# Batteries...



## photoatdv

Two questions...

1. Is there a difference between Energizer (or Duracell or Panasonic) Industrial and the normal ones?

2. What voltage is considered "dead"? I just got a bunch of used-for-a-show mic batteries from one of my jobs. They are mostly between 1.3 and 1.5v (AA).


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## Soxred93

2. When they no longer power what you want them to power.


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## Van

I've thought for a long time that the only major difference between the standard and "industrial" versions of most batteries is bulk packaging. I do not know if they have a higher amp/hour.

I would consider any alkaline battery that is supplying 1.25v or less as dead, especially in mics or any wireless gear. Put it in a clock, or anything else and it may be fine. The biggest thing to remember about alkaline batteries is they have a very steep end of life power curve. They are designed to put out as much voltage as possible for a given time then they die extremely quickly.


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## Studio

Not to hijack the thread but because this is in general advice I would recommend that everyone use rechargeable batteries. It saved my school a ton of money. If you are unsure if a battery is dead throw it on the charger. They are a bit costly to purchase chargers and batteries but the batteries last a long time.


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## gafftaper

I have a friend who used to be an engineer, designing batteries for one of the major battery manufacturers. I'll ask her and let you know what she says. 

I do know that there is absolutely NO difference between Duracell and Energizer standard alkaline batteries and the cheap store brand alkaline batteries you get at places like Costco and Walmart. They are all made in the same factory and just get a different label on them. I would suspect that the same is true of the industrial model but I'll check.


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## sstolnack

Studio said:


> Not to hijack the thread but because this is in general advice I would recommend that everyone use rechargeable batteries. It saved my school a ton of money. If you are unsure if a battery is dead throw it on the charger. They are a bit costly to purchase chargers and batteries but the batteries last a long time.


 
as a lighting tech, I don't claim to know anything about sound, but the sound tech in my theatre will NEVER use rechargable batteries for wireless mics, apparently they cause problems. I don't exactly know what the problems were, but I would be cautious in using them, make sure you rehearse with them enough that you know they are trustworthy.


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## ship

Industrial batteries such as the Duracell ProCell or Energizer Industrial are the only batteries the industry use from what I can tell even after a few years of industrial grade re-chargables tried. No doubt that modern rechargables for a budget are a better option and more dependable where it won't really piss off production if a few batteries start going bad and the talent has to get a quick change. 

Bigger productions can afford to use batteries once or twice in relying on them aways working and if they don't it is a huge problem. Used to be after a show or two, you now had Walkman batteries.. not so useful at this point as a concept in not being either cost effective or good for the environment but dependable still.

What ever the case, don't forget to recycle such batteries when bad.


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## JChenault

My understanding is that there are differences in rechargeable in terms of output voltage, discharge rate, and reliability.

A nicad battery does not put out the same voltage as an alkaline. The alkaline puts out 1.5 volts. The nicad about 1.35.

The alkaline battery slowly drops it's voltage as it is used. The nicad stays closer to full voltage then quickly goes to nothing.

After a while nicad batteries stop taking a good charge. There is no way ( as far as I know) to pre-test the battery to see if it will hold a charge. Alkaline batteries are more reliable in this regard.


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## kiwitechgirl

sstolnack said:


> as a lighting tech, I don't claim to know anything about sound, but the sound tech in my theatre will NEVER use rechargable batteries for wireless mics, apparently they cause problems. I don't exactly know what the problems were, but I would be cautious in using them, make sure you rehearse with them enough that you know they are trustworthy.



Really? Most of the noise boys here have no problems with them, and we've been using them for years now. They do stop taking charge eventually, but our sound operator puts a meter across them when they come off the charger if he's at all suspicious. We bought new ones a year ago and they've had reasonable use since then (six shows a week for 3 months, then six shows a week for five weeks mid-year, and they're now onto the second 3-month stint) and they've been absolutely faultless. We did buy decent ones (Sanyo Eneloop) and despite the fact they're actually rated at 1.2v rather than 1.5, our Sennheiser radio mic packs have no issues with them.


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## shiben

Well, around here Duracell pro-Cells are the only batteries trusted, pulled every time the packs drop 2 bars on the battery indicator. Now as to if they last longer, the answer is yes, based on my oh-so scientific testing using an Xbox 360 controller. I can get nearly twice as much play time with the pro cells as opposed to regular ones. I also use pro cells exclusively on all my personal stuff, excepting my Surefire, which takes special Surefire lithium batteries. I really wish they could extend the life on those from 11 hours to maybe 50 or so...


