# Floor Mics



## Jeepfrk97 (Jan 22, 2004)

Hey im just wondering if people like to use floor mics rather than shotguns or teasers?


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## Nephilim (Jan 22, 2004)

If you're referring to 'plate'/PZM/PCC mics, they have their uses. It depends on the set and the stage in question - you need a flat area around the mic that isn't going to be stepped on too much - floor mics pick up way more traffic noise than other kinds.

One cool trick the venue audio tech came up with at CETA was mounting miniature cardioids onto the set. This is almost impossible with any thrust set or arena stage, but if you're on a proscenium it should be easy to hide miniature cardioids much closer to the action.


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## The_Terg (Jan 22, 2004)

Jeepfrk97 said:


> Hey im just wondering if people like to use floor mics rather than shotguns or teasers?



Its my main source of amplification, unfortunately.

No money for wireless lavs, terrible gain-before feedback, so shotguns are out of the question. We hang 4 mics as well, but the floormics get the best pickup.

My only problem is that you gotta be on your feet with them. When I run shows with floormics (all of them...) I need to be at the board constantly; following actors across the stage and knowing when to kill the mics for a loud noise. Its a pain in the arse to mix, but I think it gets a good amount of gain if used properly...


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## Nephilim (Jan 22, 2004)

I don't think I've ever had a show involving mics where I had a chance to relax  certainly not CETA... 18 lavs, 8 stage mics.... FUN


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## Jeepfrk97 (Jan 26, 2004)

well for the musical were using 5 pzm's we also have 9 wireless lavs. maybe some shot guns we have 4 of em i donno if well need them


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## wemeck (Jan 28, 2004)

Jeepfrk97 said:


> Hey im just wondering if people like to use floor mics rather than shotguns or teasers?



We use little cm-700 on these cute little stands that we screw into the stage floor.


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## The_Terg (Jan 28, 2004)

Basically, we use 3 Crown PCC-160's on the very front of the stage, evenly spread. We back them up with 4 CM-30 hanging mic's, which move around. For the most part, one is foward stage left, foward stage right, rear stage left, rear stage right.

The CM-30's get rather poor gain-before-feedback, they love to suck in high freqencies, so not only do they feedback easily, but I need to keep them rather strictly EQ'ed to keep em in line.

Hence, the PCC-160's are my best friend. Its a pain, yes, that you have to be mindful of crashes and falls and taps. But I just have to be careful, and if its a musical, ill put gaff tape on the bottom to mute a little of the rattling. So really, I have little choice but to rely on the floormics. Shotguns would be WAAY too sensitive for our system.

We do rent lavs AS often as possible, provided that the director has money, and wants to use em.


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## wemeck (Jan 28, 2004)

Are sister school GBN (of Hazing Fame last May) Swear by their Crown 160's as well. I was just talking to GBN's resident TD/Set/Lighting/Sound Designer about them.


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## The_Terg (Jan 28, 2004)

wemeck said:


> Are sister school GBN (of Hazing Fame last May) Swear by their Crown 160's as well. I was just talking to GBN's resident TD/Set/Lighting/Sound Designer about them.



Yea, my favorite thing is to take some gaff tape, and stick it in little bubbles to the bottom. Ill Stick the edge of the tape, pull it up to make a little loop (or Flap) in the tape, and then stick the other edge on, forming a small air pocket. Being that our stage is fairly decrepid, it gets rid of the floorboards rattling...

More importantly tho, they are fairly sensitive mics. I like how the responce is somewhat channeled towards the front. In some ways, they are like little shotgun mics, being that they work best when someone is facing them.


The rightmost mic (Not the nearest one) pics the person (circle) up the best.
(Pardon the PAINT drawing... my main computer is feeling sick...)


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## Nephilim (Jan 28, 2004)

The_Terg said:


> I like how the responce is somewhat channeled towards the front. In some ways, they are like little shotgun mics, being that they work best when someone is facing them.



PCC = Phase Coherent *Cardioid*

Cardioid meaning exactly that it picks up better from 'on-axis', or in front than from behind or to the sides.


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## Pocado (Feb 19, 2004)

Yea, at my school we have two floor mics that I'm always yelling at the actors not to touch, but they pick up great. The one bad thing is they pick up EVERYTHING. We also have two hanging PZM's, if that's their name. I have a question about shotgun mics...we have two huge a** shot guns and we can't find anyplace to hook set them up so they are perfect for the stage. So, how are they suppose to be used? We tried hanging them from the catwalk but we got major feedback from them picking up the speakers...and we also hooked them up at the base of the pit facing up...that didn't work too well either. Any advice?

