# Access to rigging



## BillConnerFASTC (Jul 25, 2018)

I've done a lot of 50' stages with underhung rigging but all new build in last 10-15 years which all include a means to get to the rigging over the stage. At 50', I prefer catwalks, as illustrated in this article: http://www.lightingandsoundamerica.com/mailing/PLASAProtocol/PWinter14_StageHeight.pdf
The 22" wide catwalks 8' on center typically allow three shell ceiling panels and the 4th electric to store under then with a high trim in the 35-40' range, while the rest of the rigging has a high trim in the 44'-45' range - enough for a lot of rental drops and to fully fly curtains. With a trip up a stair, maybe some ladder, you are within arms reach of every part of the rigging. I put a high value on that.

Now I'm being asked (by the architect for budget) to forego the catwalks, so rigging is hanging there 50' in the air with no easy way to inspect and service it. I'd estimate those typically 4 catwalks at $40,000-50,000 in what is probably a $10-12m project. Just for perspective, I'm thinking about walking away from a project that represents a fourth or fifth of my income for a year.

I just wonder if I value this access to rigging too highly, and should say sure, but plan on renting a big scissor lift once a year for annual inspection plus whenever service is needed between. (Ofcourse they won't if like most schools, and it will never be inspected. That is what happens.)

Please share your thoughts and comments, with my thanks in advance.


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## coldnorth57 (Jul 25, 2018)

I agree that rigging need to have proper access. And I realy think that the architect is asking this to be cut from the budget , he has no idea or willingnes to understand the many problems he will be causing in the future. mho


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## JJBerman (Jul 25, 2018)

Well, I will say that the high school I work at doesn't have those catwalks and in the 8 years I've worked there, we do our best to "inspect" the rigging that can be seen from the ground/lock rail/arbor/loading bridge on an annual basis.
The theatre was finished in 2003 and hasn't had a full top to bottom inspection since installation.

We got funding from USITT's Rigging Safety Initiative and planned to rent a large lift so the company doing the inspection could reach the entire system. However 3 weeks before the scheduled inspection dates the company wanted to pull out. 
Through complaining and hassling the company came in for an afternoon and "looked" at everything they could see from the stage and loading bridge. The company provided a "detailed" inspection report and that was it. This was in 2015.

Since this "Inpsection" from the company, we had a curtain fall off the pipe(supposedly kids were holding onto the curtain when it was being pulled out) which got a lift line stuck in a mule pulley.
This was fixed by facilities staff and never talked about again.
We have also have a new theatre manager who is up to his eyes in everything needs TLC or replacement and one of the smallest budgets known to man to do it in. He is just getting his feet wet in informing his superiors about all the issues so that he can get more people behind him in fixing everything.

If we had catwalks that could help in inspecting the rigging, I know it would be much easier to perform annual checks and to diagnose issues before they become bad. However we are stuck in the if it aint broke don't fix it and there isn't money set aside to inspect the system as it is right now. Which is really funny as there is plenty of money to inspect the basket ball hoops(weekly/monthly/annually) and ropes courses(monthly/annually) in all the district schools but none for the theatre.


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## Stan Longhofer (Jul 25, 2018)

I'm assuming that this is part of a larger bid package and not a design-build contract, so the architect is trying to make sure they can be the low bid. Unfortunately, the people making the decisions "don't know what they don't know." Often the low bid is not the least expensive in the long run. 

As an end user that works with our school administrators to help them understand why certain expenses are important, I'd value receiving TWO bids. One without the catwalks and one with. But each of them should also include an estimated annual cost of maintenance (and the reasons this maintenance is essential) so that they can make an informed decision.

One of my big pet peeves is architects that make design decisions without ever consulting with someone who uses the space on a daily basis. Old halogen house lights with no way to easily replace the lamps is one example. In our high school theater (built just 11 years ago) there were numerous others, including clouds that block access to the first catwalk lighting pipe and sprinkler system pipes that were installed _between _the second catwalk and the lighting pipe.


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## MNicolai (Jul 25, 2018)

I would estimate the cost of those catwalks to be higher than $50k. I can never get a clear answer when my projects go to VE because everyone's playing their own numbers games, but usually there's additional structures, ladder/stair access/work lighting/etc. that fold into those costs with the extra floor space. Also, steel tariffs.

I think you've keyed in on the main points. The systems simply won't be serviced. Excuses will vary from "it's not a pressing enough need" to "it costs too much" or "that size of scissor lift won't fit through the doors or will damage the stage floor."

From the perspective of system longevity, on any motorized hoists I suspect routine service means you can extend the lifetime of your hoists by 5-10 years. Some minor work here and there as-needed can postpone a major overhaul. If no service or inspections are done, you can just about guarantee the next time someone gets up to that rigging will be for maintenance that necessitates a more extensive scope of repair/overhaul -- the cost of which itself will be higher because of the needed lift.

