# BA vs. BFA



## derekleffew

So I'm advising this college student, a member here (you know _who_ you are) and he wants to transfer to a school that offers a BFA because he doesn't like taking liberal arts classes. He currently goes to an excellent school that offers a BA and MA in theatre. I think he's a sophomore. The school for a few years offered a BFA, but dropped it in a large, ongoing restructuring program. I've already told him that less than five years after he graduates, no one will care what his degree was. I've also told him many employers would rather see a candidate with a well-rounded educational background. So please state reasons why one degree is better than the other, either way. He's not sure if he wants to be a designer, but knows he wants to work in lighting.

Thanks in advance, now let the floodgates open...


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## Sean

derekleffew said:


> I've already told him that less than five years after he graduates, no one will care what his degree was. I've also told him many employers would rather see a candidate with a well-rounded educational background. So please state reasons why one degree is better than the other, either way.
> 
> 
> (Getting up on soapbox).....
> 
> I've yet to be impressed by recent graduates of BFA programs.
> 
> Sure, for the first year out of school they will probably be more informed about equipment, etc. BFA programs do tend to have better resources.
> 
> If he (student) ever wants to go to grad school, or maybe go into another business (ALWAYS a possibility with the theatre burn-out rate), then having a BA will be MUCH more useful. I'd even suggest that he NOT even get a BA in theatre. Get a business degree, or a history degree. You can always DO theatre in school, and take the classes in most cases. The degree will not matter to theatre employers, but will/would matter to other potential employers.
> 
> Though it does tend to be how people see it, college isn't just a way to "get a job." It teaches you how to think. Don't put on the blinders--get a liberal arts degree. It will prove much more useful.
> 
> --Sean (BA)
Click to expand...


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## soundman

Knowledge is power and the more you know the better off you will be. I'm working on my BA right now (a junior but cross your figures I will get out a semester early) and the theatre class are what I am paying for but the gen eds and my minor are my brain food. Along with Directing, CAD, and Theatre History One I am taking Maps class (Displays of Geographic Information) and Rocks class (Physical Geology) Rocks class can get a little dry at times but maps is pretty cool. Call me a nerd but the other day we talked about how and why different parts of the America were laid out and surveyed. Early we talked about the relationship between latitude time of year and the suns angle. <- lighting applicable.

My minor is Urban and Regional Studies which deals with how and why people settle and the way they do and what people do to change their area. (thats a really brief description in fact its a lot more than that but I don't want to get too wordy) It could be useful for scene designers but I find it interesting none the less.

Also a word on transferring kiss all your browny points good by. While you may know a lot and be getting crew head positions or even designs at your current school once you transfer you are back down to freshman level no matter how many credits you roll in with and you have to fight to gain the respect of a new TD. I have seen it happen to several student in my department.


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## Van

My Granddad once said to me, " You know, Van, a rectal thermometer has degrees too, and you know what you do with that don't you?" 

Ok, Granddad didn't have it exactly right. As a TD and a potential Employer I can tell you I really don't care what kind of degree you have. I do think the wider liberal arts education garnered whilst pursuing a BA will serve you very well in the future. I can also tell you degrees are funny things. As many here know SweetbennyFenton, a CB member, just took a job at a local school as a TD. He's a good guy and really knows his stuff. He's got an MFA. I've 25 years of "Real World" Expirience and a BA. I would never been considered for that job he has taken. There are times when the type or amounts of degrees you have are important, but generally it what you know, and how well you do it. As Sean said, there is always the "Burn-out" ratio to consider, having a wider background, if you need to go back to school, will come in very handy. 
Ok, that's my .02$


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## Logos

charcoaldabs said:


> I plan a BA in theatre something-or-other, with a minor in something else. A double major seems like too much work.
> That's my .01 cent.



Only .01c? A bit broke Charc. 

I've got a double academic major. Modern European History and Educational Theatre.

I've spent the last twenty years reading in world history to catch up.


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## gafftaper

I've talked a lot about my theory but here it is again in brief. There are 3 factors that help to get you a job in tech theater: education, real world experience, and dumb luck in who you know. All three factors are equally powerful. A lack of education can easily be made up for in real world experience and who you know. There is a basic level of knowledge you need to have for the job. Unlike EVERY other careerm you reach a point that it's VERY hard to say that more education will get you a better job. It can help, but education is not the golden ticket to a tech theater career. For every person with a MFA in theater there is also a guy like Van without. 

