# 2P&G/Stage Pin vs. Edison vs. Twist-Lock



## lieperjp

Why does the theatre use 2P&G? What are the advantages? It would seem that either the Edison (for it's common-ness?) or the Twist-Lock (safety - won't come apart) would have more advantages.

This is something I've been wondering for a while now.


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## Thefoxygranpa

My highschool has all stagepin installed...everywhere. However, the new highschool in our district was just built and they have all twist-lock.

Bizzare!


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## fredthe

Having dimmed circuits on something other than Edison has the advantage of keeping you from plugging unsuitable loads into dimmed circuits.
All of the HS new contruction/renovations I've seen recently are 2P&G. Also, it's the standard for rental houses around here; if you spec twist-lock, they'll send adapters.
Also, over the years there have been a variety of twist-lock configurations... 2P&G had never changed. While twist does have other uses, I've never seen 2P&G on anything other than a lighting circuit... makes it hard to confuse with something else.

-Fred


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## rochem

Personally, I prefer using 2P&G, although I have yet to rewire an entire theatre from L5-20 to 2P&G just to suit my personal preference. I prefer Stage Pin partially because it's what I first learned with and what most professional theatres around here use, and also because it's less obtrusive than a Twist-Lock (in my opinion). Stage Pin is nice and flat and square and easy to tape down or label or something, while twist lock has larger, round connectors which get in the way more. Also, if you split the pins properly on the 2P&G, then the connectors shouldn't be coming apart under normal conditions. Someone else will probably come along to discuss how one connector is better from an electricity standpoint, but I don't know much about that so I'll leave that to others.

Personally, I think that the common-ness of Edison connectors is actually what would make them _bad_ for theatre use. Most Edison connectors are only 15A, and household extension cords are almost never properly rated for high loads on the stage. If you try to run 3 Source Fours @ 750W through a household extension cord through a 15A Edison, you could have a serious problem on your hands. I have done shows in theatres that used Edison connectors, and used household extension cords for extra cabling, but I was able to make sure that everything came in well under the max load for that cable or connector. The average music teacher thrown into doing tech work would not know that his bright orange garden extension cord couldn't handle as much power as the dimmers are designed for. And of course, there's the problem of people always cutting off the ground pin on their devices and extension cords.


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## cdub260

lieperjp said:


> Why does the theatre use 2P&G? What are the advantages? It would seem that either the Edison (for it's common-ness?) or the Twist-Lock (safety - won't come apart) would have more advantages.
> 
> This is something I've been wondering for a while now.



I have worked in venues that use L5-20 twist-lock connectors, and they most certainly do come apart, far more easily than a 2P&G with properly spread pins. Oh, when they're new they stay together just fine, but as they age and take abuse, they seem to lose that ability. There will be disagreement on this subject, but I feel that the 2P&G is a more robust connector, better able to handle the rigors of stage use.


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## mrb

As others have stated, 2P&G is often chosen due to the fact that it greatly cuts down on the chances of things that shouldnt get plugged into a dimmer being plugged into your dimmers. 

While the (good) 2P&G connectors are pretty rugged, the pins on a male twistlock are quite fragile and are easily bent out of shape. Then when a misshapen male twistlock is forced into a female, it spreads the contacts in the female leading to burned and melted connectors. 

That being said I actually own quite a bit of 20amp/120v twistlock cable, adaptors, and twofers that I use for temporary event power.


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## Clifford

We used to be all stagepin, but a few years ago the district decided to change everything over to L5-20 (twistlock). Everything except what they were too cheap to replace: the floor pockets, because they are the original Kliegl ones with stagepin receptacles and the spacing would have been different for the twistlock, meaning new pockets; and the second electric, which the electrician doing the change managed to screw up (he also did work on the dimmers and wiring). I don't have a problem with twistlock, it's great. You typically don't have to worry about it coming apart (great for vertical runs when you have no pin splitter) and nobody is going to plug their CD player into it.


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## cdub260

Clifford said:


> I don't have a problem with twistlock, it's great. You typically don't have to worry about it coming apart (great for vertical runs when you have no pin splitter) and nobody is going to plug their CD player into it.



Um, did you have issues with people plugging their CD players into 2P&G receptacles?


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## Footer

Proper 20amp edison connectors are hardly ever seen in the wild. Even if your theatre was edison, it should be using the 20amp plugs which are just as rare as a stagepin connector. I have both twistlock and stagepin in one of my theatres, the twistlock connectors are ND moving light power.


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## dramatech

Being of that age that remembers when most theatres were stageplug (not the same as stagepin), I have seen the evolution of changes in theatres. The stagepin was originally only two pins and had little or no strain relief. Many states and county wiring codes changed especially in public buildings, to twistlock as it was considered to be much safer. I can't speak for all states, but I know that Virginia and I believe California and New York were among the many. This is why you will see twistlock in High Schools and colleges more than in professional houses. With the addition of the ground pin and the improvement of the strain relief, such as Bates connectors, many of the codes changed again and started to allow stagepin. That is one of the reasons, that some of the newer performing arts high schools were then built with stagepin. This also gave the students an environment that would be more like what they were likely to see in the professional world.
In our community, two of the four community theatres have stagepin and two have edison. (Guess which ones were built as theatres and which were converted churches.)
All of the high schools other than the performing arts high schools have twistloock with the performing arts high school having stagepin. One college has stagepin and the other one has three theatres. The one used for concert series/roadhouse has stagepin. The student production "in the Round" has Edison 288 dimmers, and the teaching theatre has twistlock. "Go figure". Most of the reasoning for the selections were made by what the code was at the time the theatre was built.


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## n1ist

Everything I do is temporary with shoebox dimmers, so I use 5-15 for all. It also comes in handy when I need to supply extensions for the sound guy.


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## JChenault

One poster asked 'Why are stagepins prefered'. My reasons:

1 - Carry a full 20 amps ( unlike most edison plugs in common use).
2 - Much sturdier than either twist lock or edison.
3 - Substantially cheaper than twistlock or edison.
4 - Will not roll if stepped on. 

The only disadvantage I see over twist lock is that they do not lock. I can live with that. 

John


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## Footer

JChenault said:


> 3 - Substantially cheaper than twistlock or edison.



Where are you buying your plugs from, because I want in on that.


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## SteveB

Footer said:


> Where are you buying your plugs from, because I want in on that.



Bates 2P&G run $4.20 or so at Pro-Adv.

20a Twists typically are around $7 - $9 for a male, $9 - $10 or so for a females

Edison varies and there's a ton of cheap crap. Hospital grade is about as expensive as Twist. The better quality 20 AMP RATED Edisons are twice as expensive as 2P&G. 

SB


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## mrb

to clear up a misconception about edison connectors, 20amp ones dont have any better current carrying capacity over a 15amp connector. The pins are the same, just oriented differently in the male, and one contact in the female is T shaped, but again has the same current carrying capacity. The only reason these two different devices exist is to keep appliances that need a 20amp circuit from being plugged into a 15amp circuit.

Hopefully no one is using the cheapo hardware store edison connectors, should only be using hubbell or leviton (I prefer leviton as the strain relief accomodates 12/3 SO better than the hubbell) 5266 / 5269 series.


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## Dionysus

As an electrician I do have to say that I don't believe Edisons should ever be used for professional lighting. I've seen it a couple of times, but it scares me. The thought of someone running a 2.4kw load though an orange extension cord makes me cringe. At that 20a rated edisons are expensive and hard to get your hands on.

Most theatre spaces I've seen in this part of Canada use Twist-lock. They work well (just don't treat them like they are invincible). I love the fact that they lock, and they are actually rated for 20a (well the 20a ones are). But with twist-lock it is IMPOSSIBLE to interface a 15a or 30a connector into a 20a one. There are different designs for twist-lock connectors for a VERY GOOD REASON.

I've dealt VERY LITTLE with stage-pin connectors, I love the fact that they are flat-ish and are rated. Not to mention the fact that they are only used in one application unlike the others.


cdub260 said:


> I have worked in venues that use L5-20 twist-lock connectors, and they most certainly do come apart, far more easily than a 2P&G with properly spread pins. Oh, when they're new they stay together just fine, but as they age and take abuse, they seem to lose that ability. There will be disagreement on this subject, but I feel that the 2P&G is a more robust connector, better able to handle the rigors of stage use.



I don't think I've ever seen one come apart that was twisted-together correctly. I don't doubt that it is possible, if the pins have been smacked around ALOT and abused and the person didn't make sure it was locked.

for example during teardowns when cables are being tossed down I always make sure someone is down there to catch the connectors so they don't smack against the floor and get broken (or bent pins).

And for stagepin, one thing keeps getting said that is important


> "As long as the pins are split correctly"


Not everyone knows how to do it, or that it has to be done. And with the design of the stagepin connector, if the pins are partially exposed it doesn't take much for it to go BOOM. That's why the pins of a twistlock are oriented in the way they are.


