# Lifts



## legacy (Oct 24, 2007)

I am looking for a source for Hydralic cylinders that can be incorporated into a custom built lift to lift an actor up 6 feet. OR do they make such a thing that can be used for this effect. It needs to not be sluggish and take forever..... thanks


----------



## derekleffew (Oct 24, 2007)

Can't help you source what you need, but here's an article you may find interesting. In my opinion, lifting an actor 6' is best left to the professionals.

http://www.memagazine.org/backissues/april97/features/hydraul/hydraul.html


----------



## legacy (Oct 24, 2007)

No disrespect but I have been doing stuff like this for a long time. perhaps in an unsafe way thats why I am looking for a correct peice of equipment thanks for your concern from someone that has lifted an actor playing Jesus from the floor to 29 feet for 5 years now safly I will add


----------



## thebikingtechie (Oct 25, 2007)

I'm not at all pro, but my guess is the best way would just be a fly system, unless you actually need to see the platform raise.

I have never seen a fast hydraulic system. They all seem to crawl up.


----------



## avkid (Oct 25, 2007)

thebikingtechie said:


> I have never seen a fast hydraulic system. They all seem to crawl up.


Ever seen a clear elevator shaft with an Otis safety elevator?


----------



## Van (Oct 25, 2007)

avkid said:


> Ever seen a clear elevator shaft with an Otis safety elevator?


 
True that but those systems do take a heck of a lot of fluid pumped extremely quickly. 


Perhaps, Legacy, a 3'ft pnuematic ram, rigged with a double purchased cable/ chain system might be a quicker way to accomplish this? There are 6 ft hydraulic rams available, and you can get custom ones built by most any good tractor supply/repair place. If you're dead set on hydraulics you may want to try the 3 ft thing as well. a 6ft ram is going to get real expensive real quick, and be real unweildly. 
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/5Z370

Here's a link to a page on the grainger site. this is to a 38" ram with a 2500 psi capacity. But scroll through the rest of the grainger stuff , there might be something else.


----------



## legacy (Oct 25, 2007)

thanks guys, This effect is for the gospel according to scrooge where the second ghost will rise up through the floor. My first design was a counter weight driven cable pull with guides to keep it from swaying.. We have done this before for a different program, where the actor was brought up through the floor 11 feet up.. it worked but the pedistal was not needed to lock in place.. and was lowered back down with the actor on it in the dark. being able to secure the platform and make it level with the top is a little more challenging due to pullys etc. The main purpose of this for the illusion is we have another set under hidden by a painted scrim curtain.. and after the ghost is revealed they exit and come down stairs and within 3 mins from the reveal they open the curtain there should be nothing there thanks so far for your thoughts. it has to be kinda fast but I don't want to catapult the guy through the air either LOL


----------



## Footer (Oct 25, 2007)

You might also want to take a look at getting a scissor type lift that would fit into your plug. They do make small ones just for this type of thing, and they work extremely well because you don't have to worry about the leveling/guiding of the platform. Otherwise, doing guides and cabling it also works, but as you noted its not a rigid if it has to fill and stay in the plug.


----------



## avkid (Oct 25, 2007)

Locking it in place is not a huge deal.


----------



## BillESC (Oct 26, 2007)

If you have the understage space, look at Genie material lifts. The forks can be inverted which makes them higher than the mast. Frame them out with wood and you'll be good to go.


----------



## derekleffew (Oct 26, 2007)

BillESC said:


> ...look at Genie material lifts...


CAUTION. Material handling equipment is not designed or certified for elevating people. Not saying it won't work, just be aware you are intentionally misusing a product and prepare for much litigation should an injury or death occur.

There are rock-n-roll staging companies that rent elevators in all shapes and sizes. Here's two recommendations. (sorry, I couldn't think of one of the names until just now, or I would have posted this as soon as OP asked the question.)
http://www.bandrscenery.com/rentals/index.html
http://www.allaccessinc.com/html_files/rntstg.html#


----------



## BillESC (Oct 26, 2007)

You could use the Genie Personnal lift then but remove the bucket, buy a set of forks and go from there. It is the exact same unit just outfitted differently.


----------



## Logos (Oct 26, 2007)

Can I say that you guys live in a different world than I do. Most of what you've been discussing here would be totally not allowed here without qualified pro's doing it. Our equivalent of your OSHA would simply close you.


