# One valedictorian's view on education.



## ruinexplorer (Aug 7, 2010)

New travelling the interwebs is this speech by Erica Goldson, a valedictorian at Coxsackie-Athens High School.

She definitely was inspired by John Taylor Gatto, as I have been as well (one reason I continue to home educate my kids). A few of the points she makes should resonate with us in our field. We get told how to do things, but you must understand why we do them. This (understanding) is what will keep you alive and give you the tools you need to truly become a successful technician and not just a box pusher.


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## zmb (Aug 7, 2010)

I had a social studies teacher in 8th grade that decided that the public school system (along with government) was failing us and homeschools his kids after left this year.


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## Footer (Aug 8, 2010)

I'm not going to touch the home school debate, but here it goes... I graduated from a public HS and a private university. I spent 1 year teaching in a performing arts magnet school in Georgia and was a certified teacher. 

Anymore, there is really no reason to teach dates/facts/whatever. We need to teach writing skills and research skills. We also need to teach math and what it takes to become a good citizen (consumers ed, civics, global studies). Facts are meaningless. I can find out everything I need to about Henry Cabot Lodge through a 10 second search on my phone. What we have to teach is how to dig through all the information we have to get the best/right answers. 

When I taught all of my tests with the exception of the final where all essay based. If you know your stuff, you can write an essay about it. Now, I only had 15 students in my class so I could grade 15 5 page essays in an hour or two. If I had 34 students over 4 hours in the day (thats 136 essays) there would be NO WAY I could do that. That is the sole reason why multiple choice tests and scantrons are so popular. The best classes I ever had in college (all taught by the same guy and the person that married MrsFooter and I) where all essay based tests. He gave us a list of 5 questions the class before the test, 2 of those 5 questions would be on the test, we had to answer one of them. I usually filled at least on blue book and possibly two on each of those tests. Our answers where usually a bunch of rambles and argumentative but thats what he wanted. He didn't grade on spelling or punctuation on those tests. The test was purely about arguing your point. They made you actually think. They were not about dates. They were about knowledge. 

My students could barely write in this way. I would ask for a 4 page paper on how you participated in the last production and I would get back 1/2 a page saying "The _____ show was fun. I did alot." They could not even analyse what they did the week before.

In Georgia we had state mandated graduation tests, state mandated/written tests that each core class had to give at the end of each term, and state written tests that were given each year. We had so many tests that each class spent at least two weeks teaching specifically for those tests. In Illinois where I went to public school we had one test that took two days junior year. Half of it was the ACT the other half was laughable. I know we had better schools because we did not have all these tests. However, in a struggling school system the tests make parents feel better. They make politicians feel better. It gives them a quantitative score that they can rate the schools on. In the no child left behind world that is what you need. Really, you can't blame the teachers or the local administration. 

I could write on this exact thing for days.... but I will leave that to later...


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## derekleffew (Aug 8, 2010)

Footer said:


> ... He didn't grade on spelling or punctuation on those tests. ...


I was right with you until here. Why not take points off for spelling or bad grammer [sic]?


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## Footer (Aug 8, 2010)

derekleffew said:


> I was right with you until here. Why not take points off for spelling or bad grammer [sic]?



He did take off points on any essay that we wrote outside of class. In the in class essays that we wrote we would each write 10-15 pages in 50 minutes. He did not want us to be concerned with going back and checking spelling and/or punctuation. The point of the in class essay was to argue our point in any way possible. If he had his way, we would have just sat down with him and argued for an hour (in fact, if you bombed the test, you could do that during office hours). He had us write as if we were talking. It was kind of a stream of conciseness thing. Now, if he could not read it or it was in some way intelligible you of course would get marked off, but he would not take off for an out of place comma.


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## seanandkate (Aug 9, 2010)

Right with you Footer. Critical thinking skills are key. Ontario has started the forced march down the road of mandatory testing, but thankfully only for certain things at certain grades. Some of the best exams I ever gave (I've been teaching English and Drama for 18 years), were oral. You can really find out what a student knows.


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## zmb (Aug 9, 2010)

Washington state seems to have many testing requirements going as far to have stuff in PE, Drama, and Music that are all done by the teacher within state requirements. In social studies, you write a paper that the teacher chooses the subject matter and the teacher grades it. Over the top? I think so and many other people are the same.

Bonus points: most of it has been phased in over the past year and the state's entered a budget crisis. I hope it gets cut versus cutting teachers. Election year too here.


