# Lycian Spotlights



## Cmunoz (Oct 3, 2011)

What are the pros and cons of the electronic ballast vs the magnetic ballast on the Lycian spot lights. I am getting ready to purchase two new ones for one of my theaters and other than price want to know the difference.


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## JD (Oct 3, 2011)

Same as the are on everything.

Electronic ballasts are smaller, lighter and more efficient. Magnetic ballasts are heavy transformer like things. 

When a mag ballast goes bad, changing the cap usually fixes them. 

When E ballasts go bad, they usually nuke themselves and have to be sent out for a rebuild. 

E ballasts have a more consistent light output via better regulation over a wide range of voltage. 

Mag ballasts have fixed taps for specific voltages, and output changes are more noticeable on voltage sags. 

Mag ballasts are far more likely to survive a large voltage spike (surge.)


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## derekleffew (Oct 3, 2011)

JD, I liked your previous answer to the same/similar question.

From http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/...ic-vs-electronic-ballasts-power-supplies.html :

JD said:


> If the choice was which one would I want to power my heart/lung machine during an operation, I would chose magnetic hands down! Solid state ballasts, like switch-mode power supplies, live their lives 100 milliseconds away from death. Magnetic ballasts usually give you some fair warning they are getting cranky!
> 
> But, we are not talking heart/lung machines here, are we?
> 
> ...



*Cmunoz*, which Lycian spots are you considering, as I didn't know a choice was offered?


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## Cmunoz (Oct 4, 2011)

derekleffew said:


> JD, I liked your previous answer to the same/similar question.
> 
> From http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/...ic-vs-electronic-ballasts-power-supplies.html :
> 
> ...


 
I am going with the M2 2040-25 medium throw 2500w.


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## rochem (Oct 4, 2011)

I have no comment on magnetic vs. electronic, but for a theatre situation I might look at the Lycian 1275 as an alternative to the M2. The M2s are great spots, but they're designed more to have a flatter field for video and IMAG purposes, where the 1275 has a more peaked field and is usually better suited for theatre. The 1275/1290/1293 range is what you're going to see in many professional theatres (on the east coast at least), while the M2 is more common in the corporate/concert world and when you need to fit spots into a small area. Not that the M2 won't work just as well, it's just something to consider if you haven't already.


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## shiben (Oct 4, 2011)

rochem said:


> I have no comment on magnetic vs. electronic, but for a theatre situation I might look at the Lycian 1275 as an alternative to the M2. The M2s are great spots, but they're designed more to have a flatter field for video and IMAG purposes, where the 1275 has a more peaked field and is usually better suited for theatre. The 1275/1290/1293 range is what you're going to see in many professional theatres (on the east coast at least), while the M2 is more common in the corporate/concert world and when you need to fit spots into a small area. Not that the M2 won't work just as well, it's just something to consider if you haven't already.


 
I doubt this is a HUGE issue, mainly because you can always throw on frost or something... Although it is definitely something to think about. This is why I tend to bite the bullet and use S4 5ºs if I can get my hands on them...


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## Cmunoz (Oct 4, 2011)

shiben said:


> I doubt this is a HUGE issue, mainly because you can always throw on frost or something... Although it is definitely something to think about. This is why I tend to bite the bullet and use S4 5ºs if I can get my hands on them...


 
I do like the 1275's but I was looking for something in the 2k range. What about the 1279 Super star 2.5. Has anyone used this light. I believe it is bigger than the 2040 and uses a different lamp. If the 1275 came in 2k I would take it.


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## Cmunoz (Oct 4, 2011)

Cmunoz said:


> I do like the 1275's but I was looking for something in the 2k range. What about the 1279 Super star 2.5. Has anyone used this light. I believe it is bigger than the 2040 and uses a different lamp. If the 1275 came in 2k I would take it.


 
As far as size is concerned are the 2040's about the same size or bigger than a 1600w Medium throw super trouper. Thats what we have now and it fits our space just fine. Anything much bigger wouldn't be comfortable.


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## derekleffew (Oct 4, 2011)

Cmunoz said:


> ... a 1600w Medium throw super trouper. Thats what we have now and it fits our space just fine. ...