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## Clifford

cdub260 said:


> Um, did you have issues with people plugging their CD players into 2P&G receptacles?



No, which is my point. Twistlock still prevents people from plugging into dimmed power. Unless they carry an L5-20 to edison with them.


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## Dionysus

mrb said:


> to clear up a misconception about edison connectors, 20amp ones dont have any better current carrying capacity over a 15amp connector. The pins are the same, just oriented differently in the male, and one contact in the female is T shaped, but again has the same current carrying capacity. The only reason these two different devices exist is to keep appliances that need a 20amp circuit from being plugged into a 15amp circuit.
> 
> Hopefully no one is using the cheapo hardware store edison connectors, should only be using hubbell or leviton (I prefer leviton as the strain relief accomodates 12/3 SO better than the hubbell) 5266 / 5269 series.



The electrical code states that you cannot use a 5-15 on a 20-amp circuit. The main exception is with hospital grade, where you MUST use 12awg wire.

And those cheapo connectors REALLY should not be used with 12awg wire nor on 20a circuits. There are three grades of 5-15s that I am familiar with, residential grade, commercial grade and hospital grade.
The T-shaped ones you talked about are 5-20RAs. The electrical code recognisances them as a 20a receptacle that is allowed to have 15a loads connected.


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## mrb

Dionysus said:


> The electrical code states that you cannot use a 5-15 on a 20-amp circuit. The main exception is with hospital grade, where you MUST use 12awg wire.
> 
> And those cheapo connectors REALLY should not be used with 12awg wire nor on 20a circuits. There are three grades of 5-15s that I am familiar with, residential grade, commercial grade and hospital grade.
> The T-shaped ones you talked about are 5-20RAs. The electrical code recognisances them as a 20a receptacle that is allowed to have 15a loads connected.



there are basically 4 'grades' of these connectors. Residential (cheap hardware store junk), commercial (hubbell Valise or leviton Python), industrial (fed spec) (5266 / 5269 types), and hospital (are avaialble in hospital grade commercial type and hospital grade version of the industrial grade type). There are also some other types such as corrosion resistant which dont really come into play here.

The differences between industrial grade and hospital grade are minor, mainly corrosion resistance and contact retention. You *may* notice a difference in the female after a few years use, but for the most part hospital grade doesnt warrant the increased cost for our industry. 

With regard to what 5-15 and 5-20 can be used where, here is what is code allows:
15a cir:
-single 15a receptacle
-multiple 15a receptacles
20a cir
-single 20a receptacle
-multiple 20a receptacles
-multiple 15a receptacles

The 'T' shaped ones are 5-20R. There is no 5-20R(that I know of) that will not accept a 5-15. Aparrently in canada a 5-20R is referred to as a 5-20RA for some reason. 

The nema designations are -P for male plug, -C for female connector that goes on a cord, and -R for receptacle that goes in the wall.


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## JD

Still waiting for the proper stage lighting connector to be invented!! 

Twist-Lock: Great thing to step on and fall and break you ankle.

Edison: Best left on your home lighting fixture.

2P&G: Looks like something from the 1800/1900's. Best left in Frankenstein's castle or DC theater. 

Look folks, the product density found in Soco is more what is needed. Maybe even the same pins loaded into a shell that can just fit 12/3. A simple locking system like an XLR connector. There's a fortune to be made out there for the company that finally makes them!


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## Dionysus

mrb said:


> there are basically 4 'grades' of these connectors. Residential (cheap hardware store junk), commercial (hubbell Valise or leviton Python), industrial (fed spec) (5266 / 5269 types), and hospital (are avaialble in hospital grade commercial type and hospital grade version of the industrial grade type). There are also some other types such as corrosion resistant which dont really come into play here.
> 
> The differences between industrial grade and hospital grade are minor, mainly corrosion resistance and contact retention. You *may* notice a difference in the female after a few years use, but for the most part hospital grade doesnt warrant the increased cost for our industry.
> 
> With regard to what 5-15 and 5-20 can be used where, here is what is code allows:
> 15a cir:
> -single 15a receptacle
> -multiple 15a receptacles
> 20a cir
> -single 20a receptacle
> -multiple 20a receptacles
> -multiple 15a receptacles
> 
> The 'T' shaped ones are 5-20R. There is no 5-20R(that I know of) that will not accept a 5-15. Aparrently in canada a 5-20R is referred to as a 5-20RA for some reason.
> 
> The nema designations are -P for male plug, -C for female connector that goes on a cord, and -R for receptacle that goes in the wall.



The NEMA designations are essentially used in Canada

Aaah yes I had forgotten about industrial grade, rarely see it in code, and I've installed them too. But I've delt a lot more with hospital grade. The hospital grade is basically just designed to be able to be used with 20a and is designed to be plugged/unplugged often. The Residential grade is NOT meant to be plugged/unplugged often at all. Code stipulates that you must upgrade from the residential grade if anything is going to be plugged/unplugged often.

The 5-20RA is a type of receptacle that accepts standard Edison or the 20a counterpart. The A stands for Alternate. The 5-20R only accepts the 'side pin' 20a while the RA is the true "t" slot.

And yes you can put 15a receptacles on a 20a circuit in certain cases, but there MUST be more than one and it is up to the discretion of the inspection authority (at least in Canada). So don't annoy the inspector if you want to get away with it... Trust me on that one. I deal with inspectors all the time.


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## cprted

Like Dinoysus, I'm also in Canada and at a twist-lock house. In these parts I have actually never run across 2P&G connectors anywhere. I'd say its probably 90% twist-lock in this neck of the woods. To be honest, I had the google 2P&G when I first joined the site to be sure I knew what you guys were talking about.


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## SteveB

JD said:


> Still waiting for the proper stage lighting connector to be invented!!
> 
> T!



Sigh..... Jeez John, I just am getting used to the pleasure of having an all 2P&G house, after 20 years of old-style twist and you want me to switch ?. OMDB !.

Anybody here know what they use in Australia ?. I seem to recall a nifty connector that a male and female in one housing, or some silly thing like that. Curious.

Steve B.


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## Footer

There is that odd connector that Bandit Lites uses, large blue 3 pin thing. Covers on both sides, covers lock together when plugged in. Can't remember its name for the life of me.


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## mrb

Footer said:


> There is that odd connector that Bandit Lites uses, large blue 3 pin thing. Covers on both sides, covers lock together when plugged in. Can't remember its name for the life of me.



CEE-form


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## mrb

Dionysus said:


> The NEMA designations are essentially used in Canada
> 
> Aaah yes I had forgotten about industrial grade, rarely see it in code, and I've installed them too. But I've delt a lot more with hospital grade. The hospital grade is basically just designed to be able to be used with 20a and is designed to be plugged/unplugged often. The Residential grade is NOT meant to be plugged/unplugged often at all. Code stipulates that you must upgrade from the residential grade if anything is going to be plugged/unplugged often.
> 
> The 5-20RA is a type of receptacle that accepts standard Edison or the 20a counterpart. The A stands for Alternate. The 5-20R only accepts the 'side pin' 20a while the RA is the true "t" slot.
> 
> And yes you can put 15a receptacles on a 20a circuit in certain cases, but there MUST be more than one and it is up to the discretion of the inspection authority (at least in Canada). So don't annoy the inspector if you want to get away with it... Trust me on that one. I deal with inspectors all the time.



can you give me a mfgr part number for this 5-20R that will only accept a 5-20 male plug? 

The industrial grade connectors are what is pretty much standard here in the USA for theatrical use where edison is used. Leviton and Hubbell part numbers 5266 for the male and 5269 for the female. They are available in all black for entertainment use. I attached a photo of the black Leviton ones.


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## Spader

Here are a couple of reasons that have been given to me:

Try to connect a twist lock connector in the dark, above your head, while you are on a ladder 20 feet in the air. Stage Pin is just easier that way.

Twist lock connectors are round, so if you have a connector on the ground and an actor makes an entrance without seeing the connector, there is a chance that they will step on the connector and make more of a backwards leap than an entrance. stage pin is rectangular and thus does not roll.


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## Dionysus

mrb said:


> can you give me a mfgr part number for this 5-20R that will only accept a 5-20 male plug?
> 
> The industrial grade connectors are what is pretty much standard here in the USA for theatrical use where edison is used. Leviton and Hubbell part numbers 5266 for the male and 5269 for the female. They are available in all black for entertainment use. I attached a photo of the black Leviton ones.



I'm quite familiar with the 5266 and 5269 (not quite so good with remembering the numbers however).

I know I've not only seen but installed 5-20Rs that will not accept standard 5-15ps... However I have not been able to locate any part numbers as of yet. It is quite reasonable that they don't manufacture them anymore, straying to the 5-20RA style.

