# Buying first computer for show control



## Evans Poulos (Dec 14, 2015)

Good afternoon everybody! I run a small multiuse theater for a local park district and we're looking to buy our first computer for the theater. We have an old EPC board with a midi USB dongle that visiting lighting designer uses from time to time that works well. We would like to be able to automate the light board, run sound, run projections and a variety of other things. We have a very tight budget obviously being a park district. 

At first blush I would think to get a Mac Mini and Q lab and just get on with my life but we don't do anything else apple in the district at all so I'm wondering if there's a good windows alternative or if perhaps we should think about getting the Mac Mini but also getting a decent PC for playback control and other things any suggestions. 

I'm actually very curious to find out if anybody has successfully operated to show using Q lab running in a virtual machine on windows that would be an ideal situation for me I think. 

Right now I have about 60 tungsten light, 10 ETC LED pars, a 16 channel Mackie analog board, CD player, DVD player, VHS player, cassette player... you see why I am trying to combine things here right? And then I wonder why some idiot always brings his phone to try and run sound for a show...

Anyway I'd be very grateful for any and all advice you can give me. I have about a $2000 budget right now


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## sk8rsdad (Dec 14, 2015)

Unless something has changed, Apple does not license their operating system on any hardware other than Apple so there's no legal way to put OS X on a Windows machine.


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## Drew Schmidt (Dec 14, 2015)

Figure53 (Qlab) would steer you away from using non-Apple hardware. MacOS is created to work with very specific machines. VirtualMachines and Hackintoshes might work, but are rarely reliable for a show setting when there can be _no_ hiccups. 

I would recommend looking at the MacMini. You can get these for $500ish if you already have monitor, keyboard, etc. This should have the muscle you need if you're just doing audio and show control.


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## notoriousRBG (Dec 14, 2015)

Get a Mac Mini, SSD, as powerful as you can afford. Ditto above. Hackintosh are just not that reliable. Really it's worth it for QLab-- industry standard and dirt cheap.


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## Evans Poulos (Dec 14, 2015)

So USB audio
USB midi control
How do I feed VGA monitor and projector?

I appreciate the help I'll keep thinking of questions as this moves along


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## Evans Poulos (Dec 14, 2015)

One of the reasons I was thinking PC in the first place was that I could use native graphics cards on these VGA devices


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## dbaxter (Dec 14, 2015)

The Cue Player family of software is for Windows should you want to stay with that OS. [disclainer - it is from my company]
It will control up to 1024 DMX channels for lighting, no practical limit on cues for either sound or lights. With the Plus option, projections can be controlled from your VGA outputs.
Both programs have a free trial period so you can see if they fit your needs.


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## Drew Schmidt (Dec 15, 2015)

See the image below for reference ...

There are two thunderbolt ports next to the HDMI port. These can be used as MiniDisplay ports. You can get a Thunderbolt - VGA adapter for your VGA monitor. Use the other Thunderbolt port or the HDMI port to get to your other screen. I often use HDMI via a Cat5 HDMI extender to get to my catwalks from the computer. 

As for audio, if you don't already have a USB audio device and you're not trying to send separate audio to different locations, there's nothing wrong with using the headphone jack to go to your sound board. It's lesser quality, but at this point in your journey it's likely good enough. When you know _why_ you need better quality, that's the time to spend the money. 

Final disclaimer, the MacMini doesn't have a DVD drive (because it's 2015). You can purchase one as an add on. Sorry, there's no USB - VHS tape device : )


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## Evans Poulos (Dec 15, 2015)

Lol. I already know that I'd rather not use the headphone jack. Already have buzzing issues with other devices people jack into our board... 
What's a good USB capture device for an external video source? Or rip them on a pc and move them over?


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## Drew Schmidt (Dec 15, 2015)

USB 3.0 or Thunderbolt - Blackmagic Intensity Shuttle
https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/intensity


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## Evans Poulos (Dec 15, 2015)

I like. And not terribly spendy.


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## jwh78 (Dec 15, 2015)

I positively abhore Apple, but I the church I work for bought a MB Pro and a full Qlab license anyway. on my initiative. As far as my research could uncover there's just nothing that comes even close to Qlab for a payable amount of money, even if you already own a WinPC. Believe me, I've searched...


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## robartsd (Dec 15, 2015)

Poor quality from one device's headphone jack does not equate to poor quality from all. Also I believe the audio output from all modern Macs have headphone jacks that support TOSLINK digital audio out using a mini-plug adapter.


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## Evans Poulos (Dec 15, 2015)

If my board had a digital in...


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## Drew Schmidt (Dec 15, 2015)

Honestly, the headphone jack isn't that bad. You're more likely going to be bound by the quality of sound effects that you can find. 