Then why do you want/need to change? Many would argue that any Lycian is a step down from any Super Trouper. There are several reasonable cost upgrades available for older Xenon Super Troupers, all of which will be less costly than replacing the fixtures.
---

rochem said:


> ...The M2s are great spots, but they're designed more to have a flatter field for video and IMAG purposes, where the 1275 has a more peaked field and is usually better suited for theatre. ...


I've never heard anything of that sort, but have only used the M2 as a truss spot (the defacto industry standard, save for a few Robert Juliat models). One would think any quality fixture would have the ability to project either peak or cosine distribution, and I'm not sure why one would be better suited for a particular genre. This may be related to one of those "Hit them with a soft-edged head spot every time they open their mouth" styles of Broadway spot design.


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## Cmunoz (Oct 4, 2011)

derekleffew said:


> Then why do you want/need to change? Many would argue that any Lycian is a step down from any Super Trouper. There are several reasonable cost upgrades available for older Xenon Super Troupers, all of which will be less costly than replacing the fixtures.


 
THe ones we have are really old. I guess we could look into upgrading but I am a big fan of the way a lycian is layed out. All my spot ops like using them way better than a super trouper. I won't get rid of them anyway just move them over to my other theater where the spots are even worse than these.


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## tristanpants (Oct 4, 2011)

Cmunoz said:


> THe ones we have are really old. I guess we could look into upgrading but I am a big fan of the way a lycian is layed out. All my spot ops like using them way better than a super trouper. I won't get rid of them anyway just move them over to my other theater where the spots are even worse than these.



I'm a repair tech/spot operator/ld. I would retro fit the troupers as their maintainability is easier and it is better suited to picking up your cues whether you are a novice or expert. 

I would choose electronic over magnetic 10/10 times. the legacy ballast always have capacitor issues and any voltage drop that is not within the toleration of your fixtures will cause blackouts.


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## SteveB (Oct 4, 2011)

I hate the look of HMI, always finding that there's a lot of UV that colors the light with a purple'ish tone. Thus if I had a choice between HMI or xenon I'd take xenon any day. 

FWIW, if you have the Strong xenon I'm thinking of, it has the color holder stuck on the front of the fixture ?. My operators comment on how much nicer the Lycian's are to operate with the color frame system closer to the operator.

Which is why we purchased the Lycian 1293, 3kw xenons to replace Strong carbon arc Super Troupers. I might have gotten away with 2kw, but too much intensity is always easier to get rid of then not having it to begin with. The Lycians are great machines. 

But any reason you are not doing what Derek suggested and re-vamping the Strongs ?. Maybe new reflectors ?. 

Or maybe look at the Robert Juliat line ?. They seemingly are getting very popular in the US.


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## Cmunoz (Oct 4, 2011)

SteveB said:


> I hate the look of HMI, always finding that there's a lot of UV that colors the light with a purple'ish tone. Thus if I had a choice between HMI or xenon I'd take xenon any day.
> 
> FWIW, if you have the Strong xenon I'm thinking of, it has the color holder stuck on the front of the fixture ?. My operators comment on how much nicer the Lycian's are to operate with the color frame system closer to the operator.
> 
> ...


 
Yeah they are the super troupers with the color stuck on the front. I run spot with the local union sometimes at other venues and I would much rather use the lycians, way easier to use. We need new spots no matter what. I will probably go ahead and update these for use in another theater. I had heard someone else mention the Robert Juliat line but have never used them before. Thanks everyone for all the input.


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## ship (Oct 4, 2011)

tristanpants said:


> I'm a repair tech/spot operator/ld. I would retro fit the troupers as their maintainability is easier and it is better suited to picking up your cues whether you are a novice or expert.
> 
> I would choose electronic over magnetic 10/10 times. the legacy ballast always have capacitor issues and any voltage drop that is not within the toleration of your fixtures will cause blackouts.


 
Seen all go bad with time and spikes. Capacitors, relay switches, ballasts for re-potting & internal wiring melting down verses electronic issues. 198v threshold for working I would say with any ballast for striking but if at a home location I would expect such troubles are less a problem.

Good question of Xenon verses HMI in choice - really good question - though various lamps out there which have better CRI and or different color temperatures to choose from. Still a good question of HMI verses Xenon at times lamp to lamp in considering.

