# Small Touring Sound Set-Up



## Spectre7 (Dec 31, 2010)

I am trying to put together a small set of equipment that will allow the company I am employed by to have a mobile and efficient sound set up for small bands and live sound productions. I have the sole decision in what is purchased, and this is what I had in mind. I am posting to receive input on the arrangement and equipment. Everything is up for discussion. If you think it sucks and all should be redone, say so, but also why. Though I have several years of experience in the field, I want additional input before spending the money. 

*Consoles*
FOH - Mackie VLZ 24-4 Pro
Monitor - Mackie VLZ 24-4 Pro

*Microphones*
Shure SM58 (6)
Sure BETA57a (4)
Audio Technica Wireless Handhelds (4)

*Processing, Effects, EQ*
RANE ME-60 EQ (2)
dbx Advanced Feedback Suppressor
dbx 1074 Compressor (2)
Alesis MidiVerb Multi Effects Processor

*Heads/Amplification* 
QSC RMX1450 (2)
QSC RMX2450 (2)

*Speaker Cabinets*
Yamaha S115V Full Range (6)
Yamaha S12 Monitor Wedges (4)
QSC K12 Powered (2)

*Snake Line*
Horizon Venue Professional
or
RamTech

*CD Deck*
Tascam CD-450

*Power Conditioning*
ETA


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## derekleffew (Dec 31, 2010)

I'll let others with more current knowledge speak to the equipment specifics, but some items I don't see listed:

mic stands
speaker stands/rigging
DIs
drum mics
cables: mic, instrument, speaker, power
band stringer
power distro


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## Footer (Dec 31, 2010)

A good splitter snake could easily cost as much as your consoles and PA put together. Also, cases are going to be a must and could possibly double your budget. Mackie's don't really take to the road to well, they will need all they help they can get. 

Just to throw it out there... this stuff is going to be pretty budget gear. It will work great for a traditional bar band rig. If you can afford to have a monitor engineer, I think you might want to think about investing in some better gear. That mackie console is not a monitor desk. Without a stack of graphs or a drive rack you are going to be fighting wedges with that console... it simply does not have the EQ's to do what you need to do and what bands expect. 

Are you going to need to be fulfilling any riders with this rig or is it just for in house use? What size band are we talking here? With the looks of your mic package the bands would be no bigger then a 3 piece with a small kit. 

My 2 c's.....
If you want to stay analog look at the Allen & Heath GL line. By far the most rider friendly small portable console out there. Not only will it make other people that use your gear happy but it also sounds much better and has great EQ's. You get a lot of bang for you buck. 
Get a drive rack for monitor world. 
I would also highly consider for a portable rig to go digital. It will cut down on what you have to carry and how much setup you need in each venue. However, it does have its drawbacks for on the fly mixing with no sound check or rehearsal. 
Add some direct boxes for monitor world/acoustics as well as some 81's for overheads. Also, a kick mic is a necessity.
Those Yamaha speakers work but there is much better stuff out there.

Overall, its a decent bar rig. Its what just about every bar band that plays around here carries except for the ones that hire out audio. Its not the most professional rig ever. Its not going to win any awards. However, if the patrons are there more for the booze then the band it will be great. If people are paying 30 dollars a ticket to hear whatever you are putting over the PA, it might be time to double or triple the budget.

So... you just need to ask yourself if having a bar rig is what you are going for. If it is, fine. If its not, we can help... but your going to have to spend more cash.


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## soundlight (Dec 31, 2010)

If you could give parameters about what kind of gigs this system would do that would be great - what kinds of bands and other productions, venue sizes, etc. As Footer said, that's a standard bar band rig that you've put together. I'd tweak it a little bit but before I say anything I'd like to fully understand the applications that the system will be used for.


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## len (Dec 31, 2010)

Comments from a lighting guy. Take them for what they're worth.

The two most popular small system speaker boxes I see are JBL and some Nexo. Some people also use Yorkville, EV, and even Peavey. No one uses Yamaha. I never see anything but Crown amps. Either everyone loves them or they really are the best. 

For boards, most people carry Midas. I don't think they are cheap, tho. 

Mics, I see a lot of Shure, but some Sennheiser, too.

Of course, it depends on budget, too.


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## mstaylor (Dec 31, 2010)

No matter what type of system you are building, don't use the Mackie for a monitering board, it's OK for a house board but I have recently switched out a Mackie for an A&H. I am sceptical about the mains but I will leave that to the sound experts, which I am not. I would qustion the mic package but I don't know the numbers of mics to tell you the difference. I work festivals with a sound company that has a case of mics so I know what to where by the look.


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## Spectre7 (Dec 31, 2010)

I'm very happy with all of the information I've received thus far, but I apologize for leaving out so many details. I'll give more explanation to what I write also.

*Mic Stands*
Mainly boom stands, but also several straight stands.

*DIs*
Whirlwind Director, if anything larger is needed I have considered a Whirlwind Direct4

*Additional Mics; Drum Mics*
I should've listed this, but I forgot to.
I'd like to use a 5 piece micing kit to atleast have the snare, toms, and kick drum covered. I feel like our company does not do sound at large enough events to warrant the micing of metal parts. Possible the hi-hat if anything. Shure looked like a decent choice to me, but I'd love input on that.

*Cables*
I felt as though these were implied, but I should've just listed them.
Neutrix Connectors on all cables
Speakon
Balanced XLR
TRS
TS

*Staging*
Already have access to a Wenger portable stage and the employees know how to set it up safely and correctly.

I am currently in the market for new consoles (as I find most sound guys always want a different or larger model). We already have the Mackies, but they are older and outdated. I would prefer a A&H with around 24 total channels and 20 true XLR channels. I have always been told your monitor console has to be the same as your main console? At this smaller level does that even matter?

I recognize that Crown are the standard in amplification, however QSC is the driving name in and around where I live. I have seen and used both and they are almost identically priced for the wattage. We have always used QSC and I have never had any complaints.

Yes, the Yamaha mains are crap. I truly have no idea as to what type of speakers to purchase. We use all L'Acoustic speakers in the theatre I work in, but those cost so much we could never afford them. I'd love to find a decent medium.

Thanks for all the help thus far, keep em coming.


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## Spectre7 (Dec 31, 2010)

soundlight said:


> If you could give parameters about what kind of gigs this system would do that would be great - what kinds of bands and other productions, venue sizes, etc. . .


 I'd like to be able to cover events with 600 to 800 people either indoors or in a small outdoor area. As for band size, your traditional rock band or other local groups who contract my company. We want to stay versatile.


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## mstaylor (Dec 31, 2010)

QSCs will do nicely for what you are doing. I would suggest a few smaller mic stands to mic amps and the kit.


