# The Secret Garden Project



## zmb (Feb 24, 2011)

Saw this via the Rosco Facebook page: 
Pretty impressed with what can be done with projectors.

Anyone here worked with a set up like that?


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## lparks1 (Feb 25, 2011)

Is there a special projector required? What type of screens do you use? I would like to look into something like this for sure but no idea where to start.

Just found the article: http://www.facebook.com/RoscoLabs?s...-did-you-do-it-blog-contest/10150108493369081

The 6,000 lumen projectors x3 might be a little expense though, looks like about $5,000 a piece. I'm not sure how this would save on the cost of backdrops -- I can build some pretty mean drops for $15,000+screen material.


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## cpf (Feb 25, 2011)

I like the idea, especially since after you spent the $15000+ on projector+materials you can re-use them indefinitely. The only risk is that after paying that much you feel obligated to use them in every show you do, no matter whether they make sense or not. 

From an artistic standpoint: it looks cool, and the detailed and rich visuals being used really fit the show's theme. The whole instant-set-changes/split-set idea unlocks some interesting new scenes that would be hard to do with 'hard' sets. I'd love to be able to play with a setup like that, but it'll never happen...


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## LXPlot (Feb 25, 2011)

From a talent standpoint, it looks like you'd need a really talented projectionist to do that kind of thing, not to mention you'd need an expert in computer drawing technology to make the projection designs in the first place. You'd also need a decent lighting designer to make sure not an once of light spills and ruins the projections, a good scenic crew to help build the back walls that are projected onto, and a skilled rigger to set up the lighting positions required to get decent projections.


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## sk8rsdad (Feb 25, 2011)

LXPlot said:


> You'd also need a decent lighting designer to make sure not an once of light spills and ruins the projections.


It's not just about the spill. To preserve the illusion, each scene in front of the projection needs to be lit to look natural against the background while simultaneously conveying the mood called for in the script. That requires a truly talented lighting designer and serious coordination with a talented scenic artist to make it work seamlessly.


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## lparks1 (Feb 25, 2011)

> it looks like you'd need a really talented projectionist to do that kind of thing


From the way I was reading - once it is setup it's pretty much a press of a button to go from slide to slide. Getting it setup might be a little hard (making sure the projectors line up, etc) - but most of the matching can be done in the computer with pretty basic video software.


> It's not just about the spill. To preserve the illusion, each scene in front of the projection needs to be lit to look natural against the background while simultaneously conveying the mood called for in the script.


This is true. You'll notice in that clip that they kept most of their lighting design to specials rather than wash's. When they did do a few washes, they really did not fit in with the background. The Nighttime Garden scene looked good, but dark blue is more forgiving than some colors.


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## Footer (Feb 25, 2011)

Setting up the projectors is easy. Building screens is easy. Building content is very difficult. When people talk to projected scenery, they always go to the tech first. When in reality, if the content is crap, it all goes down the tubes. You can't just pull images off of corbis and project them. The projections need to be painted just like a drop would be painted. This type of design is a whole new world. Its one that very few theatre programs are teaching. Its a skill set that no other area of design currently posses.


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## museav (Feb 25, 2011)

You also need the stage space for rear projection, with a standard lens it looks like those projectors would have required at least a 22' throw distance behind the screen while with the optional short focal length, fixed lens it would require 10'-8" plus the depth of the projector. You could reduce the depth required with mirror systems but those have and associated, cost, complexity and light loss. It also used a separate computer for each projector. It can be an very powerful approach but definitely takes some planning and either budget or available resources to make it viable.


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## porkchop (Feb 26, 2011)

Footer said:


> Setting up the projectors is easy. Building screens is easy. Building content is very difficult. When people talk to projected scenery, they always go to the tech first. When in reality, if the content is crap, it all goes down the tubes. You can't just pull images off of corbis and project them. The projections need to be painted just like a drop would be painted. This type of design is a whole new world. Its one that very few theatre programs are teaching. Its a skill set that no other area of design currently posses.


 
When we used a similar, way less complex, single screen system on a road show. Setting up and focusing the projectors (2 interlaced Barco's, it was an arena show so we're talking 10k+ lumens) to the new guy because it was something that is really hard to mess up if you start out with decent instructions. On the other hand even our single screen content took a ton of, time patience and knowledge on the designers behalf. If you look at some of the models they show in the video they are all really complex, then you have to add texture, apply lighting, then you have to think about how your content will be viewed from various angles through out the venue, etc... This does look like a very interesting performance space, but the real magic on a projection designer's computer not in the technical application of the equipment.


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## SHARYNF (Feb 26, 2011)

when I have worked with this, we basically created a model of the stage set, and had an artist paint small backgrounds to scale,
This then allowed us to check how it would look, how we might light it etc

we then photographed/scanned the backgrounds and projected them. They key is in the quality and perspectives of the backdrops, using perspective lines and focus of the painted image to get the effect. 

So you need an artist with experience, but you do save in not having to paint a full backdrop 

Sharyn


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## lparks1 (Feb 26, 2011)

I don't think that even the design is hard. I mean, I have done a lot of matte paintings in Photoshop and in 3d software (which is all these are) -- and nothing they had there was too hard do. Where it would get tricky is understanding how the outside lighting needs to play into it and how to light the interior of the 3d models. Other than that, I don't really think this is out of the grasps of a half-way decent 3D Matte Artist.

