# "Suicide Cable"



## renegadeblack (Apr 4, 2010)

I had an earlier post which was deemed unsafe, so I'm not going to link to the original article as it described in detail how to make such a cable.

I'm wondering what people's opinions are on a "suicide cable" is, we're talking male-to-male mains power here. Most likely used to go from a generator to a single circuit in a home during a power outage. 

Let's assume that the wiring in the facility is the same throughout the entire circuit (in the original article it was mentioned that in some installations, it isn't the same gauge wire through the entire circuit, which sounds a bit fishy to me).

Let's also assume that there is some sort of circuit breaker on the line that will cut the power if too much current is drawn.

Lastly, we're also going to assume that any applicable mains breakers have also been cut so that we don't fry and kind linesmen trying to restore power.

(I just want to know purely for the circumstance of the cord, nothing else.)

Do you think that:

A) No way, no how.
B) Yes, but the cable must be immediately destroyed.
C) Sure, but put warning labels on the cord to let people know that it shouldn't be touched.
D) Use it, if someone doesn't know what it's for, then they should know better than to touch it.
E) Other.


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## venuetech (Apr 4, 2010)

It was my understanding the term for this type of cable was "*WidowMaker*"
I would recomend if any one ever comes across one of these remove it from service without question and remove at least one if not both connectors from the cable. in question.


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## Footer (Apr 4, 2010)

When I was still living at home we had one of these cables just to from a generator outside. We would usually lose power at least once a month during the warmer months. When we had a power outage, we would flip the mains breaker for the house, unplug the 220v stick welder in the garage, hook this cable up to the welder plug, throw the cable through a window, go outside and hook it up to the generator and finally fire up the generator. It worked great. It allowed us to power both legs in our house, keep our fridge going, and allow for some lights to be on in the house, and allow our sewer "grinder pump" to still run. We could not run the AC, but we could survive without our plumbing backing up. I have also used these cables to feed power into a neighbors house from a generator. 

We always kept our cable tied to our generator so it could not be mistaken for a regular cable. 

Are these cables a great solution, no. However, do they allow you to keep hundreds or thousands of dollars of food from spoiling, your basement from flooding, your sewer from backing up, and water running? Yes. Desperate times call for desperate measures.


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## MNicolai (Apr 4, 2010)

Lex Products came up with a safer way to do that with their power input panels. They are designed to allow feeds from generators directly into electrical systems. It's likely overkill for the standard home, but it operates on the same premise -- minus the whole fried chicken smell and electrocution and such.


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## waynehoskins (Apr 5, 2010)

I think it largely depends on now controlled an area is involved -- your home with the generator, for example, is probably okay since you know what's going on. There are also Camlok turnarounds and various flavors of tees for use when inevitably the neutral and ground wires have to be turned around; these are also probably okay since we presume anyone working with the feeder knows what's going on.

A suicide cable should probably be clearly marked on both ends as well, most especially if it's of any length, where both ends might not always be in sight of each other.

But in general, especially in a relatively uncontrolled area (such as the theatre cable rack) I think it's a bad idea, too much chance of someone thinking it's a regular extension cord when it's not.


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## MNicolai (Apr 5, 2010)

I think it's especially dangerous, controlled area or not. If you have a cable that, of every 3 years (1095 days), you _might_ use once for two or three days, you have the 1092 days of the year that the cable might accidentally get used for something. By the time someone plugs it in at one end, without noticing that there's no female connector, the natural tendency when they get to the opposite end of the cable, 100' away, is to curiously pick up the connector and stare at it in a confused way. This is about when someone touches the hot lead and electrocutes themselves.

In a situation with regular use, you always have to worry that someone will grab the wrong cable for the wrong thing. With intermittent use, you'll simply forget that you have anything to worry about -- that's when it gets dangerous.

I had a service technician a couple years ago drop off some L5-20 to 2P&G adapters for our new install. For some reason, they had a brilliant idea to install six L5-20 circuits in an otherwise 2P&G house. Before I knew it, he already had them plugged into the circuits. Without even thinking about it, I went up to them, grabbed the connector, and looked at it funny. I immediately knew something was wrong with it, but couldn't place what. When I realized it was that it was a male to male adapter, I practically threw the thing to the ground, unplugged it, and handed it to the service tech. He had made six of these without realizing what he had done, and between his inattention and my curious demeanor, I'm very lucky to have not gotten hurt. Thank goodness I had not actually touched the pins on the 2P&G and that the circuits were at 0%. (@ 0% meaning I still could've gotten shocked given the nature of dimming sources, but I would've been able to walk away without needing to visit the ER.)

