# Broadcasting Legality Questions



## Jason Pratt (Feb 19, 2020)

Does anyone know the legality surrounding broadcasting school choral/band/orchestra concerts?

My school district has a public access channel for district specific events, and I am attempting to find out how to get approval (and from whom) to put the various concerts on this channel. I have heard from others in the past that the companies don't bother with high schools, but that answer isn't really sufficient for me or my district. Before we move our discussion along, I want to find out how to be 100% legal; as an artist myself, I also have a strong desire to ensure royalties and compensation are made appropriately.

If you have any information, please send it my way!


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## chausman (Feb 19, 2020)

You'll have to contact whoever the music is bought from, and see what they allow. More than likely, they'll all say no. Some may allow you to buy rights to broadcast it however.


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## Ancient Engineer (Feb 19, 2020)

There are three basic kinds of rights (at least here in the USA). 

Performance - the right to perform the piece in public.

Mechanical - the right to perform the piece to a physical deliverable (CD, DVD, cassette, etc.).

Synchronization - the right to perform the piece on a broadcast medium (radio, television, distributed access, etc.)

Performance rights are usually clearanced via a company like A.S.C.A.P., B.M.I., S.E.S.A.C., etc.)

Mechanical and Synchronization rights are usually paid directly to the copyright holder (probably a publisher).


I wish you luck. I do this every day and it is a major PITA.


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## Jason Pratt (Feb 19, 2020)

Thanks, this was helpful in pointing me in a starting direction


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## Jay Ashworth (Feb 19, 2020)

Ancient Engineer said:


> There are three basic kinds of rights (at least here in the USA).
> [ ... ]
> Synchronization - the right to perform the piece on a broadcast medium (radio, television, distributed access, etc.)
> 
> Mechanical and Synchronization rights are usually paid directly to the copyright holder (probably a publisher).



Not quite.

Sync rights are, rather specifically, the right to perform a musical composition *in synchronization with video*. Broadcasting per se is covered by performance rights, unless it's television.

None of this matters if the source material is out of copyright, like *nearly* all classical compositions, the only copyright that would inhere is in the performance itself, and the musical group owns that.


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## Ancient Engineer (Feb 19, 2020)

Jay, you are 100% right. 

I got busted once because the dramatic actor on screen *happened* to be walking in rhythm with the track... "Synchronized" on my performance license. No fines because I changed the speed of the video slightly to have him walk without rhythm... Ahh the power of old-school analog MII video.

Wow, I am old.


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## MRW Lights (Feb 19, 2020)

It depends... but your better bet might be to webstream. Today, most performance agreements allow live streaming of a performance, but it cannot be available for replay/download. Ironically I work in a broadcast department for an education institution and that's an easier route for us to go even though we own a broadcast station


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## Jason Pratt (Feb 20, 2020)

MRW Lights said:


> It depends... but your better bet might be to webstream. Today, most performance agreements allow live streaming of a performance, but it cannot be available for replay/download. Ironically I work in a broadcast department for an education institution and that's an easier route for us to go even though we own a broadcast station



Ah, this is interesting to me. Would I reach out to the companies that the specific teachers purchased their music from to inquire about this possibility or is there another agency I should reach out to?


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## MRW Lights (Feb 20, 2020)

Jason Pratt said:


> Ah, this is interesting to me. Would I reach out to the companies that the specific teachers purchased their music from to inquire about this possibility or is there another agency I should reach out to?



It depends  I would start with reviewing what agreements are already in place and determine if they allow for streaming, or prohibit digital transmission. After that, if it's not already there, you could see if the licensing agency would allow an addendum. Ultimately, you'll be dealing with whomever owns the copyright of the material and the performance rights.

Music can get a little complicated in that publishing, printing, performing and recording/broadcast can in theory all be handled by different agencies.

Start with the agreement you have and likely they can help put you in the direction of any other agencies related to the material.

And to the point earlier of these agencies not going after schools...they can, they do and they will. Recently experienced by this school's fundraiser embattled with the Mouse.... never square off against the mouse.


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## TimMc (Feb 20, 2020)

The primary rights agencies are BMI, ASCAP, and to a smaller extent, SESAC. Contact them to find out what licensing is available to schools. IIRC there is another group that focuses on public performance in Houses of Worship (and the various streaming/recorded ministries they use). Public performance rights generally do not extend to recording, synchronization, or off-premises delivery (streaming) of a public performance.

