# Sound board upgrade from Mackie CFX-20



## jkowtko (Mar 3, 2007)

I'm outgrowing my 20 channel Mackie CFX-20 and, with digital in the back of my mind for future purchase, I am short-term looking at something to give me more capacity at a modest price. What should I look at?

My needs are as follows:
* 12-16 mike input channels
* 2 CD stereo inputs
* 6-8 Sound Cue PC inputs
* 6-8 speaker outs (using sub-outs)
* 2 aux channel outs for recording device
* 2 aux outs for stage monitors

I would like to buy something used, and try to keep it under $1000 ... definitely under $1500.

Right now the Mackie 32.8 analog seems to be a pretty capable board for the price on the used market. The optional meter bridge is an advantage as well.

Any other suggestions for boards I should be looking at?

Thanks. John


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## SHARYNF (Mar 3, 2007)

A lot depends in how are are planning on using the mackie. That version tends not to move very well.
I tend to come down on the digital side of things, and these days, you can pick up Yamaha 02r's for the sort of money you are looking at on ebay. It's big and heavy, but certainly had a good reputation, has lots of io options etc

This item on ebay for instance has a buy it now. You can pick up Behringer micpres/adat units for pretty cheap and they work quite well to expand out your inputs and because of the wierd way behringer made this unit, you have independant adat outs to line level so you can easily turn this into a 32 input mixer with pre's and add 16 additional outputs using the adats. This would allow you to do 16 track recording also if you wanted.
and the trs inputs can be converted to xlr''s easily, and you can find phantom power units for these additional inputs. Anyway these are build like tanks, just a thought 

120092394340	is an auction for one pretty well setup for 1500 dollars If you do a search make sure you use o2r and 02r since the get listed both ways

sharyn


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## jkowtko (Mar 3, 2007)

Sorry, I didn't clarify my usage. Community theater, 3 dramas and 3 musicals each year, plus kids conservatory two productions, and misc special events. So all live, no recording studio, although I do like to record the shows. The board pretty much stays in one place, and if I need a portable board for special events I can get something small like a Mackie DFX-6/12 to tote around.

I didn't realize the digital boards were available at such a low cost. The first ones I looked at were the Mackie TT24 and Yamaha LS9, which are in the $7-10k and up. For under $2k it looks like I may have some options.

Some big advantages I see for using the digital board are:
- channel grouping for fader control (is this what VCA assignment is?)
- dynamic processors available per input channel, to be used as needed
- scene control with motorized faders

A few questions I'm hoping you can answer:

1) Is there any noticable latency on digital boards? Our theater is small and you can hear the voices of the louder actors directly, so if there is a delay in the PA it will be noticable, and that would nix the digital option for me.

2) Assuming you have a positive response to (1), can you provide a "quick" comparison of the Yamaha 02r vs 01v96? The 01v96 looks a lot newer, so I'm thinking much faster processor inside, etc. But if the 02r has any distinct advantages -- or no disadvantages -- vs the 01v96, then the 02r may be worth the cost savings.

3) Can you provide a "quick" comparison of these lower cost digital boards to the higher cost ones like the TT24 and LS9? Why spend the extra $8-10k?

Thanks. John


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## soundlight (Mar 3, 2007)

Quick 02R vs 01V96 comparison here: The 01V96 is a much newer board, the original 01V (which can be found on ebay for around $700) was in the same series as the 02R. The 01V96 has been updated, and Yamaha has also shrunk the case a bit to help reduce the size of the board, which was rather large when it first came out as the 01V about ten years ago (we have two of the original 01V's for outside calls here, and they've been running smoothly for a long time now). The 02R has fewer mic inputs onboard, but a lot more input capacity overall. The 02R96V2, on the other hand, which is Yammie's up-to-date version of the original 02R, has all the input that you would ever need. 16 mic pre's and 4 stereo channels on board, as well as the standard aes/ebu, s/pdif, midi, midi time code, smpte time code, cascade in/out, and a number of other interfaces. The 02R and the 02R96V2 also have 4 input card slots for more functionality if you need them.

So basically, the main differences between the 01V96 and the original 02R are these: 01V96 has more mic preamps and a newer featureset and processor onboard, but the 02R has capability for alot more input.

Once you get in to the 02R96V2 range, you're over the price of the LS9 or tt24 for a new unit, but far under for a used unit off ebay.


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## gafftaper (Mar 3, 2007)

Hijack sideways...

Reading this thread it just struck me as funny: CFX-20, DFX-12, 01V96, 02R, 02RV692, LS9, TT24...

Isn't it weird how the Sound consoles tend to use code numbers for their models while the light consoles all have a catchy names like... Congo, EOS, Light Palette, and Hog2. 

I guess the cool thing is that the code usually tells you something about what it can do and where it fits in the product line. But it sure is WAY more confusing than saying, "Buy a Strand Sub Palette"... knowing nothing about it you can guess it's got a lot of submasters. 

Hijack ends...


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## jkowtko (Mar 3, 2007)

Thanks Soundlight --

Fyi, this article clearly distinguishes the 02Rv2 from the 02R96, and can't stop raving about the 02R96, which is claims is a huge advancement over the v2.

http://mixguides.com/consoles/reviews/yamaha-02R96-console-1202/index.html

I did find a used v2 for sale nearby (http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sby/msg/285889025.html) for $1500 ... which sounds like it would be a good deal, except for this article that painted a picture of such a huge gap between the two. 

Can I assume the 01v96 will also be at the level of the 02r96? And if so, should I shy away from the v2?

Also, a question on the latency. I saw one of their boards had a mention of 2.5ms delay. The 02r's show .8 to 1.9ms delay depending on the sampling frequency. Is the delay simply going to be a function of the sampling frequency or are there other factors that will cause a longer delay in lower end boards?

Sorry for asking all of these questions -- as of this morning I knew virtually nothing about these boards so I've got a lot to bone up on here.


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## soundlight (Mar 3, 2007)

If you run straight from the analog ins on the board to the analog outs on the board, there should be very little issue. If you start adding expansion cards, and more AD/DA conversion than is on the board, things might slow down a tiny bit, but a noticeable bit. That said, we use 01V's here and there is zero noticeable latency in a recital hall with about 100 people in it.

In terms of the difference between the 02RV2 and the 02R96V2, it's an amazing jump in featureset. The consoles are really in two different classes. The 02Rv2 has only eight mic preamps, whereas the 02R96 has sixteen mic pres and still maintains four additional stereo inputs. The other console that you might want to take a look at is the Tascam DM-24. It's available for about $1000 on ebay. Get it with the meter bridge, if you can, even though it might cost a bit more. The DM-24 will also allow you to get a firewire card and record 24 channels directly to the computer if you want to. It also has 24 channels of TDIF (Tascam Digital InterFace) I/O built in for later I/O expansion with preamp racks or multitrack recorders (not that you'd need any of that for a theater).

If you only need 12 mic preamps, go with the 01V96. You'll be happy with it. If you need 16 mic preamps, look at the Tascam DM-24. For 24 preamps, well, that enters a whole different price range, and I don't think that you need to go there with the requirements that you stated.

Definitely look at the output options on each console to see if it will meet your needs. Unless you add more preamps through buying additional cards and preamps, the 02Rv2 will not meet your needs as it only has 8 preamps.


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## soundman1024 (Mar 3, 2007)

gafftaper said:


> Hijack sideways...
> 
> Reading this thread it just struck me as funny: CFX-20, DFX-12, 01V96, 02R, 02RV692, LS9, TT24...
> 
> ...