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## len (Aug 9, 2010)

Footer said:


> We need to teach writing skills [[snip]]
> That is the sole reason why multiple choice tests and scantrons are so popular. The best classes I ever had in college (all taught by the same guy and the person that married MrsFooter and I) where all essay based tests.



And I bet they were essay-based, also. I'll refrain from mentioning the other errors I saw.


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## Footer (Aug 10, 2010)

len said:


> And I bet they were essay-based, also. I'll refrain from mentioning the other errors I saw.


 
I never said I was great at writing properly or spelling properly. In fact, I claim the complete opposite.


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## shiben (Aug 10, 2010)

Footer said:


> In Georgia we had state mandated graduation tests, state mandated/written tests that each core class had to give at the end of each term, and state written tests that were given each year. We had so many tests that each class spent at least two weeks teaching specifically for those tests. In Illinois where I went to public school we had one test that took two days junior year. Half of it was the ACT the other half was laughable. I know we had better schools because we did not have all these tests. However, in a struggling school system the tests make parents feel better. They make politicians feel better. It gives them a quantitative score that they can rate the schools on. In the no child left behind world that is what you need. Really, you can't blame the teachers or the local administration.


 

OOOGHHHHH!!!!!! I remember that test! It was a joke! (I grew up in the Chicago suburbs). This "test" is supposed to see if you have "real world" knowledge, and it tests on stuff that your average jr. higher could spit out... And then they test us on things like "history", just in case its somehow relevant to my life that some general during the crimean war did whatever... I will argue that history really ought to be taught, although in a different fashion. My favorite history course was one on modern world history that about 75% of class time that was supposed to be the teacher lecturing us was the class having unstructured debates over the situations, actually learned useful stuff there. I think one thing that everyone is leaving out here is language. Learning a 2nd (or even third) language would be something that most people would benefit from, and (members from Europe correct me if Im wrong) IIRC many European schools teach multiple languages at the primary level. Also, schools really need to get over themselves and the internet. Its here, and its not going away. Arguing that there is not some value in research done on the internet is foolish and is pretty much sure to keep kids from using it properly. I was back home helping my brother with a research project because they only taught rudementary skills at using the internet as a search tool for research in our HS, 4 years AFTER I was in the same class, arguing that wikipedia did have some value to the researcher, if not as a scholarly source, and they still only teach you how to use their 2 "special" databases which are worthless (apparently the teacher didnt like it when he showd up with articles from top scholarly journals in his paper, because they were "internet based", not off of paper. Seriously. Im sure that going to the Royal Society's archives would be nice, but the internet is fine for them...). God I love college classes so much more now. Actually, heres a thing to think about for everyone contemplating technical theatre as a degree program: While I would dearly love to have a class in rigging and a class in other specific technical diciplines, I have found in my experience already, both on profesional and academic levels, the most valuable class I took was intro to project management in the Engineering dicipline. The second? History and the Modern Middle East. I would reccomend taking at least a few liberal arts classes, and one in project management, usually with the Engineers or Construction Management departments. Its amazing how liberating it is to be able to plan a load in and know what can arrive late and still not set the project behind schedule, and the value of technical research, planning, etc. Skills everyone should have. And learn a new language. I wish I could fluently speak more than English.


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## zmb (Aug 10, 2010)

shiben said:


> OOOGHHHHH!!!!!! I remember that test! It was a joke!




Footer said:


> In Georgia we had state mandated graduation tests, state mandated/written tests that each core class had to give at the end of each term, and state written tests that were given each year. We had so many tests that each class spent at least two weeks teaching specifically for those tests. In Illinois where I went to public school we had one test that took two days junior year. Half of it was the ACT the other half was laughable. I know we had better schools because we did not have all these tests. However, in a struggling school system the tests make parents feel better. They make politicians feel better. It gives them a quantitative score that they can rate the schools on. In the no child left behind world that is what you need. Really, you can't blame the teachers or the local administration.



I have to agree with how broken state testing is in Washington. The WASL is the test done here in Washington that starts in 3rd grade and you are required to pass in 10th grade to graduate. It is currently on its way out thankfully with having a new state superintendent. The amount of time it takes is large, 2 allotted hours per day for 6 days with out a time limit. In order to make sure that we could pass in, science classes had "WASL Wednesdays" where we would spend time to answer "WASL-style" questions. A handout in English class was the WASL rubric for writing. Why is it that we have become so reliant on this exam which I think is the only state-required portion to graduate?

I haven't taken the replacement High School Profinceny Exam (HSPE) yet so I don't know what it will be like. Teachers and students were happy to see a new state superintendent that proclaimed he would replace the WASL. We'll see how that works out along with other stuff.

