# Rising Stage



## buddy101089 (Jul 17, 2006)

Hey,
We are doing a concert in septermber where they want during the middle of the song for the drums to rise from the ground or from close to the ground and they want it to be a slow smooth ride. What do yall suggest that we do/use and we are on a very very low budget and i guess i just need to know what device i need to look at to use and what yall use. We are in the atl area so if yall know any rental companies that would be great too! thanks in advance for yalls responses!


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## ricc0luke (Jul 17, 2006)

very very low budget? i don't want to waste your time and tell you a bunch of b.s. here. probably not possible. that would require hydrolics or maybe ou could get away with puenmatics to do safely. the cheapest and simplest thing i can think of is a winch and 4 cables on each corner of the drum platform. the cables would be seen, and to get the right equipment to do so safely would still require at least a few hundred.

i would just look into lighting effects for the drums on a raised platform.


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## MHSTech (Jul 17, 2006)

Best thing I can think for you to do is try to find some rental place that will rent you a scissor lift table. Something like this... http://southworthproducts.com/Displ...cksaver+Lite+Compact&t=Backsaver+Lite+Compact
You'll want to find something with a bigger footprint also, to reduce the risk of it tipping over. You'll probably also want to build a platform on it and bolt it down somehow and bolt it to the floor with several lugs. And you'll need to build at least one bar around the back of the platform to keep the drummer from tipping back and falling off. 

The nice thing about these are that they aren't very tall when they're all the way down, you could probably build a skirt on the platform to hide the whole thing when it is retracted. 

This probably isn't the best way to do it, but it should work, in theory. But if it doesn't, just call me Hans Off, because I want nothing to do with your drummer falling on his arse from 6 feet up in the air and getting clobbered with drums.


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## Foxinabox10 (Jul 23, 2006)

You could also rent a scissor lift that has removable sides. Most places will rent curtains that hang over the sides and are really long, so as you go up, the curtain will go up and be long enough to reach the ground still. If you do that, make sure you get an electric one (most of them are gas). A lift rental place might donate the rental if you pay the transportation cost.


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## MHSTech (Jul 23, 2006)

Foxinabox10 said:


> A lift rental place might donate the rental if you pay the transportation cost.


Tax write-off.


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## jonhirsh (Jul 23, 2006)

Um sorry guys but Aerial Lift Platforms i.e. Scissor lift are not to be used without the side rails in any circumstance. This would be breaking the user agreement nullifying any and all liability of the insurance company and or the manufacturer. The only reasons to remove the rails are for transport reasons like getting it through a door that is low. You are not to operate it during these times. If you’re in Canada you are inviting your self to a possible $50,000 dollar fine personally and your company an even larger one also you can face jail time if an injury occurs. This is according to the green book. I don’t know about the American laws but I would think they would be just as strict maybe even more so. 

Sorry. 
JH


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## Foxinabox10 (Jul 23, 2006)

jonhirsh said:


> Um sorry guys but Aerial Lift Platforms i.e. Scissor lift are not to be used without the side rails in any circumstance. This would be breaking the user agreement nullifying any and all liability of the insurance company and or the manufacturer. The only reasons to remove the rails are for transport reasons like getting it through a door that is low. You are not to operate it during these times. If you’re in Canada you are inviting your self to a possible $50,000 dollar fine personally and your company an even larger one also you can face jail time if an injury occurs. This is according to the green book. I don’t know about the American laws but I would think they would be just as strict maybe even more so.
> 
> Sorry.
> JH



If your auditorium has the means, you could put the drummer on a fall arest system and that would allow you to operate the lift without rails, right?


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## jonhirsh (Jul 24, 2006)

Nope, not only can you not operate a lift without the rails but apparently which i did not learn till a few weeks ago, you can not operate a lift even one with rails with out an harness. And belts are no longer legal only full body fall restraint harnesses. So climbing gear is out. Also modifying the lift for any purpose voids any and all protection from the manufactorer and the insurance company. 

But obviously the industry breaks these rules all the time. But thats no excuse. The green book which is canadian guidelines for which all industrial work places must obide states that employees and employers can be fined in the case of an accident detiremind to be the cause of a worker. There fore it is your best intrest to follow the guidelines. 