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## gafftaper

Just checked with my friend who used to be a battery engineer for Duracell. It's been a few years so she can't speak to the current line but she's pretty sure that it's the same formulation as the regular line. Just packaged in bulk. Again she said they made a Lot of store brand batteries and just changed the label.


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## waynehoskins

Several years ago my college theatre and my church got, at about the same time, a super good deal on some off brand batteries. One was labeled "Fred's Super Batteries", and I forget the other, and I don't remember which is which. At college we were about to put up a musical, so we used the Fred's (or whatever the other one was) batteries for a rehearsal. One rehearsal, fresh from the cardboard tray they came on, and every blessed one of them was completely dead by intermission. We had similar luck with the ones at the church.

A couple of years ago I was going with the band to a gig, probably a church gig, and needed a 9V battery for one of the wireless thingies. Picked up a Danelectro-badged battery for too much money at the Guitar Center (they got things like strings and picks). "Vintage formulation" and "better tone" were the selling points on this battery's packaging, which was a huge red flag. Yep, dead in a half hour.

I've heard for some time that the Copper Tops and the Procells are the same inside; same for regular Energizer and Industrials. I trust them all about equally.

I don't use rechargeables for several reasons. Everything I use them in (and it's three radio kits at the church, one battery change a week) uses 9V batteries, and until only recently we weren't able to manufacture a rechargeable battery in that package that had enough terminal voltage. I've heard the bleeding-edge designs can. That's strike one. Two, even for 1.5V cells they're relatively new (10 years) to the market. The last one is trust.

I don't trust the technology yet, even for the 1.5V cells, not enough to rely on it. Other guys do trust it and have several years of cost savings and reliable service to back it up. More than the technology, I don't trust me, because you have to put the batteries on the charger and keep up with hot and dead batteries. I trust a Procell. It comes directly out of the box, only then does the cap come off (and the cap goes straight into the trashcan), and directly into the device the battery goes. I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that I have a hot fresh battery in there that I can trust for X hours of continued service.

I did have an interesting encounter with Energizer Industrials the other month. I pulled some, with the caps on them, from a box in our workbox at the shop. Just for grins (I never do this) I put a voltmeter on one just before I was going to put it in a transmitter. Less than 7 volts. Two others, caps still on, terminal voltages way less than 8; I think one was 5 point something. Uber dead. That's either attributable to shelf life (no idea how old these were) or to prior use (and the last user, many months ago, put the caps back on heavily-used batteries). While I don't blame that on Energizer, since they probably were just used and recapped, I can say I haven't had such a failure with a Procell.

Batteries are cheap insurance. At the end of the day, it all comes down to which battery you trust.


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## gafftaper

Just want to clarify a couple of things that have come up before in this discussion. My Friend worked for Duracell and said that most of the ALKALINE, major store brand batteries are exactly the same as the standard Duracell/Energizers. No, you shouldn't buy the dollarstore batteries, "Fred's Batteries, or any "heavy duty" batteries. However major store brand's are often okay. For example: Costco, Wallmart, Sam's Club, my friend specifically mentioned CSV being made exactly the same as Duracell alkalines. These major store brands are all mass produced by either Duracell or Energizer on the same assembly line using the same internal materials. Yes you should test them first of course. Personally I've been using the Costco AA's for years... about 11 or 12 cents each and they have a great life. I've also bought a lot of Rayvac and Wallmart brand 9 volts. I've never noticed a difference in life vs. the Durcell/Energizers. 

In recent years there is a whole new class of super batteries. These definitely pack more charge in them than the standard alkalines. But they cost a lot more too. I'm not saying a Costco AA is the same as one of the new super lithium batteries. 

As for wireless mics and rechargables: Modern wireless mics are quite a bit more efficient than the old ones were. Many of them get more than 8 hours of life. These new mics are also great with GOOD rechargeable batteries. Do your homework and find good NiMH batteries with the highest mAh capacity. There is a great variety of mAh so be careful. Not researching the mAh on a rechargeable battery is like buying lamps without knowing the lumen output. Buy two sets of batteries, keep one in the charger. You are set.


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## Chris15

Ok, let's correct a couple of things that have been said that aren't quite right and then we'll move to my opinions...
NiCd batteries have a cell voltage of 1.2v vs 1.5v of an alkaline.
NiCd also suffer memory effect if not treated in the correct way
A "heavy duty" battery is a Carbon Zinc battery, a completely different chemistry to an alkaline battery and thus with different discharge characteristics.

