# What is a patchbay?



## mbandgeek (Apr 18, 2006)

I have noticed one of these on the sound equipment racks at my highschool. What does it do? I can't find anything on it anywhere on the internet.


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## nez (Apr 18, 2006)

i thought a patchbay was for wired headsets but i could be wrong about that


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## mbandgeek (Apr 18, 2006)

I don't know, but it could be, there are three or four different types. 
Balanced
Unbalanced
1/4"plugs
RCA Plugs
That is basically all that i know about them


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## nez (Apr 18, 2006)

well then i dont think it is for wired headset


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## nez (Apr 18, 2006)

maybe it is so that you can combine all of the signals in to one? not sure


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## Foxinabox10 (Apr 18, 2006)

A patchbay is where a bunch of input jacks come in on one panel from various spots around the auditorium and then you use short cables to connect those to a panel of outputs to the sound board, etc.


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## Eboy87 (Apr 18, 2006)

The patch bay at our school is used to select which hardwired input (located throughout the theater) goes to which channel on the board. We have more inputs than our board can handle, so we just patch in the ones we need.

The jacks are split up into two rows on each unit, one for the input (or output), and which board channel. There are also tie lines, which let you hook two mics in one channel, but I've never used them before. We just plug in a patch cord from the input from the stage into the jack that corrosponds to the channel on the board I want.

Here's a pic, the patch bays are the ones with all of the cables coming out



I'm sure someone else with more experience will be around to answer more throughly, but I think this is the jist of it.


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## tenor_singer (Apr 18, 2006)

Our school has a patch bay and in essence it allows us to reorder the channels on our mixer. 

For example... right now we have four wireless microphones running through channels 20 - 24. If I wanted to have them run through channels 1 - 4 I can use my patch bay (which looks very similar to the old telephone operator boards you commonly see in cartoons) to adjust that by plugging a cord into channel 20 on the "output row" and plugging the other end into channel 1 on the "input row". It bypasses all existing wiring and runs that microphone through channel 1.

We also use it to patch in equipment around the stage that isn't normally used a lot. An example of that is our upstage hanging microphones. They hang behind our choir set up area, so I don't use them a lot. When there is an activity that uses the entire stage, I patch them in to one of the free channels of the board.

What it won't do is allow you to use more equipment than you have channels for. It just allows for easier juggling of microphones, instruments, etc...


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## AVGuyAndy (Apr 18, 2006)

There are many different types of patchbays, with many different types of connectors.

Basically, a patchbay will have a few rows of connecotrs mounted on a panel. Each connector is wired to an input or output on a peice of gear. Then on the front of the panel you can change how inputs and outputs are "patched" together by using cable to go from connector to connector.


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## CURLS (Apr 18, 2006)

Ohh and for the kids who want a few extra sound bites. HAHA 

Decent patchbays usually use brass 1/4" jacks in which case they sometime can have difficulty passing signal when repatched after years of use. You will notice this on i/p and o/p channels with buzz and hum(hint: check your patchbay) A lot of times you can go to your patchbay wiggle the thing and it will go away. However, a much better way of fixing this problem is OBVIOUSLY muting the channel and then taking the jack and plugging it in to what you want and pulling it out BY THE CONNECTOR 5 or 8 times kinda quickly. In turn this cleans the jack, remember to be carefull and not use contact cleaner on the brass jacks b/c they can be damaged over time. 

Next topic is types of connections in a patchbay. You almost always have your incoming signals on the top row of a single unit and your outgoing on the bottom. Now there are 3 different types of internal connections that can happen in the back. First is just all open and ready to be patched which is the wisest and most basic. The second and somewhat usefull is half-normalled which means the top bottom pair are already connected internally w/o an external patch and then you can come out of that maintain the current internal patch while splitting it and sending it somewhere else on the front patch. Then the last is just fully nornalled which is again internally already plugged into each other but as soon as something is plugged into one it breaks the connection. VERY TOUGH concept to grasp, until the lightbulb goes off. 

Another usefull term to learn while talking about patchbays is mult. Which, is more or less just an exact copy of a signal like a female to two male split or trantechtuals a two-fer (pimp) or threefer(whorehouse). This is use a lot of times in my industry where we have drive lines that get multed to a patch panel on our amp racks.


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## AVGuyAndy (Apr 18, 2006)

CURLS said:


> Good batchbays usually use brass 1/4" jacks



I would say that good patchbays use balanced XLR connections, not 1/4".


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## AVGuyAndy (Apr 18, 2006)

Hmm...Beer and vdosc, what a great combination.


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## CURLS (Apr 18, 2006)

AVGuyAndy said:


> I would say that good patchbays use balanced XLR connections, not 1/4".


Thanks man i changed it to decent connectors, my bad. However, you will find that maybe 90 percent of patch bays are of the male 1/4" kind or Tiny telephone (audio)(video different story) Ya come home from work and doing vdosc training all day and your mind gets a little tired of thinking audio. Thats when ya sit down and have a beer and talk with the olll lady!


