# Cheap, easy intercom setup with text message also.. WOW



## jtweigandt (Mar 15, 2015)

We had been using family service radios and headsets, which for a variety of reasons have not been satisfactory.. sound quality, microphone jack life, people accidentally setting on vox, non duplex communication etc.

If you have an old pc (linux or windows) sitting around and a wireless router, there is a voice/text server arrangement called MUMBLE available for free download. Gamers use it to communicate with voice while playing. Do the download from the real site mumble.com, not the virus laden secondary sites that may pop up on a google search. On the pc that will be the server, you need to punch down through the install menu to make sure you install both mumble (client) and murmur (server) if you are on a windows pc. Instructions are online.

Heres the cool part.. you set up the FREE server program.. 5 minutes literally.. then you download either the mumble program for another computer(s), or the mumble app or the brumble app (slightly better) for any smart phone.. android or apple. Now the other pc, or phone logs into the server via the app, and you have a set of push to talk or voice activated, or full time on devices all inter connected.. all of which can hear each other via the wifi connnection. Secure password protected, not broadcasting to the general public.

I bought a set of logitech wireless bluetooth headsets, that allow the user to roam about 40 feet from the base pc.. no more belt pack.... just the headset. Or they can use just a cheap ear bud and set up any phone as a push to talk.. or they can use their existing phone/bluetooth earset/headset etc. 

The voice quality is fantastic.. the logitech h800 headset is about 70 bucks 6 hour talk time rechargable.. Usable with the dongle or pair with any capable phone. 

So you get a full duplex intercom system for free using old stuff you probably have sitting around, or add in to your box office pc and have the wireless router placed so that you have good signal stage and booth. If you have a pc, wireless router, and a phone, you can test this out yourself with about 1/2 hour time invested. Dont use to a live speaker or you get some funky reverb. Use earbuds or headset to test. 

NOW THE REALLY COOL PART... the server also has text messaging integrated, so the guy with the phone, can text the booth if there is a complex message.. AND THE SYSTEM WILL BOTH DISPLAY ON THE MONITOR WINDOW, AND CONVERT TEXT TO SPEECH INTO THE BOOTH GUYS HEADSET!!! Texting to the phone user or secondary pc works the same way.

Have been testing/ proving... will likely go live with a show in 2 weeks.


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## Amiers (Mar 15, 2015)

I will agree with mumble be a good way for a cheap comm. I use that TS3 and Vent for all my gaming needs.


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## NickVon (Mar 16, 2015)

I've been trying out an App or Iphone and Android called Zello. Since all the kids have smart phones now a days. It WILL not replace comm, but it essentially gives you two way Radio Functionality in a "Chat room" style connection. Only one person can talk at a time, but it's been great for calling "5", and "Places", "House open". It is not party line there is enough of a delay that you can't call a show using it. You as the "channel" owner, can set moderators, have users ONLY talk to moderators, mute users from your own feed or mute users globally if they have only a need to listen.

It definitely requires some sort of Bluetooth Headset/ iphone headset/earbuds, other wise the speaker on the phone will get quite annoying especiaily for multiple people all using the app in close proximity. Uses Wifi or you cell network to communicate.

oh.... and it's free.


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## jtweigandt (Mar 16, 2015)

give mumble a try.. it is very low latency.. simulates full duplex very well, looks like calling the show with it would be very doable


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## NewChris (Mar 16, 2015)

I set this up once for a show, ended up not needing it. I got a raspberry pi set up to turn mumble on so it was a headless set up. Worked well in practice, no experience with a real show.


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## NickVon (Mar 16, 2015)

jtweigandt said:


> give mumble a try.. it is very low latency.. simulates full duplex very well, looks like calling the show with it would be very doable


my concern would everyone having to stay with in "Wifi Router" range of the PC connected running Mumble. What's nice about Zello, is it works between buildings, as long as you have a Cell or wifi connection. Hell, we used it between two schools 3 miles away for a dance competition. I may think about mumble, though as who doesn't have a spare laptop lying around. For a Cinderblock high school theater, seating 700, with Dressing rooms in the band room/choir room between 4 walls and 500ft from where the router would be set up. seems a stretch, no?


