# Colleges for Lighting Design



## TechGeek

Hey everyone. I'm in my junior year of high school now and I need to start looking at colleges... I live in South New Jersey, pretty close to New York (only a hour or two train ride). 

I want to major in lighting and ideally want to attend the best school out there for this but that's not always possible so as I look for schools, can you guys and gals add some schools to the list and what they are like or your experience if you attended it.

Also what degree should I go for? 


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## SteveB

Dozens of choices,

North Carolina School of the Arts, Carnegie Mellon, California Institute for the Arts, Yale, SUNY Purchase, NYU, are the more well known that I can remember off-hand.

Then there are many more smaller with good lighting design teachers and programs, scattered across the country, University of Florida - Gainsville, Brooklyn - CUNY, NYC Tech - CUNY, Boston College, Adelphi, etc....

If you want to save money, you attend one of the "state" schools, pay full out-of-state-resident tuition for a year, establish state residency then you do your final 3 years at significantly reduced tuition. 

So you have to narrow it down to what you can afford and where in the U.S.you want to go.

Typically the programs offer a BFA in Design & Production, with a major in Lighting Design. Some of the programs will also offer an MFA.


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## gafftapegreenia

Are you absolutely 100% certain you want to pursue lighting as a career choice? Have you considered any other major? A life if production is not for the faint of heart. If there is truly nothing else you could see yourself doing, then dive in and go for it! But if you have any second thoughts, please explore your options. 

I don't mean this specifically towards you @TechGeek, but as general food-for-thought for any high schooler considering this path. Lately I've been using the phrase "if there is anything else you could see yourself doing besides theatre, do that". 


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## Footer

http://www.controlbooth.com/threads/how-important-was-your-college-degree-to-your-career-path.22893/

http://www.controlbooth.com/threads/faq-recommendations-about-college-education.21801/


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## TechGeek

I am positive I want to pursue lighting design, I already work for a rental company and a theatre and dealt with the whole nine yards already.

I have been Looking at North Carolina, that seems to be the absolute best. Two of my friends went to SUNY. 


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## Footer

TechGeek said:


> I have been Looking at North Carolina, that seems to be the absolute best. Two of my friends went to SUNY.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



Which SUNY? There is at least a dozen of them that offer a theatre program of some type.


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## JChenault

For some interesting data, you might want to go to http://www.hemsleylightingprograms.com

Every year since 1984 they have selected a student to intern in lighting in NYC. The intern page gives all of the recipients and their college. I would discount the first 5 to 10 years, but for the last 15 to 20 years this has been a competitive position.

You should also read the list of what the past interns are doing now. Some of them no longer do theatre as a profession. ( one of them is an FBI agent) IE don't be too sure that what you want to do now will be what you ends up doing with your life in 10 to 15 years. Get a diverse education.


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## SteveB

Footer said:


> Which SUNY? There is at least a dozen of them that offer a theatre program of some type.



Ahem !. EVERYBODY knows that "SUNY" in a theater school context must be "SUNY Purchase", the premier theater training school in the State of NY system.

Or at least that's that's how their alumni think of it 

(Grin).


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## BillConnerFASTC

As a SUNY Potsdam grad, not sure I agree.

On topic, I have trouble imaging an undergraduate degree is enough to get started. I got my BA, worked a year, and then went to Yale. The strong design tradition and proximity to NYC make YSD very hard to beat. I know some folks can't stand the Yale mafia but I'm thankful to be a part of it.

I'm sure some folks can and do make it without post secondary training of any kind but sure seems to be a surer path for some.

I guess it would also make a difference of the goal or segment of interest to the op - Broadway (which ithink includes the regionals), video, concert, architectural, or other.


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## SteveB

BillConnerASTC said:


> As a SUNY Potsdam grad, not sure I agree.
> 
> On topic, I have trouble imaging an undergraduate degree is enough to get started. I got my BA, worked a year, and then went to Yale. The strong design tradition and proximity to NYC make YSD very hard to beat. I know some folks can't stand the Yale mafia but I'm thankful to be a part of it.
> 
> I'm sure some folks can and do make it without post secondary training of any kind but sure seems to be a surer path for some.
> 
> I guess it would also make a difference of the goal or segment of interest to the op - Broadway (which ithink includes the regionals), video, concert, architectural, or other.



Bill, my post was meant to be sarcastic.


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## BillConnerFASTC

SteveB said:


> Bill, my post was meant to be sarcastic.


So was mine. Do we have to use ?


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## DasCarpenter

You said you're in Jersey? Maybe take a look at Montclair. Didn't go myself but I have friends who did, they've said its good for what they're looking for and the proximity to NYC is great for them.


