# What does a theatre cost to build these days?



## Jay Ashworth

[ Yes, I know; this is effectively an impossible question to answer in the large, but I'm gonna ask it anyway; surely some useful discussion will come of it. ]

Has anyone built a standalone small theatre lately, from scratch? 175-250 seat proscenium. Fly loft. Cyc, 3 electrics, and a catwalk FOH bridge in a useful place. Ion. x32. S4 with LED wash. Maybe a few low-end theatrical movers (VLX440 class). Decent wings. Scene shop space. Dressing rooms. ADA compliant. Floor level booths at the top of rake. ]

What's that cost, exclusive of land? Architecture, design, build, equip.

Half a mil? A million? 2? 3? 5? ... 10?

I have a feeling "equip" costs as much as the rest...

(Yes, I know; this is something that people charge lots of money just to figure out, but surely a few folks can hip-shoot it to the nearest zero.


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## sk8rsdad

Exclusive of architecture kind of blows the whole question up. It's the architectural details that determine the cost. The equipment costs may be the least significant piece; certainly the most variable.

20 years ago we built a 350 seat proscenium theatre with no fly gallery for $1.6M including the parking lot and traffic light, exclusive of land. At 250 seats, having a fly gallery may not be worthwhile. The seating capacity is too low for most of the touring shows that you might want to attract to offset the cost of the building steel, regulatory compliance, and line sets. It also changes your operating model. You may be better off with a wire mesh grid system or some combination of motorized and dead-hung rigging.

ADA is a can of worms that depends on the design and the AHJ. Depending on interpretation it could mean having to provide motorized scooter access to the FOH bridge. Really hard to wet finger estimate.


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## Footer

I don't know of any that size that weren't built along with a larger project such as a community arts center. I would think you will be looking at least at 1.5. I know of no commercial properties that go up for less that the public is supposed to come to. Of course local labor rates and material costs are going to be a major factor. For a house that small you are most likely going to be looking at a converted space of some kind. The local regional theatre chose an old grocery store to put their 250 seat proscenium theater into. 

Minus the grid the production facilities are really a drop in the bucket compared to parking lots, HVAC, fixtures, and other infrastructure. One of the big problems in building theatres is you need a lot of infrastructure that is only used a few hours a day or week. Thats why it is usually smart to share that infrastructure with other things like art galleries, dance studios, retail space, sporting complexes, etc. Rarely if ever do you build just a theater in a open field.


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## Jay Ashworth

I did say "exclusive of land", full stop; ie: all these other things but not land. 

And, yes, while I want motorized battens, I probably don't need a full fly loft.


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## RonHebbard

Jay Ashworth said:


> [ Yes, I know; this is effectively an impossible question to answer in the large, but I'm gonna ask it anyway; surely some useful discussion will come of it. ]
> 
> Has anyone built a standalone small theatre lately, from scratch? 175-250 seat proscenium. Fly loft. Cyc, 3 electrics, and a catwalk FOH bridge in a useful place. Ion. x32. S4 with LED wash. Maybe a few low-end theatrical movers (VLX440 class). Decent wings. Scene shop space. Dressing rooms. ADA compliant. Floor level booths at the top of rake. ]
> 
> What's that cost, exclusive of land? Architecture, design, build, equip.
> 
> Half a mil? A million? 2? 3? 5? ... 10?
> 
> I have a feeling "equip" costs as much as the rest...
> 
> (Yes, I know; this is something that people charge lots of money just to figure out, but surely a few folks can hip-shoot it to the nearest zero.


