# Old theatre lights CAN be useful.



## derekleffew (Oct 24, 2007)

Took longer to open the package than to build the unit.

Lamp kit = $7.46
Shade = $9.96
Bulb = $5.00 ? 14W Florescent = 60W.

Okay, the SourceFour™ yoke label DOES say "Not for Residential Use," but I doubt the mattress tag police are going to come arrest me. And yes, I pulled the shutters from force of habit. Until I need the fixture, it's going to make a lovely addition to my office.

Notice the UL label in picture #2. 

As my roommate was walking by, he said "Too bad they got rid of all the VL2Cs, you could have done that to them!" That would be slightly more complicated, but not by much.

I want a cut of each one of these sold on ebay!


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## SteveB (Oct 24, 2007)

derekleffew said:


> Took longer to open the package than to build the unit.
> Lamp kit = $7.46
> Shade = $9.96
> Bulb = $5.00 ? 14W Florescent = 60W.
> ...



That is the butt-F _ _ _ _ _ N ugliest table lamp I have ever seen. I guarantee you that is not going into the new house/apartment if your SO has any taste.

SB


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## STEVETERRY (Oct 24, 2007)

SteveB said:


> That is the butt-F _ _ _ _ _ N ugliest table lamp I have ever seen. I guarantee you that is not going into the new house/apartment if your SO has any taste.
> SB



Thank you.

ST


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## gafftaper (Oct 24, 2007)

SteveB said:


> That is the butt-F _ _ _ _ _ N ugliest table lamp I have ever seen. I guarantee you that is not going into the new house/apartment if your SO has any taste.
> SB



But honey it's cool and I made it myself... 
_*
Put it in the garage!!*_

I've got some 40 or 50 year old century fresnels I'm going to rewire and use someday when we get a bigger house.


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## Footer (Oct 24, 2007)

Ya.... I think it would take a lot for my girlfriend let me bring that home... so far I have punched a hole in her fridge for a certain beverage dispenser... ran ethernet cable all over the house.... and who knows what else... I think the placeing an old fixture in our living room might end me out on the front lawn. Now for the office....


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## ship (Oct 24, 2007)

he he he, my girl friend doesn't mind my tinkerings or my "guy zone" garage... just the amount of time I spend there tinkering. Just finished re-doing the reading lamp over the bed, it's now 54" high with two side arm swivels to it. One a low voltage wash light, the other a low voltage MR-11 flood. Both are controlled indipendantly and swivel to about a 160 degree axis so they can cover the bed or my desk.

My creations are all over the place - sometimes they work, sometimes as with the vinal vertical blinds that came with the house that I glued wall paper to don't work out so well - the glue did not stick so well on some of them. For the most part she is understanding and likes such creations. Definate advantage.


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## gafftapegreenia (Oct 24, 2007)

Derek, you really don't like old fixtures do you?

Reminds me today, I was moving some of the worklights around, in this case Electro Controls PAR 64's. (Another re-qire project - the list grows). Anyway, the assistant designer just said, "God, those are ugly, I hate them". I was hurt, but the designer from out last show, She Loves Me, just said "Noah, she fails to see their inner beauty". We are such dorks, oh well. 

I'm planning a table lamp with one of the old 360Q's I was forced, hear me, forced to scrap. The only useable parts were the reflector, one lens and the retainer ring. This thing was one of those that left me saying, "how did it end up like this?". Currently, it is an empty shell, but I plan on doing the socket on the yoke, along with a small lamp internally to make it glow. With the shutters and reflector gone there are plenty of holes for light to glow from. Put these two lamps on a three way switch and, *BAM*, high class.


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## derekleffew (Oct 24, 2007)

gafftapegreenia said:


> Derek, you really don't like old fixtures do you?


 I love old fixtures! The one in the picture is a first generation 436 dating all the way back to 1993.


gafftapegreenia said:


> Currently, it is an empty shell, but I plan on doing the socket on the yolk, along with a small lamp internally to make it glow. With the shutters and reflector gone there are plenty of holes for light to glow from. Put these two lamps on a three way switch and, *BAM*, high class.


 Eggs have* yolks*; theatre lights have *yokes*.

Please post pictures so we can show those naysayers how attractive stage lights can be. I suppose it helps that I live with a guy who's also into lighting.


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## gafftapegreenia (Oct 24, 2007)

derekleffew said:


> Eggs have yolk*s*; theatre lights have yoke*s*.



GAHHHH! The proofread police catch me at last.

Have you hugged your Source 4 today?


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## Charc (Oct 25, 2007)

So that is an old version of S4? I noticed when I took a tour of the regional theater I'll be interning at that they had those older S4s, though I didn't know it at the time, and I kept scratching my head. I also kept dying a little inside as one of the PAR56s in the lobby needed relamping... STAT!

I have a few "old" lights lying around. Well the 360 Radials, I don't know if they count, but I can't even figure out what to lamp them with. I have a half dozen of those on the side. They are all pretty much messed up. Looks like some kind of screw base... *mutters about radials*

I have two "Strand Century" lights that look to be PC. It has some really weird like blue / yellow knobs, and the whip has no connector. It is on my list of things to do. I want to clean these two out really well, get the ol' stage pin on there, and test their lamps. Maybe the quality of light is worth it. Maybe it's just the variety I'm looking for. I'm slowly amassing our "old lights" into something useable, thinking one of them will be "just perfect" for what I need some day. (So far, they're all just perfect, they shoot light out the end!)


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## gafftapegreenia (Oct 25, 2007)

To some people, anything not S4 is old, so radial lekos count. 

Hey, my college has some of them old S4's too!! I noticed they dont have that handy handle on the back.


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## Charc (Oct 25, 2007)

gafftapegreenia said:


> To some people, anything not S4 is old, so radial lekos count.
> Hey, my college has some of them old S4's too!! I noticed they dont have that handy handle on the back.



Exactly what tipped me off from the floor!

Can you even buy replacement lamps for those radials? Are they worth lamping, or scraping? Maybe work them into architectural lighting?

Man, I really wanna know what those Strand PC units are, it's bugging me now. They have a weird front. And it doesn't have a standard yoke, as to those aforementioned knobs, that don't connect to the unit, rather to the yoke. And it has some kind of pin, where I would mount a C-Clamp, I have no clue how to get this into the air. Sorry the description is poor, I keep walking by it, and have yet to actually pick it up to look at it in-depth. It might not even be PC. This sounds like a fun project.

Kudos to anyone that can read my mind / poor description and produce a picture and model number.


