# Senior Technicians/Stagehands and Harness Use



## Jezza (Jul 2, 2007)

Ok, this is something that is well, starting to get on my nerves. I work in many theaters and venues in the New York area under the direction of older TDs, stagehands, LDs, etc. At these venues, we are commonly rigging or working at height. Being typically the younger and more agile once of the bunch, I typically offer and am happy to be the one to strap up, throw on my harness and work, whether it be climbing truss, rigging, working on the grid, going up in the lift, typical dangerous stuff that you SHOULD have a harness on for. 

Now OSHA standards regulate working at height very carefully and stipulates very exactingly when a harness should and shouldn't be used. Personally, I always wear my harness when applicable. Here is the issue: many older technicians and supervisors, and even some younger ones don't, and will criticize you for wearing a harness. I can distinctly recall two occasions when I was about to climb truss and start a focus when an LD or TD said, half jokingly "oh, you don't need one of those [harness], just get up there". Now, I know that they were kidding around, to an extent, but it allows insight into what they think of as safe and necessary.

No I understand that when many of them started out, OSHA regs were not as strict and that OSHA didn't regulate theater heavily, however one would sort of expect and hope that as many of them have seen their friends and co-workers fall and become injured or die when they have not been clipped in properly or flat out not been wearing their harness, they would wise up and adjust to the new OSHA standards.

Moreover, all of the venues are checked yearly to make sure that they are complying with OSHA standards. I know venues who will only put their harnesses up in the grid or lower their retracting lanyards for ladders when OSHA comes for their inspection, as opposed to having it available for technicians to use at any time. I find this irresponsible, lazy, and extremely unsafe. YES, there are situations when your up on a truss and you've got to do some crazy maneuver to fix that instrument, and you know if you didn't have the stupid lanyard on, or you weren't fighting with webbing and biners at your waist, you could get the job done faster. However, isn't your life more important than getting it done faster?

What do you all think about this?


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## Footer (Jul 2, 2007)

Well, I just got done with a strike with the exact same mindset. One of our older IA guys who believes he is the head rigger (hes about 5'7, 50 some odd years old, has a long white beard, and always wears cutoff sleave shirts and a camo hat with a dear hunters logo). He enjoys going up in our 30' genie that does not have safety features and without the outriggers installed without a harness to its full height then standing on the mid rail of the bucket. I have to leave the stage when he does that. He then got hurt later in the day because he was using his hand as a hammer and messed up his wrist badly enough he was out for the rest of the day. We also had one guy today who liked to monkey up hollywood flats. Personaly, I always keep my harness in my car with my lanyard and large hook just so if I do end up going up, I'm ready.

This is also in the theatre that has a 90' grid and to get to the loading rail you have to climb a 40' ladder from the pin rail. The ladder has no cage on it however it does have a safety cable but there are no carriers for it, so basicly you are cliping into something that will drop as fast as you do. It should have a retractor on it, but it doesnt. The sad thing is I can anything about it not being safe and there are 10 other people who will scurry up it without hesitation. Most IA guys out there that came from the rock world live in the world off "I wont fall because I won't let go". I can not tell you how many people I have seen scurry accross the steel without a harness.


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## DCATTechie (Jul 2, 2007)

I know what your talking about. I work at my local theater where I am usually one of two others to be in the air hanging whatever is around. I have checked OSHA many a time just to see what the rules are. And typically, at the height that i am working (on a cherry picker mostly) I am required to wear harness. I have never worn one. Now this is not my choice, I am perfectly fine wearing a harness, in fact i would rather wear one than nothing at all. But i have never seen a harness in any form at my theater. Show me a harness and i'll put it on, but im not going to go out of my way to buy one when they should be provided by the company who you are working for (proved in OSHA). I think that if you had some lying around in plain view, people would be more likely to wear one. But thats my opinion among many.


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## Van (Jul 2, 2007)

It's funny I fall into a weird place between those worlds. I will lecture 'till I'm blue in the face about kids not wearing saftey glasses, or hearing protection. I'll be the first one to call somebody out for not using outriggers etc. Yet at the same time, I am from the " Just get it done" school. I teach people around me with a "Do as I say not as I do" , mentality. I'm guilty of breaking several rules, and I know it. I'm not justifying my posistion, I just finally realize I'm a much better teacher than practitioner when it comes to some safety standards. I think it's very important to instill in kids that the first thing you do is harness up, then climp up to the grid. Grab a dust mask then the palm sander. I also realize I'm horrible at following my own advice. So I say More power to ya, You put on that harness and when I can't walk or hear, or see, you can say "told you so!"


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## JD (Jul 2, 2007)

Jezza said:


> many older technicians and supervisors, and even some younger ones don't, and will criticize you for wearing a harness.



You know, its your life not theirs. Life is enough of a game of Russian Roulette as it is. I'll admit that when I was younger I did some pretty stupid things. These days I use a modified version of the old carpenter's saying: "Think twice, act once." Anything that can stack the cards in my favor for living another day, and requires that little effort is worth doing.


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## Footer (Jul 2, 2007)

Van said:


> It's funny I fall into a weird place between those worlds. I will lecture 'till I'm blue in the face about kids not wearing saftey glasses, or hearing protection. I'll be the first one to call somebody out for not using outriggers etc. Yet at the same time, I am from the " Just get it done" school. I teach people around me with a "Do as I say not as I do" , mentality. I'm guilty of breaking several rules, and I know it. I'm not justifying my posistion, I just finally realize I'm a much better teacher than practitioner when it comes to some safety standards. I think it's very important to instill in kids that the first thing you do is harness up, then climp up to the grid. Grab a dust mask then the palm sander. I also realize I'm horrible at following my own advice. So I say More power to ya, You put on that harness and when I can't walk or hear, or see, you can say "told you so!"



Very true, I can't tell you how many times I have been up in a geni and said those magic words "Pull the outriggers!". I tend to take safety steps to a certain level. I rarely ever wear a harness in a geni, however I know when it is "safe" to go up in a geni without outriggers and when you need them. I think it all comes down to intuition. I know the loads of a geni, I know what happens when you have a pipe 500 pounds out of weight and you are trying to pull it in with 2 bull lines, two loaders, and two flymen. I know the working load of most things onstage. The stagehands I work with do not. The simply dont know what is in the relative realm of safety and what is not. They see the immediate job to get done and not what is or is not supporting what they are on.


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## Jezza (Jul 2, 2007)

Footer4321 said:


> Very true, I can't tell you how many times I have been up in a geni and said those magic words "Pull the outriggers!". I tend to take safety steps to a certain level. I rarely ever wear a harness in a geni, however I know when it is "safe" to go up in a geni without outriggers and when you need them. I think it all comes down to intuition. I know the loads of a geni, I know what happens when you have a pipe 500 pounds out of weight and you are trying to pull it in with 2 bull lines, two loaders, and two flymen. I know the working load of most things onstage. The stagehands I work with do not. The simply dont know what is in the relative realm of safety and what is not. They see the immediate job to get done and not what is or is not supporting what they are on.



See, here is the problem. Yes, I am guilty of all of this too. There have been times when I needed to get a focus done quick and the only way was to pull the outriggers out of one side of the lift or to unclip for a second just to get around the piece of steel and then smack the light. There are always exceptions and situations that will test what our priorities are. What is sad and also very telling about our lives, is that in the long run, we will typically forgo safety (to some degree) to get the job done. When it comes to the safety of others, be it performers, co-workers, or the general public, that is paramount, in all of our minds I'm sure. But there are times when we really gamble with our own lives, over a little thing like saving 25 seconds here or there by participating in unsafe actions. Its this vicious paradox....we all are completely dedicated to the craft and to the production, people in theater/entertainment have tremendous dedication to what they do, sometimes I guess, too much. 

The "Do as I say, not as I do" mantra, although used by many and myself on occasion, is possibly the most detrimental to the brains of an impressionable crew. Van, I am by no means calling you out here, but you raised a good point. This is utilized commonly by many in the business who have been around gear long enough and experienced enough to know what something is really unsafe or not--or rather maybe we should look at is as whether that person thinks it is unsafe or not. As we age, our notions of safety and comfort level with operations around the stage develop an inverse relationship. As we become more comfortable and seasoned, some levels and procedures of safety disappear. To some degree, this is inevitable and I know that I don't need a block and fall to lower in the cyc pipe at the main stage that I work at. A good wrap and a firm grip will do it just fine. I know that if I take the 4th leg of the lift out and lean out of the Genie I can just climb out onto that piece of steel and monkey around. However, the other impressionable crew members don't. They look at you and myself doing these things with some degree of art and finesse, because we are so comfortable with this practices, and they must assume that they will be capable of those actions themselves. This is dangerous. This is the wrong way to teach younger people the craft.

Also, working with older people, there is always an element of trying to prove yourself, regardless of how secure one is with their skills or not. I know there have been moments when I've waived safety to one degree or another just to get something done quick and artfully, to show people I know my stuff, because that is exactly how they would have done it. 

Gotta go load out, more tomorrow.


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## ship (Jul 3, 2007)

Someone wants fall protection while climbing an eight foot ladder, I might if they walk about in such gear while not on the ladder make a joke, but I have total respect for anyone that wants to use the equipment using it no matter the situation. There are certain mandatary situations for using it, but in general a policy of beyond that, you want it in situations other than this, put it on.

