# The Cheap LED Round-Up



## IanJ (Mar 28, 2011)

This is a summary I just wrote for my journal, but I figured CB folks would also find my observations useful. My journal is read by folks who have no clue about theatrical matters, so please pardon any too-basic explanations. Feel free to ask follow-up questions here, I'll answer them as best I can.

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As some of you may know, I'm technical director at Annex Theatre, a small fringe theater in Seattle. We have an opportunity to upgrade some of our equipment, and after our experience with LED instruments as part of Her Mother Was Imagination last year, I was excited to get some LEDs in. 

I contacted PNTA, our local theater supply house, and arranged the loan of some instruments to evaluate in our space. It's all fine and good to look at specs on paper, but there's nothing like actually seeing the output in your own space. 

For this evaluation, we ended up with five different LED instruments in the sub-$600 price range. (The rented LEDs from HMWI were about $1500 each, and there are LED instruments extending into many thousands of dollars each, so under $600 is definitely on the low end of things.) We had two from Omni Sistem: a PAR56 and a PAR64. We had three from Elation: an Opti RGB, an Opti Tri Par, and an ELED Par RGB Zoom. 
It will help to understand the theater we work in, as it very tightly constrains what we want in a lighting instrument. The mainstage space is about 75 feet long, and about 25 feet wide. The back 40 feet (or so) make up the audience seating and the booth. The stage is about 25 by 25 feet square, with about a 6 foot backstage area that's given over to tool and fastener storage, with a comparatively narrow walkway. Our ceiling (this is the killer) is only about 9 feet from the stage surface to the grid pipes. The stage is slightly raised, perhaps 8 inches off the floor. 

We only have about 100A for the whole theater, mainstage, lounge, greenroom, office and all. The stage's lighting circuits are on a 50A breaker. This puts a very real cap on our ability to light up the stage. We are using 7 SmartBar dimmer bars, for 28 channels, and part of an ancient EDI dimmer pack for another 5 channels. We are _very_ excited about anything we can do that will make light without taking up power or dimmer channels. Enter LEDs. 

The first LED instruments we tested were the two from Omni. The PAR56 is the size of a 6" fresnel, more or less, has a nominal 24W power output, and costs about $200. The PAR64 is longer, about the size of an Altman 6x9, putting out a nominal 36W, and costing about $250. Both use 10mm LEDs instead of the much higher-output Cree or Luxeon emitters. Both have individual red, green and blue LEDs (the only instrument to use all-in-one RGB emitters is the Elation Opti Tri). 

The Omnis, from first impression onward, exuded a cheap, made-in-China feel. The boxes were printed in that gaudy, low-effort graphical style which seems to exemplify cheap Chinese construction. (I should emphasize that I have nothing against things that are made in China, it's the cheap part I'm complaining about.) Upon pulling the instruments out of their boxes, they are very light, and feel like it would only take the smallest drop to bend or dent the housing. They were plainly not suitable instruments for a working theater, but we put them up anyway to take a look. 

The PAR64, upon being powered, immediately started whirring -- a surprisingly loud fan operated at all times. The PAR56 was silent. There wasn't a lot of difference between their outputs, with the color casts being noticeably different with all the sliders at 100. However, we're not interested in LEDs for white light (something they universally suck at until you add white and/or amber LEDs, which immediately tacks $1000 onto the price, at the moment). They both provided good saturated color. The beam angle was relatively narrow for our uses, maybe 35 degrees. Beam shape was erratic, as you would expect from a mass of 10mm LEDs which are aimed based on how their leads were bent during installation. There wasn't a substantial difference between the beams in terms of light intensity. Both instruments used such a slow PWM speed to produce a dimming effect that at low levels, they were more like strobe lights than anything else, producing visible and distracting stop-motion effects on any motion of any speed. 

The DMX addresses of these two instruments are set by DIP switches. The bit values are helpfully printed next to (or at least in the proximity of) the switches. We actually received three instruments (two 56s and one 64) to demo, and were only able to put two up because one of the 56 yokes wouldn't take a C-clamp bolt, the hole being about 1/32" too small. Both models used 3-pin DMX cables. I ripped out the screws on one of the DMX out ports by plugging in the cable, pushing the connector into the body of the instrument. The ports were helpfully labelled DMX IN and DMX OUT, although on at least one of the instruments, the labels were swapped around, so that the IN port was labelled OUT and vice versa. 

For our purposes, the Omnis were clearly insufficient. The beam angle was too narrow and too irregular, the construction _far_ too light, and the always-on fan of the PAR64 was unacceptable. The quality control was obviously quite irregular as well. I wouldn't recommend these to anyone -- save your money and wait until they get cheaper, or get fewer of a better quality instrument. 

The Elations were more our speed, and it was with real anticipation that I set them up. One of the Elations weighed more than all three Omnis combined. Each instrument was made with a heavy cast aluminum body (including an inbuilt safety cable anchor point on at least two of them), and was clearly much higher quality. They look similar to a Source4 Par except for the lens, with similarly finned bodies. Interestingly the yokes on each instrument were different -- the Opti RGB and Opti Tri had fold-out secondary yokes (presumably for floor-standing installation), and the ELED Zoom had a more standard yoke. The Opti RGB had a very shallow yoke, while the other two had unnecessarily tall yokes. 

