# Hard Hats



## Marco Giampa (Jan 12, 2020)

Hi,

I need a new hard hat and im sick of using those horrible white builders ones.
I need it for anything from festival stages to small and large arenas where a hard hat is required because of booms and what not.
I have seen alot of people using hiking style hats from petzl and what not.
Im not sure what the regulations are in Australia so if anyone could help me with that area, that would be great.

If you could leave a reply of wat you know, or answer the poll below

thanks


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## josh88 (Jan 12, 2020)

I have both. My typical bump cap/theatre work cap is a petzel vertex, and then I still have a typical hard hat I carry because I do a lot of work doing installs and in active construction sites. My venue stocks the plain white hard hats to hand out to anybody who hasn't brought their own for when we have people working in the air.


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## RonHebbard (Jan 12, 2020)

I'm LONG retired and used the hat I purchased when I began my apprenticeship June 8th, 1967. My hat is your basic yellow construction style hard had with an integral rain gutter to collect rain and route if off the front over the sun visor whenever you intentionally tilt your head down. The gutter prevents water from running down your back and soaking your clothing from within. 
Toodleoo! 
Ron Hebbard (Long retired from IBEW 105 Hamilton, Ontario and IATSE 129 Hamilton, PLUS IATSE 357 Stratford, Guelph and Kitchener Waterloo, Ontario, Canada.)


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## egilson1 (Jan 12, 2020)

Petzl Vertex with optional face shield. The reality is most people should be wearing a hard hat more often than we realize. Get something comfortable.


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## RonaldBeal (Jan 12, 2020)

Petzl Vertex Vent.


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## Roger_Rosvold (Jan 12, 2020)

I wear a Petzl Alveo Vent. It has saved my skull at least 6 times from the old "stand up and hit your head" maneuver. I swear by it, even though it makes it harder to get into tight spaces.


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## TimMc (Jan 13, 2020)

If you use Petzl (and I like them but do not own one), make sure its NOT a climbing helmet. They are designed to different standards and the climbing helmet is not acceptable on a job site. They look nearly identical, so you have to read the sticker inside...

There is another discussion of head protection running here at Control Booth, 5 topics under yours. You might want to read it first. IIRC the thread topic is about de-rating of hard hats due to age, stickers/labels, UV exposure. Linky: https://www.controlbooth.com/threads/what-deregulates-a-hard-hat.46200/

I have 2 hats - the primary is a Honeywill Fibre-Metal P2ARW71A000. The other is an MSA Skullgard full brim 475407 for working with the steel rats (iron workers) and electricians.


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## What Rigger? (Jan 13, 2020)

TimMc said:


> If you use Petzl (and I like them but do not own one), make sure its NOT a climbing helmet. They are designed to different standards and the climbing helmet is not acceptable on a job site. They look nearly identical, so you have to read the sticker inside...
> 
> There is another discussion of head protection running here at Control Booth, 5 topics under yours. You might want to read it first. IIRC the thread topic is about de-rating of hard hats due to age, stickers/labels, UV exposure. Linky: https://www.controlbooth.com/threads/what-deregulates-a-hard-hat.46200/
> 
> I have 2 hats - the primary is a Honeywill Fibre-Metal P2ARW71A000. The other is an MSA Skullgard full brim 475407 for working with the steel rats (iron workers) and electricians.


Hey Tim, I have a Vertex Vent. So do the other 200 or so people in my department who are issued them. They are climbing helmets. We use them on the job site every day, for rope access work, aerial work platforms and anywhere else the company deems head protection necessary. We're compliant with all regulations in California. So, yeah, it can be done. I think what matters to an employer is whether the person wearing PPE for their head (or any other part of them) is trained to know the limitations of the gear. Is the hat in question for overhead impacts, or side impacts? Is it approved/rated for electric work? Etc... As always, I think training is probably the biggest component of PPE use.

But this is by no means a blanket statement that will cover all locations, employers, and/or conditions. Where you gig, it's entirely possible that climbing helmets aren't permitted. But where I'm at, they are. EDIT: _and as you said "so you have to read the sticker inside...", _
Or the product page which will also confirm it for people where it can be used.

