# Water Fountains



## techismylife (Nov 1, 2005)

I'd like to create a water effect where water is shot in a straight column around 20 feet in the air and then falls back into a trough. It doesn't need to last long and is only used one time per show. Multiple columns would be nice, too. Any help is appreciated.


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## jumpjet (Nov 1, 2005)

20 feet, huh? That's some good distance. How large a spray does it have to be? The smaller the spray, the less effort it is going to take to launch it.


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## propmonkey (Nov 1, 2005)

compressed air to shot the water from a tube?


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## techismylife (Nov 1, 2005)

i'm thinking anywhere from 3/4" to 2" diameter column of water. 20 feet would be good, but its the concept i need the most help with. Here's what i'm thinking so far:
A large open trough/water tank with sloped sides, roughly 4' wide by 16' long with either 4 or 5 fountains spaced evenly along the center line. I'm wondering if it is best to do 1 pump that stays running and then a valve at each spray, or a pump at each spray that just starts when i need the effect. Thing is that it needs to be at maximum height when it starts, not build up. Also, does anyone know of anywhere to order supplies for this?


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## propmonkey (Nov 1, 2005)

so is this just a one shot or do you need a constant stream for like 30secs?


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## techismylife (Nov 1, 2005)

1 shot--instantaneous. I'm now also considering what it would take to make a water screen that something could be projected on. (This would need to last longer).


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## kingfisher1 (Nov 1, 2005)

what exactly is this for. sounds neat but i would just lik to be the bad old pessimist for a second. i was doing a show involving a large poicher of water, a big spill and an actor with a broken leg. enough said
on a brighter side, i know disney world uses this effect as landscping. maybe try and contact a grounds maitnence pearson or something to see how they do it. Going through a large corporate beurocracie might be very frustrating but sometimes it actally works.


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## techismylife (Nov 1, 2005)

This is for a basketball team intro. I saw the fountain style effect on broadway and would like to recreate it--it reminds me of a pyro gerb and water can be pretty mezmorizing with colored lighting. So I've got a large basketball court to work with and structural beams about 40' high, the roof another 10-20'. A water screen would be neat and I could project various colors and then use gobos to project the team name on the screen. The ground level portion of the system has to be portable and well designed so it can be moved off and leave no water on the court for the players. But if for some reason it spills over, I will have capability to clean it before the game begns.

has anyone worked with http://www.tsunamiscreen.com/ ?


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## ricc0luke (Nov 1, 2005)

Ok... intanous...

Get a tank, a pressure tank, fill it with water and fill it with compressed air... lot of it...

The outlet of course should be at the bottom... then run high pressure hoses to where you want the jets...

Frankly, I think it would be easier and in this case even safer to use to pyros...

Putting water anywhere near a basketball court is a good reason to have an athletic nut kill you. No matter what you would do there would certain to be some splash... Not to meniton the fact that water is heavy...

Use pyros. They might even be cheaper than trying to build your own apparatus to shoot water...

As far as lighting goes, you don't need water for lighting... Useing some cool lighting throughout the room else where and incorperate it with the pyros...

Water in this case is just not a good idea...

Keep in mind that shows on broadway cost tens of millions of dollars, they aren't something just thrown together...


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## Radman (Nov 1, 2005)

You could possibly use fog, which can be lit as well. Otherwise you will undoubtedly have to put a LOT of plannung into the effect, as well as multiple test runs and reworkings to get it right.


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## ricc0luke (Nov 1, 2005)

ISU uses fog for their entrances... they have 2 peices of truss that roll out on eighter side of the locker room entrance... inside the truss was red cyc lights and a few foggers... very niffty... and well contained and easy to roll around!


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## Mayhem (Nov 2, 2005)

For a water jet to go straight up and back down into a trough you are going to need to have a perfectly vertical column and there will be very little room for tollerance on the jet/nozle.

Water screens are a great effect but are generally done on water. i.e., you set up the system on a pond/lake/pool etc.

The previous comments about water and highly poloshed floors is one to be taken seriously. Seen the kids on TV mopping up the swet from a fallen player. Imagine the mess your water effects will make.

I would go fog or pyro, but would stay away from gerbs, as hot fallout also doesn't mix well with highly polished floors!

Smoke and flash pots would look good, combined with some nice lighting effects would be your best bet.


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## kingfisher1 (Nov 2, 2005)

There is the rain effect with the pvc pive w/ holes at top. sounds easy but never tried it myself. but thats really not what ure going for now is it. but as i said you will become very familliar with low coeffecients of kinetic friction when you use water and slick floor.


