# Building A Booth



## mjw56 (Oct 5, 2009)

Hi everyone,

im looking into making a booth out of an existing room in the back of our auditorium which appears to have originally been a projection room/ticket booth. the walls of the room are 8" CMU and 1 wall carries the joists of the 4'deep spot booth above. i want to put in a 4'x8' window so the SM, light board op and myself ( i am the stage crew moderator) can see comfortably out to the house and stage. im not worried about the structural or layout aspects of this project as i am a co-op @ a structural engineering firm, my problem is the music department head. we tried to get something similar to this done when the new chairs were installed but he didn't go for it. i don't think its that he doesn't want the booth i think its just that he doesnt want to have to deal with the additional thing going on in the department. (he is also the director of 4 different bands and the producer for both annual shows). How do i get him to let me do this project??


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## Footer (Oct 5, 2009)

Do a search for building a booth. You are going to need more then just working at a design firm before you go cutting holes in walls.


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## mjw56 (Oct 5, 2009)

i should have clarified that the engineers are all available for help and calcs, and i am a structural engineering student in my junior year @ drexel university and after re-rereading my initial post see that that portion is poorly worded. it should say that the structural and layout aspects are well taken care of by myself and a number of licensed PE's


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## Footer (Oct 5, 2009)

I thought you were in a High School situation, hince the answer. If you got all the engineering taken care of, I would do up some drawings and get a cost estimate. I would also write up a formal proposal about why/how you are going to do this project and the benefits it will provide. Have your university maintenance dept take a look as well. I am not sure if you are private or public, but that can affect how this work has to get done. You could have some union issues as well if you want to do it yourself, if you can at all.


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## derekleffew (Oct 5, 2009)

mjw56 said:


> ...i want to put in a 4'x8' window so the SM, light board op and myself ( i am the stage crew moderator) can see comfortably out to the house and stage. ...


A 4' high window seems unusually tall for a control booth. What is exactly a "stage crew moderator" and what function do you perform in the booth during a show?


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## mjw56 (Oct 5, 2009)

thanks that does help a lot. make a sales pitch!
but just to clarify some more, im @ drexel, and on Co-op at an engineering firm, and i moderate a group of high school students. i graduated from that high school in '06 and started moderating there in late 2007. no students will be doing any work on the opening in the CMU or the reinforcement going in place. frankly i just dont trust them to get it right or that it will look good if they do it and i cant afford to do it twice.


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## mjw56 (Oct 5, 2009)

as to what a stage crew moderator does, i take the design concept and make blueprints for building, i manage all the construction and costs (but don't directly have the power to say "ok spend the money"), watch out for the safety of the students, i give technical advice to anyone who wants it, i help build and give direction on how to use tools. and most importantly keep the students out of trouble and from killing echother. what i don't do is design the lights. basically u name it, i do it. my function during the show is to provide emergency tech advice and to again generally over see the students. and to put out fires (literally, exploding spot bulbs and a floor covered in sunflower seeds don't mix)

the 4' high window was really just an arbitrary number, first 4x8 is the same size as a piece of plywood (to lock up the opening), and between the double 2x12 header going in and the 4' hight of the window i can remove all the block up to the joists and not have to deal with blocks falling out of the head while im trying to install and ill have a sill roughly 3' off the floor


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## Footer (Oct 5, 2009)

Is this a public school you are helping at? Are you paid staff or a volunteer? There are some huge issues with knocking holes in walls in a public school situation without pulling the proper permits and have the proper labor in place. If it is a public school, I doubt even if you are qualified you could do the work yourself. Added to that, you still need to consider power requirements in the room, dimming/audio connections.... etc. I am not saying it can not be done, but you need to go through the proper channels beyond the guy who is in charge of the music dept. When I was TD at a public school, the head of maintenance would have had my head if I knocked a 4x8 hole in the wall.


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## mjw56 (Oct 5, 2009)

First its a private school and the maintenance staff consists of 2 guys who could care less. the music department head has final say over what happens in the auditorium also. 
on to technical requirements though, the dimmers ( 4 leprecon VX2400 racks in a permanent install) are already in place on a platform backstage (about 9' off the ground where the old Frankenstein light board used to be) that has a 3phase 400 amp service. the light board (ETC expression 125) is already back there( where i want the booth). i want to move the com system power supply back there as well and add an IR cam for use as a green room video feed and so we can see in the dark better. i dont think were adding much to be worried about power but there is a sub-panel in the room with 3 or 4 slots open to tap. and before anythone says anthing about opening up panels i also worked for an electrician doing service installs ( 200 amp is the largest ive ever done). the music director doesnt want to move the sound board in there but im leaveing space for that too. 

i feel like im missing things that should also be in the room but i cant think of what. so if u have any ideas or more concerns throw them out there.
oh and im paid but im not on payroll. i get paid out of the operating account.

thanks for all the help and ideas so far.


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## wfor (Oct 5, 2009)

Sound board inside rooms=bad idea.

You can't hear anything...
A lot of new installatiosn sink them right in the middle of the house.


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## museav (Oct 5, 2009)

I see what you want to do, but not why. I assume you have been operating without this space and if you read some of the other threads here regarding booths you'll find many people trying to get out of just such spaces. There may be good reasons for doing this, it just not clear what you are really trying to accomplish and that would probably be the first aspect to address in 'selling' the concept to anyone. You have to establish and communicate the need for and benefit of something first. What problems would the booth resolve or what new capabilities and benefits would it provide? Show that the potential benefit justifies the potential cost both financially and in any associated effort, inconvenience, etc.