Just like nobody plans on spilling their coffee on the light console, no one ever plans on touching the energized connectors of a suicide cable. Yet a moment's inattention or curiosity can very quickly become the death of you.

I would never have a problem using a suicide cable when I remembered to worry about it being a male to male cable. It's when I forget to worry that I'd regret ever allowing myself to work with one.

Additional note: Marking the cable as a suicide cable is great, but labels fall off and when was the last time you so much as glanced at a the warning labels on store-bought extension cords? Having a suicide cable around, no matter what the pretenses, leaves too much risk riding on not enough risk prevention. There's no room to say "Well you should've looked at the label first," when the person is already twitching and seizuring on the ground from the electrical shock.


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## erosing (Apr 5, 2010)

It can be useful, but it needs to at the very least be marked very well and seperated. 



> Additional note: Marking the cable as a suicide cable is great, but labels fall off and when was the last time you so much as glanced at a the warning labels on store-bought extension cords? Having a suicide cable around, no matter what the pretenses, leaves too much risk riding on not enough risk prevention. There's no room to say "Well you should've looked at the label first," when the person is already twitching and seizuring on the ground from the electrical shock.



This would be a good application I think for some of those spare lockout tags and safety lockouts that are shoved in a desk drawer somewhere.


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## TheDonkey (Apr 5, 2010)

Any chance they make some form of lockable cover for cable plugs?

Like something made of durable plastic with a lock.

It's not a perfect solution, but if someone's adamant about making the cables, between the lockable covers and obnoxiously big tags beside them explaining that this is a suicide cable, it might not be that big a problem.


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## derekleffew (Apr 5, 2010)

TheDonkey, If Amazon don't have it, you don't need it!



Amazon.com: Lockout Plug Covers: Industrial & Scientific


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## Footer (Apr 5, 2010)

MNicolai said:


> I think it's especially dangerous, controlled area or not. If you have a cable that, of every 3 years (1095 days), you _might_ use once for two or three days, you have the 1092 days of the year that the cable might accidentally get used for something.



I lived out in the middle of nowhere where power outages are a fact of life. Even in the rather large subdivision I lived in when I was younger with buried utilities we still lost power at least once, if not twice a month during storm season. We had one of these cables around my house during all of my childhood and I am still here today. If you keep the cable put away and marked it won't fall into the wrong hands. Also, if you let everyone know if your family "don't touch this", they won't. If they can't follow that simple instruction you should probably take all of the loose change and silverware out of the house as well because they could stick that in an outlet just as fast. I had plenty of stuff in the garage of my house that could have killed me as a kid such as solvents, welders, the occasional engine block, buckets of anti freeze, and my own father . Having this cable around was no more dangerous then the stuff my friends and I used to play with (motorcycles, home made go carts, random guns, outboard motors, etc...)

Heres the thing....
These should never be used in a theatre. There is no reason to EVER have this cable in a theatre. They should also never be unplugged and energized. The cable should be hooked up on both sides before the generator gets turned on. This is the same way you use cam turn-arounds. No, using this cable is not NEC compliant, but it will keep your fridge/deep freeze from thawing.


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## venuetech (Apr 5, 2010)

A isolation/transfer switch is what you need in place for emergency situations. 
Reliance Controls has them in many configurations. as do other manufacturers 

Residential brochure


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## Pie4Weebl (Apr 5, 2010)

Footer said:


> We had one of these cables around my house during all of my childhood and I am still here today. If you keep the cable put away and marked it won't fall into the wrong hands. Also, if you let everyone know if your family "don't touch this", they won't.



THIS.

I have a really hard time buying the argument that because *someone* out there is too stupid to use something *no one* should be able to use it. By this logic lets ban anything that can kill you, cars, beer, vending machines, the list goes on. 

As Footer said, he keeps his, by his generator at home and this seems totally logical. Something that will terrify the tight wads of CB even more, we have a male 3 phase to 3 phase cable in the shop! Its used so we can power up a specific rack in the shop and everyone knows what it is for, same thing with the edison-> alligator clips turn around, people know what its for and no one is put at risk.

Are these cables okay to have and use, yes? Should they be tossed on a rack with all the other cables, no. A little due diligence is all you need.


