# how to soundproof a small club on a budget?



## DJHiggumz (Oct 8, 2012)

I'm working with a guy renovating a building into a dance club. every time we have an event we have neighbors complaining about noise. and they are at least 500 feet away! it is carpeted, and has a drop ceiling, so inside it isn't to reverberous or echoey. but we will be putting white curtains 6'' off the opposing wall to the dj setup. we are thinking about making a walk through coat hall from the front door to the front corner of the building which eliminates all glass contact with sound. the ceiling tiles are getting brittle, where I have my subs corner loaded there is white dust on them. we may end up replacing them with acoustic tiles

let me know if you have anything to say about the above, and if you have anything else to suggest. we don't want to have to crank the systems more inside, we just want to stop sound from leaving the building.


----------



## DrPinto (Oct 8, 2012)

Be very careful with curtains. Check it out with your local fire marshall. I'm sure curtains, as well as any other materials that you intend to use for soundproofing, must be fireproof. After the fire at The Station, fire marshals are a lot stricter.

The Station nightclub fire - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jae1fglq-9g


----------



## jglodeklights (Oct 8, 2012)

The first question is has the building been properly zoned and permitted for this type of business? Second, what is the general construction of it? Is it bare cinderblock, or cinderblock with drywall framed inside? Or is it wood stud construction? Or brick and mortar? What is above the drop ceiling?

Adding baffles such as curtains inside will only get you so far. Also, measure the decibels inside, and outside at 10, 100, 200, 300 and 400 feet and compare against your local regulations regarding noise. That will tell you how much you actually need to drop the noise level (if at all, your neighbors may just be cratchety).


----------



## DJHiggumz (Oct 8, 2012)

I believe he has the permits, he went to the town hall to ok everything. it is cinderblock with drywall inside, I don't know whats above the ceiling. it is carpeted, the carpet is pretty stained but we want to try and steam clean it and keep it for sound dampening.


----------



## avkid (Oct 8, 2012)

Layer some more drywall, or do a 1x insulated wall.


----------



## lwinters630 (Oct 8, 2012)

check out
Green Glue

It has a lot of info, (PS it is not really glue.)

also keep in mind that changing the angles of walls can help OR hurt acoustics.


----------



## JohnD (Oct 8, 2012)

Check out recording studio building techniques.
How to Build a Small Budget Recording Studio from Scratch 4/E: Mike Shea: 9780071782715: Amazon.com: Books
You also need to find out what are the offending frequencies, is it all low or total sound. 
If you do build the wall for a hallway by the windows, it will have to go all the way up to the real ceiling or roof, not just up to the suspended ceiling. The double wall technique might be helpful, typically a 2 x 6 top and bottom plate with staggered 2 x 4's on each side with fiberglass woven between them. Then two layers of sheetrock on each side, one set vertically and one horizontally. None of this is cheap or easy.


----------



## DJHiggumz (Oct 8, 2012)

difficulty is fine, but money is scarce. i'll bring up the methods with the boss


----------



## JohnD (Oct 8, 2012)

The curtain opposite the DJ setup won't help much unless it is very thick(and costly). You might consider sound absorbing baffles. Wooden boxes mounted on the wall filled with rock wool batting and covered with flameproof fabric.


----------



## bishopthomas (Oct 9, 2012)

Remember, mass is what deadens. A wall made of brick is going to block more noise (and lower frequencies) than a wall made of sheetrock. Sound is vibration. Vibrations carry through solid adjacent materials. Try to have as little hard surface contact as possible. You may not have the budget to float the floor and put rubber between joists, but try to get creative.


----------



## museav (Oct 9, 2012)

First, avoid the term "soundproof" as you will never obtain it. You can also probably ignore suggestions for absorptive materials and references to home studios, the first is generally an ineffective approach to sound isolation and latter is often not applicable to commercial projects.

I find there are generally two ways to approach such projects. The first approach is a more analytical approach where you define a desired result, establish a baseline of where you are relative to that and then try to develop solutions that address the differences between the two. The second approach is a more "try it and see" approach where you look at what is practical and might offer the most 'bang for the buck' and apply that, then see if the result is acceptable and if not move on to the next step. Note that with either approach you may find yourself at a point where the investment or physical changes required are greater than the Owner wishes to accept, the difference is often in whether that is determined after some investment in design and planning or in actual physical changes.

