# Martin Atomic 3000



## Sean

Hey all....

There seems to be confusion--both on my vendor's part, and mine about the Atomic strobes. Looking for someone to settle the disagreement.

Can the same fixture be used with 120v and 208v? Are they the same fixture with different lamps (MAX-7 vs. MAX-15)? Has the design/power supply changed recently?

The manual seems to suggest that the LAMP makes the difference, but it's also oddly translated from Dutch.

I figured I'd call Martin's US office on Monday, but in the meantime.....

Ship? Anyone that use these fixtures often the time care to comment?

Thanks!

--Sean


----------



## Hughesie

not my area of expertise but i would look on the back to see if it has a power input options (like a little red slide switch) this is how you change the voltage on some things.

sorry i couldn't help further.


----------



## SHARYNF

IF you go to 
http://www.martin.com/spec/composit...s=on&photo=on&region=US&lang=0&product=atomic

and you look carefully you will see that at the top of th spec is shows the power supply is auto ranging BUT you then need to change the lamp from a 7 to a 15 to go from 120 to 220.

Martin sometimes is confusing

Sharyn


----------



## digitaltec

The unit is auto sensing but you do need to change the strobe tube. I have only ever used them in 208v. Direct from the manual:

The auto-ranging power supply automatically adjusts to any 50 - 60 Hz AC power 
supply from 90 to 260 volts. No adjustment is necessary. Note that the MAX-15 
lamp does not operate below 125 volts. 
The current required by the Atomic 3000 varies according to lamp type, power 
mode, and usage. To avoid overload, allow one 16 or 20 amp branch circuit per 
fixture to operate the MAX-15 model at full power. Two fixtures may be placed 
on a 16 amp branch circuit if they are operated in low power mode or use the 
MAX-7 lamp. 
Use 2.5 mm2 (13 AWG) or larger power feed cables and keep runs as short as 
possible.


----------



## Sean

SHARYNF said:


> IF you go to
> http://www.martin.com/spec/composit...s=on&photo=on&region=US&lang=0&product=atomic
> and you look carefully you will see that at the top of th spec is shows the power supply is auto ranging BUT you then need to change the lamp from a 7 to a 15 to go from 120 to 220.
> Martin sometimes is confusing
> Sharyn



Oh, I know the above.

My concern is that I have both vendors AND rental shops telling me they cannot supply the 120v fixtures because they don't have them. NOT the lamps--the fixtures.

What I'm trying to figure out is if there IS only one fixture, or if there are in fact different versions of the Atomic floating around. Or, has there ONLY ever been one fixture that took two lamps?

--Sean


----------



## Sean

digitaltec said:


> The unit is auto sensing but you do need to change the strobe tube. I have only ever used them in 208v. Direct from the manual:
> The auto-ranging power supply automatically adjusts to any 50 - 60 Hz AC power
> supply from 90 to 260 volts. No adjustment is necessary. Note that the MAX-15
> lamp does not operate below 125 volts.
> The current required by the Atomic 3000 varies according to lamp type, power
> mode, and usage. To avoid overload, allow one 16 or 20 amp branch circuit per
> fixture to operate the MAX-15 model at full power. Two fixtures may be placed
> on a 16 amp branch circuit if they are operated in low power mode or use the
> MAX-7 lamp.
> Use 2.5 mm2 (13 AWG) or larger power feed cables and keep runs as short as
> possible.



But, also from the spec sheet:
Electrical 
AC power (MAX-7 model): 100-120 V nominal, 50/60 Hz 
AC power (MAX-15 model): 200-240 V nominal, 50/60 Hz 

Everyone is telling me that there are different MODELS of fixture. I think that since Martin sells them with lamp installed, they call the same fixture by two model names. I'm looking for confirmation of that.

--Sean


----------



## len

There's only one fixture. There's a personality setting that allows both 110 and 208v use, but there's significantly less output at 110v. If you need a 110v strobe, you might try finding a Diversitronics unit, which runs a little better at 110v.


----------



## Sean

len said:


> There's only one fixture. There's a personality setting that allows both 110 and 208v use, but there's significantly less output at 110v. If you need a 110v strobe, you might try finding a Diversitronics unit, which runs a little better at 110v.



My "problem" is that I have two venues that share some equipment: Foggers, Strobes, etc. The newer space has 208v available; the older one does not. Since I'd rather NOT go the route of building "backwards twofers" to get 208v out of two different dimmed circuits (yes yes, I know), I want to make sure that the equipment can be used SAFELY in both spaces.

I already have 4 or 5 AF1000's. I've just purchased 5 Atomics to augment the one Atomic I already had. 

--Sean


----------



## digitaltec

OK, just looked it up. There are two different Models. They are:

Atomic US ; RfP, 90-120V/50-60Hz which is only for your Max- 7 (US Model)
Atomic; RfP, 125-260V/50-60Hz is your auto sensing Max-15 (World Model)

When ordering specify you want the RfP model (Which is what most people use) and you'll be all set.


----------



## Headroadie2004

Howdy I have two Atomic 3ks. They both are the 120v version with the MAX-7 bulb. I would like to covert them to the MAX-15 bulb. I know the MAX-15 needs to run at 208v I saw the PSU is a auto ranging input so could I just buy a MAX-15 bulb pop it in and plug into 208v? 

Also one of them seems to be lagging some on the strobe rate when not in blinder effect. I have heard that it is caused by a bad Main board. Is that right or could it be the bulb.


----------



## 65535

The Max-15 lamp is only good for input voltages from 200-240V. The Max-7 lamp is only good for input voltages from 100-120V. 
By swapping in a Max-15 and powering via 208V you get the 3000W lamp powered properly.

As for lagging strobe check all your settings via the User Manual located here.


----------



## Headroadie2004

65535 said:


> The Max-15 lamp is only good for input voltages from 200-240V. The Max-7 lamp is only good for input voltages from 100-120V.
> By swapping in a Max-15 and powering via 208V you get the 3000W lamp powered properly.
> 
> As for lagging strobe check all your settings via the User Manual located here.


 
Ok that's what I was wondering is if I put the MAX-15 bulb in and just plugged into 208v it should work fine. It says on the unit 120v MAX-7 only so I wasn't sure if there was a difference inside between the two bulbs. In other words I didn't want to buy the lamp put it in and just fry my Atomic by plugging into 208v.


