# UNLV's EED program



## mbrown3039 (Sep 12, 2018)

As the recently elected Chair for the program's Advisory Board, I am burning up a few electrons to let everyone know that a 4-year degree in the technical theater arts is available from UNLV. The Entertainment Engineering and Design program is a joint venture between the Colleges of Fine Arts and Engineering and serves to prepare students for a career in designing, installing and/or operating entertainment related equipment (audio, video, lighting and automation included). Although only a few years old, we’re currently considered among the top three programs for this field in the United States, perhaps because we have the best lab in the world: the Las Vegas Strip.

We have graduates working for American Ninja Warrior, Cirque, Disney, Flying By Foy and Tait Towers, among others. We are always looking for students who want to challenge themselves to become the future leaders of the entertainment technology field; if that's you, more information on the program can be found here, or you can PM me if you like.

Also, if you're an industry professional who is going to be in Vegas and you think you have valuable insights and/or experiences to share with the students, we have a Friday morning lecture for just that purpose. PM me for particulars and available dates. Mike


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## porkchop (Sep 12, 2018)

I have thoughts............ and I'm trying to be as nice about them as possible.....

How many schools are there that UNLV is competing with to become "among the top three programs for this field in the United States". Who created this list and are there notable institutions that UNLV is ranked similar to or above?

I think the idea of the program is a great one, but my experience with the students that come out of it are generally not living up to the project's goals.


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## mbrown3039 (Sep 12, 2018)

porkchop said:


> I have thoughts............ and I'm trying to be as nice about them as possible.....
> 
> How many schools are there that UNLV is competing with to become "among the top three programs for this field in the United States". Who created this list and are there notable institutions that UNLV is ranked similar to or above?
> 
> I think the idea of the program is a great one, but my experience with the students that come out of it are generally not living up to the project's goals.



I'm not sure whom you hired or for what position/s, but the goals of the program are to graduate students who have a firm understanding of engineering principles such that they can go out and design, install and/or operate advanced entertainment systems. In addition to basic stagecraft, we would expect them to have a firm grasp on the basics of EE and ME as well physics and calculus. Some of their time in the program includes working on FA productions, so they should also be comfortable on a stage and with set construction/set strike, load in/out, stage electrical and audio, etc. Of course each student will be better at some things than other, and some of our students gravitate more towards computer/graphic entertainment fields than "traditional" career paths (more on that here ).

To answer your initial questions: There are about a dozen schools nationwide offering some sort of degree related to being an entertainment "techie." I say "some sort" because some school's programs (Purdue, for example) are 100% geared toward theatrical productions. Others focus a bit more on touring while others are more generalists. None of them are ABET-accredited -- UNLV will be the first, within two years if all goes as planned. Earlier this year, the first-ever academic conference for administrators and faculty of this type of program was held in Chicago -- a survey was handed out to the attendees which asked which program they felt was the best -- in what was essentially a three-way tie, UNLV was ranked alongside Carnegie Mellon and UNC School of the Arts. Although we still have a lot to learn (and teach!) and a lot of growing ahead of us, I take great comfort in pride in knowing that our program is so well regarded by our peers.

Of course, the proof is in the pudding: the more high-caliber graduates we produce who end up working in the industry on successful productions, authoring relevant and well-regarded publications and being awarded patents and Tonys and Oscars and Emmys and such while also having the respect of their peers the less I'll have to talk about the program -- it will just speak for itself. Mike


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## porkchop (Sep 12, 2018)

mbrown3039 said:


> I'm not sure whom you hired or for what position/s, but the goals of the program are to graduate students who have a firm understanding of engineering principles such that they can go out and design, install and/or operate advanced entertainment systems. In addition to basic stagecraft, we would expect them to have a firm grasp on the basics of EE and ME as well physics and calculus. Some of their time in the program includes working on FA productions, so they should also be comfortable on a stage and with set construction/set strike, load in/out, stage electrical and audio, etc. Of course each student will be better at some things than other, and some of our students gravitate more towards computer/graphic entertainment fields than "traditional" career paths (more on that here ).
> 
> To answer your initial questions: There are about a dozen schools nationwide offering some sort of degree related to being an entertainment "techie." I say "some sort" because some school's programs (Purdue, for example) are 100% geared toward theatrical productions. Others focus a bit more on touring while others are more generalists. None of them are ABET-accredited -- UNLV will be the first, within two years if all goes as planned. Earlier this year, the first-ever academic conference for administrators and faculty of this type of program was held in Chicago -- a survey was handed out to the attendees which asked which program they felt was the best -- in what was essentially a three-way tie, UNLV was ranked alongside Carnegie Mellon and UNC School of the Arts. Although we still have a lot to learn (and teach!) and a lot of growing ahead of us, I take great comfort in pride in knowing that our program is so well regarded by our peers.
> 
> Of course, the proof is in the pudding: the more high-caliber graduates we produce who end up working in the industry on successful productions, authoring relevant and well-regarded publications and being awarded patents and Tonys and Oscars and Emmys and such while also having the respect of their peers the less I'll have to talk about the program -- it will just speak for itself. Mike



I've been on campus with your students as well as working along side them on the strip for most of the time the program has been in existence. As engineers I find your students to be on par with what the other engineering disciplines at UNLV are producing. It is the stagecraft that I have felt to be lacking. 

Every time I write this with more detail I feel like I'm being unnecessarily mean or condescending. Your program has good goals and certainly is in the right city for the target industry. A motivated student could make good use of their time there, but that is not how I would describe the average college student.


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## mbrown3039 (Sep 13, 2018)

Thanks for the feedback. We are currently in the process of developing two separate tracks -- one for the more engineering-oriented person (the designer/specifier type of person) and another for the more hands-on person (the installer/operator) and I think, over time, that may be one of the core distinctions. But, again, not every type of entertainment involves a stage (in the literal sense), so it is entirely possible for a student of this major to not know how to tie a sheepshank (pun intended). mike


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## RonHebbard (Sep 13, 2018)

mbrown3039 said:


> Thanks for the feedback. We are currently in the process of developing two separate tracks -- one for the more engineering-oriented person (the designer/specifier type of person) and another for the more hands-on person (the installer/operator) and I think, over time, that may be one of the core distinctions. But, again, not every type of entertainment involves a stage (in the literal sense), so it is entirely possible for a student of this major to not know how to tie a sheepshank (pun intended). mike


O.K. *@mbrown3039* but they'd better knot know how to tie a clove hitch and a bowline. Knot know or not no, some combination there of. @porkchop *Thoughts?*
Toodleoo! 
Ron Hebbard


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## BillConnerFASTC (Sep 13, 2018)

Should this thread be in the "CB Classifieds" forum?


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## mbrown3039 (Sep 13, 2018)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> Should this thread be in the "CB Classifieds" forum?



How so..? This is a post about the availability of a (soon-to-be accredited) college degree in Entertainment Technology Design, not about "Posting an Item for Sale, For Trade, or Wanted..." -- seems like Education is the perfect forum for it. Am I wrong? M


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## BillConnerFASTC (Sep 13, 2018)

It feels a little like you are selling something, and unless I misunderstand you work for the company offering this product. Your first post clearly is a sales pitch.


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## mbrown3039 (Sep 13, 2018)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> It feels a little like you are selling something, and unless I misunderstand you work for the company offering this product. Your first post clearly is a sales pitch.



Apologies for not being clear about my position: I am a volunteer (as are all members of the Advisory Board, per the bylaws) and receive no compensation of any kind. However, we do get free parking and free sandwiches at our meetings, lol. Mike

PS: UNLV is the University of Nevada Las Vegas, a public university within the Nevada State Higher Education system. m


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## BillConnerFASTC (Sep 13, 2018)

I'm familiar with it, have seen an event there, and IIRC some of my classmates use to work there or maybe still do. "Chair of advisory board" sounded like a university staff position. I guess you get a pass as a volunteer. Do you"represent" UNLV or are you just saying "by the way". I don't know the CB policy details. Still don't quite see how this is much different than want ads, that are to be in the classifieds.


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## ruinexplorer (Sep 13, 2018)

I approve of this being in the education forum, not classifieds. 

