# Quality DMX Cable? (and Pin Connectors)



## gafftaper (Aug 8, 2007)

Putting together the sealed bid specifications for my lighting package. What brands should I consider "acceptable" for DMX and Scroller Cable? 

Lex is the only one I know for sure. Who else?


OH!! Also what brands should I list as acceptable for Cheeseborroughs so I don't end up with a bunch chinese stuff?


OH OH... what about GSP Connectors... Anything I should specify there besides clear cover?


----------



## Footer (Aug 8, 2007)

gafftaper said:


> Putting together the sealed bid specifications for my lighting package. What brands should I consider "acceptable" for DMX and Scroller Cable?
> Lex is the only one I know for sure. Who else?



Belden makes some great cable, cant rememeber the DMX cable off the top of my head. Tourflex is also some really rugged stuff.


----------



## Van (Aug 8, 2007)

Belden, and I can't remember the exact number, is usually THE cable spec'd in the DMX protocol. I beleive it used to be Belden 5143 but don't quote me. 
http://www.belden.com/pdfs/Techpprs/DMX-512.pdf
Here's an interesting link to the Belden website. has tables for suggested belden DMX cables as well as a discussion on the "proper" Belden ethernet cable to use. 

clamps, http://www.clampsunlimited.net/products.htm#Double-Right_Angle_Coupler I can't guarantee that their not from china, but, all their clamps are rated and you can D/L the testing certificates from the website.

GSP's, I don't know about everyone else, but I hate the new "ferrule" type. I've had really bad experiences with this type of connector. I'd much rather be forced to install crimp connectors, than run the risk of shearing all wire strands with the ferrule getting crimped to hard.


----------



## gafftaper (Aug 8, 2007)

Van said:


> GSP's, I don't know about everyone else, but I hate the new "ferrule" type. I've had really bad experiences with this type of connector. I'd much rather be forced to install crimp connectors, than run the risk of shearing all wire strands with the ferrule getting crimped to hard.



Hmm... now I'm glad I asked. I was just wondering what brand to specify... I know Union Connector but that's it. Anyway, I see I have the option of "pressure plate" or "Crimp Lug"... I didn't know I had an option. I've always used the one where you crimp on a spade connector and screw it down... I guess that's "pressure plate".  Am I right? Does anybody think the "crimp lug" style is a good idea?


----------



## Logos (Aug 8, 2007)

I am so glad that we really only have one choice to make in this country. Do we buy Clipsal or the cheap knock off.


----------



## gafftaper (Aug 8, 2007)

Logos said:


> I am so glad that we really only have one choice to make in this country. Do we buy Clipsal or the cheap knock off.



You wouldn't believe my list. I'm at a state college and so because this equipment is going to be over $46,000 it has to go through a public sealed bid process. Because of that I have to have a specific manufacturer and model number for every single item. If I don't, someone will undercut the legitimate dealers with Chinese cheeseboroughs and some junk DMX cable... win the bid... and I have to buy from them because it is the lowest priced product. It's insane!


----------



## SteveB (Aug 8, 2007)

Belden 9842 or 9156, or equiv. A Google of "Belden DMX cable" is useful

There was recently a thread on the stagecraft list about this, where the current suggestion for in-conduit installation is to use Cat5e cabling for DMX. This is acceptable as per USITT standard and is somewhat cheaper then using the heavier jacketed Belden type cable. The recommendation is to limit any Cat5e cable used for DMX to 300ft. runs max., in the event the cable is later converted to ethernet use. 

The recommendations is to use the Belden cables for all open-air usage, though heavier guage Cat6 (?) cable works well for DMX applications as well.

SB


----------



## jwl868 (Aug 8, 2007)

gafftaper said:


> it has to go through a public sealed bid process. Because of that I have to have a specific manufacturer and model number for every single item. If I don't, someone will undercut the legitimate dealers with Chinese cheeseboroughs and some junk DMX cable... win the bid... and I have to buy from them because it is the lowest priced product. It's insane!



Gaff

Be thankful that you can specify specific brands and models.

You might want to check the entire bid package. There may be clauses in the contract portion 
that allows substitution. It may be “or equal” or “approved equal”, but find out if its there. If there is an “approved” equal, find out if you are doing the approving. If it just says “or equal”, that could be a problem.

There may be an “exceptions” section. A vendor may be able provide a bid for most of the exact items, but may be allowed to offer substitutes for others. 

Do you know if there are vendors who can provide all of your items? (That is, is there a single vendor or supply house that can quote every single item.) Do you have any control over who can bid? (If it’s a public notice, then anyone can bid, but on the other hand, there may be a list of qualified bidders/vendors that the purchasing/procurement department uses.) Will vendors be allowed to bid on just part of the list? [I wrote all this on the assumption that there is just one bid package – Are there going to be multiple bid packages, based on general categories of equipment, such as one for cables/connectors, another for anything to do with lights, etc. Multiple bid packages will make a little more work for you and your purchasing department but it could make the overall bidding easier. For example, a cable supplier couldn’t bid on the lights if it was a single bid package, but he might try anyway, either taking an exception on the lights or trying to find a subcontractor.]

Do you know if you can purchase some items from one vendor and other items from another vendor? (I suspect not, but it would depend on how the bid is structured. For example, if the bid/contract was structured as lump sum for the whole list, you may not see individual prices or even be able to break it out.) 


Joe


----------



## BillESC (Aug 8, 2007)

Duraflex for your DMX cable. Best by a mile with twisted pair and double shielding.

Lex pin connectors would be my choice. The pins are replaceable and insulated holes through the connectors allow them to be tied together.

