# Fogger as Disinfectant



## setbldr (May 12, 2020)

My school operations team is asking me if my foggers can be used to disinfect furniture for Covid19 germs, instead of wiping them down. Does anyone have any thoughts on this? I think also, that we'd probably be willing to permenently disable the fogger for future stage fogging purposes in order to be able to serve this purpose also.


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## sk8rsdad (May 12, 2020)

Try this thread from last week



__





Who knew fog juice was so close to disinfectant

I got an email marketing blurb on this. Theatre Effects is now making disinfectant. I say kudos for repurposing and responding and kind of indicative of the resourcefulness of theatre people...



www.controlbooth.com


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## JohnD (May 13, 2020)

I can't seem to find it now, but there was another post about disinfectant use of foggers posted somewhere here. I did find this one:







Information for Antari AG700 and AG800 Disinfection Machines

The Antari AG700 and AG800 are light weight, portable, convenient, and highly functional Disinfection Machines.



event-lighting.com.au


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## rsmentele (May 13, 2020)

Im not so sure that foggers have been approved for use in US yet. I've seen foreign approvals, but not US. 

Also, doesn't list anti-viral capabilities; only anti-bacterial


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## RonHebbard (May 13, 2020)

rsmentele said:


> Im not so sure that foggers have been approved for use in US yet. I've seen foreign approvals, but not US.
> 
> Also, doesn't list anti-viral capabilities; only anti-bacterial


Quoting from the link in post #3: "AG800 can kill most fungi, germs, virus, dust mites and get rid of bad odors effectively. "
Toodleoo! 
Ron Hebbard


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## MNicolai (May 13, 2020)

RonHebbard said:


> Quoting from the link in post #3: "AG800 can kill most fungi, germs, virus, dust mites and get rid of bad odors effectively. "
> Toodleoo!
> Ron Hebbard



Think I'll let someone else be the guinea pig on that. All of their test reports are fungi or bacteria; nothing viral. Even then, only a small handful of tests made. The application they're showing is also a very confined car with a high density. There's no reason to believe it would be effective in a large scale theater where you would be unable to achieve much density at all.

Very little empirical evidence to support their claims and prove this is anything more than snake glycol.

Also worth nothing their foreign presence. Much of their advertising doesn't fall under the FDA regs, and where they are advertising within the US such as on the AirGuard US page on Facebook you can see they're not making any claims it is effective against viruses and only refer to it as an antibacterial solution.

From Creative Stage Lighting's Website -- note they are explicitly saying it is not effective against COVID19:


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## BillConnerFASTC (May 13, 2020)

Just read where they were looking at disinfecting fog tunnels for all air passengers. Thankful I now have time to drive anywhere.


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## Hansentd (May 13, 2020)

Here's hoping they get a formulation that can. It would be solve a lot of issues quickly.
Now we just need to do something about the fire alarm sensors...


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## JimOC_1 (May 14, 2020)

fwiw, the foggers we use at work are great on microbes, viruses, I suppose insects. Sort of like drinking bleach, but for the lungs. The containment and safety protocols are extensive. The rooms we use them in have dedicated air handlers. So sealing off the area has meaning, and they do get sealed off. Our crews are good, but that task is contracted out to folk who do it for a living, with one of our folks on-hand at all times.


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## BillConnerFASTC (May 14, 2020)

Someone asks on NFPA Xchange: "When you are fogging disinfectant against Coronavirus in a restaurant kitchen, do you need to turn off the stove pilots." 

I have not seen clear and from good sources infromation on disinfectant fogging and being effective against COVID-19 (which I learned today is COronaVIrusDisease2019...maybe you all knew)


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## JimOC_1 (May 14, 2020)

I’ve no training or expertise regarding disinfection by fogging.
A few questions do come to mind.
Is it true that Hydrogen Peroxide and Perchloric Acid _peracetic acid_ are the systems used by pharmaceutical companies?
Is it true that only Hydrogen Peroxide leaves no residue? (restaurants correct?)
Is it true Perchloric Acid _peracetic acid_ based systems are hell on electrical/electronics?
Maybe the folks at SteraMist are worth talking to.


I keep thinking about a recent answer to a rigging question. If you need to ask, you need a pro. This may be in the same category.


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## BillConnerFASTC (May 15, 2020)

JimOC_1 said:


> I keep thinking about a recent answer to a rigging question. If you need to ask, you need a pro. This may be in the same category.