Full classes in climbing truss ladders, walking a truss, operation of machinery etc. are given frequently and you are not allowed to do so without certification by those professionally trained and even certified in anything from fork lift driving to climbing and safety. Also have two certified EMT people on staff, in addition to two fire men and a former Navy Medic that has scraped bodies off the ceiling after they hit their ejection seat lever while in a building, much less lots of others certified in first aid and my military training... let’s see, start the bleeding, stop the breathing, dirty the wound and don’t protect from shock. ... or was that inverse. TBA is further training on rescue of those after fall protection has happened. Those that train are able to, they are not always in the building.

I”m just old school enough to have been raised without such gear. There is nobody better than I atop a wagging in the breeze castered A-Frame ladder and I would rather nobody but me on it anyway. At other times while playing Spider Man across a low grid during warm ups, the grid fell apart and down I went into the middle of the assembled actors... that was fun. Later, especially after a bosemens chair with my repelling harness 40' above the deck, I did started using real fall protection to the extent I could provide on my own and now work where it’s mandatary. (Most have their own fall protection that do shows but the shop gear is absolutely inspected by trained personel before each use. This to the extent of load testing vertical fall arresters according to their certifications for needed testing - believe it's every three years. Took part in one such test.) 

On the other hand, I’m also at times in the do as I say not as I do class or I have a bigger rear to chew than you do and often get the wink and nod if I’m standing atop my 4' ladder. Last week for the first time since the fall protection horizontal life line was installed above my pallet racks, I wore it - even forgot how to put it on - it was a new type of harness however. This as opposed to the last couple of times I was atop the pallet rack where I did at times not have such good balance and at one point me being alone in the shop late one Friday night with nobody due in until Monday. (This horizontal life line was something I asked for and supervised the install on following those near fall times. It’s only 14' and most likely I would be able to catch myself on the way down but boy would it hurt. This way at least while it would hurt, it would not be a question of how many lamps broke my fall on the way down.) Measure once, cut twice - I still often follow that rule but demand those I supervise do otherwise. On fall protection on the other hand, given I’m often not the one I’m sending up in anything from a lift to climbing the rack, fall protection is required by me. 

I also follow this at this point. No exceptions, someone tells me there is someone in a lift without it, while not the safety manager, my word is sufficient they comply, someone mentions this to me, I find out in making them comply. Ground support people not paying attention to their job, and or people in the area of a lift not wearing a construction helmet, they hear from me and comply. Not the safety manager but been around long enough that it’s enforced. A few weeks ago a 30+ extended scissors lift ran over a laser pointer. I was sitting chatting with a different shows crew chief and we all just kind of saw this yellow/black piece of gear shoot across the shop. Didn’t think much of it other than that the Shop Stewart is going to be pissed in knowing what it used to be. He had to go to great lengths to have the company buy this laser for him and it just became a semi-crushed golf ball when it met the tire of a moving extended scissors lift. As policy, I don’t agree with the concept of moving a lift about at full extension but was over ruled on the concept of having a ground guide for the lift. Obviously the concept of having a ground guide didn’t filter all the way down to those on the ground ensuring that where the vehicle was moving say might not run over a not so cheap laser under it’s wheels this day. What if it were say a cinder block, sand bag or something that wouldn’t crush given a 30' tower? 

Following this, I made sure the ground support assigned person did her job, much less everyone in the area as policy wore a hard hat in not listening to excuses. Also was told that besides observing that the person operating the lift did not follow policy about not moving the thing without ground support, he was not wearing his harness. Did some correction of education for this person also - more his fault than hers in many ways.

Turns out the laser was personally owned by the crew chief of the show and it was not a shop tool. He for all intensive purposes had what was left of the tool roll to his feet, picked it up and tossed it in the trash, than proceeded to walk away from the room very calmly. This in ignoring questions of if he was upset by the ground support person.... Took it kind of well for a no doubt 20 year in the industry veteran that has been known over the years to kick people’s rear.

Told him to put the crushed tool on my work table and if not repairable, I would replace it. Instead he replaced it that day in having more points to hang and submitted the receipt. All because the ground support person was not paying attention and doing her job and the operator of the vehicle 30' up in the air was moving the lift without having a ground support person actively paying attention to what she was supposed to be doing. This much less not wearing fall protection or if no ground support in doing her job while moving it, bringing the thing down. The operator was supposed to be a seasoned roadie. Not impressed.


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## gafftaper (Jul 3, 2007)

I just took a intensive 3 day class on theater safety at a nearby university. The class is aimed mostly at Highschool teachers but is often attended by college faculty as well. The text book was "Dr. Doom's" book... the titled something like "400 pages of how theater will kill you". It was a "fun" class.

So there I was spending 27 hours in 3 days discussing teaching safety and maintaining a safe theater. Over and over I heard people discussing the same things that are mentioned above. Sometimes there isn't time to use the outriggers, sometimes you get busy and forget to use the hearing protection, Sometimes you just have to use the dangerous A frame to get the job done. Except in this case the people doing the work are 14-18 years old. Want to know where the Macho attitude starts? It's with kids riding the arbors or climbing the T-bar all the way to the loading gallery when the teacher is out of the room (AHH... things so dangerous I had never even considered them possible.)

You know what the best part is? OSHA only applies to employees. If students are doing a light hang, there is no law requiring them to wear fall protection equipment so the district isn't required to even provide it.


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## Logos (Jul 3, 2007)

In Oz and the UK "duty of care" would kick in. Giving you and the school a duty to ensure "reasonable" safety precautions are taken even if not defined by law. This obviously then becomes a debate over reasonable and what that means.


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## Jezza (Jul 3, 2007)

gafftaper said:


> I just took a intensive 3 day class on theater safety at a nearby university. The class is aimed mostly at Highschool teachers but is often attended by college faculty as well. The text book was "Dr. Doom's" book... the titled something like "400 pages of how theater will kill you". It was a "fun" class.
> So there I was spending 27 hours in 3 days discussing teaching safety and maintaining a safe theater. Over and over I heard people discussing the same things that are mentioned above. Sometimes there isn't time to use the outriggers, sometimes you get busy and forget to use the hearing protection, Sometimes you just have to use the dangerous A frame to get the job done. Except in this case the people doing the work are 14-18 years old. Want to know where the Macho attitude starts? It's with kids riding the arbors or climbing the T-bar all the way to the loading gallery when the teacher is out of the room (AHH... things so dangerous I had never even considered them possible.)
> You know what the best part is? OSHA only applies to employees. If students are doing a light hang, there is no law requiring them to wear fall protection equipment so the district isn't required to even provide it.



Riding an Arbor? Christ. I've seen some high school techs do some silly things, potentially very dangerous things, but that is definitely a new one. Well, I'm heading out to work in the grid all day and re-do some linesets, lets see if there are any life lines up there or places I can clip into...


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## Van (Jul 3, 2007)

Jezza, I agree with you 100%. I think the "do as I say.." is detrimental. Unfortunately, as ship said in his post, e grew up in a time when that kind of stuff was not only not thought of, but not availible either. I also agree with ship in that if ther is a job to be done on the top of a 30 foot A-frame on casters, I'm probably the one doing it, for the safety of the rest of the crew. So, no hard feelings, I agree with you 100%.


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## gafftaper (Jul 3, 2007)

Logos said:


> In Oz and the UK "duty of care" would kick in. Giving you and the school a duty to ensure "reasonable" safety precautions are taken even if not defined by law. This obviously then becomes a debate over reasonable and what that means.



Isn't that the point of this whole discussion? It's a all a debate of how much risk you are willing to take. We have Ship and Van talking about how they are willing to take personal risks (that others say may be excessive) for the good of show and the crew around them. Someone else talked about unclipping for just a second to reach just a little farther. Still others talked about people who feel bullet proof and don't think they need a harness at all. It's all a matter of personal risk assessment. We all see the same hazards but we assess them differently based on where and how we were trained and the culture of safety we currently work in. 

One of the things the guy teaching my safety class last week said was, "Is it worth risking your life so that the show goes on?" We've all been trained that the correct answer is Yes... the publicity is out, the posters are printed, the fliers have been mailed, the royalties paid, the audience is coming... but how stupid is that when you really think about it? As theater technicians we have this deep code of honorthat we all live by, sort of like samurai or something, ... but in the end it's just entertainment... is our code of honor really worth dying over? Is risking your life to unclip so that you can tweak that one last instrument REALLY worth it? 

Personally I'll go with the motto I read around here a while back. "There are old riggers and bold riggers but there are no old bold riggers".


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## JD (Jul 3, 2007)

gafftaper said:


> "Is it worth risking your life so that the show goes on?"



Ummm... here for the fun of it, is an example where the answer was YES!

I was doing a New Years show at the West Philly Arena (no longer standing) in the 70's and the lead act (The Ohio Players) decided not to go on due to an issue with the promoter. The audience was about 6000 less that happy drunk people. They started rioting! I was on the top of a 20 foot follow spot platform when the now riotous mob decided to tear it down! As luck would have it, the band saw what was happening and announced they would go on. (Whewu!!) This is one case where the show not going on might have cost me my life!

