# LED suggestion for house lights



## JChenault (Dec 30, 2011)

I'm looking to specify some LED units for our houselights. The intent is ( as part of a remodel) to replace the <expletive deleted> R30 floods that keep burning out, with something that will not burn out, and that we can control more easily using our console.

My working plan is to surface mount some kind of unit on the ceiling pointing down for house lights. ( We could recess if necessary )

So what's important to us?
1 - No fan.
2 - DMX control.
3 - Not just RGB or RGBA. IE we want a white circuit in there. I would prefer a warm / cool white - but I will take RGBAW - or RGBW if that is what it takes.
4 - An intensity channel in the DMX map.
5 - Smooth dimming curve. No stepping in the low ranges. 
6 - Reasonable beam spread ( reasonable being around 30 to 40 degrees ). Our ceiling is fairly low - about 18 feet.
7 - Some way to reduce glare from the unit. Either put in hexcell or a top hat.

The units I have found so far:
Elation ELED DW Par56. Too narrow a beam spread. Color temp is high ( Their warm is 3000K) 

Apollo HP5-70. Nice beam spread. No fan, no way to control Glare.

Altman Spectra series. 1Q38. A bit high in color temp ( 3000K minimum). Not clear what beam spreads available. They do support options for hexcel accessories, etc.

Chauvet Colorado 1VWTour Nice range of color. The warm white is 2700K. Reasonable beam/field. Can't tell if there is a fan and no way to control glare.


Anyone have other suggestions?

Thanks in advance for the help.


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## emoreth (Dec 30, 2011)

I've seen DMX controllable white LEDs designed for house lighting, but they cost about $1000 per unit. If you have the cash, they're supposed to be pretty good -- MoMa NY uses them. (Wish I could tell you who makes them, but I can't remember at the moment.)


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## SteveB (Dec 30, 2011)

Just curious as to how useful the RGB will be ?.

Do they focus straight down onto the audience seating ?, and are you in need of colors ?. Do you have that now ?. 

I ask as I can't see making the seating area all red, as example. Maybe fun to play with and fun to demo., but how many old farts are going to complain that they can't read the program. 

In any event, ETC makes a set of Desire fixtures, the D40 Studio is their white light version. 

http://www.etcconnect.com/docs/docs_downloads/datashts/7410L1002_Selador_D40_Studio_Spec_Sht_vF.PDF


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## Call911 (Dec 30, 2011)

SteveB said:


> Just curious as to how useful the RGB will be ?.
> 
> Do they focus straight down onto the audience seating ?, and are you in need of colors ?. Do you have that now ?.
> 
> ...


 
Likewise, can you imagine looking up at the lights and seeing all the pretty colors. I think it would look pretty tacky, and a waste of money. They make dimable led flood lights now available at your local Home Depot or Lowes. All sorts of degrees and brightnesses.


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## Morte615 (Dec 30, 2011)

Instead of buying entire new fixtures why not just replace the lamps with LED or CFL versions? (links to Google Shopping to purchase.)
LED would last longer and use less electricity, but will cost more. CFL will still use less electricity than incandescent but more than LED's but are cheaper.


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## chausman (Dec 30, 2011)

Morte615 said:


> Instead of buying entire new fixtures why not just replace the lamps with LED or CFL versions? (links to Google Shopping to purchase.)
> LED would last longer and use less electricity, but will cost more. CFL will still use less electricity than incandescent but more than LED's but are cheaper.


 
CFLs usually don't dim well though.


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## SteveB (Dec 30, 2011)

Call911 said:


> Likewise, can you imagine looking up at the lights and seeing all the pretty colors. I think it would look pretty tacky, and a waste of money. They make dimable led flood lights now available at your local Home Depot or Lowes. All sorts of degrees and brightnesses.


 
But "dimmable" only to a point. Like CFL's' the typical LED running at line voltage have poor response at the lower intensities, which is where "House to a glow" usually wants to be.


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## elliot47 (Dec 31, 2011)

I'm glad I read this... We have older house lights that bulbs are not made for anymore. We are now out of replacemrnt bulbs so the next time a bulb goes out he have to out in brand new house lights.


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## gafftapegreenia (Dec 31, 2011)

There is this from The Light Source 


LED Dimming 100 Watt Fresnel House Light

L&E also has a product

Flood Lights


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## Edrick (Dec 31, 2011)

I feel people are missing the code requirements for a public venue space. I'm pretty sure just slapping up some theatrical RGB led cans will not be acceptable.

