# CB: Technical Forum or English Class?



## nmccoart5

Has Control Booth turned into an English lesson? Tell us what you think!


----------



## LekoBoy

*Re: Control Booth: Tech. Forum or English Class??*

I think spelling terms and pieces of equipment correctly is kinda important. When I see people write Leco I know they don't know very much.


----------



## derekleffew

*CB: Tech. Form or English Class*

A fair and valid point was raised by nmccoart5. Since I can't add a poll to his thread, I'm merging his comments into this one.

Whatever the results, this doesn't mean in anyway [sic] that I'm going to stop playing Grammar Cop.
http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/members/nmccoart5.html


----------



## Van

I think perhaps we sometimes jump on peoples heads about spelling /grammar issues a little too hard but at the same time we have had some doozy's < doozeys> posted on here. Personally I have my issues occasional when I type too fast or if I don't go back and check myself. I don't think there is a huge issues with that and I appreciate the occasional jab by Derek at my mangled English. At the same time, however, I can tell you that good communication skills are EXTREMELY important in this business. If you cannot cogently relay your ideas or translate mental images into verbal < written> ones, then you will have a difficult time advancing in your career. Not too long ago I sat on a board at a local Community College. We were saddle with reviewing core and area specific educational requirements in several Liberal Arts degree areas. I was the Hard Ass on the panel. I was the one requiring more Mathematics and English Skills in order to graduate with a Theatre degree, even one in "just tech". I am often truly alarmed at the gaping holes in some applicants education and at their inability to properly express themselves.
So, to sum up, We might occasionally jump on folks heads but it's for the better good. I'm a carp I'll build you a bridge and you can get over it.


----------



## Charc

I think part of what the ol' guys do when policing grammar/spelling is looking out for the younger ones. It's important to remember that what you write reflects who you are. You're not likely to get hired if you write "Proffisient in LiteWrite and Vectour-works".

Always double check any official documents you're sending out like resumés, cover letters, etc.. Feel free to have friends and family glance over them too, because a fresh set of eyes can really help.

However, it's important to get into the mindset of putting your best foot forward, and, as "all the world's a stage", why not start here?


----------



## Footer

no L33t speak, thats all I really care about.


----------



## Serendipity

charcoaldabs said:


> You're not likely to get hired if you write "Proffisient in LiteWrite and Vectour-works".



Quoting me? Muahahaaaa...

I think we should continue having our grammar cops. It's important to teach people mild literacy. However, if it's someone's first post here, a simple reminder that we enjoy the use of the shift key and proper punctuation will suffice. I don't think we need to tackle the newbies and beat them too soon, though later... 
Naturally, if it's a technical term, correct it. We're here to help each other out, not to establish a sense of elitist (although we may be!) technicians vs uneducated, untouchable "techies".

Oh, and nice vote in the Poll, Derek.


----------



## cdub260

Yes, correcting mistakes is a good thing. A few spelling or grammar errors here and there don't bother me too much, but I've seen a few posts which I found completely unreadable. I absolutely agree with the general sentiment that you need to be able to communicate your ideas if you want to get anywhere in this, or any other industry. As far as the forums on this sight go, those of us who have been in the industry for a while can't help you if don't clearly communicate your question. And on those occasions when we need your help, if your answer is so poorly written that we can't understand it, you are no help to us.


----------



## derekleffew

cdub260 said:


> ... on this sight go, those ...


 Site. 

Now see, right there--that's my predicament. Should I?; or shouldn't I?; call attention to the error? In no way trying to be more grammatical than thou... (thee?)


----------



## Serendipity

derekleffew said:


> Now see, right there, is that's my predicament. Should I?; or shouldn't I?



Maybe we could add a little link below every post that says, "You illiterate!" and when opened lists corrections.


----------



## avare

If you can not communicate effectively with written posts that you can compose at your own pace, how do you expect to communicate effectively during the pressures of live performances?

Andre


----------



## cdub260

derekleffew said:


> Site.
> 
> Now see, right there, is that's my predicament. Should I?; or shouldn't I?; call attention to the error? In no way trying to be more grammatical than thou... (thee?)



Please do. I want people to point out my mistakes so I don't repeat them.


----------



## nmccoart5

I agree with cdub260... correcting vital mistakes such as the name of a company or piece of equipment is 100% necessary.... but sometimes people seem to take it to far... ie: Someone replying "You should use a comma to set off phrases that express contrast." or something of that nature.... is a little rediculous.... mabye we should pay a little attention to the spell check button located at the top right of this box?????


----------



## LightStud

avare said:


> If you can not communicate effectively with written posts that you can compose at your own pace, how do you expect to communicate effectively during the pressures of live performances


I cannot recall a situation, ever, where I've had to use my writing skills to effectively communicate *during* a performance. 
Now *IF* you're implying that it's better to say "John, go to the SL Fly Gallery and raise Lineset 27 two feet" than "Hey you, go up there and gimme another coupla feet on that one," with that I wholeheartedly agree.



nmccoart5 said:


> I agree with cdub260... correcting vital mistakes such as the name of a company or piece of equipment is 100% necessary.... but sometimes people seem to take it to far... ie: Someone replying "You should use a comma to set off phrases that express contrast." or something of that nature.... is a little ridiculous.... maybe we should pay a little attention to the spell check button located at the top right of this box?????


I'm pretty sure I have no magic button "at the top right of this box." I use Firefox, which underlines in red words it suspects are mispelled, as I type them. I suspect most other browsers have this feature as well, and if not, why not?


----------



## Les

I think it is a good idea for us to use proper English because it then becomes more natural to us. Honestly, for those of you who have ever used AIM or Yahoo! Messenger, how many times have you forgotten to capitalize "I" when referring yourself? I have on many occasions because I was used to getting sentences and thoughts out as quickly as possible while ignoring things like periods, commas, apostrophes, and capitalizations. Neglecting these fundamentals out of habit can easily spell disaster. I have emailed out several business inquiries where I have had to go back and capitalize i's and add apostrophes. It reminds me of this quote:

"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence then, is not an act, but a habit." -Aristotle-

When we get used to typing and communicating correctly, it becomes second nature to us. It's a lesson that translates to so many areas of life. 

For example: Wearing a seatbelt, using your blinker, using safety cables, saying "please" and "thank you", speaking correctly...

A little more on speaking correctly...

I'm from Texas. We're stereotyped as having a thick southern accent and using terms such as "y'all" and "fixin' to", but I can't tell you how many times I have been asked where I was from. People think I'm from the north (even people from the north!) because of the way I pronounce my words. I think it is because of sitting through so many notes sessions after rehearsals. Listening to directors stress pronunciations like "get, not git" or "many, not miny" has truly helped me become better at expressing myself - and separating myself from that redneck stereotype!


----------



## Chris15

Ladies and Gentlemen, I believe we have an uncited offence in the very topic of this thread... Are we or are we not discussing a Tech Forum rather than something I should be submitting to the tax department? And to boot, in it's current state, the thread title does not even make sense... (Figured out my opinion on the matter yet?)


----------



## Hughesie

The reason we seem so strick around here is because when someone comes along and finds your user profile (trust me it happens) and sees what language your using, that job interview you were going to have might just get filled before you get there. Future employeers are starting to look at social networking sites such as facebook to see what nutjob they are about to hire.

all of this is contained in our helpful guide to spelling on controlbooth

http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/...lling-grammar-controlbooth-com.html#post98228


----------



## Hughesie

Chris15 said:


> the thread title does not even make sense... (Figured out my opinion on the matter yet?)



CB: Tech. Form or English Class

It's two sentences and also a poor lexical clause.


----------



## Sean

Hughesie89 said:


> The reason we seem so strick around here is because when someone comes along and finds your user profile (trust me it happens) and sees what language your using, that job interview you were going to have might just get filled before you get there. Future employeers are starting to look at social networking sites such as facebook to see what nutjob they are about to hire.