The Opti RGB, at about $300, is the low end of these three instruments. Its DMX channel is set by DIP switch (with no helpful labels showing bit values), with the 10th switch apparently acting as a DMX enable. With switch 10 off, the other 9 set DMX channel. With switch 10 on, the other nine are used to set the instrument into different modes. The manuals of all three instruments were definite low-points: poorly translated, and too vague, with wordy descriptions where succinct diagrams or tables would have been far more welcome. 

The Opti RGB claims to have a 25° beam, which sounds about right. It was very tight, with a tiny clustered hotspot, and a very wide, nearly 180° spill that was a minute fraction of the hotspot's intensity, but was also clearly not just "black." The beam pattern was somewhat lumpy and uneven, like the Omnis. In our space, it lost out on beam size alone -- it would never make a good wash, and isn't really a good choice for a spot. Construction quality was fine. The LEDs were clearly using off-the-shelf molded glass or plastic lenses. It used 3-pin DMX connectors. It had fingers for holding a gel frame (something the Omnis lacked), and even came with a standard-size 6" fresnel type gel frame in the box. 

The ELED Zoom is a very interesting instrument, and I was prepared to have it be my favorite. It includes the ability to control a 10°-60° beam width via DMX, along with the standard red, green, blue, color macros, strobe speed, and master dimmer. It is capable of defining a surprising number of channels. I have forgotten exactly how many (it's in the manual, which is available from the Elation site), but it ranged from something like 1 to 7 DMX channels, taking you from color macros (pre-defined colors depending on DMX level, which were clearly called out in the manual) only, to full control. It's also the most powerful of all the instruments we demoed, at a nominal 72 watts of LED power. 

The ELED's various modes are set up via four buttons on the back of the instrument, and a four-digit LED display. The modes are entirely incomprehensible without the manual, and honestly are somewhat incomprehensible even _with_ the manual. However, setting it up for DMX was easily accomplished, and it was delightful to see the DMX channel spelled out in decimal numbers rather than having to translate decimal to binary for DIP switches. Setting the address is accomplished by pressing an UP or DOWN button, and they scroll very quickly when held down -- a good thing, as with 7 channels per instrument, the last LED in the chain is going to be a goodly distance from the first one in channel count. 

The beam pattern of the ELED Zoom was a bit surprising. I'm used to LEDs having a hotspot which then feathers more or less smoothly to a wide spill. This instrument had a very distinct, hard edge to its beam, much more like a focused ellipsoidal than a fresnel. There was some spill about 180° from the instrument, apparently leaking out to the side of the emitters, but the area between that spill and the beam edge was pretty dark. As the beam zoomed out to its widest, it gained a very noticeable bright ring around the beam, with smooth, even coverage through the middle of the beam. No hotspot to speak of. 
The zoom feature is fun to play with. It takes a bit over a second to go from one extreme to the other (although I didn't time it, that's just an impression). The zoom is effected by moving the emitters inside the body of the instrument -- back and forth, closer and further from the lens board, which is fixed. 

I found myself wishing for a moving mirror as part of the instrument. Having zoom by itself is not actually much of a selling point, at least for what we do. Once the novelty of the zoom feature wore off, the instrument's failings (for our purposes, I must stress) were clear: hard beam edge, gee-whiz but useless zoom feature, and a $200 premium over the one we really liked. 

That would be the Opti Tri Par. This is clearly the newest design among all that we tried, and I encourage Elation to keep going in this vein. Among the features that set it apart from the others: 


 RGB in _each_ emitter, rather than a smattering of red LED, a smattering of green, and a smattering of blue
 Detachable power cable, using a locking IEC cord (IEC cords are the ones you have a big pile of in the closet if you own computers)
 The greatest variety of channel modes
 A mode to shut off the LED display on back after 10 seconds, so you don't have a zillion glowing red numbers in your grid
 I _really_ like the Opti Tri Par, although the unit we had was possessed of one or two very significant defects: although it seemed to speak DMX, it did something evil to the signal, so that all the dimmers on that DMX chain (ie, all the dimmers in the space) shut down in confusion. The LED display shut-off, which was supposed to come back when you pressed a button, didn't come back, and the instrument required a power-cycle to bring the display back. The unit we had also came in a box marked "Factory Renewed," so I don't expect these are intentional features of the instrument. It is a bit disturbing that we should have had this problem in the first place -- I really don't want to have any cause to explore Elation's warranty if at all possible. 

I was able to use one of the stand-alone modes to view the beam, and we were very pleased with the pattern. It has a very wide hotspot, feathering beautifully to nothing, like an ideal fresnel. The beam is perhaps 50°-60°. Perfect for washes in our small space. 
An interesting and unexpectedly nice side-effect of each emitter being an RGB LED was that shadows didn't have the half-tone fringing effect I've come to expect from LEDs -- they weren't sharp shadows, but they also didn't include different colors in the fade-off into shadow. When you have distinct emitters of each color, shadows look weirdly technicolor or half-toned, because a given emitter is shadowed, while the one next to it isn't, resulting in a multicolored fringe around shadows. 

We tried putting a barndoor on the Opti Tri Par, and were underwhelmed with the result. Possibly it would work better with a snoot to put the barndoor edges further out, but controlling spill isn't a strong suit of LED instruments, due to the wide emitting surface. 

The Tri had a bewildering array of modes, most of which aren't useful to a theater. The manual was just as useless as the other Elations. Fortunately, setting it into DMX mode is clear enough, and the different channel modes are understandable from the manual. Interestingly, the Opti Tri Par we demoed had a 5-pin DMX connector, and I'm hopeful that this is an optional extra. We'd much rather use 3-pin connectors, so we can hook these instruments up with microphone cable instead of the comparatively expensive dedicated DMX cable. 

