# Scoop light bulb replacements?



## JLNorthGA (Jan 24, 2012)

We have a set of 16" scoops that we use for working lights on stage.

We have three with Edison plugs that live up on the catwalk and eight with stage pin plugs that live on the raceways above the stage.

They take mogul base incandescent bulbs. Bulbs burn out. They need to be replaced.
Who might be a good source for replacement bulbs?


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## jonliles (Jan 24, 2012)

Last time I bought bulbs for scoops I went to Barbizon in ATL. They had a halogen mounted in a mogul base. When I get in my car I will look at the details on the box.


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## jonliles (Jan 24, 2012)

Scoop bulb JT120V-500WB ... I bet Barbizon will ship them to you.

BulbAmerica has them:
http://www.bulbamerica.com/ushio-jt120v-500w-e39-base-inner-tube-halogen-bulb.html

Much cheaper than the $100 traditional 500W Clear Incandescants!


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## Grog12 (Jan 24, 2012)

BMI
Barbizon
Bulbtronics
Norcostco

Here'sa yellow page list for Charlotte:
Charlotte Theatrical Equipment Supplies | Theatrical Equipment Supplies in Charlotte, NC - YP.com


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## JD (Jan 24, 2012)

SUNLITE 500w A/CL 130v Mogul Base Clear Bulb 24pcs

24 of them for $136 works out to about $5.67 a bulb.


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## gafftapegreenia (Jan 24, 2012)

jonliles said:


> Scoop bulb JT120V-500WB ... I bet Barbizon will ship them to you.
> 
> BulbAmerica has them:
> USHIO JT120v-500w E39 base Inner Tube Halogen Bulb
> ...



I can't believe I've never found that. 500 watts of 3200K out of mogul based scoops! Perfect.


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## JLNorthGA (Jan 24, 2012)

Thanks all - lots of choices then - for vendors as well as bulb types.

I've been using incandescent bulbs. Should I consider other types (and if so, which one)?

I just use them for work lights and for rehearsals.


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## derekleffew (Jan 24, 2012)

jonliles said:


> Scoop bulb JT120V-500WB ... I bet Barbizon will ship them to you.
> BulbAmerica has them:
> USHIO JT120v-500w E39 base Inner Tube Halogen Bulb
> Much cheaper than the $100 traditional 500W Clear Incandescents!


Not that it matters a great deal in a scoop, but note that the linear filament of the lamp above is the wrong shape for a radial ellipsoidal reflector flood.

However, it is significantly more budget-friendly than the 1000W PS40, at ~$70!


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## gafftapegreenia (Jan 24, 2012)

Random scoop thoughts:

Who made a 16" scoop with a mogul screw socket? I've seen 14" scoops with mogul screw base sockets, but all the 16" scoops I've worked with used double ended T lamps. Kliegl did once have a  15" scoop  that used PS lamps. 

Another side note: It seems Altman is no longer making an 18" scoop. I believe that leaves only Mole as the lone current maker of an 18" scoop.

Has ship somewhere written a wall of text on scoops that I've neglected to read?


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## JLNorthGA (Jan 24, 2012)

gafftapegreenia said:


> Random scoop thoughts:
> 
> Who made a 16" scoop with a mogul screw socket? I've seen 14" scoops with mogul screw base sockets, but all the 16" scoops I've worked with used double ended T lamps. Kliegl did once have a  15" scoop  that used PS lamps.
> 
> ...


 
They are unlabeled. They maybe 14" - I don't know. I'll measure them.

They date back to the early 1980s and are part of the playhouse's original equipment.


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## zmb (Jan 24, 2012)

JLNorthGA said:


> Thanks all - lots of choices then - for vendors as well as bulb types.
> 
> I've been using incandescent bulbs. Should I consider other types (and if so, which one)?
> 
> I just use them for work lights and for rehearsals.


 
Maybe a Mogul base CFL if one exists and you can take the instruments off of dimmers.


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## mstaylor (Jan 24, 2012)

JLNorthGA said:


> They are unlabeled. They maybe 14" - I don't know. I'll measure them.
> 
> They date back to the early 1980s and are part of the playhouse's original equipment.