----------



## JD

Ahh.. Are we sure about this? These strobes work by firing the lamps directly across the AC line coming into the unit. It would seem to me that the duration of the cycle of gated power would also have to be changed. (Possibly a software setting in the controller.) To achieve the same brightness on 220 the gate window would have to be 25% of the window for 110. Could be that the unit auto-adjusts based on incoming power, by I would call support before trying it.


----------



## soundman

Right from the manual.
"The auto-ranging power supply automatically adjusts to AC power from 100-120 and 200-240 volts nominal at 50/60 Hz. However, a MAX-7 lamp must be installed at 100-120 V and a MAX-15 lamp for must be installed at 200-240 V.
The current required by the Atomic 3000 varies according to lamp type, power mode, and usage. To avoid overload, allow one 16 or 20 amp branch circuit per fixture to operate the MAX-15 model at full power. Two fixtures may be placed on a 16 amp branch circuit if they are operated in low power mode or use the MAX-7 lamp.
Use 2.5 mm2 (13 AWG) or larger power feed cables and keep runs as short as possible."


----------



## TimMiller

I believe the earlier units did not have an auto ranging power supply. I would give Martin a call. Almost always Martin fixtures give a voltage range on the data plate of the unit unless it was only made for one voltage.


----------



## Irwin

There's a bit more to it. the MAX-15 lamp is physically longer than the MAX-7, so you need to replace the existing MAX-7 lamp socket brackets with these shorter ones:

Lamp Socket - left
Lamp Socket - right

Then you need to change a jumper on the main board:

Atomic voltage jumper setting

Older boards do not have the jumper pins installed, but have a jumper wire soldered in place for 100-120V operation, which you will need to remove for 200-240V operation. These older boards also label the jumper "P2" instead of "PL113" on the silkscreen, but it is in the same location.

Good luck!

-Irwin


----------



## texskittles

I'm looking to rent some strobes for an upcoming show. The rental house I'm looking at (not a ton of options around me) told me that their Martin 3000 Atomic strobes needed 220V power. I looked up every version of the Atomic strobes that I could find and they all claim 100-240V auto sensing capabilities. (here's the page for what the house claims they have http://www.martin.com/product/product.asp?product=atomic) Do they just not know what they're talking about, or is there a model with strict 208-220V requirements I couldn't fine?


----------



## derekleffew

RTFM:

> The auto-ranging power supply automatically adjusts to AC power from 100-120 and 200-240 volts nominal at 50/60 Hz. However, a MAX-7 lamp must be installed at 100-120 V and a MAX-15 lamp for must be installed at 200-240 V. The current required by the Atomic 3000 varies according to lamp type, power mode, and usage. To avoid overload, allow one 16 or 20 amp branch circuit per fixture to operate the MAX-15 model at full power. Two fixtures may be placed on a 16 amp branch circuit if they are operated in low power mode or use the MAX-7 lamp.


----------



## texskittles

Well I was not aware of different lamping options. The more you know... Thank you.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## jonslilbro

I'd like to chime in, while there is only 1 fixture, with an auto-sensing power supply, you are supposed to switch between the Max-7(120v) and Max-15(208v) lamps depending on what voltage you are planning on using. That being said, you can use a Max-15 lamp at either 208v or 120v, the only difference being at 120v you will get a significantly lower output from the lamp, as you are under powering it. I would not ever try to run a Max-7 lamp with 208v, but the other way around is ok, just doesn't look that good.


----------



## JD

You can enhance the brightness at 120 volts by upping the gauge of the power cable you run between your distro and the strobe. These strobes work by firing the lamp directly across the AC line for a small fraction of the AC waveform. At that point, the only thing limiting the power flow is the resistance of the power cable. Although the prorated duration of the direct (or near, as there is some drop across the lamp) short is too brief to trip out OCPD or the unit fuse, getting rid of (or minimizing) external resistance can really give it some kick!

Note- In "blinder mode" they are still only passing a fraction of the waveform, they are just doing it on every cycle.


----------



## bishopthomas

You know, I have a supplier who INSISTS that there are two models. I've brought up the manual and different lamps and he stays committed to his (wrong, IMO) information.


----------



## jhochb

Good Morning

The fixture & electronics are the same.
The differences are :
The dip switch setting
The lamp
And the LAMP HOLDER ( the MAX-15 lamp is longer )


To change a 120v / MAX-7 fixture to a 208v MAX-15
You need to change the lamp holder & lamp
Put a 240v plug on the line cord
And change the DIP SWITCHS

So if your rental house doesn't have the 120v / MAX-7 fixture
maybe they just don't want to explain the difference or won't change it over.

Yes Martin sells it as 2 Different models

　from the manual
*ORDERING INFORMATION*
Atomic 3000 EU model (MAX-15 lamp, 200-240 V) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . P/N 90424200
Atomic 3000 US model (MAX-7 lamp, 100-120 V) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . P/N 90424300
* 
AC
POWER*
Approved AC power (MAX-7 model) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .100 - 120 V nominal, 50/60 Hz
Approved AC power (MAX-15 model) . . . . . . . . . . . . . .200 - 240 V nominal, 50/60 Hz


----------



## bishopthomas

Ah, it's the lamp holder that probably turns it into more of a process. Just switching the lamp can't be more than a 60 second ordeal. If you have to change out the holder then it might involve more twists of a screwdriver than most rental shops care to do.


----------



## techieman33

bishopthomas said:


> Ah, it's the lamp holder that probably turns it into more of a process. Just switching the lamp can't be more than a 60 second ordeal. If you have to change out the holder then it might involve more twists of a screwdriver than most rental shops care to do.



Agreed, it sounds like it's to much work to switch back and forth easily, and then you need to keep twice the lamps on hand in the shop.


