# Nightowl Stage Lighting



## jonliles (Apr 14, 2015)

Has anyone had any business dealings with this organization? They have a potentially interesting LED product listed on eBay.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Nightowl-7x...063?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1e84b5aa87

Home page:
http://www.nightowlstagelighting.com


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## ship (Apr 15, 2015)

great name.... never heard of them.


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## techieman33 (Apr 15, 2015)

Monoprice has what looks to be the same/similar fixture for $109. They're both just generic lights with someones name slapped on them at the factory. I highly doubt they will compare with an ETC color source par, but depending on what your doing that might not really matter. Plan on buying an extra 20% or more for spares. You might be able to get parts for them in the future, and your might not. You might be able to buy the "same" fixture in the future or you may not. And even if you can the quality and color output change all the time so they won't match the old ones. For DJ's, uplighting, etc they would be fine. But I wouldn't buy them for a permanent install in a performance space unless I had no other options.


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## Jeff Lelko (Apr 16, 2015)

I discovered this brand a few days ago and thought about inquiring here - I guess you beat me too it! I have no doubt that Source 4 LEDs will outperform these in every way imaginable, BUT, if you don't need that kind of performance and/or can't justify $1000+ per instrument, these might be a way to go. I still want to say they fall into the disposable fixture category, but for the price, they'll pay for themselves in no time so even if they start failing after a year you've already made your money back. I guess the only way to see if they live up to their manufacturer's promises is to buy one and play with it. I agree 100% though that the quality control between these fixtures is probably on par with the other generic LED lights, so buy as many as you'll ever need in one go because you probably can't get the exact same thing twice! I'll be curious to follow this and see where things go.


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## robartsd (Apr 17, 2015)

Nightowl State Lighting doesn't seem to understand the meaning of the word "dealership", they list the suppliers that they a dealer for as "Nightowl Authorized Dealerships" on their sales page. A company claiming to have been in business but not being able to write competently on their website does not engender my confidence. They do state that they have a 1 year warranty on products that carry their brand name.


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## nightowlstagelighting (Sep 22, 2015)

robartsd said:


> Nightowl State Lighting doesn't seem to understand the meaning of the word "dealership", they list the suppliers that they a dealer for as "Nightowl Authorized Dealerships" on their sales page. A company claiming to have been in business but not being able to write competently on their website does not engender my confidence. They do state that they have a 1 year warranty on products that carry their brand name.



Respectfully, how would you know the status of our dealerships? Sometimes manufacturers only sell to wholesalers who can not in turn sell to the public as with High End, they must use retail dealers, and that is what we are. IN other cases we only deal with the factory.

Authorized Dealership Definition: Authorized dealer means that the factory recognizes the dealer as one of their dealers, and that dealer buys direct from the factory. The advantage is that all factory warranties apply at any authorized warranty service center. Another advantage is that you know that you are receiving factory fresh merchandise. You get both with all equipment purchased new from Nightowl.

That is exactly what we are. Anything bought from us has a full factory warranty that can be serviced by any other authorized dealer. That's what it means, not sure what you think it means...


techieman33 said:


> Monoprice has what looks to be the same/similar fixture for $109. They're both just generic lights with someones name slapped on them at the factory. I highly doubt they will compare with an ETC color source par, but depending on what your doing that might not really matter. Plan on buying an extra 20% or more for spares. You might be able to get parts for them in the future, and your might not. You might be able to buy the "same" fixture in the future or you may not. And even if you can the quality and color output change all the time so they won't match the old ones. For DJ's, uplighting, etc they would be fine. But I wouldn't buy them for a permanent install in a performance space unless I had no other options.



Again, respectfully, almost everything stated is not accurate.

1) We have a production share agreement with our factory in China that is the largest stage lighting manufacturer in China. They build lighitng for major btands such as Robe and Avolite.
2) We specify our own specifications and designs, we do not buy pallets of random lights.
3) We custom build every order to spec and keep those specs on file and can reproduce any previous order no matter what the software version or part numbers are used.
4) We only use Edison LED's for Pars, not Chinese knock offs, this requires a 65% import tariff imposed by the Chinese Government to encourage the use of the knock offs by Chinese manufacturers. This is why our costs are higher.
5) Most of our pars have master level settings so you can adjust newer pars to match older pars with lower output. This lets you adjust the maximum output per color changing what 100% means. We have never had anyone report a mismatch in output, even on pars bought years later.
6) We have permanent installs all over the country, Canada, and Central and South America, both architectural and performance, with excellent results. We also have many many touring companies using dozens of our lights at a time on tour, again with excellent results,
7) Because we build to order, we document every part number used in your lights and we can provide those parts long after the warranty is expired. Typically 5-7 years. We can even send PCB boards with the exact version of the software used when your order was manufactured.
8) The ETC ColorSource Par is an excellent fixture, we sell a lot of them despite the production delays. It is a 90 watt fixture, our 7X10 is obviously a 70 watt fixture, but comparing apples to apples (output) we have plenty of alternatives up to our 432 Watt 24X18 RGBWA-UV Par.

We do things a little differently, so I do understand where your assumptions are coming from, but times are changing, and the "generic par" is not always so generic anymore.

Scott Matarrese, Owner
Nightowl Stage Lighting, LLC
Lexington, KY


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## nightowlstagelighting (Sep 22, 2015)

Jeff Lelko said:


> I discovered this brand a few days ago and thought about inquiring here - I guess you beat me too it! I have no doubt that Source 4 LEDs will outperform these in every way imaginable, BUT, if you don't need that kind of performance and/or can't justify $1000+ per instrument, these might be a way to go. I still want to say they fall into the disposable fixture category, but for the price, they'll pay for themselves in no time so even if they start failing after a year you've already made your money back. I guess the only way to see if they live up to their manufacturer's promises is to buy one and play with it. I agree 100% though that the quality control between these fixtures is probably on par with the other generic LED lights, so buy as many as you'll ever need in one go because you probably can't get the exact same thing twice! I'll be curious to follow this and see where things go.



Hello, we are happy to provide par sample singles or pairs that are fully refundable for 30 days. Contact us via the website or eBay.

Scott Matarrese
Owner, Nightowl Stage Lighting
Lexington, KY


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## Les (Sep 22, 2015)

nightowlstagelighting said:


> Respectfully, how would you know the status of our dealerships? Sometimes manufacturers only sell to wholesalers who can not in turn sell to the public as with High End, they must use retail dealers, and that is what we are. IN other cases we only deal with the factory.
> 
> Authorized Dealership Definition: Authorized dealer means that the factory recognizes the dealer as one of their dealers, and that dealer buys direct from the factory. The advantage is that all factory warranties apply at any authorized warranty service center. Another advantage is that you know that you are receiving factory fresh merchandise. You get both with all equipment purchased new from Nightowl.
> 
> ...



Thanks for chiming in. I appreciate when manufacturers/dealers respond, even if its on the defense. It shows that you're actively protecting your brand, and usually speaks to the level of customer support provided (you care about your reputation).


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## Jeff Lelko (Sep 24, 2015)

nightowlstagelighting said:


> Hello, we are happy to provide par sample singles or pairs that are fully refundable for 30 days. Contact us via the website or eBay.
> 
> Scott Matarrese
> Owner, Nightowl Stage Lighting
> Lexington, KY



Yes, thanks for representing here! I may just take you up on that offer when I'm in the market for some new fixtures!


