# dont let junior techies near a sound desk



## plug_in_baby

DONT EVER LET JUNIOR TECHIES NEAR A SOUND DESK. 

during one of our colleges performances, a smallish one. the TD decided it was time to train up some of the less well trained techies. i have no problem with THIS, but after spending a day showing them the basics of sound and mixing, nothing complicated we let them loose. one of them decided to listen to some of his music coz he was bored so, he had his laptop plugged in and plugged the headphones in, played it and he sat there listening to it, not realising it was being blasted out over the P.A aswell! not good! and he ddint realise for a good ten minutes. unitl i ran up to the box and turned it off. not good at all.


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## zac850

How can you not notice that the music is playing over the PA system???

I mean, you sould be able to hear the music.......

right....

I mean, i do more lighting then sound, but still......


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## Nephilim

If your phones are up REALLY LOUD like inexperienced audio people like it, then you wouldn't notice the PA at all, unless you have k-rad subwoofers


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## The_Terg

Nephilim said:


> If your phones are up REALLY LOUD like inexperienced audio people like it, then you wouldn't notice the PA at all, unless you have k-rad subwoofers



ROFL.

A pair of Sony MDR-7506's or MDR-V600's will also have that effect  I love my cans...

I have an interesting story. Similarily, a young techie thought he was competent enough to mix for his drama class, without asking me (student TD). He patched the side-fill speakers into Aux 1. Big no no. Anyone who is familiar with the Mackie 24X4 knows that auxes 1 and 2 are dedicated prefader. Well, I wasn't there, but I all I know, is he came running down FRANTICALLY to me, finding me in class. I walked in, to find the system in horrible feedback, with drama class students running out of the auditorium, and a red-faced drama teacher (now our teacher TD, ugh).

Needless to say, he forgot that the AMPS existed... GROAN.


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## Nephilim

The_Terg said:


> A pair of Sony MDR-7506's or MDR-V600's will also have that effect  I love my cans...


Similarly the Sennheiser HD280pro set that I use. Unfortunately my nice lightweight Philips foldable set just busted one of the top struts, so I can't wear them now 


> I walked in, to find the system in horrible feedback, with drama class students running out of the auditorium, and a red-faced drama teacher (now our teacher TD, ugh).



We rarely have that problem due to our complete lack of anything but main LR, which is patched as such and never has to change ;D


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## plug_in_baby

yeah, sounds a bitch. any fool can learn about lighting and desks quickly enough but sound's a bit more tricky. there are so many more ways to fark up a sound system than a lighting desk. and the worse bit is i could do with all the techies i could get but mistakes like that don't exactly fill you with confidence when it comes to picking a crew for a show. thing is he had his phones on seriously loud and the guy on lighting was a newbie techie aswell so he just assumed it was 'meant to sound like that'!


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## The_Terg

plug_in_baby said:


> yeah, sounds a b****. any fool can learn about lighting and desks quickly enough but sound's a bit more tricky. there are so many more ways to fark up a sound system than a lighting desk. and the worse bit is i could do with all the techies i could get but mistakes like that don't exactly fill you with confidence when it comes to picking a crew for a show. thing is he had his phones on seriously loud and the guy on lighting was a newbie techie aswell so he just assumed it was 'meant to sound like that'!



In fact, sometimes I get so PISSED at these young techies, that I boobytrap the board and let them try and work it out. Most of them are idiots, and it works. You know, ill turn off phantom power, unpatch the main mix, send the tape playback to main mix (which kills all other output), screw with gains, unclick all of the assignment buttons, and turn off the amps. One of them knew how to fix half the problems, and the other two had no idea.


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## Crewguy7

I kinda take offense to this, even though i shouldn't

I'm a junior in high school right now, and i think its kinda harsh to bash younger techies. I have previously worked sound for my schoo's Variety Show, and award winning choral group, a 90 school jazzfest, etc. I personally think that these problems could be solved by using some security measures such as a hard cover for the board, and locking the power for the system.

Boobytrapping seems kinda harsh.


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## cruiser

I have to agree, with some people "booby trapping" might be the only way they are ever going to learn 1) that they dont know everything or 2) that they dont know anything!


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## The_Terg

Crewguy7 said:


> I kinda take offense to this, even though i shouldn't
> 
> I'm a junior in high school right now, and i think its kinda harsh to bash younger techies. I have previously worked sound for my schoo's Variety Show, and award winning choral group, a 90 school jazzfest, etc. I personally think that these problems could be solved by using some security measures such as a hard cover for the board, and locking the power for the system.
> 
> Boobytrapping seems kinda harsh.



There are a few things you need to keep in mind....

Firstly, Im a sophmore, and im talking about froshes. I know, not a big age difference. But its not only the fact that they are young that I do things to them. Its because they whined to their parents, saying that they wanted to get into tech, but they knew nothing. One of them claimed that he ran sound for a few assemblies! and the other really just did nothing at all

You see, not only are they young, and extremely cocky, they dont know their stuff, but yet they haven't attempted to contact me and learn. When I was in 8th grade, I had to work with a senior for a year before I mixed a show alone. They got to mix their first show. Not only is it insulting, but it sounded HORRIBLE. The kid had NO ear for feedback, NO ear for a good mix. The music was horribly loud, and the vocals totally uneven. The worst part is that 
A) I couldn't correct him because he wined to the administration and the administration said that they had to mix by themselves.
B) He didn't know that he was doing a bad job, and I dont know if he still does.