I once asked a well respected Mistress of Properties if she thought getting a degree was important if you want to get a job as a top designer or a T.D. Her response was, "Why would you waste your time getting a degree? You need to be working if you want a job like that." 

There are two giant regional theaters here in town. One T.D. has an MFA, the other T.D. has a B.A. (he was a temporary summer stock Carp who worked hard and everybody liked and was gradually promoted from within). 

Me? I have a B.A. in History and a Masters in Education. No theater degree but I'm T.D. and teach tech at a Community College. I need the masters to be able to teach there but they don't care that it's not in theater. The vast majority of my education was a two year period of community college volunteering hundred's (maybe thousands) of hours to work side by side with a T.D. who was a master of the craft. I spend a few weeks each summer taking tech classes at a local university to get some 500 level classes on my transcript. However, that's really just to make me look better on paper, I'm yet to really learn anything new.

I always encourage students to get all the education the can afford and can stand. BUT I also say NEVER think that the degree will be give you an advantage over someone who spent the same 4, 5, or 6 years working their butt off.

When it comes to the specifics of BFA vs BA. I don't think anybody cares except your guidance counselor.


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## gafftapegreenia

gafftaper said:


> When it comes to the specifics of BFA vs BA. I don't think anybody cares except your guidance counselor.



Or your mom.

However, I am in a BA program, and, at least in my experience, I have been active since day 1. This is much to be said for the merit of a smaller program. As opposed to a hugh state school, my department only has about 80 theatre majors. Thus, for actors, if you have potential you get cast, and get that many more chances to hone your craft. Similar truths can be said for tech. While people on our campus don't always even know we have a theatre department (cry), our graduates often attend some of the top notch grad school programs. Moral: All depends on your school and YOU.
In tech, it seems like the BFA degrees are much more focused. So, if you go for a BFA, you'll only being doing THAT work you chose to major in. Now, with my BA program, I am constantly working in my field of choice (lighting) but I also have the chance to branch out and try the other flavors of tech as well as get a rounded education.


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## icewolf08

The official name of the degree I have is a: B.F.A. Theatrical Production Arts: Technology Concentration. Hows that for a mouthful? Does it make a difference, probably not. The program I went to offered a BA, but it was less focused. But being a BFA didn't mean no Gen-Eds. It did mean that you never had free time because you had to take so many gen-eds in addition to classes in your major, and the gen-eds had to fill certain distribution requirements, and there was some crazy computer program with little islands and pancakes that told you what you had to do, and it was kinda crazy.

I feel like I got to take some very good classes outside my major though. From "Communication Culture and Rhetoric" to a math class that I was hand picked for. (though my math has since gone downhill...)

I think we talk about this issue a lot on the boards. Gaff's theory is very true. Then again, it also depends on the student. Some people learn better in a very focused and cutthroat environment, and for those people a BFA is a better choice. Some people learn better in a more relaxed and free environment and the BA is for them. Does it matter in the end, probably not so much.

The first job I got when I got out of school was one where they called me back and said "I was going through resumes on my desk and your stood out because you went to Ithaca, and I know a bunch of people who went there and they have all worked great for us." The job I am at now they were more interested in what I knew and how I worked than in what degree I hold.

Ultimately I think in deciding on a program it is all about how you function as a student. I knew that I needed a focused, cutting edge, fast paced program, that is how I chose. You can tell though that it is not for some, because of the students that started as BFAs only 50% graduated as BFAs. And you know what, you are in school, it is the time to make mistakes. If you don't like what you are doing, change it. At the risk of being the perpetual student, you can change as much as you like until you find the right program for you.


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## Drmafreek

As a professor I often have prospective students ask about a BA versus a BFA. My undergraduate degree is a BFA. And probably till the day I die I will advocate for the BA. Yes, I said that correctly, I said BA. I have now taught at three institutions that offer only a BA in Theatre. I have to come to believe that you get a general education in theatre along with knowledge in other areas of life in undergrad and you get into your specialization either by choosing what areas to work in professionally or by choosing a specific graduate program. As a professor I push my students to take classes in art, history, and psychology, to name just a few. To be a better designer and leader you need to have a broad range of knowledge, and the BA allows that. I remember as an undergrad not being able to take the art classes, or the history classes that may have helped me be a better designer. That's not to say that a BFA program may not help certain individuals. I am just saying that I feel that a BA is a better option.