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## bishopthomas (Apr 5, 2010)

I don't have any problem with rigged cables as long as the user knows how to make, use, label, and store them. However, I'm not sure I really understand what the point is or how it would be used. I'm picturing a male California connector going to a generator, and on the other end I'm holding another male California connector. What the hell would I plug it in to? I don't know enough about home electrical systems to know why I would need to tap into the mains with a male connector (is there really some sort of female connector somewhere?), but I would think if you needed backup power then you would just install a main inlet somewhere in your home. Cover it, keep it in a locked closet, and/or put a disconnect switch on it to keep it safe/de-energized when not needed. Sorry, I just don't see how this is any more useful than an extension cord with two female ends.


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## tecgod13 (Apr 5, 2010)

I'll put another vote in for getting a real transfer switch if this is set up for a generator. I'm pretty sure there is a provision in the code that requires them for something like that. (not an electrician speaking...)

Just like anything else, if you're and idiot you can kill yourself with just about anything. I'd be very careful if you make up a cable like this and where you use it.

I want to say we made up one of these for a rotating set in college. I don't remember the specifics, but both sides of the set had an outlet to plug in a lamp. We wanted the lamp controlled by the light board, so we just made up a male stage pin to edison cable. When we had to change the scene, unplug the cable, spin the set around, plug into the other outlet. The outlets were about across from each other in the stage wall, and wired direct from one to the other.
Upon looking back, yah it was probably dangerous, but the stage crew knew it would be off when turning the set around, and we were careful.

In general, warning labels and regulations do make things safer for those that are smart enough to read and follow them. And maybe it does save a few idiots from killing themselves if they see a big label. But mostly they're a big pain in the ass. Also, natural selection works both ways. If the idiots don't kill themselves off, they breed more idiots, and the population gets dumber over time....


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## bishopthomas (Apr 5, 2010)

Pie4Weebl said:


> I have a really hard time buying the argument that because *someone* out there is too stupid to use something *no one* should be able to use it. By this logic lets ban anything that can kill you, cars, beer, vending machines, the list goes on.
> 
> Something that will terrify the tight wads of CB even more, we have a male 3 phase to 3 phase cable in the shop! Its used so we can power up a specific rack in the shop and everyone knows what it is for...



I certainly agree with your first paragraph. But I'm not sure what kind of rack would have a female inlet. I'm sure you know something that I don't, so please explain, but it sounds like you have a rack that has the wrong inlet connector on it.


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## bishopthomas (Apr 5, 2010)

tecgod13 said:


> I want to say we made up one of these for a rotating set in college. I don't remember the specifics, but both sides of the set had an outlet to plug in a lamp. We wanted the lamp controlled by the light board, so we just made up a male stage pin to edison cable. When we had to change the scene, unplug the cable, spin the set around, plug into the other outlet. The outlets were about across from each other in the stage wall, and wired direct from one to the other.



Okay, now I see something that would benefit from a male/male cable. Thank you for the example. Although, I don't think I would ever consider using it in this case. With several people on stage while it's unplugged (and energized as I'm sure you didn't unpatch it from the dimmer rack) it just seems like a disaster waiting to happen.


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## Dionysus (Apr 5, 2010)

NO WAY NOT EVER!!! IF YOU CREATE SUCH A CABLE YOU ARE BREAKING THE LAW (Well electrical codes).
Such a cable is a multitude of deaths, fires and other potential accidents waiting to happen.

IF YOU EVER SEE A CABLE OR SETUP LIKE THIS DESTROY IT IMMEDIATELY!

I've actually been called to TWO people's houses to look at the aftermath from this exact sort of thing. It is DEATH INCARNATE.

There are several rules that MUST be followed that make this type of situation SO VERY WRONG. I know from the CEC, not the NEC so I'll paraphrase...

This makes me want to run out to my truck and pull out me CEC, however I will resist. Plus it's best to 'dummy it down'...

1) First of all, any connector that may be the source of line voltage MUST be FEMALE.

2) A transfer switch that prevents two sources of power from being able (at all) to be connected at the same time, must be used to prevent a connection between the sources.

3) Only listed means may be used for applicable connections.

4) Any modification of an electrical service requires a permit and inspection with the local inspection authority.

5) Only specially designed metering cabinets may allow 'backwards' flow of current into the grid. (These can be installed for people with wind generators so that when they are drawing less than the generator is creating the power is sent out to the grid in the proper manner. Thus resulting in significant drop in your power bill.... Yes I've installed one of these. You need LOTS of special permission and expensive gear).

Need I say more??!??!?!??!?!?