Looking at it from a technology perspective, there will only be more and more audio, video, and lighting equipment used in these spaces. Having connectivity and cabling in high accessible spaces adds a significant degree of flexibility. Not that most of this cannot be supported from ground level locations but you end up with spaghetti strung all over the place.

One of the hidden benefits is that having walkable access available during construction can help the project be completed faster with better CA, and with fewer labor costs. Sometimes pulling that walkable access out means somewhere else someone has to jack up their on-site installation fees, whether that's riggers, electrical, fire protection, mechanical, or whomever else. I have a few catwalk access projects happening right now where everyone on-site was/is eager for the day the catwalks show up. Then they only need 2-3 scissor lifts in the room instead of 6-8. If you have a CM on board already, might want to ping them and see if they can off-the-cuff throw a PITA factor at how elimination of the catwalks impacts their construction effort.


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## StradivariusBone (Jul 25, 2018)

JJBerman said:


> Which is really funny as there is plenty of money to inspect the basket ball hoops(weekly/monthly/annually) and ropes courses(monthly/annually) in all the district schools but none for the theatre.


We use that argument a bit. In my experience, it's less that there's no money (there's really not money for all the other stuff either), but the people in charge of doing the inspecting simply understand those aspects of their job better. The ones I've encountered they are very leery of auditoriums as they seem like weird almost-gyms that have a lot of moving parts and strange children that frequent. I try to be an ambassador in this situations, point out the similarities with what we do.


To answer your question, Bill, I speak from a standpoint of a facility manager in a space with very similar dimensions to what you described with zero access to the grid. We recently had work done that involved fixing an electric that had been broken for several years. A lift line was threaded incorrectly through a loft block during the install and went over a spreader bolt, eventually sawing through the bolt and allowing the sides of the block to press against the pulley essentially becoming a friction brake. This was fixed in 2017, the building was built in 1995. That repair would have taken a qualified tech maybe an hour or two to do with catwalk access. Instead it took years of petitioning for a qualified rigging contractor to come out, with a lift. Unfortunately the tallest lift that our floor is able to support doesn't quite reach the grid. I won't go into details there, but it was involved. Fortunately it was the outside block. If it were in the middle it probably wouldn't have gotten fixed at that time. We are pushing to get relatively consistent inspections done, but there is a large portion of the system that cannot ever be closely inspected due to lack of access. 

Anytime a lift line gets fouled (usually the long one flips over another) that's a trip maxing out the genie lift with a long pole to right it. I actually just heard of a damaged fly system nearby where a runway bar crashed and they are awaiting the process of getting the qualified team out to inspect and do the repairs. A process that generally takes months. In the meantime, that batten is suspended and there's no way to tell if anything over stage was damaged from shockloading. 

Another aspect of our space that is uniquely annoying is the multicable for the electric is terminated directly over the electrics and not on the side as is more common. It's almost impossible to access some of those boxes, should one fail (as has happened in similar spaces near us) it's a very challenging and dangerous task to fix. A walkable space over stage would make that significantly less of a problem. 

I think the value you are placing here is with good cause.


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## kicknargel (Jul 25, 2018)

In terms of whether it's worth walking away from the project, here's a question to ask yourself: what are the consequences of a failure due to non-inspection? If the consequences are a huge PITA and expense, well then the user is paying the price of value engineering, which you warned them about. If the consequence is injury and death, I'd consider walking away.


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## microstar (Jul 25, 2018)

I would imagine there are thousands of auditoriums/theatres that do not have catwalks/grids for access to their rigging system.
A majority of them probably never get inspected and/or worked on until something jams. Seems like if you warn the architect and owner and they opt for the value engineering, you've done your best to present the facts. We all know the fact is that if something bad happens, people can still sue you even if it's not your fault. So if the catwalks were included in the project and something happened, you would still be in the line of fire.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Jul 25, 2018)

Stan - at beginning of design. Whole building has to be designed and then bid, so hard to tell.

Mike - I base my $50,000 on having had these bid as alternates - around $10,000 each. Minimal service catwalks - 60' X 2'. Which means catwalks are definitely cheaper than motorized electrics BTW. Access to two steps up from the loading bridge, sometimes level. If they want to cut the loading bridge - then I'm gone. Just inspected a place with no bridge and 15 sets - a third had crashed as evidenced by bent arbor bottoms and torn off top stops - and there was a bull winch - which nobody knew how to use - the problem with bull winches. (And I have had rigging companies tell me it was a definite install cost savings.)