Metering a battery just using a meter and the test leads is for the most part a waste of time. Yes it will pick up some dead batteries but it is also liable to produce many a false positive. See what happens is as the battery dies it's internal resistance increases. When you meter with a DMM and no load there is minimal current and thus minimal voltage drop across said internal resistance. But when you apply a load, that internal resistance comes into play and you have a voltage divider established. Thus the correct way to test a battery involves using a dummy load and a meter. A 12v light globe or the like from an electronics retailer is a suitable sort of test load.

The question of rechargeables and reuse of batteries comes down to the level of production. Can you afford to lose the mic mid show? If not, then a fresh alkaline every show is the order of the day, sometimes with a battery change during interval as well. If it's less critical then rechargables or second use batteries are fine.

A TV show filming 12 hours a day can easily go through 200 batteries in a day... You don't want to know how many batteries will be consumed during the Vancouver Olympics...


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## gafftapegreenia

We've been using ProCells. Again while the guts are likely all the same, I guess we don't mind paying for a bit of "security" in our power sources.


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## shiben

> .. You don't want to know how many batteries will be consumed during the Vancouver Olympics...



Actually I do. A lot. If anyone out there has a figure as to how many batteries they go through during the opening ceremony, I would be very interested. I geek out over this kind of useless knowledge. It also makes me feel better when i throw out 20 AAs a day for a show.


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## Chris15

shiben said:


> Actually I do. A lot. If anyone out there has a figure as to how many batteries they go through during the opening ceremony, I would be very interested. I geek out over this kind of useless knowledge. It also makes me feel better when i throw out 20 AAs a day for a show.



Are we going to include the mass monitoring FM receivers? The Beijing ceremonies had some 12 THOUSAND of them and so the battery numbers are going to add up very quickly. Good thing most batteries are made in China then ey?


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## shiben

Sure, why not. Also, what brand they use and how often they change theirs out. I just think it would be interesting to figure out how much they paid for batteries alone.


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## Cashwalker

And then find out what they do with all the waste batteries. (Toss or recycle?) Might be a good idea for one of the investigative news segments.


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## tech2000

I have found that using "store brand" batteries like those from safeway or other places do not last as long as energizer or duracell-even if they are supposedly made the same.


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## firewater88

Chris15 said:


> The question of rechargeables and reuse of batteries comes down to the level of production. Can you afford to lose the mic mid show? If not, then a fresh alkaline every show is the order of the day, sometimes with a battery change during interval as well. If it's less critical then rechargables or second use batteries are fine.



As a LEED Certified Theatre, we do use rechargeable batteries in our wireless mics. I have had several over the years and I always buy new at the start of every year. The last set I bought are Rayovac Hybrid NiMH 1.2V Rechargeable. They can recharge like all recharge batteries, but have a longer shelf life once charged. I still get 8 hours out of a wireless unit with these. They do take a good 8 hours for a charge, which can be a pain in the rear. The ones I used for the past 3 years were 15min charge Rayovac's. That was nice to have a full charge in 15, but the overall life I think was not that good.
For the high school shows that come through here, I usually do make them provide their own batteries. We ALWAYS live up to use one show and toss in a box. I use the partial used batteries for rehearsals and short presentations or take home for the kids toys. All dead batteries go into a bucket for recycling.
The last show we used the Sams brand batteries and have had good results out of them. The director said they changed they package count of the Energizers there and for the $$ the store brands offered a better deal. When we rent mics, they always provide a pack of Procells, so I know that is what that audio company uses.
The new mics I have now have a manufacturer designed battery pack and a charging base that you put the whole mic (pack or handheld) into for charging. It can even condition the battery when needed. Or the units can take 2 AA's, whichever.


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## dannymusic

any thoughts on 9V. I've used DIGIMATE with good results for 3-4 hours, but wondering if any better.


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## Blacksheep0317

sstolnack said:


> as a lighting tech, I don't claim to know anything about sound, but the sound tech in my theatre will NEVER use rechargable batteries for wireless mics, apparently they cause problems. I don't exactly know what the problems were, but I would be cautious in using them, make sure you rehearse with them enough that you know they are trustworthy.


 
it all has to do with the materials that the batteries are made out of and the discharge curves. As well as the fact that the discharge curve in a rechargable will actually change depending on how you condition them and their age. Too many variables for my taste.


