# Winches & Cables or Hydraulic Lifts



## Terrence MacArthur (Mar 11, 2015)

If you want to raise and lower a 16x4 platform about 8 feet, with an actor standing still in the middle of it, and if the circumstances would probably allow you to use either winches or hydraulic lifts, which would be better, from both a safety and a cost perspective?

With winches & cables it'd take either getting heavy stuff up on the grid (not very realistic) or running wire rope up the upstage wall, across the grid, and back down to the platform. I don't like that because it creates too many potential failure points.

So I'm thinlkng hydraulic lifts, mechanisms hidden in the stairways, platform brought in from above using the fly system. But I don't see a quick and safe way to attach the platform to (and afterwards detach it from) the lifts hidden in the stairs. Anybody know how to do that?

I'm attaching a NOT to scale sketch. The stairs on either end come in from the wings. The platform would be built on a steel frame, and could incorporate whatever might be needed to allow a quick connection to the lifts.


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## MikeJ (Mar 11, 2015)

I'm not sure I am getting the whole picture here. The platform starts at stage level, then magically stairs with lifts fly in attach to the platform, and then it rises up 8', at some point, comes back down, and then must disconnect from the lifting mechanism? 

Can you give a more clear and detailed explanation, of the platform, stairs, and the sequence of events that needs to happen?


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## rochem (Mar 11, 2015)

Agreed, there's not enough information here. I wrote out a whole response assuming that the platform only traveled between 0' (deck level) and +8', in which case a hydraulic lift would probably be better. But then I reread and it sounds like you need it to be flown out of sight lines, then come in, and at some point someone stands on it, perhaps while it is moving? Is this for an actual production, or is this more of an educational / hypothetical question.


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## MNicolai (Mar 11, 2015)

It sounds like what you want to do is to have a 16x4 platform appear on stage, possibly flown in, and then from either side have a set of stairs connect to the platform, hook into it as a forklift would slide into a skid, and then from either side have the lifts in the step units elevate the platform to +8' AFF.

My inclination is to say: That sounds like a lot of work for not a lot of effect, and the effect that you would get would be visually clunky and obviously gimmicky. Seeing the step units in the middle of the stage with a dead space in between that begins to lift up -- it seems awkward in a way that would probably distract me from the show thinking about how they did it more than draw me into the story. Maybe it's a fast-paced rock opera and the show's paced so quickly nobody will have time to think about it, but for most scripts I see the effect just looking out of place.

I could be mistaken with that and have myself gone to some absurd lengths to attain the perfect effect. Sometimes these things end up just being a rabbit hole though down which someone must go in order to entertain a director who is obsessed with believing they must literally show something on stage that would look far more effective if implied and left to the imagination.


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## Footer (Mar 12, 2015)

Go hydraulic, build basically two forklifts like @MNicolai said. Lifts would just need to be two ledges. When the platform flys in you would need some sort of machined connection mechanism that also centers the deck on the locks. When it full landed it would need to lock in with solenoids. Give Tait a call. I'm sure they could get it going for you for around a 100k. The real trick will come if you don't have a trap and can't bury the hydraulics into the deck. Best would be if the automation could be buried in the deck and totally independent of the stairs. At that point you might as well just automate the whole thing with proper winches and you can do whatever you want. If you don't mind not having an air space underneath you could also get a scissor deck and land the deck on that. You also still have the issue on how do you fly an 4' deep deck safely. Even if you do do it just on winches I would still want to see some kind of hard contact with the stairs that tracks just for stabilization. 







....Please let this one go. I know you want to do it. There are companies out there that can do it. Tait, ZFX, Creative Connors, Hudson Scenic, and a long list of other companies have the gear to do this safely.


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## GreyWyvern (Mar 12, 2015)

This seems awfully familiar.... 
http://www.controlbooth.com/threads...hat-can-be-released-and-locked-quickly.37340/


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## BillConnerFASTC (Mar 12, 2015)

I tend to agree the effect seems clunky but building all as a wagon unit with stairs connected - maybe two "beams" that the moving deck sits between, guide rails on stairs and shoes on deck, and all of the winch rigging built into this unit. I can't imagine lower cost. (Rented scissor lift in trap room would be less expensive probably - but then you would not have winch in stock.)

Might look at linear actuators and mulit purchase lift lines rather than drum and motor as the actuators tend to fail safe. Could be mounted horizontally in deck even if below deck.

