# Building out from scratch



## sully151 (Aug 26, 2010)

Hello,

I am the Co-AD of a small theatre company that is building out a space from scratch. It will be small, 60-80 seats.

While my partners and I have worked in a lot of small theaters, we have never done a build out. So I am sure to have many questions.

My first is stage flooring. What are the common materials?

We will be laying it over concrete and it will need to be painted on a per show basis. Do we need a sub floor to go between the concrete and stage floor? 

All and any advice will be appreciated.


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## museav (Aug 26, 2010)

What do you see happening on stage? Will there be dance? Will you be securing set pieces to it? Do you need to be able to get floor boxes for power or audio in the stage? These types of considerations may suggest certain aspects of the stage construction.

On a more general basis, do you have an Architect and/or General Contractor involved? It may be a relatively small space but it is still a public performance space and there are going to be numerous code compliance requirements relating to accessibility, life safety, electrical, ventilation and so on. This could affect many aspects of the space and what you can do.


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## mstaylor (Aug 26, 2010)

You are going to need building permits so you are going to need plans to submit. You will need some type of decking for the stage between the concrete and the finish floor. If you aren't worried about changing the stage footprint you could put salt treated sleepers attached to the concrete and then subfloor over that. I would suggest a T&G plywood covered but masonite. Also lay foam between the sleepers to take out the hollow echo. If you want a temp stage then you could build standard risers and attach in a variety of methods, coffin locks are the best. For a temp stage you could actually buy a pro built stage that is temp that are very good. 
Whatever you do make sure you have all permits and inspections as you go. Nothing can derail a project faster than a missed inspection or waiting for permits.


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## sully151 (Aug 27, 2010)

Yes we will have a general contractor helping with the build out and will be getting all necessary permits. We are currently in a fundraising stage and trying to build capital while mounting shows at high schools, in parks and anywhere else we can.

We are basically at the point of moving forward with a space, but need to have itemized lists of everything that we will need.

I just got an email from a friend at work and the studio space is set up much like Michael suggested.

What are "salt treated sleepers"? 

I thought you couldn't get masonite anymore, is this true? if so, what is a worthy substitute?


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## DuckJordan (Aug 27, 2010)

Masonite is still very common, they don't like masonite just because of how un-green it is but you can still buy it everywhere from my knowledge.


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## MNicolai (Aug 27, 2010)

(I preface this by saying you haven't given us a lot of info on your situation. I have no idea if you're renovating a room that already exists or are extending your existing facility by knocking down some walls and expanding. With that in mind, my following suggestions may either be exactly-on-par with what you're looking for, but they could also be way off the beaten path.)

First of all, when you say that you're in the fundraising stage, is this to mean that you've already raised a reasonable chunk of money for this project or is this small-theatre-troupe code for "We've got no money at all for this but we want to know how much it will cost so that we can one day talk about actually doing it and have a general idea how much it would set us back?"

Rather than guesstimate it on your own, you should get a theatrical consultant to put together a spec for you, put that out to bid, and get bids from at least three general contractors for the cost of the project (and depending on the scope, you may need to consult various architects as well).

You'll be unhappy and it'll be a tiring process to try and do all of the legwork that a theatrical consultant is already experienced in, and they'll be able to make more educated and better decisions than you will be able to. There's even a good chance they can show you different facilities that they've worked on that are similar to your own and you can get an idea of what you'd be getting into before you'd be buying something.

I strongly discourage you from putting this off until later. Many small theatre groups prefer spending their money all at once on a sure-thing -- they don't like spending money on a consultant to do some scouting and planning, but for a project that may or may not eventually happen. To them, it's a risky investment because if the project should get axed for whatever the reason (usually because it ends up costing too much), then they'll already have money put into it that will be wasted.

However, it's very difficult to convince people to give you money "for something," when even you can't quite put your finger on how much money you'll need or what sorts of things it'll end up going towards. Invariably, however much money you'd think you'd be spending based on your own estimates won't be enough. Between permits, code compliance, and while-you're-at-it's (the things people wish they had included in the project back when they still were in a position they could change things), price tags rise higher than initial expectations.

