# Call "911" or not...



## reggie98 (May 16, 2009)

How would react in the following situation.
You are standing in a small playhouse, organized as a non-profit. You ook over your head and notice that the lighting fixture seems to be wired with an asbestos whip. You look around further and see more evidence of asbestos wiring. You make mention of this situation to the "person in charge", he replies that he's aware of it, but didn't think it was a problem. Do you: keep silent and walk away; call the local Health Department; call Electrical inspector?


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## MNBallet (May 16, 2009)

If you're talking just the 3' wiring comming from the light, you shouldn't worry, just wear gloves (most of us do for focus anyways,) and wash your hands. You're not chewing on the wires. If you're really concerned, you could look into jackets to cover them up. Or do the research in what it would cost to rewire all the inventory. In reality, since this place is a "non-profit" they don't have any money and a call to anybody will result in a shut down and the theater could be closed for weeks. There are still plenty of buildings that have abestos insulation around pipes that are far more dangerous than what's wrapped around the wires. 
Money is tight everywhere, so your options are: 1, take precautions (gloves, wash hands) 2: come up with the money to rewire or get jackets, (or whole new inventory: yea right!) 3: risk the theater closing and make a phone call.


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## mrb (May 16, 2009)

MNBallet said:


> If you're talking just the 3' wiring comming from the light, you shouldn't worry, just wear gloves (most of us do for focus anyways,) and wash your hands. You're not chewing on the wires. If you're really concerned, you could look into jackets to cover them up. Or do the research in what it would cost to rewire all the inventory. In reality, since this place is a "non-profit" they don't have any money and a call to anybody will result in a shut down and the theater could be closed for weeks. There are still plenty of buildings that have abestos insulation around pipes that are far more dangerous than what's wrapped around the wires.
> Money is tight everywhere, so your options are: 1, take precautions (gloves, wash hands) 2: come up with the money to rewire or get jackets, (or whole new inventory: yea right!) 3: risk the theater closing and make a phone call.




thats some bad advise. asbestos is a problem when disturbed. Asbestos insulated pipes are no problem at all if they never get touched. The asbestos fixture wires are moved all the time and the asbestos flakes off. Dont rewire an asbestos fixture either as they have asbestos pads under the lampholders and possibly other asbestos inside.


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## MNicolai (May 16, 2009)

MNBallet is right. You can advise them to replace their inventory, but odds are that they simply do not have the money, and calling it in will result in not only a shut down, but possibly bankrupting the theatre. Being closed for a couple weeks isn't terrible, but if they have to cancel shows, risk fees/fines, pay for all the wiring to be replaced, and try to bring back the audience members they originally had to refund ticket prices to, that can kill small non-profits, and I don't think you want to be "that guy."

That said, I'm not saying don't fix it. The wiring should be replaced, but typically with non-profits replacing wiring is something they would opt not to do, and instead save up money to replace the fixtures in general, or simply put the money towards staying in business. The asbestos wiring insulation is simply not as dangerous as the general insulation. You'd have to play around with the wiring to shake enough particles off to pose a serious threat to you, but walking around in an old attic with the insulation everywhere could be a whole 'nother dumpster of trouble.


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## JD (May 16, 2009)

Much like Radon, asbestos is something to be avoided. Still, we tend to over react sometimes. I grew up in Ambler PA. We had a pair of white mountains and when the wind blew, it was like a snowstorm. It was asbestos from the old closed Madison Asbestos plant. 

The EPA came along and plowed it about turning the town into a blizzard. They then covered the hills over with six inches of topsoil and went home. Given all of this, I would think 40 years later that Ambler would be a hotbed of cancer and asbestosis. It isn't. You should avoid asbestos, radon, and smoking. But, a 911 call over the wires on a light seems a bit over-the-top. When I see such lights being used, I tell those concerned, "You know, that's Asbestos." I suggest to them that they should retire those fixtures, then I sit back and watch the show.


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## MNBallet (May 16, 2009)

here, I found this an interesting read. It's from a theater is Chicago.

Removal of Asbestos Covered Theatre Light Cords | Chicago Artists Resource


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## KeeperoftheKeys (May 17, 2009)

Just wondering, is asbestos cabling (and other material) easily recognizable?

