# Looooong Gig



## photoatdv (Feb 24, 2010)

So I have a gig coming up that will require myself and my ATD to be awake/alert/working/productive for 30+ hours on site. I know this isn't terribly uncommon in parts of the pro world.

How do you guys stay on your toes for that long?

I did a previous similar gig and know I didn't do my best near the end of it... and it wasn't really a huge deal... but this time I am TD and it's pretty crucial that I'm at the top of my game for the whole event.

Oh and lets stick to legal options .


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## soundman (Feb 24, 2010)

Split shifts. There is no safe way to work for 30 hours with out sleep.


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## Les (Feb 24, 2010)

soundman said:


> Split shifts. There is no safe way to work for 30 hours with out sleep.



If you're working in a place where OSHA has any kind of jurisdiction, I don't think there is a 'legal' way either.


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## photoatdv (Feb 24, 2010)

OSHA does not have jurisdiction here for multiple reasons... nor am I going to have someone cover for me anyway. If I sleep at all (which is doubtful it'll be onsite in case I'm needed).

By "legal" I meant don't suggest getting high...

Whether or not it's "legal", it is done commonly... I've known guys to stay up for 40-50 hours straight working ... I just don't know how.


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## soundman (Feb 24, 2010)

Any event I have worked that spans more than 14 to 16 hours in a row rotates crew. If not complete replacements the lead will hit the hay for a few hours and the second will run the ship. It may not be quality sleep but 3 or 4 hours is better than nothing.

Being able to stand up with your eyes open could be called awake but that doesn't mean your useful. I know personally I can give 14 solid hours of supervision or programing before I need more than a quick meal break. Much after that I hit a wall, mistakes start becoming more frequent and I find myself looking into a case trying to remember what I was going to grab. Not good.


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## Les (Feb 24, 2010)

soundman said:


> I find myself looking into a case trying to remember what I was going to grab.



Funny, I find myself looking into a case trying to find a place to take a nap


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## soundman (Feb 24, 2010)

Les said:


> Funny, I find myself looking into a case trying to find a place to take a nap



Span set bin FTW

OR 

set up the hammock. Two cable trunks and a piece of truss will do in a pinch...


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## avkid (Feb 24, 2010)

Les said:


> Funny, I find myself looking into a case trying to find a place to take a nap


 Yay for piano cases!


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## kiwitechgirl (Feb 24, 2010)

Roster on a couple more crew than actually needed so that you can let a couple of people catch a few hours sleep at any one time. No other way to do it safely.


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## photoatdv (Feb 24, 2010)

Maybe I should look into starting load-in a few hours earlier so I can take a break while my second does his part of the setup then he can take a break while I do mine. I can usually go 18 hours before I'm not as on the game, and by about 20 I start making mistakes (these are considering something that keeps me busy and the adrenaline flowing). Unfortunately 18 hours will be right smack in the middle of the event.

I do plan on rotating the hands-- probably have one group for in/out and one for show. I guess I need to look into another ATD/assistant... with everything going on on this event there need to be two leads, plus the hands there the whole time.


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## photoatdv (Feb 24, 2010)

I will have more hands and/or do split shifts... the issue is just the ATD and I. I'm trying to figure out how much adrenaline and caffeine will do... of course it doesn't help that I hate energy drinks.


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## erosing (Feb 25, 2010)

When I do long events I have learned to do a few things. 

1. Adjust my sleep schedule so that by the time I would normally be getting tired the sun is already up.
2. Take a shower before you go to bed the day before, have everything packed and ready to go (in your car already if you feel comfortable with that), including laying out clothes shoes. This allows you to wake up go to the bathroom and get out the door right away.
3. Eat, eat, eat. This is very important, if you keep eating every few hours you'll have more energy to keep going. Don't eat crap, eat something with nutritional value. I like Protein bars for breakfast and snacks. Take a real lunch break, get some more good food in you. Take 5 minutes to eat a bar every few hours. Take a real dinner break, again eat good food. 
4. Drink lots of water, you don't want to crash because you were drinking soda/energy drinks. You will be going to the bathroom a lot, but that's okay.
5. Take any time not alloted for food where you don't have something to do and take a 20 minute nap if you can, otherwise just sit down.
6. If you don't need to stand, then don't! Standing uses more energy than sitting or laying down.
7. If you have time, and possibility of, depending on the venue, take a shower.
8. If you are in a space with temperature control, turn the heat up a little bit. You are looking for that temperature range that is too annoying to sleep in buy not so hot that your sweating profusely due to the heat.
9. If you need a break take one. Simple as that, better off sleeping for an hour or two while your not directly needed (they will wake you if it's that important), than dragging your body around all day and losing focus.
10. Talk to your employer about getting more venue time to spread out the hours an extra day next time (in my expierience this has actually worked).


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## Lotos (Feb 25, 2010)

Tea, and Coca Cola...

Also, sugar... Lots of sugar... It's a vicious cycle though, you need to keep feeding the caffeene and sugar into your system, or you'll crash.

I get 'punchy' after about 20 hours... By Punchy, I mean yelly, snappy, and giggly, all in jest mind you... My crew are used to it, we play off each other, funny voices come out, and instructions get repeated slower and louder, until everyone understands.

Also, regardless of how long you plan on working... Be sure to get at least SOME meal breaks in there... Sugar and Caffeene will keep you going, but you'll have the worst case of gut rot in the world, unless you put something REAL in your stomach.

