# Generator Brand Question



## JD (Feb 2, 2012)

We are going to be putting in a 10kw emergency generator at our church. (limited branch circuits) I just want to be aware of any red flags regarding brands. The three brands in the running are Generac, Siemens, and Kohler. All are Natural Gas units with auto-transfer. Obviously, each has told us how great they are.

Brand reliability for generators is something that I am not too well versed in, and I don't want to end up with the old "Why on earth did you buy one of those! Everyone knows they are Junk!!"

So, the unbiased opinion would come from the users! Any red flags I should pass on?


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## mstaylor (Feb 2, 2012)

JD said:


> We are going to be putting in a 10kw emergency generator at our church. (limited branch circuits) I just want to be aware of any red flags regarding brands. The three brands in the running are Generac, Siemens, and Kohler. All are Natural Gas units with auto-transfer. Obviously, each has told us how great they are.
> 
> Brand reliability for generators is something that I am not too well versed in, and I don't want to end up with the old "Why on earth did you buy one of those! Everyone knows they are Junk!!"
> 
> So, the unbiased opinion would come from the users! Any red flags I should pass on?


I don't know of any red flags on those three but I would add Onan to the mix. They are very good, dependable and widely used. Our local power company, hospital and my venue all use them. We put one in big enough to handle our emergency system but also our refrigeration and other mechanicals.


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## porkchop (Feb 2, 2012)

I don't have any red flags to offer either. My only generator experience is with much large units, but I have worked with Siemens equipment and it tends to be pretty high quality and reliable.


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## Pie4Weebl (Feb 2, 2012)

No red flags to any of those as well. I'm not sure if these companies makes ones that small, but I'd suggest looking at Agrekko and Cat.


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## mstaylor (Feb 2, 2012)

Pie4Weebl said:


> No red flags to any of those as well. I'm not sure if these companies makes ones that small, but I'd suggest looking at Agrekko and Cat.


I did one of ther Dew Tour stops this year and they powered it from two Cats.
Onan makes everything from 2500W to ones big enough to run buildings.


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## jonliles (Feb 2, 2012)

I have to plug my company, look at GE 10kW standby Gennies (Nat Gas) & quite possible a bit on the big side, look at Solar. I'm used to 100 to 350kW loads on buildings, how large is the church - electric feeder capacity?

On a plus side, Onan has been used in Marine & RV environments for DECADES.


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## JD (Feb 2, 2012)

jonliles said:


> I have to plug my company, look at GE 10kW standby Gennies (Nat Gas) & quite possible a bit on the big side, look at Solar. I'm used to 100 to 350kW loads on buildings, how large is the church - electric feeder capacity?
> 
> On a plus side, Onan has been used in Marine & RV environments for DECADES.


 
Somewhat cost prohibitive for the whole church which is fed off of a 600 x 3 main. What we are looking at is a 50 x 2 sub-panel that feeds six 1/3 hp drain pumps. Just looking to keep the pumps running so we don't go under!


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## avkid (Feb 2, 2012)

Are they sump pumps in pits?


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## FMEng (Feb 2, 2012)

I deal with a number of generators at broadcast facilities, ranging in size from 7.5 kVA up to 400 kVA. My three favorites are Cummins/Onan, Caterpillar, and Kohler. Generally, Cummins/Onan will be the more expensive but also the best made. Kohler and Cat are comparable in price and work fine. Siemens just isn't widely used, which would concern me.

I have never operated a Generac, but I have heard many horror stories from their customers. They are cheap for a reason and long term support is poor. I would avoid Generac.

Natural gas is a good way to go for that size and application. Make sure your vendor is over-sizing the generator for starting motors. I recommend using a block or coolant heater because warm engine starts more reliably. In colder climates, a battery warmer is a good idea.

Also consider some of the water powered auxiliary pumps. They use city water to operate when the power is out. I first saw them on "Ask This Old House."
http://www.basepump.com/images/Backflow Article.pdf


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## Footer (Feb 2, 2012)

mstaylor said:


> I did one of ther Dew Tour stops this year and they powered it from two Cats.
> Onan makes everything from 2500W to ones big enough to run buildings.


 
If you were at Killington, you should have said something earlier... I might have made the run over! 

As with the others... all of that gear is extremely high quality. There is no name better in industrial automation then Siemens.


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## FMEng (Feb 2, 2012)

Footer said:


> If you were at Killington, you should have said something earlier... I might have made the run over!
> 
> As with the others... all of that gear is extremely high quality. There is no name better in industrial automation then Siemens.


