# Reasons not to get cheap moving head lights



## Bubby4j

I've looked around and seen no one suggests the cheapo moving head fixtures, are they really so unreliable that parts will be breaking all the time? I'd like a more in-depth list of reasons not to get cheap (sub $1000) moving head lights.


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## metti

Yes. They are really so unreliable that parts will be breaking all the time and, perhaps more importantly, their manufacturers are so unreliable that getting replacement parts or repairs will be excessively difficult.


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## DaveySimps

I agree 100%. Plus their intensity and quality of light is not as great. You do indeed get what you pay for... and who wants to buy future headaches and money traps?

~Dave


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## Bubby4j

So I take it something like the blizzard blade RGBW (Blade) is no good?


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## Amiers

So get ready to slice and dice, and pick up your Blade™ RGBW's today!


lol well I will give them props for a good marketing solgan.


As far as it being good, Good for what. What kind of area are you going to use it in. Go to the spec sheet and read the lumens per meter chart can't really comment on the fixture itself as I haven't used it.

But like the saying goes cheap is cheap.


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## Bubby4j

Effect lighting for church band, was thinking house lights off and just have them roam around the walls/ceiling with them sitting on the stage. It's a fairly small room, youth. Most likely wouldn't be using fog.


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## remdim

We've used a few of the par fixtures from Blizzard with varying degrees of success. Being that they are in the ADJ/Elation Pro range there are absolutely some compromises. The units between $200 and $500 usd I have are quite bright for the price, but the build quality/menu complexity/dimming curve changes based on the product line. Blizzard is also a newer company, but I've seen positive changes addressing original issues as time goes by.

If you're looking for simple effects and a general bright light for the price this may work. I would be very concerned about the build quality of it, however. Will it be transferred between spaces? Re-hung? Road cases? What is Blizzards warranty/repair policy? Would it be worth jumping up to the MAC 101 at 3x the cost if you may get 3x the lifetime out of it?

Asking myself these questions, too....this Blizzard line is interesting.


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## JD

It's important to remember that there are fixtures made in China, and then there are fixtures made in china.

What I am saying is that there are some companies (Elation, Chauvet, etc.) that are made in China that are not half bad. The reason is the company actually cares about quality and warranty. Then there is a whole slew of fixtures made in china that have no quality assurance programs and almost useless warranties. So, even though the product may look identical, one may work pretty good and have a company behind them that will honor their warranty, and another may not last the day or be bad out of the box and any warranty coverage involves a "slow boat to China" that may never return!


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## StNic54

You get what you pay for, indeed. There are cheap lights that should be cheap, and there are expensive lights that can sometimes seem cheap, as well. Ultimately, go with the companies that offer the best deals, the best support, and have a positive reputation. I ran into this with a set of architectural LED's I used about 8 years ago - the LED's from different batches all had varying degree of colors (in other words, some had more red than others), and they weren't meant for road use (but were advertised for it). Over time, the LED's would start dying internally, and I was told at two years (and with no warranty left) that the fixtures were too expensive to fix because the factory was in China, and shipping was a lot. After two years these Chinese LED's were cheaper to replace than repair, and they were $700/piece at the time (I think we owned 25 or 30). Had we gone with Color Kinetics or any of the other known brands, we would have spent maybe 50% more per unit, but they'd have been supported and would still be standing today.


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## BillESC

The Blade is an exceptional value for what it is. Using Cree diodes colors will be consistant and Blizzard's 2 year warranty is better than most.

Smooth movement and a nice dimming curve make this fixture the real deal IMHO.


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## MarshallPope

I'll say that I've played with some ~$700 no-name RGB LED wash movers that weren't half bad for what they were. Would I ever even think about using them as primary face light, or as downlight in a large space? Definitely not. Would I order some to use in a televised production without time to send back any that were defective? Nope. Were they OK for additional eye candy/sparkles on stage or as ceiling scrapers? Oh yeah, and they looked great doing it. 

I guess my point is this: If you only have the budget for some cheap instruments, then by all means, get a few if you want them. But don't expect them to light up Radio City Music Hall, or even work properly every time you want them to. Know what you are getting into, and remember that you get what you pay for.


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## techieman33

I'm not sure they're worth it without using haze, seeing the beams moving through the air is the majority of their eye candy value IMO.


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## jstroming

I have used moving lights made from China with great success. I am using them in a concert-type setting. I currently own over 100 of them.

I am also of the camp that believes there are many in the US market who will discredit Chinese manufacturers at all costs, seeing that many US companies are now using Chinese moving lights over more well-established western companies.

I know many companies in the US that use Chinese moving lights with great success. I would say it is important to have spare units lying around, and most of the companies I know in the NYC area will buy a lot more than they plan on using so they have spares and parts available.

If you are using them in non mission-critical applications and have the budget for spares, I say go for it.


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## avkid

My $600 Chauvet moving heads are pretty great.
If you're willing to sacrifice a few features, sub $1000 fixtures can be very useful.


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## BillESC

MarshallPope said:


> But don't expect them to light up Radio City Music Hall, or even work properly every time you want them to.



As one of the few here at Control Booth to ever work at Radio City Music Hall as a Lighting Designer, you're right, sub 1K movers won't have the power if you're talking profile type units. The Blades however would work quite well at the Hall's trim heights.


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## Spresley

One thing that hasn't been covered is whatever light you get, you'd better make sure there is a profile on your moving light desk to support it, or you are able to use another manufactuerers profile, or you are able to make your own. As for the blizzard product specifically, I've used the propar 336's before, they had good output etc... but I just found the build quality wasn't there I had some out of box failures that had to travel ( Over the US / canada boarders AT MY EXPENSE). They were okay for the money - I just recently sold them all off, looking for moving wash fixtures. I have to say after buying 8 Martin 101's, I'd sure like to now buy 20 of these for the same amount of money and "take my chances".


