# counterweight systems and paying for them



## NHStech (Dec 9, 2009)

A couple of seemingly unrelated questions, but they both deal with my situation. 1) Our counterweight system of 25 lines has 18 lines on the main floor. Presently it is in a cage (the other seven are in a platform about 8 ft off the ground). That is, there is chain link fencing around it, with about maybe 1.5-2 ft of clearance between the fence and the lock bar. The cage is about 8 ft high. There are no padlocks on the locks (old system), which is why I am assuming the fence is there (was in place before I got there). There is a gate that slides open at about line 18, but at about line 13, there is a pole that supports the platform where the other lines are. There is only about 6" of clearance around it on either side, meaning, if you have a runaway ay line 8 or nine (on the other side of the pole from the gate), and you are me (big belly), you are in trouble. We will be having the ropes and locks replaced soon, and the locks will have places for padlocks to go. I want the fencing removed, and put padlocks in place so A) There is more maneuverability around the lines, and B) we can get out of the way from runaways quicker. My principal is worried kids will be in there and play with the ropes - climb up on them, etc. and could cause some sort of liability issue. His fear is that if something were to happen, and it came out in court we did have a fence there, that we would lose because a preventative measure was in place that was removed. There are kids in there a lot, and sometimes left unsupervised. I won't get into that, because I suppose the obvious solution is to make sure kids aren't in there unsupervised. If this is not possible, though, who is right, here? The principal or me? How many of you have fences around your fly rail? Is this a good idea or not? 

B) Does anyone know if the sinking fund schools get in Michigan would cover the cost of replacing the ropes/locks of a fly system?

Thanks for your help in these matters!


----------



## erosing (Dec 9, 2009)

Yes, I've seen a few rails that are secured, but usually just access to the whole rail or midrale, as it may be. A nuisance at best, but with kids it does mark a clear boundry.

The biggest problem I see is that your space is not monitered well enough in that the principal needs to think that kids will climb the ropes. Do you not have locks on the entrances? Too many keys floating around the student body? No supervisor that gives a ****? 

Rigging is dangerous, it kills people. A theatre is not a jungle gym.


----------



## Van (Dec 9, 2009)

I'm sort of torn on this topic. I can see the liability issue and the desire to lock up access to the rail. At the same time, however, the area around it being that tight certainly is cause for alarm when working the system. If you don't have a mid-level loading bay I can only imagine how difficult taking out a batten with a drop or lights on it must be. It's a good thing I'm not a lawyer so I can say things like, " Rip down the fence, put locks on the brakes and if the little buggers start climbing the ropes then they deserve to get hurt."


----------



## Studio (Dec 9, 2009)

How about a fence that can be removed when you are doing a show then replaced during the school day and when you aren't doing a show.


----------



## mstaylor (Dec 9, 2009)

Or make the access to the platform removable. Instead of a fence to keep them out, remove access to the danger.


----------



## Footer (Dec 9, 2009)

Fence needs to go away. You don't need any more things impeding the vision of the person running the rail. 

Get locks put in. That should take care of the issue. As far as the "climbing on the ropes thing... What is stopping them currently from climbing on the fence?

If they want a fence or wall, you could secure the area with several 16' flats and a few motors....


----------



## Studio (Dec 9, 2009)

Footer said:


> Fence needs to go away. You don't need any more things impeding the vision of the person running the rail.
> 
> Get locks put in. That should take care of the issue. As far as the "climbing on the ropes thing... What is stopping them currently from climbing on the fence?



By the way he says support post it sounds like the fence has a roof _Presently it is in a cage_

I second that the fence needs to go away.

How are the kids getting to the ropes on stage. Sounds like their supervisors need a talking to. That or the theater needs to be locked.


----------



## rochem (Dec 9, 2009)

Interesting question. I've worked in many high school and professional theatres, and I've never actually seen an enclosed cage around the fly rail. I'd definitely agree with Footer and say get rid of the fence. If something were to ever happen where you needed to either get to the rail or run away from the rail as fast as possible, that cage would be a huge obstacle.

From my personal experiences as a full-time, professional high school student, I think you and your principal might be overcomplicating the issue a bit. At my high school, the theatre is locked about half the time, but if you wanted to get in there you could. We have no protective barrier around our fly rail, and we don't use padlocks on the rope locks, but as far as I know, we've never had a problem with someone deliberately vandalizing or misusing the system. Sure, to us theatre people, the fly system is a large, complex, and dangerous system, but to the average high school student, it's nothing too exciting. It's not very attractive, and it doesn't appear to be connected to anything shiny or loud. Assuming all your lines are properly weighted, I wouldn't expect much to happen. I'd be surprised if someone managed to figure out how to unlock the line, much less add or remove weight or do anything else that could incapacitate the system. 

