# Cue lights... RF or cabled or what?



## Red_Carpet (Feb 26, 2021)

Hi all,
Again, this old chestnut raises its head. (sorry to all those who find this boring).
This time I am on a near-to-zero budget.


CUE LIGHTS
I am in the position again to create some new cue lights for a travelling Dramatics Group.
The stage and the control-desk are always in different places so no Permanent wire trunking etc.
Their requirements are.. 3 x (different coloured) Cue Lights with a controller for the Lights & Sound Controller on the control-desk.
These guys want the old-fashioned "one-light cue-light" version. i.e. ON=GET READY, OFF=GO
The cue lights should be a type of 12v bulb on a small mount (like a piece of wood) may be a car indicator (Red, orange or green) (These I already have in my stock).
The normal (and maximum) distance between the lighting box and the stage (cable distance = 50 meters) (line of sight = 30m).
Now, I want a nice control box with 4 good lit(*) switches 1=Mains and channels 1-3 . (* they need to be lit so the operator knows if the button has been pressed)
So from what I have researched, I see the options to transmit between Control-Box and Cue-lights are 1) cable or 2) RF
RF Option
I do not want to use those awful faffy hand-held RF remote-controls - I want a good strong control-box. ( I am not enough of a competant electronics-electrician to de-contruct a hand-held remote-controller either.)
I do not want to use the kinetic wall switches to transmit an RF signal as they are too large and do not light up.
I do not want to use an app on a smart-phone.
I could use and arduino-microcontroller and a multi-channel-RF-transmitter to send a RF signal when a button is pressed (but I would rather not)
Maybe 3 large-ish project boxes with and 12v-car-indicator lamp on the top with an RF receiver inside - however I also do not want batteries anywhere near this project.
So perhaps a cue-station-box (sited by the stage) plugged into the mains with three cables coming out of it with three pygmy-bulbs on a block of wood (Looks are not 100% important at the moment.) Inside this cue-station-box would hold a transformer to power the 3-channel RF receiver-relays and the three 12v bulbs.
Pros:
More Hi-tec,
more flexible.
Cons:
*I can't find the RF rcvr and transmit modules. *
More expensive if I use a micro-controller:Arduino etc

Cable Option
This would be the easiest but not very hi-tech!. Just run a master multi-core cable from control-box to three separate lights (maybe with a cue-station-box splicing the multi-core to a two cable system to power the lights).
I would use mains switches with mains powered pilot bulbs on the control-box.
Pros:
Easier to wire up
Cons:
Lots of cable
more expensive

Summary:
I think an RF option would be good but I have trawled through the net and can't find something suitable.

Anyone got any ideas or thoughts.
Thanks very much


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## soundman (Feb 26, 2021)

My skills lack in RF so personally I would look at a wifi or cable based solution. 

It looks like there are some RS 485 boards that would make getting two arduinos to talk pretty easy. There is some example code that you should be able to tweak for a cue light system pretty easily. Because it only uses two wires you could use 3 pin XLR cable to get them talking. 

I've played around with Node MCU clones and wifi for a few projects. I would play around with using modbus to get the two boards to talking. 

From them its a few relay boards and PSUs and you are off to the races.


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## microstar (Feb 26, 2021)

May be a bit of a kluge but....
cheap 3-chan. DMX console>Wireless DMX transmitter>Wireless DMX receiver> 3-chan DMX relay board>indicator lights?


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## DrewE (Feb 26, 2021)

My first thought is to go with a wired system using Cat 5 (or Cat 6 or whatever) ethernet cabling. If LEDs were used for the cue lights, it would be trivial to simply have them powered from the master station through the cable, requiring only pugging in the box with the LED to the cable to the master station. If the boxes had two (or three) RJ connectors on them you could daisy-chain them as needed, or form other topologies as was convenient. I'd wire it something like this (the indicators for the other cues are similar, just connected to different pairs of wire):




The current limiting resistor values may need tweaking, depending on the lighting conditions and the LED colors used. For ordinary red/green/yellow LEDs, 560 ohms gives a forward current of approximately 20 mA with a 12V supply, which would probably be pretty bright. Blue and white LEDs have a higher forward voltage and so may need somewhat smaller resistors. By having the current limiting resistors in the indicator boxes, you could connect a few of the same cue together and they'd all illuminate properly.

