# The Good Old Roll Drop Discussion - Again



## freddole (Apr 22, 2010)

Our community theatre will a roll drop system this summer. We plan to span 35'. The equipment will hang 22' above the stage. We are interested in talking with anyone who has attempted such a project before, and would like to hear of your missteps and successes. As we begin the engineering/design process, we would like to make as few mistakes as possible.

Thank you so much!

fred 
Lewiston Civic Theatre


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## Footer (Apr 22, 2010)

If you have done your searching, you should be in pretty good shape. Big thing is that the bottom pipe should be a solid pipe, at least 6" to 8" in diameter, and aluminum if possible. Also, be sure whatever you are rigging it to is solid. If your battens are hung with chain/cable it is not uncommon to chain each end of the batten to the SL/SR rails/wall/whatever. That will keep everything square. 

35' is a pretty big distance for this. You are REALLY going to have to dig hard to find a pipe that will do what you need. You should be able to have a guy on each end lift it and get less then an inch or two of deflection.


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## gafftaper (Apr 23, 2010)

As Footer said the topic has been pretty well covered. Search Roll Drop or Oleo. 

That's a REALLY big one. Don't even think about Wood, PVC, or Sonatube for that bottom roller. You'll have a HUGE sag in the middle. There's simply no way to properly do one that long and that's metal. I built one with a 20' curtain last year out of PVC with wood reinforcement inside. It sagged a good 3 feet at center. 35' forget it. As a result it's going to be seriously heavy.


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## Footer (Apr 23, 2010)

Give a call to your local steel supplier. See if they can not weld 2 or 3 sections of 8" aluminum pipe together. You might still have to put in some type of trussing inside to get the thing to be stiff. I would also suggest that on your control lines you hand at least enough counterweight to equal the weight of the pipe. You will be introducing more load into the overall system so make sure your rigging can support it. 

With the counterweights in place you will have a safer system in general. Instead of dead hauling all this weight it should be a bit more controlled. I have done 25' ones with aluminum pipe and I could barely get the drop up by myself. 35' will be very difficult without help.


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## jwl868 (Apr 23, 2010)

Footer:

Do you remember what schedule pipe you used? 8-inch Schedule 40 aluminum pipe weighs in at about 10 lb/foot.

Joe

(If one reviews tables for spans of pipe in this general diameter range, one will find that for steel, the maximum length is about 20 feet, and for plastic the maximum length is about 10.)


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## Footer (Apr 23, 2010)

jwl868 said:


> Footer:
> 
> Do you remember what schedule pipe you used? 8-inch Schedule 40 aluminum pipe weighs in at about 10 lb/foot.
> 
> ...



I have absolutely no clue. The pipe was already in the venue, and that venue is now halfway across the country from where I am at.


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## sk8rsdad (Apr 23, 2010)

jwl868 said:


> Footer:
> 
> Do you remember what schedule pipe you used? 8-inch Schedule 40 aluminum pipe weighs in at about 10 lb/foot.
> 
> ...



Google Books excerpts of Sammler's _Technical Design Solutions for Theatre_ suggests that schedule 10 aluminum is adequate for a 25' roller.


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## freddole (Apr 27, 2010)

Thank you, all who have replied. I appreciate this misc. info - especially the comments regarding the weight of Schedule 40 8" pipe. This is the material I think we are going to go with, along with internal reinforcement. Finding the material will be the next challenge, along with engineering the turning mechanism and the hanging. I do know the challenges presented by a painted 30+ foot drop! Power drive may be the way to go in our small venue.

fred


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## jneveaux (Jun 25, 2015)

freddole said:


> Our community theatre will a roll drop system this summer. We plan to span 35'. The equipment will hang 22' above the stage. We are interested in talking with anyone who has attempted such a project before, and would like to hear of your missteps and successes. As we begin the engineering/design process, we would like to make as few mistakes as possible.
> 
> Thank you so much!
> 
> ...



