# lights and backdrop rigging



## pmolsonmus (Feb 25, 2010)

Hi,

New member, lurker in the past. To make a long story short, they've recently rennovated a 50+ yr old gym into a black box "theater" at the high school I teach in. 
Despite our suggestions and recomendations to consult with area professionals they proceeded with a project and "value engineered" stuff out like theatrical lighting. They installed acoustical clouds 8' x 8' with flourescent bulbs (dimmable) over 2/3 of the ceiling and some additional incandescents suspended over the other 1/3 that they clearly intended to be the front of the 60' x 40' room - 30'+ ceilings.
We're now at the point where we have a budget of about 40k (lights and sound) to make the space work. We've kind of given up on a suspended lighting grid and are focusing on poles in all four corners and all four walls to handle the lighting issues. (If you've got another idea I'm all ears - at least if you can answer in a hurry) Our new concern is the point of this post. We currently have a Strand CD80 dimmer pack (24) and a 300 series Strand board with the Pro Light Palette software - saving to floppy! Not sure if the computer can be upgrade at least and would likely want to increase to another 24 dimmers or at the very least be ready to add it in the near future.

We have decided to use only 2 of the walls as "front" given the doorway situation and location of the light/sound booth. My question for CB...

If we put up poles on the walls it will prevent flying any backdrops unless a truss-type (triangle or square) is used to accomodate both. 
There are at least 4 options (I think) that can be used- other options?

Portable lifts (big footprint ) and a truss or a portable truss system with a heavy bass and wire ties to the walls like they use in trade shows/rock shows. We could probably have one that could be moved for either stage position. They come in black and could probably work.???? Small footprint as well 2' square. How you get the top of the curtain/backdrop attached and raised would need to be addressed.
A traveler mechanism on permanantly mounted truss that you attach backdrops to and just pull across the back of the stage. I think this is probably cheapest but requires attaching the backdrop -or curtain 25'-30' in the air (lift(s) necessary. 
Another possibility is a pulley type system on a permanently mounted truss but that involves counter weights (I think) Attach the curtain/backdrop at ground level and elevate using the pulley. Ideally, putting the entire truss on a suspended pulley might be the best solution of all. Adjust lights and attach curtains/backdrops at the floor level. Additional length of cable is needed to allow for this lowering and how the wiring recoils needs to be addressed.
A roller-type system - the backdrop pulls down like a shade (this doesn't work for curtains)
My thinking on this is that we would want this on both 40' walls and the front wall. Probably 2 @ 24' on the 40' walls, and 1 @ 32' on the 60' wall.

Any other ideas - my specialty is sound (I mod at recording.org) and I've stayed ignorant of most of this as a result of being in a school without an auditorium for the last 20 yrs.

Phil


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## Footer (Feb 25, 2010)

What is the ceiling in the gym and is it capable of taking any weight? 

No matter what you do, you are going to need a lift. You can not focus lights properly from the ground. You can hang them on the ground, but bounce focusing is a pain, adds time, and can add additonal wear on the gear.

From the looks of it you are trying to address two different things with one stone. You are looking at taking care of both lighting and masking with one solution. This I think will lead to pain. Its going to do neither well. 

Pipe is cheap. I would really look into getting a pipe grid put in. Even if you only have pipes traveling one direction US/DS or SL/SR on 4' centers, that will take care of a lot of your problems. Before you say you can't afford a grid, get someone in there to take a look. It might be cheaper then you think. It will be dead hung and require you to hang on a lift or scafold, but that is not the end of the world. You can by a scaffold for about 1k that will get you to a pipe 20' off the ground. I don't think a proper pipe grid will cost you more then 10k installed.


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## pmolsonmus (Feb 25, 2010)

Thanks for the reply, but grid is definitely out and not just due to cost. I don't have a picture of the space but the 8' x 8' acoustic clouds are spaced about 2' apart and are suspended from the 35'-40' ceiling with wire and also contain the sprinkler system. We've had several people including rigging professional look at it.

The end result is, even if they hung a grid, it doesn't really help the lighting angles at all. Its what we suggested last spring and would have worked prior to the current room lighting installation that was value engineered at 30k!

If it helps with a little more description. Room is 40' deep x 60' wide. There are 3 rows of acoustical clouds covering about 30' (back to front)of the 40' wall for the entire 60' width. The back row of the acoustical clouds are tilted about 45 degrees to deflect sound back towards the front. 

I'm trying to light the 60' wall as stage or the 40' as stage as well as hang a backdrop or curtain or cyc or ??? as needed.