Um, ok....

STRICT

YOU'RE 

EMPLOYERS



--Sean


----------



## derekleffew

Hughesie89 said:


> The reason we seem so strick around here is because when someone comes along and finds your user profile (trust me it happens) and sees what language your using, that job interview you were going to have might just get filled before you get there. Future employeers are starting to look at social networking sites such as facebook to see what nutjob they are about to hire.
> 
> all of this is contained in our helpful guide to spelling on controlbooth.
> 
> http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/...lling-grammar-controlbooth-com.html#post98228


Sean has cited the mispellings. The first sentence above falls into the category of run-on. Regarding the second: proper names are capitalized. Third: sentences begin with a capital letter, proper names are capitalized, and end with a period. Or, in this case, as the independent clause serves to introduce the link, a colon: http://www.creativeteachingsite.com/humorgrammar.htm.

While I'm _almost_ willing to suspect that your intentions are honorable, Hughesie, it's quite tiresome to continually edit and correct your entries in the Wiki, where grammatical errors serve to destroy the creditability of the article. 

Also, I suggest that one refrain from using the royal pronoun "we" in future writings, unless one possesses a mouse in his/her pocket.


----------



## JD

We must also remember that not all of our members are from the US. To some, English may even be a second language. (For me, typing is!) In any case, content is far more important. We risk insulting or alienating member by over correction. In a field that uses so many specialized names, content can sometimes be damaged by poor grammar or spelling. In those cases, it is worth pointing out.


----------



## lieperjp

Is it absolutely necessary? No. Does it make you as a writer look and sound smarter? Yes. A misspelled word or two, or even a mis-placed comma or two isn't the end of the world. Some people don't even realize they aren't properly typing. To answer a question (or ask one, for that matter) doesn't require picture perfect grammar and spelling. Yes, there are tools to help you - download Firefox with its built in spell checker. But blatantly obvious misspellings and grammar mistakes should be corrected in _the kindest possible way._ 


P.S. What is the current status quo on this topic? I would say the current status quo is "Mildly Strict."


----------



## Hughesie

derekleffew said:


> unless one possesses a mouse in his/her pocket.



His Name is Richard


----------



## JD

Of course computers are even fussier as seen in the syntax error above 


EDIT:
Here is a timely Time article that just hit today about changing the rules of spelling ! 

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1832104,00.html


----------



## ship

spell checker is a good concept (note me not capatilizing the first word in the sentence.) On the other hand has to be a bit of give and sway in being cop verses letting it go, I don't see a problem with balance and certainly not much calling others when they call a lamp a bulb though its like grinding the teeth for me when I hear it somehow.

Respecting foreign language of course - including that of UK verses US for both of us, still all well and good to communicate but part of that is being understood and I at least would hope that help is taken in the best sense rather than in the critical sense.

Main concept I would suspect is ability to understand the thoughts of those posting, product name recognition and if nothing else education also a partial role. Fourty years old and I still can't spell restraunt or maintinence properly. One would hope others possibly with nudging can learn better. This much less my run-ons and base writing skill.

Just as I would hope others excell beyond where I got, I would hope others excell in all ways and thank especially derekleffew at times watching over all of us as with others.


----------



## RichMoore

I, for one, am a lover of the English language and have attempted, through the years, to speak and write it correctly. With English being the internationally recognized language of all things technical, I think that it behooves us all to be able to communicate well and precisely, particularly when we are trying to describe a problem with which we are trying to deal and asking for assistance in the diagnosis and solving of said problem. 

That being said, I realize that many of the people with whom I deal on a daily basis, college students primarily, have difficulty understanding what I am trying to convey to them. Often times, I must repeat myself to one of my student techs who has a vacant and uncomprehending expression, while slowly nodding their head as though they truly understand what it is that I am telling them. When I see that expression, I know that I must then restate myself in much simpler terms.

While I am sure that to some I sound quite like a pompous a**, who has an affectation and affection for the overt usage of nonessential and excessive verbiage, I delight in the knowledge that I can communicate with others on a level that goes beyond....."what up dog?".

Just having a giggle,

Rich


----------



## Dally

I am terrible at typing, and often don't go back to make sure I put the letters in the correct order. I know I should correct it and thus do not mind people reminding me because it is a bad habit. However, 

derekleffew said:


> Now see, right there, is that's my predicament.


Sentences like the above REALLY bug me. I'll sit there going over and over it in my head to try to make sense of it or figure out why it seems wrong. In the above sentence it couldv'e went "right there, is the thing...." or right there, that's my prediciment"

I voted to be relaxed about grammar, but only because I feel like it is a slipperly slope. Once I start to correct on big things, I also want to point out those smaller mistakes as well. Of course, the slope does go both ways, but people tend to dislike you less when you don't correct their grammar.


----------



## lieperjp

Dally said:


> I am terrible at typing, and often don't go back to make sure I put the letters in the correct order. I know I should correct it and thus do not mind people reminding me because it is a bad habit. However,
> 
> 
> derekleffew said:
> 
> 
> 
> Now see, right there, is that's my predicament.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sentences like the above REALLY bug me. I'll sit there going over and over it in my head to try to make sense of it or figure out why it seems wrong. In the above sentence it could've went "right there, is the thing...." or right there, that's my predicament"
Click to expand...


I don't blame you. Technically,


derekleffew said:


> Now see, right there, is that's my predicament.



Isn't correct, because to fully extrapolate it would be:
_
Now see, right there, is that is my predicament._ 

There's an extra "is" in that sentence. That's probably why it didn't make sense. We don't know - is he asking "Is that my predicament?" or is he saying, "That is my predicament." Judging from the original post, I would have to say the latter.
_Sorry, Derek_


----------



## derekleffew

derekleffew said:


> ...Now see, right there, is that's my predicament. ...


 De nada, lieperjp.  http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/members/lieperjp.htmlJust like everyone else, occasionally my fingers want to type "is the thing" while my brain decides "that's my predicament" would be better. I don't proofread every one of my posts, and I'm not saying everyone must, either. All of us get tripped up by homonyms occasionally. In the case of post#8, an otherwise grammatically flawless post, it appeared to me as an error of ignorance rather than laziness, and to me, detracted from the message. Thus I decided the OP would appreciate a correction, as it makes him appear less learned than he most likely is. Another of our members constantly confuses "then" and "than". I corrected him once; he said he just couldn’t tell the difference, so I dropped it. I won't be hiring him to do any writing for me, and he's fine with that, as he doesn't care to be a writer anyhow.

I'm willing to over look most grammatical, and even spelling, errors, except the theater-specific terms included in this list: http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/...pelling-theatrical-brands-products-terms.html, which is constantly being updated. For a person who loves theatre to not take the time to learn to spell related terms and specifically names is unacceptable and inexcusable, in my opinion.


----------



## lieperjp

derekleffew said:


> De nada, lieperjp.  http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/members/lieperjp.htmlJust like everyone else, occasionally my fingers want to type "is the thing" while my brain decides "that's my predicament" would be better. I don't proofread every one of my posts, and I'm not saying everyone must, either. All of us get tripped up by homonyms occasionally. In the case of post#8, an otherwise grammatically flawless post, it appeared to me as an error of ignorance rather than laziness, and to me, detracted from the message. Thus I decided the OP would appreciate a correction, as it makes him appear less learned than he most likely is. Another of our members constantly confuses "then" and "than". I corrected him once; he said he just couldn’t tell the difference, so I dropped it. I won't be hiring him to do any writing for me, and he's fine with that, as he doesn't care to be a writer anyhow.
> 
> I'm willing to over look most grammatical, and even spelling, errors, except the theater-specific terms included in this list: http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/...pelling-theatrical-brands-products-terms.html, which is constantly being updated. For a person who loves theatre to not take the time to learn to spell related terms and specifically names is unacceptable and inexcusable, in my opinion.



