# First Moving head suggestions



## lightingguy1 (Sep 26, 2010)

Hey guys,

So as some as you may know, I'm on the hunt for my first Moving head. I think that Chauvet's Legend spot 550 seems pretty cool, but I have also seen Nw lighting FX movers:
Moving Head Series

all this "crap" coming for china isnt totally worthless..... My ebay LED PARs have lasted thru some pretty hard core marina(yes, outdoors) gigs....

P.S. I have read this ENTIRE thread:

http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/lighting-electrics/8415-north-west-lighting-fx.html 


Thnx


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## Pie4Weebl (Sep 26, 2010)

Well, for under a grand if they crap out you know it is basically a loss.

Keep in mind the amount of moving parts in an LED par is slightly less than the amount in a moving light....


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## soundlight (Sep 26, 2010)

If you can afford them, I've heard excellent things about the Elation Platinum Spot 5R units. Under $2k with the awesome new Phillips 5R lamp. Plus the fixtures are small, take less power, and have a decent selection of stock gobos as well as a very complete featureset.

Hoever, before I go off recommending a whole bunch of different things, what's the purpose? What do you plan to use the fixtures for?


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## lightingguy1 (Sep 26, 2010)

Pie4Weebl said:


> Well, for under a grand if they crap out you know it is basically a loss.
> 
> Keep in mind the amount of moving parts in an LED par is slightly less than the amount in a moving light....


 
I remember seeing a reply to the thread of "Hey, I thought we could share pictures of our shows"

And some teenager had a Some NW lighting fx movers under the direction of CHAMSYS Q on mac. I'm still trying to find that certain poster..... If you would like to go thru and skim aswelll, It would help to Find one person who has had experience with them...

Thnx!
-lightingguy1


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## lightingguy1 (Sep 26, 2010)

soundlight said:


> If you can afford them, I've heard excellent things about the Elation Platinum Spot 5R units. Under $2k with the awesome new Phillips 5R lamp. Plus the fixtures are small, take less power, and have a decent selection of stock gobos as well as a very complete featureset.
> 
> Hoever, before I go off recommending a whole bunch of different things, what's the purpose? What do you plan to use the fixtures for?


 
The purpose is to Use them/it in this Performing arts center and some local marina Jobs aswell:




I have seen that Fixture, The only set back to that unit is it only has like 8 colors.


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## lightingguy1 (Sep 27, 2010)

Ok, so I have found the person that has used a NW lighting FX fixture. Its on page 15 of the "hey, I though we could share pictures of our shows"


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## Pie4Weebl (Sep 27, 2010)

awesome, pm him to come post in this thread and lets see if those lights still work!


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## lightingguy1 (Sep 27, 2010)

In the meantime, Are the G- lites moving heads around the same price range of NW lighting FX units?



Thnx


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## Footer (Sep 27, 2010)

At least he will be at a marina so he can easily sell off those boat anchors when they die....

There have been a few people who have used the chinese knock offs around here. They report pretty well when they first get them. I have yet to hear a follow up. I don't know if thats a good thing or a bad thing. Remember, you get what you pay for. If its show critical gear, spend the cash.


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## lightingguy1 (Sep 27, 2010)

I would like to present this opinion of the Pass Spot 575 12 Channel Moving Head, on behalf of DHSLXOP:


> "I personally love the NW Lighting FX fixtures. They are a decent beginning or low budget moving light, and can be used for both theatrical and DJ/Party type events. However, I have a number of things to warn you about:
> 
> (1)The company is located in Seattle, Washington...and that is their only location. So the problem that I had was that when they shipped from Seattle to South Florida, they had some minor damage (the color wheel in one fixture and the prism in another were both misaligned) However, their customer service was great and they were able to send me new fixtures that worked. While the company isn't a bad company, the fact that they had to travel across the country damaged them. The other thing about them is that, since they only have one location in Washington, there are no certified repair shops to fix them if something were to go wrong - you have to send them back to them.
> 
> ...


-In fact, I Have heard that the Company actually has improved their shipping standards, so issuse # 1 may not be an issue after all!

@Footer, He was been using this units since July 20th, 2008, Go look at "Hey, I though we could share pictures of our shows". 

let's assemble a timeline shall we:

1) He wrote a post on sharing pics of his show. - July 20th, 2008

2) He sent the opinion above on September 27th, 2010

He didn't mention ANY current problems with the fixtures to date.........

Do the math(logic actually)....... THEY STILL WORK 2-3 YEARS LATER(he could of had them longer)!!

(And after the pyro smoke settles, the curtain falls, and house lights illuminate) 
Thnx
-Lightingguy1


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## Footer (Sep 27, 2010)

If you can sleep at night using blatant Martin rip-offs, go for it. However, I can not. If you argue they are not martin rip-offs, its time to open your eyes. CB is not the place to come to discuss products that are reverse engineered patent violators. CB survives by support from companies that pour millions into R&D to make great products. We do not want to see the companies that rip-off patent holders get a voice on CB. 

Martins Mac 250...


NW Lighting FX Rip Off Mac 250...


I could do that for nearly every light they make. If you do buy these, know that not only are you supporting a company that stole their design, but you run the high risk that you are going to lose one in a show situation. You can wish all you want that these are at the same quality of the Martin fixtures, but they are not.


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## wah0808 (Sep 27, 2010)

Footer said:


> At least he will be at a marina so he can easily sell off those boat anchors when they die....


 I was thinking, at least in a marina he'd be close to water when they go up in flames...


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## lightingguy1 (Sep 27, 2010)

I totally understand what your saying, but for a 15 year old I think I might want to save $ and not spend $2000 on one light. Yes I understand that this company has done all of this crap, and I do wish I could afford a $2000 Martin mac 250 krypton fixture, but I can't.

Now i guess I will go crawl underneath a rock and keep my mouth shut about this fixture......

Sorry I even brought it up 

Lightingguy1


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## Footer (Sep 27, 2010)

lightingguy1 said:


> I totally understand what your saying, but for a 15 year old I think I might want to save $ and not spend $2000 on one light. Yes I understand that this company has done all of this crap, and I do wish I could afford a $2000 Martin mac 250 krypton fixture, but I can't.
> 
> Now i guess I will go crawl underneath a rock and keep my mouth shut about this fixture......
> 
> ...



