# Lighting a 100+ person choir



## volkswatson (Aug 13, 2009)

What recommendations do you all have to light a large choir (100+)? Could we do this with LED PARS? I really want the flexibility of color, but need it to be bright. We have an area to hang from that's no more than 30' from them (45 deg).

We used 6 MAC600s last year for a production, & they worked great, but those are a little pricy.

We use an etc board as well as Martin Controllers (light jockey) for DMX stuff, so I'd like the LED PARs to work nice with Light Jockey, until we can get a real board.

TIA


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## hsaunier (Aug 13, 2009)

I'm sure some of the light guys will chime in. I have not seen a budget LED par that is very kind to flesh tones. They are great for warming walls and truss.


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## shiben (Aug 13, 2009)

What kind of budget do you have, and what kind of power requirements do you have? How big is the stage? At our venue, we usually use 40-50 Source 4s for frontlight on a choir of similar size, and then use 10 or so fresnels for downlight, plus any colored lights we would like. Scrollers tend to be my favorite option for colors, because the colors tend to look better than LEDs (also they are cheaper), and you can keep the flexibility of color while having a very nice looking wash. What did you use the MAC600s for previously?


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## jxgriffi (Aug 13, 2009)

I have to agree with Shiben...Source 4's with R119 to smooth the edges. If you want color, then add Morpheus M-Faders for color mixing.

The only LED unit that I would even ATTEMPT this with would be the Reveal (which isn't in full production yet). I wouldn't consider ANY LED fixtures for something like this.


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## theatre4jc (Aug 13, 2009)

Typically an LED will not get you enough of a punch at that throw distance. I've used some pixel pars at a 20' throw and it was bright enough for the audience to see well but the camera hated it. We picked 20' because at 25' we started loosing to many lumens. Plus for the cost of an LED that is high enough quality to what you need you could probably purchase a couple automated wash fixtures. Depending on power, actual stage size, and how exactly you want to use the fixtures I would recommend that route. LEDs will not have the beam size that any move head wash unit would have. Plus the automated fixture will have far more lumens. 

At my church my choir director keeps asking for more color, I say give me more money. He saw me purchase some cheap LEDs for a truss warmer in our "contemporary worship space" and asked if we could use them on the choir. I at least held back my laughter. 

I'll assume you are using Source 4s for your normal face light. If you can't afford movers maybe purchase a few S4 Pars for your color. Another thing that might work is if you don't need movement, some color changing fixtures like the Robe Color Mix 575. Great little light for a color wash and cheaper than a moving head with the same wattage lamp.


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## shiben (Aug 13, 2009)

Personally, unless you really want movement, I would shy away pretty hard core from any movers in the rig. I was recently at a church that used exclusively movers for lighting their choir, and it just looked off. They were bright and had a lot of colors, but I felt that the even wash just wasnt there. Also, keep in mind that the light will probably be a lot cooler than a Source 4... Seachangers, the aforementioned M-Changers, Apollo or Chroma-Q or Wybron scrollers, all mounted on PARs or Fresnels, would give you some awesome color washes without the pain of movers, and your white wash would look good too. I guess the real question comes down to: what can you afford, and what will your facility support in terms of power? At our old concert hall (now under renovation), we had 120 channels of dimming, and could afford to throw a few dozen Source 4s and Fresnels at the issue, but if you only have 12 channels on 2.4 kW each, that is obviously going to affect your decision as well. 

@jxgriffi, what about the ETC Selador unit for color, with a solid conventional white wash from the front? The color looked pretty well rendered out of the Vivid, although I didnt have an HD camera to check how that would look during the demo.


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## Darthrob13 (Aug 13, 2009)

Being married to someone who sings and directs choir...avoid coloring the choir if you can.

Something to pop flesh tones yes....R26 no.


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## tcahall (Aug 13, 2009)

I completely agree with Darthrob13. Choirs are pretty in pink. BA, etc. Your favorite flavor of flattering color. Bands get the movers, when choirs want movement, they move.

Tim.

P.S. evenmess is everything. If you have the option of a couple of key lights (movers could be great here), to accent a soloist, great.


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## octobersky (Aug 17, 2009)

My suggestion is contact RevEAL for a demonstration.


