# Making Dream Jobs Come True (TL;DR in OP)



## NateJanota

Afternoon, CB!

So it's time to let a kitten out of the bag (I would say cat but my project hasn't grown up that much yet, ha ha, okay I'll stop now).

Some of you may remember that several months ago I posted a request for help in doing some research on Technical Entertainment; you can find that here. Several months have passed, tons of research has been done, and I'm ready to (slightly) reveal what I've been working on.

I've formed a company named RTECS (Regional Technical Entertainment Career Sourcing), with the goal of connecting technicians with their dream jobs (and clients with their dream techs). I've been in too many workplaces where the techs I knew were invariably frustrated with their work not lining up with their expectations; I hate seeing a fellow tech struggle, so I've begun work on what is the equivalent of eHarmony and Monster all blended into one for the purpose of matching Technicians to ideal as possible work.

As part of this company's development, I've begun doing even more in-depth research into what makes techs (and clients hiring them) tick. Below I've posted two links to surveys that I would *greatly appreciate* anyone filling out. They can be filled out anonymously, and there's no strings attached.

The surveys are being used to help me better understand what makes up a dream job for most techs. While that may sound simple, it's innately complex and difficult to quantify.

If for any reason you don't feel comfortable filling out these surveys without knowing additional details you can either 1) contact me here on CB and ask any questions you may have, or 2) contact me by email that I'll have listed below.

Thanks everyone! Y'all have been awesome in helping me work on this thus far, and I look forward to more feedback, input, and criticism!

RTECS Technician Survey
RTECS Hiring Client Survey

My Email: [email protected]


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## Amiers

Completed.


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## Footer

Going to be a bit critical here....

Just curious, what is your background? This survey seems to be written by a person with very little production experience.... A lot of the things that I expected to be there were not. The entire thing felt rather childish. Many of the jobs I regularly hire were not there. Also, you never asked about location and relocation. That is probably the biggest thing. The reason that most people are staying at the gigs they are in is due to being tied to a location. I own a house, you won't see me leaving my gig anytime soon for this reason. I know EVERY gig that comes around in the region I'm in because there are so few gigs. Be sure to include this. Usually the ideal gig is the one that is where you live, not necessarily the one that is perfect. 

Also, you never asked about what kind of shows you are looking at. An audio engineer who only mixes legit theatre would be lost working in my theatre that produces mostly concerts. Likewise an LD who does mostly corporate work would be lost lighting a concert. 

I'm truly not certain if there is a need for this. Artsearch and offstagejobs.com do a good job in fulfilling this need. If I need a head hunter I go to my facebook contacts. My current audio engineer was hired this way... through a contact that I met on CB actually. 

If you are looking for real research you should be asking what makes a successful employee for your organization, not what you are looking for in an employee. You never asked about team dynamics or basic management styles. You also never asked about how that employee deals with clients or how good they are at thinking on their feet. I want someone with good customer service skills and someone who can tell me they know they answer before I know what the question is. The biggest thing that makes a good employee in this business is simple logic skills. The best employees can say "ya, I can do that", knowing they have no clue how, and figure out how to do it before you figured out they can't.


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## Amiers

Golf clap Footer, but I said all that in my own way in the comments section of the survey.

None the less...

Doing research on them they are up an coming give them some wiggle room. I think it's a great idea. It takes out the interview process once it has accumulated enough data about clients/techs. No longer will you have to know if the Tech knows or not or if the employee is shady before you step into the door.


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## Footer

Amiers said:


> Golf clap Footer, but I said all that in my own way in the comments section of the survey.



Great, he came to a forum asking for feedback and criticism and I gave that. You don't come to a forum asking for comments only via PM.


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## NateJanota

@Footer I'm going to do my best to answer every one of your concerns, or take steps to better address them! Regardless, thanks for taking the time to give me feedback and critique!


Footer said:


> Just curious, what is your background? This survey seems to be written by a person with very little production experience.... A lot of the things that I expected to be there were not. The entire thing felt rather childish.



10 years doing lighting design, programming, and show control, as well as 8 years of simultaneous experience in professional videography with an Associates in Film, Media Arts, and a Bachelors in English just for fun. I'm sorry you find the entire thing to be "childish"; could you please provide a specific example and demonstrate why said example is "childish"?


Footer said:


> Many of the jobs I regularly hire were not there.


I am only one man, and my entire company research team right now is only three people covering lighting, audio, and video. Even then, the point of the surveys is to garner feedback and support to strengthen the quantity and quality of data available. Also remember this is an Alpha-phase primitive survey designed to gather base info to meet certain research criteria; it is not the end-all be-all.


Footer said:


> Also, you never asked about location and relocation. That is probably the biggest thing.


Most people relocate once during their careers for a job that is more advantageous, whether 10 miles or 1000 miles. Let's say there were a resource that could help them find consistent (read: full-time or contracted) work that matched a large portion of their ideals for a workplace. Would it not be wise to select a job that both provides and suits your preferences?


Footer said:


> Also, you never asked about what kind of shows you are looking at. An audio engineer who only mixes legit theatre would be lost working in my theatre that produces mostly concerts. Likewise an LD who does mostly corporate work would be lost lighting a concert.


Once again, I reiterate that this survey is primitive and is only designed to cover basic criteria. The algorithm which RTECS is working on (the matching algorithm) uses 350 individual data points to plot the type of person the Tech is, and the type of gig the Client is hosting. As research helps us deepen our research pool, the algorithm will also evolve to be more detailed.


Footer said:


> I'm truly not certain if there is a need for this. Artsearch and offstagejobs.com do a good job in fulfilling this need. If I need a head hunter I go to my facebook contacts. My current audio engineer was hired this way... through a contact that I met on CB actually.


Popular research disagrees with your first statement here. While I am not permitted to divulge my research without you signing an NDA (I paid for the research from a respected firm), I _*can*_ say that most people surveyed (covering nearly 90% of industry averages) would have preferred to shop for their gigs, or have a client shop for them, _*IF*_ it had resulted in a better matchup for both parties. Incidentally, personal bias both positive or negative hurts technicians of all backgrounds and skill levels. For example, the "new guy" in the industry who may have spent 5 years working his rear off to study lighting on his own time shouldn't be shunned for the 5-year-veteran who holds a degree and some opinionated referrals. Give the 'new guy' a chance. This is called "deforestation." When you cut down trees without planting saplings, new forests never grow. When the industry continues to eschew the "new people" in the industry for the bloodied, battle-tested veterans, then the industry ages and wears and eventually stagnates.



Footer said:


> If you are looking for real research you should be asking what makes a successful employee for your organization, not what you are looking for in an employee. You never asked about team dynamics or basic management styles. You also never asked about how that employee deals with clients or how good they are at thinking on their feet. I want someone with good customer service skills and someone who can tell me they know they answer before I know what the question is. The biggest thing that makes a good employee in this business is simple logic skills. The best employees can say "ya, I can do that", knowing they have no clue how, and figure out how to do it before you figured out they can't.


I'd be violating the NDA I signed if I explained to you how RTECS has already covered all of this. But let me put it this way: the algorithm we're developing maps both technicians and clients/gigs across several hundred quantifiable data points. These points make up a multi-dimensional profile. Every technician has a unique profile, and like thumbprints and snowflakes, no two are alike. Same with gigs and clients. That means out there there are both a Client and a Tech whose profiles are similarly matching enough to satisfy both of them *beyond* the mere "it's a job." How many people can say their passions are fueling their work and their ambitions are being noted and rewarded? In-depth research says not many. Ironically, no one is taking steps to quantify technician desires.

