# Urgent! Quick DMX question



## FlashBang (Mar 25, 2011)

Hi,

So I'm putting in my final order with this year's budget, but I've got a question I need answered first. Quick responses will be hugely appreciated!

I don't quite understand my dmx distribution setup. This is what I have. 

My board has DMX female port. M-F cable runs between that to connect to DMX-M faceplate directly under the board.

I have DMX-M faceplates also located:
1)In the control booth behind my FOH position
2)Stageleft wing
3)Stageright wing
4)Dimmer cage (Here there is a faceplate with male connection, and a seemingly CAT-5 cable coming out top of the faceplate box running into my dimmer rack

QUESTIONS: 
1) Are the male connectors in the wings in case I want to position my control board there, or are the outlets to control moving lights / dmx accesories? (Or does this depend on wiring that I need to find the plans for?)
2) If they are additional control board locations, how do I route control to moving fixtures?

Thanks so much in advance!


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## Scarrgo (Mar 25, 2011)

From the sounds of it, the other locations are for you to put your control board in those locations. We have the same setup at my building. I run a single run(output 2) from the booth to a opti-splitter backstage for any other toys we might be using.
As others have said, and my 2cents, is to buy a splitter to be setup backstage in a strategic location that works for your setup, and than you can run to other locations as needed.

I would get at least a 5 output splitter if you can, as you never know what the future my bring.

Hope this helps
Sean...

FlashBang said:


> Hi,
> 
> So I'm putting in my final order with this year's budget, but I've got a question I need answered first. Quick responses will be hugely appreciated!
> 
> ...


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## FlashBang (Mar 25, 2011)

Not sure I totally understand.

To send DMX control to more than my dimmer rack, I need a second DMX run from FOH to backstage where the cable will run into an opto-splitter?

Is it possible to split my CAT-5 output that sends data to my dimmer rack and send a second CAT-5 into the opto-splitter?

Cable runs are impossible for me to do, and because we need to bring a contractor in to do the runs they rarely get accepted.

Quick responses much appreciated! Thanks


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## DuckJordan (Mar 25, 2011)

FlashBang said:


> Not sure I totally understand.
> 
> To send DMX control to more than my dimmer rack, I need a second DMX run from FOH to backstage where the cable will run into an opto-splitter?
> 
> ...



Depends on the type of Dimmer Rack and board. If you somehow go from DMX to cat 5 it makes me wonder if there already isn't a distributed system in place somewhere between the two locations. 

What we need answered is type of Dimmers and type of board.

Thanks,
Jordan


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## FlashBang (Mar 25, 2011)

The dimmer rack is ETC L86.

The board (although I don't see that being a factor?) is now ETC Express, soon to be ETC Element


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## shiben (Mar 25, 2011)

It really sounds to me like they might have run cat 5 cable instead of DMX cable, unless the cat5 is terminated with an ethernet plug at the dimmer rack. But yes, unless there is a passthru on the rack, you will need a 2nd run for accessories.


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## FlashBang (Mar 25, 2011)

A simpler question that may give me my answer is:

On the DMX cable that delivers data to the first in your series of fixtures, what is the gender of the non-fixture end?

Or can this data be drawn from either a male or a female port?


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## shiben (Mar 25, 2011)

FlashBang said:


> A simpler question that may give me my answer is:
> 
> On the DMX cable that delivers data to the first in your series of fixtures, what is the gender of the non-fixture end?
> 
> Or can this data be drawn from either a male or a female port?


 
The gender of the port doesnt matter in terms of the signal flow. So data could run either way along a line. Now, in common practice, data flows from the female to the male, same with electrical current of pretty much all forms.


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## FlashBang (Mar 25, 2011)

I'm looking now at the manual for my dimmer rack (ETC L86/EM264) and I think it may be possible to send a signal thru.

If someone could check out the info under the headers "Enabling the SIO" and "Control Termination" and let me know if that indicates anything I'd appreciate it. 
http://www.etcconnect.com/docs/docs_downloads/manuals/L86_EM264_Manual.pdf

It seems to me you can send data thru, but I'm not used to this terminology.


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## Lotos (Mar 25, 2011)

FlashBang said:


> I'm looking now at the manual for my dimmer rack (ETC L86/EM264) and I think it may be possible to send a signal thru.
> 
> If someone could check out the info under the headers "Enabling the SIO" and "Control Termination" and let me know if that indicates anything I'd appreciate it.
> http://www.etcconnect.com/docs/docs_downloads/manuals/L86_EM264_Manual.pdf
> ...


 
I suspect the port in question (SIO) is a DB9 or DB25 Serial port... Likely for rack monitoring, etc... Or possibly Analog style 0-10v input.

The 2nd DMX port on your rack (if there is one) as far as I can tell by the manual, is likely another male port... For *receiving* DMX from a second source.


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## FlashBang (Mar 25, 2011)

Just found the cable diagram for the DMX system. A diagram can be found by clicking the link next to "SEE ATTACHMENT" at this link: New EC - PB - DMX / RFU / Link Plug-In Station - Electronic Theatre Controls

The diagram that concerns my setup is on page 5 (or possibly page 3).