Light Source, Optikinetics and Global Truss all offer quality rated Cheeseborroughs.


----------



## gafftaper (Aug 8, 2007)

jwl868 said:


> Gaff
> Be thankful that you can specify specific brands and models.
> You might want to check the entire bid package. There may be clauses in the contract portion
> that allows substitution. It may be “or equal” or “approved equal”, but find out if its there. If there is an “approved” equal, find out if you are doing the approving. If it just says “or equal”, that could be a problem.
> ...



Hey Joe, 
The bad thing is that state law is really tight on most of this. The good thing is that our purchasing department has welcomed my full participation. I believe I am going to be able to stipulate that any substitutions must be approved by me. I'm writing the package so it's flexible where acceptable (like DMX cable and Cheesboroughs) but locked in tight where I want (only Source 4 ellipsoidals). 
I had a meeting with my preferred local dealer's custom sales guy yesterday and I know that they can supply everything on my list... unfortunately they still have to win a sealed bid. The truth is everything is pretty standard and there are many larger dealers who should easily be able to provide everything in the package. 
I have no control over who can bid. It all gets published on a state website so that anyone can bid. I believe we have to purchase everything that is in the same bid package from the same vendor. I'm trying to break it up into several packages so that my favorite Audio Vendor for example gets a shot at part of it. I'm hoping that our friend Bill can have a crack at some of my money... but even the small packages need to have at least a woman owned business, a minority owned business, and three other businesses bid. 
So the most important thing for me is to specify with as much detail as possible.


----------



## gafftaper (Aug 9, 2007)

Going back to GSP connectors... I'm guessing that the "pressure plate" is the style that I'm used to where you crimp 3 spade connectors on and screw them down. I've never seen the Crimp Lug. Van doesn't seem to like them. Do I have the two styles named correctly? Can someone describe Crimp Lug to me? Anyone think I should go with crimp lug instead of Pressure plate? 

I should have just started one thread called "Gaff's personal problems"...


----------



## Grog12 (Aug 9, 2007)

The problem with a thread like that gaff is half of it would be filled with your war on metric voodoo and you'd never get any answers.


----------



## gafftaper (Aug 9, 2007)

Grog12 said:


> The problem with a thread like that gaff is half of it would be filled with your war on metric voodoo and you'd never get any answers.



True... I have a lot of problems...

Pressure Plates vs Crimp Lugs anyone?


----------



## Van (Aug 9, 2007)

What I was calling the "crimp Lugs" is the kind that has about a 3/16" hole at the back of each pin. You strip the insulation off the wire, put this little steel ferrule < sp?> over the end of the wire strands then insert it into the hole, then you tightten the screw. My issue arises from the fact that, if you over tighten the screw, even a little, the walls of the ferrule break, and then cut through, strands of wire. I have worked on instruments, straight from the factory, that had as few as 2 sttrands of wire remaining in a given conductor. Some were cut completely. Pressure plate sounds a whole lot more like the style of mechanism you see on a twistlock.


----------



## gafftaper (Aug 9, 2007)

Van said:


> What I was calling the "crimp Lugs" is the kind that has about a 3/16" hole at the back of each pin. You strip the insulation off the wire, put this little steel ferrule < sp?> over the end of the wire strands then insert it into the hole, then you tightten the screw. My issue arises from the fact that, if you over tighten the screw, even a little, the walls of the ferrule break, and then cut through, strands of wire. I have worked on instruments, straight from the factory, that had as few as 2 sttrands of wire remaining in a given conductor. Some were cut completely. Pressure plate sounds a whole lot more like the style of mechanism you see on a twistlock.



Yeah I've seen some things similar to what you describe as crimp lug in the dash of my car. No thanks. I'll take the old fashioned route. It's really easy to see if they are in good shape or not.


----------



## DELO72 (Aug 10, 2007)

gafftaper said:


> True... I have a lot of problems...
> Pressure Plates vs Crimp Lugs anyone?



I've bought and installed at least 6 brands/types of GSP connectors and hands down the best (and easiest to install) were the BATES connectors. They offer clear tops, and have the easiest method of attaching the wires.

Unlike the Union connectors where you have to crimp the wire into a spade or ring connector first, and then balance the little screw and lock washer on top (Ugh!!), the Bates allow you to slide a little nickel sleave over the wire, and just insert it into the backs of the pin, and you tighten the little screw down onto it to secure it in place. They are SOOOOOO easy to use. 

Once you buy BATES, you'll never go back. Spend the $5 and try one to see.


----------



## gafftaper (Aug 10, 2007)

Thanks, I'll check out the bates connector right away.


----------



## Van (Aug 10, 2007)

Tangelos11 said:


> I've bought and installed at least 6 brands/types of GSP connectors and hands down the best (and easiest to install) were the BATES connectors. They offer clear tops, and have the easiest method of attaching the wires.
> 
> Unlike the Union connectors where you have to crimp the wire into a spade or ring connector first, and then balance the little screw and lock washer on top (Ugh!!), the Bates allow you to slide a little nickel sleave over the wire, and just insert it into the backs of the pin, and you tighten the little screw down onto it to secure it in place. They are SOOOOOO easy to use.
> 
> Once you buy BATES, you'll never go back. Spend the $5 and try one to see.


 
Those are exactly what I've been talking about! I can see them being useful, speedy even, but you have to drive home the idea that Over tightening the screw results in carnage.


----------



## gafftaper (Aug 10, 2007)

Hmm... I think maybe I better just stay with the product I know. It takes a while to crimp on those extra spades but you know it's all done really well.


----------



## Kelite (Aug 21, 2007)

<but even the small packages need to have at least a woman owned business, a minority owned business, and three other businesses bid.>

Ahhh... there is nothing like American free enterprise where the market determines the outcome...


