# Alright.... I'll bite ETC....



## Pie4Weebl (Dec 24, 2015)

What's this "4WRD Thinking" add all about? 

You guys make an LED HPL lamp or somethin?


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## ScottT (Dec 25, 2015)

I haven't see the ad, but:

$599
3000K
DMX controllable, or controlled through a dimmer
RJ45
Equivalent to a 575x
Direct replacement for the cap - no other changes necessary
Only for the S4. Not the S4 PAR.


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## Brian L. Ollom (Dec 25, 2015)

Is there a link to this item somewhere?

Thanks!


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## ScottT (Dec 25, 2015)

http://www.etcconnect.com/Products/4wrd.aspx

You'll probably start seeing preliminary spec sheets early/mid February.


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## Amiers (Dec 25, 2015)

I was hoping for a wireless desk that jacked into any system, straight plug and play. Supplied with its own transmitter. On a frequency that doesn't interrupt. 

Hopes and dreams though.


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## SteveB (Dec 25, 2015)

Reminds me of the old line about how a $50,000 wireless microphone is almost as good as a mic. with a wire.


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## AlexDonkle (Dec 26, 2015)

Didn't SteveTerry post a little while ago about hiring new people for a moving light division?


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## Amiers (Dec 26, 2015)

AlexDonkle said:


> Didn't SteveTerry post a little while ago about hiring new people for a moving light division?




He did. I wouldn't be surprised if this is the Dev Team.


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## Les (Dec 26, 2015)

Of all the things we need, are more moving lights one of them? Hopefully the're unique if this is the case.


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## techieman33 (Dec 26, 2015)

Les said:


> Of all the things we need, are more moving lights one of them? Hopefully the're unique if this is the case.



As long as it says ETC on the box people will line up in droves to buy them. Doesn't matter if it's unique, or even inferior to other products out there on the market.


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## danTt (Dec 26, 2015)

techieman33 said:


> As long as it says ETC on the box people will line up in droves to buy them. Doesn't matter if it's unique, or even inferior to other products out there on the market.



And then there's the Revolution...


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## SteveB (Dec 26, 2015)

Les said:


> Of all the things we need, are more moving lights one of them? Hopefully the're unique if this is the case.



In my opinion, ETC does LED color better then anyone else. Thus I'd love to have a zoomable Desire D60 as a moving head. If you don't need the eye candy look of an Aura or GLP or the like, it would be a killer unit.


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## Thetechmanmac (Dec 26, 2015)

All I see is "19 people comprise the development team"...


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## BillConnerFASTC (Dec 26, 2015)

SteveB said:


> In my opinion, ETC does LED color better then anyone else. Thus I'd love to have a zoomable Desire D60 as a moving head. If you don't need the eye candy look of an Aura or GLP or the like, it would be a killer unit.


Clarify what you mean by "does LED color better"? Redder reds and bluer blues or more quartz like whites and better paler color media matches?


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## STEVETERRY (Dec 26, 2015)

Thetechmanmac said:


> All I see is "19 people comprise the development team"...



Patience will be rewarded.

ST


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## STEVETERRY (Dec 26, 2015)

techieman33 said:


> As long as it says ETC on the box people will line up in droves to buy them. Doesn't matter if it's unique, or even inferior to other products out there on the market.



And perhaps there's a reason for that behavior, if true?

ST


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## techieman33 (Dec 26, 2015)

STEVETERRY said:


> And perhaps there's a reason for that behavior, if true?
> 
> ST



I'm not saying ETC doesn't make some great products. The blind loyalty that I see a lot of people exhibit towards them does bother me though. I've met to many people that think if ETC made it then it must be the best and don't even look at other competing products. That bothers me.


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## SteveB (Dec 26, 2015)

BillConnerASTC said:


> Clarify what you mean by "does LED color better"? Redder reds and bluer blues or more quartz like whites and better paler color media matches?



On the occasions we've had shows bringing in GLP or Robe's, I've gotten to play a bit with what the color engine can produce. Plus I use Aura's extensively. Nothing I've yet seen matches the spectrum of color I've seen out of a Lustre 2 engine. Even a ColorSource Par does tints and white better then my Aura's, even though the CS cannot produce deeper blues and violets, as can what I call a R&R LED. Note this is far from an exhaustive test of any kind, just a very subjective opinion. 

Thus when somebody asks me "what's next for ETC" I usually reply that I'd love to see a Desire D60 in the size of an Aura, moving and zooming like an Aura, which is otherwise the benchmark for that sized fixture, of that era (it's 5 or so years old now ?). In a theatrical venue, the color a D60 (or Lustre 2) can put out makes matching to an incandescent rig easier, thus it would be my choice.

And as to a love affair with ETC ?, I recently spec'd a grant for Color Force 72's for our Cyc, liking the punch and Cyc optics. I'd be happy with Vivid R's as well, but the pricing on the CF might make the grant easier to obtain. Thus I always consider options.


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## MikeJ (Dec 27, 2015)

AlexDonkle said:


> Didn't SteveTerry post a little while ago about hiring new people for a moving light division?


I assume everyone who worked on the revolution had to find other work, like working on something with a lot more potential, like the relaunch of BetaMax, or the long awaited 2nd season of the XFL.


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## rsmentele (Dec 28, 2015)

As far as I know... they are still looking to build a team for the automated lighting division. See their job listings. 

Because of that, I doubt that it will be anything automated. 

I'm gonna make a guess that based on the image they have in the ad it may be some sort of back end replacement for a Source 4 to change it to LED? But that's just a guess.


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## ScottT (Dec 28, 2015)

rsmentele said:


> As far as I know... they are still looking to build a team for the automated lighting division. See their job listings.


And this product has been in development for longer than ETC's been searching for the automated lighting team.


rsmentele said:


> I'm gonna make a guess that based on the image they have in the ad it may be some sort of back end replacement for a Source 4 to change it to LED? But that's just a guess.


I posted the specs (as I remember them) in the second post in this thread.


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## Les (Dec 28, 2015)

rsmentele said:


> based on the image they have in the ad it may be some sort of back end replacement for a Source 4 to change it to LED? But that's just a guess.



Looks like a spark plug to me. Maybe they're building their first car!


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## JimOC_1 (Dec 28, 2015)

Is that with or without pulling the reflector?


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## danTt (Dec 28, 2015)

techieman33 said:


> I'm not saying ETC doesn't make some great products. The blind loyalty that I see a lot of people exhibit towards them does bother me though. I've met to many people that think if ETC made it then it must be the best and don't even look at other competing products. That bothers me.



My "blind" brand loyalty to ETC comes primarily from the fact that I know that if I have an issue with an ETC product, ETC will bend over backwards to repair it, and make sure that my show functions in the mean time. Their technical support is second to none. 

If I have an issue with an Altman product, I'm left talking to their regional sales manager, and the entirety of the tech support I've gotten from the regional sales manager is "It's probably a bad dmx cable".

I had a broken Phillips Color Kinetics TRX earlier this year. It took me (and my vendor) three months to get phillips to a) decide the product was no longer under warranty, and b) source and send me a replacement interface board. I feel confident that if the issue had been with one my of D40's, I would have had the parts or a repair within a week. That right there is a great reason to buy ETC, in my not so humble opinion.


