# Don't leave your lights on too long....



## gafftapegreenia

Today I came into the theatre at 2 PM after my classes for my schedualed crew hours. I noticed a faint "burning rubbery" smell, but we had been cutting PVC so I dismissed it, however not till after checking the booms where there were many cables close to the lights..nothing there. As the hours went by, a few people came into the theatre and commented it smelled odd...again the PCV explanation. Finally, around 4:45, one of the head techs went up to the catwalk to turn on the intels. We found the source of our problems. For some reason, all the S4's on the fourth catwalk were running very very hot. Even the pipe railing they were all hanging on was toasty. On the pipe is about twenty or so 575 watt Source 4's. These had been on, not even at full, since probably 9 ar 10 AM. What gets me is that we do this on a nearly daily basis, and this is the first time something like this has happened.


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## Charc

gafftapegreenia said:


> Today I came into the theatre at 2 PM after my classes for my schedualed crew hours. I noticed a faint "burning rubbery" smell, but we had been cutting PVC so I dismissed it, however not till after checking the booms where there were many cables close to the lights..nothing there. As the hours went by, a few people came into the theatre and commented it smelled odd...again the PCV explanation. Finally, around 4:45, one of the head techs went up to the catwalk to turn on the intels. We found the source of our problems. For some reason, all the S4's on the fourth catwalk were running very very hot. Even the pipe railing they were all hanging on was toasty. On the pipe is about twenty or so 575 watt Source 4's. These had been on, not even at full, since probably 9 ar 10 AM. What gets me is that we do this on a nearly daily basis, and this is the first time something like this has happened.



You can tell when I hang a light that hasn't been in the air for awhile. The first 10 minutes you can smell the dust burning off...


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## derekleffew

A certain casino in Las Vegas has 375W and 575W SourceFours™ running between 75-90% 24 hours a day/7 days a week. Only time they're not on is when the lamp fails, or once a year when they're "dusted."

gafftapegreenia, was there something different with the HVAC system today? Anyone comment on how hot or cold it was, indoors or out? And why do you keep expensive lamps burning for that long on a regular basis?


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## gafftapegreenia

Hmm, maybe with the weather getting colder the HVAC changed in the theatre, not sure.

Why are they running so often? Well, it's a combination of a) the worklight PAR's on the electrics are either burned out or need a re-wire, or simply not hanging b) the worklight channels aren't programmed into the Unison system on the setting they should be- so no one uses them, and c) what I call the "pods", which are just architectural PAR 56 units hanging from the 2nd catwalk are either dead or not patched into the daily system. Thus, where we could have over 20 PAR 56s and 64s lighting our stage, we don't, because no one has taken the time to change it. Well, as I've said, that someone will be me, however most of my time gets eaten being one of the "go-to" guys for electrical.


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## icewolf08

You know, if you actually stay on top of changing out dead work light lamps it is much less of a hassle than letting them all die. As for the unison system, why would you ever reprogram the work lights? The work lights should be one of the few things that doesn't change on a regular basis.


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## gafftapegreenia

Icewolf, you act like I'm the one that let these things happen. I don't have answers for you other than sometimes other people let stuff slip. You know how people in this industry can get into habits and patterns where things that other people would consider essentials do not take place. Yes, I agree about the PAR's, but at this point someone (me) has to do all the hard work because other people before me didn't keep up.


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## derekleffew

gafftapegreenia, every time I read one of your posts I think more that you are at the wrong school. 

A) You're too good for them
B) We're only hearing your side of things
C) Your professors don't know how to teach
D) Your staff doesn't know how to run a theatre/PAC
E) You should be in a place where you're taught what and how to do
F) You should go back to HS with Charcoaldabs so at least he'd have help and company

So which one(s) of the above is/are the best answer(s)? 

I'm now going to look up your school, and give the faculty and staff a good talking to!


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## gafftaper

gafftapegreenia said:


> You know how people in this industry can get into habits and patterns where things that other people would consider essentials do not take place.



