# The Devil's Wire



## Anvilx (Dec 6, 2009)

I was cabling some pars yesterday, Ran my jumpers and headed back to the booth to test it out. I push up the fader -Nothing. Weird. Back on the ladder I inspect my connections. On one of my connectors the outer jacket had come off a little. looks like it was just stripped a little too far initially. But the real problem was that the exposed internal insulation had peeled off in places and the wires were touching each other. Finally I cut the ends off of the cable to prevent use.

But that's not the only thing that is awry with our cables. We have NW jumpers-solid core. They are stiff and don't coil nicely. I have even taken to calling it Hell Wire- their is only one place wire this evil could only be made in. They are the wrong product, and I have maybe 300 ft of the stuff and that's after throwing a bunch away. But who ever decided (who ever fulfilled the bid) to use NM used Rosco stage pin plugs, aren't those the most expensive stage pin plugs? 

Thankfully not all of our wire is romex, but not a single cable with either a Bates, ProPin, or Rosco connectors use a single strain relief. How stupid can you be! 1/2 the reason you use said connectors is the strain relief! 
_"Hmm I wonder what these funny lookin' plastic squares are, I better just throw them away."_

I really don't have time rewire all of my cables and It really isn't my job, I'm just a student. Hopefully they will be able to raise the money to build a new theater before I decommission every cable in the place.

But seriously have you ever seen NM jumpers?


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## avkid (Dec 6, 2009)

Call an inspector, electrician or safety officer now!!!!


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## fredthe (Dec 6, 2009)

Anvilx said:


> But seriously have you ever seen NM jumpers?


No, for the simple reason that it's not allowed. Throw out the rest of it NOW!

-Fred


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## Les (Dec 7, 2009)

Wait! Don't throw it out. Recycle it! They pay big money for that stuff. You may have to cut it into small pieces first though, otherwise the recycling company might be suspicious that you stole it.


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## avkid (Dec 7, 2009)

Les said:


> Wait! Don't throw it out. Recycle it! They pay big money for that stuff.


They used to.
It's nowhere near as valuable as it was a few years ago.


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## Lotos (Dec 7, 2009)

Les said:


> Wait! Don't throw it out. Recycle it! They pay big money for that stuff. You may have to cut it into small pieces first though, otherwise the recycling company might be suspicious that you stole it.


 
On that note... Point out to your supervisor that it is dangerous and illegal... Then politely suggest to the administration that THEY recycle it... Point out that Scrap Copper is worth $$$...

Do this on the understanding that the money they RECIEVE for the scrap goes into THIS years coffers. While in NEXT years budget, they set aside funds to purchase new cable.

It's amazing how numbers on spreadsheets can affect people safe working environments.


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## Footer (Dec 7, 2009)

Lotos said:


> On that note... Point out to your supervisor that it is dangerous and illegal... Then politely suggest to the administration that THEY recycle it... Point out that Scrap Copper is worth $$$...
> 
> Do this on the understanding that the money they RECIEVE for the scrap goes into THIS years coffers. While in NEXT years budget, they set aside funds to purchase new cable.
> 
> It's amazing how numbers on spreadsheets can affect people safe working environments.



There is also the thing where the building could burn down if that cable gets near any fixture.


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## Anvilx (Dec 7, 2009)

For the most part I threw out all of the shorter cables that would get used the most, in the 10' - 50' range, leaving me with a couple hundred footers and a couple of 3' ones.

Ironicly on my last show I sent the assistant LD to Home depot and asked her to see if she could pick up some SOOW 12/3. I made a big point that I wanted SOOW and not SJOOW. She returned a bit later with you guessed it a nice new role of yellow Romex.


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## gafftapegreenia (Dec 7, 2009)

Well at least its not SPT


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## Smcl001 (Dec 7, 2009)

300' and some of copper would really only get you about $50 or so dollars at a scarp yard. Plus some scrap yards ask you to strip your copper wires before you can get any $ for it. 


Also, when scrapping, make sure you say "My name is ----- and I am from ---- school." Cops are cracking down on ppl stealing raw materials so scrap yards are not buying from new customers if they seem "shady." (I think a teenager with a 100+' of copper wire is shady, no offense). I just had $900 worth of copper pyro displays and speaker cable stolen from my production shop, so I've been all over the scrap yard scene.


