# A new HS theatre under construction



## BillConnerFASTC (Dec 21, 2018)

I swear I posted some pictures of this from an earlier site visit but can't find that thread. (If a moderator can find the other thread, merge them and I'll try to continue posting progress in that one.) Anyway, here's progress since, taken a week ago. Thus is around 850 seats on 2 1/2 levels and 50' stage with orchestra pit.




View from DSL to USR and loading bridge and modified gridiron (catwalks)




Pit (rail) with block outs for lip speakers. This pit has a tensioned wire grid under the pit filler platforms.





And lastly, I watched from the balcony - the JLG ballet. The "aperture" effect then passing was kind of cool.


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## macsound (Dec 21, 2018)

quite incredible for a high school
I worked in a community theatre and community college theatres that weren't nearly this well outfitted. 
Great job!


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## BillConnerFASTC (Dec 21, 2018)

Found it! Earlier pictures half way down. https://www.controlbooth.com/threads/middleton-be-safe.44424/

(Edit by Mod. https://www.controlbooth.com/threads/middleton-be-safe.44424/#post-387410 and six subsequet posts.


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## JonCarter (Dec 21, 2018)

All pre-cast tilt-ups? Must have been lotsa coordination to get the electricals in & at the right places.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Dec 22, 2018)

Combination of some recessed, house is all furred and gwb, and surface in upper areas of auditorium and stage, just not stage level on stage. Some niches designed in where things can be clustered.


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## JohnD (Dec 22, 2018)

The photos @BillConnerFASTC posted make me think of a new facility being built at Oklahoma State University.
https://osugiving.com/mcknight-center
The 360Degree video and the construction progress videos are interesting, you have to realize that they are primarily ads for donations to the endowment fund.


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## SteveB (Dec 22, 2018)

We had a photographer at our newly opened facility a few weeks back, he was some famous guy, flew in from San Fran. Needed some support to get lighting systems turned on for the pretty pictures, all good. When he got to the large music rehearsal space that had been re-purposed for the theater dept. to do an MFA production, the theater tech's said "NO, we are not opening the big curtain so you can get a shot out the windows of the campus (the set was in the way in any case)m wey're in the middle of focus". Photog guy made a huge stink, made phone calls, 2 to me "No" I said, they are doing a focus, they need the curtain closed all day, it's their only focus day". Photog threw a fit, went to the Theater Chairperson, went to the Dean. Curtain stayed closed.

What the photag guy couldn't know was we were aware these were photo's to be used by the architect so they can submit for an award for "best design" in some magazine and that ALL the staff is unhappy ("hates" would not be the wrong word to use) with the architect for the many, many problems we deal with due to bad design choices as well as a deliberate lack of communication with the end user, who they knew existed and had our phone numbers and e-mails, we had been on the initial design meeting. So YES, we have an attitude and NO, we am not cooperating much with your photographer to make pretty pictures. 

Bad attitude I know, just wishing Bill had been on the project.


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## EdSavoie (Dec 23, 2018)

I can hardly believe there's a high-school board left willing to spend the money on a theatre... Not that i'm complaining, i just haven't seen a high-school built after the 60s with a full theatre.


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## JD (Dec 23, 2018)

EdSavoie said:


> I can hardly believe there's a high-school board left willing to spend the money on a theatre... Not that i'm complaining, i just haven't seen a high-school built after the 60s with a full theatre.


It's not so much the money for new construction that is the problem these days. It's the hassle of maintenance, where after built it's a major undertaking to find funds to replace a single lamp!


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## BillConnerFASTC (Dec 23, 2018)

EdSavoie said:


> I can hardly believe there's a high-school board left willing to spend the money on a theatre... Not that i'm complaining, i just haven't seen a high-school built after the 60s with a full theatre.


Must be a lot more. I'm just one solo office. I think in US there are 40-60 theatre consultancies, many solo or just a few people, a few large ones - maybe in range of 150-200 people full time. (If you have read many of my posts, you'll know I don't include vendors and sales reps - they don't give unbiased advice nor do they generally have expertise covering the full range of theatre design. Nobody sells aisles after all, and so on.) So this was a big year - 10 new build high school theatres for me. 4 to 6 is not uncommon. 20-30 years ago maybe 1 to 3 a year. 

Back in very early 2000s the DOJ asked me to develop some stats on theatre planning - numbers and dollar values - for impact of ADA. We estimated that in US thereweresomewhat over 500 theatres - assembly occupancies built for the purpose of performing arts - with a value near $4 billion. NOt sure how many were high school but I'd say at least half. One manufacturer is pretty good with data but ultimately, they only seem to find the high school segment statistically significant. 

50,000 high schools in US? I think in that ballpark. Probably more than half have theatres - more than a cafetorium. Pretty sure more than 2% are built new or major rebuild. More than half of mine are "PAC additions" to existing high schools.

Its too bad that the industry doesn't do better with the research and stats. How many manual line sets are there? How many motorized? ETC knows average number of dimmers and fixtures from many high schools. How many rigging accidents, pit falls, opening nights, and so on. Great stuff to research.


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## venuetech (Dec 23, 2018)

So it looks great but I am curious about access to the load plate. From the plans I see a spiral staircase on the house side of the procinium. But the photos show no access from there to the load plate. Is this something that will get cut in later? Or am I just not seeing things right?


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## BillConnerFASTC (Dec 23, 2018)

I like to get the vertical circulation out of the wings to maximize clear floorr space. So its behind the cheek wall, goes up to a jump at foh catwalk level. In this one there is just room for a ships ladder to end of loading bridge. Usually extend catwalk into stage under loading bridge around 25 to 30 feet above stage and and ladder up 10 to 15 feet through loaing bridge.


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## danhr (Dec 26, 2018)

JD said:


> It's not so much the money for new construction that is the problem these days. It's the hassle of maintenance, where after built it's a major undertaking to find funds to replace a single lamp!


One of our LD's does design/consulting for a local suburban high school. Not being an electrical guy last fall he asked me to "take a look at some of the instruments." At least 20 were dead, with either bad lamps, cooked sockets or both. I sorted through what we could get going with just a lamp replacement (about half) and figured out a ball park number. After checking with the district, the answer was basically, "we don't really have a budget for that....."


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## venuetech (Dec 26, 2018)

danhr said:


> One of our LD's does design/consulting for a local suburban high school. Not being an electrical guy last fall he asked me to "take a look at some of the instruments." At least 20 were dead, with either bad lamps, cooked sockets or both. I sorted through what we could get going with just a lamp replacement (about half) and figured out a ball park number. After checking with the district, the answer was basically, "we don't really have a budget for that....."



The building secretary would call the budget “the shifting sands” our process for the next fiscal year starts in the early fall and is firmed up by mid November. So next September is when to submit to your administrative office.
But you should try to make them aware of the needs this year so they can figure just where to pigeonhole that lineitem. For example I would submit a work order to the facility maintenance department for repair of lighting fixtures . What the heck, they might fix them and you would just need to align the lamp. Do they rent the space?
Renters and parents can justifiably squalk about broken fixtures. Squeaky wheel gets the grease.


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## epimetheus (Dec 27, 2018)

venuetech said:


> So it looks great but I am curious about access to the load plate. From the plans I see a spiral staircase on the house side of the procinium. But the photos show no access from there to the load plate. Is this something that will get cut in later? Or am I just not seeing things right?