Clear as mud....right?


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## TimMc (Jan 13, 2020)

The Vertex Vent is ANSI Z89.1-2009 Type I Class C compliant. If your job site does not require a Class G compliant hat, you're fine. The difference is that Class C hats are considered "conductive" compared to Class G (general) hats which have an insulation rating of 2200V, and Class G is what our IATSE Local has listed as appropriate across all our work sites. Also a quick look at the Petzl site indicates that the Vertex line is not part of sports & recreational product line, so it's not a climbing helmet.

We had hands show up with a vented helmet that *looked* very similar to the Vertex Vent (BTW the vent is why it's a Class C, not an E or G) but closer inspection revealed they were not ANSI Z89.1-2000-* certified. My error thinking those were genuine Petzl, as they were not.


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## Marco Giampa (Jan 14, 2020)

TimMc said:


> If you use Petzl (and I like them but do not own one), make sure its NOT a climbing helmet. They are designed to different standards and the climbing helmet is not acceptable on a job site. They look nearly identical, so you have to read the sticker inside...
> 
> There is another discussion of head protection running here at Control Booth, 5 topics under yours. You might want to read it first. IIRC the thread topic is about de-rating of hard hats due to age, stickers/labels, UV exposure. Linky: https://www.controlbooth.com/threads/what-deregulates-a-hard-hat.46200/
> 
> I have 2 hats - the primary is a Honeywill Fibre-Metal P2ARW71A000. The other is an MSA Skullgard full brim 475407 for working with the steel rats (iron workers) and electricians.



Where would i get a petzl that is not a climbing helmet? the only place i can find them online is, well, climbing websites?


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## Marco Giampa (Jan 14, 2020)

What Rigger? said:


> Hey Tim, I have a Vertex Vent. So do the other 200 or so people in my department who are issued them. They are climbing helmets. We use them on the job site every day, for rope access work, aerial work platforms and anywhere else the company deems head protection necessary. We're compliant with all regulations in California. So, yeah, it can be done. I think what matters to an employer is whether the person wearing PPE for their head (or any other part of them) is trained to know the limitations of the gear. Is the hat in question for overhead impacts, or side impacts? Is it approved/rated for electric work? Etc... As always, I think training is probably the biggest component of PPE use.
> 
> But this is by no means a blanket statement that will cover all locations, employers, and/or conditions. Where you gig, it's entirely possible that climbing helmets aren't permitted. But where I'm at, they are. EDIT: _and as you said "so you have to read the sticker inside...", _
> Or the product page which will also confirm it for people where it can be used.
> ...



Well the department I am in is a run of the mill sort of department, I mostly do networking and console setup aswell as moving light repairs, and also everything from bolting truss, hanging fixtures, cabling, plugging in racks, but NOT rigging. Other people in my department use the vertex vent and the black diamond half dome helmets, i would assume a vertex vent would be fine


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## Marco Giampa (Jan 14, 2020)

TimMc said:


> If you use Petzl (and I like them but do not own one), make sure its NOT a climbing helmet. They are designed to different standards and the climbing helmet is not acceptable on a job site. They look nearly identical, so you have to read the sticker inside...
> 
> There is another discussion of head protection running here at Control Booth, 5 topics under yours. You might want to read it first. IIRC the thread topic is about de-rating of hard hats due to age, stickers/labels, UV exposure. Linky: https://www.controlbooth.com/threads/what-deregulates-a-hard-hat.46200/
> 
> I have 2 hats - the primary is a Honeywill Fibre-Metal P2ARW71A000. The other is an MSA Skullgard full brim 475407 for working with the steel rats (iron workers) and electricians.



Another thing I have noticed is most of the peple in my department tuck the chinstrap into the top of the helmet so it just goes ontop like a normal white builders hard hat, is there i problem with this, if the builders hats dont have a chinstrap does it matter if you "remove" the ones on a petzl?