It seems this indicated that the DMX ports in the wings are indeed for data-input not output, but can someone confirm?

Thanks, as always, for the extremely useful support


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## Lotos (Mar 25, 2011)

FlashBang said:


> Just found the cable diagram for the DMX system. A diagram can be found by clicking the link next to "SEE ATTACHMENT" at this link: New EC - PB - DMX / RFU / Link Plug-In Station - Electronic Theatre Controls
> 
> The diagram that concerns my setup is on page 5 (or possibly page 3).
> 
> ...


 
Agree with your assesment... These appear to be optional input locations.
Likely so you can run a cable from them out into the house, and program from a location in the audience.

Not exactly what you wanted to hear, however.


For what you want to do, your best bet is to purchase an opto-splitter to place between the console and wall plate.


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## FlashBang (Mar 25, 2011)

Lotos said:


> For what you want to do, your best bet is to purchase an opto-splitter to place between the console and wall plate.


 
This would mean a contractor to run DMX from FOH to backstage through our maze of a cieling. An ETC support technician just mentioned to me that perhaps the dmx signal can "touch-and-go" at the dimmer rack and then control other dmx units. This sounds likely to be a cheaper option, and whenever my superiors hear that we want cables run in the auditorium they basically run away.

However, when the ETC tech. heard that the dimmer rack was an L86 he hesitated at its capability of this "touch-and-go" DMX signal and suggested getting a dealer technician in to answer me. For the sake of time, can anyone confirm that this rack can or can not be used in this way?


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## Lotos (Mar 25, 2011)

FlashBang said:


> This would mean a contractor to run DMX from FOH to backstage through our maze of a cieling. An ETC support technician just mentioned to me that perhaps the dmx signal can "touch-and-go" at the dimmer rack and then control other dmx units. This sounds likely to be a cheaper option, and whenever my superiors hear that we want cables run in the auditorium they basically run away.
> 
> However, when the ETC tech. heard that the dimmer rack was an L86 he hesitated at its capability of this "touch-and-go" DMX signal and suggested getting a dealer technician in to answer me. For the sake of time, can anyone confirm that this rack can or can not be used in this way?


 
While I can't speak either way to his suggestion...
You could put an opto splitter at the rack... Could you not?
Split the signal just prior to rack entry, and run cable from there?

The other thing you'll want to remember, is that with intelligent fixtures one universe will eventually no longer be enough... And at that point, you're back to needing to run cable from the control console again.


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## FlashBang (Mar 25, 2011)

Lotos said:


> While I can't speak either way to his suggestion...
> You could put an opto splitter at the rack... Could you not?
> Split the signal just prior to rack entry, and run cable from there?


Interesting point. But I know most opto-splitters are also signal boosters so that the signal doesn't drop. Will boosting after this long a run be less effective than if I boost at the source and do the long runs with each individual cable coming out of the split/boost?


Lotos said:


> The other thing you'll want to remember, is that with intelligent fixtures one universe will eventually no longer be enough... And at that point, you're back to needing to run cable from the control console again.


If I put the opto-splitter at FOH I'll probably run it out of the 2nd universe and leave the 1st universe solely on the dimmer rack to avoid a 2nd universe cable-run in the future. If i put the split at the rack level, I only have 96 dimmers, which I believe takes 96 of the 512 control channels? That leaves enough control channels for at least 20 fixtures or a lot more DMX-accesories.

Thanks!


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## Lotos (Mar 25, 2011)

FlashBang said:


> Interesting point. But I know most opto-splitters are also signal boosters so that the signal doesn't drop. Will boosting after this long a run be less effective than if I boost at the source and do the long runs with each individual cable coming out of the split/boost?


 
In a word, 'no'... While the theory behind boosting a stronger signal is solid, provided there is signal of resonable strength (as there must be for your racks to work), the opto-splitter will work identically at either location.



FlashBang said:


> If I put the opto-splitter at FOH I'll probably run it out of the 2nd universe and leave the 1st universe solely on the dimmer rack to avoid a 2nd universe cable-run in the future. If i put the split at the rack level, I only have 96 dimmers, which I believe takes 96 of the 512 control channels? That leaves enough control channels for at least 20 fixtures or a lot more DMX-accesories.


 
Indeed! It would remove the first 96 control channels. And you're correct, that does leave plenty of headroom! I'm just a great proponent of "future-proofing" something as much as possible... (You'd be surprised how fast moving lights and LED fixtures can eat through a Universe.)


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## derekleffew (Mar 25, 2011)

See the thread http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/lighting-electrics/21074-dmx-inputs-outputs.html .

Also, 

avilicious said:


> The theater has DMX inputs ... my question is- why does the theater only have DMX inputs and no output jacks?




