# Convince the TD



## Studio (May 17, 2010)

I am trying to convince our TD to let us mix sound at FOH instead of in the booth. We have a Soundcraft Series TWO, and we have a snake connections in the floor FOH, along with power and Com inputs. There is plenty of space, and locking the room is no problem. However she recently says she doesn't want to because: when she goes to performances she hears FOH whispering and flipping pages in the script, and she says it's distracting. Does anyone have any good argument points to convince her. (I already tried the "it will sound better" one).


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## bishopthomas (May 17, 2010)

Is she correct that you'll be talking and flipping pages loudly? If so then you'd better settle in for the long haul in your booth. Maybe there's a way you can modify the booth so that you can hear what's going on but still be separate from the audience. Find a compromise you can both live with. Maybe you could get one of those Mission Impossible "toast" SPL meters and do a trial run in your existing booth. Never hit the red and the alarms won't trip and you can convince her that you'll be quiet.


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## Studio (May 17, 2010)

bishopthomas said:


> Is she correct that you'll be talking and flipping pages loudly? If so then you'd better settle in for the long haul in your booth. Maybe there's a way you can modify the booth so that you can hear what's going on but still be separate from the audience. Find a compromise you can both live with. Maybe you could get one of those Mission Impossible "toast" SPL meters and do a trial run in your existing booth. Never hit the red and the alarms won't trip and you can convince her that you'll be quiet.



We have never had a talking problem, but she said when she went to other hight school shows she said it was distracting to her. And no we can't modify our booth, it is a giant glassless opening and it comes out from the wall like so:



FOH is in-between the Catwalk and the booth.
BTW the map is not quite to scale but we do have a small booth.

EDIT: Sorry for the size of the photo


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## acoppsa (May 17, 2010)

I have a similar issue at the moment with our Music Director. Except he said he doesn't want to because the equipment is too fragile to move. 
It's a brand new Soundcraft GB9 and all the connections are there. Surely moving it out of the booth once a year isn't going to be an issue!


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## bishopthomas (May 17, 2010)

Studio said:


> And no we can't modify our booth...



Then I think your standard conflict resolution rules will apply... In the end, though, she's the boss.


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## Studio (May 17, 2010)

bishopthomas said:


> Then I think your standard conflict resolution rules will apply... In the end, though, she's the boss.



I know she's boss but i would like to try it for 1 show and see if she likes it or not. So what I need are positives and negatives for mixing FOH in a High School 750 seat auditorium.


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## bishopthomas (May 17, 2010)

Well, no offense, but if you don't know the positives then how will you be able to utilize them? Either way, here are some off the top of my head:

1. Hear the mix you provide. This seems so obvious and such a common sense idea, but so many people need this spelled out for them.
2. actually, that's about it for pros. Now for the cons:

1. You're now "part of" the audience. I actually like to have my own space and not worry about disturbing the audience with small noises I'm bound to make. Also, during a slow part I can surf the web or play iPhone games. I'm running sound at a college graduation right now. It's boring as it can be but I'm behind a wall where no one can see me (see the pictures in the FOH pics thread), so I'm surfing the web and relaxing. Kind of tacky to be doing that in front of the customer.
2. You WILL make noise. You WILL need light. You WILL want space to view your script, keep a beverage, maybe have your laptop open, etc.
3. Aesthetics. The look of a FOH position may not matter for concerts, but for corporate, house of worship, and theatre it's a big concern WHAT FOH looks like. Let's face it, while we think cables are cool, most people do not want to see them. So unless you have a desk or drape kit where you can hide the business end of FOH, it's not going to be very pretty.

Don't get me wrong, I love to have a FOH position slightly off center and mix a real show the "right" way. But some shows just do not require it and the trade off is not worth it (to me).


