# Riding an A-Frame Extension Ladder



## Charc

So this is in my docket for today. I realized, some tips on the best way you have to straddle and sit on the extension portion of the ladder would be awesome. I don't plan on standing for a full call.

I just have to recall how to figure out all the pretzel legging. Once I get nice and comfy, then the fun starts.


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## icewolf08

The most importaint thing is good communication with the people pushing you. I should also really emphasize: PEOPLE. You should not be pushed by one person as it is not generally easy to keep those ladders moving in a straight line and avoid anything that may be on stage. Also, you should make sure that they always push you with the ladder moving the long way (ie. they should push from the rungs). Pushing from the side, you have more tip-over hazard as there is less ladder in that direction (if that makes sense, I didn't get that our very clearly).


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## Dionysus

Just a side note that this is 100% illegal in Canada.
A ministry of Labour inspector can dish out hefty fines for this action.

So if you do this in Canada, DON'T GET CAUGHT


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## DaveySimps

I am not sure that this is even legal in the states. Although very commonplace, I think it is a horrible and dangerous practice that has been tolerated for to long in our industry. I have seen to many people get hurt. It may cost more money and time, but there are many safer and more appropriate ways of focusing, in my opinion.

~Dave


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## cprted

Dionysus said:


> Just a side note that this is 100% illegal in Canada.
> A ministry of Labour inspector can dish out hefty fines for this action.
> 
> So if you do this in Canada, DON'T GET CAUGHT


Really? Do you have a link to relevant regs? Given that labour laws are Provincial matters, are you sure its not just an Ontario thing? We do this all the time in BC.


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## Dionysus

cprted said:


> Really? Do you have a link to relevant regs? Given that labour laws are Provincial matters, are you sure its not just an Ontario thing? We do this all the time in BC.



Ontario very much so. I also know that it is illegal in some other provinces, not 100% for them all... I can't recall the regs 100% off hand, and I am not at home with all my documents.
I'll try to remember to look them up and post them....

I've heard of a few places in Ontario that had these types of ladders and had to get rid of them.


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## cprted

Dionysus said:


> Ontario very much so. I also know that it is illegal in some other provinces, not 100% for them all... I can't recall the regs 100% off hand, and I am not at home with all my documents.
> I'll try to remember to look them up and post them....
> 
> I've heard of a few places in Ontario that had these types of ladders and had to get rid of them.


This is all we get in BC regarding ladders:


BC OHS Regs said:


> 13.4 Manufactured ladders
> 
> A manufactured portable ladder must be marked for the grade of material used to construct the ladder and the use for which the ladder is constructed.
> 
> [Enacted by B.C. Reg. 422/2004, effective January 1, 2005.]
> 13.5 Position and stability
> 
> A ladder must
> 
> (a) be placed on a firm and level base,
> 
> (b) be positioned so that the horizontal distance from the base to vertical plane of support is approximately ¼ of the ladder length,
> 
> (c) have sufficient length to project approximately 1 m (3 ft) above the upper landing to which it provides access, and
> 
> (d) if necessary, be secured to ensure stability during use.
> 
> [Enacted by B.C. Reg. 422/2004, effective January 1, 2005.]
> 13.6 Use restrictions
> 
> (1) If work cannot be done from a ladder without hazard to a worker, a work platform must be provided.
> 
> (2) A worker must not carry up or down a ladder, heavy or bulky objects or any other objects which may make ascent or descent unsafe.
> 
> [Enacted by B.C. Reg. 422/2004, effective January 1, 2005.]



I would definitely be interested in seeing what you guys have in term of regs.


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## gafftaper

Boy this thread makes me nervous. I'm not sure if it should be allowed to continue. I believe these ladders are illegal in the U.S. (I'm pretty sure you haven't been able to buy one in a long time). Having one on wheels is definitely illegal but that didn't stop a lot of old school TD's from building their own rolling platform and strapping on the ladder. However unlike Canada, enforcement of any OSHA rules are usually only enforced AFTER someone *get's killed*. So when you fall and die, someone from OSHA will come buy, fine the theater and take away the ladder. 

There is NO way I would go up one of those ladders. If I walked into a call and they asked me to go up one I would walk right back out. I don't need your money that bad... I want to go home and see my kids at night. You should NEVER work alone at height. What happens if the ladder falls? How long can you hang up there without help? If you fall to the ground, getting you to the hospital quickly could easily be the difference between life and death. The majority of falls from above 6' are fatal. Did everyone get that? The MAJORITY of falls from above 6' are FATAL! Then there's another 20% or so of the falls above 6' that only paralyze you. It's only about 5% of falls above 6' that you can walk away from unharmed. Think about that. 

*How much is your life worth?* Is it worth $600? Eleven foot high rolling scaffold for $569 including free shipping.

EDIT: I'll leave this thread open as I believe there is a good safety discussion here. But if the discussion shifts toward any sort of talk that glorifies how fun it is to be dangrous on a rolling A-frame it's coming down.


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## Lotos

cprted said:


> This is all we get in BC regarding ladders:


 
This is possibly one of those situations where they'll hit you based on what is not written, rather than what is...


BC OHS Regs said:


> _13.4 Manufactured ladders_
> 
> _A manufactured portable ladder must be marked for the grade of material used to construct the ladder and the use for which the ladder is constructed._


Since I've not seen one of these ladders for sale in a donkeys age... I must ask, does each ladder you use for this carry these markings?


BC OHS Regs said:


> _13.5 Position and stability_
> 
> _A ladder must_
> 
> _(a) be placed on a firm and level base,_
> 
> _(b) be positioned so that the horizontal distance from the base to vertical plane of support is approximately ¼ of the ladder length,_
> 
> _(c) have sufficient length to project approximately 1 m (3 ft) above the upper landing to which it provides access, and_
> 
> _(d) if necessary, be secured to ensure stability during use._


(a) and (d) could be called into serious question by a ladder placed on a rolling base. At the discretion of the inspector.


BC OHS Regs said:


> _13.6 Use restrictions_
> 
> _(1) If work cannot be done from a ladder without hazard to a worker, a work platform must be provided._
> 
> _(2) A worker must not carry up or down a ladder, heavy or bulky objects or any other objects which may make ascent or descent unsafe._


Again, an inspector could likely hit you for section (1) due to the definate and real hazards present to the worker at the top of said ladder.


Just a reminder folks, just because the law doesn't say 'Practice X is not to be used' doesn't mean that it's A-ok... Just that nobody's been nailed with a fine for it... Yet.


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## fredthe

gafftaper said:


> I believe these ladders are illegal in the U.S. (I'm pretty sure you haven't been able to buy one in a long time).


These ladders are still made (in the US,) but now they are referred to as Trestle Ladders. They are designed to be used in pairs, with planking between the upright sections. We actually asked one manufacturer (Werner) about their use in the old-fashioned theater sense (without wheels) and were told they were not designed for a person to work from the upright section. Any use for other than their designed purpose would certainly run you afoul of OSHA.

While some may argue whether OSHA applies to them, see Gaff's statement above. If it's not safe, DON'T DO IT!

-Fred


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## fastfreddy

Im gonna have to agree with Gafftapper, in our industry we have been doing silly unsafe and needless things for to long, it is up to us to put a stop to these practices. If you dont have the time to get off a ladder, move it, then resume work in the new location, perhaps you could look at restructuring your work day. I havent had to use my right to refuse work in a long time, and I am glad for that, but I am sure I have been lucky in that regards. Maby you could look up your local laws regarding safety in the theater, and remember, "we've been doing it this way forever" dose'nt mean its right.


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## icewolf08

I am just curious, of all the people who won't roll around on ladders, how many roll around in lifts (ie. Genie AWP/IWP style)? Be honest if you answer.


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## LightingPenguin

icewolf08 said:


> I am just curious, of all the people who won't roll around on ladders, how many roll around in lifts (ie. Genie AWP/IWP style)? Be honest if you answer.



I come down to about 2 or 3' off the ground and then get someone to push me, then go back up.


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## Les

You may also see A-frame ladders regarded to as "sprinkler ladders" or something to that effect, as they are (or were) commonly used by technicians installing and servicing fire sprinklers.

Re: Rolling Base. Several years ago and in my high school days, we received an auditorium renovation and equipment package upgrade. Texas Scenic contracted the job and provided us with a wooden A-Frame ladder. It was used very rarely, usually only during fine focus sessions in adding or fine-tuning gobos which couldn't be done with the electrics flown in. I hated this ladder, not for it's lack of 'idiot proofness' but because it was a PITA to set up and take down. Texas Scenic provided us with a rolling metal base which appeared to be specifically designed for this ladder. The base had a pocket in each corner for the feet to fit into and while it was a pain to get it set up this way (took 2-4 people), it was MUCH more stable on the base. Without the base the ladder would wobble, but with the feet firmly in the pockets it was pretty darn stable. The wheels were locking casters, and it really wasn't that hard just to get off the ladder and move it when you were ready. Especially since we usually didn't have to deal with every single instrument that was hung. IF we rolled it with a person, we would have them climb down to about 4', lower the mast a few feet, roll, lock and repeat. Rolling with someone on the vertical mast is extremely dangerous, especially when factoring in the horizontal forces now acting on the already unstable nature of the mast. Lowering the mast a few feet would also reduce the chances of striking an instrument or other piece of rigging since we would usually raise it a little above the teaser line as to avoid having to over-reach. Carrying instruments up and down this ladder would be a no-no. We lowered the electrics for all that.


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## gafftaper

Alex makes a great point. I admit I used to roll around in a genie when I was young, dumb and we had an ancient genie without interlocks. I also used the scary A frame in college. However I would never do either today. I've been educated and it's not worth it. 

Again get a rolling scaffold. Depending on the height you don't need outriggers. Depending on the size two people can work up there. I got a big 5x8 deck. It's really stable and we could have three people working on top if we needed too. It disassembles quite small and stores in my plywood rack in the shop. My deluxe one with a trap door in the top deck so you can safely climb the inside and stand on two landings on the way up cost about $1200. 

My use of statistics above have been questioned via PM:

I was taught in a rigging class about a year ago. In falls above 6': Less than 10% walk away, a little over 50% die, and about 20% are paralyzed. Leaving around 20% with a serious but not life altering injury. I have no idea where that data comes from. 

In another thread, Whatrigger? says that 80% of all falls REPORTED to OSHA from above 6' are fatal.

Clearly 6' is the magic height and a lot of people are going to die. But the exact number is a little unclear. If anyone has some free time it would be interesting to try to track down the actual statistics.


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## fredthe

gafftaper said:


> In another thread, Whatrigger? says that 80% of all falls REPORTED to OSHA from above 6' are fatal.
> 
> Clearly 6' is the magic height and a lot of people are going to die. But the exact number is a little unclear. If anyone has some free time it would be interesting to try to track down the actual statistics.


I found this here:http://www.anapolschwartz.com/docs/lewinterNJLJ.pdf

> The National Safety Council accident
> statistics establish that falling
> from a height of 11 feet creates a
> 50/50 likelihood of being killed.


However, I haven't been able to find the reference on the National Safety Council website.

I imagine the 80% figure is inflated by people not reporting falls unless they absolutely have to. But, just because you won't die, isn't a reason to do something dangerous.

-Fred


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## cdub260

gafftaper said:


> I was taught in a rigging class about a year ago. In falls above 6': Less than 10% walk away, a little over 50% die, and about 20% are paralyzed. Leaving around 20% with a serious but not life altering injury. I have no idea where that data comes from.



I'm one of the 10% of people who've walked away from a fall over 6 ft. Granted, I fell off a truss, not a ladder but I fell because I was not following proper safety procedures. Nine years later I'm left with pain issues from a permanent injury to both of my knees and a pinched nerve in my back. And I was lucky. I should have died in that fall. There's also still a chance that down the road a ways, my injuries from that fall could end my career.