Any *broadcast* of a copyright work outside of regular radio transmission (radio has set rates for broadcast use) requires "clearance". Watch the credits on the singing competition shows, or a documentary (like Ken Burn's excellent "Country Music") and see how many people are involved in negotiating clearances.

The agencies that represent the composers of music, the authors of the words, and publishers of the resulting "work" do not care if a non-compliant presenter or performance is a non-profit, school, neighborhood tavern or restaurant. Their job is to represent the interests of rights holders and collect as much as is legally permitted for the use of those works.


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## spiwak2005 (Feb 20, 2020)

Jay Ashworth said:


> None of this matters if the source material is out of copyright, like *nearly* all classical compositions, the only copyright that would inhere is in the performance itself, and the musical group owns that.


The original source material may be out of copyright but I would suspect the "arrangements" that school groups play may still be under copyright by the arranger/publisher.


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## Jay Ashworth (Feb 20, 2020)

spiwak2005 said:


> The original source material may be out of copyright but I would suspect the "arrangements" that school groups play may still be under copyright by the arranger/publisher.



<sigh>

Well, now, that's a fair point too; depends on the rights they bought...


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## Jay Ashworth (Feb 20, 2020)

TimMc said:


> The agencies that represent the composers of music, the authors of the words, and publishers of the resulting "work" do not care if a non-compliant presenter or performance is a non-profit, school, neighborhood tavern or restaurant. Their job is to represent the interests of rights holders and collect as much as is legally permitted for the use of those works.



Just one of the many reasons why, given the explicit purpose of copyright noted in the constitution, I assert that we should go back to 14 years, and you can extend it indefinitely for 14 years each time on payment of a nominal fee, say $100.

Copyright, like Mickey Mouse, was not intended to live forever; it does not do its job that way.


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## sk8rsdad (Feb 20, 2020)

With the consolidation of most of the major publishing houses under the "Concord Theatricals" banner the royalties on plays for community theatres are 5 times what they were a couple of years ago and 5 times what the few remaining competitors charge. There's no way a classic play from the 30's should cost as much as a first run broadway musical. I foresee a great number of theatre companies being forced to jack up ticket prices or close. Here's hoping the few independent publishers can stay solvent. I know which catalogs we're choosing from first.


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## urban79 (Feb 20, 2020)

So, unlike theatrical productions, the license for music performance is generally inherent in purchasing said music... which also means there isn't a lot of detail there. Reaching out to a college or university might be your best bet as many are already doing this...


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## TimMc (Feb 21, 2020)

urban79 said:


> So, unlike theatrical productions, the license for music performance is generally inherent in purchasing said music... which also means there isn't a lot of detail there. Reaching out to a college or university might be your best bet as many are already doing this...


Not necessarily. 50 years ago it was presumed that if a school purchased 50 copies of an SATB arrangement that it would likely be performed for a choir concert or school assembly and none of the rights organizations were specifically going after schools. It turned out that even schools needed to pay for a "compulsory license" to perform or play copyright music outside of a classroom setting (choir concert, pep band playing at a game, etc) unless the purchase of, or renting of the scores specifically convey those rights (and that's a rare thing). When you purchase a score or sheet music, you gain the right of personal performance - to play and sing the song or work for your own amusement and for your family to enjoy in your home. You don't get the right to perform the work on your street corner for any and all to hear. You don't get the right to perform the work for an assembled audience in a hall. Those rights are separate and generally administered by "compulsory license" where the rights agencies calculate how much of their client's music is likely to be performed in your venue, apply some weighting formulas and statistical voodoo and they come up with a bill... but you're then free to perform all the music of that agency's clients for that fixed fee.


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## josh88 (Feb 21, 2020)

sk8rsdad said:


> "Concord Theatricals"


Is an absolute mess. I can't come up with a reason other than they absorbed too much too fast, but good luck getting rights to shows from them right now. Its been 6 months to a year now that I've heard left and right about how their customer service is non existent, nobody can get people on the phone, people have lost out on rights because theres nobody to get in contact with and they've basically ground to a halt. If it's a result of the acquisitions, they not only put the wrong foot forward, its like they gave their shoes to a 3 year old and said good luck, and bailed.


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## Jay Ashworth (Feb 22, 2020)

Oh, they're only 6 months old.