Therefore, I booby trap the board for good reason. They need to be taught a lesson, that you NEED to train and know your stuff before you try and jump right into things. For that matter, Im not claiming that I should automatically be the TD because I am oldest. I am student TD because i worked for years on tech, since 7th grade I mentored with the head sound guy. In addition, we dont have any easily applicable security measures.  The only thing we have, is an enormous wooden cover to the baord, which neither fits, nor has been used in years.

(On a different point, our new Teacher TD is starting to see the light. He is gonna pull the plug on them if they dont mix well on the first full rehearsal of the middleschool play. )


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## Nephilim

Whilst I'm generally not a proponent of booby-trapping, some people (Sophomore ASB girls, This Means You) with the DJ-style "more must be better" complex just need it.

It's also exactly why there's a switch on some compact mixer to change the main out from +4dBu to -10dBV.

*Huge Wink*


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## plug_in_baby

cruiser said:


> I have to agree, with some people "booby trapping" might be the only way they are ever going to learn 1) that they dont know everything or 2) that they dont know anything!



true, these days i fond myself sweeping the stage even though i'm the TD, the junior techies only want to do the fun stuff like lighting op or sound op, but won't chip in when it comes to the hard graft. before you can do the more exciting stuff you need to begin at the bottom, start as a stage hand and one day (if you put the hours in) you get to be at the top of your game. and also junior techies, sometime not always, have a real problem with thinking they know more than everyone else, even though the rest of us have been doing it for years. crazy! 8O


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## chizle97

Hey man, good call on the booby traps, a senior did that to me before i knew sound when i worked lights. but i wasnt an enoying tech, i hung around the senior tech since i was a freshmen and just now get to work alot of tech when im a senior. And there is nothing wrong with sweeping the stage, im the Ast. TD and head of set construction and i still mop the stage almost every time it needs to be. I guess i like it a little too much.  plus you think of really cool things while your moping!


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## Mayhem

The_Terg said:


> The worst part is that
> A) I couldn't correct him because he wined to the administration and the administration said that they had to mix by themselves.
> B) He didn't know that he was doing a bad job, and I dont know if he still does.



My initial thought here would be to have each student mix a rehearsal or similar in which his or her classmates have to review their performance. 

Firstly, it gives students an opportunity to mix and receive feedback from people that are at the same level as them. This is often a wake up call for some but often the feedback is often better received than if it was coming someone senior than them.

Secondly, they learn to listen and to articulate what it is that they have just heard, and this is not always that easy. (Something that can help is to get them to close their eyes (something I still do if I am really trying to pick something out of a mix)).

Hopefully at the end of this they will better understand the complexities of mixing without being able to cite experience or seniority (of the person critiquing them) as an excuse. The idea is to use it as a learning experience and if time permits discuss what could have been done differently. This is where a more senior person needs to be involved but they should be directing the discussion, not leading it. 

For what it is worth - My experience with booby-trapping things is it can cause the hunted to become the hunter at some stage and it can easily escalate out of control and become rather expensive. Just imagine lifting the mute when you have your favourite Black Sabbath track at unity gain and the amps wound all the way will up. This will definitely change your outlook on life. Not to mention the mass confusion caused by the pressing need to stop the bleeding from your ears, the rapidly expanding dark patch in your jeans from becoming too visible, and cleaning up the bits of paper cone that is fluttering down from the front of house stack! 

Not sure that it really help the original poster but perhaps adopting a rule of “no unauthorized inputs into the console” may help. Some people just have to learn the hard way but for many, discovering this in a controlled environment can have the most impact.

Cheers,


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## The_Terg

My initial thought here would be to have each student mix a rehearsal or similar in which his or her classmates have to review their performance. 

Firstly, it gives students an opportunity to mix and receive feedback from people that are at the same level as them. This is often a wake up call for some but often the feedback is often better received than if it was coming someone senior than them.

Secondly, they learn to listen and to articulate what it is that they have just heard, and this is not always that easy. (Something that can help is to get them to close their eyes (something I still do if I am really trying to pick something out of a mix)).

Hopefully at the end of this they will better understand the complexities of mixing without being able to cite experience or seniority (of the person critiquing them) as an excuse. The idea is to use it as a learning experience and if time permits discuss what could have been done differently. This is where a more senior person needs to be involved but they should be directing the discussion, not leading it. 
[/quote]

That is actually precisely what I wanted to see instated. Thats how it was for me anyway. I worked for about a 1/2-1 year just chilling with and watching this junior techie mix. We got to be good friends, and he would let me mix every once and a while (This was when I was in 8th grade). He let me mix for one performance at the end of the year, which let me begin mixing full time next year when he was a senior. So, I worked up the breif ranks rather quickly, but legitimately.