Advice in all will have to go back to the factory at some point, also buy a spare ballast for what ever line you get or refab. Hopefully collect dust but on-site if a problem as opposed to rushed shipping. Lycian and no doubt others will ship a replacement to make the show work and worry about details later, but having one on hand is cheaper overall. One in the wings means normall all will work as they age or have problems, or be a big factor in troubleshooting.

My own experience - a lot on the Lycian #1290 and over 12 years with them but at times... little to no real problems or ballast failures. But I don't do follow spots mostly other than re-wiring or changing capacitors for #1271 or #1272 ballasts. Such ballasts might be like 20 years old at times in needing re-potting. Got the new RJ 1.8Kw HMI fixture now, never worked with it other than thinking that some knobs would easily be broken in transport. Rarely work with the M-2 other than at times sending back a ballast assembly - but it is a few out of a bulk of them over a few years. Large bulk of them. Also have the Super Trouper II but newer fixtures and no problems so far that I was involved with if any. Same with the Gladiator IV in too new so far to have normal problems with age and touring that at least I'm involved with. Electronics, new fixture or my more conventional fixture department in we don't always talk persay in what comes to my notice or who can easier get the work done say for replacing wiring or a capacitor.

Do know that I would rather take a #1290 than Trouper II for on-site install. #1290 is much easier to bench focus at a location, but if at a static install that ain't as much a factor in tinkering. Glad I don't do a lot of them in that often such an install requires me helping to carry the beast up into a stadium audience. IA' what in me just there to install the lamp? And or elvators in good design? 

If not the case of moving a spot around & installing the lamp with each move, no opinion of what I would choose.


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## porkchop (Oct 5, 2011)

I love the 1290 2k's that we have. Troupers feel bulky and poorly balanced in comparison. Like ship mentioned you have better control over the beam with the Lycians. The M2's beam never seems to be as bright as the wattage would suggest but I have a feeling that in my application the throw is longer than the M2's are designed for and that's why. I like Lycian over Super Troupers hands down.


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## mstaylor (Oct 6, 2011)

porkchop said:


> I love the 1290 2k's that we have. Troupers feel bulky and poorly balanced in comparison. Like ship mentioned you have better control over the beam with the Lycians. The M2's beam never seems to be as bright as the wattage would suggest but I have a feeling that in my application the throw is longer than the M2's are designed for and that's why. I like Lycian over Super Troupers hands down.


I like the look of a Lycian but I absolutely hate to run them. They are the most frustrating things I have ever touched. I have run carbon Troupers, Super Troupers and Gladiators, both carbon and Xenon. I can run them and never look to what I am grabbing. I use a Lycian and I have to think about every move I make.


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## chausman (Oct 6, 2011)

derekleffew said:


> There are several reasonable cost upgrades available for older Xenon Super Troupers, all of which will be less costly than replacing the fixtures.


 
(Sorry for the off topic)
Where have you seen one of those upgrades? I know some people who have some Xenon Super Troupers, and don't have any lamps left. (I have heard more then one of those lamps "explode"...and still work)


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## Les (Oct 6, 2011)

One more minor hijack. How do you pronounce Lycian? I've always used Lie-see-in, with an emphasis on 'see'. My LD friend called them "Lickin". I wanted to call him out, but I figured I'd better check first!

Or is it Lie-see-ann?


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## mstaylor (Oct 6, 2011)

Ordering new lamps are no problem. Lamps exploding shouldn't be a problem to operating. Putting new lamps in is not for the faint of heart. Because they explode, you don't want just anybody trying to install them. I tell my ops that if they lose a lamp during a show, shu it down and get me. I will not let them install them.


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## mstaylor (Oct 6, 2011)

Les said:


> One more minor hijack. How do you pronounce Lycian? I've always used Lie-see-in, with an emphasis on 'see'. My LD friend called them "Lickin". I wanted to call him out, but I figured I'd better check first!
> 
> Or is it Lie-see-ann?


Lie-see-in with the accent on Lie. Or at least that is how I pronounce it and everybody I have done advances with have not questioned it.


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## derekleffew (Oct 6, 2011)

chausman said:


> (Sorry for the off topic)
> Where have you seen one of those upgrades? ...


