# Brand Spanking New Theatre Facility



## mbepting (Dec 1, 2014)

Hi all I am new to this forum but I hope to get a nice new thread going here. I am the TD at Wofford College in Spartanburg, SC. We are currently a very small, under equipped theatre but that is all about to change. We have recently been the recipients of a wonderful gift from the Carolina Panthers owner Jerry Richardson of a new Center for the Arts. We are all very excited. The plan is to move into the space by the fall semester of 2017. We are in the very preliminary stages of design right now and I have been spending quite a bit of time brainstorming about everything that I would love to have in this new space. As of now the space will consist of a 300 seat modified thrust and a 2500 sqft black box. The question I pose to everyone is this. What would you like to put in your new "dream" theatre space? Suspension grid? Light board? Sound board? Dimmers? Cool new shop stuff. Theatre architecture. Anything. Everything.


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## AlexDonkle (Dec 1, 2014)

Do you hopefully have a theatre consultant hired onto the design team already? 

Just an FYI, there's been a few similar threads posted in the past that may also be helpful:
http://www.controlbooth.com/threads/new-theater-recommendations.11384/
http://www.controlbooth.com/threads/trying-to-build-a-theater.11507/
http://www.controlbooth.com/threads/your-perfect-venue.6627/


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## TheaterEd (Dec 1, 2014)

Rehearsal Space and more storage....


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## Ric (Dec 1, 2014)

TheaterEd said:


> Rehearsal Space and more storage....


 This, always...
Plan for rooms that have no defined purpose now, and keep them empty all through the design process. One day, probably the day after you open, you'll want the space.


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## Les (Dec 1, 2014)

I wouldn't get too far in to equipment yet - especially lighting/sound consoles. Since this is still a few years away, the best consoles now might be updated by the time you start spec'ing equipment. I would plan for a lot of LED's, data, etc. Just don't get too attached to a particular console just yet.

Also, plan your route from the scene shop to the stage area - both in directness but also in height. Have your roll-up doors as high as possible to accommodate scenery larger than what you think you will need.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Dec 1, 2014)

You should define what you want to do. Types of shows and scale of scenery. Much more constructive approach than how big of door.

Minor note, be sure you can't find storage off site. A couple thousand sq ft of storage is a lighting system or two.


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## mbepting (Dec 2, 2014)

We have theatre consultants on board now, thank god. I am a little concerned about storage space after seeing the preliminary designs. I'm afraid that they are going to design the building to just barely be big enough to hold what the two departments need now and not enough to grow into. As of now we have a decent looking rehearsal space. That is a big priority of ours. Large roll up doors are definatly a must have. Thanks for the input everyone.


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## om4eccv (Dec 2, 2014)

Conduit. Spare conduit between SL and SR, between both sides of stage and your booth. Booth to backstage. Booth to lobby. 
Network and dry CAT5e drops everywhere. 

We opened our own space in 2010, and (thankfully) had plenty of spare conduit in place. We've still had to add a bunch of surface-mount conduit backstage, but nothing that's visible to the public. 

We had a portable PA system we'd setup in the space. Finally did a permanent install a couple years ago - that's what most of the conduit was dedicated for. Since then, we've added guest/touring inputs on the floor below the booth, audio to/from the lobby, a video feed to the house manager and lobby, and an audio feed back to our rehearsal spaces, which get used as green rooms during large productions.


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## Brandofhawk (Dec 2, 2014)

I've been working in three/four new spaces... They all have issues which I will say now. For every issue there IS something nice about the space. 

Two spaces do NOT have bathrooms on the same floor as the stage level, nor do they have a place for a crew room to go to before or after your call / during breaks / etc. Depending on the use of your theatre, this may not be needed. But, if you aren't allowing your crew to go into the green room when there is someone renting the space, they will need somewhere to go on their 15 minute breaks. 

A clear path from the tech booth to backstage. One of them you have to go down a flight of stairs, out the front of the building, back in through the lobby, then back up stairs. But imagine what someone has to do to get to the stage if something goes wrong. That space they don't hire enough people for the shows because budget and trying to attract new people to the space. If someone was hired to be backstage it would be okay because that person can deal with things. 

Upstage, reserve line sets for electrics, know that they will need enough clearance. Don't skimp on linesets upstage if you can help it. A space i'm working in purchased 5 line sets upstage and dead hung 3 pipes for electrics. IT IS NOT ENOUGH. Unless you are willing to hire in a whole crew to work on electrics, you will only be causing continual pain if you dead hang an electric, largely because it will be too tall for a ladder and you will need to go up and down in the genie across the damn thing 10-11 times which sucks when you are alone. 

I've used tension grids before and I loved them - I would put a tension grid over a thrust and a tension grid in the blackbox. That way you can add pipes where needed for lighting or hanging things down. I've been working in a thrust space that they put in 3 catwalks over the thrust and it just doesn't let you do everything you want. In that space, the directors love to have chandeliers hanging down, they love to drop leaves and snow and etc. I would tension the whole thing if possible, if not a catwalk for the "front" light, and a tension over the stage area + 5'. 

With a thrust, you'll want at least two vom entrances that you can get to from backstage and from each other. A trap room would also probably be nice. Steps on each side of the thrust, plus you'll want to purchase the staging option of making it so they can extend to completely flat. 

Make sure there is enough power in your space and plan for _expansion_ Try and guess where you MAY need to go for future needs. There has only been ONE space that I have ever said "there is enough power and lights here." They have been around for 20 years, have electrics 1 - 6, with an A electric for each. Two sets of cyc bays, tons of strip lights, and about twice the inventory of their rep plot. The last show I worked there, we hung "all" of the lights in the theatre, had power to spare in most places. Pulled power for others - but in the end, if the designer said "hrm, I think I'll need a light right there" we could still find one to hang for him. 

A couple of spaces have nice large, easy to access from the stage, lighting and sound storage closets. 

Someone else mentioned lots of rooms for things you don't know you will need - there will be TONS of gear you will acquire over time. Eventually, you will not know where to shove all these marbles in your 300 seat bag. This can include but not limited to 3 grand pianos, two marley carts, music stands, clip lights, strip lights, a ground row, various orchestra drums, stages, wood rack, pipe rack, sets of legs, full curtains, various drops, and a whole bunch of other things. 


OF COURSE this advice is all depending on what kind of space you are setting up. This is mostly my experience from semi-educational spaces where they are also trying to rent out the space so need to keep a lot of this gear on hand all the time. But I agree with what others have said, seek out consultants. Push the issues you think you will have. Try and visit some of the bigger theatres in the area and talk to them about what they like and what they don't like, theatre people do enjoy talking about their spaces and this can get your foot in their doors to borrow things if you ever need to for that one gig.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Dec 2, 2014)

Too bad no one is concerned about performer/audience relationships, intimacy, or how well the space supports the performers. But at least there will be lots of storage.


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## venuetech (Dec 2, 2014)

having two spaces is a great thing but you do need to make sure that both spaces can easily access the support spaces that they need. for example my space has a smaller secondary stage but that stage has no direct access to dressing rooms and very little storage (sorry Bill, but it is very intimate ) without going through the main house. Many times it is not practical to have both venues active.


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## techieman33 (Dec 2, 2014)

BillConnerASTC said:


> Too bad no one is concerned about performer/audience relationships, intimacy, or how well the space supports the performers. But at least there will be lots of storage.