The sound people think more logically and don't need things to be easy to remember.


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## soundlight (Mar 3, 2007)

Sound guys don't think logically...how is LS9 logical? At least the Eos, Obsession, Express, Expression, Pallette, LightPallette, and Smartfade all refer to an operating system and structure, not just a random assignment. </hijack> But, as my username states, I live in both worlds, sound and lighting. I find that many consoles in each world have weird names, each for their own reason.


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## gafftaper (Mar 3, 2007)

soundlight said:


> Sound guys don't think logically...how is LS9 logical? At least the Eos, Obsession, Express, Expression, Pallette, LightPallette, and Smartfade all refer to an operating system and structure, not just a random assignment. </hijack> But, as my username states, I live in both worlds, sound and lighting. I find that many consoles in each world have weird names, each for their own reason.



Actually that may be the worst part. Most Mackie consoles makes some sense. The CFX-20 for example's got 20 channels and it has some on board effects. Yamaha on the other hand makes no sense at all... PM5D-RH. So you are never sure if you are supposed to know what the code means or not.


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## soundlight (Mar 3, 2007)

the -rh part makes sense. Remote Headamp.


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## jkowtko (Mar 4, 2007)

Getting back to the original topic (I'd be happy to chime in on 'sound vs lights' if someone wants to start a new thread) --

I've been looking at the on-line info for the 01v96, 02rv2, and 02r96, and have some very specific questions that will help me to determine which of these I can use for our theater.

First, let me clarify my I/O needs better:
- Input: My 12 wireless mics have line input to the board so I do not need preamps for those. So, what I do need is 32 input channels total, at least 8 of which can be preamped for stage/pit/god usage.
- Output: I am mixing live mics from the stage with sound effects, requiring me to be able to control (mix, EQ, effects) 8 separate outputs.

Questions:

1) The 01v at first glance looks too small, but can I use the ADAT I/O in addition to or in lieu of an expansion card to get the number of channels I need? If so, then this board is looking like a good moderate-cost option for a new equipment purchase for the theater.

Otherwise, I have tried to compare the 02rv2 vs 02r96 to see if a used 02rv2 is worth pursuing:

* In:
02rv2 has 8 mic/line + 8 line + 4x2 stereo = 24 total 
02r96 has 16 mic/line + 4x2 stereo = 24 total
* Out:
02r96 has 8 omni outs
02rv2 has only 6 aux outs. 

2) If I need 8 outputs total from the 02rv2, can I just use the CR or Studio outs in addition to aux? Or do I have to start buying expansion cards? And in these configurations, will I get full mixing control (using fader groups, etc) for all 8 outputs?

3) The 02rv2 has an advertised 2.5ms latency vs. 0.8 for the 02r96, presumably the higher sampling rate and faster processors account for the difference. Soundlight, you said your 01v sounds fine in a small auditorium. Is this the original 01v or the 01v96?

4) The 02r96 review says that the quality of EQ on the newer board is a lot better than the 02rv2 ... am I going to notice a difference in overall sound quality between the 02rv2 and the '96' models, or between the 02rv2 and analog boards?

5) On any of these digital boards, is EQ available for each of the 8 sub-outs? Is parametric EQ and/or notch filtering available so I can deal with feedback on the center cluster without having to buy additional hardware?

6) Last question -- if you had $3k to spend would you buy a new 01v96 with appropriate expansion units, or get a used 02rv2 and use the extra money for other equipment and supplies?

Thanks. John


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## soundlight (Mar 4, 2007)

Here's where I get to throw my curveball! Another console!

If I had $3K to spend on this project, I'd get the following:
Tascam DM-3200 Digital Console ($2550 w/shipping ebay)
Tascam Optical ADAT card ($313 w/shipping ebay)
2xBehringer ADA8000 ADAT interface AD Converter/Preamp ($215/ea ebay)

You only need one adat card because there is already an 8 channel adat interface onboard.

Yes, it's more than $3K. $300 more than $3K. I'd make a fundraising drive or overbudget request for this one, because the DM-3200 is a nice console, and this would make a very, very nice system.

EDIT:
The _original_ 01V sounds fine in a small auditorium, we use it for jazz vocalists and piano.

I really don't know why more people don't use Tascam consoles, I've been researching then quite a bit lately (I want to get the DM-3200 w/tdif preamps and firewire card for recording and live mixing)


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## Peter (Mar 4, 2007)

soundlight said:


> I really don't know why more people don't use Tascam consoles, I've been researching then quite a bit lately



The digital tascam boards that I have used have generally had HORRABLE user interfaces that were completely counterintuitive. I haven't played with any of their newer boards, but their earlier digital boards / Recording interfaces were a PAIN. Maybe they've improved recently, I dont want to start a flame either way. 

My real point is this: Whenever buying a digital board, try as hard as you can to find somewhere where you can sit and play with it for an hour and see how easy you find your way around on it. If you are always completely lost, try another board.


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## soundlight (Mar 4, 2007)

I did notice a difference in the intuitive nature between the old TM-D series and the newer DM series (3200 and 4800). The new DM series is alot better than the older TM-D series. They've finally got the fader flip, aux send, and eq functions up to standards.


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## jkowtko (Mar 5, 2007)

Thanks -- I looked at the Tascam DM-3200. For $1000 over the Yamaha 02Rv2 it looks like I get:
- 8 extra mic preamp inputs (16 vs 8)
- 96kHz vs 48kHz
and it looks like I lose the Aux outs (the Yamaha has 6)

Did I miss an other significant differences?

Will it be easy to get my 8 sub-outs through one of the digital interfaces?

And, again, is it possible to EQ the sub-outs in the board, or do I still have to buy external analog EQs?

Thanks. John


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## soundlight (Mar 5, 2007)

jkowtko said:


> and it looks like I lose the Aux outs (the Yamaha has 6)



Nope, 8 aux sends onboard, assignable to any output.


jkowtko said:


> Will it be easy to get my 8 sub-outs through one of the digital interfaces?



Pretty darn sure after reading the manual, the signal routing on the DM3200 is very, very flexible. You can assign any input to any channel, and any group, aux, or other buss to any physical output on the board, including those in the add-on card section.


jkowtko said:


> And, again, is it possible to EQ the sub-outs in the board, or do I still have to buy external analog EQs?



I don't think so, after reading the manual. This is part of the price difference that you were asking about before between the $3k boards and the $10k boards.

If you do some fun stuff with returning them through an extra channel and then taking a direct out of that channel and sending it down a TDIF out, that would work. But that would imply that you had 8 extra channels, because the aux returns (there's 16 of them, I think) don't have EQ on them. But this also might also create a noticeable latency because the signal would have to travel through the digital path twice, through two sets of AD/DA converters, and _then_ out.


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## Cooze (Mar 6, 2007)

I try to stay away from Mackie at all costs, there are so many other options out there that are better, I am a big fan of Yamaha, because they are reasonably priced, they work well, and they last, not shooting anyone else down but I personally would never purchase a Mackie. Post what you decide on, I am interested.



John Williams
Technical Director/Sound Director
Calvert Theatre, Prince Frederick, MD


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## SHARYNF (Mar 11, 2007)

Some more information on the 01v96 and the 02rv2

Typically you add the expansion card to the o1v96 there is an 8 and a 16 chanel version, and then add either one or two of the Behringer adat i/o units. These units are really quite nice and have an oddball feature that works well in this configuration... Typically you would expect that the Preamps in would be connected to the adat out AND the analog out, but basically Behringer has really but two units in a single box, on is a Pre to Adat 8 channels, and the other is adat to Line 8 channels, so you have the flexibility to use these all at the same time. A number of sound companies use this setup as one of the best inexpensive digital consoles.

