# Education a must or not??



## TechNinja (Jun 12, 2011)

Hi all,
I just finished my first year of undergrad as a theatre student, and well, I can't decide what I want for next year. I don't like some of the ways the theatre is run, and at times I feel like I really learned nothing. And I'm taking the fall semester off this year, and don't know if I want to go back. I feel like I don't NEED a degree in theatre to get far in this industry, but am looking at getting an Associates in Electric at a local tech school. But, I am worried that is not enough to get me where I want to be in the world of light and sound design. 
So I guess that my question is, those of you who've 'been there, done that', do you think that its a necessity to get at least my Bachelors in Technical theare/design, or will I be able to make a living off of just an associates? 
Thanks!


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## ScottT (Jun 12, 2011)

This came up on the SML a few weeks ago and there were quite a lot of differing opinions. The general consensus in the end (if there ever was one) was that having a degree will help you get your foot in the door & help you make the connections needed in this industry. I'd say that if you're taking out a huge amount of money in loans to pay for school then you shouldn't do school because you'll be paying off those loans for a long while. But if your family is helping to pay for school then by all means, go for it.

You might get a degree and learn nothing or you might end up attending The School of Hard Knocks. It all depends what *you* get out of it.


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## Footer (Jun 12, 2011)

Read these, they will at least get you started.... Its a huge decision.

http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/...ant-your-college-degree-your-career-path.html
http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/...q-recomendations-about-college-education.html
Getting a Job in the Industry


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## gafftaper (Jun 12, 2011)

This is a favorite topic of mine with students. There are three factors that mostly control your destiny as a theater technician:
1) Education
2) Hard Work and who you impress or don't impress with your skills or lack of skills
3) Getting lucky with a random opportunity out of the blue. 

In a perfect world these factors should be in balance. However the more you have of one factor the less you need of others. You don't need a degree to get work in this field but it will take you a lot longer to get where you want to go, you will have to work harder to get there, and you are going to have to get a little lucky. 

The big thing to consider is what if tech theater doesn't work out for you? Trying to change careers with only a high school diploma in you pocket can be devastating. My advice is to always get as much education as you can realistically afford. 

It sounds to me more like your problem is less the degree and more the institution you are attending. So consider changing universities. 

But before you do anything, talk to some people who are graduating and ask them if it gets better. Also find a staff member you trust and ask him or her for advice. That person knows you a lot better than we don. It's not uncommon for all the cool work and the best educational classes to be given to the upperclassmen and the freshman just get the crumbs.


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## TechNinja (Jun 12, 2011)

ScottT said:


> This came up on the SML a few weeks ago and there were quite a lot of differing opinions. The general consensus in the end (if there ever was one) was that having a degree will help you get your foot in the door & help you make the connections needed in this industry. I'd say that if you're taking out a huge amount of money in loans to pay for school then you shouldn't do school because you'll be paying off those loans for a long while. But if your family is helping to pay for school then by all means, go for it.
> 
> You might get a degree and learn nothing or you might end up attending The School of Hard Knocks. It all depends what *you* get out of it.


 
Yea, no, it's all out of pocket and loans. Thanks!


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## TechNinja (Jun 12, 2011)

And Gafftaper, I will have to look into that. But Im just wondering if getting an Associates in like something an electrician would get; just delving deeper into strictly the electirs of everything, since I am light/sound, would help or if it would just be a waste of time and money.


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## metti (Jun 13, 2011)

I'm not going to try and give you advice on this decision as I am completely unqualified to comment on this topic but I will suggest that some clarification around what your career goals are could help you (and others) to best answer this question. From what I have seen, a BA or BFA is pretty much a minimum level of education for theatre designers but YRMV.


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## gafftaper (Jun 13, 2011)

TechNinja said:


> And Gafftaper, I will have to look into that. But Im just wondering if getting an Associates in like something an electrician would get; just delving deeper into strictly the electirs of everything, since I am light/sound, would help or if it would just be a waste of time and money.


It definitely would be helpful. In this industry everything is helpful at some point, the more diversere your training the better. The question is how much harder will it be for you to find work with only that vs. a BA or MFA? There is a certain amount of knowledge you need to have to get work. If you don't aquire that knowledge in school you have to get lucky and find someone in the industry who likes you and your work ethic enough to take you on as a pet project and teach you on the job. Not saying it can't be done but the less education you have the harder it is to get your big break. 

As Metti said it also limits what kind of work you are likely to get. If you want to be a union stage hand, a master electrician, or a board op the rest of your life, then you probably have enough education. But it may be 10 years until you can work your way up the list far enough to make a living wage. If you want to be a designer then Metti is right you probably need a BA/BFA. You can get lucky, find a tiny little community theater to work in as a volunteer, and work your way up as you get more work impressing people to eventually getting bigger and bigger paid gigs. But it's going to be a long hard road.


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## museav (Jun 13, 2011)

I agree that it can depend on your long term goals. And a Gaff noted, it can also depend on the individual, someone with a rare gift and natural aptitude may do quite well without much formal education, someone still skilled but slightly less blessed may need greater education to get the same opportunities.