BillConnerFASTC said:


> I like to get the vertical circulation out of the wings to maximize clear floorr space. So its behind the cheek wall, goes up to a jump at foh catwalk level. In this one there is just room for a ships ladder to end of loading bridge. Usually extend catwalk into stage under loading bridge around 25 to 30 feet above stage and and ladder up 10 to 15 feet through loaing bridge.



I'm with venuetech, in post #1, the first picture, it doesn't look like there's a opening in the proscenium wall to access the loading bridge from the spiral staircase. Will they cut this in later? I would have thought it would have been cast into the wall panel.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Dec 27, 2018)

I see your question. The opening is not there yet. Yes, the CM prefers to cut all openings after erection. Less breakage during erection. An opening for a 6' door in one end of 10 x 50 foot cast panel is apparently and understandably more likely to break.


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## venuetech (Dec 27, 2018)

So danhr’s comment brings up the question how is the owner/operator planning on administrating the new facility? Will they add or do they have knowledgeable staff? Will they add a line to their annual budget for maintenance and improvements? They are aware that annual equipment inspections are needed? I am assuming most of this is addressed for new buildings. 
These questions are not directed at any one facility but rather new venues in general. 
I know at my old school district they now have a small staff that deals with 4 district wide venues. So administration of the facility is not directly linked with the high schools that they are attached to. They do work directly with HS staff to meet their needs.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Dec 27, 2018)

In this case, besides having stated at first meeting with school that they will need more manhours to operate the new facility, I believe they upped the manager position from 1/10 time to 1/4 time, and have allowed for hourly work.

It is indeed unfortunate that funding for performing arts facilities in public schools is now or never, a once in 40 or 50 year bond issue that includes the arts.

I consulted on a $140M arts high school in a major city, built while teachers were being laid off citywide. School facilities built with bonds are totally apart from operating budgets and payroll.


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## macsound (Dec 27, 2018)

I've worked with schools on Bond based networking upgrades, mostly those that had 10BaseT and upgrading fiber backbone or adding wifi or even older when only the library had networking at all. 
Usually, the budgeting of the bond allows some labor to be included for post buildout. Usually they consider this maintenance to be a network admin who gets paid through the bond and not the school's budget and therefore usually runs out after 2 years while maintaining about $25k in reserves for possible disaster and overhire needs. 
In that period of time, they are able to take someone who previously worked at another school, give them a "promotion" and move them to the district so they can manage multiple campuses at 1/5 or 1/6 time.


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## epimetheus (Dec 28, 2018)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> I see your question. The opening is not there yet. Yes, the CM prefers to cut all openings after erection. Less breakage during erection. An opening for a 6' door in one end of 10 x 50 foot cast panel is apparently and understandably more likely to break.



Gotcha. There's definitely an art to precast construction. It's things like this where you have to rely on your precast vendor and experienced construction forces for constructibility and it's influence on design.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Dec 28, 2018)

epimetheus said:


> Gotcha. There's definitely an art to precast construction. It's things like this where you have to rely on your precast vendor and experienced construction forces for constructibility and it's influence on design.


The frustrating thing about this is the next CM or GC might feel as strongly about the opposite view - no cutting on site. It doesn't have a major influence on design but I do try to plan based on what I have learned from the workers on site - riggers, electricians, and all the others. But the preferences and certainties vary a lot, so hard know. And that conflict is even larger in rigging between the installer and the shop people - drafter and estimator. I try to listen to the installer and make the case with the factory since the success of the design is dependent on the installer. Intehend, there is seldom one "right" or "best" way and with design-bid-build delivery, you don't know preferences till after its under contract and hard to change. (And then since the theatre equipment is generally towards the end of construction, all the contingency money has been spent, so better not need anything not already under contract.)


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## IanTech (Jan 14, 2019)

@BillConnerFASTC Do you have higher resolutions of the plans posted in the other thread? The text is kinda blurry. I'd also like to see the AV Drawings referenced, is there anything special/unique about the theatre?


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## BillConnerFASTC (Jan 14, 2019)

I have the entire CD set, but don't feel I should share other than mine, and I don't do AV. Contact me -www.bcaworld.com - and I'll share the pdfs of my drawings.

I don't know what you would consider special but the side galleries in auditorium seem a little unique to me for a high school. Full orch pit, 30 some linesets, motorized electrics and shell, all LED lighting, 50 ft stage - nothing special except a lot of high schools - a majority of the near 35,000+ high schools in USA - don't have a lot of those. 

Most unique - not over budget on bid day. That's rare these days.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Jan 26, 2019)

Progress shots courtesy of and with permission of the superintendent.

You can see the opening to the loading bridge has been cut, side (stageright) and forestage catwalk framing commenced, "cheek" walls almost complete (they get veneered with brick) and the balcony and side galleries in place. The flat area between the upper level and balcony rail will be built up with geofoam and then concrete topping for the balcony risers with costume storage under.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Jan 26, 2019)

Two more photos from stage.


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## TimMc (Jan 26, 2019)

Nice curves, Bill!


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## venuetech (Jan 26, 2019)

Ok now I am curious about some construction equipment I don’t recognize. In the wide view of the stage from the balcony, on the right side, there seems to be some sort of self climbing work platform, supported only by a single column. I think I see the same on the left side but the platform has been lowered so only the column is clearly seen. It all looks to be involved with laying the brick facing Just what is that called?


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## MNicolai (Jan 26, 2019)

@venuetech That's a mast climbing work platform. They're pretty common in commercial construction and high-rise work because they're much easier to set up than scaffold towers and carry heavier loads.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Jan 26, 2019)

One "new" to me thing was they poured a complete slab below the lowest part of seating bowl to work. I'm accustomed to seeing gravel and sloped slab last, or sloped slab and gravel on top to provide level area for lifts and such, but this was new to me.


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## MNicolai (Jan 26, 2019)

Are they going to build that entire sloped slab up from concrete or are they going to lay something down like rigid foam blocks and pour over that?


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## BillConnerFASTC (Jan 26, 2019)

I don't really know but I presume compacted fill and 4" slab on that. I think they plan to ask for permission to leave the temporary slab, but I don't know if the fill under it was reviewed. On the other hand, with all those boom lifts running around on it - I sure wouldn't give leaving it a second thought. But I'm not the registered professional responsible for that bit.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Apr 24, 2019)

Progress. Google photos was so kind to make an "album" so going to try sharing by link, rather than download, resize, and post - all of which I'm not good at.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/mYFitT3M7F1L4B3v9


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## SteveB (Apr 24, 2019)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> Progress. Google photos was so kind to make an "album" so going to try sharing by link, rather than download, resize, and post - all of which I'm not good at.
> 
> https://photos.app.goo.gl/mYFitT3M7F1L4B3v9



Geez, what a luxurious place, you’ve got a real countertop for the consoles in the booth !. We had 2 of our 3 booths built with no counters. The Arch. and/or consultant forgot them. We are still on folding tables 11 mos. later.


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## JonCarter (Apr 24, 2019)

Unbelievable for a H.S.! But it looks a little short of fly space--couldn't they afford another 20' and a grid? And what looks like a concave curved house rear wall will be fun for the sound guys.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Apr 24, 2019)

The first foot over 50 is over half a million, so no they couldn't afford another 20. High trim is around 45+'. How tall a drop or scenic piece do they need to fly to justify that cost? And they can reach every lift block from the catwalks over stage so while a grid is desirable, I think the extra 7' of high trim is more desirable.
There are reverse scallops across the rear wall, and a curtain when they need much sound system. The priority is natural acoustics for music. Speech events, film, the annual musical, and the infrequent be amplified music can have a soft rear wall if desired.


