# Stage Haze



## rapscaLLion (Apr 1, 2005)

I assume stage fog and haze that are produced by dedicated machines are not against the pyro rules?

Here's the situation: We want to use haze in one of our one act plays, it's 15-20 minutes long (not sure yet lol).
It's not a big enough production to warrent the expense and complications of getting a real haze machine. So afaik there are two alternatives:

-Use our existing fog machine (it's one of those stupid consumer party foggers) to somehow create haze.... we are mainly looking to have one main beam of light visible, so fogging the entire stage up is not necessary I suppose, but it would be nice. A rep from a company near where I live called airmagic fx suggested using a fan and short bursts from our fog machine to create a haze substitute. I think the fog will rise quickly and be too distracting, and dissipate to fast, nevermind that that fog machine hisses VERY audibly each time it gives off a burst. (You can hear the damn thing very well from the booth).

-Use "Diffusion", which is apparently haze in an aerosol can. It is claimed to be basically the same thing as haze machine haze, safe, same effect, etc. My question would be does anyone have experiance with this stuff? IE-Does it work, and will it fill a stage that is slightly larger than most school stages, or at least part of it? There are two dealers that I know of in my area that carry it. One sells them for $28 CAD ($23 USD) per can and has them in stock, one sells them for $10.30 CAD ($8.48 USD). The problem is, the cheaper place has none in stock, and will order only if I place a large enough order (ie-a case). I am not willing to commit to a purchase of an entire case without first testing it. So, I will probably by a can from the expensive place and try it out, and order it from the cheap place if I like it. But, I won't bother if anyone here can tell me if it doesn't work 

Thanks!


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## koncept (Apr 1, 2005)

what about using a chiller w/ your fog machine so it stays low longer

im not the best im just throwing an idea out there


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## LDSFX (Apr 1, 2005)

No matter whar fluid is used in your machine, regardless of temperature, it will dissipate at the same rate. I have tried (and used with success) haze fluid inside of a cheap fog machine. I have even swapped fluids back and forth and gotten results. So if you can get your hands on some haze fluid, give it a shot in your fog machine.


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## Peter (Apr 1, 2005)

I have built a custom chiller (not too hard to do.... ask or look arround the internet for ideas) and that combined with wtih dumping lots of smoke into an off stage corner stage seems to work best. The air circulation currents work in our favor in this one area (althugh they work against us everywhere else). We usualy have to fill the flyspace with smoke first to get it to lower down to be visible on stage, but I think the most important thing would be to test if you have any air currents on your stage. Another possibility would be shooting the fog down a tube (with fans arround the fog machine blowing into the tube) to allow the fogmachine to be placed farther away, and possibly dissipate the fog before being released.

Thats just my $.02


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## Les (Apr 2, 2005)

If you're using a conventional fogger, watch out for those smoke detectors. They are more sensative in some buildings than others. Especially the ones with optical sensors in the HVAC ducts. If you are using Haze, you should have no problem with this, because it is less dense than fog. A chiller would not fill the air with fog if operating properly. Plus, you would most likely have to bring ice along unless you are using some type of expensive cooling unit. Chillers are designed to create a creepy fog that lies near the ground. Is this UIL One-Act? Make sure you are even allowed to use a fog machine. Some states are more strict than others. The Haze-In-A-Can would most likely be the easiest to deal with given your situation because it requires minimal storage, no power, and is always ready to go. It sucks when your fogger goes into 'stand-by' when you need it most. By the way, there should be other suppliers for this type of product. One that I know of is prosound and stage lighting (www.pssl.com). I believe it sells for around $20.00 per can.


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## rapscaLLion (Apr 3, 2005)

I live in Canada, so it is preferable to get the cans from a Toronto area dealer.
I'll try some things with or fog machine though, see if I can make it work.
Thanks for the tips!

PS-We own a cheap fog machine and have used it before, fire alarm has never been an issue afaik.


