# Peeling floor



## jayvee (Jan 18, 2018)

Hi folks,

At the beginning of this school year a new layer of maso was installed on my stage. I was assured it would be tempered and pre-painted, etc. We are into the school year now and any kind of tape peels the paint off the floor, down to fuzzy fibers. This started with our first production rehearsal in September and I brought it to the attention of my Plant supervisor who, in turn, had the installers out to look. They were shocked and amazed and said they've never run into anything like it before and could I just only use blue painter's tape from now on and maybe a few more layers of paint and they would look into additives or other solutions. Now, I've been a few places and seen a few things, but I have not had a stage floor that would not accept spike tape. I said as much and was met with Shock and Disbelief. I got mansplained to about paint and tape and hardboard. 

We had to lay a dance floor for our winter dance concert and it's time to take up the dance floor. As you may have guessed it's taped down with gaff and, sure enough, it has peeled up in my test spots. I've called my supervisor and am awaiting a response from him and, subsequently, the installers.

I suppose my question is this: should the floor be oil tempered hardboard or is regular heat treated, which I suspect is what they've laid, robust enough? Am I barking up the wrong tree here? Additionally, any suggestions to mitigate/solve/repair this situation are more than welcome.

Best,
Jayvee


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## Van (Jan 18, 2018)

I've run across bad batches of Maso before and I've always preferred Heat tempered as opposed to Oil tempered as the oil can cause issue with Latex primers. Gaff should not be peeling up paint and maso layers. Only other thing I can think of would be if there was any issue with whatever the floor was primed with and it somehow degraded the resin on the top layers of the Maso. Typically Paint will peel up paint layer applied on top of the maso but the maso itself ? rarely.


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## jayvee (Jan 18, 2018)

Van said:


> I've run across bad batches of Maso before and I've always preferred Heat tempered as opposed to Oil tempered as the oil can cause issue with Latex primers. Gaff should not be peeling up paint and maso layers. Only other thing I can think of would be if there was any issue with whatever the floor was primed with and it somehow degraded the resin on the top layers of the Maso. Typically Paint will peel up paint layer applied on top of the maso but the maso itself ? rarely.



Here is a photo of my problem. It looks like the maso is coming up as well?


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## Amiers (Jan 18, 2018)

Thats rough. Who were the painters? We’re they Joe Schmo painters. Or someone that paints theaters for a living. 

I kind of want to lean on the fact that they didn’t apply it properly.


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## sk8rsdad (Jan 18, 2018)

This topic was recently covered in this thread.

@technical shared a post that gets to the crux of the issue. It comes down to the grade of the hardboard and most big box retailers aren't carrying the good grades. There are updates to his original post further down the thread.


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## jayvee (Jan 18, 2018)

Amiers said:


> Thats rough. Who were the painters? We’re they Joe Schmo painters. Or someone that paints theaters for a living.
> 
> I kind of want to lean on the fact that they didn’t apply it properly.


They are a company who installs stage floors for all the public schools in the area. I don't know how this hasn't come up for them before now.


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## jayvee (Jan 18, 2018)

sk8rsdad said:


> This topic was recently covered in this thread.
> 
> @technical shared a post that gets to the crux of the issue. It comes down to the grade of the hardboard and most big box retails aren't carrying the good grades. There are updates to his original post further down the thread.


Thanks, I had read through that. I am in the process of trying to get the paperwork from the install to see what they used. In the meantime, I should try to seal it?


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## Van (Jan 18, 2018)

jayvee said:


> Here is a photo of my problem. It looks like the maso is coming up as well?


WOW! That is some crappy Masonite! But on the plus side the Paint is extremely well bonded to the floor... well the first layer of it anyway...

If that is typical then you need to let your 'plant manager' know that it is unacceptable as a stage floor and then get the District Safety officer involved. Uneven / inconsistent surface texture is unacceptable on a dance or performance floor; turned ankles are the least of the injuries one could expect. Honestly, I would request that they remove the Masonite and replace it with 1/4" MDF. 

IMHO somebody 'bargain basement-ed' the materials on this.


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## jayvee (Jan 18, 2018)

Van said:


> WOW! That is some crappy Masonite! But on the plus side the Paint is extremely well bonded to the floor... well the first layer of it anyway...
> 
> If that is typical then you need to let your 'plant manager' know that it is unacceptable as a stage floor and then get the District Safety officer involved. Uneven / inconsistent surface texture is unacceptable on a dance or performance floor; turned ankles are the least of the injuries one could expect. Honestly, I would request that they remove the Masonite and replace it with 1/4" MDF.
> 
> IMHO somebody 'bargain basement-ed' the materials on this.