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## RideTheSquirrel (Feb 20, 2017)

Looking at purchases some lighting fixtures in the very near future. Ideally I'm thinking about layering in ETC color source pars over multiple years of purchasing. However, we have a surprise 3000 left over from some audio upgrades actually going as planned (no surprise "oh yeah, you need this too") so I'm trying to have a few options to consider. 

With that being said; has anybody had any experience with these fixtures (or company in general) 

http://www.nightowlstagelighting.com/led-pars.html

They have a few eBay listings that put me being able to get 12 of the 24X18 RGBAW-UV pars with flight cases for around the price I want to spend. That's pretty delicious, but I want to know how well these will color match, and if they truly dim like 16 bit capable fixtures should. Thanks for any information you can provide!


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## JohnD (Feb 20, 2017)

Did you see this:
https://www.controlbooth.com/threads/nightowl-stage-lighting.37753/
I personally would be concerned by no photometrics or downloadable users manual. Also interesting that they ship from Lexington KY from outside the US.


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## RideTheSquirrel (Feb 20, 2017)

Thanks for the search. I did. that post contains no one who's ever used any of their instruments, and only gives speculative feedback.


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## JohnD (Feb 20, 2017)

I did find one person who has used their lights.
http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,149912.msg1375303.html#msg1375303


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## Jeff Lelko (Feb 20, 2017)

What's interesting is that in the nearly two years since this thread has started, there have been a number of improvements in the world of LED lighting. This is to be expected, of course, and definitely works in our favor! More than likely I'll be shopping for some latest-model LED Pars before the years is out too, and the same question keeps coming to mind (Name Brand versus Artfox/NightOwl versus ebay). At this point in time, your best bet may in fact be going name brand unless you want a completely disposable $35 light fixture. It's impossible to say without seeing any kind of photometric data, but I'd expect the output of these fixtures to be right around the Chauvet SlimPar Pro Series level when comparing equivalent LED type and quantity. If you have a good relationship with a dealer and plan to buy enough fixtures, you might be surprised what kind of pricing you can get for the Chauvet product...and I say Chauvet because I'm very familiar with their products and actual pricing, but the same goes for ADJ, Blizzard, Elation, etc. A lot of the name brand products run silently too, if that's a point to consider as well. The decision is up to you, but at least in my case I'm happy to spend a little bit more money to get a real warranty and better product consistency.


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## nightowlstagelighting (Feb 21, 2017)

Jeff Lelko said:


> What's interesting is that in the nearly two years since this thread has started, there have been a number of improvements in the world of LED lighting. This is to be expected, of course, and definitely works in our favor! More than likely I'll be shopping for some latest-model LED Pars before the years is out too, and the same question keeps coming to mind (Name Brand versus Artfox/NightOwl versus ebay). At this point in time, your best bet may in fact be going name brand unless you want a completely disposable $35 light fixture. It's impossible to say without seeing any kind of photometric data, but I'd expect the output of these fixtures to be right around the Chauvet SlimPar Pro Series level when comparing equivalent LED type and quantity. If you have a good relationship with a dealer and plan to buy enough fixtures, you might be surprised what kind of pricing you can get for the Chauvet product...and I say Chauvet because I'm very familiar with their products and actual pricing, but the same goes for ADJ, Blizzard, Elation, etc. A lot of the name brand products run silently too, if that's a point to consider as well. The decision is up to you, but at least in my case I'm happy to spend a little bit more money to get a real warranty and better product consistency.



Hello,

I thought I would take a few minutes and respond to your post, you made a lot of assertions and speculations without ever actually using our equipment.

1) "Real" Warranty, we service warranties out of our Kentucky location. Any light with any issue, unless it is very minor, is replaced for one year. Minor issues may be repaired, but only if it is one minor issue with the unit Even shipping damage is handled by us, we replace the damaged fixtures regardless of the status of the damage claim with the shipper so the lights can be used.

2) Support, while our current website does not allow for downloading of files, our next version will. Regardless, we are always available, 24/7 for customers with issues. We can email you anything you need including photometric data, manuals, photo comparisons, and even electronic schematics. You don't even have to be a customer, we had the LD for the band Styx email us recently because she went into a venue in Upstate New York that had all Nightowl LED Pars. They had lost the DMX mapping and we got them up and running with their Hog before sound check. That is the kind of support you can expect from us.

3) Consistency, we use Edison LEDs for our Pars and Cree or Osram for our Moving Heads. Year to year LED consistency is on them, but we do not use Chinese LEDs. As for the rest of the light, we have your specs when you buy from us and we can recreate your lights years later even with the same software version. We use only one factory, with dedicated suppliers that do not change. None of our competitors can really do much more than that. I had a recent customer that had recently done a large ADJ order and over 50% of the pars had issues, some never resolved. No one has ever had that kind of experience with us. Our defect rate is below 2%, which is a major reason we offer exceptional warranty service, we can afford to.

4) Silent Pars, Nightowl offers two lines of silent pars, full sized and compact, from 7X15 RGBWA-UV all the way to 18X18 RGBWA-UV. These pars are available with IP65 weatherproof connections or XLR and Edison indoor connections. These are our best selling pars, we have sold over 1000 of the 18X15/18 alone.

5) New Tech, Nightowl is always at the front of the pack introducing new tech like COB Ellipsoidals, Fresnels, Crowd Blinders, Footlights, Pars, and Strip lights introduced last year. Also introduced were 150, 200, and 300 watt Spot moving heads with single pure white LEDs that are attractively priced.

Everyone had a right to their opinion, but we certainly do not agree with yours. If a customer would rather spend $625 for an ETC ColorSource 7X10 par or a Nightowl 7X10 par for $139 we will sell them either. We sell most major brands, and we make money either way. Every situation is different, and you can not make blanket statements on what's best, it's different for everyone. Without ever using one of our products, I fail to see why you commented at all, especially knowing so little about us.

Give us a call, request info via our website, check out a fully refundable sample, THEN tell people what you think.

Thank you

Scott Matarrese, Owner
Nightowl Stage Lighting LLC


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## RideTheSquirrel (Feb 21, 2017)

Scott,

I've called and left a message and reached out to you on via your website contact interface and have no responses. Could you guys get ahold of me, as I would like to place an order by this weekend if possible. Glad to see that you're an active part of this forum and I am glad to support your company.


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## nightowlstagelighting (Feb 21, 2017)

RideTheSquirrel said:


> Scott,
> 
> I've called and left a message and reached out to you on via your website contact interface and have no responses. Could you guys get ahold of me, as I would like to place an order by this weekend if possible. Glad to see that you're an active part of this forum and I am glad to support your company.



Hello, I am responding to you right now, sorry for the delay, we had a death in the Nightowl family, one of the founders. You should see a reply in a few minutes.

Thanks

Scott


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## TheaterEd (Feb 21, 2017)

nightowlstagelighting said:


> Hello, I am responding to you right now, sorry for the delay, we had a death in the Nightowl family, one of the founders. You should see a reply in a few minutes.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Scott


Hi Scott,

Thanks for coming back to defend your honor once more, and very sorry to hear of your loss. 


nightowlstagelighting said:


> 2) Support, while our current website does not allow for downloading of files, our next version will.



Have you considered just uploading the pdf's to google drive and linking to them on your webpage. Might be a decent way to get the info out while you wait for your new site to be ready. I personally know that I look through all the manuals and specs I can find on things before I make any purchasing decisions and the more readily available they are the better.


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## nightowlstagelighting (Feb 21, 2017)

TheaterEd said:


> Hi Scott,
> 
> Thanks for coming back to defend your honor once more, and very sorry to hear of your loss.
> 
> ...


Actually no, but that is a great suggestion, especially since we keep a Google account anyway for YouTube where we have video demos.