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## cbrandt (Apr 25, 2019)

So what is the rigging plan for this space? It looks like there might be space for a loading rail up in the catwalks, but it didn't look like there was much space for a full manual counterweight system on the deck. Is it planned to be all automated?


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## RonHebbard (Apr 25, 2019)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> The first foot over 50 is over half a million, so no they couldn't afford another 20. High trim is around 45+'. How tall a drop or scenic piece do they need to fly to justify that cost? And they can reach every lift block from the catwalks over stage so while a grid is desirable, I think the extra 7' of high trim is more desirable.
> There are reverse scallops across the rear wall, and a curtain when they need much sound system. The priority is natural acoustics for music. Speech events, film, the annual musical, and the infrequent be amplified music can have a soft rear wall if desired.


 *@BillConnerFASTC* Who were your architectural-acoustic and electro-acoustic consultants?*?* 
Toodleoo! 
Ron Hebbard


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## Van (Apr 25, 2019)

Speaking of New construction... Went to a Job site yesterday for a coordination meeting. We're supposed to be onsite next week to Field measure the space.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Apr 25, 2019)

cbrandt said:


> So what is the rigging plan for this space? It looks like there might be space for a loading rail up in the catwalks, but it didn't look like there was much space for a full manual counterweight system on the deck. Is it planned to be all automated?



This should answer that. 39 linesets - 7 of which are motorized (3 shells and 4 electrics). There is a rigging pit (picture between orchestra pit and electrical panel room) with lockrail at stage level.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Apr 25, 2019)

RonHebbard said:


> *@BillConnerFASTC* Who were your architectural-acoustic and electro-acoustic consultants?*?*
> Toodleoo!
> Ron Hebbard


Stan Roller Associates provides both.


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## AlexDonkle (Apr 25, 2019)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> There are reverse scallops across the rear wall



First time I've heard that term, but I like it!


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## RonHebbard (Apr 25, 2019)

AlexDonkle said:


> First time I've heard that term, but I like it!


 *@AlexDonkle * FASTC members employ reverse scallops to create reverse reflections for dual redundant cancellation. *@TimMc* Did you have the term patented or trade-marked?*?*
Toodleoo! 
Ron Hebbard


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## BillConnerFASTC (Apr 25, 2019)

Here's a clip showing (half) of rear wall. The defocusing scallops are in the background.


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## JonCarter (Apr 25, 2019)

@billConner Glad to see the scallops & curtain in the detail plan--couldn't see them in the photos of the bare walls of course. Where does the orchestra shell store when it's out?


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## BillConnerFASTC (Apr 26, 2019)

Ceiling stores in loft - under the modified gridiron/stage catwalks. It comes close to using all of the "shadow" of the catwalks, the basis of the modified grid. The towers nest and store in a notch up stage center. See in the plan - to right - a few posts above.


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## Jay Ashworth (Apr 29, 2019)

Did you get After photos, Bill? I assume it's done now?


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## BillConnerFASTC (Apr 29, 2019)

Not till hopefully for fall semester opening. Most pics here are only days after being taken.


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## JonCarter (Apr 29, 2019)

I still can't believe that high schools (except for maybe a couple of ritzy private ones, that is) _can _and _do_ afford theatre plants like this. I just hope that they also provide ongoing budget for equipment and staff comparable to the building.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Apr 30, 2019)

They tripled staff for this - from 0.1 to 0.3 position. 

I think they are committed to keeping it in good shape. 

Above average public school auditorium and stage? Sure. It's what they wanted and they did get top-notch gyms and stadiums first. And when I look at schools built in the 20s and 30s, they wanted good auditoriums and stages. What happened in the 50s and 60s I don't know - but theatre planning suffered a lot and it has a lasting impact - the schools that many of today's architects and school admin grew up in.


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## NickVon (Apr 30, 2019)

I love reading your posts about these projects @BillConnerFASTC.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Apr 30, 2019)

NickVon said:


> I love reading your posts about these projects @BillConnerFASTC.


Why thank you. I wish I was better with photos and posting more projects. This one is a little special as result of getting to know school folk better than most projects. I figure as work load decreases - no longer accepting new work (Wait? $100 million dollars? Well maybe) I hope to have more time to write.


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## TimMc (May 1, 2019)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> Why thank you. I wish I was better with photos and posting more projects. This one is a little special as result of getting to know school folk better than most projects. I figure as work load decreases - no longer accepting new work (Wait? $100 million dollars? Well maybe) I hope to have more time to write.



I'd hope you continue to write and publish, Bill. You are one of a very few "theater consultants" who doesn't appear to be a shill for the architects.

As an audio systems engineer and designer I understand consultant desires to stay out of the details of main sound systems (and you provide valuable insight into the auxiliary systems like DR page, green room, lobby, etc feed) but I want to invite you to the Pro Sound Web "Live Audio Board" forum where there is a current discussion about a theater renovation and equipment selection. There have been a number of comments (including mine) about audio - and to a lesser extent, LX - getting thrown under the bus during construction and blaming various consultants, architects and short-sighted "committees" that care more about the exterior than functioning for intended purposes. Or you could enjoy your retirement .


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## JohnD (May 1, 2019)

@BillConnerFASTC , good to hear of your plan to write more, but is there a book or two in your future? Either "For Dummies" book or better yet, something like a Focal Press book (with lots of photos and drawings).

@TimMc , yeah that PSW thread is interesting. I do have to wonder about the types of consultants involved. To my way of thinking there is a big difference between independent consultants and dealers who consult.


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## BillConnerFASTC (May 1, 2019)

Hearing and seeing the performers are the highest priorities and fortunately close proximity of audience and performers is fundamental to that.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Aug 25, 2019)

Doing final check - well supposed to be but too much not complete so will come back for true final and more photos. Just one from this trip.


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## RonHebbard (Aug 25, 2019)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> Doing final check - well supposed to be but too much not complete so will come back for true final and more photos. Just one from this trip.
> View attachment 18374


 *@BillConnerFASTC* The DSC area of the deck, the portion that appears darker in your photo, is this an elevator, or*??*
I'm seeing what appears to be a standard height door in the USL corner, what is the purpose of the taller, wider, door immediately on-stage of it and does this larger door close and, if so, how*??? *
What's the purpose of the MUCH larger opening USC*????*
Toodleoo! 
Ron Hebbard


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## BillConnerFASTC (Aug 25, 2019)

No lift. Pit filler with different hardboard. Was all painted a few hours after photo.

Double door sound and light lock usl; 10 x 16 roll up doors - 2 in tandem - for loading (both controls inside so to close both, your stuck! That will get fixed.) Orchestra shell tower storage niche in center .

The toll up doors are usually not very good for noise but these are rated for hurricanes - a happy discovery - and are pretty good for reducing noise transmission.

I'll paste a plan when I get back late this week. (Passing by you on the 401!)


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## IanTech (Aug 25, 2019)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> No lift. Pit filler with different hardboard. Was all painted a few hours after photo.
> 
> Double door sound and light lock usl; 10 x 16 roll up doors - 2 in tandem - for loading (both controls inside so to close both, your stuck! That will get fixed.) Orchestra shell tower storage niche in center .
> 
> ...