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## MikeJ (Dec 28, 2015)

Thetechmanmac said:


> All I see is "19 people comprise the development team"...


its really a big team effort to build a web page. They also have a team of 6 to update twitter.


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## JChenault (Dec 29, 2015)

Les said:


> Looks like a spark plug to me. Maybe they're building their first car!



To my eye it looks like some kind of wireless DMX device. Perhaps going after the show baby market?


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## GreyWyvern (Dec 29, 2015)

Alright.... I'll bite ETC....


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## MikeJ (Dec 30, 2015)

I really don't give a Crap how many people are working on it or how many labor hours it took. If the product is good, I'll buy it, if it's junk, then I won't.
Until, someone has a spec sheet or at least a demo of a prototype, adds like this are a wast of my time; at least give some useful information.

Client: "I really need to do an LED retrofit for my space. Need to have a bid in this week"
ME: "Well there are some good products from Altman or Chauvet we can use, or can you push it back a little; ETC has something new coming out soon?"
Client: "Maybe, What is it?"
ME: "The best guess right now is a spark plug."
Client: "No in that case, we can't Wait, grounds crew just ordered a gross of Champions for the lawn mowers."


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## MNicolai (Dec 30, 2015)

If I had to guess, this patent application is probably relevant to this discussion...


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## epimetheus (Dec 31, 2015)

MNicolai said:


> If I had to guess, this patent application is probably relevant to this discussion...



The patent is a fascinating read. I'm particularly insterested in the SynJet cooling and the process by which the LED substrates are attached to the heat pipe assembly. Can't wait to get a first hand account of the product.


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## AsherSB (Dec 31, 2015)

Whatever it is, I still want to see improvement on the S4 Jr., A small sub-$500 LED ellipsoidal would let tons of tiny venues upgrade without worrying about added heat output or electrical draw. Also a good low budget console, like a mini element, but that's for another thread..


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## AlexDonkle (Jan 5, 2016)

Les said:


> Looks like a spark plug to me. Maybe they're building their first car!



Source 4 headlights for cars!!!!


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## MrMagLit (Jan 7, 2016)

Some image editing reveals what seems to be a large fan...


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## JohnD (Jan 8, 2016)

OK, if it is a replacement lamp cap, how about taking that further. Consider the Diversitronics strobe lamp cap for those times you want to strobe your lightning bolt gobo. Which brings up the question, how effectively can you program say a Lustre 2 to strobe? Going even further, how about a quality UV lamp cap, imagine a UV fixture with framing shutters, or a S4 on a stick UV followspot? We know that LEDs can do a great UV from the Apollo Avere.


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## Amiers (Jan 8, 2016)

MrMagLit said:


> Some image editing reveals what seems to be a large fan...



It's not a fan, that is just the vents for the enormous heat sink for the LED driver. Look at the patent that Mike posted.


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## Luke Holliger (Jan 8, 2016)

So I have an opportunity to preview this new product on Monday. I will keep you all updated.


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## AsherSB (Jan 9, 2016)

Goatman said:


> A good low-budget console by ETC already exists.
> 
> https://www.etcconnect.com/Products/Consoles/Cobalt-Family/Nomad/Features.aspx



The Nomad is nothing like the Cognito2, Stage CL, Smartfade, or any other dedicated console. Many small theaters want the reliability of not using a PC, and the near astronomic cost makes the Nomad an incredibly inconvenient solution for the small venue market.


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## theatricalmatt (Jan 10, 2016)

@Amiers -- The patent does actually mention a fan (item 41 in illustration 2B), toward the rear of the heat0sink assembly, about where the photograph indicates.

I'm interested in whether it will be as noticeable as some other fans in theatrical fixtures. Many companies post dB ratings of their equipment, specifically for use in studio and theater applications.


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## Amiers (Jan 10, 2016)

I take that back. I must of skimmed over that section. I somehow did see that it was liquid cooled. Which ironically is in the same paragraph.


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## Pie4Weebl (Jan 10, 2016)

From a poster on the "everything stage lighting" facebook.

"So the official release of the ETC 4wrd is tomorrow, but here's a sneak peek I got today at a CITT event.
155W power usage, dimmable down to ~5% or direct DMX control which turns off dim-ability. (Electronics need a minimum voltage to operate hence the minimum dimming level)
Directly swaps for existing ETC S4 hats with enough clearance for the bolts on your clamp to clear plus a hair when tilting (it is snug though)
List price ~$600USD
White only, no color mixing. (But reduced heat so gels will burn out slower, they WILL still burn through saturated gels though.)
Intended as a replacement/upgrade to existing fixtures for reducing power usage, not a real 'pro' LED solution like the Lustr+2 system is.
Essentially the exact same output as a 575W recently rebulbed fixture with a slightly shifted color temperature. (About 200K difference) (I do not know what specific bulb brand was in used in the comparison fixture)"


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## robartsd (Jan 11, 2016)

Pie4Weebl said:


> From a poster on the "everything stage lighting" facebook.
> 
> "So the official release of the ETC 4wrd is tomorrow, but here's a sneak peek I got today at a CITT event.
> 155W power usage, dimmable down to ~5% or direct DMX control which turns off dim-ability. (Electronics need a minimum voltage to operate hence the minimum dimming level)
> ..."


I think someone should develop a retrofit LED that modifies the dimming curve so that it has a smooth fade to black before the power is insufficient for to opperate the electronics. A profile on the control board or a curve in the dimmer could translate 1-100% control to 10-100% power and the fixture could translate 10-100% power to 1-100% light.

It will be interesting to hear shootout comparisions of a Source 4 with 4WRD to a Chavet Ovation ED. So far it looks like the Source 4 with 4WRD will be less expensive even if you have to buy a Source 4 new to retrofit.


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## theatricalmatt (Jan 11, 2016)

Oh, I imagine within a month or three they'll have a S4WRD cap + fixture package available for sale. They might just be negotiating that price with vendors right now.

I wonder if, like the Lustr's, they'll be pushing EDLT fixtures. That seems to raise the price considerably. If I understand the situation correctly, the 'original' lenses are no longer protected by patent, but the EDLT tubes are, which might be why they're pushing them.

From what I see on the patent, it only has RJ45 inputs; somehow I think that means getting a lot of pin converters, rather than discovering all of the devices on a network. But I'll wait for more information from the manufacturer.


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## sk8rsdad (Jan 11, 2016)

Be careful using a patent application in place of a design document. Patents are meant to secure the intellectual property and usually attempt to include all the obvious variants. Don't assume that the vendor is making that variant.


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## Amiers (Jan 11, 2016)

@Pie4Weebl did you happen to get any close ups and cap off pictures?


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## Pie4Weebl (Jan 11, 2016)

Amiers said:


> @Pie4Weebl did you happen to get any close ups and cap off pictures?


Not my photos, I just reposted them, I didn't see any others on the thread, I too am curious what the LED array looks like.


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## ScottT (Jan 11, 2016)

Pie4Weebl said:


> Not my photos, I just reposted them, I didn't see any others on the thread, I too am curious what the LED array looks like.



On the version I saw, the array is *identical* to the one in the patent application.


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## gafftaper (Jan 11, 2016)

NOTE: The side debate about Smartfade, Nomad, and low budget consoles was getting a bit out of control here and has been removed to it's own discussion thread here.


