# ETC S4WRD Color?



## STEVETERRY (Sep 13, 2020)

Watch this space.

ST


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## gafftaper (Sep 13, 2020)

STEVETERRY said:


> Watch this space.
> 
> ST


Oohhhhh! Exciting!


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## DaveySimps (Sep 14, 2020)

Watching..... waiting....


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## macsound (Sep 14, 2020)

Since it's not out yet, anyone want to speculate on a price? 
I'll say $1100, which is too expensive to me, but I think if it's any less than that, you can't justify the $600 street price for the cheapest current S4WRD


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## techieman33 (Sep 14, 2020)

macsound said:


> Since it's not out yet, anyone want to speculate on a price?
> I'll say $1100, which is too expensive to me, but I think if it's any less than that, you can't justify the $600 street price for the cheapest current S4WRD



At $1100 you just buy a color source spot. I think it has to be $800 or less to make financial sense.


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## macsound (Sep 14, 2020)

techieman33 said:


> At $1100 you just buy a color source spot. I think it has to be $800 or less to make financial sense.


Well, a color source spot jr. 
But for those who already have a fleet of of source fours with their preference of barrel etc, even if the price was the same, I think most people would upgrade the "real" S4


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## theatricalmatt (Sep 14, 2020)

I'd love to see some figures on its color rendering, and what sort of output it has, especially in comparison to a CS Spot / CS Spot jr. It's starting to be a crowded field.

I hope it avoids all the overtemp issues the S4Wrds had.


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## gafftaper (Sep 14, 2020)

What I always want to see with new LED devices, and often don't get, is photometric data comparing it to an incandescent fixture with half a dozen standard gel colors. Can it accurately replicate the same colors? How bright is it in comparison?


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## macsound (Sep 14, 2020)

theatricalmatt said:


> I'd love to see some figures on its color rendering, and what sort of output it has, especially in comparison to a CS Spot / CS Spot jr. It's starting to be a crowded field.
> 
> I hope it avoids all the overtemp issues the S4Wrds had.


What overtemp issues? I only have installed 4 and they've been flawless at 100% all day. In a conditioned space, but sometimes exceeding 80 degrees


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## macsound (Sep 14, 2020)

gafftaper said:


> What I always want to see with new LED devices, and often don't get, is photometric data comparing it to an incandescent fixture with half a dozen standard gel colors. Can it accurately replicate the same colors? How bright is it in comparison?


I agree. It would be amazing to see. But hard to compare because you're comparing the ETC profile for the console's ability to replicate the specific color. We see it alot in moving lights and sometimes you're looking at it thinking "well, those lights aren't both reaaaalllly R27 or R80 but they seem close enough." 
And the ones we theatre people really care about are the super pale colors and the accuracy of measurement probably has enough slop to cover up any differences or so all over the place like looking at Lustr 2 charts, it's all kind of a wash. Haha, sorry. Unintentional lighting joke.


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## Mac Hosehead (Sep 14, 2020)

I still haven't seen a S4 Jr incandescent and a Colorsource Jr shootout but maybe soon.

Lime emitters?


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## LukeDelwiche (Sep 14, 2020)

Hey, what are all you guys up to tomorrow?

- Luke


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## sk8rsdad (Sep 14, 2020)

LukeDelwiche said:


> Hey, what are all you guys up to tomorrow?
> 
> - Luke


Looking for a new YouTube video?


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## Mac Hosehead (Sep 14, 2020)

Chillin


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## theatricalmatt (Sep 14, 2020)

macsound said:


> What overtemp issues? I only have installed 4 and they've been flawless at 100% all day. In a conditioned space, but sometimes exceeding 80 degrees



From etcconnect.com:


> Source4WRD uses a heat pipe that is especially designed for the product. Inside the heat pipe, water moves at supersonic speeds to rapidly cool the LED emitters. Due to some of the processes the heat pipe went through in manufacture and testing, some pipes were degrading the material inside the shell and causing clogs, resulting in overtemp problems.
> 
> This has resulted in bulk failures on some sites.
> We have been working on the problem for 6 - 9 months and our data shows that the heat pipe has been greatly stabilized and failures are reducing rapidly. But there are still some fixtures in the field that may show this problem.
> ...



I've, uh, worked in one of those installations. (I'm not certain the venue owners reported their issues to ETC; I certainly made them aware of them, however.) It's difficult running a show when units would randomly decide not to show up to work that day.

It *does* sound like the problem's been fixed; I haven't heard about similar problems with the 4Wrd II's.


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## Mac Hosehead (Sep 14, 2020)

YouTube video out.

RGBA, looks pretty cool.


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## FMEng (Sep 14, 2020)

Finally, a bright spot for 2020. (Sorry, I couldn't resist.)


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## bdkdesigns (Sep 14, 2020)

theatricalmatt said:


> From etcconnect.com:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I still come across this issue occasionally. I believe it has all been series 1 though for us. All indoors in well ventilated rooms, just got my most recent one back last week actually.

What is great about ETC though, they are easy to get the issue taken care of. I send them in, and then they show back up repaired pretty quickly. They stand by their products, especially when they have issues.


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## almorton (Sep 15, 2020)

Video unavailable here.


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## theatricalmatt (Sep 15, 2020)

Mac Hosehead said:


> YouTube video out.
> 
> RGBA, looks pretty cool.




Curious why they went with RGBA, rather than a lime emitter, which is ETC's "secret weapon" in their LED fixtures.


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## sk8rsdad (Sep 15, 2020)

Maybe RGBL is unavailable in the form factor. Maybe there is a marketing plan for an S4WRD v2 a couple of years out. Maybe they wanted to leave some incentive in the portfolio to upgrade to ColorSource.


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## theatricalmatt (Sep 15, 2020)

I'm not aware of significant differences in the form factor of different LED emitters -- the elements that affect the wavelength of light being generated are literally microscopic.