The full story is posted here:

http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/stage-management/15443-safety-rules.html

If something seems unsafe, it probably is. No job is worth your life or your health.


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## NickJones

I have rolled around in a Genie. Our new one is motorised.
Our A-Frame has wheels, but as soon as the weight is applied to them the wheels retract and so you still have to get off to move it, but you can move it with one person.
Nick


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## coolbeam

Charc said:


> ...I just have to recall how to figure out all the pretzel legging. ...


Some foam or even carpet scraps taped around the top rung helps comfort immensely. Use a fireman's leg lock, but be aware this violates OSHA's "three points of contact" rule. I wouldn't go up unless I knew and trusted the two (at least) ground ladder crew.

Werner-Ladders.com - 16&rsquo; FIBERGLASS EXTENSION TRESTLE-28&rsquo; by Werner Ladders


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## fredthe

Coolbeam,
The ladder you posted the photo of is the one I was told by the manufacturer is NOT rated for working from the center extension section.
While foam or carpet might make it more comfortable, it would make it even less safe than it already is, as it would be modifying the ladder, which is strictly forbidden. It would also make it difficult to securely grab the top rung should you need to. In short, the key is safety, not comfort.
It's far more comfortable to stand on a scaffold, anyway.
-Fred


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## kiwitechgirl

icewolf08 said:


> I am just curious, of all the people who won't roll around on ladders, how many roll around in lifts (ie. Genie AWP/IWP style)? Be honest if you answer.



Happily I don't ever work in venues that have the big rolling ladders - in fact I think they're now illegal here in NZ - but when I have in the past I refused to be wheeled around on one, no matter how much I trusted the people on the bottom of the ladder. I'm usually pretty happy to be rolled around in a genie; it does to a certain extent depend on the lift and the people at the bottom of it though! There's one Genie in a venue I work in that I won't be rolled around in - and I'm not alone in this as while it is perfectly stable, it really doesn't feel it - but then the flip side of that is that there's another venue which has a Cougar lift and I'm completely happy to be rolled around all the time in that as it's exceptionally stable.

Just to add another layer, what about tallescopes? They're illegal here (for some stupid reason which we've never been able to fathom) but I used one on a daily basis when I was working in England and again, I was generally happy to be rolled around in it provided it wasn't up too high and I trusted the people on the bottom - people who won't be rolled around on an A-frame, what about one of these?


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## mstaylor

What is a tallescope?


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## DaveySimps

They are a handy tool when you cannot afford a Genie.

~Dave

tallescopes by Aluminium Access Products


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## Charc

Many hours on the ladder later... everything in the air is done!

Once you figure it out and develop systems, it's not that bad. I'd say the worst part was being sick.

The ladder on wheels approach is in fact tried and true, but things woulda moved a lot faster on a rolling scaff tower.


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## cdub260

Charc said:


> The ladder on wheels approach is in fact tried and true, but things woulda moved a lot faster on a rolling scaff tower.



Tried and true does not automatically translate to safe. "Because that's the way we've always done it." is not sufficient reason to engage in unsafe work practices.

Try to bear that in mind as you move forward in your career.


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## DaveySimps

cdub260 said:


> Tried and true does not automatically translate to safe. "Because that's the way we've always done it." is not sufficient reason to engage in unsafe work practices.
> 
> Try to bear that in mind as you move forward in your career.



I could not agree more.

~Dave


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## jwl868

US OSHA ladder safety tips

Portable Ladder Safety Tips


OSHA regs on ladders:

29 Code of Federal Regulations

1910.25 Portable wood ladders

1910.26 Portable metal ladders

1910.29 Manually propelled mobile ladder stands and scaffolds (towers)
"...All scaffold casters shall be provided with a positive wheel and/or swivel lock to prevent movement." 

1926.1053 Ladders
"...Ladders shall not be moved, shifted, or extended while occupied."

The OSHA ladder regs are not consistent about movement of the ladder while it is occupied. The General Industry regs (29 CFR 1910) are silent on the topic. But the construction regs (29 CFR 1926) are explicit: "Ladders shall not be moved, shifted, or extended while occupied."


Joe


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## fredthe

kiwitechgirl said:


> Just to add another layer, what about tallescopes?


At one time, tallescopes were available in the US, and they seemed (to me at least) to be a reasonable compromise between scaffolding and a ladder. However, they are now only available in the UK (AFAIK). Does anyone know why they disappeared from the US?

-Fred


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## fredthe

jwl868 said:


> 1910.29 Manually propelled mobile ladder stands and scaffolds (towers)
> "...All scaffold casters shall be provided with a positive wheel and/or swivel lock to prevent movement."
> 
> 1926.1053 Ladders
> "...Ladders shall not be moved, shifted, or extended while occupied."
> 
> The OSHA ladder regs are not consistent about movement of the ladder while it is occupied.


To me, this seems perfectly consistent. A ladder can have wheels. If it does, they must be locking. You can't use them when the ladder is occupied. You can only use them to position the ladder when unoccupied.

-Fred


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## Dionysus

Ontario OHSA

*83.* When a ladder is being used it shall,
(a) be placed on a *firm footing* and secured against slipping;
(b) if the ladder is between six and nine metres in length, be securely fastened or be held in place by one or more workers while being used;
(c) if the ladder exceeds nine metres in length, be securely fastened or stabilized to prevent it from tipping or falling;
(d) when not securely fastened, be inclined so that the horizontal distance from the top support to the foot of the ladder is not less than one-quarter and not more than one-third of the length of the ladder; and
(e) if the ladder is likely to be endangered by traffic, have a worker stationed at its foot to direct such traffic or have barriers or warning signs placed at its foot. O. Reg. 67/93, s. 83.

*89.* A scaffold mounted on castors or wheels, other than a movable working platform to which subsection 94 (1) applies, shall,
(a) have a height which does not exceed three times the least lateral dimension of the scaffold,
(i) measured at the base, or
(ii) measured between the outriggers;
(b) be equipped with a suitable braking device on each castor or wheel; and
(c) *have the brakes applied *when,
(i) any worker is on the scaffold or the working platform of the scaffold, or
(ii) the scaffold is unattended. O. Reg. 67/93, s. 89.

Inspectors I've talked to confirmed that this rule applies to any work platform of that sort (a ladder with wheels).


*26.* Sections 26.1 to 26.9 apply where a worker is exposed to any of the following hazards:
1. Falling more than 3 metres.
2. Falling more than 1.2 metres, if the work area is used as a path for a wheelbarrow or similar equipment.
3. Falling into operating machinery.
4. Falling into water or another liquid.
5. Falling into or onto a hazardous substance or object.
6. Falling through an opening on a work surface.

26.1 to 26.9 talk about the need for guardrails, etc, and the need for travel restraint, fall restraint, fall arrest, and PFDs.


If I wanted I'm sure I could dig up way more...But it's a HUGE document, with links to other documents. And I don't care enough.
It should also be noted that it is required when climbing a ladder to maintain 
*"three points of contact"* at all times. Thus you cannot carry anything in your hand.


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## gafftaper

It all comes down to Fred's basic point. These ladders are not designed to be used they way they are commonly used in our industry. That makes them illegal to use according to OSHA standards. Furthermore this is AMERICA. You have rights as an employee. If you are told you have to use a dangerous ladder, or if your employer refuses to buy you something else you have a very strong case to file with OSHA against your employer. You can't be fired because you are protected by industrial safety whistle blower laws. You have the right to not be required to risk your life using illegal equipment. 
 
Why should *you* be required to risk your life so that "the show can go on". It's been done this way for a long time, but we can change it if we want to. Stand up for yourself. Don't accept that the only way to do your job is the dangerous way. I don't see Directors, actors, designers, artistic directors, or anyone else risking their life so that the show can go on. Why should YOU? Are you expendable? Is your life worth less than the cost of a scafold to your employer? 

Unfortunately we are our own worst enemies. We accept that this is the way it's done and I'm the one who has to climb the ladder of death so that the lights can be hung. This is NOT the 1500's and you are not a slave. Your life is far more important than any silly little show. Stand up for yourself. Draw the line and ask your board of directors or artistic director to come in the theater and show you how safe the ladder is to work on. If they won't buy you a scaffold because it's the right thing to do, point out the financial benefits. If you die how much will they have to pay your family after the lawsuit for the OSHA violations? If you are injured how much will the settlement be? Or they could purchase a safe way for you to do your job for $600. I don't care how poor your theater is you can squeeze $600 out of the budget somewhere, somehow. I assure you if your artistic director was the one climbing the ladder they would find a way to buy a scaffold by the end of the week. 

We had one of these scary old ladders in college. A few years ago I applied for the job. I told them in the interview I would not take the job if they did not agree to purchase a scaffold. While I didn't get the job, I meant what I said and I would not have taken it without a scaffold. My life and my family are worth far more to me than any job or show. I encourage you to do the same. 

If you are a student and you are asked to climb one of these ladders at school. I beg you to call the districts Risk Management office and report it. There is no excuse for students doing dangerous work on an illegal ladder.

You have rights! Stand up for yourself and claim them. If everyone stood up and said enough is enough, we could get rid of all those old ladders by the end of the season.


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## renegadeblack

1) To whomever it was who asked the question, I very often ride a genie at trim height. I've also occasionally ridden one up at height because with the outriggers get in the way. There's one very specific location where I have to do this and one side of the genie is against a wall and the outriggers are out on the other side... the genie we had before that one had no outriggers and has been condemned by the fire marshall...

2) I don't do ladders. I refuse. They scare the crap out of me. One time there was no one else I could send up the ladder so I started heading up to replace the lamp in a S4. The bottom of the box fell out, lamp smashed to the floor, and I took that as my cue to come down. 

The only time that I did something hazardous on a ladder was putting some wires back up over the crown molding after a show, probably a 30-foot A-frame and I had been going at this thing for about 20 minutes trying to push the wires up with a pole and eventually, was so grounded and at peace with the world, that I stood on the little platform on the top. When I started the reason that it took so long was because I wouldn't do that, but eventually, it happened. The little old lady who was watching and waiting to lockup making all sorts of ooh noises when the wires fell didn't help either,


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## shiben

The college I am at right now has 2 Aframes, and a genie which is never used because the battery is worn out and no one wants to buy a new one. Our current space has a trim of 16'. I have been up and pushed around in all of our devices, and i find it rather terrifying. Is the general consensus that this is illegal in the US? I feel like extension ladders are kind of our fate in our space, what with 3/4 of the lighting positions above seating, and I dont like that much either.


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## BillESC

A stage I frequently work at has a Genie lift and we've come up with the perfect solution for rolling/moving the unit at trim height.

We purchased four piano casters. These are three wheeled triangle units made of steel with a center detent. One goes under each outrigger. We crank the outriggers down until the fail safe lights go out. Works extremely well.


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## Studio

Make sure those casters are well attached, if one slips of then the whole lift falls.


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## renegadeblack

BillESC said:


> A stage I frequently work at has a Genie lift and we've come up with the perfect solution for rolling/moving the unit at trim height.
> 
> We purchased four piano casters. These are three wheeled triangle units made of steel with a center detent. One goes under each outrigger. We crank the outriggers down until the fail safe lights go out. Works extremely well.



That sounds like it's probably a good idea... but I'm not quite sure if it completely defeats the purpose of the outriggers...


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## Charc

renegadeblack said:


> That sounds like it's probably a good idea... but I'm not quite sure if it completely defeats the purpose of the outriggers...



The purpose of outriggers are to extend the base of the unit to prevent tipping. The base would still be larger, and I'd bet the risk of some wheel rolling in a tipping situation would be minimal.

I mean, I've only worked with a genie a couple of times, but in all of my experience, we never took the thing to ground height before repositioning, we just positioned with someone in the air. (And we had outriggers without a deployment sensor too.)