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## techismylife (Nov 3, 2005)

Thank you everyone for your recommendations. I've got some pyro lined up (so many legalities for that you have to start really early now), some fog, some intelligent lighting, and I'm going to build a fountain that uses a 3" pvc tank 4 feet tall; 2.5 feet for water, 1.5 feet for compressed air. The bottom of the tank will reduce to 1", go through an electric valve, turn paralell to the ground and then T such that there is a 1/2" outlet for the first spray, then a 3/4" pipe continuing to the next outlet, where a T reducing to 2 1/2" outputs will be. The trough will be about 4 feet wide, 2 feet high with sloped sides. I will test this many times before putting it on a basketball court, and then several more times on the court before "opening night" to ensure that absolutely no water leaks. 

Thanks for your replies, and I'm open to any more tips!


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## Mayhem (Nov 3, 2005)

Make sure that you post some pictures


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## jwl868 (Nov 4, 2005)

PVC is not recommended for use with compressed air. 

I'd be surprised if you can find a pressure-rated PVC tank (or even of polyethylene). 

There are equations for the basic characteristics of water jets from nozzles out there. (I don't have them. You might be able to find them on the internet or maybe in a water hydraulics book.) In any case, you should be able to find an equation that correlates the nozzle/hole diameter to the pressure and velocity and height of the water jet will reach. 

Also, that information will give you a better idea how much pressurized water you really need since it will give you the flow rate per nozzle and then you know how long you want each nozzle to operate (Did you really mean 3-inch diameter on your tank?). (A 3 foot diameter tank as described has about 100 gallons of water for a working capacity.) At 2.5 feet of water in a 3 foot (?) diameter tank, that's 1,100 lb of water to move. 

Note that if you just "charge" (rather than have a constant air compressed air supply) an acceptable tank with compressed air, the pressure will drop by a factor of 2 (at least) as you spray out most of the water. (Although I can't imagine having to spray that full 100 gallons.)

(ricc0luke's suggestion of a pressure tank is probably the best – look in a plumbing supply catalogue – these types of tanks are typically used in houses with individual wells and tall buildings. They are made to be pressurized. [For some reason, I think these tanks have an internal rubber bladder that allows them to be pressurized by the well pump – you may be able to pressurize your tank with the venues water pressure.] And consider the pressure of your source of compressed air and the design pressure of your system [that is, assume that the entire system might be pressurized to the source's maximum pressure] – the weak link will be the tank/pipe joint or a valve.)

Again, PVC is not recommended for use with compressed air.

Joe


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## jwl868 (Nov 4, 2005)

A few more things to consider:

1. You mentioned an electric-powered valve. But be sure to provide a manual shutoff valve, (and in this particular case) a fast closing ball valve to cover electrical failure, but..…

2. Watch out for any water hammer effects with these fast closing valves, although my gut-feeling is that the water velocity in the pipe will be too slow to make a difference.

3. Consider the possibility that the ventilation and drafts at the venue will carry some of the spray onto the court or into the crowd.

4. I suspect that alignment, level-ness, and plumb-ness of the nozzles are crucial to keeping the stream on target, as it were. How you manage to test and proof it off-site will have to be easily and exactly reproducible at the venue. And consider how you will test it at the venue before the show, and provisions for spills from that. 

5. Calculate the volume of water you will spray and capture, then figure how much that weighs and how you will get that trough and water off the court. And with consideration of the hardwood floor.

6. Have a contingency for the little spills and for the Big Spill.

7. Another worst-case scenario – where are the lights? Where is the scoreboard? What prevents you from shooting higher than planned?

Joe


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## Mayhem (Nov 4, 2005)

I don't know about the US but here you can get high pressure rated PVC pipe that is rated for compressed air. There is now a new variety that has a UV resistant coating as well.

The key is not exceeding the pressure that it is rated for.


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## kingfisher1 (Nov 5, 2005)

distance and height formulas should just be modified parabolic equations...


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## ricc0luke (Nov 5, 2005)

I don't know any PVC other than maybe PVC electrical conduit that doens't have a pressure rating on it. The trick is finding PVC with a high enough rating. Waterhammer shouldn't be a problem if you are using compressed air...

Now... have you figured out how you are moving a 4 ft wide and how ever long tank on and off the court? You had better be very very careful in the number of castors and the type of caster you use... on a basketball court peunamtic would be the best, but they would never hold the weight... Not peunamtic castors anyway... but you could used wheels like that from a wheelbarrow and then fix 2 on the back end and 2 on the front that turn... like how your wagon as a kid was... That would be alot better to control that much weight with than swivaling castors...

Also, what doors are you using... Have you though about the number of people around during games and if they will be in the areas you need to move though?