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## TimMc (Jan 14, 2020)

Marco Giampa said:


> Well the department I am in is a run of the mill sort of department, I mostly do networking and console setup aswell as moving light repairs, and also everything from bolting truss, hanging fixtures, cabling, plugging in racks, but NOT rigging. Other people in my department use the vertex vent and the black diamond half dome helmets, i would assume a vertex vent would be fine


Laws and regulations in AU are likely different, I cannot offer advice. My words are based on USA and the requirements of employers.


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## MNicolai (Jan 14, 2020)

Marco Giampa said:


> Where would i get a petzl that is not a climbing helmet? the only place i can find them online is, well, climbing websites?



The determining factor isn't where you purchase them; it's whether they meet the standards as required by the laws and regulations of your jurisdiction. In the United States, this is often ANSI. Among many other facets of day to day life, ANSI defines standards and requirements for personal protective equipment like hard hats and fall protection harnesses, which many regulators use as a benchmark for which equipment is suitable for different activities. To the average Joe, most everything in Petzl's catalog would be considered a climbing helmet. Among those products though are some which meet the specific requirements by ANSI for use as personal protective equipment in construction/industry activities.

Internationally, I would expect to see ISO in many areas, but I'm sure it varies from country to country.


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## Mike Donovan (Jan 16, 2020)

I have two Petzels. I forget model names at the moment, but I’ve had a small, low profile white one for years. It has vents in the side and it not too big and bulky. 
Unfortunately, although it meets the CSA standard for climbing, the main arena we work at deemed it insufficient for their space. 
Our shop went and bought new Petzels for the head techs. They satisfy the needs of the arena, but are much larger. They are brimless, which is great for ground rigging, but they also come with a double edged sword in confined spaces. On one hand, they protect your head when you bump it, but on the other hand, id the helmet wasn’t so big, you probably wouldn’t have bumped your head in the first place. 
For our junior crew and locals, we have a bunch of traditional, construction style hard hats.


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## What Rigger? (Jan 16, 2020)

Marco Giampa said:


> Another thing I have noticed is most of the peple in my department tuck the chinstrap into the top of the helmet so it just goes ontop like a normal white builders hard hat, is there i problem with this, if the builders hats dont have a chinstrap does it matter if you "remove" the ones on a petzl?


In the US, broadly speaking, if you don't use the chin strap at all times or remove it, that can be viewed as defeating a safety device and can get you in trouble. If you're injured while doing this on the job, that's providing the employer an easy way out of paying your medical bills, especially if you've been issued the helmet, trained in proper use, and signed documentation acknowledging the training.


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## Ravenbar (Jan 17, 2020)

I never have had to wear one on stage, but I wear a builders style one for my day job. I've found that most of the time, the likelihood of it actually protecting you from anything is minimal and more of a CYA thing for the company. Company policy basically says use your PPE when needed. At one point I had a manager give me a hard time for not wearing one, while in a man basket on a forklift outdoors, when I was literally taller than anything around(max height the forklift would go). If the sky falls on my head, I think we've got bigger things to worry about than lack of a hard hat, and if I fall, the hard hats not going to do anything. Same day, the tip of the fork went under part of the basket pocket so the basket was tippy, making me nervous. Manager wanted me to wrap a chain around me and the forklift boom, into the lower part of the mast, so I couldn't fall out(management insists fall protection isn't needed as the basket has a railing, even though company forklift training specifies its to be used with allwork platforms.) Problem being when the forks were raised, the chain would tighten, thereby cutting me in half...


What Rigger? said:


> In the US, broadly speaking, if you don't use the chin strap at all times or remove it, that can be viewed as defeating a safety device and can get you in trouble. If you're injured while doing this on the job, that's providing the employer an easy way out of paying your medical bills, especially if you've been issued the helmet, trained in proper use, and signed documentation acknowledging the training.



Last I checked, even if an employee is blatantly doing something stupid, it still falls back on the company for failure to adequately supervise employee. At least that's the case here in NY.