As a final note, did you know that across over 1200 gigs held weekly in the United States, there is a global satisfaction rate of only 40% between Technicians and Clients? (Here I'm referring to Tech's satisfaction with pay, benefits, location, workload, coworkers, etc; and Client's satisfaction with payout, work done, quality of work, popular opinion, subordination, etc) According to additional research, did you know that Technicians hired into workplaces where their ambitions, creativity, and skills are highest respected and utilized produce a higher satisfaction rate for themselves and clients by an increase of nearly 170%? Google, Disney, Yahoo, Tesla, XCOR, and Apple are just a few companies who have utilized a system of matching their employees to ideal work to optimize worker happiness and maximize profit and throughput. RTECS is merely looking to broaden the search and allow all technicians nationally (and hopefully eventually globally) to experience a similar level of happiness and work output.

Thanks for your time and I appreciate your feedback.


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## NateJanota

Amiers said:


> Golf clap Footer, but I said all that in my own way in the comments section of the survey.
> 
> None the less...
> 
> Doing research on them they are up an coming give them some wiggle room. I think it's a great idea. It takes out the interview process once it has accumulated enough data about clients/techs. No longer will you have to know if the Tech knows or not or if the employee is shady before you step into the door.



Thank you very much for bringing that point up! One of the many things the founders of RTECS discussed was the question "Would you have taken your current job knowing "______" about it?" where you can fill in the blank with a surprise. The surprise could be lack of advancement opportunities, inconsistent hours or pay, poor benefits, smothered or falsified company reputation, etc.

Let's also consider for a moment that there's the "little guy" to think of on the Client side of things. Joe Shmoe Band-o probably doesn't have the means, connections, nor money to hire the best and brightest from a Union House or local pool. But what if they could one-stop shop for someone *willing* to take the risk and work for a cheaper rate, whilst simultaneously being allowed to express their creativity? Fostering potential relationships is a key part of being a hiring Client.

RTECS isn't trying to cater to those whose level of care for their work is "it's just a job." That sounds bigoted of me, I know, possibly even naive. However, research shows that a *majority* of people would be so much happier if they were able to just change one or two things about their job to make it a more positive experience.

In an industry as negative, harshly opinionated, unforgiving, and critical as the Technical Entertainment industry, the jump from "new body" to "nobody" is a snap of a finger from someone with an opinion. I'm trying to inject some positive into the process. I also want more people to realize dream careers and opportunities. I'm not naive; I'm just not bitter enough to wave off optimism.


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## Footer

NateJanota said:


> @Footer
> 
> 10 years doing lighting design, programming, and show control, as well as 8 years of simultaneous experience in professional videography with an Associates in Film, Media Arts, and a Bachelors in English just for fun. I'm sorry you find the entire thing to be "childish"; could you please provide a specific example and demonstrate why said example is "childish"?



The language used on several parts of the survey were simply not what I would consider professional. The conversational nature of your questions made me think you thought this was all a joke. Like the following: "So you're looking for a Lighting Guy™, great! Now, you don't have to answer the following question, but trust us: answering us will keep your lamps (and sanity) intact." Mrs. Footer would probably have closed your site and been done with you at that point. I'm not looking for a lighting guy. I'm looking for an entertainment electrician. Preferably like @Mrs. Footer who is ETCP certified. Sex has nothing to do with it. (and you trade marked lighting guy, video guy, sound guy?????) 

I would also work on the word "technical entertainment". I don't think that really describes what we are or what we do. I don't think that I have ever heard that used in common language. Might be too late to change it now, but might be something to think about.


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## NateJanota

Footer said:


> The language used on several parts of the survey were simply not what I would consider professional. The conversational nature of your questions made me think you thought this was all a joke. Like the following: "So you're looking for a Lighting Guy™, great! Now, you don't have to answer the following question, but trust us: answering us will keep your lamps (and sanity) intact." Mrs. Footer would probably have closed your site and been done with you at that point. I'm not looking for a lighting guy. I'm looking for an entertainment electrician. Preferably like @Mrs. Footer who is ETCP certified. Sex has nothing to do with it. (and you trade marked lighting guy, video guy, sound guy?????)
> 
> I would also work on the word "technical entertainment". I don't think that really describes what we are or what we do. I don't think that I have ever heard that used in common language. Might be too late to change it now, but might be something to think about.



I see what you're saying. The reason the survey is a bit glib is to avoid giving people the dreaded "I'm being interrogated syndrome." It's called sense of humour. Maybe it doesn't strike your funny bone, and that's okay! I'm always open to suggestions. But for the few out there whose desire to take things too seriously overrides their desire to see the humor in what they do, it's not worth changing.

I will say this, however. _This is a preliminary survey. Not a website._ You have to have a sense of humour. You can't sit for 10 minutes, complete a survey in utter solemnity, and then anticipate that your answers will reflect you as a person. If that's you, great! The survey doesn't ask you to crack jokes or limmericks or puns. What the survey DOES ask at its core are simple questions with straightforward answers. If the sense of humour injected does not sit right with you, then you are not obligated to laugh nor provide feedback complimenting the humour.

Incidentally, without putting too sharp a point on my opinionated statement: if you're taking issue with the fact that "Lighting Guy" is not gender neutral, then you are putting too sharp a point on YOUR opinionated statements.

Incidentally, as an honest good-natured foot forward, I will gather my team and see if we can't craft a "more serious" survey that takes Political Correctness and jargon into account. Thank you for your feedback!

FOLLOW-UPS: I have noted your critique and it is now on the list of adjustments being made to the survey. The more detailed, less-assisted version will include less forced humour or glibness throughout than previously observed. It should also be noted that, as a B.A. English holder, I fully possess the skills and writing ability necessary to write technical surveys with apt jargon and specific terminology. Forgoing is by choice, not ignorance.


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## MrsFooter

Hey there, just popping in to speak for the away team!

@Footer's right, the "Lighting Guy" thing is really irritating. I know it sounds like some petty neo-feminist bull, but even though great strides have been made, we're still *way* under represented. I still have to stomp on necks when people call me "Sweetheart," I still have road co asking if I sell merch, and I still have road guys trying to take heavy cases away from me because they think I can't handle it. I know it feels like we're past all that here in 2016, but we're not. It's still out there, and I still feel like I have to work twice as hard to prove myself to new people. So to have the survey just assume that I'm a dude, even with no ill intentions, is just another reminder that this is a man's industry and I'm the outsider.

But beyond gender, I also found that title to be slightly demeaning, something akin to "techie." The Lighting Guy is the guy who shows up to the club and pushes the "Red" button on the American DJ controller. I have a degree and a certification. I'm a Theatrical Electrician, a Lighting Designer, and a Lighting Director, but I'm not a Lighting Guy. If I'm going to entrust someone with with forwarding my career, I'd like them to respect my title.


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## NateJanota

Thus this vvvvvv

NateJanota said:


> FOLLOW-UPS: I have noted your critique and it is now on the list of adjustments being made to the survey. The more detailed, less-assisted version will include less forced humour or glibness throughout than previously observed. It should also be noted that, as a B.A. English holder, I fully possess the skills and writing ability necessary to write technical surveys with apt jargon and specific terminology. Forgoing is by choice, not ignorance.



Your feedback IS actually being listened to, and I'm going to make a conscious effort to re-evaluate the surveys and make sure that terms possibly demeaning or under-crediting are no longer used.


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## What Rigger?

Footer said:


> The language used on several parts of the survey were simply not what I would consider professional. The conversational nature of your questions made me think you thought this was all a joke. Like the following: "So you're looking for a Lighting Guy™, great! Now, you don't have to answer the following question, but trust us: answering us will keep your lamps (and sanity) intact." Mrs. Footer would probably have closed your site and been done with you at that point. I'm not looking for a lighting guy. I'm looking for an entertainment electrician. Preferably like @Mrs. Footer who is ETCP certified. Sex has nothing to do with it. (and you trade marked lighting guy, video guy, sound guy?????)
> 
> I would also work on the word "technical entertainment". I don't think that really describes what we are or what we do. I don't think that I have ever heard that used in common language. Might be too late to change it now, but might be something to think about.



