# Attention Wholehog 2 owners:



## derekleffew (Aug 12, 2010)

Barco / High End Systems announced today that, effective yesterday, they are discontinuing repair service for Wholehog 2 consoles.

More at Discontinuation of Repair Service for Wholehog 2 Consoles - News - News & Events - High End Systems, including:

> However, to assist customers with upgrading their Wholehog 2 consoles, we have extended our console trade in program through August 31, 2010.


 and Console Trade in Program Announced - News - News & Events - High End Systems.

One wonders what they are going to do with the trade-ins, if not use them for parts to repair other consoles?


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## Footer (Aug 12, 2010)

derekleffew said:


> One wonders what they are going to do with the trade-ins, if not use them for parts to repair other consoles?


 



Something like that I assume. I have never seen or heard of a console trade in program like this. I really can not figure out why they are trying to get the console OFF the market. These things still sell used at 5 grand if they are in good shape. I still see shows coming in carrying this console. I can see them dropping support, but trying to get them off the market is a bit insane. In a world where ETC just bought a pallet of 3.5" floppies to support their legacy consoles the thought of the manufacture of the most popular lighting moving light desk ever dropping service on the console just a few years after the line was shut down is a bit disturbing. If Yamaha can keep the 4k going and midas can keep the XL4 going I think that High End/Barco should be able to keep this console going. Something to think about next time you are wanting to buy a console...


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## SteveB (Aug 12, 2010)

Boy, that would certainly make re-think the purchase of ANY Barco product !. 

I think perhaps that ETC has spoiled us into expecting what seems like liftetime service for ancient equipment and even if that's only partly true, at least you get the sense that they will not simply announce "Sorry, no longer servicing MicroVision", but instead wil do a case-by-case basis, parts dependent. I know that someday, even ETC will announce "Cannot service Express, due to most parts being out-of-stock".

Of course we ARE spoiled, and it's good luck getting service for Strand too, in many cases. 

SB


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## Footer (Aug 12, 2010)

SteveB said:


> Of course we ARE spoiled, and it's good luck getting service for Strand too, in many cases.
> 
> SB


I am sitting in a building right now with 70 strand/century 12k and 6k dimmers that are still in perfect working order and are still running on analog control cards. The system was installed the early 70's. They are served semi-annually. Parts have yet to become an issue.


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## JD (Aug 12, 2010)

Very disturbing. I would agree, this should cause great pause for anyone buying a new product from them. It is a mentality that infects manufacturers all the time. In my opinion, once infected, it is a terminal disorder. Here is why they do it- By closing support they achieve three things: 
1) reduced inventory cost. 
2) Forced upgrade at the first problem. 
3) Assured customer base. (As they are the only "trade in" port with their action destroying the value of the used product.)

In the short term, the policy works well. In the long run, once the public becomes aware, their potential new customer base is destroyed. Who wants to plop down $20,000 to a company that historically abandons their customers?

EDIT:Of course, this is the devil we invited in the door with digital. We love all the features, but once a key LSI chip is no longer produced, a failure instantly produced an expensive paperweight. As mentioned in a prior post, discreet component analog systems can be kept going forever. Of course, so could a manual adding machine if you had enough WD40! (But would you want to.....)


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## SteveB (Aug 12, 2010)

Footer said:


> I am sitting in a building right now with 70 strand/century 12k and 6k dimmers that are still in perfect working order and are still running on analog control cards. The system was installed the early 70's. They are served semi-annually. Parts have yet to become an issue.



All true, but if and when you need parts, you are not going back to the manufacturer - who is still in business, for them !.

And as a BTW, Steve Short at Litetrol has a room full of Strand 300 and 600 dimmers, should you ever need any

SB


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## derekleffew (Aug 12, 2010)

JD said:


> ...they achieve three things:
> 1) reduced inventory cost.
> 2) Forced upgrade at the first problem.
> 3) Assured customer base. (As they are the only "trade in" port with their action destroying the value of the used product.) ...


2) "Forced upgrade" to another manufacturer's product. Or use one of the many third-party repair options.
3) Sell the console on the used market, for likely more than the trade-in price, and purchase another manufacturer's product.


