# Small (Potentially Portable) Stage Lighting



## StradivariusBone (Nov 12, 2013)

The church I work at has a kid's ministry that does a lot of theatrical things. They have a small space (kinda black-box-ish in nature) that's a large, rectangular room with a fairly decent sound reinforcement setup. They currently have two strips of the track lights with angle-adjustable household pars that you see in 90's-era kitchens. Those are on dimmers. They are looking to upgrade the lighting for when they do their shows (they also film stuff there too) and asked me for input. 

Initially I was thinking that we could remove the track lighting and the dimmer and straight patch it to a receptacle in the overhead (ceiling is not more than 12'). Get someone to install a batten and hang LED pars on it, probably with some barn doors. The ceiling is wood rafters, but I would recommend they hire a rigger to do the work. Plug into the existing power and run some DMX cable. From talking with them, they really just want the flexibility to do more color and illuminate different areas of the stage at different times instead of "on, dim, off". 

The other thought they had was to find some way to have a more portable and adjustable set up. They do frequently adjust the stage (it's all movable platforms in front of black walls) so it would be helpful to have something. The only issue there is that there's a lot of kids and that makes me nervous safety-wise. The only thing I could think that would be safe would be a single piece of truss on a base plate acting as a boom or tree. In my mind that'd be less likely to tip than the older style booms.

Just wondering if anyone here had any insight in working with small spaces.


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## Pie4Weebl (Nov 12, 2013)

Is there a way the rigger could install a pipe grid over the whole room allowing you to move lights around as the stage changes? If you are just planning on installing LED pars in a fixed position truss isn't needed.


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## Focus (Nov 13, 2013)

Pie4Weebl said:


> Is there a way the rigger could install a pipe grid over the whole room allowing you to move lights around as the stage changes? If you are just planning on installing LED pars in a fixed position truss isn't needed.


agreed, a pipe grid can be installed at the price of just a couple lengths of truss, and will be more flexible. If the angle works, and the construction of the building is appropriate, you could even have unistut installed on the wooden beams, and use strut-clamps for fixtures. You may be more limited on weight, but that probably won't be an issue, baring hanging moving lights and tons of fixtures.


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## David Ashton (Nov 13, 2013)

You can't light it with led pars only, it will look awful, especially on video, you need a wash of incandescents to give flesh colours and you can add leds for a bit of colour and movement.


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## Focus (Nov 13, 2013)

David Ashton said:


> You can't light it with led pars only, it will look awful, especially on video, you need a wash of incandescents to give flesh colours and you can add leds for a bit of colour and movement.


You need to buy better LEDs.
Regardless of fixtures the above solutions still work.


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## StradivariusBone (Nov 13, 2013)

Keep in mind, the average age of kid here is 5-12, and they're really doing this more for fun than for professionalism. The throw distance is never going to be more than 12-14' on average, with most of it being less than that. I was concerned about using incandescent due to the proximity to the ceiling grid (standard office ceiling tiles) and the heat generated with tungsten. Knowing how this group operates, they could get a lot out of some little LED pars with barn doors, and upgrade as they go. They're going to want to do a bunch of chases and dynamic colors. It's more about them doing their church stuff and if a couple kids learn something about how to program and design lighting and/or audio too, then I think it's a good day.

I like the grid idea, but a full grid might be overkill here. I didn't even think about unistrut, that would probably be easiest with this particular ceiling. I've not worked with it with theatrical lighting before, I'm guessing from your recommendations the lighting hardware is easy to find. A grid spanning the width of the space and then maybe 6-8' front to back would probably work. The weight is going to be minimal, no moving fixtures or anything like that.


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## derekleffew (Nov 13, 2013)

Since you've mentioned it twice now...

StradivariusBone said:


> ... and hang LED pars on it, probably with some barn doors. ...


1. Barn doors don't work so good on LED fixtures, as each emitter is a separate light source. They'll eliminate glare, which is seldom a problem, but don't expect to use them for beam shaping as one would with a Fresnel.
2. For some reason, LEDs with colorframe runners are significantly more expensive than those without.
3. Since you have a minimal throw distance, make sure that fixtures you buy have a wide enough beam angle. Less expensive fixtures often have a narrower beam in order to increase intensity. Frost doesn't usually work, so then one gets into expensive lenses. http://www.controlbooth.com/threads/frost-and-led-emitters.32268/#post-284391


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## StradivariusBone (Nov 13, 2013)

That's a bummer. The lighting contractor the church has used was the one who was pushing me on the barn doors for shaping the beam. The performing space is maybe 15' wide, probably closer to 12' in its normal configuration. I think 8' deep. Would you suggest 25 degrees on up? For most of the positions they'd set it up in, that would cover a 5-6' spot if my math is correct.


