# Yamaha LS9 32 Question



## Christof (Jan 5, 2014)

Hey guys,
New to the forum and also new to digital sound boards

I run a Yamaha LS9-32 for a church and have a question about it. I have a drumset with 7 mics to it through 7 input channels. What I would litk to do is be able to control the total volume with one fader, preferably #8. I would like to run it through an omni out back through channel 8 and control it that way. How exactly do I go about doing that?

Thanks a million for any guidance,
Chris


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## Footer (Jan 5, 2014)

You could just skip the whole taking it out of the console and back in which will mess with your gain structure and latency and just put those channels on a DCA or sub group.


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## DaveySimps (Jan 5, 2014)

Footer said:


> You could just skip the whole taking it out of the console and back in which will mess with your gain structure and latency and just put those channels on a DCA or sub group.



The LS9 has neither DCA nor subgroups.


You could send the channels to an aux send (post fader) and NOT route them to your mains. Plug the omni out of that aux into channel 8, and route that to your main outs.

Alternatively, you could also link all of the channels together. It makes mixing individual channels more tedious, but could be an option depending on your need to adjust them often.

~Dave


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## themuzicman (Jan 5, 2014)

Footer said:


> You could just skip the whole taking it out of the console and back in which will mess with your gain structure and latency and just put those channels on a DCA or sub group.



The LS9 doesn't have DCA's or sub groups (in the traditional analog sense of a sub-group). The Yamaha terminology for both a sub-group and/or an auxiliary output is MIX which can be a non-outputting bus as an intermediary processing layer that then gets assigned to the Matrix or a Mix can be an auxiliary output that functions as something like a monitor send. It can also be both if you need it to be both a group and an outputting aux. 

What he could is send them all to a mix, and use a mix as a sub group. It won't be on Input 8, but it would have one physical handle that appears on its assigned mix in the MASTER layer. If he wanted to get the physical handle on the first layer with the rest of his stuff, he could actually use his original suggestion and assign them all to a random mix, assign that mix to a given omni out, and then jump that omni out into input 8, and then assign that input to the correct output channels as a loop-back. Or he could just use the CUSTOM FADER layer and assign any number of inputs, mixes, and matrices on a single combined layer.

Honestly, just making a drum mix is your easiest solution, assuming your mains are stem'd off of matrix outputs, that way you can assign as much, or as little, drum kit (as a whole) to your mains and then have individual drum control to the monitors assuming your monitors are each a discreet mix functioning as an aux output.


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## Footer (Jan 5, 2014)

DaveySimps said:


> The LS9 has neither DCA nor subgroups.



Really? Could have sworn it did, but it has been a few years since I have had the "pleasure" of working on one of those things.


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## AudJ (Jan 5, 2014)

themuzicman said:


> The LS9 doesn't have DCA's or sub groups (in the traditional analog sense of a sub-group). The Yamaha terminology for both a sub-group and/or an auxiliary output is MIX which can be a non-outputting bus as an intermediary processing layer that then gets assigned to the Matrix or a Mix can be an auxiliary output that functions as something like a monitor send. It can also be both if you need it to be both a group and an outputting aux.
> 
> What he could is send them all to a mix, and use a mix as a sub group. It won't be on Input 8, but it would have one physical handle that appears on its assigned mix in the MASTER layer. If he wanted to get the physical handle on the first layer with the rest of his stuff, he could actually use his original suggestion and assign them all to a random mix, assign that mix to a given omni out, and then jump that omni out into input 8, and then assign that input to the correct output channels as a loop-back. Or he could just use the CUSTOM FADER layer and assign any number of inputs, mixes, and matrices on a single combined layer.
> 
> Honestly, just making a drum mix is your easiest solution, assuming your mains are stem'd off of matrix outputs, that way you can assign as much, or as little, drum kit (as a whole) to your mains and then have individual drum control to the monitors assuming your monitors are each a discreet mix functioning as an aux output.


+1 
Try creating a custom fader level that has everything you want handy.


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## BobHealey (Jan 6, 2014)

Each loop in and out of a DSP adds latency to the signal. Might not be an issue for you, but D/A and A/D conversions do add up at all the little points they can occur. I'd try to avoid doing a console loop back just to not have that extra couple ms latency in there.


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## howlingwolf487 (Jan 6, 2014)

Christof said:


> Hey guys,
> New to the forum and also new to digital sound boards
> 
> I run a Yamaha LS9-32 for a church and have a question about it. I have a drumset with 7 mics to it through 7 input channels. What I would litk to do is be able to control the total volume with one fader, preferably #8. I would like to run it through an omni out back through channel 8 and control it that way. How exactly do I go about doing that?
> ...