This may explain, too, why my local community theatres have split 50/50 between MTI stuff and local originals...


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## Greg Huffman (Feb 26, 2020)

Definitely not my area of expertise but leads me to some questions I’ve always wondered about and please tell me if I need to post it somewhere else or just ignore. They relate to dance competitions and recitals (both my daughters danced in that world). Specifically the music that’s simply pulled and cut, sometimes remixed slightly, to put into the 2-3 minute format used in the dance. It’s often recorded and later sold to parents and often live-streamed as well. YouTube is full of videos that the choreographer s are making money from. Legally speaking who’s responsible? The choreographer? Dancer? Dance school? Venue? Also does YouTube enforce


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## Ancient Engineer (Feb 26, 2020)

If the rights police decide to enforce... that would be everyone in that chain being liable. The dancer proper, if not involved with the music sourcing, is plausable to escape unscathed. Always, always ask if the music rights are secured before you engage in this type of buying or participating. If not, you are rolling the dice... Youtube is pretty good with enforcement, if notified.


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## Greg Huffman (Feb 26, 2020)

So that’s what I pretty much thought but am totally amazed and dumbfounded at the number of these events I see and hear about. Thanks for the reply!


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## Davecrow (Feb 26, 2020)

Separately from copyright and sync issues is the whole can of worms of having written permissions of anyone on screen, minor children no less, and having their images appear on the Internet.


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## TheaterEd (Feb 26, 2020)

MRW Lights said:


> Recently experienced by this school's fundraiser embattled with the Mouse.... never square off against the mouse.



It's worth pointing out that Movie Licensing USA is the entity that fined the school. They represent Disney, along with a ton of other companies to provide license to show movies. Most school districts know to acquire this license so that their teachers can show movies and shows in their classrooms. Once the fine became a news story, Bob donated to the organization that was originally fined.

I worry that this sort of gives people permission to disregard copy write laws in schools. I mean, somehow this school did Aliens the stage play, and rather than receive a fine, they got funded to remount it for another weekend and praised for their 'fair use adaptation'.

This irritates me, because I have to constantly be the 'bad guy' when my students ask me to do things like this. I love that they were able to do this, but I'm not willing to risk my job to find out whether or not they'll enforce their fines on me.


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## Lextech (Feb 26, 2020)

MRW Lights said:


> It depends... but your better bet might be to webstream. Today, most performance agreements allow live streaming of a performance, but it cannot be available for replay/download. Ironically I work in a broadcast department for an education institution and that's an easier route for us to go even though we own a broadcast station



We don't have a TV station at the university, but this is exactly what we do here.


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## MRW Lights (Feb 26, 2020)

TheaterEd said:


> It's worth pointing out that Movie Licensing USA is the entity that fined the school. They represent Disney, along with a ton of other companies to provide license to show movies. Most school districts know to acquire this license so that their teachers can show movies and shows in their classrooms. Once the fine became a news story, Bob donated to the organization that was originally fined.
> 
> I worry that this sort of gives people permission to disregard copy write laws in schools. I mean, somehow this school did Aliens the stage play, and rather than receive a fine, they got funded to remount it for another weekend and praised for their 'fair use adaptation'.
> 
> This irritates me, because I have to constantly be the 'bad guy' when my students ask me to do things like this. I love that they were able to do this, but I'm not willing to risk my job to find out whether or not they'll enforce their fines on me.



Well... there's a few things to consider here regarding copyright law. I'll preface this by saying I am not a certified lawyer nor should my experience be taken as legal advice. Though I have spent many years embattled with entertainment and intellectual property law, my thoughts are simply a culmination of my experiences and studies. 

The school that did Aliens the stage play adapted a screenplay as part of an educational group. There were no previously licensed versions of the material and there was no inherent intent to monetize their work. Most of all, no one was out for the money. Disney may hold the record for intellectual property lawsuits as they have a long dark history of chasing them and breaking them. *ahem* Mary Poppins *ahem* Mickey Mouse *ahem*

The disney school specifically sold tickets (monetized another individual's/company's intellectual property) for a viewing of a film. Even though the tickets were optional. It was considered a public event and members in attendance paid an admission fee.