Aaah yes I just checked the CEC site...


CSA - CEC Jan 2009 said:


> "The designation for receptacle configuration type 5-20RA ("T-slot") has been revised to 5-20R throughout the Code, and the configuration previously designated as 5-20R is now designated 5-20RA to recognize that this configuration is being phased out. Similarly, the designations for 6-20R and 6-20RA configurations have been interchanged throughout the Code."


I didn't receive that in my list of CEC changes...Good for me to know that *scoff*. lol. I'm too cheap to buy a new code book again after JUST buying one little more than a year ago. Looks like this was the only change I didn't know though.


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## Esoteric

Also looking for the connections in the dark, it is much easier to get your finger in the arc of a twist lock than a stage pin.

Mike


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## Esoteric

Dionysus said:


> As an electrician I do have to say that I don't believe Edisons should ever be used for professional lighting. I've seen it a couple of times, but it scares me. The thought of someone running a 2.4kw load though an orange extension cord makes me cringe. At that 20a rated edisons are expensive and hard to get your hands on.
> 
> Most theatre spaces I've seen in this part of Canada use Twist-lock. They work well (just don't treat them like they are invincible). I love the fact that they lock, and they are actually rated for 20a (well the 20a ones are). But with twist-lock it is IMPOSSIBLE to interface a 15a or 30a connector into a 20a one. There are different designs for twist-lock connectors for a VERY GOOD REASON.
> 
> I've dealt VERY LITTLE with stage-pin connectors, I love the fact that they are flat-ish and are rated. Not to mention the fact that they are only used in one application unlike the others.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think I've ever seen one come apart that was twisted-together correctly. I don't doubt that it is possible, if the pins have been smacked around ALOT and abused and the person didn't make sure it was locked.
> 
> for example during teardowns when cables are being tossed down I always make sure someone is down there to catch the connectors so they don't smack against the floor and get broken (or bent pins).
> 
> And for stagepin, one thing keeps getting said that is important
> 
> 
> Not everyone knows how to do it, or that it has to be done. And with the design of the stagepin connector, if the pins are partially exposed it doesn't take much for it to go BOOM. That's why the pins of a twistlock are oriented in the way they are.



We took out a rig of twistlock, and it was a nightmare. After about a month and a half (probably 24 shows or so) the twist locks began to fail. We spent more time on that tour replacing plugs than anything else.

Mike


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## mrb

Esoteric said:


> We took out a rig of twistlock, and it was a nightmare. After about a month and a half (probably 24 shows or so) the twist locks began to fail. We spent more time on that tour replacing plugs than anything else.
> 
> Mike



how were they failing? Was it broken pins on the males? Or melting females?


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## TimMiller

I commonly use all 3. 
All of my movers except for the ones that use 208, have Edison connectors on them, so they can simply be plugged into the wall. The 208V movers use L6-20 twist locks. All of my par cans have Edison, so they can be plugged in the wall, for simple things, i have soco to Edison fan outs for the bigger shows.
Almost all of the theaters down here have stage pin, along with all of my dimmer racks so i can send them out and they will match up. My dimmers all also have soco outs so i can fan them out to Edison if i am using my par's. I also have lots of stage pin to Edison adapters for connecting movers to dimmers (using true non dim modules of course), along with connecting up specials such as Christmas lights to dimmers.

I hate theaters that have twist locks. My biggest problem is that especially in high schools people dont know that you have to give them a twist, and they end up melting. I have also had a problem of the SO cable slowly working its way out over time, due to the screws coming loose.


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## church

Most of the theatres round here are 20A twistlock, the schools, colleges and univesity theatres use either 20A twistlosk or 15A Edison but mainly edison. I have not seen stage pin except on gear provided by PRG. 

My equipment is configured with 15A edisons although I keep 20A twistlocks for those customers who require them. Most other rental shops are 20A twistlock and 15A edison.

The edisons are great for use in hotel ballrooms, church halls etc where edison outlets are the norm and which provide many customers. 

The problem with orange extension cords is they are only supposed to be used in domestic applications and should not be a factor in choosing a connector on stage or in an industrial setting. Ontario electrical code only allows for "hard" or "extra hard" flexible cable on stage (Rule 44-252, Rule 44-320, rule 44-350 and rule 44-354). Orange, yellow and tinsel cords do not meet these requirements.


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## gordonmcleod

CSA used to insist on type SO cable for extensions which has a thicker oil resistant rubber
The Orange type cable is usually SJ if one is lucky enough to find a rating on it at all or a CSA/ULc stamp


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## Sayen

Just for fun, the first theater I worked in used three different connections in different parts of the house - plain 15amp Edison over the stage, 15amp twistlocks onstage floor, and 20amp twistlocks on the lighting bridge, or something like that. It was a nightmare trying to maintain a healthy stock of quality adapters, and after fighting with those plugs I prefer the 2P&G by far. Much easier to work with in the dark, and no one on campus wants to borrow my lights since they don't have the right connector, and I play dumb when it comes to adapters.


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## Esoteric

mrb said:


> how were they failing? Was it broken pins on the males? Or melting females?



Cable coming out of the plug, smashed plugs (because they are so large they kept getting in the way), broken pins on the males, females coming loose and not gripping anymore, which let the pins slip out, which led to the female plugs melting, etc.

Mike


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## mrb

Esoteric said:


> Cable coming out of the plug, smashed plugs (because they are so large they kept getting in the way), broken pins on the males, females coming loose and not gripping anymore, which let the pins slip out, which led to the female plugs melting, etc.
> 
> Mike



if cable was pulling out of the plug, they werent assembled right (assuming quality plugs)


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## Sony

2P&G (Stage Pin) is by far my favorite connector, mostly for it's ease of use, robustness and ability to lay flat on the ground. I've always had trouble with bent and broken pins on both Edison and Twistlock connectors as well as loose connections. One of the great advantages of Stage Pin is how much more difficult it is to bend pins or cause damage to the connector, also the ability to spread pins to keep good contact is a great advantage. The pins on Stage Pin also seem to be more substantial physically with more surface area for contact which reduces connector resistance and reduces connector tempurature and chances for melting. 

The one disadvantage I believe for Stage Pin is safety and the fact that in curious and playful hands it could be plugged in to a live circuit improperly, leaving one or even two of the pins on the male end of the cable exposed and possibly live. It's this reason that I believe that Stage Pin should only be used in High School, College and Professional environments which are likely to understand that electricity hurts. In Middle School and Elementary School I would definitely suggest Twistlock.


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## mnfreelancer

In both the old middle school that I attended and the "new" middle school I worked in briefly we had L5-20 twist-lock. In my highschool, built in 2001 we had 2P&G and I loved it!

Now, working in the Minneapolis rental market, 5-15 Edison seems to be the norm almost across the board. Dimmer racks I've rented have been 5-15, our lights are all 5-15 and most of the production company conventionals are 5-15. One production company we work with frequently does, however, use L6-20 for their 208V movers and 15K projectors. Motors use twist lock too, of course.


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## mrb

I remember in high school (mid 90s) our theater had twistlocks, but they were the old non-nema 20amp ones, where the tang on the ground pin stuck out instead of being turned in. Those were a nightmare since A they were impossible to find, and B 90% of the inventory was the old style ones with bakelite housings that would crack when dropped on the ground exposing live parts.


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## waynehoskins

2PG all the way.

In college we had L5-20 Twist everywhere. Those six years made me hate Twist for lighting applications (L6 for mover constant 208 is fine though .. or less bad, one or the other). All of the reasons everybody's said against Twist I agree with. I lost count of how many cables I reterminated and how many bad connectors I threw away.


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## church

My favourite plug is actually the 15A plug used in the U.K. especially the Duraplug version which is made from rubber and is virtually indestructable. Lots of nice features including partially insulated Live and Neutral pins and there is plenty of brass in the pins so they never bend.


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## TimMiller

That does look like a very good connector. Makes me think of what would happen if a edison and a stage pin were to mate .


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## Sony

church said:


> My favourite plug is actually the 15A plug used in the U.K. especially the Duraplug version which is made from rubber and is virtually indestructable. Lots of nice features including partially insulated Live and Neutral pins and there is plenty of brass in the pins so they never bend.



That picture is odd, I've never seen round pin plugs in the UK...and I'm writing this from my Hotel in London England right now. You sure that's the 15A UK Plug? I'm looking at mine right now and all the pins are rectangular.

EDIT: Nevermind, the 13A plugs are rectangular, the 15A plugs are round. Such a huge change for just 2 amps, you would think they would just boost the rating to 20A and have a more versatile plug.


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## Footer

Sony said:


> =Such a huge change for just 2 amps, you would think they would just boost the rating to 20A and have a more versatile plug.



These are also the same people that think 50 cycle is a good idea.


