# Floor Boxes



## AlexDonkle (Nov 1, 2014)

Anyone here have and/or use stage floor boxes in their space? (Either AV boxes for mics, monitors, power, or separate lighting pockets)

For venues with a lot of in-house productions, floor boxes can help avoid laying cables across the stage from wall plates and creaking trip hazards. On the otherhand, I'm sure they can be a maintenance issue as well. I ran across a couple of opposing views on them recently, so what curious what others think of them on stage floors.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Nov 1, 2014)

I try to avoid them if possible, for dancers feet and shell tower casters primarily, but often end up with some for av near downstage edge.


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## SteveB (Nov 1, 2014)

We installed 8, 4 ea. in the SL & SR wings, when we renovated in '04. Due to funding issue (lack of money for more dimmers), the circuits repeat on corner wall boxes (DL/DR/UL/UR). We did not, also for reasons of funding, install Cat 5 or DMX, which I will regret.

We were very particular as to placement as they line up dead center of each wing, which is where we land our dance lighting towers. Thus the cable bundles off the towers go right into the floor pocket, with no taping or matting required. 

In my opinion they work very well as we use them frequently for other deck gear as needed. They were worth the money, but I'd also want circuits not in the floor but somewhere on deck, for when the pockets are not accessible.


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## Footer (Nov 1, 2014)

I hate them and everything about them. Unless your like Steve and really think about placement, they are never in the right spot. Even then, after Steve retires I'm sure the next guy will think the towers are in the wrong spot and move them. 

For audio, having jacks for inputs is nice to have, however I still want to see every single channel available in one place DSL. From that point you can drop subnakes and go nuts. For lighting, I have never met a floor pocket that both works AND keeps the cable inside after closing. 

I would not trust any data connection that would be in one. We sweep/mop every day... a RJ45 would last 6 months tops. Get some mats, yellow jackets, and some gaff tape. Problem solved. 

For the record, my space does have lighting floor pockets (and footlights). Neither of them work anymore and we have those tied off at the patch panel. We have one crosstage 12x3 XLR snake. Upstage we have two 12ch hoses that run from our DSL patch to USL via our SL rail. After that, all band/stage power is on the walls. We also have boom circuits that come off of our lighting ladders. When booms get rolled out, those 3 circuits drop and go. I really don't like anything connected to the deck. It either comes from the sky or comes from the wall. In my opinion floor pockets can create a larger tripping hazard.


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## techieman33 (Nov 1, 2014)

I like my floor boxes, they don't get used a lot, but they're nice to have when I want them. Mine are placed right upstage of our legs so they're in a good spot for using on lighting booms without cables crossing a wing. Those same circuits are in a patch panel USR so I can also plug soca in there and move the circuits where I need them.


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## AudJ (Nov 1, 2014)

Our lighting floor boxes were original to the 1955 build, and retrofitted with new receptacles in 2009. There is one Edison constant, and one dimmed stagepin in each box. I have found them very useful, particularly the constant circuits, but the dimmed receptacles have been used various times for specials. Running amps and the vibes to a box had avoided running extension cords across high traffic areas on numerous occasions. 

The boxes themselves are unique though - cast iron flip top and frame inlaid in the hardwood. Heavy and sturdy. The best part is the receptacles are actually on an angle, floating in a box from one side with the rest of the box open to below. Too much cable? Shove it down into the crawl space. Debris from a broom? Also in the crawl space. Keys fall out of your pocket while you are making a connection? In the crawl space...


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## BillConnerFASTC (Nov 2, 2014)

Since there are two "ideal" boom locations noted and both different, and neither of which I'd recommend, that's clearly an issue. For booms, I prefer drop boxes from overhead, and taps for dropping data. I just like to keep stuff off the floor.


