# ETC EOS Admin Account



## Rose03 (Nov 3, 2018)

I noticed the other day that there was a second account called admin on my ion. The account has a password on it and etc would not tell me what it is. Does anyone know what it may be?


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## RickR (Nov 3, 2018)

I think that's the account used to install and set up the desk.


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## Rose03 (Nov 4, 2018)

RickR said:


> I think that's the account used to install and set up the desk.


Is it possible to access it? I was told by etc it was "the no man's land" that would allow me to access the full os.


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## SteveB (Nov 4, 2018)

Rose03 said:


> Is it possible to access it? I was told by etc it was "the no man's land" that would allow me to access the full os.



Sounds like a good reason to stay out.

What are you attempting to adjust/fix/change by gaining access to an area of the OS that ETC would prefer the customers not have access to ?


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## Rose03 (Nov 4, 2018)

SteveB said:


> Sounds like a good reason to stay out.
> 
> What are you attempting to adjust/fix/change by gaining access to an area of the OS that ETC would prefer the customers not have access to ?


I was just curious, I din't plan on changing anything, just looking around. Sort of like climbing to the top of a tall mountain. No real point to it except you get to say you saw it.


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## ScottT (Nov 4, 2018)

It’s not useful unless you are directed there by tech services.

Stay out!


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## notoriousRBG (Nov 4, 2018)

It's not useful... however the login is something simple like admin---eos, or something like that.

It lets you access the windows OS powering Eos, and lets you run the console like a normal windows 7 computer.


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## starksk (Nov 4, 2018)

Rose03 said:


> I was just curious, I din't plan on changing anything, just looking around. Sort of like climbing to the top of a tall mountain. No real point to it except you get to say you saw it.


As others have said, this area is there for the extremely rare instances that ETC Technical Support needs to help walk you through some arcane maintenance task.
If you have ever used a normal Windows computer, you have already climbed an even taller, more complex, much more interesting mountain. The embedded version of Windows used on the consoles is a very stripped down version of what you’d see on your laptop. We have just taken the steps to fine tune the OS to ensure optimal console performance.

So, now for the strong warnings:
If you do happen to access this area and make any changes that negatively affects your console’s performance, those changes can’t be supported by Tech Services. This means that Tech Support will not be able to assist you with the negative impacts until your console is restored to the factory state.
If you make changes that happen to work now but don’t work after a future update, again ETC cannot support or maintain those unsupported changes.

It’s a lot like jailbreaking your iPhone, if something goes wrong, you are on your own. And like Apple, ETC’s advice is: “Don’t do it!”


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## ScottT (Nov 4, 2018)

starksk said:


> It’s a lot like jailbreaking your iPhone, if something goes wrong, you are on your own. And like Apple, ETC’s advice is: “Don’t do it!”



Except your iPhone isn’t a show critical device.


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## SteveB (Nov 4, 2018)

ScottT said:


> Except your iPhone isn’t a show critical device.



And an Ion is $8,000, not likely actually owned by Rose and I’d doubt whatever facility owns the Ion would want it bricked.


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## techieman33 (Nov 4, 2018)

It may be like jailbreaking your phone in that ETC won't offer support. But you won't brick your console just by playing around in windows embedded. Worst case scenario you have to load a clean version of the OS back onto the console.


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## SteveB (Nov 4, 2018)

techieman33 said:


> It may be like jailbreaking your phone in that ETC won't offer support. But you won't brick your console just by playing around in windows embedded. Worst case scenario you have to load a clean version of the OS back onto the console.



If you find yourself needing ETC help to re-load the OS, it’s beceause you mucked around in the shell and bricked the console.


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## techieman33 (Nov 4, 2018)

SteveB said:


> If you find yourself needing ETC help to re-load the OS, it’s beceause you mucked around in the shell and bricked the console.



Bricking a device means doing something that renders it unrecoverable. Making it as useful as a brick. Doing actual damage that requires changing out hardware to get the device running again. This happens on hardware when your trying to update its firmware. That's not something that you just do accidentally. If your just playing around with settings or deleting files in the OS your not going to damage the hardware. Worst case scenario and you do something you shouldn't have all that will happen is you'll lose anything you haven't backed up. Reload the OS and you'll be good as new. 

I'm not suggesting that people should go in there and mess with things. And for sure it's not something you should be doing during a show run. Just pointing out that the world isn't going to come to and end if you do.


