# Trouble with older crew members



## MEGal (Oct 6, 2012)

Hi Controlbooth!

I was recently referred to this forum by a friend. Seems like a wonderful resource. 

I was wondering if you all have some advice for a problem I've been having. I am a fairly young lighting director who freelances as well as works part time at a couple of companies. At most places I started at the bottom and quickly moved up when the bosses realized I am quite competent at designing as well as tech work. At one I'm exclusively a lighting designer, at the others I work as a designer/programmer/master electrician/crew chief and occasionally electrician depending on the day. At one of the companies and a couple of the places I freelance there's major respect issues amongst older crew members (many of them are at least twice my age). Several of them will not listen or make insulting comments in front of the producers/artists when I am designing. Or just stand there and waste half an hour telling (turns into arguing) me how I'm doing it all wrong/stupidly and they have so much more experience. I've also had them flat out refuse to do what I say because they don't want to. At another place I freelance as a lighting director, male technicians will act like I cannot do anything remotely physical (while I appreciate a nice gentleman, the macho guy attitude is not helpful when I'm trying to get a show up and it's slowing us down). They also have decided not to "let" me do anything remotely dangerous. I am the one responsible for the show being safe, therefore I am going to either do or check all safety-critical things. So this generally results in a 5 minute argument culminating in me threatening to get them sent home if they don't get out of my way.


----------



## derekleffew (Oct 6, 2012)

I want to see how MrsFooter, abbyt, and kiwitechgirl, _et al_ respond before I offer my thoughts.


----------



## ruinexplorer (Oct 6, 2012)

Welcome to the Booth. 

There are a few things to discuss here. Respect is earned. If you demand it, you may be showing a sign of weakness and will make earning that respect more difficult. The older techs are testing your mettle and you will need some moxy before they will give you the benefit of the doubt. Even if you have all the skills which you state and happen to be some kind of prodigy, there are dozens others of your age who will feel the same about their skills and have proven otherwise. What you need to do is save your temper. Getting in an arguement will not further your efforts. Even if they disagree with your choices, it would not be detrimental for you to listen to what they have to say. If they have been in the business awhile, there is a good possibility that you will still learn something (even if you still do it your way). 

Don't ever threaten. That shows weakness. If you are having difficulty with a crew member, confront them and state that you are open to suggestions, but this is your show. If they don't feel like following your direction, immediately speak with their supervisor. As you said, you don't have the time to waste. However, you better have evidence of their misconduct or you will have just made things worse for yourself. 

You will have to prove yourself time and again until you are known and respected. It's a fact of life. This is not a bad thing, but how you handle the situation can be. 

If they don't let you do things dangerous, there's nothing wrong with that either. With your age, there's a good possibility that you have not received proper training in many of the hazards in the industry. There are many older and more experienced technicians who also haven't received proper training. Unfortuneately, they probably will have shared their "knowledge" with younger techs who will continue with unsafe practices.


----------



## kiwitechgirl (Oct 6, 2012)

ruinexplorer said:


> Don't ever threaten. That shows weakness. If you are having difficulty with a crew member, confront them and state that you are open to suggestions, but this is your show. If they don't feel like following your direction, immediately speak with their supervisor. As you said, you don't have the time to waste. However, you better have evidence of their misconduct or you will have just made things worse for yourself.



This^^^. I suspect that even if you were male, you'd probably still have this issue - maybe not quite to the same extent, but you'd still get it.

The sexism is another story altogether. While I was at drama school I spent a summer working in a rental shop; I was the only female working there. It was very interesting to see how the guys reacted to me; some treated me no differently to my two male classmates who were also working there, some had major issues with a girl coming into their domain. I don't have a problem with being asked "are you OK with that?" but I do object to a guy coming in and trying to take over whatever it was I'm doing because he thinks I'm not strong enough. I found that saying "thanks, but I'm good with this. If I need a hand, I'll ask" enough times generally got the message through. The trick is to know your limits and work to them (which I'm sure you do) - for example, I'm not very tall (OK, I'm short!) and people know that I'll ask for assistance if I can't reach something - and I'm also not afraid to let the person flying the truss in to bring it in another foot or so so that I can actually hang lights on it! I think you need to establish a knowledge of what you are capable of; try not to make it a major issue, as best you can, but just go about it normally. It may take some time, but you should eventually get there. It may be worth approaching a production manager (or whoever it is that has hired you) and letting them know about the issues - but I'd avoid asking them to speak to the guys who are being difficult unless you have no other options. If you keep on keeping on, you should eventually get there - persistence is key.


----------



## MrsFooter (Oct 6, 2012)

Welcome to CB, MEGal, and also welcome to my life. I'm a 26 year old Lighting Director at a roadhouse theatre who also freelances in the area. And boy, do some of your problems sound familiar. I'm going to tackle them one at a time, because that's how my brain works.


MEGal said:


> Several of them will not listen or make insulting comments in front of the producers/artists when I am designing.



Here's a little story for you. I once had a road LD get into a fight with me because I was holding him to the advance and he called me (among other things) a see-you-next-Tuesday. He was escorted off the premises by state police. The end.

If someone is standing on deck insulting you, this is something you need to go to your Production Manager (or whomever is directly above you) with. It doesn't matter if the beef they have with you is because you're young or a woman or they don't like your pants, no one should have to put up with that. Tell your superior that it's unproductive, it's unprofessional, and it's making you uncomfortable; if they don't back you up or take action to put an end to that behavior, then that's not the kind of place you want to be working and get the hell out of there.


MEGal said:


> Or just stand there and waste half an hour telling (turns into arguing) me how I'm doing it all wrong/stupidly and they have so much more experience.



This, sadly, is one I have to deal with a lot at the moment. If they're being loud and aggressive about it, see above. But if they're being all passive-aggressive about it and hiding it under a fake smile, I've found the best way to deal with it is to smile back and say something along the lines of, "That would also work but today we're going to do it this way." Then you stick to your guns. This, of course, can bite one in the ass when your way doesn't work and you have to end up doing it their way in the end, and then some humility is in order. But don't let their insecurity (because really, that's all these little temper tantrums are about) trick you into thinking that you don't know what you're doing. You do.


