# Controling Dimmers with Ethernet?



## cupcakehitman (Mar 25, 2009)

Hey everyone

The operations manager at the college I'm planning on transferring to told me that they don't use DMX to control their dimmers. So I'm assuming he means that they control them via ethernet. If I'm correct, my question to you all is what is the difference in addressing/controlling with ethernet as opposed to DMX? How does it work, etc. 

If I'm wrong, then what are they controlling with? 

Also, he said that if they do need to run DMX to a mover, or scroller they would "pull if off the network." I have no idea what that means, so if anyone can help with that as well, that would be great!

Thanks!


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## TimMiller (Mar 25, 2009)

Sounds like they are running their dimmers off of eithernet. You can network some dimmer racks just like a computer and control them. I worked at a theater in which there was absolutely no DMX ran in the building. It was all off of the lighting network. They were using an expression III with emphasis, and several sensor racks. They had a closet full of nodes that converts the eithernet from the light network, to dmx, or you could convert dmx to eithernet. They had about 60 ports scattered throughout the theater, and all of the network switching was done by a rack full of cisco switches. It was a very impressive setup. 

Much better than the college i was looking at transfering to which still uses the status cue to control their lighting


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## Jeroen (Mar 25, 2009)

TimMiller said:


> Sounds like they are running their dimmers off of eithernet. You can network some dimmer racks just like a computer and control them. I worked at a theater in which there was absolutely no DMX ran in the building. It was all off of the lighting network. They were using an expression III with emphasis, and several sensor racks. They had a closet full of nodes that converts the eithernet from the light network, to dmx, or you could convert dmx to eithernet. They had about 60 ports scattered throughout the theater, and all of the network switching was done by a rack full of cisco switches. It was a very impressive setup.
> 
> Much better than the college i was looking at transfering to which still uses the status cue to control their lighting



Ethernet has advantages in large setups, it uses a star topology and therefor easily allows several controldesks and mediaservers to be in the same network together with your dimmers, without compromising stability. Such a setup also makes it easy to control your rig from different places (like on stage from a Remote Control Unit, even a wireless PDA) and have instant backup solutions.

Ethernet is quickly becoming implemented, however dmx remains a very important protocol for all existing equipment. Therefor several dmx nodes (dmx to ethernet or viceversa) exist. You can even use dmx nodes in your trusses, so you can install ethernet wiring and connect all nodes together using ethernet and then from there go with dmx.

Several ethernet protocols exist: Avab, ART-net, MA-net, ETCnet-2, Net3/ACN... 

An example of a rack node 
Lighting solutions for Theatre, Film & Television Studios and Architectural spaces : ETC

And two port nodes
MA Lighting: Network / MIDI Converter[parent_gruppe]=223&tx_lightpowerpdb_pi1[produkt_id]=2328&cHash=a5b24e8b3d
Lighting solutions for Theatre, Film & Television Studios and Architectural spaces : ETC

Mostly for ethernet in the touring/theatre world, Ethercon is used. The Ethercon connectors are more robust then the simple RJ45 connectors, the same goes for PowerCon or Speakon...


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## KeeperoftheKeys (Mar 25, 2009)

To the best of my knowledge it is not recommended to run CAT5/6 cables in a truss, as they don't handle abuse nearly as good as DMX cables....


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## SteveB (Mar 25, 2009)

KeeperoftheKeys said:


> To the best of my knowledge it is not recommended to run CAT5/6 cables in a truss, as they don't handle abuse nearly as good as DMX cables....



There are robust Cat5 cables available, every bit as rugged as Belden DMX cable and that's different then the stuff running thru conduits. You will see lot's more of this and Ethercons down the road as ACN gets going.

Steve B.


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## icewolf08 (Mar 25, 2009)

Chances are the venue is running an ETC system and running ETCNet2 (or Net3 if they run Eos). (Could also be Strand with ShowNet, or MA lighting, or Hog, all have network protocols) ETC calls the network connection from console to dimmers EDMX. Using one of these network protocols is very efficient as you can send multiple universes worth of data down one network cable. To get real DMX out you connect a DMX Gateway Node somewhere on the network. Most of these nodes are configurable such that it can output any universe from any port on the node.

Networking like this also provides bi-directional communication. In the next release of the gateway software for ETCNet3 they will fully support RDM so that the console can talk to devices and the devices will be able to talk back. Currently though, ETC dimmers can be configured and give feedback to the console.