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## Eboy87 (Apr 18, 2006)

CURLS said:


> remember to be carefull and not use contact cleaner on the brass jacks b/c they can be damaged over time.


 
We havn't cleaned our brass patch cords in forever. What kind of cleaner would you use? Our TD just wants to put them in rubbing alcohol.


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## mbandgeek (Apr 18, 2006)

can't it also be used to patch in effects to a certain Channel?


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## mbandgeek (Apr 18, 2006)

CURLS said:


> Thanks man i changed it to decent connectors, my bad. However, you will find that maybe 90 percent of patch bays are of the male 1/4" kind or Tiny telephone (audio)(video different story) Ya come home from work and doing vdosc training all day and your mind gets a little tired of thinking audio. Thats when ya sit down and have a beer and talk with the olll lady!



Wait a second...... Isn't it female connectors?
How do you hook up one of these patchbays anyway?


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## AVGuyAndy (Apr 18, 2006)

It depends on the function of your patchbay, and how it is wired. All a patchbay does is make a nice user interface if you will.


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## mbandgeek (Apr 18, 2006)

So is the top the input, and the bottom the output. Or is it a front and a back thing?


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## AVGuyAndy (Apr 18, 2006)

Depends on how your patchbay is wired.


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## mbandgeek (Apr 18, 2006)

So it is just used to change the channels of some specific things, and possibly free up some channels?


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## CURLS (Apr 18, 2006)

More or less think of it as a way to rearrange your i/p's and o/p's via a bay of wires much like the way telephone operators did back in the day. Yes, you can also have a patchbay for time based and dynamic effects as well as signal routing throughout your theatre. They are also used in broadcast trucks to route audio and comms which.. ive seen and they are ridiculous sometimes taking up whole walls. The question about the brass connector i would have to say just leave it and work with cleaning the mechanical way that i stated. ADC a manufacturerelajdla however u spell it w/o being corrected by some smartass hs kid makes patchbays and they suggest not to use any cleaning solution b/c it can damage cables and make them short or just not conduct over time. 
hope this answers


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## Chris15 (Apr 18, 2006)

AVGuyAndy said:


> I would say that good patchbays use balanced XLR connections, not 1/4".



That is not necessarily true. 1/4" connectors have many applications. You have TS connectors which are used on instrument cables and the like and mono connections. TRS connections can be used for stereo headphones and connectors on consumer equipment, for insert jacks and also, as they are in patch bays, as a balanced connector. I believe that the convention is:
Sleeve to XLR pin 1 (Ground)
Ring to XLR pin 3 (Audio Cold)
Tip to XLR pin 2 (Audio Hot)
Though having said that, the reversal of tip and ring I would not think uncommon. It really does not matter, so long as everything is the same. If things are wired with 1/4" connectors or in most patch bays scenarios, patching with phantom power energised on that channel could lead to serious problems as you are shorting out the 48V. Assuming that phantom is off, you should also be able to plug in a TS connector and it will short out say the audio cold to ground.

1/4" jacks have the advantage of being able to fit more connections onto a panel. That I imagine is one of the reasons they are used. 

Patch panels have definite advantages when you have more input sockets than mixer channels. They are also useful if your wiring does not match with how you would like your mixer configured, eg. You have an input SL and it really is better grouped with inputs from SR but it there are inputs both SL and SR and it is neater to cable to SL. It is also advantageous for things like wireless mics as has been said.


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## AVGuyAndy (Apr 18, 2006)

Did you really think that I didn't know what TS and TRS connections are used for, or are you just trying to sound smart?

You only listed 1 (bad) reason why a 1/4" patchbay would be better. XLR patchbays are much more robust, and easier to maintain.


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## Chris15 (Apr 18, 2006)

AVGuyAndy said:


> Did you really think that I didn't know what TS and TRS connections are used for, or are you just trying to sound smart?
> 
> You only listed 1 (bad) reason why a 1/4" patchbay would be better. XLR patchbays are much more robust, and easier to maintain.



No I not questioning your knowledge, just that others who are reading this may not be as aware. Absolutely XLR are more suitable but in spaces where there are lots of inputs and not that much space, they may have advantages. XLR panels are far supreme since I can take a standard mic lead and plug it straight into the panel but for reasons I cannot understand, Some of the best patch bays that exist use either 1/4" or bantam connectors. Neutrik's patch panels are like this.

1/4" does allow normalling and that more easily, with XLR as best I understand it, you would need a patch cable for every channel.

It would appear that both XLR and 1/4" panels have their advantages and both can carry a balanced signal, but given the choice, I would have to agree and go for XLR.

And XLR panels are easier to replace a faulty connector in too...


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## mbandgeek (Apr 24, 2006)

All this information is all and good, but how do you connect things to them?


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## Chris15 (Apr 24, 2006)

mbandgeek said:


> All this information is all and good, but how do you connect things to them?



You might need to elaborate. What are you trying to connect?