MEGal said:


> I've also had them flat out refuse to do what I say because they don't want to.



People in our space who purposely drag their feet or refuse to do something when asked get fired. Never ever ever forget that time = money. At the end of the day, this is a business and people are trying to make money here. You have a job that needs to get done, and if they won't do it there are plenty of us out of work who'd be glad to step in. Don't treat it like a matter of age or gender because it's not, this is a matter of an employee not doing their job. Don't go to your Production Manager saying, "Crusty won't do what I say because I'm a girl!" go to them and say, "Crusty isn't doing his job. I need someone who will."


MEGal said:


> At another place I freelance as a lighting director, male technicians will act like I cannot do anything remotely physical (while I appreciate a nice gentleman, the macho guy attitude is not helpful when I'm trying to get a show up and it's slowing us down).



Ah, yes. If I had a nickle for every time a dude's tried to take a road case or a box from me during the in. Know what solves that problem? Big ol' grin, "Thanks, but I've got it," and keep walking. That usually puts an end to that one. Never had a guy try it twice and by the out they're asking me to help them flip wheels to the sky. If anything, the confidence within my response usually makes them look like an idiot for even asking.


MEGal said:


> They also have decided not to "let" me do anything remotely dangerous. I am the one responsible for the show being safe, therefore I am going to either do or check all safety-critical things. So this generally results in a 5 minute argument culminating in me threatening to get them sent home if they don't get out of my way.



I'm not really sure what you're referring to when you talk about these "dangerous" safety-critical things, but let's assume you're talking about throwing weight or going up in the genie. What are they going to do, stop you? Unless they physically put their hands on you (which is NEVER okay and should be reported to a superior immediately they can't stop you from doing much of anything. Here's the thing, girl, you're the Lighting Director, so act like it. Don't discuss it, don't spend five minutes arguing with them, don't spend thirty seconds arguing with them. Shoulders back, strong voice, and do what needs to be done. Don't make a thing out of it, just do it. Like I said, what are they going to do to stop you?

Final thoughts. Being a woman in this industry ain't easy, but there are more and more of us out there everyday, and more and more of us in crew head positions. In many places, it's practically normal. It sounds like in both cases these guys are treating your age and gender like a handicap, and it kinda sounds like you're letting them treat it like a handicap. (From an outsider's perspective.) It's not. You're not a young woman LD, you're an LD, and while they certainly need to treat you like any other LD you need to act like any other LD. Don't let them put you on the defensive, don't argue with them, don't even discuss it. You don't have to defend yourself; your job title is all the defense you need. Just go in with your head high and your eyes forward and do your job. If they fight you or keep you from doing your job, it's not because you're a woman; it's because they're a crap employee. Let the problem be theirs.

We can do it!


----------



## MEGal (Oct 6, 2012)

ruinexplorer said:


> Welcome to the Booth.
> 
> There are a few things to discuss here. Respect is earned. If you demand it, you may be showing a sign of weakness and will make earning that respect more difficult. The older techs are testing your mettle and you will need some moxy before they will give you the benefit of the doubt. Even if you have all the skills which you state and happen to be some kind of prodigy, there are dozens others of your age who will feel the same about their skills and have proven otherwise. What you need to do is save your temper. Getting in an arguement will not further your efforts. Even if they disagree with your choices, it would not be detrimental for you to listen to what they have to say. If they have been in the business awhile, there is a good possibility that you will still learn something (even if you still do it your way).



Oh, I wholeheartedly agree that ideas are good. I'm a firm believer in everyone's ideas should be considered. Unless we are in a major time crunch I'm always willing to entertain alternative methods. However on many of the shows it's my head on the line for how the show looks, so if I believe one way is the better way that's my call and my responsibility. Well Bob said we should do _____ isn't going to cut it with the boss when Bob is a shop hand who got sent on the gig as an electrician and I am the freelance designer they hired.


ruinexplorer said:


> Don't ever threaten. That shows weakness. If you are having difficulty with a crew member, confront them and state that you are open to suggestions, but this is your show. If they don't feel like following your direction, immediately speak with their supervisor. As you said, you don't have the time to waste. However, you better have evidence of their misconduct or you will have just made things worse for yourself.



Not always, but many times I am the senior person on site. In those cases it's pretty much expected that I handle issues unless it gets to the point of sending someone home which needs approval of the owner of the company.


ruinexplorer said:


> You will have to prove yourself time and again until you are known and respected. It's a fact of life. This is not a bad thing, but how you handle the situation can be.
> 
> If they don't let you do things dangerous, there's nothing wrong with that either. With your age, there's a good possibility that you have not received proper training in many of the hazards in the industry. There are many older and more experienced technicians who also haven't received proper training. Unfortuneately, they probably will have shared their "knowledge" with younger techs who will continue with unsafe practices.



Again it's my responsibility for the show and the safety of the crew. I am also a firm believer in never asking anyone under you to do something you are not willing to do. If someone has to spot one of my rigs being flown out, it's going to be me in most cases. Not because I think it's cool or anything but because I am the person there responsible for it. I am responsible for the crew under me, they are not responsible for me, though I'd hope they have my back. If there is an expert there in something I am happy to let them do something they have more experience in in most cases. However being a 50 year old man does not in and of itself make one more qualified to do a given task. I am qualified to do a bare wire tie in, however my father/uncle/grandfather is not, on the other hand I know a 17 year old friend's son that is.


----------



## MEGal (Oct 6, 2012)

MrsFooter said:


> This, sadly, is one I have to deal with a lot at the moment. If they're being loud and aggressive about it, see above. But if they're being all passive-aggressive about it and hiding it under a fake smile, I've found the best way to deal with it is to smile back and say something along the lines of, "That would also work but today we're going to do it this way." Then you stick to your guns. This, of course, can bite one in the ass when your way doesn't work and you have to end up doing it their way in the end, and then some humility is in order. But don't let their insecurity (because really, that's all these little temper tantrums are about) trick you into thinking that you don't know what you're doing. You do.



