# Fire curtain replacement



## np_pyro (Aug 24, 2018)

Greetings, 

I recently took control of a theater that is in need of some updates. One thing that stands out to me is the original fire curtain that has likely never been tested and needs to be reworked. 

The facility was built in 1976. Proscenium opening is about 32'W x 16'H. 

There is a full grid that is walk-able in the loft space. 

The fire curtain is installed on the counterweight system as the first line-set with what appears to be the original hemp purchase line. In a steel channel with wire rope guides. 

There are two release lines, one on either side of the stage with a short piece of steel chained to the wall and ground down on one edge to make a crude cutting device. 




Obviously there can be a lot of variables, I understand. But, given some general assumptions in a typical scenario / perfect world, here are my questions I hope you might be able to help with. 

1. - Were fire curtains still commonly made with asbestos in 1976.

2. - What might a rough idea of the cost be to replace this system to bring it up to current standards with a motorized control, etc. 10k, 20k, 100k?


I do plan to get specific quotes etc, but for now I need to present some rough budgetary numbers for this and some other items I see that need attention. 

Thank you in advance for any advice / experience you can share.


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## Van (Aug 24, 2018)

Yes, Asbestos fire curtains were in manufactured through 77-78 if I remember correctly. 
Best guess, and I'm not an estimator, closer to $60-70k new curtain, tracks, rigging, motorized braille winch etc. but it has a lot to do with the original installation and what current codes are in your area and how much stuff has to be replaced. 
Also, I'm not familiar at all with Ca. asbestos abatement. Just did a replacement in Washington and it wasn't too difficult but I'm sure Ca has much more demanding regs and therefore higher costs for abatement Air quality testing, disposal etc. therefore costs for that phase could have significant impact on costs. Also, If your facility is "public" and the work is performed in conjunction with other structural work then the DSA may get involved. That typically has a significant cost impact as well. 

First step get it inspected !


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## np_pyro (Aug 24, 2018)

Van said:


> Yes, Asbestos fire curtains were in manufactured through 77-78 if I remember correctly.
> Best guess, and I'm not an estimator, closer to $60-70k new curtain, tracks, rigging, motorized braille winch etc. but it has a lot to do with the original installation and what current codes are in your area and how much stuff has to be replaced.
> Also, I'm not familiar at all with Ca. asbestos abatement. Just did a replacement in Washington and it wasn't too difficult but I'm sure Ca has much more demanding regs and therefore higher costs for abatement Air quality testing, disposal etc. therefore costs for that phase could have significant impact on costs. Also, If your facility is "public" and the work is performed in conjunction with other structural work then the DSA may get involved. That typically has a significant cost impact as well.
> 
> First step get it inspected !




Some great comments and insight. Thank you Van. 

By DSA do you mean The Division of the State Architect?


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## MNicolai (Aug 24, 2018)

With only a 16' H proscenium opening, I would a little surprised if your space is actually required to have a fire curtain even with a walkable grid. How tall is your fly loft, measured from stage floor to the highest interior point in your fly loft (typically this will be the bottom of your roof deck)?


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## np_pyro (Aug 24, 2018)

MNicolai said:


> With only a 16' H proscenium opening, I would a little surprised if your space is actually required to have a fire curtain even with a walkable grid. How tall is your fly loft, measured from stage floor to the highest interior point in your fly loft (typically this will be the bottom of your roof deck)?




The opening is a bit small compared to the stage. 

Floor to roof measures about 47' and about 37' to the bottom of the grid. 

We do have some sort of smoke/fire detection system and sprinklers already. Unsure of the exact type of detectors or if the sprinklers are linked to the alarm or just heat sensitive.


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## egilson1 (Aug 24, 2018)

1. Yes
2. North of 50K. @Van is probably close in his estimate.

From Section 410.3.4 Stages of the Internation Building code

410.3.4 Proscenium wall. 
Where the stage height is greater than 50 feet (15 240 mm), all portions of the stage shall be completely
separated from the seating area by a proscenium wall with not less than a 2-hour fire-resistance rating extending continuously from the foundation to the roof.

Keep in mind to properly work a fire curtain must be part of a complete system including ventilation. Can you convince the AHJ that a full replacement is not necessary? Maybe. It's worth a try. But I would recommend you hire a qualified person to consult with you before attempting that.

Ethan


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## Van (Aug 24, 2018)

np_pyro said:


> Some great comments and insight. Thank you Van.
> 
> By DSA do you mean The Division of the State Architect?


Yes, the dreaded DSA.