I've never done 30 in a row, and really, I advise against even doing 20... Or really, more than about 10 or 12... There is just no way to stay at 100% over that amount of time.


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## GreyWyvern (Feb 25, 2010)

Caffeine and sugar are the reason you crash, that's why it is a vicious cycle. Your best bet is to avoid caffeine and sugar as much as possible. However, simply put, there are different types of sugar and the good kind is needed to maintain good energy. The sugar found in soft drinks and energy drinks is the bad kind. It gives you a boost and you crash 20 minutes later and need more, much like caffeine. The kind you want is sugar that is naturally in things and unrefined. It will give your body what it really needs and will not just give you a quick boost.

Other than that, everything Arez said is dead on. I would say those tips should be in a collaborative article where they are easy to find.


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## Dionysus (Feb 27, 2010)

I've never done 30 either, but for The Celtic Roots Festival I do every year, I am going for more than a week with the last 4 days all being at least 16 hours long, plus time at the bar... This year we've added more days as well so it will be more.
I'd suggest trying to fit in 20-minute cat-naps once and a while when you can. As long as you have a 2nd in command who can wake you if needed, it should be fine. If you are going to nap I would limit them to 20-min periods unless you are expecting to go for a hour. I find anything more than 20-min but less than a hour makes you feel more tired when you wake up.

Avoid caffeine (perhaps indulge near the home stretch) EXPECIALLY the caffeine in energy drinks (there is a lot of potent caffeine in them and you'll crash hard)... Try drinking green tea (smoother caffeine high I find), or herbal teas (have lots of good stuff in them... Perhaps ones with things like Ginseng, etc)...
Use honey or something as a sweetener instead of white sugar (takes longer for your body to process the sugar, so you are less likely to crash).

Nutrition is important! You'll need carbs for fuel. Avoid heavily fatty foods, or foods that take a lot of energy to digest (like red meat, celery and cucumber).

GET LOTS OF SLEEP THE NIGHT BEFORE (even though I know it's hard because your head just wants to tick away I find before a big gig)...

Other than that, have fun.


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## bishopthomas (Mar 13, 2010)

Hey, photoatdv, has this gig happened yet? If so, how'd you make out? I have a dance marathon coming up in a couple of weeks that will require running lights all day, all night, into the next morning. I did it last year and it was tough, but it's not the worst stretch of gig I've ever done. Twice in my life I have worked three full days without sleep. I'm talking: get up in the morning for Gig 1, finish late that night, drive to Gig 2 in time for load in, work all day, then drive to Gig 3 in time for breakfast/shower/load in. Then work all day there and drive 3 hours back home. The last drive I pulled over on the side of the road and slept for a few minutes before going home and passing out for a couple of days.

I do not recommend this at all, especially if you are driving! One of those second nights was driving from Boston to New York (around 4 hours) and I could have easily killed someone. Red Bull and other energy drinks have no effect on me, so thankfully my passenger was there to help me out.

If you have to be awake, alert, and active the entire time then you'll probably do better than if you have down time. Stay away from climbing, rigging, and working with power tools if you do not feel alert enough to do it safely. If you can find any time to sleep then take the opportunity. The gig I have coming up is extremely simple. We're loading in (and I'm programming) the day before, so it's just a show up and run a couple of scenes for 36 hours kind of gig. The load out will go slowly (that's okay) and the worst will be the drive home at the end of it all.

Good luck!


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## SHARYNF (Mar 13, 2010)

Meditation works well also, usually a 20 minute mediation break and you can be refreshed for a quite a while

Sharyn


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## photoatdv (Mar 14, 2010)

Nope. Still a bit out.

When I did a bit of a marathon before I had rehearsal for show A, school, meeting for show B, show C, strike from show C, prep for show B, sleep 3 hours, loadin show B, run show B, catch an hour's nap, finish show B, load out show B.... all of this taking place between 6am day 1 and 10:30am day 3...


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## Footer (Mar 14, 2010)

SHARYNF said:


> Meditation works well also, usually a 20 minute mediation break and you can be refreshed for a quite a while
> 
> Sharyn



Hippy! 

I have always wanted to try meditation. The Wii Fit wants me to do it. I just have to get over me doing it. Any advice?


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## gcpsoundlight (Mar 14, 2010)

Just take regular brakes, don't have energy drinks (hey, i have never had one and no problems staying awake), avoid soft drinks, and eat healthy nutritios food. Take breaks reguarly, and if you feel you are compromised in a way that could affect you or your work detrimentaly, take another brake IMMEDIATELY.

Me 2 cents


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## Ric (Mar 15, 2010)

Hi, regardless of what you feel or think, working excessive hours is dangerous.
After a certain length of time AWAKE, regardless of your work load, your body produces toxins that are similar to the effects of being drunk. This will vary from individual to individual but starts to become noticeable after 12 hours awake (yes as little as that!) 

