# No more GrandMasters on ETC consoles



## gbdesign (Nov 2, 2019)

Can anyone tell me why ETC has decided to do away with physical GrandMaster faders?


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## tdrga (Nov 2, 2019)

gbdesign said:


> Can anyone tell me why ETC has decided to do away with physical GrandMaster faders?


I don't have an official reason from ETC, but I imagine it is to standardize the facepanel layout and eliminate one physical fader that doesn't get used often by most people.
You can make any fader (real or virtual) into a Grandmaster by using the Fader Configuration tab (tab 36). If you make a physical fader into a GM, note that you have to push BOTH buttons under the fader to activate the Blackout key function.
-Todd


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## Michael K (Nov 2, 2019)

This is one of those never ending debates. There are some people who get good use out of the GM and master fader pair, but it's also a source of innumerable support calls, to ETC and I'm sure venue managers/TDs


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## Footer (Nov 3, 2019)

Because Strand did it 20 years ago?... and pretty much every other console on the market also did away with it.


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## Jay Ashworth (Nov 3, 2019)

As is, I am sure, not uncommon, I don't need it often, but when I need it, I need it BADLY, and having to a) figure out which fader to grab and b) remember to hit both buttons is a non-starter.

I don't buy a lot of boards, and what's in their used market will serve me fine, so I don't expect to change their mind, but...


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## SteveB (Nov 3, 2019)

Jay Ashworth said:


> As is, I am sure, not uncommon, I don't need it often, but when I need it, I need it BADLY, and having to a) figure out which fader to grab and b) remember to hit both buttons is a non-starter.
> 
> I don't buy a lot of boards, and what's in their used market will serve me fine, so I don't expect to change their mind, but...



You’re only hitting both buttons if you need a blackout button push. My legacy Ions all have their BO buttons disabled as it’s about as fast to just slam the fader to zero. And I’d have to check but usually you can configure in Fader Configuration what the buttons do so I think you can set it for one of the buttons.


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## Jay Ashworth (Nov 3, 2019)

That helps a *little*, but the ballistics of the buttons on the wing are noticeably different from the Master Blackout button too, which can affect how easily I can use it for what I do...

And what do people *with no wings* do, pray tell?


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## DuckJordan (Nov 3, 2019)

Jay Ashworth said:


> That helps a *little*, but the ballistics of the buttons on the wing are noticeably different from the Master Blackout button too, which can affect how easily I can use it for what I do...
> 
> And what do people *with no wings* do, pray tell?


I'm not sure there is a console other than the original ion that doesn't come with at least a few faders. You can also assign macro buttons to do a black out.


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## danTt (Nov 3, 2019)

Jay Ashworth said:


> That helps a *little*, but the ballistics of the buttons on the wing are noticeably different from the Master Blackout button too, which can affect how easily I can use it for what I do...
> 
> And what do people *with no wings* do, pray tell?



Chances are if you are the type of person who utilizes a grandmaster, you're also using lots of other faders and as such will have a console with them. Alternatively, you can use all of the nice touch friendly soft faders on screen. 

How often do you use the blackout button?


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## SteveB (Nov 3, 2019)

Jay Ashworth said:


> That helps a *little*, but the ballistics of the buttons on the wing are noticeably different from the Master Blackout button too, which can affect how easily I can use it for what I do...
> 
> And what do people *with no wings* do, pray tell?



One of the Ion XE models has no faders, I’d want a fader wing if I purchased that model. The other desks in the Eos line have faders. 

I have mixed feelings about no GM. I can seen needing it but cannot recall the last time I used it.


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## MNicolai (Nov 3, 2019)

SteveB said:


> I have mixed feelings about no GM. I can seen needing it but cannot recall the last time I used it.



Been a few years since I threw faders busking an incandescent rig. Probably the last time I used a GM or blackout key for anything. My workflow's changed enough with LED's that I don't find myself needing a GM or blackout button.


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## JohnD (Nov 4, 2019)

As long as we are going down this rabbit hole, does anyone else miss split crossfaders?


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## BillConnerFASTC (Nov 4, 2019)

and two-scene presets? Kind of......


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## derekleffew (Nov 4, 2019)

JohnD said:


> As long as we are going down this rabbit hole, does anyone else miss split crossfaders?


As a matter of fact, No! Today's consoles have _evolved_ to the point where _every_ light, infact, _every_ parameter of _every_ light, can have its own unique time. No longer are we limited just to one time for raising intensities and one for lowering. 

Likewise re: Grand Master. Does one really desire a Fader that controls the level of every DMX value--I think not. Maybe one needs/wants an Intensity Master, but the operator can choose any fader on the desk to be that.

Go to the light Carol Anne.


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## JChenault (Nov 4, 2019)

derekleffew said:


> As a matter of fact, No! Today's consoles have _evolved_ to the point where _every_ light, infact, _every_ parameter of _every_ light, can have its own unique time. No longer are we limited just to one time for raising intensities and one for lowering.
> 
> Likewise re: Grand Master. Does one really desire a Fader that controls the level of every DMX value--I think not. Maybe one needs/wants an Intensity Master, but the operator can choose any fader on the desk to be that.
> 
> Go to the light Carol Anne.