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## mbandgeek (Apr 24, 2006)

Just a few Effects processors on a single mic


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## AVGuyAndy (Apr 24, 2006)

Dare I ask why you want a FEW processors on one mic? This really depends on your school's setup. Why don't you ask someone at your school how your patchbay works?


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## CURLS (Apr 24, 2006)

Ok by now i have watched you repeatedly ask the same questions over and over again and to get nowhere. I think Andy would have to agree that you are wasting our time in asking us silly questions about something that can easily be researched for days on the internet if not just go to your local music/audio store and ask. If you are really going to be this openly absent minded about finding answers to your questions please quit what you are doing so you do not take an output of an amp plug it into your patchbay and connect that output to the input of your console. LOOK, i just explained it all over again to you. Have fun in this industry!


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## Chris15 (Apr 24, 2006)

CURLS said:


> Ok by now i have watched you repeatedly ask the same questions over and over again and to get nowhere. I think Andy would have to agree that you are wasting our time in asking us silly questions about something that can easily be researched for days on the internet if not just go to your local music/audio store and ask. If you are really going to be this openly absent minded about finding answers to your questions please quit what you are doing so you do not take an output of an amp plug it into your patchbay and connect that output to the input of your console. LOOK, i just explained it all over again to you. Have fun in this industry!



I think that you are being a bit harsh here. mbandgeek has indicated elsewhere on the site that "I admit it i am a teenager that has a lot of time and no social life whatsoever. I like being a theater technician and I am learning new stuff every day from this website, and getting points for my cluelessness in some topics." Clearly he is just trying to build up his knowledge.

It would be impossible for us to tell you how to patch into your patchbay, except to say using a cable. There are many different ways that the patchbay can be internally connected and there is no way that we can know which one of the options it is without seeing it and testing it. Is there anyone in your school who knows how it is configured? Since it is obvious that some people do not feel that you asking questions is an appropriate use of these forums, you may wish to contact me by PM, but ultimately, without being in your space we cannot tell you how to patch into the panel.


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## AVGuyAndy (Apr 24, 2006)

If by harsh, you mean not bull****ting, and actually saying like it is in the real world, then sure.

And as for an innapropriate use of these forums: Lecturing people, like you have been, perhaps?

[mod]Please refrain from cursing as the Englist language provides enough other words to adequately express yourself.  CB works hard to make sure that content filters have no reason to block us. Thanks much! -dvsDave[/mod]


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## Chris15 (Apr 24, 2006)

Obviously there is a difference of opinion between us. I tend to give people slack, but obviously some others do not seem to work in that way. As far as I can tell, mbandgeek is trying to work out how to use his patchbay and appears to want a definitive answer, something that we cannot give.

I do not intend to lecture, rather to provide a background to what I am saying and lay it out clearly for those who are new and don't understand the difference between a TS and a TRS. If you think that I am lecturing, then ignore my posts.


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## Mayhem (Apr 25, 2006)

Ok - I think that is enough. 

One of the reasons that many of us use this site is the fact that individuals are not persecuted for asking questions, regardless of how we perceive them.

Actually, look it it another way, perhaps the answers we are providing are not clear enough. As the saying goes, there is no such thing as a stupid question. However, this sort of attack may not only discourage his participation here but in other situations. Remember sitting in a classroom and not wanting to ask a question or not putting your arm up when a teacher asks “is there anyone that doesn’t understand this” because you didn’t want others to know that you didn’t know something? Well it takes guts to ask questions.

Now there are going to be times when other members annoy us for one reason or another. I certainly know that there have been times when someone has annoyed me and I am sure that I annoy a lot of you also.

Either ignore what they say or refrain from replying. If it gets too much, send them a PM – but beware, as the site will not tolerate abusive PMs being sent.

This is a site that aims to foster and encourage interest and education no matter what the level of experience. I know that there have been (and still are) times when what appears to be the most simple thing has baffled me and reading the instructions have only made it more confusing. Lets keep that in mind when responding in the future.

Wouldn’t your time be better spent trying to find out what it is that he doesn’t understand given the explanations thus far? Either that or don’t read this topic any more.


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## kingfisher1 (Apr 25, 2006)

as i see a patch bay it just a traffic cop telling cars (electrical signals) wher to park. If it helps to think of it this way the patch bay is just and extension of you mic cable, with the physical means for better organisation so and effects processors could theretically be put anywhere. (btw, i could be completely off target here, i'm applying lighting logic to sound...) 
for my personal set up i pull a mic cable directly for the snake a.k.a a mic, plug it into a channel on the board, then send it through an aux to the processor.


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## Chris15 (Apr 26, 2006)

To take all the previous answers and combine them together, we are NOT able to tell you how to plug into YOUR patchbay. We might be able to tell you how to use our own but we do not know how yours is wired. You really need to find someone at your school to tell you how it has been wired.