Chris,

Your best bet is to link the channels together (fader level ONLY). If memory serves me right, you can adjust each one's level individually by pressing and holding the SELECT button on that channel.


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## lakota651 (Jan 6, 2014)

Hi Chris and everyone,

First, I want to echo Bob and Footer; don't make a analog loop back into the board. Latency, noise, un-needed gain stages; it will simple create more issues.

Muzicman is partially correct about the LS9 (the same is true for the M7 an CL series consoles) in that there is no specific Auxs or Subgroups. The Mix Buses however can be configured in pairs to behave as either. Variable (pre or post EQ) = Aux, or Fixed = Sub Group. His advice is also good about a Drum Sub Group, which is what you are asking about creating, however you don't have to uses a Matrix. Mix Busses can be routed to the Stereo and Mono Buses.

Now Chris, you are asking about a fader. The nice thing about the custom layer is that you can assign Mix Bus master to a fader next to an Input fader. So, if say you use Mix 9 configured as a Fixed group to route your drums though, your console could look like this:

Input Layer: 1.kick 2.snare 3.hat 4.r-tom 5. f-tom 6. oh-L* 7. oh-R* ( * = linked) 8.Bass

Custom Layer:1.kick 2.snare 3.hat 4.r-tom 5. f-tom 6. oh-L* 7. Aux 9-Drum Group 8.Bass

Hope this helps. If you would like, I could build a sample console file for you to load and look at.

Happy Mixing,

Lakota


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## bishopthomas (Jan 8, 2014)

Chris, Lakota is absolutely (and the only one) correct. I want to make sure to point out that you will need to go into the settings for the mix buses to change them (individually) from variable to fixed. You can also link them together to make a stereo pair, if desired.

Footer, the LS9 does not have any other way to do groups. If you want VCA's (DCA's as Yamaha calls them), you have to step up to the M7. One major reason why I hate the LS9. 

Wolf, you're correct in that it is possible. However, I've only had problems with adjusting individual linked channels in that way. If you pulled down all the way a fader with the rest of the group going with it then the faders with a lower value than the one you've grabbed will actually jump up to +10. At least that's been my experience the only 2-3 times I've tried it. The first time I did it was during a show. I grouped together several area mics over a big band. Several condenser mics on tall booms. I set up the mix, wanted to adjust the overall volume, grabbed one fader to bring it down, and the lowest one jumped up to +10 and massive feedback ensued. I never did it again on a show but every time I would try it with no signal going through (different consoles, different firmware) it would always do that. I quickly gave up on that thought.


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## howlingwolf487 (Jan 9, 2014)

bishopthomas said:


> Wolf, you're correct in that it is possible. However, I've only had problems with adjusting individual linked channels in that way. If you pulled down all the way a fader with the rest of the group going with it then the faders with a lower value than the one you've grabbed will actually jump up to +10. At least that's been my experience the only 2-3 times I've tried it. The first time I did it was during a show. I grouped together several area mics over a big band. Several condenser mics on tall booms. I set up the mix, wanted to adjust the overall volume, grabbed one fader to bring it down, and the lowest one jumped up to +10 and massive feedback ensued. I never did it again on a show but every time I would try it with no signal going through (different consoles, different firmware) it would always do that. I quickly gave up on that thought.


Hmm...I'l have to try and replicate that issue. I haven't had it pop up before (yet?)


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## ssss2art (Jan 9, 2014)

howlingwolf487 said:


> Hmm...I'l have to try and replicate that issue. I haven't had it pop up before (yet?)


its pretty easy to make this happen
take the first five faders and set them to
0
-10
-60
-10
0
like the letter V
now group the faders.
move them all the way down
grab fader 3 and move it up a little bit.
faders 1 and 5 will jump up relative to fader 3

if you grab fader 1 or 5 it will react the way you would expect it to.....

definitely something to watch out for.

Stewart


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## TimmyP1955 (Jan 12, 2014)

Yep, you must make sure that any channels to be linked have their faders all the way down.

I do my Custom layer as Lakota described. I have my stereo keys to the left of my vocals, and in the Custom layer the vocal bus takes the place of the right keyboard channel.

You can indeed do a fader-only link instead of using a bus (or a stereo pair of buses). But you won't then be able to link the dynamics and EQ on a stereo pair of channels or buses. IMHO the only reason not to use buses is if you need them for monitor mixes.


