# Table saw for tech theater class?



## dpak (Dec 25, 2015)

I teach high school theater, including a tech theater class which builds all of the sets for our shows. One of the problems I’ve come across is cutting 8x4 sheets of wood. Currently I have the students clamp a 2x4 across the sheet to act as a guide so they can cut a straight line with a circular saw, but that doesn’t always work. I’m considering buying a table saw, but I’m concerned about the safety. We also have mitre saws, jig saws and reciprocating saws, and those have handled everything else we’ve needed to do (and in four years, I’ve never had a student injure themselves with a saw, knock on wood!).

Looking at Home Depot, we could get a decent table saw for $300 - $500, but I don’t want to spend that much on something that I wouldn’t feel comfortable letting the students use. Any suggestions on what to look for in a table saw (or better ways to cut straight lines?)


----------



## gafftapegreenia (Dec 25, 2015)

With students, either get a Sawstop saw, or a track saw. One needn't buy the Festool track saw (as nice as it is) as DeWalt and Grizzly make very serviceable models. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## BillConnerFASTC (Dec 25, 2015)

I'm no longer supervising students using power tools - like not since 1982 - but I have to think a Sawstop is the best answer today with a lot the ball bearing saw stands. A panel saw would be convenient for sheet material only.


----------



## dpak (Dec 25, 2015)

The Sawstop looks great, but it's out of the price range. I wasn't aware of track saws, but they look like they're just what I'm looking for - easy to use and hard to mess up. Thank you both for the suggestions!


----------



## BSchend (Dec 26, 2015)

Anything short of a SawStop quality level table saw won't last with kids. Things will break too fast, plus the safety features (while still good) aren't at the same level.

I'd personally recommend a panel saw if you can get (or make) one if you are just focusing on sheet goods. You don't ever get near the saw blade and they can usually be set up to work with your existing circular saws so the frame is all you really need to get.

A track saw set up seems like your best bet. With that being said, you could also try a different type of diy saw guide before you go spend the money.

The problem you probably have with the 2x4 method is the inconsistency of where they line up the guide + width of the saw, plus dealing with the 2x4 being in the way. Cut an 8' long x 3-4" wide piece of 3/4 ply that leaves the factory edge on one side. Cut an 8' long piece of 1/2 ply that is 1-2 inches wider than the combined width of the 3/4 ply + your circular saw. Attach with glue and screws/brads/etc. the 3/4 ply 1" in from the edge of the 1/2 ply with the 3/4 factory edge facing the wider section of 1/2. Take your circular saw and using the 3/4 ply as your guide edge cut the excess 1/2 ply off. You now have a saw guide that is custom fit to your saw. You simply line up the edge of the 1/2 ply with you cut line, clamp down using the 1" overhang on the other side, and you'll get straight lines every time. (if my ramblings are too hard to follow google "DIY circular saw guide" and it's the same as the first image that comes up).

Notes: You can use a 1x4 instead of 3/4, but that can be tricky finding a truly straight one. Worm drive saws work best with this, but sidewinders work too with a little adjustment to cut depth. This is a great set up if you have multiple of a single style saw, but you could also make guides for different saws for a few bucks each. I also recommend making a 4' length guide as the 8' can get unwieldy when cutting shorter spans.


----------



## BillConnerFASTC (Dec 26, 2015)

Doesn't seem like the track saw - purchased or home built - solves the safety issue, plus you still have to block it up. While what you or I do is up to us, I think you need to make the case for a panel saw. Must be safest way to cut sheet goods. The track saw still leaves a spinning blade too easily contacted.


----------



## AudJ (Dec 26, 2015)

+ 1 opinion for panel saw.


----------



## Colin (Dec 26, 2015)

Panel saw, sure, but I'd say any table saw with a blade guard, riving knife or splitter, anti-kickback pawls and good push sticks, properly taught and supervised, is safer and easier than a circ saw (guided with a straight edge or not) for student use. Cutting thick sheets, I have way more students struggle to control a circ saw (and keep track of the power cord) than with a TS. So while I think you have a strong and probably eventually winnable argument for a SawStop version, anything stationary is a significant improvement for quality and safety.


