# Fog Machine Options



## gafftaper (Jul 9, 2007)

So for my new theater I'm trying to decide which way to go in purchasing fog machines. Ideally I would love to have a good Dry Ice fogger, a Chemical Fogger, and a Hazer but we'll see if I can afford that. 

Option 1) Lemaitre Pea Souper. About $700. Advantages: It's a big bad Dry ice fogger. Appears to be about the best you can get without spending a fortune. Limits: price and pain of getting and handling dry ice. 

Option 2) I've been thinking about a Martin Jem ZR33 for my standard chemical fogger (price about $800). Buy one of these get some quick dissipating fog and install a chiller. There have been several threads about do it yourself chillers here. I also found this chiller for sale for $150... which doesn't seem like that bad of a if you consider your time valuable. Advantages... $950 and I have a chemical fogger and a low lying fogger. No CO2 hazzard. A big Bag O' Ice is cheaper and easier to get than Dry ice. Ice Chiller provides low fog for hours. 

Option 3) Antari Ice 101. A fogger with a built in chiller that holds 20 pounds of ice. Looks like the price is around $600. Looks like you can use it without the ice for a normal chemical fog effect. Nice all in one unit. 

So my questions to you:

1) Is a good chiller combined with quick dissipating low lying chemical formula fluid REALLY as good as real dry ice? 

2) What do you think of the Antari Ice 101 with the built in chiller vs another fogger and a home built/purchased chiller?

3) Anybody actually used the Antari Ice 101? 

4) What do you think of the Martin Jem ZR33 for a general chemical fogger? Do you have any other suggestions for a good chemical fogger for around $800 or less. The theater is a 55 foot square black box, so I don't need the biggest baddest unit LeMaitre sells.

5) Favorite Hazers for a small space and a price around $800 or so?


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## avkid (Jul 9, 2007)

Welding Supply houses almost always have dry ice.
Try any of these places in or near Seattle:
http://www.dryicedirectory.com/results.asp


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## jonhirsh (Jul 9, 2007)

The problem with Chilled fog is that when an actor steps in it, the fog kicks up. Therefore it is no longer low lying. With dry ice fog you can step in it all you want and nothing is going to happen. 

The real questions is which will you actualy use. IMO i would get a hazer as that is something you can use in every show. A dry ice machine is kinda a special effect thing. 

JH


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## gafftaper (Jul 9, 2007)

My point with the dry ice being a pain wasn't finding it, that's not a big deal in Seattle. But it's a heck of a lot more expensive than a bag of ice. And there are the general hassles of handling it safely instead of go to 7-11 buy two bags of ice and dump in a chiller. 

If you are using a a fast dissipating fluid that is supposedly designed to be a low lying fog in a chiller is it still a big problem having it kick up when people walk through?

As for the hazer it's definitely on the list of things I want to get... however, I'm concerned about the fire alarm situation. I'm going to rent one and test it before I buy one only to find out it sets off the fire alarm every time we try to use it.


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## jonhirsh (Jul 9, 2007)

If a hazer sets it off, a fog machine will do it too.

JH


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## gafftaper (Jul 9, 2007)

jonhirsh said:


> If a hazer sets it off, a fog machine will do it too.
> JH



Thus my interest in chillers and dry ice foggers. Like I said, once I have access to the building I'm going to rent some stuff and test it with the Fire Department knowing that I'm testing.


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## icewolf08 (Jul 10, 2007)

Or you could get your low fog and regular fog in one machine, the Look Solutions CryoFog. It is an all in one unit that uses liquid CO2 as coolant for low fog, but under DMX control it can be operated as a standard fogger as well.


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## jonhirsh (Jul 10, 2007)

I think your missing my point. Chillers chill regualr fog... 

When you walk in chilled fog weither it be nitrogyn cooled or ice. 
It kicks up and is no longer low lying. 

It will set off the fire alarms. I can vouch that this is true because i have done it. If your space has an issue with the alarms being sensitive, they you will have an issue with low lying fog. 

The only exception to this is dry ice. 


JH


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## gafftaper (Jul 10, 2007)

Thanks John. One of the key things I wanted to get from this thread was how different does chilled chemical fog act from CO2 fog. Sounds like in your opinion it's REALLY not even close. That's good to know. 