Nick - I consider injury and serious injury a definite potential for improperly maintained rigging. Or as I usually tell the Owner in defending these, with them, if you hear a noise or thump or squeak - you can go look and see if there is a problem. Without them, all you can do is pray. (Not so effective at certain private schools.)

Microstar et al - Yes, there are lots of underhung rigging systems with no access, and probably the majority of them not maintained. I don't think that make it right or good design. And having access does not guarantee inspection or maintenance or safety - but I know it increases the odds significantly.

Please continue.


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## Van (Jul 25, 2018)

I can say in the last 4 years I have not had a single under-hung stage that has had cross-stage catwalks installed in such a manner. As a matter of fact I've had to book several boom/snorkel lifts so Technicians could perform inspections on almost every non-walking floor grid I've seen.


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## TimMc (Jul 25, 2018)

Hi Bill-

Human behavior is such that things that are inconvenient and/or expensive to do, and for which there is not an immediate, life-threatening need, will not get done. Making things more convenient is not a guarantee that inspections or maintenance will get done but convenience has the benefit of easily predictable costs because you've built in the access. Figuring it out later is certain to cost more.

Lower operating costs, potentially safer work environment is probably the way to pitch your catwalks. If the architect doesn't see the value in those it might be prudent to inquire of him as to what he's really wanting to present to the client. You can decide then if you want to continue participating.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Jul 25, 2018)

Van said:


> I can say in the last 4 years I have not had a single under-hung stage that has had cross-stage catwalks installed in such a manner. As a matter of fact I've had to book several boom/snorkel lifts so Technicians could perform inspections on almost every non-walking floor grid I've seen.


And thsts an ok thing or a good thing? It is a concept I have not seen anyone else do., but probably some have. Certainly more typical to put a full walkable grid in but that's not inexpensive, and then you have to go over the 50' and that's at least several hundred thousand for that first inch OR you end up with maybe a 35-38' high trim throughout.


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## teqniqal (Jul 25, 2018)

I don't think you are undervaluing the fly loft access at all. I have this same challenge come-up all the time. Maybe the best solution is to put the architect up on a 45' lift and see how they imagine spending a week up there doing an inspection . . .

Attached is a whitepaper based upon a blog post I made on the now defunct TheatreFace site [RIP].


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## Amiers (Jul 25, 2018)

teqniqal said:


> I don't think you are undervaluing the fly loft access at all. I have this same challenge come-up all the time. Maybe the best solution is to put the architect up on a 45' lift and see how they imagine spending a week up there doing an inspection . . .
> 
> Attached is a whitepaper based upon a blog post I made on the now defunct TheatreFace site [RIP].



I’ll bet Bill a C note he can’t get that architect in the facility let alone a lift. They care about the bottom dollar and getting their bid in. It’s the nature of the beast. Bill my suggestion to you is do what you do and if they don’t take your advice walk away. A 1/5 of your income is a good sacrifice to your good mental health.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Jul 26, 2018)

Nice paper Erich. So true. I hope you don't mind if I send a copy to this client. Of course if he doesn't want to hire me for this issue he may decide not to ask you.

PS: you should allow DVS to post it here in Resources.


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## MNicolai (Jul 26, 2018)

Amiers said:


> I’ll bet Bill a C note he can’t get that architect in the facility let alone a lift. They care about the bottom dollar and getting their bid in. It’s the nature of the beast.



FWIW, I haven't encountered any architects who had disregard for the quality of their project. They want to make their clients happy, and their clients are applying pressure to keep project costs low, otherwise they (the client) will get fired by their boss or will have to resign. Construction costs have skyrocketed in the last couple years, especially with the introduction of tariffs. Districts are building campuses based on the last projects they built 10 years ago, and even when corrected for inflation you cannot build a 2000-student high school for that anymore. I'm seeing a lot of projects K12 and otherwise come in at 15-25% over budget. Engineers, architects, electricians, plumbers -- there aren't enough of them out there. Lot of them left the industry or retired after 2008 and now that the economy has recovered that talent has not been able to recover at the pace of construction projects commencing. Bidders are throwing high numbers at projects because they'll either have to hire new people if they get them or they'll have to do it with existing workers on overtime.

One of my recent projects was a 2000 student school with a 750-seat theater wing. Project came in at $85M based on a $50M budget that was an inflation-corrected budget from the last school that had been constructed. Everything was getting VE'd across the entire project. I showed up on a Monday to an email that there were 4 VE alternates being looked at to bring the project costs down that would be presented to the school board that afternoon. The top 3 options all included killing the auditorium and reducing the student capacity by 400-800 students. At the last minute we were able to save the theater by going to a black box theater instead -- something is better than nothing -- and that was still with a student capacity reduction of 400. If building a full auditorium meant reducing capacity another 200 students, you can bet the public outrage would be off the charts.