How big of a venue is this? How will you be getting power to these cans? DMX? Who will be installing them?


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## techieman33 (Dec 31, 2011)

I 2nd just replacing your current lamps with led unit's. We've played with a couple of 2700k lights and were happy with their performance, both output and foot candles.


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## Les (Dec 31, 2011)

elliot47 said:


> I'm glad I read this... We have older house lights that bulbs are not made for anymore. We are now out of replacemrnt bulbs so the next time a bulb goes out he have to out in brand new house lights.



Assuming the fixtures are in good condition, you could just see if they can replace the sockets with something a little more current (but NOT a mini-can base. Those lamps do not hold up in house light applications!). I know that a refurb isn't as fun, but...

More on the mini-can lamps -- the high school I went to had a newly renovated fine arts wing. The auditorium house lights were (are still) black cylindrical pendants with EVR lamps... About 50 of them (~1200 seats w/balcony). At any given time, about 2/3 of the house lights would be out. Even after a relamp, we would still lose them left and right (didn't help that the lights were on more time than not). During one relamp, they drilled holes in the tops of the fixtures in a crude attempt to ventilate them, and used self-tapping screws to attach hardware cloth (mesh) inside the reflector to contain lamp fragments in the event of a rupture/super-nova event. Why the fixtures didn't already have this, I do not know. It may have helped, but it couldn't have been much. In the off-chance that I find myself there, they usually have the same burnout situation we did with a small percentage of the house lights actually functional. They have to hire in a company with a straddle lift to do the relamp. I remember the process taking about two days each time.


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## techieman33 (Dec 31, 2011)

Les said:


> Assuming the fixtures are in good condition, you could just see if they can replace the sockets with something a little more current (but NOT a mini-can base. Those lamps do not hold up in house light applications!). I know that a refurb isn't as fun, but...
> 
> More on the mini-can lamps -- the high school I went to had a newly renovated fine arts wing. The auditorium house lights were (are still) black cylindrical pendants with EVR lamps... About 50 of them (~1200 seats w/balcony). At any given time, about 2/3 of the house lights would be out. Even after a relamp, we would still lose them left and right (didn't help that the lights were on more time than not). During one relamp, they drilled holes in the tops of the fixtures in a crude attempt to ventilate them, and used self-tapping screws to attach hardware cloth (mesh) inside the reflector to contain lamp fragments in the event of a rupture/super-nova event. Why the fixtures didn't already have this, I do not know. It may have helped, but it couldn't have been much. In the off-chance that I find myself there, they usually have the same burnout situation we did with a small percentage of the house lights actually functional. They have to hire in a company with a straddle lift to do the relamp. I remember the process taking about two days each time.


 
We don't have many problems with our EVR lamps, the GE lamps seem to do better than the sylvania lamps. We always use the GE, unfortunately they had a problem with manufacturing them and we had to buy a case of the sylvanias, a couple of them were done in under 100 hours of use, we may have just gotten a bad batch though. Another thing we do to help extend lamp life is set our full setting in the house lights to 95%.


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## dj41354 (Dec 31, 2011)

See also this previous thread about LED house lights:
http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/lighting-electrics/25585-led-house-lights.html


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## SteveB (Dec 31, 2011)

Edrick said:


> I feel people are missing the code requirements for a public venue space. I'm pretty sure just slapping up some theatrical RGB led cans will not be acceptable.
> 
> How big of a venue is this? How will you be getting power to these cans? DMX? Who will be installing them?



Yup, big heads up on this. If your current system is the ONLY lighting for the space and it qualifies as the "emergency" lighting, you will want to re-think this, or think it thru differently so as to provide for an emergency system when needed. If you have a separate and stand-alone flood light system, then the dimmable house lighting is essentially just another segment of the performance lighting and you can modify to your hearts content.


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## JChenault (Dec 31, 2011)

Thanks for the replies. Some clarification.

The current house lights are essentially track lights with R30 lamps in them. The ceiling is between 18 and 20 feet from the auditorium floor ( depending on where you are in the house). 

The dimming of the house lights is currently via wall type dimmers ( IE no DMX control ). One advantage of LED units is that we would not have to incur the costs of an additional fixed rack. 