Assuming you are at the main Philly campus (Mandell Theater ?), there are probably many code and ordinance restrictions on what has to be done and who can do it, potentially in regards to both licensing and perhaps Union affiliations. A couple of issues that are commonly overlooked without an Architect involved are how opening up the Auditorium wall may affect fire ratings, you are effectively putting a big hole in the 'shell' of the Auditorium, and what may be required for ADA compliance. Depending on the age of the space and modifications could even run into asbestos or historical issues. And there may be practical considerations such as whether the booth requires ventilation or even a separate heating and cooling unit on a dedicated thermostat to handle the potential loads and off hours operations. And of course, moving the lighting console and comms as well as provisions for the mixing console into a new location could entail significant infrastructure (conduit, power, etc.) revisions or additions.


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## mjw56 (Oct 6, 2009)

The booth is not going in @ drexel its going in @ Camden Catholic high school, and from past experiences having nothing to do with the theater, projects don't have to get bid on or done by union workers and the building isn't leased. the reason i want a booth is first to make a sort of Brain for the auditorium, a place where a few key personel can sit and run the show. i hope it will also fix a heirachial problem we have been having. our current system of an SM, asst. SM and Right and left wing captains leaves rightwing kind of mnagement heavy (the SM has been running things from RW). i figure by moving the SM to the booth, he will be closer to all the tech for calling cues (our com system sounds like **** and is hard to hear on some stations) and able to manage and delegate (VS. doing it himsel). ill have the ASM oversee most of the things happening on stage, and the wing captains managing their individual crews. i know it souds like alot of management but the titles keep people happy and having a feeling of responsibility which helps alot when something needs to get done. the students dont get anything in return for their wok ( i would say something about pride but they all have this i dont give a **** attitude) im working on trying to make stage crew fulfill their arts elective or service hour requirements but as for now titles and t-shirts are all i have to work with.


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## museav (Oct 7, 2009)

The code and ordinance issues would likely still apply. For example, the perimeter of a public assembly space often has to be a one or two hour rated construction, if it turn out that the wall you are considering knocking a hole in is a rated wall then it would lose any rating. It might also be that converting what has apparently been unoccupied space into occupied space will require other changes (sprinklers, accessibility, ventilation, etc.) to be code compliant. Maybe you already have people involved, such as a licensed Architect (many of the potential issues are Architectural and not Engineering related), who can assess and address all such issues but I was trying to identify that they do need to be addressed.

I think that this may be the type of issues you need to address up front, not necessarily the answers but that these issues will be addressed, to let the people in charge know it is being handled and there will be no nasty surprises that they then get dragged into later on.


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## mjw56 (Oct 7, 2009)

the school was completed in '60 or '61 and the audiriu, was completed in '62 and there's no sprinkler system in the entire school so....

From what i can tell the original intent of the room was a projection booth (the wall in question currently has 3 really small windows about 4 SF total and are trimmed in wood). so i grabbed my NJ building code 2006 and checked it out

Section 409.2
Every projection room shall be of permanent construction consistent with the construction requirements for the type of building (occupancy class A-1) in which the projection room is located. openings are not required to be protected.
The room shall have a floor area of not less than 80 sf for one machine and not less than 40 SF for every additional machine. ........ The projection room and the rooms appurtenant thereto shall have a ceiling height of not less than 7'6". the aggregate of openings for projection equipment shall not exceed 25% of the area of the wall between the projection room and the auditorium. openings shall be provided with glass or other approved material, so as to close completely the opening. ( the ommited portion speaks about distances between projectors)

ok, with hthat info-dump behind us, the first paragraph says the opening can be open and the second says it must be closed. any ideas??? and based on wall measurements of 8x12 i can have a max opening of 4x6(24 sf)

also, table 601, an interior bearing wall of type 1 construction must have a 3hr fire rating. the same wall in type 2 construction requires only a 1 hr fire rating. so does anyone know the difference between type 1 and 2 construction. (they are both completely made of noncombustable materials).

the room also contains 2 singlepane 1/4" glass ticket windows so while the room has not been occupied for quite a while the original design showed it as an occupied space.

so if anyone knows the answer to any of theese questions and whishes to share that would be great. but in the meantime i think i will assume the worst and figure out what a 3 hour fire rated opening is made out of. thanks for everyones help.


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## Footer (Oct 8, 2009)

Film projectors were notorious for catching on fire. Essentially projection booths had to become a firebox. One of the venues I work at here in NY has a projector room with working projectors and drop doors above each "port" with heat sensitive links. So.... fire=doors drop. If the room is still deemed a projection booth you can not open it up as it currently stands.


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## museav (Oct 8, 2009)

Fire ratings and such are not where you want to guess. You might want to check with the local code and planning officials as to whether any approvals, permits, etc. might be required as those may in turn require stamped drawings. You might also want to discuss the fire issues with the local fire officials, they are the final arbiters.

The points you bring up show some of the potential issues. I don't know what the code requirements were for Projection Rooms back when the building was built but they likely have changed. For example, in 1962 there were probably no requirements for sprinkler systems but any renovation or changes could require bringing everything up to current codes and that may require adding sprinklers or improving wall constructions. I'm also not sure how current code might differentiate between a dedicated Projection Room and a more multipurpose Booth. Accessibility also often also has to be addressed in any renovations, the ADA was not around in the early 60's. Ceiling tiles and flooring containing asbestos were common in that period so if you plan on tearing up the floors or ceiling that could be a factor. The same for lead paint on the walls since you plan to cut into them. All of these are why you really want to get someone familiar with such renovations involved to at least identify what factors nay have to be addressed. I have seen many 'small' theatre renovation projects end up investing more effort and money on these types of issues than on the primary aspects of the renovation, I've also seen such issues delay or even terminate renovation plans.


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## tjrobb (Oct 8, 2009)

Type 1 versus type 2. While this can vary based on which code you use, the basics are relatively straightforward.

Type one- MAXIMUM passive fire protection. We're talking 3 or 4 hour rated walls, ceilings, etc. Think OCD bunker building. Not seen often except where really large buildings are needed or where extreme fire hazard is present. I don't think you can build with anything other than concrete due to the requirements.