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## What Rigger? (Jan 18, 2020)

Ravenbar said:


> I never have had to wear one on stage, but I wear a builders style one for my day job. I've found that most of the time, the likelihood of it actually protecting you from anything is minimal and more of a CYA thing for the company. Company policy basically says use your PPE when needed. At one point I had a manager give me a hard time for not wearing one, while in a man basket on a forklift outdoors, when I was literally taller than anything around(max height the forklift would go). If the sky falls on my head, I think we've got bigger things to worry about than lack of a hard hat, and if I fall, the hard hats not going to do anything. Same day, the tip of the fork went under part of the basket pocket so the basket was tippy, making me nervous. Manager wanted me to wrap a chain around me and the forklift boom, into the lower part of the mast, so I couldn't fall out(management insists fall protection isn't needed as the basket has a railing, even though company forklift training specifies its to be used with allwork platforms.) Problem being when the forks were raised, the chain would tighten, thereby cutting me in half...
> 
> 
> 
> Last I checked, even if an employee is blatantly doing something stupid, it still falls back on the company for failure to adequately supervise employee. At least that's the case here in NY.


That first paragraph about the chain ranks as one of the dumbest things ever spoken by an "I'm the boss" type. 

If the employee is doing something stupid, it just paves the way for the company to automatically appeal the OSHA fine (which they will), and get said fine drastically reduced (which they will.)


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## Marco Giampa (Jan 19, 2020)

What Rigger? said:


> In the US, broadly speaking, if you don't use the chin strap at all times or remove it, that can be viewed as defeating a safety device and can get you in trouble. If you're injured while doing this on the job, that's providing the employer an easy way out of paying your medical bills, especially if you've been issued the helmet, trained in proper use, and signed documentation acknowledging the training.



Interesting, ill have to find the australian safety standards because all of the 100+ people I see at shows work at dont have a chinstrap on their petzles, and I asked a co-oworker if he removed it and he showed me that he just clipped it inside, I asked if this was ok, he shrugged. Maybe thats allowed at locally at my shows but im not sure


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## TimMc (Jan 19, 2020)

Marco Giampa said:


> Interesting, ill have to find the australian safety standards because all of the 100+ people I see at shows work at dont have a chinstrap on their petzles, and I asked a co-oworker if he removed it and he showed me that he just clipped it inside, I asked if this was ok, he shrugged. Maybe thats allowed at locally at my shows but im not sure


Hi Marco-

I think we've found part of "Fun" in having folks from around the production world here in the Booth - the wide variety of requirements, standards, and "practices" that probably make sense locally but those from afar go "uh.. say WHAT?"

Time for a shameless plug for an author who presents at a safety conference I work... Dr. Tony Kern. He's a pilot, administrator, trainer and author that addresses human factors, professionalism and ethics in the workplace (mostly aviation, but much of what he presents transfers to other occupations). He's got several books but the 2 I recommend are "Blue Threat: Why to Err is Inhuman" and "Going Pro: The Deliberate Practice of Professionalism".

We shouldn't be doing things only because they are required, nor stopping at some point because nothing further is *required* of our professionalism. "Good enough" should not be part of our professional vocabulary.


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## What Rigger? (Jan 19, 2020)

TimMc said:


> Hi Marco-
> 
> I think we've found part of "Fun" in having folks from around the production world here in the Booth - the wide variety of requirements, standards, and "practices" that probably make sense locally but those from afar go "uh.. say WHAT?"
> 
> ...


I'm going to steal that last line, Tim. And buy those books. Thanks!


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## TimMc (Jan 19, 2020)

What Rigger? said:


> I'm going to steal that last line, Tim. And buy those books. Thanks!


I think the first seminar I worked with Kern was after Blue Threat came out. Rigging is one of the most risk-analogous crafts to aviation to be found in our industry - either people die, or do not, and it made me pay a whole lot more attention to the level of professionalism with which each rigger approaches the craft.

Our little industry plays with lots of potentially dangerous stuff - electricity, chemicals, fire, liquefied gasses, but gravity is the most unforgiving.


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## egilson1 (Jan 20, 2020)

TimMc said:


> We shouldn't be doing things only because they are required, nor stopping at some point because nothing further is *required* of our professionalism. "Good enough" should not be part of our professional vocabulary.



Like Mike Holmes, Canadian super builder says, “it’s a MINIMUM code”.


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