If the 12V supply is capable of more than, say, 2A, it would be well to put a fuse in series with the main power switch to make sure the cable's ampacity cannot be exceeded in the case of a short circuit. A couple hundred milliamps or so should be plenty if the shown values are used (and there are not more than a handful of cue light boxes).


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## Red_Carpet (Feb 26, 2021)

@DrewE Wow - what an answer Thank you very much for the time you spent on this. Unfortunately it is way way over my head, I sort of understand it but as to making it I am afraid that I can not.


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## Red_Carpet (Feb 26, 2021)

Hi @microstar , this is a great option, thanks. I had thought of this a while ago and made a good leap forward when I tried it. However I hit a wall and I can not remember for the life of me what my problem was. I must dig it the old project out from "Old projects" cupboard. Thanks.


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## Red_Carpet (Feb 26, 2021)

Very interesting reply @soundman I have a couple of nodemcu's knocking about somewhere I must drag them out again. Thank you for your input.


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## StradivariusBone (Feb 26, 2021)

So not cue lights as we would think of them in this context, but I've recently discovered Tally Arbiter which is some really clever software created to work with tally lights on video cameras. I've wondered if it could be also adapted for use as a cue light. It does allow OSC commands to fire sources, and it works with these little guys over WiFi. 

We've been using this for camera work and it is pretty simple and reliable. The only issue is battery life is iffy. You'd want to hardwire the matrix displays


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## Red_Carpet (Feb 27, 2021)

@StradivariusBone - thanks for that - interesting read. I see where you are coming from.
Out of all these methods I may look more seriously at the DMX option. It is a shame, however, that all we have (need) is such a simple thing.
To be able to switch a light on to cue somebody - that is all it is and yet we have to go round so many options, jump through so many hoops just to achieve this. 
No wonder the people that sell these systems charge the earth for it. It could do with someone to make a cheap solution, perhaps open a start up business etc. I think it could easily be achieved with a budget of about £50-£70. Yet companies who sell cue light systems want hundreds and hundreds ($'s or £'s !). 

Thanx :¬)


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## RonHebbard (Feb 27, 2021)

Red_Carpet said:


> @StradivariusBone - thanks for that - interesting read. I see where you are coming from.
> Out of all these methods I may look more seriously at the DMX option. It is a shame, however, that all we have (need) is such a simple thing.
> To be able to switch a light on to cue somebody - that is all it is and yet we have to go round so many options, jump through so many hoops just to achieve this.
> No wonder the people that sell these systems charge the earth for it. It could do with someone to make a cheap solution, perhaps open a start up business etc. I think it could easily be achieved with a budget of about £50-£70. Yet companies who sell cue light systems want hundreds and hundreds ($'s or £'s !).
> ...


 *@Red_Carpet * For an ultra low cost option, have you considered a hand-held flashlight with three pieces of gel in your SM's other hand? 
Know when I'm pulling your leg; I'll pull your other leg next time to restore your normal gait. 
Toodleoo! 
Ron (Posting from one of the colonies) Hebbard


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## microstar (Feb 27, 2021)

Red_Carpet said:


> @StradivariusBone - thanks for that - interesting read. I see where you are coming from.
> Out of all these methods I may look more seriously at the DMX option. It is a shame, however, that all we have (need) is such a simple thing.
> To be able to switch a light on to cue somebody - that is all it is and yet we have to go round so many options, jump through so many hoops just to achieve this.
> No wonder the people that sell these systems charge the earth for it. It could do with someone to make a cheap solution, perhaps open a start up business etc. I think it could easily be achieved with a budget of about £50-£70. Yet companies who sell cue light systems want hundreds and hundreds ($'s or £'s !).
> ...


My DMX kluge solution posted above can be had for a total of $93: DMX relay @ $20 new, Wireless pair @ $40 new, Obey3 console @ $33 used, all shipping included. All you need are the indicator lights for the relays. So £67?
EDIT: just noted there are red LED's for each relay, so your indicator lights are built in. One could easily replace two of the red with a yellow and a green and there you have it, a separate color for each cue light.


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## jtweigandt (Feb 27, 2021)

Add a night light, and here you go for 20 bucks a channel.. or use 3 way switching and 2 receivers per channel, and you
can both cue and remote user cancel confirm 
or just 1 way switch and 2 recievers so both master and slave can have matching lights.


