# Moving Light as Follow Spot



## jgrimes (Sep 3, 2014)

I have done some digging and most people are not recommending this AT ALL. Im starting to agree.

Use of a moving light as a follow spot. I have done this before with 1 light, RoadHog4, and used the pan/tilt encoders to follow a very excited preacher. This was very difficult.

Since then I have been looking into the idea of programming 2 lights to follow the DS edge via a Manual Crossfader with position cues. The problem I am having is getting clean linear movement without having to have lots of cues. 2 cues (1 DSL and 1DSR would be ideal) I have yet to make this clean enough to use in the real world.

Any other thoughts on moving lights as FollowSpots. And tracking packs are out of the question for now. We are not that big of a company.


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## wolfman005 (Sep 3, 2014)

Might be easier to use a joystick instead of encoders. I'm not sure how one would go about adding a joystick control to a hog but I'm sure if you got a USB joystick it would be doable. 

Someone should make a moving head follow spot telemetry unit. They do it for "robots" in Hollywood. Shouldn't be to hard to make a position detecting device spit out DMX values that the console could read via DMX in and patch those as the P/T channels of a mover.


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## sk8rsdad (Sep 3, 2014)

_So You Think You Can Dance Canada_ used MLs as followspots. However, they disconnected the Pan and Tilt motors and employed humans to aim the beam and took advantage of the colour mixing and other beam shaping fixtures to texture the dancers. I'm pretty sure you're looking to do away with the humans
though.

Perhaps if the pan, tilt and iris were incorporated into an independent controller rather than attempting to do it through the console it would be possible to make it work. I doubt that sticking a Hog in the signal path is going to offer any advantages.

You would need to build smarts into the device to handle the acceleration curve. It would also be prudent to limit the range of motion. In an FOH position a followspot isn't panning much, and tilting even less. The ML would need at least 16-bit resolution on pan and tilt to have a hope of hitting the target with subtle motion. If the ML has vector positioning it would help in managing the wobble. A wash fixture would be more forgiving than a spot.

To automate fully, something like a Kinect or similar motion controller might be made to work. Range and viewing angle are limited though so positioning the sensors becomes part of the challenge.


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## cbrandt (Sep 3, 2014)

On Hog, you can throw the pan and till to the mouse (and it should work with an external mouse/trackball). As long as you have a light touch, you can follow a guy that way. Basically, as a board op, following a guy and still running other cues is more than exhausting, it is almost impossible, much less if you have two spots.

To be successful in this in the past, I've given the presenter/actor a range of allowable motion on stage, where they could move freely, and that I had programmed into the board to be able to follow manually. Martin's M-Series consoles have a great feature called q-blender that lets you put multiple cues onto a single fader throw, and you can follow someone that way, but still a huge pain to do so.

What can help with the jerkiness is to set your movers internally to use a slower movement rate, which will smooth things out a bit, in general. It would limit how fast they would go on the top end, though.


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## wolfman005 (Sep 3, 2014)

Maybe this?


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## microstar (Sep 3, 2014)

jgrimes said:


> I have done some digging and most people are not recommending this AT ALL. Im starting to agree.
> 
> Use of a moving light as a follow spot. I have done this before with 1 light, RoadHog4, and used the pan/tilt encoders to follow a very excited preacher. This was very difficult.
> 
> ...



Meteor, http://www.meteor-global.com/products-theatricalLighting.php, makes the Elipscan moving mirror attachment for ellipsodals. They used to make a joystick controller for it but I do not see it on their website.
Anyway, the mirror unit does have some kind of speed sensitive control that smooths out the movement s bit. I have seen it used as a followspot and it works reasonably well. One's interpretation of that certainly can vary. It is much more noisy than a Rosco I-cue for sure and I would never use it in a quiet environment.


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## JChenault (Sep 3, 2014)

I have successfully used a mover for very simple moves, where both actors were precise in hitting their spike, and we're consistent in their move ( and I could make the spot larger than normal ). But this was simply writing cues to get from point A to point B. 

I've often thought about making a beach ball sized mouse wheel and controlling pan/tilt, but somehow never have as yet.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Sep 4, 2014)

Shades of Izenour's remote controlled follow spots. Big joy sticks. This was 1950s afteall and they worked - kinda - at least for a few minutes - its been reported. Water cooled as well.


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## StNic54 (Sep 4, 2014)

The concept of using a mover as a manual followspot has been around for awhile. I think the concept of using a moving light as a remotely controlled followspot leaves too many openings for disaster. There is a human touch that is needed with the light's movement, and correcting oneself if the target shimmies left instead of shuffling right is very important. If not done properly, then you just have the old comic bit of the spotlight chasing the performer but not actually doing its job correctly. I saw a production of Caroline, and Change where they used movers to follow the actors, but the blocking was very, very specific and rehearsed. It's very difficult to pull off. There are expensive options that incorporate motion-sensor technology with moving light presets, but that's pricey. Especially if you can't afford a spot op.


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## coldnorth57 (Sep 4, 2014)

I have done it a few times with varying results actor never hitting thier mark  or not moving with the cue. there has been a few diferent system that have tryed to ude a computer to "SEE" the stage and run a command to drive the DMX to the movers......

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?244417-Spotlight-with-automatic-following

http://www.wybron.com/out-of-production-products.html

http://www.controlbooth.com/threads/self-tracking-followspots.7144/


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## Fountain Of Euph (Sep 7, 2014)

Could you put the pan and tilt on seperate submasters, and control ot that way. Like sub 1 @ 100%=16 degree pan and such

Sent from Taptalk for Android, this was.