Thanks, so I'm not crazy or nitpicking.


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## Van (Jan 18, 2018)

jayvee said:


> Thanks, so I'm not crazy or nitpicking.


In my opinion? Not at all.


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## JacobRothermel (Jan 24, 2018)

FWiW, I'm with Van and the others whole-heartedly here. If this had been a project done "in-house" by a crew who has no experience with "what kind of masonite isn't utterly ruined by spike tape," I might be more forgiving of this issue. But this is a professional company doing, allegedly, professional work precisely in the field that should *&%[email protected]*& know better. This needs to be fixed and fixed not by someone who is not you. Painter's tape won't hold up to the foot traffic you're likely to see on a stage floor (especially during dance shows!) and their request to only use that is utterly ridiculous. Spike tape has been in use for just just exactly this kind of work for decades, and that adhesive technology has only gotten better; there's no excuse for not being able to use it now.

Broadly speaking, not holding the company responsible for what is, in my opinion, a shoddy installation just gives them permission to do it again to another school later on (whether they meant to or not). Letting them skate just hurts potentially everyone else in your area down the road.

Locally, specifically for you & yours, the floor you need for what you do isn't the floor you got and that _needs _to be rectified, regardless of whether the contractors put in what was asked for or not.

My $0.02.


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## jayvee (Jan 29, 2018)

In case anyone is curious, the flooring company has apparently ordered some gaff tape to test the floor of another client to see if their floor does the same. We will proceed from there and I've been told "they will do what they need to do". As a matter of interest, they had painted one coat with PPG Breakthrough and called the paint manufacturer, who advised to not put any tape on the painted floor. Flooring company was told the formula changed to a low VOC about 5 years ago. I thanked them for the info but maintained it is probably not the paint. I am, however, glad to hear they are doing some homework. I'll update if anything exciting happens.


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## MusicNinja610 (Feb 2, 2018)

Jayvee, hello there I am the one who had a thread going about this for a while last year. If you'd like to email me I can pass along what I've learned. [email protected]

Later on,


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## Van (Feb 2, 2018)

jayvee said:


> In case anyone is curious, the flooring company has apparently ordered some gaff tape to test the floor of another client to see if their floor does the same. We will proceed from there and I've been told "they will do what they need to do". As a matter of interest, they had painted one coat with PPG Breakthrough and called the paint manufacturer, who advised to not put any tape on the painted floor. Flooring company was told the formula changed to a low VOC about 5 years ago. I thanked them for the info but maintained it is probably not the paint. I am, however, glad to hear they are doing some homework. I'll update if anything exciting happens.


My response would be, "The paint has done it's job and properly bonded to the flooring; the flooring is not properly bonded to itself."


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## spenserh (Feb 12, 2018)

We have the exact same issue as the OP. In our case, I can confirm that big box hardboard was used and likely the culprit.

We got about 5 years out of our previous floor, we are about 18 months into this floor's life and I am looking for budget to do it again, properly.

This is what we deal with every time we lay dancefloor.


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## cdub260 (Feb 12, 2018)

We have the same issue with the Masonite in our smaller space (Yes, it's actually old enough to be real Masonite.). The flooring is fifty or so years old and while ugly, is still strong. We just ignore it and paint over it when it starts to look too bad. The audience either doesn't notice or doesn't care.


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## jayvee (Feb 13, 2018)

The latest advice from the floor guys is to only use ProGaff, which they say was recommended by the maso manufacturer. They got some and laid a piece on my floor and have left it for a week now. They will see what happens when they pull it up. I use BMI house brand gaff, which I have learned is made by ProGaff. My spike tape is also PG. I laid strips of these next to their test spot. Super curious to see what happens next.


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## FMEng (Feb 13, 2018)

I'd love to know how the floor guys explain why there is a solid layer of maso stuck to the underside of the peeled paint. If it were a paint bonding problem, there would be very little maso stuck to the peeled paint. The maso is coming apart because the paint is stronger than the maso. They are avoiding acknowledgement of the actual problem.

If logic and reason fails to resolve this, call a construction materials testing lab. They could make an examination and write a report on what is happening. It would cost some money, but it would provide an impartial, expert opinion that would likely force the floor guys to face the facts.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Feb 13, 2018)

It seems they have conceded the paint is not the problem and they are trying to find a tape whose bond is less than the hardboard. I'm surprised they don't say they'll repaint and then wax the heck out of it so no tape will stick.

