# Open Orch Pit Sign



## tschnuckel (Feb 25, 2020)

I've been charged with having to create a couple safety signs for when the orchestra pit cover is off and someone could fall from the stage. I'm trying to decide if the header on the sign should be Danger or Warning. According to OSHA, Danger is a hazard that _will _cause injury or death if not avoided - reserved for extreme conditions. A Warning is a hazard that _could _cause injury or death if not avoided. It's an 8ft drop ...


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## MNicolai (Feb 25, 2020)

The label on a sign largely doesn't matter in terms of effectiveness at preventing injuries. Bolded text on a yellow background with one word or on a red background with another word is probably not going to make any difference one way or another in terms of who actually pays attention. The best prevention is eliminating the risk. Whether that's a pit net or a temporary net/railing/etc along the edge of the pit.

Incord makes some great products for this application, some of which even come with a DANGER sign already included.







Theatre - InCord Custom Safety Netting

THEATRE THEATRE SAFETY NETTING SOLUTIONS Theatre environments host a variety of fall hazards and dropped-object potential. Maintaining the safety of



incord.com





FWIW, OSHA would generally consider this an "OPEN HOLE" hazard and those signs usually have "DANGER" on them.




Not saying a sign isn't worth anything, but thousands of people every day end up in the ER from things that there were signs or labels instructing them not to do. Never doubt someone's ability to have complete disregard for the environment around them.


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## egilson1 (Feb 25, 2020)

OSHA requires more than a sign. You must mitigate the hazard.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Feb 25, 2020)

egilson1 said:


> OSHA requires more than a sign. You must mitigate the hazard.


And how often do you see that enforced? Practically every stage in America requires "mitigation" along with every orchestra pit and balcony. I applaud the sign. I'm not where I can attach it but I have a graphic I modified. And it's on posts with bases with a strap between them. I'll share drawings asap - but could be Friday.

No darkness - ghost light or other light - and generally educating anyone who comes on stage. I have a couple of signs I have used backstage that simply warn people of possible hazards.

Also big on safety nets in pits.

Is this one a lift or a pit filler?

PS like this;


https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQDpwiwD6b-72ymWEreH1aVplVjokJM7jxSCW-EJMnh0ZSNcp2YIEZevl4&s


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## tschnuckel (Feb 25, 2020)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> And how often do you see that enforced? Practically every stage in America requires "mitigation" along with every orchestra pit and balcony. I applaud the sign. I'm not where I can attach it but I have a graphic I modified. And it's on posts with bases with a strap between them. I'll share drawings asap - but could be Friday.
> 
> No darkness - ghost light or other light - and generally educating anyone who comes on stage. I have a couple of signs I have used backstage that simply warn people of possible hazards.
> 
> ...




It's a pit filler. Honestly the cover is only off once a year for 2 weeks before the musical and the run of the show. Total open time is never more than a month. There are a couple board members who don't see the purpose and have suggested filling it with sand before spending money on the net system. They are the same people who don't understand why choirs need shells and risers ... we all have different problems and making an effort to educate to improve is sometimes the best we can do.


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## RonHebbard (Feb 25, 2020)

tschnuckel said:


> It's a pit filler. Honestly the cover is only off once a year for 2 weeks before the musical and the run of the show. Total open time is never more than a month. There are a couple board members who don't see the purpose and have suggested filling it with sand before spending money on the net system. They are *the same people who don't understand why choirs need shells and risers* ... we all have different problems and making an effort to educate to improve is sometimes the best we can do.


 *@tschnuckel* I suspect we've all seen more than our share of the types: They've all spent many hours in theatres with ~30% in lobbies and ~70% in box or first row seats. They may understand bars but ZERO or less about behind the prosc' and don't even mention the need for multiple truck docks, refrigerated storage, garbage bins, riser, chair and music stand storage. *What, you want lights on the music stands?* 
I'll replace and secure the cap on this worm can and crawl back in my cave. 
Toodleoo! 
Ron Hebbard


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## BillConnerFASTC (Feb 25, 2020)

The net is probably in the $3000-5000 range. Measure and diy. Seems like a small investment. As you may have seen me post here, the Life Safety Code requires a plan to protect people from the fall hazard


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## Jay Ashworth (Feb 25, 2020)

To answer your question: 8ft drop is a fatality, especially if they land on music stands and such: 

DANGER (Will Robinson)


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## dvsDave (Feb 26, 2020)

InCord makes 2 solutions for pits. One is an Orchestra Pit Safety Net, and the other is called Stage Guard and it's a net that goes across the front of the stage to prevent people from falling from the stage to the pit, the Stage Guard is an excellent first step to protect people on stage. The question is the accessibility of the pit from the house.


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## SamSam (Feb 27, 2020)

Mitigation is key. Don't forget about a good old fashioned rope. One Theater I work at has a long, trucking style ratchet strap that is tensioned to the proscenium walls at railing height when the space is unsupervised. Several theaters place stanchions when ever the pit is open/down, but a performance isn't happening.


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## macsound (Feb 27, 2020)

Being one of those people who have never seen a net in front of an open pit, would something like the orange plastic fencing that is used in construction work? It's easily tensioned, comes on a roll and is available at most lumber yards. Could be combined with rope or a ratchet strap so one person could install.


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## TimMc (Feb 27, 2020)

The crass part of me says trespassers SHOULD be injured by their own stupidity. The problem is that people who are supposed to know better, don't pay attention either. They both need to be stopped before they fall off the edge of the stage into the dragon's lair.