As said before i dont know much about the USA standards. but i do know that they are strict. And you must follow them. 

All i know is my curent "employer" (im a freelancer) Asked me to get a lift ticket and while in the session i learned quite a few things that scare me esspecialy in this industry regarding Lift Platforms. So if your in canada and are intrested in using lifts please contact me and i will inform you of who to get hold of to get your own lift ticket. And please be advisied that without an lift ticket you cannot go up in a lift weither you are driving it or not. It is the equivelent to driving a car without an drivers licenese. 

JH


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## avkid (Jul 24, 2006)

This "lift ticket" thing sounds interesting to me, would you care to elaborate on it? I'm also curious if anything like it exists in the U.S.


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## jwl868 (Jul 24, 2006)

The US OSHA rules slightly less strict than the Canadian rules. The US rules make a distinction between "scissors lift" and other lifts (such as the boom lifts used by cable lienmen.) The attached link from the US OSHA website is very thorough and one should go further into the regs for more details.

http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=INTERPRETATIONS&p_id=24191

Interestingly, US OSHA regulates the "scissors lifts" under their scaffolding rules. And a factor, often forgotten, is that the fall protection regulations do no apply below 6 feet above the next level in construction and 4 feet above the next level in general industry. (See 29 CFR 1910, subpart D [1910.20] - Walking - Working Surfaces.)

An additional note is that individual states may have more stringent requirements.

Joe


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## Foxinabox10 (Jul 24, 2006)

In looking more at the OSHA standards, I believe a fall arrest harness would appropriately be substituted for the guard rails.


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## jonhirsh (Jul 24, 2006)

A lift ticket in canada is like certification. In the bi-laws it states that people who can use a lift is a competent person and the definition of competence listed in a person certified by a manufactorer on the product they are going to use. So a lift ticket can be obtainend from the manufactorer or there distributers. 

In the usa it depends on where you work. The insurance of the building can require that you need traning from the in house safty co ordinator. Or obtain an traning course from an out side source. For example at CalArts if you want to use a lift you must take a written test and prove you know how to use one by doing an driving test ona closed circut corse with our safty co ordinator. 

When using fall arest with an lift you have to clip on to the points inside the lift marked as fallarest points not the railing. and not outside of the bucket. 

Something again notworthy in canada is that if you get your lift ticket you still need to get fallarest traning to leagaly be able to go up in a lift. With out it you are still breaking the law. and are subject to fines.


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## jonhirsh (Jul 24, 2006)

Foxinabox10 said:


> In looking more at the OSHA standards, I believe a fall arrest harness would appropriately be substituted for the guard rails.



Nope again because you must follow the strictiest of laws or recomendations and in this case the manufaactorer states in the manual that it shal not be operated with out the rails. This is the statement that must be followed as its the toughests regulation. 

Is traning required in the states?
--------------------------------------
Question 3: Do the training requirements of §1926.454 apply to equipment considered aerial lifts under §1926.453?

Answer: Yes, the training requirements apply to all equipment covered by Subpart L, which includes aerial lifts covered by §1926.453.

Which is described in the osha documet as traning on site by a competent person. and in that document it describes what a competent person is. 

JH


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## Foxinabox10 (Jul 24, 2006)

jonhirsh said:


> Nope again because you must follow the strictiest of laws or recomendations and in this case the manufaactorer states in the manual that it shal not be operated with out the rails. This is the statement that must be followed as its the toughests regulation.
> 
> Is traning required in the states?
> --------------------------------------
> ...



Throughout the regulations, it consistently states that scissor lifts are to be considered scaffolding, not aerial lifts. Also, the manufacturer's statements are suggestions that release them from legal liability. This only makes since, considering you can't get fined for breaking a manufacturer's suggestion, that's why OSHA is there.


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## jonhirsh (Jul 24, 2006)

Yes but osha says you must follow the manufactores recomendations its in there but its so thick i dont have time to dig it out. And even scafolding is coverd in subpart L which covers scafold as well you must be trained with scafold as well you must recive traning. Read it its all there. 

JH

ps. to get back to the original thread an skyjack as a substitute is not a viable option without the siderails fall arest or not. 

pss. and just for those intrested osha is not the governing body in canada so none of this applys here.