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## Scenemaster60 (Jan 12, 2016)

The first version of the spec sheet has been released. Here is a link to the ETC product page:
https://www.etcconnect.com/S4WRD/

Also, according to FB, my Twin Cities colleagues Bill Healey and Marcus Dillard are doing a shoot-out at the University of MN as I type this!


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## Thetechmanmac (Jan 12, 2016)

Scenemaster60 said:


> Also, according to FB, my Twin Cities colleagues Bill Healey and Marcus Dillard are doing a shoot-out at the University of MN as I type this!



I will be very interested to see how S4WRD compares to tungsten. If it's at the right price, ths could really beneficial for a lot of venues with a high number of conventionals.


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## MNicolai (Jan 12, 2016)

I'm curious if you do a hybrid setup where some fixtures are dimmed via AC dimming and some are dimmed via DMX how the dimming curves compare.


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## Scenemaster60 (Jan 12, 2016)

OK, here are the pics that got posted from the "shoot-out". 
The left half is a traditional HPL 575 watt/115 volt/X (long-life) lamp, color temp 3050k
The right half is the S4WRD, 155 watts, color temp 3000k, CRI 80
ECT is giving an introductory list price of $599.


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## zwolf59661 (Jan 12, 2016)

This could also be a viable solution for venues with older systems. Like one venue I've been to, which didn't have a dedicated dimming panel, just a number of circuit breakers feeding into a bunch of 4-channel dimmer packs. Kept blowing fuses all through rehearsal, and had to station one of the tech crew backstage next to the panel in case something tripped during the show.


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## RickR (Jan 12, 2016)

The retrofit is rated at 30,000 hours. If you pay .12/KWH you will save $558 in power over it's life. Other savings exist; HVAC, lamps, labor, (maybe) dimmers, etc. 

They recommend 2 units per D20 in AC mode due to a 30A inrush. Also they approve using dimmers set to full if regulation is turned off. Important to know!


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## Thetechmanmac (Jan 12, 2016)

Where's the DMX in on the unit? I think its RJ45 in/thru. I guess ETC will supply a RJ45 to DMX male/female?


Scenemaster60 said:


> OK, here are the pics that got posted from the "shoot-out".
> The left half is a traditional HPL 575 watt/115 volt/X (long-life) lamp, color temp 3050k
> The right half is the S4WRD, 155 watts, color temp 3000k, CRI 80
> ECT is giving an introductory list price of $599.View attachment 12877View attachment 12878View attachment 12879View attachment 12880View attachment 12881View attachment 12882View attachment 12883



That's actually a lot closer than I thought it would be. Especially with color in it. Just not quite as bright as a true S4. Thanks for sharing!


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## Robert (Jan 13, 2016)

http://www.etcconnect.com/S4WRD/


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## theatricalmatt (Jan 13, 2016)

I knew something was throwing me off in the pictures -- no more brass knurled knob!


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## Thetechmanmac (Jan 13, 2016)

Is there any way to get a demo unit?


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## Jim Uphoff (Jan 13, 2016)

RickR said:


> The retrofit is rated at 30,000 hours. If you pay .12/KWH you will save $558 in power over it's life. Other savings exist; HVAC, lamps, labor, (maybe) dimmers, etc.
> 
> They recommend 2 units per D20 in AC mode due to a 30A inrush. Also they approve using dimmers set to full if regulation is turned off. Important to know!




Just to be clear, the reason we recommend 2 units per D20 is for dimming performance. More than 2 may cause the dimmer to misfire. If you are just powering them off of a D20 in switched mode and dimming with DMX, you can put 14 on a circuit.


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## SteveB (Jan 13, 2016)

Thetechmanmac said:


> Where's the DMX in on the unit? I think its RJ45 in/thru. I guess ETC will supply a RJ45 to DMX male/female?
> 
> 
> 
> That's actually a lot closer than I thought it would be. Especially with color in it. Just not quite as bright as a true S4. Thanks for sharing!



Maybe it's me, but the LED has a color that looks like an Altman 360 with a 500w T12 lamp


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## sk8rsdad (Jan 13, 2016)

It is very difficult to see the actual colour is from any picture. The CCD in whatever device was used to take the picture does not react the same way as an eyeball.


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## JChenault (Jan 13, 2016)

sk8rsdad said:


> It is very difficult to see the actual colour is from any picture. The CCD in whatever device was used to take the picture does not react the same way as an eyeball.



True. Although the photos do indicate a bump in the blues as you would expect.

Thanks for putting the fabric in the photos. Interesting to see the differences.


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## NateJanota (Jan 13, 2016)

sk8rsdad said:


> It is very difficult to see the actual colour is from any picture. The CCD in whatever device was used to take the picture does not react the same way as an eyeball.



Was just about to say this but sk8rsdad beat me to it. I will say, even from the picture, the LED engine does a wonderful job bringing out the details in the fabric without washing out the other colors.


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## firewater88 (Jan 14, 2016)

Just saw a demo of these side by side with a 575 lamp. Was pretty shocked to see the brightness and the color temp is close to the HPL. They LED demo had a EDLT lens tube and did seem brighter than a standard and the coloring was not white, more yellow like a traditional lamp.
I am interested in these for my lobby lighting with 30 S4 50deg down lights as my main lighting. Would save me a lot of labor in changing out the lamps 30' off the floor when they are on 18-20 hours a day sometimes. Already have dimming setup and all the AC circuits in place, so this would be a direct replacement.
Did just read about only 2 per D20 when in AC mode, which I would be and I have 3-4 on a circuit now. That might through a wrench in my "easy" replacement argument.


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## jstroming (Jan 14, 2016)

The LED retrofit looks a lot less bright than the incandescent fixture in the pictures provided.


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## petercav17 (Jan 15, 2016)

A little off-topic I suppose, but what do you guys think about the new high efficiency incandescent that was just developed by MIT? I'd love to see a tungsten HPL with the power usage and life of an LED.

EDIT: If I had scrolled down more on the front page, I'd have seen the appropriate thread for this.. Sorry!


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## techieman33 (Jan 15, 2016)

petercav17 said:


> A little off-topic I suppose, but what do you guys think about the new high efficiency incandescent that was just developed by MIT? I'd love to see a tungsten HPL with the power usage and life of an LED.



Sounds cool, but I think it'll be a long time if ever before we see anything come from this. There are so many things that get developed at universities and never make it to the mainstream. The way LEDs have taken off the last couple of years it would be a very big financial risk for someone to actually develop it into a real product and bring it to market.


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## GreyWyvern (Jan 15, 2016)

Let's not derail this thread again, please!
MIT develops high efficiency incandescent


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## gafftaper (Jan 15, 2016)

The first video is just fun the second answers a lot of our product questions. (Nicely done @Jim Uphoff )





Thetechmanmac said:


> Is there any way to get a demo unit?


 Call your local dealer and let them know you want to see one. I'm sure demo units will be all over the place doing side by side shoot outs very soon.

@STEVETERRY Thanks for that replacement cap I was bugging you about 4 or 5 years ago! It looks great so far. Only problem is I'm all 750 Watt fixtures in this theater now... hint hint... sorry. I know we are never happy out here.


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## MNicolai (Jan 15, 2016)

Just you wait gaff. In a year or so they'll have a S4WRD2 that'll be brighter enough that everyone who bought into the first one will have buyer's remorse and wish they had waited.

I jest, of course, but this is our future with LED's. No more same-fixture-for-fifteen-years-except-for-that-one-change kind of product development cycle.