Does that make any more sense?

Phil


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## SHARYNF (Feb 25, 2010)

pmolsonmus said:


> The end result is, even if they hung a grid, it doesn't really help the lighting angles at all. Its what we suggested last spring and would have worked prior to the current room lighting installation that was value engineered at 30k!
> 
> The back row of the acoustical clouds are tilted about 45 degrees to deflect sound back towards the front.
> 
> Phil



Can you explain the angle situation a bit more?

Typically (and this is a generalization) but the Angled cloud is in the FRONT so that it reflects audio from the stage down to the audience. Typically the rear due to delay issues is NOT reflected down to the audience, but rather absorbed. Again this is an over generalization, but a question.


I guess you could go with a global truss type system using 12 inch truss you could construct a square and use crank stands so that you could raise and lower. Scaffolding on wheels would probably be usefull to focus/aiming etc

Sharyn


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## pmolsonmus (Feb 25, 2010)

Here is a pic


Picasa Web Albums - Elmbrook PR - BCHS Construc...

Shown in the pic is the back wall. Because of doorways, etc... the front is clearly in the area behind the piano or to the photographer's left if the room is set up the long way.

We stopped them from putting the clouds in the middle in the hopes of hanging a grid, but the benefit of such a grid is minimal. Lighting from the sides or back wall gets you just about the same result. The cost of the grid is considerably more because it is a barrel roof with wooden arches. 
It will hold weight but it ain't easy to get multiple fixed points.

Don't ask why they put these lights in!

Not sure if the link will work as is, cut and paste as needed.

Phil


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## SHARYNF (Feb 25, 2010)

I think acoustic wise the cloud layout is going to potentially be an issue.

If you go with side and back wall lighting is is going to be very difficult to get any sort of top lighting, or be able to easily light a spot with out a lot of spill on the back. so are you SURE that just sides and back will really work? 
Typically you want to be able to have a 45degree angle from the light to the spot you want to light as a starting point With the correct engineering, someone should be able to design a truss system that is supported by the walls if not hung from the roof and spans that distance. 60 feet typically needs a decent grade of truss (Global usually is best up to 40 feet.

The right rigging should be able to engineer a system that can use the supports from the barrel roof to hang. I would get a professional rigger locally to look at it

Be interested to see what other folks think. 

Sharyn


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## pmolsonmus (Feb 25, 2010)

I'm no lighting expert at all and I understand the 45 degree angle. I also understand that given the situation that bleed will certainly be an issue. I'm looking into some lights with a tight pattern to make the best of what we've been given from the side or back lighting on the truss itself.

Re: the sound, I'm a choral director and recording hobbyist (I mod at recording.org in the vocal booth) although there are some real standing wave issues, the sound in the room is really quite nice. We've recorded the choirs, our orchestra and wind ensemble in the space with excellent results.

With all the doorways and electrical issues, I am struggling with PA set up and wiring however. That's another issue.

Phil


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## pmolsonmus (Feb 26, 2010)

"From the looks of it you are trying to address two different things with one stone. You are looking at taking care of both lighting and masking with one solution. This I think will lead to pain. Its going to do neither well. " - Footer

I'm aware of this, my thinking is that at any given point the truss will either do lighting or as a backdrop, not both except on the very ends of the truss for some backlight type work when used as a backdrop.

The other issue is that a backdrop will likely need to be raised higher than a light truss especially when it is opposite the wall with the angled clouds.

Thanks for all the support so far, keep 'em coming I'm all ears and I do think they may listen to my input.

Phil


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## Studio (Feb 26, 2010)

I'm no rigging expert, but could you put a ground supported truss around the Stage area, with some celling support (between the light panels).


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## Footer (Feb 26, 2010)

I think Sharyn and I have the same issue. Whatever you buy, if you go ground supported your not going to be happy with. Your going to end up with EXTREMLY flat lighting. From the looks of it, the bottom of that celing structure is about 12' off the ground. After you get fixtures on pipe/truss the lens will be 10' off the ground. That is barely enough to get over audience risers. You will end up with extremely flat lighting. I also assume that you are going to use the other truss for backlighting along with your backdrop. That is going to give you some better looks but it still won't be great. 

I also assume that Choir concert and orchestra concerts will be taking placing in this space. The proposed lighting configuration will drive any musician up the wall. 

I would really look hard at your budget. For 10k, you could easily pick up enough lights to fill up your current dimming capacity. For another 5k, you could get a decent sound system that could do what you want it to for now. That leaves 25k to get the lighting position squared away. 

