# College Decision



## mriordan (Dec 11, 2019)

Hello, My name is Megan and I am the head of sound at my High School. I am very interested in going to college for a sound design major in either theater or film. Im not sure yet. But if anyone can recommend any 4 year colleges that they went to or know of that will be great. I have looked at Ball State in Indiana and Emerson in Boston. Im also looking at Full Sail in Florida but I know very little of their programs for sound. Any guidance will help. Thank you.


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## MRW Lights (Dec 12, 2019)

First and foremost - remember that it's college. Find a program where you feel valued, safe and welcome to participate. Most of all find a college/town where you can make friends and have fun. Then... Narrow down your list to a top hits and go for campus visits. Take tours and reach out to the department for an individualized department tour. Ask to sit in on a class and meet with the sound professor or program head. It's more than a 4 year investment it's an investment in what could become your career. Have you done the shuffle at USITT or SETC and taken the shopping cart tour of programs? Definitely worth it. Find a program/town/school that you can call home and you won't go wrong.


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## mriordan (Dec 12, 2019)

Thank you. I will be sure to look around on the websites.


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## TuckerD (Dec 12, 2019)

When I was in highschool / early college I was considering majoring in lighting design. While I didn't end up making that decision I did receive some great advice from which has served me well in other areas. First: College is expensive. You should avoid debt reasonably consider schools close to you. Second: there are very very few lighting design programs in the US from which you can succeed by name recognition. At the time I think I was given 3-4 universities who had such important art programs that there was a realizable difference between going to those schools and going to any other. Outside of these kinds of schools, college is what you make of it. It doesn't matter very much where you go, as long as you work hard, have passion for your studies, and do some networking when possible (it's easy! Send emails) you can succeed from anywhere. Focus on things like @MRW Lights suggested. Do you feel safe in this program? Do you like the professors, environment? Do they have facilities and tools that you would be excited to work with? If you have those things then you have the power to make your college education as good as one you could get anywhere else.


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## macsound (Dec 12, 2019)

Echoing the above about networking. Also, choosing a school that's close to places where you can get experience is useful. If you can meet people who work at theme parks, casinos, theatres, churches or conference venues, you'll have one leg in the door when you're ready to work fulltime. If you go to college in a town with no entertainment industry, it'll be tough to meet people who have influence. 

I also had a friend who went to UCLA and wasn't a theatre major. But the extracurricular theatre system was fantastic. He ended up designing 3-4 shows a year and producing 1-2. Incredible experience but completely unrelated to the actual "college curriculum."


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## Lalaith (Jan 10, 2020)

Agreed, finding a place where you are comfortable and safe and can get a jumping-off point for potential careers is priority. I also applied to different places for theater tech and/or film just a year ago. 
When I was applying, I found that a lot of programs had interviews, either as requirements or as options. In interviews, remember that you can ask them questions too. Find out as much as you can, you are shopping for them just as much as they are shopping for you. And go on tours! Getting a visual is really helpful.

Emerson is great, I would also advise taking a peak at SUNY Purchase(State University of New York), DePaul(Chicago), and Boston University. I myself ended up at BU, and I've just had my first semester there. We have a wonderful, but intense theater tech program, including Sound Design. The facilities are fantastic, and I was able to find a great extra-curricular work-study that is is all about setting up and running event technology. BU also has a good School of Communications.

Shameless plug, I plan to be putting more videos specifically about the School of Theater on my YouTube channel that chronicles my experience at BU. There are already a few SOT things there, but I've only had one semester so far after all.

But in the end, have confidence in yourself and make a decision that is right for you. Put time and energy into the application process, and the right place will reveal itself. May the Force Be with You!


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## egilson1 (Jan 11, 2020)

If you can, visit the schools you want to apply too. Experience them for yourself. This may be the greatest way to help you make your decision. 

Disclaimer, I went to Emerson.


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## Darin (Jan 12, 2020)

I just attended the Ohio Unified Auditions and Portfolio Review yesterday (as a professor), so I've seen both sides of the college selection process. I'm happy to answer any questions about what the colleges are looking for when it comes to campus visits, interviews, etc.


