# ZZTop cancels show for safety reasons



## JohnD (Jun 14, 2012)

ZZTop recently cancelled a show in Alabama citing safety reasons:
ZZ Top Cuts Alabama Show Over Safety Concerns - Yahoo! Music
Here is a bit more information:
Here's What Happened When Roland Castillo Head Rigger for ZZ Top SPOKE UP... | SPLnetwork.com
It looks like the smart thing to do, they listened to their head rigger.


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## Footer (Jun 14, 2012)

I would hate to own a Thomas roof right now. No one wants to play under those things anymore. At least the price of scrap aluminum is high....

Any word on what the actual reason for the cancelation was? Granted, all riders have this clause in them: 



> P. FORCE MAJEURE
> 1. ARTIST'S obligation to perform hereunder shall be excused and neither ARTIST nor PROMOTER shall have any claims for damages
> with respect to the affected performance, if the ARTIST'S performance is rendered impossible or unfeasible as a result of:
> (a) Illness, death, incapacity to perform or injury to any member of ARTIST'S group.
> ...



Looks like the promoter is out their deposit. I would really have like to be a fly on the wall in those meetings/phone calls/emails.


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## derekleffew (Jun 14, 2012)

Footer said:


> ...Any word on what the actual reason for the cancellation was? ...


From a post on The Facebook:

> I want us to all give a big shout out to Roland Castillo of IATSE 134 San Jose who is the Head Rigger on the ZZ Top tour. He was responsible for calling the ZZ Top / 3 Doors Down show at the Wind Creek Hotel and Casino in Atmore, Alabama last week. The show was called due to unsafe Stage and Rigging/Roof conditions. It was a TOTAL FAIL. This could have easily been the next disaster if Roland hadn’t been on top of things and I think we should be grateful for him having the experience and the balls to step and and SPEAK UP. Luckily the TM, PM and crews for both bands trusted his judgment and stood behind him--let's all take a lesson from Roland and SPEAK UP when things are unsafe. That is the ONLY WAY we are going to make things change and also make sure that we all get to go home each night after every gig. NOBODY including crew, artists or audience should ever have to die for a show.



In various productions, I've often observed that, for whatever reason, the Head Rigger becomes the de facto "Safety Monitor," even in areas not concerning rigging. Similarly, I've noticed that, especially in theatre, the Head Carpenter thinks and acts as though he is "in charge" of everything behind the plaster line. Regardless of whether these are in fact true or not, it's good to have ONE person be the final authority, so that anyone who has an issue knows to whom they should speak. See also Emergency Preparedness Plan. Often, there isn't time to contact the appropriate Fire Marshal or other AHJ regarding an issue.


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## gafftapegreenia (Jun 14, 2012)

Um, so what exactly was wrong that caused this "TOTAL FAIL". I'd be nice to actually learn from these occasions.


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## Pie4Weebl (Jun 14, 2012)

Yeah, add me to the list of people who are curious what the total fail was. 

All the same I hope the reasons are legitimate, once people start crying wolf too often is when the industry will run into issues. 

I once worked a festival with a band who said they needed line array XXX, which was only available from one company at the time in the US, a company run by a buddy of the TM. I could see the same thing happening with stages. "Oh we don't think stage X by my friends competitor is safe, only this stage from Y is acceptable.

I guess my thought is, we need more ETCP riggers out there to make these calls, and set standards by which a stage can be deemed unsafe.


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## Footer (Jun 14, 2012)

Pie4Weebl said:


> I guess my thought is, we need more ETCP riggers out there to make these calls, and set standards by which a stage can be deemed unsafe.




Someone tell me if I am wrong, but I don't think the scope of either the ETCP Theatre Rigging or Arena Rigging covers outdoor stages to the degree needed to make these calls. In reality, an actual licensed structural engineer needs to be in to make these calls. In the Indiana collapse, the findings showed that even the engineers at Thomas had their figures wrong. Even if the stage had been installed to exact spec with Thomas, the thing still would have come down. These calls are really beyond the engineering ability of most entertainment riggers.


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## LavaASU (Jun 14, 2012)

Pie4Weebl said:


> All the same I hope the reasons are legitimate, once people start crying wolf too often is when the industry will run into issues.



This. Oh and I'd like to know the reasons as well. Anyone know Castillo?