----------



## bslproductions (Aug 21, 2007)

I regularly use and install TMB's DataPlex DMX cable. Its available in standard and plenum rated. Although for install use, in conduit is preferred. They also have an uprated version called ProPlex that is practically indestructable. Its excellent for rental and touring use. For a theatre, either grade would be an excellent choice, but if you have the budget, look at the ProPlex. Prebuilt, they are available with Amphenol or Neutrik connectors with footage marked in yellow and black bands with a shrink wrap on each end for your house label (ie your name). It comes in bulk spools of 1000ft for installation use.

For the stagepin connectors we have used both Rosco (bates style) and TMB's ProPins. I am extremely impressed with the ProPins. I have switched all my clients over to them. Van was mentioning the ferules, which ProPin does use, but i find they work very well without them installed if your using 12 gauge cabling. They are also the connector of choice for ETC's fabrication department.


----------



## Charc (Aug 21, 2007)

bslproductions said:


> I regularly use and install TMB's DataPlex DMX cable. Its available in standard and plenum rated. Although for install use, in conduit is preferred. They also have an uprated version called ProPlex that is practically indestructable. Its excellent for rental and touring use. For a theatre, either grade would be an excellent choice, but if you have the budget, look at the ProPlex. Prebuilt, they are available with Amphenol or Neutrik connectors with footage marked in yellow and black bands with a shrink wrap on each end for your house label (ie your name). It comes in bulk spools of 1000ft for installation use.
> For the stagepin connectors we have used both Rosco (bates style) and TMB's ProPins. I am extremely impressed with the ProPins. I have switched all my clients over to them. Van was mentioning the ferules, which ProPin does use, but i find they work very well without them installed if your using 12 gauge cabling. They are also the connector of choice for ETC's fabrication department.



A quick search didn't turn up a website for TMB. Do they have one?


----------



## soundman (Aug 21, 2007)

http://www.tmb.com/


----------



## BillESC (Aug 21, 2007)

Gaff,

When I suggested the Lex connectors I forgot to mention they are the distributor for Bates connectors. 

You can even get them with your name printed on them.


----------



## Radman (Aug 21, 2007)

I always was installing Bates connectors whenever we got new connectors in. I do agree though that the ferrule is a flaw, and am interested in these ones from TMB.

For DMX, I would do Cat 6 in conduit in a heartbeat. I would also consider it for cables if they have a durable version available. Try for shielded if available. I would (obviously) also use this for any Ethernet runs as well. Neutrik recently came out with a Cat 6 Ethercon line, and for any regular 8P8C (RJ-45) terminated cables you'll have to make sure you get a fully standard compliant cable that will fit into the connectors.

Don't know much about scroller cable.


----------



## Charc (Aug 21, 2007)

soundman said:


> http://www.tmb.com/



I'm thoroughly shamed by my incompetence. Thanks for the help though. I'll try to look harder next time.


----------



## gafftaper (Aug 21, 2007)

charcoaldabs said:


> I'm thoroughly shamed by my incompetence. Thanks for the help though. I'll try to look harder next time.



It's ok Charc, you're underage anyway. Your first trade show over 21 and you'll know EXACTLY who TMB is. It's the only booth that comes with a bouncer.


----------



## Charc (Aug 21, 2007)

gafftaper said:


> It's ok Charc, you're underage anyway. Your first trade show over 21 and you'll know EXACTLY who TMB is. It's the only booth that comes with a bouncer.



Hmm, interesting. I wish some came around my way... do they? LDI is in orange county this year, right? Is it always in orange county?


----------



## gafftaper (Aug 21, 2007)

Yeah it moves around... that's Orange County Florida... Orlando this year. 

You should also keep an eye on where USITT is... you should also JOIN USITT. 

LDI is a fun toy show. But USITT is the convention that is really designed for technicians to improve their craft... and it has a nice toy show that comes with it too... just a little smaller than LDI. USITT's in Houston next Spring.


----------



## Charc (Aug 22, 2007)

gafftaper said:


> Yeah it moves around... that's Orange County Florida... Orlando this year.
> You should also keep an eye on where USITT is... you should also JOIN USITT.
> LDI is a fun toy show. But USITT is the convention that is really designed for technicians to improve their craft... and it has a nice toy show that comes with it too... just a little smaller than LDI. USITT's in Houston next Spring.



I can _join_ USITT? Good god, why didn't anyone tell me? Haha, I am looking up their website right now for more info.


----------



## Grog12 (Aug 22, 2007)

gafftaper said:


> Yeah it moves around... that's Orange County Florida... Orlando this year.
> You should also keep an eye on where USITT is... you should also JOIN USITT.
> LDI is a fun toy show. But USITT is the convention that is really designed for technicians to improve their craft... and it has a nice toy show that comes with it too... just a little smaller than LDI. USITT's in Houston next Spring.


By move around what gaff means to say is LDI moves back and forth from Orlando to Las Vegas. It also focus primarily on lighting and sound..with some rigging/building type stuff.

USITT covers the entirety of tech theatre including Costumes and Stage Managment.

charcoaldabs said:


> I can _join_ USITT? Good god, why didn't anyone tell me? Haha, I am looking up their website right now for more info.


Yes join USITT...there's a student discount and you can actually sign up to be a student volunteer at the shows which gets you in for a lot cheaper or free for just a little slave labor. 
I suggest you do so..and do it now.