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## Ben Stiegler (Feb 27, 2021)

RonHebbard said:


> *@Red_Carpet * For an ultra low cost option, have you considered a hand-held flashlight with three pieces of gel in your SM's other hand?
> Know when I'm pulling your leg; I'll pull your other leg next time to restore your normal gait.
> Toodleoo!
> Ron (Posting from one of the colonies) Hebbard


that's genius, Ron! Or a 3 color flashlight and a piece of fiber optic cable to bring the photons closer to the stage(box).

I also support using LEDs, not automobile brake lamps. LED inside a bit of pie-tin homemade reflector inside a black shoebox or background is going to be pretty visible to actors but shielded from audience.

Also - some LEDs are multi-colored, which makes the stage device size smaller by 2/3


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## Ben Stiegler (Feb 27, 2021)

jtweigandt said:


> Add a night light, and here you go for 20 bucks a channel.. or use 3 way switching and 2 receivers per channel, and you
> can both cue and remote user cancel confirm
> or just 1 way switch and 2 recievers so both master and slave can have matching lights.


watch out for interference, being on the wrong power leg, etc.


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## jtweigandt (Feb 27, 2021)

Ben Stiegler said:


> watch out for interference, being on the wrong power leg, etc.


The one that I had in the house, was actually a battery operated sender.. and an rf signal to the plug.. like a glorified garage door opener.. so there's that. I'd have to dig into this particular one to see. But there's lots of variations out there.


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## JonCarter (Feb 27, 2021)

This sounds like another case of "Throw technology at what can be solved much more simply." The battery, switches, lamps/LEDs and a few feet of wire would be my choice.


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## RonHebbard (Feb 27, 2021)

Ben Stiegler said:


> watch out for interference, being on the wrong power leg, etc.


 *@Ben Stiegler* You've created a spark that's lit the accumulated kindling of my mind; this will definitely define: TLDR; brace yourself, you've been forewarned (I suspect I'll be three hours typing this assuming I can keep it on track without veering too far off course).

When I began working in Stratford, Ontario's Stratford Shakespearean Festival's main stage thrust theatre in 1977, its auditorium's orchestra and balcony seating levels wrapped 220 degrees around its thrust stage seating ~2,400+ patrons.
Equity limited performers to 8 performances per week; with cross-casting and understudies, we often presented up to 11 performances in the heat of a busy / popular / bums in seats / let's make money season.

Stratford operated as a repertory company.
Many / most productions had custom crafted floors.
Opening with 3 or 4 productions per venue, adding another 3 or 4 mid-season (Typically mid August) resulted in a lot of rehearsals, performances and floors in storage.

Obvious spike marks were considered unpardonable sins in Stratford.
Spike marks were typically tiny slivers of spike tape, tiny slivers of glow tape, with Scotch 3M Magic tape applied to help them survive the rigors of foot traffic and the never-ending changeovers (Post evening performance into the next morning's rehearsal, into the afternoon's rehearsal or performance, into the evening's performance which brings us full-circle with a changeover post the evening performance.)

You've got the concept: Floors had to withstand an awful lot of abuse and handling.

Stage managers' kept detailed measured drawings and notes, checked their floors prior to every rehearsal / performance and replaced spikes as required.

When Dymo dots became available in a myriad of colours, Dymo Dots became the spike marks of choice.

One of the problems: Seeing spike marks during black outs so performers and / or props could be accurately in position when the lights came up for the next act / scene.

I'll move this along to how battery powered LEDs provided the ULTIMATE answer.

Let's begin with the construction of a typical floor:
- Most floors were constructed of 3/4" good quality plywood topped with good quality 1/4" Masonite; the Masonite was often routed with Vee grooves to look like tiles, cobblestones, yada, yada; custom painted and often with bumps / lumps of fibre glass applied to provide character and texture.
- Floors were sectional, usually with their joints disguised by grout lines et al, and sized for rapid handling by two stagehands and quasi convenient storage in the limited space back stage.
- The undersides of floors were edged with 1 x 3 glued and screwed in position with gaps only large enough to accommodate coffin locks to draw the sections tightly together (Stratford modified their coffin locks by welding short lengths of drill rod into the female coffin locks to prevent lateral movement when wrenching the sections together.)
- The undersides of the 1 x 3's had ~3" pads of rubber glued in place to gain clearance, protect the actual stage [which was often used for productions with tighter budgets as well as for concerts on Equity free days] and minimize any sliding tendencies.

