# Genie Safety?



## thebikingtechie (Oct 1, 2006)

This summer I had a lighting internship in a local theater. Whenever we hung lights in large quantities we would get out the Genie lift. To save time the would have someone go up in the genie and then once they were up to the right height someone on the ground would remove the outriggers and push them around to different spots to hang lights. When a light was needed someone on the ground would clip it on to a rope that would be pulled up by the person in the basket. I am wondering if this is common procedure or if it was just this one theater. I was thinkng that if you left the out riggers in but not screw them down it might be a little safer. This would definitley save time and in my school's theater.
Thanks


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## soundlight (Oct 1, 2006)

I usually leave the outriggers almost screwed down, and then I am able to move it without cranking the outriggers every time. I would never go up in the genie without the legs in. But I do leave them only almost screwed down so that it is easier to move. But about the lights, I just clamp a few to the safety bars of the genie (and safety cable them), and then take them up. I come back down when I need more to hang.


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## RiffRaff54 (Oct 1, 2006)

at my theatre i go up in the genie then someone on the ground unscrews the outriggers enough to push me around. the genie at my college doesn't even have outriggers.

while on the subject of genie safty, who wears a harness when they go up in one?


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## sound_nerd (Oct 1, 2006)

It's a requirement to wear a harness when you're in a Genie (or any manlift/scissor lift) here in Canada.


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## Peter (Oct 1, 2006)

That would never even be considered at either of my schools. To move it you always have to come down, take the outriggers off and move it, put them back in, screw them down and go back up. We used to just come down, unscrew the outriggers abit and slide it (while on the ground) but the little pins inside the outriggers got distroyed from the forces of being bounced arround across the floor and required expensive repairs. I do belive it is completely against the genie maual to move the genie at all while it is extended, let alone without outrigers out. If you must move while up, get something like a sicisor lift that is designed to move while up.


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## tenor_singer (Oct 1, 2006)

Personally... I am unwilling to risk injury to save myself 2 minutes of time unscrewing outriggers. I think people should rethink bypassing safety features. It simply isn't worth it.


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## Footer (Oct 1, 2006)

About the harness thing... I look at it in two different ways... if i fall out of the basket I want that harness there to keep me from falling 30', but on the other side.. if for some reason the lift were to fall over I am now stuck in that basket. I know that in scisors lifts and boom lifts that you have to wear a harness, but I have heard and read two different things about vertical lifts. As far as moving the lift while I am up in it, every theatre I have worked in moves the lift with the lift up. The genie in one of the spaces has 4 12" casters attached to it and small outrigers that make it very easy to move. In newer lifts with safetys that keep the lift from moving without outrigers in I usuall do the get to trim and pull the riggers routine. I am a huge fan of scisor lifts at focus. A few words of safety is that I prefer to have the people moving the lift to have hard hats on incase a stray gel frame comes down.


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## BillESC (Oct 1, 2006)

As a Genie dealer I will tell you the outriggers must be in place and under weight for safe operation.

As a lighting guy we came up with a great "get-a-round" You can buy 3 wheeled casters for pianos, they are the perfect size for the outrigger pads to land on. This way your outriggers can be in place and under weight and still roll.


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## soundlight (Oct 1, 2006)

Aha! That is a great idea. I'll have to remember that one.


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## fosstech (Oct 1, 2006)

We have three Genies here, two use outriggers, and the third one (bigger than the other two) has a really heavy base that drops down a few inches so the foot pads on each corner contact the ground. When you want to move it, just pump the foot pedal a few times which will hydraulically lift the weight/feet and transfer the entire load to the wheels. It's a lot easier and quicker to move around when somebody's on it.

For the Genies with the outriggers, we just loosen the outriggers a little, and push it around. We always make sure that the person on the lift knows when we're pushing them and where.

We don't use safety harnesses, at least when working in our black box. It's not really high enough to warrant using them, and the Genies aren't extended enough to risk a tip over.


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## jbeutt (Oct 1, 2006)

This a seriously incorrect practice. Although this is common, it it entirely unsafe and unprofessional. Basic physics will tell you this is a terrible idea and should NEVER be attempted by ANYONE. It's the job of an ME, TD or any professional to plan their time in a way that allows for safe working procedures. Not too long ago, a union worker here in SF was being pushed in a genie lift which fell and paralyzed him. Beforehand, I'm certain he thought it was worth the time saved. Probably not afterwards.