A good chance they are EC scoops. I think they had either a 15 or 16 in scoop.


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## ship (Jan 24, 2012)

Above isn't really fair to all suppliers of lamps - lots of them. Lots of them in perhaps shop or compare local first before national that literally hundreds of vendors can do.


Nope.. never really written a wall of literature on the scoop. Spoke perhaps some on how it got invented by way of bunch light, than Olivalitte, than Olivalitte with reflector and now the scoop assuming the frame about the lamp was no longer needed. Than came the eventual innovation of halogen to the scoop. 

Given most types of scoops are still currently in the inventory, never really had that need to collect obsolete.

On scoop lamps do like the DKZ/DSE	GE/Thorn #39582	about an ED-37 size/shape, Inside Frost, Incd. Silica Coated - believe halogen capsule	1Kw/120v .	E-39	Lcl 9.1/2"/3,200°K/28,000L/750hours	18" Scoop lamp.

Only available thru the now Borg owned L.E. Nelson lamps.

Smaller lamp breaks less in moving and better overall lamp in only supplier of this.

Compact Fluorescent if work light is interesting. Easy enough to do a E-39 to E-26 adaptor on any socket, and given a U-Shape CFL concept, probably woudn't even need a E-26 to E-26 socket extender. Would look into something in the 43 Watt CFL range though to get at least some output out of the scoop.


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## derekleffew (Jan 25, 2012)

gafftapegreenia said:


> ... Kliegl did once have a  15" scoop  that used PS lamps. ...



<----Really?! I had no idea.  /sarcasm


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## gafftaper (Jan 25, 2012)

Are these primarily being used for works? How about replacing them with a CFL with a mogul base? I found a 105 Watt CFL, supposedly equal to a 420 Watt Incandescent, at 5000k (seriously white so it'll seem even brighter), 7150 lumens, 10,000 hour rating, for $19.21 here. I bet there are other sources as well that was just my first Google hit.


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## JohnD (Jan 25, 2012)

Does anyone else get a chuckle out of the fact than many of these online LAMP sources have BULB in their name? BulbAmerica, 1000Bulbs, I think there is also Bulbstogo, how about a BulbsRUs.


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## ccm1495 (Jan 25, 2012)

JohnD said:


> Does anyone else get a chuckle out of the fact than many of these online LAMP sources have BULB in their name? BulbAmerica, 1000Bulbs, I think there is also Bulbstogo, how about a BulbsRUs.


 
bulbtronics


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## jonliles (Jan 25, 2012)

JD said:


> SUNLITE 500w A/CL 130v Mogul Base Clear Bulb 24pcs
> 
> 24 of them for $136 works out to about $5.67 a bulb.




I knew I should have read the fine print...


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## jonliles (Jan 25, 2012)

gafftaper said:


> Are these primarily being used for works? How about replacing them with a CFL with a mogul base? I found a 105 Watt CFL, supposedly equal to a 420 Watt Incandescent, at 5000k (seriously white so it'll seem even brighter), 7150 lumens, 10,000 hour rating, for $19.21 here. I bet there are other sources as well that was just my first Google hit.



Those won't work with my radial scoops, but by golly, I can use those elsewhere! Great find!


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## gafftapegreenia (Jan 25, 2012)

derekleffew said:


> <----Really?! I had no idea.  /sarcasm


 
I never realize that was a 15" scoop.


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## jonliles (Jan 25, 2012)

gafftapegreenia said:


> Random scoop thoughts:
> 
> Who made a 16" scoop with a mogul screw socket? I've seen 14" scoops with mogul screw base sockets, but all the 16" scoops I've worked with used double ended T lamps. Kliegl did once have a  15" scoop  that used PS lamps.
> 
> ...



The OEM of my scoops was Altman and they are a fair bit older than you =)


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## jonliles (Jan 25, 2012)

derekleffew said:


> Not that it matters a great deal in a scoop, but note that the linear filament of the lamp above is the wrong shape for a radial ellipsoidal reflector flood.
> 
> However, it is significantly more budget-friendly than the 1000W PS40, at ~$70!



