# Raising the Palace Theatre NYC



## derekleffew (Jan 8, 2022)

Iconic Broadway theater being lifted 30 feet above Times Square

Lifting the Palace Theatre will preserve the iconic venue while freeing up ground-floor space for commercial use.



abc7ny.com






> TIMES SQUARE (WABC) -- A massive construction maneuver is now underway to hoist the iconic Palace Theatre three stories up.
> 
> On Friday morning, constructions crews began lifting the iconic theater a full 30 feet to its new home - floating above Times Square.
> 
> ...


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## JonCarter (Jan 8, 2022)

Only in New York . . .


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## RonHebbard (Jan 9, 2022)

JonCarter said:


> Only in New York . . .


* @JonCarter * In my limited understanding, there's only one pro' theatre actually on Broadway, the remainder are on adjacent side streets.
Once a theatre, and the land it sits on, are declared a Broadway theatre, that's a forever / sacred declaration.
If a developer wants to purchase a long disused, derelict, vacant Broadway theatre, they can build a spiffy high-rise tower but it MUST contain a replacement Broadway theatre.
I can't recall the theatre's name but Broadway's Sunset Boulevard played in a theatre [Edit by Mod.: Minskoff Theatre 1994-97] whose basement was three stories above finished grade, orchestra level was four, the balcony was five.

Commercial tourist traps were at street level with high-dollar office space on the next floor up.

Normally when you show up with an 11 thousand pound fly piece, you're bringing in the heaviest flown piece in the production: Not so with Sunset. Our automated "On The Road" fly piece was number three at 11,000 pounds followed by the 14,000 pound "Pool Surround" at number two and the 20,000 pound two story flown Mansion with its 20,000 pounds of counter-weight for a total hung weight of 40,000 pounds.

It was impressive to see the lights come up on a two story mansion that wasn't there only moments before, even more so when it elevated ~20 feet and a (fully lit) scene played under it while a second scene performed simultaneously in the mansion. Patrons were awestruck when the still elevated mansion travelled upstage then flew out of sight with performers still on it.

You can't afford to duplicate a trick like that for an eight performance week in Fort Wayne.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard


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## SteveB (Jan 9, 2022)

I think this is the 2nd time this has been done, some other unused theater just east of Broadway was raised maybe 10'years ago, lobby and all. Or maybe this has just been in the planning stages for 10 years, have to look it up.

OK, my research tells me this is the same theater, it just took a long time to begin the work from when they announced it many years ago.


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## ScottT (Jan 10, 2022)

RonHebbard said:


> *@JonCarter * In my limited understanding, there's only one pro' theatre actually on Broadway, the remainder are on adjacent side streets.


There are 3 broadway theatres with street addresses on Broadway. Going from uptown to downtown:

Broadway
Winter Garden
Palace


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## TheaterEd (Jan 10, 2022)

derekleffew said:


> Iconic Broadway theater being lifted 30 feet above Times Square
> 
> Lifting the Palace Theatre will preserve the iconic venue while freeing up ground-floor space for commercial use.
> 
> ...


Whew. I first read the title as "Razing the Palace Theatre". Small, but Very important difference!


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## Scarrgo (Jan 10, 2022)

Here in Detroit, we move theaters....just a fun story...






Gem Theatre in Detroit, MI - Cinema Treasures

Opened in 1928 as the Little Theatre, for a private women's group called the 20th Century Club, with a performance of "Cyrano de Bergerac", the Gem...


cinematreasures.org





Sean...


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## Craig Hauber (Jan 12, 2022)

RonHebbard said:


> It was impressive to see the lights come up on a two story mansion that wasn't there only moments before, even more so when it elevated ~20 feet and a (fully lit) scene played under it while a second scene performed simultaneously in the mansion. Patrons were awestruck when the still elevated mansion travelled upstage then flew out of sight with performers still on it.


Recalling the first time I saw that scene still gives me goosebumps.
-I was actually prepared to be bored when dragged to see Sunset all those years ago. (It wasn't exactly one of my favorites back then)
Now that moment still comes to mind every time a designer has an off-the-wall idea.
Everyone else in the meeting is all about "no" or "can't happen".
-I'm usually "Give me a few moments to figure it out" as having seen that makes me realize anything is possible.

(Of course the bean-counters always have the final say)


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## RonHebbard (Jan 13, 2022)

Craig Hauber said:


> Recalling the first time I saw that scene still gives me goosebumps.
> -I was actually prepared to be bored when dragged to see Sunset all those years ago. (It wasn't exactly one of my favorites back then)
> Now that moment still comes to mind every time a designer has an off-the-wall idea.
> Everyone else in the meeting is all about "no" or "can't happen".
> ...


