# Line array?



## Anonymous067 (Oct 18, 2008)

What would be a couple good line array options for a venue sized with about 800-1200 people?


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## soundlight (Oct 18, 2008)

Question: Why line array?

My personal recommendation would be the QSC Wideline 10 array, appropriately sized (I've only had experience with them outdoors, not indoors, but they sound pretty **** good). Really wide dispersion pattern.


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## Anonymous067 (Oct 18, 2008)

Why line array?
Idk. I was bored and I'm curious what a line array for the price would cost, since I run shows for about that sized stuff occasionally, but using large flown speakers, but not line arrays.

I was at a large festival, where they crammed about 3000 people into a tiny gym, and they had line array speakers with a symbol on the bottom corner with three squares and circle all formed like a square (if that makes sense)...(idk what brand these things are) these things sounded AMAZING. Not to mention their subs were about as tall as I am. 6 foot or so.

So I was just wonderin.


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## Anonymous067 (Oct 18, 2008)

ALSO: I'm not very familiar with amping of cabinets such as line arrays? I know they get bi-or tri-amped...what about the qsc wide 10 or 8...do they use that kinda amping? if so, what kinda amp are we talking about.


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## Eboy87 (Oct 19, 2008)

D&B AudioTechnik. d&b audiotechnik - Start. Most likely J series. That's some serious money, but they do sound fantastic. 

Just be aware that a line array is not always the solution to a given problem. It's simply one of many tools to get the job done. What are the dimensions of the room you want to use this in? Why go for a line array over point source if the point source has been working fine for you?

Beyond that, there're plenty of systems out there to choose from. As for amping, RTFM.


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## DaveySimps (Oct 19, 2008)

It is very difficult to say, since you do not give the relative dimensions of the space. Line arrays are not ideal for every application. In many instances, there are better choices. 

That being said, some line arrays I have had great expirence with are Meyer Milo and Melody, adn L-Acoustic Kudo.

~Dave


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## museav (Oct 19, 2008)

Indoors or outdoors? If indoors, what is the space like? What is the audience area like? What's the budget? What output and/or response? Do you have any specific requirements like cardioid subs or variable horizontal patterns? Flown or ground stacked? Any physical limitations such as trim height or maximum array length?

Also keep in mind that what you were hearing when you heard the d&b array was not just the speakers, it was the overall system, how the components were applied and how it was operated. You could hear the same system misapplied, with improper processing and with a poor mix and think it sound terrible. Not saying that there aren't significant differences between models, just that the end result is due to a lot more than just the speaker model or brand used.


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## Anonymous067 (Oct 19, 2008)

museav said:


> Indoors or outdoors? If indoors, what is the space like? What is the audience area like? What's the budget? What output and/or response? Do you have any specific requirements like cardioid subs or variable horizontal patterns? Flown or ground stacked? Any physical limitations such as trim height or maximum array length?
> 
> Also keep in mind that what you were hearing when you heard the d&b array was not just the speakers, it was the overall system, how the components were applied and how it was operated. You could hear the same system misapplied, with improper processing and with a poor mix and think it sound terrible. Not saying that there aren't significant differences between models, just that the end result is due to a lot more than just the speaker model or brand used.



Would be (in my dreams) for an outdoor tent. None of this will ever happen, I'm just learning.

And yeah, I know that what I hear is the whole system. I'm a sound engineer.

But, I could defiantly tell that those speakers were helping everything out big time.


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## Anonymous067 (Oct 19, 2008)

Eboy87 said:


> D&B AudioTechnik. d&b audiotechnik - Start. Most likely J series. That's some serious money, but they do sound fantastic.
> 
> RTFM.



Thats em!
What are we talking for a three arrays of 6 of these (LCR)?

Forgive my stupidity, but what is RTFM?


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## TupeloTechie (Oct 19, 2008)

Blah067 said:


> Forgive my stupidity, but what is RTFM?



"Read the Freaking Manual"


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## TimmyP1955 (Oct 19, 2008)

RTFM = Read The _Friendly_ Manual


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## waynehoskins (Oct 19, 2008)

I haven't done many outdoor gigs, but what I've seen quite a bit is 9 V-DOSC a side with 6 or 8 subs a side. They make a series of power amplifiers to match them, and probably a system processor too. 

Meyer make some really nice loudspeakers too, most of them self-powered.

As price goes, I'm not sure what normal street price on line array elements is, but a quick look on Solaris showed 16 elements of Mica with caster frames and such listed for 114K. But Mica is probably a bit small for outdoors, and that doesn't include subs.


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## Eboy87 (Oct 19, 2008)

Once you start getting into Meyer, D&B, and L'Acoustics, you start talking serious money. They sound fantastic when deployed and used properly, which is the key phrase. If the system the OP posted in the other thread is indicative of your budget, these are out of your league price wise. I don't have exact figures on street price, but they easily get into six digits. But, and I must stress this, line arrays are not always the right tool for the job.


