# Best LED wash fixtures for around $300



## Eriksrocks (Dec 20, 2011)

In your opinion, what is the best LED wash fixture currently available that goes for around $300 per fixture? 

The primary use for these for the show we are buying them for will be to uplight some drapes (transparent/scrim I believe), but we don't get the opportunity to buy new lighting fixtures very often (and these will be our first LED's), so maximum flexibility is nice. 

Fixture form factor is not a huge factor, although these will be on the floor so nothing gigantic. We probably won't need W or A for this show, but again maximum flexibility is ideal. The ideal would obviously be RGBAW but RGBW or RGBA would also be great. I can't see these ever being used for any kind of frontlight in the near future so RGBW would probably suit us better than RGBA. 

I was looking at the COLORado 1 but it looks like those are still going for around $500 per fixture.

Also looking at the Chauvet Colordash Batten. Right around our price range based on Google Shopping and since it's a strip it would probably work well for uplight. Has anyone had any experience with this fixture? Only downside is it's only RGB.

Any other suggestions for solid LED fixtures for around $300 a piece?

Thank you very much! 

EDIT: Buying used is definitely an option - these are LEDs so I imagine there is little we have to worry about as far as wear and tear. 

EDIT 2: What about The Puck RGBAW?


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## ccm1495 (Dec 20, 2011)

I know that when we looked into leds we could not find anything that would have suited our needs for under 300. Maybe you should take a look at this thread.

http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/lighting-electrics/23865-cheap-led-round-up.html


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## len (Dec 20, 2011)

Since you're a HS student, are you buying these or is the school buying them? If it's the school, they probably won't want to consider used, since used lighting doesn't come with a warranty and if it's a capitol (or is it capital) expense they might be required to get bids. 

Puck lights are just a design style and the name has become generic, like Kleenex. Everybody makes puck lights, or slim pars, or whatever brand name they're called by. When it comes to LED, I don't see any difference vs. a par can with the same amount and quality of diodes. 

As for LED par cans, you can order them with different beam spreads. That may be an asset vs. a batten. Or not. Do you want to see beams or do you want a more even wash?

There's a couple products on the market that look like diffusion gel. I think Elation makes some, which also might be a way to go to provide that wash look from a LED par. However, not all led par/puck, etc., have a way to mount gel successfully, so that may enter into your decision as well.


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## sk8rsdad (Dec 20, 2011)

Buying used is a bad plan for a theatrical wash LED. The assumption is last year's model is good enough for the next 10 year. The rapid evolution of LED means that any fixture more than 2 years old it is obsolete, and any fixture more than 3 years old is generations behind the current stuff. If you are making a capital investment in stage lighting for a facility, plan for a 10 year investment.

LED fixtures with comparable performance tend to cluster into one of four tiers. Comparing between the tiers yields misleading results. A Blizzard Puck is not the same as a Color Kinetics, even if they have the same number of LEDs and both claim to be RGBAW. Depending on the system, there will be additional costs in cabling and external power supplies.

<$100 novelty
$200 truss warmer,
$600 bright with smooth dimming but no temperature management
$1000 state of the art


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## BillESC (Dec 20, 2011)

Exactly what you're looking for.

http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/cb-classifieds/25607-tyled-demo-stock-fs.html


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## Tex (Dec 20, 2011)

sk8rsdad said:


> Buying used is a bad plan for a theatrical wash LED. The assumption is last year's model is good enough for the next 10 year. The rapid evolution of LED means that any fixture more than 2 years old it is obsolete, and any fixture more than 3 years old is generations behind the current stuff.


 I think the main question is "Do the fixtures successfully wash the stage in color?"
If the answer is yes, is the fixture really obsolete? I understand that technology will always evolve and new features will be added, but if you plan for a 10 year life-span won't the fixtures you buy always be "obsolete" in a year?


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## Kelite (Dec 20, 2011)

Tex said:


> I think the main question is "Do the fixtures successfully wash the stage in color?"
> If the answer is yes, is the fixture really obsolete? I understand that technology will always evolve and new features will be added, but if you plan for a 10 year life-span won't the fixtures you buy always be "obsolete" in a year?


 
I have a tendency to agree with that statement, within many applications. If last year's widget wasn't bright/loud/cool/hot enough, then perhaps the next generation of widgets will be. If the widget did provide a solution to the problem, the problem has been solved. 