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## jtweigandt (Mar 16, 2015)

Line of sight booth to stage no problem in 700 seat theater. Dressing rooms etc more problematic.. I was thinking more along the lines of booth to stage for moving scenery, calling clear, calling cues, and taking care of trouble on the fly. We use the walk through shout and thankyou system for calling 5, places etc. A little cat 5 cable run and you could put an access point in the dressing room area. or use the old radio method and relay to the dressing rooms It is still a couple of orders of magnitude cheaper than a dedicated comm system, and a darn sight better than nothing. I work in a 3000 sq ft cinderblock building at work, and still pick up a wifi signal outside the building. 1 router, 1 access point.


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## Mwchris (Mar 16, 2015)

I recommend mumble in a previous post. I use it for all my shows. In 200+ seat theater with a single router running off the same Mac or PC running my sound cues with no issues. (I tried running it direct on the router with DD-Wrt and Tomatoe, but could never get it stable.)

I tried Bluetooth and didn't care for it as it injected delay with VOX activated, however that was a headset to a tablet over wifi, not direct to the server as you mentioned.

I much prefer those on com bringing their own device and headset. Worst case you can pick up old Andriod devices cheap. loys of headset options and folks rarely forget their phone these days.

In regards to coverage you can pay for or setup a hosted solution that would work over the Internet like Zello, but I would imagine you may run into latency issues although I would imagine it would still be better than Zello. I typically had less than 5ms of delay on my local setup. If you were in a location with existing wi-fi you could probably use that too depending on the routing setup.

I just got a raspberry Pi and I plan on setting up a stand alone com setup, but would prefer to get it running on my Wireless hardware would be ideal provided it is stable.


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## robartsd (Mar 17, 2015)

Mwchris said:


> I just got a raspberry Pi and I plan on setting up a stand alone com setup, but would prefer to get it running on my Wireless hardware would be ideal provided it is stable.


There is quite a range of processing power availible inside wifi routers these days. If you get the mumble server working well on the Rasberry Pi, hopefully you can use that system to determine the resources it would need to have availible to run well in the router.


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## flowalex999 (Mar 17, 2015)

One thing I noticed about number is that the server works better when it is in a weird network and should have a static IP if the show is over a series of days


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## Mwchris (Mar 17, 2015)

flowalex999 said:


> One thing I noticed about number is that the server works better when it is in a weird network and should have a static IP if the show is over a series of days



I agree. My server is always hard wired to the router. I used a static IP the first few times, but found if my instance of Mumble is the only one running it is a non-issue. That could be made worse if you are hosting via WAN or have a large LAN.


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## Mwchris (Mar 17, 2015)

robartsd said:


> There is quite a range of processing power availible inside wifi routers these days. If you get the mumble server working well on the Rasberry Pi, hopefully you can use that system to determine the resources it would need to have availible to run well in the router.



I was using an ASUS router which had plenty of storage and processing power, but documentation was limited,over 6 years old and I just couldn't get it stable. (It became a time suck and I knew the other way worked.) 

I expect the Pi to work great, but honestly quite like it running on a pc or Mac because if there is an issue (haven't had any yet)I have a shortcut to a script on the desktop to stop and to restart the server. Running headless with a router or Pi would make that hard for the lay person.


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## Moose Hatrack (Mar 17, 2015)

This isn't an IP solution, but it works for us. I choked on the price of renting wired Clear Com years ago so I used the gear I had left over to come up with something we wound up liking more than wired beltpacks... 2 wired mics on stands in the wings: one is SR for the SM and the other is SL for the ASM. Both mics come up the snake to the mixer. I have a wired mic at the desk. All three mics go through the monitor buss into a Galaxy Any Spot AS-1100 IEM transmitter. I use the headphone jack on the Galaxy for my local headphones. The SM and ASM wear IEM beltpacks with earbuds. They like being able to leave their stations without taking off wired headgear. (I tried the same approach using a Listen system in previous years... but I can't get the Listen LR-300-072 receivers to behave_ anywhere_ I take them so they don't get to go to the show any more.)


