# good pre-made dmx cable



## Jeffhtg (Jan 14, 2012)

I buy my audio cable all the time from audiopile - and have been very very happy with their products.

Is there a lighting vendor comparable to them for dmx cable?


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## SteveB (Jan 14, 2012)

TMB is very good, I get mine from Production Advantage.

They have prices on the web, Quality Theatrical Supplies and Equipment

BMI is also good.


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## Jeffhtg (Jan 14, 2012)

SteveB said:


> TMB is very good, I get mine from Production Advantage.
> 
> They have prices on the web, Quality Theatrical Supplies and Equipment
> 
> BMI is also good.



$33 for a 25' DMX cable with gold cable / neutrik ends

compared to EWI's audio cable which is 30ft for $21.45 (they dont make a 25')

The audio cable is more expensive to make.. so the prices are not very good for that link.. any other shops that may have better pricing on similar quality products?


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## SteveB (Jan 14, 2012)

Jeffhtg said:


> $33 for a 25' DMX cable with gold cable / neutrik ends
> 
> compared to EWI's audio cable which is 30ft for $21.45 (they dont make a 25')
> 
> The audio cable is more expensive to make.. so the prices are not very good for that link.. any other shops that may have better pricing on similar quality products?



DMX cable is not audio cable, so comparing prices is pointless. Well made DMX cable should be Belden 9729 or equal (twisted pair), which would be more expensive. Plus the manufacture is using a 5 pin XLR, which costs more, plus the labor to solder the extra (un-used currently) pins. 

As well, ProAdv is about as inexpensive and reliable as any of the on-line vendors, though Full Compass is good as well.


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## derekleffew (Jan 14, 2012)

Jeffhtg said:


> $33 for a 25' DMX cable with gold cable / neutrik ends
> 
> compared to EWI's audio cable which is 30ft for $21.45 (they dont make a 25')
> 
> The audio cable is more expensive to make.. so the prices are not very good for that link.. any other shops that may have better pricing on similar quality products?


$15.75/ea from cheaplights.com :

> *137-DMX25MP-L*
> 25 foot MAXPRO, Pro Grade, Heavy Duty DMX Cable. Male 3 pin XLR to female 3 pin XLR. These are top of the line DMX cables! A true 22 gauge cable that is wound 5 times tighter than standard cable and is 120 ohms. You can pay more, but you can't get a better working DMX cable!


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## chausman (Jan 14, 2012)

derekleffew said:


> $15.75/ea from cheaplights.com :


 
I can't tell...is this sarcasm from Derek? Or an actual suggestion?


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## SteveB (Jan 14, 2012)

derekleffew said:


> $15.75/ea from cheaplights.com :



Don't forget the 3 to 5 and 5 to 3 pin adapters, around $20 ea.


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## derekleffew (Jan 14, 2012)

chausman said:


> I can't tell...is this sarcasm from Derek? Or an actual suggestion?


As the OP seems more concerned about price than quality, http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/lighting-electrics/15407-facts-about-dmx.html .

TMB's ProPlex and Tour-Plex is the absolute best, but I've heard (never used) Elation Accu-cable is acceptable for light-duty applications.


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## Jeffhtg (Jan 14, 2012)

derekleffew said:


> As the OP seems more concerned about price than quality, http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/lighting-electrics/15407-facts-about-dmx.html .
> 
> TMB's ProPlex and Tour-Plex is the absolute best, but I've heard (never used) Elation Accu-cable is acceptable for light-duty applications.


 
Sorry I should have specified 3 pin - I know thats not "pro" 

But comparing it to real world pro DMX - well it should be cheaper shouldn't it? Is there an ansi standard for 3 conductor dmx or does it only exist for 5 pin?


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## DuckJordan (Jan 15, 2012)

The standard only applies to the 5 pin although many manufactures use the same pinouts 1-3 for their 3 pin "dmx" lines.

Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk


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## avkid (Jan 15, 2012)

SteveB said:


> Don't forget the 3 to 5 and 5 to 3 pin adapters, around $20 ea.


 
Or $5 if you know where to look.
DMX_5F3M-5M3F


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## SteveB (Jan 15, 2012)

avkid said:


> Or $5 if you know where to look.
> DMX_5F3M-5M3F


 
Poor choice though in many applications due to the added strain the connector places on a chassis mounted connector. Thus the cable versions are a better choice and more widely used, but cost more.


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## mstaylor (Jan 15, 2012)

Jeffhtg said:


> Sorry I should have specified 3 pin - I know thats not "pro"
> 
> But comparing it to real world pro DMX - well it should be cheaper shouldn't it? Is there an ansi standard for 3 conductor dmx or does it only exist for 5 pin?


 No, there is nothing about three pin cables. What you are looking for is cable that complies with the standard. Most people that use three pin XLR still use 5 wire cable. There is a twist and resistance requirement that 5 wire meets easily. 
The pin has become common be cause the manufacturers started using them to control costs. There is many threads about the standards, how they have become bastardized, and how it is actually most costly to the end user.


