# Having to deal with pulling out of weight linesets to correct them.



## CSCTech (Jun 7, 2010)

Hey guys,

Never been onstage of a proffesional venue I am not sure what goes on there. I know here we do not have full flys, but we do have flys. Only 6, but better than all hardmounted. (Grand Drape Electric 1 Legs, Electric 2, Legs, Extra Batten, Rear traveller. And two top drapes and mid trav are hardmounted.)
Anyways, when removing or adding lights, of course the line is no longer proporly weighted. So usealy if say taking off a few fixtures, before the electric is flown in we will remove one weight, have two hands bringing it in due to the disproportion, and then remove a fixture or two, have 2 if not 3 just to be on the safer side since it is easier to bring in a batten heavey load than out a weight heavy, hands bringing it back out to unload another brick or two. Then repeating this until finished, then finally getting the set in correct proportion.

I was wondering if this is just how it has to be done everywhere or if there is something that other venues have to not have to do this?

Tips are much obliged, but this is the easiest/safest way to do it that I can see in our setup.


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## derekleffew (Jun 7, 2010)

CSCTech said:


> ... I was wondering if this is just how it has to be done everywhere or if there is something that other venues have to not have to do this? ...


The way you're doing it is the best method considering your circumstances.

Other venues have either a loading bridge, or use some variety of bull winch. One example:


Mobile Winch Systems by Tiffin Scenic Studios, Inc. 

An argument could be made that your method is actually safer, because you're never dealing with more than one weight's worth of imbalance. But using a bull winch is much faster, which is why the professionals use it.

N.B., The term dead hung is preferable to "hardmounted". Likewise border vs. "top drape".


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## MPowers (Jun 7, 2010)

J.R. Clancy Rigging Manufacturers have a section on their web site about rigging safety
J.R. Clancy Operation & Safety - Articles
There are a number of very good articles and "How To" that you should read, especially the one by Bill Sapsis, one of the industry's absolutely best riggers. It covers exactly what you are asking about, how to deal with loading arbors when you don't have a loading bridge. It is about 3/4 of the way down the list. Take a look, you won't be sorry you did! the article is: 
Loading the Arbor – How to add counterweight without a loading bridge

Michael Powers, Project Manager
ETCP Certified Rigger - Theatre
Central Lighting & Equipment Inc.
675 NE 45th Place, Des Moines, Iowa, 50313


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## CSCTech (Jun 7, 2010)

derek,

Ah, alright.

And deadhung, yeah, name was escaping me : )
And never heard Border, but now I know!

MPowers, Thanks, I will read it : )


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## Footer (Jun 7, 2010)

I assume you don't have a loading gallery. My venue also does not have a loading rail, same as yours. Very few professional road houses do not have a loading rail. Standard procedure at a house with a loading rail is to bring in the lineset until it the arbor hits a stop block at the top of the track, load up the pipe with its load, attach bull lines if necessary, weight the arbor, and then take the piece out. 

In a house without a loading rail there are two ways to work. One is what you are doing, which is known as "bouncing". If done in small doses, a brick or two at a time, it works rather well and is relatively safe. It is very time consuming though. It wears out an operator and can lead to mistakes being made. 

The other way is to use some type of motor to take the empty lineset out. This is sometimes done with a capstan winch or a purpose built winch that clips into the T rail. 

My venue is a double purchase system, therefore it is nearly impossible to bounce any pipe. In order to allow us to actually use our fly system, we own a 1 ton chain hoist. Before I bring a pipe into the deck I attach the chain to the bottom of the arbor. I bring the pipe in and load it. After the pipe is loaded, I attach the motor the rail and bring the arbor in/pipe out. When the arbor is in I load it up until the motor is no longer taking weight, take off the motor, and test the set. Usually it takes an extra brick or two to get the set in weight, but it does work.


