# athletics director



## jobot37

he's out to get us! every show that has been done in my school (since i started working on them) has involved the athletics director screwing with our sound gear, he either moves it or dismatles it and we have to put it all back together in the precious few hours in between when school gets out and when the show starts, one time, he had moved the cart that contained the sound board and the amps and CD player, not a big surprise, but then when we find him and ask him where he put it, he claims he "can't because he has to go watch the soccer game" so we ask him if he can just TELL us where he put it, he still claims to be utterly pressed for time because he needs to _watch_ the soccer game, hes not coaching it or anything, he just feels he needs to watch or else he will shrivel up and die unless he gets to the game in the next 2 and a half seconds, so he runs away, and it takes two hours to finally find the bloody thing, and it gets set up and working in an hour, but we still had to do mic checks right before the curtain went up, but hey, another victory for the drama kids....(this post was written with he collective "we")


----------



## Mayhem

Does he have any part in the productions at all? Essentially, if he is not involved, then he should not be touching the equipment without approval from someone who is responsible for the equipment.

Sounds like your teacher/supervisor needs to have a quiet word with him and if need be, the principle.

Unfortunately, there is very little that you can do yourself, other than in bringing it to the attention of your teacher.


----------



## jobot37

Mayhem said:


> Does he have any part in the productions at all? Essentially, if he is not involved, then he should not be touching the equipment without approval from someone who is responsible for the equipment.
> 
> Sounds like your teacher/supervisor needs to have a quiet word with him and if need be, the principle.
> 
> Unfortunately, there is very little that you can do yourself, other than in bringing it to the attention of your teacher.


o trust me, he wil NEVER be involved in any productiions, he has no right to be touching the sound equipment, the director has had words with him on several occasions, and the principal just looks the other way


----------



## Mayhem

jobot37 said:


> the principal just looks the other way



Then it needs to be documented every time it happens and a formal submission made to the principal. If this continues to be ignored, then perhaps the director needs to suggest to the principal that he (the director) takes it to the district super if nothing is done.


----------



## zac850

The problem is with most schools there is a big fight between athletics and drama. At my school it is a quiet fight. Even though we take up half of their gym, we still try to keep them with space to play (try, sometimes we just can't, like when I need to hang lights on the basket ball hoops, which are very nice positions). At my school the rubbing shoulders are just quiet words whispered to others of the same department(I was standing next to 2 gym people, and they were talking about how we should just do all of our shows in room 15, the room with a stage thats about 8x10 feet, I tried to point this out to them, but they wouldn't listen). We are not notified when there is an out-of-school group coming in to use the gym at the same time that we are in a rehearsal for example. We (drama department) told the athletic department to get us his schedule, and they never did. The incident I am thinking about was when a guy came in twice a week with a small basketball group. After attempting to get word through to the athletic department, we just talked to him ourselves. He was very nice, and we worked it out by ourselves. 

If your athletic department is doing something to blatantly hurt your shows, such as moving equipment and taking apart stuff, and your principle doesn't know, I would say threaten him to go to the district. Of corse, I don't mean you, but get your tech guy, or your director, who ever happens to be in-charge of the shows to threaten to take the problem to the district. That should wake up your principle. If he still doesn't do anything, then go to the district.

The hard part about high school theater is all of the politics around everything, which is the thing that drives me crazy. You need to be careful about everything you do, and everything you say. You can not do anything to 'out there' like do something to hurt another department. What your athletic director did was just that, but respond with something carefully planed. However, I would suggest going to the district. 

That, and whenever they have there big athletic awards ceremony at the end of the year, don't do anything for them at all. Don't give them lights, don't turn on the sound, and (if you have one) don't raise the front curtain. That should give them reason to respect you. Just say 'oh, i'm sorry, I don't know where the amps, dimmers, and ropes are, sorry, i've gotta go watch a play" and walk away. (of corse, lock all of your stuff up, so they don't break it trying to make it work)

I don't know if this made any sense or helped at all, but, I'd say go to your district or the board of directors for your school if your principle isn't doing anything. But before you do that, make it known that your ready go to to them--it may scare your principle into doing something.

Good luck, and remember, a c-wrench "accidently" dropped on someone's head hurts ;-)


----------



## tenor_singer

This is the same thing that my drama club and I experience with every show. To make matters worse we don't even get a choice as to our production dates. The AD schedules all extra-curricular activity.

Here is what I did. I worked my rear off with my students and made sure that even though we're only a high school of 385 students, we would have productions on par with large schools... or even better. After a time and after many dedicated students busted rump to put on great shows, we created a drama program that is better known for qualitly than any athletic team we have. For example... our football team has 35 members and went 2-10 this year, and our thespian troupe has 75 and produced five high quality productions that sold out. 

I then went to the principal and told him that I will leave the district, noisily, if this bickering didn't stop. He sat all parties down and things are actually better. Our AD talks with us and guarantees us more (not enough, but more) time to put on our shows. 

The true bummer is that I still have to tear down all lighting and sound after each tech rehearsal because the stage doubles as a classroom, and I admit that we have a long way to go. At least the lines of communication are open bi-directionally.

Good luck!

Tenor.


----------



## zac850

I got through half of your post before I realized that AD was Athletic Director, not Assistant Director. 

I was a little confused where the problem was if it was all in the drama department.

Oh well, makes sense now.


----------



## jobot37

cant go to the district, private school, ya, it sucks
but we can deal with it, he just pisses everybody off


----------



## __WWW__

I feel bad for you guyz that have to be in the gym with the athletes. It was like that then the year i went to the school a new school was built with an auditiorum so i got luckey. We really dont have problums with the athletics except they get A LOT more funding, and thats about it. Maybe there will be a few people that are on sports and helping theater too. but its cool.


----------



## ecglstec

I know that athletic people (Directors) seem like terrible people when it comes to theatre, but there are always going to be people like that where ever you work in theatre. Your best bet is to try to talk to him or her and tell them why you need the equipment not to be touched. Leave a little note of the equpimnet saying, " Equipment set for [ your production]. DO NOT MOVE ". Be willing to work with him or her, if the athletics department needs to use the equipment, offer to run sound for there event, then the athletic department owes you one. It may seem likea good idea to complain now, but being civilized and talking to the person will likly have a better and less bitter result by both sides.


----------



## JahJahwarrior

we don't fight with the atheltic group at my school much..(private school) but, one kid got kicked off of soccer because he had to miss a few practices to be in a play. We rent the property and bulidings from a church, and we use their stage in their fellowship hall...good sized stage, ok lighting...but, this is the fight, our drama director thinks I'm some idiot who doesn't know diddly squat about sound or lights. The lighting is all pars, some 64's and some 56s, well some bulbs were blown. She was getting on a ladder and I remakred "oh, we need par bulbs" and she was like "yeah" and then later, after she got back with the bulbs (I never saw her take them out or antyhing, I just saw her climbing on the latdder) she remakrs to me "oh, they aren't par bulbs, they are """"" she siaid something or other...turns out, they had that DYS kit in the lights, sot hey use those little halogen bulbs instead of the Par bulbs...but she said it in a tone like "gee, you're an idiot, you don't even know what type of light bulbs these use!" Then, she was setting up lights (she hasn't run lighting that much at this school, this was one of our first bigger productions) (oh, and the booth is like portable) and I was there and she said she couldn't figure out how to do something and the tap light was blinking and a chase was on and she was pushing programand couldn't find how to turn it off of chase program mode...it's an NSI board, pretty normal, right? she siad she couldn't figure it out and all the lighting she'd run was on a comptuer and something like that...all I could do was laugh as I pushed blackout and it went back to 2x16 mode. For small productions like for our history festival, we use another room, without ighting. All it has are flourescent ilghts. I pleaded with her (I was AD, yeah I do acting as well as techie work...) to let me rent lights, atleast 8 pars. She mulled it over, and decided not to....the play was alright, it was Treaasure Island, we had a nice ship built, ,a good cave and stuff, nice set....but no lighting. For blackouts, they had someone by the door turning on and off the flourescent lights. SO stupid!! And, at the talent show this year, my band played...we were there early practicing with our equipment (just set up for monitors, not for FOH) and they kept remakring how they couldn't hear us, we kept telling them "it's only for monitors, come up here and you can hear great!" and then, an hour before the runthrough/rehearsel, they tell me that they don't have a soundsystem....so, I had to haul my butt around to get them a soundsystem...luckily, I had a friend who lived close by who I managed to borrow some stuff from. 