What kind of fixture/lighting is inside the proscenium arch? LED tape?


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## RonHebbard (Aug 25, 2019)

IanTech said:


> What kind of fixture/lighting is inside the proscenium arch? LED tape?


 *@BillConnerFASTC* A few years ago (perhaps ten by now), the city / town of Bramalea chose to build a new PAC IMMEDIATELY adjacent to a busy railway track in steady use by both of our national railroads. Dual redundant, electrically operated roll up doors were installed per their architects specs and similar to what you're describing. The result wasn't flawless but was easily going to be workable as long as they cleared trucks and trailers out and closed both doors. 
Come to think of it, they may have had four doors; two docks next to each other with two doors per dock.
Thanks for you replies. 
Toodleoo! 
Ron Hebbard


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## BillConnerFASTC (Aug 26, 2019)

IanTech said:


> What kind of fixture/lighting is inside the proscenium arch? LED tape?


It's a lighting fixture about 3' long, one plugs to next, aluminum channel hinged on a mounting, lens, and looks like LED tape inside. Do yes. In a manner.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Aug 29, 2019)

Here is stage plan showing niches and passageways.


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## josh88 (Aug 31, 2019)

I wish we had storage like that for our shell. We just finished installing it and were already tight for space, its going to be an interesting year. I also wish we had better work lighting installed from the get go. It seems like work lights and general area lighting is always my biggest complaint about spaces.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Nov 4, 2019)

Opening!! Here's their web site for this PAC and a few pictures completed. https://www.mcfarland.k12.wi.us/community/PAC.cfm


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## DrewE (Nov 4, 2019)

Looks very nice indeed! The school can be justifiably proud of their new facility. I hope the student sound techs in particular realize how unusually nice their control location is.


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## Nate Mendl (Nov 15, 2019)

Yesterday was the opening night for the first production in the new theater, the annual high school musical. The theater is a beautiful space with an exceptional stage. I am the previous theater manager (a 0.1 FTE position) and I left this district when they indicated to me that they didn't have any plans to staff the theater, beyond having the full time the choir teacher also manage the space. I had seen many unsafe situations in the previous auditorium and was uncomfortable running a theater of this caliber allowing students working at height, in the dark, with electricity and linesets, and without adult supervision. To this date this is still a 0.1 position. Over the course of the week I've watched both students and staff using linesets in the brand new theater in an unsafe manner. It's disheartening to me because it's a gorgeous space that has no long term plan.

While the design of the theater is exceptional (many congrats to Bill Conner for designing such a beautiful space), it is my conclusion that the sound system is unfortunately inadequate. Over the past 8 days, the speaker processor has failed three times. The center cluster is essentially unusable due to poor quality components. The design is a Renkus Heinz system that is incapable of consistent coverage throughout the room, and after significant EQ the L/C/R cannot produce accurate sound reproduction. The A/V contractor never measured the acoustics of the room before installation of the PA, and the L/R speakers are hung adjacent to brick walls coloring most of the coverage of the room. As a local sound engineer, it is one of the most frustrating places I've mixed in several years, which is a shame because acoustically the room is excellent. There is no independent control of front fills / underbalcony / balcony speakers, and these speakers were configured without delay. While there are technically four monitor mixes, if you want a foldback monitor on either side of the proscenium each one of these is required to use a mix, which for this purpose essentially gives you only two monitor mixes. (There is no patchbay for foldback mons.) 

When inquiring about the poor quality amplified sound, the response to me was along the effect that the "the room is designed to be so good acoustically, that therefore the sound system is only there to help support the natural room acoustic, not to amplify music." 

I am hopeful that the district chooses to correct the errors of the sound system, reverses course, and instead installs a system that is on par with the rest of the beautiful theater.


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## CakerSloth (Nov 18, 2019)

Bump


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## CakerSloth (Nov 18, 2019)

Sorry Ron, I wanted to move the thread ahead in a positive light - on a fresh page.


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## CakerSloth (Nov 18, 2019)

Drew E - I think the students are really appreciative and eager to learn in a respectful way. It's pretty special.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Nov 18, 2019)

Well, I've seen Momma Mia twice, including half an act from behind percussion on the pit, and an orchestra concert tonight. 

I don't think any one system - sound, lights, and more - can be everyone's ideal system. On this case, the design is based on all vocals being played on the enter cluster, and not the left and right. Im sorry the system was apparently not tuned so the fills delays - balcony, under balcony, and side galleries - was apparently not working. It's there. I don't have a clue what the processor does but after it was rebooted, it apparently worked fine. Software upgrades and changes maybe. I don't really know sound but they will start from scratch with system designer - he went to intensive care on the day he was to go to check out - and test it then. 

My personal non-expert opinion of the sound was it was good from all parts of the auditorium, even if a little loud, and the loudness from a nearside (left or right) speaker a little unatural - singer stage right and sound from stage left.

The orchestra - no sound system of course - was very good. Rich base reverberation, clarity, and a good tail. Quite lovely. We also listened to unamplified solo voice and it carried easily. I wish they tried a rehearsal with none of the 39 wireless mics. It would have been very pleasant and rich.

Staffing is tough but in this case, I talked to school board members and the superintendent fro earliest meetings about the need for a full time auditorium manager and am assured they are working towards that. As many here have proven, they will pay for themselves in more rentals and better equipment care.


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## RonHebbard (Nov 19, 2019)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> Well, I've seen Momma Mia twice, including half an act from behind percussion on the pit, and an orchestra concert tonight.
> 
> I don't think any one system - sound, lights, and more - can be everyone's ideal system. On this case, the design is based on all vocals being played on the enter cluster, and not the left and right. Im sorry the system was apparently not tuned so the fills delays - balcony, under balcony, and side galleries - was apparently not working. It's there. I don't have a clue what the processor does but after it was rebooted, it apparently worked fine. Software upgrades and changes maybe. I don't really know sound but they will start from scratch with system designer - he went to intensive care on the day he was to go to check out - and test it then.
> 
> ...


You were "behind percussion in the pit" Playing or observing*?* 
Also; please clarify: "Rich base reverberation, clarity". Basically rich or rich in Bass frequencies yet clear sans excessive loss of definition*?* 
Toodleoo! 
Ron Hebbard


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## BillConnerFASTC (Nov 19, 2019)

I stood behind percussionists -3 - in pit. How else do I know what was right and more importantly what could be improved upon?

Rich in base as the room perimeter is hard and has mass - concrete walls and roof - and the reverberation at all frequencies was clear, not what is often described as muddy.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Nov 19, 2019)

Here's view from my pit seat. If I can figure out how to downsize video I'll post that. 3 percussion, 3 guitars, 4 keyboards, and chorus up to 10 or 12. 



And rigging pit as quick change.


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## brvheart (Nov 21, 2019)

Bill, it looks gorgeous. As I'm an educator in Wisconsin, I will definitely try to make it for a performance in the near future. Well done.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Nov 21, 2019)

I was thinking about a conference or workshop for hs auditorium managers, maybe in the spring. Maybe a chunk of Saturday followed by a show. Tour. Questions and answers. Talk about planning process and how to get non-theatre types to understand the fundamentals. Could do an hour on stage floors. Orchestra pits also. The process of design and construction which is as strange to many theatre people as theatres are to architects and engineers. I was a little dismayed by the state of hs theatre design in WIsconsin.