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## church (Jun 18, 2012)

Footer said:


> Someone tell me if I am wrong, but I don't think the scope of either the ETCP Theatre Rigging or Arena Rigging covers outdoor stages to the degree needed to make these calls. In reality, an actual licensed structural engineer needs to be in to make these calls. In the Indiana collapse, the findings showed that even the engineers at Thomas had their figures wrong. Even if the stage had been installed to exact spec with Thomas, the thing still would have come down. These calls are really beyond the engineering ability of most entertainment riggers.



You make an excellent point. I am a professional engineer but I am not a structural engineer and with all these things the challange is, "you do not know what you do not know". So while I am happy to make a call on a number of technical issues I would not be making a call on a temporary stage. One of the problems we have, and it is not unique to this industry, is people believe they have more knowledge than they actually have. The ETCP qualifications are excellent for what they are intended to do but they are not intended to replace a structural engineer or for that matter an electrical engineer. The challange is knowing when the work crosses from that of a rigger or electrician to that of an engineer.


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## Pie4Weebl (Jun 18, 2012)

So then who should be on site for shows like this? Can you take an engineer and plop them onsite and can they make an informed call by just looking at things?


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## SteveB (Jun 18, 2012)

derekleffew said:


> the Head Carpenter thinks and acts as though he is "in charge" of everything behind the plaster line.



I've seen that on many IATSE crewed calls, so very common here in NYC for the head carp. to be head of crew. With the caveat that typically with an IATSE crewed event there is not typically a Technical Director or Production Manager. Now that of course changes in a hall with permanent staff, Radio City, the Met Opera, etc... where the facility hires a full time production management person or staff, to manage the backstage technical operations.

So then a question for Kyle.

When you have a yellow card event, and you get crew from the local, do you hire a union head carpenter and does that person "run" the crew (including permanent house crew), set call and break times, etc.. ?.


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## mstaylor (Jun 18, 2012)

I know with Mountain they get the riders beforehand and know what is hanging where. Their engineers decide what structure fits the needs of the show, draws blueprints for that specific event. Then they have experienced onsite supervisors that make sure it is assembled correctly. If unusal things happen in the field, they immediately call their engineers to verify the solution. 
The problem comes when a company buys a roof system and either doesn't properly maintain it, doesn't fully understand how rigging loads affect it, or tries to push the load limits to pull off a show. This is where an onsite engineer may be a good thing. The problem is he may not understand the system either.


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## Footer (Jun 18, 2012)

SteveB said:


> When you have a yellow card event, and you get crew from the local, do you hire a union head carpenter and does that person "run" the crew (including permanent house crew), set call and break times, etc.. ?.



We have not gotten a yellow card show since I have been in the venue. However, we do hire out of the hall occasionally. We don't have a union contract so all the guys go on our payroll at our rate. We do not contribute to the fund or anything of that nature. Our local BA will send us guys because he wants them to get work... and we give them work. Its my deck, no matter who is on it. 

Now, across town we do have a venue that does have a contract and we are fairly close to. They have full time heads (PM, TD, Rigger, Audio, Lights, Wardrobe). These guys are not union, they are considered "management". When they have a call, the IA guys work for the heads, not the BA. The only time the heads are from the union is in the arena next door and one other venue that is not used often. I believe these titles are more of just a senior pay rate thing than anything else and no real advance work is done by these guys. We don't really have that strong of a union around here for them to draw real department lines. A few times in the last 15 years my venue has offered the IA to take the head jobs and turn it into an IA house and they have never been able to produce quality guys to take it, so labor has always stayed in house. 

Now, in my venue any rigging done outside the normal confine of a theatrical fly system is signed off on by one of the engineers that works for the complex my building is on. It really does throw guys for a loop when we ask for detailed loading drawings. It kind of amazes me how many guys really don't know what they are putting into the air. Then again, I am amazed how many people give us a hell when we ask for fire certs on the drops they have been touring with for years...

So many venues do just look the other way and trust the road crew to put up a show safely. We have a handful of shows every year that effects/drops/scenery gets cut because it does not meet our code standards. Its a tough call to make and can really piss some people off but sometimes it is what has to be done.


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## mstaylor (Jun 18, 2012)

In the union buildings I have worked, there is a steward that runs the crew. The rig staff, while under the steward, is fairly autonomous. The rest of the staff, carps, elecs, props, sound and others are assigned by the steward. Each dept has a head, some are always the same, others rotate.


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## SteveB (Jun 18, 2012)

mstaylor said:


> In the union buildings I have worked, there is a steward that runs the crew. The rig staff, while under the steward, is fairly autonomous. The rest of the staff, carps, elecs, props, sound and others are assigned by the steward. Each dept has a head, so are always the same, others rotate.