It's typically the passive aggressive type. As they would get fired if they did say anything too bad loudly enough for witnesses. There is one guy who gets a bit loud, but is smart enough to only do it when I wouldn't have any witnesses and hence wouldn't go anywhere.



MrsFooter said:


> People in our space who purposely drag their feet or refuse to do something when asked get fired. Never ever ever forget that time = money. At the end of the day, this is a business and people are trying to make money here. You have a job that needs to get done, and if they won't do it there are plenty of us out of work who'd be glad to step in. Don't treat it like a matter of age or gender because it's not, this is a matter of an employee not doing their job. Don't go to your Production Manager saying, "Crusty won't do what I say because I'm a girl!" go to them and say, "Crusty isn't doing his job. I need someone who will."



Good point. I have had a lot of that. Situations where for inexplicable reasons progress only takes place when I stand over a given person's shoulder, which if I have 4 crew means I've only got the work of one taking place!





MrsFooter said:


> I'm not really sure what you're referring to when you talk about these "dangerous" safety-critical things, but let's assume you're talking about throwing weight or going up in the genie. What are they going to do, stop you? Unless they physically put their hands on you (which is NEVER okay and should be reported to a superior immediately they can't stop you from doing much of anything. Here's the thing, girl, you're the Lighting Director, so act like it. Don't discuss it, don't spend five minutes arguing with them, don't spend thirty seconds arguing with them. Shoulders back, strong voice, and do what needs to be done. Don't make a thing out of it, just do it. Like I said, what are they going to do to stop you?



I meant to say dangerous or safety critical. Mostly things like going up in a lift, some rigging stuff (spotting/calling a rig), climbing ladders, tie ins, ect. I've had guys get in the lift and refuse to get out so I can do it, stand in the way of a ladder, grab tails and refuse to give them to me. 


MrsFooter said:


> Final thoughts. Being a woman in this industry ain't easy, but there are more and more of us out there everyday, and more and more of us in crew head positions. In many places, it's practically normal. It sounds like in both cases these guys are treating your age and gender like a handicap, and it kinda sounds like you're letting them treat it like a handicap. (From an outsider's perspective.) It's not. You're not a young woman LD, you're an LD, and while they certainly need to treat you like any other LD you need to act like any other LD. Don't let them put you on the defensive, don't argue with them, don't even discuss it. You don't have to defend yourself; your job title is all the defense you need. Just go in with your head high and your eyes forward and do your job. If they fight you or keep you from doing your job, it's not because you're a woman; it's because they're a crap employee. Let the problem be theirs.
> 
> We can do it!



Funny thing too is I typically find the better the crews I'm working with the less of an issue. On rare occasions I've ended up working on the crew for people who usually are on my crew, and guess what, I respect their decisions. Likewise I've ended up with some much better LDs than myself on my crew on occasion and they've usually respected my decisions and been polite about recommendations (I'm always happy to listen to polite suggestions).


----------



## LightStud (Oct 6, 2012)

MEGal said:


> I am qualified to do a bare wire tie in, however my father/uncle/grandfather is not, on the other hand I know a 17 year old friend's son that is.


Is that what it says on your (or his) ETCP card? 
Seriously, an ETCP-certification could help change some people's perceptions of your skills and qualifications.

You have two strikes against you, your age and your gender. Time will cure the former, and possibly the latter as well.


MEGal said:


> However being a 50 year old man does not in and of itself make one more qualified to do a given task.


Do you do much work with IATSE crews? Look at it from the opposite prospective: He got into the business because of his father, grandfather, uncle. He's been hanging lights for the past thirty years, never bothering or having to learn what the lights actually DO, or how to read a plot, or how to run a console. The young-uns won't listen to him when he tells them to coil the cable on the floor standing upright, that half-bending over will ruin eventually ruin their back. Kids today wouldn't know a stage brace from a back brace. Along comes this uppity, know-it-all, feMALE, barking orders like she's the queen of sheba. Then during the show, she's in the booth pushing buttons while he's backstage busting his hump pushing around heavy scenery. All he's ever going to be is a neckdown, a box pusher. Technology has passed him by, there's not a lot of calls for piano board operators these days.
"Listen here, girlie-girl, I've been in this business for longer than you've been alive, so don't try and tell me what to do."

Some other actual quotes to help you prepare your retorts:
"Such a big box for such a little girl."

"Don't you have some gel to cut, missy?"

"Women don't belong in lighting or scenery. They should stay in the costume shop."

"All of the best lighting designers are gay. All of the female lighting designers are rhymes-with-witches."

"Whether or not you're the next Tharon Musser remains to be seen."


----------



## jstroming (Oct 6, 2012)

Funny, I have never had issues with local crews disrespecting me bcause of age. I am 26 years old. Granted, I am usually hired directly by the producer and as such can boot someone from the call if necessary (as I have done several times, most recently 2 weeks ago).

I actually find that older stagehands and production people respect me MORE than younger ones. I grew up in NYC and was running union crews at Radio City at 20 yrs old (I used to be a video director). I've never had a problem with Local 1 crews being blatantly disrepectful because of my age. Sometimes disrespectful in general (HAHA) but not where I thought it was because of my age. In fact I generally find them more intrigued about the new technology and impressed by my age then pissed about it. With younger crew, I find that they think they have a better way of doing everything.

I agree with all the above posters about going to your immediate superior. If he doesn't go to bat for you, then inform him the situation is bad enough that it's serious enough you'd leave (if it is). If he still doesnt go to bat for you, then quit.


----------



## SteveB (Oct 6, 2012)

I always liked the line "Well, I'm in charge, so we can either do it my way now, or we can do it my way later, when I'm REALLY PISSED OFF"


----------



## chausman (Oct 7, 2012)

"We can do this my way, or my way mad"


----------



## DrPinto (Oct 7, 2012)

chausman said:


> "We can do this my way, or my way mad"



I am so going to use that...