We all have our priorities. This is a technical forum, so while the things you've just mentioned are important they are secondary in the minds of most of us. The things that stand out are the things that we see everyday. Weather we love them or hate them that's things like doors, storage spaces, access routes, power, etc. I'm sure if this question was asked on a forum for actors, or directors you would get responses about intimacy, and dressing room needs. Not one of them would mention storage spaces, or big doors though. That's why we have theater consultants, to look at the big picture and to try and make the space fit everyone's needs as best as possible.


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## Les (Dec 2, 2014)

BillConnerASTC said:


> Too bad no one is concerned about performer/audience relationships, intimacy, or how well the space supports the performers. But at least there will be lots of storage.



We are giving "pearls of wisdom", not designing the space. Sadly, storage space is at the top of the list of problems for many of us. I've never heard a technician complain about how well the space supports the performers. This is (hopefully) a moot point since the OP has consultants on board. I'm sure doors and storage areas will be considered by the pros who are on the project.


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## gafftaper (Dec 3, 2014)

I worked on a new black box a few years back. We ended up way over budget and so we were forced to cut all of the equipment that didn't need to be installed as part of a system. So I got dimmer racks, a light board, architectural lighting and controller, amplifiers, soundboard, and main speakers. But not a single stage light, microphone, or even a chair. Then I did all of the purchasing of the equipment myself. It was the best thing that ever happened for that theater. We easily saved over a half million bucks by avoiding contractor markups and I got 2 or 3 times as much gear. I had an army of students helping me open boxes, assemble lights, install chairs, you name it. Basic labor in a college is free use that to your advantage. Once you get the theater all designed, go through the systems with your consultants and break out everything you can install yourself before sending building off to bid. You will save a ton of money.


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## TheaterEd (Dec 3, 2014)

Les said:


> We are giving "pearls of wisdom", not designing the space. Sadly, storage space is at the top of the list of problems for many of us. I've never heard a technician complain about how well the space supports the performers. This is (hopefully) a moot point since the OP has consultants on board. I'm sure doors and storage areas will be considered by the pros who are on the project.


That being said, even with consultants my space ended up with a doorway too narrow for the grand piano to fit through in between the PAC and the Choir room..... They were VERY specific when listing this as a need. Now it takes two custodians about an hour to pop the fire door off its hinges for every choir concert. We also have no place to store the chair racks, choir risers, and choral shell, so every show these things need to be shuffled around. Quite often it means that during the run of the show we spend our first half hour every day clearing the stage of the crap we have to store there so that we have wing space for set pieces. Also DIM-ABLE LIGHTS IN THE BOOTH!!! The last new building I worked in couldn't dim the booth lights at all. My current space installed 'Dim-able' Halogen lights with some funky base. They don't dim lower than 50% and I can't find an incandescent replacement!!! Completely useless during a show. 

To piggy back on Brandofthehawk's post. I didn't realize how important access from the booth to back stage is until I lost it. In my current space, It is a 100M dash around the school hallways for me to get there without going through the house. 

Whomever designed my space also forgot to add side pockets for lighting, and proceeded to hang a row of speakers and house lights between our FOH catwalk and the stage which we have to light around. The catwalk itself it about 15 feet too far from the stage as well. They had the foresight to give me dim-able circuits above my booth for additional front light, but didn't bother to install anything to attach fixtures to.

And now for something I never thought of until it happened. When laying your stage floor, make sure you have a clear center line. The natural center line in our flooring is about 1.5 feet off of center. It really throws off blocking and adds several steps of measuring to make sure the set is centered. 

All that said, I love my space and I love working here and discovering the little quirks and oversights but a lot of frustration could have been avoided if someone in my district would have been asking these questions.

BTW, if your getting an orchestra pit, I have another small rant to go on.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Dec 3, 2014)

Please, Ed, tell us who "consultants" were?

Your issues are all valid and all things I try to get done right. That said, some things won't get done right and won't get fixed. The flooring layout for centerline - and our floor drawing also requires a logical plaster line - is a hard one. Just came from a project where it was some odd 15-16" off. All agreed it was correctly documented, communicated, and there was no excuse. The Owner was not willing to delay opening - since the stage floor is usually one of the very last things to be done - so there it is.


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## TheaterEd (Dec 3, 2014)

Due to some odd circumstances, they were not able to go with the people that do the majority of this type of work in our area. I don't know who they went with. I will see what I can find out.


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## TDN (Dec 3, 2014)

A lot of these answers have been for really just dealing with theatre, but it sounds like you have a full performing arts center in the works. You want to figure out flow for those events. Our arts center uses the scene shop as the main point of access from all the classrooms and rehearsal spaces to the stage, which means that for any production, work in the shop has to be planned out to have clear method of travel, scenery complete enough to move out of the way, floors extra swept, etc. The scene shop also becomes a holding pen during choir concerts, etc. It's not the greatest.

Try to make sure the orchestra room or storage is on the same floor and close by the theatre. You'll be rolling lots of tympani, pianos, etc back and forth.


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## mbepting (Dec 3, 2014)

These are all great concerns. I am pushing hard for a back hallway behind the black box with a rollup door and access to dressing rooms. I also think that it is important to design the space with the actors in mind. I know this is a "technical" forum but we are building a theatre and actors do a lot of work in the theatre so it is very important to consider their needs when designing the space. It only seems logical to me. 

I am also hoping that I can get them to put the black box and main stage on opposite sides of my scene shop with rollup doors to both spaces. Then I could just roll scenery across a hall and into my spaces. We shall see. I am still waiting for the first set of drawings since the consultants have been on board.


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## gafftaper (Dec 3, 2014)

Yeah as designs are coming through the most important thing you can do is to imagine you are doing all the different types of events in the building, in your case more than one at the same time. How are you going to handle things when crew needs to get rapidly from one space to another? Where are people in costume going to travel? How are you going to deal with large set pieces? Can you build in the shop while there is a class in the black box? 

Go through every event you have done in the last year and imagine how it would work in the blueprints. This is how you discover the need for extra doors. In my case I fought a long time to get a door between the green room and costume shop. In the end I was proven right that it would be a critical access on a daily basis, but the architects had no idea how important it would be.


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## venuetech (Dec 3, 2014)

freight elevator at least large enough for a 9' concert grand piano.

Large generous amounts of HVAC for the green room. that or you can buy lots of box fans to prop in doorways for those large cast shows. system must be designed for the maximum occupant load + not the average


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## mbepting (Dec 3, 2014)

gafftaper said:


> Yeah as designs are coming through the most important thing you can do is to imagine you are doing all the different types of events in the building, in your case more than one at the same time. How are you going to handle things when crew needs to get rapidly from one space to another? Where are people in costume going to travel? How are you going to deal with large set pieces? Can you build in the shop while there is a class in the black box?
> 
> Go through every event you have done in the last year and imagine how it would work in the blueprints. This is how you discover the need for extra doors. In my case I fought a long time to get a door between the green room and costume shop. In the end I was proven right that it would be a critical access on a daily basis, but the architects had no idea how important it would be.



Very good points. Thanks. I have about three weeks until the first design meeting. I'm going to have quite the list of questions and concerns.


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## AlexDonkle (Dec 3, 2014)

gafftaper said:


> Go through every event you have done in the last year and imagine how it would work in the blueprints. This is how you discover the need for extra doors.



One addition is that if the project is being designed in Revit (a 3-D modeling program, used on most new buildings) you may be able to request "walk-throughs" of the building from the architect, rendered in 3D. Reviewing blueprints is definitely helpful, however unless you look at a lot of them on a daily basis they're not always the most intuitive way to look at a new building. If you can get a 3-D walkthrough generated going from stage, to backstage, to the scene shop, etc. you'll likely be able to spot issues much more easily than you could on the standard 2-D sheets.


