# 100 at 1% on the ETC ION



## Taylor Cambas (Aug 15, 2014)

How do I choose a non-dim profile on the ETC Ion. I'm using a dimmer to power my scroller power supply.


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## sk8rsdad (Aug 15, 2014)

In patch, change the Type from Dimmer to one of the generic non-dims like "Full at 100%". 

Note that this does not magically turn your dimmer into a relay. Some power supplies still won't like the waveform coming out of a dimmer at full.


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## James Diemer (Aug 15, 2014)

Just to expand on that (for anyone reading this in future searches):

Even when it's "at full," the dimmer isn't giving out the same type of power as your wall AC outlets (square waves and general electrical math aside).

Some devices (moving lights, LEDs, computers, motors and fans) want the type of power your wall outlet gives.

If the device wants wall power and you give it dimmer power (even "at 100%), you can have a problem (from peculiar behavior to straight up failure).

To prevent this issue, you can replace the dimmer module with a relay module which bypasses the dimming capability - effectively turning that circuit into wall outlet power.


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## Amiers (Aug 15, 2014)

This is your last option for true power. You should really have the circuit that the PSU is plugged into in a non dim or whatever voltage your area provides straight power.


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## Kelite (Aug 22, 2014)

Yep yep, all of the above~

If possible please do attempt a connection with wall power. It's worth the trouble now in saving a power supply from the evils of the dark side...


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## Tex (Aug 23, 2014)

I'm confused. The pros here all say to never use a dimmer to power anything with a power supply; only use a relay. But ETC says this:
http://www.etcconnect.com/Support/Articles/Non-Dim-vs-Switched-Mode---Regulated-vs--Unregulated.aspx
In fact, my system was installed by a well-known and respected company with direct supervision and assistance from an ETC rep. All of my movers (HES SSpots and SColors) and LEDs (Selador classics and Desires) are powered by Sensor D20AF modules in switched mode. Again, this was done by professionals under the watch of an ETC rep. I'm not saying it's not, but if it's really that big of an issue, why would this equipment be installed this way by the company who designed and manufactured it?


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## Amiers (Aug 23, 2014)

Tex said:


> I'm confused. The pros here all say to never use a dimmer to power anything with a power supply; only use a relay. But ETC says this:
> http://www.etcconnect.com/Support/Articles/Non-Dim-vs-Switched-Mode---Regulated-vs--Unregulated.aspx
> In fact, my system was installed by a well-known and respected company with direct supervision and assistance from an ETC rep. All of my movers (HES SSpots and SColors) and LEDs (Selador classics and Desires) are powered by Sensor D20AF modules in switched mode. Again, this was done by professionals under the watch of an ETC rep. I'm not saying it's not, but if it's really that big of an issue, why would this equipment be installed this way by the company who designed and manufactured it?




That link is nice but they are very careful with the wording at the end. Stating "which will give you very close to a sinewave and will work for almost any load type."

Which in my personal book close and almost just aren't there for me.


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## sk8rsdad (Aug 23, 2014)

You might get away with it. On the other hand, it can cost a fair bit of money to replace a magnetic ballast that didn't like the harmonics, or a switched power supply that got pooched because it's zero-crossing detection got confused. There are all sorts of loads that can tolerate it. Then there are the ones that won't. The pros might know which one is which, but they're wise enough to recommend against doing it as a general practice, particularly in an internet forum.


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## Tex (Aug 23, 2014)

So, ETC gambled that they might get away with it on a large, costly install? That doesn't make sense. I'm not arguing, I'm just confused why the manufacturer who warrants the equipment is OK with installing it in a way that the pros here would call risky.


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## hobbsies (Aug 27, 2014)

It's curve 905. I've never seen the type changed before.


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## TheaterEd (Aug 27, 2014)

Tex said:


> So, ETC gambled that they might get away with it on a large, costly install? That doesn't make sense. I'm not arguing, I'm just confused why the manufacturer who warrants the equipment is OK with installing it in a way that the pros here would call risky.


The OP was asking for a way to change the patch in the ION. The post from ETC is saying that you should change the settings at the dimmer rack so that the dimmer only outputs a certain kind of power. 

In OP's case, changing the patch in the ION will not change the type of power being sent to his power supply. Depending on which units you have in your dimmer rack, changing the setting there will output the correct type of power.

Just my translation, for what its worth.


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## gafftaper (Aug 27, 2014)

Tex said:


> So, ETC gambled that they might get away with it on a large, costly install? That doesn't make sense. I'm not arguing, I'm just confused why the manufacturer who warrants the equipment is OK with installing it in a way that the pros here would call risky.



My understanding is that Sensor dimmers are much different from the traditional dimmers we all grew up with and most of us have in our theaters. While many of us can put a dimmer into "non-dim mode", all that means is it dims from 0-100% instantly. But a Sensor dimmer in Switched mode acts differently and is very similar to a truly undimmed electrical source. The idea that ETC would gamble on device compatibility on a system install is absurd. First of all, they were using different technology than most of the pros here have in their theaters. Technology which ETC considers safe for that application. My guess is that if they were that involved in consulting on the system, they knew the rest of the lighting package and knew from previous experience that the equipment involved would work just fine on a Switched Sensor dimmer. 