We all understand limited funds. Buy all the crappy chinese LED's you want. Those things are not infringing on anything. The electronics are pretty solid and they work well for what they are. The price is certainly right. We don't want to see you spend your hard earned money on something that is just going to fall apart on you. We also have all been in the point where you want to amass a ton of cool toys, especially when you are young. Right now, hold onto your cash. If you need a mover, see if you can't rent it to use. For the amount you want to spend, you can rent a mac-250 for 8 weeks or more.


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## Les (Sep 27, 2010)

We just want you to make good investments. Unless you fully expect these lights to pay for themselves in a year, it would be much better to buy used Mac 250's for about the same price; which will more than likely still outlive these NW lights. 

Really, the BEST thing to do would be to put all that money in a savings account and just sit on it. It's a good time to do so; probably the best. You want your light show to be the best possible, but will you make any more money with moving heads than without? I understand the educational aspect also, but heck, you could buy a few mIn spots for that. Learning moving heads now is great, but surely you will get the chance to do that in the future, and with units you don't have to buy. Those fixtures will likely be better quality also.


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## DuckJordan (Sep 29, 2010)

lightingguy1 said:


> I totally understand what your saying, but for a 15 year old I think I might want to save $ and not spend $2000 on one light. Yes I understand that this company has done all of this crap, and I do wish I could afford a $2000 Martin mac 250 krypton fixture, but I can't.
> 
> Now i guess I will go crawl underneath a rock and keep my mouth shut about this fixture......
> 
> ...


 
Trust me i'm in the same boat, I wanted to get some cool lighting toys for my own personal use (as well as for getting inventory for a small gig type setup) but right now i'm at a mackie 24/4 mixer (but only has mono out, left channel is the only working channel, still need to take it apart to find out, bought used), 4 par 64's, 2 par 16's and gel frames for all. 

I know the cool toys are awesome and I'd love to have some myself, i just don't have the money for them at the moment, But I am still not going to buy a blatent rip off of a respected companies product, while you may think you are saving money right now, you are actually going to spend more money in the long run. With the fact that the replacement parts are going to be more spendy, they will break down much faster, (i noticed he did not mention when he serviced them and how often) and for the quality of the service that you are getting with the product. I have worked with both martins and the cheap knock off and i can tell you they are by no means similar in quality, you will notice a tremendous amount of lag between console command and ML function, martin mac 550's took aprox 1 sec to respond on a 15 foot run while the knock offs took almost 3 full seconds. So remember YOU ARE PAYING FOR JUNK.

This is by no means an attack on you, its merely stating a fact that you can either A: read and work off it, or B: ignore completely and be angry later.


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## DHSLXOP (Sep 29, 2010)

Ok....I think I need to put in my 2 cents, considering lightingguy1's original post was from information that I posted. 

Now, before I start, I want to just say that I agree completely with (and respect) Footer's opinion about the instruments being knock-offs of Martin Products, and them not being as reliable as Martins or other brands (and a lot of the other information that other posters posted about not getting them) HOWEVER: 

The NW Lighting FX fixtures are a reliable fixture within reason. Yes, they company's home is in Washington State, and there are no other more-local re-sellers of this particular product. So yes, when they do break, you do have to ship them back out across the country. However, the only problems that I have had with them were (1) the fixtures arriving with a broken color wheel and prism {which is not the fault of the company, that is the fault of the shipping company not being careful with a flight case that says fragile on it} and (2) wear and tear on the fixtures for not transporting them properly - the only way I was able to transport them between theatres (I freelanced with them, and they otherwise lived in my garage) was in my Dad's truck - not the most reliable way to move moving lights around. So while yes, I have had some issues with them, I believe that those issues are not from the lights themselves, and that they are a reliable fixture. Also, I have gotten rental martins (mac 2000 profiles) that were even more unreliable - the fuses in the fixtures were blowing at least twice a day, to the point where we had to take them back to the rental shop and get new fixtures (that worked fine) 

Another thing is that I originally bought these fixtures to learn the concepts involving moving lights. I had some money saved up that I decided to spend - and you know what, my productions have been aided greatly by having them - I believe that they have been a good investment on my part. Not to mention the experience I got with them was amazing. No they are not Martin fixtures - but, when I first used a Martin this past January, I understood the concepts in both programming the fixture and in how the fixture worked and thought. I was able to comprehend how the light spun, and what each component on the inside was doing to make it work. I didn't have to question anyone about what a prism or color wheel or pan or tilt was because I already knew what they were and how to use them. And I believe that that is the most valuable skill of owning my lights - I could practice for hours in an empty theatre (I used my lights during the summer at a camp that I worked at), and truthfully hone my craft of programming moving lights - not something that I could do in 2 weeks of tech when I had to focus on incorporating cues. 

So in short, while the fixtures may not be the best fixtures in the world, they do get their job done, and have taught me a ton about lighting. 

So again, no disrespect to anyone on this board - I just wanted to contribute my opinion.


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## lightingguy1 (Sep 30, 2010)

Hello all,

To update, I'm going to get a demo of the same fixture DHSLXOP has, for the annual production of dessert and a show my school chorus program puts on. I am going to _try_ to rig them while under the direction of The tech director... Which I'm going to put at least 5 safety cables on each light..... I will post pictures on a new thread afterwards, if everything goes smoothly.....

Actually DHSLXOP, did you ever have latency issues with DMX in these fixtures?


Thnx


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## DHSLXOP (Sep 30, 2010)

lightingguy1 said:


> Hello all,
> 
> To update, I'm going to get a demo of the same fixture DHSLXOP has, for the annual production of dessert and a show my school chorus program puts on. I am going to _try_ to rig them while under the direction of The tech director... Which I'm going to put at least 5 safety cables on each light..... I will post pictures on a new thread afterwards, if everything goes smoothly.....
> 
> ...


 
I don't believe I ever have had any issues with latency that I've noticed. Also, I have hung the fixtures before and they have held up fine. Just make sure you tighten the clamps to the fixture tight - just like you would with any other light.


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## Esoteric (Oct 1, 2010)

Okay, again I ask, does anyone have proof that these are reverse engineered ripoffs? I mean you can say they look the same until your face turns blue but I doubt that holds up in court as "proof". Does anyone know for a fact that they are using the same software? If so, how do you know?