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## Les (Dec 7, 2009)

Smcl001 said:


> 300' and some of copper would really only get you about $50 or so dollars at a scarp yard. Plus some scrap yards ask you to strip your copper wires before you can get any $ for it.
> 
> 
> Also, when scrapping, make sure you say "My name is ----- and I am from ---- school." Cops are cracking down on ppl stealing raw materials so scrap yards are not buying from new customers if they seem "shady." (I think a teenager with a 100+' of copper wire is shady, no offense). I just had $900 worth of copper pyro displays and speaker cable stolen from my production shop, so I've been all over the scrap yard scene.



I would think that 300' would get you more than that.

Regardless, let's be responsible and not throw away recyclables.


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## gafftapegreenia (Dec 7, 2009)

Well they pay by pound and not by foot.

And yes they want the cable stripped or with only one jacket like THHN. Most places won't take scrap SOOW jacket and all, or if they do they pay much less since it isn't "clean" copper.


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## photoatdv (Dec 7, 2009)

That... or what would the romex normally be used for? Couldn't you guys give it to someone who has a legitimate use for it.


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## gafftapegreenia (Dec 7, 2009)

I don't think Romex would be suitable for permanent residential installation after being repeatedly fatigued through coiling and uncoiling and the general abusive environment of entertainment usage.


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## shiben (Dec 8, 2009)

Forgive my ignorance, but what the hell is NW standing for? I am not particularly up on my wire types, and cant figure out who would put solid core in anything that needs coiling. Ever.


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## gafftapegreenia (Dec 8, 2009)

shiben said:


> and cant figure out who would put solid core in anything that needs coiling. Ever.



Someone a few dimmers short of a full rack.


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## Footer (Dec 8, 2009)

shiben said:


> Forgive my ignorance, but what the hell is NW standing for? I am not particularly up on my wire types, and cant figure out who would put solid core in anything that needs coiling. Ever.






Romex cable is made for wiring circuits in buildings. It is meant to be put into walls and that is it. It is not made to be handled repeatedly. It is solid core because it is cheaper to make that way.


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## derekleffew (Dec 8, 2009)

shiben said:


> Forgive my ignorance, but what the hell is NW standing for? ...


I believe the OP meant NM, not NW, for "*N*on-*M*etallic sheathed," of which Romex is the most popular brand name.


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## Les (Dec 8, 2009)

shiben said:


> Forgive my ignorance, but what the hell is NW standing for? I am not particularly up on my wire types, and cant figure out who would put solid core in anything that needs coiling. Ever.



I'm not sure what NW means either... I'm guessing the OP meant NM though, which means non-metallic (not in conduit).

Edit: Derek beat me to the punch!


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## Anvilx (Dec 8, 2009)

Excuse me, I meant NM. I did put Non Metallic in the tags though, (NM was to short a term) so not a complete failure.


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## shiben (Dec 9, 2009)

Ahhhh got it. In the part of the Chicago suburbs I am from, you have to put any wiring in a home in EMT, and thats really the only place I ever dealt with wiring, other than at a theater with raceways. Now im really confused, because I cant figure out why you would want an extension made out of romex in the first place... I like my SOOW.


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## gafftapegreenia (Dec 9, 2009)

shiben said:


> Now im really confused, because I cant figure out why you would want an extension made out of romex in the first place... I like my SOOW.



Again, YOU DON'T, and the people who made it in the first place need to have their sanity questioned.


An entire house EMT? That's gotta be a pain.


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## Anvilx (Dec 9, 2009)

shiben said:


> Now im really confused, because I cant figure out why you would want an extension made out of romex in the first place... I like my SOOW.



Money? I don't know. What is the price of romex vs SOOW?


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## mstaylor (Dec 9, 2009)

EMT or MC wiring? I would EMT to be cumbersome in home construction.


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## erosing (Dec 9, 2009)

It's not money, per foot SOOW is close enough to NM that it wouldn't be cost effective. As of yesterday my local Home Depot had SOOW (10 ga.) for $1.22 and NM was $1.72. 

I think the SOOW (12 ga.) was about $0.10 cheaper than the SOOW (12 ga.).


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## shiben (Dec 10, 2009)

mstaylor said:


> EMT or MC wiring? I would EMT to be cumbersome in home construction.