----------



## Sean

jhochb said:


> Good Morning
> 
> The fixture & electronics are the same.
> The differences are :
> The dip switch setting
> The lamp
> And the LAMP HOLDER ( the MAX-15 lamp is longer )
> 
> 
> To change a 120v / MAX-7 fixture to a 208v MAX-15
> You need to change the lamp holder & lamp
> Put a 240v plug on the line cord
> And change the DIP SWITCHS
> 
> So if your rental house doesn't have the 120v / MAX-7 fixture
> maybe they just don't want to explain the difference or won't change it over.
> 
> Yes Martin sells it as 2 Different models
> 
> from the manual
> *ORDERING INFORMATION*
> Atomic 3000 EU model (MAX-15 lamp, 200-240 V) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . P/N 90424200
> Atomic 3000 US model (MAX-7 lamp, 100-120 V) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . P/N 90424300
> *
> AC
> POWER*
> Approved AC power (MAX-7 model) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .100 - 120 V nominal, 50/60 Hz
> Approved AC power (MAX-15 model) . . . . . . . . . . . . . .200 - 240 V nominal, 50/60 Hz


 
If one wanted to change the lamp holder, what part/part number would one request from a company such as Barbizon?


----------



## len

Sean said:


> Oh, I know the above.
> 
> My concern is that I have both vendors AND rental shops telling me they cannot supply the 120v fixtures because they don't have them. NOT the lamps--the fixtures.
> 
> What I'm trying to figure out is if there IS only one fixture, or if there are in fact different versions of the Atomic floating around. Or, has there ONLY ever been one fixture that took two lamps?
> 
> --Sean



No, it's the lamp. They're probably telling you this because some customers don't know better, or the person saying it doesn't know better. So if they tell you "we ONLY have the 208v version" you're less likely to run the 208v lamp on 110v or vice versa. And if you must run at 110v you're probably better off just getting another product, even though I don't know anything that's as powerful as the Atomic.


----------



## HOHSIS

Going to be using 3 Atomic 3000 at an upcoming event, and I was wondering if anyone has used both the MAX15 AND MAX7 lamps at their recommended voltages and can explain the difference in light output between the 2? The way Martin's website and the manual read, it seems like they have the same output but are just separated based on what the requirements are for the venue power.


----------



## Wood4321

HOHSIS said:


> Going to be using 3 Atomic 3000 at an upcoming event, and I was wondering if anyone has used both the MAX15 AND MAX7 lamps at their recommended voltages and can explain the difference in light output between the 2? The way Martin's website and the manual read, it seems like they have the same output but are just separated based on what the requirements are for the venue power.


My impression is that the max 15 version is brighter, and has a much longer duty cycle. 
That being said, if you aren't using the blinder mode, either will be acceptable. Just make sure to designate a 20 amp circuit for each fixture, no matter the voltage.


----------



## JD

For extra punch, use 10/3 as your cable. High power strobes fire the lamp right across the line, so it is effectively a very brief dead short! Current is limited by longer length cables and the resistance of whatever cable gauge is being used. The bigger the pipe, the brighter the flash. Although the "run" current is below 20 amps, the actual peak current during the flash is what makes or breaks it. Try running one in the shop as a test off a 100 foot length of 16/3, 12/3, and 10/3 and you will see what I mean.


----------



## Wood4321

JD said:


> For extra punch, use 10/3 as your cable. High power strobes fire the lamp right across the line, so it is effectively a very brief dead short! Current is limited by longer length cables and the resistance of whatever cable gauge is being used. The bigger the pipe, the brighter the flash. Although the "run" current is below 20 amps, the actual peak current during the flash is what makes or breaks it. Try running one in the shop as a test off a 100 foot length of 16/3, 12/3, and 10/3 and you will see what I mean.



Yea, John is correct, at least about the cabling, (I didn't know that the strobes fire across the line?)
The peak current draw on that fixture is 33 amps, with a nominal draw of 8 amps. Short cable runs, and large gauge are your friends whenever using high power strobes.


----------



## JD

Woodj32177 said:


> Yea, John is correct, at least about the cabling, (I didn't know that the strobes fire across the line?)
> The peak current draw on that fixture is 33 amps, with a nominal draw of 8 amps. Short cable runs, and large gauge are your friends whenever using high power strobes.


Yea, nothing new on the design. A flash cap that large would make the thing twice as big and 10 times heavier. The design is amazingly simple. There is a large diode in series with the lamp. There is a ramp generator much like in a dimmer. The lamp is fired into conduction late in the ac cycle and although there is some voltage drop, it's a pretty nasty load! You vary the brightness depending on how late into the cycle the trigger fires. As the voltage reverses polarity in the second half of the cycle, the diode blocks flow and the lamp drops out of conduction. (and rests!) In "blinder" mode, it is being fired every other half cycle, so it is actually blinking on and off 60 times per second. (not 120 as the second half is blocked.) To the eye, it appears to be on continuously.
This "firing across the line" is why a different lamp is used on the 120 volt and 208/240 volt models. The higher voltage lamp has a bit less gas and therefore more resistance so that it doesn't Chernobyl on you.


----------



## Jay Ashworth

I didn't think a Xenon tube would *fire* at 120V. They do?


----------



## JD

Jay Ashworth said:


> I didn't think a Xenon tube would *fire* at 120V. They do?


All in the gassing of the lamp. Photo strobes usually run at a much higher voltage (450 - 600 vdc), but these lamps are designed to work at a pretty low voltage. Once you ignite the arc (via a HV pulse transformer) the actual arc sustains at a pretty low voltage. 

I remember the first Diversitronics super strobe I repaired back in the 80's. Opened it up and there was noting much inside! Diode, trigger transformer, a small 12 volt transformer for the wired remote, about 2 transistors and a small SCR to drive the pulse transformer! Real eye-opener!


----------



## HOHSIS

Thanks for the replied guys.

Currently I have a dedicated 15A circuit for each strobe, not entirely sure what gauge cable is being run to them, power is being provided by a group internal to my university (RIT tech crew, for those wondering) and I don't think I can have direct control over which cable gauges they use (or even if they know what I'm talking about, they probably just have a pile of power distro break out cables lying in storage somewhere) but I'll have to check.

I can, however, have them change those circuits to 20A if that is necessary.


----------



## JD

Breaker will either hold or trip, but will not effect the brightness. I suspect you should move it to a 20 so there are no embarrassing moments in the show. Most stage cable is 12/3 SO, but on the off chance that they used 14/3, they may up-gauge simply because it is now on a 20. Circuit breakers do not actually limit current flow, they simply interrupt it should the flow persist above the rating. Speed of interruption is a sliding scale, starting below the breakers rated size. (Thus the 20% de-rate rule on non-switchboard equipment.)