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## gafftapegreenia (Oct 25, 2007)

Umm, I don't know the number, but there are, or at least were, tungsten-halogen lamps that had a long neck so the filament lined up in the focal point of a radial reflector. If your ship, you would just jack the lamp base and use regular lamps.

Man, I reall want pics of those Strands. Did you check the online strand archive yet?


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## Charc (Oct 25, 2007)

gafftapegreenia said:


> Umm, I don't know the number, but there are, or at least were, tungsten-halogen lamps that had a long neck so the filament lined up in the focal point of a radial reflector. If your ship, you would just jack the lamp base and use regular lamps.
> Man, I reall want pics of those Strands. Did you check the online strand archive yet?



They looked relatively new too, so I could swear it's just some kind of light that just never caught on, like the 1KL6 series by Altman. I don't mean to mislead you if I'm wrong. The digicam is in my bag for tomorrow though... but I need to remember to take the pics.

Edit:
I thought the Strand archive is inaccessible with the new site?


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## gafftapegreenia (Oct 25, 2007)

http://www.strandarchive.co.uk/lanterns/index.html

The Strandarchive is like Klieglbros.com, in no way affiliated with the actual company, but rather a support base for fans/users/historians.


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## Charc (Oct 25, 2007)

gafftapegreenia said:


> http://www.strandarchive.co.uk/lanterns/index.html
> The Strandarchive is like Klieglbros.com, in no way affiliated with the actual company, but rather a support base for fans/users/historians.



To the best of my recollection, it's not up there. Perhaps I got the manufacturer wrong, though I think I'm right. Maybe it's an after-market yoke that's tripping me up? I intend to find out.


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## gafftaper (Oct 25, 2007)

charcoaldabs said:


> To the best of my recollection, it's not up there. Perhaps I got the manufacturer wrong, though I think I'm right. Maybe it's an after-market yoke that's tripping me up? I intend to find out.



It's called a camera Charc... Use it... Post... Answers will come quickly...  


The big thing around my house is I'm notorious for "fixing" things. We had a portable fan with low, medium, and high push button switches. The buttons died. I went down to my tool box and grabbed this big fat 2" long toggle switch and wired it to high. We've been using the thing for 10 years like that. The fan selector in an old car went out... too poor at the time to afford the $50 part, I managed to rewire it to work in off and high. There have been other similar projects. My wife makes fun of my ability to make everything in life simple. In our house you get a choice of High or off. There is no middle ground in my world baby!!


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## dj_illusions (Oct 25, 2007)

I got a really really old fixture that I found in an old venue, it is sort of like a big par can, I gutted it and turned it into a pot plant, it is growing bamboo at the moment, which I stole from the same venue.

I will post a pic. I wouldnt mind knowing what kind of fixture it actually is...


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## derekleffew (Oct 25, 2007)

Charc, is the socket in your radial ERSs that you think is a screwbase actually a medium prefocus? If so, you have many lamps from which to choose. Once you post the pictures, I'm sure someone will identify them, then we'll tell you the lamp we used to use, and ship will come up with the preferred modern variety.


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## Charc (Oct 25, 2007)

Okay, actually two different fixtures. Sorry for the confusion.

The first:

Strand Century Polaris Fresnel

The second, an unidentified PC.

My image files are too large, and I can't figure out a way to size them down at school.

Suggestions welcome.


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## Charc (Oct 25, 2007)

derekleffew said:


> Charc, is the socket in your radial ERSs that you think is a screwbase actually a medium prefocus? If so, you have many lamps from which to choose. Once you post the pictures, I'm sure someone will identify them, then we'll tell you the lamp we used to use, and ship will come up with the preferred modern variety.



I'll go grab some pics before Meeting.

(Meeting? What's meeting you say?! Meeting for Worship. Part of the quaker religion. I go to a friends school. Essentially we nap in silence for 45 minutes. Look it up.)


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## derekleffew (Oct 25, 2007)

Using Graphic Converter, do a "save as" and select a lower resolution .jpg, thus a smaller file. And/or crop the photo to just the fixture.


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## derekleffew (Oct 25, 2007)

I feel I must confess to an error, before STEVETERRY catches me. The fixture out of which I made a desk lamp was a *2nd* generation S4, as it has the integral safety attachment point. Conveniently, it also has 3 holes in the top of the yoke, to allow for offset hanging (or use two clamps side-by-side, if you're sure you never want to pan the fixture!) The "handy handle" on the lamp cap came about with the HPL750, and thus I suppose is the *3rd* generation.

Perhaps someone at ETC can fill in the gaps and add dates to these iterations of the Source4™ ERS. I know there also have been several lens tube modifications over the years. The timeline at http://www.etcconnect.com/minisite/sourcefour/history.html is somewhat lacking in the minutiae of details.

Yes I hugged my SourceFour™ today, but the older one that I didn't make into a lamp is now jealous, as it's hanging in the garage next to a Strand-Century LekoLight.

Yes, I realize I need to dust. The garage doubles as a wood shop, and everyone knows carpentry and electrics don't mix.


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## Charc (Oct 25, 2007)

I just noticed that "safety attachment" point yesterday. At least I assume that's what I found. Are my safeties supposed to be permanently attached to that point?... oops.

Well here are the pics of the Polaris. Is it worth trying to find a lamp for and added a stage pin?

Edit:
Forgot to take pics of the radials, they are in the background of pic 3. Can you see the lamp base type?


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## Charc (Oct 25, 2007)

This is the unidentifiable PC.
Notes in instrument:
Only distinguishing marking has its own picture.
Note that the gel frame holder seems to have a terrible design.
Note the lamp, which I've never seen before, and there seems to be no reflector.


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## STEVETERRY (Oct 25, 2007)

charcoaldabs said:


> I just noticed that "safety attachment" point yesterday. At least I assume that's what I found. Are my safeties supposed to be permanently attached to that point?... oops.
> Well here are the pics of the Polaris. Is it worth trying to find a lamp for and added a stage pin?
> Edit:
> Forgot to take pics of the radials, they are in the background of pic 3. Can you see the lamp base type?



Certainly. that's a modern high performance Ianiro pole-operated TV fixture that will put out a lot of light and have a nice spot/flood range. It looks like it's in pretty good shape.

ST


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## STEVETERRY (Oct 25, 2007)

charcoaldabs said:


> This is the unidentifiable PC.
> Notes in instrument:
> Only distinguishing marking has its own picture.
> Note that the gel frame holder seems to have a terrible design.
> Note the lamp, which I've never seen before, and there seems to be no reflector.



I would say it's from one of the smaller manufacturers of the 40's and 50's--perhaps Duwico or Columbia.

Definitely not Kliegl.

