# D-ring or Keeper plate?



## freedomverse (Mar 8, 2013)

For the cable guide on top is there any advantage of using a d-ring instead of this keeper plate? My only guess would be that the thimble might fit through the d-ring for easier setup??
Hanging Hardware


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## gafftapegreenia (Mar 8, 2013)

Not exactly sure what you are asking, but a D-ring is intended to be used WITH a keeper plate. D-rings allow for a place to connect the terminated end of aircraft cable to a scenic unit with a shackle.

A keeper plate, sans D-ring, is typically used when bottom hanging a flat. Using the hardware in the the link you provided, one would attach a bottom hanging iron to the back side, bottom end of the stiles of a Broadway style flat. (Note that the bottom hanging iron is bend in such a way that it will only accept a Broadway style flat) Then, one would use keeper plates at the top of the stile, to keep the aircraft cable with the flat so that it will hang straight. 

On a Hollywood flat, I prefer to put a keeper plate with D ring (or shackle plate, a wonderful improvement) at the inside bottom of the stiles. Then I route the the aircraft cable up the inside center of the stiles, drilling holes through the toggles and ultimately the top rail as I go up. I have found this to be the most effective way to get flats to hang plumb, as you aren't fighting the flats center of gravity, and it also centers the flat parallel to the batten, which can help with the normally tight clearances of fly systems.

Anyway, while bottom hanging a flat is preferable because it puts the flat into compression while hung, most people top hang because it can be hard to get a flat to hang plumb with bottom hanging, unless the method I described is used.

All of this, of course, is IMHO, YMMV. I expect others to chime in soon.


Other useful threads: 
http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/scenery-props-rigging/17919-rigging-hardware-lowes.html
http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/scenery-props-rigging/27538-question-about-hanging-things.html


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## freedomverse (Mar 8, 2013)

Yes, I see that I did not provide complete information. I am hanging Broadway style flats. My plan is to install shackle plates near the bottom on the back of the flat. I think I prefer these because the overall cost will be lower than the standard bottom hanging irons. I was thinking of using the keeper plates in the link installed at the top of the stiles so the aircraft cable can travel through it. 

Alternately, if I understand all my research, instead of the keeper plate I could use a d-ring plate at the top either without the ring or with the ring. My question is this. If I use a D-ring plate with a d-ring then would my pre-made aircraft cable thimbles fit through the d-ring allowing me to remove the aircraft cable for storage between shows? I am thinking of not fiddling with bolts in between shows. Are there any other advantages or disadvantages to a d-ring vs these keeper plates?

And to add one more question... how much hardware do you guys keep on the flats between shows? How do you keep the flats from getting damaged in the truck from the attached hardware?


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## gafftapegreenia (Mar 8, 2013)

I have never known anyone to use a D ring as a top keeper when using bottom hanger irons, and I don't know of a way to use a D ring without a keeper plate, it is intended to be used with one. Even if the thimble does fit through a D ring, I don't think the flat will hang straight, as the flats center of gravity will cause the cable to pull the D ring at an angle away from the top of the flat, and thus the flat will hang on an angle. 

Other's may argue, but a D-ring plate IS a keeper plate. The BMI Supply link just calls the older style a D-ring plate, and the newer, rated styles keeper plates. 

Hardware left on depends upon how often said flats are used. If said flat is going to be reused repeatedly, or is part of a touring package, I'd keep the hardware on the flat. If said flat is going into storage, and it is unknown when it will be used again, I'd be more inclined to remove the hardware for use elsewhere. 

I haven't touched a Broadway style flat since high school, but we just accepted that damage was part of soft cover flats, and we were always prepared to dutchmen and repair flats upon installation. Aside from building some sort of specialized flat transfer rack (which I have seen done, think cafeteria lunch tray cart), I think stacking flats alternating back - front front - back would be safest.


