# CD Ripping - Fair Use or Copyright Infringement?



## MNicolai (Aug 26, 2008)

A lot of people in the sound industry rip CD's, add songs to their collection, etc. But what if CD ripping was illegal?

Before you run back to your iTunes or Rhapsody, I warn you of DRM and have a couple articles for everyone to read before they respond.

RIAA: Those CD rips of yours are still "unauthorized"
Could iTunes users suffer the same fate as Yahoo Music users if iTunes were to fail? - MAC.BLORGE


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## lieperjp (Aug 26, 2008)

Interesting articles.

I would think Fair Use. I wonder if everyone in the RIAA carries tons of CDs with them where ever they go so they can play their music. Probably not. If iTunes were to go belly up, there would be a huge uproar. (Or at least, I would.) 

What I don't understand is how ripping a copy for myself is considered stealing. Either way, I'm still buying the song. I would listen to it on my Computer, anyway, so why not store it on my computer and let the CD rot in my closet? It's a pain to have to get a CD out to only listen to one or two songs, and if I had to do that I probably wouldn't even buy any songs at all, or rarely. 

Personally, I think that once I buy the song, I should be able to do with it what I like, as long as I don't sell/give it to another person which means they won't buy it. That, I think, is stealing in a round-about sort of way - stealing a profit that theoretically exists. Is it stealing if I were to give the song to a person who never would have bought it in the first place? There are so many what-ifs, too much grey area. I guess this system makes it black and white, at least to an extent. 

It's capitalism, pure and simple.


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## icewolf08 (Aug 27, 2008)

Once again I fail to understand what the people at RIAA are thinking. Besides the fact that every one of them probably has their own iPod filled with songs they ripped off the CDs they own. The problem is that technology has progressed too fast and has left organizations like RIAA antiquated and out of date. I also maintain that people would be more likely to buy music if there was more good music being released instead of 13-15 track albums with 1 song worth listening to. When all you want is that one song, it is too easy to get it at no cost.

Music has to be easily portable and random, non-linear accessible or people will riot in the streets. We can't go back now that we have the technology. I think RIAA is fighting a loosing battle, they just either don't realize it, or are too stubborn to admit it.


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## cutlunch (Aug 27, 2008)

In New Zealand just this year we have had our copyright law updated. So it is now legal for you to format shift ie rip, if it is just for your use. 

But when they made the changes they put on a sunset clause that this particular part of the law will cease to be legal in a few years. This is so apparently they can reveiw it to see if the law is working OK.

People were upset this format shifting doesn't apply to video formats.


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## Sayen (Aug 27, 2008)

That's the obvious catch - the music industry failed to anticipate and take advantage of the technology. There was originally a great plan for downloaded music - you would go to a music store, listen and find the music you want, and then the clerk would burn you a copy. Somehow the big record companies didn't catch on to the idea of giving the user control.

As far as fair use copies for yourself, it was explained to me by a copyright lawyer that it would be like stealing an audio book, just because you own the novel. I'm not sure I agree with that, and I'm sure not buying duplicates of all my old CDs just to run on my iPod.


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## MNicolai (Aug 27, 2008)

Logically, I have every one of my CD's ripped. When I purchase new DVD's, I back them up too. It's not so I can burn copies for other people or then give my physical copies away; it's so that when the discs inevitably become scratched, I don't have to worry. The worst culprit is my car's CD player, because of the nature of pushing the CD in, rather than using a tray.

I raise to you a hypothetical situation. There are no questions of doubt about this theoretical person, it is what it is. Joe is a smart guy. He rips everything for backups and puts them in his My Music folder. He doesn't download illegally, or deliberately allows access to his files by anyone except those using his computer. Joe's 11-year old son, Mark, installs a P2P program, for the sake of downloading PDF e-books and other legal items. What Mark doesn't know, is that this same P2P program has set itself to open the My Music folder up to anyone and everyone. Now Joe's got a notice from the RIAA in the mail that he either has to pay $8k and admit wrong, or take them to court.