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## gafftaper (Dec 3, 2014)

And when that first meeting is done be sure to get your own copy of the blueprints that you can take back to your office and have your team go over again and again imagining every worst case scenario of how the theater will be used and how things will flow.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Dec 3, 2014)

TheaterEd said:


> Due to some odd circumstances, they were not able to go with the people that do the majority of this type of work in our area. I don't know who they went with. I will see what I can find out.


I'm just curious if you are talking about a professional, full time theatre consultant, or sales reps and/or moon-lighting educators.


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## kiwitechgirl (Dec 4, 2014)

We had a theatre rebuilt in about 2005 and I think the most useful thing they did was put in a continual trap all the way up each wing and across the upstage. It's covered by panels so you just lift the panel wherever you need to; the trap contains single phase hard power, 3 phase power, dimmer outlets and DMX patch points (there is a DMX patch bay in dimmerland) regularly spaced all the way along. You can plug in whatever you want, wherever you want to - very well thought out and works brilliantly. Each panel has a corner piece which is removable so you can run cables up then put the panel back in place.


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## TheaterEd (Dec 4, 2014)

Oh I also just realized recently that I have no DMX output on the stage..... I have one on each electric, but none at stage level... That would be helpful.


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## StradivariusBone (Dec 4, 2014)

TheaterEd said:


> Oh I also just realized recently that I have no DMX output on the stage..... I have one on each electric, but none at stage level... That would be helpful.



We have none anywhere. Newer buildings in our area built off the same original design have outputs like it's going out of style. I guess it's the difference between 1995 and 2000+?


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## BillConnerFASTC (Dec 4, 2014)

We've gone all network and nodes. Network taps everywhere - very inexpensive compared to distributed DMX, and I believe longer lived.

As far as doors, circulation, etc, depends but generally if you can get a medium size car and a 21' joint of pipe on stage, you'll be good. If building scenery, you may want a taller path shop to stag, but usually 8' x 10' is OK for stuff from a truck. And depending on if much comes in on trucks, a dock and space for trailer to be level - no exceptions - no matter the cost.


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## TheaterEd (Dec 5, 2014)

BillConnerASTC said:


> We've gone all network and nodes. Network taps everywhere - very inexpensive compared to distributed DMX, and I believe longer lived.
> 
> As far as doors, circulation, etc, depends but generally if you can get a medium size car and a 21' joint of pipe on stage, you'll be good. If building scenery, you may want a taller path shop to stag, but usually 8' x 10' is OK for stuff from a truck. And depending on if much comes in on trucks, a dock and space for trailer to be level - no exceptions - no matter the cost.


so if I were to grab a pair of THESE and a couple cat5 cables I should be able to send dmx to a network jack on my stage?


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## llburg (Dec 5, 2014)

TheaterEd said:


> so if I were to grab a pair of THESE and a couple cat5 cables I should be able to send dmx to a network jack on my stage?



Yes, if it was just a plain cable wired straight through. (Patch panel is probably fine) If it goes through a switch/hub/router then those won't work. They just change the connector, no "smart" circuitry.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Dec 5, 2014)

You do that at your own risk. We're designing for a network with nodes. I'm not sure if you connect network devices and DMX devices inadvertently if either us damaged or if everything simply doesn't work. We do uyse cat5 for dedicated DMX but don't support DMX on RJ45 connectors.


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## Footer (Dec 5, 2014)

BillConnerASTC said:


> You do that at your own risk. We're designing for a network with nodes. I'm not sure if you connect network devices and DMX devices inadvertently if either us damaged or if everything simply doesn't work. We do uyse cat5 for dedicated DMX but don't support DMX on RJ45 connectors.


Either way all lines should always terminate into a patch panel then go to whatever gear you need to. This rule should apply to all low voltage lines no matter the department. That will allow the building owners the most flexibility down the line.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Dec 5, 2014)

Footer said:


> Either way all lines should always terminate into a patch panel then go to whatever gear you need to. This rule should apply to all low voltage lines no matter the department. That will allow the building owners the most flexibility down the line.


Well, tcpip networks, by the rules, must basically include a patch panel. But this us pretty inexpensive compared to a dmx patch panel, and I still recommend against mixing protocols in a patch panel. We do generally provide a (poe) switch or switches for the lighting network sufficient for all taps plus some for expansion. Too inexpensive to not do that. Enough dmx splitters for 20-30 taps is a different story, not to mention for multiple universes.


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## robartsd (Dec 5, 2014)

BillConnerASTC said:


> Well, tcpip networks, by the rules, must basically include a patch panel. But this us pretty inexpensive compared to a dmx patch panel, and I still recommend against mixing protocols in a patch panel. We do generally provide a (poe) switch or switches for the lighting network sufficient for all taps plus some for expansion. Too inexpensive to not do that. Enough dmx splitters for 20-30 taps is a different story, not to mention for multiple universes.


The purpose of the DMX patch panel would be to reduce the number of spiltters needed. You'd just patch the taps in use to the splitter for the appropriate universe - the number of taps in use would determine the splitters needed, not the number of taps availible.


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## SteveB (Dec 5, 2014)

robartsd said:


> The purpose of the DMX patch panel would be to reduce the number of spiltters needed. You'd just patch the taps in use to the splitter for the appropriate universe - the number of taps in use would determine the splitters needed, not the number of taps availible.



I think for a small system and a small theater, I can (and have) seen a DMX distributed system as more cost effective then Cat5/TCP/IP and that's only if the budget is so low that nodes are too expensive.

In most applications though, a Cat5 Node based system is a much better choice, especially if there are any plans or hopes to expand into movers and LED's, as the node system offers greater capabilities to expand into multiple DMX universes. Cat5 is not useful everywhere though, I don't run it out to my electrics, that's all DMX. But I have nodes in locations where I can then distribute DMX as needed. So planning for a mix of both is a good idea, especially as there are locations where you can't place a node (like the stage floor trenches KiwiTechGirl descibes).


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## venuetech (Dec 6, 2014)

ac outlet / com / mic line / network ports at center house where the tech table is likely to go.


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## RickR (Dec 6, 2014)

IF? there are plans for LED? We are all being dragged into LEDs no matter what. PLAN on far more DMX than a conventional rig would ever dream of having!

I'm doing a mixed DMX and audio patch set up. The right wire and 3pin connectors make DMX possible. So we can now route DMX out of and into various floor/wall/ceiling pockets. Or the audio can plug in/out the same way. We just can't do both.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Dec 6, 2014)

robartsd said:


> The purpose of the DMX patch panel would be to reduce the number of spiltters needed. You'd just patch the taps in use to the splitter for the appropriate universe - the number of taps in use would determine the splitters needed, not the number of taps availible.



So you could not likely have two universes at one position, like one for movers and one for LEDs, and maybe some other effect on another? I jut think DMX distro is limiting and that the network approach removes all those limits.


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## MNicolai (Dec 6, 2014)

robartsd said:


> The purpose of the DMX patch panel would be to reduce the number of spiltters needed.



You don't need any splitters in a node configuration. If anything, you break even between nodes and splitters because optosplitters aren't exactly inexpensive on their own, in spite of their rather limited functionality. In other words, an installation infrastructure based on optosplitters is far less bang for the buck than using nodes.


BillConnerASTC said:


> I jut think DMX distro is limiting and that the network approach removes all those limits.



I second this. Twisted pair cable is cheap as are network switches. Yes, nodes can be a little pricey for very, very small systems that need minimal distribution, but any moderately sized venue will find nodes to be a more practical, user-friendly, and cost-effective approach.

