# Wireless Video System



## chausman (Jul 12, 2012)

Does anyone know of any kind of reliable wireless video systems, to go from a Macbook Pro to a VGA splitter? I would assume that something is available, at some great expense, but I'm not sure how to begin looking for something like this. The content would be Keynote presentations. I'm not sure of the distance, but I think it's about 30' at most. At this point, this is more of an idea someone had, so budget isn't really important. I'd at least like a minimum price for something of adequate quality. Any ideas.


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## derekleffew (Jul 12, 2012)

chausman said:


> ... but I'm not sure how to begin looking for something like this. ...


Have you tried teh google?


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## DuckJordan (Jul 12, 2012)

derekleffew said:


> Have you tried teh google?



that is awesome!


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## chausman (Jul 12, 2012)

derekleffew said:


> Have you tried teh google?



And what are your experiences with that Derek? Are any of them reliable? Would you trust them?


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## Chris15 (Jul 13, 2012)

Chase, I'm not Derek, but I do have a simple rule...
If it's show critical, use cable.

Even the most reliable of wireless systems can be compromised on show day by an unexpected interference source...


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## ruinexplorer (Jul 13, 2012)

What kind of resolution are you trying to send? (VGA = 640x480 in resolution terms, VGA is often synonymous with the D-sub 15 pin connection used for analog transmission of video data which is what I think you mean)

Wireless transmission of video data will greatly increase in price the higher resolution which you intend to transmit. The more reliable you want your signal, then you will also spend more to get off of commonly used bandwidth (like 2.4 gHz).


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## chausman (Jul 13, 2012)

ruinexplorer said:


> What kind of resolution are you trying to send? (VGA = 640x480 in resolution terms, VGA is often synonymous with the D-sub 15 pin connection used for analog transmission of video data which is what I think you mean)
> 
> Wireless transmission of video data will greatly increase in price the higher resolution which you intend to transmit. The more reliable you want your signal, then you will also spend more to get off of commonly used bandwidth (like 2.4 gHz).



640x480 is most likely what they'll want to send. Personally, I don't really want to mess with wireless, especially with something as trivial as video, when VGA is already run to the projectors (above the gym), and to a convenient place. I think a balun to go from the second floor loft to the ground floor would be more appropriate. I at least want to find some products, (and hopefully an outrageous price tag) to hopefully steer them away from that idea.


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## ruinexplorer (Jul 13, 2012)

That's pretty low resolution for a presentation. My guess is that they will at least want 1024x768. I have seen a few that were OK with that, but it depends on the noise of the spectrum you choose as to the reliability. I agree with Chris that if at all possible, stay wired.


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## Chris15 (Jul 13, 2012)

The BARE MINIMUM would be 800x600, but I'd be complaining pretty loudly about anything less than 1024x768, ie. XGA resolution if I were presenting...


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## chausman (Jul 13, 2012)

Chris15 said:


> The BARE MINIMUM would be 800x600, but I'd be complaining pretty loudly about anything less than 1024x768, ie. XGA resolution if I were presenting...



Ok... so I wasn't really told much about it.  so if we are going to assume 1024x768, then that's a good place to start. I found this (Gefen, LLC - Wireless VGA Extender LR (Long Range)) for a measly $600. 

Things that strike me as deal breakers for the whole concept, would be

 Requires (possibly bulky) transmitter and receiver, which both require external power.
 Not reliable.
 Expensive.
 Not reliable.
 Unnecessary
 Not reliable.

Did I forget anything?


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## FACTplayers (Jul 13, 2012)

Chausman, why haven't you thought of an AppleTV and OSX 10.8? You can mirror your computer screen right on the AppleTV very similar to how you can mirror your iOS device on AppleTV. Oh yeah, OSX 10.8 isn't "officially" out yet... I would use a cable until this fall or find OSX 10.8 (not that I'm suggesting anything...)

Edit: You could also download an app (the name esacpes me) that adds a second screen to your computer via wifi. Then mirror that to an AppleTV or get a DVI connector for the iOS device.


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## cpf (Jul 13, 2012)

Experience tells me that most Keynote presentations are only 1/8th content, with the rest being fancy animations. This presents a problem as with most remoting/screen-sharing system you'll have issues with animations and videos. It's possible to tweak settings enough to get a low-latency video "stream" going, but your network better be reliable - especially for videos with sound.


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## FACTplayers (Jul 13, 2012)

cpf said:


> Experience tells me that most Keynote presentations are only 1/8th content, with the rest being fancy animations. This presents a problem as with most remoting/screen-sharing system you'll have issues with animations and videos. It's possible to tweak settings enough to get a low-latency video "stream" going, but your network better be reliable - especially for videos with sound.



Latency shouldn't be an issue since all of the content would be delayed together. The only delay "issue" would be when you change slides it would take a second or so before it changed, but that's expected even when you hardwire a projector and use a remote.


