# Is College for Me?



## StewTech (Jul 27, 2012)

Howdy all. 

I know the sticky has some information, but this is really a specific problem. 

I have been involved in educational theatre and community theatre since I can remember. Last summer, I interned at a larger local production house, and this summer, I worked with the local Light-Opera company. I love it, and I want to do it for a living.

However, here is my conundrum;

I am planning on attending Otterbein University for a BFA in Theatre Design and Technology. However, I am going to have to take a out a loan of about $16,000 a year-my scholarships only covered about half. That's going to put me in a lot of debt. And the people in that program have said that a job is not something you can maintain during school because the program is so intense. I'd love to go, but it's very expensive.

To top it off, since I have no credit-I've never had a credit card or loan before, I need a cosigner for every loan I've tried applying for. Well, my mother refuses to cosign because she has already cosigned all of my sisters loans, and doesn't want to take on any more. However, my father has terrible credit, and recently went bankrupt. So every loan I've applied for has been denied. In other words, I can't pay for this school.

So, is it worth striving to make it work out and be that far in debt for a career in theatre? Or should I not go to school at all, and try to get a job at a smaller production house? Or, do I find a cheaper school with a less-than-awesome theatre program and make that work?

What would you all recommend?

Thanks,
B.


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## Footer (Jul 27, 2012)

Without help that you won't have to pay back, I think the traditional college route is not for you. 60k+ in debt is a lot of loans... by the time you get out that will probably be 70k after tuition goes up. That is WAY to much for anyone who wants a job in the arts. 

So, now what to do. You could go the cheap state school route, keep it cheap, and get as much out of it as possible. There is nothing wrong with that. Your piece of paper only takes you as far as your first gig. 

You could also do the community college thing and try to get as much out of that as possible. 

Finally, you could start sweeping the floor at your local rental shop. Odds are in 4 years you will have as much experience as anyone getting out of school and won't be broke as hell. Start calling shops. You could also start working at your local arts center or whatever and try to get in there. Where are you living now? Is there anywhere you can get work while not having to pay for every meal and keep a roof over your head?


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## derekleffew (Jul 27, 2012)

StewTech said:


> ... So, is it worth striving to make it work out and be that far in debt for a career in theatre? ...


Whether it's worth it or not, look at the practicalities. How do you expect to pay back at least $64K in student loans, even at 3% but more likely 6-10%, while making $10-15/hour?


StewTech said:


> ...Or, do I find a cheaper school with a less-than-awesome theatre program and make that work? ...


Bear in mind it's been 30+ years since I was looking at Ohio colleges. Off the top of my head, Wright State, CCM, Bowling Green, and Kent State are all more affordable, arguably better than Otterbein, and far from "less-than-awesome." I believe all offer a BFA.


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## StewTech (Jul 27, 2012)

Footer said:


> That is WAY to much for anyone who wants a job in the arts.



That's what I was thinking.


Footer said:


> Where are you living now? Is there anywhere you can get work while not having to pay for every meal and keep a roof over your head?



I'm currently living with my family. I graduated high school in May, so I haven't moved out yet.

There are jobs in the area-but nothing that would really be able to help me into my career. The Renaissance Theatre, where I've already interned, has hired me again as a Follow Spot Operator. I'll have that for the two weeks of the show. I did just finish working with the Ohio Light Opera, and I'm hoping that they may want someone for next year's summer stock. And since the gentleman I worked for was *ahem* released half way through the season, I am hoping that his job would be offered to me. 

But in the meantime, I've just been plugging my resume out to anywhere that is hiring anything theatrical. I even applied to a couple of theatres in Australia that were looking for ASMs. Places in any art-friendly area that need Run Crew, Board Ops, Follow Spot Operators, anything. I've even been so gutsy to apply for several ASM, SM, LD and such positions. I feel confident that I could handle it, but I feel like most of them are going to laugh as 90% of my experience is from community and educational theatre. 

I am afraid, too, that I will end up in a min. wage job as a SpotOp at my local theatre, and keep living with my parents for the rest of my life; which is not what I want to do.


derekleffew said:


> Off the top of my head, Wright State, CCM, Bowling Green, and Kent State are all more affordable, arguably better than Otterbein, and far from "less-than-awesome." I believe all offer a BFA.



I did apply for CCM, but I didn't make it. I have looked at BGSU, but everyone that I've spoken too has said that I'd be wasting my money there. I have seriously considered Kent, and BW, but that would mean killing off another year and applying next summer, hoping to get in, and that also makes me nervous.