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## np_pyro (Aug 24, 2018)

egilson1 said:


> Keep in mind to properly work a fire curtain must be part of a complete system including ventilation. Can you convince the AHJ that a full replacement is not necessary? Maybe. It's worth a try. But I would recommend you hire a qualified person to consult with you before attempting that.




Thank you for this code reference. I knew of it, but couldn't remember the exact height or where to find it. 

I will definitely be consulting with others before attempting to convince the AHJ of anything. Our organization does have its own architects on staff that I'm sure will be much better suited to approach the issue with the local authorities. 

Simply removing it would be better in my view from both practical and budgetary aspects. 

Thank you for your help.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Aug 24, 2018)

Whether you need to any longer have a fire curtain should be your first question, and if the stage floor to roof deck maximum is 50' or less, you don't, assuming the rest of the stage and perhaps some parts of the building meet current code for "new". That's really the basis, and usually is not an issue, unless somehow they got around fully fire sprinkling the building, which was possible in the 1970s, but rare.

Just removing an asbestos fire curtain is not inexpensive.

I have converted the rigging for removed fire curtains to general purpose. Add a rope lock and maybe replace handline.

If one is required or desired the size of your proscenium and the fact it can be a simple straight lift means does not have to be motorized, though you might want to for other reasons. I would guess not motorized less than $50K - maybe much less - depending on suitability of existing rigging for reuse and cost to remove and dispose old one. (I believe that if removed, your School will own that FC forever, buried someplace, and that part of cost of disposal is a premium for insurance so that if that buried piece ever is to blame for anything, you're covered. Its crazy.)


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## jtweigandt (Aug 24, 2018)

And here I always thought the primary purpose of the fire curtain was to remind the actors that they are expendable..
SAVE THE AUDIENCE... SEAL THE STAGE!!!!!!


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## SteveB (Aug 24, 2018)

If anybody suggests a deluge curtain as alternative, scream NO over and over. The damage done from an accidental discharge is significantly greater than the cost of doing a modern version of the fire curtain.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Aug 25, 2018)

SteveB said:


> If anybody suggests a deluge curtain as alternative, scream NO over and over. The damage done from an accidental discharge is significantly greater than the cost of doing a modern version of the fire curtain.


Well, you will likely get your stage floor replaced by insurance.


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## SteveB (Aug 25, 2018)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> Well, you will likely get your stage floor replaced by insurance.



And whatever’s in the basement. Dimmer racks, etc...


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## tjrobb (Aug 25, 2018)

SteveB said:


> And whatever’s in the basement. Dimmer racks, etc...


Patron one: "They must have a deluge curtain in this theatre."
Patron two: "How can you tell?"
P1: "The orchestra is wearing snorkels."


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## venuetech (Aug 25, 2018)

A stage I worked was renovated in the mid 80’s the one thing they kept was the asbestos fire curtain. I think they updated it’s original 1964 rigging. I asked the consultant about it he said something like. That sniffer tests rarely showed any notable amount of free floating Asbestos fibers around an operating fire curtain in good condition. So there was no reason to replace it. But that was way back in the 80’s. And in a different state.
As in 1976 people were becoming aware asbestos was a bad solution. So It could be that the curtain is not asbestos but without documentation it may take an expert to tell you that.

So my question would be assuming the A-curtain and most rigging can still be used, what would it cost to motorize / update the operation?

After Inspection some of your options might be:
1 yell asbestos and replace everything (not a quick option as major big bucks must be found)
2 update to motorized operation (best imho if you can keep the big A, but will take time to plan and track down funding)
3 replace hemp handline/replace slash style fireline with ring release style. (a quick solution that can be done by nearby qualified rigger, and get you onto a regular test schedule. While you seek funding for other options)

If you can find any documentation on the installation that will come in handy.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Aug 25, 2018)

The only testing I know of was at the met as a result of musicians complaint. The report I heard was that even with a lot of raising and lowering and bumping the floor, the could not raise the particles in the air to an action level. And there are coatings, usually only looked into when the curtain is decoratively painted.

Even if you could keep asbestos, I'd advise against it. Its too political and will come back over and over again.

Get rid of it if you can and dont worry. By all records I've found they don't save people, so if not required, why spend on it.


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## SteveB (Aug 25, 2018)

Our asbestos curtains were replaced mid 1980’s with - I want to say “ Xetex” but not sure. It’s a double sided on a metal frame with dedicated line set, counterweight with motor drive. It also needs an upgrade and tie in to the fire alarm system and it’s going to be expensive. My college is currently ignoring the problems but hope the solution isn’t deluge, though I hope to be retired before they go that route.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Aug 25, 2018)

Zetex basic replacement for asbestos - a coated fibreglass. Same as what us sold for new today.