That said ( and I do agree with Derek ) - I wish there was an easier / obvious way on modern consoles for the operator to control the overall time of a cue. I don't believe this is easy to grok on an EOS family. Not sure about other boards.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Nov 4, 2019)

JChenault said:


> obvious way on modern consoles for the operator to control the overall time of a cue



LIke the Q-File?! Motorized fade count handle - you could go faster or slower or stop and, IIRC, even go backwards in the cross fade.


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## tdrga (Nov 4, 2019)

JChenault said:


> That said ( and I do agree with Derek ) - I wish there was an easier / obvious way on modern consoles for the operator to control the overall time of a cue. I don't believe this is easy to grok on an EOS family. Not sure about other boards.


The EOS family has at least two ways on many consoles: the Rate wheel and the master split fader pair. What time control on a cue are you looking for?
-Todd


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## Jay Ashworth (Nov 4, 2019)

For the record, we've *NEVER* used our split-master; I'd rather lose that.


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## Jay Ashworth (Nov 4, 2019)

danTt said:


> Chances are if you are the type of person who utilizes a grandmaster, you're also using lots of other faders and as such will have a console with them. Alternatively, you can use all of the nice touch friendly soft faders on screen.
> 
> How often do you use the blackout button?



Randomly, when I need it.

Touch screens are at the wrong angle too.


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## Chris Pflieger (Nov 4, 2019)

I just used my GM yesterday - "We have an impromptu video - dim the lights right meow!"


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## tdrga (Nov 4, 2019)

You can also do a blackout from the keyboard: [Select Active][Out], or [Select Active] and roll the level wheel down to fade everything down. Even if you don't have faders, there are options.
-Todd


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## Footer (Nov 4, 2019)

You all realize there is a whole generation of programmers who have been brought up totally on programmer based console that have no idea why the hell you would want any of this stuff? Split faders? GM? Blackout button? All of this stuff is just holdovers from the way people used to light... we don't do that anymore. Every fader can be a cue stack. Every fader and control whatever you want. Why hold that crap over.


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## RonHebbard (Nov 4, 2019)

Footer said:


> You all realize there is a whole generation of programmers who have been brought up totally on programmer based consoles that have no idea why the hell you would want any of this stuff? Split faders? GM? Blackout button? All of this stuff is just holdovers from the way people used to light... we don't do that anymore. Every fader can be a cue stack. Every fader can control whatever you want. Why hold that crap over.


 *@Footer* Please assure *@ship* and I that gas valves and limelight are gone forever along with brine dimmers where the fly-persons relieved themselves to adjust the salinity. What about bag lines, five hundred pound sand bags and sandboxes where the theatre cats relieved themselves*?? * You wouldn't kid a geezer would you?
Toodleoo! 
Ron Hebbard


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## ship (Nov 5, 2019)

Times are a changing. Imagine how our forefather's we trained from would think about our "Progress." A panic'd call from the Stage Manager' "Stop" "Go back" not ready yet she is adding dialogue. Let's go to scene 123.5 she skipped a scene and has gone to this one. Go to scene 50, she remembered part of it... Our teachers lived with that in lever lock dimmers.


I remember years ago one of the most interesting and sad plays Ertha Kitt (Cat Woman) did as per her doing "Lady Day" a history about Billie Holiday. Both were Brilliant in talent, Ertha used to skip around a lot in the script, though each night's performance was while unique... quality art in theater and music. The above though details in control channels are just examples of almost every night challenges in unique control at the last minute. Again art was made every night by a Wonderful actress portraying one of her friends! Strayed a lot from the script.

Our job, Stage Manager, and mine - Light Board Operater to assist the talent and not question where she wanted to take the performance. Believe this even in having a "Magic Sheet" so as to bring up other lighting on need not in cue.

It is good to know all the past generation tools we had to master are obsolete now. Suspect somewhat similar to stage right 1st balconaly rail lever actuated dimmers which followed the show by cue, and could easily switch from one to another. Not as easily of course swith between cues or go back etc. But you know progress and such control means are no longer needed.

Ah' the days with the pre-Clear Com, phone operator plastic headsets - not designed for comfort... more about the ability with a booster to energize the carbon in them to hear something from back stage. Just plastic - no padding. Painful by the end of the night.


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## Scarrgo (Nov 6, 2019)

ship said:


> Ah' the days with the pre-Clear Com, phone operator plastic headsets - not designed for comfort... more about the ability with a booster to energize the carbon in them to hear something from back stage. Just plastic - no padding. Painful by the end of the night.



I remember those days well...ears on fire, and shooting pain to the touch...
I miss these things not...

Sean.......


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## RonHebbard (Nov 6, 2019)

Scarrgo said:


> I remember those days well...ears on fire, and shooting pain to the touch...
> I miss these things not...
> Sean.......



* @ship* and *@Scarrgo* Painful to wear they may have been but they had two plusses:
*1*; When your mic's sensitivity began to decline, you could unplug your headset, beat the heck out of the mic' on the closest durable surface (to loosen the compacted carbon granules) re-plug and keep on truckin'. (Despised were the individuals who improved their mic's sensitivity prior to first unplugging their headsets.)