----------



## gafftaper (Sep 5, 2007)

So bumping this old discussion of connectors back to the top. Crimp Lug vs. Pressure Plate. I'm writing the bid with installation of the connectors as an alternate. If I am installing them I want Pressure Plate. I figured I would write the bid to say that if the alternate of installation is chosen, the vendor may use either style of connector. Van previously expressed frustration with installing crimp lugs... however, does anyone feel like that one type of connector is inferior when it comes to safety and durability?


----------



## icewolf08 (Sep 5, 2007)

gafftaper said:


> So bumping this old discussion of connectors back to the top. Crimp Lug vs. Pressure Plate. I'm writing the bid with installation of the connectors as an alternate. If I am installing them I want Pressure Plate. I figured I would write the bid to say that if the alternate of installation is chosen, the vendor may use either style of connector. Van previously expressed frustration with installing crimp lugs... however, does anyone feel like that one type of connector is inferior when it comes to safety and durability?



Are you talking DMX connectors? (I assume so since that is what the thread is) I always use solder connectors for my DMX cable, and I can't remember ever seeing crimp or pressure plate DMX connectors (which could be because I never looked past the solder type).


----------



## bslproductions (Sep 5, 2007)

Radman said:


> For DMX, I would do Cat 6 in conduit in a heartbeat. I would also consider it for cables if they have a durable version available. Try for shielded if available. I would (obviously) also use this for any Ethernet runs as well. Neutrik recently came out with a Cat 6 Ethercon line, and for any regular 8P8C (RJ-45) terminated cables you'll have to make sure you get a fully standard compliant cable that will fit into the connectors.
> Don't know much about scroller cable.



I would respectfully disagree with running CAT5e or CAT6 for DMX use, even shielded, unless the control network will be switched from DMX to ethernet later on. Ethernet cable has much thinner insulation than DMX and its not designed to deal with signal crosstalk since ethernet signals are sent in packets. They are both paired cables, but built to different specifications. 

I know there is a huge debate right now as to the fact that the better grades of CAT5e and CAT6 will handle it fine, but IMO its just not worth the risk of a compromised signal, especially on an install.


----------



## Charc (Sep 5, 2007)

I'm pretty sure Gaff is referring to a different thread, let me see if I can locate it...

Edit: Page one of this thread, he posses multiple questions.


----------



## gafftaper (Sep 5, 2007)

Sorry. Let me clarify. I'm going back to follow up on my hijack of my own thread and referring to GSP connectors in Pressure Plate vs. Crimp Lug. 

My question now is does anyone feel there is a safety benefit to one style over the other. If I'm paying the vendor to put GSP connectors on all my instruments, should I care which style of internal connection they use?


----------



## Sean (Sep 5, 2007)

gafftaper said:


> Sorry. Let me clarify. I'm going back to follow up on my hijack of my own thread and referring to GSP connectors in Pressure Plate vs. Crimp Lug.
> My question now is does anyone feel there is a safety benefit to one style over the other. If I'm paying the vendor to put GSP connectors on all my instruments, should I care which style of internal connection they use?



I have to say, I don't much care. I don't think in the long run it makes much difference. I'm partial to the wire shoe screw crimp style for when _I_ need to install them. I don't like pressure plates that much, and I certainly don't like having to crimp on rings and then screw the terminals.

But, to each his own. For the size venue you're dealing with, I don't think you should worry about it.

Incidently, to slightly hijack the thread, where did you (or anyone else) pick up "GSP"? The only abbreviation I've ever used is 2P&G, and it's the only one I've noticed in product literature.

--Sean


----------



## gafftaper (Sep 5, 2007)

Sean said:


> I have to say, I don't much care. I don't think in the long run it makes much difference. I'm partial to the wire shoe screw crimp style for when _I_ need to install them. I don't like pressure plates that much, and I certainly don't like having to crimp on rings and then screw the terminals.
> But, to each his own. For the size venue you're dealing with, I don't think you should worry about it.
> Incidently, to slightly hijack the thread, where did you (or anyone else) pick up "GSP"? The only abbreviation I've ever used is 2P&G, and it's the only one I've noticed in product literature.
> --Sean



I believe they were originally called General Stage Pin connectors by somebody. I don't know where I learned it that way and I didn't realize I was the only one around here saying it that way. Maybe it's a regional thing. 

Van do you guys say GSP down there in the land of many bridges?


----------



## Sean (Sep 6, 2007)

by the way....

2P&G means "2 pin and ground"


----------



## icewolf08 (Sep 6, 2007)

Sean said:


> by the way....
> 2P&G means "2 pin and ground"



You know I have been wondering where GSP came from too. I have always known them as 2P&G also. I guess it doesn't really matter. It is like calling an edison connector "two blade with U-Ground".


----------



## gafftaper (Sep 6, 2007)

icewolf08 said:


> You know I have been wondering where GSP came from too. I have always known them as 2P&G also. I guess it doesn't really matter. It is like calling an edison connector "two blade with U-Ground".



So is it Edison or PBG?


----------



## JD (Sep 6, 2007)

I sometimes have to laugh at how things get named! I have been around a long enough time to understand how and why, but to the newcomer it must appear we name things to intentionally confuse people! Take a piece of 12/3 so cable. It has three 12 gauge conductors; Black, White, and Green. Now, lets say we want the same thing in BX.... Do we ask for 12/3 ? NO! That would be 12/2 ! If you asked for 12/3 bx, you would get a cable with four 12 gauge conductors. (Red, Black, White, & Green.) 

When I grew up, Stage Pin connectors had two pins. Along came grounded connectors. Now, everyone called them "Two Pin Stage Plugs." I'll never forget the day (think it was around 1968) when I overheard the AV director placing an order for 10 male connectors:
"I need 10 male 2 pin connectors... no.. no, the newer ones with 3 pins..." Don't know why it hit me so funny, but it took a week for me to stop laughing! 