And a 3" PVC pipe with 2"6' of water in it? Thats not much... Only 212 cubic inches... Thats less than 2 gallons... Not much to make 2 fountains out of... Keep in mind that not all of the water will leave the tank and pipes... some will stay in them... Yet just that small about of water weighs near 20 pounds, and that doesn't include all the equipment it would take for two small fountains...

How do you plan on concealing the tanks?

How much money do you plan on spending?

This just isn't feasible unless you have one very large budget...


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## kingfisher1 (Nov 5, 2005)

hate to say buddy but i think i just heard a bubble pop.


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## jwl868 (Nov 8, 2005)

PVC should not be used for compressed air.

The PVC piping that is typically used in the white or grey, pressure-rated, small diameter piping used for water plumbing American Society for Testing and Materials (ASTM 1784) Schedule 40 or Schedule 80. There is other non-pressure-rated plumbing under ASTM 2665 and 3311. Electrical conduit meets a different set of standards and is not meant for plumbing. 

It is not a question of pressure; it is a question of chemical resistance. The oils and high temperatures typically associated with compressed air systems weakens PVC. Over time, the system that could easily handle 250 psi will fail at 150 psi or whatever the compressor is putting out. As an analogy, consider a steel pipe carrying sulfuric acid. The pipe can handle the pressure initially, but eventually the acid will weaken the pipe and the pipe will fail. 

Rigid PVC (polyvinyl chloride) pipe should not be used with compressed air. Chemtrol, a major PVC products manufacturer (owned by NIBCO), puts this warning at the bottom of each page of their PVC products catalog. "Explosive Fragmentation" is a term I've seen used in one manufacturer's warning. I found at least one Australian pipe vendor's website that includes the admonishment against the use of PVC for compressed air (although the Australian warning allows it to be buried or "protected"). 

A few PVC pipe manufacturers also produce ABS (acrylonitrile-butadiene-styrene) piping which can be used for compressed air. The ABS is often marketed with the rigid PVC product, but it is not PVC. There are other plastic piping material including polyethylene and polypropylene. 

Nibco and Chemtrol links:
http://www.nibco.com/cms.do

http://www.nibco.com/assets/plasticfit.pdf

An Australian source (thermoplastic pipe systems)
http://www.vinidex.com.au/vinidex/l...4PVCPipesandFittingsforCompressedGaslines.pdf

Joe


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## chieftfac (Nov 8, 2005)

I think the only way you can get water to stay in the column that high is to use something called "lamminar flow" It's a way of spinning the water around inside the pipe before it gets shot into the air. They use it both at Disney and at that olympic park down in Atlanta. Shoot water that high and it's going to come down eveywhere. As a former basketball player I would kill the person who got the floor wet before a game. Though as a stage tech I can't wait to see the pics!!!!


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## jwl868 (Nov 8, 2005)

One other follow up:

Water hammer is the result of a sudden change in the velocity of the fluid in the pipe. (The physical properties of the pipe affects the magnitude of water hammer as does the velocity of the fluid). The source of the power on the fluid (whether a pump, reservoir, or compressed air vessel) does not directly affect the water hammer. The sudden change in velocity can be caused by quickly closing (or opening) a valve (you may hear this in your household plumbing with a quick opening bathroom sink faucet), pumping at full rate into an empty pipeline that has a vertical, upward segment, and a pipeline bursting (often when an old municipal water line suddenly bursts, other weak points may begin to leak or burst too.)



Joe


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## soundman1024 (Nov 8, 2005)

Perhaps the best thing you can do is use gravity.


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## ricc0luke (Nov 8, 2005)

soundman1024 said:


> Perhaps the best thing you can do is use gravity.



Water hammer is a sudden change when there is nothing to absorb the force... Thats why when you run a water pipe it runs about a foot above where the lead to the focuet is... in this foot of pipe air gets trapped and absorbs the sudden change in velocity...

There shouldn't be a problem with water hammer in this set up.


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## Mayhem (Nov 8, 2005)

jwl868 said:


> PVC should not be used for compressed air.
> 
> The PVC piping that is typically used in the white or grey, pressure-rated, small diameter piping used for water plumbing American Society for Testing and Materials (ASTM 1784) Schedule 40 or Schedule 80. There is other non-pressure-rated plumbing under ASTM 2665 and 3311. Electrical conduit meets a different set of standards and is not meant for plumbing.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the clarification Joe – there is obviously a mix up the description of the materials, as the pipe I have seen and heard about was touted as being PVC. Obviously it is different. You are also correct in saying that the stock is generally kept in with other types of PVC pipe. I'll have to see if I can find some more info on it.

With the comment on the oils in compressed air – I would expect this to only be an issue if an automated oiling system was in place. If not, the only issue with liquids getting into compressed air is water, which should not pose any problem as PVC pipe is designed to carry water.