That said, it sounds like we could use a little education on what makes Sensor Dimmers unique from the master @STEVETERRY.


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## Tex (Aug 28, 2014)

gafftaper said:


> The idea that ETC would gamble on device compatibility on a system install is absurd.


...which is why I said it didn't make sense.


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## StradivariusBone (Aug 28, 2014)

I've looked for this elsewhere, but I'm still wondering about the actual mechanics of how the dimmers affect the power will disrupt/destroy certain equipment. I know it has to do with how the SCR dimmer changes the sine wave of the AC power, but I've never been able to find out why that's a bad thing for wall warts et al.


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## SteveB (Aug 29, 2014)

StradivariusBone said:


> I've looked for this elsewhere, but I'm still wondering about the actual mechanics of how the dimmers affect the power will disrupt/destroy certain equipment. I know it has to do with how the SCR dimmer changes the sine wave of the AC power, but I've never been able to find out why that's a bad thing for wall warts et al.



Christie lights has a decent explanation here:
http://www.christielitessales.com/service_library/ETC/Switched_or_Non.pdf

One thing that I'm not sure about in their pdf was a comment:

"ETC Relay modules are rated for between 200,000 and 5 million 
operations dependant upon load,_* can only switch 10A tungsten*_, and have a fault current rating of 10kAIC. "

10 amps max for tungston ?. Is that true ?, as I've never heard this.


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## let there be light (Nov 15, 2014)

I was just reading this post and now I think I have to go change 2 of my VL3000 spot movers to wall power, but we are mighty short on outlets here. The others are already run to wall power. I have run constant power by profiling the dimmers in the Ion before, but these dimmers are Strand, not ETC, so probably it's not worth the risk. However, the shop that sent them provided the adaptors to the 3 pin stage circuits, and not the regular AC adaptors. So I am still wondering if it would work OK.


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## SteveB (Nov 15, 2014)

let there be light said:


> I was just reading this post and now I think I have to go change 2 of my VL3000 spot movers to wall power, but we are mighty short on outlets here. The others are already run to wall power. I have run constant power by profiling the dimmers in the Ion before, but these dimmers are Strand, not ETC, so probably it's not worth the risk. However, the shop that sent them provided the adaptors to the 3 pin stage circuits, and not the regular AC adaptors. So I am still wondering if it would work OK.



The Vari-Lite spec sheet for the VL3000 Spot states it will run on " 200– 264 VAC, 50/60 HZ" . 

So how are you powering these ?


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## rochem (Nov 15, 2014)

SteveB said:


> The Vari-Lite spec sheet for the VL3000 Spot states it will run on " 200– 264 VAC, 50/60 HZ" .
> 
> So how are you powering these ?



I was just gonna say that. While some "208V-only" fixtures will still have some functionality on 120V, if you really are sending these 120V, then you have much more serious issues than just putting them on a switched dimmer.


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## DavidNorth (Nov 15, 2014)

SteveB said:


> Christie lights has a decent explanation here:
> http://www.christielitessales.com/service_library/ETC/Switched_or_Non.pdf
> 
> One thing that I'm not sure about in their pdf was a comment:
> ...


 
Wow. That's a very old article that I wrote probably back in the late 90s.

I can tell you that ETC relay modules do indeed have a SCCR rating of 100kAI as they were redesigned some time ago. The rest of the ratings for operations and tungsten loading are correct. Do note that cold tungsten loads draw a large amount of inrush current and cause some degree of issue with contacts closing or opening by drawing a larger and more destructive arc between said contacts. Cold tungsten filaments are also the reason most dimmer breakers have special ratings as well.

It is important to remember that only rarely will someone be using relays to switch tungsten as most people will instead use a dimmer for this purpose.


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## icewolf08 (Nov 16, 2014)

At some point in the past, Mr. Terry posted some scope images of the waveforms created by ETC's dimmers. You could clearly see the clipping caused by the SSR even at full.

It is my understanding that standard D20 dimmers, even when set to "switched mode" via the CEM interface still have the SSR active. As such, you would see the same clipping in switched mode as a dimmer at full.

I have certainly seen and experienced issues with having devices powered by dimmers even when the dimmers were set to switched or even always-on modes. However, switching to relay modules or Constant modules solved the issues.

It is also my understanding that ETC has engineer their products like LED fixtures and Revolutions to function just fine on dimmers set to non-dim. They did this so that people who were adding these units to an existing system don't have to worry about finding true non-dim power. Not all manufacturers design their electronics with this in mind. As I know that I have gear that doesn't like being on switched dimmers, I keep an inventory of relay and constant modules so that I can supply true non-dim power via the lighting system as opposed to hunting for building circuits.


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