It is a little off compared to the incandescent with the correct filament shape, but as general boat-load-o-light it works well. I keep 4 of them on stage. Use them for everything from a general wash to work lights.


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## gafftaper (Jan 25, 2012)

Hey JLNorthGa, 
Are these just used as works? If yes, another great option would be to head down to Lowes/Home Depot and buy some 48" fluorescent tube shop light fixtures and dump your scoops. I think you can get them with a nice secure cover and the tubes for around $30. It would be far more efficient, longer lasting, and way easier to deal with when they burn out. Old scoops are so inefficient if you don't need them for stage purposes don't use them at all, move on to something modern for your work lights.


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## JD (Jan 25, 2012)

gafftaper said:


> Hey JLNorthGa,
> Are these just used as works? If yes, another great option would be to head down to Lowes/Home Depot and buy some 48" fluorescent tube shop light fixtures and dump your scoops. I think you can get them with a nice secure cover and the tubes for around $30. It would be far more efficient, longer lasting, and way easier to deal with when they burn out. Old scoops are so inefficient if you don't need them for stage purposes don't use them at all, move on to something modern for your work lights.


 
Well the USED to be $30! With the pending T12/T8 ban, all the new fixtures that take the T5 are $100 and up! Hard to find any of the old style T8/T12 fixtures in stock anymore because the threat of the ban caused manufacturers to stop production. Still some T8's but they are slated for ban. We need about 100 for the church I work at. (Luckily we stocked up on lamps!)


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## Nelson (Jan 25, 2012)

Remember that the T8 ban will only affect the least-expensive 700-series 4' tubes. 700-series long life and 800-series will still be available, so I'm not sure why fixture manufacturers would stop making T8 fixtures. I haven't tried to buy shoplights in a while, so I don't know what is available for fixtures, but I don't see why T8 fixtures would not be readily available.

Even the T12 ban will only ban the cheaper tubes. Cool White Deluxe, Daylight Deluxe, and the very expensive high-CRI trisphosphor tubes will still be available.

Sorry, back on topic  :
I've always used regular incandescent lamps in our scoops. However, 120 volt lamps are largely being discontinued, so only 130 volt lamps are available. They are just dim enough and just a little too warm in color for my likes, so I might start looking at halogens next time I order.

By the way, our electrical supplier charges $9.72 for Sylvania 500 watt PS35/IF (inside frost) 130-volt lamps. I don't remember what the 1000 watt lamps cost, but it wasn't excessively more expensive. Still, they're only available in 130 volt versions from the major manufacturers.


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## JD (Jan 25, 2012)

Nelson said:


> Even the T12 ban will only ban the cheaper tubes. Cool White Deluxe, Daylight Deluxe, and the very expensive high-CRI trisphosphor tubes will still be available.



Environmental Information Center - 2009 DOE Lumens Per Watt Regulations - Linear Fluorescent Lamps (Effective July 14, 2012)

4 ft. T12 and T8, Linear 25W and above:

"All Standard 4 ft. T12 lamps are eliminated."

Some T8s do:

"F32 minimum 2850 lumens: Standard SP lamps at 2800 lumens don't meet standard. Current F32/SPX, High Lumen, F30, F28 and 25W meet standard."


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## Nelson (Jan 25, 2012)

It looks like GE might be oversimplifying the new requirements. At home, I have a really nice document either from the DoE or from NEMA that outlines the new regulations, but I can't seem to find it on the Web. Here is one from Sylvania (if the link works):
http://assets.sylvania.com/assets/Documents/Prod.0bbbbb5d-fb92-4ebe-830f-621b9a13306b.pdf

Take a look at page 23 of the Sylvania document. It states that
"Majority of today’s F40 and F34T12 lamps and all FB40 and FB34T12 U-lamps fail
A very few very high lumen rare earth phosphor lamps will pass
Exemption for lamps with CRI ≥ 87 (CWX/DX/DSGN50/C50/C75)"

At one point, I also found a nice document from Sylvania that outlined replacement lamps for soon-to-be-banned fluorescent tubes. It did indicate that Sylvania will continue to make CWX and DX (deluxe halophosphate) tubes as well as introduce a new line of very-high-CRI triphosphor T12 tubes. I'm still using T12 tubes with magnetic ballasts everywhere I can because I've found magnetic ballasts to be much more reliable than electronic ballasts . Even though magnetic ballasts aren't quite as efficient as electronic, they are more reliable, and are still very efficient compared to incandescent, so I'm sticking with them as long as I can!