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## bishopthomas (Dec 31, 2010)

*Consoles*
FOH - Mackie VLZ 24-4 Pro *It can work*
Monitor - Mackie VLZ 24-4 Pro *Definitely not a monitor console. You might as well just mix from FOH. Check out the Allen and Heath MixWiz Monitor console. 16 channels, 12 mixes, built in splitter*

*Microphones*
Shure SM58 (6) *The standard for a reason*
Sure BETA57a (4) *Save yourself the cash and stick with the SM57. I like the Beta, but on if you also have a slew of SM's.*
Audio Technica Wireless Handhelds (4) *Which model is this and why do you think you need wireless? I am a fan of the Sennheiser ew135.*

*Processing, Effects, EQ*
RANE ME-60 EQ (2) *I'm not familiar with this particular model, but I would try to stick with DBX on the low end, or maybe try to find a used Ashly. Some of the digital EQ's out there are pretty neat and come in at least 4 channels per unit*
dbx Advanced Feedback Suppressor *Why do you feel you need this?*
dbx 1074 Compressor (2) *Sure, if you want a compressor...*
Alesis MidiVerb Multi Effects Processor *Not a fan... See if you can find some low end (or used) TC Electronic or Lexicon unit*

*Heads/Amplification* 
QSC RMX1450 (2) *Not a bad amplifier, but HEAVY. Try to stick to the PLX range if possible.*
QSC RMX2450 (2)

*Speaker Cabinets* - *Maybe a description of what your plan is with these... No subs?*
Yamaha S115V Full Range (6)
Yamaha S12 Monitor Wedges (4)
QSC K12 Powered (2) *Why powered? Why not go all powered if you're going to do it?*

*Snake Line*
Horizon Venue Professional or RamTech *You really can't beat EWI cabling (Audiopile Pro Audio  Welcome to Audiopile) on a budget.*

*CD Deck*
Tascam CD-450 *Okay, but also make sure you have an iPod cable handy.*

*Power Conditioning*
ETA *A rack mount power conditioner is not much more than a power strip with lights. But they're handy to have.*


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## Spectre7 (Dec 31, 2010)

bishopthomas said:


> *Consoles*
> FOH - Mackie VLZ 24-4 Pro *It can work*
> Monitor - Mackie VLZ 24-4 Pro *Definitely not a monitor console. You might as well just mix from FOH. Check out the Allen and Heath MixWiz Monitor console. 16 channels, 12 mixes, built in splitter*
> 
> ...


 
I was looking into Audio Technica 2000 or 3000 series. The reason I was prompted to use them is because of the heavy use they receive at the Grammys. I know obviously that the only reason that they are used at the Grammys has a lot to do with advertising, money, and a deal that neither group could pass up, but I've never had problems with them.

I listed the EQ incorrectly. The model is actually the Rane DEQ60L. I already own a set of these and just intended to include them in the tour rig. These retail for $700 to $800, and the theatre I also work for bought 2 shortly before switching to digital. Once they switched to digital (a few months after buying them), my boss wanted to sell the graphic EQ and made me an offer I couldn't turn down (especially considering how new and unused these are). I paid $200 each for them and I was pretty happy. I do however like the dbx EQ. Any particular model?

The purpose of the powered speakers was simply if our company was asked to do something really small. Like maybe if someone wanted a wedding DJ or something simple. In todays market, and the fact that I live in a small town, we seldom turn down business and we just wanted something simple and easy if needed.

I always have an iPod or MP3 cable ready (though I didn't mention it). Always a TRS 1/8 inch to spit TS 1/4 inch. I typically split it over 2 channels.


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## bishopthomas (Dec 31, 2010)

I know what you're saying about having a small SOS (speaker on stick) rig, but it might make more sense to be able to utilize all of your gear for various gigs. What I mean is, if you're only doing a SOS gig, the entire "A" rig shouldn't be sitting there making no money. You should have pulled a pair of speakers from the A rig. And vice versa, if your A rig is going out then you don't want a pair of speakers sitting around not making money. Rather than building an A rig and a B rig, build an A rig that can BECOME the B rig.

This is why we have a pile of VRX's for tops/subs and 14 JRX's for monitors. Need to fly 6 boxes per side from motors/truss? Put them in the truck. The next day we have a SOS corporate gig? The same speakers (only a pair) go to that gig. A bar band needs something we don't care about getting beer spilled on? The monitors from the first gig go on poles in the bar. It's all about being modular and maximizing profits and ROI (return on investment).


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## Spectre7 (Dec 31, 2010)

Isn't the VRX line in the $3k range? I haven't ever gotten a quote on them but I believe I heard that before.


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## bishopthomas (Dec 31, 2010)

MAP is $2149, but we're dealers so that helps a little. I wasn't suggesting buying VRX's, only giving you an example based on what we do. Whatever you buy stick to one model so that you can scale your rig as needed.


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## Anonymous067 (Dec 31, 2010)

Spectre7 said:


> I always have an iPod or MP3 cable ready (though I didn't mention it). Always a TRS 1/8 inch to spit TS 1/4 inch. I typically split it over 2 channels.


 
Well, it's not really being _split_, it's just taking the L down one side and the R on the other...hence the TS (unbalanced) ends at the console...
Since it was already "split", you aren't really splitting it, more less just keeping it separate...


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## Anonymous067 (Dec 31, 2010)

Not to be rude, but given the OP's sig (website, use Google), it appears this is a DJ set up, not a touring set up.

Thanks,


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## Van (Dec 31, 2010)

Anonymous067 said:


> Not to be rude, but given the OP's sig (website, use Google), it appears this is a DJ set up, not a touring set up.
> 
> Thanks,


And what bearing does that have on the thread ? I believe, if you read the OP you would notice that he states it is for bands and audio productions < read that as DJ'ing > Since CB caters to every aspect of production and technical events I, for one, do not see how it effects anything.


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## gcpsoundlight (Dec 31, 2010)

One Console that could be good for monitor work is the Presonus StudioLive24. 24 Ins, 10 Aux out plus L/R. PLUS Full Graphic EQ, HP, Comp/Limit on ALL Ins & Outs. And only about AUD$6K. Plus you can do a recording off it with firewire.


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## avkid (Jan 1, 2011)

gcpsoundlight said:


> One Console that could be good for monitor work is the Presonus StudioLive24. 24 Ins, 10 Aux out plus L/R. PLUS Full Graphic EQ, HP, Comp/Limit on ALL Ins & Outs. And only about AUD$6K. Plus you can do a recording off it with firewire.


However, it mutes when changing scenes.
Dealbreaker!

When it comes to 4 bus consoles APB Dynasonics is the final word.
APB-DynaSonics ProDesk


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## amberjel (Jan 1, 2011)

I would be hesitant to recommend Audio Technica mics. I've never had a major problem, but I have found them hard to find replacements for in a pinch. I recently did a show where 4 of my wireless lav mics went bad dress rehearsal night and I couldn't find anyone that carried Audiotechnica. Everyone had Shure in stock. Also the sound quality between Audiotechnica and Shure are night and day. I would stick with Shure all the way. 

Like I said, there's nothing terribly wrong with the audiotechnica, its just not a favorite of mine due to availability. Check your local stores before you order so you know if you have a dealer near by.


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## gcpsoundlight (Jan 1, 2011)

avkid said:


> However, it mutes when changing scenes.
> Dealbreaker!


 
That Shouldn't be a problem for foldback, you just set and mix! If it was being used for FOH, then that would be a problem, but I don't see a reason for using scenes.

The other benefit is that if you need more ins/outs, you can link the consoles VIA Firewire. 48/20 desk with FULL EQ on ALL Ins/Outs for $16K!