It's very nice to have settled on an instrument that will be useful, and doesn't break the bank. I'm disappointed at the ELED Zoom, but probably only because I had unreasonable expectations for it. I'm surprised at the significant difference between the $300 Opti RGB and the $400 Opti Tri Par -- the Tri is clearly a newer generation, and offers a huge improvement in quality for a fairly small difference in price. (Correction: the Opti Tri Par is actually $500 -- not so surprised at the difference in tech now that I see the real prices.) The Tri is even better than the $1500 instruments we rented last summer in some significant ways, and for less than a third the price. 

Note that the prices I've quoted are from PNTA, and are approximate. I'm sure you can find these instruments for cheaper online, but I encourage you to shop with your local theatrical supply store -- if you don't shop there, it may not be there next time you really need it.


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## derekleffew (Mar 28, 2011)

IanJ said:


> ... Interestingly, the Opti Tri Par we demoed had a 5-pin DMX connector, and I'm hopeful that this is an optional extra. We'd much rather use 3-pin connectors, so we can hook these instruments up with microphone cable instead of the comparatively expensive dedicated DMX cable. ...


I hope you're wearing your asbestos underwear; some CB members might take exception with that practice.
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My take on LED fixtures for the stage: treat them as disposable. Tomorrow is always going to bring a brighter cheaper faster better product. So buy the cheapest one that will barely meet your needs now. If/when it breaks, replace it with something better.
*OR,*
Buy the Selador/ColorKinetics/ChromaQ/VLX, be completely satisfied now, and less satisfied over the next ten years when you can't afford to buy the better stuff that's come to market.


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## soundlight (Mar 28, 2011)

IanJ said:


> Interestingly, the Opti Tri Par we demoed had a 5-pin DMX connector, and I'm hopeful that this is an optional extra. We'd much rather use 3-pin connectors, so we can hook these instruments up with microphone cable instead of the comparatively expensive dedicated DMX cable.



5-pin data is the only option for connectors on this fixture. Buy a bulk spool of Accu Cable "3-pin" DMX cable (the ADJ/Elation brand) and solder your own 5-pin connectors on and only hook up 3 of the pins. If you buy the Accu Cable connectors as well, the connectors will probably only be about $5 for a pair (male/female). They ain't Neutriks, but they'll do fine; they do have the screw-off backshells that make all the difference in the world when troubleshooting cable.

Also, you'll have the right impedance cable, which in a quirky system like yours can really make all the difference. True, in many situations you won't notice a difference. But sometimes it is actually an issue.

I've seen the Opti Tri Pars as well and they are nice fixtures for the money. The stippled lenses really make the beam angle nice and wide and the edges fairly soft. This will happen with absolutely any LED in this price range, but I cringed when I put a 10-count fade on it and watched the last two seconds of the fade take place in 4 visible steps. But that'll happen with almost any fixture under $2000 from what I've seen, and even some over that pricepoint.


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## PeteEngel (Mar 28, 2011)

derekleffew said:


> I hope you're wearing your asbestos underwear; some CB members might take exception with that practice.
> -----
> My take on LED fixtures for the stage: treat them as disposable. Tomorrow is always going to bring a brighter cheaper faster better product. So buy the cheapest one that will barely meet your needs now. If/when it breaks, replace it with something better.
> *OR,*
> Buy the Selador/ColorKinetics/ChromaQ/VLX, be completely satisfied now, and less satisfied over the next ten years when you can't afford to buy the better stuff that's come to market.


 
While that sounds pat (treat as disposable), the reality is that people will use temporary fixtures long past any reasonable expected life. We all know long term budget priorities have a tendency to shift, regardless of best intentions. My thoughts are that one should purchase fixtures that are UPGRADEABLE as technology advances. Solid state technology advances so fast that spending money on a fixture you can't upgrade is like throwing money away. There is no reason someone can't be satisfied now AND in the future with the same fixture.


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## IanJ (Mar 28, 2011)

PeteEngel said:


> While that sounds pat (treat as disposable), the reality is that people will use temporary fixtures long past any reasonable expected life. We all know long term budget priorities have a tendency to shift, regardless of best intentions. My thoughts are that one should purchase fixtures that are UPGRADEABLE as technology advances. Solid state technology advances so fast that spending money on a fixture you can't upgrade is like throwing money away. There is no reason someone can't be satisfied now AND in the future with the same fixture.


 
Certainly for us, this is not a disposable purchase. My managing director looked askance at me when I said this was a ten-year investment as far as I was concerned. I had to point to one of the Source4s that was hanging in the grid -- I don't know when we got it, but it predates me, and I had first contact with Annex in 2000. I also pointed to the Altman 6x9 hanging next to it, and explained to him that it was probably manufactured in the 60s or 70s.

The problem with any theater is budget, and that's especially true with fringe theater. Every dollar has to count. Good thoughts on upgradeability, Pete, although I don't know if we can afford to apply them. And for whatever it's worth, just because there's something better out there, that doesn't invalidate the value of the older model you already own, and which continues to do its job. Unlike computers, lighting instruments aren't asked to run progressively more complex software, they just have to throw photons.

FWIW, I just confirmed with a relatively unhappy/surly-sounding tech at Elation that the Opti Tri Par only comes with 5-pin connectors (I didn't doubt you soundlight, but the guy at PNTA was surprised too, so I thought I'd check with the source) and (no shock) is not upgradeable in any way.