We anticipate having to remove the existing lighting anyway as part of the remodel.

I don't think a retro fit to 'Home Depot' LED lamps works due to the issues noted. They will not dim all the way out, and we would have to install DMX dimmers to control them in any event.

The house lights are not the emergency exit lights. These are battery backed up floods.

If we end up with an RGBW type unit, I do not anticipate using the RGB part except to tweak the perceived color temperature of the lamp. IE I am not expecting to put any kind of intense colors in the house.

The work will be done by licensed electricians and will meet applicable codes. Even if I were so inclined, neither my architect or the city would let us do anything else.

I am resistant to the higher power units ( ETC Desire ) as we have a short throw and want to keep the glare down. A larger number of lower power units will work better than a smaller number of high power units.

I really don't want to see the the standard 'LED bunch of tiny light look' in the ceiling of the house. 


Thanks for the link to the 'Light Source' product. I will take a deeper look at them.


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## gafftaper (Dec 31, 2011)

I went to a conference session at LDI last year about Greening up the theater. They strongly urged people to explore LED replacement PAR's as the most economical solution to your problem. Yes there is a bit of a blink on and off at the very end of the dimming curve, but they felt that most audiences aren't really going to notice or care. It's something that bothers you and I because we are in tune to lighting, but most people aren't. The people on the panel said that once you get used to it, it's not a big deal. They were talking about replacing with just off the shelf "Home Depot" products. 

Note my experience with CFL's as a house light was very poor. I recommend extreme caution with them. The problem is that they have a significant warm up time. The ones in my old theater would blink on and be very dim and pink for over a minute as they gradually warmed up to a bright white. That was simply not acceptable.


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## Beans45601 (Jan 2, 2012)

Anyone know of any of those Light Source units in the wild? They look great. My faith in L&E was destroyed earlier this year, which is too bad, those look good too.


gafftapegreenia said:


> There is this from The Light Source
> 
> LED Dimming 100 Watt Fresnel House Light
> 
> ...


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## gripguy (Jan 3, 2012)

Hey all

If you are looking for an LED track light try The Black Tank.
RGB or W\C White and have a track mount option and are of course DMXable.

The Black Tank High Power Compact LED Fixtures

Gripguy


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## Morte615 (Jan 3, 2012)

Those seem like an interesting product, has anyone used them before?
I like the fact that they can be installed on Track as well as the flexibility of mounting.


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## derekleffew (Jan 3, 2012)

Morte615 said:


> Those seem like an interesting product, has anyone used them before? ...


See this post.


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## dj41354 (Jan 3, 2012)

Morte615 said:


> Those seem like an interesting product, has anyone used them before?


So far customers have been either early adopters, or needed the small size to solve a variety of install problems. Carnival Cruise decided to try some because of their space constraints, and CBS news in NYC bought a bunch when they found out they had less room in their new custom studio fixtures than they thought. The 8-packs have been popular with rental houses. Altman carries Brickblasters now for example: 
Altman Rentals LED Fixtures
ESPN bought some all white fixtures (WNC's)... and there's quite a few others too, but the fixtures are still virtually unknown. You'll be hard pressed to find someone who has one. The factory has demo units, that may be your best bet if you're really interested.


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## ejsandstrom (Jan 4, 2012)

If you are only using the RGB to adjust color temp take a look at Chroma-Q - Products - Creative LED - Studio Force V 12 - Features

Variable Color temp. 

As far as being able to turn the whole room red, or blue or whatever, I can think of a bunch of times that it would be useful. 

Fellowship Church brought in a ton of wash lights just to wash the crowd when they were recording their live music DVD. It would be cool to have that built into the house lights. 
http://www.chroma-q.com/products/studioforcev12/overview.asp


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## RickR (Jan 6, 2012)

Affineon makes some nice looking fixtures. The downlight series gets to be pretty bright. They are probably too bright and expensive for your use unless you redo the whole system.

On the code note: they can be set to go on when DMX is lost, for emergency conditions.

I've had demo units but haven't seen them in action. I will in the next few months if the installers get moving...


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## tjrobb (Jan 6, 2012)

RickR alluded to this, but the code issue is that, more than just during a power loss, you need "panic" lighting. Basically "it" hits the fan and the house lights go on, to full, ideally white. At our space our racks are tied into the fire alarm so when the alarm trips the lights go on. No evacuation in the dark, EVER.