----------



## Jay Ashworth

For the record, if you can run something that power intensive at 240 sted 120, that would be a good thing to do -- especially since it's hard power, no dimmer involved. Twice the voltage, half the current; much less copper... even at the cable rating you should be using.

[ though, on reflection, since it's a different lamp, that truism may not, actually, be true in this specific case; I'm not familiar enough with the fixture that you should take this opinion as gospel. ]


----------



## Jay Ashworth

My favorite comment in a user manual, evar:


> 1. Whether or not you value your life, disconnect the fixture from AC power and allow the capacitor to discharge for 1 minute.


----------



## HOHSIS

To err on the side of caution I swapped out the atomic circuits to 20A independent now. I'll ask about the cable gauge, but I'm assuming it will be 12/3.

I'm keeping it at 120, as per what the manual says. According to Martin, the MAX-7 is recommended to be used in the 90-120V range.


----------



## JD

HOHSIS said:


> To err on the side of caution I swapped out the atomic circuits to 20A independent now. I'll ask about the cable gauge, but I'm assuming it will be 12/3.
> 
> I'm keeping it at 120, as per what the manual says. According to Martin, the MAX-7 is recommended to be used in the 90-120V range.


Yea, you wouldn't want to run a MAX-7 (with 120v lamp) on 240v unless you like to see things fly apart 

@Jay Ashworth 
For sure you would never want to open either up for lamp replacement until the power supply cap bled off. That little pulse transformer kicks at 4,000 to 9,000 volts, like a defibrillator in reverse.


----------



## Jay Ashworth

And indeed, I wasn't suggesting using the -7 at 240 -- though, in fact, the manual does not forbid it, it merely strongly recommends you not.


----------



## JD

For those who may be curious- (funny, though I posted this yesterday.)


----------



## HOHSIS

So, after using these guys I thought I would update the thread in case anyone else is interested. I used 3 of the Atomics - 1 un the floor under the upstage truss for strobing the whole stage, and 2 on top of the downstage truss for firing at the audience. They were using MAX-7 lamps, 12/3 cable, and a dedicated 20A circuit for each fixture. In the end, just one of them was insanely bright and filled the entire audience, and this was in a room that was about 120'x100'.


----------



## bishopthomas

Hahaha. Yeah, they're super bright lights. I only have one, but it keeps up for indoors. Outside is where you need quantity. Did you ever try out the "blinder" mode?


----------



## HOHSIS

bishopthomas said:


> Hahaha. Yeah, they're super bright lights. I only have one, but it keeps up for indoors. Outside is where you need quantity. Did you ever try out the "blinder" mode?



Yeah they were extremely bright. I'm convinced I need to get one of them for my personal DJ rig now. After doing a smaller dance today with my personal rig, I got depressed when I didn't have 3 strobe detonator buttons to fire during the drop 

I used the blinder once when the DJ wanted to get a picturenof the audience. I have that picture lying around somewhere.


----------



## JD

HOHSIS said:


> Yeah they were extremely bright. I'm convinced I need to get one of them for my personal DJ rig now. After doing a smaller dance today with my personal rig, I got depressed when I didn't have 3 strobe detonator buttons to fire during the drop
> 
> I used the blinder once when the DJ wanted to get a picturenof the audience. I have that picture lying around somewhere.


Blinder effect can be somewhat hit-or-miss for photography unless you use a shutter speed (eqv) of a 60th of a second or longer. It looks like it is on to the eye, but it's actually blinking. Because of the diodes, it is off for 1/120th of a second per wave (or greater), and on for much less.


----------



## HOHSIS

JD said:


> Blinder effect can be somewhat hit-or-miss for photography unless you use a shutter speed (eqv) of a 60th of a second or longer. It looks like it is on to the eye, but it's actually blinking. Because of the diodes, it is off for 1/120th of a second per wave (or greater), and on for much less.



I could tell, I wouldn't think it would just leave it shorted to the power line. He got it with his phone camera somehow though. I think it was taken after they had faded out about half way.


----------



## bravonoj

Hi guys (and gals!) - Have a question for any lighting folks around these parts - I have an Atomic Strobe (120v) and the lamp went out in it. There is a LED on the back that indicates when it has a bad lamp. Today we bought a new flash tube for it and replaced it but the LED stays lit indicating a bad tube. I don't know where to look to start troubleshooting this other than send it back and get it repaired - has anyone run across this at all? Have another identical one working fine.

Any advice would be awesome - especially if that advice happened to come with the Atomic service manual 

Thanks!

Jon


----------



## JD

They have a pretty long life... Make sure the lamp they sent you is for the 120 volt unit if that is what you have. The lamp for the 240 volt unit has a different gassing and may not fire at the lower voltage. As long as it is the right lamp and you have good connection on the end terminals and the trigger wire, then you need to check for that HV trigger pulse. Remember, buy nature it is a High Voltage pulse so there is a shock hazard!
One last question, does the LED come on instantly? If so, there may be a reset that has to be done first. Never lost a lamp in one so I'm not sure 

One more last thought! If it turns out there is something else that failed, chances are your old lamp is good too!


----------



## ship

Heard my name above. Never used one in person, just buy the lamps and supply the cable.

No, no special 10ga cable for feeding fixtures has ever been supplied over the years since the fixture was invented, it was 12/3 or 12/14 Soco type assuming it's mostly a burst at most in maxing out the amperage over a short period of time.

"My concern is that I have both vendors AND rental shops telling me they cannot supply the 120v fixtures because they don't have them. NOT the lamps--the fixtures" I was not aware either that there wasn't other than two fixtures in where I work. At least I believed we stocked some XOP 7 fixtures and mostly the normal XOP 15 lamp fixtures and there was two versions. 

Was not aware that they were convertable but than again, I don't mostly do post 1979 technology other than buying lamps and installing LED tape I don't buy for custom builds these days... and also, I still don't get DMX code in having guys for that as with fiber optics. I do know Martin has changed suppliers over the years for this XOP 15 lamp, but seemingly for all above posters, there is no problems with lamp life.