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## mstaylor (Mar 28, 2011)

Comparing the purchase of low to middle road LEDs to a tried and true technology is not a fair comparison. LEDs are in the development stage where the technology and pricing will change constantly during that period. How long that period is going to be, who knows, that is why assuming that a low end light will be viable in ten years.


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## IanJ (Mar 28, 2011)

mstaylor said:


> Comparing the purchase of low to middle road LEDs to a tried and true technology is not a fair comparison.



The point wasn't that whatever LED will last a long time, it was more that, being a low-budget theater, we're going to milk it as long as we can. 

We still have a small fleet of Berkey Colortrans that we keep around "just in case," and they still get pulled out with alarming frequency. If we have LEDs lying around, they're going to be utilized until they die, because we are constitutionally incapable of throwing anything away as long as it might still be useful (good trick when you have almost no storage space, but that's a different issue).

To my mind, the very pace of solid-state lighting technology is what makes buying low-end instruments worthwhile for us. Yes, there are definitely better instruments out there, and yes, we could certainly blow more money or wait for better tech to come along (as it inevitably will), but one of the areas where LEDs and computers are similar is finding that sweet spot in the line-up. You know whatever you get is going to be hopelessly outdated in a few years, so you get the most bang for the buck without treading into the rareified air above the priceerformance ratio peak, unless you honestly do have need of higher performance, and the cash to blow on it. And as I said before, the advantage lighting instruments have over computers is that putting light on stage doesn't get more computationally intensive with time.


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## JD (Mar 28, 2011)

Regarding side spill, the honeycomb baffles are more practical with the LEDs than the snoots or barn doors. Because there are multiple small sources, the proximity of the baffle becomes important as the older "classic" LEDs scatter light to the sides. 

As for Mic cable, the echos caused by impedance jumps may be some of what is dirtying up the DMX. With the dimmers, you have fewer connections, but with LEDs you have jumps and echos at each fixture. Go with real DMX cable, even if you stay with the 3 pin connectors. Also, because of the number of connections, make sure you terminate!


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## IanJ (Mar 28, 2011)

JD said:


> Go with real DMX cable, even if you stay with the 3 pin connectors. Also, because of the number of connections, make sure you terminate!



Thanks John, you guys are convincing me on the DMX cable -- I didn't realize DMX had a different impedance than mic cable. We have enough problems with RFI in our space (several major FM transmission towers less than a mile away), I don't want to add more noise to the signal. I was already planning to terminate, based on our experience with the rented LEDs (which used proper DMX cables without termination, and still had the occasional flicker).


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## mstaylor (Mar 28, 2011)

If you get instruments with 5 pin only, you could buy 120 ohm three wire and put 5 pin XLRs on it. The terminators can be built DIY.


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## JD (Mar 28, 2011)

When using 3 or 5 pin connectors, the pins in use are 1,2, and 3. (4 & 5 are not used on the 5 pin, although some find other uses, and they are considered "part" of the format.) Your data pins are 2 & 3 so it you make a terminator, you want to put the resistor between those pins. If you do happen to use 4 & 5 as a second data line, then a second resistor would be put between them. 

Another problem with using MIC cables is that _some_ have pin 1 bridged to the shell of the connector. This can cause all sorts of problems when used in the DMX environment.


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## mstaylor (Mar 28, 2011)

I work with a company regularly that insists on using mic cables and not terminate, then want me to figure out why it doesn't work. :shock:


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## eloader (Mar 30, 2011)

IanJ said:


> This is a summary I just wrote for my journal, but I figured CB folks would also find my observations useful. My journal is read by folks who have no clue about theatrical matters, so please pardon any too-basic explanations. Feel free to ask follow-up questions here, I'll answer them as best I can.
> 
> ------
> 
> ...


 
Thanks for the feedback from your test...yes the Opti Tri Par is a great product and solution for theater. 

Regarding the display not coming back on and having to re-boot power - all you need to do is hold down the MENU button for 5 seconds and the display will come back on. We put this feature in because a lot of stage hands were channing the LED menu buttons by accident in moving the fixture around during operation. 

Thank you for your support and you should look out for our new Opti Quad Par fixture coming this summer...

Eric Loader
Director of Sales
Elation Professional


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## IanJ (Mar 30, 2011)

eloader said:


> Thanks for the feedback from your test...yes the Opti Tri Par is a great product and solution for theater.
> 
> Regarding the display not coming back on and having to re-boot power - all you need to do is hold down the MENU button for 5 seconds and the display will come back on. We put this feature in because a lot of stage hands were channing the LED menu buttons by accident in moving the fixture around during operation.


 
Ah, thanks for clarifying that matter, Eric! We will certainly use the display power-off feature on the Opti Tri Pars we just ordered, so I'm glad to know how it's supposed to work.

Since you're here, I'd love to ask: what chance you'll be improving your instruction manuals? Something I'd love to see (and will probably make for myself) is a quick-reference sheet that shows the different modes' display codes and a brief description of what they do. I'm impressed at what you're doing for the price. More of the Tri style instruments are more than welcome, the quality of light when each emitter is an RGB source is a vast improvement over the discrete red green and blue emitters.


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## FMEng (Mar 31, 2011)

IanJ said:


> Thanks John, you guys are convincing me on the DMX cable -- I didn't realize DMX had a different impedance than mic cable. We have enough problems with RFI in our space (several major FM transmission towers less than a mile away), I don't want to add more noise to the signal. I was already planning to terminate, based on our experience with the rented LEDs (which used proper DMX cables without termination, and still had the occasional flicker).



