# Micing tap dance ?



## JSFox (Apr 22, 2007)

A school I'm helping out does 2 or 3 events each year that include tap dance routines, usually with the jazz/blues band or orchestra. They've complained that in the past the tappers get drowned out by the band. The floor is made up of 3' x 3' masonite like material over plywood over cement. Trying to figure out the best way to mic the taps without getting too much of the band.

PZM's taped to the floor?

A couple of shotguns, one from each side?

??

Thanks,


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## taylorjacobs (Apr 22, 2007)

they make actual floor mics for this purpose they are pretty inexpensive to rent


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## soundlight (Apr 22, 2007)

We've actually had to do this twice this year. PCC-160's from the front, overhead hanging choir-style mics pointed straight down if needed (with pattern that will restrict orchestra pickup), and PCC-160's from the back of the dance part of the floor if feasible.


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## stantonsound (Apr 22, 2007)

My favorites for tap dance are Crown PCC-160, Crown PZM 30-D, or the Shure Beta 91 PZM.

As stated before, these can be rented from most any proaudio house or from another school/college.


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## Van (Apr 22, 2007)

I've always had real good luck with 2-4 PZMs on the apron. When you say taped I hope you mean gaffing the PZM directly to the floor. I had to trouble shoot for a guy once, he couldn't figure out why the sound was so muted. I found he had used foam double stick tape on the underside of the mic to mount them to 1x1 pieces of masonite. The tape acted like a little shock absorber for sound.


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## jonhirsh (Apr 23, 2007)

Wireless mics right on the shoes work really well. 

JH


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## Schniapereli (Apr 23, 2007)

I just finished worked on our school musical "Crazy for You" (which is a tap show, if you anyone may not have heard of it...I hadn't) (That is also why I haven't posted for a while.)

We used 2 of the Crown PCC 160's, and they worked very nicely. It was mentioned here before that someone talked to a tech for 42nd street, who told them that they actually implant mics in their shoes.
I talked to another sound guy, and heard that they just use the MKE-2, and ran the cord up their fishnet stockings. They only miked one shoe of most of the cast, but the leads had both shoes miked. (I'm not exactly sure how you are supposed to spell mic-ed without it looking like mice-ed...)


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## jwl868 (Apr 23, 2007)

Maybe the band just needs to back off on their volume.


Joe


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## mbenonis (Apr 23, 2007)

Finally, a use for PCC's!


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## CURLS (Apr 23, 2007)

I've had great luck with 91's right across the front of the stage and yes i have used them directionally pointed towards there feet tilted up on a plexiglass material which worked wonderfully. Also if you have a shotgun or two pointing one on little mic stand on the sides of the stage pointing across the stage work for good isolation.

Yea yet another use for pcc's among so many others.


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## avkid (Apr 23, 2007)

Every year we host the showcase performance for a dance school that has multiple world champion tap dancers.(bragging done ) My limited inventory forces me to use my five AT857QMa's on the apron bent down to face the deck.


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## nrcafootball68 (Apr 23, 2007)

We used pzm's taped to the apron for our musical last year. we were going to do that again this year, but ran out of channels


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## avkid (Apr 24, 2007)

nrcafootball68 said:


> We used pzm's taped to the apron for our musical last year. we were going to do that again this year, but ran out of channels


One word-submixer.


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## nrcafootball68 (Apr 24, 2007)

avkid said:


> One word-submixer.



That's what we were going to do, but it got shot down by our tech director. I can't remember what the reasoning was, but there was a good reason.


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## Andy_Leviss (Apr 25, 2007)

mbenonis said:


> Finally, a use for PCC's!



Yeah, but as everywhere else, there are better mics for the job!

Me, I think they make great spatulas


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## Thomas (May 7, 2007)

I've used lapel mics taped with micropore to the dancer's foot- from what I hear the show TAP DOGS uses fullon SM58s though... that's an easy way to go, if there aren't too many dancers...


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## drawstuf99 (May 7, 2007)

They did 42nd Street here for a summer stock show and my friend who worked the show they had mics on like, 4-5 dancers' shoes for the tap numbers (which had about 20+ people. Thats all I know unfortunately.


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## JSFox (May 8, 2007)

Thanks everyone. The PZM approach was producing too muffled of a sound so we ended up using a couple of Shure KSM109's facing away from the band towards the house (and thus the tappers). Worked fairly well.


