# Stage Monitor Solutions



## CBR372 (Dec 12, 2012)

Hey guys, 

So in my new venue (1200 seat Performing arts music hall {not a proscenium}) we do a couple events each year where we have a power point presentation by a college dean or president. With these presentations the projection screen is behind the presenter being hit by a projector about 45 degrees SR on the 1st balcony in a box seat. We run from a laptop to a VGA-> Ethernet box then translate it back to VGA at the projector.

However with these events we want to be able to add small monitors onstage so that the presenter can see where he or she is without having to turn around. But here's the kicker, we want to avoid running cable through the house.

Now I would not be opposed to moving the location of the laptop (currently at the FOH sound position) to maybe offstage right then getting a splitter and send one signal to the projector and the other to a monitor, I was just wondering if there is a more elegant solution I am just not aware of. Budget is a concern however I would rather find a good solution and then figure out prices later. 

I always think of TED talks when I think of this. Does anyone know how they do their onstage monitors?

As always thanks for any help!


----------



## dbaxter (Dec 12, 2012)

If you have another laptop for the podium, is a wi-fi connection between the main computer and the podium one an option? If so, I can tell you how to use Cue Player to do the job.


CBR372 said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> So in my new venue (1200 seat Performing arts music hall {not a proscenium}) we do a couple events each year where we have a power point presentation by a college dean or president. With these presentations the projection screen is behind the presenter being hit by a projector about 45 degrees SR on the 1st balcony in a box seat. We run from a laptop to a VGA-> Ethernet box then translate it back to VGA at the projector.
> 
> ...


----------



## cpf (Dec 12, 2012)

dbaxter said:


> If you have another laptop for the podium, is a wi-fi connection between the main computer and the podium one an option? If so, I can tell you how to use Cue Player to do the job.



The non-proprietary edition of this would be to install a VNC server (RealVNC Server is good, and free) on the presentation laptop and a VNC Viewer (again, RealVNC Viewer) on another computer at stage level. This way, whatever's on the screen of the presentation laptop will show up on the stage-level laptop (albeit with a slight delay), which can then be put onto your monitors. This would be the most reliable if there's a wired network connection at both ends, but WiFi will work too. 

Either way, just be sure to test, test, test. Have a backup plan, too, e.g. put a copy of the presentation onto the stage laptop and assign someone to keep it in sync. In fact, that's probably the most elegant solution right there, if you have people to spare...


----------



## dbaxter (Dec 12, 2012)

That reminds me of another possibly free solution - TeamViewer could also be setup between two laptops. Would have to read the fine print to see if you qualify for using the free version.


cpf said:


> The non-proprietary edition of this would be to install a VNC server (RealVNC Server is good, and free) on the presentation laptop and a VNC Viewer (again, RealVNC Viewer) on another computer at stage level. This way, whatever's on the screen of the presentation laptop will show up on the stage-level laptop (albeit with a slight delay), which can then be put onto your monitors. This would be the most reliable if there's a wired network connection at both ends, but WiFi will work too.
> 
> Either way, just be sure to test, test, test. Have a backup plan, too, e.g. put a copy of the presentation onto the stage laptop and assign someone to keep it in sync. In fact, that's probably the most elegant solution right there, if you have people to spare...


----------



## CBR372 (Dec 12, 2012)

So if I set up a wireless network on my mac and use that as the monitor (or use the video out to fee the monitor) then put the server VNC on the presentation PC will I be able to but a viewer on my mac (Is there a cross-platform VNC solution?)


----------



## cpf (Dec 12, 2012)

DBaxter raises a good point - RealVNC Free is out because this isn't "personal use." TightVNC, however, is completely free in all cases. 

OS X has a built-in VNC client, just open Finder, press Command-K (or open Go->Connect to Server) then enter vnc://ip-of-server

If I had my choice of wireless access points, a laptop would not be high on the list. Easier and better to get a dedicated router.


----------



## derekleffew (Dec 12, 2012)

CBR372 said:


> ...However with these events we want to be able to add small monitors onstage so that the presenter can see where he or she is without having to turn around. ...


In other words, confidence monitors.
.