There is no solution, no drug or break will actually reduce the toxins in your body. There is nothing that will fix this apart from real actual sleep!
Sleep deficit is what occurs from doing this for multiple days in a row; effectively your time span before your body becomes 'drunk' reduces the more in sleep debt you become. Each waking period you become affected sooner.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_deprivation

"According to a 2000 study published in the British Medical Journal, researchers in Australia and New Zealand reported that sleep deprivation can have some of the same hazardous effects as being drunk.[27] People who drove after being awake for 17–19 hours performed worse than those with a blood alcohol level of .05 percent, which is the legal limit for drunk driving in most western European countries and Australia. Another study suggested that performance begins to degrade after 16 hours awake, and 21 hours awake was equivalent to a blood alcohol content of .08 percent, which is the blood alcohol limit for drunk driving in Canada, the U.S., and the U.K.[28] "



Much like information on rigging on this site, NO-ONE should be recommending ways in which to make extended working hours happen (30 hours straight!? ). This is deadly and I am stunned that it is even being considered.

Shame guys, shame !

Cheers,
Ric


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## shiben (Mar 15, 2010)

you need to take some sort of nap in there. I have done 48 hours awake, doing school, then work, then writing essays, then 12 hours of work. By the end, when we went to get some food after the 2nd work shift, I felt like I had polished off a bottle of wine or something, was being loopy, speaking louder, and failing at simple tasks like buckling my belt and tying my shoes. If I had been trying to do anything that could have been dangerous, it would have been a risk to myself and others. If, during your gig, there is someone giving a speech or some other low-intensity bit, catch some zzs there. I will 2nd meditation, 20 minutes of that can substitute for nearly 2 hours of sleep in my experience, but that has more to do with how good you are at it and how your body will react. The fact remains, however, that by the end you will be effectively intoxicated, and there is no way to get around that. 

Wait a second... your a student. Do you sleep ever anyhow?


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## SHARYNF (Mar 15, 2010)

I do think it is somewhat interesting about the comments from the medical community re sleep deprivation, when this sort of situation is exactly what they put interns thru post medical school. Of course "then you are only dealing with folks lives"

Sharyn


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## bishopthomas (Mar 15, 2010)

Ric, I envy your job where you are obviously so well rested and never have to put in the long hours commonly associated with this industry. I wonder what your position is and please tell me how I can attain it.


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## Ric (Mar 15, 2010)

bishopthomas said:


> Ric, I envy your job where you are obviously so well rested and never have to put in the long hours commonly associated with this industry. I wonder what your position is and please tell me how I can attain it.


I'll take that tongue in cheek 

I am a Tech at a Council owned Theatre. I have had (and still do) my fair share of long days as well, however I am doing my best to ensure the issues of safety are highlighted around dangerous working practices. This is one that isn't easy to change, and will take some time, but to keep people safe MUST change.

In my position I am an OHS rep and am doing my best to make my management aware of long hours and why it is bad practice. Injuries and issues directly relating to working extended hours have been noted and discussed. Fortunately in my State there is a lot of legislation on my side. I've not succeeded in a workplace policy about this in writing ...yet, but my voice is being heard & things are changing here.

Once you start talking safety & injury management associated with long working hours, slowly but surely the message gets through.

I hate that there are still lots & lots of people that work these hours in our industry, often. It's criminal that *we* feel we have no option but to say yes to things like this.

Long working hours are no less dangerous than working at heights unprotected, or driving drunk. It's irresponsible of anyone to offer ways to ensure you do it, and my point was comparing it to the policy of this Forum of not discussing ways to rig; we should not encourage unsafe work practices at all. I'm not sorry if you take exception to my point of view, I respect yours and your right to speak it, and I welcome healthy discussion always. 

Cheers,
Ric


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## SHARYNF (Mar 15, 2010)

Here is a paper from Harvard on effective ways to stay awake

New study: Small, frequent doses of caffeine best strategy for staying awake

Sharyn


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## shiben (Mar 15, 2010)

> I hate that there are still lots & lots of people that work these hours in our industry, often. It's criminal that *we* feel we have no option but to say yes to things like this.



Sometimes we have little choice. If there are 2 different shows back to back, there is no real way to avoid working long hours. The formats that theaters and events get into is just plain labor intensive sometimes. Im not real sure what we can even do about that.


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## gafftaper (Mar 15, 2010)

The simple answer is you need to rest. If there is no time for you to get rest then your employer has a staffing problem that your employer needs to solve. This means hiring more qualified staff for the event. That's not your problem. Stand up for yourself. Draw the line and say I won't work more than 16 hours. If the event can't be done that's not your problem. Tell whomever is demanding this event happen that you will only do it if they are standing right next to you the entire 30 hours. Or will they be home snug in their bed? If they aren't willing to work with you the whole time they can cough up a few bucks and hire additional staff. How do you pull it off? You work shifts with your ATD. Hire two extra people You get one your ATD gets one. Two teams working 12 on 12 off Problem solved. 

This reminds me so much of the dangerous ladder discussion from a while back. We work endless hours without sleep because "the show must go on". That idea is stupid and will get you killed eventually. The show doesn't have to go on at the expense of your safety. If the show has to go on around the clock then the boss needs to hire additional staff or scale back the demands on tech. The "big boys" don't work like this. We have this image working in educational and community theater that "the pros" (whomever they are) are 10x tougher than us and can work 6 days without a break. Well they don't. Yes once in a while we all get in a pinch but in general they hire extra people and the job gets done before breakfast. Even the most demanding tour is going to provide a few hours of rack time backstage during the event. 

