# Storefront Theatres



## sully151 (Oct 27, 2010)

*Storefront Theatres (New question posted below)*

Does anyone here work in or run storefront theatres? I have read so many posts about multi million dollar build outs and 700 seat houses that it makes me wonder.

I have worked in a lot of storefronts in CA. (Some offering Equity G.A. pay) that couldn't have been built for that kind of cash.

I work at a pretty highly acclaimed Regional theatre that may have 700 seats in all their spaces combined.

The reason I ask is, I am in the process of obtaining a storefront space and knowing that there are limitations to this type of space, do any of you have any words of wisdom about what has worked for you in the past and what to stay clear of in build out?

This will be a house of 85 seats or less and in a building that is 3500 sq ft total.


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## Van (Oct 27, 2010)

Double check all the zoning restrictions and "building use" restrictions. In California you are going to have even more stringent Seismic issues than we have in Portland and we have occupancy issues because of that. One of the most common issues is with power supply, make sure you have more than enough, and make sure any contractor working with you on your remodel understands what you are doing and understands the demands of Theater. HVAC is ALWAYS a problem with converted spaces. Make sure your HVAC guys understand that when you have a show going you not only have 85 people in the seats but another 10 onstage and then you have 60, 575 watt heaters burning in the ceiling space. For some reason HVAC guys never take that into consideration.
Make sure you have adequateacess to the space for loading scenery in and out. Think real hard about your electrical distro scheme < see the current about extension cords in a commercial building> Are you putting in a grid ? Using Pipe stand scattered about? Is the electrical inspector going to shut you down middleof you first show ? 
85 seats is a decent size, but you're gonna kick yourself later for not having planned for more. Anything under 99 gets you a great cut-rate deal from Equity. 
Those are some that I've run across, and I've worked-on, built, helped out in dozens of converted/found.stor front spaces. I'll try to think up a few more.


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## jonliles (Oct 27, 2010)

I think Van picks up the major points about the performance space. You will also need to take into consideration the power (and water) needs for Bathrooms for audience & actors/crew, dressing rooms, offices, the booth, and concessions (Big Fridges and coffe potts need lots of juice). How are you going to hang a grid? Straight from the ceiling or supported by a truss sytem? How are you going to configure the space? Fixed seating (requires fireprotection under the platforms) or reconfigurable? Build out costs BIG BUCKS!

Be aware of the limitations of your space. Is it considered historic? That will limited the modifications you can do to the space. When you negotiate the space, write everything down, make sure it is in the rental agreement. Do everything you can to make your landlord the best friend of the theatre and be a model tennant. 

I have worked with a few theatres that are reclaimed storefronts. They've all been fun, but they all have their challenges. Be sure to go in with your eyes wide open.

Break a leg!


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## sully151 (Oct 27, 2010)

Thanks guys,

My biggest concern, Except for the $$$, is power and HVAC. I have worked in a theatre where the AC was terrible and LOUD. It had to be powered on high for a few hours before curtain, shut off for act one, blasted during intermission, and shut off again for act two. I vowed never to let that happen in my space if it could be reasonably prevented.

We are in an odd situation. We have been around for a couple of years and renting high school stages. This past Summer, we did an outdoor show and, apparently, all the right people came since we have a former mayor and still a big player in the city, the city planner, the head of economic development and the president of the Cultural arts committee working to get us a space.

Part of the attraction is, we will be the only theatre within 5 cities and close to 500,000 residents within a 10 mile radius. Not only will we perform shows, but will be the only place to offer classes specifically focused on theatre arts.

The space that is being considered is zoned for entertainment, less than 15 years old and the center where it is located is undergoing major revitalization and trying to become a more upscale, family friendly destination.

Our current plan is to hang a grid into the ceiling, fixed seating, and masonite type stage floor, but this can and may all change in an instant. 

One of the reasons we are sitting at the 75-85 seat range is we would rather have fewer seats empty or, in a dream world, need to add shows then go larger and have more empty seats. Sadly, unless rules have changed the AEA 99 seat rule does not apply to Orange County CA so we will have to do Guest Artist contracts at some point when we use union players. I didn't know Portland had that rule. I always thought it was only L.A. and maybe N.Y.

I look forward to more advice and info.