Speed is critical factor and faster equals more expensive.

This unit approach dies allow easier building and testing off site, which might be an advantage.


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## DRU (Mar 12, 2015)

@Terrence MacArthur, is this the correct sequence of events for your scene in question? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Stairs each enter from SL and SR and are put on spikes
Platform descends from fly system and lands +8' between the two stairs
Some form of lifting mechanism is attached to the platform.
An actor enters and ascends the stairs and walks onto the platform at +8'.
The lifting mechanism lowers the actor on the platform from +8' to the deck.
Actor walks off platform and does his actor thing.
Actor returns to platform on deck
Platform with actor is raised to +8' off deck
Actor walks off platform and descends stairs
Lifting mechanism is removed from the platform
Platform flies out.
Stairs are struck.
My first question is: is there any reason why the platform has to fly out? Can it be stored backstage? If so, you can build a scissor lift into the platform, roll it out, and raise and lower to your heart's desire. Is the visual of the platform flying part of the scene?

Also, what is the budget for this effect? If it is theoretical with a $1million budget, then that's one thing, and with a $10,000 budget it is another.

EDIT: Also, what show is this for? Or is it a concert?


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## Terrence MacArthur (Mar 14, 2015)

OK, some more info. First, not really going to do it. It's a kind of theoretical thing. it was done in a production of Sound of Music, the guy that did it bet me I couldn't find out how to do it. Here's the scene: (all movement of stuff will be concealed from the audience). Stagehands bring in stairways from wings, platform flys in, stairs and platform become a bridge over a stream. When it becomes visible to the audience, an actor (figure he's 200 lbs.) enters, ascends stair (doesn't much matter whether it's the stage left or right stairway), moves to center of platform, stays there unmoving while platform is lowered to stage, steps off, moves a few feet downstage, does a number, returns to middle of platform, it's raised back up, he steps off and down the stair, the whole thing gets concealed again, platform flys back out, stairs are moved back to the wings. 

He mentioned that the lineset is weighted for the platform, and there's a weight transfer somewhere. So I'm thinking lifts concealed in the stairways, stagehands somehow attach the platform to the lifts, then detach it at the end so it can fly back out. As to budget, all he said was i can assume there's a budget for equipment, so I'm going to assume however much I need, but don't want to get crazy with like completely automated stuff from Foy or someone.


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## DRU (Mar 14, 2015)

I'm betting it was a carpet hoist system. (http://www.controlbooth.com/threads/qotd-carpet-hoist.19643/)

The lineset was weighted to be just the platform. Platform was brought in and the second arbor was standing by to be attached when the actor walked on. Both arbors brought the actor in, then were tied off for the duration of the scene. When the actor walked back on the platform, the arbors were untied and used to raise the platform and the actor to the top of the stairs. Second arbor was removed as the actor walked off, leaving the platform lineset in balance for it to fly out at the end of the scene.

DISCLAIMER: Flying a person in this manner is dangerous. Always consult with a professional for your flying-human needs.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Mar 14, 2015)

You don't have to connect and disconnect trailer arbor, just connect it with exact length of chain so it is taut when platform hits 8'.


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## Footer (Mar 14, 2015)

The only issue I have with the carpet arbor is you are still tying off something 200# out of weight.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Mar 14, 2015)

Yes, it needs a motor and proper design.


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## Terrence MacArthur (Apr 3, 2015)

OK, first off, this is something that isn't really going to happen. It's basically the result of a bet that I couldn't find out how to do something. And while I finally figured out 3 different ways to do it, all within today's kind of accepted safety parameters (they were way different 40 odd years ago), and for several reasons (including the number of potential point failure locations) settled on one specific way, I need to find some specifics about equipment.

First, being hypothetical, there's a hypothetically unlimited budget. Second, hiring a rigging company or getting a complete and totally automated system are out of bounds.

The task is to raise and lower an 18x4 foot platform between stage floor level and about 8 feet above, with a 200 pound actor standing on it. The platform is the deck of a footbridge, with a stairway on either end. The stairways live in the wings except for the particular scene. The platform is essentially 3/4 inch plywood, with an angle iron (actually aluminum, not steel) frame. It lives up above everything except during this scene, and, when not serving as part of the bridge, and without anyone or anything on it, is raised and lowered with the counterweight fly system.

