# Creating 3D Lightning Bolt Effect



## ebutt13 (May 25, 2013)

Hi,

I'm working on a production which involves having a tree struck by lightning and crashing to the ground. Currently, we've designed the mechanism for making the tree split (including pyro placed behind it for the spark), however we're still spinning ideas for how to achieve the lightning bolt effect.
An initial suggestion was to project a lightning bolt gobo (using a strobe) onto the cyclorama behind the tree. However, the director wants the audience to actually see the bolt appear in thin air.

My proposal is to have a scrim placed directly behind the tree and then project onto it using either a gobo or a standard HD projector. This, in theory, would create a sense of depth between the tree, lightning bolt and cyclorama (which will be lit with a dark blue from the bottom).

The only problem is that we dont want the lightning pattern to duplicate on the cyclorama. Does anybody know of way to avoid this problem? Perhaps the effect could be projected from an angle...?

Also, what colour should we use for the scrim? Will the strobed gobo look realistic on the scrim?
There will be other trees placed in front, creating a forest setting.

Many Thanks,

Ed


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## ruinexplorer (May 25, 2013)

Honestly, being that near an actual lightning bolt, you would only see a bright light, not the bolt itself. If you must project the image of a lightning bolt, keep your angle steep, thus burying the duplicate image much lower which would likely be blocked by the tree itself. 

I assume that you have a licensed pyro technician who will be doing the spark. Especially since you are considering having a scrim so close to the effect.


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## ebutt13 (May 26, 2013)

Thanks for your reply!
We do have a licensed pyro technician who will be handling the effect.

Why wouldn't we see the bolt itself though? Should we opt for a dark-grey scrim instead?


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## Joshualangman (May 26, 2013)

I think ruinexplorer meant that realistically, if you were actually standing near a tree as it was hit by lightning you would not see a jagged bolt of electricity, only a very bright flash of light. You would have to be miles away to see the shape of the bolt.


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## ruinexplorer (May 27, 2013)

Yes, that is what I meant. I once had a tree across from my house struck by lightning. I was actually quite surprised at just how bright and loud it was to be so close to a strike.


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## tyler.martin (May 27, 2013)

If you are going for the steep angle, your projector is going to have to be quite high as well. Are you in a venue where you can put the projector right onto a fly pipe? Haze may also be effective if you are trying to make a 3Dish image.


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## ebutt13 (May 27, 2013)

@ruinexplorer I see. However, I'm sure most audience members won't be aware of this and nothing implies lightning striking a tree more than a huge lightning bolt across the stage. It would also make for a cool effect.

We do have a large fly space so that shouldn't be a problem. Do you think projecting on black will be a concern? - we want the bolt to be as bright as possible.
Also, do you think a strobe gobo would be more or less effective than a projector effect?

Thanks


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## lwinters630 (May 27, 2013)

Could a clear neon tube be placed on the trunk of the tree, then strobe it. Add a series of split second cues- black out, strobe, flash\chase other bright cyc lights.


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## ebutt13 (May 27, 2013)

The thing is, we want to see the bolt striking the tree, so it would probably have to be projected onto the scrim.


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## Joshualangman (May 30, 2013)

You could also try three (or four, or five) instruments with different lighting gobos focused at the same place on the cyc. Flash them rapidly and maybe you can make it look like the lightning is moving from the sky to the tree — a kind of stop motion effect. Unless you've got a really bright projector this will probably give you a better effect.


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## ebutt13 (May 30, 2013)

Yeah, I had that idea. I could even then design a lightning effect in After Effects and project it onto the tree. It might make the lightning look less static and give some movement to it.


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## gafftaper (May 30, 2013)

Have you discussed it with your Pyro expert? That person may have some ideas. 

I understand what it's like to have a director who wants a specific look, but the idea of seeing the lightning bolt is one that sounds good but in my opinion will not look good. I am yet to see any big professional show physically show lightning because it just looks silly seeing the gobos or projections. Its one of those things that your brain knows what it should look like, and seeing a series of gobos flash across the stage just doesn't look right. My vote would be to do it like the pro's do and rent some Lightning Strikes, which will BLAST the stage with a brief flash of light that looks like the real thing.


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## JChenault (May 30, 2013)

A few thoughts

First. Intensity will be a big problem. Lightening is very bright. Using a video projector is not likely to give you the concentrated lumens you need for this effect. A strobe in a S4 is probably your best bet. Alternatively a discharge lamp moving light with a gobo would also work. Whichever is brighter. 

Laying in haze for the effect is a non starter as you will see the beam from the projection, not the strike in air.

A scrim could work, but a scrim is a poor projection surface. This makes the intensity issue worse.

