# Any of you using LED pars for front/general lighting small stages ?



## stonehedge99 (Mar 26, 2014)

Hi Guys,

Any of you using DMX LED Par lights to general light your stage ? If so what fixtures are you using (36x3w ? RGBW ?) and how many do you use ? Upto what size of stage are you able to cover with your setup ?

Do let me know how your setup works asap and your experiences with them as they will help me a lot in my choice.

Thanks


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## Jay Ashworth (Mar 26, 2014)

I put up a poll on this last week, got 3 or 4 detailed replies ...

Sent from my SPH-L720


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## stonehedge99 (Mar 27, 2014)

Can anyone chime in with some helpful info please ?


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## Footer (Mar 27, 2014)

stonehedge99 said:


> Can anyone chime in with some helpful info please ?



SURVEY: Theatrical LED Lighting | ControlBooth

It really comes down to what you need to do. What works for one person won't work for another. Whats your content? Do you have to deal with riders? Do you care about lighting skin tones? Do you just want color? What is your budget? 

I know you just want answers, but there is a thousand ways to skin this cat. If you want the quick and short version, ETC D40 or D60 lenese correctly. Go with the Lustr DS and the Vivid upstage.... and bring a low interest credit card with ya.


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## stonehedge99 (Mar 27, 2014)

Footer said:


> SURVEY: Theatrical LED Lighting | ControlBooth
> 
> It really comes down to what you need to do. What works for one person won't work for another. Whats your content? Do you have to deal with riders? Do you care about lighting skin tones? Do you just want color? What is your budget?
> 
> I know you just want answers, but there is a thousand ways to skin this cat. If you want the quick and short version, ETC D40 or D60 lenese correctly. Go with the Lustr DS and the Vivid upstage.... and bring a low interest credit card with ya.



I didn't give more info because i didn't want my question to be arduous and too specific. So to answer your formidable question .... The show will feature mainly things like juggling acts, or lets say a controtionist fitting themselves into a tiny glass box, a 1 man magic act, you get the drift. The stage sizes i am faced with are 25' wide x 15' deep. I want subdued, not bright front lighting. I also wanted some good color fringing on the performers clothing edges etc which is why im leaning towards the LEDs. I want the back lighting to stand out more prominent than the front lighting (i have 6 moving heads of 575w to use as back lighting).

Kind of tough to explain such an intangible. So here's a pic of something to just indicate slightly what i'm looking for though not too specific.
http://static.flickr.com/94/282887192_8449f5f383.jpg


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## TheaterEd (Mar 27, 2014)

I would be looking at RGBA fixtures that have quad-LED set ups. Without knowing your throw distances or how much dimming control you need or your budget it is hard to state with certainty. I personally just went through the process of picking out top lights for my 44'x25' foot stage with a 16' throw and ended up deciding on Blizzard Hotbox 5's. They were pretty strong over the 16' throw and have a very acceptable dimming curve. Without knowing you throw distance though I am hesitant to suggest these because I don't think they will have the power to properly light anything upstage. If your acts stay downstage near the audience, these could work for you, if not, you're looking for a much more expensive fixture, in which case I would look at the blizzard rokbox line. 

I think I'm just a fan of blizzard because they are low price, solid quality, they are a local company for me, and the reps the I met with were really nice guys.


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## Lextech (Mar 27, 2014)

Footer said:


> SURVEY: Theatrical LED Lighting | ControlBooth
> 
> It really comes down to what you need to do. What works for one person won't work for another. Whats your content? Do you have to deal with riders? Do you care about lighting skin tones? Do you just want color? What is your budget?
> 
> I know you just want answers, but there is a thousand ways to skin this cat. If you want the quick and short version, ETC D40 or D60 lenese correctly. Go with the Lustr DS and the Vivid upstage.... and bring a low interest credit card with ya.


To prove Footer's point I have to agree with the ETC D series but would never in a million years buy Lustr. I hate to say it but you need to get demos. We can give opinions but they are ours and how we design will differ. Every time we have decided to purchase an LED product we had demos of everything we have thought might do the job and put it in place and compared them. What works in my main space won't usually work in my blackbox and my concert hall is a whole nother can of worms. Most companies or their dealers are more then willing to provide demos. They understand that if they want to sell their products they need to put them in peoples hands to try. So wherever you are find some dealers and see what they can get you.


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## bishopthomas (Mar 27, 2014)

I haven't used a par can in years. I sometimes use Source 4's for specials, but these days my entire non moving light inventory is LED. And I'll be switching over to LED Source 4's this year as well. I prefer a tri- or quad-color fixture, anything that does internal color mixing and avoids the "Litebright" effect. Personally, I've been sticking with IP65 fixtures since I do quite a bit of outdoor concerts, but I'm sure that doesn't apply to you. On a 30' span of truss I'll typically put 4 4-bars of LED pars (16 fixtures, fairly evenly spaced). If there's a "corporate" element to it, such as a podium, I might use a leko for pattern control. I find I can usually get a decent white out of an LED. It may not measure exactly 3200K but up against a source 4 it can get close enough for rock and roll. 