As I said, it was a fun (or not so fun for me) example. In general, if the choice is profit or life, I will take life every time!


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## jwl868 (Jul 3, 2007)

It is much too easy to take short cuts and skip safety procedures. But, (and to belabor the point) these are bad habits to get into. One can rationalize the unsafe action, but it is still wrong. 

I don’t buy into the personal riskargument. (Although it may be applicable if you are working for yourself, but I’m not sure I want to go there and those are the exceptions.) Most likely, you are working for someone and the responsibility for your safety invariably falls on that party, whether it is a school district, employer, owner, or state. This responsibility may be established legally by OSHA, school rules, or other state laws. (Anything else, a good labor lawyer will catch, though that’s after the fact.) Because of the costs associated with a poor safety record (higher insurance premiums, higher medical insurance rates, rejection of bids for work, bad press, bad reputation, etc.), the “employer” is well within his rights to discipline you, restrict you, or fire you for failing to follow safety procedures. So from a purely mercenary point of view, taking a personal risk does affect others.

Don’t get pulled into the “that won’t happen to me” macho mentality. Play the roulette wheel enough, and the house will win. 

Joe


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## Jezza (Jul 3, 2007)

jwl868 said:


> It is much too easy to take short cuts and skip safety procedures. But, (and to belabor the point) these are bad habits to get into. One can rationalize the unsafe action, but it is still wrong.
> I don’t buy into the personal riskargument. (Although it may be applicable if you are working for yourself, but I’m not sure I want to go there and those are the exceptions.) Most likely, you are working for someone and the responsibility for your safety invariably falls on that party, whether it is a school district, employer, owner, or state. This responsibility may be established legally by OSHA, school rules, or other state laws. (Anything else, a good labor lawyer will catch, though that’s after the fact.) Because of the costs associated with a poor safety record (higher insurance premiums, higher medical insurance rates, rejection of bids for work, bad press, bad reputation, etc.), the “employer” is well within his rights to discipline you, restrict you, or fire you for failing to follow safety procedures. So from a purely mercenary point of view, taking a personal risk does affect others.
> Don’t get pulled into the “that won’t happen to me” macho mentality. Play the roulette wheel enough, and the house will win.
> Joe




This is sort of the argument I was trying to make. Funny thing--today we were on on the loading bridge and had to lean way too far out to get some of the bags on. Myself and one of the senior hands who I was with threw up our hands and said "No way!" I ran down, grabbed my harness clipped on to a beam that was close and tossed the bags on no problem. We are going to put up a cable line that spans the length of the bridge tomorrow to clip a harness or pull line onto to bring the bags or the sunday in closer to the bridge--its really great when you get to work with an older crew member who is as concerned about safety as I am.


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## Van (Jul 3, 2007)

Jezza said:


> This is sort of the argument I was trying to make. Funny thing--today we were on on the loading bridge and had to lean way too far out to get some of the bags on. Myself and one of the senior hands who I was with threw up our hands and said "No way!" I ran down, grabbed my harness clipped on to a beam that was close and tossed the bags on no problem. We are going to put up a cable line that spans the length of the bridge tomorrow to clip a harness or pull line onto to bring the bags or the sunday in closer to the bridge--its really great when you get to work with an older crew member who is as concerned about safety as I am.


 
That reminds me of an install I was doing once. The guy I was with, my superior, was giving me grief cause I didn't want to stand with one foot on the edge of the grid and one on the t-bar rail, so I could brace myself to hold the 80 pound head blocks in place, over my head, while he cinced them down.
<it was an underhung system, so we were attaching to the bottom of the I-beam> 
Gee, 80 ft drop to the bottom of the arbor well, with no harness? Ummmm, no thanks. I think you came up with a good solution with deciding to add a safety cable to your loading bay. Please for the love of God make sure it's good and stout and crimped correctly!


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## Jezza (Jul 3, 2007)

Ha, that doesn't sound like much fun at all. We are an overhung system so putting in the head blocks isn't really that much of a chore. Its just the blasted pin-rail that they put RIGHT between the grid floor and the beam that takes a little pit of manuvering to get it into place. Just did a few of those today...not bad, just tricky. However, the pin rail is great when you need to sunday off the lines.

Now what WAS tricky was when our impact Mikita died and we didn't have a spare battery, was running a line from the compressor up to the grid and walking around the grid dragging behind us yet ANOTHER piece of line (hose) while we moved loft blocks around. 

Yeah, we think that safety line will be a really great addition. The way our loading bridge is set up is that they bridge itself is at about mid-thigh height, so if you were to let a bad pull you around a little, you would sail right off the bridge. So this safety line will serve two purposes. It will first off allow for a harness clip point, which is always good. But, it will also create a tensioned position from which you can attach a piece of chord to the linset wrachet it up close to the bridge so your not leaning out to put on bags or sunday off a set. This helps a great deal for some of our linesets which are difficult to access due to the f*cking sprinkler pipes and beams that have no business being where they are. And I will NOT be the one crimping or crosbying--I'll let the TD do that, that way if it fails, its not on me!

Today was a good day for safety on the stage--it was slow pace, relaxed, methodical and repetitive. Its when your doing a load-in and there are 20 people on the stage doing 30 different things and you needed to get that truss in the air or that pipe flown or the instrument focued 5 minutes ago that **** starts to hit the fan and safety goes out the window.


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## ship (Jul 3, 2007)

gafftaper said:


> Isn't that the point of this whole discussion? It's a all a debate of how much risk you are willing to take. We have Ship and Van talking about how they are willing to take personal risks (that others say may be excessive) for the good of show and the crew around them.



Not persay a question of taking personal risks, more ensuring that if something must be done which could be very unsafe, it’s done by the most experienced person on the crew and done in their way. Also, that by way of experience while climbing the thing, a certain knowledge of what’s a normal creek and what to become immediately concerned about, much less rather me than someone else. What there abouts of 15 years professional experience and training and focusing lights off and on since about 1984. Not personal risk, doing it safely within the bounds of years training on say such a ladder rather than having someone else atop the ladder that might take a risk with it.

As the case with say a A-Frame on casters. Done in my way means that I don’t want anyone on it but me, there is one person on each side actively steadying it and ensuring it does not move, than when it does move, and each time it moves I will have already climbed down to at least the mid point of the lower section. There is no reaching for another instrument out of balance or any short cuts taken. This means never surfing or riding the top of the ladder even for a short stint on the last few fixtures. This being an example of the last time I was on a castered A-Frame. Only reason it did not come off the caster unit as I normally do was it was bolted in by way of a very permanent way and house equipment.

I expect Van also atop a ladder has had training by old timers on it, years of experience in climbing one and also would not off center or reach while on it. This much less ride the top. Different concept in the use of one than use of one most would think. Recommended no, and not a practice that is optimum choice. There are things such as the tie in to the power, figuring out structure etc. that is something just anyone is allowed to do. Not tolerance for personal risk, or I’ll do it but nobody else should, more management responsibility. Or in the case of the last time I was on the ladder, the only professional tech person in the building (community theater) - I did not want anyone else up on the ladder if I was in the room.

Yes, you are correct about personal risk, but I don't think you understand it was not persay a question of risk, more out of safety. While I was in the building, I also would not let anyone touch the fly rail. Or if they were designated, and in fact for the most part experienced, while they operated it I kept within a certain distance from this person, gloves ready.

Toss the A-Frame extension ladder on casters... Yep, that's an option. Had it had more sway to it than it did and that would have been done. Highly recommending that the casters are removed to the owners of the theater, yes that also happened in addition to a few other recommendations. To a certain point however, I accessed the situation and gear and decided to use it. This was on me using the gear and my own judgement of it. This much less an absolute supervision of those I chose to foot the ladder.

A-Frame Extension ladders in general not the best but they are OSHA compliant I believe. On caster units... this one seemed not home made but none the less not my primary choice. Did I do it, yes in this last instance. Would I again, no. Kowing what this theater has available, I would specify it gets left in a corner and bring one, or that it come off it's frame. On the fly however it was me making the choice, judging the equipment and the one on it.

Hope that explains a bit further this choice not out of innocence or personal risk but as it were an educated judgement.


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## lightbyfire (Jul 4, 2007)

I have on occasion gotten flack for wearing a harness while in a boom lift and insisting on not moving while up. I just go about my business quietly, i figure i probably wont change a lot of the old hats minds, but if i do my job well i will hopefuly still leave a good impression. 

My school has also made a big commitment to safety over the past year. we are upgrading our facility to be fully OSHA compliant and last month I attended an OSHA 510 course for Construction Safety in which i learned a great deal. 

While taking the course we had an OSHA inspector come in to speak with us, and I asked him what his thoughts were on theatres, briefly describing what it is we do. he was shocked to learn the extent to which theatres are essentially continuous construction projects, and he said that he would be more likely to site violations in a permanent construction facility (theatre), because there is absolutely no excuse for improper training or facilities. He also said that just because we are unpaid students does not relieve the institution from the employee employer relationship, and hed likely site anyway. That may not actually hold up in court, but reguardless in my opinion any college or highschool should be held just as responsible as any professional theatre or shop. 