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## Footer (Jan 12, 2020)

mriordan said:


> Hello, My name is Megan and I am the head of sound at my High School. I am very interested in going to college for a sound design major in either theater or film. Im not sure yet. But if anyone can recommend any 4 year colleges that they went to or know of that will be great. I have looked at Ball State in Indiana and Emerson in Boston. Im also looking at Full Sail in Florida but I know very little of their programs for sound. Any guidance will help. Thank you.



What year are you in school? Does your school participate in the all-state theatre festival? If so, hit those auditions and hit them hard. 

I'd also throw in a mention of Webster in St. Louis. Its the only sound design program I know of where graduates are actually working in sound design. Most college sound design programs are the red headed bastard child of the program.

I'd also warn you a bit about what "real" sound design looks like in both academia and the real world. For musicals, its about what you are probably doing now. Placing speakers/mics, mixing shows, etc. For theatre, its a totally different ballgame. You basically become the composer for the show. In order to train you for that expect to spend half your time in college as basically a music major. Music theory classes and probably an instrument will be in your future. This training will also help you mix musicals as well. I have a friend who is an A2 and subbing for A1's on Broadway who has a music degree, spent 10 years working in an audio shop while musical directing a various community theaters before he got picked up for his first broadway tour. The music background is extremely useful in the real world. 

Ask yourself what you want to do when you graduate and then we can help guide you. What kind of program you end up in or if you should even go to college will be guided by that.


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## josh88 (Jan 12, 2020)

Emerson's program really is fantastic, they've done a lot of new things to expand it even more in the last few years.

I've worked on a couple of BU shows, I suppose they are an option


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## gafftaper (Jan 24, 2020)

@mriordan Sorry about the delay in responding. 

First read the two threads that are pinned at the top of the CB Education forum: "Getting a job in the industry" and "FAQ Recommendations about college education". There is a ton of information there that we created just for people like you. I encourage you to take "Getting a Job in the industry" and share it with an adult who knows you well and whose opinion you trust. Have them read it and discuss it with them. There are a lot of great things about careers 

Second. DO NOT GET MORE EDUCATION THAN YOU CAN AFFORD! In this industry, an expensive diploma is NOT a golden ticket to a magic career. A cheap diploma with a lot of hands on work in a community theater or working in a rental shop or something can be more valuable. By the time you are 30 no one will ever ask what university you went to or what your degree was. They will want to know who you have worked for and what the quality of work you did there. The community is very small and there is a good chance your new employer will know your old employer and the most important part of the job application will be your references and the phone call made to find out if you are a good employee. Secondly, it's HARD to put together a career that makes money. You are likely going to have to work a lot of different gigs and be "on the bounce" for the first 10 years of your career. Paying off student loans is really hard to do in that environment. I have a friend who spent a lot of money on his college degree and couldn't afford to work in theater because he couldn't afford the student loan payment. So he has never worked in theater. 

Third. Gaff's rule of three in tech careers. There are three forces that effect your ability to get a job:
1) Your Education
2) Your hard work and experience
3) Who you know and random luck

You can have a lovely career in tech without EVER getting a degree. It requires a LOT more luck and hard work. But it's possible. You can start a career without knowing anyone and without having any practical experience... but you better have a diploma that's gold plated. There is no magic solution. So I always recommend that you pick a theater program where you will get the most hands on experience. Better yet a program in a city where you can do a lot of extra stuff outside of school. Here in the northwest I encourage people to consider University of Southern Oregon, it's a small town college with a GIANT Shakespeare festival. Tech students all get tons of experience working on the festival. 

Watch out for the size of the program. Giant programs may be really hard for you to get any real experience... the seniors do all the design work. A small college may not have enough budget to do cool stuff. So I suggest a medium sized college where you will be needed and get your hands on the gear right away, but big enough that they do lots of cool stuff. 