The outriggers and Genie lift system is designed for stationary use only. It's foolish and unprofessional to use it otherwise. Again, it's your job to plan a hang giving appropriate consideration to safety.

Do the math and see that given the right accelleration from the bottom, and too much top loading, the lift can easily topple. It might not even be user error, but a bump in the ground or someone on top being snagged on a fixture.

I don't for a second think this will stop anyone from doing this, but it's an important lesson to learn in this industry not to be too proud to be safe. We work with dangerous equipment and we should realize we as well as others are fallable, so we should take every precaution possible. You may trust yourself with equipment like this, but why neccessarily trust the guys on the ground, ESPECIALLY in an educational environment.

Furthermore, this being a public forum, I think it's innappropriate for people to advise improper handling of equipment like this. It's really upsetting to hear about things like this. If you want to go quickly, there ARE Genie scissor lifts and boom lifts that can move in the air. USE THEM!


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## jonhirsh (Oct 2, 2006)

OK, Is it safe no. 

Is it common practice yes. 

Should you do it ... nope.

Do most people do it ... yes. 

So the real question at hand is full body harness are required by all manufactures no matter where you live. But most people do not, why because its kinda silly. But it is really up to your boss weither or not you have to wear them. 

JH


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## Footer (Oct 2, 2006)

jonhirsh said:


> l body harness are required by all manufactures no matter where you live. But most people do not, why because its kinda silly. But it is really up to your boss weither or not you have to wear them.
> JH



Actually... its up to osha

http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=INTERPRETATIONS&p_id=24191


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## jonhirsh (Oct 2, 2006)

Nope oshas basicaly says the most stringent rules are applicable. Weither it is state or provincial law or even the manufactorers manual which ever is most stringent is the one you must follow. 

JH


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## avkid (Oct 2, 2006)

You should be wearing a work positioning harness in the bucket of a lift, not a fall arrest harness. If you fall out of the bucket and the harness catches you your entire weight and their force of your fall will cause the lift to tip over. The work positioning harness keeps you from getting in a position from which you could fall.


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## jonhirsh (Oct 3, 2006)

Work belts, or work postion harness are acctualy no longer legal atleast in canada. 

JH


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## ship (Oct 3, 2006)

Hard hats, safety person on the ground who's only job is to keep people away and ensure the lift does not operate unsafely or run over things, fall protection harnesses properly sized for the person wearing it, lanyards that are designed for the length of fall, specific training for the lift operated etc. Yep that's the conditions I work under. Way back when, yea it was expediant and normal. Much less I remember a reading something about a OSHA thing saying at fall protection was not necessary for some types of lift. That's all the simple and lazy and the norm is to use full protection and safety standards.


Do it properly or go home once implemented as policy goes a long way towards correcting what one does wrong but has excuses for, or expediant policies that could cost lives. Our shop foremen is a big safety person, amazing how fast things get turned around once one person puts his foot down in setting policy based upon real safety guidelines as opposed to what worked in the past. That's in part his job, he would not be doing it if he followed the norm in what was expediant.


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## jwl868 (Oct 3, 2006)

This thread mixes colloquial and technical terms. Genie makes several different products for work at heights. However, the “Genie” at one facility may not be the “Genie” at another facility. And this distinction is crucial in these discussions because in the US, the federal OSHA regulations for a scissors lift are different from those for just about every other type of lift, for example, the “bucket” used by electrical utility workers. 

Scissors lifts are regulated under the OSHA scaffolding standards. (See end of this paragraph.) More often than not, a scissors lift is equipped with railing that meets the fall protection standards in OSHA. Because of this, additional fall protection is not required. The placement of the lift relative to the work may be a factor in deciding if other protection should be used. http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=INTERPRETATIONS&p_id=24191

But the original post is about moving an extended and occupied lift (that I am assuming to be a scissors lift), and per US OSHA 29 CFR 1926.452 (w)(6), (somewhat surprisingly) this is permitted only if all five conditions (listed below) are met. Notwithstanding this, some of the reasons that such movement should not be done are noted by jbeutt, above.