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## calkew5

Our resident non-profit theatre has two spaces. In both, the FOH positions are not catwalks or coves or what have you, but iron pipe mounted on the ceiling over the seats. You have to get to it with a ladder. Both spaces have a FOH ladder, the taller of which is an extension A-frame, and yes, they are placed on (obviously) non-OSHA approved wooden carts, one one each side, and the ladder straddles several rows of seats - allowing it to move horizontally.

Fortunately, I'm never in a position where I could be convinced to ride the extension, since working height is only a few feet above the joint of the ladder. The extension is really just a helpful handhold and body support. 

I've never felt unsafe on these ladders, and I don't really know what the alternative would be, except to have a crew pick the ladder up every time we needed to move it. A scaffold wouldn't fit. A plain old extension ladder would be easier to move but not that safe to work from.

Which brings us to the reason that many theatre continue in unsafe practices like rolling ladders: they are chronically understaffed. Our entire lighting crew is two people, for instance.

I would never do something I didn't feel safe doing, but that's the problem: after a while, things stop bothering you like they should. In college, my TD said that they day you stop being scared of power tools is the day you cut your hand off.


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## BillESC

It does not defeat the purpose of the outriggers, they are in position and uncer load. The piano caster assemblies simply allow them to roll.


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## FMEng

shiben said:


> The college I am at right now has 2 Aframes, and a genie which is never used because the battery is worn out and no one wants to buy a new one. Our current space has a trim of 16'. I have been up and pushed around in all of our devices, and i find it rather terrifying. Is the general consensus that this is illegal in the US? I feel like extension ladders are kind of our fate in our space, what with 3/4 of the lighting positions above seating, and I don't like that much either.




I have comfortably and safely climbed 400 foot radio towers for my employer. I am trained on and have operated 80 foot boom lifts, scissor lifts, and Genies. I obviously don't mind heights, but I do not like extension ladders at all. You won't get me on one!

If your Genie is a substitute for an extension ladder, I would forcefully raise the battery issue. If replacement is denied, then I would contact the school's safety officer or risk manager. College should be a safe place for students and employees, period. A few hundred dollars for batteries now, or a million dollar lawsuit for an injury later. Is that a tough choice? That this is even up for debate makes me mad.

Also, if you are uncomfortable doing something, listen to that little voice and don't do it. No show is worth risking someone's injury or death.


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## jwl868

fredthe said:


> To me, this seems perfectly consistent. A ladder can have wheels. If it does, they must be locking. You can't use them when the ladder is occupied. You can only use them to position the ladder when unoccupied.
> 
> -Fred



I wasn't very clear with my comment: 29 CFR 1910.25 Portable wood ladders and 1910.26 Portable metal ladders deal with portable ladders, like step ladders and extension ladders. But the regs are silent about movement while occupied. 29 CFR 1926.1053 Ladders deals with many of the same topics, including step ladders and extension ladders, but is explicit that they are not to be moved while occupied.


Joe


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## Footer

OSHA has been brought up many times in this thread. While I am at a community theatre, I am the only paid employee that works onstage. 

Question to the community.... what laws prevent my volunteers from using the ladder in New York State?


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## gafftaper

Sadly, OSHA law only applies to employees and as far as I know most state law is the same. You can send 12 year old students and 60 year old volunteers into any dangerous situation you want without violating OSHA law. However most people don't know that. Tell your supervisor that OSHA says it's illegal to continue using the ladder in this way. They won't think to ask, "Yes but is it illegal for the students to use it?" If they do you really don't want to work there. 

Fortunately, the multi-million dollar lawsuit won't care if OSHA covered them or not.


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## shiben

Well hold on. I think the lawsuit wont, but the judge will. If your doing something that is proper under OSHA, then I doubt that the judge is going to find against the employer. And if your a student, following OSHA guidelines, its gonna be hard for someone to say they could have kept you safer other than having someone else do it.


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## fredthe

shiben said:


> Well hold on. I think the lawsuit wont, but the judge will. If your doing something that is proper under OSHA, then I doubt that the judge is going to find against the employer. And if your a student, following OSHA guidelines, its gonna be hard for someone to say they could have kept you safer other than having someone else do it.


Actually, if you look at the link I posted earlier, just following OSHA isn't necessarily a defense. If they have any inkling that it's unsafe, they can be held liable.

-Fred


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## cprted

You may not run afoul of OHS regs, but you can bet your boots you would be found civilly liable if something were to happen to a volunteer carrying out activities deemed unsafe by Worker's Comp.


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## fastfreddy

I also work in a theater that has volunteers, but they all have to go through training before volunteering, and they also sign a form saying they will follow all the laws and acts like they were employees. Pretty much anyone who does not go through our training does not do anything in the air. We do have certain theatre groups who have been using the theatre for 20 years, but they take safety as seriously as we do. I do feel comfortable sending our volunteers anywhere I would send our paid staff.


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## church

The Green Book in Ontario also has a clause that erquires the employer to take all reasonable precautions to ensure the safety of the employee. So just because you think you followed the letter of a reg does not mean that you are in the clear. Also Canada has Bill C45 in place which allows for a supervisor or manager to be charged under the criminal code up to and including manslaughter or second degree murder if they tell workers to do something unsafe or not to use the ppe etc. Obviously criminal code requires much higher standard of evidence than civil code but I do not imigane anyone wants to find out the hard way.


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## jwl868

Footer said:


> OSHA has been brought up many times in this thread. While I am at a community theatre, I am the only paid employee that works onstage.
> 
> Question to the community.... what laws prevent my volunteers from using the ladder in New York State?



Just as a followup to gafftaper's response, US OSHA applies to private employers and employees. Each US agency may have their own occupational health and safety rules, but most use OSHA. Public employees are not covered under US OSHA, homever, many states bring public employees into the program through state OSHA regulations. 

In any case, a volunteer or a student is not protected by OSHA. (Though for students, I would think that there is a basic school administration policy for the health and safety of students. For example, I would hope that the wood shop has safety procedures.)

Joe


----------



## JChenault

gafftaper said:


> Sadly, OSHA law only applies to employees and as far as I know most state law is the same. You can send 12 year old students and 60 year old volunteers into any dangerous situation you want without violating OSHA law. However most people don't know that. Tell your supervisor that OSHA says it's illegal to continue using the ladder in this way. They won't think to ask, "Yes but is it illegal for the students to use it?" If they do you really don't want to work there.
> 
> Fortunately, the multi-million dollar lawsuit won't care if OSHA covered them or not.



My understanding is that washington state law has regulations about minors on ladders. If that is correct you can't send your 12 year student up a ladder - That 60 year old volunteer must be assumed to be able to look out for himself.


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## SteveB

BillESC said:


> It does not defeat the purpose of the outriggers, they are in position and uncer load. The piano caster assemblies simply allow them to roll.



Bill

I have to say that I'm surprised you would recommend this idea, especially here on a forum populated with a lot of high school and college students that rely on the advise of professionals. It certainly circumvents the use that Genie considers a safe practice and is not something I would even suggest to a fellow professional. 

One of the issues I have concerns the operating system of a standard Genie with interlocks for the outriggers. Having owned one and used it for years, when you crank the outriggers to get a green light, most of the system weight is still on the basic wheels, not the outriggers. This is obvious in the fact that unlike the older Genies, the top of the outrigger where it is inserted into the slot, is not required to make actual contact with the inside of the top of the slot in order for the light to activate thus, in my experience, much of the system weight is NOT on the actual outriggers. The situation you describe seemingly would allow the outriggers to not have a firm base (having been placed on casters) in the event that the Genie starts to topple. I have SEEN this occur when the Genie "rocks" from the load shifting, the outriggers often then become supporting structures as they do (finally) make contact with the outrigger slot. 

This is actually one of the reasons I dislike the current crop of Genies (as compared to the original versions without interlocks), beside the fact that they are lighter with more play in the mast, the outriggers do not support as well. Given the fact that the new versions have outriggers that are shorter, it seems that Genies has cut the safety margins to a slim level in order to make the device useful with shorter outriggers. I would be even less likely to want to use a caster set under the supports as a result.

I know for a fact that IATSE (at least Local One) is very proactive to get the practice stopped of moving technicians around in a personal lift and/or ladder that is not designed to be moved while extended. There are plenty of devices designed for such purposes and it is a safe operating practice we all need to follow.

Steve Bailey
Brooklyn College


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## gafftaper

shiben said:


> Well hold on. I think the lawsuit wont, but the judge will. If your doing something that is proper under OSHA, then I doubt that the judge is going to find against the employer. And if your a student, following OSHA guidelines, its gonna be hard for someone to say they could have kept you safer other than having someone else do it.



OSHA simply doesn't cover non-employees. That's a lot different than saying it's okay for a student to do things OSHA bans. It's sort of assumed you won't use students and volunteers for things that an employee is not allowed to do. A law suit is going to point to the OSHA regs and say, "This is too dangerous for employees so you have students do it?" You may end up paying double! 

Also want to clarify. That there are about 20 states that have their own occupational safety laws. OSHA is a minimum but you are allowed to add to them and make the stricter. Also Idaho is the only state to have occupational safety laws that apply directly to rigging.


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## Footer

gafftaper said:


> and say, "This is too dangerous for employees so you have students do it?" You may end up paying double!



Playing devils advocate.... 

What if that student is replaced by a volunteer who is a 45 year old man and has a PhD in nuclear engineering? Can we not assume he knew the risks before he took on whatever task was put infront of him?


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## gafftaper

What Footer you want to be an attorney now? 

The point I was trying to make... although I admit poorly... is that if a student or volunteer falls to their death you are not going to be protected from lawsuits because they weren't covered by OSHA. On the contrary, the lawsuit may actually be worse because it could be implied that you were deliberately dodging the law by having people who aren't covered by OSHA do the work.


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## FMEng

While OSHA laws don't cover students, an educational institution should use those regulations as MINIMUM standards for work safety. Of course, that's just my opinion.

Many states have work place safety laws that far exceed OSHA regs, and they could apply to non-employees. Washington State's fall protection laws are much more restrictive than the federal laws.


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## jonliles

Footer said:


> Playing devils advocate....
> 
> What if that student is replaced by a volunteer who is a 45 year old man and has a PhD in nuclear engineering? Can we not assume he knew the risks before he took on whatever task was put infront of him?




Hey Footer-
I don't have my PhD (though it is a degree in Nuclear Engineering, and I a still have a few years to go until I am 45.


gafftaper said:


> My use of statistics above have been questioned via PM:
> 
> I was taught in a rigging class about a year ago. In falls above 6': Less than 10% walk away, a little over 50% die, and about 20% are paralyzed. Leaving around 20% with a serious but not life altering injury. I have no idea where that data comes from.
> 
> In another thread, Whatrigger? says that 80% of all falls REPORTED to OSHA from above 6' are fatal...



All of these statistics can be found on the Bureau of Labor Stats (assuming you are in the US) at U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics . It does take a bit of research, but it is there.

I repair Gas Turbine power plants around the world. In the Energy sector we are required to do at-a-minimum annual training on Fall Prevention, and more often than not, refresher training each time we go to a power plant or on to a new project. Riding on anything at height is grounds for IMMEDIATE DISMASSAL. I carry that same philosphy to the 501(c)(3) Theatre and at the High School I volunteer at.

Here is more information from OSHA: Safety and Health Topics: Fall Protectionhttp://www.osha.gov/SLTC/fallprotection/index.html

And a website from the UK:
Falls from height: Statistics Falls from height: Statistics

That being said, being at height is DANGEROUS, riding around at height is EXPONETIALLY MORE DANGEROUS. I’ve witness too many near misses to ever consider this.

I have seen what a 45 foot fall does to a body. We had to recover a young sailor once. He fell 4 decks down a ventilation shaft. It was not pretty.


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## LightStud

SteveB said:


> I know for a fact that IATSE (at least Local One) is very proactive to get the practice stopped of moving technicians around in a personal lift and/or ladder that is not designed to be moved while extended.


