# What is with it and our venue and concerts?



## MillburyAuditorium (Jan 15, 2010)

Well, our Theatre's HVAC system is all automatic. There is no control panel anywhere and it is not hooked up to the schools. Basically, if the dimmers go above 10% on stage lighting, ie dimers 1-65, the air conditioning kicks in. As you can imagen it is quit chilly in there useally. Which is better then being hot..
BUT, for some reason, I do not know what it is with concerts..But everytime there s a band concert is is stiffling. One time it was so unbarable there was a unplanned intermission so we could shut off the stage lights and cool down a bit. 
Thing is, during things like 3 hour plays, its chilly as always. From the lighting desk I can always feel a breeze of cold air from the vent near me. Concerts, nope. Guess the AC doesnt like the music ;/


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## PeytonJr (Jan 16, 2010)

Are the concerts mainly horns or strings? It makes a huge difference. Also is there a difference in times that the concerts and plays are performed at? For instance, are the concerts on weekends when the HVAC system is off?


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## RickBoychuk (Jan 16, 2010)

Seems like it is not a technical theatre question, but a question that will be resolved by the HVAC company.


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## shiben (Jan 16, 2010)

Contact janitorial, and see if they can do something about it. Any HVAC unit at our entire college can be controlled via the internet, and your school might have a less sophisticated but similar situation, where the Janitors can monkey with the settings in some way, and fix it there.


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## MillburyAuditorium (Jan 16, 2010)

It is all Horns. 
Maybe there is just more people and more lights on and I haven't really noticed.

As far as controlling the HVAC, I made a typo, I do not think there is ANY heat in the room at all :/ But there is a huge AC unit..right on stage right on the ceiling, but anyways, There is no way to control the unit at all. Its hooked up to the dimmer computer. Any dimmer except house lights are on the AC kicks in. Maybe we could get on the ladder and see if there is a control panel on the unit. But it's pretty high.
The one concert were people had to leave I mentioned we did get a custodian in there because I did not know it had to do with the dimmers at that time and he said that he had no clue how to turn it on.


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## Les (Jan 16, 2010)

MillburyAuditorium said:


> Its hooked up to the dimmer computer.



How do you know this and are you sure? 

..Is it even possible? Onboard HVAC control interface is not something I have seen touted on the Sensor (or any other) rack. Seems that a system like this would cause too many unnecessary on/off cycles for the HVAC.

The HVAC system is assigned to keep the room at a certain temperature. It could be that the returns are over or around the stage, and it just so happens that when you turn on any stage lights, it heats the air just enough to cause the HVAC to ask for more A/C.

From what I have read about your space, I don't think they would have had the means/budget/foresight to integrate the HVAC with the lighting system. I also don't see why such a system would be practical or cost effective. It makes more sense to have the system monitor the air temp and maintain the requested temperature. It would be a waste of money to blindly run the HVAC just because [CHANNEL] [6][7] [THRU] [7][0] [FL]. 

Some more questions I would have are:
How long do the lights need to be on before the HVAC kicks in?
How long do the lights have to be off before the HVAC shuts down again?
Why have I never heard of an HVAC - Dimmer Rack interface?

---

The HVAC unit in question might not even be an HVAC unit. It is probably just an air handler and it won't have any controls on it. Even if it did, it's not like your Honeywell thermostat at home. Best leave it alone as the HVAC is probably controlled via PC at the school's office or at a remote facility. The district in my area has a building called Central Services, which is where the Superintendent and the school board's offices are located. This is also where the Heating/Air Conditioning is controlled.

Stick to your technical theatre and alert the powers that be about the uncomfortable temps in your auditorium. Believe it or not, some HVAC systems are just about as complicated and expensive as the lighting system and it's best to not mess around with it if you have no idea how it works.


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## Edrick (Jan 16, 2010)

i noticed you're from MA what part?


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## venuetech (Jan 16, 2010)

Les said:


> the HVAC is probably controlled via PC at the school's office or at a remote facility. The district in my area has a building called Central Services, which is where the Superintendent and the school board's offices are located. This is also where the Heating/Air Conditioning is controlled.



At one venue i was able to call and schedule changes with the maintenance dept. The fellow over there would program the necessary control changes to our schedule. they had control of most of the buildings on campus, from a central location.


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## shiben (Jan 16, 2010)

Les said:


> Believe it or not, some HVAC systems are just about as complicated and expensive as the lighting system and it's best to not mess around with it if you have no idea how it works.



I would guess a big building like a larger high school's might be more expensive than a lighting system, just because of the chillers and whatnot that are required to work everything. Heating requires large boilers, and cooling requires a cooling tower or some other form of chiller on the roof to make the water cold. Both of these parts are most likely in the hundreds of thousands range to build and install (just a guess, based on how complex they seem). I know for a fact that to get them fixed is a matter of experienced repair technicians coming out and doing complicated work, rather like the lighting systems, and that making adjustments is a PITA. The only way our college gets around this stuff is having an in house steam and cooling plant (I would guess most colleges do), with technicians that are trained by the installer to fix stuff employed by the college. The best thing to do is let the people in charge of the facility know, and if they wont do anything, invite them to a band concert.


