# The right college



## gregeye (Feb 1, 2012)

Hello CB,

I am currently a freshman at Shenandoah University majoring in Scenic Lighting Design. First off, I want to say the school is amazing. Great people, great community, and amazing teachers. But it doesn't seem right for my major. Yes I love the school, I fit in, I have friends, but lighting wise, it just isn't here. There are no intelligent lights, no big opportunities until Junior year, and I feel like what their teaching I already know. Shenandoah was not my first choice for college, but it was between where I got accepted. I am really starting to think about the option of transferring to another college that I already applied for but didn't get in due to specific reasons. 

Any tips or ideas?

Thanks,
Greg


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## Grog12 (Feb 1, 2012)

Intelligent lighting does not make or break a program. Thier are plenty of shoddy schools with large ML inventories. 

You may feel like you know everything they're teaching but it's your freshman year, the year they have to make sure everyone's in the same page and know the basics. If your teachers are amazing as you claim then give them the benefit of the doubt and stay where you are for St least another year.


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## cbrandt (Feb 2, 2012)

Moving lights don't teach you how to design. They just make some things easier. You can always learn to program a fancy new console, or make use of a fancy new light, but the basics of the art and design parts of lighting can be learned just as easily with 60 year old lekos and a two scene present board.

Most college programs won't give you a chance to actually design or run a show until later in your education.

I ran into a similar situation in my college program, and I found two great ways to get experience outside of the normal curriculum. Summer stock and community theaters are a great place to learn things in a different way, and in a different environment. Sometimes you can even pick up some "free" credits.

The second thing is to get a group of other students together and do some theater on your own. Rent/borrow lights from the school, use classrooms, or auditoriums, or whatever space you can find. A student run theater association can be a very rewarding experience. Personally, I love learning by throwing myself into a situation where there isn't supervision, or a right way to do things, and figuring it out with a group of my peers.


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## mstaylor (Feb 3, 2012)

I agree with others, movers are not a make or break mark for a program. Personally I woulkd rather have somebody that has practical knowledge of manual boards and conventionals first. Any advanced programing and use of movers is a plus but certainly not needed. In my mind, movers make kids lazy. Designing without them will teach you the proper understanding of color, angles, gobos and other things important in good theatre design. There are enough OLEs for major boards to learn whatever board you wish. As far as knowing what you are already being taught, unlikely. I know when I came out of HS I thought I knew all about everything, I knew squat. I am now 36 years in the business and am still learning.


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## shiben (Feb 3, 2012)

gregeye said:


> Hello CB,
> 
> I am currently a freshman at Shenandoah University majoring in Scenic Lighting Design. First off, I want to say the school is amazing. Great people, great community, and amazing teachers. But it doesn't seem right for my major. Yes I love the school, I fit in, I have friends, but lighting wise, it just isn't here. There are no intelligent lights, no big opportunities until Junior year, and I feel like what their teaching I already know. Shenandoah was not my first choice for college, but it was between where I got accepted. I am really starting to think about the option of transferring to another college that I already applied for but didn't get in due to specific reasons.
> 
> ...


 
That actually sounds about normal for an undergrad program. Have you looked in to working for the events staff on campus? Often times, the non-theater auditoriums will be staffed by students who get paid and have a bit more opportunity to design shows and work all sorts of events. If you fit in and have friends, good teachers and whatnot, then I would say stay, its easier to do things like wait two years for a big opportunity if you like the people. If you hate them, look for a different school. However, MLs, top quality consoles, and the like are not as important as learning how to do art. None of my profesional contacts here in Chicago think its a particularly problematic issue to have not used MLs prior to working with them, its simply seen as fairly normal for someone at the vast majority of undergrad programs, and they are far more interested in a solid understanding of art and design. Now, if you wanted to be an ML tech or programmer exclusively, then your in the wrong place anyhow. But if you want to design, learn the art first, then add tools to make art as you go. No reason you cant do art without every tool ever. You can paint with like 1 or two brushes and 1 or 2 colors. Adding more makes it easier and expands what you can do, but you can make brilliant work with very minimal equipment.


