# How to lift people?



## bobgaggle (Jun 25, 2011)

DON'T WORRY! I know the title of this thread may sound like I'm about to do something incredibly stupid, but I'm not. I'm just looking for information about standards and rules regarding the safe and proper lifting of people. Yes scissor lifts and boom lifts are designed to safely lift people, but I've been in situations in various venues where these options are not viable due to either lack of space to fit a lift or the venue not owning one. With this in mind, I've wondered why other lifting devices can't be used to lift people. For example, all the chain motors I've worked with (from 1/2 ton to 4 ton) specify on their label that they are not to be used for lifting people, regardless of the type of chain being used.

Why?

Why can't a 4 ton motor (which is well over the 10:1 safety ratio) be used to lift a person? If a 3/4" climbing line and a carabiner bought at the local REI is acceptable to support a person dangling off a cliff face, why can't a chain motor accept that?

I do understand that climbing ropes are more elastic and can absorb the shock force of a falling person, but what about a separate dedicated safety line attached to the harness of the person being lifted?


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## icewolf08 (Jun 25, 2011)

Can we take a moment to pause and think of the practicality of using a chain motor to lift a person for aerial work?

When you are using a lift or a ladder, it is a relatively simple operation to setup and move to where you need to work. Just think, in order to move from location to location with a chain motor you have to completely re-rig it every time. Then consider that when you are hanging from a single point, be it a chain motor or a climbing rope, every time you do anything, it is going to make you rotate and swing. Try turning a light and you will quickly realize that you don't have physics on your side!

Why does a chain motor have a label that says "not to be used to lift people"? Well, for the same reason that the top rungs of a ladder is a "not a step." The potential to lose your balance and fall is not necessarily greater on the top two steps, but someone probably did fall and subsequently sued the manufacturer. Can a chain motor safely lift a person? Can a person safely work on the top rung of a ladder? Probably. Is it a good idea? No.

Most winches that are designed and rated for lifting people have all kinds of control and safety parameters that chain hoists do not. Being able to control speed, acceleration, deceleration, and have appropriate braking and locking mechanisms are some of the major differences.

So, if the placard that says not to do it, isn't good enough, those are just a few reasons.


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## emac (Jun 25, 2011)

I am also pretty sure that as soon as something is rated for human lifting then the manufacturer needs to have a different type of liability insurance then if they are just lifting loads.


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## DuckJordan (Jun 25, 2011)

emac said:


> I am also pretty sure that as soon as something is rated for human lifting then the manufacturer needs to have a different type of liability insurance then if they are just lifting loads.


 
The manufacturer doesn't need Liability insurance but their product needs to be able to stand up to more strict standards. 

Honestly I can't see this thread give any information without basically describing a how to. I have no problems discussing why certain techniques are used and why certain equipment is used but explaining all the ins and outs is just asking for trouble.

I have to ask what would bring up the question of using a chain lift to lift a person. The only way I can forsee getting a chain lift somewhere that you would want to lift someone with, you are going to need someone to be lifted by different means to rig the chain motor.


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## Dover (Jun 25, 2011)

I came across this in the OSHA regs last week as I was trying to answer a question that came up at work. 
The way I read it, it says that a hoisting device may be used to lift a person if there is no other option for safe access. I think a lifting cage or something similar needs to be used, I do not think you can just clip somebody's climbing harness to the hook and go.
It is however in the construction section so I do not think it would apply to a theater or arena.

Dover


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## derekleffew (Jun 25, 2011)

So what about the rock shows where they bring a truss in, load on spot op s, then fly it back out?

More than once I've seen chain hoist s used to transport a truss spot op into position.

Some rigging companies use window washing platform hardware to create temporary personnel elevators.


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## Tex (Jun 25, 2011)

DuckJordan said:


> The manufacturer doesn't need Liability insurance but their product needs to be able to stand up to more strict standards.


I would would be absolutely floored if chain motor manufacturers didn't have massive liability policies. Hell, I have a pretty big umbrella policy just in case somebody trips and falls on my sidewalk...


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## Footer (Jun 25, 2011)

When Foy/ZFX/Hall put their rigs into the air they do it with standard chain hoists. When Cirque puts their aerial rigging into the air on their arena tours they do it with standard chain hoists. They use the same baskets that is used to hang lighting and audio trusses. When you start flying people you don't go to some special top secret "flying people" store where everything is magical. It is done with similar stuff that is used to fly scenery. However, a lot is done to make sure there is no possibility of failure. In fact, flying rigs are rather simple physics device. That being said though, the people that install and operate them have been doing it long enough that they know what feels right and what looks right. Its that training that make them worth the money.