One option would be to buy 2 or 3 40' trusses and have 6 or 8 motors hung "motor up". That would allow you to move the truss around to different configurations in the room without having to deal with moving the actual motor. That could easily be done for 25k. If you had 9 motors arranged in a matrix, you could easily reconfigure the space into just about anything you want. 

My point is, your not going to be happy with the ground supported thing. Its going to be chunky and is simply not going to work. Your going to have to come back in later and re-do it. I would get another contractor in there to take a look. Ask about "motor up" rigging that type of thing. 

Could you give us a top down drawing with what you are proposing along with the proposed acting and audience areas?


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## pmolsonmus (Feb 26, 2010)

Update,

Since I've posted I met with a lighting designer and his electrician and they came to a similar conclusion. 

They're proposing a fixed pole as high up on the wall above the pictured light/sound booth area as possible and a fixed pole on the wall opposite the other "front" of the room (between the arches). We have 4 pre wired poles from a recently demo'd little theater grid that is now classroom space.

They are then suggesting 2 motorized trusses to be used for lighting and backdrops as necessary. One @ 30' on the shorter wall and one @ 40' on the 60' wall. This would allow for similar heights for SL and SR in either configuration and hanging drops higher than any fixed pole will allow.

They're also suggesting a small pole in each corner as high up as possible to backlight or feature on any stage configuration. Ideal - no but....I think doable at least.

We'd also probably want to add an additional 24 channel dimmer. As each of the pre wired poles has 10 outlets and work lights = 40 + 4 for the corners.
We'd keep the current light board and update in the future and purchase as many lights as the budget still allows.

I will ask them about a "motor up" system. Not exactly sure what you mean by that - it sounds like you are suggesting that the trusses could be swung around the room into multiple configurations. With the amount of "stuff" already suspended from the ceiling (16- 8x8 light panels on wires, conduit for those lights, sprinkler system into those light fixtures, the hung lights, etc... ) I don't see how anything other than tight against the walls is going to be possible.

Re: choral/instrumental concerts, unless they are small scale, they are held off premises because the space will only house about 250, and lighting is not an element that will be an important factor. The suspended dimible incandescents will give choir or orchestra members enough light to read.

Phil


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## Footer (Feb 26, 2010)

Motor up simply means that a chain motor/hoist is hung so that the motor is put into the ceiling and the chain travels down.




This is the standard way chain motors are used in industry. In the entertainment world, motors are usually hung like this....



In this configuration the motor climbs up the chain. Its a great way to get stuff in the air for temporary use but for an install its preferred you go motor up. 

This would essentially allow you to drop a chain down from the ceiling, secure it to the truss, and fly the truss out. You also need to keep in mind that you don't HAVE to have the truss go all the way into the ceiling. It can float below it.


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## pmolsonmus (Feb 26, 2010)

Makes sense to me. The gentlemen I'm working with do pro lighting and rigging for traveling shows in the major venues in the Milwaukee area. We are currently renting ground lifts and truss, and although it works, it is not what we want for permanent install - although renting or owning a few lifts down the road is something I'll be considering.

Thanks for all the input

Phil


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## mstaylor (Mar 11, 2010)

The advantage of going motor up is you can actually put the motor above the ceiling trim height to get a little more trim out of the truss. When you go motor down it tends to make the overall trim lower.


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## pmolsonmus (Aug 10, 2010)

Hi,

Update on the space. Although summer construction on the rest of the building is underway, the pic points and trusses were to have been hung this summer and the electricians were installing the necessary wiring for the motors/trusses and dimmers/lights. 

My plan for fall is to construct a light/sound booth (actually more of a deck) in the space that will be constructed between the arches (on the far wall in the earlier pic) and above the raked seating that was purchased a few months ago. The basic dimensions are 16' wide x 6' deep x 8' high (to allow exit behind the raked seating.

The current location for the light/sound booth is completely useless normally and impossible w/ raked seating. You can see it in the earlier photo.

My plan is to have glass in front and on the sides of the light OP and open air for the sound OP. (I'm a sound guy first) My thought is that this should allow for them to communicate, but not be isolated. 

We have extra poles from the demo'd grid that we will use for additional storage and keep audio equipment stored under the stairway. (This will not be a powered rack - just speaker/mic stands etc...). 

Let me know if you see any shortcomings. I'm not sure on the stairway - it may have to turn to allow traffic under the 8' deck. I'm interested in your thoughts.