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## nightowlstagelighting (Feb 21, 2017)

nightowlstagelighting said:


> Actually no, but that is a great suggestion, especially since we keep a Google account anyway for YouTube where we have video demos.


Also, thank you for your condolences, Paul was just 53, and he was very good at what he did, Theater and corporate gigs especially. Huge loss personally and professionally.


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## Jeff Lelko (Feb 22, 2017)

Hi Scott,

I'm glad that you're not afraid to defend your product, though you appear to have taken what I've said personally and that was not the intent of my comments. Also, I am sorry to hear of your loss.

The point that I'm trying to raise for discussion isn't so much about the actual product that you sell as it is the nature of purchasing from "boutique" dealers within the industry. The only speculation I make is regarding the output of the lights - everything else is fairly objective and doesn't require ownership to point out. Please consider the following as constructive conversation and not a personal attack on you or your company in any way.

1) What I mean by a "real" warranty is that I can I deliver a defective product to any authorized repair center (or even a dealer in some cases) and have the unit repaired or replaced in a timely manner. I'm not saying that you don't do this, but as is the case with most boutique dealers, you only operate out of one shop in the entire country (as far as I can tell). That means any fixture with any issues is making the trip up and back to Kentucky and not in service making me money. Yes, I understand the need of having working spares and whatnot, but that's besides the point. No matter what, I'm in it for the long haul with you since I would no longer consider these fixtures to be at the disposable price point. In a few cases dealers/manufacturers have even overnighted replacement parts to me so that I don't have to pull the equipment in question out of service. In other cases I have been given loaner units while my defective unit was under repair. Given that you import straight from China, how many parts and working spares do you keep on hand for situations like these? Buying lights from users on AliExpress also claim to carry a warranty, though I have my doubts as to what the real value of that is. Let me ask this question another way... What if I decide to rent out a dozen or so lights that I purchase from you and they come back destroyed? No, of course that's not covered under warranty, but...had I gone name-brand, one call to a dealer and I'll have replacement units overnighted to me and they'll be ready to enter service alongside the rest of my inventory the next day. Do you stock enough inventory in the United States to be able to offer that kind of service? 

2) I'm glad to hear that the next revision of your website will allow for the downloading of fixture manuals and specifications. Being a business owner myself I understand that maintaining a website can be challenging and things that seem simple are usually far from it! As you can read further up in this thread, I'm not against purchasing product from you. In fact, I'm quite the opposite. I've been occasionally visiting your website for the past few years, yet hardly anything has changed on it - at least the product area that I always go to. To me, I find it hard to believe that I'm buying anything better than ebay quality lights when I can't even find a manual for what I'm buying or see what the DMX parameters are! Your website also seems to have mapping issues, which is slightly concerning to a prospective buyer. It's nice that you were able to provide this information to someone in need, but I hardly consider it "service" to provide resources that should be publicly available to anyone who might need it. You have some good advice already about how to possibly make this work, so I think it'd really be a boost to your credibility to get this going! I'm sure plenty of us would be happy to lend input if you run into trouble.

3) I still have my doubts, but that would be speculative. What I will say about product consistency is this - with most major brands I can buy or rent product anywhere in the country (or world in some cases) and rest assured what I get will match with what's already in my inventory. Yes, it's the right of the manufacturer to make changes to a unit as they see fit and once in a while I'll come across a matching unit with a few cosmetic differences, but generally speaking I don't have to worry about mismatching fixture performance issues in this situation (also see my points in paragraph 1 about needing to quickly deploy a replacement). 

4) The issue of fan noise was directed more to RideTheSquirrel who was considering such lights which have fans. I see that you offer several IP65 fixtures as well, which are the ones I've been eyeing for some time. The thing is though, 2 or 3 years ago that was a major selling point. Now more and more fixtures run silently and/or are IP65 and still quite affordable. Most also offer a much higher frequency than the 300Hz you list. 

5) Any response would just be more speculation on my end, so I'll let that one be...

Not mentioned earlier are rental and resale prospects. This would be highly dependent on the intended use by the buyer, but it generally helps to stock inventory that people have heard of, let alone if needing any rider acceptance.

Also not mentioned are any acceptable listings of your products such MET/ETL/UL/etc. 

You're welcome to not agree with me, though most of what I'm saying here isn't opinion. The fact is that over the past couple of years, ebay lights are getting better and cheaper all the time. Two years ago, it was hard to find something decent for under $100. Today, there are plenty of reasonable direct-from-China options that can be had for a fraction of that! No, they won't stand up to most name-brand fixtures, but for $35 I wouldn't expect it to! At the same time, name-brand manufacturers are also pushing the lower end of their inventory with very respectable options. Since you also sell name-brand fixtures, I know you can agree with what I say when I mention that your prices aren't too far off from the dealer cost of equivalent budget-name-brand fixtures. 

Scott, I'm not attacking your company at all! Believe me, I'd love to find a seller that is able to offer quality fixtures at low prices! Aren't we all? The hesitation I have relating to everything above is what goes along with buying from a boutique dealer. That's not a bad thing, and this industry has several such manufacturers that have carved out a nice niche for themselves. The catch is, to make the baggage of sorts that accompanies buying from one worth it, they have to offer something that no one else sells, or, offer their product at a steep discount while still delivering acceptable quality and reliability. Nothing personal, but I just don't see that here when I'd only be saving 10 or 15% from a mainstream supplier. Seeing essentially crickets when the question is asked of who has actually uses your product, I'd dare say that I'm not alone in my view of the situation. And yes, I do think I have every right to chime into a discussion involving a supplier that I was interested in purchasing from... Thanks for your attention.


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## RideTheSquirrel (Feb 22, 2017)

To all of those who are interested: I'm a "proof is in the pudding" kind of guy like the majority of everyone else. I have 12 brand new 24x18 RGBAW-UV units coming to me in flight cases as soon as I finalize everything with Scott tomorrow in the AM. I have decided that as my way to return a small portion on the abundance of information that these forums possess; I will be doing an in depth review all the way from the unwrapping of actual instruments themselves to the shipping times and customer service. 

I don't know if anybody else on this forum has purchased from them before so I think I'll be the first to provide an insight into the NightOwl brand company that is based off of my actual dealings as opposed to speculations. 

I'll keep you posted and likely start it's own thread.


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## nightowlstagelighting (Feb 22, 2017)

Jeff Lelko said:


> Hi Scott,
> 
> I'm glad that you're not afraid to defend your product, though you appear to have taken what I've said personally and that was not the intent of my comments. Also, I am sorry to hear of your loss.
> 
> ...



Hello,

First of all, thank you for your well thought out response, I do appreciate it. Also, please do not mistake my direct tone to mean offense was taken, not at all. We do not get much feedback from non customers, so this is VERY helpful to us. We just have to make it clear when people who have never used our stuff comment on us that we make that very clear.

First a few words to each of your counterpoints.

1) Ali Baba. Yes the factories offer warranties, but for almost all of them what they call a warranty is simply shipping you parts for one year then you are done. Also, if you buy two different items it will probably be from two different factories, with different policies. We back our products with a real fix or replace warranty you cant get from China because it is more expensive to ship a light back than to simply buy another one, and if Chinese customs seizes your shipment, you lose it with no recourse because they will create a bill that is more than the value of the items just because they can. That has happened to us several times when we send lights back for inspection to verify a problem. As for loaners, we retain a decent number of our popular products, and we loan them all the time. We also have a deal with DHL where we can ship from the factory in 2 or 3 days to anywhere in the US. Part of the value added with us is that we deal with all of that, Chinese Customs, US customs, Damage Claims, etc. and we do whatever we can to keep our customers up and running. Hell, Bandit only has 3 locations, and one is fairly new. High End is factory serviced out of just two reliable locations, Creative and their factory in Austin, anywhere else has to del with one or the other anyway.

