# Poll: Mixing Musicals



## Jay Ashworth (Dec 7, 2019)

Just been told to mix the final show of this three-day rental musical using the mic channel mute buttons, because nobody's happy with the mix, because I'm not being given proper microphone cues.

Of people here who mix musicals on a regular basis: [POLL]


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## Colin (Dec 7, 2019)

All that does is make the late pickups more noticeable...


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## Aaron Becker (Dec 7, 2019)

Using mutes vs faders (or other automation if applicable) doesn’t change the mix. Are they complaining about lines not being heard or a balance (mix) issue? Was there appropriate rehearsals for you to learn the mix/show? Seems like whoever gave you this directive is trying to jump into the technical side of things instead of issuing an artistic request and having you meet it.

Ultimately you may not have been given the correct cues - but that doesn’t make much sense to correct it by using mutes... I sense there may be more to this story, but ultimately, no, using mutes probably isn’t the standard from what I’ve seen. Best of luck on the last run.


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## jkowtko (Dec 7, 2019)

+1, no mutes.

Another advantage to fading -- if the dialogue is fast I tend to leave faders up halfway on everyone in the scene, makes it easier to fade in for their line, and doesn't sound as awful if you miss a line.


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## MNicolai (Dec 7, 2019)

Faders are the way to go.

But generally when someone is unhappy and wants to stir things up for the final show, that just ensures that the last show will be a mess. Now you're fighting memory, and when missed cues become more obvious with the mutes/unmutes, you'll get a director or someone else in your ear who will rile you up and make it even harder to focus on doing a good job.


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## Dionysus (Dec 7, 2019)

...A little bit of A a little bit of B.
I agree go with faders, but don't be afraid to jam some mute buttons too.


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## Colin (Dec 7, 2019)

And when you're accustomed to throwing faders, the mutes are an additional thing to keep track of so you're not throwing a muted fader up expecting to nail an entrance only to royally fark it up, and it can be a lot easier to find a fader with your fingers without taking eyes off the stage or script compared to tapping the right mute.


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## Jay Ashworth (Dec 7, 2019)

Aaron Becker said:


> Using mutes vs faders (or other automation if applicable) doesn’t change the mix. Are they complaining about lines not being heard or a balance (mix) issue? Was there appropriate rehearsals for you to learn the mix/show? Seems like whoever gave you this directive is trying to jump into the technical side of things instead of issuing an artistic request and having you meet it.



Roughly that, I felt, yeah. It was a director who got thrown into SM because their SM had been in the hospital.

And then showed up anyway, and was giving me said cues.


> Ultimately you may not have been given the correct cues - but that doesn’t make much sense to correct it by using mutes... I sense there may be more to this story, but ultimately, no, using mutes probably isn’t the standard from what I’ve seen. Best of luck on the last run.



The evening show went *much* better, indeed, and yes, there were only 2 rehearsals in the space, which is much shorter than our usual rental.

That we had just deployed $26k of new ULX-D and TwinPlexes -- while they're *much* nicer than our old analog/Avlex rig -- didn't make my life any easier, either, since I had to get accustomed to them under the gun.

And the TwinPlex mics, BTW, are every bit as nice as Shure claims they are. They somehow manage to have a nice linear pickup pattern gain vs distances, and *still* not phase cancel as much as the old mics.


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## Jay Ashworth (Dec 7, 2019)

jkowtko said:


> +1, no mutes.
> 
> Another advantage to fading -- if the dialogue is fast I tend to leave faders up halfway on everyone in the scene, makes it easier to fade in for their line, and doesn't sound as awful if you miss a line.



Yup; partly that, and partly that I bump the channels I've been cued for up to maybe -50 so I can *see which ones they are*.


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## Jay Ashworth (Dec 7, 2019)

Colin said:


> And when you're accustomed to throwing faders, the mutes are an additional thing to keep track of so you're not throwing a muted fader up expecting to nail an entrance only to royally fark it up, and it can be a lot easier to find a fader with your fingers without taking eyes off the stage or script compared to tapping the right mute.


*Exactly* the damn argument I made. 