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## Footer (Oct 19, 2008)

Eboy87 said:


> Once you start getting into Meyer, D&B, and L'Acoustics, you start talking serious money. They sound fantastic when deployed and used properly, which is the key phrase. If the system the OP posted in the other thread is indicative of your budget, these are out of your league price wise. I don't have exact figures on street price, but they easily get into six digits. But, and I must stress this, line arrays are not always the right tool for the job.



Plus, you need the rigging/motors to get them off the ground. If you ground stack them, you might as well do standard stacks.


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## Eboy87 (Oct 19, 2008)

And points to hang said motors.


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## avkid (Oct 19, 2008)

Eboy87 said:


> Once you start getting into Meyer, D&B, and L'Acoustics...


 You should be talking to me.


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## museav (Oct 21, 2008)

Just an example from a recent project of why there is no simple answer. We started this project with a 'short list' of speakers that the end user felt would be acceptable due to tech riders, etc. So there's one criteria and because of the acts they hosted, that eliminated many products as options. Then we modeled numerous of the viable options using the manufacturers' software and EASE. We started with one specific solution in mind, which happened to be L/C/R d&b Q series arrays, as being our first choice. However, even working with the manufacturer, due to the audience area that had to be covered and the physical limitations of where we could locate the speakers, the predicted results with this solution did not turn out as well as we had hoped and the facility management facility was very unhappy with the aesthetic impact the arrays would present. So after taking all the relevant factors into account, and budget was actually not even one of them, and looking at the predicted results both technically and aesthetically for numerous options including both arrays and traditional trap boxes, one other specific product stood out as being the best fit for that particular application. But change just one or two of the factors involved and we might have come up with a totally different solution. So at least when addressing installed systems, the optimal solution is often very specific to that project and can't really be generalized.

I was helping out at a concert last night (Every Avenue, The Maine, Mayday Parade and All Time Low - along with 1,000 screaming teenage girls) where Danley Sound brought in a rig of their boxes just for the one show, around 105-106dB (SPL, A-weighted, slow) at the mix position during the acts and every time the kick drum hit it set of car alarms in the parking lot across the street! Anyways, there were several experienced audio people there and at one point we started discussing touring versus permanent installs and we all agreed that there are distinct differences in some of the goals and what is considered an acceptable result. The system used for that show was very well received by everyone but none of us involved in permanent installs would have accepted the performance in a permanent install. For touring aspects such as ease of rigging, transportability, the ability for the system to be modified for different venues and so on often take precedence over goals such as even coverage and intelligibility. You also typically have a limited time to adjust and tune the system. For installs it is almost the opposite, you can focus on issues like coverage, fitting the specific venue and even aesthetics and can spend all the time necessary to optimally tune the system. Just one example of where the application affects both the products and systems that might be seen as the optimal solution.


> And yeah, I know that what I hear is the whole system. I'm a sound engineer.
> 
> But, I could defiantly tell that those speakers were helping everything out big time.


Chances are they were also using d&b amps, which incorporate processing and protection made specifically to match the d&b arrays. d&b offers a matched system encompassing the processing, amplification and speakers, this takes a lot of guess work out of the equation and simplifies the system adjustments and tuning. The d&b boxes sound good in general but this approach really optimizes the results achieved for many people. The results have been so well received that L-Acoustics now offers a similar solution and Nexo is in the process of offering their take on it.


Line arrays are widely misunderstood and the nomenclature widely misapplied. I do not consider myself an array expert, but I have learned quiet a bit from people who are. The amount of marketing B.S. is amazing and knowing how arrays really work and their limitations is critical to effectively applying them. For a simple example, how many people look at the manufacturers array software and think about the fact that most of them address only the vertical coverage and that you still have to think about the horizontal aspects?

Oh, and ground stacking line arrays can actually be quite effective in specific applications. It can work well in bowl or stadium type scenarios and can provide a narrower vertical pattern where you have a lower ceiling height and a live room. You can sometimes even design the array to have multiple lobes for things like a main floor and balcony situation.


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## Anonymous067 (Oct 21, 2008)

Wow, this really took off.

For the record, I'm not considering (and never really was) line arrays for my system or any system in my near future. Just a hypothetical question of price for a 1000 person arena. Thanks for the input!


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## museav (Oct 22, 2008)

Blah067 said:


> Wow, this really took off.
> 
> For the record, I'm not considering (and never really was) line arrays for my system or any system in my near future. Just a hypothetical question of price for a 1000 person arena. Thanks for the input!


I probably got a bit off track but the main point is that there are a lot of factors beyond the 1,000 people that could significantly affect the answer. It is sometimes surprising how one particular specific requirement or condition can have such an impact on the viable solutions and the related budget. Sometimes a couple of dB more output or a bit longer distance to cover can easily double the cost.

It also depends on what you consider a "line array". An actual line array is a true line, theoretically an infinite line, and it doesn't curve. Most 'line arrays' as applied are not a true line array for the entire array or over their entire bandwidth and many systems such as the JBL VRX900, Nexo GEO S, d&B Q series, Meyer M'elodie, etc. are actually curvilinear arrays rather than true line arrays. So although the generic term "line array" is often still applied, if you mean a true line array system that would technically eliminate these curvilinear arrays.


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