 
Siemens is a corporate giant into a bunch of industries world wide. Just because their product in one industry is excellent doesn't mean they lead in another. Their generators could be great, but I've never seen nor heard of one in the wild in my part of the country. Secondly, the international nature of the company could mean that the engine brand used might be more exotic and parts more scarce. The three brands I mentioned tend to use engines that are common in various uses in the US, so the local NAPA parts store will have items like oil filters and spark plugs. 

I was once surprised to peek into a rental generator to find a Fiat diesel engine. Not a problem for a big rental outfit that buys them by the thousands, does their own service work, and sells off the units at the end of depreciation, but for a single owner who wants to maintain the machine for the next 30 or 40 years, the wrong engine could make life difficult.


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## avkid (Feb 2, 2012)

FMEng said:


> Also consider some of the water powered auxiliary pumps. They use city water to operate when the power is out. I first saw them on "Ask This Old House."
> http://www.basepump.com/images/Backflow Article.pdf


Scary, you read my mind.


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## TimMiller (Feb 3, 2012)

What size sump pumps. Most of our sump pumps at work are around 5hp 3 phase 480v. Most generac's are only single phase home generators. At one time generac commercial units were kohler generators coupled onto cummins diesel engines. Most smaller generac's with the little kohler engine have been known to blow up around 50-100 hours. Our fire departments use 25k cummins generators. They are powered by natural gas burning ford v-6's (pretty ironic to see a ford coupled to a cummins) but they work great and parts are easy to get. Also keep in mind there are hybrid and bi-fuel generators. They hybrids work like the cars. The genset charges a bank of battery's mounted onto the genset skid where the fuel tanks normally sit. The load is connected through an inverter to convert the battery power AC. As the batteries discharge and charge the generator will turn on and off respectively. It's a nice design providing very clean true sinewave power. The bi fuel generators will run off utility natural gas but if the natural gas supply is interrupted it will switch to running on diesel fuel. They can switch back and forth between diesel and natural gas without interruption. Also there are hydraulic powered pumps available also. The hydraulic pumps are driven by diesel powered engines, but while utility power exists electric motors drive a hydraulic pump. The diesel and electric powered hydraulic pumps are two separate pumps incase one fails there is a backup. Also keep in mind pumps are not generator friendly. They will pull twice to three times their normal load when starting. (we have to synchro start all of our pumps or we will trip breakers). I know my little 3hp well pump makes my 7kw generator jump every time it kicks on so definately keep your starting load in mind. Look up locked rotor amps for a guide on actually how many amps a motor pulls when starting up, it's mindblowing.


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## JD (Feb 3, 2012)

TimMiller said:


> What size sump pumps. Most of our sump pumps at work are around 5hp 3 phase 480v. Most generac's are only single phase home generators. At one time generac commercial units were kohler generators coupled onto cummins diesel engines. Most smaller generac's with the little kohler engine have been known to blow up around 50-100 hours. Our fire departments use 25k cummins generators. They are powered by natural gas burning ford v-6's (pretty ironic to see a ford coupled to a cummins) but they work great and parts are easy to get. Also keep in mind there are hybrid and bi-fuel generators. They hybrids work like the cars. The genset charges a bank of battery's mounted onto the genset skid where the fuel tanks normally sit. The load is connected through an inverter to convert the battery power AC. As the batteries discharge and charge the generator will turn on and off respectively. It's a nice design providing very clean true sinewave power. The bi fuel generators will run off utility natural gas but if the natural gas supply is interrupted it will switch to running on diesel fuel. They can switch back and forth between diesel and natural gas without interruption. Also there are hydraulic powered pumps available also. The hydraulic pumps are driven by diesel powered engines, but while utility power exists electric motors drive a hydraulic pump. The diesel and electric powered hydraulic pumps are two separate pumps incase one fails there is a backup. Also keep in mind pumps are not generator friendly. They will pull twice to three times their normal load when starting. (we have to synchro start all of our pumps or we will trip breakers). I know my little 3hp well pump makes my 7kw generator jump every time it kicks on so definately keep your starting load in mind. Look up locked rotor amps for a guide on actually how many amps a motor pulls when starting up, it's mindblowing.


 
Far more modest needs! All pumps are 1/3 horse 120v single phase. Run wattage about 330 watts, start wattage of about 2300 watts. If all started at the same time, surge would be 11,500 watts, which is within the 13k surge rating of the 10k gene.