I'd also not judge the long term educational situation based solely on your first year. At some colleges the Freshman year is much more a time students to get acclimated to college and to get them all up to a common point. A good example is that when I was in college all Engineering majors started as Freshman Engineering majors, for which the curriculum was primarily general science and prep, and every Freshman had to take an English and Chemistry course each semester. It was only those that made it to their Sophomore year that then started in a specific Engineering discipline program.

I'm not sure about the potential value of something like an Associates degree in Electronics or Electrical. I'm sure it would benefit you in terms of your personal knowledge and if that lead to becoming a licensed Electrician or a PE in Electrical Engineering then it would have value from that perspective. It also could certainly help as far as having some potential 'Plan B' career options. However, I'm not sure of the value as it relates specifically to theatre, especially if their is little relevant practical experience associated with it.


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## Footer (Jun 13, 2011)

TechNinja said:


> And Gafftaper, I will have to look into that. But Im just wondering if getting an Associates in like something an electrician would get; just delving deeper into strictly the electirs of everything, since I am light/sound, would help or if it would just be a waste of time and money.


 
It could help, however, there is one huge problem with it. The physical electricity level is a very, very, small part of what a good entertainment electrician needs. There are plenty of great electricians out there that don't know what a sine wave looks like or how a motor is wound. Going to a tech school to become and industrial/residential electrician is going to teach you a lot, however, its not going to teach you how to wire a socapex connector, how to focus a light, how to tear down a leko, how to operate a lighting console, how to rig in a counterweight theatre, or how to best run a crew. A technician that can tie in 3 phase power safely is useful, however, that task takes less then 5 minutes. You then have a technician that is pretty useless the rest of the call if they can't go and do other things. Not saying the experience will be useless, but it won't get you into the industry that quickly. If you combine tech school with community theatre work and other low end freelance work you might be able to piece a worth while resume' together.


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## dbthetd (Jun 13, 2011)

So I have a long standing "it depends" flavor answer to this type of query and I think the time has come to change my tune. I don't believe I am saying this, but I think I've finally come round:

You will need to go to school to become a successful professional designer.

I just don't see the working your way up path leading there any longer. I guess there's still the right place/right time "struck by lightening" route. Maybe you become a rock and roll LD if you hook up with a band at the start and hang with them - but otherwise I just think you have to have school now. It'll be too hard to get the internships or the assistantships that lead to where you want to be when all your competition has the networking and the resume provided by school.

I'm not enthused about this, and like I hedge above there will be exceptions, but I am convinced that for the bulk of the people this is now true.

BUT

First I'm not sure if your goal is really design.

AND

Really I think the bigger question in the current paradigm is not "if" but rather "when" and "what."

You are unhappy with your current training situation. You've elected to stop. Good choice. Many people in our field feel like they have to feel bad to be making headway when really they should be realizing they are in the wrong place.

How's this as a new gauge...

Rather than ask what training you need to be ultimately successful look for the work you want, and then if you're getting that work - do that work and be happy. If you get to the point where you're not getting the work you want, look at why you're not getting the work and make a change - if that change involves training you'll then have the incentive to get through it, and you will be sure there is something to learn that you need to learn (be it BFA, BA, MFA, Associates, or just specialized training).

Not everyone is ready for the same kind of training at the same time. Waiting until you've really identified what you need can't hurt you.


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## ruinexplorer (Jun 13, 2011)

TechNinja said:


> So I guess that my question is, those of you who've 'been there, done that', do you think that its a necessity to get at least my Bachelors in Technical theare/design, or will I be able to make a living off of just an associates?
> Thanks!



Yes, I have "been there, done that", but not as a designer per se. I only received an Associates degree in theater. However, I worked my way into the field and it took longer than some of my counterparts who received a BA or BFA. Even though my plan had not been to work in theater while going to school (I was able to get scholarships for being a technician while taking anthropology classes), I also didn't feel like I learned a lot that first year. As museAV stated, the freshman classes are there to be introductory and get everyone on the same level. However, some programs will allow you to do extra work on the actual productions to allow you to excel if you are already advanced. 

Something to think about: if you want to become a designer, you are looking to go into a very narrow field that has an extreme amount of competition. However, training to become a Master Electrician or an A1 in audio will offer you more opportunities and may give you the opportunities to use your artistic talents for small designs or the ability to implement designs for a specific space. One LORT theater company that I worked with would produce the same show in two different cities for their entire season. This would require the Master Electrician and A1 to take the designs created by the designer for one theater and recreate it in a new space. Since they were a LORT B company, they decided to not pay the designer to return for a rehang. Also, when on tour, this is the same type of deal.

Anyhow, if you plan on designing for any educational facility, many city run facilities, or most repertory companies, a BA or more likely a BFA will be the minimum requirement for employment. If you are working in the corporate environment, then you won't have to worry about that as much. 