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## fredthe

Footer said:


> These are also the same people that think 50 cycle is a good idea.


Not to mention 240v mains. Which is probably why they pay more attention to plug design and safety... 240 hurts more than 120.


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## gafftapegreenia

I'm not even gonna start on voltage...


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## avkid

I seem to be having power problems.


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## church

The 13A plug shown in the picture has an internal fuse under the red cover. When you pull out the cover the fuse comes with it. The fuses are available in different amp sizes to allow the correct fuse for the load. The outlets also include a spring operated shutter. The ground pin is longer than the others and it operates the shutter to allow the live and neutral pins to enter the socket - stops kids poking fingers and things in. The 15A plug does not include a fuse - there is also a smaller 5A version. These plugs as far as I know have only been used on stage since the 13A plug was introduced in the 1960s along with the Ring Main wiring requirements for outlets. The plugs are rugged and the nice thing is that you can run three 1kw fixtures through them or six Source 4s with the 575W lamp

Personally having lived in the UK and Canada I would rather use 240V circuits with half the current than 120V circuits with double the current for the same load. Less problems with the connections and less I2R. Both 120V and 240V kill you if you do not follow safe work practices.


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## avkid

I don't think you looked hard enough....
The outlet is a New Zealand plug.


It's supposed to be amusing.


----------



## church

I got the joke the U.K. - a 13A fused U.K. plug and the New Zealand/Australia outlet strip.


----------



## willbb123

Just shove it in, It will work... 









kidding.... Please dont...


----------



## Sony

willbb123 said:


> Just shove it in, It will work...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> kidding.... Please dont...



That's what she said?



Sorry...I had to   
Straight off a 7.5 hour flight from London to Boston...I'm a little loopy right now, ignore everything I say


----------



## Soxred93

JD said:


> Still waiting for the proper stage lighting connector to be invented!!
> 
> [...]
> 
> A simple locking system like an XLR connector. There's a fortune to be made out there for the company that finally makes them!



The closest I can think of is PowerCon. Not quite the XLR connector, but it's sorta close...

(oh yeah, sorry for the thread hijack...  )


----------



## mstaylor

The theatres in my area use mostly stagepin but some of it is twistlock. I remember years ago, the newest theatre was a twistlock house. I needed to borrow some instruments for a show. They said I could use them as long as I didn't pull the plugs off. My choice was to buy a bunch of females and make adapters or just change the plugs out. Since I put the originals on I did the easy thing. 
I don't really care in the twist/2pin w/ground fight. I find twistlocks easier to assemble but stagepin more convinent to use. I have never seen the failure rate others have mentioned. I have seen guys not twist them which will get them an ear full.


----------



## Dionysus

Esoteric said:


> We took out a rig of twistlock, and it was a nightmare. After about a month and a half (probably 24 shows or so) the twist locks began to fail. We spent more time on that tour replacing plugs than anything else.
> 
> Mike



There is a theatre very near here (I used to work there) that has been using the same twist-lock connectors since the 80s with no problems at all. They are still all original. And it's not like they are driving 500w loads. The majority of fixtures are 2k, there are two-fers, and it's a rep house so things are being plugged in and out all the time.

I really don't understand how after a month and a half there are failures.

Are twist connectors just made on the cheap in the USA?


----------



## cdub260

Dionysus said:


> I really don't understand how after a month and a half there are failures.
> 
> Are twist connectors just made on the cheap in the USA?



It really has more to do with an attitude that a lot of people have towards anything they themselves did not pay for. They didn't buy it, therefore they can abuse it without consequences and unfortunately, twistlock connectors, due to their pin design are simply more vulnerable to damage when they're abused. When properly taken care of, twistlocks will last every bit as long as a 2P&G. In my experience, a 2P&G subjected to the same abuse will survive considerably longer. Unfortunately in many venues, especially college and high school theatres, equipment is subject to abuse beyond normal wear and tear.


----------



## frostgfx

I am currently refurbishing ETC Pars, Parnels, and Source Four and SF Jr. fixtures all lamped with 575w long life bulbs and L5-20 Plugs. All cable is 12/3 SOOW cable and I have only cracked one strain relief with too much torque on the screw in a power drill.

My ETC dimmer racks have Socopex and L5-20R, so I can use Socopex fan outs with 2P&G females. I also have commercial twofers/threefers all L5-20 Twistlock.

As long as you are using quality materials i.e. SOOW Cable for indoor/outdoor use rated for 20A, Hubbell and Leviton Connectors, and you take your time in making your fixture ends and cables, you shouldn't have to much to worry about. Treat your equipment with care and it will reward you with consistent operation.


----------



## gafftapegreenia

frostgfx said:


> Treat your equipment with care and it will reward you with consistent operation.



Truer words have yet to be spoken.


----------



## nic1993

I'm personally a bigger fan of twist lock, when your highschool cheaps out on cables runs that require heavy tension on the dimmer packs, having stagepin connectors falling out isn't fantastic by any means. I just find twist locks to be much safer, and they save TONS of money instead of having to gaf together your connections just to keep them from coming apart!


> There is a theatre very near here (I used to work there) that has been using the same twist-lock connectors since the 80s with no problems at all. They are still all original. And it's not like they are driving 500w loads. The majority of fixtures are 2k, there are two-fers, and it's a rep house so things are being plugged in and out all the time.



Mine too!


----------



## 65535

I would love to see PowerCON connectors become the standard, positive locking, sleek small connectors that deliver 20A. Then again I would be happy having PowerCON connectors used for power tools and everything else, imagine having the ability to have custom power cords for EVERYTHING you do.

12/3 SO for EVERYTHING and EVERYONE!

And we used Stage Pins in HS and in college.


----------



## rochem

65535 said:


> I would love to see PowerCON connectors become the standard, positive locking, sleek small connectors that deliver 20A. Then again I would be happy having PowerCON connectors used for power tools and everything else, imagine having the ability to have custom power cords for EVERYTHING you do.


 
I couldn't disagree more. While I do love PowerCON connectors for their size, locking, and ease of use, I would hate to have them as my main plug/receptacle. Biggest reason is that PowerCONs have no breaking capacity and are not designed to be connected or disconnected while under load. I'm sure we've all pulled the plug on an instrument without waiting for the board op to kill the channel, but this can cause arcing and is a big no-no with PowerCON (although I only have a vague idea as to why, anyone care to explain?). Also, there are separate connectors for power in (blue) and power out (grey) - as these are denoted by color, this also means your cabling will be much more visible than if you had used a black 2P&G connector. And finally, unlike many (most?) other connectors, PowerCON connectors are only made by one manufacturer (based in Liechtenstein - now who can find that on a map? ), meaning that the pricing and availability of these connectors could fluctuate. 

Also, from an error-proofing standpoint, I like having different connectors for different things. Sure, I could have my dimmers, constant power, and 208V power all using the same connectors if I really wanted to. But what happens when some helpful stagehand plugs the Source Four into the 208V power and the VL3500 into the dimmer? A lot of rental houses and theatres will use L6-20 connectors exclusively for all their 208V power to avoid confusion. I know of at least one large rental house that uses L5-20 for dimmer circuits and 2P&G for constant power, like LED fixtures, to further avoid confusion.


----------



## derekleffew

rochem said:


> ...I know of at least one large rental house that uses L5-20 for dimmer circuits and 2P&G for constant power, like LED fixtures, to further avoid confusion.


If anything, I think that should be the other way around. When I see a 2P&G, I assume dimmed circuit.

And putting a big, honkin' L5-20 on an LED PAR that draws one amp seems silly to me. Why not go all out and use a blue CEEform?


----------



## avkid

rochem said:


> I couldn't disagree more. While I do love PowerCON connectors for their size, locking, and ease of use, I would hate to have them as my main plug/receptacle. Biggest reason is that PowerCONs have no breaking capacity and are not designed to be connected or disconnected while under load.


 You are no longer correct.



Live Sound: Neutrik Powercon True1 Connector Makes Stateside Debut At Winter Namm 2011 - Pro Sound Web


----------



## rochem

derekleffew said:


> If anything, I think that should be the other way around. When I see a 2P&G, I assume dimmed circuit.


 
I may be mistaken. I thought I remembered that this rental house had L5s on all their conventionals, but it's been a while since I've seen a package from them.


----------



## MNicolai

nic1993 said:


> I'm personally a bigger fan of twist lock, when your highschool cheaps out on cables runs that require heavy tension on the dimmer packs, having stagepin connectors falling out isn't fantastic by any means. I just find twist locks to be much safer, and they save TONS of money instead of having to gaf together your connections just to keep them from coming apart!