The right consultants and contractors can help you navigate the messy obstacle course that is construction/development, and they can give you a firmer price tag. With that process comes ever-wonderful things like warranties and contracts -- things that make sure you, the customer, get what you asked for. So a few months after your facility opens when a light fixture here or there fails, the contractor covers that cost, or when something starts rusting over or _there's a huge exterior wall that was left completely uninsulated_ or _two-dozen light fixtures mounted in concrete outside your main entrance start failing and leaving rust stains all over everything_, someone's got your back. (if you couldn't tell, I'm in presently in a venue that was just built a couple years ago and we've been especially lucky that following owner-turnover we had the warranties in place and a reliable general contractor or we'd have been SOL.)

Meanwhile, if you do it all on your own, no one has your back except for you, and you fall liable for anything and everything. The best thing you can do is make some phone calls, find a good theatrical consultant and talk to them about where to start, how much they'd cost and what services they could provide, and go from there. Don't grab the first consultant you find out of the phone book -- shop around if you don't already have someone in your back pocket who you trust. For starters, get all of the right people into the same room and discuss the vision for the facility and how it will be used.


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## mstaylor (Aug 28, 2010)

Salt treated sleepers are 2x4 or wider that is treated against rot.(The green lumber) It is a barrier between the concrete and the nontreated plywood, you nail them to the floor and install the tongue and groove plywood over it, then offset the masonite joints slightly off from the T&G joints. Your GC that is helping you will know exactly what I mean. 
As suggested plan the entire project including lighting and sound power, light grid, snake locations and other theatre specific things but then also allow for the mundane things like HVAC, houselights, bathrooms and others. A large expense that gets overlooked is the cost of drape material and, tracks and install of such. (very expensive)


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## derekleffew (Aug 28, 2010)

mstaylor said:


> *Salt treated* sleepers are 2x4 or wider that is treated against rot.(The green lumber) ...


See the wiki entry PTL.


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## museav (Aug 28, 2010)

sully151 said:


> I thought you couldn't get masonite anymore, is this true? if so, what is a worthy substitute?


It seems readily available. Also note that it is often tempered masonite that is recommended for stages as it is denser, stiffer and more impact and water resistant than standard masonite.

One thing that has apparently not been addressed is if you plan to have dance as then you may want to consider either a sprung floor or a dance floor to lay on top of the permanent stage.

As someone who sometimes gets involved in these situations after the fact, whether the stage is being installed on a slab on grade or on a slab over occupied space could potentially be a factor to consider. It is most likely on grade but if you are over other space then some impact isolation integrated into the floor system might be a good idea.


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## derekleffew (Aug 29, 2010)

museav said:


> sully151 said:
> 
> 
> > I thought you couldn't get masonite anymore, is this true? if so, what is a worthy substitute?
> ...


Go to the website Masonite.com. You'll find no mention of the hardboard sheetgood, only doors. Lots of vendors sell hardboard, and many/most call it masonite when it isn't. Perhaps William H. Mason didn't properly patent or trademark the product in 1924; I don't know. But just as true Marley brand vinyl dance floor is no longer made, neither is true Masonite brand masonite.

For some substitutes that are not HDF or hardboard, see the wiki entry masonite.


avare said:


> ...Do you want a Kleenex or some Coke to refresh you? If it isn't clear, maybe a Leko will help lighten it? I won't offer a Big Mac or Whopper to sooth your stomach. If you were in Canada I could offer you an Aspirin. In the USA aspirin has a become a generic word but is still a trademark in Canada.
> Andre


/pedantic off


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## sully151 (Aug 29, 2010)

Thanks everyone for your info and knowledge. I did some googling and learned a lot more.

We are probably building out in a store front in a strip mall type shopping center. 

We are in an area that doesn't have any theatre, but a population of 300,000. Sadly, we are on our own in a lot of ways, but are receiving advice from friends at the theatre (20 miles from us) 2 of us teach at that was in the same boat as us 40 years ago.

Our budget is so crazy small, we just want to get doors open and move from there.


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