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## zuixro (May 17, 2010)

I'm fighting the same battle. Well, not fighting, more like gently pushing the same idea. This is the third event in two months that I've moved the console out of the booth. I pushing him to let me leave it outside. We have this perfect little landing thing where we put it for musicals. We built a table that goes over the rail, and sits behind the seats below. It's nice, but ideally I'd like to remove part of the railing and 3 seats in front of it, build a platform out over where the seats used to be, and build a desk for our new console (coming at the end of June). Security isn't a problem. The theatre is always locked unless one of three people are in the building (not even custodians can be in there. It's part of the insurance policy or something). He's worried about the look of the space, which I understand, but I also think that if it's done right, it won't look bad, and it will raise the quality of the audio of our shows. (which has always been a weak point) He also says that it's unnecessary for most of our events; prerecorded sound effect only shows, single mic "talking heads", and groups that bring their own equipment and tie into our speakers. 

Oh well... At least with the new console we'll be getting a digital snake (hopefully), so moving the console will just be running AC and Cat5.


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## bishopthomas (May 17, 2010)

What console are you looking at? Chances are it will allow for mixing off a computer (tablet PC).


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## Studio (May 17, 2010)

Talking about my school only we have two board lights and thats all we need, we have 1 laptop for Qlab and thats about it. No cell phones or games are allowed for musicals because of the never ending mute unmute. We have run our video table/thingy (it is kind of hacked together) and she has had no problems with the cables and unsightliness. I don't know maybe its better to try to get some good monitors in the booth to supplement what we hear for levels and such. We don't do much eq so monitors would be a good compromise.

So what would you recommend for monitor speakers. We have some but they aren't very good. Any ideas?


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## zuixro (May 17, 2010)

bishopthomas said:


> What console are you looking at? Chances are it will allow for mixing off a computer (tablet PC).



That's one of the biggest things I'm looking forward to.

I think we're getting an M7CL. The TD can't remember what he put in the bid. It's a long and complicated situation. He had written what he wanted, but then they sent it out without him finalizing it or something, I can't remember.

I've been playing around with the computer version of the M7 a lot, and I can see using it for most of our events. I'm not sure how realistic it will be to run more than a few channels off of it though.

I doubt we'll be getting a tablet PC with it, so I'll probably end up using my computer. No touch screen, but it's better than being stuck in the booth. 

(sorry about the hijack)


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## bishopthomas (May 17, 2010)

It sounds like you need to talk to her diplomatically. I have a feeling you're a student, so try to have an adult conversation with her rather than just asking permission as student to teacher. This might include putting together a small presentation with a list of pros/cons (include her cons and provide rebuttals), and maybe even schedule an appointment. At least come to her one on one, DO NOT have this conversation when other students are around as she might feel pressured or "ganged up on."

As far as monitors go, you get what you pay for, so without giving us an idea on how much you're willing to spend there are thousands of pairs of monitors out there, from utter crap to crap your pants accurate.


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## bishopthomas (May 17, 2010)

zuixro said:


> That's one of the biggest things I'm looking forward to.
> 
> I think we're getting an M7CL. The TD can't remember what he put in the bid. It's a long and complicated situation. He had written what he wanted, but then they sent it out without him finalizing it or something, I can't remember.
> 
> I've been playing around with the computer version of the M7 a lot, and I can see using it for most of our events. I'm not sure how realistic it will be to run more than a few channels off of it though.



The M7CL does NOT come with a digital snake, although the new M7CL-ES does. Studio Manager on an LS9 or M7 works fantastically and will really make your life bearable if you're stuck mixing in a booth now. You're right, you can't really "mix" quickly on the fly. You're limited to moving one channel at a time, compared to 8 fingers = 8 faders on the actual surface. I wouldn't worry too much about the tablet, personally I'm faster with a trackball than with a stylus.


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## philhaney (May 17, 2010)

bishopthomas said:


> The M7CL does NOT come with a digital snake.



No it doesn't, but it has slots for three interface cards in the back, and Yamaha makes interface cards for just about everything, so hooking up to a digital snake should be no problem. 

(you just have to go out and get one...)


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## zuixro (May 17, 2010)

bishopthomas said:


> The M7CL does NOT come with a digital snake, although the new M7CL-ES does.



This has been chronicled in another thread (which I should probably post an update to), but the TD asked for my recommendation for a console. I told him the M7CL-ES. I'm not sure if that made it into the final bid, I know he at least spec'ed a digital snake. (hopefully whoever wins the bid will put 2 and 2 together...)