http://www.osha.gov/
From 29 CFR 1926:
1926.452(w)(6) 
Employees shall not be allowed to ride on scaffolds unless the following conditions exist:
1926.452(w)(6)(i) The surface on which the scaffold is being moved is within 3 degrees of level, and free of pits, holes, and obstructions;
1926.452(w)(6)(ii) The height to base width ratio of the scaffold during movement is two to one or less, unless the scaffold is designed and constructed to meet or exceed nationally recognized stability test requirements such as those listed in paragraph (x) of Appendix A to this subpart (ANSI/SIA A92.5 and A92.6);
1926.452(w)(6)(iii) Outrigger frames, when used, are installed on both sides of the scaffold;
1926.452(w)(6)(iv) When power systems are used, the propelling force is applied directly to the wheels, and does not produce a speed in excess of 1 foot per second (.3 mps); and
1926.452(w)(6)(v) No employee is on any part of the scaffold which extends outward beyond the wheels, casters, or other supports.

For a given lift, the stability test in item (ii) can only be demonstrated with the some evidence from the manufacturer, probably a decal on the equipment or a statement in the operator’s manual. Otherwise, it would appear that the lift is just about down anyway to meet that height width ratio. 

I’m not sure about pulling items up with a rope, at least from a regulatory point of view. To do so would require reaching over the railing. My gut feeling is that this action could apply a tipping force to the lift so some caution is required (If anyone can cite one way or the other, I’d appreciate it.). While a lightweight object could be pulled up with no ill-effect, heavier loads could create a problem. 

Joe


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## disc2slick (Oct 4, 2006)

I'd just like to toss in my two cents on the subject and say that moving a genie with a person in the bucket and the bucket at is NOT an acceptable practice. Most people in the industry can probably tell you some horror story about this 'common practice' going wrong (I remember hearing one not too long ago that took place up here in Boston). It's a very easy thing to say "that won't happen to me" just like car crashes or other serious misfortunes, but it very well can happen to you, or to someone on your crew in the bucket you are pushing around. My advice would be to follow the standards described in the user's manual that comes with any piece of equipment. If you are asked to do something that violates it, refuse. it's easier to get a new job than a new spine.

-Dan


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## jonhirsh (Oct 4, 2006)

Um no the orginal poster was referning to an one man arial work platform commonly know as an single man lift. 
and it is not ok to move it under any conditions while a person is in the bucket. A scisor lift is something entirely differnt they are designed to be driven by motor while in the air. They hold more then one person as well. Generaly scissor lifts do not have out riggers, the gas/ propane models some times do but this is a construction thing. 

But people do and always will. Does that make it right ... thats for you to decide for your self. 

jh


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## jbeutt (Oct 4, 2006)

disc2slick,
You make a good point about not being pressured to do something you don't want to. I'm sure this is something many of us have encountered before. Those of you that haven't probably will at some point. If your friends make fun of you for using a Genie lift properly, well, they weren't your friends to begin with. Remember, just say NO to improper lift operation. 

Serrrrriously, though. There's a lot of pressure as an intern or new guy to impress and accomodate, but when it comes to this, it's just super important to trust your gut. I mean if you _don't_ feel uncomfotable being pushed in one of those things, you're just asking for trouble. Honestly, it's hard to feel comfortable on a single man lift when it's still and indoors. I can't imagine how uncomfortable I'd feel if it were being pushed.

In my mind, it's like seeing a ground lift on a plug. Now there's something none of us (maybe sound guys can relate better) would do. Safety chain on a fixture? How many have you seen fall, but we still do it.


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## sound_nerd (Oct 5, 2006)

jbeutt said:


> This a seriously incorrect practice. Although this is common, it it entirely unsafe and unprofessional. Basic physics will tell you this is a terrible idea and should NEVER be attempted by ANYONE. It's the job of an ME, TD or any professional to plan their time in a way that allows for safe working procedures. Not too long ago, a union worker here in SF was being pushed in a genie lift which fell and paralyzed him. Beforehand, I'm certain he thought it was worth the time saved. Probably not afterwards.
> The outriggers and Genie lift system is designed for stationary use only. It's foolish and unprofessional to use it otherwise. Again, it's your job to plan a hang giving appropriate consideration to safety.
> Do the math and see that given the right accelleration from the bottom, and too much top loading, the lift can easily topple. It might not even be user error, but a bump in the ground or someone on top being snagged on a fixture.
> I don't for a second think this will stop anyone from doing this, but it's an important lesson to learn in this industry not to be too proud to be safe. We work with dangerous equipment and we should realize we as well as others are fallable, so we should take every precaution possible. You may trust yourself with equipment like this, but why neccessarily trust the guys on the ground, ESPECIALLY in an educational environment.
> Furthermore, this being a public forum, I think it's innappropriate for people to advise improper handling of equipment like this. It's really upsetting to hear about things like this. If you want to go quickly, there ARE Genie scissor lifts and boom lifts that can move in the air. USE THEM!




jonhirsh said:


> Work belts, or work postion harness are acctualy no longer legal atleast in canada.
> JH



While the belts are not, using a full body harness with a proper work positioning lanyard is completely safe and legal.


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## jbeutt (Oct 6, 2006)

Dustincoc said:


> We both regularly get pushed around while ontop of the scaffolding. We don't even set the wheel locks when the scaffold is on the floor...We also don't use any type of safety harness
> 
> I should mention that I am known in the theatre for doing things that none of the other students are comfortable doing. Whenever I need to go somewhere I don't feel completely comfortable, I usually use a couple of lighting safety cables and a leather belt as a makeshift harness.
> 
> In High school, We had an crank one man lift(easyRizer?) that was prone to slipping and collapsing with people in the Bucket. When I was up in it, I jammed the ladders with a hammer. With this unit, we still moved it with people in the bucket. The outriggers were only used when we went higher than about 15 feet.




Well I guess honesty is the best possibility. I truly admire your ability to be honest about such operating procedures in light of the strong possibility that someone (like me) would get a little miffed about them.

Honestly, my main issue is with people being told or forced or convinced to do dumb and unsafe things. When people do them at their own accord and then seem to BRAG about it, then I completely support the ensuing accidents. In a school environment, though, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and place blame on your instructors for letting this stuff go on.

Seriously, man, I hope you stay safe out there. Maybe I'm the only one reading into your comments in this way, but I don't recommend bragging about these things in real life or when looking for a job. Employers don't _usually_ want to hear how you'll be the only guy on their crew, for whome their company (or their SCHOOL!) is liable, who has no problem doing completely unsafe things.

I'm amazed that an educational institution is allowing these practices. I have a feeling that if they were aware of them and their own liability, they'd put a serious stop to it.


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## jbeutt (Oct 6, 2006)

Ok. Fine. I won't bother trying to convince you that your practices, and moreover, your attitude is completely wrong.

I will however, out of good conscience, talk about the glaring problems in your methods for the sake of younger technicians on this board.

1) Just because you "feel" something is safe, in no way makes it true and is not a rational basis to establish safety. i.e. "I feel the scaffold is safer with the locks off".

2)A history without accidents is _not_ a basis on which to conclude safe procedures. Of course what you're doing seems safe _until_ you fall. The whole point of working safely is to avoid ever having an accident.

3) For someone who believes a couple of fixture safety cables and a leather belt come anywhere close to being a safe harness, I wouldn't be so quick to throw out labels of inexperience.

4)You shouldn't have to worry about hurting ANYONE! I figure you're speaking relatively, but it's hard to pick up on that stuff on the internet.

5)This isn't about individual capabilities and limits. _Everyone_ makes mistakes and the point of safety procedures and equipment is to protect people from their own physical and mental mistakes and incapabilites. It goes without saying that you don't _want_ to make a mistake and fall and even that you strive not to, but there are endless factors that you have no control over. Safety rules and equipment should apply to everyone, regardless of experience. It's incumbent upon the teacher to instill the idea of universal safety precautions (PRE meaning _before_). Experience does not make you less fallible. 

I think this issue is being hacked to death. Mostly by me and my endless use of italics. At this point, the safety harness issue seems the most legitimate and discussable and unless someone has a contrary view on the importance and neccesity of safety in this industry, we ought to stick to discussing that. I expect this sort of thing to go without saying, but unfortunately this sort of thing is far too prevelant.