Again, everyone, thanks for the input!


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## gafftaper (Feb 3, 2012)

When choosing between quality products, I would focus on the availability of service and parts locally. Who are you going to call for maintenance and repair? What brand do they want to work on? If you are calling a direct manufacturer's rep for repair who is likely to get there first? Who has the best 24/7 support?


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## mstaylor (Feb 3, 2012)

Footer said:


> If you were at Killington, you should have said something earlier... I might have made the run over!
> 
> As with the others... all of that gear is extremely high quality. There is no name better in industrial automation then Siemens.


Ocean City, MD First stop of the summer series.
I do like the idea of knowing what motor is in it for repair and maintenance.


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## mbenonis (Feb 3, 2012)

FMEng said:


> I deal with a number of generators at broadcast facilities, ranging in size from 7.5 kVA up to 400 kVA. My three favorites are Cummins/Onan, Caterpillar, and Kohler. Generally, Cummins/Onan will be the more expensive but also the best made. Kohler and Cat are comparable in price and work fine. Siemens just isn't widely used, which would concern me.
> 
> I have never operated a Generac, but I have heard many horror stories from their customers. They are cheap for a reason and long term support is poor. I would avoid Generac.


 
I'll echo FMEng. Avoid Generac at all costs; I've never heard good news about them. That's the "why on earth did you buy one of those" generators. They target more of the home market than industrial sized applications.

My genset is a 35 kVA Kohler, and most other broadcast facilities I work on have Cummins/Onan (diesel, 500 kVA each) or Cat (various sizes).

Automatic transfer is good, but remember that there is a variable pause time and then a spin up time of about 15 seconds before they'll kick in. So you're looking at ~30 seconds in the dark when the power drops. If you have critical computers or other devices, make sure they're on UPS, AND that your UPS is happy running on the generator. Almost all generators put out FAR dirtier power than the grid does. The waveform is usually downright nasty.

Maintenance. Make sure you maintain the generator. That means regular oil changes, regular fluid checks, and running it often (not less than once a month). I like to run them once every two weeks, and under load once a month or so. This is critical to make sure that it will work when you need it. If you're not comfortable working on the engine, get someone who does. In addition to pushing the magic test button, I would also kill the Mains breaker once every six months or so to simulate a true power outage and make sure it all spins up right. I can't emphasize enough how critical maintenance and care is.

Fuel. Sounds dumb, but make sure the truck can get to your fuel tank. It's amazing how some tanks can be fenced in or difficult to get to. You're probably not at 3800' on a mountain though...

That's about all I can think of. Let me know if you have any more questions.


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## djyojoe (Feb 3, 2012)

I own and maintain all my portable Gen Sets. Small 2kw to large 250kw and do maintenance on much larger units. They all have there + & -. I have the Little Honda's, to the large Cat's and Multiquip. I would lean towards the Cummins / Onan for that size of a Get Set. They are pretty reliable. I would also not waste the money on a 10kw when you can spend a tad more and get a 12kw. You say your going to use it on pumps now. But Once you get a backup generator, you will find ways to expand off it in the future. Just my 2cents...

gafftaper beat me to it.

The key decision to your final purchase should be based off of...

1. What's that company's support like? Can you call them 24hrs a Day and someone will answer.
2. Who will service the unit and test it? Church Members or are you going to hire a local Electrician or Mechanic? If you hire an Electrician or Mechanic, make sure they know how to perform work on generators and what is his availability for emergency calls.
3. Parts... Are you in a rural area and parts aren't available or are you located in populated areas. Maybe buy some spare parts to keep on hand. They help when you're in a pinch, even when you have a emergency repair person available in town that can perform the work but no part to fix it with. and keep a spare set of replacement filters on hand. It's easy to use the ones on hand when you service the gen set and order new ones during the service work. There have a been plenty of times I go to pick up the usually stocked filters to do a service and you get everything except for just one filter and it won't be in for a week...

And my favorite!
Buy Whatever you can buy that's made in the Good Old U.S. of A.

Support American Jobs


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## SHARYNF (Feb 3, 2012)

JD said:


> Far more modest needs! All pumps are 1/3 horse 120v single phase. Run wattage about 330 watts, start wattage of about 2300 watts. If all started at the same time, surge would be 11,500 watts, which is within the 13k surge rating of the 10k gene.
> 
> Again, everyone, thanks for the input!



Here is a completely different approach

If budget is a consideration, you could look at a sequential startup for the pumps, and then look at a more modest portable setup. I use the Honda 3000i quite a bit.