The primary reason I would not pursue this for our company is that our set budget is regularly under $1,000. To invest in $20,000 worth of screens, projectors and computers is one thing -- but we would probably still have to pay a Matte artist $1,000 or more to design the digital drops for each show. While we might save on some shop time -- the savings IMHO would not makeup for the expense.


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## optheatre (Feb 16, 2012)

I love this idea but I have a couple of questions and I'm wondering if there is someone who can offer some advice. Do you think this could work with two angled 12 foot screens rather than 3; and does it require 6000 lumen for clarity or would 2 projectors at 4200 work. I am thinking of doing something similar in a smaller venue.
Thanks for any input.



zmb said:


> Saw this via the Rosco Facebook page:
> Pretty impressed with what can be done with projectors.
> 
> Anyone here worked with a set up like that?


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## ruinexplorer (Feb 16, 2012)

First off, welcome to the Booth. When you have a chance, drop by the new members forum to introduce yourself.

My assumption is that you would be using black masking in place of the upstage center screen? That would be your own scenic choice. To make this work with lower lumen projectors on that large of a surface would just mean that you would need to control your ambient light levels more (remember, those measurements were when the projector was new with a new lamp). Your image quality will also depend on the gain of your screen. Since you have the screen angled to the audience, you will want a lower gain which gives you a wider angle of view. 

Another thing to consider is your content. You will want to have brighter content for it to be more visible (limiting your contrast).

More later when I have time to give you a more thourough explanation.


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## techieman33 (Feb 17, 2012)

I don't see many theaters owning equipment like this, it is a lot of money to invest for limited use. Where I see this working is in rentals. Just like renting drops you would rent or buy the projection content from a design shop. Then rent projectors and screens from a local a/v company.


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## ruinexplorer (Feb 17, 2012)

You'd be surprised what equipment is more readily available to smaller theater companies. As the cost on projectors is coming down and the availability of used equipment, I am finding more and more companies who have the ability to do this, they just don't know how. However, I do not recommend companies to go out and purchase video equipment without having some experience with it first. Salesmen love ignorance.


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## techieman33 (Feb 17, 2012)

ruinexplorer said:


> You'd be surprised what equipment is more readily available to smaller theater companies. As the cost on projectors is coming down and the availability of used equipment, I am finding more and more companies who have the ability to do this, they just don't know how. However, I do not recommend companies to go out and purchase video equipment without having some experience with it first. Salesmen love ignorance.



I still think renting is going to be the better option long term especially if only being used for a couple of shows a year. There is also no maintenance to worry about, no expensive lamps to replace and when one pj dies a couple of years later your not looking everywhere for one that will match the others since they will no longer be available new.


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## shiben (Feb 18, 2012)

techieman33 said:


> I still think renting is going to be the better option long term especially if only being used for a couple of shows a year. There is also no maintenance to worry about, no expensive lamps to replace and when one pj dies a couple of years later your not looking everywhere for one that will match the others since they will no longer be available new.



Rental of new, modern gear is a better option for many people, but renting 4 100k projectors and screens and the like for a 2 week show is probably out of the show budget of a smaller theater, whereas 4 older used models being bought can be done with a different budget that might be larger.


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## ruinexplorer (Feb 18, 2012)

It really depends on the theater company, how they intend to use the equipment, and to what standards they need to meet as to whether purchasing or rental is the more viable option. After all, even large staging companies will end up cross-renting from a competitor if they only need specific equipment for one show. However, with a 4000 lm projector renting for $1000/week (rough estimate, depends on market), a decent b-stock model will be paid for within the first year of rentals (average use of around 3 times). Then the cost of a replacement lamp the following year (if it was needed) would be less than the cost of the rentals that year. Granted, if the theater were to do more complex blended images, rental may be a better option to match projectors, but that depends on how well your local rental company can provide balanced projectors. If you order three projectors, how close in age do you think the lamps will be? How about the hours of use on the units? It will still take a qualified projectionist to color balance the units and many theater companies do not yet have this kind of resource. 

I personally have been working with faculty at a number of universities to see how we can better develop the media programs to turn out qualified media/projection technicians. I admire any company that wants to venture into projection for their shows. It is a huge learning curve, not too dissimilar to when moving lights were first introduced into regular theater. It will take time to learn to do it right. I think there are a ton of big budget productions currently running who have learned how to do the technical side of projection but still lack the artistic subtlety to do it "right". I am very excited to see what new developments come out of some of the smallest companies who still have the desire to truly create something new. By owning some equipment, I think that the innovation will only have greater opportunity to thrive.


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## museav (Feb 20, 2012)

Projectors, especially those less than 5,000 lumens or so, have dropped in cost to where they are much more accessible to new applications. In the worship market it was not that long ago that projection was pretty much limited to mega-churches, now you see it being used in even the smallest churches.

However, scenic projection creates other challenges and considerations. For example, rear screen projection creates a back light source on everything on stage but you don't want to try to simply overpower that from the front as that would wash out the projected images. And while projecting behind those on stage is desired for scenic projection, it is not usually desired for many other uses of projection.

Many venues will invest in projection equipment because it allows them to use the venue out for business meetings, classes, presentations, etc. It has been years since I have been involved in a commercial or higher ed performance venue that did not at least consider projection and even most high school venues support it in some manner. However, most of those are considering applications other than scenic projection. It may not always be practical, but as it becomes more common I can see trying to accommodate or support scenic projection with the projection systems provided for venues.


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