So, in our school, the fight isn't between athletics and drama, it's between drama and drama....(but, we do have good productions. Nothing gets moved or antying, it's just I want them to be better, and for them to admit I know what I'md oing with sound and lights, and they are willing to let their plays not ever get better, and to think I'm an idiot. go figure. ) thank God we don't have to fight with the athletic department!


----------



## Source4Spike

Par LAMP. Get it right foo'
-Nick


----------



## ecglstec

Hmm, Yeah it is a Lamp, not a bulb. I though halogen lamps could not be, or wern't supposed to be dimmed with regular theatrical dimmers?


----------



## JahJahwarrior

ok, the par lamp. Whatever. I am anal about some things, the whole "lamp, not bulb" thingis something I try to get right, but I'm not anal about it. 

And, I just assumed they were halogen lamps...they were

http://www.sldlighting.com/catalog/standard.cfm?FamilyID=300JCD

for the Raylight kit.


----------



## ship

Source4Spike said:


> Par LAMP. Get it right foo'
> -Nick



Actually it's PAR lamp, get it also right fool, or do I need to get into what PAR stands for?

DYS ray light kits are easily replaced by the standard PAR lamp. The teacher could have installed the lamp into the fixture by removing the "Ray Light" kit from the fixture. Most modern ray light kits use the same lamp base (GX-16d) as the PAR lamp they replace thus it's an easy lamp swap.

A bulb is the glass, the Lamp is the machine. Both are acceptable in certain situations. On Ray Lights, there is a 300w version usable in the fixtures, the proper DYS 600w version and the 800w version being used by the Kid Rock tour as probably the first use of such even higher output Ray Light lamp I specificified for use in their show. Ray Lights are nice and it has the future in technology in them given they as opposed to your HPL lamps actually do have a dichroic coating to them in making the filament burn hotter thus a more efficient lamp for a given wattage.

Dimming a halogen lamp is just fine at 120v. The caution specifically is about low voltage such as 12v halogen lamps when under dimming conditions. The 120v lamp will have sufficient voltage present for the halogen effect to take place as will all Stage and Studio - for the most part ANSI coded lamps have this correction/improvement applied to them. Also it's still in question about operation in series such as in a Cyc light on the effects of halogen gas in making them hot enough in general. Given series operation of a number of lamps as opposed to a single one such as in the kitchen lights at home directly controlled by the transformer. After that, a theater wave form chopping of the voltage verses a variable resistance dimmer would not matter much in low voltage lamps. Both will not get hot enough by specification to activate the halogen gas given the low voltage. 

Stage and Studio lamps specifically are noise resistant and under line voltage will have the same and boosted extended life. Low voltalge stage and studio lamps even if low voltage are also in general supposted to worl properly. This is more a household dimming problem than one of the stage in general.

Hope that educates and allievates the fears some. Unless the lamp you replace has problems, normally you won't have to replace the lamp soon no matter what the voltage. Given repat visits to the same fixture this than is something suspect.


----------



## ecglstec

Parabolic Aluminum Reflector - I beleive, just like a head light?  

Ship, what is the advantage of replacing a PAR Lamp with a halogen lamp? I always felt that my cyc lights (halogen) had a much slower response than PAR 64 Lamps. Wattage? Lumens?


----------



## JahJahwarrior

Actually, these whatever kinda lamp they were lamps, for the DYS kit, didn't have that two prong end on them ilke a PAR lamp. They had two rounded prongs. I wouldn't mind someday comparing them to the PAR 64 bulbs...one thing I've noticed about the PAR's and Leko's at my youth gruop is that they don't dim...they can be dimmed by the crossfaders, but the individual channel seems to either be full on or full off....but, Fresnels will dim just fine! (and, i've moved the fresnels' around a little, it doens'tmatter what channelt hey are in,t hey always dim, and the pars or leko's in that same channel won't...) 

And, thanks for helping clear the whole bulb/lamp/Par/PAR issue up... I'm learning here!!


----------



## ship

A halogen lamp is a tungsten filament incandescent lamp with Halogen gasses such as Iodine or Bromine in addition to others including the Argon and other gasses normally associated as noble elements with resisting the burn out of the filament due to a heavy atomosphere resistant to burning. This allows the filament to be operated at higher temperatures and efficiencies in that the spent/burned off tungsten from the filament instead of depositing itself on the side of the bulb instead gets intercepted by the halogen "effect" gasses within the mixture, than is re-deposited upon the hottest source in the lamp - the filament. It's thus a circle effect with the lamp burning hot, burning off it's filament, but that spent filament being replentished upon the same when it's run the "halogen effect" course of cooling and re-deposting. For the most part at least. Given the gas deposits the spent tungsten particles on the hottest source of heat, what wears away from the cooler parts of the filament such as at the ends of the filament, does not get as much re-stocked thus they often will burn up at the same rate.

More specifically, a halogen lamp is a lamp with this filler material as opposed to that and Krypton or Xenon added also to the filler which have their own advantages but expense when used in combination with the halogen gasses will boost performance more yet. The halogen lamp in burning hotter but being replentished does not care much about the shape of lamp given it's sized to stay hot enough for the effect to take place, thus it's in used in many forms of bulb either by way of a bulb small enough to retain heat sufficient for the effect to take place, or within a inner capsule of heat retention but also within a larger bulb assembly thus PAR lamp. Many PAR lamps and similar larger lamps use a inner halogen filament area capsule in retaining the heat around the filament but also being within an outer bulb assembly that performs as needed including if it has a reflector around the light source.

Halogen as a statement is not a differentuation as opposed to PAR lamp. A PAR shape is a globe type, a Halogen lamp is a statement of what's within that shape and going on with burning brighter in re-plentishing the otherwise normal incandescent filament as it gets hot and burns up.

The length of time it takes any fixture to come to full depends upon the resistance of the filament and to some degree it's convection properties as a whole as reflected in that lamps's general size and proximity of one part of the filament to another wrap of it's coil in gaining extra heat to make the whole of the bulb warm up faster, but the more metal necessary to heat up, the longer it will take to heat up. It's thus also a factor of filament length or size in relation to wattage thus resistance necessary for a certain filament size. In any case given the same wattage of lamp, a linear filament such as both on your PAR ane Cyc lamps will warm up micro seconds slower than a filament grid type assembly such as on a Leko where one length of filament is twisted and folded to be right next to another part of the filament thus warming each other. 