----------



## museav (Dec 13, 2012)

CBR372 said:


> With these presentations the projection screen is behind the presenter being hit by a projector about 45 degrees SR on the 1st balcony in a box seat. We run from a laptop to a VGA-> Ethernet box then translate it back to VGA at the projector.
> 
> However with these events we want to be able to add small monitors onstage so that the presenter can see where he or she is without having to turn around. But here's the kicker, we want to avoid running cable through the house.
> 
> Now I would not be opposed to moving the location of the laptop (currently at the FOH sound position) to maybe offstage right then getting a splitter and send one signal to the projector and the other to a monitor, I was just wondering if there is a more elegant solution I am just not aware of.


Perhaps I'm misunderstanding but if you apparently have a way to get from FOH to the projector and could get cabling from the projector to the stage right wing and from there to the confidence monitors, then doesn't that define a potential path from FOH to the confidence monitors?

Just to verify it is not more complex, is a single laptop the only potential source to the projector and confidence monitors? And do you want to always have the same image on both the projector and the confidence monitors?

And on a detail, is it actually a VGA-to-Ethernet/IP box or is it VGA-over-UTP/CAT? Those are two different methods of distribution and which it is could affect the potential options especially if you already have network connectivity near or on the stage.


----------



## CBR372 (Dec 13, 2012)

museav- It is a VGA-over-UTP/CAT box. What I was saying about the wing is that we could move the whole system to the wing, however then we would have to add another operator. As of right now we are only dealing with a single source. As for the networking I am not exactly sure how they have this building networked (the lighting network, sound network, or any other network that may be in here is not clearly labeled) But I will be having someone show me how EXACTLY they setup the projector in terms of getting the signal to the projector.


----------



## museav (Dec 14, 2012)

CBR372 said:


> museav- It is a VGA-over-UTP/CAT box. What I was saying about the wing is that we could move the whole system to the wing, however then we would have to add another operator.


And what I was suggesting is that if you have a signal to the projector and a cable path from there to the stage and you are always displaying the same image on the projector and confidence monitors then might it be possible to put a VGA DA at the projector and take one output, or a loop through input, to the projector and another output to the stage?


----------



## chaostic (Dec 14, 2012)

I am focusing on two parts of your request.
1) You said cheap
2) You want a solution that's wireless. 
I saw several suggestions for using VNC.

This would be my suggestion. Add VNC Server to the master/presenter laptop (there are several freely available depending on your licensing requirements) and then pick up an Android tablet of your choice. 

Have the android tablet use a VNC client to slave to the laptop running the presentation and feeding the projector. Now they can see the presentation by looking down at the screen at anytime and potentially control the slides themselves.
If you want to get really cheap just pickup some old used Android phones and hack away. 
Android tablets go for $50-$200 and could potentially be used a plethora of ways.


My alternate suggestion is as follows:
Any wireless VGA solution (and a I looked at several) is $100-$200 at least and a has a range of 30ft. 

But I have to question of why you are asking more of your computing/video solution than you do of any other system in your facility. Lights are not wireless. Wireless microphone's are used on occasion but running gaff tape to cover microphone cable has been accepted for quite awhile. Even though your lighting console is a glorified remote control it has a cable. Do you use wireless headsets?

Why not just pick up a VGA splitter ($30-$50 dollars) and another one of your VGA-Over-UTP/Cat box so you just need to run a cat 5 cable. Sturdy. Tested. (I suspect the VGA-Over-UTP/Cat box has been stable for you. )

If you really want to make it easy on yourself put the entire rig in the podium, have them hook up their laptop to the VGA and power so you can wash your hands of the entire thing. Most folks are comfortable handling their own equipment. Then they have the laptop in front of themselves and the projector shares it to everyone else. If you want to go the extra mile add in a 1/8th inch audio jack so they can share their audio if they so choose. 

To let you off the hook I have seen many a TED Talk, and several times the presenter will crane over their shoulder or stand sideways to the audience so they can see the screen. Specially on a wide open stage or proscenium when they just can't look stage left or right to see a monitor. There are no good solutions here.
To be fair to yourself you should also look at the presenter as the director. Provide alternatives and solutions, but don't get stuck that it has to be rigged "one way". In the end it's up to the presenter and their level (or lack there of) of showmanship to decide what solution will work best. 