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## derekleffew (Nov 13, 2013)

StradivariusBone said:


> ... Would you suggest 25 degrees on up? For most of the positions they'd set it up in, that would cover a 5-6' spot if my math is correct.


Beam diameter = distance * (2 * tan (beam angle in degrees / 2))
[For the math-phobic among us, use the PDF chart attached to this post.]
Ceiling height is 12'. Stage is 2'(?) high. Kid performer is 5'. Using the (optimum) 45° angle of elevation, (5' vertical and 5' horizontal) gives a throw distance of 7'. A 25° unit provides a pool of 3.1' at a plane 5' above the stage (7' above the floor). Actually it's an ellipse, with short axis of 3.1' and long axis of 4.7', but let's not quibble over details. 
If you were only lighting the floor and had no stage, throw distance would be 17' and a 25° would yield a pool of 7.5'. Back to reality of a raised stage: now one can lengthen the throw distance for more coverage by going with a flatter angle, but will suffer intensity loss as well as loss of plasticity.

If using units narrower than 40-50°, you're going to need a lot more of them, which take longer to focus and more care must be taken to blend adjacent units.

Just some food for thought.


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## StradivariusBone (Nov 13, 2013)

derekleffew said:


> Just some food for thought.



Very appreciated! The stage is about 4" tall, in the back I think it goes up to 8". They just use plywood platforms with 2x4's framing it.


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## Focus (Nov 13, 2013)

Unistrut and hardware can be had many places. We use Inventory Sales. There are tons of mounting options and accessories for strut.

TheLightSource.com has the specific clamps for fixtures, they also have clamps for making pipe grids as well, if you went that direction.

Here is a link to the clamps. 
http://www.thelightsource.com/products/uni-bolt-for-strut-channels-82


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## Focus (Nov 13, 2013)

Barndoors on leds, tend to give you a shadowy edge composed of each individual led, it looks funky, especially with multicolor leds.

That said, chauvet and elation, have some pretty good and wideish pars, in rgba, and rgbaw that can do good looking washes. You can get decent quality for a few hundred bucks each. 

One caveat is that some cheaper leds will flicker on video.


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## David Ashton (Nov 13, 2013)

before you spend thousands on Leds alone watch this guy,


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## Focus (Nov 13, 2013)

David Ashton said:


> before you spend thousands on Leds alone watch this guy,



Care to sum it up for those of use who don't want to(or cannot) spend 15 minutes watching a youtube?


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## Focus (Nov 13, 2013)

David Ashton said:


> You can't light it with led pars only, it will look awful, especially on video, you need a wash of incandescents to give flesh colours and you can add leds for a bit of colour and movement.



Check out the Mole-Richardson LED Fresnel; they look exactly Like the classic tungsten, both in light quality and physical build. The even have LED retrofits.

All existing accessories work just the same too, You would not know it was an LED is no one told you it was. Had a demo of these a couple month ago; they really hit the mark. Mole, did not want to sell a compromised product, so they waited to get into LEDs until they could reproduce the same quality with at least 80-90% of the output of the traditional fixture.


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## derekleffew (Nov 13, 2013)

David Ashton said:


> before you spend thousands on Leds alone watch this guy,


Fair enough David, but also watch this one:


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## JD (Nov 13, 2013)

Focus said:


> Care to sum it up for those of use who don't want to(or cannot) spend 15 minutes watching a youtube?


It's actually worth the 15 minutes. LEDs serve a purpose but should not themselves become the "purpose."


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## Focus (Nov 13, 2013)

derekleffew said:


> Fair enough David, but also watch this one:



I watched your's because it was only 2 minutes. The camera work left something to be desired, but, the point was single leds have poor CRI, ETC has some stuff in theirs to fix that. Got it. The Moles that I mentioned above, actually look perfect right out of the gate, I Don't remember the CRI, but they blend flawlessly with their tungsten counterparts.