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## Footer

BillConnerASTC said:


> As a SUNY Potsdam grad, not sure I agree.
> 
> On topic, I have trouble imaging an undergraduate degree is enough to get started. I got my BA, worked a year, and then went to Yale. The strong design tradition and proximity to NYC make YSD very hard to beat. I know some folks can't stand the Yale mafia but I'm thankful to be a part of it.
> 
> I'm sure some folks can and do make it without post secondary training of any kind but sure seems to be a surer path for some.
> 
> I guess it would also make a difference of the goal or segment of interest to the op - Broadway (which ithink includes the regionals), video, concert, architectural, or other.




With the current cost of schools anyone who ever wants to be debt free won't be able to take this path. The only feasible model anymore is to get just enough schooling to get in the door and go from there.... Or have rich parents or a rich dead relative that liked you... The idea that everyone needs an MFA needs to die if we want this industry to continue. 

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## BillConnerFASTC

Footer said:


> With the current cost of schools anyone who ever wants to be debt free won't be able to take this path. The only feasible model anymore is to get just enough schooling to get in the door and go from there.... Or have rich parents or a rich dead relative that liked you... The idea that everyone needs an MFA needs to die if we want this industry to continue.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


Perhaps the growth in schools offering MFAs from the 60's for several decades was not warranted but I believe for some it is still the best path.


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## TechGeek

Footer said:


> Which SUNY? There is at least a dozen of them that offer a theatre program of some type.


Sorry for the long time since I've been on here. I have been doing way to much to fit on to my plate, but I guess it happens.

The both went to SUNY Plattsburg.


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## TechGeek

DasCarpenter said:


> You said you're in Jersey? Maybe take a look at Montclair. Didn't go myself but I have friends who did, they've said its good for what they're looking for and the proximity to NYC is great for them.


Thank you for this info. I will definitely look at Montclair too!


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## TechGeek

I just emailed UNCSA a day or two ago to setup my visit to look at their campus and program during my spring break. Can't wait to hear back from them. They are looking like my best option based off of their connections with various lighting and production companies, including Cirque du Soleil and Varilite. 

If I were to be admitted to UNCSA it is also from what I looked at compared to other colleges to also be the cheapest while being in the top coming in at around 32k-35k a year.


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## chawalang

!WOW! 35K X4 = $140,000, that is A LOT of money. 

Thats is tuition alone?
Is room and board included?

Regardless that is massive debt to burden yourself with once you graduate. 
Are they going to hook you up with some money?
I hope your parents are loaded ( I don't mean to sound rude saying that).
To my knowledge UNCSA does not give much money out to any one.

My two cents do not go there, any place that will put you in that much debt once your done at 22 ( if you finish in 4 years) I do not care how prestigious the name is, it is not worth it. Go somewhere that won't put you into massive debt, with student loan interest rates you will never pay that off.

Another part of my two cents but you will also have a stigma attached to you once you graduate. UNCSA is also known as North Carolina School of the Attitudes due to the entitlement their grades tend to have. I have worked with many colleagues in various parts of the industry who refuse to hire them based on that. They do know their stuff, all the ones I have met are sharp but I have only met two who did not have massive entitlement.

Again these are just my thoughts.

Have you looked at UNLV out in Vegas at all, they have a really good up and coming program and it is located in an entertainment Mecca.

Also look at non traditional education avenues.

www.fullsail.edu

Look at their show production program, Full Sail has had some bad rep in the industry but the organization has come a long way in the past ten years. You can get you associates in show production done in a year. It is still pricey but way less than what you wrote for UNCSA. It is worth checking out.

http://stagecraftinstitute.com

The stage Craft Institute of Las Vegas is definitely worth looking into. It is a 4 month program and you learn from industry leads, I have worked with people who teach there.

Both of these options have a lot of networking opportunities as well, they hold job fairs for the students once done from everything ranging to tours, install shows, av companies, production houses etc.


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## BillConnerFASTC

Stay close to NYC, find a state school with a theater major and at least 3 or 4 faculty/staff, and get a liberal arts degree while spending most of your time in the theater and working as many shows as possible. Volunteer to be tech host to outside groups. Try to find some experience in NYC evenings, weekends, vacations; and apply to larger summer theater s for work. Also, see as many shows as possible. Try to get out in less than four years and with as little debt as possible.

Then - if you still want to go into lighting - look for a professional training program for lighting design, like Yale or CM or NYU or a few others. You should be able to get enough aid after first year to keep debt under control.

