# Hoist Motor Power



## DaMenaCe (Nov 2, 2020)

Hello All,

Doing some research on power distro for chain hoist and controller. I have some understanding of 3 phase power but i am slightly confused. 

The Venu has a service line with 5 cam-locks ( Black, Red, Blue, White, Green.) Does anyone know what is the voltage between the two lines? 

Is it 240 or would it be something else? Also, I am curious about what would or should the voltage be from the ground to the hot leg. 

Please correct me if i am wrong but, here's what I am thinking. The 5 wire supply line is in a delta configuration, split-phase with the white/neutral ( please see the attached image) so, 110 or 208 single-phase can be made available when needed. The twist-lock connection for 3 phase power on the distro would ignore the natural and use the 3 hot legs and ground.


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## Lextech (Nov 2, 2020)

No Delta, 208v across any two hots and 120v between any hot to neutral.


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## DaMenaCe (Nov 2, 2020)

Thanks, Lex.

what happens when 240v 3 phase is needed?


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## FMEng (Nov 2, 2020)

240 V Delta is rarely used. More likely, you have 208 V Wye connected. Most 3 phase motors will work on either voltage, though they will only make rated horsepower at or above the minimum voltage.


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## DaMenaCe (Nov 2, 2020)

Hmm, that's Interesting. 

I have a motor controller that reads Power In: 380 /220 v 3 phase. 

I was considering getting this distro linked below. It doesn't have cam lock connection points but that's something I can work out. 

I wanted to confirm if that 5 wire cam-lock tie in at the venue would provide 240v. 

i understand the motors will work at 208v 3 phase but, just concerned if it would cause any damage. 

Power Distro From Ebay


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## chawalang (Nov 2, 2020)

The way I was taught abut the whole 120+120=208?!?! was that while 120x2=240 you should take 120x 1.73 which is the square root of 3. So 120x1.73= 207.6 so basically 208. I was taught that is because that is where the sine waves cross in three phase power. Though I didn't have much elaboration on that at the time 18 years ago. If anyone can clarify this further please feel free to.


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## DaMenaCe (Nov 2, 2020)

Hey Chawlang, i understand it pretty well how and why the 208V comes about. i was just trying to figure what is the typical/common setup. if it is set up to have 208V per leg, i can see how. 

I am just concern about running the equipment far below the rated voltage range. The load applied on the motor for this particular application will be very little so technically i don't need the motors producing "full power" but, I the ide of operating the motor out of the recommended voltage range bothers me.


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## MNicolai (Nov 2, 2020)

DaMenaCe said:


> I am just concern about running the equipment far below the rated voltage range. The load applied on the motor for this particular application will be very little so technically i don't need the motors producing "full power" but, I the ide of operating the motor out of the recommended voltage range bothers me.



What type of hoist do you have? Make & model?

CM Lodestars are one of the most common. From the snippet below of the manual, they single-speed units are nominally rated at 230V but are intended to operate anywhere between 208V and 240V.




Your specific hoists may vary.


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## avkid (Nov 2, 2020)

DaMenaCe said:


> Power Distro From Ebay


The reason it says 240 is that the components came from Europe.
The rating does not affect output as it has no transformer, you get out what you put in.
If you are supplying it with 208 3ph 60hZ and using domestically sourced 208 3ph hoists, carry on.

Did you also get a controller with it?


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## DaMenaCe (Nov 3, 2020)

Hey Philip... I see you are from Jersey. Happy to see that. From little that i know about 3 phase power distro, I assumed the power distro does not have any transformer so what you put in is what you will get out. Thank you for sharing that info.

Mike, as i made the post on here, i was digging through the cutsheet for that info. I confirmed, you are right the motor and the controller will be fine/with-in the operating rage at 208V. Thank you for that.


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## Lextech (Nov 3, 2020)

If you need control you should know about one of the oldest makers of motor control, https://www.motionlabs.com/. They make quality equipment and will answer your questions. They have off the shelf offerings in various power inputs, cams, IEC, twist and all of the standard outputs for power and control, seperate on twist, 7 pin, etc. If that doesn't work for you they do custom. There are other manufactures if you search online, but if you are needing advice it is probably best to buy new and have a resource for tech support. I mean we can help, but the manufacturer knows their gear.


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## DaMenaCe (Nov 3, 2020)

Hey Lex thanks for the info. I hear you on getting support from the manufacturer. We have some lunch box style, 3 phase Motionlabs power distro with CS8364 style plug. I am familiar with the quality of the product and the support they offer but, with the way things are going right now, buying new is a little tough.