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## blackisthenewblack (Mar 8, 2013)

If you connect your flat to the rigging at the bottom of the flat (using whatever required and rated hardware that you need - including a turnbuckle for adjustment), then you will not want a large hole to feed the rope/GAC through as this will cause the flat to kick the bottom edge backwards. You preferably want something of equal diameter as your rope/GAC to feed through. You will not be able to feed your thimble through it for storage, but it will keep you plumb.


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## Footer (Mar 8, 2013)

Yes, use the D-ring WITH the keeper plate... I always assume whenever you install a d-ring you have to use a keeper plate, I don't know why we are debating it here (unless it is welded on). 

Like so... 



Now there is a way to use the d-ring on top AND have the flat hang correctly. You use your pre-built rigging packages, shackle off to the bottom of the flat, come through the top of the D-ring, out the bottom, and then up to the next d-ring. It basically forces the GAC to hold the d-ring flush to the piece. You have to watch as your picking the piece to ensure none of the d-rings jam up, but it does work.


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## Van (Mar 8, 2013)

As for "How much hardware to leave on...?" If you are using the hardware correctly removal for storage is going to be a pain. You are through-bolting with 2, 1/4-20 bolts, then cutting the bolt flush after sucking the nut into the face of the flat right ? and only using #10 wood screws in the other two holes, right ?


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## freedomverse (Mar 8, 2013)

*Rigging order*

For our next production I need to fly several sets. Five of them are studio flat construction; the heaviest grouping is 250lbs. The others are hybrid flat/soft drops??? that you can read more about in this other thread: http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/...31391-vinyl-printed-drop-scenery-netting.html If you check it out skip down to the bottom as we have tossed the netting idea out the window.

Pick points will be about 4 feet apart. Hardware will be bolted to the scenery. Flats will be attached to each other with loose pin hinges??

I want to do this safely and have tried to be very thorough in my research. I have read Glerum's _Stage Rigging Handbook, _scoured this forum, read several JRClancy white papers, and asked many questions. I know this research does not make me a rigger and want to make sure that I don't kill anyone. We will have experienced help flying our sets from the staff at the college auditorium we are renting. Could you look at my order and tell me if I seem to be on the right track?

Here is the order I am putting together at BMI Supply:

10123119 1/4" Long Link PC Chain ZP 133' Pail
111SPF014 Forged Screw Pin Shackle 1/4"
111THS018 Thimble 1/8" Standard 100/Pk
111NSC018 1/8" Copper Nico Sleeves 10/Pk
09132302 1/8"x500' 7x19 Black Powder Coat GAC
04DR003 Keeper Plate "Stubby"
04SP005 Shackle Plate - 90° Stubby #2030
111TJF386  Forged Turnbuckle 3/8"x6" Jaw/Jaw
12001SC Swager 1/16"-3/16" #1-SC

Here is my 'professional' illustration of what I plan to do:



Should an answer to this question be more appropriate as a private message that is fine with me.


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## tprewitt (Mar 9, 2013)

*Re: Rigging order*

Use wood screws or thru bolts to attach your hardware (not drywall screws) and I think you have that one licked. 

There is a piece of hardware called a "bottom iron", may have other names too [bottom hanger iron, hooked hanger iron], that hooks under the flat. It is prefered as the weight doesn't rest on the fasteners.
.


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## venuetech (Mar 9, 2013)

*Re: Rigging order*

I would forget the chain and just use a short 10" sling over the pipe basket style with a 1/4" shackle to your long sling
You will need to thru-bolt the hardware to the flat. On the bottom rail I prefer a bottom hanging iron, letting it do the work of lifting then the thru-bolt only has to keep it in place.
don't forget to mouse the turnbuckles 
Grouped broadway flats i will tight pin hinge on the face. flip over, then add full width stiffeners 1x4 on edge with tight pin hinges alternating top and bottom on the stiles. if you are constructing in a remote shop you may want to use loose pin hinges so you can take the flats apart to transport them.
did you say these were Hollywood style flats? If so you may need to add a bottom rail of some sort to bolt the lifting hardware to.
you do need to figure just how long your slings need to be. a section drawing would help with that.


