# RGB(A?) on the Cyc



## Corbettlight (Aug 27, 2009)

Hi, I was wondering about using RGB and maybe A to on my cyc for the next show I do. If I use these colors, can I mix them right to make whatever color I need even though they have different light sources?
From what I've read on this forum, it seems as though I can, but I never have tried it. I usually choose what gels would be good for the show I'm doing and use those. Sometimes I mix within them a bit, but never to great effect.

Thanks


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## TimMiller (Aug 27, 2009)

I have had bad and good experience with mixing colors on cycs. If you can get the fixtures hung and focused evenly you can usually create a very nice even wash on a cyc in which you can mix different colors to create new ones. Depending on the show, i will either use cyc silk red green blue, or i will go with some other variation of red green blue. Sometimes i will go more of a princess blue, a nice pinkish red, and sometimes a princess purple, or a form of green.


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## Les (Aug 27, 2009)

RGB (and A if you have 4-cell) is pretty standard in most places. As TimMiller said, placement is absolutely key to getting the color mixing you want. As long as things are set up correctly, you should not have much trouble getting most colors out of an RGB cyc. If you're able to get an amber gel up there, use it. Amber is really hard to get right using red and green. 
I normally stick to the Cyc Silks in my plots.


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## Corbettlight (Aug 27, 2009)

Ok, that sounds good. 
How would I need to set them up? I only have floor cycs. They are 4 cell, and I have 3 of them.


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## Les (Aug 27, 2009)

What size is the cyc and what instrument are you using (brand, model)?

Ideally you want the space between the instruments to be about equal to their distance from the cyc, but 3 instruments is not a lot if this is a large cyc, so you might have to get creative. I am used to cyc lights being about 6'-8' from the cyc, but your mileage may vary.


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## Corbettlight (Aug 27, 2009)

I'm not sure about the size or brand/model. I could find it, but I wouldn't have access to the lights for a couple weeks at the least. I would approximate the width of each cell to be 9". They are rectangular, and the height would be maybe 6" or so. I will try to find a picture of what I have. My cyc is about 25 feet wide, give or take 5 feet.

Our cyc lights look very similar to this, although they might be slightly bigger and each cell is more elongated:


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## mstaylor (Aug 28, 2009)

Get the coverage as full and even as possible with the instruments you have. If you have cyc left pver maybe you can block it down with blacks to keep your effect.


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## Grog12 (Aug 28, 2009)

Each manufacturer puts out a Product Data Sheet for each of their instruments. This can help you determine where to place your cyc lights in relation to the cyc.

http://mail.altmanltg.com/publicsynergy/docs/BDBinDoc.asp?Id={4D516FA3-6C89-4A1E-964D-3FC700DDD423}


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## Corbettlight (Aug 28, 2009)

So, if I place the cyc lights according to their product data sheet and gel them with RGBA I will be able to mix them to my advantage?


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## shiben (Aug 28, 2009)

Thats the idea. However, how good (even, bright, etc) the color is will depend on what gels you put in (cyc silk is probably your best bet).


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## Corbettlight (Aug 28, 2009)

Alright, cool. Does cyc silk come in as many colors as regular gel?


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## Grog12 (Aug 28, 2009)

Corbettlight said:


> So, if I place the cyc lights according to their product data sheet and gel them with RGBA I will be able to mix them to my advantage?



That's the idea. But you may be limited to your inventory and have to adjust accordingly to get the cyc covered.

Personally I don't like throwing amber in as my 4th option when I'm limited to a 4-cell situation, I'd much prefer to pick a color I know I'm going to need for the show as opposed to trying to mix with amber. 

I've had a different expierence than Les, as I'm almost always able to mix the amber I want from red and green.

As to your question about cyc silk I suggest you spend some time on the Rosco, Apollo, Gam and Lee websites to see what suits your fancy.