You hear a lot about it but at the moment I don't think I'd recognize it if I was looking at it as I have no idea what it looks like...

Maybe someone can post pictures?

AFAIK if left undisturbed it's not supposed to be dangerous...


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## JD (May 17, 2009)

Thick and puffy like white felt. Sometimes almost a "drywall" finish. Not to be confused with fiberglass which usually has a distinct braided. (Although asbestos can have a "braid like" finish.)


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## derekleffew (May 17, 2009)

See the three white leads from fixture to plug? (Earlier, non-grounded fixtures only had two wires.)



A bigger pic:


On later fixtures, the leads were colored black, white, and green.


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## Smurphy (May 17, 2009)

I am pretty sure this is a big thing. I am not sure the police are the way to go. Maybe another agency. A quick google search should point you in the right direction. Asbestos is not a nice thing and probably should not be taken lightly.


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## LightStud (May 17, 2009)

Smurphy said:


> I am pretty sure this is a big thing. ... Asbestos is not a nice thing and probably should not be taken lightly.


Difficult to take the hysteria seriously considering there's NOT ONE single case of illness or death *solely attributable* to asbestos insulated wires on stage lighting fixtures. Thousands (millions?) of lights, thousands of stagehands, for about 100 years and continuing today, and not one reported case.

Were it not for unscrupulous lawyers, it's likely the general public would have never heard of mesothelioma--2,000 new cases a year out of a possible 300,000,000.


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## JD (May 17, 2009)

LightStud said:


> Difficult to take the hysteria seriously considering there's NOT ONE single case of illness or death *solely attributable* to asbestos insulated wires on stage lighting fixtures. Thousands (millions?) of lights, thousands of stagehands, for about 100 years and continuing today, and not one reported case.



Yea, the shipbuilding industry as well as heating and boiler builders abused their workers for many many years until a groundswell of lawsuits developed. These people used to come home coated with the stuff! As is often the case, once the ball started rolling, government swung to the opposite extreme. These days, the sight of a single piece of asbestos sends people into an EPA clean up frenzy. Somewhere between the two extremes lies the truth. Often, I think the cleanup effort puts more people in danger than the original offense. (imho) (see story about Ambler in my prior post.) 

To me it makes sense to avoid something we know is harmful. Smoking is harmful too so I avoid both. Can't say which is worse.


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## ship (May 17, 2009)

No comment beyond past comments - less about the wire, more about the silverly particals floating about as you sweep the floor or move about in the catwalk of concern for me. Whips, a lot less asbestos about them than a pipe,. on the other hand none, less a concern but not a 911 concern.

As said before, cut and bag the whips plug and all, than cut and bag what you can from what's left with protection... Whats left in fixture is minor with asbestos or wiring and easy to dispose of safely without requiring a new lighting inventory.

Me, I'm more woried about the dust in the air than the fixture whips. This all given any cancer you might have been exposed to potentially most likely is ten years from now and you like I 15 years ago when I was wiring fixtures with a spool of asbestos heat wire I found back stage... one doesn't know but one does do better with time. Would I use fixtures with asbestos whips these days - this given years of using them or removing and bagging them?

Were I doing a show, I think I would require asbestos abatement by a professional before I did the show or touched the lights upon seening them. My health ain't worth further exposure to asbestos. This given the house such fixtures already has that dust in it and even if the fixture whips were changed, the already fallen off paticles - the more dangerous part of it is now in the air is a risk hard to abate short of closing down the place and paying large bucks to clean up.

Still though, yea I could deal with asbestos whips - mostly upon sight getting a bag around the whip and cutting if off into the bag, than dealing with the insides seperately with protection. Fixtures are easy, me I'm more worried about crawling about in a grid and seeing silvery flakes to the dust I stur up.

Doubt I would design at a theater with as asbestos whips, nor at a theater without flame trated scenic elements or safe plugs. Still though that's me these days and not me from the past.

I did seemingly survive the exposure while replacing bad asbestos whips for new asbestos whips and all the dust in the grid over the years. That said, might not have - its a chance of yes or no with one, amount of exposure and a chance. These days, I don't work on stage and say when someone brings me their fixture they got from school and it's got an asbestos whip on it, I tell them than bag and trash it before discussing any resale price or wiring advice on it. Got thru the mail a box spot that was also asbestos, long gone in simple enough to remove upon site. 