On the 02r there is a mis understanding, there are 16 mic pre amp inputs, but to save space yamaha left off the xlr connectors (they use trs) and left off Phantom power on the second 8 inputs, but there are 16 mic preamps. In addition you can add up to 4 cards for options. In my config I have one the extra digital processors with adat io and then two adat ion cards, and a cascade card so that two o2r's can be linked but that is more for recording than pa.

A lot of the 96 capability IMO makes a lot more sense in recording where you want to use the higher end digitizers than for live sound.

The 02r's are big heavy, and built like tanks, Personally I think they are an interesting deal these days since prices have dropped so much. If you want a new system then the 01v96 is probably a better way to go but a bit more money.

What I like about Yamaha is the quality the ruggedness and the support, if you look inside these are well build and repairable.

For small setups, for instance for some of the video productions where we are just looking for 16 ins, and 8 adat out, I have used the 03d's which are very cheap these days, they have 8 pre's and 8 lines in so you do need to add preamps, and then a single card slot for adat. Smaller setup, not as flexible as the 01v but another alternative.

Sharyn


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## jkowtko (Mar 11, 2007)

Thanks guys -- I'm getting closer to determining what I ultimately need in a digital board. Here are my thoughts based on all of the input so far:

* The Behringer ADA8000 looks like a pretty neat card because you can get
8 mic/line ins and 8 outs all from a single card. So as long as your board
has a pair of ADAT I/O plugs, this is an easy expansion

* Yamaha: I think I would prefer the 01v with an ADA8000. That will
give me the minimum ins and outs that I need, I can add a second ADAT
expansion card with a second ADA8000 if I need to go further. It's 96kHz,
has USB for computer control, and has a relatively compact size.
In comparison, the 02rv2 (not 96) starts out with no native ADAT, no USB
and is much bigger in size. (my sound booth is tiny with shallow desk).

* The Tascam DM3200 also looks like a good option if space weren't an 
issue. With the built in mix/line inputs and ADAT interface, it's similar in
capacity to the Yamaha 01v ... one ADA8000 to handle my min config.
However I don't know if there are drawbacks to Tascam vs. Yamaha.

I guess ultimately any one of these three boards should serve my purpose, and it may come down to feature preference and ergonomics.

However, one other BIG consideration for me is signal delay. I will be using this board for live musical theater, so any discernable delay will kill this digital an option for me. Can anyone comment on this or testify that digital works acceptably well in live theater? (Music Man tech is April 30 so I still have some time to make my decision).

Thanks. John


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## BenFranske (Mar 12, 2007)

Having used a lot of Yamaha digital consoles from the ProMix 01 to the original 01V to the 01V96v2, PM1D, PM5D and most recently M7CL48 I can say that you don't need to worry about latency much (if at all). I have used all of these in live events and it has never been an issue. You're going to need some time to learn your way around the console though, that's going to be a bigger issue. digital consoles just work differently than analogs and you'll need some time to figure out the menu structure and where things are. They're a lot more flexible but you pay for that (usually) in complexity.


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## Cooze (Mar 12, 2007)

I just want to let you know that I respect you for doing all this research before buying, it is always good to know what other people think instead of going on your own opinion, you did a very good thing by investigating before purchasing.

Next I would like to let you know that I have not had a positive expirence with Behringer however other people may feel differently about it, I would stay away from it, I belive the saying "you get what you pay for" really applies to them. I think you have 2 other really good choices, I have not worked with any of Yamaha's digital equipment but I do know of some places that do use them and they are very satisfied. I have not ever used a Tascam product but also never heard anything negative about them.

Good luck, I am interested in knowing what you end up with.


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## soundlight (Mar 12, 2007)

I have heard almost nothing but bad about Behringer...except for the ADA8000. It seems to be the only product that they ever made that works well and doesn't break. I know from experience that the mute buttons on their SL series of consoles doesn't mute the signal all the way...just reduces it about 60dB


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## SHARYNF (Mar 12, 2007)

Personally I think the 01v96 is probably the best way to go for you, will be a bit more pricey but one thing to consider it that these Yamaha units tend to hold their value well.

IF you expand the adat, I recommend that you get the 16 channel adat card, since there is only one slot. You might be able to negotiate a deal on what you want with some of the dealers.

Delay will NOT BE A PROBLEM.

The main thing the O2r's have going for them is price and the meter bridge ability and some expansion slot flexibility,but they are big heavy, no question about it. They are built like a tank you would be amazed at what sort of banging I have seen them take and still work out

All that said, IMO if you can swing the budget go for the 01v96

Sharyn


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## jkowtko (Mar 13, 2007)

Cooze, I generally like to know as much as possible before making a big purchase like this. Thankfully these forums are a great way to tap into others that have already gone there before you, and I will in turn do the same for newcomers down the road ...

Sharyne, I just want to confirm the advantages of the 01v96 over the 02r as you know them:
* smaller & lighter
* higher sampling rate, and generally newer technology, therefore overall better features/sound/responsiveness
* USB port for PC-based displays and control, including meter bridge

And the disadvantages:
* No sub faders (but not needed if I have fader grouping)
* Price. Around $1000-1500 more for the 01v (I can get a used 02r for around the $1000 range, $1500 if I include expansion cards and meter bridge.

I will check with my supplier on 01v prices -- hopefully I can narrow the gap.

In the meantime, if I want to check out a used board, since I haven't used digital boards before, can you tell me the handful of things I should test on the board (or have the owner show me) to verify it is in proper working order?

One other quick question -- if I were to get an 02r, is the v2 just a software update to the board or are there hardware changes? If just software, is this a free download?

Thanks. John

PS: Soundlight, I know you're a Tascam fan ... I haven't forgotten about the DM-3200, but also falls into the same set of issues (size, weight) as the 02r .. but I will consider it along with a used 02r.


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## SHARYNF (Mar 13, 2007)

Hi your analysis on the 01v96 is correct. The software upgrade to v2 on the 02r is via a set of prom chips that you replace via the rear panel
Sharyn


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## Andy_Leviss (Mar 13, 2007)

Couple quick points on the 01V96. While you can get a 16 ch ADAT card, you only get 16 channels each way if you're running at 48k. At 96k, you need to use double-channel mode, which cuts you down to 8 in, 8 out.

Also, I'm not sure what you mean by not having sub-faders. On the 02R, on your first layer, you have 16 mono faders, 4 stereo faders, and a main L/R fader. You CAN send route busses through those stereo faders, but they're not directly becoming the output fader for that bus, those buses are actually routing to those inputs in the digital realm. It's a weird, wonky thing. Typical Yamaha, LOL.

If you flip to the Aux/Bus page of the MIDI Remote screen, then you can pull up all the aux and bus sends on the physical faders, but of course you can't simultaneously access your input faders.

On the 01V96, you have two options. Standard layers have the two input layers, and then a master layer, which has the aux and bus outputs on the physical faders. However, you also have a great innovation that came with the DM-series, the User Assignable Layer, which lets you custom design up to four fader banks with any input, output, or fader group master (ie, DCA) on any of the 16 faders you want. You can have an input next to a group master next to an aux send next to a bus master, etc.

So the 01V96 is actually FAR more flexible with regards to sub-faders, if you're referring to subgroups, not less.

