# Quick question- what can I run in a cable raceway?



## soundtech193746 (Nov 12, 2017)

hey all,
I’m doing some clean up work in a HS lighting booth and one of the ways I’m cleaning the wires up is with a cable raceway. I wanted to know if any problems could occur for running a extension cord wire, DMX, ETCnet through the same raceway. The distance in the race way is only about 5 feet. Is this okay or should I do something else?
Thanks in advance!! P.S- I attached an image of what I currently have done (not done yet)


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## Les (Nov 13, 2017)

I would put the 120v in one raceway and the signal/data cable in another. Not only will this give peace of mind against potential interference, but think if that 120v cord shorted to your DMX or ETCnet. Probably would not end well. The NEC has a similar stance in not allowing low voltage in the same conduit as line voltage.


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## Amiers (Nov 13, 2017)

Parallel is no good perpendicular is good. That’s the rule of thumb. 

If you are going to run them in the same raceway separate it somehow.


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## RonHebbard (Nov 13, 2017)

Amiers said:


> Parallel is no good perpendicular is good. That’s the rule of thumb.
> 
> If you are going to run them in the same raceway separate it somehow.


@baileypl @Les @Amiers Parallel in a common conduit, metallic or PVC or in Panduct or similar is not normally a problem *IF* signals are of similar types and levels. Examples: All balanced microphone level. All balanced line level. All low impedance speaker level. All 70 volt speaker level. I'm sure you've got the idea. Mixing unbalanced with balanced and microphone levels with speaker levels are definite no, no's. Power wiring and signal level in the same raceway is DEFINITELY verbotten. 
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.


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## JD (Nov 13, 2017)

Although this is a cosmetic raceway that is not part of the building and simply used to organize the room, a line voltage extension cord needs to be the odd man out. Current spikes in the AC cable can induce voltages in the other cables. Ironically, the surge suppressor at the end makes it worse! When the MOVs clamp a surge, the wiring feeding the suppressor see a current spike, which induces a small EMP which will get picked up in the signal cables. May or may not be enough to cause a problem, but life has enough problems. No point dancing on a mouse trap.


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## epimetheus (Nov 14, 2017)

While I agree with the comments above in principle, practically I see no issues with what you've done. We all know that cables of different signal types are going to be mixed together as you approach the end devices, especially under a desk. The problems with running power and signal cables parallel to each other are exacerbated by the length they are in parallel. Short distances like what you've got here don't concern me in the slightest. Try to keep them separate as much as possible, but I wouldn't jump through hoops under a desk.

Also, I think the NEC does have an exception to running low voltage and line voltage in the same raceway. If the low voltage signal is related to what the line voltage is supplying power to, and the low voltage cable has a voltage rating appropriate for the line voltage, then the low voltage is allowed to occupy the same raceway. The situation I always think of for this is 0-10V dimmable fluorescents, since the low voltage is controlling the ballast supplied by the line voltage, you're allowed to share a raceway.


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## RonHebbard (Nov 14, 2017)

baileypl said:


> View attachment 15553View attachment 15554View attachment 15555
> 
> hey all,
> I’m doing some clean up work in a HS lighting booth and one of the ways I’m cleaning the wires up is with a cable raceway. I wanted to know if any problems could occur for running a extension cord wire, DMX, ETCnet through the same raceway. The distance in the race way is only about 5 feet. Is this okay or should I do something else?
> Thanks in advance!! P.S- I attached an image of what I currently have done (not done yet)


 @baileypl I'd draw the line at water, hot, cold, or chilled along with pneumatics and natural gas. 
Maybe that's just me, I never was a major risk taker. 
To be a trifle more serious, Panduct used to offer products with a longitudinal dividing wall to accommodate a degree of physical separation covered by one snap-on cover spanning the full width. I used to employ those products in AC servo automation drive applications and found them quite useful along with similarly partitioned plastic / nylon drag-chains. In the case of the drag-chain products, our shop even ran compressed air for pneumatic caster jacks within the same compartmentalized drag chain as AC servo motor drives, DC brakes, limits and resolver cables.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.


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## soundtech193746 (Nov 14, 2017)

JD said:


> Although this is a cosmetic raceway that is not part of the building and simply used to organize the room, a line voltage extension cord needs to be the odd man out. Current spikes in the AC cable can induce voltages in the other cables. Ironically, the surge suppressor at the end makes it worse! When the MOVs clamp a surge, the wiring feeding the suppressor see a current spike, which induces a small EMP which will get picked up in the signal cables. May or may not be enough to cause a problem, but life has enough problems. No point dancing on a mouse trap.