You might want to consider lighting the scrim from behind in order to avoid spill on the cyc, 

If this strike is one of several in the scene ( instead of a bolt from the blue) you might want to think about doing lightening projections on the cyc, and then a bright flash for the tree strike,


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## ebutt13 (May 30, 2013)

I guess I'll just have to experiment with these different methods. I had considered using a powerful strobe but the director wanted an effect which implied the tree had been struck by lightning. 

I've seen somebody else attempt a similar effect by strobing thin lightning gobos onto the tree itself, followed by a pyro explosion. The effect is quite convincing.


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## ebutt13 (May 30, 2013)

Yeah, I think I'll try using a combination of projections and strobo gobes. The projections for some "fluid" lightning strikes on the tree itself and then the strobes elsewhere.

Are you suggesting strobing the gobo from behind the scrim? Would that work?

Has anybody here ever tried lighting a gobo with a strobe. Does it look realistic?


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## JohnD (May 30, 2013)

A strobe cap on an ERS with a lightning bolt gobo is frequently used.
Also, if you ever wanted an excuse to rent in a Sharpy or three, this would be a great time, but no doubt expensive. With haze added, I would think a quick flash from one or more closely clustered Sharpies, (or perhaps a tight cluster of pin spots or ACL's) would give a very believable shaft of lightning hitting the tree.


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## MarshallPope (May 30, 2013)

If haze/smoke is an option, have you considered just having the brightest, tightest beam you can get shining straight down onto the tree? Like others have said, seeing a lightning strike from any somewhat close range just looks like a bright white vertical beam.

Edit - Apparently I didn't even notice JohnD's post immediately above mine.


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## lwinters630 (May 31, 2013)

gafftaper said:


> do it like the pro's do and rent some Lightning Strikes, which will BLAST the stage with a brief flash of light that looks like the real thing.



Keep in mind the term "relative darkness" when lighting strikes, everything looks like it disappears. However, actually your eye is semi blinded and drawn to the brightest area of the stage.

Perhaps a two stage look, one that rips a super bright split second flash lighing up the entire up stage area (maybe the CYC) using vivid r or Lightning Strikes. That will make everything mid to down stage "appear" dark. Then in that moment, hidden in the tree, a Lightning Strikes blasts at the audience blinding them for a split second. It is so fast that they will believe they "saw" lighting strike the tree.

Theatre is not having to have them see it, but only believe they did!


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## ebutt13 (May 31, 2013)

But how would I hide the strobe in the tree?
I could place it inside the tree and then cover it with some scrim fabric, painted to match the rest of the tree.


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## lwinters630 (May 31, 2013)

That is correct,with scrim.


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## lwinters630 (Jun 1, 2013)

I just Google lightning bolt on stage. Much to my amazement it stated: The best way to produce a convincing illusion of lightning on stage is not to use an illusion at all, but to use the real thing: a real bolt of lightning.

Apparently this is actually done on stage and various other venues. Needless to say I won't link it or even describe it because it is using millions of volts and goes on to state that if it strays and hits you, you will be dead because it is actual lightning.

Scary!


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## Les (Jun 1, 2013)

lwinters630 said:


> Apparently this is actually done on stage and various other venues. Needless to say I won't link it or even describe it because it is using millions of volts and goes on to state that if it strays and hits you, you will be dead because it is actual lightning.



It's probably done using a coil named after a certain Serbian-American physicist. If so, it's a _mostly_ high frequency, so while a stray bolt _may_ not kill you, you will get stunned pretty badly at best!

Now the transformers and capacitors that are responsible for powering them on the other hand won't hesitate to deliver a lethal shock.


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## lwinters630 (Jun 1, 2013)

Les said:


> a certain Serbian-American physicist. .



The article said it was not a tesla coil.


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## ebutt13 (Jun 1, 2013)

I found the same link. I was going to mention it but didn't want to be scorned by the health and safety police who patrol this forum.
I could always try it...


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## Amiers (Jun 1, 2013)

I saw that when I first read the post, I was going to suggest it but.... I decided not to. There are 3 methods one did talk about coils other two about wires


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## garyvp (Mar 4, 2015)

I built a tesla coil for a production of Frankenstein. Not sure what else will throw that kind of spark. It was great fun to build and threw about a two ft bolt - great effect during 'that scene'. However, the setup requires a lot of protection for people and equipment - especially digital dimmer equipment - i fried one pack's mother board. To build one requires hard to find parts, lots of labor, and a lot of arcane electrical knowledge. And even if you buy or rent one, they are very dangerous! I had to be at every performance.


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## dianna holland (Mar 25, 2016)

ebutt13 said:


> Hi,
> 
> I'm working on a production which involves having a tree struck by lightning and crashing to the ground. Currently, we've designed the mechanism for making the tree split (including pyro placed behind it for the spark), however we're still spinning ideas for how to achieve the lightning bolt effect.
> An initial suggestion was to project a lightning bolt gobo (using a strobe) onto the cyclorama behind the tree. However, the director wants the audience to actually see the bolt appear in thin air.
> ...


