# Licensed, Certified, Qualified



## derekleffew (Jan 10, 2010)

I see these terms misused and abused here frequently, so thought a discussion thread might be justified.

*Licensed:*
An individual or company has training and demonstrated proficiency and has been authorized by a government agency to perform specific work.
Electricians (_real_ electricians, not stage lighting folk) and Contractors are licensed by the state. Pyrotechnicians must be licensed by the state and federal ATF.

*Certified:*
Similar to above, but permission is granted by a private agency.
ETCP-Certified Rigger-Theatre, ETCP-Certified Rigger-Arena, ETCP-Certified Rigger-Entertainment Electrician
Receiving a Certificate of Attendance for a training course does not make one Certified. The quality of the certification depends largely upon the body issuing it.
*
Qualified:*
NFPA 70 (NEC) defines a Qualified Person as "One who has skills and knowledge related to the construction and operation of the electrical equipment and installations and has received safety training to recognize and avoid the hazards involved."
*
Competent Person: *
An OSHA term: "The term "Competent Person" is used in many OSHA standards and documents. An OSHA "competent person" is defined as "one who is capable of identifying existing and predictable hazards in the surroundings or working conditions which are unsanitary, hazardous, or dangerous to employees, and who has authorization to take prompt corrective measures to eliminate them"."


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## MNicolai (Jan 10, 2010)

Let's not forget that anyone who says their a sound engineer, isn't an engineer. Though one of our members here is actually a licensed acoustical engineer.

What's the story on riggers? ETCP provides certifications, but who can say they are a rigger? Can I say I'm a rigger or is there some variety of test or achievement you have to pass?

I think of nutritionists a lot. Anyone can call themselves a nutritionist -- there's nothing required to be a nutritionist so if you ever pay anyone to be your nutritionist, you're basically paying for their opinion. To be a dietitian though, you do actually need to me some qualifications and there is a standard for that.


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## mstaylor (Jan 10, 2010)

ETCP requires a certain knowledge/experience base before you can test at all. If you are an ETCP certified rigger, then you certainly are a rigger. I am an experienced arena rigger with a fair amount of training and a ton of practical experience. I have rigged portions of the last five presidential inaugurals, many national tours and TV shoots but I haven't yet tried for my actual certification. 
I am qualified and competent but not certified.


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## MNicolai (Jan 10, 2010)

mstaylor said:


> ETCP requires a certain knowledge/experience base before you can test at all. If you are an ETCP certified rigger, then you certainly are a rigger. I am an experienced arena rigger with a fair amount of training and a ton of practical experience. I have rigged portions of the last five presidential inaugurals, many national tours and TV shoots but I haven't yet tried for my actual certification.
> I am qualified and competent but not certified.



What determines that you're qualified and competent though? What makes _you_ different than _me_, someone who doesn't even claim to be qualified or competent in rigging? Is it like graduating college where one day you're a student and the next you're a professional, or is it a progression you've made over several years starting off as ____(?) and ending up as a rigger? Certainly you didn't wake up one day and say to yourself, "I'm a rigger," and then that was suddenly the case.


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## Footer (Jan 10, 2010)

ETCP has fought pretty hard to make their certs stick. In some markets they are really doing well and making them stand out. In other markets, such as education, few if any people know anything about ETCP. In my last job hunt I had 2 places ask about ETCP. I brought it up to another 4 (I was studying at the time for it) and non of them had any idea what I was talking about. Therefore, if I was certified and interviewing there they would not have cared. 

ETCP is a big step in our industry and over time will really make an impact. 

To me, the "qualified" thing is a resume' and reference thing. Other people decide when you are qualified or competent. 

I have been MIG welding for a good amount of time. My welds have flown people and have traveled accross the country numerous times. I am not a certified or licensed welder. However, enough people have hired me to make me qualified to weld. I have a portfolio to back me up as well as multiple people who can say I can do what I say I can do.


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## Lotos (Jan 10, 2010)

MNicolai said:


> What determines that you're qualified and competent though?


 
Ahh... How does one measure one's worth? 

Personally, when it comes to competency, and qualification... I will often take a persons word on the subject.
If I hired you, there was a reason. Someone passed me your name when I was looking for techs, or I read your resume, or perhaps I worked with you elsewhere...
Once you're on deck in my space, I better trust that when you say you can do something, you're being honest.
I'll check your lift and fall arrest certifications, but beyond that... Who's to say how well you actually can hang and focus a light?

If you tell me you're capable at something. I will let you give it a shot... If you turn out to have been over speaking your abilities... You can bet I'll remember that.
If I catch you hanging lights without safeties or making suicide adapters (M -> M)... You'll be sitting this one out, I'm sorry you planned to be with me getting paid for the week.