----------



## What Rigger? (Oct 27, 2007)

BillESC said:


> You could use the Genie Personnal lift then but remove the bucket, buy a set of forks and go from there. It is the exact same unit just outfitted differently.




Bill, I gotta agree with Tony, and I would love it if you could further illustrate what you are suggesting 'cause to my mind I can't think of a way to keep that legal/safe/under warranty. Am I gettin' it right: you're talking about modifying a Genie single man lift? I am completely curious. 

Then again, we may have moved into verboten territory, too.


----------



## BillESC (Oct 27, 2007)

Let me see if I can explain the concept.


I will assume there is an eight foot basement under the stage to work in. As you can see in this picture, the Genie lift has a pair of forks on which the load sits. These forks (in the picture) are under hung to the mount, they can also be over hung which makes them higher than the top mast section.
A framed wooden platform large enough for the person to stand on could be bolted to the forks. This platform could be cranked up to be perfectly even with the stage floor. The actor stands on the platform and at cue the stagehand in the basement cranks the stand up to desired height.
These lifts are designed to lift up to 1000 pounds to a height of 26'6". There is no modification and the machine is not being asked to do anything it is not designed to do. It simply lifts things straight up.


----------



## avkid (Oct 27, 2007)

That seems more reasonable.
The operator must be consistent and not jerk the lift all though.


----------



## derekleffew (Oct 27, 2007)

If the SLA works like the SuperTower and SuperLift, jerking is not an issue. Even the fastest "crank turner" probably cannot move the platform at a satisfactory speed. And I still say _material handling equipment_ IS NOT to be used to elevate _people__._

Here's a fun link: http://www.bandrscenery.com/rentals/lifts.html# Click on "MPEG movie", under "Toaster Hydrolift."

For what it's worth, I saw "4'x52''x6-7H Square Elevator Lift" and "25' Zip Lift" in use last night. Had either of the performers been injured, the lawsuit(s) would have been in the $100 million range.


----------



## BillESC (Oct 27, 2007)

An electric winch is available as an option.

Don't have to mention lawsuits to me. I was once involved with a 125 million dollar lawsuit involving Genie lifts. Anyone remember Curtis Mayfield?


----------



## What Rigger? (Oct 31, 2007)

Hey Bill, thanks for the photo. Now I see what you mean. 

But this humble servant thinks I'd still rather see that "pop up" style of platform over the Genie (mostly 'cause the pop-up sure did look cool when Bon Jovi used it on the 'New Jersey' tour back in the day.)

Hessian 'til the end.


----------



## gafftaper (Oct 31, 2007)

This just all sounds like a bad idea. As far as I'm concerned this is one of those topics that you either have the budget to do it right or you don't do it at all. Things like the Genie fork lift look good but it's not what they are designed for and you are going to get slammed with a law suit. Modifying a bucket genie lift sounds like an even worse idea. 

By the way Logos. How OSHA regulates theater is a very vague and confusing topic. In my state for OSHA laws do not apply. We have our own state industrial safety laws. In the case of schools most of the OSHA laws don't apply because they cover employees, not students. It's a mess. You would think there would be clear rules about using lifts and fly systems but there aren't. Instead it's all buried in other job applications so you often have to be a wizard to just figure out what OSHA has to say. In the safety class I took last summer we were told that there is only one state with theater specific occupational safety laws... no not New York, California, or Nevada... IDAHO! Yep the state that only has two theaters has strict safety laws about rigging.


----------



## Logos (Oct 31, 2007)

In this country and the UK theatres are simply defined as workplaces and all health and safety rules apply. There is equally no difference between students and employees and volunteers and amateurs are covered as well, which makes our insurance world a crazy place.
There are specific pieces of the regulations written for theatres and there are some interesting gaps. For example to rig flying scenery you need a ticket (certificate style qualification) as a rigger but here in SA you need no qualification to run a fly system once someone else has rigged it. And I believe you need no qualification to de rig.
Many of the genie style lifts require a course before you are allowed to use them. That suits me I am a designer who prefers not to focus.
Anyway ...


----------



## BillESC (Oct 31, 2007)

For the school theatre I frequently work in we have to be re-certified every year by Genie to operate their gear for insurance coverage. Got the card in my wallet.

Osha also inspect the theatre annually.

It's an interesting space, 500 seats in a middle school (only real theatre in the county) and has 196 - 2.4kW dimmers with about 165 currently working fixtures.