No never do this, there are many proper means to connect a generator to your house. For my house I installed a secondary panel (listed generator transfer panel, I like schnider electric (Stab-lock and Square-D) and moved the circuits I wanted to be on backup power to this panel. Then I installed a proper outdoor Generator plug (250v 30a Twist, male) and made the appropriate cable to goto my generator (that I also use on construction sites... It's gotten a lot of use). The panel is fed from a 30a breaker in my main panel, and from the generator plug. When the power goes out I 'switch' the main for the sub-panel that is designed so it is IMPOSSIBLE to have both generator and mains power on at the same time.
When the main power comes back, I know via the circuits that I don't have on the sub-panel.

I've also installed automatic whole-service transfer switches hooked up to 200a installed natural-gas powered generators. Those are NICE. Power goes out, the system revs up the generator... After a delay it disconnects the mains, and connects the main panel to the generator. Again it is designed so there is NO WAY for both to be connected at the same time.

I remember once in college a friend of mine (he was head of lx for the show) created a cable with two male ends for some silly reason to fix a mistake in run cables. The next day when he was not there for levelset, I told the LD, who immediately had us disconnect the dimmers until the cabling was fixed... I think that was indeed the correct call... In reality my friend did not save ANY time making this male to male... in the time it took him to change the ends, he could of re-routed the cables.
The LD was not impressed. Not sure if she told any of the true faculty.

Had someone disconnected that cable, or it disconnected itself it could of caused serious property damage or worse, injured or killed someone.


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## Footer (Apr 5, 2010)

I will say it again, these cables should never be used on stage. Cam turn arounds are one thing, hooking them up to dimmer (that never actually turn off...) are another. 

What you do in your home is your own business. If you want to build a cable that could kill you or your family that is your thing. If you want to keep enough guns and ammo in your basement to start WWIII that is also your thing. By doing both you are not putting anyone beyond yourself and your family at risk. 

The OP asked what we thought of them in terms of backup power, not what we thought of them on stage. Lets try to stick to that discussion.


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## Dionysus (Apr 5, 2010)

Pie4Weebl said:


> THIS.
> 
> I have a really hard time buying the argument that because *someone* out there is too stupid to use something *no one* should be able to use it. By this logic lets ban anything that can kill you, cars, beer, vending machines, the list goes on.
> 
> ...



NO NO NO NO NO... The Rack should have A MALE connector, so the cable is male to female! This is a code requirement!
Someone likely did not see a male in the store and bought a female instead. Or found the females to be cheaper. There is a difference between an INLET receptacle and an OUTLET receptacle... That difference is GENDER.


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## DuckJordan (Apr 5, 2010)

one way to make this slightly safer is to have a special spot to do such things meaing you have a male in the wall behind a lockable plate and just use a regular extention cable, i put one in my house next to our breaker box which is located in my garage. its a twist lock 220v connector which is more power than i would ever pump into my house for this purpose (feel the better equipment you put in the house makes it more safe for everyone) but it does have a main switch in my breaker box for power feed. so its the safest you can get and you don't have a suicide cord hanging around for kids or helpful neighbors to plug in.


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## Pie4Weebl (Apr 5, 2010)

bishopthomas said:


> I certainly agree with your first paragraph. But I'm not sure what kind of rack would have a female inlet. I'm sure you know something that I don't, so please explain, but it sounds like you have a rack that has the wrong inlet connector on it.



It's one of our Audio PD's, the 3-phase out connector which we use to energize it in the shop is normally the output for a motor controller. The rack is usually powered via cams.

I believe someone may have made a cam-three phase to avoid this, but I don't keep too much track of what the noise boys are doing.


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## bishopthomas (Apr 5, 2010)

DuckJordan said:


> one way to make this slightly safer is to have a special spot to do such things meaing you have a male in the wall behind a lockable plate and just use a regular extention cable, i put one in my house next to our breaker box which is located in my garage. its a twist lock 220v connector which is more power than i would ever pump into my house for this purpose (feel the better equipment you put in the house makes it more safe for everyone) but it does have a main switch in my breaker box for power feed. so its the safest you can get and you don't have a suicide cord hanging around for kids or helpful neighbors to plug in.



See, I have a problem with the "Code Quoting" folks, but I also have a problem with those who are just doing things wrong. Why would you put a female connector when you could just as easily installed a male. The male would make it safe and you wouldn't have to build some crazy single-purpose cable that could potentially be lethal. Safety aside, cables should have a male and a female, males point to the power source. It's just the way it's done and I see no reason to change that.


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## bishopthomas (Apr 5, 2010)

Pie4Weebl said:


> It's one of our Audio PD's, the 3-phase out connector which we use to energize it in the shop is normally the output for a motor controller. The rack is usually powered via cams.
> 
> I believe someone may have made a cam-three phase to avoid this, but I don't keep too much track of what the noise boys are doing.