As for something more demanding, like rigging... There's no way I'd hire you sight unseen, unless your resume knocked me off my feet... (And let's face it, with what I'm paying, that's not going to happen...) I pull my riggers from crew I know and trust... Because at the end of the day, my life and several other peoples, may be in your hand. I need to know you can do the job, safely, and when you can't, you'll let me know.


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## mstaylor (Jan 10, 2010)

MNicolai said:


> What determines that you're qualified and competent though? What makes _you_ different than _me_, someone who doesn't even claim to be qualified or competent in rigging? Is it like graduating college where one day you're a student and the next you're a professional, or is it a progression you've made over several years starting off as ____(?) and ending up as a rigger? Certainly you didn't wake up one day and say to yourself, "I'm a rigger," and then that was suddenly the case.


Qualified because of the classes I have taken and the experience in the field. Competent because of two things:
1. For the same reasons the makes me qualified.
2. I also have been trained as a "competent person" in the eyes of OSHA. 
When we are working and something can't follow OSHA regs exactly, that certification permits me decide on the course of action to make it as safe as possible.


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## cdub260 (Jan 11, 2010)

An important and often overlooked aspect of competency is knowing when you are not qualified to perform a given task. There have been several times over the last decade that I have had to tell my employer that I was not qualified to do an installation and that we needed to bring someone else in to do the job. Whenever it's been practical to do so, I have learned from the outside professionals we've brought in, watching what they do, asking questions, and generally picking their brains, even asking them to evaluate installations I've done to see if they had any advice on how I could have done better. To date, all of those evaluations have been very complimentary in regards to the quality of my work, and when they have made recommendations on improvements, I've incorporated those improvements into my work at the earliest opportunity.

Then there's the issue of maintaining your qualifications. It's not enough to just do the job based on your education from however many years ago and your experience since then. I'm always on the lookout for opportunities for furthering my education to maintain my status as a qualified individual. Two obvious sources for continuing education for our industry are the seminars offered at LDI and USITT. Another resource I use for my continued education is the Electric West conference. I go to that one ever three years, when the NEC is updated, in order to keep up with changes in the electrical code. Granted, it's not specific to our industry, but still very informative about changes I need to make in my work practices and use of PPE. Another excellent resource for continuing education in the electrical world is Mike Holt Enterprises. I have learned a lot from his seminars and reference material. Also, the continuing education helps to keep the knowledge fresh in your mind so you're not trying to remember lessons from twenty years ago but rather, lessons from two years ago.


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## museav (Jan 11, 2010)

derekleffew said:


> I see these terms misused and abused here frequently, so thought a discussion thread might be justified.
> 
> *Licensed:*
> An individual or company has training and demonstrated proficiency and has been authorized by a government agency to perform specific work.
> ...


 
I would alter the definition of "Certified" a bit as a) it is not necessarily an authorization, b) it can be issued by a manufacturer or other entity and c) a course may make one certified. It really is a broad area and perhaps needs to be broken into Professional/Industry Certification and Product/Manufacturer certification. A certification in general is simply saying that someone has demonstrated a defined level of proficiency. The example that stands out is that some manufacturers require certification on certain products before one can sell, install or service them. That is different than Professional/Industry certification that typically is broader in scope and requirements.

One other big difference between a certification and a license is that a certification says that you have demonstrated a level of competency but does not necessarily imply any obligation to apply it or to assume specific liability for the work. It unfortunately sometimes means one should know better and not that they'll necessarily do better. A license says not only that you have demonstrated a level of proficiency but also that you are legally bound to apply it, or at least 'industry standard practice', and to assume liability for your work and actions.



MNicolai said:


> Let's not forget that anyone who says their a sound engineer, isn't an engineer. Though one of our members here is actually a licensed acoustical engineer.


That would be me and this actually varies from state to state. In some states, such as here in Georgia, one can use the title Engineer in relation to facility or systems operations without being licensed. Other states may have different laws relating to the title Engineer and terms Engineering and Engineered. So a person running a sound system could be an Audio Engineer here but they could not provide Engineering services or be an Engineer in relation to providing the design or installation of those systems unless appropriately licensed. However, some other states may outright limit the title in any use to a properly licensed Professional Engineer.


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## BrianWolfe (Jan 12, 2010)

Thanks for this very interesting thread. I am a NY state certified welder, which means I was able to pass a test to a certain standard. That is useful information for a prospective employer or customer. But if I have not held a torch in 10 years the information is somewhat out of date and the certification is a little misleading.
I love hearing young people tell me how qualified they are. Until you have been around a while you don't know what you don't know. A truly qualified person can let their work, customers and employers speak for them. Recent qualitfications by reputable boards are just another useful indicator of a person's possible strengths. The proof is always in the pudding.