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## kingfisher1 (Nov 10, 2005)

Other questions
Have we thought about how this is giong to be operated? just some random pearson flipping a valve? 

just anouther idea....
provided that the fountain works...maybe, to minimize splatter, you should pad the trough with a softer material that would act as and absorbant airbag to the water and minimize splater. maybe sand or something?


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## jonhirsh (Nov 11, 2005)

I have to say this might not be coherant because i just finished drafting a show and its 230am but here i go. 

I work on a kids tv show called the doodlebops where one of the leads gets dumped with a bucket of water every show, its a 5 gallon bucket. now i cant tell you how we do (disney sigh...) but i can tell you that even with a 5 foot diameter trough filled with towels the splash from this bucket goes about 10' to 14' in every which concivable direction. now of course its hitting a person and being droped from 12' up but i think you might have the same issue. water does not do what we want it to we like to think if the diameter of the jet strem is 4" then the water that falls should fall in lets even be generous and say a 4 foot radius. well it doesnt because it will hit your pipe on the way down, wind will change its path. and so on and so on if i were you i would just step back and say hey its a basket ball game lets save our production buget for things that we really need and besides the fans are going to come weither you do the effect or not , its not like you will increse your fan base by doing it. 

whats the benifit to you? to your team? to the school?

are you doing it so you can add somthing to your resume?

if you are thats not a great way to make choices. pyro, water, fire there cool but if the show or sporting event in this case doesnt call for it why do it, its not wwe raw its a high school game. 


again its 240am now so i hope i wasnt to offensive i didnt mean to be just tired and trying to help. 

JH


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## saxman0317 (Apr 24, 2006)

Ive seen a hydrolic like efect used before. Imagine that you have a big plunger on one end filled with water and the tubing primed as well. Have someone puch down hard and fast on the plunger and youll get that effect at the other end. Cheap, easy to build and silent. (less things to go wrong than with air, etc. to)


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## kingfisher1 (Apr 24, 2006)

that'd be one massive plunger, but really like the thinking here


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## saxman0317 (Apr 30, 2006)

kingfisher1 said:


> that'd be one massive plunger, but really like the thinking here



not really though. When you think about hydrolic effects, for a effective say 1/4" stream at the end, you shouldnt need more than a 7-10"coloum at the other end, and not even more than say 3-5" deep depending on how long you want to squirt the water.


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## mbandgeek (May 6, 2006)

you can also use baking soda and vinegar. in a two bottle device (vinegar in the top and baking soda in the bottom) that had a couple of valves that close to build up pressure (you want to do this when the vinegar entered the baking soda bottle). Easily shot over 30 feet. with the right combination of vinegar and baking soda.


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## MHSTech (May 7, 2006)

techismylife said:


> I'd like to create a water effect where water is shot in a straight column around 20 feet in the air and then falls back into a trough.


So, in other words, you want to creat a high powered complex squirt gun. 

Personally, I would use a high-pressure water pump that goes either straight to the nozzel or to the nozzel through a short piece of hose. Why? There's no place that will hold pressure, and the only kind of pressure that will happen during this is backpressure from the nozzel. Also, there's going to be less places for the thing to leak or fail. Only problem I see with this is that the pump might not prime right away. In which case you would want the pump downhill from the water supply as that the water will be at the pump and no air in the line.


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## mbandgeek (May 7, 2006)

MHSTech said:


> So, in other words, you want to creat a high powered complex squirt gun.
> 
> Personally, I would use a high-pressure water pump that goes either straight to the nozzel or to the nozzel through a short piece of hose. Why? There's no place that will hold pressure, and the only kind of pressure that will happen during this is backpressure from the nozzel. Also, there's going to be less places for the thing to leak or fail. Only problem I see with this is that the pump might not prime right away. In which case you would want the pump downhill from the water supply as that the water will be at the pump and no air in the line.



that is a very interesting way how to put it. why can't you just hook up something to a hose, somehow limiting the amount of space that water can flow throughsmaller hole increases the shooting distance.


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## Radman (May 7, 2006)

MHSTech said:


> So, in other words, you want to creat a high powered complex squirt gun.
> 
> Personally, I would use a high-pressure water pump that goes either straight to the nozzel or to the nozzel through a short piece of hose. Why? There's no place that will hold pressure, and the only kind of pressure that will happen during this is backpressure from the nozzel. Also, there's going to be less places for the thing to leak or fail. Only problem I see with this is that the pump might not prime right away. In which case you would want the pump downhill from the water supply as that the water will be at the pump and no air in the line.


Only downside being noise. If that's not an issue, this may be the best idea, as they make fairly small (smaller than your tank would be) electric pumps. They use simple garden hose, heck you could have the whole setup be garden hose, run from a spout even. No tank required.


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