# Fullness or no Fullness?



## rsmentele (Dec 19, 2018)

Hello Everyone!

I wanted to bounce this off the hive mind as well before I go proposing this option.

I am spec'ing new soft goods for a space I work at. Borders, Legs, Travelers, exc. I am considering going no fullness vs the typical fullness. I have not worked in a space with no fullness curtains, so I am not super familiar with the total end product, but Im told it looks much cleaner and professional. 
I can always spec the curtains extra wide to allow for fullness to be tied in if desired, but I doubt any of the users aside from myself would know about that...
Has anyone had issues where they've gone with no fullness and had negative feedback?


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## Van (Dec 19, 2018)

98% of the curtains we manufacture, yes we make our own, are with 50% fullness. I'm astounded at the number of Theatre consultants that still spec legs and borders with fullness. I've always worked in theatres where the legs and borders were sewn flat and fullness was determined by how you tied in. I prefer to have the option of different looks.


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## bobgaggle (Dec 19, 2018)

I've never seen a benefit to fullness in legs and borders. All that fabric bunched up down at floor level gets snagged on moving set pieces and creates a trip hazard, especially if you've got a chain in the bottom and they've sunk a bit and puddled fabric on the floor. Plus, the visual look of fullness is more noticeable than flat sewn goods. Rarely is anyone supposed to look at the stock soft goods, they're supposed to visually disappear. When it comes to borders, fullness just adds more things to snag on when you're flying your electrics/other scenery. Flat is the way to go


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## MNicolai (Dec 19, 2018)

Generally I do fullness on the mains and travellers. Legs are tie-in and borders are flat.

IMO, fullness makes a more of a visual statement than lackthereof. It has a tendency to look "old" and "amateurish" on black stage curtains. The way that light spills across the ripples in it tend to draw the eye to it more and remind you "Hey You! You in Row EE, Seat 151, Guess What I'MMM A CURTAIN and not part of the show -- this is BACKSTAGE where all the ACTORS and ACTRESSES hide because this whole charade is FAKE and now you just MISSED 20 seconds of dialogue thinking about ME."


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## Butch! (Dec 19, 2018)

I suppose it depends on the venue . . .

For a professional venue's black masking softgoods I'd agree with no fullness and tying it in when desired. But in a mixed use space, like say a high school or small convention center, hotel ballroom, etc, where the full stage black may be used as the backdrop for a band concert, guest speaker, etc I'd go at 50% fullness, so that it has some visual texture instead of looking like someone hung a wrinkled sheet to hide the back wall.


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## Scarrgo (Dec 19, 2018)

We just bought all new legs and borders here(HS Theater-mainly all in house events beside dance show season) we went all flat except the upstage traveler/full black that is at 50%, we also have two full stage travelers that are flat that double as borders.
All are IFR
Only thing I don't like is that even though I bought heavy weight, the weave is not as tight as the old material
My father, who also is a long long time theater guy said  "I don't know who you are? not my son..." when I told him I went all flat....LOL

Sean...


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## BillConnerFASTC (Dec 19, 2018)

Above HS, I most ofetn do flat or flat with enough to tie in fullness on legs and borders. Travelers don't look so good flat in my opinion - though it can be nice and crisp with back pack guides. Borders in three half widths can be 4 (with fullness tied in) or 6 (flat). Samewith legs - 1 1/2 pair of 20' wide can be nearly a full stage back drop.

in HSs, more often than not some one or more of the travelers has to do double duty as legs, and (main) full - flat - full - flat does not look good. Also more often than not there are no legs, just three or four black full stage travelers that legs or back drops so you can cut the stage and hide stuff at multiple depths. Borders end up being full then also. Rural school board members, superintendents, HS band directors - few usually appreciate the desirable aspects of flat and feel like they got cheated.

Aesthetically - no question I want flat most of the time, with a pipe in the borders. Or all framed, but then the dancers complain and get hurt.


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## Scarrgo (Dec 19, 2018)

I agree that in most cases a flat traveler isn't the prettiest of things, but we felt it was right for what we do, the mid-stage black gets used as screen legs most of the time when not in border use, same for our 3/4.
I was not sure 50% was going to be enough for our upstage, but it looks fine. 
I wish I had bought a little more width in our legs, but is what it is....
Our borders are one piece, with the bottom pipe, line is so sharp, its great.
For the legs we use a plastic pipe w/chain to hold the leg flat, and not kill dancer ankles, and never ever a fan of leg puddling...nope, just don't like it...but to each there own
Sean...