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## Max Warasila (Mar 17, 2015)

The good news with TS3 and Mumble (I don't care for Ventrillo), Nick, is that you can easily set up voice permissions (so that one person can talk while other can only listen), have multiple channels as necessary, and if you need to have it available in multiple buildings, you can host a server on the web as a whole. If you get really excited, you can even rent a server for the duration of your run. Usernames and passwords are supported; and if you do it right, low latency. I've gotten mine down to less than 5ms before - around the same as is added through a digital audio console.


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## AudioGreg (Mar 17, 2015)

so what is the trick to 5ms? best i can do on a local murmur server is 200-300ms… haven't tried internet yet

if i can get the latency down, i want to tie this into a port on my intercom matrix. if i want two channels of mumble in the intercom system, do i need two instances of mumble and two sets of audio i/o?


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## flowalex999 (Mar 17, 2015)

Proximity to router might be the reason I was only 20 feet away from that


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## Max Warasila (Mar 18, 2015)

Okay so, we cheated and were using a hardwired connection and terrible quality. 5ms was the best we've ever gotten, but we averaged betweem 50 and 100ms during regular use.

I just did some testing (I'll post a video if you'd like) using Audition and a loopback from another computer for a totally WiFi based system, quickly set up. Average latency was around 400ms, which honestly seems high because when I used to play Eve Online, our TS3 sever was never more than 600ms behind. There's a way to get it faster, but I'm sure it requires an addon or two. It's the compression that really eats up time, I'd bet. Point is, if Dante can do less than 10, there's no reason we should be any more than 200ms, I just can't remember how to do it.

It's also possible that my computer has a processing delay from recording in Audition at the same time as streaming - the buffer is around 20ms round trip, but I'll bet there's more effective delay.

If you leave your stream open, the time seems to come down to about 350ms by itself. Something to do with opening and closing the stream, I'm sure.

FWIW, it's a cool, free tool that lets you have as many channels as you need and do some really powerful stuff. Call your cues a half second early, and you'll be fine. If that makes a significant difference to you - pay money for a real system. 

And to answer your question about the instances and I/O - yes, but there's no reason you can't get some cheap USB dongle to do the trick in a matter of ms.


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## Max Warasila (Mar 18, 2015)

Okay, so I just spent the time since I posted the last post to do some more testing. After about 5 seconds it settles down to about 150ms, so it's definitely allowable if you're calling.


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## Mwchris (Mar 18, 2015)

I need to fire mine up and do a test, but I recall on both my Mac version and Windows version never having higher tha 10ms delay over wifi. That is with a wired connection to server and everything else wireless. I have used two different routers, two different computers and neither are top of the line, and both 100mb network connection. Also, I just used the stock murmur setup and a wireless router NOT connected to the Internet.

Not sure why you all are getting longer delays, how many users did you have? Mine was typically 5-12.

I'll test it when I get a chance.


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## robartsd (Mar 20, 2015)

Mwchris said:


> I need to fire mine up and do a test, but I recall on both my Mac version and Windows version never having higher tha 10ms delay over wifi. That is with a wired connection to server and everything else wireless. I have used two different routers, two different computers and neither are top of the line, and both 100mb network connection. Also, I just used the stock murmur setup and a wireless router NOT connected to the Internet.
> 
> Not sure why you all are getting longer delays, how many users did you have? Mine was typically 5-12.
> 
> I'll test it when I get a chance.


I assume this was dedicated wifi network in a clear frequency? 100mb/s wired connection is certainly enough that the wifi network would be the most likely bottleneck unless the wifi is 802.11n.


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## Mwchris (Mar 20, 2015)

Yep, dedicated wifi. It was on a mixed mode b/g network. Below is a screen shot from when I fired it up last night. It was bouncing between 2 ms and 18 ms but rarely over.


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## robartsd (Mar 20, 2015)

Mwchris said:


> Yep, dedicated wifi. It was on a mixed mode b/g network. Below is a screen shot from when I fired it up last night. It was bouncing between 2 ms and 18 ms but rarely over.


