for an adversarial relationship rather than a cooperative one. It is built into their core.
4. I have only done one gig in Tennessee, so perhaps my evaluation of them was unfair. But I needed two electricians for 6 hours. First off I had to hire 3 guys. Secondly they were only going to work 4:45 minutes out of the 6 hours. Then they sent me 2 carps and a box pusher. I sent them back and they tried to tell me I owed the 4 hour minimum anyway. The whole thing was a farce (I never signed the labor contract, so I owed them nothing). I ended up hiring 2 local theater electricians who were union hands but never got a call from the labor manager and a local industrial electrician. And I am glad I did, I would hate to have heard what the Union hands would have said when we had to do a 500' wire pull. I am sure they would have walked off the job.
5. Shiben I hear what you are saying, but I have two responses.
a. Like workers in every other job they have multiple layers of protection. First of all they can look out for themselves. Don't like working conditions? Go somewhere else. Secondly, they can call OSHA. Down here at least OSHA LOVES to investigate.
b. They work in a dangerous industry. Sure. but they chose to work in that industry. Don't like the risk? Get into another line of work.
6. Also Shiben, again, unions create an adversarial atmosphere. That just isn't acceptable. You have to work with management (and labor) not against each other.
7. By the way my crews take frequent breaks, we sometimes take two meals (if we work through lunch and dinner), which I usually provide, I pay very well, everyone does what needs to be done to get the job done, we work in a spirit of cooperation to get the job done. I wish I had worked with some of the Stewards you guys have. Mine have all been completely unforgiving on the rules.

IMHO unions provide no value to anyone, promote an adversarial atmosphere, and I would not be upset if every union in the nation was broken.


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## shiben (Jan 13, 2012)

*Re: Joining USA 829*


MrsFooter said:


> Unfortunately, simply being a union member no longer speaks of the member's skill sets. Especially when you move away from the larger markets into areas that don't get a ton of work, the talent pool from which to pull from becomes smaller and more diluted. The guys that are good get snapped up by houses, often leaving a crew of guys that don't get enough work to really develop their skills. Which, in turn, makes people who are in the position to give those guys work hesitate to do so because their skills aren't developed. It's a vicious cycle.


 
I would imagine being in a right to work state would make that sort of thing all the worse.


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## Esoteric (Jan 13, 2012)

*Re: Joining USA 829*


shiben said:


> I would imagine being in a right to work state would make that sort of thing all the worse.


 
Yup, because no one has to be in the union no one wants to.


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## Footer (Jan 13, 2012)

*Re: Joining USA 829*

A labor union is there to protect their members. They are there to keep their members in work. They are there to train there members and keep their numbers strong. They are not there to be a labor company. Unfortunately, in our world many of the IA locals are more of a labor company then a union. When I was in Georgia, the IA local competed against two other labor companies (both of these other companies 1099'ed all of their employees). If you expect a great workforce, hire them for 40 hours a week for 50 weeks a year. If you just need a few guys now and then, you can't expect them to know everything. This is true with IA and outside of IA. Just looking down my call list, I have 60 guys on it. 10 are stellar. 20 are great. 20 can do the work. The last 10 I would rather have my cat come in and work then call them. Same thing goes for IA. However, they keep the 50 guys working and give the guy who calls once in a blue moon the 10. If you start hiring guys constantly, then your going to get better guys. Also remember your dealing with a labor union, not a labor company. If you want to deal with a labor company, call your local temp labor supplier.


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## Esoteric (Jan 13, 2012)

*Re: Joining USA 829*

Good post Footer. Which is why I prefer to deal with companies that only have 20 exceptional hands. If they don't have anyone then they don't have anyone and I call the next company. If all the good guys are out of hands then I call a day labor company, but they don't charge me $25/hr. They don't send me trash and try to pawn it off (and charge me as much) as the crown jewels.


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## SteveB (Jan 13, 2012)

*Re: Joining USA 829*


Esoteric said:


> Good post Footer. Which is why I prefer to deal with companies that only have 20 exceptional hands. If they don't have anyone then they don't have anyone and I call the next company. If all the good guys are out of hands then I call a day labor company, but they don't charge me $25/hr. They don't send me trash and try to pawn it off (and charge me as much) as the crown jewels.



Esoteric

I could not help but wonder, having read all of your posts here on this subject, that possibly your anti-union attitude comes off during your dealings with the IATSE local ?, and that might be part of the problem with the attitudes of both the BA at the local in terms of who they send you, as well as any attitude and/or work ethics the crew gives you. 

I'm, speculating off course, but humans are pretty good at picking up vibes and possibly they get a big negative off you. 

Mind that I don't know you except here on CB so could be totally off-base, but throughout all this sometimes heated discussion, I could not help wondering just how much real effort you put in, actually trying to make the union situation work. Have you ever sat down with the BA and discussed your issues with the crew and work rules ?. The BA's are there to get their members work, and the attitude of the IA International office on down is generally to bend over backwards to get their members work. Many. many locals, including IA 1 here in NYC have contracts with venues that some of the older members would shake their heads at, what with pay scale, relaxed hours, coffee breaks, overtime, no minimums, etc... our facility including. I know for a fact that Jim Claffey, currently the head at Local One, worked our contract negotiations to the extent that our Prod. Manager, who had a lot of prior experience negotiating IA contracts, was actually surprised at how favorable the contract was for management. The Local wanted it's foot in the door and understood they were dealing with a state agency that was used to playing hardball with it's unions, thus there is and was a big reality check that Local One was not going to get the same contract they had at the Met. Opera. That is not unusual in today's economic environment and was the reason I stated that IATSE was one of the better unions in terms if understanding the economic realities. 