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## Amiers (Jan 16, 2016)

MNicolai said:


> Just you wait gaff. In a year or so they'll have a S4WRD2 that'll be brighter enough that everyone who bought into the first one will have buyer's remorse and wish they had waited.
> 
> I jest, of course, but this is our future with LED's. No more same-fixture-for-fifteen-years-except-for-that-one-change kind of product development cycle.



would just imagine they hold out and double the length of the array and sink it deeper into the cap to keep the "lamp" placement the same as where it sits now. If that makes sense.


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## MikeJ (Jan 16, 2016)

Hmm. The price is good, but the product seems a little underwhelming. Interesting that it was compared to a long life lamp rather than a standard one. Aren't the LL dimmer than a standard HPL? Not saying that it invalidates anything, I just want to see a more thorough comparison.


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## Scenemaster60 (Jan 16, 2016)

It is my understanding from others and also my personal observation that the 575 watt, 115 volt LL lamp (rated for 3050 K color temp) is by far the most popular lamp used in the Source 4. 

The cut sheet output of the HPL 575/115x is 12,360 lumens while the the "standard" HPL 575/115 is 16,520 lumens with a color temp of 3250K.

In all of my travels, the only places that I encounter that use the standard lamp as opposed to the long-life are large professional theaters and some of the larger collegiate programs. 

I think that some of this also had to do with the fact that the long-life 575 HPL lamp in the Source 4 performs similarly to an Altman 360Q or Strand Lekolite that is lamped with a 750 watt long-life EHG, which I always considered to be a performance standard that was in place from the mid-70s until the Source 4 caught on in the early 90s.


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## MikeJ (Jan 16, 2016)

Fair enough.


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## Pie4Weebl (Jan 16, 2016)

This is kinda the holy grail in a big way. Someone 'ought to dig up a thread from about 5-6 years ago where people said LED could never replace the Source 4!


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## NateJanota (Jan 16, 2016)

I'll tell you what I (and my parent company Universal) desperately want: an IP65 LED S4WRD. You want to talk about a bulk purchase, man, I'll find any reason I can to spec out LED replacements for our HPLs... less maintenance, better life... it's almost too good to be true. Except the IP20. This is Florida. Even the indoor fixtures suffer here.

So ETC : Make it IP65 and nail yourself a spec for an entire park!!


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## ScottT (Jan 17, 2016)

NateJanota said:


> I'll tell you what I (and my parent company Universal) desperately want: an IP65 LED S4WRD. You want to talk about a bulk purchase, man, I'll find any reason I can to spec out LED replacements for our HPLs... less maintenance, better life... it's almost too good to be true. Except the IP20. This is Florida. Even the indoor fixtures suffer here.
> 
> So ETC : Make it IP65 and nail yourself a spec for an entire park!!



While I don't work for ETC, from discussions I've had I can say it's something that's being worked on. It's all about heat dissipation in an effective manner.


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## NateJanota (Jan 17, 2016)

ScottT said:


> While I don't work for ETC, from discussions I've had I can say it's something that's being worked on. It's all about heat dissipation in an effective manner.



Let me get a brown paper bag to breathe into... *hyperventilates* Yeah, that excites me. I can hear my maintenance people planning a party as we speak.


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## jstroming (Jan 17, 2016)

I bought one from one of the online retailers a few days ago, no idea when it will actually ship though.


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## DELO72 (Jan 18, 2016)

Scenemaster60 said:


> It is my understanding from others and also my personal observation that the 575 watt, 115 volt LL lamp (rated for 3050 K color temp) is by far the most popular lamp used in the Source 4.



Actually, they are about even. It changes from year to year as to which ones are more popular, but the swing is only about 3-4% difference each time, and some years the Long Life versions are the slightly higher movers, and some years it's back to the High output, short life ones that are in higher demand. Personally, I've never understood why anyone would choose a long life lamp. Here's why- You can always dim a short life, high output lamp down and make it last longer, and turn it into a short-life lamp (in terms of life and light output). You can't however (unless you are Spinal Tap and have an 11 on your 1-10 power settings) run a long life lamp at greater than 100% intensity, making it perform like a short-life lamp. So with the high output standard lamp, you get more options, and you basically get two lamps for the price of one. Run it at 95% on the board and it's now a long life lamp. Since designing is all about wanting the most options available to you, I'm very surprised we sell as many long-life lamps as we do.

To answer the earlier question about "Why would ETC design it to match the long life HPL and not the short life one that is brighter"-- think of it this way: The main benefit to LED is primarily in the lifetime (maintenance/replacement) and energy savings. The people who are seeking that are the ones that are already using the Long Life versions of the lamp for those reasons. Giving them even further energy and maintenance savings just makes sense as you are giving them more of what they want. For those using the high output lamps, it's because to them the most important thing is punch (sheer output), and the brighter, higher CCT that those lamps give them. There is probably a higher output, higher CCT one in the works for those other folks.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Jan 18, 2016)

DELO72 said:


> You can't however (unless you are Spinal Tap and have an 11 on your 1-10 power settings) run a long life lamp at greater than 100% intensity, making it perform like a short-life lamp.



I wonder about all those installs I did in 80's and 90's with transformers tapped up to 132 or so to accommodate for voltage drop, mostly with CD80s, and I'm sure many retrofitted with Sensor. Think anyone configured these for a 120 or 115 max at the socket? Guessing if the long life was getting 120-125 at the socket, it might indeed put out and last as long as the short-life lamps. 

I also wondered if the balance of long and short sales wasn't biased with television studios and professional theatre using the majority of the short life while schools and not for profits and such used the majority of the long life. We tend to spec long life lamps for the schools we do. I understand you're logic but do you think the band director who has been given the keys will? (Yes - I know I could set a max level but that seems unnecessarily Machiavellian.) We're I full time in charge of an designing for a theatre I'd go to short life 750s automatically (unless it was a small space with short throws - than short life 575's probably.)


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## DELO72 (Jan 18, 2016)

BillConnerASTC said:


> I wonder about all those installs I did in 80's and 90's with transformers tapped up to 132 or so to accommodate for voltage drop, mostly with CD80s, and I'm sure many retrofitted with Sensor. Think anyone configured these for a 120 or 115 max at the socket? Guessing if the long life was getting 120-125 at the socket, it might indeed put out and last as long as the short-life lamps.




I stand corrected! I did not think of anyone purposely tapping the power coming in with reverse transformers to drive HIGHER than what comes in from the building power to pro-actively account for voltage drop.


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## SteveB (Jan 18, 2016)

DELO72 said:


> I stand corrected! I did not think of anyone purposely tapping the power coming in with reverse transformers to drive HIGHER than what comes in from the building power to pro-actively account for voltage drop.



I used to do this with Altman Q1000 follow spots. I isolated the lamp off the fan circuit, then ran the lamp on an autotransformer that went as high as 135 volts. Using an FEL lamp yielded a nice white image that cut thru the regular incandescent wash. The lamp went maybe 50 hours.


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## techieman33 (Jan 18, 2016)

I'm on the other side of things and only getting ~109v out of most of my CD80 circuits. So any short life lamp automatically becomes a long life lamp even if I run it at full. Looking at ETCs datasheet I don't even have enough voltage to run a source4ward. I wonder how much of a problem that will be for other venues.