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## Focus (Nov 13, 2013)

Also, its not like I work for Mole-Richardson, but it was the first time I saw an LED fixture and was actually in awe; its really that good. They have a stellar reputation and history in film/video lighting, and the new products continue that trend.


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## derekleffew (Nov 13, 2013)

Focus said:


> ... The camera work left something to be desired, but, ...


That would be our crack webmaster, or webmaster on crack, @dvsDave . He'll probably blame it on @gafftaper, however. :wink: *bold *color

I'm guessing this is the MR unit to which you are refering: http://www.mole.com/lighting/led/baby/baby_led.html . Six inch 1kW Fresnel replacement; MSRP for the DMX version is $1895, which I believe is comparable to the ETC Desire. I don't work for ETC either, and will say that probably neither is appropriate for a youth room in a church.

As said above, I'd look at lower end RGBA/RGBW/RGBAW fixtures from Chauvet or Elation. Maybe Blizzard, or the local dealer's "house brand". I have a no-name RGB LED PAR64 that I bought "direct from China" via eBay for $89, and I have to say, it's awful. But I might throw ten or a dozen of them with a SmartFade or Jands CL (more likely an old PC desktop running ChamSys MagicQ however) in a youth room. They're marginally better than a 150W PAR38 or R40 track light. YMMV.


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## dvsDave (Nov 13, 2013)

Focus said:


> The camera work left something to be desired.



Yeah, I forgot my video monopod that day. It was close to the end of the day and my arms were killing me. If I could go back and re-shoot that, I would in a heartbeat.


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## Focus (Nov 13, 2013)

derekleffew said:


> That would be our crack webmaster, or webmaster on crack, @dv8dave. He'll probably blame it on @gafftaper, however. :wink: *bold *color
> 
> I'm guessing this is the MR unit to which you are refering: http://www.mole.com/lighting/led/baby/baby_led.html . Six inch 1kW Fresnel replacement; MSRP for the DMX version is $1895, which I believe is comparable to the ETC Desire. I don't work for ETC either, and will say that probably neither is appropriate for a youth room in a church.
> 
> As said above, I'd look at lower end RGBA/RGBW/RGBAW fixtures from Chauvet or Elation. Maybe Blizzard, or the local dealer's "house brand". I have a no-name RGB LED PAR64 that I bought "direct from China" via eBay for $89, and I have to say, it's awful. But I might throw ten or a dozen of them with a SmartFade or Jands CL (more likely an old PC desktop running ChamSys MagicQ however) in a youth room. They're marginally better than a 150W PAR38 or R40 track light. YMMV.



I think some mid-lower end LED are an appropriate fir for the application, the slim pars and colorado series, and the optipar are, I think, good, for the price. The Mole and ETC fixtures are an example of how good LEDs have gotten, but a little off topic for this application.


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## Focus (Nov 13, 2013)

dvsDave said:


> Yeah, I forgot my video monopod that day. It was close to the end of the day and my arms were killing me. If I could go back and re-shoot that, I would in a heartbeat.


I wont hold it against you, at least it was brief and to the point.


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## pmolsonmus (Nov 13, 2013)

Would an ETC SmartBar2 meet your needs? Control with a laptop and Chamsys MagicQ. Combine traditional and LEDs.


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## gafftaper (Nov 14, 2013)

There's one big question here that can quickly invalidate all the posts so far. What kind of a budget are you looking at @StradivariusBone . My guess is you are going to say something like under $1000. In which case the only option you have is unistrut track, direct from china ebay LED's, and a lot of prayer.


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## David Ashton (Nov 14, 2013)

All I said was use some incandescents and add the parcan Leds for colour and movement, the fact that you can buy $2000 Leds that are nearly as good as halogen fresnels is fascinating but hardly relevant. if their budget is over $20k I stand corrected.


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## StradivariusBone (Nov 14, 2013)

gafftaper said:


> There's one big question here that can quickly invalidate all the posts so far. What kind of a budget are you looking at @StradivariusBone . My guess is you are going to say something like under $1000. In which case the only option you have is unistrut track, direct from china ebay LED's, and a lot of prayer.