I have custom made the XOP 15OF.ofr lamps by way of an alternate company in the lamps I use for the 1.5Kw strobes - or perhaps the original company Martin had them made from. Don't know who makes the lamps I use, my supplier gets them made for me to my spec. and if I find problems they look at it and adjust to make better. I found the last I bought in lamps from Martin as a supplier over time don't live up to my lamp needs and went elsewhere in getting back to where the lamp life once was. On the XOP 7 lamps, I use so few of them that I still get them from Martin.

Sorry if not of help in never having used or worked on such fixtures other than perhaps fixing a stuck bolt or rivet nut or something like that - I only buy the lamps. 10 or 15 years ago I had a lot more involvement with the Diversitronics 2000 version, but mainly in providing a stable not spot welded rigging platform for them and replaced fans.


----------



## cantic1

Hi all, 

Does anyone have experience using both the 120v model and 208v model of the Martin Atomic strobes? Is there an output difference? Or could the difference be in the programming?

I have multiple designers who are looking to use the atomics, one of which is insisting on the 208v model, however I can't seem to put my finger on a difference in the output, or why one is "better" than the other. Since the 208v model requires specific power, a power distro box and associated cables would make the rental almost twice as much as if I were to rent the 120v models. 

Looking for some justification.


----------



## len

As far as I remember, they're the same unit, with the only difference being the lamp and/or a setting. Can't remember. And yes, the 208v setting will get you greater output.


----------



## Trike

Hi, 

I just bought a broken Atomic 3000 and need some help repairing it. When I plug it into the wall (120v), there's no signs of life. The LED's and fan don't turn on. I have also checked and replaced the fuse. 

I opened it up to look at the PCB for damage, but no signs of charring or burnt components, however, on the transformer (tr005), I noticed a small dot of what looks like corrosion. I have checked R136 and R127 and resistance is within spec. 

Since there isn't any signs of life, I started at the 5v regulator (78M05). There isn't any power getting into the regulator, I presume the input voltage is 12v, since the fan runs on 12v. I have only traced back to the transformer so far. I'm getting power out of D101, ~170v, don't remember the exact value. 

I'm suspecting the tr005 transformer is bad, but i'm not sure if there's a protection circuit preventing it from powering on. Anyway to verify the transformer is dead? 

Any suggestions or test points to check?

Thanks!


----------



## RonaldBeal

Is it a 120v or 208v model? It may not work on 120v.


----------



## Trike

This is the 120v version with the MAX 7 lamp installed.


----------



## JD

(See schematic in post [HASHTAG]#42[/HASHTAG]) The strobe uses a one-chip switch-mode power supply. If the main cap after the diode quad has ~ 180 volts on it, but there is no 12 volt on the supply side of the 5 volt regulator, then there is a good change the transformer driver chip is dead. If there is a very low voltage on the 12 volt buss, then the chip may be working but is in current limiting mode due to a failure elsewhere.


----------



## Trike

Thanks JD, 

I'll check the drain on the TNY255 and see if the optoisolator is triggering properly. It sounds like the driver is dead, I remember measuring the output/secondary of the transformer and got no reading at all. I'll double check it again tonight in case I missed something. Thanks for the suggestions JD, that's exactly what I was looking for. Much appreciated. I'll report back once I know more.

btw: I didn't mention it earlier, but this is a v1.4 board with a 2003 stamp on the big cap.


----------



## MikeJ

As for 120 vs 208v version, the 208, with the big lamp is SIGNIFICANTLY brighter. The lamp itself is about twice as long, and so is the arc.

A lot of smaller rock shows do use the 120v models, only for the fact that sometimes you have very limited power in small clubs.

I have used both often, and the 120v version is a little disappointing when you are expecting the big boys.


----------



## Trike

I finally got a little bit of time over the weekend to mess with it. I was measuring about .4vdc at the input leg of the 5v regular. I was also getting about 146v at the source and drain pins of the driver. I was getting power to the Enable pin as well, but can't remember the voltage. Another observation to note, there is no power coming out of the secondary of the transformer, But there is power going into the primary. 

Since I had a tny255 driver handy, I swapped it in, just to make sure I was working with a good driver. Still no go. I then decided to try powering it up with an external power source. I wired in 12v into the input leg of the regulator without it attached to the wall. All the electronics and fan fired up as expected. And as a test, I plugged the power into the wall to see if it works. As soon as I plugged the power into the wall, The fan died and the LED's went dim/out. But, the strobe was functioning fine, it responds to dmx no problem. I'm not sure what is causing the fan to turn off and the led's to dim once I plug it into the wall. Maybe there's a shorted component somewhere that somehow gets triggered when the mains get plugged in. It then causes the power supply to shut down. This is where my limited smps trouble shooting skills ends. Before I start replacing all the power supply components, I wanted to see if anyone knows which power supply components fail commonly on these boards. I could start there. 

Thanks for the help. I bought this fixture knowing it was broken and wanted a crack at repairing it. This will be a really nice addition to our small band's lighting rig.


----------



## JD

Since the processor "sees" the AC waveform via the ZVC detector (pin 7 in the schm above), and the processor also flags on the fan and the LED indicators, it may simply be confused due to the turn-on sequence. If the strobe runs well and responds to DMX when you have the external 12 volt input, then most all of the circuits check ok. Double check that 5 volt buss is indeed 5 volts. If so, then the problem looks to be in the 12 volt supply. Since it is a switch-mode supply, any of the connected components could be inhibiting it's operation. Since you received this broken, there is also a chance that someone already took a crack at fixing it. Pay careful attention to anything that may look recently soldered!


----------



## Irwin

This behavior would occur if the diode D114 was shorted. If your multimeter is capable, use it to test for a shorted D114 diode. And if you have a scope, see if there are actually several volts of AC present on the +12V point when the unit is plugged in, without your external 12V supply connected.


----------



## Trike

Hi Irwin, 

Thanks for helping out! I just used an ohm meter on D114 and its reading 1.2M ohms. When I switch my fluke to diode mode, I do get a beep, then get another beep when polarity is reversed. 

I also looked for some BYD77 diodes and I can't seem to find any available anywhere. 

I'll see what I can do about getting a scope to borrow, I don't have a ton of experience using a scope though. But this is a perfect chance for some experience on using a scope. 

If C135 was bad, could that cause my symptoms? I removed the board from the panel to inspect the board closer. I noticed C135 might be slightly bulging. I measured with the multimeter but it measured open, I measured the other two that are the same caps near the mains and they also measured open. Not sure what to make of that.

