# Multiple Theater Systems on Same Network? Experiences? Thoughts?



## aldenf (Jan 31, 2013)

Hi gang!

I'm not sure this is the right discussion group for this thread. Please move it if there is a better location. As it involves multiple departments, and this group seems to have the most traffic, I started here...
[Note by Mod.: Thread originally posted in Lighting. When multiple depts are involved, we usually use "Show Control" (also covers computer networking unless discipline-specific) as a catch-all. Thus the thread has been moved.]

We want to network all of our "networkable" systems here at the playhouse. ie. Ion, Midas Pro2, Audio Processors, RF Mics, etc. for both monitoring and control.

I have a solid dual-band N router and 12 port 10/100 switch. I'd like to create one "technical network" to limit multiple WiFi signals in the space and avoid unnecessary costs. We already have two internet-enabled networks (public and private) with multiple access points. What is the feasibility of combining the equipment on one network? Currently, we have only one iPad for remote control. I hope to add one more in the coming months (one for lights, one for sound). For the foreseeable future, I see a maximum of two concurrent devices on the WiFi network. I may entertain the idea (though low probability) of running multiple audio iPad control units for individual monitor control.

My ME tells me the ION requires a specific subnet mask. Will this cause difficulties with the other systems?

Any sage advice from those who have tread this path already is most welcome.

Thanks!

~Alden


Alden Fulcomer
Associate Production Manager
Audio Supervisor
Bucks County Playhouse
Bucks County Playhouse, Theater, Shows, Concerts, and Entertainment in New Hope, Bucks County, Pennsylvania


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## cpf (Jan 31, 2013)

Your existing wifi architecture may be able to create virtual SSIDs/networks and place them on a separate isolated VLAN, configured as required. Something to ask your IT people.


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## SteveB (Jan 31, 2013)

It's doable but ask the following questions:

-Why ?. Other then potential WiFi bandwidth issues, which having all on one network doesn't solve, is there a need to have audio and lighting on the same network, other then a potential cost savings in not having multiple switches as well as separate network wiring infrastructures. If you have separate infrastructures currently, then no cost savings.

- Who troubleshoots a potential problem with the lighting system ? (or audio). The head elec ?, head audio ?, or is there now a network manager who deals with it ?. 

- Who 'ya gonna' call ?. If you have merged networks, are you confident enough in your own skills to deal with it in house ?. Troubleshooting is going to be far simpler on separate networks as well as avoid the potential for a problem with one system migrating into another. 

The reason for the third is if you have potential issues between your Ion and the dimmers, and call ETC tech support, you have just made their job much more difficult in trying to troubleshoot, as some of the potential problems could be generated by gear and or configurations they neither recommend nor deal with, such as an audio system on the same backbone. Note that in general, ETC does not recommend running your lighting network as part of a backbone with other systems. 

I understand the issues related to multiple WiFi routers and the conflicts inherent and have 3 in my space - Lighting, Audio and Internet. I question whether moving to one or two routers would solve the potential issues that simply changing channels could not deal with.


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## jglodeklights (Jan 31, 2013)

Adding a router for lighting should not be that expensive in a theater the size of BCP. I'm running a pretty ancient Linsys WRT54-G at our new facility with 409 seats, and get reception almost everywhere in the building. The barn at Theatre by the Sea was a little less kind to the signal from it- I wouldn't be able to run the lights from the scene shop  I'm with Steve on each point he brought to the table. It is often just easier in the long run to have one network for each department and the cost may be lower than trying to combine them into one network.


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## BobHealey (Jan 31, 2013)

How much bandwidth does each network require? Can you guarantee sufficient QOS to ensure that ACN/EDMX packets don't get dropped or delayed? If you're adding audio transport, the same applies, only more sensitive to dropped packets and delays in transport.


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## museav (Jan 31, 2013)

If I understand correctly, you are not looking at networked audio, just bi-directional network control of audio devices. There are certainly some potential things to watch out for and you might want to consider a managed switch with lighting and audio VLANs, but unless you encounter bandwidth issues I don't see how having everything on one network being the problems that some others seem to envision.