*2*; The plugs were wired so you could plug them in either way with zero problems:
The carbon mic's were wired to the two tips and the dynamic earpieces to the two rings.
Good old Ma Bell all the way and parts*?* Parts were no problem at all, with commonly replaced items available from stock at your nearest Bell depot and less common parts always available within two weeks notice.
And then came the lads from California with their portable systems designed to assemble with commonly available microphone cables carried in depth by any worthwhile tour and then nobody who was anybody wanted to be tethered by a cable, comms HAD to be wireless, even users who sat behind a desk in a wing and / or on a chair behind their lighting or automation console _HAD_ to have a wireless headset.

Give me a break: Wireless comms, wireless mic's, wireless guitars, wireless trumpets, wireless keyboards, wireless violins, wireless tap-shoes, wireless clogs, wireless in ear monitors, wireless DMX, wireless sound and lighting remotes, wireless mice, wireless computer keyboards, wireless phones, wireless home automation systems, fridges that order your groceries, DMX controlled coffee pots, wireless, WIRELESS, *WIRELESS!*

I'll crawl back in my cave now. Rant off. Geezer out!
(What ever happened to horse drawn carts, the pony express, steam locomotives, Sherpas and divers who collected pearls and sponges without tanks, or rebreathers?)
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard


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## ship (Nov 7, 2019)

Getting ready to work with a 1924 horse drawn scenery carriage delivery theater within margine of date for horse drawn carts. "Just have to rent a fork lift for every show." Why were dock doors like 10' above the alley height in the early century frequent to thaters? Even a horse drawn wagon wouldn't be that high in problems for probably generations in conveying scenery to the stage. Certainly couldn't be about the windows or architectural height for perspective and not always used windows. Something I don't get in why so high rear of stage dock doors.

But onto the issue (but way cool history on headsets conceived and saved now in history of com gear/Clear Com future generations can pull up from presented for their own knowledge as opposed to some black holes I frequently run into on old light history.) My post was to note how it might be difficult on modern light boards which loose these features in citing an example. On the other hand, programming is different, and in citing the pre-our generation light board lever lock systems, just as they couldn't imagine our generations light boards working, perhaps it's similar. In above play, savy computer like people could even now program in trigger words from microphone for a scene to self "go", or a kid in being better on computers can handle such a situation perhaps just as well on the new different concepts for what was hard for us given a far different operation system. Starting to learn such a ting on my part.

Very rare challenge for me today... Normally I fly a desk/magnifying glass/computer in tracking bad moving light lamps or ordering parts, and supervise my cable/conventional fixture/Followspot Repair/Special Lighting Projects Fabrication for Lighting department.


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## robmerow (Nov 7, 2019)

Its hard for me to imagine a circumstance where if all goes according to plan you would ever need a GM.
Any cued show shouldn't use it. 
A well-busked show would have multiple stacks or submasters to do the same thing but with more flexibility.

MAYBE as a part of shut down procedure, but even then there may be fixtures intentionally setup to not affected by the GM for one reason or another.


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## Jay Ashworth (Nov 8, 2019)

You're assuming a "show".

Lots of what we do is "events". That's not even "busking", in the way I think you mean that.


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## danTt (Nov 8, 2019)

robmerow said:


> Its hard for me to imagine a circumstance where if all goes according to plan you would ever need a GM.
> Any cued show shouldn't use it.
> A well-busked show would have multiple stacks or submasters to do the same thing but with more flexibility.
> 
> MAYBE as a part of shut down procedure, but even then there may be fixtures intentionally setup to not affected by the GM for one reason or another.




The big "if" in your statement is "all goes according to plan".


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## SteveB (Nov 9, 2019)

robmerow said:


> Its hard for me to imagine a circumstance where if all goes according to plan you would ever need a GM.
> Any cued show shouldn't use it.
> A well-busked show would have multiple stacks or submasters to do the same thing but with more flexibility.
> 
> MAYBE as a part of shut down procedure, but even then there may be fixtures intentionally setup to not affected by the GM for one reason or another.



Amateur dance recital, dance teacher backstage realizing wrong music for piece, is now screaming “TAKE THE LIGHTS OUT, TAKE THE LIGHTS OUT, TAKETHE.....” SM calmly translates to “BLACKOUT !”. 

When you do 2 of these a weekend in June, plus 8 more rehearsals in May, the GM is a fader you cannot live without.


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## Jay Ashworth (Nov 9, 2019)

SteveB said:


> Amateur dance recital, dance teacher backstage realizing wrong music for piece, is now screaming “TAKE THE LIGHTS OUT, TAKE THE LIGHTS OUT, TAKETHE.....” SM calmly translates to “BLACKOUT !”.
> 
> When you do 2 of these a weekend in June, plus 8 more rehearsals in May, the GM is a fader you cannot live without.



And I can tell you as a UI designer, the fact that the GM is in a separate, specific, non-moving place that you don't have to look at a label for is *critical* to such uses.

Yes, Footer; I'm talkin'a you.


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## sk8rsdad (Nov 9, 2019)

If you really need a GM then set aside a bottom corner fader as GM on every page and there it is, ready to go, in the same place every time. If it's something I really, really, have to have then it's probably a button on a magic sheet, likely linked to QLab to "panic" the sound playback at the same time.