Now to really jump on my high horse, I also push all my students to work in all areas of theatre while in college. I attempt to have my technicians do a little acting, a little directing, and work in all the backstage areas. I feel that to be a better theatre practitioner you need to understand where all areas are coming from. I've worked with my fair share of directors and designers who didn't understand where I was coming from because they had never experienced the technical aspects. That is another reason I push the BA, because generally you can work in any part of the theatre. Sometimes with BFA programs you are confined to the area that you've chosen, be it tech or acting. 

Finally, I push education a little more than real world experience to start with because it is easier to make mistakes in an educational environment. Now don't get me wrong, I have worked with some fantastic people who have no formal education in theatre. But I believe you can do a little more experimenting in the academic world without it affecting you financially (unless you take out tons of loans, like some of us.) I force my students to try new things without fear of making a theatrical company go broke. This can be harder to do in the real world.

Well, hope that helps a bit. I don't talk much on these forums, but love reading, and am glad to throw a little bit of info in from time to time.


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## Drmafreek

Charc:

Well, been looking around the forums at a semi regular pace since I joined in 04, but really started picking up reading the threads this past year. Believe it or not, even after 12 years of theatre I still find things that help me on these boards, especially from ship, who doesn't know it, but has saved my butt a time or two. And I probably will start posting a bit more, it's kinda fun. 

I am glad you enjoyed the post though.


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## gafftaper

Don't be shy Terry, we need to hear your voice here too!


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## derekleffew

Drmafreek said:


> ...Believe it or not, even after 12 years of theatre I still find things that help me on these boards...


I have 31 years in the business, and still learn something new just about every time I visit ControlBooth, which, as most people know, is at least once per day!

I've wanted a college professor, other than Gafftaper, of course, on here for a long time. So don't be a stranger. And please post your college's website, to save me from a google search.

Welcome back, to the CB.


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## Drmafreek

derekleffew said:


> I have 31 years in the business, and still learn something new just about every time I visit ControlBooth, which, as most people know, is at least once per day!
> I've wanted a college professor, other than Gafftaper, of course, on here for a long time. So don't be a stranger. And please post your college's website, to save me from a google search.
> Welcome back, to the CB.


The college theatre website is Lynchburg College Theatre. Please forgive the setup of the site. We are currently in a transition period, working on updating it, which hasn't been done in quite some time. I will no longer be a stranger either, except those fantastic tech weeks that come around from time to time.


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## icewolf08

my favorite part of your theatre department's website:


What's wrong with this photo?
I suppose he wasn't really trying to fly something in? 


EDIT: can you tell I have been bored today?


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## derekleffew

Nice catch again, Icewolf08. I totally blew past the picture on the website. Then in your post I looked closer, and am now going to have to re-evaluate my opinion of Professor drmafreek: attempting to bring in a batten WITH THE ROPE LOCK ENGAGED! Sheesh. But we did just discuss that the Rope Lock and "O" ring should be ON at all times unless a batten is moving, so I'll chalk it up to "photographic license" and let it slide--this time!


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## Drmafreek

Alas, the reason for the update of the web pages. But I have a good excuse. I just started at this school in August.  So, slowly but surely I'm fixing their warped ways. When I arrived the shop had two radial arm saws, neither which had been used in four years. And the lighting inventory had never been cleaned, and some of the stuff was 10 to 15 years old. When I said "Let's bench focus all the instruments" the seniors looked at me like I was crazy. But, we are heading towards the light slowly, but surely.

I gotta admit though, that is one of the funniest photos, and am gonna have to show some of my students tomorrow. And who knows, maybe we are looking at it wrong. Maybe he was trying to climb up the rope. Then you'd want the lock and ring on.


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## avkid

I wouldn't recommend watching the arbor when bringing anything in or out.
Watch the load.


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## Van

charcoaldabs said:


> Phil, we've already ascertained he was climbing the rope.


 
Maybe he was actually trying to push the rope up Ever think of that ?


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## Pie4Weebl

So as a BFA student I think I should throw my .02 into the pile.

