# Black box on proscenium stage - concerns?



## EWCguy (Nov 20, 2018)

We have a community theatre group whose next director would like to do a "black box" style of show. Since our college only has a proscenium space, I considered how this could be possible. My idea is to build seating risers for chairs on the stage, essentially facing the audience toward the open house with at 24' square acting space. So, three sets of seating platforms, say at 8", 16," 24" elevations from the stage floor, maybe 100 people. We could easily put some flats up beind each section of seating and some behind the actors (at lip of actual stage) for a back wall and a closed-in feeling.

The idea has met with furrowed brows, perhaps even a denial of the plan based on "liability concerns." I'm wondering just what those liability concerns might be... moreso, which of them are real and not just tossed out because they don't want to do anything differently than the status quo.

Venue is a public college stage/auditorium in Wyoming, US.

Enjoy! Thanks.


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## RonHebbard (Nov 20, 2018)

EWCguy said:


> We have a community theatre group who's next director would like to do a "black box" style of show. Since our college only has a proscenium space, I considered how this could be possible. My idea is to build seating risers for chairs on the stage, essentially facing the audience toward the open house with at 24' square acting space. So, three sets of seating platforms, say at 8", 16," 24" elevations from the stage floor, maybe 100 people. We could easily put some flats up beind each section of seating and some behind the actors (at lip of actual stage) for a back wall and a closed-in feeling.
> 
> The idea has met with furrowed brows, perhaps even a denial of the plan based on "liability concerns." I'm wondering just what those liability concerns might be... moreso, which of them are real and not just tossed out because they don't want to do anything differently than the status quo.
> 
> ...


 *@EWCguy* Does your prosc' space have a functional existing fire curtain*?* 
Would you keep the fire curtain fully in to the deck throughout*?* 
Would your fire curtain prevent anyone, patrons or performers, from inadvertently walking off the stage and falling into the pit or house*?* 
Would you be able to provide lighting of any / all emergency exits, possibly from overhead positions on existing LX pipe ends*?* 
Would all of the above satisfy your AHJ's, Authorities Having Jurisdiction*???* 
If so, _where's the problem_ other than it may differ from someone's idea of their norm*??* 
A few years back, prior to the mini-stroke that stole my vision and forced my retirement, I used to involve my self annually with the technical aspects of a local "Fringe Festival". The Fringe used to perform for ten consecutive days in typically five venues. Every year they pulled together five venues within a 20 minute walk from each other so that audiences could buy a series ticket and walk between venues within the minimal time between performances. Often they'd schedule four performances per venue PER DAY. 
BACK TO YOUR POINT. One year the smaller of two theatres in Hamilton, Ontario served as three Fringe venues simultaneously by housing one show in the Studio Theatre venue, another in the balcony of the main theatre's lobby and the third venue EXACTLY as you're intending with the audience and performers working in a curtained off portion of the main stage. Marshaling patrons around the building and making sure washrooms were available for everyone required the most forethought and pre-planning. It helped that there were at least eight washrooms to begin with between female, male and unisex wheel chair accessible washrooms at both levels of the public lobby plus dressing rooms with washrooms back stage at deck level plus at least one more powder room associated with the normal Equity green room. 
*Go for it*,_ put your creative / artistic talents to work._ If a simple career techie can figure it out, surely the artistes can make it happen. 
Toodleoo! 
Ron Hebbard


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## Van (Nov 20, 2018)

You would need to check with your AHJ of course but I think your biggest issue is going to be a clearly defined means of Egress for the Audience. I've seen Audience seated on stage before, and I've done it in a real black box before but we consulted with the fire Marshall. We had to cut down our normal audience seating, by the number of seats we were adding on stage. the exits had to be clearly visible and marked from the on-stage seating areas. 
I bet @BillConnerFASTC would have really good input on this.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Nov 20, 2018)

I'd say this practice is nearly common. Certainly not rare. I have planned stages to do just what you are describing.

The two main issues have been mentioned: falling off the stage and basic egress. Falling off the stage can be handled - temporary guards, fire curtain, other. Meeting all the egress requirements is trickier, since a lot of purpose built black boxes don't. Having enough marked means of egress should not be hard - one to 50 occupants and two up to 500. And width - .22" per person. (36" door is about 150 people) illumination of the aisles and paths to the doors - 0.2 fc - isn't hard but often missing - even in fixed seating. 

There is simply no safety reason not to do this. If specific objections come up, post here.

BTW 8" is a little high. Consider 12s with intermediate steps.

Oh - and fasten the chairs!! I've worked on a couple of litigation projects over portable chairs falling off portable risers in black boxes.