I'll agree with Footer on all of his points. The conversational/casual way the questions are written, the broad use of slang terms ("gearhead" isn't the point of reference I'd want a potential employer using to assess my skill level, nor is it a qualifier/quantifier I would use in looking at a candidate. That's entirely too vague of a term, as one example.)

I think I got to the 2nd or 3rd page and decided not to continue. Even when "pretending" I'm looking for a job (I'm not, actually), I found the way everything was worded a turnoff. I doubt I would go this route in the real world.


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## NateJanota

What Rigger? said:


> I'll agree with Footer on all of his points. The conversational/casual way the questions are written, the broad use of slang terms ("gearhead" isn't the point of reference I'd want a potential employer using to assess my skill level, nor is it a qualifier/quantifier I would use in looking at a candidate. That's entirely too vague of a term, as one example.)
> 
> I think I got to the 2nd or 3rd page and decided not to continue. Even when "pretending" I'm looking for a job (I'm not, actually), I found the way everything was worded a turnoff. I doubt I would go this route in the real world.



I don't understand why people continue to pile on this issue. I've said now three times that the issue is being worked on. If you have feedback external to this issue, that would be more useful than to continue beating the issue into the ground. I will also once again point out that this survey caters to three different types of people:
1) People whose understanding of the industry is null (beginning techs and clients with no tech background)
2) People whose understanding of the industry is sufficient
3) Veterans whose understanding of the industry is superior

Needless to say, if you're glancing at the survey section catered to #1 because you stated that you "wanted help" in finding work/techs, then yes, you're going to get a dumbed-down version of the survey. Not EVERY tech and Client has your experience, your vocabulary, and your opinions. In fact, for many low-end, small-scale clients, you're asking too much of them to understand you intrinsically. Thus why there IS a dumbing down to begin with.

*That said, I am going to redirect all future feedback on this particular issue to this statement below:*

NateJanota said:


> FOLLOW-UPS: I have noted your critique and it is now on the list of adjustments being made to the survey. The more detailed, less-assisted version will include less forced humour or glibness throughout than previously observed.



If you have any additional feedback, I'd appreciate it. Thanks for your time.


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## TheaterEd

NateJanota said:


> I don't understand why people continue to pile on this issue. I've said now three times that the issue is being worked on.



Just throwing this out there, people may be willing to take your survey and read a few comments, but there is a lot of text in this thread, so very possible that us users will just 'skim'

That being said. Took the survey and have a couple notes.

First note: I personally don't have any industry certifications, but I do have a degree and there was no place to specifically state what my degree is other than the certifications area. If that is also where degree information should go, some clarification may help.

Second note:I love my job as a high school TD and facility manager, but when you ask me to pick my primary discipline, I had a hard time deciding which that would fall under other than 'other'. Seeing as I pretty much do everything tech-wise, a jack-of-all-trades option might be a good idea, or possibly just check boxes on areas of experience would serve that purpose. For a person like me, I could see myself being happy working in almost any hands-on aspect of theater, so I don't like to have to just pick one or two.

My current situation is that I have off all summer starting next week. I would love to find a theatrical job, but all the summer stock work I have seen started back in May. So if your service would be able to help me then I can see where it would be different than offstage jobs. Oh well, guess I'll just spend my summer at home with my one year old


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## NateJanota

@TheaterEd Thanks for the feedback! Much appreciated. I'll see if I can't address all of your concerns!


TheaterEd said:


> Just throwing this out there, people may be willing to take your survey and read a few comments, but there is a lot of text in this thread, so very possible that us users will just 'skim'


I would appreciate if people would take the time. No good product or service gets developed from shoddy, slapped-together research. Information is power, and I can't make RTECS useful, or help change the hiring environment in Entertainment for the better if I don't have data.

FOLLOWUP: It should also be noted that, with me trying to hold down a full-time job and a part-time job, it's difficult to come up with time to do research, so there's a lot the community can help me with just through feedback alone. If you throw the expense of professional research into the mix (often thousands of dollars for one topic researched), I'm really short on trying to establish solid data. This survey is a step in the right direction for a good balance of time and money spent.


TheaterEd said:


> First note: I personally don't have any industry certifications, but I do have a degree and there was no place to specifically state what my degree is other than the certifications area. If that is also where degree information should go, some clarification may help.


Good point. I will make sure to clarify the degree portion and/or add a specific section for entering that. I will offer this as a side note: one reason I am de-emphasizing the degree is because, after nearly 7 months of research, I've learned that the degree doesn't always have influence on someone's skill or abilities as a Technician. It certainly increases their book knowledge and theoretical application skills, but it doesn't substitute for experience in the field. This isn't to say that holding a degree is inferior in any way to being experienced- there's a lot that can be learned from classes that would not be necessarily taught in the field. Sometimes even you are assumed to have learned certain things for certain work applications. But I want to avoid making the degree the primary selling point for any technician; I know some techs without degrees who are incredibly talented! I will ponder your feedback and see if I can't find a better compromise between the two!


TheaterEd said:


> Second note:I love my job as a high school TD and facility manager, but when you ask me to pick my primary discipline, I had a hard time deciding which that would fall under other than 'other'. Seeing as I pretty much do everything tech-wise, a jack-of-all-trades option might be a good idea, or possibly just check boxes on areas of experience would serve that purpose. For a person like me, I could see myself being happy working in almost any hands-on aspect of theater, so I don't like to have to just pick one or two.


As for the "primary discipline", this is a limitation of SurveyMonkey as my hosting web channel right now. I don't have the necessary funding to develop my website myself yet, so I'm forced to develop questions and answers within SurveyMonkey's feature limitations. Right now, I'm trying to get a gauge on what work each technician does the most of.

That said, you bring up a great point about "jack of all trades." I think I will implement that option in some way. SurveyMonkey, unfortunately, doesn't allow me to make a Jack-of-all-trades option and still somehow rank what work each technician does most. For example, a lighting tech who dabbles in audio and then video (respectively) wouldn't be able to check "jack of all trades" and then "lighting" and "video." SurveyMonkey would force him/her to leave it at "jack of all trades." Make sense?



TheaterEd said:


> My current situation is that I have off all summer starting next week. I would love to find a theatrical job, but all the summer stock work I have seen started back in May. So if your service would be able to help me then I can see where it would be different than offstage jobs. Oh well, guess I'll just spend my summer at home with my one year old


There's a market of nearly 1200 hiring gigs [edit] a week in the United States alone, another 3000 globally each week. Out of this market, venue staffing services such as LiveNation Entertainment manage to capture almost 80% of the market (impressive!). If RTECS could capture even 10% of the market, that's nearly 120 jobs connected a week, and nearly 500 techs sourced into employment weekly. That's a decently reasonable yet ambitious goal!

You just gave me an idea, as well, thank you! I need to look into timing and hiring trends within the industry; I haven't analyzed if there is any particular swing up or down with hiring based off of time of year. I will look into that and attempt to integrate it into the survey system.

Thanks again for all the super-useful data! Really *really* appreciated!


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## Footer

NateJanota said:


> There's a market of nearly 1200 hiring stage jobs a week in the United States alone, another 3000 globally each week. Out of this market, venue staffing services such as LiveNation Entertainment manage to capture almost 80% of the market (impressive!). If RTECS could capture even 10% of the market, that's nearly 120 jobs connected a week, and nearly 500 techs sourced into employment weekly. That's a decently reasonable yet ambitious goal!




I find both of those numbers impressively low. If that is what the research you paid good money for is telling you I would not trust your data. At any given time there are at least 100+ shows on the road that require a local crew of 100 or more. I'm in a C market with about a dozen venues that present large scale shows. This area alone hits your 1200 "jobs hired" per week. Finally, Livanation does very little to no actual hiring of "techs". Livenation works with IATSE locals and staffing companies like Crew1/Rhino to fill their calls.