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## SteveB (Nov 5, 2018)

As a purely semantic argument, some definitions define hardware damage. Others, such as WiKi " severe physical damage, a serious misconfiguration, corrupted firmware, or a hardware problem". Thus messing with the primary OS in such a way as to render the desk inoperable, can be considered as turning it into a brick. Just sayin'.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Nov 5, 2018)

I tend to think if its recoverable - even having to install a new operating system - it isn't bricked - which seems to be the consensus but not overwhelming so. I thought the line "“Bricking” generally means that a device isn’t recoverable through normal means and can’t be fixed, but some people may say a device is “bricked” even when it’s recoverable." from this article https://www.howtogeek.com/126665/htg-explains-what-does-bricking-a-device-mean/ was pretty accurate.


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## tyler.martin (Nov 6, 2018)

techieman33 said:


> It may be like jailbreaking your phone in that ETC won't offer support. But you won't brick your console just by playing around in windows embedded. Worst case scenario you have to load a clean version of the OS back onto the console.



I've actually had to re-image a console for a local theatre after someone decided to try and install drivers for an unsupported device. Console started BSOD'ing immediately. 

I'd consider a device "bricked" if it requires a trip to the Factory or to a service provider.


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## Jekyll (Nov 7, 2018)

techieman33 said:


> If your just playing around with settings or deleting files in the OS your not going to damage the hardware. Worst case scenario and you do something you shouldn't have all that will happen is you'll lose anything you haven't backed up. Reload the OS and you'll be good as new.



Just want to clarify that if you should "brick" or make your console's OS stop working properly (whichever you choose to call it), ETC will NOT send you the OS to re-install. You will have to take the console to a certified ETC rep or send it back to the factory to have it restored. A saying I heard as a child..."Curiosity killed the cat!" - so in this circumstance...DO NOT touch your OS. It works just fine as it is. If you really want to play around with Windows on an Ion/Eos system...do it to your own home computer with Nomad installed.


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## Jeph H (Nov 7, 2018)

I have an original Element that hasn't been updated in years, and if you mashed shift on the external keyboard, it would throw up the sticky keys window, allowing you into the windows OS behind it. You should have seen the confused looks on some of the new light tech's faces when the console blasted out a Windows 7 message!

And I'd agree. Don't mess with it unless you have to.


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## techieman33 (Nov 7, 2018)

Jekyll said:


> Just want to clarify that if you should "brick" or make your console's OS stop working properly (whichever you choose to call it), ETC will NOT send you the OS to re-install. You will have to take the console to a certified ETC rep or send it back to the factory to have it restored. A saying I heard as a child..."Curiosity killed the cat!" - so in this circumstance...DO NOT touch your OS. It works just fine as it is. If you really want to play around with Windows on an Ion/Eos system...do it to your own home computer with Nomad installed.



That's unacceptable IMO. That software should be available on their website to download by anyone who needs it. What are you supposed to do if your hard drive craps out? Most of us don't have backup consoles just waiting to go. I would need to swap hard drives and get the OS onto the new drive ASAP. Very few people can afford to lose their console for a week or more, especially for something as simple as that.


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## SteveB (Nov 7, 2018)

techieman33 said:


> That's unacceptable IMO. That software should be available on their website to download by anyone who needs it. What are you supposed to do if your hard drive craps out? Most of us don't have backup consoles just waiting to go. I would need to swap hard drives and get the OS onto the new drive ASAP. Very few people can afford to lose their console for a week or more, especially for something as simple as that.



Curious as to what other manufacturers have the desk OS available on the website as a download ?

The company has the right to retain control over who has access and how the end user uses the software, to a certain extent. Nobody doubts that should your HD fail that ETC tech support is going all out to get your console up and running ASAP, that’s been documented over the years by the countless thank-you’s I’ve read from folks in that situation. If you bricked the OS on your Honda Civic, are you able to go to the Honda website and download a clean OS for user install ?. I don’t think so, that’s going to be a huge bill from the dealer. 

A user accessing the Admin level of OS when ETC specifically doesn’t release that password, is asking for trouble.


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## josh88 (Nov 7, 2018)

techieman33 said:


> That's unacceptable IMO. That software should be available on their website to download by anyone who needs it. What are you supposed to do if your hard drive craps out?



That is pretty standard for this kind of stuff. If your hard drive on a console craps out would you have the know how to actually change it without it going in for a service call somewhere anyway? Just playing devils advocate, because its jumping from messing up software to opening up a console and potentially screwing up hardware inside. If you aren't a certified etc service person they won't like you doing that either.


