# Bracket for mounting pipe to block wall ?



## JSFox (Mar 29, 2007)

I need to mount a bunch of pipe along the side and back block walls of our stage for hanging instruments for a blackbox show. In the past I've installed some brackets that support the pipe about 14" out from the wall and are designed with about a 12" high plate that mounts to the block. I can't find these anywhere. Is anyone familiar with what I'm talking about? Know where I can get them?

Thanks,


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## gafftaper (Mar 29, 2007)

Did you try Grainger? They have a lot of flanges. I think what you are looking for is probably a custom weld job. Buy some flanges and steel plate and make friends with someone in an auto shop or at a nearby university theater department.


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## Van (Mar 29, 2007)

Boy, I'm at a loss. I think Gaff might be right, it sort of sounds like a custom job, or I'm just not visualizing it properly. I would like to interject, if I may, and you may already know this, if these pies are going to be load bearing in any way you can't simply anchor them to a CMU wall. You have to use a spacer. Allow me to explain, for the edification of those not wise in te way of CMU < cinder blocks > < CMU stands for Concrete Masonry Unit> There are a couple of ways a CMU wall can be constructed. The first and fastest is simply stacking them. You run rebar down them every once in a awhile ad motar them together, this is a pretty common construction technique. the second way is to do t the fast way then every once in a while fill the block with concrete. If your wall is a hollow CMU construction and you put anchors into it then put any type of torsional stress on the flange the block will fail and the achors will rip right through it. The way a structural engineer will tell you to do it would be as follows. Let's say you are using 1/2" bolts get a piece of 3/4" scd#40 pipe drill your holes in the CMU using a 1" masonry bit. You must drill all tthe way through to the outside of the wall. Insert the pipes into the holes. Oh they need to be cut to about a 1/16th longer than the CMU is thick ie f its a 9" cmu block than cut your pipes to 9 1/16th inches. you may want to use some chaulk to hold them in place and to seal them against moisture intrusion s the outside of the block is and exterior face. At the least you will need another plate on the outside of the wall with the same or larger dimensions as the interior plate. Now place the bolts, with the heads on the outside of the wall. Install your interior plate / flange your washers, nuts and torque them down. When you properly torque the bolts the pipe spacers should squish enough that the plate will be tight to the wall. 
Important tips:
Either, use some construction epoxy on the bolt heads to secure them to the outside plate prior to installing the nuts and interior flange, OR get a buddy and a walkie talkie. Yes I spent a week on an install job outside in the rain holding a wrench. 
This is not just me being a nervous ninny this is the technicque which I have had to use on serveral occasions when installing new pipe grids into theatres. I know it a lot of work but beleive me it much better than someone getting killed from a failure of the CMU. 

Sorry for the long windedness and I apologize if you already know this. I thought it would be important for others to read. I kind of feel this is sort of bordering on the topic of rigging < or maybe just my post is > If so Dave feel free to delete it.


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## tss_rocks (Mar 29, 2007)

I think AIS or "Alvin" clamps may work...


Here's a diagram of some of the different kinds.
http://www.alvinindustrial.com/product.asp?ProductTypeID=3
Here's their site... http://www.alvinindustrial.com/
I've used these in several installations, they work great!
You should be able to find them at a local industrial supplier that does rigging, electrical/machining supply, etc.


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## gafftaper (Mar 29, 2007)

tss_rocks said:


> I think AIS or "Alvin" clamps may work...



No I think you need a larger plate to distribute the weight more. The 12 inch variety you described would be perfect if you could find them. At least a standard flange would get you about a 6 inch diameter base. Which would probably be ok if you do the full proper mounting process that Van described.


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## icewolf08 (Mar 29, 2007)

I second gafftaper in feeling that if you are going to be hanging a pipe 12"-14" from the wall, a simple flange won't be able to support the cantilever forces that will be applied. Here is an easy, though possibly a little more costly solution: run a pipe between two floor mounted vertical booms. This is probably the safest solution, and also doesn't involve modifying the structure of the theatre which as was previously mentioned, could be a bad idea.