Well said, Derek, Well said.


----------



## ship

RichMoore said:


> Often times, I must repeat myself to one of my student techs who has a vacant and uncomprehending expression, while slowly nodding their head as though they truly understand what it is that I am telling them. When I see that expression, I know that I must then restate myself in much simpler terms.
> 
> While I am sure that to some I sound quite like a pompous a**, who has an affectation and affection for the overt usage of nonessential and excessive verbiage, I delight in the knowledge that I can communicate with others on a level that goes beyond....."what up dog?".
> Rich



Much less I'm also glad "Dude" has been replaced somehow - pull up your pants already...

Repeat oneself in saying again even in email form of already having advised - this beyond having trained and it forgotton because it's not yet immediate enough to get yet. Loved when at times my school TD with a glass door would walk about the shop than go back and slam the door with such force it got both broken glass and a message across. Limited times I have been able to do that also has had the same effect. 

Earlier today I stood holding up a spray paint holding cabinet one of my assistants had gotten ready to mount to a rack post. Told him specifically how to mount it in him already having admitted in the past he doesn't even if Union carpenter, knew much about engineering. Didn't follow the directions so instead of removing one problematic thru-bolt in re-drilling after the other three were in that did align, I stood there, removed it for adjustmant than stood there again in wasting my time while he tried to make it fit. This with carriage bolts and nylock nuts. That at least he did listen to in me further holding the cabinet out of replacing and recognizing the concept of them not getting along. Slow learning process in general constant I find often at best in not being able to pass on what directions I might because those given direction are not ready to fully understand what concept passed on in following them.

Still, not pompous that I could see in even me at times correcting my Mom in say proper English than feeling like an idiot when such a concept like "please" gets an awkaward moment in me having let such a normal thing for me to let slip out. Mom even said a sware word this past weekend... Amazed and I made the mistake of calling her on it. Not that at times I don't also for effect.

Still that balance of education for that sense verses offending is on both parts I would hope understood by all parties so as not to take offense personally, just note by both also. At times stepped over the line and at times needed advise to learn with.

Believe it's rule #10, something about understanding what the TD said in the TD never being wrong. Has real refrence in general including language skills.


----------



## Radiant

My paying job, in part, is to transcribe television programs and create closed captions for the hearing impaired. I'm a bit of a stickler when it comes to grammar, and especially homonyms, though less so punctuation. I've had occasion to train a handful of people to transcribe, and it usually leaves me pulling my hair out. I'll often speak the following sentence pair and ask the trainee to type what I say: "Are you looking for Bob and Angie? They're over there on their couch." No one ever gets it the first time...

What occurs on ControlBooth often irks me. In correcting a poster's various errors, they are glaringly pointed out. The mistakes are sometimes corrected in the original post, highlighted in a different color. Or they may be quoted in reply, and the poster taken to task. The poster, in a way, is demeaned for his imperfections. 

If the moderators' goal is to make each post readable, correct in spelling, and sensible, why not simply edit the offending post for errors without pointing them out? The "last edited by" tag at the bottom of the post could contain a note that it was edited for spelling and grammar.

Tip for the day: When proofreading, read from right to left, end to beginning. When reading in the traditional English method, the mind has a tendency to ignore errors, choosing to see what it expects to see.


----------



## ship

Radiant said:


> If the moderators' goal is to make each post readable, correct in spelling, and sensible, why not simply edit the offending post for errors without pointing them out? The "last edited by" tag at the bottom of the post could contain a note that it was edited for spelling and grammar.



PM's are often slow to help if at all in taking a concept off line and not public, the goal as it were is to help not to grammer cop.

Editing a post could be really bad. Could have been intended to be that way and that could be important, much less who learns what from an edit other than it suddenly changed and that change didn't stream from the thoughts of the poster? I could be offended by an edit except often edits to my posts often catch stuff I didn't see and always welcome that help. Not all might feel that way. Editing a post in my opinion would be really bad. Intent is to help at times both technically and if possibly professionally in ways such as in spelling at times if of help at times. What's said is also in part a specific feeling out of the person writing it. Editing it would limit the ability to understand persay at times the level the person writing is at in rating what advice to give to the person. Not always but at times ability to write proper - or something approaching that is important in feeling out the writer.

Their efforts to re-post a corrected statement is their choice be it in an edit or re-posting of the statement after the correction. Such corrections being viewed as personal or a help for all also very weighted.

Now can anyone help me to spell restraunt without me having to switch to diner all the time?

Me in knowing better don't but I can't seem to on that or the proper maintinence. For me mental block in being able to find or remember.


----------



## derekleffew

Ship--it's probably a Chicago thing; you grew up in Cicero, didn't you? If you pronounce it "restraunt" (only two syllables), you'll always spell it incorrectly.

Memorize this photo, and recall it every time you write the word. Or go to the corner of W. Adams and State St. (Best German food outside Germany!)


----------



## RichMoore

Ship,

You could do what I do and just use the word 'cafe', since I can only spell restaurant when I use the spell checker.


----------



## ship

derekleffew said:


> Ship--it's probably a Chicago thing; you grew up in Cicero, didn't you? If you pronounce it "restraunt" (only two syllables), you'll always spell it incorrectly.
> 
> Memorize this photo, and recall it every time you write the word. Or go to the corner of W. Adams and State St. (Best German food outside Germany!)



Thanks, I'll print up a picture. Families from the south side, I was raised in the burbs... Worked many of the Burgoff October Fests' on the other hand - good beer... More a question for me when given the choice in studying spelling somehow that I never got, or watch TV, I normally chose the latter. For me figuring out how to spell as a concept in being a slow learner in being given spelling words and learning them in time for a test and not having a problem with writing 50x times each mis-spelled word on a test afterwards... I took the latter in still not learning how to spell them no matter how many times I re-wrote them. Only typing lamp notes later in the years for the most part has helped me learn to spell better, but not much in some words I have had to learn since the primary learning days.

Fact of being, I'm a slow learner... was hard for me to get out of boot camp and artillery school etc. But once I learned something, was ready to learn it and needed to know it, it than became photographic memory for me. Just took a bit of extra time at times or needed an immediancy for me.

We all learn differently. 

Point being sometimes if posting on line for some the nudge by others will help, for others one hopes they would not feel embarrissed or pressured overly, for some it won't help because they are not ready to learn yet. Still back to the concept, for all we have different ways of learning stuff. Nobody stupid, just different and different tacts to take on them.

Still thinking that gentle corrections at times if overt but simple or unclear otherwise to read and understand and PM's if less so able to help them without that understanding of it being help would be good.

Just as I just printed the Burgoff sign to stick to my computer, sometimes it does help that help and I admit I am not great in many areas. Once that's with all and realized no offense is meant none should be taken.

My opinion at least.


----------



## derekleffew

ship said:


> Just as I just printed the Burgoff sign to stick to my computer, ...


 A quick glance at the photo would show you it's The *Berghoff *Restaurant! (...in keeping with my new policy of only correcting proper nouns.)


----------



## Serendipity

derekleffew said:


> A quick glance at the photo would show you it's The *Berghoff *Restaurant! (...in keeping with my new policy of only correcting proper nouns.)



I'm very proud of your learned restraint to proper nouns. Maybe after a week of this, if you're still successful, we can make you a trophy. 

Am I allowed to correct people in their spelling of common nouns? I had difficulty choosing, but at the person joined today, I decided to let it go...


----------



## MNicolai

By the way, if anyone wants to understand why grammar is important; listen to Steven Pinker! He actually has a really cool book called _The Stuff of Thought: Language as a Window into Human Nature_. I strongly recommend anyone with 75 minutes to spare check this out; it's a long summary of that book. He's especially detailed in the psychology of the English language. It takes a really intelligent person to be able to understand why the strangest aspects of English, are the way they are.