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## LightStud (Aug 17, 2009)

By my calculations, the RevEAL fixture, with Peak Candela of 19,670 and a Field Angle of 27°, is less bright than a 300PAR56/MFL with MBCP of 24,000 and a Field Angle of 34°x19°.


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## SteveB (Aug 18, 2009)

Don't think gear, think design. The event is NOT about the lighting, it's about folks singing music with (usually) a religious theme.

1) Try to achieve the 5 goals - 

- Selective Visibility. Keep the singer(s) well lit in face tones with sufficient intensity (or not) to see the facial expressions and lips move. The audience will wonder why they can't hear well when it's 'cause they can't see the particular people singing, including the soloists.

- Revelation of Form. Keep the choir well lit from assorted angles, side, backs, etc... using color possibly on the side and back to held establish mood.

- Composition. Keep the overall picture in mind and pay attention to the background, maybe using that as the surface to achieve some variation in the lighting to achieve...

- Mood. All of the above done creativity and with taste to help the singers and music.

- Illusion of Nature. The light should appear "natural." No weird colors, specially in the frontlight. The source should probably be above the subject, rather than footlights or shin-kickers.

The choice of gear becomes the tools to achieve the above. If LED's are useful as back lighting and/or toning of walls, then use that tool. Ditto any movers, back specials on soloists, breakups on the choir during slower numbers, whatever is appropriate as dictated by the music.

My $.02

Steve B.


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## shiben (Aug 18, 2009)

Good point on that. Any gear choices should be motivated by the event and what your trying to do with it.


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## SteveB (Aug 18, 2009)

SteveB said:


> - Illusion of Nature. The light should appear "natural." No weird colors, specially in the frontlight. The source should probably be above the subject, rather than footlights or shin-kickers.
> 
> .



Hey Derek, you can't do that to me, fixing my mistakes !.

I was actually never taught "Illusion of Nature" as one of the *FOUR* goals of lighting, and am not totally happy with it as it is actually (in my mind) part of Revelation of Form, which to me, encompasses angle (one of the tools - more below) and which then would allow for the natural or unnatural direction of the beam (and resulting shadow(s)) falling on the lit object. Thus your suggestion to avoid foot or shins comes from using the angle tool to provide for Revelation of Form. 

The tools (as taught to me by Billy Mintzer at SUNY Purchase) were:

- Angle
- Color
- Intensity
- Movement

I have always thought that what was missing was Quality, as in the type of light that emanates from a particular lighting instruments, with a PAR having a different quality to the light then a hard edged ellipsoidal, which is different then a fresnel, which is different then a soft light as used in film, or a flourescent, etc... 

I also now add a separate definition of Movement, which back then was mostly about cue timing (and somewhat about the beam movement of a following spotlight), but which now is also about beam movement in air as both a scenic element as well as a tool of selective visibility. 

Thus I stand by my FOUR goals of lighting.

Steve B.


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## octobersky (Aug 18, 2009)

@LightStud: Actually the 300PAR56/MFL has a comparable lumen output to the RevEAL fixture according to Lamp,300par56/Mfl,300w - Incandescent Lamps - Lamps - Lighting : Grainger Industrial Supply, with both having ~3800 lumens. Candlepower isn't a good comparison given the difference in beam distribution. Of course every application is different, but from my perspective the RevEAL fixture provided acceptable output in white and exceeded expectations in rendering and hues. 

@volkswatson: Bottom line - While the fixture worked perfect for our needs, I suggest asking for a demonstration and see if it achieves your "4 Goals" (as suggested by Steve B).


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## derekleffew (Aug 18, 2009)

Sorry, SteveB. From now on, I'll allow your mistakes to remain for all to see.

I was taught from Bellman, _Lighting the Stage, Art and Practice_. Five Functions of Lighting, as above. I've seen some texts that list up to seven, adding "reinforcing the theme," "time of day," "locale," and so on. Today in my classes I teach IFCB (because it fits the control console!) and movement.

As for Controllable Properties, McCandless' _A Method of Lighting the Stage_ says Intensity, Color, Distribution, and Control. I was taught Intensity, Color, Distribution, and Movement. Using "Distribution" addresses your concerns, as it encompasses both Angle and Quality.