With the full implementation of protocols like RDM and ACN on the horizon, it is becoming much more common to network devices as opposed to running hardline DMX. Though ACN is probably a long way off, it is much better and more cost effective to lay the infrastructure now.


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## avkid (Mar 25, 2009)

KeeperoftheKeys said:


> To the best of my knowledge it is not recommended to run CAT5/6 cables in a truss, as they don't handle abuse nearly as good as DMX cables....


 Belden Mil Spec. 
They run it over with an M1 Abrams tank in the ads.


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## cupcakehitman (Mar 26, 2009)

Wow, everyone thanks! This really clears everything up!

icewolf, they use Strand boards and Strand CD80 SV dimmers.

Now, would you plug a CAT-5 directly into a compatible dimmer (like the Strand CD80, for example?) Or go board>ethernet>node>dimmer?

Thanks again!

(ps - sorry, I'm really new to lighting. I've only been learning about it for about 2 months.)


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## icewolf08 (Mar 26, 2009)

cupcakehitman said:


> Wow, everyone thanks! This really clears everything up!
> 
> icewolf, they use Strand boards and Strand CD80 SV dimmers.
> 
> ...



I am not sure if the CD80SV racks are capable of a direct ShowNet input, but it is possible. If they don't take ShowNet directly then they probably run ShowNet to an SN103 DMX node and then go DMX to the racks.


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## cdub260 (Mar 26, 2009)

cupcakehitman said:


> (ps - sorry, I'm really new to lighting. I've only been learning about it for about 2 months.)



Sorry for being new to lighting? That's a good thing. We need more new blood in the industry.

I've been learning lighting for close to 20 years and this thread has been very educational and informative for me as I've never worked with an ethernet driven lighting system.

So keep on asking those questions. You're not just helping yourself. You're also helping some of us long term inmates in the theatre asylum who've fallen behind the technology.


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## TimMiller (Mar 26, 2009)

There is not a way to network directly to the CD-80, but with an eithernet node, you can put it on the network so i'm sure thats what they did.


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## Jeroen (Mar 26, 2009)

SteveB said:


> There are robust Cat5 cables available, every bit as rugged as Belden DMX cable and that's different then the stuff running thru conduits. You will see lot's more of this and Ethercons down the road as ACN gets going.
> 
> Steve B.



That's the reason I mentioned Ethercon... indeed when using ethernet in touring applications or in trusses as a way of light data distribution, it's a very good practice to use Ethercon connectors and rugged ethernet cable other than simple UTP or FTP cable... And it's definitly Ethernet (and not Eithernet).
It's also recommended to use quality switches (Cisco, eXtreme, proprietary hardware from MA or ETC,...) and other network equipment able to handle high data troughput. If you do not tie data and power together interferention problems are less common.


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## Franklights (Mar 26, 2009)

great info - thanks!


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## JenniferWilson (Mar 27, 2009)

icewolf08 said:


> With the full implementation of protocols like RDM and ACN on the horizon, it is becoming much more common to network devices as opposed to running hardline DMX. Though ACN is probably a long way off, it is much better and more cost effective to lay the infrastructure now.



Just wanted to pop in to quickly mention Wybron's Ethernet-friendly Net IT node/gateway. It speaks DMX, RDM, ACN and ArtNet.

OK, advertisement over, carry on


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## icewolf08 (Mar 27, 2009)

JenniferWilson said:


> Just wanted to pop in to quickly mention Wybron's Ethernet-friendly Net IT node/gateway. It speaks DMX, RDM, ACN and ArtNet.
> 
> OK, advertisement over, carry on



Being aware that there are ACN compliant devices available is one thing, but right now it seems to be mostly on the control end of things and on the very expensive end of things. It seems, at least to me, that we are at least a few years out from seeing full scale ACN deployments. Sure, Eos, Ion, Element, Light Palette, and Palette consoles speak E1.31, but there are very few devices that listen. It is going to take some time before you can plug your moving lights into a Cat5 cable and have them tell your console "Hey I am here!" People are still going to be running good old DMX from network nodes for a while.


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## JD (Mar 27, 2009)

I would be shocked if the lighting world moves in any other direction other then Ethernet. Not only is it a tried and true format, it works at screaming speeds. Lets face it, on DMX we crawl at data rates way under a meg, while cat5e screams at 1ghz. It is the equivalent of over 2000 DMX universes in one wire. The best part is, if you are on the road and have a major switch or router failure, you can probably get up and running with a trip to your local Staples store! 