For sure!


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## TimMc (May 16, 2020)

JimOC_1 said:


> I’ve no training or expertise regarding disinfection by fogging.
> A few questions do come to mind.
> Is it true that Hydrogen Peroxide and Perchloric Acid _peracetic acid_ are the systems used by pharmaceutical companies?
> Is it true that only Hydrogen Peroxide leaves no residue? (restaurants correct?)
> ...



Peroxide is an oxidizer and in sufficient concentration and wet time, can provide a level of medical sterilization. If you're being pressured to provide this level of 'clean' you're in for a long process to deliver the unattainable-in-a-public-facility, probably, and will find that attempting this level of sterile/sanitary/clean on a routine basis can potentially damage stuff. Likewise, peracetic acid is a form of the acid in vinegar. Yes, it's corrosive. Spraying it on intercom belt packs, headsets, and body pack transmitters is a bad idea.

Most finishes, screen printed legends and layouts on equipment can be damaged by a surprising number of common cleaners, solvents and sanitizers. See below for guidance received from various manufactures. If anyone has received cleaning guidance that is not on the list, please submit it (info on page) for inclusions.

https://practicalshowtechcom.squarespace.com/covid-19 I suggest watching the saved webinar this came from. While broadcast/corp A2-centric, there is a bunch of useful info.

Of particular interest to theatre A2s... some tiny mics (DPA?) cannot tolerate alcohol or other astringent cleaners as it will dry out the plasticizer in the cable jacket.

Now the "I'm not a doctor, infection control specialist, don't play one on TV, etc".... The reason handwashing is effective - soap breaks down the lipid layer of the coronavirus and it comes apart, mechanically. For things that can tolerate direct contact, dishwashing detergent in a normal concentration *may* be enough for some things. 70% isopropyl is effective but will damage some surfaces, markings and cords. Double-quarternary ammonium disinfectants are effective as are phenyl phenol disinfectants. The CDC has a list on their website (I'm happily condensing) of products, the wet time required and other considerations. The double-quat ammonium has potential because you can dilute a concentrate and use test strips to show PPM, use a known wet time, and no offensive odor after it dries. Peroxide in a 6-7% solution will leave no residue other than any material it didn't dissolve, same with isopropyl. I'm not saying any of these will provide any specific level of disinfection, that information exists from disinfectant manufacturers and the CDC, and I'm not making a judgment about what level of sterile/sanitary/clean is necessary or appropriate for any specific situation.


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## techieman33 (May 17, 2020)

We had the lower level of our building treated with SteraMist as part of a mold remediation plan. I never heard actual prices because we weren't the ones paying the bills on it. But was told the machine itself was over $10k and the cost of the chemical used to treat the maybe 20k square feet with 10-12ft ceilings was into the thousands of dollars. That's not including whatever it cost to actually have them apply it. And the area had to be completely clear of people for about half an hour after they were done spraying it. Not the end of the world for a one time use. But for daily use the costs could get out of control quickly. That's of course if you can even get the product. I'm sure it's in incredibly high demand right now. If you want to pursue it though I would start by talking with companies local to you that deal with mold, fire, and flood damage.


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## James Suit (May 20, 2020)

There are also UV-C products that wouldn’t kill your fog machine, and won’t leave residue on equipment, fixtures, and surfaces. May be worth a look: https://www.luxibel.com/en/products/uvc-systems

ACT Lighting is the distributor in the US and Canada.


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## Gobokat (May 25, 2020)

Hey gang,
While I am not a doctor, and have never played one on TV let me just point out a couple things about the technologies that we're talking about:
1) UV-C light in any form damages organic material. That's why it's a great disinfectant in a closed environment, you do not want to use this in an environment where bare skin or direct viewing happens.
2) foggers - from what I know heating disinfectants breaks down the disinfecting molecule. So what I suspect is these examples of "foggers" are more akin to the agricultural foggers I used as a young farm hand which are actually atomizers (think DF-50) and not vaporizers (think every other non-cracked oil hazer/fogger on the market.)

Please, when evaluating these technologies read the MSDS and white papers. When you're playing with public health you really don't want to rely on "removes most" or "99%". If we're (public venues) responsible for any corona bounce back we can kiss our audiences good bye for a lot longer.


