# Playing music without proper licenses



## Anonymous067 (Nov 26, 2009)

What is the proper way to license or authorize yourself to play music during say, a dance show, or, a talent show...

and the talent brings you a burned CD, no doubt from limewire or something (and probably sounds like crap...)...how do I "legally" play this during the show?

Also...is it true you can get away with playing personal music before a show from say...your computer or ipod...by claiming that you haven't started the show yet, you were playing it for personal use, and all the people in the seats before the show just happened to hear it?

I always thought you were allowed to play music you bought yourself for personal use, but not for an audience.

PS-I did search for this, but couldn't get the tags right and couldn't find what I was looking for..sorry for the repeatedness of this thread.


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## cprted (Nov 27, 2009)

Blah067 said:


> What is the proper way to license or authorize yourself to play music during say, a dance show, or, a talent show...
> 
> and the talent brings you a burned CD, no doubt from limewire or something (and probably sounds like crap...)...how do I "legally" play this during the show?


At my venue, our approach is if the client provides it, we assume they have made the proper arrangements (ignorance is legal bliss) and we do not see ourselves as responsible for enforcing copyright law. Their show, their music, their problem, we're just the venue ... 

In Canada, all music licensing is done through SOCAN, I assume there is a similar organization(s) in the US. They have a fairly good FAQ on their website.


Blah067 said:


> Also...is it true you can get away with playing personal music before a show from say...your computer or ipod...by claiming that you haven't started the show yet, you were playing it for personal use, and all the people in the seats before the show just happened to hear it?


No dice, at least not under Canadian law. You can listen to your own tunes up until the house opens. Once you have an audience (even if it is pre-show), it has to be licensed.


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## Thefoxygranpa (Nov 27, 2009)

Hmmm ASCAP and BMI are the largest companies that come to mind for licensing music to played for the public[In the US at least]. Check them out first as they control most of the royalties for broadcasting if I'm not mistaken. You can obtain the proper licensing for your theatre, best to contact someone there.

The dance companies that I've worked with had the licensing for performance, so that usually falls on the company bringing a show in.

Music you buy is to be played for your personal use only, even if people "happened" to hear it. It's a fine fine line that I don't think I'd want to be caught in.

A little rusty on the exact details, had to deal with this a few years back and its not so fresh. There are free alternatives to this, such as royalty free music. Take a look at Free and legal music downloads - Jamendo . Tons of different genres and such, and it will clearly state how they are copyrighted and the details on broadcast. Most of it is released under variants of the Creative Commons License.


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## DuckJordan (Nov 29, 2009)

as far as talent show goes, if you are in a school environment, easiest way to get around the licensing fees is most talent shows only include students so they classify it as an educational experience, this broad and overly used excuse is how most of our pre-show music and talent show music is "licensed"


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## cprted (Nov 29, 2009)

DuckJordan said:


> as far as talent show goes, if you are in a school environment, easiest way to get around the licensing fees is most talent shows only include students so they classify it as an educational experience, this broad and overly used excuse is how most of our pre-show music and talent show music is "licensed"


You still have to fill out the paper work and apply for a license (under those circumstances they are much cheaper). Just because your show is educational doesn't mean you can go ahead and play whatever you want without permission.


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## DuckJordan (Nov 29, 2009)

then they have been doing illegally for over 15 years. so it must be something they just overlook.


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## cprted (Nov 29, 2009)

DuckJordan said:


> then they have been doing illegally for over 15 years. so it must be something they just overlook.


Yup.

While the risk of the copyright police showing up is incredibly minute, it can cost you if they do.


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## DuckJordan (Nov 29, 2009)

lol, me? no school district yes lol, frankly i think they've been putting money away for it cause they take about half our profit from shows and don't tell us where its going and frankly they have enough since they only payed me a quarter of what i should be saying the other 3/4 is for theater maintenance costs... We've replaced everything with our own budget so i was wondering where that money went must be to pay off the licensing fees


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## museav (Nov 30, 2009)

This is the type of issue that should be addressed by experts, and that means experts in the related legal areas, and in light of your specific situation. Anything said here is likely personal interpretation or others' experiences in other situations and the following comments are purely my understandings and are not to be taken as legal interpretations or guidance.



Blah067 said:


> Also...is it true you can get away with playing personal music before a show from say...your computer or ipod...by claiming that you haven't started the show yet, you were playing it for personal use, and all the people in the seats before the show just happened to hear it?


I don't believe that would fly at all, especially considering that it is taking place in a space that is likely legally defined as a public assembly space.



cprted said:


> At my venue, our approach is if the client provides it, we assume they have made the proper arrangements (ignorance is legal bliss) and we do not see ourselves as responsible for enforcing copyright law. Their show, their music, their problem, we're just the venue ....


You are right that it is not your job to enforce the law, but it is your job to comply with it. You cannot assume that others took care of the rights and I have actually seen judges state that ignorance is no excuse. The following is from the Criterion Pictures web site's FAQs

> Ignorance of the law is not a defense. Many people can be held accountable when breaking The Copyright Act. The school’s principal, the teacher, the media technician and the school board can all be held liable, depending on their involvement. Every individual "involved" in the violation is liable.