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## Sony (Jun 8, 2010)

I do not know if this is considered safe and please let me know if it isn't, but I have also seen the technique mentioned above with the bull winch done with block and tackle (rated of course) to pull the arbor down and then secure it with a safety line, mouse or uncle buddy.


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## derekleffew (Jun 8, 2010)

Block and tackle is mentioned in the Sapsis article referenced above, as well as in the article below.

As for "safety line", do you mean snub line?
"mouse", ?
"uncle buddy". See page 9 in the document _Counterweight Rigging (without loading bridge) (PDF)_ on this page J.R. Clancy Operation & Safety - Operation Manuals.

See also the (very ancient) thread http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/scenery/551-rigging-question-tieing-off-line-set.html.


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## Sony (Jun 8, 2010)

derekleffew said:


> Block and tackle is mentioned in the Sapsis article referenced above, as well as in the article below.
> 
> As for "safety line", do you mean snub line?
> "mouse", ?
> ...



Yea, Snub Line, we always just called them safety lines, I never really knew the proper term, I'll start calling it a Snub line from now on. 
The "mouse" is what we call the wooden dowel that is inserted into a lineset that is twisted to prevent it from moving. I've heard it called multiple things like a spike or I do believe belaying pin is the proper term.


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## fredthe (Jun 8, 2010)

Sony said:


> The "mouse" is what we call the wooden dowel that is inserted into a lineset that is twisted to prevent it from moving.


Whatever you call it, I've seen this fail... At the end of a musical, where the musicians were in the wings, the keyboard player was moving his keyboard off stage. The keyboard hit the stick, the lineset unwound, and the 1st electric descended rapidly to the stage. Amazingly, no one was hit, though a few probably needed clean pants. The only casualty was one cracked lens.


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## derekleffew (Jun 8, 2010)

Good point, fredthe. In fact, the Clancy article does say that if this method is used, it *must* be held in place by a person, and not wedged in the guide track or left unattended. BTW, I've heard it called "stabbing the line." The other thread calls it "dogging."

Back to the original topic... I still contend that adding/subtracting weights and lights one or two at a time is the safest method.


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## venuetech (Jun 8, 2010)

fredthe said:


> the keyboard player was moving his keyboard off stage. The keyboard hit the stick, the lineset unwound, and the 1st electric descended rapidly to the stage.



Line sets should never under any circumstances be left unattended in an out of balance condition. 
They are only safe when the load is balanced properly.

A tie off or stab is only a temporary solution to aid the operator in achieving that balance.


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## MPowers (Jun 8, 2010)

Just to set the record straight. There are times when one must, and there are many ways of, safely, securing a line set so that they can be left unattended, on a temporary basis, extended basis and permanent basis. However, if you don't already know those methods, "don't try this at home", don't try to self teach, get a qualified rigger to do it for you. Notice there is no "description" or "how to" in this post.

Temporary would be like a carpet hoist rig for a performance. Extended would be like a batten or speaker rig removed during a *Heavy Set* tour show like Cats or Wicked to make the show rigging fit for the two or three weeks they're in town. Permanent is any dead hung rig. 

Michael Powers, Project Manager
ETCP Certified Rigger - Theatre
Central Lighting & Equipment Inc.
675 NE 45th Place, Des Moines, Iowa, 50313


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## Tex (Jun 9, 2010)

derekleffew said:


> BTW, I've heard it called "stabbing the line." The other thread calls it "dogging."


I've also heard it called "sticking off" a line.


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## venuetech (Jun 9, 2010)

MPowers said:


> Just to set the record straight. There are times when one must, and there are many ways of, safely, securing a line set so that they can be left unattended, on a temporary basis, extended basis and permanent basis. However, if you don't already know those methods, "don't try this at home", don't try to self teach, get a qualified rigger to do it for you. Notice there is no "description" or "how to" in this post.



Yes, I should have prefaced my statement with something like... 
"Unless you are a qualified rigger or an experienced fly operator."


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