Tieing into fire alarm should not be hard nor expensive but may be simpler to just add detectors.


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## egilson1 (Aug 25, 2018)

Thermotex (technically THERMO-SPEC Fabric Style 44-WFC) is another fiberglass fabric like Zetex.


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## SteveB (Aug 25, 2018)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> Zetex basic replacement for asbestos - a coated fibreglass. Same as what us sold for new today.
> 
> Tieing into fire alarm should not be hard nor expensive but may be simpler to just add detectors.



Besides the motor needing major overhaul or replacement, an FA trip system needs to get installed. Currently it’s pull release or cut the tensioned rope, so needs to be updated and set to trip with FA. Plus heat sensors, etc...l. A theatrical rigging firm (not Sapsis or PDO) did a report and was clear on not doing a deluge, thank God.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Aug 26, 2018)

SteveB said:


> Besides the motor needing major overhaul or replacement, an FA trip system needs to get installed. Currently it’s pull release or cut the tensioned rope, so needs to be updated and set to trip with FA. Plus heat sensors, etc...l. A theatrical rigging firm (not Sapsis or PDO) did a report and was clear on not doing a deluge, thank God.


Steve - are you speaking for the original poster? I did not see where his was motorized currently.

You don't think the fact that the rigging contractor gets no work or profit out of a deluge system might have influence in their recommendation?


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## SteveB (Aug 26, 2018)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> Steve - are you speaking for the original poster? I did not see where his was motorized currently.
> 
> You don't think the fact that the rigging contractor gets no work or profit out of a deluge system might have influence in their recommendation?



No I was speaking of my own experience, the lack of a motorized system for the OP I would think would vastly complicate any update to a FA trigger.

And I’m certain the rigging contractor would desire the upgrade in place of deluge, but as we chatted, we all had multiple examples of recall of deluge activating in error, with tens of thousands in resulting damage, not to mention weeks of loss of facility. Thus we desire fire curtain and is what I would recommend to the OP


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## BillConnerFASTC (Aug 26, 2018)

The fire alarm device basically "cuts a rope" so works on motorized or manual just fine. (OK - it lets a rope go slack - which use to be cutting, or fusible links no longer required, etc. )

I don't think its as simplistic as deluge systems are always the wrong choice. If correctly designed, the chance of false tripping should be acceptably small. Too many do not incorporate the pre-action controls which prevent that.


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## teqniqal (Aug 31, 2018)

One should consider if this is a teaching facility or a professional venue. If it is a teaching facility, then a Fire Curtain system serves as a training tool to familiarize the students with the operation and functionality of a Fire Curtain System so they are not suprised by it's presence and understand the set design limitations of a facility equipped with a Fire Curtain.

Additionally, a Fire Curtain that is up to the current NFPA 80 _Standard for Fire Doors and Other Opening Protectives _can provide some security by physically separating the stage from the audience chamber to keep vandals and other unauthorized people from entering the stage area by way of the proscenium opening. This can save damage to set and scenery, theft, and reduces the likelihood that the unauthorized person might tamper with the rigging or electrical equipment in a manner that could either result in their death (or injury) or the possibility of them leaving the equipment in a condition that it could injure or kill someone else that enters the stage later (i.e. a 'booby trap', intentional or otherwise).

Keeping the Fire Curtain closed when the stage is not in use for shows or rehearsals also provides a dust barrier to keep set construction dust from migrating (air-born or by being tracked on shoes) into the audience chamber and soiling the upholstery and carpet.

Keeping the Fire Curtain closed also provides a physical barrier that can keep equipment on casters and inattentive people from wandering off the front of the stage apron and falling into the Orchestra Pit or front cross-aisle (particularly if it is dark - which is should never be, but that is a whole other conversation).

I generally don't agree with the idea that you should only have a Fire Curtain in a venue just because the Building / Fire Code requires it. Building Codes are a MINIMUM requirement. You can do more. The philosophy of "Save people, not buildings" doesn't sit well with me and the way my tax dollars are spent, either. Even if there isn't a huge database of $10M-$100M buildings being saved by a $50K Fire Curtain, there are other considerations like smoke damage and down-time due to smaller fire events. Have a Fire Curtain that works, use it, test it, and teach it. It's a much smaller investment than goes into sound, lighting, and rigging, let alone the whole building.


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