Actually, he and I are still good friends. For the past two years, he wen't to a local college (SUNY purchase) and I would help him record audio for a few movies that he was working on. 

The problem now, is that the young techies feel exempt from this system. Last year, there was no real Teacher TD. Therefore, we were setting the rules, and our rules said that if you want to mix, you need to atleast watch a few plays with us. This was the point of techie whining. They argued that they had plenty of experience (Which I can tell you is false from a neutral prospective) and they were able to mix 2 (HORRIBLY sounding) shows and run lights for them.

Therefore, this year they walked in with the assurance that they had the skill to run other plays. So, at this point I lack the authority (To them) to tell them what to do. It's all up to the newly reinstated Teacher TD, who unfortunately knows very little about what he does. 

But, to terminate this ranting quickly, the techies ran a show poorly at the beginning of the year, and the TD now suspects their skill. I may be giving them the aforesaid demonstration about mixing if the sound isn't up to par.


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## The_Terg

Mayhem said:


> My initial thought here would be to have each student mix a rehearsal or similar in which his or her classmates have to review their performance.
> 
> Firstly, it gives students an opportunity to mix and receive feedback from people that are at the same level as them. This is often a wake up call for some but often the feedback is often better received than if it was coming someone senior than them.
> 
> Secondly, they learn to listen and to articulate what it is that they have just heard, and this is not always that easy. (Something that can help is to get them to close their eyes (something I still do if I am really trying to pick something out of a mix)).
> 
> Hopefully at the end of this they will better understand the complexities of mixing without being able to cite experience or seniority (of the person critiquing them) as an excuse. The idea is to use it as a learning experience and if time permits discuss what could have been done differently. This is where a more senior person needs to be involved but they should be directing the discussion, not leading it.



That is actually precisely what I wanted to see instated. Thats how it was for me anyway. I worked for about a 1/2-1 year just chilling with and watching this junior techie mix. We got to be good friends, and he would let me mix every once and a while (This was when I was in 8th grade). He let me mix for one performance at the end of the year, which let me begin mixing full time next year when he was a senior. So, I worked up the breif ranks rather quickly, but legitimately.

Actually, he and I are still good friends. For the past two years, he wen't to a local college (SUNY purchase) and I would help him record audio for a few movies that he was working on. 

The problem now, is that the young techies feel exempt from this system. Last year, there was no real Teacher TD. Therefore, we were setting the rules, and our rules said that if you want to mix, you need to atleast watch a few plays with us. This was the point of techie whining. They argued that they had plenty of experience (Which I can tell you is false from a neutral prospective) and they were able to mix 2 (HORRIBLY sounding) shows and run lights for them.

Therefore, this year they walked in with the assurance that they had the skill to run other plays. So, at this point I lack the authority (To them) to tell them what to do. It's all up to the newly reinstated Teacher TD, who unfortunately knows very little about what he does. 

But, to terminate this ranting quickly, the techies ran a show poorly at the beginning of the year, and the TD now suspects their skill. I may be giving them the aforesaid demonstration about mixing if the sound isn't up to par.


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## zac850

Hum, well, at my school there isn't any real teacher TD, we've got a teacher who is in charge of the arts department, and he does a lot of sound work (and is also the band teacher, and also a composer and musician, etc). However, he is never at any rehearsals, so it always falls to me, because of lack of any one else, to become the TD. Now, first it must be said that my school is extremely tinny. We've got 9 kids in the 10th grade (the grade that im in) around 40 in the entire high school, and 140 or so from Pre-K to 12th grade. I'm in 10th grade, and this is my second year at the school. Last year I was given an over-view of the lighting by a graduating senior who would run the lights. This was great, as my main interest is lights (of corse she showed me how to run the lights for the first rehearsal, and when it came time for the show she put me in charge of it, I was a little freaked out about it....)

However, there is no one in the high school who can run sounds. For the last show of the year (last year), I was put in charge of sound without anyone really teaching me anything about sound. I knew that you pull the slider up to get the sound, and push it down to kill the sound, but that was really all i knew. As expected, the show sounded HORRIBLE. (after that i was shown basically how the sound board works, ex. EQing, mixing, and the other basic stuff). 
That was my entire introduction to my schools theater set-up, as there was really no one else who did tech.

OK, back to the point of this post:
I am really the only person at my school who will go out of his way to work on something tech. I'm the only person who doesn't mind staying 2 hours after rehearsal is over to help put up the set, or run cables, or do whatever else needs to be done. Because of this, I am respected as a techie. Im in 10th grade, and I am the TD/SM/LD, as well as some other things. On my tech crew I've got a senior. And it is that simple, he respects my judgment and that I will do the right thing (hopefully) so he will listen to me. HE is going to end up as my ASM (mainly because I need someone to tell the run crew what to do, and then run crew needs to respect him). On sound I am going to have 2 kids who have worked sound for the past 3 or 4 plays, and they are currently in 8th grade. They completely outrank me in the sound department. On follow-spots i'm going to have a 10th grader and an 8th grader, and at least 90% of my run-crew is going to be 8th graders. 