Q1: How many lawyers want to take a case up against the RIAA, that could last for over a year, is likely to be lost, and risk not being paid in the end; be it that their clients are unable to afford it, or they carry own of those "No fees unless we win" clauses?
Q2: Lawyer's fees vs. Settlement Cost, which is more likely cheaper?
Q3: Having done nothing wrong, would it be unreasonable for Joe to feel intimidated by the reputation of the RIAA and immediately reformat his hard drive(s) and try to hide any record of his music collection?
Q4: Is it worth the risk that if a case is lost in court, the consequential fines imposed could be upwards of $100k?
Q5: What would you do?

Unrelated to the case of Joe, we can't forget about DRM. Let's say you purchase an iPod, and download all of your tracks via iTunes, and then 5 years down the line your iPod breaks. You are not either forced into 3 options. Move on, purchase a new Apple-branded player, or purchase an off-brand (for whatever the reason; better service, higher quality, less proprietary, cheaper, the off-brand product fits you better than the Apple product line). OK. Now what? Thanks to DRM, you can pretty much say goodbye to that music collection if you want to purchase an off-brand. Let's also say for whatever the reason you need to replace your computer because it's crashed indefinitely. Now you're up the creek, and without a paddle, because you can't back-up that iTunes library. You _can_ re-download all of your music *once* with iTunes, but how much good does that do you if over the course of 8 years, this hypothetical situation presents you with both hard-drive failure and a new computer? Toasted.


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## Footer (Aug 27, 2008)

Amazon Music, don't use itunes, ever, for buying music. Everything on amazon is DRM free and drops into itunes automatically. Also, you are technicly breaking the DMCA whenever you break any type of encryption, no matter why you are breaking it.


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## bdkdesigns (Aug 27, 2008)

The new versions of iTunes have the ability to look at your iPod and look at items you have purchased. As long as you have authorized the computer, I think you can authorize up to 5 computers at a time to your account, you can click on the tab labeled "store" and then "check for purchases". This dumps any purchased item from your iPod onto your authorized computer. Currently I have three authorized computers that have my music that I have purchased. My desktop, my laptop, and my shop computer at work. 

When I am done with grad school, I will simply walk into the shop, open up iTunes, click on "store", and then click on "Deauthorize Computer" and then that computer is off my record. So really the only way I can see being without any of my items would be if all of these computers crashed along with my iPod.


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## DavidDaMonkey (Aug 27, 2008)

Here's another part of the issue for you. Lots of the shows that we do are dance recitals and the like. Instead of having to switch CDs and keep up with all of them, I just rip everything into my laptop and put it into Qlab the moment they hand me the CDs. We won't even get into the issue of whether I keep the songs on my laptop after the show, but for the run of the show, is this legal?


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## gafftaper (Aug 27, 2008)

DavidDaMonkey said:


> Here's another part of the issue for you. Lots of the shows that we do are dance recitals and the like. Instead of having to switch CDs and keep up with all of them, I just rip everything into my laptop and put it into Qlab the moment they hand me the CDs. We won't even get into the issue of whether I keep the songs on my laptop after the show, but for the run of the show, is this legal?



Do you have an ASCAP license through which you have paid the rights to use the music in a public performance? I thought so.


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## photoatdv (Aug 27, 2008)

I wonder just how many of the freelance sound guys/gals out there get handed CDs with songs from lime wire to use for shows? I would guess it is close to 100%. Besides wouldn't it be up to the show's music director or whoever put the CD together to take care of performance rights? I would think the tech has to assume that they did. Not that I do sound for dance type things-- I'm more the wild and crazy lights kind.


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## Van (Aug 27, 2008)

Maximum PC has been publishing a lot of articles on Fair Use laws and DRM issue for a while now. I admit to siding with their judgement. Copying and backing up for personal use is a legal, viable interpretation of Fair Use laws. DMR schemes which disallow an individual to backup and copy personal use versions are tatamount to racketeering. 
That being said I've heard a couple of interesting arguements from several different folks, one said that Fair Use only applies to the use of the music in a Parody or "user generated format" like making a video to accompany the song. Everyone runnning around playing music for dances without an ASCAP/BMI license is clear under the Fair Use laws, but in Violation of the unions agreements and "public performance" clauses. Several coffee shops, bistros, and diners in the Portland area have been busted by ASCAP / BMI for Playing the radio as background music, playing songs from Ipods, or playing CD's even those purchased by the establishment specifically for the purpose of only being played on the stores pa system. 