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## Jeffhtg (Jan 15, 2012)

mstaylor said:


> No, there is nothing about three pin cables. What you are looking for is cable that complies with the standard. Most people that use three pin XLR still use 5 wire cable. There is a twist and resistance requirement that 5 wire meets easily.
> The pin has become common be cause the manufacturers started using them to control costs. There is many threads about the standards, how they have become bastardized, and how it is actually most costly to the end user.


 
But it is a 2 pair twist correct? In 5 Pin DMX is the Common paired with something else or is it a shield? Wouldn't the appropriate Belden twist cable for the +/- using EIA-485 standard be a "correct" non standard way of using the bastardized 3 pin configuration? In both audio and DMX the common does not have to be a twisted pair correct? Does this not make sense? And then does anyone make this


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## JD (Jan 15, 2012)

Jeffhtg said:


> But it is a 2 pair twist correct? In 5 Pin DMX is the Common paired with something else or is it a shield? Wouldn't the appropriate Belden twist cable for the +/- using EIA-485 standard be a "correct" non standard way of using the bastardized 3 pin configuration? In both audio and DMX the common does not have to be a twisted pair correct? Does this not make sense? And then does anyone make this



To put it simply, DMX512 is a two pair cable with 5 pin connectors, anything else is not the DXM standard.

That being said, the second pair never got assigned. There are some that use it for non-standard purposes, but true DMX152 makes no use of it. 

So, if your equipment will be in a stand alone environment, will using 3 pin connectors and single pair cable cause you any problems? No. As long as the cable is the correct impedance (Data 100 to 120 ohms) as compared to mic cable, you will not have any problems. 

Pros:
Much cheaper

Cons: 
Mixing equipment will require adapters.
Easy to mix up lighting and sound cables by mistake.
Thinner cable (single pair) may not be as durable. 

Caution: If you are using two pair cable with 3 pin connectors DO NOT parallel anything! (If you do, you are creating a tuned RF tank circuit that may bite you in the you-know-where some day!) Just cut off the second pair. (Connecting both drain wires to pin one is ok.) 

The big factors in using single pair cable is to use the right impedance cable and one that is durable enough. The circuit only cares about the impedance. For example, in metal conduit runs, Cat5 cable works great.


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## JohnD (Jan 15, 2012)

From lurking at several other (mostly audio) forums some info.
For budget when 3 pin will do, Accu-cable/ADJ/Elation is not too bad. Cable is very flexible and the connectors are satin black. The quality of the connectors is in my opinion not that great, Neutriks they're not. They even include a velcro strap. Even Amazon sells them.
Some people also like the Platinums from this company:
NLFX PSDMX3 :: Platinum Series :: NLFX Professional - Audio, Lighting, Video, Intercom
Prices aren't too bad and they have real Neutriks. I did get a laugh about their description:
" Our premium DMX cable features superior signal transmission while 
*meeting the USITT specifications for cable properties*. Made in USA 
with Neutrik connectors. Lifetime guarantee!"


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## derekleffew (Jan 15, 2012)

mstaylor said:


> ...Most people that use three pin XLR still use 5 wire cable. ...


I doubt this, since there's no benefit whatsoever.


JD said:


> ...Caution: If you are using two pair cable with 3 pin connectors DO NOT parallel anything! ... Just cut off the second pair. (Connecting both drain wires to pin one is ok.) ...


BOTH drain wires? Individually shielded pairs?


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## MNicolai (Jan 15, 2012)

derekleffew said:


> I doubt this, since there's no benefit whatsoever.



Depending on how you use your cables, there can be a _slight_ benefit. Your DMX snake from FOH to stage can have half as many couple-hundred foot DMX cables if you use splitters at the front and back end of each run to put two universes of DMX into a single cable and divide them into separate cables at the end of the run.

I've only seen this done a couple times.


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## derekleffew (Jan 15, 2012)

MNicolai said:


> Depending on how you use your cables, there can be a _slight_ benefit. Your DMX snake from FOH to stage can have half as many couple-hundred foot DMX cables if you use splitters at the front and back end of each run to put two universes of DMX into a single cable and divide them into separate cables at the end of the run.


How is this accomplished using (only) XLR3s? Which is what the discussion was about--using 5-conductor cable with 3-pin XLRs. I thought the two universe over one cable issue was settled here. I suppose though, if one allows the breaking of one rule (XLR3), one can't get too consternipated about another (two universes).


MNicolai said:


> I've only seen this done a couple times.


And I've *never* seen it done, except for break-out adapters on the 5-pin output(s) of some Avolites consoles.


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## JD (Jan 15, 2012)

derekleffew said:


> BOTH drain wires? Individually shielded pairs?



If you cut your cable apart, it better have TWO SEPARATE PAIRS or it really isn't DMX512. 