That said, communication is necessary. One don't just go bagging and trashing upon site someone else's property - you first communicate than either do so or walk away. If a number of fixtures and or whips to trash, don't remove them, get protection for yourself in trashing in placce.

Anyway some thoughts.


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## awhaley (May 18, 2009)

You've got a lot of us talking about it... 

In the end you have to make the decision, and you'll bear the consequences. None of us are (to the best of my knowledge) experts in the field of asbestos risk assessment and mitigation... so you're really asking the wrong folks and you should take all of our advice as just that, friendly advice; go on to seek expert answers in the expert places. 

For me that would be the first step - consulting an actual expert in the field, describing what you're looking at, how many of them you're going to work with, what their general condition is, what the ventilation in the working environment is like, etc. If they don't ask you questions about all of that, you're not talking to an expert. 

Then I'd take their advice. 

If I couldn't get a satisfactory answer from an expert for whatever reason, I'd personally politely refuse to do the show, and I'd very politely explain my concerns in writing to the producer and venue managers. The TD is going to call you and give you several good sounding reasons why the instruments are safe... telling you that as long as the fibers are bonded to the cable it's not a problem, and giving you some stuff he read in a magazine about what 'flavor' asbestos is the dangerous kind... etc. I'd politely explain again (and follow up IN WRITING) that I'm not comfortable working with them, both from a personal safety and a professional liability standpoint. In my (not a lawyer) opionion, this counts as due dilligence. If I continued working in the space, asked electricians to touch the lights knowing that I was potentially exposing them to life threatening toxins, I would consider myself negligent and exposed to both lawsuits and plain bad karma, regardless of whether or not I was actually exposed to the carcinogens. 

By making sure that my issues are in writing and on file with the venue, the producer, and anyone else who I have a conversation with about the issue, I've got evidence that I did my part to inform the appropriate people of the issue and to keep myself reasonably protected from blame.

But that's just what I'd do if I couldn't reach experts. You're dealing with an issue that is big enough to generate career ending lawsuits or (however remote the possibility) life ending illness... so you should take the time to follow up with the right people. Ask the asbestos expert what your risks are, and where you can find an explanation of that in writing if you ever need to prove it to someone else. Ask a lawyer what your liability is in the situation, how to minimize it, and what your obligation to report it to the authorities. (I would GUESS that you're not in a position to have to report this... but this is a BIG 'ask your lawyer!' sort of thing...)

Hope my answering while telling you to go ask someone who can give you legit answers helps a little!

Art Whaley
Art Whaley Design


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## reggie98 (May 18, 2009)

Is asbestos bad?? If you ask anyone that worked for Johns Manville or lived in the town of Manville, N.J., they would tell you, yes. This is sort of a case where: do I turn a "blind eye" to the situation and walk away; do I force the theater to do the right thing? I agree totally with Ship that removing the fixture whips only prevents further contamination. The particles are already on every floor, in every crack, crevice and on every seat cushion. I can't imagine how the facility could ever be cleaned up. Positive preasure ventilation with HEPA filters, airlocks and workers in moonsuits? Wipe down or vaccuum every object in the theater?


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## quarterfront (May 19, 2009)

I keep trying to reply to this thread but I just can't do it.


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## TimMiller (May 20, 2009)

do what my highschool did, put large blanket over entire school, send in workers in moon suits to remove asbestos, post signs around that say aesbestos, proper breathing appratius required beyond this point, and then continue to have class. Of course there was absolutely no protection for the students, but they are young and will be ok..... Thankfully i was not there yet, or i would have refused to go and gotten the EPA and several attorneys involved.

A little off topic but depending on your police dept, they may tell you there is nothing we can do such as the time i called them when i caught some people illegally dumping on my land, and i was sure to inform them next time they will be held at gun point. Stupid cops, yet they arrested me for "tresspassing" on my own land, and yet i told them to get off first.