The length of the wire thus in part resistance or wattage also plays a factor. The shorter the wire, the sooner it heats up due to resistance. Resistance is sort of a complex formula but remember that the higher the wattage of lamp, the less resistance to the flow of current within it such a filament has. Should you short a wire, it's going to burn much brighter for an instance than a high resistance 15w lamp. On the other hand, given filaments provide light due to that wire within them getting white hot, the larger but lower resistance lamps need a both longer filament if not thicker one to provide that source of light sufficient to the wattage and resistance. In other words, actual resistance is different than wattage as a statement of work done but commonly also figured as resistance to load as it is in many ways.

A way around all of these wattage/type of lamp problems is to first ensure that the trim settings in warming the filament even if your board says they are "off", are set properly. The dimmer that when at zero is actually at zero is a dimmer that is out of alignment. All stage and studio dimmers provide a warming current to the lamps so that they don't just blow up due to cold shock from going from cold to instantly hot. This percent of the voltlage is about 13% when show to be at zero. Your board might say Zero, but the lamp is getting voltage anyway to warm and prep it's filament for getting very hot in too short amount of time. 

This in answer of loading and fixture speed at coming to full can be refined for a higher wattage load by adjusting the dimmer's trim setting to some level while at zero at the dimmer are actually at up to 25% in not showing they are lighting the target, but still have some induced at this point quite a bit of induced voltage upon them to warm them for a quicker start up. The other more sensible way would be to use your cues to warm them. Given the cue before they are needed to jump to full, what if you were to install a level on the dimmers for these fxtures a percent of the fader sufficient that the PAR lamps now in being on, don't have enough intenstiy to mess with or be observed in your design.

This cue of added voltage to further warm the filament of your lamps will ensure a quicker start up time given the filament is already somewhat hot. Such trim settings however reduce the maximum amount of output given it's lowest voltage setting is moved upwards. Say on a dimmer, it's voltage is when trimmed from 12% to 102% as a dimmer range pre-programmed into it for zero thru 90 as just being the range of control. Should you boost up that warming current output, it's overall intensity will be reduced by being at full but the dimmer set for less than full at it's maximum setting but it still warming the filament The Zero thru FF on the board will instead of being around 10% voltage to warm the filament, instead you could just adjust the dimmer upwards given a cut off output of 100% no matter how efficient of the fixture given it's voltlage is static.
_______________________________________________________

The DYS lamp by memory has a GY 9.5 lamp base, the PAR 64 lamp has a GX-16d lamp base. Yep they are different and the PAR 64 for the most part is almost an Edison based lamp in shape. In any case, the DYS plugs into the lamp base provided with the ray light kit thus it being a ray light kit. Now what do you think that ray light kit plugs into for power???

In the case of old ray lights, they have two wires hanging off the rear of them which necessitate removing the lPar 64 amp base from the fixture to wire it up, but in the case of more modern Ray Light kits, there is a lamp base similar to those used on a PAR 64 lamp at the base of it which plugs directly into the GX-16d lamp base provided with the fixture. Thus my point about removing the "ray light kit" - not just the lamp and installing the PAR lamp into it.


(PAR 64) "they can be dimmed by the crossfaders, but the individual channel seems to either be full on or full off....but, Fresnels will dim just fine! (and, i've moved the fresnels' around a little, it doens'tmatter what channelt hey are in,t hey always dim, and the pars or leko's in that same channel won't...) "

Expecting that the cross faders are working as the Master fader and not indidual dimmer faders, this is a complex question.

Your question seems to be other than the issue of lamps fitting into fixture's at hand. This is a dimmer problem it would seem that needs some details to answer such as the wattage of the dimmers, load on them, it's maintinence and service call program and a lot of more details. My guess is that there is too much wattage on the dimmers and they will only go on and off in being overloaded but the circuit protection is not tripping given the overload. This would be the classic example at least as described in an overloaded dimmer situation. The other option would be that the fixtures going only on and off are of too little wattage for the dimmer to notice, but that's probably doubtful.

It could also be something to do with the trim setting on your dimmers given a much higher wattage of the other fixtures in comparison to the Fresnel fixtures. A lower wattage lamp might show more variance in dimming than a higher wattage load given the same dimmer. Given your Lekos and PAR's are a lighter load on the dimmers than the Fresnels, it might be possible that they are dimming but the rate is just not noted. 


This also can be the case with cheap dimmers in that while rated for a certain wattage they are either blown out in continuing to service a larger load or the can no longer handle in dimming the larger load thus just go on and off. In any case, the dimmers don't care what the load is Leko, Fresnel or PAR, I expect if you loaded up your dimmer with a bunch of Fresnels, it would have the same problem with them in similar loads.

Going back to the halogen verses PAR question, a dimmer does not magically detect "this is a Fresnel and we like them" in choosing to go on and off verses dim for them as a proper dimmer might. A dimmer dims given it is not malfunctioning. When detected to malfunction no matter what's plugged into it, it is not a cause for just using it and accepting that some things dim and some don't, it's a cause for getting that dimmer in for repair ASAP as it might start a fire at some point. This is either a dimmer module burning out type of thing or at leas an overload.


----------



## Source4Spike

I apologize. I understand that you feel you must capitalize "par" in my sentence, however, the word (in my post) was shortened from the word "parcan" the name of the entire fixture. "PAR" would be the type of lamp, and also the basis for the word "parcan." I will admit, that "par" or "parcan" may be better suited as "Par" or "Parcan," as they are names of a type of lighting unit. However, I feel that this is a very trivial matter. As for the second of the words in my sentence that were criticized, I capitalized the word "lamp" as to emphacize it as the focus of my post. Furthermore, I did realize what "PAR" means, and the intention of my original post was to correct JahJahwarrior's incorrect usage of bulb, instead of lamp. Additionally, the addition of the word "foo'" was intended to add a lighter, more humorous, and less serious tone to the post, and to reveal to JahJahwarrior that I am not anal about the issue, just mildly irratated.

On a closing note, I would like to suggest to ship that he write a book about technical theatre, as he sure as hell has the patience for it, and seems to thrive on informing people as to the correct way to do things (this is a good thing).

Sincerely apologetic as to any confusion caused,
-Nick


----------



## JahJahwarrior

to Source4Spike: dude, as far as I'm concerned, we're cool. I overreacted a little..but really, I try to be correct and say lamp but no one arount here cares so I don't get corrected when I screw up... we cool?

To Ship: wow...are you an electrical engineer?? Alot of that went over my head!! One thing: ALL of hte lights I use are 500 watts. All the fresnels use 500 watt fresnel bulbs, all the pars I use use 500 watt Par 64 bulbs, from Sylvania, and are wide flood. All the leko's, they use 500 watt bulbs...not sure brand, but they are 500 watt! I still don't get why it would dim with those and not with others...the whole system, board and dimmers, are NSI. The dimmers are NSI NRD8000 dimmers, two four channel dimmer packs built into one box to give 8 channels. 1200 watts per channel...out of two of those, for a total of 16 channels, only 6 still work. The broken ones...most of them are just on, all the time.you turn on the breaks which give the power to the dimmers, and any light plugged into tha tchannel is on. Even with master off, both crossfaders on 0, the channel on 0 and the bump button off, with blackout on. Doesn't matter WHAT you do, it's on! I've been trying to see about gettig them fixed, ,but the problem is things just get broken! In the past week, four 1/4 cables died. We've ahd two mics (one a Shure SM57 that someoen ripped the head off of!) died in the past 6 months, and we just had to order more XLR's. Just last week, we couldn't find the cables to run sound from the computter and video cam (for the announcement's video) to the soundboard...the soundboard is dying (we will switch tot he mackie soon) and I blew up an amp (that cost $200 to fix!) because I didn't realize that when you bridge an amp, you have to double the minimum impedence (4 ohms usual, 8 ohms bridged...didn't say that on the amp, but I learned about how you have to double it alter. I was running it at 4 ohms...) so really, I don't think the minister of music is very happy with the youth gruop tech deparment....but yeah, the dimmerse are busted, and it SUCKS. SUCKS SUCKS SUCKS SUCKS SUCKS!!!! you knwo, a year ago 8 channels worked....I had the privilege of blowing up two of them myself, by plugging in a cable (there are cables that come out by the dimmers, and the boxes they go to are in the roof) that I suppose had a short init. (same cable both channels, 3 months apart) first time, I assumed I must have somehow had too many lights on it, second time, when NOTHING was plugged into that box, I figured the cable had a short in it. Your thoughts on what is going in the dimmers? both times, the fuse for the dimmer channel blew, no breakers did, and then the channel is always on, doesn't dim and won't go off.


