# K-Array Redline Speakers



## DaveySimps (May 18, 2011)

I am consulting on a renovation of an older proscenium theatre.The AV consultant hired by the architecture firm is really trying to strong arm the client group into going with the K-Array Redline series speakers. I have never used them myself, and have read mixed reviews on them. No one in my area has any available to demo. Have anyone actually used the KR200's or KR400's? If you have, what are you thoughts? What configuration did you use? Any recommendation of the 400's over the 200's? 

The venue hosts 10 musicals a year running 24 wireless mics, with a pit band in a traditional orchestra pit that never really needs to be miced. They also host lots of corporate events, world music, and community events. The auditorium itself is 70'-0"W X 88'-" deep, with a ceiling of 51'-0", but a catwalk and a couple of acoustic clouds closer to the stage will be at about 36'-0"

A good quality sound system is a high priority for the client group as they have been frustrated with years of inadequate equipment for the space that has been cobbled together over time. The rest of the sound system is coming together nicely, but I want to be able to give constructive feeback to the client about this important piece of the system. Since the consultant is so animate about this one piece of the system and is not offering alternatives, so I really felt like I had look into them in much more detail.

~Dave


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## rwhealey (May 18, 2011)

I've never used the product, but if you look at the graphs, the KR200 is omnidirectional at 1Khz in the horizontal plane and if I'm reading the graphs right, only 3dB down behind the speaker at 4kHz.

I don't know how the space looks, but I would have significant second thoughts about using a line source speaker.

For the price of K-Array, you could put a nice, conventional Meyer rig in that theater.


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## maestrobranson (May 18, 2011)

2nd the meyer conventional point source boxes!


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## bishopthomas (May 18, 2011)

I've never heard any of the K Array stuff but my first thought when I saw pricing (and I'm a Sennheiser dealer so I'm talking about cost here) was, "Why?" But, hey, it could be amazing stuff. Send me your email address and I'll get the right people to you to arrange a demo. If they can't do a demo then they won't get the sale, they know that so I'm sure will do something to make it happen for you.


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## DaveySimps (May 18, 2011)

maestrobranson said:


> 2nd the meyer conventional point source boxes!


 
You guys hit the nail on the head of why I am looking for more first had user feedback. The K-Array is a substantial investment, and there are many alternatives I could offer them for the same price. I do, however, want to articulate to them WHY they should go against such a strong recommendation from a someone their architect is paying such a large amount of money to.

~Dave


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## rwhealey (May 18, 2011)

If the room isn't suitable for a line source, it isn't suitable for a line source - no matter how cool the line source speaker is.

Unless the room is fan shaped, with horizontal dispersion that wide, a good amount of the sound end up on the wall and stage where you certainly don't need it.


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## DuckJordan (May 18, 2011)

I have to also say, that with any theatrical response to a line array is. you WANT directionality in the sound. Its such a PITA when you get to a space like a high school and they say oh we have such an awesome sound system. I get there and they have a line array which is really only good for music play back and concert reinforcement. To me directionality is lost with line arrays.


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## museav (May 19, 2011)

DuckJordan said:


> I have to also say, that with any theatrical response to a line array is. you WANT directionality in the sound. Its such a PITA when you get to a space like a high school and they say oh we have such an awesome sound system. I get there and they have a line array which is really only good for music play back and concert reinforcement. To me directionality is lost with line arrays.


It all depends on what you are trying to do and what you want is the right directionality for the application. Wanting a sound to appear to originate from a specific location means everyone in the audience hears something different based on their location, which may be the opposite of what you want for other aspects of the sound where the goal is for everyone to hear the same thing as much as possible. You generally design the house sound system for the latter and then use practicals for localization cues in a specific production. What is also a bit ironic is that the biggest benefit of line arrays is often the ability to control the vertical pattern and have greater directionality than traditional speakers.