I feel very strongly on the subject and in the coming year will be working on creating a full safety standard packet for our theatre which will be a comprehensive list of expectations for all students and employees, as part of my senior thesis project. 

I am also very glad to hear professionals on this website who have made commitments to provide good examples for younger members, I believe that the only way for the risk taking culture to change is from the top down, the supervisors have to be safe before the workers will ever completely try.


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## Charc (Jul 4, 2007)

lightbyfire said:


> I have on occasion gotten flack for wearing a harness while in a boom lift and insisting on not moving while up. I just go about my business quietly, i figure i probably wont change a lot of the old hats minds, but if i do my job well i will hopefuly still leave a good impression.
> My school has also made a big commitment to safety over the past year. we are upgrading our facility to be fully OSHA compliant and last month I attended an OSHA 510 course for Construction Safety in which i learned a great deal.
> While taking the course we had an OSHA inspector come in to speak with us, and I asked him what his thoughts were on theatres, briefly describing what it is we do. he was shocked to learn the extent to which theatres are essentially continuous construction projects, and he said that he would be more likely to site violations in a permanent construction facility (theatre), because there is absolutely no excuse for improper training or facilities. He also said that just because we are unpaid students does not relieve the institution from the employee employer relationship, and hed likely site anyway. That may not actually hold up in court, but reguardless in my opinion any college or highschool should be held just as responsible as any professional theatre or shop.
> I feel very strongly on the subject and in the coming year will be working on creating a full safety standard packet for our theatre which will be a comprehensive list of expectations for all students and employees, as part of my senior thesis project.
> I am also very glad to hear professionals on this website who have made commitments to provide good examples for younger members, I believe that the only way for the risk taking culture to change is from the top down, the supervisors have to be safe before the workers will ever completely try.


Do you recommend the 510 course? Sapsis is installing our fall arrest system this summer. I'd love to get some good training, does the 510 course cover fall arrest?


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## avkid (Jul 4, 2007)

charcoaldabs said:


> Sapsis is installing our fall arrest system this summer.


Lucky, they're the best.
They also offer rigging seminars.
http://www.sapsis-rigging.com/seminars.html


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## Charc (Jul 4, 2007)

avkid said:


> Lucky, they're the best.
> They also offer rigging seminars.
> http://www.sapsis-rigging.com/seminars.html



Yes, but all those listed have already passed, and are not nearby.

Say, their store is 5 minute drive from my house. Would it be plausible that if I dropped by some day they'd mind giving me a short run-down?

I mean, I doubt it, since rigging is dangerous territory, and they'd be providing a service for free, but I thought it was worth a shot to get some instruction from the best.


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## avkid (Jul 4, 2007)

You could stop by and talk with whoever you can find to at least get the date of the next rigging seminar in Philly. 
I doubt you're going to get a free seminar though.


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## Charc (Jul 4, 2007)

avkid said:


> You could stop by and talk with whoever you can find to at least get the date of the next rigging seminar in Philly.
> I doubt you're going to get a free seminar though.



Good idea, thanks.


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## lightbyfire (Jul 4, 2007)

The 510 course is a little in depth if your just going for fall arrest. It is also somewhat tailored to the general construction industry and thus is more about railings and hole covers. Also the course essentially just covers matiral from the CFR 29 OSHA 1926 standard, Subpart M, which is one of the easier sections and is available free on OSHA's website. So it is more about the governing standards than about actual practice. 

As far as actual training, I believe Miller does onsight training although I may be wrong. I would also imagine that Sapsis will provide some form of onsight training if they are doing an install. 



(also, otherwise yes I highly recomend the 510 for anyone intersted in safety, particularly if you are in a position that has the authority to help make a safer work environment where you work.)


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## Charc (Jul 4, 2007)

lightbyfire said:


> The 510 course is a little in depth if your just going for fall arrest. It is also somewhat tailored to the general construction industry and thus is more about railings and hole covers. Also the course essentially just covers matiral from the CFR 29 OSHA 1926 standard, Subpart M, which is one of the easier sections and is available free on OSHA's website. So it is more about the governing standards than about actual practice.
> As far as actual training, I believe Miller does onsight training although I may be wrong. I would also imagine that Sapsis will provide some form of onsight training if they are doing an install.
> (also, otherwise yes I highly recomend the 510 for anyone intersted in safety, particularly if you are in a position that has the authority to help make a safer work environment where you work.)



I was hoping they'd provide some onsite training, but since it's during the summer I thought I'd probably end up with zilch. They aren't required to provide training though, right? It's just a courtesy to the client?

(Also, as a side note, they "are proud to be associated with the following projects", us included. )


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## Sean (Jul 5, 2007)

lightbyfire said:


> While taking the course we had an OSHA inspector come in to speak with us, and I asked him what his thoughts were on theatres, briefly describing what it is we do. he was shocked to learn the extent to which theatres are essentially continuous construction projects, and he said that he would be more likely to site violations in a permanent construction facility (theatre), because there is absolutely no excuse for improper training or facilities. He also said that just because we are unpaid students does not relieve the institution from the employee employer relationship, and hed likely site anyway. That may not actually hold up in court, but reguardless in my opinion any college or highschool should be held just as responsible as any professional theatre or shop.



I commend you for your safety efforts. A couple tidbits from my past research on the suject:
Students are not covered by OSHA (as mentioned earlier). If they are paid for their work they may be, depending on situation (though I don't recall if work-study or graduate assistants would be OSHA covered or not).
OSHA is a Federal bureau. It does not have oversight of State governments or other Federal operations. If you go a state school, your state Occupational Safety rules might apply, but OSHA does not. The military, police forces, etc do not have to follow OSHA rules.
Yes, it's true we _might_ fall into the construction rule section, but most of the time (ie not the two heavy days of load-in, etc) we fall into the "General Industry" section.
Remember there are exceptions for performance spaces (about the stage edge, etc) during a performance. But if I remember the rules correctly, for theatre to truly be following the "letter of the law" we'd have to have a ridgid handrail across the edge of the stage ALL OF THE TIME, EXCEPT for performances. Yes, that would mean during all rehearsals.
OSHA doesn't pay much attention to our industry. We're small, and are relatively safe (as compared to heavy industry). But just as the recent Rigging and Electricial certification programs have illustrated, we have to self-regulate before Big Brother comes in and gives us rules we cannot follow and do our jobs.

This discussion has reminded me that I want to go back and look up more of this. To the original poster, thank you for starting this thread. We are all guilty on occasion of the old "you didn't see me do this this way." Let's all be honest with ourselves, that's teaching the wrong thing.

Remember, no light is worth a life.

--Sean


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## Van (Jul 5, 2007)

Sean said:


> I commend you for your safety efforts. A couple tidbits from my past research on the suject:
> Students are not covered by OSHA (as mentioned earlier). If they are paid for their work they may be, depending on situation (though I don't recall if work-study or graduate assistants would be OSHA covered or not).
> OSHA is a Federal bureau. It does not have oversight of State governments or other Federal operations. If you go a state school, your state Occupational Safety rules might apply, but OSHA does not. The military, police forces, etc do not have to follow OSHA rules.
> Yes, it's true we _might_ fall into the construction rule section, but most of the time (ie not the two heavy days of load-in, etc) we fall into the "General Industry" section.
> ...


 
In addition to the limits of OSHA regulations listed above. Most of the time OSHA or State safety rules tend to apply to operations that have a minimum of 20 employees, in the area of concern. Let's say you are, Hmmmm Artists Repertory Theatre. Yes you have over 20 employees in total, but in the Production areas you only have a total of 4 full time and the rest are overhire. We do not fall into the OSHA jurisdiction. Now I would NEVER use this as an excuse to shirk on safety or belittle my crews for trying to be more safety concious. Just a bit of info to throw out there


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## Footer (Jul 5, 2007)

Van said:


> In addition to the limits of OSHA regulations listed above. Most of the time OSHA or State safety rules tend to apply to operations that have a minimum of 20 employees, in the area of concern. Let's say you are, Hmmmm Artists Repertory Theatre. Yes you have over 20 employees in total, but in the Production areas you only have a total of 4 full time and the rest are overhire. We do not fall into the OSHA jurisdiction. Now I would NEVER use this as an excuse to shirk on safety or belittle my crews for trying to be more safety concious. Just a bit of info to throw out there



Basicly, OSHA was founded to make sure that men do not fall into hot laddles of molten steel and scafold does not fall down and kill 38 people. For those of us who have worked in a heavy industry were OSHA inspections are a monthly, weekly, and sometimes daily thing (I worked for an communications contractor for a period of time working in Oil refinerys and steel mills), you get to the point were you spend just as much if not more time getting the proper gear on before you go out then it takes to do the actual job. When you have to put on a fire retardant blue suit, steel toed metatarsals, hard hat, safety goggles, and usually a fall arrest if you are doing anything at heights or involves climbing a ladder, you look at what we have to do to be safe and think nothing of it. All that gear is required (minus the fall arrest) just to walk around the refinery. Oh, and you can not have any facial hair either, or wear rings or any other piece of jewelry. 


OSHA pays more attention to the industrial pits simply because you can get killed or hurt there WAY faster then in a theatre. When nearly everything around you is flammable and there is fire around you as well, you take things to heart really quick.