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## DavidNorth (Jan 18, 2016)

BillConnerASTC said:


> I wonder about all those installs I did in 80's and 90's with transformers tapped up to 132 or so to accommodate for voltage drop, mostly with CD80s, and I'm sure many retrofitted with Sensor. Think anyone configured these for a 120 or 115 max at the socket? Guessing if the long life was getting 120-125 at the socket, it might indeed put out and last as long as the short-life lamps.



Well, Sensor dimmers have always regulated at about 120V at the output of the dimmer. In fact, the design of the system was that the rack would regulate at 120V, there would be about 5V drop in the load wiring, and a 115V lamp would get max voltage. That's why the lamps are available in 115V as well as 120V.

If you need higher voltage at the outlet, to deal with longer circuit runs, then as long as more voltage is available at the rack, the rack can be tuned up a bit to allow that through.

David


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## tjrobb (Jan 18, 2016)

Then there's my old job, where A phase was 103V, with B and C around 120V. And I couldn't convince them it needed looked at.


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## RickR (Jan 18, 2016)

I have done half the Machiavellian thing. Set the architectural presets to 90-95% but let the console go to 100%. Works best for house and work lights. Most of the hours are in long lift mode, but it doesn't limit a show.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Jan 18, 2016)

DavidNorth said:


> Well, Sensor dimmers have always regulated at about 120V at the output of the dimmer. In fact, the design of the system was that the rack would regulate at 120V, there would be about 5V drop in the load wiring, and a 115V lamp would get max voltage. That's why the lamps are available in 115V as well as 120V.
> 
> If you need higher voltage at the outlet, to deal with longer circuit runs, then as long as more voltage is available at the rack, the rack can be tuned up a bit to allow that through.
> 
> David


 
Correct me but I thought Sensor could be configured to output whatever you told it to, circuit by circuit. I thought CD 80 - at least in 80's and on - could also regulate. But either, as I recall, dropped the voltage 3 to 5% across the scrs, so if you only had 120 in, no way you'd have 120 out or at the lamp after 100'+ of #10s or larger. (Recall Woltrap with very long foh had #4s or #6s on 20 amp circuits.)

In any case I attempted to get 120 at the socket with 1500 watts on the circuit - because even to 1k lekos was not unheard of on one circuit - and that meant tapping up the feed.

Assumed this is why S4s were always perceived as brighter than they measured at first, both bluer and at same voltage as the 120 volt lamp it was being compared to.


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## MikeJ (Jan 18, 2016)

Well it makes sense that the new LED would be intended to be used where you would use long life lamps.
Tag- @DELO72 
BUT...Think about the math here, If sales are about even between standard, and LL lamps, then the number of people using them is far from equal.
Standard(54622)= 300hr
Long Life(54807)= 2000hr

So all other things being equal and all customers using lamps the same amount of time,
for every 100 customers using LL, you would only have 15 customers using the standard lamp, just using a lot more of them.

The reality is probably not that skewed. For example in rental inventory for rock and roll or corporate, where High output/short life makes sense, you might only use a fixture 2-3 days a week, and only a few hours for an event those days. In a theater, you might see more than 40hr a week on a lamp, and use LL lamps. In the end it might even out, but really it comes down to not how many lamps sold, but how many end customers are buying them.

Back to the LED.
For $600 retail. Nobody is touching that price. Good retrofit for a lot of existing fixtures, especially architectural installs.

For comparison, the Ovation 190, matches the output of the brighter Short life lamp, so it a good bit brighter, but you do have to buy a whole new fixture that is more expensive, but probably similar, in cost to ETC if you have no fixtures to retrofit. 

****Ooh, One question @STEVETERRY , Is there any significant UV output from this LED? For Museums we always need UV filtered out(usually just use gel anyway), but for entertainment UV can be fun.


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## DavidNorth (Jan 18, 2016)

BillConnerASTC said:


> Correct me but I thought Sensor could be configured to output whatever you told it to, circuit by circuit. I thought CD 80 - at least in 80's and on - could also regulate. But either, as I recall, dropped the voltage 3 to 5% across the scrs, so if you only had 120 in, no way you'd have 120 out or at the lamp after 100'+ of #10s or larger. (Recall Woltrap with very long foh had #4s or #6s on 20 amp circuits.)
> 
> In any case I attempted to get 120 at the socket with 1500 watts on the circuit - because even to 1k lekos was not unheard of on one circuit - and that meant tapping up the feed.
> 
> Assumed this is why S4s were always perceived as brighter than they measured at first, both bluer and at same voltage as the 120 volt lamp it was being compared to.



You are correct. Perhaps I misunderstand the post. If a rack was originally fed with 132V, for example, putting a Sensor rack in would give about 120V at the rack and depending on load and circuit length/size, be about 115V at the plug. It would only be higher than 115V if the circuit length was short and load light.

The 120V at the rack does assume greater than 120V feeding the rack, as posited. There is a voltage drop across the SSR and across the choke. The higher the load on the dimmer, the greater the drop through the choke - 3% in a fully loaded D20.

I guarantee you people do not trim the circuits, even though each dimmer has that capacity. A few high performance or high spec jobs do, here and there. Mostly this is critical in TV studios for color temp matching.

Not sure about brighter looking, but yes, high voltage could do that in addition to the blue look.

David


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## AlexDonkle (Jan 18, 2016)

DavidNorth said:


> You are correct. Perhaps I misunderstand the post. If a rack was originally fed with 132V, for example, putting a Sensor rack in would give about 120V at the rack and depending on load and circuit length/size, be about 115V at the plug. It would only be higher than 115V if the circuit length was short and load light.



Just to clarify, is the 120V output from Sensor racks an automatic adjustment (so the rack corrects the output voltage if the incoming voltage fluctuates, someone changes the transformer tap years after install, etc.), or is the 120V output of the rack adjustment manually done during system commissioning?


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## gafftaper (Jan 19, 2016)

My sales guy tells me that the price of $599 is fixed by ETC and there will be no discounts below it. I'm guessing that means when the price goes up to $699, dealers will be allowed to give discounts as they see fit. For now, $599 is a true discounted price and everyone get's the deal. That's kind of cool ETC! 


Thetechmanmac said:


> Is there any way to get a demo unit?


My sales guy also says that ETC currently only has one demo unit which is touring the country. So call you local dealer(s) and let them know you want to see it if it comes through town. Or you can wait a few months for them to get more demo units out into circulation.


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## DavidNorth (Jan 19, 2016)

AlexDonkle said:


> Just to clarify, is the 120V output from Sensor racks an automatic adjustment (so the rack corrects the output voltage if the incoming voltage fluctuates, someone changes the transformer tap years after install, etc.), or is the 120V output of the rack adjustment manually done during system commissioning?



Correct. It is automatic and starts at 120V, but that 120V set point can be edited on a per dimmer basis. In addition, this regulation happens at every place along the dimmer curve so that an increase in feed voltage does not affect light output. A dip in feed voltage can be also regulated, if the dimmer is currently at a level below the dip, but if the dimmer is set above the dip, then a dip will be seen at the light.