 



Hi I would just like to know if you just so happen to have foreseen this vision through because I could really use your help


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## malsackj (Mar 25, 2016)

Another option if the budget allows is to program a laser effect. 

http://www.shutterstock.com/s/laser+light/search-vectors.html

Add in the over sized strobe behind the tree with just the edge stiicking out at the level of the strike. 

No experience with this, but offered as a consider this ?


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## malsackj (Mar 25, 2016)

With the Audio a strong powerful high/mid "Crack" followed with a small space, and the Low Frequency "Boom" 

Place the Crack in the speaker close to the Tree location and the Boom in the Sub's Shake the Floor on the Boom
Teh Crack should be sharp and hard like the Snare hit, It provides the ears the location to look. With the Crack is the Strobe flash.


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## Jim Missall (Jan 23, 2020)

I’m not sure if this is still applicable but was thinking of how to create an actual 3D effect on stage, as done by the WWE when the undertaker enters the ring and lightning strikes the 4 corner posts. It use to be gerbs on wires coming down / but now have changed into actual lightning bolts.

To simulate this I was thinking of using side emitting fiber optic cables (like the ones used for lighting up swimming pools) with a few strobe lights illuminating one end. As the strobes flash the light travels down the fiber optic to the tree.The fiber cable is transparent and not really visible on stage and won’t cause a shadow.

The hardest part would be manufacturing a hood that would attach to the front of the strobe light to hold the fiber optic in place and not leak any light when it’s activated.


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## Malabaristo (Jan 27, 2020)

You would need more than a hood... Most conventional strobe lights use physically large lamps and the light they produce is spread out over a large area. The optics of gathering a significant portion of that light and injecting it into fiber are not trivial. Could be interesting to see, though. I wonder if there are any products intended for photography or another market that might be closer to what you need for optics?

Also, for anyone who decides to dig up the old article describing a practical method for lightning: it's worth noting that the writing has a very theoretical tone throughout. While there is some merit to the ideas, I wouldn't assume it's a tested approach. 

Or, maybe it has been tested, and that's the reason the author hasn't provided any updates in the intervening couple of decades...


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## RonHebbard (Jan 27, 2020)

Malabaristo said:


> You would need more than a hood... Most conventional strobe lights use physically large lamps and the light they produce is spread out over a large area. The optics of gathering a significant portion of that light and injecting it into fiber are not trivial. Could be interesting to see, though. I wonder if there are any products intended for photography or another market that might be closer to what you need for optics?
> 
> Also, for anyone who decides to dig up the old article describing a practical method for lightning: it's worth noting that the writing has a very theoretical tone throughout. While there is some merit to the ideas, I wouldn't assume it's a tested approach.
> 
> Or, maybe it has been tested, and that's the reason the author hasn't provided any updates in the intervening couple of decades...


Not 3d but back in the 1970's we managed to retrofit PAR 40-ish strobe lamps into the reflector cavities of three Strand Pattern ( Oooh, my memory's hurting) 263 ellipsoidals. One ellipsoidal projected the upper half of a lightning bolt while the remaining two projected either of two alternate bottom halves. When fired in rapid sequence they were quite effective on the Stratford Festival's main theatre's thrust stage in the days when the audience wrapped around 220 degrees. Imagine the three lamps positioned as high-angled back lights. 

The first three were so effective, they were soon joined by three more for even more fun and merriment. 
Toodleoo! 
Ron Hebbard


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## Amiers (Jan 27, 2020)

I will say what I said back in 2013. Tesla coil is the only way to go.

However holographic film is another way to go. I could ask how it works at work as we specialized in doing this tomorrow if this thread takes off.


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## Jim Missall (Jan 27, 2020)

RonHebbard said:


> Not 3d but back in the 1970's we managed to retrofit PAR 40-ish strobe lamps into the reflector cavities of three Strand Pattern ( Oooh, my memory's hurting) 263 ellipsoidals. One ellipsoidal projected the upper half of a lightning bolt while the remaining two projected either of two alternate bottom halves. When fired in rapid sequence they were quite effective on the Stratford Festival's main theatre's thrust stage in the days when the audience wrapped around 220 degrees. Imagine the three lamps positioned as high-angled back lights.
> 
> The first three were so effective, they were soon joined by three more for even more fun and merriment.
> Toodleoo!
> Ron Hebbard


I thought I’ve seen a S4 strobe conversation kit with a small aperture put into the gate. Of course the effect would have to be timed correctly.