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## Goph704

To expound a little on what JD was saying, quality assurance is a big consideration. I was speaking to a sales Rep from one of the major companies a few days ago, and he pointed out that he was having trouble with certain manufactures sending his company bad parts. He mentioned that out of an order of 100 parts that only four were functional...... Four. ( I think they are going to find another manufacturer.) This means that they had 96 completed lights with only one issue and were unable to ship any of them until that issue was dealt with. A typical Moving head fixture is made up of around 1,400 different components. When you buy a product, you aren't paying less for drastically different components, you are paying for less quality control. Labor is the most part of every product. More Specialists means more planning and thought went into the product. More eyes have been put on the product making sure that nothing goes out the door with a problem, or if there is one then it is it's fixed and replaced. Not everyone necessarily has those standards. And you end up playing Russian roulette with those components. Some will work great, Other will not. but if it breaks, you are pretty much on your own. And that's 1,4000 games of Russian Roulette. Just something to think about.


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## Esoteric

Depends on what you are trying to get for sub $1000. If you are trying to get a DJ type scanner then you can get tons of stuff for sub $1k. If you are trying to compare to a 250W discharge mover you can get some decent gear for $1k or so. If you are trying to get something like a 575W mover, then yeah, are only going to get junk for under $1k.


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## Esoteric

jstroming said:


> I have used moving lights made from China with great success. I am using them in a concert-type setting. I currently own over 100 of them.
> 
> I am also of the camp that believes there are many in the US market who will discredit Chinese manufacturers at all costs, seeing that many US companies are now using Chinese moving lights over more well-established western companies.
> 
> I know many companies in the US that use Chinese moving lights with great success. I would say it is important to have spare units lying around, and most of the companies I know in the NYC area will buy a lot more than they plan on using so they have spares and parts available.
> 
> If you are using them in non mission-critical applications and have the budget for spares, I say go for it.



The dirty little secret of moving/LED lighting is that the vast majority of companies OEM all their parts from China anyway. Many companies even have their units made under private label contracts in China. At the heart of it there really are only Chinese moving lights/LEDs (meaning some component is made in China at the least). That being said, as someone said below it is all about quality control. A large company will get shipments of thousands of a particular light and randomly (or not randomly) check quality to make sure all the units are working. If not they can sit on 500 or 600 units and still ship out huge orders on time.

The problem with companies like Blizzard (and my own I will admit) is that if an order is large enough we can't ship it if we get 15 or 20 bad units and we have to wait for replacements (which aren't quick to get).

So the issue is not quality really, but quality control.

That being said, I recently got a shipment of 80 Chauvet LED units and 45 of them were defective. The next day I got 36 Elation units and 8 of them were defective. I have never got a defective Vari-Lite (why? because they QC every unit before it leaves the factory).

So for me there are two levels. There are guys like VL who check every single unit before it goes out the door and then there is everyone else.

By the way, I buy and use Chinese units (straight from the manufacturer in China, private labeled for me) with little or no issue (we have about a 5% failure rate and a 3% warranty replacement rate so far).

So you can't say China Bad! Or anything like that. But certainly some retailers are going to have better QC than others.


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## gafftaper

Just because something is made in China doesn't make it bad. There are many major products made in China. The trick is to minimize risk by watching quality of components, build quality, and buying from someone who is going to stand behind the product down the road to support it. 

Don't buy the cheapest fixtures you can find from "Joe's random website", E-bay, or direct from "Guangzhou Super Best Stage Lighting". You have no guarantee of quality components, build quality and no one to back them up. These products may have pictures and specifications that look exactly like a Martin product. They may be built in the same factory as Elation... heck maybe even the same assembly line. But what are you going to do if they break in two months? Who do you go to for parts? Who do you get to fix it? You are buying a disposable fixture with no guarantee of how long it will last or if there is any sort of possible repair when it's done. 

What should you consider buying? 

1) Most importantly. Call your local dealer, the person you will go to for repairs and ask what low budget products they are selling and servicing. If you need it repaired, and you want your guy to fix it, make sure he can before you buy. Odds are really good that, as Esoteric mentioned above, they may be working with a Chinese manufacturer to import a product with their brand on it to be the house brand. This is fairly common these days. PNTA is one of the top Dealers here in the Pacific Northwest. They sell "K9" LED's. Yeah, you never heard of them right. It's clearly a name that's been slapped on the product and is being sold by half a dozen dealers around the country as the house brand. While I'm a bit hesitant to buy them, I feel a lot better about purchasing a K9 light over just about any other low budget LED because I know that Seattle's resident repair wizard Carl has torn them apart in the back and knows what makes them tick. If Carl can fix them, then I know I've got a fixture I can trust, because I trust Carl. 

2) If your local dealer doesn't have something they sell, then expand your search to dealers from other places that you can trust. Look for a house brand from someone like Esoteric that you can trust. Esoteric may not be close enough to repair it for you, but unlike "China, Inc" Esoteric's reputation is on the line when he sells you a product. Mike's going to make sure that it works out of the box, that the specifications in his advertising match the reality of the fixture, he's going to help you if there is a warranty repair issue, and he's going to make sure it has a decent build quality (compared to other low end products). "China, Inc" is motivated by making a fast buck, regardless of the long term results. Someone like Esoteric wants you to be a happy customer, tell your friends and buy more gear in the future. He has to minimize the risk for you in order for that all to happen. Thus the dealer becomes a layer of protection in the Chinese wild west. 
http://www.controlbooth.com/wiki/Collaborative+Articles:Dealers+for+Supplies+and+Equipment

3) Finally, look for emerging smaller "no name" brands that actually stand for something. There is Blizzard, a year ago we were all talking about Neo-Neon or Irradiant products, these are "no name brands" that rise above the rest and establish themselves as name brands you've heard of. With that name identity comes reputation. Blizzard is a small, but rapidly growing brand. While it's far from having ETC standing behind the product, you are getting a recognized name, with a fairly large and rapidly growing dealer network, and this translates into a company with a reputation on the line. Which is what you need to build another layer of protection into the purchase. Now combine the Blizzard brand name with a dealer you can trust excitable: quiet down BillESC we know you sell them) or better yet, be lucky enough that your local shop deals in Blizzard and you've created multiple layers of protection that should help insure your purchase is not a complete waste. 