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## danTt (Nov 7, 2018)

SteveB said:


> Curious as to what other manufacturers have the desk OS available on the website as a download ?
> 
> The company has the right to retain control over who has access and how the end user uses the software, to a certain extent. Nobody doubts that should your HD fail that ETC tech support is going all out to get your console up and running ASAP, that’s been documented over the years by the countless thank-you’s I’ve read from folks in that situation. If you bricked the OS on your Honda Civic, are you able to go to the Honda website and download a clean OS for user install ?. I don’t think so, that’s going to be a huge bill from the dealer.
> 
> A user accessing the Admin level of OS when ETC specifically doesn’t release that password, is asking for trouble.


MA offers a full image as a download option.

That being said, I will say that ETC does provide reimaging kits in some circumstances. I wouldn't take this as permission to mess around on the system, but just to counter the arguments that reimaging requires bringing the console to a local service providers. 

The biggest reason not to mess around/login is admin on a console is that there's really not much worth doing if you do so. The OS is super stripped down and there's not really anything useful once you get there. If for whatever reason you decide you want to get creative/play around, I'd recommend using industry standard disk imaging tools to make yourself a clone/image/backup of the drive before you go adventuring, so that if you do manage to break things in new and interesting ways you have a good known state to restore to.


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## techieman33 (Nov 7, 2018)

SteveB said:


> Curious as to what other manufacturers have the desk OS available on the website as a download ?
> 
> The company has the right to retain control over who has access and how the end user uses the software, to a certain extent. Nobody doubts that should your HD fail that ETC tech support is going all out to get your console up and running ASAP, that’s been documented over the years by the countless thank-you’s I’ve read from folks in that situation. If you bricked the OS on your Honda Civic, are you able to go to the Honda website and download a clean OS for user install ?. I don’t think so, that’s going to be a huge bill from the dealer.
> 
> A user accessing the Admin level of OS when ETC specifically doesn’t release that password, is asking for trouble.



Completely different things. To program a cars computer you need specialized equipment. A modern lighting console is basically just a standard pc in a special case and some custom peripherals. And I would guess that most of us have or could build a computer. Again I'm not suggesting anyone go in and mess with setting they shouldn't be. But stuff happens. Could be a student, employee, or volunteer just being curious and looking around. And if the password really is a simple as was posted earlier in this thread then I wouldn't put it past some bored person to try a couple passwords like that. 


josh88 said:


> That is pretty standard for this kind of stuff. If your hard drive on a console craps out would you have the know how to actually change it without it going in for a service call somewhere anyway? Just playing devils advocate, because its jumping from messing up software to opening up a console and potentially screwing up hardware inside. If you aren't a certified etc service person they won't like you doing that either.



I absolutely would. We've had our AVO Pearl torn apart and put it back together with newer hardware. It's been upgraded twice now. Instead of buying a new desk you can buy an upgrade kit from them that will bring your old console up to current standards. The first upgrade got us off the old AVO classic software and running Titan. And this last one included much more powerful hardware to run the built in visualizer. You can pay a dealer to install it, or they'll send you the parts with a well done instruction manual. And should the hard drive fail I can go to their website, login and download the full OS. You submit some pictures and such to prove that you are actually in possession of the console and they'll let you download the file right away. It's only activated for two weeks, and during that time someone will verify that you actually do have the console, it's not listed as stolen, etc. Once they've done that they'll send you a permanent activation key. As far as warranty goes, that's only good for a couple of years. And if it's a matter of having my console to use that night or not, then I don't really care if they're happy or not that I opened it up. Are you not allowed to open them and clean them either? I'm not at all a fan of way things seem to be headed in that direction for everything. If it's my hardware I should be allowed to do whatever I want with it.


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## danTt (Nov 7, 2018)

josh88 said:


> That is pretty standard for this kind of stuff. If your hard drive on a console craps out would you have the know how to actually change it without it going in for a service call somewhere anyway? Just playing devils advocate, because its jumping from messing up software to opening up a console and potentially screwing up hardware inside. If you aren't a certified etc service person they won't like you doing that either.



ETC publishes youtube videos on how to open up your ion and reseat hardware. They "protect" the original eos hardware with a grand total of two flathead screws. There's nothing very magical once you're inside. Replacing a hard drive in a PC is not an esoteric skill that should require third party involvement, they are moving parts and they die.


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## josh88 (Nov 7, 2018)

danTt said:


> ETC publishes youtube videos on how to open up your ion and reseat hardware. They "protect" the original eos hardware with a grand total of two flathead screws. There's nothing very magical once you're inside. Replacing a hard drive in a PC is not an esoteric skill that should require third party involvement, they are moving parts and they die.


I have no problem with doing any of that (and a good portion of us around here probably wouldn't have an issue) But I do know people who have wrecked a computer or console because they thought they had a clue, tore into it and then had to replace it after they couldn't put it back together. For someone who's built a computer its not esoteric but there are still too many people that think it runs on hamster wheels, thats why a lot of companies would prefer that type of user to stay away from it.