You can also use nodes in any number of configurations. If you like to use the system one way, you can set it up for that. Five years later when you've moved on and someone else is running the show, they can arrange the system how they want to use it.


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## JVTD (Dec 7, 2014)

Seeing as how this is a performing arts center, two things to keep in mind is where is the Scene shop in relation to the stage(s) and where is the loading dock in relation to the shop/stage(s).


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## Chris15 (Dec 7, 2014)

SteveB said:


> In most applications though, a Cat5 Node based system is a much better choice, especially if there are any plans or hopes to expand into movers and LED's, as the node system offers greater capabilities to expand into multiple DMX universes. Cat5 is not useful everywhere though, I don't run it out to my electrics, that's all DMX. But I have nodes in locations where I can then distribute DMX as needed. So planning for a mix of both is a good idea, especially as there are locations where you can't place a node (like the stage floor trenches KiwiTechGirl descibes).



Let's not get into the fact that the venue @kiwitechgirl is referring to extensively uses DMX over Ethernet, and knowing how they work, the trenches probably ARE big enough to fit a node in 

I think anywhere you can get a 3 phase Wilco in, you can probably fit a node in too...


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## BillConnerFASTC (Dec 7, 2014)

One of the problems with the way our buildings are funded and constructed is the now or never aspect. Simply, you'll get things in a new building that you would seldom get funding for to add or upgrade in an existing building. So, if you've grown from just dimmers into distributed dmx, it may make sense to keep that. But if starting from scratch with a new building and much more funding than you'll ever get in the future, put in the systems that will continue to grow and expand. Dmx seens to be close to maxed out, and any perceived savings will be less than the incudentsl expenses for one design meeting for a new building.


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## Jay Ashworth (Dec 8, 2014)

In all that empty conduit that om4eccv told you to install up above? 

Permanent pull ropes. Really good ones. Parachute cord. 

You got a hundred foot conduit? Put 210 feet of pull rope with a permanent stopper on each end so it can't pull out. Marked in the middle. Preferably with a hook in the middle to attach cable pulls to. Assume you're going to pull a 32 channel snake with it.


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## Jay Ashworth (Dec 8, 2014)

Do you have any other local facilities you can tour and talk? For this size investment, 1-200 mi is "local"...


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## Jay Ashworth (Dec 8, 2014)

PL! That big you probably need 3 or 4 channels, and drops /everywhere/! 

House manager, backstage, dressing and green room speaker/handset boxes, box office isn't beyond the pale.

Remember the cardinal rule of new construction:

COPPER IS CHEAP.

PEOPLE ARE PRICEY.


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## kiwitechgirl (Dec 11, 2014)

Chris15 said:


> Let's not get into the fact that the venue @kiwitechgirl is referring to extensively uses DMX over Ethernet, and knowing how they work, the trenches probably ARE big enough to fit a node in
> 
> I think anywhere you can get a 3 phase Wilco in, you can probably fit a node in too...



Actually I wasn't referring to the Opera House! The one I referenced is from my former life in Christchurch NZ - the Isaac Theatre Royal which has just been re-opened after a complete auditorium/FOH rebuild post-earthquake - they kept the facade and the stage house, and saved the painted canvas dome, and knocked everything between them down and completely rebuilt it. They kept sections of all the ornate plasterwork (and must have taken a huge stack of photos) and replicated it almost exactly. I haven't seen it in the flesh yet but the photos look fantastic.


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## Chris15 (Dec 12, 2014)

On well, I got it wrong, that happens sometimes.
(Especially since the House did renovate the Western venues around 2004-5  )


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## de27192 (Dec 12, 2014)

In the past few years I have worked in several brand new build theatres made by some of the world's leading new-theatre consultants. And the sad fact is that they are all still making a hash of them again and again. I've seen some howlers from companies with excellent reputations and portfolios. Without a doubt, the best way to get yourself a brilliant space is to use a theatre design consultant, but keep a firm hold on it yourself; and ensure the consultant's direct client (IE your boss / ops mgr / whoever is leading your project) supports you on maintaining that grip. These companies employ excellent sales talkers who will pull your organisation into buying things they don't need, whilst vastly overlooking essentials with low profit margins. I'm not calling them negligent or fraudsters... but these things do happen, they're businesses and need to make a profit after all. All the best builds I've seen the past few years have had a knowledgeable technical director keeping the design consultants on a tight leash.

Onto the technical front, there is a lot of good information here already. I would contribute the following:

*ACCESS*
- Try and factor in LX access so that as many fixtures as humanly possible can be focussed by standing next to them. Think catwalks/bridges; galleries; tension wire grid; etc.
- Try and offer lifts to as many parts of the building as possible. The lift should be able to take equipment and people, but needn't be too big.
- Make sure the truck dock is sized suitably for the type of vehicle that you receive most of your shows in; but that you stock a few alu ramps to adapt to other vehicles.
- Try to get all the doors in the building done from swipe cards. They're not that expensive, and allow you to tailor access rights to every individual working in the venue. 

*STORAGE*
- Make sure each department has plenty of storage for all of their equipment, with as much at ground level as possible, and the rest with lift access (see above).
- Fit stores and workshops with hot power outlets and ethernet (see below).
- Fit stores and workshops with soundproof (or at least heavy) doors so that work can take place in them whilst there is something happening on stage
- If putting stores / workshops along the up stage wall, ensure there's an 8' gap between the wall and the u/s flybar, else you will end up with the stores obstructed by a cloth.

*CONNECTIVITY*
- It should be designed in so that connectivity into any power, data, comms, etc circuit is possible from any place to any place. Obviously this will also need to factor in things such as patchbays, network switches, etc.
- Have facility panels with access to power, data, comms, etc installed in the grid, in the galleries, on stage both on the walls and under traps; in FOH, in stores, in backstage areas etc etc.
- In lighting bridges, galleries, towers etc... fit your dimmer outlets the same side as the rigging bar. This prevents cables running over the walkway
- Use IWBs where possible for lighting circuits and DMX
- Run DMX over ethernet using sACN, use ethernet nodes to break out into DMX. My preference is not to install nodes, but to keep a stock of them, and install ethernet points everywhere. Then you can add a node as and where required.

*COMMS*
- Install XLR points for wired comms as per connectivity above
- Use wireless comms only for roles where wired comms are impractical. do not rely on wireless across the whole theatre
- Issue crew with 2-way radios, with headsets for show environments and speaker mics for working time; plus radio pouches. much less chance of radio being dropped
- Use analogue 2-way radio, not digital, to avoid latency which can be problematic when focussing etc
- Install several wifi networks around the venue. "Show" networks for things like LX RFU / Sound desk control / etc etc; but also install regular internet access throughout the venue, with separate nets for house crew, company, and audience.


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## TheaterEd (Dec 12, 2014)

BillConnerASTC said:


> We've gone all network and nodes. Network taps everywhere - very inexpensive compared to distributed DMX, and I believe longer lived.
> 
> As far as doors, circulation, etc, depends but generally if you can get a medium size car and a 21' joint of pipe on stage, you'll be good. If building scenery, you may want a taller path shop to stag, but usually 8' x 10' is OK for stuff from a truck. And depending on if much comes in on trucks, a dock and space for trailer to be level - no exceptions - no matter the cost.


So I was up on the catwalk yesterday and I took notice of the DMX outputs up there. I have around 8 DMX outputs on the catwalk. Also, one in each of the side pockets. That makes 14 DMX outputs throughout the theater that they installed, and none of them are at the stage level.....