Resist the urge to be cynical. Projects don't cost what they used to.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Jul 26, 2018)

In my experience Mike is correct. A few years ago I was riding with and architect to a project and he pointed to a building. It was his first (elementary) school. $10/sf. Today, that is at least $250/sf. A 750 seat high school auditorium with 50' stage with rigging is $10M today. Its very hard to get school boards and administrators to accept that; and thus the pressure is to cut what they can't see or don't understand. That's a lot in auditoriums and stages ordinary people don't see or understand, and it is darned hard to defend all of it successfully from concept to substantial completion. The architect up front, school board and administrators near end of design estimates, and the contractors during bidding and building. All those thing that are important to seeing and hearing and generally supporting the performer audience relationship are always under attack.

The worst part is when I see their means are very far from their dreams, and try to suggest alternatives that can be done acceptably well for the budget. Too often they decide to try to do the dream scheme and it ends up being a noisy, poorly equipped, safety compromised venue that does not support the students or community very well at all, and creates expectations that can't be met. I accept not all communities can afford the grand PAC, but let's build a room that has some quality and redeeming values. Mike's black box being an example.

I love some of the late 1920s up till WW II high school theatres. Generally complete and thoughtful, even if hemp rigging, resistance dimmers have, a very large Voice of the Theatre speaker hidden behind a grill, all which don't work anymore. They didn't cheap out like today.


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## Jay Ashworth (Jul 26, 2018)

It will eventually drop something and kill someone.

Your career is based on not letting that happen.

Put the catwalks in, tell them why, remind them that the cost of the catwalks is delta, if not epsilon, and ask them if they want to be the reason some kid dies in a decade.

And yes, if you don't like the answer, bail, and make sure they know why.

As for "what things cost now, and what the public will tolerate"... there's a vocal Arts activism community now. Find them. Sell the differential to *them*, and let them string up the school board to get all of it done. 

If you were looking for support for your view, here you go.


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## Stan Longhofer (Jul 26, 2018)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> Its very hard to get school boards and administrators to accept that; and thus the pressure is to cut what they can't see or don't understand. That's a lot in auditoriums and stages ordinary people don't see or understand, and it is darned hard to defend all of it successfully from concept to substantial completion.


Which is why I think it's so important to get these decision makers into comparable spaces with a theater professional to see the real impact of these decisions. Erich's suggestion of getting the architect up on a lift would be even better applied to the school administrators (perhaps along with their attorneys). Of course, it is also up to the drama teachers and tech directors to do the ongoing work of educating them about what is really involved in putting together theatrical events.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Jul 26, 2018)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> And thsts an ok thing or a good thing? It is a concept I have not seen anyone else do., but probably some have. Certainly more typical to put a full walkable grid in but that's not inexpensive, and then you have to go over the 50' and that's at least several hundred thousand for that first inch OR you end up with maybe a 35-38' high trim throughout.


 I meant to include that Central High School in Rapid City SD is of this design and is the last project of mine done by Stagecraft.


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## JAC (Jul 26, 2018)

Bill, do you think the client will end up with a better/safer theatre if you walk away? I'd bet not.


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## bobgaggle (Jul 26, 2018)

I don't know, many wiser people than me have already spoken. But here's my 2 cents. The responsibility to inspect is on the owner, not the architect or consultant. You can put in beautiful catwalks and give them all the access in the world, and they still may not inspect. Much has already been said about the difficulty of getting the funding to bring in a pro. I got a quick online quote of $750/week to rent a 50' lift in my area. 66 years worth of annual inspections to get up to $50k. I think the math speaks for itself...

Seems like the only real sticking point is how much you care about the people who are going to be working in the venue. School board doesn't care about them/how easy it is to work in that environment. They don't get it.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Jul 26, 2018)

JAC said:


> Bill, do you think the client will end up with a better/safer theatre if you walk away? I'd bet not.


Good question. I have no idea. Many possible outcomes. What happens if it's contractor designed, no access, never inspected, and in 25 years no accidents? How many nights can someone drive home drunk and avoid consequences? It's a risk I am no longer interested in taking. 

(I have one no-access new build project iirc - many years ago. I think a couple of retrofits.)


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## kicknargel (Jul 26, 2018)

Frankly, I'm uncomfortable with the the idea of a fly system in any space that does not have a full-time, professional TD. An early mentor once said that a theatre is the only place in the US where you can operate a crane over people's heads. Not positive that's true, but it lends perspective. Would we let a drama teacher and some students maintain and operate a construction crane, or ski lift or something? To me, if you can't meet x,y and z standards, you just can't have the thing. Lots of great theatre happens without fly systems. 

