# Darkness in a venue (church, theatre)



## Derek220

What are the considerations (specifically life safety codes) regarding the light level in the house during a theatrical performance? (under normal power circumstances. Not when power fails and emergency batteries or generators kick in)

Why I'm asking:
I've been operating lights for a church and during an event, I was asked to turn off most of the lights. This left the house in a rather hard to navigate darkness (the stage was lit).


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## tdrga

Derek220 said:


> What are the considerations (specifically life safety codes) regarding the light level in the house during a theatrical performance? (under normal power circumstances. Not when power fails and emergency batteries or generators kick in)
> 
> Why I'm asking:
> I've been operating lights for a church and during an event, I was asked to turn off most of the lights. This left the house in a rather hard to navigate darkness (the stage was lit).


The International Building Code has light level requirements in Section 1006 "Means of Egress Illumination." In general, it is not less than 1 footcandle (at the walking surface) which can be reduced to 0.2 footcandles during performances as long as the fire alarm system will increase the light level automatically when activated.
Of course, your AHJ may have different requirements or enforce different codes with higher levels.
You should be able to review a current copy of the Code at a local library or you can find older versions online.
Your organization is always able to establish a policy for higher light levels if warranted - if your primary audience is elderly, I would go brighter.
-Todd


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## Derek220

Thank you so much for the code references. Perhaps each year of the IBC has similar requirements for illumination of means of egress, but out of curiosity which year were you looking at?

A quick glance at NFPA 101 shows similar requirements to IBC in section 7.8 (In assembly occupancies 0.2fc is allowed during a performance.)


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## tdrga

Derek220 said:


> Thank you so much for the code references. Perhaps each year of the IBC has similar requirements for illumination of means of egress, but out of curiosity which year were you looking at?
> 
> A quick glance at NFPA 101 shows similar requirements to IBC in section 7.8 (In assembly occupancies 0.2fc is allowed during a performance.)


I referenced the 2012 version of the IBC. That was the code version I had regarding illumination measurements relating to a lawsuit from an audience member's trip and fall during a performance. And that's all I can say about that...
-Todd


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## BillConnerFASTC

Generally, when occupied, aisles, cross aisles, and all walking areas other than aisle accessways (code for that space between rows of seats) at 0.2 fc. That is minimum over entire width of aisles - not average. 

Interestingly, the LSC is much more particular about the emergency lighting - averages, minimums, and contracts ratios.




Few seat end aisle lights do the job, the Irwin "concealed" aisle light being one that generally does. Some years ago a lighting designer proposed changing form 0.2 to 0.1, his substantiation being that almost no facilities he measured met the 0.2 requirement, and IIRC around half would meet the 0.1.

This is illumination - light directed on the floor. There is no provision for illuminance meeting this code requirement, such as the Tivoli style in transitions at the edge of the aisles.

Ramped and level aisles without obstructions and other hazards are not too much of a problem. Aisle stairs, especially if the treads are not uniform and/or risers exceed 7", seem to be a greater hazard.


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## tdrga

BillConnerFASTC said:


> Generally, when occupied, aisles, cross aisles, and all walking areas other than aisle accessways (code for that space between rows of seats) at 0.2 fc. That is minimum over entire width of aisles - not average.
> 
> Interestingly, the LSC is much more particular about the emergency lighting - averages, minimums, and contracts ratios.
> View attachment 19343
> 
> 
> Few seat end aisle lights do the job, the Irwin "concealed" aisle light being one that generally does. Some years ago a lighting designer proposed changing form 0.2 to 0.1, his substantiation being that almost no facilities he measured met the 0.2 requirement, and IIRC around half would meet the 0.1.
> 
> This is illumination - light directed on the floor. There is no provision for illuminance meeting this code requirement, such as the Tivoli style in transitions at the edge of the aisles.
> 
> Ramped and level aisles without obstructions and other hazards are not too much of a problem. Aisle stairs, especially if the treads are not uniform and/or risers exceed 7", seem to be a greater hazard.


The IBC does have similar or the same language as the LSC you quoted above for emergency lighting (as opposed to normal power "House Out" levels). It seems that the codes are pretty much in agreement on this particular issue (which is good!).
-Todd


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## BillConnerFASTC

Yes they do pretty much agree. I was looking at 2018 of both. Harmonizing the codes is one of those things I've worked on since I got involved in code development in 1987. To few of these buildings built to have different requirements each time.