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## chausman (Jul 13, 2012)

I had thought about AirPlay. However, I don't know if it will send audio out the headphone jack or the Apple TV, and if the two MacBooks we have even work with AirPlay. I think one of them might be too old.


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## FACTplayers (Jul 13, 2012)

chausman said:


> I had thought about AirPlay. However, I don't know if it will send audio out the headphone jack or the Apple TV, and if the two MacBooks we have even work with AirPlay. I think one of them might be too old.



Airplay does intact send audio along with video. I use it all the time. Any mac that is able to run OSX 10.8 should work with Airplay. It seems (in recent news) that Apple is phasing out macs that won't fully work with the OS. Luckily my 4-year old youngster is capable.


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## cpf (Jul 13, 2012)

FACTplayers said:


> Latency shouldn't be an issue since all of the content would be delayed together. The only delay "issue" would be when you change slides it would take a second or so before it changed, but that's expected even when you hardwire a projector and use a remote.



Saying that a one- or two- second delay when using a remote is "acceptable" is wrong - at least if the user is a frequent, experienced presenter. The slide should advance the moment you press the button, otherwise the user may instinctively press it again, even if warned of the delay. 

Depending on the screen sharing system, it may also update one section of the screen before the rest - a really unprofessional look. AirPlay would probably do a better job of this, as it is designed specifically for visual quality.


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## FACTplayers (Jul 13, 2012)

cpf said:


> Saying that a one- or two- second delay when using a remote is "acceptable" is wrong - at least if the user is a frequent, experienced presenter. The slide should advance the moment you press the button, otherwise the user may instinctively press it again, even if warned of the delay.
> 
> Depending on the screen sharing system, it may also update one section of the screen before the rest - a really unprofessional look. AirPlay would probably do a better job of this, as it is designed specifically for visual quality.



One second would be acceptable. But that's a matter of opinion. Airplay, per my suggestion, wouldn't have any delays.


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## museav (Jul 13, 2012)

FACTplayers said:


> Airplay does intact send audio along with video. I use it all the time.


The audio is transmitted, but the only audio outputs on an Apple TV are embedded audio on the HDMI output or TOSLINK S/PDIF digital audio. HDCP can also be an issue with Apple TV and since they were asking about feeding a VGA splitter rather than a HDCP compliant HDMI input that could get interesting.

According to Apple's published OS X 10.8 Mountain Lion tech specs, AirPlay mirroring requires a second or third generation Apple TV and is only supported for mid 2011 or newer iMacs, mac minis or MacBook Airs and early 2011 or newer MacBook Pros. Not relevant here since the source is a MacBook Pro, but note that AirPlay mirroring is apparently not supported for Mac Pros even with OS X 10.8.


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## SanTai (Jul 14, 2012)

I have no experience with pro video. But I have some thoughts anyway...

Do you have to stream live?

Can't you place a computer close to the projector, upload the slides before the show. During the show the only thing you do wirelessly(is that a word?) is tell the computer to change slide. This would give you less problem with streaming video and whatever.

Just a thought. Upload all the heavy data before the show.


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## derekleffew (Jul 15, 2012)

chausman said:


> And what are your experiences with that Derek? Are any of them reliable? Would you trust them?


No experience. The last time I needed wireless video, I used a Rabbit. Note the date of the article. 



http://accessories.blogdetik.com/files/2010/10/wpid-41z6wcfnatlsl500.jpg

And I agree 1000% with Chris15's "If it's show critical, use cable."
"A $5000 wireless mic system will sound _*almost*_ as good, and be _*almost*_ as reliable, as a $10 cable."


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## EricE (Jul 29, 2012)

Airplay is a great option - refurbished Apple TV's can be scored for $80 routinely from Apple's online store. Or you can get something purpose-built: Kanex ATV Pro I need to get one of those and add it to my bag of tricks!

As for outputting from your computer, there are applications like Air Parrot. Air Parrot has both Mac and Windows versions: AirParrot - AirPlay your Mac or PC's screen to AppleTV

I've used it on the Mac and it works better than one who does AV and understands wifi and networking thinks it would! There probably are other similar applications out there - Airplay support is becoming pretty popular. Yamaha's recent AV receivers have it built in now, for example.


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## museav (Jul 30, 2012)

EricE said:


> I've used it on the Mac and it works better than one who does AV and understands wifi and networking thinks it would! There probably are other similar applications out there - Airplay support is becoming pretty popular. Yamaha's recent AV receivers have it built in now, for example.


I have a University Client that wanted to support wireless video from iPads and we went with the approach of AirPlay and Apple TV. It has been so problematic, especially in terms of getting it to work on their network, that I don't think it will be included in future projects. Another example of something that was really developed for your living room and that may work fine there but may not be as accpetable for many commercial applications.


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## EricE (Jul 30, 2012)

museav said:


> I have a University Client that wanted to support wireless video from iPads and we went with the approach of AirPlay and Apple TV. It has been so problematic, especially in terms of getting it to work on their network, that I don't think it will be included in future projects.