Regardless of the safety issues, one might suggest that those making $30+ per hour have a financial interest in prolonging the duration of their calls, and thus are willing to go up and down 15+ times when focusing an electric of 30 fixtures. One could argue that the fatigue and monotony involved makes going up and down less safe than rolling at height.


SteveB said:


> There are plenty of devices designed for such purposes and it is a safe operating practice we all need to follow.


Please cite some examples, as the only ones I'm aware of are the heavy and expensive self-propelled AWP models unavailable to small theatre companies.


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## cprted

LightStud said:


> Regardless of the safety issues, one might suggest that those making $30+ per hour have a financial interest in prolonging the duration of their calls, and thus are willing to go up and down 15+ times when focusing an electric of 30 fixtures.


 Whether I'm getting paid $11/hr or $40/hr, safety come first. Period.


LightStud said:


> One could argue that the fatigue and monotony involved makes going up and down less safe than rolling at height.


If the device isn't designed to have someone rolled at height and thus has an unacceptable tipping potential, it isn't safe no matter how fatigued you may or may not be.


LightStud said:


> Please cite some examples, as the only ones I'm aware of are the heavy and expensive self-propelled AWP models unavailable to small theatre companies.


Don't put a price tag on your safety. The number one rule should always be to go home in one piece. No show is worth getting hurt for.


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## shiben

Of course not. But the point remains that a small community theater, or a small college theater program like mine can barely afford to get a few new instruments each year, much less a big, expensive lift. Its just not fiscally possible. What are good solutions for this type of situation? We have a scaffolding, but its not usable in our black box right now because of how seating is arranged. That said, neither are our AFrames. Actually, what is a good option for this type of situation? Extension ladders have been the traditional means, but I have heard bad things about them and working with lights on them.


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## SteveB

"Regardless of the safety issues, one might suggest that those making $30+ per hour have a financial interest in prolonging the duration of their calls, and thus are willing to go up and down 15+ times when focusing an electric of 30 fixtures. One could argue that the fatigue and monotony involved makes going up and down less safe than rolling at height."

I take exception to this statement. I understand the economics of the small theater company, having started my career in such venues, but cannot fathom an attitude that assumes that because it takes longer to be constantly going up and down, having to un-load the Genie outriggers to move, then re-set them, that the crew is going to be suffering from "fatigue and monotony" and are going to more prone to getting hurt then if they roll around, ignoring all safety concerns, simply to get the call over with faster ?. 

If you believe that, then I would suggest perhaps that you find a different career and as jonlilies stated, you will shortly find that most other industries that use similar equipment, are generally much more safety oriented (not that everyone follows the safety guidelines) and it will be an education to you. Just because we work in theater, with it's often times lack of funding, CANNOT continue to be an excuse to ignore safe use of equipment

"Please cite some examples, as the only ones I'm aware of are the heavy and expensive self-propelled AWP models unavailable to small theater companies".

We had our stage deck replaced and had a huge fight with the architect involved to get the floor designed to be strong enough to allow use of our JLG powered lift. His suggestion was that we stop using the JLG and we essentially told him to stuff it. The floor got it's extra layer of 3/4" plywood. We purchased this lift as we had general manager that understood that safety is not something you practice when funding allows. If you cannot afford a lift that allows a person to roll while extended, or have circumstances that make such a device impractical, then get used to the idea of using the correct and safe equipment for the job. Any other reasons for not following safe and proper use of ladders and man-lifts are simply excuses that might someday get someone killed.

SB


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## FortMacTech

In Alberta you have to protect the public (volunteers, audience, etc) as much as your employees. I find it troubling that people will quibble over details rather than look after safety. Basic hazard and risk assessment must become the norm in our industry before the authorities force us to follow their rules that they make up for us. Another troubling stat in Alberta is the number of fatalities from falls at level as well as falls at height. For the people working above seats, you need to watch fall protection videos that show what happens when a person lands on a chair. You will never take a chance again....!


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## mstaylor

shiben said:


> Of course not. But the point remains that a small community theater, or a small college theater program like mine can barely afford to get a few new instruments each year, much less a big, expensive lift. Its just not fiscally possible. What are good solutions for this type of situation? We have a scaffolding, but its not usable in our black box right now because of how seating is arranged. That said, neither are our AFrames. Actually, what is a good option for this type of situation? Extension ladders have been the traditional means, but I have heard bad things about them and working with lights on them.


What is the height of your electrics over the seating?


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## SHARYNF

More people die slipping in the bath tub in the US each year 341 than falling off a ladder 300. In addition the fatalities are not from people at high heights, or moving the ladder etc, but from over reaching. 

It may really shock you that more people die each year in the US from improper medical practice than from heart disease or froj cancer

"Shocking statistical evidence is cited by Gary Null PhD, Caroly Dean MD ND, Martin Feldman MD, Debora Rasio MD and Dorothy Smith PhD in their recent paper Death by Medicine - October 2003, released by the Nutrition Institute of America.

"A definitive review and close reading of medical peer-review journals, and government health statistics shows that American medicine frequently causes more harm than good. The number of people having in-hospital, adverse drug reactions (ADR) to prescribed medicine is 2.2 million. Dr. Richard Besser, of the CDC, in 1995, said the number of unnecessary antibiotics prescribed annually for viral infections was 20 million. Dr. Besser, in 2003, now refers to tens of millions of unnecessary antibiotics. The number of unnecessary medical and surgical procedures performed annually is 7.5 million. The number of people exposed to unnecessary hospitalization annually is 8.9 million. The total number of iatrogenic deaths shown in the following table is 783,936. It is evident that the American medical system is the leading cause of death and injury in the United States. The 2001 heart disease annual death rate is 699,697; the annual cancer death rate, 553,251.

According to the NIA's report, over 784,000 people die annually due to medical mistakes. Comparatively, the 2001 annual death rate for heart disease was 699,697 and the annual death rate for cancer was 553,251."

So you are more likely to die from the medical system than you would ever imaging. 

So the main reason not to fall of the ladder might be not the fall but the hospital visit after the fall ;-)))))

Sharyn


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## soundman

SHARYNF said:


> More people die slipping in the bath tub in the US each year 341 than falling off a ladder 300. In addition the fatalities are not from people at high heights, or moving the ladder etc, but from over reaching.
> .....
> So you are more likely to die from the medical system than you would ever imaging.
> 
> So the main reason not to fall of the ladder might be not the fall but the hospital visit after the fall ;-)))))
> 
> Sharyn



When I play craps I place money on the pass line and on four. The odds of hitting four are slim but it pays well when it does which adds excitement. I for one like to keep the gambling on the casino floor with a drink in my hand NOT while at work in the air. I will admit I get pushed around at heights in man lifts and sometimes carry things up ladders but only when the conditions are favorable. I wouldn't want to carry a speaker up a ladder but I could handle a scroller power supply. The same way if I was working in a space where the stage was not flat I would bounce the lift. 

As for telling the administration about the expensive cost of some one getting hurt, I prefer to ask them if they will make the call to the family or clean up any mess. Putting a dollar number on someones life means it goes into the budget, making it ethical goes into the soul.


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## gafftapegreenia

Here's an anecdote I'd like to share about riding in man-lifts.

My university participates in ACTF, Region 3. Two years ago at load in we were pushing an electrician around in an elevated Handy Herman(think Genie on steroids). In our feedback we learned we had been docked crucial points for pushing a man around at height.


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## soundman

gafftapegreenia said:


> Here's an anecdote I'd like to share about riding in man-lifts.
> 
> My university participates in ACTF, Region 3. Two years ago at load in we were pushing an electrician around in an elevated Handy Herman(think Genie on steroids). In our feedback we learned we had been docked crucial points for pushing a man around at height.



We participated in the same region, ACTF load in rehearsals were one of the few times when we would bounce the genie for that exact reason.


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## Footer

gafftapegreenia said:


> Here's an anecdote I'd like to share about riding in man-lifts.
> 
> My university participates in ACTF, Region 3. Two years ago at load in we were pushing an electrician around in an elevated Handy Herman(think Genie on steroids). In our feedback we learned we had been docked crucial points for pushing a man around at height.



They would dock you but would not stop you.... I think that sums up the entire argument.


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## RichMoore

I have been reading all of this with great interest and it seems that unlike everyone else on this board, I am a fan of A-frames. As some of you may remember a couple of my stories involving A-frame ladders that caused a few sphincters to contract to the point that needles would not have been able to be pounded into that particular orifice, but I do have a couple of questions for which I would love to have honest answers........before this is considered to be praising the dreaded A-frame and this thread is pulled.

What other method of elevating yourself would you use, when...1.) a Genie can't get there....2.) there is no room or time to build a scaffold...3.) the house opens in 30 minutes and the lamp in a key light just blew in a dead hung house? Are you going to A.) refuse to fix it and go home...B.) tell the actors to change their blocking and move into a lighted area...C.) cancel the show....or D.)STFU...climb up the ladder and do your job?

I know what I would do.........what would you do?


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## Grog12

SHARYNF said:


> More people die slipping in the bath tub in the US each year 341 than falling off a ladder 300. In addition the fatalities are not from people at high heights, or moving the ladder etc, but from over reaching.



What are the statistics on life changing injuries for the same to instances?


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## fredthe

RichMoore said:


> I know what I would do.........what would you do?


If it's a straight A-frame, no problem. As long as the base is on sound and level footing, go on up. This is the intended purpose for an A-frame ladder. It's when you roll around on it, hang from a center extension on a trestle ladder, etc. that people will take exception.

If you can't safely access it, then your choice is to hold the house until it can be safely fixed, or block around it. Better a show delayed for safety, than one cancelled for injury or death.

-Fred


----------



## Footer

RichMoore said:


> What other method of elevating yourself would you use, when...1.) a Genie can't get there....2.) there is no room or time to build a scaffold...3.) the house opens in 30 minutes and the lamp in a key light just blew in a dead hung house? Are you going to A.) refuse to fix it and go home...B.) tell the actors to change their blocking and move into a lighted area...C.) cancel the show....or D.)STFU...climb up the ladder and do your job?
> 
> I know what I would do.........what would you do?



When you do a lamp check pre-show you should always have enough time to get whatever troubleshooting needs to be done. I always say lamp check is half hour before anyone hits the stage and could run an hour if I have issues. With 2 people you can get a scaff tower up and down in 20 minutes. A bit of prep goes a long way. If you have to hold the house... hold the house. If go is at 8, and you did lamp check at 6:30, you should have more then enough time to do what you need to do.


----------



## PeytonJr

FMEng said:


> While OSHA laws don't cover students, an educational institution should use those regulations as MINIMUM standards for work safety. Of course, that's just my opinion.
> 
> Many states have work place safety laws that far exceed OSHA regs, and they could apply to non-employees. Washington State's fall protection laws are much more restrictive than the federal laws.



My school has all students in the tech class watch a video on relevant topics and then some, then they have to pass a test on the facts in the video to be able to work in class. If you don't pass the test, you don't get points for participation and you fail.

Do you have a source for the fall protection laws? I wanna read up. I'd imagine that they would be here, but i cant find it.


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## mstaylor

Try this. OSHA's A-Z Index Page You have to read multible locations to cover all the proper info. Some is in the industrial codes and others are in the general industry section.


----------



## KeepOnTruckin

BillESC said:


> A stage I frequently work at has a Genie lift and we've come up with the perfect solution for rolling/moving the unit at trim height.
> 
> We purchased four piano casters. These are three wheeled triangle units made of steel with a center detent. One goes under each outrigger. We crank the outriggers down until the fail safe lights go out. Works extremely well.



Sorry to quote from several pages, back. Let me just say that Officially, Genie Industries specifically prohibits this, and any other modifications.

In my opinion, sounds like an alright idea.


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## Grog12

KeepOnTruckin said:


> Sorry to quote from several pages, back. Let me just say that Officially, Genie Industries specifically prohibits this, and any other modifications.
> 
> In my opinion, sounds like an alright idea.




Speaking as someone who's almost been tipped out of a genie, and having worked with several people who have.....