Interesting as often times the steward is not the crew chief, nor sets call times, break times, crew sizes, etc... but is instead merely an elected member of the crew that deals with the contract stipulations, keeps track of the hours worked, and reports back to the local, etc.... That's how it is for the USA829 scenics, in the NYC area, where the crew is on site for multiple weeks. 

Similar to Kyle, I have not seen a yellow card show in a long time. We used to get more back in the 90's and prior to the house coming under IATSE Local One jurisdiction. For those pre-union times, the *visiting* steward (from IATSE Local 4) was also the head carpenter and was pretty much appointed steward by the local BA, as the event was typically a one off. In any event, the head carpenter always set the call times, break times, determined who was assigned to what department, who stayed for running crew, etc and having the head carpenter as crew chief is common in our area (or was). No longer at our house as they laid-off the staff head carpenter 20 years ago and was not replaced when we went Local 1. Now it's a head electric, head sound, and SM, with only the sound and SM as Local 1 (I declined as head electrics). I do recall that in the earliest yellow card events, IATSE Local 4 (having jurisdiction) would send over a head electrician, head carpenter, and head audio, even though (at the time) these people existed as house staff and it was confusing, to say the least. We finally got that squared away to where the house heads would take a vacation day (or day off) for the gig and become a temp. member of the local and collect a check from the local. Made a lot more sense and worked very well. Then we stopped doing yellow card shows. 

Perhaps others who work in the NYC area can chime in as to whether they see head carp's as crew chiefs on calls - Victor ?, Rochem ?.

And to keep it on-topic, without a head carpenter, we sometimes have no-one qualified or experienced to say to a visiting event "No, we are not hanging that as it's not safe !" (or rigged correctly, etc...), as well we never ask for a flame certificate, sometimes allow open flame on a candle, etc.... This is certainly (in my space) a reflection on the management, who when having been told of these issues, makes the call to allow things to proceed, gambling that nothing bad will happen. So Shibens comment over on the Toronto stage collapse thread I though was dead on, in that management often times WILL take the money and safety be ****ed.


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## jstroming (Jun 18, 2012)

MSG Entertainment has a head production manager who is considered management (no union card) at each venue they run. At least this is the case at Radio City & The Beacon, where I have done shows the past few years. I do an awards show at Beacon every year, but haven't been to Radio City recently because of Cirque. Radio City has a whole host of people, I've sat in on producer/production/house meetings there with no less than 12 people who all seem like they need to know what's going on HAHA. One of the PM's I know doesn't even step foot on the deck when the IA is there. The "Crew Chief" as I would call him at The Beacon was introduced to me as the head rigger. He is the person my point-guy goes to during load-in & out.

It is very interesting to see the differences in how these 2 venues are run considering they are the same local, company, sales team, etc.


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## JohnD (Jun 22, 2012)

Here is some info from Jeff Chase, crew for 3 Doors Down:
Jeff Chase-3 Doors Down Crew responds to attack on ZZ Top /3 Doors Down show cancellation | SPLnetwork.com


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## ruinexplorer (Jun 23, 2012)

So glad that they cancelled! That is no easy decision.


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## len (Jun 24, 2012)

Apparently, on some other show ZZ Top wasn't as lucky. I haven't been able to find a link to any articles yet, but apparently some upstage set piece type thing collapsed at another outdoor show. The EARLY reports (i.e., uninformed responses on Facebook) are trying to place the blame on local crew failures, but who knows what happened. I also can't find anything on any injuries, etc.


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## techieman33 (Jun 24, 2012)

len said:


> Apparently, on some other show ZZ Top wasn't as lucky. I haven't been able to find a link to any articles yet, but apparently some upstage set piece type thing collapsed at another outdoor show. The EARLY reports (i.e., uninformed responses on Facebook) are trying to place the blame on local crew failures, but who knows what happened. I also can't find anything on any injuries, etc.



This is the 2nd place I've heard something about this. Last night my roommate (working at a large festival this week) was asking me to look online for info about after being shown a picture of a video wall, the guy who had the picture didn't know any details though other than that it had happened recently at a zz top show in texas.


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## Philydawg (Jun 24, 2012)

I operated a roof for over 10 years and everything was done on the side of safety. With that being said nobody should make a judgement without gathering all the facts about a situation like this. What were the specific safety problems? What type of system is being used? Who set it up? Who, if anyone, inspected it and were they qualified to do so? To learn from these problems we need people to answer these questions and not speculate. Theres alot of egos in this industry and people who think they know it all but a wise man asks questions first. If anyone can answer any of these questions without any speculation please do.


