# Fire Code question



## Moonsp1ke (Apr 24, 2015)

Our media department received this message and I don't know if it's right - we've been using gaff tape for years: "Guys, Had a walk through with the Fire Marshall yesterday. 1 Item in the Auditorium; the wires for the confidence monitor from the first row seats to the stage cannot be held in place with gaff tape, must be in a wire way (flex type is OK)." Can you only use gaff tape for temporary events? (We're in New York state, btw)


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## BillConnerFASTC (Apr 24, 2015)

If "the wires" includes a power cord than I'd agree. You can't tape permanent (I think 180 days by NEC) power wiring in place. Not sure if only low voltage/data but maybe does need to be something more permanent than tape.


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## StradivariusBone (Apr 24, 2015)

My question would be more so on what you've gaff taped the cables to. I know from my high school job as a cable monkey that in commercial buildings, for example, you cannot zip tie low voltage (data, phone) cabling to the wire ceiling grid supports. This was common practice for a long time (especially in retrofits), but it's apparently against code to use certain things in the overhead to support cable, high voltage or otherwise unless they are designed to accomodate additional loading. In some cases we were required to install raceways to support just a few cables, but in newer construction the raceways would be planned along major cable runs to handle the extra weight. 

Is this taped to the floor though? Can you provide a photo of the setup?


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## Moonsp1ke (Apr 24, 2015)

Gaff-taped to a carpeted floor. The cables are power and data, so I guess we'll be putting in a wireway. Thanks for the (good type of) feedback!


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## BillConnerFASTC (Apr 24, 2015)

You could probably leave or retape the data, but if the power cord is there for more than 180 days (or is it 30, different periods for different disciplines) there really is no choice.


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## LavaASU (Apr 24, 2015)

BillConnerASTC said:


> You could probably leave or retape the data, but if the power cord is there for more than 180 days (or is it 30, different periods for different disciplines) there really is no choice.



Move the confidence monitor 5' one way, in 180 days move it back, repeat endlessly?? Theres a certain resort here that has a tent they leave in one place for 180 days, move to the other side of the property for the next 180 days, then move back endlessly so they keep temporary fire code rules.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Apr 24, 2015)

LavaASU said:


> Move the confidence monitor 5' one way, in 180 days move it back, repeat endlessly?? Theres a certain resort here that has a tent they leave in one place for 180 days, move to the other side of the property for the next 180 days, then move back endlessly so they keep temporary fire code rules.



I hope that suggestion to circumvent the intent of a code for minimum safety is in jest.


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## derekleffew (Apr 24, 2015)

Moonsp1ke said:


> the wires for the confidence monitor from the first row seats to the stage cannot be held in place with gaff tape, must be in a wire way (flex type is OK)." Can you only use gaff tape for temporary events?


So this


http://www.pmspower.com/products/D-2_Rubber_Duct_Cord_Cover.jpg
is okay? (Although would likely be much safer if the edges were gaff taped to the carpet!)


BillConnerASTC said:


> but if the power cord is there for more than 180 days (or is it 30, different periods for different disciplines)


As we learned in this thread: http://www.controlbooth.com/threads/long-term-portable-lighting-system-use.22016 , the NEC makes a somewhat firm distinction between permanent, temporary, and portable.

Do what your AHJ tells you, no matter how much you (or we) disagree. Unless you can make your case without alienating him/her, a very fine needle to thread.


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## Dionysus (Apr 24, 2015)

BillConnerASTC said:


> I hope that suggestion to circumvent the intent of a code for minimum safety is in jest.



As usual I have to agree with Bill. There is a REASON for rules on "temporary installation" especially with electrical. Extension cables should NEVER be used on a permanent basis for a variety of reasons. Plus with a cable taped down in a "permanent" installation on the floor is going to be walked on and wheeled over many many times, degrading and damaging the cable.

When designing the space power needs should be accounted for, and receptacles placed where needed. This is CODE for non-residential occupancy, as there is no requirement to have a minimum spacing for receptacles as there is in residential occupancy (they are actually spaced so you really shouldn't ever need an extension cord in your home).

Plus it looks like hell.


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## Dionysus (Apr 24, 2015)

derekleffew said:


> So this
> 
> http://www.pmspower.com/products/D-2_Rubber_Duct_Cord_Cover.jpg
> is okay? (Although would likely be much safer if the edges were gaff taped to the carpet!)
> ...



Typically still for "permanent installation" this is not okay, but it sounds like the AHJ is going to let them get away with using this as it does provide some mechanical protection to the cables (tape does not).


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## robartsd (Apr 24, 2015)

Dionysus said:


> (they are actually spaced so you really shouldn't ever need an extension cord in your home).


The general requirement for a residence is that no point allong a wall is more than 6' from an outlet - most devices that are not generally moved while in use have cords 18-36" long, so some positions along a wall would still need extension cords.