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## NateJanota

Footer said:


> I find both of those numbers impressively low. If that is what the research you paid good money for is telling you I would not trust your data. At any given time there are at least 100+ shows on the road that require a local crew of 100 or more. I'm in a C market with about a dozen venues that present large scale shows. This area alone hits your 1200 "jobs hired" per week. Finally, Livanation does very little to no actual hiring of "techs". Livenation works with IATSE locals and staffing companies like Crew1/Rhino to fill their calls.



1) My mistake. The thread should be read as "1200 gigs hiring techs" per week. This is the national average for gigs hiring externally without internal staff or full-time venue tech staff. The information is reliable, and if you disagree, please cite your source (if you are permitted to).

2) I am aware of LiveNation's purpose. I was wrong to assume that most people do, but I assumed anyway that people would read "venue staffing" as "non-technical" venue staffing. The point I am illustrating here is that LiveNation captures a percentage market in a business similar to the one RTECS is looking to occupy. Instead of hiring venue staff such as ticketing, ushering, janitorial, etc, RTECS is looking to handle technical staffing. I was making the LiveNation analogy as a demonstration of the potential market capture capable of a business such as the one we are creating.

Incidentally, you should be well aware that you cannot make estimates of market capture off of any one segment of the market's peak or typical performance. I take the average across the nation, including states with lower-count markets such as North and South Dakota, Montana, Idaho, Oklahoma, etc. These states possess a smaller market and necessarily lower gig count weekly. These are being taken into account. The 1200 average count of gigs hiring weekly maintains a standard deviation of approximately 150. I will need to do additional research on whether or not that standard deviation has historic trends based off of time of year.

FOLLOWUP: I am also being conservative with all numbers in order to avoid being too aggressive with my business model. If I attempt to base potential business stability off of peak or atypical performance, my model will be weak.

FOLLOWUP 2: @Footer Thank you for taking the time to point these things out to me. You're enabling me to take notes and better reinforce my data through our conversation. Sincerely, thank you!


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## ruinexplorer

NateJanota said:


> I will offer this as a side note: one reason I am de-emphasizing the degree is because, after nearly 7 months of research, I've learned that the degree doesn't always have influence on someone's skill or abilities as a Technician.



Even that those in the industry don't always give much stock in degrees after a time, HR departments put a lot of emphasis them. If you want to attract upper end corporate clients, which many consider dream jobs, then you really need to consider it. If you are working in the educational or repertory theater market, any position aside from entry level will require a degree. If you want to limit your job searching to concerts and events, which the questions for the seasoned professional seemed to lead to, then certainly de-emphasize it.


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## NateJanota

ruinexplorer said:


> Even that those in the industry don't always give much stock in degrees after a time, HR departments put a lot of emphasis them. If you want to attract upper end corporate clients, which many consider dream jobs, then you really need to consider it. If you are working in the educational or repertory theater market, any position aside from entry level will require a degree. If you want to limit your job searching to concerts and events, which the questions for the seasoned professional seemed to lead to, then certainly de-emphasize it.



I can see where a degree matters on the higher-end of things. Right now, RTECS is definitely trying to serve the freelance and lower-end hourly markets. The salaried and corporate tiers are definitely on our radar, but I'm trying to think of a way to compromise between the two. I've met a fair share of HR departments who don't know the difference between a Lighting Designer and a Lighting Programmer- and that's an HR department for one of the world's leading Entertainment brands. That kind of misunderstanding should somehow be clarified, and the problem nullified.

How would you bridge the gap, since you brought up such a good point (if you don't mind saying so, that is)? How would you propose handling HR departments who hire for technical jobs without knowing the in-depth technical criteria? Their misunderstanding leads to poor hiring choices, thousands wasted, and hours burned. I am a first-hand witness to such incidents. Do you think a hiring standard for techs at that salary level would suffice? Maybe testing? A different interview process? Or something maybe I'm missing?


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## GreyWyvern

Footer said:


> (and you trade marked lighting guy, video guy, sound guy?????)


No, he didn't. I just did a search.


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## gafftaper

NateJanota said:


> I can see where a degree matters on the higher-end of things. Right now, RTECS is definitely trying to serve the freelance and lower-end hourly markets.



I'm a little confused about who your target client market is. If I'm trying to get work as an hourly tech, I'm going to ask around to my friends, ask friends to submit my resume at venues they work at, go to my local Union and ask for work, apply at Rhino or LiveNation, etc... There are many easy routes to finding hourly work that cover me for the vast majority of hourly work in the area. Why do I need you? On the flip side, I manage a High School Performing Arts Center. I have 11 hourly people on my crew. All of them have multiple other gigs they work. If I need to hire someone else I ask one of them who they know that I should add to the list or I call a few old friends. Everyone I've ever hired has come with solid references from people I know. No need for a service to help me with that, it's already quite easy finding good people.

It seems to me your market is the higher end jobs. If I'm running a large road house theater and I want to hire the best LD in the country willing to move to my region, it would be useful to have a service help me find a great one.


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## NateJanota

Hey @gafftaper, here's some answers to your feedback! I appreciate you taking the time to write, by the way.


gafftaper said:


> There are many easy routes to finding hourly work that cover me for the vast majority of hourly work in the area. Why do I need you?


Let me ask a simple question: if you could find a passionate individual who not only met your requirements, but exceeded your expectations in a multitude of ways, met your budget cap, did great work, and at the end of the day walked away with a high level of work satisfaction, would you hire that person? I see no reason you wouldn't; in fact, common sense says it would be foolish not to, it's basically gold on a silver platter. Here's the issue: at the end of the day, all recommendations (good or bad) about who you should hire 1) are prone to bias and 2) don't always aptly describe techs trying to make their break into the industry.

Say Jo Shmo is starting out as a Lighting Technician. He lives in a small town with 16,000 people. His local theater is not hiring and he can't afford to donate hours to his community theater since has to eat and pay the rent. He needs quality work. He hears that a theater run by gafftaper (<insert your name here>) in Seattle is hiring. He looks up a profile for this particular client and realizes it's everything he could possibly hope for in starting off as a Technician. Let's say that you glance over his profile and notice that he runs a positive track record of motivation, willingness to learn and adapt, and a level of knowledge that he has gained through study on his own personal time. He has neither professional degree, work experience, nor qualifications, but he is a worthwhile investment because he is inexpensive to hire, is willing to move and work, and is a low risk hire. What are the chances your friends know Jo Shmo? He's from a small town of 16,000 somewhere in Arizona. His passion is to become an LD. He has no opportunities to advance. But your theatre is hiring.

What do you do? Your recommendations, an application, and a resume aren't going to solve this situation. And before *anyone* says that "this doesn't happen," I advise caution. Research indicates almost 30% of starting techs didn't have connections, a degree, or previous experience to start with. And if that research isn't good enough, I myself am an example.

*If you have the time and willingness to read one more scenario, please consider the following:*
Let's say you are the lead singer of ABC Rock Band. You're from a decently artsy town (say, Miami or LA) and you've been gigging for a while. You've got some cash, some good tunes, and a few venues. However, you know no professional Entertainment Technicians, your budget is limited, but your imagination is not. Who do you aim to hire? You could scour some Classified Ads (risky), perhaps ask the Union (there's always strings attached), ask some friends (but if you're just starting off your odds are still slim), place a hiring ad on a website somewhere (also risky), or use this thing called RTECS. You don't know the difference between a Lighting Programmer and a Designer, and you don't know why the acoustics of a room matters to your Audio Technician. You just know you need people.

What do you do? RTECS could recommend someone to you who, while they might not have 20 years of experience, is willing to tolerate and work around your lack of knowledge of the industry... someone who is willing to carry your passion into their technical work and give you a great result, all for a great price. Best of all, these techs you're shopping for just happen to dream of tech'ing it with a rock band. What an awesome coincidence!