So I don't understand why you wouldn't have a cable with cams on it if it's usually powered by cams anyway. Whatever your power source is in the shop, just have an adapter to go from that to whatever is on the other end of your Camlok cable. Trust me, I've been a part of some insane power ideas, but if it's something you're using often I don't understand why you wouldn't just do it the right way.


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## Dionysus (Apr 5, 2010)

I've seen a number of 'suicide cables' or 'gay widow-makers' or whatever you wish to call them. There is a reason why they get called such ominous names. I take this kind of hazard very seriously. I don't care where I see one, etc. I consider myself 'a competent person' when it comes to electrical, thus I am responsible. When I see a cable like this I DESTROY IT.
I pull out my linesman's pliers, and cut the offending male end right off (after checking to see that it is disconnected, of course).

I have done this once during a music festival. The people from the company nearly tore my head off, at which point I told them that if not I'd call the electrical inspector for the area (whom I know very well) and have him shut them down. Hell one call to Hydro and the nearest truck will come and shut off the mains.
Of course they did not take that kindly, but I was not under their employ. I was actually there by the owners of the park. I was there to tie in electrical and fix some things.

I was very kind to them and offered to go get the appropriate ends from my truck and install them for the cost of the materials (my time was paid for anyways). They cooled down at that point.

After seeing the aftermath of someone dieing from such a device. I will always take it upon myself to prevent that from happening again.


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## jstroming (Apr 5, 2010)

You cut off the end of their cable without asking them (or telling them) first? That was real nice of you!


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## bishopthomas (Apr 5, 2010)

Dionysus said:


> When I see a cable like this I DESTROY IT.
> I pull out my linesman's pliers, and cut the offending male end right off (after checking to see that it is disconnected, of course).
> 
> I have done this once during a music festival.



That's very Robin Hood of you, but you cut my cable without asking and you WILL be facing legal prosecution.


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## GageStryker (Apr 5, 2010)

Is it this hard to get someone to stand up for Dionysus?

He's doing the right thing. I'd do exactly the same. And go ahead and sue. It won't even get to the judge. It's a matter of liability and jurisdiction. 

I'll share a similar story, not electrical related, that happened at my venue. We have a policy on fall arrest. If you're in a lift above 10 feet, you're in a harness, tied in to the approved anchor point. Period. This complies with the provincial and federal mandates, and besides that, it's house policy. 

We had a contractor come in to do some service on our projectors. In a lift. He decided he was too much of a man to wear a harness. I asked him politely to put one one (we have them available for such occasions). He refused. He wasn't up to 10 feet yet, so I stopped the lift, took the key, and went to get a harness. His swearing followed me all the way out of the room. I returned with a harness and explained that he had two options. Either he put the harness on and proceeded safely, or I'd lower him down, and he could leave, and I'd phone his boss and let him know to send another tech. 

He put on the harness, and under my supervision, did his maintenance and got the hell out of there. Upon informing his boss, it turns out that this wasn't the first incident, and he's now not going out of the shop. 

There are two kinds of people. Those who strive to follow the rules to the best of their ability, and those who think they're outside the rules. If you follow the rules, you can work on a team. If you don't, you put everyone else at risk, and you're better off not on a team at all. 

Would you be furious if you unwrapped your shiny new console and found that the manufacturer made all the plugs male, just to save on cost? And that's just industry standard conventions, where life and limb aren't in dire risk. That manufacturer wouldn't be making anything for a long time due to the uproar. 

If you need a custom solution, then make it. If you don't know how or if it meets code, ASK. Codes are there for a reason. Just because you don't know or care about the reason doesn't mean it isn't a good one. 

Back to liability and jurisdiction. Dio, as the licensed electrician onsite, has the professional obligation to shut down anything he feels is unsafe. That's what he's paid for. He wants to be on your team, and 99.9% of the time, he gets to be. It's just because he's a nice guy that he offered to fix the problem in addition. 

Guess what... guys tour all the time. Safely. With rated truss and points, correct electrical tie in procedures and equipment, and policies and procedures designed to make everything safer and more efficient. If you have to bend the rules to make your tour work, then maybe you're not smart enough to follow them, or maybe you're just plain lazy. 

If that's the case, then please, just leave. There are enough of us that want to do the job right to take your place.

And if you want an answer to why I'm so anal about this? Easy. My boss put a ladder up and was in a hurry. Working alone. Didn't check the footing. Went up and found it wasn't stable. Fell 20 feet, shattered both ankles and ended up in the hospital. Just barely missed his skull landing on fixed seating and taking a trip in a hearse. I visited him for three months in the hospital. He's a great guy. I know his family. And I'm going to do everything I can to make sure that on my watch, no one has to phone a wife or kids and say "sorry - it was just a stupid accident."