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## SteveB (Nov 20, 2018)

Our Dept. Of Theater did this twice a year for ten years. We typically seated 120 in a number of configurations, 3 sided, 4 sides and 2 sided. 

In addition to Bills comments, an issue we never dealt with was required emergency lighting on stage, for audience egress. We were OK with lit exit lights on side doors, left our fire curtain out, but I’ve no clue if egress thru the 2300 seat auditorium would have been considered legal as the fire curtain would, in theory, trip in a fire condition. Of course as our fire curtain is old style and not connected to a detector, a Fire would have been well established, thus the hope was the audience was out by then.

Our backstage had NO emergency lighting of any kind, battery or otherwise, but the powers that made the decisions opted to ignore that issue. 

My advice is to get an AHJ in to go over what the group wants to do and what will be required to make it legal, do a cost estimate and run it past the group. My guess is they will pass, due to expense.


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## Ben Stiegler (Nov 20, 2018)

The Curran theater here in SF did a whole season this way - the house was stil being renovated and Carole Shorenstein (formerly of Hayes Nederlander Shorenstein) planned a brilliant season of intimate experiences all staged this way on the stage floor. Comments above are wise - prevent falls, ensure egress, check for loose sandbags above! 

Have fun!

Ben


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## EWCguy (Nov 21, 2018)

You folks are great. Thanks for this guidance.


RonHebbard said:


> Does your prosc' space have a functional existing fire curtain*?*
> Would you keep the fire curtain fully in to the deck throughout*?*
> Would your fire curtain prevent anyone, patrons or performers, from inadvertently walking off the stage and falling into the pit or house*?*
> Would you be able to provide lighting of any / all emergency exits, possibly from overhead positions on existing LX pipe ends*?*
> Would all of the above satisfy your AHJ's, Authorities Having Jurisdiction*???*



In answers to Ron's questions:

No fire curtain -- no fly system, travelers and legs dead-hung.
N/A, though the grand would be partially closed.

DNE, so flats would be constructed in pit along stage edge as back wall of performance space.
Battery-powered emergency lights exist on the stage in both wings and at existing points of egress, even through scene shop.
As advised throughout the thread, this would be my next step to check.
I've attached a concept plan. 8" rise on platforms/risers for audience is considered because I have existing 3'x6' commercial units at those heights, with edge boards (to prevent chair slippage) and interconnect. I think egress by audience volume is addressed by existing means and lighting. Actual seating capacity would depend on needed pathways off the risers -- We're at 98 in this concept plan.

I think the restroom situation will be the deal breaker. We can accommodate patron entrance at stage level through the scene shop and provide access to single restrooms at stage level where our actors would normally utilize. However, to get to a restroom with multiple stalls entaills a long flight of stairs up to lobby level for the men's and further travel to the opposite side of the auditorium for women's (unless we allow access via the auditorium to that side).


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## BillConnerFASTC (Nov 21, 2018)

When you say flats, I still think of conventional canvas and frame. I doubt these would meet the strength requirements - or even come very close - for a guard at pit edge -but hollywood flats might. May depend on connection.

I wondered if there was a chance for "bridge" to audience - for entrance, egress, and access to usual toilet rooms. Maybe from the ends of the calier stage area? Just a thought.


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## danTt (Nov 21, 2018)

How do you normally guard your pit when it's not in use? Or have the powers that be not gotten to that item on the checklist yet?


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## BillConnerFASTC (Nov 21, 2018)

I dont know who danTt is asking, but the Life Safety Code now requires you have a written plan to protect occupants from the fall hazard resulting from the exception for guards on stages. There is a list of measures in the appendix one might consider including in the plan. I'll try to post that when at my desk. I believe increasing awarenes of the hazard to people on stage is probably most important. It seems to be non-theatre people who are frequent victims.


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## RonHebbard (Nov 21, 2018)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> I dont know who danTt is asking, but the Life Safety Code now requires you have a written plan to protect occupants from the fall hazard resulting from the exception for guards on stages. There is a list of measures in the appendix one might consider including in the plan. I'll try to post that when at my desk. I believe increasing awareness of the hazard to people on stage is probably most important. It seems to be non-theatre people who are frequent victims.


 *@BillConnerFASTC* Agreed and posting in full support. Back in the fall of 1973 when the city of Hamilton, Ontario, opened their Hamilton Place Great Hall and Studio Theatre venues, the City of Hamilton rotated every fire fighter on their staff, something like eight or nine stations / platoons of them, through our theatre with particular interest and emphasis on our stage lip. For several successive weeks my steady gig was shuffling the four seating wagons and twin hydraulic fore-stage lifts so every firefighter had the opportunity to see the lifts and seats in all conceivable configurations including a possible descent of some twenty feet to the bottom of the lowest seat wagon storage area. For a while, new firefighters came through at approximately yearly intervals. This may still be the case but I moved on to Stratford, Ontario in the spring of 1977. 
Toodleoo! 
Ron Hebbard


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## BillConnerFASTC (Nov 22, 2018)

The fire service was the catalyst for why I pursued the fall from stage subject. In researching stage fires for other code changes, I looked at the NFPA database of fire incidents. There were 26 relavant incidents over a 5 year period. Not much damage, <$10,000 average, and no civilian injuries, but in 5 of the 26, fire service was injured from walks off the stage.