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## fosstech (Mar 30, 2007)

You don't happen to have any type of grid, you do? If so, hanging the pipes with aircraft cable would be a much better (and easier) option.

But of course if you don't have one, don't pay attention to me


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## wolf825 (Mar 30, 2007)

I would point out that rigging or suspending pipe or anything over someones head is a dangerous deal... As has been pointed out--just cause something can hold an item does not mean it can handle the torque or weight pressing in an offset direction..and the anchoring of such in to Block walls needs to be done in a thorough and secure way using rated hardware. I would not like to trust my safety neccessarily to a few molly bolts.. Block walls are great from ground to cieling support stacking--but pulling them in sideways with any significant weight or torque is not always a structurally sound idea without proper hardware and anchoring... Spanning your anchors over several blocks will distribute the "pull" significantly... 

Just "Officer Safety" spouting off making sure this is considered and these consideration points are mentioned..  

-w


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## Van (Mar 30, 2007)

wolf825 said:


> I would point out that rigging or suspending pipe or anything over someones head is a dangerous deal... As has been pointed out--just cause something can hold an item does not mean it can handle the torque or weight pressing in an offset direction..and the anchoring of such in to Block walls needs to be done in a thorough and secure way using rated hardware. I would not like to trust my safety neccessarily to a few molly bolts.. Block walls are great from ground to cieling support stacking--but pulling them in sideways with any significant weight or torque is not always a structurally sound idea without proper hardware and anchoring... Spanning your anchors over several blocks will distribute the "pull" significantly...
> 
> Just "Officer Safety" spouting off making sure this is considered and these consideration points are mentioned..


 

Just to check, did you read my post ? Second Molly bolts are not rated, and have no place hanging anything other than a picture frame. Any expanding type <molly> friction type < redhead > or goofy type < toggle bolt> is simply not acceptable for this type of install into a CMU wall.


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## gafftaper (Mar 30, 2007)

I'm actually looking at possibly building a two story high costume rack out of pipe for my new costume storage room (it's got a 20 foot ceiling, might as well use that space). My plan is to run heavy pipe from floor to ceiling and the anchor it to the wall in the middle for stability, but the load will all be on the floor. It accomplishes the same job but is a much easier solution to safely implement. By the way, I also haven't given up on a wood structure that just has pipe to hang clothes on yet. I still have to do a cost analysis of the two approaches first.


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## wolf825 (Mar 30, 2007)

Van said:


> Just to check, did you read my post ? Second Molly bolts are not rated, and have no place hanging anything other than a picture frame. Any expanding type <molly> friction type < redhead > or goofy type < toggle bolt> is simply not acceptable for this type of install into a CMU wall.




Yes I did...but was not sure others after you noted this danger or topic. I noted you said that 'if you were off topic' that it was OK for Dave to delete this--and IMO you are not off topic and spot on in addressing the first and foremost thought on this subject--safety. I was just reinforcing your post about safety concerns and the dangers, so you were not a lone voice to bring up the safety considerations and for folks to be very careful....

Deleting a topic when there is a risk is not neccesarily the way to go--as it leaves questions and concerns unanswered... This topic is not about how to instal or rig--its asking for what kind of plates are out there..and there are various options out there...and while this is allowable for topic (not like doin pyro gags or step by step how to rig stuff overhead), to ask what kind of equipment is out there is fine to learn about--but the subject of Safety and finding the RIGHT plate and what factors to consider, and using proper anchoring for whomever is using the plate or hiring professinal installers etc, should not go without Safety concerns being addressed and reinforced for the benefit of the original poster to consider if they should find a suitable plate....

-w


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## Van (Mar 30, 2007)

Cool ! I just realized I might not have worded my response to you in the best way. What i should have said was did you reveiw my post, since you are a senior team memeber I figured you'd have the authority to delete my post or not. Sorry, when i just re-read my post I realised it soundd sort of snooty < not that I'm above that > and that was not my intention. Thanks for the back up. !