Type two- a little less insane, but still 2-4 hour ratings on all walls, ceilings, etc. Allows (sometimes) concrete-cased steel and similar items. Much more common than T1, if only because of price.


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## mstaylor (Oct 10, 2009)

I don't know the local code, may be tougher, but in many areas the need to bring the room to code is a tied to a percentage of remodel. If you exceed a certain percentage you have to bring everything up to code, sprinklers, wiring, fire ratings, all other related codes. It is something you definitely need to check locally.


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## mjw56 (Oct 12, 2009)

the auditorium seats about 1000. the columns are all on the perimeter of the surface of 1 flange of all of them is exposed. the roof is supported by 40" deep Bar joists and the ceiling is approximately 1" of plaster. none of the steel is fireproofed. all the doors are hollow steel there's so fire curtain, no smoke doors in the roof just exit signs and fire system strobes. so I'm guessing its type 2. and the room constitutes 1% of the space


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## tjrobb (Oct 13, 2009)

Forgot a quirk: steel over 20' from the floor doesn't need fireproofing (usually).

Hmmm, what you are talking about (exposed steel to grade level) is type 2 - 000 according to the NFPA. Inherently fire-resistant (the steel part), but without any actual fire rating. Strangely, I have no idea how a 1000-seat theatre would EVER get away with not using a type one building. Then again, you did say it was 3 or 4 decades old.

Thank goodness you are under 50%. That is the breakover (again, NFPA) to deny grandfathering you in. And with >300 seats... that would have meant sprinklers!


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## gafftaper (Oct 14, 2009)

MJW you may be able to structurally design and draw it up but you really need to the help of someone familiar with the local codes and permit process. Any advice you get here is going to have a high degree of speculation because we don't live there. I suggest you get in touch with a contractor who does remodel work on large public buildings. You should be able to find one who knows all the local code and is willing to help you design it properly and give you a price quote for the job in the process. 

As for your original question. Do the legwork to find out how it can be done and how much it will cost. Put together a nice looking proposal explaining why it is important along with the How and How Much information. Try to get the music teacher's support and if you can't get it go directly to the principal or whatever board is really in charge. 

I have to agree that it's not a good idea to move sound in there. My new theater has sound in a great looking but fully enclosed space with only a 4'x5' window. If I can just _barely_ hear the audio it's perfect inside the theater. If it sounds loud enough to me at the console, it's blasting the audience out. Running sound inside an enclosed booth is like running lights with a paper bag over your head.


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## mjw56 (Oct 14, 2009)

im not gonna move sound in to the booth. it was just something i was thinking about a while ago when i was still a student there and didnt know much about anything. i still don't know much about sound frankly...but don't really want too. there are so many issues i have to deal with already.

seeking the help of a local contractor is a good idea and i think i know a few who might help out. 
we got approval to build the booth as an eagle scout project. they will want all sorts of references as to who is being consulted for what and their qualifications so the BSA will have their butts covered.
i guess i should be able to talk to the architect for the diocese about all this. but of course the boyscout will have to do all the talking and setting up meetings and stuff.


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## gafftaper (Oct 16, 2009)

Sounds like you are well on your way. Be sure to stay on top of the permits and the Fire Marshall's approval. You can be in a world of pain if the Fire Marshall decides he doesn't like your work and wants to shut down the theater until he is happy.


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## CBR372 (Oct 16, 2009)

Talking about projection booths turned into lightboard booths... the college im going to has this large theatre (about 900 seats or so) and its booth used to be a projection booth... so it is lined with steel... and it has a bathroom!!! and the old reel tables are still in there... nice storage for my backpack and laptop when i'm programming cues!


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## museav (Oct 16, 2009)

That probably goes back to the days of nitrate or nitrocellulose film. Used up until the early 1950's, nitrate film base was very inflammable and difficult to extinguish, thus areas where it was stored and worked with had to be highly fire resistant. Today, a cinema has to be certified to show nitrate films, primarily archival films, including many special precautions involving the projection booth and the projectors themselves.

This is also why I often see issues with asbestos in projections rooms, many older 'fireproofing' methods, even into the '60's, utilized asbestos so it is not unusual to find asbestos containing materials in the wall, floor or ceiling surfaces in older projection booths.

I believe that the bathroom was from the days when you had Union projectionists and manual changeovers, it was provided so the projectionist could answer nature's call without missing a changeover or any other manual operation. Of course, the risk of fire with nitrate film stock, which can spontaneously combust, also made for a good reason to have someone in the booth at all times.


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## mjw56 (Oct 20, 2009)

the school has an asbestos inspection every year and the only place it exists in on the exhaust from the backup generator way in the back of the boiler room. but because i like my lungs cancer free. i put on a mask and knocked out one of the small windows to look down the wall. found nothing but pieces of mortar.
myself and the LD (also not a student) have begun to put together a loose spec for the job so the boyscout has something to work with in building his for the job. were not assembling a book. just a mental list of material and hardware. as for the window i was thinking of getting something like this.

http://www.crlaurence.com/crlapps/s...upID=9469&History=8777:8812:8898&ModelID=9469

but with a full bottom rail.

we want to be able to button up the window cause the kids sometimes get a little loud. but i like that it can be opened up for tech week so the ops can hear.

any opinions on windows. whats worked, what hasnt??


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## mjw56 (Oct 27, 2009)

Well just in case anyone was wondering. The Eagle Scout Project to build a booth has been approved by the school and the students troop committee. He goes before the BSA council for final approval tomorrow.


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## mstaylor (Oct 27, 2009)

Sounds like an excellent Eagle project. My son and nephew are both Eagle scouts.


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## mjw56 (Oct 28, 2009)

Myself and the LD are both Eagles and one of the seniors just earned his a few months ago. its nice to have a few scouts around working on things, even if they cant tie a bowline behind their backs.


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## mstaylor (Oct 28, 2009)

My son earned his Eagle rank and his black belt at fifteen.