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## JD (May 20, 2009)

TimMiller said:


> A little off topic but depending on your police dept, they may tell you there is nothing we can do such as the time i called them when i caught some people illegally dumping on my land, and i was sure to inform them next time they will be held at gun point. Stupid cops, yet they arrested me for "tresspassing" on my own land, and yet i told them to get off first.



In the same circumstances, I think they would be responding to a "Shots have been fired" call at my house!


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## Kelite (May 21, 2009)

Being in a very rural setting, shots fired (outside) at our place is nothing out of the ordinary. Rather, if there have NOT been shots fired for at least 2 weeks- please send someone to investigate! We prefer to maintain our marksmanship...


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## jonliles (May 21, 2009)

JD-
You sound like you are ex-Navy. One of the things we did, back in my Navy days, is everyone that worked in the shipyards had an asbestos baseline physical. One of my Master Chiefs died from asbestosis - but that wa smore the exceptation. Typically the "yards" blamed it on insulation/lagging.

Jon


JD said:


> Yea, the shipbuilding industry as well as heating and boiler builders abused their workers for many many years until a groundswell of lawsuits developed. These people used to come home coated with the stuff! As is often the case, once the ball started rolling, government swung to the opposite extreme. These days, the sight of a single piece of asbestos sends people into an EPA clean up frenzy. Somewhere between the two extremes lies the truth. Often, I think the cleanup effort puts more people in danger than the original offense. (imho) (see story about Ambler in my prior post.)
> 
> To me it makes sense to avoid something we know is harmful. Smoking is harmful too so I avoid both. Can't say which is worse.


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## gafftaper (May 21, 2009)

I worked my way through school as a boiler operating school custodian. Working around asbestos was a daily thing and I had a lot of training so I knew what to do and what not to do. Asbestos is bad stuff but only when it turns friable and breaks down into little tiny particles and gets in your lungs. The nasty thing about asbestos is that the particles are so small that they don't fall to the ground. They will stay airborne in a closed room for days. When you walk past you stir them right back up again. Asbestos still in its original fiber form is completely harmless. 

Should you be afraid if you see a little asbestos wiring in a theater? No. Should you try to do something about it? Well yes of course, but not for fear of the audience all dying next week. Asbestos is a prolonged exposure killer. It's the lighting technician who works with these instruments all the time who is at the highest risk here. When soaking wet, asbestos is completely harmless. Your concern is tiny particles floating into the smallest corners of your lungs and staying forever. This isn't possible when asbestos is properly sealed off, still in good condition, or wet. As Ship said, you should really be more worried about the particles in the dust on the floor.

Asbestos was a wonder product and it is EVERYWHERE. I would be far more concerned about the safety of the sound proofing in the building, the tile floor, the material the ceiling is made from. They are also likely to be asbestos and far more dangerous. Do you have "popcorn" ceilings at home? Ever work for a brake shop? Bad news brake pads are loaded with the stuff. It's everywhere. Here in Seattle they were doing air purity testing inside schools and they were testing one school located very close to the freeway during rush hour traffic. It's an old school full of asbestos but (due to the slow grinding stop and go rush hour traffic outside) there was actually more asbestos in the outdoor control samples than inside the building. 

There are lots of federal laws covering proper disposal of asbestos. I doubt it's legal to just cut off the whips, bag them and throw them in the trash. At the same time this potentially opens a HUGE can of worms. Once you start down the asbestos removal path it gets REALLY expensive REALLY fast. I think just about every building you've ever been in built before the 1980's could be shut down for asbestos if someone really put their mind to it. 

Yes it's a problem.
Yes it should be removed from theaters.
No don't call 911. 
As Awhaley said consult an actual expert before panicking. 
Work with the theater to develop a solution of how to gradually replace the cables.


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## jwl868 (May 21, 2009)

There is so much information about asbestos that a post or thread cannot cover it all. I suggest the following sources:

For general information about asbestos in the environment, see US EPA Asbestos Home Page:

Asbestos | US EPA


For information about occupational exposdure to asbestos see OSHA Asbestos “home page”:

Safety and Health Topics: Asbestos


For specific environmental regulations about asbestos, see Toxic Substances Control Act regulations in 40 CFR 763 (Subchapter R) (Asbestos is not regulated as a hazardous waste. I don't think any states classify it as a hazardous waste, either.):

Electronic Code of Federal Regulations:


or this to get to the entire Code of Federal Regulations:

Electronic Code of Federal Regulations:


(There are also National Emission Standards in 40 CFR 61, Subpart M.