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## ship (Apr 4, 2005)

I have used propellent based haze fluid before. Depending upon the product, - The CITC Fantasy FX or "Poof" for instance should have a 30 sec. burst out of it that will linger about 30 min.

This figure is based upon spaces much smaller and less drafty than a stage. In spraying you would need to walk around with the spray to disperse it otherwise for most of that 30 min it lasts it's going to be dense in one area and not much in others. While it does disperse some, it does not much as I remember it.

There are some oil based haze fluids on the market which are dual purpose between haze and fog machines. Such fluids are designed around specific fog machines however. Use of another type of machine with the fluid can very possibly destroy the machine. This use of other brands at very least should be verified with the fog fluid's manufacturer that it will work with your machine.


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## rapscaLLion (Apr 4, 2005)

Hmm... what I was looking at is called "Diffusion", and it *claims* to spray for five minutes... I only need it to hang for about 20 minutes, I just hope the ventillation in our backstage area won't screw it up 

I really want to stay away from oil based fog/haze, for obvious reasons. I'll experiment with the machine, and if it doesn't work I'll invest in one of the $30 cans and see if they work... if so I'll order a case from the cheaper place


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## jonhirsh (Apr 5, 2005)

you have two choices you can take a regular humidifer and use haz fluid or use 1 part glycerin to 9 parts water. this will creat a haze effect. 

or you can suck it up and call christie lites or Westbury national show systems and rent a hazer for like $200 a week. You dont need an MDG hazer you just need like a Nutron xs they are cheep and they work so just rent it. 

Dont use the canned haze its un predictable.

i use air magic and all of these companys they are all great but i find airmagic is great for consumables but expensive for rentals so try and go with a rental house like christie they have large amounts of stock on hand

if you need an contact at any of these shops 

email me [email protected]

thanks 
Jon Hirsh


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## jonhirsh (Apr 5, 2005)

sory and one other thing do not put haze fluid in your smoke machine it will damage your machine. follow your the manufacturers instructions do not do it. the good thing about proper haze units is they are instant no heat times and they run continuious and have huge hang times.


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## Peter (Apr 5, 2005)

haze fluid in a normal everyday household humidifier? I have never heard of that before! Hey, you learn something new everyday. Does that ruin it's usefulness as a normal humidifier? or does giving it a good rinse clean it all out?


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## jonhirsh (Apr 5, 2005)

um for the $40 dollars for a new one i wouldnt risk it but hey if you must


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## Peter (Apr 6, 2005)

then what did you mean by: "you have two choices you can take a regular *humidifer and use haz fluid or use 1 part glycerin to 9 parts water. " 

Is that just another term for a haze maker? I am not sure I am following what you are trying to say :-(*


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## jonhirsh (Apr 6, 2005)

I am saying do not use the humidifier as a regular humidifier (in your bedroom) affter you have put haze fluid. i am saing this for no reasson other then i really dont like to breath in mineral oils if i dont have to. and i dont think but am not certian that it would be hard to clean it out


JH


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## Peter (Apr 6, 2005)

ah ok, but a regualar humidifier does work as a hazer on stage. ok, I think i get it, sorry about the confusion! (I can be rather slow sometimes  )


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## rapscaLLion (Apr 7, 2005)

lol I'm not going to be screwing around with glycerin 

I talked to a guy at airmagic, he said since the show is so short, we could probably get a good enough effect just using our fogger... I think he's right. If I pipe it far enough, it'll come out at the end very subtly, and I really only need it under one direct light, so I'll probably get away with only using the fog machine. Plus, I was overruled on the hazer due to safety concerns... why haze is any worse than fog is beyond me, I guess they are concerned it will flow into the auditorium. 