But hey, there are no wrong answers; unless _I'm_ grading _you_, or vice-versa.


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## FMEng (Aug 19, 2009)

I have done quite a few choirs, so let me toss out a thought or two. First, it doesn't matter how fabulous it looks if the choir cannot see their music and see the conductor. You can use front lighting at a 45 degree or higher angle, but not too intensely because it'll blind them. The musicians want strong downlighting to eliminate shadows, again to see music clearly. Some side and backlighting is effective, but only if you have the downlighting in place, too. Heat is an issue, too. Make the stage really hot with lights and you will find they will be happy to perform without any lighting.

Starting to see a pattern? Do what you do un-obtrusively without interfering with the work of the musicians.

Talk with the conductor about what you would like to do. Don't get into technical detail but find out about cues, entrances, intermissions, etc. They generally don't think of how what they do affects tech.


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## TimMiller (Aug 19, 2009)

I lit a chior a while back with around 60 chroma q color blocks and a few source 4's. I learned several things. A. The audience and director loved it. B. The video guys wanted to kill me. C. The chior members couldnt see anything, and their complaints were answered by A. Bascially its not your job to see but to sing.
In my opinion it could have been done much better using mulitiple S4's but in the venue i didnt have much of a choice (not enough easily accessable dimmers, not enough fixtures, and not enough places to hang the fixtures due to the way the space was designed) and i did have the led's already infront of the chior b/c the chior is not normally there.


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## church (Aug 19, 2009)

I agree with FMENG, I also light choir events on a regular basis and the event is about the choir and helping to establish the mood they want to convey to their audience through their music. They want to be able to see their choir director, their music and for their audience to see them. It is true they do not want heat and they do not want shadows and they do not want to be dazzled.

I use colour on the wall behind for mood, from the front and above and behind I use colour only to enhance their faces and to give form to them. Lighting from above is also needed to eliminate shadow on their music. I usually use fresnels from the front and floods from behind and above.

I also light the conductor from the sides at 45 degrees from above using small fresnels set to a spot at an appropriate dimmer setting. the purpose of this is to highlight the conductors arms. I found that even though the conductor is on stage with the choir and lit with them that the choir found that this helped them to see the conductors arms. I do this every time and it works much better than just increasing the overall lighting level.

good luck - I always enjoy doing the choir events just that bit different and a challange in a different way to opther events.


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## NevilleLighting (Aug 22, 2009)

[/QUOTE]
- Illusion of Nature. The light should appear "natural." No weird colors, specially in the frontlight. The source should probably be above the subject, rather than footlights or shin-kickers.

Steve B.[/QUOTE]

The questions of "Illusion of Nature" is always a good one. I'd choose to expand that definition. As a human species we all have similar experiences in life, such as cold is blue and red/yellow fire is hot. Our experiences lead us to fairly predictable reactions to color in light. Beyond nature we have visual stereotypes that bring out various connections, such as footlights having a period feel, or the shadowless, bland light from those lovely fluorescent tubes having another feel. Thus, a nice, devil colored R26 frontlight on a choir might not be the best choice. It will look quite unnatural and disconcerting to an audience, even though they might not know why. Keep the fleshtone frontlights. You can play with color with the backlights. Your audience will more readily accept that. Also, the previous comment about seeing and hearing should be heeded. If the audience can't see, they will have trouble hearing. Not only that, but you have to consider yourself to be the cinematographer of the stage, framing the shot and helping the audience know where to look. 

Many directors will love interesting ideas. That is not always a good thing. I try to keep in mind that I am working for an audience, not a director. After all, they are the ones paying their hard earned dollars to see what you are doing. If I am lighting Les Mis I am deeply involved in making a dark, mysterious picture. If I am lighting a children's dance recital the light levels are very camera friendly so the parents can take picture of their kids. By "getting out of my own head" and concentrating more on the overall needs of the performance at hand, I have made a more successful career as an LD. While a large choir might make a really great backdrop, perhaps treating them as scenery is not the best approach. Reveal their form. Make them visible, and then work with some back or sidelight to paint some color.


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