# Amplifying an orchestra



## vincecr (Jan 27, 2011)

I'm a lighting person but I was curious about the proper way to amplify an orchestra. This isn't for any show specifically. So It can range from miking electric instruments (i.e electric bass, guitars) to woodwinds and drums or anything. i just wanted to know what the proper way of doing it is and how to hook it up to a mixer.


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## DaveySimps (Jan 27, 2011)

That is a VERY broad question. There is no one "right" way to mic anything. Do a search here and you will find quite a bit of info on the subject. If you don't find an answer to all of your question, feel free to post specific questions, and we are happy to help. Most people prefer to make the pit sound as natural as possible, just reinforce the sound of the pit. However, even that is no set rule, because a lot of rock musicals can be mixed to sound more like a rock concert.

~Dave


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## bishopthomas (Jan 28, 2011)

Pretty much what Dave said... It can range from no mics or just a pair up to a full 48 channel console being used for just the orchestra. It all depends on the situation and what you are trying to accomplish. As far as spot miking techniques that also depends on many things, not least of which is the instrument. Sorry we aren't being very specific, but the answers are going to match the question.


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## rmartin (Jan 28, 2011)

Miking an orchestra can require more then 2X 48 channel boards and minimally two experienced Audio techs for the mix if your are doing television broadcast, and then there is also all the post production stuff.
In my facility we only mike the orchestra for a musical to foldback the sound to the actors
far upstage as they can not always hear what is comming out of the pit. In that particular case the keyboard needs to be most prevalent.


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## vincecr (Jan 28, 2011)

Ya I think I get it though most instruments are loud enough not to be amplified. But lets say you had an electric guitar or electric bass these already have an amp would you run these directly to your sound system or would you just leave them in the amp. and if you have hanging mics on stage would the sound that comes out of the amp be reamplified by the stage mics and lose quality.


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## nd925a (Jan 28, 2011)

If you have an electric guitar/bass I believe the best quality amplification is going to be to mic their amp. I'm not sure the specific mic to use, but I think a condensor mic works best


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## bishopthomas (Jan 28, 2011)

The short answer: It depends. The best solution is probably to have the amplified instruments balance themselves within the orchestra. That way they are treated just like the rest of the group. If you're not miking anything it might be odd to have just guitar and bass coming through the PA and the rest of the orchestra from the source. But that all depends on how your sound system is set up and how you decide to mix the show.

To nd925a: There are many opinions about how to mic amplifiers, but my personal preference is to DI a bass (add a mic on the cab if it sounds good) and mic the guitar amp. Acoustic guitars get a DI; acoustic through an amp rarely sounds good.


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## jkowtko (Feb 2, 2011)

There is definitely the issue of splitting the sound between the PA and the source, so if you are going to mic anything, then you pretty much have to mic it all.

However, you might be able to get by with a few well-placed mics on the weaker instruments, and then a stereo pair in front of the conductor for general pickup. That might allow you enough of a balance to get the entire orchestra through the PA and still hear those weaker instruments.

What I have done (middle school) is to close-mic the piano, area mic the percussion with 3-4 condensors in the right places to bias on the timp, vibes and congas vs. the louder drums, and 4-5 area mics on the string and brass section, again focusing a mic in the string bass area, and one on the flutes. It doesn't sound half bad, either live or on the recording.

-- John


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## GoldPhoenix (Feb 2, 2011)

Just as everyone has been saying, each situation (director, show, venue, size and kind of band, and audience [tv, live theater, cd recording etc.]). But why cant we address those situation and talk about it. 

These are things that I like to do for tv, live theater and live sound reinforcement.

*Guitar-* Mic the guitar cab. Microphone choices are practically endless. For smaller budgets use a shure sm57. If you can spend more, or you have other choices in your mic aresenal, try using harp mics. Listen to these and you can easily see how using different kinds of mics can really make magic HERE.
Large diaphragm condenser mic, or small/large diaphragm microphone combos. Look and compare the microphone's attributes HERE. Ribbon mics are also amazing. A great article about guitar cab mic'ing HERE If you have any rack gear consider running this signal through a compressor. Two good compressor companies: Ashly Audio Home Page, dbx® Professional Products).

*Bass guitar*- People tend to mic a bass cab but it can really get muddy if your not careful. I've seen people use shure sm57's for this but look for microphones for lower frequencies like this one HERE. But it may be best to use a "DI box" found HERE. You should also run the signal through a gate to get a cleaner sound, you may also choose to run this through a compressor too. Don't forget to Eq this either. The tone you get from this choice of equipment can be tweaked to achieve the desired sound for the production.