Though, for the record, their argument seemed to be that I wouldn't have to touch the faders, only the mutes.

Why that's a non-starter will be left as an exercise for the student.

I welcome everyone's favorite "broadway A1 mixing a musical" youtube links, though...


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## TimMc (Dec 8, 2019)

If the director or SM tells me how to operate the mixing desk, I'm leaving. Now, not at the end of the rehearsal. I'll stop by in the morning to pick up my cheque, please have it ready.

Why? Because I know what the phuque I'm doing here. If I have to wait for SM cues to open mics I'll be behind. You've expressed ZERO confidence in my ability to perform the work without micromanagement so I'm obviously the wrong person for the task. Pay my day fee and I'll not haunt your doors. I have no interest in working further with such a company until directorial or SM changes are made.


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## josh88 (Dec 8, 2019)

I'm a little bit of both in that I will use a mute after a person exits a scene, I like to kill off anything that won't be coming back for that scene and then the next scene resets the mutes/dcas/faders for me.


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## jkowtko (Dec 8, 2019)

Back to the OP ... what were the specific problems with the mix they were citing?


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## Footer (Dec 8, 2019)

Here's our general rule in my building when it comes to stuff like this.... 

If you want every line hit or it mixed exactly how you want you need to bring someone in who knows your show and they can mix it. You can hire one of my staff to go to your rehearsals and build your show, but that between you and them. Don't expect my staff to run your show perfectly after one or two rehearsals. 

I'd also highly advise you to get a desk in there with DCA's... even if its a X32. Running wireless on analog desk should not be a thing anymore.


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## KBToys82 (Dec 8, 2019)

We have a PreSonus 32.4.2AI and I've been a diehard fader person for a long time. However, I decided last year to let the students decide since they are the ones who run the board, and all of the students who sat at the board voted that mutes were a lot easier for them. We also had the fewest misses in mic entrances then ever before. I also attribute that to having a much better system where the computer engineer gave proper warnings on mics coming on/off. So I'm going to let the students decide again this year.

Hopefully next year I get a new mixer (keep going back and forth between X32 and the TF series).


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## jkowtko (Dec 8, 2019)

KBToys82 said:


> We also had the fewest misses in mic entrances then ever before.



I take it they're not doing line by line fading?


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## KBToys82 (Dec 8, 2019)

They occasionally do when we have actors who stand too close to others whose mics are on, but not to the extent that they would if I had DCAs. Last musical we had 18 mics in use and it just became too much for them. I'm still myself getting accustomed to the setup considering we went from having 0 wireless units we own and renting 12 per show just a few years ago to now we own 20 channels.


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## jkowtko (Dec 8, 2019)

They should get better at it over time. I've actually never had the luxury of using VCA/DCA grouping with musicals, and the last show I did (Funny Girl) had 24 wireless ... it wasn't easy, but it was doable. Careful placement of the channels by frequency of stage presence (channels 12-13 are the center of the board and where the lead actors are clustered) helps you to get them within reaching distance of your 8 fingers most of the time.


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## steine (Dec 9, 2019)

Depending on console a bit of A and a bit of B.
Prefer faders, but when I have to mix 30+ wireless on a LS9 I go for mutes on the aux-ensemble roles and only do faders for the main/lead ones.


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## Bobert (Dec 9, 2019)

I have always used mutes as I try to change my levels as little as possible after mic check. However, there are always times when faders are the way to go. This is not an A or B question, it's circumstance specific. 

I'm not quite understanding how this becomes a mix issue though. Were they not happy with the mix in general? Aside from the mute/fader issue? Were you not able to find the same levels when fading in, therefore changing your mix?

Did they give you specific reasoning for using the mutes vs faders? Faster response time, consistency, etc?


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## Jay Ashworth (Dec 9, 2019)

Largely, I gather, it was missed pickups, because I'd only seen it for 1 rehearsal and a dress, and I wasn't getting *any* cues for those, and mediocre cues for the first performance.

By the last (second) performance, the cues had improved, and I had memorized a number of them.

Normally, either our renters rent the whole week, or walk in with a competent SM, or both, and it's not a problem. This was a special case, but it was *their* special case, not mine.