Just food for thought about what comes across as a blatant anti-union attitude in a business where union representation has generally been a good thing. 

Especially for designers, as the OP was seemingly happy to have joined.


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## mstaylor (Jan 13, 2012)

*Re: Joining USA 829*

I run a non union crew, one for my home arena, the other for a local company. Many of the guys overlap because we are in a small area. A few of my guys make a living at it, most others have regular jobs and work for me as needed. I have some that have been with me for 10 to 25 years, others work a few shows and are never seen again. 
Our standard work rules are 4 hour minimums, a midmorning break and a midafternoon break, both 15 minutes. Lunch is between four to five hours, one hour nonpaid if they go offsite, 1/2 hour paid if catered. All that is flexable, we let the show take the lead unless they get stupid about it, then I insist on the break. Many times the breaks are staggered if that is what the show wants. Some union houses insist the the room goes dark during lunch, we have no such rule. My general rule is once the riggers go in the air, they stay in the air. If they take a break, they do so on the steel. For a normal show, they do not break for meals until they are done.
I have a mix of very good, experienced guys to good hands to box pushers. I make no secret of that when I advance a show. When I go to another building, I assume the same thing is true there.


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## Esoteric (Jan 13, 2012)

*Re: Joining USA 829*

I haven't had this attitude always. It has taken years to get to this point. I was on the IA call list for over 8 years. I was an apprentice rigger. I am always cordial with those supplying labor to me. My vendors all love me. I am always looking for solutions.

On the other hand I used to love some of the stupid rules when I was on a union call. I once made $100 an hour because of all the penalties I racked up. But now that I am management, I see the damage they do. I think I have a unique view having seen both sides of the situation. If I went back to being labor, I would not join the IA.

The answer I always got from BAs? Those are the rules. Take them or leave them. You don't want (or do want) _______________? Call a day labor company. Sure we will send you 3 electricians (and 2 carps and a box pusher show up). The stewards I have dealt with are just as bad. You want a carp to plug in that light sitting under a piece of scenery 6 inches from his hand? Nope, the electrician has to come down off of his 30' ladder and do it.

I was not always like this. The IA has made me this way.

Of course we have really gotten OT as none of this really applies to USA.


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## shiben (Jan 13, 2012)

*Re: Joining USA 829*


Esoteric said:


> I haven't had this attitude always. It has taken years to get to this point. I was on the IA call list for over 8 years. I was an apprentice rigger. I am always cordial with those supplying labor to me. My vendors all love me. I am always looking for solutions.
> 
> On the other hand I used to love some of the stupid rules when I was on a union call. I once made $100 an hour because of all the penalties I racked up. But now that I am management, I see the damage they do. I think I have a unique view having seen both sides of the situation. If I went back to being labor, I would not join the IA.
> 
> ...


 
I can see that. My personal feeling is that it all comes back to Right To Work rules. If the union is busted, why bust their ass to make contracts that make sense for both parties? They have to offer some advantage to their workers, and so they do that by being hard liners on the rules. What incentive is there to not do it? Now, if the RTW rules were not there, you might be looking at a situation where the union would want to organize your house, and do so in a way that worked with you on it. If they are forced to just be another labor contractor but one that relies on having members, not always working, just dues paying, they need to offer their members something to keep them around, and that is strict adherence to the rules.


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## Esoteric (Jan 14, 2012)

I see what you are getting at Shiben, but I think you are blaming the market when the unions themselves are to blame. In 90% of industries (entertainment being one of them) the free market provides all the protection a worker needs. When you add the additional protection provided by OSHA then unions become useless and if anything counterproductive. Especially for members that must pay regardless if they work or not.

As far as what the union has to offer to stay in business, who cares? If they can't provide enough benefits for their members to stay in business they should go out of business. Really, the only reason unions are still around is governmental protection (in the form of closed shops). And if slavish adherence to the rules is all the have to offer, I don't think they would last very long.

Unfortunately there are enough "union guys" and governmental protections that unions stick around even though they have long outlived their usefulness. I would like to see how unions would do if closed shops were abolished across the nation. Without that protection I wonder if unions could function?

I know there are a lot of cities in Texas where the unions are constantly operating in the red or just in the black.

Without a closed shop you can work more, get paid better, and still have all the benefits without being in a union. They just can't compete. Which is why all the best technicians down here are nonunion freelancers and work for the production houses, while the union gets the leftovers (which explains why calls are so bad out here, heck as recently as 2004 in order to meet a call for WWE RAW it took the combined San Antonio and Austin Locals PLUS temps).

Lets abolish closed shops and allow everyone to compete in an open, free market.