We would prefer not to be asked again how to plug into a patchbay, there is simply no universal answer. If you can't find anyone at your school, perhaps someone local might be able to come out and look at it and be able to tell you how it is wired.


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## Eboy87 (Apr 26, 2006)

Maybe pictures might help?


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## mbandgeek (Apr 26, 2006)

AVGuyAndy said:


> Dare I ask why you want a FEW processors on one mic? This really depends on your school's setup. Why don't you ask someone at your school how your patchbay works?




Because nobody at my school knows how it work either. so i came here. Oh, by few i meant one. The patchbay has just been sitting there no one really knows what it is for.


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## mbandgeek (Apr 26, 2006)

Eboy87 said:


> Maybe pictures might help?



on this one, it is simple to explain.

v---------v
lOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOl
lOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOl

That is the basic configuration(might not be enough holes in drawing, best i can do with a text based drawing)

And from there, there is only about 5 cables plugged in on the top row. none on the bottom. the cables just loop back into different holes on the top row.


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## mbenonis (Apr 26, 2006)

The best way to figure out what your patch bay does it to trace cables, if you can. Basically, start on the back with one of the jacks that has something attached in the front. Trace that cable back to wherever it comes from. Then trace the cable that it is jumpered to through the front of the bay, and see where that goes. 

If you want to run a mic through a processor, you'll need to see where the mic comes in to the patch bay, where the effects processor goes out front the patch bay, where the effects processor comes back in to the patch bay, and where the mic signal should eventually go. This is determined by tracing cables, or if you can't do that because they run through walls, etc., through trial and error.

You should be aware that many processors are designed only to work with line level signals - that is, signals that come from devices like mixers, tape decks, computers, etc. In that case, you will need to send the mic to an aux out on the board and run that through the processor and back in to the board. You can also insert it on the mic's channel (using that quarter-inch jack labeled insert), but that requires a specially wired cable that you may or may not have laying around.


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## mbandgeek (Apr 26, 2006)

mbenonis said:


> The best way to figure out what your patch bay does it to trace cables, if you can. Basically, start on the back with one of the jacks that has something attached in the front. Trace that cable back to wherever it comes from. Then trace the cable that it is jumpered to through the front of the bay, and see where that goes.
> 
> If you want to run a mic through a processor, you'll need to see where the mic comes in to the patch bay, where the effects processor goes out front the patch bay, where the effects processor comes back in to the patch bay, and where the mic signal should eventually go. This is determined by tracing cables, or if you can't do that because they run through walls, etc., through trial and error.
> 
> You should be aware that many processors are designed only to work with line level signals - that is, signals that come from devices like mixers, tape decks, computers, etc. In that case, you will need to send the mic to an aux out on the board and run that through the processor and back in to the board. You can also insert it on the mic's channel (using that quarter-inch jack labeled insert), but that requires a specially wired cable that you may or may not have laying around.



thats a good idea, but all the cables lead into what we call "black hole of sound," it has all the sound cables running down that hole. Also when designing the theater, they made all the cables leading in and out of the sound board the same color, and tied it all together with cable ties. so it is near impossible to find what cable leads to what.


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## mbandgeek (Apr 26, 2006)

Chris15 said:


> I think that you are being a bit harsh here. mbandgeek has indicated elsewhere on the site that "I admit it i am a teenager that has a lot of time and no social life whatsoever. I like being a theater technician and I am learning new stuff every day from this website, and getting points for my cluelessness in some topics." Clearly he is just trying to build up his knowledge.
> 
> It would be impossible for us to tell you how to patch into your patchbay, except to say using a cable. There are many different ways that the patchbay can be internally connected and there is no way that we can know which one of the options it is without seeing it and testing it. Is there anyone in your school who knows how it is configured? Since it is obvious that some people do not feel that you asking questions is an appropriate use of these forums, you may wish to contact me by PM, but ultimately, without being in your space we cannot tell you how to patch into the panel.



In all of this i am just trying to find out which are the most common methods of wiring one of these, like why is there four holes on "one channel?"


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## Eboy87 (Apr 26, 2006)

mbandgeek said:


> thats a good idea, but all the cables lead into what we call "black hole of sound," it has all the sound cables running down that hole. Also when designing the theater, they made all the cables leading in and out of the sound board the same color, and tied it all together with cable ties. so it is near impossible to find what cable leads to what.


 
In this case, your best bet is gonna be trial and error, find a free day and spend it testing what is patched to where. Then, once you know what's coming from where, and where it goes, *LABEL IT, *so you don't have to go through this again.

And as for four jacks for one input, they may be tielines, to put multiple mics in one channel. Never found a use for this myself, but I guess it's one of those "just in case" things.

On a lighter note, sounds like the same guy who built your space built ours


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## Chris15 (Apr 27, 2006)

OK, when you say that you have 4 sockets per channel, what type of sockets are these, Take the plug that is currently plugged into it, is it 1/4''? TS or TRS? When you say 4 sockets is this 2 at the front and 2 on the back? 