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## JSFox (Mar 31, 2007)

Thanks all. One option I'm looking at is unistrut. I can do vertical members running up the wall about every 8' and then install P2548 brackets where I need a hang pipe and a P1431 clamp on top to hold the pipe. I'm thinking we might run the vertical members from about 4' above stage floor to about 24' (they conveniently come in 20' lengths for $36. This would allow me to also use them as meatracks along the wall when extra instrument storage is needed.

Thoughts?


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## icewolf08 (Mar 31, 2007)

Unistrut nuts = Boingy Nuts!


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## Van (Mar 31, 2007)

JSFox said:


> Thanks all. One option I'm looking at is unistrut. I can do vertical members running up the wall about every 8' and then install P2548 brackets where I need a hang pipe and a P1431 clamp on top to hold the pipe. I'm thinking we might run the vertical members from about 4' above stage floor to about 24' (they conveniently come in 20' lengths for $36. This would allow me to also use them as meatracks along the wall when extra instrument storage is needed.
> 
> Thoughts?


 
Unistrut is a great thing. You can greatly reduce the amount of work necessary by installing the unistrut with a goodly thick bead of construction epoxy along the outside edges of the backside, in addition to the bolts used to hold it to the wall. There are so many options for things that hook into unistrut ! I love it.


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## gafftaper (Apr 1, 2007)

Van said:


> Unistrut is a great thing. You can greatly reduce the amount of work necessary by installing the unistrut with a goodly thick bead of construction epoxy along the outside edges of the backside, in addition to the bolts used to hold it to the wall. There are so many options for things that hook into unistrut ! I love it.



My black box is going to have 5 catwalks for lighting access and unistrut underneath for even more fun. Any suggestions on Unistrut suppliers for clamp on gadgets?


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## Van (Apr 1, 2007)

gafftaper said:


> My black box is going to have 5 catwalks for lighting access and unistrut underneath for even more fun. Any suggestions on Unistrut suppliers for clamp on gadgets?


 

http://www.mcmaster.com/nav/framewo...&RelatedCtlgPgs=1459,1460&term=Strut+Channels

mcmaster and Carr, Grainger carries some too. 'course that's the cool thing about Unistrut you can make all sorts of stuff for it too.


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## Chris15 (Apr 1, 2007)

Van said:


> http://www.mcmaster.com/nav/framewo...&RelatedCtlgPgs=1459,1460&term=Strut+Channels
> 
> mcmaster and Carr, Grainger carries some too. 'course that's the cool thing about Unistrut you can make all sorts of stuff for it too.



Hate to tell you Van, but that link is stuffed...


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## Van (Apr 1, 2007)

Chris15 said:


> Hate to tell you Van, but that link is stuffed...


Argh!, I forgot I did a search, and that's a search results page. OhWell McMaster.com and do a search for Unistrut. Thanks Chris !


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## JSFox (Apr 2, 2007)

Van, what is the purpose of the epoxy?


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## Van (Apr 2, 2007)

JSFox said:


> Van, what is the purpose of the epoxy?


 
Biggest reason is to help spread the load. It helps reduce the point load on any one fastener. If this is just hanging a couple of thing or making a shelf, no big deal. I guess I inferred, possibly wrongly, from your first post that you were to be suspending pipes. That made me think of potential load bearing issues when coupled to a CMU wall. Like I said I may be over cautious on some things, given my background doing installs of grids, So ignore me if I'm overboard, on this one.


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## JSFox (Apr 4, 2007)

Not overboard at all. We are planning to have pipe on it with lights. We put it up this afternoon with an epoxy bead. Thanks for the idea.


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## Scout (Apr 6, 2007)

I'm with Van 100% on this one. I have a friend who is enjoying his retirement now as a result of a serious accident involving a truss that was mounted improperly to a block wall. This sort of thing ideally should be engineered, but Van's instructions sound good. Cheers!


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