# Can somebody (smart) sort this out??



## Anonymous067 (Jul 25, 2009)

I need help figuring out some stuff with our sound system. I need some speculations made on how this is most likely connected. Yes...I know this is a bad questions..but I've studied this stuff in and out, and can't figure it out. Here we go.

We have three clusters of speakers. All speakers are Renkus Heitz discontinued TRAP series. (Renkus-Heinz Inc. - Professional Loudspeakers)

As I suspect from my observations, they are laid out in this config:
Left cluster: 4 cabinets, three columns within that cluster, 1 left, 2 center, 1 right. The left and right I suspect are Trap40MK's, and the 2 center ones are Trap40K. 
Right cluster: same as left.
Center cluster: 4 columns within that cluster, 1 left, 2 leftcenter, 2 rightcenter, 1 right. Again, I suspect the far left and right cabinets are Trap40MK's and the all four center speakers (middle columns) are Trap40k's. Clear as mud?

Our Soundweb DSP's put this out as an ouput:
"Left" Outputs...
1. Upper LF 1
2. Middle LF 2
3. Lower LF 3
4. Mid/High 1
5. Mid/High 2
6. Mid/High 3

"Center" Outputs...
1. Upper LF 1
2. Middle LF 2
3. Lower LF 3
4. Mid/High 1 & 4
5. Mid/High 2 & 3

"Right" Outputs
1. Upper LF 1
2. Middle LF 2
3. Lower LF 3
4. Mid/High 2
5. Mid/Hi (no typo) 1 & 3

Amplifiers...Renkus Heinz discontinued (so I presume) P3500 & P3501 series (cannot find web link).

"Left" Cluster
Amplifier (3501) 1...L-LF1, R-LF2 (wired into one cable, no idea if this splits at the cabinets)
Amplifier (3501) 2...L-LF3, R-MH2 (wired into one cable, no idea if this splits at the cabinets)
Amplifier (3500) 3...L-MH1, R-MH3 (wired...)

"Center" Cluster
Amplifier (3500) 1...L-LF1 Left, R-LF2 Left
Amplifier (3500) 2...L-LF1 Right, R-LF2 Right
Amplifier (3501) 3...L-LF3 Left, R-MH2
Amplifier (3500) 4...L-LF3 Right, R-MH3
Amplifier (3500) 5...L-MH1, R-MH4

"Right" Cluster
Amplifier (3500) 1...L-LF1, R-LF2
Amplifier (3500) 2...L-LF3, R-MH2
Amplifier (3500) 3...L-MH1, R-MH3

I gather that most of the outputs of the DSP go directly into the amps (they're labeled the same...so 1-1 patch type thing), that seems slightly obvious. For the record, all schematics are long gone, a man who thinks he owns the system has taken them (we actually had to change locks so he would quit taking things).

What confuses me is how on earth the amps are connected to the speakers. I don't have (and probably never will) have access to the speakers up close. Binocular view only folks...

My best guess is the larger cabinets are bi-amped?
Anybody have an intelligent guess?

I should also mention, no amps are operating in mono mode or bridge modes.


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## lakota651 (Jul 25, 2009)

Hey Blah

Check out page 16 of the manual for the amps. I think it may shed some light on your situation. It can be found at RH's website. From the main page select the link from the menu bar on the left that says "FTP/Legacy Products".


If it doesn't help, is there anyway you can include some pics of of the amps for one of the clusters, and maybe as nap shot of your DSP.

Best,

Lakota


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## Anonymous067 (Jul 25, 2009)

Here's what I have from my cell phone camera...


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## epimetheus (Jul 25, 2009)

Maybe I can help out a little...

According to the speaker data sheets, assuming your speakers are the TRAP40K and 40MK, they have mid/high crossovers built in. That makes me think that the 40K's are getting 2 separate signals, mid/high and low. The 40MK's are getting a single signal - mid/high. If this is accurate, you've got 6 signals going to the left and right clusters, and 8 to the center cluster. This is how I would have done it.

This of course does not match up with your amps. Another possibility is that they bi-amped the 40MK's as well, and paralleled them by columns. That would explain the left and right clusters. The DSP would have a low and mid/high output for each of the 40K's and a mid and a high output for the parallel set of 40MK's. For the center cluster, maybe they tri-amped the 40K's individually (low, mid, high) and bi-amped the 40MK's in parallel sets (mid and high).

A slight abberation of my second suggestion would be that the left and right clusters also have tri-amped 40K's with the 40MK's mids and highs paralleled with the 40K's mids and highs, since the 40K's and 40MK's have the same mid and high drivers.

Maybe you could try turning down all amp channels (recording their previous values of course) and turning up one channel at a time to see which speakers emit sound. You could also play different frequency test tones through your system to see which frequencies the DSP's route to which amps.


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## gafftaper (Jul 25, 2009)

You know, the odds are good that it was done on a contract and there are bid specifications and even schematics that were used for that bid. If you know who installed it you might try contacting them, they may still have the old records. Otherwise talk to your maintenance and facilities people and see if they know where these records went. Usually that kind of stuff get's dumped in a room somewhere and is there forever if you know where to find it.


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## Anonymous067 (Jul 25, 2009)

gafftaper said:


> You know, the odds are good that it was done on a contract and there are bid specifications and even schematics that were used for that bid. If you know who installed it you might try contacting them, they may still have the old records. Otherwise talk to your maintenance and facilities people and see if they know where these records went. Usually that kind of stuff get's dumped in a room somewhere and is there forever if you know where to find it.



Trust me, I've looked.
A man named M&^%$ B^%$#@ took it home with him. He won't give it up to anybody. I could try calling the install company, but I'm worried they'll call up the facility and ask why we want more copies, because person X should have them.