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## Scarrgo (Nov 2, 2014)

We have lighting floor boxes one L & R in the wings and three along the upstage, now for the pain(I feel) each box only has 2 circuits, not enough for booms or ground row, plus the upstage three boxes are a foot DS of the Cyc, I understand that they are for the ground row, but are it the way. We also have to watch out and not drive our shell walls on them as the are not able to take the full weight of the walls...and we had to do cut outs in our dance floor so they are usable.

Oh, next to the L&R floor pockets they put a pocket for audio, nice idea, bad implication, it is not flush with the floor and if the mic cable is not in the one 1/4" slot and somebody steps on the cover, it will cut your cable in half...and its in the middle of the wing....

In a perfect world, drop boxes from the grid or jumps, and plugging boxes UL, DL, UR,DR walls...

Sean...


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## MarshallPope (Nov 2, 2014)

For me, I tend not to like floor pockets for electrics, but a few audio pockets on the downstage edge are wonderful, especially for lectern events.
Lighting pockets simply require too many too-thick cables that end up being a tripping hazard. Drop boxes are easier to pick out of the way.


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## SteveB (Nov 2, 2014)

I forgot to mention that we also have 2 lighting FP's extreme DL and DR on our pit with 3 shared circuits, retractable cords, as well as 1 ea audio pockets DL & DR with monitor sends, these are retractable cables. Plus a DC on pit mic. line box (12 ?), plus 4 flush connectors for front fill speakers. All this stuff is heavily used and is better then running cables off-stage and having to matt/tape.


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## AlexDonkle (Nov 2, 2014)

Footer said:


> I would not trust any data connection that would be in one. We sweep/mop every day... a RJ45 would last 6 months tops. Get some mats, yellow jackets, and some gaff tape. Problem solved.



I've had the same concerns on RJ45's on floor boxes. Not nearly as robust as XLR jacks, nor as easy to re-terminate. In June this year Neutrik released the SCCD-W spring loaded D-series cover. It was designed to protect outdoor connectors from rain, but we've been looking at it to protect RJ45's in floor boxes at lectern locations for exactly that reason. 
http://www.neutrik.us/en-us/accessories/sccd-w


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## Dan0010 (Nov 2, 2014)

i started asking for these floor boxes that are really deep. they are great since they have lots of space to plug a cable in and has a rubber gasket that allows you to pass multiple cables through in a closed state. If you don't have any cables and it closed then it completely flushed as I know I found certain floors boxes that are suppose to be flush but there a bump in the framing.

But I agree placement is everything and one events or person best placement is another horrible placement.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Nov 2, 2014)

I've put floor pocket lids in pit fillers so receptacles in the pit could be accessed for a lectern event. Lately I've played with similar pass throughs in the "top" of the fixed pit rail, which get quite wide (us to ds) because of lip speakers built into it.


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## AlexDonkle (Nov 2, 2014)

Dan0010 said:


> If you don't have any cables and it closed then it completely flushed as I know I found certain floors boxes that are suppose to be flush but there a bump in the framing.



The difficulty is how the floor box gets supported. Flush floor boxes are generally designed for concrete floors, and are supported by rods on the side of the box that are cast into the slab (why these types of boxes are also called "cast in place boxes"). Floor boxes designed for raised floors (like most stages) are supported by the lid itself resting on the stage, so it cannot sit flush as the lid must overlap the stage. The alternative is to support the floor box from concrete slab below the floor, but then the floor box won't "bounce" with the sprung floor and that creates a significantly safety concern for dancers if they land on it.

Cable pass-thrus are common on most floor box lids though, don't think we've ever used a floor box without that features. Using a floor box lid in on a pit cover is clever, never thought of that. We've used Zurn floor drains with flush, removable covers for cable pass-thrus between concrete floors before (like a 2nd floor control booth down to a tech table), but obviously wouldn't work on a stage.