I know there is a ton of what is called "excellent" DMX cable out there that is actually four conductors twisted together with one overall shield. In the computer world, we would call that "dumpster fill." Lucky for the manufacturer, DMX is a hearty signal that is unidirectional, and in most cases only two of the conductors are used. The cable works fine. But....... IT'S NOT DMX! (Despite what is printed on the rubber!)

Proper Construction: http://www.northernsound.net/Sales/...n/westpenn/westpennbulkcable.html#DMX512CABLE


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## Edrick (Jan 15, 2012)

What's the best belden to use for three pin dmx


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## derekleffew (Jan 15, 2012)

JD said:


> If you cut your cable apart, it better have TWO SEPARATE PAIRS or it really isn't DMX512. The Belden cable has two individually shielded pairs with separate drain wires.
> ... The cable works fine. But....... IT'S NOT DMX! (Despite what is printed on the rubber!)


Look up the specs for Belden 9842, accepted by many/most as the defacto industry standard. 
Or Belden 9729 (or equivalent, as specified by ETC). Also, see attached:View attachment Belden_DMX-512.pdf



Edrick said:


> What's the best belden to use for three pin dmx


Depends on the intended use. In conduit or out? Plenum or non-plenum? Next to hot lights? As an FOH snake?


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## STEVETERRY (Jan 15, 2012)

JD said:


> If you cut your cable apart, it better have TWO SEPARATE PAIRS or it really isn't DMX512.
> 
> I know there is a ton of what is called "excellent" DMX cable out there that is actually four conductors twisted together with one overall shield. In the computer world, we would call that "dumpster fill." Lucky for the manufacturer, DMX is a hearty signal that is unidirectional, and in most cases only two of the conductors are used. The cable works fine. But....... IT'S NOT DMX! (Despite what is printed on the rubber!)
> 
> Proper Construction: West Penn Wire Permanent Installation Bulk Cable


 
The E1.11 standard does not require a separate shield for each pair. There would be no advantage to a separate shield.

ST


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## JD (Jan 15, 2012)

derekleffew said:


> Look up the specs for Belden 9842, accepted by many/most as the defacto industry standard. Or Belden 9729 (or equivalent, as specified by ETC). Also, see attached:View attachment 6095



I know what you're saying, but it doesn't make it right! Cable manufacturers, even Belden, have been getting away with murder! No surprise. Two data lines = Two individual twisted pairs, not four conductors twisted together!


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## JD (Jan 15, 2012)

STEVETERRY said:


> The E1.11 standard does not require a separate shield for each pair. There would be no advantage to a separate shield.
> ST



We are not talking about the shield in this case! Steve, there is a LOT of DMX cable out there that have the four conductors twisted *together,* NOT as two separate pairs.


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## STEVETERRY (Jan 15, 2012)

JD said:


> I know what you're saying, but it doesn't make it right! Cable manufacturers, even Belden, have been getting away with murder! No surprise. Two data lines = Two individual twisted pairs, not four conductors twisted together!


 
Correct. But two twisted pairs under one shield is fine, and not the same as four wires "twisted together" under one shield. There is no need for individual shields.

ST


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## JD (Jan 15, 2012)

STEVETERRY said:


> Correct. But two twisted pairs under one shield is fine, and not the same as four wires "twisted together" under one shield. There is no need for individual shields.
> 
> ST


 
Yes, agreed, although I would not use it. My own opinion. But, my original statement was:

"I know there is a ton of what is called "excellent" DMX cable out there that is actually four conductors twisted together with one overall shield."

There are several major vendor that are selling DMX that is indeed four wires twisted together as one pair.


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## STEVETERRY (Jan 15, 2012)

JD said:


> Yes, agreed, although I would not use it. My own opinion. But, my original statement was:
> 
> "I know there is a ton of what is called "excellent" DMX cable out there that is actually four conductors twisted together with one overall shield."
> 
> There are several major vendor that are selling DMX that is indeed four wires twisted together as one pair.


 
JD--

I did not know that. It would be helpful if we could identify those vendors and part numbers to warn consumers ways from such a design of cable--which is clearly bogus for DMX-512 applications and will not work reliably.

EIA-485 has a twisted pair requirement. Not four wires twisted together, unless they are two twisted pairs, twisted together, which would be fine for DMX512.

ST


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## JD (Jan 15, 2012)

I recall this discussion from about 6 months back on this site, but I do not remember the thread title. Derek was part of the discussion so he may recall it. In buying bulk cable it is always good to get a sample first.

EDIT:
Wow, maybe more like two years ago! See post # 19:
http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/lighting-electrics/18596-dmx-help-wire-colors.html#post170713

epimetheus said:


> I can confirm that the Gepco DLC224 does in fact not have 2 individual pairs. The 4 insulated conductors have a common twist. Needless to say, I was not thrilled to discover this, but luckily I only bought 80ft. We bought some Horizon/Rapco DMX cable at my church that does have 2 individual twisted pairs.




