# Running Lights



## sejordan (Sep 27, 2008)

Our theatre is looking for a new system of running lights. Currently we use clip lights with either blue or red lamps or gels taped across the reflector. 

Does anyone have an idea or system that requires fewer extension cords and is a little more efficient and visually appealing?


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## icewolf08 (Sep 27, 2008)

sejordan said:


> Our theatre is looking for a new system of running lights. Currently we use clip lights with either blue or red lamps or gels taped across the reflector.
> 
> Does anyone have an idea or system that requires fewer extension cords and is a little more efficient and visually appealing?



We are a professional company we and we still do it that way. Sometimes we hang a couple old ERS units over the props tables and such, but that is about it. We also use rope light to light the upstage crossover and sometimes to illuminate the edge of the deck offstage.


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## seanandkate (Sep 27, 2008)

For props tables we use Littlites. They are dimmable and come with a red lens if that's your fancy. We've also used ACLs in similar applications with good success.


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## gafftaper (Sep 28, 2008)

I've got a few extra S4 Pars I've been using... but that's just a luxury due to inventory and locations it's just easy. I've used rope lights in the past and they are great... although that seems like bad advice with the recent fire apparently caused by them. Just about everyone I know uses clip on lights or rope lights. 

A few years ago I took a bunch of clip on lights and wired them into several "christmas light strings" for use in a show. You could do something similar to cut down on the number of wires. You could also install some wire mold and outlets for your clip on lights to plug in in just the right places so you don't have extensions all over the place. 

Disclaimer: If you don't 100% *know* how to do these things don't guess. You should consult an electrician or you might burn your theater down... and that would be bad.


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## SteveB (Sep 28, 2008)

I'll admit right out, my system is elaborate, but saves ton's of time in not setting up and striking clip lights and assorted extension cords.

I have an overhang in the SR wing, with a suspended catwalk below, roughly 15ft. above deck. From that I mounted a DS to US set of Kindorf channel steel, to which I hung running lights in N/C and Blue. There are 5 Altman MicroEllipses @75w in N/C as well as 5 PAR38 fixtures with blue 90w floods.

For US crossover (behind our black-out drop), mounted with beam clamps from the grid, are 3 - 360Q 6x12's @575w lighting a path across the US floor as well as the US wall.

The rail lights are the original DS/US box installed with the rigging system in the 50's and consist of 16 - 34w A lamps. 

All home run to a Colortran ENR 12x2.4kw dimmer pack on the SR catwalk, controlled by a Leprecon LP612 controller mounted in a box on the DSR wall. The control allows for 5 zones of clear for SR, 3 zones of blue SR, 1 for crossover and 1 for rail. All can be switched to run from a Unison LCD station at DSR as well, though we don't use Unison for running as a practice. 

All equipment was surplus from assorted sources, so the only expense was running power to the ENR, cabling to fixtures, Kindorf and installation. We've had this system in place about 8 years ?, with the MicroEllipses replacing the original Colortran Mini-Ellipses. 

Fancy and expensive if I had to do it with new gear, but it works very well.

Steve B.


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## Sayen (Sep 28, 2008)

I haven't tried it yet, but I keep thinking those cheap little battery powered LED lights at Target/Home Depot that are designed for dark spaces in the home would work wonders in a theater - dim, and no power cord. I'm thinking about the ones you tap to turn on, little bubble lights. Small night lights work well too, depending on where your outlets are.

Currently I opt for the power-cables-running-everywhere method described above.


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## nobl13 (Sep 28, 2008)

We just use clip lights. What they lack in convenience in setup, they make up for in economy and versatility.

Zip cable is one of the reasons God invented gaffers tape.


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## gafftaper (Sep 28, 2008)

The Blues System is a cool product that I saw a demo of that would be awesome for back stage... but we are talking about a full install product here. Not something you can just throw together yourself.


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## Pie4Weebl (Sep 28, 2008)

seanandkate said:


> For props tables we use Littlites. They are dimmable and come with a red lens if that's your fancy. We've also used ACLs in similar applications with good success.


ACLs? Isn't the typical ACL lamp life something really low like 25 hours?


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## waynehoskins (Sep 28, 2008)

In college we always used clippy-lights with blue gel or lamps dipped in blue lamp-dip.

I've seen a couple of spare stage lights (S4s, Lekos, PARs, whatever) used to light the lock rail before. Also seen those old-school striplights for that purpose too.