I am not, however, tied to Ohio. I did apply and seriously consider The University of Anchorage, AK. However, Otterbein had a higher job placement rate, and they require and internship in your sr. year, which I really liked the idea of. So I'm currently enrolled there, I've got classes scheduled, and a roommate, and a dorm, and whatnot. I feel like I have to decide quickly, because I move in August 22.

I think I'm getting an ulcer from the worrying.


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## erosing (Jul 27, 2012)

StewTech said:


> I did apply for CCM, but I didn't make it. I have looked at BGSU, but everyone that I've spoken too has said that I'd be wasting my money there. I have seriously considered Kent, and BW, but that would mean killing off another year and applying next summer, hoping to get in, and that also makes me nervous.


Did you look at their spring semester application deadlines too, or just the fall ones?

If I were in your situation I would probably get a job (whatever I could, hopefully something at least somewhat relative, though any customer service will be a plus) and then I would save up until I had enough money to get to a better location. Keep sending out your (readily updated) resume, and getting as much local theatre work as you can. I would set a deadline for moving, say August 2013, either you get into a college program (spring or fall) and you're moving there with a little bit saved up, or you have found someplace to move with more opportunities. Either way there is a definite point at which you would roll the dice.


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## Footer (Jul 27, 2012)

StewTech said:


> I am not, however, tied to Ohio. I did apply and seriously consider The University of Anchorage, AK. However, Otterbein had a higher job placement rate, and they require and internship in your sr. year, which I really liked the idea of. So I'm currently enrolled there, I've got classes scheduled, and a roommate, and a dorm, and whatnot. I feel like I have to decide quickly, because I move in August 22.



Your not going there, I think that decision has already been made. 

Unless grandma gives you a bunch of money or someone hits the lottery, the current economic and college situation do not line up for you to go to school and still be able to survive in the real world. That sucks, a lot. Blame the generation before you that did not uphold the social contract that "everyone deserves and _affordable_ education". However, it is the situation your in. 

Get as much work as you can right now. Apply to anywhere that will give you work AND house you (Cedar Point, most summerstocks, etc.). Watch backstagejobs.com like a hawk. Assume you will be making just enough money to eat... however this is now going to become your version of college. 

The freelance lifestyle can work if you want it to. It means that when there is work, you gobble it up from every source possible. Many of the guys who work for me do this. This industry is set up for it because there is never enough good people and at the same time there is never enough work or there is too much work. One connection can easily lead to another. I hire just about everyone that works at one of the local LORT houses because their TD works for me. So, get all the work you can. In the mean time don't be afraid of a job in industry. I spent a summer pulling cable for an electrical contractor, it was one of the best learning experience I ever had. Call up the local IBEW and see if they can get you some apprentice work. Do the same for the carpenters union and iron workers. Having a trade in your back can do wonders. 

Finally, there is always the military if you really find yourself in a hole. If I get a resume' on my desk that has military experience, that person is usually my first call... no questions asked.


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## josh88 (Jul 27, 2012)

StewTech said:


> That's what I was thinking.
> 
> I did apply for CCM, but I didn't make it. I have looked at BGSU, but everyone that I've spoken too has said that I'd be wasting my money there.
> I think I'm getting an ulcer from the worrying.



I graduated from BG a year and a half ago, it was a great program then and has only improved since I left. Their design classes every once in awhile leave small gaps that you need to fill in with your own experience, but they just got a new department head who was one of the best people I worked with there and is on the tech side so he knows what the department needs. Also they just opened the wolfe center this year so now they've gotten all the kinks worked out and know how to work around any problems they have. The tuition has gone up a little bit, but if you can get on grant-in-aid which is just an "audition" to show some of your work and tell them about yourself. You have to work in the shop for so many hours a week and they cover a large portion of the tuition. 

They've got LED's to play with, though they still only have S4 Revolutions for movers, but otherwise the rest of the building is a state of the art theatre that rivals a lot of the proffessional theatres in cleveland and columbus. Plus the faculty there are great people. They know a lot and I call many of them friends.


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## StewTech (Jul 27, 2012)

Footer said:


> Your not going there, I think that decision has already been made.
> 
> 
> Get as much work as you can right now. Apply to anywhere that will give you work AND house you (Cedar Point, most summerstocks, etc.). Watch backstagejobs.com like a hawk. Assume you will be making just enough money to eat... however this is now going to become your version of college.
> ...