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## DuckJordan (Jan 14, 2012)

Esoteric said:


> I see what you are getting at Shiben, but I think you are blaming the market when the unions themselves are to blame. In 90% of industries (entertainment being one of them) the free market provides all the protection a worker needs. When you add the additional protection provided by OSHA then unions become useless and if anything counterproductive. Especially for members that must pay regardless if they work or not.
> 
> As far as what the union has to offer to stay in business, who cares? If they can't provide enough benefits for their members to stay in business they should go out of business. Really, the only reason unions are still around is governmental protection (in the form of closed shops). And if slavish adherence to the rules is all the have to offer, I don't think they would last very long.
> 
> ...



I agree with most things but when you say all the best techs are non union i have to call the BS flag on, I know of at least 2 Union members from that area who are working broadway shows. Oh and btw could easily beat you in knowledge and skill in almost any part of the industry. Unions did have their time, But when states started enforcing labor laws. (SD is also a right to work state) there really isn't a place for it. 

I know the local 220 union here in sioux falls is on the verge of bankruptcy and utter collapse due mostly by companies having issues spending $17 a head when an average worker here makes 13-16$ for skilled trades. OH by the way that 17$ that the union charges per head I get about $11 from on top of having to pay dues on what I actually make. I'm not a card holder and considering they work in about 3 venues around town. That are very likely to be shut out of soon no reason for it. I also know for a fact 80% of the union guys know little to nothing about shows. They are mostly neck down guys. Who can't even figure out how to push a **** road case. I've worked 3 events with them. There are about 3 guys who know what they are doing. And thats out of a pool of 20 active members.

This same union is responsible several times for filing for bankruptcy because of the "head" decided it was okay to line his pockets with the union dues. I'm sorry but this is getting more and more common. Yeah there are a few bad apples the problem is, unlike apples when one goes bad it attracts others.

I don't feel unions fill a role anymore. You can get life insurance for the same amount as the union charges on your own personal time, you can get more contracts and work days by not being union, and workers comp here at least in SD is required by the owners of the company you are working under. If you are freelancing at a certain venue I work in and you get hurt on the job, we are required to pay you workman's comp.

Sorry if I piss some of you off but when I looked at joining the union here and read how much I'd be paying in and what I'd be getting out. Its better that I find my own work.


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## mstaylor (Jan 14, 2012)

DuckJordan said:


> I agree with most things but when you say all the best techs are non union i have to call the BS flag on, I know of at least 2 Union members from that area who are working broadway shows. Oh and btw could easily beat you in knowledge and skill in almost any part of the industry.


I know many guys touring that are union, many were not when they got the job. Many guys get cards once they get on the road, then move company to company from there. 
Companies like Feld and Troika not only help you get a card, they cross train and send techs to schools to improve. I have several guys that went that route, including my son.


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## Esoteric (Jan 14, 2012)

Yeah Jordan I wasn't clear. I know a few local guys who are great and have their cards, but they hardly ever work under their cards. I always get them through a local labor house.

There might even be a couple of great card carrying, IA tattoo sporting, true believer union hands here, but I have never had the pleasure to meet him. I was using absolutes for emphasis. Of course there are good union hands and bad nonunion hands, but here, good union hands are a small, small minority.

As I am sure you know though, working on Broadway is not a measure of skill or knowledge. I know some dumb as rocks guys that work on Broadway because they knew someone.


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## meatpopsicle (Jan 14, 2012)

Esoteric said:


> I see what you are getting at Shiben, but I think you are blaming the market when the unions themselves are to blame. In 90% of industries (entertainment being one of them) the free market provides all the protection a worker needs. When you add the additional protection provided by OSHA then unions become useless and if anything counterproductive. Especially for members that must pay regardless if they work or not.
> 
> Lets abolish closed shops and allow everyone to compete in an open, free market.



I take issue with this statement. I don't know about SD or Texas but letting the freemarket provide all the protection that a worker needs here in NY is a recipe for being taken advantage of. I don't see the freemarket making sure that my pension and healthplan are paid into nor that they are protected at all. In how many industries have corporations re-organized specifically in order to get out from under contracts that they have obligations too both for current workers and retirees? Kodak is an example here (one appropriate for Gern and I)

When I was working Non-Union for a major cable network I worked on several TV shows, the last of which was very successful (until the star took a powder). All during production the producer lamented that she was afraid that the Union might come and organize the show. The rates were the same 5 years after the 1st show I worked on because "that's all this network will pay" Having the union come down would "end the show for the network". After the second season the network ponied up a 4 million dollar signing bonus for the star and calculated that there was a 10 million payoff for him in merchandising. We got, as department heads, a 25.00 per week raise. There were no benefits. That show is still being sold in re-runs and is still making the network money.

My first TV show in the union I made twice as much money as a 3rd than I did as a non-union Department head, plus there were contributions to my healthcare plan that I got through the union and towards a pension for my retirement. I looked at that check and realized that I had been hosed by the prior show. In my end of the business its the IA that is looking out for workers and their futures. No one else.

Still, I see a major difference in the experiences that different people have with different locals around the country. Certainly the work rules and compensation for Gern and I are different than a union stagehand in the middle of the country. Markets are different and locals are different. That is certain. It makes it harder to talk about work rules. Sort of Apples and oranges (or bad apples and oranges if you like).

And finally a word about OSHA. In my experience they have offered no protection before the fact to my industry. They might be called if there were an accident and then fines might be levied. But prior to the fact? Not once here. Its laughable to bring up OSHA as a protection to workers here in my end of the business. Truthfully the only input to safety is the Network safety guy that comes around from NBC/Uni. And that's to protect them from litigation. Still there is more effort put into education on Sexual Harassment in the workplace than into safety.