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## JChenault (Jan 6, 2012)

tjrobb said:


> RickR alluded to this, but the code issue is that, more than just during a power loss, you need "panic" lighting. Basically "it" hits the fan and the house lights go on, to full, ideally white. At our space our racks are tied into the fire alarm so when the alarm trips the lights go on. No evacuation in the dark, EVER.


 
Actually, in our jurisdiction the code requires that, during a power loss, there is a battery operated system that will turn on. This does *not *have to be the house lights and typically is not. We have mounted on the wall, a number of units with a couple of PAR heads that connect to a battery. When power is lost they come on.


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## JChenault (Jan 6, 2012)

Morte615 said:


> Those seem like an interesting product, has anyone used them before?
> I like the fact that they can be installed on Track as well as the flexibility of mounting.


 

These look quite nice - but they do have a fan. Has anyone had experience with the unit and can fill me in on how noisy they are?


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## SteveB (Jan 6, 2012)

tjrobb said:


> RickR alluded to this, but the code issue is that, more than just during a power loss, you need "panic" lighting. Basically "it" hits the fan and the house lights go on, to full, ideally white. At our space our racks are tied into the fire alarm so when the alarm trips the lights go on. No evacuation in the dark, EVER.



The OP indicated that there is a stand-alone emergency lighting system in place, so the LED system need not take panic into account.

In general, you can provide for emergency lighting in a number of ways.

1) Stand-alone fixtures to provide the minimum footcandles and coverage, off individual battery operated units.

2) Same thing, except the stand-alone fixtures can be powered off a generator.

In either of those instances, the dimmable "house lighting" can be considered a "performance" type lighting and does not need to be part of the emergency system, as that has been provided for.

3) In the event you desire to not install individual units, the general house lighting system can become part of the emergency system. Usually this take the form of;

A) The individual branch circuits off a dimming/switching system can be routed thru a multi-pole transfer switch that routes the emergency generated power to the individual branch circuits upon loss of building normal power, or;

B) An entire dimmer/relay pack, or packs, can have their main power feed system routed thru a larger transfer switch that will transfer power to generator and simultaneously have the controlling system for the pack electronics module drive the dimmers/relays to full upon loss of normal building power.

So one of the interesting issues that will result in the retrofitting of a current incandescent house lighting system ,that is also the emergency system, with LED fixtures, especially those requiring DMX data to energize, will be how to design such a system so that the fixtures do indeed, energize upon loss of normal building power. If individual fixtures that are normally DMX controlled have auto-sensing to drive levels to full upon loss of normal building power, then that obviously becomes a selling point for that fixture in that application.


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## tjrobb (Jan 6, 2012)

I may have been mis-read. The all-on panic lighting is in addition to the battery units, or genset, or inverted. Fire breaks out, power stays on, you may have evacuation in the gloom.


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## chausman (Jan 6, 2012)

tjrobb said:


> I may have been mis-read. The all-on panic lighting is in addition to the battery units, or genset, or inverted. Fire breaks out, power stays on, you may have evacuation in the gloom.


 
What code says that? Do you have a reference? Does it apply to other states, such as Washington where the OP is?


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## derekleffew (Jan 6, 2012)

Applicable relevant codes are mentioned in the pdf article by STEVETERRY _et al_ in the wiki entry ELTS. SteveB's post above is a pretty good summary of that article. But everyone should read the original for himself.


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## tjrobb (Jan 6, 2012)

I'm not sure there IS code for non-power failure emergency lighting, but it seems less than ideal to have patrons running into the furniture in an emergency.


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## dj41354 (Jan 7, 2012)

JChenault said:


> These look quite nice - but they do have a fan. Has anyone had experience with the unit and can fill me in on how noisy they are?


They're barely audible at all. The fan that's used is a low noise computer case fan that's powered at 8V instead of 12V. It's pretty big (85mm), so running it slowly still moves some good air. The result is a nicely cooled 4" cubed 50W light, and you wouldn't know there's a fan at all, unless you get right up to it and listen carefully.
Also, the fan speed doesn't modulate unless it's used above it's ambient temperature rating of 45C. Above 45C, the fan will begin to speed up in an effort to keep the LED's and internal electronics cool. At about 65C ambient, the fan will max out, and if the temp goes much higher, the LED's will shut off and the fixture will show an "over temperature" fault on the rear LCD.