If you could get some experience in a decent paying job between under graduate and professional training, which might help establish independence from parents for financial aid, consider that.

I will add that in counter to chaw... I have not heard all that good of respect for either full sail or stage craft, and I know and have worked with and like several UNCSA grads. But if you follow above path or similar, you'll know for yourself and not have to ask.

God luck. Its not an easy business or one that any credential can guarantee sucess, but I like it.


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## TechGeek

chawalang said:


> !WOW! 35K X4 = $140,000, that is A LOT of money.
> 
> Thats is tuition alone?
> Is room and board included?


That's including a meal plan and dorm. 

My mom isn't all to worried, she's got some Union friends who think I'm going to be getting quite a bit of scholarship money with the talent I have for my age... However when admission time comes I'll be 1 in 1500+ kids a applying for the same major. 

My mom is saying that the 35k isn't too bad and other are saying that that is nothing compared to other schools. Her boyfriends sons tuition is almost 80k a year! So this is definitely nothing. 


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## np18358

I have been looking into UNCSA, and after extensive conversation with their admission office on the phone, they told me that most students pay 52,500$ (including room, board, and meals) for the first year, then after getting state residency, pay an instate rate of 28,000$ (including room, board, and meals). Total of 136,500$. I also believe that they only give need-based scholarships, not merit-based, although I can't say that for sure. I do have to agree with Chawalang in saying that all three of the grads I know are very entitled, and as a result, two of the get very little work. The other one is an Assistant to Natasha Katz, so is guess it really is all what you make of it. I do have to say that I toured there, and I personally did not like the location, nor the facilities. Although it is also quite pricey, I would highly recommend looking at CMU. I have found it to be a really impressive school. Also look at SUNY Purchase I have been looking at both of them extensively for Lighting Design, and I think they both have a lot to offer. SUNY Purchase is slightly cheaper for Out of State Tuition, but you would obviously establish residency, and then pay the significantly reduced rate. Also the close proximity to NYC is great. Another school that doesn't get a lot of notice, but two people from my school have gone there/are going there and loved it is Wagner in New York. BU is a great school as well. I have a friend who's sister goes there for Tech Direction, and she was exposed to lighting and loves it, and they are very flexible with her doing both Tech Direction and Lighting. Kinda far across the country for you, but USC has a good tech theatre program as well.


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## Footer

TechGeek said:


> That's including a meal plan and dorm.
> 
> My mom isn't all to worried, she's got some Union friends who think I'm going to be getting quite a bit of scholarship money with the talent I have for my age... However when admission time comes I'll be 1 in 1500+ kids a applying for the same major.
> 
> My mom is saying that the 35k isn't too bad and other are saying that that is nothing compared to other schools. Her boyfriends sons tuition is almost 80k a year! So this is definitely nothing.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Hopefully your mom will ensure then you don't graduate with more debt then you can afford. I can't stress this enough, be certain you don't graduate with more debt then you can afford. I put that at about 30,000 total. 300 bucks a month for 10 years. Be involved in these conversations. Don't sign anything without figuring out what it is. If loans are the only way consider not going to school at all. I have a feeling her boyfriend's son school is not giving him in education that in the best of situations will make 30k out of school. Be proactive about this. Really. Know what you are getting yourself into. Don't allow other people to stick you with debt you won't be able to pay later.


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## Footer

np18358 said:


> ...then after getting state residency, pay an instate rate of 28,000$ (including room, board, and meals). Total of 136,500$..... SUNY Purchase is slightly cheaper for Out of State Tuition, but you would obviously establish residency, and then pay the significantly reduced rate....


As a NYS taxpayer and someone who has sat through and produced 4 SUNY state of the university addresses I think your really wrong on this. 

SUNY knows what it is doing. Unless you parents want to take you to court and have you financially and physically cut off from them then your pretty much not going to qualify. http://www.suny.edu/sunypp/documents.cfm?doc_id=402

Good luck. I hope for my taxes sake you are not successful.


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## derekleffew

To throw another into the mix, Ithaca College graduates @JohnHuntington, @icewolf08, and @rochem speak highly of the school and seem to have done fairly well for themselves. Now whether they'd think it was worth ~$55K per year, or if an equivalent but more economical school exists, is a question I would pose to them.

@TechGeek, assuming you're an NJ resident, Rutgers has a good reputation and F. Mitchell Dana is a wonderful designer and teacher. Likewise with Princeton, if they offer similar in-state discount/financial aid.

And I'll second the "attitude" issue of NCSA, although the individual I encountered also attended NYU, so the "entitlement" was doubly compounded.