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## macsound (Nov 21, 2019)

I didn't notice two things previously that are interesting.
The two sets of single seats in the box position. Was this more of a design element, trying to maximize space, not have terrible box viewing angles?
The lower box lighting position. There's like 4 Source Fours maybe? Very interesting lighting angle. What's the designed purpose?

I know from the context my questions seem condescending, not at all however. Just interested in the mind of a genius.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Nov 21, 2019)

The side galleries - 4 levels - are for intimacy. If not there, further away. Plus the wrapping around or "peopling the walls" I think improves the intimacy and social nature. I like the sightlines. My favorite seats - and the superintendent's. Yes, the near upstage corners are cut off but they are in many wide theatres. It resulted from are pre-design tours and Knoxville IL hs (also one of mine) https://images.app.goo.gl/eKricVWae3Ug9Ddw6 The committee liked the performer experience of audience surrounding. 

The lighting rails under each gallery simply try to make up for lack of box boom. A nice low slicing angle.


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## Kristi R-C (Nov 30, 2019)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> I was thinking about a conference or workshop for hs auditorium managers, maybe in the spring. Maybe a chunk of Saturday followed by a show. Tour. Questions and answers. Talk about planning process and how to get non-theatre types to understand the fundamentals. Could do an hour on stage floors. Orchestra pits also. The process of design and construction which is as strange to many theatre people as theatres are to architects and engineers. I was a little dismayed by the state of hs theatre design in WIsconsin.



How about doing it as part of the Alliance for Wisconsin Theatre Education conference in September? Many of them will be there anyway.


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## Kristi R-C (Dec 1, 2019)

brvheart said:


> Bill, it looks gorgeous. As I'm an educator in Wisconsin, I will definitely try to make it for a performance in the near future. Well done.


Where are you at? I'm in Appleton.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Dec 1, 2019)

Where does Alliance meet usually?


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## Kristi R-C (Dec 1, 2019)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> Where does Alliance meet usually?


Changes cities each year... in 2020 (Sept 18th) we're at Wisconsin Lutheran in Milwaukee - just up the road from you, which is why I suggested it. https://www.awte.net


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## MNicolai (Dec 2, 2019)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> I was a little dismayed by the state of hs theatre design in WIsconsin.



Most K12 theater projects in Wisconsin have no proper theater consultant. Typically the same vendor lays out the systems. There is little competition in the region and the vendor knows they have a good chance at getting the install so it's no skin off their back to lay something out for not a lot of design fee. Most of the people I know in that area have been burned by that vendor in one way or another, but they keep getting designs because there's little competition, and it's more money in the architect's pocket if they don't have to bring a dedicated consultant on-board and pay for them out of their A/E fee.

The consequence is a lot of projects that have systems designs but without any of the organizational or architectural theater planning a proper consultant would offer to deliver a project that will be successful in the long-term.

It's a shame, really. SE Wisconsin is hot with high schools building theaters by looking over their shoulders at what their neighbors have. It's like a nuclear arms race for each HS to have a better theater than the high school 25min away, but you mostly end up with a bunch of cookie cutter projects where the latest iteration of an architect's design of a "typical HS theater" doesn't even improve upon the obvious issues with the previous 2 schools they built with that design.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Dec 2, 2019)

Well, not from me. I'm in Clayton NY since spring. 

What do you think it should include? I thought a long session could be the case study of this project (McFarland PAC) but based on questions here and what I see and hear, a session on stage flooring would be well attended.

My interest was a statement here (CB) several years ago from an auditorium manager (Sun Prairie?) About how do they know what's best? Architects don't know what happens backstage (or else so many would not stop wood floor at end of battens and leave a noisy trip hazard transition to concrete.)


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## Kristi R-C (Dec 15, 2019)

The AV company I'm working for now is making bank fixing the cookie-cutter lowest bidder installs. Pity, do it right the first time and save everyone a lot of hassle.


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## Joshua Schoeneck (Dec 31, 2019)

MNicolai said:


> Most K12 theater projects in Wisconsin have no proper theater consultant. Typically the same vendor lays out the systems. There is little competition in the region and the vendor knows they have a good chance at getting the install so it's no skin off their back to lay something out for not a lot of design fee. Most of the people I know in that area have been burned by that vendor in one way or another, but they keep getting designs because there's little competition, and it's more money in the architect's pocket if they don't have to bring a dedicated consultant on-board and pay for them out of their A/E fee.
> 
> The consequence is a lot of projects that have systems designs but without any of the organizational or architectural theater planning a proper consultant would offer to deliver a project that will be successful in the long-term.
> 
> It's a shame, really. SE Wisconsin is hot with high schools building theaters by looking over their shoulders at what their neighbors have. It's like a nuclear arms race for each HS to have a better theater than the high school 25min away, but you mostly end up with a bunch of cookie cutter projects where the latest iteration of an architect's design of a "typical HS theater" doesn't even improve upon the obvious issues with the previous 2 schools they built with that design.



I'm the TD (among other things) for one of these high schools in SE Wisconsin and was terribly disappointed by the vendor/consultant, which I assume is the same one you are referring to. I felt we weren't really listened to or consulted and were just offered their standard package. I'm very glad that we visited another theater constructed by our architect and the same vendor. Their TD was very informative in pointing out issues that they ran into and this helped us avoid some of the same problems.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Dec 31, 2019)

Vendors want to do what they done, or always done. New and never done it before are risky.


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## MNicolai (Dec 31, 2019)

@Joshua Schoeneck
Yes, you guys got a cookie cutter theater. That theater was a variation of what Oconomowoc HS got, and Sussex Hamilton before it. If you spoke with Michael Duncan at Oconomowoc, I'm sure he was very informative and candid about the shortcomings of that theater. Nonetheless, a highly functional type of space but the concept has obvious and easy ways it could be improved -- the theater consultant/vendor just isn't engaged enough to do anything about it and the architect doesn't know better.

First year we were open at Ocon we had to have an independent rigger come in and prepare a report of all the ways the rigging installation was deficient. Only way I could find out where the all the circuits in the house/lobby/BOH lighting went to was to run around the building with a two-way radio and have someone at a console run a channel check -- vendor didn't share any circuit plots, plans, or lists with us that were accurate. Same went for a section and plan of the rigging plot. Their records showed sets in entirely different locations than what their rigger ended up installing -- and what their rigger ended up installing banged into other items in the fly loft and rendered one or two sets useless until they were re-rigged several years later.

Not sure if you got it too, but Oconomowoc got a fire curtain and a deluge system. The fire curtain didn't have smoke pockets so it was never installed in compliance with life safety codes -- though because of the deluge system it was never necessary in the first place. Interestingly enough, they recently had to tear out the fire curtain because of all the soft goods in the room, it was the only fabric that would no longer pass flame tests.

Probably one of the most irritating issues was "the poke", the 25' x 60' swath of apron downstage of the plaster line. A huge amount of acting space that could only be lit by the mid-house catwalk or by a couple torm positions. The torms were inaccessible because they were over sloped flooring and to hang/focus you had to be on an extension ladder backwards and left-handed in positions with no places to tie-off a harness to.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Jan 1, 2020)

I've never '"copied" a design. Always start with blank sheet and try to not repeat any weaknesses or faults I've ever committed or seen.


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## RickR (Jan 2, 2020)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> I've never '"copied" a design. Always start with blank sheet and try to not repeat any weaknesses or faults I've ever committed or seen.