You noted that you are consulting and there is an AV Consultant, so how do the roles relate? Are you an Owner's Representative and they are part of the Design Team or are you both part of the Design Team or what? That could affect the manner in which, and to whom, you should respond. I'll also say that while I enjoy being able to explain the logic and thought behind my designs to the Owner and other project parties, and believe that I should be able and willing to do so, I don't like being put in a position of having my work second guessed. Speakers are also one area where I may often be least amenable to options as looking at other speakers is often not a matter of simply comparing the two products but rather of comparing the predicted performance from the two products in that application and I typically invest a great deal of time and effort into analyzing the expected results with different products when making speaker selections. So it might come across much better if you approached this as their helping you understand why those speakers are a good solution, and in the process you can ask questions that may verify if it actually seems a good solution or not.

I have never understood the perspective that many in the theatre world seem to have that using Meyer speakers somehow guarantees a good result. Yes, Meyer has some very good products but so do others and for every one of them it comes down to using the right products an an effective manner for that specific application, not just what name is on the product.

Okay, on to the actual topic! It sounds like a permanent install, however the Redline series is the portable product line in the K-Array family, there are other K-Array products intended for concert and install applications. The KR200 and KR400 are apparently satellite mains that are part of packaged portable powered systems that consist of the line elements and subs, with the subs containing the amplification and processing. And yes, the KR200 and KR400 apparently have a very wide horizontal pattern (virtually omni at 1kHz, 180 degrees at 4kHz and 120 degrees at 8kHz) and are effectively bipolar in their vertical pattern, with a narrow vertical pattern as low as 500Hz and some severe lobing at higher frequencies.

The KR200 is apparently essentially a single line array that can be 'folded' in the middle and is intended be mounted to the subs. It has a fixed nominal 120 degree by 7 degree pattern. You can 'double up' the KR200 with two of the line array elements mounted side-by-side and sharing a pole mount in order to get some additional output and horizontal pattern control. In comparison, the KR400 is capable of 5dB greater output than the KR200 (127dB continuous/133dB peak for the KR200 versus 132dB continuous/138dB peak for the KR400) but perhaps more significant, you can adjust the angle between the two line array elements to vary the coverage and the line arrays can be flown. It seems that you can even fly multiple of the KR400 to create a taller array. So if you had a 'standard' configuration of one line element pair in a vertical line attached to the sub the difference between the KR200 and KR400 would seem to be primarily the in potential output, however the KR400 seems to also offer greater flexibility in how it could be applied.

Basically, those do seem a bit of an odd choice in general but there may be a reason for them being suggested that is not obvious. I'd simply tell the AV Consultant that you aren't that familiar with those products and ask if they could tell you something about them and explain why they are recommending them for this application. Since they are the ones recommending the speakers, they should be willing to do that and should also be willing to try to help set up a demo. If they are reluctant to do that then there may be a problem that extends beyond this particular product choice.


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## DaveySimps (May 19, 2011)

Thanks for your reply Brad. I am serving as and owner representative. I am trying not to second guess the other consultants on the project, but as you indicated the redline series seems a bit of on add choice for the application. All of the other components of the system we spoke in great detail as to their application and sutibility to the end user and, as I mention before, we all agreed upon. When they brought this up they did not give much detail, and are responding with short undetailed responses as to why they are the proper choice for the project. Responses like, "we have had success with them on other projects" and "We were pleased with the demonstrations we received from the manufacturer". That is what has me most concerned. The rest of the process has been great, so now why the 180? And if they are so pleased with the product, then why can't they articulate why they are such a great fit and why they are so pleased with them in other projects so I can help to educate the client. I am just trying to be diligent and get some more info. I just want this group to be very happy with their renovation that has been a long time coming and that they are spending quite a bit of money, time, and resources on.

~Dave


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## museav (May 19, 2011)

DaveySimps said:


> When they brought this up they did not give much detail, and are responding with short undetailed responses as to why they are the proper choice for the project. Responses like, "we have had success with them on other projects" and "We were pleased with the demonstrations we received from the manufacturer".


So does that mean they are the only speakers they've ever encountered where they were were pleased with the demos and had success with them? And how relevant were those demos and other projects to this application? As I said, I understand approaching the speakers a differently than many of the other system components, however it seems reasonable to expect a better explanation than you've received and it does sound a bit like they are either trying to avoid the issue or simply can't present a response that they think serves their purpose.