SteveB said:


> Some add'l info' as to where those DMX input connections are located would be helpful. In general, a system might be designed to have multiple DMX input locations to allow the console to be re-located, or for a visiting console to readily connect to the facility dimmers.
> 
> Anybody's guess why the theater has no additional output locations. Generally it's because the proper method to get additional DMX outputs is thru the use of an Opto-Splitter/Distribution system, that provides for isolated outputs in convenient locations. With an older system, especially with a lower end console using an Express, nobody took into consideration that 15 years later some movers, scrollers or LED's might be used and that a data distro system would be required. Just guessing at this though.
> 
> In any event, the Express does have a 2nd DMX output and if it's not used can be used to connect up to the MAC700's.


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## MNicolai (Mar 25, 2011)

This diagram from Doug Fleenor's website may help you visualize what a system riser with a splitter would look like.


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## FlashBang (Mar 25, 2011)

Ok, so this revelation has effectively devoured my budget, but heres the new plan.

Buy this: MA Lighting DMX 7-Way Booster / Splitter

Pull the connections from the control termination in my rack, and re-end them with RJ-45 for input to this unit.

Run one output into my rack

Run 6 outputs over cat5 to DMX 5-pin outputs spread across my stage.

Hows it sound to you guys?


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## derekleffew (Mar 25, 2011)

Random thoughts:


 That's an expensive opto-splitter, even more costly than the "gold standard" DFD model 125. I like the D-Split for simple, limited-budget applications. Standard configuration is two XLR3 and two XLR5 outputs, but it can be ordered with all XLR5 outs.
 Your DMX line(s) is probably in conduit running to the dimmer rack now. How are you going to break in to/out of the conduit?
 Where/how are you going to provide 120VAC to the opto?
 Are you qualified to be changing wiring inside a dimmer rack? (See below.)
 Using CAT5 as DMX cable is fine in permanent installations, but doesn't hold up well as portable cable.
 Soldering CAT5 to an XLR is inviting issues. The only proper way is to use IDC terminals. Or use adapters like this. Unlike the XLR, the RJ45 connector is not intended for repeated mate/unmate cycles. It is fragile and easily broken.


starksk said:


> derekleffew said:
> 
> 
> > ...It is unfortunate that no installation dimmer racks are supplied with DMX out/thru connectors. starksk, STEVETERRY, or (other dimmer manufacturer representative), are there any issues with a Qualified Individual adding such a jack to an installed rack? Or running appropriate DMX cabling (in conduit if required) to a more convenient outlet on stage?
> ...


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## FlashBang (Mar 25, 2011)

Don't have too much time now, so I'm gonna focus on the actual optosplitter later. For now:

derekleffew said:


> Your DMX line(s) is probably in conduit running to the dimmer rack now. How are you going to break in to/out of the conduit?


There is a gap between conduit and rack, it doesn't run right in as does the power conduit. The DMX over CAT5 comes out of the conduit and there are about two feet of slack cable before the connection inside the dimmer rack.

derekleffew said:


> Where/how are you going to provide 120VAC to the opto?


The optospliiter would be installed backstage, probably in the electrical cage with the dimmer rack. I don't see delivering power being an issue (why would it?), but can check with my electrician.

derekleffew said:


> Are you qualified to be changing wiring inside a dimmer rack? (See below.)


Are you talking electrician qualifications or ETC product servicing qualifications? I don't see us changing the wiring to the extent of adding a jack inside the rack. We would only remove the connections inside the rack so they can feed the optosplitter, and then run one of the splits back to the rack. 

derekleffew said:


> Using CAT5 as DMX cable is fine in permanent installations, but doesn't hold up well as portable cable.


As I work in a college, I could have the network guys run cat5 / RJ45 as much as neccesary. The part that had been worrying me is whether I can ask those guys to terminate the cat5 as a 5 or 3-pin XLR, a problem which your connector would solve.


Do my answers hold up? 


Thanks for the help!


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## DuckJordan (Mar 26, 2011)

FlashBang said:


> Don't have too much time now, so I'm gonna focus on the actual optosplitter later. For now:
> 
> There is a gap between conduit and rack, it doesn't run right in as does the power conduit. The DMX over CAT5 comes out of the conduit and there are about two feet of slack cable before the connection inside the dimmer rack.
> 
> ...



Your'e Correct on everything except that you need to be a certified electrician to work inside of a dimmer rack to that extent. even though you are just disconnecting the cat5 line your working on a device that is 3 phase High Amperage equipment. The issues with running cat 5 as your DMX line is over the years the cat5 will break down faster than standard DMX cable.

Hope this helps and make sure only a licensed electrician is messing inside of that dimmer rack.


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## FlashBang (Mar 26, 2011)

My question about qualified technician was to determine if my college's resident electricians were adequate, but from closer review it seems derek was indicating an ETC-certified technician. Does this mean I need to contact one of their dealers? We normally use a specific company for cable installation.

Also, derek, I'm curious as to what made you question the availability of AC (my paranoid side makes me think I'm really missing something)

And, also from closer review, I noticed the RJ45-XLR connector that was linked to shows a male RJ45 entering the connector. I know my network guys can run cat5 and terminate with female RJ45 wallplates - so can I terminate the data stream RJ45-F and buy a connector that's RJ45-M to XLR? 