Finally a couple closing thoughts: 
Never buy a bunch of these products without testing one in person first. Ask for a demo. If you can't get a demo buy one and make sure it meets your needs before you drop a couple grand on a whole kit. 

Watch carefully for quality of components. Some LED fixtures just say "Super bright LED's", others try to dazzle you with a massive number of smaller LED's. The good ones come with a brand like Luxeon or Cree stamped on them. Know your components. 

Remember that you are buying low budget gear, they are cutting corners somewhere in: quality control, skill of the labor, component quality, and/or build quality. You should never buy this kind of gear for highly critical applications because the chance of failure is always there. Don't buy this kind of gear and expect it to survive a 150 day 160 city tour in the back of a Ford van. It's not built for that. Don't buy this kind of gear and expect it to survive really heavy use like 10 hours a day 7 days a week. You might get lucky and it might be fine, or it might fry by Thursday.


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## Esoteric

Great post. You would not believe how much junk we went through (buying and testing) before we picked the 10 or so products we sell now.

Also know to some extent you get what you pay for. We make good deals because we take a little less profit, but you are not buying one of my moving lights and getting a VL3500. You just aren't. It is good stuff, but its not a VL. Just like an Elation Opto-Splitter is not DFD splitter. Its just not.

Mike


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## gafftaper

This brings us back to one of my pet peeves, which is the snobbery many of us have about lower quality gear here. We can't all afford Martin/HES/ETC/Yamaha... etc. But we don't all need those quality brands either. There is a right tool for the right job at every budget level in this industry. You just have to be realistic about the expectations of what it can do and surround yourself with dealers you can trust to help you make good decisions and give you quality repairs when things do go wrong.


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## Esoteric

Great post. We are going to team up with R90 productions in the American NW to do an entire festival (a large one) exclusively with our Visioneer LED fixtures as a "green" festival. The promoter is thrilled with the idea.


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## Bubby4j

How hard is it to do your own repairs? I can understand they'd be more moving parts than a computer but how does it compare?


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## Les

Bubby4j said:


> How hard is it to do your own repairs? I can understand they'd be more moving parts than a computer but how does it compare?



Compared to computers? Well for the most part, moving lights don't use parts that are easy to find or substitute. Most people don't do component-level repairs to computers so I won't go there, but computers are largely open-sourced. You can get hard drives, power supplies, and things like that pretty cheap online. But looking for that particular stepper motor or driver chip for a moving head isn't so easy. Very proprietary and brand-specific in most cases. Parts usually aren't available at your local Radioshack. 

The reason this thread mentions repairs is largely because time = money. If something should be under warranty, why would you want to pay for your own parts (which can be very expensive), and invest your own labor hours in to repairing the fixtures? [-]Some[/-] Most venues don't have the time to invest in to getting a moving light working. Add to that, most venues aren't staffed with individuals who are trained to repair moving lights.


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## gafftaper

Exactly, if you had access to the parts you need, it would be time consuming but you could do it eventually. But getting the parts is the hard part. 

Repairing a mover is closer to repairing a clock than a computer, there are a LOT of parts in there. Take a look at this exploded diagram for working on a Clay Paky Alpha 1200 fixture. If you are lucky you will have a diagram this good. Some companies provide them some don't. If you are lucky you will be able to get parts from the factory or a secondary dealer like www.lightparts.com If you aren't lucky you'll have no parts available and nothing to tell you what the parts are or where they go.


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## Esoteric

gafftaper said:


> Exactly, if you had access to the parts you need, it would be time consuming but you could do it eventually. But getting the parts is the hard part.
> 
> Repairing a mover is closer to repairing a clock than a computer, there are a LOT of parts in there. Take a look at this exploded diagram for working on a Clay Paky Alpha 1200 fixture. If you are lucky you will have a diagram this good. Some companies provide them some don't. If you are lucky you will be able to get parts from the factory or a secondary dealer like LightParts.com - The Parts and Repair Source for Entertainment Lighting If you aren't lucky you'll have no parts available and nothing to tell you what the parts are or where they go.



Yeah, I am so thankful that I went to a University where I could get no pressure (well, almost no pressure) experience in repairing moving lights (they expected us to break things). It was invaluable. Got me a lot of jobs when I first started. Helps me do warranty work on these lights too.


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## kendal69

gafftaper said:


> Just because something is made in China doesn't make it bad. There are many major products made in China. The trick is to minimize risk by watching quality of components, build quality, and buying from someone who is going to stand behind the product down the road to support it.
> 
> Don't buy the cheapest fixtures you can find from "Joe's random website", E-bay, or direct from "Guangzhou Super Best Stage Lighting". You have no guarantee of quality components, build quality and no one to back them up. These products may have pictures and specifications that look exactly like a Martin product. They may be built in the same factory as Elation... heck maybe even the same assembly line. But what are you going to do if they break in two months? Who do you go to for parts? Who do you get to fix it? You are buying a disposable fixture with no guarantee of how long it will last or if there is any sort of possible repair when it's done.
> 
> .



Why NOT buy the cheapest light, I do and I make money the day that light goes out apposed to buying through a USA dealer name brand. 

I've been buying from ( no name Chinese company) light manufacturers for over a decade and you are 100% correct about service etc., but here's what people need to understand, it's all about PRICE, PRICE, PRICE. I got a quote for a name brand light from a typical dealer, the mover was nearly 4K for ONE LIGHT. The Chinese no name light was $385.00 for the comparable light, lumens, gobos etc., times (4) lights $397 for shipping shipping $125.00 times (2) road case. So a little over $2,000.00 for (4) "equivalent" lights compared to nearly $20,000.00 for the NAME BRAND, well built, dealer serviced light. 

Again $2,000.00 vs $20,000.00. So you can see why I buy the no name, no service brand. Now here's what I do as far as service, I either throw the light away if it breaks down, because even if my brand name light needed repair it would cost more than buying a new Chinese Special. Or, I have had the Chinese company send me a box of repair parts at no charge, Drivers, motors, LED panels, cords. etc. they are more than willing to do that. 

