# Hanukkah



## SuperCow (Dec 7, 2004)

I'd just like to wish everyone here a very happy Hanukkah. It started today, on 7 December 2004 (24 Kislev 5765).


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## ccfan213 (Dec 7, 2004)

chanukkah oh chanukkah come light the menorah,
blah blah blah blah blah well all dance the horah,
gather round the table ill give you a treat,
simintov to play with and latkes to eat!

speaking of latkes im kinda full from eating so many!

mmmmmmmmm gelt!


for the rest of you who arent jewish, a menorah is the thing in simon's picture, it holds candles, the horah is a crazy dance jews do to annoying music at bar mitzvahs, simitov are dreidels, a four sided top used in a chanukkah game, latkes are potato pancakes, and gelt are chocolate coins, and the group in my signature, AZA is my youth group!

24 Kislev 5765 is the date on the hebrew calendar
and there are a million english spellings for the word hanukkah, none of them are wrong, it is a translation of a hebrew word so there is not an official english spelling.


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## SuperCow (Dec 7, 2004)

I can eat latkes like there's not tomorrow! I love them. So good, with some sour cream and chives.

Hate the horah, it's so unpleasant. And so much potentiality for mishaps, it's unbelievable. The music sounds terrible. But the dreidle, now that's different story. I once convinced a cousin of mine that the gelt I was putting down was just really new loonies. I won, and I would have earned about six dollars (high rollers bets only). But I couldn't just take his money. We laughed about it afterwards.


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## ccfan213 (Dec 7, 2004)

haha, i have a couple of techno remixes of the horah and hava nagila, its really funny.
last year at my AZA chanukka party, we had those really bad latkes that come outta the freezer and taste really bad, so we played dreidel like a drinking game, except for latkes, evereone put one from their plate into the middle and the person who got gimmel had to eat them all by thier next turn, they were sooo bad it was hilarious! this year we are doing a dreidel tournament, we have brackets and everything!


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## SuperCow (Dec 7, 2004)

What does "AZA" stand for? I'm guessing that the 'Z' stands for Zion or some thing like that. Would you fill me in?

I have never played dreidle like a drinking game, except as a real drinking game, really. Nope, never. Promise.


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## ccfan213 (Dec 8, 2004)

z doesnt stand for anything but tzadik, we are the Aleph Tzadik Aleph, kind of a jewish hs fraternity, its part of BBYO (Bnai Brith Youth Organization). alot of fun and there is probably a chapter near u, we are an international organization.


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## ccfan213 (Dec 8, 2004)

are we the only two jews on this entire site?


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## SuperCow (Dec 8, 2004)

I think so. Let's find out...


*Calling all Jews involved in technical theater! Make your voices heard so Matt and I don't feel lonely!*


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## ccfan213 (Dec 8, 2004)

well its representative of our population in the world.... well no, there r less jews proportionaltely in the world than there are with just the 2 of us on CB l'chaim!


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## SuperCow (Dec 8, 2004)

Good point. I feel less dejected now! Actually, I'm pretty used to being in the minority in that respect.


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## ccfan213 (Dec 8, 2004)

there are tons of jews in central nj so im not so used to it. i was playin dreidel in history today


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## JahJahwarrior (Dec 8, 2004)

well, by blood ilnes I am not jewish, but I am a Christian, and Jesus celebrated Hanukah! I have not looked into it a whole ton, but i have a very good jewish friend of mine who has explained to me how it's perfectly fine for Christians to celebrate the Jewish festivals so this is my first Hanukkah, and i'm not Jewish by blood. It's cool to celebrate how God did a miracle with the Maccabees! you konw, ,I am passionately in love with my creator!

of course, being my first hanukah, i don't have a proper menorah.....i also kinda missed the first night  oh well.