This is an older thread I realize but:
Has anyone heard of a reason to redline a rolldrop set up? My school venue (where my community theatre group performs in summer) had a consultant come in for other reasons and apparently he told them that the existing rolldrop rigging was "not code", which put them into a panic and they immediately removed the bottom roller (8" truss reinforced aluminum tubing bought from a stage supplier) and pulled the control lines. I can't get anyone to explain what "code" was at issue. Thoughts?


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## BillConnerFASTC (Jun 25, 2015)

Bottom roller roll drops are hard to make safe. Is this a manual rope tied to a clear? One operator slip and that roller tube dies damage. Code is probably not that right word. But still potentially a serious hazard.


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## jneveaux (Jun 26, 2015)

BillConnerASTC said:


> Bottom roller roll drops are hard to make safe. Is this a manual rope tied to a clear? One operator slip and that roller tube dies damage. Code is probably not that right word. But still potentially a serious hazard.


I get that. Yes it is a manual line tied off to a cleat. Couldn't the same be said for an out of weight counterweight arbor or a lighting instrument not hung properly? The energy potential is there for anything hanging overhead. Solution is not to stop hanging things, but to hang and train/operate them safely, isn't it?


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## jneveaux (Jun 26, 2015)

jneveaux said:


> I get that. Yes it is a manual line tied off to a cleat. Couldn't the same be said for an out of weight counterweight arbor or a lighting instrument not hung properly? The energy potential is there for anything hanging overhead. Solution is not to stop hanging things, but to hang and train/operate them safely, isn't it?


Bill, didn't meant to sound argumentative. The logic the school used just seems faulty. Thanks.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Jun 26, 2015)

jneveaux said:


> I get that. Yes it is a manual line tied off to a cleat. Couldn't the same be said for an out of weight counterweight arbor or a lighting instrument not hung properly? The energy potential is there for anything hanging overhead. Solution is not to stop hanging things, but to hang and train/operate them safely, isn't it?


If you only wanted to know if there is a code or standard that applies specifically to roll drops, I don't believe there is. It could be argued some of the PLASA standards could be applied. Also, I'm sure there are "standards if care" that could be referenced, like OSHA and general requirements for safe work spaces.

A lighting instrument clamped to a pipe should also have a safety cable and it doesn't move up and down on its own like the roller or batten. There should be very rare occasions when counterweight isvout of balance and fewer still when batten heavy, and don't allow people under it when out of balance. I spec orange cones and warning signs for those places where out if balance is likely (ie: no loading bridge). A bottom roller roll drop is always out of balance. A proper motorization or a manual counterweight system with rope lock would both make this safe. Rope on a cleat holding a load over heads is simply unacceptable in my opinion. Perhaps a redundant tie off and a strict policy of no one under while operating might be acceptable but too easy to be forgotten or abused.


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## Dionysus (Jun 27, 2015)

BillConnerASTC said:


> If you only wanted to know if there is a code or standard that applies specifically to roll drops, I don't believe there is. It could be argued some of the PLASA standards could be applied. Also, I'm sure there are "standards if care" that could be referenced, like OSHA and general requirements for safe work spaces.
> 
> A lighting instrument clamped to a pipe should also have a safety cable and it doesn't move up and down on its own like the roller or batten. There should be very rare occasions when counterweight isvout of balance and fewer still when batten heavy, and don't allow people under it when out of balance. I spec orange cones and warning signs for those places where out if balance is likely (ie: no loading bridge). A bottom roller roll drop is always out of balance. A proper motorization or a manual counterweight system with rope lock would both make this safe. Rope on a cleat holding a load over heads is simply unacceptable in my opinion. Perhaps a redundant tie off and a strict policy of no one under while operating might be acceptable but too easy to be forgotten or abused.