Finally Full Sail... This is a touchy subject. There are people around here who went to Full Sail, loved it, and have great careers now. There are also people around here who will not hire anyone from Full Sail. There is a group of people in the industry who believe it's basically a diploma factory where they sell you a degree regardless of if you know anything. Is it a good education? I don't know I haven't been there and haven't worked with anyone who has been. I know people here on CB who say it's great and they learned a lot, but there is absolutely a group of people in the industry who will throw away your application if you are fresh out of Full Sail. That said, once you get that first job and impress someone with 5 years of work, no one will care if you went to Full Sail. 

As was said above tell us more about what you really want to do and we can give you more specific advice.


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## Ben Stiegler (Jan 24, 2020)

I'm the alumni admissions program board co-chair for Carleton College, where I focused academically on neurophysiology, but spent the majority of my happy time as the student technical director, LD, sound designer (sans composing chops), and all around electronics guru in the 70s. My career has included research, software engineering, founding a company ...but always my theater/concert/radio tech path on the side.

At Carleton and many similar places, there are many more student-run productions than "official" department directed ones. Then and today, the ratio is maybe 4 or 5 to one each term. And ... you could take on as huge a role as you liked withou5 being a theater major. I took full advantage of this, and served both official and "student devised" productions. My daughter is following a similar path, as a linguistics major who has become the go to lighting person and stage manager on her campus. Be sure to talk to students, too, when you visit campuses or peruse their student newspapers online about the non-drama dept opportunities. Be bold ... if you see a listing or a poster for a student-run show, be a bit of an investigative reporter ... hunt down the director and TD in person, or on social media. Ask tons of questions. You will learn more from talking to students and recent grads than from the nice glossy brochures and websites which can frankly start to blur into an undifferentiated mass after a while.

I also mentor HS students here in NorCal for theater sound. I always encourage them to apply for summer jobs in community or teaching theaters. The pay will suck, you might not break even with your commute costs, but you will gain incredible experience in working at a different level of theater than what your HS offers. You may be a deck hand, a follow spot operator, an A2 in charge of wireless mics ... whatever, you will learn a ton and make valuable connections in your region. Many of your co workers will be theater college students ... exactly the folks you want to talk to, anyway! Now is the season to apply.

Finally, good luck! Don't give up on your dream when you meet an obstacle, and remember you have this community right here to lean on.

ben


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## chawalang (Jan 24, 2020)

Have you looked into any trade schools? Two years programs? I have an MFA but also understand that in today’s world an undergraduate degree is not the only way to get where you want in our business. I believe John Huntington was compiling a list of entertainment technology trade programs. I know he can be found on this forum.


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## What Rigger? (Jan 26, 2020)

For what it's worth, out here in my neck of the woods in LA/SoCal, Full Sail is not looked upon favorably and could even work against a persons prospects. Other's results and opinions may vary.


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## chawalang (Jan 26, 2020)

I have to second the sentiment about Full Sail. I have known a few people who went there who had issues getting work once they were done. Mainly because they had Full Sail on their resume. Also, you will go into 100k+ debt for an associates there. In my opinion going into that kind of debt to go into our industry is insane. The only people who should be going into that kind of debt are Medical Doctors and Lawyers.


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## TimMc (Jan 27, 2020)

What Rigger? said:


> For what it's worth, out here in my neck of the woods in LA/SoCal, Full Sail is not looked upon favorably and could even work against a persons prospects. Other's results and opinions may vary.


The only successful graduates of Empty Sheet that I know and are working in the crafts NEVER mention where they got that bit of education. Both were highly motivated and probably knew more going in than some of their fellow students left with.

I get resumes from Empty Sheet grads, replete with spelling and grammatical errors that make me cringe. Most of those get placed in the round filing cabinet... But a quick little story of one hapless job applicant that got an interview with me and my boss. The applicant had a salary request that was higher than my compensation and was unable to demonstrate to our satisfaction, sufficient competence that would make the applicant a *fiscally productive member of our crew.* After failing to correctly or completely answer a number of technical and artistic questions we were asked "what do I need to know to get a job here?" My answer: "I take 2 creams in my coffee and the brooms are over there...." The applicant and we decided that employment was unlikely.