Some quick questionable Google finds:

http://www.chinesedepartmentstore.com.cn/osc/product_info.php/products_id/6595

http://www.cmpstore.com/DMX-4C-22GAShield-BlackCable-by-the-foot-CA-DMX4C.htm


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## Edrick (Jan 15, 2012)

derekleffew said:


> Depends on the intended use. In conduit or out? Plenum or non-plenum? Next to hot lights? As an FOH snake?


 

Live events, daisy chaining fixtures. For use along the edge of a room, temp setup.


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## derekleffew (Jan 15, 2012)

Yes, JD, but I am in agreement with post #20 of the same thread:

SHARYNF said:


> I am not sure why for DMX that would be an issue, since you are only using one pair and the shield. The extra two wires are really not used This probably means that there is no problem with selecting any 2 of the 4 wires for use.


Unless/until there's widespread adoption and agreement as to the use of the second pair (which there *never* will be, as the standard is nearing the end of its lifecycle), I'm not going to worry about it.
Furthermore, 

SHARYNF said:


> So once again getting assistance from Milton [Davis, of Doug Fleenor Design] here is the response:
> 
> > ...Until you get into running significant distances (over 500 feet), the twisted pairs or 4 wires twisted probably won't matter much.
> >
> ...


-----
Sorry for the confusion in posts 17-29 above. We're discussing at least three types of cable constructions:


4 conductor + shield
2 pair, individually twisted, + 1 overall shield
2 individually, twisted, shielded pairs (2 shields)
 IMHO, for current usage, any of the above will be just fine wired to XLR5s for DMX512 distribution, but #2 is the most preferable. 

In most cases. IF I were building my own fixture jumpers, I'd use an appropriate (100-120Ω, 20-22g, heavy Black jacket, braided shield, but still flexible/coilable, ...) *single* pair + shield cable.

And even though this has little/nothing relevant, I did update the wiki entry star quad.


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## JD (Jan 15, 2012)

Just came across this great video from Doug Fleenor on 1 pair vs 2 pair, 5 pin vs 3 pin, and when cat5 is ok to use. He also covers length limits and some other things. 

He makes the case for two pair use in large production houses and then ... Surprise! Indicates his own opinion is that it is a waste of money. Pretty funny video from Dr. DMX!


Informational Video: DMX512 Cable - Part Two - YouTube



derekleffew said:


> Yes, JD, but I am in agreement with post #20 of the same thread:
> 
> Unless/until there's widespread adoption and agreement as to the use of the second pair (which there *never* will be, as the standard is nearing the end of its lifecycle), I'm not going to worry about it.



Well, as I said earlier: "DMX is a hearty signal that is unidirectional, and in most cases only two of the conductors are used. The cable works fine."


_but.... Then there are some of us that like to pop a second universe on the second pair, or even a com line.... 
Oh! what a tangled web we weave!_


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## derekleffew (Jan 15, 2012)

Edrick said:


> What's the best belden to use for three pin dmx




Edrick said:


> Live events, daisy chaining fixtures. For use along the edge of a room, temp setup.


Belden 9841, but I don't like that it's only 24 ga. (not for capacity, but for durability) for portable use. I'd look for a cable for EIA RS-485 application with all of the criteria above: "(100-120Ω, 20-22g, heavy Black jacket, braided shield, but still flexible/coilable, ...) *single* pair + shield cable."
Or, just bite the bullet and buy TMB ProPlex PC244T.
"The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of a low price is forgotten." --Benjamin Franklin


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## Jeffhtg (Jan 16, 2012)

derekleffew said:


> Belden 9841, but I don't like that it's only 24 ga. (not for capacity, but for durability) for portable use. I'd look for a cable for EIA RS-485 application with all of the criteria above: "(100-120Ω, 20-22g, heavy Black jacket, braided shield, but still flexible/coilable, ...) *single* pair + shield cable."
> Or, just bite the bullet and buy TMB ProPlex PC244T.
> "The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of a low price is forgotten." --Benjamin Franklin


 

So I really don't care about the opinions here.. 4 pair twisted vs 2 pair pairs twisted... all i'm really looking for is good quality inexpensive 3 pin dmx cable. back to topic - does anyone have any leads?


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## derekleffew (Jan 16, 2012)

derekleffew said:


> ...TMB's ProPlex and Tour-Plex is the absolute best, but I've heard (never used) Elation Accu-cable is acceptable for light-duty applications.


https://www.google.com/search?q=ela....,cf.osb&fp=bc929a60d4f7d321&biw=1228&bih=671


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## mstaylor (Jan 16, 2012)

Any that I build, I use five pin connectors. If I do make some for three pin equipment I use two pair cable. I have never tried to find single pair cable that is 120 ohm.


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## len (Jan 16, 2012)

Best I've found is custom made by Bill at Entertainment Systems. About the same price as pre-made stuff, but it comes in whatever length you need. I think he offers a lifetime replacement guarantee on it, but check with him. 

Every one he made for me is still perfect. 

I've also bot American DJ stuff, and for the price it's fine. Cheap enough to be disposable.