If you're looking for a USB Audio Card, a lot of people have been happy with the Focusrite products. I have a Scarlett 2i2 that I really like. I also use this to do a lot of foley work for my productions (actually using the AKG Perception mic from B&H lower on the page I linked ... not studio band quality, but plenty good enough to do foley for live productions).


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## Evans Poulos (Dec 15, 2015)

That would be more than good enough. I agree that some (most?) phone jacks are fine but I'm still dealing with a ton of crappy gear so I'm trying to make this as bulletproof as possible. It's getting better bit by bit busy still...


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## DRU (Dec 16, 2015)

Evans Poulos said:


> I'm actually very curious to find out if anybody has successfully operated to show using Q lab running in a virtual machine on windows that would be an ideal situation for me I think.



Running a virtual machine of OSX in windows would greatly reduce quality and speed. The computer has to render two operating systems instead of one, and the resources needed to run the cues Qlab would be used to render Qlab itself and OSX on the virtual machine. Never a good idea.


sk8rsdad said:


> .message-body-dynamic { width: 300px; height: 250px; } Unless something has changed, Apple does not license their operating system on any hardware other than Apple so there's no legal way to put OS X on a Windows machine.



That is still true. Because Apple went from creating their own PowerPC chips to using Intel's CPUs, they saved tons of money and effort trying to keep up with Intel and AMD. But it does allow people to hack the OS onto non-Apple products as long as the specs required by the OS are the same as the hardware in the custom box they are making. Apple isn't going after individuals who do it in their homes for personal use, but if they try to sell them, they get hit hard by the lawyer machine.

On that note, buying an old Mac Pro silver tower and upgrading video, audio, memory, and HD is still kosher. You won't have the latest and greatest CPU (although a 3.33GHZ 6-Core Intel processor is nothing to complain about, despite being 5ish years old), but you can add multiple modern video cards, upgrade the memory, and add SSDs to increase performance. As long as you don't change the motherboard (where the Apple BIOS is located).


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## ratthepoodle (Dec 16, 2015)

I agree with the mac mini. They are [relatively] inexpensive and also are build well. But, the thing that really makes Apple the better choice is QLab. Running audio out of the headphone jack should work fine too.


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## robartsd (Dec 17, 2015)

DRU said:


> Because Apple went from creating their own PowerPC chips to using Intel's CPUs, they saved tons of money and effort trying to keep up with Intel and AMD.


Apple never made PowerPC processors. They purchased them from IBM and Motorolla. IBM's PowerPC roadmap focused on servers, Motorolla's PowerPC roadmap focused on enbedded systems - neither were working to supply what Apple needed for 64 bit PowerPC notebooks. Intel's processors and roadmap was much more compatable with Apple's needs particularly for notebooks (high performance and efficiency) - that's why notebooks lead the transition to Intel processors.

So far Apple's in house design of CPU chips is limited to "System on a chip" processors for iOS devices (starting with Apple A4).


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## Evans Poulos (Jan 4, 2016)

Back to this project now that the holidays are over. I'm pretty convinced that I should go with the Mac mini and Qlab for this. I'm wondering though if I should consider also getting a smaller PC to try out things like console software (I'll be putting in for a new console in next years budget! Lol). Do most of the majors make Mac versions as well?


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## dthomas32308 (Jan 4, 2016)

There are a few out that support Mac but most I've used aren't as stable of Mac as they are PC. ChamSys MagicPC is one that runs on Mac and is pretty stable in it


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## Chris Rigby (Jan 4, 2016)

Something else to consider is that it is very easy to have Boot Camp on a Mac mini to use both Windows and MacOS, if you still want the option to use Windows for things besides QLab.


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## ratthepoodle (Jan 4, 2016)

I use GLD and Allen and Heath has mac software. I also am pretty sure that PreSonus, Mackie, Yamaha, and Midas have mac editors. The only manufacturers that I know doesn't have a mac offline editor is Soundcraft and DiGiCo.


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## Evans Poulos (Jan 4, 2016)

Thanks for all your time. I'm fairly proficient on pc and utterly ignorant on Mac. So I'm sure there will be more questions in the coming weeks. 
If you don't mind, I'll post a shopping list for comment later in the week.


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## Thetechmanmac (Jan 4, 2016)

If you really need to be able to run windows, I would look into parallels desktop. It's around $80 for the year. AND they have a free trial!!! You can use it at the same time as you are running OSX, just like you would run any other program. I use it all the time for windows only offline editors when I need to make changes. Bootcamp can be a little bit of a hassle because you have to shut down, boot up in wondows, the vce versa to get back to mac. Plus, if you have odd network settings parallels takes network right from OSX, so you don't have to configure in windows. Don't forget (if you decide to do bootcamp or parallels) that you still have to buy a windows license (if you don't already have a disc).


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## Evans Poulos (Jan 5, 2016)

So isn't parallels basically the reverse of running osx in VMware?


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## Thetechmanmac (Jan 5, 2016)

Exactly, except It's going to be way more stable.