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## FMEng (Jan 7, 2012)

dj41354 said:


> They're barely audible at all. The fan that's used is a low noise computer case fan that's powered at 8V instead of 12V.


 
I maintain a ton of broadcast grade equipment with cooling fans. The fans range from cheap to expensive, sleeve bearing to ball bearing. Trust me, you absolutely do not want a ceiling full of lights with cooling fans. In a few, short years, it will turn into a collosal maintenance headache. Fans are simply too unreliable, especially the crap made for the computer industry. They'll be making all sorts of obnoxious noises when the bearing start to go, and then freeze up causing the electronics to cook. 

Since you will be buying a large number of lights, you should be able to get a demo of the L&E and Light Source units, which appear to be well designed with convection cooling. I encourage you to stick with a light that is built for the purpose, such as those two.


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## dj41354 (Jan 7, 2012)

RickR said:


> Affineon makes some nice looking fixtures. The downlight series gets to be pretty bright. They are probably too bright and expensive for your use unless you redo the whole system.
> 
> On the code note: they can be set to go on when DMX is lost, for emergency conditions.
> 
> I've had demo units but haven't seen them in action. I will in the next few months if the installers get moving...


I'm curious about the "loss of DMX" feature... I get how it's intended to be used, but I'd think if it's really going to be used for "emergency" use, they'd need to be certified for that.. like UL924 for example. The problem is.. an emergency lighting system (using a light with this feature) needs at least two other system components, an un-interruptable power source, and the DMX source that feeds the light... so would all these components need UL924 if this system was the "sole" emergency lighting system? 
With traditional emergency lights, the power source and light are combined into one unit, and they're triggered directly from power loss, so I can see how this could be agency tested. But I don't quite see how a system with distributed parts could end up being UL924 listed.


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## SteveB (Jan 7, 2012)

dj41354 said:


> I'm curious about the "loss of DMX" feature... I get how it's intended to be used, but I'd think if it's really going to be used for "emergency" use, they'd need to be certified for that.. like UL924 for example. The problem is.. an emergency lighting system (using a light with this feature) needs at least two other system components, an un-interruptable power source, and the DMX source that feeds the light... so would all these components need UL924 if this system was the "sole" emergency lighting system?
> With traditional emergency lights, the power source and light are combined into one unit, and they're triggered directly from power loss, so I can see how this could be agency tested. But I don't quite see how a system with distributed parts could end up being UL924 listed.



Not all the components need to be listed as emergency components. Only elements that "HAVE" to function in a certain way, I.E. relay panels, dimmer rack control system (control module), etc... We have a new install where the house lighting will be an S4 Par type fixture. It will be dimmed off a standard Sensor style dimmer. The branch circuits will be routed thru a listed emergency branch circuit transfer panel. The fixture itself doesn't matter as long as it energizes upon transfer to the emergency system. To that end, the fixtures will be hard wired to the branch circuit wiring and there will be no connector on the fixture, which "might" prevent the fixture from operating when needed. 

We have in another theater an ETC Unison dimmer system, that provides for DMX controlled dimmable lighting as well as having installed a listed main feed relay panel to transfer power to generated emergency lighting. The Unison rack control electronics module is designed for and UL listed for emergency use and has a built in sensor that activates upon being energized from generated power and senses that normal building power is lost. It then drives the dimmers to full. The system does not sense loss of DMX as that actually might be present, given that the Unison house light control system is on a UPS and might well still be driving DMX (possibly at a level of zero) to the dimmer pack.


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## dj41354 (Jan 7, 2012)

FMEng said:


> I maintain a ton of broadcast grade equipment with cooling fans. The fans range from cheap to expensive, sleeve bearing to ball bearing. Trust me, you absolutely do not want a ceiling full of lights with cooling fans. In a few, short years, it will turn into a collosal maintenance headache. Fans are simply too unreliable, especially the crap made for the computer industry. They'll be making all sorts of obnoxious noises when the bearing start to go, and then freeze up causing the electronics to cook.