BTW, that "bad" gel frame holder was designed for quick gel changes.

ST


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## STEVETERRY (Oct 25, 2007)

derekleffew said:


> Perhaps someone at ETC can fill in the gaps and add dates to these iterations of the Source4™ ERS. I know there also have been several lens tube modifications over the years. The timeline at http://www.etcconnect.com/minisite/sourcefour/history.html is somewhat lacking in the minutiae of details.



There have been many thousands of small improvements done over the 15 year life of S4, and they continue. They are not really collected in one place for dissemination. Good thing, because they are mostly boring manufacturing improvements or optical prescription changes!

ST


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## STEVETERRY (Oct 25, 2007)

charcoaldabs said:


> Forgot to take pics of the radials, they are in the background of pic 3. Can you see the lamp base type?



Those units are Altman 360's, (not 360Q's). Normally known in the rental business as "incandescents", as opposed to "Axials". I must confess, it seems like "radial" for an ERS is a Control Booth term!

They take a medium prefocus T-12 lamp (probably almost impossible to find these days) or a quartz conversion like the 750W EGG (as in ANSI code, not food type).

They were designed for the C13D filament of the prefocus T-12 lamp, and the EGG is a smaller coiled-coil filament. The LCL is similar, but the filament geometry is wildly different. As such, you won't get a very nice field with it. It was one of the first attempts at a quartz conversion lamp.

ST


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## derekleffew (Oct 25, 2007)

Charc-
Here's a link to the .pdf for your Strand/Ianiro/Quartzcolor Polaris. [SIZE=-1]www.*strand*light.com/PDF/US-05/*Polaris*_07April05.pdf Note it could be as young as 12 years old. You'll need the appropriate socket and 1000W lamp. It is a studio fixture, hence the pole-operation, but you don't have to use the pole, and it's impractical over 15' anyway. A very nice light.

As for the PC Spot, also known as a box spot, it's an antique, and not worth refurbishing for stage use. It IS missing its spherical reflector.

Your radials are Altman 360s (not Qs). It IS a medium prefocus socket, and can take either EGE 500W or EGG 750W. Original lamp was a non T/H 750T12/9, ANSI code DNT, but hard to find and more expensive than the EGG. Maybe ship knows of a more modern lamp than the EGG, but I doubt it. Use the lens in the sunlight trick to determine if they are 6x9 or 6x12, clean them up inside and out, spend a good deal of time bench-focusing them, and they will be perfectly usable. This is what everyone used until the axial 360Q came about.
[/SIZE]


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## derekleffew (Oct 25, 2007)

STEVETERRY said:


> ...I must confess, it seems like "radial" for an ERS is a Control Booth term!...


I first heard the term "radial" used by Larry Scheoneman, owner of DesignLab Chicago, in the mid 1980s. Someone here on ControlBooth said their theatre called them "toploaders," which I really like and want to propagate!


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## Logos (Oct 25, 2007)

derekleffew said:


> Charc-
> As for the PC Spot, also known as a box spot, it's an antique, and not worth refurbishing for stage use. It IS missing its spherical reflector.
> [/SIZE]


I agree that it's not worth refurbishing but it may not be missing it's reflector. I have a few antiques of similar era (Strand Patt 45 etc) that had no reflector at all. The problem was that reflectors were made out of glass at that time and were expensive so the really budget lights didn't have them. The Lamp looks like an old Phillips T1 bayonet base. (UK/Aus) Modern replacement is T24? not sure.


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## STEVETERRY (Oct 25, 2007)

Logos said:


> I agree that it's not worth refurbishing but it may not be missing it's reflector. I have a few antiques of similar era (Strand Patt 45 etc) that had no reflector at all. The problem was that reflectors were made out of glass at that time and were expensive so the really budget lights didn't have them. The Lamp looks like an old Phillips T1 bayonet base. (UK/Aus) Modern replacement is T24? not sure.




I think the lamp is a G-18 medium screw base, last commonly used in mini scoops called "wizards" around 1980.

ST


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## STEVETERRY (Oct 25, 2007)

derekleffew said:


> I first heard the term "radial" used by Larry Scheoneman, owner of DesignLab Chicago, in the mid 1980s. Someone here on ControlBooth said their theatre called them "toploaders," which I really like and want to propagate!



I think Larry made it up. Maybe it's a Chicago thing.

In New York, we call them "incandescents".

(For any of you that are lucky enough to own the classic roadhouse crew tee shirt: "We don't care how they do it in New York", sorry. New York is where the thing was invented!)




ST


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## gafftapegreenia (Oct 25, 2007)

derekleffew said:


> As for the PC Spot, also known as a box spot, it's an antique, and not worth refurbishing for stage use. It IS missing its spherical reflector.
> [/SIZE]



We talked about the whole reflector/non-reflector thing in the Question of the Day board a while back. Seems the reason was that, besides cost, the screw base lamps of the day were hard to get correctly aligned with both the focal point of a reflector and the focal point of the lens. If you did get it right, it could move easily. Thus, the beam was more even WITHOUT a reflector than with one. 

Also, I wouldn't call that a box spot. A box spot is truly a "box", like the Altman #101. Thats just your standard, old-school PC. Looks like someone rewired it. At least you don't have asbestos to worry about. Clean it up and display it in the lobby before the show with a donations bucket beneath it.


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## Charc (Oct 25, 2007)

Re: Multiple replies on radials.

I woulda noted them as 360 Radials, but I coulda sworn I saw a sticker on one that said "Century", or something besides Altman. However, given my track record with the "Strand PC", I could be wrong, remind me to investigate.

As for naming them? My Dept Head has referred to them as chimney lights, as "they can only be placed in that orientation (lamp base pointing up) so the heat can escape".

The ones I have there are in pretty bad shape. We do have about a dozen in service in our other larger venue.

Next order of business:

Anyone ever had to completely disassemble a 6x22 because, for some reason, the template-holder holder was 180º out of alignment? That was not fun, but I got a new understanding of how lights are assembled. I was assuming during reconstruction that ever shutter is supposed to be sandwiched between two of those metal disks. I found two shutters on the same "plane" with two metal disks stacked ontop. Also, for the life of me, I couldn't get those **** shutters out of the fixture without breaking them.

P.S.
What do I do with the relic?


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## gafftapegreenia (Oct 25, 2007)

charcoaldabs said:


> That was not fun, but I got a new understanding of how lights are assembled. I was assuming during reconstruction that ever shutter is supposed to be sandwiched between two of those metal disks. I found two shutters on the same "plane" with two metal disks stacked ontop. Also, for the life of me, I couldn't get those **** shutters out of the fixture without breaking them.
> P.S.
> What do I do with the relic?