As far as the Haze vs. Fog and the alarms. Yeah first I'm going to rent some gear and test it in the space to see how the sensitive the alarms are. While you are right that if haze sets it off fog will too, my point is that hazing a whole room for lighting effect is far more likely to set off the alarms than a few blasts of quick dissipating fog fluid for a quick effect. 

If I had all the money in the world then clearly I would love to have all three units but odds are I can only afford one or two. Thus the chiller gets very tempting as it allows one unit to double. 

By the way an additional question in the past I've been told don't buy a fogger/hazer as it doesn't do either very well. Is that still the case? Are there any good ones out there?


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## jonhirsh (Jul 10, 2007)

Never heard of a foger hazer. only a foger that if set on a low seting with a high fan will result in some thiner longer hanging fog. 

Didnt really work.

btw. its Jon no H


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## gafftaper (Jul 10, 2007)

There were a few fogger/hazers out about 8 years ago when I last purchased a fogger. I think it was simply a matter of flipping a switch and changing the fluid. It was probably such a bad idea that nobody makes them now. 

So what about chemical fogger brands. I've been thinking about a Martin Magnum 800 or 1200. Any other brands I should consider. My last fogger was a High End F-100, which could really belt it out. Again this is for use in a Black Box that's about 55 feet square so I don't need a monster fogger. I was thinking the magnum series because there are several levels of output to choose from.


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## gpforet (Jul 10, 2007)

I have used both and here's my experience.

A fog chiller works. However, the points about it getting kicked up by actors is true, and quick disappating juice doesn't stop that, it just dissapates more quickly. Also, for a fog chiller to create a really nice low-lying bed, you need alot of fog. Even to fill black box stages, I had to resort to a big rosco 1800 watt constant fogger.

When I have used dry ice, I can usually get by with about 30 lbs per show. I have my own hot water dry ice fogger which I built, and by including a low volume blower feeding the tank, I can control the amount of fog onstage. The problem with dry ice is that it disappates, and keeping it in an ice chest, or even freezer doesn't help. When you consider the surface temperature of dry ice, then trying to preserve it in a freezer which only goes down to 20 degrees is fruitless. I usually keep it in styofoam coolers and plan for a 50% evaporation over 24 hours, so when I'm doing two shows (fri and sat), I buy 150% of what I'll need.

The other thing I've found with fog machines and chillers is that quick dissapating fog juice clogs my foggers much more quickly than coventional juice. When I'm using quick dis. juice, I have to clean nozzles and heat exchangers every 2 weeks. It's a pain.

So, in conculsion, if the show calls for low lying fog, I opt for dry ice and discuss the costs and logistics with the director up front. Typically, for black box, that's about $100 per weekend for two shows.


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## gafftaper (Jul 10, 2007)

Good news. I just learned that the local Fire Marshal has had it with false alarms so they are requiring all new construction to have heat detectors, not smoke detectors. So I should be able to Fog and Haze all I want. Sweet!!


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## BillESC (Jul 11, 2007)

Consider Le Maitre's Radiance for your hazing needs. Hard to find a better machine at the price point.


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## Grog12 (Jul 11, 2007)

I personally have never had anything but trouble with Le MAitre hazers. No matter how we've set them they usually come out more like smoke than haze...but that's just my expeirience I know others have had success with them.


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## gafftaper (Jul 11, 2007)

I had a Rosco rep trying to give me the hard sell on their hazer and how it's the only one approved by Actor's Equity.

Anybody like them? Are they REALLY any safer than anything else?


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## gafftaper (Jul 11, 2007)

Grog12 said:


> I personally have never had anything but trouble with Le MAitre hazers. No matter how we've set them they usually come out more like smoke than haze...but that's just my expeirience I know others have had success with them.



Hey Grog Welcome to the booth. You've had a lot of great personal insight to share in your recent posts. Thanks. I don't remember if you posted in the new member forum when you first joined up or not... but if you didn't please do. Tell us where you are and what you do, post a link to your theater or business. It's your one free shot to shamelessly promote yourself.


