# Splitting signals for monitors



## kovacika (Dec 12, 2006)

I was wondering how I might be able to split signals to go to a monitor board, and front of house. I have worked with mixers that had this function built in (Midas, Yamaha) but this is for my personal sound system with boards not quite as full featured as the aforementioned. I need to split 10 xlr lines, the rest can go straight to FOH. If anyone has any suggestions I would be very pleased to hear any and all.


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## sound_nerd (Dec 12, 2006)

A proper split snake, or use the direct outs....otherwise I'm at a loss for ideas. But it's also late at night after a long load out day.


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## kovacika (Dec 12, 2006)

Thats what i thought, but im kinda hoping theres a short cut because i dont have a grand or two to drop on a splitter snake.


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## Chris15 (Dec 12, 2006)

From memory, the considered opinion is that for just a 1:2 split, you can normally get away with a simple passive split. For more than that you need transformers and / or active splits. Basically, it is a case of wire two male to a single female = Y split. One goes to FOH, the other to monitors. But beware that in this case, I seem to recall that the settings on one console can have an effect on the other. You also need to make sure that only one of the consoles supplies phantom to the lines. If you can't disable the phantom on one of them, a transformer may be neccessary. Or you could add a capacitor into the signal lines of one of the splits to block the DC. Probably it would be best to feed all phantom from FOH rather than monitors for the sake of consistency.

Just some food for thought.


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## kovacika (Dec 12, 2006)

Does anyone know how the consoles will effect each other? That seems like a kind of scary thought. Also is it possible that the phantom power could damage the preamps on one of the consoles when just using a simple y adapter?


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## Chris15 (Dec 12, 2006)

Thinking more about it, I may have been mistaken. I have a nagging doubt that the settings affecting one another was to do with digital consoles using a single set of preamps to feeed both FOH & monitor and the gain adjustment on the preamp from one console will obviously affect the other.

Not sure what effect the phantom would have. To be safe rather than sorry, put a capacitor in each of the audio lines (so both pin 2 & 3 of each channel) on the feed to the console not sending out the phantom. That will block the DC whilst allowing the audio to pass.


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## kovacika (Dec 12, 2006)

What capacitor specs would i be looking at?


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## audioslavematt (Dec 12, 2006)

http://srforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/t/18806/15727/


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## SHARYNF (Dec 12, 2006)

All sorts of myths on this topic
Here is my take on it.You can take you existing stage box, open it up, wire in another multi cable to each of the xlr, and add a ground lift for all the feeds to the monitor mixer. Some of the expensive transformer units have individual ground lifts, but 

IMO lifting all the ground for the monitor works for just about all cases.

A transformer does NOT change the load the mic sees, but in todays world, for a two way split, not a problem. 
One console does NOT affect the other (other than it is a good idea to make sure that both are on the same power source.

Some digital splitters do have a problem in that they place the split after the preamps, and so if you adjust the trim on the input preamp it affects all signals fed from it.

If you have the budget wire in a mass connector, this way if you are not using the split you don't have the open cables that would have gone to the monitor connected to the mic inputs.

Phantom power is not a problem, a system that can feed phantom power can accept phantom power. It is typically to feed phantom from the foh since you may not split all inputs to the monitor 

It works great, makes monitor mixing much easier, also this is how a lot of recording set ups are done

I would say that if you need to have a three way split say for monitors and recording then iso transformers are best since splitting the mic signal three ways can be a problem. 

Using the direct outs can be done, but IMO is not worth the effort since you then have to feed the directs back via a snake to the monitor console on stage (for recording where the recorder is by the FOH it can and does work and is another way to have the split for monitors and the direct out for recording)

Sharyn


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## Scooter (Dec 12, 2006)

so, here's my take on all this for the cheapest version. you use a Female to two Male XLR adapter like the one shown below and plug the female end to the mic, a male end to the monitor board, and the other male end to the foh board? i think this would work, please correct me if i am wrong.


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## mbenonis (Dec 13, 2006)

Here's a white paper written by Jim Brown, a well-known audio engineer who is considered an expert in many areas related to sound installations. It describes the many ways to split an audio signal, and what kind of split to use when.

http://www.audiosystemsgroup.com/Mic_Splitters.pdf


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## SHARYNF (Dec 13, 2006)

It works but it usually is not practical. The usual purpose of a monitor mixer is obviously for individual control of the monitor mix but almost as important is to move the function to the stage area and not co locate it at the FOH position.