A friend was telling me about working in his large arena. A couple years ago they had a motor cross preliminary event Thursday followed by a Concert Friday, and then the motor cross finals on Saturday. Thousands of pounds of dirt hauled into the arena, then removed and replaced with chairs and a stage, then bring the dirt back in. It's insane. How do you do it? You hire another 50 guys, they work in shifts, and everyone goes home on time with all their fingers. THAT is how the pros do it.

Like you I've worked my share of 12-16 hour days... but somewhere along the way I say that's it we are going to sleep and I don't care what the show looks like. If the director isn't happy the director can come work another 16 hours. I need to sleep. Oh and if you are still in high school I better not catch you doing even those kind of hours (yes I am a grumpy old teacher). It's great that you are dedicated to the drama program, but you are a student first. Get your homework done, get to class on time and awake. You have plenty of years ahead of you to work long hours. You need to keep your head on straight and learn now so you are ready for your big break some day. During my first year teaching one of my students spent so much time in the theater she almost didn't graduate. Since then I've kept an eye on student time. I like your help but I want you to graduate first. The show IS NOT that important.


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## bishopthomas (Mar 15, 2010)

Ric said:


> I'll take that tongue in cheek
> 
> I am a Tech at a Council owned Theatre. I have had (and still do) my fair share of long days as well, however I am doing my best to ensure the issues of safety are highlighted around dangerous working practices. This is one that isn't easy to change, and will take some time, but to keep people safe MUST change.
> 
> ...



It was half tongue in cheek, half exposing a hypocrite. You are so adamantly against it but freely admit to working "long hours" yourself. Tell me that you turn down jobs with long hours or go home after an 8-10 hour work day and I will hold your words with merit. If you feel so strongly about not working when you're tired then don't do it. See how far that gets you in this industry...


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## bishopthomas (Mar 15, 2010)

gafftaper said:


> The simple answer is you need to rest. If there is no time for you to get rest then your employer has a staffing problem that your employer needs to solve.



We aren't all so lucky to work as a staff member of one location. Today I may be hired by a group to bring in a light rig, the next as a monitor engineer with a local sound company, all after getting home from a long tour (I have literally gone from the airport to a gig at least twice). This is all part of the business, staying diverse, feast or famine... I could have a month (or two) off afterward so for me to turn down a gig because I didn't get 8 hours of sleep the previous night would be ridiculous.


gafftaper said:


> The "big boys" don't work like this. We have this image working in educational and community theater that "the pros" (whomever they are) are 10x tougher than us and can work 6 days without a break. Well they don't. Yes once in a while we all get in a pinch but in general they hire extra people and the job gets done before breakfast. Even the most demanding tour is going to provide a few hours of rack time backstage during the event.



You honestly think the guys at Clair, Showco, Bandit, 8th Day, etc. don't work extremely long hours, sometimes (often maybe) not going to sleep at night? I dare you to call them with your ideas of this 9-5 work day you think should be the norm.

Please don't think I'm advocating working in high steel or with power tools after days of being awake. That's not what I'm saying. But if I need to operate a console for 36 hours (and get paid to do it) then I really don't see how that's any of your concern.


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## Ric (Mar 15, 2010)

bishopthomas said:


> It was half tongue in cheek, half exposing a hypocrite. You are so adamantly against it but freely admit to working "long hours" yourself. Tell me that you turn down jobs with long hours or go home after an 8-10 hour work day and I will hold your words with merit. If you feel so strongly about not working when you're tired then don't do it. See how far that gets you in this industry...



OK, I hear you. To sum up there were 2 points I was trying to make.
1/ Is that long working hours are bad & potentially dangerous, I hope there's no disagreement there.
2/ That this forum should promote good & safe working practices, and that to encourage bad ones is irresponsible.

Yes, I am fortunate to currently work for a single employer, in a steady role, in the same venue. I understand that others have widely varying working roles & conditions, and that mine is comparatively a breeze.
What I am hoping to do is discourage the industry prevalent attitude that long hours are *right*. I understand the necessities at times to work long hours, however with forethought, staffing & planning, for a lot of jobs & places it IS possible to not have those long hours. For those who freelance then yes it sucks, but you can put strategies in place to reduce your hours, if your health & safety is important enough to you.

I have been in the industry a long time, I worked long hours for many years, and as I grew older my values changed; family became more important than my job. My strategy was to find a job, like I have done, that took me out of the dangerous working practices of the casually employed, and value my health, my life, & the lives of people around me over the big buck.

I encounter tremendous resistance when I discuss this, mostly I believe because people are reluctant to stand up, for fear of losing their income. That's a very valid thing! I am fortunate to be employed such that I can advocate for changes in my workplace, and hopefully those changes will help the industry along the way.

I am occasionally still faced with 14 hour days for my crew and I (is that all I hear some of you say?); when they are presented to me, I bring out my discussions on health & safety for long working hours and try to offer options to reduce the hours for all the staff involved. Often this involves extra staff, or breaking the work day into 2 days. Other times the time constraints are imposed from external organisations, and I suggest imposing financial penalties (increased overtime rates for example). Sometimes the message gets through, othertimes not. It's not a quick solution, but an attitude, that I am trying to change. Slowly but surely people will begin to see that it was never smart to work that way.