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## JohnD (May 28, 2020)

There is a country music festival scheduled for early July in Wisconsin.
PSW Thread.
Here is their Safety Plan
Notice point # 20. "Use fogging sanitizer to sanitize large areas such as shower buildings, bathrooms, bar and backstage based on Health Department recommendations"

So, I wonder what knowledge the Health Department staff will have about this? Are there any tested and proven fogging sanitizers available in the US yet?

Oh yeah, the safety plan (at least to me) sure has a lot of wiggle room, like they were just quickly checking off bullet points. One example "We will provide a mask for staff and volunteers".


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## rsmentele (May 28, 2020)

Yea, it's also Wisconsin.... When our supreme court rescinded the governor's stay-at-home orders, all the rules for planned reopening went out the window.... It's a bit like the wild west here. I would not use any 'safety plans' created in this state as a model for anyone else's....


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## BillConnerFASTC (May 28, 2020)

JohnD said:


> Are there any tested and proven fogging sanitizers available in the US yet?











Hydrolyte Excelyte Sars Cov 2 EPA Approved Disinfectant 4 Gallons




www.netzerotools.com





?? maybe?


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## BillConnerFASTC (May 28, 2020)

Reopening seems to be more about not overwhelming the medical system and satisfying people, and less about deaths from the virus.

PS I am reading an increasing number of articles and reports on research that show the virus on surfaces is a a low risk. The fact that it may survive on some surfaces up to daysis irrelevant to transmission - which seems to be primarily germs from your respiratory tract to another's respiratory tract through the air. Coupled with the increasing likelihood that you may be contagious but asymptomatic for days or even the entire course of your infection - and never know you were infected - makes gatherings like this very risky. But - if we can keep the medical system from being overwhelmed, at least you can be treated.


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## BillConnerFASTC (May 28, 2020)

NYT article on why surface transmission is a very low risk. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/28/...-kong-minneapolis-your-thursday-briefing.html Kind of makes fogging and UV of dubious value.


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## macsound (May 28, 2020)

I live in the SF Bay area and our commuter train service recently sent out this video of them spraying the inside of the train cars. 
I couldn't understand from watching this what they were spraying. Ultimately they want the liquid to touch surfaces, right? There's no point in "cleaning" the air in a train car at the end of the day. They'd be better off just leaving the doors open.
From what I gathered from airlines using "fog machines" is that the atomized liquid (fog) would completely fill the passenger cavity and disenfect the vents and every touchable surface because the volume of fog filled the space. In the BART video, this liquid sprayer doesn't seem to be "touching" much of anything.


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## JohnD (May 29, 2020)

Just an update but the Wisconsin festival is off till next year.







Hodag Country Festival postponed until 2021

According to a post on the festival’s Facecbook page, the organizers have decided to postpone the festival until July 2021.



www.wsaw.com


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## MNicolai (May 29, 2020)

@JohnD Hodag was an interesting saga to follow. They were given 25 conditions for their permit approval but they seemed kind of wishy washy to me. They said they would provide masks to volunteers/employees -- but no indication they would be required to wear. They were going to encourage festivalgoers to bring their own masks and would provide masks to anyone who didn't have one -- but again, no requirement to wear. They were going to limit crowd size to...16,0000...

The mask thing always seemed like futile -- the people who actually would've worn masks would've been handling them and taking them off regularly to drink and eat, likely contaminating their hands after touching their mask and face. Simply no way a music festival like that can be done safely right now, and most of the top acts probably would've backed out anyway.


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## Gobokat (Jun 1, 2020)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> Hydrolyte Excelyte Sars Cov 2 EPA Approved Disinfectant 4 Gallons
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes, this is getting to the right type of product - but again - cold atomizing foggers for application. Also from the people in the cleaning industry I've been talking to this is a 3 step process 1) fog until surfaces are damp, 2) wipe clean, 3) fog to dampness again and allow to dry before contact.
So, this is a process, not just turn the fogger on until you can't see and call it done.


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## Malabaristo (Jun 1, 2020)

Gobokat said:


> Yes, this is getting to the right type of product - but again - cold atomizing foggers for application. Also from the people in the cleaning industry I've been talking to this is a 3 step process 1) fog until surfaces are damp, 2) wipe clean, 3) fog to dampness again and allow to dry before contact.
> So, this is a process, not just turn the fogger on until you can't see and call it done.