Thanks for the in depth narrative on these instruments. Very well done.

Nearby is one, 100,000 Watt FM station, KUOW, on the KCTS TV 9 tower. The other towers belong to KZJO TV 22 (really ch 25), and KSTW TV 11. I'm sure there is enough RF in the neighborhood to make life difficult on occasion.


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## IanJ (Mar 31, 2011)

Oh, and I had one mistake in my original write-up (which I'll try to edit above, but I wanted to point it out for those who've already read it): the price PNTA gave me for the Opti Tri Par was not $400 as stated, but $500. I misremembered it (it was actually $499), or at least I really _wanted _them to be $400! 

We placed our order today, and we've got 5 Tri Pars on the way. I'm excited to see them in practice, in a week or two!


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## eloader (Mar 31, 2011)

IanJ said:


> Ah, thanks for clarifying that matter, Eric! We will certainly use the display power-off feature on the Opti Tri Pars we just ordered, so I'm glad to know how it's supposed to work.
> 
> Since you're here, I'd love to ask: what chance you'll be improving your instruction manuals? Something I'd love to see (and will probably make for myself) is a quick-reference sheet that shows the different modes' display codes and a brief description of what they do. I'm impressed at what you're doing for the price. More of the Tri style instruments are more than welcome, the quality of light when each emitter is an RGB source is a vast improvement over the discrete red green and blue emitters.


 
Thanks for that and it is something we are working to improve on. We are looking to hire a good technical writer...if you know anyone! For sure in the future we hope to improve on this and yes a quick start for the modes is a great idea. I will pass it along.

Best Regards,

Eric Loader
Director of Sales
Elation Profesional

PS - send some photos once you get them installed on site and if you have any issues feel free to contact me directly at eric (at) elationlighting (dot) com


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## domiii (May 11, 2011)

IanJ said:


> We placed our order today, and we've got 5 Tri Pars on the way. I'm excited to see them in practice, in a week or two!


 

Please please please get back to us when you start using the LED pars.

We have the same height problem in our 99 seat community theatre, nine feet to the ceiling over the stage and an eight foot proscenium opening. Most LED fixtures have too narrow a beam and are too expensive.

We want to use them for color washes.

Thanks,


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## scrogers (May 30, 2011)

Hey all, thanks for a great thread! I've been a lurker here on CB for a long time but am now also looking for a little advise on this same topic.

First, I'm assuming that people have liked the Elation Opti Tri? Has anyone here tried their new Opti Quad as mentioned by eloader? We're looking at spending some money on new instruments and are under a lot of pressure to go LED (rather than say another bank of scrollers). It looks like we're going to be upgrading to an Ion this summer and it all just makes sense. I was at USITT this past spring and saw some amazing LED's in action but am really interested in starting with some simple pars (LED movers down the line). 

We've got a proscenium that's 32' wide and 16' tall and we run our trim heights between 17-20ft off the stage floor. We currently use (and like) a lot of S4 Pars (575w) and some older 6in fresnels for our washes (among lots of other things). I'm liking the sound of the Opti Quad (I'd really like the 4th "white" color), but can't find really any hands on reviews or comments. There is a lot of talk about low trims here, but would the Quad (or maybe the tri) be able to drive from a height of ~18ft? Any other suggestions in this sorta "sub $1k" price range? I know what I can get out of scrollers, and their cost is nice, but I think we'd like to think toward the future, especially with an Ion coming. 

Thanks for any help/thoughts/comments!


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## LXPlot (May 31, 2011)

I haven't actually used the Quads, but I do have some decent experience using the Opti RGBs, and I'll say a few things with the hope that they also apply to the more expensive units.

First, these don't really seem to be theatre lights. They have crappy photometrics, especially for a unit which is apparently a 10 degree beam angle. Yeah, you read correctly. The quad pars seem to be designed to function as spotlights. They have that wonderful 10 degree beam angle that means you need to be rather far from them to start making a decent sized pool of light, but with only 497 lux total at 10', you can't be very far from them at all. Being LEDs, I'm going to assume that the light drops off quicker than normal, but that's simply speculation. 

Elation claims that they have "smooth dimming control", I'm not sure whether this is true, but I do know that the Opti RGBs have a decent curve for the price, so I'm going to assume that it isn't to bad. I would demo one just to make sure. 

It has a strobe function, and a lot of stand-alone programs that make it seem more like a DJ light than a theatre light.

Now, I'm going to direct you to the back of the fixture. As you can see, it can take either 3-pin or 5-pin cable. This is a nice step up from the Opti RGBs, and definitely a move in the right direction. It has an LCD screen for programming, unlike the one I've worked with, but it locks about the same as a clock radio. Even still, it beats fumbling around in the dark with a screwdriver trying to work a dipswitch or some other physical programming surface. Finally, you may notice a little thing marked fuse. Believe it or not, these things blow fairly often. This isn't to bad an issue, as the price of the fuses seems to be S&H, but plan on needing to keep a few around.

Finally, this fixture is RGBW, or so a little sticker on the web page will tell you. This doesn't mean that it's good, but it does mean that it likely does white and subtle colors better than most LEDs do today. It has a little sticker certified that it's flicker free and qualified for film and TV (whatever that implies), and another one stating that it has "Built-in programs." 