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## SteveB (Jan 16, 2012)

Jeffhtg said:


> So I really don't care about the opinions here.. 4 pair twisted vs 2 pair pairs twisted... all i'm really looking for is good quality inexpensive 3 pin dmx cable. back to topic - does anyone have any leads?



Well Jeff, all I could think of is there's really no such thing as "3 pin DMX cable" but if you actually paid attention to some of the posts by some of top people in the industry, you'd know that.

Sorry to have wasted your time and as BTW, welcome to Control Booth.


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## 65535 (Jan 16, 2012)

Jeffhtg said:


> So I really don't care about the opinions here.. 4 pair twisted vs 2 pair pairs twisted... all i'm really looking for is good quality inexpensive 3 pin dmx cable. back to topic - does anyone have any leads?


 

It's simple then. No cable for you.

As many others have said there is no such thing as "good quality inexpensive 3 pin DMX."

You have inexpensive DMX, good quality DMX, and XLR3 terminated data cable which does not fit under any standards and is NOT DMX cable.

Now if you need to send DMX over a cable with XLR3 termination.

NSI / Leviton DMX 3-Pin Cable - 25' DMX3P402025 B&H Photo Video

YMMV. The product description states not suitable for digital control.

Consider buying proper DMX cable and adapting each side. I wouldn't want any XLR3 terminated DMX around my space.


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## sblair (Jan 16, 2012)

I get the very rare opportunity to quasi-correct Steve Terry on something 

E1.11 actually says nothing about cabling. All cabling requirements were moved to seperate documents. Those are E1.27-1 for Portable Cables and E1.27-2 for Permanently Installed Cables. Available for purchase from: ESTA Foundation - Publications - About Publications, Browse & Purchase

What E1.11 does specify are connector types that are allowed. The use of the 3-pin XLR is specifically DISALLOWED. End of discussion.

Here is what E1.27-1 says on the cable construction:


> Portable DMX512 cables shall use twisted pair conductors. Conductors shall be of stranded construction. The raw cable used for a DMX512 cable assembly shall be declared by its manufacturer as suitable for use with EIA-422/EIA-485/EIA-485-A systems. Shielding shall be on individual pairs or overall shielding of pairs, or both. The portable cable itself shall be flexible and rugged enough for the repeated coiling and uncoiling to which it will be subjected.


ANSI E1.27-1 - 2006 (R2011) also states that it is allowed to build portable cables that contain only the primary data pair provided they are marked with "Single pair" or "1-pair" and also marked with a violet band at least 1/2" wide within 2 inches of this marking. Of course, you still can NOT use the 3-pin XLR. You MUST use the 5-pin XLR (for what I hope are obvious reasons!)

So, that's the end of what the standards say. In Europe it is very common to build single pair portable cables which is why this is included in the standard. In the US most portable cables are wired for all 5 pins. Many(most?) permanent installs do not have all 5 pins wired. Back in my day at ETC, standard procedure was NOT to connect pins 4/5 in the wall plates in installs. I do not know what current practice on their installs is.

In reality, aside from a few legacy proprietary uses pins 4/5 are not being used for anything. They are generally a landmine of incompatabilities for the few that tried using them.

In regards to shielding, I believe portable cables should all be shielded, but according to Steve Lampen from Belden at the speeds we are running for DMX512, the shielding provides relatively little noise immunity compared to the pair twisting, which is what provides the most immunity. This is another reason it is important to use proper data cables and not audio cables. Audio cables may be well shielded, but they don't have the proper twisting to provide good noise immunity for DMX512 (not to mention the high capacitance issue!).


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## derekleffew (Jan 17, 2012)

65535 said:


> ...NSI / Leviton DMX 3-Pin Cable - 25' DMX3P402025 B&H Photo Video
> YMMV. The product description states not suitable for digital control.


What it says is:

> A 3-pin cable is used for non-digital applications. A 5-pin (DMX512) cable is used for digital control boards.


which is _almost_ as erroneous as the comments on the "Facts about DMX" site.


65535 said:


> ...Consider buying proper DMX cable and adapting each side. I wouldn't want any XLR3 terminated DMX around my space.


So to control a bunch of Studio Spots/Colors/I-Beams/Cybers/MAC500/600/most LED PARs, your data chain would look like:
["<---" indicates a 5-pin XLR cable, "<" indicates male end]

Console:<----:Adapter, 5-3:*Light*:Adapter, 3-5:<--:5-3:*Light*:3-5:<--:5-3:*Light*:3-5:<--: ... :terminator

Sure seems like a lot of unnecessary connections and gear to keep track of to me.


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## sblair (Jan 17, 2012)

derekleffew said:


> What it says is:
> 
> So to control a bunch of Studio Spots/Colors/I-Beams/Cybers/MAC500/600/most LED PARs, your data chain would look like:
> ["<---" indicates a 5-pin XLR cable, "<" indicates male end]
> ...