My workflow for dance rentals is to 

Get the audio in advance and drop it into QLab.
Get the choreographer's wishes about their routine along with information about the routine (group/solo/duet/trio, age/experience level, costume colour)
Grab a suitable preset from the library that has built up over the years and drop it in a cue list as a base look. Build any noted transitions.
Sort out the start sequence: Do dancers start onstage or off? Do they end on stage (pose) or off?
Link the first lighting cue to QLab to start the music on the first go.
Walk through the show with the renter, making adjustments as desired.
Sometimes I get a rehearsal, sometimes not. It doesn't matter because having worked with the dance studio on steps 1 and 2 with a sanity check at step 6 takes a lot of stress out of the event on both sides of the rental agreement. 
FWIW, I have never used the GM since retiring the last 2-scene preset analog board a couple of decades ago and don't mourn it's passing.


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## Jay Ashworth (Nov 9, 2019)

You forgot 3A:

Overwrite all of that work with the show file the LD brought in. 

Anyroad, sure, there are lots of workarounds for not having a hardware grandmaster fader. I don't *want* workarounds. I want the damn fader.


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## sk8rsdad (Nov 9, 2019)

I didn't forget it. I am the LD.


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## Jay Ashworth (Nov 9, 2019)

That's not germane to my argument, as you know.


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## DavidJones (Nov 10, 2019)

Flexibility is all the rage now. Want a GM? Great, put it wherever the hell you want it. Want a manual crossfade? Again put it where ever you want it; but why not just program that into your cues? I get that usually added features can be ignored by legacy users, like magic sheets, layouts, macros, etc, but with moving hardware that has always been there, people have to make some changes to their workflow. Have a problem with that? Well, go join the unemployment line with all the audio guys who refused to switch to digital ten years ago.

ETC- No GM
MA3- No GM 
Hell even the Hog iPC had no dedicated GM and that was like 20 years ago.

Please don't be offended by this, but "events" being unpredictable and NEEDING a GM is an excuse for not being prepared and not programing a proper show. I always focus and program a full stage wash, even if the client swears they only want a special on the lectern, I always program a "video look" even if there is no video. Always assume someone will walk up in front of the stage rather than on it to make an announcement or receive an award. Does the client insist on using ONE stack to be perfectly called by the stage manager? I always have several faders to override the cues stack for when there is a surprise award, or they invite an audience member to talk. Lighting for IMAG is assigned to inhibitive masters, especially backlight, for when that bald guy with the waxed head comes on stage, etc, etc, etc. 

You do more than a few events, and "unpredictable" become unorganized, unscripted, and out of order. I may not know when, but I can predict that some of these things will happen at some point.

----Side note, I'm just voicing my honest opinion, and I am a blunt person who does not sugar coat things. The new Grammarly "tone detector" thinks this post has an overwhelmingly disapproving tone.


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## Jay Ashworth (Nov 10, 2019)

> Please don't be offended by this, but "events" being unpredictable and NEEDING a GM is an excuse for not being prepared and not programing a proper show.

I'm not offended by it. It's simply not true.

"Programming a proper show" carries inside it the idea that *we know what's going to happen*.

That's often completely untrue, and not capable of being made true.


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## DavidJones (Nov 10, 2019)

Jay Ashworth said:


> > Please don't be offended by this, but "events" being unpredictable and NEEDING a GM is an excuse for not being prepared and not programing a proper show.
> 
> I'm not offended by it. It's simply not true.
> 
> ...



If that's that case, personally I wouldn't do those shows. I won't intentionally put myself in a position where failure is a likely outcome. That's just poor planning on someone's part and has nothing to do with equipment.


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## DavidJones (Nov 10, 2019)

As a client, if your' entire ability to successfully run my show is predicated on the existence of a permanently fixed grandmaster on a desk, then I'm looking elsewhere for an LD.


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## SteveB (Nov 10, 2019)

DavidJones said:


> Please don't be offended by this, but "events" being unpredictable and NEEDING a GM is an excuse for not being prepared and not programing a proper show. I



No excuse. Yes, of course, that’s the answer. 

Sometimes the event is performing on the margins of profit that prohibits a proper rehearsal where you can set in all the cues and do enough rehearsals to never need something as archaic as an unexpected blackout. Oh, to live in such a perfect world !. Maybe in my next life.


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## SteveB (Nov 10, 2019)

DavidJones said:


> As a client, if your' entire ability to successfully run my show is predicated on the existence of a permanently fixed grandmaster on a desk, then I'm looking elsewhere for an LD.



Remarkable coincidence. If you were the LD and didn’t understand that things go wrong and sometimes the console operator needs the tools to respond to those moments, well it would be classic question of was he fired, or did he quit ?


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## Jay Ashworth (Nov 10, 2019)

DavidJones said:


> If that's that case, personally I wouldn't do those shows. I won't intentionally put myself in a position where failure is a likely outcome. That's just poor planning on someone's part and has nothing to do with equipment.



I'm a subcontractor for a house that rents out. I don't have any choice in the matter, in the real work; events are what they are; you cover them.


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## Jay Ashworth (Nov 10, 2019)

SteveB said:


> No excuse. Yes, of course, that’s the answer.
> 
> Sometimes the event is performing on the margins of profit that prohibits a proper rehearsal where you can set in all the cues and do enough rehearsals to never need something as archaic as an unexpected blackout. Oh, to live in such a perfect world !. Maybe in my next life.



Oh, to live in a world where everything was scripted and *could be* rehearsed.