----------



## rgsw

i don't mean to sound rude but it sounds like you have cause a lot of the damage, a bit like me really know i think bout it.

if anyone in england here watched party in the park and noticed the two blown bulbs on the 8xpar36 blocks - thats me

the "lost" supercycs - thats me (and the damn truck driver)

oh well we all have to learn one way - blow it up!

PS. ALWAYS CLEAN THE OPTOS ON ML's


----------



## tenor_singer

ship said:


> Source4Spike said:
> 
> 
> 
> Par LAMP. Get it right foo'
> -Nick
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually it's PAR lamp, get it also right fool, or do I need to get into what PAR stands for?
> 
> DYS ray light kits are easily replaced by the standard PAR lamp. The teacher could have installed the lamp into the fixture by removing the "Ray Light" kit from the fixture. Most modern ray light kits use the same lamp base (GX-16d) as the PAR lamp they replace thus it's an easy lamp swap.
> 
> A bulb is the glass, the Lamp is the machine. Both are acceptable in certain situations. On Ray Lights, there is a 300w version usable in the fixtures, the proper DYS 600w version and the 800w version being used by the Kid Rock tour as probably the first use of such even higher output Ray Light lamp I specificified for use in their show. Ray Lights are nice and it has the future in technology in them given they as opposed to your HPL lamps actually do have a dichroic coating to them in making the filament burn hotter thus a more efficient lamp for a given wattage.
> 
> Dimming a halogen lamp is just fine at 120v. The caution specifically is about low voltage such as 12v halogen lamps when under dimming conditions. The 120v lamp will have sufficient voltage present for the halogen effect to take place as will all Stage and Studio - for the most part ANSI coded lamps have this correction/improvement applied to them. Also it's still in question about operation in series such as in a Cyc light on the effects of halogen gas in making them hot enough in general. Given series operation of a number of lamps as opposed to a single one such as in the kitchen lights at home directly controlled by the transformer. After that, a theater wave form chopping of the voltage verses a variable resistance dimmer would not matter much in low voltage lamps. Both will not get hot enough by specification to activate the halogen gas given the low voltage.
> 
> Stage and Studio lamps specifically are noise resistant and under line voltage will have the same and boosted extended life. Low voltalge stage and studio lamps even if low voltage are also in general supposted to worl properly. This is more a household dimming problem than one of the stage in general.
> 
> Hope that educates and allievates the fears some. Unless the lamp you replace has problems, normally you won't have to replace the lamp soon no matter what the voltage. Given repat visits to the same fixture this than is something suspect.
Click to expand...


Personally I question whether the "foo" as even necessary. After reading a post as to why people don't post and that others are concerned about this fact because they want to establish an on-line family, why the need to call names?


----------



## ship

No offense on my part either in being one big or at least happy dis-functional tech family. I saw the "get it right foo" and the lack of also getting it right much less respect and I pounced. Sorry but I did not know you guys were busm buddies such as Wolf and I would be thus we might publically slam each other in calling names, but I would not expect others to do so to either of us. Otherwise without the "get it right" I will have not brought up proper spelling of anything. By the way it's two words PAR and Can, not Parcan. This would be as opposed to Ceiling Can or any other can type lighting instrument on the market. Leko verses leko, Fresnel verses fresnel etc. 

We all must admit that a lot of the leko spellings are out of lazyness which is fine but not proper. Leko as a I got these lekos that have problems is different than The Leko's in my inventory, as a proper name and specific item. Many times the typing we use is less official and more off the cuff. That's fine as long as the topic follows.

While not at work a certain amount of lattitude is expected both with spelling and how we type much less our mis-types or spellings. Gaff tape for instance instead of Gaffers Tape. This to a certain extent I do accept up until the point that I think it useful for those I respond to, do need to understand such proper spellings because they might think the way they are posting to be right and use such spellings professionally. Heck, just a few weeks ago I was criticized for how I spelled Soco much less the following Socopex plugs as apposed to Socapex as the proper spelling. Soco being the slang but confusing given the spelling of the slang. This correction by someone else in also not necessiarially being nice about the correction did serve a purpose for me in helping me to remember the brand name.

Thus in addition to the get it right foo correction that was not correct in itself, I did post the proper correcting in a similar making you feel just as small as the person you posted to way. 

In the end, I expect we all are above taking any posting too harshly we are all crew types after all.


----------



## ship

On the lamps, or my being an engineer, nope. While I might be considered one of two Master Electricians for a very large lighting company and possibly be one of the more knowledgable people in the industry on the subject of lamps, I'm just a tech person and no engineer. What I know about electrics and lamps is nothing special or at times I find it hard to believe that in many ways the more average tech person does not know. This AC Distro unit has 15 amp circuit breakers, how many Lekos can I plug into it was asked to me by our at the time assistant shop manager. Such things as PAR verses Halogen lamps, at some point I would expect everyone that calls himself a professional in this industry would understand and know plus lots more. As a student, this is the prime time to be learning stuff thus also the importance for learning what you will need to know, or at least will be best served in knowing. Nope no engineer, my standards for being a professional might be larger than most in calling themselves one but nothing special on my part beyond perhaps the lamp specs to which out of necessity I had to study given I buy and am expected to know them.

On the dimmers, I expect you already know what the problem is - your dimmers are screwed up and in need of repair. Such a shame that safety at times takes a backseat to budget. Safe to use a piece of equipment that is malfunctioning?

Instead of guessing about that or mic cable, I think it better for someone of like experience to come out and help you solve the problems. On line is one thing, yet without being there it's guess work much less those minor details such as bad strain reliefs are missed when not known to be concerned about. We on line supplement each other and help when comfounded, but it does not replace servicable gear in good working order and someone on site or frequently visiting it that is just as qualified (hopefully given the pay) to see what we don't know about. For instance it could be a total load type of thing on a un-balanced load to one phase type of thing either supplying a dropped or lagging voltage or lots of other solutions beyond the dimmer in question that I would pull from service until figured out in person.

After that all, I know less about dimmers/electronics and moving lights, much less sound than most. Kind of a "Jack of all Trades" type issue in what one specializes in verses what one learns in general I expect.

Refine your question and post it in it's proper place would be my advice. That and get someone out to repair your equipment.


----------



## Source4Spike

I love this site...its fun to watch one post create so much controversy over nothing.  

And you really should write a book Ship.

