# ION is almost here!



## gafftaper (Aug 9, 2007)

Here's the webpage.


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## jmabray (Aug 9, 2007)

Well.... Since they put up the webpage, I guess I can talk about it more now. I was told that I couldn't really talk much about it before.

What do you guys want to know? Orders will begin being taken as of Sept 16 for a Nov 17th Ship date. (Right before LDI)

List price of the base desk is around 7 grand - but that does not include training and there will be factory training with the desk included (as I understand it) so the price will probably be a little more, but I really don't know how much. The fully tricked out version is around the 13 grand range, but the same provisions apply.

Other questions?

Jeff


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## gafftaper (Aug 9, 2007)

Yeah I just got the new 2007-2008 ETC catalog in the mail today and there's ION. So I ran over and searched the website and there it was. They still don't have the link up on the console page but it's searchable so they aren't trying too hide it. 

So does it have the same basic software as EOS? Just less channels, universes, and high end bells and whistles? Or is it completely different?


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## Pie4Weebl (Aug 10, 2007)

so from reading the description I have a quick question, can the expansion wings give me channel faders like the insight?


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## jmabray (Aug 10, 2007)

Gaff: Same basic software as the Eos, which means it is a tracking console by default.

Pie4Weebl: As I understand it, the expansion wings are submaster wings. You can set your channels and subs 1-to-1 and that would accomplish what you want.


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## SteveB (Aug 10, 2007)

Pie4Weebl said:


> so from reading the description I have a quick question, can the expansion wings give me channel faders like the insight?



I assume you mean using the playbacks with an individual channel assigned ?. With Insight a sub is still a sub, but maybe with a single channel assigned, which essentially makes it a channel fader as on the Express. 

The Eos manual and data sheet states that the 10 on-board motorized faders, and I assume the 40 on the playback wing, can be faders/playbacks, submasters, masters and grand masters. The manual states that a submaster can control channels, incluiung individual channels. 

I going to assume that this is going to carry over to the Ion, which has the ability for upwards of 240 submasters via the playback wings. I'm assuning that the playback faders are just that, not simply a sub.

I'm looking forward to the release.

Steve Bailey
Brooklyn College


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## jmabray (Aug 10, 2007)

SteveB said:


> I assume you mean using the playbacks with an individual channel assigned ?. With Insight a sub is still a sub, but maybe with a single channel assigned, which essentially makes it a channel fader as on the Express.
> The Eos manual and data sheet states that the 10 on-board motorized faders, and I assume the 40 on the playback wing, can be faders/playbacks, submasters, masters and grand masters. The manual states that a submaster can control channels, incluiung individual channels.
> I going to assume that this is going to carry over to the Ion, which has the ability for upwards of 240 submasters via the playback wings. I'm assuning that the playback faders are just that, not simply a sub.
> I'm looking forward to the release.
> ...




I don't know that all those features are going to carry over. The faders on the multiple styles of wings are not motoroized, for one. And as I was told, the faders are only submasters (at this time.) It may be possible in the future that that feature will change, but as I understand it, the fader wings will only be subs. There will be 3 different configurations of fader wings

a 2 x 10 - 2 rows of 10 faders each (looks a lot like a half fader wing from a congo jr)
a 2 x 20 - 2 rows of 20 faders each (looks a lot like the full fader wing from a congo Jr)

and the final 1 x 20 - this is designed to be attached to the top of the console to provide a row of subs at that location.

Also as I understand it, you can attach a total of 6 fader wings to the console. That would provide a total of 240 physical submasters on one console. I do not know if there are going to be multiple pages of those submasters.

Does that make sense?


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## Grog12 (Aug 10, 2007)

Yeah it makes sense.....but its a little unfortunate that they become just subs.

Its a sign I read too many comic books when I come in here thinking isn't he Parallex now? (Green stars to whoever gets that reference.)


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## Jezza (Aug 10, 2007)

Yes, I think that limiting the functionality of these faders as simply subs and not playbacks for different cue stacks is going to be one of the consoles major drawbacks. 

Sure, people have been using the Expression 3 with only 2 "playback" faders and several other subs forever, but no one ever tried to to run a serious amount of MLs or effects of an Expression 3, it's just too time consuming. It seems as though ETC would like end users to use more MLs and LED units with the ION due to the onboard effects package, greater DMX channels, and the capablity for 2 outboard touch screens. However, without the ability to create multiple cue stacks and the ability to use multiple playbacks, the console becomse very limited to fully pre-programed theater, dance, etc as opposed to being able to work in the concert world as well where its all about busking a show. 

Given that, I would be MORE than happy to spec this console for my next theatrical or corporate gig, however, I would be reticent to bring it in for any concert. But I guess that's where they want you to be using the EOS and not the ION. Still, its a great move on ETCs part to bring in the world a console that imitates the functionality and protocol of the EOS. It will allow a seemless integreation of ION to EOS. Kudos ETC -- now just get one out to Poughkeepsie NY so I can demo one!


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## SteveB (Aug 10, 2007)

I cannot imagine any of the faders NOT having playback capability, as there seemingly are no actual playbacks on the desk. That would be somewhat pointless, especially as the Congo Jr. playback wings are just that - playback wings. Limiting the faders to subs makes no sense, but I admit that we (I) am creating an issue without any hard data. 

I can tell you that when I saw the news this morning, and a thanks to gafftaper for the post, I was (am) extremely excited. I guessing the sales for this console iare going to HUGE.

SB


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## jmabray (Aug 10, 2007)

There is a main playback pair on the desk. I do know that for sure. 

As for more playbacks, i don't know exactly how that is going to work. I may be mistaken, but i could have sworn that I was told, that the fader wings were just subs.


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## Grog12 (Aug 10, 2007)

With the Expression line....it wasn't really two separate playbacks was it? It was more of two playbacks playing one list.


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## Jezza (Aug 10, 2007)

true true -- but that is where subroutines came into play -- I guess you could say they faked multiple cue stack effects on one cue stack.


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## SteveB (Aug 10, 2007)

Jezza said:


> true true -- but that is where subroutines came into play -- I guess you could say they faked multiple cue stack effects on one cue stack.



Well, they allowed you to put a cue stack (subroutine) on a sub (note that this only with the Emphasis console), but the "stack" still gets over-ridden when you play another sub w/ subroutine on it, or if you run a cue on the fader pairs. Even with Emphasis, the console does not allow multiple cuestacks on independent time-lines to run simultaneously, the way you can on Congo or supposadly on Eos. 

Which is why I'm going to have faith in ETC and assume that any add-on fader wings to Ion is going to allow assorted playbacks. 

SB


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## gafftaper (Aug 10, 2007)

To those who are upset about the possibility that the subs are just subs... 

This console is designed and priced to fit into (and rumor has it replace) the Express end of the ETC product line, not the Obsession end. So it's not really meant for people who do ton's of movers. They already have that in Congo, Jr, and EOS. This is the community theater, school, and church part of the new ETC product line. Users who might regularly use a gobo rotator or an I-cue but are unlikely to own much more than that... playing back cue stacks is not a priority for that part of the market.