I am not saying that is not the case, but I know of several companies (Irradiant, Blizzard, etc) that build good quality movers (for what they are, they are not Vari-Lites by any means) for a good price. I hate for people to mean mouth these companies without knowing 100% with proof that they stole the software.

To the OP, take a look at Blizzards Polaris unit. Very well built, LED source, light output is similar to the MAC250. It does lack some of the bells and whistles, but is a good starting unit at a great price.

Of course the American DJ and Elation VIZI spot units are also great units at a good price and they have the output of a 575W unit.

Mike


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## soundlight (Oct 1, 2010)

It's not the software copying that's the crime with moving lights, software is the crime for console. It's copying the innards of a moving light part for part that is the crime. However, since the lights are being imported in to the US and sold in the US, I'm gonna hazard a guess that they're legal. That doesn't mean they aren't blatant ripoffs, though - the exact details of the head design and yoke design of the MAC250 series have been copied to the NW fixture, which is apparently a series of generic movers from China that the owner of NW imports. When plastic molding details like that are copied it's pretty obvious. I heard that he designs the LED fixtures himself, however, which is awesome. So essentially I'd consider buying NW LED fixtures but not movers.

Blizzard also has some fixtures that are designed after other fixtures - Chauvet in particular, and the owner even says that he wanted to improve on fixtures like Chauvet's, if I remember right. However they have a lot of other fixtures which seem to be very well designed and have great output for LED movers like the Polaris that Esoteric mentioned. Take a look at that.

And I'll throw in another recommendation for the ADJ VIZI Spot 5R, the cheaper version of the Platinum Spot 5R.


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## Esoteric (Oct 1, 2010)

Keep in mind to "improve upon" and to "copy" or "ripoff" are two different things. If the second were illegal or immoral then ETC would be being sued by Altman. I have no problem with what Blizzard is doing on any of their products. All the fixtures are designed by him even though they are produced in China. I feel the same about WDM and Irradiant.

I have never opened (or even bought) one of those NW Lighting movers. I don't know personally if they look the same as the MAC250 on the inside or not. But considering Martin is a Danish (I think) company I would think they would have international patents on their equipment, so if there were grounds to bring suit, I am sure they would.

Seeing as how they haven't, I am not sure anyone can say that they have proof that these are illegal knock offs.

Mike


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## photoatdv (Oct 1, 2010)

DHSLXOP-- Have you worked with mac250s? If so, ARE the NW units exactly copied from the mac250s? That or can you post a picture of the inside of the head of one? I'm sure someone on here has a mac250 within easy reach to compare to (preferable to post a picture of as well so we can all draw our own conclusions).


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## DHSLXOP (Oct 1, 2010)

photoatdv said:


> DHSLXOP-- Have you worked with mac250s? If so, ARE the NW units exactly copied from the mac250s? That or can you post a picture of the inside of the head of one? I'm sure someone on here has a mac250 within easy reach to compare to (preferable to post a picture of as well so we can all draw our own conclusions).


 
I have only used the 250 in an extent of hanging them while working on an electrics load-in for a rental. I don't really remember how the two fixtures compare. I'm away at school (I'm in Boston, the lights are in Florida) but I think my dad has watched me open them up enough to know how to do it - I can ask him to try and get a picture.


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## lightingguy1 (Oct 1, 2010)

To all you who are following this post: 


NW lighting FX isn't the only who is doing this!
check out these movers:

:: G-Lites ::

And the worst part about these movers are the price! The 575s is like 3k, AND IT IS STILL COMING FROM CHINA!!!!!! 

But I'm still going to get a demo for my school's show.

Thnx!
-Lightingguy1


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## photoatdv (Oct 1, 2010)

DHSLXOP said:


> I have only used the 250 in an extent of hanging them while working on an electrics load-in for a rental. I don't really remember how the two fixtures compare. I'm away at school (I'm in Boston, the lights are in Florida) but I think my dad has watched me open them up enough to know how to do it - I can ask him to try and get a picture.


 
Thank you. I'm actually rather interested in whether they are actual copies because a group I work with is looking at these. The fact that NW Lighting is in the US and is not being sued by Martin makes me inclined to think they are not illegal. However if they turn out to be complete clones it would negatively influence my recommendations!


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## lightingguy1 (Oct 1, 2010)

@DHSLXOP

- How loud are they when operating in a normal state? Also, When you have fast mechanical changes within the instrument, Can you hear it?

Thnx for posting in this thread!
-Lightingguy1


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## DHSLXOP (Oct 2, 2010)

lightingguy1 said:


> @DHSLXOP
> 
> - How loud are they when operating in a normal state? Also, When you have fast mechanical changes within the instrument, Can you hear it?
> 
> ...


 
To be completely honest, I've generally been far enough away from the lights (ie: in the booth and they're sitting on stage) to not hear anything. I don't know what its like if you are in the audience. And when programming them, I haven't really paid attention to how loud they are because I've focused my attention on what they are doing, not necessarily how loud they are. Sorry I can't be more helpful on this one....


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## Tex (Oct 2, 2010)

lightingguy1 said:


> Which I'm going to put at least 5 safety cables on each light.....


 More is not necessarily better. Read the manual and put the recommended number of cables in the places that the instructions tell you to. It doesn't matter how many safety cables you put on if they're in the wrong place...


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## lightingguy1 (Oct 2, 2010)

Tex said:


> More is not necessarily better. Read the manual and put the recommended number of cables in the places that the instructions tell you to. It doesn't matter how many safety cables you put on if they're in the wrong place...


 
True that! I meant, To have one safety cable hooked on where it's supposed to go and have two on each carrying handle just in case.....


Thnx!
-Lightingguy1


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## photoatdv (Oct 2, 2010)

lightingguy1 said:


> True that! I meant, To have one safety cable hooked on where it's supposed to go and have two on each carrying handle just in case.....
> 
> 
> Thnx!
> -Lightingguy1



I doubt you need the extra 4. It doesn't sound like this light is likely to self destruct...


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## Les (Oct 2, 2010)

lightingguy1 said:


> True that! I meant, To have one safety cable hooked on where it's supposed to go and have two on each carrying handle just in case.....
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You might scratch the idea of safety cabling the handles. I doubt they're shock rated for the load they would endure if the light fell, and if they catch before the dedicated safety cable attachment point does, you might have plastic body pieces falling in to the audience, or whatever happens to be below the fixtures.