----------



## jwl868 (Nov 1, 2007)

gafftaper said:


> By the way Logos. How OSHA regulates theater is a very vague and confusing topic. In my state for OSHA laws do not apply. We have our own state industrial safety laws. In the case of schools most of the OSHA laws don't apply because they cover employees, not students. It's a mess. You would think there would be clear rules about using lifts and fly systems but there aren't. Instead it's all buried in other job applications so you often have to be a wizard to just figure out what OSHA has to say. In the safety class I took last summer we were told that there is only one state with theater specific occupational safety laws... no not New York, California, or Nevada... IDAHO! Yep the state that only has two theaters has strict safety laws about rigging.



gafftaper

You may want to double-check that application of your state's OSHA rules compared to the US OSHA rules. I doubt that the State rules can be less stringent that the US rules. (I would expect the state rules to be "Use the US rules except as follows:...").

Alot of State's OSHA rules were written to include public employees (who are not covered by US OSHA). If that's the case, then although (as you correctly state) students are not covered, the school employee's (teachers and custodians, for example) are, and so to make the work place safe for them, one would expect the work place to be safe for others, like students, who use the building. On the other hand, I think schools need to provide a safe place for students, just on general principles.

Yes, I agree, the rules for lifts, elevated platforms, and scaffolds are poorly written.

I don't think the application of OSHA rules to the theater is all that vague. Perhaps the biggest question is where application of the Construction Rules (29CFR 1926) end and the Occupational Rules (29CFR 1910) begin.

Joe


----------



## icewolf08 (Nov 2, 2007)

I am going to assume that legacy knows what he is doing, and as I am not saying how to build this effect, it shouldn't break the TOS. I would check out McMaster Carr and see if they have the hydraulic rams that you need. The carry both rams and pumps, you can probably source all your hydraulic needs from them if the have parts that suit your needs.


----------



## gafftaper (Nov 3, 2007)

25 States are not OSHA states. They are required to create their own plan which has to be approved by OSHA and has to meet certain benchmark standards to be approved. So In theory the state laws are more strict than OSHA laws. If you feel you are being required to work in an unsafe environment in a non-OSHA state you can file a federal complaint and it will be investigated. The point I was trying to make is that we are far from having the same level of national standardized occupational safety law that Logos was describing in Oz. 

It is difficult and confusing for say a high school drama teacher or a volunteer T.D. at the small community theater to know what is and isn't legal. Then they are often faced with the decision to complain that a theater is unsafe and risk having it shut down because they can't afford to repair it or keep working in unsafe conditions. How many high schools and jr. highs out there have 40 year old hemp rigging that hasn't been touched by a professional since it was installed? How many have curtains that are 40+ years old and not the least be fire proof. How many fire curtains are properly tested and maintained... We could make a long list. Let's start with all the dangerous things we have discussed in Charc's school... and it's had a fairly recent remodel.


----------



## avkid (Nov 3, 2007)

What the heck is a fire curtain?


----------



## icewolf08 (Nov 3, 2007)

avkid said:


> What the heck is a fire curtain?


Are you serious?

A fire curtain is a flameproof curtain that is designed to cut off the stage from the auditorium in the event of a fire. It rests just on the upstage side of the proscenium and travels in a smoke pocket. They are usually rigged to fire suppression system so that if the system is triggered the curtain comes down. Some curtains are held up with meltable links in the lines so that if a fire breaks out, the links melt and the curtain comes down. Often there is a knife on a chain next to the control lines for fire curtains for manual release.

As far as testing goes, it is very important. There are fire codes that govern how fast a fire curtain has to descend and how it must decelerate at a certain height off the deck. It is also against fire codes to have anything that could impede the travel of a fire curtain. No set piece save for the deck itself can break the plane of the fire curtain.

Fire curtains have and will continue to save lives and money. They are not to be take lightly.


----------



## Van (Nov 3, 2007)

What Icewolf said is very true. The plane of the smoke pocket cannot be crossed by scenery or obstructions. Some states/municipalities will allow for "Break-away" pieces to span the smoke pocket area, but all must be approved by the Fire Marshall. I've also head that the term "Break-a-Leg" comes from an old practice of having the fire curtain come down and break through into a pocket in the stage floor. Apparently the thin wooden covering over the pocket was called a "leg" and the term break-a-leg meant that they would be raising and lowering the Act Curtain so many times, because the applause was going on and on, that it would break the leg. I have no actual real world expirience of this phenome, and I've never seen a smoke curtain that was designed to break through the floor. 

"It's just a story Salty, now go back to bed."


