# Another stage floor thread



## BillConnerFASTC (Aug 31, 2018)

So the contractor offers a savings to stop stage floor at the edge of the "performance area" instead of all the way to walls, and not into the shell tower storage area. Anyone want to comment?


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## RonHebbard (Aug 31, 2018)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> So the contractor offers a savings to stop stage floor at the edge of the "performance area" instead of all the way to walls, and not into the shell tower storage area. Anyone want to comment?


 @BillConnerFASTC In what sense? Stop the surface, stop the sprung construction? Stop trappable construction? Stop in what sense? 
Toodleoo! 
Ron Hebbard


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## coldnorth57 (Aug 31, 2018)

In a venue that is over 50 years old the stage floor "performance area" was hard wood (Oak?) and the wings were a straight grain pine. some time in its life it was sanded and seal with varathane, which is is now all worn away. Then school district came up with the idea to resuface the floor, (tape was ripping up the pine and the hard wood was not doing much better) so they got a contractor to put down some form of exopy paint (was hi-gloss and then they put and low gloss clear coat on top) and now tape on the floor will pull up the paint and some wood. so 50 years ago we save all sorts of mony hahahahahah


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## Colin (Aug 31, 2018)

And what does it transition to past that edge? Something of the exact same density and texture and stability as the... plyron?.. on stage? What travels on stage also has to travel off, so I would want materials of identical performance throughout. I would be concerned with durability, and with wheels and feet crossing that transition and doing unexpected things. If someone works up too much speed rolling that shell off stage and runs over a transition to a slower surface then there's one of the more terrifying things I've seen come crashing down. What will happen when someone decides to save energy by shutting off the AC when the room is empty? Do you walk in the next week and find a big heave at the transition? How does the offstage surface handle tape?


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## BillConnerFASTC (Aug 31, 2018)

To clarify - built up resilient wood floor with plyron top to 30' or so off centerline, and concrete to wall at 43' off centerline - what could be some curtain settings be considered the "stage wing". (I don't believe in trying to break the entire stage area (code definition) into partslike wing, performance area, etc.) The slab in teh wood floro area would be depressed and the wings not - so nominally the surfaces are flush.

Also, I should have asked for comments from people who work in high schools, as this is for a high school. It's the contractors attitude of "we've done lots of high schools where the stage floor stops at the end of the masking" and I was looking for comments one way or the other.

Colin - obviously you have been backstage. Those are the views I'm am looking for.

I would love to hear from folks that work on stages where the stage floor does stop at the end of the masking and transitions to concrete, and how it works. I don't mind fighting the good fight but I do like to hear the views of the people who must deal with them on a daily basis. 

Thanks.


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## Stan Longhofer (Sep 1, 2018)

Our high school auditorium (11 years old) has a wood floor over the on-stage area which then transitions to concrete slab in the wings. There is a metal threshold over the joint. Other than the "bump" moving wagons over the threshold, the only problems we've had are (1) how to secure a fixed unit to the floor when it runs offstage and (2) a screw mysteriously disappearing from the threshold. Not big issues, really.


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## lwinters630 (Sep 1, 2018)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> To clarify - built up resilient wood floor with plyron top to 30' or so off centerline, and concrete to wall at 43' off centerline - what could be some curtain settings be considered the "stage wing". (I don't believe in trying to break the entire stage area (code definition) into partslike wing, performance area, etc.) The slab in teh wood floro area would be depressed and the wings not - so nominally the surfaces are flush.
> 
> Also, I should have asked for comments from people who work in high schools, as this is for a high school. It's the contractors attitude of "we've done lots of high schools where the stage floor stops at the end of the masking" and I was looking for comments one way or the other.
> 
> ...


One venue I am in the wood stage(sleepers on concrete with 3/4 ply and 1/4 5 ply birch) stopped at wings. butt almost flush to concrete. I used ardex feather finish to smooth it out about 2 ft off stage. It holds up well.

A different venue in a high school has 5/4 t&g spruce. It too was so old it was shreading. They had it sanded down, stained black, two coats basic coatings waterborn urethane semi gloss. Not my choice and bad idea!. Tape pulled up urethane. Then I made them resand it and put two coats of PPG V51-90/01. 

It has been patched with the ardex and repainted each fall. The tape and splintering has greatly been reduced.


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## venuetech (Sep 2, 2018)

One needs to smoothly roll wagons and other items from off stage storage positions into performance position.

is this really a significant cost savings? Though I would concider a concrete pad for a heavy shell storage zone.

As far as “performance area” I would consider that to be at least as wide as linesets.
Just off the top of my head that would be about 10% of my “stage”. I do have a transition to concrete, but that is to my loading dock and not under the fly tower. It is only slightly troublesome with the taller/heavier shell towers. 

A note on LWinters post
Years ago my hs drama coach said a spruce stage should never be sealed, that it should be oiled. He stated that nail holes and even damage from old style stage screws would close up on a well oiled floor. And that painting or sealing the floor would cause it to dry out and loose it’s abilty to self restore.