As far as testing it goes, have you a music source (CD etc.) and a DI Box? Plug it into one of the mic inputs and play until something happens. You may find it useful to write a manual of sorts to explain the idiosyncrasies of your space to future techs.


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## Chris15 (Apr 27, 2006)

Eboy87 said:


> And as for four jacks for one input, they may be tielines, to put multiple mics in one channel. Never found a use for this myself, but I guess it's one of those "just in case" things.



Doing this will cause all sorts of interesting things to occur, least of which will be the lack of control you have.

Do Not connect multiple inputs together, use a mixer. Splitting an output can be done in most cases without a problem.

As far as I was aware, is not a tie line simply a wire between two points?


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## mbandgeek (Apr 27, 2006)

Chris15 said:


> OK, when you say that you have 4 sockets per channel, what type of sockets are these, Take the plug that is currently plugged into it, is it 1/4''? TS or TRS? When you say 4 sockets is this 2 at the front and 2 on the back?
> 
> As far as testing it goes, have you a music source (CD etc.) and a DI Box? Plug it into one of the mic inputs and play until something happens. You may find it useful to write a manual of sorts to explain the idiosyncrasies of your space to future techs.



It has 2 1/4th" TRS connesrors on the front and 2 of them on the back.

So you're saying to keep a log of the changes. that is a good idea. I'll have to try that one day.


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## mbandgeek (Apr 27, 2006)

Eboy87 said:


> In this case, your best bet is gonna be trial and error, find a free day and spend it testing what is patched to where. Then, once you know what's coming from where, and where it goes, *LABEL IT, *so you don't have to go through this again.
> 
> And as for four jacks for one input, they may be tielines, to put multiple mics in one channel. Never found a use for this myself, but I guess it's one of those "just in case" things.
> 
> On a lighter note, sounds like the same guy who built your space built ours



this all depends on when your theater was built. ours was built in 1992.


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## Chris15 (Apr 27, 2006)

Not just a log of changes, but if you work out the way it is wired, write it down. Write down other useful things, breaker locations, Service dates, etc.

As far as the panel itself goes, my guess is that there are cables plugged into both of the sockets at the back. Probably one of those goes to the mic input wherever in the space and the other goes to a mixer input. From the fact that the front of your panel is not covered in leads, I would guess that they are either half normalled or fully normalled


CURLS said:


> You almost always have your incoming signals on the top row of a single unit and your outgoing on the bottom. Now there are 3 different types of internal connections that can happen in the back. First is just all open and ready to be patched which is the wisest and most basic. The second and somewhat usefull is half-normalled which means the top bottom pair are already connected internally w/o an external patch and then you can come out of that maintain the current internal patch while splitting it and sending it somewhere else on the front patch. Then the last is just fully nornalled which is again internally already plugged into each other but as soon as something is plugged into one it breaks the connection.[/CURLS]
> 
> So the plugs on the back in the top row are most likely to be the inputs from various places in the room and the bottom row probably feed to your mixer.
> 
> ...


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## Eboy87 (Apr 27, 2006)

Chris15 said:


> Doing this will cause all sorts of interesting things to occur, least of which will be the lack of control you have.
> 
> Do Not connect multiple inputs together, use a mixer. Splitting an output can be done in most cases without a problem.
> 
> As far as I was aware, is not a tie line simply a wire between two points?


 
Well, I call things differently than most people, but I do think that ours connect multiple inputs together, but that may be more for outputs, like splitting auxes to two different amps. Like I said, I've never used them, so I may be wrong.

BTW mbandgeek, our theater was built around '92-'95.


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## Chris15 (Apr 27, 2006)

Eboy87 said:


> Well, I call things differently than most people, but I do think that ours connect multiple inputs together, but that may be more for outputs, like splitting auxes to two different amps. Like I said, I've never used them, so I may be wrong.
> 
> BTW, our theater was built around '92-'95.



It may be as simple as whoever designed the space had a brain and put in spare lines for future use.

And unless your install was done by an actual audio company, I am not surprised that everything is the same. An audio company would likely use multicore cabling, but if they aren't consider the fact that buying by the roll is much cheaper, so it will be that they are all the same colour. Make sense?


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## Eboy87 (Apr 28, 2006)

Chris15 said:


> It may be as simple as whoever designed the space had a brain and put in spare lines for future use.
> 
> And unless your install was done by an actual audio company, I am not surprised that everything is the same. An audio company would likely use multicore cabling, but if they aren't consider the fact that buying by the roll is much cheaper, so it will be that they are all the same colour. Make sense?


 
Are you trying to make a statement about my competince?

Yes, I'm well aware of how companies do installs, but since half the equipment in our space has failed, and I'm running around trying to keep it going long enough till it is replaced, I have my doubts about the company that installed our system. Right now, there is a group renting our space for a choral concert who brought in thier own pro engineer, and even he can't figure out half of what the hell is going on in there. 

We've also just had someone from the said company come in to try and fix some of our problems, and, low and behold, half of what was "fixed" still doesn't work.