David


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## BillConnerFASTC (Jan 19, 2016)

DavidNorth said:


> Correct. It is automatic and starts at 120V, but that 120V set point can be edited on a per dimmer basis. In addition, this regulation happens at every place along the dimmer curve so that an increase in feed voltage does not affect light output. A dip in feed voltage can be also regulated, if the dimmer is currently at a level below the dip, but if the dimmer is set above the dip, then a dip will be seen at the light.
> 
> David


I apologize but it was an interesting question and I'm not sure I understood your answer. Is the regulation active, as in if the feed fluctuates does the output stay constant? And does it change based on load? Someone plugs in 4 - 575s and it compensates?


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## robartsd (Jan 19, 2016)

My interpretation of @DavidNorth is that it is actively adjusting for supply side fluxuations as long as there is voltage available to do so. The increased load on a particular circuit would have little impact on the supply voltage at the dimmer. The rack probably adjusts for internal losses due to the load (if possible), but I highly doubt that it is programed to account for the increased voltage drop in the circuit between dimmer and load.


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## DavidNorth (Jan 19, 2016)

BillConnerASTC said:


> I apologize but it was an interesting question and I'm not sure I understood your answer. Is the regulation active, as in if the feed fluctuates does the output stay constant? And does it change based on load? Someone plugs in 4 - 575s and it compensates?




robartsd said:


> My interpretation of @DavidNorth is that it is actively adjusting for supply side fluxuations as long as there is voltage available to do so. The increased load on a particular circuit would have little impact on the supply voltage at the dimmer. The rack probably adjusts for internal losses due to the load (if possible), but I highly doubt that it is programed to account for the increased voltage drop in the circuit between dimmer and load.



Correct. The rack regulates each dimmer individually [output stays constant] based on feed voltage fluctuations only and as long as enough voltage is present to make said changes. Changes in the amount of load on a dimmer are not compensated for dynamically. 

However, in CEM3, you can select how much load will be on a specific dimmer since load does affect curve to the slightest degree. I think I may be close to opening a can of worms not intended for this thread, although I am more than willing to continue if requested.

David


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## BillConnerFASTC (Jan 19, 2016)

DavidNorth said:


> Correct. The rack regulates each dimmer individually [output stays constant] based on feed voltage fluctuations only and as long as enough voltage is present to make said changes. Changes in the amount of load on a dimmer are not compensated for dynamically.
> 
> However, in CEM3, you can select how much load will be on a specific dimmer since load does affect curve to the slightest degree. I think I may be close to opening a can of worms not intended for this thread, although I am more than willing to continue if requested.
> 
> David


Correct me if I'm wrong, but say there's a foh circuit with a 750 plug in. I talked up the transformer so you've got lots of volts. Purring along with 120 volts at the dimmer output. I twofer another 750 onto the circuit. Doesn't that meter at the dimmer show a voltage drop?

Let's leave AF out of this entirely. Too much.


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## DavidNorth (Jan 20, 2016)

BillConnerASTC said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but say there's a foh circuit with a 750 plug in. I talked up the transformer so you've got lots of volts. Purring along with 120 volts at the dimmer output. I twofer another 750 onto the circuit. Doesn't that meter at the dimmer show a voltage drop?
> 
> Let's leave AF out of this entirely. Too much.



Yes, adding a second 750W fixture into the circuit will indeed show a voltage drop as the rack does not compensate for connected load. Now, to be honest, the voltage does not change significantly, but it does change. The factors involved here are additional drop across the choke and additional drop across the load circuit wiring. So, the longer the wire run, the greater the voltage drop.

David


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## Scenemaster60 (Jan 20, 2016)

Perhaps I missed this from earlier in the thread, but do any of the ETC folks know if there is talk of a 4WRD cap being produced that will fit on the Source 4 PAR and ParNel?


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## BobHealey (Jan 20, 2016)

Scenemaster60 said:


> Perhaps I missed this from earlier in the thread, but do any of the ETC folks know if there is talk of a 4WRD cap being produced that will fit on the Source 4 PAR and ParNel?



On that tangent, I'd be interested to hear about a junior option.


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## AsherSB (Jan 20, 2016)

BobHealey said:


> On that tangent, I'd be interested to hear about a junior option.


No plans I that I've heard of, but a junior LED variant would be amazing.


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## sk8rsdad (Jan 20, 2016)

There are a few challenges to overcome to get this on a jr. 

the size of the necessary heatsink (surface area is a big part of passive thermal cooling)
the lack of a separate lamp cap (he entire body would have to be replaced, which makes it a new purchase instead of a field upgrade)
the cost/margin (the LED is 3x the cost of the fixture)


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## BobHealey (Jan 20, 2016)

sk8rsdad said:


> There are a few challenges to overcome to get this on a jr.
> 
> the size of the necessary heatsink (surface area is a big part of passive thermal cooling)
> the lack of a separate lamp cap (he entire body would have to be replaced, which makes it a new purchase instead of a field upgrade)
> the cost/margin (the LED is 3x the cost of the fixture)



Lack of a separate lamp cap? What do you mean by that? The Jrs I've got all have removable lamp caps.


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## sk8rsdad (Jan 20, 2016)

You're right. I had a brain fart.


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## STEVETERRY (Jan 20, 2016)

DELO72 said:


> Actually, they are about even. It changes from year to year as to which ones are more popular, but the swing is only about 3-4% difference each time, and some years the Long Life versions are the slightly higher movers, and some years it's back to the High output, short life ones that are in higher demand. Personally, I've never understood why anyone would choose a long life lamp. <snip>



Spoken like a true career lamp manufacturer! 

Actually, if you figure that the 300 hour HPL needs to be replaced on average 6.6 times more frequently than the 2000 hour HPL and the annual aggregate purchase from a big lamp manufacturer is only +/- 3-4% between the types, our conclusion must be that the *overwhelming* majority of sockets in the field are burning 2000 hour lamps.

Cheers

ST


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## gafftaper (Jan 20, 2016)

Scenemaster60 said:


> Perhaps I missed this from earlier in the thread, but do any of the ETC folks know if there is talk of a 4WRD cap being produced that will fit on the Source 4 PAR and ParNel?




BobHealey said:


> On that tangent, I'd be interested to hear about a junior option.



At first glance, they already have an HPL replacement engine so it seems easy to just tweak the way the base attaches and throw it on a Jr, PAR or ParNel. But when you think about it, the path of how the light gets from the source to be out on stage is completely different in each fixture. Just the difference in diameter of the ellipsoidal reflector from a full size S4 and a Jr. could be enough to require massive amounts of redesign work. Figuring out how to adapt it to a PAR without the ellipsoidal reflector and the simple lens, could be vastly more complicated. 

On the other hand, ETC is in the business of making money. If these sell well, and they think they can make money off of a Jr, PAR, and/or ParNel version it will happen.


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## AsherSB (Jan 20, 2016)

I think a LED junior would be best with LEDs built in, Maybe a ColorSource Jr with an ABS body and output comparable to a 300 watt conventional?


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## ScottT (Jan 20, 2016)

gafftaper said:


> On the other hand, ETC is in the business of making money. If these sell well, and they think they can make money off of a Jr, PAR, and/or ParNel version it will happen.



From my understanding the current problem is heat dissipation and space. Compare the size of a S4 ERS cap to that of a S4 PAR.


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## techieman33 (Jan 20, 2016)

ScottT said:


> From my understanding the current problem is heat dissipation and space. Compare the size of a S4 ERS cap to that of a S4 PAR.



They would have to build a bigger cap, and you would need a longer yolk to go with it. 