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## mjw56 (Apr 17, 2010)

Necropost... i know
But anyway
so the booth is structural complete and it turned out ok. pictures will follow eventually. so now its time to put in all the stuff i can possibly think of. Unfortunately the Band director/Producer/head honcho thinks the pass thru that got put in is big enough to move sound into the booth, he didnt think so 6 months ago (eyes roll, sigh). so im going to install alot

Express 125 light board
24channel Mackie sound board
16 channel digital board (dont know the maker)
2 Computers (one for the projector and one for audio stuff)
Wireless mice and keyboards with under desk trays
LCD monitors (for each computer and the lightboard
projector screen controls
2 channel headset system
2 CD players 
recording device
God mic with 2 channels( one to speak to the house and one to speak to the green room)
2 filing cabinets
internet connection with wireless G/N and 4 port switch
dimmered booth lights
booth speakers with and independent volume control
2 video and audio lines up to the tv Studio with monitors in the booth
Green room cam with monitor in booth
7' rack to put most of this stuff in
couple power conditioners

so my question to all of u is what have i missed, name anything at all. im going for wish list here so i can plan now for future expansion

thanks all


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## museav (Apr 18, 2010)

mjw56 said:


> But anyway
> so the booth is structural complete and it turned out ok.




mjw56 said:


> so my question to all of u is what have i missed, name anything at all. im going for wish list here so i can plan now for future expansionl


Maybe I am misunderstanding the situation, but shouldn't this type of planning have occurred prior to constructing the booth? For example, looking at you list I see two audio consoles, a lighting board, a camera, two computers with keyboards and mice and several monitors. Have you planned for counter space for all of this? Have things like the dimmable lights and power for all the gear been incorporated into the booth design and construction? Have you addressed conduit or raceway for all the connectivity noted?

As to your question, it is a bit difficult to respond when we don't know what the booth space is like (size, counter space, etc.) or what infrastructure you incorporated when building the booth or how you plan to use the booth. Basically, we don't know much about the existing facility and use or the vision for both, which makes it difficult to say what might be missing. Here's some examples:

Communications for a Green Room would typically be handled via the production communications system, however you note a separate 'god' mic for that purpose. Is there a reason specific for this requirement? Would planning for an expanded comms system make sense?

You note both a 24 channel analog console and a 16 channel digital console. Whether it is two independent mixes or might be replaced by a larger console in the future could factor into any comments.

Since you apparently have a projection screen and you note a projector computer, what about other video sources, source switching, the projector, control of all of these, etc.? Does the booth need to accommodate any of these?

Do you have a cabling path to the TV Studio? What is the purpose of monitoring that signal? Do you need to communicate with them?

What about wireless mics? If you have both the SM and the sound tech up in the booth should the wireless receivers, or at least some way to monitor them, also be located in the booth?

Is there any storage other than the two filing cabinets? Might the booth be used to store wireless mics, comms bodypacks and headsets, cables, mics, etc.?

That's just a few examples, but the gist is that one has to know where you are and where you are trying to go before they can offer useful directions.


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## JChenault (Apr 19, 2010)

If your sound guy is going to be doing any live mixing ( and given your equipment list, I expect that he will ) 

1 - try to convince the band director that putting the sound mixing in another acoustical space where he cannot hear what the audience is hearing will not work very well. There is a reason that you see mixing consoles in the orchestra. How would he like to conduct an orchestra from the next room using a TV monitor?
2 - Set up any cable runs, etc so that when the facility comes to it's senses and decides to move the sound equipment to a location where the operator can hear the sound that it is easy to do so.


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## mjw56 (Apr 19, 2010)

thanks for your responses.

the audio consoles have been inserted into the design. i had a long conversation with the band director about this when i started designing and he said that he will never put audio in a booth so my window is only really big enough for 2 people plus Light op and board. he took one look at the finished window and said hes gonna move sound in. this throws my original design for a loop.

So, Proxima projector is hanging from an electric over the house, source switching will be from the projector itself. we dont do anything complicated enough to require on the fly switching.

power is adequate the 100 panel in the room has 4 slots open and only runs small lighting loads.

Mic recievers and amps are backstage in a custom built rack.

we dont have a production communication system, didnt know they existed, so i figured i would use a couple of board channels or rig something up.

the 2 boards will likely become one larger board, ive heard rumors.

i know i can get a wire to the studio but adding a line for comms is a great idea i would have missed . they use a compatible system so they should just be able to plug in (using the studio will be rare, likely only to live mix graduation to the over spill room)

the green room cam is already mounted to the back wall near the ceiling
video monitors would just be nice i guess

we have space for 2 8' tall racks plus a 2.5'ish deep counter (shallow i know, its controlled by door swing)

the room overall is 14' wide by 6 deep with a 5'8" opening in one long wall and a 3' door centered in the opposite wall. one end of the room has a small electrical panel and a ticket window so were loosing 2' there, mkaes the room effectively 12'x6'

i asked for pictures from the kid that did the project but i havent gotten them yet. 

i hope what ive explained helps

thank you.


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## mjw56 (Apr 20, 2010)

Well its not pretty at the moment but hopefully in a couple months it will really take shape.


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## museav (Apr 21, 2010)

So it serves as both Tech Booth and Ticket Window? I might try to separate those functions, I just imagine someone trying to read will call lists and talk to people while someone others are trying to run a show.

That also gets into a trade off with having sound in the booth. When you mix from the booth you want as much opening into the performance space as possible so that you can hear something resembling what the audience hears. However, if you have a large open area and have the lighting operator, SM and others in the Booth then you may have issues with patrons seated near the booth potentially being distracted by the related sounds and activities in the Booth. In retrospect, it might have been better to put in a fixed window to help separate the production activities (the SM calling cues and so on) from the audience space and to have the audio mix position out in the house.