----------



## philhaney

Serendipity said:


> I'm very proud of your learned restraint to proper nouns. Maybe after a week of this, if you're still successful, we can make you a trophy.
> 
> Am I allowed to correct people in their spelling of common nouns? I had difficulty choosing, but as the person joined today, I decided to let it go...




Don't see why not..... Just be polite. 

Who knows? In time you may just get your own trophy.


----------



## Pie4Weebl

on a different note, I don't think grammar should be attacked too much as the tone of the website is conversational, we are not writing letters to each other. With that in mind the long run on sentence I just used is not something I should be jumped on for.


----------



## derekleffew

Pie4Weebl said:


> on a different note, I don't think grammar should be attacked too much as the tone of the website is conversational, we are not writing letters to each other. With that in mind the long run on sentence I just used is not something I should be jumped on for.


While the tone of the website may indeed be conversational, often grammar is required--to aid in clarity. Interchanging "then and than" makes it more difficult to understand the writer's message. 

Perhaps it's a personal prejudice, but I cannot help thinking less of a person who constantly misuses "there, their, and they're," or "your and you're."

May I "jump on you" for not capitalizing the first letter or a sentence, or for ending a phrase with a preposition?


----------



## MNicolai

Another problem which kills message clarity is sentence structure. The most confusing part is when sentences are grammatically correct, but don't convey the thought as intended. I was just catching up on my _Rescue Me_ minisodes when I stumbles across this sentence which serves as a perfect example.


> During his funeral Sean and Maggie decide to get married at the cemetery.


That's a perfect sentence grammatically, but after reading it am lead to the wrong conclusion. That sentence seems to say that they decided *to have the wedding at a cemetery* rather than they *decided, at the cemetery, to become married.*

Food for thought...


----------



## Charc

Derek, I think Pie is no talking about then/than, but rather sentence structure, and overall structure.

I write, on CB, as if I were talking to someone, as I think Pie is referencing.

As such, I try and let my prose read as if I were talking to someone. Conversationally, we manipulate grammar all the time, and no one minds. As such, some of us manipulate grammar on CB for timing, or effect, or what ever.

I also tend to use contractions, typical in conversation, but not in writing, such as *'cause*. *It's* what *I'd* say to your face, so why not on CB?


----------



## derekleffew

> During his funeral Sean and Maggie decide to get married at the cemetery.




MNicolai said:


> ...That sentence seems to say that they decided *to have the wedding at a cemetery* rather than they *decided, at the cemetery, to become married.* ...


For me, the fact that they they wanted to have their wedding in a graveyard wasn't nearly as disturbing as Maggie willing to marry a dead person. Sorry Sean, I didn't even know you were ill.

In another forum, someone wrote "there are some articles on the cow that ill find and post a link to about building a project for digital signage, but the principals the same." Articles on the *cow*? I haven't a clue what that means. This? 



The entire sentence (and other errors in the rest of the post) makes me not want to rely on this person's research.


----------



## avare

Charc said:


> I write, on CB, as if I were talking to someone, as I think Pie is referencing.
> 
> As such, I try and let my prose read as if I were talking to someone.



This is not directed at you Charc. You brought the point up in my mind.

When talking to someone, you have instant feedback on the clarity of your communication. When writing, you don't. Clarity of communication is helped by using standards such as sentence structure, spelling, word selection, and grammar.

Andre


----------



## Charc

avare said:


> This is not directed at you Charc. You brought the point up in my mind.
> 
> When talking to someone, you have instant feedback on the clarity of your communication. When writing, you don't. Clarity of communication is helped by using standards such as sentence structure, spelling, word selection, and grammar.
> 
> Andre



Which is not to say I don't attempt that, I try and let it coexist with my style of writing.


----------



## derekleffew

Bump.


----------



## Hughesie

Ahem.


----------



## derekleffew




----------



## STEVETERRY

derekleffew said:


>



I would like to see "Eats, Shoots, and Leaves" by Lynne Truss as prerequisite reading for any further postings to this thread.

If you don't yet have it--buy it!!



ST


----------



## Grog12

I'm tired after a 15 hour day of (b)Nutcracker...so I'm not going to read through the 3 pages of this thread.

1) The title of this thread is incredibly funny.

2) This has always been a place where proffesional meets educational. And as such it needs to be educational. I make a few typos (I know derek has a running list of mine somewhere so that the day we finally meet he can throw it in my face) that being said:

LEARN TO SPELL AND GRAMMAR CHECK. As best as you can at a glance. I'm not asking you to use a fine tooth comb to proof read, but know this: some of the crap sentences that get posted on forums like this one would be ignored by proffesionals if recieved in an email.

Its a matter of practice. Its one of those first steps to being a proffesional. Type like a proffesional and you're one step closer to being one.

This is a great place to practice that. God knows I do. God knows that someone will grammar check this post to throw back at me. That's ok. 

When I worked at a university I not only corrected my students, but proffesors as well. How can you expect anyone to treat you seriously as an educator if you can't capitalize a sentence in your email?

Save L33t for text messages to your BFF's. Beyond that NEVER USE IT AGAIN.

/rant off.


----------



## derekleffew

professional


----------



## David Ashton

professor, received, sorry it's the thread.


----------



## Grog12

Told you so.


----------



## derekleffew

*Re:*

Irreverent posts moved here.


----------



## mbandgeek

Grog12 said:


> I'm tired after a 15 hour day of (b)Nutcracker...so I'm not going to read through the 3 pages of this thread.
> 
> 1) The title of this thread is incredibly funny.
> 
> 2) This has always been a place where proffesional meets educational. And as such it needs to be educational. I make a few typos (I know derek has a running list of mine somewhere so that the day we finally meet he can throw it in my face) that being said:
> 
> LEARN TO SPELL AND GRAMMAR CHECK. As best as you can at a glance. I'm not asking you to use a fine tooth comb to proof read, but know this: some of the crap sentences that get posted on forums like this one would be ignored by proffesionals if recieved in an email.
> 
> Its a matter of practice. Its one of those first steps to being a proffesional. Type like a proffesional and you're one step closer to being one.
> 
> This is a great place to practice that. God knows I do. God knows that someone will grammar check this post to throw back at me. That's ok.
> 
> When I worked at a university I not only corrected my students, but proffesors as well. How can you expect anyone to treat you seriously as an educator if you can't capitalize a sentence in your email?
> 
> Save L33t for text messages to your BFF's. Beyond that NEVER USE IT AGAIN.
> 
> /rant off.



It's great to see that i am not the only one enjoying Nutcracker. Except for my 16 hour crew shifts occurred over the past 2 weeks. I also agree on your stance about the professionalism that can be extracted from the way one writes. After being an active member here, I can hardly stand reading any other forum. It seems immature and childish.

(Oh and by the way, it's more commonly represented as 1337.)


----------



## philhaney

derekleffew said:


> In another forum, someone wrote, _"there are some articles on the cow that I'll find and post a link to about building a project for digital signage, but the principals the same."_ Articles on the *cow*? I haven't a clue what that means.



I believe "the cow" refers to a web site, like Tucows Download



derekleffew said:


> Irreverent posts moved here.



Would that be _*irreverent *_or _*irrelevant*_?


----------



## dvsDave

philhaney said:


> derekleffew said:
> 
> 
> 
> Irreverent posts moved here.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Would that be _*irreverent *_or _*irrelevant*_?
Click to expand...


Depends on how much you respect The Dark Side


----------



## Hughesie

Warm the fat lady up, this thread is going to get closed faster than a nightclub using pyrotechincs without a licence.