I typically rent from 4wall and PRG and hire folks that have the knowledge base to complete the job. With that said, I like to learn and know things so, I am not in the dark, or if I have to resolve an issue I can make an informed decision. i have never really had to use 3 phase power or tie into Can-lock so, this is a bit of new territory, and want to get input from folks that have the experience and happen to know a thing or two, bounce ideas back and forth. 

BTW I spoke to the engineer at the venue and he confirmed, it's set up for 208V, 100 Amp.


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## RonHebbard (Nov 3, 2020)

DaMenaCe said:


> Hey Lex thanks for the info. I hear you on getting support from the manufacturer. We have some lunch box style, 3 phase Motionlabs power distro with CS8364 style plug. I am familiar with the quality of the product and the support they offer but, with the way things are going right now, buying new is a little tough.
> 
> I typically rent from 4wall and PRG and hire folks that have the knowledge base to complete the job. With that said, I like to learn and know things so, I am not in the dark, or if I have to resolve an issue I can make an informed decision. i have never really had to use 3 phase power or tie into Can-lock so, this is a bit of new territory, and want to get input from folks that have the experience and happen to know a thing or two, bounce ideas back and forth.
> 
> BTW I spoke to the engineer at the venue and he confirmed, it's set up for 208V, 100 Amp.


*@DaMenaCe* One BIG caution when operating 3 phase hoists: 
If / when you inadvertently have a phase reversal, not only will the hoist run backwards (Up = Down. Down = Up) It will not see its internal limit switches and will continue hoisting or paying out as if its internal limits weren't there. 
This was previously well covered on Control booth. I'll attempt a brief synopsis to inform / pique your interest: 

When phasing (phase rotation) is correct, if the hoist is lifting, it expects to be hauling chain in. It will haul until it reaches its up limit and stop. Similarly when paying chain out. 

When phase rotation is INCORRECT, if the hoist is lifting it is actually running backwards (lowering); it will reach its down limit switch, the limit it wasn't looking for and keep right on running, likely damaging itself, its load, and those below it. Gravity; it's not just a good idea, it's a law. 
My synopsis hasn't explained this well. Definitely Search the importance of phase rotation with 3 phase hoists. Learn about it. NEVER forget it. Play by the laws and rules. Live long and prosper. 
Toodleoo! 
Ron Hebbard


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## RonHebbard (Nov 3, 2020)

RonHebbard said:


> *@DaMenaCe* One BIG caution when operating 3 phase hoists:
> If / when you inadvertently have a phase reversal, not only will the hoist run backwards (Up = Down. Down = Up) It will not see its internal limit switches and will continue hoisting or paying out as if its internal limits weren't there.
> This was previously well covered on Control booth. I'll attempt a brief synopsis to inform / pique your interest:
> 
> ...


 *@DaMenaCe* Post #15 in this Question Of The Day (https://www.controlbooth.com/threads/importance-of-phase-rotation-on-chain-hoists.46826/#post-411588) is the full answer / explanation. 
Toodleoo! 
Ron Hebbard


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## DaMenaCe (Nov 3, 2020)

@RonHebbard That's good information right there.. Thanks a lot guys. I will go through the thread.


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## Gobokat (Nov 11, 2020)

I realize I'm a little late to the party - but a few basic points the OP may find useful looking at company switch type disconnects in the future.

1) if you see 5 cam outs (Blk, Red, Blu, Wht, Grn) it HAS to be WYE (120/208) power - but - but - 
>>>> whenever working with 3-phase power presentations get and use a decent DVM - and always measure leg-leg and leg-neutral voltage before attaching load.

2) in anything other than a running theater-only venue never assume the previous electrician knew/knows/cares about the difference between Delta and Wye power - and refer to 1b (measure)
(in case your wondering if you did have 5 wires off a Delta 3-phase transformer one of the hot legs to "neutral" would be around 200v - the 3 phase gear wouldn't care but your single phase control and accessories just might) - - and for the fully technical here I know "200v" isn't accurate but it gives a sense of the difference between the high leg and the expected 120 volt potential.

typically true 3-phase equipment (motors/transformers/heaters) won't care about differences in 208 vs 240 volt presentations - however- your fuses or circuit breakers will - that is, a lower presented voltage (208 vs 240) will mean that the equipment will draw more amps. 

As far as making sure that the phase relationship between the hot legs are correct you usually have to be sure you've properly matched your cams correctly and be ready on the stop button if/when the motor begins running backwards, and then take appropriate remediation.

As far as the specific motor distro from Ebay you referenced, it loos to be set up for a dual-twist motor cable setup (4-wire twist for control, 3-wire twist for motor power) but I don't see that it inclues any sort of a remote for actually controlling the motors so be aware that you might still have to use individual pickle controller for 1 motor at a time operation. - - be sure the dual twist configuration matches your current motors.


