# Black Smoke in Fogger



## Greta

I want to create a black smoke effect, and the venue I am working in is very limited as far as resources goes. I have this little unit (make unknown, model SPEF-80) that has a great output, but I am wondering if anyone knows what I should use to get the black smoke effect. Thanks!


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## Les

Well, problem is there's no way to actually get it to do that; much less a safe way. The "smoke" from a fog machine is actually a vapor, and is white by nature.


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## jglodeklights

Yup, it isn't something you can do. The droplets are only white because of reflection/diffusion of light through them.

You can get smoke powder cartridges that are colored. IE THESE

The other option is to go quite heavy with the fog and shine (closer to 90 degrees from the audience the better) some lights with a Congo Blue in them to color the fog.


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## Greta

Unfortunately, congo, or any other color won't work, need it black. Sweeney Todd in a very intimate venue...other ideas? Think cheap...
Cheers!


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## jglodeklights

You need something that burns. The smoke cartridges I linked to or something of their kind in combination with a fan like the Bowens JetStream is your option.

The particulate needs to be solid and not translucent/transparent/reflective. Simple as that. Foggers aren't designed for that. Nor are hazers or low lying fog.


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## DuckJordan

and remember some places consider anything that burns to be pyro so make sure you check with the AHJ.


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## jglodeklights

And as it is an intimate venue.........it might be more than a little noxious.


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## Van

Black smoke in an enclosed environment, such as a theater, is a really, really < let me add one more> *REALLY* bad Idea. If for no other reason than it_ will _set off you smoke alarm. Second Reason: black smaoke would impair the vision of the audience in any attempt to leave the theater in case of an emergency. Third: < and my chemistry knowledge is limited> the amount of particulate you'd have to put in the air to acheive a "black Smoke" would be toxic at best. Change the idea, change the colors, change the Directors mindset.


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## Grog12

What exactly is the desired effect you're trying to achieve?


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## Les

Van said:


> Black smoke in an enclosed environment, such as a theater, is a really, really < let me add one more> *REALLY* bad Idea.



I tried to find a clip but failed, so text will have to do...

Corky St. Clair in _Waiting for Guffman_:

> My first show was _Barefoot in the Park_, which was an absolute smash, but my production on the stage of _Backdraft_ was what really got them excited. This whole idea of 'In Your Face' theatre really affected them. The conceptualization, the whole abstraction, the obtuseness of this production to me was what was interesting. I wanted the audience to feel the heat from the fire—the fear—because people don't like fire, poked, _poked_ in their noses. You know, when you get a cinder from a barbeque right on the end of your nose, and you kind of make that face, you know? That's not a good thing. And I wanted them to have the sense memory of that. So during the show I had someone burn newspapers and send it through the vents in the theatre. And well, they freaked out, and 'course the fire marshal came over, and they shut us down for a couple of days.



If you haven't seen _Waiting for Guffman_, drop what you're doing and buy it now!


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## philhaney

I'm going with Van on this one.


Van said:


> Black smoke in an enclosed environment, such as a theater, is a really, really < let me add one more> *REALLY* bad Idea. If for no other reason than it_ will _set off your smoke alarm. Second Reason: black smaoke would impair the vision of the audience in any attempt to leave the theater in case of an emergency. Third: < and my chemistry knowledge is limited> the amount of particulate you'd have to put in the air to acheive a "black Smoke" would be toxic at best. Change the idea, change the colors, change the Directors mindset.


 
To get black fog (smoke) you have to put particulate matter into the air, and all it takes is for someone in the audience to be asthmatic or allergic to it. 


Les said:


> So during the show I had someone burn newspapers and send it through the vents in the theatre. And well, they freaked out, and 'course the fire marshal came over, and they shut us down for a couple of days.



The quote is from a show, but I've seen the AHJ come out on more than one occasion, and it's never pretty. I'm all for "in your face" theatre, *as long as it can be done safely*.


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## MPowers

First, what others have said..... SAY NO!!!! As others have said to create black smoke (no such thing as black fog or black vapor) there has to be a heavy carbon base particulate, or, in other words, SOOT. Not only will it create breathing problems, issues with the alarm system, it will also coat everything in the theatre with a black oily film. Everything. The pipes, the seats, the curtains, the lighting instruments, the electrical cable, the rigging wire rope cable, the roof beams, the truss, the ....... EVERYTHING! The walls, the carpet, EVERYTHING! The lobby near the doors to the auditorium, the dressing rooms, the costumes, EVERYTHING!!

Have you ever wondered where the term "Spring Cleaning" came from? I grew up in a small mountain town in Colorado. Heat and cooking were coal stove. Coal makes nice dark black smoke especially during the start up. Once burning hot the particulate was so small you couldn't see it in the air, but all winter long it kept building up on every possible surface in the house. When the weather was warm enough to open windows, SPRING CLEANING Time! Every wall and ceiling in the house, every rug,every floor became 4 shades lighter. This was with the black particulate source (anthracite coal) burning at 1500F to 2200F at the flame source, about 900F within the fire box, and as I said, the black was invisible in the air. Cool down the fire enough to make big black visible smoke and you'll have a soot problem in your theatre bad enough to make the Mary Poppins sweeps look pristine clean. 