(again, sorry to hijack)

To the OP:
Just know that you're not the only one in the situation. 
Like Studio said, try to get her to let you try one show outside. The difference will be huge.


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## JChenault (May 17, 2010)

I would suggest that you approach the TD with something like.

_You have raised some real issues with having the mixing console in the house. If we can find a way to address those issues would you be willing to give it a trial for the next musical._

Then you make sure you understand the issues. Make absolutely positive it is talking and page flipping.

Now how do you deal with those two issues?
1 - the sound mixer is NOT on the headset during the show. If he has to talk at intermission - that is OK - but when the house lights go out, the headset comes off and the volume goes to 0. -- This is really just common sense. If you want to do a live mix, you want to hear with both ears - and not have someone talking about light cues in your head. What about effect cues you ask? Either you need a second operator in the booth, you have to take them on your own, or you build a cue light system for the stage manager to communicate with you.

2 - Figure out how to keep the pages silent. One way would be to copy the script and put it in a loose leaf notebook. Put the notebook on foam. Keep trying things till she cannot hear it from a couple of rows away.

Understand the issues, make sure you agree on what they are, and figure out if you can address them. If you do this, and there is not some other underlying reason the TD does not what the console in the house, I expect you will get your trial. And if you do get a trial, make sure it goes well. Don't ever listen on the headset. Turn pages slowly and carefully, etc.

Good luck.


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## museav (May 18, 2010)

zuixro said:


> This has been chronicled in another thread (which I should probably post an update to), but the TD asked for my recommendation for a console. I told him the M7CL-ES. I'm not sure if that made it into the final bid, I know he at least spec'ed a digital snake. (hopefully whoever wins the bid will put 2 and 2 together...)


I would not bet on that, at least if it is a competitive bid. In that situation, unless there are significant, obvious problems with the bid tendered then the bid will go to the company offering the lowest price. So bidders basically have to do whatever they can to get the bid price as low as possible, which often includes some creative interpretation of the bid in order to minimize the number associated with it. In other words, unless putting 2 and 2 together lowers the price, it probably won't happen. This is an all too typical issue with bids issued by someone unfamiliar with the process and practices involved.

I am finding some of the comments offered quite interesting. For example, the suggestion of not using a headset and using visual signaling is in my experience is not necessarily effective and I find that visual signaling can be more distracting to patrons.

Mixing with a laptop or tablet can be very effective for some situations and a challenge in others. Beyond the potential mixer interface issues many people forget that you may still have to address communications, control and audio. For example, if you are mixing from a laptop then how do you cue up, know when to play and actually play an effect or clip? Mixing with a laptop or tablet does not by itself seem to directly affect the issues your TD is raising.

I would argue that the aesthetic issue is no more relevant for theatre than for other applications and my experience is that it is often more of an issue in churches. You certainly do not want a FOH position to be an eyesore but the argument I have always used is that with few exceptions people are not coming to see the theatre, they are coming for the performance. When there is an audience the house lights are down more than they are up and once they are down the goal is usually to transport the audience to a different place. I appreciate a good looking space as much as anyone but will never understand compromising the performance capability or audience comfort for aesthetics in a performance space, even though I constantly have to deal with just such an approach.

If you rely on monitors in the booth you may also want to delay them so that you are hearing something that better represents the natural sound. It can be nice in some cases to be able to switch the booth monitors between delayed or undelayed based on what you are doing.

I don't think it has been noted but the potential advantages of mixing out in the audience will vary. From the physical space to the individual performance, there are many factors that could impact the differences between mixing in a booth versus out in the house. I've mixed in booths that were so close to some seating and so open that you basically ended up with all the negatives and none of the positives of being in a separate space, while in other cases the booth was so remote and isolated that there was little feeling of relation to the performance space. There are shows that are so unvarying that once you got through rehearsals there is little actual mixing occurring and others that can require a very different mix for every performance. There are shows that relate to a great deal of communication with others and others that require very little communication. Maybe you can pick a show that has a favorable combination of such factors.