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## Evans Poulos (Jan 11, 2016)

So I'm looking at this.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=2TS-0008-00036

Adding generic usb kb and mouse. generic monitor (maybe 2 screens?)

Something along this line to output to our projector and be able to upgrade the projector when the time comes.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...2400548&cm_re=mac_mini-_-12-400-548-_-Product

Add on optical drive - http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ..._re=mac_superdrive-_-9SIA1PU0T22524-_-Product

Looking at Qlab, and I can't decide if I should pop for the pro video license or not. Currently the features we use are audio out linked to midi control of the light desk. would like the ability to add projections to the mix without a separate operator. So that would require the Basic Video License AND the Basic Audio License? I find the chart a bit confusing but it may simply be that I've only had three cups of coffee today so far!


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## Thetechmanmac (Jan 11, 2016)

If you think you may need the video capabilities in the future and have the budget to get the video license, get it.


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## rhedgehog (Jan 12, 2016)

It really depends on what exactly you'll be doing. Despite MIDI cues being listed as only available on the basic audio or above licenses, I have found that the free version of QLab 3 will allow you to use MIDI cues without any issues.
The pro bundle only saves you $50 over buying the Pro Audio and Pro Video Licenses separately, so if it were me, I wouldn't pull the trigger on it. 
Depending on how you run your projections, even the free version might be enough. For example, if you only ever need to play back pre-generated video files on a single projector, you could get away without buying a video license.

The great thing about QLab is that you can always add the licenses later, so you don't necessarily have to decide right now if you're guessing on your future needs. Figure 53 also gives you the ability to rent licenses for a small fee/day, so if you might occasionally need some of the more advanced video features, you could just rent them. Qlab has a demo mode that will unlock all of the features for a limited time, so you could play around with it once you're set up before you decide to buy anything, too.


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## Evans Poulos (Jan 13, 2016)

Quick Question on the Mac Mini purchase. Have any of you got an opinion whether I should spring for the fusion drive? bearing in mind that i do very limited projections and (so far) only a single sound track for shows at this time.
I'm leaning towards not spending the extra 150 some odd dollars on this option.


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## rhedgehog (Jan 13, 2016)

We run ours off of a mechanical hard drive, and haven't had any issues with multiple sound files and simple projections being run simultaneously.
Also, you always have the option of upgrading the hard drive to a SSD in the future, should you so desire. Right now you can get a good 500GB SSD for around $150, and those prices should continue to drop with time.


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## JJBerman (Jan 14, 2016)

Last I checked the Qlab site, they expressly stated to not use a fusion drive.


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## ratthepoodle (Jan 14, 2016)

I would recommend just using a mechanical hard drive. I have used regular old hard drives and have had no problem. To confirm what Joe said above, the Figure 53 website says something along the lines of its not recommended because data can be shuffled between the two drives during a show and mess stuff up during a show.


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## Evans Poulos (Jan 15, 2016)

Ok. Scratched the fusion drive!
Ordered the mini and a generic I7 based pc from IT this morning!


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## Mark Harris (Mar 9, 2016)

sk8rsdad said:


> Unless something has changed, Apple does not license their operating system on any hardware other than Apple so there's no legal way to put OS X on a Windows machine.


Nothing's changed at Apple, but you could try running Darwin on a PC... yeah, maybe not for mission critical stuff ;-)


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## NickVon (Mar 9, 2016)

Evans Poulos said:


> So I'm looking at this.
> 
> Looking at Qlab, and I can't decide if I should pop for the pro video license or not. Currently the features we use are audio out linked to midi control of the light desk. would like the ability to add projections to the mix without a separate operator. So that would require the Basic Video License AND the Basic Audio License? I find the chart a bit confusing but it may simply be that I've only had three cups of coffee today so far!



If you'll ever want to fade in/out video or static JPEGS. It's a must. If that level of fine design control is not needed or you have the time and software to to tern things like static images into short movies with built in fades then don't worry about it. But just the ability to fade in/out opacity for smooth transitions I find a must even with 95% of time using a single video output.


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## Evans Poulos (Mar 16, 2016)

Well I haven't been back to this for a while. Thought I just touch base and let everybody know that the Mac Mini is installed. USB midi connection is working great! Q lab with basic video is working great! Headphone jack sucks eggs...
Used it for SFX play back this weekend and programming a show on it next week.


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## robartsd (Mar 17, 2016)

sk8rsdad said:


> Unless something has changed, Apple does not license their operating system on any hardware other than Apple so there's no legal way to put OS X on a Windows machine.


The language in the license says "Apple labeled computer." Some in the OSX86 (hackintosh) community considered their machines "Apple labeled" if they put the decals from the OS X retail box on the case of their machine. But seriously if you want to run OS X in a production environment, get Apple hardware. Hackintosh might be fun for a hobby computer, but not worth the headaches when something goes wrong at the worst time.


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