Ah What a tangled web we weave, when at first we burn CD's.


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## Anonymous067 (Aug 27, 2008)

So I have a question.
I'm fifteen, and a month ago, I had a church program I played piano for/ran sound. (yeah..don't ask).

During set up and tear down, I patched my MP3 player into the mixer and put on my own tunes. They were subscription tracks from Rhapsody, so they weren't purchased.

Was this an illegal move?
Is somebody really going to prance into my church and tell me I'm getting fined for this? Really??? Doesn't sound realistic.


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## Van (Aug 27, 2008)

Is it likely ? No. Is it posible? Yes. Just ask the folks over at the Eastside Coffee House. Welcome to America .


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## gafftaper (Aug 28, 2008)

Does your church have an ASCAP/BMI license for using the music you sing on Sunday? They should. If you always sing out of a purchased published material then your rights are covered, but every time you make a songbook or power point projection of a song you need to pay a small fee to ASCAP/BMI in order to pay the songwriter for the privilege of using the music. When you buy sheet music that fee is included but when you reproduce it for others to sing off of you are stealing the songwriter's material. Will you get busted? Probably not. Is it illegal you betcha! My guess is half the churches in the country are breaking this law in some way and don't even know it.


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## MNicolai (Aug 28, 2008)

gafftaper said:


> Does your church have an ASCAP/BMI license for using the music you sing on Sunday? They should. If you always sing out of a purchased published material then your rights are covered, but every time you make a songbook or power point projection of a song you need to pay a small fee to ASCAP/BMI in order to pay the songwriter for the privilege of using the music. When you buy sheet music that fee is included but when you reproduce it for others to sing off of you are stealing the songwriter's material. Will you get busted? Probably not. Is it illegal you betcha! My guess is half the churches in the country are breaking this law in some way and don't even know it.



Only half? I'd lean more towards, every church that has anything but completely live music.


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## Sayen (Aug 28, 2008)

MNicolai said:


> Only half? I'd lean more towards, every church that has anything but completely live music.


I've worked plenty of church gigs where the church was good about paying the royalty fees.

A great anonymous poll would be to see how many theaters pay for the music they play, especially pre, post, and intermission, let alone song clips during shows.


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## MNicolai (Aug 28, 2008)

I would guess that the larger the church, the more likely it is they're aware of royalty fees and such. When it comes down to the smaller churches, I don't know that they care so much, and more importantly, are oblivious to the fact they're are even fees in the first place.


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## museav (Aug 28, 2008)

Another aspect that has come up is how and where you store any media. The argument is that if it is stored on a shared drive, then it is no longer private and you have made it available for distribution. Or if you copy it onto a computer that is not yours, say for a show at another venue, and then do not delete it afterwards, you have made a copy for use by others.


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## Anonymous067 (Aug 28, 2008)

gafftaper said:


> Does your church have an ASCAP/BMI license for using the music you sing on Sunday? They should.



I was referring to completely unrelated music I played over the speakers.


Wait, so every time we use song "X" (lets say once a month), we have to pay a fee? Yes, we have an ASCAP thing, but does that mean every time we use the song we have to pay a fee?
What about worship aids and powerpoints, every time we print it we have to pay a fee? Thats just pathetic.


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## Sayen (Aug 28, 2008)

Blah067 said:


> I was referring to completely unrelated music I played over the speakers.
> 
> 
> Wait, so every time we use song "X" (lets say once a month), we have to pay a fee? Yes, we have an ASCAP thing, but does that mean every time we use the song we have to pay a fee?
> What about worship aids and powerpoints, every time we print it we have to pay a fee? Thats just pathetic.