These documents were much easier to find on Sylvania's old Web site. Why'd they have to go and change it all around?!


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## JLNorthGA (Jan 25, 2012)

I "sit" corrected. The outer edge of the scoops is 16" - that is the gel frame diameter.

The scoops have "LE" on the handle (those that still have handles). The inner reflector is slightly under 14". Therefore I'm assuming they are L&E 14" scoops.

I measured the distance a typical bulb might occupy. I don't believe that 11+" CFL bulb will work. But I'll see if they have some smaller ones.


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## JD (Jan 25, 2012)

Nelson said:


> I'm still using T12 tubes with magnetic ballasts everywhere I can because I've found magnetic ballasts to be much more reliable than electronic ballasts . Even though magnetic ballasts aren't quite as efficient as electronic, they are more reliable, and are still very efficient compared to incandescent, so I'm sticking with them as long as I can!



I thought it was just me! We have 5 fixtures in the building (out of about 100) that have the electronic ballasts. I replaced two of them last year! 

Most of the mag ballasts are from 1990, and I end up changing them at a rate of about 1 a year.


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## Nelson (Jan 25, 2012)

Yeah, its too bad that magnetic ballasts for 4' lamps were banned. They aren't perfect, but seem to be better overall than electronic ballasts. I realize I'm making a general statement about electronic ballasts, but my experience so far has not been good! One weakness with mags is that you can't leave bad lamps in them. As soon as I see burned out lamps on magnetic ballasts, I change them right away. By doing that, I rarely have a failure.

I also "sit" partially corrected. I just realized that Sylvania still makes a 500 watt PS35 mogul base lamp in 120 volt, but only in clear, not in inside frost.


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## tjrobb (Jan 25, 2012)

We just changed a large chunk of our building to electronic ballast T8 from mag T12 (400 or so lamps) via a rebate. Some of the still working mag ballasts were from 1981!


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## Nelson (Jan 26, 2012)

The custodian just brought me a box of six electronic T8 ballasts this morning that died recently, all still under warranty. Sad, isn't it? They might use less electricity than magnetic ballasts, but what's the cost of the additional labor to keep replacing them? Some are failing under warranty, but we still have the hassle of filing a warranty claim and paying postage to return the old ballasts. And if they aren't under warranty, we are spending more on new ballasts. I don't see how we are saving anything!

Magnetic ballasts for T8 tubes are available, but I don't know how reliable they are. I would hope that they are as reliable as the old standard T12 mag ballasts, but I shouldn't make that assumption. They are also much more expensive than comparable electronic ballasts.

Edit: Forgot to mention: The other enemy of T12 magnetic ballasts is 34 watt energy-saving tubes. This is especially true with older ballasts that weren't designed to handle 34 watt tubes. The electrical characteristics are different enough from 40 watt tubes that 34 watt tubes can't be used on all ballasts. Problem is, because of EPACT92, 40 watt tubes are much harder to find and are more expensive. Cheap "cool white" halophosphate tubes are only available in 34 watt. The best price my supplier can give me on 40 watt tubes is around $3 per tube for basic Sylvania D41 T12s. However, I can buy them at Menards for around $13 per 10-pack. Don't know why my supplier can't get them for that price!


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## ship (Jan 27, 2012)

Perhaps off current topic, but does anyone remember the latter days of scoop lamps where there was some silica sand in them so as to swirl around in cleaning the lamp?

Don't remember when I last saw such a lamp, but it was a DKZ or some similar 1Kw Mog. Screw lamp I thought I remembered cleaning it on. Gotta by these times I think be considered an old timer if you swirled a lamp as to clean it from the inside, as opposed to cleaning it from the outside. Crank perhaps in such a concept but it did exist.