Using videos in an educational setting to foster discussion centered around an educational topic is often considered "Fair Use". Someone such as a YouTube Creator may even use protected clips within certain limits for means of satire, discussion or critique. The separation is typically defined as an event being open to an audience outside the viewing of a private home / event and the monetization with intent to earn a profit from the intellectual property.


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## TimMc (Feb 26, 2020)

Greg Huffman said:


> Definitely not my area of expertise but leads me to some questions I’ve always wondered about and please tell me if I need to post it somewhere else or just ignore. They relate to dance competitions and recitals (both my daughters danced in that world). Specifically the music that’s simply pulled and cut, sometimes remixed slightly, to put into the 2-3 minute format used in the dance. It’s often recorded and later sold to parents and often live-streamed as well. YouTube is full of videos that the choreographer s are making money from. Legally speaking who’s responsible? The choreographer? Dancer? Dance school? Venue? Also does YouTube enforce


Public performance rights granted under compulsory license are usually tied to the *venue*. Both our local PAC and county-owned arena pay compulsory license fees to BMI and ASCAP and possibly others. They can recoup some or all of these from clients that use the facilities. Synchronization must be deliberate; i.e. if the video camera mic just picks up the music, it's likely to be considered "wild", but if video person is sent a feed from a mixer, it is synch'd. Learned this working for Showtime boxing... no incidental music in my primary audio feed to the truck - they played all the cleared, 'synchronized' music in a feed back to me as well as broadcast. When it was time for the undercard fighters to do their ring walks, the music was picked up by the announcer's microphones so was "wild".

YouTube moves pretty fast to take down clips for copyright infringement when there is a complaint... but you'd have to get an answer from them as to what does and does not justify a take-down.


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## Jay Ashworth (Feb 28, 2020)

TimMc said:


> Synchronization must be deliberate; i.e. if the video camera mic just picks up the music, it's likely to be considered "wild", [ ... ]
> 
> YouTube moves pretty fast to take down clips for copyright infringement when there is a complaint... but you'd have to get an answer from them as to what does and does not justify a take-down.



Though Youtube doesn't understand the first item; they hear it, they fingerprint it, they pull you.

Ask WorldCon London.


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## Calc (Feb 29, 2020)

Youtube operates under DMCA Safe Harbor rules. Essentially:
1. When someone claims copyright on a video, Youtube pulls it immediately. In exchange, Youtube itself isn't liable for infringement.
2. The poster can either let the video stay down, or reply with a counter-notice. The counter-notice requires Youtube to put it back up, but is a legal statement under penalty of perjury that you have rights to publish the video.
3. The rightsholder can then sue you directly (or let it go), since you've claimed you have the rights.

More info here: https://www.eff.org/issues/intellectual-property/guide-to-youtube-removals


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## Michael K (Mar 23, 2020)

This reminded me of the discussion here:


It is primarily focused on copyright and YouTube, but covers many of things already mentioned here.


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## Jay Ashworth (Mar 23, 2020)

Rob Paravonian did it much better.


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## Ben Stiegler (Mar 23, 2020)

Jason Pratt said:


> Does anyone know the legality surrounding broadcasting school choral/band/orchestra concerts?
> 
> My school district has a public access channel for district specific events, and I am attempting to find out how to get approval (and from whom) to put the various concerts on this channel. I have heard from others in the past that the companies don't bother with high schools, but that answer isn't really sufficient for me or my district. Before we move our discussion along, I want to find out how to be 100% legal; as an artist myself, I also have a strong desire to ensure royalties and compensation are made appropriately.
> 
> If you have any information, please send it my way!


tiny bit of reference matl - https://www.huffpost.com/entry/live-streaming-video-is-it-legal_b_59a6d4e9e4b08299d89d0b3e

I will say that Carleton and Yale (for 2 examples) have been streaming orchestra/band/dance performances for some time. Carleton has been touchier about theatre productions, but I think its more an internal issue. Here's Yale's site - https://music.yale.edu/live


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## Jay Ashworth (Mar 24, 2020)

From that piece:

"*Are you capturing copyrighted content?*"

Well, of *course* you are -- *everything* is copyrighted from inception nowadays.

That's the fundamental reason why copyright is broken, and *has* to change.

No sense *having* the rest of the conversation in light of that one answer, as far as I can see.

Followup thought: If someone is streaming you in public, and you don't want them to, *immediately* start singing a Disney song at the top of your lungs.