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## JJBerman (Sep 4, 2018)

2 high schools I have worked at, have transitions to concrete.
Both have transitions starting about 5 to 7 feet after the end of the lineset. So 60' lineset, 70-75' wood floor then concrete to wall edge.
Both have about 1/2" to 3/4" gap between where stage floor ends and concrete begins.

-The high school I work at the most, the transition is crap. and this is putting it lightly.
When installed, there was an aluminum cover to help transition from concrete to stage but as it got used, this cover became a safety issue with slivers and would also eat away at the bottom of everything(our shell walls have pads that level each wall, the pads would get caught on the cover and be ripped off.
A year ago, we ripped all the aluminum covers off and have had fewer problems, still many though.
When we ripped the covers off we found that the concrete and stage deck are at different levels. Rolling a platform from the scene shop onto stage is a 1/4-1/2" drop from concrete to stage(depending on where you transition US/DS), then again going from stage to concrete on opposite side of stage it can be a 1/4-1/2" drop, or 1/4"-1/2" bump(depending on where you transition US/DS), to get onto the concrete on flyrail side.
I pretty much hate this floor as it is also a blonde hard maple or oak floor for the first 10' US of plaster line, then the last 20' US is a black soft pine.
A couple years ago, this same high school caught national news because a basketball player got 'impaled' in the leg by a part of the basketball floor. The installer for the basketball floor was the same installer for the stage floor and the soft pine part of this stage floor has been ripping up with tape ever since the facility opened.

-A different high school I have started to help out at has soft pine the entire depth of the stage, however when the flooring was installed/concrete poured everything was kept level. There is at most a 1/8" transition height between stage and concrete.
Moving gear on/off this floor is a breeze and there are very few issues in that sense. Even moving the shell towers is easy.

In my opinion, having concrete 'wings' isn't the major issue. If you allow it or go down this route, make sure there is a clause requiring the transition be as smooth as possible in regards to height different.
An example with making sure the requirement is what you want it to be. I have a friend who works in IT. They contracted out a Cat 5 cable pull for 50 new lines. 
The contract stated that every cable had to be tested. The contractor did the work and all 50 cables were tested and failed. However legal said there was nothing that could be done because the contract said tested. It didn't say tested and PASSED.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Sep 4, 2018)

My concern with "smooth as possible" is the vacation between humid summer and dry winter.


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## Calc (Sep 4, 2018)

One of the local houses here has a concrete wing on the side leading to the dock. The wood extends 4-6ft past the offstage edges of the legs, so no chance the audience can see the concrete.

For the threshold, we've got a wider threshold plate between the two- it's at least 6-8 inches wide. Makes rolling the cases over it easier than a narrower plate would. 
We've never had problems with expansion/contraction, even though the room is only heated/cooled as needed.


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## venuetech (Sep 4, 2018)

venuetech said:


> A note on LWinters post
> Years ago my hs drama coach said a spruce stage should never be sealed, that it should be oiled. He stated that nail holes and even damage from old style stage screws would close up on a well oiled floor. And that painting or sealing the floor would cause it to dry out and loose it’s abilty to self restore.


Just a quick note that the age of pine/spruce floors has ended long ago. We do have to put up with those old installs but back in that day we did not have the heavy caster loads and high tack tape that are common now.

To me the transition plate to concrete must be able to withstand without distortion the repeated loads that the heavy shell puts on it. The wooden stage floor should have full support at that joint and added/supplemental support on common pathways to the storage area would be helpful.

One of the problems that I have is that when the shell is in it’s designed configuration it distorts the sprung floor.
This allows the tower to be slightly off plumb in its proper location. Not really noticeable to any one, but when the tower is 16’ tall any floor deflection can cause this issue. That deflection is also an issue at the transition as the shell weight depresses the floor such that it then needs to get pushed up hill to the transition. None of this is obvious to the casual observer, just the long term user.


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## macsound (Sep 6, 2018)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> My concern with "smooth as possible" is the vacation between humid summer and dry winter.


This has always been a big deal for Apple stores and the new Apple "spaceship" campus. Everything had to be executed within 1/16" of the drawn plans. This is a huge deal for contractor quotes because they all come in about 75% higher because of the precision work necessary.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Sep 6, 2018)

macsound said:


> This has always been a big deal for Apple stores and the new Apple "spaceship" campus. Everything had to be executed within 1/16" of the drawn plans. This is a huge deal for contractor quotes because they all come in about 75% higher because of the precision work necessary.



I don't feel sorry for Apple.


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## macsound (Sep 6, 2018)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> I don't feel sorry for Apple.


I mean now that they're one of the world's largest companies, of course not. 
FWIW, in 2001 when they opened their first store, they posted a net loss of $195M. But they still cared about how tightly their doors closed and how smooth the transition was from the Italian slate flooring to the commercial berber in the theater fitted with Eames Tandem Sling Seating.


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