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## gafftapegreenia

Just about everyone I meet with a BFA or MFA seems to have "attitude" or "entitlement". But hey, I have a BA from a small liberal arts program, so I'm biased, or maybe it's just symptomatic of my generation, idk. I will wager, however, that If you are hard working and open to constructive criticism, that can easily outshine the stigma of whatever big name school you choose. 


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## DuckJordan

Tech I urge you to think about how much you'll actually make. $135k to pay back is $1125 per month with no interest over 10 years. Can your degree get you a job that earns double that if not more per month. Consider a fairly base rate of 12% you'll be roughly making $1260 with interest per month. That is on top of any living expenses. Rent here for a small one bedroom (and cost of living is actually fairly low in the middle of the country) is $750/month Estimate about $250 in groceries per month. Now add insurance (car, health, anything else) at $300/month now add gas for commuting estimate $150/month in fuel. Throw an extra $200 for just case scenarios. Here's your costs:
-1260
-750
-250
-300
-150
-200

thats $2910/month that's a hell of a lot of money. I estimate working as a union hand. Who easily gets an average of 40/hrs per week that I make roughly $2k a month. Thats putting me at -$900 per month. 

Best way to prepare finances for college is to assume you won't get the job you want, Likely you'll work for 4 years of your life after school working as a freelance hand, or a house hand. Also assume you wont get any scholarships. 
In your area can you afford that kind of a degree?


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## BillConnerFASTC

Duck - do you think tech was paying for all this?


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## icewolf08

derekleffew said:


> To throw another into the mix, Ithaca College graduates @JohnHuntington, @icewolf08, and @rochem speak highly of the school and seem to have done fairly well for themselves. Now whether they'd think it was worth ~$55K per year, or if an equivalent but more economical school exists, is a question I would pose to them.


I would have to say yes, I think that the duration that I got was worth it. I was able to secure a job starting just days after graduation, followed shortly thereafter by the job I have had for the past 9 years. I certainly don't regret my decision, my loans are paid off, I even own a house. I do wish I had time to own a dog...

I do have a bunch of student employees from some of the local colleges. It is very easy to tell which students come from different programs based on what they know and think they know. I find that the schools with programs that focus on working knowledge versus prepping students for grad school turn our far more useful technicians and designers.


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## Cadmium6855

UNCSA's program is rigorous, unique and not for everybody. That being said, if its the right place for you you'll know. No Program is perfect, you just need to find the one that fits you best. Its your education, no one elses.... You get to decide the path you want to take and weather the cost is worth it to you.


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## DuckJordan

Bill, whenever I talk to a student about college plans I make it clear that relying on anyone else for your college education is not the safest thing to do. So when I approach the situation I tell them as if they are receiving no financial help from anyone. Thats how I ended up through college. Which is also why after a year of me spending more money on learning than actually learning I decided to take a different path to the same goal. Do I recommend getting a degree? Absolutely! However I didn't get to where I am with one. I'm not an awesome designer or a touring tech, but I live a fairly comfortable life doing freelance work in a market really not able to support more than a few full time techs.


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## gafftapegreenia

I know I have many friends that used their theatre major as a way to figure out that they did NOT want to do theatre as a career and are now in grad school for completely different fields, or currently apply their production skill and temperament in non theatrical jobs. 


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## Footer

BillConnerASTC said:


> Duck - do you think tech was paying for all this?



I also assume the same...

Many parents do not save enough to send their kids to college. When they get their financial aid package back most parents just look at the bottom line, see if they can make the payments, and go. Financial aid packages also include loans... and more and more often most of the financial aid package are loans instead of grants and scholarships that don't have to be paid back. Schools and parents don't care because they are not getting stuck with the bill. That is why I am saying be very involved in this process. Really look at what you WILL be paying, what your parents are paying, and what the school is paying. Also, know that as you go through school the amount of money you can receive in loans increases.... so be vigilant even then. Have a real conversation with your parents about what they can pay, what they expect you can pay, and what you can realistically afford after graduation. Going to college now is very different then what it was 25 years ago.


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## BillConnerFASTC

Footer said:


> I also assume the same...
> 
> Many parents do not save enough to send their kids to college. When they get their financial aid package back most parents just look at the bottom line, see if they can make the payments, and go. Financial aid packages also include loans... and more and more often most of the financial aid package are loans instead of grants and scholarships that don't have to be paid back. Schools and parents don't care because they are not getting stuck with the bill. That is why I am saying be very involved in this process. Really look at what you WILL be paying, what your parents are paying, and what the school is paying. Also, know that as you go through school the amount of money you can receive in loans increases.... so be vigilant even then. Have a real conversation with your parents about what they can pay, what they expect you can pay, and what you can realistically afford after graduation. Going to college now is very different then what it was 25 years ago.



or 45 years ago. BA in 3 years and two summers - $7500 - all in - no loans - all money I earned - mostly at minimum wage - $1.85/hr. But then I went to grad school and finished after 4 years with what seemed like the horrendous sum of about $10,000 in loans - at 3% fixed. Should of kept it but paid off in 2 years. Yes, different - don't get stuck with a lot of debt - ever. Knowing what to expect in terms of indebtedness is definitely good advice.