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## Spectre7 (Jan 1, 2011)

amberjel said:


> I would be hesitant to recommend Audio Technica mics. I've never had a major problem, but I have found them hard to find replacements for in a pinch. I recently did a show where 4 of my wireless lav mics went bad dress rehearsal night and I couldn't find anyone that carried Audiotechnica. Everyone had Shure in stock. Also the sound quality between Audiotechnica and Shure are night and day. I would stick with Shure all the way.
> 
> Like I said, there's nothing terribly wrong with the audiotechnica, its just not a favorite of mine due to availability. Check your local stores before you order so you know if you have a dealer near by.



Our local retailer carries Shure wired and Audio Technica 2000 through 4000 in stock always. Had they normally stocked the Shure wireless, I'd definitely go for it. I'm in a really weird spot for sound. Everyone around here loves AT Wireless, Shure wired and QSC amps lol. Because of this, Crown amps and Shure wireless have to be special ordered. I have worked with both Shure and AT, and I agree that it is night and day.


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## avkid (Jan 1, 2011)

There happens to be an excellent professional AT dealer in Virginia.
http://www.entsyscorp.com/


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## Footer (Jan 1, 2011)

gcpsoundlight said:


> That Shouldn't be a problem for foldback, you just set and mix! If it was being used for FOH, then that would be a problem, but I don't see a reason for using scenes.
> 
> The other benefit is that if you need more ins/outs, you can link the consoles VIA Firewire. 48/20 desk with FULL EQ on ALL Ins/Outs for $16K!



Scenes are the reason you go digital for monitors. Can't tell you how many times we have had to rent an M7 or PM5D for monitors just so someone can pop in a jump drive and jump through scenes all night. The nice thing when mixing monitors, especially ears, on a digital console is you can have preset for each song so the band gets exactly what they had during sound check.... as long as they did not change anything after sound check .


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## gcpsoundlight (Jan 1, 2011)

Footer said:


> Scenes are the reason you go digital for monitors. Can't tell you how many times we have had to rent an M7 or PM5D for monitors just so someone can pop in a jump drive and jump through scenes all night. The nice thing when mixing monitors, especially ears, on a digital console is you can have preset for each song so the band gets exactly what they had during sound check.... as long as they did not change anything after sound check .


 ... In which case it is not relevent that it mutes. The reasons for suggesting this desk were the built in EQ, and expandability. As the 'Op origonally suggested a Mackie, this implies that he would be happy with analog, but Spectre7 can you please clarify on that.

(By the way, I agree that it is great to have scenes on a M7, they are hard things to busk on!)


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## bishopthomas (Jan 1, 2011)

gcpsoundlight said:


> (By the way, I agree that it is great to have scenes on a M7, they are hard things to busk on!)


 
By "busk" I assume you mean "mix." I'm not sure what's so hard about mixing on an M7. It has pushy things and turny things just like every other console known to man.


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## TimmyP1955 (Jan 1, 2011)

*Consoles*
FOH - Mackie VLZ 24-4 Pro - Get a MixWiz or a GL2400 (or 2200).

Monitor - Mackie VLZ 24-4 Pro - Get a MixWiz Monitor or a GL as above.

(Or go digital.)



*Microphones*

Shure SM58 (6) - I much prefer the sound of the Sennheiser E835.

Sure BETA57a (4) - I'd go with the Audix D4 instead - much smaller and lighter.

Audio Technica Wireless Handhelds (4) - Which ones? Get something with the same capsule as your wired vocal mics. Be mindful of the new new FCC rules.



*Processing, Effects, EQ* (Not needed if you go with a digital console.)
RANE ME-60 EQ (2) - A good choice, as is the dbx 1231

dbx Advanced Feedback Suppressor - not needed.

dbx 1074 Compressor (2) - Never used one. I like the Rane G4

Alesis MidiVerb Multi Effects Processor - Which version? I hate the MV4. I like the Kurzweil Rumour, most TC, most Yamaha, and most Lexicon (some models won't go 100% wet - not good!).


*Heads/Amplification* 
QSC RMX1450 (2)
QSC RMX2450 (2)

Good choices, but heavy and not as power efficient as the PLX.


*Power Conditioning*
ETA Not needed.


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## Anonymous067 (Jan 1, 2011)

EDIT: [oops, wrong thread. Sorry guys!]


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## museav (Jan 1, 2011)

Van said:


> And what bearing does that have on the thread ? I believe, if you read the OP you would notice that he states it is for bands and audio productions < read that as DJ'ing > Since CB caters to every aspect of production and technical events I, for one, do not see how it effects anything.


I actually see several ways it may affect things on a more general basis involving experience with live sound involving performers and performances such as those envisioned. For example, I see separate FOH and monitor mixers, however I don't see any mic splits and the products and quantities listed seem more indicative of where you'd see one console used for both purposes rather than having separate FOH and monitor consoles. I'm not real sure what mixer is being referenced as the "VLZ 24-4 Pro" does not seem to be a valid model and the Mackie SR24.4-VLZ Pro has been discontinued, but I would say that a different console, perhaps a digital console with onboard effects and/or or larger input count console, may make more sense than having separate FOH and monitor consoles. I also see six Yamaha S115V mains, two Yamaha S12 monitors and two QSC K12 speakers, but no indication of why these quantities or how they plan to use them. For example, why six S115V mains and could the planned implementation require additional processing? And no subwoofers for a DJ service and events up to 800 people outdoors? Then there's the feedback suppressor but no apparent system processing. Or that the Multidirector is the generally wrong DI device for stage/touring type applications, you'll normally see multiple single channel boxes that can be used on stage. And what about racks, storage cases, etc.?

I don't know that actual basis for your list and whether it reflects what you have used in the past for such events or seen in use locally for similar performances or what potential clients have asked for. If there isn't some strong basis like that behind the list then I would suggest starting over. Look at things like what your competition has or uses, how much you can charge and what that justifies in terms of investment, what the bands may be looking for or accept (FWIW, the equipment listed seems to conflict with the claim on your web site that you use top-end equipment while others use cheap equipment) and so on. Think about how flexible the system needs to be in accommodating different venues and applications. Consider having spares of common items along with some common tools and how you are going to transport everything to and around gigs. Think about what you can do to make setup and break down easier and/or faster. Maybe even think about things like potential cross rental with other providers in the area.


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## Spectre7 (Jan 1, 2011)

gcpsoundlight said:


> ... this implies that he would be happy with analog, but Spectre7 can you please clarify on that.



To clarify, I am interested in an analog console. Most decent digital consoles are far more expensive (even when you factor that you don't need effects or processing equipment any longer) and I have never felt that purchasing one is feasible at this time. The only thing that I believe we have looked into was a Yamaha 01V96VCM.


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## mstaylor (Jan 1, 2011)

If you are in a QSC area, why not use their speakers as well as their amps?


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## museav (Jan 1, 2011)

Spectre7 said:


> To clarify, I am interested in an analog console. Most decent digital consoles are far more expensive (even when you factor that you don't need effects or processing equipment any longer) and I have never felt that purchasing one is feasible at this time. The only thing that I believe we have looked into was a Yamaha 01V96VCM.