At the same time, humanity has been doing theater in the same basic form since at least the ancient Greeks. Hundreds of school theaters are built every year with the same basic goals. Sure the decoration and alignment 'need' to be different, but the Audience to Performer relationship is the same. The choice seems to be the devil you know vs the surprise behind door #54774357.

I say the same thing about houses, but we've been doing them for far longer. Yet everyone wants one that's different and the contractors rarely come in on time or within budget.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Jan 2, 2020)

RickR said:


> At the same time, humanity has been doing theater in the same basic form since at least the ancient Greeks.


True but I'm pretty sure for the same number of seats I have reduced the distance from farthest seat and average distance to the stage on almost each project, despite people getting larger and codes - accessibility - pushing the other direction. 

Not to mention technology changing daily. There are electrical engineers out there using the same theatre lighting system design they used 20 years ago. I won't start on mechanical engineers and noisy systems.

Looking at a lot of HS theatres, I think many need to start over rather than using the last design.


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## TimMc (Jan 2, 2020)

Copying? The form factor of a "theater" combined with comfort and aesthetics desired by They Who Cut the Cheque® tend to set the major architectural and practical limits of design, and the details contain so many devils ... but things tend to look and feel similar because of the form factor. Think: hotel banquet facilities; if you've been back of house in 2 or 3, you know how almost every one of them is laid out.

In a world where contractors can't build to the prints, where the architect's detailers have never done a theater, to the client who juggles the construction budget toward things that make visual impressions over functionality when costs over-run... it's a bloody miracle we can even build a decent performance space.


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## macsound (Jan 2, 2020)

Not to fall down this rabbit hole again but how do architects and contractors end up designing and building something they've never done before without asking for some input. Seems like at-the-least an ultimate letdown, uncomfortable conversations and a bad rep for all parties involved.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Jan 2, 2020)

chutzpah


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## MNicolai (Jan 2, 2020)

In fairness to architects, a lot of schools want to use a general design concept that's been successful somewhere else. Often looking for a "site adaptation" of a previously successful design with some modifications instead of a brand new design from scratch. In my region, most school districts are county wide and with exception to the magnet schools, most public schools are site adaptations. The districts that want a brand new design generally need a budget climbing up closer to $20M than $10M because they have a longer wish list they're trying to fulfill.


macsound said:


> Not to fall down this rabbit hole again but how do architects and contractors end up designing and building something they've never done before without asking for some input. Seems like at-the-least an ultimate letdown, uncomfortable conversations and a bad rep for all parties involved.



Usually it's not their first, but often it isn't more than their 5th. Individual theater projects are cutthroat and the A/E selection often emphasizes prior demonstrated theater experience. Hard to win a project that's just a theater without having a long resume of prior experience. A/E's without a lot of experience usually cut their teeth on new campus-wide construction projects where the A/E qualifications interviews focus more on overall campus design and the theater is just one element in a much much larger project. So if your theater gets built with the rest of the campus, there's a better shot you'll have an architect who's not regularly engaged in theater design.

Behind the scenes, you may also have a firm where the firm doesn't have their name on many theater projects but individuals on the architect's team do from a previous firm they worked for -- or vise versa, the firm has a lot of theater experience but with an architect who recently left their team for greener grass. In this economy, there's a lot of that going around because it's an aggressive market for talent. If you ever sit on an A/E selection team, keep that in the back of your head when you're reviewing credentials, and ask probing questions.


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## Kristi R-C (Jan 3, 2020)

My dear fellow Wisconsintes... I feel your pain. SO tired of seeing the same list of fixtures and no contact with the end users before decisions are made. Things that make no sense, or are completely wrong for theatre at any level, much less at a HS. 

SO - PM me and lets put together a standard for what we want WI theaters to have as a BASE knowing that each school has unique needs beyond that.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Jan 3, 2020)

MNicolai said:


> a general design concept that's been successful somewhere else


It's the "successful" judgment that concerns me. And the decision-makers, school admin, design principals, school board, rarely possess the knowledge and experience to know, most often don't know it.


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## AlexDonkle (Jan 4, 2020)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> It's the "successful" judgment that concerns me. And the decision-makers, school admin, design principals, school board, rarely possess the knowledge and experience to know, most often don't know it.



I'd agree, and getting the right information on exactly what the problems are and how they could've been prevented is very difficult to actually get to the bottom of. 
On my non-theatre projects, I've learned to admire how dedicated Hotel and Mall operators are at evaluating operations for all their existing properties and rolling those updates into their new ones. They act as the voice of experience for A/E teams so that the buildings will functional, but for performing arts projects without a theatre consultant it's not too surprising some projects turn out poorly.


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## The_Dingman (Feb 5, 2020)

Sorry to bring back an old thread, but I was discussing this facility with area colleagues today.

What I don't understand, is why no one really talks to other venues in the area that have things that work. We have some very well equipped high school facilities in the area, and two genius-level audio guys at Overture Center, both whom have experience with designing audio systems - yet the last two theaters to be built in our area have drastically inadequate sound systems.

It's as though everyone is assuming that these spaces will be nothing more than a newer version of the traditional high school theater, while we have a few schools in the area with truly top-level PA systems, installed by experienced companies that specialize in concert-class audio - not churches and gyms.


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## RonHebbard (Feb 5, 2020)

The_Dingman said:


> Sorry to bring back an old thread, but I was discussing this facility with area colleagues today.
> 
> What I don't understand, is why no one really talks to other venues in the area that have things that work. We have some very well equipped high school facilities in the area, and two genius-level audio guys at Overture Center, both whom have experience with designing audio systems - yet the last two theaters to be built in our area have drastically inadequate sound systems.
> 
> It's as though everyone is assuming that these spaces will be nothing more than a newer version of the traditional high school theater, while we have a few schools in the area with truly top-level PA systems, installed by experienced companies that specialize in concert-class audio - not churches and gyms.


 *@The_Dingman* Another popular, but similarly unfathomable, occurrence is: 
How many times have you seen the various "committees" tasked with garnering advice from others in their areas making a bee line to the newest, snazziest, most up to date venue in their town and asking their manager / owner / FOH manager how they like their new venue*? * 

*Think for ten minutes: * Do they really think any of the people associated with their bright and shiny new 'toy', the one still being extolled by the mayor within the first 7 pages of their town's news paper, are going to proclaim anything other than lavish words of praise?? 

Ask theatres which have been in operation for 5 to 10 (or more) years what's wrong / ill conceived / poorly executed / problematic / built with little forethought, if you want to glean the truly worthwhile perspective. 

One more thing commonly seen is / are "committees" comprised of a town's "higher society" folks, folks who've spent decades in the finest theatres in your area but never ventured any further than the lobbies, bars, front rows or box seats; the folks who attend theatres to be seen rather than see. 

Docks, docks*?* We're not building a yacht club, why would we want docks?? 
Truck docks, huh? Why would we need a truck dock? Dock level? That looks far too dangerous, a person could fall off the edge and get hurt. 

Trucks are really that high?? Are you serious??? You're kidding us, right???? 

TWO!!????? WHY WOULD WE EVER WANT TWO?????? 
Oh, you mean the beer and liquor trucks park way back here, uh . . . Surely the bars are in the lobby. 