For a cost comparison, in 1973 it cost $10.8 million to build Hamilton Place. The Great Hall originally sat 2,183 patrons on two balconies plus a main floor. The lobbies had bars on four levels. There was also a secondary studio space and five meeting rooms; two larger and three smaller. The main stage opened with 80 six KW dimmers, rack space for 100 and a Strand IDM-Cue memory board. The main space included two hydraulic pit lifts including four rows of removable seating on each lift. The main stage was fully trappable. The main stage grid's 63 line sets cleared 68'. There was also a fairly extensive shop space in the basement with a freight elevator and a great deal of basement storage. Emergency power was supplied by a V-12 diesel which also backed up the lobby bar's ice machine much to the delight of the house manager. The studio space opened with a two scene preset and 20 three point six KW dimmers. The studio space had flexible seating for about 250 patrons and was extremely labor intensive to convert from arrangement to arrangement. The studio space had a balcony on all four sides with non-fixed seating and extensive, criss-crossed catwalks overhead. You could hang lights anywhere with ease. 
Hamilton Place, both the Great Hall and the Studio, were built as road houses rather than producing theatres.
Eighteen years later, in the same city, it cost $10.3 million to build Theatre Aquarius, a much smaller producing theatre with carpentry, welding, painting, props and costume shops and storage. Main stage seating was approximately 750 seats with two overhead FOH coves, six box booms, a prosc boom on each side, forty something line sets, a flown central cluster which could fly out of sight for straight plays. Lighting was an LP90 driving four CD80 racks via AMX-192. Most of the dimmers were 2.4 KW's with a handful of 6 Kw's.
Twenty years later in 2011 it cost well over $40 million to build a far less well equipped road house space in nearby Burlington, Ontario. All buildings were new, from the foundations up, construction. Costs were steadily rising from the standpoint of what you got for your money.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.


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## Craig Hauber

RonHebbard said:


> For a cost comparison, in 1973 it cost $10.8 million to build Hamilton Place. The Great Hall originally sat 2,183 patrons on two balconies plus a main floor. The lobbies had bars on four levels. There was also a secondary studio space and five meeting rooms; two larger and three smaller. The main stage opened with 80 six KW dimmers, rack space for 100 and a Strand IDM-Cue memory board. The main space included two hydraulic pit lifts including four rows of removable seating on each lift. The main stage was fully trappable. The main stage grid's 63 line sets cleared 68'. There was also a fairly extensive shop space in the basement with a freight elevator and a great deal of basement storage. Emergency power was supplied by a V-12 diesel which also backed up the lobby bar's ice machine much to the delight of the house manager. The studio space opened with a two scene preset and 20 three point six KW dimmers. The studio space had flexible seating for about 250 patrons and was extremely labor intensive to convert from arrangement to arrangement. The studio space had a balcony on all four sides with non-fixed seating and extensive, criss-crossed catwalks overhead. You could hang lights anywhere with ease.
> Hamilton Place, both the Great Hall and the Studio, were built as road houses rather than producing theatres.
> Eighteen years later, in the same city, it cost $10.3 million to build Theatre Aquarius, a much smaller producing theatre with carpentry, welding, painting, props and costume shops and storage. Main stage seating was approximately 750 seats with two overhead FOH coves, six box booms, a prosc boom on each side, forty something line sets, a flown central cluster which could fly out of sight for straight plays. Lighting was an LP90 driving four CD80 racks via AMX-192. Most of the dimmers were 2.4 KW's with a handful of 6 Kw's.
> Twenty years later in 2011 it cost well over $40 million to build a far less well equipped road house space in nearby Burlington, Ontario. All buildings were new, from the foundations up, construction. Costs were steadily rising from the standpoint of what you got for your money.
> Toodleoo!
> Ron Hebbard.


Also keep in mind local economic conditions. Out here on the prairie during an oil boom, the same commercial project bids came in with over 45% difference when re-bid a year later due to the contracting firms now being starving for work.
This same project also would have been 3X more in Southern California.
It also really depends on your architecture too. I can get you a 6000sq ft slab-on-grade insulated pole-barn style metal sided building for less than $100k. Same size sq.ft. but with steel framed stage house, raked floors and proper foundations starts pushing towards $1mil.
Also consider just your electrical service can vary by over $100k itself (without even counting any fixtures) depending on if you can go with a single-phase 200A residential service or a 1200A pad-transformer and switchgear system. Same goes for plumbing, HVAC and other mechanical.
So there's no possible way to accurately even begin to answer your question without a set of bid plans (and those alone can run $50k!). 
One place it couldn't hurt to ask around are church groups and their tech forums -they are always involved in building projects of that size and type nationwide.


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## Jay Ashworth

An excellent thought that had escaped me, Craig; thanks.