----------



## derekleffew (Nov 3, 2007)

avkid said:


> What the heck is a fire curtain?


Similar to a fog curtain, or rain curtain, or wind curtain, (but I've never _heard_ of an _earth_ curtain), a fire curtain would be a series of nozzles either embedded in the stage floor DS or in the top and sides of the prosc., connected to a series of propane accumulators. Once the "peepers" have told the PLC that the pilots are lit, the valves open to let the liquid propane pass, where it is ignited after exiting the nozzles by the pilot flames. Perhaps I've spent too much time with volcanoes and pirate ships!


----------



## Van (Nov 3, 2007)

derekleffew said:


> Similar to a fog curtain, or rain curtain, or wind curtain, (but I've never _heard_ of an _earth_ curtain), a fire curtain would be a series of nozzles either embedded in the stage floor DS or in the top and sides of the prosc., connected to a series of propane accumulators. Once the "peepers" have told the PLC that the pilots are lit, the valves open to let the liquid propane pass, where it is ignited after exiting the nozzles by the pilot flames. Perhaps I've spent too much time with volcanoes and pirate ships!


 

No Derek, No ! That is a "Curtain of Fire" not a "Fire Curtain"


I'm typing this after picking myself up of the floor.


----------



## derekleffew (Nov 3, 2007)

So for masking, do you use "curtains of velour" or "velour curtains"? 

And why is it NOT OKAY to smoke (cigarettes) next to a smoke pocket or smoke door?

Speaking of smoke, I apparently missed all the excitement Halloween night when a new neighbor across the street called the Fire Dept. to report what turned out to be my next-door neighbor's F100! The big yellow truck came and everything, and the firepersons (persons of fire?) were actually quite amused (and also probably relieved). They told my neighbor to "just turn it down some" and went on their way.


----------



## Van (Nov 3, 2007)

That sort of happened to me once. I was working at a rental house, we had just unloaded a huge rental package and were doing maintenance. I grabbed the rosco 1500 and some dryer hose, ran the hose outside, under the garage door, and started running distilled water through it to clean it out. Well apparently someone driving by on the busy street outside mistook the fog for fire. Same thing happened the Fire department was much more relieved than alarmed. < oh is that a pun?>


----------



## avkid (Nov 3, 2007)

icewolf08 said:


> Are you serious?


Heck no!
Notice the sarcasm smiley face.


----------



## gafftaper (Nov 3, 2007)

derekleffew said:


> Similar to a fog curtain, or rain curtain, or wind curtain, (but I've never _heard_ of an _earth_ curtain), a fire curtain would be a series of nozzles either embedded in the stage floor DS or in the top and sides of the prosc., connected to a series of propane accumulators. Once the "peepers" have told the PLC that the pilots are lit, the valves open to let the liquid propane pass, where it is ignited after exiting the nozzles by the pilot flames. Perhaps I've spent too much time with volcanoes and pirate ships!



Wow! Now I know why they won't let you talk about where you work! I'm also thinking it may be best to take in a show at one of the dives on Fremont Street next time I'm in town... far away from where you work. 

On a serious note: "Dr. Doom" says you should lower your fire curtain every night before you leave. If you don't have a reason for it to be open, it should remain closed. Just like the fire doors need to be closed in the halls. It also means you know your fire curtain is in good working order. In ancient times... like when Van was in college... they would show off their fire curtain. They would often be elaborately decorated and they would start the show with the curtain closed to show the audience that there was a fire curtain for their safety. I don't know anyone who closes their fire curtain every night but it does sound like a good idea. Going back to my original point... what percentage of high schools have had their fire curtain drop tested in the last 20 years? I'm betting it's pretty low.


----------



## Logos (Nov 4, 2007)

In the UK if you have an "iron" (English for fire curtain) it MUST be shown to the audience so they know it works. So during the interval the fire curtain is lowered in and the FOH rag is opened so it is visible. Then the FOH rag is closed again and the iron pulled out.

The iron's in the big houses in London used to be operated by hydraulics (plain water) and when the river was low the ones at the end of the pipe systems were occasionally known to stick in the in position if everybody did it at once. Shows were occasionally cancelled because they couldn't get the iron out.

They call them the iron because they are usually some inherently fireproof material like concrete in an iron frame.


----------



## derekleffew (Nov 4, 2007)

The Louis Sullivan designed Auditorium Theatre in Chicago has one of the most elaborate reducing curtains/ fire curtains in the US, if not the world.