Now, if I were doing theatre I'd probably not have many LED installed. I could see using them for color wash, as long as you get at least RGBW in order to create pastels, but certainly not for specials.


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## gafftaper (Mar 28, 2014)

Have to agree to disagree. There are just too many variables. For my situation (a very busy High School Performing Arts Center) there's no way I would go all LED. I want to expand my lighting inventory and I'm looking at LED's as side and top light. But out front it's going to be all incandescent's and Source four's with Seachangers on them. 

Even ETC themselves isn't pushing us to go only LED. They have been teaching their "layers of light" concept at all the shows over the last year or so. The basic idea is to pair LED's with incandescent fixtures side by side. 

Get demos!


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## Footer (Mar 28, 2014)

gafftaper said:


> Even ETC themselves isn't pushing us to go only LED. They have been teaching their "layers of light" concept at all the shows over the last year or so. The basic idea is to pair LED's with incandescent fixtures side by side.
> 
> Get demos!



One could argue that is because they want to sell larger dimmer racks. I have had a demo of the LED S4 tungsten unit... and to say it is over for the tungsten fixture is an understatement. If they handed me 2.5 million today my 2 spaces would be all LED tomorrow... no question. Its there.


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## avelect (Mar 28, 2014)

stonehedge99 said:


> I didn't give more info because i didn't want my question to be arduous and too specific. So to answer your formidable question .... The show will feature mainly things like juggling acts, or lets say a controtionist fitting themselves into a tiny glass box, a 1 man magic act, you get the drift. The stage sizes i am faced with are 25' wide x 15' deep. I want subdued, not bright front lighting. I also wanted some good color fringing on the performers clothing edges etc which is why im leaning towards the LEDs. I want the back lighting to stand out more prominent than the front lighting (i have 6 moving heads of 575w to use as back lighting).
> 
> Kind of tough to explain such an intangible. So here's a pic of something to just indicate slightly what i'm looking for though not too specific.
> http://static.flickr.com/94/282887192_8449f5f383.jpg



Hi - I work at the local theater and we have a similar size stage with the lighting barrels about 12' from the floor - we have updated this to exclusively LED using some very nice units that give us RGBW with a zoom function so we can wash or provide a fairly good area light with the same fitting. they are 54x3w units, 8-60deg "zoom" full dmx controlled

As long as you remember to add a bit of red and green when you are wanting "white" light we are satisfied with the color we are getting and even the photographers are happy (plain led with out the red and green causes problems for them)
The photo you show here is mostly back lit and with the use of the 575 moving heads the leds should not wash out the heads too much.

The largest stage that I have lit with these lights was 24' across and 33' deep (I used 8 lights from the front with three over the stage and then 6 led bars to light the cyc) and the whole rig ran on less than 13amps of power and was out doors!

As for the future of LED's I am looking at the new COB (Chips on Board) led systems being developed with the ability for them to have the optics like our conventional lights but with a fraction of the power consumption and heat - the future is bright  Just as an example (Spotlight - Illuminazione Professionale per lo Spettacolo e l'Architettura - not that I have been able to get a reply from them in 6 months - but the concept is there.


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## stonehedge99 (Mar 28, 2014)

avelect said:


> As long as you remember to add a bit of red and green when you are wanting "white" light we are satisfied with the color we are getting and even the photographers are happy (plain led with out the red and green causes problems for them)
> The photo you show here is mostly back lit and with the use of the 575 moving heads the leds should not wash out the heads too much.
> 
> The largest stage that I have lit with these lights was 24' across and 33' deep (I used 8 lights from the front with three over the stage and then 6 led bars to light the cyc) and the whole rig ran on less than 13amps of power and was out doors!



Hi, So for a 25' wide x 15' deep stage to get the subdued front light effect that i showed a pic of, how many lights will i need from the front alone, as front lighting ? I have no facility to even mount overhead lights.


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## Footer (Mar 28, 2014)

stonehedge99 said:


> Hi, So for a 25' wide x 15' deep stage to get the subdued front light effect that i showed a pic of, how many lights will i need from the front alone, as front lighting ? I have no facility to even mount overhead lights.



How far of a throw? Are you planning on mounting them on crank lifts? LED's tend to either be really wide or really narrow. How much control do you want/how many areas?  For a 25' wide stage, 3 fixtures could cover it. 6 fixtures could cover it. That look you posted looks like a few wide par cans pointed at the stage without color. You could achieve that look with a few 500w pars and a shoebox dimmer for less then 200 bucks.