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## shiben (Aug 28, 2009)

I have seen cyc silk in Red, Green, Blue, and Amber, with diffusions in several other colors. Like Grog said, look around the websites and find ones that you like, in that range.


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## derekleffew (Aug 28, 2009)

Corbettlight, get yourself down to your favorite local lighting vendor, and pick yourself up some swatchbooks from Apollo, GAM, Lee, and Rosco. You can also request these from the manufacturers' sites, but results may vary, it's a hardship on the manufacturer, and will always take longer.


Corbettlight said:


> Alright, cool. Does cyc silk come in as many colors as regular gel?


No. Cyc silk and cyc diffusion are simply one manufacturer's way of saving the end user time and money. They only come in the primaries. If one wants to substitute another color, the color can be inserted in the same frame with R104 (for silk) or R100 (for diffusion). (Just discovered that Apollo makes RBG Diffusions, but not silks. Why is that, Kelite?)

The colors suggested are from the Roscolux line:
R120 Red Diffusion
R121 Blu Diffusion
R122 Grn Diffusion
(Why they discontinued R123 Amb Diffusion [or why Apollo doesn't have one] is a mystery).
OR
R124 Red Cyc Silk
R125 Blu Cyc Silk
R126 Grn Cyc Silk
R127 Amb Cyc Silk

The primary benefit to using silk over diffusion is that the silk will transmit more light, in that in only spreads the light in one direction, opposite the lines. This is particularly useful in a four color system with a short throw, as the individual colors are so far apart from one another.

Given an appropriate throw distance, 6' to 8', silk or frost may not even be necessary. Since you only have three fixtures, Corbettlight, you probably need to find the ideal compromise between getting the fixtures far enough away to cover what you need them to and still be bright enough to be useful. I believe the non-silk equivalents to R124-R127 are:
R27 Medium Red
R80 Primary Blue
R91 Primary Green
R22 Deep Amber.

If intensity is an issue, which I suspect it will be, unless you can use 1500-2000W lamps, you can use slightly less saturated colors, (R26 for R27; R68 for R80; R90 for R91; R21 for R22) but won't be able to mix as wide a range of colors.

One further note: IF the cyc is to represent a daytime sky (as opposed to just a colorful backing), I prefer a daylight blue, such as R65 or Lee201, as the fourth color instead of amber. If the fabric of the cyc is a light blue, a No Color circuit might even be beneficial.


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## Corbettlight (Aug 28, 2009)

Cool, thanks a lot.
I can only use 500W lamps due to fixture and dimmer constraints. Do you think it would be better to use regular gel instead of silk then? If I use regular gel would the colors mix properly?


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## Darthrob13 (Aug 28, 2009)

Not to add to the complexity of the problem, but what type of console do you use?

If you are using one of the latest generation consoles (Ion, Palette et al) you can create an RGB(A) fixture that is your cyc. It will behave like a single unit and the console will handle the color mixing for you. This means that you can call up the whole cyc as "Channel 100".


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## Corbettlight (Aug 28, 2009)

Right now, I'm on a Leprecon 624, but today, I ordered an Element. 

If I set up the cyc with a profile on the element would I be able to use the color picker feature to set the levels on the cyc? What gels would I want?


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## Les (Aug 28, 2009)

Corbettlight said:


> Cool, thanks a lot.
> I can only use 500W lamps due to fixture and dimmer constraints. Do you think it would be better to use regular gel instead of silk then? If I use regular gel would the colors mix properly?




It's hard for us to answer that question, because we don't know how far from the cyc these units will actually end up being. Distance from the cyc plays a big role in color mixing. Too close and you end up with a phenomenon called scalloping. This might also prove to be the case if you just use regular gel instead of cyc silk. The regular gel will transmit more light, but they will not blend as readily. You really just have to experiment. See if you can throw some other (non silk) colors you have laying around in there to run a test. If they don't blend very well, try shooting for the silk. Otherwise, we can only speculate on the outcome since there are so many missing variables.