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## mrjonas

We've experimented with a wide variety of brands. Generally, Duracell and Energizer last about the same length for us. Most "off brands" flat out sucked with the exception of Member's Mark AA's from Sam's Club which worked fairly well. Then my rep at Full Compass recommended the Varta brand. VARTA - System Alkaline AA Now we can get two full musicals out of them for our UHF-R wireless and still have juice left over to use for rehearsals. They've been fantastic for us and well worth the slightly higher cost. Just my 2 cents.

On the rechargeable note, we perform in multiple venues and it's easier to carry a box of Vartas rather than 20+ battery chargers.


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## ejsandstrom

My understanding is that with the Pro grade labeled batteries the differences are
1. They are bulk packed
2. They tend to be fresher because they are only sold by industrial retailers and online retailers. I.E. they dont sit on the shelf like at a retail.
3. They are cheeper per battery, due to the bulk nature. 
Other than that they are exactly the same.


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## ruinexplorer

If you are concerned about the environment, but don't trust recharcheable batteries, I saw an eco friendly battery at this year's CES conference. The Eco-Alkaline battery is comparable to other alkaline batteries and fully degradeable. 

I also saw a place that figured out how to recharge regular alkaline batteries, but I don't have that info right now (based out of Australia, don't know about distribution).


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## zmb

ruinexplorer said:


> If you are concerned about the environment, but don't trust rechargeable batteries, I saw an eco friendly battery at this year's CES conference. The Eco-Alkaline battery is comparable to other alkaline batteries and fully degradeable.


Look for battery recycling in your area, many places take the rechargeables that don't work for free, Staples and Home Depot in my area do and I would imagine the same in the rest of the US, but you might have to look for alkaline battery recyclers.


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## ruinexplorer

All of the Batteries Plus stores that I have gone to recycle all batteries. I was even able to take old deep-cycle marine batteries that had been left behind and they didn't chare a fee. Also, the Ikea stores do a ton of recycling (including your compact flourescents).


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## gafftaper

Radio Shack and Staples recycle rechargeable batteries.


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## NHSTechCrew

Studio said:


> Not to hijack the thread but because this is in general advice I would recommend that everyone use rechargeable batteries. It saved my school a ton of money. If you are unsure if a battery is dead throw it on the charger. They are a bit costly to purchase chargers and batteries but the batteries last a long time.


 

I have finally convinced my school to use rechargeable batteries. We have so many people come through our auditorium that it is impossible to go out and buy batteries for every event. We use rechargeable for almost everything. They're great and have saved lots of money for our auditorium.

BUT, for our plays and musicals we use rechargeable in rehearsal but during the performance we use the throw away batteries. We put fresh ones in after every performance. This is because throw aways are way more reliable to last for a guaranteed amount of time.


-Patrick


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## philhaney

firewater88 said:


> They do take a good 8 hours for a charge, which can be a pain in the rear. The ones I used for the past 3 years were 15min charge Rayovac's. That was nice to have a full charge in 15, but the overall life I think was not that good.



The slower you recharge a battery, the better it is for the battery. They will last longer between recharges, and you won't have to replace them as often.


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## EustaceM

Rechargables or non-rechargables? Which ones are better for a performance?


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## FACTplayers

EustaceM said:


> Rechargables or non-rechargables? Which ones are better for a performance?


 
Rechargeable batteries carry a maximum voltage of 1.2v while non-recharable batteries carry a maximum voltage of 1.5v (excluding 9v). Some wireless mics don't work too well with 1.2v and the low bat light comes on. 

It is considered bad practice to use rechargeable batteries; however, I have found that the energizer rechargeables work great with the wireless mics I have. After two shows I paid off the batteries. I'm very careful to test them prior to each performance to ensure they aren't losing their charge capacity. They do not experience memory effect, which is a huge plus.

All-in-all, do a little research and make up your own mind, but non-rechargeable batteries are the industry's choice because they are more reliable and less maintenance.


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## dvsDave

I just saw this article on Wired and thought I would post it here. Normally I don't necropost, but this seems appropriate. Are Expensive Batteries Worth the Extra Cost? | Wired Science | Wired.com


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## mozsey

Studio said:


> Not to hijack the thread but because this is in general advice I would recommend that everyone use rechargeable batteries. It saved my school a ton of money. If you are unsure if a battery is dead throw it on the charger. They are a bit costly to purchase chargers and batteries but the batteries last a long time.



Rechargable batteries have a weird power curve. You don't get consistent power throughout the whole life of the charge. It drops off considerably near the end of it's life. While you can save money on batteries, you don't get the consistent time that you are going to need in the end.


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