# Is it legal



## SteveB (Feb 7, 2020)

A question somebody might have some insight on;

A theater that's been closed for renovation of assorted systems, 3 years this July. Prior to the closure, the existing fire curtain system developed a problem with the motor that enables manual open and closing. 

This is an original building installed (1955) 40ft wide x 20 ft high curtain, counterweighted and motorized, steel framed of about 1ft thickness with 2 layers (each side) of FiberTek (or whatever it was called in the 80's). It's a heavy unit. It has 2 fused links on hemp rope, SL & SR as well as 2 hemp ropes under tension pull releases (SL & SR).

The motor and gearing failed about 2015 or so, thus the curtain has not been lowered since.

The current facility management opinion is that due to the presence of the fused link, the curtain will (in theory) come in if a fire melts the links, or the manual ropes are pulled or cut. Thus we are "code compliant".

I have verbally questioned this as I have read that 1) The curtain should be left "in" or lowered to deck, when the theater is not in use, 2) The system is supposed to be checked at least once every 3 months. 3) There seems to be a requirement to have this system connected to any electronic fire alarm system. 

I found this, but as it's an industry sponsored document I've no idea if a requirement. I have as note, expressed my concerns in writing to the Public Safety Office as well as the Facilities Depart., but have essentially been ignored. As has the problem as far as I can tell. 


https://tsp.esta.org/tsp/documents/docs/ANSI_E1-22_2016_secure.pdf



TIA

SB


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## Van (Feb 7, 2020)

"It'll be fine." is a stupid way to approach fire safety. IMHO they may be code compliant, though I strongly doubt it given New Yorks fire codes, by saying it will drop when it's supposed to but that's not really the point of the test. The test is to prove that all the safety systems, the timing of the last part of the drop, the smooth operation of the entire system must be checked.
I'll let someone else address the particulars but this ticks me off, royally.


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## Malabaristo (Feb 7, 2020)

I'll take #3 because it's probably the easiest: if the fire curtain was installed before this rule was added, then it wouldn't need to meet that modern requirement (ignoring, for the moment, the question of whether it is required in your jurisdiction).

The rest is a little fuzzier because it ends up coming down to what the Fire Marshal is willing to sign off on... but usually "I think it probably works" isn't going to be good enough for a complex mechanical system that does have a required testing interval. If you have a friendly relationship with your Fire Marshal, then it might be worth starting a conversation on how to remedy the situation to their satisfaction and use that as ammunition with the school staff. If that relationship is at all adversarial, then there's a possibility the place will be shut down until the equipment is repaired. 

I'm kind of surprised that a 3 year renovation didn't manage to include fixing a known issue with a life safety system... but also kind of not.


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## SteveB (Feb 7, 2020)

Malabaristo said:


> I'll take #3 because it's probably the easiest: if the fire curtain was installed before this rule was added, then it wouldn't need to meet that modern requirement (ignoring, for the moment, the question of whether it is required in your jurisdiction).



I would think that a critical life safety item such as this is not going to fall under the "grandfathered" rule and will need to be updated to current code. 

Lot's of complex reasons the 3 yr. renovation didn't touch this, mostly as the work was specifically HVAC system upgrades as well as exterior ramp/concrete work. It just happend to take 2-1/2 - 3 years and during that time there has been some key personal changes in the facilities management (for the better). There is however, a critical lack of oversight as to the general state of the theater, the building it's in and the many systems that make the building function. This is and unfortunately true for our entire campus, as far as I can tell, but I am not necessarily privy to all the discussions. Much of this comes down to a severe lack of funding in general to maintain infrastructure. 

That funding is a major issue as they struggle with the cost of getting the grid mounted motor and gearing removed and replaced. I've heard noise about weight and needing a crane, LOL. Hopefully somebody won't realize it's cheaper to remove all and install a deluge and being that we are under 50 ft.., floor to steel, may end up the solution.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Feb 7, 2020)

The document you reference has no statutory basis for being applied. Could it be used in litigation? Yes. Is it law. No.

If you are in NYC, you need to comply with NYC law. Many jurisdictions use the Life Safety Code as the model for their laws, either adopting it, with or without amendments (which rarely affect theatre issues). I don't believe NYC uses the Life Safety Code but not sure. 

The Life Safety Code references NFPA 80 which among other stuff says:

20.7 Operation of the Fire Safety Curtain Assembly.
20.7.1 General.
20.7.1.1* The fire safety curtain assembly shall be closed at all
times except when there is an event, rehearsal, or similar activity.
20.7.1.2 Automatic emergency closing shall be by gravity.
20.7.1.3 Emergency operation shall be verified by the owner
every 90 days.
20.7.1.4 A signed and dated testing report shall be kept on file
with the owner for review by the AHJ as an ongoing acceptance
procedure.

Which suggests to me that your fire safety curtain would not comply with the Life Safety Code.

I cannot find NYC codes online.

And, as others point out, ultimately whatever the building official/authority having jurisdiction will accept is all that matters.


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## SteveB (Feb 7, 2020)

Thx Bill (and Ron for the typo notes)

I too cannot find the pertinent NYC codes and outside of contacting the NYFD not sure what they might be. I am of course, reluctant to open the can of worms that comes with that call and feel it is currently inappropriate as for all I know the college is and or has been in touch with the AHJ and I’m just not in the loop. As well we are not currently functional so are probably not in violation for now.

I can quote the sections as noted by Bill and pass along (Unless Bill objects).


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## BillConnerFASTC (Feb 7, 2020)

Go ahead. But if the internet fails, codes are almost always in libraries.


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