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## StradivariusBone (Mar 24, 2020)

TimMc said:


> there is another group that focuses on public performance in Houses of Worship



I think you're talking about CCLI. And TimMc is spot on with BMI and ASCAP. They own practically everything regarding music. I can speak from my experience as a recovering music educator, a lot of the basic band and chorus literature will have the rights attached to them for most performance situations that school bands will encounter. I found that adapting music to perform for a marching band presented new challenges, but both BMI and ASCAP had systems in place to apply for rights at varying costs. Some literature, particularly new or higher level music, will have special leases even to perform the work which further complicates the matter. Much like doing a musical, you never own the paper you just rent it. With those, the companies you rent it from will be able to explain what you can do with it. A good place to start would be simply calling the place you bought the music from. I found that often enough they had a relationship with the publisher and can give you an idea of who to contact and what to expect.


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## gafftaper (Mar 24, 2020)

Here's a fun side note. I discovered that a parent 6 years ago recorded a performance of Grease at my school, broke it into 15 parts and posted it on YouTube. I went on and tried to get it pulled because I didn't want our current production of Grease to be in trouble for violation of the contract. So I reported the posts as a violation. Youtube not only refused to pull them they threatened to ban me from YouTube for waisting their time with a false report. They said that only the copyright holder is allowed to complain. So Sam French can pull them in the course of suing our theater, but I can't pull the videos to protect myself. I tried to argue that they had filmed minors without permission and that we may not own the script but we do own that licensed performance. They refused and kept threatening me. Finally I have up and was able to work with some alumni to figure out who filmed the performance and asked him to take them down which he did. So yeah, YouTube doesn't understand our industry and how our contracts work.


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## TimMc (Mar 24, 2020)

gafftaper said:


> Here's a fun side note. I discovered that a parent 6 years ago recorded a performance of Grease at my school, broke it into 15 parts and posted it on YouTube. I went on and tried to get it pulled because I didn't want our current production of Grease to be in trouble for violation of the contract. So I reported the posts as a violation. Youtube not only refused to pull them they threatened to ban me from YouTube for waiting their time with a false report. They said that only the copyright holder is allowed to complain. So Sam French can pull them in the course of suing our theater, but I can't pull the videos to protect myself. I tried to argue that they had filmed minors without permission and that we may not own the script but we do own that licensed performance. They refused and kept threatening me. Finally I have up and was able to work with some alumni to figure out who filmed the performance and asked him to take them down which he did. So yeah, YouTube doesn't understand our industry and how our contracts work.


I'm pretty sure the Alphabet legal team sees this as a matter of "standing". You're not the victim of the alleged copyright infringement - you're neither the owner of the copyrights nor an agent thereof - so you have no legal standing to bring a copyright claim or request take-down on that basis.


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## gafftaper (Mar 24, 2020)

TimMc said:


> I'm pretty sure the Alphabet legal team sees this as a matter of "standing". You're not the victim of the alleged copyright infringement - you're neither the owner of the copyrights nor an agent thereof - so you have no legal standing to bring a copyright claim or request take-down on that basis.


Yep. We don't own the copyright so we can't take it down. They didn't care that we could be sued by the copyright holder if a third party violated our contract. I believe fines run up to $25,000 per post. If I would have still had the contract paperwork I think I would have had a shot at getting it pulled. But since that teacher and paperwork were long gone, they didn't care.


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## Kristi R-C (Mar 25, 2020)

There are folks working to get the copyright law changed to better reflect the reality of the needs of schools right now. 

E.g. someone mentioned showing a film in your class was OK - it is IF it is part of the "regular curriculum" and the only people present are the teacher and the "regularly matriculated students." I can't show Lion King in science class, unless it's supporting something in the science curriculum. But right now, you can't show it to your students in your class that's meeting via Zoom because you are broadcasting it, even if the only folks in the Zoom meeting are the teacher and regularly matriculated students and it supports the curriculum. Thankfully, some of the rights holders "get" it and are making content available for free for a limited time. I'm excited about the Hugh Jackman Oklahoma this weekend! 

As folks who make a living in the performing arts we want to keep these laws strict, BUT make it easier for people to pay a reasonable amount and use the materials. Whether you are making money or not is not part of the argument about "is this copyright infringement" but it very much is part of the "how much do you owe the rights holder for damages?" We all deserve to earn a living and our students deserve to see high quality performances at a reasonable cost.


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