Did I mention the soot goes EVERYWHERE?

Black smoke, kids, don't do this at home!


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## Chris15

I have a recollection, accurate or otherwise, that smoke tends to be corrosive as well as its other undesirable attributes...


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## Tex

Les said:


> If you haven't seen _Waiting for Guffman_, drop what you're doing and buy it now!


"People don't like to have fire poked... poked in their noses."


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## Robert

You might try and see how using a video projector of smoke and fire would work. You could use it on the smoke or just on the set. This might give you a reasonable effect. Not a perfect solution, but at least it is a working solution.


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## shiben

Just put a bunch of fog and use warm lights. People will get the memo its supposed to be fire


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## SanTai

White fog is the way to go in a theatre and we've got some suggestions of how the thread starter could get the desired effect. Hope it is okey with a small hijack of the thread.

How would you do it outside, say simulating a house fire, for film/tv or one of those combat/war re-enactments. Except using pyro/smoke cans, is there a smoke generator that can create a controlled black smoke effect.


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## MNicolai

SanTai said:


> White fog is the way to go in a theatre and we've got some suggestions of how the thread starter could get the desired effect. Hope it is okey with a small hijack of the thread.
> 
> How would you do it outside, say simulating a house fire, for film/tv or one of those combat/war re-enactments. Except using pyro/smoke cans, is there a smoke generator that can create a controlled black smoke effect.



In film, there are a number of ways it's done, but nothing that would work well in a theatre. Ever see an episode of "Rescue Me"? Anything that looks like fire or smoke is done with either live pyro or CGI. S5E1, where the firefighters are responding to a call in a warehouse and end up walking into a fire that's burning up illegally stored fireworks -- that scene was shot with fireworks actually being shot at the actors on set, and then The Molecule went back and added CGI on top of it. Here's the final cut of that scene.

Here's a great example of some of the before/after shots of the VFX added by The Molecule for Rescue Me. The Molecule also has a couple other great scenes from Rescue Me on their site like this one and this one that believe it or not, were not filmed with live flames.










Even if there was a non-pyro way of creating a black smoke effect in a theatre, it would be an incredibly bad idea because you and your audience would be unable to distinguish the difference between an actual fire and your effect, there would be health concerns having everyone breath in smoke-filled air, and as others have mentioned, the smoke would create a powdery build-up of soot on all of the surfaces in the theatre.

It's commonly accepted that white haze/fog is a visual effect, whereas when people see black smoke, they assume it is an actual fire and that the smoke they are inhaling is toxic.

If there was a way to produce a black atmospheric effect that was safe (which there isn't), there are still plenty of other reasons not to use that effect. If it was an outdoor event in an open, unconfined area, then you possibly would not have to be concerned with audience and cast members inhaling the smoke or becoming panicked by it, but you could never use that sort of effect indoors safely.


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## Goatman

I would experiment with projecting a black screen onto smoke. Or even just very dim NC lights.


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## Joshualangman

"projecting a black screen"

Not possible. Projecting black is projecting nothing, i.e., no image. Same effect as not turning on a light.


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## StradivariusBone

Joshualangman said:


> "projecting a black screen"
> 
> Not possible. Projecting black is projecting nothing, i.e., no image. Same effect as not turning on a light.



You could use a "black light". 

Kidding aside, that might look cool. I wonder if vaporized fog juice would fluoresce though.


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## JD

Well, you could always dump a toner cartridge into an air cannon if you don't mind being lynched!
(Joke, please don't  )
Lighting is the only answer, and possibly you could talk them into dark blue smoke and light the fog with some stage level side lights.

..


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## techieman33

I think a Robe light darkener or two would fit the bill nicely.


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## Goatman

Read my previous post as: "Project a blank, 99% black image".


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## StradivariusBone

Goatman said:


> Read my previous post as: "Project a blank, 99% black image".



Projectors don't project black images though. By projecting variously colored light, the contrast between the bright and the dark is what tricks your eyes into seeing the black screen. Without that contrast present the projector throwing a blank screen is just dimmer than a white one. Now it would be interesting to try and find a way to contrast the "black" smoke with something brighter and whiter that might trick the viewer into thinking it's black and not white. Flashbacks to the blue/black/white/gold dress fiasco might ensue...


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## Goatman

Well, you guys know what I mean. While the projector may not technically be projecting "black", to human eyes it is, therefore the perception is that it is black, even if it TECHNICALLY isn't.

You knew what I meant.


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## robmerow

I don't think it works quite the way you're thinking it does. Projecting a 99% black from a projector is (more or less) like saying you should project 1% white... Which really doesn't get white fog any closer to looking like black fog.

Like other members have mentioned - black projection only looks 'black' due to the contrast between white light beside less or no light.


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## Goatman

Well sorry.


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