I feel your pain with the 360's. In my rehabbing some 360Q's, I learned alot about their construction. Hands on experience, always the best! Those shutters, yes the only way to remove them it to cut them off or drill out the rivet and pull out the shutter. Only the "modern" 360Q's have provisions for shutter replacement. 

As for the relic, like I said, clean it up and hook it up in the lobby before shows with a bucket for donations.


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## Charc (Oct 25, 2007)

gafftapegreenia said:


> I feel your pain with the 360's. In my rehabbing some 360Q's, I learned alot about their construction. Hands on experience, always the best! Those shutters, yes the only way to remove them it to cut them off or drill out the rivet and pull out the shutter. Only the "modern" 360Q's have provisions for shutter replacement.
> As for the relic, like I said, clean it up and hook it up in the lobby before shows with a bucket for donations.



I'm not sure if we are allowed to stoop as "low" as donations...


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## gafftapegreenia (Oct 25, 2007)

Well then, use it as a tech table light a a sign of your insane geek-cool-nerd-tech awesomeness.


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## gafftaper (Oct 26, 2007)

My college T.D. out here in Seattle taught me axials and radials... so it's not just a Chicago thing. I've never heard anyone call them "incandescents" out here. I've heard "Leko" used really generically... even used to describe a Source Four.


Charc, Derek has shown you the way. Take that antique and build yourself an ubergeek lamp from it. Or you can save it as the first part of your personal collection. 


So you're at a Quaker school huh? I suppose that explains the extreme concern for your safety.


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## SteveB (Oct 26, 2007)

charcoaldabs said:


> Re: Multiple replies on radials.
> I woulda noted them as 360 Radials, but I coulda sworn I saw a sticker on one that said "Century", or something besides Altman.



These might be Century's. Altman copied the design for the #360

I'm not certain, but I believe that even on the very first Altman's, the gel holder is rounded at the corners, where the Century gel frame slot goes right to the end. The Century might have a "Century" imprint on the handle, as well as the handle being more oval as compared to the diamond shaped Altman (can't tell from the photo), which is why the Altman wrench knock-off of the Bash and Century wrenches wouldn't work on a Century t-handle. 

FWIW, I agree with ST having never heard the term "Radial" to describe what was simply an ellipsoidal. When the "Axial" was invented, the #360 simply became an "Incandescent". 

Steve Bailey


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## gafftapegreenia (Oct 26, 2007)

The old, first-gen 360Q's I have under my care have gel frame holders that are squared off and not rounded. 

Just to add to the topic, I call them radials and axials. In general, for me, a "leko" is anything less than a Source 4, whereas as Source 4 is just that.


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## SteveB (Oct 26, 2007)

gafftapegreenia said:


> The old, first-gen 360Q's I have under my care have gel frame holders that are squared off and not rounded.
> .



Thanks for the info., it's been a since I've seen a really early 360.

SB


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## church (Oct 27, 2007)

they are Altmans - come up regularly on ebay. The reason the lamp was mounted in the chimney is that with the old Tungsten lamp the tungsten boils of the filament and rises up into the neck of the lamp where it condebses on the glass and makes it black. This idea helps maintain the light output and the life of the lamp. Halogen lamps don't have this problem due to the presence of the halogen gas which prevents the Tungsten depositing on the glass (The formal explanation is called the halogen cycle).


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## Charc (Oct 27, 2007)

church said:


> they are Altmans - come up regularly on ebay. The reason the lamp was mounted in the chimney is that with the old Tungsten lamp the tungsten boils of the filament and rises up into the neck of the lamp where it condebses on the glass and makes it black. This idea helps maintain the light output and the life of the lamp. Halogen lamps don't have this problem due to the presence of the halogen gas which prevents the Tungsten depositing on the glass (The formal explanation is called the halogen cycle).



Actually one of them was the aforementioned "Century Copy", but it is out of frame. It so happens that that was the one instrument I looked at closely previously.


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## SteveB (Oct 28, 2007)

charcoaldabs said:


> Actually one of them was the aforementioned "Century Copy", but it is out of frame. It so happens that that was the one instrument I looked at closely previously.



There's no such thing as a Century Copy. Century made the original. It was Altman, L&E, Major, Capitol etc... that copied from Century.

And a question. What is this sudden huge fascination with ancient gear amongst all the newbies ?. We old timers are seemingly and constantly having to remember the not-so-good-old days a whole lot these days. 

Yes, I vividly remember that a T12 lamp burned base up , to allow the burned off tungsten to collect at the top of the base and prolong light output. I also remember having to change the bloody lamps all the friggin time due to short life. Not to mention crappy and inconsistent light output, unit-to-unit. I personally am perfectly happy using the "new" gear - like TH lamps, S4's, etc... (no pun intended).

Can't we talk about LED's for a change ?. Anybody else wonder if we are right at the cutting edge of the technology and maybe it's not quite ready for prime time ?

Yes, I'm cranky, note the time of the post and that I just sat at the console for 4-1/2 hrs. (no break - no intermission) for a Caribbean Comedy Festival where I did not understand the lingo or the humor, not to mention the Vidiots Sun-Gun in my eyes half the night, and am just now getting to bed at 3 AM, and have to return to work at 2:30 PM tomorrow for a Russian Comedy Play of some sorts (you now know as much as I do about the event). 

Steve Bailey
Brooklyn College


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## gafftaper (Oct 28, 2007)

Steve I agree that we all should be looking at the future with topics like LED's and ACN. At the same time I think the old technology is great to learn about because we can learn a lot about lighting design and theory by looking at the good and bad of the old days. Secondly, there's a lot of that old crap lying around in closets out there and the young folks people are curious about it. No matter what, learning a little and developing a respect for those who lived through the "bad old days" is a good thing.


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## Hughesie (Oct 28, 2007)

Charc said:


> My image files are too large, and I can't figure out a way to size them down at school.
> 
> Suggestions welcome.



drop it in word 

the picture bar there is a button called "reduce picture size"
you should be able to export it, paint then upload it


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## Pie4Weebl (Oct 29, 2007)

Steeve, if it makes you feel any better I couldn't care less about old lights, all I see them as are pains I might have to deal with one day.