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## jtweigandt (Dec 10, 2019)

I'm a lights guy, but I watch our sound people, since I'm down to pushing the go button at showtime. 
They set the faders at mic check and use mostly the mute buttons. 
Our board has the capability of doing a scene to scene programming just like a light board, and I can't for the life of me
figure out why none of the sound folks use it. Seems to me setting a bunch of cues to the script and hitting that go button would
be much easier, then tweak the levels as needed. Fewer missed "one line" characters. No missed stage exits with flushing toilets. Also a safety factor
if someone is sick or injured and somebody else has to step in and run the show.


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## MNicolai (Dec 10, 2019)

jtweigandt said:


> Our board has the capability of doing a scene to scene programming just like a light board, and I can't for the life of me figure out why none of the sound folks use it. Seems to me setting a bunch of cues to the script and hitting that go button would be much easier, then tweak the levels as needed. Fewer missed "one line" characters. No missed stage exits with flushing toilets. Also a safety factor if someone is sick or injured and somebody else has to step in and run the show.



Programming it is almost as much a skill as throwing faders. I've seen people try to use this for their first or second time and end up tearing their hair out when they discover they didn't think through the recall safe parameters -- now mid rehearsal if they want to adjust the EQ it automatically gets reset, or all the monitor mixes will get reset.

On top of that, all shows are not created equal. Some have a lot of entrances and exits but everyone comes and goes at basically the same time. Others are a constant revolving door of entrances and exits. If you program scenes for every single entrance/exit, it can end up being a ton of scenes. Can take up more programming/rehearsal time to set up than it's worth.

Still a very valid tool for mixing. Just not a magic bullet, and you still need to ride the faders regardless to keep the mix balanced.


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## Jay Ashworth (Dec 10, 2019)

"I try to change my levels as little as possible after sound check."

Two problems with that:

1) most of these shows have casts under the age of 15; their levels jump all over hell, all the time, even intra-show. Of course, my experience is that that's true of the adults, too, in the environment I work in.

2) my house has 3 *really nasty* resonant peaks; to get enough GBF for the actors to be audible, even with only 2 or 3 mics open, I have to ride the hairy edge of feedback; there's no way I can just pick a level and leave it there.

The corollary, which is an answer to someone else's comment back there: I'm overhire; if I quit in mid show, it's the last gig I'll do for the house, and they paid slightly more than half my bills last year.


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## Jay Ashworth (Dec 10, 2019)

As for scene programming, I personally don't see it being very useful, for the reasons Mike mentions, *unless what you're using it for is to rotate which channels are active* on the block of 8 (or so) DCA handles you can easily reach -- as it seen in a number of those Broadway mixer videos I mentioned earlier; in that environment, you're only scene-ing the UI, not the channels.

Since I'm rarely mixing more than 16 channels of vocal, and usually closer to 8, it doesn't buy me much.

No, *clean* mic cues are the prescription here -- and I know that because on shows where I get them (like the one this week and next)... I don't have these problems.


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## Ben Stiegler (Dec 11, 2019)

Sorry this happened to you. Was this an amateur group, or professional company?

I've been there, with a substitute last minute director sitting outside the installed system's prime coverage pattern 3' from the stage insisting on giving me "tips" in real time. It was an amateur musical 1 nite only performance in a super reflective room (glass windows on 2 long sides, marble floor, hard wood paneling) with only 2 rehearsals in the space with tech. Plenty of alcohol swirling around, too.

I ended up taking the A3, giving him the intercom, and instructing him to say "yes" to anything he was told and not bother me with it. This was at the same time we discovered a hardware fault in the Roland M-480 early digital mixer where mute group buttons worked fine to mute, but randomly would fail to unmute all members. Across multiple fader layers. I mixed, the A2 did sfx rolls and dealt with one by one unmutes at scene changes as the layers flapped by, and the A3 functioned as shock absorber. Fun times ... perfect storm.