That problem could easily be resolved with a pin splitter. 2P&G connectors, when maintained, should not come unplugged accidentally under normal conditions. People who need to use gaff to keep their connections together have probably not maintained their connectors, which is often the result of users banging their connectors on the ground when connectors are not mated. This is why it's a good practice after a coiling a cable to connect the male and female ends of it together such that the pins cannot be damaged when the cables are being moved around.


rochem said:


> Biggest reason is that PowerCONs have no breaking capacity and are not designed to be connected or disconnected while under load. I'm sure we've all pulled the plug on an instrument without waiting for the board op to kill the channel, but this can cause arcing and is a big no-no with PowerCON (although I only have a vague idea as to why, anyone care to explain?).



The design of the PowerCON connector does not dissipate enough heat when a live load of 20A is broken. The act of disconnecting the connector while such a large current is going through it causes a momentary arc between the connector contacts and the receptacle contacts (something most of us have seen happen with 5-15 and 2P&G connectors). The result of arc is a sudden buildup of heat on the contacts, and then the contacts become charred and the surrounding plastic of the connector may melt.


----------



## derekleffew

rochem said:


> I may be mistaken. I thought I remembered that this rental house had L5s on all their conventionals, but it's been a while since I've seen a package from them.


What did they use for ML power? I have nightmares just thinking about working in a shop that that regularly used both L5-20 and L6-20 cable.

[Christie Lites gets around it by using L5-20 (conv.) and L6-15 (ML) cables, which still confuses stagehands!]


MNicolai said:


> ...The act of disconnecting the connector while such a large current is going through it causes a momentary arc between the connector contacts and the receptacle contacts (something most of us have seen happen with 5-15 and 2P&G connectors). The result of arc is a sudden buildup of heat on the contacts, and then the contacts become charred and the surrounding plastic of the connector may melt.


One would think one should expect to see an arc when MAKING under load, rather than BREAKING under load. (Not that I've _ever_ done it, but if I had, that would be my experience. )


----------



## epimetheus

derekleffew said:


> One would think one should expect to see an arc when MAKING under load, rather than BREAKING under load. (Not that I've _ever_ done it, but if I had, that would be my experience. )


 
Nope, you get larger arcing when breaking the current flow as opposed to making it. The reason is that when making the connector the contacts are moving toward each other, thus the air gap distance is being minimized. 600V and lower voltages are not high enough potential (generally speaking) the jump an air gap without being provoked. Thus, you may get an arc when making a connector, but it's going to be short lived because the contacts will be made very shortly after the arc begins. When breaking a connector, the arc forms as soon as the contacts part. Once the arc is initiated, it can span a larger gap than it takes to create an arc when 2 contacts are separated by a fixed distance.

I hope that was a coherent explanation, I'm not totally awake yet this morning.


----------



## epimetheus

avkid said:


> You are no longer correct.
> 
> 
> Live Sound: Neutrik Powercon True1 Connector Makes Stateside Debut At Winter Namm 2011 - Pro Sound Web


 
Of course, it doesn't appear to be backward compatible. And rochem has a point about the single manufacturer problem. A couple months ago, certain powercon models were very hard to come by due to a factory redesign (and possible retooling I guess). Now they've finally introduced a connector capable of breaking under load, though it seems it's only rated for 16A, which is going to reek havoc on overcurrent protection stateside unless they can get it up to 20A. If this does take off you're going to have new and old powercon in existence and that will be a great mess. Now I'll need powercon to powercon adapters, in both directions = FAIL.

And BTW, I really do like the powercon/speakon system, so I'm not just a hater. It just seems it could have been better executed.


----------



## derekleffew

epimetheus said:


> Nope, you get larger arcing when breaking the current flow as opposed to making it. The reason is that when making the connector the contacts are moving toward each other, thus the air gap distance is being minimized. ...


Makes perfect sense when I think about carbon-arc spotlights. But I've never _noticed_ an arc when un-hot-plugging a 120V conventional, whereas I usually get a small arc when plugging in while energized.


----------



## tjrobb

From what I can remember, 277V is the lowest you can get with a self-sustaining arc. IE, unless the gap gets larger a 277V fault is a bad arc welder. Now, most theatres aren't running 480Y/277V to the stage for lighting use, but maybe for a motor...


----------



## len

I voted for Edison, because that's what makes the most sense for me. We don't work in theater, we work in hotels, wedding factories, art galleries, lofts, etc., and there's nothing but edison. It just makes sense to be able to use what's available, and not worry about where that adapter went. 
On the rare occasion when we rent stuff that has 2P&G I find that the pins aren't ever split correctly, which often causes the adapter to fall off. So we end up taping the adapter on, which is more time wasted.


----------



## chausman

I will add one thing to the PowerCon debate, they will roll around when stepped on or something is set on them. Stage Pin won't. I prefer Stage Pin but that is mainly because that is all I've used.


----------



## ship

church said:


> The problem with orange extension cords is they are only supposed to be used in domestic applications and should not be a factor in choosing a connector on stage or in an industrial setting. Ontario electrical code only allows for "hard" or "extra hard" flexible cable on stage (Rule 44-252, Rule 44-320, rule 44-350 and rule 44-354). Orange, yellow and tinsel cords do not meet these requirements.


 
But orange extension cords are hard service.


----------



## ship

Away from the plug used on 208v/240v on this reply. Hope it answers some questions about plug history in being long but I think important so as to clear the air or frame the discussion some.

On Edison, the same thing plug wise between the 15Amp and 20Amp version. Industrial or Commercial grade are required. At one point I did wire up a bunch of adaptors with 5-20 Edison plugs for a show. This confused the people on site with years of experience in doing shows. Instead of reading the plug’s rating or even trying to see if the 20A. plug would fit into the outlets... they just went to the local Ace Hardware and spent a few hours in re-wiring the adaptors I made. Unless you have a closed faculty where you can insure the training, 5-20 plugs are a bad idea unless for something really special like the shop air compressor when not 208/240v. And even than with supervision.

Given it’s the same plug and under specific industrial/commercial plug type guidelines, I read once perhaps as a proposed code change that for stage/production use it was to be possible to use the 5-15 Edison for 20 Amp usage which would be smart. Still as pointed out in past debates, there is currently no rule or waver for such usage. The receptacle should still be 20A and commercial grade no matter the case. While it is still perfectly permissible to use an Edison plug for theater/production usage, they because of the pointed out problems are not preferred for other than say small time use.

I want my Aluminum V.1 Pin Splitter back! Loaned it out once and never got it back in someone thinking this thing I bought like 20 years ago now, in when I bought it - making like eight bucks an hour and providing my own tools was their’s by way of it should be provided to them for free by way of me it would seem. Concept of professionalism and or buy your own personal tools... apparently never came to mind for who took mine. Seriously missing my stolen one. The V.1 was stronger in just last week having to replace a broken V.2, and it also gapped 60A plugs. (Cannot imagine breaking the plastic V.2 version but I have a broken one some gorilla somehow broke.) Plus the brushes on the V.2 unless you spend a lot of time with 1/4" steel pencil stock on a drill in wearing down the brush will scratch the heck out of your plug in shining it up but it in being scratched provide no more continuity. The added brush to the V.2 is way too aggressive - some time with Crocus cloth on the pin would be much better for continuity. Better with a stronger pinsplitter that didn’t attempt to shine the pin up by way of scratching the heck out of it with deep scratching. Much less the V.1 did gapping on 60A plugs that would be useful to me. Told a tail about the discontinuation of the V.1 about given it was aluminum someone got electrocuted from it. Hard to believe in why they are now plastic but possible in having heard it from a few sources. Urr.. Gee male end of the plug worked on in getting electrocuted... other problems besides the material of the tool in working on a live male plug? None the less V.1 gone to the market now unless someone wants to introduce a better V.3 some day. Despise my current V.2 pinsplitter. While it is somewhat rare a pin needs spreading... it does happen and don’t ask about the grounded Union threefers that I once modified with new ground hole slightly off center in bending pins so as to fit somewhat. Tolerances mostly these days are I believe USITT standard and should no longer be a problem.


See page 48 of the Wikki Chicago Stage Lighting 1916 Catalogue and you will see that stage pin/slip has been around since before 1916 as with a bunch of other interesting or dangerous types. I have in fact used a 30A Stage plug before from the same page... very easy to electrocute yourself yet commonly used. Kind of a shame that I didn’t get a sample of the angled other version of Edison I call Crows Foot but not sure if accurate in term. 1926 there was another version also in use backstage. Beyond the interesting style of it, both socket and plug used porcelain bodies. Imagine a porcelain plug - was in use. (Love this catalogue, hope more people post old catalogues on-line to learn from.)

