# mixer with cues?



## heatmiser (Mar 23, 2010)

hello all.

i am the sound manager for my school's theater productions. our production this year, thanks to a crazy director that wants 26 lavs, is pretty much hell.

our lighting guy has 2 boards, each where they program cues in, and then when the actual show happens, they hit go and everything just happens.

i know there are sound boards out there that can do this, i just don't know any specific models to look for.

cheers


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## Footer (Mar 23, 2010)

This is a pretty basic function of any digital audio console. Most theatre people tend to lean towards the Yamaha line. The M7, PM5D, LS9, DM1000, and 01V are regularly found in theaters. 

Keep in mind however that writing a "cue" or a "scene" as it is referred to in the sound world is a starting point. It does not mean you can just sit back and let the console mix for you. Some consoles are also limited to 99 scenes which can fill up very fast. The console will get you close to where you need to stat with levels, EQ, and routing. You still have to be an active part of the show.


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## heatmiser (Mar 23, 2010)

Footer said:


> Keep in mind however that writing a "cue" or a "scene" as it is referred to in the sound world is a starting point. It does not mean you can just sit back and let the console mix for you. Some consoles are also limited to 99 scenes which can fill up very fast. The console will get you close to where you need to stat with levels, EQ, and routing. You still have to be an active part of the show.



thanks for the info. i am very aware that i still need to mix. but having to keep 26 lavs straight on my own is an absolute *****. if i could just set up cues for things to turn on and off that would be a godsend.


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## Footer (Mar 23, 2010)

You could also get an analog console with mute groups. Its not as great as having flying faders but it is still better then nothing. Most newer large format analog consoles have mute groups.


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## gpforet (Mar 23, 2010)

Flying Faders have nothing to do with automated muting.

If anything, the faders will not move between cues. The goal is to mute the mic send to all outputs, including aux. sends and monitors. This is not a fader function.


Footer said:


> You could also get an analog console with mute groups. Its not as great as having flying faders but it is still better then nothing. Most newer large format analog consoles have mute groups.


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## doctrjohn (Mar 23, 2010)

heatmiser said:


> thanks for the info. i am very aware that i still need to mix. but having to keep 26 lavs straight on my own is an absolute *****. if i could just set up cues for things to turn on and off that would be a godsend.



If you are able to get your hands on a digital mixer with decent MIDI implementation, you should take a look at Chris Hubbard's Palladium. It will allow, depending on audio console, you to program fader moves, mutes, EQ, etc.. It will talk to anything that can listen to MIDI, so I have used it to trigger lighting consoles, SFX rigs, external FX processors, etc... It is very fast and very intuitive. As has been mentioned: you still have to mix your show. But it is an excellent tool to help you along.

I apologize for the commercial; I have no vested interested in Palladium but I am a very satisfied user. While you are on his site, you should also check out Micplot. You enter some basic character and script information in to the software and it can help you figure out how many mics and transmitters you need for your show, as well as outputting a spreadsheet detailing who has what pack when and when they need to hand it off.

Good luck with your show.
Best,
John


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## Anonymous067 (Mar 23, 2010)

heatmiser said:


> thanks for the info. i am very aware that i still need to mix. but having to keep 26 lavs straight on my own is an absolute *****. if i could just set up cues for things to turn on and off that would be a godsend.



You seam to be scared by a mere 26 inputs. No offense but a lot of people here do that regularly and it's boring...

Have you considered that instead of running 26 lavs you could have actors switch off packs? For example if actor 1 is in the beginning and actor 2 is only in the end, have them hand off mics at intermission! Saves on batteries and board channels. 

While a digital board is nice, I doubt you'll justify the price of buying one for just one show.

BTW-bad idea to call your director crazy.


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## Anonymous067 (Mar 23, 2010)

gpforet said:


> Flying Faders have nothing to do with automated muting.
> 
> If anything, the faders will not move between cues. The goal is to mute the mic send to all outputs, including aux. sends and monitors. This is not a fader function.



Correct...however...

You may want to have certain people at certain levels for different scenes or songs...this is a nice feature of digital.

Meanwhile, I'll make my sound board ops write every single move in their scripts.


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## DaveySimps (Mar 23, 2010)

> You seam to be scared by a mere 26 inputs. No offense but a lot of people here do that regularly and it's boring...
> 
> Have you considered that instead of running 26 lavs you could have actors switch off packs? For example if actor 1 is in the beginning and actor 2 is only in the end, have them hand off mics at intermission! Saves on batteries and board channels.
> 
> ...



The OP by his own admission is a high school student doing a student production. At this level of the game where a tech is still developing their chops at mixing, 26 inputs can be overwhelming, especially when they are lav mics where large groups of them need to turn on and off at the same time. Keep in mind, this is an education forum.

Also, his school many not be able to justify buying a new board, they certainly may be able to rent one for a week or two. Many schools do for their annual musical.

Swapping mics does help when mics are limited. However, having mics dedicated to each character is much better from my experience. You do not have to worry about mics not getting swapped properly, and having to adjust the eq / gain / board settings for the new actor. 

If the funds are available, there is no arguing that a digital board (when programmed properly) certainly makes the job handling that many lavs easier no matter what level you are working at.

~Dave


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## avkid (Mar 24, 2010)

Blah067 said:


> You seam to be scared by a mere 26 inputs. No offense but a lot of people here do that regularly and it's boring...