I had limited connection when the program began as I helped get some donations. This spring, I advised a class on projection design as well as doing a lecture for the class on interactive projection. Yes, there was a difference in students, some with a lot more aptitude, it that has more to do with the student than the program. Also, there is a difference between this program and the theater program.

I have given the department my opinion on how I feel the program should run. I do have high hopes for where it will go because of who they have chosen to work with. They do seem to be looking to the community for guidance to make it what is needed to make it a successful program as opposed to believing what they feel that what is needed. 

Please keep the program growing so that we will have qualified entry level technicians.


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## mbrown3039 (Sep 14, 2018)

Had a great time earlier today at the Friday morning lecture (this is the same "open" lecture slot that I think would be a good fit for you the next time you're in Vegas, #BillConnerFASTC ) introducing the Advisory Board and allowing the students to give me feedback (to relay to the University) about what's working/what's not working within the program. More than one person mentioned your projection lecture/class, #ruinexplorer and asked for more of the same in all the core disciplines...thanks for what you've done so far, don't be surprised when we come calling again, lol. mike


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## TuckerD (Sep 17, 2018)

Certainly sounds like a good program. And of course, @ruinexplorer is a great person to have on board as a guest / advisor


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## Protech (Sep 17, 2018)

Hi Mike,

As a local employer with some experience with your students I would also be interested in sharing my thoughts. Sorry that I did not catch this sooner (my fault for not visiting CB often enough!)


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## mbrown3039 (Sep 18, 2018)

Protech said:


> Hi Mike,
> 
> As a local employer with some experience with your students I would also be interested in sharing my thoughts. Sorry that I did not catch this sooner (my fault for not visiting CB often enough!)



Thanks. The next Advisory Board general meeting will be on October 23rd on campus. This is a good opportunity to hear what the AB is up to (which has some impact on the program itself) as well as meet the program advisors (there are two: one from the School of Fine Arts and the other from the School of Engineering) -- they maintain the Friday morning guest lecturer schedule. mike


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## ruinexplorer (Sep 19, 2018)

Isn't that LDI weekend?


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## mbrown3039 (Sep 19, 2018)

ruinexplorer said:


> Isn't that LDI weekend?



No, it's the Tuesday after LDI. M


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## Quillons (Sep 19, 2018)

Question on your (future) accreditation (hopefully, congrats!): why wait? UNLV was on my list of potential schools a couple of years ago, but I wanted an ABET-accredited program. UNLV at the time was eligible for accreditation (there were graduates), but it was not. Has something changed? Why wait a few more years? 
Also, any plans for a future graduate program?


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## mbrown3039 (Sep 19, 2018)

Quillons said:


> Question on your (future) accreditation (hopefully, congrats!): why wait? UNLV was on my list of potential schools a couple of years ago, but I wanted an ABET-accredited program. UNLV at the time was eligible for accreditation (there were graduates), but it was not. Has something changed? Why wait a few more years?
> Also, any plans for a future graduate program?



It's not us, it's them.  The ABET process has a certain cadence to it and we have to work on their schedule. In the natural rotation of things, two years is the soonest possible (it's a 5-year process to become accredited -- our process began three years ago).

Currently, all of our graduate students are either FA grads or choose a traditional engineering discipllne (mechanical, electrical, etc.) for their grad work. Mike


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## porkchop (Sep 19, 2018)

Quillons said:


> Question on your (future) accreditation (hopefully, congrats!): why wait? UNLV was on my list of potential schools a couple of years ago, but I wanted an ABET-accredited program. UNLV at the time was eligible for accreditation (there were graduates), but it was not. Has something changed? Why wait a few more years?
> Also, any plans for a future graduate program?



Is there an ABET accredited entertainment program you know of? Most of the traditional engineering programs at UNLV are ABET accredited but to my knowledge currently Entertainment Engineering isn't an accredited discipline (yet at least).


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## mbrown3039 (Sep 19, 2018)

porkchop said:


> Is there an ABET accredited entertainment program you know of? Most of the traditional engineering programs at UNLV are ABET accredited but to my knowledge currently Entertainment Engineering isn't an accredited discipline (yet at least).