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## ChrisB_SanDiego (Nov 10, 2019)

I disabled my GM 7 years ago. Only needed it maybe 3 times since. Inhibitors and macros that fade inhibitors by fixture type, work for my live playback style. I can always control fixtures in banks with inhibitors. the primary GM just takes up too much real estate when a magic sheet button can do the same thing or target something more specific. Just my opinion.


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## SteveB (Nov 10, 2019)

DavidJones said:


> As a client, if your' entire ability to successfully run my show is predicated on the existence of a permanently fixed grandmaster on a desk, then I'm looking elsewhere for an LD.



I don’t think you’re understanding the concept that you provide the tools that *might* be necessary for the console op to make use of in the event something doesn’t go as planned. Actor skips a whole page (it’s been known to happen) and now the operator is using “Go to Cue” and “Time” buttons. Actor falls into a trap and the SM needs the lights off immediately. This has nothing to do with your LD skills in plotting a perfect show, but in the real world, crap happens and you need to adapt. If you don’t get that, find a different career.


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## ship (Nov 11, 2019)

Technology has changed. The concepts of us elders is different in controlling such a situation. Solved or Not! Interesting discussion.


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## irked (Nov 11, 2019)

SteveB said:


> I don’t think you’re understanding the concept that you provide the tools that *might* be necessary for the console op to make use of in the event something doesn’t go as planned. Actor skips a whole page (it’s been known to happen) and now the operator is using “Go to Cue” and “Time” buttons. Actor falls into a trap and the SM needs the lights off immediately. This has nothing to do with your LD skills in plotting a perfect show, but in the real world, crap happens and you need to adapt. If you don’t get that, find a different career.


Maybe I'm just slow on the uptake, but couldn't you just pull down the fader that the cued stack is running off of? I do this all the time on MA, not sure if ETC has some kind of reason not to.

Alternate approach - an inhibitor handle with everything in it is a whole lot like a grand master.


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## SteveB (Nov 11, 2019)

irked said:


> Maybe I'm just slow on the uptake, but couldn't you just pull down the fader that the cued stack is running off of? I do this all the time on MA, not sure if ETC has some kind of reason not to.
> 
> Alternate approach - an inhibitor handle with everything in it is a whole lot like a grand master.



No to the fader pair, that just sets the next cue to manual till you move the fader pair up.

As noted in prior posts, there are options to no physical GM, a fader wing with a slider set to GM or Inhibit, or a virtual fader on a touch screen.


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## RonHebbard (Nov 11, 2019)

irked said:


> Maybe I'm just slow on the uptake, but couldn't you just pull down the fader that the cued stack is running off of? I do this all the time on MA, not sure if ETC has some kind of reason not to.
> 
> Alternate approach - an inhibitor handle with everything in it is a whole lot like a grand master.


 @irked We employed EXACTLY that technique on a Strand Q file back in 1973 (it was one of only 3 in Canada at the time)
We were in the midst of hosting a 5 or 6 day film shoot (not for a local event but a few scenes for an 'A' level LA based production.)
To the point: All 80 channels were in use powering all 80 six Kw dimmers plus all 6 Non-Dims were powering things like 'high speed color wheels', old style 45 gallon heated water drum dry ice foggers:
Bottom Line: Everything was preset for the next morning's 10:00 a.m. shoot (which was to continue from exactly where last night's shoot ended.)
Department Heads were last out shortly after 1:00 a.m.
All 80 channels were pulled to zero. All six Non-Dims were switched off.
This was in the days when your security guard walked around your entire venue every hour toting one of those big old Simplex contraptions recording the precise time he visited any /all locations, inserted a special key chained to the wall, inserted it into his portable time clock and moved on to his next location.
Two theatre venue, four story lobby, time clock "keys": (only as I remember them, by no means neither an all inclusive list nor in any specific order)
Stage door entrance
Main venue entrances
Main venue box office
Multiple fire exits
Studio theatre box office.
Main venue LX booth
Studio venue LX booth
Main venue spot and projection booths (a suite of six rooms including a roof hatch fire escape door with a separate "key" to prove he'd been there.
First aid room.
FOH manager's office (to ensure the safe hadn't been 'burgled') this was in the era of all cash transactions [no cards with mag' stripes to swipe]

You've got the picture.
Imagine how startled the overnight guard was when he checked the main venue at 4 or 5 a.m. to find every lamp in the place, house lights included, at 100% plus 4 high-speed colour wheels on 8" one K leko's spinning their hearts out PLUS four 45 gallon foggers pre-loaded with dry ice spewing out fog as fast as their fans coud push it out.
I still remember the gentleman's name: Roy was approximately 66 or 67 freshly retired from his life-long employer and, to his _STARTLED_ eyes, there must've been a break in, he's alone in the building, no entrance alarms had sounded, neither had any fire alarms (smoke detectors weren't common devices in 1973)
and here was a 2183 seat theatre TOTALLY engulfed in fog with every light in the place piercing through it and four high-speed wheels spinning throuth 6 or 8 colors as fast as they could.
WHAT HAD HAPPENED: A power companie's overnight switching transient had caused only the SLIGHTEST of blinks in all of the night lights in the building
BUT it was all it took to convince the Q-File and House light control panels into powering EVERYTHING to 100%.

I realize technology has moved on APPRECIABLY since 1973.