Apollo sells new things. Personally I'm not opposed to buying last year's new thing IF it provides a solution to my needs. (Especially if there is a cost savings and a warranty with the item.) Which is why we are offering the Multiform 1018 54W RGB wash fixture at a deep discount of $398 MSRP. Dealers can sell well below this price if they choose, but when they are gone- they are gone. 

http://downloads.goapollo.com/Multiform 1018.pdf


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## sk8rsdad (Dec 20, 2011)

Tex said:


> I think the main question is "Do the fixtures successfully wash the stage in color?"
> If the answer is yes, is the fixture really obsolete? I understand that technology will always evolve and new features will be added, but if you plan for a 10 year life-span won't the fixtures you buy always be "obsolete" in a year?


 
I agree with this too. It has been my experience that the current crop of sub-$300 units don't successfully wash the stage in color, in my facility, with my hybrid rig in ways that suit my requirements. I fully agree that if I find something that works today it will work tomorrow, and that there are units from current crop of LEDs that are up to the task. I can't say the same thing about units from 3 years ago. YMMV.


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## Eriksrocks (Dec 20, 2011)

len said:


> Since you're a HS student, are you buying these or is the school buying them? If it's the school, they probably won't want to consider used, since used lighting doesn't come with a warranty and if it's a capitol (or is it capital) expense they might be required to get bids.



The school is buying them, but it's not a capital expense type of thing. We need this for a small, one-act style show that will travel to different venues this winter, so they will be purchased with the show's budget since we have almost no set this year. The idea to buy used was actually thrown out by our facilities manager, so I don't think they are opposed to it.

The idea to buying used is that we can get better fixtures for the same amount of money without sacrificing much. Isn't there very little risk in buying used LED's? Sure, there's no warranty, but aren't they typically extremely durable? No lamps to break, no moving parts, extremely long LED lamp life, etc.?


len said:


> Puck lights are just a design style and the name has become generic, like Kleenex. Everybody makes puck lights, or slim pars, or whatever brand name they're called by. When it comes to LED, I don't see any difference vs. a par can with the same amount and quality of diodes.


Ah, I was specifically referring to the Blizzard Lighting Puck RGBAW.


len said:


> As for LED par cans, you can order them with different beam spreads. That may be an asset vs. a batten. Or not. Do you want to see beams or do you want a more even wash?



Wash. Asides from the fact that they're going to be uplighting drapes (although I know you can do a beam/wash stylistic choice there), 4 wash lights will be a lot more useful in other situations than 4 narrow-beamed fixtures IMO.


len said:


> There's a couple products on the market that look like diffusion gel. I think Elation makes some, which also might be a way to go to provide that wash look from a LED par. However, not all led par/puck, etc., have a way to mount gel successfully, so that may enter into your decision as well.


A gel slot would be nice but obviously in the case of battens and other fixtures without a gel frame, we can always just gaff tape gel over the face if needed...


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## Eriksrocks (Dec 20, 2011)

sk8rsdad said:


> Buying used is a bad plan for a theatrical wash LED. The assumption is last year's model is good enough for the next 10 year. The rapid evolution of LED means that any fixture more than 2 years old it is obsolete, and any fixture more than 3 years old is generations behind the current stuff. If you are making a capital investment in stage lighting for a facility, plan for a 10 year investment.
> 
> LED fixtures with comparable performance tend to cluster into one of four tiers. Comparing between the tiers yields misleading results. A Blizzard Puck is not the same as a Color Kinetics, even if they have the same number of LEDs and both claim to be RGBAW. Depending on the system, there will be additional costs in cabling and external power supplies.
> 
> ...


 I think I have to agree with some of the other posters here.

We have an inventory of Altman fresnels that are literally 30 years old. All the paint is gone, etc. Sure they are not the latest and greatest and sometimes the lamp housings are janky, and if I could I would much rather have an inventory of the new S4 fresnels. But they still get the job done and light the stage.

I recognize that whatever we buy now is going to be obsolete in a few years. But ultimately my constraints are:

We need to buy something now.
It needs to be under $350/fixture

Given these circumstances, if you were *forced* to buy, what fixture would you choose?

Honestly I doubt whatever we buy will be used to wash the stage in either of our two venues in the near future. We're only buying 4 so that's not really enough even with bright fixtures. A far more likely scenario is them being used to accent scenery or stage peices, possibly from within. This is where a batten fixture might turn out to be a much better form factor for us.


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## Kelite (Dec 20, 2011)

Eriksrocks said:


> Ah, I was specifically referring to the Blizzard Lighting Puck RGBAW.


 
Be mindful that comparing this 10W Blizzard fixture with a 36W TyLED or the 54W Apollo Multiform fixtures is comparing apples to bananas to cherry tomatoes. Get a demo of those you're truly interested in prior to deciding which to purchase. (You'll be glad you did!)