--A


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## jkowtko (Mar 14, 2007)

Yeah, I noticed the 48kHz when using all 16 I/Os on that card. Will there be a noticable difference between 48 and 96kHz? Will that translate into latency? .... But ... Since there is a built-in ADAT even if I just use 8 channels on the expansion card I'll still have 16 I/O expansion channels at full sampling rate, so I think I'm still covered on channel needs.

I like the user assignable layer concept. I am a fan of flexibility and in my software efforts over the years have always tried to design in many-to-many relationships in abstraction layers like they appear to have done here. If the 02r doesn't have it, then that's another notable advantage of the 01v.

A somewhat related and novice question (from a much earlier post on a different thread) ... what does VCA stand for? I'm pretty sure it's just a fancy name for channel grouping, but I couldn't find a definition of that acronym anywhere -- is it used by a particular manufacturer?

Thanks. John


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## audioslavematt (Mar 14, 2007)

Sub groups and VCAs are two different things. http://www.allen-heath.com/US/ViewProductDownloads.asp?search=Mixing Live With VCAs


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## jkowtko (Mar 15, 2007)

Aha .... very cool. This really adds a lot of flexibility (and sound quality, apparently) to the analog board.

Question then, for live performance would it be better to have a digital board like the 01v96, or a VCA analog board?

And what can I get into a VCA analog board for? Quickly poking around, all I found was the A&H ML3000 series, which, although seemingly reasonably priced, is well over my budget. Anything I can get used in the $2k range? Or is that why people will choose the digital boards -- lower cost?

Thanks. John


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## Peter (Mar 15, 2007)

About 48kHz vs 96kHz.. in a live sound application you will most likey never notice a difference. Some people prefer 96kHz for recording applicatoins, wheras other people prefer 44.1kHz because that is what the final product will most likely be, but the short answer is 48kHz should be fine.


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## Eboy87 (Mar 15, 2007)

I'm a little surprised no one mentioned this. If you go the 01v route, the 01v96 can be connected to a PC (or Mac running Parallels or boot camp) and controled via Studio Manager. This way you can set up the basics of a show before you actually get on the console. I'm pretty sure the original 01v didn't do this, at least that's what I thought when I was researching the two (I almost bought one, but bought a Gibson SG instead). 

If it were up to me, I'd go for the 01v96 with a Behringer ADA8000. Trust me, once you sync up studio manager (which can be a PITA at first), you'll love it. Just my 2 cents.


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## jkowtko (Mar 16, 2007)

Ian, I did mention it briefly earlier in the thead, as one difference between the '96' and the earlier models. But thanks for the emphasis -- I wasn't thinking about the convenience of being able to set up my programs from home rather than having to be in the theater to do it.

One more question on the User Assignable layer and Fader Groups vs VCA -- can the 01v96 give you the ability to separate level control from routing? For my sound cue machine which runs 6-8 input channels, I would prefer all 8 channel levels be managed by just one fader, but each of the channels does need to be routed to a separate output channel for directing sound to the various speakers in the theater. VCAs will let me do that, but I couldn't find any verbiage in the 01v96 doc that stated whether I could do the same. I really don't want to use up 8 faders just for the sound cues.

Thanks. John


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## Andy_Leviss (Mar 17, 2007)

First, Studio Manager; for all except the newer ethernet-connected Yamaha consoles (the M7CL and LS9), there is a native Mac version. No need for Parallels or Boot Camp.

Second, level control separate from routing. Yes, the 01V96 can do this with fader groups, in two ways. In normal operation, the faders are ganged together, so they all move in unison, with whatever ratio they had to each other when the group was enabled. In group master fader mode, you get faders for the groups which you can put into the UA layer, which acts (mostly*) like a VCA/DCA (DCA is a sometimes-used term for the digital equivalent of a VCA).

--A

*-Fully functional VCA/DCAs will allow you to assign one channel to multiple VCAs; group master faders on the DM- and *96 series consoles only allow a channel to be a part of one group.


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## Eboy87 (Mar 17, 2007)

Andy_Leviss said:


> First, Studio Manager; for all except the newer ethernet-connected Yamaha consoles (the M7CL and LS9), there is a native Mac version. No need for Parallels or Boot Camp.



  Oops, you're right, had a slight case of cranal-rectal inversion there. I do have the mac version of SM for the 01v, DM2000, and PM5D. But I still run Parallels for the M7 and LS9. Open mouth, insert foot.


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## jkowtko (Mar 19, 2007)

Ok, so I think for $2500 for digital I would go with a Yamaha 01v96 with additional cards -- based on technology, flexibility, convenience, and size and weight. Thanks everyone for your input.

Now, (of course), I'm finding myself tight on budget, having to upgrade some mikes and buy EQ and a couple extra PA speakers, so I would like to see if there's a low-cost upgrade to my existing analog board. I've looked around and it's hard to find something with the format that I need.

My CFX-20 has:

- Input channels: 16 mono + 2 stereo pairs
- Buses: 4 group + 2 aux + 2 efx = 8 total
- jacks on top (fairly important as I have a shallow desk with audience right behind it, difficult to access the rear, so I need top jacks for patching)

What I need is:

- Input: 24 mono + 2 stereo pairs, or 32 mono
- Bus: 10 total (8 speaker outs plus 2 for recording or stage/band monitor)
- jacks on top

Looking around, I had a hard time finding boards with this arrangement. In fact, the only real match for my needs that I could find was ... brace yourselves ... Behringer!

Yes, the Behringer MX3282A has 24+8 input, 8+6 outputs, jacks on top, and comes at a ridiculously low price of $600 ... I can get one new at the local music shop right now! But will I be kicking myself later if I buy it ... ?

Another board I really like was the Allen & Heath PA-28, everything looks great for $1000 or so, except for lack of output buses :| So I think this one is ruled out.

The Yamaha MG3214 as all the I/O I need for $1000, but the jacks are in the rear ... :|

I can also go to a Mackie 32.8 but they're very deep boards, however if I'm pressed then this may be my only viable option.

So I would appreciate input on other board options -- new or discontinued models -- that would give me the type of features that the Behringer has.

I would also appreciate some feedback on the Behringer. Is this board going to be noisy? Will channels stop working in the middle of shows? Is it worth buying the board, keeping the Mackie as a backup, and counting on warranty and other repairs to keep it operational for the next couple of years until I can get something much better? (After all, $500 in repairs and I'm still just approaching the cost of a Yamaha or A&H).

Thanks. John


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## soundlight (Mar 19, 2007)

If you have the money for the A&H or the Yamaha now, get it. Otherwise, the Behringer board will work. Yes, they have destroyed themselves with their new mixers (their SL series doesn't even mute all the way when you push the mute button, the signal just drops alot but is still audible if the speakers are up loud enough), but this one series of mixers (the MX2442 and MX3282) are the only ones that one of the local sound company heads. He's taken his MX3282 out to a number of festivals, large theater gigs, etc, and he sometimes even trusts it over his smaller A&H because of the built-in flexibility. He has sworn off any of the new Behringer stuff because the quality has been plummeting downhill, but he still holds on to his MX3282 like a brick of gold. This is the same guy who uses Shure Beta mics and AKG mics and DBX processing as well as PAS speakers for the huge Shakori Hills festival down here. It's seriously the only bit of Behringer gear that he trusts.

But if you're just scrutinizing the yammie because the jacks are in the rear, you should go ahead and buy it if you have the money, because it is a nicer board.


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## jkowtko (Mar 23, 2007)

Well, this sounds pretty much like a ringing endorsement for the least expensive 8-bus board on the market! 