Or would it be advisable to run the data to a RJ45-M end, attach the connector, and have the XLR connector end sunk into the wall?(This seems like asking for those impossible to find malfunctions)


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## gcpsoundlight (Mar 26, 2011)

Depends on what is running on the cable. If it is just straight DMX512, then XLR all the way, though you will probably run into problems if you start putting heaps of intelligent fixtures on there. If it is another protocol such as ART-Net etc, then RJ45 is the way to go, though from the sounds of what has been said, it would be DMX.


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## FlashBang (Mar 26, 2011)

derekleffew said:


> Soldering CAT5 to an XLR is inviting issues. The only proper way is to use IDC terminals. Or use adapters like this. Unlike the XLR, the RJ45 connector is not intended for repeated mate/unmate cycles. It is fragile and easily broken.




gcpsoundlight said:


> Depends on what is running on the cable. If it is just straight DMX512, then XLR all the way, though you will probably run into problems if you start putting heaps of intelligent fixtures on there.



Some disagreement here. Further discussion?

I don't plan on using a ton of movers, but also don't want to limit expansion / upgrade.


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## DuckJordan (Mar 26, 2011)

FlashBang said:


> Some disagreement here. Further discussion?
> 
> I don't plan on using a ton of movers, but also don't want to limit expansion / upgrade.


 

Not disagreement, Different types off connectors on the devices. there are other control types such as what ETC has done, and creates the ability to use cheaper cat5e to run a dmx node where you need it rather than having to run the larger and heavier DMX line.

What was being referred to is if you are only planning on using DMX and not switching to another protocol in the near future to connect nodes and other things around the space then go with the standard 5 pin DMX connections otherwise use the cat5 to the boxes on stage or wherever you would like them and terminate with the DMX 5 pin connector. 

This would give you the ability to change the connection on the plate without having to run a different cable type.


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## derekleffew (Mar 26, 2011)

The adapters sold by ProdAdv are available female RJ45 to... male or female, XLR3 or 5. The pictures on the site may not be accurate.

I didn't have anything specific in mind re: the AC to the opto--just that it's one additional possible point of failure.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

EDIT:

FlashBang said:


> ...so can I terminate the data stream RJ45-F and buy a connector that's RJ45-M to XLR?
> 
> Or would it be advisable to run the data to a RJ45-M end, attach the connector, and have the XLR connector end sunk into the wall?(This seems like asking for those impossible to find malfunctions)


Use a female RJ45 wall plate, a standard male-male CAT5 cable, and the female RJ45-A5F adapter. Alternately, LEX Products makes a male RJ45-A5F adapter. Care must be taken to label everything as "DMX over CAT5", lest someone confuse them as an Ethernet connection, DMX over Ethernet, ACN, sACN, Art-Net, or who knows what else.
*OR...*
Even better, use a female XLR5 wall plate, specifically designed for CAT5 termination: see this thread (which happens to link you back to the ETC document you referenced in post#11).

Since it will likely come up, use the ESTA/PLASA ANSI E1.27-2 - 2009 pinout and specs for your CAT5 and DMX cabling: http://www.pathwayconnect.com/content/view/91/26/ and/or http://www.etcconnect.com/Community/wikis/products/knowledgebase-dmx-over-cat-5.aspx .

From http://www.etcconnect.com/community/wikis/products/dmx.aspx :

> In some cases, most frequently used in Europe, RJ45 connectors are used for DMX. These should only be used in patch panel type scenarios; most RJ45 connectors are not rugged enough to be used in the field for data connections. They are very sensitive to the ingress of dust, and are also mechanically weak.


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## icewolf08 (Mar 27, 2011)

Here is what I see in this thread. There are a lot of people throwing around a lot of ideas based on inadequate information. So, let's go back to the beginning for a minute.

IIRC, the L86 rack does not take a network input, it takes straight up DMX. It stands to reason that given the age of the technology it was not installed with CAT5 wiring. The cable may look like Cat5 on the outside, but odds are it is not. This should be confirmed before we get tangled up in dealing with adapting Cat5 for use as DMX.

Also given the age of the racks it stands to reason that as people have speculated, the DMX ports around the venue were intended as inputs. Since there doesn't seem to be any splitters or merge devices, it is most likely: A) a typical poorly laid out installation that was done in many schools, and B) a lot more hassle than it is worth. Odds are behind at least one of those data drops you have DMX wiring that is effectively "Y-ed" together which is not really spec compliant. While in all likelyhood you could probably use one or more of those ports to feed data to devices, it might work (probably would), yet since it doesn't follow spec, it may fail at any time or produce undesirable results.