As to why that may be the case, you mentioned that the AV Consultant was hired by the Architect and that could be relevant. The speakers are often the most visible element of the sound system and based on the particular products involved as well as having been through similar experiences, I can see the AV Consultant having the Architect or other Design Team members dictated to them that the speakers can't be larger than a certain size or have to be as visually unobtrusive as possible or something that applied some non-audio related constraints on the speaker selection. The AV Consultant may have no good response for you on why they chose the speakers because the speaker choice may have been at least partially dictated by factors others defined. Just about every project experiences this to some degree as there are always competing goals and considerations, but if the Consultant is working for the Architect then it is very difficult for them to simply come out and say "These aren't our first or even second choice, but they're the best we can come up with under the constraints dictated to us or that others would accept.", so they may avoid saying much of anything at all. I certainly don't know that to be the case, but I have been there and it can be one of the tradeoffs in having Consultants work for the Architect rather than directly for the Owner.

Just put of curiosity, is the Consultant by chance a Contractor or Dealer? That could potentially introduce other considerations as well. It would not be the first time someone picked a product that they knew gave them an advantage over other bidders or to hesitate to discuss alternatives products that offered any such advantage. This doesn't mean that they product selected is a bad choice, just that they may be less open to considering other alternatives.


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## DaveySimps (May 19, 2011)

I COMPLETELY agree with your point about who the consultant works for. I have encountered this on other projects as well, it is all part of the dance. I have a feeling it does have to do a bit with that. 

The Consultant is not a contractor or dealer. In fact they are a fairly well know group that just does AV consulting all over the USA and Canada as their only line of work. I did have a phone call today from one of the consultants. He apologized for the lack of information and said "more with forthcoming".

~Dave


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## rwhealey (May 20, 2011)

museav said:


> I have never understood the perspective that many in the theatre world seem to have that using Meyer speakers somehow guarantees a good result. Yes, Meyer has some very good products but so do others and for every one of them it comes down to using the right products an an effective manner for that specific application, not just what name is on the product.


 
Sorry that slipped out  I should have just said point source speaker.

I'm not sure how Meyer became entrenched in theater, but it seems that if you don't have them, it makes life a bit harder with touring guys - they need a bit more convincing that your rig sounds good before they even listen to it.


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## museav (May 20, 2011)

rwhealey said:


> Sorry that slipped out  I should have just said point source speaker.
> 
> I'm not sure how Meyer became entrenched in theater, but it seems that if you don't have them, it makes life a bit harder with touring guys - they need a bit more convincing that your rig sounds good before they even listen to it.


You're right that there is a definite 'acceptance factor' perception that is very prevalent. Whether it is necessarily justified or not is another matter when the reality is that any product can be inappropriately or poorly applied. However, it's also not unusual to see riders that call for mixers that if you were to actually provide some of them you might find the BE or A1 has never actually used them. Although I think the theatre world is less guilty of this than the concert world, there's probably some "asking for XYZ shows we know our stuff and must be good", some "no one will fault us or think we're amateurs if we ask for XYZ" and a lot of "asking for XYZ will hopefully at least mean that we don't get ABC" that occurs with tech riders.


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## bishopthomas (May 20, 2011)

Brad is exactly right. Listing "Meyer speakers" weeds out the companies/venues bringing in Mackie/Behringer/etc. When I was on tour I made out the rider to be more for specs than brands. I found that saying "a console capable of 8 pre fade auxes" as well as VCA's and other features only found on higher quality consoles to be better than just saying "I HAVE to have a PM5D (or whatever the console of the year is).