What I'd like to hear is why I shouldn't buy this board? Are there any specific issues like the faders have a terrible feel to them, noisy buttons, difficult to make precise volume adjustments, confusing panel displays? It sounds like there won't be a problem with breakages ... and it sounds like it works well for live performance ...

I can understand why I would in general be happier with a better quality board, but to lose the bus structure or the top jacks, and for the large difference in price (double) while under a very tight budget, it would take a significant usability or reliability issue to convince me to fork out the extra money right now ...

(Keep in mind, next year I may go digital for musicals with a Yamaga 01v96 ... this is a short-term analog upgrade I'm considering now just to get the extra channels with as little cost as possible).

Thanks. John


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## SHARYNF (Mar 28, 2007)

There is an old saying, the quality endures long after the price is forgotten. In most cases I think it is best to buy quality, since the true cost of an item is what you paid for it, plus what you put into it, minus what you can sell it for at the end especially if you are looking at an upgrade. In most cases buying something cheap and then upgrading tends to be more expensive.

Again back to earlier parts of this thread, you could buy an 03d or an o2r for the price of the Behringer, and have a far more saleable unit, 

The other point is, if you really are not under massive pressure, wait until you have the money for the 01v96, then add the pieces you need to bring it up to more channels 

Sharyn


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## soundlight (Mar 28, 2007)

On the reliability of Yamaha digital consoles: there is a pair of 01v's here that have been going out at least every other week for outside calls during the whole school year for about ten years now. They're roadcased, but they've been running almost flawlessly forever.


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## jkowtko (Mar 29, 2007)

Sigh ... okay ... I can (personally) afford to put up the money for the 01v, and yes I would prefer to buy something better and not be kicking myself about it for the next two years. 

The one 'pro' about the Behringer board is that I can probably pick up the display unit from the local shop new for about $500, which means if I use that for a few shows and sell it later on for $300 or so, I haven't really lost that much money on the board. At least not compared to a $2-3k board. In fact, I would probably keep it as a backup board.

However, now I'm looking at dealing with 12 wireless mikes for another musical coming up, and wanting scene snapshoting and motorized faders more and more ... And, in order to minimize the number of switchoffs I may increase the number of wireless to 18, which means scene snapshots will be more important than ever.

So for the 01v:
* Let's say I end up with 18 wireless, a random assortment of extra mikes, and 8 inputs from the Sound Cue PC. I would potentially want 24 faders at my fingertips (23 mikes, one VCA for the Sound Cue channels). The 01v has 16 faders. Do I change the grouping of input channels from scene to scene to fit within a 16 fader arrangement? In this case (as an example), I would assume I give the six main lead actors dedicated faders 1-6 throughout the show, and rotate the other wireless through faders 7-12, and keep 13-16 for area/pit mikes and Sound Cue. Is this how it's done, and how do you keep track of who's on 7-12 for each scene? Will the PC display tell you the scene-by-scene assignments for easy reference, or do I have to keep a chart nearby?

* where do you suggest I find an 01v to buy? They have been few and far between on eBay, and for new purchase should I do mail order or is it safer to find a local shop that can order it for me? At $100 bucks a round trip on shipping, I'm thinking it's safer to find a dealer within driving distance ...

Thanks. John


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## SHARYNF (Mar 29, 2007)

Here is a link you might want to look at;

http://www.yamahaproaudio.com/downloads/documents/index.html #01v96

Running it with the external sofware control might help you also

If the price is close you usually are better off local if it is a good dealer, since there are no dealers within 1000 miles of me, I'm usually using the online companies 

Also you might want to look at http://srforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/t/21906/0/
I would suggest that you join that forum also, and contact Ivan Beaver re the guide he is putting together for the 01v96
There are LOTS of people on the Lab Lounge section that use the 01v96 all the time and provide excellent help
day
I use 03d's and 02r's so I would rather you talk to someone who uses the 01v every day


Sharyn


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## jkowtko (Mar 30, 2007)

Thanks Sharyn ... I joined the other forum and poked around a bit. I also checked out bunch of docs on the Yamaha support web page you mentioned. I'll check the local dealers first ....

Fyi, not to start up a different topic on this thread, but my colleague at work keeps bringing up the Ramsa DA7 ... his first entry into digital several years ago. He does studio recording, not live sound reinforcement, but has been doing it for 20+ years, and said he really liked that board. Owned it in between a Mackie 32x8 and his current all-digital PC-based setup. He says the DA7 and 01v were rivals at the time -- he chose the Ramsa over the Yamaha for various reasons, one of which was community support (there still is a DA7 web site and what appears to be a large following). They can be purchased < $1k and are reasonably compact and portable, so would seem like a good stepping-stone to the 01v ... and looking at the docs, it appears to have more-or-less the same features other than lack of VCA/DCA and what looks like less or more-difficult to configure I/O capacity ... Is a used one of these worth looking at or is it "not ready for prime-time"?

Thanks. John


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## soundlight (Mar 30, 2007)

Here's the deal on the DA7. It has an amazing featureset, and I learned how to use it in under an hour. It has Aux On Fader, which is nice, and a very sweet EQ section, as well as very sweet preamps (it has 8 of them). You really do need expansion cards for the DA7, though. The meter bridge is also almost a necessity, because in switching between fader layers, it's hard to keep up with what levels are what, and the meter bridge really helps with this.

We own one here, so I can attest to the fact that it's an amazingly flexible console, but it is limited for a few reasons. One, cue storage is limited. It does not have that many cues (thirty some, if I remember properly).Also, the expansion cards are basically worth twice their weight in gold bullion now, because there are not many around. One other issue with the console is the lack of feasible backup of shows. There is supposed to be a way that you can do this over MIDI, but I don't know how to do it, and it's rather complex.

Basically, the deal with the DA7 is that Guitar Center got ahold of a bunch of them (we're talking hundreds or thousands here), dropped the price floor out by putting them on sale, and Ramsa lost their market because people didn't want to pay the full price for them. I actually got that story from one of the guys on the DA7 deveopment team, who is now working for Yamaha, and visited here to give advice on our PAC's PM5D consoles.

It is an amazing console though, and I'd have a very hard time picking between the two. If I could get three WR-ADDA cards and the necessary DB-25 cables to go with them along with it, I would most definitely go for the DA7.


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## SHARYNF (Mar 30, 2007)

The big problem with the Ramsa is that it is no longer made, so you are sort of on your own.
Sharyn


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## jkowtko (Apr 1, 2007)

The DA7 doc says it will store 50 scenes ... not as good as 99, but should be okay to give me enough flexibility in cueing up a two-act play with 15-20 actual scenes in it.

The PC connection required for the MIDI->Bulk output function isn't well described in the documentation. However if MIDI support from the PC end is a standard thing, then I would imagine this should be a straightforward operation. I'll check with my colleague on this.

The lack of product support/service is definitely an issue. So if I went with one of these I would have to have keep a backup board handy, just in case.

Just to make the decision more difficult, I also found that the local shop will give me a great deal on the 01v (with ADAT expansion and two ADA8000s I'm probably under $2500 total) so I'm going to have to weigh that against finding a well-loaded DA7 for under $1000.

Thanks. John


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## SHARYNF (Apr 1, 2007)

Tough decision, I think that in economic terms the market tends to reflect the true value, and factors in the risk factors, SO I guess I you were handy electronically or had access to a good shop you could get two of the Ramsa Da7

Sharyn


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## HandyMan (Apr 4, 2007)

hey jkowtko, if and when you do upgrade to an newer board, umm how much would you sell the cfx-20 for?..just curious...