----------



## gafftaper (Oct 7, 2012)

Either you are in charge or you are not. Nothing is going to change until Crusty is told to knock it off and respect you or find work elsewhere. I say go have a private conversation with the production manager before you get in the situation. Give specific examples of what Crusty is doing wrong. The production manager will either back your play and help you deal with Crusty or leave you hanging alone. If the P. M. backs, you life with Crusty will improve. If the P. M. won't back you, the problem is institutionalized and it may be best to move on... or be ready to dig in for a big fight.

A few more general thoughts. Remember that there are some well meaning chivalrous guys who don't mean you any disrespect, they are just trying to treat you the way their Momma taught them to treat a lady. An occasional,"Thanks but I've got it . I'll let you know if I need anything. " should be all you need with guys who mean well. 

If you feel the problem is more age than gender, I would make it a point to listen to the old way of doing things when you can. Remember that in the same way that you feel your new ways are being threatened by them, they feel their old ways are being threatened by you. Find common ground by asking them to contribute when it's feasible. Ask for stories about the past when you can. A young person who doesn't know it all, takes the time to listen to the old ways, and uses them when possible will earn respect from Crusty and friends.


----------



## MPowers (Oct 8, 2012)

gafftaper said:


> ................ Remember that there are some well meaning chivalrous guys who don't mean you any disrespect, they are just trying to treat eir olyou the way their Momma taught them to treat a lady. An occasional,"Thanks but I've got it . I'll let you know if I need anything. " should be all you need with guys who mean well.
> .....



Yeah Verily, gafftaper doth speak with wisdom and truth! I was raised in a far different world. When I was growing up, a man's role in life and society was to protect and take care of the women in his world, and that is what we were strongly taught. Once when I was very young, I asked my momma why I had to carry things for the girls. Her answer didn't make a lot of since then but I have learned her little joke had a grain of truth. She said "Honey, if God had meant for girls to lift heavy things, she would have given you boys the brains." 

Of course, what really hurt was the first time a young lady opened a door..... for me.....and I realized she had done it as a courtesy to her elder. ooooooooH!

Now I like to think that I am a strong believer in equality, both to succeed and to fail. Some things took a while to comfortably live with. For example, my co-worker in sales and installation is a young lady 1/3 my age and 6" taller. I have no qualms (now) about asking her to lift heavy items for me (but it really hurt the first time!). She's younger, stronger and far more agile. I like to think we work well together. I know how a dimmer bank works "electrical". she knows how it works "electronically". I can service and fix dimmers, lights, and consoles made from 1930 to 1980. She can service and make movers and LED's dance and sing with the new consoles (most of which I have to ask her how to get the start up menu to appear!). I understand mechanical things, motors, labor and rigging. She can write up a bid faster, better and keep track of where we are on a project. I make it happen in the field.

Back to the point. What gafftaper said, some of the guys don't mean to be condescending or sexist, They just haven't quite overcome their up-bringing. Then, unfortunately, there those who are truly biased or feel threatened by a female presence. I'm the wrong gender and age to offer much help with the latter except to try and let you know that not all of us are "THEM".


----------



## 030366 (Oct 28, 2012)

I just took over the lighting department at a particular house, and I definitely ran into this problem on my first couple of calls. Here's what to do:

1) Do _*not *_overthink the issue.
2) Make a plan.
3) Stick to it.

In my case, I found that the workers' disrespect didn't end up stemming from sexism or age/school of thought issues. It stemmed from the fact that when they raised opposition, I actually cared enough to stop and listen. In their eyes, that looks like you're not sure of yourself. So remember that yes, while they do have decades of experience and lots of war stories I'm sure they love to share, YOU have the job of coordinating them. Make a plan, stick to it. Own your job. While they might be irritable, I promise you that they DO recognize that you're in charge. And if they don't, tell the PM you don't want them on your crew anymore.


----------



## museav (Oct 29, 2012)

030366 said:


> I just took over the lighting department at a particular house, and I definitely ran into this problem on my first couple of calls. Here's what to do:
> 
> 1) Do _*not *_overthink the issue.
> 2) Make a plan.
> ...


There are certain roles that should be assigned respect until proven otherwise (note I said "role", which can be different than respecting the indvidual). And at times one may have to be firm and decisive, no argument there. I also agree with having a plan and following it. However, there are different ways to do be decisive and implement a plan and I'm not sure that not caring about your co-workers and refusing to listen to them is necessarily a good approach. Or that being open to the ideas and suggestions of others is a sign of weakness, in fact instead of reflecting strength that to me can reflect someone who is afraid they won't be able to earn or keep your respect.

If the people working for you know you and act as was described by the OP then I believe that can be quite different thanif it is people who don't know you, where you are the 'outsider', etc. With people that don't know you you need to be firm and reflect the belief that you are in charge and capable of the job, but if you walk in with a chip on your shoulder, start the relationship with threats and demands, don't recognize others' qualifications and abilities, demand respect without giving it and so on then you may be as much at fault as anyone for any resulting friction.

As long as it is valid and not something you have simply assumed, I understand and respect feeling responsible for everything. However, might some of the related attitude and actions noted result from being perceived as not trusting or respecting others' abilities and experience? If you are responsible for managing things then might it be better to find some way to delegate and verify where possible rather than doing it all yourself? To get to know and try to benefit from the skills and experience of those around you?

How about instead of "do this or else" you act as though following your direction is a foregone conclusion without having to make threats? Telling someone they are failing to meet the high expectations you had of them can often be a better motivator than saying they are working down to your low expectations.

One of the quickest ways to lose my respect and support is to demand my respect without being willing to earn it or give it in return. I interpret someone saying "You will respect me" as their saying "I'm demanding your respect because I don't think I'm capable of earning it."


FWIW, my Mother would stop and stand at doors until I opened them for her and I would get chastised if I did not offer to help a lady with carrying groceries, boxes, etc. She still does that to this day. It was a sign of respect rather than any assumption of weakness or inability. The inverse was that a simple, polite "thank you" or "thank you but I have it" was the accepted recognition of that respect. So you might want to think about whether some situations might be respect being offered and whether the response offered is as respectful.