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## jmabray (Aug 10, 2007)

True, Gaff, true. Only one correction. Express is staying. You can still buy one if you want to. Now, why you would want to is beyond me, but you still can....



Also - Let me be clear in one thing here. The opinion's express here are mine, all mine. You can share them if you like, but they don't necessarily reflect the opinions of my employer or any manufacturer my employer may represent.

Not that anyone is holding ETC to anything I say, but I just want to make sure that is out there and on the record. Thanks!

Jeff


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## DarSax (Aug 10, 2007)

Wow, that thing is puny. I mean, granted it's pretty much all the programming/playback buttons and encoders of a fairly powerful board without faders, and it's designed to be cheap, but I can't help looking at it and thinking it's almost uncomfortably small.


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## jmabray (Aug 10, 2007)

It is the same form factor as the Congo Jr. (by the by, does anyone remember the old microvision FX console that they loved so dearly? Does any console or two look similar these days?)

I assure you, it is very well built. It does feel very good under your fingers and will hold up to touring rather well I would imagine.


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## gafftaper (Aug 10, 2007)

DarSax said:


> Wow, that thing is puny. I mean, granted it's pretty much all the programming/playback buttons and encoders of a fairly powerful board without faders, and it's designed to be cheap, but I can't help looking at it and thinking it's almost uncomfortably small.



Well if it's the same size as Jr. it's a decent size. My only complaint is that it's a bit of a let down in it's appearance. Congo and Jr. both look like they are made in the Bat Cave. Eos looks like you get to run lights from Mr. Spock's personal console. Ion looks like something very functional they would use in the real space program... which isn't nearly as sexy as the fictional world.


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## jmabray (Aug 10, 2007)

Oh - neat little feature that I need to mention here..

The Phone Remote.

If you have a congo or a congo jr, you know what I am talking about. This is a feature that is standard to the console that allows you to go down to wally world and pick up a 10 dollar cordless phone and plug it into the console. With that you get a limited wireless remote control. You don't get every feature available to the desk, but definitely those ones that you need when you have to go up to the catwalks and do some touch up focus when you are by your self..... 

Its neat little feature, just thought i would share.


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## farmerjo1111 (Aug 10, 2007)

The Phone Remote is not going to be enabled at this time on the ION. The listing of that feature on the website should be removed shortly. As of right now the Universal wings are meant for Submasters only. I will pass on the comment about the Wings being more than just subs. If you have any questions I will be more than happy to help you.

Jeff: What Rep firm are you with. 

Dustin Strobush
ETC Systems Estimator.


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## SteveB (Aug 10, 2007)

farmerjo1111 said:


> The Phone Remote is not going to be enabled at this time on the ION. The listing of that feature on the website should be removed shortly. As of right now the Universal wings are meant for Submasters only. I will pass on the comment about the Wings being more than just subs. If you have any questions I will be more than happy to help you.
> Jeff: What Rep firm are you with.
> Dustin Strobush
> ETC Systems Estimator.



I'm going to rant a bit.

I 'dunno, maybe it's just me, but I have to wonder where ETC is going with this, based on what I've read here, some of it from folks with obvious inside info. And I may well just need to await more - and correct information.
I see a website with a product described with assorted features. I have no problems if they decide it's too early to release certain features, such as phone remote. But the description is prominent in listing "Providing fully integrated control of conventional and moving lights". It goes on to describe "4x1000 pallettes - intensity, focus, color, beam" as well as having 4 pageable encoders right on the desktop. If this little unit isn't a baby Eos, then when are we going to see one ?. 

I for one, do not need a replacement for a Microvision. I need a replacement for an Express with Emphasis, which is just barely a year old and has not lived up to the expectations as described on the website. 

I hope that's not the case here with Ion.

For someone to tell me that the add-on fader wings will not run playbacks, or that the Ion is not going to allow multiple cue stack playback via those faders, seems to me a deleberate dumbing down of what could be a very hot product. Perhaps allowing one fader wing of the users choice (1x10, 2x20 etc...) to be actual playbacks, with any other fader wings attached only allowing submasters, might allow the desk to offer just enough functionality without competing with other in-house products, but in any case, SOME form of multiple playbacks is essential for this console to have any use controlling ML's, which is how it's described. 

I most emphatically do NOT see Congo, or Congo Jr. as the middle of the product line, placed between Eos and Ion. The Congo syntax and OS is simply too different a product and if ETC decides this is so, then they just lost a customer here for what could be 3 replacement consoles for existing Express's, as well as new console(s) for a $75 million PAC building with 2 new theaters. 

I also have issues with using a $20 cordless telephone as a remote focus unit, so perhaps that needs to get re-thought as well, or maybe I'm missing something and it's an amazing idea - I just don't see it. A dedicated RFU, wired or not (I prefer wireless) makes my life much easier when the bloody buttons on the RFU are duplicating what's on the actual console. Please don't tell me I have to teach a newbie that the Flash button on the phone really means Macro. Or that Re-Dial goes to Blind. Sorry, but I don't need hidden functionality.

Note, that as I commented on in an earlier post, I am aware that all this is putting the cart way before the horse, but cannot help but feel that ETC is way late on getting replacements out there for Express and Expression, and I wonder if they've been listening......

Steve Bailey
Brooklyn College
Rant over


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## Jezza (Aug 10, 2007)

I'm going to have to side with you on almost all of this Steve.

I don't need a replacement Microvision either. To me, the console looks and sounds much like a HOG II with out the ability of multiple cue stacks and some of the great functionality of the EOS. 

This console SHOULD fill up the void that is created by discontinuing the Expression line -- when all is said that is its goal. But, it should also be a mini EOS with perhaps less output capability, no internal touch screens, and less playbacks, but basically running the same OS and utilizing the same controls and power.

I for one, as I'm sure others would like as well, to be able to move seamlessly between the Eos and the Ion and the Congo and Congo Jr. I would like it to all behave the same way, all be the same OS (relatively) however just with different hardware setups and different features. I don't need a board that claims to be a ML board with encoders and pallets and playback wings with only the same functionality of an Expression console.

Expression with Emphasis was an upgrade to address the problems and the faults of the Expression line when trying to evoke more and control and more power out of the console. Why build the ION based around the EOS, and then strip it down so much to the point where it is non functional? 

Ok, so the target market is schools, churches, and community theater. How often do they need 2048 channels of DMX, 4 encoder wheels, and the options for touch screens and playback wings. Don't get me wrong, its great to have those options when you want to, and when the budget at those venues can support it, but more often then not I find those types of venues barely have it in their budgets for gel and bulbs, much less ML rentals. In that case, they would be much better off with the Express line which is catered to exactly their needs. 

The phone RFU thing: come on. Yes, excellent, cheap solution for schools or churches or community theater. But if ETC wants to market this to professionals, and claim that it is "road worth" then make a real RFU for it. Why not just use the same WRFU for the EOS? Oh wait, EOS doesn't have one...


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## gafftaper (Aug 10, 2007)

First Steve I really respect you're opinions and I'm definitely not trying to start a flame war here. 