Personally I am a big fan of the BFA program I am in. The structure of the program allows you to be much more involved in theatre productions than you other wise would be able to but still keeps you busy with school work. All of our conservatory classes are in the afternoons so during techs for shows, they are suspended to allow crews to work, the great thing about this is that all of our normal classes are in the morning so we can still attend those and try to keep up on our work in there. The conservatory credit hours also don't count against our GPA so we have to make sure to do well in our academics if we want to keep our scholarships and such. Also I feel the comments about BFA students being less well rounded is inaccurate. When I graduate, I will in addition to my BFA which has a focus in lighting and a second emphasis in sound, will have a minor in studio art as well as an entrepreneurship certificate from the university's business program. My other classes cover lots of literature, history, and some science. The way the program is set up also allows us the flexibility to work on shows for The Repertory Theatre of St. Louis which lets us gain professional experience and make new contacts. 

Its a challenging program to be a part of, and I do feel that I will be more capable to perform better in the real world after graduation than I would in a BA school.


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## punktech

as a current BA student, i have to say it depends on the program. my BA program is small and very involved, i've pulled 45 hour weeks (in addition to getting all my work done in all my other classes, i slept about 3 hours a night). i have friends that are in BFA programs that make them pull 45 hours too. but i've also heard of BFA and BA programs where you never even get your hands dirty. you shouldn't worry about what program is right for you in my opinion you should be worrying what SCHOOL is the right one. sure you can go to a school with an awesome program (BFA or BA), but you can still end up miserable because it isn't the right place for you. essentially keep your options open and look for somewhere that you can stand spending 4 years.


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## sobenson

My official degree is a BS in Theater Design/Production, not a BA. My current job the Production Manager, who hired me, said she would not look at anyone who did not have a degree in theater for the position.


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## icewolf08

Punktech does bring up a very good point. Almost more important than the type of degree is the school itself. When looking at schools, even if they have the top program in the country, you have to be able to see yourself fitting in there and being comfortable otherwise you won't learn. If you aren't going to be happy at a small school in the middle of nowhere in a hippie town, you probably don't want to go to a school like Ithaca. If you can't handle being in a big city, NYU or Emerson may not be for you.

You have to find a happy medium between the program and the school. One school's BA might be more in depth than another school's BFA. If you are getting a BS, well....  You have to find what is most conducive to your learning style and your pace.


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## Drmafreek

And the valid points continue. I'm gonna agree with Punktech and Icewolf, it most truly is the program. Not only the location of the chool, but do they have the classes you want to take, do they have the facilities you want to work in, and does the guy/girl ratio fit into your liking. Well, that's what I looked at when going into undergrad. 

But seriously, visit the schools and get a sense of the program. Try not to just pick a school without checking it out. And try and get as much feedback from current students as possible. Not just one or two, but as many as you can to get a more even sampling.


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## punktech

this discussion brings up interesting feelings for me. i went to college a year and a half early and went to only strictly "early" college in the country (Bard College at Simon's Rock, or until this spring Simon's Rock College of Bard, stupid name change). i love it here, and that's primarily why i applied, i wanted nothing more than to be here when i was 16. i then wanted to be an antropology major, but to fill my arts requirement i took a harmless looking theatre course "Intro to Lighting Technology" and fell madly in love (i had been a child actress and always loved having the tech then teach me stuff, and i played around with satge management in highschool, but never thought of it as a career). my BA program isn't the best in the country, and i have to take mostly tutorials because we only offer a few actual courses. but i'm happy here and can't see myself liking any other college or university. i like my program too, it's given me much more hands on time and raw experience than the BFA program a friend of mine just graduated from. i like who is teaching me and i have a good rapport with them, my professors do more than just teach me, they offer advice for stuff i'm going though in my personal life even. i'm getting an incredibly well rounded education, i am not only growing in my knowledge of theatre, but i am growing as a person. to me this is what college is for, to make you into the adult you are going to be. a good program/school will do this for anyone. when looking at schools and their respective program think about what you want and how you want to be in 4 years, do you want a close relationship with professors, do you want the best facilites, what do you seek socially, do you want to be in small classes (in my opinion a very good thing, more attention and better discussion). think up a list of questions and answer them for every school you're looking at, look them all over, pick out the 5-10 closest to what you really want, and apply to them.


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## sloop

My response to him would be. 

Are you really good at what you are doing... lights, sets, whatever? If you aren't really good and it doesn't come naturally to you, find something else to study. 

If you are really good and you know you are without being arrogant about it, the degree won't matter, you will find work.


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## NevilleLighting

*BA or BFA?*

I have been debating the merits of a BFA versus a BA with one of my colleagues. He argues that a BA is more accepted by colleges seeking Masters candidates and I think that in tech theatre a BFA is more the norm. What is your experience? For those of you in academia I'd particularly like to hear your comments, especially if you evaluate grad students. For those of you out there humping it in the "real world" I'd like to hear yours too. Or, does a college degree matter? Before I say anything about what I think and what I have done I'd love some feedback on your opinions.