Yeah no thanks. I'll come down. We have time.


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## jwl868

PeytonJr said:


> My school has all students in the tech class watch a video on relevant topics and then some, then they have to pass a test on the facts in the video to be able to work in class. If you don't pass the test, you don't get points for participation and you fail.
> 
> Do you have a source for the fall protection laws? I wanna read up. I'd imagine that they would be here, but i cant find it.



Washington State's OSHA Fall Restraint regs are here:

Fall Restraint and Fall Arrest-Chapter 296-155-Part C-1


Washington States OSHA page is here:

Safety

(Note: "Laws" are passed by legislatures; "regulations" are developed by government agencies under the authority of a law. Usually (but no always) there are few details in the laws themselves.)


US OSHA regulations can be found in Title 29 Code of Federal Regulations (29 CFR). For the regulations, I prefer to use the eCFR at the US GPO site. Fall protection is discussed in 29 CFR 1910 Subpart D for General Industry and 29 CFR Subpart M for Construction Industry. The regulations can be difficult to read at first because of the cross referencing. The OSHA webpage is a good starting point becasue they put many of the regs in "plain English".

Joe


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## shiben

Someone asked earlier about the height of our electrics: The space is built in a black box with a pipe grid at 16'. There are no catwalks, and about 3 feet above the grid where there are girders to hold up the patio above the space.


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## Footer

shiben said:


> Someone asked earlier about the height of our electrics: The space is built in a black box with a pipe grid at 16'. There are no catwalks, and about 3 feet above the grid where there are girders to hold up the patio above the space.



You are well within ladder territory there. I would recommend that a regular fiberglass A-Frame ladder be used. Werner makes double sided ladders that size that are great. 

Werner Ladder


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## fredthe

Footer said:


> You are well within ladder territory there. I would recommend that a regular fiberglass A-Frame ladder be used. Werner makes double sided ladders that size that are great.]


They also make casters (look under accessories on their webaite,) to help you in moving the ladder _when you aren't on it_.

Edit: See Footer's comment below, they don't fit the double-sided/larger ladders.

-Fred


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## Footer

fredthe said:


> They also make casters (look under accessories on their webaite,) to help you in moving the ladder _when you aren't on it_.
> 
> -Fred




> Note: Fits only ladders originally equipped with casters.



No manufacture is going to allow casters to be put on a ladder not designed for it. If you don't get casters when you bought it, you should not put casters on it after the fact.


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## fredthe

Footer said:


> No manufacture is going to allow casters to be put on a ladder not designed for it. If you don't get casters when you bought it, you should not put casters on it after the fact.


Actually, the large double-sidded ladder (T7400) is not one if the listed ladders it fits. It's only for the single-sided (PT7400) ladders. Kyle's comment is a good one.

-Fred


----------



## Grog12

mstaylor said:


> Try this. OSHA's A-Z Index Page You have to read multible locations to cover all the proper info. Some is in the industrial codes and others are in the general industry section.



Thank you for posting this link so I didn't have to search it out myself.


United States Dept of Labor said:


> Any time a worker is at a height of four feet or more, the worker is at risk and needs to be protected. Fall protection must be provided at four feet in general industry, five feet in maritime and six feet in construction. However, regardless of the fall distance, fall protection must be provided when working over dangerous equipment and machinery.



How many of you who roll around on extended genies or A-Frame Extension Ladders of Doom actually where any form of Fall Arrest?


----------



## fredthe

One additional ladder I came accross when doing research a couple of years ago is this one:
Little Giant SkyScraper Ladder | SkyScraper MXZ Ladder
Available up to 21', they advertise it specifically for working over seating, and on stairs, ramps, and uneven surfaces. This might be useful for FOH lighting access where proper lift/scaffold access isn't possible.


----------



## gafftaper

Someone asked a few pages back what you should use when there is no room for a Genie or a Scaffold. This is a common argument I hear which is often invalid. The 16' version of the Werner Ladder Footer linked to above has a foot print of 42" wide by 120" long... that's 10' long! When you put it on a rolling base it's even bigger. A standard scaffold is 5x7. 16' high or less I believe you only need outriggers if it's over 16' high... and most of us can get bye around 11' or 12'. But on that ladder you are centered in that 10' distance meaning it's often difficult to get right next to a wall or into a corner. With a scaffold you can get all the way into a corner... and unless you are working in a closet less than 5' wide the scaffold will fit. 

As for the question of how to get up to the grid in a black box with seats in the way. The safe answer is move the seats before you work. Beyond that I suggest you consult a fall safety expert about how to use an extension ladder safely in your situation.


----------



## Charc

fredthe said:


> One additional ladder I came accross when doing research a couple of years ago is this one:
> Little Giant SkyScraper Ladder | SkyScraper MXZ Ladder
> Available up to 21', they advertise it specifically for working over seating, and on stairs, ramps, and uneven surfaces. This might be useful for FOH lighting access where proper lift/scaffold access isn't possible.



I don't like those ladders. I have some qualms with the design.

Besides the function, and lack of idiot proofing, I fell from this guy once.


----------



## philhaney

RichMoore said:


> ....STFU...climb up the ladder and do your job?



If you don't want to hold the house so the instrument can be relamped safely, then have the actors adjust their blocking accordingly or issue refunds (or reschedule the performance for another time).

*Safety trumps STFU. Period.*

You will NOT see "He STFU and did his job" on my tombstone...


----------



## icewolf08

fredthe said:


> One additional ladder I came accross when doing research a couple of years ago is this one:
> Little Giant SkyScraper Ladder | SkyScraper MXZ Ladder
> Available up to 21', they advertise it specifically for working over seating, and on stairs, ramps, and uneven surfaces. This might be useful for FOH lighting access where proper lift/scaffold access isn't possible.



I'll take rolling on a-frame extension over one of those any day! We have one of those in our shop and let me tell you about how it doesn't feel safe at all. it seems like a great idea, but if you have never been on one before, you are lucky.


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## Grog12

icewolf08 said:


> I'll take rolling on a-frame extension over one of those any day! We have one of those in our shop and let me tell you about how it doesn't feel safe at all. it seems like a great idea, but if you have never been on one before, you are lucky.



And now we get into matter of preference. I'll take a little giant any day over a rolling a frame with an extension.


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## gafftapegreenia

I like the Little Giant, its just heavier than a beached whale.


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## mstaylor

gafftapegreenia said:


> I like the Little Giant, its just heavier than a beached whale.




I agree that it is heavy. My building just bought a 21 ft Little Giant. I was skeptical but was pleasantly surprised. We bought it to replace lamps in the stairwells. They didn't like my scaffolding I used in the past so this is the solution. Except for being unweldy to set up and get down it works great.


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## Footer

mstaylor said:


> I agree that it is heavy. My building just bought a 21 ft Little Giant. I was skeptical but was pleasantly surprised. We bought it to replace lamps in the stairwells. They didn't like my scaffolding I used in the past so this is the solution. Except for being unweldy to set up and get down it works great.




WAIT.... WAIT.... WAIT!!!!

Your telling me that a product sold on an infomercial is not as good as it say it is! 

Now... where did I put that pocket fisherman..... I think its next to my shamWOW!.... Off to the lake I go....


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## thatactorguy

mstaylor said:


> I agree that it is heavy. My building just bought a 21 ft Little Giant. I was skeptical but was pleasantly surprised. We bought it to replace lamps in the stairwells. They didn't like my scaffolding I used in the past so this is the solution. Except for being unweldy to set up and get down it works great.




I bought the 21' Werner version of the Little Giant at Lowe's a few months back. VERY handy for places a standard A-Frame won't go, but it's also heavy as all get out. I used it in three different positions the day I bought it for a show I was lighting; the extension ladder, fully extended, made me nervous with the sway in the middle. Love it otherwise and feel it's one of my better investments. Plus, it fits in the back seat of my '01 Crown Vic with one of the rear windows down...


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## mstaylor

I would never use it as an extension ladder but it is pretty handy as an offset step other than it is heavy.


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## fredthe

Just to clarify a bit, there are two types of Little Giant ladder. The first one, that you see advertised on TV, opens out into an extension ladder. In my experience, they are somewhat heavy but quite manageable, and can be extremely useful in getting to difficult to access locations. They do flex a little as an extension ladder, but they do work. A friend of mine did home inspections for a while, and with the Little Giant, he only needed to carry one ladder with him. Yes, it actually does pretty much work as advertised.

The ladder I was referring to earlier is the large double-sided A-frame only version, that will get you up to 21'. It doesn't convert to an extension ladder.

-Fred


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## gafftapegreenia

You know fredthe that reminds me of another fact. Most A-frame ladders are only meant to be climbed on one side. How many of you follow that? I'll be the first to admit I've disobeyed.


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## What Rigger?

gafftaper said:


> Alex makes a great point. I admit I used to roll around in a genie when I was young, dumb and we had an ancient genie without interlocks. I also used the scary A frame in college. However I would never do either today. I've been educated and it's not worth it.
> 
> Again get a rolling scaffold. Depending on the height you don't need outriggers. Depending on the size two people can work up there. I got a big 5x8 deck. It's really stable and we could have three people working on top if we needed too. It disassembles quite small and stores in my plywood rack in the shop. My deluxe one with a trap door in the top deck so you can safely climb the inside and stand on two landings on the way up cost about $1200.
> 
> My use of statistics above have been questioned via PM:
> 
> I was taught in a rigging class about a year ago. In falls above 6': Less than 10% walk away, a little over 50% die, and about 20% are paralyzed. Leaving around 20% with a serious but not life altering injury. I have no idea where that data comes from.
> 
> In another thread, Whatrigger? says that 80% of all falls REPORTED to OSHA from above 6' are fatal.
> 
> Clearly 6' is the magic height and a lot of people are going to die. But the exact number is a little unclear. If anyone has some free time it would be interesting to try to track down the actual statistics.



Hey gang!

My information comes from California OSHA direct, as a part of my training as a Fall Protection Competent Person. Long story short, that means I am certified to make the call on a job site as to what kind of fall protection and or anchors need to be used and/or not used. By law, anyone on any of my job sites has to follow my directives (althought strangely, i have no power to fine/cite/otherwise punish people who don't follow what i say...go figure. I never wanted to be a cop anyway.). I'm up shortly for re-cert, so whatever new info I find out I'll let you know when I get it.

Rock/roll!


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## iLightTheStage

Having worked in the northeast and Vegas, I have experienced two different worlds, which can basically be summed up as The Haves and The Have-Nots. Fortunately, out here when a situation calls for a boom-lift, we can often get a boom lift. I haven't even seen an extension A-frame out here.

I worked several years on an extension A-frame back east, and have always been sketched out by them, but worked anyway. And have moved while aloft on ladders, scaffolding, AND one-man genie-type lifts. Unfortunately, it took a friend's fall to wake me up to the fault of "doing things the way we've always done it". Please don't wait until someone you know, or yourself, to be injured, to start doing things the safe way. I promise you, the world will not end if you can't get all of the lights focused in the allotted time because you did it safely. 

And Bill, I am also surprised that you would actually recommend to modify safety equipment. What happens when someone uses the 'piano casters on outriggers' idea on a stage that isn't perfectly level? The lift could easily drift now, and, roll into a trap, the pit, or some other hole. It only takes a small moment of distraction for something like that to happen (similar to this that was in the news recently: ). 

Addressing other comments: 
For difficult FOH positions without catwalks, there are also focus chairs with fall-arrest safety lines/harnesses. This may be a less expensive and safer alternative. 

And for the 16' blackbox person, a 16' fiberglass a-frame ladder should do you just fine for your situation. 

Overall: safety should ALWAYS be the priority. Unfortunately for most of the safety-conscious people in this industry, they became that way because of a horrible accident to themselves or someone they knew. Don't wait for that to happen to you to start favoring the safe side of things.