Again, before anyone says "this doesn't happen," yes it does. All the time. Too frequently. Believe me, without money, technical expertise, or an amazing business pitch, many talented band gigs, corporate events, and small clubs and bars end up getting staffing that is sub-par, and hurts their bottom line. Worst of all, the cycle of poor budget = poor tech = poor result = poor budget etc, etc, continues ad nauseum.

I aim to fix that.


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## What Rigger?

NateJanota said:


> I can see where a degree matters on the higher-end of things. Right now, RTECS is definitely trying to serve the freelance and lower-end hourly markets. The salaried and corporate tiers are definitely on our radar, but I'm trying to think of a way to compromise between the two. I've met a fair share of HR departments who don't know the difference between a Lighting Designer and a Lighting Programmer- and that's an HR department for one of the world's leading Entertainment brands. That kind of misunderstanding should somehow be clarified, and the problem nullified.
> 
> *How would you bridge the gap, since you brought up such a good point (if you don't mind saying so, that is)? How would you propose handling HR departments who hire for technical jobs without knowing the in-depth technical criteria? Their misunderstanding leads to poor hiring choices, thousands wasted, and hours burned. I am a first-hand witness to such incidents. Do you think a hiring standard for techs at that salary level would suffice? Maybe testing? A different interview process? Or something maybe I'm missing*?




Careful now, ruinexplorer, to my eye this comes across as asking for (free) help in developing RTECS product. I'd seek compensation before contributing to this venture. Are we not all paid professionals with experience dating back to freshman year of high school?

*Let's say you are the lead singer of ABC Rock Band. You're from a decently artsy town (say, Miami or LA) and you've been gigging for a while. You've got some cash, some good tunes, and a few venues. However, you know no professional Entertainment Technicians, your budget is limited, but your imagination is not. Who do you aim to hire? You could scour some Classified Ads (risky), perhaps ask the Union (there's always strings attached), ask some friends (but if you're just starting off your odds are still slim), place a hiring ad on a website somewhere (also risky), or use this thing called RTECS. You don't know the difference between a Lighting **Programmer** and a Designer, and you don't know why the **acoustics** of a room matters to your Audio Technician. You just know you need people.*
The "strings attached" you refer to when using Union labor is called "fair labor practices". It allows for wages that a person can live off of and avoids abusive practices of workers. You like two days off a week? You like overtime pay? You like holidays off? You like things like insurance/medical benefits? Your friends outside the industry like a 5 day work week? An 8 hour work day? Thank a Union member. Dismissive terms such as "strings attached" display a less than full understanding of the big picture. I'm not saying that's how you think, but that's how it comes across. Again, a turn off to this service you're offering.

Now, if you're a band "just starting off", 99 out of 100 times you don't have the money for hiring road crew. You deal with the house crew at the venues you get into, and if the band isn't humping their own gear and sharing the driving of the clapped out van, there might be one extra person as a Tour/road manager & FOH person. In the several 1200 seat or so venues I've worked, one or mayyyybe two people are touring with legacy acts and up and coming bands simply don't hire outside of their friends/relatives. Your brother will drive the van for beer. Someone looking for a real job probably won't. 

Have a day!


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## NateJanota

What Rigger? said:


> Careful now, ruinexplorer, to my eye this comes across as asking for (free) help in developing RTECS product. I'd seek compensation before contributing to this venture. Are we not all paid professionals with experience dating back to freshman year of high school?


Your statement, while reasonably cautious, is marginally pointed. But sidestepping your subtle hostility, I will state that I didn't come to the CB community to sell the product. I came to the CB community to gain advice, feedback, learn from my elders and superiors. I could have paid professional researchers another several tens of thousands for research that you would all then spend hours on CB taking apart with criticisms. But instead I came to the source to see what I could learn. At the end of the day, RTECS' only end goal is to make a positive change for the better within Entertainment. The only purpose of income is to pay the expenses that come from operating that I myself can barely already afford to pay. Please keep that respectfully in mind; I didn't have your opportunities in high school.



What Rigger? said:


> Dismissive terms such as "strings attached" display a less than full understanding of the big picture. I'm not saying that's how you think, but that's how it comes across. Again, a turn off to this service you're offering.


Why make something of nothing by assuming (we all know what happens when assumptions get made) that "strings attached" is completely negative? It's both positive and negative. It results in better conditions for workers but also results in difficulties for smaller gigs unable to meet the stringent legal requirements. Unions are _*always*_ a two-way street; that's why both union and non-union Technicians exist... because the Union is not the end-all, be-all, positive OR negative. It is a neutral entity with contractual obligations. The service I'm offering has nothing to do with, is not endorsed by, and does not endorse Union membership, and neither does it discourage it.


What Rigger? said:


> Someone looking for a real job probably won't.


This is an ambitiously bold assumption to make. Interestingly, I would give up several dollars of my pay, a marginal amount of job security, and a little extra of my time to find a gig I really *enjoy*. Compromises can be made where passions and productivity meet. Don't assume that your expectations and the anticipations of the Technician always have to be in direct conflict.

RTECS has one purpose, and that is to connect ALL technicians with work. Technicians come in too many personality types, experience levels, educational levels, motivations, passions, and drives to possibly state that one person's hiring methods will always work for someone else. That's why the "system" is already flawed. And there is no argument anyone can present to me (yet) that can negate the fact that the hiring system for Technicians is for the most part hit-and-miss/guess-and-check. For every success you can prove I can prove a failure where the same methods were used. But if we could somehow quantify more data points, we have an *increased* chance that both the Technician and the Client will be satisfied. There is no humanly possible way for an application, resume, interview, recommendation letter, or Facebook page to quantify that data. There's deeper levels than just those things.


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## gafftaper

NateJanota said:


> Hey @gafftaper Here's the issue: at the end of the day, all recommendations (good or bad) about who you should hire 1) are prone to bias and 2) don't always aptly describe techs trying to make their break into the industry.



Not sure that I completely buy those points. First after decades in this industry I have a great group of friends around the area. Who I know the work of and trust the judgement of. When my buddy Dave tells me a person should be hired, there's a great deal of meaning behind it. I know Dave well. I know what he expects of his crew. Yeah that opinion is biased, but I know exactly how it is biased towards good hard working people. There are people who I would take the word of without and hire without even looking at a resume. There are others I would move a little slower on. It all depends on how well I know that reference. As for being biased against techs trying to make their break, yeah it is. And that's the way this industry is. To most of us, years of experience has high value. The reason is when things go wrong, I would much rather have someone who has spent the last 20, 30, or 40 years working in theater and has been through it all before to keep the show running. Someone half his age who thinks he knows it all, but only has a couple years of post educational theater real world work is simply not as qualified. 

Not that I would never hire a young tech. I have several on my team, most of them are great. But I always schedule at least one of the older guys to lead the team for when things go wrong. 


NateJanota said:


> Hey @gafftaperSay Jo Shmo is starting out as a Lighting Technician. He lives in a small town with 16,000 people. His local theater is not hiring and he can't afford to donate hours to his community theater since has to eat and pay the rent. He needs quality work. He hears that a theater run by gafftaper (<insert your name here>) in Seattle is hiring. He looks up a profile for this particular client and realizes it's everything he could possibly hope for in starting off as a Technician. Let's say that you glance over his profile and notice that he runs a positive track record of motivation, willingness to learn and adapt, and a level of knowledge that he has gained through study on his own personal time. He has neither professional degree, work experience, nor qualifications, but he is a worthwhile investment because he is inexpensive to hire, is willing to move and work, and is a low risk hire. What are the chances your friends know Jo Shmo? He's from a small town of 16,000 somewhere in Arizona. His passion is to become an LD. He has no opportunities to advance. But your theatre is hiring.



So we are again back to what I said about how I'm confused by your target audience. No one in their right mind should ever move to another city for a lower end hourly tech job. Move for a job as LD at a big Regional LORT theater sure! But not to be hourly crew at Gaff's Theater. The guys on my staff average around 15 hours a month in my space and either have a day job not in theater or they work for at least 5 (if not closer to 10) other theaters where they scrape together enough hours to survive through a combination of gigs.