Actually... No. That's how students in a high school or college program that is poorly run act. People in the industry who act like that tend to not have jobs for long. 

Like Derek, I'm concerned about your school. It makes no sense at all to be burning up HPL lamps when there is a perfectly good work light option available. What are you going to do when the S4's burn out? My T.D. when I was in college never would have let us run the stage lights for work lights. If they works needed to be fixed we fixed them. If there were no students around, he climbed the ladder and fixed them himself. The very second we finished focusing he would always yell, "Save the lamps and save the dimmers!" Which was his way of saying go to work lights. I didn't allow it in my high school program and I won't be allowing it in my new theater either. Works are there for a reason. Save your budget and use them. 

Finally, there are your comments about how no one will do the hard work... Look at it this way, someday You'll get a job and they won't. Laziness does not pay well in this industry.


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## PadawanGeek

charcoaldabs said:


> You can tell when I hang a light that hasn't been in the air for awhile. The first 10 minutes you can smell the dust burning off...



That also happens too me. I found a Source 4 backstage and our admin said it was ours but it had been in the other building, do I plugged it in and at first I thought there was somthing like a piece of paper in there bet then I'm like, "Oh wait, its been sitting for who knows how long" finally the smell stopped.


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## Kelite

<Why are they running so often? Well, it's a combination of a) the worklight PAR's on the electrics are either burned out or need a re-wire, or simply not hanging b) the worklight channels aren't programmed into the Unison system on the setting they should be- so no one uses them, and c) what I call the "pods", which are just architectural PAR 56 units hanging from the 2nd catwalk are either dead or not patched into the daily system. >


Reminds me of the occassional color-scroller phone call during tech week (or day!) that follows this same path. Sadly- the power supply/s for the scrollers were not powered up, thus NO FANS providing ventilation for the gel strings.
Yes we expect gelstrings to 'someday' be replaced, but why rush it by turning on the PAR's/Lekos (with color scrollers)- leaving the scrollers OFF, and cooking the strings each day?

I sometimes wonder who interviews/oversees these people...


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## icewolf08

gafftapegreenia said:


> Icewolf, you act like I'm the one that let these things happen. I don't have answers for you other than sometimes other people let stuff slip. You know how people in this industry can get into habits and patterns where things that other people would consider essentials do not take place. Yes, I agree about the PAR's, but at this point someone (me) has to do all the hard work because other people before me didn't keep up.



I am not saying you are the one who lets them happen, but if you are the primary person who people go to when they need tech help, and if you are the one who notices these things, then it is basically on your shoulders. Sure, there are days that I just don't feel like getting setup to fix worklights, but then I come in the next day and anther is out. Besides, If I don't stay on top of things like work lights, the scene shop get mad.

If you pick up the slack where other people slip, it makes you look better. You might be worn out at the end of the day, but as gaff said, people with the attitude that "things slip and it isn't my problem" are not the first choice to get hired.

Also have you gone to the people in charge at your theatre to tell them that this is a problem? There are two really pertinent proverbs that apply here: "If not now, when?" and "If not me, then who?" Sure, your source fours are going to be hot after being on all day. If you ask us for advice and tell us that you have a great worklight system, but the lamps are dead and some need service, the advice we give is probably going to be a unanimous "fix the worklights, that is what they are there for." If you can't do it yourself, tell the people in charge. If the people in charge are not willing to act, then there is a bigger problem, and that might answer Derek's question.


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## gafftaper

After reading Alex's post I want to repeat my point to my "Brother of the Tape"... please don't take my last post at all as a personal attack. I really question the leadership at your school. People who know what they are doing just DON'T allow things to get that bad. Yeah it's expensive to buy more lamps for the works but it's cheaper than buying HPL's AND lamps for the works! Yes it's a pain to rewire a dead lamp... but that's your job. TEACH students how to do the job right. Be a roll model for the right professional attitude. Slacking off just isn't acceptable out here in the real world. From your perspective it sounds like you are the only one working... that's great for you, but it's a terrible sign about the quality of education everyone else is getting. 