Of course, now you're spending way more time on a ladder / lift / scaffold. Is that safer? As a HS student I once left myself hanging from a batten when my (poorly maintained) ladder went out from under me. Risk assessment is hard.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Jul 26, 2018)

kicknargel said:


> Frankly, I'm uncomfortable with the the idea of a fly system in any space that does not have a full-time, professional TD. An early mentor once said that a theatre is the only place in the US where you can operate a crane over people's heads. Not positive that's true, but it lends perspective. Would we let a drama teacher and some students maintain and operate a construction crane, or ski lift or something? To me, if you can't meet x,y and z standards, you just can't have the thing. Lots of great theatre happens without fly systems.
> 
> Of course, now you're spending way more time on a ladder / lift / scaffold. Is that safer? As a HS student I once left myself hanging from a batten when my (poorly maintained) ladder went out from under me. Risk assessment is hard.



+1

Yes - as I understand it there are not supposed to be workers allowed under hoisted loads on a construction sight but on a stage, all is allowed and customary. Repeating myself (though I don't think recently) of the 7 exceptions to a guard (rail) in the codes, 5 are specific to stages and entertainment technology and one of the other two is loading docks, aslo common to stages. I'm pretty certain that fall hazard results in many more injuries than rigging, another reason for having qualified persons responsible for stage and auditorium operation.


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## lwinters630 (Jul 29, 2018)

Bill, I don't think you should walk away. As mention most staff employed at these theaters are not qualified to actually inspect rigging. Yet all rigging should be inspected. Stating such in your specs should suffice. There are options that they can choose from, catwalks are one. But write specs that fit what they are asking for that meet codes.


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## venuetech (Jul 29, 2018)

Perhaps a cost of ownership analysis would show the benefits of easy inspection access? At some point the extra steel will pay for itself.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Jul 29, 2018)

I can't accept the liability of having a non expert make a choice that I, as expert, know is wrong or at least doesn't meet the standard of care for the issue, whether I'm told of the choice or not. Owner or architect or contractor changes the way the rigging is done and it goes teats up, I have responsibility.

I think Erich explains very well the value of building in access.

If we all didn't seem to have fun and enjoy the crafts and tasks of performing arts, it might be taken more seriously. (That's meant to be a little humorous for those that take everything seriously.)


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## teqniqal (Aug 9, 2018)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> Nice paper Erich. So true. I hope you don't mind if I send a copy to this client. Of course if he doesn't want to hire me for this issue he may decide not to ask you.
> 
> PS: you should allow DVS to post it here in Resources.


Sorry for the late response, but yes, feel free to share it with your potential client.
@dvsDave yes, feel free to post to the resources.


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## MPowers (Aug 9, 2018)

Erich, I just caught up on some reading, VERY nice paper re: missing steel. Bill, you know my feelings on this. Sometimes it feels I'm just beating my head against a wall, or pushing a boulder up a hill .....again....! For what its worth, I've been in a couple of Bill's buildings and I really like the multiple catwalk solution if a full walking grid is out of the question. This is a battle I've been, .... we've all been, fighting for years. I was involved in a building in Iowa that, against my adamant advice, included neither a loading rail or a grid or catwalks. I tried to have my name removed from the project but for legal and a number of other reasons, I was unable. TD's will curse my name for decades to come, I'm sure. After completion they wound up having to add an overhaul winch to load arbors and students were not allowed to use it. There were a couple of "fixes" that had to be done at grid height after construction was 99% complete. Getting a 55' lift in, overlaying the floor with several layers of 3/4" ply to help support the lift, about 3-4 hours worth of labor every time the lift had to move up or down stage , etc etc. Bill, let them look at the stage at the newest High school stage in Ft Dodge, Iowa if they want to see the folly of not having access.


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## RonHebbard (Aug 9, 2018)

MPowers said:


> Erich, I just caught up on some reading, VERY nice paper re: missing steel. Bill, you know my feelings on this. Sometimes it feels I'm just beating my head against a wall, or pushing a boulder up a hill .....again....! For what its worth, I've been in a couple of Bill's buildings and I really like the multiple catwalk solution if a full walking grid is out of the question. This is a battle I've been, .... we've all been, fighting for years. I was involved in a building in Iowa that, against my adamant advice, included neither a loading rail or a grid or catwalks. I tried to have my name removed from the project but for legal and a number of other reasons, I was unable. TD's will curse my name for decades to come, I'm sure. After completion they wound up having to add an overhaul winch to load arbors and students were not allowed to use it. There were a couple of "fixes" that had to be done at grid height after construction was 99% complete. Getting a 55' lift in, overlaying the floor with several layers of 3/4" ply to help support the lift, about 3-4 hours worth of labor every time the lift had to move up or down stage , etc etc. Bill, let them look at the stage at the newest High school stage in Ft Dodge, Iowa if they want to see the folly of not having access.