The hardboard needs to be replaced - only a matter of how long and who pays.

I have had problems with paint on plyron but - knock on wood (pun intended) - not with the actual plyron. I'll stick (another intended pun) with it.

I am seeing some and hearing of others - stage floors with a hardwood veneered plywood - stained first and then painted. Not sure how I feel about that. Have not seen one with enough years of use to know how well they perform.


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## JohnD (Feb 16, 2018)

Who knew a thread about painting stage floors could be so exciting? Might I suggest @jayvee that if they continue to mansplain stuff to you, you should switch to lingo they understand. Going by the links in @sk8rsdad post #5 (referring to a post by @teqniqal ) you can explain to them that what a stage floor needs is ANSI Class 1 product with a 6000PSI modulus of rupture!!! That the junk Class 5 stuff DOESN'T work. You might also do them a big favor and explain that if they are going to mansplain something, they not only have to talk the talk, they also have to walk the walk-cliché's are so useful, don't you think.


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## KacyC (Mar 7, 2018)

Hi all, one quick note that I wanted to add to this discussion is that PPG Breakthrough comes in (at least?) three VOC levels. There is the V50-90, which a lot of municipalities no longer allow, V56-90 at a VOC of 50g/L, and V57-90 at a VOC 149g/L. We've generally seen better performance from the "low" VOC rather than the "extra low" variety.


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## MusicNinja610 (Mar 7, 2018)

KacyC said:


> Hi all, one quick note that I wanted to add to this discussion is that PPG Breakthrough comes in (at least?) three VOC levels. There is the V50-90, which a lot of municipalities no longer allow, V56-90 at a VOC of 50g/L, and V57-90 at a VOC 149g/L. We've generally seen better performance from the "low" VOC rather than the "extra low" variety.



Appreciate the input on the paint side. I know things have changed with the paint formulas in recent years and that is causing some problems. Most of us I think are finding that the paint is pulling Hardboard up with it so it isn't necessarily that the paint is failing, it's that the Hardboard is.


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## KacyC (Mar 7, 2018)

MusicNinja610 said:


> Appreciate the input on the paint side. I know things have changed with the paint formulas in recent years and that is causing some problems. Most of us I think are finding that the paint is pulling Hardboard up with it so it isn't necessarily that the paint is failing, it's that the Hardboard is.


I agree that the hardboard is failing and that is a key part of the issue. I just wanted to comment, as I've found several folks saying "we used Breakthrough" but not necessarily talking about the same paint formulation.
I had a recent issue on a project where the Contractor submitted one hardboard (Signature Panels) and then installed a different one (Eucaboard) that they could get from a local, preferred (non-Lowe's/HD) lumber store. It was one of the first examples of delamination I've seen. We made them redo the floor, first testing two sections, at Contractor expense, since it was a non-approved substitution. The second floor behaved well in the test, so the full floor topping was replaced. It has since performed better in the full installation, but there is still some issue. The hardboard is definitely the major element.
However, in our tests, we have found that the paint also makes a difference, and the changing paint formulations compound the issues we're seeing with the surface material. As I said, the research here is ongoing.


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## KacyC (Mar 7, 2018)

By the way, @MusicNinja610, how has your floor been doing since last summer's post?


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## MusicNinja610 (Mar 7, 2018)

I see. That is definitely interesting. Keep us updated on how things progress!


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## MusicNinja610 (Mar 7, 2018)

KacyC said:


> By the way, @MusicNinja610, how has your floor been doing since last summer's post?


I have only just finished relaying my floor. I want to give full credit to Matt Evans U of Dayton for helping me find all of this out. He pointed me to a company called "Decorative Panels International" where I found a Hardboard that looks and smells very much like the old Masonite. That in combination with 3 coats Rosco paints Tough Prime will hopefully equal a good stage floor this year.


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## jayvee (Mar 8, 2018)

So, all the test tape strips pulled up the floor. I had also laid some blue painter's tape down for a few weeks, to mark the location of some backdrops in our last show. That also peeled the floor.

Floor guys were out yesterday. They brought two pieces of maso with them and some Breakthrough. They divided the hardboard into four sections and painted progressive layers of paint in each section - one layer in square one, two in square two, and so on. They will come back and put some tapes on them and we will have a grand experiment. They feel that more layers of paint will solve the issue.
Science!


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## BillConnerFASTC (Mar 8, 2018)

jayvee said:


> They feel that more layers of paint will solve the issue.
> Science



Huh? More paint will stop hardboard from delaminating? Seems unlikely.