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## RonHebbard (Nov 23, 2018)

EWCguy said:


> We have a community theatre group whose next director would like to do a "black box" style of show. Since our college only has a proscenium space, I considered how this could be possible. My idea is to build seating risers for chairs on the stage, essentially facing the audience toward the open house with at 24' square acting space. So, three sets of seating platforms, say at 8", 16," 24" elevations from the stage floor, maybe 100 people. We could easily put some flats up beind each section of seating and some behind the actors (at lip of actual stage) for a back wall and a closed-in feeling.
> 
> The idea has met with furrowed brows, perhaps even a denial of the plan based on "liability concerns." I'm wondering just what those liability concerns might be... moreso, which of them are real and not just tossed out because they don't want to do anything differently than the status quo.
> 
> ...


 *@EWCguy* If / when your performances are for young children, you can start off with cushions or tumbling / yoga mats flat on the deck for your first row or two before adding benches or chairs and then your first stable risers with hand rails. Please post back and let us know how this works out for you. 
Toodleoo! 
Ron Hebbard


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## BillConnerFASTC (Nov 23, 2018)

Ron makes a good point. When I was an undergrad, i directed a show in the college union ballroom. It had been equipped with a fairly large lighting system, Kliegl, and i never saw it used except this once. They also had 30" 4x8 risers. I set up three on each side of a roughly 20x20 acring area with 4 rows - sitting on floor, row of chairs on floor, sitting on edge of platforms, row of chairs on platforms. Worked well for a college audience.


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## MNicolai (Nov 23, 2018)

Re: Pit edge guards -- depends on the stage floor type and ability to screw into it, but I've worked on black-box-in-proscenium shows where the AHJ was satisfied by temporary 2x4 railings screwed to the floor around the pit like you'd see on a construction site. Obviously a little sexier and with a coat of paint than this photo below.


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## macsound (Nov 23, 2018)

Also looking at how your audience gets on stage, I might reduce the number of legs you have hung, especially since they have the return at the end. In an emergency, and even during intermission, there's not much visible space between one 90degree leg's return and the face of the next leg downstage.


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## TimMc (Nov 23, 2018)

All find and dandy, but how are you going to get wheelchair access and suitable emergency egress for wheelchair users? Restrooms would be the next matter. For those 2 things I'm betting you'll not be doing this.


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## RonHebbard (Nov 24, 2018)

TimMc said:


> All find and dandy, but how are you going to get wheelchair access and suitable emergency egress for wheelchair users? Restrooms would be the next matter. For those 2 things I'm betting you'll not be doing this.


 * @TimMc* You mean you built your stage before approved wheelchair access and washrooms were mandatory? 
I opened a theatre built from the foundations up in the fall of 1990 which included elevators for wheelchairs on both sides along with accessible washrooms. We even included a double width stairwell directly from the pit and trap room up to a double-wide crash bar door immediately next to the stage door. It wasn't perfect but it was a darned good start. 
Toodleoo! 
Ron Hebbard


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## Stan Longhofer (Nov 24, 2018)

We do a similar thing for a 3/4 round black box, but face the center audience section upstage with the acting area backed by the rear wall/cyc. For the center seating area we use choir seating risers. These come with rear rails for safety and perfectly fit the arc of the stage apron while leaving wide aisles right and left for the audience to enter from the house. To mask off the house we use pipe and drape. We then build platforms for the left and right seating areas.


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## StradivariusBone (Nov 26, 2018)

We just did this! We built a 3/4 thrust stage and used pipe and drape to mask the wingspace. Our stage has two exits to the side hallways that we used for audience in/egress and the actors entered the stage via a door on the upstage wall. The play was "12 Angry Jurors". 

We didn't build the audience on platforms due to cost and the safety factor of protecting the top row from tilting backward. The slightly elevated acting surface seemed to work fine, with some slightly sacrificed sight lines. To protect the stage edge we created a few freestanding b-way flats and painted them to match the upstage wall. It lended quite a bit to the illusion of being in the room with the cast, while making a reasonably defined boundary to the downstage space. In retrospect we probably could have done more to protect that edge, but we didn't have any trouble with it during this run. I think we capped the number of chairs at 120-130. 