I didn't try Westbury, but I did try Christie, they were very expensive, and only had oil based foggers 

Thanks for your help, and I'll be sure to detail how it turned out, along with photos


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## jonhirsh (Apr 7, 2005)

Hey haze is not worse then fog there are no safty concerns with haze there are more concerns with fog like smoke alarms and heat sensors

fog will go into the crowd as well. All haze is oil based even the stuff in the can (if i am not mistaken) 

the fog will not have a long hang time you will need to keep fogging if this is ok with you then you will have the desierd effect


JH


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## rapscaLLion (Apr 8, 2005)

Well I know there are some non-oil based fluids... or at least they have low oil content. I know there is less safety concerns with haze but some of these people are morons. *sigh*
It's still to much of a pain to get a hazer though, we'll use the fogger, and just keep fogging every so often.


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## tss_rocks (Apr 8, 2005)

Westbury should have them at a fairly competitive price ($40 /day) or so. If not, try Concord Production Services in Cambridge. (www.concordpro.com) Both should have non oild-based hazers. They've got some nice stuff, I recently rented a LeMaitre Stage Fogger Pro from them and I think it came out to $36 with tax, I don't think a hazer would cost too much more.


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## koncept (Apr 9, 2005)

i just talked to our td about this today, the house in the show is suppoed to burn down n have haze/smoke but they want to use fog, but last time they used for "if would shoot out then need to heat up again n it goes out into the house n stays there" so i said if its a filled stage thing, use a hazer, he said whats that....ugh why are ppl like that allowed to be td's (esp when they break thier leg by walking "tripping" on unbraced ramp legs

ne advice on what to do for the haze effect...so that i can give them somehting
if you would still recomend a hazer, ne ideas as to where in cleveland/olmsted falls one can be rented


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## jonhirsh (Apr 9, 2005)

"i just talked to our td about this today, the house in the show is suppoed to burn down n have haze/smoke but they want to use fog, but last time they used for "if would shoot out then need to heat up again n it goes out into the house n stays there" so i said if its a filled stage thing, use a hazer"

Um depending on the effect the opinions vary smoke (fog) is dense and thick it will hang in the air for a period of time and then disipate. it can be use to fill a whole stage multiple units may be needed depending on the desierd effect. depending on the air circulation the time it takes to fill the stage will vary.

Haze is used for a light breakup in the light to make the beam visiable. it is non aparent unless light is going thru it unlike fog. it takes longer to disapate. the hang time is much longer due to lighter particles. it is not an instant effect it takes time to move the haze around the stage even with fans in use. it will not give you a cloud effect for fires and other types of effects. haze is used primarly before the show starts not as an effect during the show but there are always exceptions to the rule



" he said whats that....ugh why are ppl like that allowed to be td's (esp when they break thier leg by walking "tripping" on unbraced ramp legs"

These are the same types of people that say no fog and haze are to dangerous lets use dry ice. but studies have shown there are no short term health effects with fog and haze and very few long term ones with severly heavey useage. on the other hand dry ice is co2 a deadly gas (much safer lol ) 

"ne advice on what to do for the haze effect...so that i can give them somehting "
if you want haze tell them you will rent a foger and get a hazer they wont know the differnce if they are inexpericaned but hey i think for the effect you described two or three fogers depending on the size of your space would do the trick 

the reason to have more then one is that a fogger can only give off so much before it needs to reheat so if you have two you can cover half the deck with each one 


hope this helps 

Jon Hirsh


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## koncept (Apr 9, 2005)

it helps a great deal thank you


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## jonhirsh (Apr 9, 2005)

No problem


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## Tex (Oct 19, 2010)

jonhirsh said:


> co2 a deadly gas


 I know a couple of trees who would disagree...


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## DuckJordan (Oct 19, 2010)

Tex said:


> I know a couple of trees who would disagree...


 

This thread is old, and as such i will State "Necropost" although new information needs to be added to this and should be so ASAP, Most fog and haze fluid are required to be water based, OIL BASED fluids are harmful to everyone and pretty sure OSHA has pretty much demanded a cease use on these things. 

As far as using haze being a concern to an audience unless your house is either about the size of an average dorm for a single fog or haze machine to cause serious health concerns your going to need way more than whats required to make an effect. I know last year here they did for peter pan a giant wall of fog flow into the audience after intermission, (filled an area 30x20x20 feet area full of fog in 10 minutes to create a rolling wall of fog) didn't cause any health issue except the occasional cough.