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## howlingwolf487 (Jan 14, 2014)

ssss2art said:


> its pretty easy to make this happen
> take the first five faders and set them to
> 0
> -10
> ...


Stewart,

Linking the channel faders constrains those faders to maintain the same relative level difference between those channels. (That's almost verbatim from the manual)

Your experience (and that of bishopthomas) makes perfect sense to me - let me explain (and please don't be offended if you already know what I explain below...maybe it can benefit someone else in the future):

Unlike a lighting console's faders, where "all the way down" equates to "0%" and "all the way up" equates to "100%", the LS9's silkscreening reflects the fact that the console uses faders that respond logarithmically to a linear change in distance over the same amount of time. 

If you move a channel fader set at -60dB (relative to channel Unity or "0") just one inch, the increase in level could be 30dB - 8x as loud! BUT if you move a channel fader set at -10dB just one inch, the increase in level is only around 6dB, a noticeable change in volume. No matter how quickly or slowly you actually make this change in _position_, the change in _level_ will still be the same. You can test this by linking two faders - one set at channel Unity or "0", and the other set at -20. Move the one fader from Unity to -20, and the other fader will move from -20 to -40. The distance each fader moves if different, but the change in level is the same between them.

I hope that makes sense and clarifies _why_ the faders "jump".


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## bishopthomas (Jan 24, 2014)

Wolf, the problem isn't the AMOUNT of travel, it's the fact that sometimes the fader ends up at +10 when it should have gone to (and stayed at) -INF. So that nice quiet woodwind mic ended up at +10, and that's a problem.


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## TimmyP1955 (Feb 12, 2014)

bishopthomas said:


> Wolf, the problem isn't the AMOUNT of travel, it's the fact that sometimes the fader ends up at +10 when it should have gone to (and stayed at) -INF. So that nice quiet woodwind mic ended up at +10, and that's a problem.



Again, make sure that the faders are ALL the way down before linking.


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## howlingwolf487 (Mar 4, 2014)

Stewart,

I wanted to update you on my findings:

After setting the channels as you suggested, I was able to replicate exactly the result you were talking about. However, since I understand _why_ this happens, it wasn't a surprise...just something (...yet another thing ) to keep track of when mixing.

That being said, if I needed to group channels in that manner, I would make sure the "ON"s are linked and mute the "group" of them - a mute master would also work, I guess. A DCA would be more-appropriate, methinks, for handling tasks requiring grouping, outside of stereo channels...the LS9's biggest lack in feature.


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## Eboy87 (Mar 4, 2014)

Another way to do it, and I don't have a console in front of me, is to turn an aux send into a fixed group. I know in studio manager, under File, Mixer Setup, you can access how your busses are set up. Let's see if photos work.




In this one, if you look at Mix 9-12, you just get an on/off button, as opposed to the pot. All you have to do is assign your drums to one of these busses to make them a group, then on the mix masters, assign them to your LR/C (controls are right next to the pan pot) instead of their outputs.




In my example (this is for the show Aida), I have a buss set up for my vocals, drums, percussion, and keyboards. I'm not using the mix faders to control them, but on the LS9 you can set up a custom fader layer where the mix master shows up for the drums instead of those 7 channels. It's a little tidier than linking the channels, plus it allows you to easily control the individual levels if Ringo suddenly decides he has a vendetta against his snare, but not the toms. It also allows you to insert some dynamics should the need arise (I have compressors on the Vox, Drum, and Perc busses).

*I should mention, I recall this was doable on the LS9, even though my example uses an M7. It's the only showfile I have handy at the moment.


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## howlingwolf487 (Mar 4, 2014)

Eboy87 said:


> Another way to do it, and I don't have a console in front of me, is to turn an aux send into a fixed group...


That's another way to go about it, certainly more elegant than linking multiple channels together at the fader level. I'll have to try that out next time I get on an LS9 and/or an M7CL.


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## Jay Ashworth (Jul 15, 2022)

The advantage of VCA/DCA over Groups is that it preserves *everything* on the channel, including pan/balance and mix sends, and that it doesn't tie up 2 mix busses to do it.

Shame the LS9 doesn't have them, but what can you do? As long as you don't want to spread your drum kit out across the entire mix, it usually won't kill you, especially for live where you shouldn't really be mixing in stereo anyway... Widest I ever go is L/R20; our room is wider than it is deep.


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