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## TechGeek

derekleffew said:


> To throw another into the mix, Ithaca College graduates @JohnHuntington, @icewolf08, and @rochem speak highly of the school and seem to have done fairly well for themselves. Now whether they'd think it was worth ~$55K per year, or if an equivalent but more economical school exists, is a question I would pose to them.
> 
> @TechGeek, assuming you're an NJ resident, Rutgers has a good reputation and F. Mitchell Dana is a wonderful designer and teacher. Likewise with Princeton, if they offer similar in-state discount/financial aid.
> 
> And I'll second the "attitude" issue of NCSA, although the individual I encountered also attended NYU, so the "entitlement" was doubly compounded.



Wow, I'll have to look into Ithaca! I haven't come across it in my search, however I think $55k a year might be a bit steep to my mom.

I am a South NJ resident... My friend went to Rowan which I was looking at, and Rutgers I didn't know offered Theatrical courses but I live very close to the Camden campus maybe 30min with traffic.

What's up everyone working with people from UNCSA and getting tude? Are you meaning that they feel above you because they went there?


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## TechGeek

DuckJordan said:


> Tech I urge you to think about how much you'll actually make. $135k to pay back is $1125 per month with no interest over 10 years. Can your degree get you a job that earns double that if not more per month. Consider a fairly base rate of 12% you'll be roughly making $1260 with interest per month. That is on top of any living expenses. Rent here for a small one bedroom (and cost of living is actually fairly low in the middle of the country) is $750/month Estimate about $250 in groceries per month. Now add insurance (car, health, anything else) at $300/month now add gas for commuting estimate $150/month in fuel. Throw an extra $200 for just case scenarios. Here's your costs:
> -1260
> -750
> -250
> -300
> -150
> -200
> 
> thats $2910/month that's a hell of a lot of money. I estimate working as a union hand. Who easily gets an average of 40/hrs per week that I make roughly $2k a month. Thats putting me at -$900 per month.
> 
> Best way to prepare finances for college is to assume you won't get the job you want, Likely you'll work for 4 years of your life after school working as a freelance hand, or a house hand. Also assume you wont get any scholarships.
> In your area can you afford that kind of a degree?




So far I am not really paying anything for college, mostly parent's. 

After college I'll have a place to stay in Ocean City, NJ at our secondary/shore house. I'll also have a job available to me during and after college with the theatre I've been working for in Ocean City managing the systems which pays well at $10 an hour. I'll also still have a spot with the rental company I work for as well which pays based on what your doing.

So my after college life won't be too bad, only having car insurance, heath insurance, water bill(only Sept-June), gas bill(only Sept-June), electric bill (only during Sept-June), Groceries, and gas for my car.


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## TechGeek

Footer said:


> I also assume the same...
> 
> Many parents do not save enough to send their kids to college. When they get their financial aid package back most parents just look at the bottom line, see if they can make the payments, and go. Financial aid packages also include loans... and more and more often most of the financial aid package are loans instead of grants and scholarships that don't have to be paid back. Schools and parents don't care because they are not getting stuck with the bill. That is why I am saying be very involved in this process. Really look at what you WILL be paying, what your parents are paying, and what the school is paying. Also, know that as you go through school the amount of money you can receive in loans increases.... so be vigilant even then. Have a real conversation with your parents about what they can pay, what they expect you can pay, and what you can realistically afford after graduation. Going to college now is very different then what it was 25 years ago.



We plan on sitting down in the next month and going over all the costs. I know I am paying for my books which won't be too bad.


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## TechGeek

gafftapegreenia said:


> I know I have many friends that used their theatre major as a way to figure out that they did NOT want to do theatre as a career and are now in grad school for completely different fields, or currently apply their production skill and temperament in non theatrical jobs.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - now Free


I really believe I am going to stick with lighting. I have and still am investing a lot of money into it. I really enjoy it and you meet interesting people. It teaches you a lot even when you think you already knew it all.