A change in color gamut from v1 to a potential v2 would leave me feeling the way I do about the differences between Lustr+ and Lustr Series 2 ... or ColorSource and ColorSource Deep Blue. I suppose the change in form factor between the ColorSource RGBL array and the color 4Wrd would probably mean having the same elements in the array wouldn't yield the same color results to the user; and I'm sure ETC did some phenomenal testing to make certain the color range it could generate was the most practical possible.

Low-key, I'm kind of surprised they didn't announce a tuneable-white 4wrd before the color array. But frankly, I'm slack-jaw amazed they're continuing to push new products to market in this environment!


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## RonHebbard (Sep 15, 2020)

When he plugs in the DMX, he appears to mating a female cable connector. 
Toodleoo! 
Ron Hebbard


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## STEVETERRY (Sep 15, 2020)

theatricalmatt said:


> Curious why they went with RGBA, rather than a lime emitter, which is ETC's "secret weapon" in their LED fixtures.



Because of the four-surface array geometry required by the reflector, and the need for a symmetrical layout with an equal number of each emitter color, broadband amber was the choice over lime for best balance between color gamut and brightest output.

ST


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## STEVETERRY (Sep 15, 2020)

RonHebbard said:


> When he plugs in the DMX, he appears to mating a female cable connector.
> Toodleoo!
> Ron Hebbard



RJ-45.

ST


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## almorton (Sep 15, 2020)

theatricalmatt said:


> Curious why they went with RGBA, rather than a lime emitter, which is ETC's "secret weapon" in their LED fixtures.


Yes, I wondered that, too.


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## dvsDave (Sep 15, 2020)

List on the Source 4WRD Color is $732 USD, so street price will be somewhere around $585


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## dvsDave (Sep 15, 2020)

Question for @STEVETERRY , can the Source 4wrd Color still project gobos with that homogenizer film in front of the reflector? In the video, @Jim Uphoff had his hand in front of the beam and the shadow looked pretty good, but gobos weren't mentioned in the video, one way or another.


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## gafftaper (Sep 15, 2020)

dvsDave said:


> List on the Source 4WRD Color is $732 USD, so street price will be somewhere around $585


That's impressive. They will sell a ton at that price point.


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## aeh20s (Sep 15, 2020)

dvsDave said:


> Question for @STEVETERRY , can the Source 4wrd Color still project gobos with that homogenizer film in front of the reflector? In the video, @Jim Uphoff had his hand in front of the beam and the shadow looked pretty good, but gobos weren't mentioned in the video, one way or another.



On the product page it says that they can do them fine. 





Source 4WRD Color





www.etcconnect.com


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## TheaterEd (Sep 15, 2020)

gafftaper said:


> That's impressive. They will sell a ton at that price point.


Writing up a sales pitch asap....

The entire district has gone LED except for the theater. Time to see if I can get in on that.


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## rsmentele (Sep 15, 2020)

Not surprisingly, it's much dimmer than I think most venues might hope for. 4880 lumens at full. Obviously, when in saturated colors it will be ok vs 575, but most folks are using 750's these days it seems. But, the design required for this device doesn't leave much room for a bright array so i'm sure it's about as much as they could do at this point. It will certainly allow more facilities to get into the technology at least due to price point and existing inventory of S4 bodies and lenses.


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## gafftaper (Sep 15, 2020)

rsmentele said:


> Not surprisingly, it's much dimmer than I think most venues might hope for. 4880 lumens at full. Obviously, when in saturated colors it will be ok vs 575, but most folks are using 750's these days it seems. But, the design required for this device doesn't leave much room for a bright array so i'm sure it's about as much as they could do at this point. It will certainly allow more facilities to get into the technology at least due to price point and existing inventory of S4 bodies and lenses.
> View attachment 20731


Yeah, there's the catch. Like you said, not surprising and it's actually amazing that they have been able to cram that many lumens into such a small space. But as you said, my wash is all 750's, so outright upgrading everything in my wash isn't an option. Going back to ETC's "Layers of Light" theory, adding them into your existing wash of 750's would be a big win. So if you have the fixtures to do that it's a great option. I currently have a pair of 750's for front light in each area of the stage (one R02, one R60). Swapping over to an R02 and an S4WRD Color in each area might be a pretty sweet trick. We'll have to do some real world experimenting on that.

I love the idea of retrofitting some spare S4 PARs I have on a shelf. I also have 10 S4's in my box booms with Seachangers and breakup gobos that I use for a colored texture wash. They are currently lamped as 750's but the Seachangers cut a lot of lumens. Switching to S4WRD Color would probably give me at least the same amount of light and add some additional depth to the color too. So, yeah... not the dream 750 replacement, but give them a couple of years and that may happen. In the mean time, it's still incredibly useful in a lot of applications.


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## STEVETERRY (Sep 15, 2020)

theatricalmatt said:


> I'd love to see some figures on its color rendering, and what sort of output it has, especially in comparison to a CS Spot / CS Spot jr. It's starting to be a crowded field.
> 
> I hope it avoids all the overtemp issues the S4Wrds had.



Here is a link to the S4WRD Color data sheet:


https://www.etcconnect.com/WorkArea/DownloadAsset.aspx?id=10737502881



ST


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## STEVETERRY (Sep 15, 2020)

dvsDave said:


> Question for @STEVETERRY , can the Source 4wrd Color still project gobos with that homogenizer film in front of the reflector? In the video, @Jim Uphoff had his hand in front of the beam and the shadow looked pretty good, but gobos weren't mentioned in the video, one way or another.



Yes, it can project gobos.

ST


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## STEVETERRY (Sep 15, 2020)

gafftaper said:


> Yeah, there's the catch. Like you said, not surprising and it's actually amazing that they have been able to cram that many lumens into such a small space. But as you said, my wash is all 750's, so outright upgrading everything in my wash isn't an option. Going back to ETC's "Layers of Light" theory, adding them into your existing wash of 750's would be a big win. So if you have the fixtures to do that it's a great option. I currently have a pair of 750's for front light in each area of the stage (one R02, one R60). Swapping over to an R02 and an S4WRD Color in each area might be a pretty sweet trick. We'll have to do some real world experimenting on that.
> 
> I love the idea of retrofitting some spare S4 PARs I have on a shelf. I also have 10 S4's in my box booms with Seachangers and breakup gobos that I use for a colored texture wash. They are currently lamped as 750's but the Seachangers cut a lot of lumens. Switching to S4WRD Color would probably give me at least the same amount of light and add some additional depth to the color too. So, yeah... not the dream 750 replacement, but give them a couple of years and that may happen. In the mean time, it's still incredibly useful in a lot of applications.