I agree completely with Bill, while not a "code" issue per-se this kind of drop is VERY dangerous. I have seen what can happen when one person makes a slight mistake or slip-up and the roller comes crashing down. As Bill said if it is rigged differently it would be much safer, while still dangerous.

The last time I did this kind of drop I stuck with plastic pipe as the roller (I think it was 2" or 3" PVC? It was a long time ago), to keep it as light as possible. It was not large enough to warrant a big heavy roller like the one you describe. Sufficed to say safety was still #1 when it was moving and the whole thing certainly weighed less than 50lbs, still a potential danger.


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## jneveaux (Jun 29, 2015)

Dionysus said:


> I agree completely with Bill, while not a "code" issue per-se this kind of drop is VERY dangerous. I have seen what can happen when one person makes a slight mistake or slip-up and the roller comes crashing down. As Bill said if it is rigged differently it would be much safer, while still dangerous.
> 
> The last time I did this kind of drop I stuck with plastic pipe as the roller (I think it was 2" or 3" PVC? It was a long time ago), to keep it as light as possible. It was not large enough to warrant a big heavy roller like the one you describe. Sufficed to say safety was still #1 when it was moving and the whole thing certainly weighed less than 50lbs, still a potential danger.



I appreciate the fuller perspective. Safety is the first priority, but as you note, there is no absolute. As technicians we try to find ways to make things work and work "relatively" safely.
I will pursue some other rigging alternative with an eye to having a better "lock-out" when the roll pipe is raised, combined with the existing protocols of spotting and marking the area.
Thanks again.


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## gafftaper (Jun 29, 2015)

jneveaux said:


> I get that. Yes it is a manual line tied off to a cleat. Couldn't the same be said for an out of weight counterweight arbor or a lighting instrument not hung properly?


 Not really. A properly used counterweight arbor should only be out of weight a carefully considered amount of weight and only for a limited amount of time during loading. The goal is to return it to balance as soon as possible. The goal of hanging a lighting instrument is to hang it safely so no one get's hurt. A Roll drop on the other hand is designed to always be poised on the edge of disaster. A roll drop is like a counterweight arbor, purposely put out of weight and left there while dependent on one fail point, the grip of the stage hand operating it. While your inspector is wrong to say it's a code violation, he's right to not wrong to underestimate its inherent danger. The last one I built weighed about 30 pounds and I wouldn't allow anyone else to operate it because I felt it was right on the edge of what I considered safe. 


jneveaux said:


> Solution is not to stop hanging things, but to hang and train/operate them safely, isn't it?


 No. Anytime you are doing overhead lifting, the solution is to seek the safest way possible to accomplish the task. Sometimes that does mean proper training but at other times it means removing the roll drop.

Finally, (No disrespect intended to you) but I want to point out the danger of discussing these things on the internet. Our comments here were all made without the ability to assess your knowledge and skills as a rigger, or seeing how your particular roll drop was designed and installed. You may be an outstanding rigger and the roll drop may have been built beautifully, and the person who shut it down may have been way out of line. Or you may not have enough rigging expertise to be able to properly assess if your roll drop was designed and built poorly. We have no way of knowing. Again please don't be offended by this it's just the reality of giving/getting advice on the internet. You have no idea if I'm a top Broadway Rigger with 30 years experience or a 12 year old girl from Dubuque. So should you listen to what I have to say?

... and before any of my smart mouthed friends here comment, I'm not a Broadway rigger or a 12 year old girl.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Jun 29, 2015)

jneveaux said:


> I appreciate the fuller perspective. Safety is the first priority, but as you note, there is no absolute. As technicians we try to find ways to make things work and work "relatively" safely.
> I will pursue some other rigging alternative with an eye to having a better "lock-out" when the roll pipe is raised, combined with the existing protocols of spotting and marking the area.
> Thanks again.



Raising and lowering things over people's heads, a stage being the only place this happens and is tolerated, needs to be safe, and if relatively safe, then relative to the rest of the world where there is no overhead lifting.


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