Interesting to discuss this here with high school students, college students, and college graduates.


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## derekleffew (Aug 10, 2010)

Standardized tests are not a new concept. In the 1960s, we took the Iowa Tests of Basic Skills every year (and I always wondered, "Why Iowa? We're in Ohio!"). Nor are they inherently evil. Anything that can prevent kidz who write "How R U ?" from graduating high school is A-OK by me.

Seems like every Spring we hear of the poor, unfortunate HS student(s) who might not graduate because they can't pass a test designed for the 9th grade level.
There's talk here in Nevada of revoking a student's Drivers License privileges (not rights) if he/she drops out of school or fails to maintain a passing grade average. How sad is it that that law will never pass, or even needs to be considered?


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## ruinexplorer (Aug 10, 2010)

Footer said:


> I'm not going to touch the home school debate, but here it goes... I graduated from a public HS and a private university. I spent 1 year teaching in a performing arts magnet school in Georgia and was a certified teacher.



I appreciate that you refrain on the home education debate. First off, the laws regarding home education vary greatly from state to state. Secondly, most people who hold a strong opinion have very little knowledge of the reality of this form of education which has changed rapidly over the years, even in the past decade that we have be been doing so. I, too, had a public education including an Associates Degree, a Bachelor's Degree (two courses shy of a second BA), plus post graduate work. Both of my parents were public educators as well as my grandparents (my grandfather at the college level). My wife had a private school education as well as earned her Bachelor's Degree. Certainly as there is a difference in those parents who educate their children at home, there is a difference in the quality of education students get from certified teachers (Nevada scores dead last on standardized testing in the US). And another thing that could touch off debate is whether or not Schools Kill Creativity (Sir Ken Robinson). 


> Anymore, there is really no reason to teach dates/facts/whatever. We need to teach writing skills and research skills. We also need to teach math and what it takes to become a good citizen (consumers ed, civics, global studies). Facts are meaningless. I can find out everything I need to about Henry Cabot Lodge through a 10 second search on my phone. What we have to teach is how to dig through all the information we have to get the best/right answers.



I agree that proper writing skills are essential including spelling, grammar, and punctuation with the ability to understand this and not depend on word processing programs to catch your mistakes. Research skills are absolutely critical including the ability to discern quality information from opinion (which is where difficulty stems in researching on the internet, including wikipedia). 
As far as good citizenship skills, I couldn't agree more. First of all, we need to focus more on modern history and less on ancient history. I remember not even getting to WWI when studying US History, but if it wasn't for my love of history, I probably wouldn't have known most of what was going on in the world and so my councelor pushed for me to take a Current Events (ususally reserved for seniors) class over the standard World History generally taught. I was probably a much more critical thinker, much to the chagrin of later teachers, than the majority of my class. A good understanding of our government should be essential for graduating so you can understand such things as the electoral college and not complain about the 2000 elections (unless it comes to the conflict of interest in Florida). Of course I also think that we need to be directing most people to the right kind of math, namely statistics. This is essential since so much of the decisions made by consumers as well as politicians are based off of probablility and not being able to tell if there is a "right" answer.


> I could write on this exact thing for days.... but I will leave that to later...



As could I (even of the diffences between standardized tests and bubble vs. essay exams). We could also discuss the merits of education at all. Benjamin Franklin had two years of school, period. One year of classroom education and one room of private tutoring. Jump forward, Bill Gates was a college dropout. From personal experience, my grandfather didn't graduate HS because of the Great Depression. He was forced to become a hobo as he couldn't find work and the rest of his family was moving west for opportunities. However, he went on to be one of the nation's leading chemists (in the 1970's oil crisis, he developed the technology to extract oil from oil shale) and then went on to teach college chemistry. However, he would not be afforded those same opportunities in this day and age where we are so concerned with standardized tests and diplomas.


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## zmb (Aug 11, 2010)

ruinexplorer said:


> And another thing that could touch off debate is whether or not Schools Kill Creativity (Sir Ken Robinson).


On if schools kill creativity, it was the first place I was introduced to working into theatre. I thinking this could be the case for other members here.