SO, typically the easiest way is as I said to wire in a connection on your stage box. An alternative is to make up a stage box that is a series of female xlr to dual male xlr's and use jumper cables to connect to your main snake, but this adds a lot of cost. IMO the simplest and easiest is to wire in a multi cable, run it to your monitor position and have just added xlr males to connect to your monitor mixer. As the white paper talks about, having a way to lift the shield (pin 1) on the monitor end is a good idea. ALSO IMO in the type of systems people on this board are likely to be involved in, running the FOH and Monitor from the same power source resolves a lot of the pin 1 issues

Sharyn


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## stjc15 (Dec 13, 2006)

I have heard that splitting a signal can effect the impedence of the mic. Is this true?


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## SHARYNF (Dec 13, 2006)

It does not change the impedance of the mic, but it changes the impedance load the mic sees. With a two way split it is not an issue

Sharyn


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## kovacika (Dec 13, 2006)

I like the idea of adding a mult to my existing snake but wondering if anyone had tips on soldering in close quarters like that. Ive always been a bit of a hack with solder, it gets done but it doesnt look pretty and probably took longer than it needed to.


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## SHARYNF (Dec 13, 2006)

Most of the multi's are pin based some are crimp and some are solder. Get your self a decent quality (weller for instance) with a fine tip, and practice. ;-)
most people starting out, use too big an iron, heat the wrong thing, and don't use a small clip to hold the work

Sharyn


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## JSFox (Dec 14, 2006)

If you don't use a proper splitter keep an AC ground lift handy for your monitor board (and make sure your FOH board is properly grounded).

_*Note from Andy:* This is neither safe, nor legal. There are right ways to fix a buzz problem. This is NOT, I repeat NOT it. 3-to-2 pin AC adapters are not AC ground lifts. They are ground _adapters_, intended to allow you to connect the ground pin of a 3-pin connector to the screw of a 2-pin outlet, _provided that said screw is connected to metal conduit and thus, eventually, to ground.


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## SHARYNF (Dec 14, 2006)

This is NOT recommended, especially on a monitor board that is connected to the mics that the artist is going to be holding in their hands. this is how people can get hurt.

Your ground lift should be on the INPUT side NOT the ac side, from an audio side of things lifting the ground on the input will have the same effect but not be dangerous. Lifting AC ground on sound equipment if very very dangerous especially when it is on the mic or instrument side of things. People have gotten really hurt based on a problem with say a guitar amp that had a bad ground system and fed ac voltage into the system, back to someone holding a mic in their hand etc.

I do recommend running the monitor and the FOH on the same power connection/ground. Even though you would think different, in many pro festival setups, you wind up running a power cord back to the FOH system along side of the main audio snake, and do NOT have any problems, as long as all the feeds in the snake are balanced. 

Sharyn


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## silvrwolf (Dec 14, 2006)

A cheap and highly un ethical way to split an audio signal for monitors or what ever is to use the channel insert jacks on your main boared as just an output. For example, on the main console if you take a TS plug (mono) and insert the plug partially into the first click of a channel insert jack, then you get a direct out to send to the monitor console. Then you take the other end of the cable and plug it into a line input on your soon to be monitor console. This is an ok idea it will allow you to get a direct channel out without phantom problems but it will probally lead you to a world of frustration due to ground loops and hum. It never hurts to try though. See the picture if you get confused about not fully plugging in the cord.


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## mbenonis (Dec 14, 2006)

SHARYNF said:


> This is NOT recommended, especially on a monitor board that is connected to the mics that the artist is going to be holding in their hands. this is how people can get hurt.



I second Sharyn's advice. NEVER use an AC ground lift, ever! It's just not safe.


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## SHARYNF (Dec 14, 2006)

Here is the problem with the plug a TS jack into the insert:

This works for a recording setup that is close to the mixer, Mackie used this back in the days of Adats etc, the had Line in's and it was a quick and dirty way to go.

Monitors are different;
First of all, putting the Monitor console at the FOH position is not a good idea, and if you try to run those first click TS connectors back to a mixer at Stage, you are running long lines of UNBALANCED audio, you are just asking for hum problems etc etc.

You would be far far better off with a simple split at the mic source or the stage box.
Sharyn


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## silvrwolf (Dec 15, 2006)

Ya, I know this is a bad idea. I just posted it as a cheap half a** alternitive. Its a horrible setup but it could work in an emergency.