What must be remembered is that there are 8th graders who are better at doing things then some seniors are, and that just because there in 8th grade, or that I'm in 10th grade does not mean that a senior outranks me. I am lucky at my school, as everyone (including the teachers and students) knows that I'm a good techie (I can't count the number of times teachers come up to me during a break and ask me if i can get this movie, or this image to project on a wall in the next 10 minuets...).

Do not just say that they are not as good as you because there froshes. cause they might be just as good or better, in some areas. Now, from the majority of the post, I can tell that they acutely are completely out of it, and have no idea what they are doing, but if one of them is competent, then give him/her a chance to show it.

I know that this was a really long way of saying it, and has a lot of useless info about me (sorry, I just woke up), but don't just assume that they know nothing because of there age. A month ago I was talking to a 6th grader about an effect I was trying to do, because she had some experience with dry ice smoke. 

I hope that this made sense, as I said I just woke up....


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## Mayhem

In my opinion, 'rank' should be assigned based on the experience and ability of a person, not on their age.

Just my opinion.


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## zac850

yes, Mahem said in 20 words what I said in 200.

thank you


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## thorin81

I have always been about giving a student a responsibility and then make them clean something. Give your students an official title and have them sign a "contract" with their responsibilities listedon the contract. Make your sound technitians responsibilities include cleaning the booth, etc. Also give him an assistant. let him know that if he screws up there is someone there ready to take his place. Give as many of these responsibilities as you can and allow different people to "apply" for the assistant poitions when they coem into your program. That ussually keeps all the chaos to a minimum :wink: 

Good Luck Everyone!!


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## avkid

try to keep track of hours worked and skills attained assaign positions on that basis, i have over 221 hours in in just more than 1.5 years , i am 2nd in the command chain


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## dust4sound

zac850 said:


> I am lucky at my school, as everyone (including the teachers and students) knows that I'm a good techie (I can't count the number of times teachers come up to me during a break and ask me if i can get this movie, or this image to project on a wall in the next 10 minuets...).
> 
> Do not just say that they are not as good as you because there froshes. cause they might be just as good or better, in some areas. Now, from the majority of the post, I can tell that they acutely are completely out of it, and have no idea what they are doing, but if one of them is competent, then give him/her a chance to show it.



Same here Even the librarian and Electronics, and Tech. Teachers call me out of class to do things like that for them.


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## avkid

for the majority of last year ( my freshman year) i was not allowed to touch much of anything.


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## Inaki2

Mayhem said:


> In my opinion, 'rank' should be assigned based on the experience and ability of a person, not on their age.
> 
> Just my opinion.



I am 21, I ran the lighting section of a company and had guys nearly twice my age under my command...age isn't an issue, just experience.


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## Mayhem

Inaki2 said:


> Mayhem said:
> 
> 
> 
> In my opinion, 'rank' should be assigned based on the experience and ability of a person, not on their age.
> 
> Just my opinion.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am 21, I ran the lighting section of a company and had guys nearly twice my age under my command...age isn't an issue, just experience.
Click to expand...


LOL - Have you been working too hard again Inaki? That is what I have said (as have a few people after you). 

I think it is safe to say that we have all come to the conclusion that experience should be the key factor when assigning tasks and responsibilities. 

However, on the other hand, we have to ensure that junior and new techies have the opportunity to gain experience. This decision need to be made on the basis of the job or task in question. 

See - fix one problem and another opens up. Such is life!!


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## Nephilim

It's possible that the laptop had both a Line Out and Headphone socket; and the headphone didn't lock out the Line Out signal...


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## plug_in_baby

yeah but they like to look important mainly for girls, if it looks like they've hooked up some 'really complicated' system then they must be cool or something, never quite understood that one. i jsut put my ipod on or let em borrow it.


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## sallyj

If the TD is starting to see the light, that is a good thing. Best thing you can do is stay on his good side and be helpful. Maybe then you can try to reinstate a training process for up and coming techies. Documentation of training or something.

SJM


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## yvfd82t

I am a Junior Techie and I just want to say I am not lik most others, i know i dont know everything, so i learn what I cam when i can, and i sweep the stage before andd after the peformance. So my main point is that all Junior Techies are that bad.


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## plug_in_baby

of course not all junior techies are bad but these one's are its more that i often find the people new to it think they know alot more than they do, and yeah sally j i am the TD of that lot now, i use to be the SM but after the TD left i took over and i'm starting to put together some training schedules and some experiences or them, i'm thinking that if they start by observing the senior crew during shows / rehearsals then they operate things under supervision an then finally after a few weeks / months they get to try it on their own, anyone got any similar ideas?