----------



## Dover

Grog12 said:


> Save L33t for text messages to your BFF's. Beyond that NEVER USE IT AGAIN.
> 
> /rant off.



I agree 100% and I won't answer any questions written in IM lingo, but I'm not going to jump on any one for it. If you want to look like an idiot that is your deal, and if you don't realize how bad it looks then one post from me correcting your spelling is not going to change things.

People like to wear their pants around their knees, I think it is indecent and makes them look stupid, but I don't go around yanking their pants back up.


----------



## Van

Dover said:


> .....People like to wear their pants around their knees, I think it is indecent and makes them look stupid, but I don't go around yanking their pants back up.


 
I think I just might mke that into a bumper sticker.


----------



## Eboy87

If I were in charge of hiring for a company, I would take the applicant's spelling and grammar into account. Now, that being said, to the person who mentioned that not everyone speaks English as their first language, I think we can all agree to be a bit more lenient for them. English isn't the easiest language by far. However, if you're in college and can't even type a proper response that doesn't leave the rest of us trying to help going, "What the **** did he just say?" then there's a problem. 

I say let the occasional grammar or spelling mistake go, but if we can't read what you typed, then someone needs to step in. To quote Danny from _Caddyshack_, "Great grammar."

This isn't Mrs. Smith's English class, but if you can't communicate effectively, how do expect to succeed in any career?


----------



## derekleffew

Is stress pushing spelling snobs over edge? - Behavior- msnbc.com
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2209553478


----------



## lieperjp

Dr. Grammar.

Any Questions? See the doctor.


----------



## NevilleLighting

Ok, so I HIRE people as electricians and ALD's. Let me tell you, when they can't spell the names of the consoles they supposedly know, or the equipment made by any manufacturer, I automatically ditch the resume. If you can't spell Obsession or Expression or the name of any other console you have supposedly spent hours in front of, well I have 30 other applicants for your job that can. Maybe I'm an old timer and I prefer people that can spell. Ok, I'm down with that, and I am unlikely to change. So, you can learn the proper spellings of the equipment you are using or limit your job opportunities. Your choice.


----------



## dvsDave

NevilleLighting said:


> Ok, so I HIRE people as electricians and ALD's. Let me tell you, when they can't spell the names of the consoles they supposedly know, or the equipment made by any manufacturer, I automatically ditch the resume. If you can't spell Obsession or Expression or the name of any other console you have supposedly spent hours in front of, well I have 30 other applicants for your job that can. Maybe I'm an old timer and I prefer people that can spell. Ok, I'm down with that, and I am unlikely to change. So, you can learn the proper spellings of the equipment you are using or limit your job opportunities. Your choice.



Now there is a resounding endorsement for our spelling policies... See kids? Learn to spell or go hungry.


----------



## coldnorth57

"Who utters sush depressing and disgusting noises has no right to be anywhere - no right to live. Remmber that you are a human being with a soul and the divine gift of articulate speech; that your native language is that of the Shakespeare and Milton and the Bible....." Pof. Henry Higgins MY FAIR LADY


----------



## dvsDave

coldnorth57 said:


> "Who utters sush depressing and disgusting noises has no right to be anywhere - no right to live. Remmber that you are a human being with a soul and the divine gift of articulate speech; that your native language is that of the Shaespeare and Milton and the Bible....." Pof. Henry Higgins MY FAIR LADY



Don't you mean Shakespeare ?


----------



## coldnorth57

opps a typo HA HA HA HA HA


----------



## dvsDave

coldnorth57 said:


> "Who utters sush depressing and disgusting noises has no right to be anywhere - no right to live. *Remmber* that you are a human being with a soul and the divine gift of articulate speech; that your native language is that of the Shakespeare and Milton and the Bible....." Pof. Henry Higgins MY FAIR LADY



that would be remember  ha ha ha.. too funny. Sorry man, just had to give you a hard time given the topic of the thread.


----------



## NickJones

I'd just like to say I DESPISE the word (if you could call it that) LOL. Are you seriously laughing?


----------



## IndigoFire

I think that conveying expressions like laughing (lol) is a great way to add to the point you are trying to make. That's not to say i believe in abbreviating everything you say.
Typos need to be accepted; we are human, we make mistakes.
As for spelling, yes people need to check what they are posting, but if you get the point across, seriously, where is the harm.
As for the captian commas out there: i know that should be a comma or semicolon, but not everyone else does. EASE UP!

Terms like "lol", "rofl" and other similar terms are becoming more and more part of modern culture. There is no real way to prevent such developments but i still agree that there is a need to maintain a certain quality.

/-\5 G|23/-\7 /-\5 13375p33k |5, |7'5 |-|/-\|2|) 2 |23/-\|)!!1!
(for the leetspeakers)


----------



## rcal

Lets be honest, if it's readable then grammar and spelling isn't all that important, if U tlk lyk ths tho, it gets a little confusing!


----------



## jackie15

*Re: Control Booth: Tech. Forum or English Class??*

I think spelling terms and pieces of equipment correctly is kinda important. When I see people write Leco I know they don't know very much.


----------



## museav

rcal said:


> Lets be honest, if it's readable then grammar and spelling isn't all that important, if U tlk lyk ths tho, it gets a little confusing!


Isn't that sort of like saying "if it doesn't fall now then how it's held up isn't important"?

Typos happen, but if someone doesn't seem to care enough to invest the time and effort to at least try to use correct grammar and spelling, then others may have trouble taking what they write seriously.

I may be an old fart, but I get worried when I see an attitude expressed that doing something right isn't important. Improper grammar and spelling may not seem a big deal, but if the attitude of accepting what is known to be wrong because it is easier or more expedient is deemed acceptable, then how long before that attitude starts to permeate into areas where it really can matter? When I look at resumes the grammar and spelling in them definitely does matter and it is something that I know from talking to others can affect how people view perspective employees and applicants.

I do find it ironic that in a time where spell check and auto correction is more prevalent and readily available than ever, you also seem to see more spelling and grammatical errors and poorer use of language than ever.


----------



## cdub260

museav said:


> Isn't that sort of like saying "if it doesn't fall now then how it's held up isn't important"?
> 
> Typos happen, but if someone doesn't seem to care enough to invest the time and effort to at least try to use correct grammar and spelling, then others may have trouble taking what they write seriously.
> 
> I may be an old fart, but I get worried when I see an attitude expressed that doing something right isn't important. Improper grammar and spelling may not seem a big deal, but if the attitude of accepting what is known to be wrong because it is easier or more expedient is deemed acceptable, then how long before that attitude starts to permeate into areas where it really can matter? When I look at resumes the grammar and spelling in them definitely does matter and it is something that I know from talking to others can affect how people view prospective employees and applicants.
> 
> I do find it ironic that in a time where spell check and auto correction is more prevalent and readily available than ever, you also seem to see more spelling and grammatical errors and poorer use of language than ever.



There you go. One minor grammer correction.


----------



## philhaney

museav said:


> ...When I look at resumes the grammar and spelling in them definitely does matter and it is something that I know from talking to others can affect how people view perspective employees and applicants.



So if I sent you my resume and my cover letter said, "I can haz job now?" I wouln't get hired?

Wai not?? 

(ducks and runs)


----------



## museav

cdub260 said:


> There you go. One minor grammar correction.


Returning the favor! 

Also reinforcing my point, while a minor mistake, rather than blowing it off as not being significant, I'm actually a bit embarrassed. I will think about that particular terminology in the future, thus I potentially benefit from your pointing it out. This can obviously be taken too far but I believe that learning of any type is part of what CB is all about.


----------



## mstaylor

I agree that when doing something in your profession you should try hard to do things correctly. I had an prospective employee fill out an application and in his work history he listed the reason for leaving a job as being disemployed. 
On a board like this everybody will have typos but you still have to try. Believe me I am a horrible speller but I try to use grammar properly and spell correctly. 
My pet pieve is using they're and there, to, two and too interchangably.