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## jacobbiljo (Dec 22, 2006)

For another way to add a splitter thats is a bit more expensive then just adding another multi cable inside the snake box but is cleaner looking and is more organized then simple splitter cables, you could buy a simple metal male to female xlr adapter which is basically two plugs in one metal body. then drill a hole in the side, add a grommet and slide in another xlr cable then solder that to the leads inside the adaptor. To keep the added cable from sliding out, simple knot the cable once it is passed through the grommet. This might be better for those who are afraid to touch there expensive snake and if you screw up some how, since each channel's adaptor would be seperate, the losses would be far less then damaging your snake box. Another idea would be to permanently lift the ground by not connecting that wire but if you wished to have a bonded ground you could just change the adaptor over to a simple splitter cable. 
The picture is actually a dmx adaptor but it uses the same adaptor body.

Havent actually created this but how does that sound?


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## Chris15 (Dec 23, 2006)

The idea seems like a reasonable one, but I do wonder what advantage it would have over a more conventional 3 XLR connector Y split. I believe that Neutrik have a modular setup that would allow for such a device to be made, it would be a male XLR, a female XLR and a body. Beware of anything premade with the same connector both ends (but opposit genders). The chances of it being wired straight through are minimal. It will more than likely be either a phase (sorry, polarity) reverser, a pad or a ground lift. Otherwise what point is there in 2 extra onnectors? The other thing to consider is that within such an adaptor housing, there ain't a whole lot of room. So you might have troubles wiring it and even more so tying to put some sort of strain relief on it (be it a knot, a cable tie or whatever to stop the cable from pulling out.)

So it should be possible, but what benefit does it bring?


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## jacobbiljo (Dec 23, 2006)

i guess im a person who likes my cable runs REALLY neat and it just seams cleaner looking then y splitts and is better for tracing cable runs because the plug into that channel on the snake is still in the same location just 3 inches up and all the split off cables can be bundled together nicely with some heat shrink, taking up less room then a whole bunch of y splits laying on the stage. As for room inside the adaptor, since all the connectors can be pulled away from the body, the soldering is done in the open and then the thing can be assembled, only having to tuck the wires back inside. Im not sure where i saw it but there was an electronics supplier who sold these adaptors with a described use that was basically this, a home made adaptor.


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## SHARYNF (Dec 24, 2006)

There is one big problem with the drilled adapter design, there is no easy way of providing a strain relief for the split cable, so you are very likely to have the split cable pulled and the inside 22awg wires detached. In addition with a split it usually is a good idea to have a ground lift. 

Another setup that is pretty common is to build a split box, you can actually order the stage boxes from a number of suppliers pre drilled etc, and you just mount the connectors, they also will sell you short fans if you want also.

I like using the mass connector so if I don't use the split I can remove it. A neat way to set up your stage box setup is to put it in a rack mount, neatens up things quite a bit.

Sharyn


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## kovacika (Dec 26, 2006)

I like the idea of the predrilled boxes, where might i go about getting one of those? I also have used mass connectors in the past and was wondering where I could get a hold of some. I was also wondering how difficult it is to wire them, being that all the pins are in relatively close proximity to one another.


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## SHARYNF (Dec 26, 2006)

Look at
http://www.markertek.com/SearchProduct.asp?item=NK27-22C+34&off=0&sort=prod for the mass connector

and

http://www.markertek.com/SearchProduct.asp?item=BB06PP&off=11&sort=prod

for the stage box, you would also need strain relief 

It is not all that hard to solder them up since most of them have the pins that slide out you solder them, use heat shrink for electrical isolation and then side the connector back OR Some you just work carefully from one side to the other again using heat shrink and solder first, slide the heat shrink down and then shrink



Sharyn


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## TimmyP1955 (Dec 31, 2006)

A couple of you may have been speaking of a gadget like this?: http://www.padrick.net/LiveSound/SpecialMicWye.htm


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## kingfisher1 (Dec 31, 2006)

do you need teh headphone jacke. you could split that and send it to your monitor board


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## kovacika (Jan 12, 2007)

Sharyn- I just got the money to build the split, but the links to the site have changed. They now direct me to BNC connectors, which I know arent correct. I did some searching and found mass connectors, but cant seem to find matching male and female connectors.
Canare NK27 Pin Circular Male Cable Mount Connect -
http://www.markertek.com/Product.as...ACONNECT&prodClass=MASSCON&mfg=&search=0&off=
Hirose HR10-7P-6P Circular Connector-
http://www.markertek.com/Product.as...ACONNECT&prodClass=MASSCON&mfg=&search=0&off=


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## SHARYNF (Jan 12, 2007)

Call canare directly at 818-365-2446 and get the product numbers, and availability, then go to marketech etc.

Whirlwind had a much more expensive solution
http://www.whirlwindusa.com/multi012.html

I think the carare will work just fine, it does tie all the shields together, but that is what I do n the split snake anyway

Sharyn


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