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## Footer (Nov 2, 2014)

Placement has always been my issue with them. I put it right up there with duplicating of circuits on raceways. I'm sure there is a reason why circuits are duplicated they way they are but I find they are never duplicated in a way that works the way I want to use them. Therefore, just give me a pile of power evenly spaced and I'll run a cable. The high school I attended had 4 floor pockes along the DS edge and 1 floor pocket upstage. The guy who was running the facility at the time had them placed there and runs installed so the Jazz Band he directed could use them. They had basically their entire input list in those boxes. 2 years after the building opened he was fired and that band was disbanded... and the floor pockets and 25 FOH runs are now useless. They did not duplicate those runs anywhere else. Same thing goes for by current building. Gov. Cuomo likes his podium in a very specific place. Goes there every time. However, none of the other governors have liked it there. Never assume that it will always be the way it is. Floor pockets force you into that. I don't want some AV contractor to tell me how I should be doing an event "because that is how the system was designed". Make the place as flexible as possible, don't try to design in how every even will be laid out because I guarantee the client will want something different.


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## AlexDonkle (Nov 2, 2014)

Footer said:


> Same thing goes for by current building. Gov. Cuomo likes his podium in a very specific place. Goes there every time. However, none of the other governors have liked it there.



I have to ask, what preference differences did the Governors have on podium location? (I've never heard of a podium being setup "wrong" before)


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## Timothy A. Samuelson (Nov 3, 2014)

Our stage is littered with floor boxes. While I want to say that I love them, I can't. Our boxes cover every bit of anything I can imagine. Edison, stage pin, xlr, monitor outs, network, headsets, projector connections, camera inputs, everything. When I was hired on, I couldn't wait to get to work. Everything in the boxes went into a patch bay that was clearly labeled and ready to use...

Three months later, after going insane over why some inputs worked one day and a completely different set worked another day, I was finally informed by the maintenance staff that the baptistry (left over from the mega church that the school bought the building from) had flooded several years ago and the boxes are shorted out. 

Now, we have a snake, and run cables...lots of cables.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Nov 3, 2014)

I didn't mention that my preference for downstage is a crossover "trench" - for which I try to do a series of 1' x 4' covers that are just the sub-floor and finish floor (usually 1 1/8" ply under 3/4" plyron) sitting on a pair of sprung sleepers, so about 2 1/4" deep clear. Have played with idea of a row - maybe 5 or 7 - of floor box covers just open to orchestra pit below, perhaps with cable hooks.


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## SteveB (Nov 3, 2014)

AlexDonkle said:


> I have to ask, what preference differences did the Governors have on podium location? (I've never heard of a podium being setup "wrong" before)



Oh Dear. Our college president has complained if her podium is off by an inch and she does notice. Thus we have the placement measured and plotted to the 1/8" and set it the same way every time. I've no explanation, it's just the way it is.


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## Footer (Nov 3, 2014)

AlexDonkle said:


> I have to ask, what preference differences did the Governors have on podium location? (I've never heard of a podium being setup "wrong" before)



Yes, podium setups can be VERY wrong. Welcome to politics. First, if the past Governor was of another party (or they went out in a ball of flames) anything they did the new guy won't do. That even goes as far as stage setups. We have multiple thrusts in my venue that they like to speak on. Cuomo likes to speak with a powerpoint of some kind. Depending on were the screen goes, how many people are on stage, if there is a repeater or not, and a bunch of other variables it can move the podium around a bit. Also, FOH camera positions also dictate where things go. Where that podium lands is a topic of intense debate all day. In the last year things have calmed down a bit where I can just place it "where it was last time" and they usually take it, but you never know what staffer is going to want their opinion heard. 

When he first took office it looked like this: 



And now it looks like this: 


So yes, podium setups can be VERY involved and VERY specific. This setup takes two days to get in after you consider all the lighting, audio, projection, and video needs.