----------



## mstaylor (Oct 29, 2012)

Running a crew is a difficult thing to do for anybody. When you are young you have a strike against you, then being female you may have a strike against you. Learning to delegate is tough but necessary, I am a 53 yr old male that started running crews professionally at about 22 and I still don't delegate certain tasks. The thing to remember is sometimes the crusty old hand might actually have a good suggestion. Blatant disrespect, refusing to do as told or refusing to allow you to do your job, should be immediate dismissal. Guys trying to take things away from you is upbringing as noted. Simply tell you are good and carry on. 
I never understood guys automatically dismissing somebody on age, sex or looks. I prefer to work and decide if the person has a clue or not. I have worked under many very good female designers and TDs. I have worked some idiots, but the same goes for males, good techs are good techs and idiots are idiots. 
You are ultimately responsible for the show so it has to done to your standard. However as a professional it is also imperative that you progress in your learning. When you find yourself believing you know it all and don't have to learn anything else, quit. I have seen it many times, good techs get to a point and never realize their potential because they quit learning. Sorry for being longwinded and preachy but you have been good advice but it is impportant to remember it may not be all one sided.


----------



## 030366 (Oct 29, 2012)

museav said:


> I'm not sure that not caring about your co-workers and refusing to listen to them is necessarily a good approach. Or that being open to the ideas and suggestions of others is a sign of weakness, in fact instead of reflecting strength that to me can reflect someone who is afraid they won't be able to earn or keep your respect.



I agree wholeheartedly with this. It happens to be the situation I'm in at the moment, though, so just a warning: apparently that kind of attitude _can _happen in some techies or crews. I find it unfortunate, but it is the case that something like "Hey so-and-so, have you found in your experience that hanging from a sidearm in this situation makes the light easier to focus?" can turn into "She asked so-and-so how to hang a light! She has no idea what she's doing!!".

I think it's a really good thing to turn to your crew for their expertise. No one person can know everything about every situation all the time. But lately I've found that some people don't respect that attitude at all. 

If it helps, a friend of mine always says this: It's not your job to be the best lighting tech there. It's your job to organize a crew with all the skills necessary to do the job.

Don't let them intimidate you.


museav said:


> How about instead of "do this or else" you act as though following your direction is a foregone conclusion without having to make threats?



Yes.


----------



## mstaylor (Oct 30, 2012)

I was doing a show where I was the advance rigger. The ME told a hand how he wanted a loom rolled and put in a case. The hand told him that he didn't his suggestions, he knew what he was doing. The ME told him it wasn't a suggestion, it was an instruction. He sent him to the steward to clock out. Direct insubordination needs to be dealt with immediately, normal questioning has to be done judiciously. I tell my guys that the show does something that they disagree with, do it anyway. It's their gear and it can be done anyway they want. Unless it is unsafe then come to me and I will handle it.


----------



## StNic54 (Oct 30, 2012)

Great thread, and a very important subject for the younger readers. I can very clearly see where you are coming from (well, from a guy's perspective), and we've all been through those times where the older male crew members treat you poorly because you are young, (you are female!), and most importantly, they don't know you. Respect is earned, but often-times this is a very male-dominated industry, and for many women respect will never be earned simply because of a man's objectivity of women. You have to be firm, no matter the situation, and know all the chains of command. Ultimately, your show is a paycheck to the crew, and money talks, so getting sent home (or worse, a labor company losing a contract altogether) is the key to wrangling a crew. Also remember that many local guys will do the least work possible, put up the biggest fight at the first sign of a real challenge, and leave things undone when you least expect it.

To play devil's advocate just a bit, I worked for a company where our boss put our only female employee on a show striking trees and fixtures at midnight, in the rain, loading a truck all by herself. His mentality was that all his employees should be on the same level. She didn't weigh more than 105 on a good day, and after I learned about her plight, I approached my boss simply because it was unfair of him to have these expectations. He was treating her like one of the guys, whereas he should have had two people on the call at least, regardless of sex. My rationale to him was this: he never expected me to lift 100 lbs 12 times in a day, so why make our only female employee lift 50lbs (half her weight) 12 times, along with the pipes, the fixtures, and the rain factor. When she left our company the following years, she had back problems to the extent of herniated discs and damaged vertebrae due to overexertion and constant lifting. The crux of this example is that many guys will 'take over', but it's ok to be firm about your abilities. Just be careful that you don't let anyone put too much on you, and then treat you poorly when you need help - always be clear about work safety.

Hang in there, keep networking, and the more people know you and how good you are at what you do, the easier it will be.


----------



## bdkdesigns (Oct 30, 2012)

The worst comment when walking into a new position: "That's not the way that we used to do it!"

One of the best things I've heard is this: You will always walk into a position knowing something that the other person doesn't know, and they will always know something that you don't know. What we do is highly experimental and ever changing. If I want a light in a certain position for my design, it better end up there because I need it there. Saying it can't be there because you don't agree with the decision isn't an option if you aren't a designer. However, saying that you can't put it there because that box seat has been walled off for a new storage location and was never updated on the plans and you don't have a ladder tall enough to rig something up is something to be discussed. It is a two way street if something isn't physically possible.

Sometimes there are little intricacies with the space that we know best and can pass on to those coming in. Come on, we all know that we don't have perfect spaces. The key is passing on that info respectfully. This may be a pill that is too hard to swallow for other individuals who don't know tact. Likewise for the new person coming in. Disrespect on either side of the road won't solve the issue. Don't disrespect them and don't let them disrespect yourself. However, an individual who is disrespectful will not respond positively to disrespect coming back at them, even if it was them who started it. You can stay firm and keep your ground will maintaining composer. 

On a fun side note, as an educator, I've actually had my chair (who is female) yell at me for letting the females work too and letting them lift lighting instruments to hang them. "There are plenty of men around that can do that work for them" is a direct quote. Long story short, this stereotype doesn't reside in the male population only. At the end of the day though, we all know that stereotypes aren't always true.