Electronic Code of Federal Regulations: )

Joe


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## gordonmcleod (May 21, 2009)

Normally containing the lead in a fiberglass sheath is considered at least up here in canada acceptable also many older devices they have felt that it was not a large risk factor
In fact I just was installing a set of strong super troupers that had that white mineral fiber cable in them and the rectifiers and when pointed out to the CSA inspector they had no issues with it


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## ship (May 25, 2009)

gafftaper said:


> There are lots of federal laws covering proper disposal of asbestos. I doubt it's legal to just cut off the whips, bag them and throw them in the trash. At the same time this potentially opens a HUGE can of worms. Once you start down the asbestos removal path it gets REALLY expensive REALLY fast. I think just about every building you've ever been in built before the 1980's could be shut down for asbestos if someone really put their mind to it.
> 
> Yes it's a problem.
> Yes it should be removed from theaters.
> ...



Very valid counterpoint.


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## quarterfront (May 25, 2009)

> Once you start down the asbestos removal path it gets REALLY expensive REALLY fast. I think just about every building you've ever been in built before the 1980's could be shut down for asbestos if someone really put their mind to it.



...and the asbestos bell is one that once rung cannot be unrung.

...and in the words of Warren Buffet, "Never ask a barber if he thinks you need a haircut".


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## FatherMurphy (May 25, 2009)

If you recommend to the theater that they replace the cables, make sure they realize that the new wiring has to be high temperature teflon jacketed wire, not garden variety SO or THHN wire. I've seen a couple fixtures where the school custodian chopped up an orange extension cord to make new tails for fixtures, with most impressive results.

The teflon wire isn't terribly expensive, you should be able to get a set of precut and terminated leads and fiberglass sleeving for less than $20 per fixture. If you have a lot of fixtures to convert, I'd suggest looking into getting spools and cutting your own. Replacing or rethinking strain reliefs is part of the rewiring process, and everything will need bench focusing after the wiring is done.

I've often gone into small town school theaters, and while talking to the superintendent/principal/maintenance chief, mentioned that "That fuzzy white insulation on those lights' cables? The name for it starts with the letter 'A'..." This usually leads to a purchase order a few weeks later for several teflon wire kits.


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## reggie98 (May 27, 2009)

My final words on this. By 911, I meant first the town health deptartment, then maybe someone in the "inspections" department of the town, as this is a risk they are choosing to expose the patrons, the cast and crew to, last option would be the state D.E.P. The President/Chairperson/head honcho of the non-profit (very liberal definition) theater is well aware of the situation. This knowledge doesn't stop them from hanging, moving or focusing fixtures with Asbestos tails over the audience area. If your teenage or younger child was volunteering or performing at a theater like this, could you still be as ambivalent?


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## gordonmcleod (May 27, 2009)

I think a grain of salt is always needed and a cool head should prevail
The best solution is for a phased in retrofitas I doubt they could afford a wholesale one at once and in most locations they would not worry about it anyway


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## Matthew Symons (Apr 22, 2015)

Hi everyone, new to this forum
I know there are many threads about asbestos wiring, but wanted some confirmation.
There is a community theatre that has a few fresnels that appear to have asbestos wiring (this theatre has pretty good light inventory). What is the best thing to do in this situation? 
I will attach a photo, could someone confirm if this is asbestos or not


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## Footer (Apr 22, 2015)

Matthew Symons said:


> Hi everyone, new to this forum
> I know there are many threads about asbestos wiring, but wanted some confirmation.
> There is a community theatre that has a few fresnels that appear to have asbestos wiring (this theatre has pretty good light inventory). What is the best thing to do in this situation?
> I will attach a photo, could someone confirm if this is asbestos or not



Trash the fixture and buy new. http://www.fullcompass.com/product/306017.html

Those fixtures really are not worth saving. It takes a decent amount of work to get them cleaned out and adapted for a single whip.