Anyway if you are looking at a permanent setup IMHO it is the engine that is more important from a reliability standpoint then the actual gen part. Generac is sort of on the junk side of things, cummings and cat are the major engine folks on the larger sizes and Honda on the smaller sizes.

Sharyn


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## shiben (Feb 3, 2012)

SHARYNF said:


> Here is a completely different approach
> 
> If budget is a consideration, you could look at a sequential startup for the pumps, and then look at a more modest portable setup. I use the Honda 3000i quite a bit.
> 
> ...


 

Big fan of Cat personally. It helps that their plant is nearby and employs a few thousand people in my area.


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## Lightguy48 (Feb 4, 2012)

*Stay away from GENEJUNK!!* I cannot say how much I hate those pieces of junk!! At the 10kW size you're in the low-end of generators, basically 'consumer' or 'home' grade units. Kohler is good, I would also highly recommend Baldor or Onan. 

10kW is really small and you're likely in the air-cooled range which are once again going to be 'cheap' generators. Step up to 20-30kW and get you something that is liquid cooled along with a block heater to keep the engine warm and ready to roll.

Also STAY AWAY from 3,600 RPM units, once again these are low end units that sound like they're going to fly apart and typically have a short life. 1,800 RPM units are generally better built higher grade units.

Also, you need to budget for annual PM on a generator, the oil and filter needs to be changed annually, coolant checked, batteries checked, etc. Don't buy it and forget about it! Generators need TLC just like HVAC, AV gear, etc.


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## mstaylor (Feb 4, 2012)

We have two generators in my venue, a small one that runs just the emergency light system and a large one to run 80% of the building. The first one auto switches with loss of power, the second has to be started and incrementally loaded. Once loaded it switches off the first generator. We start both every Monday.


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## Edrick (Feb 4, 2012)

Another vote for avoiding Generac unless you want it to fail on you during a critical moment. It's a good throw away generator.


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## ejsandstrom (Feb 9, 2012)

I was in the generator field (Field Service tech) for 15 years, so all of my opinion comes from thousands of hours of real world experience. If you name a brand, I have probably worked on it or replaced it. 

You don't mention a transfer Switch. You need one. GE Zenith is one of the best. In this size Onan is second, Asco third. Cat re-brands transfer switches. 


First 6 1/3 Hp motors run almost 900w each. So around 5kw running. About 15kw if they all start at once. 

Also keep in mind that most generators (NatGas) in the 1 to 20kw range usually run in the 3600rpm range. And natural gas is not very good at absorbing heavy loads especially if you are at 150% of name plate rating. Couple that with the face that you are running a 100% motor load. Generators (that size) are rated for 1.0 power factor and when you start adding motor loads your PF changes and drops the capacity of your generator. Most of these also use a full field type of excitation, so you get 100% rated voltage and speed and then both start to drop as you add load. Not good for anything but incandescent light bulbs. These are usually also air cooled, not good for a long running time. You will get a couple hundred hours and then replace them. 

So with that look at a 15kw diesel. These are used in multitudes of fire trucks, buses, and outer utility situations. You will get the extra capacity, diesel powered (able to take transient load fluctuations better), most will be 1800rpm, water cooled and have electronic voltage regulation. A well maintained diesel engine can run thousands of hours. You will often replace every other component before you replace the engine. The main draw back is the fact that you need to run a coolant heater year round. 

As far as brands, in this size and applacation. I would go with an Onan (They are all sold under the Cummins brand). They have an excellent brand reputation, lots of service centers with field service techs. Second would be a Cat, they dont excel at the smaller stuff and most is made by FG Wilson in the UK. The controls are not as reliable because they use a lot of modules and old school relays. It will probobly a Perkins engine.

Don't be afraid to look at the Kohler stuff but only as a 3rd option. 
Generac does not make JUNK but their smaller stuff is not as good. Most people that hate Generac, went to home depot, picked up what ever was on sale, didn't take care of it and tried to take it back to home depot. I have seen lots of generac stuff with over a thousand hours on it. 
Seimens is re-branded generac. Literally made in the same factory using same parts but painted different color (at least the last time I heard, about a year ago)
Baldor may make great motors, not so much on generators. They buy parts from who ever and build them. 
MQ Power is usually built as part of a rental fleet, service and parts suck.
Aggreko is a rental company, they build their own stuff and it is very shade tree. 

Budget $500 a year for maintenance, and $2000 every 5-7 years for extended maintenance.


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