# Entertainment Engineering?



## Quillons (Jun 30, 2017)

Long time lurker; I finally decided to make an account!

I'm currently in engineering school, about two years away from a bachelor's in mechanical engineering and I plan on minoring in explosives engineering (mostly fireworks with some 'let's blow up a rock' on the side).

Eventually I would like to work at companies like Tait or Hudson Scenic, working on large automation pieces or structural analysis for stages.

What are some of the other big entertainment companies out there? I've realized recently that, compared to most of the engineering majors, I can only name a few big companies in my industry. How about current groups/websites/forums for entertainment engineering? I searched ControlBooth (going back 4ish years) and checked out the links people mentioned, but they were all dead.

Any less-obvious ways to improve my skills, so that I have both the entertainment experience and the engineering experience? I graduated from a technical theatre conservatory a few years ago, and work for the campus theatre department (which does not offer a major and operates as a small road house) so I have a background in theatre. I was thinking about hanging out more on this site in the scenery forum and seeing what I can pick up.

Industry opinions on becoming a PE? I used the thread on here to write a report on the Ringling Brothers accident and someone mentioned that having a PE sign off on rigging systems was becoming more common. How common is it?

Thank you for any help!


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## BillConnerFASTC (Jun 30, 2017)

There are a number of manufactures that hire people with a technical theatre understanding and engineering training. Sounding like you lean to the structural and mechanical side, besides the two you mention Wenger/Clancy, Thern, and ETC all are involved in this kind of work in this country.

As far as sealed drawings, I and I believe many of my theatre consulting colleagues specify that rigging shop drawings be sealed. This is usually done by a few independent structural engineering companies. http://schaefer-inc.com/esg-is-now-schaefer/ , http://clarkreder.com/entertainment/ , and Steve Walker, a sole practicioner, http://www.canandaiguachamber.com/list/member/steve-a-walker-associates-1018 are all ones I know, but there are more.


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## Protech (Jun 30, 2017)

Hi Quillons,

We design and manufacture stage machinery and automation equipment including counterweight rigging, hoists & controls, platform lifts, automated and variable acoustics, etc. A few others you can check out are Texas Scenic/PDO, Stagecraft Industries (who also has a rep on CB @Van), Tiffin Scenic Studios, Peter Albrect Company, InterAmerica Stage, iWeiss, and a number of other great companies I'm sure I am forgetting. There are also a number of system integrators and dealers who provide value added service such as engineering, in addition to third party engineering firms (we work with ESG and CR, who Mr. Conner mentioned).

We just recently brought on a mechanical engineer that has a similar background, as well as an engineering intern. The positions are currently filled, but If you PM me your email address I can send you the infopacket for the job. It should answer a number of your questions and might provide some insight for your career growth path. I'd also be happy to answer any questions you might have.

During our last round of hiring we received a number of applications from UNLV's Entertainment Engineering program. I'm really excited for its future and spoke with quite a few students in the program. Unfortunately the hands on engineering (drawing in CAD, performing stress/strain calcs, etc) wasn't as strong as what we would have liked to see for this particular position, but I understand they are moving it more in that direction.

Designing and engineering this equipment has some unique challenges, but its rewarding and its a lot of fun.

edited for typos... not enough coffee today.


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## Quillons (Jun 30, 2017)

Thanks Mr. Conner- now I've got weekend reading from the Schaefer site!

Thanks Protech- I'll send you that PM! I seriously considered the UNLV program but I never saw that it was ABET accredited, which I decided was important for me. However I do agree that that program is one to keep an eye on. I've also seen a few entertainment engineering minors at various schools.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Jun 30, 2017)

Just a thought - go to LDI this fall. Most of these potential employers will be there - attending if not exhibiting.


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## Quillons (Jun 30, 2017)

I've looked at LDI before and it does sound awesome. This year it's also the week before Thanksgiving break and that week will probably be a pretty big test wee... It's on the weekend too. Huh. Thanks for making me look that up, I might try and make it.


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## porkchop (Jun 30, 2017)

Creative Conners seems to be growing and might be worth looking into. McLaren Engineering and Eilon Engineering are both large engineering firms that have reasonably large entertainment interest. Several rigging systems I've worked with in Vegas went to McLaren for a PE stamp.

