# How do I connect my house lights to my DMX?



## jake1

Hey guys, 
We just finished remodeling our church sanctuary including new house lights. We have over 30 dimmable compact flourecent bulbs that are separated onto 3 switches: Left, Center, Right. The three dimmer switches are in the control booth and look like this:





We are having some issues when dimming sometimes some of them will flicker. We really want to be able to control the house lights by DMX. What low budget idas come to mind?


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## Lotos

jake1 said:


> We are having some issues when dimming sometimes some of them will flicker. We really want to be able to control the house lights by DMX. What low budget idas come to mind?


 
I'm guessing that's cheap "dimmable CFL" at work there... I'd be willing to bet that if you swapped them for Incandescent or more expensive dimmable CFL's, they'd be fine.

As for the system itself... Even the switch alone looks eerily familiar... Would I be right in the assumption that you must hold the switch in a downwardly direction for a good few seconds to turn it off, and the reverse to turn it on?


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## jake1

Lotos said:


> I'm guessing that's cheap "dimmable CFL" at work there... I'd be willing to bet that if you swapped them for Incandescent or more expensive dimmable CFL's, they'd be fine.


 I was told from the person that purchased the bulbs they were rated to be one of the best dimmable CFL available but I don't know how much they cost.


Lotos said:


> As for the system itself... Even the switch alone looks eerily familiar... Would I be right in the assumption that you must hold the switch in a downwardly direction for a good few seconds to turn it off, and the reverse to turn it on?


no sir. The image is not exact to what I have, just a visual for you all to get an idea. There is a power button below the slider on each. And they are very responsive.

Again, I'm asking how can I get these to control via DMX?


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## Footer

Those are just simple household dimmers. In order to control the house lights via DMX, those need to be replaced by some type of dimmer. They don't make a DMX dimmer that you can just swap out, you will need to have a licensed electrician install a small dimmer rack. As long as cheap is over a grand or two, you are pretty much sunk. If this is a new facility, this should have been factored into the design. Its not an easy fix.


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## DuckJordan

You will need a dimmer pack according to how many amps per set. With.something like this you could use a cheap portable dimmer pack and instead of those switches you would have an electrician wire Edison plugs in the space. That's the easiest and cheapest I could think of.

Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk


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## jake1

I should have been more clear. I realize these are household cheap dimmers and a different product needs to be installed, and done by a licensed electrician.

Now my question is this: can you point me to some specific dimmer racks, or products that might work for us?

Please?


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## jake1

DuckJordan said:


> You will need a dimmer pack according to how many amps per set. With.something like this you could use a cheap portable dimmer pack and instead of those switches you would have an electrician wire Edison plugs in the space. That's the easiest and cheapest I could think of.
> 
> Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk


 Thank you sir! This sounds good I will look into it.


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## Les

Since it's houselights we're talking about, I would *not* go with a cheap dimmer pack of any kind. Houselights need to provide faithful and reliable service for many years. You won't get that with a cheap dimmer pack. Terminating the houselights to Edison pigtails may or may not be code compliant as well. 

At the very least, I'd hardwire them in to an ETC Smartpack rackmount dimmer and some type of architectural system. 

Note that this will _not_ solve the flicker issue. 

I know that the above posts seemed to be beating around the bush a little, but I assure you they were not. Around here, we like to qualify questions which allows us to make sure we know exactly what you're dealing with before spouting off product suggestions.


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## DuckJordan

A further question before you look too deep into it...

Are these the only lights for the space?

Do you need control from some other type of interface other than your console?

Are you comfortable seeking licensed electrician help on this subject?

The reason I ask is if they are the only lights that light the space my idea should be thrown out the window. Because you would need to have some sort of fail safe backup in case of emergency.


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## Footer

jake1 said:


> Thank you sir! This sounds good I will look into it.


 
Not totally. Its not as easy as just put a 60 dollar DJ dimmer instead of the wall outlet. NEC has many rules about what needs to happen when a "transfer panel" is put in. Also, you will have issues with actually fitting the load on a 600w dimmer. Odds are your load is closer to 10amps. 

Two options: Strand A21: A21 Dimming System | Strand Lighting - A Philips Group Brand

Or the industry standard ETC Unison: Lighting solutions for Theatre, Film & Television Studios and Architectural spaces : ETC


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## DuckJordan

Footer said:


> Not totally. Its not as easy as just put a 60 dollar DJ dimmer instead of the wall outlet. NEC has many rules about what needs to happen when a "transfer panel" is put in. Also, you will have issues with actually fitting the load on a 600w dimmer. Odds are your load is closer to 10amps.
> 
> Two options: Strand A21: A21 Dimming System | Strand Lighting - A Philips Group Brand
> 
> Or the industry standard ETC Unison: Lighting solutions for Theatre, Film & Television Studios and Architectural spaces : ETC


 
I have to disagree, what he is describing sound to be about a 600w dimmer. We have used these on S4's in a local space because they don't have the budget for a dimmer setup (or at least to do it right) and used these wall plate systems. seeing as the S4 is 575w we put in 600w dimmers. But again have a Licensed Electrician check. Nothings worse than to buy that $60 piece of equipment to find out it wont work.