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## Les (Jan 16, 2010)

shiben said:


> I would guess a big building like a larger high school's might be more expensive than a lighting system, just because of the chillers and whatnot that are required to work everything. Heating requires large boilers, and cooling requires a cooling tower or some other form of chiller on the roof to make the water cold. Both of these parts are most likely in the hundreds of thousands range to build and install (just a guess, based on how complex they seem). I know for a fact that to get them fixed is a matter of experienced repair technicians coming out and doing complicated work, rather like the lighting systems, and that making adjustments is a PITA. The only way our college gets around this stuff is having an in house steam and cooling plant (I would guess most colleges do), with technicians that are trained by the installer to fix stuff employed by the college. The best thing to do is let the people in charge of the facility know, and if they wont do anything, invite them to a band concert.



It's actually probably in the millions, depending on the system. I do know that it usually requires a helicopter to get a chiller/cooling tower on top of a building. The cost of the helicopter service alone is undoubtedly 4, maybe 5 figures depending on how long you need it.


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## shiben (Jan 16, 2010)

Les said:


> It's actually probably in the millions, depending on the system. I do know that it usually requires a helicopter to get a chiller/cooling tower on top of a building. The cost of the helicopter service alone is undoubtedly 4, maybe 5 figures depending on how long you need it.



Good point. Also, there are a lot of pipes that need to be run, insulated, etc for steam to come through them for the heat, and a ton of duct work for the chillers. The pipes are probably hundreds of thousands alone, maybe after labor (Ill ask my cousin, he installs stuff like this)


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## Les (Jan 16, 2010)

shiben said:


> Good point. Also, there are a lot of pipes that need to be run, insulated, etc for steam to come through them for the heat, and a ton of duct work for the chillers. The pipes are probably hundreds of thousands alone, maybe after labor (Ill ask my cousin, he installs stuff like this)



My dad used to do welding and hot tapping on the chilled water lines. He made good money doing it too. Now he does welding repairs on live gas mains.


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## MillburyAuditorium (Jan 16, 2010)

Les, Maybe you are right. I just assumed it was an integrated system. It probably is that there are sensors near the fixtures and thats why it kicks in so fast.
And like I said, I did not mean HVAC, it is only a AC unit. I do not even think the room has heat?

As for the questions, 
The AC kicks in after a few minutes and keeps blasting until a few minutes after the lights are off.

Edrick, we are in the Worcester area.


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## Edrick (Jan 17, 2010)

Ahh Alright I'm from Woburn. I'd venture to guess the performance space there would have heat also however it does get a bit cold lol


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## MillburyAuditorium (Jan 17, 2010)

Yeah, I just have never seen any heating vents


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## Les (Jan 17, 2010)

MillburyAuditorium said:


> Yeah, I just have never seen any heating vents



Heating and AC usually share vents. At least they do where I'm from


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## shiben (Jan 17, 2010)

Les said:


> Heating and AC usually share vents. At least they do where I'm from



Or it doesnt have any vents because its not a forced air system (most large buildings are not). If there is heating, its probably in radiators or something along the edges of the space, or under seats, or something like that. I would hazard a guess that your space has heat, as pretty much everything north of Georgia does (Im not actually sure on that line, but it seems reasonable). Now, your school might have a boiler to provide this steam, but if there isnt one, its probably because you are close enough to a power generation facility that you can use their steam. Interestingly enough and on a totally random note, outside of most major cities there are generation plants specifically for making steam to heat buildings... Which I find kind of interesting. [/geek]


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## Les (Jan 17, 2010)

shiben said:


> Or it doesnt have any vents because its not a forced air system (most large buildings are not). If there is heating, its probably in radiators or something along the edges of the space, or under seats, or something like that. I would hazard a guess that your space has heat, as pretty much everything north of Georgia does (Im not actually sure on that line, but it seems reasonable). Now, your school might have a boiler to provide this steam, but if there isnt one, its probably because you are close enough to a power generation facility that you can use their steam. Interestingly enough and on a totally random note, outside of most major cities there are generation plants specifically for making steam to heat buildings... Which I find kind of interesting. [/geek]



I'm in Denton (45 minutes north of Dallas) Texas and not in high school, but I can say that we (and most other modern intermediate sized buildings) do have forced air systems. Chillers, Rooftop units, etc are the way things are done here. There are also no boilers -- Most of our heating is done by way of gas or electric furnaces which sends the heat to the same air handlers that the AC's use.

Now I do know that some of our older buildings from the 1920's or so had boilers, but they have been retired. Texas Womans University here in Denton does use a steam plant, but that is a multi-acre (and very old yet well maintained) facility.

Every building I've been in here in Tx has heat as it can get pretty cold here, but for us at least, boilers are a thing of the past. Radiators are about as rare as basements down here.


