# Fresnels for front lighting?



## JNJ (Jul 18, 2009)

I have been tasked with procurring the lighting equipment for my church as we move into a new permanent facility. We are a contemporary church (full band), and will have a few motion lights and color changers. However, my primary question concerns the front lighting.

The quote that we got from the lighting supplier has a mixture of fresnels and Source-4's as the front lighting. I have never used fresnels as a front lighting (I always used them for downs). I believe the concept that the company is proposing is to use the fresnels to create a flat wash across the stage and use the S4's for special lighting.

I am a relative newbie, but I have always used ellipsoidals for front lighting. I am basically familiar with the McCandless lighting method and 3 point lighting. My vision (before I got their quote) was to use two S4's per lighting position for front lighting at roughly 45 degrees from center, and to add back lighting for depth, and color changers for down (effect lighting).

Does anyone have any comments about using fresnels for front light? What are the advantages?

We will also have a haze machine, and I am not sure whether that affects the ellipsoidal vs. fresnel question.

Thanks in advance for any advice!

James


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## mstaylor (Jul 18, 2009)

I came the same school of sschool that you did, two lekos and a rear cool. If you are going to use wash instruments I would use PARS instead of fresnels. Of course, a lot depends on the size of your church, length of throw etc.


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## 00AVD (Jul 18, 2009)

I've use Fresnels plenty of times for front lighting. Much more controllable than PARs in my opinion.


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## NickJones (Jul 18, 2009)

All depends on distance, angle etc.
Can you be more specific? What type of fresnel?
Nick


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## David Ashton (Jul 18, 2009)

It is easy to get an even wash with Fresnels. with soft edges and the ability to set a wide choice of beam angles, on tour I use them a lot as they are more adaptable than profiles.It is vital though to have barndoors on them.They are, of course cheaper, if that is a factor.


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## JNJ (Jul 18, 2009)

NickJones said:


> All depends on distance, angle etc.
> Can you be more specific? What type of fresnel?
> Nick


 

The lighting position is a bar above the house, with a pretty short throw of about 25 feet, at an angle of roughly 45 degrees above horizontal. The fresnel that they have proposed is a Selecon Acclaim.

For those of you that have used fresnels for front light, did you use multiple instruments lighting one position (McCandless), or did you light straight from the front?


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## kiwitechgirl (Jul 18, 2009)

We use fresnels for general frontlighting almost all the time. The method depends on the designer, but usually it's two units for each area rather than coming straight in - this does tend to work better in our space. A haze machine won't make any difference to the ellipsoidal/fresnel debate - you'll see the beams in the air regardless. I definitely belong to the "fresnels as frontlight" school! I just find you can get the edges of the beams to blend much better. The Selecon Acclaim is a very nice little fresnel - we have about 30 of them and they're great units.


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## midgetgreen11 (Jul 18, 2009)

All of my upstage acting areas are fresnels based on what we have in our inventory. I get a much more even wash with them than I do with PAR cans, however I tend to notice a LOT more spill on surrounding drapery from Fresnels than PARs... so if that is a factor in your case buy yourself a few barn doors or tophats would be the cheaper option.


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## MNBallet (Jul 18, 2009)

Most churches are going with video as well and that could be BIG factor in your lighting. It's fine using Fresnels as front light (you can use them as any angle you wish!) If you are going to have lots of video a smooth wash from a bunch of Fresnels might look better than a bunch of Pars to the camera. The big difference is the shape of a oval from the pars compared to a smooth round from the fresnels. Cost could be a factor too. How does the Acclaim compare to an ETC Source four par in cost? If the lights are going to be used as general front wash and never change, why put in a light that can? Would a good ETC Par with a wide lens would be better if the front light is never going to "zoom" on a frensel? I think your main factor to consider is cost to flexability ratio. Generally the more flexible the light, the more expensive, hence pars are cheaper than ellipsoidals.

Plan on doing big Christmas and Easter productions? Which light would better serve you for those?

In short, there's nothing wrong with putting Fresnels as front light. Other things to think about would be how many types of lamps would you keep in stock? Would the ellipsoidals be Source 4's with HPL, and the Fresnels be with something else like a GLA?


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## CenterSpot (Jul 18, 2009)

As concerns "effect" in front lighting, fresnels are a great "old" standard and with barn-doors to "clip" the side stage, proscenium and stage thrust areas, provide a pretty smoothly balanced wash.

PARS, on the other hand, require a more precise focus to achieve the same wash. Again, barn doors to clip the edges.

We used Lekos for "specials" and spot lighting, with and without shutters and gobos.



By the time motorized lamps were popularly being used, I was too far into audio, video and videowalls to pay any attention. (I Know, darned primadonna )

As concerns cost, I cannot speak having been out of the market for so long.


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## Jeroen (Jul 19, 2009)

kiwitechgirl said:


> We use fresnels for general frontlighting almost all the time. The method depends on the designer, but usually it's two units for each area rather than coming straight in - this does tend to work better in our space. A haze machine won't make any difference to the ellipsoidal/fresnel debate - you'll see the beams in the air regardless. I definitely belong to the "fresnels as frontlight" school! I just find you can get the edges of the beams to blend much better. The Selecon Acclaim is a very nice little fresnel - we have about 30 of them and they're great units.