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## techieman33 (Mar 9, 2013)

*Re: Rigging order*

If you have to hang things a lot and have the budget I would buy gliders [Verlock, Gripple]s instead of turnbuckles. They're fast to level something out with, and you have tons of adjustability since you can make the cable 3" long or 20' long in a few seconds.


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## freedomverse (Mar 9, 2013)

*Re: Rigging order*


venuetech said:


> did you say these were Hollywood style flats? If so you may need to add a bottom rail of some sort to bolt the lifting hardware to.



The names of these flats is so confusing when differant people you talk to call them different things. Mine are broadway style flats (1x laying on it's face) covered with luan. They are about 1 1\4 inches thick. Sorry if I confused anyone.


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## freedomverse (Mar 9, 2013)

*Re: Rigging order*


techieman33 said:


> If you have to hang things a lot and have the budget I would buy gliders [Verlock, Gripple]s instead of turnbuckles. They're fast to level something out with, and you have tons of adjustability since you can make the cable 3" long or 20' long in a few seconds.



I don't think I have that kind of budget but those sure look nice!! Is there a cheaper source for these?


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## freedomverse (Mar 9, 2013)

*Re: Rigging order*


venuetech said:


> I would forget the chain and just use a short 10" sling over the pipe basket style with a 1/4" shackle to your long sling.



Do you mean something like this? SS60 Spanset 9' Stage Sling - Black


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## danTt (Mar 9, 2013)

*Re: Rigging order*

I like verlocks, but I usually see them used with a crosby clamp as a safety. I've seen ver-locks fail, and it's not the nicest thing. Useful for quick rigging or rigging where you're not entirely sure what height you'll need, but for something like this making picks of the same length is going to be quicker and safer.

Also, you might already own them, but I didn't see wire rope cutters (c7's or c9's) on your shopping list, make sure you have a pair.


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## freedomverse (Mar 9, 2013)

Thank you for your help. I see that the keeper plate is preferred since it keeps the cable so near to the flat. I also see that it is feasible to keep the hardware on between performances. I have started a new thread http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/scenery-props-rigging/31512-rigging-order.html#post278105 that shows what hardware I am planning to order. I would be grateful if you would take a look and tell me if I am on the right track.


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## freedomverse (Mar 9, 2013)

*Re: Rigging order*


danTt said:


> Also, you might already own them, but I didn't see wire rope cutters (c7's or c9's) on your shopping list, make sure you have a pair.



Ah, yes!! Good catch. I added a pair of C7's to my order.


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## derekleffew (Mar 9, 2013)

At the link in post#1, the only difference between a Keeper Plate and a D-Ring Plate appears to be that the Keeper has rounded corners as opposed to the square corners of the D-ring plate. 


Post#6 shows a D-ring plate WITH rounded corners.

In the late 1970s, I was taught, when flying a flat, Broadway to use a bottom hanger iron on the bottom, and then a D-ring plate without D-ring (I don't think Keeper Plate has been invented yet) captured the 1/8" GAC at the top. This method adds some construction complexity, but not all that much since a thimbled eye won't fit thru a D-ring anyway.

Unless I'm missing something, a Keeper Plate IS a D-Ring Plate, only without the D-ring. (EDIT: WHat Greenia said in post#4.) Why stock two parts? Just because one is 3.6% ($0.09) less cost?


Van said:


> ... You are through-bolting with 2, 1/4-20 bolts, then cutting the bolt flush after sucking the nut into the face of the flat right ? ...


I've never done that. I was taught to use a 1" to 1.25" flathead (slotted) bolt thru the face of the 1x-and-canvas-flat with a washer and a hex nut on the back of the iron.