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## Ross (Sep 28, 2008)

I had an ASM who didn't bother to tell me that she needed additonal runlight and every day just left her flashlight on and set it on the floor. Never asked me for replacement batteries either!


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## seanandkate (Sep 28, 2008)

Pie4Weebl said:


> ACLs? Isn't the typical ACL lamp life something really low like 25 hours?



On full -- yes. You double lamp life for every 10% you dim it. A little trick from an archetectural lighting designer . . .


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## coolbeam (Sep 28, 2008)

seanandkate said:


> On full -- yes. You double lamp life for every 10% you dim it. A little trick from an archetectural lighting designer . . .


Not exactly. From http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/collaborative-articles/7664-mathematical-formulas-lighting.html :

life/LIFE = (VOLTS/volts)^13 
(i.e. reduce the volts to 90% and the life increases by 393%!)


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## lieperjp (Sep 28, 2008)

We use old clip lights that used to be the pit orchestra's music stand lights, with blue, red, or regular 10W lamps in them. Backstage, there's not much room other than the stage, so the ambient lighting from stage works, usually. If it doesn't, well, the stagehands are fine - it's the actors that go bump in the night. In reality, though, I usually have a few saturated blue scoops in the plot, so those also work when the stage is supposed to be dark.

For non theatre shows, we sometimes use those small halogen desk lamps - but for halogen lamps they are surprisingly dim. We NEVER tape gel on them, and we NEVER remove the "safety stick" that keeps the light from getting too close from flammables.


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## trwenger (Oct 8, 2008)

We use blue rope light from Spencers. It's about 5 or 6 bucks for a string of about 8 feet. It works great, it flexable, and conects to each other at the ends.


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## derekleffew (Oct 8, 2008)

For those who use, or are considering using, ropelight, please see this thread: http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/news/9164-fire-high-school-stage-causes-25-000-damage.html. Whatever you do, please do not leave it on and unattended.


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## CavezziMagnum (Oct 8, 2008)

Over the years I have seen amny different methods in place. Most recently, at what I would suspect to be the most famous theater in Atlanta, their system is rope lighting. It is also used as their cue system for fly rail. There are 3 strips that are plenty of light when turned on. 

As stated in an earlier post, there is plenty of spill from the onstage fixtures that illuminates well, however, in the darker scenes, that isn't the case. 

And of course, who hasn't seen the clip light method? Tried and True.

Just my 2 cents.


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## Pip (Oct 8, 2008)

derekleffew said:


> For those who use, or are considering using, ropelight, please see this thread: http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/news/9164-fire-high-school-stage-causes-25-000-damage.html. Whatever you do, please do not leave it on and unattended.



Good point there, but it's highly likely they were using it wrong. Sure, it gets *warm* if it's ALL STRETCHED OUT. But if you have it bunched up in any way it gets wicked hot. We discovered this in my high school theatre when we used rope lights to light a piano's keyboard for Celebration. The excess, someone decided, should be coiled and covered in a blanket to keep light in. The wolhe mess was melted together at the end of the first night. Definitely would have started a fire eventually.

At the (professional) theatre I worked in this summer (The SaGaJi theatre in Colorado Springs, for the Colorado Springs Fine Arts Center Theatre Company) we just use clip lights with blue-dipped lamps in them. In the theatre I work in now, (it's a roadhouse, so that makes a difference) the Union Colony Civic Center, we have nice installed run lights all over... So that's more along the lines of this BluesSystem or whatever. My main point is: Clip lights work great. You can put them where ever, aim them easily, etc. Most theatres tend to have plenty of power outlets, so the need for tons of extension cord is eliminated...


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## gafftapegreenia (Oct 8, 2008)

I use clip lights extensively. Plus with the large box of 34 watt blue dipped lamps I have, I'll never run out.


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## Pip (Oct 8, 2008)

gafftapegreenia said:


> I use clip lights extensively. Plus with the large box of 34 watt blue dipped lamps I have, I'll never run out.



*high five*

We have cans of blue dip... If we break ALL of our lamps, we can just DIP MORE!


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## lieperjp (Oct 9, 2008)

I don't know what made me think of this today, but I remembered when I toured the University of Evansville Theatre Dept. They had some neat home made lights for running lights. They were a standard 75-watt(ish) bulb in a screw base. The base was mounted on a square piece of plywood. Over the top was a top and four sides. (So it was a cube... 8"x8"x8" roughly.) The top was just another piece of plywood (with a few small holes for venting.) The sides had holes in them with a gel frame in a slot in front. If they didn't need light coming out of one-two-three of the sides they would just drop a mirror or a piece of plywood in the slot. To provide a darker look, they would have a blue or a red gel in it.