The one thing about the TD's perspective that I do not understand is that this is a school and while you want to put on the best show possible, isn't it primarily supposed to be a learning experience for the students? Mixing from a FOH position is very common and it sounds like your venue was designed specifically to support it, so she seems to be limiting anyone gaining experience with that approach based solely on what she perceived as a problem at other venues. That does not seem to be taking advantage of the learning opportunities available. Maybe you can turn it around, was it mixing at FOH that was actually the problem she encountered or was it the students not knowing how to operate from FOH? How are you going to learn to work in that situation, or learn that you can't, if you aren't allowed the opportunity?


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## JChenault (May 18, 2010)

museav said:


> I am finding some of the comments offered quite interesting. For example, the suggestion of not using a headset and using visual signaling is in my experience is not necessarily effective and I find that visual signaling can be more distracting to patrons.



Brad
Can you expand on this a bit. While I am not a sound guy, it is not clear to me how someone doing a live mix in the house can do their job if they are on headset. ( Assuming a live mix that is 'strenuous' such as a musical )


My mental image is a lighting designer trying to set levels while wearing sunglasses. 

Thanks


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## bishopthomas (May 18, 2010)

It's not even like an LD using sunglasses, it's more like having an eye patch (single muff headset) or a blindfold (double muff headset) on. When I'm handed a headset I tell them that I will keep it around but will not be wearing it. If they need constant communication with then I will request an assistant to be "translator."


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## Scarrgo (May 18, 2010)

In our space I go through some of same problems with our director, as he thinks i might drop our new LS-9, and or he thinks the board op will talk to there friends too much. I prefer to have it at the in house position as it is where they will learn to hear what the audience really hears, As well as a time saver for me as I am writing light cues and sound cues(effects) and acting as SM, I dont have to run up two flights of stairs to help them if there are issues. I believe that working in this school with students, it is the place for them to make mistakes and learn from them.

Just my deflated .02 worth...

Sean...


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## Studio (May 18, 2010)

Thanks for all the ideas.

Our FX is a 3rd person separate from the board. Sound OPs don't get headsets, mainly because we don't have enough, and it never has been a problem. Our booth is so open we have to be quiet in the booth (whisper).

As for the script problem we have the same problem from the booth, as we are 3ft from the audience, and usually we get packets but we could

As far as appearance, the only thing would be our board and maybe a headset which isn't that bad looks wise. Mic receivers would be in the booth with a separate snake or on the table stacked nicely.

Anything I am missing??


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## bishopthomas (May 18, 2010)

Studio said:


> Our booth is so open we have to be quiet in the booth (whisper).
> 
> As for the script problem we have the same problem from the booth, as we are 3ft from the audience, and usually we get packets but we could



If sound gets out of the booth so easily then it should enter just as easily as well. I think you should learn how to mix in less than ideal situations as that will help you immensely in "real world" situations.


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## FMEng (May 22, 2010)

The trick to mixing in a booth is that the monitor speakers have to accurately represent what the audience hears in the house in all aspects. That isn't easy to do. Matching frequency response and loudness can be done with some effort. 

What you cannot reproduce in the booth with monitors is the ambient sound in the auditorium. The audience makes noise and the room contributes reverberation (how the sound decays with time). Un-miced sounds reach the audience from the stage. Some sound probably gets into the hall from outside and from mechanical systems. A good sound technician is subconsciously adjusting the mix based on the ambient sounds in the room, along with what he hears from the sound system.

Every time I have had to mix from an enclosed booth, I spend a lot of time during rehearsals poking my head out the door to listen to the hall to try and calibrate myself. Even when I do that successfully, I cannot account for the fact that most auditoriums sound different with people in them. Some rooms change radically with people in them, because the human body is much more sound absorbent than the seats and floor of an empty hall. Not only that, but the bodies don't absorb all frequencies evenly. The highs and mids are affected more than the bass energy. The amount of ambient reverberation can be reduced greatly by an audience. The loudness that was just right during rehearsal could be way too low with a full house because less sound is reflected through the room, and more is absorbed. There is no good way for the technician to compensate for this while mixing from the booth.