-Nick


----------



## Mayhem




----------



## Mayhem

Ship said:


> On the dimmers, I expect you already know what the problem is - your dimmers are screwed up and in need of repair.



For me this has to be the quote of the week! 

Oh - JahJahwarrior, if you want a second opinion on your dimmers - I totally agree with Ship. It sounds like you need to get them looked at ASAP.


----------



## JahJahwarrior

ok, I'll really try to get them to do that soon...I mean, I really want to use more lights!!  

Yeah, I donno...I suppose I have broken a few things..but really, that cable wiring having, atlesat I think it has in it, a short, is that my fault? I didn't wire the building! but, now I have that cord taped to the wall with duct tape all over the plugs until I can get someone tolook at it. I do try my best...I clean my stage all the time, try to organize things...but, because anyone can slip under the curtain, and because so many people are idiots, things get moved, broken, etc. Like that SM57...I turned on the lights and it was sitting on a music stand, with the head off. Someone twisted it enough so that inside ring thingypopped out on side...all the wires inside were busted, to repair it would have cost about $70....the price of a new one...(atleast with how the minister of music has like a business account or something with whoever he gets his stuff from) And, we had a carpet box for stage stuff, complete with locks and all...the keys? they were stolen (we hid them in a spot onthe stage, cause there was only 1 left, the other got lost I figure...remember, this was when I wasn't really incharge, I didn't think to ask tehd dude who was if anyone had other keys) and one week they were just not there, and fortunatley, the locks weren't on it, I locked them off of it, so incase we could't find the key they wouldn't be put on the case....we never found the key. Then, our youth pastorr, without tellnig me, took the carpet box and put some gaming stuff in them and stuck it in the gameroom....so, he just left all oru stuff out on stage...we hav eno box to stck things in so things get stolen or broken, like we had three rolls of duct tape, all gone in two weeks. Powerstrips? three new ones, two gone in a month. What can I do?? I ask almot every week for him to get us a new box, he always says "ok, sometime" and he never does. 

Now, the amp blwing...that was my fault, but I learned my lesson, and I won't screw that up again. But, it worked for a few weeks before blwoing!


----------



## tenor_singer

ship said:


> No offense on my part either...



Ship, I wasn't directing my previous post at you... i just forgot to delete the html quoting you, sorry. I was directing it at the person who posted the original "foo" comment.

The only reason why I responded initially was that I have recommended that my stage manager and technical director use this site as a resource. I want them to be able to freely post their questions without perceiving themselves as stupid. When I saw the original comment quibbling as to whether it was a PAR lamp versus par bulb and calling the original poster a "foo" I became concerned. That kind of talk will lessen the educational value of this forum because not every young adult using these boards will have a thick skin. They may simply decide to not come back and that would be a shame because they can learn a lot here.

Controversy not-withstanding... comments like that simply aren't necessary.


----------



## ecglstec

Wow. I missed all that. If I pissed you off, Sorry.


----------



## ship

okay, we in being a "Lively Art" as some text book I once studied under pronounced what we do as, we all have our own passions that get flaming and fun at times but in the end if new people that don't understand our little squabbles don't understand, such squabbles in us all being tech do end in understanding. Just don't tred on our space if you are not.

In any case the question of PAR's is for the most part answered and other questions should be re-posted I believe in either what went wrong type things or other questions. For me I keep telling my boss that without a qualified and perminant assistant I can't possibly handle more projects in things to re-wire, yet every day there is another thing added to my to get done list. I care about 400amp three phase AC Distro packs exploding during a show, but don't have the time to re-wire them, what's you own solution given you keep adding to my own work load?

Long story on my own part having added some 1,200w ballasts to follow spots added to my list of things to fix today. Something anyone can do for me, no but something I have the hope to get done amongst other projects also, nope.

What went wrong, stuff blew up on all types of equipment and while my name was not yet on any gear that blew up, such a chance is coming soon. Much less given the work load of projects somehow I am only either qualified or trusted to fix given a lack of training or remembering by everyone elese trained, I'm stuck.

Idiots, some. Lots of others that seek the glory of the stage but think that them being on it is sufficient and no further study is necessary in being a pro at it. Me I studied and have to cover for their professional lack of professional ability. Next person asking for a screw without having a concept of what type of screw it is they hold - yet want one anyway, watch out. Last person got his screw but of the wrong wire size. Next person will be lost in trying to figyure out what to ask for I expect.

Meanwhile I'm contacting vendors to find not just the description but the part number for the new GE CSR 700SA lamp so I have a hope of finding it's lamp specifications so as to tell the difference between it and the Philips or Osram lamps. Don't always expect anyone to know the major difference between a SA and say non-SA lamp, or differenences between brands but I do expect them to ask for the lamp they need.

Need a vacation.


----------



## JahJahwarrior

call me an idiot, but whats' an SA or non SA lamp??? never heard of those....

See, I know the most about our system in the techie realm at my church, other than the minister of music, (he knows like EVERYTHING about it, is way smarter than I am!) and even I dont' know about wiring those 400 amp three phase ac distro thingies...not even exactly sure what those are...you sound like a professional!! 

But, atleast most of the time, I know what scrwe to ask for!! If I don't, I'll find similar screws and compare.


----------



## ship

Sorry about the long rant above, it’s been about six weeks of long hours, lots of projects needing to get done and out the door, and even more gear coming in with very little of it going out by way of anyone but me to repair it. An un-realistic amount of gear and like every week up to now I’m already booked solid thru next week without even repairing anything or working on the long term re-wiring projects. Much less new projects added.
Rants beat coming home to kick the cat, much less let me remember the things I forget by the end of the day so I can send myself an E-Mail in reminding myself for the next day given I usually don’t even get a chance to turn on my computer at work for a few hours to see what’s added to the list.



Nope, you are not an idiot, just have not learned about such things yet just as I before last week had no idea of what an I-bot/pod or what ever that song collection thing is which stores a few thousand songs.

A SA lamp is a Short-Arc metal halide stage and studio lamp for a moving light of a type normally having boosted output over other lamps of it’s wattage and frequently shorter start up or cool down periods if I remember right as a further detail about them. They also are commonly but not only (if I remember a few newer ones) found in lamps without an outer globe over them. These lamps are also frequently very temperamental over that of other metal halide lamps in not having a outer globe than cooling down too fast, much less pinch seal problems in the past where the lamp would just get too hot and attack the place the lamp was pinched together at. Simply put at least with that pinch seal issue with these turbo charged lamps. I believe this problem is why most lamps now of all types including Stage and Studio halogen types have some form of new pinch seal technology. Once they solved the problems with the 700SA lamp, the technology followed to other types.

In any case, this is a Philips catalog description if I remember the source: (Note some parts of the description have changed.)

SA = Short Arc, can be operated on magnetic ballasts. Preferable is the use of power stabilized electronic ballasts. Does not have outer globe. The run-up time is maximum two minutes ,their restrike time is 5-10 minutes, depending on cooling conditions, dimming is not possible. Lamps are usually hot restartable and have small compact dimensions. Lamps with outer bulbs on the other hand are easier to handle, provides optimum noise suppression when operated with electronic control gear. The outer jacket improves the dimming characteristics and allows the lamp to be used in any position, but makes cool down time longer for restrike and maint. purposes. 



A AC Distro unit is like a home’s main circuit breaker panel except in this case it’s three phases of hot wires and rated for 400 amps each in having 96 circuit breakers at 20 amps plus other types of outputs and feed thru’s. Such things are portable for road shows in powering up the moving lights primarily amongst other things and can cost as much as a dimmer system. 