Phil

Here is a jpeg of a drawing I did using SketchUp


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## Footer (Aug 10, 2010)

And... Away we go!

Because this is a permanent structure, your going to have to have it built by the book. It looks decent and the planned storage is great, however until you have a contractor look over your drawings and all that fun stuff I would not move further. I know, we say it all the time, but on this one your going to have to consult your local building inspector along with any red tape in your school. 

*For the sake of this thread not skydiving into a fight about that... Lets assume that any design offered will be built to building code by a licensed contractor with proper permits, fire code, etc, all followed. *


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## pmolsonmus (Aug 10, 2010)

For the record, I don't want any part of "grey" around code issues. I'm looking for CB's input regarding the design so I can take it to the powers that be when school begins. While there are rules in a school that are often pretty ridiculous, safety and building codes are not on the same page as going up the down stairway.

I know there are some issues regarding storage under stairways, but I think it involves closing off the space as a fire hazard. Will definitely check into it before we begin.


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## ruinexplorer (Aug 10, 2010)

Yes, I think that your biggest issue is the storage under the stairs. You may have to "squeak" out some of the lighting area for sound storage. 

How deep is the area for lighting storage? Could you put in a double wide meatrack instead of permanent pipes? That way you might be able to get a few more fixtures stored, but you can also move it around for easier access. Also, what are your plans for cable storage?


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## pmolsonmus (Aug 11, 2010)

My thoughts were to have space for audio equip (not lockable) under the stairway as well. I don't envision needing more than a dozen mic cables, a few speaker cables, 2 powered speakers w/ stands, a few extension cords and a few mic stands in the general area. Anything additional I have down in the music department well locked and maintained. In the lockable cabinet I would plan to put handheld mics, wireless packs, DI boxes, misc adapters, spare batteries, etc.. Things that are small and that can walk easily. An option is also to use the obsolete light/sound booth as office area and locked storage for valuable items. That area has a separate set of locks.

If under the stairway is not code then a separate area could easily be constructed to the right of the stairs. I'm just trying to be space efficient. Unless there is a code regarding storage under a platform??? , I also considered creating a 4' deep storage area w/ lighting on one side and audio on the other. Thoughts?

The plan for the current light storage area is about 2' deep. I really don't think a meat rack is necessary. It's a black box and the furthest wall is 60' away. There would be a basic lighting configuration always set for most concert-type performances and then about 4-5 maximum real shows needing lighting per school year.

Phil


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## pmolsonmus (Jan 11, 2012)

New update. Trusses are all operational running DMX to all four electrics and still working on an update to the dimmers but wanted to follow up on the the external booth and its design.

Because the structure is actually an overhang, code would require a sprinkler system underneath the overhang at a cost of 20-20k above whatever the structure cost SO....it's not happening. But after seeing a recent professional production I had an idea.
What about 12" trusses to build a "temporary" platform that would accommodate the tables and light sound boards and operators? Temporary structures don't need the sprinkling system and could be moved if necessary depending on black box configuration.

The frame would be easy enough and I actually may have access to a local company looking to move some inventory. My question for CB would be for the decking. The production I saw used grating, but I'd like to have a solid surface for tables etc...

Any ideas for joists and decking. I could use pipe, couplers and attach plywood but anyone ever done something like this? Ideas that I may want to consider?

Thanks in advance CB

Phil


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## mstaylor (Jan 13, 2012)

There is a variety of ways to build a flyable FOH position. What size are you looking for?


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## pmolsonmus (Jan 15, 2012)

We need to fit a light board, sound board, the board operators as well as possibly 1 or 2 add'l people - assistants, etc..

If the structure is "semi-permanent" it would also be helpful to have the ability to use a ladder from the structure to adjust the light on the electric batten above that position. Because the pipe is about 20' high, if the structure is in place we cannot get the lift into position to adjust fixtures.

So....probably 12 'W x 6'D x 10'H or so,give or take a foot or 2 either way. Enough to fit 2 folding tables and 4 chairs and high enough to look over the audience and access the pipe.

Phil


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## avkid (Jan 15, 2012)

I was with you right up until you said the platform needed to be 10 feet high.
You're also definitely not going to find something meeting that description in any staging manufacturer's catalog.
It will definitely require quite a bit of weight at the base to remain stable.


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## pmolsonmus (Jan 15, 2012)

Hi,

It doesn't "need" to be 10' high, the thought was that IF you were to put a ladder on the the platform to adjust lights, you're a bit more secure using a smaller ladder with a smaller footprint on the platform.