Price tag seems to hover around 800USD. Is it worth it? Well, it seems decent other than the photometrics (is this serious, am I missing something?) I wouldn't count it out, but definitely do some scrutinizing demos on it before you purchase.


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## scrogers (May 31, 2011)

LXPlot said:


> I haven't actually used the Quads, but I do have some decent experience using the Opti RGBs, and I'll say a few things with the hope that they also apply to the more expensive units.
> 
> ....


 
Thanks for the reply. Yeah, I've been trying to pull photometric data on various LED pars etc all morning. I'm now beginning to wonder of going the "non-cheap" route with some ETC Desire D60's would yield better results, especially in our space. They are roughly twice as expensive as the Elations (Quad), but that have SO much more beef in terms of lux. Plus they come standard with a 17 degree angle with tons of secondary lens options. I too worry about the 10 degree angle, especially since their data basically stops around 10ft, I'd be hanging these and throwing way more than 10ft. I could frost/diffuse them to help spread the light, but then I'm just going to lose more lux.

Basically, if it takes two (or more) "cheap" LED pars to sorta make what one "expensive" one can do, I feel like I should just go with the more expensive unit and build up the inventory at half the rate, but with better lights(?). Still looking at everything, but I'm starting to think that the Opti's, while nice in price, just may not be enough for what I'm looking to do. 

Thanks again and if anyone has any experience with the ETC Desire (especially the D60's) I'd love to hear it.


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## derekleffew (May 31, 2011)

scrogers said:


> ...Thanks again and if anyone has any experience with the ETC Desire (especially the D60's) I'd love to hear it.


I attended a demo of the Desire line and was reasonably impressed. I believe they said the D60 wouldn't be available until this summer. One thing I like about the D40 is that it can take all the standard 7.5" accessories (top hat, barn door, colorframe, etc.). The D60 will be a non-standard size. One thing I don't like is too many options: D40 Vivid, Lustr+, Ice, Fire, Studio HD, Studio Daylight, Studio Tungsten; and TWELVE lenses (many of which can be combined); from which to choose.


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## shiben (May 31, 2011)

Do the Desires have a nice PAR-shaped beam? Are they bright enough to replace some PAR EA 575Ws? Are they cheap enough to make it worth it?


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## sk8rsdad (May 31, 2011)

Read the literature. 

Desires have alternate lensing to give oval or round beams with various beam angles. _Bright enough_ depends on what you are trying to do and the fixture with which you are trying to do it. If you want white light out of a Vivid then an EA is likely going to win in a shootout. If you want saturated colour out of a Vivid then they'd be much brighter than a gelled PAR EA.


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## scrogers (May 31, 2011)

derekleffew said:


> I attended a demo of the Desire line and was reasonably impressed. I believe they said the D60 wouldn't be available until this summer. One thing I like about the D40 is that it can take all the standard 7.5" accessories (top hat, barn door, colorframe, etc.). The D60 will be a non-standard size. One thing I don't like is too many options: D40 Vivid, Lustr+, Ice, Fire, Studio HD, Studio Daylight, Studio Tungsten; and TWELVE lenses (many of which can be combined); from which to choose.


 
Hmm. I hadn't thought about the accessories. I think it'll be ok though, the D60's use 10.5in. I just talked to my supplier who says ETC is claiming they'll ship in July. I agree that the options seem a little daunting, but after reading through all the documentation, I think we'd be looking at a D60 Vivid. We want them for serious color washes (again, in a theatre setting, not club). I worry the Elations, while nicer price points, aren't going to give us what we really want.


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## shiben (May 31, 2011)

sk8rsdad said:


> Read the literature.
> 
> Desires have alternate lensing to give oval or round beams with various beam angles. _Bright enough_ depends on what you are trying to do and the fixture with which you are trying to do it. If you want white light out of a Vivid then an EA is likely going to win in a shootout. If you want saturated colour out of a Vivid then they'd be much brighter than a gelled PAR EA.


 
I guess it wasnt so much a I can find this in the liturature question so much as a has anyone seen these in action and do they do what you want them to sort of question. I like the idea for our theatre, but our cheap throw-away LED cans do a decent job at some things... Basically wondering if people have had experience with them and like them?


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## stagemanager1 (May 31, 2011)

I have used four different Elation lights recently. I went with them based partially on posts from CB. And $$. I used Opti Tri Pars, Eled Par 56, Pro Par 56, and Pro Par CWWW. In both cases I had a short throw - about 8-15'.

Here is my take: Into the first room I put the Pro Par lights. I found that they are very tightly focused - so the stage wash is a bit spotty. I have wished for a wider beam, especially in a short throw range. It seems more like a club light.

Into the next room I put the Eleds and the Opti Tri Pars. The Eleds have a little wider beam, and offer white/amber color mixing (so do the Pro Par CWWW). They have a wider, smoother beam than the Pro Par white lights. The Opti Tri Par is a step or two up from all of the others. I love the color saturation of the tri-color LEDs, and the beam width is better for close lighting. I still wish it had a wider beam, but it works very well in my application. The Tri Pars use a lens that provides the beam spread - and I wish that it was changeable. I have seen other lights with lens options - but this one does not. Still - I would use it in theatre. I even like the white that it mixes - possibly better than the white that I get from the Eled.

If your throw is 15'-20' - I think you will be happy with the Tri Par.

Do note the lights have fans that can be heard, but the sound from them is very low.


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## dj41354 (May 31, 2011)

These fixtures are finally available:
http://skinnyhippo.net/blacktank/wp-content/support/Brickblaster_PRO_Data_Sheet_RGBW.pdf

They're intended to fill the void, between the low end and high end theatrical fixtures, you're talking about.