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## tjrobb

FWIW, 0.2fc is roughly a moonlit night.


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## ACTSTech

We're fighting this in our renovation. The fire codes at the local level conflict with state codes and without permanent seating, we're not sure who to follow. The local fire codes are a mishmash of new regulations written as a result of devastating fires as well as ancient tomes from when a lot of places had candle-lit fixtures (mostly left in place for churches who still use candles for parts of services). On top of that, the regulations also are dependent on how the building is zoned... The latest proposal, because the seating could theoretically change due to the performance, is to leave the house lights on at 10% at all times. This seems to be arbitrary, because they've never measured any illumination, so theoretically I could put in one 100-watt incandescent bulb and they would be okay with it.

Does anyone know whether the amount of light coming from the stage into the house is ever taken into account? That's a random question, I know, I'm just curious. I've been in houses with white walls which are lit up brighter than their walkway lights due to bounce.


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## Malabaristo

ACTSTech said:


> Does anyone know whether the amount of light coming from the stage into the house is ever taken into account? That's a random question, I know, I'm just curious. I've been in houses with white walls which are lit up brighter than their walkway lights due to bounce.



I'm sure people have made that argument before, but it doesn't really apply to code-mandated minimum illumination. Stage lighting changes depending on the show and the specific moment, so you can't count on it to be there all the time. The closest thing I've seen in more acceptable use was a set of theatrical fixtures dedicated as aisle lights with either shutter cuts or custom gobos (think Tetris shapes) to avoid spill on the audience. That does let you turn the houselights off during the show, but those fixtures would not count as emergency lighting. You would still need some other system to provide the minimum illumination if there's a power failure or other emergency.


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## macsound

I'm wondering how the code differs for permanent vs temporary seating. I know linking the chairs, therefore creating predictable aisles and preventing the pileup of chairs is required, but since the room is classified as general use, there's no predefined aisles to light with aisle lights.

When I've worked at venues that had inadequate ambient lighting that would sometimes leave the houselights at 10% during tech week so people could see when walking around. I'd intentionally take them to 0% to prove if you can't see to get backstage, the 80-year-old isn't going to be able to see to take a mid act 1 pee. 

One theatre I loved made the genius move to have dimmer and dimmer bulbs in the vestibule from the lobby to the theatre so the one closest to the door into the theatre was only a 25w blue bulb. Obviously, it also made it better for light leak, but the 60w in the outer doorway to 40w halfway down to 25w allowed even the slightest ability for your eyes to adjust before being plunged into darkness.


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## ACTSTech

Oh, I'm not suggesting that the bounce and spill from the stage be counted as fire safety illumination at all. I just find some of the archaic and random numbers that seem to be tossed out there to be, well, random. Is someone walking through with a light meter measuring 1 foot candle and saying this is enough? Like one person on here told me when I was asking about stage illumination, there's a difference in everything that can't be compared. LED is different from incandescent, and color temperatures change things too. It's somewhat subjective.

Like I posted, the fire inspector said he'd consider 10% good enough. I didn't respond, but 10% of what? If I have a 100 watt bulb in a floor lamp, and a 1000 watt PAR 64, and a 25 watt reading light, 10% is totally different, but still 10%. I've had arguments with people over lighting backstage, some want blue, some want red, some want it high, some on the floor, again, it's subjective. I usually err on the side of caution, but I enjoy seeing what others think and have experienced.


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## RickR

Getting an agreement with your inspector is the ultimate goal. Codes and standards are key, but not the last word. 

Last I looked, IES recommendations for aisles was 10-15 foot candles. 10% of that is well above most codes but not ridiculous. Keep in mind that ALL light sources fade with age. Suggesting a target illumination might remove some of the vagueness you have. 

With a changeable seating layout, you might consider a grid of narrow beam house lights that can be controlled independently. That or moving fixtures around, show by show.


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## Malabaristo

macsound said:


> I'm wondering how the code differs for permanent vs temporary seating. I know linking the chairs, therefore creating predictable aisles and preventing the pileup of chairs is required, but since the room is classified as general use, there's no predefined aisles to light with aisle lights.