However, I really have to disagree with you on Congo. I've heard a lot of disgust at Congo from many people, not just you, and I really don't get it. It's a very cool console with a lot of features that fit very firmly between Eos and Ion. But you have to sit down and take an hour to learn a different programing syntax... give it a week to master. BIG DEAL! I can't believe how many people I've talked to who think that a change programing syntax is worth completely disregarding an entire product? If you decide to switch to Strand, HES, GrandMA... your going to have to go through a similar learning curve anyway. I say judge Congo on what it can or can't do. Ignoring it because if it's language syntax is a big mistake. 

On the other hand I have to completely agree with you on that telephone remote. It's really amateur and silly compared to what Strand has put in their PDA remote. Yeah there's $1000 price difference but come on. Why not make a interface that works with a standard Palm PDA. You could sell it for $500 with the PDA, or a couple hundred for those who already own one. Don't cut corners on the software, allow full cue recording and playback on the PDA... they have the horsepower to handle most of it. ETC's approach of ... you just spent $15,000 on a console, now buy a $10 phone and you're all set just makes no sense to me.


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## SteveB (Aug 10, 2007)

gafftaper said:


> However, I really have to disagree with you on Congo. I've heard a lot of disgust at Congo from many people, not just you, and I really don't get it. It's a very cool console with a lot of features that fit very firmly between Eos and Ion. But you have to sit down and take an hour to learn a different programing syntax... give it a week to master. BIG DEAL! I can't believe how many people I've talked to who think that a change programing syntax is worth completely disregarding an entire product? If you decide to switch to Strand, HES, GrandMA... your going to have to go through a similar learning curve anyway. I say judge Congo on what it can or can't do. Ignoring it because if it's language syntax is a big mistake. .



I totally agree that Congo and Jr. are terrific consoles and stand on there own meritts. I also should sit down and play with one before writing off the idea.

The problem is that the ETC is the 800 lbs gorilla in the industry and I feel like the marketing department is trying to sell me a bag of goods by placing Congo and Jr. in the same product line as Eos and now Ion. 

What has been needed out of Middleton, and what EVERYBODY has been hoping for, for far too long now, is a Strand like console line, with the same OS and syntax from the $40,000 top-of-the-line to the 2 scene preset basic console. Congo, for all it's design advantages, is still a Swedish lighting console and I cannot think that a lot of facility managers are going to want a basic Ion-Vision style, simple cue-ing console in a black box, then a Congo with RPN in the 500 seat, then an Eos in the 2500 seat rental hall. I have that kind of facility and I'm not doing that. Congo basically breaks the continuity in the learning curve for users and Ion-Vision is seemingly (and currently with limited information) too basic for many users. 

My $.02 and I really hope ETC is listening

Steve Bailey
Brooklyn College


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## gafftaper (Aug 10, 2007)

SteveB said:


> I totally agree that Congo and Jr. are terrific consoles and stand on there own meritts. I also should sit down and play with one before writing off the idea.
> The problem is that the ETC is the 800 lbs gorilla in the industry and I feel like the marketing department is trying to sell me a bag of goods by placing Congo and Jr. in the same product line as Eos and now Ion.
> What has been needed out of Middleton, and what EVERYBODY has been hoping for, for far too long now, is a Strand like console line, with the same OS and syntax from the $40,000 top-of-the-line to the 2 scene preset basic console. Congo, for all it's design advantages, is still a Swedish lighting console and I cannot think that a lot of facility managers are going to want a basic Ion-Vision style, simple cue-ing console in a black box, then a Congo with RPN in the 500 seat, then an Eos in the 2500 seat rental hall. I have that kind of facility and I'm not doing that. Congo basically breaks the continuity in the learning curve for users and Ion-Vision is seemingly (and currently with limited information) too basic for many users.
> My $.02 and I really hope ETC is listening
> ...



No offense to our ETC friends here... but that's exactly why I keep saying that ETC is king of the industry *for the moment*. With ETC and Strand both busy rolling out new lines of products, it's a huge gamble, and either brand could easily sink the other. True Strand has a bad customer service reputation, but with new ownership, that could change easily enough. What if EOS/Congo/ION is just lame compared to the Palette series? Just because Expression-Obsession has been the dominate console line in the industry doesn't mean EOS and ION will be. The industry existed before ETC and it will exist after ETC. Who know's maybe Zero 88 will come out with the next industry shaking console and ETC and Strand will be left in the dust.

And you can bet ETC, Strand, and Zero88 are listening.


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## DarSax (Aug 10, 2007)

Granted, I have no experience with either the EOS or Congo OS, so I don't know if anything I say will be far off the mark.

I though the ION would be something like the Express brought into the graphical user interface age. It would even look a lot, physically, like the Express series did, but with better ML control, like some encoder wheels and different options for playback. Heck, I was hoping it could even work as a two scene preset board like the Express did. The OS would be more intuitive and streamlined, more like XP or Vista and less like MS-DOS. 

To be honest, I thought it'd be something like this. Except with encoder wheels, but even that might have been reaching.

Is it just me, or is the closest thing ETC sells to an Express a Smartfade on the low end or the EOS on the high end? That's one hell of a jump.

Just my I've-been-out-of-a-theater-mindset-for-three-weeks-so-I'm-out-of-it 2 cents.


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## Pie4Weebl (Aug 10, 2007)

DarSax, I'm right in the same mindframe as you for what I wanted from the ion, basically an express that isn't a 10 year old board. I think etc has delivered this and I think this board would work great as a replacement for express boards. For those complaining about only one stack of cues, this board isn't for you, go get a road hog. IMO, this board is for theatres which usually only run on one stack of cues.


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## gafftaper (Aug 11, 2007)

Yeah I've got to agree with Pie. I see the point that Steve has for a huge operation with multiple theaters wanting to have one basic software setup that works on multiple levels... and Strand is out there with that option if that's a deal breaker. But Ion is there for the small theater that has a couple pieces of DMX gear but mostly conventional. Congo is a real nice fit for the moderate size intelligent gear operation. The on board effects generator makes it really easy to program moving lights. And EOS is for the Broadway/Vegas and other high end venues. 

Oh and for the concern about the 2 scene preset, that "2X10" and "2X20" description of wing panels along with the ability to add 240 faders sure makes it sound like there may be a possibility of running in a 2 scene preset mode. 
Do either of our ETC guys know anything about that?


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## icewolf08 (Aug 11, 2007)

Let me add my two cents here. I am still waiting for some more info from Karl (for those of you who don't know I keep in good contact with Karl Haas of ETC) who says he is going to give me a call on Monday. At the moment all I know is that there is something funny with that link to the ION, details of which I should get on Monday. I also should be getting an ION demo early in Sept.

As I understand, and it seems that most have gathered, the ION is the replacement to the Express/ion line of consoles. When you really look at the ETC line as of before the EOS, there really was no middle ground console between Expression and Obsession. Sure, you could go Express -> Expression -> Obsession, but ultimately the only difference between Express and Expression is outputs and enconders, the software is the same. I just don't think that Congo was intended to be, or ever will be a gap filler, it is a different class console in it's own little world.

So, where does Ion fit in? Well, it kind of is a baby EOS, but it is priced in the same range as the Express/ion. ION is supposed to mesh power and ease of use into an affordable package that will be ideal for schools and small to mid size venues.