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## RonHebbard (Jan 31, 2020)

TimMc said:


> The only successful graduates of Empty Sheet that I know and are working in the crafts NEVER mention where they got that bit of education. Both were highly motivated and probably knew more going in than some of their fellow students left with.
> 
> I get resumes from Empty Sheet grads, replete with spelling and grammatical errors that make me cringe. Most of those get placed in the round filing cabinet... But a quick little story of one hapless job applicant that got an interview with me and my boss. The applicant had a salary request that was higher than my compensation and was unable to demonstrate to our satisfaction, sufficient competence that would make the applicant a *fiscally productive member of our crew.* After failing to correctly or completely answer a number of technical and artistic questions we were asked "what do I need to know to get a job here?" My answer: "I take 2 creams in my coffee and the brooms are over there...." The applicant and we decided that employment was unlikely.


 *@TimMc* I LOVE IT when you nail it with nary a hint of a curse. 
Toodleoo! 
Ron Hebbard


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## josh88 (Jan 31, 2020)

What Rigger? said:


> For what it's worth, out here in my neck of the woods in LA/SoCal, Full Sail is not looked upon favorably and could even work against a persons prospects. Other's results and opinions may vary.


I haven't honestly been anywhere that looks favorably on Full Sail. When I was in New England and now back in the midwest, the opinion is pretty low. I've had a couple of students go there and they're doing well but they also are real dedicated and actually learned while working on the side. Most of the grads I've experienced have an attitude and have gaps. They just rush people through the program and churn people out.


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## TimMc (Feb 3, 2020)

josh88 said:


> I haven't honestly been anywhere that looks favorably on Full Sail. When I was in New England and now back in the midwest, the opinion is pretty low. I've had a couple of students go there and they're doing well but they also are real dedicated and actually learned while working on the side. Most of the grads I've experienced have an attitude and have gaps. They just rush people through the program and churn people out.


A decade or so back I attended Robert Scovil's Complete FOH Engineer seminar, that year held at the Convervatory of Recording Arts and Sciences (CRAS) in Gilbert, AZ. I got to observe the students and it was obvious that some of them were spending Daddy's Money for a "hip" education. Others were there for the long ride and spent their time in studio or in live work when not in class. I'm sure those are the students that did well (and the same would go for Empty Sheet)... but when I'm asked I always suggest CRAS as worthy of a look-see.

Scovil has mixed and recorded many "bands you've heard of" like Tom Petty, RUSH, Matchbox 20.... and he's part of Avid's concept team for their consoles and infrastructure.


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## josh88 (Feb 3, 2020)

TimMc said:


> A decade or so back I attended Robert Scovil's Complete FOH Engineer seminar, that year held at the Convervatory of Recording Arts and Sciences (CRAS)



I will say I've only encountered 2 or maybe 3 Cras grads so far so the ratio may be skewed, but they were all fantastic and painted a good picture of the school. I suppose its true of any school and any degree that the people who put the work in will come out of even shitty programs, better off than someone who coasted through and didn't apply themselves at a better school.


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## TimMc (Feb 3, 2020)

josh88 said:


> I will say I've only encountered 2 or maybe 3 Cras grads so far so the ratio may be skewed, but they were all fantastic and painted a good picture of the school. I suppose its true of any school and any degree that the people who put the work in will come out of even shitty programs, better off than someone who coasted through and didn't apply themselves at a better school.


Over all the CRAS students I observed seemed pretty good. The students wearing t-shirts for bands that ended their careers before the birth of those students was kind of the giveaway to terminal hip-ness. Mostly those were the ones who were planning a party or other non-production activities for evenings and weekends. Normally that would have been my clue, but then I'd overhear a reply like "gee, that sounds like fun, pounding beers and vegetating, but I was able to book another half hour in the mixing suite and my buddy's band wants me to come and mix their live set tonight, maybe next week?" I suspect there is a higher percentage of those students at CRAS.


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