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## STEVETERRY (Oct 31, 2007)

SteveB said:


> There's no such thing as a Century Copy. Century made the original. It was Altman, L&E, Major, Capitol etc... that copied from Century.
> And a question. What is this sudden huge fascination with ancient gear amongst all the newbies ?. We old timers are seemingly and constantly having to remember the not-so-good-old days a whole lot these days.
> Yes, I vividly remember that a T12 lamp burned base up , to allow the burned off tungsten to collect at the top of the base and prolong light output. I also remember having to change the bloody lamps all the friggin time due to short life. Not to mention crappy and inconsistent light output, unit-to-unit. I personally am perfectly happy using the "new" gear - like TH lamps, S4's, etc... (no pun intended).
> Can't we talk about LED's for a change ?. Anybody else wonder if we are right at the cutting edge of the technology and maybe it's not quite ready for prime time ?
> ...




I agree.

While these fixtures are interesting, there are many books that describe their technology and history.

As for production in 2007, I have one word regarding these fixtures:

Dumpster.

(or, to be more global):

Skip.

But then, I'm just an old curmudgeon, along with Bailey.




ST


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## Les (Oct 31, 2007)

I don't think there's anything wrong with having a few old ones around. As long as they aren't getting in anyone's way or causing a safety concern what's the problem? I wouldn't personally use them on a regular basis, but to some people anything better than a parcan is excellent. I have actually been in the situation where I needed an ellipsoidal -- ANY ellipsoidal!!! Welcome to Community Theatre! LoL


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## gafftapegreenia (Nov 1, 2007)

Well, before you throw your old lights in a dumpster just send them to me! I'll even pay shipping. There, old lights off your hands and more crap in my basement. Worlds largest 360-360Q museum! I understand the whole "lets get over the past" thing, but I enjoy history and old lighting allows me to "know my roots". Learn from history or be doomed to repeate it. OH WAIT, you meant open trough striplights AREN'T a good idea? Besides, if we get rid of all the 12" Century Lekos, how will the kids like me appreciate the S4. Having that extra Leko or 6" Fresnel is always nice, and knowing how to use them makes you just that more versatile. That's my belief. You don't have to follow it, but thats why I fight for old lights. 

BTW, if we're trying to save the world, those old lights should be recycled, not trashed.

And STEVETERRY, you just want us to trash our old lights and buy more Source 4. I see how it is....(just kidding around STEVE)


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## SteveB (Nov 1, 2007)

Lester said:


> I don't think there's anything wrong with having a few old ones around. As long as they aren't getting in anyone's way or causing a safety concern what's the problem? I wouldn't personally use them on a regular basis, but to some people anything better than a



For a moment there I thought you might be talking about ST and I !.

SB


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## Les (Nov 2, 2007)

Who says I wasn't? (JK)


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## Serendipity (Aug 10, 2008)

gafftapegreenia said:


> Have you hugged your Source 4 today?



Greenia, may I make that my signature? Please? 

Not bad, Derek! Although I have a couple redesign plans if I ever make my own, involving a cute colorful shade, a lamp inside and gel at the bottom of the same color as the shade so that way I [strike]burn the table[/strike] create a nice colorful glow from the bottom of the fixture.

And, since everyone else imagined what would happen if they brought this home:
Mom: Well, um, that's cute... It's going in your room, right? And does it take normal-edison-power?


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## Charc (Aug 10, 2008)

Serendipity said:


> Greenia, may I make that my signature? Please?
> 
> Not bad, Derek! Although I have a couple redesign plans if I ever make my own, involving a cute colorful shade, a lamp inside and gel at the bottom of the same color as the shade so that way I [strike]burn the table[/strike] create a nice colorful glow from the bottom of the fixture.
> 
> ...



Before long you'll be spec'ing your bedrooms to contain 400A three-phase wye camlock disconnects.


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## derekleffew (Aug 10, 2008)

I believe her rider states she can go either Cam or Bare-End, as long as there are 3 hots. She also carries her own MMs and FFs.


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## Serendipity (Aug 10, 2008)

charcoaldabs said:


> Before long you'll be spec'ing your bedrooms to contain 400A three-phase wye camlock disconnects.


Well, naturally I'd want three phase, but I don't have a personal dimmer pack, so I might as well wait until I'm off at college, and the dorm fees will cover my power bill!


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## Van (Aug 10, 2008)

derekleffew said:


> I believe her rider states she can go either Cam or Bare-End, as long as there are 3 hots. She also carries her own MMs and FFs.


 Derek You're spending too much time on IRC!


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## Charc (Aug 10, 2008)

Van said:


> Derek You're spending too much time on IRC!



Oh my goodness.

You know about that?

I feel sorry for you.

Now I have to apologize on Derek's behalf for his slew of comments today.

P.S.
'Dip has inspired a new thread topic.


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## Serendipity (Aug 14, 2008)

charcoaldabs said:


> Now I have to apologize on Derek's behalf for his slew of comments today.
> 
> P.S.
> 'Dip has inspired a new thread topic.




1. But the cookies were fantastic...

2. Uh oh, what'd I do now?! And what thread?

3. Greenia, can I please use your "Have you hugged your Source Four today?" for my signature?


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## church (Jan 8, 2010)

the photo shows a Strand Patt 243 2kw, ten inch fresnel I modified for to use a PAR 38 for a friend who is using it as a reading lamp.


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## banjokeith (Jan 8, 2010)

On what spoiled planet is a Source Four considered an "old theatre light". I would kill for instruments half that 'old'.

Good job, you just tied up an item that would get you at least $150 on ebay to fill the role of a nine dollar table lamp.


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## MarshallPope (Jan 8, 2010)

But it's a darn cool "$150 table lamp."


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## Les (Jan 8, 2010)

banjokeith said:


> On what spoiled planet is a Source Four considered an "old theatre light". I would kill for instruments half that 'old'.
> 
> Good job, you just tied up an item that would get you at least $150 on ebay to fill the role of a nine dollar table lamp.



Note that derekleffew merely attached a lamp socket to the yoke. The fixture can be easily converted back to theatrical use when he needs it for a plot.


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## derekleffew (Jan 8, 2010)

I'm sure STEVETERRY and SteveB are turning over in their (would be) graves at the thought of the resurrection of this thread!


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## icewolf08 (Jan 8, 2010)

It is hard to tell in the photo but those are old 2K fresnels. The heat has been off in the theatre for two days (and won't be back on til sunday at the earliest but the outlook is tuesday) so we are doing everything we can to warm the place up. 16 2k Fresnels seem to heat the place up pretty well along with a few other space heaters. We managed to get the temp in the house up to 70˚ from around 50˚. We plan to do it all again tomorrow morning as we have a two show day tomorrow! It was an odd request, but hey, it worked!


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## Beans45601 (Nov 18, 2011)

I think you should make some modifications. Mount the fixture on a base pointing straight up and mount the shade above that. Now you have a nice, diffuse 575 watt table lamp.