Garbage, garbage trucks; don't you just put a couple of cans out by the curb with the theatre's address on them??????
*@The_Dingman* C'mon, fess up, admit it; you've seen this before. 
Posting in full support. 
Toodleoo! 
Ron Hebbard


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## The_Dingman (Feb 6, 2020)

RonHebbard said:


> *@The_Dingman* Another popular, but similarly unfathomable, occurrence is:
> How many times have you seen the various "committees" tasked with garnering advice from others in their areas making a bee line to the newest, snazziest, most up to date venue in their town and asking their manager / owner / FOH manager how they like their new venue*?
> 
> Think for ten minutes: * Do they really think any of the people associated with their bright and shiny new 'toy', the one still being extolled by the mayor within the first 7 pages of their town's news paper, are going to proclaim anything other than lavish words of praise??
> ...



That's exactly my point. We have schools around that have very nice spaces that are used for a variety of functions. I manage one only about 45 minutes from McFarland that is 20 years old this year - and I have very few complaints about the design, but I do have many opinions on what should absolutely be copied - and have been willing to share them - including with the McFarland superintendent when he visited our theater. We operate about 50/50 school vs community use, and the only school theater in the area that makes more than we do on rentals is Middleton. But no one thinks to get perspective from these spaces. No one thinks to ask real professionals in theatre what is important. As Nate pointed out above, McFarland squandered the fact that they had an expert on audio already in charge of their old space.

What bothers me more than anything is that nearby districts learn *nothing* from these experiences.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Feb 6, 2020)

The_Dingman said:


> No one thinks to ask real professionals in theatre what is important.



I think I'll take exception to that. 

All I noticed in touring schools around Wisconsin was how blanking noisy they were - no attention to background mechanical noise or isolation from adjacent spaces and little to natural acoustics. (Which by the way are phenomenal at McFarland. The orchestra sounded wonderful!)

I can't explain why no one asks your opinion.


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## The_Dingman (Feb 6, 2020)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> I think I'll take exception to that.
> 
> All I noticed in touring schools around Wisconsin was how blanking noisy they were - no attention to background mechanical noise or isolation from adjacent spaces and little to natural acoustics. (Which by the way are phenomenal at McFarland. The orchestra sounded wonderful!)
> 
> I can't explain why no one asks your opinion.



You clearly didn't come here. I can't speak for other spaces.

I can say that when I'm mixing, the last thing I want are room acoustics to fight. When we first built our space, the "natural acoustics" were a nice selling point. Especially now that we've upgraded our PA, those "natural acoustics" are our biggest challenge. Room acoustics are great for an orchestra or symphony, but that's such a small piece of how these spaces are actually used, that it creates a lot of difficulty when you can't make the room quiet enough to balance an orchestra with a production. I'd give anything to make our theater more "dead" acoustically - and will probably spend considerably in the next few years to try to get there. It's entirely the reason why we get complaints about volume when we're doing everything we can to make it quieter.

You can look at a space like Overture Hall in Madison that can have world-class natural acoustics for the symphony, but they have dozens of hidden curtains and moving panels to make the room as dead as possible during any other production. Those acoustic deadening features are in place for 90+% of the events that happen in there.

How many solo orchestras are there going to be in McFarland, and how many lectures, productions, dance events, and live music concerts will there be? If orchestral concerts aren't over 50% of the total use of the space, the priority is in the wrong place. That's the one main complaint I have about our theater, what they planned it to be used for is entirely different than what it is actually used for - and almost all those complaints are due to the acoustics and original PA.

With that said, McFarland has one of the most attractive PACs in the area. I absolutely applaud the fact that it's a beautiful design.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Feb 6, 2020)

We toured other spaces and the building committee - admin, school board, faculty, staff.
Western Dubuque High School, 302 5th Ave. SW, Epworth IA​Bettendorf High School, 3333 18th St., Bettendorf IA​Central High School, 1120 Main Street, Davenport, Iowa​Brunner Theatre Center, Augustana College, 3750 7th Ave., Rock Island, IL​Knoxville HS, 809 E Main St, Knoxville, IL​Geneseo HS PAC 700 N State St, Geneseo, IL​All understood the differences between a natural acoustics hall and a sound system hall and chose to have great natural acoustics. Their interest was supporting the school's music program first. You obviously disagree.

In the Madison area, we toured Waunakee and Sun Prairie, and found them noisy and not intimate and not supportive of music.

It does seem because the halls in Wisconsin are generally very noisy - both mechanical noise and outside noise - ever higher sound pressure levels are necessary. Too bad.


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## The_Dingman (Feb 6, 2020)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> Their interest was supporting the school's music program first. You obviously disagree.



I think that support is misplaced. The band and choir will certainly sound great, but the musical is going to suffer for it, as will anyone singing a solo into a microphone - not to mention the lectures, drama performances, and other events that aren't completely acoustic.


BillConnerFASTC said:


> It does seem because the halls in Wisconsin are generally very noisy - both mechanical noise and outside noise - ever higher sound pressure levels are necessary. Too bad.



I simply don't think you toured the right spaces. As far as mechanical noise causing higher SPL, I think that's a non-issue. A few db bit of noise floor doesn't make as much difference as having to overcome a live room. 99% of the issues we have with high SPL in the room is due to having to fight with stage volume or acoustic instruments that are too loud in the house. If I'm trying to balance a pit orchestra with performers with microphones, I have to make the microphones louder than the orchestra - something much harder to do if the room is too resonant and causing those instruments to be too loud.

One of the biggest PA's I've seen was the one that came in on the Hamilton tour to Overture Hall. It was also the lowest db performance I've ever heard - and they had every room dampening technology in place.

Personally, I think a "natural acoustics hall" is an outdated thing to build for a space that isn't specifically for music recitals. I guarantee that with a competent audio engineer, the total SPL in McFarland will be higher than it will be in say Oregon - which is not as nice a room, but has a proper PA.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Feb 6, 2020)

Well, we disagree. When you're elected or hired to make the decisions for the theatre design of a new theatre, you can do it your way.


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## The_Dingman (Feb 6, 2020)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> Well, we disagree. When you're elected or hired to make the decisions for the theatre design of a new theatre, you can do it your way.



I'm actually doing that now, and I will.


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## MNicolai (Feb 6, 2020)

The crux of all of this is that multipurpose space is adequate for most things but excels at none of them. Let's not kid ourselves though into thinking that happy mediums cannot exist. You can prioritize music and still have decent speech, or prioritize speech and still have decent music. It's not a zero sum game.

If you find yourself fighting the pit, part of that is the responsibility of the pit orchestra is to play at an appropriate level. If they have a hard time doing it, then that's something that needs to be worked out. If the problem is that they cannot hear themselves or each other, they may naturally tend to play louder to compensate which is something effective monitoring or a bunch of headphones on an Aviom-style system can alleviate.

The benefit of a room with a low background noise is that you can have a high degree of speech intelligibility without having to mic every single performer and chorus member -- and with many high school sound systems poorly tuned or not tuned at all, mic'ing every performer and turning it up loud becomes mutually assured destruction. The tendency toward noisy mechanical systems or insufficient building envelopes with lots of rainfall/exterior noise is partly why 24 wireless mic's has become the _bare minimum_ for high schools. And most people mixing at a high school level can hardly handle more than 12 mic's well -- certainly not the 24 or 36 that is becoming common. The overall experience and art form suffers.