Right now we're functioning with about 36" H platforms that can be moved when we need to use the lift.

I was thinking 12" square truss could work, the issue is the platform. The other issue is that, because this is a multi-use facility, the height would prevent "others" from accessing the equipment that doesn't have a locked access point once they are in the room. I'm thinking possibly a removable ladder that could be locked up when not in use.

Phil


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## shiben (Jan 15, 2012)

pmolsonmus said:


> Hi,
> 
> It doesn't "need" to be 10' high, the thought was that IF you were to put a ladder on the the platform to adjust lights, you're a bit more secure using a smaller ladder with a smaller footprint on the platform.
> 
> ...


 
I might be missing something, but what if you built yourself some decks, 2x4 framing on a 4x8 sheet of plywood, and then bolted a few of them together. You could build a little table on one side for consoles, maybe 2' deep, use the deck the long ways and attach 3 of them together for a 8x12 deck. bolts for your decks together, 2x4s screwed into an L shape, 6 per deck, sway braced both ways, make it probably up to 4 or 5 feet tall, depending on how solid your consturction is. Heck, you could make it 12' tall but you would probably want it to be bigger and use a more engineered solution. Alternatively, you could buy a scaf tower, decks and railings, and have one for lights and one for sound, make it as tall as it needs to be. Ladders built in, could even have them on wheels if you want so that moving them out to use the lift would be simple. They make railings for them, I dont know if you can get them in black but you could probably paint them, or paint on a per show basis.


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## pmolsonmus (Jan 16, 2012)

The issue is "permanent" structure. As an overhang in a school it would require a sprinkler system underneath. If it is built of wood, I don't see a reasonable person recognizing that a 8 x 12 wooden platform is temporary.

We build platforms for stages like you're describing for stages, but the same rules don't apply.

Phil


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## mike1023 (Jan 16, 2012)

shiben said:


> I might be missing something, but what if you built yourself some decks, 2x4 framing on a 4x8 sheet of plywood, and then bolted a few of them together. You could build a little table on one side for consoles, maybe 2' deep, use the deck the long ways and attach 3 of them together for a 8x12 deck. bolts for your decks together, 2x4s screwed into an L shape, 6 per deck, sway braced both ways, make it probably up to 4 or 5 feet tall, depending on how solid your consturction is. Heck, you could make it 12' tall but you would probably want it to be bigger and use a more engineered solution. Alternatively, you could buy a scaf tower, decks and railings, and have one for lights and one for sound, make it as tall as it needs to be. Ladders built in, could even have them on wheels if you want so that moving them out to use the lift would be simple. They make railings for them, I dont know if you can get them in black but you could probably paint them, or paint on a per show basis.


 
I second the idea of using portable scaffold. It's portable, safe, and as shiben pointed out can even have railings, ladders, and in some cases even stairs.

I live in the Milwaukee area, if you would like you can message me directly. I could stop out sometime and we could brainstorm something that would work for you.


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## shiben (Jan 16, 2012)

pmolsonmus said:


> The issue is "permanent" structure. As an overhang in a school it would require a sprinkler system underneath. If it is built of wood, I don't see a reasonable person recognizing that a 8 x 12 wooden platform is temporary.
> 
> We build platforms for stages like you're describing for stages, but the same rules don't apply.
> 
> Phil


 
Can totally be temporary. We have built an entire 300 seat theater in a 60'x60' black box out of wood, all temporary structures. Its all about how you discuss it, and if you can take it down pretty easily, then its temporary. I still think a scaffold is a better choice, mainly because you just need to buy it and assemble it, no engineering required.


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## pmolsonmus (Jan 17, 2012)

I guess it all depends on the fire marshall, but all involved (custodial, administration, contractors, myself) all believe that a wooden structure (like the one in the earlier post) wouldn't fly with our loocal building inspector as a temporary structure.

The scaffold idea could certainly work, but would have to look into larger sizes. A quick search only came up with max 4' depth. I'm not sure about tying together.

Will continue to look, the ability to roll the scaffold to move the lift in place sounds great, but I'm not familiar enough with that type of structure to know if a rolling 8 x 12' scaffold is possible regardless of height.

Phil


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## JohnD (Feb 12, 2012)

Take a look at Upright scaffolding:
UpRight SW Span - UpRight Aluminum Scaffold
Could you place a Single Wide in front of a Double Wide, with an extra platform at desk height on the single wide.


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