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## starksk (Nov 8, 2018)

My what a spirited discussion this has become. I just want to clear up a few potential misunderstandings as the discussion continues.


techieman33 said:


> ... A modern lighting console is basically just a standard pc in a special case and some custom peripherals. And I would guess that most of us have or could build a computer. Again I'm not suggesting anyone go in and mess with setting they shouldn't be. But stuff happens. ...




SteveB said:


> ... Nobody doubts that should your HD fail that ETC tech support is going all out to get your console up and running ASAP, that’s been documented over the years by the countless thank-you’s I’ve read from folks in that situation. ...


This is true, if you suffer a hardware failure due to no fault of your own, ETC is going to do what we can to get you going again as fast as we can. Sometimes that is a re-image kit, sometimes that is a loaner to use while your console is in for repair. 
If you do cause the hardware to fail, we'll still do our best to help you out of the jam that you are in, but of course it certainly wouldn't be covered under warranty and there may be some cost associated.


techieman33 said:


> Could be a student, employee, or volunteer just being curious and looking around. ... I wouldn't put it past some bored person....




SteveB said:


> A user accessing the Admin level of OS when ETC specifically doesn’t release that password, is asking for trouble.


Steve is right. I can count on one hand the number of support calls in the last 10 years that I've needed to use the administrative area to solve a problem and none of those were short calls. The most common cause of trouble in that area however is boredom.


techieman33 said:


> ...
> I absolutely would. ... As far as warranty goes, that's only good for a couple of years. And if it's a matter of having my console to use that night or not, then I don't really care if they're happy or not that I opened it up. Are you not allowed to open them and clean them either?


You are absolutely able to open them, clean them, and perform regular maintenance on the hardware. In fact, we encourage it. See:

danTt said:


> ETC publishes youtube videos on how to open up your ion and reseat hardware. They "protect" the original eos hardware with a grand total of two flathead screws. There's nothing very magical once you're inside. ...




techieman33 said:


> ...
> I'm not at all a fan of way things seem to be headed in that direction for everything. If it's my hardware I should be allowed to do whatever I want with it.



It should be noted that ETC is not stopping you from doing whatever you want with the hardware that you own. We just can't support changes made to the hardware that we haven't taken into account when designing the product. We take an unbelievably long amount of time to decide on which hardware components that are used in the consoles and we do so with serviceability and longevity in mind. The same goes for software. We spend a lot of time and money on software development and testing to try to make sure that the intended software functions work as expected.

As I said before, if you make changes, you are essentially "jailbreaking" your console. Your console's hardware and software are like an ecosystem that has been balanced for optimal lighting control The changes you make may work or they may cause it to fail spectacularly, but because you have decided to make changes that are unsupported, you are responsible for taking the corrective action required when those changes have unintended consequences. Depending on the severity of the change, sometimes the corrective action will require purchasing the tools and/or services needed to restore the ecosystem. And, often, the biggest cost is time.

A final note on hardware replacement:
When it comes to replacing a drive, we encourage you to order the replacement from ETC (through your ETC Dealer) or send in the console for repair, not because it isn't something that an end-user couldn't do, but because (as we have painfully discovered) drive quality is a fickle thing and we want to ensure that the physical hardware is going to last.


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## techieman33 (Nov 8, 2018)

starksk said:


> My what a spirited discussion this has become. I just want to clear up a few potential misunderstandings as the discussion continues.
> 
> 
> This is true, if you suffer a hardware failure due to no fault of your own, ETC is going to do what we can to get you going again as fast as we can. Sometimes that is a re-image kit, sometimes that is a loaner to use while your console is in for repair.
> ...



Those sound like perfectly reasonable policies to me. Thanks for the info straight from the source.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Nov 8, 2018)

I cant hep but wonder if ip and agreements with Microsoft dont play into careful control of reimaging kits, whats available on line, etc.


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## cbrandt (Nov 8, 2018)

ETC is an outlier for disk images. I ship all my consoles with a full disk image in case of extreme or catastrophic failure. This is a bit of an old attitude. I don't think a single one of those has been used on gig in at least 5 years, but it makes programmers a lot more comfortable knowing that it is there. I can't do this with my ETC consoles. As previously stated, that hasn't happened in a long time, and never with the EOS/ION software. It does stick in my craw that I have to treat those boards differently however. Every manufacturer has their own software and OS protections and agreements in place, so we have to play by those rules.


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## Jay Ashworth (Nov 10, 2018)

ScottT said:


> Except your iPhone isn’t a show critical device.


Ha ha... that's funny.


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