Be aware that the S4WRD and S4WRD Color do not retrofit onto existing S4 PAR bodies as they do with S4 ellipsoidals. A new PAR body is required. which is still very economical in light of the fixture's performance.

ST


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## Colin (Sep 15, 2020)

Not line dimmable like the white, but warranty good when used on an ETC dimmer in switched mode, or not with this one?


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## gafftaper (Sep 16, 2020)

STEVETERRY said:


> Be aware that the S4WRD and S4WRD Color do not retrofit onto existing S4 PAR bodies as they do with S4 ellipsoidals. A new PAR body is required. which is still very economical in light of the fixture's performance.
> 
> ST


Bummer, but still an exciting product. Congratulations on this Steve. I'm sure your team has put in a lot of work for a VERY long time to figure out how to do the impossible on this one.


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## Amiers (Sep 16, 2020)

So from pictures I have seen. The color array looks to be smaller than the white array from the original. Can you speak on why the white post didn’t go away completely or shrunk considerably in order to fit in double the array or possibly add a ring of lime to get you that 5 “secret” weapon. Also how is the array lined up out of curiosity. Is it RBGA down the line or a single color per side hard to tell from the video. I can assume doubling the array would draw more heat I feel that the heatsink would be capable of still dissipating the extra.


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## MNicolai (Sep 16, 2020)

gafftaper said:


> not the dream 750 replacement



I have a possibly unpopular opinion but at some point in the next ~5 years I think it has to be OK to forfeit the old reflector assemblies and bodies. ETC, representing a global market with millions of units out there obviously needs to diversify their offerings and take care of existing customers without tossing a bunch of metalwork and optics into the scrap bin, but I was thinking the other day that the Colorsource Spot Jr might be one of the few recent fixtures that ETC has made that didn't come with a laundry list of legacy dependencies, such as _must be compatible with x from 5 years ago, y from 15 years ago, and z from 30 years ago and the engine needs a form factor so you can tilt the fixture past 50/50 to get connectors around the yoke without having to unplug anything._

Seems like by not shouldering the burden of legacy fixture designs from years past, the CS Spot Jr, aside from not being able to zoom down to 19° is a pretty bangin' fixture for the cost while also being nice and lightweight.

Even Series 2 feels a lot like the evolution of a DSLR camera system to me -- heavy, with a lot of slightly different configurations (not to mention console personalities), and in 2020 made largely irrelevant by smartphones. Not saying there isn't a market for that because there is, but it might be refreshing to let go of legacy form factors and in the case of 4WRD, let go of life support accessories that are a still a hefty investment just to eek a few more years of juice out of before that paradigm of fixture designs is swallowed up entirely by more evolution in the marketplace.

And yes, I'm one of _those people_ who - while reluctant at first - hasn't minded losing my headphone jack and I don't miss it in the least. Please go easy on me with the forthcoming voodoo dolls in my likeness.


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## JChenault (Sep 16, 2020)

does anyone know if the “blue” emitter is blue or indigo? Or if there is a blue option as in ColorSource fixtures?


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## STEVETERRY (Sep 16, 2020)

MNicolai said:


> I have a possibly unpopular opinion but at some point in the next ~5 years I think it has to be OK to forfeit the old reflector assemblies and bodies. ETC, representing a global market with millions of units out there obviously needs to diversify their offerings and take care of existing customers without tossing a bunch of metalwork and optics into the scrap bin, but I was thinking the other day that the Colorsource Spot Jr might be one of the few recent fixtures that ETC has made that didn't come with a laundry list of legacy dependencies, such as _must be compatible with x from 5 years ago, y from 15 years ago, and z from 30 years ago and the engine needs a form factor so you can tilt the fixture past 50/50 to get connectors around the yoke without having to unplug anything._
> 
> Seems like by not shouldering the burden of legacy fixture designs from years past, the CS Spot Jr, aside from not being able to zoom down to 19° is a pretty bangin' fixture for the cost while also being nice and lightweight.
> 
> ...


 
Good feedback, Mike. It lines up with our thinking on the CS Spot Jr.

ST


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## STEVETERRY (Sep 16, 2020)

Amiers said:


> So from pictures I have seen. The color array looks to be smaller than the white array from the original. Can you speak on why the white post didn’t go away completely or shrunk considerably in order to fit in double the array or possibly add a ring of lime to get you that 5 “secret” weapon. Also how is the array lined up out of curiosity. Is it RBGA down the line or a single color per side hard to tell from the video. I can assume doubling the array would draw more heat I feel that the heatsink would be capable of still dissipating the extra.



The dimensions of the array are tightly constrained by the prescription of the reflector, which was designed precisely for the HPL filament. Making the array even 1mm bigger would have a large negative effect on lumen output. Therefore, "doubling the array" is not possible purely from an optical point of view. Each of the four sides of the array contains four rows of R, G, B, and A. Symmetry is required for excellent color mixing. As far as power dissipation, the heatsink (or "fin stack") is not the limiting factor--it's the ability of the heatpipe to move the heat to the fin stack under a very wide range of conditions and physical orientations.

I can tell you that the engineering in this device is some of the most advanced work ever done at ETC across a wide range of disciplines--led by the legendary Dave Cunningham. Four years ago, it seemed unlikely that this color version of S4WRD could ever happen. But if I've learned one thing in my time at ETC, it's never to bet against Cunningham in doing the impossible. 