Footer said:


> ... Now there is a way to use the d-ring on top AND have the flat hang correctly. You use your pre-built rigging packages, shackle off to the bottom of the flat, come through the top of the D-ring, out the bottom, and then up to the next d-ring. It basically forces the GAC to hold the d-ring flush to the piece. You have to watch as your picking the piece to ensure none of the d-rings jam up, but it does work.


1. How do you get the thimble through the D-ring?
2. Does wrapping the D-ring not exceed the minimum stated bend radius of the wire rope?


A relevant edict: Always suspend joints under compression, not tension.

Mod note: Threads titled "D-ring or Keeper plate?" and "Rigging Order" have been merged together into this one.
.


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## derekleffew (Mar 9, 2013)

*Re: Rigging order*


freedomverse said:


> I don't think I have that kind of budget but those sure look nice!! Is there a cheaper source for these?


I've not compared prices, but I would suspect a Verlock or similar product from Griplock (the actual manufacturer of Ver Sales' Verlock) or others, would be price-comparable to a turnbuckle, shackle, and installed eye with thimble.

Random Google search reveals 1/8" Verlock Sr. Ring Gripper $32; 1/8" Griplock Ring Gripper $16.95. See also the old thread http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/...7-where-do-you-buy-your-rigging-supplies.html .


NOTE: ControlBooth and its members are offering construction and material suggestions only, based on experience and/or standard industry practice, and are NOT qualified to, or capable of, specifying solutions to specific rigging issues. All construction, materials, and practices must meet or exceed the most stringent of federal, state, and local applicable structural, building, electrical, fire, and life-safety codes.


*When in doubt, ALWAYS consult a qualified professional, in person.​*.


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## venuetech (Mar 9, 2013)

*Re: Rigging order*


freedomverse said:


> Do you mean something like this? SS60 Spanset 9' Stage Sling - Black



no this sling would be just 10 inches eye to eye. very short. something you would make from the GAC and would need to add thimbles, ovals and build time. It is a quick way to get a pick point onto the pipe/batten.

You should talk things over with the venue staff that you will be working with as they would likely have some additional input for your consideration.


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## derekleffew (Mar 9, 2013)

*Re: Rigging order*


venuetech said:


> no this sling would be just 10 inches eye to eye. very short. something you would make from the GAC and would need to add thimbles, ovals and build time. ...


AKA a dogbone. But I'd worry about the short sling staying in place and not sliding along the batten until there was tension on the pick lines. I'd want to wrap the pipe at least once, so would need it to be minimum of (1.9" x 3.14 x 2 = ) ~12" swage to swage. And offers no adjustability. 

A trim chain (but NOT the kind with a mutt hook) is still the preferred method, I suspect.
.


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## freedomverse (Mar 9, 2013)

*Re: Rigging order*

One rigger I was talking to gave me some advice for the connection of the aircraft cable to the trim chain. He said that I could attach the aircraft cable into the last link of the trim chain permanently when I make my loops. The chain would then be wrapped around the batten like my picture and a the shackle would attach the chain to itself at the desired trim. This seems safe and all. Is it a recommended way to go generally? I was thinking that the shackle would connect both ends of the chain and the thimble.


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## derekleffew (Mar 9, 2013)

*Re: Rigging order*


freedomverse said:


> ... I was thinking that the shackle would connect both ends of the chain and the thimble.


In my experience, shackles and chain just don't want to play well together. Only the pin should go through a link. Otherwise, one must use either: overly large chain OR overly small shackle; and still run the risk of side-loading. With one end of the trim chain permanently attached to the lift line, one still retains trimming flexibility by putting the bell of the shackle in the thimble and then the pin through any link, not necessarily the last one, of the chain. ( Or by choking the chain with the shackle, provided a single strand of chain is acceptable/permissible.)

Like this (inverted from Theatre & Stage Equipment Products - Rigging Accessories - Trim Chain ):View attachment 8937


Of course, if the above picture were real, the unused four links would be hanging down, not up.