The first step in an analytical approach is typically assessing what sound isolation is required, which entails first determining what represents an acceptable result. If the local codes have a numeric noise ordinance that may be easy, it may say you have to be XdBA at the property line or something like that, some specific number that can be used to define an acceptable result and thus be used as a basis for determining what amount of additional sound isolation is required. If you have no noise ordinance or have a 'nuisance and annoyance' type ordinance you may have a much greater challenge right from the start in establishing what will be an accepted result.

If you don't have a numeric noise code then trying to get an agreement to what is an acceptable result may mean working with the parties affected to develop some more objective criteria. That may mean meeting with them and adjusting the sound system level and response until they deem it acceptable, documenting the resulting levels and response at various locations and getting them to 'sign off' on that being acceptable. If you can't establish an agreement upfront defining an acceptable result then in my experience you not only have rather limited basis for determining what to do or its potential value, but you may also find yourself fighting a battle that really has nothing to do with the noise levels. I tend to avoid those situations.

If you can establish a definitive goal then you probably next want to establish where you are relative to that and what reduction in the levels is required at what frequencies. At that point you can start looking at what may be required to achieve that improvement and the associated financial and practical factors. But without being able to first establish the goals an analytical approach may not be practical.

The risk with the 'bang for the buck' approach is that you can end up investing more than required or, and perhaps more likely, you can end up investing a lot without ever achieving an acceptable result. You may also run the risk of doing something hoping it works and then finding yourself having to change or undo what you just did in a later step.


For both approaches you will likely want to consider how the venue use and operations may factor in. For example, a common weak point in performance venues sound isolation is entries, not just in the doors, windows, etc. themselves but in what happens when they are operated. It doesn't matter how good of a door or window you use if it is open. You might also have to consider the impact of the mechanical systems in both the noise the create and the paths they provide to the exterior.

In general the sound isolation may come down to big things and little things. General wall and ceiling (don't forget to consider the possibility of sound going up and out) constructions and any penetrations of them. Space planning and wall sealing details. Masonry and framing with backer rod and resilient sealant. In many cases, if you can't or don't sweat the details then you can significantly limit the benefit of the big dollar items.


----------



## josh88 (Oct 9, 2012)

Similar to what brad said, also avoid the term "fireproof" you won't get there either. Flame retardant yes, but not fire proof. And you'll have to reapply retardant every so often. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## headcrab (Oct 9, 2012)

I think you could get both soundproof and fireproof with walls of several feet of concrete, placed underground.


----------



## JLNorthGA (Oct 9, 2012)

Some thoughts about remodeling.

Georgia Pacific has a product called "Hushboard" which is a "sound deadening" fiberboard product from Georgia Pacific. I use it on platforms to minimize the echoing and booming. I've a friend who is a builder who uses it in "theater" and "media" rooms. Basically it goes under the drywall. 

I've also built sound deadening cabinets using "Hushboard" to minimize the sound from dust collection systems.

If you can afford to remodel enough to replace the drywall, then this might work for you - it runs about $10 for a 4 x 8 sheet around here. You put it on the walls and then put on the drywall. It has worked for me.


----------



## BillESC (Oct 9, 2012)

You might also consider a product like Blockaid which is a vinyl sound barrier. It will reduce the transmission of sound.

Frequency Hz/reduction in dB

125/15 - 250/19 - 500/21 - 1000/28 - 2000/33 - 4000/37

A 270 sq.ft. roll runs $ 432.00


----------



## dboomer (Oct 9, 2012)

DJHiggumz said:


> we just want to stop sound from leaving the building.



First ... close all openings ... windows, doors, vents, etc. and keep them closed

What kind of foundation are you on? More times than not the problem is "impact transmission". Think about putting your ear on the train tracks and hearing the train miles away, well before you hear it in the air. Isolate your subs from directly contacting the floor by floating them on something appropriate.

How big is your budget? Everything else you can do is very expensive.

btw ... curtains aren't going to block the sound going out at all.


----------



## FMEng (Oct 10, 2012)

Brad identified the issues very well (as usual). There are no wall treatments, materials, curtains, foams, or whatever that can magically fix this for a few dollars. We're talking construction and there are many details that have to be gotten right, or you can expend a lot of effort and money with little results to show for it. For example, a small change in how framing is attached to the existing structure can greatly change the results. The question is do you gamble money trying to do it without really knowing how to do it? My advise would be to hire an acoustical engineer to evaluate the situation and devise a plan that will not only make it quieter, but also not violate all manner of fire and building codes. Noise control is the bread and butter of most acoustical firms. The consultation will cost some money, but should prove well worth it in the long run.


----------



## museav (Oct 10, 2012)

DJHiggumz said:


> I'm working with a guy renovating a building into a dance club. every time we have an event we have neighbors complaining about noise. and they are at least 500 feet away!


