# Prop gun that fires



## sully151 (Mar 7, 2015)

We are doing a production that requires a prop gun to be fired on stage. I have been given the task of finding one.

What should I look for and where would I find it. We are a small 50 seat back box so it can't be crazy loud.

I found a gun that shoots 6mm blanks. Is this good?


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## JohnD (Mar 7, 2015)

Short answer: NO, blanks can be deadly, and in a small space more so.
http://www.propguys.com/gundanger/


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## sully151 (Mar 7, 2015)

Thanks, John. Aside from a sound cue, what would you guys suggest? Cap gun?


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## Amiers (Mar 7, 2015)

Cap gun or a spring loaded pellet gun. They make enough noise but it won't be as real as a gunshot sound cue.


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## BernsBright (Mar 7, 2015)

This is well outside my expertise, but I would not want to be responsible for or even present in a production using any sort of gun that has or had the capability to fire any projectile. Even an airgun can cause serious injury. I use a springer air gun to rid my garden of groundhogs. There are now three fewer groundhogs on my property. 

With the possibility of something entering the barrel, and being unintentionally fired (anything: pellets, a tiny stone, a potato bug, etc), do not risk it. Let your actors concentrate on their performance without concern for what could go wrong.


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## sully151 (Mar 7, 2015)

What about a starter pistol? Isn't the barrel sealed so there can't be a projectile?


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## carproelsofly (Mar 7, 2015)

Another option is to have a dedicated, trained stagehand offstage who fires a half- or quarter-load blank in sync with the action on stage. Be sure to hire a certified stage fight choreographer/armorer to help you acquire the weapon and train ALL of your personnel in safe behavior around the weapon, and train the firing stagehand in all procedures regarding safe handling and firing of the weapon.

In general:
Check with local PTB regarding permitting.
Ensure a separate, locked location for the weapon and for the ammunition (2 different locations).
Establish and track custody of the firing weapon from when the cabinets are unlocked until they are locked again post-performance.
Use visual and tactile marking (spike and grip tape, for example) on one of the weapons, so that they can be distiguished visually and by touch.

Again, the first step is hiring a certified person. They will know how to proceed.

HTH,
Jen


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## Scenemaster60 (Mar 7, 2015)

There are plenty of prop firearms out there that fire blank loads. I worked with three of them last fall for a production of "Blood Brothers". We were working in an alley configuration in a black box that seats about 100. The room itself was 50x50 with a 24 foot ceiling. We needed one larger pistol-style prop firearm that Mickey would fire at Eddy and then two other matching prop firearms that the police would fire at Mickey.

After consulting with a couple of fight/weaponry guys and testing about 10 different prop firearms in the space what we finally settled on was this:

Mickey's prop firearm would be a replica .38 pistol that was designed and sold as a live stage prop. These prop firearms have solid barrels and an orange cap at the end of the barrel to signify that they are indeed props. In this firearm we fired 1/2 load blanks.

The police each fired a 6mm starter pistol with the tiny acorn blanks in them.

We were performing in a municipal arts center so this is how the chain of custody worked: The prop firearms were stored in a cabinet in the operations directors office (who is a gun guy, BTW). Each night, I would ask him for the prop firearms and he would release them to my custody. I would then keep them at my side until intermission. At intermission I loaded them and placed them in hidden areas on the set where they would retrieved by the actors. These areas were visible such that I would have known if anyone other than the actors that were trained to use them had made a grab for them. Right before curtain call, the prop firearms were handed to me personally and I then unloaded and cleaned them after every performance and then returned them to manager's office. 

Another procedure that was strictly followed was one of calling out "loading prop firearms" before I loaded them and "unloading prop firearms" before unload them. This way if one accidentally went off people would know that an accident has happened with the prop and that a live gun has not been fired.

The actors that fired the prop firearms received training on their proper use from our weapons guy and had ample opportunity to fire test rounds in the space so that they were able to get familiar with the sound and feel of the experience.

Also, notice that I never referred to any of the prop firearms as a "gun". You never, ever say "gun" in a theatre unless it's in the script or someone has a real gun! Always refer to it as a prop firearm.

Before you do any of this, make sure you talk with the management of the theatre and check to see if any permitting is necessary. In the particular suburb of the Twin Cities where we were performing, none of this was required. Your experience may vary!


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## balderson04 (Mar 7, 2015)

In a small space like the one in question, excellent results can be had with a very simple device: two 4 foot lengths of 1 X 4, hinged at one end, with a string attached to the other end of one of the strips. Lay the device on the stage, place a foot on the hinge end, pull up the string and let 'er slam down. A bit of timing and some acting on stage can make it convincing and very safe.