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## Les

One thing to consider is that the wall dimmer is most likely UL listed, as the $60 DJ pack is not.


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## Footer

DuckJordan said:


> I have to disagree, what he is describing sound to be about a 600w dimmer. We have used these on S4's in a local space because they don't have the budget for a dimmer setup (or at least to do it right) and used these wall plate systems. seeing as the S4 is 575w we put in 600w dimmers. But again have a Licensed Electrician check. Nothings worse than to buy that $60 piece of equipment to find out it wont work.


 
And install a breaker panel for the circuit that comes after plug in the wall. That right there is going to run you several hundred. Its not as simple as just putting a plug on the end. Plus, florescent dimmers deal with power differently. Depending on the types of lamps you run the risk of blowing the ballasts on all of the lights.


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## jglodeklights

What about looking at a couple of Doug Fleenor products? 

Their 8 channel dimmer combined with their preset box, properly located may be a nice complement to your existing system. Typically 8 channels of dimmable house light is overkill, but the packaging seems to fit what you may be trying to do. The preset box can be located somewhere convenient, whether in the control booth or somewhere nearer to an entrance. The preset box is also nice if you wish to hand control over to someone who can only handle pushing a labeled button to bring up what they need. Think service, rehearsal, House Only buttons. As soon as the lighting console is turned on/begins sending dmx signal the preset box stops sending its own signal. The components for this solution should cost approximately $1300-$1500. Installation and materials I can not speak to. I don't have experience with the Fleenor dimmer, and it may not have as smooth of a curve, but we use a similar solution comprised of two single channel architectural DMX dimmers and the preset box at my theater in Philadelphia. Without space or money to install a Unison or A21 or other similar system, it was the best choice for us and works well. 

The only issue is that once a year, maybe less often, the preset box resets the timing of its snapshots to 999 seconds. Somewhat inconvenient when it happens, but again, doesn't happen often.

Keep in mind, though, sometimes the simplest solution is best. DMX control is nice and fun and can sometimes give the board op one less thing to do during a run, but isn't a necessity for houselights taking up three channels.


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## derekleffew

No solutions, but interesting reading, from the Elation Forums: Need a ceiling light dimmer, with DMX control option - Topic .


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## mrb

when specifying dimmers for CFL remember they have TERRIBLE power factor. I put a meter capable of capturing such things and a 13W CFL had a peak current draw of ~1.1 amps. 

The way to do this would be to install a small dimmer such as a Leviton / NSI N2404-CD0 (if budget does not permit ETC) next to the breaker panel supplying the lighting you wish to control. Move the lighting circuits (including their neutrals) from the breaker panel over to the dimmer. Then the booth wall dimmers would be removed, the appropriate wires connected together and blank coverplates installed.


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## Dionysus

CFLs are evil, that is the long and the short of it. Between Power Factor and flickering, how much of a pain they are to dim, mercury content, etc. they are just evil.
I love incandescents, and there are a lot of good LED solutions now too. The Grand Theatre (London, Ontario) has converted mainly to LEDs (save for stage lighting of course), there were a few problems along the way with the choices but they were mainly solved by adding fluorescent work light in the McManus Studio. They are of course using the Strand A21 Dimming System which works great.

There are several things you can do to change over to DMX or to add DMX functionality to your house-light system. Some of the easiest and best solutions would to be to use something turnkey like the Strand A21 (or the other aforementioned systems, like solutions from ETC, etc.) but these are NOT cheap.

A major consideration, do these house lights need to be controlled elsewhere (other than the lighting desk)?

A cheap-o solution I used for one community theatre I help with was to install a relay to switch between two completely different circuits for the control of the house lights, to either have standard "switch" control, or DMX control. Not at the same time. A LICENSED ELECTRICIAN would be required to do that, and I'd check with local codes, etc.. (The Identified's must be switched along with the switch wires).
I would generally not recommend a system like this, but it does inherently lock-out the controls in the house during show. Again the dimmers is question may not like CFLs (but incandescent or many LED solutions would be happy with the dimmer).

A rack-mount dimmer hooked up instead, run only from the lighting boards DMX would be easier, and happier. Again, CFLs not so happy depending on said dimmer.
The aforementioned solution from Doug Fleenor Design would work too.

The other thing is, as long as the house controls are easily accessible by the lighting operator or SM to control for the run, just use what you have!

3-way/4-way switches can be used with 3-way dimmers to allow on-off functionality from more than one location. I've rigged up a 3-way slide dimmer (like you have) in a box with some cable so that it can be moved on the desk surface or hung on the wall that the lighting operator just puts beside the LX console and can use to control the house-lights-- as getting up and controlling something on the wall is kinda not that smart. BINGO BANGO DONE. This is one of the easiest and cheap ways to go about it (again Licensed Electrician!).


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## Esoteric

Footer said:


> Those are just simple household dimmers. In order to control the house lights via DMX, those need to be replaced by some type of dimmer. They don't make a DMX dimmer that you can just swap out, you will need to have a licensed electrician install a small dimmer rack. As long as cheap is over a grand or two, you are pretty much sunk. If this is a new facility, this should have been factored into the design. Its not an easy fix.