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## MikeJ (Sep 7, 2014)

Can you Make a 2 cue stack on a hog and set the fader to be a manual cross fade? If the person is walking a straight line, like down an isle, than it is easy, cue 1 is where they begin at one end of the isle, set cue to at the other end of the isle. Move the fader to follow. This works fine on GrandMA, its pretty basic so I would hope that it can be don similarly on the HOG. You can do something similar using a temp fader and only one cue, but your starting point would be based on whatever position the light is currently in before moving that fader. Very useful for on the fly specials though, for solo and such that you don't know are coming.


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## Calc (Sep 8, 2014)

To all the people saying "Throw it on a cue," the problem comes in when your mover isn't centered on the path of the actor's movement. 
If you're putting the mover where a spot would normally go, the few feet don't make a whole lot of difference. That'd be quite the zoom lens for a mover, though.
If you're trying to shoot from closer, the distance begins to factor in. Hitting an actor further away needs a smaller iris and and slower motion. As they come closer to the fixture, it needs to speed up and iris out just to keep the same speed and appearance, all on a non-linear curve.
Not impossible, but not as simple to do properly as you make it sound.


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## JChenault (Sep 8, 2014)

The other "throw it in a cue" issue is that a strictly linear fade on pan/tilt usually does not give you her path you want on anything other than short moves. Ie if your actor is crossing UR to DL, and you simply fade the Pan tilt, your beam will not move in a straight line from UR to DL.


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## Hrvoje (Mar 25, 2015)

Well, I has been done.

For position detection I use video or web camera and not the sensors. It is much easier and it does not require any specific knowledge. 

I love working with visual tracking technology and on many occasion I have been asked to produce a small, reliable, simple and relatively cheap system.
Video Follow Spot is my suggestion.
www.vidfspot.com is the place where you can find software, feel free to download it and…

Tell me what you think.
There are some videos also, it is a Lego stage example. Just to show that the system can be setup in the office.

Best Regards,


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## What Rigger? (Mar 25, 2015)

I saw Slayer do a version of this about 5 years ago. No spot operators on the Strongs at Local Arena, but for guitar solos in each song, Jeff and Kerry had their areas of the stage lit with several movers. Granted, they pretty much just stayed within the giant, strobing, evil areas without any running around. When Megadeth played their set, it was back to humans on the traditional gear.


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## Hrvoje (Mar 25, 2015)

I agree,
I forgot to say that I was talking about small theatres and community theatres, schools… places where you have no options to use a human controlled follow spot, simply because it cannot be placed.

For large concerts, stadiums and arenas this will not work for more than one reason. Video camera is shaking for example.


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## JonathanHarpur (Mar 25, 2015)

There are too many scenarios which wouldn't work to make this practical without a large budget. I'm assuming, though, that a simple, straightforward, low(er)-cost approach is what is needed here, and that the mover is placed in a location somewhat similar to a traditional followspot - i.e. somewhere in your FOH.

It can be done, depending on your console, and on your operator. If you've got, say, an MA with a trackball, you can use it to follow a position pretty reliably with practice, as long as your operator isn't busy doing other things, or running the show off the programmer. For this method to work you need to have the mover, and (probably) only the mover, selected. It still doesn't give you easy use of beam size or colour changes, unless you've got separate stacks for them. I've used this method successfully with a Rosco I-Cue on a few simple shows.

If your console supports multiple cue stacks on its faders, another technique which might work is to set up a pair of faders - one for pan, one for tilt, both with the extremes set in a pair of looped, crossfading cues - so fading pan would run the fixture from, say, far stage right to far stage left, and similarly the tilt fader could run it from downstage to upstage. In theory, if the fixture is set correctly, both faders at about 50% should land you somewhere near center center. Pan at zero and Tilt at full should land you USR, and crossing both faders should bring you diagonally down to DSL. If your fixture has an iris or zoom capability you could incorporate that into the tilt fader as well, if you needed the beam size to be comparable... It's not as good as the real McCoy, and it will take some getting used to, but can get you by in a pinch. It's similar to using encoder wheels, but you don't have to worry about the speed you place things - and there's the advantage that you know where a location is based roughly on the fader position - pan placed at 25% or 75% in the above examples should put you somewhere on the stage's quarter marks, for instance.


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## Catwalker (Mar 26, 2015)

Maybe a slightly off-topic question, but is there a device that can automatically follow the performer? The person being followed wears some sort of belt pack, and the fixture has a tracking device on it. The device has either a laser, or GPS system to track the speaker/singer's movement. The mover will follow instructions from the receiver, and thus follow the performer. 

I know this thread is old, and this pondering may be off-topic, but I believe it may still be relevant.


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## rbalewski (Mar 26, 2015)

Catwalker said:


> The person being followed wears some sort of belt pack, and the fixture has a tracking device on it



I kind of remember seeing something like that advertised many, many, many years ago in Lighting Dimensions magazine, I believe. I'm also rather curious if it's still around.


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## Les (Mar 26, 2015)

Catwalker said:


> Maybe a slightly off-topic question, but is there a device that can automatically follow the performer? The person being followed wears some sort of belt pack, and the fixture has a tracking device on it. The device has either a laser, or GPS system to track the speaker/singer's movement. The mover will follow instructions from the receiver, and thus follow the performer.
> 
> I know this thread is old, and this pondering may be off-topic, but I believe it may still be relevant.