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## JP12687

I am currently the TC(co-title role with TD) and i have been known to use the board to listen to movies when i am working on small shows. But i also know how to keep it out of the mix so no one else hears it. So the "no unauthroized input" rule isnt necessary. The rule should be "no untrained personel may touch this board under penalty of death"


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## zac850

JP12687 said:


> no untrained personel may touch this board under penalty of death"



I would say "no untrained personnel may touch this board without supervision under penalty of death"

It has always struck me as odd/annoying that so many places won't take the time to teach you unless you have experience. It makes it hard to break into the field. If your never allowed to operate the board, then how will you ever learn? I guess I'm just stating the obvious, but if someone wants to learn how to run the board, show then, let them do it, just keep an eye on them to make sure they don't trash all the cues in the show, or feedback the entire sound system (is that the right terminology, it sounds a bit weird?).


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## yvfd82t

"no untrained personnel may touch this board without supervision under penalty of death" [/quote]
I like this idea we should all use it!!


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## JP12687

> It has always struck me as odd/annoying that so many places won't take the time to teach you unless you have experience. It makes it hard to break into the field. If your never allowed to operate the board, then how will you ever learn?



I agree, and i teach people the basics very often. However int hat situation untrained personel were allowed to use the board WITHOUT supervision and without the ability to learn while doing. But to come in having the aditiude i need no help, i am better then you, i can do it..and then screw it up is unacceptable


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## yvfd82t

I still say the only time someone should be back there is if they have permision from the TD of asst. TD


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## blsmn

zac850 said:


> Hum, well, at my school there isn't any real teacher TD, we've got a teacher who is in charge of the arts department, and he does a lot of sound work (and is also the band teacher, and also a composer and musician, etc). However, he is never at any rehearsals, so it always falls to me, because of lack of any one else, to become the TD. Now, first it must be said that my school is extremely tinny. We've got 9 kids in the 10th grade (the grade that im in) around 40 in the entire high school, and 140 or so from Pre-K to 12th grade. I'm in 10th grade, and this is my second year at the school. Last year I was given an over-view of the lighting by a graduating senior who would run the lights. This was great, as my main interest is lights (of corse she showed me how to run the lights for the first rehearsal, and when it came time for the show she put me in charge of it, I was a little freaked out about it....)
> 
> However, there is no one in the high school who can run sounds. For the last show of the year (last year), I was put in charge of sound without anyone really teaching me anything about sound. I knew that you pull the slider up to get the sound, and push it down to kill the sound, but that was really all i knew. As expected, the show sounded HORRIBLE. (after that i was shown basically how the sound board works, ex. EQing, mixing, and the other basic stuff).
> That was my entire introduction to my schools theater set-up, as there was really no one else who did tech.
> 
> ....



Well, adding my 2 cents to this discussion, and being the person responsible for all the audio, video, and lighting technical aspects of a school district, the above post seems to explain a big part of the problem. There seems to be a complete lack of understanding by school districts that this is as much of a teaching situation as is any other subject in school. There would never be a computer class and lab without a certified person teaching it - why in the world should technical aspects of theatre be any different. Granted, being thrown into a situation and having to produce sometimes can be a great learning tool - but with the cost of equipment and safety concerns schools should be held to a higher standard in insuring that a responsible adult has control over the situation. There are no students in this district that even come within sniffing distance of any of the technical equipment until they have been trained by me and I am satisfied that they have an understanding of the gear and know what they are doing.

There have been some people who have had issues with the way I handle things around here, and more than once I have heard the statement "Well, you know it's only high school theatre". Bullshit - plain and simple. I worked in professional theatre before taking this job and saw way to many examples of high school tech kids being hired for load in and set up for some shows who didn't have a clue, and I swore that no person coming out of this school would ever fit that description. High school technical theatre needs to be thought of in the same manner as professional technical theatre - after all, we are all using the same forms of equipment to accomplish the task, and while those doing it need to enjoy the work they do, there is definitely a professonal attitude that must be upheld at all times. As for the examples of a person sitting behind the sound board listening to music or watching movies, if that ever happened here it would be the last time they'd be sitting in that position.


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## zac850

I compleatly agree.

Let me give (a hopefully breif) snapshot of how I learned tech stuff.

My first year at the school I was shown how to run the schools (very small, very pathetic) lighting set-up. I was shown how to use this set-up by the student who knew how to use it.

Towards the end of that year, I end up running sound for Reservoir Dogs (some kids adapted it for the stage, worked very well). I am running sound. From what I remember, the sound board was set-up, and I was set free on the board. The show sounded horrible, the gun shot sound effects were always at least 3 secounds late, etc.

This year, as the other person graduated, I was the only one left willing to work on the tech stuff. I learned a little about how the sound board worked, and I was getting ready to hang lights for the drama when I came across this site. This site, I can safely say, taught me about 80% of what I know about tech stuff. Over the year, my school spent a lot of money, and we got a new lighting set-up. I was still the single person at my school who knew how to do tech stuff. I found out what board we were getting (Express 125) and downloaded the manual, and read about 200 pages of the manual. 

We got our light load-in, and I was there to help set everything up, and one of the guys who came in was nice and helped me learn how to attached the break out to the soco cable, how to set-up the dimmers, the basic's of the S4 and the S4 PAR, and a very basic overview of the board (at that point we didn't have the DMX cable we needed, so it was hard to do much of anything).

There was also a tech class held for lighting that I attended, but that class was more of a this is a fresnel, this is a gel, this is a light board, this is a dimmer type of class, since thats where everyone else was.