The stairways are brought from either wingby stagehands, the platform is flown in to where it's level with the top stairs, and we have the footbridge. The actor comes on, goes up one of the stairways, goes to the center of the platform, it's lowered to the stage, he steps off, goes a bit downstage, does his thing, returns to the platform, it's raised up so it's the bridge's deck again, he walks to the stairway, goes down the stairs, end of scene. Stairways are returned to the wings, platform is flown up and out of sight.

I've decided on lifts concealed in the stairways to lower and raise the platform with the actor on it. BUT I have no idea what type of lifts are out there, let alone which ones to use, nor do I know, having never seen them, how to connect the platform to them after it's flown in, which could include incorporating something in the frame of the platform to allow a quick and secure connection as well as a quick disconnection when the whole thing's done. Anyone out there know just what lifts I need, and the best way to connect the platform to them? Remember, budget isn't a consideration, it's supposedly not a limitation.


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## Terrence MacArthur (Apr 3, 2015)

GreyWyvern said:


> This seems awfully familiar....
> http://www.controlbooth.com/threads...hat-can-be-released-and-locked-quickly.37340/



It is. I finally gave in to the reality that things that might have been OK 40 odd years age just aren't OK now. I also started looking at what's out there and available now instead of just what was mostly around in the early '70s. And by the way, I've finally settled on lifts concealed in the stairways, for several reasons, and stared a new thread to try to find some specific info about lifts that are available and how to do a quick and safe attach/detach to the platform, which would be 3/4 ply with an angle iron (aluminum) frame.


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## Footer (Apr 3, 2015)

I combined these two threads. Please stop making new threads on this subject.


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## Terrence MacArthur (Apr 7, 2015)

Footer said:


> I combined these two threads. Please stop making new threads on this subject.


OK, sorry 'bout that. Just seemed that the first one started off pretty vague and ina wrong direction, and now it's more specific.


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## Terrence MacArthur (Apr 7, 2015)

Where I'm at now with this thing is that I want to use some kind of AC motor lifting devices, one concealed in each stairway. I like hydraulics, but that would need too much extra stuff, electric motors would just need cords. So the fly system handles the platform when it's not being used, it flies in, is attached to the lifting devices, which handle it when the actor is on the thing. Problem is I have to get this thing written up in the next couple weeks, then give it to Bryce who will read it and tell me whether or not it'll work. And I kinda need to be specific about the equipment I'd want to use, and I'm woefully ignorant about what's even available today. Can ANYONE out there give me some info?


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## Terrence MacArthur (Apr 9, 2015)

DRU said:


> @Terrence MacArthur, is this the correct sequence of events for your scene in question? Please correct me if I'm wrong.
> 
> Stairs each enter from SL and SR and are put on spikes
> Platform descends from fly system and lands +8' between the two stairs
> ...



The platform going down then back up would be visible to the audience, so a scissor lift, probably the simplest way to do it, wouldn't be a great idea. A spot on only the actor and everything else dark MIGHT fix that, but I don't think so, and, anyway, the deal is the whole stage needs to be lit once the curtain opens and the audience sees the bridge, THEN the actor comes in from the wing, and stays lit, except it dims down some when he's actually singing (he gets the spot during the song). and as he walks back to the "bridge, the lights come back up. So the stage is fully lit while the thing moves down and up, and the lift would get seen.

I may have answered the show thing already, it's Sound Of Music, and while there's supposedly no limit to the budget, I'm supposed to be reasonable, I can't, for instance, say build a whole new stage with provisions for this thing built into it.wide

And I didn't mean 4' deep, as in the thickness of the platform, it'd be 18' long and 4' wide. I THINK when someone mentioned 4' deep they meant 4' from the deck of the platform to the bottom of its skirt?


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## Terrence MacArthur (Apr 9, 2015)

DRU said:


> I'm betting it was a carpet hoist system. (http://www.controlbooth.com/threads/qotd-carpet-hoist.19643/)
> 
> The lineset was weighted to be just the platform. Platform was brought in and the second arbor was standing by to be attached when the actor walked on. Both arbors brought the actor in, then were tied off for the duration of the scene. When the actor walked back on the platform, the arbors were untied and used to raise the platform and the actor to the top of the stairs. Second arbor was removed as the actor walked off, leaving the platform lineset in balance for it to fly out at the end of the scene.
> 
> DISCLAIMER: Flying a person in this manner is dangerous. Always consult with a professional for your flying-human needs.