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## gafftaper (Jan 27, 2012)

Wait Ship... What? A lamp you clean on the inside?  

Did it do any good? 

Was the idea to prevent sublimation or was it just to clean up a bit?


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## JChenault (Jan 27, 2012)

ship said:


> Perhaps off current topic, but does anyone remember the latter days of scoop lamps where there was some silica sand in them so as to swirl around in cleaning the lamp?
> 
> Don't remember when I last saw such a lamp, but it was a DKZ or some similar 1Kw Mog. Screw lamp I thought I remembered cleaning it on. Gotta by these times I think be considered an old timer if you swirled a lamp as to clean it from the inside, as opposed to cleaning it from the outside. Crank perhaps in such a concept but it did exist.


 
I do remember lamps with some kind of sand on the inside that you could swirl around to get rid of some of the black soot on the inside of the lamp. I don't remember this feature on a scoop lamp somehow as I seem to remember it in burn base down lamps, and the sand would collect at the base of the lamp and not screw up the optics. 

Just my memory - and it is pretty faint.


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## derekleffew (Jan 27, 2012)

Faint memory is accurate. Needs to be a BBD lamp.


jstandfast said:


> STEVETERRY said:
> 
> 
> > Another question for our young turks: If there was powder in the lamp, what was it for?
> ...




tjrobb said:


> If it was incandescent it was possibly to clean the lamp. After the globe started to blacken you would remove the lamp and rattle the powder around to reduce lumen loss by cleaning the globe. The new guy would often get a little violent and damage the filament. (FWIW, I am NOT speaking from experience. I was born well after halogen "replaced" incandescent).
> 
> That, or the darn thing lost so much tungsten it showed up in the globe...




derekleffew said:


> Correct, jstandfast and *tjrobb*. The tungsten wire making up the filament of this and similar lamps was so thick that it hardly ever broke. But, as the tungsten molecules left the filament, they were deposited on the inside of the envelope, darkening it and severely decreasing light output (this was before the Halogen cycle). ...


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## ship (Jan 27, 2012)

Faint memory and Derek for President in pulling up it all up.

Good times in the past in a concept. Totally sure it would be useless for the current generation of Professional Lighting Techintions that can't tell a bad lamp socket even if cause of lamp failure from a good one in just throwing a new lamp into a perfectly bad socket and getting the show up and running. 

"Only had so much time" and in a few weeks when visiting this fixture again amongst others with the same problem, you will again only have so much time. Than the next time in less time lasting as a per day rate of the Pro' pay rate per lamp of each lamp each lamp changed each day changed, only so much time, you throw another perfectly good lamp into a bad socket. (I want a raise... yet in even re-hiring you cost us X amount in even doing further work?) That's something I'm working on doing... Sorry to skilled tech people that work hard but don't do their jobs in not knowing what the heck they are doing and or are better suited for gas station attendants.

Eventually it this good lamp installed into a perfectly bad socket will of course stop working in trashing another lamp. Average like four lamps before really bad in noticing and like 125 hours per lamp less in lamp life. This each lamp at day labor cost per lamp - and each time the fixture was visited in costing time to change the lamp until totally melted down and delaying further in no longer able to light the lamp.

By that time, such a fixture will normally be sent back to the shop in not working properly and be replaced by another one.

Only a scoop? Yea, only a scoop, people using them know all about them also.

Wait... I mispeak, common terminolgy is "broken" "Bad Lamp" etc as to explain why the lamp was replaced. Did really hit the point in the overall problem in taking it no further in why it did so. Frequent problems is not associated with any cause such as voltage or broken fan or ignighter for a mover - lamp's fault and often in bulk. Lamps are dim.... must be the lamps.

Thought I caught a problem of one of the silicone sand particles above in finding it's way to the filament in causing problems in the filament in an above post in getting back to the topic.... Think that's important in idiot proofing and is that why such lamps got discontinued? '

Do remember the silica sand within an inside frost DKZ globe though - even if frosted, when I questioned what the black particles are, I was told their use in doing so. Didn't effect the frosting.


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