I just call them Stage Plugs. Nice. Simple. Two syllables. No need to over exercise the tongue. By that I mean a connector that has 3 pins, one being a ground. Stage Pin Plugs, GSP, 2P&G, all those other words just add syllables! If I want something unconventional, I'll get into the extra words, but anybody who has worked a stage for awhile knows what a Stage Plug is. As for the "two blade fifteen amp U ground Edison male cap", I call them "plugs" (omit the word "Stage")


----------



## derekleffew (Sep 6, 2007)

JD said:


> I just call them Stage Plugs. Nice. Simple. Two syllables. No need to over exercise the tongue. By that I mean a connector that has 3 pins, one being a ground. Stage Pin Plugs, GSP, 2P&G, all those other words just add syllables! If I want something unconventional, I'll get into the extra words, but anybody who has worked a stage for awhile knows what a Stage Plug is. As for the "two blade fifteen amp U ground Edison male cap", I call them "plugs" (omit the word "Stage")



Sorry, "stage plug" is taken and refers to an entirely different animal.
http://books.google.com/books?id=Yj...ts=6F8evzNTt5&sig=yWach6olcZIqtzVysYbkD1H-AD8

Although the connector/receptacle is (practically) obsolete, the term cannot be re-applied.

Gaff, the "G" in GSP is for "grounded," not general. I still think of German Shorthaired Pointers whenever I hear that however.

I call it a "stage pin" when speaking and 2P&G when writing/specifying. Anyone use PBU for parallel-blade u-ground (Edison)?


----------



## icewolf08 (Sep 6, 2007)

derekleffew said:


> Anyone use PBU for parallel-blade u-ground (Edison)?



I knew there was some shorter way to get that out, I just couldn't remember it.


----------



## JD (Sep 6, 2007)

derekleffew said:


> Sorry, "stage plug" is taken and refers to an entirely different animal.
> http://books.google.com/books?id=Yj...ts=6F8evzNTt5&sig=yWach6olcZIqtzVysYbkD1H-AD8



Last time I saw one of those, it was attached to an antique electric chair!
No, Stage plug:

http://www.sourceshop.com/catalogue.asp?cat=Electrical-Supplies


----------



## gafftaper (Sep 6, 2007)

derekleffew said:


> Anyone use PBU for parallel-blade u-ground (Edison)?



I thought it was PBG as in parallel-blade ground...


----------



## lieperjp (Feb 10, 2009)

Follow up question:

Where's a good place to purchase a spool of either the Belden or the Dura-Flex cable? Looking for about 300-500 feet of DMX cable.


----------



## icewolf08 (Feb 10, 2009)

lieperjp said:


> Follow up question:
> 
> Where's a good place to purchase a spool of either the Belden or the Dura-Flex cable? Looking for about 300-500 feet of DMX cable.



If you want a roll then you will be getting 1000 feet. Most of the time anything less than a roll is on a per foot price and is usually more expensive per foot than the cost per foot. I would call the major distributors like BMI or Production advantage. I got a good deal on Gepco DMX cable last year from systemsstore.com.


----------



## mrb (Feb 10, 2009)

as far as Stage pin connectors, Advanced Devices Bates are the best out there. They are owned by Marinco now. You can get them in the type where you slide the ferrule over the wire and stick it in a hole and tighten a screw, and they are avaialble where they use a crimp ring terminal. If you are purchasing manufactured cables, I would go with the crimp terminal, and specify the screws are torqued to mfgr spec with a torque screwdriver, not just rammed home with a drill.

The TMB Pro Pins are made in china, by Kupo I believe. It is my understanding that LEX now uses connectors from Leviton. Leviton used to resell union connector, but now make their own in china.

I have sampled chinese connectors, and will never use them. The brass is of poor quality and the screws strip out.

When you can get the advanced devices Bates connectors for under $5, there is NO reason to use any other.

With regard to the DMX cable, TMB' ProPlex is the best, hands down. I swear, you could hang a truss from the stuff. -If this is for theater use, not rental or touring, you would be fine with their Dataplex brand cable.


----------



## derekleffew (Oct 25, 2009)

For more than you ever wanted to know about 2P&G/GSP/Stage Pin Connectors, see the collaborative article: Connectors, Stage Pin.


----------



## mstaylor (Oct 25, 2009)

I too am old enough to remember using two pin stage plugs. With the addition of the ground it is known in my neck of the woods as three pin stage. We also had twist locks of both right hand and left hand twist, depending on the theatre. I was taught left hand twist were west coast twistlocks and righthand were east coast. I have no idea if this is indeed truely the names but that was the way I learned it from older techs.


----------



## derekleffew (Oct 25, 2009)

First time in 33 years I've ever heard of right hand and left hand twistlocks. The greatest differentiation I've encountered is TLGI "Ground In" (NEMA-compliant) and TLGO "Ground Out" (Obsolete). Did these turn-to-lock in a different direction? I can't remember, but I don't think so.


----------



## mstaylor (Oct 25, 2009)

To be honest with you I can't remember. I thought they twisted in opposite directions but it may have just been the ground pin bent in or out.


----------



## Sloanhaus (Nov 23, 2009)

So I am buying DMX cable and I will be running about 25 to 30 lights at weddings. All my lights are 3 pin XLR. I saw this DMX cable and wondered if this is pretty good. I just want to make sure I dont get any interferance as you can imagine how bad it would be if the lights started flashing during a wedding. Thanks in adavance
Gepco - DMX512 Lighting Control Cable: SystemsStore.com


----------



## avkid (Nov 24, 2009)

Sloanhaus said:


> So I am buying DMX cable and I will be running about 25 to 30 lights at weddings. All my lights are 3 pin XLR. I saw this DMX cable and wondered if this is pretty good. I just want to make sure I dont get any interferance as you can imagine how bad it would be if the lights started flashing during a wedding. Thanks in adavance
> Gepco - DMX512 Lighting Control Cable: SystemsStore.com



Gepco makes good cable, you should not have any problems.