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## Esoteric (Jan 14, 2012)

This is nothing personal, but what I hear from a lot of union people is a lack of personal responsibility. Does the free market protect your pension and health plan? It sure does, by giving you the ability to protect yourself. Don't like your pension plan? Get a new one. Don't like your health plan? Switch.

No offense to anyone, but there is no such thing as objective worth. Something is only worth what someone will pay for it. In the case of a tv show, without the star the show doesn't exist. So they get a big paycheck. Grips and hands are a dime a dozen. Even good ones, and so are paid accordingly.

As far as the union shutting down a show, I could see that. Plus you have to look at the big picture. They are like a virus. Once they get in and get a foothold it is that much harder to get them out, and they begin to spread and consume.

Down here OSHA loves to investigate. Call them with a complaint and they will be there in a flash. But again it is up to the worker to be responsible for their own safety.

Once again no offense, the IA film guys on this board seem like great guys and I would totally buy you guys a round of beers to hear your stories. But I stand by my assertions of unions as a whole. And this is from a guy who was a union hand for 8 years and who's brother is a Teamster for life (we don't talk about unions at family gatherings).


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## shiben (Jan 14, 2012)

Esoteric said:


> This is nothing personal, but what I hear from a lot of union people is a lack of personal responsibility. Does the free market protect your pension and health plan? It sure does, by giving you the ability to protect yourself. Don't like your pension plan? Get a new one. Don't like your health plan? Switch.
> 
> No offense to anyone, but there is no such thing as objective worth. Something is only worth what someone will pay for it. In the case of a tv show, without the star the show doesn't exist. So they get a big paycheck. Grips and hands are a dime a dozen. Even good ones, and so are paid accordingly.
> 
> ...


 
Dude, the free market does not protect you for anything. Free markets got pension plans sold by companies as assets. Free markets are cutting healthcare and wages, making you have to go buy it yourself on a shrunken paycheck. Free markets are great for lots of things, but not a single one of those is protecting the worker. And you always mention that workers need to protect themselves, thats kind of why you join a union: to protect yourself. That way you dont have a dozen people trying to decide whats a safety violation, there are just straight rules for that. Everyone negotiates as one for contracts, so you dont get hosed by the contract. Everyone gets pensions taken care of and that helps protect your pension and others, same for welfare and if you get hurt. The free market and federal government do absolutely nothing to protect you. The feds do what they have to do to keep their jobs, then go right back to looking the other way. The free market is biased towards viewing labor as expendable and super cheap. Unfortunately, that means the vast majority are screwed in a free market system. Unions help to balance it out a little bit.


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## Esoteric (Jan 14, 2012)

I can't agree Shiben. The free market is the ultimate protection. You don't like your working conditions? Work somewhere else. You don't like the product you are getting? Go buy somewhere else. In a strict labor union situation you have no choice. Don't like the product you get from the union? Too bad, it is the only product available, you will take what you get and like it. Don't like your working situation, or think you could earn more on your own? Too bad, you have to work under the current union contract (one reason I left the local, I could make more as a freelance electrician/rigger than I could being sent out as a box pusher by the local). Want to keep working and feeding your family because you don't agree with the ridiculous strike? Too bad, you have to walk and watch your family starve because the Union management wants an extra 2% on the contract to line their pockets with.

What a lot of people don't see if that at some point in the hierarchy, the Union becomes management. They have their own interests in mind as well, not just that of the labor.

Give me a free market where I am in charge of my own destiny any day of the week.

Unions aren't necessarily the problem though. Like every other Production and Labor house they are only looking out for their employees. Closed shops are the problem (although keep in mind power is always with labor). 

Production and labor houses serve the same function as unions for their employees, and without the ridiculous rules and slavish adherence to them. All the production companies I hire from serve the same purpose and their workers have the same benefits as unions. What is the difference?

Closed shops and slavish adherence to tradition.

I am not anti-union. I am anti closed shop.

Unions can continue to exist and that is fine, but make every state a right to work state and let unions compete in an open and free market. If anything it would make the unions better. The free market makes everyone who participates in it better.

We actually have Teamsters and UAW here in Texas (an odd sight to be sure), but all their power derives from their ability to call strikes in other states where closed shops are legal.


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## mstaylor (Jan 14, 2012)

I'm kind of the middle ground guy in this. I overlist with 22, I generally work nonunion. I see advantages and disadvantages in both systems. I do want to bring up one instance that I disagreed with when it was said and runs counter to everything union guys believe in. 
After the Indiana disaster last year one of the hands said they didn't feel good about going up but if they didn't they wouldn't get anymore work. My stance is if you feel something is dangerous, even life threatening, don't do it. I don't care if it hampers the show refuse to do it. Then the union backed away from their training records. That disappointed me, they pride themselves on the quality of their training then ran away from it when it hits the fan.