*Drums-* If you dont have many microphones then try putting one infront of the bass drum and one hanging off-center of the snare. if you can use more microphones try mic'ing the snare and two overhead, and on each of the toms. You can find mic kits for drums. But you may want to choose each mic separately to get better sound capturing. Also these mics should be Eq'ed may need to be run through a gate and compressor.

*Electric drums and electric keyboar*d- most of them have stereo RCA outputs, put those into the board using RCA-to-1/4" TRS or TS adapters.

*Vocals*- If all of your singers/ actors are on stage and no one is singing in the orchestra this doesn't apply, but otherwise you have a plethora of options available to make your band/orchestra set themselves apart from the rest of the pack. On the cheap you can use a Shure SM58, but there are other types of mics in the same price range. My favorite kind of micrpohone for many vocal recordings is a ribbon Mic like these HERE. Run signal through with some reverb and Eq. Look at some rack effects HERE.

*Strings-* You can find omni-directional mics to pick up a large number of strings. You could also mic each instument. I would also suggest to Eq everything.

*Brass and Woodwind-* a great article about this right HERE.

Here are some tips for live sound reinforcement
-Feedback suppressors and loudspeaker management systems
-If your set up could benifit with crossovers

If all of this equipment seems scary it may be much easier, cheaper and provide superiour sound if you invested in this piece of magic HERE. That board has built-in effects for each channel. All of the effects, and signal processors are done on one board using an intuitive design. Also, if the audio needs to be recorded, the board connects to a computer and, with the supplied software, records a multi-track composition.

If you are using minimal equipment and wish to record, take a Mic out from the board and into a computer. Use a program such as THIS to record.

These are two amazing resources for sound and mic'ing:
Tons of information for rookie to pro level sound op/designer HERE.
"The Soundcraft Guide to Mixing" illustrates how to mic a band, using a board and basics on effects and signal processors HERE.

Hope this helps.

~Allan


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## GoldPhoenix (Feb 3, 2011)

vincecr- Does that help at all?

Anyone else want to contribute?

~Allan


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## chausman (Feb 4, 2011)

I think that, unless it is show critical, then it is best to just experiment with what you have and see what sounds the way you want it to. Maybe try borrowing or renting some other mics that you don't have and try those too. Sound is one of the things that (can) be difficult to explain on an internet forum. Just have fun. 

If it is show critical, than what anyone else said is good advice. I just like to find other ways to do things.


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## SHARYNF (Feb 4, 2011)

we need more information

is this just an orchestra performing, or is it along with a theater production?
is the orchestra on stage, in a pit or ???
if you can describe the setup then you can get more suggestions

Sharyn


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## GoldPhoenix (Feb 4, 2011)

SHARYNF- if you read the original post you'll see that this isn't for a particular show, there is no more information, this is a discussion....thats all. make up your own situation or recall a past experience. 

~Allan


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## bishopthomas (Feb 4, 2011)

I just did Idina Menzel with the NJ symphony orchestra yesterday and here is what we ended up doing:

1. Kick - D112
2. Snare - SM57
3. OH SR - KM184
4. OH SL - KM184
5. Bass - DI
6. El Guitar - SM57
7. Ac Guitar - DI
8. Piano Low - e609 (unused)
9. Piano High - AMT piano mic
10. Star Vocal - KSM9 RF
11. Star Vocal spare - KSM9 RF
12. Conductor - SM58 RF

And the area miked orchestra:
13. Violins 1 - Rode NT5
14. Violins 2 - Rode NT5
15. Violas 1 - KSM109
16. Violas 2 - KSM109
17. Woodwinds 1 - C460
18. Woodwinds 2 - C460
19. Cello 1 - KSM27
20. Cello 2 - KSM27
21. Saxes 1 - 414
22. Saxes 2 - 414
23. Trumpet solo - C460
24. French horn solo - SM57
25. Stand up bass - C460

This seemed to work well for both FOH and monitor engineers. Idina was on ears and wedges and had a full orchestra/band mix in the IEM's. Oh, as far as the "how to hook it up to a mixer" question goes... Microphones on stands, cables to subsnakes, subsnakes to splitter, splitter to M7CL on stage for monitors and M7CLES stage boxes to 300' of CAT5 cable to the surface at FOH.