That's probably the most reasonable option. I have sent out my resume to several places on there, and I did just finish summerstock, and I'm getting ready for another show. 

I did apply for a position as as a Spot Op for the Big Apple Circus. They pay your travel, meals and such. That would be awesome to have, because not only would I have a job and place to live, but I'd be able to tell people I didn't go to Otterbein because I ran off with the circus. 

josh88 said:


> I graduated from BG a year and a half ago, it was a great program then and has only improved since I left. Their design classes every once in awhile leave small gaps that you need to fill in with your own experience, but they just got a new department head who was one of the best people I worked with there and is on the tech side so he knows what the department needs. Also they just opened the wolfe center this year so now they've gotten all the kinks worked out and know how to work around any problems they have. The tuition has gone up a little bit, but if you can get on grant-in-aid which is just an "audition" to show some of your work and tell them about yourself. You have to work in the shop for so many hours a week and they cover a large portion of the tuition.
> 
> They've got LED's to play with, though they still only have S4 Revolutions for movers, but otherwise the rest of the building is a state of the art theatre that rivals a lot of the proffessional theatres in cleveland and columbus. Plus the faculty there are great people. They know a lot and I call many of them friends.



That makes me feel better. 

I haven't looked at any spring semester deadlines...perhaps that is something I should do.

Of course, I could always go to the OSU Mansfield Branch and live at home for two years, get my Associates in Theatre. That's a good option too, right?


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## miketex517 (Jul 27, 2012)

Have you thought about taking a year off and working to save some money and going to collage a year later or maybe two .collage will help you get ahead in the industry but it is not needed .A good work ethic and doing the best job possible is what will get you ahaed in this industry


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## Les (Jul 27, 2012)

The good thing about college is it's never too late to start. Sure, it will be harder to schedule in as time goes on, but with online classes, grants, etc you can knock it out eventually. May take a little longer, but it's not a race. By then, you will be more financially secure.


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## Footer (Jul 27, 2012)

Les said:


> The good thing about college is it's never too late to start. Sure, it will be harder to schedule in as time goes on, but with online classes, grants, etc you can knock it out eventually. May take a little longer, but it's not a race. By then, you will be more financially secure.



However, that is going to be a useless degree. Any fine arts program that is online or night only is probably not worth the paper it is printed on.


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## LXPlot (Jul 28, 2012)

What I can say about Otterbein is that they are very good about job placement in Columbus. Jeez, it seems like everyone I've met here went there for undergrad. Whether it's worth the money is debatable. A lot of people finish in three years, and I've heard that for actors one should avoid it like the plague. Tech wise, it seems to be strong. They also have ROTC options and apparently are good about providing scholarships even after you're already attending.

BGSU is also a decent program (with a whole new theatre/equipment) and is in a "building stage", so they're actively trying to improve it. Either way (BGSU/Otterbein), I might be able to provide you with some informal introductions to a few people. 

I'm doing a show with Kent State's lighting professor and she seems very good as well. Don't know anyone there very well, but half the staff at Vincent went there.

OSU and OU I've been told aren't to hot for Undergrad, but Wright State might be to look at as well.

Regardless, if you end up in Columbus or want any advice about this town, shoot me a PM.


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## Les (Jul 28, 2012)

Footer said:


> However, that is going to be a useless degree. Any fine arts program that is online or night only is probably not worth the paper it is printed on.



True. I was speaking of completing basics online. Not sure if the fine arts portion would be easy to complete while working FT later in life. By that time you would probably have your foot in the door enough that you'd might as well skip the arts degree and go for a business degree or something equally useful for moving up from whatever current position you held.


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## Footer (Jul 28, 2012)

Here is the thing. Right now, you are in the perfect situation. You have no one breathing down your back to "make something of yourself". Your parents are not urging you to go to school. In society's eyes you have 4 years basicly free. If you play your cards right you have the potential to be farther along in 4 years than anyone comeing out of undergrad. Odds are you will also be in a lot less debt. 

Throw your hat in the ring with Big Apple. They are finishing up their run about 30 minutes north of me right now. They are a top notch organization. One of my former (he is now out with Ringling) guys went out with them for a year. He enjoyed it. The beauty of them is they fully support you, ie no out of pocket expenses. Apply to them... as well as Feld, all the cruise ships, and just about anywhere else you can send a resume' that is not the traditional rep theatre. 