While initially written, I won’t go into the problems with the AC Distro units or the to do list for Friday, besides this is the second round of upgrades to them now and these racks are not fun to be inside of. This upgrade I just started is going to take about 10 hours per rack to do out of about 16 of them. One of many upgrade projects on my list at this point.


----------



## JahJahwarrior

dude.....your job sounds ike stressful, but intersting. 


We finally sent off our dimmer packs to be fixed!! We don't have hree phase 400 amp distro thingies....and 96 circuit breakers??? like, the ones in a homne circuit breaker panel??? man....

Ok, so like some SA lamps are just the filament?? so, it's just a really hot piece of metal, it doesn't uses gasses to obtain light? (like a halogen light utilizes halogen gas to make brighter lights) wierd...lots of stuf fI don't know!


----------



## ship

My job is for the most part fun and interesting even if stressful and harsh in work load at times. Part of that stress for me initially as the person buying lamps became the difference between an EVC and ELC lamp. The GE catalog’s description of both lamps was exactly the same and in fact it’s probably the same inner capsule. Constantly bought the wrong lamp to the extent that I almost lost this part of my job because of it. Lamp vendors only confused me more, the only thing that would help was further study on my own, and taking notes that eventually evolved into that book at one time I was writing and a 25KB table comparing one lamp to another based upon common attributes of all lamps. The primary difference by the way is that one is a MR-16 lamp, the other does not have that reflector around it. Unfortunately the catalog did not mention that little detail which prevented a ELC from fitting into a Trackspot - something in the past I have bought about 900 a year for in resale lamps.

By the way, don’t call me “dude” wrong generation and I’m not looking for my car. While online and buddies, to me such a non-proper phase in calling someone is far too superficial and even offensive to me at least. Nobody calls me dude - one of them little quarks about me probably stemming from the military. No need to apologize as I realize no offense was meant. Don’t call me Mr. either, I’m not my dad in a similar way and I work for a living thus am not Sir.



Most higher wattage multi-vapor lamps from a street light to a stage and studio lamp have a double lamp to them along with a lot of halogen lamps - especially in the home owner version. This inner globe similar to a fat RSC/T-3 pinched at both ends like work light lamp you will frequently see within the outer globe. This optimizes the size of the globe necessary for the lamp to be most efficient in operating or holding the temperature for the gas - which ever it is to work with. It can also be crucial for bulb pressure given the heat as the outer globe will help to reinforce the inner globe in expansion and contraction due to heat. This inner globe than once sealed within another globe assembly has certain advantages in being able to add a reflector assembly, a outer bulb that you can touch without needing to clean it afterwards (depending upon the type of bulb and it’s thickness) to further retaining heat or insulating the inner globe from exterior temperatures. The outer globe also allows the possibility to frost the outer globe on high wattage lamps without possibly compromising the ability to withstand temperatures or pressures. No matter if it is an inner frosted coating, etched which can reinforce the bulb to a certain extent ceramic based paint or an outer sand blasted one, such coatings retain more heat than clear glass. Such frosted lamps like on a cyc or scoop lamp will as an advantage allow for a larger surface dia. of light output which has defiant advantages over clear lamps when a soft beam of light is desired thus the use of frosted lamps inside of an incandescent strip light as opposed to clear ones. Anyone using a clear lamp in such soft wash fixtures should switch. To some extent a PAR flood lamp will also have frosting involved as with the lenses to Fresnels.

The MSR 700SA lamps for instance on the necessity of outer globes in a bulb, in this case without an outer globe had problems in exploding due to the temperature the inner bulb worked at when cooled down too soon after shut down or at times when operating given it was normally a fan shut down issue while operating with them after the pinch seal issues similar in many ways to the low voltage lamps above. Some studio versions of moving lights don’t even require fans to operate, they do require outer globe lamps thus or their lamps would get really hot or expire without a fan cooling it to the rate necessary. To a certain extent, you don’t want to cool it too fast and you don’t want to cool it too slow after operating. 

The glass on the MSR 700SA lamp as some form of monumental lamp in my opinion as a pain in the rear when introduced simply could not take the change or differences in temperature which on other lamps with an outer globe will not have had as much of a problem with. The glass at the pinch seal where wires feeding the lamp go from outside atmosphere to inner atmosphere is frequently a wee bit cooler than the inner lamp area and pressures involved in spreading the glass much less expansion and contraction of the foil lead in wires cause problems with helping to break that pinch seal. Six months, six fixtures and sixty lamps at about $145 each by my memory of some of the initial fixtures everyone wanted to use in having both these lamps and some programming issues with the fan shutting off. Note this was not as much an issue with the HES fixture using this lamp but another one I will not name. Once said fixtures are specified and out on a rock tour, all you can do is supply the lamps they burn thru in the hopes as eventually happened that the burn up issue both at the lamp manufacturer and fixture company will eventually solve the problems. Until then in this case it cost us $8,700.00 to keep the fixtures running on the tour until the problems were solved. 

Wanna work for a high tech lighting company? Sometimes such issues of the newest gear you work with and are necessary to purchase due to a designer’s can’t live without request have a few expensive bugs to them you than have to pay for at least in keeping them running as long at the tour is going. That MAXXYZ desk (in another debate) that had the Martin rep fly out to solve bugs with it for instance is a part of the things going on with using the latest in gear. Somehow especially at smaller profile houses, it might be less frequent the direct help especially if a major bug with the fixture which is factory orientated and not just a programming issue. The original Power Cyc units for instance used to use a custom high output MSI 1800 metal halide lamp of incredible intensity but for me at least $366.00 each. Still have 9 of them in stock because this was the minimum amount I could keep in stock for about 12 fixtures at the time given the rate of blown up lamps. Unfortunately what the manufacturer did not consider is perhaps the fixtures would not be used at a horizontal angle to which the lamp was not designed for less than, much less other slight problems with it. Lots of blown lamps later, and a total replacement of all fixtures using that lamp, it’s a key moving light wash light in the industry now. Getting in on that moving light at the start however cost lots of money given the blown lamps in bata testing it. Them lamps I still stock are lost profit at $3,294.00 I have sitting on the shelf without a use because while necessary at one point, they are now obsolete. Talking about stress - every year our accountants no doubt see this figure and it reflects badly on the trust I have in keeping up a $100K inventory in spare lamps for both our use and resale. Talking about the stress of job security amongst people that have in stock this OEM (something like end user non-normal stock) lamp, such things as lost profit in what I bought in addition to the possibility that what I wire could blow up during a show in a very bad way much less kill someone has a certain amount of stress for me. Thus often my hard line and very specific posts relating to the world I exist in. 