Back to why twist lock verses stage pin and history. Back in the day - probably 70's and others would know better than I, stage pins got grounded. But there was still the problem of before pinsplitters... still had problems with stage pin plugs coming loose. Plus there was for the while improved stage pin plug the better design of the flag ring terminal, but there wasn’t really any tool on the market designed to crimp such a thing. Sure I have my Vatco #1900 which does it by way of wrong gauge, and or if you grind off the cutting jaws of the Klien #1005 or #1006 as with most “Stakon” type crimp tools they will also work. Tool modification is not easy or normal. Never been a proper crimp tool invented for the flag ring terminal. Given that... many used Vise Grips and other crushing instead of displacement means for crimping their terminals. That or heated solder pot made stranded wire now tinned and solid until heated up by way of short. This in wrapping the wire around the terminal. Also, there was a sort of wire encapsulating ferrule/washer that’s long gone from the market.

In other words.. The industry standard Union stage pin plug was having problems with ability to make a proper wiring connection - plus they were also dangerous by way of jack knife as best solution for spreading the pins when noticed at all in being problematic or resistive to load. As an alternate method the twist lock plug came out. About 1975 where I work went into business and it was the 15A L5-15 mini-twist lock as popular alternative to the problematic stage pin back than. Worked well for them given the Hubbel plug that is round and takes to marking it easily and fairly in-expensive. 15A was limited though thus the L5-20 I think during that like ten year period. Concept being it was locking thus wouldn’t come un-plugged but still wasn’t Edison that with use becomes loose in holding onto the plug in receptacle amongst other problems. That said, and given the same technology, only twisted... the twist lock especially 15A version also with use in receptacle also loosens up. No better than the stage pin in the end except that it’s easier to fix or change a plug than the panel mount receptacle.

In the mean time, Union Connector came out with the locking stage pin plug so as to save market share. Forget if it was on the ground or neutral - believe it ground but there was a hook to the stage pin that hooked into the outlet. This did the thing of the twist lock plug in concept in that it wouldn’t come loose. Great save except that mis-spread pins were still mis-spread pins in not conducting well and while they wouldn’t fall out, they were still not conducting well. Also that the lock hook more often than not bent or otherwise didn’t work well - lived thru some of them. Such a concept also relied on the theory that such a lock would be plugged into a receptacle that was also using that system. Given most didn’t... they would not lock with them. Unless your entire system was designed about the locking, it wouldn’t work and would be a pain in the rear to use. Gotta see such a locking plug to understand what a bad idea it was.

Split pins as opposed to solid pins.... Gotta understand that concept about here to understand twist lock also verses slip/stage pin. Slotted pins so when under load and by way of expansion and contraction - if under a high load you can remove the plug if solid. Were under high load and the metal expands, you would not be able to remove the plug. Want to easily remove the plug from it’s socket if under danger conditions. Twist locks - assuming the more robust 20A versions which take up more space - still have that problem of in panic you have to pre-think the twist as opposed to just yank it out. The 15A versions in receptacle and with time with the 20A as with Edison while they loosen up not a factor for twist lock in easily removed during danger. That in addition to larger size and larger surface area of the stage/slip pin.

Stage pins are much like CeeForm type pin and sleeve by way of surface area if properly used for contact. Much more robust in not bending when dropped and smaller in size. Really once Advanced Devices / Bates came out with their plug in the 90's that solved the problems with stage pin and made the temporary fix of twist lock obsolete. Ever try to remove a vapor locked weather tight boot from a twist lock? I did on a few instances and shorted between poles in breaking the connection and lock. This beyond the panic and not thinking of twisting to remove.

Back to stage pin.. Been many concepts in improved stage pin - many new sources for it, Bates/Marinco still mostly in advancement given you don’t have to friction tape the heck out of a cord leads the way with clones to them. (Such knockoffs don’t often have the same parts for tolerance and quality or play nice with the Bates part.) Still though advancement that works. Leviton vendor had to admit his version was not as good as an example during a meeting.

Back to stage pin/slip as the more mostly used 120v plug after a time in the past of turbulence that many places bought into a system. L5-20 isn’t bad, just not the standard. There is also the Non-Nema version out there which was for a time popular and now problematic.

“I have also had a problem of the SO cable slowly working its way out over time, due to the screws coming loose.” Curious in concept. More so than SJ cable in doing the same due to expansion/contraction of the conductors under the load in now seeming like someone didn’t tighten down the terminal enough, but instead the wire just settled? Often after a first use at times high amperage types of cable needs another look at or they will show the same symptoms. Outer jacket of the cable is not a factor in insulation - same gauge of wire.

Forget about America going Euro plugs I hope in it seemingly doing so anyway. Fricken French Vacations for both Socapex and Neutrik. That said, the Neutrik Powercon is very popular and while hard to get in bulk on time for a need, is hard to say it’s a bad plug. Won’t say bad or good about it in on the fence - just hate it’s constant need for ever more fixtures requiring it. A verses B etc problems in not simple. CeeForm also popular and a thing I often have to import at the last minute in paying a lot more. Snap locking covers to them often are in the way of the fixtures designed about them. Problem for me in necessity to replace the “missing covers” that were removed so as to fit into the fixture = this each time the plug is used. Never ending process a CeeForm missing it’s female cover has to have it’s cover replaced... yet in the next usage such a cover is removed or cut off in being in the way of mating to the fixture. Stuff like won’t physically fit or in the way of the DMX plugs plugging in. Won’t physically bend to where it needs to..

Having to express ship in more Powercons in finding not just one but two sources so as to ensure I get them on time. Domestic CeeForm brands while more reliable in shipping are too expensive. French vacations and or shipping too un-reliable. Such plugs are not a good answer to powering up fixtures.

This much less the screws used on Powercon and most CeeForm are Pozi type which is an insane screw drive system to use. Stripps easier, requires a special tool to properly drive and really bad design for a driver.


----------



## natebish

mnfreelancer said:


> In both the old middle school that I attended and the "new" middle school I worked in briefly we had L5-20 twist-lock. In my highschool, built in 2001 we had 2P&G and I loved it!


 

lucky you, at my highschool, (in saint paul) we have all L5-20. so when ever i try to rent something i have to make adaptors, since none exist in my theatre. then again my theatre has no cable at all.


----------



## mstaylor

A local college has all twistlock. I was hired to run their shows but with student help. The first show was a national dance show and the had side booms, all stage pin. I got the fun job of pulling the males off all the strip lights and rewiring their lights to make them work in the floor pockets. The student labor, not one showed up, talk about a scramble.


----------



## 65535

mstaylor said:


> A local college has all twistlock. I was hired to run their shows but with student help. The first show was a national dance show and the had side booms, all stage pin. I got the fun job of pulling the males off all the strip lights and rewiring their lights to make them work in the floor pockets. The student labor, not one showed up, talk about a scramble.


 
I would have seen if any local rental houses had Twist-stage. I know in our theatre we have many dozens of them.


----------



## ship

Don't know if it helps anyone, but called today about my order locally thru a supplier expected today a day late about my Neutrik Powercon plugs on order. Only of the In-line 150 of the A and 100 of the B version. The plugs were expeted in on the 23rd to my supplier and a day later for me locally.

My sales person for the Powercon plugs told me today that he has no idea of where my plugs were. Seems today the entire Neutrik company was taking inventory.... don't know how many days it will last, but until it's done there will be no response form Neutrik as a company. Sorry... if not on vacation.... where are my plugs that you said you woul have... we are taking inventory at the moment... contact us in a few days once done.. (I really mean this as a response to some Powercons I ordered weeks ago as a response to where they are.)

This as opposed to the Socapex #337 stuff I ordered up almost six months ago now - and even given overcharged exhange rate... still yet to get. Imagine like two dollars per pin for a 37 pin plug in just fixing each time they fail as often. Given hundreds of such gear in stock - stuck with it.

Main point for me.... someone want to make their first million dollars... do the domestic Powercon. Yes as pointed out as with Soco stuff in me going molded Soco that it would destroy, you un-plug it under load and you just spent/wasted a few hundred dollars. Someone that gets a product on the market that can match production needs and not have vacation or inventory problems in shipping... and with a price that isn't too much more on the other hand will make money. Euro CeeForm even as some form of standard... domesticly made for such plugs but not economical at this point.

Luckily I have another week to get my plugs... but still and really- because your company is taking inventory, the sale person won't take a phone call? What taking count of widgets personally? This much less when I take inventoy, I tend to work harder in getting all the stock I should need to count get out of the way.

Where's my Powercons? Sorry, they are in inventory mode and while expected to ship by the 23rd, - like a month after the order... they are currently in Inventory mode so there will not be a response. Them sales people are actively counting pins instead of flying a desk. Yep... no resonse until the corporate inventory is done about my missing Powercons. This much less my literally six months and more late Socapex plug parts thru two suppliers. This beyond prices going up, I had no choice and only wated my parts.


Off topic but where you can, stay domestic in supplier.


----------



## DELO72

lieperjp said:


> Why does the theatre use 2P&G? What are the advantages? It would seem that either the Edison (for it's common-ness?) or the Twist-Lock (safety - won't come apart) would have more advantages.
> 
> This is something I've been wondering for a while now.