This. I do renovations like this all the time. The smallest generally cost $5000-$10000 (think two dozen lights with home runs in convenient locations and the lights grouped the way you want them already) with some costing $50000+ (for complete rewires).


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## Esoteric

Les said:


> Since it's houselights we're talking about, I would *not* go with a cheap dimmer pack of any kind. Houselights need to provide faithful and reliable service for many years. You won't get that with a cheap dimmer pack. Terminating the houselights to Edison pigtails may or may not be code compliant as well.
> 
> At the very least, I'd hardwire them in to an ETC Smartpack rackmount dimmer and some type of architectural system.
> 
> Note that this will _not_ solve the flicker issue.
> 
> I know that the above posts seemed to be beating around the bush a little, but I assure you they were not. Around here, we like to qualify questions which allows us to make sure we know exactly what you're dealing with before spouting off product suggestions.


 
And keep in mind, while a lot of architectural systems claim to work with DMX, the 75% that actually do need very costly modules to do so. Stick with an ETC Smartpack.


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## NHSTechCrew

Depending on the load you could use one of these

Have the outlets replaced with plugs and regular 110 volt outlets and use a simple Edison dimmer pack ranging from $200 - $1000

I have not tried this but depending on the amount of lights it could work.


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## SteveB

Some thoughts and questions:

1) Is there a stand-alone emergency lighting system that is code compliant to provide egress lighting in the event the "performance" lighting system loses power and/or control ?. Is this new CFL on-wall dimmer system part of that emergency system ?. This is (and should be) the very first consideration when doing any kind of change and/or upgrade. 

2) Is there any kind of existing dimming system for the performance type events/church services ?, and are there any spare dimmers in that system ?, and/or spare slots ?. Attending that set of questions, what's the DMX controller you want to use ?. If there is an existing dimming and control system, AND there's a stand-alone emergency system, then you can have an electrician re-route the wiring from the wall mounted dimmers to the "performance" dimmers, which can then, usually, be controlled via DMX. 

As comment, the wall mounted dimmers, as shown in the photo, do not (AFAIK) allow any interface with DMX control systems, and you need to essentially replace these dimmers with UL listed dimming devices that allow DMX control, such as the Fleenor DMX8, or other similar DMX controlled dimmer pack system. Part of this requires a re-wiring of the CFL circuits to this new dimmer pack, as well as the new dimmers being able to dim CFL loads. Then you need to have DMX control wiring installed from the control interface to the new dimming system. 

You might try calling Steve Short at Litetrol Service - 800 548 3876 Ask Steve if he's aware of any kind of in-the-wall type CFL dimmer that allwos external control via DMX. He might know of such a device.


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## lightingguy1

Hi Steve,

I know our PAC has an inverter system that is activated when all three racks go into panic mode, and/or when power is lost.....

Havn't researched it very much, but I know it has saved a few panic'd grannies from doing a head first dive from the balcony.

-Lighitngguy121


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## chausman

lightingguy1 said:


> I know our PAC has an inverter system that is activated when all three racks go into panic mode, and/or when power is lost.....


 
What do you mean, "inverter system that is activated when all three racks go into panic mode, *and/or* when power is lost....."


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## jglodeklights

Inverter (electricial) - a device to convert DC power into AC power. 

Most (all?) locales require installation and upkeep of some form of emergency lighting system, which usually consists of emergency lights located at entrances/exits and in various other locations depending on the size of the space. Sometimes, especially in buildings such as hospitals, this will be paired with external generators.

Is this what you are referring to? Each emergency light box typically has its own battery and is triggered by voltage being dropped from the line they are connected on for monitoring purposes. Problems can arise with this if, as happened at my theater last night, only one or two of the three phases drops, leaving scattered areas of power and no power even within the same room. 

Or did someone think it a good idea to install a huge battery somewhere in the space that could power all the house lights for....a hot second.


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## SteveB

lightingguy1 said:


> Hi Steve,
> 
> I know our PAC has an inverter system that is activated when all three racks go into panic mode, and/or when power is lost.....
> 
> Havn't researched it very much, but I know it has saved a few panic'd grannies from doing a head first dive from the balcony.
> 
> -Lighitngguy121



Emergency lighting for places of public assembly (and other spaces) usually takes three forms. 

1) Stand-alone lighting fixtures that have internal batteries, are powered normally off regular building power and have built in sensors that determine when building power is lost and then energize the fixture off the internal batteries. Or:

2) Same fixtures (or similar stand-alone fixtures) without batteries wired back to a generator system and associated sensors that determine loss of building power and energize fixtures. Or:

3) Existing fixtures that do double duty as dimmable fixtures for performance/service and who's dimmer/relay system can have it's mains power feed transferred to a generator when building power is lost, or whose individual and specific load circuits can be transferred to generator power via a branch circuit transfer panel. 

If you have in place an emergency lighting system that is separate from the CFL circuits that you wish to control via DMX, then your conversion just got a lot easier.


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