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## Footer

TechGeek said:


> So far I am not really paying anything for college, mostly parent's.
> 
> After college I'll have a place to stay in Ocean City, NJ at our secondary/shore house. I'll also have a job available to me during and after college with the theatre I've been working for in Ocean City managing the systems which pays well at $10 an hour. I'll also still have a spot with the rental company I work for as well which pays based on what your doing.
> 
> So my after college life won't be too bad, only having car insurance, heath insurance, water bill(only Sept-June), gas bill(only Sept-June), electric bill (only during Sept-June), Groceries, and gas for my car.



You possibly won the parent lottery. Still watch out for those loans sneaking in. 

What do you actually want to do post graduation? Do you want to work for a rental shop or a small theatre? Ocean city is not really going to be the happening place in the coming years. Four years from now Upstate NY and NYC will have casino gambling in full swing which is going to smash Atlantic City... so you might have a place to stay there but there might not be as much work there as there is now.


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## TechGeek

Footer said:


> You possibly won the parent lottery. Still watch out for those loans sneaking in.
> 
> What do you actually want to do post graduation? Do you want to work for a rental shop or a small theatre? Ocean city is not really going to be the happening place in the coming years. Four years from now Upstate NY and NYC will have casino gambling in full swing which is going to smash Atlantic City... so you might have a place to stay there but there might not be as much work there as there is now.


Haha, ya I hope so! Loans are something that we are both worried about but are hoping to not need to take out large loans.

Post graduation I would enjoy working as a lighting designer or even lighting technician for a large rental company like 4wall and PRG who do tons of production work. If not working for a small theatre isn't that bad, I could be getting benefits from them if I was 18, such as health care. 

I was offered a small gig at 14 to run a series of one acts for an event called 48 NYC where I'd be doing lighting for one acts over two days. I hate that I had to pass it up.. The nice thing is that I'm not that far from NYC, only a hour and a half train ride or so which costs around $12 bucks so I can do work in NY pretty easily.

Atlantic City is already done, not many casino's left.. There are a couple casino's left that after college wouldn't be bad to apply to work in their theaters.


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## Footer

TechGeek said:


> Post graduation I would enjoy working as a lighting designer or even lighting technician for a large rental company like 4wall and PRG who do tons of production work. If not working for a small theatre isn't that bad, I could be getting benefits from them if I was 18, such as health care.



Those are two very different things. PRG won't give a rats butt about your degree. Being an LD a degree gets you your first assistanship... and usually a masters is required. 

IF you have to take out loans, you should seriously think about not going to school. If you already have an in that might actually be a halfway decent chance of making it without the debt.


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## TechGeek

Footer said:


> Those are two very different things. PRG won't give a rats butt about your degree. Being an LD a degree gets you your first assistanship... and usually a masters is required.
> 
> IF you have to take out loans, you should seriously think about not going to school. If you already have an in that might actually be a halfway decent chance of making it without the debt.



Yeah, I figured PRG would be a tough one...


I originally didn't plan to go to get a degree on lighting just because a lot of people I have talked to say its useless and usually people look more at your work, which I do believe is pretty true. Just because you have a degree doesn't mean your lighting is amazing.

My boss at the rental shop dropped out during his first year because of how expensive it was getting and then he realized how much in loans he'd be paying off for four years of college... He is still paying off loans from 2 years ago.


I totally wouldn't be stressing college so much if my mom wasn't forcing me to go to college, and in my opinion if I am going to have to spend my money as well, then I'm going somewhere worth it but somewhere that's not going to have my mom and I in debt from loans.


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## chawalang

I really have to agree with Footer on this in every way. I am very pro education but again if I was your parent I would not let you go somewhere that cost you 55k a year. Even if I was paying for it.

There are people who come out of school with with $140,000 + in student loans, they are called Medical Doctors, they should not be called stagehands.

I urge you to look into other universities and alternative education options like I had mentioned before. This industry has changed a lot and a 4 year degree isn't the only way to get your education on. 

I would also stress if you go the undergrad route, DOUBLE MAJOR, get a double major is business, education, electrical engineering, something you can use when your body gives out and you can't smash in a show. This industry really wears on the human body, your a youngster and all the young stage hands I have worked with feel invincible working on calls with a monster energy drink in one hand and a cigarette in the other but it will happen if you keep going at it, your body will give out. By 30 you will feel it even if you put every effort in to work without straining your body and take every safety precaution including staying away from cigarettes and energy drinks.


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## Footer

TechGeek said:


> I totally wouldn't be stressing college so much if my mom wasn't forcing me to go to college, and in my opinion if I am going to have to spend* my money as well*, then I'm going somewhere worth it but somewhere that's not going to have my mom and I in debt from loans.