TL;DR - Use VNC Server on the laptop to allow Android VNC Client to see(or control). Ditch wireless VGA (unworkable/untrusted) and use a cable solution with another VGA-over-UTP/Catbox and a VGA Splitter.

-Andrew

P.S.
VGA is going away. Most major chipset manufacturers will end support by 2015. May want to read up on DisplayPort or HDMI. VNC May be the better choice since it's not based on a changing hardware spec.


----------



## CBR372 (Dec 14, 2012)

So I think I figured out a solution. What we do currently is run the Presentation from the FOH sound position into a VGA-Over-UTP/Cat box that then runs 5' to the booth and then plugs into an ethernet tie-lie that goes to a couple places on stage. Then from there we run 50' or less up to the fist balcony where the projector is located. So a solution may be to put a ethernet router right before the booth tie-lines (or after) and then buy another VGA-Over-UTP/Cat box and Voila. (Assuming one can route the VGA signal like any other network).

Also the problem with running a hardwire wasn't purely a preference for wireless, more that my boss did not want to run cable the 100' from FOH to the stage.

But I think you guys provided some excellent solutions for me to test out. I appreciate it!


----------



## FMEng (Dec 14, 2012)

CBR372 said:


> So I think I figured out a solution. What we do currently is run the Presentation from the FOH sound position into a VGA-Over-UTP/Cat box that then runs 5' to the booth and then plugs into an ethernet tie-lie that goes to a couple places on stage. Then from there we run 50' or less up to the fist balcony where the projector is located. So a solution may be to put a ethernet router right before the booth tie-lines (or after) and then buy another VGA-Over-UTP/Cat box and Voila. (Assuming one can route the VGA signal like any other network).
> 
> Also the problem with running a hardwire wasn't purely a preference for wireless, more that my boss did not want to run cable the 100' from FOH to the stage.
> 
> But I think you guys provided some excellent solutions for me to test out. I appreciate it!



That won't work. Just because the connector fits doesn't mean the signal is compatible. VGA over UTP is an analog signal that cannot pass through an ethernet device like a switch or router. Those devices can only pass digital IP signals. 

You could use a VGA distribution amplifier (DA) to split the signal at the computer, and send it in two directions, using a second pair of VGA over UTP boxes.


----------



## chaostic (Dec 14, 2012)

Hmmm.... I am curious to see how that works.

I would double check the specs for that VGA-Over-UTP/Cat. Just picking apart the name, VGA-Over-UTP means Unshielded Twisted Pair, not UDP or Ethernet(10Base 100 or 1GB Ethernet). If you look up the specs you may be able to split the pairs and punch them into a female connector (or male I guess) to split out the pairs. Even 10Base-100 doesn't use all of the pairs. You can sometimes run two ethernets over 1 run of CAT-5. but I don't think a router or hub will work for you. At guess it's not ethernet so it's not routing, it's using the copper pairs to move a wired signal, not route packets or ethernet data grams. Think of it like a speaker wire or mic cable...

The models I found online have senders,receivers, and repeaters and specify cable length. I didn't see any mention of using a hub or router.

It may not work with a hub or router. You will probably need another run of CAT5. The thought from the manufacturer is that you can just change the cable in the wiring closet or at the punch down block.

good luck!!!

-Andrew


----------



## Chris15 (Dec 14, 2012)

You will NOT get 2 VGA signals over a single piece of Catx.
Fundamentally, what's happening is that the coaxial 75 ohm signals are being converted to balanced 110 ohm signals and sent down a pair each for Red, Green and Blue. How the sync lines and things like DDC are handled varies between manufacturers, but almost all of them are pulling some tricks on that 4th pair to make it happen.

You can't use either a hub or a router for VGA over UTP, you can use a switcher (NOT a network switch), but it will NOT be cheap.

As to VGA going away, there is a reason why display port to VGA adapters exist and will continue to do so for a fairly long time to come.
Heck you can plug a dongle into Thunderbolt on a mac and get VGA out...
There are WAY too many installed systems using VGA that won't be changing for several years yet when all they need to do is powerpoint...