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## JSFox (Oct 6, 2006)

Dustincoc said:


> 5. When the teacher first came to the school and for the first few months, he pushed a safety first position. He finally gave up when he realized that he was getting nowhere. "Experienced" tech's like me as *slightly* less likely to have an accident in a dangerous situation for 2 reasons.
> 1. The are less nervous because they are used to the risk level
> 2. They know what they are doing so they will be in a risky position for a shorter time.


I have to agree with J on this one. Both you and your instructor raise serious concerns about the theatre program at Niagra University. You my friend are not experienced. You are seriously immature and need to grow up before you hurt yourself or someone else. Fortunately for future students at Niagra the administration can read what you've posted and take appropriate action.

Some things all of us need to keep in mind. There is NO production worth someone's life or limb. "By golly I got that light fixed, it sure was worth spending the rest of my life as a quadraplegic to see that show go on." is nothing to be proud of. In more than a few incidents over the years the person who's been hurt was not the one taking the risk, but someone else either standing on the deck, or trying to help the stupid risk taker. To extend that one measure further, it's inconsiderate to your friends and family to take stupid risks. You may be dead, in heaven (or hell?), or comatose. Your friends and family then are the ones who suffer in loosing you. 

How many people have been hurt taking stupid risks because they saw others doing it and didn't want to feel looked down upon because they wouldn't? Peer pressure is an amazingly strong force, particularly in younger folks like our friend here.

Theatre and the entertainment industry has enough risk when we follow ALL of the rules. When someone is hurt or killed doing something stupid we all bear responsibility for that in the example that we set. 

Fortunately the vast majority on here know all of this. If I am out of line I'll stand corrected.

Off my soapbox now...


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## leistico (Oct 6, 2006)

This brings up another possible question...

Sometimes, at a community theatre I work with, I'll be the only one there in the building whenever I'm needing to adjust lights or hang or whathaveyou. We don't have a "genie" per se, but a "hi-jacker"--a sort of Genie-ish old decrepit thing that you position, hinge the cage upward (it folds down to be able to be rolled through a doorway), position the outriggers, hand-crank it to height, then climb up steps to the ladder section, up the ladder and into the cage. Totally manual.

Question is--when working on a high-lift of this sort (hi-jacker, genie) would you feel safe working on your own, or do you usually have someone else there as a "spotter", in case something happens?


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## jbeutt (Oct 6, 2006)

At the risk of becoming the guru of noninformational safety rants, I think the obvious answer is COME ON!!!.

I really think I'm a nice person, but seriously, this is a fairly self explanitory question. Especially given the qualifier "old decrepit". I mean, that's what I call my grandma and I know for a fact _she_ can't lift sh*t.

You engage in an activity that presents a considerable risk of injury in the event of accident or unforseen occurance. Why in the world would you _not_ want someone there to help in the case that something goes awry? Again, all's well until you fall. Last time I'll say this (although I haven't yet said it explicitally, but have in so many words): Hope for the best, prepare for the worst.

Personally, I try to have a "spotter" on hand as often as possible. Often, this person is not specifically assigned to watch me, but I count anyone within shouting distance as a spotter. I certainly won't do dangerous climbs or lifts if I'm alone in a facility.

Ask for help. Believe me, you quickly tune out the cruel sting of your coworkers shouting: "Baaaaby! Baaaaby!"


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## jonhirsh (Oct 6, 2006)

A freind of mine working alone in a theatre, his lift ran out of battery at its top height it was an scissor lift. He was stuck up there for 13 hours till some one found him the next day. 

JH


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## Chris15 (Oct 7, 2006)

I agree with jbeutt here. There is absolutely no reason why anyone should be working at heights alone. I mean, it doesn't really bother me who else is there, so long as if soemthing went wrong, there was someone to call an ambulance. And I think it would be safe to say that should go for other things where you stand an elevated risk, carpentry, almost anything in a theatre, etc. If for some extraordinary reason you MUST do something like that alone, then for goodness sake ring someone and let them know, and then ring them after you have finished. So that if you don't ring back they can seek help on your behalf. I believe that most universities etc. have a policy whereby any person working back late has to inform security or sign a book at reception that security can check or something along those lines.

As was said, no show is worth your life...