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## Footer (Jan 14, 2012)

Esoteric said:


> I can't agree Shiben. The free market is the ultimate protection. You don't like your working conditions? Work somewhere else. You don't like the product you are getting? Go buy somewhere else. In a strict labor union situation you have no choice. Don't like the product you get from the union? Too bad, it is the only product available, you will take what you get and like it. Don't like your working situation, or think you could earn more on your own? Too bad, you have to work under the current union contract (one reason I left the local, I could make more as a freelance electrician/rigger than I could being sent out as a box pusher by the local). Want to keep working and feeding your family because you don't agree with the ridiculous strike? Too bad, you have to walk and watch your family starve because the Union management wants an extra 2% on the contract to line their pockets with.
> 
> What a lot of people don't see if that at some point in the hierarchy, the Union becomes management. They have their own interests in mind as well, not just that of the labor.
> 
> ...


 
This is what the free market has done: 


> Crew One Productions is the largest technical staffing agency for concerts and corporate events in the southeast. Crew One contracts with workers for all areas of live entertainment including audio, staging, lighting, carpentry, wardrobe, forklift operators, and rigging. Crew One has locations in Nashville, Atlanta, Memphis and Chattanooga. Workers are retained on a free-lance basis, are required to have reliable transportation, *an independent business,* and may be asked to perform heavy lifting.



In other words, you show up, you get at 1099, you leave. You get hurt, not our problem. We caused you to get hurt? Not our problem. 

Because the market sucks in general, people will do this work. Odds are they don't know what they are getting themselves into... they just want to feed their family. So, you take a chance... a scafolding falls on you... your out, your familys out, its all over.


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## Scarrgo (Jan 14, 2012)

Esoteric said:


> My old Mentor and a couple of other LDs I work with from time to time were asking me if I would like to go through the peer review process for USA (they are all members of USA). But I would do at the most 3 gigs a year that I need USA membership for. Would it be worth it to those of you in USA?


 
If the 3 or so gigs are worth the money and the feather in your cap, than by all means do it, if not, say no thanks. You can think about it again the next year the ask.

I can be a bit long winded, so you have been warned, this is my personal feelings ONLY, and I can change as I see fit. If you dont like them, thats fine by me. You have your right.

On a side note, I have done several tours in my short time on this earth, I have worked with High School kids, homeless people brought in off the street, men in orange jump suits(who gave that guy a power saw?), boot camp kids, college kids, cadets, Local 1 to Local # whatever. 

They all have really good folks, and really bad folks. The one thing I have learned along the way is, we all have to get along, we dont have to like each other, we will be leaving in a couple of hours anyway. There are places I would really like to stay at and others I just cant get away from fast enough.

This forum has the ability to help our young up and comers and our slightly older friends learn how to make their show the best it can possible be. 

We need to be careful on how we as a group come across when we have a disagreement on things like is the union a good idea to join.

We can not and should not tell anyone that they have to join or not. We dont walk in their shoes or maybe even live in that city, a civil conversation is a good thing, listing pros a cons, as that is what how every decision should be done. I have made my share of very bad decisions.

I have my position on unions, but thats my position, if you really want to know, PM me or start a new thread. I will be glad to talk about it. Untill than, I have left my advise to the OP above and good luck.

Have a great day.
Sean...


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## Esoteric (Jan 15, 2012)

Footer said:


> This is what the free market has done:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
A. That is not quite true. Every employer is required to carry workmans comp, even if you use 1099 employees. You get hurt on the job you get workmans comp. Period.

B. Getting set up as a business is free, and getting your own workmans comp is cheaper than union dues for a year. In fact, in Texas you can get life, liability, workmans comp, and health insurance cheaper than union dues for a a year.

C. If you take a job and don't know what it entails that is on you. Again, personal responsibility.

So your post only proves my point. The free market has produced the better solution.

And, if you don't like the system Crew One has set up, you can work for another company.

However, what choice do I have if I want to work in a closed shop but not be a union member? That is another thing unions destroy, the right to choose.

The free market is always the best solution. If unions can compete in the free market, so be it. If not they deserve to go under.


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## EBB (Jan 15, 2012)

*Re: Joining USA 829*


shiben said:


> I would imagine being in a right to work state would make that sort of thing all the worse.


 
Actually I have to disagree. I am not saying that you aren't right. But there are cases like Local 115- which I am out of, where crews are happy to come through. Even though it's a right-to-work state, we have a great union of skilled and unskilled people. But it's a well balanced union. Even when we have large shows that come through town- such as Wicked at the moment. We still have very good people working arena shows and other theatre shows at the same time that are all skilled and can handle the normal tours that come through. 

But of course you are right. I have heard of places that have that issue. But I never count right to work states as having more issues than places that have 3 different unions working the same show and houses that can only let union hands touch the tours gear.

edit- I want to point out Local 115 is the IATSE local out of Jacksonville. But we have Northern Florida since Tallahasee doesn't have it's own local.


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## meatpopsicle (Jan 15, 2012)

Esoteric said:


> A. That is not quite true. Every employer is required to carry workmans comp, even if you use 1099 employees. You get hurt on the job you get workmans comp. Period.
> 
> B. Getting set up as a business is free, and getting your own workmans comp is cheaper than union dues for a year. In fact, in Texas you can get life, liability, workmans comp, and health insurance cheaper than union dues for a a year.
> 
> ...


 


So your postition is that workman's comp takes the place of health insurance? Really?

Health insurance for my family would be in excess of 1500.00 per year, no dental, no perscription. That's 6 times what my dues are. 