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## shiben (Jan 17, 2010)

Les said:


> I'm in Denton (45 minutes north of Dallas) Texas and not in high school, but I can say that we (and most other modern intermediate sized buildings) do have forced air systems. Chillers, Rooftop units, etc are the way things are done here. There are also no boilers -- Most of our heating is done by way of gas or electric furnaces which sends the heat to the same air handlers that the AC's use.
> 
> Now I do know that some of our older buildings from the 1920's or so had boilers, but they have been retired. Texas Womans University here in Denton does use a steam plant, but that is a multi-acre (and very old yet well maintained) facility.
> 
> Every building I've been in here in Tx has heat as it can get pretty cold here, but for us at least, boilers are a thing of the past. Radiators are about as rare as basements down here.



Huh. Interesting. Ill have to ask my cousin how more modern (past 10 years) systems work. I guess all the buildings I tend to work in are older, so that might inform what I see...


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## museav (Jan 17, 2010)

Way too many guesses and assumptions to even have a valid discussion. HVAC control systems can be simple or get very complicated, there needs to be a lot more about the HVAC system and related control system known to even start to offer anything meaningful.

As far as how HVAC systems work, even that can vary greatly depending upon the facility location, building size, system age, ties into other campus or facility systems (e.g. a central plant) and so on. I will say that Georgia and even Florida still have heating, and after the last few weeks we are very glad we do. I can also note that modern Auditorium HVAC system do not use radiators, they typically use systems that are essentially similar to home HVAC systems with a return, fan, heating device (often a coil), cooling coil and shared forced air distribution system. The biggest difference is often in the form these units take and the method used for heating and cooling the air. It is also common to have more than one zone in a theatre, for example the stage and house may be two separate zones. This may be handled by separate units or a single multi-zone unit. Separation can also be an issue for booths and related spaces as they often need to operate independently, smaller spaces are often served by small packaged units or a system where medium temperature air is distributed and then further heated or cooled at smaller boxes serving specific areas.


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## Cashwalker (Jan 20, 2010)

> And like I said, I did not mean HVAC, it is only a AC unit. I do not even think the room has heat?


HVAC doesn't mean anything about heating. It stands for High Velocity Air Conditioning.
Whether it's hot or cold air, it's all "Air Conditioning". Conditioning the Air to a particular comfort zone.
In hot climates, that means that there may not be a heating unit installed at all, just as in the extreme cold climates a cooling unit may not be installed. 
But in both cases, the system still uses high velocity air through ducts to do the job.

The thermostat may be in a lockbox somewhere in the room. Look at anything (that you don't already know what they are) attached to the wall with small wire-mold raceways connected. (typical of post-construction installation)
Systems are hardly ever designed to use the return air temperature to trigger.


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## epimetheus (Jan 20, 2010)

Cashwalker said:


> HVAC doesn't mean anything about heating. It stands for High Velocity Air Conditioning.



Umm...no. HVAC typically stands for Heating, Ventilation, and Air Conditioning.

HVAC - Definition from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary

http://www.ashrae.org/


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## Les (Jan 20, 2010)

Cashwalker said:


> HVAC doesn't mean anything about heating. It stands for High Velocity Air Conditioning.
> Whether it's hot or cold air, it's all "Air Conditioning". Conditioning the Air to a particular comfort zone.
> In hot climates, that means that there may not be a heating unit installed at all, just as in the extreme cold climates a cooling unit may not be installed.
> But in both cases, the system still uses high velocity air through ducts to do the job.
> ...



I thought HVAC stood for *H*eating *V*entillation *A*ir*C*onditioning. Pretty sure that's the standard meaning, at least.


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## hsaunier (Jan 20, 2010)

Our new facility does have a very complex system for environment control. Along with temp control there are sensors for CO2. When you get enough people in the room breathing and exhaling CO2 the fans will kick on and change the air in the room and keep the air fresh.


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## museav (Jan 21, 2010)

Cashwalker said:


> HVAC doesn't mean anything about heating. It stands for High Velocity Air Conditioning.
> Whether it's hot or cold air, it's all "Air Conditioning". Conditioning the Air to a particular comfort zone.
> In hot climates, that means that there may not be a heating unit installed at all, just as in the extreme cold climates a cooling unit may not be installed.
> But in both cases, the system still uses high velocity air through ducts to do the job.


In general, high air velocity = noise and if a theatre is using a high velocity air distribution system for an auditorium or stage then you should probably be looking for another Engineer and Contractor. It may be different in other parts of the world but I have also never seen any schools or other commercial buildings in the U.S. that did not having heating and ventilation installed and none for many years without air conditioning, that includes 7+ years as an acoustician in a large mechanical and electrical consulting engineering firm working primarily in the Southeast.

I've always seen "HVAC" be taken to mean Heating, Ventilation & Air-Conditioning (or some variation on that, ASHRAE uses the hyphenated "air-conditioning"), but that may not be true in other countries.


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## Cashwalker (Jan 26, 2010)

OK, I stand corrected on the usage of the acronym.


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## lighthouse (Jan 26, 2010)

Most older schools in this area use radiator heat & don't have AC. The AC system was probably added in the past 10 years.

Like the other posters, I wouldn't be surprised to find the AC temperature sensor in a bad location, like next to your dimmer rack if the rack is offstage.


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