That's actually been my first question. If you've never worked in a church before, you won't know the pure joy of trying to actually zero in on a dollar value. At least if they told me $100, I'd go down to the hardware store, buy a 10 pack of clip lights and order some gel and gaff tape and call it good. They haven't really established a budget for this, but they're telling me that there is "some money available". 

In all honesty, I'm guessing we are in the $1-2k range with this project. I was also thinking PC-based controller. I've had good fortune with LightFactory, but there are a million out there. The power distribution is a concern because at worst we have 1 15amp circuit to tap (best- two 20amps). Combine that with the low ceiling and that's where I was pushing more towards the LEDs. I didn't mean to imply them as a replacement for tungsten, it just made more sense here. 

It'd be nice to go a little beyond the china LED's, but as many of you have noted this ain't exactly the Met.


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## JD (Nov 14, 2013)

Often in a church, it's more like $300 !
The trick that works is to try to put a small system together in the 1 to 2k price, see if you can borrow the equipment and demonstration it to your Vestry/Finance Committee. Once they see it, explain that the $300 just won't work, but we could do this for $x. Often, once seen, they are more inclined to agree to the needed price.

One other thought- Although computer based solutions give you the biggest "bang for the buck" (provided you have a spare computer), there is a lot to be said for a simple-to-explain conventional board such as a scene-setter or one of the chauvets. Remember, your operator may be on a short learning curve (like, 10 minutes before showtime!) so keep it simple.


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## MarfaLights (Nov 15, 2013)

I loved Steve Terry's talk. Summarized as, "don't let technology override art." I agree completely but feel like he is among the last standing against the LED tide. I have resisted LEDs until this year. Now I may never do another gel color wash, but I'm not giving up my Source 4s either. When the grant money comes in, we'll buy ETC Desire X7 stuff for the main venue. Until then, a decent RGBAW does a great job for mobile events and color wash in the 200-seat regular venue. In fact, I'm about to go hang for a 14-piece band right now with LED color and Source4 front.


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## Focus (Nov 15, 2013)

David Ashton said:


> before you spend thousands on Leds alone watch this guy,



Wow. Long winded, and Pretentious to say the least.

Theses are things that everyone who has used LEDs already know. LEDs are not robbing us of our art, they are only adding another tool for us to utilize in the way that we see fit.
Seriously, saving the planet with LEDs is not the compelling interest, it being able to Use more fixtures in a crappy ballroom, with only wall power, or being able to put on a decent rock show, where there is only a 100A service, Or running less soca cable to a truss. 

No one is forcing people into buying LEDs. I hardly think that LEDs are a "disruptive" technology, this guy probably hid in his closet when they introduced touch-tone phones, because they robbed him of the art of spinning his finger in a circle. 

If he felt that The technology overshadowed a production, than its is a persons fault, not a piece of gear.

This was a presentation at USITT? Seemed High school theater class to me. 
Also, Did they add a laugh track to this video?


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## STEVETERRY (Nov 15, 2013)

Focus said:


> Wow. Long winded, and Pretentious to say the least.
> 
> Theses are things that everyone who has used LEDs already know. LEDs are not robbing us of our art, they are only adding another tool for us to utilize in the way that we see fit.
> Seriously, saving the planet with LEDs is not the compelling interest, it being able to Use more fixtures in a crappy ballroom, with only wall power, or being able to put on a decent rock show, where there is only a 100A service, Or running less soca cable to a truss.
> ...




Mr. Focus--

When you have amassed enough career credibility to make these types of rude and inept comments, please let us know.

Sincerely,

Steve Terry
VP R&D, ETC


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## Focus (Nov 15, 2013)

To imply that the existence of LEDs is robbing people of their ability to make design decisions, is just silly, and displays a low opinion of your contemporaries. Certainly there are people who get overexcited about technology and apply it in wast that are not Ideal, but that is there prerogative. If you don't like it, don't do the same and don't see those shows; certainly you are welcome to speak about it, and you obviously have an audience.

Sorry is that came off very rude. I thought you were a boring presenter. 

I do realize you have quite the career history and lots of accomplishments, and You seem to have no trouble tearing down other peoples work in a public forum; instead of hinting at who they are why not just say their names? Or the names of the productions?