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## kicknargel (Mar 9, 2013)

gafftapegreenia said:


> Anyway, while bottom hanging a flat is preferable because it puts the flat into compression while hung, most people top hang because it can be hard to get a flat to hang plumb with bottom hanging, unless the method I described is used.



I contend that hanging a wood-framed scenic piece from the bottom member is the ONLY acceptable method. I sure hope most people don't top hang. With a steel frame top-hanging becomes OK.


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## gafftapegreenia (Mar 10, 2013)

Van said:


> You are through-bolting with 2, 1/4-20 bolts, then cutting the bolt flush after sucking the nut into the face of the flat right ? and only using #10 wood screws in the other two holes, right ?



I can't say I've seen that method done much, although I can see it being very useful if used on the bottom rail, as it allows for a completely flush installation. Is that a common West coast method? And would it be acceptable to use flat head stove bolts in the countersunk holes, instead of wood screws? 

I'm almost afraid to admit openly that I have used short lag screws at more than one venue to attach hanger irons. Is this frowned upon?


techieman33 said:


> If you have to hang things a lot and have the budget I would buy gliders [Verlock, Gripple]s instead of turnbuckles. They're fast to level something out with, and you have tons of adjustability since you can make the cable 3" long or 20' long in a few seconds.




I would not use a Gripple for hanging anything more than a banner or small, lightweight decorative element, but that is just personal preference. Maybe it is a completely unjustified and irrational preference on my part, but I am inclined to trust a forged Grip lock more than the Gripple. I've used Grip locks on several occasions, and have been very happy with them, and from walking the show floor at USITT, other companies, such as ZFX, also like the Grip lock. Uncle Bill, on the other hand, does not approve. If your grip/ver lock is the kind with a nut at the top, it is important to mouse this with e-tape, as I have witnessed these finger nuts coming loose during a run from normal flying operation. 


freedomverse said:


> The names of these flats is so confusing when differant people you talk to call them different things. Mine are broadway style flats (1x laying on it's face) covered with luan. They are about 1 1\4 inches thick. Sorry if I confused anyone.



In the common vernacular, a Hollywood, or soft cover flat, is made of 1x on face covered in muslin or canvas. A Hollywood, or hard cover flat, is made of 1x stock on edge covered in a ridgid sheet good, typically luan. What you have is a hybrid of the two, I'm not sure if there is a "proper" name for it, but I would probably just call it a hard cover flat. 


danTt said:


> but I usually see them used with a crosby clamp as a safety.


Smart, I'm going to remember that for future Grip/Ver lock use. 

DerekLeffew The golden flat hardware is all made by TheatricalHardware.com. They are recent (within the last decade?) updates to classic flat hardware. Their biggest claim is that all there hardware is rated. As a note, I have seen silver D-ring plates with rounded corners, just like the golden one made TheatricalHardware.com, except clearly older.

As for why should one stock keeper plates in addition to D ring plates? Not much reason really, except that the "stubby" keeper plates fit nicely on the inside face of 1x3 when used to frame Hollywood flats. 



derekleffew said:


> 2. Does wrapping the D-ring not exceed the minimum stated bend radius of the wire rope?


Exactly the what came to my mind as well.



derekleffew said:


> A trim chain (but NOT the kind with a mutt hook) is still the preferred method, I suspect.


Probably still the most common method, although I have seen some respectable theatres that have started using batten clamps instead of trim chain. 


kicknargel said:


> I contend that hanging a wood-framed scenic piece from the bottom member is the ONLY acceptable method. I sure hope most people don't top hang. With a steel frame top-hanging becomes OK.


I must be honest. I have not personally hung scenic framed flats using top hanging irons, as I know it is greatly preferable to hang scenery under compression as opposed to tension. However, I have seen it done, and I have not yet had anyone implicitly tell me that doing so is forbidden. Did top hanging irons exist before metal framed scenery was commonplace? I hope some other users will chime in with comments on the proper usage of top hanger irons. 


I am grateful for the lively discussion in this thread.


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