# Some Rigging Explanation and Help



## gmff (Oct 19, 2016)

I am working on getting some proper rigging up in the ceiling of our old Opera House. The Opera House belongs to the town and when the reno was completed in 2008 the group that did the reno work used eye screws and chain as well as pulleys (screwed to plywood and collar ties) and rope to hold up everything from the ceiling and plywood above the stage. It is not safe. I have asked the town budget committee for a warrant article for the money to do the rigging. The chairman of the budget committee was the overseer of the reno that put the eye screws and pulleys on the ceiling, he just did not see why the stuff put up than were not ok to continue to use. We have tried to raise money to get thing done for 5 years and did not want to go to the town but need to now. I don't want to create a problem by bringing the explanation to the public as the place is used heavily. I just need have some documented info that I can bring to the board privately so they understand. This would be the primary goal, but if this does not work I would not mind scaring the hell out of them with some public information about the unsafe condition. Thanks!!


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## Van (Oct 19, 2016)

See if you can talk to Sapsis Rigging. Get Bill to come do a rigging inspection. IDK what it costs but he can give you a detailed analysis of or your "system". 
I don't know of anyone that would simply come inspect and write a report for free. You could perhaps buy a copy of Glerums "Stage Rigging Handbook" and make the board read it. It's hard to find sources that actually show "bad Rigging" and tell you ,"don't do this!" You usually only find books that tell you, "This is how you should do it."


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## BillConnerFASTC (Oct 19, 2016)

A local structural engineer might be enough. You need to be able to explain the loads - simply the weight in pounds and mention possibility of impact loads - and it should be enough for an engineer to ascertain the hazard - or not. You could mention that the industry uses 8:1 or 10:1 design factors - working load to ultimate strength. Being local they might care more and might have more credence. Sometimes someoen from far away and offering expensive fixes doesn't get it done.


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## Footer (Oct 19, 2016)

Give BMI supply a call. Their best inspector lives in the middle of Vermont... not too far away from you. They'll have him come out and do the inspection pretty much cost. Production Advantage has people as well and are close. Have any pictures? We have a few certs around here who can help as well.


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## Dionysus (Nov 13, 2016)

I agree with Footer, since BMI and Production Advantage are close you might was well try calling. Posting photos to here would also be an asset as I am sure people could be happy to write something up for you. Also please keep us in the loop.

Ive had a similar "argument" with a local public space outdoor venue. Basically an odd band-shell, and the "rigging" for the main speakers was done by a small local music store who they went though for the PA, myself and others attempted to consult (and would of told them to go to a much more reputable installer who would actually rig correctly, or at least made sure it was done right) to no avail.
It is VERY VERY WRONG. the wire rope is FAILING and the speakers have SHIFTED. Ever since I first saw it (I was the first audio person to use the system for a live performance) I've been trying to tell them how very wrong it is, again to no avail.
There are a few of us constantly mentioning to the CORRECT people in charge that it needs to be fixed YESTERDAY. No good.
I've started publicly telling anyone I can who I think will listen that the speakers WILL fall, and WILL possibly kill someone. Now finally they are TALKING about fixing it.

Sometimes you need to just force their hand. Unfortunately.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Nov 13, 2016)

I'll only reinforce a common theme for me, and that is calling a vendor/contractor for this kind of help may not help. Their report or warnings will be seen as sales motivated. Faced with administration, an independent voice with no interest in what else you buy from whomever you want is usually more creditable.


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## SteveB (Nov 13, 2016)

BMI and Pro Advantage are highly recommended.

Also Port Lighting down in Portsmouth, NH. Sean Harding, a CB member, works their, as well as a friend Keith Chapman. Good company from what I hear, does rigging installs as part of their business.


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## gafftaper (Nov 14, 2016)

I have to agree with @BillConnerFASTC. The easy way, cheapest way, and the politically subtle way is to not get into the rigging. Just bring in a local structural engineer look at the loads and the way things are set up. You'll get the report you need.


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## darinlwebb (Nov 14, 2016)

If you aren't killed by falling hardware, you'll be killed by the angry mob after someone else does. Small town politics sucks, and if you can't find anyone in the local gov to fight this battle for you, then you might have to give an ultimatum - get a third party inspection or expect a letter to the editor.

It's been 8 years anyway, they should be doing regular inspections and they should occasionally be rotating inspectors to avoid bias and complacency.

I'll second @Van regarding the books. They're great about showing you the *right* way, but nobody wants to get sued for telling you about all of the *good enough* ways. That said, in a public space where the people using the rigging are coming and going, you shouldn't settle for *good enough*.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Nov 14, 2016)

Another post where the OP was last here on the day he posted this, and not since.


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## DeadCheerios (Nov 14, 2016)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> Another post where the OP was last here on the day he posted this, and not since.