Full disclosure... I helped develop this fixture... but based on this thread, it seemed like you'd want to know about these.
Doug.


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## derekleffew (May 31, 2011)

dj41354 said:


> These fixtures are finally available:
> http://skinnyhippo.net/blacktank/wp-content/support/Brickblaster_PRO_Data_Sheet_RGBW.pdf ...


Probably not going to replace an S4-PAR, but a seemingly nice fixture nonetheless. 

MSRP, dj41354? 

Without actually seeing the unit--PROs: Listed, by NRTL, 5-pin XLR, RGBW, various lenses available, fanless, size; CONs: no power pass-thru, no track record.


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## church (Jun 1, 2011)

I purchased six RGBW wash fixtures from MS Lighting and shipped them over for $245 each including shipping. They have forty eight 3W LEDs in a rectangular heavy aluminium housing. They can run in 7 channel or 4 channel mode, there is a control panel with digital LCD display on the rear. Each fixture has pass through mains power and DMX. the following link shows the basic fixture but they can manufacture them with your own complement of LEDs - which is what I did.

LED Wall Washer-LED Light - Ms stage Lighting of chinese factory

I purchased these fixtures to provide a floor mounted wall wash behind a choir. The choir performs in various locations normally church halls and gymnasiums and has a system of portable risers that are 28 feet wide. The six fixtures sit theree feet from the wall on the floor behind the risers and do a great job of washing the wall. You can mix a good range of colours but you really need amber LEDs to increase the colour pallete. the dimming curve is okay with a step at settings below 20. You can do strobes and colour chasees in 7 channel mode.

There is no fan the heat disipation is handled by the heavy aluminium construction, they weigh 7lbs each, are 30in by 5in by 6 in. Issues so far are a broken DMX cable and connector shell. The DMX connectors have a screw on plastic shell which does not enjoy being stepped on.

there are some niggles with them but for the money spent they have a lot of punch, provide an even wall wash and have survived six months of use being hired out on a weekly basis. The choirs and other customers love the light they get from them and come back to hire them again - this is the real test for me. It was a risk when I purchased these fixtures but it has worked out so far. I bought them knowing I could expect to have to repair them which is okay for me - I service all my own and other customers equipment but can be a problem for others. The biggest issue was the feet - I replaced these with 2 in wide yokes.


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## jonliles (Jun 1, 2011)

church said:


> I purchased six RGBW wash fixtures from MS Lighting and shipped them over for $245 each including shipping. ... the following link shows the basic fixture but they can manufacture them with your own complement of LEDs - which is what I did.
> 
> LED Wall Washer-LED Light - Ms stage Lighting of chinese factory



Church-
Can you provide more details on how you customized them? Any photos of them in action?


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## scrogers (Jun 1, 2011)

church said:


> I purchased six RGBW wash fixtures from MS Lighting and shipped them over for $245 each including shipping.


 
I too wouldn't mind hearing some details on this. That seems like a really good price for LED ground rows. Is your custom part the RGBW (or did I miss that on their site)? From 3ft as you describe, how big a wash are you throwing, whole wall? Any idea the beam angle on these or if they have lenses? Thanks!


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## dj41354 (Jun 1, 2011)

derekleffew said:


> Probably not going to replace an S4-PAR, but a seemingly nice fixture nonetheless.
> 
> MSRP, dj41354?
> 
> Without actually seeing the unit--PROs: Listed, by NRTL, 5-pin XLR, RGBW, various lenses available, fanless, size; CONs: no power pass-thru, no track record.


 
MSRP = $780
It does have an internal fan that runs slowly enough to be almost inaudible.
Yeah.. pretty much no track record yet (just gettin' going) but PLSN published a "Road Test" back in Feb:
PLSN | The Brickblaster Pro
(the .pdf of the article is a little easier to read)
http://theblacktank.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/Brickblaster-Pro-Story.pdf
Fixture was introduced at LDI last Oct and generated a fair amount of interest.
Plus, the Warm+Neutral+Cool white (WNC) version was received pretty well at LFI in Philly last month.


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## church (Jun 1, 2011)

jonliles said:


> Church-
> Can you provide more details on how you customized them? Any photos of them in action?


 
normally the fixtures come with sixteen red, sixteen blue and sixteen green LEDs. We asked MS Lighting if they also supplied them with White and Amber LEDs - they said yes they could supply them with RGBW at no extra cost: sixteen green, sixteen blue LEDs, eight red and eight white. They can also supply RGBAW for an small charge - although no had asked for this before. It would add another control channel and they wanted us to say what LED mix we wanted.

We had purchased one of the RGB fixtures just to try it out - we figured it was worth chancing $245 to evaluate a fixture. It worked out well enough and we pulled it apart to see how well it was built and how it worked. We put it back together after stripping it down and still works fine.

It uses surface mount LEDs so there is no orientation variation between the LEDs, there is a lens that fits over each LED. The LEDs are in series chains of 8 LEDs each, there is a single pulse width modulation driver for each colour driving the LEDs through a power transistor.. The housing is a single aluminium extrusion with end caps. The LED board is mounted directly onto the extrusion with a layer of heat sink compound to provide a decent heat sink. The power supply is a seperate unit in its own case that fits inside the housing. The housing is black anodised and it has survived rough handling. The boards are all FR4 glass fibre. We were surprised at the build quality for the price.