Not sure how to respond to this implied judgement, but the fan used is not "crap".. it's a quality 35,000hour, long life fan that we're running at half it's nominal speed... the fan is gonna last a long time. Additionally, the electronics aren't going to "cook".. the fixture measures it's internal temperature and shuts down if things get too hot (pretty sure I covered that in my earlier post). That being said, of course convection cooling is better, there's no fan to fail... but good luck finding a convection cooled 50W 4" cubed RGBW LED light that delivers 1200 lumens or a 50W 4" cubed all white (WNC) light that delivers 3100 lumens... that level of lumens/size performance is amongst the highest in the industry, and requires forced air cooling. So.. yeah, if you don't need that lumens/size performance, there's quite a few convection cooled lights to choose from, but if you need the smallest brightest light you can find, this is it... and did I mention that you almost can't even tell there's a fan, even when you're right next to it?


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## FMEng (Jan 8, 2012)

dj41354 said:


> Not sure how to respond to this implied judgement, but the fan used is not "crap".. it's a quality 35,000hour, long life fan that we're running at half it's nominal speed... the fan is gonna last a long time.


 
Sorry, I wasn't specifically targeting your product. I have no idea what kind of fan you use. The computer industry is notorious for using $4 fans that barely last through the warranty. So, when someone says "computer fan," I get worried.

I'll stick to what I said before, based on 25 years of doing electronic maintenance. All fans are a high failure item. They are a reasonable and necessary tradeoff in LED stage lighting where compactness and light intensity are important. In my humble opinion they have no business in a house light when there are better alternatives.

35,000 hours is a really long time for a stage light. In some facilities that time could fly by in house light use. It's roughly the equivalent of three years of continuous use. Stage lights tend to be used hard and replaced fairly often. A house light should be able to do its job for 30 years.


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## dj41354 (Jan 8, 2012)

FMEng said:


> I'll stick to what I said before, based on 25 years of doing electronic maintenance. All fans are a high failure item. They are a reasonable and necessary tradeoff in LED stage lighting where compactness and light intensity are important. In my humble opinion they have no business in a house light when there are better alternatives.
> 
> 35,000 hours is a really long time for a stage light. In some facilities that time could fly by in house light use. It's roughly the equivalent of three years of continuous use. Stage lights tend to be used hard and replaced fairly often. A house light should be able to do its job for 30 years.


No problems with opinions on feature tradeoffs and application appropriateness, everyone's entitled to his own, some more than others, based on their knowledge and experience. 
I'd like to explore the discussion about "life" a little more, I think it could be informative (especially to me)... first to clarify a couple of items: 
1) 35,000 hours of fan life is almost exactly 4 years of 24/7/365 use AT RATED SPEED.
2) At half rated speed, the life will we well beyond that. I could make a case that the life is doubled.. http://www.machinediagnostics.com/p...brication/Calculate Bearing Life (Timken).pdf but let's split the difference and estimate fan life at 50,000hours... which is 5.7years of 24/7/365 use.

A couple of questions:
1) is 24/7/365 of "lights on" correct? This doesn't exactly seem right to me.
2) At what point do you start worrying about the life of the LEDs? 50,000hours is a fairly typical LED life estimate. Granted LEDs don't usually fail catastrophically at the end of their rated life... but should the life of the LEDs be considered?
3) 30years seems like a stretch... no matter what you use... Is there anything that could reasonably be expected to last that long... without something having to be changed?


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## sk8rsdad (Jan 8, 2012)

My facility has ceiling lights that have been running for over 15 years without any maintenance, I expect them to last another 15 or more years because they are using 500W, 140V lamps and operating on dimmers that max out at 120V yet seldom run above 50%. This is a good thing because they are very difficult to access. I have considered changing them out for LED but would never install any fixture with fans, because fans accumulate dust which means they need regular maintenance. Regular maintenance on something that is difficult to access drives up the operating expenses since I have to rent lifts or scaffolding that to date I have not needed to rent.

I can replace a lamp with a pole and basket. I don't expect to have to replace the socket that holds the lamp during my lifetime. It might happen, but it is unlikely. 30 years is a reasonable lifespan for all manner of things. When was the last time you replaced the wiring in your house, or the front door, or the drywall?


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## FMEng (Jan 8, 2012)

dj41354 said:


> 1) 35,000 hours of fan life is almost exactly 4 years of 24/7/365 use AT RATED SPEED.
> 2) At half rated speed, the life will we well beyond that. I could make a case that the life is doubled..