----------



## ruinexplorer (Dec 15, 2012)

If you have already made it to the stage with the signal, what about ending the UTP there, go into a VGA DA (like this), then run one VGA cable to the monitor and the other to the projector?


----------



## museav (Dec 15, 2012)

Chris15 said:


> You will NOT get 2 VGA signals over a single piece of Catx.
> Fundamentally, what's happening is that the coaxial 75 ohm signals are being converted to balanced 110 ohm signals and sent down a pair each for Red, Green and Blue. How the sync lines and things like DDC are handled varies between manufacturers, but almost all of them are pulling some tricks on that 4th pair to make it happen.


+1. This is widely misunderstood but basic video over twisted pair systems are simply adapting the physical wiring, using the twisted pairs rather than coax as in RGBHV cables or coax and twisted pairs as in VGA cables. They are not converting the analog signals to digital or data, they are simply allowing the use of twisted pair cable for the physical cabling. In fact the use of twisted pair (UTP/STP/CAT) cable for signals other than Ethernet signals is getting so common that one can no longer assume that any CAT/UTP/STP cable is 'network' cable and might be better to think of it simply as cable that could be carrying any of a number of signals and used for a variety of purposes.


Chris15 said:


> As to VGA going away, there is a reason why display port to VGA adapters exist and will continue to do so for a fairly long time to come.
> Heck you can plug a dongle into Thunderbolt on a mac and get VGA out...
> There are WAY too many installed systems using VGA that won't be changing for several years yet when all they need to do is powerpoint...


Totally agree here as well. This is an area where the consumer and commercial markets seem to conflict in their goals and I see a day coming where the rate of change in the technology and connectivity associated with personal/consumer products becomes impractical to support for installed systems. It's great to have ever improving technology and it may be feasible, and promoted by the manufacturers, for personal/consumer products to have a relatively limited practical life. However, the same does not hold true for facilities and installed systems where few people can afford to replace major installed systems every couple of years.

Where I foresee problems is that people increasingly want to be able to walk into a room and present from their personal electronics devices but those same people typically also want those devices to be as small and inexpensive as possible. Many personal/consumer electronics and technology products are commodity products where price is critical and thus the manufacturers can/will not incorporate backward compatibility or compatibility with professional systems and technologies unless it can be done for no cost or can be justified by increased sales. Similar for size, people want smaller devices but that can mean eliminating larger connectors and/or implementing new, smaller and often proprietary connectors.


----------



## ruinexplorer (Dec 15, 2012)

museav said:


> Where I foresee problems is that people increasingly want to be able to walk into a room and present from their personal electronics devices but those same people typically also want those devices to be as small and inexpensive as possible. Many personal/consumer electronics and technology products are commodity products where price is critical and thus the manufacturers can/will not incorporate backward compatibility or compatibility with professional systems and technologies unless it can be done for no cost or can be justified by increased sales. Similar for size, people want smaller devices but that can mean eliminating larger connectors and/or implementing new, smaller and often proprietary connectors.



Slight hi-jack. This is one of the things that drives me crazy in the other direction as well. I just purchased brand new, large-venue projectors with any number of inputs available (through user replaceable modules) and they did not choose to provide Displayport or (less in my opinion) Thunderbolt as options. Even still, it comes with Composite and S-Video. Really?

[/rant]


----------



## chaostic (Dec 16, 2012)

Unfortunately that's due to the economy of the high tech. If you don't have the pieces (chips and boards) then you don't make it. Displayport and Thunderbolt are still new, and possibly proprietary. 

Just wiki'd/google'd... Thunderbolt actually includes DisplayPort (and PCIexpress) developed by Apple/Intel. Displayport was developed by VESA. (Royalty free if wikipedia is to be believed).

I found the same oddness in low end androids. They didn't have USB per se. If they did have USB it wasn't for charging, they still used a small port for charging. I can only surmise it is because the cost of the chips that allowed for USB charging were too expensive for a $50 tablet. If you want to dig in, IMHO, you will find alot of the technology you use (projectors, laptops, cell phones) are based on 100-200 key chips or sensors that allow for the technology. Whether it's the number of mega pixels, FPS for video, or what inputs it may handle will be based on a certain key chip and its production cost.

