# Acoustical Shell Experience



## Morydd (Dec 7, 2010)

We're looking to replace our existing shell in the near future with one built by either Wenger or Secoa. I'm curious if anyone has any experience with either of those shells and can give me some feedback with regards to durability and ease of operation. And, of course, safety.
Thanks in advance.


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## Scarrgo (Dec 7, 2010)

Morydd said:


> We're looking to replace our existing shell in the near future with one built by either Wenger or Secoa. I'm curious if anyone has any experience with either of those shells and can give me some feedback with regards to durability and ease of operation. And, of course, safety.
> Thanks in advance.


 
We have a Secoa, Its just over 10 yrs old. It is one of the best looking and really easy to put together. 7 wall panels and three ceiling panels. It can be setup in less than 30 min. with a small crew that knows what its doing.

Ours is an off white (Bone), I know of anouther theater that has one that is a wood colour/pattern, its looks really good.

The only problem that we have is the battery, we got into a bad charging habit that killed the battery.

It would be nice to have an A/C option.

Sean...


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## irish79 (Dec 7, 2010)

We use a Wenger Legacy Classic shell. We use 5 units and i can set the whole thing up alone in about 40 minutes. It also has a small foot print when in storage.


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## MarshallPope (Dec 7, 2010)

We have a Wenger shell, with 10 wall pieces and 4 ceiling pieces. It is somewhere around 15 years old, and the adhesive is failing that holds the Formica panels. Several wall panels are gaffed on, and a few ceiling panels have fallen to the deck overnight in the past couple of years.

EDIT: I forgot to mention setup. It is really not that bad. 4 of us can set it up in about 20 minutes.


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## NevilleLighting (Dec 8, 2010)

Have a Wenger shell, walls only no ceiling. It's been very durable and get moved, used and abused a lot. Haven't had any problems. That being said, Secoa is also a very reliable company that has been in business for a long time. I think it primarily will come down to whomever gives you the best deal and offers a good, well thought out package that works for your situation.


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## museav (Dec 8, 2010)

From my experience, shells do tend to be somewhat a "you get what you pay for" proposition, the inexpensive ones are much less durable and may be easier to use. So it is not just the manufacturer but also what specific products you are considering.

I've also found differences if just how much customization or modification the manufacturer is willing or able to support without going to a truly custom shell. It's a little discouraging when you send a shell manufacturer drawings indicating where you need clear areas for other purposes, some desired dimensions, etc. and they can't do what you asked with their standard products, so they apparently assume that everyone else can modify their work to fit them and provide a design that works for them but ignores the information you provided.

Anyways, do you have an idea, at least in general terms, of what you're looking for in the shell? Is it full shell or just wall panels? Rotating or dead hung ceiling panels? Integrated lights? And so on.


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## firewater88 (Dec 14, 2010)

Scarrgo said:


> We have a Secoa, Its just over 10 yrs old. It is one of the best looking and really easy to put together. 7 wall panels and three ceiling panels. It can be setup in less than 30 min. with a small crew that knows what its doing.
> 
> Ours is an off white (Bone), I know of anouther theater that has one that is a wood colour/pattern, its looks really good.
> 
> ...



Another Secoa shell in my venue. 10 towers and 3 ceilings. I can do it by myself in about 30 min, if I need to. Mine is of light cherry color. Had trouble with panels really not matching each other at first, but they sent someone out to fix the problem.

Only bad thing about the shell (maybe all shells) is that mine has ETC pars built in-very handy feature- and the backs of the units stick out pretty far. My linesets are very close together and they bump the lighting housings and the burnbase of the pars. I wound up putting some 3' perf'd strap bent around the housing and secured to the back of the ceiling itself. This provides a nice bump guard for the lines directly behind the shell.

If you can, get the motorized lineset option. those ceilings can be very heavy!


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## Edrick (Dec 14, 2010)

What do you guys use these shells for?


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## DuckJordan (Dec 15, 2010)

Edrick said:


> What do you guys use these shells for?


 

Its generally used to project more sound out into the house and away from any soft goods or acoustical traps that can be inadvertently created backstage.

Unfortunately at least in the high school I went to the Acoustical shells didn't really do anything and caused more issues than they helped.