I can see having an LED junior as a nice upgrade. I don't know that the LED par makes as much sense though. Assuming you keep the $599-$699 price point it doesn't make financial sense. At that point your already in the price range of the colorsource par or any of the other dozens of LED "par" fixtures. And your have the choice of color mixing or one of the various mixes of white light.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Jan 21, 2016)

The installed base would seem a likely factor. How many Jrs are there that would be upgraded - remember they didn't have the hundred or so more to buy a full S4 - versus S4. Pars might justify that but putting a $600 lamp on a $200 fixture is a tough sell.


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## RickR (Jan 21, 2016)

BillConnerASTC said:


> Pars might justify that but putting a $600 lamp on a $200 fixture is a tough sell.



Especially when you can get almost as much light, plus color from a $700 ColorSource Par! And $600 is just an intro price.


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## Thetechmanmac (Jan 21, 2016)

I feel as if a venue wants to go LED with S4WRD, they would want to put in color source pars as they are probably roughly going to be the same price after 4WRD goes up later. Not to mention being able to sell old pars to make a little bit of cash. 

PS- It's pretty crazy this thread is up to 110 responses... I like it!


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## BillConnerFASTC (Jan 21, 2016)

RickR said:


> Especially when you can get almost as much light, plus color from a $700 ColorSource Par! And $600 is just an intro price.


Well, I've used S4Pars for a lot more house lights than ever for production lighting, and the existing mains dimming is especially enticing for these. And for watt reduction, hard to imagine a better place to start than house lights. And since an S4 par plus a 4WRD is less expensive than most acceptable LED houselights, I can't help but wonder.


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## MNicolai (Jan 21, 2016)

Another place I see S4WRD (or something like it) and PAR's is recessed concert shell lighting, architectural lighting, and other applications where they don't need color-mixing, don't want heat, they don't want "that LED array look" you get from Desires, Selador, and ColorSource in situations where the front end of the fixture is readily visible.


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## RickR (Jan 22, 2016)

I just double checked the CS total lumens, 2794. Half a S4 ParEA MFL 5536 (115x) and less if you want a warm white. I guess I haven't done enough with them to have that firmly in my head.


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## techieman33 (Jan 22, 2016)

RickR said:


> I just double checked the CS total lumens, 2794. Half a S4 ParEA MFL 5536 (115x) and less if you want a warm white. I guess I haven't done enough with them to have that firmly in my head.



It all depends on your needs. If you want lots of whites and pastels then a tungsten lamp will be superior, but if your going to use lots of saturated colors then the LED will probably at least match if not beat a s4 par. A lot of people would probably use a standard fresnel or s4 par for a white or pastel and then an LED right next to it for the saturated colors.


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## DELO72 (Jan 25, 2016)

STEVETERRY said:


> Spoken like a true career lamp manufacturer!
> 
> Actually, if you figure that the 300 hour HPL needs to be replaced on average 6.6 times more frequently than the 2000 hour HPL and the annual aggregate purchase from a big lamp manufacturer is only +/- 3-4% between the types, our conclusion must be that the *overwhelming* majority of sockets in the field are burning 2000 hour lamps.
> 
> ...



In this instance I was speaking as a lighting designer and Master Elec. of over 100 shows, not as the Mfn rep. I would never choose a Long Life lamp UNLESS it was for a venue that was running them at full all the time (Casinos/amusement parks), and maintenance costs was the absolute key factor. Otherwise, you are just limiting yourself and settling for 3000K instead of 3200k on the top end. Does it make sense for a casino running them 24/7 or a venue where they are hard to reach and require 4 people and a genie lift to swap out? Absolutely. But from a designer standpoint, I always prefer more options. And, once you start dimming them throughout their use/life in various cues and shows, the lifetime for each is all over the map.


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## BobHealey (Jan 25, 2016)

Because I was just at a dealer/rental shop that had a pile "recent" (2003) swatchbooks of this out, I wonder how Roscolene works with this? I did grab a book, there are some interesting looking colors in there. I know what happens when you combine Roscolene with a 360Q. Makes some nice abstract art


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## SteveB (Jan 25, 2016)

Not to mention that "burnt gel" smell, that 40 years later I can still recall.


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## Bryce_J (Jan 28, 2016)

Yes but I believe the source4 led series 2 (which is the equivalent to the chauvet ovation ed) is more $$. I dont think its fair to compare a full led fixture to a insturt for a traditional fixture. Of course the insert will be cheaper than a fixture designed for LED light. I went to a workshop from etc about their New lime LED fixtures and was very impressed how close they got to natural light, however I think the Ovation is just as good and cheaper than the series 2. However I think that I would go with the 4ward to do a retrofit, but if i was to be doing a compleat new system I would go with the Ovation.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Jan 28, 2016)

Its interesting that the Robert Juliat LED units seem to be in demand in some segments and are just white. I'm not sure I'd want to choose - or have a choice made for me - and wonder if in a new system, some white and some color LED aren't OK. It seems that the white of the 4WRD is brighter and better white light (by which I mean is more like quartz, perversely) than what an ovation or series 2 produces. Just saying is it necessary to have just one? Just a bonus the barrels are interchangeable.


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## JohnD (Jan 28, 2016)

SteveB said:


> Not to mention that "burnt gel" smell, that 40 years later I can still recall.


Of course, the real "geezer check" is to ask if in your newbie days you were ever sent to wash the gels?

Now to get back to the 4wrd, I'm wondering if you could use something like it to make an LED beam projector, just need a fixture with a parabolic reflector with a hole in it for the light emitter part and a small spherical reflector/bortz dot in the front.


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## MikeJ (Jan 28, 2016)

I THOUGHT I had tested the Ovation against a 300hr lamp, but I found that someone has mixed up a bunch of 2000hr LL lamps into my lights, so that could be wrong, I'll have to do it again sometime.

I heard a report that the 4wrd was BRIGHTER than an ovation. 

FWIW, You could buy a 4wrd and a used S4 for less than a full Ovation unit.

Any reports of how they run on other brand dimmers including Triacs?


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## Bryce_J (Jan 29, 2016)

Pie4Weebl said:


> This is kinda the holy grail in a big way. Someone 'ought to dig up a thread from about 5-6 years ago where people said LED could never replace the Source 4!



You are exactly right! This new life be of lime LEDs has changed LEDs place in lighting dramatically. The fact that LEDs being used as generic fixtures could change everything. Ten years from now a pice of r-05 could be an antique! I'm excited to see where these products go.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jstroming (Feb 4, 2016)

I just received my S4 4WRD today. I ordered one to try it out. I took it out of the box and turned it on. Not too crazy about the RJ45 to DMX cables that are needed (sucks for touring shows). Lighter and not as big I was expecting. I'll get to play with it and compare next week.


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## jstroming (Feb 4, 2016)

Also, really good on ETCs part, they only announced the product like 2-3 weeks ago and they already have units shipping! Maybe they can teach Blackmagic a lesson....


