# DMX Universes and addressing



## Corbettlight (Sep 4, 2009)

Alright, so I just got an Element - it came in a week!
All of my dimmers are MPX, and I have an NSI I/F 501 to convert between DMX and MPX. It works great. However, I also have some DMX devices. If I connect my conventionals to DMX 1 and my DMX devices to DMX 2, do I have to address the ones in the second universe differently? Or can I just use it like they are all in the same universe?


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## shiben (Sep 4, 2009)

Ok, so I have limited experience patching into a 2nd universe, but what you need to do is to add 512 to whatever the address is. That gives you the absolute address. Thus, things plugged into Universe 2 will begin at 513. However, I believe that the patching section for devices *might* have a little box for universe in it. I know the Congo does, and I can not remember off the top of my head if the Ion does as well, but I feel like there is a way to do it. Just adding 512 to the address is easier in my opinion.


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## Corbettlight (Sep 4, 2009)

I though I might have to do something like that. The only question I had was this: My Element has 250 channels, but does it have 512 addresses for each universe? And when I'm telling my fixtures what their starting address is, what if they only go up to 512? Does the fixture see as number 1 what the console sees as number 513 (number 1 of the second universe)?

Let's say I want my MiNSpot to be addressed starting at 10 in the second universe; I can set it as address 522 in the console, and 10 on the light, and it should work, yes?


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## derekleffew (Sep 4, 2009)

[Apparently Element represents a change from the configurable DMX ports of the Express(ion).]

Correct, Corbettlight! Your console supports 1024 outputs (2 universes of 512 each) which need to be patched into 250 channels.http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/members/corbettlight.html

From http://www.etcconnect.com/docs/docs_downloads/manuals/Element_v1.6_User_Manual_RevA.pdf, (page 14):

> Element has two DMX ports. To output, connect one 5 pin XLR cable per port. The first port will
> output the first universe of DMX, addresses 1-512, and the second port is the second universe,
> outputting addresses 513-1024.


So devices connected to port 2 will always be addresses 513-1024 in "Address View", and 2/1-2/512 in "Port/Offset View." (page 32.) You can set the address of your first device to 010, plug it in to port 2, and patch it as 522 or 2/10. (Although unless you have other devices that use 001-009, why wouldn't you want to address the first fixture as 001?) Using "Port/Offset View" frees you from having to add or subtract 512 as applicable.


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## jmabray (Sep 5, 2009)

Be sure that you realize that even though on the console it might be address 522, on the actual devices themselves, you will never set an address higher than 512. It doesn't matter what universe the items are in, (They really don't know anything about universes) they will never be higher than 512. This is why I really like port/offset view rather than address view. It makes the ability to see this much much easier.


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## epimetheus (Sep 5, 2009)

DMX devices shouldn't allow you to address them as anything higher than 512, whether it uses dipswitches or a menu system. With dipswitches you have 1, 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128, 256 right to left generally. With all switches down (down generally = 0), the sum of the dipswitches is 0, or DMX address 1. With all switches up (generally 1), the sum equals 511, or DMX address 512. The tenth switch is not part of the DMX address assignment.

OP, it sounds like you already understand this, I just thought it might be a useful tidbit.


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## Corbettlight (Sep 5, 2009)

Yep, I've got it now. Thanks!


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## artisanrhodes (Sep 5, 2009)

I always like to put any moving lighys on a second universe-gotta keep-em separted.I also have been know to put differant types of fixturs separat


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## shiben (Sep 5, 2009)

In our arena, I like to keep the house lights on universe 1, the theatrical lights on universe 1, and devices in universe 2. That way, I never loose track of what im bringing up, and I never have to wonder if my devices are going to conflict with the rest of the lights.


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## mstaylor (Sep 6, 2009)

I have an Express and an Expression but I Have never used the second universe on either. I work with one company that has a Leprecan that we use an opto-splitter with on a regular basis. I have not actually used this board, just set everything in place and wired everything. The company's LD comes in and runs it. This the long way to ask, if you use two or more universes how does that effect the splitter. Can you only split one universe or the other?