In my over a decade of buying and using lights from China, I calculate the dead on arrival lights ( but I have had dead on arrival lights from major vendors in the USA also ). I get to make a PROFIT on the lights on the very first job. I rent the movers for what they cost me new. 

I've done the same with LED pars, bar lights etc. I have purchased bar lights that are as bright and functional as the know $3,000.00 bar light that is popular, for $300.00. 

So you have good arguments, but it's hard to make money in the lighting business when you need to spend $20K on lights - how long do you have to rent those out to make a profit....and when you do FINALLY start to make a profit, that light is WAY WAY WAY past it's prime and the industry has moved on with better, brighter. 

That's why, the second a light gives me trouble - it goes in the trash, and I no longer cringe like I used to, my time is worth more that it takes to trouble shoot a bad light .

Bottom line in over a decade I have never ever had a customer come up to me and say GEE, I didn't like the lights because they were cheap Chinese throw away lights. In this business, it's about making profit and keeping customers happy and I do that in spades with the Cheap Chinese "junk"


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## Jay Ashworth

So, kendal: your incidence of "luminaire fails *during a customer event*" has been low enough to make that a sensible approach?


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## techieman33

kendal69 said:


> Why NOT buy the cheapest light, I do and I make money the day that light goes out apposed to buying through a USA dealer name brand.
> 
> I've been buying from ( no name Chinese company) light manufacturers for over a decade and you are 100% correct about service etc., but here's what people need to understand, it's all about PRICE, PRICE, PRICE. I got a quote for a name brand light from a typical dealer, the mover was nearly 4K for ONE LIGHT. The Chinese no name light was $385.00 for the comparable light, lumens, gobos etc., times (4) lights $397 for shipping shipping $125.00 times (2) road case. So a little over $2,000.00 for (4) "equivalent" lights compared to nearly $20,000.00 for the NAME BRAND, well built, dealer serviced light.
> 
> Again $2,000.00 vs $20,000.00. So you can see why I buy the no name, no service brand. Now here's what I do as far as service, I either throw the light away if it breaks down, because even if my brand name light needed repair it would cost more than buying a new Chinese Special. Or, I have had the Chinese company send me a box of repair parts at no charge, Drivers, motors, LED panels, cords. etc. they are more than willing to do that.
> 
> In my over a decade of buying and using lights from China, I calculate the dead on arrival lights ( but I have had dead on arrival lights from major vendors in the USA also ). I get to make a PROFIT on the lights on the very first job. I rent the movers for what they cost me new.
> 
> I've done the same with LED pars, bar lights etc. I have purchased bar lights that are as bright and functional as the know $3,000.00 bar light that is popular, for $300.00.
> 
> So you have good arguments, but it's hard to make money in the lighting business when you need to spend $20K on lights - how long do you have to rent those out to make a profit....and when you do FINALLY start to make a profit, that light is WAY WAY WAY past it's prime and the industry has moved on with better, brighter.
> 
> That's why, the second a light gives me trouble - it goes in the trash, and I no longer cringe like I used to, my time is worth more that it takes to trouble shoot a bad light .
> 
> Bottom line in over a decade I have never ever had a customer come up to me and say GEE, I didn't like the lights because they were cheap Chinese throw away lights. In this business, it's about making profit and keeping customers happy and I do that in spades with the Cheap Chinese "junk"



If your going along with your lights all the time that can work for you, or if you renting to smaller clients. There are a lot of clients that would laugh at you and hang up the phone if you told them you didn't really have sharpies, you had chinese knock offs. It all depends on what your doing and who your clients are.


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## kendal69

Jay Ashworth said:


> So, kendal: your incidence of "luminaire fails *during a customer event*" has been low enough to make that a sensible approach?



My theory is solely based on math. I have ordered 24 10 watt LED pars three times and get 100% non failure rate. Now after my guys toss them around drop a pipe and base with 4 LED pars on it, yes the lights fail, any light would. I have also ordered two moving head ( famous name clone ) and one worked the other flawless for years. Again Rather than spend $4,000.00 I only spent $385.00, so the failure doesn't bother me as I make enough actual profit by buying these lights dirt cheap and renting them all day long, that the loss doesn't even figure. That only happened once in buying upwards of 300 lights by now. They way it's been working for me is if they fail they fail after a dozen uses or so and that failure rate is small. After that the failure, rate is due to abuse etc. on my guys part. 

I just donated a dozen lights to a local high school drama department that I purchased a decade ago and the school was glad to have those bright "1W" led lights. So those ar ethe oldest lights I have and were still running strong. 

The added benefit of buying large lots of cheap lights automatically gives you a large about of parts when and if lights fail, if one wants to repair. I don't repair I just throw them away as time is worth more than buying a new light. 

I will add this, I ordered some name brand lights from a big name brand manufacturer and I got a 10% failure rate, granted they warranty repaired the light, but still, failure happens with everyone. Really no name brand manufacturer has any more "control" over production that I do. No one is sitting next to the Chinese worker and making them build any one light better for them. Sure that Chinese company has a lot more to lose stiffing a big guy than me, but I'm convinced all the lights are coming off the same line any way. 

I had one job that was critical, and the 10W Led lights would burn 8 hours a hay for 4 days ( that would scare anyone with any light ) so I brought in the 24 lights, and I had a fresh 24 lights as back up - I never needed them, but as suck a little investment it was insurance. When I buy lights at 10% of retail I can afford to have backs up on top of back ups. 

Now I'm not "pushing" the use of Cheap Chinese lights, but just what works for me. When I went buy a new board, I took my chap Chinese light to see if the board would talk to the light. The guys at shop were STUNNED at what I paid for the 10W LED par in a cast aluminum housing. Like they said, they couldn't even buy the housing for what I paid for a working light. I think they wanted to see if they could break my light to prove a point - they lost. I'm also not denying any name brand company from making huge profits, they deserve it for advertising, support etc.

i elect to be my own warranty department....I just buy another light. Think about this, after warranty from a major mfg is over, I need to send it in to a repair facility. By the time I send a moving head in for repair, I have to pay shipping BOTH WAYS, tech time I think is nearing $100.00 or more ( well deserved by the way ), plus I need to pay for parts, ( a simple motor is $100.00 ) and I need to wait a week or two. So I would be into a repair nearing $400.00. I just bought a name brand clone with shipping for the same price and it will be here Tuesday. We all know most problems happen the day the warranty ends any way, plus often times you fight with the manufacturer as they will say - SORRY you abused the light. 