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## RonHebbard (Nov 12, 2020)

Gobokat said:


> I realize I'm a little late to the party - but a few basic points the OP may find useful looking at company switch type disconnects in the future.
> 
> 1) if you see 5 cam outs (Blk, Red, Blu, Wht, Grn) it HAS to be WYE (120/208) power - but - but -
> >>>> whenever working with 3-phase power presentations get and use a decent DVM - and always measure leg-leg and leg-neutral voltage before attaching load.
> ...


 *@Gobokat* Quoting your recent post: "a lower presented voltage (208 vs 240) will mean that the equipment will draw more amps". 

Are you suggesting an applied voltage of zero volts will cause connected gear to consume infinitely high current? 
In the mid 1990's, I had a co-op student who leapt to this incorrect assumption. I explained if his logic were correct, black-outs would be prohibitively expensive. *@TimMc* Care to comment?
Toodleoo! 
Ron Hebbard


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## DrewE (Nov 12, 2020)

Gobokat said:


> typically true 3-phase equipment (motors/transformers/heaters) won't care about differences in 208 vs 240 volt presentations - however- your fuses or circuit breakers will - that is, a lower presented voltage (208 vs 240) will mean that the equipment will draw more amps.


This comment about current consumption is not entirely correct. Motors will indeed consume more current at a lower voltage in many cases, since their power consumption is related to what they're driving and in general would not be changing greatly with the voltage difference. Devices powered by switching power supplies will likewise show increased current consumption. In both cases there are limits, of course: as the applied voltage approaches zero volts, the current likewise goes to zero, as can be demonstrated by unplugging the equipment. Heaters and other resistive loads will consume less current, per Ohm's law, and consequently have their output reduced by about 25%. A transformer, for all practical purposes, doesn't consume any current in and of itself; its characteristics in relation to a voltage drop or increase would be determined by whatever load is connected to its output.


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## RonaldBeal (Nov 12, 2020)

Gobokat said:


> 1) if you see 5 cam outs (Blk, Red, Blu, Wht, Grn) it HAS to be WYE (120/208) power - but - but -
> >>>> whenever working with 3-phase power presentations get and use a decent DVM - and always measure leg-leg and leg-neutral voltage before attaching load.



The second part is correct, ALWAYS measure leg to leg, and legs to neutral (and I also do legs to ground)
BUT, the first part is incorrect. (which is why we always measure)

On more than one occasion, I have seen 5-cam outs as high leg delta... 240v phase to phase, 208 phase to neutral on one leg, and 120 phase to the other two legs.
By code, the 208 leg cam would be orange instead of red, but can often be hard to discern.... and not everyone follows code... especially with older installs. 
two of the times I ran into this issue were rental generators and transformers, where the transformer had been configured as high-leg, but was not marked.
The third time was a TV gig in an old warehouse that had used high-leg for the previous tenant, and we were the first production in the space.


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## Gobokat (Nov 12, 2020)

RonHebbard said:


> *@Gobokat* Quoting your recent post: "a lower presented voltage (208 vs 240) will mean that the equipment will draw more amps".
> 
> Are you suggesting an applied voltage of zero volts will cause connected gear to consume infinitely high current?
> In the mid 1990's, I had a co-op student who leapt to this incorrect assumption. I explained if his logic were correct, black-outs would be prohibitively expensive. *@TimMc* Care to comment?
> ...



Ron - hmmm, I not much for pure theoretical so I'll leave that to someone who loves doing math on paper (assuming people still do that?)
BUT - I would say that as a motor has voltage decreased it will continue to draw more current until the voltage lowers to a point where the motor stalls at which point I believe the current will spike to a very high level until either the motor burns out, a CB trips, or the power continues to drop past the point at which there is enough EMF to even attempt to spin it.
Does that match your experince / expectations?


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## Gobokat (Nov 12, 2020)

RonaldBeal said:


> The second part is correct, ALWAYS measure leg to leg, and legs to neutral (and I also do legs to ground)
> BUT, the first part is incorrect. (which is why we always measure)
> 
> On more than one occasion, I have seen 5-cam outs as high leg delta... 240v phase to phase, 208 phase to neutral on one leg, and 120 phase to the other two legs.
> ...



This is why I did say that in any installation outside of an actively running theater-only complex to not ever assume the electrician before you knew or cared about the difference between delta and Wye.

You are correct that certain industrial/entertainment generators which are field switchable between 208/240 will have the 5 standard Wye cam outs presented, the installed panels I've seen will only have the Blk/Red/blu/wht/grn in the Wye service installations.

As far as measuring the outputs it is a good idea, and I did neglect, to mention leg to ground - but also neutral to ground to be sure you don't have a floating neutral system.