The LEDs are matched there is no discernable colour difference between any LEDs in any of the fixtures. My friend also bought six and we often use all twelve together.

I do not know the beam angle but it is fairly narrow. I normally place them no more than three feet from the wall and three feet apart and angle them towards the wall. They will light the wall of a gym 25 feet high and also cover part of the ceiling. I do not have any photos I will try and get some. I also use them to wash the wall before the choir comes onto the "stage" and they are capable of washing the wall with saturated colour even with the normal gym lights on.

The things I do not like are:

1) the touch panel membrane buttons are a bit too small for my fingers.
2) the original mounting brackets - replaced with yokes
3) when fading up from zero they do not turn on until 20% and the dimmer curve could be a bit smoother it is about the same standard as the Elation Professional and NSI shoebox dimmers. Strangely enough they are smoother fading using their own internal programmed routines. I have used them with Colortran, Elation and ETC boards and the behaviour is the same.
4) the original power connectors - I cut them off and replaced them with Leviton U grounds.
5) The 3 pin XLRs (black colour which is nice) but the quality of the connector is not as good as a Neutrik connector and the 26 gauge DMX cable is too flimsy. These have survived six months of rental work but will need to be replaced shortly - not a big deal and a cheap modification.

The strobe feature is good - you can strobe all LEDs simultaneously to give a white around 4500K or you can strobe in Red, Blue or Green. You can run in four channel mode or seven. The four channel works well on a theatre board where you can program your own chases etc.

We also use them for R&R shows and they hold their own with a rig of 24 PAR 64s with 1kW lamps. I also use them with a rig of S4 PARs and again they are okay.

Not perfect but pretty darn good for $245 each. All in all they have convinced me that LEDs are a useful tool and acceptable performance is achievable at a reasonable price. As the technology improves in the next year or so the performance will become phenomenal.

I should mention that my friend has one that has a failed LED - we are waiting for MS Lighting to send a replacement and some extra spare LEDs just in case.


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## church (Jun 2, 2011)

scrogers said:


> I too wouldn't mind hearing some details on this. That seems like a really good price for LED ground rows. Is your custom part the RGBW (or did I miss that on their site)? From 3ft as you describe, how big a wash are you throwing, whole wall? Any idea the beam angle on these or if they have lenses? Thanks!


 
The beam angle is quite narrow and there are time when I wish it was wider but they use the same lens arrangement that I have seen on other LED fixtures. When we pulled a sample apart we found the lens assemblies are glued on and can be removed easily so presumably if you had other lenses you could replace them. We later realised that MS Lighting offer different lens angles so presumably we could have specified something else - the trick is knowing what to ask for. It is possible to use a light frost on the front to widen the spread. 

When I use them behind the choir the light on the bottom five feet of the wall is patchy because of the beam angle but the audience doesn't see it because of the risers. I did try them on a cyc on a small stage and I had to use frost on them to get an even wash that I found acceptable.

Unfortunately I do not have any photos to post - I am not any good at photography so I only have a camera that is great for daylight and flash but does not give good results for anything else. I will ask my friend to see if he has any photos from the gigs they have done.


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## scrogers (Jun 2, 2011)

church said:


> The beam angle is quite narrow and there are time when I wish it was wider but they use the same lens arrangement that I have seen on other LED fixtures. When we pulled a sample apart we found the lens assemblies are glued on and can be removed easily so presumably if you had other lenses you could replace them. We later realised that MS Lighting offer different lens angles so presumably we could have specified something else - the trick is knowing what to ask for. It is possible to use a light frost on the front to widen the spread.
> ...


 
Thanks for the info. They seem like a pretty good deal for $245 shipped. I'm assuming you called them directly and ordered? I checked out their site and downloaded their 2011 catalog, they actually have a ton of offerings (LEDs, movers, conventionals etc.). Unfortunately, there are no prices anywhere. Also looks like they offer a 48in version with the same 3w LEDs. 

People here and elsewhere have said repeatedly you get what you pay for in terms of LEDs, but from your experience, you're not paying a lot and getting something that sounds rather acceptable. I can't find any hands on experiences/reviews of any of their products (other than yours of course), but that doesn't really surprise me as they are heavily based out of China and are a little obscure. Certainly a good find. Thanks again.


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## church (Jun 3, 2011)

scrogers said:


> Thanks for the info. They seem like a pretty good deal for $245 shipped. I'm assuming you called them directly and ordered? I checked out their site and downloaded their 2011 catalog, they actually have a ton of offerings (LEDs, movers, conventionals etc.). Unfortunately, there are no prices anywhere. Also looks like they offer a 48in version with the same 3w LEDs.
> 
> People here and elsewhere have said repeatedly you get what you pay for in terms of LEDs, but from your experience, you're not paying a lot and getting something that sounds rather acceptable. I can't find any hands on experiences/reviews of any of their products (other than yours of course), but that doesn't really surprise me as they are heavily based out of China and are a little obscure. Certainly a good find. Thanks again.


 
We did everything by email - time zone difference is the biggest issue. I have emailed my friend to see if he has any photos of the wash lights working - he is in Australia on a tour at the moment so not sure when to expect a reply.

My friend also bought two of the moving heads they already have a number of MACs and Elation heads in inventory but they wanted to see what you got. They came with the same Phillips lamps they have in their MACs. They have not been so happy with the heads as we are with the LED wash fixtures. The biggest pain was simply having to write every macro from scratch - otherwise they seem to have worked fine.


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