 
You have done your homework, which is commendable. The paper doesn't really address the most common cause of fan failure, which is lubricant loss and breakdown. There is no way to replenish the lubricant in fans. The fans are exposed to heat and the lubricant fails more quickly than anticipated.

Generally, ball bearing fans seem to last the longest, but the majority of small fans use sleeve bearings. It's easy to overlook that sleeve bearing fans are happiest with the shaft in a horizontal orientation, otherwise the lubricate migrates out. I can't tell you how many vertical shaft sleeve bearing fans I have had to change. In those cases, the designer didn't know what he/she was doing when they selected the fan or they couldn't spend the extra money to do it correctly.


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## shiben (Jan 8, 2012)

sk8rsdad said:


> When was the last time you replaced the wiring in your house, or the front door, or the drywall?


 
I have replaced all of these things since I moved from a school to my parents house (In August). Just sayn...


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## sk8rsdad (Jan 8, 2012)

shiben said:


> I have replaced all of these things since I moved from a school to my parents house (In August). Just sayn...


 
Wow. It wore out in less than 30 years? Must have been American-made.


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## STEVETERRY (Jan 8, 2012)

JChenault said:


> I'm looking to specify some LED units for our houselights. The intent is ( as part of a remodel) to replace the <expletive deleted> R30 floods that keep burning out, with something that will not burn out, and that we can control more easily using our console.
> 
> My working plan is to surface mount some kind of unit on the ceiling pointing down for house lights. ( We could recess if necessary )
> 
> ...


 
I would add to these requirements:

--An effective and UL924-listed method of using some of these LED luminaires as an emergency lighting source.

Battery pack unit equipment seems absurd when we have the potential for an LED luminaire that can also satisfy the requirements for emergency lighting.

ST


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## VCTMike (Jan 11, 2012)

gafftapegreenia said:


> There is this from The Light Source
> 
> 
> LED Dimming 100 Watt Fresnel House Light
> ...


 

Yikes! I just got a quote on the Light Source fixtures... $1600 each list - about $1,200 net. Gotta start saving up some pennies if I'm gonna use them.


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## gafftapegreenia (Jan 11, 2012)

VCTMike said:


> Yikes! I just got a quote on the Light Source fixtures... $1600 each list - about $1,200 net. Gotta start saving up some pennies if I'm gonna use them.


 
Welcome to the reality of using LED's effectively.


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## Beans45601 (Jan 12, 2012)

I was under the impression that this light source house light had the same engine as their led Fresnel that sells for under $600 on. BMI. I suppose that isn't correct at this cost?


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## gafftapegreenia (Jan 12, 2012)

Beans45601 said:


> I was under the impression that this light source house light had the same engine as their led Fresnel that sells for under $600 on. BMI. I suppose that isn't correct at this cost?



That's correct, but the house light has DMX built in and thus is dimmable, whereas the work light is on/off. 

Perhaps the worklight is dimmable with some of those Doug Fleenor low wattage dimmers.


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## Beans45601 (Jan 12, 2012)

gafftapegreenia said:


> That's correct, but the house light has DMX built in and thus is dimmable, whereas the work light is on/off.
> 
> Perhaps the worklight is dimmable with some of those Doug Fleenor low wattage dimmers.


 
Ah, yes I did not notice this. Might be a fun mod for someone...


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## KenLager (Jan 12, 2012)

Hey Guys,

Just yesterday heard about a new product. ARC System LED houslight fixtures by GDS at BluesSystem CueSystem LiteWare MobalTester SMConsole MotorControl Haven't researched them or actually seen one yet, but they looked like an interesting new idea.


Ken Lager
Motorized Rigging Solutions


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## sk8rsdad (Jan 12, 2012)

While we're posting about random suppliers. 
Dial Light High Bays
Note their dimmable version uses 0-10VDC and does not dim below 15%.


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## Esoteric (Jan 12, 2012)

We strongly recommend the Affineon gear. Great stuff. Just wish someone would come up with the scratch to actually allow us to install it.

The blink at the end of even the best LED replacement lamp is too much for me. Very distracting.


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## gafftapegreenia (Mar 7, 2012)

Had to revive this thread because Altman has released an LED pendant that can be dimmed through DMX OR a regular dimmer. 
Altman Lighting: New LED Downlight-The Chalice


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