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## What Rigger? (Jul 6, 2007)

In addition to the limits of OSHA regulations listed above. Most of the time OSHA or State safety rules tend to apply to operations that have a minimum of 20 employees, in the area of concern. Let's say you are, Hmmmm Artists Repertory Theatre. Yes you have over 20 employees in total, but in the Production areas you only have a total of 4 full time and the rest are overhire. We do not fall into the OSHA jurisdiction. Now I would NEVER use this as an excuse to shirk on safety or belittle my crews for trying to be more safety concious. Just a bit of info to throw out there
*While the above is true, there's also written into the OSHA fall protection regulations what's commonly referred to as 'common sense'. It's hard to find, but read carefully, it's there. In a nutshell, it tells you that you should use whatever is the most stringent rule, and if you feel the need for it, use protection even if rules don't specifically call for it. For example: State OSHA says 'Use X protection'. Fed OSHA says 'Use X protection plus additional safety Y'. Employer policy says "Use X, Y, AND Z". 
Now, even though employer policy is not necessarily the same as the law, if your employer's policy is the most stringent, you use employer policy.
You maybe can't change the minds of idiots who think they're tougher than gravity. But we all have to strap a set of brass ones on and try. Ethics demands this.
My response to dummies who don't use fall protection is this: "You can see with 100% accuracy into the future and guarantee me you won't fall? Or do you just consider yourself expendable because your family/children and friends don't want you to come home?"
You can't step to that. Not at all. Take it from me, the guy who chooses to be a rigger in LA/Orange County- a place on top of an earthquake fault. I'm not takin' ANY chances.*


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## jwl868 (Jul 6, 2007)

I don’t believe that there is a minimum number of employees for the applicability of the OSHA Health and Safety Standards. I could not find any such statement in 29 CFR 1910 for General Industry, nor could I find it in 29 CFR 1926 Construction Industry (unless it is listed under some other general heading). (CFR = Code of Federal Regulations)

I believe that some specific recordkeeping and reporting requirements under OSHA may not apply to industries below some set number of employees. OSHA also exempts many industries from certain reporting and record keeping requirements (and theaters apparently fall under this exempted set). Coincidentally, many of the industries that have these reduced reporting requirements are small businesses, which leads to the appearance that the exclusion applies to small companies. 

Joe


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## gafftaper (Jul 7, 2007)

Two notes on OSHA... 
Federal law says if a state decides to write it's own safety standards they must exceed OSHA. So it's actually:
- "OSHA says you must do X" 
-"State safety code says you must do at least X and maybe also Y"

Also the guy teaching my safety class last week said that there was only one state that has specific labor safety laws that are written for theater. Yep folks it's Idaho! Leading the way in occupancy rules, theater rigging, and arena rigging.

I don't know for sure that there aren't other states with specific theater laws but there it is in Idaho. Crazy huh?


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## ship (Jul 11, 2007)

I was at an install over the weekend of some pop band at a sports stadium. Saw the IA riggers climbing a ladder that seemingly had a wire rope at it’s center & stop block mid-way down so as to catch someone over like 12' should they fall.

Curious I thought this system as opposed to normal vertical fall arrest I’m used to. There was a wire rope running down the center of the ladder & mid-way up was a sort of stop block they would have to work around as climbing the ladder, yet it would stop them before they hit the deck.

Saw one of the IA people look at his harness (a repelling one not a fall protection one - nobody even if they had a dual purpose one was using their harness in that mode that I could see), clip in than un-clip his non shock absorbing lanyard. He was seemingly a newbee in being confused with what to do & ended up following everyone else in not clipping in while climbing the ladder which also did not have a cage about it. Most repelling harnesses also did not even use the shoulder straps thus while heavily padded were not possible to rig as per a safety harness. Found it curious the use of such gear and don't remember anyone having a persay proper harness in use.

They than once atop all clipped their non-shock absorbing lanyards into a construction type horizontal fall protection wire rope for walking the beams. Again, no shock absorption or rear mounted to the body attachment. The wire rope itself was not shock absorbing either.

Kind of curious as it was an “A” crew to the best of my knowledge - this even if some of them were seemingly under training as to how to do rigging. None were using what I would think normal safety practices, instead while they did clip in once walking the beams, they didn’t clip in the way that’s normal, and were not using shock absorbing equipment over what’s normally used for repelling. This of course noted that the lanyards were not overly long so a fall would only be a few feet at most theoretically.


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## Footer (Jul 11, 2007)

ship said:


> I was at an install over the weekend of some pop band at a sports stadium. Saw the IA riggers climbing a ladder that seemingly had a wire rope at it’s center & stop block mid-way down so as to catch someone over like 12' should they fall.
> Curious I thought this system as opposed to normal vertical fall arrest I’m used to. There was a wire rope running down the center of the ladder & mid-way up was a sort of stop block they would have to work around as climbing the ladder, yet it would stop them before they hit the deck.
> Saw one of the IA people look at his harness (a repelling one not a fall protection one - nobody even if they had a dual purpose one was using their harness in that mode that I could see), clip in than un-clip his non shock absorbing lanyard. He was seemingly a newbee in being confused with what to do & ended up following everyone else in not clipping in while climbing the ladder which also did not have a cage about it. Most repelling harnesses also did not even use the shoulder straps thus while heavily padded were not possible to rig as per a safety harness. Found it curious the use of such gear and don't remember anyone having a persay proper harness in use.
> They than once atop all clipped their non-shock absorbing lanyards into a construction type horizontal fall protection wire rope for walking the beams. Again, no shock absorption or rear mounted to the body attachment. The wire rope itself was not shock absorbing either.
> Kind of curious as it was an “A” crew to the best of my knowledge - this even if some of them were seemingly under training as to how to do rigging. None were using what I would think normal safety practices, instead while they did clip in once walking the beams, they didn’t clip in the way that’s normal, and were not using shock absorbing equipment over what’s normally used for repelling. This of course noted that the lanyards were not overly long so a fall would only be a few feet at most theoretically.



Thats cable situation is pretty much the same thing that is at the theatre I am currently at. Its a 40' non caged ladder with a cable going up the side, in the middle of the cable 20' up it is anchored into the wall. What they tell me is you go up, re-clip at the 20 while hanging off the ladder, and the reclip. I know that carriers exist that lock up on cables (thats what they use on large outdoor ladders up smoke stacks and the like). Why they dont have them is beyond me. I do have a 4' lanyard that does not have a shock absorber that I occasionally use for doing things that might require me to hang a bit (my harness is rated for work positioning..), but I clip an absorber onto it when I am working on most things.


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## Wolf (Jun 26, 2008)

Im big on safety as i have said before. Im still relatively new. FYI im a lighting tech ranging from deck elc to designer. The places iv worked i have never seen an harness, i also really havent thought about it much. If I feel unsafe i wont do it. But know im interested on this harness, where can check them out?


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## Charc (Jun 26, 2008)

Wolf said:


> Im big on safety as i have said before. Im still relatively new. FYI im a lighting tech ranging from deck elc to designer. The places iv worked i have never seen an harness, i also really havent thought about it much. If I feel unsafe i wont do it. But know im interested on this harness, where can check them out?



Fall arrest systems should be venue specific and designed by qualified installers. SRI is a big player in fall arrest, and in fact I got in contact with him the other day regarding my school's system.

While I/Controlbooth/people don't condone the practice, many have their own small systems, with a harness (w/ front D-ring) and a (double leg style, preferable) shock absorbing lanyard. It's an option I've considered for personal use, as I'll be interning at a venue with a 15 year old catwalk design, and no fall arrest. However, I dismissed the idea pretty quickly. From the regional theatres and colleges I've seen, not all that many have caught-up with the fall arrest band-wagon. I was visiting a college & talking with their TD while SRI was there doing an inspection, and one of the things they said was that the college should really get some fall arrest in there.


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## Jezza (Jun 27, 2008)

Charc -- the front D ring should only be used for repelling or hauling -- the dorsal or rear D ring is the fall arrest attachment point.

Check out Petzl.com -- work solutions. They've got some of the most comfortable and reputable harnesses available. For more detailed information about fall arrest -- email members off the forum -- don't want to cause a tizy.


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## Charc (Jun 27, 2008)

Jezza said:


> Charc -- the front D ring should only be used for repelling or hauling -- the dorsal or rear D ring is the fall arrest attachment point.
> 
> Check out Petzl.com -- work solutions. They've got some of the most comfortable and reputable harnesses available. For more detailed information about fall arrest -- email members off the forum -- don't want to cause a tizy.



I'm not sure if this technically falls in the repelling or hauling, but the front D-ring is also used for wire rope grabs, say on a vertical lifeline for a ladder. So assuming this doesn't fall in those categories, the "only" comment is moot.

However, the reason why I said "w/ front D-ring" is that I believe OSHA specs now require that the harness have a front D-ring, but I could be wrong, and will not start my googling.


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## Charc (Jun 27, 2008)

Ah, here we are, I found where I read that statement:


ToolsForStagecraft.com said:


> And the Petzl C67 harness has the front sternal "D" ring now required by OSHA.


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## jwl868 (Jun 27, 2008)

Regarding that front ring: I tried searching through the OSHA website and OSHA regs as best I could, but I found no reference to the requirement for a front ring, only that for fall arrest, the attachment goes in the back (as already noted).