Also, in certain cases, we honor the warranty after 1 year if circumstances warrant it. We have one big customer that did not use a proper power source and cooked his power supplies (using a standard breaker is a no no for ANY LED unswitched stage light. We replaced them all at our cost with free shipping and helped him spec out a proper dry relay switching system to control the power to the lights and gave him a good discount on that. We have another much smaller customer, 16 pars, who had a console power supply fail and it overvolted the DMX taking out all the DMX chips in our pars we sold him. We did the same and gave him a opto isolator for free so it would not happen again. We know who butters our bread, and a high level of after the sale service and the products themselves has led to enough word of mouth we don't advertise.

2) Our Website has been an issue for a while, we have over 100 detailed listings in our eBay store, and keeping them both in sync is the big project around here. A new version is just around the corner though.

As for the rider comment, we are a production company and we do national acts all the time, and several dozen other production companies do the same with lights purchased from us. Rider acceptance has not been an issue other than guaranteeing spares. In fact, rental houses are our biggest customer base because the price points using our gear are more marketable.

That being said, just a few key points about us, first we manufacture to order, if you need 5 pin DMX 45 degree pink pars, that's what we do, manufacture to your specs. If you want a higher frequency power supply, that's an option, barn doors, W-DMX, Powercon, pigtails...whatever, we can do that in almost any combination. Need 8 bit dimming to match existing pars? no problem. Same with the moving heads, anything that needs to be an option is an option. You can't get this from Ali Baba, or form a lot of "Name Brand" suppliers. We don't buy shipping container loads of last years equipment and sell it at a low margin to clear the inventory. That's the other guys.

As for pricing, when you look at the prices on eBay or the website, you are seeing single unit pricing. Anything over 8 units you get a volume discount, at 20 units the discount gets pretty big, at 50 its HUGE. We cater to small orders, but you cant use those prices to determine what a real order would cost. Also and if you just use PayPal and not eBay you get another 7%. If you pay direct you get 10% off "List" in addition to volume discounts. Shipping discounts are possible too, for instance shipments to our customers in Hawaii cost us about 20% less and in those cases we pass that on even though shipping is free.

As for Certification, all our equipment is CE/ROHS certified which is fine as we ship all over the world and CE, the European standard and the most common in China due to Hong Kong being British for so long. is accepted everywhere.

We go to great lengths to differentiate ourselves, but we do not advertise except for eBay if that counts, and we do not participate in LDI or any other trade show. Maybe in the future, but not now. We are concentrating on managing our quick growth without all that right now.

Before I end this I want to make something very clear, you simply CAN NOT assume a "name brand" product is actually sourced from that company any more, you have to make sure. According to the manager of our factory in Guangzhou (Stage Light City), where 90% of all stage lighting in the world is manufactured, 60% of all name brand gear is counterfeit. For example, Robe moving heads. I can get them all day long and all of them are legacy or knock off. Legacy means Robe used a Chinese factory to manufacture model X for so many units. After the order is filled, guess what, they just keep on making them. Want a Robe 1200 Watt Spot? My price is 1100 with a lamp! It's NOT Robe though it just says Robe nd it looks just like a 2010 model, what a coincidence! Same for Sharpies, Avolite consoles, and many other brands. And I wont even go into lights with Chinese LEDs, total crap.

Anyway, thank you again for your input, we here at Nightowl want and need constructive criticism and hard questions to make sure our message is getting out there correctly. As to why we are not discussed more here, I cant answer that other than we have never had a customer mention this forum, or any forum for that matter when talking about how they came to us. I really don't know what to make of that. We only discovered it when we Goggled Nightowl to see who is talking about us, but our old sound engineer is a member here and loves it and he filled me in.

Also, I would be happy to ship you a sample any time, I think you would be impressed.

Thanks again,

Scott Matarrese, Owner,
Nghtowl Stage Lighting


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## JChenault (Feb 23, 2017)

Scott

In your reply, you said:


nightowlstagelighting said:


> Hello,
> 
> We have one big customer that did not use a proper power source and cooked his power supplies (using a standard breaker is a no no for ANY LED unswitched stage light.
> 
> We replaced them all at our cost with free shipping and helped him spec out a proper dry relay switching system to control the power to the lights and gave him a good discount on that.



I have never heard that providing power to an led fixture using a 'standard breaker'. ( assuming you mean a circuit breaker) can cause any issue ( other than breakers are not meant for frequent switching on and off ). Can you clarify please?


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## nightowlstagelighting (Feb 23, 2017)

JChenault said:


> Scott
> 
> In your reply, you said:
> 
> ...



Hello,

A LOT of people are unaware of this huge issue. That 20-50K lifetime means nothing if you are putting a surge to the light every time its powered on.

ETC states for their ColorSource LED Par:

Consult breaker trip curves when used with other equipment.
Requires power from a non-dimmable source
• Inrush (Maximum)
-- 120V: 35A (First half-cycle)
-- 240V: 49A (First half-cycle)

Easy to miss actually.

They recommend their own solutions, their R20 relay module or Unison® Echo Relay Panel. We recommend the Leprecon Watson for smaller installations or the new VX2400 12 Channel Pack with Dry Relay modules in the place of dimmer modules. The nice thing about the Leprecon is that you can mix and match relay and dimmer modules, say 6 of each. This not only allows safe on/off switching, also you can do it via DMX with all these products. Perfect for permanent and touring applications.

The designer at our factory agrees that these are good numbers to go by for all unswitched LED stagelights. If the inrush is consistently higher, you are literally risking the life of your light. That too-high inrush can make it as far as the LEDs, and that's bad.

If someone can't afford the pro stuff, a simple $150 20 amp ETA rack mount power conditioner works pretty good, better than nothing. Even a high quality power strip is better than nothing, especially since they come with insurance. The key is YOU GOTTA DO SOMETHING.

Think about it, you have your pars on, and a car takes out a power pole and the lines cross, if that doesn't get you when they turn the power back on and you have an open circuit with no surge protection, you have a problem.

After this, the lack of a DMX Opto Isolator is the second most common external cause of a LED par failure in our experience, more than getting wet or dropped.

I hope that answers your question, this is an important topic.

Thanks

Scott


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## Taniith (Feb 23, 2017)

Would a Colorsource Relay be sufficient, instead of one of the single-output Watson units?


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## sk8rsdad (Feb 23, 2017)

This is such a red herring. 

Yes, inrush currents can be high as the capacitors in the power supply charge. No, it's got nothing to do with what sort of breaker is used in the path that provides the power. 

The fixture pulls power. The breaker does not push it. The power supply is pretty much a dead short early in the first half-cycle so while there would be less stress if the source switches on at a zero crossing, as many well-designed relays do, it's wrong to conclude that changing the breaker will change the inrush current in any meaningful way.


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## nightowlstagelighting (Feb 23, 2017)

Taniith said:


> Would a Colorsource Relay be sufficient, instead of one of the single-output Watson units?


Hello,

Yes, I forgot that one when listing the ETC options. It is a dry relay unit that is highly reliable.