Having said my piece; I'll crawl back into my cave.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard


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## BillConnerFASTC (Nov 11, 2019)

I think Q-file was a Kleigl product, not Strand, made by Thorn in UK.


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## RonHebbard (Nov 11, 2019)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> I think Q-file was a Kleigl product, not Strand, made by Thorn in UK.


And you would be correct. In 1973. Strand was a British company. On your side of Donnie's walls, the amalgamation was called Century Strand. On my side north of the walls the amalgamation was known as Strand Century (Canada being one of the "colonies" at the time.)
When Strand was pressured to provide full bore / cutting edge (analog wire per dimmer) memory console installations to Canada, the desk, and its associated two or three 23" (Not 19") were basically a re-badged marriage of Thorn and Strand bits 'n pieces with manuals labeled "IDM Cue" (Instant Dimmer Memory Cue")
The 100 Six KW + 6 Non-Dim x 200-ish twenty Amp and 17 fifty Amp telco-style Hard patch was totally fabricated (Punch presses, bending brakes, welders and all) In Strand Century's northern Toronto head office on Viscount Road near Toronto's Malton airport. 
In the basement: The 5 racks housing the 100 six Kw dimmers, along with a 7th rack housing the 20 house light dimmers and a 6th rack in between housing the 1,200 Amp 3 pole motorized main breaker for the stage lighting + the 400 Amp, non-motorized main breaker for the house lights. 
The actual dimmers, both stage and house, were re-badged dimmers from the U.S. division; thus Century dimmers re-badged as Century Strand while all of the metal work was totally custom fabricated and pre-wired in the same Century Strand shop on Viscount Road where the Hard-Patch was built. 
*
Bottom* *Line*: We're BOTH correct. I suspect *@Ron Foley* could confirm all of the above, I believe Mr. Foley began his career with Strand when he graduated from high-school and began working in Century Strand's fabrication shop. When I was last face to face with Mf. Foley, he was commissioning and servicing Century Strand installations from Ontario all the way east to Prince Edward Island and likely with Newfoundland tossed in for good measure. 
To tie this back to my starting point: 
I believe there were only three installations of Strand Century's IDM Cue consoles in Canada; In some order: 
The National Arts Centre in Ottawa, The Stratford Festival's main stage in Stratford and Hamilton Place in Hamilton, Ontario. 
In Hamilton's Hamilton Place, our four stories of Lobby Dimmers were another custom fabricated black rack housing a line of architectural dimmers which were nearly identical to a series of Green racks marketed with stage lighting in mind. If you whip me hard enough, I can probably name the model of the stage series dimmers; there were at least three such racks in my immediate area. 
More than you ever wanted to know about the history of Strand on our side of Donnie's walls. 
Toodleoo! 
Ron Hebbard


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## Les (Nov 12, 2019)

One positive I see coming out of this is that it will make it more difficult for board ops/production staff to flicker the lights as a means to communicate that the show is about to start. I hate that and think it looks tacky. 

Otherwise, as a community theatre TD, there are a few times when the GM is useful - for example an "on-the-fly" show where there is a video in the middle. In that case, it's really useful to have a GM to pull down. Especially when you have inexperienced board ops and it's the only "cue" in the show. I also have a board op who likes to use the GM to check to make sure that all the worklights are off prior to house opening. I could see her missing it. Otherwise, there are always workaround. All of which require punching more buttons, as usual.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Nov 13, 2019)

RonHebbard said:


> We're BOTH correct



Or both incorrect, and it's neither Strand not Kleigl, but Thorn. System integration before we knew what that is.


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## sk8rsdad (Nov 13, 2019)

@Les the GM function still exists on modern boards. What doesn't exist is a dedicated hardware location for the GM. Every fader on the console could be assigned the job.


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## SteveB (Nov 13, 2019)

RonHebbard said:


> And you would be correct. In 1973. Strand was a British company.
> Ron Hebbard



On a tangent but @ron, curious if you all up north ever saw the "next generation" of Strand computer consoles, namely Multi-Q and Micro-Q, both manufactured in the US, against the wishes of the parent UK company, if I recall. Mid 70's or so.


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## SteveB (Nov 13, 2019)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> Or both incorrect, and it's neither Strand not Kleigl, but Thorn. System integration before we knew what that is.



Q-File and Q-Level were manufactured by Thorn, sold in the US by Kliegl who branded it as a "Kliegl Q-File" (or Q-Level, the baby).


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## RonHebbard (Nov 13, 2019)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> Or both incorrect, and it's neither Strand not Kleigl, but Thorn. System integration before we knew what that is.


 I can't recall anyone ever tossing Kleigl into the mix, neither verbally nor in print; Strand Canada openly referred to the console as the Century Strand Q-file; within the accompanying manuals they explained its / their affiliation with Thorn. The manuals accompanying the dimmers were fairly vague; extremely thorough in terms of parts lists, procedures for trimming, service / maintenance concerns but sans any specific info' when it came to who manufactured them or where. 