I'm also trying to understand how a fold-up plywood door and a ticket window with openings in it provides the necessary smoke and fire separation. It may indeed do so but it just seems odd.


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## mjw56 (Apr 21, 2010)

I cant move the ticket sales, they were sold through the booths dutch door, which i really hated. The ticket window area will be closed off by a piece of 50% fullness black traveler(that the last show decided was ok to cut in half lengthwise) so that should help with sound and light spill. The opening pictured was supposed to get a nice aluminum framed insulated tripple slider....but the scout doing the project turned 18 2 days after finishing his project and the school let him install that crappy fold up instead so he could get the project done. we did a little test of how far sound travels out of the booth with no soundproofing installed and quiet conversation carried about 15 rows out (were only 28 rows deep). smoke separation would have been taken care of with the window i spec'd for the project but i already explained that. and the ticket window is original to the space (built in 1960).


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## DuckJordan (Apr 21, 2010)

it looks to me like a very failed, attempt at a school keeping budgets to a minimum. The plywood door is not code, and if that window is not original i am betting the student on the project did not put a header in. also the whole idea of ticket sales going in with booth with absolutely no SOLID separation is a big no no, unless you plan on cutting ticket sales as soon as the show starts (it can get very noisy and hard to hear a show when you have ticket people selling tickets while a show is going on behind them). also i would definatly point the noise issue out to the director because honestly if you are going to put all the time in to building a booth. don't force the audio person to stick to a room that will honestly sound nothing like the actual room.

Quick story, went to a show in the area (wont say the name of the production) but during intermission (it was beauty and the beast musical) i heard the sound board op come out of the booth and ask the SM if they heard any squealing out of the PA system. I, being a sound guy myself, quickly turned around and asked the op why he had to ask. He responded with, the director said the booth was distracting audience members from the show because of the window being open. So upon that sound should never be located in a booth unless you have 100% certainty that the sounds are all recorded, they will always be the same out of the device you are sending out of. That means if there is any chance there is going to be live mixing involved (NO BOOTH). and yes the PA was HOT (squealed louder than a pig).

So that brings me to the curtain thing, it may just be our curtains but any black curtain i have seen in our space sheds some black... fibers after a little while which will give everything in the 5 foot vicinity a nice dust of black fibers... so putting a curtain in that space may be a problem. 

as far as room goes, it doesn't look like you'll have very much room in that space for all the devices your planning on puting in there... also have you considered ventilation, i know that our small black box booth has a vent but guess what its almost an air tight room so awesome job on putting an output vent in the room but hey, there is no circulation (room is probably 20 cubic foot and its roundish so no luck putting a flat table in the dang room (another rant for another thread).

My suggestion is good equipment just try to explain to the director as best as possible that sound should always be out in the audience (yes it takes seats but its better to take 5 seats now than wait after a few shows of it being out of the way and you having 20 empty seats because the sound is horrendous.


QUICK THOUGHT:

If sound was out of the booth running the show with tickets would be much more feasible.


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## mjw56 (Apr 22, 2010)

A double A36 C8x11.5 is cut into the block behind that 1x12 on the wall there and is bearing on concrete filled block all the way to the slab the wall is on, or else that 1x12 would have been 1x4. i designed that header and opening and again DID NOT spec a plywood fold up. the window i spec'd for his project is linked to earlier in this thread.

And i PROMISE i don't want sound in the booth and know its bad. but its not my final decision.

Would a black curtain that has been hanging for about a decade still shed those fibers? 

we don't really sell a lot of tickets after the show has started so its not a problem, usually the sales person leaves 15min after start along with the ushers and we just let the few stragglers in (its catholic school so nobody really cares about 1 or 2 tickets)

Ventilation is also a good point. there was a really bad draft in the room before this project started, so bad in the winter we lined the whole room with 2" blue Styrofoam and duct taped all the joints, and it was still cold.
ill add a small bathroom fan to the list and see if the space needs it when were done.


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## museav (Apr 22, 2010)

mjw56 said:


> And i PROMISE i don't want sound in the booth and know its bad. but its not my final decision.


I think the point is that we are trying to give you something to take to the parties who do make that decision and show that this is not just your supposition, but a real concern voiced by others based on experience.


mjw56 said:


> Would a black curtain that has been hanging for about a decade still shed those fibers?


Would is also still be fire retardant?


mjw56 said:


> Ventilation is also a good point. there was a really bad draft in the room before this project started, so bad in the winter we lined the whole room with 2" blue Styrofoam and duct taped all the joints, and it was still cold.
> ill add a small bathroom fan to the list and see if the space needs it when were done.


Did you had a Mechanical Engineer involved in the booth design? It is an occupied space and has to provide appropriate heating, ventilation and cooling for both the equipment and occupants.


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## DuckJordan (Apr 22, 2010)

i know it sounds like we're jumping down your throat over this booth, but the fact of the matter is we are trying to help keep your costs low. a huge fine for not having it done right (which would probably happen next year), is going to cost a lot more than what we are saying. also its all about helping so sorry if I sound like I'm coming on a bit harsh but I have had to change things in our booth because of fire code and everything else and it ended up costing us a lot more than we wanted to pay.


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## mjw56 (Apr 22, 2010)

I thank everyone for their concerns about the soundboard in the booth and probably have plenty of testimony from the 1st 3 pages of this thread.

Did a very quick search a couldn't find how often draperies need to be retreated. When i did les mis we used erosion cloth everywhere. We soaked it in some fire retardant chemical concentrate. Is this adequate to retreat?

there was no mech.engr. involved because its an existing space...that wasnt a closet previously. i have a feeling that when the school was built there was insulation above the ceiling but was removed a looong(decades) time ago. probably when the crew broke out the backwall of the spot booth for some storage space. 

i really am not in touch with all of the technical advancements of the type of equipment im trying to get together here. iget that a 24x cd rom is better than an 8x but why one sound board is better than another. something about op-amps ? among other things. i was hoping that this community could take a look at the list of stuff i want to put in a recommend specific brands or models that achieve those ends. i don't really care how expensive it is because i really just need a benchmark for what is high quality.