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## BillConnerFASTC

Frequent question for me - what does a theatre cost. At the (very) low end, I designed a project for a state park in Mississippi. Almost 600 seats, good sized stage but dead hung soft goods, some tracks for scenery, and catwalks over the stage for lighting. Very functional place and on the rare occasions I meet someone that has seen or used it, it gets good reviews - for function. It is based around a butler building, and luckily was covered in kudzu within a few years. $2.1m when built, I estimate $3.4m today. (Total project cost - construction, equipment, fees - except land.) The theatre systems and equipment - lighting, rigging sound, and seats - about half the cost. 

Using that as a model did one few years later for a private school in Jackson MS - 465 seats - custom structure versus pre-engineered building - $3.1m then, $5m today.

These are both low, but the private school loves theirs and I have heard good things from the few outsiders that have used it. I didn't cave into emaciated systems on either of these. IIRC both are two rack systems with over 100 focusing units and good sound systems, pleasant seats, high quality curtains and tracks, good stage floors, etc. Adding a rigged stage, manual counterweight, to either of these would probably add $1 to 1.5m today.

To build a workable, functional theatre, with equipment and systems that wouldn't make us all here - at CB - run away, on a very slim budget like the above, requires starting from scratch with that in mind. It takes a building system like pre-engineered or precast concrete, and every choice optimized to work within the natural constraints of those system choices. No room for whimsy or digging in heels.

Now, if I had the choice, I'd say your project is $15-18m, and have some fun. Naw, let's ask for $20m.


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## RonHebbard

sk8rsdad said:


> Exclusive of architecture kind of blows the whole question up. It's the architectural details that determine the cost. The equipment costs may be the least significant piece; certainly the most variable.
> 
> 20 years ago we built a 350 seat proscenium theatre with no fly gallery for $1.6M including the parking lot and traffic light, exclusive of land. At 250 seats, having a fly gallery may not be worthwhile. The seating capacity is too low for most of the touring shows that you might want to attract to offset the cost of the building steel, regulatory compliance, and line sets. It also changes your operating model. You may be better off with a wire mesh grid system or some combination of motorized and dead-hung rigging.
> 
> ADA is a can of worms that depends on the design and the AHJ. Depending on interpretation it could mean having to provide motorized scooter access to the FOH bridge. Really hard to wet finger estimate.


I'm waiting for someone to mandate ADA access to the loading floors.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.


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## RonHebbard

BillConnerFASTC said:


> Frequent question for me - what does a theatre cost. At the (very) low end, I designed a project for a state park in Mississippi. Almost 600 seats, good sized stage but dead hung soft goods, some tracks for scenery, and catwalks over the stage for lighting. Very functional place and on the rare occasions I meet someone that has seen or used it, it gets good reviews - for function. It is based around a butler building, and luckily was covered in kudzu within a few years. $2.1m when built, I estimate $3.4m today. (Total project cost - construction, equipment, fees - except land.) The theatre systems and equipment - lighting, rigging sound, and seats - about half the cost.
> 
> Using that as a model did one few years later for a private school in Jackson MS - 465 seats - custom structure versus pre-engineered building - $3.1m then, $5m today.
> 
> These are both low, but the private school loves theirs and I have heard good things from the few outsiders that have used it. I didn't cave into emaciated systems on either of these. IIRC both are two rack systems with over 100 focusing units and good sound systems, pleasant seats, high quality curtains and tracks, good stage floors, etc. Adding a rigged stage, manual counterweight, to either of these would probably add $1 to 1.5m today.
> 
> To build a workable, functional theatre, with equipment and systems that wouldn't make us all here - at CB - run away, on a very slim budget like the above, requires starting from scratch with that in mind. It takes a building system like pre-engineered or precast concrete, and every choice optimized to work within the natural constraints of those system choices. No room for whimsy or digging in heels.
> 
> Now, if I had the choice, I'd say your project is $15-18m, and have some fun. Naw, let's ask for $20m.