Had myself a little chuckle at that. Thought I would share with you.


de27192 said:


> - Try to get all the doors in the building done from swipe cards. They're not that expensive, and allow you to tailor access rights to every individual working in the venue.


This is a particularly interesting idea that I am quite a fan of and would have saved me from a current headache that I have. Rather than swipe cards, I would prefer fobs.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Dec 12, 2014)

de27192 said:


> In the past few years I have worked in several brand new build theatres made by some of the world's leading new-theatre consultants. And the sad fact is that they are all still making a hash of them again and again. I've seen some howlers from companies with excellent reputations and portfolios. Without a doubt, the best way to get yourself a brilliant space is to use a theatre design consultant, but keep a firm hold on it yourself; and ensure the consultant's direct client (IE your boss / ops mgr / whoever is leading your project) supports you on maintaining that grip. These companies employ excellent sales talkers who will pull your organisation into buying things they don't need, whilst vastly overlooking essentials with low profit margins. I'm not calling them negligent or fraudsters... but these things do happen, they're businesses and need to make a profit after all. All the best builds I've seen the past few years have had a knowledgeable technical director keeping the design consultants on a tight leash.
> 
> Onto the technical front, there is a lot of good information here already. I would contribute the following:
> 
> ...



Would be interesting to know who your are calling "the world's leading theatre consultants", as they seem to be manufacturer's and contractor's sales reps, not independent design professionals. Nothing has higher or lower margins for me - I have a lump sum fee agreement long before the design is barely started and strive for balance throughout the facility - no gold plated lobbies and crap rigging, nor the other way around.


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## de27192 (Dec 12, 2014)

TheaterEd said:


> This is a particularly interesting idea that I am quite a fan of and would have saved me from a current headache that I have. Rather than swipe cards, I would prefer fobs.



That's a preference thing. One of the nice things about swipe cards is that you can print the staff member's ID card onto it - so that if access of certain areas is very controlled, security are able to check that the person possessing the swipe card is also the person that's supposed to be possessing the swipe card. This comes down to what kind of security you really need.


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## de27192 (Dec 12, 2014)

BillConnerASTC said:


> Would be interesting to know who your are calling "the world's leading theatre consultants", as they seem to be manufacturer's and contractor's sales reps, not independent design professionals. Nothing has higher or lower margins for me - I have a lump sum fee agreement long before the design is barely started and strive for balance throughout the facility - no gold plated lobbies and crap rigging, nor the other way around.



That's very good of your Bill, but you know as well as I do that it's not the case across the board. Right now I am working on replacing the lighting design for a venue, the installers installed what are frankly the wrong fixtures for the job, in the wrong places; and made their money up in custom screen printed patch panels and power distro. If as much money had been spent on a lighting designer (in the first place) and decent lights, and used off the shelf patch panels not these bespoke made lovelies from the installers, it'd be a much better job.


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## robartsd (Dec 12, 2014)

de27192 said:


> That's very good of your Bill, but you know as well as I do that it's not the case across the board. Right now I am working on replacing the lighting design for a venue, the installers installed what are frankly the wrong fixtures for the job, in the wrong places; and made their money up in custom screen printed patch panels and power distro. If as much money had been spent on a lighting designer (in the first place) and decent lights, and used off the shelf patch panels not these bespoke made lovelies from the installers, it'd be a much better job.


 
A true consultant is never the installer, dealer, or vendor. If someone who is hired as a consultant gets a kickback from an installer, dealer, or vendor that he/she recommends without disclosing it, then they are a salesperson who is committing fraud.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Dec 12, 2014)

robartsd said:


> A true consultant is never the installer, dealer, or vendor. If someone who is hired as a consultant gets a kickback from an installer, dealer, or vendor that he/she recommends without disclosing it, then they are a salesperson who is committing fraud.


One of the requirements of membership in the American Society of Theatre Consultants, the organization for professional theatre consultants, is no commercial ties. All of the criteria is here: http://theatreconsultants.org/members/prospective-members-interns/

Sign up for the news letter while there if interested.


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## MNicolai (Dec 12, 2014)

No commercial ties and not being an installer are two naive metrics for the quality of a consultant.

There's nothing wrong about being a dealer, vendor, or an installer as a consultant in and of itself. If there's a kickback involved, then certainly that's a substantial conflict of interest. If the consultant is _also_ the installer or vendor on that particular project, then that has potential to become a conflict of interest.

Firm I work for does both contracting and consulting, and we've been given grief by other consultants for running a consulting division and a contracting division inside of the same company. They seem to think that that necessarily means our designs are somehow corrupt. They're full of bologna.

As a contracting/consulting firm, there's some incredible value in having installation experience that helps inform your design, and consulting experience that informs your installations. We specify equipment for our designs based on our own experiences in contracting. That's not because we get a kickback -- we don't. It's because we wouldn't specify a piece of equipment or a system design that we ourselves wouldn't warranty and stamp our own names on. We even have an internal list of products and manufacturers we will not specify because of our own experiences seeing these pieces of equipment fail or certain manufacturers who have thoroughly illustrated to us that they are incapable of supporting their own product.

Having an institution with experience in installation and consulting means you have someone better prepared to coordinate with the other trades, both in the design phase of the project as well as during construction. The bigger the project, the more coordination required, and the more expensive a lack of coordination becomes.

I'm talking about having an acute awareness as to how you should or shouldn't let the electricians pipe their conduits because you know what makes a wire pull either a total success or a total disaster. I'm also talking about knowing how to have a productive conversation about electrical back boxes and the bend radii of different cables. Is it a sexy part of their job? Not really. Can it quickly become the difference between the project going off without a hitch or having to cancel that opening show a Broadway tour is booked for? You bet.

A consultant at a consulting/contracting firm is someone who can put their money where their mouth is. This is vital, because their design budget is actually your money, sometimes anywhere between six and eight digits worth. And you're trusting them with it.


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## AlexDonkle (Dec 13, 2014)

BillConnerASTC said:


> One of the requirements of membership in the American Society of Theatre Consultants, the organization for professional theatre consultants, is no commercial ties. All of the criteria is here: http://theatreconsultants.org/members/prospective-members-interns/
> 
> Sign up for the news letter while there if interested.



NCAC has similar rules for acoustical consultants. 


MNicolai said:


> There's nothing wrong about being a dealer, vendor, or an installer as a consultant in and of itself. If there's a kickback involved, then certainly that's a substantial conflict of interest. If the consultant is _also_ the installer or vendor on that particular project, then that has potential to become a conflict of interest.
> 
> Firm I work for does both contracting and consulting, and we've been given grief by other consultants for running a consulting division and a contracting division inside of the same company. They seem to think that that necessarily means our designs are somehow corrupt. They're full of bologna.



Consultant and design-build contractors are different types of businesses. Not that ones better than another, but manufacturers will always directly influence the contractor's profit margins since that's who the contractor has to buy from. 

Being a independent consultant or a contractor doesn't inherently make anyone a good or bad designer. There are good and bad designers at both types of companies.


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## MNicolai (Dec 13, 2014)

AlexDonkle said:


> NCAC has similar rules for acoustical consultants.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'm referring to a consultant who is involved with contracting at their business but not for that particular project. Design/build is a very different beast which I have mixed feelings about.

My grievance with ASTC is that to be a member, you cannot have a contracting portion of your business which you opt not to consult for. You must purely be a consultant with no affiliation to how jobs actually get installed so long as you remain a member.

Really my greater concern though is this notion that in order to be a reputable consultant, you need to appear to be blind to manufacturers and without preference.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Dec 13, 2014)

Members if ASTC are far from blind or without preferences, they just don't affect our income or the income of the company/employer.

