# Frowning Soft Goods: Scrim, Cyc, Bounce



## Jason M Wagner (Nov 16, 2019)

We have a black, sharks-tooth scrim, a white, seamless muslin cyc, and a white, plastic Twin White "bounce". All three of them are piped have a form of "frowning" at the bottom. So, when bringing them to the deck, there is a generous gap between the piece and the ground. We then end up over-travelling a bit to get rid of the gap.

Are there any solutions to this problem? Only the cyc has a front flap, but it has curled under over time and doesn't help. We will be steaming that soon to see what coverage it affords us.

When spec'ing new soft goods, such as these, what are the best features to have to ensure a good looking piece for a longer period of time?

Thanks!

Wags


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## What Rigger? (Nov 16, 2019)

Got any photos of how these items are attached to their battens? Might help us get a better idea regarding to what degree this is happening.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Nov 16, 2019)

If there is a pipe in bottom pocket it may be too heavy. 3/4 " rigid or intermediate conduit works and less likely for ends to sag.

If it's the top batten, how far is it cantilevered from last lift line?


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## Jason M Wagner (Nov 17, 2019)

We were in a performance last night and now are in a orchestra shell show. I'll get pictures as soon as I can. 

I can say the tops are all tie-lined to the batten. All ties are even. Pipes seem even across. 
Bottom pipe is 3/4" conduit with low-profile unions.


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## SteveB (Nov 17, 2019)

When you fly the drape, the weight of the fabric and bottom pipe can sag the top pipe at the pipe ends. Depends om the number of lines for the main pipe and distance to the end of pipe. We had to resort to bridles on pipes that had legs, which lowers the maximum pipe travel.


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## Jason M Wagner (Nov 19, 2019)

Hard to get good pictures, but I think you can see what I'm talking about.


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## Jason M Wagner (Nov 19, 2019)

SteveB said:


> When you fly the drape, the weight of the fabric and bottom pipe can sag the top pipe at the pipe ends. Depends om the number of lines for the main pipe and distance to the end of pipe. We had to resort to bridles on pipes that had legs, which lowers the maximum pipe travel.



Is there a way to plan for this when ordering new soft goods?


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## SteveB (Nov 19, 2019)

Jason M Wagner said:


> Is there a way to plan for this when ordering new soft goods?



First thing to check is height from deck of the pipe the cyc hangs on. Looks like maybe it’s not completely level. The blackout drop looks pretty good. Bitch on “level” is it’s hard to get perfect especially if the aircraft cable attachment points are chain, as you’ve got a built in 1“ max tolerance from the chain links. If there’s a turnbuckle above chain (rarely as it reduces flying height and has issues of the top of the turnbuckle getting into the loft blocks) easy to trim.

Best option on cyc is to run it in lower and use the bottom pipe to roll up material in back, then using the roll to keep it looking clean. Only issue is that’s great when the cyc stays in. If it flies a lot, then SOL.


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## DrewE (Nov 19, 2019)

A possibly silly question: is the stage floor surface itself even and level?


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## Jason M Wagner (Nov 20, 2019)

DrewE said:


> A possibly silly question: is the stage floor surface itself even and level?



No, not silly. It's entirely possible. Something I need to check out.


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## derekleffew (Nov 20, 2019)

Hmmm, I've always had the opposite problem, *smiling* bottom pipe, particularly with scrims sagging in the middle and hourglassing at the sides.

Good start is to make sure the top pipe is level. Then, to correct forming, perhaps it's possible to lengthen the middle ties?

Looking more carefully at the pictures...your problem doesn't appear that bad. Nothing a scenic groundrow couldn't fix, and then you'd have a place to light from the bottom also. You know, for the ColorForceII striplights you don't have.


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## kicknargel (Nov 20, 2019)

A few thoughts:

Is it possible the bottom pipes are bent?
If not, as suggested, you could correct for the problem by adjusting either the system pipe (esp. if the goods are always on the same pipes) or the ties.
You could add a larger skirt on the bottom of the goods.
Was that enough thoughts to warrant my use of bullets?