I havn't had time lately to test my theory on the tie lines, but I can tell you that they are labeled "tie line 1" "tie line 2", as opposed to "spare." I may not have been in this buisness as long as some, but I do know how to read and not make assumptions about others without knowing their background.


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## Chris15 (Apr 28, 2006)

I sorry if I have offended you. By the sounds of it the company that installed your system was incompetent. Do you know who installed it? I know that my school got the PA installed by a communications company and as a result of that it is very limiting.

As best I understand it, a tie line is simply a cable between A and B. May I ask, these cables that are labelled Tie Line 1, 2, etc. where do they go, or is that the purpose of your experiment. It seems that many installation companies simply wire it up and hope that no one will ever need to repatch it. Mine has no labelling either. I labelled it myself. But because of the lack of consideration of need, I only have 6 channels, so identifying them is not a problem.

Again, I apologise if I offended, I did not mean to.


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## mbandgeek (Apr 28, 2006)

Chris15 said:


> Not just a log of changes, but if you work out the way it is wired, write it down. Write down other useful things, breaker locations, Service dates, etc.
> 
> You say there are something like half a dozen leads plugged into it, I take it that you mean on the front? If, where are the other ends of these? That would help you to work out what they are.
> 
> It would seem as though EBoy87 was not being serious when he said that the same person built their space. I think that he intended the comment as though the installations are similar, all the cables going into the wall and out to who knows where, as you put it, "the black hole of sound".



No i mean the top row on the front, they just loop around and go into another hole on the top row on the front. No cables even go to the bottom row.


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## mbandgeek (Apr 28, 2006)

Chris15 said:


> I sorry if I have offended you. By the sounds of it the company that installed your system was incompetent. Do you know who installed it? I know that my school got the PA installed by a communications company and as a result of that it is very limiting.
> 
> As best I understand it, a tie line is simply a cable between A and B. May I ask, these cables that are labelled Tie Line 1, 2, etc. where do they go, or is that the purpose of your experiment. It seems that many installation companies simply wire it up and hope that no one will ever need to repatch it. Mine has no labelling either. I labelled it myself. But because of the lack of consideration of need, I only have 6 channels, so identifying them is not a problem.
> 
> Again, I apologise if I offended, I did not mean to.




no i wasn't offended. And i don't know who installed all of our theater stuff. It was a long time ago.


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## Chris15 (Apr 28, 2006)

Are there cables coming into the back?


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## Chris15 (Apr 28, 2006)

mbandgeek said:


> no i wasn't offended. And i don't know who installed all of our theater stuff. It was a long time ago.



I meant that to EBoy87.


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## Eboy87 (Apr 28, 2006)

I'm sorry I overreacted, it was a really bad first block in school today, don't ask. 

As soon as the current group leaves, I need to go through and make another list of what works and what doesn't. I'll experiment with the tie lines then, and post my findings. 

Again, sorry Chris15 that I overreacted.


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## Chris15 (Apr 29, 2006)

Eboy87 said:


> I'm sorry I overreacted, it was a really bad first block in school today, don't ask.
> 
> As soon as the current group leaves, I need to go through and make another list of what works and what doesn't. I'll experiment with the tie lines then, and post my findings.
> 
> Again, sorry Chris15 that I overreacted.



That's OK. We all have times when we are not as calm as we might otherwise be, I do it too. I look forward to hearing the results of your experiment. List of what don't work are good, but disconnecting those things where possible is even better...


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## mbandgeek (Apr 29, 2006)

Chris15 said:


> Are there cables coming into the back?



As far as i can see there is only 4 of them. but it is kind of dark in our booth. Next timr that i am in there i'll bring a flashlight.


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## Eboy87 (May 1, 2006)

Chris15 said:


> List of what don't work are good, but disconnecting those things where possible is even better...


 
Well, I'd love to, but most of what doesn't work is located in our two amp towers that has some power distro in it. I'm not to wild about the idea of crawling around in there with umpteen amps on and 120V 20a current swirling around me. I'll come out with Einstein's hair, or worse


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## Chris15 (May 2, 2006)

Eboy87 said:


> Well, I'd love to, but most of what doesn't work is located in our two amp towers that has some power distro in it. I'm not to wild about the idea of crawling around in there with umpteen amps on and 120V 20a current swirling around me. I'll come out with Einstein's hair, or worse



I don't know, you should have an RCD / GFCI to save you.  Personally, I would not have a problem with it IF I was able to isolate the power to it at an upstream breaker, but otherwise I too would prefer not to. If you want a little something to "motivate" your school's administration into getting someone up there, consider this: amplifiers have fans. Fans build up dust. Dust is flammable, so you need to clean your amp fans out every once in a while. Otherwise, the building might burn down. Similarly, I would think that broken equipment is probably generating heat which could also lead to fire. That might help get it fixed, but it sucks that Its not too easy to fix.