----------



## JD (Nov 24, 2009)

Good stuff, but you can use single pair cable as you are running 3 pin connectors. If you go with this cable, use only one pair. (Do not parallel the conductors!)


----------



## icewolf08 (Nov 24, 2009)

Sloanhaus said:


> So I am buying DMX cable and I will be running about 25 to 30 lights at weddings. All my lights are 3 pin XLR. I saw this DMX cable and wondered if this is pretty good. I just want to make sure I dont get any interferance as you can imagine how bad it would be if the lights started flashing during a wedding. Thanks in adavance
> Gepco - DMX512 Lighting Control Cable: SystemsStore.com



I bought a roll of that cable three years ago and have been very happy with it. I made a bunch of both 3-pin and 5-pin cables from it. Works great.


----------



## derekleffew (Nov 24, 2009)

icewolf08 said:


> I bought a roll of that cable three years ago and have been very happy with it. I made a bunch of both 3-pin and 5-pin cables from it. Works great.


Reiterating what JD said, no need to buy two-pair cable if you're going to be using it with 3-pin XLRs. Any 110Ω cable should be fine.

As for the 3-pin vs. 5-pin debate, see STEVETERRY's article 
Whose network is it, anyway? Why the end user is the loser in the DMX512 connector controversy.


----------



## epimetheus (Nov 25, 2009)

I've got some of the Gepco cable (DLC224) sitting in front of me right now. Seems like pretty decent cable to me. The only thing I don't like about it is that the 2 pairs are not individually twisted. All 4 wires from both pairs are twisted together, like the quad mic cable. I know that this isn't acceptable in industrial RS-485 situations; the pairs have to individually twisted (a la Belden 9842). It doesn't seem to be an issue in DMX systems however. I think the main reason it isn't an issue is that the second pair is officially unused. If you had a second data stream on the second pair, individually twisted pairs would have less crosstalk.


----------



## JD (Nov 25, 2009)

epimetheus said:


> I've got some of the Gepco cable (DLC224) sitting in front of me right now. Seems like pretty decent cable to me. The only thing I don't like about it is that the 2 pairs are not individually twisted. All 4 wires from both pairs are twisted together, like the quad mic cable. I know that this isn't acceptable in industrial RS-485 situations; the pairs have to individually twisted (a la Belden 9842). It doesn't seem to be an issue in DMX systems however. I think the main reason it isn't an issue is that the second pair is officially unused. If you had a second data stream on the second pair, individually twisted pairs would have less crosstalk.



Right on both counts! Not true cable if the pairs are not paired! and... probably no problem because the second set is unused. I forget what 2 pair I am using, but they are separate pairs with individual shields.


----------



## Sloanhaus (Dec 6, 2009)

derekleffew said:


> Reiterating what [user]JD[/user] said, no need to buy two-pair cable if you're going to be using it with 3-pin XLRs. Any 110Ω cable should be fine.
> 
> As for the 3-pin vs. 5-pin debate, see [user]STEVETERRY[/user]'s article
> Whose network is it, anyway? Why the end user is the loser in the DMX512 connector controversy.



I looked on Gepco website and couldnt see any 1 paired dmx cable. Does anyone have a link to some good 1 pair cable that I can buy online. Thanks

Brad sloan


----------



## derekleffew (Dec 6, 2009)

Single-pair cable cannot be called DMX cable. But for 3-pin connectors, which also can't be called DMX, this cable if you want to stay with Gepco.


----------



## bmethven (Dec 8, 2009)

Hello, there my name is Barbara and I work for a company called Coast Wire and Plastic, Technology located in Carosn, CA. We have been providing entertainment and stage lighting cables for over 50 years. We have two lines of DMX cables...CoastPro (a chinese version at very great prices) or our Coastflex line which is custom built and both use the Neutrik line of connector. I could send you some information or if you would like to contact me @ 800-514-9473, I would be more than happy to help you.


----------



## ship (Dec 9, 2009)

Any number of DMX cable companies out there, and if sufficient quality in cable type and wiring standards what is wrong with something made in China other than if on short lead time to fulfill the order?

Mostly for a DMX cable almost standard to the industry from national sound company also making cable (hey we make the same stuff...) to local lighting company that can make it for you, to national Company from TMB to Star and lots of others including Rosco and High End, there is endless options for any type of and especially DMX grade cable. 

Get your company name, logo, phone number, cable color for length and even a E-tape ring of tape on the cable under clear heat shrink designating what you want for free. Place a large enough order and give time for them to make it and all is normally good.

On stage pin or Edison or other cable - same story in any supplier quoting out your cable should be willing without price increase to pre-mark your cable for you as to your needs. A few things of note about cable on the other hand is the crimp verses ferrule based stage pin plugs. A crimp plug is one time use. Someone the jobsite finds need as I have indeed in the past to make a 50' stage to Edison jumper, and you now have a stage pin plug if crimped that’s totally useless for future use other than as spare parts for the plastic. Should not be extra charge for your cable in build to specify ferrule type non-crimp type screw terminal based stage pin plugs or consider that no’ go as part of the bid in not doing so. Otherwise once used, that plug is for all intensive purposes useless. This unless say saving the pins for say two wire stringers where you could replace the useless otherwise crimp pin for that of a ground pin. Same problem with lighting fixtures, if not specified you might get one time use only crimp pin plugs for them and shouldn’t be an extra charge for normal screw termial plugs if paying to have them installed.