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## avkid (Apr 6, 2007)

HandyMan said:


> hey jkowtko, if and when you do upgrade to an newer board, umm how much would you sell the cfx-20 for?..just curious...


My magical powers say $622 US
(PrePal="magical powers")
http://www.prepal.com/data/Mackie.htm


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## jkowtko (Apr 7, 2007)

On a side note -- as a stopgap solution the Behringer boards are out of the running because they don't have balanced group outs. Since I am routing to all of my speakers through the group outs and running 50-100' + lines to the self-powered speakers, they need to be balanced. My little Mackie CFX-20 has all balanced outs -- group, aux, and efx.

That also means the Yamaha mg3214fx is also out for the same reason.

The digital boards are still fine ... the ADA8000 I/O units are fully balanced


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## avkid (Apr 7, 2007)

You could use a rackmount DI.
http://www.audiopile.net/products/DI_Boxes/FDB-404/FDB-404_cutsheet.asp


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## jkowtko (Apr 14, 2007)

Ok, so DIs along with a modest level board might work ... however I need to take into account the cost of the DIs ($150 / 8 output channels?)

Here's another thought ... the Mackie CFX-20 we have is a decent board, the right size, and has all balanced outs. What I immediately need is just more channels. Since I'm thinking about getting a board for myself, I thought -- why not just buy another CFX and daisy-chain them? This could be an inexpensive but effective short-term stopgap until I get a decent board.

So I'm looking around for a CFX-12 or 16 ... found some, but they're in the $300 range -- not too expensive, but not too cheap either. 

So I looked for even cheaper used boards that will give me 12 channel faders. I don't need balanced group outs since I'll just run the main outs from this board into an input channel on the existing board. Looking around:
- Yamaha 1602
- DOD 1222 XL (really cheap)
- Peavey MD-12 or MD-16
- Mackie CR1604
- Nady CMX 16a
- Behringer MX or Xenyx

Does anyone have experience with any of these? Are they usable (especially the DOD) or just noisy low-end equipment?

Thanks. John


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## SHARYNF (Apr 14, 2007)

the only one I am familar with from actual experience is the MACKIE.
http://www.mackie.com/products/cr1604vlz/index.html

the outputs are infact balanced/unbalanced, they are on TRS jacks.

These mixers have two problems, that may or may not be a problem, one is that if you are close to a radio station, they do not have good rf rejection, and their is a weakness in the multi pin cable . Other than that there are a ton of them around, they were very popular back in the ADAT days. most of the noise problems are more of an issue in recording than PA.

I tend to like the 1642 as a better upgrade, if you look on ebay all of these mixers come up all the time. you could also look at the SR24.4 or sr32.4

the other option would be to look at the earlier version 01v, they also are hovering pretty low these days, and from a practical standpoint, for PA there is not a lot of difference that the 96 will make

Here is a thread that you might find useful

http://srforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/mv/msg/21293/0/0/0/

Sharyn


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## avkid (Apr 14, 2007)

jkowtko said:


> Ok, so DIs along with a modest level board might work ... however I need to take into account the cost of the DIs ($150 / 8 output channels?)


Considering that you would spend an average of $320 on 8 individual boxes I would say that it's a pretty good deal.
8 boxes at $40 ea=$320


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## jkowtko (Apr 15, 2007)

On the question of balanced outputs, will an EQ work in place of a DI unit? I'm planning to get a bunch of DBX231s to EQ the room and could fairly easily get enough to cover all eight output channels. Will this work?

Thanks. John


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## avkid (Apr 15, 2007)

jkowtko said:


> will an EQ work in place of a DI unit? I'm planning to get a bunch of DBX231s to EQ the room and could fairly easily get enough to cover all eight output channels. Will this work?
> Thanks. John


If the power supply is good and quiet it will work well.


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## jkowtko (Nov 8, 2007)

Okay, I'm getting a bit frustrated with low-end analog equipment ... 

For our upcoming production of Smokey Joe's Cafe I will be attempting to fully mic the band (7 mics on drums, plus Sax, guitar, bass and keyboards) and 8 singer/actors with wireless, and 1-2 stage mics on stands. 

I've just finished a massive assault on eBay and Craigslist and bought four DBX266xls to give me gating and compression to cover the drum mikes and the sax (the others will be line outs) and four Lexicon FX units to provide 2 reverbs for vocals and two for instruments. These will run on two boards -- Mackie CFX-16 and CFX-20, which I will use for vocals and band, respectively. I actually have two complete sound systems running in the house ... SRM450s with subs for the band, placed well upstage where the band is located ... and the standard 5 channel FOH setup with SRM450s in center and wings, and SRM350s in the rear.

Combine that with a myriad of cables to connect all of these processors up to the boards, and a lot of shop work to build equipment racks out of plywood, and I'm thinking I should have just bought a Yamaha 01v96 ... :|

So, I may be buying a Yamaha 01v96 very soon. If this show was another few weeks off I might try to get it for this show. But I still need to do a bit more research.

A couple questions for whoever has used the Yamaha 01v96 ... 
1) are the gate/compressors and FX engines acceptable for use in live performances as compared to DBX 266XLs and Lexicon MX200? Or do you notice a difference to the point where you would still want to use an outboard unit?

2) How are the onboard EQs? When I saw Curtains in NYC I spoke to the sound guy who showed me the group EQs he used on his P1MD ... they looked really handy, so I would expect to do the same here.

3) Is there any aspect of the 01v96 that you didn't like from a sound quality perspective, making you want to use an analog board instead?

4) Does the "user layer" give you enough flexibility for setting up DCAs, or are there specific things you couldn't do?

Thanks. John


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## mixmaster (Nov 8, 2007)

jkowtko said:


> Okay, I'm getting a bit frustrated with low-end analog equipment ...
> For our upcoming production of Smokey Joe's Cafe I will be attempting to fully mic the band (7 mics on drums, plus Sax, guitar, bass and keyboards) and 8 singer/actors with wireless, and 1-2 stage mics on stands.
> I've just finished a massive assault on eBay and Craigslist and bought four DBX266xls to give me gating and compression to cover the drum mikes and the sax (the others will be line outs) and four Lexicon FX units to provide 2 reverbs for vocals and two for instruments. These will run on two boards -- Mackie CFX-16 and CFX-20, which I will use for vocals and band, respectively. I actually have two complete sound systems running in the house ... SRM450s with subs for the band, placed well upstage where the band is located ... and the standard 5 channel FOH setup with SRM450s in center and wings, and SRM350s in the rear.
> Combine that with a myriad of cables to connect all of these processors up to the boards, and a lot of shop work to build equipment racks out of plywood, and I'm thinking I should have just bought a Yamaha 01v96 ... :|
> ...



I used the 01v96 for two years with a small band doing local gigs. It was a great little board to work with. Here are my opinions
1 comps, gates, fx, they worked fine for me. Certainly better than dragging outboard effects racks around. The display for comps/gates took a bit of getting used to but it was a minor issue.
2 EQ is 4 band, fully parametric. what else could you need. Thats what the best analog boards have. I think AandH and Soundcraft make better sounding ones on their big boards but that costs way more than you a talking about spending. I liked having both the picture of the curve and numerical information in the display although navigating the controls with the arrow buttons is tough to do in the dark and on the fly. Course, if we had gotten sound checks all the time.......
3 Sound quality was fine as compared to similar price boards. The pre-amps were a bit noisy but that is a problem with most Yamaha consoles and carefull attention to gain structure seemed to help minimize th problem.
4 I didn't use the user layer or DCA so I can't comment 

Over all, impressions were favorable. I liked the ability to unload 2 cases ( console, and cd player) plug in the snake and be ready for sound check in 15 min. I really liked having 4 band EQs on the outputs. I could save my monitor and FOH eq settings and recall them all instantly, made sound checks faster. Mostly I was able to do without carrying GEQs. 
My only complaint was that the input gains were not digitally controlled as they are on the LS9. 