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## sazarbc (Oct 12, 2012)

DaveySimps said:


> Thanks for your reply Brad. I am serving as and owner representative. I am trying not to second guess the other consultants on the project, but as you indicated the redline series seems a bit of on add choice for the application. All of the other components of the system we spoke in great detail as to their application and sutibility to the end user and, as I mention before, we all agreed upon. When they brought this up they did not give much detail, and are responding with short undetailed responses as to why they are the proper choice for the project. Responses like, "we have had success with them on other projects" and "We were pleased with the demonstrations we received from the manufacturer". That is what has me most concerned. The rest of the process has been great, so now why the 180? And if they are so pleased with the product, then why can't they articulate why they are such a great fit and why they are so pleased with them in other projects so I can help to educate the client. I am just trying to be diligent and get some more info. I just want this group to be very happy with their renovation that has been a long time coming and that they are spending quite a bit of money, time, and resources on.
> 
> ~Dave



K Array 400s are the best portable sound system out there. Designed to set up and breakdown quickly. For permanent installations, much more can be accomplished with the $. You don't use the K array systems for permanent installs! Anyone that wants to do that is simply lacking experience.


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## museav (Oct 12, 2012)

sazarbc said:


> K Array 400s are the best portable sound system out there.


Regardless of budget, application, venue, etc.?


sazarbc said:


> You don't use the K array systems for permanent installs! Anyone that wants to do that is simply lacking experience.


Which are why there are K-Array products designed specifically for installs and that have been used very successfully in installed applications. Maybe better to say that anyone that overlooks the relevant aspects of the application involved when selecting speakers may be lacking experience and knowledge.


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## sazarbc (Oct 12, 2012)

museav said:


> Regardless of budget, application, venue, etc.?
> 
> 
> Which are why there are K-Array products designed specifically for installs and that have been used very successfully in installed applications. Maybe better to say that anyone that overlooks the relevant aspects of the application involved when selecting speakers may be lacking experience and knowledge.



Yes, many types of K Array speaker systems and applications are available. Not that the 400s wont work great as a permanent install, but if I were spending 15 grand for a permanent install, you can bet I'd spread that out a little more. Ill keep my 400s for the road.


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## DuckJordan (Oct 12, 2012)

I'm sorry, you are lacking experience. I've seen the K Array out perform Martin speakers in an installed format. The fact that you would put a blanket statement proves you really shouldn't be saying them.


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## sazarbc (Oct 12, 2012)

DuckJordan said:


> I'm sorry, you are lacking experience. I've seen the K Array out perform Martin speakers in an installed format. The fact that you would put a blanket statement proves you really shouldn't be saying them.



Okay guy
If you haven't figured it out yet, I love my 400's and would put them up to ANY sound system out there. I have done hundreds of installs and I can assure you that I can put together an installed system in that price range that will be better than a set of 400s. You should become more familiar with installed sound before you comment.


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## DuckJordan (Oct 12, 2012)

sazarbc said:


> Okay guy
> If you haven't figured it out yet, I love my 400's and would put them up to ANY sound system out there. I have done hundreds of installs and I can assure you that I can put together an installed system in that price range that will be better than a set of 400s. You should become more familiar with installed sound before you comment.



I'm not going to take this into a flame war, but I have worked with several different places for installed and touring audio. I've worked with speakers from Klipshe to JBL to Martin Mackie, and behringer and several others. Trust me when I say I am very familiar with installed equipment and Touring.


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## museav (Oct 12, 2012)

Maybe as simple as "You don't use the K array systems for permanent installs!" really having been intended more as "You don't use the KR-400 systems for permanent installs!" The KR series is intended specifically for portable applications, however there are other K-Array series and models that are intended for permanent installs.


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## bishopthomas (Oct 15, 2012)

So, Dave. Since this thread was dug up with flames licking our hands... What ended up happening? Did you get a demo of the K-Array? I'm anxious to hear any opinions you may have. Like I said, I'm a dealer but I've never actually heard or even seen any K-Array products in person.


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## DaveySimps (Oct 15, 2012)

I was able to arrange a demo of both the KR200's and 400's for my client. As I originally anticipated, they were not even close to being the right choice for their space, so we went another direction entirely (JBL VRX system). They are very happy with their final system and budget.

The K-Array systems are pretty incredible products. They definitely make you rethink what you expect from a portable system. I could see a good use for them in musical theatre or orchestra sound reinforcement inside a certain type of proscenium theatre space. I could see where they would be a great fit for the jazz and corporate world too. They are very easy to set up and use. Not my favorite sounding box, but I would not be afraid to recommend them if them in certain scenarios, especially the KR400's.

~Dave


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