What would be the best thing to do is to either find the "as-built" drawings of the space and see how the wiring is laid out. If you can't get those, just open up the j-boxes with the DMX jacks and see how it is wired. Odds are to save money, you have one run that "daisy chains" from port to port. ON the other hand, if you were lucky, each port could have a home run back to the dimmer room and all be common-ed together in one place (this would be ideal, but it seems unlikely). In the latter case of the multiple home runs, if you can find where they terminate, you could build a patch bay put your splitter there. In the case of the former "daisy chain" setup (far more likely), you could pick one of the ports (preferably the first one after the booth), open it up, take the line from the booth as the input to a splitter and then plug the continuation of the line into one of the outputs.

All that being said, when you look at splitters, you should get one that conforms to the DMX standard. So get something with XLR-5 in and out. If you want you can get one that has both XLR-3 and XLR-5 ins and outs, as this may mean you won't need as many adapters if you use gear that has 3 pin jacks. DOn't get anything that doesn't conform to spec. So that means don't get a splitter that is Cat5 or that is only XLR-3, it will just be a headache and require extra parts and adapters.

Depending on the layout of your venue you may want to consider adding a DMX splitter that lives on the grid. This way you don't have to lift cables up every time you hang fixtures that need data. This may be a useful place to run a brand new DMX line to from the booth. Just something to think about.


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## starksk (Mar 28, 2011)

Thank you icewolf08. You are correct that L86 racks do not listen to modern network protocols by themselves and do only listen to DMX. Depending on the type of control modules FlashBang has in the rack, they may or may not have an XLR connector on them. As it appears that these are installation racks, it is likely they do not. This means that the DMX lands in the rack, goes through either an EMAR or EMR and then passes to an EMI3M to be distributed to each phase's controller.

From the system descriptions thus far in the thread, it would appear that this system was designed as an input only system. That means that each input plate is daisy chained back to the rack. (i.e.: Input 1-->Input 2-->Input 3-->L86 Rack.) Without a merger, it is unlikely that each run of DMX is "home runned" back to the rack or other central location. icewolf08 commented that this was "a typical poorly laid out installation". I would contend that this statement is only 50% accurate. It is a typical layout. However, remember that at the time this system was designed and/or installed, the need to control more than dimming racks via DMX was an uncommon occurence for most users. The consultant or designer wanted to ensure that the end user could move the console where they may need to run the show, but since DMX devices may not have been common or intended to be used, they, either intentionally or through value engineering, did not provide for such a control architecture that is common today.

FlashBang, what does this mean to you? It means that the solution is to either add your opto-splitter inline before the DMX terminates in the rack, or better yet, run a seperate line from a second port on your console to the opto-splitter. If you do go with the opto inline, ETC recommends that you have a qualified technician do any needed termination wiring within the rack. In this case, "qualified technician" would be defined as an ETC authorized service technician. If you would like to have us look up to see if we have a copy of your system layout and/or as-built drawings, please give us a call at 800-688-4116.

Another thing to keep in mind is the choice of opto-splitter. If you are inserting this unit inline, you will either need to terminate to the appropriate connectors, or use an opto that has terminal blocks instead of connectors. I would second icewolf08's comments that to avoid future headaches, you should use an opto that conforms to the DMX standard 5-pin XLR if you go with a connectorized version.

An alternative to the opto-splitter route, since you mentioned that you are moving to an Element console in the future, you may wish to look at adding a lighting ethernet network in your space and using ethernet to DMX nodes to achieve your data distribution goals. While initially more expensive to install, ethernet systems provide an additional level of flexibility and it sounds like your staff are already qualified to install such a system.


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## FlashBang (Mar 28, 2011)

Thank you for the info Kirk.

For the nodes, let me see if I can get the data stream correctly.

BOARD UNIVERSE 1&2------DMX--->NODE INPUTS 1&2
NODE OUTPUT---------------CAT5--->ETHERNET PORT (CONTROLBOOTH)
ETHERNET PORT(STAGE)---CAT5--->NODE ON STAGE
NODE ON STAGE------------DMX---->ONE TO DIMMER RACK, ONE TO 1ST DMX DEVICE

Realistically, I'd want a port in the electrical room for a rack node and ports on SL / SR for device nodes.

Is that how it would work?


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## starksk (Mar 28, 2011)

That basic flow is correct with the exception that you will want an ethernet switch between the two ethernet ports you have diagramed. An ethernet switch is required to help "direct traffic" between different ports. Your ports SL/SR and in your electrical room as well as the control booth port would all connect to your ethernet switch. 

Ethernet uses a star topology for wiring. That means that all of the different ports run back to one location (where the switch is placed).

Also, it should be noted that when you switch to your Element console, it can connect directly to the ethernet network without the use of an input node.


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## FlashBang (Mar 28, 2011)

So,

BOARD--ETHERNET--->SWITCH
SWITCH--ETHERNET-->NODES
NODES----DMX-------->RACK/DEVICES

Thanks so much for the ongoing help.


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## starksk (Mar 28, 2011)

You got it!

Remember that proper Cat 5/5e/6/7.... wiring per the standards requires female connections for permanent installations and the use of male to male patch cables to connect ports together. This is why wall plates for a Cat 5/5e/6/7 system use female connectors and why there is a patch panel near most switches.