The code doesn't care, because it doesn't say you have to light _just _the aisles. With fixed seating you can pretty easily be more specific about only lighting the required areas, so that's the default. With moveable seating, you either need moveable lights or general illumination to hit the same targets anywhere an aisle might end up on a given show.


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## ACTSTech

Malabaristo said:


> The code doesn't care, because it doesn't say you have to light _just _the aisles. With fixed seating you can pretty easily be more specific about only lighting the required areas, so that's the default. With moveable seating, you either need moveable lights or general illumination to hit the same targets anywhere an aisle might end up on a given show.


That's what our fire inspector said, that because there's no "goal" area for people to hit, like and aisle that's always there, you have to provide illumination over a general area. It's the details that get blurry after that which are causing the headaches.


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## jtweigandt

I went to a performance of the "Cinderella" National Tour at the University of Illinois (Fairy Godmother was a schoolmate of our daughters) 
For the upper deck in the arena reconfigured as Theater space, they used long throw Elipsoidals to hit the aisles/stairs in the upper decks. (could have been better aimed though) 

I wonder about a fleet of cheap chinese movers.. you can re config for where ever the aisles occur? aim at the aisle, dim down to taste.. They threw these from the front.. so the "fan" 
would be able to align with the "fan" or aisles. But I think you could have an array high and toward the back that might do.


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## tjrobb

Or you could do like our 9000 seat arena plus convention center, fake the emergency lighting system. They used latching relays and tested the system by popping the main; of course it worked... there's just nothing sensing a power cut if they're not already On. Just a few empty conduits and unconnected sensors.


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## ACTSTech

Just had a meeting with the architect and electrician and they suggested that we recess rope light in the floor like you see in movie theaters. If you calculate the output by linear foot, it would be about 80 lumens, so 7 or 8 fc, which is well above the limit. Anyone have thoughts about this?


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## jtweigandt

We have some rope light embedded in the floor in a few spots. Had to recently replace the old incandescent. All the new stuff was LED and WAY TOO BRIGHT.. Fortunately whatever transformer they were using to drive them was happy when placed on an old analog style household twist dimmer switch. So I would say.. yea, but with the provision of dimming. Then if they are really picky put a light meter on it and mark the switch position, or put another switch in series and the dimmer in a clear thermostat vented lock box if they demand you be able to leave at a setting.


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## microstar

I have always found "aisle lighting" like this distracting when sitting in aisle seats, but just my 2 cents.
If you do this, I would seek out very high quality LED strips made for this purpose and not have them on all the time. But if on a switch, of course someone has to remember to turn them on and off.
Maybe a relay that turns on when it senses DMX from the console?


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## RonHebbard

microstar said:


> I have always found "aisle lighting" like this distracting when sitting in aisle seats, but just my 2 cents.
> If you do this, I would seek out very high quality LED strips made for this purpose and not have them on all the time. But if on a switch, of course someone has to remember to turn them on and off.
> Maybe a relay that turns on when it senses DMX from the console?


If your console's on when when various staff enter during non performance / rehearsal hours.
Toodleoo! 
Ron Hebbard


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## almorton

In our theatre we have lights embedded in the nose of the stairs. We recently refitted them, using a fixture which uses a sort of lossy fibre optic in a channel, with a single 5mm LED at the end(s). For runs of 3m or less you only need an LED at one end, but we have one "step" which is about6m wide, so one at each end. Anyway, when the house lights are on full, the stair noses are still nicely illuminated, but with the house lights out they flood the auditorium with light, so we have a DMX LED dimmer in circuit, which means the hot side of the power supply never goes near a dimmer, it's on hard power. I fitted a by pass circuit so that they're only dimmed when there's DMX present.


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## RonHebbard

almorton said:


> In our theatre we have lights embedded in the nose of the stairs. We recently refitted them, using a fixture which uses a sort of lossy fibre optic in a channel, with a single 5mm LED at the end(s). For runs of 3m or less you only need an LED at one end, but we have one "step" which is about6m wide, so one at each end. Anyway, when the house lights are on full, the stair noses are still nicely illuminated, but with the house lights out they flood the auditorium with light, so we have a DMX LED dimmer in circuit, which means the hot side of the power supply never goes near a dimmer, it's on hard power. I fitted a by pass circuit so that they're only dimmed when there's DMX present.