----------



## cdub260

museav said:


> Returning the favor!



Thank you. I can't believe I missed that.


mstaylor said:


> I agree that when doing something in your profession you should try hard to do things correctly. I had an prospective employee fill out an application and in his work history he listed the reason for leaving a job as being disemployed.
> On a board like this everybody will have typos but you still have to try. Believe me I am a horrible speller but I try to use grammar properly and spell correctly.
> My pet pieve is using they're and there, to, two and too interchangably.



What about their?

And it's peeve, not pieve.

I think I might start inserting mistakes in my posts just to see if anyone catches them.


----------



## derekleffew

museav said:


> ...I do find it ironic that in a time where spell check and auto correction is more prevalent and readily available than ever, you also seem to see more spelling and grammatical errors and poorer use of language than ever.


Purloined from the Stagecraft Mailing List:

> "Ode to my Spell Checker"
> 
> 
> Eye halve a spelling chequer
> It came with my pea sea
> It plainly marques four my revue
> Miss steaks eye kin knot sea.
> 
> Eye strike a key and type a word
> And weight four it two say
> Weather eye am wrong oar write
> It shows me strait a weigh.
> 
> As soon as a mist ache is maid
> It nose bee fore two long
> And eye can put the error rite
> Its rare lea ever wrong.
> 
> Eye have run this poem threw it
> I am shore your pleased two no
> Its letter perfect awl the weigh
> My chequer tolled me sew.


----------



## Les

Above, Derek subtly points out my personal pet peeves... The errors which spell check does not catch.

Things like:
They're, There, Their
To, Too
You're, Your 
Course, Coarse
Its, It's (I have violated this one many times in the past)
The list goes on. And on... And on.


----------



## JChenault

I have always been a terrible speller - so I may very well let the spell checker suggest a wrong word - but I can't understand lots of blatant errors in a post. I mean there is a spell check built into the browser.

What really makes me crazy, however, is folks who do not seem to read what they are posting before the push the button. They just type and submit. So many posts are so unclear that I find it a very hard to understand what the person is trying to say. 

IE I would like to see some more work on clarity and composition than spelling - not that spelling is not important, but (IMHO) it is not the most urgent problem.

Perhaps a poll on 'Do you read and re-edit your post prior to posting' might be in order. 

John


----------



## NickJones

For some reason Firefox only spell checks if I go advanced, not just Quick Reply, this bugs me.


----------



## death78

Being a newbie to this forum, I am glad to see that everyone takes spelling and grammar serious! My spelling had never been the best but I believe that if you make sure that you dont rush and actually READ what you have written before you post it, you will catch most of the spellings mistakes yourself.
And can someone tell me where the spell checker is on the Advanced poster, because I can not find it


----------



## derekleffew

death78 said:


> ... that everyone takes spelling and grammar serious! ...


"Seriously." Since the word is modifying a verb ("takes"), the adverb form is required.

The spell checker is built-in to the browser, not Control Booth. One of the best features of Firefox. It flags words not in its dictionary with a red underline. Most of these terms must be added manually.


----------



## philhaney

death78 said:


> Being a newbie to this forum, I am glad to see that everyone takes spelling and grammar serious! My spelling had never been the best but I believe that if you make sure that you dont rush and actually READ what you have written before you post it, you will catch most of the spellings mistakes yourself.
> And can someone tell me where the spell checker is on the Advanced poster, because I can not find it



Right here...




However, I had to download and install ieSpell to get it to work. So as Derek says, it's built into the browser, not ControlBooth.com.


----------



## philhaney

derekleffew said:


> Most of these terms must be added manually.



You are correct sir, and I have.

I just copied and pasted them into this reply, and then spell checked it. Then I deleted them...


----------



## NickVon

I think so long as a level of proffesionalism is maintained . Judging from responses from users most people here know what they are talking about and have very specific and vast knowledge. If users asking question can be understood with out having to translate into real sentance syntax i don't mind the abbreviations of words or typos/slang here and there.


----------



## NickVon

NickJones said:


> For some reason Firefox only spell checks if I go advanced, not just Quick Reply, this bugs me.


 
two words,

Google Chrome 

IMO  love it.


----------



## derekleffew

NickVon said:


> I think so long as a level of proffesionalism is maintained . Judging from responses from users most people here know what they are talking about and have very specific and vast knowledge. If users asking question can be understood with out having to translate into real sentance syntax i don't mind the abbreviations of words or typos/slang here and there.




NickVon said:


> two words,
> 
> Google Chrome
> 
> IMO  love it.


You'll understand if I don't find your endorcement of Google Chrome's spell check features convincing?


----------



## STEVETERRY

nmccoart5 said:


> Has Control Booth turned into an English lesson? Tell us what you think!



I think that the single biggest influence on my career of 35 years has been the ability to use the English language well in writing. There is no other more valuable tool!

Therefore, I think we should use Draconian measures, if necessary, to influence our contributors to aspire to great communication in the written word!

My 2 cents...

ST


----------



## djclint

*Re: Control Booth: Tech. Forum or English Class??*


LekoBoy said:


> I think spelling terms and pieces of equipment correctly is kinda important. When I see people write Leco I know they don't know very much.



Maybe this thread should be linked to the, "What is your major," link.

I will say that I see more intelligent grammar here than in other forums. 

If you do not know their, there, they're, you missed out big time. If you do not know how to use apostrophe... I must stop myself here.

All non-Americans are immediately forgiven. Je parle un peu de francais.


----------



## sk8rsdad

*Re: Control Booth: Tech. Forum or English Class??*


djclint said:


> All non-Americans are immediately forgiven. Je parle un peu de francais.



Il y beaucoup des Américains qui ne parlent pas anglais en tant que leur première langue, et bien plus de non-Américains qui font. C'est pourquoi la langue ne s'appelle English et pas l'Américain.


----------



## mstaylor

*Re: Control Booth: Tech. Forum or English Class??*


djclint said:


> Maybe this thread should be linked to the, "What is your major," link.
> 
> I will say that I see more intelligent grammar here than in other forums.
> 
> If you do not know their, there, they're, you missed out big time. If you do not know how to use apostrophe... I must stop myself here.
> 
> All non-Americans are immediately forgiven. Je parle un peu de francais.


I agree about proper grammar and spelling should be correct here more than other boards I'm on, but my feeling is when you post on any board you have the time and tools to make your post as correct as possible. Believe me I am as spelling impaired as anybody but if I'm not sure I check.


----------



## seanandkate

*Re: Control Booth: Tech. Forum or English Class??*


sk8rsdad said:


> Il y beaucoup des Américains qui ne parlent pas anglais en tant que leur première langue, et bien plus de non-Américains qui font. C'est pourquoi la langue ne s'appelle English et pas l'Américain.



Merci beaucoup. Bon dit, sk8rsdad!


----------



## tomthetechie

I think it's important to write well to get your point across but it seems like things go well here I'm going to agree that "l33t" is unacceptable but if the general message makes it to the other members it's no big deal


----------



## derekleffew

tomthetechie, please see this post: http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/lighting/6553-hog-vs-grandma.html#post93622. Thanks.


----------



## CrazyTechie

I think that "l33t" should not be used because I find it harder to read than normal text. I also agree that there should be some policy as to how grammar and spelling should be monitored because when you post something it's essentially your face. Meaning how you type is a reflection of who you are, if you don't care about spelling and grammar that says something about you and if you do care it says something else about you.


----------



## AdamBair

Grammar is about clarity, and clarity is important in communication. When discussing technical issues, clear and precise language is the most effective and efficient way to both ask and answer a question or communicate a new idea.


----------



## banjokeith

There beeing to mean too people whom dont right they're comments good.