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## Dionysus (Apr 24, 2015)

robartsd said:


> The general requirement for a residence is that no point allong a wall is more than 6' from an outlet - most devices that are not generally moved while in use have cords 18-36" long, so some positions along a wall would still need extension cords.



Of this I am well aware, however that is the "spirit" of the code. As far as the AHJ is concerned moving your stuff a little to the left or right to make it so you don't need a cord is what you should do. Unless it really is temporary then use a cord. Hence my language "really shouldn't need" not "absolutely don't need".


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## AlexDonkle (Apr 24, 2015)

Moonsp1ke said:


> Gaff-taped to a carpeted floor. The cables are power and data, so I guess we'll be putting in a wireway. Thanks for the (good type of) feedback!



Just a note, if you add a wireway, you cannot put the power and data in the same one. They must be separated for permanent install. Like Bill suggested, just tape the data down outside the raceway. There are raceways available with built-in voltage dividers for this reason, but they're more expensive.


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## derekleffew (Apr 24, 2015)

AlexDonkle said:


> Just a note, if you add a wireway, you cannot put the power and data in the same one. They must be separated for permanent install.


So how does one handle something like this?

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00E0R60JO/?tag=controlbooth-20
Two conduits going into the same box?

Similarly, how does one wire a box intended for Meyer VEAM CIR connector outlet s?


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## AlexDonkle (Apr 24, 2015)

derekleffew said:


> So how does one handle something like this?
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00E0R60JO/?tag=controlbooth-20
> Two conduits going into the same box?
> ...



Good question. NEC has an exception for this condition, specifically for this type of jack. NEC 800.133, they're allowed to share a j-box (not a conduit) so long as there's 2" of separate inside the box between power and communication conductors. This is somewhat rarely done in practice on the commercial projects I've worked on. Most projects will use separate outlets, or a 2-gang box with voltage divider inside the box.

On the Meyer VEAM, I'm not really sure how NEC views that.


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## LavaASU (Apr 24, 2015)

BillConnerASTC said:


> I hope that suggestion to circumvent the intent of a code for minimum safety is in jest.



Yes... its a joke about the well known venue here that does that.


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## Jay Ashworth (Apr 25, 2015)

AlexDonkle said:


> Good question. NEC has an exception for this condition, specifically for this type of jack. NEC 800.133, they're allowed to share a j-box (not a conduit) so long as there's 2" of separate inside the box between power and communication conductors. This is somewhat rarely done in practice on the commercial projects I've worked on. Most projects will use separate outlets, or a 2-gang box with voltage divider inside the box.
> 
> On the Meyer VEAM, I'm not really sure how NEC views that.



Wait; that's code now?


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## Dionysus (Apr 25, 2015)

Jay Ashworth said:


> Wait; that's code now?



Not sure about there, but here Division between line and low voltage has been code for a LONG TIME (~20 years). Usually Box dividers if using the same J-Box, with separate conduits as stated. Physical separation alone is no good here however (inside a box). But typically separate boxes are used. A really good example of this is "floor boxes" with both low-voltage and line-voltage, if you look closely they come with dividers built in to many models.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Apr 26, 2015)

If you look at the link, its "frequently sold together with" abox with a barrier. There is no mixing of line and low voltage required by the device. There are a number of barriered boxes. I just installed one in my kitchen renovation in a very high cabinet for power to a transformer and low voltage to some led under cabinet 
Lights.


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## garyvp (Apr 27, 2015)

Moonsp1ke said:


> Our media department received this message and I don't know if it's right - we've been using gaff tape for years: "Guys, Had a walk through with the Fire Marshall yesterday. 1 Item in the Auditorium; the wires for the confidence monitor from the first row seats to the stage cannot be held in place with gaff tape, must be in a wire way (flex type is OK)." Can you only use gaff tape for temporary events? (We're in New York state, btw)


In my theater (in NYC) I carefully control access to Gaffers tape due to the propensity of the various crews to use it (or misuse it) for just about anything, especially having to do with electrical cables. I hate it when they tape power cables to the floor. If its permanent then the FM is correct - you need a proper raceway installed. If temporary then use an allowable rubber raceway. We always use tie line or even wire ties for cabling to the grid as getting the tape off is a pain. Most of our theatrical lighting electrical distribution is conduit-based, which some of our lighting designers gripe about (at first), and it greatly minimizes this issue.


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## Jazzy Joel (May 24, 2015)

a side note to using raceway is ADA codes, Handicap access is paramount and gaff tape does not fly when ADA compliance is a must... also as stated a cable raceway has to have to SEPARATE divisions: 1. Low voltage 2. High voltage ... We got yelled at for a show at a middle school gaffed a temp run of DMX/AUDIO and Power from the stage to middle of the house to set-up a control booth ... They wanted ADA compliance raceway and to have a separate division of Low and High voltage ... We rigged a 3/32 aircraft cable from stage to Back of building 75' and we use that to "fly" our DMX/Audio cables from stage to control booth (Power already available at rear area) .. FM and ADA dont complain any more


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