 *@almorton* Two thoughts / queries; 
*1*; With the strips on the risers / nose rather than the treads facing straight up, they won't shine in patrons' eyes while they're looking at the stage during performances. 

*2*; With the strips facing the stage, do they illuminate performers / "dead bodies" springing to life and exiting during mid scene / act blackouts while your house curtain is open / flown? 
Toodleoo! 
Ron Hebbard


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## microstar

This seems a bit excessive!!


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## RickR

There is an argument that floor regressed lights are worse than nothing. Blinding people is counter productive! Further it does not shine on the floor. The code specification is for illuminate not luminance.


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## tjrobb

We have stair tread lighting. It comes off the FOH (lobby) dimming system and is on whenever the house manager gets in pre-show until she leaves. It's impossible to control from the stage system so it can't be turned off accidentally. At the moment I can't remember if it dims, tho. Due to wall and ceiling colors and other factors we don't have too much "house glow" from them.


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## ACTSTech

RickR said:


> There is an argument that floor regressed lights are worse than nothing. Blinding people is counter productive! Further it does not shine on the floor. The code specification is for illuminate not luminance.
> View attachment 21518


My real issue is still finding something that appeases everyone. The architect is pushing rope light in the floor, the electrician is pushing for 40W fluorescent tubes to be on all the time. Obviously the fluorescent tubes isn't an option I'm willing to consider, so I'm left trying to find the solution. The walls are solid plaster over mesh over brick, so there's no room behind them for conduit or wiring. I'd prefer to go with wall sconces that are down lit only, but I don't think I can do this. The overhead lights are fluorescent, but the electrician priced it at $2200 a light to convert to LED, so we're probably not going to be able to afford that, plus they aren't dimmable anyhow. That seems extreme for one light with 4 ballasts, but I'm not the expert.

I'm wondering if LED tape with a heavy frost over the lens attached to the baseboard would work. The light would be focused outward to the aisle but not upward into eyes. Obviously it would be brighter nearer the wall, but if we could achieve that required levels, we'd be better.


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## RonHebbard

ACTSTech said:


> My real issue is still finding something that appeases everyone. The architect is pushing rope light in the floor, the electrician is pushing for 40W fluorescent tubes to be on all the time. Obviously the fluorescent tubes isn't an option I'm willing to consider, so I'm left trying to find the solution. The walls are solid plaster over mesh over brick, so there's no room behind them for conduit or wiring. I'd prefer to go with wall sconces that are down lit only, but I don't think I can do this. The overhead lights are fluorescent, but the electrician priced it at $2200 a light to convert to LED, so we're probably not going to be able to afford that, plus they aren't dimmable anyhow. That seems extreme for one light with 4 ballasts, but I'm not the expert.
> 
> I'm wondering if LED tape with a heavy frost over the lens attached to the baseboard would work. The light would be focused outward to the aisle but not upward into eyes. Obviously it would be brighter nearer the wall, but if we could achieve that required levels, we'd be better.


"The walls are solid plaster over mesh over brick, so there's no room behind them for conduit or wiring. I'd prefer to go with wall sconces that are down lit only, but I don't think I can do this."

*@RC4Wireless* Jim; Does this sound like something up your battery powered / wireless alley? 
Toodleoo! 
Ron Hebbard


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## DrewE

$2200 per fluorescent light to convert to LED is excessive unless there's something really, really special about the lights or some very particular code requirements. Adaptation kits are somewhere in the rough vicinity of $10-$25 at most per tube, according to a quick Google search. Even with labor and lift rental and so forth I cannot fathom how it might cost $2200 per light; that seems like at least an order of magnitude too expensive.


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## ACTSTech

DrewE said:


> $2200 per fluorescent light to convert to LED is excessive unless there's something really, really special about the lights or some very particular code requirements. Adaptation kits are somewhere in the rough vicinity of $10-$25 at most per tube, according to a quick Google search. Even with labor and lift rental and so forth I cannot fathom how it might cost $2200 per light; that seems like at least an order of magnitude too expensive.


So the lights are semi-historical and have to remain. They were "updated" in 2004 with "new" electric (I'd hate to see the old) and are a little unique. Each light has a 36" circular plate that the lights sit on. There's 4 ballasts attached to each plate to run the fluorescent tubes. Ballast 1 runs two tubes, ballast 2 runs two tubes, and there are two ballasts for 3, which runs 4 total (two each). Lights are 40 watt 2G11. I don't know if the issue is being able to dim them, but something's wrong. Just seems like too much. I think there's probably a more elegant solution.

