# Too many people in a theater?



## AlecIrwin (May 6, 2013)

I work as technical director for a small children's theater in my area. Often times, we will get 110 people to come and see shows in our theater that really should fit 60-70. The house is just a concrete floor with a handicap ramp to the stage, so most often I am asked to set up chairs all up the handicap ramp and in every nook and cranny I can find, which still leaves some people standing often. I am not worried about a fire so much, as the theater is small and the doors are close. However, it being a children's theater it is very chaotic when the shows are over and there is a mixture of kids running about and children running around playing, which makes me worry about someone tripping or falling off the ramp or stage or knocking over a speaker or something. It also makes it difficult for me, I did not physically have enough space to get out of my little "booth" until about 5 minutes of waiting for people to move. The theater is a fairly unprofessional environment as far as the shows go, would it be inappropriate to try and ask and work with the owner to come up with a safer system for the parents and children to meet at the end of the show? Maybe having all the kids walk around to the outside of the building, and have the parents meet them there? I don't want to overstep any boundaries or cause any trouble not worth causing.


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## josh88 (May 6, 2013)

Ignoring all the other issues I wouldn't ever want to put chairs on an incline up a ramp. I feel like that's asking for something to fall backwards and cause a lawsuit, not to mention the other safety issues of over crowding a space. There's like key a maximum occupancy rating or should be. Get a fire marshal to come through to determine how many people should be in there. That would give you a starting point for where to go next.


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## TheaterEd (May 6, 2013)

I think that asking to arrange a pick up spot for the children is not overstepping boundaries. It is a safety issue and effects your ability to do your job. 
Whenever I'm going to be having large groups, I ask their directors to try to plan an 'exit strategy' to try to give the audience incentive to leave as soon as possible so that I can begin to tear down and lock up. Something as simple as having the kids meet them outside, having a bake sale, or offering free coffee can empty your house pretty quickly.


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## jwolfkill (May 6, 2013)

AlecIrwin said:


> I work as technical director for a small children's theater in my area. Often times, we will get 110 people to come and see shows in our theater that really should fit 60-70. The house is just a concrete floor with a handicap ramp to the stage, so most often I am asked to set up chairs all up the handicap ramp and in every nook and cranny I can find, which still leaves some people standing often. I am not worried about a fire so much, as the theater is small and the doors are close. However, it being a children's theater it is very chaotic when the shows are over and there is a mixture of kids running about and children running around playing, which makes me worry about someone tripping or falling off the ramp or stage or knocking over a speaker or something. It also makes it difficult for me, I did not physically have enough space to get out of my little "booth" until about 5 minutes of waiting for people to move. The theater is a fairly unprofessional environment as far as the shows go, would it be inappropriate to try and ask and work with the owner to come up with a safer system for the parents and children to meet at the end of the show? Maybe having all the kids walk around to the outside of the building, and have the parents meet them there? I don't want to overstep any boundaries or cause any trouble not worth causing.



You SHOULD be worried about fire when 110 people are crammed into a space that can safely hold barely more than half that many. If the crowd is so thick that you're not able to get out of your booth for 5 minutes after a show ends, with the house lights working properly and [most] people in their right minds, what happens when a small fire fills the room with choking black smoke, the lights go out, panic sets in among parents who don't know where their children are or whether anyone is responsible for evacuating them, and people start falling over chairs placed in every nook and cranny? Just review the facts of the 2003 fire at The Station nightclub in Rhode Island for a sobering object lesson about what can happen when owners of "assembly buildings" (fire code terminology that includes theatres) don't take fire safety seriously. Any trouble that comes of inquiring into the safety of audience and performers (especially children) is "trouble worth causing." If the owner is exceeding occupancy limits set by the fire marshal and/or violating safety regulations by placing chairs in prohibited locations, please voice your concerns to him or her. If the owner's response doesn't reflect serious and thoughtful concern for the lives of people in the building, run, don't walk, to the fire marshal's office and raise your concerns there. If doing so means you lose your job, you're better off without it, IMHO.