Where I've seen the upgrades is irrelevant. Contact Strong if you are interested.
There are three simple upgrades for older xenon Supers:
1. Reflector
2. Heat glass
3. Projection Lens.
There's also a new rear operator panel with a better ammeter, and of course replacing the magnetic ballast with an electronic one.


chausman said:


> I know some people who have some Xenon Super Troupers, and don't have any lamps left. (I have heard more then one of those lamps "explode"...and still work)


Well, I've only been working with xenon lamps since 1980, and have only witnessed two lamp explosions inside the lamp house, so you must have more experience than me. But in both of my cases, once the lamp "exploded," it no longer continued to emit light. 


The XBO2000W/H 2K SuperTrouper/1290XLT lamp costs about $500-600, but is warranted for, I believe, 2000 hours. No other followspot lamp offers as much bang for the buck (no pun intended).
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Cmunoz said:


> ...but I am a big fan of the way a lycian is layed out. All my spot ops like using them way better than a super trouper. ...


To each his own. But one of my peeves with Lycian (and RJ for that matter) is that just about every model is laid out differently. I wonder if the RJ folks sit around dreaming about how they can put the douser in a different place. Why the top handles on a 1290 are different from the Super, I'll never understand.


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## chausman (Oct 6, 2011)

derekleffew said:


> There are three simple upgrades for older xenon Supers:
> 1. Reflector
> 2. Heat glass
> 3. Projection Lens.
> ...


 
Ok, when I read your post, "I was thinking upgrade from xenon to something else."

I wouldn't say I have more experience... (wouldnt really want to say that either)

I guess "explode" isn't the best word for it. The lamp made a very loud bang, and quit working. Once when I was in the spot booth, once when I was on headset. Both times, it would reignite a while later. I don't know what word would be better then explode though. We've been having problems with the spots, and our local supplier doesn't have what we need (being the only place in town with super troupers) but I don't know if they could order it, probably could. Thanks. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## porkchop (Oct 6, 2011)

mstaylor said:


> I like the look of a Lycian but I absolutely hate to run them. They are the most frustrating things I have ever touched. I have run carbon Troupers, Super Troupers and Gladiators, both carbon and Xenon. I can run them and never look to what I am grabbing. I use a Lycian and I have to think about every move I make.


 
Sounds like you're just accustom to the Trouper. It's second nature like that for me on a Lycian.


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## PeteEngel (Oct 6, 2011)

derekleffew said:


> To each his own. But one of my peeves with Lycian (and RJ for that matter) is that just about every model is laid out differently. I wonder if the RJ folks sit around dreaming about how they can put the douser in a different place. Why the top handles on a 1290 are different from the Super, I'll never understand.


 
Followspot operation is a relatively personal experience for most operators. If you've done it for any length of time you get to like and dislike many different fixtures. To each their own. No harm or fault in that. Each manufacturer builds their fixtures so there is some identity, whether for operational or aesthetic reasons. Since this is a Lycian thread i won't wax philosophical on the pro's and con's of fixtures not related to the topic but I do have 3 bits of info to share. 

1. Derek, except for the entry level Buxie followspot, all RJ followspots have the douser located at the ergonomic control handle level, forward of the tilt pivot point, right where the right hand of the operator will naturally find it without stretching or fumbling when they are in position to operate the light. The only difference is that over time douser mechanical concepts have evolved and on the compact range of fixtures have become a roller operated belt drive douser, while the long throw fixtures utilize a rotary knob either located on the lens tube or integrated into the ergonomic control handle (which I prefer to operate). RJ keeps the standard operating controls off the top of the fixture. This helps operators avoid excessive heat at the controls (who hasn't burned their left arm at one point or another). I have also found that i don't suffer from "spot shoulder" due to having my left arm hanging in an upward position to operate the iris/douser/chopper controls. But as i said, to each their own on followspot operations and needs. Just thought i'd clear that "RJ douser" thing up. 

2. Porkchop, the probably reason you perceive an output difference with your M2's is that they operate with a different optical system than a Super Trouper (or a 1290 for that matter). Condenser optics systems collect light differently than an elliptical reflector. Condenser Optics are about Quality of light and a flat field without having to continually futz with optimization and lamp rotation. The HMI lamp is inherently more stable and safe than a xenon lamp as well. The rest is probably better left to a different thread. 