It might have been, but I'm not sure that would work on this one. I didn't even consider that when I was still thinking I could just use the flys because I don't like the idea of adding in the weight of the second arbor to the scenery arbor, then somehow disconnecting them. Not even sure it can be done, aren't carpet hoists supposed to be just for if you're going to remove some load from the lineset (like detaching some piece of scenery from the batten) then leave it off, as opposed to adding load (the actor) then removing it again? And plus you'd have to fool around with a safety hitch, and you'd have to check "follow" I always check "email", but I vcan't find a way to see if I have it checked or not for this thread.if I ct the second arbor hooked into the system just as he steps on the platform. And, of course, as I've found out here, flying actors using a couunterweight fly system, even for a static lift, is now considered too dangerous to ever do.

And sorry, Bill, I missed your thing about attaching the arbors with a chain before I first wrote this reply (I'm editing now). But I'm trying to visualize it, I can't yet picture how to have it in play only between zero and 8 feet high. Besides, I've given up on using the flys, it obviously isn't safe enough nowadays.

Again, apologies foe late replies, I'm not getting email notifications. Maybe I didn't check email notifications at first? I THINK I did, but I don't know how to check and see if I did originally check for emails on this thread. And anyway, isn't that automatic if you started the thread?


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## Terrence MacArthur (Apr 9, 2015)

Suppose you wanted to use 2 winches to lift and lower (static lift) 250 pounds, which included a performer. Two half ton winches would only give you 2000 pounds, less than a 10 to 1 ratio. Two 1 ton winches would be a bit of overkill. Are there any such things as 3/4 ton winches?


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## Robert (Apr 9, 2015)

Pretty sure the winch would not be rated for that type of lifting. Probably will state so in the instructions, leads to not just negligent but criminally negligent if there was an injury. Danger Will Robinson, proceed with caution.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Apr 9, 2015)

What it lifts and what its designed to hold are separate issues. The machine should ideally not lift much more than the design requires, and the motor stall when overloaded. I just was called in to look at a home built lift in scenery and it failed and there was an injury. Among many problems, the motor was way too strong and when the limit switch failed, the lift pulled itself apart, snapping a 3/16" wire rope. That's over 4000 pounds for a lift to raise 200. Put up a 1000 pound package hoist today and sure you could hang 8,000 pounds on the batten and it wouldn't fail, but it won't lift that or much more than 1000 pounds.


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## porkchop (Apr 10, 2015)

If you're talking about chain hoists similar to CM Loadstars first off: no, no, no, and no again (yes I will continue to beat this dead horse hypothetical situation or not). If you had chain hoists actually designed for performer flying (they do exist) then those lifting devices would have been built with an adequate safety factor and provided you and the manufacturer agree as to what that should be (perhaps your insurance company says you have to have a 20:1 safety ratio or something extra high like that) then you could use those lifting devices for their full rated capacity.

What is more common when talking about using a winch to fly a performer is to use a drum winch similar to the BigTow Series that is specifically rated for performer flying at the speed and capacity that you need. In this case you would also be able to use the winch at full rated capacity (you would have spec'ed the winch for any above-and-beyond safety factor when ordering/renting) and if you used a multi-line winch then all lifting points could run back to the same lifting device which improves safety by preventing a situation where lifting points are moving at different rates of speed or some are moving and some are not.

To answer the question you asked, 3/4 ton chain hoists do exist, but they are very uncommon. In most situations it's much easier to just get 1 ton hoists.


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## de27192 (Apr 10, 2015)

Terrence MacArthur said:


> Suppose you wanted to use 2 winches to lift and lower (static lift) 250 pounds, which included a performer. Two half ton winches would only give you 2000 pounds, less than a 10 to 1 ratio. Two 1 ton winches would be a bit of overkill. Are there any such things as 3/4 ton winches?



What you are overlooking is that the winches ALREADY have a safety factor incorporated into their SWL.

A half ton winch should have at least a 5:1 FoS already so if you try to work to a 10:1 safety factor from it's SWL, then you are probably creating a 50:1 FoS which is pointless and as Bill points out could even make it worse.

So if your load is 250lbs and you have a 1000lbs winch with a 5:1 FoS then you are looking at a 20:1 FoS on the lift.

But as has been mentioned... when flying people, the weight of the performer is only one consideration.


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## Footer (Apr 10, 2015)

Merged threads... Again. Please stop making new threads on this subject.


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