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## gregeye (Feb 3, 2012)

I know that movers don't teach me design, but considering the industry now, they sure do help you in your future and I'd really like to learn more about them. The major here itself leans more towards scene design rather than lighting design so that is one of the reasons I'm considering transferring. The school does have a summer stock but I am not really into the idea of working at school during the summer. Plus, there would be nothing new in terms of equipment and in general except for bringing in outside actors. Most of my knowledge in this business I have collected from outside jobs such as internships, summerstock, and professional jobs, but paying this much money a year, I'd figure they would have more options in lighting. I do agree, learning the basics of technical theatre is a must and the first year here is exactly what it is. As far as future classes here, they don't offer much more for lighting so that is also a reason I'm thinking. Thanks


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## JFine (Feb 3, 2012)

You will encounter fewer movers in the world than you think you will, especially as a young designer. I came from a very similar style of program. There were two lighting classes, and I had taken both by the end of my sophmore year. My schools high end technology consisted of two I-cues and two forerunner scrollers. My professor had never worked with any kind of dmx toys and so I ended up teaching myself dmx addressing and how all of that stuff worked. 

I had a couple of great opportunities designing community theater shows that happened in my colleges theater each summer. The community theater group gave me a budget to work with and I was able to rent a couple of lower end movers. I taught myself how to use them and how to make them work for a show. It also introduced me to the world of dealing with a rental shop which are skills I still use frequently. 

For one of my shows at school, I was able to convince a VariLite rep to lend my school 6 movers and they paid for shipping both ways.

The greatest advantage that I got from going to a small program is that it forced me to figure out what I wanted and made me go out and get it for myself. And I did most of that without the support of the lighting professor (who is very old school and once I graduated had to cut the scrollers from the musical because he couldnt make them work).

I dont know if this is helpful, or applicable, but I just wanted to defend small programs because mine gave me so many opportunities. I am happy to talk with you further about my experiences and things that are out there to take advantage of.


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## MrsFooter (Feb 4, 2012)

Just out of curiosity, if you're more concerned with learning about movers than learning design why don't you just go to Full Sail? 

And for that matter, if you already know everything that your college has to teach you after one semester, why bother with college at all? Save yourself the student loans, take that money and go start working.


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## genericcomment (Feb 4, 2012)

I read everyone's reply on this thread and they're all nailing it on the head. I'm a graduating senior now but, when I first started I wanted to learn about all the toys. Which is why I found a school that had built a new theatre and arts complex. We have 9 Martin moving heads, color scrollers, moving mirrors, gobo rotators. Basically a toy chest. Now you might be thinking hey not fair, well let me say this. It's not about the technology it's about the art. My motivation to do lighting was great enough that they allowed me to design by the end of my sophomore year. If you show your amazing teachers you have a passion for this, I bet they will give you a chance sooner than your junior year. Back to the intelligent fixtures, honestly, I may have all these nice things but guess what, the lighting teacher I had doesn't know how to use them properly. I stepped up and read and asked questions to others in the industry about DMX and maintenance for our fixtures. I found out that I needed to read the instructions, so that I could use the equipment. Do summer stock, network, meet people, look for local crews to join for load-in and load-outs. If you still want to learn about about the fancier tech, read SD and PLSN and manufacturer's docs. Hope this helped.


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## museav (Feb 4, 2012)

gregeye said:


> There are no intelligent lights, no big opportunities until Junior year, and I feel like what their teaching I already know.


Just for some relative comparison, medical school students aren't operating on patients their Freshman year nor are Freshman law students writing contracts or working in trial court. Where I went to college Freshman Engineering is its own program and you weren't even majoring in a specific engineering discipline until after first going through that program.

I can't even begin to recall how many times later in my education or out in the professional world I've ended up thinking "that's why I had to learn that" in regards to something I initially thought was too basic or irrelevant and being glad then that I did learn it. I still recall really struggling with one aspect in a Calculus class only to a year later have it all make sense when without even thinking about it I found myself using that Calculus in an EE class. And that is what the first couple of years greatly are, laying the foundation for what comes later. Skip that aspect and you will be building on a weaker foundation, one that may fail when you most need it to support you.


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## shiben (Feb 4, 2012)

gregeye said:


> I know that movers don't teach me design, but considering the industry now, they sure do help you in your future and I'd really like to learn more about them. The major here itself leans more towards scene design rather than lighting design so that is one of the reasons I'm considering transferring. The school does have a summer stock but I am not really into the idea of working at school during the summer. Plus, there would be nothing new in terms of equipment and in general except for bringing in outside actors. Most of my knowledge in this business I have collected from outside jobs such as internships, summerstock, and professional jobs, but paying this much money a year, I'd figure they would have more options in lighting. I do agree, learning the basics of technical theatre is a must and the first year here is exactly what it is. As far as future classes here, they don't offer much more for lighting so that is also a reason I'm thinking. Thanks