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## Scarrgo (Dec 15, 2010)

firewater88 said:


> Another Secoa shell in my venue. 10 towers and 3 ceilings. I can do it by myself in about 30 min, if I need to. Mine is of light cherry color. Had trouble with panels really not matching each other at first, but they sent someone out to fix the problem.
> 
> Only bad thing about the shell (maybe all shells) is that mine has ETC pars built in-very handy feature- and the backs of the units stick out pretty far. My linesets are very close together and they bump the lighting housings and the burnbase of the pars. I wound up putting some 3' perf'd strap bent around the housing and secured to the back of the ceiling itself. This provides a nice bump guard for the lines directly behind the shell.
> 
> If you can, get the motorized lineset option. those ceilings can be very heavy!


 

Our ceiling panels are motorized, can be very handy. I do wish our lights were S4's, as ours are Par 64's, they really can be in the way of other stuff, and they put one dimmer per light(21 fixtures, 21 dimmers) a waste in my opinion. 

I could also setup by myself(not that i havent), but Secoa recommends 4 people to move them to be safe, so you dont hook anything with the top.

Sean...


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## MNicolai (Dec 15, 2010)

Scarrgo said:


> I could also setup by myself(not that i havent), but Secoa recommends 4 people to move them to be safe, so you dont hook anything with the top.



And so if you drop a tower and it lands on you, someone can call 911.

I've only ever known of one person to topple a concert shell tower. Not one of his better days.


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## museav (Dec 15, 2010)

DuckJordan said:


> Its generally used to project more sound out into the house and away from any soft goods or acoustical traps that can be inadvertently created backstage.


Imrpoving the acoustical coupling of the performance space to the listening space is one function but another is supporting ensemble among the performers and allowing them to better hear one another.


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## Edrick (Dec 15, 2010)

Interesting I've never seen them used, looked at some photos seems like a pretty massive setup to put up, I'm assuming if you use them on stage you wouldn't use the ceiling tiles? Wouldn't that block the electrics and such.


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## MNicolai (Dec 15, 2010)

Edrick said:


> Interesting I've never seen them used, looked at some photos seems like a pretty massive setup to put up, I'm assuming if you use them on stage you wouldn't use the ceiling tiles? Wouldn't that block the electrics and such.


 
You don't need to use electrics. You can have light fixtures installed in the ceiling clouds. The normal setup involves:

-flying all softgoods, linesets, and electrics to the grid
-dropping in the ceiling clouds and tilting them down from their storage position into their presentation position
-connecting the light fixtures in the ceiling clouds to circuits somewhere (we use circuits off of our drop boxes)
-fly the ceiling clouds several feet higher than their usual trim height
-roll the towers into place and unfold the wings
-lower ceiling clouds to their trim height

I wouldn't describe it as a massive setup. It looks like a lot, but it goes pretty quickly.

Sometimes someone will try to value engineer out the built-in light fixtures and will try to plan enough room between clouds to lower the electrics through, but what happened with us when they tried that is that the final install didn't leave enough room and we were stuck with _absolutely zero down lighting_. Wasn't long before that turned into a political firestorm and we finally got the green light to have Wenger come out, bore the holes and install the hardware for recessed S4 PAR's.


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## museav (Dec 15, 2010)

MNicolai said:


> Sometimes someone will try to value engineer out the built-in light fixtures and will try to plan enough room between clouds to lower the electrics through, but what happened with us when they tried that is that the final install didn't leave enough room and we were stuck with _absolutely zero down lighting_. Wasn't long before that turned into a political firestorm and we finally got the green light to have Wenger come out, bore the holes and install the hardware for recessed S4 PAR's.


That is also exactly the kind of issue I've run into. You draw up the ceiling panel sizes, angles and locations you want and what you get back from the shell manufacturer is what they can do with their stock products. That means you then either layout everything around their design or bite the bullet for a custom shell, there doesn't really seem to be an intermediate 'semi-custom' option.


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## farmerjo1111 (Dec 15, 2010)

At one space we have 7 Wenger Diva towers and 3 ceiling pieces. It is a hug pain to set up. The air caster cart that is used to move the towers does not work on our stage floor. It also means that only one tower can be set at a time. If you don't have a completely smooth stage floor I would not recommend them. The one nice thing is that the ceiling pieces fit nicely between the electrics so we can fully use our electrics for lighting. It takes us over an Hour to set them up. In a different theater we have the SECOA one's and they are a breeze to set up. It takes 2 of us about 15 min to set it all up.