Yes, Wybron either has or had such a system called the AutoPilot. Pretty sure the functionality vs cost is the reason it's not more popular.

http://www.premier-lighting.com/sales/autopilot.html


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## len (Mar 26, 2015)

jgrimes said:


> I have done some digging and most people are not recommending this AT ALL. Im starting to agree.
> 
> Use of a moving light as a follow spot. I have done this before with 1 light, RoadHog4, and used the pan/tilt encoders to follow a very excited preacher. This was very difficult.
> 
> ...



If I were looking at a pan across the stage to follow spot, it might be easier to set up a bunch of static cues that semi-overlap. Depending on a number of factors, maybe 4 - 8 of them. Play around with the fade times, then just call the cues as needed, and they spots will move to the new spot. Tracking is really tricky, especially if your perspective is different than where the fixtures are.


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## derekleffew (Mar 26, 2015)

Les said:


> Yes, Wybron either has or had such a system called the AutoPilot. Pretty sure the functionality vs cost is the reason it's not more popular.


Besides Wybron being out of business...AutoPilot2 started at $35,000 for the simplest system.


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## Les (Mar 26, 2015)

derekleffew said:


> Besides Wybron being out of business...AutoPilot2 started at $35,000 for the simplest system.



I thought that was the case. The link I posted confused me in sounding as if the system was still in production.


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## len (Mar 26, 2015)

It's too late to edit my post, but what I meant was using moving lights as a follow spot and moving them from a third location is especially challenging.

And one other thought, I believe some musician/band used movers with the pan/tilt motors disabled as follow spots. They had operators for them, IIRC.


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## DuckJordan (Mar 26, 2015)

len said:


> It's too late to edit my post, but what I meant was using moving lights as a follow spot and moving them from a third location is especially challenging.
> 
> And one other thought, I believe some musician/band used movers with the pan/tilt motors disabled as follow spots. They had operators for them, IIRC.


Yup its a country group iirc one mac viper for spots one Mac aura for wash

Sent from my XT1060 using Tapatalk


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## Erik456 (Mar 27, 2015)

This is clearly a thought that manufacturers have realized is still popular. Utilize the features of a moving light (color, template, iris, ect..) while leaving the movement up to the operator. Might not be the posters ideal setup since it appears he is trying to eliminate operators, but still an interesting idea. 

PRG has recently released a little device for their Bad Boy series of lights that gives the operator tons of control: http://www.prg.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/ds_pp_BadBoy-FollowSpot_draft1.pdf

VL has a spot handle for their new VL3015 Spot series, as well as a software disable of P/T (yay for no more disconnecting P/T cable harness!)
http://www.vari-lite.com/clientuploads/Followspot_Handle_Graphic.jpg


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## rbalewski (Mar 27, 2015)

Erik456 said:


> This is clearly a thought that manufacturers have realized is still popular. Utilize the features of a moving light (color, template, iris, ect..) while leaving the movement up to the operator



Is there anything more "remote" for this kind of stuff? A joystick controller that can inject its own pan/tilt data into the DMX stream for some given light, for example?


len said:


> Tracking is really tricky, especially if your perspective is different than where the fixtures are.



Definitely. Ages ago, I had a couple PanCan mirrors (http://www.pslx.co.uk/Pancan.htm except mine had joystick controllers) that I used as remote control spots. They were a real challenge, especially when I was trying to run the lightboard at the same time!


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## Hrvoje (Mar 27, 2015)

Yes there are automated systems where actor wears the transmitter:
http://www.cast-soft.com/blacktrax

You have one transmitter and several receivers. The systems have their advantages and disadvantages.
I wanted to make senseless system, where actor does not have to wear sensors. And that system is manually operated. 
System does not use sensors and follow spot operator is not “mounted” on the truss, but he/she is sitting behind the stage.


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## Hrvoje (Mar 27, 2015)

Since the moving light is pointing where mouse pointer is pointing, I have ordered
http://www.apem.com/USB-Desktop-Control-Products-v9-p-66.html#3
To see how it feels to control moving light with industrial joystick.
It takes 3 weeks to deliver ???


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## BillConnerFASTC (Mar 27, 2015)

Hrvoje said:


> Since the moving light is pointing where mouse pointer is pointing, I have ordered
> http://www.apem.com/USB-Desktop-Control-Products-v9-p-66.html#3
> To see how it feels to control moving light with industrial joystick.
> It takes 3 weeks to deliver ???


Do report. Maybe even post a video. I'm interested in how it works. Thanks!


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## Hrvoje (Apr 27, 2015)

Finally, knock on the door!
Well, from my experience with joystick I would not recommend controlling a moving light with joystick. There are number of reasons for that.
First of all, most joysticks have a center spring. You release it, and it goes to center. So it makes no sense if you are following a singer and singer stops to hold the joystick in that position. So you need to program the driver for joystick to handle this case. But if you are following a dancer, he is moving to the left and to the right. Then you need to go over the center for right and over the center for the left. That is not a joy.
Second, joystick without spring is very hard to find.
I had written some programs for joystick that I have, and then, it displayed a steps during movement and to eliminate that steps, additional programming is required…. That will control only this joystick…. And…..
To summer all up,
Now I understand why computer games (especially point and shut games) are not using joysticks.
What we have found is that small size mouse and Apple Magic Trackpad are best tool for to follow the performer with moving light.
Best regards,
Hrvoje


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## robartsd (Apr 27, 2015)

Hrvoje said:


> Finally, knock on the door!
> Well, from my experience with joystick I would not recommend controlling a moving light with joystick. There are number of reasons for that.
> First of all, most joysticks have a center spring. You release it, and it goes to center. So it makes no sense if you are following a singer and singer stops to hold the joystick in that position. So you need to program the driver for joystick to handle this case. But if you are following a dancer, he is moving to the left and to the right. Then you need to go over the center for right and over the center for the left. That is not a joy.
> Second, joystick without spring is very hard to find.
> ...