ST


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## rsmentele (Sep 16, 2020)

I do not at all intend to dismiss all of the time, effort and engineering that went into this product. I think it is actually a wonderful idea and it certainly is a good product for a lot of customers that dont quite have the money for full LED fixtures, but would like the flexibility that the color mixing and energy savings provides.
I agree with MNicolai on the nature of the product itself. It serves a dying customer/product space. I think the biggest flaw with the product is its reliance on the inefficient optical system of a Source Four compared to current options.
The optics were great for what they were designed for and the technology available at the time, but by todays standards, they are quite inefficient. Even ETC suggests using the EDLT lens tubes to increase output of their LED fixtures. Even with that change, the optics could still be improved.
Again, I don't want to degrade any work done by a very large team of people, all of them much more intelligent than myself. Think of it as trying to put a hybrid engine in an 1990 Cadallac Deville. It'll work, but not as well as a new Prius.


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## ScottT (Sep 16, 2020)

STEVETERRY said:


> never to bet against Cunningham in doing the impossible



Words to live by.


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## STEVETERRY (Sep 16, 2020)

rsmentele said:


> Not surprisingly, it's much dimmer than I think most venues might hope for. 4880 lumens at full. Obviously, when in saturated colors it will be ok vs 575, but most folks are using 750's these days it seems. But, the design required for this device doesn't leave much room for a bright array so i'm sure it's about as much as they could do at this point. It will certainly allow more facilities to get into the technology at least due to price point and existing inventory of S4 bodies and lenses.
> View attachment 20731



"Most folks are using 750's." This is a very common misconception about which HPL lamps are the most popular. Ranked from most volume in the market to least volume, they are:

1. 575X long life 2000 hr (by a very wide margin--many multiples of the other types)
2. 575 300 hr
3. 750 300 hr

This goes to "What is bright enough?" For comparison, a 26 degree S4 with each of those lamp types:

575X 7,666 field lumens
575 11,226 field lumens
750 13,390 field lumens

So, starting with the 575X used by the vast majority of S4 owners and then looking at where that gets knocked down to by gel in saturated colors, the S4WRD photometrics clearly place it in a brightness range that is going to be very usable for a great many users.

Just sayin'.

ST


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## techieman33 (Sep 16, 2020)

rsmentele said:


> I do not at all intend to dismiss all of the time, effort and engineering that went into this product. I think it is actually a wonderful idea and it certainly is a good product for a lot of customers that dont quite have the money for full LED fixtures, but would like the flexibility that the color mixing and energy savings provides.
> I agree with MNicolai on the nature of the product itself. It serves a dying customer/product space. I think the biggest flaw with the product is its reliance on the inefficient optical system of a Source Four compared to current options.
> The optics were great for what they were designed for and the technology available at the time, but by todays standards, they are quite inefficient. Even ETC suggests using the EDLT lens tubes to increase output of their LED fixtures. Even with that change, the optics could still be improved.
> Again, I don't want to degrade any work done by a very large team of people, all of them much more intelligent than myself. Think of it as tying to put a hybrid engine in an 1990 Cadallac Deville. It'll work, but not as well as a new Prius.



I look at it more like a PC than a car. It’s a modular system. Sometimes you need a whole new one, and others you can get away with adding or replacing one or even a few parts of it. It’s up to each of us and our varying uses cases to balance out what we want vs what we can afford. It‘s not the answer for everyone, but it will be for some. Nothing wrong with having another option to choose from, especially when it hits an underserved price point.


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## techieman33 (Sep 16, 2020)

STEVETERRY said:


> "Most folks are using 750's." This is a very common misconception about which HPL lamps are the most popular. Ranked from most volume in the market to least volume, they are:
> 
> 1. 575X long life 2000 hr (by a very wide margin--many multiples of the other types)
> 2. 575 300 hr
> ...



I think that view of things makes more sense with the white only unit. I would think the spread looks a lot different when you remove all the ones being used in architectural settings that will never see a piece of gel, and maybe never even move after it’s initial focus.


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## Amiers (Sep 16, 2020)

STEVETERRY said:


> The dimensions of the array are tightly constrained by the prescription of the reflector, which was designed precisely for the HPL filament. Making the array even 1mm bigger would have a large negative effect on lumen output. Therefore, "doubling the array" is not possible purely from an optical point of view. Each of the four sides of the array contains four rows of R, G, B, and A. Symmetry is required for excellent color mixing. As far as power dissipation, the heatsink (or "fin stack") is not the limiting factor--it's the ability of the heatpipe to move the heat to the fin stack under a very wide range of conditions and physical orientations.
> 
> I can tell you that the engineering in this device is some of the most advanced work ever done at ETC across a wide range of disciplines--led by the legendary Dave Cunningham. Four years ago, it seemed unlikely that this color version of S4WRD could ever happen. But if I've learned one thing in my time at ETC, it's never to bet against Cunningham in doing the impossible.
> 
> ST



well I think you answered the Color V2 design improvements. A reflector that can still fit into the original housing that is big enough to allow 2 sets of arrays for more output.

I also think a round post with vertical lines of color would net more LEDs instead of a square. But I’m sure that’s in RnD still trying to figure out the logistics of wrapping hard material and the emitters not popping a corner from heat. Speculation.


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## MNicolai (Sep 16, 2020)

techieman33 said:


> I think that view of things makes more sense with the white only unit. I would think the spread looks a lot different when you remove all the ones being used in architectural settings that will never see a piece of gel, and maybe never even move after it’s initial focus.



There's also themed attractions, museums (natural history more than art museums in this case), clubs, cruise ships, churches, cafetoriums, etc. Lot of different applications/markets to consider where fixtures may not run at 100% and may almost never run at white. If you're retrofitting 100 fixtures you can also always do 40 in 4WRD II and 60 in Color, or leave your 750's as-is but do Color's in your high side/effects/boom lighting.

The other layer of complexity here is that once you get away from the white spectrum and get into medium saturated colors, human perception of brightness is not linear so mid/deep colors may still pop even if white doesn't seem as punchy.