I would liken mixing sound in a booth to adjusting lighting while looking through a window that is heavily tinted in green. You have some idea of what you are doing, but you are never quite sure it is right because what you see is distorted in hue and brightness by the glass. In the same way, mixing in a booth with monitors is not an accurate representation of what the mix sounds like in the hall.


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## blalew (May 22, 2010)

FMEng said:


> The trick to mixing in a booth is that the monitor speakers have to accurately represent what the audience hears in the house in all aspects. That isn't easy to do. Matching frequency response and loudness can be done with some effort.



Agreed. Not only do the monitor speakers have to be accurate (usually most in the $300+/each range are close enough) but you need the actual listening space (booth) to be set up correctly - possible acoustical treatment & monitor placement based on acoustical modeling yada yada.

Even so, it won't sound the same. The auditorium vs a booth are radically different amounts of space/air. Audience reaction (I know I've bumped the master up based on loud laughter/cheering from the audience) is another factor.

To chime in on the other stuff - I don't mix with a headset on, it's impossible for me. I do have a PI Blazon & a telephone handset that I can hold to my head if I need to listen for a second, after they hit the call light.


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## museav (May 23, 2010)

blalew said:


> To chime in on the other stuff - I don't mix with a headset on, it's impossible for me. I do have a PI Blazon & a telephone handset that I can hold to my head if I need to listen for a second, after they hit the call light.


Keep in mind that the original topic was that the TD didn't want them mixing in the house because it was too distracting. A bright call light, one person on the intercom then communicating to another, etc. all seem to support that the TD is right, it would indeed be too distracting. I believe the focus should be on how to make it less potentially distracting.

I find it interesting that people are apparently worried about not being able to mix with a headset yet are apparently willing to mix in a booth acoustically separated from the audience area because "some shows just do not require it and the trade off is not worth it". That same argument seems to apply both ways and the shows where having a headset might be the biggest drawback for mixing would also seem to be the very ones where mixing from a booth would be most problematic. To me the difference is that one can easily use a headset only when needed while mixing from a booth is something you are pretty much stuck with all the time. Having a headset and/or headphones hanging around your neck while you mix seems easy enough to do, that way they're there when you need them and not when you don't.

The vibrate option on some beltpacks is also another approach for 'low impact' communication.


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## blalew (May 23, 2010)

Fair enough... it's difficult for me to mix sound while wearing a headset, but there are a few ways around the issue. One is to have an A2, an audio person wearing headset who's listening to cues (could be your SFX op) that passes anything along to the sound board op.

I used the telephone handset to hold to my head in less than 10 places in the show where I knew I needed to listen to a cue from the SM.



Much easier to use it (with the push-to-talk thingy) than have a typical head-vise-like headset, which honestly is not that easy to slip on & off.

The Blazon could be gaff'd down to just show a small bit of the light... and we only used it if the SM needed my immediate attention & I wasn't on com (I would announce going on/off). This would possibly be taken care of by having the SFX/playback op listening on headset. Usually all their stuff is pre-programmed anyway and so they're just pressing GO but as the board op I'm operating mutes, tweaking EQ & levels, etc.

Some shows may not need much mixing... just babysitting of levels of playback & tweaking, which may be fine from a booth. It's certainly possible to do it, but if it's possible to have the option for both, all the better! Ultimately you'll have to go with what the TD decides, maybe just offer to do the work to move everything out into the house for the beginning of tech week & if she doesn't like it, you'll move it back. Lots of work, but at least you'll have had a chance to show that you can do it (or find out that it's more of a problem than you realized).

Good luck!


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## Eboy87 (May 23, 2010)

A solution to the blazer, with due credit to Andy Leviss who turned me on to it. The Com-Bit Much more subtle than a strobe going off.


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## TimmyP1955 (May 23, 2010)

Yes, talking and page flipping at FOH can be distracting. So are the sniffles, burps, whispers, and crinkling candy wrappers of the audience members. Even more distracting is sound that is not up to par because the mixperson is stuck in a booth and cannot hear what the audience is hearing. Our FOH is immediately behind the back row, with a VERY large opening that wraps around a bit. Even with this comparative advantage, we still don't hear what the audience hears.