The dimmer racks themselves were totally fabricated in Strand's Canadian head office / shops, AND proudly indelibly labelled as such. 
The racks were designed, manufactured and wired specifically to contain, support, power and ventilate the 100 six KW "works in a drawer" slip in modules. 
The non-specifically identified dimmer modules slid into their CLEARLY identified Century Strand Canada racks. 
Them's my memories and I stands behind them. 
Enjoy your winter south of Donnie's walls. 
Toodleoo! 
Ron Hebbard


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## RonHebbard (Nov 13, 2019)

SteveB said:


> On a tangent but @ron, curious if you all up north ever saw the "next generation" of Strand computer consoles, namely Multi-Q and Micro-Q, both manufactured in the US, against the wishes of the parent UK company, if I recall. Mid 70's or so.


 *@SteveB* Most definitely YES but not many of them. A member [Nigel Romeril] of my home local (IA 129) toured for years as the head electrician with Canada's national ballet ( NBC, the National Ballet of Canada if you prefer their OFFICIAL title ) When Nigel first signed on with the National, they were still lugging piano boards and / or a ramshackle collection of dimmers from various rental houses. Within 2 to 3 years, Century Strand Canada were PROUDLY telling the world that they STRAND (in big print in many publications) had just completed the sale of their new, bleeding edge, Multi-Q (I believe it was, [one or the other] )
The next time the National toured through Hamilton, all who were interested were haranguing Nigel to: See his new toy, understand how it worked, what it did / could do, yada, yada, you've got the picture. I'd better not call @Ron Foley 's attention to this (Ron Hebbard says with his tongue firmly in his cheek).
Nigel initially found it difficult to cajole the new board to deliver the quality / smoothness / low level performance of their old Piano boards / Resistance dimmers and then; once finagled and finessed, it was purportedly difficult / finicky / persnickety to maintain stability / reliable / repeatable performance in a touring (out of a warm theatre, into a frigid cold trailer, bumped from province to province in the dead of winter, into a warm theatre, then expected to perform flawlessly.) application.

I recall Nigel handling it with Kidd gloves, rolling it directly into a star dressing room where it could warm up with _ZERO_ risks of anyone rolling a case into it, hitting it with an incoming fly pipe, setting their coffee on it, yada, yada. Tom Taylor was our head electrician and it was a BIG DEAL to take Tom into the star room to "see" Nigel's new toy but touching or powering it was still out of the question until:
a; It had acclimatized.
b; It had been gingerly carried from the nearby Star room and gently placed on a rolling case that was to serve as Nigel's home base for their two or three day stay.
Once it was in location, powered, and Nige' was ready to take his chances, Nigel himself was the only one allowed to run up channels while the LD called her / his focus.
Bottom Line: It may have been promoted as "bleeding edge" but it was definitely being treated akin to platinum, afforded the full wank Royal treatment and most of the bleeding edge blood lost was Nigel's WHEN, not if, it exhibited any manner of fault / flaw / instability / intermittent / non-repeatable performance.
Have I 'strayed' within the boundaries of politeness? (Have I conveyed "it was a piece of excrement" without saying it was a pile of steaming manure?
Oh; I'd better hope *@Ron Foley* never stumbles across this post by accident.
More than enough said: * @SteveB* Have I adequately answered your query? [If we ever meet: Ask me how I really feel.]
*P.S.* This would've been 1974 / 5; mid seventies as you mentioned.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard


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## Jay Ashworth (Nov 13, 2019)

Ron: I've never heard it be anything except Strand Century.

Everyone else: making a random operator *search for the GM fader* *in a situation where they need a GM fader* violates the Principle of Least Astonishment with the highest degree of thoroughness I believe I've ever seen in 35 years of systems analysis.

It's almost never a Planned Fade control.

It's an Oh crap handle.


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## Les (Nov 13, 2019)

sk8rsdad said:


> @Les the GM function still exists on modern boards. What doesn't exist is a dedicated hardware location for the GM. Every fader on the console could be assigned the job.



Yeah, it just means more prep. 

(I may or may not still be bitter about how hard it is to busk with LEDs and taking it out on the GM).


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## chausman (Nov 14, 2019)

Personally, I never have events where a blackout from a GM is ever really a good response. I'd much rather have a panic button on a magic sheet that triggered a controlled fade to a decent look on stage. And for ease of training or quick action, you could very easily use the contact closure inputs, a cable with a DB15 connector, a decent inexpensive pushbutton, and an enclosure to create a very easy to use physical panic button. It's inexpensive, and infinitely more flexible than just fading everything out. And since there are 4 inputs, you can actually have up to 4 different actions with different pushbuttons.


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## RonHebbard (Nov 14, 2019)

Les said:


> Yeah, it just means more prep.
> 
> (I may or may not still be bitter about how hard it is to busk with LEDs and taking it out on the GM).


 *@Les* Tell us how your REALLY feel; LED's = Lousy Effin' Devices. RGB's = Really Gross Bulbs, is that what you're saying*? * 
O.K. *@derekleffew* I'll say it for you: Bulbs go in the ground LAMPS have Bases and insert in SOCKETS. Socket toomie and let's press on. 
Toodleoo! 
Ron (from north of Donnie's walls) Hebbard


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## Les (Nov 14, 2019)

chausman said:


> Personally, I never have events where a blackout from a GM is ever really a good response.



The kind of event I'm talking about, while rare, is the type where we have the mayor or someone like that speaking before the show. Maybe they want to show a quick video, and this is the only night it's happening. The cue stack is set, the LD has left the building, etc etc. I can program a cue, but then I need to remember to delete it later. Oh and we just found out this afternoon . It's super easy to simply tell the board op to duck the GM during this video. And it doesn't require training, which is great, because I'm busy setting up the D&^^N projector and running the video.