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## BillESC

First of all, I did not recommend it. I stated it is what we do in a particular venue that I work in. Perhaps I failed to mention the trim height of the electrics is 13'6". I feel quite confident with what we're doing in our situation.

As for witnessing accidents, when I was working the load-in for "On the Town" with Phillis Newman and Bernadette Peters at the Imperial Theatre in NY, a member of the Electrics crew fell from the grid, a distance of about 70'. He landed only a few feet away from me. That was back in 1971 I believe and since then I've seen other fatal accidents. Safety is paramount in my book.


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## audiomaster

I watched from a front of house catwalk as a stage tech came down an A frame, jumped the last 3 feet to the ground (It was on a dolly) The jump gave it enough of a push that it rolled into a deep orchestra pit where it smashed a Steinway grand to bits! THATS how you persuade management to get rid of the A frame!!!


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## snareguy

As a regular tech i hate them. I've used them on infinite occassions but the rule I use is if it feels out of control by me... I dont use it ie: the center sways more than acceptable if it is moved. luckily i only deal with powered lifts atm. I'd suggest the safe rule... if you arent feeling safe doing it... dont. If a senior tech or someone else does thats great for them but you should never feel you need to put your self in danger to complete a job...


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## LightingPenguin

audiomaster said:


> I watched from a front of house catwalk as a stage tech came down an A frame, jumped the last 3 feet to the ground (It was on a dolly) The jump gave it enough of a push that it rolled into a deep orchestra pit where it smashed a Steinway grand to bits! THATS how you persuade management to get rid of the A frame!!!



That is a great loss, and we should all take a moment to mourn the loss of that Steinway.


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## icewolf08

So, I had a chat with a friend of mine who is a licensed electrician and an OSHA job-site inspector. I actually only got into the discussion because I noticed a newsletter from his employer that talked about scaffolds and fall protection. So, here are some of the things that I learned, and understand that they may only apply to this state and possibly some of the surrounding states as I know that he does work in them as well.

First off, he says that [to the best of his knowledge] the OSHA regulations cover EVERYONE, even the students who work for the theatre department at the University. If a student gets injured working in the theatre, the University will be the liable party, and the university is responsible for creating a safe workplace. So, you ay actually want to check your local regulations before you assume that OSHA doesn't apply to you.

Next thing we talked about is regular A-frame ladders and regular extension ladders. Regulations state that when working on these ladders your belt buckle (the centerline of your body) must remain between the rails of the ladder, and you may never have your feet on the two two rungs. So, if you ever have worked on the "not-a-step" or you regularly lean out to reach that next light you are in violation of OSHA regulations.

Ladders may be on casters supplied by the manufacturer as long as the casters are lockable and locked whenever someone is on the ladder.

There is also this interesting piece of information with regards to any and all ladders used in the workplace. This may have been mentioned before, but here it is again. Any ladder where the manufacturers labels and stickers have been removed, destroyed, or otherwise made illegible is NOT safe for use. Even that little 6' ladder that your painters use, if any of the labels have been painted over, even by accident, then the ladder is NOT safe for use. If one of those stickers started peeling off and got caught on something and was removed as you were moving the ladder around, it is no longer safe for use. Using a ladder missing any of the manufacturers labels is a violation of OSHA regulations.

Here is the real killer, scaffolding. Scaffolding must be setup by a qualified individual. This individual is responsible for making sure that the scaffold is safe for use. Any scaffolding that is left assembled from one day to the next has to be checked every day by a qualified individual to make sure that it is still safe for use. So, while anyone and their mothers can buy a scaffold online and figure out how to set it up, it does not make them qualified to do so. If you have been trained in the proper setup and safety checking methods for the scaffold you own or intend to buy then you are fine, but if no one else in your facility has this training then you are the only person who can setup and deem the scaffold safe for use each day. Also, even if you are trained and qualified to perform these tasks, you are not necessarily qualified to train someone else, and if you delegate responsibility to an unqualified person you may be liable for any accidents. 

Then there is the whole issue with fall protection, which it seems most theatres don't pay attention to at all, and i don't remember all the specifics of, so I am not even going to attempt the discussion.

So what is the point of all this? First of all, SAFETY FIRST and SAFETY LAST! I am sure that we currently do, have done, and will do things that organizations like OSHA deem unsafe. I am sure that we all currently do, have done, and will do these thing because no matter how much we believe and try to practice all the best safe practices, the idea that "the show must go on" is too deeply rooted in every entertainment technician. This does NOT mean you can just throw safety out the window. Do people not follow all the regulations? Yes, even in the industries that OSHA watches like hawks. does it mean that you can or should? No, you need to be safe. Does it mean that you probably will? Yup.

What else does this all mean? Well, to all of you who use and recommend scaffolding (even by giving a "+1 for that" or "what ^ he said"), please make sure that you are following the regulations for use before you tell other people that they are not following regulations for use of the gear that they own. I mean no attacks or offense to anyone, only that you look at the practices that you employ and the equipment that you are using before you go blowing the whistle on others.


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## JChenault

icewolf08 said:


> Here is the real killer, scaffolding. Scaffolding must be setup by a qualified individual. <snip> Also, even if you are trained and qualified to perform these tasks, you are not necessarily qualified to train someone else, and if you delegate responsibility to an unqualified person you may be liable for any accidents.




And herein lies some of my frustration with these kinds of discussions. How does one become a 'qualified scaffold setter upper'. Or a qualified electrician ( to rewire a PAR can from another thread ), or a qualified anything? 

If I go to a doctor I am confident that she has passed professional boards and accreditations. There are diplomas on the office walls. If I go to an Architect or structural engineer, I am confident that they have demonstrated a minimum level of knowledge of their craft. There are generally recognized standards for these professions. 

There is not ( as far as I know ) generally recognized standards for 'Scaffold setter upper' or 'Theatrical Par re-wirer electrician' or 'Fly rail operator' or 'Person who can fly people'. There are beginning to be standards for theatre electricians and riggers - but these are voluntary and have no real teeth as yet.

It is vitally important for us to stress qualifications and safety - but to simply say 'hire a qualified person' kind of begs the question - how do you judge the qualifications. If someone wants to become qualified what is the path to that qualification.

My point - in our industry, at this time, qualifications are still a bit fuzzy. We need to find a way to deal with this instead of pretending that it is a clear black and white situation. 

Just my two cents.


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## jwl868

A few notes regarding icewolf’s post:

1. The US OSH law and regulations are specifically applicable only to private industry employees and employers. If you are not in that category, then US OSH cannot help you. There may be State laws and regulations that include you, but don’t count on it. OSHA is a labor law, not an environmental law or a public health law. 

If you are a student, I would expect that either some legal standard of safety, school policy, or “mission statement” protects you (Maybe the state Department of Education laws and regulations provide for a safe environment for students). (If you are a student paid by a private school or paid by a public school in a State where public employees are covered under OSHA, then I think you are covered by OSHA.) If you are a volunteer (that is, no compensation), you are not an employee and you are on your own. But make no mistake, Safety First. The law is there to protect you from others, but it can’t directly protect you from yourself. 

Below are excerpts from 29 Code of Federal Regulations:

1910.5(a)
Applicability of standards.

Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section, the standards contained in this part shall apply with respect to employments performed in a workplace in a State, the District of Columbia, the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, the Virgin Islands, American Samoa, Guam, Trust Territory of the Pacific Islands, Wake Island, Outer Continental Shelf lands defined in the Outer Continental Shelf Lands Act, Johnston Island, and the Canal Zone.

Definitions
1910.2(c) 
"Employer" means a person engaged in a business affecting commerce who has employees, but does not include the United States or any State or political subdivision of a State;

1910.2(d) 
"Employee" means an employee of an employer who is employed in a business of his employer which affects commerce;

[Actually 1910.2(d) has got to be one of the worst definitions that I have ever seen in a regulation.]


2. For the scaffold construction, I believe the term is “competent person”. (This is a term used frequently in the OSHA regulations.) The term is defined as needed in each OSHA subpart, but the definition is usually general (see below). For example, years of experience or schooling or level of education may not necessarily be defined. (There is a separate definition for “qualified” and from what I can tell that applies to the design of the scaffolding components.) 

Under 1926 Subpart L - Scaffolds 
1926.450 - Scope, application and definitions applicable to this subpart.
1926.450(b)

“Competent person" means one who is capable of identifying existing and predictable hazards in the surroundings or working conditions which are unsanitary, hazardous, or dangerous to employees, and who has authorization to take prompt corrective measures to eliminate them.



Joe


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## icewolf08

Joe, thanks for clarifying, as I stated at the beginning of my post, the discussion I had with my friend may only be applicable to the state of Utah, and he may have been telling me about local regulations. Which proves why you need to look up your local codes and regulations and not just go by what you read online!


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## rochem

jwl868 said:


> 1910.2(d)
> "Employee" means an employee of an employer who is employed in a business of his employer which affects commerce;



Apparently someone in the government has a sense of humor...


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## SHARYNF

I am not trying to make light of the seriousness of safety BUT

can you imagine OSHA dealing with School Sports: Football? Baseball Track and Field. BOXING?????? Riding a Bicycle or a Motorcycle?

I did check with the manufacture of one of the Trestle ladders we use, and it is legal to stand on the center up portion, but not on the top 4 rungs, and it is proper and legal to sit on the top of the lower ladder top 

Sharyn


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## RichMoore

Just a shade off topic, but what about the circus type wire/rope ladders that must be climbed when going up into the trusses to operate a truss follow spot? What sort of regulation is on those units or is there any?


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## photoatdv

Generally fall protection is a must... I don't know if it's in the regs, but still is common sense.


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## Charc

JChenault said:


> And herein lies some of my frustration with these kinds of discussions. How does one become a 'qualified scaffold setter upper'. Or a qualified electrician ( to rewire a PAR can from another thread ), or a qualified anything?
> 
> If I go to a doctor I am confident that she has passed professional boards and accreditations. There are diplomas on the office walls. If I go to an Architect or structural engineer, I am confident that they have demonstrated a minimum level of knowledge of their craft. There are generally recognized standards for these professions.
> 
> There is not ( as far as I know ) generally recognized standards for 'Scaffold setter upper' or 'Theatrical Par re-wirer electrician' or 'Fly rail operator' or 'Person who can fly people'. There are beginning to be standards for theatre electricians and riggers - but these are voluntary and have no real teeth as yet.
> 
> It is vitally important for us to stress qualifications and safety - but to simply say 'hire a qualified person' kind of begs the question - how do you judge the qualifications. If someone wants to become qualified what is the path to that qualification.
> 
> My point - in our industry, at this time, qualifications are still a bit fuzzy. We need to find a way to deal with this instead of pretending that it is a clear black and white situation.
> 
> Just my two cents.



I agree that "qualified" needs to be defined in this industry.

While ETCP Electrician and Rigger (Arena / Theatre) is a good start, what qualifies someone for the lesser stuff? Maybe I don't need to know about electrical theory, I just need a new PAR64 socket. What qualifies you for that?

Is the answer that we create a tier of test-based qualifications? ETCP Electrician 1, 2, 3, 4, 5? In our litigious society, who could blame us? We need some sort of paper document to prove it, right? So a phone call to a previous employer is no good anymore? Or can we not trust the PM to know wether or not the ME was fixing this appropriately?

These are some serious questions for the industry to ask itself.

It could also be that these questions are an abstraction of the interwebs. When we do not know who we are talking to, we are like to take a more conservative approach, to cover our individual and collective asses. Once in the light shop, information moves more freely and one is likely to receive OTJ training.