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## Grog12 (Jul 11, 2007)

gafftaper said:


> Hey Grog Welcome to the booth. You've had a lot of great personal insight to share in your recent posts. Thanks. I don't remember if you posted in the new member forum when you first joined up or not... but if you didn't please do. Tell us where you are and what you do, post a link to your theater or business. It's your one free shot to shamelessly promote yourself.


Thanks,
I'd swear I did...I'll have to look because I can't remember if I did or not.


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## Grog12 (Jul 12, 2007)

gafftaper said:


> I had a Rosco rep trying to give me the hard sell on their hazer and how it's the only one approved by Actor's Equity.
> Anybody like them? Are they REALLY any safer than anything else?



Uhm...

A) BS to the only one approved by AEA. 
B) Boo to AEA and all their silly haze guidelines. I'm sorry it I have just worked with too many whiney actors who even when using AE approved haze fluid did little whiney complaints. Coughing like I'd lit up a cigarette on stage.

http://www.actorsequity.org/docs/safesan/equipment-based.pdf
There findings and descions on how smoke/haze effects should be used with actors on stage.

All that being said...I haven't used a Rosco hazer...


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## Sean (Jul 12, 2007)

Grog12 said:


> Uhm...
> A) BS to the only one approved by AEA.
> QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## icewolf08 (Jul 12, 2007)

I second the Unique, it is a great hazer. Plus, Look Soutions will send you one to demo of any of their products for free, no questions asked.


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## Sean (Jul 12, 2007)

So, you can't write d a m n here? Really? You're kidding, right?


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## Van (Jul 12, 2007)

Grog12 said:


> A) BS to the only one approved by AEA.
> B) Boo to AEA and all their silly haze guidelines. I'm sorry it I have just worked with too many whiney actors who even when using AE approved haze fluid did little whiney complaints. Coughing like I'd lit up a cigarette on stage.


 

I agree with the BS factor My research has shown that AEA endorses no foggers whatsoever. As Sean pointed out they have only set guidlines for concentration and exposure. If they actually endorse a product it would sort of be like OSHA saying," you must brand XYZ, fall arrest." Now they can write the specs so as only one or two brands qualify, but they can't actually endorse a product. 

As far as "Boo to AEA......" Just remember, Grog, you are not on stage 6 days a week, doing seven, sometimes eight shows a week, singing, dancing and emoteing your heart out. < well maybe you are and have lungs of iron> While it may seem silly to some of us who have worked in the Wood Shop since long before there were dust collectors, I think they < whiney actors> deserve just as much Occupational Safety as we do.

< 'course that doesnt excuse the Massive coughing fit when you test the fog machine in the SL wing and they are standing in the SR wing, But then I've had people have coughing fits when I light a cigarette outside, they're a block away, and upwind of me> 

Just keepin' it real.


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## gafftaper (Jul 13, 2007)

Ok, so we've got votes for Unique and Radiance hazers... not a big surprise there really. What about foggers? Like I said, my sales rep wants me to get a Jem. At my previous school I had an H.E.S. F-100. Remember it's for a 55 foot square black box. I want good performance but it'll only take a few seconds to fill the whole theater with a big fogger. 

What's your favorite Fogger product?


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## Sean (Jul 13, 2007)

Van said:


> As Sean pointed out they have only set guidlines for concentration and exposure. If they actually endorse a product it would sort of be like OSHA saying," you must brand XYZ, fall arrest." Now they can write the specs so as only one or two brands qualify, but they can't actually



Well, not really true. As AEA (Actors Equity Association) is not a regulatory body of the government, they can make any endorsement/request they'd like. Just like you can negotiate a particular pay rate, AEA can negotiate for whatever it wants (as can LORT, Broadway producers, etc). They do not currently endorse a particular product, but that doesn't mean there is any law, regulation, etc that precludes them from doing so in the future.


Really, the problem is twofold. The MASSIVE amounts of "false" information spread around being the bigger part. If you don't know, just go look it up--don't rely on some rep (read: salesman) to interpret a contractual agreement for you. All of the fog information is available online through AEA's website. You'll have to spend 15 minutes reading it--and having a basic understanding of an MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet) will be helpful.

The other part of the problem is Equity itself. Those in the office (I'm speaking specifically of the staff in the NY office that deals with LORT contracts) do NOT know what they are looking at when they read fog information. The questions that I've been asked after information is submitted reflect a gross lack of knowledge. This individual/these individuals just as much need to go educate themselves if they're supposed to be the contact people for LORT.