 
Perhaps you should look for a conservatory program. I doubt they will let you use MLs and whatnot until your more advanced in their program, and you might be looking at 4 more years of school still, but it might fit your interests better. I can see where you might want to do "more", and it is possible that your school really isnt right for you in terms of what you want to learn. However, I would be SUPER hesitant to make a decision based on "they dont have movers and only have 2 classes". I would make the decision based on: What do I want to have when I enter the professional world: a balanced liberal arts degree or a more specialized fine arts degree? What do I want to end up doing? Will going to this school limit me in the future by not teaching me what I need to learn, or will it provide me with a broader foundation in art that I can build on in a solid MFA program later? Honestly, I think if your worried about the number of classes and whatnot, there might be more underlying issues with the school that perhaps you dont truly see... I know when I finally left my old school, I had realized that I really was more unhappy with the school itself, even though I tended to throw the blame on the technical prowess of the school. Once I realized that, it was pretty clear that going to a school that was not design focused had provided me a lot of opportunities, probably more than I would/will get in a future school, but that the school itself, the people there, and the core values of the school were not what I was looking to be involved with. For me, the small religious liberal arts school was not a good choice. Perhaps for you its a similar situation, your misgivings about the program are a reflection of discontent with the school in general? I know personally after having visited a bunch of schools and different program styles, and talking to a lot of people, that a school with a more focused BFA program is going to be a better choice for me, based on how I learn and work. I would at least consider that when you're making a decision like this. But Moving Lights? Everyone here says you can learn that at a place other than school, but you MUST have a nuanced understanding of art before you can properly use them. Food for though. I might be totally wrong.


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## Pie4Weebl (Feb 4, 2012)

MrsFooter said:


> Just out of curiosity, if you're more concerned with learning about movers than learning design why don't you just go to Full Sail?



Oh yeah, I forgot, if you're interested in learning with moving lights it automatically means you can't learn to design at the same time. 

There is a former CB student who was in much of the same gregeye, he first chose a small liberal arts school but quickly realized being a big fish in a small pond wasn't for him. He is now in a major conservatory and seems to be a lot happier with it. His networking opportunities are also much greater there in addition to a higher quality of education.


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## shiben (Feb 5, 2012)

Pie4Weebl said:


> Oh yeah, I forgot, if you're interested in learning with moving lights it automatically means you can't learn to design at the same time.


 
I dont think that is what was meant. And "No MLs" bring the primary reason to dislike a school is not a terribly great one. However, plenty of reasons to not totally fit in at a small liberal arts school, no? Also, often times students will learn to design, then work with MLs in their design, no place is gonna let some FNG go to town with the MLs. Just not gonna happen.


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## gregeye (Feb 6, 2012)

Yea all is very true. I am in a conservatory program so I am in the theatre a lot which is good, but there is just not a lot of options for lighting in terms of equipment, classes, ext. I am at college to learn about new equipment, get the basics down for design and I'm just not getting that all here. I am not planning on going to graduate school to learn about ML's.


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## shiben (Feb 6, 2012)

gregeye said:


> Yea all is very true. I am in a conservatory program so I am in the theatre a lot which is good, but there is just not a lot of options for lighting in terms of equipment, classes, ext. I am at college to learn about new equipment, get the basics down for design and I'm just not getting that all here. I am not planning on going to graduate school to learn about ML's.


 
So sounds like Full Sail is a better choice? You will learn about the latest in technology and the very basics of design. A conservatory will teach you nuanced design and the basics of technical equipment.


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## Pie4Weebl (Feb 7, 2012)

shiben said:


> So sounds like Full Sail is a better choice? You will learn about the latest in technology and the very basics of design. A conservatory will teach you nuanced design and the basics of technical equipment.


 Full sail isn't the better choice for anything ever.


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## Edrick (Feb 7, 2012)

Pie4Weebl said:


> Full sail isn't the better choice for anything ever.


 
Did someone say FullSail? 

I just got off the phone with my loan companies today trying to figure out how they'll ever get their 100k in money back. In and industry that I'll be lucky if I'm making 50k a year. I'm currently making maybe 20. 

Anywho Full Sail does have lots of good aspects and some bad expensive aspects. I will tell you this from what I learned at Full Sail has put me far above the game than a lot of graduates I've met from local state schools or art schools like Emerson. Sure if I wanted to spout theory all day and who directed what movie I'll call an Emerson kid. But when I want someone who knows how to work a set. I'll call a Full Sail kid, also let's not forget Full Sail is NOT a performing arts / theater school. They are a technical entertainment school for things like concerts, touring, live events and film.


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## shiben (Feb 7, 2012)

Pie4Weebl said:


> Full sail isn't the better choice for anything ever.