This may go back to the overall issue of what 'level' of gear and capabilities are you looking for. If you are at a level where any of the digital console options are too expensive then you're likely also at a point where separate FOH and monitor consoles would be unusual. There is not just the cost of the second console but also that a dedicated monitor mixer means having to somehow get the signals to both consoles and may also involve dedicated effects and signal processing as well as a dedicated operator. Then there's also the issue of having to transport and setup just two consoles, two effects racks and all the related interconnects. So if you look at what it might actually cost you to run a dedicated monitor mix and any added value in simplifying the setup, for the events you'll apparently be serving might it make seems to make more sense to instead invest that in a single console. That may allow for some digital console options.

In its price range the Yamaha S115V is a good general purpose speaker. However, for a live rock or DJ event for 500+ people outdoors, it's probably not enough unless the intent is more as background music. And using multiple of those boxes is probably not the best solution to addressing larger events. While how you plan to actually use the quantity and models of speakers listed in not exactly clear (such as why six S115V mains or what the K12s are for), you might want to think about either limiting what events you expect this system to support and renting for larger events or rethinking your speaker and amplifier choices. And there are probably few who would attempt the type of events you apparently are considering without subwoofers.

Also don't forget all the little items like adapters, speaker covers, road cases for the mixers, road racks for the amps and processors, a canopy for outdoor events and so forth. It's easy to say "yeah, we'll get that" but the reality is that all these ancillary parts and pieces can start to add up, especially if building from scratch.

You also probably want to look back at Derek's comment about a power distro. You probably won't be plugging everything into one 20A circuit, you'll need multiple circuits. And not all venues may provide you multiple single phase, 20A Edisons, you may get a 30A two phase connection on a twistlock or two or three phase on camlocks or whatever. So Getting those connections to what you need and where you need it is the role of a distro and the related feeder cable. Depending on what you need and how nice you want it, these can get expensive. If you have an idea of the venues where you might work then you might want to see what they will be able to provide to support your system and make sure that you have the power distribution necessary to make that work.


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## Spectre7 (Jan 1, 2011)

So the basic concept that I'm getting is that I should get a digital console... Maybe a LS9-16 with I/O expander or 01V96VCM with I/O expander, and use its capabilities to run monitors from there? Also then dump the efx, processors, and EQ since the board has it already. Maybe get a Yamaha SPX2000 with the extra money I'll save from not needing to but more racks and analog equipment?

Also, find better speakers?


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## bishopthomas (Jan 1, 2011)

If you can swing the LS9-16 that's really the way to go. If you only need 16 channels then you can double the inputs to the second layer and run monitors from there. That way all of your channel settings (minus the head amp) will be separated between monitors and FOH. A lot of people like the O1V for live sound but I'm not a big fan. Honestly, I'd rather have a MixWiz than have to navigate around on that clunky thing.

Sure, find better speakers, or lower your expectations. It's easy for us to suggest buying a VDosc rig, but you know your budget and what you are trying to accomplish. Sometimes those two things cannot go together and that's when you have to rethink things.


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## Spectre7 (Jan 1, 2011)

bishopthomas said:


> If you can swing the LS9-16 that's really the way to go. If you only need 16 channels then you can double the inputs to the second layer and run monitors from there. That way all of your channel settings (minus the head amp) will be separated between monitors and FOH. A lot of people like the O1V for live sound but I'm not a big fan. Honestly, I'd rather have a MixWiz than have to navigate around on that clunky thing.
> 
> Sure, find better speakers, or lower your expectations. It's easy for us to suggest buying a VDosc rig, but you know your budget and what you are trying to accomplish. Sometimes those two things cannot go together and that's when you have to rethink things.


 
What are your problems with the 01V? I'm just curious as it would be most cost effective for our purposes.


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## bishopthomas (Jan 1, 2011)

It can work and is decent for the price, but it's just too slow for live use. The LS9 is bordering for me, even after thousands of hours on it. You can download all of the Yamaha console offline editors from the web site. You install Studio Manager, then each OLE runs within it. I would suggest at least playing around with that before committing to a console, if you can't rent one or play with it in your local pro audio store.


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## Spectre7 (Jan 1, 2011)

Slow as in processing speed or just in the way its layered causing operation to be slow?


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## bishopthomas (Jan 1, 2011)

No, nothing to do with processing speed, just hard to navigate. I'm sure it's all a matter of getting used to, but I'll take real knobs on small consoles and go digital when the budget is there to support a "real" digital console.


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## museav (Jan 2, 2011)

Spectre7 said:


> Slow as in processing speed or just in the way its layered causing operation to be slow?


The latter, which is common for many consoles that were really designed for recording/studio use being used for live sound applications. They can work and some get very proficient at them, but that may take some work to get there. Which perhaps touches on another potential factor in any decision which is who may be using the console and their experience? Are you looking at scenarios where only you will ever be operating the system or may you encounter situations where others may be operating it, perhaps even without you having someone there all the time? If you may have instances where others operate the system then you likely want to consider that in both the console and effects used as well as in the system processing. You would usually want a mixing console that most of your intended users will be able to walk up and operate without much training. You probably also want a system that is as 'idiot proof' as possible, you may have in your Contract for the venue or whatever to pay for any damages to the system but while that is being resolved you could be without a system, so what is the value of some additional protection to help prevent that from happening?


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## museav (Jan 2, 2011)

gcpsoundlight said:


> The other benefit is that if you need more ins/outs, you can link the consoles VIA Firewire. 48/20 desk with FULL EQ on ALL Ins/Outs for $16K!


I would not call it a 48/20 console, rather a 48x4x3 with 10 auxes. Also, linking two StudioLive consoles does not double everything. It combines the input count, however aux sends are shared across both consoles, thus no expansion in aux sends. Effects sends and effect processors remain independent for each console. And Groups are either four shared Groups across the two consoles or four Groups per console. So still a lot of 'bang for the buck', but not as much expansion as some think when they are cascaded.

The scene recall of the StudioLive may or may not be an issue. Because it does not have motorized faders the process with a StudioLive is to select to recall a scene, at which point the faders are disabled and everything runs as it was set. Then you manually move the faders to the indicated positions and once that is done you push a button to make the faders active again. That and the muting may not be a problem between bands but between songs it could be, especially if you want to have some inputs stay live. And when you cascade consoles the scene recall is independent for each console, so the process has to be performed individually for both consoles.


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## jeffsw6 (Jan 2, 2011)

Spectre7 said:


> Though I have several years of experience in the field, I want additional input before spending the money.


Kudos for soliciting input from peers before investing in gear. I've read all the current posts in the thread, and I would like to point out that some of your statements indicate your experience on the live audio side of things may be less than you fully realize. I don't imagine good results when planing to do a 600-800 person gig with a few Yamaha Club cabinets. I think you should spend some time at gigs in your area, of similar size and genre as the acts you want to provide for, and get a feel for what your competitors are deploying. I think you'll soon decide that your budget needs to increase 4x - 10x!


Spectre7 said:


> FOH - Mackie VLZ 24-4 Pro
> Monitor - Mackie VLZ 24-4 Pro


I see in other posts that you are considering various digital consoles, but already own these Mackie VLZs. These are not acceptable consoles for any gig with a Band Engineer involved, and IMO not acceptable for much of anything, given the limited 3-band EQ. If you aren't using them, I suggest you sell them and recover some of your investment.