----------



## MikeJ (Dec 27, 2015)

I think its a shame that some places will not let students use tools. I would try to find the money somewhere for a saw stop. Even pro shops are using sawstops, just because they reduce liability a lot.

A panel saw does you no good for ripping, yes it is difficult to stretch across a 4' piece with a circ saw, but I'm not sure it justifies buying a panel saw when a table say does both better.

Good training and a decent splitter goes a long way. I don't like spltters and gaurds for some things, where the with of the guard blocks your work. It also makes it hard measure from the blade to the fence, and you cant start a cut in the middle of a piece by lowering the board onto the blade, but those things should not be issues in a high school theater environment.


----------



## AudJ (Dec 27, 2015)

MikeJ said:


> A panel saw does you no good for ripping,


Although true for some home-made varieties, name-brand panel saws do rip quite nicely. That last tiny bit when the top panel looses an 1/8" at the end of the cut has always bothered me though. Make sure the working piece is on the bottom.


----------



## BillConnerFASTC (Dec 28, 2015)

AudJ said:


> Although true for some home-made varieties, name-brand panel saws do rip quite nicely. That last tiny bit when the top panel looses an 1/8" at the end of the cut has always bothered me though. Make sure the working piece is on the bottom.



Rip panels or rip 16' sawn lumber?

In a scene shop, I think both a panel saw and a table saw is justified.


----------



## AudJ (Dec 28, 2015)

BillConnerASTC said:


> Rip panels or rip 16' sawn lumber?
> 
> In a scene shop, I think both a panel saw and a table saw is justified.


Of course just panels. I agree both saws would be ideal, but I don't find myself ripping narrow boards often for stage jobs.


----------



## BillConnerFASTC (Dec 28, 2015)

AudJ said:


> Of course just panels. I agree both saws would be ideal, but I don't find myself ripping narrow boards often for stage jobs.


When I ran a scene shop I never bought any lumber other than 1 x 12 x 16' pine and ripped it all as needed. I find myself ripping two-by as well. Sort of curious what MI was thinking.

I'm sure if I had to decide between the two, I'd go with table saw, but if running a shop for HS students - not as clear cut - and I don't think having both is at all extravagant. (Time for a HS sports metaphor? tackling dummies of one of those sleds - do they have to choose?)


----------



## Fountain Of Euph (Dec 28, 2015)

Students need to be able to use a table saw, and the Sawstop makes that possable. Watch one of the demo videos, it will blow your mind.

Is your administration the type that will go for the safety cost is worth it argument? If not, see if some local tool retailer will make up the difference. Free ad in programs or even a little blurb"tools for this production provided by our generous supporter, localhardwarestorename. We gladly appreciate their continuing support of education in the scenic arts." 



Sent from Taptalk for Android, this was.


----------



## venuetech (Dec 28, 2015)

http://toolguyd.com/bosch-reaxx-table-saw/
Bosch is adding their reaxx flesh detecting saw to th the mix soon. But it has yet to hit the stores and the price point will be close to the sawstop. But the blade is not trashed when triggered so that could add up to make it worth the wait.

In my mind a table saw is going to give you the most flexibility


----------



## RC4 Sean (Dec 29, 2015)

I would imagine that the school's insurance company would insist on a Saw Stop. Our Repertory Theatre shop and University Shop had annual safety inspections to meet the insurance guidelines. Guards, splitters, kickback prevention, all were part of the requirements. The other thing to consider is the physical ability needed to lift a sheet good onto a table saw and keep it aligned and level to the saw while cutting. I could make a very convincing case as to why a panel say and sawstop were cost saving vs possible injury on a track saw.


----------



## BillConnerFASTC (Dec 29, 2015)

RC4 Sean said:


> I would imagine that the school's insurance company would insist on a Saw Stop. Our Repertory Theatre shop and University Shop had annual safety inspections to meet the insurance guidelines. Guards, splitters, kickback prevention, all were part of the requirements. The other thing to consider is the physical ability needed to lift a sheet good onto a table saw and keep it aligned and level to the saw while cutting. I could make a very convincing case as to why a panel say and sawstop were cost saving vs possible injury on a track saw.