I strongly agree that what I have read in some of these posts is downright scary. Not one of us can afford to be lax with safety, I know that down here entertainment is second only to mining in risk as classified by Workcover (our OHSA). The danger is real. Don't think it couldn't happen to you.

Get Serious, it's not worth your life...


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## avkid (Oct 7, 2006)

jonhirsh said:


> A freind of mine working alone in a theatre, his lift ran out of battery at its top height it was an scissor lift. He was stuck up there for 13 hours till some one found him the next day.
> JH



That's one good argument for an electric lift!


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## jonhirsh (Oct 7, 2006)

It was electric what do you mean?
And basicaly if some one was there they could pull the emergancy lowering valve on the bottom.
JH


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## Footer (Oct 8, 2006)

Well now that we are on the subject of lifts, how do you guys feel about ladders? Most theatres have an A-Frame laying around, and usually that A-Frame is mounted on a caster cart of some sort. For those of you who have never road an A Frame it is an experience to say the least. Do you guys feel that all theatres should take their A-Frames out on the dock and burn them? There are many shows that I have worked on that we have to pull out the A Frame to get to a position that can not be reached by a genie due to haveing a set in the way and not haveing enough/any focus tracks (thats a whole other can of worms).


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## Chris15 (Oct 8, 2006)

I think A frames serve a purpose, but I would have thought that by its very nature, a ladder on wheels is a problem. And it should go without saying that if a ladder is a bit worse for wear and thus not completely safe, I think a match or other means of disposal to be appropriate. But make sure that the ladder is unusable before disposing of it. You don't want someone else using your unsafe ladder because they salvaged it...


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## jbeutt (Oct 8, 2006)

A pox on ladders! 

You obviously haven't worked enough 250 seat theatres with 20'-25' grids and the idea of getting a genie absolutely hilarious. Of course ladders serve a purpose, are you kidding!? It bothers me to think of an entire generation of younger technical professionals (I should have business cards with that title) who haven't had that gut fear atop a wooden ladder, swaying back and forth, hanging a 360. But alas. Now it's just shove in the outriggers and hit a button. No appreciation at all for what _others_ had to go through before all the fancy contraptions.

A-frames are dandy and personally a lot more fun than genie lifts. But I haaaate the plexi/aluminum kind. way too heavy. I like wooden A-frames with extensions. They're a dying breed though; dead actually. And yeah, a lot of them are totally dangerous.

How exactly are the wheels a problem? Just as long as you don't get pushed on them, you're fine. Well, I suppose if you're on a rake. But hopefully it becomes an issue before you've started climbing it.

-Jack


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## Footer (Oct 8, 2006)

jbeutt said:


> A pox on ladders!
> You obviously haven't worked enough 250 seat theatres with 20'-25' grids and the idea of getting a genie absolutely hilarious. Of course ladders serve a purpose, are you kidding!? It bothers me to think of an entire generation of younger technical professionals (I should have business cards with that title) who haven't had that gut fear atop a wooden ladder, swaying back and forth, hanging a 360. But alas. Now it's just shove in the outriggers and hit a button. No appreciation at all for what _others_ had to go through before all the fancy contraptions.
> A-frames are dandy and personally a lot more fun than genie lifts. But I haaaate the plexi/aluminum kind. way too heavy. I like wooden A-frames with extensions. They're a dying breed though; dead actually. And yeah, a lot of them are totally dangerous.
> How exactly are the wheels a problem? Just as long as you don't get pushed on them, you're fine. Well, I suppose if you're on a rake. But hopefully it becomes an issue before you've started climbing it.
> -Jack



I grew up on A-Frames, and for most focuses I prefer them because you dont have to deal with shooting through the bucket. Personaly though, I am not crazy about going up on the extention and wraping my legs around it, but it can be a bit of a thrill. I have rode some rather loose ones and thats not the most fun, and I will agree that the fiberglass ones are nice when they are up, but not so much to get them up. The nice thing about the caster carts is that you don't have to worry about stretching the ladder out by draggin it accross the deck.


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## Chris15 (Oct 8, 2006)

The only reason I thought ladders on wheels to be potentially problematic is that enough force would get them moving, which could be unexpected if you're at the top... But I guess so long as you know what you are doing, they would be reasonably safe.