You are correct -- every Engineering major at UNLV is ABET-accredited except EED. There is no ABET-accredited program of this type (or similar) anywhere in the US. Mike


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## MNicolai (Sep 19, 2018)

Closest ones who are ABET are probably the schools with interdisciplinary programs like Purdue. Not sure there are many that are appealing to entertainment, though I believe some have a little "Choose your own adventure" flexibility.

I would be curious what the intended goal for these students is.

Are they pursuing licensures as Professional Engineers?
Will states even recognize this as an engineering discipline?
Will states offer reciprocity for this field of engineering? Even in the traditional engineering disciplines, applying for reciprocity across state lines is a colossal time investment in paperwork and having one's ducks in row and some state boards are pickier than others in what they will accept.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Sep 19, 2018)

MNicolai said:


> Closest ones who are ABET are probably the schools with interdisciplinary programs like Purdue. Not sure there are many that are appealing to entertainment, though I believe some have a little "Choose your own adventure" flexibility.
> 
> I would be curious what the intended goal for these students is.
> 
> ...



Good questions. There seem to be very few registered design professionals in the entertainment industry. I know few structural who work for manufacturers, and of course a few firms that have an expertise in entertainment technology - but not as the segment they work in. I don't know of any registered electrical engineers or mechanical who are near exclusive to entertainment technology.

I know among manufacturers, it clearly appears to be more successful to hire a theatre person and develop their engineering, than hire an engineer and try to develop their interest in, understanding of, and passion for theatre. I'd say same goes for consulting, though there are a few ee's who have transitioned from electrical engineering to theatre consulting (and practice as unregistered design professionals). To much variety in sales to know but I'd say most of the best started in theatre. Likewise - the people working in an organization that produces - I think the majority came from theatre training, not engineering.


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## derekleffew (Sep 19, 2018)

MNicolai said:


> I would be curious what the intended goal for these students is.


To be relegated to endlessly sweeping up cork, nearby.


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## Quillons (Sep 21, 2018)

porkchop said:


> Is there an ABET accredited entertainment program you know of?


Not that I was able to find. When I was looking at schools, I think Purdue had some sort of entertainment engineering minor, which appears to have transitioned into a Multidisciplinary Engineering major (ABET accredited) with a focus in Theatre Engineering. I did a quick look at ABET's website, searching for programs with "thea", "dram" or"enterta" in the name and I got no results.
To get a (somewhat) comparable education experience right now, a student needs to find an engineering degree (probably mechanical, civil, or electrical) at a school that has both engineering and theatre. Those schools tend to be larger universities, which generally means the engineering coursework would become more theoretical (labs are expensive) and the more money the theatre program has, the more competitive it tends to be. So it's a challenging mix of finding a large-enough school to have both science and art, but not too large that one becomes paper-pushing and the other out-of-reach.
Then once a student is in school, they might run out of time for extracurriculars/classes outside the degree. Engineering is hard, and if an engineer screws up, they might kill people. So the ABET-accredited programs (I think it's a requirement?) are pretty strict- think of a BFA conservatory program and a student trying to take engineering classes outside of that (never mind the prerequisites). My degree allows for two humanities electives and a communications elective, every other credit is already spoken for.


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## mbrown3039 (Sep 21, 2018)

Quillons said:


> Not that I was able to find. When I was looking at schools, I think Purdue had some sort of entertainment engineering minor, which appears to have transitioned into a Multidisciplinary Engineering major (ABET accredited) with a focus in Theatre Engineering. I did a quick look at ABET's website, searching for programs with "thea", "dram" or"enterta" in the name and I got no results.
> To get a (somewhat) comparable education experience right now, a student needs to find an engineering degree (probably mechanical, civil, or electrical) at a school that has both engineering and theatre. Those schools tend to be larger universities, which generally means the engineering coursework would become more theoretical (labs are expensive) and the more money the theatre program has, the more competitive it tends to be. So it's a challenging mix of finding a large-enough school to have both science and art, but not too large that one becomes paper-pushing and the other out-of-reach.
> Then once a student is in school, they might run out of time for extracurriculars/classes outside the degree. Engineering is hard, and if an engineer screws up, they might kill people. So the ABET-accredited programs (I think it's a requirement?) are pretty strict- think of a BFA conservatory program and a student trying to take engineering classes outside of that (never mind the prerequisites). My degree allows for two humanities electives and a communications elective, every other credit is already spoken for.