From memory it flew on six cables, each ~1.25" OD & routed over 12 two foot diameter sheaves. 
They were essentially flying an enormous pair of drawer slides and the mansion was the drawer. The floor of the mansion was raked and housed parts of three LX pipes within it to light scenes beneath both when it was partially elevated as well as when it was totally out of sight. 

There were six vertical I beam tracks forming the onstage edges of ~the 2nd, 4th, and 6th legs. 
Remember stage level was three stories above grade. 
The six vertical I beams went down to solid bedrock,  passing through second story offices and ground level tourist traps along the way. 
Their upper ends passed through the first and second grids ending at the tertiary grid. 
One two foot diameter sheave topped each of the six verticals. 

USC six more vertical I beams also began at bedrock and ended at the tertiary grid, with each vertical supporting another two foot diameter sheave. Again from memory, USC was a counterweight carriage ~six feet wide supporting ~12 columns of ~fifty pound stage weights. 
USC at deck level was a hydraulic winch with an ~thirty inch diameter disc brake clamped by two pairs of hydraulic brake pads. 

Most of the flown items were supported by the primary grid with odd numbered pull lines and arbors SR of the mansion's counterweights and even numbered lines and arbors SL of the mansion's counterweights. 
The 14,000 pound 'pool surround' + our 11,000 pound automated 'On The Road' piece were supported by the secondary grid. 
The 20,000 pound two story mansion and its 20,000 pound counter weight were the only items supported by the tertiary grid. 
Three days were allowed in the load-in schedule for us to get our piece up, assembled, tested, flashed out, ran several times, and the locals brought up to speed. We bought them almost two days by being up, assembled and darn near ready to rock the first day with less than two hours of flashing LX and speakers remaining for the second day. 
The other four I flew with hit the bars and sushi establishments. 
I invested my pre paid two nights in a downtown hotel and two days touring the three grids with a fellow from Feller who'd all but been living up there for several months. 

I don't believe colleges and universities offered the equivalent of what I was exposed to in two days. 
Toodleoo! 
Ron Hebbard


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## soundman (Jan 13, 2022)

RonHebbard said:


> From memory it flew on six cables, each ~1.25" OD & routed over 12 two foot diameter sheaves.
> They were essentially flying an enormous pair of drawer slides and the mansion was the drawer. The floor of the mansion was raked and housed parts of three LX pipes within it to light scenes beneath both when it was partially elevated as well as when it was totally out of sight.
> 
> There were six vertical I beam tracks forming the onstage edges of ~the 2nd, 4th, and 6th legs.
> ...


I would LOVE to see the drawing packet for that project. I've done plenty of bid dumb and stupid stuff in arenas but there is always a limit to what can be done as far as building mods go. I've cut some holes in catwalks and the like but never got to install extra grids or have a venue add steel like the Phantom points. Sending a rig plot with 80 two tons on it was always quick to get a follow up call from a building however...


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## RonHebbard (Jan 13, 2022)

soundman said:


> I would LOVE to see the drawing packet for that project. I've done plenty of bid dumb and stupid stuff in arenas but there is always a limit to what can be done as far as building mods go. I've cut some holes in catwalks and the like but never got to install extra grids or have a venue add steel like the Phantom points. Sending a rig plot with 80 two tons on it was always quick to get a follow up call from a building however...


* @soundman* At the time, I believe the load in for the Broadway production of Sunset Boulevard held the record for Broadway's longest load in. The Minskoff was closing for ~a year to totally renovate its FOH, including new seats, rakes, and changes to aisles. Since they were going to be closed for a year it was decided to install an opaque poly dust barrier across the prosc' and begin Sunset's load in while the FOH was still being completed. 

When it comes to numbers of 1 and 2 ton Loadstars in one production, did you see how many there were in the US touring rig of 'Starlight Express'? I can't recall but it was something like 60 and they made quite the racket when all of them ran simultaneously to hoist Starlight's sub grid up to performance height.

*@Craig Hauber* Did you see the original LA production or the Broadway production? The scenery and automation shop I was with built the 'On The Road' automated fly piece for Broadway. they had gone with the low bidder for LA and things didn't go well. 