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## jbeutt (Oct 8, 2006)

It's never been a problem for me. 
It's probably a combination of the fact that there's a good deal of downward force and that the casters really aren't that great. Also, if you were to _try_ to get it moving from up top, you'd really just be torquing the ladder and no real force would apply. That isn't to say that someone else couldn't get you going pretty easily.


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## soundlight (Oct 8, 2006)

Slightly safer than the A-frame, the "cherry picker." The welded-metal-tube rectangle at the bottom, with wheels, and the 20-foot ladder that flips up. It has legs that flip out from the sides, but they are rather impractical when you're working between seats and the leg lands in a seat...

I used one of those suckers to focus 30-year-old, shutters-rusted-together, focus-knob-is-shot century 10x12's at my high school. My drama teacher would always stare up at me the whole time looking very, very, very scared...probably more scared than me. The best part about this thing is the "bucket" in which you stand. 1/4" thick metal plate that is somehow attached to the ladder bit, and you have to kinda push yourself up under the restraining bars to even get in the bucket. It's a true work of art in itself.


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## JSFox (Oct 8, 2006)

I wish the 2 theatre's I'm currently working in had A's. For whatever reason I feel safer on top of an A (in good condition) with one leg wrapped over the top rung than on a genie. One that I used had a one-step push down thing to get it up on its wheels or down on it's feet. Me up top, someone on the bottom, lots of focusing gett'n done.

Wonder what the osha boys would think about pushing a man'd A vs a man'd genie?


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## Chris15 (Oct 9, 2006)

soundlight said:


> Slightly safer than the A-frame, the "cherry picker." The welded-metal-tube rectangle at the bottom, with wheels, and the 20-foot ladder that flips up. It has legs that flip out from the sides, but they are rather impractical when you're working between seats and the leg lands in a seat...
> I used one of those suckers to focus 30-year-old, shutters-rusted-together, focus-knob-is-shot century 10x12's at my high school. My drama teacher would always stare up at me the whole time looking very, very, very scared...probably more scared than me. The best part about this thing is the "bucket" in which you stand. 1/4" thick metal plate that is somehow attached to the ladder bit, and you have to kinda push yourself up under the restraining bars to even get in the bucket. It's a true work of art in itself.



One of the other schools near us has one of them. Their's has an extension ladder, as in the bucket is at teh top of an extendable ladder. Does yours?


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## Dustincoc (Oct 9, 2006)

J a question for you, how's a ladder on wheels safer than a scaffold on wheels?


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## Chris15 (Oct 9, 2006)

Dustincoc said:


> J a question for you, how's a ladder on wheels safer than a scaffold on wheels?



I'd have said it wasn't. A scaffold is as best I understand it, designed to be put on wheels. Very few ladders are. Scaffolding tends to be better braced and there are rules on safe ratios of height to width etc. to keep it stable.

Hope that helps.


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## Dustincoc (Oct 9, 2006)

The question was actually for jbeutt, regarding our little "discussion" the other night. Guess I could have been a little clearer.


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## Chris15 (Oct 9, 2006)

Apologies then for the intrusion.


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## Dustincoc (Oct 9, 2006)

No apologies necessary.

jbeutt and I had a discussion a few days ago in this post about not using wheel locks an a scaffold and pushing a maned scaffold around among other things.


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## jbeutt (Oct 9, 2006)

It might seem odd I don't remember that, but it's almost 3 am and I just got back from overseeing a club show. What's rrrreally weird is that I'm not going to bother going back to check. If I contradict myself, so be it. Consistancy is the hobgoblin of small minds.

It really isn't the _wheels_ themselves that are an issue. On a level surface, with a significant downward force, wheels don't really impact the stability of the unit in the sense we're talking about. In the same way, I think caster locks are slightly superfluous from a theoretical standpoint. Practically though, they can't hurt. If I seemed to imply that one was safer than the other, I apologize. Also, the bracing of a scaffold doesn't really matter in the scenario we're talking about. We aren't talking about structural stability, but...someone fill this in for me, please...I guess...topple stability? Geeze, it is late. If one is safer than the other, I'd imagine it's a ladder because it's top weight is centered, whereas a scaffold, with a relatively similar footprint to an a-frame on wheels, has that top load distributed. That conclusion doesn't have my stamp of approval yet, though. Maybe others would like to weigh in on this specific issue. I say ladder. 