Scott


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## nightowlstagelighting (Feb 23, 2017)

sk8rsdad said:


> This is such a red herring.
> 
> Yes, inrush currents can be high as the capacitors in the power supply charge. No, it's got nothing to do with what sort of breaker is used in the path that provides the power.
> 
> The fixture pulls power. The breaker does not push it. The power supply is pretty much a dead short early in the first half-cycle so while there would be less stress if the source switches on at a zero crossing, as many well-designed relays do, it's wrong to conclude that changing the breaker will change the inrush current in any meaningful way.



Hello,

I am not sure what you are getting at. I did not talk about changing breakers or what sort of breaker. When you switch a breaker on, there is a surge, this is a fact. I never said the breaker pushes power, I don't even know what that means. I talked about putting a dry relay in between a breaker or disconnect and the lights just as every manufacturer recommends. Not doing this can affect warranty and does affect lifespan.

There are actually high quality breakers that limit surges, but you don't find them in performance venues normally.

Thanks,

Scott


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## GreyWyvern (Feb 23, 2017)

This tangent that this thread has taking is talking about what can happen when a breaker is used as a switch, is that correct? Is there a difference in what is being said happens when a) the unit is connected to power with the breaker off and then the breaker is turned on, or b) the breaker is on and then the unit is plugged into power? In either case, the unit is suddenly seeing/pulling power. Is there a difference? How does the dry relay change things? I'm nearing the end of a long day (mentally) and feel like I may be missing or forgetting something I should know and need refreshed on.


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## microstar (Feb 23, 2017)

nightowlstagelighting said:


> Hello,
> 
> I am not sure what you are getting at. I did not talk about changing breakers or what sort of breaker. When you switch a breaker on, there is a surge, this is a fact. I never said the breaker pushes power, I don't even know what that means. I talked about putting a dry relay in between a breaker or disconnect and the lights just as every manufacturer recommends. Not doing this can affect warranty and does affect lifespan.
> 
> ...


 It is also a fact that a dry relay is nothing more than a switch. How a switch limits surge current any more than a breaker does makes no sense. The fact a breaker will trip when subjected to overcurrent and a dry relay cannot also says something. The only mitigating point is that most breakers are not designed to be used as switches, therefore some type of DMX-controlled relay is a better and more convenient solution to controlling LED fixture power. It has nothing to do with surge.


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## GreyWyvern (Feb 23, 2017)

microstar said:


> It is also a fact that a dry relay is nothing more than a switch. How a switch limits surge current any more than a breaker does makes no sense. The fact a breaker will trip when subjected to overcurrent and a dry relay cannot also says something. The only mitigating point is that most breakers are not designed to be used as switches, therefore some type of DMX-controlled relay is a better and more convenient solution to controlling LED fixture power. It has nothing to do with surge.


That makes sense and is at least part of what I was trying to get at.


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## nightowlstagelighting (Feb 23, 2017)

GreyWyvern said:


> This tangent that this thread has taking is talking about what can happen when a breaker is used as a switch, is that correct? Is there a difference in what is being said happens when a) the unit is connected to power with the breaker off and then the breaker is turned on, or b) the breaker is on and then the unit is plugged into power? In either case, the unit is suddenly seeing/pulling power. Is there a difference? How does the dry relay change things? I'm nearing the end of a long day (mentally) and feel like I may be missing or forgetting something I should know and need refreshed on.



Me too, the maybe the implied missing key here is that all these ETC and Leprecon units combine a dry relay, the only acceptable type of switch for LED pars, and surge protection to limit the inrush to an acceptable level. Plugging an LED Par into a hot circuit is never recommended, and a non surge protected anything, breaker, wall switch, fusebox, whatever, is highly discouraged by manufacturers, including us.

Thanks,

Scott


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## Malabaristo (Feb 23, 2017)

nightowlstagelighting said:


> I am not sure what you are getting at. I did not talk about changing breakers or what sort of breaker. When you switch a breaker on, there is a surge, this is a fact. I never said the breaker pushes power, I don't even know what that means. I talked about putting a dry relay in between a breaker or disconnect and the lights just as every manufacturer recommends. Not doing this can affect warranty and does affect lifespan.
> 
> There are actually high quality breakers that limit surges, but you don't find them in performance venues normally.
> Scott



You seem to be confused about what inrush is or what one should do about it. Inrush is something caused by the power supply in the fixture--it's not something that happens to the fixture. If the fixture is somehow being damaged by its own inrush, then there's something seriously wrong with the design of the fixture.

Adding a relay before the fixture does nothing to reduce inrush unless the relay intentionally switches right at the AC zero-crossing. ETC's products don't (in general*) do this, and that's not what the documentation is saying. What it actually says is that the breakers used in those devices won't nuisance-trip due to inrush as long as you use fewer than the specified number of fixtures. Nothing in any of the ETC datasheets says you need a relay in the circuit and I've never seen that suggestion in any other manufacturer's documentation. That's because there's no difference between switching a relay, switching a breaker, or switching a regular old light switch.

Perhaps the customer with the fried power supplies mistakenly connected them to a dimmer rather than a relay?


(*I know the panel products will switch at any point in the AC cycle, but I have a vague memory that the CS Relay might switch at the zero-cross... don't see anything in the datasheet to back that up, though.)


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## nightowlstagelighting (Feb 23, 2017)

microstar said:


> It is also a fact that a dry relay is nothing more than a switch. How a switch limits surge current any more than a breaker does makes no sense. The fact a breaker will trip when subjected to overcurrent and a dry relay cannot also says something. The only mitigating point is that most breakers are not designed to be used as switches, therefore some type of DMX-controlled relay is a better and more convenient solution to controlling LED fixture power. It has nothing to do with surge.



Hello,

The DMX relays we are talking about have surge protection to limit the inrush. That's the whole point. Dry relays are the only switching mechanism recommended for switching pars on and off, surge protection is a must, sorry I thought I made that clear. All the ETC and Leprecon devices mentioned are at there core surge protectors. The key is if you use anything other than a dry relay surge protector, it is not sufficient, and risky.

Thanks,

Scott


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## GreyWyvern (Feb 23, 2017)

Seems to be two rather different thoughts here. Let's try turning on the @STEVETERRY signal. Hopefully he will step in and set things straight. Then we could get back to the original topic of the thread.


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## nightowlstagelighting (Feb 23, 2017)

Malabaristo said:


> You seem to be confused about what inrush is or what one should do about it. Inrush is something caused by the power supply in the fixture--it's not something that happens to the fixture. If the fixture is somehow being damaged by its own inrush, then there's something seriously wrong with the design of the fixture.
> 
> Adding a relay before the fixture does nothing to reduce inrush unless the relay intentionally switches right at the AC zero-crossing. ETC's products don't (in general*) do this, and that's not what the documentation is saying. What it actually says is that the breakers used in those devices won't nuisance-trip due to inrush as long as you use fewer than the specified number of fixtures. Nothing in any of the ETC datasheets says you need a relay in the circuit and I've never seen that suggestion in any other manufacturer's documentation. That's because there's no difference between switching a relay, switching a breaker, or switching a regular old light switch.
> 
> ...



No, not confused at all. What I am telling you is per Leprecon. We know for a fact that when you have a non surge protected power source that is switched on, the initial inrush TO THE POWER SUPPLY can be over the pars ability to handle. I think what you are missing is that the ETC and Leprecon units are surge protectors. If what you are saying were true, Leprecon and ETC would not recommend a controllable surge protected power source using a dry relay.