IF your mom is going to pay for school completely and she wants you to do it... go for it. Enjoy it. Have fun. Learn a lot. Thank your lucky stars. If your mom wants you to go to school AND you are going to get stuck with student loans more then about 15-20k the tell her to take a hike. This is your first time to do that in your adult life. It won't be your last. My mom REALLY wants me to have a kid. I don't want one and can't afford one so I don't have one. I didn't look at my student loans when I was in school. I left with about 20k and just got them paid off. My wife did not have a clue either. She also ended up with what she though was a scholarship from her church that turned out to be a loan. Really watch this stuff. 

Otherwise, find out what your mother is willing to pay. It kind of concerns me the "you'll be in charge of books thing". Text books for theatre majors are REALLY cheap. After sophomore year I just stopped buying them with the exception of theatre history. If she is not willing to pay for books that really puts up a red flag. Don't make your parents do anything you don't want to do or that will have lasting affects on your life. Talk to her, figure out how much you have to work with, and start your search there. Apply everywhere you want. Do FASFA. Then, sit down after you have letters from the schools that want you and what they are offering in aid and figure out what you can afford. I'm not anti education, I'm anti more debt then you can pay off. 

Right now I'm just starting the house hunt. Scraping together a down payment is not easy... kind of wish I could have started saving at 22 instead of now.


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## josh88

I wouldn't count on a smaller theatre giving you benefits if you ended up at one. Maybe you'll get lucky but lots of places just can't. 

Another idea is if you're being forced into college, or rather you wouldn't stress but mom wants it to happen, maybe look for a degree outside of theatre. I usually tell people unless you're sure you won't be happy doing anything else, get a different degree because you can always come back to theatre. You could keep freelancing or doing side work while getting a degree that could help pay bills or make you more marketable. Unless you're 100% determined you have to major in theatre.


Via tapatalk


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## Kurt

Well, I may not be much help but I'm attending Colorado Mesa University for lighting design

I live in-state but it's somewhat irrelevant because I'm on a big fat academic scholarship. On the whole it isn't a bad school simply on the basis of price.

On the other hand, the technical theatre program isn't fantastic. We have about 15 students in our entire major, which gives one lots of opportunity to work and design but it also means classes get cancelled fairly frequently and we have a very small staff of professors.

So, if you're willing to really work for yourself to ensure you learn what you need to know you can do alright here, and if everything works out I'm going to get out with a major, a minor, and a welding certificate and not a single student loan. 

So if you've got a decent ACT score and good grades I say keep the option on the table. The other DT majors and myself love new technicians because it means our program growing and classes not getting cancelled.

So, money-wise I'm just paying room and board (not cheap, but move off campus sophomore year and you're golden) plus books and whatever I need for classes. Doesn't get much better than that for a degree.


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## ruinexplorer

Such a small world. I received an Associates in Theater from Mesa State College (now Colorado Mesa University). I moved to Arizona to get my degree in archaeology (really doesn't pay the bills) and then ended up with a career as a stagehand. Don't discredit small schools. The piece of paper at the end rarely matters who signed it, just that the right letters are on it. The biggest challenge is getting real world experience (summer internships). 

My success came from hard work, not my college education (though some employers required a BA, so that helped I guess). However, by going to the larger state university, I had more opportunities (being in the city) to work with more people. So, if you are going to school in a less populated city, consider making a move right out of school. If you have friends or relatives in a larger metro area, you could maybe bunk with them while finding work. You may also make connections while working summer stock or internships that could help you in a move.


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## robartsd

Footer said:


> After sophomore year I just stopped buying them with the exception of theatre history.


 
It took me a few terms of wasting money on books before my rule became "never buy a new textbook until the day you are going to actually use it". I did sometimes purchase used textbooks in advance that I was fairly certain I was going to need - school bookstores seem to be very risk adverse and only purchase used books that they know they will sell, but keep a ample supply of new books because the textbook publishers are willing to accept returns of unsold new books. Sometimes the professor doesn't fill out the form in a timely manner or the course that needs the book won't be offered next term, so the bookstore doesen't buy the used books back from the students (or offers them just what the bookstore can get reselling it wholesale). Textbook publishers also love to come out with new edditions of the same book which will cause the bookstore not to purchase the old eddition used (unless the professor is smart enought to specifically list the old eddition as acceptable when filling out the bookstore's forms) - books with problem sets (math, physics, engineering, ect.) are the worst because the new eddition is guarenteed to have a different set of problems and the teachers often assign textbook problems as homework.