----------



## mstaylor (Nov 3, 2012)

As an old dog and somebody that has run tons of crews with show guys, I can attest there is good and bad on both sides of the game. To be honest, I approach a load-in assuming the show people know their jobs. If they didn't they wouldn't, or shouldn't, be on the road. I don't care if they are young or old, male or female, I let them prove to me they don't know their job before I question their methods. Even then I will only refuse to do something if it dangerous or incredibly stupid to do. 
We did a load-in the other day and when we got to the venue there was no power, no elevators and no way to get our lift on the second floor. There was a small personnel elevator half a building away. We decided to do a long push and get most of the stuff on the 2nd floor. Once it was all ready to go up, that elevator broke. We then carried all the small stuff up the stairs, unboxed and carried the contents up the stairs. It was not the show's fault any of the problems happened. However, when they wanted to carry unreasonable things up I said no, we would wait. It was too much chance of breaking something or hurting hands. This was dealt with in a professional manner. 
On the other hand I have seen times where things are asked to be done when it is simply stupid. We were forking trusses, twenty ft sections, up to a 5ft stage when the fork ran out of gas. Instead of taking 5 minutes to change tanks they wanted to push them up a ramp. I told them no and got the fork running. It created a big argument with me refusing to yield. 
Do what you have to do to get the job done but treat you locals like you would like to treated and most of the time it will work out. If they have a bias or personal problem, that needs to be dealt with between you and the steward.


----------



## Dreadpoet (Nov 11, 2012)

I am glad you brought this topic up. I feel that there are multiple issues at play here and most of them can be addressed by you without need of PM (though the PM has a right to know is attitudes are slowing progress down to determine if he/she wants to address it). The issues at play here are
1)	Likely, passive communication that leads to aggressive communication
2)	Gender communication gaps
3)	Social differences and norm gaps (age/gender)
4)	Resistance to change
5)	Lack of understanding…on both parties.
Dealing with “Mars/Venus” communication is tough. Recognize that your male boomer counterparts have been engendered by day 1 to be of assistance to women especially when it comes to physically trying tasks and “dirty” jobs. I caught myself once attempting to aid an effeminate male in taking out trash…not because he was incapable, but because I was trained to assist (it got awkward)…even to the point of helping out a man who just happened to be effeminate. By the same token, I attempted to aid a small, somewhat butch, female with carrying a large wooden A-frame ladder because I was trained that it could not be safely be done by one person…as you can imagine…I was summarily chewed out because she assumed I was helping due to her being female and not that I just saw someone in need of assistance. My suggestion to you on much of this topic is judge social norms then, rather than allow them to undermine you by taking your task, tell them to do the task first.
Next, don’t ask to do…tell in an assertive but polite tone to do things. No longer “could you please…” rather “I need you to….” or even “go do….”. If there is argument from your counterpart…tell them “This isn’t for discussion, I need you to…”. If they continue to be combative tell them “I’m sorry you feel that way” and you then leave. This is where you need to sit with both PM and the party and discuss what actions are to be taken. Don’t allow a black sheep to rule the compound. If you must, find tasks that remove them from the rest of the flock.

Please know that you are already behind as you have already set up you organizational norms by not taking control sooner. I have lead those older and way more experienced and knowledge successfully. It must start by not attempting to be there friend but by being a successful positive (no reason to sound mad) leader, never catching yourself arguing with them, and showing them that though they may not prefer it your way…you expect it that way.


----------



## ejsandstrom (Nov 17, 2012)

Im going to approach this from the opposite side of the question to hopefully give you some incite as to what they MAY be thinking. 

1. I am 36 and work for a 26 year old and with an 18 year old. I have absolutely no problem with the age of the person I am working for. However, I have 15 years of experience in fields that they have never heard of, so when I say "this is the way it should be done",its not because I have an attitude, its because I have tried it other ways and found out it didn't work. Its not out of disrespect but out of wisdom and experience. I have however established an attitude of mutual respect with my bosses and co-workers, to a point that now they ask me what is the best way to do it because I have proven to them I know what I am doing. 

2. Disrespect should never be allowed. There was a time when you could discuss your differences outside. That doesn't work anymore. Now you have to go to your boss and get it worked out in a political way. You need the anointing of your bosses. They need to say "It is her way, she has final say." Until that happens you will continue to have issues. 

3. How long have you worked there? How long have they worked there? I worked with a guy that had been with the company since 1969, and it took years to gain his respect and be treated as an equal. Why? Was he an ass? Maybe, but he had seen the "young buck" come in and try to change things many times in his years. A year or so later that young buck had moved on to a better job and a new buck was there. They may just have a feeling that you are the latest flash in the pan, and if they wait long enough you will be out and they will be on to the next person. Respect should be shown both ways but you need to continue to earn their trust. 

4. I work with a few women and they have learned my personality, I am "that guy", they now wait for me to open the door as I will not go through it before them. If they are bringing packages into the building, I will rush to help them. I carry the boxes up the stairs if need be. Its not because I am some big macho tough guy. It is because That is the way I think things should be. There is a problem if a man cannot take the 2 seconds to walk around the car to open the door for his wife. Its about respect and honor.