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## chausman (Nov 18, 2011)

Beans45601 said:


> I think you should make some modifications. Mount the fixture on a base pointing straight up and mount the shade above that. Now you have a nice, diffuse 575 watt table lamp.


 
Would make a nice addition to Derek's lamp.


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## derekleffew (Nov 18, 2011)

Beans45601 said:


> ... Mount the fixture on a base pointing straight up and mount the shade above that. ...



Nah, that just looks..._peculiar_.


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## shiben (Nov 18, 2011)

derekleffew said:


> Nah, that just looks..._peculiar_.


 
And that would be a really fracking bright table lamp.


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## Beans45601 (Nov 19, 2011)

Also I am glad you left the plastic on the shade. You wouldn't want it to get dusty!


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## ship (Nov 24, 2011)

Yep, Derek and I will never - ever see the same way in some things. Converting S-4 fixtures to table lamps when so many theater's out there would trade or kill for such a thing is a sin. This also from a person that want's asbestos whips left on antique fixtures and no restoration done. Enigma but great friend. The S-4 isn't old, but on the other hand I will soon be adding a 575w version to the museum.

I have made surplus radial fixtures into 120v/250w MR-16 lights - remove the reflector and install a track light into it, but that's a seperate thing in using the light as per a Leko still - just different. As per work - often making 10K and down in wattage studio Fresnels into LED fixtures, downsized in incandescent wattage and even recently - LED moving light props.


Still though... as said before, a S-4 table lamp? Just because you can, don't always mean you should.

if a carpenter, try an oak box spot - really cool project, if electrician - any number of old lights one can convert to LED or MR-16 etc. Did the 8" c.1916 Major PC Spotlight fully restored with "Pop" value and color changing LED lamp as source. Just a question of adding Mog. screw to Medium Screw adaptor and Medium Screw to Medium socket extender in doing so what otherwise is origional. Than adding a color changing LED lamp as the lamp. 

Sorry, better ways to do the "Pop" factor, shall I post pictures?


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## chausman (Nov 24, 2011)

ship said:


> Still though... as said before, a S-4 table lamp? Just because you can, don't always mean you should.
> 
> shall I post pictures?


 
You could say that about a lot of things. Too many places need source 4s for them to be table lamps!

Of course you should post pictures! That's one of the best things about CB! The pictures!


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## Nelson (Nov 24, 2011)

chausman said:


> You could say that about a lot of things. Too many places need source 4s for them to be table lamps!


 
Yeah, I'm still thrilled to come across surplus 360Qs for our auditorium!


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## ship (Nov 28, 2011)

Nelson said:


> Yeah, I'm still thrilled to come across surplus 360Qs for our auditorium!



Might be committing the same sin as it were - but with some older lights that I just cannot viably sell off as antique given past modification.

Have a whole lot of Kliegl #1365E, LECO #810 and #1700 fixtures. First three fixtures I worked on were all good in having all the fasteners and step lenses - just needed like 8 hours each of TLC. Next lot of them I picked up was a wash of mostly to only some in having all exterior screw holes drilled out for 3/16" rivets. None of the last eight fixtures I picked up had a step lens. They all had 6x9 lenses of various thicknesses installed. While this was an option and available during the period, given the first three Lekos with step lenses either the 60's #1700 had the wrong lens or all should be step lens. For the 50's step lenses instead of single PC lens I believe was most common in a thick lens.

This week I’ll probably be loading up the rest of the fixtures so I can piece mail together what I can in especially selling off the Kliegl fixtures with the proper lens - assuming they were not riveted together as a problem in as per a known Leko that will sell. After that piece together what I can for the rest of the Kliegl and LECO fixtures.

Two options after that. 

First a starting up store front theater is in need of Leko’s and given a lens train assembly in them, might be able to make them comparable to a 360' series Altman and bulk up that Leko need even if radial and old. (See other post on bench focus of the #1365E.) 

Convert them all for this theater sale to P-28s sockets also so they can use the EGE lamp - the one I just worked on had a P-28s in it, perhaps a later option or another change in the later era of the fixture in similar LCL with socket. Seems very interchangable in if one has a G-22 lamp, the P-28s should work fine in converting. 

So an option of making it into a compromised antique it is already but similar to a Altman 360 series Leko for as many as the theater can buy at a cheap price as the primary option. This only if of the above three versions they will bench focus properly with a lens train and or how many if any 6x16 lights they can use which is normally none. TBA on seeing what a 6x9 lens train will look like in these fixtures - probably will work but given the snout length, won't function properly. Only have a few sets of 6x12 lenses left so that will be a limitation.

Next option as was brought up in as it were production meetings on the subject of how best to sell off the Leko’s is to sell them to theater customers over E-Bay if possible. (Shipping and E-Bay's part of the profit is not liked in having to do.) Price is good but especially if a G-22 based discontinued lamp - even if I can upgrade to a modern lamp by way of spacer under the base plate, the only new lamp available is 100 hour in lamp life for a 500w lamp. Could also direct install a VL-1K lamp in it and it would be a direct fit but what home owner would be able to power it up, much less it would melt down the reflector and probably socket.

Many fixtures if pieced together I am thinking still viable for at best what I can find still original and with working lamps and the proper lenses. A portion of them. Next option the working 1950's Leko in bringing it up to 360' standards. But for the rest and possibly the bulk of them, the Production Manager’ as it were for this sale was thinking what if we did an incandescent household lamp inside the light? No, no lamp shade on it or anything like that - just a Leko that works with say a 100w or 150w A-lamp in it. Given the above in problems and I’m short on step lenses, plus will run really short dependant on how many lens trains I need to make for the theater 360's, plus run short of P-28s sockets. Thinking more and more that once I run out of parts, I will make home owner grade antique Lekos’ powered by clear A-Lamps.

Overall engineering of different sockets and lamps isn’t a big problem and they would still function the same way - just be something one could use at home and with a lot less power. Thinking that I’m going to be making a lot of A-Lamp powered 50's thru 60's Lekos to sell to customers with the gear that’s not otherwise viable for theater or museum quality. Thoughts?

As another thought - though the lack of clear lens might negate the concept... might also be looking into LED color changing lamps for the source. Less efficient for output still but adds the coolness factor given the price point might have to go up a bit more.


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## Les (Nov 28, 2011)

I had a 360Q which at some point had its reflector hole enlarged. I'm thinking they were missing the original lamp cap and modified it to fit a 360 med. prefocus cap. I'm sure THAT worked well... 