Many joysticks can have the springs removed; however, they might not hold their position well when released (perhaps slowly falling towards the extreeme instead of quickly centering).


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## len (Apr 28, 2015)

One could also consider a track pad or track ball. I think it would depend on the person, the rest of the desk, the location of the person in relation to the fixtiure(s), etc. My brother-in-law swears by those little eraser looking joysticks that some Dell notebooks (like the one I'm using now) had.


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## Hrvoje (May 4, 2015)

Trackpad works like a dream, trackball is more difficult and requires some time to get the grip on it.
Personally I use Apple Magic TrackPad and a mouse simultaneously. I have win7 laptop with usb mouse and Bluetooth connection to trackpad. During the show I use mouse or a pad.

Remove the spring on joystick…....?


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## Max Warasila (May 6, 2015)

Really, a joystick is mean to operate either in relative position from center or in relative acceleration from zero. I am far more fond of the latter of this solution.


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## Judge (May 7, 2015)

I remember that as well - at the time it seemed very advanced. I think it got used on a Rush tour and the unions were not at all happy about it and only agreed to the devices being deployed as long as one of the union FS ops stood next to it.
So these days you would think a new a better version would have turned up - how hard can it be?

edit - found it - it was the Wybron Autopilot
Out of production now but I have found a new system that does a similar thing called Zactrac - Youtube clip about it here

Also there is an old thread about this on CB where the difficulties are talked about


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## Hrvoje (May 11, 2015)

As I can see there are two main approaches to this topic:
One is Automated Follow spot, and other one is remotely controlled moving light used as followspot.

In my opinion, remotely controlled moving light is a way to go. I think that has more advantages than automated followspot simply because it is a system controlled by the human hand and it is a simple system. Systems in witch operator and computer are working together are currently being developed in different applications. For example; http://cahnrs.wsu.edu/news-release/2013/08/28/human-and-robot-team-up-for-high-tech-fruit-harvest/ . Here we have operator pointing what apple will be picked. I think that humans must do what they do b est and machinery is just a tool for them. Why clime on a stars all day to pick apples when you can point to computer where is apple and let him do the work. Why hang in FOH when you can sit behind the stage and do the same work? 
This is a text describing jet another approach http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/hickmanbrady/tdt_2015winter/#/30 that is also starting to get complicated…
Anyway, only the time will show what system will users chose to use.


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## Jay Ashworth (May 11, 2015)

Max nails it above: you wouldn't want to set a joystick up to run a moving light as a follow spot by coupling the joystick position directly to the pan and tilt all of the fixture. 

You would want to leave the springs on and have the joystick control the velocity at which the neutral pan and tilt position are changed, if you understand what I mean.

First derivative rather than direct.


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## Max Warasila (May 11, 2015)

Jay Ashworth said:


> Max nails it above: you wouldn't want to set a joystick up to run a moving light as a follow spot by coupling the joystick position directly to the pan and tilt all of the fixture.
> 
> You would want to leave the springs on and have the joystick control the velocity at which the neutral pan and tilt position are changed, if you understand what I mean.
> 
> First derivative rather than direct.



Nice. Throw calculus in and confuse everybody.


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## robartsd (May 12, 2015)

Max Warasila said:


> Nice. Throw calculus in and confuse everybody.


Not as confusing as setting the joystick to control the second derivitave would be - but that might make for an interesting hidden camera scenario.


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## Max Warasila (May 12, 2015)

robartsd said:


> Not as confusing as setting the joystick to control the second derivitave would be - but that might make for an interesting hidden camera scenario.


I probably would set it to the first derivative. Velocity control would make more sense.


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## Jay Ashworth (May 12, 2015)

Max Warasila said:


> I probably would set it to the first derivative. Velocity control would make more sense.



Lessee:

Direct control means the joystick az and el control the fixture az and el: springs would recenter the fixture to its static aim.

First derivative means the joystick as and el control the *position* of the static aimpoint; springs make the fixture stop moving *where it's aimed* when you let go of the joystick, and the amount of deflection determines how fast it changes the aimpoint in the direction you're pushing (the approach we suggest).

So what is second derivative? Acceleration? (I really didn't take calculus; I've been spitballing from context...)


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## robartsd (May 12, 2015)

Jay Ashworth said:


> So what is second derivative? Acceleration? (I really didn't take calculus; I've been spitballing from context...)


Yes, the second derivative of position with respect to time is acceleration.

@Max Warasila I thought "hidden camera scenario" was enough clue that my comment was meant as a joke.


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## Max Warasila (May 13, 2015)

robartsd said:


> Yes, the second derivative of position with respect to time is acceleration.
> 
> @Max Warasila I thought "hidden camera scenario" was enough clue that my comment was meant as a joke.


 Oops...

@Jay Ashworth I didn't take calculus either.... but I had to learn it for AP Physics C, so I got most of the important bits.


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## Technoj (May 22, 2015)

How do you line up on someone with a moving light? Gaff tape a camera to it?


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## Jay Ashworth (May 22, 2015)

Oh. For a preset shot. Yeah; excellent point. That is what you'd have to do. Or an IR laser pointer and goggles.


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## Hrvoje (May 22, 2015)

In this system Web camera is mounted beside the moving light at some angle towards the stage.

I have try to mount a camera on a moving light and it is very hard to track the performer that way. Technically system works but to track a dancer on stage... No.
I was my first idea to mount a camera on moving light, it avoids field of view problem.