I still look back and wonder what would have happened if I had just gone for it instead of going to school. I'm glad I went to school, but don't like the loans I have to pay off. Granted, between my wife and I we got off easy compared to what people are leaving with now, but it still sucks. So, take the opportunity and go with it. Its your life. Make it yours.


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## StewTech (Jul 28, 2012)

LXPlot said:


> What I can say about Otterbein is that they are very good about job placement in Columbus. Jeez, it seems like everyone I've met here went there for undergrad. Whether it's worth the money is debatable. A lot of people finish in three years, and I've heard that for actors one should avoid it like the plague. Tech wise, it seems to be strong. They also have ROTC options and apparently are good about providing scholarships even after you're already attending.
> 
> BGSU is also a decent program (with a whole new theatre/equipment) and is in a "building stage", so they're actively trying to improve it. Either way (BGSU/Otterbein), I might be able to provide you with some informal introductions to a few people.
> 
> ...



Will do!


Footer said:


> Here is the thing. Right now, you are in the perfect situation. You have no one breathing down your back to "make something of yourself". Your parents are not urging you to go to school. In society's eyes you have 4 years basicly free. If you play your cards right you have the potential to be farther along in 4 years than anyone comeing out of undergrad. Odds are you will also be in a lot less debt.
> 
> Throw your hat in the ring with Big Apple. They are finishing up their run about 30 minutes north of me right now. They are a top notch organization. One of my former (he is now out with Ringling) guys went out with them for a year. He enjoyed it. The beauty of them is they fully support you, ie no out of pocket expenses. Apply to them... as well as Feld, all the cruise ships, and just about anywhere else you can send a resume' that is not the traditional rep theatre.



I did apply with Big Apple, and I hope I get it. I will definitely have to look into to cruise ships...


Les said:


> The good thing about college is it's never too late to start. Sure, it will be harder to schedule in as time goes on, but with online classes, grants, etc you can knock it out eventually. May take a little longer, but it's not a race. By then, you will be more financially secure.



I know, I'm just afraid that if I don't do it soon, I'll never do it, you know?

Does anyone have any recommendations of non-traditional theatre settings I could apply to?


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## Pie4Weebl (Jul 29, 2012)

Go find a rental house/production company to work for!


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## ElectroCarp (Jul 29, 2012)

After reading through this thread I saw someone mentioned trying to work at Cedar Point. I think this would be perfect for you. I am working there now as an Electrician on Luminosity and love it, for the most part. Working for them is not a bad gig at all. Housing for next to nothing a week, REALLY cheap food in the employee cafeteria and they actually pay really well for their positions. Also you can potentially work for them in live entertainment from April/ May to November depending. What is a bulk of your experience in? stage management, electrics, carpentry?


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## josh88 (Jul 29, 2012)

Also luminosity is a huge step up as far as tech for them. They never had much of anything at that scale. It's a decent company most of the time.


Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk


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## gafftaper (Jul 30, 2012)

I agree with just about everything that's been said so far. I also think Cedar point would be a great option. There are several people around here with cool jobs who spent time working in theme parks when they were starting. 

As a former Community College T.D., I want to draw your attention back to that idea. Do you have any C.C.'s in your area? Do they have a drama program and theater? Here's the thing. If you can find a C.C. with a knowledgeable T.D. you can learn a lot and you can get a ton of experience. C.C. T.D.'s don't have a huge stable of great technicians to choose from. You will be one of a few people with real experience. You will have the opportunity to work on every show in every aspect of production, in the end you can leave with far more experience than a Freshman or Sophomore gets at a normal 4 year school. If you find a good T.D. to teach you, you can learn a lot. Now yes, there aren't a lot of great C.C. drama programs out there, but if you find a good one, it can be an excellent experience for a very good price.


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## derekleffew (Jul 30, 2012)

gafftaper said:


> ... I also think Cedar Point would be a great option. There are several people around here with cool jobs who spent time working in theme parks when they were starting. ...


And some still do (work in a theme park as a career). However, let's be realistic. What are the odds of a Major Theme Park hiring a fresh-out-of-high-school technician? I know one used to have an unwritten rule that they wouldn't consider hiring even "rising sophomores" I guess is the fashionable term, no matter how much experience on the resume.

Besides the education, a four-year college serves as a transition between adolescence and adulthood. I don't think anyone should recommend that an 18 year-old to move a big city in the hopes of landing a shop job with <three letter initialed lighting company>. Same for touring and cruise ship jobs; if they're willing to hire a high school student, how good can the company be, and can/will they pay a decent wage? That being said, see the job listing services at the end of the collaborative article Getting a Job in the Industry - ControlBooth .