I found alot of low cost LED projectors that were based on a USB interface. I am sure if I dug in it was because of a key chip that was cheaper using USB and software, rather than using the more expensive chip that allowed for direct input via Composite or HDMI.

It takes a while for those technologies to make it through the supply chain. The big move away from VGA is analog to digital. VGA is still analog. DVI and HDMI are digital. Displayport supports an embedded HDMI signal.

I spent 3 months hunting for OGG Vorbis support for my car head unit (Yup... I'm a geek) only to find it supported by one model of best buy head unit that was never documented but they happened to use a decoder chip that understands OGG vorbis as well as MP3 and WMA.

Just my two cents.

Happy hunting!

Still interested in the answer the original poster ends up using... ;-)

-Andrew


----------



## Chris15 (Dec 17, 2012)

Erm when you are paying the sorts of dollars that ruinexplorer would have been paying knowing his venue, production cost is no reason to not offer an option...


----------



## museav (Dec 17, 2012)

Chris15 said:


> Erm when you are paying the sorts of dollars that [user]ruinexplorer[/user] would have been paying knowing his venue, production cost is no reason to not offer an option...


It is also quite common on higher end projectors to have some common inputs and then have other input options.

My $0.02 worth, at some of the pro AV events and shows a few years ago people were talking about about HDMI likely being replaced by DisplayPort. However, DisplayPort did not rapidly displace HDMI as expected and people may still be reticent to integrate DisplayPort or Thunderbolt until related devices they are more prevalent and until there are other devices (routers, switchers, DAs, etc.) available to support them. The simple reality is that the pro AV world would probably prefer to have never had to deal with HDMI, DisplayPort or Thunderbolt, but they are what the consumer electronics world, and especially the computer industry, elected to use and we are stuck working with them.


----------



## CleverDream (Jan 8, 2013)

In our theater, we run our presentations off a Mac, back in the booth. Our "confidence monitor," a ~27" flatscreen mounted at an upward angle near the ground (awkward to describe, I'll try to get pics if anyone's interested,) (actually, it almost loos like a wedge audio monitor.) This is plugged into an Apple TV, connected to our facility wifi. (Secured, of course!) When we run a PowerPoint (or Keynote, etc) we just use AirPlay screen mirroring on the mac to the Apple TV. This way, the presenter can ever see the "presenter view" we can see back on the mac in the booth as well! This seems to really work well for our purposes!


----------



## CBR372 (Jan 12, 2013)

What we ended up doing for now (In planning stages of an A/V upgrade) is putting some free software (join.me) on the presentation computer and then on an iPad. Powerpoint slides look great, video playback... ehh not so great.


----------



## lwinters630 (Jan 12, 2013)

In our venue I have a computer in the booth with a DA that sends VGA to a switcher. and a second VGA w/stereo jack off stage so a presenter can bring his own laptop to the podium. The off stage jack goes to a box (name escapes me) that has a monitor out port and sends it via cat5 (200') back to the booth to another box and to the switcher. Switcher then goes to the projector (long throw in the BOH booth). 

Therefore I can run video from booth or the stage by pushing a button on the switcher. This allows the presenter to control their own powerpoint (or whatever) or me to run everything from the booth. I could also run a monitor from the off stage box to a flat panel at a FOH floor position.


----------



## AlexDonkle (Jan 26, 2013)

chaostic said:


> Unfortunately that's due to the economy of the high tech. If you don't have the pieces (chips and boards) then you don't make it. Displayport and Thunderbolt are still new, and possibly proprietary.
> 
> Just wiki'd/google'd... Thunderbolt actually includes DisplayPort (and PCIexpress) developed by Apple/Intel. Displayport was developed by VESA. (Royalty free if wikipedia is to be believed).



You are correct DisplayPort is an open standard with no royalties, but HDMI requires royalties to use (which I'm sure helps gives them the resources to keep pushing it onto everyone else). Both technologies are built on TMDS which is why adapters between the two aren't too expensive (granted DP carries much more data, and can carry 4, 1900x1200 video streams on one cable). 

Personally I don't see thunderbolt making its way into much pro AV gear. HDbaseT solves a lot of the HDMI issue people have been having, and eventually AVB (if they can ever finish the standard) could hopefully replace that as well.


----------