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## ruinexplorer (Aug 12, 2010)

I love how there was no notice. Kind of "oh, btw, you're out of luck starting today. Sucks to be you." 

As for the trade in; it sounded to me that they had hoped to get some consoles in so that they could continue repairing the old ones, but not enough people were willing to trade in, so they were forced to discontinue repair. I have had similar issues with Barco with their projector lines. One thing to consider is that some components simply would need to be redesigned since some manufacturing standards (specifically RoHS standards) have bound them to stock on hand. Secondly, as previously mentioned about the floppy drives, some parts are dependent on other manufacturers and our business is too small to justify the manufacture of legacy products.


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## mrb (Aug 12, 2010)

nice how theyre trying to drive sales by refusing to support the console you bought a couple years ago, the giving their customers 3 weeks to trade it in for a new console. imagine if auto manufacturers tried this...

i wonder if they will be taking down everything hog 2 off their website including the fixture library generator


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## Footer (Aug 12, 2010)

SteveB said:


> All true, but if and when you need parts, you are not going back to the manufacturer - who is still in business, for them !.
> 
> And as a BTW, Steve Short at Litetrol has a room full of Strand 300 and 600 dimmers, should you ever need any
> 
> SB



That is actually one of the issues I have with this program. One of the reasons the older dimmers are still around along with the older consoles was that there are many people that bought up over runs and other parts. Litetrol and lightbroker have warehouses of crap that will keep our old gear running for years ahead. I am hoping the litetrol convinces high end to sell him all of the used hog II's so he can part them out. 

The way it looks right now, HES has decided its time for the console to go away so they tried to snatch up as many as possible to shove in a back room. To further make the console go away, they are no longer servicing them. In order for you to get any money out of your console, you only have one option and that is to trade it in for a new one. If you decide to keep it beyond the end of this month, you run the risk of having a completly dead desk if one thing goes out (touchscreens anyone?). Because they are killing off support, you are stuck. It really does just boil down to what they are doing with the consoles they did get back. Then again, I bet that the number they got back was under a hundred. Hopefully the installed shows in Vegas and NYC that are running this console have several spares sitting in the wings.


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## SteveB (Aug 12, 2010)

Footer said:


> Hopefully the installed shows in Vegas and NYC that are running this console have several spares sitting in the wings.



You raise an issue I hadn't considered, namely about the 12 to 14 or so Broadway shows (guessing here) running OB II's alongside a WHII on a Midi link. What are the show electricians as well as the shops thinking now about Barco's decision ?. 

Trade up to a WH III isn't likely as the trend is to single console - either GrandMA, Hog III (nowhere near as common), Eos or Strand (again, not as common), and for single console application Eos is seemingly the console to go to, with GrandMA right behind (on Broadway). In any case, it means a week in tech to port over/ re-cue the ML's. I'll bet THAT's going to please the producers !.

Derek can comment on the LV scene, but I'll bet it's a similar situation. 

As to the issue of all those so-called trade-in WHII's coming back to the factory to be used as spares ?, I'd bet it's not that many, as I doubt there was anywhere near the kind of sales of the WHII as compared to the Expression (2,000 ?), thus there may not be that many in the Barco repair facility to scavange for parts. I assume they just want to move new gear and to not have to deal with the II. 

Who knows, someday we'll be talking about High End in the same thread as Kliegl, Skirpan, EDI......

SB


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## derekleffew (Aug 12, 2010)

SteveB said:


> ...Who knows, someday we'll be talking about High End in the same thread as Kliegl, Skirpan, *EDI*......


Whoa there. www<dot>edionline<dot>com. Yes, it says Zero 88, but EDI is still around.


SteveB said:


> ...Derek can comment on the LV scene, but I'll bet it's a similar situation. ...


Actually, Broadway shows are in a better position than Las Vegas. If a rented Broadway console goes down, they just call the shop (PRG, Hudson/Christie, Scharff Weisberg, _et al_) and demand another one.

Of the Las Vegas shows that I know which are still using HogIIs (and I can only think of a few), all already own multiple consoles. There's too much money at stake (1500 seats at $100/each times 2 shows/night = $300,000 per day) to NOT have a backup at the ready.