Cheers,
Ric


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## shiben (Mar 15, 2010)

bishopthomas said:


> We aren't all so lucky to work as a staff member of one location. Today I may be hired by a group to bring in a light rig, the next as a monitor engineer with a local sound company, all after getting home from a long tour (I have literally gone from the airport to a gig at least twice). This is all part of the business, staying diverse, feast or famine... I could have a month (or two) off afterward so for me to turn down a gig because I didn't get 8 hours of sleep the previous night would be ridiculous.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Actually, if I understand our local's rules right (im not IA yet, I lack a car to get to gigs), there is a huge overtime cost penalty for not giving at least 8 hours for rest in between work periods, or not giving 8 hours of rest per 24 hours. I figure that there is a reason that when large arena tours come in, they dont arrive the night before and work until its set up, but rather hire dozens of local hands to help with the work and start in the morning.

To the OP, another thing to think about is the potential penalty of working for 30 hours on your body. I can pull 48 hours for school and whatnot, but I will be asleep for a good 12-14 for the next few nights. Remember that you can pull an all day-all night-all morning shift, and you might even be able to stay awake for it. However, school on monday is going to suck, especially if your not a theatre major and can get away with skipping your 8Am because the prof saw the show and liked it...


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## bishopthomas (Mar 15, 2010)

Ric said:


> I have been in the industry a long time, I worked long hours for many years, and as I grew older my values changed; family became more important than my job. My strategy was to find a job, like I have done, that took me out of the dangerous working practices of the casually employed, and value my health, my life, & the lives of people around me over the big buck.



I have realized over the past couple of years that I cannot keep up this lifestyle forever. Please give me a heads up on any available 8 hour tech jobs that you may know of... I would love to get out of the freelance world, stop touring, sell my lighting rig and box truck, stop paying self employment taxes, etc.


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## bishopthomas (Mar 15, 2010)

shiben said:


> Actually, if I understand our local's rules right (im not IA yet, I lack a car to get to gigs), there is a huge overtime cost penalty for not giving at least 8 hours for rest in between work periods, or not giving 8 hours of rest per 24 hours.



In a world where everything operates like IATSE then we'd all make decent livings, have excellent working conditions, and be bright eyed and bushy tailed in the morning. But for now some of us are going to have to do the work of two while being paid for one. Hopefully very soon I will be so lucky as to have forgotten what it's like to work for days straight. Then I will come on a forum and tell people that they should be getting off work at 6:00 and in bed by 10.


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## SHARYNF (Mar 15, 2010)

Sometimes I think the entertainment business and emergency response are one in the same ;-) Learning to be able to work round the clock to make a deadline is pretty typical. We all learn our own little tricks to our own bodies to keep us going. I'm with Bishopthomas.... off by 6 bed by 8 as they say in NY "FUR GEDDA BOUT IT"

Shayrn


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## bishopthomas (Mar 15, 2010)

SHARYNF said:


> Sometimes I think the entertainment business and emergency response are one in the same ;-) Learning to be able to work round the clock to make a deadline is pretty typical. We all learn our own little tricks to our own bodies to keep us going. I'm with Bishopthomas.... off by 6 bed by 8 as they say in NY "FUR GEDDA BOUT IT"



You know, now that you bring it up... What about surgeons who work for 12 hours on a patient? I think that's WAY more dangerous than me pushing up faders for 24 hours.

Thanks for the support, Sharyn. Not to be condescending, but I think some people do not realize just how great they have it. I can speak from experience. I used to be a technical director in a church, worked my 9-5 hours plus Sundays. But even then I would freelance on the side. Get back from a gig on Saturday night/Sunday morning, take a shower, and go straight to the church. If I can go back to that lifestyle I most certainly will (although probably not in a church) with a new appreciation of what it means to really work, and have to say yes to every gig because you don't know when the next one will be.


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## shiben (Mar 16, 2010)

bishopthomas said:


> In a world where everything operates like IATSE then we'd all make decent livings, have excellent working conditions, and be bright eyed and bushy tailed in the morning. But for now some of us are going to have to do the work of two while being paid for one. Hopefully very soon I will be so lucky as to have forgotten what it's like to work for days straight. Then I will come on a forum and tell people that they should be getting off work at 6:00 and in bed by 10.



Oh I understand that. I was just saying that the industry as a whole is not totally set on everyone working long hours and days at a time. Its more of a situation specific decision, I know of IA gigs where they worked for 24 hours straight, and made bank for it. I have no problem working long hours, I just take it into account and plan my work accordingly/bring more coke and order pizza more often. However, I really dont think you CAN be wholy alert and be able to respond to an emergency/show disaster after 24 hours... Now, if all the OP needs to do is run lights or something, they might get better after 20 or so hours... Best light show I ever ran was 30 hours into a 40 hour weekend (slept in the booth for 2 hours over that time)


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## SteveB (Mar 16, 2010)

bishopthomas said:


> with a new appreciation of what it means to really work, and have to say yes to every gig because you don't know when the next one will be.



I am finding your attitude offensive and condescending and as a result, entirely not helpful on this forum. 

If you don't like the type of work you're doing, go do something else, but stop bloody whining about it. Many of us have worked the freelance gig and then moved on, either by being lucky enough to get a regular gig, or by deliberately understanding that the certain freelance working conditions were not self sustaining in the long run and thus worked hard to find regular gigs. Many others work freelance but have learned pacing and how to better schedule themselves so that the type of work can be managed. You perhaps have yet to find that balance. 