The brochure says for surface disinfection you just need to apply enough to keep it wet for at least two minutes, then let it air dry. However, if the surface is soiled, then it does need to be cleaned first before it can be sanitized. It sounds like your cleaner friends are just describing an approach of using the same chemical as both cleaner and disinfectant. The BART video does not appear to show an effective technique unless they're using something very different from this product.


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## JohnD (Jun 1, 2020)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> Hydrolyte Excelyte Sars Cov 2 EPA Approved Disinfectant 4 Gallons
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Whoa, small print department, it only has a 30 day shelf life!


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## RonHebbard (Jun 1, 2020)

JohnD said:


> Whoa, small print department, it only has a 30 day shelf life!


Then don't store it on a shelf, perhaps it lasts longer stored at floor level? Warped minds want to know. 
Toodleoo! 
Ron Hebbard


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## Kristi R-C (Jun 3, 2020)

JohnD said:


> There is a country music festival scheduled for early July in Wisconsin.
> PSW Thread.
> Here is their Safety Plan
> Notice point # 20. "Use fogging sanitizer to sanitize large areas such as shower buildings, bathrooms, bar and backstage based on Health Department recommendations"
> ...



The Festival this was for was approved by the local county health officers then cancelled the next day. 

I suspect it was generated by the producers.


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## ccannkilO (Feb 18, 2022)

It is best to use alcohol. Among antiseptics, ethyl alcohol comes first. It is worth remembering that operating rooms are treated with it - and immediately, the confidence in this disinfectant increases. You can use 70% alcohol for surface treatment. But a 90% concentration will be ineffective. This mixture is too strong and destroys the cell membrane instantly, but does not have time to get to the virus itself due to the lack of water in the composition. The guys at <removed>, a cleaning company, gave me the idea. I thought the higher the degree, the better.


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## JimOC_1 (Feb 18, 2022)

I’ve been taught 70% is best, but suspect 90% gets a most of them. Personally I like something 4 – 5% EtOH in a dark amber :-}


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## danTt (Feb 19, 2022)

ccannkilO said:


> It is best to use alcohol. Among antiseptics, ethyl alcohol comes first. It is worth remembering that operating rooms are treated with it - and immediately, the confidence in this disinfectant increases. You can use 70% alcohol for surface treatment. But a 90% concentration will be ineffective. This mixture is too strong and destroys the cell membrane instantly, but does not have time to get to the virus itself due to the lack of water in the composition. The guys at <removed>, a cleaning company, gave me the idea. I thought the higher the degree, the better.


The longer the last two years have gone on, the more obvious its become that fogging to prevent covid is theater


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## gastonkilby (Feb 20, 2022)

ccannkilO said:


> It is best to use alcohol. Among antiseptics, ethyl alcohol comes first. It is worth remembering that operating rooms are treated with it - and immediately, the confidence in this disinfectant increases. You can use 70% alcohol for surface treatment. But a 90% concentration will be ineffective. This mixture is too strong and destroys the cell membrane instantly, but does not have time to get to the virus itself due to the lack of water in the composition. The guys at emop.co.uk, a cleaning company, gave me the idea. I thought the higher the degree, the better.


oh this whole covid thing is freaking me out
why people don't see that we have much more important things to care about???


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## TimMc (Feb 21, 2022)

gastonkilby said:


> oh this whole covid thing is freaking me out
> why people don't see that we have much more important things to care about???


Public heath, my personal health and safety at work, and the health and safety of others in the work place ARE priority things to care about.

As a person who has lost 12 friends or professional acquaintances to SARS-CoV-2 (and 2 dozen more with "long Covid") I'm not easily convinced to dismiss this virus or the disease process it causes.


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## RickR (Feb 22, 2022)

When all this started we were concerned with virus contamination of surfaces. We now know that very few infections start that way and that aerial transmission is primary.

So I wonder, would working in a proper haze do any good? Or to put it another way. At what density does the haze absorb enough virus to make a medical difference?


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## TimMc (Feb 22, 2022)

RickR said:


> When all this started we were concerned with virus contamination of surfaces. We now know that very few infections start that way and that aerial transmission is primary.
> 
> So I wonder, would working in a proper haze do any good? Or to put it another way. At what density does the haze absorb enough virus to make a medical difference?


Agreed. It became clear by midsummer 2020 that SARS-CoV-2 was a respiratory virus with little documented (almost none) fomite transmission. My earlier post was to not be dismissive of this virus, not to support sanitizing foggers.


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