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## Van (Oct 27, 2010)

Yeah we have several nice rules in effect in Portland, a city wide 'Umbrella' is just one thing we've got going for us. It Sounds like you have a great situation going for you, similar to "Broadway Rose", a theater group in Tigard < a suburb of Portland>. They recently built their own performance space. but it only took them 10 years of perfoming in the local High School to get there. 
It's sounds like you have already thought of a lot of things going in to this project. Just some other warnings that you may or may not have thought of already.
Grids are incredibly expensive, and they are that way for a reason " Liability" and Experience. Do Not be lulled into thinking any old construction contractor can do it. Because of the way Our building is built we did not need to sprinkle under our seating but as Jon pointed out many jurisdictions will require a fire supression system for under seating structures. There are system which will pass muster in most jurisdctions that are not " sprinkler" systems. Be sure to hae your Fire / Safety guy really do his homework and don't buy a bill of goods that immediatly requires you re-plumb the entire building. 
If it is a concrete slab floor, consider laying a sprung floor as opposed to just a layer of plywood and Masonite. Your actors and dancers backs' and feet will thank you as will you Master carpenter who needs to figure out how to screw down that staircase...
Don't hesitate to Keep asking questions. There are several of us who have recently built facilities, there are a couple of threads simply dedicated to their entire build process. Keep us informed and let us know how it goes.


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## jonliles (Oct 28, 2010)

One advantage you will have with the smaller venue is wattage. You won't need the 750W or > lamps. Shorter throws, less lumen generation need, therefore less heat created. I know it is early in your process,but this is one of those situations I would look at LED wash lights - not for key & fill, but tops and maybe cyc's - I like the ETC Fire & Ice lines and the Selador lines. They are expensive in the upfront, but think of the power and labor you will save in the long run.

AC's for those type of spaces are loud - especially the air handlers. If you can get the funding, I would investigate a more efficient quieter system.

Check out your ceiling height. Access to the grid is always interesting in found spaces. We used a 15 foot fixed trim height and could use a rather normal 12 ft A-frame ladder. The actual ceiling was still another 10 feet up (floor to ceiling 25ft). It did make for some interesting throws.

As more thoughts keep coming to mind, I will keep adding detail. Watch out for sound quality. A 3500 sqft space has an awful lot of hard reflective surface areas. 85 people won't absorb that much reflection. You'll need to investigate accoustical treatments for sound reflections The only time we used sound reinforcement was when we had an orchestra/band. Even then is was only to put the band back into monitors for the actors to be able to hear the band. In one space we never used mic's; in another space, we used mic's for 2 shows.


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## museav (Oct 28, 2010)

Similar to Van's great post, you are likely going to run into to budget conflicts between quality issues, which are discretionary, and code compliance, which is not. You are likely dramatically changing the use of the space and chances are it was never designed for your intended use, thus you may end up having to address everything from the number of toilets to exiting and life safety issues to ADA compliance. And that's in addition to any changes to the structural, electrical, mechanical and plumbing systems that may be required.

A common oversight is that often the construction materials and methods used in residential construction differ from those use or allowed in commercial construction. I would guess that the performance space would be considered a 'public assembly space' and that is going to impact everything from the finish materials you can use (flame and smoke spread resistance) to having to provide an Assistive Listening System or ALS if any sound system is used (ADA compliance). Remember that a home improvement center is exactly that, a "home" improvement center, and not everything sold there is appropriate for use in a commercial or public space.

Another consideration in some cases is sound isolation. What is adjacent to your space and might those spaces be potential noise sources or sensitive to any noise you generate? Might you need to think about deliveries being made to an adjacent space during a performance or anything like that?

As far as HVAC, you are often dealing with packaged rooftop units and depending on where they are located, the structural spans, the duct routing, etc., you may be limited in what can be done without significant investment or even starting from scratch. You may also want to think early on about zoned systems or the ability to heat and cool specific areas independent of other areas. Of course you may be lucky and find that the prior use left you in a situation that is easy to adapt to your use.

The overriding factor is that the space has to be habitable before anything else. The basic venue design and tech system planning and design should occur in parallel in order to optimize each, but try to avoid the common trap of getting some firm vision in your mind of the phsycial space and systems before all the actual factors have been considered. Maintaining a general vision throughout is critical but don't get locked into specifics early on. Let yourself be amazed by what you never envisioned but end up with rather than disappointed by what you envisioned and didn't get.


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## shiben (Oct 28, 2010)

jonliles said:


> Check out your ceiling height. Access to the grid is always interesting in found spaces. We used a 15 foot fixed trim height and could use a rather normal 12 ft A-frame ladder. The actual ceiling was still another 10 feet up (floor to ceiling 25ft). It did make for some interesting throws.


 
We have a 16'-8 3/4" grid height in our black box. It works fine for the majority of our work, and something like 15-16' is probably sufficiant. Especially with a tiny space, you wont need such a high grid. We have something like 250 seats installed in our black box (3/4 thrust) right now, and the angles for everyone are plenty sufficiant.


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## Chris15 (Oct 30, 2010)

museav said:


> A common oversight is that often the construction materials and methods used in commercial construction differ from those use or allowed in commercial construction.



Had you intended a different meaning to what came out?


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## museav (Oct 30, 2010)

Chris15 said:


> Had you intended a different meaning to what came out?


Read before posting..read before posting...