It was definitely a fun project that stretched all of our tech muscles. I'd love to do it again in the future, it was a blast.


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## EWCguy (Nov 26, 2018)

danTt said:


> How do you normally guard your pit when it's not in use?


DanTt - as with the non-existent fly system, there is no actual pit. The stage is 28" above the house floor and the area demarked on the floor plan that you are likely referring to as the pit (hey, we do too!) contains the first row of seating (removable) along that curved edge. All falls from the stage are limited to that 28".


BillConnerFASTC said:


> When you say flats, I still think of conventional canvas and frame. I doubt these would meet the strength requirements - or even come very close - for a guard at pit edge -but hollywood flats might. May depend on connection.
> 
> I wondered if there was a chance for "bridge" to audience - for entrance, egress, and access to usual toilet rooms. Maybe from the ends of the calier stage area? Just a thought.


Bill, sorry I didn't specify hollywood as the plan for all flats mentioned. Audience could enter, egress, and access usual toilet rooms from the ends of the stage that meet row E of the house. Up the stairs they go to row Q, level with the lobby and the restrooms there!

@TimMc, In terms of accessible entrance, seating, and restrooms, those are addressed by stage access via the scene shop, which is at ground level (albeit downhill from) with one of our parking lots. The restrooms typically reserved for actors are accessible.


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## Jay Ashworth (Nov 26, 2018)

Bill: When you say "fasten the chairs"... would it be enough to fasten them *to each other*? 

Or do they have to be fastened to the deck?

If we ever did this, we'd be doing it with full commercial Wenger platforms, with clamps, toe rails, and clamp-on railings at the back of the top row; that works plenty well enough in our actual blackbox, against the walls, but it also seems fine for the occasional bleachers we build in our rehearsal hall, and I suspect it would be fine on our mainstage, even at the downstage end (we do it upstage pretty regular, too, even with out the rails, but for performers, not audience).


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## BillConnerFASTC (Nov 26, 2018)

I don't think there is a law - code - that requires they be fastened instead of ganged. Based on litigation I know of, I would be very reticent to not fasten them. If ganged, be sure there is no chance - even in an emergency egress such as a fire or active shooter might incite - that a chair could be displaced and fall. If ganged, can the whole row move? Would clamps at the ends be possible?


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## Mr. B (Nov 28, 2018)

We roll the sound shell units down into the house, line them up along the apron to mask off the house . They are free standing and are super easy to move.


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## Jay Ashworth (Dec 2, 2018)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> I don't think there is a law - code - that requires they be fastened instead of ganged. Based on litigation I know of, I would be very reticent to not fasten them. If ganged, be sure there is no chance - even in an emergency egress such as a fire or active shooter might incite - that a chair could be displaced and fall. If ganged, can the whole row move? Would clamps at the ends be possible?


We'd have to gin them up ourselves.

The clamp on railings that go around the seating area, though, are *REALLY* rugged; each ways 50-60lbs and has 4 clamps with 1/4-20 captive bolts. That combined with the gangable seats has always proven good enough in our facility.


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## RonHebbard (Dec 2, 2018)

Jay Ashworth said:


> We'd have to gin them up ourselves.
> 
> The clamp on railings that go around the seating area, though, are *REALLY* rugged; each ways 50-60lbs and has 4 clamps with 1/4-20 captive bolts. That combined with the gangable seats has always proven good enough in our facility.


 *@Jay Ashworth* Not being able to see your facility; your 1/4-20 bolts are sounding a little thin if / when leverage and tear-out forces are considered. If for example, your railings are each pre-fabricated units consisting of welded 1.5" schedule 40 aluminum or iron pipe which lower into rigidly welded sleeves and your 1/4-20 bolts are merely preventing them from lifting up 3 or 4 inches and escaping their sleeves I wouldn't envision any / many concerns. On the other hand, if your 1/4-20 bolts are all you have supporting your railing assemblies both vertically and laterally, my concerns would be stripping, pull through and tear out. I've personally witnessed 5/16-18 bolts anchored into 5/16 3 or 4 prong T-nuts where the T-nuts have been torn clear through a single layer of 3/4" normal plywood. Two layers of 3/4" I may be less concerned with pull-through / tear out. Two layers of 19 mm Baltic birch with laminated solid layers rather than intermediary layers of glued sawdust would likely let me sleep soundly. In my mind's eye, it's all about how it's engineered structurally, interlocked / secured and the forces applied; none of which I'm adequately envisioning from your #25 post. 
Toodleoo! 
Ron Hebbard


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## Jay Ashworth (Dec 17, 2018)

Damnit, I *still* forgot to get a picture of these railings... and I'm off til after Christmas.


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