Independent theatre consultants most often also have a much larger view and scope, far beyond just equipment and systems, and have invested the time and energy to become expert at those subjects. I have never seen a contractor/vendor acting as consultant that knows much at all about sight lines, ADA, or be very proficient at talking the Owners into spending much more than originally planned.

I just reject the notion that a "consultant" with contractor/vendor ties is never influenced by this.

And yes, I object that the contractor employed consultant is subsidized by sales of the contractor part of the business. Same as the educator moonlighting as consultant - that not only do they not have to be good enough to make it full time but the consulting is subsidized by the school in form of an office.


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## DuckJordan (Dec 13, 2014)

Mike, I have to agree with Bill on this one. As soon as you sell a product you might suggest a client in installing (as a consultant) you are now in the realm of conflict of interest. maybe not intentionally but it is there. You as the consultant know that specific product so you'd approach a problem differently than someone who knew about quite a few products but was not specialized in any single one. As a client I would want my consultant to look passed the gear they distribute and suggest the equipment that would make the most sense in terms of budget, ease of solution, and works well within the boundaries of the project. Too often I see contractors who are dealers for brands such as JBL or Strand and completely ignore the fact that there is no reason for a Vertec system in a space that has an adequate sound system already in place, or my favorite insisting the customer buy these strand lights to compliment the S4 inventory they already have.

I've seen "consultants" who work in the same company as "contractors" magically request specific requirements for a bid that only their "contractors" could provide with a specific product that they happen to sell. ASTC should really be the only source of consultants for new theaters or performance spaces TBH. Now should those consultants have install experience? Absolutely but as a consultant not as a contractor. They should have worked along side contractors to figure out how easily or cost effective that particular product or design is. Otherwise we would see motorized battens in every space with LED's as the only option for new venues. We know this isn't the case because most consultants check the products they are suggesting not just read the spec sheets and call it a day.


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## Footer (Dec 13, 2014)

In NYS you can hire a consultant to write a spec for a project. That consultant can stay on through the bid, acceptance, build, and verification of the work. However, that consultant can not bid on the project even if they have a construction arm. In my view this separation should be the standard just to give you checks and balances. Write a spec yourself or have someone write the spec. Get bids from people that were not involved in writing the spec. Do the job. Verify the job was done to spec.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Dec 13, 2014)

And consider the "spec credit" issue. If a vendor can claim spec credit, even if that is helping an architect or engineer, they get a lower price from manufacturer, or should I say all the other bidders get a higher one. That does not happen on my jobs or those of similar independent consultants - everyone gets the price in line with their agreement with the manufacturer.

I know there is seldom a project I work on that my experience or expertise doesn't save more in construction - or much more - than our fees. I may show the owner the wisdom of spending it on something else, but in any case they get a higher value.


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## de27192 (Dec 13, 2014)

I think there are plusses and minuses that should not be overlooked and in both cases there is good to be had.

The point about installing a JBL Vertec into a space with a sufficient PA system is absolutely valid. But then on the other hand, if you were after a new, high spec sound system... would you prefer to have it supplied and configured by a company who specialise in the supply and configuration of Meyer PA - who are a dealer out of convenience and profitability; or by an independent consultant who is not directly experienced to a great extent with any brand, and is far less familiar with the strengths and constraints of their particular products? I have seen plenty of light, sound, video, rigging etc products supplied where the wrong model has been supplied, as the supplier did not properly understand the product range or how to install it to best effect.

On the other hand, as has already been expressed, I have plenty of times seen what can only be described as "the wrong product" being supplied because the supplier has a cushty relationship with the manufacturer that allows them to tender for jobs at a much lower rate. This is counterproductive too, often the venue ends up having to buy the right product anyway as what they've been supplied does not meet design specifications for the shows they are receiving, and the total cost is far higher because they end up with both. I know a major international venue who took a substantial order (>500 units) of one brand of generic lighting during the install, only for a head of lighting to later be appointed, who upon inspecting the store, declared "not on my watch" or something along those lines, and had the venue invest in a complete re-stock of something else.

This is why my point was: 
"_Regardless of whether your consultant is independent or has dealership connections; you need to keep a tight leash on them to ensure that you are provided with what is best for you, not them."_

This issue is not even limited to supplier relationships. Some consultants will sell you a product you don't want just because it will look good in THEIR portfolio. The job brief doesn't go in there, just pretty pictures and specs. Architects are renowned for it. One I know of was including a beautiful decorative spiral staircase into the raised FOH position because it looked nice... with absolutely no appreciation for the fact that mixing on a raised platform often sucks for acoustics, and that if you have to put a touring sound desk in FOH it will be a lot easier in a lift than up a spiral staircase. No amount of independence can stop somebody doing that to you. So this is why having your own criteria firmly drawn up, and having regular checks to ensure your contractor is sticking to what you want not what they want, is important.


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## AlexDonkle (Dec 13, 2014)

Footer said:


> In NYS you can hire a consultant to write a spec for a project. That consultant can stay on through the bid, acceptance, build, and verification of the work. However, that consultant can not bid on the project even if they have a construction arm. In my view this separation should be the standard just to give you checks and balances. Write a spec yourself or have someone write the spec. Get bids from people that were not involved in writing the spec. Do the job. Verify the job was done to spec.



That is a good rule to have, as a lot of issues stem from contractor/consultants bidding on their own designs. However, most manufacturers know how their gear gets into a job. Even if Contractor doesn't bid on a specific job they designed, the manufacturers will still know they are the ones responsible for specifying the gear.

We've also run into issues where venues wanted to replace their FOH sound system because they were getting complaints. They were mostly talking to local contractors about options who gave them ideas all of the map of how to improve it buy replacing speakers or adding more. We walked the room and identified the room acoustics were the culprit, not the speakers themselves, which none of the contractors caught. After a few acoustical panels were added to stop a bad reflection, all the complaints went away without touching the speakers.


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## RickR (Dec 16, 2014)

I've moved through this spectrum twice - once in architectural lighting and now in theatrical consulting soon to be fully independent. This is not a new issue for us or many other fields and we won't solve it here. 

1. *Integrity can not be forced. *Or as others have said "You can't legislate morality!" Independence helps but it is not a panacea. 

2. *Disclosure is critical.* I have had many clients that want us to use products that have local support, i.e. available from our retail dept. Some simply want a turn key solution and are willing to risk/pay what it takes. Some feel profit on sales should go to those that do the work - mostly the consultant - and that the overlap reduces their overall costs. Others, especially governmental types, insist on a complete break. To go into such a case expecting a sale would be ludicrous. The short version is that everyone has biases and temptations, be honest with your clients about yours and everyone will be happier.


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## AudJ (Dec 16, 2014)

As good as the system is in NY, which I agree with in theory, I have seen multiple instances where schools get inferior equipment than spec because a vendor comes in with a presentation to the Board of Education or finance office that saves $. Claims that the products function the same are never true, and there is nothing that can be done at that point unless the consultant puts a stop to it (which has not occurred in my case). 

Hire a good consultant like Bill or many others!


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## Footer (Dec 16, 2014)

AudJ said:


> As good as the system is in NY, which I agree with in theory, I have seen multiple instances where schools get inferior equipment than spec because a vendor comes in with a presentation to the Board of Education or finance office that saves $. Claims that the products function the same are never true, and there is nothing that can be done at that point unless the consultant puts a stop to it (which has not occurred in my case).
> 
> Hire a good consultant like Bill or many others!