Edison is only 15A, so not capable of taking the load required by 20A dimmers.

Stage Pin is useful due to the flat shape. Very easy to carpet/tape over it, unlike Twist-lok. Twist-lok is great because it locks, so you don't have to worry about the connectors pulling free. The downside to Twist-lok is it's shape and the white part of the plug which is more noticable, depending on the location, than the black stagepin connectors.


----------



## gafftapegreenia

DELO72 said:


> Edison is only 15A, so not capable of taking the load required by 20A dimmers.


 
Here's the problem that still bugs me: Whats the difference between a 15A and a 20A Edison connector besides the fact that one blade is rotated 90 degrees? Is there more copper in the 20A blades?


----------



## DuckJordan

gafftapegreenia said:


> Here's the problem that still bugs me: Whats the difference between a 15A and a 20A Edison connector besides the fact that one blade is rotated 90 degrees? Is there more copper in the 20A blades?


 

I believe its a more pure copper in the blades but don't quote me on it.
sent from my Droid incredible using tapatalk.


----------



## Sony

gafftapegreenia said:


> Here's the problem that still bugs me: Whats the difference between a 15A and a 20A Edison connector besides the fact that one blade is rotated 90 degrees? Is there more copper in the 20A blades?


 
As far as I know there is NO difference, the only reason there are two different Edison plugs for 15a and 20a connections is to prevent someone for plugging a 20a peice of equipment into a plug that is only protected by a 15a circuit breaker or fuse. This is because a piece of equipment that pulls 20 amps may still take a while to overload and trip a 15a thermal-magnetic circuit breaker. It could take long enough that if there were a poor connection somewhere in the circuit that a fire could start before the breaker actually trips. 15a circuits are much more common in homes than 20a circuits (outside of your kitchen and bathrooms) and therefore you need a way to prevent your average homeowner from plugging a 20a appliance into a 15a outlet. The prongs on the plug itself are no different other than the 90 degree rotation of the neutral prong. 

In modern commercial buildings all wall receptacles are required to be a minimum of 20 amps so the difference between the two becomes pretty much pointless. This is why you can plug a 15a plug into a 20a receptacle but you cannot plug a 20a plug into a 15a receptacle. Because since nearly everything is wired with a 15a plug these days, only allowing a 20a plug in a 20a receptacle would require an ungodly amount of ether adapters or second receptacles in all buildings, driving up building costs.


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## MNicolai

DuckJordan said:


> I believe its a more pure copper in the blades but don't quote me on it.



Just like Monster Cables have better copper than standard cables and are thusly worth the 500% markup?


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## DuckJordan

MNicolai said:


> Just like Monster Cables have better copper than standard cables and are thusly worth the 500% markup?


 
While I don't agree with monster cables being the costly things they are, they do however use a higher percentage of copper compared to other elements inside of the copper ore.

Not saying they do but thats the theory behind it.


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## DMXpro

Footer said:


> There is that odd connector that Bandit Lites uses, large blue 3 pin thing. Covers on both sides, covers lock together when plugged in. Can't remember its name for the life of me.



It's a 16 Amp connector called the 2P+E, based in the IEC 60309 standard in Europe. Rated for 230V, and it's the standard lighting connector in the UK and Europe--I see it as their version of 2P&G.


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## Chris15

This is a thread that had laid dormant for over a year...

No one calls IEC60309 connector by that name. They are Ceeform after one of the pioneering brands.

Available in various voltage ranges (which DO NOT intermate) and pin configurations.
A vastly superior connection system to many of the standard electrical arrangements used globally. (In my humble opinion of course)

Basically:
Yellow for single phase 115V nominal places
Blue for three phase 115V (200V), single phase 230V
Red for three phase 230V (400V)


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## DMXpro

Chris15 said:


> No one calls IEC60309 connector by that name. They are Ceeform after one of the pioneering brands.
> 
> )



Kind of like how 2P&G is 2P&G, but everyone usually calls it stage pin? (Or how NEMA 5-15 is normally referred to as "Edison"?)

Also, I said 2p+e to differentiate between other CEEform connectors, since the 2P+E is most commonly used in stage lighting in the UK/Europe.


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## Chris15

Dunno, never seen a "stage pin" to know.


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## Footer

Chris15 said:


> This is a thread that had laid dormant for over a year...



And the comment was made over 3 years ago... back when I used to commonly see Bandit gear. I have not seen a Bandit rig in years.


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## BGW

*Why stage pin/Bates/2P+G connectors?*

The 2P+G plug is the most commonly used theatrical connector in the United States. My question is: Why?

My understanding is that the 2P+G plug has supposed benfits for theaters, namely cost and durability (the pins being split to be able to be adjusted for wear, etc.). However, it is my opinion that this plug is also susceptible to the most number of problems. 

Here's what I've come up with:

1. Up until the most recent styles, these connectors had very poor strain relief/clamping abilities. 
2. The same adjustable pins that are supposed to provide long life and good connections make the plugs very vulnerable to problems from lack of maintenance (they seem to be fine if properly maintained, but are not foolproof like Edison and twist lock connectors)
3. Ugly and bulky, but that's just my opinion
4. Harder to obtain (you're not going to find them at hardware stores or most local parts houses)
5. Nonstandard shape and size causes problems with using standard electrical junction boxes and plates/covers. 

I'm a big fan of the Edison plug, but I can understand some impracticalities with using them in theaters. The big issue is that you can plug anything into them, which is a mixed blessing. Anyone could plug a computer or something completely inappropriate into dimmer circuits without even knowing. 

Then we have the L5-20. Why isn't this standard? Locking plugs are amazing, they won't fall out or get loose, you can't mistake them with an Edison, and the connectors generally grip the cable very well and are very durable. The only downside I'm aware of is cost. 

I'm eager to hear your explanations and opinions. I'm just a youngun and a relative noob in the theater world, so I'd love to learn about this.


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## zmb

*Re: Why stage pin/Bates/2P+G connectors?*


BGW said:


> Then we have the L5-20. Why isn't this standard? Locking plugs are amazing, they won't fall out or get loose, you can't mistake them with an Edison, and the connectors generally grip the cable very well and are very durable. The only downside I'm aware of is cost.



Those are even bulkier than 2P&G, and are the hardest to assemble. While the do cost the most, they can be easily found at a hardware store.


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## GoboMan

My theatre is all Edison connections in our electrics system. Because of this, I have had to spend an extra bit of time when plotting lights for each show on power distribution and which lights can safely be paired into one dimmer. Many times, I have had to rearrange the dimmer modules in the Sensor racks to accommodate the way each different light plot is laid out. And despite these extra tasks, I have had many occurrences in which the breakers on some dimmer modules have tripped and I have had to figure out a new cabling/instrument orientation for the plot. Pretty frustrating at times, especially knowing that I probably wouldn't have to put up with these setbacks if everything was Stage Pin.


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## BGW

GoboMan said:


> My theatre is all Edison connections in our electrics system. Because of this, I have had to spend an extra bit of time when plotting lights for each show on power distribution and which lights can safely be paired into one dimmer. Many times, I have had to rearrange the dimmer modules in the Sensor racks to accommodate the way each different light plot is laid out. And despite these extra tasks, I have had many occurrences in which the breakers on some dimmer modules have tripped and I have had to figure out a new cabling/instrument orientation for the plot. Pretty frustrating at times, especially knowing that I probably wouldn't have to put up with these setbacks if everything was Stage Pin.



I'm a little confused as to how stage pin plugs would make that better, it just sounds as if there are too many circuits per dimmer and not enough dimmers...


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## gafftapegreenia

I have probably seen as many melted 2P&G connectors as I have 5-15's. The only reason I haven't seen as many melted locking connectors is that I encounter those far less often.

On the issue of contact: With 2P&G connectors, one is reliant upon the MALE connector to have the proper tension in its pins to ensure good contact. In Straight Blade and Locking connectors, we are reliant upon the FEMALE connector to have the proper spring tension in its contacts in order to make reliable contact. When a 2P&G starts to make poor contact, it's pins can be split, thus extending its service life. When an Edison or Locking receptacle loses tension, it is finished, and must be replaced. In my experiences, melted 2P&G's are far more often caused by loose wiring/improper termination that they are by poor contact. Edison & Twist connector failures, on the other hand, seem to be more often caused by poor contact tension, in addition to loose wires. 

EVERY connector type, no matter the style, should be periodically inspected. This is just good practice. EVERY connector has a finite service life, nothing lasts forever. 