LED's:
Electronics Technologist Christopher J. Wheeler began experimenting with small LED's using flat-pack DIP chips to minimize thickness and extend battery life by pulsing the LED's with battery saving unlit gaps between pulses and depending upon our eye's retentivity to make the LED's appear to be constantly lit.
Chris kept his (who does this new, inexperienced in the ways of theatre kid) thoughts, research, and battery life tests to himself and was pleasantly surprised to learn a typical 9 volt battery could provide more than adequate light for 8 weeks of continuous, 24 / 7 operation.

- This was in the days when you could buy; Red, Green. or spend more money for a bi-polar (lit Red when powered one way / lit Green when powered the opposite way AND lit Amber by rapidly alternating its DC) LED's.
Great! Suitably long life; no switch required: No switch to buy, mount, package, protect, and remember to switch on and off.

How to assemble, mount, and house into a durable, IA resistant (Nothing's IA proof) package.
The answer became a small piece of bare, non copper clad, pre-punched perf' board.
All parts (there were / are very few) are held in position by their through-hole leads soldered together on the opposite side of the perf' board. The 9 volt battery was secured with three loops of thin, bare, wire (two loops around the side + one loop around the end to prevent slippage), With tweaking, and a fresh good quality battery, battery life proved to be 6 to 8 months of 24 / 7 continuous operation.

How to mount, keep the LED's visible to performers AND totally out of sight of any / all patrons seated on two levels wrapping 220 degrees around the thrust stage.

As is often the case: Simplicity proved to be the best answer.
Neat holes were drilled in precise locations through all layers of a floor.
The LED was inserted from below into the bottom of its locating hole; thus the LED was a BEACON to any / all performers yet totally obscured from the view of ALL patrons.

How to secure in position: Two neatly drilled holes through each perf' board with the boards secured to the undersides of their plywood floors by two pan head wood screws with flat washers to spread their pressure.
All boards had their mounting holes identically located making any board emitting the correct color a quickly installed replacement for any of its kin.

Some floors need only survive from rehearsals in February / March through to mid season when they're dropped fom rep'.
Other floors begin rehearsals one or two weeks post openings, typically June in the 70's and need to survive 'til season's end, typically October in the '70's.
Still other floors begin rehearsals in February / March and need to survive all the way through 'til season's end. Stratford continued to extend their seasons until the snows of winter made driving impossible for any profitable number of patrons.

There you have it; more than you NEVER wanted to know about battery powered LED spike marks on the stages of Stratford's Shakespearean Festival.
SM's dutifully continue to meticulously inspect their floors each time they're laid (The floors, not the SM's).
LED's judged too dim are quickly replaced the next time the floor is struck; the perf' boards, battery and all, are considered disposable items, their cost per board is miniscule in the scheme of things.
I did forewarn you this would define TLDR.

*EDIT #1*: Securely fastening the coffin locks to the sections of floors.
- 3 or 4 prong T-Nuts are inserted from the top side of the 3/4" plywood into slightly counter-bored and neatly drilled holes PRIOR to the addition of the 1/4" Masonite.
- Short 1/4-20 Hex head bolts (Machine Screws, if you prefer) are used to securely anchor the coffin locks with a dollop of Lock-Tite and without protruding through the T-Nuts, creating lumps in the Masonite. 

*Edit #2*: *@Ben Stiegler @tjrobb @Red_Carpet *There was likely a 3 pin Voltage Regulator involved to reduce the battery's initial voltage to a lower level then maintain that consistent level for a longer period of time as the battery's output voltage sagged as it aged.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard


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## Dan Fischer (Mar 3, 2021)

Have you thought about any of the apps that are available? You can buy cheap android devices for less than $50 now.


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## Ben Stiegler (Mar 3, 2021)

Dan Fischer said:


> Have you thought about any of the apps that are available? You can buy cheap android devices for less than $50 now.



the website is gone, and some cautionary notes re unresponsive developer in the play store notes. I loved the video - sad that it doesn't look like a solid choice today. Are there others people like?