The 01V/LS9 suggestions are good. Keep in mind that the LS9 does not have VCA/DCAs while the 01V does (product positioning) however the LS9 has more buses. If an LS9 32 is not within your budget, you should probably make sure your employer has realistic expectations of what sort of customers/jobs they can get with this investment in gear, before they make purchases. You might be cross-renting a console a lot. With that said, all of these models have good resale value, and you won't take a big loss if you buy one, find they do not quite suit your business need, and need to sell it and upgrade.


Spectre7 said:


> Sure BETA57a (4)


It sounds like your business need is for entry-level, rider-friendly mic kit. I would avoid spending extra money on things like Beta57A until you have enough of the standard-bearers, e.g. SM57 and drum mics.

Thinking that you won't need to mic "anything metal" for 800 guest gigs is a plan to fail. Not only will many customers insist on drum overheads or a few good mics around the drum kit (in addition to HH, which you covered) you will find it necessary to supply these mics whether or not they are needed in the mix for a particular event. If the rider / input list calls for drum overheads, you generally don't say to the tour, "can we strike the overheads since the venue is small?" You just supply them and let the tour's FoH guy decide if he needs to use them or not.

As far as drum mics go, IMO you can't go wrong with typical Shure or Audix mic kit. You will sometimes have to rent (or just buy) something different to satisfy a customer, but most customers are going to ask for common mics, or they will be carrying their own.


Spectre7 said:


> dbx Advanced Feedback Suppressor


If you think you need this, I again urge you to reconsider how much experience you have gained recently. If you aren't confident in your ability to notch out feedback from wedges/room on your own, practice! Keep in mind that most feedback comes from the wedges, not the PA. So one AFS unit on your PA sends won't really do much of anything except put a crappy computer-guessed EQ curve on it.


Spectre7 said:


> *Heads/Amplification*
> *Speaker Cabinets*


Again, to do 800 guest events, you will need much more than what has been discussed so far. Check out some nearby gigs, look at what competitors are deploying at similar gigs to the ones your employer wants to bid on, and get a realistic feel for what you need to own. I wouldn't use Yamaha Club 15s for anything, as they just don't sound that good; but they will not be useful for much more than a 100-200 capacity bar, anyway.

You will need good wedges to work with touring acts, too. It isn't necessary to spend $2000/wedge but if you aren't spending at least $500, you can pretty much count on a good fraction of your artists being upset enough to remember your company provided them with junky wedges, which would not be good! I use JBL MRX512M at about $500ea and these are the cheapest wedges I find are worth owning. If I was doing more work with touring artists I'd spend $1000/wedge.

Also, you'll need some sort of drum monitor/sidefill/texas headphones rig. A decent 2x15 is IMO the best choice for smaller operations. I use JBL MRX525 and TR225 pretty much interchangeably for this, and at my level, I never get complaints about either box, even though the TR225 is pretty unpleasant as a PA cabinet. Here is a link to my opinion as to why selecting a drum monitor is really pretty different than a wedge for a singer: PSW Sound Reinforcement Forums: LAB Lounge => JBL SRX700 vs. PRX600


Spectre7 said:


> *Power Conditioning*


 Don't use any "power conditioners" on your amplifiers, the same way you wouldn't use them on your dimmer racks. Do buy something for your consoles and outboard gear, the same way as you probably own some kind of surge protection for your light consoles. Note that the sub-$100 Furman units are no better than $30 RadioShack power strips, and this is also true of all the Monster Power products (at least up to the $500 level.) An online UPS that puts out a true sine wave from a motor/inverter is a well-liked setup but is bulkier and more expensive than sub-$100 Furmans. SurgeX is often cited as the best manufacturer of surge protection devices for our industry. Their technology is not the same as $30 RadioShack strips; but I believe a similar technology is used in the mid-range Furman stuff.

One final comment: don't bet your job on this! So far, it appears that your budget is far, far too low to do the 800 guest gigs you indicate you are interested in. If your bosses watch you invest their money in audio gear and it doesn't produce the ROI they expect, it may be bad for you! Be sure that you all have realistic expectations.

And don't bet your job on anything cheap like a Mackie mixer. In my day-job, there is a phrase: "nobody ever got fired for buying Cisco" (routers and switches.) If you are going to cut a corner to conserve costs, be sure your bosses know and agree!


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## Spectre7 (Jan 3, 2011)

Jeff, thank you very much. This is a lot of useful information.

I feel like I should throw out there that I'm only 17 years old. Most kids my age are wanting a nice new $20,000 car and I'm looking for that in equipment.

Everyone hates on the feedback suppression, and I don't really need it. I have not had feedback at any venue, theatre, or concert I have ever worked at (knock on wood) and I don't plan to. However, I realize that in this world anyone can rent my companies services but this does not mean they are competent to use or work with it. A suppressor was mainly to act as a fail safe for novice performers that did something stupid with a mic. I realize that most suppressors offer very little and only are effective under certain conditions, if at all. However, its still one fail safe you can have wired into the system.

As for speakers, every mobile venue in my area, north, and south, use Yamaha cabs as mains. Obviously the theatres I work in use L'Acoustics and Renkus Heinz, but not mobile groups. With even good quality mobile groups around here, you get Yamaha cabs, JBL subs, and Yamaha wedges (maybe even EV) all powered by QSC RMX. Its just how it is. I have never had a performer complain of wedges or sound. I'm not saying that there isn't way better stuff out there, I'm just saying that either the people in my tri-state area are complacent with the equipment, or they frankly don't give a crap. It may be a combination of both.


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## jeffsw6 (Jan 3, 2011)

Spectre7 said:


> I realize that most suppressors offer very little and only are effective under certain conditions, if at all. However, its still one fail safe you can have wired into the system.


Actually, they are worse than nothing. There are several reasons, but the most basic one is that the AFS units all basically use sophisticated guesses to apply notch filters to the mix. False positives do happen and are detrimental to the mix, sometimes audibly and sometimes not. These units also typically do not have digital I/O but their operation internally is digital, so they add another A/D/A stage to your signal path, increasing system delay and sometimes raising noise floor or otherwise introducing artifacts that are not desirable. So even when the AFS unit is "doing nothing," it's worse than not having it there at all. No serious touring engineer will accept the use of such devices.


Spectre7 said:


> As for speakers, every mobile venue in my area, north, and south, use Yamaha cabs as mains.


 If this is the case for the acts your company wishes to provide for, go for it. I think it is more likely that local cover bands and low-budget shows use these crappy rigs, while customers that are actually worth having (they actually have a budget for sound/lighting) would not accept Yamaha Clubs. I sure wouldn't.

Are you looking to provide for local cover bands, not touring acts? This is a question that needs to be asked and answered, and will greatly influence your purchasing decisions. My PA system is "in the middle" for small venues, which means I have a big gear advantage over competitors for the local cover bands, but I am only a low-budget option for anything bigger. I have about $20k in my "A rig" and I do not bid anything over 500 guests.