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## GreyWyvern (Jan 12, 2010)

BrianWolfe said:


> Thanks for this very interesting thread. I am a NY state certified welder, which means I was able to pass a test to a certain standard. That is useful information for a prospective employer or customer. But if I have not held a torch in 10 years the information is somewhat out of date and the certification is a little misleading.
> I love hearing young people tell me how qualified they are. Until you have been around a while you don't know what you don't know. A truly qualified person can let their work, customers and employers speak for them. Recent qualitfications by reputable boards are just another useful indicator of a person's possible strengths. The proof is always in the pudding.



Very well said. When you don't use a skill for long enough, you can lose it even though you are still "certified".


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## museav (Jan 12, 2010)

BrianWolfe said:


> Until you have been around a while you don't know what you don't know.


Definitely! Years ago I thought I was an expert, however my knowledge now is immensely improved from then while at the same time I feel that there is also much more than ever that I do not know.


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## Footer (Jan 13, 2010)

GreyWyvern said:


> Very well said. When you don't use a skill for long enough, you can lose it even though you are still "certified".



My father is a private pilot. He got his License back in the mid 80's. He has not flown for 15 years. However, you are licensed for life with the FAA. All he has to do it get a medical checkup and attend 1 hour of ground school and 1 hour of time with an instructor in the air and he can fly again. 

Now... thats scary. 

This is the reason why ETCP certs expire after 5 (?) years. It is also the reason why you still have to earn points to get re-certified.


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## museav (Jan 14, 2010)

Footer said:


> This is the reason why ETCP certs expire after 5 (?) years. It is also the reason why you still have to earn points to get re-certified.


It is also why Professional Engineering registrations typically require annual or semi-annual renewal including a minimum number of hours of relevant continuing education. Even InfoComm CTS certifications require periodic renewal along with proof of fulfilling the required continuing education requirements.

In comparison, the last time I had to do anything to prove any competency in driving a car was when I got my license some rather large number of years ago and the last time I renewed my license I was able to renew it online for 10 years, which will probably happen again the next time it's due to be renewed.


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## mstaylor (Jan 17, 2010)

I am like Brian, I was a certified welder, used to to do high pressure steam pipe installation, but haven't struck an arc in at least 15 yrs. With all the certifications I have recieved over the years, it doesn't mean I'm a master of anything. I am in constant search of knowledge to further my professional worth. My Dad taught me to always learn, when you don't think you need to learn, quit.


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## derekleffew (Mar 21, 2010)

museav said:


> I would alter the definition of "Certified" a bit as a) it is not necessarily an authorization, b) it can be issued by a manufacturer or other entity and c) a course may make one certified. It really is a broad area and perhaps needs to be broken into Professional/Industry Certification and Product/Manufacturer certification. A certification in general is simply saying that someone has demonstrated a defined level of proficiency. The example that stands out is that some manufacturers require certification on certain products before one can sell, install or service them. ...



Good point, but one that further muddies the waters. By attending a class, one may receive a Certificate of Attendance, but this does not necessary mean than an individual is "Certified." Courses offered by Martin and Vari-Lite come immediately to mind. I don't think there's any such thing as a "Certified Moving Lights Technician."

Perhaps we also need to add *Authorized* to the mix? As well as a requirement to list *who* issued the authorization. Not a bad idea for any of the above: _ETCP-Certified_ Rigger, _state-licensed_ electrician, _board-certified_ proctologist/monitor engineer, etc.


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## cdub260 (Mar 21, 2010)

Authorization is generally given by the employer. The requirements for an individual to be authorized to perform a task will vary extensively from employer to employer and task to task. Additionally, one's qualifications for a given task may have little or no bearing on whether that person is authorized. For instance, an IBEW journeyman electrician may be more qualified than the house ME to rewire an electrical panel in the building but unless granted permission by the management of the theatre to work on the panel, that person is not authorized to do so.


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## museav (Mar 28, 2010)

derekleffew said:


> Good point, but one that further muddies the waters. By attending a class, one may receive a Certificate of Attendance, but this does not necessary mean than an individual is "Certified." Courses offered by Martin and Vari-Lite come immediately to mind. I don't think there's any such thing as a "Certified Moving Lights Technician."


I have a stack of certificates stating that I am "certified" for specific equipment or software (some of them long obsolete) and in specific cases you may even have to be manufacturer "certified" before you can sell certain equipment or obtain access to some resources. Some of these certifications do indeed relate to simply successfully completing a class, however some include passing some sort of test while others add requirements for hands-on experience, but they are manufacturer Certifications. For example, there are such things as certified AMX and Crestron programmers and my specifications require any programmers for those systems to be manufacturer certified. The MSCE may be the best example of this situation, some people treat it much like a degree and it is often a requirement for related employment yet it is actually a manufacturer certification.