I did find a discussion (see link) about a change in the ANSI harness specification (which I believe OSHA uses) and that discusses the front ring and its uses. (ANSI specs are available only at a cost, so I don't have the full citation.) 

Lab Safety Supply - EZ Facts Safety Info - Document #347, ANSI Z359 - A New Lift to Fall Protection Standards

And part of that discussion:

Another change to Z359.1 was the addition of requirements and markings for harnesses equipped with a front-mounted D-Ring or attachment. In the past, standard harnesses with a front mounted D-ring could utilize that D-ring attach point for ladder climbing, fall restraint or work positioning systems only. “The new standard offers an explanation, that the front D-ring attachment on a harness should be positioned within the sternum (at the breastbone) area of the body. The front D-ring attachment is intended for the use in rescue, work position, rope access, and other ANSI Z359.1 recognized applications where the design of the systems is such that only a limited free fall of two (2) feet is permitted.”


Joe


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## Charc (Jun 27, 2008)

jwl868 said:


> Regarding that front ring: I tried searching through the OSHA website and OSHA regs as best I could, but I found no reference to the requirement for a front ring, only that for fall arrest, the attachment goes in the back (as already noted).
> 
> I did find a discussion (see link) about a change in the ANSI harness specification (which I believe OSHA uses) and that discusses the front ring and its uses. (ANSI specs are available only at a cost, so I don't have the full citation.)
> 
> ...



Interesting finds, Joe. I did some searching as well, and returned similar results, and wasn't able to corroborate John's statement. I didn't find the bit you did about 2' free fall, but I find that interesting. I have a fall arrest system spec'ed by Uncle Bill, with vertical lifelines on the ladders, wire rope grabs used on front D-rings with carabiners. There is not shock absorber in the system. I'm not on the OSHA page I had before which had the specific definitions, but in my mind I think of this part of my system as fall arrest.


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## gafftaper (Jun 27, 2008)

Wolf said:


> Im big on safety as i have said before. Im still relatively new. FYI im a lighting tech ranging from deck elc to designer. The places iv worked i have never seen an harness, i also really havent thought about it much. If I feel unsafe i wont do it. But know im interested on this harness, where can check them out?



Giving advice on fall arrest systems is definitely outside the TOS of C.B. You need a pro to keep you alive. I would call/e-mail "Uncle Bill" at Sapsis. They sell everything you need. Explain what you want and how you want to use it and I'm sure he will help you put together your own safety bag. He would also be happy to give you some estimates on what it would cost to have proper safety lines installed in the building.


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## TimMiller (Jun 30, 2008)

I would like to take a class in fall restraint systems and how to properly rig for repelling. I have just learned "on the job" but I am beginning to forget things, and would really like a professional refresher course.


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## rosebudld (Jun 30, 2008)

I don't have a long reply to this.. but I'm guilty of the do as I say not as I do theory of direction.. so I just try to make sure that if anyone is in the air they wear their harnesses, and I try not to go up in front of them ever.. I'm comfortable (for the good or for the bad) working on lifts way up there, but in my older age (30 now ha ha) I've found that I'm more and more interested in taking the precautions to live another day.. so safety first because there always seems to be enough time to fix it later, but never enough time to do it right in the first place sadly enough..


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## Jezza (Jun 30, 2008)

rosebudld said:


> I don't have a long reply to this.. but I'm guilty of the do as I say not as I do theory of direction.. so I just try to make sure that if anyone is in the air they wear their harnesses, and I try not to go up in front of them ever.. I'm comfortable (for the good or for the bad) working on lifts way up there, but in my older age (30 now ha ha) I've found that I'm more and more interested in taking the precautions to live another day.. so safety first because there always seems to be enough time to fix it later, but never enough time to do it right in the first place sadly enough..



Agreed agreed.

Regardless of whether the front chest D-ring is now being spec'd as an attachment point for less than a 2' fall, I still wouldn't use it. On a ladder or vertical travel or positing point, I would hate to have my fall arrester in front of me. Seems like it would be continually slapping me in the face and getting in my way. Sure, I guess a front positioned arrest on a vertical ladder would prevent one from falling head first into the structure a little (as maybe a dorsal attachment would) however, I'd rather hedge my bets with a rear attachment. It just seems to me that it provides more of an occasion for lines to get fouled in other gear in the air having the arresting line/point that close to the structure you are supposedly climbing. I wonder what their reasoning is. 

In any other situation (truss walking, focus, focus chair, catwalk work, etc) a dorsal attachment would seem to be preferable -- and is law. 

The C67 you mention Charc has a waist oriented and a chest oriented front D-ring. The waist ring being used for positioning purposes and the chest one for arresting or accession on a vertical line. I thought you were referring to the waist oriented ring. (BTW, the C67 is a GREAT harness -- by far my favorite. If you can get the new 2008 version, do it! Its got a great new system for keeping the straps near the dorsal attachment spaced out and comfortable -- as well as a nifty new rear hauling ring. The FAST version is unnecessary though -- also seems like more of a liability. Buckles = bad.)


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## Charc (Jun 30, 2008)

I thought about purchasing my own harness and either manyard or self-retracting fall limiter, but I think I've decided against it. In places I've been so far, fall arrest is not the norm, I won't be the young kid that sticks out like a sore thumb...


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## gafftaper (Jul 1, 2008)

Jezza I want to point out that a lot of the advice you are getting in this thread is coming from a 17 year old who was trained in how to properly use the system installed in *his* theater. This is not meant in any way to be an insult to Charc (I love the spoiled, OSHA taunting, brat). The point is when I'm risking my life, I want the highest standard of training and expertise for MY equipment. 

If I was to take up skydiving there's no way I would let Charc pack my chute. I would want an expert with thousands of jumps to pack it. What do I REALLY know about Charc? I know what he CLAIMS to be true about himself but for all I know he could be a 12 year old girl from Iowa who has never stepped foot in a real theater. The same is true for everyone around here. I've met Van in person and toured his theater... I KNOW who he is. But what about the rest of you? Are you really the experts you claim to be? What about well known industry guy Steve Terry... how do I know the person here claiming to be Steve Terry actually IS Steve Terry. HELLO, We're talking about the INTERNET here! Yes I'm starting to sound paranoid... but when you are talking about a device that can save your life or let you die because you didn't connect it correctly or buy the correct part... it's time to be paranoid. Trade a few P.M.'s with "Whatrigger?" and you'll find out that paranoia is a quality required by the job description. 

So again I say take your questions to a real expert. Where are you at? We can help you find a real rigger. Or like I said before, e-mail/call a respected national dealer like Sapsis Rigging.


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## Jezza (Jul 1, 2008)

gafftaper said:


> Jezza I want to point out that a lot of the advice you are getting in this thread is coming from a 17 year old who was trained in how to properly use the system installed in *his* theater. This is not meant in any way to be an insult to Charc (I love the spoiled, OSHA taunting, brat). The point is when I'm risking my life, I want the highest standard of training and expertise for MY equipment.
> 
> If I was to take up skydiving there's no way I would let Charc pack my chute. I would want an expert with thousands of jumps to pack it. What do I REALLY know about Charc? I know what he CLAIMS to be true about himself but for all I know he could be a 12 year old girl from Iowa who has never stepped foot in a real theater. The same is true for everyone around here. I've met Van in person and toured his theater... I KNOW who he is. But what about the rest of you? Are you really the experts you claim to be? What about well known industry guy Steve Terry... how do I know the person here claiming to be Steve Terry actually IS Steve Terry. HELLO, We're talking about the INTERNET here! Yes I'm starting to sound paranoid... but when you are talking about a device that can save your life or let you die because you didn't connect it correctly or buy the correct part... it's time to be paranoid. Trade a few P.M.'s with "Whatrigger?" and you'll find out that paranoia is a quality required by the job description.
> 
> So again I say take your questions to a real expert. Where are you at? We can help you find a real rigger. Or like I said before, e-mail/call a respected national dealer like Sapsis Rigging.



Gaff, I appreciate your concern for both mine, and everyone else's safety on the board. I think the regardless of the differing opinions about what should and should not be discussed on the board, that those of us who air on the side of caution should be commended. 

I originally started this thread over a year ago as an open discussion about fall arrest use in the industry as we know it -- particularly noting my personal experience with older stagehands and their lack of use of fall arrest. I myself always use fall arrest, and was curious as towards where the over arching anti-harness attitude came from. If you go back far enough in the post history, you'll remember it became quite a debate about what is and isn't kosher to discuss on CB -- we all have our different opinions or ideas.

I was intrigued to see the post re-kindled a week ago. When I saw Charc's statement about a front D-ring being used for fall arrest -- I jumped, because regardless of whether I "should" talk to him about this on the forum, I've always been trained to never use the front d-ring as an arresting point and didn't want his 17-year old death to be on my conscious when the paper's read "Young lighting designer dies due to improperly connected fall arrest". There's an element of compassion you cannot avoid on the forum. Am I taking advice on this subject from Charc? Never, no offense buddy. Would I listen to him about lighting fixtures and design ideas, of COURSE -- any day. But your right -- we really have no idea who these people are. (I do however know Charc DOES exist, however, that's not the point).