StewTech said:


> ... Does anyone have any recommendations of non-traditional theatre settings I could apply to?


Find an A/V company in your area that does corporate shows. Just don't expect to be programming lighting or mixing audio for XYZ Pharma's new product launch. Corporate clients tend to frown on seeing an 18 year-old in a position of responsibility.

Also, in many markets there is a non-union stage labor company: Rhino Staging, CrewOne, Chicago Stagehand, etc. However, I wonder how many of their employees work often enough or earn enough to fully support themselves. For that matter, how many IATSE stagehands are full-time employees, particularly outside large cities?


josh88 said:


> I graduated from BG a year and a half ago, it was a great program then and has only improved since I left. ...


I note that two of Otterbein's professors got their undergrad at BGSU. Just sayin'.


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## josh88 (Jul 30, 2012)

derekleffew said:


> And some still do (work in a theme park as a career). What are the odds of a Major Theme Park hiring a fresh-out-of-high-school technician? I know one used to have an unwritten rule that they wouldn't consider hiring even "rising sophomores" I guess is the fashionable term, no matter how much experience on the resume.



I know Dan Deming who's running things over there, and he's a reasonable guy, he's made one big mistake in hiring that I can think of but other than that one time he doesn't usually take just anybody. Though he is willing to give someone with less experience a shot if they blow him away somehow.


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## gafftaper (Jul 30, 2012)

I should add a correction that you aren't going to get a glamorous job in a theme park straight out of high school, but you can probably get some sort of a job there and hopefully prove you are worth allowing to move over to a more glamorous job later. 

Do you have any friends or family who live in "the big city" whom you could live with for a while? If you are going to be trying to piece together a living working in a rental shop and doing crew gigs, you really need to get yourself into a big city. But as Derek pointed out, it would be foolish to try to move to the big city to start a career without some support as it may be months or even years before you find any paying work. 

Remember Gaff's rule: It requires a combination of Luck, Education, and Hard Work to get a full time gig in this industry. The less education you have, the more luck and hard work it will take. You can make it with no formal education but it will take you much longer to establish yourself. You have to work your way up from the bottom, running follow spots, sweeping the shop, and coiling cable. The years between now and when you can support yourself will be full of no or low income jobs. 

All that said, one of my old high school students called a local production shop and asked if she could interview the owner for her senior project. He liked her attitude and work ethic, so he hired and trained her himself. Within a year she was running sound for a wide variety of local concerts. Two years later she was out on concert tour with no formal education just a lot of pure luck and hard work. So it can happen quickly. On the flip side I know a lot of very good technicians now in their late 20's and early 30's who are still trying to piece together a decent living working as crew for 10 different theaters. A few hours here, a few hours there, working their butts off in lots of grunt calls just trying to pay the bills.


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## josh88 (Jul 30, 2012)

I forget what city you're in, but Columbus always has a bunch of work options, The Phoenix/Catco usually have internships posted and I know that at times those turn into longer term jobs with them. There are also great options in Cleveland, Vincent Lighting pretty often seems to need help in their rental department, I've had a few friends cycle through there. We even have one of their team on the forum here, though I can't remember the name off the top of my head.


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## LXPlot (Jul 31, 2012)

josh88 said:


> I forget what city you're in, but Columbus always has a bunch of work options, The Phoenix/Catco usually have internships posted and I know that at times those turn into longer term jobs with them.



If I understand correctly based on what I've done with them, for paying jobs they only want people with degrees.


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## greeneel (Jul 31, 2012)

StewTech said:


> Howdy all.
> 
> I know the sticky has some information, but this is really a specific problem.
> 
> ...



StewTech, You most definitely answered your question regarding college, I think you should try to get a job and a smaller institution and get your bearings from there im sure you would have more time to digest the program be able to work and save some money.

As it would be less of a strain, you could get another job and save towards the college.. I makes no sense putting yourself in debt especially in these times where no one knows what the future holds economically its not worth it. Do the latter get something small now and work towards that goal, keep focused and your eye on the goal and you will make it there. Dont rush being in debt isn't cool.


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## josh88 (Jul 31, 2012)

LXPlot said:


> If I understand correctly based on what I've done with them, for paying jobs they only want people with degrees.



Ah, been awhile since I've worked directly with anybody around there, I did have at least one person turn an unpaid internship into a job.