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## museav (Jan 3, 2011)

Spectre7 said:


> As for speakers, every mobile venue in my area, north, and south, use Yamaha cabs as mains. Obviously the theatres I work in use L'Acoustics and Renkus Heinz, but not mobile groups. With even good quality mobile groups around here, you get Yamaha cabs, JBL subs, and Yamaha wedges (maybe even EV) all powered by QSC RMX. Its just how it is. I have never had a performer complain of wedges or sound. I'm not saying that there isn't way better stuff out there, I'm just saying that either the people in my tri-state area are complacent with the equipment, or they frankly don't give a crap. It may be a combination of both.


Now we're getting somewhere in terms of defining your potential market, use and clientele and thus having a better basis to comment on your equipment list. But also keep in mind that the result is not defined just by the equipment but also by how that equipment is applied and how the system is operated. It's very easy to get bad sound with good gear and more difficult, but still often possible, to get good sound with lesser gear.

If you want a feedback suppressor for a mic then that may work fine, but putting one on the entire mix means that the correction applied for any feedback from any input gets applied to everything. It's also fun to watch operators end up fighting a feedback suppressor, it makes a change and they hear something change so they try to compensate just putting you right back where you started and starting the entire cycle over again.


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## DuckJordan (Jan 3, 2011)

Now i notice that you are a pro... This means two things to me, you probably don't ever pay for your own equipment or you get handed gear spec'ed by system engineer... While you note using JBL's all the time in your post above. I have noticed that JBL is a higher cost than what they are actually worth. I mean no disrespect for you, but i will have to dissagree on a couple of things.

First is the need for high quality wedges. Unless your providing for diva'd pop stars or bands who work with the best equipment everyday (probably not going to be using your gear, they probably will bring their own on the tour) the cheaper 300-400$ wedges will be more than enough. Wedges don't necesarily need to sound as good as the main PA just good enough to make sure the performers can stay in tune and on correct tempo, Too often i see rider specs that require better wedges than the main PA. When i ask about it they say "well that's what we used first so we thought that's what we always had to have."

I do have to agree though to eliminate the automatic feedback remover, we had one in our venue made our system sound like crap, took it out of the chain did some actual eq work and now the system sound phenomenal.

I will also have to agree to go see some concerts and events that are expecting the 700-800 outdoors events and notice how the speakers sound when being "absorbed" by the bodies in the crowd. It takes a lot of power to provide PA for an open air situation, it takes about 1/4 of that to provide for Indoor events. also if your expecting to handle that many people you should expect to get a larger budget than what you describe. Its just not able to provide for that large of an audience with that low of a budget.


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## somebodyrocks (Jan 3, 2011)

jeffsw6 said:


> If this is the case for the acts your company wishes to provide for, go for it. I think it is more likely that local cover bands and low-budget shows use these crappy rigs, while customers that are actually worth having (they actually have a budget for sound/lighting) would not accept Yamaha Clubs. I sure wouldn't.


 
Being a representative of the company Spectre7 works for, I think you should move down here to Morgantown, West Virginia and try offering your services since they're apparently so good and everyone would just fall at your feet to have them.

Unfortunately man, Spectre7 is right... the things he's listed are pretty much the norm for this area. I've seen Crown amps used here, I've seen other types of cabs here (namely, EV - and quite frankly, do you think a cheaper set of EV cabs or wedges is better than Yamaha ones?). The point the boy makes is that this is what he has access to or is thinking of buying - he's asked advice, and then for anything that isn't doable, he's stated a reason why. I'm sure your advice has been helpful to him, but the fact that the market here is QSC & Yamaha is just how it is. Playing a large role in this company, I can tell you that if I put $50,000 into a rig, I would probably never make my money back doing 500 people or less venues & shows. It is unfortunate that this particular market is saturated with "cheap audio people" as I'd like to call them. You don't know how many times I've seen someone with a stupid PA DJ "Rig" try to run audio for a "small" concert. It's horrendous, but true. About 30 miles south of us is a "Professional Audio Company" that charges $45/hour for "PA Setup for Bands, Weddings, and other Events" - no joke. I haven't ever seen their system, but they come from a small town of poverty and I would assume their system is probably worth about $45/hour if you get what I'm saying.


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## Spectre7 (Jan 3, 2011)

Look. Like I said. I'm up for creative criticism, but not for an all out bashing of my gear and myself. Due to my location and finances and the finances of this particular company, I can usually do very decently with what I am provided with. I've shown up to gigs and they want crystal clear sound to come out of some off brand speakers with a powered mixer. Obviously I cant make the GRAMMYs happen, but I'll make due. I work other places, and have grown accustom to the Renkus Heinz, Yamaha LS9-32, L'Acoustic, and RamTech equipment that exists at the theatre I'm employed in. But for what I do, its not really necessary. Most all bands and other local groups are more than impressed and far satisfied with what we provide right this second. And that is using a Yamaha MG series mixer.


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## Spectre7 (Jan 3, 2011)

And yes. Events of 500 would probably be our limit. However we have done indoor venues with the same setup and have have 8 or 9 hundred people. Of course, indoors require less sound.


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## bishopthomas (Jan 3, 2011)

Spectre7 said:


> I'm not saying that there isn't way better stuff out there, I'm just saying that either the people in my *tri-state area* are complacent with the equipment, or they frankly don't give a crap. It may be a combination of both.


 
This is the key statement (especially that in bold) that we have been missing before. I think maybe your terminology was a little confusing. Your thread is titled "touring sound" so we maybe started assuming you meant you were providing PA for touring bands, some with touring engineers, and most with riders and contracts. I think a more appropriate title might be "Small Portable Sound Set-Up." I think Jeff said it best: "customers worth having..." Don't waste your time bringing Yamaha club series gear to a bar for a band that's not going to pay what you're worth. Most bands want to pay next to nothing for a PA to play covers in a bar. And I can't say I blame them. But in my experience bar bands are not willing to pay me my day rate just to show up with tape, a Sharpee, and headphones, much less pay for the rental on the gear. I don't do it (never have) and focus my time and energy on having quality clients that value good gear and experienced operators. Why would I want to make $100 a day 7 days a week when I can make $1000 a day, even if I'm only working one day that week?


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## jeffsw6 (Jan 3, 2011)

DuckJordan said:


> Now i notice that you are a pro... This means two things to me, you probably don't ever pay for your own equipment or you get handed gear spec'ed by system engineer... While you note using JBL's all the time in your post above. I have noticed that JBL is a higher cost than what they are actually worth. I mean no disrespect for you, but i will have to dissagree on a couple of things.


I own my gear, bought and paid for through hard work. If I spec something for a walk-in, I want a system capable of providing the audience with the show they are paying for. BEs don't request "expensive" PA systems just because they want cool toys; they want the tools needed to make their artist sound good.

The reason tours refuse things like Yamaha Club wedges (which might sometimes be acceptable), or request 48 channel consoles when they only have 20 inputs, is a bit different: this is done to ensure that small, inexperienced providers are not able to meet their rider requirements, so the tour doesn't have to take a chance on a small company getting in over their heads.

JBL makes a lot of good-value products, along with some over-priced ones where you are really buying a crappy box with the orange logo. You have probably heard JBL EONs, which would be an example of "logo tax." On the other hand, the SRX728S is the best value subwoofer in its class by a significant margin -- you have to spend $3000/box to get a better sub. Electro-Voice, to use them as an example, don't even make a sub as good as this, for any price.