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## soundman (Aug 13, 2010)

I guess if it were my butt on the line and I thought I was going to have issues with a show that had been programed on a Hog II I would get a Hog II PC set up. The widgets, programmer, and playback wings are all compatible with Hog 2 pc OS. Midi can be brought in through windows. Not the perfect answer but for a show file that won't change again I don't see much of an issue. 

Coming into programing when the Hog III was the new kid on the block it seems that perhaps some of this reaction is that older programmers see their youth going away. I have a PIII Toshiba laptop kicking around somewhere. I don't imagine I could find any parts for it. High End has supported it for 16 years. Is anyone still typing on a PII computer? How about windows 95? Play games on an nintendo 64 recently? It is great that they kept it going for so long but at some point they need to look forward and stop looking at the past. I would be happy if the money spent keeping old Hog IIs gets shifted into hog III software development. 

Perhaps its a generational thing, being younger I guess I see electronics as almost expendable. A new laptop every two years, a desktop every five, newer, faster, better.


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## Footer (Aug 13, 2010)

soundman said:


> I would be happy if the money spent keeping old Hog IIs gets shifted into hog III software development.
> 
> Perhaps its a generational thing, being younger I guess I see electronics as almost expendable. A new laptop every two years, a desktop every five, newer, faster, better.


 
There is a difference between a 200 dollar cell phone and a console that costs as much as a mid-sized car. You expect that 10 years after you buy your toyota that you will still be able to get parts for it. The manufacturing cost of a HogII was probably around a grand or two in parts/machinery/labor. You are really paying for the R&D that went into the console and the support for that console down the line. These consoles were still on sale 4 years ago.

There really are just some things that a HogII does better then the newer consoles. Even though its old, it is freakishly stable. Many people still won't touch a III because they got burned by them in the past. Really, the HogII is to moving lights what the express(ion) is to conventionals. Both do their job really well. Yes, the interface has improved with HogIII but if you need to control a standard 120k rig with a dozen movers, some lekos, and a few moles, it will do the job just as well as anything else. Just don't forget your 2x4 to prop the thing up with.


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## SteveB (Aug 13, 2010)

Footer said:


> Really, the HogII is to moving lights what the express(ion) is to conventionals. Both do their job really well. .



I have to wonder as to the rational behind Barco's decision and generally think it's a dumb move, but without knowing the real issues, namely just how difficult the repairs are as well as the availability of parts, I can somewhat understand the need to pull the plug. 

One thing that keeps being stated is the somewhat un-fair comparison to ETC and particularly the Expression line. I suspect that far fewer Hog II's were built as compared to Expression and that alone may well drive the need to yank support. 

As an end user I can say that the overwhelming reasons I buy ETC electronic gear is the reliability, the effort made by the technical team to fix problems, the phone support and the long term support for the products. Often times the ETC product may not be the best choice for particular situations and certainly ETC has found competition from MA, HES/Barco as well as others, but for many, if not most users, the support for the product long term drives the decision. Barco just took a huge negative hit to their reputation for long term commitment to their products with this decision.

SB


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## derekleffew (Aug 13, 2010)

mrb said:


> ...i wonder if they will be taking down everything hog 2 off their website including the fixture library generator


Good question, mrb, and something I again thought of when composing a reply to http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/lighting/20882-profiles-personalites-libraries.html#post188742. 

In many ways, HES accelerated the extinction of the HogII by stopping new fixture library updates on July 1, 2007. But at least they provided an alternative, Wholehog II Library Disk Generator - Wholehog 2 - Training - Support - High End Systemshttp://www.flyingpig.com/hog2libgen/; knowing that if they didn't someone else would. There's also Denis' hog2 library generator. I would hope the Barco/HES controls division would not be so stupid as to further alienate the few remaining customers it has by removing "everything Hog2" from all of its sites.


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## JD (Aug 13, 2010)

What I am wondering about is if there is cross compatibilities in the profile files across the line. If not, then if the source files are text, how close are they. As a code writer, I find that companies often stick pretty close on formats across their product lines.