Based on my experience, that neighbors have already complained about the noise and that they associated that noise with events there means that you are starting with two strikes against you and may have to go 'above and beyond' what you might if you were starting clean. On the other hand, if you are lucky they may view that you are trying to do something about it as representing 'good faith' on your part and be willing to work with you. That is a subjective read that someone might want to make as it could have a significant bearing on the situation and what you might need to do to achieve an acceptable result.


----------



## DJHiggumz (Oct 10, 2012)

Thank you all for the advice, tons of knowledge in this forum! JLNorthGA, I like the idea of the georgia pacific boards, my school has it or something similar down a brick hallway by the gym. I'm always facinated how it makes me feel as if my right ear has gone deaf as I walk by haha. at $10 a sheet it isn't bad. I could see keeping them outside of the drywall if acoustically possible, and if it's not white paint it white so we could uplight on them and use them as decor. they would also glow from the blacklights too. but does this absorb lowend? we will probably line the back of the room with it, because there is a bit of reverb. I'm thinking all the sound is going through the glass on the building. which we may end up closing the front window and door by creating a waiting hall/coat closet, so we have 2 sets of doors. our main problem is when the doors open. so we could "soundattenuate" the hell out of those walls.


----------



## TJCornish (Oct 10, 2012)

Clarifying a couple things - isolation != absorption. Most things that can provide good broadband isolation are actually fairly reflective back at the source - concrete, tile, even drywall. Absorptive things like curtains, foam, and carpet can absorb some reflections, but are generally not a good broadband sound barrier.

The tools you use will depend on the frequency band(s) you care about. High frequencies are likely handled adequately simply by making sure there are no air gaps - open doors or windows, etc. Lower frequencies are much harder to handle and depending on how much isolation you need, may be cost prohibitive to your project. BillESC listed the isolating properties of the material he recommended. You'll note that the product attenuates the sound 37dB at 4K, but only 15dB at 125Hz. It's likely even less at lower frequencies.

Be careful about tilting at too many windmills without a defined plan and some assurance that you will be successful before you start spending money.


----------



## JohnD (Oct 11, 2012)

What kind of neighbors do you have, is this in a totally commercial area, or a commercial building in a mostly residential area? When you speak of windows, is it just a few windows or a wall of plate glass? 
In defense of the book I suggested, the idea was that it provided the basics of sound attenuation, what to do and why, in a more accesable form than an expensive college textbook. Also, since this is a commercial space, get permits, and run anything you want to try(construction wise) past the building inspector, A building inspector can be your best friend, or your worst enemy. 
I was curious about dboomer's idea of isolating the subs and was wondering if something like this would help? At least it is cheap.
Rubber Horse Stall Mat, 4 ft. x 6 ft. - 2219003 | Tractor Supply Company
Also, I stand corrected on my use of the term fireproof.


----------



## museav (Oct 11, 2012)

Going from a completely acoustically reflective room to a completely acoustically absorptive room will only reduce the sound level the room adds, it does not provide any reduction in the direct sound itself. In a typical venue you may be able to get a couple of dB at low frequencies via added absorption and you likely need more than that.

Installing 'soundboard' over existing sheetrock could actually reduce the low frequency absorption the wall provides. Sheetrock walls tend to exhibit diaphragmatic absorption at lower frequencies, the sound energy actually 'flexes' the wall and that mechanically absorbs some of the energy. How that applies to your situation depends on the specifics of the existing construction but making the wall surface thicker and stiffer and you may reduce any diaphragmatic absorption. This is an example of where you might have to look at the details of what you have and the effects of changes rather than just assuming that products or treatments that addressed some other acoustical problem or are advertised as an acoustical product will work in your application.

A 'sound lock' may indeed be beneficial, especially if it provides another barrier from the windows. But is that the only related sound path? Since it would become part of an exit path, what would be required in terms of accessibility, life safety, HVAC, etc. to make it code compliant? What wall construction and construction details would be structurally required and also appropriate in order to achieve the attenuation desired? What is that desired attenuation?

Perhaps the general situation can be summed up simply by your defining whether the goal is to do something or if the goal is to solve the problem. If the goal is to do something then somewhat randomly throwing inexpensive 'acoustical' materials and construction changes at it is fulfilling that goal. However, that doesn't necesarily relate to preventing the neighbors complaining. If the goal is to prevent the complaints then it seems that you first have to determine what that represents and requires, and if it even is achievable, before starting to consider how to achieve it.


----------