So it's a matter of height vs. footprint and weight distribution.

It all comes back to what we were talking about before and the matter of _pushing_ any of these units with significant top loading (i.e. a person). Your dynamics are toootally thrown off when you apply a force at the bottom. It just isn't the same unit, from a physics standpoint. I just can't believe there are people out there who totally ignore this, and I'm talking the pro world. It's a matter of going through the motions and actually knowing, down to the physics level what you're doing. It's like throwing a gel up to get a color, but having no understanding of _what_ is happening to the light when you do that. That sort of lack of understanding has a way of catching up to a person. It has to me many a time.

From single man, hydraulic bucket lift to a-frame ladder to rolling scaffold, you have to be aware that none are going to be very safe to push around. I personally don't go around doing the math on this to ensure its safety, though. Often it's a visual or gut ability to gauge it. And my gut almost always says don't. A genie lift with or without outriggers has a fairly small footprint, especially in proportion to a well extended lift and I never push that. A-Frame ladder and scaffold are safer. With both it cannot hurt to throw some sandbags at the base, just to increase your safety margin. Remember, in rigging, we use a 5-7x loading factor. There's no reason not to apply this methodology to the actual working environment. Plus, think of the practicality. 

Also, scaffold is all different as are ladders, so to take a dogmatic approach is foolish. If you want to do a force diagram and acceleration calculations, all the better, but the smarter way is to simply not try and decrease load-in time by being unsafe.


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## jwl868 (Oct 9, 2006)

Someone asked about moving a ladder when someone is on it. Clearly NO:

40 CFR 1926.1053 Ladders.
…
(b) Use. The following requirements apply to the use of all ladders, including job-made ladders, except as otherwise indicated:
…
(11) Ladders shall not be moved, shifted, or extended while occupied.

Ladder information is in both 40 CFR 1910.21 to 1910.30 (Subpart D – Walking-working surfaces) and 40 CFR 1926.1050 through 1926.1060 (Subpart X – Stairways and Ladders)

A general ladder safety publication:
http://www.osha.gov/Publications/osha3124.pdf

Theater work is addressed by two sets of US OSHA regulations:
40 CFR 1926 - Safety and Regulations for Construction
40 CFR 1910 - Occupational Safety and Health Standards 

Theater work falls into both categories, depending on what is going on. Day to day activities are under 1910. Building a set would be 1926. Other activities (say, hanging lights), I really do not know, nor have I looked more closely at the rules and law. If you can’t find something in 1910, then check 1926. 

There is overlap between 1910 and 1926, and occasionally differences, although the differences are a matter of degree and sometimes detail, rather than allowing actions under one but not the other. Perhaps the best example of a difference is that Fall protection regulations under 1926 (construction) start at 10 feet, but similar regulations under 1910 start at 6 feet.


Joe


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## egorleski (Oct 9, 2006)

Heres my ten cents on the issue. I think this comes down to center of mass. When a genie lift is made, there are obviously complex formulas and all sorts of math to be able to have a bucket of some substantial mass high up in the air without it toppeling. This is probably partialy why you will not see small lightweight genies. The smallest bucket genie i could find quickly on their website goes 11.5 feet in the air and yet it weighs 1600 lbs. What this is doing is making it so that even though a person, or 500 lbs, going 11.5 ft in the air will not greatly impact the center of mass. The lower the center of mass the harder it will be to make the genie topple over. By not using the outriggers or by raising the genie onto some wheel contraption you will dramaticaly change the center of mass and many other forces as well. The ladder is deisnged such that you are greatly altering the center of mass but it distributes out through the framework of the ladder so i would imagine that putting it in a box with casters would be alright because the force required to make it move horizontaly would be great and because the casters and wooden box would transfer the weight. Ill ask the physics teacher for his oppinion when i see him next.


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## JSFox (Oct 10, 2006)

There are (or were) some A-frames with mfr provided locking wheelsets that I believe were designed to be wheeled while manned. One actually had a mfr's notice on the side something to the effect of "Do not move or set in motion when personnel are higher than 16 feet. Always keep on a flat smooth surface."


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