P.S. ( took a while to get this post out, didnt see duckjordan's last post while i was writing) thanks for the code concerns. im really gonna try to get a real window in there but like i said i can beg and plead all i want and i may not get through to him...then it will be on the school. myself and the scout are covered as the principal wrote a letter stating that the project requires no code review. so that's on them, even so i would not be happy if a problem did arise. also the small 18"x18" window is gonna get bricked up, or a piece of plexi glass but it is gonna get sealed in some way


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## museav (Apr 22, 2010)

mjw56 said:


> there was no mech.engr. involved because its an existing space...that wasnt a closet previously.


However the occupancy of the space apparently changed in both the function and the quantity of occupants and that is what makes the determination in what is required. The impact of this can go also beyond code requirements, for example because they may be used at any time including when the theater itself is not in use, it is pretty common to treat areas such as booths as independent zones for HVAC, access control and other building systems. Code may not require this but it may be desirable to maximize the functionality of the space.


mjw56 said:


> i really am not in touch with all of the technical advancements of the type of equipment im trying to get together here. iget that a 24x cd rom is better than an 8x but why one sound board is better than another. something about op-amps ? among other things. i was hoping that this community could take a look at the list of stuff i want to put in a recommend specific brands or models that achieve those ends. i don't really care how expensive it is because i really just need a benchmark for what is high quality.


Maybe I missed something, but I did not see much tech equipment in your list that wasn't already identified or assumed to be existing (or needing to be compatible with existing). I saw things like filing cabinets and room lights, which seems unrelated to equipment recommendations. I saw the Express 125 light board and Mackie console, which seemed to already have specific equipment selected. And I saw items like the screen controls that seemed to relate to other, likely existing, equipment. Perhaps you can clarify which items for which you are looking for input.

"High quality" is dependent upon the references used and can be very subjective. And budget is a major factor in assessing the value of anything. Without some reference of what you would consider 'high quality' and financially viable, along with some knowledge of the functional requirements, there is minimal basis for recommendations other than people basing their comments on their perspectives and their situations.


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## mjw56 (Apr 22, 2010)

Specifically im looking at (trying to be all rack mount): 
--2 Computers; we have one but there is not much room inside to expand to a couple hard drives or a high end sound card. and its very weak in the processor and ram.....its old

--Monitors and keyboards; this wont need much attention but if u have a monitor u hate cause the contrast blows or something similar throw that out there

--Projector screen controls; we have a 3 button control in the wing but can we have another one in the booth as well? this is the topic i know the least about.

--we have the headset system already but may need to replace it if the humming doesn't go away. i think the circuit its on, grounding(or the lack thereof), and its proximity to the dimmers, isnt helping any. some packs are very loud and others cant be turned up enough

--2 CD players; they can be 2 players in one unit. i saw the numark CDN22 MK5 and thought that was nice.

--Recording device; i saw one that will record directly to an ipod which is cool, but then i need an ipod and that will grow legs after a while. im looking for a fair amount of direction here too

--God Mic; im sure there is come kind of real (read not jury rigged) system to accomplish this end.

--Power conditioners; Any that stink? any u like in particular?

--Cable; when connecting all these components should i make my own cables (quad-shield coax and compression connectors ie. RCA/BNC/RG5somethin) or buy from a store pre-terminated. what are the functional differences between cat 5,5e and 6 which should i use?


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## Footer (Apr 22, 2010)

mjw56 said:


> Specifically im looking at (trying to be all rack mount):
> --2 Computers; we have one but there is not much room inside to expand to a couple hard drives or a high end sound card. and its very weak in the processor and ram.....its old
> 
> --Monitors and keyboards; this wont need much attention but if u have a monitor u hate cause the contrast blows or something similar throw that out there
> ...



Computers are so commodity products these days, buy what you can afford. If you are going to be doing any type of audio or video editing get as much ram as possible at least an i5 processor. Get dedicated graphics and the biggest hard drive you can put in. Dell makes good computers. I would not build your own these days. 

Projection screen controls are proprietary to your screen, contact that manufacture. 

Odds are your headset system is fine but your cables have issues. Anytime there is a hum in a system 99% of the time it is a bad cable somewhere in the system. Try disconnecting your power supply from the system and connecting 2 belt packs to it directly and see if the hum is there. 

CD players are also commodity products anymore. Do a search, we have beat that one to death. 

Best way to record is to go straight to a hard drive. You can either do this with a USB/Firewire interface and a computer or a dedicated hardware recorder. Most people anymore record straight to a computer with a hardware recorder for backup. Depending on what you want to do with these recordings changes what you would use to do the recording. There are also units that will go straight to CD. 

What you want this "god mic" to do?

Anything Furman for power conditioners is usually a good bet. 

I would not build your own cables if you can avoid it unless you really know what you are doing. Cat5e is fine if you are not going to be going above 100mbps. If you are wanting gigabit speeds, go with Cat6.


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## zuixro (Apr 22, 2010)

Footer said:


> Dell makes good computers. I would not build your own these days.



Personally, I hate Dell. I wouldn't do anything but build my own (especially if you want to go rack mount). It might be more expensive, but you will be able to pick out the specific parts you want for the specific purpose. I haven't looked at Dell's website lately, but I doubt they let you pick out the specific speed ram you want.


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## DuckJordan (Apr 22, 2010)

zuixro said:


> Personally, I hate Dell. I wouldn't do anything but build my own (especially if you want to go rack mount). It might be more expensive, but you will be able to pick out the specific parts you want for the specific purpose. I haven't looked at Dell's website lately, but I doubt they let you pick out the specific speed ram you want.



You're both right, it depends on how well you are educated in computers. If you know what you want to do with it and know how to get to that end, by all means it is generally cheaper to build it yourself. 