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## pmolsonmus (Aug 12, 2010)

I'll just ask the obvious. How are those fine arts programs at the home-based schools? I'm all for creative problem solving and critical thinking skills and all of things that smaller classes and home based opportunities can afford to offer. However, the majority of students who come into our high school with a home-based education are often extremely ill-equipped to manage the social, interpersonal and timed rigor of high school and then a college education. I'm not arguing that public or private schools are the alpha and omega of eduction, but Rip Van Winkle would feel as comfortable in a college course today as he would have 50/100 years ago. The ivory tower hasn't changed much and the current mode of high school (if done properly with quality educators, involved parents and funds) is the best way to educate the vast majority of the population and preparation for college. (Vast majority= large numbers of students) Best? - not necessarily, most?- yes. Standardized tests are a political not an educational tool and are actually counterproductive to most real education in any setting. I lose tens of hours of contact time every fall to standardized tests that are not only touted as real statistics (BS) but then used to drive policy and practices (even bigger BS)

Soap box is yours...

Phil
20 yrs public educator


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## ruinexplorer (Aug 12, 2010)

For the obvious, fine arts programs, I assume that you are suggesting things such as theater and music (group) programs, not painting/sculpture/photography or other "personal" programs. Both depend on your community. When I was in kindergarten, my father was teaching school in a mining town in Colorado. The graduating class had on average one student per year. This was public school. When I was in HS, I was in the largest school in the western half of the state, yet (as a member of the student state board of Thespians) when I visited other schools half the size of mine, located in Denver, they had performing arts budgets (my HS budget was $0, we had to raise all of our own funds) greater than the first college that I attended.

Now, for personal experience. We tried private school and public charter schools before we decided to educate our children ourselves. What was happening was that we did not have the same influence over the development of our children, either them being limited by the system or being put into situations that were unhelpful/detrimental to their development. I was actually against home education at first when my wife brought it to my attention as an alternative. We studied it for a few months before making the decision to pull our daughter out of school and let her detox. Often we are asked about social opportunities (even though every teacher I had in public school drilled it into us that we were not there to socialize). To that I answer, there are tons of opportunities if you are part of any community. If you live out in the boondocks, then you wouldn't have those opportunities anyhow. Again, when our kids were in private and charter schools, the opportunites for performing arts were no greater (and often inferior) to those offered in the community. In many states those budgets are being cut anyway. 

So, again, from my experience, when my daughter was interested in marching band, I taught her the basics (as I had been in band) and then she went to the public school to participate in the music program. She also took Chemistry at the same school and was top of her class. Then again, the teacher assigned to teach the class had never been taught how to teach chemistry (he was one of the athletic coaches) and had to rely on one of the other teacher's for lesson plans/tests and had to seek assistance for grading (this is better?). Her peers were upset that she threw off the "curve". For her other lab science required to go the college of her choice, we instead enrolled her in a community college, where again she excelled beyond the rest of the class (kids at a minimum two years ahead of her). I do not agree with your Ivory Tower model, but we are free to have different opinions.

I am not here to say that everyone should be educated at home. Far from it. The reason that I brought this article to the forum was to offer some points of thought to the community. First of all, this student could be seen as biting the hand which fed her. She excelled in a broken system and then had the bravery to stand up in front of her peers and say that they may be better off than her. It could have been possible for her to lose her scholarships for this type of speech (stranger things have happened). Also, I wanted the community to have the opportunity to view different viewpoints. We are often fed information from people we trust, but rarely do we think about what is being given. Instead, we are taught to store that information for future regurgitation, not as a tool for creating. 

Here's another example for you, another performing arts example besides that of the TED video that I previously shared; Keith Moon of The Who. Keith Moon was a self taught drummer. He is often idolized in the musical community for his ability to play many different combinations that would be nearly impossible to play if he had been taught traditionally. Many instructors feel that, while he was extremely talented and could play extremely well, that they could never in good conciousness teach his method. It is just "wrong". If you are interested in learning about this method, the information is available, but you will have to teach it to yourself, you won't find it in traditional education.

I am not stepping off the soapbox, because I don't feel that I have stepped onto it. I am not telling anyone how they should educate or be educated. I feel that I am in a group where ideas may be discussed.


Son of a teacher who left the system over 20 years ago because it was broken then.


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## pmolsonmus (Aug 17, 2010)

Ruin,

Thanks for the civil debate. This could turn into a ridiculous flame war on many internet forums (or in the current political forum for that matter)

Most public school teachers will indeed tell students that they are not there for socialization, but in most settings its just a way to get students to shut up. Schools, public, private, home-schooled... whatever, are essentially ways to indoctrinate the next generation. Social norms and policies are a huge factor even if it's not taught as a formal class. Socialization taught on a calendar that still allows for junior to help Pa with the crops in the field is the real history of public education in the US. The fact that the system can still work for many students in a modern society is actually pretty mind-blowing. You didn't like the format for your daughter and made a change. Completely understandable, we moved our entire family into a older house that needed much more work, because of the opportunities offered in the community I teach in. If it was established today from the ground up, is there any doubt that schools would look very different? But then again, what wouldn't? I wouldn't hold my breath for any political solution to education in our lifetimes. 