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## zuixro (May 16, 2010)

[Bumping a 3 year old thread]

I'm working on a dance recital now. The teacher has asked us to mic the tap numbers for the camera. We have some PCC-170's, SM58's, and SM81's. I'm debating about how to do it (especially considering we only have two channels left on the board. If they had waited a month, this wouldn't be a problem. We would have a shiny new M7 (I hope), and we could giver her all the mics she wants)

I put out one of the PCC-170's during rehearsal yesterday, and it sounds really good... when they're close to the mic. When they get about to the center of the stage it starts to fade out. They're also picking up a lot from the stage monitors. I'm gonna reposition the monitors tomorrow and see if that helps. We have no compressors or gates or anything to process the signal (not even a graphic EQ). 

I'm gonna spread out two of the 170's across the edge of the stage, which will help even out the pickup, but I still don't know what to do when the dancers head upstage. We may end up renting a console for this (sad, I know). If we do, I'll try hanging some 81's from a batten overhead (no one mentioned that. Think it will work?). We also, apparently, have some two PZM's (of unknown model), but they have some unknown problem. I'll probably play around with them too. Would they pick up further on stage than the 170's?


rant:

Another problem we're having is that we've completely run out of outputs on the console, and the teacher wants a feed to the camera. It looks like we're going to have to run it out of the "2 track out" (RCA connectors), but that's PFL so we have exactly zero control over what it sounds like. (there's not even a volume control on it)

We're even using the monitor outs. Those are also PFL so again, the only control we have is through the gain knob. This also means that we have to turn the gain down on the tap mics instead of just muting them. (it's a cheap SoundCrap board)


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## MisterTim (May 16, 2010)

zuixro said:


> I'm gonna spread out two of the 170's across the edge of the stage, which will help even out the pickup, but I still don't know what to do when the dancers head upstage.



I can pick up tapping 25' upstage easily with PCC-160s. Now the PCC-170, on the other hand, is still a boundary mic but intended for a completely different purpose, namely lecterns and board rooms. There's really nothing you can do to fix the problem. Also, watch out for phasing issues if you have a spaced pair of mics trying to pick up tapping far upstage. 


> We also, apparently, have some two PZM's (of unknown model), but they have some unknown problem. I'll probably play around with them too. Would they pick up further on stage than the 170's?



Won't hurt anything to try them. 



> Another problem we're having is that we've completely run out of outputs on the console, and the teacher wants a feed to the camera. It looks like we're going to have to run it out of the "2 track out" (RCA connectors), but that's PFL so we have exactly zero control over what it sounds like. (there's not even a volume control on it)


Henry Engineering | Patch Box II - Analog Stereo | PATCHBOX II


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## zuixro (May 16, 2010)

So I read Crown's: "Boundary Microphone Application Guide":
http://www.crownaudio.com/pdf/mics/127089.pdf
(warning, PDF)

All in all, very informative. Gave me some ideas to try.

Two of my favorite quotes were:


> To reduce pickup of the pit orchestra, put a 2' x 2' piece of 4" thick Sonex foam about 1" behind each PCC.



Yeah, the director's gonna go for a 2'x2' square standing up behind each mic. (At least that's how I understand it)

and:


> Tape a PZM to the drummer’s chest.



Not sure if they were serious about that one. 




MisterTim said:


> I can pick up tapping 25' upstage easily with PCC-160s. Now the PCC-170, on the other hand, is still a boundary mic but intended for a completely different purpose, namely lecterns and board rooms. There's really nothing you can do to fix the problem. Also, watch out for phasing issues if you have a spaced pair of mics trying to pick up tapping far upstage.



Yeah I don't know who's big idea it was to get 170's for a 45' deep stage. I'll push for some 160's for our next musical. (Though I would like to try a 170 on the podium for one of our future events)

I know the spacing rules. 3x the distance from the source to the mic. The above PDF mentioned 20ft as being adequate space too. 



MisterTim said:


> Henry Engineering | Patch Box II - Analog Stereo | PATCHBOX II



Haha, that would help... We really need another mix though. Might just have to split the booth feed and go to the camera.


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## Scarrgo (May 18, 2010)

+1 on PCC 160

Very strong, durable, easy to use(but, you got to point them the right way)

In the all the years I been doing this stuff I have never seen one break till last year, someone(probably a ten year old(nothing personal)) kicked the top half from the bottom...snapped the screws off. Crown replaced the parts for free...well, how much can a couple of set screws be, but they did it, and I am thankful.

Sean...


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## JCarroll (May 19, 2010)

zuixro said:


> Not sure if they were serious about that one.



I'm pretty sure it's a joke. Neil Peart of Rush had one taped to his chest for one of the recordings... The PZM didn't make the final mix.


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