If they don't know how to properly maintain and operate a few lights in the theater, you have to ask, what else do they not know how to do?


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## derekleffew

gafftaper said:


> ...Be a roll model...


Gaff--
The only "roll model" I know would be the Pillsbury Dough Boy!

_Continuing on my never-ending quest make myself disliked, drag the thread off-topic, and discuss food, all in one short post.
_


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## gafftaper

derekleffew said:


> Gaff--
> The only "roll model" I know would be the Pillsbury Dough Boy!
> _Continuing on my never-ending quest make myself disliked, drag the thread off-topic, and discuss food, all in one short post.
> _



Actually you haven't seen me, I'm a bit of a roll model too... need to exercise and cut out the late night survival food. 

Looks like it's time to upgrade my spell checker to "meaning checker".


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## gafftapegreenia

Gafftaper: No offense was caused by your comments. Your comments about working hard and not being lazy, with its eventual payoffs are a philosophy I took to heart years ago, and aleady it has helped me meet people and get jobs. I can't agree more. I realize my comments about "laziness in the industry" set off quite a few sparks. Unfortunatly, when one sees enough laziness it starts to become the norm, and then one starts to forget how things are supposed to work. When it comes to lighting at my school, I seem to be the first person in a while with an interest in lighting that goes beyond just getting the next show in the air. I came into the program, and thus it was only natural for me to start taking care of the equipment, start making plans and getting things organized. Thats just who I am. 

Icewolf: I understand your point. I agree with the whole "It may not be my fault but it is my responsibility".


I guess in total I committed to this college because they sold me on their blend of hands on experience, technology and commitment to moving their program forward. Unfortunatly, there has just been one thing after another, most of them thusfar brought up for discussion, that have caused me to question this program. I'm not about to completely give up on it, however. I am currently planning an appointment with my advisor, who is also the assistant artistic director to address and discuss my concerns. Depending on the results of that meeting, I may have some tough choices to make.


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## Charc

gafftapegreenia said:


> Gafftaper: No offense was caused by your comments. Your comments about working hard and not being lazy, with its eventual payoffs are a philosophy I took to heart years ago, and aleady it has helped me meet people and get jobs. I can't agree more. I realize my comments about "laziness in the industry" set off quite a few sparks. Unfortunatly, when one sees enough laziness it starts to become the norm, and then one starts to forget how things are supposed to work. When it comes to lighting at my school, I seem to be the first person in a while with an interest in lighting that goes beyond just getting the next show in the air. I came into the program, and thus it was only natural for me to start taking care of the equipment, start making plans and getting things organized. Thats just who I am.
> Icewolf: I understand your point. I agree with the whole "It may not be my fault but it is my responsibility".
> I guess in total I committed to this college because they sold me on their blend of hands on experience, technology and commitment to moving their program forward. Unfortunatly, there has just been one thing after another, most of them thusfar brought up for discussion, that have caused me to question this program. I'm not about to completely give up on it, however. I am currently planning an appointment with my advisor, who is also the assistant artistic director to address and discuss my concerns. Depending on the results of that meeting, I may have some tough choices to make.



Let us know how that turns out, and perhaps, if you decide the program really is not cutting it, a PM my way letting me know your opinions on "X" college might be in order.


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## gafftaper

Yeah definitely not an appropriate thing to post in public but please do share the name of the college in private. 

hmmm... are you my "gaff-brother" or "brother-in-tape"... interesting. 

Having seen a lot of college politics, I doubt you are going to see a lot of change by complaining to your adviser. The most you will get is a sympathetic ear of someone who also doesn't like the way things are but is powerless to change it. Probably the most powerful thing you could do would be to write a letter to the Division Dean (probably Humanities division). Even then it's not likely to do a lot but you never know they may be looking for one more reason to replace some people and your letter could be the key. I would be very careful to use specific examples of how the program is not properly training students and avoid using names. They get complaints all the time saying "my teacher was mean to me and gave me a bad grade"... you don't want to do that. You want to say, I'm disappointed in the program because it claimed to teach: a, b, and c. But it is failing to do those things because of reasons a, b, and c. 