And, no need for pyrotechnicians or handling of powder charges.


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## danhr (Mar 8, 2015)

For _Evil Dead the Musical _ we took a toy shotgun with a sound effects module inside and mounted a wireless microphone inside the stock and piped it through. It made both the cocking and firing sounds and was quite effective.


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## Footer (Mar 8, 2015)

Scenemaster60 said:


> The police each fired a 6mm starter pistol with the tiny acorn blanks in them.
> 
> We were performing in a municipal arts center so this is how the chain of custody worked: The prop firearms were stored in a cabinet in the operations directors office (who is a gun guy, BTW). Each night, I would ask him for the prop firearms and he would release them to my custody. I would then keep them at my side until intermission. At intermission I loaded them and placed them in hidden areas on the set where they would retrieved by the actors. These areas were visible such that I would have known if anyone other than the actors that were trained to use them had made a grab for them. Right before curtain call, the prop firearms were handed to me personally and I then unloaded and cleaned them after every performance and then returned them to manager's office.
> 
> ...



You have some glaring issues with your procedure. First, it is a gun. No getting around that. Thinking of it not as a gun for a single second is dangerous. Starter pistols have killed people. It is NOT a prop.

Second, the actors using the firearm should be the ones doing the loading, not you. Proper procedure is...
-Crew member gets firearm from gun safe
-All actors involved in the firing including the person being fired at inspect the firearm
-Person being fired at loads the weapon.
-Everyone checks the firearm again
-Firearm is locked up
-Before the firearm goes on everyone inspects the gun again
-Scene happens
-Firearm is taken offstage and the chamber is cleared
-firearm is cleaned and returned to the gun safe

Same operation happens every single show. They should always be treated as real live weapons... because they are real live weapons.

Further, even guns that have a filled chamber, filled barrel, and welded trigger should still be treated as real guns. Chamber checks at every possible moment and a gun safes are STILL a must.

If you want to use a weapon like this for a show (or a sword for that matter), the ONLY place to go is here: http://weaponsofchoice.com/

To the OP, if you don't know where to find a prop gun odds are you probably should not be doing this on your own. You can still do it, but get someone in who knows what they are doing, can train everyone, and ensure everyone stays safe. This is a GREAT place to start: http://www.safd.org/


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## Robert (Mar 9, 2015)

My cast does not load a weapon. I load it in front of them and lock it till needed. Only a trained professional loads weapons. Not calling it a gun is semantics and explainable at the training session. I also bring in the security team to the training session. Too many people have been shot at by police when they seem to be carrying a weapon.


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## Scenemaster60 (Mar 9, 2015)

I guess we did it incorrectly. 

I was following the advice of my professional weaponry people and had the sign-off from the building management and security people. 

If you fear that my post will inspire people to use live stage firearms unsafely, please remove it.


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## Footer (Mar 9, 2015)

Scenemaster60 said:


> I guess we did it incorrectly.
> 
> I was following the advice of my professional weaponry people and had the sign-off from the building management and security people.
> 
> If you fear that my post will inspire people to use live stage firearms unsafely, please remove it.



There are a thousand ways to skin this cat. Most times people deal with this they do it more thinking about the gun getting into the wrong hands vs what can happen to the person being shot at in the right hands. My feeling has always been that the person getting shot at should have every opportunity to ensure the firearm is not going to kill them. I also feel that everyone involved in the shooting of the gun should be brought up to a "professional" level of training or they should not be doing the scene. 

Not saying your way was wrong, but there are procedures that can make it safer. When it comes to firearms there should be checks by multiple people to keep everyone safe. 

Some interesting reading here: http://propguys.com/gundanger/


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## josh88 (Mar 10, 2015)

Footer said:


> If you want to use a weapon like this for a show (or a sword for that matter), the ONLY place to go is here: http://weaponsofchoice.com/



There are plenty of places to get stage blades. Weapon of choice is great if you're renting weapons but there are a ton of other reputable blade manufacturers that also rent. As footer mentions they are all weapons. there are training intensives all over that offer safe gun handling practices for stage. The safd has spent a lot of time focusing more on guns in recent years.


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## balderson04 (Mar 11, 2015)

Footer said:


> My feeling has always been that the person getting shot at should have every opportunity to ensure the firearm is not going to kill them.