Thanks Chris! Yes, what I meant to say was that the materials and methods used in residential construction often differ from those used or allowed in commercial construction. It's corrected now.


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## tjrobb (Nov 2, 2010)

/slightly ot/
We had a vaguely related issue with the post-flood remodel. When we took over a disused basement printing area we converted a large chunk of the space into a studio theatre. Listed in no real order are some of the good and bad things I have noticed about the space.

The pipe grid only really covers the main playing space. Now we can't move the acting area, and "long and low" shots are impossible.
This is being corrected, but they forgot to label one of our fire exits which is currently limiting us to 50 people in the space instead of the 122 we should be able to fit in there.
We have no way to create wing storage, nor do we have acceptable out-of-space storage (ie, a closet). However, we do have excellent access to a Green room and Makeup / Dressing area.
The HVAC is quiet-ish. It leaks a bit causing the noise, but that is being fixed. Note that this is a VAV system so the fan is actually 60' away in a mechanical room.
The dimmer racks are in another room with a pass-through for mult's. This allows us to add / remove circuits as we need, and avoids dimmer noise. However, they only gave us 60A 3-p for the space, severely limiting how many lights we can run (it is enough for our 30x50 space, though).
As noted in posts above, our grid is too low. The space was built in 1928, so I can live with the 10' clear.
The acoustics were horrible. Until we hung our old borders (don't ask) the place echoed like a cave. Permanent ceiling deadening is ideal but check fire codes.

/end ot/

The above may or may not help, but I thought I might give you an idea of what we have gone through.


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## sully151 (Nov 2, 2010)

Thanks again everyone. This is giving us a lot to think about and reaffirming some of my thoughts.

I will keep everyone updated as things progress.

Just found the city decided to defer us on a community grant because we don't have a permanent space yet. Kinda sucks since the money was going to build out costs.


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## ruinexplorer (Nov 5, 2010)

You might want to consider picking up one of gafftaper's favorite books: Technical Theater for Non-Technical People. It discusses quite a bit about non-traditional theater spaces, how to find them, and how to develop them.


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## derekleffew (Nov 5, 2010)

Another good, relevant book, but may be a little dated (last published in 1993):
Amazon.com: Will It Make a Theatre? Find, Renovate, & Finance the Non-Traditional Performance Space (9781879903029): Eldon Elder: Books: Reviews, Prices & more

See also this site: So You Want To Open a Theater? | About Us | DCA Theater - Chicago Dept. of Cultural Affairs . Although Chicago-specific, lots of good resources.


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## Les (Nov 5, 2010)

derekleffew said:


> Another good, relevant book, but may be a little dated (last published in 1993):
> Amazon.com: Will It Make a Theatre? Find, Renovate, & Finance the Non-Traditional Performance Space (9781879903029): Eldon Elder: Books: Reviews, Prices & more



I borrowed this book from a friend, and though it is a little dated, it gives a useful, practical look in to what it takes to renovate a "found space". It includes info on how many square feet the lobby should be in relation to audience size, how to determine the sizes of restrooms (and similar) facilities you will need, and even how many square feet to allow per seat in the house -- tips on legroom and side-to-side space as well. Very useful resource in preliminary planning and "scouting out" a potential location!


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## museav (Nov 6, 2010)

Les said:


> I borrowed this book from a friend, and though it is a little dated, it gives a useful, practical look in to what it takes to renovate a "found space". It includes info on how many square feet the lobby should be in relation to audience size, how to determine the sizes of restrooms (and similar) facilities you will need, and even how many square feet to allow per seat in the house -- tips on legroom and side-to-side space as well. Very useful resource in preliminary planning and "scouting out" a potential location!


Probably still very useful information, but several of the issues noted seem building code related and may not only have changed in 17 years but may also vary from one jurisdiction to another. In other words probably just as Les noted, useful in preliminary planning but some aspects will need to be verified, and likely modified, in later planning.


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## Les (Nov 6, 2010)

museav said:


> Probably still very useful information, but several of the issues noted seem building code related and may not only have changed in 17 years but may also vary from one jurisdiction to another. In other words probably just as Les noted, useful in preliminary planning but some aspects will need to be verified, and likely modified, in later planning.


 
Very true. In fact, I believe the book has several "consult local codes" disclaimers as well. I wouldn't design a space based on that book, but I feel like it would at least give you an idea of what will work in a space and what will not.


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## sully151 (Dec 2, 2010)

Update questions.

We are looking at a space tomorrow. Small, only 1700 sq ft. There is an outdoor covered courtyard area that will work for a lobby type area. (so Cal winters are pretty tame) and bathrooms in the courtyard so we don't really need more than one in the space.

This leaves most of the sq. footage for playing space and small dressing rooms. An off site storage facility will have to be rented for everything that is not being used in the current run.