A theatre I used to work had the DS side of the asbestos painted black and affixed a front projection screen onto it, so it was used with some regularity. I find it somewhat ironic that a device originally installed to save lives is now a carcinogen. (Although it is my understanding that if painted both sides, an asbestos fire curtain is allowed to remain.) Most houses in Las Vegas do not have fire curtains, instead depending on a water deluge system, which seems like a better idea, until the system deploys unexpectedly.

Gafftaper, the only dive I know of on Fremont St. is "Girls of Glitter Gulch," where you'll certainly get an education, like how to pay $14 for one domestic beer, (two-drink minimum)! It's right under "Sassy Sally," across the street from "Vegas Vic," but you probably already knew that. The only real showroom downtown is at the Plaza, and I believe it DOES have an asbestos fire curtain. YMMV.

Oh, and as Logos says, I believe the practice of "exposing one's asbestos" was never common in the US, only the UK. I might be wrong, it's happened before.


----------



## soundlight (Nov 4, 2007)

gafftaper said:


> Going back to my original point... what percentage of high schools have had their fire curtain drop tested in the last 20 years? I'm betting it's pretty low.


The bigger question is...what percentage of schools have fire curtains?


----------



## Van (Nov 4, 2007)

Most places that I've seen in the US can't "show" their fire curtain as it's generally rigged in such a manner that it only comes in. Yes you could pull it back out with 10 teamsters and a truck, but yuck. 

Generally Asbestos Fire curtains, as long as they are "stabilized"< such as painted both sides, or treated with a sealing compound> are ok, Just as the asbestos insulation on water pipes is "OK" as long as it isn't flaking. As soon as the exterior surface stability is disturbed, however, it becomes a hazard. Not mocking, or belittling the danger of Asbestos, but the amount of exposure required, on average, to cause significant injury or worst case Mesothelioma, is approximate to standing in a room with a visible haze of Asbestos dust, with no breathing apparatus, for an average of 2 hours a day for about 6 months straight. Still it's important not to play with fire.


----------



## gafftaper (Nov 4, 2007)

soundlight said:


> The bigger question is...what percentage of schools have fire curtains?



I believe it's a fire code issue and you have to install one depending on the height of your fly space and size of the house. Theaters without a fly tower are considered one room. 

Want to know more about deluge systems but this hijack is far enough off that I'm going to start a new thread.


----------



## gafftaper (Nov 4, 2007)

derekleffew said:


> Gafftaper, the only dive I know of on Fremont St. is "Girls of Glitter Gulch," where you'll certainly get an education, like how to pay $14 for one domestic beer, (two-drink minimum)! It's right under "Sassy Sally," across the street from "Vegas Vic," but you probably already knew that. The only real showroom downtown is at the Plaza, and I believe it DOES have an asbestos fire curtain. YMMV.



That actually was what I was implying by my original quote. A friend of mine got ripped off at the Gulch and thus I learned my lesson and have never gone myself.


----------



## Logos (Nov 4, 2007)

I actually don't know the fire curtain regulations in Australia. In UK I believe the house has to have a fire curtain if it seats more than 500 people and has a proscenium arch splitting performance and audience into two areas. Hence no fire curtain in open air theatres, in the round theatres or larger black boxes.


----------



## Van (Nov 4, 2007)

Logos said:


> ................... Hence no fire curtain in open air theatres, ..................


 
Can I just say, "Well Duh"

I think that's called, rain.

HEHEHEHEHE


----------



## Logos (Nov 4, 2007)

Van said:


> Can I just say, "Well Duh"
> I think that's called, rain.
> HEHEHEHEHE



Yeah it sounds stupid but remember my post about the use of smoke machines and the correctly rated exhaust fan systems.
An open air theatre was banned from using smoke machines because it had no exhaust fans fitted!


----------



## Van (Nov 5, 2007)

Logos said:


> Yeah it sounds stupid but remember my post about the use of smoke machines and the correctly rated exhaust fan systems.
> An open air theatre was banned from using smoke machines because it had no exhaust fans fitted!


 
Yes those are your bureaucratic tax dollars at work !


----------



## icewolf08 (Nov 5, 2007)

Well, the University theatre department caused a delay at opening night of our show due to setting off the fire alarms with a fog machine during a tech rehearsal. Funny thing was, the fire marshall was in the audience of our show, so he was able to call off the trucks and reset the alarms and have words with the theatre department people.


----------