If you want help writing such a letter just P.M. me.


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## Chaos is Born

I think the best phone call i ever received was from my boss after a night when i was there later than he was and there was a rehearsal in the theatre. 

I had been doing work around the building and had gone home before the rehearsal was over. I wasn't the only one on staff so nothing should go wrong. Well i wake up at 8:30 the next morning to a phone call from my boss going: "did you tell the community theatre they could use the stage lights?"... 

The stage lights, approximately 45 Source 4s in a general wash cool pattern had been left on overnight... and by the times on the security cameras had been on a total of 14 hours... 14 hours of burning gel and lamps in an empty theatre... 

It was a combination of things that cause this to have happened and to be over-looked. But it came down to the guy who was closing up at night not knowing how to turn the lights off and not calling one of the guys who did know how to turn the lights off to help him.


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## gafftaper

In the high school I used to teach at MANY people had access to the auditorium. I would come in and find that 40 S4's, 32 fresnels, and 4 electrics full of strip lights had been left on all night long. Guess who's budget the lamps came out of... not the schools. Anyway, there was a wall panel that allowed anyone to turn all the lights on to full. So I just started killing breakers. I would put up a few instruments that were far wider of a beam angle than is appropriate for the throw in order to wash the whole stage in dim light... just enough to make the random teacher happy. Every other breaker got shut off and the panel locked.

P.S. Gaff-Brother... That's the sort of grouchy thing real T.D.s do to protect their lamp inventory and equipment... as opposed to what you are being taught at your school.


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## Radiant

Went to church this morning and found our house lights and front stage lights, 32 x PAR56 500W, 10 x PAR64 1kW, and 6 x 1kW ERSs, basically faders 1-12, had been left on *since Thursday.* All at 100%. 
Besides electricity, which must be a pretty penny, 2 PAR56 lamps and 1 ERS burned out. I have no spare ERS lamps. Thanks.
We have fluorescent house lights that people can use to work, clean, etc. All accessible with handy on/off switches on the wall. But instead people get into the sound booth and start shoving faders. 
I need to clear it with staff, but I plan to turn off the breakers on the dimmer panels. But I know a lot of people will be upset that they can't get enormous amounts of light on any time they want, and I'll likely not be allowed to cut the breakers.


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## zwolf59661

In my high school auditorium, half the lights don't function properly. Just this past November, the whole system over heated a few days before a drama club production and we couldn't use the lights for a few days. And if we leave our only (minimally) working spotlight (out of three) on for more than five minutes, we get that horrible "burning dust" smell.


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## soundlight

zwolf59661 said:


> In my high school auditorium, half the lights don't function properly. Just this past November, the whole system over heated a few days before a drama club production and we couldn't use the lights for a few days. And if we leave our only (minimally) working spotlight (out of three) on for more than five minutes, we get that horrible "burning dust" smell.



Get someone's dad (or the school's agricultural studies or construction industries class) to bring in their air compressor with a blow nozzle attachment and blow out the spotlights. Then also do this for your whole lighting inventory. Make sure to do it outside. Then while the lights are outside, plug each of them in and let it burn off the remaining dust and then cool outside before returning it to its hanging position or storage location.


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## zwolf59661

It wasn't the stage lights that gave us problems. The house lights, which run on the same system but different controller, stopped working. They went on, then the control box stopped working and we couldn't turn them off for two weeks. 


PS: if it helps, I'll see if I can get pictures of the equipment for reference purposes.


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## derekleffew

When was the last time the dimmer racks were serviced or filters cleaned? This IS NOT a project for a high school student, but does not necessarily need to be a factory-authorized repair person either (depending on the level of problem).


zwolf59661 said:


> ...PS: if it helps, I'll see if I can get pictures of the equipment for reference purposes.