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## bobcov (May 14, 2013)

MNicolai said:


> Let's not forget that anyone who says their a sound engineer, isn't an engineer. Though one of our members here is actually a licensed acoustical engineer.



What exactly are the mechanics of becoming a licensed acoustical engineer? In the STate of California, what department issues that license and on what basis? Anybody know?


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## MNicolai (May 14, 2013)

bobcov said:


> What exactly are the mechanics of becoming a licensed acoustical engineer? In the STate of California, what department issues that license and on what basis? Anybody know?



museav does. IIRC, he obtains his licensure through the state of Washington though as his home state of Georgia doesn't offer it. My understanding is that it's not a widely offered licensure and depending on which industry you're in, it can mean a whole slew of different things to different people.


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## BillConnerFASTC (May 14, 2013)

Being certificated - meaning having a certificate - is not the same as certified. Google "certified vs certificated" and you get a lot.

And throw registered into this - as building codes and much legislation refer to "registered design professional", not architect or engineer. There are quite a few steps and measures both before registering and while registered to maintain it, which is different from being licensed. Lets face it, any mope that can pass a driver's test gets a license. Not so easy for an architect or engineer to become and stay registered.


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## church (May 14, 2013)

BillConnerASTC said:


> Being certificated - meaning having a certificate - is not the same as certified. Google "certified vs certificated" and you get a lot.
> 
> And throw registered into this - as building codes and much legislation refer to "registered design professional", not architect or engineer. There are quite a few steps and measures both before registering and while registered to maintain it, which is different from being licensed. Lets face it, any mope that can pass a driver's test gets a license. Not so easy for an architect or engineer to become and stay registered.



Reading this thread actually makes me grateful that here in Canada every province has legislation that makes it clear who is licenced to do the work when it comes to trades and professions. It is restrictive but it certainly clears up the confusion real fast - you either have the required licence or you don't. The provincial apprenticeship office issues the trade licences and the self governing professions issue professional licences all done with the backing of provincial legislation.


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## ManowarKill (May 15, 2013)

Its a touchy subject over here too...Im doin this near 20 yrs n Id like to think I'm "qualified"...although I dont have any letters after my name to say so...plenty of bruises and scars though!


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## museav (May 15, 2013)

MNicolai said:


> museav does. IIRC, he obtains his licensure through the state of Washington though as his home state of Georgia doesn't offer it. My understanding is that it's not a widely offered licensure and depending on which industry you're in, it can mean a whole slew of different things to different people.


Generally correct other than the registration is in Oregon rather than Washington. Some people have apparently successfully lobbied for reciprocity in other states, however many/most states refuse to consider that if they do not offer a similar license.

FWIW, obtaining my PE involved A) an accredited Engineering degree (BSE or equivalent), B) passing the 8 hour EIT (now Fundamentals of Engineering) exam, C) a minimum of four years of documented relevant experience under the direct supervision of qualified parties (e.g. a registered Engineer) and D) passing an 8 hour licensing exam. Most states have similar requirements and also allow tradeoffs, for example less education or no EIT/FE may be able to be offset by additional relevant experience, but there are just about always some experience and licensing exam aspects involved.

Added: I should also note that maintaining a PE requires ongoing related continuing education. Last year I was audited and had to provide backing documentation for all related education claimed, if I could not have done so my license would have been suspended and I may have been fined. Some states require documentation of the associated continuing education every time a licensed professional renews their license.

The reality is that many licensed engineering and architecture professionals avoid offering actual "Engineering" or "Architectural" services unless it is required as not only are there related legal issues related to having to be registered where such services are offered or provided but there is also a significant potential associated liability. I believe this becomes more relevant as our industries try to develop 'standards' as that can then potentially create a legal obligation for related Engineers to apply such 'industry standard practices' regardless of the budget, Owner's wishes and so on or possibly be liable for not doing so.


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## museav (May 15, 2013)

ManowarKill said:


> Its a touchy subject over here too...Im doin this near 20 yrs n Id like to think I'm "qualified"...although I dont have any letters after my name to say so...plenty of bruises and scars though!


I'm going on 30 years professionally, more than that if you count experience while still in school, and some of the most qualified people I've worked with over the years have no professional or industry certifications. I've also worked with licensed PEs, AIAs, ASIDs, etc. and industry certified professionals who may have been qualified in some areas but had no idea what they were doing when I worked with them. But actual professional licensing does typically imply some legal liability for the related work, something that may not exist otherwise.


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