As for strain relief, most store bought 5-15 connectors, especially the economically priced ones (the ones low budget institutions are most likely to purchase) DO NOT readily accept 12/3 SOOW. GOOD, heavy duty, 5-15 connectors cost almost as much as Locking connectors. Strain relief on 2R&G connectors is not a new thing, however, it has almost always been in the form of a reversible insert that is readily lost after the package has been opened, as opposed to the adjustable style on most Edison and Twist connectors. I have seen many examples of proper strain relief assemblies on the old Union square body connectors, but only when their original install was an an instrument whip instead of a cable. 

So, your mileage may vary, these are just my experiences that have influenced my opinions.


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## JD

Well, there are some advantages to 2P&G:

1) They are rated at 20 amps, so they can be used off a 2.4kw dimmer. (Standard Edison is rated at 15 amps and should not be used on a 2.4kw dimmer.)
2) The square shape makes it harder to trip and fall if you step on one.
3) It defines the system as "lighting" so it does not get confused with stage or audio power.
4) They seem to melt down less often then the L5-20
5) The pins CAN be re-sprung 

Edison and twist lock connectors can and do lose tension but can not usually be fixed, thus burn. I am not solidly in any of the camps. When I did this professionally, I used 2P&G. Now that I do it as a retirement hobby, I use Edison, but all my dimmers are 1.2kw. Twist locks, IMHO are a waste of money for what you get. The actual area of contact is much smaller then the 2P&G connectors. I had a lot of bad luck in having them burn and melt. I was fussy about the 2P&G connectors and I never had one burn. On the down-side, they seem to me to be so "last century." When you look at the size of pins in Soco, you wonder if it is time for a new type of 3 pin power connector that is a lot smaller.


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## DuckJordan

Now to throw a wrench in this discussion, I've seen some locking Edison connectors. Now this provides a standard plug, that can go in any outlet (not just the locking ones) but you also have a fairly sturdy locking connection (I believe it was a 50lb hold.) Thoughts?


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## MPowers

> The 2P+G plug is the most commonly used theatrical connector in the United States. My question is: Why?



There are a number of factors working here. The first is the connector on the individual lighting instrument. The next is the connector used on two-fers, jumpers and long runs of stage cable. Next in line is, of course, the permanently wired connection at the raceway or floor box or wall box that is in turn, hardwired to the actual dimmer. Last, but not least is history and the evolution of lighting equipment including dimmers and distribution. 

When pin connectors were first introduced, dimmers were expensive, individually controlled, and one stage hand could only run 14 to 28 dimmers at most. The result was that dimmers were of large capacity and limited in number. To accommodate a show with different "Looks" and many instruments, loads to a dimmer were changed, plugged and unplugged several times during a show. The goal was that every dimmer was used in every cue. It was a waste of dimmers if one was not involved in a cue. 

When the pin connector was first introduced and up through the 1950's, 2K instruments were common in FOH lighting as were 2K loads and larger, from cyc and strips as was often the case. The parallel blade Edison connector of that time was not nearly as robust as today. 15 amps was a real stretch code wise and practically, and most lacked even a rudimentary strain relief. Licensed electricians were taught to tie a "Union Knot" (underwriter's knot) with the two leads (no grounds on any equipment at the time!) to make a knot too large to pull through the opening in the connector body. The stage pin connector had better strain relief than any Edison connector of the time and 20 amps was no problem if well maintained. 

Between about 1960 and 1980, most instruments evolved to 1K or less, with 500w, 750w and 1000w units as the most common units. At this time the cost of dimmers was still more than the cost of the copper to build "Patch Panels" and the common practice was to have many circuits for every dimmer, but nothing hard wired. The result was every dimmer (except in the case of "specials") had 2 to 4 instruments, or several strip/cyc units plugged to it. Dimmers were usually in two configurations, 3K or 6K-7K. The 3K to handle up to 4 750W units, the 6 or 7 K dimmers to handle massive strip/cyc loads or the occasional 5K stage lights that still showed up.

What this means for our discussion of connectors, is that average loads on connectors then, were larger as a rule than in today's world. Any given connector might be carrying a full 2k (4 x 500w) or frequently 2.25K (3 x 750w) load. The 2.25K load, while not really the best practice was very common. 3K loads were more common than most of us would like to admit. 

Although DPC (Dimmer Per Circuit) technology was emerging in the early 80's, it wasn't until the early 90's and the introduction of the 575w lamp that it really became a practical and economical norm on a large scale. Before this, a common stage layout might be 50-60 dimmers for 300 to 400 circuits and a HUGE, EXPENSIVE, patch panel. Next step was DPC with 96 or 192 circuits but maybe only 2/3 or 3/4 of the dimmer bank populated, a practice that is unfortunetly still practiced today in what I personally believe is false economy, but YMMV. 

Now, back up a bit and it becomes obvious that until recently (relatively speaking,..... within the last 20 years) two-fers, extension cables, raceways, floor pockets or wall boxes all needed to handle a full 20 amps on a regular basis. The standard, parallel blade, U-ground, Edison plug simply did not have that capability. I do not really know when Edison plugs became available that could handle SO cable, but that was also a problem until the last 15 or 20 years. Even in today's world, why have a 2k or 20 amp dimmer if it only has a single 15amp receptacle to plug into? That can be partially resolved by making the final raceway or wall outlet a 20amp Edison which will accept either a 15amp parallel blade or a 20amp "T" blade Edison plug. If that is done, then every extension cable and twofer must have a "T" blade male plug to stay in code within your system and be capable of plugging in everywhere. This will in turn mean that all your extensions and twofers would have to have a female "T" blade body to accept the "T" blade plugs. In a fully compliant system, the individual instruments would be the only things with a parallel blade plug. 

So, in a very loose nut shell, that is why stage pin connectors evolved into the, IMHO, most common, best for the purpose, connector we use. It will remain the most common for the time being as long as it is the most robust, easiest to service, most tamper proof (ever seen a pin connector with the ground cut off? I have seen twist locks with the ground missing, can't imagine why but.....?!!) and it will easily handle the electrical load we ask it to, i.e. 20 amps (and more but I never did and I'm looking the other way....!.) I personally "Hate" the 20amp twist lock. It is bulky, expensive, harder to wire, doesn't match up with rental or road company gear or most concert road rigs. Early 20amp twist locks were also brittle, larger than today and a real PITA. In rental use the twist lock pins get bent and twisted A LOT and while fairly easy to straighten, it is a a pain and a time waster in the middle of a tight load-in. Parallel blade, U-ground Edison plugs can't handle, by code, more than 15amps. and even now, many models can't handle SO for twofers or extensions.


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## Esoteric

JChenault said:


> One poster asked 'Why are stagepins prefered'. My reasons:
> 
> 1 - Carry a full 20 amps ( unlike most edison plugs in common use).
> 2 - Much sturdier than either twist lock or edison.
> 3 - Substantially cheaper than twistlock or edison.
> 4 - Will not roll if stepped on.
> 
> The only disadvantage I see over twist lock is that they do not lock. I can live with that.
> 
> John



Bingo. Bates plugs cost me $4 each while 5-20's cost me $14 each.


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## JD

Esoteric said:


> Bingo. Bates plugs cost me $4 each while 5-20's cost me $14 each.



When bought from the right vendor, even good quality 2P&Gs are surprisingly cheap. I walk into Home Depot and see Hubble female Edisons going for $15 and think "Why?" Just look at the amount of brass involved in making one vs the other.


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## derekleffew

JD said:


> ...Just look at the amount of brass involved in making one vs the other.


Thank you for that opening, [USER]JD[/USER]. I've been pondering this for a while now. Time to do the maths with my new Vernier Calipers. 

Let's compare the conductive *surface area* of the two hot contacts of each connector. 
The male blade of a NEMA 5-15 is 0.62" long by 0.24" wide (x 0.060" thick; we'll use that later), giving 0.298 sq.in. The pin of a 20A 2P&G is 0.62" long by 0.24" in diameter, yielding a surface area of 0.467 in[SUP]2[/SUP]. Thus the pin connector's pin *has 57% MORE surface area* than the blade. 
Of course, neither female makes full contact with the male's surface. The Edison loses again, as the female makes even less _available_ contact than the pin connector. If you've ever seen inside a 5-15 female, it's surprising how small the "wipers" are. Twist-lock s aren't much, if any, better.

As for *volume*, the exposed blade contains 0.002 cu.in. The pin is 0.028 in[SUP]3[/SUP]. If I've done the math correctly, the pin *contains 13 times more material* (brass) than the blade.

To look at the whole thing another way, compare the 20A pin connector's pins with those from a rated/listed 60A pin and sleeve connector. The 60A's aren't that much bigger! I contend that, were it not for the termination methods and wire size limitations, the 2P&G-20 could easily safely carry many more amperes than 20. Certainly can't same the same for a NEMA 5-15, 5-20, Turn-Lock, PowerCON, or IEC 60320.


/end diatribe
.


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## chausman

Derek, you have too much free time.


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