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## derekleffew (Dec 20, 2011)

Eriksrocks said:


> ...The idea to buying used is that we can get better fixtures for the same amount of money without sacrificing much. Isn't there very little risk in buying used LED's? Sure, there's no warranty, but aren't they typically extremely durable? No lamps to break, no moving parts, extremely long LED lamp life, etc.? ...


One of the issues with LEDs is getting the colors to match among fixtures, even when new, just out of box, and even with some of the most expensive. While a given fixture may state the LED life is 20,000 or 50,000 hours, intensity lessens with age/use. One of the problems when buying used is what if you get a unit that was blue at full for most/all of its life and put it next to a fixture that was red?


Eriksrocks said:


> ...Wash. Asides from the fact that they're going to be uplighting drapes (although I know you can do a beam/wash stylistic choice there), 4 wash lights will be a lot more useful in other situations than 4 narrow-beamed fixtures IMO. ...


Be aware that many fixtures, even those labeled "wash", in order to kep the intensity numbers up, have a very narrow beam angle, as low as 10°. See below.


Eriksrocks said:


> ... A gel slot would be nice but obviously in the case of battens and other fixtures without a gel frame, we can always just gaff tape gel over the face if needed...


Taping on gel, or more likely diffusion, yields different results than diffusion or a lenticular film in the gel holder. Not sure why, but it does. I've never had good results taping any diffusion media to the front of an LED fixture. A top hat or barn door, while it doesn't (usually) help with beam shaping, can help to hide the source, which is generally desirable, as no one wants to look at a bunch of RGB dots on the face of a fixture.


Eriksrocks said:


> ... Given these circumstances, if you were *forced* to buy, what fixture would you choose? ...


Only because they're what I have experience with, and I'm not sure they will meet your price point, used CK ColorBlast12 or Coemar ParLite. Or go the other route and buy ultra-cheap (Irradiant/Weidamark, etc.) and treat them as disposable.


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## emac (Dec 20, 2011)

I would also check out the K9 pup or bulldog. 

They go for about 200ish and they work great as up lights. They also come in either 25 or 45 degree beam spreads. 

They are only RGB and are par shaped but they produce one of the best whites (at least from the bulldog) that I have seen out of a RGB unit. 


Pup- $185.00
http://www.pnta.com/lighting/fixtures/par/k9-pup-25-lens/

Bulldog- $375.00
http://www.pnta.com/lighting/fixtures/par/k9-bulldog-25-lens/


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## zmb (Dec 20, 2011)

emac said:


> I would also check out the K9 pup or bulldog.
> 
> They go for about 200ish and they work great as up lights. They also come in either 25 or 45 degree beam spreads.
> 
> ...


The bulldog is RGBW.
Gotta love the names coming from PNTA. For non-Seattle area people, PNTA is short for Pacific Northwest Theatre Associates and is a major local distrubutor and they like the dog theme with stuff, they're catalog is called the "Dogalog" and the logo has a pawprint in it.


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## Pie4Weebl (Dec 20, 2011)

emac said:


> I would also check out the K9 pup or bulldog.
> 
> They go for about 200ish and they work great as up lights. They also come in either 25 or 45 degree beam spreads.
> 
> ...


 
Looks like every other chinese par, just with a different sticker on it. Derek would you really recommend Color Blasts which would require an external power supply to work?


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## derekleffew (Dec 21, 2011)

Pie4Weebl said:


> ...Derek would you really recommend Color Blasts which would require an external power supply to work?


Yes, I would. 

The ColorBlast is probably the oldest quality LED fixture out there, and thus are readily available on the used market.
Trying to meet a price point. Although I'm not sure one can get a PSU + 4 units + cables for $1200, even used.
The central, external power supply offers many advantages:
You only have to supply AC to one device.
You only have to provide DMX to one device.
You only have to address one device.


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## hobbsies (Dec 21, 2011)

I came here to mention basically what Derek said about LED's fading in quality, and trying to match like colors. The ADJ par64 LEDs I've used have serious problems matching colors, especially blue. These are super cheap units ($125 per) but even the more expensive ones have the same issue. You have to make sure you get units made from the same batch so the LEDs match colors. Also, they decay in brightness over time, so if you buy used make sure they were all from the same theatre. Don't mix new and used.

I've had some success taping R104 in front of them to help spread their beam, as they only have like a 25 or 30 degree beam angle. 

Oh and watch out for the "wash" and "spot" labels manufacturers put on units. Wash really only means you can't get a sharp edge on the beam, doesn't mean it's going have a big beam angle.