Pocado


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## wemeck (Feb 19, 2004)

Pocado said:


> Yea, at my school we have two floor mics that I'm always yelling at the actors not to touch, but they pick up great. The one bad thing is they pick up EVERYTHING. We also have two hanging PZM's, if that's their name. I have a question about shotgun mics...we have two huge a** shot guns and we can't find anyplace to hook set them up so they are perfect for the stage. So, how are they suppose to be used? We tried hanging them from the catwalk but we got major feedback from them picking up the speakers...and we also hooked them up at the base of the pit facing up...that didn't work too well either. Any advice?
> 
> Pocado



The best use for shot gun mics is on a boom or a sound tech in the wings or in the house aiming the mic at the performers.


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## anticowboyism (Mar 24, 2004)

We use the crown 160's alot for plays. We have a Varicurve preset for them that scoops a little low mid resonance. If you follow the actors around and boost the mic they are closest to, you can get pretty good results. It's kind of a pain, but sometimes necissary. A good tip is to outline the onstage side of the mics with bright spike tape so the actors don't step on them.

The best use for shotguns IMO is for production crew audio, not for feeding into the house. We have 2 Sennheisers mounted on our balcony rail aimed at the stage that provide very consistant sound for the crew backstage.


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## avkid (Mar 24, 2004)

somebody buy me floor mics, then i will tell you how i like them


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## mixsa (Jul 9, 2004)

one technique that i saw once that seemed to work quite well was shotguns mounted on stands in the orchestra pit a little above the stage level - this picked up the speaking without picking up stage floor noise


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## mixsa (Jul 9, 2004)

one technique that i saw once that seemed to work quite well was shotguns mounted on stands in the orchestra pit a little above the stage level - this picked up the speaking without picking up stage floor noise

havent had a chance to play with pzm - it would be fun to see how well they work sometime


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## The_Guest (Jul 9, 2004)

BTW, with just about any show you can't leave the console. I hope you people are doing that. The current production I'm working on has 14-15 lavs (4-5 w/intense rotating schedule...very intense), 3 floor pccs, 2 grid stage hang, 1 wing hang, and some channels will be compressed and ran through an effects processor. You defintely can't leave the console for more than 2 seconds. I hope that you people are mixing your lavs constantly, you're not just setting levels and mute/unmute when needed. A mix should be dynamics along with the actors voice. Mixing is like playing an insturment, pretty much all musical techniques are involved in it. I primarly play guitar (playing for years), I took piano lessons for years, and have currently been hobbying the drums. Mixing w/enough channels can be just as tough as playing these insturments. A good mix isn't a good sound check, set and forget. Anyway, I've gotten great results with the PCC160s and AT853Rx, they pick up just enough of chorus and ambient vocals. The downstage ones pick up pitt and tap dancing quite well, its nice to run these throw the monitors to ensure the musical cues. BTW, I agree with you in not buying wireless. You know my modo for lavs, If you can't afford nice wireless and lots of it, just don't buy it. Its horrible watching a show listening to cheap noisy wireless w/all the crackling and buzzing or only hearing a small portion of the cast with lavs. Inconsistant volume levels are a killer. Sorry, I went a little off topic, but I had to vent some of these things out. 



The following is crossposted from "Mics" in the Audio Questions forum,
http://controlbooth.com/postt1131.html&sid=75aabeea7a6e481d9a7d176b00024d90 

Audio Technica AT853 are great hanging mics, they're also amazing drum overheads. They have a nice thin cable built in too. They can be used on stands as well. They have really nice rigging accessories. Get the Pro45 if you can't afford the AT853s. BTW, sm81s should never be hung, they are meant for close to near range applacations. 

Crown PCC160s, you have to play around with them a lot to get good GBF. I once you used 8 of these in a musical: 5 downstage and 3 upstage hidden in the set. Make sure the downstage ones are placed evenly apart from each other. When working with DS boundry mics, always have a center point. So you should work in odd numbers. In theory you'd get more converage with more boundry mics and no center point, but you actually won't considering the center stage is always used and everyone sings into that location. This may sound stupid but I've seen this a quite a few times and its pethetic. Look under the mic and make sure the arrow pointing to your source, I've seen people prop up this mics on and angle vertically lol.