Edison plugs or twist lock, no crimp available but with stage pin one should as with DMX cable get a free sample so as to play test and judge for your standards. Gotten quite a few free samples over the years of cable and at times as “sample of their work” some gear that isn’t up to standard. Be it an Edison plug that if 12/3 SJ cable is with strain relief is tightened all the way down thus forcing the rubber insulators out of the way and allowing as little as 1/32" of insulation between conductors at the place such conductors at the plug move most to DMX cable as sample that was spotty workmanship on a free sample of what work they could do for us. Especially common is improper strain reliefs on DMX cable or over tightened Edison cables. This much less, sure we can do cheap thermoplastic SJEOW or some form of SEWO cable for you cheaper and the cable is cheaper, but if it touches a light fixture by accident it’s now useless in having melted thru and shorted to the fixture. Lots of details in a bidding process.

I note a preference of crimp type ring terminal type stage pin plugs to ferrule type plugs. Yes I can see this assuming the proper ring terminal and lock washer for them as long as not Leviton that’s too short in body of the plug to properly use it. The old Union plugs lasted forever and a day in that concept if done properly even with friction tape to build up the cable type, and assuming you have the Stakon type proper crimp tool cut away on its front jaw so it would do it.

I don’t miss Union plugs, Rosco or other types of plug in ring terminals types. Even had the Leviton rep. walk away with his new plug taking a Bates plug with him in seeing how much better it was. For the Leviton... lack of strain relief and ability to crimp say a 16ga wire and in general room enough to get cable to where it needs to get.

On other brands of ring terminal plug to be fair, there is more ring and often strain relief options for the cable type used. And if you double up the strip length of the wire within a terminal than fold it back on itself it will normally in being about 13ga if starting out to be about 16ga, sufficiently fit within a 12ga ring terminal. Assuming the user has done this - otherwise its much like with assuming the proper Stakon displacing instead of crushing of the material as if you were taking a Vise grip to it... just kind of smashing the ring terminal and hoping for the best.

Same problems if not even worse or more likely the same in using a 12ga ferrule offered in a ferrule Bates like plug with a 16ga fixture wire if not the same or worse in that set screw just cutting thru the ferrule and cutting thru conductors and making for a ferrule that you cannot remove. I don’t use the single 12ga ferrule with 16ga wire fixtures, I buy hundreds of insulated 16ga insulated ferrules per year for stage pin plug use than sleeve the 12ga ferrule over them if not even install a 14ga ferrule sleeve between both at times. This double or tripple layer of ferrule than both with main 12ga ferrule centers the ferrule on the screw terminal hole, and with the 16ga wire under it provides an added level of metal between turning screw so as to prevent cutting thru and also locates and better supports the 16ga ferrule within the terminal. This or if without a 16ga insulated terminal I have them fold back on itself the wire for the 12ga terminal the same as with a crimp terminal. Same thing except with a Bates style ferrule type stage pin plug, you don’t need to own or have on site a proper crimp tool and its more a question of proper tenstion on a screw than proper tension on a ring termianl than also screw.

Hard to get people properly trained enough for screw tension, almost impossible to train people to properly crimp a ring terminal - assuming they even have the proper tools especially on the jobsite to do so.

This my argument as other than the Bates style ferrule type stage pin plug. On other types of plug... most all major plug manufacturers provide both instructions with each plug and even cast into the back of the plug strip length templates. Assuming even the most professional of tech people might at some point during their years of experience read or see such a thing it’s not surprising at at any point to see like 1/4" worth of sripped wire and all the conductor shoved into the plug - clamp now clamping down on the insulation of the conductor and strain relief for the plug clamping down onto outer jacket striped cables. This much less in those making adaptors “professionally” in taking the stage pin plug off, inserting the wire ferrule and all into the clamp of the plug and tensioning the strain relief onto the outer jacket lacking cable. Thanks for the help but I would prefer less damage in ferrules now stuck inside the plug and or at very least properly wired cable.

Anyway overall concept, if stage hands in the field cannot wire a plug safely or properly... them paid much less as non-pro had at best in sample of their work be inspected. Should you see such a sample of bad work be it DMX or Edison or what ever... would cross them off the quote.... years later they contacted someone else to get us to buy cable from them... yeat it all goes thru me and here is the problems with their cable...

Save your records by the way in why you chose one over another by the way, comes in useful later.



Ibid, the properly terminated ferrule for what gauge of wire it’s used for.

Clamps... Something interesting came up today. Been buying the Kupo CL-17 Eye Ring coupler for about a year now. Like at least $20.00 each less and in constantly needing more so as to rig the next LED wall flavor... it was a great choice. In the past I have been using a Doughty #T57000 clamp with side lock nut an shoulder eyebolt. Very expensive to use and it’s assuming our guys assembled such a thing correctly as opposed to having cut corners.

Something installed at the factory and as not modified as factory rated verses a clamp used in the past with shoulder eyebolt in assuming proper supervision of assembly of. No question that I bought hundreds of factory installed eye bolt clamps over the past year in both cheaper, load rated and given it’s factory installed and out of supervision for how its made I no longer have liabilabilty for it.

Gosh [email protected]& them especially freelance crew chief people in taking it upon themselves, (our trained guys will no doubt have asked first - assuming proper training) that figured out of their own huge knowledge in knowing what the heck they were doing in not asking permission, them who started to remove the set screws from such fixed eyebolt couplers so as to swivel. Gee, thanks for now totaly screwing the factory specification of these clamps for us in any potential liability the Master Rigger and I debated out very heavily in citing this problem with the clamps in buying that someone might undoo but in cost effectiveness and liability we found this clamp to be the best option in both cost effectiveness and liability.