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## mbandgeek (May 2, 2006)

Eboy87 said:


> Well, I'd love to, but most of what doesn't work is located in our two amp towers that has some power distro in it. I'm not to wild about the idea of crawling around in there with umpteen amps on and 120V 20a current swirling around me. I'll come out with Einstein's hair, or worse



What exactally doesn't work?


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## mbandgeek (May 3, 2006)

Don't know if this will work but i'll try it anyway.
This is supposed to be the front of the patchbay.


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## Chris15 (May 3, 2006)

It didn't work.


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## mbandgeek (May 3, 2006)

I know. I don't know how to make it work.


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## Chris15 (May 3, 2006)

There was a topic on posting pictures at one point I thought. Could be wrong though. Anyone remember it? Search proved unsuccessful.


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## Eboy87 (May 3, 2006)

Actually, if you go to Image Shack, you can upload a pic, then link directly to it on the forums. I don't have the url here at school, but I'll post it when I get home.


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## Radman (May 3, 2006)

imageshack.us


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## mbandgeek (May 3, 2006)

Lets try this again


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## mbandgeek (May 3, 2006)

this is the front


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## mbandgeek (May 3, 2006)

Here are a couple of the back


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## GRCHSCAW (May 3, 2006)

mbandgeek said:


> I have noticed one of these on the sound equipment racks at my highschool. What does it do? I can't find anything on it anywhere on the internet.


Just like with lighting you can take any plug and route it to any channel on the board. 

For instance, Plug a microphone in the floor into channel 1 located stage right, that plug is hard wired into the patch-bay. Hopefully, it is labeled. You take the patch cable and plug it into the input 1 from stage, thats your microphone. and plug it into channel 1 on the mixing board.

sorry for the long explanation, just want you the get it. I hope that I haven't confused you more.


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## Chris15 (May 4, 2006)

Any chance of telling us what is on the blue labels on the top right of the front? That would probably help us work it out.


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## mbandgeek (May 4, 2006)

main out, aux send, aux out, master out, main out L R. the rest are blank.


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## Chris15 (May 4, 2006)

mbandgeek said:


> main out, aux send, aux out, master out, main out L R. the rest are blank.



Now we are getting somewhere. My guess is that your mixer outputs are coming out to those sockets. The patch leads then are likely connected to the inputs of amps or signal processing (EQ or the like). You should be able to test this, put a CD not too loud and disconnect them in turn and see what happens.


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## AVGuyAndy (May 5, 2006)

Where do those bundles terminate?


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## bryanr74 (May 6, 2006)

The most common form of patch bay in auditorium installations is a mic line patch bay.

It's purpose is to take all of the mic XLR plugs (typically located in floor pockets) and tie them into one place. Then the other row on the patch bay ties all of the channels of the snake to one place.

This way you can take floor pocket number 20 say - and patch it to channel one on your board/snake.


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## bryanr74 (May 6, 2006)

CURLS said:


> Ok by now i have watched you repeatedly ask the same questions over and over again and to get nowhere. I think Andy would have to agree that you are wasting our time in asking us silly questions about something that can easily be researched for days on the internet if not just go to your local music/audio store and ask. If you are really going to be this openly absent minded about finding answers to your questions please quit what you are doing so you do not take an output of an amp plug it into your patchbay and connect that output to the input of your console. LOOK, i just explained it all over again to you. Have fun in this industry!




First off - you are only 20. You have a horrendous attitude and you have not explained very well. You have told him that a patch bay has 1/4 male plugs - IT doesn't. It has 1/4" female plugs.

Secondly - if you are using industry standard ADC patch bays... they are really not true 1/4" plugs - they are military tip 1/4" point plugs.

I am quite sure you are not working as an A1 in this industry. I am absolutely sure that if you are - the company you work for sucks. 

Try being nicer and loose the attitude - or you will be finding life in this industry rough.


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## AVGuyAndy (May 6, 2006)

You DO realize this is a forum for high school kids, right? 

Who do you think you are, brand new to this forum, coming out and flaming someone?


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## bryanr74 (May 6, 2006)

AVGuyAndy said:


> You DO realize this is a forum for high school kids, right?
> 
> Who do you think you are, brand new to this forum, coming out and flaming someone?




First off - I was not talking to you. I was talking to Curlz. Second, I work in this industry professionally. I further have a doctorate in music production and accoustical engineering. So I feel I have a good bit of information to offer.

I apologize if you are offended - but Curlz was being rude and arrogant and speaking as if he is the world's gift to audio engineering - which by reading his posts - he is not.


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## mbandgeek (May 6, 2006)

AVGuyAndy said:


> Where do those bundles terminate?



they terminate at the black hole of sound, Hang on i have a pic.




that is as far as i can trace them. they all go into the wall there


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## mbandgeek (May 6, 2006)

I think i just gained a better understanding of this thing.

So if i want to send a channel to the tape deck to record something i just use a cable and connect one of the bottom holes to the top?

is that how it works?