In any event, I was curious and stuck a porcelain Edison socket behind it. Installed a 75w frosted A-lamp and voila --- not a bad looking beam to it. Pretty dim, but would be nice for that industrial style loft. There are also mini-can lamps on the market which would fit in the original reflector -- from 25w-150w at hardware stores (up to 500w elsewhere). The mini can sockets should be an easy swap. On second thought, maybe a halogen A-lamp (frosted or unfrosted) would be the best fit to fill the oblong hole in the reflector.

The Altman 3.5Q has a mini can option for if the user needs a wattage lower than the 500w EHD. Same could be done to 360Q's I'm sure (but with more loss -- larger reflector hole) but I've never had the need.

LED would be cool. Remote controlled ellipsoidal. (Heh, I just realized that most of us already use remote_ly_ controlled ellipsoidals).


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## derekleffew (Nov 28, 2011)

ship said:


> ...First a starting up store front theater is in need of Leko’s and given a lens train assembly in them, might be able to make them comparable to a 360' series Altman and bulk up that Leko need even if radial and old. (See other post on bench focus of the #1365E.). ...


Given the amount of "modern" 360 and 360Q out there, I don't feel you're doing even the poorest of storefront theatres any favors with these fixtures. They're best as either museum pieces or decor lights/props.


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## ship (Nov 29, 2011)

Les said:


> I had a 360Q which at some point had its reflector hole enlarged. I'm thinking they were missing the original lamp cap and modified it to fit a 360 med. prefocus cap. I'm sure THAT worked well...
> 
> In any event, I was curious and stuck a porcelain Edison socket behind it. Installed a 75w frosted A-lamp and voila --- not a bad looking beam to it. Pretty dim, but would be nice for that industrial style loft. There are also mini-can lamps on the market which would fit in the original reflector -- from 25w-150w at hardware stores (up to 500w elsewhere). The mini can sockets should be an easy swap. On second thought, maybe a halogen A-lamp (frosted or unfrosted) would be the best fit to fill the oblong hole in the reflector.
> 
> ...


 
Mini-can (E-11) can be a direct retrofit replacement for G-9.5 sockets but not for radial P-28s/G-22 sockets. Given that, still a great idea in while I really seriously hate mini-can lamps, they are home owner grade lamps in dog poop and but are available everywhere. Just a question of adding a bit of spacer plates in engineering for the new socket option. Brilliant idea.

For line stage fixtures in G-9.5 lamp or E-11 to the P-28s radial, the spacer would get in the way of the reflector given the amount of space needed most likely, but if E-11, could work in smaller socket and less expectations of output.

“Not looking bad” says that the LED color changing lamp has a possibility of working. Would have thought a clear and incandescent A-lamp would work better but in seeing a frosted lamp in use... spells possibilities for lobby sales exponential given price point in good.

Ah’ ideas to think about further, thanks.

On the controllable option... more tech and control in price than I would want to get into or would sell I think. Self changing E-26 A-Lamp I think the best option over something needing power supply and controller assuming lack of output. Did a test of five lamps last year and the best G-30 from Osram was discontinued, but of them left the A-15 from Osram has a better fade/intensity and color pureness than the others last year in testing. Though some had adjustable fade rate or speed in being a good option - they didn’t have color purity or smooth rate comparable. Shorter lamp though in more work to engineer. 

Off to a start now given the Production Manager loves his fully reconditioned and pimped out c.1916 PC spotlight with color changing lamp in his lobby. Not very bright but has the color changing lamp in it for wow’ factor. That was a simple E-39 to E-26 socket adaptor with E-26 to E-26 socket extender adaptor situation though in just happening to bench focus properly.


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## ship (Nov 29, 2011)

derekleffew said:


> Given the amount of "modern" 360 and 360Q out there, I don't feel you're doing even the poorest of storefront theatres any favors with these fixtures. They're best as either museum pieces or decor lights/props.


 
Agreed in unless the linear devide in bright spot problem is solved, you are absolutely correct. Fair beam other than that hot spot divide so far seen.


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## ship (Nov 29, 2011)

chausman said:


> Of course you should post pictures! That's one of the best things about CB! The pictures!



Attached is a oak box spot with a 3.5Q5 lens and a Inkie reflector/socket assembly. 35w dc bayonet lamp, the asbestos looking padding is McMaster Carr #93285K15. Basically a light straight out of the "Home Built" chapter from Fuch's "Stage Lighting" 1929.

The bunch light is basically the same chapter & the same style of construction except that the heat shield is painted with ceramic white paint.


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## derekleffew (Nov 29, 2011)

One can't help but find humor in the dichotomy of the juxtaposition of the half-coupler on the yoke of an "olivette." What, were you out of Mega-Claws? Couldn't you have whittled yourself up a c-clamp? Where's the wooden safety cable?

They're beautiful, ship, but as I've said before, I'm not sure I understand their purpose. Still waiting on the maple Source Four.


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## Gern (Nov 29, 2011)

derekleffew said:


> Okay, the SourceFour™ yoke label DOES say "Not for Residential Use,"...


 I remember laughing hard at the same type sticker, the first time I saw it on an 18K fresnel!
Residential use... Yeah Right?
I've used em @ hundreds of residences; we do take them with use when we leave. Never left one for the home owner.


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## Nelson (Nov 29, 2011)

Next time my crew asks for more fixtures, I'll flippantly tell them "go carve one out of wood". When they balk, I can tell them "well, Mr. Ship did!" 

All joking aside, those are both neat fixtures! I can see them being used as props on stage or to stand in the lobby as conversation pieces. Would also be a good project for students to build. You could learn a lot about the theory of lenses, reflectors, point sources, and the like when building the fixtures.


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## Les (Nov 29, 2011)

Time to get out the lathe. I'm gonna turn me a 360Q!

Actually, with all the spare parts I have around (plus an under-used Dremel tool) I've thought more than twice about splitting a 360Q right down the middle. Have the lenses cut at a glass shop, hold them in place with silicone... I've thought it through. I'd chop the reflector, gate -- everything. If nothing else, it would be a cool visual demonstration piece for showing the basic principles of ellipsoidal fixtures. 
I could also play that game where I pretend that my stage light has somehow melted itself halfway in to the floor. I just need some dried silver paint to look like a puddle of molten aluminum. Boy, that would never get old. 

Beautiful lights Ship! I'll bet those pass the Wife Acceptance Factor!


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## ship (Nov 30, 2011)

Les said:


> Time to get out the lathe. I'm gonna turn me a 360Q!



Made a 1/4" mistake in re-doubling the math on the box spot - don’t bench focus in already done the spacer and doing it a second time later. Second one will work properly. Fun project and Wifie won’t let it leave the house in liking it.