It's not a huge issue (and I'll admit to being overdramatic), but it is losing one more tool that very occasionally makes life a little easier.


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## SteveB (Nov 14, 2019)

Les said:


> The kind of event I'm talking about, while rare, is the type where we have the mayor or someone like that speaking before the show. Maybe they want to show a quick video, and this is the only night it's happening. The cue stack is set, the LD has left the building, etc etc. I can program a cue, but then I need to remember to delete it later. Oh and we just found out this afternoon . It's super easy to simply tell the board op to duck the GM during this video. And it doesn't require training, which is great, because I'm busy setting up the D&^^N projector and running the video.
> 
> It's not a huge issue (and I'll admit to being overdramatic), but it is losing one more tool that very occasionally makes life a little easier.



Of the 4 different consoles in the Eos line (not Element), there’s the Eos Ti, Gio, Gio @5, Ion XE with faders and Ion XE without. The first 4, having faders, are super easy to have a fader set as a GM. On the no fader Ion, I’d bet 90% of the time it’s going to have a fader wing sitting next to it. 

If you work a space that has events that are occasionally less than well planned out, it’s really very easy to configure a GM. I’m reasonably certain that this is what the thinking was at ETC when they went this route.


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## DavidJones (Nov 18, 2019)

So... What I'm hearing from Steve and Jay is that they are so angry about having no dedicated grandmaster, that they will both refuse to assign it to somewhere else on the board, even though they know there is a good possibility that they will need it, and the show will probably be ruined because of this. Guys, please PM me your resumes; those are some winning attitudes right there.


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## SteveB (Nov 18, 2019)

DavidJones said:


> So... What I'm hearing from Steve and Jay is that they are so angry about having no dedicated grandmaster, that they will both refuse to assign it to somewhere else on the board, even though they know there is a good possibility that they will need it, and the show will probably be ruined because of this. Guys, please PM me your resumes; those are some winning attitudes right there.



David, Trying not to get confrontational on this but here's a statement you made that is offensive;

"Please don't be offended by this, but "events" being unpredictable and NEEDING a GM is an excuse for not being prepared and not programing a proper show " 

Jay and I have both indicated in numerous posts that the situations we find ourselves in as professionals (43 year in my case) sometimes requires a GM be available and it has nothing to do with being prepared and is not about adequately programming. We just sometimes aren't give the time for either, yet apply every bit of our skills to making an event as perfect a possible. 

My statement on my last post was seemingly missed, as I stated "super easy to have a fader set as a GM". I've no real concern either way as I've 6 Ions that all have GM's and I was perfectly happy to move to a Gio @5 that didn't. I knew it had 5 faders and I could set up one as GM and/or use one of the countless fader wings I've got around. 

I recall one event that I lit was Ray Charles and he told me it was "TOO BRIGHT" (this is the truth). Rather than fix a gazillion cues I dropped the GM and left it there the rest of the show. I stopped updating my resume after that as I realized my career was toast, so have nothing to send you.


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## Jay Ashworth (Nov 18, 2019)

DavidJones said:


> So... What I'm hearing from Steve and Jay is that they are so angry about having no dedicated grandmaster, that they will both refuse to assign it to somewhere else on the board, even though they know there is a good possibility that they will need it, and the show will probably be ruined because of this. Guys, please PM me your resumes; those are some winning attitudes right there.



What SteveB said, and also, no, David, that's *not* what I said; please dont mischaracterize my points.

What I *said* was that being able to assign the GM to a random, installation-dependent fader on a wing (if you have one) solves only one of the 3 or 4 problems solved by haveing a dedicated GM in a fixed spot on the main facepanel.

This is a question of UI design, and it's separate from whether you need the damn fader in the first place; that's a red herring in this part of the conversation -- we've already taken as read that that answer is "yes" by the time we get here.

Any other of my points you'd like to mischaracterize?


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## Jay Ashworth (Nov 18, 2019)

And does anyone think it's just vastly amusing that this is the most acrimonious thread we've had here all year?


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## DavidJones (Nov 18, 2019)

Everyone on this thread is now on "my list."


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## MNicolai (Nov 18, 2019)

There's still time before the New Year to get in one last "11 WAYS YOU COULD BE LABELING AND SORTING GEL BETTER" thread before an entire wave of college students have no idea what gel is and next year's rehash becomes "12 WAYS..." where the twelfth way is sorting gel into the nearest recycle bin.


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## Jay Ashworth (Nov 18, 2019)

DavidJones said:


> Everyone on this thread is now on "my list."


Ohmighod; I don't know what I'll do!!


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## ElGusto (Nov 20, 2019)

This might be a little unpopular but the Blackout and GM have always seemed to be such heavy-handed ways to do that. If I need to dark in a panic, theres always [select active][out] or [selective active] @ 0 [Sneak]. But if we are talking faders, the manual time fader is my favorite thing these days.


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## Les (Nov 20, 2019)

Unfortunately, sometimes things just need to be ID10-T proof.


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## Jay Ashworth (Nov 20, 2019)

And I've gotten my comeuppance, David will be happy to hear.

Our new board's an XE.


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