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## RickR (Dec 19, 2018)

Fullness makes the curtains absorb more light, they are 'blacker'. I'd do 100% or more if the budget allowed.

Fully framed and stretched is neater and cleaner but much harder to accomplish. I hate the look of mixed flat and full, so I come down on the side of some fullness.


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## RonHebbard (Dec 19, 2018)

RickR said:


> Fullness makes the curtains absorb more light, they are 'blacker'. I'd do 100% or more if the budget allowed.
> 
> Fully framed and stretched is neater and cleaner but much harder to accomplish. I hate the look of mixed flat and full, so I come down on the side of some fullness.


 *@RickR* Perhaps it's time to emphasize the importance of the direction of the nap when working with velour and matching the appearance of different legs and borders and travellers when all cut from the same velour but with some inadvertently fabricated with their nap down and others fabricated with their nap up. 
Toodleoo! 
Ron Hebbard


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## RickR (Dec 19, 2018)

@RonHebbard That's all part of my boiler plate specs!

I'll bring up the idea that if the curtains are noticed, something is wrong in front of them.


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## RonHebbard (Dec 19, 2018)

RickR said:


> @RonHebbard *That's all part of my boiler plate specs!*
> 
> I'll bring up the idea that if the curtains are noticed something is wrong in front of them.


 *@RickR* Perhaps you'd elaborate a bit here for the benefit of the 'great unwashed'? 
Toodleoo! 
Ron Hebbard


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## RickR (Dec 20, 2018)

Well if you're talking about what specs are; 

Text specifications, like drawings, are part of the construction documents for any Design-Contract project. That covers most big and/or public construction. Text specs can easily add up to many fat books. They are supposed to cover anything that is best said in words instead of lines. 

I _*get to*_ detail exactly how curtains are to be made and hung, for entire sets. Stating nap up or down, all from the same dye lot, vertical seams, pleat and grommet style and spacing and whatever else is important for the job. My typical curtain and track sections are about 10 pages long. If the written specifications don't detail _*all*_ the details then the contractor/manufacturer can do it any way they like. (cheapest and sloppiest unless dealing with a quality company.) If it's not done as written then the contractor has to fix it. (in theory  )


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## RonHebbard (Dec 20, 2018)

RickR said:


> Well if you're talking about what specs are;
> 
> Text specifications, like drawings, are part of the construction documents for any Design-Contract project. That covers most big and/or public construction. Text specs can easily add up to many fat books. They are supposed to cover anything that is best said in words instead of lines.
> 
> I _*get to*_ detail exactly how curtains are to be made and hung, for entire sets. Stating nap up or down, all from the same dye lot, vertical seams, pleat and grommet style and spacing and whatever else is important for the job. My typical curtain and track sections are about 10 pages long. If the written specifications don't detail _*all*_ the details then the contractor/manufacturer can do it any way they like. (cheapest and sloppiest unless dealing with a quality company.) If it's not done as written then the contractor has to fix it. (in theory  )


 *@rsmentele @Van @bobgaggle @MNicolai @Butch!* and * @Scarrgo*
What's being 'danced about' here is consultants are paid well to detail the fabrication of curtains including the direction of the fabric's nap when curtains are fabricated from velour. I've met a number of "set designers" and "Master Carpenters", yes, even in "professional" venues, who swore up and down that one leg in a set of six pairs of legs, five borders, two intermediate travellers one main drape and one vallance was from a different dye lot when the seemingly different colored leg was fabricated from the very same bolt of velour but was merely fabricated with its nap upside down in comparison to all of the remainder. Over the course of several years and too, too, many "professional" opinions this lowly IBEW and IATSE Head Electrician ended up taking the seemingly mismatched leg and draping it over one of the travellers whereupon most of the experts appeared somewhat startled and stood back stroking their beards. On one hand, the carpenters gave me hades for untying their seemingly mis-colored leg and taking it upon myself to drape it over a traveller but on the other hand my suspicions of nap were confirmed, I learned a valuable lesson and I giggled quietly when I met many of those same "pro's" for years to come.
*For those playing along at home* who are NOT experts in the fabrication of masking from materials such as velour with nap. (Such as I, a retired lowly IBEW and IATSE electrician who purports to know SFA [Suite Phuque All] about cloth, fabrics and sewing in general)
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard


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## MNicolai (Dec 20, 2018)

RickR said:


> (in theory  )



Yeah -- in theory. Recently got a job installed with a muslin cyc that was supposed to poly cyc to be both IFR and wrinkle resistant. Rejected the muslin on their shop drawings and issued a field report that they needed to replace what they installed because it was non-compliant. As of a month ago during final tuning it was will the wrong cyc. I also dinged them for labeling the curtains as being compliant with NFPA, but not actually indicating on the tags what the FR/IFR status was. We'll see what's in there next month when I do follow-up.