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## JD (Nov 15, 2013)

The thing is that many of the decisions regarding LED use are coming from the "corporate" level where there is often a lack of knowledge of the arts. 
Best example is Disney. Don't get me wrong, Disney is near the top of the charts and has great designers. But... A few years back they announced that they are converting their parks over to LED. This included the lighting at most of their theater locations. While down there last year I was talking to one of their show designers and he related the pressure to include LED fixtures, or in some cases do complete shows with LED were pretty intense. 
In an effort to improve "corporate" image, I suspect many designers are feeling non-artistic pressure.


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## Focus (Nov 15, 2013)

JD, This may be true, but I suspect it is the minority. LEDs are still defiantly in their infancy, but they do have their place. ETC was a little late to the game, but that is not a bad thing. Early LED fixtures were junk, and selling said junk has tainted some reputations. Some current stuff is pretty decent, but there are aspects of lighting that cannot be don well, or cost effectively with yet with LED. Lots of people felt the same way about moving lights, "they don't belong in theater," but they have more than two setting(off and BallyHoo), an now those people are dead, and we are happy to incorporate moving lights into shows, even if you never see them move.

If you show a "corporate" guy two fixtures on S4 @575, and one Selecon PLProfile4, even he will see that the S4 is way brighter, and the Selecon is way more expensive. (the selecon was drawing 465w at ~3200K, and gave 40% less light)


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## StradivariusBone (Nov 15, 2013)

Holy hijacked thread, Batman! Again I feel I must point out that I never sought to open warfare on tungsten vs. silicon. My thought process stemmed from a power structure and heat-related standpoint. My primary job is in a high school theatre where we employ no shortage of S4's. But that building was purposefully built to house those instruments with the appropriate power grid and HVAC systems in place. 

The application here is going to be very close to a drop ceiling and in a room under 1000 sqft with lots of kids, and adults who may not fully appreciate the heat a fixture can generate. That's why I was thinking LED would be the best option. I was not trying to imply anything about art or craft, but functionality. 

I'm sorry this has taken a turn toward the negative, my apologies for opening a can of worms.





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## JD (Nov 15, 2013)

StradivariusBone said:


> I'm sorry this has taken a turn toward the negative, my apologies for opening a can of worms.



No need! Vector issues are a common feature and develop on their own. They can often be quite informative as long as they remain civil. In this case the "growing pains" of the industry are exposed, brought to light by the question of which way to go with change and/or expansion. Do you stick with a conventional system, or go with new technology? Doesn't matter if it's a church school theater or a 2000 seat venue. The same issues are exposed


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## David Ashton (Nov 16, 2013)

there would hardly be a show where I don't use conventionals, movers and Leds and each has its function, in this case the conventionals need only be low power parcans or fresnels to light faces and the cheap Leds for colour and movement, you could use very expensive Leds to get reasonable flesh tones, but why bother as you would never get a return on your investment through power savings and there's not much can go wrong with a parcan, don't believe the mythical 50,000 hour life of a Led, never has a cheap Led lasted this long, either the Leds die or the power supplies or the fans.
There seems to be a school of thought that says "why use conventionals when Leds can do almost the same job for 10 times the price"


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## derekleffew (Nov 20, 2013)

StradivariusBone said:


> ... They currently have two strips of the track lights with angle-adjustable household pars that you see in 90's-era kitchens. ...


Hey, I resemble that remark!


Above installed in 1994. Were it today, it would be LED down cans.


StradivariusBone said:


> ... Initially I was thinking that we could remove the track lighting and the dimmer and straight patch it to a receptacle in the overhead (ceiling is not more than 12'). ...


Sorry I didn't mention this before; I just thought of it. Since money is tight,
1. Have a licensed electrician replace the wall dimmers with toggle switches. Maybe keyswitches to prevent unauthorized use / accidental black-outs.
2. Buy as many track adapters (make sure they're compatible with your brand of track)

as you buy LED fixtures.
3. Mount Unistrut six inches or so parallel to the tracks.
4. You'll still have to run and dress the DMX cable. Note: Smart-Track® Lighting System by Altman eliminates all wires from view, but would get costly quickly.

5. Once everyone likes it, you'll have a better case for adding power/data/pipe grid in other parts of the room.


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## StradivariusBone (Nov 20, 2013)

derekleffew said:


> 2. Buy as many track adapters (make sure they're compatible with your brand of track)



That is easily the coolest thing I've seen all week. I had no idea such an adapter existed, very cool!