It is mandatory to have a fixed placed camera.
Anyway, i have been asked to implement a "start from dark" function. Performer position will be as a preset or memory or...Ex. Button 1 preset position 1.

Regards,

H


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## VCTMike (Jun 9, 2015)

Hrvoje said:


> In this system Web camera is mounted beside the moving light at some angle towards the stage.
> 
> I have try to mount a camera on a moving light and it is very hard to track the performer that way. Technically system works but to track a dancer on stage... No.
> I was my first idea to mount a camera on moving light, it avoids field of view problem.
> ...



Easy peasy....Mount a camera looking through a spot light sighting tool...


http://www.productionadvantageonline.com/Products/telrad-followspot-sight.aspx


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## Rico LD (Aug 4, 2015)

Hey guys, I'm a senior in high school this year and have used this forum for a lot of great ideas and have had an idea myself for a while but need some feedback.

I know that most everywhere followspots are normally manually operated, however at my school we don't have any crew members to spare to have someone operate it. So I was thinking of using some of our moving lights as followspots but aren't sure how practical it would be. In the end I would love to be able to program a few of our fixtures to to follow the path of the actor.... I realize that this could go wrong in many ways (the actor isn't in the right spot, moves faster than the fixture is programmed to move, etc)

Really I want to know what your take is and if any of you have done this before or know the most affective way I can accomplish this.


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## sk8rsdad (Aug 4, 2015)

This thread covers most of the issues.
http://www.controlbooth.com/threads/moving-light-as-follow-spot.36180

In a high school, the most effective way to solve this is to spend a little time recruiting and training operators rather than investing a lot of time and money in an automated solution. YMMV


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## Amiers (Aug 4, 2015)

Well I will say it isn't easy. It takes at lot practicing on your part as well as the performer. Then even with all the rehearsals and practicing your still only going to hit them 4 outta 5 times if they are good.


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## DuckJordan (Aug 4, 2015)

I've seen it done professionally exactly once, and they had a dedicated operator and console for it

Sent from my XT1060 using Tapatalk


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## techieman33 (Aug 4, 2015)

DuckJordan said:


> I've seen it done professionally exactly once, and they had a dedicated operator and console for it
> 
> Sent from my XT1060 using Tapatalk



And at that point your better off just having a spot op run the thing manually with the main board op controlling intensity, size, color, etc.


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## Les (Aug 5, 2015)

Rico LD said:


> In the end I would love to be able to program a few of our fixtures to to follow the path of the actor.... I realize that this could go wrong in many ways (the actor isn't in the right spot, moves faster than the fixture is programmed to move, etc)
> 
> Really I want to know what your take is and if any of you have done this before or know the most affective way I can accomplish this.



I hate to sound like such a purist, but I think that would look very robotic. Nothing like having the human touch.

And lets not forget about how hard it can be for actors to hit even a stationary special. Heck, it's even in the Bible!

*Job 24:13*
"There are those who rebel against the light, who do not know its ways or stay in its paths."

I also recommend stepping up recruiting efforts. From what little I remember of high school, we would have a lot of kids audition or want to be on crew for a musical (the most common use for followspots) and sometimes we would struggle to find jobs for everyone. Most people, when asked nicely and properly trained, would be perfectly happy and do well at operating a spot. Takes a while to get the feel but surely isn't rocket science - I have seen complete newbies get it down in no time.


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## Hrvoje (Aug 5, 2015)

It is all about the play, if play request for a followspot operator and there is a enough space for it. Use a followspot operator. Otherwise some other solution needs to be implemented.
I agree with the Les, human touch will never be replaced with automated system. But in situations where followspot must be replaced with a moving light alternative solution must be provided.
Street festivals, small theatres, community theatres, dancing studios.... They all do not have a place dedicated for a follow spot. 
Therefore, moving light remotely controlled as followspot must be alternative solution to standalone followspot.
Followspot operator sitting by the light desk and controlling the moving light is alternative solution that combines human touch and remote control moving lights on the topic of moving lights as followspots. 

System that uses web camera and pc for remote control is much more usefull compared to systems that uses sensors, dedicated hardware, setup time in hours.....
Well, anyway that is what I think.




Best regards,
H


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## BillConnerFASTC (Aug 5, 2015)

I'm not sure I'd be so confident to say human touch will never be replaced by automation in all things. What's being done today in rigging really exceeds what a whole bunch of humans can do. I suspect it is only time and money preventing the automated follow spot from existing today. If every home and office needed one, it would be developed by now.


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## Hrvoje (Aug 5, 2015)

The question here is about the approach to the problem of using moving lights as followspots.
Automated systems needs sensors, sensors have their range and accuracy. Therefore skilled technician or a engineer is needed for a system setup. Sensor net is needed to cover the stage. If those sensors are wireless you have to take care of the that too. In this type of the system performer has to wear transmitter. Small, but still a transmitter with a battery. So in the case of Strictly come dancing for example 8 couples means 16 transmitters. 
So, you need at least two people taking care of the transmitters and a single setup technician, in total 3 persons before and during the show. 
Other systems, like video analytics is just simply to slow for 30ms refresh rate. Video analytics is now on HD, tomorrow will also be slow, why, because it will have to deal with 4k.
On top of everything there is a setup time problem and cost of the system.
Those are the reasons in my opinion why automated followspot is not in use today, and will not be used tomorrow. 
I think that this are the reason why we don't have automated systems on stage, or automated fruit harvesting machines and etc.