----------



## MaddMaxx

Let us promote: Technically correct and grammatically brief. I don't care if I'm reading complete sentences as long as the equipment and process are accurately communicated. Forums are also not the venue for your personal blog. Statement, question, answer, link, pic, short history of solution or problem... Brevity is best. If I'm on a job my brain is already too full and speeding...
MaddMaxx
"Beat entropy...swallow rocks and walk uphill"


----------



## museav

MaddMaxx said:


> I don't care if I'm reading complete sentences as long as the equipment and process are accurately communicated.


An alternative perspective is that if it is not important enough for a person posting to invest the time and effort to do it right, then why should anyone see it as worth investing their own time and effort in responding? Another is that if "good enough" is acceptable for some things then how pervasive is that perspective into everything one does? The general issue in both is looking at it from both sides, how you view it and how it may be viewed by others as well as how it serves you and how it may serve others.


MaddMaxx said:


> Brevity is best. If I'm on a job my brain is already too full and speeding"


Understood, however consider that anything posted in any forum is not read or applied by just one person but potentially by everyone there. This is greatly an educational forum and many times an overly simplified or incomplete post or response can lead to as many problems and misunderstandings as it solves. I agree the verbosity should be avoided but also believe that has to be balanced with providing complete and clear information.


----------



## mstaylor

My spelling is almost as bad as my typing but I know, most of the time, when it is misspelled. I may have to look it up or ask my wife but I certainly try to get it right. My biggest complaint on any forum is no punctuation, no capitalization, and the use of texting/chat abbreviations that I have no clue what they mean. l33t means nothing to me. Somebody said it is hard to read. To me it is worthless because I have no idea what it means. My belief is if you wouldn't send it to your boss or teacher, don't post it on a forum.


----------



## lieperjp

mstaylor said:


> My belief is if you wouldn't send it to your boss or teacher, don't post it on a forum.



You'd be surprised at what has been sent on to teachers, then...


----------



## mstaylor

I had a boss once that I had to proof all his memos, absolutely unreadable. The bad part was I was told I couldn't apply for the job because I lacked a degree so I wasn't qualified.


----------



## RockyPneumonia

When I tell students that I will be docking them for errors in spelling and grammar, I'm usually greeted with cries of, "...But this isn't English class!", as if the purpose of English class were to teach people to use correct English...in English class.


----------



## Kelite

RockyPneumonia said:


> When I tell students that I will be docking them for errors in spelling and grammar, I'm usually greeted with cries of, "...But this isn't English class!", as if the purpose of English class were to teach people to use correct English...in English class.



Very well said, Rocky. 

The claim from math students is quite similar, I'm sure. "Hey, I can't balance my checkbook (or make change at the drive-thru window for that matter), but I got an A on my math test yesterday!!!


----------



## museav

Kelite said:


> The claim from math students is quite similar, I'm sure. "Hey, I can't balance my checkbook (or make change at the drive-thru window for that matter), but I got an A on my math test yesterday!!!


Nothing necessarily new there. 30+ years ago my high school, in cooperation with the local Chamber of Commerce, ran an informal a 'practical skills' test addressing things such as making change and how many bottles of milk to give when someone wants a gallon and all you have is quarts or how many quarters to put in the meter when you get 15 minutes per quarter and want to park for an hour and a quarter. The results were rather disappointing even though we had to take a class a class on some basics like balancing a checkbook in order to graduate. I doubt that a similar test given today would fare any better, especially if you prohibited looking up the answers online or getting help via texting.


----------



## Kelite

museav said:


> I doubt that a similar test given today would fare any better, *especially if you're prohibited looking up the answers online or getting help via texting*.




There ya go!

Welcome to 2010, where a classroom test isn't given to the student but rather given to the student and their NETWORK.


(*steps off apple crate)


----------



## TheLightmaster

*Re: CB: Tech. Form or English Class*


derekleffew said:


> A fair and valid point was raised by nmccoart5. Since I can't add a poll to his thread, I'm merging his comments into this one.
> 
> Whatever the results, this doesn't mean in anyway [sic] that I'm going to stop playing Grammar Cop.


Keep it up!


----------



## SHARYNF

The reality is with English we have an amazing ability to read some pretty weird stuff and actually know what it says 


Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn’t mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be at the rghit pclae. The rset can be a total mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit a porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe. Amzanig huh?


One think that a lot of young folks miss is that all these posts on the internet tend to last for a long long time, so at some point it time some of the stuff might be a bit embarrassing


Sharyn


----------



## lieperjp




----------



## sk8rsdad

*Re: CB: Technical Forum or LATIN Class?*

According to my high school latin teacher, it's _per se_, not _persay_.

_per se_ is latin for "by itself", often used in law to mean "excluding any extraneous factors".

_persay_ doesn't mean anything. The Urban Dictionary defines it as "something you say at the end of a sentence to sound intelligent".


----------



## dvsDave

*Re: CB: Technical Forum or LATIN Class?*

When to use the term i.e.

When to use i.e. in a sentence - The Oatmeal


----------



## xander

*Re: CB: Technical Forum or LATIN Class?*


dvsDave said:


> When to use the term i.e.
> 
> When to use i.e. in a sentence - The Oatmeal


 
I love the Oatmeal's grammar bits...


----------



## lieperjp

I'm reading the book _The Fight for English - How language pundits ate, shot, and left_ by David Crystal for my basic linguistics class and immediately thought of this thread. Derek would like it.

Take all the prescribed rules and throw 'em out the window... that's what I say


----------



## Sony

YouTube - Stephen Fry Kinetic Typography - Language

My basic view on grammar so wonderfully narrated by Stephen Fry


----------



## Pie4Weebl

I think many here will like this alot.

Hyperbole and a Half: The Alot is Better Than You at Everything


----------



## cdub260

Time to bring this thread back into play. I've seen a fair bit of misuse of the following terms lately:

There
They're
Their
Your
You're
Too
To
Two

Come on folks! This is elementary school grammar!


----------



## MarshallPope

Can we please add apostrophe usage? Remember: "apostrophes," not "apostrophe's" unless you are talking about the apostrophe's tail.


----------



## chausman

MarshallPope said:


> Can we please add apostrophe usage? Remember: "apostrophes," not "apostrophe's" unless you are talking about the apostrophe's tail.


 
you're apostrophes tail my apostrophes tale or the one looking for a friends tail, do u think this post will anoy derek! he May need some shok_therapie. 




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## gafftaper

And don't forget: Electrocution means somebody died!


----------



## ruinexplorer

OK, so I didn't feel like reading all the posts again, but I found another post that might help people with some common mistakes. So, sorry if it has been posted before.
10 Words You Need to Stop Misspelling


----------



## mstaylor

Witch and which needs to be added to the list.


----------



## dvsDave

Image from http://jimgodfreydesign.com/20/typographic-sins-poster/


----------



## FACTplayers

Actually, two spaces between sentences is perfectly acceptable; but good post.


----------



## derekleffew

FACTplayers said:


> Actually, two spaces between sentences is perfectly acceptable; ...


Only on a typewriter. Ever notice that this software will automatically truncate blank spaces? Go ahead. Try it! The only way to get more than a single space is to add one or more ___filler characters... and color them black; but they will still be visible to the keen eye.

I've never been able to break myself of the habit of pressing the spacebar twice after a period, colon, or semi-colon, but I first read about it in _The Mac is Not a Typewriter_, which contains many/most of the items listed on the poster above.


----------



## ScottT

FACTplayers said:


> Actually, two spaces between sentences is perfectly acceptable; but good post.


 
It's not, because now we use proportional typesetting (where each character takes up a different amount of space) as opposed to monospaced type (where each character takes up the same amount of space). It was acceptable to put two spaces when using a monospaced typesetting (think typewriter) because it made it made the text easier to read. With computers this isn't necessary.