 
Yup - that is the biggest issue. Thankfully, if you have a newer device, it's easy to get around. From the Kanex FAQ section:

*Do I need a wifi connection for this to work?
AirPlay Mirroring requires Apple TV and iOS device to be on the same network. If you have the new iPad 3rd generation or iPhone 4S it has a personal hotspot that Apple TV can join which will form a network of the 2 devices.
*
When I'm visiting somewhere, that's how I have it pre-configured on my ATV and iPad or iPhone. The travel ATV I have is permanently set to my ad-hoc wifi network, and my iPhone and iPad have it as just another network configuration. I pick it in my settings and I'm up and running.


> Another example of something that was really developed for your living room and that may work fine there but may not be as accpetable for many commercial applications.



People said similar things about the computer, television and many other technologies that are not commonplace in business or education. It's early, but the trends are there. Intel has their My Wifi PAN stuff, but good support for new technology like that typically doesn't materialize until there are millions of devices pushing a use for it - Airplay is going to be one of those technologies that drives this whole area to finally get cleaned up.


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## museav (Aug 6, 2012)

EricE said:


> People said similar things about the computer, television and many other technologies that are not commonplace in business or education. It's early, but the trends are there. Intel has their My Wifi PAN stuff, but good support for new technology like that typically doesn't materialize until there are millions of devices pushing a use for it - Airplay is going to be one of those technologies that drives this whole area to finally get cleaned up.


Maybe my recollection is different than yours but didn't many of those technologies actually come from commercial and professional applications only to be adapted to consumer use? I know the ENIAC and UNIVAC were 29 and 24 years respectively before the Altair 8800 and more than that before a practical personal computer. And the Ethernet, GUI with a pointing device, laser printer, WYSIWYG text editing, object-oriented programming, bitmap graphics and even the personal computer concept were all results of Xerox PARC looking to develop products and technologies for business applications.

That is the way things were for many years where business, research and government applications were what justified the investment in researching and developing new technologies. Then people using those technologies and products at work wanted to apply them at home and companies started seeing the potential profit in also adapting them for consumer use. As the consumer electronic market grew that changed and the potential profit started to be more in the consumer applications. That meant companies developing technologies and products specifically for the consumer market and only adapting them to professional and commercial applications if the related markets and profits justified doing so.

I think another significant change occurred when the developers of some of media technology and related products also became involved in the media content. Now they had a vested interest in developing technology and products that supported and protected their content which often included proprietary content delivery and protection methods.

The net result of all this is products and technologies that were developed for the consumer market without any consideration for or plan to adapt them to other applications. In fact, some of the related developers and manufacturers probably intentionally avoid being the next Xerox PARC or diluting their consumer brand names and thus limit the potential of their technologies and products being applied to other applications.

Creating market consumer demand is a very strong tool in creating associated markets but it can only go so far before the practical considerations of those other applications intervene. Those considerations may be details such as connector types or more encompassing issues such as the ability to be applied in larger scale systems and commercial environments or even the simple fact that rapid obsolescence that may be acceptable in consumer electronics is not viable for most commercial and professional applications. And I think we are getting to where those considerations becoming a factor for many new media technologies. I am encountering an increasing number of commercial and professional end users that have been through the process of trying to integrate consumer technologies and experienced the related challenges. I also think that HDMI/DisplayPort/Thunderbolt and HDCP woke the professional and commercial AV industry up to the fact that things have changed and they can no longer be purely reactive to what goes on in consumer technology.

So I'm not sure that some consumer technologies will have the impact on professional/commercial applications that some believe. In fact I'm actually seeing a bit of a backlash from both professionals and end users against trying to integrate some consumer technologies and products into markets and applications for which they were not intended.


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## Chris15 (Aug 6, 2012)

The Hotspot approaxch is fine until you are in a corporate or institutional environment that prohibits personal WiFi and has Rogue AP detection constantly running on their wireless network.
Take for instance the ban on personal WiFi at the London Olympics and the enforcement thereof...


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## museav (Aug 6, 2012)

EricE said:


> Yup - that is the biggest issue. Thankfully, if you have a newer device, it's easy to get around. From the Kanex FAQ section:
> 
> *Do I need a wifi connection for this to work?
> AirPlay Mirroring requires Apple TV and iOS device to be on the same network. If you have the new iPad 3rd generation or iPhone 4S it has a personal hotspot that Apple TV can join which will form a network of the 2 devices.
> ...


I'm with Chris, that may work well in some situations but is not viable in others and is likely not a practical solution for venues to address presenters walking in with their own iPads, tablets, etc.

I'm very curious as to how the Kanex device linked is legal. The similar HD Fury devices skirt the legal issues by stating that they are specifically intended to be used at the display inputs in order to convert VGA inputs into HDMI inputs and that they are not intended to be used to convert HDCP protected HDMI content into accessible high resolution analog signals. However, that seems to be exactly what the Kanex device is claiming is its purpose. They also seem to suggest it can be used to bypass the Analog Sunset for Blu-Ray players.


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