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## ccfan213 (Dec 9, 2004)

well... im not quite sure how to respond to that, at one point before the catholic church switched to pegan holidays, the two religions had the same holidays but that was thousands of years ago. im somewhat hippieish when it comes to religion, find what works for you, not other people, if you wanna combine christianity and jewish holidays, go for it! i know someone who took the principles and holidays of judaism and made pretty much her own religion. shes also a techtor which is really cool.


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## JahJahwarrior (Dec 9, 2004)

seeing as I beleive Jesus to be the Messiah, that colors some of my "religious" beliefs  first off, I do believe that there is only one way to get to heaven, that is by letting Jesus Christ be your Saviour, I won't go into exactly what that means here. You can make your own religions..but the way i see it is this: do vs. done. religions are do. you have to do things to get into heaven. Believing in Jesus as the Messiah is done. he died on the cross for you, in your place. it's done. Religions, the do, don't get you into heaven, they merely make you work your whole life trying. Holidays are not what make a religion. It's the beliefs. The Jews are God's chosen people. those who will believe in his son, Jesus, as Messiah, are called the elect, the chosen, a chosen race, a royal priesthood. Beecause i beileve, I am a chosen person. Jews are chosen people (see, the confusion here comes in because being a Jew doesn't make you go o heaven. it takes believing in Jesus as Messiah to do that. God chose the Jews, not all the Jews chose Him...to be a chosen person, both must be true, both have to choose each other). I am and they are, so we must be the same, right? that's my line of reasoning, ther eis more to it than that i think, but that is my simple reason for why i believe Christians ought to celebrate the holidays of the Jews. The Jews are celebrating the victories of God, the same God I believe in, why shouldn't I celebrate with them? 

Yes, you canfind what works for you, but it all comes down to the fact that there is absolute truth, and the truth here is that your truth might be wrong. You can define your own version of what is true, but it might not be true. I believe very strongly in tolerance---not discrimnating against others based on their views--but the "new" tolerance is wrong--not only accepting, but promoting and standing for other's beliefs just like your own. My belief says Jesus is the way. If I believe that, then I cannot believe that allah is the way, nor can i believe that Jesus was not Messiah, nor can i believe that god is everything, nor that there is no god at all. this isn't really the place for a religious debate, but what i will close with is that I am glad God choe theJewish people, I am very very glad that He sent his message of redemption out to the gentiles, and I am proud now to tell of the miracles and victories of my most soveriegn Lord!


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## Peter (Dec 9, 2004)

Very very well put JahJawarrior, I agree with most everything you said. Christianity orignaly came out of judiasm, Jesus is the only person who has ever or will ever completely live a perfect Old Testament, Jewish life. And since he has done that, what was being established for many many years before his birth was created was completed and the world recieved an extended set of revelations in the New Testament (although nothing in the New Testament contridicts what is oultlined and alluded to in the Old Testament). 

One thing that I cannot stand, mostly with 'christian' churches, but also with Jewish sytems, are groups who follow part of the Bible, and forget about the parts that they do not like, or add things to the Bible that are not there. The safest thing to do is read the Bible yourself, (and not just one verse taken from here and there and used out of context) and study it to find what is exactly there. It is truely amazing how many things in the Old testament point towards Christ, (just about everything for that matter) and how many things in the New Testament point towads the one way to eternal salvation.


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## ccfan213 (Dec 9, 2004)

i hate to say something that may be taken as offensive, but i feel that in the interest of giving a clear view i should say this anyway and hope you will all understand i dont mean any insult by it, the old testament in english, translated for christian use is different than the torah in hebrew and sometimes the translations used in judaism, there are translations that are not accurate merely because there is no word in english for what is being said in hebrew. there is also speculation that the catholic church during the crusades may have changed a few words. i dont see anything in the version of the torah i know that alludes to jesus at all, however many things like that are left up to interpretation and translation. jesus was according to the new testament active in his faith and a good jew, many people dont like to acknowledge this in the christian world, but i consider the whole point of what the bible says specificly to be somewhat moot, i take the meaning of bible stories but dont feel it is important whether or not the actual stories ever occured, i think the lessons and being a good person are more important. the one thing i hate is people wo try to impose their religion on others or preach, like jews for jesus movements or people who try to convert me. im proud of my religion and someone knocking on my door wont change that, i feel traditions and holidays are important to religion because religion is both belief and culture and you must keep the traditions alive for the sake of culture and the beilefs alive for the sake of the religion itself.