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## FMEng (Jun 24, 2012)

Just my outside opinion here. I work with tall radio towers where many of the issues are the same. As a broadcast engineer, I am often the go between to both the riggers who build them and the structural engineers who design them. We have good riggers working on them, but they don't know as much as structural engineers (but they think they do). We have structural engineers who are absent some of the knowledge of the riggers about how things actually happen in the field (but they think they do). But, the difference is that they have a standards organization that is working together. The standards include factors like potential wind, ice, and the combination of the two. And their standards usually get adopted by state and local governments into the building code. As a result, towers are much safer now than they were a few short years ago.

As far as I know, there are few and incomplete standards for these stages. The manufacturers are designing them to work in ideal conditions, but the real world has high winds, absent or poorly placed anchor points, uneven ground, heavier speaker arrays, etc. The riggers are capable, but they don't have the knowledge they need for such complex systems. The structural engineers are well trained, but they need more real world experience with this very specialized type of structure. Riggers and engineers don't have as much background in meteorology and aerodynamics as needed to factor in those variables. To put it bluntly, the whole industry is working in a vacuum.

What it'll take is more Harry Donovan types. People who are both riggers and engineers, to "write the book" on these large, temporary structures, just as Harry did for hanging in arenas. The industry will have to create a standards organization just like the tower industry did. It will set standards for the manufacturers to build to, and rules for riggers to follow, and the standards will have to be adopted and enforced by local jurisdictions. Training to the standards will educate. The standards will continually evolve as knowledge improves and technology changes. Until this happens, more deaths will occur.

I hope I am wrong and that the industry is already proactively doing these things, but the accidents suggest otherwise.


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## Philydawg (Jun 24, 2012)

Most of what you said is right on. There needs to be better standards. Right now you have building inspectors and city engineers evaluating structures they know little about. They want blue prints that mean nothing to keep people safer. I read some of the Indiana report and it concluded that these guide wire primary systems are poorly engineered. They had 10 concrete ballasts and would have needed 96 to keep the structure upright. I know some very smart riggers and some dumb engineers. Theres not an easy answer in the industry because of cost cutting to keep ticket prices as low as possible to keep shows viable. What nobody wants is politicians making the rule or most can kiss their jobs goodbye. No easy answers.


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## Footer (Jun 24, 2012)

Philydawg said:


> What nobody wants is politicians making the rule or most can kiss their jobs goodbye. No easy answers.



And I don't want to have a roof fall on me while banging on the kick pedal during line check...

Promoters won't listen to internal regulation. This industry is full of people who will undercut anyone to get a contract on a show. It is also full of people who won't say no because they want to get hired back next time. Regulation is going to be the answer. If that means that ticket prices go up a buck or two, bands take less home, or promoters take less home then so be it.


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## avkid (Jun 24, 2012)

Footer said:


> Promoters won't listen to internal regulation. This industry is full of people who will undercut anyone to get a contract on a show.


 I disagree here, the largest promoter in the country already has their own set of standards in place that are far more strict than some proposed legislation.
When the industry giants act, the rest will follow.


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## FatherMurphy (Jun 28, 2012)

Under US labor law, one worker is to be selected as steward (either by appointment by a Local Union officer, or by election from within the bargaining unit employees), and is responsible for ensuring that the contract's provisions are fairly and evenly enforced. Since the steward must be present during all working hours to do so, they are granted 'super seniority', putting them ahead of all other staffing considerations and making them the de facto 'first in, last out' person on a call. Due to this, and also because crew heads tend to have been around long enough to be familiar with the ins and outs of the contract, a crew head and a steward will often be the same person, but nothing in the law requires this to be the case. (takes off 'former Local Secretary' hat)

Working for a company that will be supplying a roof for a Cheap Trick concert later this summer, I've been tasked this spring with bringing our practices and recordkeeping up the levels that the band is now requiring in their rider. As part of this, I've been working with one of our local structural engineers on verifying what our roof should and should not be expected to do, and we've been learning from the process. Some of what we'd been doing all along, as we were shown by the manufacturers when the first roof was purchased, really isn't quite enough for all possible (and probable) situations. Also, the one ESTA/ANSI standard that does exist appears to have a couple of major flaws when attempting to apply it to many of the currently touring roofs and lighting/sound rigs.