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## NateJanota

gafftaper said:


> As for being biased against techs trying to make their break, yeah it is. And that's the way this industry is


This needs to change. While you may have had opportunities that newer techs do not have, it's not fair to assume that they'll get it somewhere else. Why not reach down and help? Because you can't reasonably be expected to help every single tech looking to find work. THERE'S just one potential market for what I'm doing.


gafftaper said:


> The reason is when things go wrong, I would much rather have someone who has spent the last 20, 30, or 40 years working in theater and has been through it all before to keep the show running


This is the argument "you need experience to get a job to get experience." Where does that infinite cycle begin? With a break. Certain people (namely, gigs who can't afford better or are not quite ready for the jump to 20-year vet) will pay for a tech with less experience. It may surprise you, but there is a demand for it. There's so much more about RTECS that I just can't put into words without an entire book. RTECS has a vision as large as it is simple. There are too many exceptions to the rule. I want to start by filling those gaps. Interestingly, problems such as "Lighting Programmer with no design abilities" doing a Lighting Designer's job is also a common theme that relates back to where that particular tech started their career! The right job leads to the right opportunities, you understand that!


gafftaper said:


> So we are again back to what I said about how I'm confused by your target audience. No one in their right mind should ever move to another city for a lower end hourly tech job.


Let me tell you a short story. 18 something student from poor family gets a scholarship to college. College cuts budgets, drops student on skull. Student in desire to finish education takes on loans he can never afford to repay. Financial aid gets denied prior to senior year. Student forced to enter workplace with a few odd jobs and only some odds-and-ends skills within the Technical Theatre work that he did throughout high school at various freelance events. His career only accepts degree holders, so he switches hobby into his career and his old career becomes a hobby. He's starving and evicted from his home because he can't hold enough hours at his local theatre. After putting 134 applications in for minimum wage jobs, he's desperate to find work. He's got an empty credit card, so he rips up stakes, moves across country to a job who promised him a great salary doing great Theatre work for a great company. They lay him off after 5 months due to budget cuts, leaving him with the debts from moving and not enough experience to sell to anyone else.

That's me. I wasn't in my right mind? Welcome to my life, I dare you to critique it. Please, tell me how I made the wrong decision to break out of my misery and attempt to make something of myself. Please, do make an attempt to evaluate my life decisions and tell me where it all went wrong.

For some Technicians... lots of them... they don't have the educational, career, financial, or experience opportunities everyone else might have had. Let's give them a chance. Don't ever dare to look at those trying to reach your lofty perch and lecture them on what they're doing wrong. I will never look at those who attempt to learn from me with even my low-level experience and tell them to rough it and just "that's how the industry is."

Forgive my passion; I mean no offense nor harm. I didn't start RTECS to make it rich. I didn't join Technical Theatre to get rich. I didn't do it for any reason but passionate drive and motivation. I just want to help the struggling, and if that bothers other people, I don't apologize. RTECS isn't for the tech who's got it made in the shade with a life he's content with. It's for the Techs and Clients who just can't seem to nail it down. Please understand that much.

EMPHASIS: Text forums never quite get tone or attitude right; please don't take what I say as hostility- it is only impassioned creativity at work. Nothing more, nothing less.


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## josh88

/Wall of text

I'll go check out the survey's in a minute, its been a long week of shows and moving, but here's my unsolicited 2 cents from what I've read so far.

Maybe its the area I'm in, maybe its that I'm really good. But I took a job teaching 5 years ago and I'm in the process of moving on from that, but in that time I've worked as many side gigs as I have time for. I've never applied or looked for work. I've never needed someone to help. I never "broke in" it just happened. I dealt with rental groups, they liked me, word spread. I mean some seriously large stuff, gigs I probably WAS qualified for, but couldn't do as a full time teacher. It wasn't too long before I started living Gafftaper's signature. I have a feeling it'll be years before I have a situation larger that a few I screwed up in this period. 

Long story short. I'm not sure I'm buying in either. Passion is great but passion and skill get you the work. The more shitty, low pay jobs you do and shine at, the more people ask you for more. Be good, work hard and your reputation does wonders. I guess for me this goes back to the age old advice around here of do whatever you need to do and do it well. Work at starbucks or wherever to pay the bills and start pushing boxes somewhere. If you aren't an ass, the phone will keep ringing. I've found this true in a major city and especially true in the middle of nowhere. When there's 5 guys that do a job and 3 of them are cocky assholes, you can pretty quickly have the market in your hand... you just might be getting paid in corn. Moving while broke and in debt never makes sense. There's a reason I tell my students in tech, if you can do anything else and be happy, do it. Theatre can always be a hobby and if you enjoy something else, make bank for awhile and if you decide to go for it full time, you've got the resources. If you won't be happy doing anything else, then dive in head first but be willing to work your ass off, take every gig, work doing anything you can on the side, play everything smart and learn to live frugal. 

I'd never pay more for someone with less experience. I'd pay less for someone with less, but I'd give the other person a chance to do something they can't screw up and move up in the world. I had a rental through this weekend. I had another show and couldn't work it. I could have recommended the usual guy but he's expensive as hell and this rental needed someone cheaper so I recommended a former student. Because he knew the space, he's capable (and has shown me over 4 years of working his way up through shows for me) and could do what the rental needed for less cost to them. Our world, more than anything really, truly comes down to who you know more than anything else.

Probably not helpful, I'm just not sure I get the end game or the statistics since they don't match up with my experiences in life.


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## GreyWyvern

NateJanota said:


> This needs to change. While you may have had opportunities that newer techs do not have, it's not fair to assume that they'll get it somewhere else. Why not reach down and help? Because you can't reasonably be expected to help every single tech looking to find work. THERE'S just one potential market for what I'm doing.


Good luck with that! Sorry to be blunt, but I just don't think that an old, tight-knit community industry like this is going to change the way it operates just because some kid doesn't like it.


NateJanota said:


> Let me tell you a short story. 18 something student from poor family gets a scholarship to college. College cuts budgets, drops student on skull. Student in desire to finish education takes on loans he can never afford to repay. Financial aid gets denied prior to senior year. Student forced to enter workplace with a few odd jobs and only some odds-and-ends skills within the Technical Theatre work that he did throughout high school at various freelance events. His career only accepts degree holders, so he switches hobby into his career and his old career becomes a hobby. He's starving and evicted from his home because he can't hold enough hours at his local theatre. After putting 134 applications in for minimum wage jobs, he's desperate to find work. He's got an empty credit card, so he rips up stakes, moves across country to a job who promised him a great salary doing great Theatre work for a great company. They lay him off after 5 months due to budget cuts, leaving him with the debts from moving and not enough experience to sell to anyone else.


I missed the part where he got his IATSE card and started working gigs, getting to know people and networking, and putting in the hard work to prove himself and work his way up in the industry.


NateJanota said:


> That's me. I wasn't in my right mind? Welcome to my life, I dare you to critique it. Please, tell me how I made the wrong decision to break out of my misery and attempt to make something of myself. Please, do make an attempt to evaluate my life decisions and tell me where it all went wrong.


One wrong decision was taking on debt to try to get a job that won't pay you enough to repay the debt. The are several threads on CB discussing just that. Another one is arguing with people that are trying to help you out. You are getting lots of great feedback and advice that you are just pushing back. That is a good way to get a bad name for yourself. This industry is a tight-knit community. Everyone knows everyone else. Word spreads like wildfire. Not only do you have to be careful about what you do, but what you say as well.

What are you really trying to get out of RTECS? A job for yourself? That's how it is beginning to look.