 @venuetech @BillConnerFASTC @MPowers @teqniqal @twinters630 *Writing in support with two queries:* 
_So long as height AFF _(Above Finished Floor)_ is available,_ hand rails on both sides of multiple catwalks cost money to draw, fabricate and weld in position. At what point is it more affordable to run a steel grid wall to wall and US to DS with either loft blocks on the grid or suspended from beams overhead and save the cost of all of the custom handrails? 
Toodleoo! 
Ron Hebbard


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## BillConnerFASTC (Aug 9, 2018)

The issue is high trim. You can have a high (batten) trim around 45' between and upstage and down stage of the catwalks with a 50' roof deck. If this was continous, high trim would be limited to 37-38'. I think the higher trim is well worth having an 18-20' masking trim and being able to fly 20-22' drops. And to go over 50' high roof deck is probably a half to three quarter million dollar add because of the fire separation of stage from auditorium.

I think you also over estimate the complexity of the railings - just two runs of 2 1/2 or 3 inch angle. Plus the full grid more than triples the sq feet of walking area, and requires more structure to support it.

Its a choice but I simply try to make the most of a 50' stage.

PS catwalk deck is less expensive than anything suitable for a gridiron.


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## kicknargel (Aug 10, 2018)

I'm now sitting down to design a quad-copter powered personnel lift that will allow work at any height in any location with no load on the floor. I'm going to be a billionaire and you will all thank me.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Aug 10, 2018)

I plan to make my billion by inventing a high speed toaster. As someone that has spent a lot of time in hotel breakfast areas waiting for toast, I'm sure there is a huge market. I figure a combination of gas flames, microwaves, and flash of radiation - just a little piece of radium - ought to do it.


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## RonHebbard (Aug 10, 2018)

kicknargel said:


> I'm now sitting down to design a quad-copter powered personnel lift that will allow work at any height in any location with no load on the floor. *I'm going to be a billionaire* _and you will all thank me._


 @kicknargel *I'm loving it* and definitely NOT laughing. It's easy to think back to a time when scissor lifts were not only unheard of but not within anyone's wildest imagination or future thoughts, trestle ladders loose-pinned onto custom built dollies accompanied by dedicated four person crews at the base before the lone climber straddled the top to work with both hands free reigned supreme and hydraulic motorized 'zoom-booms' became commonplace. Remember when the first pneumatic "air lifts" came out, the springy ones that rose on three 36' telescoping pneumatic cylinders? Remember when you and your tools used to clamber aboard, tramp on the foot operated valve until you slowly ascended to your desired height using your hands and arms to breast drops, borders and LX pipes out of your way and the label instructed you to stand on the gripper for the ACL and continue adding pressurized air until the lift was stable with the ACL under tension? 
If you're still with me, I'm certain you can still recall leaning hard into your hammer-drill to drill holes in your poured concrete ceiling to secure 'tamp-in' anchors only to find your knees rising up to your shoulders when you'd completed drilling a hole due to your efforts having effectively further compressed the lift down just enough to release the brake's grip on the tensioning cable. 
Yeah, you too remember those days and the first generations of those lifts. 
@kicknargel , as I said 'way back on page 1, I'm loving your vision and I'm most emphatically *NOT laughing*. 
Toodleoo! 
Ron Hebbard


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## tjrobb (Aug 11, 2018)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> I plan to make my billion by inventing a high speed toaster. As someone that has spent a lot of time in hotel breakfast areas waiting for toast, I'm sure there is a huge market. I figure a combination of gas flames, microwaves, and flash of radiation - just a little piece of radium - ought to do it.


With the right amount of radium, both you and the bread get toasted! [email protected]


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## BillConnerFASTC (Aug 11, 2018)

tjrobb said:


> With the right amount of radium, both you and the bread get toasted! [email protected]


Solves social security and Medicare running out on money as well.


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## MPowers (Aug 12, 2018)

RonHebbard said:


> @kicknargel *I'm loving it* and definitely NOT laughing. It's easy to think back to a time when scissor lifts were not only unheard of but not within anyone's wildest imagination or future thoughts, trestle ladders loose-pinned onto custom built dollies accompanied by dedicated four person crews at the base before the lone climber straddled the top to work with both hands free reigned supreme and hydraulic motorized 'zoom-booms' became commonplace. Remember when the first pneumatic "air lifts" came out, the springy ones that rose on three 36' telescoping pneumatic cylinders? Remember when you and your tools used to clamber aboard, tramp on the foot operated valve until you slowly ascended to your desired height using your hands and arms to breast drops, borders and LX pipes out of your way and the label instructed you to stand on the gripper for the ACL and continue adding pressurized air until the lift was stable with the ACL under tension?
> If you're still with me, I'm certain you can still recall leaning hard into your hammer-drill to drill holes in your poured concrete ceiling to secure 'tamp-in' anchors only to find your knees rising up to your shoulders when you'd completed drilling a hole due to your efforts having effectively further compressed the lift down just enough to release the brake's grip on the tensioning cable.
> Yeah, you too remember those days and the first generations of those lifts.
> @kicknargel , as I said 'way back on page 1, I'm loving your vision and I'm most emphatically *NOT laughing*.
> ...