Yes! We LOVE pictures. But be careful, we may just tell you everything wrong in them.


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## Chris15

derekleffew said:


> But be careful, we may just tell you everything wrong in them.



Shh Derek, didn't you get the memo that said we were going to start offering consulting services on safety matters... At consultant rates no less. Ah well. Kids, take advantage of all us cynical types who WILL point out everything that we can see wrong in your photos. We prefer high resolution images to allow us to be "thorough". And yes, I'm cynical beyond my years


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## zwolf59661

derekleffew said:


> When was the last time the dimmer racks were serviced or filters cleaned? This IS NOT a project for a high school student, but does not necessarily need to be a factory-authorized repair person either (depending on the level of problem).
> Yes! We LOVE pictures. But be careful, we may just tell you everything wrong in them.



I honestly don't know the last time ANY of our lighting equipment was serviced/cleaned, but knowing the way things work in my school district, I can make an educated guess that its last servicing was probably shortly before it was initially installed. I'll see what I can do.


Anyway, the main control board is a Lee Colortran SceneMaster 60, if that means anything. But I'll try to get pictures, too. Just a fair warning, though: most of the problems we have with our system are electrical, as in not visible in pictures of the controls. The only problems you might find would probably be with the pictures themselves.


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## derekleffew

zwolf59661 said:


> I honestly don't know the last time ANY of our lighting equipment was serviced/cleaned, but knowing the way things work in my school district, I can make an educated guess that its last servicing was probably shortly before it was initially installed. I'll see what I can do...Administratally, right? Not going to do this yourself. Right? ...Anyway, the main control board is a Lee Colortran SceneMaster 60, if that means anything. But I'll try to get pictures, too. Just a fair warning, though: most of the problems we have with our system are electrical, as in not visible in pictures of the controls. The only problems you might find would probably be with the pictures themselves.


Oh, I don't know about that, see this thread. We'll send Charcoaldabs right over to help you with any electrical problems (got any cats in closets?).

"Lee Colortran SceneMaster 60" means alot to some of us, it's in the top 1/3-1/2 of desks I've used. Do you have Dimension192 or ENR dimmers? Did I ask you that already? 

But Chris15 is right, we should start charging for our services. "Control Booth On-Line Decrepid Stage Lighting Diagnosis And Repair Service." _CBOLDSDARS_. Just rolls off the tongue. My Day Long Summer Camp Fixture Refurbishment _DLSCFR _ idea is not dead yet either. Still working out the royalty-issues/profit-sharing with AllThingsTheatre. Maybe we'll just become a division of Stella Lights. I told you, Pie, I might be working for you someday!


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## avkid

zwolf59661 said:


> the main control board is a Lee Colortran SceneMaster 60


Ah..the memories.


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## Chris15

derekleffew said:


> But Chris15 is right, we should start charging for our services. "Control Booth On-Line Decrepid Stage Lighting Diagnosis And Repair Service." _CBOLDSDARS_. Just rolls off the tongue. My Day Long Summer Camp Fixture Refurbishment _DLSCFR _ idea is not dead yet either. Still working out the royalty-issues/profit-sharing with AllThingsTheatre. Maybe we'll just become a division of Stella Lights. I told you, Pie, I might be working for you someday!



Hmm... If you and allthings are running a joint class, the most apt question becomes on which continent?

Derek, maybe our fee ought to be *encouraged* donations to CB... As soon as I get around to setting up paypal, I'll donate...


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## derekleffew

Chris15 said:


> ...Derek, maybe our fee ought to be *encouraged* donations to CB...


Hey, great idea! How much FREE advice have we given to charcoaldabs and gafftapegreenia and others? Maybe we should threaten to go on <Load-Out> until more people donate?


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## zwolf59661

derekleffew said:


> Administratally, right? Not going to do this yourself. Right?



Of course. I only know how to use the stuff, not fix it.

either way, though, we got the blown fuse issue taken care of today (i hope), so once its replaced we only have to worry about overheating the lights* when we use them.