What you're talking about gets almost into the realm of proper electronic acoustic enhancement systems which generally (but not always) require the room to be acoustically dead because the enhancement system does all the heavy lifting. Whether it's LARES, Transcend, Constellation, SoundScape -- replicating a satisfactory listening experience takes easily 3-4x as much PA in a room that's been turned into a padded cell. For it to be any good, it has to be tuned by one of a handful of people capable of effectively tuning those systems. The processors to make that work are not cheap and are not off the shelf. If you're doing that in lieu of proper acoustic strategies, the average 700-800 seat theater is going to spend an extra $300k+ on PA because of a somewhat lazy approach to designing the architecture and building systems -- AND -- the ultimate goal of those system is to provide an immersive environment where the sound has a lot of strength from the direction of the stage but with enough detail and spatial width that it sounds as if the performance is happening within arm's reach. All of that gets compromised if you have loud return rattling or the sound of rainfall on the roof halves your dynamic range by raising your noise floor 15-20dB.

I also cannot put a fine enough point on that many people blame a longer decay time on a what it actually a sound system flaw. On average, 3 of every 4 projects I tune the contractor is in awe of the process of setting gain structures, time-aligning speakers, doing transfer functions, and such. I know some people who are very gravely concerned about giving away trade secrets on how to tune a sound system but the reality is many installers have a "good enough" threshold that's just a step or two better than you'd expect from a 70V paging system. They don't care for beans about what your system sounds like once they walk away. Also a lot of installers understand enough of the principles to be dangerous but forget to open their ears and listen to what they're actually doing. Always love when those guys show me how flat an RTA response they achieved as if that has any correlation with overall sound quality.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Feb 6, 2020)

I find a real orchestra pit that that is below the stage and partially recessed does wonders for balance.


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## MNicolai (Feb 6, 2020)

Indeed. I miss living in a part of the world where we could excavate real pits. Most of my projects are within a few feet of the water table. It _can_ be done, but most schools would rather spend their money elsewhere.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Feb 6, 2020)

Faced with water table in Mississippi, we proposed a virtual pit, locating orchestra in music room with a/v links. Well see this coming year how it works but at least balance solved.


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## MNicolai (Feb 6, 2020)

I did a project like that at The Prairie School. We used left/right side screens with a camera feed from the orchestra room. Since a lot of parents want to see their kids perform and feel they're still part of the action even if their in another room, they do all/most shows with the orchestra projected onto the side screens.

Artistically, I would prefer if a couple shows of each run were "orchestra nights" and a couple shows they left the side screens off, but that's their choice. Overall they seemed very happy with the setup. I've pitched it to another couple clients in similar predicaments but a lot of people can't get over moving a student orchestra out of the theater and down the hall.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Feb 6, 2020)

Exactly. Kids not in same room (though a lot of HS pit orchestras I've seen are not students or kids at all.)


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## mrtrudeau23 (Feb 6, 2020)

MNicolai said:


> Most K12 theater projects in Wisconsin have no proper theater consultant. Typically the same vendor lays out the systems. There is little competition in the region and the vendor knows they have a good chance at getting the install so it's no skin off their back to lay something out for not a lot of design fee. Most of the people I know in that area have been burned by that vendor in one way or another, but they keep getting designs because there's little competition, and it's more money in the architect's pocket if they don't have to bring a dedicated consultant on-board and pay for them out of their A/E fee.
> 
> The consequence is a lot of projects that have systems designs but without any of the organizational or architectural theater planning a proper consultant would offer to deliver a project that will be successful in the long-term.
> 
> It's a shame, really. SE Wisconsin is hot with high schools building theaters by looking over their shoulders at what their neighbors have. It's like a nuclear arms race for each HS to have a better theater than the high school 25min away, but you mostly end up with a bunch of cookie cutter projects where the latest iteration of an architect's design of a "typical HS theater" doesn't even improve upon the obvious issues with the previous 2 schools they built with that design.


I do a lot of work at one of the cookie cutter theaters in the Appleton, WI area and it’s difficult to work in. They just recently went all ColorSource and an IonXE, but when I started, it was all Altmans on a 72/144 Express with 4 cheap moving lights that I had to write a profile for. And this theater was built in 2000. Why they didn’t go Source 4 when the control system was all ETC, I’ll never know. Add to all that, the 1 and only catwalk is too close to the stage, 4 electrics, 2 lines taken up by the band shell that can’t be moved, and a 3/4 tall fly tower with 25 total line sets. Can’t ever fly the main all the way out, so it has to track if they want to use it. It’s a beautiful house, but functionally it’s a nightmare for a show.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Feb 7, 2020)

Budget and no one on the design team that had sufficient expertise on theatre design. It's about the big picture and setting priorities - quiet room, sufficient structure and power, intimacy and sight lines, adjacencies and proximities all at the top of the list - and too easy for the non-expert to get distracted by equipment and finished. I believe a painted cement block room that you can see and hear well in than a lavishly finished space where you can't better supports the performing arts.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Feb 7, 2020)

MNicolai said:


> a somewhat lazy approach to designing the architecture and building systems



This applies to the sound, video, lighting, and rigging systems as well. It is harder to design a sound system in a room that supports natural acoustics. And if the sound system designer wants to ignore that - as many do - and put in a system that works great in an anechoic room - the room won't work very well. Line arrays may be great for the anechoic rooms and large rooms that are relatively long, but I believe point source speakers serve better in the typical - well designed and supportive to music - high school auditorium.

But for bad room design and shaping and high background noise (and for vendors where profit is a motive) the line array is probably the right choice.


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## RonHebbard (Feb 7, 2020)

MNicolai said:


> The crux of all of this is that multipurpose space is adequate for most things but excels at none of them. Let's not kid ourselves though into thinking that happy mediums cannot exist. You can prioritize music and still have decent speech, or prioritize speech and still have decent music. It's not a zero sum game.
> 
> If you find yourself fighting the pit, part of that is the responsibility of the pit orchestra is to play at an appropriate level. If they have a hard time doing it, then that's something that needs to be worked out. If the problem is that they cannot hear themselves or each other, they may naturally tend to play louder to compensate which is something effective monitoring or a bunch of headphones on an Aviom-style system can alleviate.
> 
> ...


 *@MNicolai * Posting in FULL support. 
Adding reverb to a dry and quiet room extremely simple and affordable. 
Removing noise, reflections and reverberation from a noisy and / or highly reverberant space is a FAR more costly exercise. 
Toodleoo! 
Ron Hebbard


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## TimMc (Feb 7, 2020)

Regarding acoustics and sound reinforcement design, I'm largely in agreement with Bill and Mike and just about everyone else. Everything is a compromise and at some point a design, whether architectural or audio system, becomes master of nothing and everything is done poorly. If everyone is equally unhappy, we're all good, right? 

I'd much rather have controllable, variable acoustics (reflection, absorption, diffusion) designed into a room than making it pillow-fart dead and then spending Really Big $$$ on acoustic simulation. Singing or playing live into a dead space is... well, like death. "How's that violin sound played in a casket, Maestro?" Amplified mush-ic in a live room is bad for the opposite reasons, but the suck-factor is similarly ugly.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Apr 18, 2020)

Some follow up:








WYSO - Wisconsin Youth Symphony Orchestras | Southern Wisconsin

WYSO, established in 1966, has had over 5,000 young musicians from communities throughout southern Wisconsin participate in their programs.



www.wysomusic.org


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## Kristi R-C (Apr 22, 2020)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> Some follow up:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Looks like a great space! I'll have to make a trip down to see it.


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