Fortunately most blown lamps in not living up to the expected lamp life of the lamp were able to be returned thus were credited with replacement or reimbursement after tested by the manufacturer in having a warranty issue problem. Such warranty issues however often take three months to confirm thus paid for, and don’t get reimbursed either in shipping charges or if they decide the lamp lived a good life and failed somewhat before expectation but still in living a good life at the manufacturer’s choice often don’t get reinbersed. Moving lights while cool are big business and expensive to keep operating. If your theater program has a problem in you getting fresh lumber or a box of screws to build with, much less a few more Lekos, wishing to go moving light is probably a pipe dream in once you get it, you won’t be able to afford lamps to it. $145.00 for this specific MSR 700SA lamp, my prices from (possibly) “grey market” sources are much cheaper in the $134.00 range but still not cheap enough much less I have to wait until someone boards a plane with them instead of paying the terrif on such lamps. This can often take weeks and not allow for a premature failure of the lamp return. Given they will once quoted not come back three weeks later when you call asking where your lamps are say, “sorry, I can’t get them” or they are going to be a little more expensive. This at best grey market verses $95.00 for a other domestic brand of copycat lamps with known quality control issues in our last test of them verses I believe I was posting about the Osram/GE alternative solutions in being cheaper to the Philips. In my bulk purchasing I’m down to about $123.00 for this lamp by way of one of the above name brands but given the alternate company VeraLite uses am mandated to use the company of questionable quality control of their lamps now at least for giving them another chance. The only thing I have not tried yet is Ushio much less opening up a new account with someone else trying as a sales person to become “my best friend” in wishing to become my exclusive supplier above the others. So many lamp suppliers, so little time on my part to deal with them, much less even Grainger wanting to become my supplier but once they get the price I am currently paying with a lot of effort on my part in shopping around, suddenly they become silent. Hmm, two vendor reps from Grainger later in coming out to visit me and wanting to become my lamp supplier, and the second is acting like the first in after he gets the info from me not saying I can save you money given our large volume sales purchasing power. Perhaps if I were to go back to how it was before I started buying lamps they might improve my costs. As I remember it, it was somewhere around $16.95 per HPL 575w/C lamp. Now I’m at $13.90 per lamp but with a lot of effort as my job became. EIKO and lots of other companies call me on a monthly basis - is there anything I can do for you? Other companies such as ABCO/Westinghouse or GE consider my accounts with them sleeper accounts and don’t really give me much of a price break. I thus get better prices thru the distributers. Even quoted $100.00 on the MSR or in this case given MSR is a proprietary name for a Philips lamp, the AMHK 700SA lamp thru the vendor yet thru a distributer it’s $95.00. 

This as opposed to $145.00 for the proper Philips lamp thru the most hungry of distributers but those that don’t buy illegal grey market lamps, much less have them in stock to overnight to a show. Given I get sufficient notice in lamp needs. Hmm, 3PM Central Standard Time and UPS is about to pick up from us and you need an AM delivery in New York where shipping much less businesses are about to close down for the day? That about means that while often the West Coast 1PM suppliers are often not the best price, at lest they can ship your lamp needs across the country in time for your needs even if stupid in price for doing so. Thirty suppliers or so plays a factor at times thus in just being able to get a lamp across the country after shipping hours are done with for next day delivery. This much less overnight AM deliveries to Birmingham England from New York. Customs - the chance at times I take if a 120v lamp and not on the island. Either that or wait until the tour hits Russia where shipping is even more chancy, or it’s on a boat to Australia thus it’s going to be a while now that we need even more lamps yet.

I believe Ushio is buying this specific lamp from Philips in that they don’t make it yet and are hungry for more business from me, given they buy more moving light lamps from Philips than I do that in talks with a vendor rep from Philips don’t even rate a followup E-Mail to his vist to me, given the vendor rep I met with no doubt by now is more prone to selling washing machines than selling lamps given the lack of followup. A sales person with many sales people is a sales person. One minute they sell lamps, the next washing machines. Want real knowledge about lamps, inquire elsewhere like Control Booth, to them it’s how many you buy per year and how much they can get away with charging you. I’m not a sales person when I don’t have to be but even with us though I could kill the local Chicago suppliers in retail price, our sales people do the same in what they can get away with in fleecing the customer. Had I the time and interest in pissing off our completion we work with, Design Lab, Grand Stage and Chicago Spotlight could about close their doors in sales given my more honest or at least for me direct from markup pricing. Such an effort however is bad for business and given the amount of gear to fix is bad for my time usage and business to business relations. I remember the days of paying $28.00 for a EHD lamp, now that’s $11.50 for me at least given at the time I did not care about the brand over shock value of price. In some ways in leaving theater, I had to sell out what I used to hold in value to me as a small time theater TD as opposed to what I could do but did not have the time to even at a 1.3% fair markup presue in offering in price to my brothers still doing the art. Last time I did have time and did send out an E-Mail to such sources and brothers, they were too lazy to leave the D-Lab connection anyway even if months later they did need to purchase the lamps. Other tech people in the low budget industry constantly piss me off in not saving notes about who is cheap in price or at least taking the time to compare prices such as I make time for now. I don’t bother with my low budget theater buddies I once made anymore in that they besides one source I provide limited supplies to, never contacted me. Enough for my being a brother in paying prices I could not afford, I now avoid sales if I can help it. Such stress and souring of such things from my brothers in the local industry in adding to my stress levels in just making it thru the day and hoping I did not have to come in to work during the weekend soured me to more efforts.

Ushio at least might have a larger discount factor given all moving light lamps are for the most part made and Europe and given the dollar tanked all moving light lamps have recently gone up in price. Next week at some point, I will have to sit down at the computer to figure out how many lamps I bought last year and add them to my lamp by lamp tracking of what I buy so such info will be of use in giving me a price for the next year’s expected purchase in them for the best price verses profit ratio by the supplier at Ushio if they get to be cheaper. Most of my suppliers in offering me a good price expect me to furnish specific amounts per year I will be expected to purchase. Easy with the EVC much less HPL 575w/C lamp, it’s just under a thousand a year, with the MSR 700SA, it’s more complex in me buying about 16 every other month but specific amounts? Don’t know. I have about 30 suppliers just for lamps, Ushio being only one of them distributer or manufacturer alike. $100K a year in lamp purchases is enough for various manufacturers to visit me directly but often not enough for a large enough discount factor in buying direct from them. This all as opposed to the days of buying one or two lamps per fixture type a year when prices per lamp were at times at least double in price. Now at least I as a buyer have some kind of pull with my own suppliers in having target goals in price and backing them up by saying hey, this guy is offering the lamp for this price, can you do better? When I had more time to shop around for lamps I even sent around a yearly list of pricing and expected purchases for the last three years in making them go thru a few hundred lamps and re-quote their pricing on them if they wanted to keep my business or gain more. Such pull I had but it takes a lot of effort on my part I don’t have time for anymore much less defiantly the stepping on the hurt feelings of suppliers in not being adequate to others. (These prices being dealer volume costs given on average $1K a day in purchased lamps - normal retail value of such lamps is often much higher.)

In the case of just about all halogen PAR lamps of any wattage, there is normally an inner capsule part of the lamp inside of the PAR globe. This has the same effect above in optimizing the efficiency of the lamps bulb around the filament yet still offering the reflector assembly. Also why you can touch a halogen PAR lamp but not a halogen Leko lamp. There are other styles of inner halogen capsule such as on some linear filament tube lamp fixtures. Another style is on the line of CDM lamps used in some architectural lighting fixtures and even some Lekos and PAR’s. Such lamps have ceramic instead of quartz inner glass globes. I believe on the CDM lamp, that ceramic becomes so hot it’s clear when at operating temperature, yet ceramic has distinct advantages over quartz in high heat conditions.

Further study might be in the pressure involved with heat and any gas inside of a lamp from argon or nitrogen in a incandescent to the chemical soup of metal halides inside of an expensive moving light lamp. Given an inner globe operating at extreme temperature, the pressures must be extreme once hot. As mentioned before, there is some stated concerns at least with home owner grade low voltage lamps which operate under a dimmer in that they are not getting hot enough for the iodine/bromine mixture of the halogen gas to absorb and redeposit the filament. Instead these might when active simply corrode the pinch seal. Such concerns have been stated thru some manufacturers with only few slight notes about stage and studio lamps not having this problem due no doubt to improvements in pinch seal technology such as necessary due to the MSR 700SA. Philips has P3 pinch seals, other brands have other technology and they are a good read about. One company even just uses a Purple UV paint in resisting damage. 