I'll do 26 inputs all day on a rock show and not break a sweat.
But 26 channels of wireless is a whole lot more to worry about than just the number of inputs.


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## soundlight (Mar 24, 2010)

avkid said:


> I'll do 26 inputs all day on a rock show and not break a sweat.
> But 26 channels of wireless is a whole lot more to worry about than just the number of inputs.



Very, very true. 26 channels of wireless lavs, especially if they almost all end up on stage at the same time, is definitely not a walk in the park.


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## jkowtko (Mar 24, 2010)

... and that's why assignable VCAs were invented ....


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## avkid (Mar 24, 2010)

jkowtko said:


> ... and that's why assignable VCAs were invented ....


VCA's don't solve RF problems and actors that screw with things.


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## Morpheus (Mar 24, 2010)

avkid said:


> VCA's don't solve RF problems and actors that screw with things.


but they should.
that would be cool - a board where you could assign the actors themselves to a mute group


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## TimmyP1955 (Mar 24, 2010)

With 24 channels, and keeping the price affordable, you are looking at renting an O1V/96 and a couple of preamps, an LS9-16 with preamps, an LS9-32, or a Roland 400.

We just did The Man Who Came to Dinner. We ran only 14 mics IIRC, and had about 130 cues. We run fader cues instead of mute cues. If the operator gets off cue and has to go manual, it's a lot more natural to grab faders than to start punching mutes.

We run everything but the faders recall safe, so that if we need to change an EQ or gain (mic shifts position, voice gets weak), we don't have to save the change to every cue.


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## BigBC68 (Mar 30, 2010)

soundlight said:


> Very, very true. 26 channels of wireless lavs, especially if they almost all end up on stage at the same time, is definitely not a walk in the park.



Very true. Although I've had to mix ~46 channels for a musical before. 20 wireless lavs, 3 crown pccs, 2 flown shotguns (to pick up tapping on the second level of a set piece!), and the rest orchestra. That show SUCKED.


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## museav (Mar 31, 2010)

Some random thoughts....

You noted 26 wireless mics, but how many other inputs? How many outputs? If it's 26 wireless mics plus an orchestra or band plus playback, etc. the total count could be much higher.

While renting a digital console may be fairly easy, learning to configure, program and use the console may be more involved, especially if there is no one experienced with that console or even digital consoles in general to assist you. This could be a great learning experience but is it practical if it is just for one production?

Programming a digital console requires already having a good basic understanding of mixing. If the difficulty is simply having to mute or adjust multiple channels at once then a digital console (or any console with mute groups and/or VCAs/DCAs) could help there, but if the issue is a more general not knowing how to best deal with the 26 wireless mics then a digital console won't fix that by itself. Just like the computer it is, it will only do what you tell it and not give you the answers. You pretty much have to at least logically if not physically be able to mix the show manually in order to now what you wan to program a digital console to do.

Cues or scenes may help tremendously with situations like a bunch of actors going on or off stage but they will usually not be effective with dealing with things like when two or more actors with mics get close to one another or addressing the changes required to level, EQ, etc. when an understudy performs.


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## Anonymous067 (Mar 31, 2010)

museav said:


> etc. when an understudy performs.



Understudies bother me for this very reason....


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## Tex (Apr 4, 2010)

Blah067 said:


> Understudies bother me for this very reason....


I like understudies.
No understudies = canceled performance = no money
It's all about butts on seats...


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## Anonymous067 (Apr 4, 2010)

Tex said:


> I like understudies.
> No understudies = canceled performance = no money
> It's all about butts on seats...



yea yeah...


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## Gofer (Apr 4, 2010)

My high school runs a yamaha m7cl and we have around 26 inputs (16 lavs, 6 overheads, 4 boundaries) and the automation certainly makes life a lot easier. The problem with renting a board like that, which i believe was stated before, is that learning how to use it in a short amount of time is hard. In my opinion anything you can do to reduce the amount of mic changes and switching on and off by the actors will be useful since actors (at least at the high school level) are stupid and when they have to do anything to the mics they tend to screw them up. While the yamaha's are great if your working on a budget they can be quite expensive, I'd reccomend checking out the tascam dm4800 which, at $7,000, is significantly cheaper than the m7cl ($25,000) even though the tascam isn't nessecarily a "live board" it should have most of the features your looking for including midi functionality.


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## Parker (Apr 4, 2010)

TimmyP1955 said:


> With 24 channels, and keeping the price affordable, you are looking at renting an O1V/96 and a couple of preamps, an LS9-16 with preamps, an LS9-32, or a Roland 400.
> 
> We just did The Man Who Came to Dinner. We ran only 14 mics IIRC, and had about 130 cues. We run fader cues instead of mute cues. If the operator gets off cue and has to go manual, it's a lot more natural to grab faders than to start punching mutes.
> 
> We run everything but the faders recall safe, so that if we need to change an EQ or gain (mic shifts position, voice gets weak), we don't have to save the change to every cue.



Agreed about the fader cues...
We run an LS9-32 at my theatre and it works very well for "cueing" the next group(s) of mics "on the fly" it is very easy to mark the script (similar to lighting cues) and then press one of the user-defined-keys (essentially shortcuts) to advance forward to the next cue (bringing the next group up to a nominal level). Nice little trick to have in your back pocket.


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