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## TimMc (Nov 12, 2020)

RonHebbard said:


> *@Gobokat* Quoting your recent post: "a lower presented voltage (208 vs 240) will mean that the equipment will draw more amps".
> 
> Are you suggesting an applied voltage of zero volts will cause connected gear to consume infinitely high current?
> In the mid 1990's, I had a co-op student who leapt to this incorrect assumption. I explained if his logic were correct, black-outs would be prohibitively expensive. *@TimMc* Care to comment?
> ...


Negative voltages will result in a reversal to the space-time continuum. Alternating currents need not apply. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.


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## Dover (Nov 12, 2020)

Gobokat said:


> 1) if you see 5 cam outs (Blk, Red, Blu, Wht, Grn) it HAS to be WYE (120/208) power


I must disagree with this part of your statement, the industry standard of black red blue for 120/208v power is not mandated anywhere in the NEC. The NEC does not even cover any color code other than reserving green, white, gray, and orange for grounds, neutrals, and high legs respectively and states the if you use a color code for identification you may only use those colors for that. Orange is a little odd in that it is reserved only if the building has a high leg. 
While black red blue and brown orange yellow is an almost universal practice across the electrical industry, it is not code. It is however common enough that people get complacent and start assuming. It only takes one odd installation to ruin your day.

And to further muddy the waters in Canada they use black red blue for 575v as well as 208v

And in concurrence with the second part of your post, always meter everything before you connect.
If you do not know how to safely use a meter to check voltages and determine what type of system you are dealing with from those readings you are not qualified to be connecting power at that scale. Stop and get some one who is.

Dover


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## DaMenaCe (Nov 17, 2020)

Hey guys, been away from here for few days. I appreciate the discussion! This is exactly what I hoped for. 

@Gobokat i do have a controller that will be used to control the motors. 

I almost always carry a DVM in my bag pack. it seems logical to take measurement prior to connecting any equipment and hearing from you guys, it seems like I should always check before connecting. 

@Dover I see what you mean about assuming. I am thinking, the color/voltage can be different but a 5 wire system translates to a 3-phase, WYE configuration, yeah? i understand the Concept of High leg so again, metering would help clear things up. 

i see what the point @Gobokat making, most of the power distro I have seen has the Blue, Red, Black, White, and Green Connection points. Furthermore, the few times i have seen the tie in connections at a hotel, they have been of the same (BRBWG) color. i can't say much about the voltage but, just what i have observed.


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## RonHebbard (Nov 17, 2020)

DaMenaCe said:


> Hey guys, been away from here for few days. I appreciate the discussion! This is exactly what I hoped for.
> 
> @Gobokat i do have a controller that will be used to control the motors.
> 
> ...


Up here North of little Donnie's walls, we often see reversed sex cams on neutral and ground. 
On your side of the walls, 120 / 208 is common with 277 / 480 being your next higher voltage. 

Up here North of little Donnie's walls, 120 / 208 is common with our next higher voltage commonly being 347 / 600. 
We rarely see 277 / 480 outside of industrial applications. 
Toodleoo! 
Ron Hebbard


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## DaMenaCe (Nov 17, 2020)

@RonHebbard I picked up few adapters in case I run into reversed genders for Ground and Neutral! thanks for the heads up. Good Information!!


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## TimMc (Nov 17, 2020)

DaMenaCe said:


> @RonHebbard I picked up few adapters in case I run into reversed genders for Ground and Neutral! thanks for the heads up. Good Information!!


Reversed gender ground and neutral are sometimes required by local Code enforcement. The NEC permits 3 (I think) different ways to enforce connection / disconnection order and means of preventing incorrect connections. The lowest is signage (and training to make the operator "competent"), the preferred methods make incorrect connection physically impossible. Reversing gender on ground and neutral is easy to do and costs nothing extra, but the gold standard is used of separately keyed connectors to prevent misconnection of all conductors, with physical interlocks to enforce connection order.


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## Dover (Nov 17, 2020)

DaMenaCe said:


> I am thinking, the color/voltage can be different but a 5 wire system translates to a 3-phase, WYE configuration, yeah?


For the most part, yes, unless as you say it is a high leg delta. It would be extremely odd for a neutral to be pulled out to cams on a high leg system but not impossible that someone has done it for some reason. Very few high leg systems are even installed anymore. The point I was driving at was that 5 wire is almost always a wye, what voltage is that wye. Black red and blue cams are no guarantee that it is a 120/208v system. I had one project where I was using a 480v isolation transformer with the taps set as far as they would go to derive as close to 400/240v power as I could for some European equipment we had. It was still phased brown orange yellow but was not something you wanted to hook your 480v motors up to.


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