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## Catwalker (Nov 3, 2014)

I have been happy with the boxes on our stage. The audio boxes are thin metal, and vulnerable to crushing (one is), but the power boxes are strong. We run our grand piano over them and have no problems. The main thing is making sure that the crew are careful what they decide to run over the audio boxes. As long as the boxes are out of the way, or have alternate routes around them, there is no problem. They are really nice for our podium setups, and other situations where only one or two cables are needed, instead of having to drag the snake out.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Nov 3, 2014)

A grand is not the problem. A stienway concert D is around 1000 pounds, so 333 per caster. A shell tower may be 2500 to 5000 so 600 to 1250 per caster. A fork truck fully loaded may be 140000 but most on front two wheels - so 5000 or so. Considering I've seen fork trucks on high schol stages, I just shy away from floor boxes. And all on a floor that is suppose to be kind to ballerinas en pointe.


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## TheaterEd (Nov 4, 2014)

We have floor box center stage. Guess what is in it? One data output that no one knows what is connected to....... I'm pretty sure it is part of the schools internet system, but the auditorium has wireless. Brand new auditorium that opened three years ago. Couldn't give me something useful in there could you?


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## Thomas Johnston (Nov 4, 2014)

We have on section for our podium on the SL and SR for our custom podium. Normally there no more than 5 or 6 feet of cable running from our floor box to our podium. This is all surrounded in a multi cable and the podium is always on the platforms no room for more than 2 or 3 people


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## BillConnerFASTC (Nov 4, 2014)

TheaterEd said:


> We have floor box center stage. Guess what is in it? One data output that no one knows what is connected to....... I'm pretty sure it is part of the schools internet system, but the auditorium has wireless. Brand new auditorium that opened three years ago. Couldn't give me something useful in there could you?


Demo ds me of a project I went to for final checkout and discovered an outlet for a central vacuum system sort of DSL but upstage of PL. Not so bad besides bright chrome in a black floor but it would not seal, so whistled unrelentlessly.


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## derekleffew (Nov 4, 2014)

Is there any distinction to be made between a "floor box" and a floor pocket?

Regarding dirt/dust getting into female receptacles: Schuler & Shook used to specify (I'm guessing still do) a rubber strip "hinged" at the top on slanted plates. Very clever!


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## SteveB (Nov 4, 2014)

derekleffew said:


> Is there any distinction to be made between a "floor box" and a floor pocket?
> 
> Regarding dirt/dust getting into female receptacles: Schuler & Shook used to specify (I'm guessing still do) a rubber strip "hinged" at the top on slanted plates. Very clever!



Our FP's of 15 years ago were simple electrical raceway style boxes mounted on the underside of the stage floor, independent of the actual pocket cover with its cable slots. The circuits were 3 ft long pigtails passing thru 1" chase nipples with the cable loops in the basement storeroom (and above head height). Thus we could pull out the receptacle to make the connection. These units stayed fairly free of debris. When we renovated we were not able to use this design as the chase nipples meant the fire rating of the floor was voided. Our new 2P&G receptacles need a regular vacume. We usually just t
Gaff tape the pockets to keep dust out.


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## AlexDonkle (Nov 4, 2014)

derekleffew said:


> Is there any distinction to be made between a "floor box" and a floor pocket?



No actual difference. "Floor box" is typically term used by AV guys, "Floor pocket" is typically used by theatre guys.


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## MNicolai (Nov 4, 2014)

AlexDonkle said:


> No actual difference. "Floor box" is typically term used by AV guys, "Floor pocket" is typically used by theatre guys.



As a blended AV/Theatre guy, I can vouch for this. Theatre-specific products tend to be called pockets, and manufacturers for wider industry (IT/AV/Telecom) tend to call them boxes, which are often customizable to whatever on earth you may want to put in them. Google "floor pocket" and you'll find all kinds of products that look to be specifically for theatre (Whirlwind, Lex, etc). Google "floor boxes" and you'll find all kinds of generic stuff under the sun.

"Box" is a much more common term for electrical and telecom contractors as their jobs are focused intently on specifying and providing the correct wall, ceiling, and floor electrical back boxes. Side note: This is so much so that if you find yourself buying an AV installation from anyone who can't speak fluent electrician, run far and run fast for coordination headaches and silly, sometimes expensive change orders are on the horizon.


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