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## MikeJM (Jul 12, 2004)

Another microphone I have seen used as a boundary mic is the Shure Beta91. It is actually meant to be used for kick drums. You might have more trouble isolating them and preventing feedback than you would with a Crown PCC for example. The Beta91 is flat, where the Crown PCC has a directional side. With the use of a bounce screen, the Beta91 can be very successful. I have made these bounce screens by going to a store such as Michael's Crafts and buying those clear, plastic picture holders (not frames) and spray painting them black. The boune screen works very well, and is not a distraction at all to the audience, it actually makes things look more neat, and clean cut on stage. The bounce screen deflects excess noise from the pit orchestra and audience and makes the Beta91 much easier to work with. Well that was my first post, i hope it was helpful.
-Mike[/url]


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## The_Guest (Jul 21, 2004)

Here is a shot of one of the three bounce screens we're using in Fiddler on the Roof. They're transparent picture frames spray from a grocery store painted black.

http://msnusers.com/techphotospeter/fiddlerontheroof.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=209


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## MikeJM (Jul 22, 2004)

For the production of Fiddler on the Roof this summer (same production as Jeff) we also are using foam material that I attatched to the bottom of each boundary microphone (the PCC160s), these shock absorbers performed their duty well and allowed them to be of more use to us. As Jeff stated earlier, the bounce screens that I bought are plastic picture frame holders that run about $3 a piece. I spray painted them black, and put them in front of each Crown PCC160 on the edge of the stage. Due to the polar pattern of the mic, they werent of much help, but they did improve the look on stage, they did help block out some of the excess noise from the orchestra pit. If we ever plan to use the SHURE Beta91's as boundary mics, we could always use those bounce screens.


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## The_Guest (Jul 22, 2004)

Here is a shot of a PCC160 w/shock absorber and bounce screen behind it...
http://msnusers.com/techphotospeter/fiddlerontheroof.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=208


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## avkid (Jul 22, 2004)

floor mics have their uses in some instances


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## ricc0luke (Jul 22, 2004)

Last year I worked on a show that over half of the scenes took place right around a desk on stage. I was able to put a floor mic right on the desk! It worked really well for all of those scenes and had no problems other than once during a rehearsal an actor slamed a notebook right on the mic.... but she learned her lesson....


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## great_beyond (Jul 29, 2004)

Jeepfrk97 said:


> Hey im just wondering if people like to use floor mics rather than shotguns or teasers?




I was wondering what "teasers" are? I have not heard this term in relation to Sound


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## MikeJM (Jul 30, 2004)

Yeah I was wondering about that


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## The_Guest (Jul 30, 2004)

My only guess is they're hanging mics, hiden behind a teaser. Maybe he just refers to them as teasers for short.


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## The_Terg (Aug 5, 2004)

The_Guest said:


> Here is a shot of a PCC160 w/shock absorber and bounce screen behind it...
> http://msnusers.com/techphotospeter/fiddlerontheroof.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=208



That looks absolutely wicked! what material is the bounce screen, and where did you get it from?
Does the screen have any impact on the amount of gain-before-feedback?
DO you have a picture of it from the house?


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## great_beyond (Aug 5, 2004)

does the bounce screen affect the frequncey responce or the mic? Woulding the bouce screen create phase cancelations, and adversly affect the sound quality of the source?


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## The_Terg (Aug 5, 2004)

great_beyond said:


> does the bounce screen affect the frequncey responce or the mic? Woulding the bouce screen create phase cancelations, and adversly affect the sound quality of the source?



I betchya its too close to create phase problems. Phasing problems often occurr with more latency, and bounce screens have negledgable latency.


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## MikeJM (Aug 5, 2004)

It's all about what type of microphone you are using the bounce screen for. I used some on a Crown PCC 160, it wasn't completly necessary, it just helped drain out some excess noise from the orchestra pit, and it was more of a cosmetic thing, they looked much more neat and organized. I have also used bounce screens on the Shure Beta91 (usually used as a kick drum mic). I placed it in the rear and that deflected acess noise from pit orchestra as well as audience. It has a cardiod pickup pattern, and the bounce screen was placed in the rear so this did not severly effect the pickup pattern of the mic. You shouldn't have any phase problems, and it will not affect the sound quality from the source.


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## The_Terg (Aug 5, 2004)

Hmmm. Yea, I am eagerly searching for ways to get even better gain-before-feedback from our system, which relies mostly on the Crown 160 boundary mics. Highschool plays come across fine, with plenty of gain, but middleschool shows are a serious problem, because we cannot get enough gain into the system, and cannot afford wireless lavs.


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## MikeJM (Aug 5, 2004)

The_Terg- Where are your house speakers located in relation to where your placing your PCC 160's?


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## The_Terg (Aug 5, 2004)

MikeJM said:


> The_Terg- Where are your house speakers located in relation to where your placing your PCC 160's?