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## MHSTech (Jul 24, 2006)

jonhirsh said:


> Um sorry guys but Aerial Lift Platforms i.e. Scissor lift are not to be used without the side rails in any circumstance. This would be breaking the user agreement nullifying any and all liability of the insurance company and or the manufacturer. The only reasons to remove the rails are for transport reasons like getting it through a door that is low. You are not to operate it during these times. If you’re in Canada you are inviting your self to a possible $50,000 dollar fine personally and your company an even larger one also you can face jail time if an injury occurs. This is according to the green book. I don’t know about the American laws but I would think they would be just as strict maybe even more so.
> 
> Sorry.
> JH


Interesting, scissor lift tables don't have rails. 

Also, with the thing about belts not being allowed anymore...who does this come from? We still use belts on our ladder truck (fire department).


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## jonhirsh (Jul 25, 2006)

Its a canadian thing dont know about the states. Belts are no longer exceptable here acording to the green book. Scissor lift tables dont have rails because people are not ment to ride on them and or they dont go above 6 feet which is the maximum height with out fall restraint or safty features to prevent a fall.


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## jwl868 (Jul 25, 2006)

MHSTech - the prohibition of the use of a belt with fall arrest system is in 29 CFR 1926.502(d): 
""Personal fall arrest systems." Personal fall arrest systems and their use shall comply with the provisions set forth below. Effective January 1, 1998, body belts are not acceptable as part of a personal fall arrest system. Note: The use of a body belt in a positioning device system is acceptable and is regulated under paragraph (e) of this section."

Note the distinction of a Positioning Device system:

29 CFR 1926.502(e) 
""Positioning device systems." Positioning device systems and their use shall conform to the following provisions:
1926.502(e)(1) 
Positioning devices shall be rigged such that an employee cannot free fall more than 2 feet (.9 m). "

[additional details follow this on the construction].

Perhaps the belts used by the fire department are Positioning Devices not Fall Arrest Systems.

Also note that the way OSHA iswritten, municipal workers and volunteers are not protected under OSHA. Some states have OSHA laws that do protect public employees. 



Joe


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## CowboyDan (Jul 25, 2006)

If I was operating on a low buget and depending on the height that you are needing to get to you can use the scissor jacks that come in all car. This is the factory jack that most people through out of there car soon after they buy a car.

Use one jack in each corner of the platform. As for stablizing the platform on the jacks once it is in the air. This is something that you need to decide in you space. I used 4x4 and 2x4 framing that slided into place to help hold it. 

We did have to modife the jacks so that two were connected together to raise up and down at the same time. As far as a power source to raise them up and down I used two 18 volt DeWalt drills.

Have fun with it.


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## Foxinabox10 (Jul 25, 2006)

What also works is racecar jacks if you can manage to secure a few. If you set them up with a few 2x4's, you can use angles to raise the platform 3 or 4 feet.


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## ricc0luke (Jul 26, 2006)

lets go back to what was originally suggested... a scissor lift table cable of holding hundreds of pounds- not a scissors work platform. As long as you stay under 6 feet with it, no fall protection or rails are required.

While we're on the subject of the lift table, lets talk about putting live load on a table ment to hold stationary objects. Not a great idea.

Car jacks. Also not a great idea. They have very small footprints and are ment for temporary use only. Factory car jacks sometimes fail. Thats why you should never be under a car held up by them. Plus you will have to worry about the platform moving equally on both sides.


Rigging a moving platform is not a small thing. Rigging a moving platform with people and equipment to move during a show... thats too involved for a very very low budget.

Sorry, but I don't see anyway that this can be done safetly without funding, and lots of it.

Remember, it doesn't matter how cool it looks and what it'll do unless it's done safetly.


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## jonhirsh (Jul 26, 2006)

I agree with that satement. Also another thing i didnt think about was that a Sky jack even the smallest ones avalible weigh atleast 4,000 pounds, unless your stage is made of steel or you lay plywood when you drive it on there it will fall right through the floor. 


JH


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## Foxinabox10 (Jul 27, 2006)

I know our stage is just on plywood and concrete. But, when we built an extension out into the pit, it held our lift which is pretty heavy (Heft-t-Herman).


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