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## TheaterEd (Mar 28, 2014)

at a 16 foot throw you could do it with 4 of the hotbox units i mentioned earlier


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## stonehedge99 (Mar 29, 2014)

I wouldnt be able to get HotBoxes etc. They are not available in my region/location. But i do have access to 54x3w led pars with an aluminum housing. So how would your suggestion translate to my situation or in other words what would you best guess be for my fixtures and stage size ? 10 of them ?


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## TheaterEd (Mar 29, 2014)

Without knowing the beam spread and throw distance it is hard to guess. I would be pretty surprised if you are not able to get a low level face wash with ten fixtures though.


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## stonehedge99 (Mar 29, 2014)

The beam spread is supposed to be 35 degrees. The throw distance would be 15 feet from the apron of the stage.


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## stonehedge99 (Mar 29, 2014)

TheaterEd said:


> Without knowing the beam spread and throw distance it is hard to guess. I would be pretty surprised if you are not able to get a low level face wash with ten fixtures though.



When you mention a low level face wash, is it something akin to the low key lighting im looking for like this example 

http://static.flickr.com/94/282887192_8449f5f383.jpg

I have about 10 x 575w moving heads and i thought ill use 6 of them to back light as shown in the pic.


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## stonehedge99 (Mar 30, 2014)

Alternatively, can i get the above look with 6-8 moving heads as back lighting and just 2 x 1000w regular incandescent par 64s from the front. Of course stage size will be 25'x15'. Ill probably have the pars one on each side and from a distance of about 15 feet away from front stage. Would that garner this look. I have 2 x 1500w haze machines via dmx and this would be indoor air-conditioned lightproof halls.


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## TheLightmaster (Mar 30, 2014)

I use Blizzard Rocklite RGBAW in a church at about 20' to offset the redshift of O/W conventionals and to provide color tint. Works okay for a DJ type fixture....


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## TheaterEd (Mar 31, 2014)

stonehedge99 said:


> Alternatively, can i get the above look with 6-8 moving heads as back lighting and just 2 x 1000w regular incandescent par 64s from the front. Of course stage size will be 25'x15'. Ill probably have the pars one on each side and from a distance of about 15 feet away from front stage. Would that garner this look. I have 2 x 1500w haze machines via dmx and this would be indoor air-conditioned lightproof halls.


It would come close, but probably leave you with a dark spot front and center (Generally a bad place for a dark spot). As long as you don't want it to be very bright, you could probably get a decent face wash like the picture from 4-6 of the LED fixtures you described. Personally, I would want eight to ten fixtures so I can cross light a bit, and then use the pars as a bright spot light center stage.


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## stonehedge99 (Mar 31, 2014)

TheaterEd said:


> It would come close, but probably leave you with a dark spot front and center (Generally a bad place for a dark spot). As long as you don't want it to be very bright, you could probably get a decent face wash like the picture from 4-6 of the LED fixtures you described. Personally, I would want eight to ten fixtures so I can cross light a bit, and then use the pars as a bright spot light center stage.



But if i bring in bright spots center stage using pars wont that again give the stage a washed out look pale look ? The dreaded look im trying to avoid.
Regarding the number of LED fixtures im planning 10 nos 54x3w RGBW units anyway so that matches your suggestion.


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## TheaterEd (Apr 1, 2014)

Gel the lights? One warm color, and one cool color(or just two warm if you're really worried about making them look pale) and point them both at the same center spot (McCandless). Don't blast them, but you want to have the ability to punch through and light the star if you have to. 

You may be trying to avoid a washed out look, but if the audience can't see the performers you are going to catch some heat. You haven't given us a whole lot of details, so I'm making inferences and speaking in general ideas. The picture you post is of younger performers, and in my experience you need to worry more about function of the light than anything else. If parents can't see their kids, they will be upset. No matter how beautiful the design is, the audience for this type of production did not come to see your lights. So I generally have some sort of face wash or spot light that I can turn up at the directors / producers / angry dance mom's request. When it comes to variety shows, I prefer to be ready for anything. The less often you have to say "No" to their requests, the more they will want to work with you.


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## stonehedge99 (Apr 2, 2014)

OK about the show now. Its a commercial show. No moms or parents etc. Ive been doing these shows for 20 years now. But i got into my own lights and sound because i couldn't keep hiring.
The show is commercially sold to familial audiences and the show consists of unusual acts like a contortionist who gets into a small glass cube. A juggler. Mostly 1 to 2 man acts one after the other. The duration of the show is 90 mins. The stage will be about 25'x15' in size. In this only the central area will be occupied or performed in. So we are trying to light maybe 20'x10' = 200sqft. With maybe 1 or 2 performers at a time. Plz see the youtube link below to get an idea of stage size and type of act im talking about just to give you a general idea.



Ofcourse id want the main performers face to be seen. And sometimes if there are small objects such as placards held on stage with spectator names etc, or a drawing board is used on stage then i would want that to be seen.

What i already have are 10 moving heads (575w), 10 par cans (1000w) with the distribution box etc. Computer based dmx control with dmx dimmer pack for the par cans.


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