I'd still say it's of questionable value if you have 100 fixtures to spend $60k upgrading so you can defer an eventual upgrade of $100-150k a few years later and I wouldn't think of this fixture as a good solution for those venues looking for a temporary bridge, but in an appropriate application these can serve as a permanent solution without an intention to be a bridge to another later upgrade. Unfortunately I think the capital "T" Theatre community is probably not served as well by this option as the other applications are because they often run at 100% and if they can get by on their current fixtures a little longer, the prices for modern LED solutions like a Colorsource Spot Jr v2 will bridge the gap between price and punch. Right now I'm not sure if the extra 500 or so lumens at 3200k is worth jumping 4WRD Color to CS Spot Jr, but wait for the next generation and it's probably worth getting a brand new fixture rather than propping up existing ones. If you have 10 fixtures in a cafetorium or 3000 fixtures in themed attractions though, by all means Color is a good way to kill off those HPL lamps...if they haven't done that already.


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## theatricalmatt (Sep 16, 2020)

Funny -- I'd lean the other way. I know a few dozen small theaters or school auditoriums that each might have just a few dozen Source Fours. Switching to 4Wrds (CWrds?) means less maintenance cost in lamp replacement, less energy use in dimmers, and better experience for the end user, since the same plot now gives them color choices built in. The investment to switch to Lustrs would be huge; but a cupcake or T-shirt fundraiser each year would yield enough to switch over, say, four at a time. If they were dealing with a hundred fixtures, it'd be ridiculous to upgrade that way, but their small inventories means they could actually upgrade their entire stock in four or five years if they keep at it.

It also means they won't end up with a room full of unused fixtures or shelves of unused bodies ... just a milk crate full of unused lamp caps. And some stage pin cable. And their IT guys will wonder where all the CAT-5 cable went to. ... I digress.

But, really, for a community theater with a modest inventory and modest budget, but Broadway dreams, it looks like a good deal.


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## gafftaper (Sep 17, 2020)

theatricalmatt said:


> Funny -- I'd lean the other way. I know a few dozen small theaters or school auditoriums that each might have just a few dozen Source Fours. Switching to 4Wrds (CWrds?) means less maintenance cost in lamp replacement, less energy use in dimmers, and better experience for the end user, since the same plot now gives them color choices built in. The investment to switch to Lustrs would be huge; but a cupcake or T-shirt fundraiser each year would yield enough to switch over, say, four at a time. If they were dealing with a hundred fixtures, it'd be ridiculous to upgrade that way, but their small inventories means they could actually upgrade their entire stock in four or five years if they keep at it.
> 
> It also means they won't end up with a room full of unused fixtures or shelves of unused bodies ... just a milk crate full of unused lamp caps. And some stage pin cable. And their IT guys will wonder where all the CAT-5 cable went to. ... I digress.
> 
> But, really, for a community theater with a modest inventory and modest budget, but Broadway dreams, it looks like a good deal.


Yeah I was just talking about these with a friend who has a small budget. We had the same conversation about doing this one bake sale at a time. I pointed out that the beauty of that is this is an ETC product and you know it'll be available for at least three or four years... Longer if it's highly successful... and it'll be of the same consistent quality over time. So making a three year fundraising plan to buy a few each year is a great strategy.


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## Lextech (Sep 17, 2020)

STEVETERRY said:


> "Most folks are using 750's." This is a very common misconception about which HPL lamps are the most popular. Ranked from most volume in the market to least volume, they are:
> 
> 1. 575X long life 2000 hr (by a very wide margin--many multiples of the other types)
> 2. 575 300 hr
> 3. 750 300 hr




techieman33 said:


> I think that view of things makes more sense with the white only unit. I would think the spread looks a lot different when you remove all the ones being used in architectural settings that will never see a piece of gel, and maybe never even move after it’s initial focus.



I have been using S4 lights in my university theaters, IATSE road houses, convention centers and high schools. The only time I have seen a 750 is when I arrived here and they were in specials. That quickly changed, as did the idea that if someone painted 19 on a body it had to have a 19º barrel. Everywhere I have worked has used 575w long life lamps. Saves so much in time and money that people can't justify 750's. And if a rider comes in that has S4s must be 750w, well I have a pen to fix that.


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## tdrga (Sep 17, 2020)

Lextech said:


> Everywhere I have worked has used 575w long life lamps. Saves so much in time and money that people can't justify 750's.


My experience has been the opposite - 750 is the standard in the theatres I work in. In my former job (thanks Covid!) there was a ill-planned switch from the 750 regular life to the 750 long life lamps for a couple of years, during which we found a great loss in perceived brightness and little savings in lamp costs, as the 750X lamps seemed to be more fragile and blew at the same rate as the regular 750 lamps.

As far as cost difference between the 575X and 750 - you pay ~$3 more (about 20%) per lamp for about twice the brightness, sounds like a good deal to me.

For the convention/events market, 575 seems to be more prevalent due to the companies standardizing to the lowest common denominator and dealing with power limitations in the party venues.

-Todd


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## Lextech (Sep 17, 2020)

If you need the brightnes, then it makes sense to use 750s. For most of the shows I am been involved in that are theater and dance, I'll take rock and roll shows out, they like bright, I hardly ever see lights on full. In my concert hall the front lights normally run at 40%. I would rather have 2000 hours on a lamp then 300, if I have enough output. As the person responsible for the budget the fact that the lights last six times as long trumps brightness. This is why I love the idea of LED, 50,000 hours, color changing so no gel, no replacement lamps and energy savings from both heat, draw and the need for less fixtures. Going back to the original topic, I look forward to a demo of the S4WRD color. I have well over 160 S4s between three spaces so we will see.


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## RickR (Sep 17, 2020)

On the cost front: the major cost of relamping is labor. 
How long does it take you to; 

get to the fixture, 
diagnose the fixture, 
retrieve the new lamp, 
replace and test the repair. 
If $3 is a significant share of that you are essentially a volunteer or have an exceptionally easy space. 
@Lextech almost says, you can buy and run a 2nd fixture for about the same cost. I haven't done the studies to prove it (with S4), but I've done enough power studies to recognize it's likely.