I also don't disagree with you on the rural school's fine arts programs, but great personalities and big ideas can make small programs at the high school and college level work - there are hundreds of examples. Many operating with little or no budget.
A statistic I heard a few years ago was that the city of Prague has a larger fine arts budget than the United States. Go figure. The beauty of the arts is that they can be done well with few funds if the process (not the product) is the goal. I know that may be heresy on a tech theatre forum.

Phil


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## ruinexplorer (Aug 17, 2010)

pmolsonmus said:


> Most public school teachers will indeed tell students that they are not there for socialization, but in most settings its just a way to get students to shut up.



 That's rich. I agree whole heartedly with this statement. After all, most public schools offer many opportunities for socialization. Since so many teachers have their hands tied by the administration, they cannot always turn that normal socialization into proper discussions. I highly recommend that you read the author, John Taylor Gatto, referenced by the valedictorian. He was a public school teacher who received many awards for his teaching. 


> Schools, public, private, home-schooled... whatever, are essentially ways to indoctrinate the next generation. Social norms and policies are a huge factor even if it's not taught as a formal class. <snip> The fact that the system can still work for many students in a modern society is actually pretty mind-blowing. <snip> If it was established today from the ground up, is there any doubt that schools would look very different? But then again, what wouldn't? I wouldn't hold my breath for any political solution to education in our lifetimes.



This might be what the plan with all the charter schools is - revamping the way schools are run. I know of some people who are very impressed with some of their charter schools. One thing that I was impressed with some of them that I have investigated is that the administration works with the teachers to get the curriculum instead of deciding for the teachers (and being sold by the publishers instead, which I got to sit in on those meetings as an AV tech). Still, one of the greatest advantages to me is the family bonding, especially since I don't work a 9-5 job. Some of my colleagues who have children in traditional school (public, charter, or private) don't have the opportunity to spend very much time with their kids at all. With the exception of the (antiquated) summer vacation, they see very little of their kids since we leave for work just as school gets out.


> I also don't disagree with you on the rural school's fine arts programs, but great personalities and big ideas can make small programs at the high school and college level work - there are hundreds of examples. Many operating with little or no budget.
> A statistic I heard a few years ago was that the city of Prague has a larger fine arts budget than the United States. Go figure. The beauty of the arts is that they can be done well with few funds if the process (not the product) is the goal. I know that may be heresy on a tech theatre forum.
> 
> Phil



Phil, I would not brand you a heretic for your appreciation of the beauty of the arts. Sometimes I think that it gets lost in the complexity of our technology (my tagline used to say something about that, a quote from Einstein). One of the reasons I wanted to be an archaeologist was my fascination with how humans create to make their place in this world. I think that we could do better looking back at how the Greeks and Romans set about building some of the wonderful machines in their dramatic productions; it was really quite amazing. This of course isn't to say that we should ignore the benefits of modern technology, which I know that you weren't implying. 

As for Prague, that's on my list of places to visit. In 1990, when one of my college professors was taking a group of students to Prague for one of their theater festivals, I was quite amazed at what they were accomplishing over there. I mean, I never imagined the Czech Republic to be such a cultural hotspot. It really opened my eyes to my ethnocentric viewpoint of who could be accomplished at performing arts. 

So, thank you for this discussion. I hope that we are not frightening off anyone else from commenting.


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## shiben (Aug 17, 2010)

ruinexplorer said:


> Phil, I would not brand you a heretic for your appreciation of the beauty of the arts. Sometimes I think that it gets lost in the complexity of our technology (my tagline used to say something about that, a quote from Einstein). One of the reasons I wanted to be an archaeologist was my fascination with how humans create to make their place in this world. I think that we could do better looking back at how the Greeks and Romans set about building some of the wonderful machines in their dramatic productions; it was really quite amazing. This of course isn't to say that we should ignore the benefits of modern technology, which I know that you weren't implying.


 
TheLightNetwork *might* brand you a heretic, but I doubt many here will. Doing things in ingenious and new ways is always well apreciated, and low budgets are perfectly acceptable.


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## DuckJordan (Aug 17, 2010)

I stayed out of this thread as long as I have a tendency to take things personal no matter what level they are at, Fortunately I have a girlfriend who is very big into communication skills between people.