Even a DBA, no incorporation, is at least 150.00 (more than half my union dues) and carrying my own comp and liability would be in excess of 2000.00 per year.

If being a hand is what I do and the company that has the whole town is a 1099 shop that has no benefits and only workman's comp, where's the choice there? Your view of personal responsibility says that I have to work there or go somewhere else. And that I have to have my own insurance for my family and liability for the job. Pretty Anne Randian bro.

Union means we all band together to make things better for each of us. If that isn't happening down in your neck of the woods I'm sorry. But I think you have a pretty narrow view of the union, and the state of the entertainment business in general, to be making sweeping statements like these.


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## DuckJordan (Jan 15, 2012)

meatpopsicle said:


> So your postition is that workman's comp takes the place of health insurance? Really?
> 
> Health insurance for my family would be in excess of 1500.00 per year, no dental, no perscription. That's 6 times what my dues are.
> 
> ...


 


How are you paying that little in dues? Don't you get charged per "paycheck" a certain percentage that the union takes out? I'm sorry your situation is by far not the norm. Union dues per year here are roughly $350 per year, and 5% on top of taxes take out of each paycheck you receive. Not to mention they require us to pay in to get life insurance, workman's comp, and other such benefits. sorry the union here would take more than half of my yearly salary.


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## meatpopsicle (Jan 15, 2012)

DuckJordan said:


> How are you paying that little in dues? Don't you get charged per "paycheck" a certain percentage that the union takes out? I'm sorry your situation is by far not the norm. Union dues per year here are roughly $350 per year, and 5% on top of taxes take out of each paycheck you receive. Not to mention they require us to pay in to get life insurance, workman's comp, and other such benefits. sorry the union here would take more than half of my yearly salary.



Our dues are 245.00 and we pay 2 1/2 % of our check to the union. We don't have a contribution to our health plan. We have a huge market and a lot of members.

For arguments sake lets say that your yearly salary is 30,000. You would have too pay in 15,000 a year? How do you explain that?


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## shiben (Jan 15, 2012)

meatpopsicle said:


> Our dues are 245.00 and we pay 2 1/2 % of our check to the union. We don't have a contribution to our health plan. We have a huge market and a lot of members.
> 
> For arguments sake lets say that your yearly salary is 30,000. You would have too pay in 15,000 a year? How do you explain that?


 
Being in some place like North Dakota or Wyoming where IA has like 3 members?


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## DuckJordan (Jan 15, 2012)

Pretty much 20 active members. 10th of which are either not paying in due to them "running" it or not working enough to afford to pay in.

Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk


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## Esoteric (Jan 15, 2012)

Yeah out of $40k that I earned my last year in the union I ended up paying more than $8k.


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## SteveB (Jan 15, 2012)

Esoteric, you need to check your facts. 

1) You stated:

"A. That is not quite true. Every employer is required to carry workmans comp, even if you use 1099 employees. You get hurt on the job you get workmans comp. Period."

Here's a quote from the Texas Dept. of Insurance website: Workers' Compensation Resources for Employers

"Workers’ compensation is a state-regulated insurance program that provides covered employees with income and medical benefits if they sustain a work-related injury or illness. Texas private employers can choose whether or not to provide workers’ compensation insurance coverage for their employees. In most cases, your employer is required to notify you whether or not 
they provide coverage."

Further reading elsewhere indicates that while many companies purchase their own private insurance, mostly to limit liability and usually as a requirement by their general liability insurance companies, it is not out of the goodness of their hearts as it were, and the fact remains that Texas does not require WC and that leaves the employees vulnerable. 

2) 1099 "Employees" are not employees, They are contractors and possibly that little distinction escapes you and many employers who choose to hire people as independent contractors to escape their obligations under federal law, in terms of when someone working for you is an employee. 

Beyond pointing out those simple little errors in your argument, I'm finished with this discussion. I think the lesson learned is that closed minds tend to stay closed.


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## Esoteric (Jan 15, 2012)

You are correct Steve. You are not required by law to have workers comp. My liability company requires that I have it. But you are totally right that state law does not require it. That being said, all the companies I work with carry it (because of insurance requirements). I actually never bothered to check why I had to have it. I just knew I did.

When did I ever say anyone did anything out of the kindness of their hearts?

No one (besides charities) do anything from the kindness of their hearts. That is why the free market works. It is based on self interest. That is why it works.

I know very well the difference between a contractor and an employee (probably better than 99% of the people on this board). There are many, many intricacies that most people don't realize. But, for ease of discussion I was using the coloquial meaning of employee.

You and I disagree on one more thing. I believe that there can be intelligent, open minded, well meaning people on both sides of this issue. I don't have to agree with them (I believe they are dead wrong), but honest, civil conversation doesn't have to end with conversion to one side or the other to be fruitful. Sometimes the conversation in itself can be fruit enough. Even though you disagree with me, I still consider you (and most of the pro union guys on this board) intelligent, honest, hard working, open minded, and well meaning people and I am better off for having known you.


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## xander (Jan 15, 2012)

Esoteric said:


> A. Every employer is required to carry workmans comp, even if you use 1099 employees. You get hurt on the job you get workmans comp. Period.