JBL main mix speakers are mounted about 12Ft off the floor, about 2-3 ft PAST the edge of the stage (and hence 2-3 ft AWAY from the PCC 160's. During theatrical stuff, I usually keep the main mix speakers at 3/4 to 1/2 level on the condenser mics, and leave it up for the effx and music. The side fill speakers, (NEAR DT-2's and in celing speakers) usually carry the bulk of the signal.

I could post pictures, if I found them.


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## The_Guest (Aug 6, 2004)

The_Terg said:


> The_Guest said:
> 
> 
> > Here is a shot of a PCC160 w/shock absorber and bounce screen behind it...
> ...



Thank you for your comments.

Well it all started while I was mixing a rehersal, and my designer pointed out some of the ambient noise coming from the hang and boundary mics. We also received some bad noise from all the stomping and dancing on stage. A lot of it was transferred through the stage, there was some foam padding type material (made of rubber I believe) lying around. And the designer just cut muiltiple peices (layers) out to match the shape of the PCC160. Again as Mike said, the bounce screen didn't really affect any performance (good or bad) of the mic. This is because of the mic's half supercardioid (about half omni-directional) polar pattern. At most, the screens may have added a little GBF by blocking the mics out from the mains directly above. If there was any sort of boost in performance, it would not be significant. Or at least not very noticeable. Basically the bounce screens were used for primarly cosmetic reasons.

The bounce screens as previously stated are those transparent picture frame/stands found at any grocery or general drug store spray painted black. These are only a few dollars, they were taped down to the stage. They look fantastic from the house.

Here is the best house shot I have on the site... http://msnusers.com/techphotospeter/morefiddlerontheroofpictures.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=228

Another bounce screen shot...
http://msnusers.com/techphotospeter/fiddlerontheroof.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=209

Look around at the fiddler albums there are more shots of the boundary mics.


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## The_Guest (Aug 6, 2004)

The_Terg said:


> MikeJM said:
> 
> 
> > The_Terg- Where are your house speakers located in relation to where your placing your PCC 160's?
> ...



Sounds like your mics are a bit too close to the mains. The last time I used boundary mics they were probably 18'-25' above the mains, the mains are aimed slightly towards the center of rear house. The GBF wasn't quite good, these mics were the least of my feedback problems. I could easily acheive levels way past unity gain w/ unity fader level, all while the main mix at unity of course.

I'm not sure what you meant by "I usually keep the main mix speakers at 1/2 to 3/4 of the condenser mics." Are you referring to the main mix level in referance to the boundary mic fader levels? Typically, the main mix should be up at unity, which is proper. This gives greater headroom, because the you do not have to run channel gain high to get a volume while the main mix is far below unity level. In all of my mixing experiences, I rarely needed to adjust the main mix level. Primarly to take out feedback quickly and easily when I can't find out what is peaking on a system or with gain levels I'm not familar with (ie first day of running lavs, lack of familarity with the gain). Having the main mix up is an optimal setting for acheiving GBC (gain before clip). As you all know you can only crank the gain so hard before it starts peaking and clipping, even with the main mix down.


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## Hughesie (Aug 27, 2005)

floor mic's are crap any movement near the mic's makes a terrible noice my school has them (i don't use them)


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## AVGuyAndy (Aug 27, 2005)

What kind of mics do you have?


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## Foxinabox10 (Aug 27, 2005)

That's why they should be isolated from the stage on a music stand perhaps.


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## Nephilim (Aug 27, 2005)

If you sit the PCC or PZM on some foam and high-pass filter the feed it'll be a lot better.

Man, it's been ages since I logged in here


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## AVGuyAndy (Aug 27, 2005)

I gaff the PCC160s right to the floor. No foam. They have great GBF, considering the distance. No noise from people walking either.


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## Nephilim (Aug 28, 2005)

They probably still have those nice shock-absorber rubber feet though, right?


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## AVGuyAndy (Aug 28, 2005)

Possibly, I can't say that remeber what each of my mics have, or don't have. 

Also, Hughesie REALLY needs to get rid of that avatar!!!!!!


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## Foxinabox10 (Aug 28, 2005)

Our Crown PCC-160's don't have any feet on them. We took old mousepads and put them under the mics to absorb shock.


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## soundlight (Oct 27, 2005)

Crown PCC-160's are really good. I've tried about 2 or 3 other kinds of floor mics, and they have all failed. Take some foam from your next change of a stage light bulb, and cut it in to the shape of the PCC-160, and tape the whole deal down. Sounds nice, just make sure that you're far enough behind the mains. Side fills aren't usually the problem, it's the overhead cluster that doesn't like the apron positioning, but we still get very little feedback with the PCC 160's, if we get any.

We've rented them in the past, but we just sent in a purchase order for three (only $700!)


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