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## STEVETERRY (Apr 23, 2015)

LightStud said:


> Difficult to take the hysteria seriously considering there's NOT ONE single case of illness or death *solely attributable* to asbestos insulated wires on stage lighting fixtures. Thousands (millions?) of lights, thousands of stagehands, for about 100 years and continuing today, and not one reported case.
> 
> Were it not for unscrupulous lawyers, it's likely the general public would have never heard of mesothelioma--2,000 new cases a year out of a possible 300,000,000.



Err....not quite. New York stagehand Barbara Bercu passed away about 10 years ago of mesothelioma. Prior to her death, she sued a number of manufacturers and rental shops, alleging that her illness was due to asbestos exposure from fixtures and asbestos borders. The suit was settled after her death.

ST


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## JD (Apr 23, 2015)

It's a lot like smoking. Quantity, duration, and personal genetic makeup all play a role. The way I view it is, "why play in traffic if you don't have to?" Is there a hysteria? Maybe. But if you are the one with an asbestos related illness and you could of avoided the exposure you would be asking yourself why you took the risk. Life is a terminal condition, but we all want to give ourselves the best odds at having a good, healthy, long one!

In the picture posted, the wiring looks a little puffy and flakey. That's when things get a little dangerous.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Apr 23, 2015)

I have consulted on a few major renovations for public schools funded by "life safety " funds because of asbestos insulation on the lighting.


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## Apmccandless (Apr 24, 2015)

For disposal I would refer you to the book _The Health & Safety Guide for Film, TV & Theater_ by Monona Rossol, an industrial hygienist. The book is a great reference and clearly lays out the risks of Asbestos wrapped cords and offers legal and safe abatement methods. Namely to either double bag the instruments and call toxic waste disposal, or hire an abatement company.


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## Les (Apr 24, 2015)

Matthew Symons said:


> Hi everyone, new to this forum
> I know there are many threads about asbestos wiring, but wanted some confirmation.
> There is a community theatre that has a few fresnels that appear to have asbestos wiring (this theatre has pretty good light inventory). What is the best thing to do in this situation?
> I will attach a photo, could someone confirm if this is asbestos or not



Yes, that is asbestos.

Either phase the fixtures out of inventory or replace the whips. How many is "a few" and do they get used often? If they're never used I'd just part with them. If they are needed, plan for repair or replacement.

You could also just chop the tails off now and plan on replacement later.

Of course, get permission first. If they don't approve, just store them away. You may or may not have the authority to deface the fixtures but you do have the power to not use them. All in all a couple of lights, especially if undisturbed, is not the biggest deal. But it is well worth correcting if you have the ability.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Apr 24, 2015)

If the owner of these knowingly allows you to handle asbestos, they are in trouble. My advice is don't touch them and tell the owner you suspect these are a hazard.

Its usually less expensive to replace the unit than abate it following all the regs.


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## Les (Apr 24, 2015)

BillConnerASTC said:


> Its usually less expensive to replace the unit than abate it following all the regs.



Could you expand on this? I understand that proper disposal costs can add up, but whether you're throwing the leads away or the entire fixture, you're still abating asbestos.


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## Robert (Apr 25, 2015)

My asbestos experience. I had a tech room that years prior to my arrival had been the location where the old asbestos leads had been cut from lighting fixtures and then replaced. I was concerned and reported to our safety folks, nice to have. They did an air quality test and found no measurable amounts of asbestos. So no problem. I also worked an outdoor amphitheater and we had asbestos leads. They worked fine until it got foggy. Asbestos loses it resistance to passing electricity when wet. 
My advice, call an air quality company and get the air in the room tested. Don't touch or abrade the leads. Let the people in charge know the issue. Put it in a letter, you do not need to be an alarmist, just let them know the facts. If they choose to do nothing,then you will get a picture of how they feel about your and their audiences health.
Landfills require you to bag and identify asbestos being disposed of in their facility. It has a special area for disposal.


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## Jay Ashworth (Apr 25, 2015)

This topic is an *excellent* exemplar of the difference between *Importance* and *Urgency*, a distinction I try to make when setting up ticketing systems.

Is this problem *important*? Sure it is. 

Does it need to be fixed *next week*? Probably not.