As far as school goes:

pay attention to your control systems classes. The back end of a lot of automation systems is based on a significant portion of that information.
Take the FE while you're still in school and the information is fresh. If a PE becomes important to your career then that need will become evident while you're getting the necessary years experience.
If you can get your hands on a PLC that is programmed in ladder logic spend some time understanding what's going on. There aren't many books or classes on ladder logic out there, but it is the building block of many more complex automation control techniques.


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## themuzicman (Jul 2, 2017)

porkchop said:


> Creative Conners seems to be growing and might be worth looking into. McLaren Engineering and Eilon Engineering are both large engineering firms that have reasonably large entertainment interest. Several rigging systems I've worked with in Vegas went to McLaren for a PE stamp.



McLaren also does a fair bit of entertainment stuff in NYC, and have been involved in a number of renovations on Broadway theaters. They also consult on a lot of municipal entertainment structures for the city. I've gone to them for consulting on a few projects and they are great.


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## Footer (Jul 3, 2017)

Adirondack scenic up by me... they do a ton of theme park stuff and would love more trained engineers.... there are just come to the northeast... you can't throw a rock and not hit a scene shop.


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## Quillons (Jul 3, 2017)

Porkchop- how deep would you recommend going into PLC's? My school library does actually have a few books on PLC's and I think I found a good introduction, but I put back the books that had bizarre-looking graphs.
Themuzicman- I didn't realize how much entertainment stuff McLauren does. They already recruit at my school; I guess I'll talk to them more at the next career fair. Thanks!
Footer- Theme park stuff! I've wondered who does this! Last semester we occasionally did "How fast does the roller coaster car have to be going to not fall off the top of the loop?" And then I sometimes look at roller coasters and wonder just how many pieces it was in when it was transported from a shop... I wouldn't have guessed that they do a bunch of stuff though, just looking at their website. Thank you! And yeah, it sounds like I'm either going to end up in the Northeast somewhere, or in Las Vegas. But either way, I'll end up working on fun stuff!


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## TuckerD (Jul 3, 2017)

Wow, so many great replies in this thread. 

A friend of mine was offered an internship at McLaren Engineering Group's entertainment division this summer. I met her last summer when she was doing a mechanical engineering internship at Electronic Theatre Controls. As so many others have said, yes! there are a lot of great opportunities as an engineer in the entertainment industry. Even if you chose to work more on the production side of the industry than on the development side, your engineering skills will put you loads ahead of people who are just starting their careers. It gives you some of the necessary thinking and problem solving tools that technicians / designers / etc. often need and end up calling support for. 

Personally, I work as a software engineer for VER on some of their proprietary LED display technology that is used all over the world. We have a full machine shop along with mechanical / structural engineers who help design custom components for some of our complex installations. I wish I could say more about what some of the work they are doing today is, but some of it is still unannounced projects and the rest is all beyond my scope of knowledge as a software engineer. 

Anyway, Good luck with everything and school. Hope to see you around CB more. I'm happy to answer any questions I can or help you try to find the right industry connections. I've written quite a bit about my experiences as a student trying to find a job as an engineer in the theatre industry. It mostly boiled down to professional networking and trying to meet the right people (And for me that started right here on ControlBooth!) Good luck, I'm happy to chat more!


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## RonHebbard (Jul 3, 2017)

porkchop said:


> Creative Conners seems to be growing and might be worth looking into. McLaren Engineering and Eilon Engineering are both large engineering firms that have reasonably large entertainment interest. Several rigging systems I've worked with in Vegas went to McLaren for a PE stamp.
> 
> As far as school goes:
> 
> ...