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## lightingguy1 (Oct 2, 2010)

to the people who are concerned with whether these fixture are reverse engineered,

You should do a google search for "stone 2048"........

Hmmmmm...Looks quit familiar to an Avolites product.


Thnx!
-Lightingguy1


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## soundlight (Oct 3, 2010)

lightingguy1 said:


> to the people who are concerned with whether these fixture are reverse engineered,
> 
> You should do a google search for "stone 2048"........
> 
> ...



If you didn't catch the recent thread to this effect, those consoles are indeed reverse engineered and use the exact same software as avolites. The software is indeed pirated, and if you read the recent thread to this effect, even directing people to a place where they can purchase a Stone 2048 is banned on the site. The reason that they get away with this is that they only sell direct from china, you can't buy the consoles from a US distributor. The consoles are also insanely unreliable with flaky faders, bad rollacues, crashing, and numerous other issues. That's reverse engineered the Chinese way for ya - looks the same, but doesn't feel the same, and craps out when you need it most. So you have just provided a perfect example as why to not buy reverse engineered lights.


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## Esoteric (Oct 3, 2010)

soundlight said:


> If you didn't catch the recent thread to this effect, those consoles are indeed reverse engineered and use the exact same software as avolites. The software is indeed pirated, and if you read the recent thread to this effect, even directing people to a place where they can purchase a Stone 2048 is banned on the site. The reason that they get away with this is that they only sell direct from china, you can't buy the consoles from a US distributor. The consoles are also insanely unreliable with flaky faders, bad rollacues, crashing, and numerous other issues. That's reverse engineered the Chinese way for ya - looks the same, but doesn't feel the same, and craps out when you need it most. So you have just provided a perfect example as why to not buy reverse engineered lights.


 
Ran a show for a church this weekend with one of these. It is indeed reverse engineered software. They don't even bother to hide it very well. Which is why I won't even point people to these products anymore. These are certainly rip offs and should be illegal.

But as far as feel and use. I didn't notice much of a difference between it and a real AVO to be honest (and I used AVOs for years). They have had theirs for two years. Still works perfectly. There is the rub of China Inc. The stuff can last forever or it might blow up the next day. Of course I have been on a 2 day old Hog that crapped out on me too. The difference is that there is a MUCH greater chance of that happening with China Inc gear. 

Just like I always recommend a DFD Opto Splitter over something like an AMDJ Splitter. Although this is a cause of quality rather than clear intellectual property infringement.

Mike


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## lightingguy1 (Oct 3, 2010)

So I'm going to hijack this thread for maybee more than a second...(srry)

But here is last year's "Dessert and a Show"

last year's theme was Not a another High school musical...

All of the elements of the show were written by the students..except the lighting of course


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## JLA (Oct 4, 2010)

*NW Lighting FX Moving Head lights*

Jeff Lord -Alge here ,
Owner of iMix Productions . Yes Chris and Tom Lord-Alge are my siblings.
Just wanted to share some thoughts about inexpensive intelligent light products from NW Lighting FX. 
I own 12 of their moving heads (8 of the 9 channel 250s and 4 of the 16 channel 250s)
I have used them on at least 500 shows since purchaseing them 4 years ago.
They have performed flawlessly . With the exception of the the odd igniter replacement or bulb I have had no issues .
Bill from NW lighting has been very helpfull in getting me parts asap and has honored the warranty periods ( 1 year from purchase ) on any parts.
I do about 250 shows a year and use these lights for the lower budget projects that can't afford a lot of the high end gear . Club gigs , small ballrooms , regional acts , corporate , weddings etc. even large concerts .
I have had nothing but praise for the NW Lighting fixtures.
I highly recommend it if you are tring to save your own or your clients money.
Cheers Jeff


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## photoatdv (Oct 4, 2010)

*Re: NW Lighting FX Moving Head lights*

I personally spoke to Bill (owner of NW Lighting FX) this morning about his units as my group is considering them. He also mentioned Jeff here-- yes Jeff exists and yes he owns these units. And I think everyone can in fact agree that I am not in fact someone from NW Lighting FX .

Bill and I also had a discussion about the similarities of the units to Martin units and he was able to point out that they are not "clones", but in fact are a competitor (there are differences). Unless someone can provide FACTUAL evidence that these are in fact clones (which I tend to doubt due to the fact Martin would have already sued them if that were the case) I think we should stop calling these ripoffs.

Jeff-- I sent you a PM.


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## JLA (Oct 4, 2010)

*Re: NW Lighting FX Moving Head lights*

okay ,
Let me clear up a few things .
I am Jeff Lord-Alge , I own iMix Productions , iMix Productions - # 1 Full Service Audio Visual Event Production Company in Jackson Hole.
My brothers are Chris and Tom . Google me .
I do about 300 shows a year . Stages lights sound .
I have been in the biz for nearly 30 years . I do not work for NW lighting FX.
I own some of their fixtures ( 12 to be exact) and love them . They are one of the reasons my company is doing so many shows in my region . I save my clients a ton of cash on their production budgets and their shows still look great . I am not sure what all the blah blah blah is about. These units are not rip offs . You can;t boot up a martin profile and go with them . I had to write my own . No problem . For the thousands I saved . I prefer 8 PassSpots w Roadcases to 2 Mac 250s any day. I have personaly done about 500 shows in the 4 years I've owned these with no problems to speak of . I probably sent out just as many show with my guys operating them.
Still no problems . Now I admit , I really know what I am doing and so do the guys I employ. None of us needed to read the manual or even looked at it . When simple things like ignitors needed repair I called the owner of NW Lighting directly and he sent me parts and I installed them . Awesome !! No send it to china or I'll order it from china . Just I have that or I;ll get that for you . 
These are my real experiences . I saved money . I made my clients happy . The products worked great .
I am now so busy doing shows that I do not have much time to spend chit chatting on bulletin boards . I just had to jump in here and speak the truth about my real world experience with some great fixtures that get a bad rap from folks who have never even tried them .
Rock on NW Lighting FX I love your products and so do my clients.
Cheers Jeff Lord-Alge owner iMix Productions iMix Productions - # 1 Full Service Audio Visual Event Production Company in Jackson Hole