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## RonHebbard

GreyWyvern said:


> Good luck with that! Sorry to be blunt, but I just don't think that an old, tight-knit community industry like this is going to change the way it operates just because some kid doesn't like it.
> 
> 
> I missed the part where he got his IATSE card and started working gigs, getting to know people and networking, and putting in the hard work to prove himself and work his way up in the industry.
> 
> 
> One wrong decision was taking on debt to try to get a job that won't pay you enough to repay the debt. The are several threads on CB discussing just that. Another one is arguing with people that are trying to help you out. You are getting lots of great feedback and advice that you are just pushing back. That is a good way to get a bad name for yourself. This industry is a tight-knit community. Everyone knows everyone else. Word spreads like wildfire. Not only do you have to be careful about what you do, but what you say as well.
> 
> What are you really trying to get out of RTECS? A job for yourself? That's how it's beginning to look.


If you do something absolutely stellar, it spreads pretty quick. If you screw up REALLY badly, you won't believe how fast it spreads.
Toodleoo!
Ron


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## NateJanota

GreyWyvern said:


> Good luck with that! Sorry to be blunt, but I just don't think that an old, tight-knit community industry like this is going to change the way it operates just because some kid doesn't like it.
> 
> 
> I missed the part where he got his IATSE card and started working gigs, getting to know people and networking, and putting in the hard work to prove himself and work his way up in the industry.
> 
> 
> One wrong decision was taking on debt to try to get a job that won't pay you enough to repay the debt. The are several threads on CB discussing just that. Another one is arguing with people that are trying to help you out. You are getting lots of great feedback and advice that you are just pushing back. That is a good way to get a bad name for yourself. This industry is a tight-knit community. Everyone knows everyone else. Word spreads like wildfire. Not only do you have to be careful about what you do, but what you say as well.
> 
> What are you really trying to get out of RTECS? A job for yourself? That's how it is beginning to look.



No, actually it might surprise you how much of the feedback is getting noted. I'm studying and paying attention, and learning from everyone's advice. I already have a job, and am content with it to be perfectly honest. I just have bigger dreams and ambitions than many other people I know, and I also have a passion for other people succeeding. Don't worry! Every thing that is said here is noted, analyzed, and thought about. You are all helping me most by providing your feedback and criticisms. A lot of it makes for productive research. Some of it confirms things I've already learned, some of it teaches me something new, some surprises, some doesn't.

As for my debt decision, you need to be more empathetic. Put yourself in a college student's shoes. The government denied your financial aid. Family can't afford to help you. Your local town is so small that no job can afford to pay you a livable wage (and I'm not talking $15/hr, I'm talking $8/hr) AND give you hours. Then you get this job offer through a "friend": a full-time, salaried gig across country with great benefits, plenty of work, in a booming industry. Come on, move on down, try it! Wouldn't you give that even a portion of thought? And to be fair, I didn't have any mentors or guidance when I was living in Arizona struggling to buy ramen to eat... I had to learn the hard way. That's why I borrowed enough books on lighting to teach myself what I know now. Every screw up I've ever made has been a learning experience.

As for the IATSE card, prepare yourself for a shock: no one ever told me about that. *gasp* You don't have to believe it, but it's true. So here's your opportunity to educate me in a polite, mentor-like manner. I'm listening. As for getting to know people, who do you get to know in a town of 16,000 with a non-union public theare, church-run community theatre, and an engineering school with a focus in aviation?? Believe me, I tried! Once I moved here to FL I started putting out feelers immediately!

I have to keep mentioning that text-based forums never allow for adequate breathing room with tone and attitude. Everyone reads what they _want_ to hear; people looking for an argument read things in an argumentative manner. If I come across that way, I'm not stupid enough to arrogantly say "that's your problem." Instead, I'll own up to it and say "I apologize for my attitude!" Please just understand that nothing I'm doing is out of any desire to do _*anything but*_ make the industry better.

Thanks again for the feedback.

And @RonHebbard I'm open to suggestions!


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## josh88

NateJanota said:


> As for my debt decision, you need to be more empathetic. Put yourself in a college student's shoes. The government denied your financial aid. Family can't afford to help you. Your local town is so small that no job can afford to pay you a livable wage (and I'm not talking $15/hr, I'm talking $8/hr) AND give you hours. Then you get this job offer through a "friend": a full-time, salaried gig across country with great benefits, plenty of work, in a booming industry. Come on, move on down, try it! Wouldn't you give that even a portion of thought? And to be fair, I didn't have any mentors or guidance when I was living in Arizona struggling to buy ramen to eat... I had to learn the hard way. That's why I borrowed enough books on lighting to teach myself what I know now. Every screw up I've ever made has been a learning experience.
> 
> As for the IATSE card, prepare yourself for a shock: no one ever told me about that. *gasp* You don't have to believe it, but it's true. So here's your opportunity to educate me in a polite, mentor-like manner. I'm listening. As for getting to know people, who do you get to know in a town of 16,000 with a non-union public theare, church-run community theatre, and an engineering school with a focus in aviation?? Believe me, I tried! Once I moved here to FL I started putting out feelers immediately!
> And @RonHebbard I'm open to suggestions!



I've been in those shows. Those exact same shoes. I worked and freelanced during college to keep from accruing any debt and if nobody mentioned IA as an option, your schooling and own research was inadequate. IA certainly isn't for everybody, I have no real desire to join given what I want to do and where I want to work. My college town was 20k during the school season and less than 10 in the off season. No union around, one roadhouse 30 minutes away. What did I do to learn? I did lighting for high schools in the area. networked, rebuilt a program in an inner city, figured out what experience I needed, what I wasn't getting from school and made it happen on my own. Its part of why I'm still learning to say no, since I don't NEED the work anymore.


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## 9voltnewbie

NateJanota said:


> 10 years doing lighting design, programming, and show control, as well as 8 years of simultaneous experience in professional videography with an Associates in Film, Media Arts, and a Bachelors in English just for fun.



I'm confused, where were these degrees earned? You mentioned Embry-Riddle, but there was no other mention of another college or university.


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## dvsDave

NateJanota said:


> Please just understand that nothing I'm doing is out of any desire to do _*anything but*_ make the industry better.



Hey Nate,

I am going to offer some advice. 

I started CB back when I was a freshman in college. I made a LOT of missteps at first and there were guys who decided that CB was an idea worth investing their time in and they helped me correct some of my obviously rookie mistakes when it came to understanding this industry. So, I want to pass onto you some of what I learned.

These guys are trying to help you. Please understand that and try not to be so defensive and argumentative. They are trying to help you understand what you don't understand. It's clear to everyone here that you have very little experience and don't know how this industry actually works. It's insulting to some that you are trying to solve a problem when you clearly don't have enough experience in the industry to know how it works.

Let me give you an example. When I started up ControlBooth, I wrote up an article on how to make your own stage pin extension cables. I spent a couple days documenting my process, and writing up the multi-page article. I was pretty proud of my article and I posted a link to it on the stagecraft mailing list, and then went to bed. The next morning, i wake up to the longest email I've ever gotten in my whole life. It was from a guy on the stagecraft mailing list. It was a critique of my article. It was so long, that I printed the email out so I could go over it carefully. It was SIXTEEN PAGES long. It took me hours to go over every single point that he made, from my lack of strain relief on the cable to how I incorrectly stripped the cables, to how I looped the cables around the post in the wrong direction, and finally how I used the wrong cable in the first place.

I was stunned. I thought I knew what I was doing and had spent days on this one article only to have it so thoroughly shredded, in excruciating detail, pointing out every single thing I did wrong. I honestly didn't know how to respond, but I knew that I didn't have the experience or the skills to be able to correct my article, let alone be able to build stage pin extension cables correctly. So, you know what I did? I never wrote a technical article again. Instead, I asked this guy if he would help make sure the advice given by the community on Controlbooth was accurate. That’s how Ship became the first CB moderator. 