wow that was long


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## Peter (Dec 9, 2004)

LoL if that was long, read some of ship's posts! hehe, but it was long for anyone else!

Just a point of clairfication, I dont use the "catholic" Bible, I use a Bible translated from the orignals, and I am very close friends with several people who use both an english translation and the orignal untranslated Bible at most of our meetings. I personaly am not talented enough to know more then one language :-/ 

I dont necessaraly agree with a bunch of the stuff that Matt said, but this isnt the place to go into it. (please feel free to PM me though!!!)


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## JahJahwarrior (Dec 9, 2004)

Thank you peter! the one thing I want to say about your post is this: i consider it to be very very very beneficial to go to church and listen to someone else interpret the Bible s well. however, read it yourself and if you find something that doesn't fit with what they are teaching, leave the church for another one, or go talk witht he pastor and see if there is something you or he doesn't understand, or have been interpreting wrong. My psator knows greek and hebrew, and he goe back to the orginal translations sometimes, and i learn things from him that i could never have learned myself, beccause i cannot red the original lagnauges the Bible was written in. 

ccfan213: please, say whatever you want! you have the right! nowadays we are being taught that all of us have the right to not be offended, and this is not a right of ours! the tyranny of the individual is becoming a huge problemin America, among other places. you are not going to offend me by disagreeing. 

Now see, i disagree with you that the translations are different. First, lets define "different." yes, you make the very good point that there are Hebrew words for which there is no engilsh. this will invariably lead to different words being used, but i would argue that they are not THAT different. The basic meaning is still the same even if every jot and tiddle is not exactly the same, just beecacuse they are different languages. The gospel message has not been changed because of hte translation. My next point, about Jesus being the Messiah, and his coming being foretold in the Old Testament, goes along with this as well. I am not very familiar with the Torah, but i am assuming tht you could find Isaiah 53 in it, ,couldn't you? find it and read it, and find that same passage in, say the KJV bible. If you don't have a bible around, www.biblegateway.com is a great website. I can garuntee they will have the same meaning, even if the words are slighty different. I know they will be the same. That passage talks about the Messiah, it foretells His life. 

yes, Jesus was a "good Jew," a good "moral teacher." That is what i assume you mean by a good Jew, because he was a Rabbi, a teacher, and a good Jew. Now, tell me this: if Jesus was a good teacher, a good Jew, would he have lied? No. If he had lied, then wouldn't he have tried to fix it later? probably. Now, Jesus claimed to be Messiah, not only that, but he also never ever refuted anyone else's claims that He was Messiah. Looking at it, if he was a good moral teacher, a goodJew, then he was also Messiah. Otherwise, he was a liar, and he never tried to fix his lies, so he must not be a good Jew. Do you see my point? 

As to thinking the points and stories of the Bible are moot, i disagree. to me, the Bible is God's Holy Word. it is inspired byGod. Every word in it is useful for teaching! Also, if youo look at what archeologists are finding, it all agrees with the stories and writings in the Bible. I can give you an example--Luke makes mention of "politarchs" in his writings, yet archeologists had never head of those. They had heard of other terms for politocal officers, but never found any references to a politarch in any of their fidings. The book of Luke was thought to have been made up later, dbeccause it did not agree with archeological evidence. Yet, recently, archeologists have found referencecs, for a brief time under one king's rule (forgot the king...sorry...i could find the information if you want it) to politarchs! see, Luke was right even when the archeological evidence didn't agree with him. 

be proud of your culture!! When i say holidays are not important to religions, what i mean is, it's not the holidays, nor the religion, that saves you. By all means, be proud, you are a Jew! I am not tellig you that you need to be ashamed of your culture. but it's not the culture that gets you into heaven, it's a belief in Jesus as Messiah. There is only one way.