I do indeed remember all the above. Including the A frame on a rolling 4x8 wagon, but without the 4 helpers. I've "heard" that "some people" would move themselves py pulling sideways on the pipe, .... or so I've "heard." The same with early Geni's before we learned about outriggers........ so I've "heard!"
When I first started rigging there were no such things as chain motors. Rigging in an auditorium meant climbing up and placing a block and fall. When everything was in place, a whole *LOT* of stagehands hauled at once! Of course we weren't rigging 20,000 lb. concert ceilings with s0 or more movers. It took a lot longer to rig all the block and falls than todays chain motors. We had two complete sets of rigging and Ron (lead rigger) and I would leapfrog a stop ahead and rig everything, go back to the gig that is striking, run strike, next day pull all the rigging from the grid and trusses, leap ahead and start over. We prayed for for at least 4 day weekend runs and cursed the promoter for one night stands.


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## RonHebbard (Aug 13, 2018)

MPowers said:


> I do indeed remember all the above. Including the A frame on a rolling 4x8 wagon, but without the 4 helpers. I've "heard" that "some people" would move themselves py pulling sideways on the pipe, .... or so I've "heard." The same with early Geni's before we learned about outriggers........ so I've "heard!"
> When I first started rigging there were no such things as chain motors. Rigging in an auditorium meant climbing up and placing a block and fall. When everything was in place, a whole *LOT* of stagehands hauled at once! Of course we weren't rigging 20,000 lb. concert ceilings with s0 or more movers. It took a lot longer to rig all the block and falls than todays chain motors. We had two complete sets of rigging and *Ron (lead rigger)* and I would leapfrog a stop ahead and rig everything, go back to the gig that is striking, run strike, next day pull all the rigging from the grid and trusses, leap ahead and start over. We prayed for for at least 4 day weekend runs and cursed the promoter for one night stands.


 *@MPowers * Matching your memories and recalling the blocks as 3 to 2 blocks each reeved with approximately 400' of 5/8" hemp to tour 60' venues. 
Toodleoo! 
Ron (Most definitely NEVER a lead rigger but often the short IA guy on the ground under the cluster of perspiring arm pits) Hebbard


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## kicknargel (Aug 13, 2018)

I spent a week with a circus in Mexico, and they didn't even have the A-frame, just a straight ladder and 4 guys to hold it up while one climbed. Granted, they were the acrobats after they finished loading in.


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## RonHebbard (Aug 13, 2018)

kicknargel said:


> I spent a week with a circus in Mexico, and they didn't even have the A-frame, just a straight ladder and 4 guys to hold it up while one climbed. Granted, they were the acrobats after they finished loading in.