I believe its all EMT, as pretty much all homes and all new constructions have solid, metallic conduits for everything except tail outs to lighting fixtures, where flexible metal conduit is used. The codes in my hometown are fairly strict tho, all new houses need to have fire suppression systems of some type and central alarm systems installed, though its probably a city code and not an IL thing. Here in Michigan NM is pretty common, but it leads to some seriously sketchy stuff going on near the breaker box, at least in my old house.


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## tjrobb (Dec 10, 2009)

In 2012 the Resi code is going to mandate residential sprinklers for ALL new home construction. I imagine that's going to make things interesting...


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## shiben (Dec 10, 2009)

tjrobb said:


> In 2012 the Resi code is going to mandate residential sprinklers for ALL new home construction. I imagine that's going to make things interesting...



And expensive. Funny thing is, a sprinkler system going off is incredibly damaging to a home, I have heard it can cause more damage than the fire itself if a small fire trips it, however, im a theater geek, not a house builder.


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## fredthe (Dec 10, 2009)

shiben said:


> And expensive. Funny thing is, a sprinkler system going off is incredibly damaging to a home, I have heard it can cause more damage than the fire itself if a small fire trips it, however, im a theater geek, not a house builder.


Sprinkler systems were a requirement in my county in MD 15 years ago. Residential systems usually have individual heat-activated heads, so a false trip is pretty unlikely, and it's only going to set off one head. A fire big enough to set it off is already going to cause a fair bit of damage.

Also, most insurance companies offer a discount for sprinkler systems... I doubt they'd do that if sprinklers lead to increased costs.

-Fred


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## tjrobb (Dec 11, 2009)

It takes ~90 seconds to trip a standard resi sprinkler, on average. Any fire that can burn that long (IMO) is not "small." The other damage issue is water, but consider <10 gallons a minute (per head) for sprinklers versus around 250 gallons a minute from the FD. And the response time...

One must also remember that resi sprinklers are designed to allow evacuation, whereas (most) comm/ind systems are designed for suppression or control of the fire. This allows a reduction in the "strength" of resi systems.

I must state here that I am a big fan of resi sprinklers, so there is a bias. However, wherever possible I am using data that is fairly easy to verify.

EDIT: The big falsity about sprinklers (alluded to above) is that one sprinkler trips the rest of them. There are very few systems (deluge type) that are installed today that can do that. About the only one most theatre geeks will see is the water curtain for the proscenium arch (if you don't have a fire curtain). They are designed and operate in a different manner than a standard system and are only used for very special conditions. And as far as false trips go, unless the head freezes the odds of spontaneous failure are around 1 in 16 million heads.


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## shiben (Dec 11, 2009)

Well then, I revise my opinion of the things. Although I have burned things longer than 90 sec. in my house, although I suppose it probably wasnt big enough to melt a sprinkler head. Also, what is the danger of hitting them with a ladder or something? At least in my house, I hit the ceiling all the time trying to get 2x4 lumber into the basement...


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## Les (Dec 11, 2009)

shiben said:


> Well then, I revise my opinion of the things. Although I have burned things longer than 90 sec. in my house, although I suppose it probably wasnt big enough to melt a sprinkler head. Also, what is the danger of hitting them with a ladder or something? At least in my house, I hit the ceiling all the time trying to get 2x4 lumber into the basement...



The danger would be an uncontrolled jet of water going from the ceiling to the floor :/.

But, I'll bet most residential installations use those recessed kind with the pop-off caps.

EMT in a home? That's not the code down here in Texas. It sounds awfully painstaking and expensive. The only real benefit I can see it having is providing protection against nails that homeowners put through the walls for hanging pictures and stuff. I'm sure it's much safer than straight romex in many ways, but it sounds like overkill for a home (unless maybe build a steel frame house).


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## Anvilx (Dec 11, 2009)

Les said:


> EMT in a home? That's not the code down here in Texas. It sounds awfully painstaking and expensive. The only real benefit I can see it having is providing protection against nails that homeowners put through the walls for hanging pictures and stuff. I'm sure it's much safer than straight romex in many ways, but it sounds like overkill for a home (unless maybe build a steel frame house).



There is a cheaper solution then EMT. (They are affixed to the stud at the same level as the wire.)


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