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## macsound (Sep 17, 2020)

RickR said:


> On the cost front: the major cost of relamping is labor.
> How long does it take you to;
> 
> get to the fixture,
> ...


But most venues, by nature of how they operate, have downtime built in. Maybe touring houses or union only places don't have staff that work in the building 40 hours a week, but most churches, schools and non-touring theatres have some sort of staff who's always there. 
I think this is also why the Source 4WRD is such a great replacement for these type of venues. 
If the manager has a budget for lamps, there's nothing stopping them from converting a few fixtures at a time using that same budget.


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## MNicolai (Sep 17, 2020)

macsound said:


> But most venues, by nature of how they operate, have downtime built in. Maybe touring houses or union only places don't have staff that work in the building 40 hours a week, but most churches, schools and non-touring theatres have some sort of staff



The X factor here in terms of market share of 575X versus 750 is that _most venues_ are schools. The number of professional theaters in the world is dwarfed to the tune of several orders of magnitude by the number of K12 theaters and cafetoriums who do not have labor budgets or staff to relamp those fixtures. Even a Universal Studios or Disney with almost unlimited resources is going to prioritize their inventory based on streamlining or reducing labor.

Most of the schools I've encountered ran 575X. Lamp life aside, there were considerations for matching across a combination of Jr's and Sr's and rooms that had limited power also preferred having more fixtures at lower intensity versus being forced to max out at a lower number of fixtures at 750.


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## tdrga (Sep 17, 2020)

MNicolai said:


> The X factor here in terms of market share of 575X versus 750 is that _most venues_ are schools. The number of professional theaters in the world is dwarfed to the tune of several orders of magnitude by the number of K12 theaters and cafetoriums who do not have labor budgets or staff to relamp those fixtures. Even a Universal Studios or Disney with almost unlimited resources is going to prioritize their inventory based on streamlining or reducing labor.


I am sure that the folks at ETC know their market and are offering this product where it has the most potential- as a replacement/enhancement for venues that are running the 575w incandescent fixtures. For the professional venues (like my former venue) where an incandescent 575 would not cut it, the S4WRD Color isn't the best option for a retrofit. It's still looks to be a great product and will probably sell like hotcakes.
-Todd


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## STEVETERRY (Sep 17, 2020)

tdrga said:


> I am sure that the folks at ETC know their market and are offering this product where it has the most potential- as a replacement/enhancement for venues that are running the 575w incandescent fixtures. For the professional venues (like my former venue) where an incandescent 575 would not cut it, the S4WRD Color isn't the best option for a retrofit. It's still looks to be a great product and will probably sell like hotcakes.
> -Todd



My friends in the UK have a great saying that applies here:

"Horses for courses"

ST


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## DELO72 (Sep 21, 2020)

STEVETERRY said:


> "Most folks are using 750's." This is a very common misconception about which HPL lamps are the most popular. Ranked from most volume in the market to least volume, they are:
> 
> 1. 575X long life 2000 hr (by a very wide margin--many multiples of the other types)
> 2. 575 300 hr
> ...



Wow... for the first time I think I'm going to disagree with Steve. He is correct that the 575W version ARE by far the most popular (vs. the 375 & 750W), but the Long life is not even CLOSE to being "many multiples" of the other types. In fact it barely beats the standard 300 hr. version, and from year to year they sometimes switch as to which is the more popular lamp that year. It's more a factor of ~1.2 x when they pass one another.

Recently the long life version /X has been more popular, but I can't for the life of me understand why it would be. You can't over-drive a lamp and make them brighter (only Spinal Tap can turn it to 11). You can however underdrive a lamp and make it dimmer and last longer (in essence turning it into a "long life" version). So I always tell people to buy the lamp that gives you the greatest flexibility- which means buy the highest Lumen/CCT version of each wattage, and then if you want longer life out of them, simply dim them or run them at 90-95%. BUT- unlike with the long life versions, you now will also have a high output, bright white version as well. Something you would not have had if you only got the /X version of the lamp. Now- if you are talking about an architectural installation when it will be on at full all of the time, then obviously you want the one that will serve the single purpose that is needed. But all theatres should be buying the High Output version and getting a lamp that can serve multiple purposes. (IMHO).

Best regards,

Mark


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## STEVETERRY (Sep 21, 2020)

DELO72 said:


> Wow... for the first time I think I'm going to disagree with Steve. He is correct that the 575W version ARE by far the most popular (vs. the 375 & 750W), but the Long life is not even CLOSE to being "many multiples" of the other types. In fact it barely beats the standard 300 hr. version, and from year to year they sometimes switch as to which is the more popular lamp that year. It's more a factor of ~1.2 x when they pass one another.
> 
> Recently the long life version /X has been more popular, but I can't for the life of me understand why it would be. You can't over-drive a lamp and make them brighter (only Spinal Tap can turn it to 11). You can however underdrive a lamp and make it dimmer and last longer (in essence turning it into a "long life" version). So I always tell people to buy the lamp that gives you the greatest flexibility- which means buy the highest Lumen/CCT version of each wattage, and then if you want longer life out of them, simply dim them or run them at 90-95%. BUT- unlike with the long life versions, you now will also have a high output, bright white version as well. Something you would not have had if you only got the /X version of the lamp. Now- if you are talking about an architectural installation when it will be on at full all of the time, then obviously you want the one that will serve the single purpose that is needed. But all theatres should be buying the High Output version and getting a lamp that can serve multiple purposes. (IMHO).
> 
> ...



Mark, spoken like a true razor-blade manufacturer! 

My previous statement is supported by data from all licensed HPL manufacturers, but it is now a few years old. However, I was comparing 575X to all types, not just 575 300hr vs. 575 2000hr. I agree that I was not clear on that.

Of course, I defer to Mark on the Osram data.

But, when presented with the possibility of a brighter setting, I'll bet that there are very few users that would say "No, hold it to 95%, we need to extend lamp life."

The fact remains that the 575X provides a "unit of light" that is useful to a great many users.