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## Footer (Apr 5, 2010)

Lets get back on topic guys. This is not a thread to discuss the bad things people do in a theatre. This is a thread to discuss the use of a male to male edison cable used for backup power in a home, not in a theatre.


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## venuetech (Apr 5, 2010)

Any way you look at it it is still very dangerous. Without a Isolation transfer switch you can energize the power line endangering the safety of utility repair crews.
if you have a generator you intend to use during an outage then get a NEC transfer switch.

will it work in a pinch?...yesssss Buttt... MAKE DAMM SURE YOU ARE ISOLATED FROM THE GRID then destroy the cable when done and get a transfer switch installed as soon as you can

the biggest problem is that someone (a friend, a child) attempts to do what you did and does not take all the necessary steps to isolate from the grid.
danger to you
danger to others
a danger to great to take


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## jstroming (Apr 5, 2010)

You would REALLY immediately cut the end off the cable? Not coil it up, then tell them the cable won't fly, and either stick it in their cable trunk or tell them that you'll replace the connector? What at all are you gaining by immediately cutting the end off the cable that wouldn't be accomplished by bringing it to their attention first? If I were crew-chief on that show I would use my in with the producer to write a nice letter to the venue management explaining to them that a little professional courtesy on your part would have gone a long way. Doesn't anybody else agree with this?!?

From a legal perspective I don't think you have justifiable cause to destroy someone's property even if you are licensed, but this is an interesting discussion. My lawyer friend I just called (because I was curious!) told me a licensed electrician, or for that matter any public official, police officer, building inspector who you may decide to call in your bout of rage, etc CANNOT destroy private property without a justice-backed court-order or justifiable cause that it may _imminently_ cause bodily harm. In this case, he says, it doesn't because the cable isn't yet plugged in. He equated it to having all the parts to a defective car but just leaving them piled up in your garage. I just spoke to my friend and this is what he told me....he said if I go through your venue make sure I bring that cable in and then he'll represent me for free for negligent property destruction HAHA.


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## jstroming (Apr 5, 2010)

Reminds me of what one of my professors used to say "If your baking a cake and forget the ingredients, consult a lawyer!"


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## Morpheus (Apr 5, 2010)

Well, i voted "_Yes, but the cable must be immediately destroyed._"

My reason is that (in the context of the OP, which Footer keeps reminding us) this sort of cable should be used in temporary emergencies, where wiring a proper power in is impractical (such as running power to a neighbors home is an example, although I was thinking more smaller-scale)... HOWEVER, if you'd be doing it more than once (i.e. personal generator) that totally justifies the installation of proper equipment...


(this is just me and my $.02 of common sense though)


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## Grog12 (Apr 5, 2010)

While I certainly understand the use for emergency power in homes, above and beyond that I'm not a fan of.

Let me tell ya why.

My other lifestyle as I like to call it is Retail Hardware. Every Xmas I get a customer who ran their lights the wrong way up their tree and think that its perfectly safe to get a male to male connector.

Hopefully everyone on this forum knows why that's a bad idea. The general populace is usually dumbstruck when you tell them that's a pretty good way to burn their house down.


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## Dionysus (Apr 5, 2010)

Slightly off topic, but to address the comments:

For the record I DID talk to them before cutting the end off (and contact my boss before as well), just did not tell all parts of the story in my earlier telling to keep it somewhat concise. And I don't consider removing one end of a cable to be 'destruction of property' when I had the replacement parts on hand and immediately remedied the situation. It's not like I chopped the cable in half.

And yes I do believe that in a situation the end should be removed! When you don't do such someone could accidentally grab that cable and plug it in, and touch the live end! That's exactly why it's against code!

I told them either I remove the end, or they get no power at all. Simple as that, in the end since I noticed the error I could be (among others) at fault if anything happened. I would be in trouble, the venue, the owner of the gear, the guys working with the gear, all potentially in big trouble (only if the worst happened).

I've seen what commonly happens when a cable like that is shoved back into a cable trunk. It gets ignored quite commonly. And plus, they DID need to use that piece of gear. Either it was getting fixed or no show.

They were not pissy that I took the end off, they were angry that I the 'electrician' was telling them that it was not appropriate and dangerous. "What do you know, you're an electrician!"... Of course I am not *just *an electrician, but they did not know that. I think I may of just been more experienced in lighting and sound than some of them were (they were not very professional).