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## len (Oct 19, 2010)

A can of diffusion is good enough for your living room. But not for a stage. Remember, it's not just the stage, but the wings, the house, backstage, etc. Air moves and you really don't have much control on how and where, unless you're in a bubble. And it will move differently from day to day depending on temperature, humidity, etc. 

Your cheapo party fogger may do the trick, or maybe not. But a good quality hazer will likely not be that much to rent, and when you factor in the cost of the garbage fluid you use with those cheap foggers, and how much you'll use, and the lack of dependability factor, a hazer rental is not that much more money. A good hazer will use about 2 teaspoons of fluid or less.


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## derekleffew (Oct 19, 2010)

DuckJordan said:


> ... Most fog and haze fluid are required to be water based, OIL BASED fluids are harmful to everyone and pretty sure OSHA has pretty much demanded a cease use on these things. ...


Incorrect on so many levels. For starters, see the MSDS for the DF-50 Diffusion Fogger, probably the most-used hazer.


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## Pie4Weebl (Oct 19, 2010)

derekleffew said:


> Incorrect on so many levels. For starters, see the MSDS for the DF-50 Diffusion Fogger, probably the most-used hazer.


WHY DIDN'T YOU POST THIS EARLIER!? I saw ducks post, immediately notified management of their oversight and we threw out hundreds of hazers this afternoon!


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## soundlight (Oct 19, 2010)

DuckJordan said:


> although new information needs to be added to this and should be so ASAP, Most fog and haze fluid are required to be water based, OIL BASED fluids are harmful to everyone and pretty sure OSHA has pretty much demanded a cease use on these things.



Just so I'm sure I've got all of my bases covered here:

Reel EFX
(This uses the fluid in the MSDS that Derek posted)

CITC FX - "Cool Stuff is Show Tuff!®" - Special Effects Equipment
http://www.citcfx.com/msds/MSDS-High-Performance-Fluid.pdf

American DJ Homepage
http://www.americandj.com/pdffiles/haze_juice_msds.pdf

Elation Professional - Professional Lighting Products
Elation Professional - Professional Lighting Products
Elation Professional - Professional Lighting Products

HAZE 400 FT
HAZE 500 FT Pro

That's not all of them, but I think I've got a good number covered. If you didn't catch that - oil-based hazers are still in use and are probably still at the top as far as haze goes. I will be spec'ing DF-50s until something else becomes the de facto standard and is stocked by companies that I work for on a daily basis.


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## DuckJordan (Oct 20, 2010)

soundlight said:


> Just so I'm sure I've got all of my bases covered here:
> 
> Reel EFX
> (This uses the fluid in the MSDS that Derek posted)
> ...


 

I guess I am wrong, just relaying something my professor said here at the university, I may have been incorrect on the OSHA standpoint of the hazers but Oil is defiantly not safe on lungs since it will just sit in your lungs.


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## soundlight (Oct 20, 2010)

DuckJordan said:


> I guess I am wrong, just relaying something my professor said here at the university, I may have been incorrect on the OSHA standpoint of the hazers but Oil is defiantly not safe on lungs since it will just sit in your lungs.


 
If it wasn't safe, the AEA wouldn't allow it. They're pretty much the most uptight group about effects of fog and haze on health out there.

And I quote: "oral exposure to mineral oil is essentially innocuous" (bottom of page II-9 in the report linked below).

You can find that quote and much more useful information on the hard facts of this issue in the AEA document found here: http://www.actorsequity.org/docs/safesan/finalreport.pdf

You will also notice in reading that report that people consume mineral oil in a number of other ways, as it is fairly common.


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## DuckJordan (Oct 20, 2010)

soundlight said:


> If it wasn't safe, the AEA wouldn't allow it. They're pretty much the most uptight group about effects of fog and haze on health out there.
> 
> And I quote: "oral exposure to mineral oil is essentially innocuous" (bottom of page II-9 in the report linked below).
> 
> ...