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## soundman (Sep 6, 2009)

You can split as many universes as you have optos. But an opto can only split one universe to its outputs.


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## derekleffew (Sep 6, 2009)

artisanrhodes said:


> I always like to put any moving lighys on a second universe-gotta keep-em separted. ...


Um, no you don't "gotta keep-em separted." While there are a few fixtures that seem to "not play well with others," the vast majority of DMX devices don't care at all what else is on the data stream. Whether to split or daisy-chain a console's first universe or to use a second is solely a matter of system design and layout, for time, labor, budget, convenience, and reliability factors.


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## shiben (Sep 6, 2009)

It also matters how many channels you are using in each universe... The reason I like to keep devices in universe 2 in the arena is because when you start dealing with 350 channels of house lighting, 150 channels of dimmers, it starts to get hairy with making sure you dont grab the wrong thing. Maybe thats just because I usually have about 20 min. to set up a show and get it running, but either way.


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## derekleffew (Sep 6, 2009)

epimetheus said:


> DMX devices shouldn't allow you to address them as anything higher than 512, whether it uses dipswitches or a menu system. ...


Many devices use addresses greater than 512 to access stand-alone or diagnostic modes.


shiben said:


> ...it starts to get hairy with making sure you dont grab the wrong thing. ...


???
I didn't understand your earlier post, and since you've mentioned it again, could you elaborate? What console are you using? and is it a one-to-one patch? Once the console is patched, I have no idea, nor do I care, about universes or addresses, only control channel/fixture numbers.


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## mstaylor (Sep 6, 2009)

Thanks guys, I assumed my logic was sound. But having no experience with a second universe I wanted to check.


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## shiben (Sep 6, 2009)

The console is a congo Jr. and it is patched. however, I tend to be in a rush and very distracted, so I like having a definite line between where my devices are and where everything else is, IE, above channel 512. Its not a necessary thing, and it doesnt actually improve anything, except where the channels fall on the screen. Not really any good reason for it other than that.


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## fredthe (Sep 6, 2009)

Assuming the Congo Jr. can patch something other than 1:1, what you are looking for can be met without necessairaly putting devices in universe 2. What matters (as Derek pointed out) is what _channels_ they are patched to.

Theoretically, (within the board limitations, of course) you could have everything on one DMX universe (if it fit) but have everything that's not a dimmer start at channel 1000.

-Fred


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## TimOlson (Sep 8, 2009)

Fred, you wrote " have everything that's not a dimmer start at channel 1000."

I don't get it. Corbettlight stated that his console has 250 channels, but even if it had 2 unverses with 512 chanels each, blowing off all those channels < 1000 will use almost all of 2 universes for nothing and for no reason. as it is he only has 250 to choose from. 

it's so strange for me to even think about capacity this way -- it's been years since I used a board that had fewer channels than 512 per universe -- but if you're doing anything at all using the numerical keypad, that's just that much more typing and typos. 

other topics in this thread:
-) to opto or not: there's a 32 receiver limit per dmx run. In theory, that means you should be able to daisy chain up to 32 instruments, brain boxes, or other dmx devices. in practice, some manufacturers' products don't play well with others. in that case one might try using an opto splitter to clean up the signal and retransmit. 
-) if you have more than 32 dmx devices you must use another universe. in this day and age, a lot of LED devices are stand-alone dmx receivers. so it's not that unlikely that you may need to use universe 2.
-) I've used the 2nd universe of a console as a cheap optosplitter workaround - say if you have a console in between 2 positions, you can send a home run to each and not have a long DMX jumper between the two.
-) another common use for optos is to distribute the same universe to multiple locations, such as moving lights on different truss / batten systems / floor positions


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## Corbettlight (Sep 8, 2009)

TimOlson said:


> Fred, you wrote " have everything that's not a dimmer start at channel 1000."
> 
> I don't get it. Corbettlight stated that his console has 250 channels, but even if it had 2 unverses with 512 chanels each, blowing off all those channels < 1000 will use almost all of 2 universes for nothing and for no reason. as it is he only has 250 to choose from.
> 
> it's so strange for me to even think about capacity this way -- it's been years since I used a board that had fewer channels than 512 per universe -- but if you're doing anything at all using the numerical keypad, that's just that much more typing and typos.