Otherwise, I agree that both are useful, depending on the skill and consistency of the actors, whether mics are being traded between actors or remain constantly assigned, the flow of the show, how many channels are in use, whether floor or overhead area mics are also in use for chorus, lesser characters, tap dancers, etc., if you are mixing the orchestra as well, etc. I hesitate to do complex shows without a digital console tho, and generally specify that one must be rented if not available at the venue. It also helps to be able to source rental gear, so you have control over what gets dragged in, a way to get hardware support if it's not working, etc.


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## Jay Ashworth (Dec 11, 2019)

Jeez, and I thought I had it bad.

Yeah, this was an arts-school group; 71 kids from 4-15 doing Beast Jr.

We get a lot of that as rentals, it's just usually better organized...


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## Nate Mendl (Dec 11, 2019)

I mix a lot of musicals, mostly pretty decent community theater & high school. For the past few years I've used Palladium (made by CH Sound Design) and programmed the script. Palladium can control faders, mutes, eq, sends, DCA groups, channel names, and basically whatever you want. It takes more time up front but on the plus side I'll usually go into the first day of tech rehearsals and if the show is following the script everything will just work. Strongly recommended for mixing serious musical theater as programming is much faster than saving in scene focus (Yamaha) or snippets (X32/M32). It uses either OSC or midi messages to control the console, and you can control multiple consoles from Palladium (for example if you've got two different mixers and one is doing the orchestra while the other is doing the actor mics).

When programming this way, I generally have the software recall and change both faders and mutes.


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## jtweigandt (Dec 11, 2019)

That makes sense.. But we do all musicals here 5/year and He'll have 20 mics come ambling on to the stage.. Maybe a couple principals live for some dialog, then all sing... Kinda fun to see him go down the mute keys like Elton John playing the piano. I just don't think I could wrap my head around 3 up, 20 up 8 down all down in quick succession and hit the righ ones. without some help.. I know he does group them in logical order.. principals, secondarys, one offs and chorus... I guess that's why I do lights


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## Lextech (Dec 11, 2019)

Let me preface this by saying if I can I prefer to mix as close to line by line as I can. Sometimes that is not practical. I've been forced to use mute buttons and groups, we had a K3 theatre console, that's what I had and I don't want to go back. As for programming verses throwing faders, it really comes down to the need. For mass entrances I love being able to push a go button, however, I may have already brought up the fader on the mic for the first line. For single people coming on and off, almost always a fader or a DCA. Most of the cast sizes here are around 20 so it can get busy. What it comes down to me is work flow, I use a combination of techniques to get the results I need.


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## TimMc (Dec 11, 2019)

Jay Ashworth said:


> The corollary, which is an answer to someone else's comment back there: I'm overhire; if I quit in mid show, it's the last gig I'll do for the house, and they paid slightly more than half my bills last year.



That's the benefit you receive if you work for br-assholes... a paycheque. Up to you, Jay, to decide if the professional and personal abuse is acceptable in the workplace. Since their business represents so much of your personal income, suck it up and take their money. I'd flip burgers first.

If you don't own the company providing the service, I'd notify your HR dept that a client is creating a hostile and unprofessional working environment, and perhaps the CEO of the company needs to have a chat with the Headmaster of the private school about such things.


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## Rod Reilly (Dec 11, 2019)

Wow

We use scene/cur recall based on French Scenes (an entrance or exit delineates a scene). We usually open all on stage mics to catch "recoveries" - when an other actor may feed a missed line or prompt.

To Jays point this means we have to be able to sufficient gain before feedback with "ALL" mics open. We have had great success with this approach in some awful spaces - it has sometimes meant we had to bring a replacement speaker system - usually on our dime. But it means we have way less problems. We always retune the room with our dbx AFS2 leaving 6-8 open filters to catch live howls.