I second that, all our general frontlighting for theatre is mostly made by fresnels, two units for each area, rarely coming straight in. For exactly the same reasons as stated in this thread: edges of the beams blend better, versatility for theatre lighting, price. For longer throw distances, and specific things ellipsoidals come into play.

I would not advice pars for general lighting for theatre purpose, or it should be parnels or multipars with wide lens.
Narrow pars are good for concert lighting, effects, color washes, backlighting, creating a curtain of light... they are versatile, but for general area lighting in theatre they would not be my first choice, except if you go with ETC HPL multipars.


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## Les (Jul 19, 2009)

Jeroen said:


> I would not advice pars for general lighting for theatre purpose, or it should be parnels or multipars with wide lens.
> Narrow pars are good for concert lighting, effects, color washes, backlighting, creating a curtain of light... they are versatile, but for general area lighting in theatre they would not be my first choice, except if you go with ETC HPL multipars.



I get this and all, but you have to keep in mind that every theatre is different. Pars might work great in some venues and poorly in others. Your statement is too broad and misinformed to really have any actual meaning. Plus, not every theatre is an "ETC House".


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## Esoteric (Jul 19, 2009)

They are fine for front specials. But I would never use one for a front light or on the house side of the procenium.

Mike


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## mstaylor (Jul 20, 2009)

While I agree that you can use fresnels in certain siuations the OP was about a church. In a church setting, I think more open areas and thought PARS would be better in that application.


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## Jeroen (Jul 20, 2009)

Esoteric said:


> They are fine for front specials. But I would never use one for a front light or on the house side of the procenium.
> 
> Mike



And that's what I'm trying to say ...
never get me wrong, I really do like pars, we have a bunch of them and they are probably the best buy we ever did for our rig (cheap and usefull). But like said by Esoteric, I rarely use them for general front light, but do use them for front light specials.

Still, the question was: fresnels for front lighting?
YES


Les, indeed every theatre is different, but it's just an advice. We rarely use pars for general front lighting for theatre productions... on the other side I use pars for color front / diagonal washes for dance, concert and 'mixed art' applications (and for those it's common practice to use par's). (not trying to start a 'par war'). It was only an advice. When it looks good and works for your theatre (safely), then it sounds like a good solution. All depends on application, design and venue, right?.

We recently took par16 and par36 pinspots to create a moody atmosphere for a certain project, with some haze and in backlighting or diagonal its amazing how the small beams perform short distance.

About the 'ETC house' thing: very true. At my country ETC is not so present at all. Many venues use ADB fixtures, dimmers and consoles over here. http://www.adblighting.com/
Some don't even know ETC...
more ADB, MA, Zero88, Strand, CompuLite


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## dramatech (Jul 20, 2009)

I have 10 Selecon Acclaims, and they are light weight zoom from 6* to 60*, very small in size, have great barndoors as an accesory, and put out more light than most 6" fresnels with larger lamps. I think they would be perfect for the throw distance that was stated by the OP. They also have a center of gravity adjustment and a very easy lamp change.
They are manufactured in New Zealand, and I would think would be much easier and less expensive than ETC PARS and PARNels to obtain in Australia.


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## JNJ (Jul 20, 2009)

Thank you all for your comments. I feel much better about the fresnels now. It sounds like they will work well for our space.


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## Les (Jul 20, 2009)

Jeroen said:


> Les, indeed every theatre is different... ...All depends on application, design and venue, right?.



Absolutely right. The theatre that I am thinking of which is an exception to the "no pars for FOH or house side of proscenium" rule is the Campus Theatre which is about 8 miles from my house. It is a renovated single screen movie house (1949) and has a semi thrust stage. The front of house area lights consist of 24 20* Altman Shakespeares, along with 8 other Shakespeares (per side) in alcove positions. They are usually used as supplementary area lights, color washes, gobo effects, etc. But even further towards the stage is about 24 Altman par 64's, 12 per side which are perpendicular to the stage. When I design shows there I usually gel them in RGBA and use them for front/side color washes and toning. They do great for that (usually I will have 6 of each color per side) and are still considered front of house, yet they don't cause any spill into the house. Maybe I will see if I can find a picture of the place because it is definitely unique and hard to describe!

Here we go:



As you can see, there are 4 par cans visible on the left and right hand sides, but there are 2 more groups of 4 which are out of the frame. These are actually catwalks which span the entire length of the house, which provide access from the booth to back stage (These are not used during performances though). Beyond the plaster line, the catwalks continue, where more par cans are hung as high sides. The rigging they are suspended from actually doubles as the "hand" railing for the catwalks. 

Even further out of frame are the alcoves, set up in a ladder format (4 levels of 2). 
The main front lighting position is right above the photographer's head (he is standing in the booth-which was once the movie house's balcony.

Then there was my old high school, where the only par cans we had front of house were for worklights. I used some a few times to flood the stage with color, but they were very hard to keep from spilling all over the proscenium even with barn doors. Yup, all depends on the venue. Magic in some, caca in others.


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