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## Jim Missall (Jan 27, 2020)

Amiers said:


> I will say what I said back in 2013. Tesla coil is the only way to go.
> 
> However holographic film is another way to go. I could ask how it works at work as we specialized in doing this tomorrow if this thread takes off.


I hope this post stays up, I’m planning on opening a Tesla museum at Niagara Falls and would prefer to use the same effect without the dangers of a large coil, but simulating the “lightning” static discharge going around him while seated in a chair without zapping equipment and/or people. Also the sound effect would have to be done with some VHE speaker array drivers to avoid blowing cones.


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## RonHebbard (Jan 27, 2020)

Jim Missall said:


> I thought I’ve seen a S4 strobe conversation kit with a small aperture put into the gate. Of course the effect would have to be timed correctly.


 *@Jim Missall * Stratford's groups of three were fired manually by the LX board operator actuating a horizontal row of three momentary push buttons with his left hand while clicking his "GO" button with his right, the strobe bump buttons fired the strobes as fast a Alec Cooper could fire them. 
Toodleoo! 
Ron Hebbard


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## Jim Missall (Jan 28, 2020)

RonHebbard said:


> *@Jim Missall * Stratford's groups of three were fired manually by the LX board operator actuating a horizontal row of three momentary push buttons with his left hand while clicking his "GO" button with his right, the strobe bump buttons fired the strobes as fast a Alec Cooper could fire them.
> Toodleoo!
> Ron Hebbard


Thanks Ron
I was thinking of something that once GPI triggered would automatically run without any operator intervention. The fixtures would feed fiber optics (top with several subsequent sections stepped in sequence, then a mid, and branched out lower part).


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## RonHebbard (Jan 28, 2020)

Jim Missall said:


> Thanks Ron
> I was thinking of something that once GPI triggered would automatically run without any operator intervention. The fixtures would feed fiber optics (top with several subsequent sections stepped in sequence, then a mid, and branched out lower part).


*@Jim Missall* Tom Fay and TPR Lighting and Fibre Optics were doing basically this in 1999 using six or more synchronized illumintators with a combination of internally rotating twinkle wheels and internally rotating gobo wheels cut to illuminate selected strands of end lit fiber in sequence. 
Toodleoo! 
Ron Hebbard


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## Ben Stiegler (Jan 28, 2020)

Am I really far off to wonder if pixel tape (like from City Theatrical) on the tree could be the second part of the fx? I think it can get pretty bright, even without doubling. They are easy to talk with about wild ideas, and know their stuff well. Let us know what you end up doing ... even post a link to video clip so we can see.


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## RonHebbard (Jan 28, 2020)

lwinters630 said:


> That is correct,with scrim.


Nothing like a good necropost to read and reply to. Possibly the OP's following along from Heaven or Hell, looking down or high o'er head and squinting to see up this far? You can never be certain. 
Toodleoo! 
Ron Hebbard


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## Jim Missall (Jan 28, 2020)

RonHebbard said:


> *@Jim Missall* Tom Fay and TPR Lighting and Fibre Optics were doing basically this in 1999 using six or more synchronized illumintators with a combination of internally rotating twinkle wheels and internally rotating gobo wheels cut to illuminate selected strands of end lit fiber in sequence.
> Toodleoo!
> Ron Hebbard


Thanks, I’m a new member but frequent lurker here. Does Tom still work at TPR or a member here?


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## RonHebbard (Jan 28, 2020)

Jim Missall said:


> Thanks, I’m a new member but frequent lurker here. Does Tom still work at TPR or a member here?


 *@Jim Missall
Per TPR's website*, I believe Tom Fay is currently TPR's President and I'm not aware of him being a member of Dave's Control Booth Forum. 
*Edit*: Link added. https://tprlights.com/
Toodleoo! 
Ron Hebbard


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## egilson1 (Jan 28, 2020)

Jim Missall said:


> I’m not sure if this is still applicable but was thinking of how to create an actual 3D effect on stage, as done by the WWE when the undertaker enters the ring and lightning strikes the 4 corner posts. It use to be gerbs on wires coming down / but now have changed into actual lightning bolts.



I know WWE has used CGI for some of their lightning effects, like when Taker did the lightning to the rig with Kurt Angle. The live audience only sees the pyro "result" and not the bolts. I've still got some friends there and I'll ask.


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## Jim Missall (Jan 28, 2020)

egilson1 said:


> I know WWE has used CGI for some of their lightning effects, like when Taker did the lightning to the rig with Kurt Angle. The live audience only sees the pyro "result" and not the bolts. I've still got some friends there and I'll ask.


Lol I was wondering who was going to catch that after I posted it-some of their CGI looks like props hanging from the ceiling-pretty good video overlays (as you don’t see them live)-&-the “Undertaker’s” lightning is probably produced using CGI

I did email Tom


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