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## soundman (Aug 13, 2010)

Footer said:


> There is a difference between a 200 dollar cell phone and a console that costs as much as a mid-sized car. You expect that 10 years after you buy your toyota that you will still be able to get parts for it. The manufacturing cost of a HogII was probably around a grand or two in parts/machinery/labor. You are really paying for the R&D that went into the console and the support for that console down the line.....
> 
> .....Yes, the interface has improved with HogIII but if you need to control a standard 120k rig with a dozen movers, some lekos, and a few moles, it will do the job just as well as anything else. Just don't forget your 2x4 to prop the thing up with.



At a certain point pumping money into that old Toyota will not be cost effective. Yes it seems that High End/Barco has made that decision for owners instead of letting them handle it but they have costs associated with keeping an inventory of old parts and staff trained on legacy product repair. It seems that they are not killing the Hog II but rather letting it die. Other people will still be glad to service and repair them. Perhaps they could make it an open source project by releasing the code and schematics. 

As technology has moved forward the 120K rig has changed as well. Now its a 120K plus movers, now it will be a 120K plus movers and LEDs. A Hog II can handle LEDs but it has a lag with high channel count. 

Of course Barco is trying to push people to a newer console, that is where there money is. It is more common than one might think, I believe that Martin has stopped making MCB's for the 1st generation of 2Ks. Talk about leaving people high and dry.....


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## Anvilx (Aug 13, 2010)

Some one will make a killing on suport and repairs I can guarantee it. As long as it is cheaper to repair then buy a new one and at the price point of a new one it, well yeah...

Sent from my HTC Liberty


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## derekleffew (Aug 13, 2010)

Yes, it's slightly odd that some are making such a fuss over this. By many accounts, LightParts has always offered better service and prices than the factory. Still, it's distasteful when a manufacturer makes the difficult decision to stop supporting any of its products.


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## DuckJordan (Aug 13, 2010)

Derek i think the whole issue with the wholehog 2 going is the fact they gave 3 weeks to anyone with the product to send it in and get credit for it. The fact that they also didn't warn people in this economic standpoint is what is really the issue. Now if they had done a few press releases saying sometime in the near future they will be cutting that product it would be a different story. They are basicly screwing it to the smaller companies who own a wholehog 2 but can't afford to get their "newest and greatest" console. To me this says two things. One, That they are trying to say that they are wanting to only support the newest and greatest product they have (much like a company who shares a name with a fruit), and two, that they are only wanting consumers who can afford a new console in a month.


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## photoatdv (Aug 14, 2010)

Schematics for the hog 2 are around. I'm sure all the major players in hog 2 repair have them. If anyone needs them PM me and I can email it to you.

Now if they'd make repair manuals and the like available that'd really be useful. Speaking from experience the hog 2 schematics are more confusing than the boards ;-/.


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## Anvilx (Aug 14, 2010)

DuckJordan said:


> One, That they are trying to say that they are wanting to only support the newest and greatest product they have (much like a company who shares a name with a fruit)


 
My thought exactly. We really will need to start worrying when they turn out an iHog...


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## derekleffew (Aug 14, 2010)

When does support for XP cease, again? I can't list the number of printers that I've known that had to be abandoned because the manufacturer refused to create and supply drivers for the most recent OS.


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## MNicolai (Aug 14, 2010)

derekleffew said:


> When does support for XP cease, again? I can't list the number of printers that I've known that had to be abandoned because the manufacturer refused to create and supply drivers for the most recent OS.


 
Support for XP has only ended for installs that are Pre-SP3. All Service Pack 3, plus 64-bit Service Pack 2 installs will receive updates until April 8, 2014. This does not include free technical support.


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## Footer (Aug 14, 2010)

derekleffew said:


> When does support for XP cease, again?


 
2014, 13 years after release and 6 years after the final service pack for the OS.


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## Chris15 (Aug 25, 2010)

It is interesting to contrast this with Yamaha with the PM1D. It was discontinued last year on it's 10th birthday. Yamaha did it becuase they can't get some critical components any more and they want to have sufficient stock to be able to continue to support it for ~10 years. But everyone knows what the status is now, which seems to be the biggest issue with the Hog II...


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