When the last theatre was built in our area, a lot of items were listed as options to be costed separately for possible inclusion. Amongst the extras were Spira-lift orchestra lifts, a freight elevator, a Meyer LCR + delays and subs reinforcement system and a few other items I can't recall. When it went to tender, it was a bad time for contractors and generals alike and, with everyone low-balling to get the work, it came in so far under budget, even with all of the extras included, we got everything we wanted and then added a few more items to bring things up to our anticipated budget. The only thing we didn't get was counter-balancing chains on all of the line-sets. Overall, it ended up a very bad deal. It was an unhappy site to work on and you don't want to inherit a theatre built by a bunch of guys who'd low-balled their bids and then ended up getting the job. There were so many trades where the work was really shoddy with a number of aspects never being completed to anyone's satisfaction, let alone to passing codes. I'm afraid I've said too much already. It was also built as a non-union project in a strong union town. There were places that were supposed to be metal studs plus two layers of 5/8" fire rated drywall behind a fabric finish. Some of us were forced to support our back boxes and connector plates from the metal studs as the dry-waller was omitting both layers of the drywall and applying his finished fabric directly over the metal studs.
I've typed far too much already. I've never seen such shoddy workmanship, and once it started, it spread with all trades jumping on board. It was tough going to work to spend a day doing things you couldn't be proud of and in a less than tradesman-like way. 
Who typed this? Nope! Couldn't have been me!!
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.


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## gafftaper

My Theater is a 415 seat proscenium, two catwalks over the house, Fly space with 25 line sets, 4 motorized electrics, 3 flying acoustic shells, small shop, and greenroom. The pit is far to small to put more than about a 6 or 8 piece band in it and it's only one step down from the floor so it doesn't help at all with acoustic isolation of the band. It came fully equipped with infrastructure for lights and sound but very little gear. Built 5 years ago as part of a new school, I'm told the theater added about 4.5 million to the cost of the school.... I wish they would have spent 5.


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## RonHebbard

gafftaper said:


> My Theater is a 415 seat proscenium, two catwalks over the house, Fly space with 25 line sets, 4 motorized electrics, 3 flying acoustic shells, small shop, and greenroom. The pit is far to small to put more than about a 6 or 8 piece band in it and it's only one step down from the floor so it doesn't help at all with acoustic isolation of the band. It came fully equipped with infrastructure for lights and sound but very little gear. Built 5 years ago as part of a new school, I'm told the theater added about 4.5 million to the cost of the school.... I wish they would have spent 5.


Some people are never happy. One of my theories is when building from scratch; lay in every lick of conduit you can imagine as it will never be cheaper to install. Conduits tied down to re-bar to keep them from floating and moving about don't have to have pretty, 90 degree bends and straps near every box, can route directly point to point by the shortest route and will NEVER be cheaper to install from a labor point of view. If you manage to get ALL of your conduits installed and still have budget, pull in your wiring. Again, it will never be cheaper to buy your wiring and have it pulled in. When you're purchasing and installing 100,000 feet of Belden 8451, or equivalent, that extra 5,000 feet will never cost less. If I'm pulling 12 runs through a conduit or 15, your labor costs for the pull are pretty much the same. Adding fancy, custom engraved, connector plates with connectors and crimping or soldering cost money and can be added years later if all of your conduits and back boxes were installed during initial construction. Theatres are only generating revenue when bums are in seats. Nobody wants to close their theatre for a few weeks to remove seats and carpeting to open up a floor slab and lay in pipe for a production table or add a few more cables to an existing floor box. It's never cheaper / more affordable to come back later. NEVER.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.


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## BillConnerFASTC

If your project is a "public school" theatre, I'm not big on spending much at all for major equipment adds in the future because it's very much a now or never funding system. You can pass a bond issue for many many millions if you include things for everyone. Try to get a few hundred thousand for a system and its nearly impossible.

The opposite end of that is the worship building. They can't always raise all the money up front but they have great cash flow, so adding or replacing systems and equipment is much more common.

Everything else is in between it seems.


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## BillConnerFASTC

It must be catching. Two calls from architects today asking this very question.


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## RonHebbard

BillConnerFASTC said:


> It must be catching. Two calls from architects today asking this very question.


