# How do you deal with low lying fog wet flooring?



## LesWilson (Feb 4, 2021)

Director wants to use dry ice for low lying fog in 3 or 4 scenes of musical. I'm concerned about the actors in the next scene on a wet floor. I'm thinking stage crew and 2 or 3 dry mops doing a once over. How do you all handle the wet floor? Is it really that big of a deal? Is it really doable other than between acts with mops and fans etc? TIA


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## Amiers (Feb 4, 2021)

Depends on the foot ware and balance of the actors/ress on stage. You got a bunch of blue hairs out there or not so coordinated kids they are gonna wipe out.

Solved by like you said a quick mop passthrough ASAP or directly after the scene you do a super hot lit scene directly after then mop ASAP.


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## MarshallPope (Feb 4, 2021)

In my experience, the most moisture usually occurs within 6 feet or so of the fog outlet. If that area can be avoided until it has had time to dry or is wiped up, that is probably the best option.


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## macsound (Feb 4, 2021)

MarshallPope said:


> In my experience, the most moisture usually occurs within 6 feet or so of the fog outlet. If that area can be avoided until it has had time to dry or is wiped up, that is probably the best option.


I agree with this. 
In long time uses of a peasouper, like the sewer scene of Guys and Dolls, I've always laid a black bath towel directly in front of the peasouper, laid lengthwise toward the stage. The amount of wetness the towel would get would differ depending on the ambient temperature and humidity of the building and how much the AC was running.


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## What Rigger? (Feb 4, 2021)

Air temp and humidity are going to affect how much moisture you'll get on the deck. Another consideration is definitely: can the fog sources live in the wings? Do they have to be onstage? (What musical are we talking about, BTW?) Can they hide behind flats/scenery? This will all determine how much of a headache you have comin' your way.


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## LesWilson (Feb 4, 2021)

This is very helpful. I was leaning away from a pea souper toward the juice based Antari ICE 101 but maybe not. The towel and hot lights might be very workable for us. I was thinking everywhere that fog went would be wet. Our wing areas are preciously small and having a pipe going on stage would be a serious headache for moving and storing set pieces. This year it's new Wind in the Willows from MTI.


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## macsound (Feb 4, 2021)

What show is this being used for?
I've never used one of those fog cooling machines except one that was liquid nitrogen powered for Beauty, but how does this machine keep from leaking as the ice melts?
Wonder if you could still use dry ice.


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## LesWilson (Feb 4, 2021)

The show is the new Wind in the Willows from MTI. The el cheapo Mister Kool versions notoriously leak according to my research. But the Antari apparently has a water proof reservoir and drain valve ... one reason it is 3X the price no doubt. And yes, Antari says you can also use Dry Ice. Frankly, I wonder about the fog juice residue on the floor. I sometimes get some mighty slick areas from my flown Chauvet Flex machines firing at 45 degree down from 16'. Not sure about the noise of the Antari vs a pea souper either.


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## Ancient Engineer (Feb 5, 2021)

I have used the Antari unit with dry ice and also (very)chilled saltwater. It lays low well on a surface that isn't too warm.

It was about as loud as your average fogger... 

HVAC can play havoc with it though. If your cast has capes or flowing dresses it disturbs and migrates pretty easily.

True dry ice generated low level fog has so many other hazards that I'd avoid it if possible.

I had a setup once where wine ended up being spilled on the stage at the end of a scene... We used a few Swiffers on the changeover as they were cheap, easy to paint black and very absorbant.


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## almorton (Feb 5, 2021)

Only ever used a glaciator, but that was surprisingly quiet, and we didn't have much spatter at the pipe end, but then we weren't running it at full output throughout an entire scene for minutes at a time, just for 30 seconds or so at a time at a continuous low "filling rate". The glaciator is a fogger/chiller with no CO2 or N2 - just a big "refrigerator" for those who aren't familiar.


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## jtweigandt (Feb 6, 2021)

Pea soupers used for years.. Only moisture like others have said is usually right near the outlet and manageable. Small amt of dry ice if you break it up makes lots of fog fast, and it goes away very fast as well when you need it to. I've used chilled glycol as well, and not been as happy with the after rise/drift. Biggest pain with dry ice was the nightly stop at the HyVee or the local ice cream MFG to pick up 5 lbs.. We had a newer fogger with built in chill loop purchased for secret garden with "special" fluid for low lying, but didn't get to use it when everything went poof last spring.


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## Catherder (Feb 6, 2021)

I used a home brewed chiller for a play in the Before Time and it wasn’t super great. The initial output looked fantastic, just a nice thick carpet of mist on the stage. No issues with moisture or anything. But as soon as the performers started doing their thing it rose and dissipated pretty fast. No moisture on stage and we didn’t set off the smoke alarms, so that was a win, but not really the eerie mist we were looking for.