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## BillConnerFASTC (May 6, 2013)

Was this building built as a theatre or place of assembly or is it a found space that was never really designed for how it's being used? If it was designed and presumably permitted and inspected as a place of assembly, the maximum occupancy permitted by the fire/building department should be posted. That's a start. After that and/or lacking that, you may have to risk becoming unpopular and perhaps unemployed for the sake of keeping people safe from crowd and fire hazards. You might try enlisting the help of a fire marshall office and explain the situation and your concerns and try to work towards a constructive resolution. I suspect that if you could continue to have 110 occupants but with some minor modifications of the facility and operating procedures to make it safe, it would be a "win" for all parties. If on the other hand you loose a third or half your box office, no one is really ahead.


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## AlecIrwin (May 6, 2013)

I forgot to mention the ramp is against the wall, so the people sitting on it wouldn't fall. The backs of the chairs sit against it. I will speak with a fire marshal and find out! Thanks Josh!

The theater offers free cookies to anyone in the audience, and the table for it is right next to the booth, which is frankly probably why that particular area gets filled so quickly. I will definitely make mention and try to put them somewhere that traffic will flow more out of the building! Thanks TheaterEd!

I didn't want to make it sound as if I had overlooked the possibility of a fire, there was just a more pressing issue to address. jwolf, you make a great point though. I think the ideal solution to all of this would be simply to have an extra night for the shows that expected such large crowds, but again with the boundaries thing, I believe we only have shows like these one night due to staffing and other expenses. Nonetheless, I will make a point to express the urgency of safety in our theater. Thanks!


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## josh88 (May 6, 2013)

Even with the backs against a wall they are sitting on an incline. That still means its possible for them to fall sideways.


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## AlecIrwin (May 6, 2013)

The ramp in about 30 feet long and only goes up to about 2 1/2'. It is a pretty subtle incline, and with the top of the ramp as the origin, the seats are at about a 15 degree angle facing the stage, do you think people are really likely to fall out of their chairs? I totally believe that it could happen, but I didn't think it would be a problem in this case.


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## museav (May 7, 2013)

As others have said, there is likely be a rated occupancy in terms of life safety and in that case the rated occupancy should be posted and enforced. A known history of repeatedly exceeding the rated occupancy and/or interfering with egress paths could impact any potential liability should there ever be even a minor problem, not to mention potentially open you up to fines for future and past violations. Perhaps large signs at the entrances stating the rated occupancy would help in enforcing it.

The 1:12 slope of the ramp suggests that it may be there for ADA accessibility compliance and thus also likely considered an egress path. If so then using it for seating may represent life safety and/or ADA compliance violations. Also, if use for seating the ramp may be considered public space rather than part of the 'stage', which could have implications in terms of requirements for railings, etc.

Your not being able to get out of the booth may represent not only a practical issue but also a potential life safety and perhaps ADA compliance issue.


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## josh88 (May 7, 2013)

Will someone fall over? who knows? I find its always better to assume the worst will happen and plan for that, if someone did, they'd be falling either into a wall, potentially off of the ramp, or into a person in another chair. It's a small drop but could still result in an injury or lawsuit. As Brad mentioned if that ramp or other aisles and means of egress are blocked you could be looking at fines if the right person walked in and saw it.

Again, plan for the worst. You may not use pyro or have an obvious danger of fire, but say there is a short and a plug melts or something catches a curtain that hasn't been flame retarded in years and something DOES cause a fire. Then you've got an overcrowded room full of panicky people, there may not even be a fire, a kid could pull a fire alarm and then you still have too many people in a panic, crushing and running over people. There are examples all over where things like this have happened and people have died. I would bet none of those places ever thought it could happen in their space either. 

This is something where an ADJ could walk in and shut things down completely if they wanted and then nobody is happy.


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## AlecIrwin (May 9, 2013)

I appreciate all the responses, and I think the point has been made. I had a discussion with the owner yesterday and we are going to take steps to make sure we have anticipated the worst in every case. Thank you again!