Were there any 802.11b devices on the network (fairly rare these days)? If so, then the wifi bandwidth availible might have been quite low; but even if it does require a dedicated 802.11g network to get these results it seems very practical for many applications.


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## NewChris (Mar 20, 2015)

Also something I remember is you don't need an internet connection, just WiFi. It doesn't need a connection to the entire network. Just a router you can connect to. It's just a LAN network.


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## Max Warasila (Mar 20, 2015)

Mwchris said:


> Yep, dedicated wifi. It was on a mixed mode b/g network. Below is a screen shot from when I fired it up last night. It was bouncing between 2 ms and 18 ms but rarely over.



I know why you seem to have unreasonably low numbers compared to ours, Chris. What you are reporting is network ping/latency, while others and myself are posting the delay in the voice transmission itself.

When I tested it, I basically set it up like a Dual FFT, just instead recording spectrographs. This allowed me to detect total audio latency from input to output in a typical usage scenario, from the moment the SM speaks to the instant the board op hears the call. For a constant stream, with medium quality, this is around 150ms. For a short burst (such as with PTT), we see a latency of around 350-500ms. Regardless of the network latency, what we need to know is the total audio latency, as this is what truly affects our show. Personally, I think that latencies within 200ms will be suitable to call a show on. The PTT isn't an issue, since you'll mostly use it for acknowledgment rather than an instant and precise cue.


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## jtweigandt (Mar 20, 2015)

just ran under show conditions last night during a rehearsal. 1 modern pc in the booth which is also our backup enttec dpro computer, 1 older hp thin client SL 1 very old xp machine SR 3 bluetooth wireless headsets (logitech h800) so everyone can rove and roam. pc's all wired to router cat5e. Cut in my cell phone with a client via the wireless to test as well earlier. Very little latency. extremely high quality voice. Happy techies.. compared to Family service radios on the belt to wired headsets, every one is very happy.


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## jtweigandt (Mar 20, 2015)

as to the latency concerns.. that may wax more to the philosophical, and involve some trust in your operators... Precisely timed cues will be late anyhow, even with the best intercom, if you absolutely insist on calling them and expect human physiology to react in time. Call "Ready 5 for gunshot.".. or doorbell, or rooster..or lightning.. but then it's gotta be a visual, or script coordinaton anyhow.. If you are getting them executed on time.. You don't cue each line an actor gives for goodness sake.. let go a bit. I will guarantee you your operator is probably anticipating you. Bringing up lights after a scene change, go ahead.. call clear.. but you tell me if your audience will notice if the lights are down for 15 seconds or 15.5 seconds I think not. If you are an absolutely professional theater, and a total control freak, buy the big stuff..


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## rbalewski (Mar 20, 2015)

After reading this thread, I decided to give Mumble a try. Been using FRS radios for the camera guys and it works, but I'm always open to something different!  Have two servers set up - one campus-wide and one local to the sanctuary on a completely different wifi system. Seems good so far, thanks for the suggestion! Will let you all know how things go here.


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## Mwchris (Mar 20, 2015)

robartsd said:


> Were there any 802.11b devices on the network (fairly rare these days)? If so, then the wifi bandwidth availible might have been quite low; but even if it does require a dedicated 802.11g network to get these results it seems very practical for many applications.


Tons. That screen shot was at my residential location.


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## Mwchris (Mar 20, 2015)

NewChris said:


> Also something I remember is you don't need an internet connection, just WiFi. It doesn't need a connection to the entire network. Just a router you can connect to. It's just a LAN network.


That is my preferred method. Mainly because most of my folks use their personal cell phone and it keeps them from being off task during a show.