Good point. I think the ability for one person to move a sheet a ply into a panel saw was why I intuitively believe that it's necessary and justified in most scene shops. The space, supports, and strength needed to cut play on a table saw is not insignificant. If you weren't likely to have to rip long sawn lumber, it might tip to just the panel saw - but both panel and table saw are needed. So many factors in making the decision - the amount of production in a year being a major one.


----------



## MikeJ (Dec 30, 2015)

If it were up to me, I would have at least one of each type of saw if budget and space were available. Even if the saw stop is not as good as another table saw(but actually, its a really good saw) I would go for that even if the school and the insurance company don't care. When you are young an learning things for the first time(or third) mistakes are likely to happen. There is no good reason no good reason not to mitigate those risks by buying the safer tool.

If someone looses a finger in a professional shop; it sucks, but that's all part of the known risks in the job.
If a student I was teaching lost a finger their first time using a table saw; that would be on me 100%.

I don't think a table saw is a particularly risky tool, but the results of a small mistakes are usually a order of magnitude greater than many other tools.


----------



## robartsd (Dec 31, 2015)

I actually think the Saw Stop would be more important in a professional production enviornment than an educational one (not that I'm not glad to see it there too). I would expect users in an educational enviornment to have much more focus on how things should be done; in a professional production enviornment, the focus on getting things done can sometimes erode away at safe habbits (even though it shouldn't).


----------



## dpak (Dec 31, 2015)

Wow - thanks for all the great advice! Unfortunately, money is an issue, since the school won't be paying for this - I'll be spending money raised from ticket sales, and I just can't justify spending $2000 for something that would be nice to have but isn't critical. Insurance has never come up, perhaps because admin knows we're covered (or just doesn't care what I do as long as no one gets hurt). I won't get a regular table saw; given the alternatives, it seems too risky. Just so I have a project to work on, I'll try building a DIY circular saw guide. If that doesn't work out, I'll get a track saw.

Thanks again for all the input!


----------



## kevinatblinn (Jan 2, 2016)

When I am making long cuts with a circular saw, I do use a saw guide (although a track would be cool), but I also do it on the ground. I lay a 3/4" or 1" thick piece of extruded foam (blue/pink/white) on the ground, set the piece I'm cutting on top of it, set the depth of the circular saw so it cuts through the top material and about 1/4" into the foam. While I am on my knees for the cut, I can safely pause and allow the saw to stop, adjust my body, and continue the cut. There's no saw horses for the off-cut to fall from or for me to cut through, no fingers underneath the wood - it all seems quite safe and manageable to me. I normally use this method for long diagonal cuts or others that would be difficult to manage on the table saw.


----------



## Colin (Jan 3, 2016)

kevinatblinn said:


> When I am making long cuts with a circular saw, I do use a saw guide (although a track would be cool), but I also do it on the ground.



I'm not saying you're bound to get hurt doing this, and I get how it could be easier sometimes, but I would rather see people just get used to the limits of their reach and to using saw horses whenever possible. Reasons are:

- At least in the OP's situation with student use, I wouldn't trust every student to correctly set blade depth every time. An instructor could check first, but that's an awful lot of micromanagement, still with potential for a mistake. Also, depending on the guide and its use, it is often possible to overshoot the end of the material and saw guide when finishing a cut, at which point it becomes challenging to keep the saw from dropping down. In either case the blade could contact the floor, leading to the saw climbing or kicking back, or broken teeth kicking around. That's in addition to the damage to the floor. You said you cut on the "ground" so maybe you're working outdoors? That's probably better, but one still might not know for sure what's in that ground.

- I'm aware of two instances of very experienced carpenters being badly cut after losing control of circ saws while using them at floor level. One cut through most of his big toe (should have had a safety toe!) and the other narrowly missed his femoral artery (cut that and your EMTs better be really fast!). In a kneeling or crouching position, you're likely to have more of your body in harm's way if the saw climbs/kicks, and it is harder to get out of the way quickly compared to when on your feet in proper stance. The luxury of not having to reach sideways across sheet material could also encourage someone to follow with their body directly behind the saw while cutting, rather than staying a bit offset from the path of a kickback.

- Foam eventually gets chewed up and then you have to spend another $20 or so for a fresh sheet, versus maybe (but probably not) replacing $3 of 2x4 on a pair of horses.