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## microstar (Feb 23, 2017)

nightowlstagelighting said:


> Me too, the maybe the implied missing key here is that all these ETC and Leprecon units combine a dry relay, the only acceptable type of switch for LED pars, and surge protection to limit the inrush to an acceptable level. Plugging an LED Par into a hot circuit is never recommended, and a non surge protected anything, breaker, wall switch, fusebox, whatever, is highly discouraged by manufacturers, including us.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Scott



My reading of Leprecon's Watson brochure (http://www.leprecon.com/productfiles/280374Bwatson_.pdf) is that it offers surge protection only because it switches off the power via dry contact when the fixture is not in use because the DMX has stopped. It says nothing about surge protection when the fixtures are actually connected to the power line.


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## Malabaristo (Feb 23, 2017)

nightowlstagelighting said:


> No, not confused at all. What I am telling you is per Leprecon. We know for a fact that when you have a non surge protected power source that is switched on, the initial inrush TO THE POWER SUPPLY can be over the pars ability to handle. I think what you are missing is that the ETC and Leprecon units are surge protectors. If what you are saying were true, Leprecon and ETC would not recommend a controllable surge protected power source using a dry relay.



There's a problem with your argument: ETC does not make any such recommendation in any of their documentation and their relay products definitely do not include surge suppression. Hopefully Steve Terry (or someone else from ETC) can jump in and confirm this...

Again, inrush is not something that happens to the fixture and it's not actually a voltage spike. Instead, it's a large amount of current drawn by the fixture for a very brief period of time as capacitors in the fixture's power supply are getting their initial charge. This is something the fixture is doing regardless of how it's getting power (relay, switch, manual plugging-in, breaker, whatever), and it shouldn't be harmful to itself unless there is something really wrong with the design of the fixture.

If you're telling me that plugging one of your fixtures into a regular outlet with constant power is likely to damage the fixture, then I'm definitely never going to buy any of your products. That's absurd.


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## nightowlstagelighting (Feb 23, 2017)

microstar said:


> My reading of Leprecon's Watson brochure (http://www.leprecon.com/productfiles/280374Bwatson_.pdf) is that it offers surge protection only because it switches off the power via dry contact when the fixture is not in use because the DMX has stopped. It says nothing about surge protection when the fixtures are actually connected to the power line.


The other poster is correct just a dry relay will do nothing to protect a device. If you just want relays you can get a 4 channel relay pack for 99 bucks


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## nightowlstagelighting (Feb 23, 2017)

Malabaristo said:


> There's a problem with your argument: ETC does not make any such recommendation in any of their documentation and their relay products definitely do not include surge suppression. Hopefully Steve Terry (or someone else from ETC) can jump in and confirm this...
> 
> Again, inrush is not something that happens to the fixture and it's not actually a voltage spike. Instead, it's a large amount of current drawn by the fixture for a very brief period of time as capacitors in the fixture's power supply are getting their initial charge. This is something the fixture is doing regardless of how it's getting power (relay, switch, manual plugging-in, breaker, whatever), and it shouldn't be harmful to itself unless there is something really wrong with the design of the fixture.
> 
> If you're telling me that plugging one of your fixtures into a regular outlet with constant power is likely to damage the fixture, then I'm definitely never going to buy any of your products. That's absurd.


I was just trying to tell you guys the safest and best way to operate LED pars. If you think it's a good idea to plug any electronic device in the on state into a wall socket on a regular basis that's fine. I see no reason for the hostility

Scott


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## nightowlstagelighting (Feb 23, 2017)

nightowlstagelighting said:


> The other poster is correct just a dry relay will do nothing to protect a device. If you just want relays you can get a 4 channel relay pack for 99 bucks


Also the Watson manual CLEARLY states surge protection to extend device life


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## Malabaristo (Feb 23, 2017)

nightowlstagelighting said:


> I was just trying to tell you guys the safest and best way to operate LED pars. If you think it's a good idea to plug any electronic device in the on state into a wall socket on a regular basis that's fine. I see no reason for the hostility
> Scott



That's not hostility; that's astonishment. I apologize if it came across as anything else in writing.


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## nightowlstagelighting (Feb 23, 2017)

Malabaristo said:


> That's not hostility; that's astonishment. I apologize if it came across as anything else in writing.


I fail to see what is astonishing about a device like a Watson that is designed specifically to provide the cleanest surge protected power to unswitched devices and that doing so is a good idea. Otherwise why would anyone spend 600 ona one circuit dmx relay switch. We sell quite a few Watson and VX relay packs and who would spend 4K for 12relays if there were not more to it. I am simply telling you guys what that more is. Do with it what you will

Malabaristo said:


> That's not hostility; that's astonishment. I apologize if it came across as anything else in writing.





Scott


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## Jeff Lelko (Feb 23, 2017)

I'll acknowledge/reply to the longer response you (Scott) wrote me once this digression subsides, but I was under the impression that a surge suppressor is designed to protect from dangerously high spikes in voltage - not inrush current, which is a completely different and normal thing. A surge suppressor also won't protect from low voltage or brownout conditions which can also be damaging to certain equipment. I think the point that others are making is that if a light's power supply isn't robust enough to handle "everyday use", there's no sense in buying it. And just to avoid further contention in this thread, "everyday use" is just that - I plug a light into a power outlet, I expect it to work without any other equipment that failure to use blows the light and voids my warranty. That said, always meter the power first.


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## soundlight (Feb 23, 2017)

FYI - the entire industry, world over, powers their LED units, moving lights, &c. off of just plugging it in to a circuit and turning it on and off with a breaker for portable, touring, and indeed some installed situations. I have never once heard about surge suppression having a factor on inrush current, as surge suppression is designed for voltage spikes, not current spikes. Surge protectors - by and large - do have an OCPD on them, but that's for sustained overloading, not for inrush, and it just shuts off the power. It's called a breaker.

As Jeff stated above, always meter power.

Why would someone spend that much? Because it's a smart device for an install. The Watson is a great little unit, and I'd suggest them to anyone doing small installs. It's able to know when your board is on or off and control power based off of that, which is a great feature for spaces where you know that the gear will not be turned off. And as far as the VX racks - or any other expensive relay cabinets - they can switch 2400 watts per channel, not just 600-ish like the $99 relay packs. They're also reliable for much longer, installable, and are manufactured in the US with US support. Comparing a 12-ch VX rack to a $99 relay pack is very much apples to oranges, just like comparing inrush current reduction to over voltage surge suppression. (Please link to an actual $99 relay pack if you can, all of the ones that I've found are "relay/dimmer combo", and just turn in to "relay" by not using the dimming function of the dimmer - power still passes through the dimming circuit.)


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## microstar (Feb 23, 2017)

nightowlstagelighting said:


> Hello,
> 
> The DMX relays we are talking about have surge protection to limit the inrush. That's the whole point. Dry relays are the only switching mechanism recommended for switching pars on and off, surge protection is a must, sorry I thought I made that clear. All the ETC and Leprecon devices mentioned are at there core surge protectors. The key is if you use anything other than a dry relay surge protector, it is not sufficient, and risky.
> 
> ...



You're the one that said that ETC and Leprecon made their dry relay devices WITH surge protection. Everyone else told you that those devices are just dry relays and DO NOT have surge protection. So I take it you now agree that the devices in question are just dry relays and do not have surge protection built in?


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## GreyWyvern (Feb 24, 2017)

Malabaristo said:


> Again, inrush is not something that happens to the fixture and it's not actually a voltage spike. Instead, it's a large amount of current drawn by the fixture for a very brief period of time as capacitors in the fixture's power supply are getting their initial charge. This is something the fixture is doing regardless of how it's getting power (relay, switch, manual plugging-in, breaker, whatever), and it shouldn't be harmful to itself unless there is something really wrong with the design of the fixture.