The building was definitely not designed as a gathering place, actually a converted warehouse with a list of other annoyances, like a 5' by 8' skylight directly above center stage that the owner does not want to cover up because she likes the natural light during the day.


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## BillConnerFASTC (May 9, 2013)

Well, when an owner changes "use", a building permit is usually required. I wonder if they just moved in and changed use from storage to assembly without a permit.


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## AlecIrwin (May 9, 2013)

Ok, so I talked with the owner more in detail, and although this seems to deviate from the original point of the thread it looks like some people are curious so I might as well explain.

The company I work for has been around for a while, but about 6 months ago moved from their old, very small facility into a large warehouse that will be converted into a theater over time. We have spoken to the fire-marshal in our area, in detail, and have a long list of safety requirements to meet, but are allowed to do so over time due to how much needs to be changed. I wasn't told a whole lot about the details of the meetings because it was information that didn't immediately effect me.

But yes, everything we are doing is legal!


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## marmer (Jul 8, 2013)

AlecIrwin said:


> Ok, so I talked with the owner more in detail, and although this seems to deviate from the original point of the thread it looks like some people are curious so I might as well explain.
> 
> The company I work for has been around for a while, but about 6 months ago moved from their old, very small facility into a large warehouse that will be converted into a theater over time. We have spoken to the fire-marshal in our area, in detail, and have a long list of safety requirements to meet, but are allowed to do so over time due to how much needs to be changed. I wasn't told a whole lot about the details of the meetings because it was information that didn't immediately effect me.
> 
> But yes, everything we are doing is legal!



I don't want to seem argumentative, but there are pretty specific code requirements about egress paths, aisle widths, blind aisles, and so on when loose chairs are used. Sometimes it's different if the chairs can be ganged together. We've actually spent some time on this with our campus safety office because we have a few flat-floor spaces we set up for performance. To be honest, if you don't know exactly what your legal occupancy is and have a plan for not exceeding it, you have a problem. If the performances are ticketed, it's easy. If they are free, have the ushers give out free tickets as audience members arrive and when you're out of tickets, you're full.


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## AlecIrwin (Jul 9, 2013)

You don't seem argumentative, but I promise you we are not breaking any rules. The show that happened several months ago, and caused me to write this post, was a surprise to all of the staff. We did not expect to be as full as we were. We are a relatively new company, in a new facility, so a contingency plan for an overstuffed house was not set. The "Mini-Musicals" are set to only run about 15 minutes, and only have one showing, so all the variables together caused us to not kick anyone out. For every show afterward, we have counted seats and only sold that many tickets. We have also ensured that we are at all times ADA compliant and have ample space for wheelchairs.

As for the maximum occupancy of the building, I still do believe the fire marshal is waiting for us to finish making our renovations to the facility. I am aware that generally the rules are very strict, but I know as a fact he has been checking up, and has not complained to us about anything yet. For example, we just added about 30 seats to our capacity from moving a temporary wall, and tend to move it further.

For every show, we put out chairs and ensure we have ample aisle space for everyone. After that, we count the chairs. We will sell no more than that many. There might be "specific" codes for this situation, but I am not accustomed to them. However, if safety is a question, I have worked with the theater management to ensure that in the event of an emergency everyone could be evacuated safely.


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## marmer (Jul 9, 2013)

AlecIrwin said:


> Often times, we will get 110 people to come and see shows in our theater that really should fit 60-70. The house is just a concrete floor with a handicap ramp to the stage, so most often I am asked to set up chairs all up the handicap ramp and in every nook and cranny I can find, which still leaves some people standing often.



Your original post made it seem like this was a common occurrence. As a general rule of thumb, with non-fixed chairs, you can divide your area square footage by seven to get a ballpark (not legally binding unless it comes from AHJ) idea of your capacity.


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## AlecIrwin (Jul 9, 2013)

It was a common occurrence as of 2 months ago, when we had just started running mini-musicals. It was definitely a problem then, but we are counting tickets now and making sure there is plenty of space.

Sorry, I wrote this post originally 2 months ago, since then we have had time to meet and make changes to our policies. I appreciate all of the help!!!


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