Funny side story - one night our fogger operator missed the stop cue and kept the button mashed down until the auditorium looked like the floor of a Grateful Dead concert. Heard after the show that the audience thought it was intentional to give a more immersive experience


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## LesWilson (Feb 6, 2021)

I really appreciate you all sharing the hands on experience. The project has been green-lighted. One of my production students and his Dad are going to build a variation of one of these that pump water onto the dry ice instead of dunking the ice into water ... easily controlled with RF remote relay ....


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## RonHebbard (Feb 6, 2021)

LesWilson said:


> I really appreciate you all sharing the hands on experience. The project has been green-lighted. One of my production students and his Dad are going to build a variation of one of these that pump water onto the dry ice instead of dunking the ice into water ... easily controlled with RF remote relay ....



Interesting, informative & educational: Of course we've all got 6" & 4" hole saws (To fabricate the donut on the underside of the lid) on hand at the ready for use in our drill presses &/or vertical mills. 
Like so many things, it all sounds easy when you say it fast (even in 30+ minutes). 
Toodleoo! 
Ron Hebbard


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## almorton (Feb 6, 2021)

Once while setting up for "Rebecca" a colleague and I were trying to gauge how much fog to fill the set with so that when the door was opened and the fire was announced, enough smoke followed to give the right impression that rest of the house was on fire. We seriously underestimated the output of a ZR33 and when he flung open the doors the smoke billowed out and *completely* filled the entire auditorium (we're only a small, 200 seat theatre) in seconds. Note to self not to run it that long in production.

For anyone who has seen the UK TV show "Stars in their eyes" it was like the "Tonight Matthew I'm going to be ..." moment where the performer is completely engulfed in fog.


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## LesWilson (Feb 6, 2021)

RonHebbard said:


> Of course we've all got 6" & 4" hole saws (To fabricate the donut on the underside of the lid) on hand at the ready for use in our drill presses &/or vertical mills.



Well I was wondering when this thread would get a Toodledoo in it! Thanks @RonHebbard. Did you see that guy's shop? Nice. In my case, my student's family owns a submersible pump company with a large factory floor, skilled metal craftsmen and house sized vertical mills and various machinery. So yeah, my hole saws top out at 4" and the throat on my 1946 drill press doesn't have much reach but I'm thinking that's not a problem for this Dad and son team.


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## Ken Summerall Jr (Feb 10, 2021)

We used a couple of PeaSoupers a few years ago for Lion King Jr. the effect was wonderful. We placed black towels in front of the outlets as mentioned by macsound. We didn't have any issues with water or moisture on the stage. Our issue was the fact that we placed the supers too close to the legs. You can imagine the mess at the bottom of the legs where the fire retardant gat damp. Had to remove the legs and send them to be cleaned and re-treated after the show. An expensive PIA.

Next time I will use short sections of dryer vent to direct the fog beyond the legs a few inches. I may also fly the legs out a few inches just before we drop the dry ice.


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## joe2you (Feb 10, 2021)

How much fog are you looking for?

I've built a custom fogger for Shrek out of a plastic garbage and some aluminum dryer vent hose and an in-line vent fan. Start at the bottom and wind your vent hose up the inside of the trash can and fix it in place with eiher hot melt glue or in my case wire. Use additional vent hose to direct the fog where you want it. 

Placed in a cement mixing pan to catch any leaking water from the holes and filled with a couple bags of ice prior to show it put's out a decent amount of ground fog that doesn't leave any water on the floor. The aluminum vent hose conducts heat (cold in this case) fairly well and transfers the cold from the ice to the fog causing it to hang on the floor. The vent fan goes on the outlet side of the trash can to help pull fog through the hose and encourages it out to wherever you want it. I just leave the vent fan on all the time (remember to use a GFCI outlet) and place a small box fan off stage on a DMX relay to help clear the stage of any residual fog when the scene is over. I suggest putting the whole thing on separate furniture dollies so you can move them around especially the tub with the ice can in it so you can empty it every night.

Simple, inexpensive, DMXable and stores well. Your biggest expense is a decent fogger but most production houses have them and you don't have to modify one if you need to rent one.


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## Catherder (Feb 10, 2021)

I used dryer vent for ours as well. Worked great. We had a cyc with a cutout silhouette village in front of it as the main set - the fogger was behind the cyc, slid the dryer hose under it and fed to a small hole cut into the bottom of the “village” at upstage center. Painted the inside of the tubing black and it blended in great.


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## RonHebbard (Feb 10, 2021)

Catherder said:


> I used dryer vent for ours as well. Worked great. We had a cyc with a cutout silhouette village in front of it as the main set - the fogger was behind the cyc, slid the dryer hose under it and fed to a small hole cut into the bottom of the “village” at upstage center. Painted the inside of the tubing black and it blended in great.


*@Catherder* Is it safe to assume your "cyc" is a sky cloth, rather than a Brit's style plaster cyc, and it doesn't have a pipe / pipe pocket sewn into its bottom edge? 
Toodleoo! 
Ron Hebbard


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## Catherder (Feb 10, 2021)

RonHebbard said:


> *@Catherder* Is it safe to assume your "cyc" is a sky cloth, rather than a Brit's style plaster cyc, and it doesn't have a pipe / pipe pocket sewn into its bottom edge?
> Toodleoo!
> Ron Hebbard


You are correct sir. Natural muslin with a pocket chain. Although, wasn’t too happy with the chain and will use pipe next time - assuming I ever get to do theater again.