In South Dakota at least the south eastern portion, I have seen kids from public school and private school (Christian private), Who have both excelled and utterly failed in life after high school. Someone noted that standardized tests are a political tool rather than an educational tool, Politicians propose its a way to find out where reform is needed when what they do with the information is exactly counter productive." Oh you students aren't above grade as far as the nations concerned, lets cut your budget." To me it is a really big problem with our political nation as to how our education should be run. Yes public education is a governmental service but it doesn't mean it should be controlled by politicians who have trouble themselves on the same tests they preach are "The ONLY way to show how our students are doing." 

My view from a public school standpoint, All public schooling, But with friends and family who took the private and home schooling routes, is that unless administration listens to the teachers and not who they buy their books from we wont get an education but rather a slight form of brainwashing. When I was in high school I never touched the WWII issue, we covered a little of WWI and Vietnam but World war 2 was never covered. This wasn't because the teacher didn't want to teach the subject its that in the allotted time for the class we couldn't cover it in any class. This was due mostly because of the standardize tests that the administration of the district said that all teachers must review for the standardized tests at least one week prior. 

One of the few classes I learned and retained any knowledge in was an early history of mankind class. Not only was there no end of the semester test but in class we had discussions with the rest of the students that was taught not only by a book, but internet research and also unique to this teacher, an over sea's communication with other secondary education kids in other countries (states actually we've ,in the united states, Mutilated the term) such as Kazakhstan and Ukraine. I can't stand history but if you involve people its no longer history but a discussion. 

While I see the Positives of home education those kinds of discussions are difficult to have in a family with just a few children. I'm not saying public or private education is the way to go but it does offer quite a few other positives that home education can provide, although same can be said with Home education can be much stronger in other aspects.

So I end my view with this, While public education needs work, it always will but until we step up and discuss these changes on a large public basis all it is, is speculation.


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## ruinexplorer (Aug 17, 2010)

The biggest misconception about home education is isolation. A few decades ago, there were relatively few home schools in the country without the support network. While I am still finding some of the support network here in Nevada where home education isn't as strong, in Arizona, there was a very large network. There are many support groups that are both faith based as well as secular where families are able to share resources. Some groups offer co-operative teaching while others are strictly social. I have an age gap with my children and while the oldest "graduated" and is now attending college, the others are still in elementary school. I am certain that by the time that they are in "high school", I will have again developed a network that will allow us to have similar discussion groups that you suggest (we did for our oldest, not just in one topic either). Also, since we have the internet, just like the students in public school, my children have the opportunity to discuss topics with kids from other countries (kind of like what happens on this forum).

Again, some home educators would chastise me because I am not an advocate for everyone educating their own and abolishing mandatory education. There are certainly people I know whom I wish would send their kids to school as opposed to educating them personally. However, I believe that it is the right (in the United States) for parents to choose the form of education that they feel is best suited for their children. Then again, I believe that we have a lot of different rights that I don't always agree with (yet another discussion) but I should not infringe upon them.

[MENTION=7655]DuckJordan[/MENTION], I hope you don't take this personally. We all have our opinions on these matters. What's wonderful is that we have this opportunity to discuss them, just like you did in class or people used to do in coffee houses. Trust me, I hated history class in school, but I continue to eat it up to this day. Even as a student, I found history absolutely intriguing, but I hated how it was forced to me (Ferris Bueller's teacher anyone?). 

Similar to a discussion about BFA versus BA, discussion in any setting will help your brain formulate stronger bonds (memory) than simply listening just as any active participation strengthens your abilities more than simply learning theory. As has been mentioned many times, this makes it difficult to quantify, thus the politicians flounder in assessing quality. Of course, you could go with the theory that compulsory schooling is mandated to eliminate critical thinking and enslaving the general public towards serving the corporations. I'm not saying that this is where I'm coming from, but this is a theory put forth by some educators.


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## DuckJordan (Aug 18, 2010)

Ruinexplorer, I did not take it personally, unfortunately its not very prevalent here in South Dakota for support networks to form between home educators, so that is where my understanding came from. although i did find the whole "down with the corporation" thing extremely funny, I actually laughed a little on the outside, it reminded me of how much we are becoming exactly what we were fighting just ten years ago. So I will take your word that there are ways for parents to home educate and still provide a social community for which to provide their children with education in social skills. I still have a few questions about home education but i will IM you for that as I feel it would easily take this subject and hijack to a completely different realm.


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