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## GoldPhoenix (Feb 5, 2011)

bishopthomas-wow thats awesome! What were you running for mixers? What did you have for rack gear? 

THIS is from Soundcraft and I used it many times to help new techs in training to see whats involved in mic'ing a band.

Hope this helps.

~Allan


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## bishopthomas (Feb 5, 2011)

No rack gear as the consoles were M7CL's (one "regular" one at monitor world, one ES with digital snake at FOH).


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## SHARYNF (Feb 6, 2011)

GoldPhoenix said:


> SHARYNF- if you read the original post you'll see that this isn't for a particular show, there is no more information, this is a discussion....thats all. make up your own situation or recall a past experience.
> 
> ~Allan


 
I guess the problem I have with this is that without the supporting situation description, most recommendations are totally out of context and of limited value

Let me raise some issues
Why do you want to amplify the orchestra:

If it is due to a poor placement of the orchestra vis a vis the audience that is one thing (a lot of the drive to mic everything has originated from some of the situations where the orchestra was off stage or in a less than ideal position

It is easy to look at how we might mic a band and extend that to an orchestra
this raises some issues that need to be carefully looked at

Do you understand the role of the conductor, if you have a situation where the conductor is "playing the orchestra as an instrument" then what the conductor hears at the podium vs what the audience hears due to foh could be dramatically different and at cross purposes.

Most bands use a system of monitors either wedge or iem's but typically this is not practical or desirable for an orchestra, so from a musicians standpoint on stage in a orchestra, moving beyond the on stage acoustic sound scape to one that is mainly existing FOH can be problematic.

There have been questions on this forum in the past re band shells, showing that in a number of instances people might not be aware that the purpose of the shell is to enhance the on stage soundscape for the performers , especially in a typical theater high incidence of soft goods etc environme3njt
I tend to take a less is better approach, trying to determine what the problem is acoustically that we are trying to correct for. The typical solution of mic everything, IMHO can be a real mistake especially for the inexperienced foh person. 

some of the issues are:
Are you trying to make a live "sound" intentionally or not sound more like a recorded sound? There really is quite a difference in just how a live acoustic soundfield generated by an orchestra in a good acoustic venue. 
In general, since you at foh have little control over the sonic level output from many of the typically no amplified instruments, you can easily wind up raising the overall sound level to compensate for this lack of control, and at the same time can tend to generate what I would call an "in your face" type of sound" . Just as an aside, on of the challenges is for the foh person to have an acoustic memory to be able to differentiate a live orchestra vs a recorded band in how things should sound

for recording a live orchestra, a decca tree suspended above and behind the conductor has been widely used very successfully 

Decca tree - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Typically this is where I would go first.

As for on stage levels I would work so that the the conductor was "in charge" so that rather than have the foh decide what instrument to bring forware, have it be the interaction between the conductor and the PERFORMER that brings up the level. So in this approach the balance is more to create the sound for the performers and the conductor and then that total sound brought to the audience. 

I have seen many situations where for instance everything is attempted to be mic'ed, and what starts to happen is that for instance that 100g Steinway 9 foot begins to sound like an inexpensive spinet. or the sound of the sax is predominately from the bell instead of also from the pads etc. 

Some other things to think about
If you look at a production where the same performance is basically done night after night, or the band on ture plays the same songs time and time again, you can develop a better and better tuned level/eq mix and be able to effective utilize 40+ input channels. Problem is in your typical mic everything orchestra setup up there is little time for precise mic placement (vs in a recording session) and the levels/ eq tends to be a rough starting placed (vs reworking the mix in a large multitrack recording


SO there are different approaches, IMO the first place to start is what is the situation, what are you trying to correct and enhance. 

If you have the benefit of trying out things during rehearsals periodically mute the system and make sure what you "creating" really sounds better, if there are some issues look to see the best way to correct them, usually the simplest method works best.

Sharyn


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## 3dB (Feb 7, 2011)

SHARYNF said:


> I guess the problem I have with this is that without the supporting situation description, most recommendations are totally out of context and of limited value
> SO there are different approaches, IMO the first place to start is what is the situation, what are you trying to correct and enhance.
> Sharyn



I agree with SHARYNF, GP. Even with general questions, it can only help to get more of an idea of what type of situation is _typical _for the OP. Never hurts - sometimes helps - occasionally helps _a lot_.

Regards,
Mark


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