@kicknargel Funny you should mention: Early in the fall of 1990, I found myself in the role of 2nd assistant LX responsible for operating the #1 spot, calling the cues for the operators of spots 2 and 3 plus focusing all of the approximately 300 lamps in our FOH. There were 13 IA members on the tour, 12 from local 58 Toronto and myself from Hamilton, Ontario's IA 129. When we arrived for our month in SanFrancisco, I focused all of our 2nd overhead FOH from a bosun's chair rigged from a focusing track supported by a pair of 1 ton CM Loadstars, all of which we were carrying . When it came time to focus our six FOH box booms the local crew went to a closet behind the second balcony bar and pulled out the lower two 20' sections of a near antique 60' wooden extension ladder, the ladder was from an era when approximately the lower 4' of its side rails were intentionally curved out approximately ten or twelve inches on each side to effectively broaden the ladder's foot-print by close to two feet. The crew carried the base section down to the rail of the second balcony where they handed it down to additional minions on the first balcony who prevented the ladder from damaging the building or our 2nd balcony rail instruments and passed the ladder off to even more minions awaiting at orchestra level. Once the lower portion of their ladderwas resting between the fixed seats at orchestra level, the 2nd balcony local brothers went back to their closet behind the second balcony bar to fetch what's normally their ladder's third (upper-most) section and brought it back by the same paths to the rail of the second balcony where they lowered it over and carefully mated it into the waiting lower section. Their local crew chief had pre-determined 40' of their 60' ladder would be sufficient for me to focus each of our six FOH box booms (3 per side) beginning in each case from the top and working my way down periodically descending to alter the ladder's height to focus our typically three instruments at each elevation. As I mentioned, part of my responsibilities were to focus all of our FOH, literally every lamp on the house side of the curtain line including fore-stage booms and our 1st FOH truss suspend by three more Loadstar's over our stage extension which extended out to cover most of their orchestra pit, partially to permit floor monitors to hang beneath the extension and be heard via painted grille cloth covered heavy gauge expanded metal and partially to extend our stage as close as possible to the first row since all of our music was performed live by the cast including from a rear corridor band room by cast members portraying characters not presently required on stage.
*HERE'S THE PART YOUR POST REMINDED ME OF:*
All of our deck electrics, side booms and 9 flown LX pipes were focused by our 1st assistant LX from one of several personnel lifts we were carrying. Due to our fore-stage being cantilevered out over their orchestra pit, our production carpenter was unwilling to risk rolling either of our personnel lifts across our non-supported stage extension.
When it was time to focus our 1st FOH truss, my trusty team of approximately six 'ladder lackies' were totally at ease with the concept of adjusting the height of their two 20' sections then supporting it nigh on vertical while I clambered up and made myself comfortable seated on the upper-most rung so I could have two hands free to focus and finesse gobos within their holders. All of our stage LX was touring with us but since there were only two stops on our tour prior to arriving at Broadway's Shubert, and since our stops in Calgary and SanFransisco were in RADICALLY different size venues, all of the FOH instruments we'd used in Toronto's Royal Alex' were stored and trucked directly to Broadway where the Shubert's FOH required essentially fixtures of the same beam angles. For the trip across our 1st FOH truss, our 'ladder lackies' carefully flip-flopped a couple of sheets of 3/4" ply over the painted grilles of our sunken monitor speakers all the while keeping my ladder and I safe and secure on our journey across our truss. Only once did things get a little tense when I'd just completed focusing the physically longest special on our pipe and couldn't possibly duck under it without descending a rung or two while the bulk of my team of 'ladder lackies' were attempting to trudge ever onwards. I'll admit to raising my voice a little as they valiantly attempted to push me through the fixture I'd just precisely finessed and it slowly sunk in that my end of their ladder was no longer coming along for the ride. I MAY admit to more than once having walked my own ladder across a pipe (and I MAY even admit to having done so on one occasion when I was alone in the venue) but I honestly can't recall ever having been waltzed across the very edge of a curved apron lip atop two 20' sections of a heavy OLD wooden extension ladder by a team of four to six (clearly experienced) IA 'ladder lackies'. If I were ever to author a book, that'd be one of the more 'unique' experiences I'd be sure to include. I can't remember the name of the venue but I'm certain CB'ers from SanFransisco will have heard of it; the stage door was located immediately adjacent to McArthur Park and opened to a lengthy run of steps leading down to stage level which was appreciably below grade. Now that I'm thinking about it, I believe our 7 densely packed trailers loaded in via their lobby.
Thanks for the memories @kicknargel
*PS:* When we were approximately 3/4 of the way across our 1st FOH truss we realized we just might be able to complete our FOH focus prior to end of day thus everyone, our LX designer, our button pusher. our 'ladder lackies' and I agreed to hustle just a tad harder so as not to have to return for another 8:00 call and then it happened. The unmistakeable sound of a motor chain spilling out of its bag and running out all the way to its end. The motor was supporting a scenic element and thus not LX's problem but the problem was the chain had spilled from a motor about six feet above our 1st FOH truss, the truss we were fast approaching completion of focus. This was about to necessitate the carps coming in for a seven or eight a.m. call and attempting to breast our meticulously focused truss out of their way to reach their motor's bag and hand-bomb its chain back up and neatly into its bag. There was no way we wanted the carps coming in without us and attempting to work around and over our 1st FOH truss. As I by now had established a great rapport with my faithful 'ladder lackies', coupled with the joy I knew they'd derive from having the carps crew beholden to them for the rest of our month, I boldly suggested it may be worth it for them to invest an extra ten minutes upon completion of the focus of our 1st FOH truss so I could carefully thread our ladder up the extra 6', hand-bomb the grease covered motor chain up and back into its bag then climb back down the ladder with my grease-coated hands and forearms. My 'ladder lackies' agreed it'd be worth it to tease their carps brethren MERCILESSLY for the remainder of our month and our Head carp was more than pleased to have a large towel awaiting for me upon my return to HIS barely adequately supported deck.
*EDIT:* Removed an inadvertently repeated word. 
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard


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