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## RickR (Nov 21, 2013)

These are a good pairing with the power adapters. A place to tie up those DMX lines.


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## MarfaLights (Nov 22, 2013)

StradivariusBone said:


> That is easily the coolest thing I've seen all week. I had no idea such an adapter existed, very cool!


If you plug the track light into that fancy adapter, do you get free electricity?


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## StradivariusBone (Nov 2, 2015)

So reviving an older thread- *To catch up for those who don't want to read through 3 pages of it*- I work part-time for my church as their AV tech and I was previously approached about upgrades to our kid ministry's performance/multi-purpose room. At the time I did a cursory glance and the money kinda petered out so the project died. Recently I was asked to revisit this and putting fresh eyes on the project has caused me to realize that there is some seriously dodgy stuff going on there. 

Namely, they have two EV sx300's hung incorrectly and their track lighting they are using is only suspended with drywall anchors through the ceiling tiles. Nothing goes into metal at any point. So this is now on my front burner at getting it fixed as quickly and safely as possible. 

Here's some photos-



This is from about the middle of the room, looking towards their stage area. There is another EV hung to the left, just out of the picture. The two rows of track lighting are being held up by the ceiling tiles only.




This is a picture of how these things are suspended. Bent eye lags, dog chain, and quick links. It's like the hat trick of bad rigging. 


Better view of the hardware they used/made. 


So I've started pricing out the MB100 kits and other hardware. Since this is dead hung, is Grade 30 chain an acceptable choice for this application? I know of the very long and verbose thread arguing the merits the phrase "overhead lifting", and I don't wish to reproduce that here. I will happily spec the safest chain if that's where the argument is now.

As far as the rafters go, I was thinking of bridging a piece of unistrut on top of the joists and lagging the unistrut into the wood from the top then using an eye bolt to provide a point. Does this make sense? I thought about bolting a shouldered eye through the joist (which are 2x8), or possibly getting really long eye bolts and going vertically through the joist, but both worry me with regards to weakening the joist. 

As far as the lighting goes, the track lights are fed from junction boxes into flex conduit so I don't think it will be too hard to put those into junction boxes and mount them in the ceiling grid to provide power for the lighting. My plan there is to provide two "battens" of unistrut and mount a healthy mixture of LED and PAR38's fed from two shoebox dimmers. Not sure if the track lights are on separate breakers, but I don't intend on using more than 10 amps worth of lighting in any event. 

I was also thinking that suspending the unistrut track for the lighting in a similar fashion as the speakers. Then instead of chain, dropping all-thread to suspend the longer piece for the lighting. I've been talking to a rigging friend of mine from a neighboring theatre and plan on talking to an electrician friend who's messed with unistrut before, but as always I like to get the opinion of the booth. 

Thanks!


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## RickR (Nov 2, 2015)

There are some new parts for working with T-bar. Look into Independent Support Clips. Cooper make similar stuff, of course. They allow for good support for the track lighting or even small(<50lbs) point loads. The real key is that they have support attachments from above so the T-bar isn't part of the chain.

While I've done a lot of stuff with strut, it's good to know that lighting track is intended to be self supporting. Most commercial electricians know strut and track lighting.


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## JChenault (Nov 2, 2015)

StradivariusBone said:


> As far as the rafters go, I was thinking of bridging a piece of unistrut on top of the joists and lagging the unistrut into the wood from the top then using an eye bolt to provide a point. Does this make sense? I thought about bolting a shouldered eye through the joist (which are 2x8), or possibly getting really long eye bolts and going vertically through the joist, but both worry me with regards to weakening the joist.



I am not a rigger nor do I play one on TV - however have you considered simply passing the chain around the joist. using a shackle to close the loop, and hanging the speaker from the chain? You have to be precise with your lengths ( depending on chain size , etc) but this might be an easier way to do it. No holes to drill. No eye bolt ( possibly non rated) to fail. You do have the chain possibly digging into the joist, but this does not seem like a major issue in the application.

( In my space we needed to hang light pipes and a focus track front of house. There were some sturdy joists and we ran 1 1/2 inch pipe over the top of the joist , overlapping several joists to spread the load. Tacked it down with plumbers tape, and then simply passed chain from the pipe hanger on the light pipe over the top pipe and back down. Worked beautifully. This method was recommended by the manufacturer of the focus track )


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