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## VegasLites (Oct 9, 2008)

Ahh, lamp dip....so messy, so toxic. Anyway we now use blue LED bullet lamps in all our running lights. They have standard bases and they take years to die. They cost more than a single light bulb but it makes it up in never having to change them. We have put them in clip lights, sockets we have mounted on cable with beam clamps, and in Par20's and they all work great.


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## gafftapegreenia (Oct 10, 2008)

Which LED bullets did you get?

I've been looking at my options.


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## icewolf08 (Oct 11, 2008)

gafftapegreenia said:


> Which LED bullets did you get?
> 
> I've been looking at my options.



I saw a Westinghouse LED lamp at my dealer the other day. Standard medium screw base. Dealer said they come in a bunch of different colors. The globe is colored plastic which is nice because it eliminates the hazard of broken glass if dropped. PLus there is the long life thing. I asked for a quote, will let you know when I hear back.


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## VegasLites (Oct 11, 2008)

We use these 
http://trinorthlighting.com/Store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=62&products_id=253&zenid=ac10ecfa49769e56fcc5e189bccbe24d 
We buy them from bulbtronics and they are cheaper but not on their website...
They have a clear plastic cover so no broken glass when they get wacked by a piece of scenery. They are NOT dimmable so they are the level that they are...but you can always throw some neutral density at them. I personally find the output to be just right. But not for some riggers!


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## Goph704 (Oct 12, 2008)

Dimmable track lighting, blue light bulbs, go LED if you can afford it, Wal-mart if you can't


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## timeblazer (Oct 14, 2008)

We use dimmable 60 watt MES base lamps from Wal-Mart on our fly rail that spill onto the deck of the SL wing. Our ASMs just behind the Arch use clip lights with the same 60 - 75 watt MES base, that reflector is covered with Roscolux 68. We use the same clip setup on our props tables -- Flexible, reliable, redundant if needed, and not detracting to the audience.


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## Kelite (Dec 2, 2008)

nobl13 said:


> We just use clip lights. What they lack in convenience in setup, they make up for in economy and versatility.
> 
> Zip cable is one of the reasons God invented gaffers tape.





Sorry to resurrect this older thread, but I was handed a prototype this morning for you all to have a 'look see'.


The gel frame was made here at Apollo and will hold 7.5 inch gel cuts, as many theaters have Source Four PAR cuts in their stack o' stuff. 

Is this the right direction for this type of product? 

Should the MSRP still be in the $19.99 area?


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## derekleffew (Dec 2, 2008)

Kelite said:


> ...Should the MSRP still be in the $19.99 area?


For just the frame holder, or the entire fixture? Two-inch gaffer's tape is ~10¢/foot, or 4x 3" pieces, including courtesy tabs. Yes, the residue builds up and gets sticky, but ours seem to get lost, stolen, or broken long before that happens. Using Blacktak would be about 40¢/fixture.


McMaster-Carr lists the 8.5" diameter fixture, part# 1627K13, at $16.24/ea. I too, prefer the blue ceramic-coated lamps, or even these, but using white lamps allows one to easily vary the intensity by changing the color to suit one's needs.

Slight hijack: I think I've told this story before: I "caught" my house electrician using my 'good' 9" Round Super Trouper gel cuts to gel his cliplights. I went through and filed everything, and made a file specifically for him containing my rarely-used colors. It ended happily for both of us.


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## icewolf08 (Dec 2, 2008)

Kelite said:


> Should the MSRP still be in the $19.99 area?



I can get clip lights at the local hardware store for ~$5-$8, color frame is ~$5, so I can't see spending more than $15 on something like this.


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## SteveB (Dec 2, 2008)

Kelite said:


> Should the MSRP still be in the $19.99 area?



Might sell at $5.

Would I buy any ?. Nope, Derek explains why

Great idea for something everyone spends probably too much time on - gel'ing clip lights. $20 is an impossible sell to the general manager.

Thread hi-jack

I asked this of City Theatrical who wasn't interested.

Could somebody build an alternative to a LittleLite ?. The newer models are an improvement, especially as the power supply has a connector, but at around $60 for hi-intensity w/ base, I would think there'd be a market for a competing unit.

Just a thought

Steve B.