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## RonHebbard (Mar 8, 2018)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> Huh? More paint will stop hardboard from delaminating? Seems unlikely.


 @BillConnerFASTC Perhaps they're envisioning REALLY _HEAVY_ paint, the weight of which will compress the hardboard? 
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.


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## FMEng (Mar 10, 2018)

They said that with a straight face? After the next experiment, I would make it clear that time is up.

Do we know that the paint had a week or two to reach full hardness before the tape was applied? If not, it isn't valid.

An example I'd give these clowns. Get a piece of corrugated cardboard. Paint the cardboard. Put tape on the cardboard. Peel off the tape. Is the fact that the cardboard comes apart the fault of the paint? No, it's because it has the durability of cardboard.

As I said before, get someone with credentials to tell these guys they are being dumb. Spend a small amount of money to hire a construction materials testing lab, an architect, or a construction management firm to produce a report. After that, instruct the floor guys to replace the floor or the district's lawyer is your next phone call.


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## MusicNinja610 (Mar 25, 2018)

KacyC said:


> By the way, @MusicNinja610, how has your floor been doing since last summer's post?


So update, I put three coats of Rosco Tough Prime down and my lone tapper is already scraping the paint down to the Hardboard. We adjusted his steps so as to not do damage, but that already shows me that even this higher quality Hardboard is not up to par with the Masonite we all know and love. Unfortunate. We shall see how things progress.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Mar 25, 2018)

Did you prepaint - both sides and edges - or just coat after laying panels?

This seems like a coating failure, not like the material delamination that started this thread.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Mar 25, 2018)

KacyC said:


> Hi all, one quick note that I wanted to add to this discussion is that PPG Breakthrough comes in (at least?) three VOC levels. There is the V50-90, which a lot of municipalities no longer allow, V56-90 at a VOC of 50g/L, and V57-90 at a VOC 149g/L. We've generally seen better performance from the "low" VOC rather than the "extra low" variety.



I got around this once by pre-painting off site.


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## sk8rsdad (Mar 25, 2018)

Rosco Tough Prime is a primer. It doesn't wear well. It needs a clearcoat on top. However, adding a clearcoat will make the deck more slippery, so your tapper may be able to slide from wing to wing.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Mar 25, 2018)

sk8rsdad said:


> Rosco Tough Prime is a primer. It doesn't wear well. It needs a clearcoat on top. However, adding a clearcoat will make the deck more slippery, so your tapper may be able to slide from wing to wing.



Many people use this as a finish coat. I did on floors until the formulation changed (the first time - when I switched to specifying PPG Breakthrough - reportedly changed back). From Rosco's website: "Tough Prime Black is perfect for stage floors and proscenium arches, resisting scuffs and abrasions while providing a rich black finish." Sure sounds like they say OK to finish coat.


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## sk8rsdad (Mar 25, 2018)

We used to use it in my venue but got too many complaints from the dance schools because turned their shoes black. Consequently, we changed to house brand black satin wall paint (deep base + 12 oz of lamp black) and have been using that for about 8 years now. We still use the Rosco on the walls and set pieces.


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## jayvee (Mar 26, 2018)

sk8rsdad said:


> We used to use it in my venue but got too many complaints from the dance schools because turned their shoes black. Consequently, we changed to house brand black satin wall paint (deep base + 12 oz of lamp black) and have been using that for about 8 years now. We still use the Rosco on the walls and set pieces.


Good to know. Currently, we are still waiting on the test pieces of maso to reveal their mettle.


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## jayvee (Apr 4, 2018)

And here we have our sample sheets, post tape. Left tape was pulled after two weeks or so-ish (they did it without either of us around) and I found out today I could pull the right tape (after 3/4 weeks?). Their current thinking is to flip the sheets and coat with 4 coats of paint.

Looking back at this thread, the tape I pulled today was almost exactly 4 weeks. They pulled the left tape after 3.

Because nobody was there when they pulled their tape off, I have no idea if they did it like normal people pull tape or SUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUPER SLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOWLY.