To imply that those of us who do work regular gigs don't work as hard as a freelancer is absurd. Remember that we don't get months off after. I've been working a road house for 28 years. I am NOT ALLOWED to work the absurd hours on a regular basis as the management mostly understands the danger, especially if they want consistency from me as well as wanting to retain a good employee for a long time. 

So lay off on Ric, as you are shooting the messenger. Better to thank him for understanding the dangers of extreme work hours and taking a proactive stance to get the conditions changed and the message out there.

Rant over.


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## bishopthomas (Mar 16, 2010)

Steve, you have done a great job in misrepresenting my quote. Maybe you should be in journalism.  I was referring to myself in my previous job of technical director in a corporate environment. I am admitting that I had it easier than I knew and that now I can appreciate it. Never did I have to work very long hours, stack speakers, fly line arrays, tip consoles, etc. I am not complaining about having to do it now, only stating that I had a very cush job that I am sure is very similar to the ones of those lobbying for these more "normal" work days.

Sorry if you feel I have offended you, but I take offense when people think their situation should be enforced upon everyone. There will always be long work days in this industry. Personal and family life will suffer. We are not paid as much as we think we should be. But it's the career and lifestyle we chose, it's the way it is, so get over it.

Knowing your personal limitations is being safe, whether it's from lack of sleep or lack of education. YOU are responsible for making that decision, not your employer. And if your employer forces you into ANY situation you're not comfortable in (not limited to working hours) you have every right to refuse and face the consequences. However, there will always be someone who can and will do what you refuse so you must be prepared for that.

I don't look down on anyone for having a nice job where they get to walk in, work for a few hours, then go home to dinner with their family, whether it's someone in production or a dentist or electrician or whatever. But it's too easy for someone in this position to think that they need to "change the rules" so that everyone has the same situation. That's what I have a problem with.


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## SHARYNF (Mar 16, 2010)

I think the point that some of us were taking issue with was the equating of working long hours to working drunk and that it was totally irresponsible.

While none of us LIKE to work insane hours, the situation is that on occasion it is necessary and we all learn our limits and how we deal with it

For instance it is part of the training program with doctors to force them to work these insane hours, and they are performing life threatening activities

It is very typical in an emergency to have fire or ems work extremely long hours

Most of us have been in a situation where for a variety of reasons to make the show happen we have had to put in long long hours. 

If you look at the Silicon valley culture, having developers work 100 plus hours per week is not that unusual.

So I agree typically entertainment industry work entails crazy hours dealing with all sorts of people. So have I worked 30+ hours straight? you bet do I like it NO but when the production all comes together and meets the opening night curtain up time and everything works, I guess for some of us it has been "worth it" 

Sharyn


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## Ric (Mar 16, 2010)

bishopthomas said:


> Sorry if you feel I have offended you, but I take offense when people think their situation should be enforced upon everyone. There will always be long work days in this industry. Personal and family life will suffer. We are not paid as much as we think we should be. But it's the career and lifestyle we chose, it's the way it is, so get over it.
> 
> Knowing your personal limitations is being safe, whether it's from lack of sleep or lack of education. YOU are responsible for making that decision, not your employer. And if your employer forces you into ANY situation you're not comfortable in (not limited to working hours) you have every right to refuse and face the consequences. However, there will always be someone who can and will do what you refuse so you must be prepared for that.



I was going to leave this thread alone, I'd said my piece, and the points had been missed by some, however I can't let this pass.

THIS is the attitude that we have to change. It is NOT okay to work dangerously. When you are affected by fatigue or alcohol or drugs you LOSE YOUR JUDGEMENT therefore you can no longer make sensible and reponsible decisions. What you'd not consider doing hours earlier becomes 'if I do this I'll get the job done quicker...'. Much like beer goggles and 'that girl (or guy)' at the bar, you will choose things that after you'll shake your head about and say 'why the hell did I do that?'

I am not trying to 'enforce my situation on everybody' but raise real safety concerns. Are you aware driving drunk is dangerous? Then that job is done.
Passive smoking in clubs and restaurants is dangerous as well, at least here that has now been changed so these places are smoke free.
Is the message getting through that long working hours causes fatigue and is dangerous? Not yet.... Until someone gets hurt... or killed.
Stage collapses, seems to be a lot of them over the last few years...hmmm, perhaps someone was really tired and missed tightening something?

In this country your employer IS responsible for your well being in the workplace, and there is a legal body that prosecutes when things go wrong, and prosecutions start at the top and work down. This is making a big difference here; changing employers attitudes.


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## SHARYNF (Mar 16, 2010)

The problem with this sort of analysis is that there is no quantification. It follows the logic that if x amount of something is bad then any amount of is is bad to the same degree

The direct equating of fatigue with no qualification to drinking or drugs also with no qualification is not very useful.

So until someone presents for a given individual how many hours of sleep loss equates to how much blood alcohol level for instance scientifically, the statements are anecdotal. 

Sharyn


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## shiben (Mar 16, 2010)

SHARYNF said:


> I think the point that some of us were taking issue with was the equating of working long hours to working drunk and that it was totally irresponsible.
> 
> While none of us LIKE to work insane hours, the situation is that on occasion it is necessary and we all learn our limits and how we deal with it
> 
> ...