Excuse my ignorance, but I’ve seen in different installs, power strip wire being ran with data cable. By being ran, I mean a small 5 foot run with cables ties. This is just for cosmetics. I don’t know much about power, but does it matter what gauge/shielded level of the cable is? And also, what would be the best way to do this right?


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## soundtech193746 (Nov 14, 2017)

epimetheus said:


> While I agree with the comments above in principle, practically I see no issues with what you've done. We all know that cables of different signal types are going to be mixed together as you approach the end devices, especially under a desk. The problems with running power and signal cables parallel to each other are exacerbated by the length they are in parallel. Short distances like what you've got here don't concern me in the slightest. Try to keep them separate as much as possible, but I wouldn't jump through hoops under a desk.
> 
> Also, I think the NEC does have an exception to running low voltage and line voltage in the same raceway. If the low voltage signal is related to what the line voltage is supplying power to, and the low voltage cable has a voltage rating appropriate for the line voltage, then the low voltage is allowed to occupy the same raceway. The situation I always think of for this is 0-10V dimmable fluorescents, since the low voltage is controlling the ballast supplied by the line voltage, you're allowed to share a raceway.



Do you think I should change anything or is it okay? The wires are pretty thickly shielded. Thanks for the reply !


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## RonHebbard (Nov 15, 2017)

baileypl said:


> Do you think I should change anything or is it okay? The wires are pretty thickly shielded. Thanks for the reply !


 @baileypl Personally, I would use divided Panduct, or an equivalent brand, with a longitudinal divider and run the power in one side by itself. If I was forced to run the power in a section with other wiring, my first choice would likely be 70 volt speaker lines, if I had any to include, followed by low impedance speaker lines. I would NEVER intentionally route power with microphone level wiring, balanced or unbalanced. You may twist my arm into running adjacent with +4 balanced audio but I'd neither be happy nor go home proud of myself. 
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.


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## soundtech193746 (Nov 15, 2017)

RonHebbard said:


> @baileypl Personally, I would use divided Panduct, or an equivalent brand, with a longitudinal divider and run the power in one side by itself. If I was forced to run the power in a section with other wiring, my first choice would likely be 70 volt speaker lines, if I had any to include, followed by low impedance speaker lines. I would NEVER intentionally route power with microphone level wiring, balanced or unbalanced. You may twist my arm into running adjacent with +4 balanced audio but I'd neither be happy nor go home proud of myself.
> Toodleoo!
> Ron Hebbard.


How much does Panduct typically run and where can I find it?


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## sk8rsdad (Nov 15, 2017)

baileypl said:


> How much does Panduct typically run and where can I find it?


Electrical and electronics wholesalers and retailers, some big box retailers, pretty much any shop that does commercial cable management can source it. Price varies depending on the model and quantity. Google can help you find a local supplier and they can provide a quote.


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## RonHebbard (Nov 15, 2017)

sk8rsdad said:


> Electrical and electronics wholesalers and retailers, some big box retailers, pretty much any shop that does commercial cable management can source it. Price varies depending on the model and quantity. Google can help you find a local supplier and they can provide a quote.


@baileypl Panduct is a Panduit product / brand name available in different widths, different depths, longitudinally divided and non-divided and also in different colors with grey being the original and most commonly stocked. Distributors routinely stock in 4' lengths, some may have longer lengths available depending upon the actual brand they stock. Cuts easily with a fine (32 TPI) hacksaw and mitres nicely for neat corners. 
*NOTE:* When ordering, snap on covers are not normally included thus remember to order covers.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.


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## JD (Nov 15, 2017)

baileypl said:


> Excuse my ignorance, but I’ve seen in different installs, power strip wire being ran with data cable. By being ran, I mean a small 5 foot run with cables ties. This is just for cosmetics. I don’t know much about power, but does it matter what gauge/shielded level of the cable is? And also, what would be the best way to do this right?


The key takeaway is that wires do not have to be electrically connected to transfer power. Best example is your car radio antenna has an electrical signal induced in it by another piece of wire (the transmitter) many miles away. Low frequencies don't travel very far and need long lengths to induce anything of significance. AC is pretty low at 50/60 Hz. Still, transient spikes on an AC line tend to be much higher in frequency and _may_ cause problems. Do I think a 5 foot run will cause a problem for you? No. As you pointed out, people do it all the time. Can it be capable of causing a problem? Yes. In performance based operations, if a problem is going to occur, it will usually occur at the worst possible time! The best practice is to try to eliminate all potential problems, thus reducing the list of variable to track down when things do go wrong.