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## Mwchris (Mar 20, 2015)

Max Warasila said:


> I know why you seem to have unreasonably low numbers compared to ours, Chris. What you are reporting is network ping/latency, while others and myself are posting the delay in the voice transmission itself.
> 
> When I tested it, I basically set it up like a Dual FFT, just instead recording spectrographs. This allowed me to detect total audio latency from input to output in a typical usage scenario, from the moment the SM speaks to the instant the board op hears the call. For a constant stream, with medium quality, this is around 150ms. For a short burst (such as with PTT), we see a latency of around 350-500ms. Regardless of the network latency, what we need to know is the total audio latency, as this is what truly affects our show. Personally, I think that latencies within 200ms will be suitable to call a show on. The PTT isn't an issue, since you'll mostly use it for acknowledgment rather than an instant and precise cue.



You may very well be correct. I do not have the tools to test in that manner. I would be curious how your reading compares to the network latency displayed on the device?? In any case, I agree; I have yet to experience an issue where Mumble was too slow. There is a noticable delay if the person is right next to you and you can hear, but not so much that it has caused me to miss a call. (Put on headphones from one device and talk using another the delay makes you talk like you've had one too many at the bar!)


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## Mwchris (Mar 20, 2015)

jtweigandt said:


> as to the latency concerns.. that may wax more to the philosophical, and involve some trust in your operators... Precisely timed cues will be late anyhow, even with the best intercom, if you absolutely insist on calling them and expect human physiology to react in time. Call "Ready 5 for gunshot.".. or doorbell, or rooster..or lightning.. but then it's gotta be a visual, or script coordinaton anyhow.. If you are getting them executed on time.. You don't cue each line an actor gives for goodness sake.. let go a bit. I will guarantee you your operator is probably anticipating you. Bringing up lights after a scene change, go ahead.. call clear.. but you tell me if your audience will notice if the lights are down for 15 seconds or 15.5 seconds I think not. If you are an absolutely professional theater, and a total control freak, buy the big stuff..


I couldn't agree more. Trust your operators. The only calls I wait for are during blackouts and I can't see. Otherwise I almost always cue off of a line or action of an actor.


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## Max Warasila (Mar 20, 2015)

jtweigandt said:


> as to the latency concerns.. that may wax more to the philosophical, and involve some trust in your operators... Precisely timed cues will be late anyhow, even with the best intercom, if you absolutely insist on calling them and expect human physiology to react in time. Call "Ready 5 for gunshot.".. or doorbell, or rooster..or lightning.. but then it's gotta be a visual, or script coordinaton anyhow.. If you are getting them executed on time.. You don't cue each line an actor gives for goodness sake.. let go a bit. I will guarantee you your operator is probably anticipating you. Bringing up lights after a scene change, go ahead.. call clear.. but you tell me if your audience will notice if the lights are down for 15 seconds or 15.5 seconds I think not. If you are an absolutely professional theater, and a total control freak, buy the big stuff..



I've worked under every kind of SM as far as cue calling goes - from practically flying solo to having a drill sergeant in my ear. I know that the operators (myself included), know our cues well enough. Still, I've had SMs call my individual lightning cues instead of working off the lines like they were supposed to. In the end, there's a rhythm to it, and I feel like the latency created by the software is negligible enough not to prevent that rhythm from being built. Whatever your workflow - the system will work.

Chris, I did check ping a few moments ago, and it's somewhere around 5ms from once device to another through a wireless - router - wireless style connection (have to check using the system because I can't find that data on TS3 right now... can't remember where to find it). The delay is definitely a software issue, not a hardware issue. Data can only be compressed so fast, after all.


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## AudioGreg (Mar 26, 2015)

well i setup a local server and have successfully interfaced a computer client with my RTS Zeus intercom and have a few android clients working. The quality is surprisingly good, and i don't think the the 150-200ms audio latency is enough to worry about. anybody managed to make your own server public? or is the only way to rent a public server?


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## headcrab (Mar 26, 2015)

Any server can be public. I'm going to assume the computer running murmur (the murmur host) doesn't have a public IP address, so you have to forward a port on your router.


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## flowalex999 (Mar 27, 2015)

There also is something in the .ini file about settings for a public server. I keep mine private and with a password so that there isn't any unwelcomed people trying to connect. Also to change the.ini file you need to go to properties and then security and give the account you are on permission to edit the file or else it won't let you save changes


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