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## gafftaper (Feb 4, 2016)

I had a demo of it today. At full it's a perfect match for the HPL 575 long life lamp. It's very hard to tell the difference. Dim it a little and you go oh crap, no amber drift. Dim it a lot and you are quickly reminded of how much you love the amber warm goodness of incandescent lights. That said, it dims beautifully and smoothly when on DMX control. It's a wonderful flat field. Then we switched to dimmer control instead of dmx and things got ugly. It was VERY steppy as you dimmed it down. Turn it on at a moderately fast pace and it pops on instead of fades on. Turn it from 0-7% and it wait 2+ seconds as it slowly turns on. There apparently is a capacitor in there that has to charge up for it to kick on or something. The sales guy said yesterday he had a lot of time and they were able to tweak the dimming curve and set the board so off is actually 3% (keeping a little juice in the capacitor) and it wasn't steppy at all and the slow response on was fixed as well. We unfortunately didn't have time to see if we could get it to play well with my system. 

So, on one hand I was very impressed with the quality and quantity of light at full. Dimming via dmx was perfectly smooth. On the other hand there is some work to be done when using dimmed power. And I was reminded how lovely the ability to glow the stage in amber goodness at 30% is. I have worked with this particular sales guy for years and trust him when he says that he got it dialed in and working perfectly. However he also admitted that it may not be possible to adjust the curve on every system to make it dim correctly. So for those with older boards and dimmers... particularly not ETC, you may not be able to dim it the way you want. 

For some of us this is a no brainer purchase at a great price. For others it may be a dimmer curve nightmare that can't be fixed. So as with any product, call your dealer and get a demo to see if it'll work for you. As for me, I'm interested but more interested to see where it goes in future variations.


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## MikeJ (Feb 5, 2016)

How do you set the address? I can't see a display or buttons in any of the photos. Also can it run at 208/240v?

It's interesting for installs, but obviously not meant for anything else with RJ45 connectors. I toured once with stage bars that were RJ45; did you know that the pins on a male 5 pin dmx will slide right in to an ethercon connector? I didn't, but stagehands across North America figured it out time and time again.


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## DavidNorth (Feb 5, 2016)

MikeJ said:


> How do you set the address? I can't see a display or buttons in any of the photos. Also can it run at 208/240v?



Address and function modes can be set using the two buttons and screen mounted next to the data connectors. This version only runs 120V but a new version that can do 240V is going to be out soon.

David


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## ChrisGeno (Feb 24, 2016)

Has anyone had a chance to see these on camera? I got an iPhone slo-mo video at 240fps which showed a flicker, but I'm wondering if anyone has seen any issues with pro/pro-sumer cameras. We're looking to upgrade our profile units, but we bring in a lot of outside video teams so I'm hesitant to just throw a bunch of these up in the air without having seen them on camera. Is the full Source 4 LED miles beyond this? Thanks!


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## TuckerD (Feb 24, 2016)

ETC Just published a video which compares the S4WRD and a regular S4. That might help you out.


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## SteveB (Feb 24, 2016)

jstroming said:


> I Not too crazy about the RJ45 to DMX cables that are needed (sucks for touring shows). .



RJ45 is absolutely the wrong connector for this fixture and it's baffling that they went to this. 

I have 3 to 5 pin XLR adapters on my Studio spots and had to tie-wrap them to the fixture handle to prevent wandering.

I mean come on ETC, every other fixture on the truss/pipe that moves or is LED is using 5 pin XLR and you all think RJ45 is a good idea ?


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## RickR (Feb 24, 2016)

I've kept quiet on that issue hoping to see a good reason. Some fixtures are shipping with RJ45s for ethernet connections. I can see that XLRs take a bit more space. But none of that really adds up in in my book.

The standard(s) is clear that RJ45s are for protected locations. This is the kind of logic that got us 3pin DMX.


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## sk8rsdad (Feb 24, 2016)

Just speculating but I think the target market for the 4WRD is retrofits, architectural installs and as a direct competitor to the Altman Phoenix and others in that space, so some significant percentage of the market won't be using the DMX dimming at all. I'm pretty sure ETC would like us to consider the Colorsource and LED II instead. Speculating a little further, if the future of control is sACN then an RJ45 connector could be the right answer a decade or so from now.


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## techieman33 (Feb 24, 2016)

sk8rsdad said:


> Just speculating but I think the target market for the 4WRD is retrofits, architectural installs and as a direct competitor to the Altman Phoenix and others in that space, so some significant percentage of the market won't be using the DMX dimming at all. I'm pretty sure ETC would like us to consider the Colorsource and LED II instead. Speculating a little further, if the future of control is sACN then an RJ45 connector could be the right answer a decade or so from now.



Ethercon may be an answer, RJ45 by itself is to fragile to stand up to the kinds of environments stage lights get used in.


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## sk8rsdad (Feb 24, 2016)

techieman33 said:


> Ethercon may be an answer, RJ45 by itself is to fragile to stand up to the kinds of environments stage lights get used in.



Certainly the rental market, touring shows, and roadhouses needs a robust connector. I don't think the 4WRD is aimed at that market. There are many locations where the lights don't move around much. RJ45 is cheap to replace, easy to fabricate, and the receptacle is seldom the bit that fails.


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## MikeJ (Feb 24, 2016)

MikeJ said:


> I THOUGHT I had tested the Ovation against a 300hr lamp, but I found that someone has mixed up a bunch of 2000hr LL lamps into my lights, so that could be wrong, I'll have to do it again sometime.
> 
> I heard a report that the 4wrd was BRIGHTER than an ovation.
> 
> ...



I double checked. The Ovation WW version, is equivalent to a long life, I cannot find the published CRI right now, but I believe it was higher than 90.
The 910FC color mixing version(competition to the color source spot), while less output than the WW also has a 90+ CRI, Both models have a retail of $13XX, with lens.


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## Pie4Weebl (Feb 24, 2016)

sk8rsdad said:


> Just speculating but I think the target market for the 4WRD is retrofits, architectural installs and as a direct competitor to the Altman Phoenix and others in that space, so some significant percentage of the market won't be using the DMX dimming at all. I'm pretty sure ETC would like us to consider the Colorsource and LED II instead. Speculating a little further, if the future of control is sACN then an RJ45 connector could be the right answer a decade or so from now.


No, because the lights will still just take DMX over that connector, not sACN.


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## sk8rsdad (Feb 24, 2016)

Pie4Weebl said:


> No, because the lights will still just take DMX over that connector, not sACN.



Probably, but it depends on what sort of transceiver circuitry they are using internally, or what the next gen retrofit cap looks like, or any number of things we don't know without access to the product roadmaps.


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## robartsd (Feb 25, 2016)

IMHO, the only reasonable reason to provide an RJ45 connector for DMX a fixture is if it can also accept network control through the same physical port. I do not know of any fixtures ever that have done this.


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## rsmentele (Feb 25, 2016)

There are a few reasons for the RJ45 connectors, I will let someone 'in the know' at ETC confirm or deny this, but the biggest issue with using a DMX connector is the extra space it would require. One of the requirements when building the unit was that it must be able to pass through the yoke without interference. Also, this unit is seen as a retrofit item, so in most cases they expect the item to be installed and cables connected and left for years.


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## CashewsInMyDimmers (Feb 25, 2016)

Also RJ45 connectors are very cheap if you wanted to retrofit your rep plot but didn't want to buy a whole bunch of new cables / connectors. 

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B008XP94BA/?tag=controlbooth-20

I think it would cost roughly half as much to build cables out of Cat 5 + RJ45 as it would to buy or build cables with XLR Barrel connectors and Cat 5 (or if you really wanted to spend the money you could buy nice pretty cable). Plus if the end breaks you don't need a soldering iron to attach a new connector.


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