 
It's much less annoying than having a mixed inventory of different cable types! And no matter which cable you grab, when you look at the end you WILL find it has the wrong number of pins. In fact, that is such a true statement, I think I'll call it Terry Law. In honor of the man that finally flogged HES enough until they(we) put 5-pin on the products!


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## derekleffew (Jan 17, 2012)

sblair said:


> ...And no matter which cable you grab, when you look at the end you WILL find it has the wrong number of pins. ...


I know how many pins it has before I grab it. Depends on what color the XLRs of the XLR/RAM/DMX cable are painted. 

derekleffew said:


> ...
> "XLR" to refer to any 3-pin data cable
> "RAM" to refer to any 4-pin data + power cable, including LEDs
> "DMX" to refer to any 5-pin DMX cable.


 


sblair said:


> ...In fact, that is such a true statement, I think I'll call it Terry Law. In honor of the man that finally flogged HES enough until they(we) put 5-pin on the products!


Yeah, yeah, we've all heard the tirade:

STEVETERRY said:


> Not much has changed on this issue since 1998, when I wrote this article, with some grinding of teeth!
> Whose network is it, anyway? Why the end user is the loser in the DMX512 connector controversy
> ST


But, IMHO, *he's* the cause of the confusion, for not being specific enough back in 1986. I'm not sure it proper to name a law after the person responsible for the problem in the first place; something like the Dahmer Law against serial murder and cannibalism, or something.

I also like how, in the video, Dr. DMX blames the whole 5/3 issue on the poor innocent, defenseless Intellabeam. I don't think I'd ever heard than explanation/hypothesis before, but it's as believable as any. If we could go back in time and alter the course of history, I'd love to hear the outcry had the connector changed when the I-Beam went from Lightwave Research protocol to DMX!


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## len (Jan 17, 2012)

The 3pin/5pin problem will likely go away ONLY IF everyone starts using Cat5 or wireless or whatever. And whatever replaces 3 or 5 pin will still have multiple replacements and still not be 100% standardized. It's why I always try to refer to cable carrying dmx (whether 3 pin or 5) as DATA cable. Not a perfect solution, but whatever. 

And really, when someone asks directions to the store, you don't give them the history of the automobile they're driving in, do you? All the OP wanted was a source for good quality cable.


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## sblair (Jan 17, 2012)

derekleffew said:


> But, IMHO, *he's* the cause of the confusion, for not being specific enough back in 1986. I'm not sure it proper to name a law after the person responsible for the problem in the first place; something like the Dahmer Law against serial murder and cannibalism, or something.


 
Not sure how you say it is Steve's fault. The 5-pin XLR was clearly specified as far back as the 1986 original version of DMX. All the moving light companies started with their own protocols using 3-pin and it wasn't until later ~'92 that they started implementing DMX as a secondary protocol. It was then a matter of overcoming the sheer intertia of getting everyone to finally change. For HES, that was around '99 that it finally happened.


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## JD (Jan 17, 2012)

The debate, as well as the debate as to if there even is a debate will go on for the life of DMX !!

*5 pin guy:*
It's the standard, that's all there is to it! I don't want my cables to be confused with sound cables, and I want to be able to rent in equipment and not worry about converter connectors. 

*3 pin guy:*
Oh, but the connectors are so much cheaper and most of the stuff I have is 3 pin anyway! Don't ever expect to be renting in extra stuff anyway.


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## SteveB (Jan 17, 2012)

sblair said:


> Not sure how you say it is Steve's fault. The 5-pin XLR was clearly specified as far back as the 1986 original version of DMX. All the moving light companies started with their own protocols using 3-pin and it wasn't until later ~'92 that they started implementing DMX as a secondary protocol. It was then a matter of overcoming the sheer intertia of getting everyone to finally change. For HES, that was around '99 that it finally happened.



Ummm Scott, the data sheet for the HES Studio Spot CMY/Zm shows it as being shipped with 3 pin only. Which is exactly as I received them as new in '06 and seemingly as they still ship today. I know we've had this discussion over on LN so no more beating a dead horse.


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## sblair (Jan 17, 2012)

SteveB said:


> Ummm Scott, the data sheet for the HES Studio Spot CMY/Zm shows it as being shipped with 3 pin only. Which is exactly as I received them as new in '06 and seemingly as they still ship today. I know we've had this discussion over on LN so no more beating a dead horse.


 
Steve, it's very simple. All NEW products designed after '99 were designed with 5-pin XLR. Existing products continued with the connectors they were designed with. It can be argued right or wrong all day long. But the reasoning for it was so that everyone at least KNEW what to expect when renting gear. It would have been even messier for rentals if you never knew what connectors to expect on the gear you rented at all.


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## derekleffew (Jan 17, 2012)

SteveB fails to mention that he took the somewhat controversial (but justifiable, IMHO) measure into his own hands by changing the connectors on his in-house, never-to-leave-the-building, fixtures over to 5-pin XLR.