Charc is doing the right thing by talking with "Uncle Bill" to get a properly installed system -- I commend him for his efforts as well. Its great to have someone so young being so safety conscious. 

AND CHARC -- NEVER STEER AWAY FROM SAFETY TO NOT BE THE SORE THUMB. I'll say it over and over again. Many of the venues I work at do NOT have installed fall arrest systems either because some of the locations don't fall into OSHA criteria for needing one or because if one was expensively installed, the majority of the crew being older, anti-harness stagehands, would not use them. I personally have my harness and arresting pack in my car at ALL times and just about every other gig whip it out when I've got to go truss walking or in the grid. Is the guy working next to me wearing a harness up there? No. Do I look like a dork with my big harness and lanyards and stuff? You betcha. Am I a little slower than he is? Sure. Am I SEVERELY increasing my probability in living in case I fall? Absolutely. Am I setting an example for the guys I work with, whether they like it or not? Yes, sure. Am I now the one who gets sent up to rig or focus more often? YES. Perhaps its because I'm getting good at what I do, or perhaps that the one or two minute difference it takes for me to strap up and travel around up there is worth it to my bosses in terms of KNOWING they have someone safe and strapped in up in the air. It's peace of mind for the person who hired you as well.

Another thing I should mention is that I, being somewhat new to the working at height and positioning ideas, am less confident in my own climbing/positioning abilities than some older stagehands, with lots of experience at height. Its safer for me, due to my lack of experience, to have strap up because the likelihood of me falling off the truss is probably greater than the guy next to me -- I KNOW that and make my decisions accordingly.


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## TheSlowPoisoner (Jul 1, 2008)

The school that I worked at used a Genie and a prayer. Hell, they didn't even have as many safety chains as they had lights in use and their electrics were under-weighted before I got there, though, so I suppose they had bigger worries. To my knowledge, they didn't even HAVE harnesses, and I remember looking for them at some point.


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## derekleffew (Jul 1, 2008)

Interesting appropriate anecdote. 
The IA local here requires its members to wear a harness when in a scissor lift, but my venue does not. So there have been times when I, as a venue employer, have been in a lift with an IA guy (or gal) in a harness and I am au natural. Neither of us impugned the other--we were both following the rules to the letter of the law as they applied to us. We both felt safe and comfortable. This is the only instance I can think of for mixed use. 

Elsewhere I've commented on the fact that only venue employees can operate venue-owned equipment. If equipment is rented by an outside company, anyone qualified can operate that equipment.

Now for articulating boom lifts, everyone inside must have fall protection, even when just driving the lift with the bucket 2' off the floor. 

Disclaimer: These are the rules and standard operating procedures my venue. Other venues can and will vary. *Always apply the most stringent of applicable rules when life-safety is involved, for yourself, regardless of what others do, say, or think.* I AM NOT a 12 year-old girl, even though I like Hannah Montana. What can I say, it was a fun show for which to operate a spotlight.


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## Charc (Jul 1, 2008)

Jezza said:


> I was intrigued to see the post re-kindled a week ago. When I saw Charc's statement about a front D-ring being used for fall arrest -- I jumped, because regardless of whether I "should" talk to him about this on the forum, I've always been trained to never use the front d-ring as an arresting point and didn't want his 17-year old death to be on my conscious when the paper's read "Young lighting designer dies due to improperly connected fall arrest". By the way, reading a previous post, I think we are mis-understanding each other, my vertical lifeline is directly infront of me, on the ladder, with maybe 1-3" of slack. There's an element of compassion you cannot avoid on the forum. Am I taking advice on this subject from Charc? Never, no offense buddy. Of course. Would I listen to him about lighting fixtures and design ideas, of COURSE -- any day. But your right -- we really have no idea who these people are. (I do however know Charc DOES exist, however, that's not the point). How do you know that? *gulp*
> 
> Charc is doing the right thing by talking with "Uncle Bill" to get a properly installed system -- I commend him for his efforts as well. Its great to have someone so young being so safety conscious. Yes, I don't know what happened to Bill though, I should follow up personally, but am away.
> 
> ...



Responses in teal.


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## lieperjp (Jul 1, 2008)

It's amazing to me this thread has come up... I just was discussing this with a friend. We have a very large wooden A-Frame ladder with a center extension... about 18' high when fully extended. It is at least 10-15 years old. I refuse to go on it because there is no fall arrest and I don't believe it is safe after several "strengthening" adjustments (lower steps re-enforced with brackets) made by untrained college students. The discussion with my friend took a nasty turn when I said I believe the college should purchase fall-arrest equipment. *But* he said the college shouldn't waste the money... after all we are on a very tight budget. I said... I don't think safety is too expensive. But the only response I got was "well, it's only used by a few people and they are really careful when they are on it. They know the risks when they go on it and if something happens to them, well, it was their choice." Stupid. Stupid. Stupid. But I can (thankfully) say we do use a fall-arrest system (OSHA compliant) in our gym when going up on the 28-foot Aluminum A-Frame ladder (with center extension) and when using our Genie lift. 

So, thank you, CB members, for reminding me and others that *SAFETY IS IMPORTANT*

p.s. does anyone know if volunteer organizations of private colleges must follow OSHA rules and regulations?


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## derekleffew (Jul 1, 2008)

lieperjp said:


> ...Does anyone know if volunteer organizations of private colleges must follow OSHA rules and regulations?


I don't care one whit whether or not they must. They SHOULD, and if they won't, I'd be advising everyone who would listen to refuse to work at that venue. It's tragic when a professional such as Angus Sinex dies while in the employ of a respected lighting company. It's equally, if not more, tragic when a volunteer or student dies, not due to an "accident", but due to venue management's or another's poor judgment.


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## gafftaper (Jul 2, 2008)

Lieper, Osha applies to employees. Students are technically not covered by OSHA. Now as Derek said of course institutions should be as concerned about student safety as employee safety. The interesting thing however is that in many cases student techs get paid at least occasionally. At that point they move into an interesting grey area that I believe OSHA would not tolerate. 

As for your ladder of death. We had one of those in college back around 1989. It was an A-frame with a vertical extension that took you up to 17 feet. The thing was all wood with round dowel rungs. Best of all it was on a home made rolling cart with no outriggers! The only way to use it for lighting was to climb up to the top throw one foot over to the other side and straddle the top rung with your legs locked together a few rungs down. At 6'2" and around 200 pounds I went up it once and said no way. Our old T.D. would go up there and stand while straddling the top rung, with his feet only one rung down... IN COWBOY BOOTS! That ladder was older than dirt and scary as hell in 1989. It was in use until last fall when I convinced the current T.D. to spend $600 and get a small scaffold (didn't take a lot of persuasion).

Is anyone else concerned about Derek being perfectly comfortable working "au natural". I mean you are in Vegas and your life style is your business. But I personally don't want to see your "rigging" free while working on a scissor lift. Doesn't your venue have a no loose equipment overhead policy?


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## jwl868 (Jul 2, 2008)

Just to re-iterate: US OSHA regulations apply to employees and employors in the private sector. Many states extend the rules to the public sector employees. At a private college, I doubt that there any work situations that are exclusively done by nonemployees (students) that could also be done by employees (custodians, maintenece pepople, teachers) who are covered by OSHA rules. If it's not safe for the nonemployees, then its not safe for the employees, and that's a problem.

US OSHA regulations can be found in Title 29 Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) 1910 and 1926. The applicability of the regulations is described in 29 CFR 1910.5.

Also, US OSHA has a pretty good website.

Joe


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## TimMiller (Jul 3, 2008)

I remember when i was getting my JLG certification they said that in an articulating boom lift every foot you are extended, it will catapult you 3 feet and the one i was getting my certification on would stretch out a good 12+ feet, so being thrown over 40 feet doesnt seem good, yet my boss said so it will throw you out a good 15 feet before your lanyard grabs ahold of you and throws your head into the side of the lift, which was a good point, its kinda one of those grey areas. About like our local college freaks about going up in a single man genie without a harness, yet the lanyard is so long, we can clip onto the grid, go down in the genie, reposition the genie and go back up without ever unclipping the lanyard. Doesnt make much since to me. When it comes to the scary ladder dance, i always refuse to go up, or if i can be convinced, i use a harness.


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## Charc (Jul 3, 2008)

TimMiller said:


> I remember when i was getting my JLG certification they said that in an articulating boom lift every foot you are extended, it will catapult you 3 feet and the one i was getting my certification on would stretch out a good 12+ feet, so being thrown over 40 feet doesnt seem good, yet my boss said so it will throw you out a good 15 feet before your lanyard grabs ahold of you and throws your head into the side of the lift, which was a good point, its kinda one of those grey areas. About like our local college freaks about going up in a single man genie without a harness, yet the lanyard is so long, we can clip onto the grid, go down in the genie, reposition the genie and go back up without ever unclipping the lanyard. Doesnt make much since to me. When it comes to the scary ladder dance, i always refuse to go up, or if i can be convinced, i use a harness.