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## JLA (Oct 4, 2010)

Hey Guys , Just to clarify!!!!!!!!!!!!
I have used the NW Lighting FX PassSpot 250 9ch fixtures and 16 ch 250s for 4 or 5 years now . Well over 500 shows using a Zero 88 Fat frog to control them as well as an Elation Show Designer 2 at times . No problems , bands like , Skid Row , Great White , The Meat Puppets , Blind Boys of Alabama , Robert Randolph , Los Lobos , Freddie Jones Band , all seem to love the way they looked. 
My small regional production company ends up looking great too! And my clients are happy because I am saving them money.
So if you are not a brand snob , these babies are the real deal for the money.
Jeff Lord-Alge 30 year production vet


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## Footer (Oct 4, 2010)

*Re: NW Lighting FX Moving Head lights*


photoatdv said:


> Bill and I also had a discussion about the similarities of the units to Martin units and he was able to point out that they are not "clones", but in fact are a competitor (there are differences). Unless someone can provide FACTUAL evidence that these are in fact clones (which I tend to doubt due to the fact Martin would have already sued them if that were the case) I think we should stop calling these ripoffs.
> 
> Jeff-- I sent you a PM.



Mats over on LN has been completely silent lately about the Martin knock-offs that are out there. If the lawsuit papers have not been served yet, they are sitting on someones desk waiting to be served. Martin is being VERY tight lipped about this issue. Give Martin a call and ask them for a fixture profile for a NWLighting fixture, let me know if they send it to you. 
Controller fixture library request

> Please note that not all fixture request can be accepted. We reserve the right refuse certain request base on IP infringement of Martin products.



You can not tell me these are not rip-offs. All one has to do is look at the case design to figure out that these are trying to be Martin fixtures. The bolt pattern is identical and vents are identical ....

Yes, you are saving your clients money but you are also costing a company that spent money developing the real fixture money. So, if you want all the cool gadgets, you have to support the company that actually develops the cool gadgets.


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## kendal69 (Oct 4, 2010)

I just purchase (6) Q-Spot™ 260-LED and i am AMAZED to say the least. 
I replace 4 Highend movers that weighed about 80 pounds ea. These LED beauties retail at about $900.00 and weigh about 40 pounds. and do more than the high end lights did. These lights are fast and bright and uses LOW power. 

These babies are my new best friend. Do a search in You tube and see them in action. 

For the money I don't think there's a better light on the planet.


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## MNicolai (Oct 5, 2010)

When you buy into a product, you're not just buying into the physical materials that go into that product, you're buying into the company, service, development, and employees behind that product. So, you, the owner of Company A, have choices when you enter the business. Just after you enter the business, you hire a development team of 15 people for a product line. Once you have a product to sell, you have another 10-20 people in marketing, 5-6 in customer service, and 30-50 in manufacturing. Let's not forget that technology costs money too, so including just the people on your development team plus "stuff," you have a weekly development budget of say $20,000/wk (and we'll say your generous, but not wealthy, giving your engineers and product development managers about $55k/yr).

So you've got roughly a million dollars a year tied up in development, which I'll admit, ignores "luxuries" like dental and health insurance, which employers also have to pay. So before you even have a product, you've got a lot of overhead, and you're still a relatively small company. Let's not forget that the molds, castings, and PCB's for your first, second, third, and fourth prototypes will cost $40,000 each if you're lucky -- another set of costs not already calc'ed into the development overhead.

So optimistically, you've got, we'll say, $1,250,000 a year tied up and you're still not even mass producing or selling a product yet. You haven't even yet hired a guy to clean the bathrooms. (In case you're wondering, his name might be Derrick and he might be using that $30k/yr to feed his family. He also enjoys talking about biking and his two daughters each day when he walks through and empties the trash bins in the development lab.)

Just running your development lab for that single product line you make is wildly expensive and until you're selling a real product, you've got a lot of money circling the drain if you end up developing something that doesn't pan out or takes an unexpectedly large amount of time to ship.

Thus, companies that are willing to settle for not being the best, but possibly the cheapest, have an economic incentive to copy another manufacturer's products._ You _can make a boatload of money because you can effectively skip through all of the hurdles of development. You don't need millions of dollars in development because you just have to make your product look a little bit different and give a few people an impression you did the work on your own. Then you get to ship a product a lot sooner with a lot less overhead, and thusly get to undercut the original manufacturer by selling your copycat for less than their original bit of brilliance. Better yet if you do that all while having an understaffed or nonexistent support staff.

All is good and well while you're raking in the dough, but economics are a zero-sum game. If you're winning, it's because someone is losing. You're offering a product that is almost a direct substitution to the original product and at a far lower price (after all, you don't have to recoup the development overhead costs). You're taking potential sales for their products and claiming them as your own. Therefore, it takes longer for the original manufacturer to recoup their overhead costs (and pay for health insurance for Derrick's daughters), and you reap the benefits.

You didn't benefit at their expense because you were genuinely innovative or provided fair competition -- because you were better than them. You did it by copying the sum of their development expertise and released their product under your name with a different logo stamped onto to it and probably a poor customer service support structure to boot.

Copying a product that already exists serves only to harm the company that was genuinely invested in creating a product of their own. It's only different in semantics, but not in purpose, fairness, or morality than stealing a truckload of their products, stamping your name and serial numbers on them, and reselling them under your name. After all, the money they put into the development of that product is what you're benefiting from.

When you support a company that engages in what can lightly be referred to as unfair economic competition, you serve not only to encourage them to continue copying products pioneered by other companies, but also to drive the original manufacturers into financial ruin.

As was brought up in another thread, there are some fabulous GrandMA and Avolites consoles that have an overwhelming amount of development overhead that go into them. When you choose to purchase a copycat of their product for a fraction of the cost, you willfully damage the sales of genuine GrandMA and Avolites products.

Now if you want to get into the deeper semantics, we can go as far as to say that this is why companies in the United States are losing to competition in China, and thusly are a contributing factor to why there are 15,000,000 unemployed Americans. Not all companies thriving on such copyright infringement are based out of the country, some of them (such as Blizzard) are based in the United States. That's all good and great, but such product development provides no forward thinking or innovation to the nation's manufacturing. They are an intellectual sidestep. First, you aren't advancing technology and making something remarkable -- you're copying something that already exists, stealing intellectual property. Second, when you extend the amount of time it takes for company to recoup its development costs for a product, you then extend the amount of time before they can move on to creating the next innovation.