If they were to press charges I would of gladly let it happen (and get the ESA involved), yes, I altered their cable... But there is a reason why I was there in the first place. I was hired to make sure that everything electrical was done to code, safely. I tied in their distribution. I also had a permit, in the electrical company's name making us liable.

I am not allowed to power a system that I deem unsafe. The only reason why I gave that story was an example to how serious something like this is.
We are talking life and death. It's just too dangerous.

*NOW BACK ON TOPIC OF THE O.P.!:*

As I mentioned before, been called to houses where people have attempted this. One actually caused the house to nearly burn down, another a guy electrocuted himself (on a farm). Not fun.
Bad Idea. Please follow the Codes, they're there for a reason! For your safety, and the safety of the property!



$20 part for a 5-15P edison inlet.

There are a tonne of products for hooking generator power to your house. If you'd like some different options other than the ones I gave in my earlier post, or the ones some of the others had posted earlier. Please contact a local electrician or electrical supplier.
There is no need whatsoever at any time to construct a cable like this.
Why would anyone need a cable like this is beyond me. If you use the proper things it will save you a lot of money in the long run... An inlet is not that expensive.
If you have an older house with a 60a service that your insurance company is yelling at you to replace, you can hit two birds with one stone and save a lot of money and do a full panel change.


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## Footer (Apr 5, 2010)

Dionysus said:


> *NOW BACK ON TOPIC OF THE O.P.!:*
> 
> As I mentioned before, been called to houses where people have attempted this. One actually caused the house to nearly burn down, another a guy electrocuted himself (on a farm). Not fun.
> Bad Idea. Please follow the Codes, they're there for a reason! For your safety, and the safety of the property!
> ...



Playing devils advocate again...
While walking through the hardware store joe blow sees the inlet and installs it in his house. He puts it on a separate circuit in his breaker panel. In order to use it he switches off the main breaker to the house, flips on the inlet panel, hooks up his generator, and lights up the house. After the power comes back on, he goes out, turns off the generator, unplugs the cable, turns off the breaker to the inlet connector and turns back on the main breaker. 

You do avoid having to have a M to M cable laying around. However, does the risk of having a possible energized inlet connector that is connected to the grid 24/7/365 outweigh the Male to Male cable?


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## fredthe (Apr 5, 2010)

OK, here's my solution for home use. Note that we rarely have extended power outages (more than a few hours,) but occasionally have extended (24 hour+) outages. I've only had 3 in the 12 years I've lived there (the first is when I bought the generator)

I've got a 30A 2-pole breaker, and a cable that's fitted with a plug for the generator. When it's clear power will be out for an extended period, I turn off the main breaker, open the panel and install the breaker, connect the cable, and connect the generator. When power is restored (informed by neighbors) I then remove the breaker and close up the panel before energizing the main breaker. No, it's not as safe as a transfer switch, but no make-male ford left lying around (yes, it's male to bare end, but the only thing it fits is the generator...)

Now, a friend of mine has extended outages a couple of times a year... we put in a transfer switch for him.


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## Footer (Apr 5, 2010)

You don't really need to buy a transfer switch, according NEC. This piece of steel does the same thing as a person with some due diligence and a roll of tape.


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## bishopthomas (Apr 5, 2010)

Dionysus said:


> For the record I DID talk to them before cutting the end off (and contact my boss before as well), just did not tell all parts of the story in my earlier telling to keep it somewhat concise.



"Hey, it looks like you're using a male/male cable here when you really should have male/female. I'm sure there's a good reason why you made this cable, but give me five minutes and I will correct it for you, bringing your rig up to code." Any reasonable response would be, "Really, you wouldn't mind? Thanks, you're the best!" If your conversation didn't go like that (especially the beginning) then something else was up. If it did go like that then you are just playing the tough guy persona with us here, which is why you're not coming across as the good guy in this situation (even though you may have done the "right" thing in the end).


Dionysus said:


> And I don't consider removing one end of a cable to be 'destruction of property' when I had the replacement parts on hand and immediately remedied the situation. It's not like I chopped the cable in half.



Sorry, but it doesn't matter what you think as you are not a judge. If it actually happened as you described (and you're not just pretending to be Mr. Tough Guy) then you ARE destroying private property and the sound co does have every right to press charges. Now, it probably wouldn't serve them well as they would be investigated and perhaps blacklisted due to non-compliant AC cabling, but why should you both go down?


Dionysus said:


> There is no need whatsoever at any time to construct a cable like this.
> Why would anyone need a cable like this is beyond me. If you use the proper things it will save you a lot of money in the long run... An inlet is not that expensive.