If anyone is curious or wants to see the setup, let me know. I don't want to clog things up with tons of pictures if no one cares.


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## jtweigandt

Well a quick google search shows ballast compatible 2g11 tubes 4000K color temp at 10 bucks a pop.
Is the current bid specifying removing ballasts and replacing with a non ballast system.. so if my count is right you have 10 tubes per fixture.. 100 bucks a fixture for direct replacement (probably better purchased in quantity. Probably not dimmable, but were it me.. I would wire them in banks that could be turned off 1,2,3,4 and have a few dimmables installed for the "final dimdown" I also see some in the 20 buck range that you take out the ballast and connect the existing wiring directly to the power.. That MIGHT get you dimmability if you find the right bulb and read the fine print. Labor for a cut strip and new twist connector still shouldn't be that much per fixture. 15 - 20 min job even the first time through?


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## RonHebbard

ACTSTech said:


> So the lights are semi-historical and have to remain. They were "updated" in 2004 with "new" electric (I'd hate to see the old) and are a little unique. Each light has a 36" circular plate that the lights sit on. There's 4 ballasts attached to each plate to run the fluorescent tubes. Ballast 1 runs two tubes, ballast 2 runs two tubes, and there are two ballasts for 3, which runs 4 total (two each). Lights are 40 watt 2G11. I don't know if the issue is being able to dim them, but something's wrong. Just seems like too much. I think there's probably a more elegant solution.
> 
> If anyone is curious or wants to see the setup, let me know. I don't want to clog things up with tons of pictures if no one cares.


I care and I'd love to learn / see pictures: Clog on. 
Toodleoo! 
Ron Hebbard


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## ACTSTech




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## jtweigandt

hells bells.. everything is right out there in the open... Looks like it would be 2 seperate positionings of a scissor lift, but you could bypass the ballasts and use the
direct non ballasted replacements so easily there.. Now if you can find some that dim, the world is your oyster. Of course the technician in you shows us the business end of the fixture.
Kindly contact your inner artist and show us the pretty side too


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## RonHebbard

ACTSTech said:


> View attachment 21544


*@ACTSTech* Perhaps it's my compromised vision; am I seeing single-ended fluorescent tubes?? 
Toodleoo! 
Ron Hebbard


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## ACTSTech

It's an interesting design. Everything is currently lamped with PL-L 40W/830/4P/IS fluorescents. I'll call them circuits in reference. Circuit 1 is the closest to the center and has two lamps. As you can see, they're oriented perpendicular to the plate and not really down in the slot, less than half the tube is providing down light, so 40 watts total coming through? The rest of the lamps are up-lighting. Circuit 2 is the next, again two lamps, but these are parallel to the plate. Circuit 3 is a dual ballast setup, four lamps, again only for up-lighting.

Like you said @jtweigandt, it seems like we could totally bypass the ballast. I'm not even sold on reusing the equipment there, but I'm not really interested in doing too much as I'm working on some scaffolding and there's 10 pendant lights that need to be redone. Each circuit is on a 20A breaker, so there's plenty of room.


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## ACTSTech




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## ACTSTech




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## RonHebbard

ACTSTech said:


> View attachment 21546


"Made in Poland." That explains a lot. 
Toodleoo! 
Ron Hebbard


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## jtweigandt

ACTSTech said:


> It's an interesting design. Everything is currently lamped with PL-L 40W/830/4P/IS fluorescents. I'll call them circuits in reference. Circuit 1 is the closest to the center and has two lamps. As you can see, they're oriented perpendicular to the plate and not really down in the slot, less than half the tube is providing down light, so 40 watts total coming through? The rest of the lamps are up-lighting. Circuit 2 is the next, again two lamps, but these are parallel to the plate. Circuit 3 is a dual ballast setup, four lamps, again only for up-lighting.
> 
> Like you said @jtweigandt, it seems like we could totally bypass the ballast. I'm not even sold on reusing the equipment there, but I'm not really interested in doing too much as I'm working on some scaffolding and there's 10 pendant lights that need to be redone. Each circuit is on a 20A breaker, so there's plenty of room.