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## StewTech (Aug 1, 2012)

I thank you all for your responses. You are all very supportive, and this is more feedback then I've really gotten from family and friends.

So I gather I should go to school, somewhere, and get some sort of communications degree. 

It just frustrates me to work at community theatre levels as an intern and watch the designers work, and sit back and know that I could design a better show. I know it probably is horribly narcissistic, but I've created better light plots then some of these folks who are in a cushy salaried job have. When's it going to be "Rose's Turn?"

</rant>

But it is worth the four years at some school? I feel like they aren't going to teach me anything that I haven't learned, or couldn't learn on my own. In short, what I'm getting from this dialogue is that I need a piece of paper that says I have a degree in something-anything communications or theatre related?


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## Footer (Aug 1, 2012)

StewTech said:


> I thank you all for your responses. You are all very supportive, and this is more feedback then I've really gotten from family and friends.
> 
> So I gather I should go to school, somewhere, and get some sort of communications degree.
> 
> ...



No. You don't need **** to work. Getting a college degree for the sake of getting one as a "growing experience" is great. However, the debt following it is not worth it. 

On my "per-diem" call sheet I have about 60 people. Some have 30 years experience, from Vegas to Broadway. Some have toured with some killer acts. A few have spent time out with the circus. Others have MFA's. Some have BFA's. However, on my "first call list" (about 10 people), one has an MFA, another has no college at all besides a short training program in Iowa, another has a degree in political science, and one has a degree in dance. Off the top of my head I could not tell you what school any of these people went to. One of the guys I have been calling regularly is on about year 6 of a 4 year program because he is working his way through school. I would put my per-diem crew up against any crew of similar venues any day. I know these guys know what they are doing. It did not take a piece of to make me call these guys. Hell, it really didn't even take a great resume'. If you are available and I have a call to fill and I think your not an idiot by talking with you for a minute or two, you get a job for the day. If you do well that day and I see you have a good work ethic you get another call... and it continues. A few months down the line I get a call from another venue looking to fill a call and I suggest you... and the cycle continues. Sooner or later a vendor loses a guy and they see you at gigs and they call... 

You have to get lucky your first time. You have to be willing to do anything. You have to be a fast learner. You have to have KILLER people skills. You have to be good with names. You can't ever turn down a call. You basically need to be a sponge on the job. Read every book you can find. Read every thread here. Start learning audio, rigging, and carpentry. Read everything on LN. Ask questions on the job, just not too many. If you realize someone is willing to teach you, suck them dry. Finally, keep your head small. Your not going to behind the console. You are not going to be doing designs. You are going to be pushing box/plug in cable/pull rope get a banana. Eventually that work will come, but it takes time.

The life of a starting out freelancer is a hard one. You essentially don't have a resume' so its going to be even harder. In the short term get in where you can. At the same time go learn a trade. 

.....At least you don't have to write any term papers.


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## derekleffew (Aug 1, 2012)

StewTech said:


> ... When's it going to be "Rose's Turn?" ...


I suggest watching the movies _All About Eve_ and _Showgirls_ (for examples of how NOT TO do it).


StewTech said:


> ... But it is worth the four years at some school? I feel like they aren't going to teach me anything that I haven't learned, or couldn't learn on my own. ...


How wrong you (and Footer) are, grasshopper:

derekleffew said:


> Just found this quote from Tom Skelton's obituary, full text here:
> 
> > ...A genial, witty man, he asked his students at the Yale School of Drama to study everything from French to Picasso to cooking.
> > "These are all things that make it possible to communicate with the other people you are going to be working with," he said in an interview in _Theater Crafts_ magazine in 1989. "And I certainly don't think you should be studying amps and volts. I don't know very many designers who know very much about amps and volts. You hire an electrician who does."
> ...


If you want to be a box pusher, spot op, ME, or even programmer for the rest of your life, don't go to college. If you want to be a _good_ designer, you need the exposure to non-theatre courses that, minimally, a four-year degree offers.


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## josh88 (Aug 1, 2012)

derekleffew said:


> you need the exposure to non-theatre courses that, minimally, a four-year degree offers.



I have to agree with that too. I leaned a LOT doing outside work during college and teaching myself stuff. Things that filled in what I wasn't learning at school, but getting the hands on with people at school in a shop ran by people who knew what they were doing made me better at all of it. I know I learned stuff in school that I wouldn't have picked up out in the world. At least not that quickly. So it went both ways.