If you are going to make purchasing decisions on $20k+ worth of equipment, you would be well advised to take a closer look at cost/benefit of some brands that you may currently feel are "over-priced" before buying boxes.

I don't know that I would call myself a "pro," either. I earn money doing this, have more in audio gear than many people have in total net worth, and do professional work for my customers; but I'm not providing to serious touring artists with real frequency. *If you want touring customers* you'll need to quickly acquire, well, more gear than me; and bone up on a lot of skills you will soon need. If that is not the customers you are after, then many of the replies you have received to your original question may not be in the right context (so you should clarify and get more suitable replies.)


DuckJordan said:


> First is the need for high quality wedges. Unless your providing for diva'd pop stars or bands who work with the best equipment everyday (probably not going to be using your gear, they probably will bring their own on the tour) the cheaper 300-400$ wedges will be more than enough.


Tours generally don't want to carry monitor rigs, because any provider who is capable of supplying them with PA can also get suitable monitors for them. If they are carrying full production, obviously they don't need any local audio gear at all.

Also, it's not just "diva'd pop stars" who want quality wedges. You may not appreciate the value of a good wedge until you spend a lot of time on-stage or behind the monitor console. The musicians don't hear the PA system, they hear the wedges; and that is what they need to perform well and have a satisfying gig. Drummers don't tell you to turn up the kick in the house mix, because they can't hear it. They will tell you if they can't hear themselves play over the other noise-makers on stage.

As a small provider doing local cover bands, 50% more wedge investment is probably a better way to differentiate yourself from competitors than 50% more PA. This is something I learned the hard way, after having a substantially superior PA to local competitors, but crappy wedges that generated complaints from customers. I upgraded and the complaints turned into praise about how much better the monitors sounded than when the same customers had used other local outfits. You can choose to learn the same way I did; but I suggest you skip the aggravation and expense and go right to a halfway-decent wedge in the $500-$1000 range, instead of get by with a $300 CM12V (a fine wedge for its price, but not useful to me.)



somebodyrocks said:


> Being a representative of the company Spectre7 works for, I think you should move down here to Morgantown, West Virginia and try offering your services since they're apparently so good and everyone would just fall at your feet to have them.


Do you understand the cost break-down of doing the gigs you are interested in? How much is labor, logistics, power distribution, tools, etc. etc. and how much is actually the cost of owning gear? Better gear is not as big a piece of the overall cost as you may think, but it is a good way to capture customers, especially since you don't already have an established reputation as a sound contractor. Gear doesn't make customers fall at your feet, but it is a selling point that is easy to put to pen and paper.


somebodyrocks said:


> Playing a large role in this company, I can tell you that if I put $50,000 into a rig, I would probably never make my money back doing 500 people or less venues & shows. It is unfortunate that this particular market is saturated with "cheap audio people" as I'd like to call them.


Why would you want to position yourself as yet another "cheap audio" outfit? If you can't provide more than they do, a guy without liability insurance, box trucks, warehouse space, workman's comp, 941 payments, etc. has far lower cost than you. Trying to compete in the bottom of the market may not be a good plan for a business that has those expenses.


Spectre7 said:


> Look. Like I said. I'm up for creative criticism, but not for an all out bashing of my gear and myself.


 No one is bashing you or your gear. One thing you will need to learn is that people absolutely will bash "you and your gear" in real life. Musicians will tell you that your wedges suck, they'll whine and cry about their monitor mixes to no end, promoters will demand more subs, patrons will harass you at FoH, and touring customers may ask why the hell they are putting up with you (even if you have the best gear in town!) You don't have to do anything wrong to catch a muso or customer on a bad day, a promoter looking to blame the sound guy for poor alcohol sales, or drunk guests to just treat you badly because they are drunk guests. If you feel the need to be defensive on an Internet forum where every poster is offering a helpful reply to your question, you probably need to thicken up your skin before you end up being seen as someone who is hard to work with. I don't know exactly what your experience is, but I can tell you that providing sound, for tours or bar-bands, involves a type of customer that can be a lot tougher to work for than, say, theater work, mobile DJing, or working with the same regular band for years, even when you are doing everything right.


bishopthomas said:


> "customers worth having..." Don't waste your time bringing Yamaha club series gear to a bar for a band that's not going to pay what you're worth. Most bands want to pay next to nothing for a PA to play covers in a bar. And I can't say I blame them.


About 50% of my gigs are absolutely not worth doing, if money is the only issue. For me, it isn't; I have quickly built a reputation for quality work by getting out and working a lot. But I sure don't make much on the hour when I load-in at 4pm and finish load-out at 4:00am on a bar-band's budget. However, I do own the necessary gear to do quality work and slightly bigger gigs, so I can go out and make $600-$1000/gig with the same rig for a different type of customer. That's about my max revenue per gig right now and it isn't going to increase without, you guessed it, owning more gear. And what I've got now is a fair bit better than what the OP is looking at -- and more importantly, I have differentiated myself from competitors by not owning the same boxes as the "cheap audio people" I find myself bidding against. Generally, I own much better gear than the "SOS rig" from a larger production company, and for them to do an SOS job costs more than for me to bring my A-game. I think I have positioned myself effectively to turn a profit on enough gigs to continue growing.


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## Pie4Weebl (Jan 4, 2011)

somebodyrocks said:


> Being a representative of the company Spectre7 works for, I think you should move down here to Morgantown, West Virginia and try offering your services since they're apparently so good and everyone would just fall at your feet to have them.


No need to act like that.


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## museav (Jan 4, 2011)

somebodyrocks said:


> Being a representative of the company Spectre7 works for, I think you should move down here to Morgantown, West Virginia and try offering your services since they're apparently so good and everyone would just fall at your feet to have them.


Can we please avoid such comments, they don't benefit anyone.


Spectre7 said:


> Look. Like I said. I'm up for creative criticism, but not for an all out bashing of my gear and myself.


Many of the comments made were likely affected by other's understanding of the application. I agree with the others that "touring" usually infers factors such as meeting tech riders and that would typically affect some of the comments and recommendations. And similar issues in terms of experience with the application. But now we seem to be past that and getting a better feel for the application.

jeffsw6 made a good point in that general descriptions such a "Crown amps" or "QSC" can define a wide range of products. The more specific you can be in such references the better. There also seemed to be some indication that some of the equipment may be existing, if so then identifying that would help as that could definitely factor into any comments and recommendations. There may be many things that are such givens or so obvious to you that it is easy to overlook that they are not necessarily known at all to the rest of us.

My comment regarding the skill set matching the equipment was addressing that there may be certain skills that are relevant to any endeavor like this. For example, your experience and/or training with system processing and system tuning in general could affect whether subwoofers, fills, etc. might be be a good option. And your familiarity with any particular processor devices could affect what specific products might be recommended. It is almost always better to have components and a system that you can employ effectively than to have 'better' pieces that may not be applied as well. That may mean limiting the equipment and approaches used or including some relevant training, education or experience as part of the list of things needed.