No matter who does them, renting a small manually moved scissor or sliding extension lift would cut the working time by a factor of 10 over scaffolding. Bet you could get one of these for a day for 500 bucks https://www.jlg.com/-/media/jlg/cur...5am/images/25am-gallery-silo.png?mw=320?w=100


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## almorton

RonHebbard said:


> *@almorton* Two thoughts / queries;
> *1*; With the strips on the risers / nose rather than the treads facing straight up, they won't shine in patrons' eyes while they're looking at the stage during performances.


This is correct. The shape of the mouldings that the "fibre optic" fits into means that we can control the direction of the beam, so most of the light is aimed down onto the the tread of the next step down, with little glare coming upwards, certainly not straight into the eyes.


RonHebbard said:


> *2*; With the strips facing the stage, do they illuminate performers / "dead bodies" springing to life and exiting during mid scene / act blackouts while your house curtain is open / flown?
> Toodleoo!
> Ron Hebbard


Yes, that's the problem, the auditorium steps at the top of the rake illuminate the stage sufficiently that you can easily see people moving around, like having worker blues on, while those lower down illuminate the backs of the seats in the stalls enough that it's really distracting. Since these are courtesy lights, not emergency lights, we dim them during the performance, so that the "splashback" is minimised, and the stage isn't lit by them. You can still see the steps and floor in the dark to move around, because they're not off completely, but when the aud lights are on we raise the level as a courtesy so the step edges are still brightly lit.

You can get an idea of just how much light a standard LED puts out from a show I did where we had individual 10mm white LEDs set into a set piece to twinkle like seaside festoon lights. They were run at 30mA and, from the stage, you could make out individual pools of light on the auditorium walls 30-40 feet away.


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## RonHebbard

jtweigandt said:


> No matter who does them, renting a small manually moved scissor or sliding extension lift would cut the working time by a factor of 10 over scaffolding. Bet you could get one of these for a day for 500 bucks https://www.jlg.com/-/media/jlg/cur...5am/images/25am-gallery-silo.png?mw=320?w=100


*@ACTSTech* Could; weight, point load, steps, or slope, be a problem with a scissor, or similar, lift?
Toodleoo! 
Ron Hebbard


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## ACTSTech

RonHebbard said:


> *@ACTSTech* Could; weight, point load, steps, or slope, be a problem with a scissor, or similar, lift?
> Toodleoo!
> Ron Hebbard


That's one of my concerns. Structurally, the church floor is fine for an audience or a congregation, but I'm waiting to see what the structural engineer thinks. There's a fellowship hall below the sanctuary, and we know there's steel I-beams, but we're not 100% sure the floor will hold scissor lifts without some sort of massive spread to limit point load. There's one handicap ramp leading into a double door, but then there's a turn, so we're pretty limited in scope. Believe me, I'm trying for the lift. Darn 125+ year old buildings. Why didn't they think of these things when they old-country bohunk beetfarmers and coal miners and steel workers were building it! Curse their short-sightedness!


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## tjrobb

I'm in Iowa, but here we have a "church lift". Basically, it's a stick lift designed to spread its weight and fit thru a standard double door. (Helpful in a 65' atrium with said doors and poorly laid tiles. My 180 pounds on a scissor lift made unhappy noises on this floor).


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## RonHebbard

tjrobb said:


> I'm in Iowa, but here we have a "church lift". Basically, it's a stick lift designed to spread its weight and fit thru a standard double door. (Helpful in a 65' atrium with said doors and poorly laid tiles.


 "My 180 pounds on a scissor lift made unhappy noises on this floor". 
Likewise your 180 pounds would make unhappy noises if/when you suddenly decelerated upon striking said floor. 
Toodleoo! 
Ron Hebbard


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## jtweigandt

ACTSTech said:


> That's one of my concerns. Structurally, the church floor is fine for an audience or a congregation, but I'm waiting to see what the structural engineer thinks. There's a fellowship hall below the sanctuary, and we know there's steel I-beams, but we're not 100% sure the floor will hold scissor lifts without some sort of massive spread to limit point load. There's one handicap ramp leading into a double door, but then there's a turn, so we're pretty limited in scope. Believe me, I'm trying for the lift. Darn 125+ year old buildings. Why didn't they think of these things when they old-country bohunk beetfarmers and coal miners and steel workers were building it! Curse their short-sightedness!