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## venuetech (Dec 15, 2010)

I have a Wenger stagemaster shell 9 towers 3 ceiling panels with space for the electrics to drop in and work. about 25 years old now.
The towers heavy caster load delaminated the original plywood floor. so i have been replacing that with particle board over the years.
No Formica on the shell so no problem with that. it is 1/4" Masonite painted off white. Plenty of Formica problems elsewhere in the venue.
about a 40 min setup time for myself.


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## Edrick (Dec 15, 2010)

What would the average setup cost, can you rent them? Seems like it might be something interesting to try for an event.


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## Morydd (Dec 15, 2010)

Thanks for all of the information. The one we've got now is a Wenger knock-off (yes, really, it's a Wegner). It's basically the same as the "Diva", so we've got the linesets spaced out for the ceiling and we've got circuits run for the lights, so I'm not too concerned about the infrasturcture in our space.

The problems we have are that the lifting points aren't consitstant so we have to adjust the lifter between shells, the locks that hold the ceiling closed aren't tight, so we've had them come open in the out position, and it's less than 10 years old and already delaminating among other issues. Things also don't lock in place so the whole thing kind of looks like crap. Given that experience we want to make sure we're getting a good product, and as expected, I think both Wenger and Secoa will give us that.

I wonder if we go with Secoa if we can get a free rigging inspection thrown in.


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## firewater88 (Dec 16, 2010)

Morydd said:


> I wonder if we go with Secoa if we can get a free rigging inspection thrown in.


 
My arbors are double arbors, with larger rope than my other linesets (yes all manual), larger cable pics and of course larger shives and head blocks... There would be a lot of taking out and putting in new with retro fits. Also, they bring their batton pipe truss (so you can keep your existing as extra pipe) Mine was new with the facility, I believe around a 100k option for the venue.




Here is a pic of mine from the concert about to start tonight. Cherry panels that match the cherry proscenium walls. I will have to dig up a pic of the backs of the light fixtures to shoe what I did. Also, I have dedicated circuits just for the shell, which drop form the grid just like my other drop box's. They have tilt sensors on the ceilings so you cant turn them on when in stored position.


edit: found pic of lighting bumper... From Secoa, they only put two L brackets on the can housing to the shell, which creates a nice pivot point. I added the strap to add more contact points and to bump off pipes US of the shell. And I can still change the lamps.


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## sstolnack (Dec 17, 2010)

We have Wenger, it's not bad to set up, we have a few problems with getting it hooked on our traveller, but if we have 3 people moving it, it goes fast. It does have a very small footprint in storage, if put away correctly. However, we have the problem mentioned earlier, the lights in the "sound clouds" (flying pieces of shell) were cut out because of budget, and now we have to try to light from the electrics, around them. It's pretty bad, I would definetly reccomend getting lights installed in them even if it costs a lot more.


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## MNicolai (Dec 17, 2010)

sstolnack said:


> We have Wenger, it's not bad to set up, we have a few problems with getting it hooked on our traveller, but if we have 3 people moving it, it goes fast. It does have a very small footprint in storage, if put away correctly. However, we have the problem mentioned earlier, the lights in the "sound clouds" (flying pieces of shell) were cut out because of budget, and now we have to try to light from the electrics, around them. It's pretty bad, I would definetly reccomend getting lights installed in them even if it costs a lot more.



FYI, you can have Wenger come back in and add them after-the-fact, like they did in our case. Might be worth talking to them just to see how much it would cost. I believe they had to send one of their guys out for a day's wages plus travel expenses, plus the cost of the hardware, the fixtures, and our in-house licensed master electrician ran the necessary conduits and cables on each of the clouds.


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## sstolnack (Dec 18, 2010)

Really? That would be really nice to get the lights installed. It's a high school, though, so I doubt that we'll be able to get the money. I'll bring it up to the theatre and band teachers. Thanks!


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## Morydd (Jan 19, 2011)

Speaking of lights. An idea has just occurred to me. Would LED Pars be sensible in this application? It seems like the lower heat load and energy use would be better great. I don't know if it's even an option, but if someone has a good idea why _not_ to do it, I'd like to hear them before I talk to the manufacturers.


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## MNicolai (Jan 19, 2011)

Morydd said:


> Speaking of lights. An idea has just occurred to me. Would LED Pars be sensible in this application? It seems like the lower heat load and energy use would be better great. I don't know if it's even an option, but if someone has a good idea why _not_ to do it, I'd like to hear them before I talk to the manufacturers.