Well, we did the big musical, and with enough time on the board, I figured out how to use all of the stuff.

School ended and I got an internship at a large, 587 seat house in my area. It was the summer stock program, which was nice because everyone was a little more relaxed, making it easier to learn. Also, the lighting designer was the guy who came in to give us our lighting class, so I knew him already.

At this large theater, I learned how a real theater works. I learned about how the electrics are set-up, learned how to change PAR laps, and really got better at trouble shooting things.

Also, about half way through this internship, I learned how to use a soundboard. The sound board op was called in for jury duty, so he gave me the hour tour of the board and showed me how everything works, (he didn't know who, if anyone, would be able to come in to cover for him).

Earlier today I talked to the headmaster of my school, and I told him I needed to go in and do some work in the gym/theater. He said OK, and told me to come in next Monday, because people will be at school. 



I want to look at this for a minuet, and see how much of this the school taught me.

There was one actual tech class, however by that point, I already needed to know what was being taught. This 6 week class was the only thing that was being offered by the school for tech theater. Sound was not covered at all. Also, this was an after school class, we would stay after school on Tuesday or Wednesday for an hour and learn this stuff.


I am trying to think why the school is not so interested in making sure that kids learn about this. I think it may be because all of this is very new to the school, and I have made it of a "its just going to be there, and it will just be done" type of thing. Thinking back to the days in middle school when I was an actor, I always just assumed that the lights would be there, and that all the lights would be working the way they should be. 

However, teaching these things to the kids in school is very important. My school spent $50,000 on our lighting system, and no one except me seems to want to make sure it stays used.

And I wish I knew why.


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## tjbaudio

Anonymous said:


> But still, would you go to all that trouble to connect it to the sound board. Its quicker just to fuss with your laptop than to find the adapters to connect a laptop to the console.



Acouple of things come to mind:
1 its cool to be running threw the sound board 8)
2 maybe he did not have his own headphones and the booth phones were 1/4" only and the cable to hook a laptop up to the console was sitting there.


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## JP12687

TJ number 2 is the exact reason i have been known to do that in the past. I was running a show and i did not have my headphones with me and wanted to watch a movie( i was doing a very boring show, a 4 1/2 hour lecture actually not a show) so i hooked myself up through the board and used the 1/4" headphones from the board to lsiten


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## SjoramNFT

Soo many things I can relate to here. Our school, we have a 'hierarchy' system in our 'dept.' I'm probably about 3rd. We have someone lower than me ... all I can say is he has, as of last Friday, been permanently 'sacked' and banned from the balcony in the hall on which our equipment is located. Let's just say it involved a MAJOR sound mess-up. The Head of Music asked that he be sacked, after school I phoned the head of the team (also a v gd friend of mine - good thing) and the person in question has been sacked with immediate effect! Let's just say he gained himself a rather derogatory (sp?) nickname from the first time we saw him!


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## avkid

i have a strange feeling the same kind of event is going to happen tommorow at my school! the ld who graduated last january and won't leave recently got himself arrested for theft and may cause a complete shift in hierarchy (good for me)


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## len

plug_in_baby said:


> yeah, sounds a b****. any fool can learn about lighting and desks quickly enough !



Spoken like a true sound guy. I'd love to see you run 5 or 6 universes at the same time. And make it all look right.


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## propmonkey

Q: why do sound guys only count to 2?
A: if they could count any higher they would be the lighting guy.


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## mr_sound

Ok this is goint to be way off topic...but have you ever noticed that sound people seem to have a lot of resentment for lighting people, and sometimes vice versa? I do both, so I have nothing against either. But I have noticed a lot of sound people really dislike lighting people. Maybe it's just me.

And BTW, sound people only count to 2 because on 3 you have to lift something.


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## len

Could it be that lights have to go in first and out last? Plus there are usually more boxes for lighting than for sound. So the sound guys end up doing more lighting on the push than vice versa.


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## mr_sound

My theory is that, in my opinion, lighting is less stressfull than doing sound. I'm not saying that lighting is easy...but as a sound guy as well, I know how high stress sound can be. Although keep in mind I'm talking about concerts here....not theater. With live sound you gotta deal with bitchy musicians, and the usual know-it-all fans who insist on telling you how to mix....who are usually either drunk, or the parents of that same shitty musician who's turning your mix into nothing but out of tune guitar. Plus during changeovers lighting guys can usually go take a break for a minute..get something to eat/drink. When you're doing sound...if it's a small enough production you end up changing over the stage as well, so you don't really get a break ever. Of course, if you're like me you know how to sneak out in the middle of a song once everything is dialed in. 

I don't think that lights are in first and out last would have much to do with why sound people dislike lighting people. On any show where you have a lot of gear to move in/out in not a lot of time, it's usually better to be out of there sooner anyways. The lighting people end up waiting on the sound people, and the band, to get the stage clear so they can do their work.