Without a decent SM calling cues properly including Standby S17 ...Go S17 in time any method is a cluster -.... and the only solution is knowing the show

Programming a musical/play takes time ... but makes the show close to flawless

PROCESS

get a marked up script that shows the directors entrances and exits
pre-program these before the first rehearsal (easiest if you bring your own board - in our case normally Soundcraft Si boards) - we have a set of scenes that start before the plays first cue (normally S6)
first Tech Rehearsal 
mic up each actor and mic check them standing on the apron of the stage and get them to use their loudiest voice as used during the show - eq, gain, compression etc and save to first active scene line entire cast up on apron, or
downstage limit they are using, mics on, and retune the space to catch feedback - you may not get to full level (though we usually do)
now we do a scene walk through, and make any adjustments needed to our recorded scene - real easy on the Soundcraft Si boards (the original EQ, comp gain settings will now carry over to all updated scenes (so every scene has to be updated during this rehearsal)
repeat for each scene
we also repeat the actor sound check and cast sound check before every performance (rehearsal or show)

If there are a lot of miked actors on stage with no lines for that scene we may knock there level down in the interests fo "catching a non-scripted line"

Through out every rehearsal you get (or even shows) we continually update any scene that needs it - change levels, eq etc, an extra actor etc - this generally means every show is better than the last one

We just did a school play - 

Greek Tragedy where we installed a sound and lighting system in a small gym with all brick walls and no sound treatments, 
trained the kids to run the system and update scenes - we did the preprograming based on the directors script - 
we sat through the first rehearsal teaching he board op to update cues. then we left. 
They had two more dress rehearsals, and a preview
We attended the Show and stood back and the SM called the cues perfectly and timely
the board op got every cue
Not sure how it would of gone if we expected an 16 year old board op with no experience on a digital board to do the programming!

not a single hint of feedback


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## macsound (Dec 11, 2019)

jtweigandt said:


> That makes sense.. But we do all musicals here 5/year and He'll have 20 mics come ambling on to the stage.. Maybe a couple principals live for some dialog, then all sing... Kinda fun to see him go down the mute keys like Elton John playing the piano. I just don't think I could wrap my head around 3 up, 20 up 8 down all down in quick succession and hit the righ ones. without some help.. I know he does group them in logical order.. principals, secondarys, one offs and chorus... I guess that's why I do lights


It's also alot in how you mark your script. After a couple of shows where you mark it poorly you realize things like giving youself a standby cue a page ahead so you know 10 people are about to enter. Also cues to tell you everyone but one is out or a quickchange is happening onstage type of thing. 
It gets very easy to mix with faders and makes you realize mute buttons really screw you over when you've forgotten one because you end up doing more work by pulling the fader down, unmuting then fading back in. Or if you accidentally unmute the wrong channel or try and turn up a fader that's still muted. 
Plus as someone who mixed theatre for many years on an analog console, those mute lights are freaking bright in the dark back row of the theatre and they didn't have adjustments like we do on digital consoles.


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## Joe Moore (Dec 11, 2019)

I mix musicals almost exclusively. I use X32 and video a full run through of the show with the actors wearing numbered jerseys correlating to their mic number. Watch the video and program the show with only mutes enabled. When you walk into the first rehearsal mic up everyone and run the show. I use gate to control all mics so when they are a bunch on stage you don't have cross talk issues. With only mute enabled on the show control any eq, compression, gate is unaffected when you hit the go button. I have over 30 years of analog board experience and this has been a life saver.


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## Joe Moore (Dec 11, 2019)

Generally if I have someone telling me how to mix a show I want to remind them that if they knew how to be a sound designer / engineer then I am guessing they would be doing the job. Really I listen, nod, and thank them for their input...then i do my thing my way. Some consoles have better show control than others. Allen Heath QU does not have a very flexible system.


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## spenserh (Dec 14, 2019)

Few points:
1) No director, musical director or otherwise, in the tech booth during the show. Write down your notes and give them to me after the show.
1a) MD can be in the booth during tech, as long as they give me the space I need to figure out the show.
2) Actors don't perform the exact same every night, why would I set faders and then leave them all night? Live performance is dynamic, we need to be responding to those dynamics to ensure they best show for the cast and the audience.
3) How I choose to operate my mix is up to me. If you aren't happy with the end result, see point 1) and give me some notes.


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## RonHebbard (Dec 14, 2019)

spenserh said:


> Few points:
> 1) No director, musical director or otherwise, in the tech booth during the show. Write down your notes and give them to me after the show.
> 1a) MD can be in the booth during tech, as long as they give me the space I need to figure out the show.
> 2) Actors don't perform the exact same every night, why would I set faders and then leave them all night? Live performance is dynamic, we need to be responding to those dynamics to ensure they best show for the cast and the audience.
> 3) How I choose to operate my mix is up to me. If you aren't happy with the end result, see point 1) and give me some notes.