Not ideal, we wanted larger, but this may be close to free and is in an ideal area.

I figure we might be able to do 50-60 seats. 

My guess is 6 sq feet per seat 3x2, does this sound right?

My next question is, is there something I should really be looking for as we look at the space (aside from what was mentioned above) something that you would look at and say "Nope this won't work"?

There is a 2600 sq ft space in the same area that would be more ideal, but at this point we are pawns in a game of chess between the city that wants us and the multi millionaire that owns the complex that wants something from the city.


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## tjrobb (Dec 2, 2010)

A few things, code is 7sf/person for non-seating areas, otherwise A) the seats MUST be tied to each other and to the floor and B) the capacity equals the number of seats.
Second, if you are planning to have anything for a FOH batten you need to make sure that there is a place to rig from (I-beams, joists, etc) and that you won't affect the fire rating of the ceiling/floor/roof when you attach to said structure.
Third, power. When we did our temporary space, we had to knock an 8" hole in our exterior wall to run cables 200' from a new exterior disconnect, just for the dimmers. Also, the power company had to drop a second neutral from the transformer for the dimmers. CHECK WITH THE POWER COMPANY. Due to harmonics, existing loads, etc., you may be severely limited as to how much you can pull from the grid.
Lastly, egress. Check with your local fire marshal as to location, number, and marking of exits. I could help, but local codes vary too much.

Good Luck!


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## museav (Dec 3, 2010)

sully151 said:


> There is an outdoor covered courtyard area that will work for a lobby type area. (so Cal winters are pretty tame) and bathrooms in the courtyard so we don't really need more than one in the space.


How many bathrooms you need will likely be determined by the applicable building codes and ordinances and based on the rated occupancy. Factors such as handicap accessible facilities will probably come up. As far as using bathrooms that have to be accessed by exiting the building proper, I'm not sure about that. Also, do you plan on having a box office that is open outside of performance hours and if so, how are people able to access it while keeping the rest of the space secure?


sully151 said:


> An off site storage facility will have to be rented for everything that is not being used in the current run.


You'll still probably want storage for everything in the current production as well as some equipment (spare fixtures, lamps, cables, mics and stand, etc.) along with some basic maintenance items and tools. And keep in mind that you're also the janitor, maintenance staff, etc. for the entire space so don't forget space for that function.


sully151 said:


> My guess is 6 sq feet per seat 3x2, does this sound right?


That depends upon whether you are considering the actual space for a seat or the square foot allowance per patron.


sully151 said:


> My next question is, is there something I should really be looking for as we look at the space (aside from what was mentioned above) something that you would look at and say "Nope this won't work"?


What was the space previously? If it had a similar use or even similar heating, cooling and electrical loads requirements then adapting the space may be easier and less costly than if the previous use entailed significantly different requirements. For example, if the space was an office with 10 people in it or partially a warehouse space or something like that then cooling and electrical systems that were based on that use may be insufficient for your use.

From a practical perspective, you might want to look at things like parking, the other businesses around you and so on. Are there other businesses to draw people, say maybe dinner at a restaurant in the same complex and then a show? Will they have to pay for parking, thus effectively increasing the cost of a show? Will patrons feel safe coming there? Do you have good visibility and/or an option for good signage?

I suggest not agreeing to anything or signing a lease until you can have appropriate parties survey the existing space. I recently got involved in a project where someone planning to construct recording and photography studio spaces purchased a building before getting input from an Architect, Engineers or Consultants only to then get some of those parties involved and be told that his best bet was to either try to sell the building and find a different space or to find a much larger construction budget than planned.


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## shakescar (Jan 15, 2014)

The Kindle edition Of Technical Theatre for Nontechnical people is $3.49 can't beat it.


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## Timothy A. Samuelson (Apr 19, 2014)

Glad to see this thread! I'm currently on a similar project. Most every theatre in my career has been a storefront. The one we are moving out of was absolutely horrendous. ONE toilet in the very back, through the dressing rooms. Tiny stage, no wings, no storage, no AC, three battens spanning the width of the building attached with flanges at the walls and a chain to the ceiling about midway. 62 seats. It was a nightmare. The space we are moving into is much larger. about 6x larger. I have 4 bathrooms, three seats each. a full scene shop, plenty of storage, office space, and 150 seats. The power issues seemed to come out perfect for us. Prior to us occupying the building, it was a office printing company. There is more power in the building than I know what to do with. Including a Three Phase Disconnect and High Leg routed directly to where my racks are going to be. A plus side with the city was that we have a non-profit that will be using the space. Saving Live Arkansas Music. The city officials have actually come out of their way to ask what they can do to help us out. Good luck on getting your space up and running. PM me if I can help since it seems I'm a few weeks ahead of you on the exact same project. Might even have some equipment for you!


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