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## dbaxter (Mar 3, 2021)

I thought we hashed this out in an earlier thread that prompted me to write the free WebCue program (baxeldata.com/freeware, the last entry). Haven't mentioned it before as the original poster said "no apps".


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## Ben Stiegler (Mar 4, 2021)

dbaxter said:


> I thought we hashed this out in an earlier thread that prompted me to write the free WebCue program (baxeldata.com/freeware, the last entry). Haven't mentioned it before as the original poster said "no apps".


sorry, Dave - my memory isn't what it used to be, or should be. Twas very humbling today as I took my annual Stanford U Brain Health Cognitive Assessment (online) ... trying to remember which of a full 52 deck of cards have been flashed on the screen in the past 4 minutes made me feel almost like I was shooting in the dark". Thanks for writing this!


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## dbaxter (Mar 4, 2021)

No worries. I thought they only did that to people in Las Vegas they thought were counting cards.


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## almorton (Mar 4, 2021)

My two penn'orth: I'd prefer a wired solution myself, since wireless has a nasty habit of working fine in rehearsal then not when the auditorium is full of pocket radio transmitters all looking for wifi.

I'd also wire it so that the base station and the out stations have lamps in series, so the sm knows that the out station lamp is on (if either fails, neither lights). Then the out station has a normally closed button in series too. so the sm turns on the cue light - sm's light and the remote come on. When the talent react to the cue, they push their button, which flashes their lamp _and _the sm's lamp, so you have visual feedback that they've seen it and reacted. Then the sm can turn the cue light off again, ready for next time.


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## Ben Stiegler (Mar 4, 2021)

dbaxter said:


> No worries. I thought they only did that to people in Las Vegas they thought were counting cards.


If you feel like souping up your app a wee bit:

- more connections - 2 gets used up quickly with a SM and say a conductor or FS op
- ability to load a cue list and hit Standby-Next and GO big fat buttons. Make it so the list is a CSV - that way you don't have to build editing functions into the app.

Having to type free text for each cue during a show doesn't seem practical for many environments I work in. I'm usually already octo-podding with mixing, advancing the next mix scene recall, SFX, monitoring wireless performance, and keeping a general eye out for trouble. 

If you did all that, it would be worthwhile as a paid/licensed app.

I do share the concern about NNN audience members all filling up the WiFi spectrum with endless hunts for a connection. I learned my lesson that one at a 50K person outdoor event where I foolishly thought I'd be ok mixing from multiple iPads 100' out into the crowd. The solution (and it can work in theater environments, too) was to rapidly borrow a long rugged Ethernet cable from the video truck and extend my AP from stageside to right under my feet at FOH. Luckily i had cable protector already run due to power needs for FOH and the adjacent press riser. But sprinkling a few APs around the venue (mesh could be helpful if you use one that reserves 1 radio for the backhaul) might eliminate the need to cable in the venue. YMMV.


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## dbaxter (Mar 7, 2021)

I put your thoughts on our 'wish list'. In the meantime, the cueing as you described for 4 users is a built-in feature of Cue Player One.


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## TimMc (Mar 7, 2021)

I'm a crusty old guy that thinks copper is king. In theater we've gotten fairly good about running wires and cables so they don't get damaged - we know the show relies on them and developed methods and materials to protect our show-dependent resources.

ANYTHING wireless (sorry to DMX folks) is subject to disruption by outside (not under your control) RF if the frequency and/or radiated power is right. Wifi and similar "free spectrum" devices are even more subject to this as the presence and use of devices designed for them cannot be controlled.

Something to think about - with wire and cable, show-critical copper has at least 1 redundant, fall-over-ready signal path. Relying on wireless means either 'more but different' wireless stuff, or running copper or fibre. 

If cueing is critical, copper should be involved unless the RF side is bullet proof, and then you'll need 2 RF systems (different frequencies on back up transmitters and receivers, with automatic, on-fail switchover). If it's not mission critical do what works 90% of the time and hope for good luck.


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## dbaxter (Mar 7, 2021)

No argument, TimMc. But tell that to the under 35 crowd (said the guy who actually forgets his cell phone sometimes when leaving the house)


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## JonCarter (Mar 8, 2021)

I like AlMorton's series lamps, and plain ol' wire! 

Again: remember the KISS principal. Seems there's a tendency by the "under 35" set to throw technology at a simple problem just because the technology exists.