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## Peter (Dec 10, 2004)

Thank you Jahjawarrior, that is more or less exactly what I was going to say! I have a quick question for ccfan213 when you say the stories in the Bible are moot, do you mean the 'stories' in the new testament? or the Old testament/torah too? The two go very very very much hand in hand, and I believe, the more one studies one of the two, the more they are pointed towards the other (although they might have to read the other to realize it!)


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## ccfan213 (Dec 10, 2004)

jahjahwarior, about the differences in translation, i dont read fluent hebrew so i am going on what people have told me, but one example is the word virgin vs the word woman makes a big difference and is involved in the description of how you would know the messiah had come. that is a factual translation difference that is not arguable. i am not suggesting that christianity is lying or decieving its followers, merely that some of the translations can be different and small wording changes can mean alot when people spend their lives sitting around analyzing the text. and when i say bibe stories are moot i dont really mean useless, and i mean both the old and new testament, i feel that the stories are there to teach a lesson and be interpreted, not to be held as the absolute truth, for example, i dont believe the whole golden calf idol worship thing with the isrealites in the desert, i think it is more of a lesson not to stray from your religion when there is an easier more superficial answer. i feel that the stories expressed in the bible make up the culture but are not an absolute truth. i highly doubt that moses raised a stick into the air and parted an ocean just because g-d likes the jews, i think it is showing how religion and belief can overcome armies. 

the reason i am so concerned about offending people is because this is not a religion forum, it is a tech forum and i dont want to do anything to cause any problems, especially since there are many ways to interpret someones intent in writing. i hope no one is misinterpreting what i am saying, i dislike the statement that my religion is the wrong religion, because i dont think it is, and im damn proud! but i am not trying to argue and i know this is a touchy subject. as long as we continue to discuss it civilly we can, but if this starts to get heated, i think it would be appropriate to stop discussion of religion and concentrate on tech, i will not be posting for another couple of days because i am going to a convention with my jewish youth group, but when i get back i will rejoin the conversation.


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## JahJahwarrior (Dec 10, 2004)

wel, you bring up an interesting point with the virgin and woman point...I will try and ask my pastor about that, i had never heard about tht before. thank you!

Hanukkah is the celebration of the time when God provided enough oil to light the lamps for 8 days, from one days supply of oil. If you do not believe the story happened, how can you celebrate Hanukkah? It is the celebration of a miracle done by the Most High and Only God. If you do not believe that the Bible is telling things that are true, that really happened, then how can you say you believe in the God of the Bible? I would not want to believe in a God who did not do miracles. I believe in a strong, powerful God, not some wimp who's never done a thing. My God parted an ocean once, think about it, He could have defeated the Egyptian armies in many ways, but I think he was kinda showing off, parting an ocean to let people pass through! My God is powerful, He's got muscle. He made the laws of Physics, it's no problem for him to change them and bend them and redo them if He wants. And this isn't just my God, it's the God you profess to believe in as well! 

oh, please don't let me tell you that the Jewish religion is the wrong religion. what I am going to telly ou this this, plain and simple: Unless you believe in Jesus as Messiah, you will not live the life that God planned for you to live, a few thousand years ago when he made the earth and the solar system. You will live and die unsatisfied, and after death you will be eternally seperated from God. It's not that Jewish culture is wrong, it's that unless you believe in Jesus as Messiah, you aren't going to heaven when you die. I don't want you to hear me saying that being a Jew is wrong, beccause God chose you. But, have you chosen God? 