I would be more than happy to use that board again. best of luck to you.


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## jkowtko (Nov 30, 2007)

Just a quick recap on the 01v96 capacity:

With a vanilla board and one Behringer ADA8000 unit, I will have 
- 24 input channels with 20 mic preamps
- 12 omni outs in addition to LR

With an expansion card and up to two more ADA8000s I can add up to 16 more inputs AND 16 more outputs, for a total of 40 input channels (with 28 mic preamps) and 28 omni outputs plus LR

Is the above correct?

Any comments on the quality of the ADA8000 preamps vs the onboard ones?

Thanks. John


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## Hughesie (Dec 1, 2007)

gafftaper said:


> Actually that may be the worst part. Most Mackie consoles makes some sense. The CFX-20 for example's got 20 channels and it has some on board effects. Yamaha on the other hand makes no sense at all... PM5D-RH. So you are never sure if you are supposed to know what the code means or not.



mackie 1402?

14 channels 2 outputs

no 14 channels 4 outputs, not all is so well thought out in the world of sound


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## avkid (Dec 1, 2007)

Hughesie89 said:


> mackie 1402?
> 14 channels 2 outputs
> no 14 channels 4 outputs, not all is so well thought out in the world of sound


It is 14 channels.
1-6 mono and 8-14 stereo
The two is 2 bus.


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## avkid (Dec 1, 2007)

gafftaper said:


> Yamaha on the other hand makes no sense at all... PM5D-RH.


Umm..wrong.

Ever heard of the PM1,2,3, or 4

It's version 5 of the PM series.


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## soundlight (Dec 2, 2007)

And RH is Remote Headamp


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## mixmaster (Dec 4, 2007)

jkowtko said:


> Just a quick recap on the 01v96 capacity:
> With a vanilla board and one Behringer ADA8000 unit, I will have
> - 24 input channels with 20 mic preamps
> - 12 omni outs in addition to LR
> ...



John,
I don't recall how the expansion worked on the 01v. I never needed to use it. However, that seems like an awfully lot for that board to do. I'd think probably not.
Anyway, be careful buying lots of expanders and and extra preamps right off the bat. If you fill up your board's expansion capabilities right away, you have no room for whatever comes up down the road. Something will, I guarantee. Even if the 01v could grow hat much, you would have to flip though a lot of layers to do a big mix. Even on the 01v that could make navigating the board to dial up a mix difficult.
If you think you need that many channels in or out right now look at something that can match your needs partly or completely unexpanded. It may well be cheaper in the long run. If you want to stay digital and see yourself needing 40 channels I'd look at an LS9-32 with an expansion card. The base console has 32 inputs and 12 outputs for around $8k on the street. Even if you use one card slot to get to 40 inputs, you still have two more slots open and a whole host of extra features, and room to grow. It's also a lot easier to hook up and carry around than a board and a whole rack of preamps.
Best of Luck


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## jkowtko (Dec 5, 2007)

That's actually a good point I just thought about recently -- can these boards' processors get overloaded with too much signal path to handle? Or when they say the MY16AT card will handle 16 I/O's at 48kHz, that the board will handle it as well?

As far as faders, I think I'm actually okay. 8 of the input channels I would use in the expansion I/O is for the sound effects PC which has 8 discrete outputs for sound placement. (I'm even thinking I can buy a PCI ADAT card and go digital directly from the PC to the mixer). Anyway, these 8 input channel fader positions are mostly "set it and forget it" so I can bury them on 17-32.

If I mic a band and a set of actors, I would plan to use 1-16 on the wireless and 17-32 for the band.

Other inputs such as God mic and CDs I can put on 17-32.

The only time I would get into difficulty is if the wireless plus reverb totals more than 16 inputs, since I would want to control them all at once.

So one thought is to change the patching for every scene snapshot, to make sure I route the inputs I need for that scene to channels 1-16 so I can work with them together. I think that would make it difficult for the operator to remember what's assigned where for what scene, but technically it should work, and that's what is traditionally done with VCAs, no?

I am also very interested in the DCA capabilities of the "user" layer ... haven't been able to gather much from the docs on that. If there is any better explanation on how this works and how to configure it I would be interested in reading it. (I know in other posts people have described it, but I'm still not clear ...)

Thanks. John


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## SHARYNF (Dec 6, 2007)

I'd suggest you visit Prosoundweb and do a search on the 01v96. you would be surprised how many sound companies use these with the expansion units 

Sharyn


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## jkowtko (Dec 7, 2007)

I'll take your word for it Sharon ... I'm sold on the 01v96 as probably the best option for entry-level digital board ... also very efficient on space usage. I'm now starting to look for a good deal on a new or used unit ... hope to have it on hand for Aida in the spring ...

Thanks. John


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## SHARYNF (Dec 9, 2007)

Look on Ebay but also go to the marketplace section on Prosound and you can post a wanted to buy I'd say the range is about 1800 to 2100, before the add ins typically 
You might be able to get someone who is upgrading

Sharyn


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## avkid (Dec 9, 2007)

SHARYNF said:


> go to the marketplace section on Prosound and you can post a wanted to buy


Definitely the place to sell to and buy, 90% safer than eBay.

Sound Art is selling an original 01V for $1400


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## jkowtko (Dec 10, 2007)

I found one from a discount authorized dealer ... new ... 1800, no tax or shipping


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## jkowtko (Dec 10, 2007)

Okay, I just ordered the board. I haven't bought the Behringer ADA8000's yet, but the sales guy, who doesn't carry Behringer, recommended the Presonus Digimax(?). About three times the price but in his opinion the Behringer preamps just weren't very good.

Can someone who's had experience with the below items give me your opinion on the relative quality of the mic pre-amps on:

- Mackie CFX-20 
- Yamaha 01v96
- Behringer ADA8000
- Presonus

I just want to understand the different in sound quality, noise, range, etc, that I shoudl expect to experience between the above options relative to what I have now. 

Thanks. John


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## avkid (Dec 10, 2007)

jkowtko said:


> Okay, I just ordered the board. I haven't bought the Behringer ADA8000's yet, but the sales guy, who doesn't carry Behringer, recommended the Presonus Digimax(?). About three times the price but in his opinion the Behringer preamps just weren't very good.


He's trying to sell you something more expensive, period.

The pickiest guy I know at this level uses the Behringer, and he hates almost everything.

It's ridiculous to spend that much on what is essentially an add-on.
Just paint over the logos with an airbrush if it's too embarrassing to be seen with Behringer.


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## jkowtko (Dec 12, 2007)

I am getting a digital board for myself, but the "permanent" board in the theater is currently a Mackie CFX-20. 

So back to the issue of upgrading the CFX, I would like to look for a replacement for the CFX-20 that is a higher quality board with smaller footprint, which will be more suitable all-around for general theater use. I will bring in my digital board for the big musicals, but for all other activities at this theater I think a 16 channel board would work out just fine. However I do still need 8 discretely addressable outputs from the board ....

And I don't want to spend more than several hundred dollars for this board -- used is okay.