Stage and Studio lamps are also HRG (Heat Resisting Glass) in nature in being more expensive but shock and heat resistant above home owner grades of the glass. Stage and Studio lamps to some degree also have a certain amount of noise resistance meaning that humm you sometimes might get off some lights when near especially with a microphone will be much less with a stage and studio lamp. Given the higher quality of such lamps, expecting that such an improvement to the low voltage line to prevent damage while dimmed is possible.

In any case, the Quartz lamp globe allowed for a higher operating temperature than normal lamps such as soft lime glass in that it’s inherently stronger if more brittle as a material and due to the smaller sizes necessary to withstand the heat more efficient in heat and strength.

There is lots of notes on globes and glass. In all a lamp no matter the form of it is one big balancing scale in optimizing the desired characteristics of it. For instance, most modern Lekos use a higher output in color temperature lamp. This is in many ways due to it’s operating at an over the lamp’s design primary voltage condition. 115v instead of 120v of normal Leko lamps. This was a balance in choosing this attribute of the lamp in that while it would last a much shorter amount of time especially under an expected 118v - three volts over it’s design voltage, it would however have expanded output and color temperature due to this. Had such lamps had a xenon filler to them, much less they are working on dichroic coatings and inner reflectors for them, they would be more efficient yet.

A sample of further improvements is Silica fused to the quartz glass is an even higher temperature / wattage range improvement by 50%. On the subject of outer globe lamps, there are some projector lamps now using a liquid filled outer globe to better control cooling of the lamp much less expansion and contraction. Such liquid filled lamps either with an outer globe which requires a larger hole in the reflector - part of the reason they are not used as much for efficient equipment, or other details such as expensive rare earth - often high in electron elements once added to the lamp preform much better. Some of these elements are even slightly radioactive. KR-85 is a common trace element inside of a metal halide lamp. HES in an interview about lamps and them said that they had to apply for a special licence in stocking their over 100 radioactive lamps at a time in stock. I expect I should also given that IESTA article last year, I stock about twice as many as a minimum.

Further reading on the subject of balances between lamps and on the subject of lamp design is the free book by Osram/Sylvania:
http://ecom.mysylvania.com/sylvaniab2c/b2c/z_login.do;jsessionid=ID4001DB0.9892852556966844End go to the PDF:
Engineering Bulletin - Technology and Application - Tungsten Halogen Low Voltage Lamps Photo Optics
This book is cited in many books as a source for a lot of their and my information and it’s free to download. Should the link not work, go to the Osram website and do a websearch on any ANSI lamp such as the EVC as recommended and a specific lamp. Below it will be bulletins and sources. Click on it and you will have an excellent book on lamps beyond titles such as “Determination of the ratio fo the luminous flux of discharge lamps to the luminous flux of reference incandescent lamps” - EUR #10574. Talking about boring reading for only a few useful tips.


----------



## JahJahwarrior

wow...THAT sounds stressful!!


Just wondering, how many years have you been working in theatre/lighting?? 

I can't belive you can know that much!!


----------



## Mayhem

Ship said:


> Further reading on the subject of balances between lamps and on the subject of lamp design is the free book by Osram/Sylvania:
> http://ecom.mysylvania.com/sylvaniab2c/b2c/z_login.do;jsessionid=ID4001DB0.9892852556966844End go to the PDF:
> Engineering Bulletin - Technology and Application - Tungsten Halogen Low Voltage Lamps Photo Optics
> This book is cited in many books as a source for a lot of their and my information and it’s free to download. Should the link not work, go to the Osram website and do a websearch on any ANSI lamp such as the EVC as recommended and a specific lamp. Below it will be bulletins and sources. Click on it and you will have an excellent book on lamps beyond titles such as “Determination of the ratio fo the luminous flux of discharge lamps to the luminous flux of reference incandescent lamps” - EUR #10574. Talking about boring reading for only a few useful tips.



Ship - I am wondering what I am doing wrong? The link doesn't work and so I followed the directions that you gave.

All of the results point to this one .pdf:

http://osram.com/pdf/service_corner/LightingProgram-PO.pdf

Whilst there seems to be some interesting info in the appendix section, I cannot seem to find such a link to the document that you refer to above.

I even did a search for:

"Engineering Bulletin - Technology and Application - Tungsten Halogen Low Voltage Lamps Photo Optics" and various combinations of the contained words.

Any suggestions??


----------



## ship

My bust, it's off the Sylvania website, the Osram website is useless for other than newsletters. Funny how the Sylvania website is centered around America as it should be yet you can't get any Sylvania stage and studio lamps in America. Such Sylvania stage and studio types are only available in Europe. Instead it's Osram here for them. However your home center carries the Sylvania line often. I expect this is as opposed to in Europe where fluorescents would be Osram but Stage and Studio Sylvania. Wish the website creaters would finally merge much less get Dave to make them all linked and function in the same way.

Try looking for the CSR 700SA lamp on the GE website and getting any useful information about it. Than given it's not listed in the crap advertising data about the lamp type in the part number 15380 and see where you get in a few months when they update the website for new lamps. Such actual spec information as opposed to some sales flyer often with hopeful but not realistic info are much more of value.

In any case, I found the manual I consider of most value on the subject:

The Osram like many lamp company sites is wacky in that there is at least three of them. Unfortunately the link I have to them at work which links me direct to a search feature, at home is more useful for the product news and hard to find the search much less lamp you are looking for. Without a specific link to the Broadway line from Philips, it’s also impossible to find it off the normal website for instance.

Here is a better link, it’s part of the Sylvania catalog instead: 
http://ecom.mysylvania.com/sylvania...d=ID4001DB0.261765185897212End;sapj2ee_*=4001 or Www.sylvania.com Hit USA for a place to search. Go to Product Catalogs. Click on Search & Browse. Click on Search Catalog. Type in either product number 54057 or change the search type to order abbreviation with a EVC typed below it.

The link that should pop up is http://ecom.mysylvania.com/sylvaniab2c/b2c/z_login.do 

Click on it and you get the lamp specifications. Scroll down to Product Documents, Graphs and Images and click on it. There is the PDF file under a “Engineering Bulletin.”

Well worth the effort if hard to find. This is a free masterwork on lamps in my opinion.

You know, there is one major advantage to Windows XP, a PC over a Mac even laptop. I have a dual monitor on my computer. Makes following directions or typing while reading from so much more easy. Don't know how I ever lived without one.


----------



## Mayhem

Thanks Ship - have it now!


----------



## dvsDave

Well, I did some sleuthing, and I found a direct link!

http://dafnwebpd.sylvania.com/os_fi...ngsten Halogen Low Voltage Lamps Photo Optics


----------



## dvsDave

ship, if you need a direct link again, go to whatever page in that system you are looking for and click on a blank part of the page (not on any elements, like pictures, links, or pdf docs) Then right-click and go to properties and then completely highlight the Address/URL by clicking just ot the bare left of "http://" and move downward with the mouse till you have completely highlighted the link, then hit CTRL+C to copy the url.


----------



## Mayhem

Um Dave - your link seems to only load the header. The .pdf doesn't seem to load :?


----------



## dvsDave

Arggg... dang...


----------