Also is it correct that the secondary on the transformer measures a dead short? 

JD, 

I powered it on with the external power supply and plugged the main in and still got 5v on the 5v line. 


Thanks for all the help guys!


----------



## Irwin

You definitely should not be getting continuous beeping from your Fluke on both directions of the diode. That usually indicates a shorted diode. The transformer secondary should measure just over 1 ohm, not quite a dead short but close. I'm not sure what to make of C135 bulging.

The BYD77 is obsolete. If you need to replace it, you can substitute a BYG22D instead.


----------



## Trike

Hi Irwin,

Sorry, I wasn't clear in my previous post, the beep wasn't continuous. It beeped on and off, then when I reversed polarity, it beeped on and off again. 

I measured the secondary again and i'm getting a dead short. .2 ohm. Maybe the transformer is toast? It appears to be a Kaschke 4502000, but I can't seem to find any datasheets on it to find a replacement. Only info I found is it's a 3-10w transformer from a martin descriptions of the transformer.


----------



## Irwin

Oops, my bad on the secondary measurement. My Fluke needs calibrating. I'm getting about 0.8 ohms when I touch my leads directly together, so that does indeed indicate about 0.2 ohms for the secondary.

Try to get a scope across the secondary while the unit is plugged in. You should see an AC waveform of several volts at 130KHz. Then probe the other side of D114, and if there is a similar AC waveform, or almost nothing, then the diode is bad.


----------



## Trike

I can't seem to get any waveform out of the secondary or after the diode. I was able to get some kind of waveform from the primary and before the rectifier with the AC setting. I attached a couple pics of what I got. Of course it probably doesn't matter since the problem probably starts at the secondary.


----------



## JD

Those spikes kind of look like a switch-mode power supply trying to start but kicking right into over-voltage or over-current protect. (Possibly a soft clicking or buzzing sound can be heard.) Some notes:
1) having that low a meter reading on the secondary of the transformer is probably ok, as the meter measures using DC so the resistance collapses.
2) Since it fires up with external DC, we know it is not a short on the 12 volt buss.
3) False over-voltage trip could be caused by one of the two zener diodes being bad (D117, D123)
4) You noted C135 was bulging. On my Schm C135 is not an electrolytic cap (the type that usually fail that way.) If the cap you are looking at is an electrolytic (can type) cap and it is bulging, replace it. Often, a bulging cap will go open circuit, which is just as bad as shorted.


----------



## Irwin

Yep, if you're seeing input at the primary and nothing at the secondary, either the transformer is bad, or the secondary is being shorted by something externally.

I have a hunch which would be simple to test: if the diode D114 was indeed shorted, the capacitor C128 would have a very low impedance at 130KHz, effectively loading down the secondary output. Try lifting D114 from the circuit and see if you get anything at the secondary.


----------



## Trike

Thanks for all the help guys, I'm learning a lot from this process. 

I lifted D114, I'm getting absolutely no dc voltage coming out of the secondary. I'm seeing 110v DC going into the primary. 
I attached a pic of the scope reading on the secondary with D114 lifted. 

JD, 
C135 is a R41 MKT X1/Y2 safety cap. It's not round like an electrolytic cap. The dielectric material is Polypropylene (PP), Metallized according to the datasheet (http://www.kemet.com/Lists/ProductCatalog/Attachments/497/KEM_F3100_R41_Y2_300.pdf).

Thanks!


----------



## JD

Looks like a pulse followed by a short ring. Something's telling the switcher to not bother try! Could be the transformer, but my gut tells me it's a simpler problem. What voltage are you getting across the transistor side of the opto-isolator? (pins 4-5) If that junction were bad, you would get close to 0 and the switcher would think the output of the transformer was in over-voltage.
Without the switcher running, the main supply cap C131 should be charging up pretty close to peak line voltage (about 180 volts at 120 volts in.) If it is a LOT less, than that cap might be open.


----------



## Irwin

In case you can't fix it...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/181584272804


----------



## Trike

Thanks for the heads up on the ebay board. I'll keep an eye on it. 

JD,

With D114 lifted, I'm getting 280vdc on pin 4 and 5 of the opto isolator(IC111). I probed the Positive pin on the rectifier and pins 4 and 5 on the opto. If I continue to probe it, the voltage slowly starts dropping. I measured across C131 and am getting 280vdc.

Thanks!


----------



## Irwin

Hmm, something is way off. If you are plugged into 120V mains, you should be getting about 160-170vdc across C131. I would expect to see 280vdc across C131 only if you were plugged into 208V mains. Also, the voltage you're seeing between pins 4 and 5 of the opto isolator is way too high.

With D114 still lifted, you should see the following voltages on the TNY255:
Between pins 8 and 1: 5.8vdc
Between pins 8 and 4: 1.5vdc


----------



## JD

Agree with above! Those voltages are way out of the range for the 120 volt unit. The most the cap will do is charge up to the peak voltage, which for 120 volts RMS, should be well below 200 vdc.


----------



## Trike

It's weird. When the main is first plugged in (120vac), Measuring across C131, I get 170vdc, and it continues to rise and it finally settles around 280vdc after 20secs or so. 

With D114 still lifted
Measuring across pin 1 and 8 on the TNY255, I get .014vdc
Measuring across pin 1 and 5 on the TNY255, I get .215vdc


----------



## JD

Measurements to pin 1 are not going to be too useful. Sorry this pic is in Russian and it's a 220v circuit, but it does help simplify the discussion. Look at the voltage between pin 2 (or 8,7,6,and 3) and pin 5. If that is also near the full cap voltage, then the TN255 is locked off probably in a protect mode. If it is very low, then the primary of the transformer may be open. Then look at pin 2 to pin 4. if that voltage is less than a volt then the opto might be popped. Little baffled by the supply cap drift as no reason comes to mind as to the voltage climbing so high as the circuit is not a pumper.


----------



## Irwin

So strange. What device are you using to measure these voltages? Is its signal ground possibly connected to earth ground?


----------



## Trike

I'm using a simple fluke multimeter to check the voltages, the model escapes me at the moment. There's no fancy features on the meter, just AC, DC, Diode check, and amp reading. Before I lifted D114, the voltages were around 160vdc. 