Underrated chains on battens are a "priority one" ticket. This one, though, is a "we really need to get this fixed at some point, and if a opportunity doesn't seem to be presenting itself, we need to make one".

The problem will be more all the people -- and parents of the people -- who are involved, who cannot think rationally and do a reasonable risk analysis on the problem. People -- even many professionals -- are *singularly* bad at risk assessment, skewing too far in either direction.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Apr 26, 2015)

Les said:


> Could you expand on this? I understand that proper disposal costs can add up, but whether you're throwing the leads away or the entire fixture, you're still abating asbestos.


Workers in ssuits and air sampling and testing - just too expensive to save an old Fresnel. Sure, you can cut the leads off and toss them in a can, but you've broken a bunch of regulations.

I think the hazard is greatly exaggerated. But I know from bidding experience if you require the work to be done to occupational safety standards, just bury the whole fixture and buy a new one for less.


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## JD (Apr 26, 2015)

I think what he is referring to is that even the disposal of the whole fixture in the garbage still has to comply with all the abatement regulations. (as in, you _*can't*_ just throw it in the garbage.) If you are going to go through the hassle, then why not end up with a fixture at the end of the process?


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## BillConnerFASTC (Apr 26, 2015)

You can bag and bury the fixture for less than the men in space suits to work on it.

As I said, it was based on competitive bids - abate and rewire or replace.


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## STEVETERRY (Apr 26, 2015)

BillConnerASTC said:


> You can bag and bury the fixture for less than the men in space suits to work on it.
> 
> As I said, it was based on competitive bids - abate and rewire or replace.



Plus, in the year 2015, there's a pretty good chance you would want to replace any fixture with asbestos wiring simply to upgrade to a higher performing modern unit. Asbestos replacement could provide the tipping point for doing that, budget-wise.

ST


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## ship (Apr 30, 2015)

Recently properly disposed of some asbestos whips for about $500.00, or was it $800.00 I forget. Got it done thru the Trucking Dpt. with their Safety Clean vendor pushing for work instead of thru my lighting dpt. sources that I don’t really have any of other than for metal halide lamp recycling that I would have to investigate.
Got like a 2.5gal. container for that price and only had a week to fill it up with a few cable whips on some 5Kw Fresnels bought used for prop lights which shipped with the asbestos. Nowhere near filled the container in only a few of the studio Fresnels came with asbestos whips, lens pads or other lamp base insulator pads or lamp sockets in need of removal.
Seems licences had to be bought for the removal of asbestos - even if I was doing it and the disposal company was only taking away the sealed container. You cannot just get a bucket to fill up and dispose with once filled. And that licence only lasted a week. So unlike the lined 55gal. drum of metal halide lamps I fill up and call for disposal of for $1,000.00 per drum, I only had a week to work with this small container.
The container was the issue, in getting a container that the disposal company could haul away and dispose of. It could only be procured of if there was a permit lasting a week, otherwise I will have gladly filled it up over time. Already have another bag filling up of asbestos wiring since than that could have been added to the container.
That’s the problem, perhaps you buy something off E-Bay and it comes with asbestos wiring... normally I ask if buying something the supplier cut the whip and all wiring to the fixture and they dispose of it, in this case I didn’t buy the lights and was now as with all else that find the asbestos stuck with the cost and life/safety hazzards of now my problem, I have to deal with it. A $40.00 light just cost you over $500.00 just to dispose of it beyond costs of guys in white suits coming out to deal with it if wanting really proper disposal.
Ibid on the yes you can atmosphere test a place for how much asbestos is in the air, but I still worry about what’s flaked off over the years that some techie rushing to a lighting position will raise in the dust of the catwalk or corners of the stage floor which such a test of stagnant air is useless for detection of. I worry most about the flakes already flaked off in the environment over any fixture whip when cut and disposed of quickly especially if moistened before cutting and moving into a sealed bag done - including the plug.
Pile up perhaps a few sealed bags sufficient to fill a container than get the disposal? A 2.5gal. Container might dispose of one Fresnel. And in cutting asbestos, that’s a management thing in disposal of in determining what the local policy is and in doing so themselves.
Rules about asbestos are there for a reason and you won’t know of a problem for like ten years after exposure. How to get rid of it is the main problem.