One of my favorite lines from a general contractor who'd never built a theatre before: "After all, it's just a building with a large, empty, hole in the middle. How hard can it be?" And from the opposite end of the experienced general scale. "I've built my first and last theatre." 
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.


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## SteveB

RonHebbard said:


> One of my favorite lines from a general contractor who'd never built a theatre before: "After all, it's just a building with a large, empty, hole in the middle. How hard can it be?" And from the opposite end of the experienced general scale. "I've built my first and last theatre."
> Toodleoo!
> Ron Hebbard.



In a conversation with our new theatre and support building general contractor, he tells me "I can't believe how complicated this building is !" 

Maybe why it was supposed to open 2 years ago.


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## RonHebbard

SteveB said:


> In a conversation with our new theatre and support building general contractor, he tells me "I can't believe how complicated this building is !"
> 
> Maybe why it was supposed to open 2 years ago.


Even the little details like systems to keep water in all of the washroom traps from evaporating during rehearsal periods between productions when the lobby washrooms are not being flushed regularly and sewer gasses begin coming up through the traps that had evaporated. So many little details. Plumbing drains in dressing rooms have similar problems when you do a 'two-hander' and all of the other dressing rooms further away from the stage begin stinking like raw sewage. Ask me why I remember this. I inherited one theatre where this little detail escaped the architect's attention and the senior dresser used to carry a T-kettle of cold water around with her every couple of nights adding water to floor drain traps where there wasn't a handy tap nearby. Sinks were easier, they always had taps attached. The next theatre construction project I worked on I looked to see if this was going to become someone else's problem and I was amazed to see a; that it was being dealt with and b; how simply it was handled. Some architects, and mechanical engineers, have built theatres before but not all of them.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.


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## StradivariusBone

RonHebbard said:


> Even the little details like systems to keep water in all of the washroom traps from evaporating during rehearsal periods between productions when the lobby washrooms are not being flushed regularly and sewer gasses begin coming up through the traps that had evaporated.



My "office" is in what was originally purposed as a water heater closet and laundry room, complete with two floor drains. About every other month or so I find myself dumping a gallon of water down the drain to stop the poo smell.


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## RonHebbard

StradivariusBone said:


> My "office" is in what was originally purposed as a water heater closet and laundry room, complete with two floor drains. About every other month or so I find myself dumping a gallon of water down the drain to stop the poo smell.


Theatre Aquarius in Hamilton, Ontario had the same problems in the lobby and dressing room washrooms and corridor areas. It was either Toronto's Four Season's Opera and Ballet Centre OR Burlington, Ontario's PAC where I noticed the architects and/or mechanical engineers had included systems to ensure all floor drain traps always had just the slightest trickles of water flowing through them. It may have been Burlington's theatre which was the first 'green' construction project I worked on.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.


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## Jay Ashworth

BillConnerFASTC said:


> It must be catching. Two calls from architects today asking this very question.


I'm just that good, Bill.


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## RonHebbard

StradivariusBone said:


> My "office" is in what was originally purposed as a water heater closet and laundry room, complete with two floor drains. About every other month or so I find myself dumping a gallon of water down the drain to stop the poo smell.


When I wrote that, I wondered if anyone would relate to it. Thank you.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.


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## RonHebbard

BillConnerFASTC said:


> Frequent question for me - what does a theatre cost. At the (very) low end, I designed a project for a state park in Mississippi. Almost 600 seats, good sized stage but dead hung soft goods, some tracks for scenery, and catwalks over the stage for lighting. Very functional place and on the rare occasions I meet someone that has seen or used it, it gets good reviews - for function. It is based around a butler building, and luckily was covered in kudzu within a few years. $2.1m when built, I estimate $3.4m today. (Total project cost - construction, equipment, fees - except land.) The theatre systems and equipment - lighting, rigging sound, and seats - about half the cost.
> 
> Using that as a model did one few years later for a private school in Jackson MS - 465 seats - custom structure versus pre-engineered building - $3.1m then, $5m today.
> 
> These are both low, but the private school loves theirs and I have heard good things from the few outsiders that have used it. I didn't cave into emaciated systems on either of these. IIRC both are two rack systems with over 100 focusing units and good sound systems, pleasant seats, high quality curtains and tracks, good stage floors, etc. Adding a rigged stage, manual counterweight, to either of these would probably add $1 to 1.5m today.
> 
> To build a workable, functional theatre, with equipment and systems that wouldn't make us all here - at CB - run away, on a very slim budget like the above, requires starting from scratch with that in mind. It takes a building system like pre-engineered or precast concrete, and every choice optimized to work within the natural constraints of those system choices. No room for whimsy or digging in heels.
> 
> Now, if I had the choice, I'd say your project is $15-18m, and have some fun. Naw, let's ask for $20m.