Now lets talk about service. I can order lights from ( insert brand name here ) and I usually get - "We're out of stock and, will have more in two weeks" . When I order from China on a Thursday I'm unboxing the lights on Tuesday - better service than from Amazon.


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## kendal69

techieman33 said:


> If your going along with your lights all the time that can work for you, or if you renting to smaller clients. There are a lot of clients that would laugh at you and hang up the phone if you told them you didn't really have sharpies, you had chinese knock offs. It all depends on what your doing and who your clients are.



Smaller clients, funny, I did 85K last week what did you do? Don't try and demean my business by insinuating "smaller' clients to justify your ignorance on the value of Chinese lights. 

Number one I've been in business for 25 plus years using theatrical lighting for the corporate market and NO ONE has ever asked me what lights I'm using, who makes them, etc. They only thing they ask is I want the room BLUE, or RED etc. So do you want to know who's laughing - ME. When I go up against a company that specs out Shapies and bids against me, they LOSE every time. I'm laughing alrigh....... all the way to the bank. Whatever they charge for a moving Sharpie I can beat them HANDS DOWN. I can also Triple hang my lights as insurance where as the Shapie guy could never afford to do that. 

Now I get you may be from the music industry whereas name brand lights from anal LD's is the norm. I'm from the corporate industry and they could care less, and 100% of the people I deal with think a Sharpie is something you write with. Sorryy to burts your bubble on the laughing comment. ...well nah I'm not really. 

Who's the customer going to buy from when I tell them I will do 10 moving lights and the the Sharpie guy says he's do three both for the same money. Don't kid yourself. In the real world more is better. 

I will bet any amount of money that the average person in the audience or corporate client can never tell the difference between a Sharpie Clone of a Sharpie. Plus like I said, I get paid after every event, and the customer is happy enough with my Chines lights that they book me again next year and one last week asked if I would do their Vegas event next year. 

Listen I get that all the LD lighting nerds go apoplectic at the mention of Chinese lights, but I've got over a decade of using them successfully, and I can guarantee I make more money at my shows that the Sharpy guy is making - do the math. The market will only bear a certain amount for lighting - that's fact. 

Some day, you will wake up and realize it truly is about making money, not using brand names.


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## Wood4321

Something I don't think anyone has mentioned, and I find very important, is the existence of a UL or ETL Listing on any device I purchase. I understand the likelihood of a piece of equipment melting down over an audience is very low, but If it happens, I don't want to be held liable for knowingly using an unlisted piece of equipment.
Plus the piece of mind that is provided to myself by using listed equipment well outweighs the price difference. 
Then again, I do touring shows, and I find that the cheaper fixtures don't always hold up in my environment anyhow, listed or not. (Hell, the big boys lights fail too when they are rode hard and put away wet)


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## josh88

kendal69 said:


> Smaller clients, funny, I did 85K last week what did you do? Don't try and demean my business by insinuating "smaller' clients to justify your ignorance on the value of Chinese lights.



The whole point of ending his post with "it all depends on what you're doing and who your clients are." was saying that not everybody's clients would be happy with Chinese fixtures but that some (as your case illustrates) are. I'm in a place where the people coming through my space would never know the difference, but the rental house in town wouldn't think about keeping anything like that in their stock.


Via tapatalk


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## Jay Ashworth

Ah... I see it now. 

For the record, Kendal, corporate does indeed have much looser constraints (and often, much more money) than theatre, which is the context in which most of the people in this thread/on this forum are evaluating these value judgments.

If that's working for you, go with that. But I understand that we call it gambling, because sometimes you lose. And in theater, it's often not cost effective to triple hang a show for that.

Sent from my SPH-L720


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## Jay Ashworth

Sigh. "But understand"

Sent from my SPH-L720


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## kendal69

josh88 said:


> The whole point of ending his post with "it all depends on what you're doing and who your clients are." was saying that not everybody's clients would be happy with Chinese fixtures but that some (as your case illustrates) are. I'm in a place where the people coming through my space would never know the difference, but the rental house in town wouldn't think about keeping anything like that in their stock.
> 
> Yes. and my point was in contrast to that comment of not every comment, with - EVERY client I have had in the last decade - 1) Did not know or care who made the lights, and 2) every customer has been EXTREMELY happy with the Chinese lights. In fact, much more happy when I was using Chinese LED lights before anyone else was selling them in the USA, and I was able to do endless colors with ON E light.
> 
> Furthermore No matter who's name sis on the fixture, components are being made in China. Sure you have companies that "manufacture" in other countries, but look inside the light and the components are from China.
> 
> You can bet you're driving in a car that has parts made in China, John Deere tractors the good ole boy tractors have components made in China, as do most tractor builders like CAT. Ships, planes, trucks, cars all have parts from China. So what makes China lights so taboo, when everything else made in China is just peachy?
> 
> I'm not trying to convince anyone or argue, but I will stand up and show another side of all the "cheap Chinese light bashing"
> 
> Via tapatalk


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## kendal69

Wood4321 said:


> Something I don't think anyone has mentioned, and I find very important, is the existence of a UL or ETL Listing on any device I purchase. I understand the likelihood of a piece of equipment melting down over an audience is very low, but If it happens, I don't want to be held liable for knowingly using an unlisted piece of equipment.
> Plus the piece of mind that is provided to myself by using listed equipment well outweighs the price difference.
> Then again, I do touring shows, and I find that the cheaper fixtures don't always hold up in my environment anyhow, listed or not. (Hell, the big boys lights fail too when they are rode hard and put away wet)



Yes both big boy lights and China lights fail, they have to everything fails some time. I've taken apart $3000.00 par lights and $300.00 par lights and if I put all the parts on a table anyone would be hard pressed to tell me what came from the big boy light and the Chinese special. I'm getting 3-5 years of abuse from mine and to be honest the industry changes to fast to even keep them that long. If I was paying $3K for ea. for ea. of my lights I doubt I would ever make a profit before I would retire them for a newer mode. The way I do it, is I purchase a gang of lights at 1W, then the big change was 3W, then a whopping 5W, then 10W, now I just ordered 15W pars. Could anyone imagine spending $20-30K a year on lights to upgrade to the new model. 