*We're actually half-hoping** they become a fire hazard, if they're not already. That way, our school's options are A.) fix/upgrade the current system; B.) install a completely new system; or C.) remove the system completely and not have lights in the auditorium.

**The other half is hoping they don't become a fire hazard, because if they do there's the option that the school will remove the system and not replace it. This is the most logical conclusion I can come to because it is the one that costs the least; my school would rather spend money on football than anything that is not football.


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## Charc

Derek, if/when I set up PayPal I'll donate.


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## Studio

Radiant use Gaff tape


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## icewolf08

Just a quick necropost warning. The last post in this thread was in Jan. 2008.


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## masterelectrician2112

zwolf59661 said:


> **The other half is hoping they don't become a fire hazard, because if they do there's the option that the school will remove the system and not replace it. This is the most logical conclusion I can come to because it is the one that costs the least; my school would rather spend money on football than anything that is not football.


 
Yup! You gotta love that! During one of our fall play performances, there was a home football game going on very very near the theater. It seems like they always have their PA system on full blast! Anyway...We got lucky because our principal is actually an advocate of the arts. Overall, drama is not very widely valued at our school. What really makes me mad though is that the sports venue's work orders are always filled before the theater's!


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## shiben

masterelectrician2112 said:


> Yup! You gotta love that! During one of our fall play performances, there was a home football game going on very very near the theater. It seems like they always have their PA system on full blast! Anyway...We got lucky because our principal is actually an advocate of the arts. Overall, drama is not very widely valued at our school. What really makes me mad though is that the sports venue's work orders are always filled before the theater's!



And this is news? It took a full year to have a staff electrician at my college come and look at a bad box that had 10 circuits in it. They went down in the middle of a play, and the electrical department of the college claimed that they couldnt do anything about it until all the lights were down. 1 year later, someone finally came to fill the work order. The same people were called in, out of their beds, at 3AM to fix the power in the Arena for a basketball event. Turns our the emergency re-lamping of an HID or something at 80' is eaiser than reaching around a Source 4 at 16'.


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## hans44

Radiant said:


> Went to church this morning and found our house lights and front stage lights, 32 x PAR56 500W, 10 x PAR64 1kW, and 6 x 1kW ERSs, basically faders 1-12, had been left on *since Thursday.* All at 100%.
> Besides electricity, which must be a pretty penny, 2 PAR56 lamps and 1 ERS burned out. I have no spare ERS lamps. Thanks.
> We have fluorescent house lights that people can use to work, clean, etc. All accessible with handy on/off switches on the wall. But instead people get into the sound booth and start shoving faders.
> I need to clear it with staff, but I plan to turn off the breakers on the dimmer panels. But I know a lot of people will be upset that they can't get enormous amounts of light on any time they want, and I'll likely not be allowed to cut the breakers.



Just a note to anyone who has this problem (I've seen it before): make sure you explain that running the stage lights requires A LOT of power which costs A LOT of money. Also, when the lamps burn out, it's $15 a pop for ERS lamps, $30 a pop for PAR lamps, and $1.50 for fluorescent tubes.


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## lieperjp

Charc said:


> Derek, if/when I set up PayPal I'll donate.



Charc... it's been almost two years and you still haven't set up a PayPal?


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## MillburyAuditorium

Kind of late on this,

Well, I was running some errands one day, and the Jr. High school was having their drama rehearsal and they were getting pretty close to the show so the teacher wanted the spotlights on, and at the time we had a very very poor preset system, it was either House Full House Off, Stage Full Stage Off, so you can see why we never used the system, so anyways the director turns the sage lights on, so every stage light was at 100% for only maybe 45 minutes, and when I walked in I swore something was on fire or something, this was also when our HVAC system wasnt functioning like it should, it was so very very hot in there, and the smell was odd, not of plastic or rubber, but for some reson I blurted out "Ooh, I can smell the burning O-Zone now", so anyways, blew a few lightbulbs, and disconnected the preset box


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