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## JChenault (Aug 1, 2012)

I've been reading this thread with interest - and there is one thing that has not ( IMHO) been brought out.

College is NOT a trade school. ( or at least should not be used as one ). It is a time when you get a chance to try out a number of possible career paths to see what you might like to do. Just coming out of high school, it is VERY unlikely that you really know and understand yourself well enough to know what your passions will be 10, 15, 20 years from now. This is the time that you need to be laying a framework for whatever career you end up doing.

Now that does not mean you should automatically plan to go to college straight out of high school. Taking a year or two off to get some practical experience in what you think you want to do is a very good idea. ( and going deeply into debt sounds to me like a very bad idea )

As I re-read your post, it sounds to me as if you are not totally set on a career as yet. 

Do you want to be a stage hand / electrician / Rigging 
Do you want to be a designer. Scenery, costume, lighting? 
Are you interested in stage management? 
Are you interested in teaching theatre at some point? 
What about theatre administration? 
All /Some of the above? 

Now for some of the things on this list, College is not essential ( although it might help you become a much more rounded person ). But for most of them, it will give you powerful tools that will help you get ahead.

Take that introductory Physics course. Then you will have a better understanding of force vectors and how to compute stress when you need to build something complex.
Take some intro to accounting courses so when you start your own production company you have some idea of how to keep books. 
Take courses in art history and literary criticism so you can communicate effectively with your design team, and have better insights about what you are doing.
And On and On. If you find something fascinating - pursue it.

My point is that there is a LOT more to the business than learning how to do the mechanical work of drafting a plot, hanging a fixture, building a flat, etc. And you will need all those skills if you want to make it as a designer or an assistant in the world of professional theatre.

I think Derek said it quite well:

derekleffew said:


> If you want to be a box pusher, spot op, ME, or even programmer for the rest of your life, don't go to college. If you want to be a _good_ designer, you need the exposure to non-theatre courses that, minimally, a four-year degree offers.



You don't have to do it in one four year chunk. You don't have to do it at one school. (Gaff's comment re: community college for the first couple of years if cash is tight is a very good one.) You don't have to get a degree in Theatre. But you need that exposure to the wider world just because you don't yet know what you don't know - and there is no way you could be expected to at this point in your life.

Good luck Have fun.


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## zmb (Aug 1, 2012)

JChenault said:


> Take that introductory Physics course. Then you will have a better understanding of force vectors and how to compute stress when you need to build something complex.
> Take some intro to accounting courses so when you start your own production company you have some idea of how to keep books.
> Take courses in art history and literary criticism so you can communicate effectively with your design team, and have better insights about what you are doing.
> And On and On. If you find something fascinating - pursue it.



Sounds like most of that would be in the baccalaureate core, commonly known as BaccCore being classes you would have to take to get any degree. I was touring Oregon State University last week and the average student anywhere changes majors 3 times, you never know what might happen.


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## LXPlot (Aug 1, 2012)

zmb said:


> Sounds like most of that would be in the baccalaureate core, commonly known as BaccCore being classes you would have to take to get any degree. I was touring Oregon State University last week and the average student anywhere changes majors 3 times, you never know what might happen.



That is true; however, theatre majors are very unlikely to change out of theatre, at least from the numbers schools have shown me. And it really depends on the college as to whether they would fall in the core. More likely than physics specifically would be some/math science and more likely than AH and literary criticism would be an art class, any history class, and any english (maybe specific intros to art, lit, history). The personal finance isn't something I've seen as needed for most majors anywhere.

All this said, I haven't looked at any colleges West of the Mississippi, so maybe different regions do things differently.


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## josh88 (Aug 3, 2012)

As examples of what BG required, you had to have at least 1 lab science as a major, though they had a geologic history of dinosaurs class which was awesome. Something like astronomy, and the department also requires a support field outside of the department that is pretty much what it sounds like, mine was education since that was the major I started with. There are a lot of great options and like zmb said many fall into the pool of take 3 of the 7 above etc. All schools have them, but some places give you wide enough options to take something you want to just for fun, or a class that might actually apply somehow to your major, like an art history type class, or british literature etc.


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## StewTech (Aug 5, 2012)

ElectroCarp said:


> Also you can potentially work for them in live entertainment from April/ May to November depending. What is a bulk of your experience in? stage management, electrics, carpentry?