Playback and subs. The ION is a replacement to the Express/ion line, there was no such thing as a playback on those consoles. There was only one cue list on the Expression. If you need that functionality you shouldn't be buying the low end board. Also, I hate to break it, but 2-scene preset is a technology of the past. No one is butting in systems anymore that have few enough dimmers to make 2 scene preset practical, and as more an more small venues and schools are putting in intelligent gear, it again, isn't practical to have 2-scene preset. Memory consoles are where we are and where we are going. So, you can get submaster wings if you need direct tactile access to channels or scenes.

It's kind of like this, if you are currently using an Obsession, Congo, or Strand 500 series the ION may not be the console for you, so you get an EOS. Really only the Congo doesn't compare in the price range there. If you are using an Express/ion, or Strand 300 then you are the target market for the ION.

As for compatibility between EOS and ION, I believe that is supposed to be the case, but I can't say for sure yet. I will give whatever info I can get on Monday after I talk to Karl.


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## gafftaper (Aug 12, 2007)

icewolf08 said:


> Let me add my two cents here. I am still waiting for some more info from Karl (for those of you who don't know I keep in good contact with Karl Haas of ETC) who says he is going to give me a call on Monday. At the moment all I know is that there is something funny with that link to the ION, details of which I should get on Monday. I also should be getting an ION demo early in Sept.
> As I understand, and it seems that most have gathered, the ION is the replacement to the Express/ion line of consoles. When you really look at the ETC line as of before the EOS, there really was no middle ground console between Expression and Obsession. Sure, you could go Express -> Expression -> Obsession, but ultimately the only difference between Express and Expression is outputs and enconders, the software is the same. I just don't think that Congo was intended to be, or ever will be a gap filler, it is a different class console in it's own little world.
> So, where does Ion fit in? Well, it kind of is a baby EOS, but it is priced in the same range as the Express/ion. ION is supposed to mesh power and ease of use into an affordable package that will be ideal for schools and small to mid size venues.
> Playback and subs. The ION is a replacement to the Express/ion line, there was no such thing as a playback on those consoles. There was only one cue list on the Expression. If you need that functionality you shouldn't be buying the low end board. Also, I hate to break it, but 2-scene preset is a technology of the past. No one is butting in systems anymore that have few enough dimmers to make 2 scene preset practical, and as more an more small venues and schools are putting in intelligent gear, it again, isn't practical to have 2-scene preset. Memory consoles are where we are and where we are going. So, you can get submaster wings if you need direct tactile access to channels or scenes.
> ...



If there's "something funny" with the ION link it isn't a big deal. The new ETC 2007-2008 catalog has almost exactly the same information. Much of the text is exactly the same. If there is a mistake in the content of the web page it is subtle. 

Maybe they didn't intend for me to find the page, but they did mail me the catalog with nearly the same information, which led me to the search function on the website, which brought up that webpage... so their security is a bit poor if they didn't want people to know about it. 

By the way, the catalog lists the following accessories: Ion Lighting Playback Controller, Net3 Remote Video Interface, Radio Focus Remote, Ion Client Software Kit, and the three fader wings. So it sounds like they don't plan on the phone remote option.


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## jmabray (Aug 12, 2007)

> s.
> 
> I also have issues with using a $20 cordless telephone as a remote focus unit, so perhaps that needs to get re-thought as well, or maybe I'm missing something and it's an amazing idea - I just don't see it. A dedicated RFU, wired or not (I prefer wireless) makes my life much easier when the bloody buttons on the RFU are duplicating what's on the actual console. Please don't tell me I have to teach a newbie that the Flash button on the phone really means Macro. Or that Re-Dial goes to Blind. Sorry, but I don't need hidden functionality.



As for the phone remote, As Dustin has said, this is not going to be enabled at this time. However, If/when it is enabled, I was led to believe that it will function the same way as the one on the Congo line does. Let me be clear though - This is not the only remote for the desk. This is a way for smaller less affluent spaces to get a remote. There is a new remote coming out for both the Congo and the Eos/Ion that is a dedicated Radio Frequency Remote. The device has two encoder wheels built into it as well as a 4 line LCD Display. This is the remote that is geared toward the professional houses that you are looking for, Steve. I only brought this up as a neat little thing that the console can do that will help out some lower budget facilities, not as the end all/be all of the console. Looks like it would have been better to keep my mouth shut.

Dustin, I am in Dallas.

As for the subs vs. playback issues discussed here - I don't know what the reasoning was behind choices made, I am only the messenger here. There is alot to be said for both lines of thought.


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## SteveB (Aug 12, 2007)

Alex, some great comments here


icewolf08 said:


> "As I understand, and it seems that most have gathered, the ION is the replacement to the Express/ion line of consoles. When you really look at the ETC line as of before the EOS, there really was no middle ground console between Expression and Obsession. Sure, you could go Express -> Expression -> Obsession, but ultimately the only difference between Express and Expression is outputs and enconders, the software is the same."
> 
> Sort of. I believe that Expression and Insight, in terms of cost was almost smack dab in the middle of the price range between Express ($5,000 - $7,500), with Insight and Expression at around $15,000 and Obsession II up around $30,000. Just a different OS for Obsession that was a result of ETC needing a tracking console for Broadway.
> 
> ...


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## jmabray (Aug 12, 2007)

Here's the thing about this desk, (and it's big brother EOS) 

While the physical hardware may be locked, the software is so very far from it. With Express and Expression, we are looking at locked software. (the last feature release software for the Express was released in what, 2000? 2001?) The software for these desks in in it's initial release (or very close to it) Eos is at 1.1 (with additional updates on the way shortly). ION, when it is actually released, will be at 1.0. Express/ion was at 3.11 in it's latest release. Needless to say, the product was and is, I would imagine, significantly different (and better) than it was when it started out from a software point of view.

We have already seen a semi-official ETC response to this thread - Dustin is going to forward the concerns raised here on to those who have some real power to change them. (AND the gosh darn thing isn't even out yet!) 

It is going to be very interesting to see what these consoles grow and mature into.


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## icewolf08 (Aug 13, 2007)

As promised, I chatted with Karl today and this is what he said:

1) All information on the ION web page is correct.

2) The web page was not supposed to be publicly accessible yet.

3) Due to the fact that people like us found the page, ETC was inundated with calls over the past week asking about the ION and when they could make orders and what it could do and all that.

We didn't get into any of the technical concerns voiced here, so that is all i have for you.


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## gafftaper (Aug 13, 2007)

icewolf08 said:


> The web page was not supposed to be publicly accessible yet.



ETC must have some off duty T.S.A. employees running the website.


This of course still doesn't explain why they mailed out the print catalog with the full color glossy add for ION to thousands of customers. 

Sounds like "Brownie" is doing a "Heck of a Job" timing the release of secret information.


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## SteveB (Aug 13, 2007)

icewolf08 said:


> As promised, I chatted with Karl today and this is what he said:
> 1) All information on the ION web page is correct.
> 2) The web page was not supposed to be publicly accessible yet.
> 3) Due to the fact that people like us found the page, ETC was inundated with calls over the past week asking about the ION and when they could make orders and what it could do and all that.
> We didn't get into any of the technical concerns voiced here, so that is all i have for you.