I'll check it out over the weekend when I get some time and report my findings for your JD.


----------



## JD

Trike said:


> I'm using a simple fluke multimeter to check the voltages, the model escapes me at the moment. There's no fancy features on the meter, just AC, DC, Diode check, and amp reading. Before I lifted D114, the voltages were around 160vdc.
> 
> I'll check it out over the weekend when I get some time and report my findings for your JD.



Tangent>> 
Ah! By lifting D114 you created a pump! The flyback on the primary being switched by the TNY pushed C131 higher! In any case, it sounds like the transformer and the TNY are working fine. I would look next at the voltage between pin 2 and 4 to see if the opto is shutting it down. Whatever you do, don't open the pin 4 / opto loop as that would cause a runaway reaction in the switcher.


----------



## Trike

JD, 

I did some more tests as you suggested. I'm noticing weird things now, I put D114 back in circuit, and the C131 starts at 315vdc and settles around 270vdc. I know when we first started troubleshooting, I was getting around 160vdc at C131.

Measuring pin 2 and 4 on the tny255, I saw it slowly rise from .5vdc to 1.7vdc then drop back down to .3vdc. It doesn't seem to settle, it will slowly rise and appears to slowly drop.
Measuring pin 2 and 5 on the tny255, I'm getting .44vdc

I do hear a really faint buzzing too coming from around the transformer area. 

Not sure what to make of the weird voltages we're seeing from the rectifier, especially after putting D114 back in circuit. Using the diode test function on the multimeter is showing D114 is good. 

Thanks again for all your help.


----------



## JD

Trike said:


> Measuring pin 2 and 5 on the tny255, I'm getting .44vdc



If, and only if that voltage is correct, then you have your answer! There is no way the primary of that transformer is dropping the rest of that voltage. It is open.

That being said, some of these voltages make so little sense, I think it's time to recheck them with another meter. 315vdc on C1, off of 120vac source, with the primary open makes no sense.


----------



## Trike

Thanks JD, I know I have a cheapie harbor freight multi meter somewhere. I'll compare it to the Fluke 73 I've been using. But yeah, I'm measuring 119vac going into the rectifier and getting over 300vdc on the output of the rectifier. Checking my fluke against a 12v source is showing the correct 12v. 

How "standard" are these transformers? I looked up the part# for it and didn't get any hits besides the martin specific parts that are unavailable now. The only specs I saw is that, it's a 3-10w transformer.


----------



## JD

That is a popular switching circuit, so I am sure there is an equivalent out there. If indeed the other meter agrees, then it is time to carefully check the board for any ring cracks around the transformer pads. If none are found, unsolder the transformer and measure the primary ohms out of circuit. It it measures open, then let the search begin.


----------



## Jay Ashworth

JD said:


> For extra punch, use 10/3 as your cable. High power strobes fire the lamp right across the line, so it is effectively a very brief dead short! Current is limited by longer length cables and the resistance of whatever cable gauge is being used. The bigger the pipe, the brighter the flash. Although the "run" current is below 20 amps, the actual peak current during the flash is what makes or breaks it. Try running one in the shop as a test off a 100 foot length of 16/3, 12/3, and 10/3 and you will see what I mean.



So, this leads me to a followup question for our NEC guys:

If you were installing a single-receptacle 240/20 branch circuit for this, which would normally require 12AWG THHW (I think) in the conduit, could you leave the breaker and receptacle at 20A, but go to 10AWG for this reason without violating code? As long as the breaker is not rated higher than the receptacle, and the wire is rated at least as high, you're golden, right?


----------



## JD

Jay Ashworth said:


> So, this leads me to a followup question for our NEC guys:
> 
> If you were installing a single-receptacle 240/20 branch circuit for this, which would normally require 12AWG THHW (I think) in the conduit, could you leave the breaker and receptacle at 20A, but go to 10AWG for this reason without violating code? As long as the breaker is not rated higher than the receptacle, and the wire is rated at least as high, you're golden, right?


Considering, the up-gauge is required on longer runs, I would sure think so! The only thing that might shoot it down is if the receptacle itself was not rated to handle #10.


----------



## Jay Ashworth

Ah. See, I never did commercial, so I didn't realize they did that. Could that leave you in a circumstance where -- as someone recently... oh, no, that was on the Transmitter Sites group.

Well, in any event, if you had to upsize the run, and the fixture wouldn't accept it, would that be a valid reason for a different-size down-splice without additional OC protection? Assuming "yes".


----------



## JD

Mr @STEVETERRY would know for sure, but there are two common applications where a 20 amp circuit is run with #10. The first is length, and the second is the current de-rating that occurs as you increase the number of conductors in a given run. One would thing you could drop to #12 at the receptacl via wire nuts. I have often seen stranded THHN switched to solid at the receptacle box for the last two inches. The stranded cable makes for an easier pull, and the solid for a better connection on screw terminal receptacles.


----------



## MikeJ

Current on an Atomic 3000 is Listed as 8 amps, and 33 amps peak. They should be run on a 20A circuit, and they have a 20A slow blow fuse in the fixture, fwiw. I doubt in real world conditions, you will notice any difference between 12 and 10ga cable. Just make sure whatever you use is SOOW.


----------



## JD

MikeJ said:


> Current on an Atomic 3000 is Listed as 8 amps, and 33 amps peak. They should be run on a 20A circuit, and they have a 20A slow blow fuse in the fixture, fwiw. I doubt in real world conditions, you will notice any difference between 12 and 10ga cable. Just make sure whatever you use is SOOW.


You would be very surprised! The strobe works by firing the lamp as a virtual "dead short*" across the AC line. As such, everything you see is that fraction of a second while the short is occurring. Atomics, like the Diversitronicss of old work on this rather than a storage capacitor. I remember having a 75 foot run to one (superstrobe 50) and I tried 16, 14, 12, and finally 10. Once I tried the 10, I never looked back! 
Now, this was a 120 volt model. A number 12 for 240 would probably be fine. 

* = there is some voltage drop across the lamp, so it is not exactly a dead short.


----------



## MikeJ

I might give it a try when I finally see the new Elation LED strobe that is supposed to be brighter then an atomic, just for comparison.
It would really be just an academic experiment though, because I'm not buying 10ga Socapex.