The problem up to now has been a lack of durable wiring components, but as you can see, this is changing. The only pitfall I can see is if manufactures start coming out with protocols that preclude the use of standard protocol Ethernet devices in an effort to sell proprietary systems. 

I do not however advocate mixing systems by integrating lighting and staging (motion control) with existing computer networks or the internet.


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## SteveB (Mar 27, 2009)

One HUGE issue as yet not dealt with, as we someday change over to ACN and away from daisy chained DMX, is the requirement for star topology Ethernet distribution. How do you get separate Cat5 runs to a half dozen ML's on a truss and 12 Pars with scrollers and a PS, plus lot's of deck mounted LED fixtures, etc... with everything requiring some sort of home run to a switch OR a distribution point. 

I expect there will be a number of companies, LEX Products, Fleenor, Pathway, among others, starting to specialize in the manufacture of robust Ethernet/Ethercon type connectors, heavier cable, truss/pipe mounted boxes for 3Com Intelliswitches, etc... Or possibly a mix/match of daisy chained RDM on XLR 5pin connectors to a point where it converts to ACN. 

Big changes coming our way, as big as the switch to DMX was 20 years ago.

Steve B.


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## jmabray (Mar 27, 2009)

icewolf08 said:


> Being aware that there are ACN compliant devices available is one thing, but right now it seems to be mostly on the control end of things and on the very expensive end of things. It seems, at least to me, that we are at least a few years out from seeing full scale ACN deployments. Sure, Eos, Ion, Element, Light Palette, and Palette consoles speak E1.31, but there are very few devices that listen. It is going to take some time before you can plug your moving lights into a Cat5 cable and have them tell your console "Hey I am here!" People are still going to be running good old DMX from network nodes for a while.



Not necessarily true. Sensor+ 3.0 code was just released. If you are running a sensor rack and upgrade to this, you get ACN functionality at your dimmer rack. Any installation of a Sensor+ rack has some sort of rudimentary network installed with it. You ought to be able to plug in your ION into that rack and speak directly to it via ACN... 

Not only is it coming, but it is here. It may be coming slower than we like, but it is rapidly approaching....


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## JD (Mar 27, 2009)

SteveB said:


> One HUGE issue as yet not dealt with, as we someday change over to ACN and away from daisy chained DMX, is the requirement for star topology Ethernet distribution. How do you get separate Cat5 runs to a half dozen ML's on a truss and 12 Pars with scrollers and a PS, plus lot's of deck mounted LED fixtures, etc... with everything requiring some sort of home run to a switch OR a distribution point.



Easy. Each device can serve as it's own hub with one or two (or more) outputs. That gives you the best of both worlds. You can daisy-chain AND jump out to star for accessories.


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## Sayen (Mar 27, 2009)

cupcakehitman said:


> Or go board>ethernet>node>dimmer?


This is probably the case, as TimMiller said above. Sometimes it's board>node>ethernet>node>dimmer.


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## SteveB (Mar 27, 2009)

JD said:


> Easy. Each device can serve as it's own hub with one or two (or more) outputs. That gives you the best of both worlds. You can daisy-chain AND jump out to star for accessories.



Until the power to the fixture, or the power supply fails, then nothing gets downstream, which is not currently a problem with daisy DMX.

And I cannot imagine the fixture manufacturers are going to want to build in reliable switches to ea. and every fixture. 

Possibly installing a pass-thru that rely's on external PoE would work. Or get some 3Com IntelliJacks in durable handy boxes on c-clamps, as distro on the truss/pipe. Probably cheaper as well and have other uses. 

SB


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## Trimble (Mar 28, 2009)

SteveB said:


> Until the power to the fixture, or the power supply fails, then nothing gets downstream, which is not currently a problem with daisy DMX.
> 
> And I cannot imagine the fixture manufacturers are going to want to build in reliable switches to ea. and every fixture.
> 
> ...



You guys all miss the best part! With ethernet technology, you would eventually have the option of using a standard wireless network transmitter-receiver to bring movers to your system, as long as the movers had wireless capability (and why not?). We don't even want to care about cables getting there-- we want to think "no cables"  AHHH I can see it now.... give them power... give them an address/network... start programming!