[Edit by mod.: This and the following three posts moved here from another thread.]


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## highschooltech

*Re: BA or BFA?*

Well I'm currently attending Cal State Fullerton to get a BA in Theatre emphasizing in design and production. However, while looking for programs i saw some BFA in design but most of the information i found was for BAs in Theatre with an emphasis. The only BFAs offered at Cal State Fullerton are in dance and acting but the students admitted into those aren't told until the end of their second year. Not really an answer to your question but just a personal insight from the student perspective.


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## NevilleLighting

*Re: BA or BFA?*


highschooltech said:


> Well I'm currently attending Cal State Fullerton to get a BA in Theatre emphasizing in design and production. However, while looking for programs i saw some BFA in design but most of the information i found was for BAs in Theatre with an emphasis. The only BFAs offered at Cal State Fullerton are in dance and acting but the students admitted into those aren't told until the end of their second year. Not really an answer to your question but just a personal insight from the student perspective.



Thanks for the feedback HST. Very helpful. I have to imagine that it's odd for there to only be a BA in dance and acting when design can require a lot of art classes. Anyway, should you find yourself in position of seeing "White Christmas" at Fullerton CLO you will be looking at one of our (Music Theatre of Wichita) sets out on rental.


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## CBR372

*Re: BA or BFA?*

Currently I am attending Central Washington University and enrolled in their BFA in design and tech. Personally I feel that if you want to go to grad school in a focus area (like an MFA in design tech) then you should do the same with a BFA. I love the BFA as it does really focus on your area of expertise as well it does give you experience in other area, for example all design tech students have to take an acting class. Idk thats just from my pov.


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## SHARYNF

Here is an interesting link to a general discussion of College completion/dropout

I would have to say I come down on the side of BA. It really does help to have a well rounded education, basically as the English would say to be "educated".

Advanced degrees tend to be of value IMO in medicine, law, possibly MBA. Schools and the education system have promoted the push for masters and beyond degrees more for an academic purpose than a job/lifelong learning purpose.

It really does come down to a lot of who you know, and what you have DONE. Not only what you have learned but your ABILITY and willingness to continually learn. IMO lifelong learning is going to continue to be more and more important. Sites and communities where folks of all different backgrounds and experience are willing to "learn and teach" are going to be the key.

Sharyn


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## NevilleLighting

I have a BFA in Theatre Design, which I enjoyed because it made me take a lot of art and art history classes which have been very valuable to me even though I am a lighting designer. 

I also do a lot of hiring and I have to admit that I look at work experience much more than I look at education. For some positions the other big factor is portfolio and most of the examples I see come from college work. I don't know if I have ever looked at an applicants degree track although I do often look up their school's website to see what kind of program they are coming from. 

I agree with both the merits of a broader education and the merits of a more concentrated education. Quite often where the degree matters is back in academia-land. A look at today's Artsearch listed 4 positions for lighting professor, three of which require an MFA and one just a Master's in theatre. There is a growing trend to place more emphasis on professional experience but it's a slowly growing trend.


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## Grog12

I have a BA (and an MFA but that's not what we're talking about). Having gone through a BA program and having worked at a BFA program I personally feel that *generally* you'll get more bang for your buck out of a BA program. Lets be honest right out of the gate from graduation there's a good chance you're not going to work in theatre. I don't remeber the statistics but a high number of people don't work in the field they recieved their degree in. A BA leaves you more well rounded to work in other fields.

As an employer: I don't care which you have. I care about your attitude and how well you work. Period. On my current crew I have one person who's never stepped foot in a college, one with a BA and one who has her MFA from CalArts. 

I want someone friendly who gets their job done.


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## misterm

With the market the way it is, a BA will help out more because it will give you more experience in a variety of fields, which makes you more desireable. With a BFA, if it ain't what you been trained to do, forget about the job. If its what you really really wanna specialize in, get a BA, get a focus on it, or get your MFA a little later once you have some real world experience. as much as i love tech work, i know my strength is in directing and theatre lit. However, if i hadn't gotten a BA in college and dabbled in everything, there is no way i could be running this little high school theatre program by myself right now without those skills.
then again, our college had less than 20 theatre majors and we only offered a BA.....


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