The smaller "telescope" lifts are a fraction of the weight of an autonomous scissor lift. Not as convenient.. as you have to extend/retract the spreader/levelers and push it around but still probably better than slogging and climbing scaffold


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## RonHebbard

jtweigandt said:


> The smaller "telescope" lifts are a fraction of the weight of an autonomous scissor lift. Not as convenient.. as you have to extend/retract the spreader/levelers and push it around but still probably better than slogging and climbing scaffold


Slopes and stairs / stepped rows are still amongst my concerns. 
Toodleoo! 
Ron Hebbard


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## DrewE

RonHebbard said:


> Slopes and stairs / stepped rows are still amongst my concerns.
> Toodleoo!
> Ron Hebbard


Probably no stairs amongst the seats in a church; at least, I've never seen that. A balcony could be another story (no pun intended).

My high school had a Genie hoist with a "super straddle" gizmo that it could attach into. This was a sort of specialized scaffolding with hoisting cables on either end; by putting the Genie hoist into it and cranking up the ends appropriately, it could roll between the rows of seats in the auditorium, with the hoist suspended over the seats, and compensate for the sloped floor and allow one access to the house electric or other stuff on the ceiling. (There were sockets in the straddle gizmo for the hoist outriggers to fit into so as to stabilize it.)

Besides scaffolding, there is always the Little Giant skyscraper A-frame ladder, maxing out at 21' height (so maybe a 25' or so working height).


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## RC4Wireless

RonHebbard said:


> "The walls are solid plaster over mesh over brick, so there's no room behind them for conduit or wiring. I'd prefer to go with wall sconces that are down lit only, but I don't think I can do this."
> 
> *@RC4Wireless* Jim; Does this sound like something up your battery powered / wireless alley?



Wireless control might be helpful, but I'm not sure.

Power is the challenge. Batteries are generally not the answer for installation work unless coupled with wireless recharge -- like solar -- and that's not feasible in this situation. 

I like the LED tape idea. Use good quality 24V tape that provides even brightness over the entire length and even multiple lengths of tape in series. This works really well because:
(a) The LEDs themselves are operating at under 5V, so there's lots of room for voltage drop on the 24V lines running over long lengths. The good products place a switching regulator along the tape every foot or so. You want that feature in this case.
(b) Higher voltage means lower amperage for the same light output. There's a chance you could run with Class 2 power supplies and avoid a whole lot of safety/inspection problems. Local code applies, YMMV.

Jim
RC4


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## ACTSTech

RC4Wireless said:


> Wireless control might be helpful, but I'm not sure.
> 
> Power is the challenge. Batteries are generally not the answer for installation work unless coupled with wireless recharge -- like solar -- and that's not feasible in this situation.
> 
> I like the LED tape idea. Use good quality 24V tape that provides even brightness over the entire length and even multiple lengths of tape in series. This works really well because:
> (a) The LEDs themselves are operating at under 5V, so there's lots of room for voltage drop on the 24V lines running over long lengths. The good products place a switching regulator along the tape every foot or so. You want that feature in this case.
> (b) Higher voltage means lower amperage for the same light output. There's a chance you could run with Class 2 power supplies and avoid a whole lot of safety/inspection problems. Local code applies, YMMV.
> 
> Jim
> RC4


Thanks for the input Jim. My initial response to the problem was thinking along the same lines as you. If we have to remove, paint and remount the baseboard anyhow, I was thinking that maybe adding a strip of the 24v LED tape on the top of the baseboard would work. They have channels that would run the tape at a 45-degree angle, so I could direct it down to the floor, out of people's eyes then throw a frosted lens over the entire strip. It wouldn't be too difficult to run that to a middle location where I already planned power and DMX drops, so theoretically it could go to the board and we could go from there. I hate cutting up walls with conduit if I don't have to, so that might be a more elegant solution in the long run. I don't have much experience, but it seems like a simple DMX decoder would be easily integrated. Thoughts?


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## RC4Wireless

All sounds sensible to me. I think Environmental Lights has everything you need. 

But if you want it to be wireless... then come talk to me, I've got little boxes that go between the power supply and the LEDs and take care of everything else, DMX controlled.


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