Geez, and to think that I cross posted the website to LightNetwork and the Stagecraft list. 

One of two things can come from this. My work number will show up on ETC's caller ID and I'll be permanently at the back of the wait cue. Or,......I can't think of anything good actually.

I can imagine that after the console development folks got over their consternation about the site becoming public, that had to think that all the calls were a positive sign about future interest and sales. I HOPE that's what they thought. 

Interestingly enough, that while there was a lot of comments here on CB, there was almost none on Stagecraft list and not much more on LightNetwork. 

SB


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## Pie4Weebl (Aug 13, 2007)

SteveB said:


> Interestingly enough, that while there was a lot of comments here on CB, there was almost none on Stagecraft list and not much more on LightNetwork.
> SB


Yeah I was surprised by how little discussed it was over on LN.


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## jmabray (Aug 13, 2007)

I have found that those over there typically want to see something before they get into it - also they see themselves more as moving light guys - so a console from a historically theatrical control company won't interest them as much as a new product from flying pig or avo.

The factory is having webinars with dealers and reps at this point going over the details of the product, so they have to know that info is getting out there. To top that off, this was just about the worst kept secret in the lighting industry for the last year or so - so now that it is somewhat official, they had to know the calls were going to come.


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## CLEFFEL (Aug 22, 2007)

Wow, what a discussion, I regret that I'm coming in to it a bit late.

It's my understanding (from a dealer's perspective) that the EOS line (EOS and ION) was meant to be a completely seperate line of consoles from the Congo Line. With the EOS line being directed more towards the theatre market with single playbacks, etc. and the Congo line being directed more at the rock 'n roll fly-by-the-seat-of-your-pants market.

And to reiterate what Jeff said earlier, the Express is not going away. It is feature complete, and it still has its place in the market. If I'm not mistaken, the ION is meant to compliment the Express, and in a way replace the Expression. 

For those of you crying for a mid-line EOS-esque product, I've heard rumblings and rumors about an EOS Jr. to do just that...but don't hold me to that.

So there's my $.02.

-Chris

_The views and opinions expressed in this post are mine and mine alone. They are NOT the opinions of my employer or any of the companies we represent._


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## derekleffew (Aug 22, 2007)

Derek’s response to the new ETC Ion Lighting Control Console, baby-EOS or not? 08/21/2007

First, an attempt at humor. Definition. An "Ion" is what happens when you take all the functionality of an Express away from an Expression. The result is the Ion, pronounced “shun,” as in, “I shun ETC’s new console--I won’t use it.” But I called the first Obsession the “Excessive,” and the Obsession II “that Star Trek board.” I believe the Expression family has achieved status of “the best-selling console ever built.” Did I read that somewhere or am I hallucinating? Help me out here, farmerjo1111, [or Sarah?] The Ion is positioned to replace the Expression3 and soon, the Express. I believe there's a typo on the webpage under "Ion Software Features" where it says "Data import from...Express/ion...". Even ETC admits it’s the hind end of an Expression.

I disagree with most of you; except gafftaper, jezza, and Icewolf08, you’re all spot on. If you ONLY use dimmers, buy/rent an Express or Expression3, depending on amount of dimmers you need to control. If you currently use now, or ever anticipate using >10 moving lights, buy/rent a REAL Moving Light Console: something from the families of grandMA, HogIII, or MAXXIS. (or Vista, some seem to like that one : )

Moving Light Consoles can control dimmers really well, but the Reverse is definitely NOT true. You know what I mean. Dimmer Consoles don't/can’t control Moving Lights well.

My first memory console was the Strand-Century Light Palette v4J in 1979. In 1985, I ran some of the first moving lights in Chicago: Prestige 1000 controlling PanCans. I love and have been using ETC consoles since the original Vision and Expression I. But I would not recommend ANY of their consoles to run moving lights, even the EOS. I’ve done up to 24 movers on an Expression 3 and it took easily four times as long to program a 35-minute musical review as it would have on a Hog II.

The only gray area I see is small productions/theatres wanting to use <10 movers. An Express or Expression3 will work, but it will be tedious and time-consuming, depending on the design of course. Perhaps the Ion would fit the bill here. But it will still be tedious! At least it has palettes, but only one cuelist active at a time.

I just worked on a corporate show with 340 movers, >10 media servers, and 240 dimmers. Consoles used were two grandMA full-size(s) and one Express 250, because it had lots of submasters the LD could run. I would have probably spec’d an Insight3.

There’s a reason Broadway and Las Vegas shows used to use both an Obsession and a Hog II; and now use Obsession II (maybe EOS, Strand 550i) and GrandMA (maybe HogIII, Virtuoso); again, best tool(s) for the job.

Your mileage may vary. I miss the Kliegl Performer, the first mass-produced moving light console.


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## derekleffew (Aug 22, 2007)

SteveB said:


> I'm going to rant a bit.
> 
> I 'dunno, maybe it's just me, but I have to wonder where ETC is going with this, based on what I've read here, some of it from folks with obvious inside info. And I may well just need to await more - and correct information.
> I see a website with a product described with assorted features. I have no problems if they decide it's too early to release certain features, such as phone remote. But the description is prominent in listing "Providing fully integrated control of conventional and moving lights". It goes on to describe "4x1000 pallettes - intensity, focus, color, beam" as well as having 4 pageable encoders right on the desktop. If this little unit isn't a baby Eos, then when are we going to see one ?.
> ...


SteveB, if I were at Brooklyn college, I would specify the following:

A grandMA full-size for the Opera House, a grandMA light for the theatre, a grandMA ultra-light for the Black Box, a grandMA micro for the lobby, and a grandMA pico for my office. Plus a few grandMA onPCs. All on their own private network and saving to a centralized file server. Each venue has as many NSPs as needed, up to a total of 16. Any console can work any venue; in an emergency you can call many shops and have a replacement onsite within an hour.

Yes there’s a learning curve, but there will be with any new desk you buy. I’ll repeat my earlier post, “If you want to run moving lights, buy a Moving Light Console.”

I predict the Ion will be a success for ETC, and in five years we’ll be saying, “how did we ever run those awful Expression’s.”


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## derekleffew (Aug 22, 2007)

Yes, I’m replying to myself. This isn’t the first time I’ve does this. I find myself arguing with my other self often. Read my blog. Anyhow.

There’s an article in the August 2007 issue of _Lighting&Sound America_ by Rob Halliday titled _Things Every Console Should Have_ that appears pertinent to this thread. It’s not on the magazine’s website, but a free print subscription is offered to industry professionals.

I suggest reading it if you can. And offering suggestions to Mr. Halliday


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## gafftaper (Aug 22, 2007)

Derek I don't think I've ever seen a brand new member come in and begin life in the booth with three posts to the same thread in response to each other. That's got to be some kind of record. Welcome.


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## jmabray (Aug 22, 2007)

Derek -

Have you used an Eos on a production?


