# Confined stage access and ADA



## Midnight (Oct 3, 2011)

Hello Everyone,

I have been lurking around for a while now and absolutely love this site.
I own The 13th Gate Haunted House in Baton Rouge (www.13thgate.com) and was wondering if the geniuses on this site could offer some advice.

Can anyone tell me the ADA codes for confined stage access (catwalks, actor crawls, hideaways for magic acts, etc).

We created an underground tunnel system for our stage show. A cemetery where the dead actually crawl out of the graves at the finale and I have the state fire marshal telling me he can't let us use it because he can't find any codes on it. Basically he cited that 

*g) 4.1.1(3) EMPLOYEE WORK AREAS shall be designed and constructed so thatindividuals with disabilities can approach, enter and exit. (...A PLATFORM LIFTIS PERMITTED TO ACCESS PERFORMING AREAS IN ASSEMBLY OCCUPANCIES AS PER4.1.3(5)). *

I know that catwalks and confined hiding areas on magic acts don't require this. Also my actors have been cast already and don't have disabilities. Plus wheelchaired actors couldn't crawl through this 4' underground pipe anyway.

Anyone have anything that would help, it would be greatly appreciated.

Love the Site!


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## Footer (Oct 3, 2011)

First, a theatrical production is the one places where you are allowed to hire and not hire someone based on age, sex, weight, body type, disability, physical fitness, race, and all the other stuff that would get you sued out of existence in the regular world. Because this is part of a stage production, ADA and building codes are really out the window. In reality, this piece of a "work of art" and code does not apply. 

Also, ADA code requires that all employees with disability's get "reasonable accommodation" made for them. General industry is no going to bring in a disabled person to walk high steel. However, they might put them in a machine they could operate with just their hands. You would not put a disabled person in the tunnel, but you would put them somewhere else in the show. 

Your fire marshal might be going a bit over the deep end. ADA requires general access however it does not require all access.


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## Midnight (Oct 3, 2011)

Footer said:


> First, a theatrical production is the one places where you are allowed to hire and not hire someone based on age, sex, weight, body type, disability, physical fitness, race, and all the other stuff that would get you sued out of existence in the regular world. Because this is part of a stage production, ADA and building codes are really out the window. In reality, this piece of a "work of art" and code does not apply.
> 
> Also, ADA code requires that all employees with disability's get "reasonable accommodation" made for them. General industry is no going to bring in a disabled person to walk high steel. However, they might put them in a machine they could operate with just their hands. You would not put a disabled person in the tunnel, but you would put them somewhere else in the show.
> 
> Your fire marshal might be going a bit over the deep end. ADA requires general access however it does not require all access.


 

Thank you. This is what happens when you build something outside of the box.


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## Midnight (Oct 3, 2011)

Midnight said:


> Thank you. This is what happens when you build something outside of the box.


 

Any codes I can cite on this? Something that he can read himself?


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## Footer (Oct 3, 2011)

Midnight said:


> Thank you. This is what happens when you build something outside of the box.


 
Remember, don't get on the fire marshals bad side by throwing code back in his/her face. Many don't understand the industry and how code applies.


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## Midnight (Oct 3, 2011)

Footer said:


> Remember, don't get on the fire marshals bad side by throwing code back in his/her face. Many don't understand the industry and how code applies.


 

Too late for that. He is telling me he is unaware of a code for it so he doesn't want to let us use it until he can figure it out... in the meantime my actors can't perform.

I am going to show him whatever I can find.

Thanks for the input guys.


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## SteveB (Oct 3, 2011)

Note that fire marshall's and/or the local fire department (it can be either/or) does not usually enforce ADA compliance. Their purveyance is life safety and ADA compliance is not a life safety issue. ADA is usually under the building department (at least it is here in NYC). 

So he may not be preventing use based on ADA but instead on other code issues such as emergency egress lighting, exit signage, use of space as part of the performance, sprinklers, scenic elements meeting local fire code, etc... 

You might want to clarify this with him/her.


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## Midnight (Oct 3, 2011)

SteveB said:


> Note that fire marshall's and/or the local fire department (it can be either/or) does not usually enforce ADA compliance. Their purveyance is life safety and ADA compliance is not a life safety issue. ADA is usually under the building department (at least it is here in NYC).
> 
> So he may not be preventing use based on ADA but instead on other code issues such as emergency egress lighting, exit signage, use of space as part of the performance, sprinklers, scenic elements meeting local fire code, etc...
> 
> You might want to clarify this with him/her.