*off soapbox*

--Sean


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## Sean (Jul 13, 2007)

gafftaper said:


> Ok, so we've got votes for Unique and Radiance hazers... not a big surprise there really. What about foggers? Like I said, my sales rep wants me to get a Jem. At my previous school I had an H.E.S. F-100. Remember it's for a 55 foot square black box. I want good performance but it'll only take a few seconds to fill the whole theater with a big fogger.
> What's your favorite Fogger product?



I know it's a bit overkill for your space, but I'd still vote for the F-100. Ability to put out fog quickly is just as important as volume produced.

I really think you should demo a Unique and see if you NEED a fogger too. The Unique can put out so much stuff it almost looks like a fogger. I think you'll be surprised. There are videos on their website http://www.fogspecs.com
Check out the output...

--Sean


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## Grog12 (Jul 13, 2007)

Van said:


> As far as "Boo to AEA......" Just remember, Grog, you are not on stage 6 days a week, doing seven, sometimes eight shows a week, singing, dancing and emoteing your heart out. < well maybe you are and have lungs of iron> While it may seem silly to some of us who have worked in the Wood Shop since long before there were dust collectors, I think they < whiney actors> deserve just as much Occupational Safety as we do.
> < 'course that doesnt excuse the Massive coughing fit when you test the fog machine in the SL wing and they are standing in the SR wing, But then I've had people have coughing fits when I light a cigarette outside, they're a block away, and upwind of me>
> Just keepin' it real.



You're right I'm not on stage doing that many shows a week. I'm working 14 hour days 6 days a week making everything else happen around them. But here's what you're missing from my post that I probably didn't make clear. Unions just like anything else in life are good only to a point. Both AEA and IA are full of people who exploit the system and use it as a reason to have an attitude problem. 
Everyone derserves a safe work environment, but they don't deserve protection that allows them to be a jack ass just for the sake of being a jerk.


gafftaper said:


> Ok, so we've got votes for Unique and Radiance hazers... not a big surprise there really. What about foggers? Like I said, my sales rep wants me to get a Jem. At my previous school I had an H.E.S. F-100. Remember it's for a 55 foot square black box. I want good performance but it'll only take a few seconds to fill the whole theater with a big fogger.
> What's your favorite Fogger product?


I'm a fan of the F100, but in my own opinion theres nothing better than a 50 Gallon drum pea souper.


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## Van (Jul 13, 2007)

Grog12 said:


> .................. but they don't deserve protection that allows them to be a jack ass just for the sake of being a jerk..................


 

I claim that Right as an American, I throw it in there with Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. 


I like the F-100.


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## icewolf08 (Jul 13, 2007)

I haven't actually worked with them, but the Look Solutions Foggers seem to be pretty kick As$. And, as with the Unique, you can demo them fro free.


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## gafftaper (Jul 14, 2007)

Sean said:


> I know it's a bit overkill for your space, but I'd still vote for the F-100. Ability to put out fog quickly is just as important as volume produced.
> I really think you should demo a Unique and see if you NEED a fogger too. The Unique can put out so much stuff it almost looks like a fogger. I think you'll be surprised. There are videos on their website http://www.fogspecs.com
> Check out the output...
> --Sean



Interesting idea Sean... in a space so small the difference between a fogger and a big hazer set on "kill" might not be all that much. I might be able to get away with just the hazer and the peasouper... hmmm


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## Sean (Jul 14, 2007)

gafftaper said:


> Interesting idea Sean... in a space so small the difference between a fogger and a big hazer set on "kill" might not be all that much. I might be able to get away with just the hazer and the peasouper... hmmm



This of course would not work with most hazers (many are just "on/off"). Call up Look Solutions. Tell them you're considering buying a Unique, and you'd like to demo one. You'll most likely end up talking to either Nathan or Hunter--they're both really nice guys. They'll send you a machine to try. We demoed one for the run of a show (10 weeks) with no problems.

The output of the Unique on high is very impressive.

Barbizon and Production Advantage sell their stuff. The Unique will run you ~$1400-$1500 or so.

I really think it would be a good option for this situation.

--Sean


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