Since we're talking about specs though -- like @RickR said, assume that if there's a cheaper way to do it that a vendor will try to give that to you. If you don't want curtains with horizontal seams, lightweight fabric, and without any backing for blocking light transmission through the fabric, then you want to call that out. Curtains are a definite race-to-the-bottom market if you don't specify exactly what you want or buy from someone highly reputable. Anyone's happy to charge you more for a higher cost product but they're just as happy to give you whatever is absolutely cheapest to produce.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Dec 20, 2018)

Ive always specified nap up, and when a set was fabricated nap down, easy to let the owner decide - on light and flip one piece so it's nap up. Owner said change them.

I do feel the ifr polyester fabrics show much less difference between nap up and down compared to cotton. Much less direction in KM Charis at least.


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## RonHebbard (Dec 20, 2018)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> Ive always specified nap up, and when a set was fabricated nap down, easy to let the owner decide - on light and flip one piece so it's nap up. Owner said change them.
> 
> I do feel the ifr polyester fabrics show much less difference between nap up and down compared to cotton. Much less direction in KM Charis at least.


 *@rsmentele @Butch!* and *@Scarrgo *
Reversing the direction of the nap's not so easy once the goods have had their grommets and pockets installed, not without shortening and losing fabric. 
Toodleoo! 
Ron Hebbard


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## StradivariusBone (Dec 20, 2018)

We have flat legs and borders that are 50% sewn in. It looks as bad as it sounds.


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## RonHebbard (Dec 20, 2018)

StradivariusBone said:


> We have flat legs and borders that are 50% sewn in. It looks as bad as it sounds.


 *@StradivariusBone* By any chance did you order your legs one and a half to two times wider than desired so you can tie them with fullness if / when desired or is that too much to hope for*?* I suspect I can predict your answer. 
How skilled are you with a seam picker*??*
Do you already have a chain or pipe pocket across the bottom or your borders*???*
(Are you totally phuqued*????*) [Spell-check has neither a clue nor a klew.]
Season's Best!!! 
Toodleoo! 
Ron Hebbard


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## StradivariusBone (Dec 20, 2018)

Oh yeah, the legs are plenty wide and when I started they were tied at 50% fullness (or thereabout). We keep them at straight and tie the excess back because it's easier when moving equipment around them. The borders do have chain in the bottom pocket, but I haven't explored the possibility of ripping the top of them apart.


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## Van (Dec 20, 2018)

Speaking of Specs... I love reading things like:

Materials: Flame resistance: Must be 100% IFR and NFP701 Compliant via Immersion method....
then
Curtain Fabric: Must be 100% Cotton IFR 
Products: KM Fabrics "Memorable" 25oz Velour.

Wait, we're really drifting from the fullness question.


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## MNicolai (Dec 20, 2018)

@Van I don't know, that spec looks pretty full of something to me.


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## Van (Dec 20, 2018)

Ok, for those that don't read specs all day long. 
"IFR" is Inherently Flame retardant and typically used to refer to Polyester fabrics for Draperies.
"Immersion Method" is the process used to flame treat cotton fabrics. Cotton is NOT IFR.
KM Fabrics "Memorable" is a Cotton Velour. 

All of this results in writing a Request for information before you even get started on a project.


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## Tom Andrews (Dec 20, 2018)

Van said:


> "IFR" is Inherently Flame retardant and typically used to refer to Polyester fabrics for Draperies.


Though not all polyesters are IFR.


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## David Ashton (Dec 26, 2018)

here in W Australia we don't have your problem as virtually all stage drapes are wool and are as fireproof as sheep, unfortunately most are specified with fullness, which is amateurish in my opinion, blacks are supposed to disappear, not be a feature.


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## derekleffew (Oct 15, 2021)

Some posts have been moved to a new thread: https://www.controlbooth.com/threads/sheer-drapes-flat-or-fullness.48589/


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