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## FlashBang (Mar 28, 2011)

Or, how I figure the best way to inexpenively integrate an optosplitter:

Avoid rewiring the DMX into the dimmer rack by breaking into the DMX chain after it leaves the second-to-last in the series of console inputs (this is at SL. the last is immediately beside the dimmer rack and very difficult to reach / work with)

Route the signal to the optosplitter input.

Send an output down the original line.

Have the remaining outputs run DMX to devices.


EDIT: But the node route is looking much cleaner and more expandable


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## icewolf08 (Mar 28, 2011)

FlashBang said:


> Or, how I figure the best way to inexpenively integrate an optosplitter:
> 
> Avoid rewiring the DMX into the dimmer rack by breaking into the DMX chain after it leaves the second-to-last in the series of console inputs (this is at SL. the last is immediately beside the dimmer rack and very difficult to reach / work with)
> 
> ...



Yup, that about sums it up. The node route is more expandable in the future, but if you are strapped for cash now, you may be able to roll the network infrastructure into the bid for your new console whenever you do that. Putting in a splitter now will get you up and going fast without having to lay new wiring down everywhere.


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## FlashBang (Mar 29, 2011)

The ETC products page describes devices like this and calls them all gateways. Is this a different device, or just another name?

Can someone direct me to the node I want?


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## derekleffew (Mar 29, 2011)

FlashBang said:


> ...EDIT: But the node route is looking much cleaner and more expandable


Yes, much cleaner and more expandable, but also significantly more expensive. The cost of one Net3 One Port Gateway is roughly the cost of a very high-quality, five-output opto-splitter.

"Node" and "Net3 Gateway" are synonymous in this case.

FlashBang said:


> ... Can someone direct me to the node I want?


Do you want one, two, or four ports per device?


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## FlashBang (Mar 29, 2011)

OK, so I'm asking for a quote on 2x Net3 Gateway 2-port. One for rear SL one for front SR to have easier distribution. 

Question though, if I'm running my Element through a Net3 ethernet connection, can I use my existing DMX line as well out of one DMX universe? (to avoid needing a gateway at my dimmer rack)


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## FlashBang (Mar 29, 2011)

starksk said:


> You got it!
> 
> Remember that proper Cat 5/5e/6/7.... wiring per the standards requires female connections for permanent installations and the use of male to male patch cables to connect ports together. This is why wall plates for a Cat 5/5e/6/7 system use female connectors and why there is a patch panel near most switches.


 
So if I've got to have a female jack, I assume I should have the jack installed high up, with ethernet running down to the unit (still at height of my LX) to avoid any accidental damage to cables?

Then run the DMX out to the closest batten, leaving enough slack for the batten to be lowered to working height.


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## starksk (Mar 29, 2011)

FlashBang said:


> Question though, if I'm running my Element through a Net3 ethernet connection, can I use my existing DMX line as well out of one DMX universe? (to avoid needing a gateway at my dimmer rack)



Yes you can use both the built in DMX connector and the network output to your gateways. 


FlashBang said:


> So if I've got to have a female jack, I assume I should have the jack installed high up, with ethernet running down to the unit (still at height of my LX) to avoid any accidental damage to cables?
> 
> Then run the DMX out to the closest batten, leaving enough slack for the batten to be lowered to working height.


 
I will let others comment on the proper placement of net taps. Everybody seems to have their own opinion as to the "best" placement.


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## icewolf08 (Mar 29, 2011)

FlashBang said:


> So if I've got to have a female jack, I assume I should have the jack installed high up, with ethernet running down to the unit (still at height of my LX) to avoid any accidental damage to cables?
> 
> Then run the DMX out to the closest batten, leaving enough slack for the batten to be lowered to working height.



Personally, if you are going to be running new network cable (mind you, you shouldn't use existing network infrastructure if you have an existing network in the building. You want a network dedicated to lighting ONLY) I would run it up to a switch on the grid. Then get some heavier duty network cable and drop from that switch to the battens where you need data. Get the portable nodes and rig them so you can just attach them to the battens. Then you can attach them where you need them and you don't have to worry about lifting cable from the deck. In addition to this I would run network from the booth to both sides of the stage and to your dimmer room. Attached is a flow diagram of what I mean.

​


I work with a system like this and I still have need for multiple opto-splitters. They are cheaper than nodes and can be very convenient.


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## FlashBang (Mar 29, 2011)

icewolf08 said:


> Personally, if you are going to be running new network cable (mind you, you shouldn't use existing network infrastructure if you have an existing network in the building. You want a network dedicated to lighting ONLY) I would run it up to a switch on the grid. Then get some heavier duty network cable and drop from that switch to the battens where you need data. Get the portable nodes and rig them so you can just attach them to the battens. Then you can attach them where you need them and you don't have to worry about lifting cable from the deck. In addition to this I would run network from the booth to both sides of the stage and to your dimmer room. Attached is a flow diagram of what I mean.
> View attachment 4730​
> 
> 
> I work with a system like this and I still have need for multiple opto-splitters. They are cheaper than nodes and can be very convenient.