- Foam dust is gross, plus foam is toxic and eventually flammable when heated. Of course everyone _should _have a nice sharp blade and hold the saw steady enough to minimize friction and keep the blade cool through a thick sheet...


----------



## garyvp (Jan 4, 2016)

Agree with Colin. I like the idea of a track saw or panel saw, but you need a good space/table for safe operation (see that third paragraph above). Never on the floor. We have one fellow who only uses the 2x4 track method but he is very disciplined and careful and always uses a fresh 3/4" 4x8 plywood sheet for a table (on our horses) to jig everything on. However, we mostly use a 10 year old Home Depot Rigid table saw mounted on a proper lockable trolley. For the money (about 600$ at the time) we felt that it was very solid, had a better fence than other saws in that price range, and had an expandable bed. Space is a major issue for us and it is fine. other than the blade guard, nothing has broken after 100 shows. We also use a pedestal roller to assist panel cuts. Still, I worry about anyone new, young or old, using the table saw unattended. Every carpenter I know is light a finger tip from these.


----------



## bobgaggle (Jan 5, 2016)

garyvp said:


> Still, I worry about anyone new, young or old, using the table saw unattended. Every carpenter I know is light a finger tip from these.



There seems to be a mythos about table saws and students here on CB. Every carpenter I know has been injured more times by screw guns than table saws. This tool is no more dangerous than any other saw, because poor technique is the real danger. You can get a nasty gash from a pull saw (been there done that) and you can get a nasty gash from a TS. Granted you're probably not going to amputate your finger with a pull saw. And yes, teens are hormone ridden and haven't developed enough to make wise choices, yet we still let them operate cars at 60mph on the open road. If we let them do that why not let them run a saw? Implement good techniques and develop a culture of respect for the tools and equipment.

OP, I'm not bashing panel, track, or circ saws. Just venting about this idea that table saws are too dangerous for teens to use

edit:
Also most of the injuries I've witnessed have happened during a time crunch. People start rushing and cutting corners, and inevitably fingers. For whatever that's worth


----------



## rsmentele (Jan 5, 2016)

Go down to the woodworking shop class and see what they have installed. I can almost guarantee that they are standard table saws. The first few weeks of those classes are all about safety and how to operate the tools properly. Accident's will happen, no matter what. 

Teaching the kids how to operate the tools properly and avoid injury will go much farther than buying a tool to prevent the injury and not teaching them to avoid the issue all together. You can be sure if these kids continue with set construction, or any type of woodworking, they will need to use a regular table saw. 

Teach them how to properly use the tools. Teach them to respect the safety rules. If they cannot learn those things, they cannot use them.


----------



## Fountain Of Euph (Jan 5, 2016)

If you could somthing as simple as buying a diffrent saw to ensure safety if your students, why wouldn't you. Most drivers Ed cars have a passenger hand break. Dosent mean that students dont need to be good drivers.

Sent from Taptalk for Android, this was.


----------



## bobgaggle (Jan 6, 2016)

On a sort of side note. The sawstop is great at preventing and reducing injuries, but its not the end all be all of safety. I believe the safety on this saw will keep you from bleeding if you touch the blade with the body part moving at >1"/second towards the blade. So if you're making a controlled cut at a good feed rate and your finger happens to be in the wrong place you get to keep your finger. If you're ripping a twisty piece of CDX in an un air conditioned shop and your hands are sweaty, your hand can easily slip and shoot towards the blade a lot faster and you end up with a new story to post here. In the end it all goes back to having proper technique and good safety protocols, regardless of the tool you're using.

I knew a high school shop teacher who had a sawstop but he painted over all the logos and branding. He didn't want his kids to know what it was so they wouldn't get sloppy thinking the tool would keep them safe.


----------



## dpak (Jan 11, 2016)

I ended up making a circular saw guide. So far it has worked well, producing fairly straight cuts. The students who have used it said it was much easier than using a 2x4. 

Every student has to learn how to use a drill, but the saws are optional. I know they can be scary, so I don't want to force a student to use one, in part because I don't want someone who is terrified using one.In a dream world, we would have a sawstop, track saw and panel saw, but as long as we can get decent results with the guide, I'll stick with it.