EDIT: I only run the 208v model, the the difference might be less pronounced.


----------



## Dionysus

JD said:


> Mr @STEVETERRY would know for sure, but there are two common applications where a 20 amp circuit is run with #10. The first is length, and the second is the current de-rating that occurs as you increase the number of conductors in a given run. One would thing you could drop to #12 at the receptacl via wire nuts. I have often seen stranded THHN switched to solid at the receptacle box for the last two inches. The stranded cable makes for an easier pull, and the solid for a better connection on screw terminal receptacles.



Yes if the device can not take the up-sized wire you can downsize (usually with wire nuts) or change from stranded to solid or what-naught (or AL to CU). Done all of the above.

As per not up-sizing in residential i've had to do it many times, and actually code here has changed to make it so you have to do it even more often. So #12 is being used in residential far more often than it had. Then again all of the 15A devices are rated for #12awg which helps.


----------



## ship

10ga stranded for the run, wire nutted to solid wire for a better connection at the outlet... The less splices the better especially a wire nut splice in converting stranded to solid where possible I personally don't recommend. This weak splice that is going to be in the system as long as it's wired so as to make for an easier pull.

I love 10ga solid, after that if doing stranded I would prefer a crimp terminal into the outlet over a wire nut solid to stranded splice in making the connection. Just my opinion. I don't think going 10Ga unless a long run is needed for strobes but it won't hurt if you want to run it. Certainly won't have any voltage drop problems. Switching circuit breaker types might be a solution, or if old circuit breakers swapping them out could be a solution. (Circuit breakers do become "trippy" if they trip a lot.)


----------



## macdiv

Good day all , i think i will need an expert here in the Atomic 3k board .... it cams with a defective lamp , and some blown resistors , and 2NB60, BYG20J,T410600B,TLP3055 ,,,all replaced and still the piece is OOO , 5Vdc is there , TNY55 Circuit is working OK , when powering the fan spine for 2 second with a flashing LED then nothing happened , i test the lamp with a working one and its OK , thermos SW is OK too , i checked all the diodes and SMD resistors and they all are fine i really don't know what is going on with this piece


----------



## macdiv

macdiv said:


> Good day all , i think i will need an expert here in the Atomic 3k board .... it cams with a defective lamp , and some blown resistors , and 2NB60, BYG20J,T410600B,TLP3055 ,,,all replaced and still the piece is OOO , 5Vdc is there , TNY55 Circuit is working OK , when powering the fan spine for 2 second with a flashing LED then nothing happened , i test the lamp with a working one and its OK , thermos SW is OK too , i checked all the diodes and SMD resistors and they all are fine i really don't know what is going on with this piece


finally problem solved ,,,,, thanks for all those who helped me ,,,,hhhhhaaa


----------



## Jay Ashworth

Don't forget the social contract of getting help for free on the internet: your payment is to tell us how you solved the problem, so people searching later with the same problem get to take advantage.


----------



## macdiv

Jay Ashworth said:


> Don't forget the social contract of getting help for free on the internet: your payment is to tell us how you solved the problem, so people searching later with the same problem get to take advantage.


Thanks for the advice ,,, i almost forgot that there was a community viewing my problem cos i didn't view ANY sort of help ,,where as most of the time if you find this response you got a little push and that when even some one said (((( this is really a difficult issio or keep digging , or this is very strange problem )) but even those replay i didn't find ,,,,
Any way the problem where duo to a broken through holes in the line of the trigger transformer


----------



## Jay Ashworth

Oh. See I couldn't tell, cause you tailgated on someone else's thread and this was page 5. Sorry about that.


----------



## derekleffew

Jay Ashworth said:


> Oh. See I couldn't tell, cause you tailgated on someone else's thread and this was page 5.


Actually, @macdiv started a brand new, from scratch thread, but since the topic was similar to an existing thread, a moderator merged the two. Most users prefer all information pertaining to a particular topic be all in one place, thus thread-merging is done all the time (but not always, as threads/posts do slip by our "human" moderators).

With previous versions of forum software, one was able to tell from the post titles that posts/threads had been moved or merged. We're looking into reviving this feature, but currently have no timetable for implementation.

Sorry for the confusion, but glad that @macdiv's issue got resolved.


----------



## Jay Ashworth

Ah. Yeah; that seems a loss. That said, I'm not that fond of /this particular merge/, though what part of that is because it wasn't flagged as such I can't say really objectively.


----------



## Eurotronic

Hi there everyone. 
I' currently trying to repair 2 Atomic 3000 that my boss buy as faulty. Search around the web Brought me here.
Some previous guys tried to fixed the strobos, but he cant make them work. I want to do it properly.
Can some of you send me a link for the schematic please? I saw that JD put one on the thread, but the file is too small, i cant read anything.
In advance, thank you for the help.
David


----------



## Eurotronic

Found it! 

Here is a bigger pic for the next searcher,


----------



## Eurotronic

Mmm... Dont appear nicely on thread..
Here is a link:

http://www.controlbooth.com/media/martin-atomic-3000-schematic.29/


----------



## jelimoore

Sorry to necro such an old thread, just wanted to ask. Some people earlier discussed running a MAX-15 lamp meant for 208 on 120v. Assuming I flip the PL113 jumper on the board, can I do this without risking burning anything up? Everywhere I look, the US lamp holders are ~$100 for a pair. I'd rather not spend that, plus the price of a lamp, on something that will be half as bright when I already have a Dataflash AF1000.


----------



## Gobokat

From what I remember you really won't be happy with the output of the MAX-15 lamp on 120v. Back when I was working in a rental shop we were changing our Atomics over between 120 and 208 operation (edison to twist, lamp brackets, lamps, and jumpers on the motherboard) which means drilling out rivets and keeping double inventory of lamps, but the only real way to keep clients happy was to have the right lamp (Max 7 or Max 15) matched to the requested operating voltage.


----------



## Irwin

From the Atomic 3000 manual: "The MAX-15 model will in theory accept AC power from 125 to 250 volts, but for optimum light output we only approve use with power rated from 200 to 240 volts nominal." There is no mention of changing the PL113 jumper, which IMHO implies that the jumper should correspond to the lamp type, not the mains voltage.


----------