 

The school I work in has an existing network with 4 switch rooms. If I can reserve space on these large-scale switches to be dedicated to the auditorium lighting system, is that enough to avoid problems?

I'm partial to going this route because I am not personally given many work-hours for auditorium related work. If I simply need my network guys to install jacks and configure a switch, I can get this system up and running with ease. Otherwise, the units will sit in my office for weeks or months until being put to use.

From my understanding, you can put up to 32 (to avoid problems more like 25) devices on each DMX chain. I have 3 LX battens on stage. With two nodes, total 4 outputs, I just need to provide a permanent slack line running to each LX where I can tap into DMX as neccesary.

The only part of this setup that isn't exactly "clean" is the slack line, but I've already got one per batten per side for my dimmer boxes, so it's a case of simply running the DMX along there.


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## DuckJordan (Mar 29, 2011)

FlashBang said:


> The school I work in has an existing network with 4 switch rooms. If I can reserve space on these large-scale switches to be dedicated to the auditorium lighting system, is that enough to avoid problems?
> 
> I'm partial to going this route because I am not personally given many work-hours for auditorium related work. If I simply need my network guys to install jacks and configure a switch, I can get this system up and running with ease. Otherwise, the units will sit in my office for weeks or months until being put to use.
> 
> ...



Short answer is no. You want it completely on its own system with no possibility of being accidentally put with others. Just like some strong security servers, lighting equipment should always be on its own closed network.


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## sk8rsdad (Mar 29, 2011)

Second best option is to have your IT people put it on a dedicated VLAN, assuming they are using managed switches.


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## MNicolai (Mar 29, 2011)

FlashBang said:


> The school I work in has an existing network with 4 switch rooms. If I can reserve space on these large-scale switches to be dedicated to the auditorium lighting system, is that enough to avoid problems?
> 
> I'm partial to going this route because I am not personally given many work-hours for auditorium related work. If I simply need my network guys to install jacks and configure a switch, I can get this system up and running with ease. Otherwise, the units will sit in my office for weeks or months until being put to use.
> 
> ...


 
I'd advise switchgear dedicated for just your theatre network and avoiding their existing switches -- wherever the switch itself is located is arbitrary so long as you can get all of your network cables there. You want a big enough switch that you've got some spare ports you can add a few CAT5 lines without having to buy another switch, but you don't need an $800 switch if you're only look for a dozen ports. If not a dedicated switch, at least a dedicated VLAN, but you may find it's more trouble to route networking cables to one of the existing switch rooms than it is to just add a switch to your control room or dimmer room.

What I've done at our facility is piggybacked our ETC Net3 lighting network with our LS9 audio mixer (as ETC will tell you, this is something to be done at your own risk because not all network traffic is friendly -- that's not to say our LS9 is going to hand our Congo a virus, but the larger number of devices increases the odds of a duplicate IP or other network problems). Now anywhere in the theatre via a network cables or our private WiFi, anyone with the passwords and necessary software on their laptops can:

+ Login as a client to our Congo and Congo Jr. lighting consoles (and use universal fader wings and master playback wings remotely with their laptops)
+ Login to our dimming racks' CEM+ modules to view settings of our dimmer racks and perform dimmer checks
+ Control our LS9 audio mixer via Yamaha's Studio Manager software

I also enjoy using the WiFi to use my iPhone as an iRFR.

What our IT dept. liked about this is that they _never_ have to worry about any part of our network. Any questions about the Net3 gateways, consoles, or dimming systems get fielded to ETC; any questions about the LS9 get fielded to Yamaha (or CB as I've learned is more reliable), and we never have to fight over permissions, network access, or internet privileges (in exchange, our private theatre network is not connected to the internet, but that's worth never having to fighting with IT about which applications we can or cannot install on a PC). IT even gave us a free laptop to use as a client PC for Congo.

I "fixed" the internet access issue then by getting tethering added to my iPhone plan, so I have access to the private theatre network and the internet anywhere in the theatre without having to butt heads with someone from IT every time I want to download, install, update, or change anything.


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## FlashBang (Mar 29, 2011)

**First off, I hope my constant replies of "Ya....But..." don't come across as stubborn. I am taking all of your comments into account, and just trying to expose any and all problems that may occur.**

The department within which I spend the majority of my work hours is an extension of IT, so the network guys play nice with me  I don't foresee any problems with permissions, access or privileges. 

The guys just ran 4 ports in 2 locations for ethernet in the auditorium. They were done within an hour, so I'm guessing the cable route isn't too much of a pain. A dedicated VLAN for the auditorium is no problem, nor is there a possibility that I'll run out of available ports on their switch. There is no realistic situation where someone may "accidentally" patch my devices in as computers needing internet.

That being said, I do like icewolf's layout, and having the auditorium run stand-alone would be nice. I will present icewolf and MNicolai's ideas to my Director IT and see what he says. I have a feeling though, unless I push heavily for the stand-alone system he will prefer the existing switch option (the really don't like anything network related outside of their hands).


