# Flying Mackie SRM-450s



## w3st0n21 (Dec 20, 2009)

so i need to fly 2 Mackie SRM-450s out of my catwalk for a show (we are running a band, and our current speakers cant handle it). so i need to know the best way to do this at a relativly cheat price. any ideas?


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## mstaylor (Dec 20, 2009)

A touchy subject here. Rigging advice is generally not given here because we have no idea to your abilities or experience. Also we don't know your local conditions or house rules. For instance in my building we can't hang anything from the catwalk period. All I can say and stay in the board rules is that there are two fly points on top of the speaker. I Googled the speaker to find that out. Check local companies or an AI local for a rigger to give you local advice.


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## w3st0n21 (Dec 20, 2009)

Yea, i wasnt sure if this would be a question allowed to be answered or not. thanks for the advice


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## avkid (Dec 21, 2009)

Consult the product manual.
Mackie Tech Support - Manuals


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## SHARYNF (Dec 21, 2009)

Allen products has a rigging kit that you can purchase for the srm450/s it is a THREE point system with two on the top and one on the lower rear for positioning.
DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES attempt any rigging using the handles.

Pro Audio Gear: Allen Products RK-M10-18X Rigging Kit for SRM450 and C300

Sharyn


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## w3st0n21 (Dec 21, 2009)

SHARYNF said:


> Allen products has a rigging kit that you can purchase for the srm450/s it is a THREE point system with two on the top and one on the lower rear for positioning.
> DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES attempt any rigging using the handles.
> 
> Pro Audio Gear: Allen Products RK-M10-18X Rigging Kit for SRM450 and C300
> ...



wasnt planning on it, i was just curious if there was a way to do what the kit does for not as much $$$


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## Chris15 (Dec 21, 2009)

It concerns me to read cheap and flying together...

Are you willing to compromise the safety of those who will pass below and leave yourself open to legal liability just to save a few bucks?


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## Footer (Dec 21, 2009)

Fly kits are expensive. Motors are expensive. Rated hardware is expensive. Rated chain is expensive. Wire rope is expensive. Swagging sleeves and swagging tools are expensive. 

Lawsuits are more expensive.


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## metti (Dec 22, 2009)

You should really consider whether or not you NEED to fly these speakers. If the $140 total cost of those fly kits was too much for you, the cost of buying all the necessary rated hardware and hiring someone who actually knows what they are doing to do the hang is going to be waaaay to much for you. I hate to be a negative nelly but I would hate even more for you and/or members of your audience to be dead dannys. If you haven't done this before (and obviously you haven't) now is NOT the time to start. If you guys really need these speakers flown than you should figure out how to pay for a real local rigger to come do it otherwise there is a decent chance you will have to be calling up your real local ambulance and real local lawyers. And trust me, if I got hurt by a falling speaker I would be suing for a hell of a lot more than what it would have cost to actually hang the speaker right to begin with.


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## jkowtko (Dec 22, 2009)

This is always such a sore spot on these forums -- was there a huge incident in the past due to someone's comments on an on-line forum?

Anyway, the Mackie SRM450 manual states on p.11-Rigging, that M10 eyebolts are the appropriate hardware for use in the rigging mounts on the speaker. 

The manual also states that your rigging hardware, and the supporting structure, should be able to handle at least five times the load limit. These speakers weigh 50lb each (the v2's weigh 40lbs) according to the manual. You do the math.

I won't explicitly suggest anything else. But, like anything else you might hang from the ceiling -- chandelier, wall sconce, large mirror, theatrical lighting fixtures, set rigging, etc -- whoever installs it generally will take the responsibility and liability should something go wrong. So if you've never hung a heavy light fixture from the ceiling, you might want to get some help with these speakers. Just be smart about it.

-- John


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## w3st0n21 (Dec 22, 2009)

I would be flying them from the ceiling truss, and im pretty confident that can hold a LOT more than 50 lbs and probably a lot more than 250 lbs as well.


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## Footer (Dec 22, 2009)

jkowtko said:


> This is always such a sore spot on these forums -- was there a huge incident in the past due to someone's comments on an on-line forum?
> 
> Anyway, the Mackie SRM450 manual states on p.11-Rigging, that M10 eyebolts are the appropriate hardware for use in the rigging mounts on the speaker.
> 
> ...



The manaul simply tells you where the rigging points are on the speaker. For anything beyond that, the manual states to have a qualified rigger hang the speaker. 