For nearly 9,000 years, people were hunter-gathers. They followed the food. Their basis for living was staying near what they thrived upon. There was inherent value in what they did because just about anyone who worked provided skills and labor did so in way that kept people alive. When the goal is keeping people alive, there's a simple economic structure. You need food, so you trade with me for it because I gather food. You might or might not have currency, but maybe you have fur, pottery, furniture, or something else. When it comes to you and I trading, either you and I see value in what the other has or we don't. Regardless, you'll give what you need to stay alive because food keeps you alive longer than pottery does.

In the last 150 years or so, things changed. The economy was no longer based on one person going out and killing a wildebeast and bringing back to share with the village, it was based on the factory. As a factory owner, you don't want ingenuinity, people who are smart, or people who are invaluable, you want people who can follow directions. The exception is if you have a development team. The reason you don't want to hire people based on their skills but based on their ability to follow directions is because those people are expendable. You don't have to pay them much because you can replace them easily. If they get hit by a streetcar, the big bus theory isn't violated, and you (the factory owner) still pass go and collect $200.

The factory worked really well for a good 100 years. Then things got shady. In the year of 2010, your best competitor is no longer on the other side of the world, they're a click away on Google. Being 2nd best is no longer good enough because if you don't have a reason for people to enter your store, they'll just buy what they need on Amazon. This is the reason conventional book and CD stores failed. As such, the factory failed. There's limited economic success to be found by people who's primary asset is that they can follow directions and are easily replaced. In the global market, because the company with the best and most innovative products are the first hit on Google and they get the most business. Second best gets little to no recognition because first best is all that customers care about.

A company that chooses to copy the products of other companies therefore may get away with some economic successes for a short while, but ultimately they serve to unfairly harm their competitors and bottleneck and slow the progress of innovation within an industry. If China, Inc. under a worst case scenario were to grab the market share of GrandMA and Avolites, effectively putting them out of business, innovation stops -- it ceases to exist. China, Inc. succeeded by selling copycat products for cheap, but with GrandMA and Avolites gone, not only will they run out of new, innovative products to copy, but the industry as a whole will be damaged. China, Inc. has no intent, desire, or ability to innovate. They're just really good at copying other people's innovations and selling them as their own.

Then, things grind to a halt. Companies stop making breathtaking new products because the companies that did have gone bankrupt, and now people only replace things when they die. They don't buy a new lighting system until their old one is inoperable. Whereas tons of money each year goes towards buying new products, not because the old ones don't work, but because the new ones are _better._ With such unfair competition, truly innovative companies fail, copycat companies persevere on the successes of others, the economy stagnates, people stop buying new stuff, and then we enter the world's most depressing theme park, _Recession Land._

The reason such worst case scenarios don't come true is because companies like Martin, Avolites, GrandMA, Phillips, ETC, and Vari-Lite, the truly innovative geniuses of our industry in this decade, have loyal customers -- customers that will stick by them even when copies of their products can be purchased for half of the price. Also, the entire entertainment industry is a blip on the world's economic radar. If we went under, the ensuing depression among the world would be emotional but not economic. That is, unless you're Derrick, the guy who still has two daughters, no job, no health insurance, and not enough savings to keep the lights turned on.

(the big bus theory states that for the sake of the company, it's best if you have your notes on a project organized such that anyone can take over at any point for any, so should you get hit by a big bus, the company doesn't lose weeks or months of your work that no knows how to take over in your absence.)


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## lightingguy1 (Oct 5, 2010)

kendal69 said:


> I just purchase (6) Q-Spot™ 260-LED and i am AMAZED to say the least.
> I replace 4 Highend movers that weighed about 80 pounds ea. These LED beauties retail at about $900.00 and weigh about 40 pounds. and do more than the high end lights did. These lights are fast and bright and uses LOW power.
> 
> These babies are my new best friend. Do a search in You tube and see them in action.
> ...


 
Have you seen the picture of my venue? LEDs in that place would NEVER stand a chance...............


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## DHSLXOP (Oct 5, 2010)

I think what everyone is forgetting is that these companies (Martin, High End, Vari-Lite, etc) still exist. They haven't closed due to some small location in the middle of the country producing a fixture that looks like the one they sell. Cause, quite frankly, there are tons of products out there that look the same - what matters in quality is what is used inside. If you actually look at the specifications, you can tell that, while they may have the same sorts of features (prism, color wheel, gobo wheel, etc) the mac 250 has way more functionality (such as having double the number of colors, more features on the gobo wheel, etc). So, inside, they are very far from the same light. 

I also believe that you have to realize that not everyone has the money to buy Martin movers, but they may want to own a set of moving lights. Any of the big companies isn't going to look ideal to a small theatre looking to owner a pair of lights - but finding a company that sells a much cheaper fixtures might.

The best analogy is this...

A hamburger is a hamburger wherever you have it. If you look at a hamburger from McDonalds and one from Burger King, they look exactly the same on the outside. What matters is the quality of meat and everything else on the inside. But, even if the Burger King one may be better on the inside, if McDonalds is selling burgers for $1.00 and burger king is still $5.00, people are going to go to McDonalds to buy the product - its the same thing, just cheaper. 

So while it would be nice for everyone who wants movers to own Martins (or any other product), I don't think its right to say that people shouldn't be buying from other lesser-known companies.

Also, I should be getting pictures of the insides later, and i will post them when I get them.


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## DuckJordan (Oct 5, 2010)

DHSLXOP said:


> I think what everyone is forgetting is that these companies (Martin, High End, Vari-Lite, etc) still exist. They haven't closed due to some small location in the middle of the country producing a fixture that looks like the one they sell. Cause, quite frankly, there are tons of products out there that look the same - what matters in quality is what is used inside. If you actually look at the specifications, you can tell that, while they may have the same sorts of features (prism, color wheel, gobo wheel, etc) the mac 250 has way more functionality (such as having double the number of colors, more features on the gobo wheel, etc). So, inside, they are very far from the same light.
> 
> I also believe that you have to realize that not everyone has the money to buy Martin movers, but they may want to own a set of moving lights. Any of the big companies isn't going to look ideal to a small theatre looking to owner a pair of lights - but finding a company that sells a much cheaper fixtures might.
> 
> ...