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## Footer (Nov 15, 2017)

So, every FOH snake that has power taped to it is no good? Every loom that has power and DMX taped to it is also no good? Yes, I get the theory, but in practice I have never seen an issue. I got cable w/ power, signal, and data all in one jacket and it works fine.... and been like that for 15 years.


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## gordonmcleod (Nov 15, 2017)

In most cinema booth i use the wiremold 4000 raceways that have a optional barrier that seperates it into two divisions one is low voltage /data/audio the other is line voltage
At least in Canada one cannot have line voltage in the same raceway as lowvoltage
https://www.legrand.ca/wiremold/rac...ay/4000-large-raceway/4000-large-raceway.aspx


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## FeRDNYC (Nov 15, 2017)

JD said:


> The key takeaway is that wires do not have to be electrically connected to transfer power.
> [...]
> In performance based operations, if a problem is going to occur, it will usually occur at the worst possible time! The best practice is to try to eliminate all potential problems, thus reducing the list of variable to track down when things do go wrong.



+1. When the MTA embarked on their ambitious project to bring cellular service to all of NYC's 200+ subway stations, an undertaking which involved cabling the entire length of the subway system and installing cell "towers" at platform level in the underground stations, each new equipment install was connected up to two completely separate pipes, housing (as labeled) "RF CABLE" and "POWER AND FIBER". Because they want the system to actually work, and stay working.

(This also highlights one great advantage of optical fiber: It laughs in the face of EMI. But if you're using standard electrical cabling, induction is the enemy.)

Back in the 1990s, when I was working for the company that ran AOL's dialup network, one of our engineers obtained a measurable improvement in performance/reliability for our modem equipment racks just by re-cabling them so that all of the power lines ran up one side of the cabinet, and all of the data (ethernet, serial comms, telco digital drops) ran up the other side. And that's total last-mile (last-seven-feet, in fact), though in an admittedly high-capacity situation.


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## Collin L (Nov 15, 2017)

I know that I've seen raceways that have both Stagepin outlets from the dimmers, and 5-pin DMX outlets. Out of the end of the raceway there is only 1 bundle carrying both the 20 dim lines and the 2 DMX runs. Are we saying that these installations don't comply with the NEC Standards?


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## FeRDNYC (Nov 15, 2017)

Footer said:


> So, every FOH snake that has power taped to it is no good? Every loom that has power and DMX taped to it is also no good? Yes, I get the theory, but in practice I have never seen an issue. I got cable w/ power, signal, and data all in one jacket and it works fine.... and been like that for 15 years.



Not "no good". Just suboptimal. It'll work fine, often for years or decades as you've seen... until it doesn't. You may never encounter a situation where it "doesn't", in practice. Or, the problems may not be enough to be noticeable. (Ethernet, for example, will manifest EMI problems as bad packets. But TCP automatically retransmits, so other than a small percentage of bad packets in the interface statistics you'd likely never even see any effects from the interference.) Or you may end up in the situation where that combined power+audio run starts buzzing only when someone plugs a vacuum cleaner into the circuit (which of course they shouldn't do), whereas having the power line separated from the audio would prevent the vacuum cleaner from creating noise on the line.


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## MNicolai (Nov 15, 2017)

Signal separation is more critical for large bundles of cables, higher current power runs, and primary infrastructure cabling. In practice, you have to be pretty reckless to break something though. Coiling your analog audio snake around a UPS, putting kinks or sharp bends in your data cables, etc. Portable cabling at racks, booths, on-stage, are less forgiving in that they aren't shielded in conduit but the parallel distances are much shorter. It's more important that your electrician keeps the cable groups separated when they pull the wire in the walls and ceilings so you can afford to play it fast and loose on-stage without disruption.

Now if you use untwisted THHN for speaker wires out to your speaker clusters and bundle all your THHN together, there's actually a fair chance if you turn the system up and mute the right cluster you'll hear the right signal out of the left cluster. Twist the THHN pairs together and that problem goes away as far anyone can hear. Again though -- more a problem for long distances. This is the kind of problem that will present with +50' of parallel bundled untwisted wire. You'll be hard-pressed to notice anything at all at +10'.