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## Van (Jun 25, 2011)

Yhe real prohibition on using things to lift people is the basic; " If you don't know how and you don't have the training to properly figure out how, then DON'T!" 
There are all sorts of things used to lift people and equipment in a billion differnt circumstances. I can tell you three different way to build an 'elevator' to lift people onto the stage,but there are all things that are tested, tried and proved true.


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## bobgaggle (Jun 25, 2011)

Thanks for all the input. I created this thread because of a situation that arose during a load in of Into the Woods. We had two large trees that created a proscenium and the points where the limbs attached to the trunk were at least 16 feet off the deck. The venue had no ladders that I felt safe climbing (old rickety wooden things that wouldn't handle my 210lbs) and one of the house guys suggested hooking up a truss to two motors so I could ride it up and attach the limbs. Since the motors said not to lift people, I didn't go up, and we were able to borrow a genie from another local theater. But the proposition got me thinking about such lifting techniques...


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## mstaylor (Jun 26, 2011)

I know that at motor school the two things you aren't supposed to do with hoists is lift people and hang things over audiences. What asked about both house trusses and spot ops it was suggested that transfering to deadhang steel was best.


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## metti (Jun 26, 2011)

mstaylor said:


> I know that at motor school the two things you aren't supposed to do with hoists is lift people and hang things over audiences. What asked about both house trusses and spot ops it was suggested that transfering to deadhang steel was best.


 
Be that as it may, both of those are common practice. Truss spot ops are often lifted in to place by motors (U2 360 Tour springs to mind as a recent example of this) and trusses are often suspended by motors over people in the special/corporate event world. I'm not a rigger and I don't know how officially kosher either of these practices are but they are definitely widespread.


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## mstaylor (Jun 27, 2011)

I am a rigger and I assure both things happen all the time. I know when we hang anything where the President is, all trusses are moved to dead steel. Basically that means you lift to a trim height, add a second point and let the weight transfer to the steel. The motor then becomes the safety. I believe Feld does this also, except the motor is primary and the steel is the safety.


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## MarshallPope (Jun 27, 2011)

mstaylor said:


> I am a rigger and I assure both things happen all the time. I know when we hang anything where the President is, all trusses are moved to dead steel. Basically that means you lift to a trim height, add a second point and let the weight transfer to the steel. The motor then becomes the safety. I believe Feld does this also, except the motor is primary and the steel is the safety.


 
Just out of curiosity, wouldn't it be safer to hang from the motor with the steel as safety? It seems to me (Maybe incorrectly) that the steel alone would be more capable of taking a shock load than a motor would.


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## erosing (Jun 27, 2011)

MarshallPope said:


> Just out of curiosity, wouldn't it be safer to hang from the motor with the steel as safety? It seems to me (Maybe incorrectly) that the steel alone would be more capable of taking a shock load than a motor would.


 
Hmm, is that a QOTD I'm smelling?


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## EBB (Jun 27, 2011)

Well I would think as far as the steel versus the motor in shock load, that there is still the bits and pieces that are taking alot of the weight, like the shackles themselves. And also shock load on something like truss, depending on weight on it. If it falls and the motor catches it, I would still question if it would even help since it seems like after a certain amount of weight, the shock would just rip through the truss. Or at least that's what I've been told by other people when they said they had seen ripped up chinese truss(no surprise there) torn up from the welds being pulled so hard. But I don't know hot legitimate those points are since I am not a rigging expert.


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## mstaylor (Jun 27, 2011)

Whether the steel takes the shock better or worse than a motor is irrelevant because both will be hanging from a basket or choke on the building steel. What will cut a truss in half is applying a steel basket directly to an alumninum truss. It may not cut it in half but you will certainly want it out of the air. I have seen one truss peel the triangle blocks off a truss in the air. The welds didn't fail, the metal did, and it was American made, one of the top two.


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## Esoteric (Jun 27, 2011)

Fascinating thread. We always had to climb a ladder to our truss spots. There were times when I wished they would lift us into place. *lol* Or beam us up.


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## mstaylor (Jun 27, 2011)

The downside to having the truss come get you is you can't getoff. I did truss spot years ago on the Skyscraper tour. As we were in standby for houselights we dropped power, then it came right back. Everybody's spot relit but mine. The LD was going to let me jump to a pod to bring me down but decided against it because I was a local. I told I was the flippin' head rigger, I certainly could transfer with no problem. Good show but would have prefered to have been on the deck.


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## kicknargel (Jun 27, 2011)

icewolf08 said:


> The potential to lose your balance and fall is not necessarily greater on the top two steps, . . .