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## jtweigandt (Mar 8, 2021)

Of course there was no reboot time on those giant rheostats and patch cables either. 
FWIW. I’m several seasons in and many performances using WiFi and DECT for comm in a 600 seat house. So for N<600 WiFi ain’t bad. Covering the parking lot was problematic on a wired headset too


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## almorton (Mar 8, 2021)

We use (RC4) wireless DMX and haven't had any problems with it, but I have had occasional stutters on things like aRFR which I put down to WiFi congestion, or maybe we need to increase the number of access points. There are plenty of use cases where wireless works flawlessly, just saying to be aware that sometimes wireless can be iffy.


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## jtweigandt (Mar 8, 2021)

almorton said:


> We use (RC4) wireless DMX and haven't had any problems with it, but I have had occasional stutters on things like aRFR which I put down to WiFi congestion, or maybe we need to increase the number of access points. There are plenty of use cases where wireless works flawlessly, just saying to be aware that sometimes wireless can be iffy.


And there is a difference in the use case of having a device that is not moving on wifi vs a tablet running the RFR and you're wandering about possibly hopping off one access point and on to another and constantly fluctuating signal strength. I could be wrong, but I think on wifi there is a constant rebalancing of data throughput based on signal strength.


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## almorton (Mar 8, 2021)

You could be right. We do use the RC4 kit on moving pieces, but they're going to stay in the same coverage area pretty much all the time, and it's covered by the RC4 transmitter, not the wifi repeaters..


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## gafftaper (Mar 9, 2021)

Sorry I'm late to this. 

Like @microstar suggested. I use a Chauvet Obey 4 and a couple of Cheap Chauvet RGB PAR 38's. I use DMX XLR to RJ45 adapters and run a Cat 5 cable between the controller and the fixtures. If you want to go wireless there are lots of wireless DMX options. 

The Obey 4 is particularly cool because it has color preset buttons so it's easy for the Stage Manager to jump around a color code. 
We use this code: 
Blue= Were running as usual not in standby
Yellow= We are in standby
Green= Go... then back to Blue once the cue has passed. 
Red= Something is wrong get on headset immediately.
Occasionally we have a need for a single person to be cued for something different and we need to differentiate. We just assign that person a special color like Purple or White... again just use the presets on the Obey 4.

Note I also have a PAR next to the Obey 4 in the booth so that the Stage Manager is always reminded what color is being displayed backstage.


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## macsound (Mar 10, 2021)

Ben Stiegler said:


> If you feel like souping up your app a wee bit:
> 
> - more connections - 2 gets used up quickly with a SM and say a conductor or FS op
> - ability to load a cue list and hit Standby-Next and GO big fat buttons. Make it so the list is a CSV - that way you don't have to build editing functions into the app.
> ...



Just watched the video about WebCue. Looks very useful. 
I just got an Echo Show for $19 on sale from Amazon. Thinking of testing this app out because the Echo show is always on, would be great as a permanent display. Problem is, I use mostly Macs, so I'd need to run a VM with windows, just to run the server, which isn't really a big deal.

Agreed though, if the messages are truly 1 to 1, having more than 2 destinations would be key. If it's 1 to all, it's less of a big deal.

Also agree, the ability to have any sort of cue list would be great. I'd probably use something like TextExpander or Keyboard Maestro so I could type something like ##1 for cue 1 and it auto-fills my text.


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## dbaxter (Mar 10, 2021)

OK, gang. There seems to be some interest in advancing WebCue. I've noted your comments here, but if you want to PM me with your 'wish-list', I'll see what I can do.


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## Jay Ashworth (Aug 7, 2021)

StradivariusBone said:


> So not cue lights as we would think of them in this context, but I've recently discovered Tally Arbiter which is some really clever software created to work with tally lights on video cameras. I've wondered if it could be also adapted for use as a cue light. It does allow OSC commands to fire sources, and it works with these little guys over WiFi.
> 
> We've been using this for camera work and it is pretty simple and reliable. The only issue is battery life is iffy. You'd want to hardwire the matrix displays


I'm working with TA for it's intended use, but I don't see any reason why David couldn't (or anyone else couldn't) whip up something to make a cue-switch-panel source to drive it.

I'm just using old cellphones with 3" screens. I expect decent life, at least out of newish batteries... and I don't care if the IMEIs are bad.


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