Or just know what is going on and ride the wave. There are companies out there who build to other companies specs while building an inferior product. This happens in all industries. Many bid process won't let an individual product be named so you have to go the long way around and write a spec to be met. In my world we get by this because we need to meet riders... something a high school does not have to do.


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## Les (Dec 16, 2014)

Footer said:


> Many bid process won't let an individual product be named so you have to go the long way around and write a spec to be met. In my world we get by this because we need to meet riders... something a high school does not have to do.



Seems like an old trick used to be to say "Ellipsoidal fixtures must utilize the HPL family of lamps". Unfortunately, that probably won't work anymore as even a 360Q can be ordered to accept the HPL.


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## np18358 (Dec 16, 2014)

Les said:


> Seems like an old trick used to be to say "Ellipsoidal fixtures must utilize the HPL family of lamps". Unfortunately, that probably won't work anymore as even a 360Q can be ordered to accept the HPL.


I'm sorry, don't you mean an "Industry-standard ERS that utilizes the HPL family of lamps, interchangeable lens tube assemblies ranging in size from 5° to 90°, allows use of industry standard accessories, features both a pattern and accessory slot, and allow for the use of purpose made followspot assemblies and/or internal accessory slot based subtractive color mixing engines"?. It can be crazy at times how many hoops school districts can make us go through. I know that sometimes playing the "this is industry standard, and this is the only piece of equipment that we can use to properly teach students" works, but that depends on the support level of your administration.


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## Footer (Dec 17, 2014)

Les said:


> Seems like an old trick used to be to say "Ellipsoidal fixtures must utilize the HPL family of lamps". Unfortunately, that probably won't work anymore as even a 360Q can be ordered to accept the HPL.



Technically that is against the rules in many places... you can not write a spec that can not be produced by a competitor if the specific spec is protected by patents. Not saying it does not work, but many places will throw out specs like that out. 

One of the conferances that we host every year is the Purchasing Forum for NYS. We get to hear about all kinds of exciting things like this. Specs should be written to function, not to form. You can't write a spec for a vehicle that includes "must have a Hemi"... because only one company makes that.


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## techieman33 (Dec 17, 2014)

np18358 said:


> I'm sorry, don't you mean an "Industry-standard ERS that utilizes the HPL family of lamps, interchangeable lens tube assemblies ranging in size from 5° to 90°, allows use of industry standard accessories, features both a pattern and accessory slot, and allow for the use of purpose made followspot assemblies and/or internal accessory slot based subtractive color mixing engines"?. It can be crazy at times how many hoops school districts can make us go through. I know that sometimes playing the "this is industry standard, and this is the only piece of equipment that we can use to properly teach students" works, but that depends on the support level of your administration.



The Altman Phoenix would fill most of those specs.


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## SteveB (Dec 17, 2014)

You 

Footer said:


> Technically that is against the rules in many places... you can not write a spec that can not be produced by a competitor if the specific spec is protected by patents. Not saying it does not work, but many places will throw out specs like that out.
> 
> One of the conferances that we host every year is the Purchasing Forum for NYS. We get to hear about all kinds of exciting things like this. Specs should be written to function, not to form. You can't write a spec for a vehicle that includes "must have a Hemi"... because only one company makes that.



You can list a special manufacturer but typically have to add "or approved equal". We also list specific and the phrase, "must be compatible with large inventory of existing equipment and spare parts". So far NY State and City have not questioned this practice.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Dec 17, 2014)

I am finding government purchasing authorities don't like "or equal" in a spec any longer as its a judgment call often at a time when there isn't time for consideration. Instead they prefer at least three named products that all meet the spec. This avoids the shabby imitation equals and last minute pitches.

Generally they have provisions for just naming two that are not difficult - a letter with reasons has been sufficient.

They also have provisions for sole sourcing or one name specs but that is a much tougher bar to cross. I have, when an Owner was certain, usually for lighting consoles and sometimes fixtures. Hmmm, wonder who's.

In a few instances when it was "really important" I have the console in an ff&e package with all the turnover items and know most dealers - who we pre-qualify - will swap a few fixtures to get the console changed to the one the user really wants.

I try to keep this all above board, at least at the local level with the school, and don't worry as much about the beaureaucrat in the state capitol.

Just to be sure, these are public projects funded by taxpayers. Private schools and institutions can do what they please.


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## de27192 (Dec 17, 2014)

I do apologise to the OP for dragging his suggestions thread quite so far off topic...

But it serves to highlight the point I made in the first place. Keep a tab on what your contractors are doing; and make sure that your company's PM for this supports your supervision. The plan is only one thing, I have heard of more than one instance where a supplier has won the bid on the basis of supplying one thing, and has then substituted it for something else on the grounds of "availability" or "local support" or something like that, and the client, being short of a technical expert in-house, has nodded and said "yes that's fine as long as it really does do the same thing". Obviously that's a matter of opinion, I would be inclined to disagree in the case of a theatre who's supplier won the bid with a MA2 Light and substituted it with a Geo. Also heard of a theatre who were due 50 electric fly bars, and ended up with 36, when the installer assured their client that having greater spacing between fly bars would improve their versatility.

I honestly think that both with installs, and with upgrades, it should be considered essential to have somebody in-house, on-side, supervising the work being produced by the external contractors. Not only will it allow you to identify shortcomings and problems will in advance, but just having you there doing your thing, and them being aware of your presence, renders them much less likely to try and pull a fast one on you in the first place.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Dec 17, 2014)

de27192 said:


> I do apologise to the OP for dragging his suggestions thread quite so far off topic...
> 
> But it serves to highlight the point I made in the first place. Keep a tab on what your contractors are doing; and make sure that your company's PM for this supports your supervision. The plan is only one thing, I have heard of more than one instance where a supplier has won the bid on the basis of supplying one thing, and has then substituted it for something else on the grounds of "availability" or "local support" or something like that, and the client, being short of a technical expert in-house, has nodded and said "yes that's fine as long as it really does do the same thing". Obviously that's a matter of opinion, I would be inclined to disagree in the case of a theatre who's supplier won the bid with a MA2 Light and substituted it with a Geo. Also heard of a theatre who were due 50 electric fly bars, and ended up with 36, when the installer assured their client that having greater spacing between fly bars would improve their versatility.
> 
> I honestly think that both with installs, and with upgrades, it should be considered essential to have somebody in-house, on-side, supervising the work being produced by the external contractors. Not only will it allow you to identify shortcomings and problems will in advance, but just having you there doing your thing, and them being aware of your presence, renders them much less likely to try and pull a fast one on you in the first place.



I think one of the primary functions I perform as an independent consultant that works with the users and owners - and those are two different entities in most projects - to agree on and document in plans and specs the functions and quality of all the systems and equipment and the basic building is then ensuring that what is furnished and installed complies with the plans and specs. I think that is one of the main problems with contractor/sales rep as consultant, where the only think assured is the contractor's profit, and if that means substituting a product, that's what they'll do with no independent eyes and voice to speak against it.

The sorts of modifications to the plans and specs you mention - substituting less expensive consoles and deleting rigging for instance - is simply unheard of on projects I and many of my professional colleagues consult on. It does seem to be more rampant in the a/v world though, which I don't do.

Above, in response to "Some consultants will sell you a product you don't want...." - I simply don't "sell" any any products beyond our design services, which are to assist the owner and user in getting what they want and need, what ever is in the Owners best interest.


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## de27192 (Dec 18, 2014)

BillConnerASTC said:


> The sorts of modifications to the plans and specs you mention - substituting less expensive consoles and deleting rigging for instance - is simply unheard of on projects I and many of my professional colleagues consult on. It does seem to be more rampant in the a/v world though, which I don't do.