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## derekleffew (Nov 15, 2017)

baileypl said:


> ...cleaning the wires up is with a cable raceway.


You have a five foot section of this or similar mounted to the wall just above the floor?



I think there's a nomenclature issue here. That's a cable management duct (or ductway), not a raceway (ignoring that some mfgs/vendors call it a raceway). It's not intended for single conductor, single insulated wires. It is intended to make cables look neater, which is your application. Running an extension cord, CAT5, and DMX cable in it for five feet will be no problem. (Insert NEC language here about "permanently" installing an extension cord, i.e. affixed to building.)

I've run CAT5 (carrying MA-net) for 300' alongside three sets of 4/0 feeder on the floor with no issues.


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## RonHebbard (Nov 15, 2017)

Footer said:


> So, every FOH snake that has power taped to it is no good? Every loom that has power and DMX taped to it is also no good? Yes, I get the theory, but in practice I have never seen an issue. I got cable w/ power, signal, and data all in one jacket and it works fine.... and been like that for 15 years.


 *@Footer* @FeRDNYC has already posted this but I'll repeat it anyway.
*It will work flawlessly until it doesn't.* When it quits working, Edsel Murphy will have a hand in choosing the time, you can be sure. 
One of the joys of doing things right ALL THE TIME is having fewer things to check, repair, replace when problems arise. *Not IF but WHEN.* 
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.


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## Ron Foley (Nov 15, 2017)

the photo above is a new LEX product
i guess they do not have a problem with DMX running next to 120VAC

for lighting control
just keep the high voltage away from the low

audio really should have separation.


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## Footer (Nov 15, 2017)

RonHebbard said:


> *@Footer* @FeRDNYC has already posted this but I'll repeat it anyway.
> *It will work flawlessly until it doesn't.* When it quits working, Edsel Murphy will have a hand in choosing the time, you can be sure.
> One of the joys of doing things right ALL THE TIME is having fewer things to check, repair, replace when problems arise. *Not IF but WHEN.*
> Toodleoo!
> Ron Hebbard.



Then every venue that has an FOH trough should have two. Electric cable picks should have two. Maybe DMX comes from SL, power comes from SR. I have Meyer designed cables that pack 110v, RMS, and analog signal all into one cable. Never had an issue. This is a nice theory, but in practice with shielded cable in the real world I have yet to see any issues.... nor have I heard of anyone else having an issue. Hell, I see L21-30's on FOH snakes all the time. In installations, sure, do it. But day to day stage operations I would not worry about it.


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## josh88 (Nov 15, 2017)

Like Footer said, we have a ton of snakes and looms with audio and power bundled in the same run and we send them out on a daily basis on all of our jobs and I'm willing to say 99% of the time IF there is an issue, it isn't related to the proximity of the cables. I can't honestly think of anybody having an issue. Maybe its just luck... maybe its maybelline.


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## RonHebbard (Nov 15, 2017)

josh88 said:


> Like Footer said, we have a ton of snakes and looms with audio and power bundled in the same run and we send them out on a daily basis on all of our jobs and I'm willing to say 99% of the time IF there is an issue, it isn't related to the proximity of the cables. I can't honestly think of anybody having an issue. Maybe its just luck... maybe its maybelline.


My deceased co-worker and friend of nearly five decades had a saying: "It only works for 'them' cuz they don't know it shouldn't." Greg based his saying on things humming and / or cross-talking whenever he broke the rules of separation and crossing at right-angles. 
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.


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## josh88 (Nov 15, 2017)

RonHebbard said:


> My deceased co-worker and friend of nearly five decades had a saying: "It only works for 'them' cuz they don't know it shouldn't." Greg based his saying on things humming and / or cross-talking whenever he broke the rules of separation and crossing at right-angles.
> Toodleoo!
> Ron Hebbard.



We all know the reasons why we "shouldn't" but like I said, it hasn't ever caused a problem. We almost always have more separate xlr to run something if we needed to, but it always sits unused in a case because the looms with power and audio or power and data have been consistently problem free. For years. We did a show in a convention center a couple weeks back where we had nl4/nl8 for widelines and xlr and a ton of power all running on top of each other and no problems. I don't know. I get the reasons, but haven't had to deal with them in reality.