----------



## ijvpjr (Dec 29, 2012)

This may or may not apply completely. When I toured, (back in the day) I approached each venue and crew with a "when in Rome do as the Romans". That ment sizing things up quickly. Is this a union house, college, volenteer, or independant non union venue. How is the house crew structured? Is there just one over all crew chief and or does each dept. have it's own dept. head and crew. After making these determinations, I ask myself how a person in my given position fits in to the given crew or venue structurer. A good ice breaker is having your TD or PM at the very beginning of the first day of the project or load in calling every one on the stage crew together and introduce the company crew heads to the local crew heads and crew and then break off into departments. Reintroduce yourself to your crew and get them to give you their names. Next give an overview of the days work and it's simplicty, that the thinking has been done, and that the 2 most important things involved in the work is saftey and everyone enjoying themself. I find it can be best to leave out my title or position. Too many people get hung up on titles. The fact that you have the information on what needs to be done is title enough. Some crews hear "designer" and don't feel they should respond to those "artistic" types. The old school guys give their loyalty to road heads or crew chiefs. That's just the way it is. Trust me. Save yourself. If your running a crew leave the lighting designer out of it. If you are confronted with a way of doing something different than you want, it's always most productive to hear it out and if it isn't going to work for you simply say that's great but "they want it this way". If asked who "they" are, simply say the company. Hell, if it really doesn't matter, again save yourself and let them do it their way. DON'T CHOOSE YOUR BATTLES, CHOOSE NOT TO BATTLE". It's rarely worth it. Just get it done. Always ask yourself "Does it really matter"? Another tatic if there is no crew chief ,delegate someone on the crew to be your second and tell them what you want and how you want it and have them hand out the tasks or projects you need done. Lastly as a head or chief if your involved in so much of the work going on who's watching to see if things are going well and you should be lining up the gear for the next project for when someone finishes their currant project. You need to be 1 or 2 steps ahead of what's going on. And don't be so quick to think it has anything to do with your being a women, a minority, your faith or lack of, or sexual preference. What it is most likely there is a given way of running a crew depend on your Roman determinations I mentioned at the beginning of this thread. I will stand corrected, however there is no school, book, or course, in how to run a crew. The only way to develop that SKILL is by being just a crew member and observation over much time. There are people who are great seconds and never want the head or chief job. And there are chiefs or heads that have no business running a crew. Your young and it's unlikely you have had alot of experience studying how to run a crew and get the most out of what you have to work with. Older crew members can size up leadership skills quite quickly. They also have there ways of messing with folks who are unaware of their lack of ability in a given area. You may be the best tech ever, but can't get a crew to take a coffee break. And anytime someone wants to push a box or carry something for you say thank you and let them. For some it's a way of sucking up. If your around as long as "older crew members" there will come a day you wish someone would push that box for you.


----------



## ijvpjr (Dec 29, 2012)

Oh ya, this is my personal feeling on the subject of any issue that arises in a department you are in charge of. NO MATTER WHAT COMES UP IN YOUR DEPARTMENT REGARDING CREW ISSUES,YOU AREN'T WORTH A SQUAT IF YOU AS A CREW CHIEF HAVE TO GO OUTSIDE OF YOUR DEPARTMENT TO RESOLVE IT. There may be an exception to this, I just don't know what it could be.


----------



## SteveB (Dec 29, 2012)

ijvpjr said:


> Oh ya, this is my personal feeling on the subject of any issue that arises in a department you are in charge of. NO MATTER WHAT COMES UP IN YOUR DEPARTMENT REGARDING CREW ISSUES,YOU AREN'T WORTH A SQUAT IF YOU AS A CREW CHIEF HAVE TO GO OUTSIDE OF YOUR DEPARTMENT TO RESOLVE IT. There may be an exception to this, I just don't know what it could be.



I can think of three right off:

1) Not all crew chiefs have the right/responsibility to hire/fire. Thus need to go to the production head to get somebody removed or to recommend. 

2) Promptness or lack of. If a Prod. Manager is setting the call times and does all the contacting, then that person needs to deal with folks who are late. If you have an electrician continually running late, as crew chief I am not reprimanding, especially if the issue is with crew members in other departments as well. I report and hope the PM deals with it. Note that there are are scenarios where the PM is not at a call, nor is there an assistant. I (as electrics head) may be the person in charge. I will deal with the issue, but need to report to make sure the PM doesn't hire back if necessary.

3) ALL issues related to sex, racial or age discrimination and/or harassment get reported up the chain of command. I have no choice, it's company policy and I cannot deal with it within my department. No if and/or's or but's with this. The days of "I'll deal with it within my department with a private word" are long gone. It needs, for a myriad of legal reasons, to be dealt with higher up and documented as well.


----------



## ijvpjr (Dec 29, 2012)

Thanks steve, Depending on your point of I grossly overstated or understated that last thread. To be clear, anything that violates local, state, and or federal law must be reported to your PM,Risk Management Dept., Steward or who ever it is you report with the company. The same holds true for me regarding safety issues inside or outside of my department. You are also correct about firing someone. You may be able to hire crew members but terminating them falls to someone in the Production Dept., like a Production Manager, Production Coordinator, or Line Producer. 99.9% of the time it is stated in or start papers that we are hired on a day to day deal, and that you can be terminated at anytime with or without reason. This is to limit the possibility of legal action from someone being let go of fileing a wrongful termination case or court actions along those lines. If no reason for termination exists it really hard to go after a company for any perceived damages. Personally, when reporting any violation verbally, have a person with you who witness the violation with you. And if your the only one who saw or is aware of the violation, still have someone you trust witness your reporting it. And as back up, generate a memo stating the violation, witness(s),time of violation, and time and to who violation was reported. Cc the witness(s) and address it to who you reported the violation to. Witness(s) are important so as to not end up in a he said he said situation. The last thing you want is a defamation of character action against you or the company if wrong doing can't be proved. Again these are just my feelings and approaches and should not be taken as law or the only and or final way of dealing with issues of this nature.I might also be leaving out other issues that would demand outside of your department intervention. Thanks again Steve, I stand corrected!


----------



## SteveB (Dec 29, 2012)

ijvpjr said:


> Thanks steve, Depending on your point of I grossly overstated or understated that last thread. To be clear, anything that violates local, state, and or federal law must be reported to your PM,Risk Management Dept., Steward or who ever it is you report with the company. The same holds true for me regarding safety issues inside or outside of my department. You are also correct about firing someone. You may be able to hire crew members but terminating them falls to someone in the Production Dept., like a Production Manager, Production Coordinator, or Line Producer. 99.9% of the time it is stated in or start papers that we are hired on a day to day deal, and that you can be terminated at anytime with or without reason. This is to limit the possibility of legal action from someone being let go of fileing a wrongful termination case or court actions along those lines. If no reason for termination exists it really hard to go after a company for any perceived damages. Personally, when reporting any violation verbally, have a person with you who witness the violation with you. And if your the only one who saw or is aware of the violation, still have someone you trust witness your reporting it. And as back up, generate a memo stating the violation, witness(s),time of violation, and time and to who violation was reported. Cc the witness(s) and address it to who you reported the violation to. Witness(s) are important so as to not end up in a he said he said situation. The last thing you want is a defamation of character action against you or the company if wrong doing can't be proved. Again these are just my feelings and approaches and should not be taken as law or the only and or final way of dealing with issues of this nature.I might also be leaving out other issues that would demand outside of your department intervention. Thanks again Steve, I stand corrected!