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## derekleffew (Aug 22, 2007)

Negative. Only spent quality time with it on the LDI show floor. Can you tell me where there are any permanent installs in Las Vegas? Do any of the LV Lighting shops have one available for rental?

response to other posts...
Thanks for the welcome. I just posted in the "new members" area. As I said, I've been lurking here and LightNetwork for years. But that's how I usually come barging into a booth--brash and opinionated. Disliked by most; feared by some; respected by a few. It's the latter with whom I eventually become good friends. A road ME recently nicknamed me Curt, as I kept snapping at him over the Walkie, but he kept interrupting me when I was in the catwalk trying to run a crew to do as he had directed. Everytime I picked up a SynchoLight ballast (heavy!), someone would call me on either the radio or the cellphone (job-related). I explained later in person-we're now friends.


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## jmabray (Aug 22, 2007)

> I disagree with most of you; except gafftaper, jezza, and Icewolf08, you’re all spot on. If you ONLY use Dimmers, buy/rent an Express or Expression3, depending on amount of dimmers you need to control. If you currently use now, or ever anticipate using >10 moving lights, buy/rent a REAL Moving Light Console: something from the families of grandMA, HogIII, or MAXXIS. (or Vista, some seem to like that one : )
> 
> Moving Light Consoles can control dimmers really well, but the Reverse is definitely NOT true. You know what I mean. Dimmer Consoles don't/can’t control Moving Lights well.



This is the statement that I have a problem with. We, as an industry, are getting to the point that this distinction between a moving light desk and a conventional control desk is going away. EOS does a very good job of controlling moving lights and conventional fixtures. Is it as hyper-configurable as a Grand MA - no, but I don't think that it needs to be. Congo also does a very good job of controlling both types of fixtures. (I only am speaking here for the ETC desks that I know, the new Strand desks may work just as well in this regard, I just don't know them) The way that the controls industry is going with the Generic fixture model that ETC (EOS, ION, Congo), Jands (Vista) and other subscribe to, is going to make that distinction irrelevant.


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## derekleffew (Aug 22, 2007)

Point well taken, but you didn't answer my question. 

Is there an EOS in Las Vegas? If yes, I would enjoy visiting with it and its keepers.


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## Grog12 (Aug 22, 2007)

derekleffew said:


> Point well taken, but you didn't answer my question.
> Is there an EOS in Las Vegas? If yes, I would enjoy visiting with it and its keepers.



Call PRG or 4wall...I think one of them has one in stock and they are typically happy to do demos.


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## icewolf08 (Aug 22, 2007)

or pop up here to Salt Lake, they have 5 over at the LDS conference center. We had a demo of a pre-production model last year, it seems like a nice console.


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## Charc (Aug 22, 2007)

icewolf08 said:


> or pop up here to Salt Lake, they have 5 over at the LDS conference center. We had a demo of a pre-production model last year, it seems like a nice console.



Oh good god let's not get starting on the LDS conference center again! 

*fans the flames*


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## Charc (Aug 22, 2007)

jmabray said:


> This is the statement that I have a problem with. We, as an industry, are getting to the point that this distinction between a moving light desk and a conventional control desk is going away. EOS does a very good job of controlling moving lights and conventional fixtures. Is it as hyper-configurable as a Grand MA - no, but I don't think that it needs to be. Congo also does a very good job of controlling both types of fixtures. (I only am speaking here for the ETC desks that I know, the new Strand desks may work just as well in this regard, I just don't know them) The way that the controls industry is going with the Generic fixture model that ETC (EOS, ION, Congo), Jands (Vista) and other subscribe to, is going to make that distinction irrelevant.



Yes, I'm looking forward to Gaff writing up on his new Palette / Light Palette (I can't remember which he got).


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## jmabray (Aug 22, 2007)

Mee too.

I don't know if there is a console in Vegas or not. I live in/work in the Dallas area and am only privy to what goes on around these here parts.

I will try to make a phone call tomorrow and see what I can find out - if I have the time. To be truthful, work has me so swamped right now, I don't know if I will, but I will try.

Jeff


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## STEVETERRY (Aug 22, 2007)

derekleffew said:


> Point well taken, but you didn't answer my question.
> Is there an EOS in Las Vegas? If yes, I would enjoy visiting with it and its keepers.



Want to see it instead of bashing it from the somewhat shaky position of not having seen it in detail?

If you call Randy Pybas at the ETC West office in LA, I bet you will have one in front of you in a heartbeat!

Nice to hear from you again, Derek.

Cheers


Steve Terry


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## derekleffew (Aug 22, 2007)

Mr. Terry, et al.:

I wasn't trying to bash the EOS, or the Ion for that matter. I don't think that saying I prefer the grandMA in almost every application is bashing. However, Jmabray and others here have convinced me that at least part of my thinking is out-dated. There's really no such thing as a "dimmer only" console anymore and I'm sure that's for the best. Also I realize the phrase "_Real_ Moving Light Console, such as..." can be taken as derogatory to those not on my list. I'm just speaking from my own, myopic experiences. Shows I work use Expresses and Expressions and Obsessions and Strand 5xxs to control dimmers; and Hogs, what's the plural of Maxxis? Maxxii?, and grandMAs to run movers and media servers. Unless the "dimmer only" console is eliminated, and it's tasks are folded into one of the latter category.


But if you WANT to hear me bash a console, guess what, it's one of yours. The original MicroVision, 1990?, with the round silver buttons that WEREN'T LABELLED!--the silk screening was either above or below, and who can remember?, and I ended up putting tiny bits of white gaffer's on every single button and writing with a sharp Sharpie. Then I used black gaff to cover the labels that were there BETWEEN the buttons...and it was a brand new console that Chicago Spotlight had purchased just to rent to that production.


I look forward to talking with Mr. Pybas and getting a more in-depth look at the console that I spent a half-hour with last November at LDI.

I am now un-subscribing from this thread. I think I've done all the damage I can. Steve, please respond to my post in the "Brand Familiarity" thread regarding _A Chorus Line_ and the Scrimmer dimmers. I want to make sure I have the story accurate.

Peace.


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## Radman (Aug 23, 2007)

Maxxyz -> Maxxyzs? Maxxyzes? Maxxyz?


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## gafftaper (Aug 23, 2007)

charcoaldabs said:


> Yes, I'm looking forward to Gaff writing up on his new Palette / Light Palette (I can't remember which he got).



It's going to be a "classic palette" which is the model with 32 subs and a keypad. The system gets installed in about a month but I won't have any instruments until November probably. So it's going to be a while until I get a full review. I'm pretty excited about it. I've used Horizon and really liked the software. I thought seriously about going after a Marquee but was scared off by the small company. When the buy out happened, I was happy to get the horizon/marquee technology with a big name behind it. I've played around with the palette and like what I've seen so far. 

I tried to delay the decision on the console as long as possible and get a final say in the brand purchased but I wasn't able to pull that off. Not sucking up to the present company... but I would rather have ETC dimmers and console if nothing more than for the customer service. However, at the time the decision was made the options were Palette vs Express. If I had the final say now I would probably have a Congo. I actually looked into changing to a Congo Jr. and determined that with contractor markups and change order fees I would probably end up paying around $25k for that Jr. So I decided to hold off and push for the purchase of a second console later... what a great educational opportunity to have both a Strand and ETC console in the theater. 