Regards,

H


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## BillConnerFASTC (Aug 5, 2015)

Today or tomorrow - OK. Never? Well, I remember when the Dick Tracy two way wrist video communicator would never happen and 64k was all you'd ever need. I do believe automated follow spots could be successful today but doubt anyone would pay for it.


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## Amiers (Aug 5, 2015)

Wyborn has a great automated solution, I hope that someday someone picks it up and makes it more available price wise for the everyday user. 

And I agree with Bill, never say never about something. It is just a matter of time before someone comes along and builds something.

My thoughts are they will use something pre existing ( gps tracking, laser tracker, IR tracking, matrix mapping) making a user friendly program. After that it's just a profile of the mover and a DMX out ( which already exists as well)

The pieces are there someone just hasn't told us they are putting it together or not done it yet. My money is on its still in RnD and nobody is talking about it yet.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Aug 5, 2015)

I always thought a really smart system with video where it would intuitively learn to recognize performers, at which point following with automated or by just areas, being able to add rules, tell it the fair skin blond is to be lit with pink and lavender and the male lead is lit in steel tint and n/c, with similar for other angles. and lets make it smart enough so it recognizes voice commands, and differentiates between the LD, ALD, ME, etc. Be able to paint the stage on the screen - adding light, color, or a practical. Some day we are going to get beyond the big desk with lots of buttons and sliders and displays. It will happen. Maybe not in my lifetime but it will happen. I started with auto transformers and mechanical interlocking, everything from mag amps and thyratron on multi scene analog logic preset boards, to what we have today. I still like the move fade of a piano board - and rope and sand bags - but look forward to what is coming and hope I get to see a few more major steps.

I really appreciate the insight and opinions of those posters who have to deal with what they have now and the show that must go on tomorrow. But don't not dream once in a while. I've only too recently learned teh value of stopping and looking and trying to see what would not just do and make it good enough, but what will be a major step above the last time.


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## Hrvoje (Aug 6, 2015)

That is the X that marks the spot. You mark the X spot on this topic.
Who would pay for automated followspot system, and why?
What kind of advantage do theatre get from fully automated followspot at the price of several BMW 5 series?  
So, in my opinion, human operated, remotely controlled moving light as followspot that is cost effective has more advantages. For example, In summer street festivals, moving light can be used as followspot using web camera and operator on pc for far more less then BMW 1 series.


As an engineer, I had a very long look at the video technology and it is a race against pixels, it will always be.
Look at the mobiles, now we are waiting for 4k on our mobiles, stream from internet, of course. Processing power for that will not leave much for anything else to be processed. On a PC it is bit better but still, if video analysis is the name of the game, specialized hw is in order, that comes with the price.

Regards,

H


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## BillConnerFASTC (Aug 6, 2015)

I never denied the price is high today, not affordable perhaps, but I have more computing power in my phone today by many orders of magnitude than any one could have afforded 50 years ago.

I refuse to be the person before the Wrights and Sikorskys who proclaimed that if man were meant to fly he'd have wings.

I'll add that in late 1990s I said I'd never design fully motorized rigging systems. Now have done 7 or 8 and predict new install manual counterweight systems will be few and far between by 2025 or 2030. I never believed they'd do what they do already.


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## Les (Aug 6, 2015)

The only thing that turns me off of automated followspots is the fact that it allows fewer people to be involved. To me, theatre is about hands-on participation. I guess the same could be said for lighting consoles vs resistance dimmers, but at least that made way for better execution of artistic vision. 

On the contrary, I don't mind automated rigging, but that's mostly because there are so many safety benefits (same could be said for resistance dimmers). Automated followspots seem to benefit hardly anyone. 

Guess I just don't see the real value in it, unless you're an accountant hoping to save money on labor.


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## DGotlieb (Aug 6, 2015)

Here is an alternate thought to make this work.

Instead of trying to remote control a moving head fixture, what if you used a powerful projector then had a live video feed of the stage and a touch screen. Where you touched a circle would appear that got projected following your fingers.

Or use facial tracking software, click on someones face and the projected spot automatically tracks them until you click it off. 

This would give companies that literally don't have space to accommodate spot ops a way to hang a projector and then give an ipad to a spot op and let them work from a remote location.


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## Amiers (Aug 6, 2015)

DGotlieb said:


> Here is an alternate thought to make this work.
> 
> Instead of trying to remote control a moving head fixture, what if you used a powerful projector then had a live video feed of the stage and a touch screen. Where you touched a circle would appear that got projected following your fingers.
> 
> ...



Kind of like the overlay software they have for sporting events. Not a bad idea.


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## Les (Aug 6, 2015)

Would the "projector black" not be an issue?

That is an interesting idea. Although it would probably cost over $1,000 just to rent a projector powerful enough which takes me back to the "which problem are we even solving" question.


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## Amiers (Aug 6, 2015)

Les said:


> Would the "projector black" not be an issue?
> 
> That is an interesting idea. Although it would probably cost over $1,000 just to rent a projector powerful enough which takes me back to the "which problem are we even solving" question.



Any DMX douser would solve that but yes a high end projector wouldn't be cost effective unless you already had one.


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## Les (Aug 6, 2015)

Amiers said:


> Any DMX douser would solve that but yes a high end projector wouldn't be cost effective unless you already had one.



I meant that if you are doing the white circle thing, the rest of the image would be projector black.


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## Amiers (Aug 6, 2015)

Les said:


> I meant that if you are doing the white circle thing, the rest of the image would be projector black.



Ah, well if it is covering a whole stage i don't think it would be noticeable. Then again this is all assumptions lol.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Aug 6, 2015)

DGotlieb said:


> Here is an alternate thought to make this work.
> 
> Instead of trying to remote control a moving head fixture, what if you used a powerful projector then had a live video feed of the stage and a touch screen. Where you touched a circle would appear that got projected following your fingers.
> 
> ...