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## museav (Jul 25, 2009)

Blah067 said:


> Trust me, I've looked.
> A man named M&^%$ B^%$#@ took it home with him. He won't give it up to anybody. I could try calling the install company, but I'm worried they'll call up the facility and ask why we want more copies, because person X should have them.


The installer should have turned the documentation over to the proper people, so it would seem that either the person that has the documentation is the Owner or the system documents should not have been given to him in the first place and the actual Owner should be able to demand their return. I realize that there may be some issues with the instller but something just does not seem right if someone other than the Owner took the system documentation and the Owner is afraid to demand it back or pursue getting copies.

Without system drawings or being able to trace wiring, you may greatly be limited to guessing. I do think that the idea of trying one amp channel at a time could help.

My first thought was that the two high vertical stacks in all three arrays were long and short throw components, but then it would not make sense to have them in parallel to one amp channel as you could not process them separately or even adjust the relative level.


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## Anonymous067 (Jul 26, 2009)

museav said:


> The installer should have turned the documentation over to the proper people, so it would seem that either the person that has the documentation is the Owner or the system documents should not have been given to him in the first place and the actual Owner should be able to demand their return. I realize that there may be some issues with the instller but something just does not seem right if someone other than the Owner took the system documentation and the Owner is afraid to demand it back or pursue getting copies.
> 
> Without system drawings or being able to trace wiring, you may greatly be limited to guessing. I do think that the idea of trying one amp channel at a time could help.
> 
> My first thought was that the two high vertical stacks in all three arrays were long and short throw components, but then it would not make sense to have them in parallel to one amp channel as you could not process them separately or even adjust the relative level.



Person X does not own this system (his job couldn't possibly pay for this system). He however does have all our system documentation, which he was not given, but rather took (stole) from the facility. The facility does not have a purpose to see the documentation (as far as they're concerned, they hear sound, it "works"), I however, have other motives and purposes that the administration simply do not understand...


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## museav (Jul 27, 2009)

Blah067 said:


> Person X does not own this system (his job couldn't possibly pay for this system). He however does have all our system documentation, which he was not given, but rather took (stole) from the facility. The facility does not have a purpose to see the documentation (as far as they're concerned, they hear sound, it "works"), I however, have other motives and purposes that the administration simply do not understand...


In other words, you're caught in the middle. The Administration should care when an otherwise minor service issue could cost twice as much or more with having to figure out how everything goes together, but they may not believe that until it happens.

You can maybe narrow it down by determining what each amp channel powers or try to match all the cable labeling (although that is no guarantee, I remember trying to figure out one system that had multiple cables with the same label, apparently they just used whatever labels they had with them as long as the labeling was the same on both ends).


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## Anonymous067 (Jul 29, 2009)

museav said:


> In other words, you're caught in the middle. The Administration should care when an otherwise minor service issue could cost twice as much or more with having to figure out how everything goes together, but they may not believe that until it happens.
> 
> You can maybe narrow it down by determining what each amp channel powers or try to match all the cable labeling (although that is no guarantee, I remember trying to figure out one system that had multiple cables with the same label, apparently they just used whatever labels they had with them as long as the labeling was the same on both ends).



I have actually reserved the space for three full days (24 hr days), and plan on doing full scale, channel by channel testing, including different frequencies and amp channels. I plan to get this sorted out.

Question: Is it possible to check if speakers are paralleled by checking the ohms on the line somehow? Wouldn't that give an indication how many cabinets were on each amp channel?


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## Chris15 (Jul 29, 2009)

Blah067 said:


> I have actually reserved the space for three full days (24 hr days), and plan on doing full scale, channel by channel testing, including different frequencies and amp channels. I plan to get this sorted out.
> 
> Question: Is it possible to check if speakers are paralleled by checking the ohms on the line somehow? Wouldn't that give an indication how many cabinets were on each amp channel?



We have the manufacturer's driver impedances don't we? If you can get an impedance meter you should get a reasonably accurate idea (but it depends in the frequency used for each).

Otherwise, an 8 ohm box presents about 5 ohms DC resistance, a 4 ohm pair will be 2 and a half...


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## museav (Jul 29, 2009)

Blah067 said:


> Question: Is it possible to check if speakers are paralleled by checking the ohms on the line somehow? Wouldn't that give an indication how many cabinets were on each amp channel?


Yes, but you need something that will measure impedance and not just resistance to get anything accurate. For that you could can use an impedance bridge like this Impedance Meter, a test set like this Parts-Express.com:Gold Line TS-2 Audio Oscillator / Impedance Meter | oscillator meters meter impedance dls audio audi, an analyzer or analysis program and interface like this VIBOX - Voltage and Current Measurement Interface, or a dedicated tester like this, Dayton Audio - WT3 Woofer Tester.

Another factor is that a speaker's impedance varies greatly with frequency, thus two nominal 8 Ohm speakers in parallel can easily read as 8 Ohms or greater at some frequencies making you think they are not in parallel or two different speakers with nominal 8 Ohm ratings could both measure as 6 Ohms at some specific frequency, making it unclear whether they are in parallel or not. So to determine whether speakers are in parallel or series via measurement you really need to either compare the impedance measured at a frequency to impedance curves for the speakers (and hope the speakers are still working properly and the curve is valid) or look at multiple distributed frequencies or, preferably, a full range sweep.

(Chris apparenty typed much quicker than I did, sorry for the overlap)


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## epimetheus (Jul 29, 2009)

I've had reasonably good luck just using a standard multimeter. As Chris and Brad said, this wouldn't be as good as an impedance measurement, but if plan your measurements carefully and make the correct comparisons, it can work.


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