I'm interested to get my paws on an ION and get a real feel for how it fits into the bigger picture. What I saw of EOS at LDI was very impressive but overkill for my needs. So I'm really curious in what ways ION is similar and what way's it's different. Which functions it looses and which functions it keeps. Sadly I'm not going to LDI this year so I'll have to wait for ION to visit the local theater shop.


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## Charc (Aug 23, 2007)

gafftaper said:


> It's going to be a "classic palette" which is the model with 32 subs and a keypad. The system gets installed in about a month but I won't have any instruments until November probably. So it's going to be a while until I get a full review. I'm pretty excited about it. I've used Horizon and really liked the software. I thought seriously about going after a Marquee but was scared off by the small company. When the buy out happened, I was happy to get the horizon/marquee technology with a big name behind it. I've played around with the palette and like what I've seen so far.
> I tried to delay the decision on the console as long as possible and get a final say in the brand purchased but I wasn't able to pull that off. Not sucking up to the present company... but I would rather have ETC dimmers and console if nothing more than for the customer service. However, at the time the decision was made the options were Palette vs Express. If I had the final say now I would probably have a Congo. I actually looked into changing to a Congo Jr. and determined that with contractor markups and change order fees I would probably end up paying around $25k for that Jr. So I decided to hold off and push for the purchase of a second console later... what a great educational opportunity to have both a Strand and ETC console in the theater.
> I'm interested to get my paws on an ION and get a real feel for how it fits into the bigger picture. What I saw of EOS at LDI was very impressive but overkill for my needs. So I'm really curious in what ways ION is similar and what way's it's different. Which functions it looses and which functions it keeps. Sadly I'm not going to LDI this year so I'll have to wait for ION to visit the local theater shop.



The choice was between palette and express? I've yet to use an ETC console, but my understanding is the Expression has some dials or something going on to help you make use of your DMX toys, Gaff. I mean, you're gonna have a pretty good set of intelligent gear, if I remember correctly from your gear list. Does the expression really not have that much more to offer?


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## jmabray (Aug 23, 2007)

> The choice was between palette and express? I've yet to use an ETC console, but my understanding is the Expression has some dials or something going on to help you make use of your DMX toys, Gaff. I mean, you're gonna have a pretty good set of intelligent gear, if I remember correctly from your gear list. Does the expression really not have that much more to offer?



Not really. And there is a vast chasam of difference between an Express and an Expression. They do use the same software, but the hardware interface makes a signifiacnt difference in programming moving lights or DMX toys. (those dials are called Encoders, and they are called Encoders on all of the control desks that have them....)


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## Charc (Aug 23, 2007)

jmabray said:


> Not really. And there is a vast chasam of difference between an Express and an Expression. They do use the same software, but the hardware interface makes a signifiacnt difference in programming moving lights or DMX toys. (those dials are called Encoders, and they are called Encoders on all of the control desks that have them....)



Yea, that's what I thought. I'm curious to see how the strand classic palette works out, (having been "raised" on a strand (that's coming from a 16 year old  ) ), but it seems like the expression might have been a good choice. (Not to criticize your decision after you've made it, Gaff!)


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## jmabray (Aug 23, 2007)

Maybe I am not making myself clear here,

Given the choice between a Pallete and an Express, I would have chosen the Palette as well. 

The Express is a great board for doing strictly conventional fixtures. Easy to learn, easy to program (even advanced concepts) and the best technology that 1993? had to offer. But that's just it. It is an older desk. It is on the way out for the things that Gaff wants to make it do. There are much better options out there now for those things. He had a choice to make at a specific point in time and his options were the Pallette and the Express(not the expression) - I think he made the right one - and my employer would probably not like me saying that.....


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## gafftaper (Aug 23, 2007)

Yeah Jmabray's nailed it Charc, it's completely different technology. There's nothing "wrong" with an Express(ion), they were the best of their time, it's just pushing 15 year old technology. 

Simple case in point. If you want to run an I-cue on an Express you have to patch it into an existing dimmer channel. If your older theater has 48 dimmers... you now have 46 because it takes two dimmers to run an I-cue. There's nothing wrong with that... but you can see how a little bit of intelligent gear starts eating dimmer at a rapid rate even in a theater with a lot of dimmers. The Palette... and all the new consoles have fixed this. It now takes one channel to control all the attributes of a single instrument. You can take a Source4 and load it with a Seachanger, gobo rotator, infinity animator, and hang it on a Right Arm... the Palette (and the new ETC consoles) look at that as ONE lighting instrument with a lot of dmx attributes. It eats one dimmer... and a lot of dmx channels that we'll assign from a second universe. You want to run a dozen intelligent instruments that all consume 30 dmx channels? No problem. On an Express? VERY hard to do probably impossible depending on how many dimmers you have. 

So If I had the choice right now... full size Congo... back then then it was Palette... give us a few months to actually see ION... might go that way. EOS? Cool but half of it's features are way over my budget needs. Unfortunately, you've got to make the decision at a specific moment in time and my decision was made over a year ago.  And as I've been saying down the road who knows how it all sorts out. No offense to our ETC friends but you can't stay king of the market forever... eventually someone else will come along and challenge them. It's HUGE gamble rolling out a new product line. What if Strand's line is just better? We'll know in a couple years what the industry embraces.


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## jmabray (Aug 23, 2007)

gafftaper said:


> Unfortunately, you've got to make the decision at a specific moment in time and my decision was made over a year ago.




But this is where great specification writing comes in. If you wrote the specifications, it's really really easy to say something to the effect of, "Console will have all the features above, and will be the latest console release by dimmer manufacturer at time of installation."

You can then choose what specific console you get when it comes time to install your system. It's a trick that all of the "big" Consultants like to play on the manufacturer's when the do their systems. The manufacturer's know this and they price their bid accordingly.

Not that this helps you right now, but all those of you who are out there that may be working on a new space.....


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## SteveB (Aug 23, 2007)

jmabray said:


> But this is where great specification writing comes in. If you wrote the specifications, it's really really easy to say something to the effect of, "Console will have all the features above, and will be the latest console release by dimmer manufacturer at time of installation."
> QUOTE]
> 
> You wouldn't catch me writing a spec. like that. You could very, very easily end up with a one-off from some no-name or bottom feeding company.
> ...


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## jmabray (Aug 23, 2007)

SteveB said:


> jmabray said:
> 
> 
> > But this is where great specification writing comes in. If you wrote the specifications, it's really really easy to say something to the effect of, "Console will have all the features above, and will be the latest console release by dimmer manufacturer at time of installation."
> ...



That of course is not the only statement in the spec, obviously. There would have to be other statements that would exclude this from happening. A manufacturer like this can very easily be excluded. "Manufacturer must demonstrate 10 years experience in manufacturing preset systems of this type. Manufacturer must have 24/7/365 support available via pager. Manufacturer must have factory authorized service center within 25 miles of the jobsite. Authorized service center must have a console in rental stock to be a backup for site."

There are several different qualifying statements that you can use.