BillConnerFASTC said:


> It must be catching. Two calls from architects today asking this very question.




BillConnerFASTC said:


> It must be catching. Two calls from architects today asking this very question.




BillConnerFASTC said:


> It must be catching. Two calls from architects today asking this very question.




RonHebbard said:


> When I wrote that, I wondered if anyone would relate to it. Thank you.
> Toodleoo!
> Ron Hebbard.


In the U.S., do you have to build all of your buildings to LEEDS Gold standards?
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.


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## BillConnerFASTC

No. It's an owner decision, and varies widely. Some governments legislate for all their buildings, maybe some level not necessarily gold, some try to avoid it. It actually has very little impact on the auditorium and stage, with the exception of stage floor paint. What I like to use doesn't quite meet the VOC levels. (I usually get it based on explaining the need to repaint much more frequently if an acceptable paint is used, defeating the purpose. Once resorted to having floor panels pre-painted.)


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## RonHebbard

BillConnerFASTC said:


> No. It's an owner decision, and varies widely. Some governments legislate for all their buildings, maybe some level not necessarily gold, some try to avoid it. It actually has very little impact on the auditorium and stage, with the exception of stage floor paint. What I like to use doesn't quite meet the VOC levels. (I usually get it based on explaining the need to repaint much more frequently if an acceptable paint is used, defeating the purpose. Once resorted to having floor panels pre-painted.)


LEED's certification is what lead to systems to keep floor traps wet in our area.
In the case of the last theatre I built, they used electrical timers controlling small solenoid valves to inject cold water into the traps. There was fairly clever piping employed to ensure a single solenoid would disperse water equally to all of the traps in a given area: One solenoid valve backstage and another for the seven washrooms in the lobby.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.


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## BillConnerFASTC

Trap primers, or properly trap seal primers, have been around for a long time. They have been required by code for some traps long before LEED, so I'm not sure what has changed in theatres you've built.

To Strad - pour some mineral oil into the drains next time you refill with water. The idea is to "float" the oil and prevent evaporation of the trap seal (the water). I had a servant's toilet in the basement long unused. Every 2-4 months I'd smell sewer gas and have to carry a bucket of water down to it. Then I heard about the mineral oil and tried that. Lasted years until I started to remodel basement (I got the toilet out and coal bin sides out; maybe someday I'll finish it. I do have nice drawings for it.)


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## venuetech

StradivariusBone said:


> My "office" is in what was originally purposed as a water heater closet and laundry room, complete with two floor drains. About every other month or so I find myself dumping a gallon of water down the drain to stop the poo smell.



Add a bit of mineral or vegetable oil (after the water) to each floor drain to slow the evaporation.


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## BillConnerFASTC

venuetech said:


> Add a bit of mineral or vegetable oil (after the water) to each floor drain to slow the evaporation.


That's a terrific idea.


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## firewater88

Our stand alone 1221 seat theatre with full fly, 41 line sets, orchestra shell, motorized pit, shop, 2 rehearsal/meeting rooms, full lobby, artist studio, production office, 12x12 recording booth, yada, yada, yada cost 13 million 12 years ago. All money was thrown at the building, anything that can be upgraded later was mostly out (and really still is... ). We were also the first stand alone theatre of its kind to be LEED certified, 26 points silver in fact. Have had several other places fly in just to see the place and see how we run it. Have a very unique HVAC system in the theatre itself. Energy efficient and very quiet. www.fhfineartscenter.com


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## Jay Ashworth

So: "Between $4M and 25M".

Got it.


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