I feel sorry for the guys I see in the locations I work at still using 3W led's that they paid 3K for years ago because they can't afford to change to the newer 15W lights. 

UL is not the holy grail to the quality of a product, that's quite arrogant. CE is the gold standard in Europe and they could care less about UL. I feel quite confident with *CSA,* or *CE approvals and with the manufacturer I purchase from, they are willing to get UL approval as long as I pay for it. That stamp will still not make the light any better, or fail less, or last longer.*

*I can say this fro safety and UL. I have seen more UL traditional light EXPLODE on set that any LED light ever made. The LED lights have many fuses that trip over and above the incandescent lights that were wire to bulb only. *

Take a look at the back of a Chauvet light ( big boy ) and all you see is CE approved - same as the back of all my Chinese lights. If it's good enough for all of Europe and Canada, then it's good enough for me in the USA.

Here's how proud Chauvet is that their light meets CE approval....CHAUVET | News | newsletter, news, stories, installs calendar, LED lighting, tech tips, new product, product releases, product, newsletters, business newsletter, internet newsletter, magazine, e-news, e-newsletter, shows, scrapbook, photo album, photos, | CHAUVET® Lighting

Personally I have never purchased a light from China that does not meet CE approval, you know that same approval Chauvet demands. 

Still not convinced - how about SHARPY ( another big boy ) , also CE approved. Clay Paky - Sharpy


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## kendal69

Jay Ashworth said:


> Ah... I see it now.
> 
> For the record, Kendal, corporate does indeed have much looser constraints (and often, much more money) than theatre, which is the context in which most of the people in this thread/on this forum are evaluating these value judgments.
> 
> If that's working for you, go with that. But I understand that we call it gambling, because sometimes you lose. And in theater, it's often not cost effective to triple hang a show for that.
> 
> Sent from my SPH-L720




Lets dissect some things you just said. " it's often not cost effective to triple hang a show" Theater used to ALWAYS triple set, they had to, when gels were the norm ( RED GEL, GREEN GEL, BLUE GEL etc. so that argument does not hold water. My triple set comment was tongue in cheek to the people that feared Chines lights failing, my suggestion, hang an insurance light - heck hang three if it makes you feel better. 

If I feel the need and something was mission critical I would hang "insurance lights" just like I would bring in "insurance" lighting consoles, just like I bring "insurance" generators that sit idle, insurance lap tops etc. Anyone who doesn't bring back up equipment, no matter who makes it, or how dependable it has been in the past is simply a fool in my opinion. 

OK so if I understand you correctly and you may be a theater guy/gal, and you have huge "star" singing the main number for the show and you have ONE light on the star? Seriously, that is ludicrous. Let me repeat myself here ALL EQUIPMENT FAILS. 

Now lets dissect the cost effectiveness. Hanging three ( tongue in cheek) $385.00ea. moving head clones. Hanging three Chinese clones is far far far less money than hanging (1) big boy brand name light. Total cost triple hanging ( tongue in cheek ) only cost $1,155.00.Hanging ONE big boy light is $4,000.00. Chances of THREE Chinese lights going down during any one show in inconceivable. 

So having said that - tell me again how it's NOT cost effective? I'm scratching my head in confusion. 

Lastly, please don't think this site is primarily / predominately theater people. The people that visit this site all from all walks of lighting - including manufacturers quite often are here. 

The thread was started and quipping about "cheap" lights, others chimed in about Chinese lights. That's how threads work, develop and transform, and that includes every thread ever posted on the internet and about any subject.


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## Jay Ashworth

FTR: I'm pretty sure that if you hang non UL listed fixtures, and the building burns down, you're buying a building. And with that I'm out.

Sent from my SPH-L720


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## DavidNorth

Chauvet also has MET and the Sharpy has ETL. These are both US-based safety testing services based on UL requirements. CE is very different than UL and the two are nowhere near interchangeable. The electrical safety requirements for things such as fusing, creepage and clearance, and wire size are more stringent under UL. A CE listed product is not a free ride out of a liability issue as far as an AHJ or fire inspector is concerned.

Perhaps this will help clarify a few things and allow people to knowledgeably choose their own direction as desired.

David


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## Wood4321

kendal69 said:


> Yes both big boy lights and China lights fail, they have to everything fails some time. I've taken apart $3000.00 par lights and $300.00 par lights and if I put all the parts on a table anyone would be hard pressed to tell me what came from the big boy light and the Chinese special. I'm getting 3-5 years of abuse from mine and to be honest the industry changes to fast to even keep them that long. If I was paying $3K for ea. for ea. of my lights I doubt I would ever make a profit before I would retire them for a newer mode. The way I do it, is I purchase a gang of lights at 1W, then the big change was 3W, then a whopping 5W, then 10W, now I just ordered 15W pars. Could anyone imagine spending $20-30K a year on lights to upgrade to the new model.
> 
> I feel sorry for the guys I see in the locations I work at still using 3W led's that they paid 3K for years ago because they can't afford to change to the newer 15W lights.
> 
> UL is not the holy grail to the quality of a product, that's quite arrogant. CE is the gold standard in Europe and they could care less about UL. I feel quite confident with *CSA,* or *CE approvals and with the manufacturer I purchase from, they are willing to get UL approval as long as I pay for it. That stamp will still not make the light any better, or fail less, or last longer.*
> 
> *I can say this fro safety and UL. I have seen more UL traditional light EXPLODE on set that any LED light ever made. The LED lights have many fuses that trip over and above the incandescent lights that were wire to bulb only. *
> 
> Take a look at the back of a Chauvet light ( big boy ) and all you see is CE approved - same as the back of all my Chinese lights. If it's good enough for all of Europe and Canada, then it's good enough for me in the USA.
> 
> Here's how proud Chauvet is that their light meets CE approval....CHAUVET | News | newsletter, news, stories, installs calendar, LED lighting, tech tips, new product, product releases, product, newsletters, business newsletter, internet newsletter, magazine, e-news, e-newsletter, shows, scrapbook, photo album, photos, | CHAUVET® Lighting
> 
> Personally I have never purchased a light from China that does not meet CE approval, you know that same approval Chauvet demands.
> 
> Still not convinced - how about SHARPY ( another big boy ) , also CE approved. Clay Paky - Sharpy



Well, theres always one in a crowd.