 

No we have dealt with life safety and building codes already and we meet or exceed their requirements on this. They are enforcing ADA codes now (state level). The code violation I posted is ADA.

*g) 4.1.1(3) EMPLOYEE WORK AREAS shall be designed and constructed so thatindividuals with disabilities can approach, enter and exit. (...A **PLATFORM** LIFTIS PERMITTED TO ACCESS PERFORMING AREAS IN ASSEMBLY OCCUPANCIES AS PER4.1.3(5)). *


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## Van (Oct 3, 2011)

I understand him erring on the side of caution, but this is truly a case of enforcement outside his baliwick. Fire and Life/safety yes, Occupational access codes not really. IMHO. < 'course I'm not a lawyer and I do not play one on tv> Yes, as previoulsy stated there are exceptions for artistic installations. Imagnie if "Ka" or "O" had to have ADA access for it's performers! I don't have the time to go digging right now or I'd quote you one of those exceptions.


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## SteveB (Oct 3, 2011)

Midnight said:


> No we have dealt with life safety and building codes already and we meet or exceed their requirements on this. They are enforcing ADA codes now (state level). The code violation I posted is ADA.
> 
> *g) 4.1.1(3) EMPLOYEE WORK AREAS shall be designed and constructed so thatindividuals with disabilities can approach, enter and exit. (...A **PLATFORM** LIFTIS PERMITTED TO ACCESS PERFORMING AREAS IN ASSEMBLY OCCUPANCIES AS PER4.1.3(5)). *



Possibly this is why he/she does not know what code to enforce, as it's ADA and fire marshalls do not usually enforce these codes. Note of course that every state and city does it different, but it's sounds odd to me.


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## Midnight (Oct 4, 2011)

It got passed this morning. They brought in their ADA advisor who saw nothing wrong with it. 

Thanks again guys for the input.


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## Footer (Oct 4, 2011)

Midnight said:


> It got passed this morning. They brought in their ADA advisor who saw nothing wrong with it.
> 
> Thanks again guys for the input.



Good to hear, hope the show goes well/sells well. I have always wanted to but never done any of the haunted house or other related things.


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## museav (Oct 4, 2011)

Some state and local local jurisdictions may require an ADA compliance inspection, as do Department of Justice facilities, and many people will pursue voluntary ADA compliance inspections using ADA consultants as more of a peremptory or proactive action. However, actual ADA compliance is typically determined when a complaint is filed and found to have not have merit.

I am much more familiar with the aspects of ADA dealing with accessibility and facilities design and construction, however I believe that you need to be careful about assuming that work areas in theaters do not have to comply with ADA. In certain situations you may have work areas that do not have to be accessible but doing so may require other 'comparable' opportunities being available for those who are disabled. And you may have trouble arguing why some areas such as FOH and booths are not accessible if you don't offer some other equivalent opportunities. I understand that this is a huge consideration for people like Disney.


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## SteveB (Oct 4, 2011)

As a side note to requirements:

The Appalachian Mountain Club, a New England based hiking and outdoors non-profit, operates 8 mountain hostels in the White Mountains of New Hampshire, all high up in the hills, all accessible only via hiking trails that generally require some strenuous hiking over often times very rocky and steep terrain to get to. All are located on US Forest Service property. These "huts" have been in existence for about 100 years. 

The Lake of the Clouds hut, the one closest to Mt Washington, underwent a renovation a few years back and as part of the renovation, the USFS told them that as a result of being located on USFS property, they had to make the hut ADA compliant. The AMC, otherwise a fairly liberally minded and "green" organization, they pioneered the use of solar powered out-houses as example, took exception to the need to make a hut at 6,000 ft elevation in the mountains accessible to wheelchair bound potential hut users. If you have ever hiked in these mountains, you can see their point that it is completely impossible for a wheel chair to be rolled to the hut. Too many rocks, trail too steep, etc...

To make a point, someone who is wheelchair bound had some friends help him get winched up the mountain to the hut. The USFS took notice and insisted.

The Lake of the Cloud hut now has a wheelchair ramp up to the front porch as well as bathrooms (solar powered) that allow a person in a wheel chair to use the bathroom. From what I know, other then that one individual who got winched up the hillside, no other wheelchair bound user has ever visited. That user, as BTW, got carried up to the top of the mountain where he took the van down the auto road, or so the story goes. 

I have no comment on all this


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