 

Ah but i completely disagree with you and while using the same analogy. If say McDonalds is selling a hamburger for $1.00 but the local diner sells them for lets say $5.00, but the local dinner uses only good quality beef while the McDonalds has come under many a tarnishes with food born illness and such which would you go to?

These are blatant rip offs they may cost less to produce them by limiting colors and limiting gobo's but they are blatant rip offs. And your exact thinking had this country as a whole circling the drain because people are now looking for cheep products who "Claim to do the same thing" but in reality are less likely to succeed and tell me where did you get your info on big companies such as martin not supporting small theaters, We only have two mac 550's and they still will send a service tech to small town South Dakota to help with any issues we encounter with them. So before you think that theater companies such as Martin or ETC. are much like Microsoft where they would rather sell you something new than fix what you have they are not. (Mac 550's are no longer produced by the way and they expect to carry the parts for another 10 years. 

This is where i see the problem with 15 year olds buying lights, yes they are cool to have, Yes they might get you started on gigs but in the end your hurting not only the rest of the business but your also hurting yourself. the reason most theaters don't have it in their budget to buy things such as moving lights and other pieces of equipment isn't because they couldn't afford them its that their budget which is setup by a board of members doesn't allow enough wiggle room for such pieces of equipment, this means for you that when you hire yourself out to do a gig and they see that you have 10 movers but are only basically charging them for 2 they think that they can move a budget up to cover the costs of those 10 for two when really what you have is going to cost more in the long run. 

They don't see the expenses that come up between a few gigs they only see the expense now. By expenses i mean the broken parts and the new lamp assembly and such that break more often because they aren't as well designed just cheaply designed rip offs.

Yes, many moving lights have the same parts, but what really constitutes them being different is how they utilize the parts inside with the software. (there are only so many ways to make a wheel). This is all great but the china inc. stuff is just taken apart at some factory. Taken molds of and mass producing the crap they molded off one of the real things.


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## shiben (Oct 5, 2010)

Ok so some things I have noticed here. Undoubtedly, the casing on the NW unit is a rip-off on some level. Looks to be the work of a very lazy industrial designer. So a [-]patent[/-] copyright violation on the case. The unit is by all accounts of people who have looked inside of it NOT the same unit. Obviously this is not OK, but I have seen a couple of posts in here that equate a case design to being fully copied design, which inflates the problem. Which brings in the burger analogy. Should NW fix this issue? Sure. If it was a serious enough problem, would Martin most likely have sued them? Yes. Clearly, their priorities are more in line with blatant knockoffs, which replicate the entire unit on a very low level of quality. Obviously those are a real issue, and no one should buy that crap.

But saying that no one should buy lower end units because it hinders innovation is clearly off base. By all accounts of end users, the NW units have less features, less service, and are of lower build quality. Probably justifies paying a ton less for them.

MNicolai, part of your argument is valid. However, I take issue with when you say buying lower end units ends up killing the original designer. Thats called competition. Ever used a cheap phone with a big touch screen that sort of looks like an iphone but running a crappier OS? Same idea. Someone else came in and figured out how to give similar features in a similar case for a lower price and sacrificed some of the quality. Should we be shooting down every low end iPod/iPhone lookalike because someone else engineered a better product with better support? Thats silly.

Further, honestly, thinking that MA, Avo and Martin are going to go out of business because someone is making s*** a** clones and selling them cheap, that professionals and other large buyers will move to those cheap units, is utter folly. When PRG or upstaging starts stocking cheap clones, let me know. I would guess that most of the people who buy cheap NW units are not even in Martin, VL and Barco's market. Either they get cheap MLs or they get none at all. Thus, your probably not actually taking away much business from the big ones, and realistically, the big buyers are going to keep buying from the big names. They know their product, and LDs all across the US and the world know the products, so choose to spec those. Let me know when the first tour rolls out with FINE ART units.

All this to say, this conversation has gotten to the point where its not really sensible. We just brought cave men into a discussion on highly technical equipment. It has been fairly well established by people using the units in the field that they are not in actuality full clones. What we might agree on is that they need to re-design their case. We could even host a design competition to further this goal, if NW is on board. Might be fun for the younger creative types? Who knows. The point is, however, that charges are getting flung around based on speculation of lawsuits which no one confirms, photographs of the outside, which end users claim is not the case on the inside, and blatant speculation. Im all for debating this issue, but can we keep it to facts we can prove, photographs so people can decide for themselves, and technical specifications?

Also, another thing thats bugging me. While many chinese companies produce crap for products, I think its unfair to label everything that comes out of China as junk and not worth investing in, which labels such as "China, Inc" tend to do. 

And again, just to be clear. If the NW products are indeed clones, then yes, we should stifle them. However, Until evidence emerges, and more than just a post on a website saying that you cant get a profile for them, some concrete evidence (like a court filing), can we at least suppose that the maker had decent intentions? It seems like there is a rush to judge on a lot of counts here, and again, a lot of it is speculation.


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## MNicolai (Oct 5, 2010)

Competition is the putting the Strand SL, Selecon Pacific, and Source Four into the same ring. They each provide the same basic functions and serve to turn electricity into light, then focus it with a ellipsoidal reflector. Yet, each has unique features that each company brought to the table out of their own innovations.

Lightronics building a shoddier version of the Source Four and every company on both sides of the Pacific using the recognizable design of a Source Four PAR to sell their incandescent and LED products is not the sort of competition that inspires genius or brilliant ideas. The fact that people will buy these products only incentivizes the further creation of ripped off designs. You cannot look at the GrandMA knock-off and see it as anything more than China, Inc trying to bypass the development costs GrandMA had to put into creating that product.

Technology isn't free, and no one is entitled to top-notch innovation at low prices. If GrandMA wants to charge a high price tag, we as customers should respect that they invested a lot of time and effort into creating those consoles and that they have the full right to do charge a lot for access to the fruits of their labor. We not support companies who want to pirate their design.