ST


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## DELO72 (Sep 21, 2020)

I absolutely agree with your statement, and was in no way trying to discredit the validity of the 4WRD Color unit as an excellent option in the market. 

I was just trying to correct the data on volumes by type as that data you have is from prior to July of 2011, and not from the past 9 years.  The output of 575W/X is definitely good enough for most applications based on acceptance in the market! Stay safe everyone, and VOTE!


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## StradivariusBone (Sep 21, 2020)

Will this fit on the older S4's? I've had trouble putting newer burner assemblies on the OG 575w fixtures we've got circa 1995.


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## microstar (Sep 21, 2020)

Just what everyone needs..... RJ45 to 5-pin XLR adapter cables. And here I thought RJ45's were only recommended for non-portable equipment.


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## RonHebbard (Sep 21, 2020)

microstar said:


> Just what everyone needs..... RJ45 to 5-pin XLR adapter cables. And here I thought RJ45's were only recommended for non-portable equipment.


XLR 5's are the standard; whatever happened to having standards? 
Toodleoo! 
Ron Hebbard


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## sk8rsdad (Sep 21, 2020)

```
standard (n):

a: a banner carried before an advancing army
b: a rallying point in battle
```

Standards vary, or in this case, evolve.

I don't think the target market for a S4 LED retrofit is the entertainment industry. They are a better fit for architectural, HOW, and schools that don't have big well-equipped theatres.

FWIW, I'd buy ColorSource Jrs before I'd retrofit existing S4s and, since most of my S4 inventory is used for front lighting, it's still going to be a while before I give up on incandescent.


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## StradivariusBone (Sep 21, 2020)

microstar said:


> Just what everyone needs..... RJ45 to 5-pin XLR adapter cables. And here I thought RJ45's were only recommended for non-portable equipment.



I tend to agree, but I think at least if you're replacing a whole bank of these then it's easy enough to terminate RJ45's to custom lengths. At least if you're using Cat 5/6


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## MNicolai (Sep 21, 2020)

StradivariusBone said:


> I tend to agree, but I think at least if you're replacing a whole bank of these then it's easy enough to terminate RJ45's to custom lengths. At least if you're using Cat 5/6



There's no value in cooking your own CATx cables unless you're trying to use tactical cable. Patch cords of any increment in any color you want are a dime a dozen and come pre-certified.

@sk8rsdad I'm still waiting for manufacturers to rip the band-aid off and lay the foundation for a successor to DMX. However painful the transition may be, it's time to reimagine the control architecture for modern lighting systems. Probably looking at a 10 year transition period where DMX never fully dies, if the evolution timelines of Dante/AES67/AVB are any indication of what that evolution process may look like. I won't lay any chips down as to whether that should or should be an ethernet-based solution because you've got to get buy-in from about 200 different markets and several thousand vendors but the longer we postpone, the more painful and past due that target goal will be.

Please submit any comments or voodoo dolls via regular post to my Nashville office and misspell my name just enough that they can't tell who to direct those messages to.


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## StradivariusBone (Sep 21, 2020)

MNicolai said:


> There's no value in cooking your own CATx cables unless you're trying to use tactical cable. Patch cords of any increment in any color you want are a dime a dozen and come pre-certified.



Perhaps, but I've got a big spool of it and no shortage of ends. If I'm looking to do a whole bridge-worth of these things, it's just as easy for me personally to terminate and make custom-length cables. Versus terminating XLRs, RJ45's is much quicker. I'd rather do that than mess around with adapters too. 

I can see where the road types wouldn't want to mess around with that, but for an install with a rep plot that's not going to change often why not? However, I'm wondering if the failure rate on twisted pair solid copper is going to be higher than a stranded copper cable using XLRs when it's being patched in again and again. 

All that said, the RJ45 seems to be an odd choice here. The fixture is DMX only and does not work with ArtNet from what I can see, unless I missed something that says a future upgrade is possible? We are definitely in the transition phase of control protocols, a pair of moving lights I bought a year or two back had about 5 ways to input commands to it.


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## MNicolai (Sep 21, 2020)

RJ45 is more about having a ubiquitous, readily available solution rather than finding a specialty connector that creates a new layer of complexity and problems. This is an area where the more "clever" you are about finding the perfect connector, the more problems you actually create for implementation and deployment. _Another_ set of cables, connectors, and adapters is the kind of thing the larger production and rental outfits tend to revolt against. RJ45 to DMX is the lesser of evils than say a TA5F to DMX.


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## theatricalmatt (Sep 21, 2020)

If I recall the conversations from the time the Source 4Wrd first debuted, the RJ-45 connector was chosen primarily because of size considerations -- there just isn't a lot of room in the cap to squeeze in and thru connectors.

But yes, I wish it were a 5-pin DMX connector, too.


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## STEVETERRY (Sep 21, 2020)

DELO72 said:


> I absolutely agree with your statement, and was in no way trying to discredit the validity of the 4WRD Color unit as an excellent option in the market.
> 
> I was just trying to correct the data on volumes by type as that data you have is from prior to July of 2011, and not from the past 9 years.  The output of 575W/X is definitely good enough for most applications based on acceptance in the market! Stay safe everyone, and VOTE!




microstar said:


> Just what everyone needs..... RJ45 to 5-pin XLR adapter cables. And here I thought RJ45's were only recommended for non-portable equipment.


Two words:

1. Size
2. Cost

S4WRD is a candidate for facilities where there may not be one XLR5. Perhaps the run will simply go from a wireless DMX512 receiver to all the fixtures in a location. And that receiver might even have an RJ45 output.

BTW, you are preaching to the converted on the issue of DMX512 connector standards. But this product has a target market where RJ45 makes very good economic and size sense, IMHO.

"Horses for Courses".

ST


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## RonHebbard (Sep 21, 2020)

STEVETERRY said:


> Two words:
> 
> 1. Size
> 2. Cost
> ...