I don't know what you meant by sound guys doing more lighting on the push......but I'm assuming you mean the sound guys end up helping push around some of the lighting cases. Well, unless the two different crews are friends with each other, that's unlikely. I've learned to only move what you own, and never anything else. Occasionally I'll help a band member move a monster bass cab (one of those 10x12s) if they're struggling....but I'll never dissassemble a drumset for someone, and certainly never touch any of the sound gear. And I'm actually friends with the sound crew I usually work with. I don't even help coil their cables. They're not getting paid to move my stuff, and I'm not getting paid to move their stuff. And actually, that's the union mentality...a specific job for a specific crew. In some areas there is actually a difference between a stage hand and a truck loader. Loaders aren't allowed to push cases or help set up, and stage hands aren't allowed to load/unload a truck.


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## len

When I say "push" I mean moving all the equipment into and out of the venue. Where I work, we do both sound and lighting. Everybody pushes cases in (we don't carry nothing!) and there's usually a manager orchestrating what goes where. Then the lighting guys start hanging motors and assembling trussing. Since there's not enough room to do both, the sound guys can't do much except put the FOH board and effects together and they're usually are standing around or doing grunt type stuff like pulling soco for us and moving dead cases. When we're done the sound guys start with speakers, amps, backline, monitor mix, etc. The lighting techs clean up and do grunt stuff for the sound guys while I start programming. 

Fortunately, the people I work with work well together. We goof on each other a lot, but nobody gets really nasty.


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## plug_in_baby

len said:


> plug_in_baby said:
> 
> 
> 
> yeah, sounds a b****. any fool can learn about lighting and desks quickly enough !
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spoken like a true sound guy. I'd love to see you run 5 or 6 universes at the same time. And make it all look right.
Click to expand...


no you mis understood me, i'm a lighitng tech, i mean i find it easy, i find sound difficult, i mean i an run a concert and stuff but i cant get it to sound any good.


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## Dan-Greaves

Hey, I'm a junior and I don't have a clue about lighting or sound yet but everyone needs to start somewhere! I think that technical theater is relly cool and I want to have a job in it when I'm older and obviously you like it to and I think that it's really horible that you booby trap the boards. How are they ever going to get better like that!


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## ccfan213

i feel that lighting is much easier during the show, especially if you have your cues programmed and are just hitting the "go" button and sound is much harder during the show, but prior to the show, sound takes a couple of hours tops to set up, sound check, mic all performers and get everything ready, but we can be hanging and focusing lights and programming cues for a week. so in the end i think they balance out to be a somewhat similar amount of work but at different times.


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## who_touched_the_patch

zac850 said:


> If your never allowed to operate the board, then how will you ever learn? I guess I'm just stating the obvious, but if someone wants to learn how to run the board, show then, let them do it, just keep an eye on them to make sure they don't trash all the cues in the show...



Sorry to reach so far back into the conversation, but zac has a great point. My theatre company currently enrols about 450 kids in drama classes, and has recently started teaching technical classes for about 60 kids.

All of the teachers have at least a CerIII in some form of Technical Theatre, and have a few years of experience under their belts.

We find that the best way of teaching these guys how to run a show is to do a sort of mentor/student type of thing. It means that you use about twice the amount of techies on a show, but it's well worth it for the experience that these kids get.

Its only been on about six or seven occasiones in the 18 months we've been running the course (equates to about 9 shows) that a senior has had to step in and fix something. (Of course, we dont give them jobs like SM or LD.)

They are a wonderfully competent bunch, and the best thing is that they know that if they stuff up, someone s right behind them to fix the problem and clean up after them.


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## cutlunch

I agree they need hands on to learn but put a teaching program in place so you know what they know. I wouldn't booby trap a board before a show in case they can't fix it in time and a genuine problem comes up.

As part of their training once you have taught them the basics then I would set up a test for them, on a training day, where you have caused problems on the sound system. But you tell them you have done it so they can switch into fault finding mode and think things out without there being time pressure.


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## J-Money

Doing a "Test" of some sorts during non-essential times is a good way to learn things on the fly...booby trapping the board, amps, whatever, is however not a very cool way to teach someone a lesson. If they mess something up for the first time, you say something to resolve the issue, teach them the proper way of doing things, and move on. If they continue to do the same thing over and over, then they should be disciplined or removed. If somebody that knew audio better than you came in and "booby trapped" your board, to teach you a lesson...would you be happy?

As far as the lighting guys hating the sound guys...I don't personally have a problem with our light guys, because we've worked together for so long. But, most of the animosity I've seen in other venues, is because of one being in the others way...or equipment being in the way. - Jeff


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## SuperCow

I love the sound guy. We're best frinds, so we just about always get along!


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## moderately_clueless

Okay, I'm a senior. And I'm in charge of a fair amount of all the tech stuff in my school. But I'm in a similar boat to a few people on here. I have never been formally taught anything about sound. The seniors who taught me didn't know much more than the basic sliders and gain. Due to this, I've had to figure it all out. And I'm absolutely positive that some of my methods or ideas are totally wrong. It would be beyond egotistical to say that I or any other high school tech knows everything about sound. I may know more than most in my theatre, but I have as much to learn as they do. 