I think you have a few terms mixed up. I don't know if it's because they are different on the Element or whatever. 

Channels on the Element correspond to one _device_, regardless of how many attributes it consumes. You might have a 30 address moving light, but it only takes up one channel. The Element has 250 (or 500) _channels_, but 1024 addresses (also known as attributes).


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## TimOlson (Sep 8, 2009)

It's a bright new day, so I went and looked at the manual. novel concept, eh? 

I'd be curious to know why ETC chose to do certain things:
-) whether you patch in channel or address mode, it's still the same info but with different syntax. this would seem to add potential for more confusion; with a target audience of beginners, this (confusing) option doesn't make sense
-) "standard format" for addressing into the 2nd and higher universe -- believe me, it's only "standard" in the world of ETC to bother board ops with numbers higher than 512. it's much easier for me to comprehend using the port/offset system. I normally let the console do my math for me; after I patch the console I then go address my movers and dimmers. it simply doesn't make sense to have to translate 513 (and it gets less intuitive the further into the higher universes) into univ 2 address 1. using port/offset, the number in the console is the same number the fixture gets addressed to.
-) in the rest of the world, a channel is simply a control channel or the equivalent of 1 dmx address. a fixture is a number of channels/dmx addresses that the console groups together and maps to controls such as encoders. in the ETC world, a channel can be a dimmer or an entire moving light. in the wider world, most consoles have a way to assign a unique fixture or channel number to a device to ease data entry. it seems ETC has bypassed this step by calling everything a channel.

When Fred says he likes to start his channels a 1001 for movers, the console has to have more than 1000 channels to do so. yours only has 250, so it would be impossible on your console in any case. on a higher level console, one could make the unique fixture number anything, since it's different than the control channel. in that case, on a hog or grandMa for instance, one could easily start their movers in the 1000 range.

even then, making such a long fixture number would really slow down keypad entry. it wouldn't make a bit of difference if one used palettess.

peace,

Tim O


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## icewolf08 (Sep 8, 2009)

TimOlson said:


> -) in the rest of the world, a channel is simply a control channel or the equivalent of 1 dmx address. a fixture is a number of channels/dmx addresses that the console groups together and maps to controls such as encoders. in the ETC world, a channel can be a dimmer or an entire moving light. in the wider world, most consoles have a way to assign a unique fixture or channel number to a device to ease data entry. it seems ETC has bypassed this step by calling everything a channel.


This isn't really true. Strand has been doing this at least since the release of the 500/300 series desks. Everything gets a channel. It makes way more sense than having CHANNELS for conventionals and FIXTURES for moving lights and devices. This allows you to patch every intensity in a logical order and not worry about what attributes are associated with that intensity, be it just a conventional on a dimmer, a unit with a scroller, or a full blown moving light. You don't have to call: "channels X, Y, and Z AND fixtures A, B, and C out" you can just call a range of channels, much simpler.


TimOlson said:


> When Fred says he likes to start his channels a 1001 for movers, the console has to have more than 1000 channels to do so. yours only has 250, so it would be impossible on your console in any case. on a higher level console, one could make the unique fixture number anything, since it's different than the control channel. in that case, on a hog or grandMa for instance, one could easily start their movers in the 1000 range.



Again, not really true. You have 250 channels, but there is nothing that says that those channels have to be 1-250. You can use 1-50, 101-150, 201-250, 301-350, and 1001-1050 if you want, as long as you don't exceed 250 active channels.


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## TimOlson (Sep 8, 2009)

Hey Alex! I re-read the manual concerning patching, and it didn't cover renaming channels at all. I know how the older express/expression line works, but I'm not so familiar with the newer stuff. so I called ETC tech support and spoke with Tracey. He didn't know the answer right off the bat, but was able to walk over to his Element console and give it a try. According to Tracey, it's not possible to re-number the channels on this desk. a 250 channel console will allow channels 1 through 250 and that's it.

as far as ease of use - there are so many different approaches for so many different uses that I was certain to rub someone the wrong way. I think we basically agree that it's better to avoid bouncing around between "channel" and "fixture" -- the way I do this is to either give everything a unique fixture number (hog) or to make everything a fixture (grandMa). that being said, if I find myself typing in any series of channels more than twice I simply make a group palette and choose things that way. 