A bit off-topic, but IMO the potential to lose your balance is WAY higher on the top two steps. 1) You have nothing to hold onto with your hands as you get onto these steps, and 2) when on a ladder you typically brace your shin against the next steps, giving you three points of contact.


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## shiben (Jun 27, 2011)

kicknargel said:


> A bit off-topic, but IMO the potential to lose your balance is WAY higher on the top two steps. 1) You have nothing to hold onto with your hands as you get onto these steps, and 2) when on a ladder you typically brace your shin against the next steps, giving you three points of contact.


 
But if your halfway careful you can easily use every step of the ladder. And FWIW, the only time I have fallen off a ladder is when I tried to overreach halfway up a 12' ladder. Plenty of space above and below for bracing. I just lost my balance. The point is, you can fall off of any ladder at any time. Anything can break at any time. Even the gear that the top flying people in the country use has the potential (abet a small one) to fail spontaneously and randomly, due to tiny, non-detectable visually problems in the alloy. Pretty much the entire exercise is minimizing risk, and thats probably why they dont want you on a chain hoist. It minimizes the risk.


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## Footer (Jun 27, 2011)

shiben said:


> But if your halfway careful you can easily use every step of the ladder. And FWIW, the only time I have fallen off a ladder is when I tried to overreach halfway up a 12' ladder. Plenty of space above and below for bracing. I just lost my balance. The point is, you can fall off of any ladder at any time. Anything can break at any time. Even the gear that the top flying people in the country use has the potential (abet a small one) to fail spontaneously and randomly, due to tiny, non-detectable visually problems in the alloy. Pretty much the entire exercise is minimizing risk, and thats probably why they dont want you on a chain hoist. It minimizes the risk.


 
....and more importantly, when it fails, they can say its not meant for that!


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## shiben (Jun 28, 2011)

Footer said:


> ....and more importantly, when it fails, they can say its not meant for that!


 
Didnt say who's risk was being minimized! ;-) And lets be honest, all kinds of lifting devices get used for lifting people in ways never intended and far more dangerous. I saw this show about Oil rigs and they transfer crews to ships using cranes and a cargo net hooked onto a little platform. Everyone holds on and away they go. And people walk trusses held up by chain hoists often. People ride the vortex lift up to focus instead of bumping. People use stuff for lifting themselves all the time that its not designed for per se. And it usually works fine until someone dies and someone else needs to put a new label on their widget. However, I guess to me the idea of using a chain hoist to lift a person, a la hook the hook to your dorsal attachment and pull up, is kind of outrageous, if your going to hook an access point up use a climbing rope and ascended rig, much cheaper. Or rig a circus ladder, also cheaper and easy to climb. Just remember the fall arrest system. A hoist is just silly to use for lifting a person to an overhead position. So I guess in my view, its a silly situation not because it wont work (lets be honest, it probably will work great for pulling a person into the air), it just seems to be way more complicated than it needs to be. I highly doubt a multi ton chain hoist would be dangerous in that it might fail in this application, however.


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## shiben (Jun 28, 2011)

bobgaggle said:


> Thanks for all the input. I created this thread because of a situation that arose during a load in of Into the Woods. We had two large trees that created a proscenium and the points where the limbs attached to the trunk were at least 16 feet off the deck. The venue had no ladders that I felt safe climbing (old rickety wooden things that wouldn't handle my 210lbs) and one of the house guys suggested hooking up a truss to two motors so I could ride it up and attach the limbs. Since the motors said not to lift people, I didn't go up, and we were able to borrow a genie from another local theater. But the proposition got me thinking about such lifting techniques...


 
See this is an example of "WAY overthinking it". The time and effort taken to instal 2 hoists, rig a truss, and fly it out is gigantic compared to the cheaper and easier way of dealing with this problem, which is (given no lift or ladders), drop a rope and rappel down. Drop a second rope to pull stuff up. With proper rappelling technique, you should be able to work fairly easily with the situation at hand. What Rigger? will probably pop in here sooner or later and denounce this as unsafe without proper training, so you should probably get that training too. However, that just seems like an easier way to do it, and possibly safer?


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## Esoteric (Jun 28, 2011)

Infinitely safer with proper training Shiben. Because you would be doing what the equipment was actually meant to do.


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## shiben (Jun 28, 2011)

Esoteric said:


> Infinitely safer with proper training Shiben. Because you would be doing what the equipment was actually meant to do.


 
Right. Basically my point was this method is cheaper and safer, putting limbs on a tree using a chain hoist elevator is really way more work than I as a technician want to do and way more work than rappelling. I understand loading truss spot ops, but thats really a bit different, IMO. Loading 6 guys on the truss with their gear is not using it as a scaffold, and so the situation is a bit different.


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