 
Got a better choice for somewhere to learn the straight low basics of design and intense technical skills with concerts and theater tech? I suppose a conserv program MIGHT have a very intense technical program, but I dont know of one... Any ideas?


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## Edrick (Feb 7, 2012)

I do highly recommend full sail if you want lots of hands on tech. Remember however it's not at all a theater program. We have no theater and you won't be lighting a theatrical set with conventionals nor doing scenic design.

You will learn boat loads on touring setups, concerts, corporate, live video ect...


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## Pie4Weebl (Feb 7, 2012)

I just can't get behind the economics of going to full sail. A guy I knew who went there graduated with over a hundred grand and debt, first job out of college was a $10 an hour shop shop which he simply couldn't live on, and he didn't even have a real degree to show for it.

If you can make the money work, and you want a focused education I suggest going to a conservatory where you still get some real classes, and with financial aid it can be a whole lot cheaper. I always rep Webster, but there is also CCM, NC-Arts, CMU, and that one in Purchase. But if you can't afford these schools with out crazy loans go get a job at a local rental shop and learn it on your own.


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## Edrick (Feb 7, 2012)

There's no doubt the cost is high. I'm in that same issue, I was offered $12.50 an hour to work as a PA and I did it for about a year for a production house doing Animal Planet, Science Channel, etc... but I'd never be able to afford to live off what their rates were. However Full Sail wasn't focused in TV Production, it was more the "New York, LA, Vancoover" style where you work on major motion pictures or reality tv or something and can actually make a days wages because they're usually hiring for skill and not the lowest paid person. The Full Sail degree is just as real if not more "real" than any other degree out there. I'd rather have paid what I paid to Full Sail than to some Liberal Arts school that makes me take English, Math, Science, physiatry and a bunch of other things i'll never use in my degree. It's made for a specific type of person, just like going to Emerson College for a Liberal Arts Degree in theater will cost you about 60k. 

Also FullSail can be attended in a reasonable manner if you know what you're doing. I did not in terms of financies and ended up in 100k of debt. Although it's not all Full Sails fault as it is the loan companies that want to bend you over backwards and shake your pockets for all your change with high interest rates. 

Full Sail is for a very specific person, you can go there and get the degree thinking you'll make 100k a year once you graduate but you'll be sadly mistaken. That type of industry it's training you for is all about who you know and you need to have that ambition. PBS here for example pays $19.95 starting for a Production Assistant.


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## gregeye (Feb 7, 2012)

Pie4Weebl said:


> I just can't get behind the economics of going to full sail. A guy I knew who went there graduated with over a hundred grand and debt, first job out of college was a $10 an hour shop shop which he simply couldn't live on, and he didn't even have a real degree to show for it.
> 
> If you can make the money work, and you want a focused education I suggest going to a conservatory where you still get some real classes, and with financial aid it can be a whole lot cheaper. I always rep Webster, but there is also CCM, NC-Arts, CMU, and that one in Purchase. But if you can't afford these schools with out crazy loans go get a job at a local rental shop and learn it on your own.


 
I applied to all those schools you mentioned other than Purchase and Full sail because I didn't feel the click I did in terms of the other schools as well as some other aspects. I got into Webster but not the theatre department because they already had too many LD majors. Webster was my top choice for college and if it's possible, I'd really like to see if transferring is possible.


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## shiben (Feb 7, 2012)

gregeye said:


> I applied to all those schools you mentioned other than Purchase and Full sail because I didn't feel the click I did in terms of the other schools as well as some other aspects. I got into Webster but not the theatre department because they already had too many LD majors. Webster was my top choice for college and if it's possible, I'd really like to see if transferring is possible.


 
Then do it! One thing I wish I had realized about 3 years ago is you sometimes just need to bite the bullet and go for it. Would have saved me a ton of pain, 2 years and 50k (probably more, but in tuition alone) effectively wasted. Worst thing that happens is they dont let you in, and your stuck for a bit, but you can take the time to build a resume and high grades. If you can do that, your transfer will go better. If your grades are low, you might be looking at a hard time. 


I would also check out a couple of schools in Chicago here as well, possibly a bit cheaper and still focused arts education. The thing is, you do want to look deeply, because a big program usually knows it, and charges accordingly. Additionally, getting into some of them means you need to be brilliant, but there are plenty of smaller yet extremely high quality programs, the only way to find out if any of them really meet what you want to do is visit them with a list of specific questions, and ask both students in the program and professors for the program, as well as the admissions people.


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## Footer (Feb 7, 2012)

gregeye said:


> Webster was my top choice for college and if it's possible, I'd really like to see if transferring is possible.