Tracey was also able to share with me some of the foundations of why things are the way they are in the ETC world: most of it comes from user feedback. Tracey also mentioned that everyone has an opinion that they believe to be the right one! 

it is interesting to see how different products evolve; the ETC & Strand line of consoles has a much greater presence in Theatre than it does in the corporate events world that I live in, and the requirements are quite different.

peace,

Tim O


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## derekleffew (Sep 8, 2009)

TimOlson said:


> ...
> -) if you have more than 32 dmx devices you must use another universe. ...


Or an opto-splitter, as the 32 device-load limit is per data stream, not per universe. Theoretically, one could put 32 devices on each output of the splitter. As most splitters only have five or six outputs, one can also plug one splitter into the output of another to gain more.


Corbettlight said:


> ...Channels on the Element correspond to one _device_, regardless of how many attributes it consumes. You might have a 30 address moving light, but it only takes up one channel. The Element has 250 (or 500) _channels_, but 1024 addresses (also known as attributes).


I'm not sure this is true. We had this confusion when discussing the Strand Basic Palette, which comes with 100 channels. That console would only be able to control three of your theoretical fixtures having a DMX footprint of 30 channels, not 100.

bharrell said:


> ...If you have 4 movers that have 25 attributes each, then that will take up 100 channels. Every control parameter takes up a channel. Intensity, pan, tilt, color, gobo...etc. ...



I suspect the same is true of the Element 250. The number of outputs (1024) would seem to indicate it can control thirty-four 30-channel fixtures (34*30=1020), but I suspect it's limited by the channel count to eight (8*30=240). Anyone from ETC want to clarify?


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## jmabray (Sep 8, 2009)

derekleffew said:


> I suspect the same is true of the Element 250. The number of outputs (1024) would seem to indicate it can control thirty-four 30-channel fixtures (34*30=1020), but I suspect it's limited by the channel count to eight (8*30=240). Anyone from ETC want to clarify?



As far as I know that is not true. You should be able to control up to 34 thirty channel fixtures on an element. (At that point I start to wonder why your aren't buying an ION, but I digress...)

A channel is a channel. It can be a single conventional fixture, a conventional fixture with a moving mirror attached, a moving light, etc, etc.... 

An output (what used to be DMX addresses in ETC's world)or several is what makes up that channel, but you are only limited by output count, not by channel count.


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## Corbettlight (Sep 8, 2009)

No, you're limited by both channel count and output (address - it's still an address on the new ETC consoles) count. The Element 250 had 1024 addresses and 250 channels. Both things limit you. You could have 250 conventionals (and the channels limit you, as you are only using 250/1024 addresses), or you could have 34 30-parameter moving lights (and the addresses limit you, as you are only using 34/250 channels).


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## jmabray (Sep 9, 2009)

While channels are a limiting factor, they are not in the same way that they are on those Strand consoles that Derek was reffering to. That was where I was trying to draw the distinction. 

Sorry for the confusion.


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## fredthe (Sep 9, 2009)

TimOlson said:


> When Fred says he likes to start his channels a 1001 for movers, the console has to have more than 1000 channels to do so. yours only has 250, so it would be impossible on your console in any case.


While this may be true for some specific consoles, it's definatly not true in the general case.

On many modern consoles, channel _numbers_ don't have to be consecutive. So, if you only had 250 channels, 100 dimmers, and, say 10 movers, you could assign your dimmers to channels 1-100, and your movers on channels 1001-1010. You are still using less than 250 channels, as the numbering is arbitrary.

Edit: I just spent some time with the Element OLE... it looks like you are restricted to consecutive channel numbers so this wouldn't work for the Element. Do the EOS/ION have the same restriction for channel numbering?

-Fred


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