 @porkchop Brett, who engineered 'Show In The Sky' or 'Parade In The Sky', whichever it was called at Las Vegas's Rio? That was sure an interesting collection of structural, mechanical and electrical engineering all creatively put together in one place. Any production running for 16 consecutive years in 'Vegas had to be doing something right. When I was working in 'Vegas, I spent as much free time as I could muster mostly staring up at the ceiling waiting for it to open and reveal that massive overhead track switch. Most folks were watching the show. This weird old geezer would stand there leaning against a wall staring at the place where I knew it would momentarily open. To me, it was worth investing 20 minutes of my time for a 10 second glimpse of the track switch. To me, that was the most impressive aspect of the rig, followed closely by the float storage round house and the funny little float that ran around the track checking out and chatting up the patrons. @Quillons You got me. I had to Google your pseudonym to satisfy my curiosity. @TuckerD good to see you posting again / still.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.


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## TuckerD (Jul 3, 2017)

Thanks Rob. I try to catch these thread's when I can. Unfortunately I'm not volunteering for as much production work these days, and professionally I am working more with video play back (LED walls) than I am with what is traditionally considered 'lighting'. As such, there is much less content for me to respond to. None the less, I still love keeping up with CB when I can. It was such an influential tool in my professional development and I'd like to see that continue for others as well.


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## RonHebbard (Jul 3, 2017)

TuckerD said:


> Thanks Rob.


*Who's Rob?*
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.


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## RonHebbard (Jul 4, 2017)

Quillons said:


> Long time lurker; I finally decided to make an account!
> 
> I'm currently in engineering school, about two years away from a bachelor's in mechanical engineering and I plan on minoring in explosives engineering (mostly fireworks with some 'let's blow up a rock' on the side).
> 
> ...


 @Quillons You would've enjoyed the structural and mechanical engineering on the four full blown productions of Sunset Boulevard. [Los Angeles, Broadway, Toronto and Vancouver]
Here's a quick description to whet your interest:
The two story mansion had a raked floor and large, sweeping, staircase.
The entire two story mansion flew out of sight.
Not only did the mansion fly out of sight, it also tracked up and down stage when in on the deck *AND* while hovering overhead during a scene simultaneously played on and below the mansion.
*The mansion weighed 40,000 pounds / 20 tons.*
The mansion was counter-balanced by another 40,000 pounds / 20 tons for a total of 80,000 pounds / 40 tons of flown weight *supported from the grid.*
Basically what Feller Precision were doing was flying the world's largest drawer slides and the mansion was the drawer.
Housed within the raked floor were the equivalent of at least three light pipes to illuminate scenes played on the deck when the mansion was flown out.
Two levels of grid were added to each of the theatres above their primary grids with the 11,000 pound 'On the road' scene automated fly piece and the 14,000 pound 'pool surround' flown from the secondary grid and the mansion and its counterweights supported from the tertiary grid. The mansion flew on six 1.125" aircraft cables, three on each side plus twelve enormous sheaves, three on each side and six above the counterweights. The producers had Los Angeles' 'On the road' piece built by the low bidder and had to invest a great deal of overtime to get it to fly and function for the L.A. production. They spent more money and paid my employer's price to build the Broadway version of the 'On the Road' fly piece. We were given a three day window in their Broadway production schedule to load our piece in, assemble, fly and fully test its automated elements. Time is money and you can't buy time. We were in, assembled, flown, tested the automation and had only a handful of lighting circuits remaining to be flashed at the end of our first eight hour day. We were fully complete within the first two hours of our second day. To say they were pleased would be an understatement as we'd just effectively bought them 14 hours of Broadway load-in time and saved them money to boot. The four of us who accompanied the piece found ourselves with time to burn in downtown New York. The other fellows went out to find bars and sushi seeking recommendations from the locals. Moi? I neither drink nor like sushi. I leapt at the opportunity to spend my time touring the theatre from the third grid to the basement. The fellow in charge of their load-in hung some credentials around my neck, told me to wear them at all times and who to return them to then hollered up to the fellow in charge of the grids instructing him to show me anything I wanted. I treasured my free time in their venue, asked questions and learned as much as I could. They don't teach some the techniques employed there in Yale or Harvard's technical theatre production courses. Months later, our shop was awarded the contract to build another 11.000 pound copy of the 'On the road' fly piece for Toronto. I accopanied the piece to its installation in North York, then went back to disassemble it. A couple of months later, I was flown to Vancouver to install it yet again.
With apologies for droning on (again). I could write paragraphs on how they flew the 'drawer slides' and how they transferred the support of all that weight down to bedrock / undisturbed soil. I suspect you'd have found much to interest you in the engineering of those productions. My shop-mates may have enjoyed some good sushi but I've never regretted the time I spent pouring over that theatre. I think it was the Minskoff but I could be incorrect. The theatre was three storys above grade in the heart of downtown New York.
*Edit:* I guess I should've concluded with how you motivate 40 tons to move, levitate and decelerate on cue.
The counter-weights were against the USC wall and centered on it.
Below the counterweight carriage, and firmly anchored to the deck, was a massive hydraulically powered winch. I'm pretty sketchy on the details of Feller's winch but I'll tell you what I can.
The drive shaft was about 4 to 6 inches in diameter, about 6 to 8 feet long and driven from both ends by a redundant pair of hydraulic drives coupled through a redundant pair of reduction gears. There's a name for reduction gear trains where the input and output shafts are physically in alignment and I can't remember the precise term. (Planetary something is coming to mind) 
Laterally centered on the shaft was a brake disc about 2 to 2.5 feet in diameter. A redundant pair of hydraulically clamped calipers grabbed the disc for stopping and locking. On either side of the disc brake were grooved drums driving aircraft cables to motivate the counter-weight carriage. At each end of the drive shaft were the in-line gear reducers and their hydraulic drives. It was built to motivate and lock its 40 ton load and appeared to have little problem doing so. The hydraulic pumps were in an acoustically treated room in the theatre's basement. The drive was essentially silent in operation.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.