While I disagree that you can't work your way up, you definitely limit your opportunities. Like Footer stated, having the electrical background is useful, especially at the higher levels of theater, but not as useful for the basic technician. On the other hand, I recommend that all students get very familiar with networking. After all, we continue to borrow from the computer industry to connect all of our components. Over the next few years, the need for qualified technicians who are computer and network proficient will increasingly become necessary. This may even prove to be where the old union system starts to break down with experience superseding membership on certain jobs.


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## DuckJordan (Jun 13, 2011)

not to muddy the waters at all but, she is actually referring to me. We've been dating for some time now and unfortunately left out information (whether on accident or she just didn't know I'm not sure). That said, When I was attending I was not allowed to participate based upon academic standards (school isn't really my thing). After finding out about why they were not allowing me to participate, and reading what they used for the "rule" about it, it turned out to be either a miss interpretation or just plain we don't care about freshman students. 

I was on academic probation for my high school GPA, I later found out through a letter they sent me after that they were not supposed to base my current performance opportunities on anything out side of their educational campus. So with all that said, I didn't really feel I learned much of anything taking their Lighting Design 1 nor the advanced classed normally reserved for seniors and Grad students of Lighting 2. I also took both of their Technical theater courses, Same denotation 1 being basic and 2 supposedly advanced and didn't learn anything from either.

Now for the financial standpoint. All of the school is being paid for by loans, and at roughly 13k a year for school, I know completing the four and now would be four and a half would be way out of my current budget comfort zone. The reason why I feel I should go for the Associates in Electrical Engineering at a local tech school is its about 14k for two years, which at the end I would receive my associates upon completion.

As footer said and may help with someone else's standing, I do know how to hang focus and troubleshoot quite a bit of lighting technology. I also know quite a bit about sound, enough to run a few smaller gigs. I also would like to point out while there were some connections that could be made through the school they are all local and not a very fulfilling career option in my opinion.

So my question is this:

In my situation would you continue going to a state school (due to financial issues), or would you elect to go to a cheaper tech school that you know several people who have graduated and are making more than enough to live off of?


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## Footer (Jun 13, 2011)

Putting on my "used to be a teacher" cap....

If schools not your thing, its either time to make it your thing or just go out and start trying to get work. There is no point in sinking money into an education unless you are going to own it and really get something out of it. A tech school is not going to be any easier. In fact, you might hate it even more. You will learn a ton of stuff that you are not going to be able to figure out how to apply to what you actually want to do. Therefore, I don't think you will have any stake in it and won't do well. So, if you were one of my students with the "school is not my thing" idea, I would tell you to go out into the world and start working. You will have to know that its going to be a lot of work and you will probably never be rich. However, you won't be 50k in debt with nothing to show for it. 

So, in my view, don't worry about what others have done. Don't go to school. Start working. No point in wasting your money if you aren't going to own your education and get everything you can out of it.


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## gafftaper (Jun 14, 2011)

Footer said:


> If schools not your thing, its either time to make it your thing or just go out and start trying to get work. There is no point in sinking money into an education unless you are going to own it and really get something out of it. A tech school is not going to be any easier. In fact, you might hate it even more. You will learn a ton of stuff that you are not going to be able to figure out how to apply to what you actually want to do.
> 
> So, in my view, don't worry about what others have done. Don't go to school. Start working. No point in wasting your money if you aren't going to own your education and get everything you can out of it.


 
We have reached a rare moment when Gaff and Footer completely agree. Duck there is a point that you have to say this is *MY* education, and *I will* be successful regardless of the situation. If you don't see yourself as being able to do that, getting yourself thousands of dollars in debt is not going to help your situation. In such a case the best thing might be to go out and just work. Maybe in a year or two you'll change your mind and be ready to return for additional education, but for right now, it doesn't seem like you really want it.


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## ruinexplorer (Jun 14, 2011)

Another thing to consider is relocation. You may not be able to get the education that you want where you are currently, but that doesn't mean that education is not available. Even if you decide to get the education of "hard knocks", you may need to consider moving. Getting somewhere that has the opportunities to learn while you work may be quite a ways out of your geographic area, but becoming the big fish in a small pond can trap you. 

The other thing to consider with education is that internships are a great resource that are not available if you are not a student (consider the Cirque internships which list getting school credit as a requirement). As has been stated previously, getting an internship can be one of the best ways to make the connections that you need to get ahead in this business. 

If you can't move or afford an out of state schools (check for good neighbor programs for schools that waive the out of state portion of admission), that's understandable. Keep an eye out for other industry specific training which can make you more desirable to employers.


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## Chris15 (Jun 15, 2011)

I'm not going to comment one way or the other, the concept is something I'm wrestling with in different circumstances (have a job, don't really need to continue on to getting my degree to keep it vs getting the degree to keep my options open later and my brain cells ticking over).

But the one piece of advice I think might be most helpful to you is to say that IF you do decide to discontinue schoool, make sure you do so the right way. Make sure you follow whatever the procedure is with your educational institution to withdraw. That way it will make it as simple as can be if you do decide at some stage in the future to 'go back to school' be it in the same discipline or something completely different. That's the way the academic world operates, forms, procedures and generic death by paperwork...


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