I can't speak of NY state law, but the law that I am familiar with, says that you only have to say "or approved equal" if you specifically name one manufacturer or product. If you just call out for performance requirements for the materials, then you don't have to say or approved equal. It just has to meet all the requirements. Your mileage may vary....

Jeff


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## Footer (Aug 23, 2007)

gafftaper said:


> Yeah Jmabray's nailed it Charc, it's completely different technology. There's nothing "wrong" with an Express(ion), they were the best of their time, it's just pushing 15 year old technology.
> Simple case in point. If you want to run an I-cue on an Express you have to patch it into an existing dimmer channel. If your older theater has 48 dimmers... you now have 46 because it takes two dimmers to run an I-cue. There's nothing wrong with that... but you can see how a little bit of intelligent gear starts eating dimmer at a rapid rate even in a theater with a lot of dimmers. The Palette... and all the new consoles have fixed this. It now takes one channel to control all the attributes of a single instrument. You can take a Source4 and load it with a Seachanger, gobo rotator, infinity animator, and hang it on a Right Arm... the Palette (and the new ETC consoles) look at that as ONE lighting instrument with a lot of dmx attributes. It eats one dimmer... and a lot of dmx channels that we'll assign from a second universe. You want to run a dozen intelligent instruments that all consume 30 dmx channels? No problem. On an Express? VERY hard to do probably impossible depending on how many dimmers you have.



Well... you can write a personality for an icue with and express that works fairly well, I do it with elipscans all the time. I will not run more then a mirror on an express however, it simply gets to cumbersome. Also, the lowest "dimmer" number on an express is 96, and thats on the 24/48. The 72/144 can control 240 attributes/channels/dimmers/whatnot. All express consoles have two universes, so if double patch, you can control a lot of gear. 

I will be interested to hear how the mallet software works out. I had a demo pallete a little over a year ago with the original software written for it. I hope this software still ships with it so you can select between the two.


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## jmabray (Aug 23, 2007)

> I had a demo pallete a little over a year ago with the original software written for it. I hope this software still ships with it so you can select between the two.



Not gonna happen. At least as I understand it. When The Genlyte Group bought the assets of Strand US, they disolved Strand UK and the people that wrote the code for the lightpallette all the way up through the 300 and 500 series desks were let go. (This is what formed the basis for the original code that you are talking about.) With these people no longer working for the current iteration of Strand, they had wonderful new hardware, but no way to support the software that they had written for it. Thus the decision to make what many people have playfully called the "Mallette" (Marquee software running on Pallette hardware.)

I personally wouldn't want the orginal software - there is no one to support it.

I will be honest here, when I first looked at the Marquee, there were too many stability issues for it to be any kind of real desk. (a very simple keystroke sequence would crash the desk everytime, for instance) The last time I looked at it, those had mostly been resolved and was a decent desk. It was different than what I was used to, but it definitely was not the failure that it was going to be had they not gotten the stability issues resolved.

Again, another thing my employer probably wouldn't want me to be saying, but as much as I drink (and dole out as well) the ETC kool-aid, I am a lighting geek first and foremost and try to learn as much about every desk there is out there. I also try to be as honest and fair as I can about the competition.


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## Charc (Aug 23, 2007)

Well speaking of old technology, isn't the Strand 300 series pushing 10, if not 15 years? Don't they have an attributes system, that doesn't eat dimmers? Channel 10 = Intensity, 10.1=Intensity (.1 can be omitted), 10.2 Scroller Frame, 10.3 Pan, 10.4 Tilt (Where do fine and course adjustments come in though? As the I-Cue can actually be operated by as many as 4 DMX channels.)

I'm just saying for the last gen in boards, it was possible. (Or is Strand's Product cycle a little off from ETC's?)


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## jmabray (Aug 23, 2007)

They didn't eat up channels per say, but they did eat up attributes. They were two different counts on the desk. As I recall, one could eat the other (Attributes could eat Channels, if needed) but it wouldn't work the other way around. So if you had a total of 25 channels and 25 attributes, and you had 5 moving lights with 5 attributes each, you could still have 20 conventional channels. But if you had 30 conventional fixtures, they still had to be patched into the 25 conventional channels. Does that make sense?

You are right, it was possible - however, at the time, Strand wasn't offering the 300 series console any more - there were just releasing the pallette line and wanted to sell that....

It was a different way of thinking about channels than had been done before. Some people must have thought it was a good idea, because most of the new lines of desks work this way....


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## Charc (Aug 23, 2007)

jmabray said:


> They didn't eat up channels per say, but they did eat up attributes. They were two different counts on the desk. As I recall, one could eat the other (Attributes could eat Channels, if needed) but it wouldn't work the other way around. So if you had a total of 25 channels and 25 attributes, and you had 5 moving lights with 5 attributes each, you could still have 20 conventional channels. But if you had 30 conventional fixtures, they still had to be patched into the 25 conventional channels. Does that make sense?
> You are right, it was possible - however, at the time, Strand wasn't offering the 300 series console any more - there were just releasing the pallette line and wanted to sell that....
> It was a different way of thinking about channels than had been done before. Some people must have thought it was a good idea, because most of the new lines of desks work this way....



I meant historically, I think. I think I was asking about when the last product cycles meshed. As in, if Strand 300/500 series were released around the same time, why didn't express(ion) have the same features? Or was strand300/500 released a few years after express(ion)?

(Just had an epiphany, I think. Someone previously posted, the ion is what happens when you take the functionality of the express out of the expression. Is this name a reference to that? Or was it a negative comment? Because: Expression - Express = Ion. And I just got that, wow I'm slow.)


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## jmabray (Aug 23, 2007)

Naw, the joke around ETC is that they ran out of name that ended in ION (Expression, Obsession, etc) so they just named it ION.....

The express(ion) line came out before the 500 series as I remember it....


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## Charc (Aug 23, 2007)

jmabray said:


> Naw, the joke around ETC is that they ran out of name that ended in ION (Expression, Obsession, etc) so they just named it ION.....
> The express(ion) line came out before the 500 series as I remember it....



"Crazy Post" Removed, scrollbars everywhere rejoice.


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## derekleffew (Aug 24, 2007)

charcoaldabs wrote:
"(Just had an epiphany, I think. Someone previously posted, the ion is what happens when you take the functionality of the express out of the expression. Is this name a reference to that? Or was it a negative comment? Because: Expression - Express = Ion. And I just got that, wow I'm slow.)"

Please forget you ever read that. It was meant to be humorous, and not in any way an attack on ETC. Likewise, "Ion" shall never again be pronounced by myself as "shun." In fact, I've predicted the Ion will do very well for many different applications. Once PRG and/or 4Wall have it, I may very well be the first renter--as long as they'll give me an Expression3 and an A/B box also.


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## icewolf08 (Aug 24, 2007)

Charc, your speaking privileges should be revoked for that crazy post.


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## Grog12 (Aug 24, 2007)

icewolf08 said:


> Charc, your speaking privileges should be revoked for that crazy post.



I 2nd and move for a vote!


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## Charc (Aug 24, 2007)

Grog12 said:


> I 2nd and move for a vote!



I see no crazy post. What are you guys talking about?

I make a motion that Alex and Grog12 take their meds! 

(Just a joke there guys.)


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