Our shop also built the 'On The Road' fly piece a second time for Toronto. 
I supervised the Toronto install then its takeout and load in in Vancouver. 
I don't recall where it went after Vancouver. 
Toodleoo! 
Ron Hebbard


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## halenono (Jan 13, 2022)

Fascinating stuff about Sunset. Thanks @RonHebbard. I found this article about the London production that discusses some of the technical challenges: https://www.theatrecrafts.com/archive/documents/lsi_aug1993_sunsetboulevard.pdf
This article talks about how the high-cost of the load-in made touring it unfeasible: https://bitn.blog/2018/01/02/up-close-and-personal-with-the-set-of-sunset-boulevard/


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## RonHebbard (Jan 13, 2022)

halenono said:


> Fascinating stuff about Sunset. Thanks @RonHebbard. I found this article about the London production that discusses some of the technical challenges: https://www.theatrecrafts.com/archive/documents/lsi_aug1993_sunsetboulevard.pdf
> This article talks about how the high-cost of the load-in made touring it unfeasible: https://bitn.blog/2018/01/02/up-close-and-personal-with-the-set-of-sunset-boulevard/


 *@halenono* The plan for the U.S. tour was to have the two story mansion totally ground supported on two, hydraulic accumulator powered lifts custom built by Canada's Handling Specialties in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada; the same company who built the two accumulator powered Barricades for the sit down and touring productions of Les Mis (Sp?) . Our shop won the toss to build two touring decks each approximately 120' wide by 60' deep. Each deck was approximately 16" thick and constructed of welded aluminum modules each fully topped with HEAVY ~1.25" Arboron to support the weight of the two mobile loaded accumulator powered lifts. Our shop also built two of each heavy fly piece. 

Feller provided the four mechanically synchronized DC servos to motivate the two lifts US / DS and we provided one AC servo to open and close a load rated trap ~center stage; our AC servos could provide more grunt in a shallower frame size. 

Four of the tour's road crew spent about a week in our shop labelling everything. 
Shows only generate revenue while they're performing. The plan was to close Saturday evening in one city and open the following Monday in the next. The touring crew would supervise the load out, party, then grab a little sleep and supervise the in at the next venue. 
All of the one set was marked in silver, all of the other in gold with everything that had to move immediately to the next venue labelled in blue. The two sets were to leap frog each other across North America.

The two decks left our shop in a never ending stream of 53' trailers bound for a final fit up and rehearsals in Denver. 
While both the touring Sunsets were in Denver, another of Sir Andrew's mega musicals (Whistle Down The Wind possibly) was 'poo poo'd during out of town previews in Boston. This purportedly so annoyed Sir Andrew that he closed ALL his North American productions, took his toys, and went home (Fornicate the unappreciative North American savages). 
The last I heard, both the touring Sunset sets were parked in storage in Denver. 
Toodleoo! 
Ron Hebbard


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## Craig Hauber (Jan 17, 2022)

RonHebbard said:


> * @soundman* At the time, I believe the load in for the Broadway production of Sunset Boulevard held the record for Broadway's longest load in. The Minskoff was closing for ~a year to totally renovate its FOH, including new seats, rakes, and changes to aisles. Since they were going to be closed for a year it was decided to install an opaque poly dust barrier across the prosc' and begin Sunset's load in while the FOH was still being completed.
> 
> When it comes to numbers of 1 and 2 ton Loadstars in one production, did you see how many there were in the US touring rig of 'Starlight Express'? I can't recall but it was something like 60 and they made quite the racket when all of them ran simultaneously to hoist Starlight's sub grid up to performance height.
> 
> ...


I just saw what I assume was a tour. -In Minneapolis in 1996 (-ish). trying to piece together my schedule in retrospect is tough -I was between 2 concert tours as mix "person". -Hesitate to use the title "engineer" as it seems trite when compared to the real engineering described in your postings regarding this!
Theater didn't captivate me before then like it does now -thanks in part to seeing shows like this
(A little sad because it now looks like I missed-out on a lot when I was living in the Toronto area through the late 80's/early 90's. )


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## Ted jones (Jan 19, 2022)

JonCarter said:


> Only in New York . . .


Maybe Chicago....

We did raise a river here. It took a lot of concrete overshoes, but it worked!

T


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## TimMc (Jan 19, 2022)

Ted jones said:


> Maybe Chicago....
> 
> We did raise a river here. It took a lot of concrete overshoes, but it worked!
> 
> T


"Mayor Daley has new shoes for you!"


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## Ted jones (Jan 19, 2022)

TimMc said:


> "Mayor Daley has new shoes for you!"


I miss both of them.


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## Jay Ashworth (Jan 26, 2022)

RonHebbard said:


> From memory it flew on six cables, each ~1.25" OD & routed over 12 two foot diameter sheaves.
> They were essentially flying an enormous pair of drawer slides and the mansion was the drawer. The floor of the mansion was raked and housed parts of three LX pipes within it to light scenes beneath both when it was partially elevated as well as when it was totally out of sight.
> 
> There were six vertical I beam tracks forming the onstage edges of ~the 2nd, 4th, and 6th legs.
> ...


Well, Jeezus; I guess you only build that when you're doing 8 shows a week for 20 years...


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