 *@spenserh* Posting in FULL support.
Emphasizing your point 1: "Write down your notes and give them to me AFTER the show." (NOT in a rushed verbal chat as the House Lights are fading and I'm already cross-fading the pre show into the first act's opener.) 
Toodleoo! 
Ron Hebbard


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## NickVon (Dec 14, 2019)

I generally don't have a need to get line by line fading. I use Mutes as my general cueing for mics being on stage. But that doesn't stop me from having my hands on a mixbus/subgroup etc. I generally run all the mics about 5-10db below what I consider to be the 'Focused Speaker" volume, and will ride the faders once my cued my mutes for the scene, bumping here and there for solo, duet, and features lines/dialogue in songs, etc.

I also follow my own script, notated by me.


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## NickVon (Dec 14, 2019)

MNicolai said:


> Programming it is almost as much a skill as throwing faders. I've seen people try to use this for their first or second time and end up tearing their hair out when they discover they didn't think through the recall safe parameters -- now mid rehearsal if they want to adjust the EQ it automatically gets reset, or all the monitor mixes will get reset.
> 
> On top of that, all shows are not created equal. Some have a lot of entrances and exits but everyone comes and goes at basically the same time. Others are a constant revolving door of entrances and exits. If you program scenes for every single entrance/exit, it can end up being a ton of scenes. Can take up more programming/rehearsal time to set up than it's worth.
> 
> Still a very valid tool for mixing. Just not a magic bullet, and you still need to ride the faders regardless to keep the mix balanced.



This a Million Times this. FIven a week plus to set up scene/ recall safe and the level of console that gives me the ability to then disable the recall safes on scene when something needs to change sure. I've never had a show where I've had that luxury of time and trouble shootings, so manual running is still my goto.


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## nomuse (Dec 18, 2019)

The last time I mixed was on a manual, baby-board. Only DSP it had was a one-size-fits-all compressor on each channel. Fast show, one hour run, young audience. I set the faders to starting position by eye and used the mutes to pop them in and out; meant I could do the big entrances by running a finger along the bank of mutes.

Before that a lot of LS9. Recall safed everything but fader level, put a "memorize" hotkey right by a "forward" and "back" memory page hotkey. The recalled scene would pop the faders up and I reserved the mutes for "locking out" a mic that had gotten bad or gotten forgotten (it was not a controlled situation -- no A2, no support, actors did what they pleased. Only word I ever got from SM was "No, we have no time for a mic check, choreography/lights/director needs it. Oh, and director says it needs to be louder.")

Sorry. Bad memories. Anyhow, scene recall to one of three positions; "reminder" down at 40 db when I was going to ease it up manually on an entrance, "close" at 5-10 db low of my mark when I needed a whole bunch of people up for lines but would finesse them on a line-by-line basis (had to, in that house). And "this has to be good enough" when 20+ people would rush on stage at the same moment and the FSM help me if even one mic was off.

I'd adjust these presets based on experience and over the first weekend -- and whenever there were cast replacements, which were also common -- I'd adjust and then commit the adjustments to memory.


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## Ben Stiegler (Dec 18, 2019)

Jay Ashworth said:


> "I try to change my levels as little as possible after sound check."
> 
> Two problems with that:
> 
> ...


 Eliminator Perhaps investing in a few hundred dollar feedback eliminator black box for your personal eqpt locker would be worth the insurance factor it can provide. Not a substitute for mixing but an aid, just like tuning the house, LF roll off on vocal mics, and tweaking speaker alignment/ levels and adding front fills to avoid driving the mains so hot when they ha e coverage of downstage actor areas.


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## Jay Ashworth (Dec 18, 2019)

Where would I put that, on a desk with 16 mics coming in, and main, front-fill and stage-monitor auxes?