I live in South Dakota. I can get all the parts for a computer (same ones dell use, except the case) for cheaper, put it together and save about 50% of the cost that dell charges. when you buy from dell you pay for the service of not having to know how to put a computer together.

so long story short if you know about computers and have built computers in the past then by all means build your own, But if you haven't then I would go the route of dell or any other computer manufacturer.


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## Footer (Apr 22, 2010)

zuixro said:


> Personally, I hate Dell. I wouldn't do anything but build my own (especially if you want to go rack mount). It might be more expensive, but you will be able to pick out the specific parts you want for the specific purpose. I haven't looked at Dell's website lately, but I doubt they let you pick out the specific speed ram you want.



Ya, you can geek it out all you want, but in reality it does not really matter that much. You can select specific memory speeds if you so desire, but they will usually give you the fastest possible for the mobo. 

I am the first person that will say you should build your own, but if the OP does not know what cat5e vs cat6 is, I don't think he needs to worry about matching processors, ram, etc. Rack mount is nice, but I think it is not necessary in this situation. It would double the price for no benefit because the computers are never going to move. 

With the build your own you are the support. Thats great if you know what you are doing, not great if you don't. Just today we had a tech out to repair MrsFooter's laptop because of a video error. I called them yesterday at 4pm, they had a tech at my door the next day at 1pm. He swapped out the parts and it did not cost me a thing nor did I have to take her computer anywhere. All this on a laptop that we bought for $450 dollars. That type of service is unheard of with most computer companies, including Apple. 

If you want to build your own, go for it. Your really not saving any money by building your own anymore like you used to. You usually get a better machine in the end, but all in all for a production/show critical machine, I always buy.


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## mjw56 (Apr 22, 2010)

thanks

i want the "god" mic to be able to address the house and stage during tech week ("HOLD").but also be able to talk to the greenroom and dressing rooms without talking to the house for in-show cues to the cast, i know this may seem redundant with the camera but students are off in their own world when their not on stage. i was thinking some kind of mic for a school PA where the principal hold the button down to speak, but with 2 buttons ( one for each area)

the computers don't _have_ to rackmount. i think 2 large towers would still sit side by side between a pair of rack rails. the school has a mostly full time IT guy. i have resurrected a few computers and done some ram upgrades myself but have never delved into processors or motherboards.


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## Footer (Apr 22, 2010)

mjw56 said:


> thanks
> 
> i want the "god" mic to be able to address the house and stage during tech week ("HOLD").but also be able to talk to the greenroom and dressing rooms without talking to the house for in-show cues to the cast, i know this may seem redundant with the camera but students are off in their own world when their not on stage. i was thinking some kind of mic for a school PA where the principal hold the button down to speak, but with 2 buttons ( one for each area)



Thats a general paging system. Usually a paging system is installed that feeds backstage/dressing rooms/green room/box office so the SM can make calls. The talkback mic used during tech is usually a separate system using some type of switched mic. Its plugged into the sound system and left on. It is possible to route it all through your sound system, it just depends how sound gets backstage. Its best though to have a monitor/paging system to be completely separate from the sound system. That way, the operator does not have to think about it and it always works.


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## mjw56 (Apr 22, 2010)

Making sound sound good is not my forte but, assuming i have 3 rooms (all within 75' of each other and about 160' from the booth) each with one speaker (maybe 2 in the green room since its so large), say this speaker( Opentip.com: TIC Corporation Indoor/Outdoor Speakers, Home Theater Speaker, Electronics & Computers ), and a pair mounted directly outside the booth tucked under the overhang from the spot booth, ill have to include an amp and a small mixer. since this set up is in no way attached to the rest of the audio system how would that work. 2 outs from the board? 2 amps?


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## museav (Apr 22, 2010)

mjw56 said:


> --Projector screen controls; we have a 3 button control in the wing but can we have another one in the booth as well? this is the topic i know the least about.


If the existing screen control is a 3 button low voltage control and not actually switching the AC power then you would typically be able to add a second switch or tie it into a control system. BVut without knowing what you actually have I can't say for sure.


mjw56 said:


> --we have the headset system already but may need to replace it if the humming doesn't go away. i think the circuit its on, grounding(or the lack thereof), and its proximity to the dimmers, isnt helping any. some packs are very loud and others cant be turned up enough


Can't offer much input without knowing what you have, how it is wired, etc.


mjw56 said:


> --God Mic; im sure there is come kind of real (read not jury rigged) system to accomplish this end.


Based on your subsequent description it sounds like you are looking for two different things; a talkback mic and a back-of-house paging or comms system. The back-of-house system doesn't necessarily have to tie into the house system and can be separate from it although you may want to provide a program audio feed.


mjw56 said:


> --Power conditioners; Any that stink? any u like in particular?


What do you mean by "power conditioner"? A lot of the cheaper 'power conditioners' are basically plug strips with some MOV based surge suppression, they are not conditioning anything and the surge suppression capability decreases almost every time it suppresses a surge. For surge suppression I prefer SurgeX. Computers, DSP, digital consoles, etc. may be best served by also being on a line interactive UPS.


mjw56 said:


> --Cable; when connecting all these components should i make my own cables (quad-shield coax and compression connectors ie. RCA/BNC/RG5somethin) or buy from a store pre-terminated. what are the functional differences between cat 5,5e and 6 which should i use?


Unless you are making a large number of cables or have the tools and want the practice, making your own cables is probably inefficient.


One suggestion is that before you start selecting specific equipment try documenting what your goals are and then drawing up a conceptual design for how everything interconnects. Thus will not only help clarify what you need everything to do but may point out some ancillary gear, special cables, etc. that are required.


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## mjw56 (Apr 22, 2010)

The screen control is definitely low voltage, there's a cat 5 wire running to it from a box near the ceiling with what looks like a little radio antenna hanging out and some larger definitely line voltage wiring, i just never really took a look at it because its very much out of the way. 