- One option is to swap in my CFX-16 for the CFX-20, to save some space. I also bought a gig bag for the CFX-16 so it storage will be easy when I'm using the digital.

- I have been told that the Mackie 1604 has much better pre-amps and overall sound quality than the CFX boards, and even better than the MixWizard. Can anyone offer opinions on the 1604 vs. CFX or MW? Is there a difference between the VLZ3 versions and the prior versions? How about 1604 vs 1642?

- And, of course, any other votes for good boards to look at that will have close to the 19" rack mount footprint?

Thanks. John


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## soundlight (Dec 12, 2007)

Soundcraft FX16ii. Great board. I used the original FX16 for a while, but the FX16ii has better sounding preamps, IMO. And the built in Lexicon effects are some of the best built-in effects that I've used.


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## jkowtko (Dec 12, 2007)

That board looks really nice, but I don't see 8 discrete output channels ....


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## soundlight (Dec 12, 2007)

If some of your 8 discreet outs go to effects speakers that only ever recieve sound cues, use the direct outs in post-fader mode.


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## jkowtko (Dec 12, 2007)

Hmmm ... that might just do it. I'll take a good look this one tonight. Thanks for the info.


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## soundlight (Dec 12, 2007)

My favorite thing about the FX16 is that is has individual direct outs. It was designed as a console that can record your live performance, and I've seen it as a front end in a few project studios because of the incredibly awesome preamps for such a small board, and the fact that everything can be run as direct outs that are fader-controllable.


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## jkowtko (May 29, 2008)

After this current production and looking at the next year or two, and the booth space available, I think I would like to go for a 24 channel [analog] board. One significant criteria is that I would like to get as much metering per input channel as possible -- this has been a real pain point for me. I'm giving up the desire to have jacks on top ... with a 24" deep counter (which I'm hoping I can build) I will have some room to get behind the board when needed.

I'd like to keep the dimensions to under 24" deep, and 36" wide. I'd also like to keep the price under $2000 used (and preferably closer to $1k if possible). 

The A&H GL2400-24 is about the right size, has four meter lights per channel, and is therefore the front contender for me.

Any other suggestions as to what I should be looking at?

Thanks. John


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## howlingwolf487 (May 30, 2008)

The GL2800 is a good step up...you can find them used, as well, for a good bit cheaper than retail. Those exra subgroups can come in very handy for mixing ensembles as well as if the space is used for any other type of performance (concert, etc.).


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## jkowtko (May 30, 2008)

Yes, wouldn't that be nice. I saw those from the start. But I think it's a little too deep -- and definitely much more expensive than the 2400.

I know the Soundcraft Live 8 has a full meter bridge, but that's a fairly big board ... the 24 channel version looked to be about 30" deep and 48" wide -- definitely too big for our space.

Also, fyi I use the groups and auxes to route to the individual speakers ... I need to be able to run a multi-channel system, not stereo or LRC. When routing sound effects for our dramas I need discrete channel routing to each of the 6 or 8 (with FX speakers) output channels. Now if there was a board with 6 or 8 matrix outs on it, then I could actually use the groups as groups. Other than the very large analog boards, I think the LS9 digital is the only other option here .... or start going to VCAs. But again, those boards are physicall too big (and too expensive for this upgrade).


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## jkowtko (Jul 11, 2008)

Okay, I just bought a used Soundcraft LX7-24 (got a good deal from a compassionate local church who had recently upgraded to a Live8-32), installed it for the kids' show rehearsal this morning and am very pleased 

My eventual goal will be the A&H GL2200 or GL2400, 24 or 32 channels. What the LX7 is still lacking for me is:

* stereo channels on the main channel strip (LX7 has limited-routing stereo channels
with pots located in the mains section) resulting in 2 less "full" channels than A&H
* channel meters (LX7 has only peak indicator, whereas A&H has 4-segment LEDs)
* Pad and polarity switches on input channels
* Phantom power on individual channels (LX7 is entire board on/off)
* 2-track out for recording performances (LX7 has 2-track ins only ... go figure)
* aux/group reverse ... a very nice flexibility feature of the A&H boards

Otherwise, the LX7 has very nice controls, and also has channel route to Mono, which the A&H does not. But I can forgive that if I get the other features listed above.

I'll expect a used A&H to cost me a few hundred dollars more than the LX7 ... but probably worth it for the features listed above. In the meantime the LX7 will serve us well for all shows in the upcoming season.

-- John

PS: The CFX-20 is up for sale on Craigslist ... not thrilled with the idea of shipping it though, but if you live in the SF Bay Area and need one ....


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## SHARYNF (Jul 11, 2008)

So what happened to your 01v96 I would have thought that with the adat expsnsion cards, and Behringer ada8000 you could route things to your hearts content using the adat outs to the adat in on the behringher, and use the studio software with a computer monitor to give you metering in all inputs

sharyn


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## waynehoskins (Jul 11, 2008)

Glad to hear you like the LX7. I just started reading this thread today, but from Page One my instinct was that a GL2K or 3K would be a perfect fit.

My go-to board (and herein comes the disclaimer that I am the Crazy Analog Guy) would be a GL4K. 10 auxes, 8 groups, matrix, good stuff. Perfect fit for both theatre and rock-and-roll and church.

The LX7 is a good series, equivalent to the GL2K line. I'm too used to A&H to drive one, though: the mid-sweeps are scaled differently, and the little oval buttons are in the wrong places and not square, they're oval. Good boards, though.

I'd personally take a GL2K and a whole rack of outboard over a compact digital board, but that's just me, 'cause I'm used to reaching for discrete knobs.

Hope the LX7 does well for you!


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## jkowtko (Jul 12, 2008)

SHARYNF said:


> So what happened to your 01v96 I would have thought that with the adat expsnsion cards, and Behringer ada8000 you could route things to your hearts content using the adat outs to the adat in on the behringher, and use the studio software with a computer monitor to give you metering in all inputs
> 
> sharyn



Hi Sharyn,

The 01v96 is mine  ... not the theater's. I had originally expected to bring in the Yamaha for productions, but after a couple of bouts with the TD on ad-hoc equipment usage without my knowledge, lack of tidiness in the booth and theater, etc, I've decided I won't leave my board at the theater at all. I'll bring it in for special events, and I will use it for other gigs outside the theater (I've started to help out at my kids' schools).

-- John


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## jkowtko (Jul 12, 2008)

waynehoskins said:


> Glad to hear you like the LX7. I just started reading this thread today, but from Page One my instinct was that a GL2K or 3K would be a perfect fit.
> 
> My go-to board (and herein comes the disclaimer that I am the Crazy Analog Guy) would be a GL4K. 10 auxes, 8 groups, matrix, good stuff. Perfect fit for both theatre and rock-and-roll and church.
> 
> ...



There is a GL3300-24 sitting at the local music store where it's been for over a year ... I'll bet I could pick that up for close to $1000, but it's pretty big in size and lacks a couple of things that the GL2200 has, so I'm thinking pass.

Fyi, my size restrictions did relax quite a bit recently. The TD tore the main booth apart and I am able to set up a 2.5' x 8' table to put the sound equipment on. So theoretically I can now comfortably hold a 4 foot board up to 30 inches deep ... that covers a lot of ground. I just got this going a few days ago and still have to place the rack equipment properly, so maybe in another month or two I'll be ready to start hunting seriously for that 32 channel GL2k.

The one big restriction I have is $$. This theater has NOOOO money for capital sound equipment purchases, so I have to buy in small chunks to be able to absorb the costs. Unfortunately that rules out $2k+ boards right now.

-- John


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