Have you seen the new Miller Turbo Lite? Screw manyards! Pic 1 Info 1


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## derekleffew (Jul 3, 2008)

charcoaldabs said:


> Have you seen the new Miller Turbo Lite? Screw manyards! Pic 1 Info 1


From the specs on the model cited above:


 Miller TurboLite PFL features include: 


First affordable alternative to shock-absorbing lanyards
Extremely compact and lightweight (1.9 lbs. [.86kg]) provides 6 ft. (1.8m) working capacity lifeline; unit attaches directly to the harness back D-ring for greater mobility and versatility
That's nice; but in my venue I need a 50' working capacity. Also, it would be rather impractical when used on a truss with a horizontal lifeline. Let's try to avoid the term "Manyard" as it appears to be a proprietary product of one manufacturer.


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## lieperjp (Jul 3, 2008)

derekleffew said:


> I don't care one whit whether or not they must. They SHOULD, and if they won't, I'd be advising everyone who would listen to refuse to work at that venue. It's tragic when a professional such as Angus Sinex dies while in the employ of a respected lighting company. It's equally, if not more, tragic when a volunteer or student dies, not due to an "accident", but due to venue management's or another's poor judgment.



Most people ARE too afraid to go on it... I know of only 8 people who are comfortable enough to go on it, and I'm working to convince them it's not safe... As hard as I possibly can. I will be sending an official letter of complaint to the school once I go back and can take pictures...


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## Charc (Jul 3, 2008)

derekleffew said:


> From the specs on the model cited above:
> 
> 
> Miller TurboLite PFL features include:
> ...



How is it impractical? 50'? This is supposed to be a replacement for shock-absorbing lanyards, not for big ol' self-retracting lifelines.


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## derekleffew (Jul 4, 2008)

Charc:
Try walking a truss sometime with TWO of those vs. a double lanyard and you'll understand.


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## Jezza (Jul 5, 2008)

derekleffew said:


> Charc:
> Try walking a truss sometime with TWO of those vs. a double lanyard and you'll understand.



THANK YOU -- I can't imagine how much of a pain that would be. I've got enough trouble going up with a twin-tail rebar lanyard, a positioning line/hook, and whatever tools/gear I might be hauling up there.


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## Charc (Jul 5, 2008)

Jezza said:


> THANK YOU -- I can't imagine how much of a pain that would be. I've got enough trouble going up with a twin-tail rebar lanyard, a positioning line/hook, and whatever tools/gear I might be hauling up there.



But in a position with less than 18' of fall clearance? This way you always have the smallest fall clearance.


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## ruinexplorer (Jul 6, 2008)

jwl868 said:


> Just to re-iterate: US OSHA regulations apply to employees and employors in the private sector. Many states extend the rules to the public sector employees. At a private college, I doubt that there any work situations that are exclusively done by nonemployees (students) that could also be done by employees (custodians, maintenece pepople, teachers) who are covered by OSHA rules. If it's not safe for the nonemployees, then its not safe for the employees, and that's a problem.
> 
> US OSHA regulations can be found in Title 29 Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) 1910 and 1926. The applicability of the regulations is described in 29 CFR 1910.5.
> 
> ...




You also need to check with your state's Department of Labor as to the definition of what an employee is. In some states, you can be defined as a non-compensated employee which covers volunteers and students. Also, this can define what activities the student may participate in. While theater is not defined by the US Department of Labor, some of the activities we participate in are specifically mentioned and have age restrictions (operation of powered woodworking equipment such as circular saws). 

I commend all of you who choose to practice our art safely. Please remember that accidents don't always cause death. It can be worse for you to not sustain a fatal injury by living with the pain from an accident and loss of ability to work. Not only that, but you could end up paralyzed or in a coma. I understand that you may understand your own limitations and feel that you are behaving in a safe manner, but rarely are we working alone (and if you are doing something dangerous on your own, that falls into another category). After all, accidents aren't planned and are not always caused by the person who is the victim. 

I am glad to hear that so many of you are aware of safe practices and are trying to make others aware of it. I was terminated as a technical director from one of the premier not-for-profit theater centers in Phoenix primarily because I was enforcing safety (and reported violations to OSHA when the management failed to comply with federal and state regulations). Personally, I can't understand how any management would want to knowingly allow unsafe practices in their theater. When an accident occurs, every person in the food chain is liable until proven otherwise (for me it would have been as follows: the victim, co-workers, their immediate supervisors from their company, me, my boss, the non-profit running the complex, and finally the City which owned the complex). Of course my employer was somewhat aware of this so it wasn't written policy to ignore safety standards, but it was understood that we were to do so. When I put up a stink, especially after several unreported incidents (and a couple reported incidents), I was terminated for "differences of opinion"; just before the slow season.

Fortunately I now work for an employer who has the utmost concern for their employees. We cover many subjects as web-based tutorials as well as hands on classes. All technicians who will be required to be in areas where fall protection is needed are issued their own harness. Granted, I work in a venue that has a much larger budget than most, but safe practices are cheaper than lawsuits. If your school or venue doesn't have it in their current budget to put in safety measures, apply for grants, look for free training on the web, and OSHA will come for free and help you determine your safety needs (and you don't get fined when you invite them in this way). You can find out who the safety officer is for your venue and they should be aware of your working conditions. You have the right to work in safety!

Remember that just because you have a harness doesn't mean that you are safe from harm. Get proper training in identification of safe tie off points and necessary clearance. Make sure there is a rescue plan in case of a fall (even if it is as simple as who is responsible for calling 911).

I am sorry for the long winded post, but this is an important subject to me. I have worked hard over the years trying to help prevent injury and death to my friends and co-workers.


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## Jezza (Jul 6, 2008)

charcoaldabs said:


> But in a position with less than 18' of fall clearance? This way you always have the smallest fall clearance.



I don't quite follow you -- my double legged arresting lanyard will arrest a body of approx 160lbs in 4'. That sounds plenty safe to me... considering they aren't necessary/required until a height of 10'.

Like I said -- self retracting arresters on vertical positions (booms, ladders, vertical trusses) if they are permanently installed. Otherwise, a double legged rebar-style hook is usually the preferred/best option.


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## jbart74 (Jul 7, 2008)

I started reading this thread from the beginning an hour ago and had to jump many pages from July '07 to now. Interesting how this keeps going on. Anyway, my question is this: If I'm focusing an electric overstage at 30' in a personal lift with 4 outriggers installed, and I clip my harness into the bucket, how does that help me when a batten flies in/out and grabs my bucket and the whole lift goes over. Sorry if i skipped too many pages to see this answer, but it was kinda hard to search for. I've spent thousands of hours in a bucket and have sinced move to mostly design, but i've always been curious about this. I suppose the same question could be asked about a scissor lift in a tall ballroom that might run over a weak floor pocket. Being clipped into the bucket seems more of a death sentence to me. Comments? And again, sorry if this has already been covered.

JB


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## RonaldBeal (Jul 7, 2008)

In reply to jbart74:
Technically, use of a harness in a bucket truck, boom lift, scissor lift, etc, is for fall RESTRAINT, not fall PROTECTION. There are slightly different requirements between the systems, but the fall restraint system is supposed to prevent you from being able to go out side of the bucket. It is not meant to help you if the whole lift falls over.
RB


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## derekleffew (Jul 8, 2008)

RonaldBeal said:


> ...It is not meant to help you if the whole lift falls over...


Well, yes and no. The safest place to be in any personnel lift which is tipping over is INSIDE the bucket. Those who think that if the lift falls over, they can jump clear of it are just plain WRONG. Even if they manage to get safely to the ground before the lift, there's a good chance the lift will fall on them.

Rather than get hung up (no pun intended) on the difference between _fall arrest_ and _fall restraint_, most I know use the term _fall protection_.

Somewhere on the internet is a great story about an insurance claim where a man was using a rope and pulley to hoist bricks to a second story. I can't remember exactly how it goes, but he was picked up off the ground, then fell, then the bricks fell on top of him. On the way up AND down he hit the pile of bricks.


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## tomed101 (Jul 8, 2008)

derekleffew said:


> Somewhere on the internet is a great story about an insurance claim where a man was using a rope and pulley to hoist bricks to a second story. I can't remember exactly how it goes, but he was picked up off the ground, then fell, then the bricks fell on top of him. On the way up AND down he hit the pile of bricks.



I think I know the one you are talking about.

A man had rigged a pulley on the roof of a second story building during construction. At ground level he had rigged a makeshift ropelock. Now being the smart guy he is, he runs a rope through the pulley and ties a barrel to one end to hoist things up and down by hand. 

Now he raises the barrel to the top and loads the barrel with bricks to the brim then climbs down to the ground. He now releases the ropelock while holding onto the rope. The weight of the barrel of bricks lifts him off the ground where he now hurtles to the top of the building.

When the man reaches the top of the building, his hands get pulled partially into the pulley by the rope, and at the same time the bottom of the barrel breaks upon impact with the ground which lets all of the bricks fall out of the barrel. Now the man does not let go of the rope and is now is heavier than the barrel so he now falls to the ground while the barrel goes back up. At half way, the barrel hits him while it is on its way up. When the man is hit, he lets go of the rope and falls to the ground. Now the barrel has no counterweight and therefore falls to the ground, and hits the man who is now lying on the pile of bricks in considerable pain.


I hope I got that right, it's been a while since I heard that one.

Tom


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