If you want a real dangerous situation to be working... When the US Marine Corps invaded Iraq, a large number of units involved were on standby for a day or two (waiting for a go order at any minute, if they were sleeping it was in the turret of a tank or something), and then in the rapid push to Bagdad they rarely slept, staying up on energy drinks and caffeine pills for at least 6 days, sometimes more, on active alert, in full chemical weapons suits and combat gear. So we have extreme sleep deprivation, lots of weapons and explosives, and huge convoys of vehicles, sometimes driving very rapidly, and occasionally people shooting at them. Read Generation Kill, they had some good methods (fairly effective ones). Also its a great book. Not advocating this kind of work for effective theatrical work, but it is _possible._ Just not advisable.


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## bishopthomas (Mar 16, 2010)

shiben said:


> If you want a real dangerous situation to be working... When the US Marine Corps invaded Iraq, a large number of units involved were on standby for a day or two (waiting for a go order at any minute, if they were sleeping it was in the turret of a tank or something), and then in the rapid push to Bagdad they rarely slept, staying up on energy drinks and caffeine pills for at least 6 days, sometimes more, on active alert, in full chemical weapons suits and combat gear. So we have extreme sleep deprivation, lots of weapons and explosives, and huge convoys of vehicles, sometimes driving very rapidly, and occasionally people shooting at them. Read Generation Kill, they had some good methods (fairly effective ones). Also its a great book. Not advocating this kind of work for effective theatrical work, but it is _possible._ Just not advisable.



Exactly! And yet there are people here who think that my 30 hour fader pushing is going to kill someone. I just don't see the logic in where people spend their efforts. But to each his own...


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## shiben (Mar 16, 2010)

bishopthomas said:


> Exactly! And yet there are people here who think that my 30 hour fader pushing is going to kill someone. I just don't see the logic in where people spend their efforts. But to each his own...



I think the point that everyone could get on board with is that we dont LIKE doing 30 hour days, and that we should try and do less if we can. However, sometimes it must be done, even though we dont like it, and realistically, thats the kind of thing they pay us for, to do insane amounts of work efficiently and well. At the gig in question, I am sure that there will not really be a whole ton of heavy lifting after load in until load out, which can probably be preceeded by a nap. I feel like the OP's question was more about how do I stay awake to make sure stuff does not get broken, rather than "we have a 30 hour load in where I will be the up rigger the entire time". Now, if what your doing is mainly hearding talent and running a hog or something, Im going to say that what would concern me is that the quality of the organization might suffer, and its not good for a person to do. However, I doubt there is much of a choice except napping during presenters or something. Lets be honest here, Im going to hazzard that every student on this site has at least once (or in many cases, many times), stayed up all night to write a paper and then gone to class the next day, and in many of our cases, gone to work the next day too. Its certainly dooable but not prefered. That seems to be what im hearing out of the thread.


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## Ric (Mar 16, 2010)

SHARYNF said:


> The problem with this sort of analysis is that there is no quantification. It follows the logic that if x amount of something is bad then any amount of is is bad to the same degree
> 
> The direct equating of fatigue with no qualification to drinking or drugs also with no qualification is not very useful.
> 
> ...



That's why there are blanket blood alcohol levels with driving. 0.05% in a lot of places. Alcohol DOES affect people at different levels, so a general value was used to cover the majority. Alcohol affects also vary from day to day on the same individual depending on such things as how recently you've eaten.

Part of the reason overtime penalty rates are in place, with such conditions such as a 10 hour break between working shifts, is to penalise the employer for attempting to make workers work with insufficient rest. There is a misconception that penalty rates are a reward for working long hours; they are compensation yes, but mostly supposed to be a deterrent to the employer.

There are a LOT of studies giving definitive results to prove fatigue affects are similar to alcohol, this is fact, not supposition. These studies go back well over a decade.
Google is your friend

sleep deprivation alcohol equivalent - Google Scholar

Moderate sleep deprivation produces impairments in cognitive and motor performance equivalent to legally prescribed levels of alcohol intoxication -- Williamson and Feyer 57 (10): 649 -- Occupational and Environmental Medicine

Cheers,
Ric


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## Ric (Mar 16, 2010)

bishopthomas said:


> Exactly! And yet there are people here who think that my 30 hour fader pushing is going to kill someone. I just don't see the logic in where people spend their efforts. But to each his own...



You may not kill someone at the gig with your fader, but how about on the drive home? Or during the bump out...

If your fader pushing has a quality attached to it, then you certainly will not have the same critical listening & hearing qualiity that you would have if you were freshly rested. Your hearing is affected by fatigue as well. 
Tonal balance, volume levels, all change as you become more tired.

Cheers,
Ric


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## SHARYNF (Mar 16, 2010)

the issue is NOT that sleep deprivation can have an effect like alcohol but at what level. The studies seem to vary quite a bit but here in the US the move seems to be to limit it to under 24 hours.

In another study, the surprising results were that Function after waking after 8 hours sleep had more degradation for 2 hours than if the person were up for 24 hours. A lot of the work is being done for new rules for Doctors/interns on call and Emergency teams

Sharyn


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## bishopthomas (Mar 16, 2010)

Ric said:


> You may not kill someone at the gig with your fader, but how about on the drive home? Or during the bump out...
> 
> If your fader pushing has a quality attached to it, then you certainly will not have the same critical listening & hearing qualiity that you would have if you were freshly rested. Your hearing is affected by fatigue as well.
> Tonal balance, volume levels, all change as you become more tired.