Not really. This is a case where color washes aren't necessary, which is where LED's really win over tungsten sources. The three qualities to be looked for in concert shell lighting are brightness, a natural no-color wash, and minimal heat out of the front of the fixture. A 750w tungsten source will outshine an LED fixture pretty easily. It's only a fair fight if you're willing to buy fixtures that cost $1000-$2400/ea, and instead of going with something that's RGB/A/W, I'd suggest something more akin to the product Color Kinetics markets to film studios for white light or more to the effect of ETC's Pearl fixture.

Really though -- you'd be fine with standard Source Four PAR's for a fraction of the cost. If heat is a big problem, then a PAR MCM is still cheaper than an LED fixture with a white that'd be good enough to use for concert shell lighting. If you cheap out on an LED fixture, you'll end up with a very digital white that will be painful to watch a symphony perform under.

Another issue you may be faced with is that I've only ever seen mounting brackets for PAR's. With an LED fixture, you may need to have custom recessed mounting brackets fabricated.


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## techno89 (Jan 21, 2011)

We've got Wegner at school, they work pefectly and can setup and take down quickly.


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## llecount (Jan 28, 2011)

Another here with a Wenger Stage Master shell, going on 20 years old. 10 towers, and 3 overhead "clouds" as we call them. 
We use it as a default setup for all our concert performances (choirs, bands, orchestras, etc.). For lighting we use our 4 electrics loaded with 8' Altman R40 strips. Gives a good, even wash which the musicians love. Only big drawback to those is the heat output they produce (we call it the "easy bake oven"). I've staggered the tower wings to where they have an upstage gap that allows the air from offstage to blow in to the shell, which seems to work out well.


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## bhallerm (Jan 28, 2011)

Wenger Diva shell in our space. 7 towers, 3 ceiling panels, no lights installed. We run our lights on our electrics between the ceiling panels. The Diva (as mentioned) has a little hovercraft moving device and ours got a small tear in it once, but it is fixed now. Our stage deck is pretty smooth so usually not a problem. 

Ease of use: Tedious to move, but not overly difficult. Just have to be slow and steady with it to be safe. Two people can do it in an hour or less. (our facilities guys like to drag it out half the day) We have a cove built in the wall on the SL side of the stage where it fits nicely. (That was obviously a pre thought design)

Durability: Ours is only 5 years old and is in pretty good shape. It gets moved about 6-7 times a year for stretches of concerts and plays.

The issue in our space is that due to the location and height of the towers and width of the shell space vs. our electrics, I have to use drop bars on my 2nd and 3rd E to get the lights low enough to fit in the ceilings. If I don't, the E's will hit the top of the shell towers. Once it's up I can't access my 2nd either without the Genie lift or moving a tower.

The cool thing I've done with it though is use it as a back drop and legs. I have a dance studio that comes in twice a year and it's usually around concert time. Instead of taking the whole thing down, I just rotate the side towers like legs (this also gives me access to my electrics again) and keep the back of the shell as a cyc-ish/white backdrop. Put some RGB gelled Cyc strip lights up and RGB mix colors on the back shell. They like the look of the shell texture and how the side towers give great cover for dancers to come on and off at different depths of stage. (plus it saves me a ton of set change time).

BJH


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## whaleboat (Feb 24, 2011)

I have the Wenger Diva set-up , four clouds , 9 wall towers . They are durable and easy to set up . But , they've made my job difficult . We don't have enough fly space to store the clouds high enough to be out of the way of my electrics . I really have to work hard to light any show . The towers totally enclose the stage behind the main drape , upstage , stage right and left . Our stage isn't big enough for that type system . If I have a large band or orchestra , the percussionsectionhas to hold back because they are right up against the towers upstage . Sometimes I have a 60 piece orchestra and 150 person choir onstage . I have to mic the choir to get them up to the level of the orchestra , actually , slightly on top of the orchestra . I use hanging choir mics and it is a nightmare . Just imagine a 3 sided , hard surfaced box also enclosed top and bottom . Throw 210 people in there , a bunch of instruments , mic the choir , and try to get decent seperation and clarity out of that mess . I've got it down now , but it wasn't without a lot of blood , sweat , and tears . To top it all off , the shell system cost $180,000.00 . I constantly think about what my life would be like without them and I had the money to put into other equipment . On a high note , they are neat for bouncing light off of . People will sell you anything you are willing to buy , whether it fits the bill or not . Believe me , a stage with drapes only is far better than an improperly installed acoustic treatment . If you must go with acoustic treatments you need to consult with somebody that has studied the physics of sound , not an architect .


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