Standards are _GREAT!_ That's why we have so many of them. 
Toodleoo! 
Ron Hebbard


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## StradivariusBone (Sep 21, 2020)

STEVETERRY said:


> S4WRD is a candidate for facilities where there may not be one XLR5. Perhaps the run will simply go from a wireless DMX512 receiver to all the fixtures in a location. And that receiver might even have an RJ45 output



Such a facility checking in. It wouldn't be hard for us to run the cabling necessary for these but artnet support would've been nice since we are slowly adding nodes as we go along. But also added cost so I get it's a trade-off.

That said, it wouldn't be hard to stack a node on one end of the electric and just go from there. We run a three color front wash and these could be economical to replace one of the three colors and then blend the LED with the cool and warm incandescents? 

I asked up above, but will these work on all S4s, even the older ones?


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## STEVETERRY (Sep 21, 2020)

StradivariusBone said:


> Such a facility checking in. It wouldn't be hard for us to run the cabling necessary for these but artnet support would've been nice since we are slowly adding nodes as we go along. But also added cost so I get it's a trade-off.
> 
> That said, it wouldn't be hard to stack a node on one end of the electric and just go from there. We run a three color front wash and these could be economical to replace one of the three colors and then blend the LED with the cool and warm incandescents?
> 
> I asked up above, but will these work on all S4s, even the older ones?



Yes, it will fit all variants of S4.

And this class of product does not support the cost of a network connection such as Artnet.

ST


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## STEVETERRY (Sep 21, 2020)

microstar said:


> Just what everyone needs..... RJ45 to 5-pin XLR adapter cables. And here I thought RJ45's were only recommended for non-portable equipment.


Here is a useful device:








TecNec DMX-5XM-CAT5 5-pin XLR Male to RJ45 Adapter

Buy TecNec DMX-5XM-CAT5 5-pin XLR Male to RJ45 Adapter featuring Allows Use of Ethernet Cable for DMX. Review TecNec null



www.bhphotovideo.com





ST


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## theatricalmatt (Sep 21, 2020)

The real drawback is mixing 4Wrds and more, uh, conventional intelligent fixtures on the same lighting position, since converting to and from and to and from DMX and RJ-45 gets a little cumbersome, as I discovered in one venue that shall remain nameless. Easier to have one run of just RJ-45, and a second, parallel run of 5-pin, even if it means bringing in a DMX splitter. Yay RJ-45 for being bi-directional (?)


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## TimMc (Sep 21, 2020)

STEVETERRY said:


> "Horses for Courses".
> 
> ST



Hearses for corpses. DMX is dead, long live DMX! /anticipating Daytime Emmy nomination.

RJ45 makes sense when the mating cycles will be limited. RJ45 isn't the longest-life connector in the market, but it ticks all the other needed points - size, tooling, standards.


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## tjrobb (Sep 22, 2020)

My theatre still had AMX ports until 2008. So evolution can be really slow...


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## techieman33 (Sep 23, 2020)

tjrobb said:


> My theatre still had AMX ports until 2008. So evolution can be really slow...



We still have CD80s running on two universes (is that even the right term?) of AMX 192. There’s a 12 channel Mantrix 2S for control from the stage managers panel backstage. And at FOH there’s a Flee.nor converter to take the DMX from a DMX King eDMX1. And that gets sACN from a Pearl Expert and from my phone which has a couple apps that let me use it as a focus remote without needing to boot up the console.


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## TuckerD (Sep 26, 2020)

MNicolai said:


> @sk8rsdad I'm still waiting for manufacturers to rip the band-aid off and lay the foundation for a successor to DMX.



There are a lot of people in the CPWG who are currently working on just such ideas. Membership is open to all who are affected by the work of the CPWG. (That's everyone who is reading this forum  )


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## NJLX (Sep 30, 2020)

Did a shootout last week with the S4wrd Color, Colorsource spot Jr(Deep Blue), colorsource spot(Not Deep Blue), and solaframe 750. The purpose of this setup was as a console demo, so we didn't go too far into the various fixtures, but some thoughts:


Using 19 degree lenses(and the Jr. zoomed to be roughly the same size circle on the wall), here's what we found:

Brightness on the S4wrd is comparable to the CS Spot Jr DB, when mixed to approximately 4500k(Note that I did not have a profile in the console for S4wrdC, but used generic RGBA), and both of these are roughly half the brighness of the full-size CS Spot. The Solaframe 750, when zoomed to the same size with a sharp edge, appeared roughly twice as bright as the CS Spot.

The field on the S4wrdC was not nearly as even as any of the other options - there was some mottling of color, even after testing with a S4 LED Homogenizer(borrowed from our stock of Lustrs) in the template slot, and R119 in the color frame.

Color rendering was different than the CS Spot units - this will probably be closer with an ETC-calibrated profile in the console. As-is, red in particular seemed slightly duller/deeper. 

Gobos went sharp(especially with an EDLT lens), but there was a small but noticable amount of LED rainbow along the edges. This was completely eliminated with the addition of the homogenizer.


Overall seems like a decent option for retrofit of existing inventories on a low budget. Given a choice, I would always pick a CS Spot JR or full size CS Spot over this unit.


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## LukeDelwiche (Sep 30, 2020)

NJLX said:


> <snip>
> The field on the S4wrdC was not nearly as even as any of the other options - there was some mottling of color, even after testing with a S4 LED Homogenizer(borrowed from our stock of Lustrs) in the template slot, and R119 in the color frame.
> </snip>


Hi Nate - wondering if the homogenizing filter was installed on the reflector? It is in the retrofit kit, but this is an easy step to miss. This video shows it at the end.

Luke


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## NJLX (Oct 2, 2020)

LukeDelwiche said:


> Hi Nate - wondering if the homogenizing filter was installed on the reflector? It is in the retrofit kit, but this is an easy step to miss. This video shows it at the end.
> 
> Luke



The Homogenizing filter was indeed installed on the reflector. 

For clarity, the unevenness of the color was very similar to the unevenness that you see in a S4 field with an HPL - changeable via bench focus, but not able to be completely eliminated. Adding the extra homogenizer improved this.


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