Makes me wonder if the rigging failed...


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## EdSavoie (Nov 14, 2016)

Could one not refuse to fly anything?

One could theoretically pull all the loads off until there is nothing but bare bar and categorically refuse to fly anything.

That would garner attention quickly enough.


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## SteveB (Nov 14, 2016)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> Another post where the OP was last here on the day he posted this, and not since.



Ghost Post

'Ya think you saw this but are not sure.....


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## BillConnerFASTC (Nov 14, 2016)

EdSavoie said:


> Could one not refuse to fly anything?
> 
> One could theoretically pull all the loads off until there is nothing but bare bar and categorically refuse to fly anything.
> 
> That would garner attention quickly enough.



Sure. I've put a red tag on a system once. Told the owner in writing that people should not be allowed under it. But you have to be careful if you are an employee. If there are a thousand stages like this in US - and I suspect several thousand - probably only a failure resulting in injury or death maybe 1 in a thousand? No one really knows but, discounting performer flying, the record is not that bad - as much many of us like to speak of the inherent danger. And this case seems to be an antiquated structure in which people have hung some stuff, not a rigging system in disrepair. The fix needed is an overall plan, not how familiar hardware might be substituted for what's there. A structural engineer has that clout.


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## JChenault (Nov 15, 2016)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> Another post where the OP was last here on the day he posted this, and not since.



I guess you and Van were just too rough on him 

But seriously I don't understand that behavior either.


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## venuetech (Nov 15, 2016)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> Another post where the OP was last here on the day he posted this, and not since.




likely has not logged on but has viewed thread as a guest.


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## dvsDave (Nov 27, 2016)

Or got alll the emails giving him the text of the thread.


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## Jay Ashworth (Nov 27, 2016)

Bill: What're the services of a structral engineer going for these days?

I gotta new house, and I might be interested in scaring up the fees of one, so's I can get a handle on how things are as they sit. I won't be doing Mary Poppins or Peter Pan, but...


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## BillConnerFASTC (Nov 27, 2016)

Varies a lot but a local small or one person office I would guess be in the $150-200 per hr range. I'd guess a site visit and report - no drawings - is maybe a half day. Just my best guess.


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## Jay Ashworth (Nov 28, 2016)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> Varies a lot but a local small or one person office I would guess be in the $150-200 per hr range. I'd guess a site visit and report - no drawings - is maybe a half day. Just my best guess.


More than I charge. Ok; got it. Thanks. Anyone you'd recommend near Tampa Bay FL?


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## TheaterEd (Nov 28, 2016)

Jay Ashworth said:


> Bill: What're the services of a structral engineer going for these days?
> 
> I gotta new house, and I might be interested in scaring up the fees of one, so's I can get a handle on how things are as they sit. I won't be doing Mary Poppins or Peter Pan, but...


I just paid like $600 for an inspection on my house. A lot of inspectors had hourly rates and a lot of ambiguity about how much it would cost. One that was recommended to me offered me a flat fee, so I went with him. Seller had to do $15,000 in repairs to the foundation before we bought. Worth every penny.

One thing to note, if you already bought the house and have this inspection done, you will need to disclose the findings of the inspection when you go to sell....


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## BillConnerFASTC (Nov 28, 2016)

OK. Is this a "house", as in a new auditorium and stage where you're working, or a house, as in where you live? I was speaking of a structural engineer to look at structure of an auditorium and stage. I thought house inspectors, as my be required for a home mortgage, were generally not engineers or architects.


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## TheaterEd (Nov 28, 2016)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> OK. Is this a "house", as in a new auditorium and stage where you're working, or a house, as in where you live? I was speaking of a structural engineer to look at structure of an auditorium and stage. I thought house inspectors, as my be required for a home mortgage, were generally not engineers or architects.


I read it as an actual house, not a theatrical house since he mentioned that he won't be doing Mary Poppins or Peter Pan.

Home inspectors are not engineers, my home inspector recommended I bring one in so I had to bring in a structural engineer to specifically look at some issues, and I'm really glad I did.


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## Jay Ashworth (Nov 28, 2016)

Nope; I was asking a theatre designer about it in a theatre forum cause the house is a theatre; I got the answer from Bill that I was after.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Nov 28, 2016)

The problems of bulletin board communication. I equally dislike phone and video conferences for important meetings because its so hard to tell if what one just stated was understood at all, let alone with the meanings and subtleties intended and easily done face to face.


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## Jay Ashworth (Nov 28, 2016)

Yeah, and that can be a problem, but I hadn't expected it to be one here.


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## TheaterEd (Nov 29, 2016)

Jay Ashworth said:


> Yeah, and that can be a problem, but I hadn't expected it to be one here.


Lol, yeah, that's what I get for posting on Monday morning before the caffeine has kicked in.


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