I think in places where there are many theatres, consultants, suppliers etc to choose from; like the USA / UK / EU etc... this is less of an issue. But there are a lot of new major facilities popping up in countries with a lot of money but no skills, such as in the Gulf and in Asia. For these, a couple of major contractors in all fields seem to be doing the same jobs with each other on these facilities, and the ability to exploit the fact that the client frequently will not employ an independent advisor in the job and take their advice from the same person they buy kit from; is much more prevalent in these builds. I think this is quite possibly for the same reason as in corporate A/V as you mention - just down to the lack of people in the organisation who are able to (A) spec what they want in the first place, instead letting the sales company do it; and (B) spot when they're being played.

I did gigs at 2 newly opened facilities in Asia. Both facilities had very similar project briefs, similar budgets, similar capacities, similar purpose. For all intents and purposes they could have most likely built the same theatre twice and everyone would have gone home happy. The one thing that was different is how they planned and spec'd the theatre. One brought in this group of major contractors and said "we want a theatre. X-big. Y-capacity. Z-theme." The other instead first brought in several members of staff - an HOD LX, HOD Sound + Video, HOD Stage + Flys, and a stage manager. They then said "we want a theatre. X-big, Y-capicity, Z-theme. But also must be A-lights, B-console, C-dimmers, D-speakers, E-sound desk, F-projectors, G-fly system...." you get the idea. The end result is one theatre is drastically better from a technical standpoint than the other. I shouldn't have to explain which. If you assume that they took the same stance on the other systems in the venue, the overall venue is probably significantly better all round. It's not cheap to do. Those people should expect $100,000 salaries and so to bring in the team above probably cost them half a million dollars. But in facilities of that size, the savings will have paid for them, and the savings are ongoing too.

In my mind there are 2 main issues that you need to protect against when building a new facility:
1) The design and spec contractor selling you something you don't need, don't want, could do better than, etc; to maximise their own take.
2) The installation contractor substituting the specified kit with something you don't need, don't want, could do better than, etc; to maximise their own take.

I appreciate that you say you don't do this and that is great. But it does happen. Particularly in the field of state-run new builds which have to adopt extremely bureaucratic and budget-orientated tendering processes. Some of these companies have big experience in dealing with large government tenders and how to maximise the benefits to their own pocket without a care in the world for the operational effectiveness and/or occupational safety of the technical departments of the venue. And I believe that it could be mostly stopped, or at least hugely limited, if more new build venues would take the time and expense to employ their HODs before the build begins, have them supervise the spec and install of the building, and have them there to prevent the contractors getting any ideas about pulling a fast one.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Dec 18, 2014)

While I'm not sure experience in an OPEC country is directly applicable to a small US college, but events and consequences not too dissimilar ttyo those described by worldwide do occur when the owner and/or architect turn to vendors and contractors for design services.


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## rwhealey (Dec 18, 2014)

de27192 said:


> I do apologise to the OP for dragging his suggestions thread quite so far off topic...
> 
> But it serves to highlight the point I made in the first place. Keep a tab on what your contractors are doing; and make sure that your company's PM for this supports your supervision. The plan is only one thing, I have heard of more than one instance where a supplier has won the bid on the basis of supplying one thing, and has then substituted it for something else on the grounds of "availability" or "local support" or something like that, and the client, being short of a technical expert in-house, has nodded and said "yes that's fine as long as it really does do the same thing". Obviously that's a matter of opinion, I would be inclined to disagree in the case of a theatre who's supplier won the bid with a MA2 Light and substituted it with a Geo. Also heard of a theatre who were due 50 electric fly bars, and ended up with 36, when the installer assured their client that having greater spacing between fly bars would improve their versatility.
> 
> I honestly think that both with installs, and with upgrades, it should be considered essential to have somebody in-house, on-side, supervising the work being produced by the external contractors. Not only will it allow you to identify shortcomings and problems will in advance, but just having you there doing your thing, and them being aware of your presence, renders them much less likely to try and pull a fast one on you in the first place.



You also have to remember that the consultant doesn't work for the tech department. We work for the architect, who was hired by the organization as a whole. This can lead to a lot of finger pointing. We recently had a school where we talked to the tech director who asked for X, Y, and Z. When the school district got the budget for X, Y and Z, they told us to only include X in our design. The tech director wasn't too happy he only got X even after we suggested he go talk with the principal who made the cuts. That time we actually got to talk to the tech director - the principal could have just as easily pointed the finger at us and told the tech director we did a poor design.

Your 36 electric fly bars could easily have been a budget cut from above that didn't filter down to the tech staff. On the other hand, if the design called 50 and the contractor provided 36, the contractor shouldn't have been paid until 50 showed up on the job site. Typically a GC will be bonded, so if the job isn't competed the owner can make a claim against the bond or a final payment is withheld until the consultant certifies the system as complete. Most consultants perform construction administration to ensure that the contractors meet the design requirements. I agree that it helps if a knowledgeable person from the owner is available to provide additional input, but your consultant should be watching out for you too.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Dec 18, 2014)

Rwhealy points out that a typical challenge of US public work like schools. You have an owner, typically represented by the elected school board, various administrayors, anyone of which may be tasked with oversight of the project oriiitcould be someone else, and the users - faculty and staff. As often as not, the school has no theatre or equipment comparable to what they will have. For example they could have a 24 channel 2 scene and 24 dimmers and will have 2 or 3 racks of dimmer per circuit with an Ion class console. Dead hung rags to a combination of manual counterweight and motorized. They don't have stage eqyipment trained staff now and have no plans to add anyone (though they often do a year or two after opening). All this complicated by a design team and a contractor team. 

Hard to know who will emerge as being in charge. Often design team is clearly and loudly told not to talk to faculty and staff. How well the theatre turns out may all hinge on how sympathetic the admin is to the arts versus athletics.


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## AudJ (Dec 19, 2014)

I realize it is a typo, but "Administrayors" is my new nickname for a boss that likes to stray off point, and lead projects astray...


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## AlexDonkle (Dec 19, 2014)

BillConnerASTC said:


> Rwhealy points out that a typical challenge of US public work like schools. You have an owner, typically represented by the elected school board, various administrayors, anyone of which may be tasked with oversight of the project oriiitcould be someone else, and the users - faculty and staff. As often as not, the school has no theatre or equipment comparable to what they will have. For example they could have a 24 channel 2 scene and 24 dimmers and will have 2 or 3 racks of dimmer per circuit with an Ion class console. Dead hung rags to a combination of manual counterweight and motorized. They don't have stage eqyipment trained staff now and have no plans to add anyone (though they often do a year or two after opening). All this complicated by a design team and a contractor team.
> 
> Hard to know who will emerge as being in charge. Often design team is clearly and loudly told not to talk to faculty and staff. How well the theatre turns out may all hinge on how sympathetic the admin is to the arts versus athletics.



It's frightening when most people realise just how many decisions in K-12 schools involve the principal, the head janitor, and no one else. 

There have also been cases were a theatre tech director does get everything he asks for in a new theatre, and then they leave the school a year later.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Dec 19, 2014)

AudJ said:


> I realize it is a typo, but "Administrayors" is my new nickname for a boss that likes to stray off point, and lead projects astray...


I call them wypos, for word ptocessing.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Dec 19, 2014)

AlexDonkle said:


> It's frightening when most people realise just how many decisions in K-12 schools involve the principal, the head janitor, and no one else.
> 
> There have also been cases were a theatre tech director does get everything he asks for in a new theatre, and then they leave the school a year later.


I didn't know we were working on same projects.


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