Yes, a stepper motor is a stepper motor. The differences between an CE/ETL/UL listed piece of equipment will not be visible to the naked eye. (props for figuring that out by yourself)
The differences are in the tolerances the high voltage components such as power supplies, ballasts and such are manufactured to.
For a simple comparison, here is a non-theater link that explains the differences.
Note that the non apple charger carries the same listing marks as the real version.

(Yep, sorry I missed CE in my first pass, I shouldn't have missed it as the company I work for owns over 100 CE S4 Pars for use in Europe)

If you honestly believe your 300$ LED lights from china are CE listed, I have a bridge to sell you, or perhaps some nebraska ocean front property.
Take a look at this site, and see if you find your product. CE Marked Manufacturers Directory | CE Marked Products Directory

Also, I haven't been saying anything about Chauvet, while they are on the cheaper end, they get listed as anyone who wants to sell in the reputable global market should.
I don't usually use them on my shows, as I don't always find them tourable for years at a time. But from a safety standpoint, I would have no problem with them.

Sorry for the snark, but What the f***!?, I am tired of the continual "knock offs are the way to go" mindset from some on this board.
Anyhow, I agree with Jay, I'm out of this thread.


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## DuckJordan

While the cheap LED and movers have some use, The liability of using those fixtures, and something catastrophic failing (and I'm not talking that they stop working, I'm talking they fall from the air or cause the building to burn) will fall directly on you. There is no going to the manufacture there is no saying its CE certified. In the US you must use a US certification of electrical safety. Without that its your head on the chopping block. I'm working on a show right now THERE ISN'T SPACE FOR A SECOND FIXTURE TO COVER THE FIRST IF IT FAILS. In that situation you would be stupid to use a "Backup fixture" also a call to replace that fixture after the show would be in the 4 hour range... Now add labor up. Say you charge $25/hr per person. Lets say you can do it from a genie and need minimal people so lets say 6 people, 6x30 is sitting at 180*25 puts you at 4500 so now that 300 dollar light is now sitting at a $4800 light. Now yes it can happen with a "Big Name" brand light but the chance of failure after being used is much lower.


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## kendal69

DavidNorth said:


> Chauvet also has MET and the Sharpy has ETL. These are both US-based safety testing services based on UL requirements. CE is very different than UL and the two are nowhere near interchangeable. The electrical safety requirements for things such as fusing, creepage and clearance, and wire size are more stringent under UL. A CE listed product is not a free ride out of a liability issue as far as an AHJ or fire inspector is concerned.
> 
> Perhaps this will help clarify a few things and allow people to knowledgeably choose their own direction as desired.
> 
> David



WOW I better stay out or the rest of the world and only stay and use USA UL products because the rest of the world used CE only.


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## kendal69

Wood4321 said:


> Well, theres always one in a crowd.
> 
> Yes, a stepper motor is a stepper motor. The differences between an CE/ETL/UL listed piece of equipment will not be visible to the naked eye. (props for figuring that out by yourself)
> The differences are in the tolerances the high voltage components such as power supplies, ballasts and such are manufactured to.
> For a simple comparison, here is a non-theater link that explains the differences.
> Note that the non apple charger carries the same listing marks as the real version.
> 
> (Yep, sorry I missed CE in my first pass, I shouldn't have missed it as the company I work for owns over 100 CE S4 Pars for use in Europe)
> 
> If you honestly believe your 300$ LED lights from china are CE listed, I have a bridge to sell you, or perhaps some nebraska ocean front property.
> Take a look at this site, and see if you find your product. CE Marked Manufacturers Directory | CE Marked Products Directory
> 
> Also, I haven't been saying anything about Chauvet, while they are on the cheaper end, they get listed as anyone who wants to sell in the reputable global market should.
> I don't usually use them on my shows, as I don't always find them tourable for years at a time. But from a safety standpoint, I would have no problem with them.
> 
> Sorry for the snark, but What the f***!?, I am tired of the continual "knock offs are the way to go" mindset from some on this board.
> Anyhow, I agree with Jay, I'm out of this thread.


==================================
Well no one more snaky that me because I'm just as f*** tired of China bashing when people are just spewing talking points. I use and have used most brands since the early 70's, yes that makes me an old man, but one with far more experience than many here. I also get tired of people crying chicken little, the sky is falling on Chinese products. IF these products were as bad as people here seem to think they are why are they selling their product all over the world to the tune of BILLION of dollars in product and I have yet to hear on one " TEXAS CHAIN SAW MASSACRE of exploding lights?

Yes I found my manufacturer listed thanks for your concern - so now they pass the test, they are now initiated into the good ole boy CE club, they can now hang with the big boys because they're listed, Now and ONLY now they are A-O-K

Anyone that knows anything about Chinese importing knows for $39.00 you can get a certified audit report from an independent company - you may have heard of them - ALIBABA. My company is verified at selling 600 MILLION dollars of "Chinese junk" every year, so I guess if it was really JUNK they wouldn't sell so much of it now would they?

Like I said no one is saying "knock off" are the way to go. My argument always has been wake up - knock offs are not what people spewing talking points, who heard it from a friend, who read it on the net etc. I'm giving real world experience on the knock offs and have had none of the horror stories people are whining about here. Quite the opposite, I'm quite pleased with the product and have a new style mover coming in this week to test before I place a large order. 

Listen I get that everyone here that spent 100K on lights and will take 5 years to make a nickle and are PO'D that I can use a knock off and make money on the first rental. Oooops sorry for you and those that want to justify spending 100K. 