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## JD (Apr 30, 2015)

Some afterthought.... This is the town I work in. It is the town near where I grew up. By all accounts, everyone should be dead.
https://newhive.com/amblergazette/asbestos-ambler
The following picture says it all. That mountain behind the kids sliding, pure asbestos.


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## BillConnerFASTC (May 6, 2015)

Seems like many of the people affected were the workers spraying asbestos into ship hulls and buildings 40 hr/wk, and smoking a pack or two a day of Lucky Strikes.


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## JD (May 6, 2015)

True story: 
My Uncle Herb died at the age of 94. He ate bacon and eggs each morning for breakfast, smoked cigars like a power plant, pizza for lunch, was a womanizer, never exercised a day in his life. My Uncle Herb died because he was hit by a car, crossing the street while bringing a pizza home for lunch. I remember the day well because even though my mother was crying, I had to suppress laughter. What a way to go! Great life, great health, no drawn out hospital stay, just BANG, the end! 

What this reminds me of is that we try to work out all the factors to live a long life, but most of the factors are not in our hands to play with. Some people smoke one cigarette and later develop lung cancer. Avoid asbestos and statistically, you will live longer, but if you caught a snout full at some point, don't let it worry you to death. You could be the next "Uncle Herb!"


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## josh88 (May 1, 2016)

*note* I've never seen these lights closer than this. This was a theatre my wife was renting and they had asbestos concerns. I couldn't tell other than the lights are old enough that they could be and the look fuzzy and similar enough. I couldn't tell and I was focused on other things but I figured it couldn't hurt to check with people smarter than me. Apologies for the quality, this was while I was striking audio gear and in a rush from the deck.

TLDR: can't tell, asbestos?


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## DavidNorth (May 1, 2016)

Looks like asbestos on Electro Controls Fresnels and plug strips.

David


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## Les (May 1, 2016)

Looks like asbestos, but "when in doubt". If for no other reason, they should phase them out due to the individual leads.


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## josh88 (May 1, 2016)

Thats what I was thinking. The place was built in the 70's. I warned a person they might be an issue, and was informed they have no budget to do anything about it. Wanted to verify I wasn't wrong in my thinking.


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## derekleffew (May 1, 2016)

Electro Controls #3466, one of the best 6" Fresnel s ever made (except for that pesky asbestos problem--painting the wires different colors doesn't abate the issue). https://www.controlbooth.com/threads/electro-controls-fresnel.12805/#post-131206
Also post#9 of this exact thread.


Pretty sure it doesn't get more definitive than the manufacturer's cut sheet:

> ELECTRICAL: The instrument is furnished with a heat resistant connector and 42" extra flexible *asbestos* cable with strain relief clamp for 120 volt operation.



If only it were January 1970 again!


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## josh88 (May 1, 2016)

derekleffew said:


> Electro Controls #3466, one of the best 6" Fresnel s ever made (except for that pesky asbestos problem--painting the wires different colors doesn't abate the issue). https://www.controlbooth.com/threads/electro-controls-fresnel.12805/#post-131206
> Also post#9 of this exact thread.


Thanks, I'd seen a couple of threads, hadn't seen those particular posts. I just happened to be looking up for the first time and noticed the fuzzy and have read enough around here and especially as an educator concerned about students wanted to double check before advising too seriously. Its a tough spot because they're cash strapped and having to remove those from service would significantly hamper their abilities and they can't afford to replace them, but student/adult health outweigh the unfortunate artistic negatives that would result. 

I appreciate the help folks.


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## ship (May 2, 2016)

If not moved and not adjusteted safe enough for now in nobody going up there to stur up the dust. Dust the primary factor - those little particles already fallen off the whips lingering like a silver dust in the air. Not the primary concern once whip cut and bagged the whips of the fixtures, that's easy the rest of the inner workings to vaccume and re-wire. More about what's fallen off from the whip that gets sturred up in the air to be concerned over.

My main concern always is theater houses, in what percentages of particles from fixture whips are left as per dust to constantly be sturred about as one walks about in the front of house lighting positions. Its more about the dust and flakes of the wiring than the wiring still on the light in my opinion to be concerned about.


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