You hit the nail right on the head, and that is why we're looking at re-defining the two current tracks (and maybe add another) to allow for that "pure" engineer and the more "hands on" installer and/or operator. it's a tough rope act to balance without also turning it into some sort of 14-year "professional student" odyssey of an experience...mike


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## mbrown3039 (Sep 21, 2018)

derekleffew said:


> To be relegated to endlessly sweeping up cork, nearby.



Or you could be an Imagineer at Disney....or a Field Engineer for Tait....or work with pyro on the Strip...or a Flight Director for Foy....or the #2 designer at a consulting firm that currently has projects in NYC, Boston, DFW, Vegas, LA, Singapore, Manila and Macao.

But hey -- if your goal is to be the cork sweeper at Ka, we'll support you in that, too! Mike


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## mbrown3039 (Sep 24, 2018)

MNicolai said:


> Closest ones who are ABET are probably the schools with interdisciplinary programs like Purdue. Not sure there are many that are appealing to entertainment, though I believe some have a little "Choose your own adventure" flexibility.
> 
> I would be curious what the intended goal for these students is.
> 
> ...



Sorry for the delay in replying to this. I am not an engineer and wanted to check in with faculty for the correct answers to your questions.

Each student has their own goal, of course, but in regards to being PEs, the EED program in and of itself does not require it. Should they go on to grad work in one of the "traditional" engineering disciplines, then that changes. As far as we know, no state recognizes "entertainment engineering" as a discipline, but we will tackle that right after we get our ABET accreditation. And then we can worry about reciprocity, which is -- as you mentioned -- no easy feat, even among the traditional disciplines. Mike


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## cbrandt (Sep 25, 2018)

My degree (Entertainment and Theatre Technology) was structured exactly this way. It was a BFA from the theatre department, but had a heavy focus on engineering. You could focus on EE, ME, or CS as a minor component. This fit nicely with what I went to school intending to do, which was a major in ME, and a minor in theater technology.

My focus shifted, which is why I ended up without a major in ME, and this program accommodated this shift really nicely while still honoring the time and energy that went into my engineering classes. You may reach out to Michigan Technological University's Visual and Performing Arts Department to see how this has panned out for other students. I was a very early graduate out of the major program, so I'm not sure how it has evolved in the last 10 years or so.


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## MNicolai (Sep 25, 2018)

mbrown3039 said:


> Sorry for the delay in replying to this. I am not an engineer and wanted to check in with faculty for the correct answers to your questions.
> 
> Each student has their own goal, of course, but in regards to being PEs, the EED program in and of itself does not require it. Should they go on to grad work in one of the "traditional" engineering disciplines, then that changes. As far as we know, no state recognizes "entertainment engineering" as a discipline, but we will tackle that right after we get our ABET accreditation. And then we can worry about reciprocity, which is -- as you mentioned -- no easy feat, even among the traditional disciplines. Mike



Many engineering programs don't push students to pursue PE's, but if you are entering a role where it is required you will have the most success with the least pain getting your EIT immediately after college. Fast forward a couple years, your math and engineering skills get foggy and taking the exams is much harder.

The broader concern I have is areas of operation. There is a need for entertainment industry knowledgeable Professional Engineers, but our industry is such that people are commonly touring or moving around. Once you get your PE, you have very little flexibility to move around. In cases where the individual stays put but their engineered solutions go on tour, there are often state-specific rules delineating where a PE stamp is required for permanent structures vs structures assembled on-site, and not all states are consistent on what they require.

For context, my firm has offices in 4 states but to operate in all 50 we have a company wide database of 400 employees. If we are invited to join a project in Wyoming, we need to use PE's licensed in WY to be our Engineers of Records on those projects. Typically a structural PE, a mechanical PE, and an electrical PE. If we do not have someone on staff who fits that bill, we need to partner with local PE's who will bear that responsibility. Mind you, we are in the construction business not the entertainment business -- but that is how PE's navigate the various state rules.