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## mstaylor

OSHA regs are a frustrating thing. I was inspected years ago while constructing a Mountain Stage, which is esentially a big scaffolding. We had a safety policy in place, all climbers used rock belts for positioning but no fall protection. The inspector wasn't sure if we were compliant or not. My question was if she didn't know how are we supposed to know. The response was we were required to know. She kicked it up the line and it was determined we were scaffold erectors so were not required to use any fall protection because you can't safety to a nonpermanent structure. 
Fast forward 6 years and I again get inspected building the same type stage. This idiot says we have to be in full body harnesses with double lanyards so we are attached 100% of the time. I explained that that type of protection requires 17 to 18 feet of clear drop which is impossible on a scaffold. We still got fined. I talked to the safety company that we keep under contact and he said this guy was the only inspector he can't get along with in the four state area he covers. 
I currently am certified to to teach fork lift and man lift certification. I also am a competantly trained person. I also install permanent fall arrest systems.


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## fredthe

SHARYNF said:


> I did check with the manufacture of one of the Trestle ladders we use, and it is legal to stand on the center up portion, but not on the top 4 rungs, and it is proper and legal to sit on the top of the lower ladder top


Which, of course, eliminates the use that was suggested at the start of this thread.

-Fred


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## SHARYNF

fredthe said:


> Which, of course, eliminates the use that was suggested at the start of this thread.
> 
> -Fred



Exactly

Sharyn


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## masterelectrician2112

Thank you all for this forum. I read the entire thing and cannot believe the lack of safety practice in the industry. I will continue reading this forum. Thank you again for all of this useful information.


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## SHARYNF

I made mention of Sports in schools in regards to safety

this article makes for interesting reading

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/22/sports/ncaafootball/22concussions.html?hp

Sharyn


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## gafftaper

There is a basic premise that keeps coming up in this thread that bothers me. Some posts make it sound like OSHA is the restrictive enemy and people are trying to find ways to bend the OSHA rules. Other posts make it sound like people are thinking, if OSHA doesn't specifically say it's wrong I can do it. Finally there are posts that sound like people are saying if my supervisor says I can do it, he is the one responsible to deal with OSHA and I can go ahead do my work. People YOU need to be responsible for YOUR safety. I don't care what OSHA says and who it applies to. I don't care what your boss or co-workers say or do. 

_There is no prize for being the guy who get's killed on the job, so that the show can go on._ Buy your own harness and use it. Take a class, at your own expense if you must, and learn how to use fall protection properly. Refuse to climb dangerous ladders. Refuse to be pushed around on top of devices that are not designed to be used that way. Become your own expert and keep yourself alive. 

How sad would it be for my two little boys to grow up hearing, "Your Dad was a good man, I wish you could have known him. He always got the focus done on time."


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## AdamBair

Yeah, it's totally against OSHA to straddle a ladder top, but OSHA didn't bother to actually ask the professionals who use A-Frame ladders in their work. Straddling the ladder top is the only way to safely use both hands, and often the only way to safely get the job done is to use both hands.

As near as I can tell, OSHA regulations are designed so that a worker can lose consciousness at any point and they will be minimally injured. A nice idea, but like many "nice ideas" the OSHA regs meet with mixed success in the real world.

All that said, Gafftaper is right, you must watch out for your own safety. I know more then one person who has gone over in an improperly used Genie lift (needed reconstructive surgery) or bad ladder (walks with a cane at age 27).


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## gafftaper

AdamBair said:


> Yeah, it's totally against OSHA to straddle a ladder top, but OSHA didn't bother to actually ask the professionals who use A-Frame ladders in their work.Straddling the ladder top is the only way to safely use both hands, and often the only way to safely get the job done is to use both hands.



But that's just not true. There are many other devices that are designed to safely allow you to work with both hands. The only reason these things are still in use is our own Macho, "the show must go on and I'll risk my life to make it happen" attitudes. I'm convinced that even in the smallest community theaters with tiny budgets if you went in to the board of directors and told them "I'm not hanging another light until everyone in the room climbs up that ladder and tries it for them self". They would be horrified to find out what you do and you would have a new scaffold by the end of the week. They don't want you risking your life to hang lights for every show. They don't want that liability. They definitely don't want to be shut down by a multi-million dollar law suit after you die, especially when there are reasonably priced solutions. The vast majority of these people have no idea the danger that is involved in our work. Why don't they know? It's our fault by trying to live up to our own, "I'll do anything to make sure the show looks good", Ninja Code of conduct. 


AdamBair said:


> As near as I can tell, OSHA regulations are designed so that a worker can lose consciousness at any point and they will be minimally injured. A nice idea, but like many "nice ideas" the OSHA regs meet with mixed success in the real world.



Wait, so in your world worker safety is just a "nice idea"? Well gravity isn't just a nice idea. It's the Law!  Is it better for a technician to die than for a production to have blotchy lighting? Listen to what you are saying. The show is not worth risking your life.

I know there are all kinds of crazy situations out there. But there isn't a theater in the world that can't squeeze a few bucks a show into the safety fund and buy a safe alternative in a year or two. It's a matter of us saying enough is enough, educating management that the danger exists, and insisting that something be done about it soon.


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## shiben

I have to agree with gaff on the management thing. Especially at schools, get the principal or someone out on the ladder, your going to have a new system in a few days. The fact is, people who control the budget, especially for smaller productions that dont have unions telling them what they need to get, dont really know what your doing, and even if they see you doing it, they probably dont realize how unsafe it is. Riding an A-Frame while straddling it looks ok from the ground, if the Aframe is reasonably solid, but once your up in the air, its a whole different ballgame, and you quickly realize how perilous your situation actually is. Let them find this out, and most administrators will come down and ask what they need to get. I recently purchased a fall protection harness (its on the way), and am looking into local classes in the west michigan area on how to use it, along with other fall protection devices and practices. I decided that I would really rather have someone laugh a bit than fall and die or be walking with a cane at 21. Its just not worth it for anyone, and if it helps students, you have 3/4 of your life left to live. I know I want to not have chronic pain and potentially crippling injuries at this point. I doubt most people do. Thats my reasoning. As for OSHA, its guidelines to follow, and good practice to do so. But the final judgement on things not covered needs to be you.


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## AdamBair

gafftaper said:


> Wait, so in your world worker safety is just a &quot;nice idea&quot;? Well gravity isn't just a nice idea. It's the Law!



I think you misunderstand me Gafftaper, perhaps I used poor phrasing. The fact that OSHA has regulated _all the way up to spontaneous loss of consciousness_ is a "nice idea" that doesn't work in real life. Because OSHA has over-regulated then even their very good regulations are met with less respect. The discussion about straddling a ladder is a perfect example, it is much safer and more stable to step over the top then it is to stand the requisite two rungs down and stretch to try to change a lamp with one hand. Sure a scaffold would be great but that doesn't work when you are 10 min to house open. It is situations like that where OSHA has over-regulated. That over-regulation is why so many people treat OSHA as an obsticale rather then an ally.

Shiben offers another good example of the difference between OSHA and safety. The OSHA regs don't require fall protection on portable ladders, but Shiben obviously feels that it is needed in that situation.


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## cdub260

shiben said:


> I know I want to not have chronic pain and potentially crippling injuries at this point.



I'll second this sentiment. Having dealt with my own chronic pain issues for the last nine years, I can assure you that it's not fun. Yes, dealing with my knees has forced me to make some positive changes to my lifestyle, keeping my weight down and staying in shape being two examples. But dealing with the pain on a daily basis is a high price to pay for those changes, which I could have made without ever injuring myself in the first place.


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## photoatdv

minor rant coming... 

Yeah, some of the regs (don't care what agency/venue/supervisor) are over the top or not practical, HOWEVER if the industry would police ourselves, and we would do it on our own, then maybe OSHA people would just let us do it. The fact that TONS of techs/companies/venues are using overtly unsafe practices shows the need for regulation. If we'd make it where we regulated ourselves then we truely COULD use the best and safest method!

... minor rant over.


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## fredthe

AdamBair said:


> The discussion about straddling a ladder is a perfect example, it is much safer and more stable to step over the top then it is to stand the requisite two rungs down and stretch to try to change a lamp with one hand.


Actually, the much safer way would be to use a proper size ladder.

> Sure a scaffold would be great but that doesn't work when you are 10 min to house open.


Then perhaps more time should be allowed for lamp check?

> It is situations like that where OSHA has over-regulated. That over-regulation is why so many people treat OSHA as an obsticale rather then an ally.


I still fail to see how using improper equipment, or not allowing enough time is the fault of over-regulation.

-Fred


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## icewolf08

I think the conversation begs the question: Are practices like these actually unsafe, or do we say they are unsafe because the regulating agency says that they are unsafe? NOting also that the regulation is probably reactionary to an incident that ended either in death or litigation due to someone's stupidity.

Is it actually less safe to straddle a trestle ladder than to work reaching out from lower on the stick? It would seem to me that the potential for falling is about the same, from a physics standpoint it would seem that having your weight centered on the ladder (straddling the stick) would be safer than having your weight off-center by working on the side of the stick.

Again, I am not trying to say that OSHA is wrong. I am sure that they have done more research than I have.


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## gafftaper

icewolf08 said:


> Is it actually less safe to straddle a trestle ladder than to work reaching out from lower on the stick? It would seem to me that the potential for falling is about the same, from a physics standpoint it would seem that having your weight centered on the ladder (straddling the stick) would be safer than having your weight off-center by working on the side of the stick.



Perhaps, but it's sort of like arguing that it's safer to be hit in the head with a shovel than an axe. Both are dangerous and both are inappropriate use of the equipment. As was noted earlier in this thread, this type of ladder is made for painters to use running a plank between two ladders. Neither riding on top or hanging off the side are what the ladder was designed for. 

Icewolf, I'm pretty sure you would never misuse your counterweight system to fly people. How is misusing an A Frame trestle ladder any different? Either way you would have a person at a dangerous height on a device not designed to hold a person in that way. 


AdamBair said:


> Sure a scaffold would be great but that doesn't work when you are 10 min to house open. It is situations like that where OSHA has over-regulated. That over-regulation is why so many people treat OSHA as an obsticale rather then an ally.


a) Do your lamp check when you have enough time to safely swap it out, (as Fred said) buy a bigger ladder you can put up quickly, hold the show until you can safely change it, or forget it. No one in the audience want's to go home without seeing the show because there is a fatal injury investigation going on back stage. 

b) "over-regulation" We aren't talking about some obscure regulation like "protective clothing must be located near all breaker panels". We are talking about people using a ladder in a dangerous way and furthermore modifying the original design by mounting it on wheels. For this to be "over-regulation" there would have to be a safe way to inappropriately use one of these ladders on wheels. Sorry there isn't, only a less dangerous way.
_
By the way I want everyone to know that I don't mean anything personal in all of this. I'm enjoying a spirited debate and I hope the rest of you are too. Even if we never agree, any time we can challenge each other to reconsider the way we think about safety it is a good thing._


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## shiben

gafftaper said:


> _
> By the way I want everyone to know that I don't mean anything personal in all of this. I'm enjoying a spirited debate and I hope the rest of you are too. Even if we never agree, any time we can challenge each other to reconsider the way we think about safety it is a good thing._



I think its a good thing to discuss. If nothing else, we all should take from this to evaluate our safety practices, because I am sure that even the most safety conscious of us are lax in some area. Also, I feel that its important to try and have an honest discussion of this because at least where I have been, the culture is very engrained that you just dont worry about some things. For instance, my last boss saw no problem with walking the high steel without fall protection, because he never had used it. Sometimes, I felt like he spent more time figuring out how to subvert the rules than following them would have taken, but he truly felt that a harness was unneeded except in a few situations, none of which we ever worked in. In my current job, I dobt that anything except a death will convince the TD that a rolling an A-Frame with a person on it is a bad idea, but im trying to teach the crew people safer practices. Not that im perfect, but I do try. So far, this has been very informative as to learn about what im doing wrong. Its great!


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## SHARYNF

The ladder we are talking about was NOT just designed for painters with a plank, they were infact designed to be MORE stable that a large a frame ladder which places the the person outside of the central point. The idea was that you should not go above the top 4 rungs to make sure you had something in front of you to hold on to. It could be argued and proven physics wise that this design is MORE stable with the person on the center section at the same height than the same person at the same height on a more traditional A frame ladder.