As for kids climbing the ropes, again I really can't see someone wanting to do this. Even if they did, they probably wouldn't get very far before their extra weight started dragging the arbor up so that they weren't making any process. And finally, if they did have tremendous resilience and managed to successfully climb the line, then as Van said, they deserve what happens to them. Trying to climb up an unstable, moving rope up to the ceiling, without any protection of any kind, is something I would put on the same level as sticking a nail into an electrical outlet. Does your school have those little plastic covers on every outlet in the school? If a student decided to stick a nail in one of those, would your school get sued for not providing plastic covers on each and every outlet? As long as you have one or more large, readable signs warning to stay away from the rigging, you should be fine.


----------



## Studio (Dec 9, 2009)

If you have kids in the house section of the theater close the main and tell the teacher in charge that the kids are not to go onstage. My school has no locks or cage and we leave the doors to catwalks open in our small theater. We have had no problems with kids getting hurt.


----------



## Footer (Dec 9, 2009)

I have a feeling this fence was put in for a reason. Do you know the reason?


----------



## Chris15 (Dec 11, 2009)

Ultimately a question for the lawyers and risk management people...

Consider alternate options for restricting access, perhaps some roller shutters with removable mullions or some of that expanding trellis grille stuff they use for shop windows (down here at least). You need something that can be brought completely clear of the rail when it's in use...


----------



## shiben (Dec 11, 2009)

To be honest, I have never really seen a fly system secured with padlocks or a fence. Usually the danger - qualified persons only sign is enough. I kind of agree with rochem, its tough to climb a rope like that. And yeah, it doesnt look to be a particularly interesting system from the ground, just a bunch of ropes and boxy type things, its not like a high ropes course in the gym that looks fun to play on. If people bringing in battens is a problem, and you have a loading gallery, maybe put rope locks up there too? A local HS here in GR has locks on the rail and in the gallery, and if you didnt want a line used lock it up there and it would take a person rather determined to cause issues to figure out why it wasnt moving (obviously this is just for between show times, when no one is in there and nothing is on it).


----------



## Footer (Dec 11, 2009)

Locks are actually pretty common. Almost all newer rope locks have a place for at least a padlock. Clancy makes they little swing thing for their older locks that works like a lock out/tag out system. 

If I can, I tend to lock off electrics and masking for any show with an active rail. It just takes one more thing out of the mix of what could go wrong.


----------



## shiben (Dec 11, 2009)

Thats kind of cool, and a good idea. Running to get that tight fly cue, its pretty clear which one it is, its the one without a padlock!


----------



## Footer (Dec 11, 2009)

shiben said:


> Thats kind of cool, and a good idea. Running to get that tight fly cue, its pretty clear which one it is, its the one without a padlock!


SRS Makes a product called the Magic-Loc. Its kind of a cool product however it tends to lock up on spike tape pretty bad. However, it has an key lock built in. To lock it, you just push in the lock. To unlock, you need a key.


----------



## willbb123 (Dec 11, 2009)

Tiffin Scenic Studios, Inc.

The tiffin locks have a built in lock. Its nice being able to lockout the entire rig by just walking down the rail pushing the locks in.


----------



## Footer (Dec 11, 2009)

willbb123 said:


> Tiffin Scenic Studios, Inc.
> 
> The tiffin locks have a built in lock. Its nice being able to lockout the entire rig by just walking down the rail pushing the locks in.



My college's road house has those. Great locks. The lock was rather easy to push in. They got locked by accident once or twice. One more reason to do preshow checks....


----------



## rochem (Dec 11, 2009)

EDIT: Apparently I can't read


----------



## Footer (Dec 11, 2009)

rochem said:


> I'd hate to be the guy running the rail with these things installed...



That is a typical rope lock....


----------



## DuckJordan (Dec 17, 2009)

In our school district the high schools have a ring "lock" which only really just holds the brake up to the rope as to keep the brake engaged. I am not proud to have done this but it did need to be done. I had to climb a fly to get a jammed carriage loose from the back metal guide. Long story short. too much weight on a batten and not enough weight on the carriage. This whole business of locking up a fly rail seems silly to me as the first thing that kids look at in our theater is the act curtain. Most people who come into our theater don't even know that we have a fly rail installed in our 800 seat auditorium. its quite possible that some one would climb the ropes or mess with the system but as one of the above posts says: "do all the plugs have plastic caps on them?". frankly i feel that locking the fly system is just a nuisance because with my experience with flies its difficult to get people to lock the break let alone lock each one with a padlock or key.

as for the "cage" get rid of it. its more of a hazard than a safety feature.


----------