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## josh88 (Jul 4, 2017)

Quillons said:


> Footer- Theme park stuff! I've wondered who does this!




Footer said:


> Adirondack scenic up by me... they do a ton of theme park stuff and would love more trained engineers.... there are just come to the northeast... you can't throw a rock and not hit a scene shop.



There are a lot of shops for sure. I happen to work with Adirondack's former charge artist, so a lot of people get around.


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## icewolf08 (Jul 5, 2017)

If you want to engineer the bleeding edge of stage technology, come play with us. IN the next couple years we will be doing a lot of hiring on the design and engineering side as management wants to double the size and output of the company in a very short amount of time. Oh, and LinkedIN just did a cool video about us.


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## RonHebbard (Jul 5, 2017)

icewolf08 said:


> If you want to engineer the bleeding edge of stage technology, come play with us. IN the next couple years we will be doing a lot of hiring on the design and engineering side as management wants to double the size and output of the company in a very short amount of time. Oh, and LinkedIN just did a cool video about us.


@Quillons Leanna, I'd give Mr. Weisman some serious consideration if I were you. I suspect you could easily do worse.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.


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## Ianboze (Jul 6, 2017)

@Quillons as an engineering graduate working in the entertainment industry , porkchop is correct 100% in saying take your FE it is good for life and is significantly harder to pass later. 

To answer another question about plc's if your school has industrial engineering look in that department. I took a plc class and it was focused on assembly line type stuff but the knowledged gained by learning the language of ladder logic was invaluable. If that isn't an option I would see if there is an emulator of some kind. You can get ladder logic software as a free download but it doesnt help if you can't actually run the code. 

I didn't see it mentioned yet but birket engineering in Florida is a big install entertainment comapny


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## RonHebbard (Jul 7, 2017)

Ianboze said:


> @Quillons as an engineering graduate working in the entertainment industry , porkchop is correct 100% in saying take your FE it is good for life and is significantly harder to pass later.
> 
> To answer another question about plc's if your school has industrial engineering look in that department. I took a plc class and it was focused on assembly line type stuff but the knowledged gained by learning the language of ladder logic was invaluable. If that isn't an option I would see if there is an emulator of some kind. You can get ladder logic software as a free download but it doesnt help if you can't actually run the code.
> 
> I didn't see it mentioned yet but birket engineering in Florida is a big install entertainment comapny


@Quillons @porkchop @Ianboze Please educate me, what's an "FE"? I'm assuming it's not a degree in Feminine Engineering. 
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.