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## RonHebbard (Nov 15, 2017)

Footer said:


> Then every venue that has an FOH trough should have two. Electric cable pick should have two. Maybe DMX comes from SL, power comes from SR. I have Meyer designed cables that pack 110v, RMS, and analog signal all into one cable. Never had an issue. This is a nice theory, but in practice with shielded cable in the real world I have yet to see any issues.... nor have I heard of anyone else having an issue. Hell, I see L21-30's on FOH snakes all the time. In installations, sure, do it. But day to day stage operations I would not worry about it.


*@Footer* @Dionysus Believe as you like. I found and corrected an installation in @Dionysis 's building in London, Ontario, Canada where a 70 volt paging amplifier was sweating to death with it's neon output indicator always illuminated solidly 24 / 7 whether pages were in progress or it was quiescent. I traced the fault to oscillation above audibility due to one of the amp's microphone inputs being routed over from his McManus Studio in the same 1/2" EMT as the amp's 70 volt output. The mic line was a foil shielded balanced pair of Belden 8451. I can't recall what the output wiring was, possibly it was 24 gauge Bell quad with two conductors for the 70 volt output and the second pair being used for low voltage DC to toggle a 70 volt attenuator's bypass relay. This was in 1983. Re-routing the foil shielded microphone-level pair out side the conduit solved the oscillation problem even though the 8451 ran parallel to the EMT from the rack in the basement SM office all the way down the corridor ceiling to DSL of the McManus. The 1/2" EMT was definitely grounded by the metal ceiling structure which supported it throughout its run. 
*EDIT:* I stand by what I posted: It will work flawlessly until it doesn't.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.


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## JD (Nov 15, 2017)

I can actually think of a lot of cases where things went REAL south. A local sound company blew 17 cabinets in 30 seconds before sound check in what we now remember as "The Doyelstown County Massacre." The culprit was a single speaker line bundled with mic lines that sent the system into ultrasonic oscillation. Now, modern sound equipment is a little more resistant to ultrasonics then things in the 80's were, but by far this is not the only case. More recently, (8 years ago) I found myself called out for the second time to a house to replace a network adapter. The second time out, I clipped the cable ties that held his cat5 to the power cord going to his surge suppressor. End of issue. Do people do these things every day and not have a problem? Yes. Does it sometimes cause a problem? Yes. It's so much simpler to simply avoid things your gut tells you aren't right. As I said before, why add another variable if you don't have to? No point dancing on a mouse trap.


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## Ron Foley (Nov 15, 2017)

agreed
you can have really bad things happen when high voltage gets linked with low voltage.
(many stories )


the best design is to have isolation between high voltage and low voltage
the electrical code demands this, when addressing installing systems in buildings

in equipment there is always high voltage and low voltage
and that is dealt with differently than building wiring

as an example
( a dimmer rack has the DMX wire in very close proximity to the mains)
(the new dimmer strips being manufactured have the control wire (DMX) running in the same enclosure)
(the new LED fixtures have power and control next to each other where they plug into the fixture)

regardless, we are dealing with a one installation in this thread 
a five foot run of cable to clean the underside of control counter

clean your booth up to be safe keep the high voltage cables away from the low voltage cables

that deals with the Electrical and control

Audio , speakers and mics
that can be a different story as IF from the AC lines can potentially be induced on the audio

with that said i will leave that part of the conversation to the audio and AV folk.


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## RonHebbard (Nov 16, 2017)

JD said:


> I can actually think of a lot of cases where things went REAL south. A local sound company blew 17 cabinets in 30 seconds before sound check in what we now remember as "The Doyelstown County Massacre." *No point dancing on a mouse trap.*


 @JD You've reminded me of this twice now. "The early bird gets the worm while the last mouse gets the cheese." 
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.


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## Daniel Yannantuono (Nov 16, 2017)

baileypl said:


> View attachment 15553View attachment 15554View attachment 15555
> 
> hey all,
> I’m doing some clean up work in a HS lighting booth and one of the ways I’m cleaning the wires up is with a cable raceway. I wanted to know if any problems could occur for running a extension cord wire, DMX, ETCnet through the same raceway. The distance in the race way is only about 5 feet. Is this okay or should I do something else?
> Thanks in advance!! P.S- I attached an image of what I currently have done (not done yet)


There are a lot of good ideas being floated around in this forum. If you have 2 hours and want to be extremely careful you can use 3/8 all thread and run a 4 " wide cable tray above and parallel to the original raceway for your data lines to get some breathing room or run flex conduit above the raceway and terminate the flex conduit into a 4x4 open ended electrical box behind your console/patch bay.


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