I think curare darts with automated target acquisition and firing should be used (think "last 10 minutes of The Andromeda Strain").


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## Jay Ashworth (Feb 27, 2020)

macsound said:


> Being one of those people who have never seen a net in front of an open pit, would something like the orange plastic fencing that is used in construction work? It's easily tensioned, comes on a roll and is available at most lumber yards. Could be combined with rope or a ratchet strap so one person could install.


Combined with a top strap, yeah, I think that's good enough to show you tried. The snow fence will get people's attention and the strap will actually stop them (where the snow fence would just stretch).


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## RonHebbard (Feb 27, 2020)

TimMc said:


> The crass part of me says trespassers SHOULD be injured by their own stupidity. The problem is that people who are supposed to know better, don't pay attention either. They both need to be stopped before they fall off the edge of the stage into the dragon's lair.
> 
> I think curare darts with automated target acquisition and firing should be used (think "last 10 minutes of The Andromeda Strain").


 * @TimMc* Your darts along with surface to air rockets launched by fully paid up AF of M members seated in the pit clutching their Stradrivari (or whatever the plural of Stradivarius equates to) along with all manner of wind and brass instruments in their lips and teeth. 
Ya, *surface to air rocket*s, their working for me! 
Toodleoo *@TimMc* ! 
(Retired Bro') Ron Hebbard


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## teqniqal (Mar 5, 2020)

A sign is just an admission that the problem wasn't solved.
That said, IF you place sign(s), be sure that they meet the newest ANSI / ISO standard for the format, not like the one shown above. Also, use BIG FRIKKIN" SIGNS™, maybe 3' x 4'.


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## TimMc (Mar 5, 2020)

Maybe the long term solution is to put dragons in the orchestra pit... or fill it with water and stock with alligators or piranha...

"What stray person? We didn't see anyone, did we, Gators and Fish?"


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## MNicolai (Mar 5, 2020)

Or sharks with highly contagious coronavirus and polio.


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## Jay Ashworth (Mar 5, 2020)

teqniqal said:


> A sign is just an admission that the problem wasn't solved.
> That said, IF you place sign(s), be sure that they meet the newest ANSI / ISO standard for the format, not like the one shown above. Also, use BIG FRIKKIN" SIGNS™, maybe 3' x 4'.


In the case being discussed, the "problem" is "there are inattentive people in a room with a purposeful condition that is dangerous".

*Lots* of people don't have the necessary labor to safe the room at the end of the day and re-dangerous it in the morning. 

So they use a sign to solve the "problem": Inattentive people.

In the final analysis, idiots are going to injure themselves no matter what you do; the purpose of the *sign* is to give your attorney something to work with in court.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Mar 9, 2020)

So related, faced with band teacher/pit conductor who insists OSHA does not require fall protection for orchestra pits because people at a certain major PAC - in a big city in Wisconsin - tell her that. I simply said that is not true and if an employee falls and is injured, expect some OSHA sanctions. If a student, expect to hear from a lawyer.


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## StradivariusBone (Mar 10, 2020)

We have a pit lift and though not required by anyone who's concerned about such things, a few years back I bought some plastic yellow chain and dog clips along with some signs, "Caution" specifically I think. The hand rails on either side of our stage are a good height to clip the chain to. I train my kids to put the chain up any time we run the pit down, which during some seasons might be several times per week. Any time the pit is left down, the chain is left up with the signs attached. I'd love a net, but we can barely get them to do rigging inspections every other year. This is the next best thing. Additionally, we only drop it for performances maybe 2 times per year. A net wouldn't prevent someone falling in while we're making a pit run since it wouldn't be possible to install it every time we run the pit.


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## BryceKastor (Jul 17, 2020)

I will give a hearty second to @MNicolai endorsement of Incord.

In our high school space we have a pit net that was built by them. Whenever the pit is going to get opened (it's a manual pull) the pit net is installed before the sections are removed.

We also do the following:
- Lay down two layers of high viz spike tape when rehearsals start to help the director / choreographer / performers becomes used to the space the pit will take up during the show... this doesn't come off until dress.

- When the pit is open, on top of the pit net, there is a portable stanchion with warning belts installed from the moment the pit is opened until we get deep into rehearsals. 
- when not removed for active rehearsal / show they are always in place. 

- We leave the fluorescent pit lights on when not in rehearsal / performance mode. In the evening they stay on as well as the ghost light. 

- Finally we have boards on SL & SR where we list current hazards on the stage 

Luckily the only thing that has gone into the pit in 10 years was some dry ice fog and a couple of small hand props.

Steven


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## macsound (Jul 20, 2020)

What are warning belts?


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## BryceKastor (Jul 20, 2020)

This Style of Stanchion belt or something similar.
(apologies for the super-sized image)


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## jtweigandt (Jul 21, 2020)

Gee and our actors and choreographers get all pissy with me when I tell them... No movement or dancing that puts your toes even an inch past the painted front light line
Not only won't your Grandma be able to see your face, you gonna break someone's new trombone..


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## BryceKastor (Jul 21, 2020)

The quote from above  

- When the pit is open, on top of the pit net, there is a portable stanchion with warning belts installed from the moment the pit is opened until we get deep into rehearsals.
*- when not removed for active rehearsal / show they are always in place.*

The layer of spike tape closest to the pit stays in through the performance.



We also only open up the 3 centre sections of our Pit... our Directors like having the apron space to play on

Don't worry ... the Grandma's can still see the little ones


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