Thanks for mentioning safety.


----------



## lwinters630 (Feb 23, 2013)

Yes, I know this is a late post, but I found this thread interesting. There is so much to be gleaned.

I like to keep a few quotes/thoughts in mind as I work with people:

> It's not what you do, but what you get done.




> People don't care how much you know, until they know how much you care.




> They only respect what you inspect.




> I don't look at it as a pyramid top down management, but inverted. I like to support and maximize their talents.




> My dreams and instructions, their wisdom and expertise that will make this thing fly.




> I know they say it can't be done, but I know you are very experienced, so if you were to do this how could it be done.




> People tend to rise up and meet your expectations. Always expect the best.




> Like a bank. You need to make deposits before you make withdrawals. Praise early and often.



and finally the whole "opening a door" or "can I help you?" thing . . . . . Let them. It is like accepting a compliment, they sincerely meant well and felt good that you allowed them to open the door.


----------



## derekleffew (Feb 23, 2013)

Some great ones, there, *lwinters630*. I'm going to print them out and post them, somewhere. Probably my home office.

I'm curious about this one though: 

> They only respect what you inspect.


Can you elaborate on that one?

Also

> Like a bank. You need to make deposits before you make withdrawals. Praise early and often.


A corollary:

> *Praise in public; discipline in private.*


(I learned that one from my good buddy ship.)


----------



## JohnD (Feb 23, 2013)

One of my favorites is:

"If you want to be respected, you have to be respectable"


----------



## lwinters630 (Feb 23, 2013)

Thanks for the formatting help derekleffew.


derekleffew said:


> I'm curious about this one though: They only respect what you inspect.
> 
> Can you elaborate on that one?



When you review what your team is doing or has done and sincerely praise or critique their work it shows that you are interested in them, respecting how well they use their skills. When critiquing, you can also respect them by letting them know that you can see from what they have done that they take great pride in doing the best possible job . . . . then let them know what needs to be done differently.

By doing this "inspecting" they will respect what they are doing and will try harder to please you by doing it even better.


> Like a bank. You need to make deposits before you make withdrawals. Praise early and often.



If I am constantly trashing someone and not looking for the good, I will bankrupt them emotionally. However if I am always (inspecting) looking for things that they have done right and giving them positive feedback, I am making deposits in their bank. That way when I really have to call them on the tough ones, there is enough still left in the bank.

We all know that productions are tough and why do we do it. Not for the paycheck! Its because we like what we do. When it stops being fun its time to stop, so I like to make it enjoyable in the little ways. Don't get me wrong, when I am in "production mode" everyone knows it, but we all are and hopefully we are all on the same team pulling the oars in the same directions.


----------



## andrewmeythaler (Feb 24, 2013)

As a male high school student I wouldn't know much about the issue, but our teacher told us a story once. He told us about how when he was in college he was hired to do a professional show at a pretty big theater in town. He was only 19 at the time, and most of the union crews chuckled when they saw him walk in. But they were amazed when he started barking orders at them using correct terms and what not. He told me that unless you use the exact names for things most of the older guys in the industry will just laugh at you. But this was like 30 years ago, and he is a man, so if it really is a sexism issue you may want to let your boss know.


----------



## Suzzi (Feb 24, 2013)

Im only in my senior year of collage for lighting design so I can't say much, but I have dealt with a few macho underclassmen guys in my department, and the best advice I got was from two of my professors, one of witch is a female union set designer who also works for ABC and the other a male lighting designer, and it was that I'm going to get it throughout my whole career and the best way to avoid it it to do good work, just smile and do your job well and no can mess with you too much, you just have to keep your cool and get the job done and done well, as well as to keep in mind the you never stop learning. Another one of my professors who is the TD also told me I had more testosterone then the majority of the guys in the department and could beat most of them up, and I'm tall but kinda skinny and bony, he also told me I would have to deal with guys wanting to "do more then just work with me", witch made me laugh, but I have already dealt with that and just keep my own and don't let people get to me and most are surprised when I turn them down in a way that doesn't cause drama, and earns respect.


----------



## lwinters630 (Feb 24, 2013)

> witch is a female



Witch or Which?


----------



## Txtech (Feb 24, 2013)

As a guy, I can definitely say that there's sexism in the theater. In the primary theater I work at and most of the places I've done work, it's an understood rule that if you pull your weight you'll get respect, but trying to demand respect will do exactly the opposite. Since Theatre is so grounded in tradition and teamwork is necessary, you have to do your best to get anywhere with older technicians and be willing to work past anyone who doesn't give their best. It may take time, but if you just work your hardest and know what you're doing, the respect will come.


----------



## ruinexplorer (Feb 25, 2013)

Which or witch, college or collage. While these may be minor issues in the grand scheme of things, they too can affect your career path. See this thread: http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/new-member-board/8599-cb-technical-forum-english-class.html


----------



## Suzzi (Feb 26, 2013)

lwinters630 said:


> Witch or Which?



Which, sorry I was typing really quickly, and was on a break during a dress rehearsal, I'm also not the best at spelling and usually have to proof read everything I write like three times


----------



## lwinters630 (Feb 26, 2013)

Suzzi said:


> Which, sorry I was typing really quickly, and was on a break during a dress rehearsal, I'm also not the best at spelling and usually have to proof read everything I write like three times



I actually pointed it (witch) out as a spoof, a joke, as the form was discussing women, I thought the typo was kinda funny.

I too try to make spell checker my friend, but there are those times when it slips right by.


----------



## Suzzi (Feb 27, 2013)

lwinters630 said:


> I actually pointed it (witch) out as a spoof, a joke, as the form was discussing women, I thought the typo was kinda funny.
> 
> I too try to make spell checker my friend, but there are those times when it slips right by.



haha Actually my professors gave me the call name "Wicked Witch" when we were playing around with old radios.


----------