----------



## bobgaggle (Jan 12, 2016)

dpak said:


> I ended up making a circular saw guide. So far it has worked well, producing fairly straight cuts. The students who have used it said it was much easier than using a 2x4.



What surface did you end up cutting on? There was discussion of saw horses verses sheet foam...


----------



## dpak (Jan 12, 2016)

bobgaggle said:


> What surface did you end up cutting on? There was discussion of saw horses verses sheet foam...


We're just cutting off the edge of a loading dock .


----------



## peacefulone61 (Jan 15, 2016)

You might have no choice I know some states now have laws that states any new power table saw with some sort of break system.


----------



## bobgaggle (Jan 18, 2016)

peacefulone61 said:


> You might have no choice I know some states now have laws that states any new power table saw with some sort of break system.



Hadn't heard that. Kind of ridiculous given that Sawstop dominates that market. I've heard a few companies are starting to think about rolling out safety stops on table saws, haven't seen any reviews yet.


----------



## venuetech (Jan 19, 2016)

bobgaggle said:


> Hadn't heard that. Kind of ridiculous given that Sawstop dominates that market. I've heard a few companies are starting to think about rolling out safety stops on table saws, haven't seen any reviews yet.


Bosch Reaxx has just hit the stores, after some court objections from sawstop.  
$100 bucks for a replacement cartridge (two shots) and you save your old blade.


----------



## BillConnerFASTC (Jan 19, 2016)

The history of Sawstop and regulations is not pretty.


----------



## gafftaper (Jan 21, 2016)

Just for the record, I want to point out that many people only think of a Sawstop because of it's safety features. But it's also a top of the line table saw. I have a really nice Jet saw here in my new theater and it's fine, but I really miss my Sawstop from the old theater. Safety features asside, it was just a better saw.


----------



## microstar (Jan 21, 2016)

peacefulone61 said:


> You might have no choice I know some states now have laws that states any new power table saw with some sort of break system.



Which states would those be?


----------



## venuetech (Jan 21, 2016)

microstar said:


> Which states would those be?


At this point i do not think any states have such a law. California had a bill in the works but it failed in 2012 after manufactures and retailers joined forces to stop it. I think the bill was tied directly to sawstop and did not leave any room for competing products.
As i understand things the SawStop inventor Stephan Gass (a patent lawyer) initially offered major manufactures a licence deal. They all balked at the proposed offer and refused to licence the technology. So SawStop started designing and building their own line of table saws. Fiercely defending any hint of patent
infringement. Promoting their technology whenever they can. Other table saw manufactures must develop their own flesh detection/blade stop systems and then run up against any and all infringement law suits by Gass & company.

http://www.finewoodworking.com/item/45040/stephen-colbert-takes-the-sizzle-out-of-sawstop

Bosch has been the first to run the gauntlet.


----------



## dpak (Jan 24, 2016)

A quick update: Students have used the circular saw guide and all have said it was much easier than using the 2x4 method. The cuts haven't been perfect - sometimes they forget to push against the guide - but they have been much better. It might not be the ideal solution, but since it cost nothing to make (saving us at least $400) I can live with it.


----------



## kicknargel (Jan 28, 2016)

If you make sure to position your guide on the "keep" side of the cut, then you can go back and clean up the cut if you've wandered away from the fence. It's easy to make wood smaller!


----------



## bobgaggle (Jan 29, 2016)

gafftaper said:


> Just for the record, I want to point out that many people only think of a Sawstop because of it's safety features. But it's also a top of the line table saw.



Yeah its a great saw. Just got the add on sliding table and I love it. Old guys in the shop are having a hard time adjusting though haha


----------



## BSchend (Jan 29, 2016)

Quick note for people who may make there own saw guide. Make sure you mark the cutting edge of the guide with a thin marker or paint. This helps you to know if the cut edge (where you line up the cut) is still the dimensions you start from. Just realized one corner of my guide has slowly lost about 1/8-1/4 of an inch (over many cuts) and was altering the resulting cuts. The guide piece will still put the blade X number of inches away, but if that cut edge has been narrowed you alter the relationship of the guide to your intended cut.


----------



## peacefulone61 (Feb 2, 2016)

microstar said:


> Which states would those be?



I know Massachuessets has that as a requirement.


----------