This is what I was trying to remember yesterday. Inrush is only a concern when it comes to breakers. Say you have a string of 12 fixtures all connected together, but not powered yet, and those 12 fixtures are below the amperage of the breaker. You shouldn't have to worry about them *after* they are powered up, however, the amount of current drawn when power is applied to the string of fixtures could very well be enough to trip the breaker. This is called.... inrush!


Malabaristo said:


> If you're telling me that plugging one of your fixtures into a regular outlet with constant power is likely to damage the fixture, then I'm definitely never going to buy any of your products. That's absurd.


This is also a very good point. That would indicate a very poorly designed PSU.

(It's amazing what a good night of sleep can do for ones mind!)


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## STEVETERRY (Feb 24, 2017)

nightowlstagelighting said:


> Hello,
> 
> A LOT of people are unaware of this huge issue. That 20-50K lifetime means nothing if you are putting a surge to the light every time its powered on.
> 
> ...



Scott--

The post above contains a number of outright engineering errors and misinterpretations:

1. ETC LED luminaires utilize switch mode power supplies. These have inrush currents at startup that are detailed in our specifications.

2. ETC LED luminaires are designed and tested for direct application of power at turn on, without any required modifying device in the power feed. That means they can be turned on by a switch, circuit breaker, relay, or any other device that provides constant line voltage power. There is no functional or reliability difference between any of these devices when used to feed an ETC LED luminiare.

3. Your statements about the "surge" at turn on are incorrect. The only effect of inrush current is that it may trip the circuit breaker if too many luminaires are connected to a single branch circuit. There is no "self-inflicted damage" to ETC luminaires caused by "direct" power-up methods described above.

4. ETC LED luminaires do not require any additional external "surge protection" in order to operate to specifications. In fact, compliance with EN standards required for CE marking also requires severe surge testing without failure. ETC LED luminaires are both CE marked and ETL Listed to UL1573 or UL1598.

5. While a DMX512 opto-isolator is a useful data distribution tool, ETC LED luminaires do not require this device for correct operation , as long as EIA-485 data link loading specifications are complied with in the data distribution arrangement.

Steve Terry
VP Research & Development
ETC


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## GreyWyvern (Feb 24, 2017)

Thanks for clearing things up Steve!


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## JChenault (Feb 24, 2017)

Steve

Idle question here.

What kind of circuit could you build in a "Relay Box" that would control inrush current? I am not an electrical engineer but I can't figure out how it would work.

Second. If someone had such a device what effect would it have on the power supply?


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## sk8rsdad (Feb 24, 2017)

Simple yet inefficient options include series resistors or NTC thermistors. These aren't suitable for large loads, and kind of miss the point for LED lighting which is all about efficiency. 

Inductors (choke) also resist rapid changes in current which is why you will find them in switched-mode dimmers.

The hypothetical "relay box" could be made with a secondary relay + resistor inside, and a little bit of circuitry to activate the secondary relay. Basically, current initially flows through a resistor for a time. Eventually, the secondary relay coil (and whatever power supply is downstream) is energized by the trickle of energy which closes the primary contacts to bypass the resistor. So, use a smaller RC circuit to time the initial charging of the capacitors in the bigger RC circuit downstream. It makes more sense to do this in the power supply itself rather than as an external relay.

Google "inrush limiting circuit" for way more details than you probably want.


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## JChenault (Feb 24, 2017)

sk8rsdad said:


> Simple yet inefficient options include series resistors or NTC thermistors. These aren't suitable for large loads, and kind of miss the point for LED lighting which is all about efficiency.
> 
> Inductors (choke) also resist rapid changes in current which is why you will find them in switched-mode dimmers.
> 
> ...



Thanks. Makes sense


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## TJCornish (Feb 24, 2017)

nightowlstagelighting said:


> I was just trying to tell you guys the safest and best way to operate LED pars. If you think it's a good idea to plug any electronic device in the on state into a wall socket on a regular basis that's fine. I see no reason for the hostility
> 
> Scott


Scott, you are making claims which run contrary to basic electrical theory, some of which comes across as an upsell.

Modern switch-mode power supplies are comparatively resilient, and most are universal voltage - 100v - 265v, meaning they can handle much poorer power than devices of the past. Also, most can run on "stepped-sine" power from cheapo inverters that have horrible harmonic distortion; not that I'm advocating doing this. 

Is it a good idea to remove power from always-on devices when not needed? Absolutely, and that is the function of many of the products you reference. Relays limit power supply wear and tear by reducing the number of on hours, which also reduces the odds that a significant power issue like a lightning hit will get to the fixtures. Unless they have a special inrush limiting function they are indistinguishable from the light fixture's perspective from any other electro-mechanical way of switching power - circuit breaker, light switch, plugging the cord in the receptacle, relay, etc. 

If your products require special handling to have them not blow up when plugging them into normal wall power then I'm not interested, as that's a major deficiency compared to every other lighting product I've used in the past. 

I suspect your prior issues relate to other electrical infrastructure problems in your customers' venues, or possibly a bad run of product.


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## n1ist (Feb 26, 2017)

The other way to limit inrush current is to control the timing of when the relay closes or opens. I do this to improve relay lifetime on some of our products at work. I turn on at voltage zero cross, and turn off at current zero cross (the relay closing time is taken into account - calibrated at manufacture, monitored and adjusted for changes during lifetime). All of this is done to protect the relay; properly designed loads can handle their own inrush or have soft-start circuits.


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## RideTheSquirrel (Mar 10, 2017)

Alright ladies and gentlemen; the time is upon us to take an unbiased look into the NightOwl LED pars.

I apologize in advance for this being to photo/video heavy. I wanted to be as fair and thorough as possible. I'll reference photo files name as I need to in order to make this easier.

For those of you who enjoy the TL;DR of reddit: I would say that these guys are a great light for the price, but they have a few shortcomings that you would not see in the top tier quality. 

I purchased (12) twelve RGBWA-UV 18x24 Pars from NightOwl with flight cases for $3000 shipped. 
See IMG_0007

When I initially placed my order I noticed 2 things. The first being that you can spec these things because they are built to order (at least in my case). There was a choice between, 3 or 5 pin connections, body colors, lenses (you could have anything from Narrow to Wide Floods). I chose 3 pin connectors, black body, and wide flood lenses. There was an option to not purchase in flight cases and be packaged in cardboard instead. I choose the cases, because it never hurts to have them around, especially since I operate in 3 theatres on this campus.
The second thing that surprised me was that there is no form or anything that was offered to me to fill out to spec these. With all those options, I figured they'd have a website that you could place the order on and spec all of the options - but it was done through e-mail and everything arrived the way I ordered it. If it works, I guess I can't really complain. 

I was instructed it would take about 10 business days to have the order in my hands from the date of payment. I payed on the 22nd of February and had the pars delivered on the 9th of March. 11 business days by my count. 