 
I gave my opinion on the OP 6 months ago when this thread started, and I have kept my opinions on unions to myself because just reading this thread makes me so angry I have to walk away sometimes. I just felt the need to point out that the statement above is just blatantly, 100% false. 

-Tim


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## Esoteric (Jan 15, 2012)

xander said:


> I gave my opinion on the OP 6 months ago when this thread started, and I have kept my opinions on unions to myself because just reading this thread makes me so angry I have to walk away sometimes. I just felt the need to point out that the statement above is just blatantly, 100% false.
> 
> -Tim


 
You are absolutely correct.


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## DavidNorth (Jan 15, 2012)

There is more thing to keep in mind that I have yet to see discussed. The federal government has continued to tighten the description of contractor to the degree that what used to be a contractor years ago would now be called an employee. Companies have found that by using contractors, and not employees, saves a lot of money.

The basis for this is loss of payroll tax and benefit issues such as Social Security, health care and unemployment insurance.

The number of investigations continues to rise. If you have people working for you as contractors and they are doing employee level work, be aware of getting caught and fined.

Seems to me that for specific individuals being hired on contract, the government will frown upon a lot of yearly 1099 work from a specific company but could probably support a labor company of some sort.

David


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## Esoteric (Jan 15, 2012)

DavidNorth said:


> There is more thing to keep in mind that I have yet to see discussed. The federal government has continued to tighten the description of contractor to the degree that what used to be a contractor years ago would now be called an employee. Companies have found that by using contractors, and not employees, saves a lot of money.
> 
> The basis for this is loss of payroll tax and benefit issues such as Social Security, health care and unemployment insurance.
> 
> ...


 
You are absolutely right. My accountant and lawyer gave me 5 questions to ask to make sure that my contract labor is actually contract labor.


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## DavidNorth (Jan 15, 2012)

In my years as an active IATSE member, we had a labor company that was able to provide quality technicians and a decent overhire when needed. To the members, insurance and retirement benefits were able to be afforded through the billings for the work provided.

David


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## mstaylor (Jan 16, 2012)

I am a sports official, I used to be a builder and I am in this business. I am well versed in the 1099 world as well as the employee side of the business. When I officiate I carry insurance for injury, liabilty and assault. When I was a GC I carried WC on my subs if they didn't have their own. As a stagehand I carried nothing but as far as I know the contractors did. I know a friend of mine got hurt on a union gig and recieved WC.


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## KeeperoftheKeys (Jan 17, 2012)

I can't say I read the whole thread, I may do at some later point but I have to say that as someone who is used to working outside of the US every time I read about how stuff works with the unions in the US it scares me.

I guess it comes with the cut-throught market-rules-all attitude that the US has, you have to have such strong representation...

Here if you get hurt on the job the employer/insurance/govt continues paying until you have recuperated (if you're incapacitated I think the government takes over but the employer also has to pay a hefty sum).

I don't know if the following is really what happens in union work but that is what I always hear rumored about union work in America being completly limited to what you came to do:
If someone from a different department needs a hand and I'm not busy I can help him without worrying that some union will want my head "because for that 1 minute of help (lifting a cable), another (qualified) person should have been hired".

Though I do hope that at some point I will also be taking jobs in the US I sincerely hope that unions/labor laws by then will be more like some other countries....


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## derekleffew (Jan 17, 2012)

KeeperoftheKeys said:


> ...Here if you get hurt on the job ...


Where exactly, or approximately, is "_here_"? 

(Your profile does not specify. Just curious. 
[To update/edit your profile: At the top of the page, click on "Settings." Halfway down the new page, on the left side, click on "Edit Profile." Remember to "Save Changes" all the way at the bottom when finished.])


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## jstroming (Jan 17, 2012)

KeeperoftheKeys said:


> I can't say I read the whole thread, I may do at some later point but I have to say that as someone who is used to working outside of the US every time I read about how stuff works with the unions in the US it scares me.
> 
> I guess it comes with the cut-throught market-rules-all attitude that the US has, you have to have such strong representation...
> 
> ...



Having done quite a few shows in several European countries, I can say that 95% of the stagehands I have worked with think US stagehand unions are comedic. And most of the foreign stagehands I've met who HAVE worked with US stagehand unions don't think it's funny, they dread coming back to the US for shows if their companies want to send them.

But again, these rules change from city to city, venue to venue, and even show to show. I have worked with union crews who will jump jurisdiction if they know they'll be out in under the minimum, and then a week later I'm in their venue again and they pull the ol' "It's not me, man, the Business Agent and other guys in the office are on our *ss about jumping jurisdiction!". Then for load-out "Well the stewards not here so we'll help you to get you out of here early!!". HAHA whatever gets you off my back dude!

In several European countries I have worked in each venue will have a "Health & Safety Inspector" who's only job is to enforce health and safety rules. Yes they get on you for EVERYTHING under the sun (stepping one too many rungs of the ladder, not wearing steel toe boots when working with truss, etc) but in my opinion make things MUCH safer than unions I have worked with here in the US.

But again everything changes location to location. That's what is so valuable about hitting a road show here in the US that visits east to west coast and north to south cities. So many people work in one city and never get to see what stage producition is like in the rest of the US (and world!).


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## KeeperoftheKeys (Jan 17, 2012)

Privacy is a beatifull thing , although once I finally get around to creating my website advertising myself that will be gone too so I might as well...