To be clear, my focus the past few years has been in lighting design and stage management. I'd like to try artistic direction some day, but I don't know if it is for me.


derekleffew said:


> I suggest watching the movies _All About Eve_ and _Showgirls_ (for examples of how NOT TO do it).
> 
> How wrong you (and Footer) are, grasshopper:
> If you want to be a box pusher, spot op, ME, or even programmer for the rest of your life, don't go to college. If you want to be a _good_ designer, you need the exposure to non-theatre courses that, minimally, a four-year degree offers.



So now I'm getting mixed responses. I've successfully designed period shows by simply learning about the area on a per-show basis. When I needed to design a period piece, I simply learned about the era. I'm afraid that I'm going to be $65,000 in debt and only be able to talk about the 19th century, or with the BFA program, be able to wire the stage and never be able to purchase a house, or have a family because I'm paying $300 a month until I'm 60. 

So, now I'm getting mixed reviews. Do I need to get a liberal arts degree in something, somewhere, and just let the debt pile? Or is it not worth it?


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## Footer (Aug 5, 2012)

derekleffew said:


> I suggest watching the movies _All About Eve_ and _Showgirls_ (for examples of how NOT TO do it).
> 
> How wrong you (and Footer) are, grasshopper:
> If you want to be a box pusher, spot op, ME, or even programmer for the rest of your life, don't go to college. If you want to be a _good_ designer, you need the exposure to non-theatre courses that, minimally, a four-year degree offers.



The Skelton quotes are nice ones. However, it is leaving out one very crucial thing. A very small number of people actually support themselves only by designing Broadway an regional work. There are plenty of people who do industrial/concert work and do well but that is not what colleges teach anyway. Even than, very few of those guys are white gloved. Saying you can design and teach is not really an answer to having a career. Even after you land the college gig, the college theatre professional is one of the lowest paid members of academia. 


StewTech said:


> To be clear, my focus the past few years has been in lighting design and stage management. I'd like to try artistic direction some day, but I don't know if it is for me.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If you want to be the next broadway or regional designer you are not going to be able to do that by going to school, IF you plan on paying for school with loans... and private loans at that. At the current federal loan rate you will be paying 750 bucks a month for 10 years. 750 bucks a month. That is 9,000 a year. That is INSANE. The average theatre job out of college pays 600 bucks a week if you are lucky. A design/asst fee for most theatres that will hire you out of college is a grand or two. The average summer stock pays 400-500 bucks a week. So, do the math. You will never be able to be a designer and go to school on loans. It just simply is not going to happen if you intend on every doing anything with your life. That sucks. I know. But it is the current state of the education system and economy. 

Colleges have been set up to produce designers. Before college got horribly expensive you used to be able to carve out a living designing a few shows and playing technician on the side. It is not like that now. You now have to either pay off loans till your 40 or make 50k right out of college. The only way you can do that is with production jobs. The idea of becoming the next great designer is pretty much dead to anyone under the age of 30 simply due to the cost of the education. If you want to do that, move to a city that has a scene and start working for nothing. Wait tables during the day or sell jeans at the Gap. Society and the economy no longer has room for the intellectual with no real skills.


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## josh88 (Aug 5, 2012)

StewTech said:


> To be clear, my focus the past few years has been in lighting design and stage management. I'd like to try artistic direction some day, but I don't know if it is for me.
> 
> So, now I'm getting mixed reviews. Do I need to get a liberal arts degree in something, somewhere, and just let the debt pile? Or is it not worth it?



For some perspective, While at BG I did sound/lighting and scenic designs for our mainstage. I'm sure the student designs have gone down since the opening of the new building but the faculty is very good about getting students the opportunity and that'll likely come back once the faculty designers have had fun with all the new stuff. We did everything from mother courage, to winters tale, Trojan Women to importance of being earnest, and in the next two years they are doing Clybourne park, Spring awakening and Urine Town. So you'd get a mix of periods and style. I had a few years of college paid off from savings, but the last two years I worked in the scene shop on every one of the shows and had a huge chunk of my tuition covered for it. Got me out of there with no debt at all. Now with that education I have a full time teaching job at a private school making around $38k a year and I'm a year and a half out of school. I can't afford to buy a house, and I was living pay check to paycheck at times but that's also because I'm living in a city where things are pretty expensive. 

As a comparison I just got emailed a posting for Cleveland Public Theatre offering up to $32k a year for a TD and you could live outside of cleveland and save a ton of money. So it's all in what you want to do afterward and compromises you are willing to make.


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