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## starksk (Mar 29, 2011)

A word about VLANs:

Lighting network traffic is a virutally constant stream of data going somewhere. Most of the time it is from the console to the output devices, but often it can also be from client and remotes coming back to the console. If you must share a network switch, it needs to be configurable to allow multicast traffic within your VLAN. The crux of sACN (and many other protocols) is the use of multicast addresses that are broadcast to by the sending device(s) and subscribed to by the listening device(s). Also, because of the nature of the traffic going across the wire, you will want to disable IGMP (Internet Group Management Protocol) for the ports in your VLAN to protect against the switch thinking you are trying to create a network storm because the console just keeps talking. Along those same lines, many people find that they also need to disable Spanning Tree for the ports in their VLAN as well. (ETC configured switches have IGMP and Spanning Tree turned off by default).

Be aware that you will be using protocols such as DHCP, SNTP, and TFTP on your VLAN so making sure that it is truly isolated from the rest of your corporate network is essential. 

In short, VLANing is possible, but the best way to avoid network problems is to have a dedicated lighting network.

Good Luck and Happy Programming!


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## DuckJordan (Mar 29, 2011)

FlashBang said:


> **First off, I hope my constant replies of "Ya....But..." don't come across as stubborn. I am taking all of your comments into account, and just trying to expose any and all problems that may occur.**
> 
> The department within which I spend the majority of my work hours is an extension of IT, so the network guys play nice with me  I don't foresee any problems with permissions, access or privileges.
> 
> ...


 

Then let them be in control of it but make sure that its all on its own. One thing that has helped me in the past is tell them how much the console and equipment costs and how finicky it can be with devices such as computers and other open devices. Explain it to him in a way that if he had all his credit cards and bank info on a server if he would attach it to the internet with nothing but the basic windows firewall enabled if he would allow it to be attached to anything but its own network.

One thing to really stress is that it would be a show critical network meaning it needs to work 100% of the time. Yes it can sometimes fail but generally when it fails the show is done. It can be in that IT closet but it needs to be on its own system and it needs to be labeled extremely well to not connect anything unless its pre approved by both you and your IT boss. 

I see no problem with allowing the IT guys have it with the rest of their equipment as long as they are the only ones with access and know exactly what to do and what not to do.


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## derekleffew (Mar 30, 2011)

Another thing to discuss with your IT department:
It's very convenient to use a switch that provides POE to your nodes, so that you don't have to use an external power supply or worry about providing power to the nodes.


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## icewolf08 (Mar 30, 2011)

Here is one of my big concerns with letting the IT department get too involved. First off, in this case you definitely want dedicated hardware. In the grand scheme of things, the network infrastructure for this project is a minor expense. Then, even if they do set you up with your own switch in their rack, do you have access to it? You need to have direct access to every piece of gear that you deploy for your lighting system at all times that it is in use. In the event of a problem, you need to be able to get to things. Sometimes all you might need to do is power cycle a device, but you need access to it to do that. Thusly, if you were sharing a switch with some other part of the building and had to power cycle it, you cut off the rest of the building as well.

If you wanted to spend a little more money, you could get yourself a small rack box and some rack-mount gear for your network distros. Include a UPS, a rack-mount switch, and maybe even a rack-mount DMX node. You could set up a box like this that could live on the grid, but it could be portable enough that you can move it where you need if you need it elsewhere for a show.

I say all this stuff having dealt with some pretty serious lighting network issues at my theatre over the past two years. Because of that, I would recommend that you run hardline DMX to any place where you have show critical gear. Even though I have network and nodes that feed data around the theatre, I still have hard DMX lines that run to the dimmers and to my primary DMX splitters. In the event of a network failure, I can be up and running in less than 5 minutes by switching over some cabling. It has saved at least one show this season.


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## FlashBang (Mar 30, 2011)

Thanks for the continued help everyone!


icewolf08 said:


> In the grand scheme of things, the network infrastructure for this project is a minor expense.
> 
> If you wanted to spend a little more money, you could get yourself a small rack box and some rack-mount gear for your network distros. Include a UPS, a rack-mount switch, and maybe even a rack-mount DMX node.


 
The thing is that I cannot dedicate work hours to the actual installation of this system. If I opt for my own isolated network, I will likely have to hire someone to install (which becomes more than a small expense). If I use the school's network I can simply place a work order internally. 

If I can fight through the bureaucracy and have the isolated system done internally - that will be the route I go. Otherwise, pending the IT Director's confirmation that all the settings can indeed be configured as indicated above - I believe I will be opting to use an existing switch.

Thanks so much for the help guys! I guess the "quick" part of the thread title was not so accurate, and I appreciate your sticking with me. Any last warnings, support or additional information is more than welcome.


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## MNicolai (Mar 30, 2011)

FlashBang said:


> Thanks for the continued help everyone!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If you're using an existing switch, better let your IT guys know you might need to call them at 9pm on a Saturday night with emergency tech support questions (they'll love you for that) -- if things stop working because of network problems, you aren't really in a position to troubleshoot them if/when there are conflicts.


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