"Here" for me would mainly be The Netherlands (Holland) and/or Israel.


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## SteveB (Jan 17, 2012)

KeeperoftheKeys said:


> I can't say I read the whole thread, I may do at some later point but I have to say that as someone who is used to working outside of the US every time I read about how stuff works with the unions in the US it scares me.
> 
> I guess it comes with the cut-throught market-rules-all attitude that the US has, you have to have such strong representation...
> 
> ...


 
I think it's fair to state that throughout the history of the labor movement in the US and up to about 50 year or so, the US government was vehemently opposed to the movement to unionize. To the point of assisting corporations by using the police and other methods to break the attempts.

The result is that most unions, being aware of the traditional and hostile attitudes of both companies and our own governments towards unions, adopted an attitude in return that the only help employees would get is from their union(s). Certainly the fact that there is no, or few standards, state to state as to provisions for workers compensation, universal health care much less general labor laws, as well as a "pro-business" attitude that that occurs with the occasional change in our political climate, makes the need for strong unions that much more necessary, today probably as much as any time in our history. We don't have our Uncle Sam looking out for us in the many ways's that a typical worker in many European countries takes for granted, and in some cases, such as the current political climate in Wisconsin, the government itself is hostile towards the unions that represents it's own state workers. This is happening in many states currently, thus unions are feeling the pressure through out the country

Along with that development of strong unions comes a great deal of rigidity when the unions need to be flexible and can't as the economy changes. Some unions are terrible at accommodating change and can justly be considered part of the problem. Other unions are pretty good at it, IATSE Local One and USA 829 are two unions I consider to be very good at being flexible and understanding and adapt well to change. Other IATSE locals throughout the US are not flexible, as many CB members have experienced.


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## snagger (Jan 25, 2012)

I’ve just spent a while reading this thread. The one thing that I did not see mentioned is our Employers. Live Nation, Disney, Universal, HBO NBC, Etcetera, smaller promoters and theater owners. I'm not talking about management or production. Employers. No one has discussed the entertainment companies, entities, holding companies. That is who we work for. Whether it a play or stage show, concert, touring show, movie, Broadway, TV,(Live, Live to tape)or Network or cable, that’s what I would like to mention. We don’t work for each other, we work for the companies who hold contracts with The IATSE of US and Canada. The venue and type of work is defined is not the issue here.
Entertainment. Currently it is one of the the highest grossing commodity on the planet. Once spices were traded, Gold, steel. All those items and the industrial revolution died. Carnegie, Rockefeller, Vanderbuilt Mellon and other Captains grew rich on the backs of workers in this country. They too complained about workers and denied them rights , fair wage and conditions. Those captains of industry called Senators, Congressmen and presidents to enforce company rules and break up labour. The government served as private militia for those that birthed the fortune 500 companies. The export of Entertainment is one of the only commodities the United States have left. It’s our largest export to the rest of the world. It doesn't mater where the DVD or game cartridge is pressed. American companies control and profit on Entertainment. Profit is the only consideration. To say that Unions made the cost to high to manufacture here is incorrect. To say that it was more profitable to make it cheaper somewhere else is to say there is profit to be made. Profit. 
A few years ago a reporter from the NYT wrote a biased article about rates of pay among stage hands and film crew. He misquoted many sources and his premise was that IA members are paid over scale. He also attacked a Broadway crew chief that earned over $200k a year. The Theater owner defended the crew chief’s pay in the they were lucky to have him and glad he was willing to do the job and get the show up and running. The same was true with the production company that willingly paid a Gaffer “street rate” A lot of money is riding on a million plus dollar day. The crew that is hired is trusted to deliver was the exec producers opinion. My experience has typically been that producers hire the best crew available. The best crew costs.
A very successful producer took me to dinner. They meant to turn me out and get me to join production and use my skills for their needs based on my years as an IA crew chief. They explained how they work with the IA to get contacts signed. They were quite candid about why they always use union crews. They sign a contract to protect production from the crew. Producers know the crew and labor has real strength. Not the Union, the crew. Think on this. The crew. The Designers, The Choreographers, The Production Electric, The Rigger, The Teamster, The Dance Captain, The Box Pusher, The Follow Spot Op and The Moving Light Tech and the Console Programmer are all THE CREW. Below the line costs... We don't add up to a 10-20% of the total project. My gross pay last week was less than last weeks bill the company spent on flowers for the Dressing room, Hotel room, H & MU room for the female lead. Her rider specifies she gets new arrangements each and every day. On a show last year the lead actor got 20 Million Dollars up front and a G3 Jet as a Bonus Plus a percentage of Box Office gross. I was asked to cut a few of my guys at 8 hours to help rein the budget. I did not.
I could give your many stories but my point is our employers spend recklessly. These Employers are protected by the US government. Not by Army so much, but by Tax and trade agreements.
I've read the stories here on this string and they mean infighting with rank and file grunts that only allows profit to be collected by our employers, money we leave on the table. If a crew member comes on my crew and isn’t working they are sent home. I suggest it’s the middle manager who is ineffective in this string. If you cant manage the crew, get out of the kitchen.
Esoteric: understood by or meant for only the select few who have special knowledge or interest.
My parting word. Esoteric, please don’t join Iatse Local 829


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