So really tell me how " touring is sooooooooo different than corporate gigs. Corporate gigs are every third night, Corporate gigs light for big starts in private parties, Corporate gigs have millions of dollars on the line id the lights don't work. 

Tourable for YEARS at a time - WHY??????. New lights come out every year who in their right mind would WANT to use an antiquated light for years. Lights are like computers and iphone, their life span is short, so if people are using lights for years, then they are not giving their customers the latest and greatest, who could no one can afford 100K in lights every year. I CAN afford to buy the latest and greatest as I've shown with an order of 15W LED that ARE NOT a knock off since I know of no USA company making them. Not every Chinese light is a knock off.


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## headcrab

So buying Chinese fixtures works for you. Fine. It doesn't work for others, for whatever reason. Also fine.

This thread doesn't seem to be productive anymore. Can we end the flamewar?
Buy the hardware that's suitable for your application, and on with your life.


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## soundman

Tonight is my last night in Beijing after three weeks of loading in a show. I am dealing with motor package but I can share the woes the LX crew has faced and I have a few reasons to not buy Chinese lights... 
The plot is 40% VL 3ks and the rest subbed in knock offs. total just shy of 200 moving heads. These note are from the first 3 weeks of load in / focus. 
The local crew is droping about 4-6% of the Chinese lights a night after programing. Labor is cheap so thats not a big deal. What is a big deal is the time the director wastes reprogramming lights that have been swapped to make up for offsets in the hanging position. 
The dimmer techs have to let the local lights home, strike and warm up before powering on the rest of the rig because when the local lights home and strike they send nasty harmonics out if causes the rest of the rig to wig out. If a service goes down during a show how will it effect the rest of the rig when it comes back on?
The optics are crap compared to the 3Ks which are how many years old now? Its near impossible to get a nice hard edge on a gobo without it getting blue for a portion of it and brown for the rest. 

Most of my work is in concert touring, Chinese lights turn up as truss toners or set lighting. Things that get trashed and are thrown in for free on a rental. To hang a full rig of them would add another tech to the tour. Chalk at 8 load in rigging and LX at 9 ready for backline to load in at noon doesnt leave much time to be roping in lights or letting a rig soak in the test cue to see whats broke that day. Adding a tech will cost production north of 5K a week by the time the rental house marks up for their taxes, fees, and profit margin and the PD and hotel the tour would have to provide. That is the same cost as adding another truck. Ask any PM what he would rather do and the answer is always more trucks. 

What works for one market might not work in another. If cheap Chinese lights were the answer to concert touring PRG, Upstaging, Christie, and Solotech would be bidding against each other to buy by the container.


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## techieman33

And don't forget that without Vari-lite, Martin, Clay Paky and the rest there wouldn't be any fixtures for the fly by night chinese companies to make bad copies of.


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## jstroming

I agree with you kendal69. So many people bashing chinese lights, eventually they'll lose business to people like you and wise up! Year after year they gain acceptance. Albeit slower in the US, it is still happening. Much faster in other parts of the world.

Understand many people arguing with you aren't running businesses, they're designers or tech people responsible for fixing the lights. Of course they want the "best" and easiest! Not the cheapest. If the roles were reversed you'd want the easiest lights to deal with or the ones that will make your show look the best. Frankly I don't know why the heck they want to be on that side of the fence, but to each his own!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## LavaASU

Wow, this got nasty fast.

I have used various chinese LEDs. They have their uses... if you need to throw a whole lot of light and you don't care about potential video flicker or dimming curve, they're great. I'm surprised they work so well for corporate as I know most of mine flickered quite bad on video. That said, I've used them with great success for stuff like bands (flash and trash), uplights, ect. Regarding the group I mostly used them with, the general policy was equipment was not left plugged in unattended for safety reasons. Never had any issues though-- lights failing, sure... lights failing dangerously I've seen a clay paky (caught on fire) and a HES intellibeam (shocked a tech) do it but none of the Chinese ones...

That said, theres a LOT of uses I don't think Chinese lights are great for. A china special is NOT a VL3500.


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## jglodeklights

I'd argue that in theater we actually don't have the space to double or triple hang instruments. I don't mean just on our pipes, but also our arbors and the weight they can support. Movers are usually used as specials, or to create template washes. We really don't have the space with our conventionals and the set to put two in each spot we use them. 

And yes, we sometimes only have one fixture, no matter what it is, lighting an actor.


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## Tex

jglodeklights said:


> And yes, we sometimes only have one fixture, no matter what it is, lighting an actor.


Sometimes we even do it on purpose.


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## Jay Ashworth

What the optimal solution is is not always obvious, and depends very much on the target environment.




Sent from my SPH-L720


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## Dionysus

kendal69 said:


> WOW I better stay out or the rest of the world and only stay and use USA UL products because the rest of the world used CE only.


I'm in Canada and I have to say that is not the case here. UL is no-good it needs to be CUL, CSA, etc. there is a list of acceptable and not acceptable certifications. I've seen events shut down by ESA (Electrical Safety Authority) inspectors for not having "stickers" on some of their gear.
I'll happily use a cheaper Chinese knock off, especially for smaller gigs, community theatre, corporate etc. again won't see them used with bigger bands for music events.
Certainly won't see anything without proper approval stickers on the unit on any gig getting an inspection.

At one summer festival I routinely do I saw an inspector about to make us take a rack of amps off site and fine us because their stickers were missing. Luck ally I was there (and knew the inspector) and talked him into letting it slide (was a very well known brand).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Chris15

Controlbooth's Core Values (FAQ [HASHTAG]#15[/HASHTAG]: Core Values | ControlBooth)

> The cornerstone of our community is mutual respect between members. We pride ourselves in having a mature, civil, yet fun atmosphere where members are able to debate their differing opinions without resorting to flame wars. Our community enthusiastically welcomes new members, and we are always eager to offer helpful advice to both the novice and seasoned veteran alike.



While we respect the right of everyone to hold their own opinions, this thread is moving nowhere helpful.

Thread Closed.


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