I couldn't agree more. I see no reason not to do things the proper way when you can just as easily do things correctly (and safely).


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## MNicolai (Apr 5, 2010)

I destroy things where I work all the time. An XLR cable that doesn't work? I chop the ends off. A bad power cable with a missing ground pin? Chop the end(s) off. It addresses the problem immediately, making the work area safe for everyone, and if I don't get around to putting a new connector on right away, then next week when I'm in the shop and see it laying on the table, I know that I still need to finish fixing that.

If something only works just enough to be dangerous, I either immediately make it safe or break it enough that it cannot be used in a dangerous fashion.

I hadn't thought about energizing the grid earlier, but I imagine that makes for especially hazardous conditions for crews to work in. It also means that if the power line is down the middle of a road, now both ends of the severed line serve as potential points of extreme danger to bystanders while crews are still on their way to assess the damage.

Now if I was working in someone else's location and found dangerous cords, though I may hesitate to destroy them, I have no problem refusing to work until the problem is corrected. In a home OR at work. Whether you have the authority or not, you do still carry the responsibility to point out any and all pertinent hazards to those who may A) be unaware something is dangerous, or B) be deliberately violating safe working conditions.

When things go south and someone gets hurt, that's not a "Whoops" kind of thing; that's criminal neglect and manslaughter. Say all of the unkind things you want to about my mother and threaten to blacklist me, I won't have any hand in another tragedy like at The Station. If you're working conditions are unsafe and you refuse to improve them, I'll walk. Not only will I walk, but I'll make a lot of noise in the process. If I have to call fire marshals, building inspectors, or OSHA, I'll fulfill my responsibility to the industry and to mankind.

My arrogance applies _especially_ to home residences, because anything I say there or any actions taken there are not protected by my employers' insurance umbrellas. If I am not crystal clear in the things that I say and advise, I could get sued all the way into bankruptcy. I'm not letting any well-intentioned suicide cable have those repercussions on my life.


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## Footer (Apr 5, 2010)

Lets stay on topic people. This thread is not about cutting off connectors. If we are going to let threads like this go they have to stay on topic and not turn into flame wars.


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## venuetech (Apr 5, 2010)

Footer said:


> You don't really need to buy a transfer switch, according NEC. This piece of steel does the same thing as a person with some due diligence and a roll of tape.



That it does
but it does not justify using a widowmaker.

finding persons with due diligence could be the big problem


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## n1ist (Apr 5, 2010)

If you have a generator, get a transfer switch or other interlocked switching system before there is any problem. It's just like PM versus a trouble call; it's easier and cheaper when scheduled in advance and nobody is rushing.

In an emergency, rather than backfeed a house circuit (with all of the risk and liability involved), just run a normal extension cord or two from the generator to the few loads you want to power up. You won't be powering up any large loads anyway, at least with most small generators. As for the furnace, it's easy to temporarily wire up a plug and cap the normal feed so you can run it this way.

There's no safe use for a double male power cord. Even if you think that you will "always" remember to safely sequence the breakers and plugging/unplugging it, people make mistakes during emergencies, and others, having watched you using your cable, may try it themselves in their own house or when you aren't there and miss a critical step. Then someone gets shocked, killed, or a house burns down.

/mike


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## bishopthomas (Apr 5, 2010)

n1ist said:


> In an emergency, rather than backfeed a house circuit (with all of the risk and liability involved), just run a normal extension cord or two from the generator to the few loads you want to power up. You won't be powering up any large loads anyway, at least with most small generators. As for the furnace, it's easy to temporarily wire up a plug and cap the normal feed so you can run it this way.



I think we're talking about long term power outages here. As far as load capacity, I would want more than a pair of 15 amp circuits to run a refrigerator, deep freezer, heater, hot water heater, and some lights and phone charger (no land line here, need to stay connected). Granted, I wouldn't be running all of those at once, but enough to need more than just an extension cord or two.


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## n1ist (Apr 6, 2010)

That's why I recommend installing a proper transfer switch when there is no problem. As you said, for most generators, only one of those can be run at a time. Even when backfeeding a single 30A dryer circuit, you are going to have a problem if that 20A/220V water heater is on and one of the motor loads kicks in.

OK, I may change my view in that during the first emergency (when you have just bought or borrowed the generator while all hell is breaking loose), you may have to jury-rig things. I have done similar to run my furnace off the inverter in the car once. But I would redo things in a safer manner as soon as possible. The risks of a suicide cord for my family and for linesmen (yes, pole pigs DO work in reverse) is just too great. 
/mike


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