Interesting idea. George Izenour proposed the video projector as a framing, colorable theatre light source in the 50s or 60s. Put enough around the stage that were powerful enough and could do evetything. Probably will work some day no that it's easier to manage heat. His lamps that included connections for liquid coollant had ...... issues.


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## bmcewing (Sep 2, 2015)

Robe's BMFL can be used as a follow spot, still need an operator however.....

Page 11 in manual.


http://www.robe.cz/fileadmin/robe/downloads/user_manuals/User_manual_Robin_BMFL_Spot.pdf


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## the1rmdman (Nov 1, 2015)

PRG Has a new product called the ground control that has a camera on of their moving lights and is controlled up to 2000 feet away by a spot light like controller. Very cool.

http://www.prg.com/~/media/files/us/prg products/groundcontrol_remote_followspot_system_datasheet-final-10-22-15.pdf?la=en

[Edit by Mod.] More discussion at http://www.controlbooth.com/threads/prg-ground-control-product-demo-video.38928/


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## Tech_Geek97 (Nov 10, 2015)

On a somewhat related note I found an old Martin Lighting Director manual.


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## Jon Majors (Mar 7, 2019)

My school has terrible followspots so I am thinking about renting 2 Mac Auras and utilizing those as followspots in our upcoming musical. Would you or would you not try this? The idea of color mixing with the Auras seems beneficial since we can add front light to any specific area without it really seeming like a followspot. My concern is actually in the cueing. Should I be concerned that the actors won't always follow the exact same path/timing if I'm using the Aura as a followspot? Obviously rehearsing it over and over will be helpful but I want to consider every con. 

Thanks for the input!


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## Les (Mar 7, 2019)

Jon Majors said:


> Should I be concerned that the actors won't always follow the exact same path/timing if I'm using the Aura as a followspot?



I would be. The only way I would use a mover as a followspot is simple, straight-line movements. Even then, the mover's natural path may be more of an arc depending on hanging position. I would also be afraid of it looking too robotic.


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## Amiers (Mar 7, 2019)

You are talking so so so much rehearsal time that you would have paid for a rental on a top of the line follow spot and an OP. 

Best thing to do is to make yourself some S4s on a stick and get yourself a follow spot op. The money that you would spend on the Macs can goto the OP.


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## cbrandt (Mar 8, 2019)

It can be done. I wouldn't use an aura, or any wash light. a profile with a significantly higher output than the rest of your rig helps a great deal. The number one challenge, as you've identified, is programming. Best methods are highly dependent on the console you're on. The number one thing you want is control of that movement. Something like a submaster that slowly takes over the position, or possibly a manual cue fade with the fader.

All that being said, for the cost of renting a couple auras you should be able to rent a fantastic follow spot.


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## Lextech (Mar 8, 2019)

What Amires said, actors will never stay in the light and you will spend all of your programming time on these cues. Moving lights should be thought of movable specials, not spotlights. Yes there is at least one product that, using cameras, can make a mover act like a spot but I have not used one and can't comment on how well it works or it's cost. I have heard that someone is showing a new tracking system at USITT so maybe soon it will be easy.


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## Amiers (Mar 8, 2019)

I hear the price tag is getting cheaper. But not that cheap. 

When I first started researching years ago it was 20k and a few years later it was 10k and after the people that made it got bought out it went down again. So hell it could be 5k and under.


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## RonHebbard (Mar 8, 2019)

Amiers said:


> I hear the price tag is getting cheaper. But not that cheap.
> 
> When I first started researching years ago it was 20k and a few years later it was 10k and after the people that made it got bought out it went down again. So hell it could be 5k and under.


 *@Jon Majors @Amiers @Lextech * *@cbrandt @Les* et al. Arena tours, such as ZZ Top's "Antennae" were paying IA members such as myself to sit beside our carbon and / or xenon Supers and Gladiators with them arced up and ready to rock purely to keep us on hot standby if / when their then SOTA super systems were to suddenly wander off into the house during a performance. I'm confident the auto follow systems have gotten both more affordable and more reliable but I suspect they're neither economical nor 100% reliable YET. 
Note: I'm not purporting my IA sisters and brothers are 100% yet either. 
Toodleoo! 
Ron Hebbard


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## Amiers (Mar 8, 2019)

Lol I’m apprently now running follow spot tonight. Let’s hope I can catch my pickup calls and hope the performer isn’t a wild one tonight.


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## Lextech (Mar 8, 2019)

Yep, ZZTop was using that technology years ago. It was problematic to say the least.


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## RonHebbard (Mar 8, 2019)

Lextech said:


> Yep, ZZTop was using that technology years ago. It was problematic to say the least.


 *@Lextech @Jon Majors @Amiers @cbrandt* and *@Les* A quick Google purports ZZ Top's Antenna tour was 1994, scarcely two decades ago, much later than DC, brine dimmers and wicking whale oil. 
Toodleoo! 
Ron Hebbard


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## Amiers (Mar 8, 2019)

I think every time we talk about autofollow the ZZtop thing gets brought up. 

We should sticky/wiki autofollow Systems.


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## RonHebbard (Mar 9, 2019)

Amiers said:


> I think every time we talk about autofollow the ZZtop thing gets brought up.
> 
> We should sticky/wiki autofollow Systems.