I was supposed to be shot with a shotgun once, back in university. They went to a gun-shop and had the guy make them some "small" quarter loads. I insisted on trying it first. I placed the muzzle into a steel bucket to catch any residue, yelled "Fire in the hole!" -- and proceeded to blow the bottom out of the bucket with the "safe" load. The director was mad at me for scaring everyone by yelling.

Ended up with a .22 calibre blank in place of the primer in the shotgun shell. Even then, the sheet of white flame coming at me across the stage was about four feet wide.

The guy getting shot at gets to pull the trigger first.


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## Terrence MacArthur (Mar 11, 2015)

Scenemaster60 said:


> There are plenty of prop firearms out there that fire blank loads. I worked with three of them last fall for a production of "Blood Brothers". We were working in an alley configuration in a black box that seats about 100. The room itself was 50x50 with a 24 foot ceiling. We needed one larger pistol-style prop firearm that Mickey would fire at Eddy and then two other matching prop firearms that the police would fire at Mickey.
> 
> After consulting with a couple of fight/weaponry guys and testing about 10 different prop firearms in the space what we finally settled on was this:
> 
> ...



Excellent procedure. The thing about prop guns is that many do NOT have the orange on the barrel, and look like the real thing, even up close. And some black paint can make even those that do look entirely real. They have to be tightly controlled to preclude anyone getting one and using it for some nefarious purpose. And check with your local authorities. Some places, such as NYC, have very strict laws concerning these things, others, like Utah, don't.

If you want to, buy a gun magazine and you'll probably find ads for guns that look exactly like the real thing, make a realistic noise, but are safe because the barrels are blocked, and are legal in the US. Some blank/tear gas guns, like those that can be found in Germany, are illegal in the US.


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## josh88 (Mar 11, 2015)

balderson04 said:


> Ended up with a .22 calibre blank in place of the primer in the shotgun shell. Even then, the sheet of white flame coming at me across the stage was about four feet wide.
> 
> The guy getting shot at gets to pull the trigger first.



And hopefully the gun was aimed off target. Never fire a gun at an actor, it should always be up or downstage of the target with a clear path. Upstage being the better option so that its at a further angle to the audience.


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## balderson04 (Mar 14, 2015)

josh88 said:


> And hopefully the gun was aimed off target. Never fire a gun at an actor, it should always be up or downstage of the target with a clear path. Upstage being the better option so that its at a further angle to the audience.



Yes. Should have said that.


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## SHCP (Mar 19, 2015)

In such a small space, you may certainly get away with a cap gun. I have a prop gun that shoots blanks and even the quarter load is very loud. I have a pretty good selection of cap guns from the really cheap to very realistic, and honestly some of the ring caps that they fire are really loud. They are much safer to use for all involved. It may be worth going on Amazon and buying a couple of "quality" cap guns and seeing if they fit your needs before jumping into blanks.


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## RideTheSquirrel (Mar 20, 2015)

Scenemaster60 said:


> Also, notice that I never referred to any of the prop firearms as a "gun". You never, ever say "gun" in a theatre unless it's in the script or someone has a real gun! Always refer to it as a prop firearm.



@Scenemaster60 is actually politically correct. I would refer to it as a firearm instead of a gun. Mostly because in the rare event that someone actually has a gun in the theater; I've never heard someone scream "HE'S GOT A FIREARM!!" before... It's typically referred to as a gun in that situation. A firearm is a great PC term to get in the habit of using for the subtlty of that reason alone. ... Or maybe I'm just too particular about things like this...


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## Dionysus (Mar 21, 2015)

RideTheSquirrel said:


> @Scenemaster60 is actually politically correct. I would refer to it as a firearm instead of a gun. Mostly because in the rare event that someone actually has a gun in the theater; I've never heard someone scream "HE'S GOT A FIREARM!!" before... It's typically referred to as a gun in that situation. A firearm is a great PC term to get in the habit of using for the subtlty of that reason alone. ... Or maybe I'm just too particular about things like this...


Actually TECHNICALLY "Guns are on ships" (or such), you couldn't carry one if you tried.... lol sorry, heard that enough from some people. Rifles or "handgun" or Pistol would be correct along with the generic "firearms".

But yes, don't scream about someone having a "prop" "gun" etc.


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## Bryce_J (Mar 22, 2015)

22mm starter gun for track meets.


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## josh88 (Mar 22, 2015)

http://www.centrefirearms.com/safety.html
They've got full load blanks as well as half and quarter loads. And a decent faq section. And recommend 20 feet be maintained

Also Kevin inouye wrote a great book. As always a book can't stand in for proper training, but it's a nice resource to have.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/0415733987/?tag=controlbooth-20


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