Simply put, no manual is going to tell you how to pull a build a bridle or drop a point. Every venue is different, there is no way for us to tell you how to hang this speaker without seeing the venue is person. Added to that, without knowing the working load of what you have above your ceiling there is no way for us to tell you if the ceiling can even hold it. If you get the right person in there, they should be able to help you in an hour or two. Your ceiling might look strong and it might be able to easily take the load, but you are going to be introducing a load with horizontal force and vibration.


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## metti (Dec 22, 2009)

Remind me to avoid your venue. I'm too young to die under a falling Mackie.


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## Studio (Dec 22, 2009)

Could you possible have them on the ground solving all problems including both time and $$$?


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## w3st0n21 (Dec 22, 2009)

Studio said:


> Could you possible have them on the ground solving all problems including both time and $$$?



that was the original thought, but in our auditorium there isnt really a good place to put them. thus the question should i hang them and have good placement and spend some money, or not hang them, have crappy placement, and keep money.


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## Dover (Dec 22, 2009)

Rigging is like surgery, it is not the place you want to cut corners and try to save money. I have not seen a lot of people fly a temporary system this small. Usually the size of the crowd does not justify the cost. In most cases putting the 450s on speaker stands will yield a satisfactory result given the size of the crowd that 2 450s will reasonably cover. The last time I flew 450s we had 10 of them in the air and the rigging hardware cost almost as much as the speakers themselves. 

Good Luck,
Dover


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## Chris15 (Dec 24, 2009)

w3st0n21 said:


> I would be flying them from the ceiling truss, and im pretty confident that can hold a LOT more than 50 lbs and probably a lot more than 250 lbs as well.



So now you're a qualified structural engineer?

As to why this is a sore point, within Australia, one needs to hold a rigger's licence to perform the tasks you are talking about doing. If the government have thought it high enough risk to require licencing, then there is no way you can explain it clearly using text and a half duplex at best communication method.

Do you not owe it to your patrons, staff, etc. to not willingly compromise their safety for the sake of a few bucks? Last week I saw a safety cable perform it's job. That was on an instrument that I understand was properly rigged. If you don't understand enough of the science behind rigging then you can miss something that may be fatal. If that safety had failed, I may not be here to tell the story given I was micing an orchestra underneath...
Even a Tupperware speaker is heavier than the 2K Fresnel in question.

Ultimately it's your head on the chopping block if it fails and someone is injured. How does the cost of proper rigging compare to the initial consultation fee with your lawyer when you get sued?


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## SHARYNF (Dec 24, 2009)

I think we make a mistake when we attack someone who is attempting to make some decisions and decide on the best course of action. I have seen this this time and again, and the result instead of educating the person simply makes them ignore us

SO:

Here are the issues re rigging your mackies

First off, the eye bolts that you use need to be quality forged and rated, not the cheap foreign imports that you find at your local HD or where ever. Reason is that cheap eye bolts have no quality control may have forging defects and fail.

It is obvious when you think about it but not obvious at first, that the entire weight of the item you are attaching to is supported by the THREADS, this is not a situation where you have a pin with a post that is thru mounted to something, but rather where it is the treads on the bolt into the theaded housing in the speaker that is carrying the weight, SO this is really why you need to make SURE only Rated Eye bolts are used, and why they are expensive. Forged Bolts are essential, not some cheap casting.

The next issue is tightening, again, obvious after the fact but not obvious at first, that you need to HAND tighten them, NOT over torque them with a wrench. This is the part that is many times missed, someone thinks that the tighter the better but in fact this is the cause of stress failure of the THREADS. 

The next issue is the angle of the force being placed on the eyebolt. The bolt will have a rating based on an ANGLE, and this rating is reduced as the angle is increased, and usually NEVER rated for use at over 45-90 degrees

The next issue is the attaching hardware, again must be rated and typically is either an anchor shackle or a threaded chain connector or a carabiner. Again quality is the issue, there is a lot of junk sold on Ebay that is good for holding your keys to your belt look to look cool but would be crazy to use for this type of application.

Then there is the issue of what material to use are you using air craft cable, or chain. IMO Chain that is rated has far less issues. Using Air Craft Cable you have an entirely different set of issues re thimble attachment etc

Then there is the issue of loading on the truss, how you attach to the truss etc.

So IMO it is best to get someone who is experienced, one in how to do it but also WHAT MATERIALS To use, and how to use them. 