 
Ingestion and inhalation are two separate things. While one has no problems consuming smoked barbecue, the same person would have qualms with smoking a cigarette, I am by no means a medical expert but Lungs cannot process fluids the same way your digestion system can, which means that certain things stay in your lungs forever (or until medically removed). Ever heard of pneumonia, its a build up of liquid in your lungs, whether that be water, mucous or some other liquid its still fluid in your lungs.


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## ToddH (Oct 20, 2010)

It is not recommended using haze fluid in a fogger. Unless it is a really cheap fogger you don't care about. You will probably damage the heater core.


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## soundlight (Oct 20, 2010)

DuckJordan said:


> Ingestion and inhalation are two separate things. While one has no problems consuming smoked barbecue, the same person would have qualms with smoking a cigarette, I am by no means a medical expert but Lungs cannot process fluids the same way your digestion system can, which means that certain things stay in your lungs forever (or until medically removed). Ever heard of pneumonia, its a build up of liquid in your lungs, whether that be waeter, mucous or some other liquid its still fluid in your lungs.


 
Did you read all of that document? Understanding particulate concentrations and what they mean as far as health risks is something to understand - again, discussed in the document. Concentrations that are useable are perfectly safe. If you put enough haze in the air to really be an issue, visibility would suck - and thus the stage show wouldn't be all that visible. Please, please do your research - that document has everything you need to know. There wouldn't be DF-50s used all over the world on a daily basis if there were that severe of a health risk as you suggest. Every single arena show that I have worked and seen a spec for has a DF-50 on it, and rental houses have them as standard items. In fact, the place where I work has probably 10 to 15 of them, and we're just a regional company. They go out all of the time.

In short, if there was as much of a health risk as you suggest, the people that are exposed to them every day on the jobsite would be experiencing significant health issues beccasue of them. They don't, and that's that, 'cause oil-based hazers have been proven to be perfectly safe.


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## seanandkate (Oct 20, 2010)

soundlight said:


> If it wasn't safe, the AEA wouldn't allow it. They're pretty much the most uptight group about effects of fog and haze on health out there.
> 
> And I quote: "oral exposure to mineral oil is essentially innocuous" (bottom of page II-9 in the report linked below).
> 
> ...




DuckJordan said:


> Ingestion and inhalation are two separate things. While one has no problems consuming smoked barbecue, the same person would have qualms with smoking a cigarette, I am by no means a medical expert but Lungs cannot process fluids the same way your digestion system can, which means that certain things stay in your lungs forever (or until medically removed). Ever heard of pneumonia, its a build up of liquid in your lungs, whether that be water, mucous or some other liquid its still fluid in your lungs.


 
You're _both_ right according to the conclusions (Section VI-5):


> _E. Conclusions
> The overall results of this study of the effects of theatrical smoke, haze and pyrotechnics indicate that there are health effects associated with Actors exposed to elevated or peak levels of glycol smoke and mineral oil. However, as long as exposures are kept below the guidelines described below, Actors in general should not suffer adverse impacts to their health or their vocal abilities. Mineral oil, for the most part, does not appear to have as significant an effect on Actors, provided that the exposures are minimized and uniform, rather than in concentrated bursts. Pyrotechnics as currently used on Broadway did not have a significant effect on Actors’ health._



Ahh...like so many other things, it's not the tool--it's how you use it.

PS -- Thanks for the link to the article, soundlight. Good read.


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## soundlight (Oct 20, 2010)

seanandkate said:


> PS -- Thanks for the link to the article, soundlight. Good read.



Glad to provide - in my opinion, it's the best document available on the subject - I haven't been able to find another out there.

Also, the day that I hear about "concentrated bursts" coming from a DF-50 - that'll be the day. The very nature of the beast (as with all other oil-based hazers that I've used) is a low concentration, uniform distribution of haze. (Unless the ventilation system is fighting you, in which case it can be a very ununiform distribution of haze...)


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