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## aldenf (Jan 31, 2013)

Thanks for your thoughts, guys...

Brad is correct. No networked audio/video. Just bi-directional control.

I've always been the in-house IT guy for every organization I've worked for in the past. Fortunately, we have an IC who handles business related IT. I'm not sure I can count on him for much help beyond physical infrastructure, which I shouldn't need help with anyway.

OK. So I put the ION on it's own network. It'll be much happier there by itself anyway. And by utilizing separate networks for lights and audio, I'll eliminate the need for VLANs. Equipment that natively supports true VLANs it much more expensive. As no show control is currently networked, I'll be building the infrastructure for whatever goes in...

As I'm often a one-man audio department, the iPod ap for the Pro2 would be nice. All my racks are not easily accessible from front or back of house during a performance. Running monitoring software for the EW 300's is necessary. Having FOH control of audio processors, catwalk-mounted projector, etc would also be most welcome.

I do not know the bandwidth requirements of each system. I can not find that info in any of the literature. The only thing requiring WiFi access is the Midas ap. While the router is Gb enabled, the switch I currently have is only 10/100. All of the devices are limited to their own 100 Mb ports.

I guess I'm just concerned with all the radio waves in the air. In the theater we'll have: 4 WiFi networks (with multiple access points), 24 channels of RF mics (EW300), RF Comm (BTR-800/825), RF DMX (for effects). Am I just being overly paranoid about possible frequency issues or RF interference? Am I asking for trouble asking all the systems to share one network, even though it will be mostly hard-wired? Will all these radio waves in the air fry my crew's brains? =P

I'm sure you can tell that I haven't networked this many systems together before. I just want to start the process feeling as if I'm prepared. Also having solutions in advance of possible problems would be helpful. Staying within a reasonable budget would make the suits happy.

Thanks!

~Alden


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## Chris15 (Jan 31, 2013)

There are some things to be said for converging, but if you don't have the people who can fix it when it goes wrong, then converging is probably not for you.
You also don't even think about it unless you have managed switchgear...

As for concerns about RF levels, you carry a phone in your pocket right?
That's way more of a risk to your health than anything we normally use...


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## JohnHuntington (Jan 31, 2013)

I agree with many others who have already responded--it's only worth combining the systems if there's a really compelling reason to do so. We have done this for the last two years on our Gravesend Inn network, and I wrote it all up here:
Managed Switch/Routing Ethernet Infrastructure for The Gravesend Inn, Part I &mdash; Control Geek

I wrote that stuff to work out the material for my book, which introduces VLAN's, etc...

John


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## chausman (Jan 31, 2013)

I don't know much about it, other than it exists, but a local facility here has (almost) everything on their network, AFAIK. They have four facilities, an Arena, a 2700 seat theater, and two convention centers. All are on one network infrastructure, connecting the three buildings together. They have everything from their wireless internet, to the Soundcraft Vi console/stageboxes in one space, to the Cobranet system in the Arena, and a couple hundred Mac Minis running the in house ad loop. Its amazing. Theoretically, they can run HD video and audio from the theater to the arena, about a mile away. But, they have a team of IT members who only work on keeping the massive network together.  So, it is possible. However, I would personally suggest just keeping things separate, unless you had a good reason to but it together. Much easier to troubleshoot, and if one device starts putting out bad data, you can't screw up everything else along with it.


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## Chris15 (Jan 31, 2013)

The Sydney Opera House converged I think it was 17 different networks onto one.
The business case was clear for them doing so.
They had to work through the issues of who owns it, who manages it etc.
One of the key things was that it was supported by senior management, so I understand that really helped in focussing people on breaking down the issues and barriers that would have prevented it so they could get the result.

Oh and it's IT's problem to fix it, not production, but they do have arrangements for how IT do that outside of normal business hours - something that had to be worked out before it got the implementation go ahead...
And it runs in VLANs on enterprise grade hardware, no consumer switches in sight...


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