Bunch light - took the dimensions off a 1Kw large Olivalitte lamp fixture I have in making it larger in depth than this version will have been. Rounded edges and overall look is more an artistic take on it than realistic factual fixture. Same concept but in this case in following Fuch’s it was more for expiation during a tour to students purposes.

Never gonna find an actual bunch light and if board at work we might make some within the specs to add to the museum - lots of versions I would like to create, more about explaining purposes for how 1910 was so important for the nitrogen gas addition to the before that 100w max wattage vacuum tube lamp. (Thus a bunch of them. Had for filament sources bunch lights, boarders, flood, spot, box spot and PC fixture to choose from back than.) Bunch lights if not by WWI, by at least WWII were I think recycled and now gone. Doubt anyone can find a real example - even if in the books. Faced with that, the “Stage Lighting” manual in how to build one = expiation and even if it wouldn’t be stained for other than display purposes, it more fits given it is now display for museum.

That was a fun project also - both on my list to build again once I get a chance. Too many old lights to restore at the moment for that chance.

On other projects, did start making a few Cyberlight 2.0 oak fixtures last year. I’m not a moving light guy and while I had color changing MR-16 source and even circuit board and mirror done... didn’t work out wall given the spring retracting solenoid I chose for the project. Still working on them and might abandon the whole inspection mirror moving mirror concept in making it at least function - still in the works. Once close to done is scaling the Cyber 2.0 graphics onto the oak fixture. Posted before about this project.

Yea.. Half coupler on it - bigger shame is out of room on a 70' pipe with other gear on stands that there at 16" on center above and below hung there is no room to hang it or a stock pile of other gear. Just added a PAR 38 above to the hang - room for it. $20.00 for a soup can Par 38 fixture that is original from the 60's in home build fixture. Even has the lumber yard sticker the yoke was bought from on it’s yoke. True antique from the 60's in prime condition. Need more room to display the gear - after that, less concerned about clamps in doing accurate where possible but in ready to go on a show and rigged for hang... I’m mostly good in presentation.

Nothing like building from scratch out of lumber - studying and figuring out the cooling vent system as Fuch’s very well lays out, and than making one. Not an easy project for students though - making it well is expert level - plus the heat shielding is very expensive.

Could learn a lot more on fixture theory in having them service call current gear, than old gear and learning the details and concepts in advancement. Also that theory bench focus once thought done. Slave labor is good thing in me at times getting people in to work on their own gear and learn from in doing so.

Splitting a 360Q down the center would be really cool - I would go fiber abrasive grinder wheel, but do show pictures. Already burned out and replaced brushes on many the Dremmel tool - at work even bought an industrial Dremmel like tool with more power due to how many I have burned out. Careful with them in often if what you want to do, a more powerful tool might do for the bulk of the work.

Good to inspire concepts in the industry - we all have a responsibility to inspire, and when board to challenge ourselves. As above with my lumber fixtures... concepts always been out there, where is your’s in stuff to do when board?


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## Les (Nov 30, 2011)

ship said:


> Splitting a 360Q down the center would be really cool - I would go fiber abrasive grinder wheel, but do show pictures. Already burned out and replaced brushes on many the Dremmel tool - at work even bought an industrial Dremmel like tool with more power due to how many I have burned out. Careful with them in often if what you want to do, a more powerful tool might do for the bulk of the work.



That sounds like a go ahead! Watch this space for a 360Q cross section! My dad is a pipe fitter/welder. I bet I can coerce him in to helping me with this.

Among my projects:
-Finishing touches (sockets, shutters, cleaning) on otherwise mint brown 6x9 360Q's (5 total, one will not be cut apart!  )

-Still needing to get started on my 6 inkies. They seem to work fine other than one missing lamp, but I'm still going to rewire them. A friend used them mounted on the lip of the apron for MacBeth. They worked very well and cast some dramatic shadows which was exactly what he wanted. 

-Have about 4 x 8' sections and 2 x 5' sections of old A-lamp striplight. All roundels (plain non-spread RGBAW) are present and in perfect condition. They were designed to be continuous, so they are open-ended. I am planning on having a metal shop brake me some end caps and I will rewire them for 5 circuit with I/O pigtails. Not to mention hanging irons. Still not sure how to rid the socket terminals of the copious amount of solder helping hold the leads on (why'd they do that? I've seen this on all striplights I've serviced - why not just ring terminals?). Hopefully it doesn't render the current sockets useless. These are asbestos wired, so proper precautions will be followed.

-Around 12' of HUB R40 strips, 3 circuit. They are portable strips and need no metal work. Two are 4.5' and one is 3' so they are good, compact units. They just need a rewire and possibly some new Leviton 9885 porcelain sockets.

Lots to do to keep me busy!


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## ship (Nov 30, 2011)

Good blow torch on the old solder, protection and air blower - soldering iron won't do it. Did it because they didn't have ring terminals, it worked well and still works. Some of the screws in the socket might not be designed to get unscrewed as a further note in not attempting to over stress the screws in the terminals if not moving easily beyond a point. Worked on a few this past summer.

Dremmel good tool both for the sockets and terminals on them - don't forget to treat what ever bright work you polish up.

Finally, if enamel A-Lamp reflectors... Rust-Oleum #7881 Appliance Epoxy works really really well in touch up, but it's also really messy and sticky afterwards. Your work area is going to be a real mess after using it, but it is a great product to use. 

Have fun with them - mine were like 8' long and currently at work I'm doing the more normal 6-cell Altman types with RSC lamps in feeling your pain. Swore off older cyc light styles after my last working on them. Only like 17 more to go before I can sware off cyc lights in general for a while more at least before I get back to the Colortran cyc's that are worse yet by way of aluminum construction metal fatigue. Long story and long term project. So don't like working on cyc lights.


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## ship (Dec 1, 2011)

Remember that if splitting apart a fixture - you don't have to split all things including the lenses. As long as you can see, not all has to be split in half. Awaiting this great thing done in perhaps seeing it work (perhaps with baffles needed) but still in seeing with say some haze the optics of the light in a way not seen before.

Perhaps as a concept to consider a little more than 1/3 cut away in doing so. Somewhere between 1/2 and 1/3 might work best for example and in seeing it in a structural way for making it work.


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## Les (Dec 2, 2011)

Exactly what I was thinking on the 1/3 split! I hope to pick through my storage unit this weekend. I have quite a few bell housings and lens tubes laying around, as well as some chipped lenses and partially burned reflectors I can use. I should have enough to build a pretty decent and functional demo unit!


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