Sharyn


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## jwl868

icewolf08 said:


> ....NOting also that the regulation is probably reactionary to an incident that ended either in death or litigation due to someone's stupidity.



Perhaps I am reading too much into the term “reactionary” [which could read as either “knee-jerk” or “measured response”] , but the OSH Act was signed into law in 1970. OSHA addressed decades of nonexistent, poor, and/or unorganized safety practices. (A short history of OSH Act can be found here: U.S. Department of Labor -- History -- The Job Safety Law of 1970: Its Passage Was Perilous)

I’m not sure about how the original regulations were assembled. (After all, at the time, there were some industry-specific rules, and by then, labor unions had done much to improve industrial safety.) But later additions to the regulations do follow a process where public comment is solicited and considered. 

Joe


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## icewolf08

jwl868 said:


> Perhaps I am reading too much into the term “reactionary” [which could read as either “knee-jerk” or “measured response”] , but the OSH Act was signed into law in 1970. OSHA addressed decades of nonexistent, poor, and/or unorganized safety practices. (A short history of OSH Act can be found here: U.S. Department of Labor -- History -- The Job Safety Law of 1970: Its Passage Was Perilous)
> 
> I’m not sure about how the original regulations were assembled. (After all, at the time, there were some industry-specific rules, and by then, labor unions had done much to improve industrial safety.) But later additions to the regulations do follow a process where public comment is solicited and considered.
> 
> Joe



I would read it as both. The point being that instead of training people on how to work in factories safely from the outset, it took injuries, deaths and accidents to even get recognized as a problem. Instead of teaching people who to do their jobs safely we just tell them what they are not allowed to do.

So look at the way things work today. Someone does something stupid and kills themself at work. Next thing you know there will be a new list of regulations. Someone flies an airplane into the World Trade Center, the next day "oh, maybe we should actually pay attention when we screen passengers before a flight! Maybe there should be standards."

Our government and society don't plan ahead for people's safety, we react after there is an issue. Take the time to learn how to do things safely and take the time to teach how to do things safely, and there will be fewer incidents that result in death, lawsuits and regulations!

I still want someone to tell me why using a device like a tallescope is considered safe in some countries, but not in ours! I have a feeling that the explanation to that question would reveal a lot about how regulations are set.

If we bother to teach people how to do something safely rather than how not to, people would be safer. It doesn't matter who you are, where you work, how old you are, human nature says that when you tell someone not to do something they are more likely to try it! Be proactive, not reactive. Teach how to do things safely rather than saying "don't do XYZ because it isn't safe."


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## gafftaper

I'm with you on the Tallescope Icewolf. We had one of those when I was in high school. It was very stable, and felt very safe to climb up and get in the basket. The fact that they were banned really amazes me as they seemed very safe.


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## jwl868

I search the OSHA website for Tallescope, and there are no hits for that word. Not even in any interpretation letters. There does not appear to be a ban on the product. 

Judging by the looks of the equipment, it's either a Manually Propelled Elevating Aerial Platform or its a mobile scaffold. 

Here are my best guesses as to why there are no Tallescopes in the US:

1. They don't conform to ANSI A92.3 for Manually Propelled Elevating Aerial Platforms which OSHA includes by reference.

2. They don't comply to the Scaffolding regulations.

3. There are patent or licensing issues. (But I would think those could be circumvented.)


Joe


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## icewolf08

jwl868 said:


> I search the OSHA website for Tallescope, and there are no hits for that word. Not even in any interpretation letters. There does not appear to be a ban on the product.
> 
> Judging by the looks of the equipment, it's either a Manually Propelled Elevating Aerial Platform or its a mobile scaffold.
> 
> Here are my best guesses as to why there are no Tallescopes in the US:
> 
> 1. They don't conform to ANSI A92.3 for Manually Propelled Elevating Aerial Platforms which OSHA includes by reference.
> 
> 2. They don't comply to the Scaffolding regulations.



Both of these reasons are not good reasons for the product to not be available in this country. If this is the case it blatantly illustrates my point. Blanket restrictions like this are the problem, if they restrict the use of a device because the device doesn't fall into one of the categories covered. Make a new category, be proactive. If it is safe to use elsewhere it is probably safe to use here!


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## Footer

icewolf08 said:


> Both of these reasons are not good reasons for the product to not be available in this country. If this is the case it blatantly illustrates my point. Blanket restrictions like this are the problem, if they restrict the use of a device because the device doesn't fall into one of the categories covered. Make a new category, be proactive. If it is safe to use elsewhere it is probably safe to use here!



I heard it had something to do with their setup. There is a pin on them that if that pin fails or is not properly installed the whole thing swings to the deck. I don't know if this is true or what, but its the word on the street, at least my street.


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## fredthe

Footer said:


> I heard it had something to do with their setup. There is a pin on them that if that pin fails or is not properly installed the whole thing swings to the deck. I don't know if this is true or what, but its the word on the street, at least my street.


The school that I help at had one, but it was pretty beat up, and was thrown out during the theater renovation (good thing, it was not in good shape.) It had a label listing a US distributor (in Chicago, I believe) but they are no longer in existence. This probably dated from the late 70's/early 80's.

As I recall there was a pin that locked the ladder upright, but I don't recall the details. It's still widely used in the UK (though it generates lots of debate there as to moving it while in use.) I've just never gotten a good answer as to why it's not sold in the US now. Kyle may be on the right track, though.

-Fred


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## JChenault

Footer said:


> I heard it had something to do with their setup. There is a pin on them that if that pin fails or is not properly installed the whole thing swings to the deck. I don't know if this is true or what, but its the word on the street, at least my street.



When I was interning at the Asolo theatre in the mid 70's they had a tallescope. It had a pivot at the center of the ladder that rests on a rolling frame. You stand up the ladder around the pivot and attach the bottom of the ladder to the frame. You then raise the basket like an extension ladder. I don't remember how the ladder is fastened, but there was a single point of failure in the latch. 

The tallescope was shared by the maintence department. One day a maintenence worker was using the unit to change a light bulb and the latch failed. The unit pivoted around the center point and the worker in the basked hit is head on the floor and died.

Unless the design has changed substantially, I consider the unit very dangerous and would strongly suggest that anyone who sees one does not use it.

While I generally agree with icewolf's sentiments about safety and osha, I don't think the tallascope is a good example for his argument. I can't say why it is considered safe in other countries, but the fact that there is a single point of failure (assuming I am correct and it has not been radically redesigned) makes it (IMHO) inherently unsafe. If you are in it and the latch (which is under tension) fails, you will likely die.


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## rochem

Footer said:


> I heard it had something to do with their setup. There is a pin on them that if that pin fails or is not properly installed the whole thing swings to the deck. I don't know if this is true or what, but its the word on the street, at least my street.



A local high school I help out at has a Tallescope which they use pretty frequently for focusing the electrics - I'd say it's about 50% Tallescope, 50% A-Frame (without wheels). I'm not honestly sure how the Tallescope works in terms of latching it, as I've only been up in it once or twice, but I know there's a very noticeable sound and movement when the upright structure falls into place. If it doesn't fall into place, it's not locked in yet. As I said, I can't speak to the redundancy of the safety systems, but from my limited experience using it, I like it. Not as much as a genie of course, but it definitely feels more stable than an A-frame.


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## fredthe

JChenault said:


> One day a maintenence worker was using the unit to change a light bulb and the latch failed. The unit pivoted around the center point and the worker in the basked hit is head on the floor and died.


This could very well be the reason they are no longer available in the US. They are still sold and used in the UK; I wonder if they redesigned it, but either can't, or don't want to try the US market again.

To those of you that still have one, a question: When the ladder is horizontal, is the basket on the top or the bottom of the ladder? If it's on the bottom, it could certainly put a lot of stress on the latch.

-Fred


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## jwl868

icewolf08 said:


> Both of these reasons are not good reasons for the product to not be available in this country. If this is the case it blatantly illustrates my point. Blanket restrictions like this are the problem, if they restrict the use of a device because the device doesn't fall into one of the categories covered. Make a new category, be proactive. If it is safe to use elsewhere it is probably safe to use here!



I can't contribute much more to this because there don't seem to be many facts about why there are so few tallescopes in the US. But one other reason may be competition: Genie and JLG (I suppose there are others) may have cornered the market for aerial work platform equipment. That's got to be a tough market to crack. One would have thought that the ladder and scaffold companies would have something on the market in their product lines. Perhaps they were tried, but were failed ventures....


Joe


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## teqniqal

A really elegant and affordable solution is the JLG manlifts "Stockpicker":
Products, then click on the "Stock Pickers".
Reaches to 21', no outriggers, can be moved while 'UP'.


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## FortMacTech

There has been lots of reference to fall protection during this post, but I haven't seen a reference to a self retracting lifeline. They work great for climbing ladders or scaffolding and definitely enhance safety. You don't want to be extended laterally or a fall will put on a show like the circus but they are the best for vertical up and down and small lateral movements.


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## ptero

We have two Tallescopes at our theatre. Regarding the latch mechanisms: There are two sets of latches for holding the ladder in the vertical position. Each set consists of two independent latches so there are 4 items securing it vertically.

When raising the ladder from the lowered position one set snaps into place, then you manually set the other two. This has always been extremely solid and if set properly, quite secure.

The weak spot, it seems to me, is the "bucket locking pins". I'm guessing but I suspect these are what is being referenced as pins earlier and what may have dropped the user to his death. How tragic - and preventable with proper use. 

At the top of the ladder/base of the bucket, there is a pivot point that allows the bucket to swing down. If that occured during use, it would dump the occupant out. The purpose of allowing the bucket to pivot is to make the unit shorter when the ladder is down, saving room backstage or in a truck pack. We virtually never need to do this.

The two Bucket Locking Pins keep that from happening while in use. They are very solid pins that are held in place by a very dodgy clip (don't know what to call it). We have added tiewraps to both pins/clips. The tiewrap prevents the clip from loosening and keeps the pins in place. 

My standard story shared during training is about coming out of the bucket after a couple hours of use... One of the pins had worked it's way out of the holes and was hanging loose by the 1/16" that only kept the pin from falling to the deck. The other pin kept the bucket up but that was still pretty scary when I saw that as climbing down. One pin had been holding the bucket, and me, up.

Over years of use I have seen these pins continually shift sideways and try to exit the holes they are set in - just with the regular use. I consider it unusable w/o the tiewrap in place. NO ONE goes up if a tie is missing. 

One accident I am aware of, at a nearby venue, involved the ground crew managing to drop a wheel off the edge of the stage and it, with a guy in the bucket, toppled into the house and broke his back as it/he crumpled over the seats. 

I'm not an apologist for the Tallescope, but it can be used safely if done with a brain. Pay attention to the various latches, maintain the tiewraps, use outriggers properly - cha cha cha.

If desired I suppose a couple pictures could be scored. That's all I got!


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## Scarrgo

Well, I guess I am very guilty. As a young lad of 12 or 13 i focused lites on an old "A" frame, loved it wouldnt have any other way...all the way through the college years, than onto Genies with no outriggers(and standing on the hand rails) on tour for another 10 years than to a genie with outriggers. Now I try to floor focus as much as possible. I seem to have gotten the "I dont do heights anymore" bug, but thats okay.I go up if I have to.

Not that what I did, even while sober was correct or right, but its what we did...The Show must go on...and it did.

Safer lifts is good for all, we just need to teach the young ones. Do it right.

Sean


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## Jackalope

We got lucky, our new building included a personal lift that can be driven from the cage and doesn't need outriggers... I'll check on the brand/model # when I get back to work tommorow

Jackalope


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## Footer

Jackalope said:


> We got lucky, our new building included a personal lift that can be driven from the cage and doesn't need outriggers... I'll check on the brand/model # when I get back to work tommorow
> 
> Jackalope



Its probably a Crown. There is also the runabout series from Genie.


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