From a practical standpoint, I don't expect these are insurmountable issues but if you are developing an engineering program for this industry then I would expect UNLV to represent those complexities to their prospective students as they decide whether to invest a lot of money to pursue a career path that may have some obstacles associated with it. I would also expect someone is engaging with your state engineering board on how to direct focus of this curriculum appropriately, either with the express intent that this can become PE track, or that it has no intention to be a PE track. Anything wishy washy in between seems like a disservice to students who are investing in educations that may or may not be preparing them for what they're expecting.


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## mbrown3039 (Sep 25, 2018)

MNicolai said:


> Many engineering programs don't push students to pursue PE's, but if you are entering a role where it is required you will have the most success with the least pain getting your EIT immediately after college. Fast forward a couple years, your math and engineering skills get foggy and taking the exams is much harder.
> 
> The broader concern I have is areas of operation. There is a need for entertainment industry knowledgeable Professional Engineers, but our industry is such that people are commonly touring or moving around. Once you get your PE, you have very little flexibility to move around. In cases where the individual stays put but their engineered solutions go on tour, there are often state-specific rules delineating where a PE stamp is required for permanent structures vs structures assembled on-site, and not all states are consistent on what they require.
> 
> ...



In the construction world (the world I live in the most), that scenario plays out here (in Nevada) all the time. A local architect and engineer/s must be the professionals "of record" for any construction project (or, at least, an firm with a local office and a Nevada-licensed professional -- it's not unusual to see an architecture or engineering firm open an office in Vegas for a year or two just for a specific project). M


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## KacyC (Sep 25, 2018)

Quillons said:


> To get a (somewhat) comparable education experience right now, a student needs to find an engineering degree (probably mechanical, civil, or electrical) at a school that has both engineering and theatre. Those schools tend to be larger universities, which generally means the engineering coursework would become more theoretical (labs are expensive) and the more money the theatre program has, the more competitive it tends to be. So it's a challenging mix of finding a large-enough school to have both science and art, but not too large that one becomes paper-pushing and the other out-of-reach.
> Then once a student is in school, they might run out of time for extracurriculars/classes outside the degree. Engineering is hard, and if an engineer screws up, they might kill people. So the ABET-accredited programs (I think it's a requirement?) are pretty strict- think of a BFA conservatory program and a student trying to take engineering classes outside of that (never mind the prerequisites). My degree allows for two humanities electives and a communications elective, every other credit is already spoken for.


It depends a lot on the program. I went to an ABET-accredited engineering program at a small liberal arts college and had plenty of opportunity to take electives outside engineering. I minored in theatre, and I could have had a double major had I chose a few different classes or stayed an extra semester. I did pass the FE exam. But to do that, I definitely had to create my own path. As a smaller school, I had a lot of support in doing that from both departments. It fit within their philosophy. I don’t think I would have been able to combine the two as I did had I gone to a large university. Of course, that was long before the Purdue and UNLV programs...


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## mbrown3039 (Sep 26, 2018)

Another great story of what an EED degree can lead to: https://www.unlv.edu/news/article/getting-game-tabitha-engle 

Cheers, M


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## mbrown3039 (Jun 19, 2019)

A long-overdue update on our 10-year peer review: two industry reviewers spent several days on campus looking over the program. They met with faculty, visited the facilities and also met with several members of the Advisory Board, as well as some local employers who frequently find interns/employees from within the EED ranks. In summary, their findings were as follows:

1. The course catalog is well thought out and relevant; they particularly liked that either track can be completed in four traditional years (i.e., if the student is FT spring and fall, then no summer work is needed);
2. Community support is strong and diverse; local internship and employment opportunities are a strong plus for the program;
3. Program growth is outpacing the program's facilities, and at an exponential rate; even though the program just moved into a new building, that building will be too small within a few semesters -- the school needs to invest construction dollars into the program (the NV State Legislature just approved the state's portion of the funds needed for a new Engineering building, so we're hopeful a portion of that building will be for the EED program).

All in all, we're pretty happy with the review we got. Everything they mentioned are tings we are actively working on already, although some (like a new building) might take a few days to sort out, lol. m


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