I'm interested in hearing from, and sharing with, other members who are working on such projects, although the topic might be considered by the mods as being a bit too advanced for discussion in the open forum.


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## avkid (Jun 28, 2012)

FatherMurphy said:


> Working for a company that will be supplying a roof for a Cheap Trick concert later this summer, I've been tasked this spring with bringing our practices and recordkeeping up the levels that the band is now requiring in their rider. As part of this, I've been working with one of our local structural engineers on verifying what our roof should and should not be expected to do, and we've been learning from the process. Some of what we'd been doing all along, as we were shown by the manufacturers when the first roof was purchased, really isn't quite enough for all possible (and probable) situations. Also, the one ESTA/ANSI standard that does exist appears to have a couple of major flaws when attempting to apply it to many of the currently touring roofs and lighting/sound rigs.
> 
> I'm interested in hearing from, and sharing with, other members who are working on such projects, although the topic might be considered by the mods as being a bit too advanced for discussion in the open forum.



We recently load tested our Total Structures roof along with adding permanent guy wire attachment points.
Everything was found to be in excess of spec.


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## Footer (Jun 29, 2012)

avkid said:


> I disagree here, the largest promoter in the country already has their own set of standards in place that are far more strict than some proposed legislation.
> When the industry giants act, the rest will follow.



Keep in mind, Live Nation, who I assume you are talking about... was the promoter for the Toronto show.


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## Footer (Jun 29, 2012)

avkid said:


> We recently load tested our Total Structures roof along with adding permanent guy wire attachment points.
> Everything was found to be in excess of spec.



Keep in mind just because you are at manufacture spec does not mean you are safe. The roof that went down in Indiana was pretty much up to spec. Even if they would have installed it beyond spec, it still would not have held up to the wind rating that the roof carried.


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## avkid (Jun 29, 2012)

Footer said:


> Keep in mind, Live Nation, who I assume you are talking about... was the promoter for the Toronto show.


Live Nation US and Live Nation Canada are under separate leadership.


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## FatherMurphy (Jun 30, 2012)

Just for the record, this discussion isn't academic to me. We had a 40x40 roof up this weekend, and had a storm system blow through with 58 mph winds recorded at a airport a few miles away, and up to 75 mph in surrounding towns. We had 120K of lights in the air, and a line-array sound system that had been lowered to touch the ground to stop pendulum swinging. Half the skin broke its bungees and came loose. No other damage to our gear, other than gel blowing out of frames.

I'm very interested in matching notes with other roof techs.


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## techieman33 (Jul 1, 2012)

FatherMurphy said:


> Just for the record, this discussion isn't academic to me. We had a 40x40 roof up this weekend, and had a storm system blow through with 58 mph winds recorded at a airport a few miles away, and up to 75 mph in surrounding towns. We had 120K of lights in the air, and a line-array sound system that had been lowered to touch the ground to stop pendulum swinging. Half the skin broke its bungees and came loose. No other damage to our gear, other than gel blowing out of frames.
> 
> I'm very interested in matching notes with other roof techs.



Just saw what I assume to be video of that stage, scary stuff.

Single Video Player


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## derekleffew (Jul 1, 2012)

FatherMurphy said:


> ... other than gel blowing out of frames.


Hate it when that happens. Always use double brad s when working outside.


techieman33 said:


> Just saw what I assume to be video of that stage, scary stuff.
> Single Video Player


The video linked to above is NOT FatherMurphy's stage, but of a stage in Dayton, Ohio at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base Friday, 06/29/12. Though no collapse or injuries, the structure was damaged enough that a crane had to be brought in to dismantle it safely. Tattoo canceled due to storm; storm damage reported . The same video is at the newspaper's site.

A photo of the aftermath: http://www.wpafb.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/photos/2012/06/120629-F-NV267-004.jpg .

Another video from local TV news: http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid97611361001?bckey=AQ~~,AAAAAFb6jxY~,bNxdfWL8PBuX-vNo4HlzLS7yBpgm_l4D&bctid=1712971700001 .
A video from Thursday, prior to the incident: http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid97611361001?bckey=AQ~~,AAAAAFb6jxY~,bNxdfWL8PBuX-vNo4HlzLS7yBpgm_l4D&bctid=1712971700001 .


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## FatherMurphy (Jul 2, 2012)

Correct, that is NOT my roof. Thanks for the video link, though. It'll go in the hopper for show-and-tell.


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