I believe that at least in the US the venue does assume some responsibility for obtaining performance rights for public performances on their property unless the event is handled by a production company and the related responsibility is transferred to the production company as part of the production agreement. Maybe someone else can comment on the possibility of having a signed contract that clearly states that another party is responsible and accepts all liability but 



DuckJordan said:


> as far as talent show goes, if you are in a school environment, easiest way to get around the licensing fees is most talent shows only include students so they classify it as an educational experience, this broad and overly used excuse is how most of our pre-show music and talent show music is "licensed"


One of the most misunderstood and abused aspects of copyright law is educational use. There are criteria on what defines educational use and my understanding is that it being in a school or student only would not necessarily be sufficient justification. There can be many factors in educational or academic fair use such as it involving "faqce-to-face" teaching, the amount of the copyrighted work used, the relevance to a curriculum, whether it is in a classroom setting and so on, see Public Performance Rights for Movies and the Face to Face Teaching Exemption &mdash; Student Activities and Leadership Development &mdash; CSB/SJU. It would be difficult to show that a talent show is a "face-to-face" academic application or is part of a class or curriculum.


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## Cashwalker (Dec 1, 2009)

So where does "private/personal use" legally end if:


I'm the owner of a recent model Honda Civic
I have retro-fitted said Civic with a 1000 watt amplifier and twin 20-inch woofers with 2 Farad capacitors for that extra OOMPH
I am playing copyrighted rap music at full volume
While driving public streets passing hundreds of pedestrians


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## DuckJordan (Dec 1, 2009)

your in the legal there, everyone else should be wearing ear plugs . at least thats how i believe the standards are. although to add on to that what if you put a speaker system outside your car>?


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## museav (Dec 1, 2009)

DuckJordan said:


> your in the legal there, everyone else should be wearing ear plugs . at least thats how i believe the standards are. although to add on to that what if you put a speaker system outside your car>?


Remember, this is civil law so you cannot really be "legal". At least in the US nothing prevents a copyright holder from claiming infringement and it does not take much to make a viable claim, it is not innocent until proven guilty it is simply showing a reasonable chance of any injury or damage, which in the case of copyright is not usually physical injury or damage but rather relating to financial, reputation, etc.

In the case of a car, I believe that a car is considered personal property and thus what you do in it is probably considered the same as what you do in your home, thus it would normally be personal use. However, if you are violating a noise ordinance or it can be successfully argued that there was intent to present to a larger audience, then an argument could probably be made that it was infringement via public performance. That's my interpretation but as an Attorney once told me, logic can have little to do with it and their job is often to play in the gray areas and try to mold desirable interpretations.

I can't stress this enough, this is a tricky area and these are legal interpretations. The fines for infringement can be very large and in the case of students or minors, could directly affect others. Do not assume that what you think should be right or what follows common sense is right, consult a legal expert.


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## cprted (Dec 1, 2009)

museav said:


> cprted said:
> 
> 
> > At my venue, our approach is if the client provides it, we assume they have made the proper arrangements (ignorance is legal bliss) and we do not see ourselves as responsible for enforcing copyright law. Their show, their music, their problem, we're just the venue ....
> ...


I should have added a disclaimer saying that the above is the policy sent down from on high at our venue and may not necessarily comply with copyright law and should not be taken as legal advice of any kind.

I think this is a valuable discussion to have, but at the end of the day, no one should be taking legal advice from an anonymous internet forum.


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## SHARYNF (Dec 1, 2009)

The fines for illegal download can be large, the fines for playing music without the proper license tend to be minor. Sadly when ever I talk with musician friends who are not on the A list, they laugh about the collection societies. The ways the system works the well known artists get paid the rest rarely if ever see anything. For the system to really work properly each venue would need to have an automatic system that records each song played, time etc etc, and then generate the information that the Ascaps etc would then use to actually pay the artist for the song that was actually played. Fact is this doesn't and cannot happen, so the societies make a statistical estimate based on the reporting locations that they have. SO if your song gets radio play from a station that submits electronically, then you MIGHT get something. So for instance if you are Metallica you will get paid, if you are ?????? forget about getting paid.

So from a small artists stand point, the whole system is sort of a waste
Sharyn


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## shiben (Dec 2, 2009)

Our school holds a universal site license with a couple of groups, basically allowing us to play just about any music that has been produced in the past hundred years at our shows, provided that it has been legally obtained. When I was working on a dance recital, one of the choreographers brought in a particularly poor bit of music, the sound engineer and I got on youtube, downloaded the first video that came up, and then matched to two up on SADIE. Perfect match. Sent the CD back to the choreographer with a note saying that they really should look into obtaining music at a place that a pile of internet savvy techies dont already know about, such as the local CD retailer . Next day, we had a still sealed CD in our office. The point of the entire thing is that licences do exist for educational institutions, but i believe they cost thousands a year, but im not sure about that. Probably look into getting one of those.


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## Anonymous067 (Dec 9, 2009)

Cashwalker said:


> So where does "private/personal use" legally end if:
> 
> 
> I'm the owner of a recent model Honda Civic
> ...



Please don't do this. It's incredibly annoying...


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## erosing (Dec 9, 2009)

Here's one for you. 
I once had a teacher that thought it was perfectly fine to play any music at anytime (performances), and that if you were a student it was also perfectly acceptable to download music for projects. He did this for a few years. He eventually was fired for that and some other things, had series of fines handed to him, and last I heard he hasn't been able to find a teaching job yet, he was fired over 4 years ago.

In short, don't do it, and pay for the licenses.


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