 
Keep in mind Webster is a conservatory program which are usually very difficult to transfer credits in and out of. You could be throwing away your first year completely. 

Biggest thing here... have you actually talked to any of your professors about your problem with the program? Also, it sounds like that the program you are in was the only one that wanted you... have you done anything to change this since you started college?


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## Pie4Weebl (Feb 8, 2012)

gregeye said:


> I applied to all those schools you mentioned other than Purchase and Full sail because I didn't feel the click I did in terms of the other schools as well as some other aspects. I got into Webster but not the theatre department because they already had too many LD majors. Webster was my top choice for college and if it's possible, I'd really like to see if transferring is possible.


If you have any questions about Webster feel free to PM me.


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## gregeye (Feb 14, 2012)

Footer said:


> Keep in mind Webster is a conservatory program which are usually very difficult to transfer credits in and out of. You could be throwing away your first year completely.
> 
> Biggest thing here... have you actually talked to any of your professors about your problem with the program? Also, it sounds like that the program you are in was the only one that wanted you... have you done anything to change this since you started college?



I have not yet....I am a bit concerned about what they would say. The program I am in was the only one I was interested in, Scenic Lighting Design, so other programs weren't really interested.


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## josh88 (Feb 14, 2012)

when I was in college we realized we weren't getting a full education and were graduating people who didn't really know how to do anything from A-Z and therefore couldn't really work in the tech world. We wrote a letter to the chair, and voiced our problems, and talked about what we'd like from our education and essentially redirected the program completely, now they've got a real strong program and it was thanks to us doing what we needed to get the education we deserved. Not all heads or faculty are going to be as receptive to that, but our case was "hey there are some serious points missing here" and we knew the chair well and he was a reasonable guy. So sit and talk with someone you know and trust and just write out what you personally want and see if there is some way to make it happen.


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## Dillon (Feb 17, 2012)

If you're itching to learn ML's in order to jumpstart your career, considering attending Vari*Lite's (or Martin's, etc.) certification/training program on a break from school.


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## LXPlot (Feb 28, 2012)

josh88 said:


> when I was in college we realized we weren't getting a full education and were graduating people who didn't really know how to do anything from A-Z and therefore couldn't really work in the tech world. We wrote a letter to the chair, and voiced our problems, and talked about what we'd like from our education and essentially redirected the program completely, now they've got a real strong program and it was thanks to us doing what we needed to get the education we deserved. Not all heads or faculty are going to be as receptive to that, but our case was "hey there are some serious points missing here" and we knew the chair well and he was a reasonable guy. So sit and talk with someone you know and trust and just write out what you personally want and see if there is some way to make it happen.



Curiously, where did you go to school? I remember from somewhere you mentioning that you were a fellow victim of Ohio, was it somewhere here?


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## josh88 (Feb 29, 2012)

LXPlot said:


> Curiously, where did you go to school? I remember from somewhere you mentioning that you were a fellow victim of Ohio, was it somewhere here?



I grew up right on the lake, went to college at bowling green, just missing the new facility they have now, and also lived in columbus for awhile too.


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## cwrench (Feb 29, 2012)

The Entertainment Technology Degree at New York City College of Technology is a low cost (under 5k each year) educational opportunity in the heart of the business. Check it out at: DEPARTMENT OF ENTERTAINMENT TECHNOLOGY

You will find a complete set of technical courses here. Love to expound on this college but it would be too much to advertise here on the board so I'll quit now.

Prof Chip Scott


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## LXPlot (Feb 29, 2012)

josh88 said:


> I grew up right on the lake, went to college at bowling green, just missing the new facility they have now, and also lived in columbus for awhile too.



I have a friend at BGSU right now who's doing some stuff in the new facility. I've heard about it and it seems pretty sweet.


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## josh88 (Feb 29, 2012)

LXPlot said:


> I have a friend at BGSU right now who's doing some stuff in the new facility. I've heard about it and it seems pretty sweet.



yeah, its all brand new, state of the art, all new shop gear, lights, boards, everything. I may end up back there. Is your friend a major? I may know him/her


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## Footer (Feb 29, 2012)

cwrench said:


> The Entertainment Technology Degree at New York City College of Technology is a low cost (under 5k each year) educational opportunity in the heart of the business. Check it out at: DEPARTMENT OF ENTERTAINMENT TECHNOLOGY
> 
> You will find a complete set of technical courses here. Love to expound on this college but it would be too much to advertise here on the board so I'll quit now.
> 
> Prof Chip Scott



Please do... and bring John along! City Tech is a very interesting program. At one point I had planned to do the show control certificate program. It is really a good option if you want to get into the industry and get some outside work as well.


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