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## macsound (Nov 20, 2019)

I've totally had bottom pipes that bent and then you really can't fix it. Great question because I wonder if chain was used instead of pipe, would the stretch of the cyc have been different?


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## StradivariusBone (Nov 20, 2019)

macsound said:


> I've totally had bottom pipes that bent and then you really can't fix it. Great question because I wonder if chain was used instead of pipe, would the stretch of the cyc have been different?



That's an interesting thought. I would think the chain would cause a bit of bunching in the cyc at the bottom. I know we have to stretch ours out along the bottom pipe from time to time. THe rigidity of the pipe keeps it taut to the outsides.


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## MarshallPope (Nov 21, 2019)

To answer you question about preventing the problem with new soft goods, I would suggest a cable to support the offstage ends of the bottom pipe, especially with scrims, as that's where I see the issue most often. While you're at it, add a handful of tarp clamps to help prevent hourglassing. 
With a cyc or other solid drop, just a couple extra inches of skirt past the bottom pipe is usually enough to suffice.


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## Jason M Wagner (Nov 22, 2019)

kicknargel said:


> the bottom pipes are bent?


That is a possibility as well. The piping is just regular Home Depot 3/4" conduit. I've looked into maybe getting something a bit more rigid. 


MarshallPope said:


> a cable to support the offstage ends of the bottom pipe


Is this why I see some drops with bungee built-in to the hour-glass sides?


MarshallPope said:


> a couple extra inches of skirt


Yes. This is something I missed when we ordered our new scrim. Humidity ruined the old one and this being the first time ordering a soft good, I didn't get all the details. The cyc has a skirt on it, but years of landing on it has caused it to bunch up and fold under. I need to straighten it out to work better. Best way to do that to muslin?


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## RonHebbard (Nov 22, 2019)

Jason M Wagner said:


> The piping is regular Home Depot 3/4" conduit. I've looked into maybe getting something a bit more rigid.


 *@Jason M Wagner* Steel or aluminum; rigid with threaded couplings or EMT*??* 
Toodleoo! 
Ron Hebbard


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## BillConnerFASTC (Nov 22, 2019)

RonHebbard said:


> *@Jason M Wagner* Steel or aluminum; rigid with threaded couplings or EMT*??*
> Toodleoo!
> Ron Hebbard


or IMC


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## What Rigger? (Nov 22, 2019)

I had the same thought regarding straightness of the pipes in the pocket.


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## Jason M Wagner (Nov 26, 2019)

Here's more pictures. You can see we are trying to make the pipe smile with clamps. Doesn't work.


RonHebbard said:


> Steel or aluminum; rigid with threaded couplings or EMT*??*




BillConnerFASTC said:


> or IMC



I wish I could say. Can you tell from the pictures??


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## SteveB (Nov 26, 2019)

Since all your overhead pipes are cabled direct to pipe hangers, there’s no (easy) adjustment to be made if the pipe isn’t level. Thus and for the cyc I would roll the bottom pipe to get fabric clean across the bottom.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Nov 26, 2019)

SteveB said:


> Since all your overhead pipes are cabled direct to pipe hangers, there’s no (easy) adjustment to be made if the pipe isn’t level. Thus and for the cyc I would roll the bottom pipe to get fabric clean across the bottom.


I think if you look closely those are and adjustable trim plate. There are a series of holes in the plate between thimble and pipe clamp and you can trim by changing which hole in trim plate with top bolt in pipe clamp. 

My version of the history is Richard Mecke at Texas Scenic developed this as a result of Randy Davidson (Dr Doom) not accepting grade 30 trim chain for overhead lifting in inspections. This was before alloy chains that could be used for overhead lifting.


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## SteveB (Nov 26, 2019)

Yes, I see that once I zoom in. Glad to have chain.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Nov 27, 2019)

But what grade of chain is the question.


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## macsound (Nov 27, 2019)

I really appreciate how clean your space it.


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## Jason M Wagner (Dec 1, 2019)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> adjustable trim plate



Yes, @BillConnerFASTC, we have the adjustable trim plates. I may look to those to see if I can "fix" my issues.


macsound said:


> I really appreciate how clean your space it.



Thanks, @macsound. We get that all the time. Proud of it!


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