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## JD (Mar 28, 2009)

Trimble said:


> You guys all miss the best part! With ethernet technology, you would eventually have the option of using a standard wireless network transmitter-receiver to bring movers to your system, as long as the movers had wireless capability (and why not?). We don't even want to care about cables getting there-- we want to think "no cables"  AHHH I can see it now.... give them power... give them an address/network... start programming!




Have to admit, with Linksys (by Cisco) wireless network adapters costing no more than a good DMX cable (~$30), the concept becomes very interesting. I have some problems with the reliability of the data stream as I see these problems all the time in IT work. Still, even if you get it down to the point where you have a receiving router at the end of each truss / electric, the amount of set up wiring time saved would be dramatic. Good luck getting manufacturers to include a USB port or PCI slot on their movers


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## SteveB (Mar 29, 2009)

Trimble said:


> You guys all miss the best part! With ethernet technology, you would eventually have the option of using a standard wireless network transmitter-receiver to bring movers to your system, as long as the movers had wireless capability (and why not?). We don't even want to care about cables getting there-- we want to think "no cables"  AHHH I can see it now.... give them power... give them an address/network... start programming!



Go read the threads on the ETC forum about certain WiFi DMX systems stomping all over the radio spectrum and causing other useful devices like your $1700 Radio Remote Focus Unit to stop functioning. 

I like the idea of WiFi DMX for certain applications, like when a battery powered LED unit needs wireless DMX, but if I can hardwire, I will.

SB


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## Chris15 (Mar 29, 2009)

SteveB said:


> Until the power to the fixture, or the power supply fails, then nothing gets downstream, which is not currently a problem with daisy DMX.
> 
> And I cannot imagine the fixture manufacturers are going to want to build in reliable switches to ea. and every fixture.
> 
> ...



The PoE idea has it's own issues. To do it, you'd have to also have a PoE source in every light to power up the PoE feed to the next device. It would be an extra expense and especially towards the lower end of the market that will be problematic in making sure all the manufacturers did it. I mean look at how many currently use 3 pin "DMX" connectors...

The ethernet idea also allows for really quick and easy isolation of rings via fibre... BUT one would need to go to fibre to be getting the same distances as you can currently get on an RS485 based DMX line... This then brings certain other issues in field repairs, terminations and rugged connectors (very few of which are easily field terminable or repairable).

The 3com unit referred to does not seem to inherently support QoS which might be alright for your lighting needs, but QoS is vital for audio or other such real time applications. A 100ms delay before a light changes is unlikely to be the end of the world, losing that much audio will be noticed...

Appropriately set up, sharing a LAN is possible. Possible and advisable are not the same thing. I know of some Cobranet installs that really did not appreciate sharing a LAN. We had some incidents, which I'm not sure we ever really found the cause of, where we were losing audio that was being distributed via ethernet during the papal mass in Sydney last year.

I just don't really see lighting getting to the point that high end audio has reached whereby you can run ethernet into the amps. Amps tend to be congregated much more than lighting and so you can run a switch in the rack without such a big deal.

Fortunately the IT boys have doen much of the hard work on Ethernet for us. This like RSTP can be an easy way of adding redundancy to our systems. Economies of scale also factor...

There IS a reason why Lenovo chose to deploy a sum total of zero wireless networks for anything that mattered during the Beijing Olympics. The exceptions were things like common rooms or the like in the athletes village. Convenience played and it would not have been the end of the world if it went down... Relying on a wireless network is not neccessarily a wise move...

Oops, looks like this has progressed from reply to dissertation...


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## SteveB (Mar 29, 2009)

Chris15 said:


> The PoE idea has it's own issues. To do it, you'd have to also have a PoE source in every light to power up the PoE feed to the next device.
> 
> The 3com unit referred to does not seem to inherently support QoS which might be alright for your lighting needs,



I believe the 3Com Intellijacks pass PoE, or can have a local wall wort, thus you don't need to have PoE in every fixture/device. My thought was a cheap Intellijack like device in the fixtures, something that is simple, with in, local tap and pass thru, and that uses no power from the fixture, and can pass PoE downstream from a remote PoE switch, with some sort of limits on how many fixtures can be daisy'ed do to amperage draw, etc... similar to how scrollers are powered from a remote PS.

Hopefully the smarter folks are working on all this, otherwise ACN may be a pretty standard with few applications.

And Audio will just have to figure out their own solutions !.

Steve B.


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