The comms are a very old clear-com system that probably just really needs to be rewired. honestly i couldne begin to tell anyone how its wired without the both of us standing in the theater. its a real mess, yet somehow makes sense its complicated.

i would like the 2 sides of the paging system to be on the same setup so i only need one mic. and before anyone asks the 2 speakers mentioned in my previous post which hang under the spot booth are there because having tried a talk back in the past, the students on the stage cant hear the main speakers.

in the power conditioner im looking for something that would offer surge protection and maybe clean up the sine wave some. i fear that the dimmers which dont have their own step down transformer (to isolate harmonics in the delta side) may be introducing interference into the electric for the building its only a 48 ch rack of 2.4kVA dimmers. im probably too worried about it but i would swear the comms got worse after the rack went in. upgrading to a ups would definitely be a good thing though.

i do already have a compression connector tool for RCA/BNC/RG59 and stripper and the tool for 6 and 8 pin cat 5 so i should be set, i will probably just make my own runs to the studio as they will be around 200' each and buy the short ones pre-made

im trying to lay this out but its such a small space its difficult to do in 2D and i just dont have the time for 3d models right now. im at the point where im just gonna buy everything a go to town to see what works. thatertech81 is in on this project with me and finishes his show in a couple weeks. then we will be able to really tackle this. he has about a decade more experience than i, hes also the LD at Camden catholic.


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## museav (Apr 23, 2010)

mjw56 said:


> The screen control is definitely low voltage, there's a cat 5 wire running to it from a box near the ceiling with what looks like a little radio antenna hanging out and some larger definitely line voltage wiring, i just never really took a look at it because its very much out of the way.


Screens controls can be direct switching the AC power, low voltage, serial, network, RF wireless or IR wireless. You can also have combinations of these. For example, you could have a screen that has serial control, network control and low voltage control all through one controller. Or you could have low voltage and RF from the same controller. So it really requires identifying just what you have.


mjw56 said:


> in the power conditioner im looking for something that would offer surge protection and maybe clean up the sine wave some. i fear that the dimmers which dont have their own step down transformer (to isolate harmonics in the delta side) may be introducing interference into the electric for the building its only a 48 ch rack of 2.4kVA dimmers. im probably too worried about it but i would swear the comms got worse after the rack went in. upgrading to a ups would definitely be a good thing though.


If transformer isolation of the power or similar is not feasible then a double conversion, online UPS may be the best bet. These always run off the battery and the line power is only used to charge the battery thus isolating you from the incoming power.


mjw56 said:


> i do already have a compression connector tool for RCA/BNC/RG59 and stripper and the tool for 6 and 8 pin cat 5 so i should be set, i will probably just make my own runs to the studio as they will be around 200' each and buy the short ones pre-made


There will likely be many terminations other than RCA, BNC and 8P8C (RJ45) involved.


mjw56 said:


> im trying to lay this out but its such a small space its difficult to do in 2D and i just dont have the time for 3d models right now.


Do you know what single line diagrams are? They are where you lay out a simplified equipment interconnectivity, device A has this output going to that input on Device B, etc. Something like that will help you figure out what physical interconnections are required and whether what you have will work. The latter is especially nice to know in advance.


mjw56 said:


> im at the point where im just gonna buy everything a go to town to see what works.


Well, that is probably not the best way to learn, but it is one way. I just hope you use a different approach with your Engineering career!


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## mjw56 (Apr 23, 2010)

yeah i know. my engineering career is why i don't have time. i have drawn a single line diagram before but like to know what connectors i need and how many of what are on each element, so i can connect everything every which way and know ahead of time how its gonna work, not technically a single line i guess, but i would need to know the equipment to know the connections.


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## Footer (Apr 23, 2010)

mjw56 said:


> yeah i know. my engineering career is why i don't have time. i have drawn a single line diagram before but like to know what connectors i need and how many of what are on each element, so i can connect everything every which way and know ahead of time how its gonna work, not technically a single line i guess, but i would need to know the equipment to know the connections.



Almost every audio company has AutoCAD blocks that you can download and play with connections from one piece of gear to another. That might give you some help.


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## EricE (May 30, 2011)

Yup, I realize this is an old thread, but I'm curious as to how things eventually turned out! Also, for UPS's


museav said:


> If transformer isolation of the power or similar is not feasible then a double conversion, online UPS may be the best bet. These always run off the battery and the line power is only used to charge the battery thus isolating you from the incoming power.


 
Exactly! And they won't be under $500 either! If you have power of questionable quality, they can be worth every penny. That $99 UPS from Staples is a stand-by - it will only kick in when the power really degrades or cuts out. And the switchover time can be too long for some equipment that is sensitive to having clean, reliable power.

Line-Interactive is code for a line conditioner built into a UPS - it's better than a line interactive UPS alone, but if you need to rely on your power output being consistent and clean, the type of UPS museav is talking about is well worth the investment. My favorite manufacturer of these kinds of UPS's used to be BEST power systems - I think APC bought them :neutral:

I've tried a few CyberPower UPS's here recently, and I really like them. I haven't had one truly put to the test yet, but they run cooler and longer than the APC units they replaced and were almost half the cost.


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## mjw56 (Jun 1, 2011)

Its been a while since ive been in the space, like 6 months, but last time i left it this is what t looked like.


As you can see we have replaced the folding window with a 3 pane slider, continued the desk around 1 wall, added a small rack and computer, a television with cable, and are actually using the ticket window again.

This project took a ridiculous amount of work to complete and we managed to do it with the scrap we had lying around the theater and our houses.

Unfortunately after 5 years ill finally be moving to an apartment on campus and very likely wont be involved in the theater program at this high school for quite some time.

The school was supposed to get another Presonus StudioLive 16.4.2. I was supposed to make a desk for the pair of them right outside and under the slider window but im sure that wont happen now either.


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