(I still put two spaces between sentences, even though I know it's wrong!)


----------



## dvsDave

Just saw this on Grammar.net:


----------



## derekleffew

Damn, Gina, bluishorange: Related.


----------



## derekleffew

Another example of, how important is, the comma.


----------



## chausman

Guides to Good Writing Style
1. Its important to use apostrophe's right.

2. It's better not to unnecessarily split an infinitive.

3. Never leave a transitive verb just lay t here without an object.

4. Only Proper Nouns should be capitalized. also a sentence should. begin with a capital and end with a full stop

5. Use hyphens in compound-words, not just in any two-word phrase.

6. In letters compositions reports and things like that we use commas to keep a string of items apart.

7. Watch out for irregular verbs which have creeped into our language.

8. Verbs has to agree with their subjects.

9. Avoid unnecessary redundancy.

10. A writer mustn't shift your point of view.

11. Don't write a run-on sentence you've got to punctuate it.

12. A preposition isn't a good thing to end a sentence with.

13. Avoid clichés like the plague. And the number 13.


----------



## mstaylor

chausman said:


> Guides to Good Writing Style
> 1. Its important to use apostrophe's right.
> 
> 2. It's better not to unnecessarily split an infinitive.
> 
> 3. Never leave a transitive verb just lay t here without an object.
> 
> 4. Only Proper Nouns should be capitalized. also a sentence should. begin with a capital and end with a full stop
> 
> 5. Use hyphens in compound-words, not just in any two-word phrase.
> 
> 6. In letters compositions reports and things like that we use commas to keep a string of items apart.
> 
> 7. Watch out for irregular verbs which have creeped into our language.
> 
> 8. Verbs has to agree with their subjects.
> 
> 9. Avoid unnecessary redundancy.
> 
> 10. A writer mustn't shift your point of view.
> 
> 11. Don't write a run-on sentence you've got to punctuate it.
> 
> 12. A preposition isn't a good thing to end a sentence with.
> 
> 13. Avoid clichés like the plague. And the number 13.


Especially good coming from someone as young as chausman.


----------



## chausman

mstaylor said:


> Especially good coming from someone as young as chausman.


 
I will confess I didn't come up with it, but found it on an old website, I meant to add a link, but lost internet from the school before I got a chance to. We have, how ever, talked about most of these in Honors 9 in the past few days talking about our own essays. 

Nbr 119 Writing Style and Crazy Rules


----------



## derekleffew

From 'Sovereign Citizen' Sues Government Over Grammar | Hatewatch | Southern Poverty Law Center :

> A so-called “sovereign citizen” in the state of Washington, just sentenced to 40 months in prison, has filed suit accusing the government and its agents of using poor grammar and writing at a second-grade level. ... Like many sovereigns who don’t recognize most state and federal laws, he claims the government uses grammar to enslave it citizens.


----------



## shiben

derekleffew said:


> From 'Sovereign Citizen' Sues Government Over Grammar | Hatewatch | Southern Poverty Law Center :



Its always excellent fun while watching Alaska State Troopers or Cops or whatever cop show you watch when the "Sovereign Citizens" come out and try and worm their way out of whatever they have gotten charged with by pulling that. Guess how many times the police let them go?


----------



## Tex

chausman said:


> 12. A preposition isn't a good thing to end a sentence with.



I'm probably a terrible person, but I might lose my teacher card if I didn't point out that this sentence ends with a preposition.


----------



## philhaney

Tex said:


> I'm probably a terrible person, but I might lose my teacher card if I didn't point out that this sentence ends with a preposition.



Ending a sentence with a preposition is something up with which I will not put. -Winston Churchill


----------



## chausman

Tex said:


> I'm probably a terrible person, but I might lose my teacher card if I didn't point out that this sentence ends with a preposition.



Every other line is demonstrating that which I should not do


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Tex

chausman said:


> Every other line is demonstrating that which I should not do
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You're right Chad. I admire you for caring about your writing at such a young age. I didn't mean to come down on you, but you have to admit that the irony was delicious!


----------



## cdub260

Here's yet another pair of words that I've seen misused quite a bit lately:

Passed
Past


----------



## philhaney

cdub260, that's all in your passed.


----------



## derekleffew

I Won't Hire People Who Use Poor Grammar. Here's Why. - Kyle Wiens - Harvard Business Review


----------



## dvsDave

Thought I should post this here.


----------



## chausman

Whenever I run across these, I always think I should post them here... then I forget.


----------



## mstaylor

My philosophy has always been that if you are in a forum you have the time to use the correct word and punctuation. I lost a promotion at work because I didn't have a degree. The guy that got the job knew nothing of the business and his emails/memos were unreadable. He had horrible grammar, spelling and correct usage of the problem words. They're, their, there, to,two,too, passed,past and others. 
My wife is the secretary for the dept head and has to collect portions of reports from multiple people. She has decided she is going to build a template and dare anybody to change it.


----------



## dvsDave

I'm just gonna leave this here:


----------



## Jay Ashworth

This is the sort of arrant pedantry up with which I will not put!

Sent from my SPH-L720


----------



## Eboy87

Jay Ashworth said:


> This is the sort of arrant pedantry up with which I will not put!
> 
> Sent from my SPH-L720




That makes me think of Joe Pesci's character in the movie _With Honors_ when he sits in on the Harvard lecture.

"At Harvard we don't end sentences in prepositions."


----------



## cmckeeman

I am of the opinion that as long as we know what one means then their language has done its job


----------



## cdub260

Half the time I don't even know what I mean when I say something.


----------



## Les

My belief is that when you regularly put effort in to what you write, it will become more and more effortless when it actually matters. It really simplifies things - I never have to "switch" between writing styles dependent on who I'm talking to.

I personally do not want my posts on this (or any other forum) to make me appear lazy, uneducated, or complacent. 

"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit."


----------



## dvsDave

It's the best sort of trolling.


----------



## JChenault

Of course DvsDave is an xkcd fan.


----------



## dvsDave




----------



## derekleffew

Happy "National Grammar Day" to You and Your's!


----------



## ruinexplorer

Might have an E on his thumb, but this ends up being the wrong message.


----------



## ScottT

Just a reminder:


----------



## Dionysus

ScottT said:


> Just a reminder:View attachment 12187


Yes indeed, wonderful infographic. I HATE IT when I realize that auto correct has changed they're to their or such, and yes it happens.


----------



## Stevens R. Miller

As a noob, I will welcome corrections when I make mistakes in the spelling of industry-specific terms ("Leco" vs. "Leko," for example), or misuse a term I otherwise spell correctly (i.e., "Get me some tape so I can gaffer that cable.") Learning to speak the language of a profession that has its own argot, jargon, and/or traditions is, I feel, an appropriate show of respect, and an important aspect of mastering a new set of skills. As a computer programmer, I wouldn't hesitate to correct a beginner who said something like, "Would you look at my bug and see if you can find the source for me?" That person is simply misusing well defined words, and should--if not will--be glad to have a polite correction given to them.

On the other hand...


Tex said:


> I'm probably a terrible person, but I might lose my teacher card if I didn't point out that this sentence ends with a preposition.



As a lawyer, I wouldn't hesitate to end a sentence with a preposition. In the context of a specialized site like this one (which I am already finding to be of immense value to a guy like me), I'd think it was kind of distracting for anyone to upbraid me on such a point. (And that particular issue is actually not as cut-and-dried as some might think .)

Also, as a moderator at another site, I've learned to make allowances for the fact that the Web is a global village. Even those of us want to be precise might need some slack when English is not our first language.

All that said, I agree with those who subscribe to the notion that, if you can't communicate clearly, it doesn't much matter what you know. If you're a scientist who has made a great discovery (or is writing a grant application), mastery of the language in which you report yourself is going to be essential if you want anyone else to understand what you've done.


----------