[-]Funny[/-] Possibly amusing, anecdote: In 2000, while being shown the not-yet-released x.Spot at the HES factory, someone (a co-worker of mine no less) responded to Brad's "and it has 5-pin XLRs" with "Is that because of the amount of information it needs?" :facepalm:

-----

sblair said:


> Not sure how you say it is Steve's fault. The 5-pin XLR was clearly specified as far back as the 1986 original version of DMX. ...


What I meant was, obviously (in hindsight) the phraseology

> "Where connectors are used, they shall be of the XLR-5 type."


 was not worded strongly enough. Perhaps the mattress tag "Under penalty of LAW" and/or "Violators will be shot upon sight" should have been added.


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## sblair (Jan 17, 2012)

derekleffew said:


> What I meant was, obviously (in hindsight) the phraseology was not worded strongly enough. Perhaps the mattress tag "Under penalty of LAW" and/or "Violators will be shot upon sight" should have been added.


 
It had the correct use of "shall" in the original language and in the world of Standards that is as strong as it gets in being an absolute requirement.


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## STEVETERRY (Jan 17, 2012)

sblair said:


> I get the very rare opportunity to quasi-correct Steve Terry on something
> 
> E1.11 actually says nothing about cabling. All cabling requirements were moved to seperate documents. Those are E1.27-1 for Portable Cables and E1.27-2 for Permanently Installed Cables. Available for purchase from: ESTA Foundation - Publications - About Publications, Browse & Purchase
> 
> ...


 
Right you are, Scott.

ST


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## nquinn2 (Jan 17, 2012)

Lex Products makes very durable data cables:

Data Cables | Lex Products

Most of the rental houses in my area use Lex cables. Their molded multi-cables are pretty sweet too.

Nick


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## MNicolai (Jan 17, 2012)

nquinn2 said:


> Lex Products makes very durable data cables:
> 
> Data Cables | Lex Products
> 
> ...



Agreed -- the Lex cables of any flavor they produce are always high-quality in my experience, but be prepared to pay for that level of quality.


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## gafftapegreenia (Jan 17, 2012)

MNicolai said:


> Agreed -- the Lex cables of any flavor they produce are always high-quality in my experience, but be prepared to pay for that level of quality.


 
The LEX DMX cable I used in college seemed to melt very easily. Either we brought the wrong product (very possible) or their jacket just isn't as heat resistant as I would expect DMX cable to be.


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## SteveB (Jan 17, 2012)

gafftapegreenia said:


> The LEX DMX cable I used in college seemed to melt very easily. Either we brought the wrong product (very possible) or their jacket just isn't as heat resistant as I would expect DMX cable to be.



Doesn't like 208v, or whatever your "commercial" building provides. (JK)

Me thinking as well that Jeff, remember Jeff, from the OP ?, has LOoooong ago checked out.

I LEARNED some stuff though !. Like HES will be shipping Studio Spots with 3 pin connectors for a LONG time !.


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## 65535 (Jan 18, 2012)

How hot exactly are you getting your cables, HDPE used in the jacket is rated upto 180F which is a lot hotter than I'd expect any of my cables to get.

Cables shouldn't be in contact with hot equipment.

EDIT: It is a urethane jacket NOT HDPE which is used in the conductor insulation.


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## gafftapegreenia (Jan 18, 2012)

65535 said:


> How hot exactly are you getting your cables, HDPE used in the jacket is rated upto 180F which is a lot hotter than I'd expect any of my cables to get.
> 
> Cables shouldn't be in contact with hot equipment.



Yes, I know cables shouldn't touch hot equipment. I do my best to prevent that but my eyes can't be everywhere all the time, and especially when stagecraft kids are involved, sometimes cable gets looped and hung on the back of lights because someone is to $%^&*#$ lazy to go get some tie line. I was usually able to catch these mistakes before damage happened. I only wonder how they're getting on without me. Whatev. (and yes I was very vocal with my concerns during my time there incase anyone wants to play that card on me). 

However, in another situation, the cable experienced melting when within a few inches of the back of a Source 4. Leaving some sort of focus loop is necessary in order to DMX a Seachanger. The DMX cable was also run and properly dressed right along side a 12/3 SOOW cable that showed no damage.


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## JD (Jan 18, 2012)

<slightly off topic>
This may all become obsolete info in a few years. I suspect, just like netbooks and Ipads, we will start to see instrument-level wireless DMX start to pop up. The cost to the manufacturer for a wireless adapter blown onto the motherboard of a laptop computer is less than $1. Of course, design cost is written off over millions of units made which is something that doesn't happen in the lighting world. Still, the industry could piggyback using materials already available in much the same way as boards piggybacked on preexisting computer technology. 

Security would necessitate the DMX ride on a keyed packet system, much like DMX over Ethernet currently does, but imagine not having to run any DMX cables to any fixtures! 