Anything that is hung needs to be inspected at least once a year to determine if it is still safe, again you need someone who knows what to look for ie, have the eye bolts started to loosen etc.

People tend to get very cautious and that is a good thing, but I do wonder how many times they have walked under a building lighting fixture and never thought to worry if it was simply being held in by some sheet rock screws. 

So bottom line is that there are very good reasons why the rigging kits cost a lot, the quality of the components is very important 

Sharyn


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## Les (Dec 24, 2009)

SHARYNF said:


> Anything that is hung needs to be inspected at least once a year...
> Sharyn



This makes me wonder... Why isn't there this much diligence when it comes to more common installs, such as gymnasium HID lights? They are typically hung by a cast hook with a wire spring which is designed to keep the fixture from unhooking by being rocked or tilted, but this is hardly as cautious as we are with theatrical lighting, and it is very likely for a large amount of people to be under a gym light. Arguably, a falling gym light (maybe hit by a wayward basketball) is more likely to kill someone than a falling theatrical light. Sometimes there are safety chains on gym lights, but they aren't as substantial as a safety cable, and they're usually just hooked to the roof truss (no spring clip). Gym lights typically weigh in at 15-20 lbs. Us theatre techs are constantly double-checking our own lighting fixtures, but do we think twice before walking into a gymnasium? Are those fixtures regularly inspected? They could be, during lamp changes, but a typical 400w Metal Halide lamp will last at least 5 years. 

This ties in with this next quote, which I wholeheartedly agree with: 


SHARYNF said:


> People tend to get very cautious and that is a good thing, but I do wonder how many times they have walked under a building lighting fixture and never thought to worry if it was simply being held in by some sheet rock screws.
> Sharyn



That's exactly what I mean. Even fluorescent troffers (commonly found in grid ceilings above classrooms) are hung by not much more than four wire suspension points, one on each corner. No fancy crimps or anything like that. The wire loops through a +/- 20 gauge tab on the corner of the fixture and is "locked" into place by twisting it around itself a few times. How about your ceiling fan? Hope it's hung from a fan-rated junction box!

I just wish the rest of the world was as cautious as we are.


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## museav (Dec 26, 2009)

SHARYNF said:


> I think we make a mistake when we attack someone who is attempting to make some decisions and decide on the best course of action. I have seen this this time and again, and the result instead of educating the person simply makes them ignore us


I understand your point but the best place to get training and education on rigging is probably not in an online forum. Responses and input can come from anyone including those with relatively or totally unknown backgrounds and many people asking for help, some of whom may only come here to get an answer to a specific question, might have difficulty understanding the qualifications of the responders and the validity of the responses. I see it all the time on forums, multiple questionable if not erroneous responses given by people of unknown qualifications responding based on limited information that can be difficult for some to differntiate from the well informed and well formed responses.

There are also potential issues beyond technical ones. What is the role and responsibility of the person asking? Who would be performing the installation? What are the venue's/management's/administration's views regarding such work including whether it should be performed, who can/should perform it, liability insurance, etc.?

I've seen numerous situations where the issue was not with the rigging hardware used to attached to the speaker, but rather with some of the issues that Sharyn noted such as the angle of the load to the eyebolt or the attachment to structure. Rigging is one of those areas where getting it partially or even mostly right still means it's wrong.

Details such as initially saying "i need to fly 2 Mackie SRM-450s out of my catwalk for a show" but then later saying "I would be flying them from the ceiling truss" and the request to look for cheap solutions rather than those recommended by the manufacturer also do not instill a great deal of confidence in the care and attention to detail that would be applied.



I'm curious as to what is driving the whole idea. What leads you to believe that two SRM-450 speakers hung from the catwalk will be a significant improvement? How do you plan to get power and signal to these speakers? How do you plan to tie them into the existing system? Maybe you have this all thought out but it seems like there would be several other aspects to consider.


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## fx120 (Dec 27, 2009)

Another problem you're going to run into as one other poster brought up was signal and electrical to power the speakers once and if you get them in the air. Once they're flown, a fire inspector will consider them permanently installed and will want to see proper wiring, meaning no extension cables, and properly installed low voltage cabling. 

None of this is cheap, there is no "cheap" way to permanently install speakers. My only advice is to consult with a local installer that has experience with rigging and have them handle the wiring. I would estimate that the cost will be somewhere between $600 and $1000.


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