 *@Amiers* Agreed, _please do_. From memory the system was controlling six fixtures (two FOH plus one back light per each of the two members) Occasionally they would intentionally pull one or two of the four front lights to spot the two Top girls, (the ladies in the butt-floss bikinis as a couple of my IA kin referred to them) by design but it was not at all uncommon for any of the six wigglers to opt to wander off target totally at their own whim. The designers had absolute limits set in software to keep them within reasonable confines but the limits were pretty liberal to allow for the whims of the two leads who relished their own creative freedoms. Several times per performance we were VERY close to being called in but always, at the last second, we'd be told to relax as the errant lamp or two swung back onto its designated target of the moment. At the time this was still AMAZING _bleeding edge technology_ considering they were pulling this off live with real time 3D triangulation on an international arena tour in 1994. The next system I recall seeing was either owned or leased 24 / 7 / 365 in one of the larger gaming rooms in the Ontario government's Windsor, Ontario casino in the town were *@EdSavoie* is attending university currently. I never had any involvement with the system in Windsor, I was subcontracted to a subcontractor who was contracted to upgrade the automated dancing waters system originally installed in Casino Windsor's central lobby. This was where and when I had my brief face to face chat with *@Rob* since my boss had elected to build and install interfaces to control variable speed water pumps along with solenoid operated water and pneumatic valves. As I explained it to my boss; think of this as DMX controlled dimmers and non-dims for water and air so why not use *@Rob*'s proven Canadian DMX software to control essentially DMX dimmers and non-dims in a Canadian show piece installation in the central lobby of the provincial government's casino attracting US gamblers by the car load. Both *@Rob* and his software made a great first impression and, though we've never met since, I remain impressed by him, his products, and his corporate philosophies to this day. 'nough said. 
Do please include this thread * @Amiers* in CB's WIKI as you deem fit. 
Proudly posting from north of Donald's walls. 
Toodleoo! 
Ron Hebbard


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## EdSavoie (Mar 9, 2019)

I've heard about the water system. That got ripped out when they converted that area to a performance venue...
(Sorry)


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## Rob (Mar 9, 2019)

Thanx @RonHebbard 

This thread is so long, please excuse me if I've posted this before. Cognito, Palette and Marquee do this very cool linear movement thing that works great with sliders if the path is a straight line - like across the plaster line or on a runway. This video demonstrates it nicely.


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## kiwitechgirl (Mar 11, 2019)

Jon Majors said:


> My school has terrible followspots so I am thinking about renting 2 Mac Auras and utilizing those as followspots in our upcoming musical. Would you or would you not try this? The idea of color mixing with the Auras seems beneficial since we can add front light to any specific area without it really seeming like a followspot. My concern is actually in the cueing. Should I be concerned that the actors won't always follow the exact same path/timing if I'm using the Aura as a followspot? Obviously rehearsing it over and over will be helpful but I want to consider every con.
> 
> Thanks for the input!



Don't. Your actors won't be in exactly the same place every show. We're currently running an automated followspot system at the moment - cast members are wearing transmitters which the spot locks onto, so fairly high-tech and a lot better than programming a moving light path and expecting the actors to do exactly the same thing every night. We still have followspot operators on the show. And there's almost never a show report without a problem with the automated spots on it; this is the second system we've tried, after the first one got cut in production week and spot ops hurriedly booked. We're talking about a national opera company here - so the budgets aren't small. Just don't do it, rent better followspots instead.


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## Dionysus (Mar 11, 2019)

kiwitechgirl said:


> Don't. Your actors won't be in exactly the same place every show. We're currently running an automated followspot system at the moment - cast members are wearing transmitters which the spot locks onto, so fairly high-tech and a lot better than programming a moving light path and expecting the actors to do exactly the same thing every night. We still have followspot operators on the show. And there's almost never a show report without a problem with the automated spots on it; this is the second system we've tried, after the first one got cut in production week and spot ops hurriedly booked. We're talking about a national opera company here - so the budgets aren't small. Just don't do it, rent better followspots instead.



I've done LOTS of shows (pro, semi-pro and amateur) with moving lights or I-Cues and programmed spots... And yes there have been issues, however, I've also had it work consistently well. Would I love a tracking system? Yes, but its certainly not in the budget. I've found a big part is in how you think of programming them, taking time to get the blocking down and insisting on performers blocking being well established and running the lights with them multiple times (usually Q2Q, Tech & 2 Dress). 
Of course, I've had varied success, the pros have never really been a problem. Some of the amateurs are amazing, and some just don't follow the same path. Rate isn't the worst thing ever as I usually break the path up in multiple cues when able to allow for varied pacing.
Heck, I've had it work with shows where the entire cast is kids. STILL I'd RATHER have followspots with operators most of the time when I can depending on the show (thinking musicals mostly), however usually I can't swing followspots (venue limitations, budget, fitting in a follow spot thats actually bright enough for the use, etc) so I stick to I-Cues and such.



This is a crappy cellphone picture of one such show where instead of followspots in the balcony (would have needed ones that would have been out of budget) used my two I-cues and two Chauvet R2 spots from foh, and two R2 spots from backstage to supplement the existing lighting rig of LEDs and conventionals. The two I-cues and R2 spots at times were all programmed tracking spots (yes this is in a highschool, co-LD'd with a student who is now working in the industry, note up here in Canada we don't tend to have the spaces, and money available as many of the big schools in the US do. This is an arts-focused high school in a mid-sized city). 
The Result? Actually better and more consistent than they've had some times in the past with actual follow spots (of course that's operator error).

So SOMETIMES it can work just fine.

I'd LOVE to have a high end tracking system, or PRG GroundControl in my back pocket... Reality is, I will NEVER have the budget for that.


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