I had realized the secret to my success on ControlBooth. I didn’t have to know the details, but I had a duty to understand the industry and provide a platform that would be helpful to the industry. My goal wasn’t to change the industry, but to make sure that people like yourself had access to the information that they needed and good, solid advice from experienced pro’s in the industry. EXACTLY as you are getting now. 

Controlbooth has been around since 2003. All of my success has come because I was smart enough back then to realize that I didn't know anything and I needed to listen and let the real experts do the talking.


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## Adam Lien

dvsDave said:


> Hey Nate,
> 
> I am going to offer some advice.
> 
> I started CB back when I was a freshman in college. I made a LOT of missteps at first and there were guys who decided that CB was an idea worth investing their time in and they helped me correct some of my obviously rookie mistakes when it came to understanding this industry. So, I want to pass onto you some of what I learned.
> 
> These guys are trying to help you. Please understand that and try not to be so defensive and argumentative. They are trying to help you understand what you don't understand. It's clear to everyone here that you have very little experience and don't know how this industry actually works. It's insulting to some that you are trying to solve a problem when you clearly don't have enough experience in the industry to know how it works.
> 
> Let me give you an example. When I started up ControlBooth, I wrote up an article on how to make your own stage pin extension cables. I spent a couple days documenting my process, and writing up the multi-page article. I was pretty proud of my article and I posted a link to it on the stagecraft mailing list, and then went to bed. The next morning, i wake up to the longest email I've ever gotten in my whole life. It was from a guy on the stagecraft mailing list. It was a critique of my article. It was so long, that I printed the email out so I could go over it carefully. It was SIXTEEN PAGES long. It took me hours to go over every single point that he made, from my lack of strain relief on the cable to how I incorrectly stripped the cables, to how I looped the cables around the post in the wrong direction, and finally how I used the wrong cable in the first place.
> 
> I was stunned. I thought I knew what I was doing and had spent days on this one article only to have it so thoroughly shredded, in excruciating detail, pointing out every single thing I did wrong. I honestly didn't know how to respond, but I knew that I didn't have the experience or the skills to be able to correct my article, let alone be able to build stage pin extension cables correctly. So, you know what I did? I never wrote a technical article again. Instead, I asked this guy if he would help make sure the advice given by the community on Controlbooth was accurate. That’s how Ship became the first CB moderator.
> 
> I had realized the secret to my success on ControlBooth. I didn’t have to know the details, but I had a duty to understand the industry and provide a platform that would be helpful to the industry. My goal wasn’t to change the industry, but to make sure that people like yourself had access to the information that they needed and good, solid advice from experienced pro’s in the industry. EXACTLY as you are getting now.
> 
> Controlbooth has been around since 2003. All of my success has come because I was smart enough back then to realize that I didn't know anything and I needed to listen and let the real experts do the talking.




Dave,

My name is Adam and I'm working closely with Nate on this project. I just want to clarify a few things! First off, through the means of typing, I know Nate's posts may come off strong and argumentative when read that way, he's just a very passionate individual. However, I've read through all the posts on this thread and talked with him in person, and he is as well as I am taking all of this advice genuinely! It has been extremely helpful!

We may not have the 20+ years experience that some of the vets have, but we're not inexperienced either. The portion of the industry we're more familiar with, the starting off end of things so to speak is what we're targeting. Once you're in the industry and reputable, yes I feel the way things are works great for people that have the reputation and skill set. However, for technicians starting out or even someone that has recently relocated, it takes time and lots of good reviews and grunt work to work your way up and build the connections you need to make a living. RTECS is a medium for technicians without a lot of experience to be found by clients with similar levels of experience or budget restraints but still the desire to increase the quality of their show. A small speaking event, wedding, graduation, local band, you name it just looking to make themselves look and feel a little more professional but without the budget to hire on a pro lighting designer or audio engineer would benefit from having a website where you can specify a budget and hire someone who's by no means a professional but still a lot better than Joe's brother who dabbles. In that sense its a win win for techs looking to make some money and gain more experience as well as clients on a budget looking for something a step up from a relative but not as high end as a union tech or someone staffed from a production company. That's RTECS main goal. To help both those starting off on the performing end by providing an available list of technicians that fit their needs and budgets and to also aid young techs starting out in the industry. And if the concept does well we would expand into larger portions of the industry, but our target market is the little guy.

I hope this brings some clarification and understanding, once again, we are very open to advice and criticisms. It has all been helpful!

Thanks,
Adam


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## Footer

Adam Lien said:


> A small speaking event, wedding, graduation, local band, you name it just looking to make themselves look and feel a little more professional but without the budget to hire on a pro lighting designer or audio engineer would benefit from having a website where you can specify a budget and hire someone who's by no means a professional but still a lot better than Joe's brother who dabbles. In that sense its a win win for techs looking to make some money and gain more experience as well as clients on a budget looking for something a step up from a relative but not as high end as a union tech or someone staffed from a production company. That's RTECS main goal. To help both those starting off on the performing end by providing an available list of technicians that fit their needs and budgets and to also aid young techs starting out in the industry. And if the concept does well we would expand into larger portions of the industry, but our target market is the little guy.
> 
> I hope this brings some clarification and understanding, once again, we are very open to advice and criticisms. It has all been helpful!
> 
> Thanks,
> Adam



The only issue I have with that is you have to let your "clients" know that. You have the possibility of X promoter who gets annoyed with paying a certain rate and then gets a bunch of kids of your site to do their show. They do it, but they do a lot of things wrong/unsafe/whatever to just get the job done. Maybe someone gets hurt. Maybe someone doesn't. Maybe the show goes off great. Maybe it doesn't. Your basically enabling the "bottom feeder" mentality there. Not saying it will happen, but for the uninformed or cheapskate promoter it is a real possibility. Seems like you are setting yourself up for a race to the bottom. 

Your biggest issue it seams is the simple lack of understanding of how the hiring process works or what makes a good employee. It is clear to me that no one involved at RTECS has ever been involved in staffing a call and maintaining a call list. It is way skewed towards the employee side, not the employer.

Dare I ask what the revenue model is for this? Because if you are charging anyone you could be in for a world of hurt if/when something does go south.


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## Adam Lien

Footer said:


> The only issue I have with that is you have to let your "clients" know that. You have the possibility of X promoter who gets annoyed with paying a certain rate and then gets a bunch of kids of your site to do their show. They do it, but they do a lot of things wrong/unsafe/whatever to just get the job done. Maybe someone gets hurt. Maybe someone doesn't. Maybe the show goes off great. Maybe it doesn't. Your basically enabling the "bottom feeder" mentality there. Not saying it will happen, but for the uninformed or cheapskate promoter it is a real possibility. Seems like you are setting yourself up for a race to the bottom.
> 
> Your biggest issue it seams is the simple lack of understanding of how the hiring process works or what makes a good employee. It is clear to me that no one involved at RTECS has ever been involved in staffing a call and maintaining a call list. It is way skewed towards the employee side, not the employer.
> 
> Dare I ask what the revenue model is for this? Because if you are charging anyone you could be in for a world of hurt if/when something does go south.



Thank you for your comments,

I have been involved in hiring, interviewing and firing. Unfortunately I can't go into great detail about these concepts without an NDA. However, RTECS is not doing any of the actual hiring for the clients. We are simply giving the information and making the most optimal match suggestions for the client to use at his or her discretion. There will be checks and balances on both sides to protect clients and techs. As for payment, it will act as a headhunter service, you don't pay unless you book someone and get satisfactory ratings as well as that someone receives a satisfactory rating. Again I can't get into more fine details, but the fine details and business model were not the point of the thread initially. We're simply looking for feedback via surveys. The advice has been all taken into consideration and we are making additions.


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## Pie4Weebl

New rule on the internet: If you are trying to make a point, it can't be followed up with " I can't give any details without an NDA".

Why am I allowed to make this rule, well I can't tell you with out an NDA


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## dvsDave

This thread is CLOSED until Nate and Adam respond to my Private Message.


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