3. To the OP, the electronic ballast is lighter and probably attached to the fixture (Lycian), depending upon the wattage and fixture type. If you are moving the fixtures around the electronic ballast makes things easier. Electronic ballasts do set up an electronic buzz in the fixture/lamp. It can be a bit disconcerting and distracting if the fixture is in an exposed area near the audience. The Magnetic ballast is heavier but quieter (in my experience), and easier and probably cheaper to maintain as an end user. Have fun picking out your new fixtures and enjoy!


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## mstaylor (Oct 6, 2011)

porkchop said:


> Sounds like you're just accustom to the Trouper. It's second nature like that for me on a Lycian.


Absolutely, I like the output in my building of my Lycians. I bought three M2s and they compete easily with my supers, I just can't run the blame things. Call me old and set in my ways, I'm OK with that. The other thing I don't like is you have to cut and load the gel boomerang. They do make Lycians that will use Super frames but mine do not. 

chausman said:


> I guess "explode" isn't the best word for it. The lamp made a very loud bang, and quit working. Once when I was in the spot booth, once when I was on headset. Both times, it would reignite a while later. I don't know what word would be better then explode though.


I have never had a Super make a bang or explosion noise without it actually blowing up the lamp. If that happens you just clean the light and replace the lamp. I've had lights quit operating and come back later, for a variety of reasons but never had a bang associated with it. 
I can't stress enough how dangerous it is to handle the xenon lamps. I have a nearby arena that hires me just to replace their lamps. Obviously that is a rare occasion, the last time it wasn't a bad lamp, it was a bad ignitor. I told them that before I changed the lamp but they wanted me to do it anyway to eliminate it from the mix.


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## SteveB (Oct 6, 2011)

This is my garb for xenon lamp changing. Lead lined jacket, Kevlar gloves, face shield as well as glasses.


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## derekleffew (Oct 6, 2011)

SteveB said:


> This is my garb for xenon lamp changing. Lead lined jacket, Kevlar gloves, face shield as well as glasses.


All that PPE, and yet you're standing in front of carbon-arcs (projectors, I assume) that use asbestos wiring! Just sayin'.


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## Les (Oct 6, 2011)

Just how dangerous? I think this video has surfaced here before.


Exploding Projector Bulb - YouTube

Those [-]idiots[/-] gentlemen with less than stellar judgement are very lucky.


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## SteveB (Oct 6, 2011)

derekleffew said:


> All that PPE, and yet you're standing in front of carbon-arcs (projectors, I assume) that use asbestos wiring! Just sayin'.



Sigh..... not even getting into the arguments I had with our in-house projectionist about that !. 

This photo is a couple of years old and he has since wrapped the external projector wiring in a fiberglass sheathing. I'm not looking inside the machines. 

I did finally call our Health and Safety officer who helped figure out a solution. You can encapsulate asbestos apparantly, but I stayed out of it.


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## mstaylor (Oct 6, 2011)

Encapsulation is a pretty fine solution. It's the airborne particles that are dangerous. This is why when you see them pull asbestos on tv they have a positive air flow chamber and they wet the material, it keeps it from becoming airborne. If there is pipe insulation intact, many times they just wrap it with PVC sheeting.


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## zmb (Oct 6, 2011)

SteveB said:


> This is my garb for xenon lamp changing. Lead lined jacket, Kevlar gloves, face shield as well as glasses.


 
Why lead lined?


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## SteveB (Oct 6, 2011)

zmb said:


> Why lead lined?


 
Does double duty in an x-ray room.

Actually the jacket is lined with something heavy that feels like lead when you wear it. I cannot remember where I got them (I purchased 2 sets of shields/coats/gloves), possibly Grainger, as they sell this one, so probably Kevlar lined

Jacket, Leather, 30 In - Welding Clothing - Protective Clothing - 2AG83 : Grainger Industrial Supply


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## JD (Oct 6, 2011)

Gee, never had to worry about the carbon rods exploding in the good old days! 

I've had Super Troupers and currently have a Lycian. Not many spots feel like real spots after you have been spoiled by Strong. (My own opinion.)


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