The cases were much nicer than I expected. They have casters and are stackable. They're built pretty solid and appropriately fit the instrument for transportation. They have robust hinges and locks, and even have wheel locks (2 total, 1 on each opposing corner) and spring loaded lift handles. A great addition which was at no cost to me. 
See IMG_0007-0011

Instrument Hardware:
I was pleased to see that each instrument was carefully packaged and shipped with a 3 pin dmx cable. I was not expecting the 3pin dmx cable at all, so this was a complete bonus to me. The lighting instrument itself has fairly thin casted walls. It feels very lightweight compared to other versions of this same type of LED par I've used. You can see that it has been equipped with dual yokes but no clamps or clasps come with the instrument itself, as is typical in the industry. No safety cables either. The lenses are designed to vent through, which work well; you can feel the air flow through them but not enough to disrupt anything framed (like frost or something). There are actually filtered air intakes near the base of the unit itself, which is something I don't often see in lower priced instruments. The manual is helpful and written in an understandable form of english but feels lightly generic.
See IMG_0011-0016

Processing:
Overall, I will say that the LCD display screen and menus, etc, are not my preference. They are fine in size and functionality *(although 1 instrument was clearly damaged in shipping, and not functioning properly) *but they are not easy to navigate. Normally you can have a menu which you can choose what channel mode these function in. That is not the case with these; there is a dxxx (being the address number) to signify it is in 10 channel mode or an axxx (being the address number) signifying that you're using 6 channel mode. I have had a hell of a time even in the appropriate setting figuring out how the hell to get these into a 10 channel mode. In the manual it states to press enter to lock in the changes made, but whenever you press enter it just shows a seemingly random number in the 20s or 30s. Perhaps this is user error and I'm currently discussing this with Scott; I'll keep you posted when I sort it out. The other thing that is a pain, but is surprisingly common, is that this does not come with any kind of ETC fixture profile. While they can be programmed easily with a generic RGBWA fixture (and then manually adding in the UV) It would be great to see a full functionality "out of the box" implementation. I have been working on one, so I will gladly make it available to all those who ask for it, that have ETC Ion and other associated consoles that run the same framework. 



This will be continued; I have photos with colors and some videos for dimming, but I have to get back to getting a dance show on it's feet.


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## Van (Mar 10, 2017)

Nicely done! excellent review looking for to hearing more about their function and addressing issues. Great to hear they are so responsive and working with you.


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## RideTheSquirrel (Mar 10, 2017)

I would also like to mention that immediately upon my contacting NightOwl Scott reached out to me very quickly and responded with answers to my questions that are useful and to the point. I like that a lot, I can tell these are no -nonsense kind of people and they care about their customers. They are sending me a prepaid shipping box to send the light back to them where it can be replaced/repaired and sent back to me. Excellent customer service!


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## RideTheSquirrel (Mar 10, 2017)

Ok, here are some color images for you guys; I will have more side by side with an incandescent ETC par (and associated gel) in the future for dimming and color comparison. For right now, here are the generic shots. Please excuse this being taken with my iPhone 7+, but these days I suppose these cameras are pretty good. I will get the UV shots in the next post. This was all done from my mix position FOH right next to my Ion console.


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## RideTheSquirrel (Mar 10, 2017)

I've also attached the entire manual for this instrument, that came in the packaging. My phone was having a tough time focusing on the UV.


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## RickR (Mar 10, 2017)

I've see similar addressing schemes on low end fixtures. Some use a number rather than a letter, so a 3xxx is one mode and 4xxx, 5xxx and so forth are others. A good manual makes it a bit clearer but it's still a bit of a twist the first time around.


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## Jeff Lelko (Mar 12, 2017)

Thanks for following up with this. If you happen to take video, I'd be very curious to see how the fixtures perform in the bottom 25% of their output range. Do things stay smooth and consistent enough for theater use or do the colors start dropping out or falling apart? If you don't mind elaborating, what is the nature of damage to your one unit needing return? Finally, who is DLG Stage Lighting? Sorry for all the questions, but great job on the write-up so far!


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## RideTheSquirrel (Mar 14, 2017)

Ok; Here are some videos that focus on dimming. I apologize, but I'm trying to do this at 11:30pm after a long day of spacing rehearsals and scenic preparation, and I was sitting at the console because I let all of my crew leave for the day before I could do this. The trim heights are at 24 feet, and I'm likely 160' away from the stage. This is shooting onto black Harlequin Reversible marley. I think it clearly makes the point I'm trying to demonstrate, however. If you have the volume on, you can hear the clicking of the go button (if you want to get particular about start times, etc). The little red lights on either side of the videos are exit signs in the dark. I apologize that this is from my iPhone, but it's all I've got currently to record with.

This video shows ETC Pars with R26 cuts (this is what's up for a show I'm getting on it's feet right now) fading up over 12 seconds, and then back down. Immediately following that are the NightOwl LED Pars programmed to R26 in an ETC Ion console. There are 8 of each instrument in the air. I just strapped on the LED pars today to try to get something for you guys before I get insanely busy with a dance production that is this weekend. They are not focused, I put them next to the par systems in my plot and pointed them in the same direction and flew them out. Again, I will mention that these LED pars were ordered with the wide flood equivalancy lenses in the LED. The Pars have wide flood lenses.



This video shows a single ETC par STAGE RIGHT with R26, and a single Nightowl LED par STAGE LEFT programmed to R26 in the console. This is set over a 10 second fade.



I want to make mention; These two colors are identical. I can't believe how great the reds match up with no adjustment on the console whatsoever. Really great! I tried matching a few other colors (just by using the color picker gel menu) and they are either REALLY close or dead nuts on. It's really great, ESPECIALLY for the price point of this instrument.


I will have more about color matching and dimming likely after this weekend is over. I will try to make it a bit more apparent about how the colors line up (I'll try to shoot them at the CYC side by side.


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## RideTheSquirrel (Mar 29, 2017)

Ok All - here is the last bit of information I am going to include:

Here are some closer various color dimming to show how these instruments hold their color.

I only had my iRFR app with me to change colors so I was sneaking the instrument up and down with some various colors I knew would be mixing 2 or 3 different diodes at a time. I would set the color roughly from the color picker on the app; then {sneak} [at] {full} {enter} ; after that was complete I'd let it set for a few seconds and then {sneak} {out} and it would take it back down. 







As you can see they have a few issues but really only when it gets down to below 6% in most accounts. 

*My overall thoughts:*

In considering the pricing and overall quality of these instruments *I must say that I would recommend them to my friends* who are looking for an alternative to pricier ETC color source pars. As a quick review; acceptable theatrical dimming, great color abilities, acceptable fan noise levels for theatrical use, and they do come with the basic features of sound activation; strobe effects, and the UV light is quite spectacular. All of this for $250 a piece (in the quantity I bought, and truly counting the flight cases as free). The customer service is there; I had an issue with an instrument clearly damaged from shipping and it was dispatched and is being repaired/replaced and sent back to me at no cost to me; in a timely manner. Scott and Jenny have been excellent, I want to publicly thank you guys for everything ; Start to finish. 

So guys - there you have it. I'd also like to offer that if anyone is in the Erie, PA area and would like to see these things first hand feel free to message me and we can arrange a time. I'd be more than happy to unleash you on them for an hour or so, but I can promise you for the price you can't go wrong with these.


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## Jeff Lelko (Apr 4, 2017)

RideTheSquirrel said:


> As you can see they have a few issues but really only when it gets down to below 6% in most accounts.



Thanks for sharing! So is it just my computer, or do these seem to have a bit of flicker, flashing, and what looks to be slightly choppy response to them?


RideTheSquirrel said:


> The customer service is there; I had an issue with an instrument clearly damaged from shipping and it was dispatched and is being repaired/replaced and sent back to me at no cost to me; in a timely manner.



Have you gotten the defective fixture sent back yet or replaced, and if so, what was the total turnaround time?


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## SteveB (Apr 4, 2017)

Jeff Lelko said:


> Thanks for sharing! So is it just my computer, or do these seem to have a bit of flicker, flashing, and what looks to be slightly choppy response to them?
> 
> 
> 
> Have you gotten the defective fixture sent back yet or replaced, and if so, what was the total turnaround time?



Looked steppy while playing on my iPad.


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