Missing variables:
Photometric data on the fixtures (beam angles, foot candles, etc)
Distance between fixtures and cyc
Distance between fixtures

My hypothesis is that 3 fixtures is not very many, and especially with each lamped at only 500w. Color mixing might be decent, but you may have to settle for "good enough for government work".


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## derekleffew (Aug 28, 2009)

Darthrob13 said:


> ... If you are using one of the latest generation consoles (Ion, Palette et al) you can create an RGB(A) fixture that is your cyc. It will behave like a single unit and the console will handle the color mixing for you. This means that you can call up the whole cyc as "Channel 100".


*I vehemently oppose this concept*, especially for a student. 

I often read on other forums (even here: http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/lighting/12913-skycyc-rgb.html) where someone is asking how to do this, and it's obvious that the poster doesn't know anything about color mixing in the first place. Lighting Designers have been additively color mixing for over 100 years, and is a skill that should be encouraged through experimentation. The last thing we need is a generation of designers who don't know that red and green make amber. Plus, although I've never done it, I suspect the results will be less than satisfactory, as the (non-manufacturer specific) console has no idea if you're using R27/R80/R91, R26/R68/R90, or some other combination. 

When the VL5 first came out, I had quite the argument with an Artisan operator on an IA show, who didn't know how to subtractively mix. Had another programmer been available, he would have been replaced.


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## Corbettlight (Aug 29, 2009)

I just checked out my lights, and after several minutes of searching, I found a sticker in an obscure place. It says "HUI" on the top of the sticker, and it has some specs. It looks like it can take up to 1000W lamps, but unfortunately our dimmers can't handle that much. Even with three separate dimmers addressed the same.

It looks like the model number is "HUILAB004". I tried google searching it, but nothing came up. I also tried, "HUI Lighting", and I may have come up with some Chinese company. Figures. We already had these before I started doing the lights here, so I never bothered to look at what they are. They seem to work pretty well though, especially if they are a Chinese off-brand.

I didn't see any photometric data in the fixtures themselves, and as I said, I couldn't find a website for them. Does anyone have any ideas?


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## derekleffew (Aug 29, 2009)

Hui |Hui Groundrow by Selecon Strand.


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## Corbettlight (Aug 29, 2009)

Excellent! I didn't think they were China quality. I wonder why I couldn't fin Selecon Stand anywhere on it... 
So, with the knowledge of what I have, do you have any more suggestions on gel vs. silk, distance from Cyc, etc.?


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## shiben (Aug 29, 2009)

Question: What kind of dimmers are you using that you cant put a 1000 watt lamp on a single one? In my very limited experience, I have never seen installed dimmers that are rated less than 1200W each... I could be very wrong however. Also, re the not knowing how to mix, I agree fully. Knowing how colors mix is pretty much critical in my opinion. In the textbook that we use for our intro to design class, it is stated over and over again that one of the best things that a young LD can do is get a few fixtures, and play with gels and color mixing.


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## Corbettlight (Aug 29, 2009)

It's not the single 1000W that's the problem, it's the fact that I need 3 lamps on each dimmer because I don't have enough dimmers to run them all separately. Also, the total capacity of each one of my dimmer packs is 2.4 KW. Hence my using one 4 channel 2.4 KW pack and one 8 channel pack with much more capacity. (we have NSI Leviton dimmer packs, not sure of the model numbers.


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## Darthrob13 (Aug 30, 2009)

Corbettlight said:


> I wonder why I couldn't fin Selecon Stand anywhere on it...



Because until April they were just Selecon....

...and now it's Strand-Selecon.


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## Corbettlight (Aug 31, 2009)

So, I'm about to purchase the gel for this show, and I was wondering, based on the fact that we now know that the fixtures are Strand Selecon Hui Groundrows and , I have three, and they are about 6' from the cyc, should I use cyc silk or regular gel for the RGB mixing?