Few hundred of these clamps now in stock - no matter where made they were load rated but some people made it at random at this point what in show comes back in tossing clamps back into the bin as to what’s still factory specification and what is now potentially unsafe. Even if I lock up such things, in need or end user it would no longer assure proper after usage. Back again to the game with the Doughty clamps with eyebolts on them in assuming those installing eyebolts on them were competent to install them proper in the proper hardware we were trying to get away from in idiot proofing the system for safety in overall goal. Gee, was that sidelock nut even a sidelock nut, was it gripping properly, was the eyebolt now in not thinking about such a concept now damaging the truss in sticking out a wee bit too far? Lots of common problems in production both of us were trying in this new type of pre-assembled clamp were trying to solve.

The KCP-833 swivel eye ring coupler seems to solve as concept much of the above problems in being swivel coupler not before now an option.

So as of today was brought up today in noting of the SWL of this clamp by the Head of Hoist Dpt. or for all intensive purposes head rigger at the shop, the clamp says 500KG but the eyebolt itself rates itself at 440 Lbs. Website rates this clamp type with eye ring both swivel and fixed for 500Kgs / 1,100Lbs, yet the eye ring itself is only 440# SWL rated. It’s Kupo/China and perhaps liability wise there might have been a misunderstanding - this much less what is the class of 
“SWL” load rating in comparison to tested breaking strength in such gear in SWL is at times differernt for different industries. Is it 8:1, 5:1 or 2:1 this rating for it in all being different for 
SWL rating. Kind of disappointed my Moonlight rep. in the US sales rep. for Kupo didn’t instantly reply today. If no a day in response time by them I would think it bad.

Still though overall, this is as product a separate question from China country product verses brand name. There in stamped on the clamp is not a doubt that the 500KG half cheseborough clamp on such a thing would be as rated. This is more or less a more detailed thing about the clamp than the assembly as perhaps ovelooked in specification for it as published for its rating as a mistake.


China type of thing in quality of product pre-assembled verses say Euro type product for clamp which would do an eyebolt below it for at least twice the price and domestic Eyebolt we bought separate which would now have to be assembled in the shop? This assuming I couldn’t assure someone was not removing set screws from the pre-built eyebolt assemblies we bought to factory specification, how would we assume some to assemble something domestic in Eyebolt with Euro clamp that could work with it would be assembled with it any more safely?

At this point for me at least it don’t matter where it’s made, more a question of you doing what you also need to in being the master of your space and accepting bought when it’s not your’s in doing so only to your specification for quality (assuming you have such a standard to base it off of.) Domestic or foreign made don’t matter even which continent or time zone made from for that standpoint. Even on these Kupo Eyebolt clamps, and I’m up for the swivel versions of them in being cost effective and solving the problem.. If now properly rated for like 400# this is fine and safe as long as now properly rated for it. Want to see the testing for it of course but in doing so where its’ made I do not have any more Ill thoughts from this China company than a domestic one or a contintntial one. All bad until I see the product.


----------



## ship (Apr 13, 2010)

gafftaper said:


> Putting together the sealed bid specifications for my lighting package. What brands should I consider "acceptable" for DMX and Scroller Cable?
> 
> Lex is the only one I know for sure. Who else?
> 
> ...



For clamps or cable, at what point is a domestic company domestic? Having made the cable say in the US but having made the clamp elsewhere, or a company having made much of it elsewhere now in the US? 

Any quality differences? In assuming a company you shop from, it is their quality control and standards no matter where it is made. Given this, it is is now a question of the name brand no matter where that company originates from or where their product is made.

In other words, from China or was that Japan in years later China now having the stigma Japan had years ago for quality in question. Yea, a building process but watch out as it’s a gearing up possess also so as to duplicate the Sony Walkman revolution. First Mac 2K lamps (Mac 2K/Martin another foreign brand) I remember were Koto out of Japan. GE bought them out.

PEC as a brand verses GE... Feit verses Philips... that’s stuff I can speak about. Kupo verses James Thomas Engineering or TMB, not as much other than it’s all in question. All the gear in use dependant upon application, design and price for what it is by others. Where it is from isn’t as much a problem as quality. Where I work took a big chance on some foreign brand by the way of “Martin” years ago when they were first coming out. Wasn’t High End or rented from Veri-lite as you couldn’t own their gear back than. Don’t see a difference or are the oriental types less advanced than the Euro types as more advanced or quality at some point? This given a name brand stamped on the product as opposed to just “China” for rigging.

Quality and inspection of what you get is an obvious thing, but where it's made is less an issue for me these days.


----------



## bishopthomas (Apr 13, 2010)

ship said:


> Quality and inspection of what you get is an obvious thing, but where it's made is less an issue for me these days.



Glad to know others feel that way. Saying a blanket statement like, "I won't buy anything from China" is just plain ignorance and xenophobia.


----------



## shiben (Apr 13, 2010)

bishopthomas said:


> Glad to know others feel that way. Saying a blanket statement like, "I won't buy anything from China" is just plain ignorance and xenophobia.



Plus, many items known for quality are made in China, its more of a "Chinese variant" or a respected company producing it where the labor is cheap. Quite frankly, there are plenty of American products that have terrible quality themselves. Also, "Made in the USA" stickers only require that you make some part of the product in the US, and I know a lot of things the only part of the assembly done is putting the Made in the USA sticker on... although that may have toughened since that broke as the case...


----------