I would like to go back to addressing the speakers. You noted six Yamaha S115V "Full Range" speakers, four Yamaha S12 monitors and two QSC K12 powered speakers. You also noted two QSC RMX1450 amps and two QSC RMX2450 amps along with two Rane ME60 two channel, one-third octave equalizers. How you envision using the various speakers and the relationship of processors, amps and speakers is not clear, for example:

Four monitor sends based on the four monitor speakers would seem to use two of the amps and all four channels of EQ, thus leaving two amps and no EQ for the other six unpowered and two powered speakers.
What is the purpose of the two powered speakers?
What is the reasoning for six of the S115V speakers? Would these be all for mains, some mix of mains and monitors, mains and fills or what?
There may be very good reasoning behind the models and quantities noted, however not understanding the planned intent makes it difficult to comment on them or to offer possible alternatives.


DuckJordan said:


> Now i notice that you are a pro... This means two things to me, you probably don't ever pay for your own equipment or you get handed gear spec'ed by system engineer...


I personally believe that being professional relates to the attitude and approach, not the gear used or who owns it. Using higher quality equipment does not by itself make one professional and there are plenty of smaller system providers with their own entry or mid level equipment that are much more professional than some of their competitors with more and/or more expensive gear. I personally am usually much more impressed with someone who can do a lot with a little.

Perception of equipment can be interesting. Through some mutual acquaintances, when All Time Low came through a local club I got involved in their demoing a Danley Sound speaker system for the event. While we loaded in the club staff was commenting about how much equipment we were bringing in, however when we loaded out after the show the same people commented about how good the sound was from so little gear (a credit to not only the gear but also to the band, Evan's mixing and Phil and Ivan's tuning). The equipment created an initial perception but the result defined the perception that people took away, and in that situation the result signficiantly altered the perception of the equipment.


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## bishopthomas (Jan 4, 2011)

I think the K12's are for SOS gigs, not necessarily to be incorporated into the "A rig." The purpose for the rest of it is still unexplained. Nice post, Brad, pretty much summarizes the entire thread.


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## jeffsw6 (Jan 4, 2011)

museav said:


> I would like to go back to addressing the speakers.


 I intentionally did not reply to the specifics of the proposed speaker setup, because it is so far off-base from the "touring" application, I simply rolled my thoughts up into raise the budget 4x - 10x. If "going back to the beginning" with a different premise for the use of the equipment, bar-bands and other entry-level work that maxes out at a few hundred dollars a night, my remarks are as follows:


Spectre7 said:


> Yamaha S115V Full Range (6)
> QSC K12 Powered (2)


How do you intend to use the (6) S115V speakers? These are a 90 degrees horizontal coverage box and are not useful in multiples. If you want more output than you can get from one box per side, choose something that costs more than $400 and has more output.

Why are you proposing (2) K12 along with the other non-powered speakers? Is this for an SOS setup? Have you compared the K12 to other modern offerings in this price range, such as the Mackie HD and JBL PRX600 series?

Other posters have pointed out the lack of subwoofers in your proposal. Why is that? This would never be acceptable in my market and I doubt it will be for any 800 (or 500) guest events where you are likely to be bidding against other providers who do offer subwoofers.

Good subwoofers is another way I differentiate myself from competitors. No one in my area can offer similar sub-bass output, at similar prices, as I do. The reason is quite simple: they are all using cheap subs, e.g. Yamaha CW218V or worse. This is noticed by customers and is a selling point. Subs are not just for the kick drum anymore; bass guitar, keyboards, and certainly modern DJ tracks, hip-hop artists, etc. have a ton of content to 40Hz and below. A PA system that doesn't at least go to 40Hz is not going to be competitive.


Spectre7 said:


> Yamaha S12 Monitor Wedges (4)


The choice of Yamaha S12 wedges is very misguided and indicates a fundamental lack of understanding of musicians' monitoring needs, on any level. These are a very small wedge with low 87dB nominal sensitivity and about 40w RMS thermal capability. They are a years-obsolete product. Trying to use these for even a bar-band is a plan to fail, period. If the OP already owns them, he should just go try it and find out for himself.

Some poster have pointed out that your proposal only contains four equalizers. Is your plan to have four monitor mixes and no EQ for the PA system? Will you adjust your DriveRack during the gig? I think you will find that is not user-friendly. Are you planning to use the DRPA "RTA" feature? DON'T!

The point I'm trying to make here is that the proposed system is not adequate for any level of work. In my market, you couldn't keep a bar-band paying $150/night with that, let alone satisfy any customers with larger budgets and professional expectations. If you want your employer to invest in a PA system and branch out to offer these services, you should set them, and yourself, up for success; don't be "penny wise and pound dumb," and eliminate yourself from being able to do profitable gigs.

Here is a thorough listing of every piece of gear that goes out for my small jobs:
(2) JBL MRX525, (2) JBL MRX528S, (4) JBL MRX512M, (1) JBL TR225
(2) Crown XTi 2000 (1) Behringer DCX2496 (1) Behringer EPX3000 (2) Behringer EP4000
(1) amplifier rack with patch panel, 50ft drive snake, power boxes
(1) NL4 13/4 50ft, (1) NL4 13/4 25ft, (2) NL4 13/2 25ft, (5) NL4 13/2 50ft, (3) NL4 13/2 10ft
(1) 24x8 snake, I own 150 and 100 foot lengths
(1) 8x0 50 foot drop snake
(10) 10ft mic cables (10) 30ft mic cables (6) 50ft mic cables; all with color-coding; (10) more 20ft spare mic cables
(4) 50ft power cables, (4) 25ft power cables, (3) drop boxes for stage power
(1) large 45x22.5 cable trunk
(5) SM58, (2) SM57, (1) Audix DP-5A kit, (1) Heil PR22, (1) Heil Handi
(9) tall mic booms, (8) short mic booms, (5) drum mic clips
(2) bags for mic stands
(1) Yamaha 01V96V2 in road case (1) PreSonus D8 (1) effect rack for D8 (1) 15ft fan-to-fan patch snake for 01V to main snake fan-tail

You will note that, when I take my B-rig out, I lack a lot of things that I would like to have. I really need another sub-snake and/or a few more color-coded mic cables, a real stage power string, a few more microphones, a real mic case, a mic stand case, more pre-amps and D/A for my 01V, I would like a Lexicon patched into it for better reverbs and easier effect changes (the V2 UI won't let you put many FX parameters on user keys) and so on. There are a lot of things I want, but for the money my B-rig earns, it basically receives upgrades as "hand-me-downs" from the slightly larger A-rig.

The above is the minimum I feel is acceptable for bar-bands. If I didn't think it was good enough for that, I wouldn't book it for those engagements. However, I know I am spending more time on setup/strike without having some extra snakes and such; and I obviously make sure the input list fits into 20 pre-amps or else I'd buy more I/O.

I hope this is helpful. A system similar to this, but with a few additions and a few modernizations (buy powered wedges, not MRX512M and XTi 2000, for example) can be profitable and can do good work. I would not suggest MRX528S as your only subwoofers; I only own these because they are easy to get up stairs and suitable for my small jobs. If you can only own one set of subs, get JBL SRX700 series.

Comments or bashing of my B-rig is welcome, by the way.


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