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## gafftapegreenia (Dec 2, 2008)

kelite! I really like where that idea is going. It's something I've been contemplating for a long time, glad to see you thought of it too. But $20 is too much, I'm sorry. However, I can see this being a useful item, another good thing on the list of apollo widgets. I suspect ship might show interest. The great thing about this is it allows the user the options of using a variety of white incandescent/fluorescent lamps that are much easer to find than specific colored lamps. 

$10 I could find reasonable, but that would honestly be my upper limit. 

At any rate my preference will always be for ceramic blue 25 - 60 watt A19 lamps.

I might start exploring LED options however.


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## cprted (Dec 2, 2008)

I haven't gelled a work lamp in quite some time. The 40w blue bulbs from Home Depot work pretty well and at $4/pair, works just fine by me.


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## SteveB (Dec 2, 2008)

Something else to consider before commiting to manufacture. Am I the only one here whose clip light reflectors look as good as they did when first purchased ?. No dimples, bent edges, etc... I really really rag on my crew to treat them nice. They don't listen, thus I wonder how well the gel frame would work on a well used reflector. 

SB


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## gafftapegreenia (Dec 2, 2008)

I still want to know how that thing attaches to the clip lamp reflector.

Is it some sort of "wrap around" thing that is specifically pressed? OR does it use screws/bolts/rivets?

Now, something that JUST popped into my mind this instant is how the old 16"/18" scoops were gelled. Check this out. 



Take that, scale it down to clip light size, and I think we have a better solution. 
http://mail.altmanltg.com/publicsynergy/docs/BLItemDossier.asp?Item=161-CF&PLID=&Country=US


The great thing about a product like this is I see potential for use in dirt poor storefront theatres and such. I think such a product could see application far beyond backstage blues.


To save on costs, you might be able to make at least one of the screws a fixed stud. Also, I don't know which is cheaper - thumb screws or little spring loaded studs.

OR 

Make it a two part plastic circular holder, and the two halves could cam or snap together.


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## Footer (Dec 2, 2008)

I have just been doing the blue 25w lightbulb thing for some time, works fine for me. 

Now... make one for stand lights and we will talk, seriously. Make one for stand lights.


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## cdub260 (Dec 2, 2008)

Right now I'm in the early stages of an upgrade to my backstage work light system to include permanently installed running lights. I'll be using a combination of T-5 and T-8 fluorescent fixtures with R-68 gel tubes. I've completed one portion of the install already, and the new lights work beautifully, though I may need to add some masking to one fixture or relocate it to deal with a minor spill issue.


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## cprted (Dec 2, 2008)

Footer said:


> Now... make one for stand lights and we will talk, seriously. Make one for stand lights.


I second that motion.


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## Kelite (Dec 3, 2008)

cprted said:


> Now... make one for stand lights and we will talk, seriously. Make one for stand lights.
> 
> I second that motion.





As in - music stand for orchestra - lights?


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## Footer (Dec 3, 2008)

Kelite said:


> As in - music stand for orchestra - lights?



These things are no fun to gel, and the musicians hate it when you do. If the gel could easily be attached, cleanly, one might think that they would leave it alone. 



This style is a bit easier to gel, but they still leak fairly bad. Lamp dip is an option with both styles, but that can get to be a real pain.


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## sejordan (Dec 12, 2008)

lieperjp said:


> I don't know what made me think of this today, but I remembered when I toured the University of Evansville Theatre Dept. They had some neat home made lights for running lights. They were a standard 75-watt(ish) bulb in a screw base. The base was mounted on a square piece of plywood. Over the top was a top and four sides. (So it was a cube... 8"x8"x8" roughly.) The top was just another piece of plywood (with a few small holes for venting.) The sides had holes in them with a gel frame in a slot in front. If they didn't need light coming out of one-two-three of the sides they would just drop a mirror or a piece of plywood in the slot. To provide a darker look, they would have a blue or a red gel in it.


Thanks for the home made idea and thanks to everyone who has posted on this thread. You've all put out some great ideas that I can pull from!


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## cprted (Dec 12, 2008)

Footer said:


> These things are no fun to gel, and the musicians hate it when you do. If the gel could easily be attached, cleanly, one might think that they would leave it alone.


Given they are musicians, that is asking a lot. I should know, I was one. Musician with a tech background, every TD's favourite symphony member 

Blue fish tanks bulbs would also make me a happy camper. But I've never been able to find any.


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