It's not pathetic, it's artists wanting to make a living. It's been a while for me, but the last time I worked for a church the licensing agency (CCLI?) made allowances for copies and media used in worship. The fees were not extravagant. 

In the case of church songs, check the artist websites. Many of them provide free media.


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## gafftaper (Aug 28, 2008)

Blah067 said:


> I was referring to completely unrelated music I played over the speakers.
> 
> 
> Wait, so every time we use song "X" (lets say once a month), we have to pay a fee? Yes, we have an ASCAP thing, but does that mean every time we use the song we have to pay a fee?
> What about worship aids and powerpoints, every time we print it we have to pay a fee? Thats just pathetic.



Every time a recorded song is played be it a DJ, Radio Station, or a Church playing background music on the way in a fee is paid via ASCAP or BMI so that the person who wrote the song gets a little money... the fee is only a few cents by the way. When a musician records a song they pay a fee to the writer for the privilege of using their music. When a church buys a Hymnal or some sort of song book not only are they paying for the book they are also paying the writer of the song for the rights to perform it publicly. The trick that catches churches is youth leaders print out home made songbooks, people make a quick powerpoint slide, or print the lyrics in a bulletin. Just think of it as any time an organization sings a song someone needs to pay the writer for their efforts to create that song. 

As Sayen said within the Christian community these fees are quite low and many songs are even free but if I remember right you have to pay a pretty low fee to CCLI and print specific info on everything. If you want your church to be compliant get in touch with the CCLI people and they will help you.


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## rdagit (Aug 30, 2008)

Ok, what happened at the Eastside Coffe House?

My expereince with small venues and small theatres is that a lot of them pay a one time fee to use anythign and everything to the copywright people. That way no matter what is played they are covered.

Something that I allways ask about before I go into a space, and make it their responsibility to make sure that they are covered, not mine. I know many a designer that has that written into their clause on their contract just in case.


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## Andy_Leviss (Aug 30, 2008)

gafftaper said:


> Do you have an ASCAP license through which you have paid the rights to use the music in a public performance? I thought so.




rdagit said:


> My expereince with small venues and small theatres is that a lot of them pay a one time fee to use anythign and everything to the copywright people. That way no matter what is played they are covered.




This is a whole 'nother long discussion, but ASCAP/BMI blanket licenses DO NOT COVER use in a dramatic performance. These uses are called "grand rights" and are licensed directly and individually by the publishing company of each piece. Blanket licenses from ASCAP/BMI ONLY cover background music that is not contributing to the dramatic piece.

--Andy


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## Van (Aug 30, 2008)

Andy_Leviss said:


> This is a whole 'nother long discussion, but ASCAP/BMI blanket licenses DO NOT COVER use in a dramatic performance. These uses are called "grand rights" and are licensed directly and individually by the publishing company of each piece. Blanket licenses from ASCAP/BMI ONLY cover background music that is not contributing to the dramatic piece.
> 
> --Andy


 
I think you are mostly right Andy. I believe the convention of Grand Rights only comes into play when dealing with musicals. Which is what I think you are saying, but I want to make sure it's clear. If I were to use "Rhapsody in Blue" as preshow music, and then at key times thoughout a performance as, say a recurring theme, this usage is covered by a Blanket ASCP / BMI. If however I were to write < OMG I just had to correct that I spelled right instead of write.> a musical which used Rhapsody in Blue as a central theme, and called specifically for it's use in subsequent productions, or even re-orchestrated, to make a few song out of it, that would require "Grand Rights" Since Grand Rights are typically negotiated with the publishers said rights are usually granted when one obtains the scores, or sides for the musical. Let's say you decided to do Bye, Bye, Birdie and everyone picked up a script at a bookstore, then the music director just went and found sheet music somewhere, and you produce the play without a contract with Samuel French < or whoever publishes it > this would be a clear violation of several different things, but among them would be a violation of grand rights. 

Again I'm am not saying Andy is wrong just doing a little clarification. 

< I'm not a lawyer, I've never played one on TV. I do look good in an Armani suit, carrying a breifcase however, and I'm very argumentative.>


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