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## bishopthomas (May 23, 2010)

Eboy87 said:


> A solution to the blazer, with due credit to Andy Leviss who turned me on to it. The Com-Bit Much more subtle than a strobe going off.



That looks like an amazing product. I'm ordering a couple right now. Although, it doesn't look like it will pass signal through with only one connector. For $25 I won't complain.


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## FMEng (May 24, 2010)

I was reminded of this topic today as I was running sound in church. Normally, we have two services and the seating is around 30 to 50% full. Today, for Pentecost and confirmation, we had one service and the seating was mostly filled. I was having to run mics around 5 dB hotter than normal to make up for the increased absorbtion of the audience. That's a big change! If I had been mixing in an enclosed booth, it would have been too soft, and I would have been oblivious.

I would expect this room to be affected LESS by change in audience size than other spaces, because I had the acoustic engineer specify amount and type of the cushion materials on the pews to try and make the reverb time as consistent as possible from empty to full.


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## jevans (Jul 18, 2010)

acoppsa said:


> I have a similar issue at the moment with our Music Director. Except he said he doesn't want to because the equipment is too fragile to move.
> It's a brand new Soundcraft GB9 and all the connections are there. Surely moving it out of the booth once a year isn't going to be an issue!


 
Sorry there Aidan, it's a Soundcraft GB4!


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## gizm770o (Jul 19, 2010)

My sophomore year of HS the mix position was moved into the house permanently and it's awesome. Never once have I gotten a dirty look from a visitor. It makes verything sound better in addition to making my like easier. For my last show in college we moved the mix position to the back of the orchestra section. It was a hassale to get all the electrons where they needed to go but it was worth it. No way I could have mixed that show from the booth. If her concern is the talking and page turning, there is nothing to fear. Any time e've worked in the house i've been quiet and paid attention to what I was doing. I have had more complaints about noises (laughing, talking, clickclacking) about the LX crew in the booth than anything else.


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## techfreek (Jul 21, 2010)

We have made a sort of compromise at my high school. We were lucky enough to get a large theater, a large theater with an upper and lower balcony. So for musicals, we simply grab a few tables, set them up on the upper balcony, string a snake across from the booth, move all the gear we need over. This way we are closer to a FOH position, with out disturbing the audience too much (we close the upper balcony for musicals.... not like we ever get close to selling out)


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## arshan (Jul 22, 2010)

My 2 cents:

For me, mixing live sound from a booth (especially for a musical) should be a last resort. 
No matter what monitors, window, etc. you have for your booth, it will not sound the same. Besides calibrating monitors correctly, choice and especially placement of whatever mic you are using to feed those monitors is extremely tricky and makes a huge difference. I've never worked in a theater where the placement of program mics accurately reflected the house balance of direct stage sound to playback/reinforcement sound, let alone the proper EQ, reverb balance etc. already mentioned.

I'd fully support the idea of doing everything possible to quiet things down at the mix position in order to mix from the house. The best argument I could make is that a musical is about... well... the music. If its dead silent in the house with regards to page turns etc. but the whole thing sounds like crap, that's a much bigger failure than some thoughtful, carefully timed, slow page turns. I've never found cutting corners on the sound side of a musical to pay off and having to mix from a booth is a huge corner cut. Therefore, for me, the task (no matter how much of a pain it might be) is to figure out how to make FOH position work for everyone, or you risk giving up on the whole show IMHO.

-Arshan


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## 2mojo2 (Jul 31, 2010)

Brian:
I am a High School TD, and I would be happy to talk to yours.
You are on exactly the right track.
You should be mixing from front of house, that's why the connections are installed there.
That said, you do have to be VERY QUIET, so you do not distract the audience.

Maybe a little pipe and drape would help visually.


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## Studio (Aug 1, 2010)

Thank's for all the advice guys, I am going to talk to the TD who I know well and I will show her the positives and negatives and try to convince her. Again thanks for all the help.


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