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## porkchop (Jul 7, 2017)

The FE is the Fundamentals of Engineering test that everyone in the US that is close to or has graduated with a degree in engineering has the option to take (some schools require it for graduation). It's a general engineering test that you only have to take once ever (assuming you pass) meant to check that you have some breadth to go with your mastery of the specifics of your discipline. Once a person passes the FE and works for at least 4 years under a licenced Professional Engineer they can take the PE (Principles and Practice of Engineering test) that is specific to just their discipline. Unlike the FE which works country wide the PE is state specific. and overseen by the state licensing board. Passing your state's PE test and being accepted for licensure makes a person a professional engineer that allows them to stamp drawings and give expert testimony and those kinds of things. Being a licenced professional also requires renewal hours and in some states might require annual fees. 
Unlike the legal standard of who can practice engineering in Canada, this whole system is somewhat voluntary in the US. A person can graduate with an engineering degree, take nether test, and work in engineering successfully and legally for the rest of their career. Companies that work closely with the government tend to demand a PE. Other companies just want someone on the staff that is licenced, but don't worry too much about having all their employees licenced. Others don't seem to care much at all. That's why for many recent grads it makes sense to take the one time only, good anywhere FE while the information is fresh during or shortly after college, but to check with current and future employers before perusing the PE.


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## Ianboze (Jul 7, 2017)

RonHebbard said:


> @Quillons @porkchop @Ianboze Please educate me, what's an "FE"? I'm assuming it's not a degree in Feminine Engineering.
> Toodleoo!
> Ron Hebbard.



Ron, sure. The FE is the fundamentals of engineering exam. When an aspiring engineering completes there coursework they can sit for the exam and that basically qualifies them to start apprenticing to meet the experience requirement to sit for the PE which is the principals and practice of engineering exam. Its not that different from the process medical students take on the road to becoming a doctor 

Most states don't even let people call themselves engineers until they have passed the PE


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## sk8rsdad (Jul 7, 2017)

FE is the Fundamentals of Engineering exam. It's one of the paths to becoming a professional licensed engineer in the U.S.A. Ontario has similar exams, but they are typically avoidable if the applicant is a graduate of an accredited engineering program. Things keep evolving but the only post-grad exam I had to write was on ethics and contract law.

sk8rsdad, P.Eng


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## Quillons (Jul 7, 2017)

Even with different time zones, y'all get up early.


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## RonHebbard (Jul 7, 2017)

sk8rsdad said:


> FE is the Fundamentals of Engineering exam. It's one of the paths to becoming a professional licensed engineer in the U.S.A. Ontario has similar exams, but they are typically avoidable if the applicant is a graduate of an accredited engineering program. Things keep evolving but the only post-grad exam I had to write was on ethics and contract law.
> 
> sk8rsdad, P.Eng


@sk8rsdad Thanks for your Canadian perspective and, if I may ask, what manner of P. Eng are you?
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.


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## sk8rsdad (Jul 7, 2017)

A P.Eng doesn't actually have any specific discipline associated with it. I don't pretend to be a practicing professional engineer, having never used my stamp. I graduated with a B.A.Sc (Electrical Engineering) with a minor in Management Science.


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## gafftaper (Jul 20, 2017)

Quillons said:


> I've looked at LDI before and it does sound awesome. This year it's also the week before Thanksgiving break and that week will probably be a pretty big test wee... It's on the weekend too. Huh. Thanks for making me look that up, I might try and make it.


I recommend USITT as well. While it's a smaller, there are many there to recruit and hire. 

Also don't forget Disney or Cirque Du Soleil as possible employers.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Jul 20, 2017)

sk8rsdad said:


> A P.Eng doesn't actually have any specific discipline associated with it. I don't pretend to be a practicing professional engineer, having never used my stamp. I graduated with a B.A.Sc (Electrical Engineering) with a minor in Management Science.


That's how I interpret it for US. Architects and engineers are all "registered design professionals" and with some exceptions, all can design any aspect of a building and seal drawings - if they self determined to be qualified to do so. Woe be to the one that oversteps their expertise and gets caught - probably career ender -so you don't very often have an architect seal the electrical drawings a theatre, but they might for a multi-family building or restaurant. And engineers do sometimes design their own utility buildings - like a building for switch gear or a boiler.


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