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## church (Dec 21, 2011)

While the LEDs themselves may last a long time it is not unusual for the power supplies to need repair long before you need to change a LED. The switch mode power supplies used in these fixtures can have problems with the electrolytic capacitors - due to the heat generated inside the fixture. I have repaired a number of PSUs on different makes of LED fixtures. The problem with colour matching can often be fixed by adjusting the power supply output voltage, ideally the voltage should be the same on each fixture, although I have adjusted a batch of fixtures to have the same colour which required slightly different voltages for each fixture. This is not an adjustment you should be attempting unless you now your way around electronic circuits. The LEDs are constant voltage and constant current devices and the control and power circuits are designed to provide this. Note changing the voltage also changes the intensity.


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## dj41354 (Dec 21, 2011)

derekleffew said:


> Taping on gel, or more likely diffusion, yields different results than diffusion or a lenticular film in the gel holder. Not sure why, but it does. I've never had good results taping any diffusion media to the front of an LED fixture. A top hat or barn door, while it doesn't (usually) help with beam shaping, can help to hide the source, which is generally desirable, as no one wants to look at a bunch of RGB dots on the face of a fixture.



The material to use in front on a LED fixture is "Luminit".. here's a link to a catalog page: http://www.luminitco.com/files/u1/Cat_LSDs_pg1.jpg 
It's expensive, but it's a real lens, not a diffuser. It bends the light, and comes in a variety of beam angles, including asymmetrical variations that have different beam angles for vertical & horizontal. You can get samples in 8.5x11" sheets and scissor cut it to fit. Use Luminit to turn a narrow beam fixture into a "wash" fixture, or to blend the output of a fixture with descrete LEDs.

If you get some samples, experiment by shining a laser pointer through the material, you'll be able to "see" the effect of the lensing (the resulting beam angles). amazing stuff.


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## Kelite (Dec 21, 2011)

I have 8"x8" cuts of 10*, 20*, and 30* on fixtures beside my desk right now. This product is simply amazing and works very well with todays' LED equipment-


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## len (Dec 21, 2011)

dj41354 said:


> The material to use in front on a LED fixture is "Luminit".. here's a link to a catalog page: http://www.luminitco.com/files/u1/Cat_LSDs_pg1.jpg



Any comparison to that Elation stuff?


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## derekleffew (Dec 21, 2011)

len said:


> Any comparison to that Elation stuff?


I'm not positive, but I believe Selador, ChromaQ, and Elation all buy from Luminit.


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## Kelite (Dec 21, 2011)

One in the same, Len.

(*edit- and Derek.)


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## Kelite (Dec 21, 2011)

Black magic, voodoo filter? Not really, but the product works extremely well for LED units.

Figuring how much beam dispersion to add to achieve the beam dispersion desired is interesting. In less fancy terms, the resultant degree beam dispersion is the square root of (primary lens squared) plus (Luminit beam angle squared). 

For Example- 25* beam spread plus 20* beam dispersion filter = (25* x 25* = 625) add (20* x 20* = 400) = 1025 square root = 32* beam dispersion.


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## derekleffew (Dec 21, 2011)

Kelite said:


> ...Figuring how much beam dispersion to add to achieve the beam dispersion desired is interesting. In less fancy terms, the resultant degree beam dispersion is the square root of (primary lens squared) plus (Luminit beam angle squared).
> 
> For Example- 25* beam spread plus 20* beam dispersion filter = (25* x 25* = 625) add (20* x 20* = 400) = 1025 square root = 32* beam dispersion.


As Squarecrow once said, "The square root of the hypotenuse is equal to the square root of the sum of the squares of the two opposite sides." If I only had a brain. 

No accounting for distance between, lenses Kelite?; as in the formula:
*EFL= (f1*f2)/(f1+f2-d)*,
where
EFL=Effective Focal Length,
f1=Focal Length of Lens1,
f2=Focal Length of Lens2,
d=Distance between Lenses.
(See also Gullstrand's Equation.)


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## Eriksrocks (Dec 26, 2011)

Thanks for all the advice. One thing I did want to comment on:


derekleffew said:


> Only because they're what I have experience with, and I'm not sure they will meet your price point, used CK ColorBlast12 or Coemar ParLite. Or go the other route and buy ultra-cheap (Irradiant/Weidamark, etc.) and treat them as disposable.


 
We're a high school with a limited budget, we can't really afford to treat anything as disposable. Any units that we do buy we'll try to make last as long as possible and use them as well as we can. FWIW.


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