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## Ben Stiegler (Dec 18, 2019)

If you have a vocal sub mix, insert it there, return from it to an aux or Sfx return - then you can gain stage to mains and front full. I would be cautious about sending vocal mics back to stage monitors in a theatrical / actors on the move situation. Usually the rhythm part of the band (piano, bass, maybe some drums). What’s your exact console model? Let’s figure out how to best do this.

also ... look for a used dbx driverack 2 or lake processor ... your house eq, delays / time alignment between front fill and mains can be done and locked in there AND it has feedback Elim function baked in also. Bit of a pain to set up but once dialed in, your console can just be used for mixing and eq relevant to specific actors, mics, and wigs.

DM me if u wanna chat
Ben


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## Jay Ashworth (Dec 18, 2019)

I don't (and on an LS9-32, I don't think I easily can) and I'm just an overhire anyway; I can't stretch the install that far, I don't think.

Our processor is an Ashly, but I don't have control over that either.


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## Ben Stiegler (Dec 18, 2019)

Looks like you could send the mics out a Matrix mix to an external feedback eliminator, and return via one of the stereo inputs (possibly with a y adapter. Then send that stereo line input to the mixes for main, fills, and stage mons.


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## TimMc (Dec 19, 2019)

Jay, the words I'd like to use will be changed by the forum's Word Nanny (for those delicate sensibilities, of course!)... but essentially you're between the rock and the hard place. You're not able to deliver the quality of work you are capable of and it's frustrating. The client sets you up for failure and your employer is content to let the client do this to you.

I understand that this client represents a significant chunk of income for you personally and your shop. I'd set a price on my personal sanity and professionalism, and I'd insist on a "Dont mess with me" contract that directly acknowledges that you are a professional and you were hired specifically because of your experience and training. And walk if they don't adhere to it. Withholding services is the only option when push comes to shove, or you're stuck with the situation and knowing that you enabled the outcome.


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## Jay Ashworth (Dec 19, 2019)

Well, probably not significant; they're a 4 day rental, out of our 200ish active days a year.

But in practice, I told my supervisor "absolutely not", and explained why, and then proceded to do it correctly, and all was well.


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## TimMc (Dec 20, 2019)

Jay Ashworth said:


> Well, probably not significant; they're a 4 day rental, out of our 200ish active days a year.
> 
> But in practice, I told my supervisor "absolutely not", and explained why, and then proceded to do it correctly, and all was well.



Jay, you're such a rogue! 

Seriously, glad it was easy to work out. Sometimes I forget that "touch the knob and smile" is the better answer.


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## JD (Dec 20, 2019)

Faders when they are on stage, mutes if they are off stage. As said before, line jumping happens enough that you don't want to take anyone totally out of the mix if they are onstage. I just back them way off, but leave enough so something comes through if they jump a line. Once they leave the stage, then mute. (don't want any bathroom activities to come through the mix.)


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## Jay Ashworth (Dec 20, 2019)

Yeah, JD, if I'm getting good enough cues.

But they meant "set the levels at sound check and never touch them again; use mutes for all entrances and exits."


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## MNicolai (Dec 20, 2019)

Jay Ashworth said:


> But they meant "set the levels at sound check and never touch them again; use mutes for all entrances and exits."



Ask and ye shall receive.

I was mixing monitors some number of years ago for a piano act with a band and backup vocalists. The pianist was the star of the show but lost his bananas during sound check when I put a small amount of his own vocals into his wedge. Demanded I not adjust his wedge at all unless he further instructed me to. Got to the last number where he's the lead vocalist. Pretty sure not a single note he sang was in-key but since he had been adamant earlier I kept my paws off the console and watched him belt out the last number before taking his bow and storming off stage.

Really unprofessional act. Singer/dancers were 20' upstage of their wedges complaining that they couldn't hear the piano in their monitors so their production manager watched over my shoulder the entire time relaying feedback from the vocalists as they would stream on/off stage. I just threw their mixes onto my cue wedge and let her listen for herself. She apologized for her performers but kept trying to give me notes. Sorry -- can't protect your people from themselves. Should've told us you needed side fills and done a proper sound check instead of having a water cooler break around the piano.

(channeling my inner @RonHebbard today with stories from the past.)


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