The advantages go beyond the lack of cables. Although due to FCC limits, there would be distance limits and the hassle of repeaters, you also would eliminate the 32 fixture limit. Also, considering that current wireless speeds are measured in Ghz, there would be the ability to handle hundreds of universes on such a system.

</slightly off topic>


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## Jeffhtg (Jan 18, 2012)

MNicolai said:


> Agreed -- the Lex cables of any flavor they produce are always high-quality in my experience, but be prepared to pay for that level of quality.


 
Very familiar with them.. I think you are right that they may be a bit pricey. The reality is that all the low level stuff you buy these days has 3 pin. So there is a need to have good / cheap 3 pin. 

After I started buying audio cable from audiopile I have been so happy with the price and performance it just doesn't make sense to make cable. I was really hoping to find the same type of provider for lighting cable :/


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## Gern (Jan 18, 2012)

Jeffhtg said:


> Very familiar with them.. I think you are right that they may be a bit pricey. The reality is that all the low level stuff you buy these days has 3 pin. So there is a need to have good / cheap 3 pin.
> 
> After I started buying audio cable from audiopile I have been so happy with the price and performance it just doesn't make sense to make cable. I was really hoping to find the same type of provider for lighting cable :/



Please disregard if this is not the case, I'm NOT saying you would:
Just remember that if a cable is out of spec. for the DMX512A standard, it may work wonderfully without any noticeable disturbance of the signal... Until one day... when it just won't work 'properly' anymore. With all the other usual suspects potential for causing a corrupted data signal- bad fixtures, connectors, 'proper' cable going bad, lack of termination, to name a few- I wouldn't want to find out that the reason for the failure was something preventable. Like using the wrong cable! 
Granted everyone can have a different perspective and different levels of acceptability for failure, but in my gigs, it would be unacceptable to use mic cable or any other cable not matching up to the spec standards. 
I hope that helps.


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## Jeffhtg (Jan 18, 2012)

Gern said:


> Please disregard if this is not the case, I'm NOT saying you would:
> Just remember that if a cable is out of spec. for the DMX512A standard, it may work wonderfully without any noticeable disturbance of the signal... Until one day... when it just won't work 'properly' anymore. With all the other usual suspects potential for causing a corrupted data signal- bad fixtures, connectors, 'proper' cable going bad, lack of termination, to name a few- I wouldn't want to find out that the reason for the failure was something preventable. Like using the wrong cable!
> Granted everyone can have a different perspective and different levels of acceptability for failure, but in my gigs, it would be unacceptable to use mic cable or any other cable not matching up to the spec standards.
> I hope that helps.


 

The second twisted pair does absolutely nothing for data transmission. If the standard is okay to use 5 wire dual twisted pair and omit a pair.. that is the same as using 3 wire cable with a twisted pair of the same spec wire. Or at least that is my believe from the several talks about ETC's standards


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## MNicolai (Jan 18, 2012)

Jeffhtg said:


> The second twisted pair does absolutely nothing for data transmission. If the standard is okay to use 5 wire dual twisted pair and omit a pair.. that is the same as using 3 wire cable with a twisted pair of the same spec wire. Or at least that is my believe from the several talks about ETC's standards



What Gern is talking about is not the number of pins, but the quality of the wiring. The average analog microphone cable has an impedance of roughly 40-50 Ohms and has a capacitance of 30-120 pF/ft.

Per spec, DMX cable is ideally 120 Ohm characteristic impedance data-grade cable with a capacitance of 12.8pF/ft. The number of pins is irrelevant.

There are more technical details to a cable than that the wires are made out of copper and the number of wires a given cable has. The average microphone cable is non-ideal for DMX because it it is of the wrong characteristic impedance and capacitance.

That said -- DMX tends to be very forgiving. As noted in Doug Fleenor's video, you can run DMX over three strands of barbed wire (it's actually been done), and it'll work really well until it doesn't work at all. When it stops working, first you'll blame your lighting console, then you'll blame your fixtures, and then you'll spend a few hours swapping around your cables to find "the bad one", but if they're all audio-quality cable, they'll all be bad and corruptive to your DMX signal quality, and cause your fixtures to be subject to spontaneous and erratic behavior.

Audio-quality cable can work fine for DMX for an extended amount of time, and then the slighest variable changes and no matter how you order your cables in the daisy chain, your signal gets corrupted. Could be a walkie-talkie that sets it off, or could be one too many fixtures are on the chain. Whatever the problem, you'll lose more than a couple hours trying to chase it down.

Thus we do things like limit the number of fixtures in a chain, use data-quality cable, and use 120 Ohm terminators, and never split a signal via a wye-splitter. You can probably get away with all of those kinds of sins, but you're living on the edge of never knowing when your signal may suddenly cause all of your devices to take on a mind of their own mid-performance.

Belden has a good document for selecting the appropriate cables for DMX, and here are some technical data sheets so you can compare the kinds of details that are at play from one type of cabling to another:
DMX Single-Pair
DMX Dual-Pair
One Kind of Microphone Cable
Another Kind of Microphone Cable


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