I already admitted to driving in an unsafe, exhausted state. I realize that it is NOT a good thing to do and I do not condone it or excuse my actions by any subsequent words that I have stated here. But for you to think there should be some kind of blanket rule/law that states that someone cannot work past X hours in their craft is ludicrous. You do not have all of the information and variables, nor will you ever.

Yes, I am quite aware of hearing and vision fatigue over extended periods. I am not going to be subjecting the audience to dangerous SPL's or frequencies just because I've been mixing a band for several hours. The gig I have coming up is a lighting job where the worst that can happen is I don't execute a scene directly on the downbeat. If the client can live with these slight degradations to my performance (and they can, as they will be there for as long as I will) then why does it matter? For you to think there should be some kind of rule/law that tells me I have to leave the console for 10 hours while someone else gets paid to do the job that I am quite capable of is ridiculous.

All I'm saying is don't judge everything as if it's the same. Personal responsibility and liability should come in to play, not a government enacted "nap time." I'm not rigging, I'm not using a table saw, and I'm not performing open heart surgery while tired to the point of physical or mental stress.

Shiben, I agree totally with your last point. Couldn't have said it better myself (and I've been trying).


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## Pie4Weebl (Mar 20, 2010)

I think about this the next time you decide to drive 4 hours after a 20 hour + day:
Carrie Underwood Crew Member Killed in Fatal Truck Accident | Country Music Fever
_A truck driver working as part of Carrie Underwood’s crew for her Play On tour was killed this morning in a fatal truck accident on I-95 on the way to her show at the MGM Grand at Foxwoods in Mashantucket, CT‎. The driver was carrying parts of Carrie’s staging when the truck careened off of the highway and plummeted down an embankment before bursting into flames. Reports say that the driver may have fallen asleep at the wheel while driving. The highway was closed off for many hours today as the wreckage was cleaned up. The show will, however, go on as scheduled tonight according to a Foxwoods representative. Thoughts and prayers go out to the family of the truck driver, as well as Carrie and the rest of her crew._


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## photoatdv (Mar 22, 2010)

Wow.... I didn't expect this to become the next hot topic.

No, I will not be the up-rigger for a 30 hour load it. I'll be running a console and mostly dealing with talent... so Shiben kinda nailed that one. It's also not really my bosses fault about it... there's only about 18 hours I HAVE to be there, and my boss will be there and working for those 18 hours too. The reason the other is back to back is that I'm a student, and cannot take off time from class to do that the day before. Not sure my exact schedule for the event yet, but it will be somewhere between 24 and 48 hours total (possibly 2 back to back shows)... if the 48 I'll have a nap between.

I'm thinking I may get some redbull and/or caffeine pills (or whatever else thinkgeek has) to keep handy just in case anything comes up where I really need to be on top of it.


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## bishopthomas (Mar 22, 2010)

photoatdv said:


> I'm thinking I may get some redbull and/or caffeine pills (or whatever else thinkgeek has) to keep handy just in case anything comes up where I really need to be on top of it.



I know I've been the "looooong gig enthusiast" around here but... Don't expect caffeine to do anything for your brain. You may be more awake but it doesn't necessarily mean you'll be thinking more clearly. You probably already know the effects of Redbull on yourself, but for me it does absolutely nothing. Driving across the country several months ago I drank a 5 Hour Energy AND a Monster (worst tasting crap I've ever drank, almost vomited) and was still falling asleep. And yes, I pulled over.


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## mstaylor (Mar 22, 2010)

Pie4Weebl said:


> I think about this the next time you decide to drive 4 hours after a 20 hour + day:
> Carrie Underwood Crew Member Killed in Fatal Truck Accident | Country Music Fever
> _A truck driver working as part of Carrie Underwood’s crew for her Play On tour was killed this morning in a fatal truck accident on I-95 on the way to her show at the MGM Grand at Foxwoods in Mashantucket, CT‎. The driver was carrying parts of Carrie’s staging when the truck careened off of the highway and plummeted down an embankment before bursting into flames. Reports say that the driver may have fallen asleep at the wheel while driving. The highway was closed off for many hours today as the wreckage was cleaned up. The show will, however, go on as scheduled tonight according to a Foxwoods representative. Thoughts and prayers go out to the family of the truck driver, as well as Carrie and the rest of her crew._



I asure you working long hours had nothing to do with this. The truck drivers on this tour and most any tour of this size do nothing drive. That means they have 14 to 18 hrs to sleep. Not to mention this is required for their CDLs to have a certain amount of off time. Now he may have fallen asleep but not because he worked too many hours.


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## soundman (Mar 22, 2010)

A side note about trucking-

Truckers can do about 400-450 miles a night (8 hours) with out hitting an over drive. Anything over 450 miles there is a pay bump. I don't know off hand what the legal maximum a driver can drive with out rest but most truckers I have talked to say that overdrives are where the money is and will gladly drive 12 plus hours a night, legal or not, because the bonus is worth the risk in there eyes. There are also outside factors that eat up their day, if a truck needs to get serviced or can't stay in the docks they will need to be awake to deal with those things.


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## mstaylor (Mar 22, 2010)

Valid points about a trucker or bus driver's day. There are exceptions that interrupt their sleeping time, but the point is they are not in pulling cable and hanging points. Some do sell merch for extra money. Most dump their truck and sleep in their trucks or the runner takes them to the hotel.


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