Sometimes textbooks are availble in the school's library (usually limited to use in the library for an hour or two at a time) - if you don't need the book for much this can save you money. You can a site like http://screwthebookstores.com/ to cut out the bookstore's markup on used books (bookstores often buy back books for less than 50% of the retail price for the new book then sell used books for about 75% of the new book price - and sometimes the student selling the book can give you tips on being successful in the course).


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## Footer

robartsd said:


> It took me a few terms of wasting money on books before my rule became "never buy a new textbook until the day you are going to actually use it". I did sometimes purchase used textbooks in advance that I was fairly certain I was going to need - school bookstores seem to be very risk adverse and only purchase used books that they know they will sell, but keep a ample supply of new books because the textbook publishers are willing to accept returns of unsold new books. Sometimes the professor doesn't fill out the form in a timely manner or the course that needs the book won't be offered next term, so the bookstore doesen't buy the used books back from the students (or offers them just what the bookstore can get reselling it wholesale). Textbook publishers also love to come out with new edditions of the same book which will cause the bookstore not to purchase the old eddition used (unless the professor is smart enought to specifically list the old eddition as acceptable when filling out the bookstore's forms) - books with problem sets (math, physics, engineering, ect.) are the worst because the new eddition is guarenteed to have a different set of problems and the teachers often assign textbook problems as homework.
> 
> Sometimes textbooks are availble in the school's library (usually limited to use in the library for an hour or two at a time) - if you don't need the book for much this can save you money. You can a site like http://screwthebookstores.com/ to cut out the bookstore's markup on used books (bookstores often buy back books for less than 50% of the retail price for the new book then sell used books for about 75% of the new book price - and sometimes the student selling the book can give you tips on being successful in the course).



And with that too many of the text books you will need to get in theatre classes are literature. I was the king of inter-library loaning that stuff for the whole semester if needed. Your freshman year everyone marches to the book store and buys everything. After that, you'll never do it again.


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## robartsd

Footer said:


> And with that too many of the text books you will need to get in theatre classes are literature. I was the king of inter-library loaning that stuff for the whole semester if needed. Your freshman year everyone marches to the book store and buys everything. After that, you'll never do it again.


Yes, literature is often easy to find at libraries (be sure to check the public library as well as your school's) and used book stores. I see no reason to pay school bookstore prices for any literature. If your literature reading is in some textbook publisher's "anthology" you can probably find the individual works on their own or in smaller collections at libraries to save not only money but the hassle of carring arround that large tome. If the teacher assigns pages, look up the passages in the "required" book (annother student's, a library reserve copy, or even at the bookstore) so you know that you're reading the right section in the volume you've obtained.


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## TechGeek

Well here's the good news. My mom and I talked a bit earlier about expenses for college and she said that shes paying for EVERYTHING. Yes you read correctly, EVERYTHING, tuition, room, meal plan, and books.

I'm not so worried about the books, I looked at UNCSA's book a few months ago and almost all of the classes use the same text book the whole 4 years because the text books are like 4 books in one that your buying... priced out for all 4 years of books it came to almost 2k.


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## LavaASU

TechGeek said:


> Well here's the good news. My mom and I talked a bit earlier about expenses for college and she said that shes paying for EVERYTHING. Yes you read correctly, EVERYTHING, tuition, room, meal plan, and books.
> 
> I'm not so worried about the books, I looked at UNCSA's book a few months ago and almost all of the classes use the same text book the whole 4 years because the text books are like 4 books in one that your buying... priced out for all 4 years of books it came to almost 2k.


Most classes I either didn't buy the book, copied the pages I needed, bought a old edition for $5 off amazon, bought the international edition off ebay or some combination thereof. Generally for the $200+ books, I'd buy the $5 old edition off amazon and if I had to buy the new edition later on oh well on the $5. I did that several times and only had to buy the new one once so that gamble paid off at my school. For classes like math and science, definately look at international editions. Most aren't printed on as nice paper and may not be in color, but they are paperback (big bonus to me on carrying around) but they're usually 50% or less the cost of buying the used book. I picked up international editions of $200 text books for $30. Theres also an "india" version of some text books which is a step below the international ones you can find on ebay. Its black and white and printed on cheap paper. If you are really penny pinching look for that.


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## DuckJordan

Most math classes are doing an online homework thing anyway so the text book isn't nearly as important as it used to be. Now you have to buy a license to the website for $30 but no longer are the giant text books needed. At least that's the way it was 4 years ago.


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## BillConnerFASTC

"My mom and I talked a bit earlier about expenses for college and she said that shes paying for EVERYTHING."

"If you are really penny pinching look for that."

With all due respect, certainly the non sequitur of the day.


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