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## bryanr74 (May 6, 2006)

mbandgeek said:


> I think i just gained a better understanding of this thing.
> 
> So if i want to send a channel to the tape deck to record something i just use a cable and connect one of the bottom holes to the top?
> 
> is that how it works?




That is correct - assuming the following....

The channel on the patchbay is tied to the tape deck inputs. Then you would be able to take a channel - again assuming they are connected to the patchbay and tie it direct into the tape deck.

This is possible with a patchbay - but not necessarily the best way to record a channel. By far the best way would be to take the direct output of the channel - assuming it has one - to record - or connect the tape deck to an aux - and turn up the channel you want recorded on that aux.


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## mbandgeek (May 6, 2006)

The tape deck inputs are on the patchbay. because there is some sends to the amps, and some leading somewhere else. i'll look at it tomorrow to see if i can get it to work.


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## AVGuyAndy (May 7, 2006)

First off, I don't care who you are talking to. Second, I could care less where you work. 

And you are also acting as if you are the world's gift to engineering. "I only use meyer, I hate jbl" blah blah... Oh how I hate gear snobs...


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## bryanr74 (May 7, 2006)

AVGuyAndy said:


> First off, I don't care who you are talking to. Second, I could care less where you work.
> 
> And you are also acting as if you are the world's gift to engineering. "I only use meyer, I hate jbl" blah blah... Oh how I hate gear snobs...



Uh - no - I am not the world's gift to engineering. I do know what I am doing. But that doesn't make me the worlds gift. Secondly - JBL does suck and that is all I was saying.

Third - I don't ONLY use Meyer - I also use KV2 audio at times and some EAW and Nexo Geo too. But I mostly use Meyer.

I don't care if you care where I work - I never told you - I will never tell where I work... cause for one - it is none of your business.


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## AVGuyAndy (May 7, 2006)

bryanr74 said:


> it is none of your business.



I never said it was.


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## mbandgeek (May 7, 2006)

Can you guys please this argument somewhere else.


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## Chris15 (May 8, 2006)

In terms off the patchbay, maybe you could tell us a little more about what equipment it is connected to. How many mixer channels? Do you have amps backstage? How many? The idea behind this being to work out what is going through your patchbay and so enable us to provide better guidance. Do you have cables coming out to your mixer? Are they the same colour as the ones on the back of the patchbay?


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## mbandgeek (May 8, 2006)

lets see, we have about 9 amps, a tape recorder, a couple sends that go back to the mixing board, an EQ, cd player and a minidisk player. they are all the same gray color.


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## Eboy87 (May 25, 2006)

I've got results from my tieline test. In the interest of being scientific, I'll post my method.

I took a mic, plugged it into the jack in the lightbooth next door (don't know why we have an input in there.) Patched it into a chennel on the board by itself. Then, tested a wireless HH mic to make sure it was working on a different channel. 

Knowing I had individual control of the mics, I unpatched them from their seperate channels, and into one of the tielines. When I tested the mics, one fader controlled the volume out of both mics. I also had one of the other techies run down to the stage with the HH to the stage to make sure I wasn't just picking up from the mics being in the same location. 

So, I can say that at least in our theater, the tielines in the patchbay do infact allow you to patch more than one mic into a single channel. 'Course, then you run into other issues, but, oh well, I didn't design the place.


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## Chris15 (May 26, 2006)

Eboy87 said:


> I took a mic, plugged it into the jack in the lightbooth next door (don't know why we have an input in there.)



You don't use a 3 pin comms system? Otherwise, someone thought it was a good idea.

With regards to plugging 2 mics into the same channel, the problems are not being able to control the mics individually, as well as the potential to run into funky impedance issues. The general rule is that you can split an output into 2, but to combine 2, you need a mixer. Though if you have two inputs connected together but you only ever use one at a time, then you should be fine.


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## Eboy87 (May 26, 2006)

Chris15 said:


> With regards to plugging 2 mics into the same channel, the problems are not being able to control the mics individually, as well as the potential to run into funky impedance issues. The general rule is that you can split an output into 2, but to combine 2, you need a mixer. Though if you have two inputs connected together but you only ever use one at a time, then you should be fine.


 
That's exactly what I was told, but it was late for me last night posting, and I had just gotten back from a rehersal, and couldn't think very well.

With regards to the mic input in the light booth, yes, we use the 3-pin xlr Clear-Com system, but those have their own dedicated inputs, marked (surprisingly) I/C #(insert number here) for intercom. The mic inputs say Mic # or the like. The light booth has both. Oh well, in hindsight, it's not that important.


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## Chris15 (May 27, 2006)

The important thing is that you now know what things do. May I recommend that you write this down for future techs.


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## Eboy87 (May 27, 2006)

Chris15 said:


> May I recommend that you write this down for future techs.


 
One step ahead of you and one hop to the right. I've got a book of notes and observations and suggestions that I've been working on, as after I finish this show, the crew is on their own, I'm headed off to college. I've also been trying to train the new guys as well as I can.


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