I agree this is a touchy subject--it deals with a huge problem: who has the one real truth? do you? do I? I believe I do. I believe I can prove it. I believe Jesus is Messiah, He lived as a man and died on a cross for my sins, that He has forgiven me, and now I stand before God, not clean myself, but with my dirtiness covered by the blood spilled by Jesus. I believe Jesus was not lying when he said "I am the way, ,the truth and the life. no one comes to the Father but by me." 

PS: i understand what you mean about not speaking or reading fluent Hebrew, i certainly can't read any of it!  

Tech is a very important thing in this life. But what about the "next life?" what about after this one??


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## JahJahwarrior (Dec 10, 2004)

oh, hi Ship! yeah, short post!  

I can't quite understand what you say...but it hink I get the gist of it. I'm here to tell you that I've been raised baptist, but now attend a church that is more pentecostal, ,and my job is not to convert. My job is to show Christs' love. Jesus loved, but he NEVER loved at the expense of truth. My job is to seek out truth and wisdom. As it is, I have never found another "religion" that contains more truth that Christianity. Christianity and Judaism are closely linked, the one huge theological point where they begin to differ is with "is Jesus Messiah?" Not at all jews believe he was. Believing in Jesus as Messiah does not make you a non-jew. 

what "golden rule that unifies all religions" ?? do ou mean that all religions takl about doing unto othes what you want them to do to you" ? i think that is what you say. i want to quickly make the point that not all religions are equal. If all religions are true, then Christianity is true. If Christianity is true, then Jesus is the only way to heaven. If Jesus is the only way to heaven, then all other religions are false. If all religions are true, then all religions other than Christianity are false. Um.....that doesn't work. Also, I now that altleas the muslim religion blieves the same thing, but for allah. allah and Jesus are not the same, islam and Christianity are not founded on the same things at all. But nwo you ahve two religions for which the "if all religions are true, then all but this one are false" statement. It just doesn't work. 

anyways, i need some sleep. Ccfan, have fun on your retreat! they can be tons of fun!!!!!


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## ccfan213 (Dec 10, 2004)

i do celebrate the jewish holidays and i do bleive in g-d. religion is about culture and tradition as well as belief so i follow the traditions of my ancestors. i am not saying i think g-d is a wimp, no one can create a universe and still be called a wimp, as i said before i think of the bible as a metaphor for how we should live our lives, interpreting religious docrtine literally seems to me to be a little extreme. i follow the teachings of the tanakh (the complet jewish bible, the torah is only 1 of the three sections) and understand its lessons, the lessons i think g-d wants us to get from it, g-d created a miracle in creating the world and humanity, he/she/whatever type of being g-d may be does not need to show off by parting oceans on a planet g-d created. 
by saying that jews wont go to heaven you are saying that being jewish is wrong because being jewish means not accepting jesus as the messiah, the fundamental difference between judaism and christianity is accepting jesus, so to say that jews who accept jesus go to heaven is the same as saying jews dont go to heaven. i also believe in darwinism not creationism. i feel that the story of creation also teaches a lesson, the lesson that g-d created the world and in turn everything on it, but i feel more that g-d set events into motion like primordal soup, i think it was such an unlikely mix of amino acids that g-d created life in that way, like the mix of gasses that formed the big bang, but i dont literally think that g-d created man from sand and woman from adam's rib. 

my views are not representative of all jews, they are very liberal as i am a refom jew and are more liberal than the official refom movement's views, conservatives and orthodox jews are likely to agree with the idea of creationism and take the bible stories literally. one of the things that i have found about judaism is that it is more open ended than alot of other religions, for example there is no official "jewish" idea on the afterlife. for the most part jews dont believe in an actuall hell, some believe in heaven and there used to be a movement the believed in reincartation. another thing i would like to bring up is the whole jewish anticrist thing, jews did not kill jesus, romans did, he was a jew. and i dont dispute the existance of rabbi jesus christ, but i dont think he was the messiah.


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