So for one, boobytrapping is probably one of the more obnoxious things you could possibly do. It's a powertrip and it keeps everyone else from using the board. Not only does it disable them from learning, but if anyone but you has to use the sound board, it's impossible. This is one of the huge reasons I hate high school theatre. The egoes are huge and there is such competition for power, when really, none of us actually know that much. So when I have to run a show or an assembly in an hour and another senior has completely disabled the board just for his own good, it's not only immature, but detrimental to the program as a whole. I shouldn't have to waste half an hour finding all the things other people have intentionally screwed up when I could be checking levels and organizing the show. It's immature, it's detrimental and it creates some real animosity between you and everyone else. Please, tell me how that helps anyone.

Moving on from my rant, in place of kicking them out, teach them. Tech theatre is different from most education in that experience is really the only way. There aren't many books that will tell you how to EQ a space, how to properly wire/run a sound board, or what the hell +4dbu or -10dv mean. And if there are, please let me know, educate me. I could use some books like that. If these kids truly have no interest in the overall good of the performances, get rid of them. But if they have any interest or ambition whatsoever, teach them. It's unfair to expect them to magically know things just because you know them. High school theatre is for education. It won't ever sound perfect, but at the very least, someone other than you will be capable of running a show.


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## Charc

Who sabotages something? Does that seriously happen?

The closest we come to that is new guys who just don't know how to do something properly, so we let them know, show them the correct method, and move on.


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## moderately_clueless

Oh, it definitely does happen. Absolutely infuriating when I leave to get dinner and come back to find my sound board rewired by another kid just because he felt like it and because he has it in his head that since he knows more than most, he has a right to sabotage them. So, then, with a half hour to curtain, I have to figure out a board that worked perfectly well to begin with. Guh. 

Although, after working a few years in a high school, now that I have a job in a real theatre, it seems almost easy. Oh, tech is funny like that.


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## TechiesDoItInTheDark

I am positive that half of my junior techies think that they know way more about things than i do. it drives me insane! i have been here longer, i was personally taught by the master, i pretty much know what the hell's going on! so why do they feel the need to start messing with boards and things when i leave the room? i've come back countless times to find that the sound board is completely out of wack because they "thought" they could do a better job. i feel for you


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## Hughesie

plug_in_baby said:


> true, these days i fond myself sweeping the stage even though i'm the TD, the junior techies only want to do the fun stuff like lighting op or sound op, but won't chip in when it comes to the hard graft. before you can do the more exciting stuff you need to begin at the bottom, start as a stage hand and one day (if you put the hours in) you get to be at the top of your game. and also junior techies, sometime not always, have a real problem with thinking they know more than everyone else, even though the rest of us have been doing it for years. crazy! 8O


 
that is completly true working your way up is a good thing, it means you get a chance to see what the job is like for other people, also if your not doing anything it is good to go up to them and ask is there anything i can do. i love when junior techs do that. also earn the trust of the operators if you spot something out of place tell them "i don't know if this is right but ....this happened or i can see.......which i don't think is right" someone like that making sure everything is ok is great

i don't booby trap the desk...we have a soundweb system (everything runs through it) and if i don't want them to use it i mute all the outputs which sounds mean but my school is completly covered in wireless access points so if they call me and say they need something i can open the program and enable it


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## SHARYNF

No to drop into the middle of a discussion, but it is important the remember that more and more research shows that people actually learn by DOING, not watching, not reading, not listening, but doing. Not exactly the way most schools are run, but never the less is it is the primary way we has humans learn.

SO instead of trying to prevent it or take it as a sign that the other person does not think you know what you are doing, take it as a coaching experience, let the person do it with some watchful supervision, help them let the experiment.

Usually the behavior indicates that the person is really interested, is trying to learn but the learning environment is not working for THEM.

I know in the entertainment field there is the idea that you have to start at the bottom, do all the dirty jobs, work you way up. Fact is in business and life this is not really the case, most CEO's were never the janitor or the mail room clerk.

I have found that a blend of the "fun jobs" can be the motivator to help get the dirt jobs done, builds a much stronger bond, and encourages the person a lot more. I have found when you use the "give me a hand with.." for the fun jobs you will have no problem when you ask "give me a hand with" the not so fun jobs.

anyway I'll "duck now"

Sharyn


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## thebikingtechie

Just to add to what Sharyn said, I have been on both sides of the problem, being the senior member on a crew and then the junior member on another. I have learned that if you teach the juniors how to run the boards properly, and give them time to use them and learn about them, they won't mess with them as much, and when they do experiment with them they'll know what they're doing and not mess things up.

The biggest problem is when you don't let them touch the board, but they really want to so they wait until you leave and then mess with it, possibly wrecking something. If you just teach them right from the beginning everyone will be happier.


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## Jervas

One thing worse that junior techies... **** know it all security gaurds who are employed to look after outoor concert gear overnight. The ammount of times I have had to or hear of guys having to fix their 'curiosity' ia astounding


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## Logos

I'm sorry Jervas and you occasionally earn a living as what? Oh an all night security guard was that?
Just joshing.


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