I am not attesting one way or another as to whether or not copyright infringement has been committed in this case, just that we as customers should be careful who we support and choose to buy our products from. The consequences of our purchases lie far beyond the checkout counter or invoice slip.

This topic has been a recurring theme in the last couple weeks here at CB, and it's important to discuss.


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## JChenault (Oct 5, 2010)

shiben said:


> Ok so some things I have noticed here. Undoubtedly, the casing on the NW unit is a rip-off on some level. Looks to be the work of a very lazy industrial designer. So a patent violation on the case.
> ... snip ...



Shiben

While I agree with your post, the pedantic side of me has to speak out here. It is not a patent violation unless Martin filed a patent on the design of the case and, AFAIK it is not possible to patent a design unless it is quite unique. Now Martin has a neat way to let you change gobos with their 'Effects access hatch'. This feature / invention may be patentable - but the shape of the hatch is probably not patentable.

An exact copy of the housing design might be a violation of copyright laws, but probably not of patent law.


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## shiben (Oct 5, 2010)

MNicolai said:


> I am not attesting one way or another as to whether or not copyright infringement has been committed in this case, just that we as customers should be careful who we support and choose to buy our products from. The consequences of our purchases lie far beyond the checkout counter or invoice slip.
> 
> This topic has been a recurring theme in the last couple weeks here at CB, and it's important to discuss.


 
This is totally fair.


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## photoatdv (Oct 5, 2010)

MNicolai said:


> Competition is the putting the Strand SL, Selecon Pacific, and Source Four into the same ring. They each provide the same basic functions and serve to turn electricity into light, then focus it with a ellipsoidal reflector. Yet, each has unique features that each company brought to the table out of their own innovations.
> 
> Lightronics building a shoddier version of the Source Four and every company on both sides of the Pacific using the recognizable design of a Source Four PAR to sell their incandescent and LED products is not the sort of competition that inspires genius or brilliant ideas. The fact that people will buy these products only incentivizes the further creation of ripped off designs. You cannot look at the GrandMA knock-off and see it as anything more than China, Inc trying to bypass the development costs GrandMA had to put into creating that product.
> 
> ...



Here is a photo of the optics on the 250-16 channel unit.


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## Esoteric (Oct 5, 2010)

shiben said:


> Ok so some things I have noticed here. Undoubtedly, the casing on the NW unit is a rip-off on some level. Looks to be the work of a very lazy industrial designer. So a patent violation on the case. The unit is by all accounts of people who have looked inside of it NOT the same unit. Obviously this is not OK, but I have seen a couple of posts in here that equate a case design to being fully copied design, which inflates the problem. Which brings in the burger analogy. Should NW fix this issue? Sure. If it was a serious enough problem, would Martin most likely have sued them? Yes. Clearly, their priorities are more in line with blatant knockoffs, which replicate the entire unit on a very low level of quality. Obviously those are a real issue, and no one should buy that crap.
> 
> But saying that no one should buy lower end units because it hinders innovation is clearly off base. By all accounts of end users, the NW units have less features, less service, and are of lower build quality. Probably justifies paying a ton less for them.
> 
> ...


 
Finally, a level headed response. I agree 100%.

Mike


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## DHSLXOP (Oct 6, 2010)

Hi Everyone -

Here's the link to the interior (and some exterior) pictures of my NW Lighting FX Moving Heads. 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/


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## photoatdv (Oct 6, 2010)

DHSLXOP said:


> Hi Everyone -
> 
> Here's the link to the interior (and some exterior) pictures of my NW Lighting FX Moving Heads.
> 
> Flickr: Techdude013's Photostream


 
Thanks! Which version are these? The 9 channel or the 16 channel?


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## bishopthomas (Oct 6, 2010)

I have opted to purchase used MAC250's rather than new "FAC250's" for a couple of reasons. One is reliability. I have had one single issue with one MAC250. The bolt that operates the focus mechanism got stuck. It was dirty and just needed some cleaning and lubrication to be back in business. The other reason is for cross rentability. No one is calling me asking to rent the Chinese versions, they want the real thing. And it works the other way, when I need to add fixtures there are literally hundreds of MAC250's in my area to pick up for the week.

For slightly more than the NW Lighting FX units you can buy used MAC250's that come with a case.


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## shiben (Oct 6, 2010)

bishopthomas said:


> For slightly more than the NW Lighting FX units you can buy used MAC250's that come with a case.


 
Where? Never seen a MAC 250 under 1000 bucks anywhere, except for maybe parts...


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## Esoteric (Oct 6, 2010)

shiben said:


> Where? Never seen a MAC 250 under 1000 bucks anywhere, except for maybe parts...


 
Yeah, the cheapest I have ever seen a MAC 250 is $2000. About the best reputable used price is $1500.

You can get the original units (not Kryptons or Encores) for $1000.

Mike


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## DHSLXOP (Oct 6, 2010)

photoatdv said:


> Thanks! Which version are these? The 9 channel or the 16 channel?


 
They are actually the 12 channel (because I wanted to get the 575 watt lamp)


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## bishopthomas (Oct 6, 2010)

I was referring to the original MAC250's. I have mine on eBay for $1200 (buy a pair, get a case) but have a guy on his way right now to pick up a pair for $2000. There is a company close to me selling them in a 4-pack for a little over $4000 with a 4-way case. I would rather own these older versions than the off brand for the reasons I explained above. The Entours are nice, but for the price I can buy used pairs of MAC550's and 600's, or even a MAC2000.


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## Esoteric (Oct 7, 2010)

Wow, where are you getting these???

The best legit used price I can get for a MAC2K is $3500 each (and that is with the brother in law discount). I guess if you meant you could get 1 2K for the price of 2 Encores, then maybe.

Mike


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## bishopthomas (Oct 7, 2010)

MAC2000's are on Gear Source for as low as $3150.
Gearsource - Used and New Martin MAC2000 Profile
Gearsource - Used and New Martin MAC2000 Profile


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## Pie4Weebl (Oct 14, 2010)

Esoteric said:


> Yeah, the cheapest I have ever seen a MAC 250 is $2000. About the best reputable used price is $1500.
> 
> You can get the original units (not Kryptons or Encores) for $1000.
> 
> Mike


 
For an original 250 I know of a company with a large quanity of them selling them for $1K a pop, sameish price for 600s.

And that is a buy 2, get a case deal.


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