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## Les (Aug 31, 2009)

Depends. Are you more willing to sacrifice a little spread or a little intensity? How about buying some regular gel and a few sheets of frost?


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## Corbettlight (Aug 31, 2009)

I don't know about the gel + frost. Unfortunately, I'm on a VERY tight budget.
Basically, I want the greatest intensity while still being able to mix the RGB effectively.


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## Les (Aug 31, 2009)

It's a coin toss really. I would probably just go for the plain gel and hope for the best.


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## Corbettlight (Aug 31, 2009)

Alright - I'll do what I can.

Thanks


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## Corbettlight (Aug 31, 2009)

So - I just happened to be looking through my handy dandy Rosco swatchbook, and it looks like the cyc silks transmit more light than the three primaries - 27, 80, and 91. Does that mean cyc silk would be perfect for me?


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## Les (Aug 31, 2009)

This one I'm not too sure about. It would only seem logical to me that clear gel would have a higher transmission rate than silk or diffusion. Hopefully someone else can weigh in on this!


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## Corbettlight (Aug 31, 2009)

That's what I would think too!

It was a difference of about 5% though. And when we're talking about transmission rates in the high single digits to low teens, that's a lot.

I also had a matte silk sheet that I held up to the light along with a sheet of medium red. This looked like it let through a lot less light than the sample of red cyc silk.


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## Kelite (Sep 2, 2009)

Corbettlight said:


> That's what I would think too!
> 
> It was a difference of about 5% though. And when we're talking about transmission rates in the high single digits to low teens, that's a lot.
> 
> I also had a matte silk sheet that I held up to the light along with a sheet of medium red. This looked like it let through a lot less light than the sample of red cyc silk.




Hi gang, sorry to barge in, late to the party and all... 

Yes, the 5% difference is substantial when taking into account the low light transmission these primaries allow, exacerbated by diffusion/silk textures. It's similar to chasing one's tail really, when considering that lower light transmission requires more wattage to punch through, which shortens the life of the gel... 

As previously discussed, silks affect the dispersion of light from the cyc light in a different manner than diffusion would affect the light. I will agree there is merit to offering RGB Silks and will pass that on up the chain o' command, as we track gel transmission requests. Your input is very valuable to us when we contemplate adding to the Apollo swatchbook.

And thank you Derek, I certainly appreciate your diligence and informative postings (as usual)!


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## Corbettlight (Sep 2, 2009)

I think you misunderstood my last post - the _silk_ had a higher transmission rate than the regular gel. (These were all Rosco, BTW).


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## Kelite (Sep 3, 2009)

Corbettlight said:


> I think you misunderstood my last post - the _silk_ had a higher transmission rate than the regular gel. (These were all Rosco, BTW).



Sorry, let me clarify- I guess it depends upon which two transmissions are being compared. Which non-silk transmissions are being compared to R124, R125, and R126?


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## Corbettlight (Sep 3, 2009)

The Rosco primaries - R27, R80, R91.


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## Kelite (Sep 3, 2009)

Corbettlight said:


> The Rosco primaries - R27, R80, R91.




Grab your nearest Rosco swatchbook and compare the following gel swatches:

R124 12%____and___ R26 12%
R125 8%_____and___ R80 9%
R126 13%____and___ R90 13%

While it would appear at first blush that silks offer better light throughput, the actual colors mentioned above are more direct in their color match, thus offering similar output. Don't take my word for it though, grab your swatchbook and have a look-


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## lightingguy1 (Jul 26, 2010)

*Good R-G-B colors for lighting Cycs*

Does anybody have any good suggestions on what Rosco gels i should Use to Light an RGB CYC with?


Thanks!


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## Tex (Jul 27, 2010)

*Re: Good R-G-B colors for lighting Cycs*

Rosco Cyc Silk
Red - 124
Blue - 125
Green - 126


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## lightingguy1 (Jul 27, 2010)

*Re: Good R-G-B colors for lighting Cycs*

Are those Roscolux gels?


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