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## teqniqal (Apr 4, 2018)

Have you been able to get an actual test of the density / burst strength? It is easy to obtain a sample of the good stuff (Rosenburg Medite II, 1/4") from Rosenburg (or any other ANSI Grade 240 or 230 / ANSI Class 1 or 2 from another manufacturer). Although a lab test is more definitive, an easy test to perform is to place the Medite II next to a piece of the installed material on a concrete floor, and whack them both really hard with a carpenter's hammer. The difference in the indentation should be obvious. Attached is a chart from ANSI 208.2-2002 Standard. It shows the wood properties slightly different (Grades) than the ANSI 135.4-2004 standard (Classes). Note the significantly higher *I*nternal *B*ond (IB) (~4:1) between ANSI Grade 240 / ANSI Class 1 when compared to the cheap ANSI Grade 210 / ANSI Class 1. This is the 'flakiness factor'. Although the contractor seems to be thinking that 'if the paint doesn't peel, it must be good', this really doesn't show what you should be concerned about - the long-term durability of the material. It will be neigh on to impossible to get any one to come out and discuss the problem 2-5 years out when the decking begins to flake apart. It is the regular abuse of heavily loaded narrow casters rolling across the floor that puts severe point-loads on the material, and that is what fractures the internal structure of the softer 'cheep stuff', which in-turn causes it to flake apart. Another tactic might be to request a copy of the purchase order / delivery receipt for the flooring material that they used. It should show a manufacturer and model number which could be tracked back to the manufacturer to confirm the product properties.


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## emathews (May 9, 2018)

How would CB forums move forward? What advice would you give?
Our facility is about a year old. In that year our new maso floor has been painted twice and sanded down before the second painting (of Sherwin Williams paint) bc it pulls up in chunks after use. We've had rentals come in and we've used our own gaff tape. It doesn't matter what we use, it all comes up this way.
The building is about to be decommissioned from the construction company who built it. Do you have any suggestions on how we can proceed before they don't have to be held accountable?
I didn't have a Corgi, so I used an 8" crescent wrench for scale.


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## BillConnerFASTC (May 9, 2018)

It has to be in writing as defective and never corrected. It could be a design error or ir could be a construction flaw. Either way the owner recieved a defective system and needs to demand correction or - most likely - replacement. The owner powers that be may not be so inclined.


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## jayvee (May 10, 2018)

Yesterday I got an email that said their research showed that Broadway uses chalk and/or spray paint so could we use that.


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## Van (May 10, 2018)

jayvee said:


> Yesterday I got an email that said their research showed that Broadway uses chalk and/or spray paint so could we use that.


wow... you could let them know that the vast majority of professional theatres use glow tape with clear packing tape over it, or spike tape.... hence the name, 'Spike tape'...

Just wow.


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## jayvee (May 10, 2018)

Van said:


> wow... you could let them know that the vast majority of professional theatres use glow tape with clear packing tape over it, or spike tape.... hence the name, 'Spike tape'...
> 
> Just wow.


I've asked to see their research.


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## spenserh (May 10, 2018)

emathews said:


> How would CB forums move forward? What advice would you give?
> Our facility is about a year old. In that year our new maso floor has been painted twice and sanded down before the second painting (of Sherwin Williams paint) bc it pulls up in chunks after use. We've had rentals come in and we've used our own gaff tape. It doesn't matter what we use, it all comes up this way.
> The building is about to be decommissioned from the construction company who built it. Do you have any suggestions on how we can proceed before they don't have to be held accountable?
> I didn't have a Corgi, so I used an 8" crescent wrench for scale.



We are in the same boat, I was going to rent a floor sander this summer and give that a try. Should I not bother?


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## sk8rsdad (May 10, 2018)

A floor sander won't solve the delamination problem.


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## RonHebbard (May 10, 2018)

sk8rsdad said:


> A floor sander won't solve the delamination problem.


@sk8rsdad Perhaps you're not considering all the options? If you sand sufficiently, you can sweep and vacuum away all of the poor quality pseudo Masonite then simply replace with freshly finished new, durable, higher quality, stock. 
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.


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## RickR (May 10, 2018)

jayvee said:


> Yesterday I got an email that said their research showed that Broadway uses chalk and/or spray paint so could we use that.



I'd like to see either of those hold some Marley, or cables down.


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## BillConnerFASTC (May 10, 2018)

Just forget the contractors and start submitting work orders for replacing the floor. Unless you can get higher ups to support you, its hopeless. 

You can goggle for images of stage floors - broadway load ins returned some.

But best, say great and start demanding all the other things you have on broadway! Thats a comparison that could be useful.


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## emathews (May 14, 2018)

*spenserh thanks for moving me to this post. Sounds like I've got some work to do to speak to some people.*


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## emathews (May 14, 2018)

spenserh said:


> We are in the same boat, I was going to rent a floor sander this summer and give that a try. Should I not bother?


I wouldn't bother. What you see is AFTER we've sanded it down.


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