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## RonHebbard (Feb 11, 2021)

Catherder said:


> You are correct sir. Natural muslin with a pocket chain. Although, wasn’t too happy with the chain and will use pipe next time - assuming I ever get to do theater again.


 *@Catherder* A couple of comments on inserting removing pipe in tight-ish venues.
The flown sky cloth in one of our venues was ~ 50' x 20'. We wished to avoid 10' lengths with through threaded external couplings every 10' or 11' (Threaded iron plumbers' pipe is normally manufactured / sold in "random" lengths ~22' Cutting in 1/2 would yield ~11' lengths).

Inserting ~22' lengths from one end requires ~25' of wing space on at least one side. We often piped the lower edges of flown drops and flat (non-pleated) borders. To minimize couplings, pocket damage, labor time, (The underside of our 'operating / pin rails' cleared ~28') we stored pipes vertically in ~22' and ~22' + ~6' (28') coupled lengths. A ~22' plus a ~28' pipe = ~50'.

At the center line, on the up stage side, we cut (Not tore) a neat ~2" vertical "insertion" slot in the pocket without damaging the excess 2" of fabric below the pocket.
This permitted us to insert ~28' pipes in the center. Momentarily slide them out one end. Insert a ~22' foot length facing the opposite side. Align the couplings, thread (Tighten) the pipes from either end then slide them laterally 'til properly centered leaving mere inches of excess pipe protruding from both ends to permit tightly stretching the cloth then securing with tightly cinched multiple wraps of flat, matte black twill tape or 'trick line' as preferred.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard


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## LesWilson (May 4, 2021)

EPILOG: 
FWIW. Our build of the TechIngredients pea souper was not very successful. We managed to get it going in one scene in one show but the quantity of fog was insufficient due to our implementation of the unit. We got a thin coat roughly 100 square feet. We're going to evolve our prototype to do better but here's some of the issues we had to deal with:

1) Small size is an advantage to the design but water proofing the PVC board cabinet seams and heater mounts was problematic. The right epoxy must be used on the seams. Also, water heater elements have a slight curve for mounting to water heater tanks. So sealing them to a flat flange was difficult.
2) The hinges and clasps are not the right design for practical use. They are good for getting a good seal to prevent fog leakage but not speed of opening and closing. Also, when the top is opened, all the condensation on it runs down and drips outside the box onto the floor and the electrical boxes on the back side of the unit. It doesn't really hold itself in any practical way when open so you end up sliding it off the hinges. It is extremely fiddly to get it back on and utterly impractical for a dark back stage environment. The clasps are good for getting a tight fit but way too fiddly.
3) The parts basket for holding the dry ice load needs to have small openings. We could not find one. We ended up with one whose openings were too large. This resulted in losing small dry ice crumbs directly into the hot water.
4) Use of a water tank element requires adding a thermostat to regulate the temperature. To handle the case of water boiling off, we added a float valve to shut off the heater if a low water situation occurred (think unit being left on accidentally). The thermostat needs power, it needs a hefty relay big enough to handle the heater element, the float valve also needs a hefty relay and power for the coil. Lacking time, we ended up with a hodge podge of low voltage power supplies for pumps, wireless pump switch receiver, thermostat and float valve coil all sealed from water intrusion.
5) After getting all the mechanicals and electricals to work, the crux of the design comes down to how well you distribute the water onto the ice. The amount of fog you get depends on how much dry ice comes in contact with hot water. The TechIngredients implementation used rice shaped dry ice to maximize ice surface area and a meticulously constructed water dispersion pan to maximize gentle water spread. We only had access to block ice so by definition, we would not get high efficiency. Add to that the ice crumbs created by smashing up the ice lost through the basket openings and our ice utilization suffered. Lastly, the pumps in the specs are quiet but do not develop enough pressure to spray the water on the ice in spite of best efforts with physical stream disruption. This is why the TechIngredients build used a dispersion tray.
6) Ergonomics: The compact form is a winner when it comes to hiding it on stage. The spec'd handles are too small for the unit's weight. The pumps and other things stick out rather precariously on the back and unit needs a drain valve. When striking the set, one of our stage hands inadvertently side-swiped another set piece. In the set piece vs pump collision, the pump broke away and created an instant drain of the water.  
7) Heater: I expected dual 1000 watt heaters but the unit came in with dual 2000 watt heaters. That spec ripples to the the thermostat relay, float valve relay, wiring and facility. Fortunately we had 20amp receptacles and 12ga extension. I only used one heater and it heated 5 gallons of room temperature water to 150 F in 25 minutes. Plenty for our use. Due to lack of testing, I can't evaluate the water heating recycle performance but I have ideas on how to maximize it.

Summary, on opening night with my student builder's Dad in attendance, everything was set with pans and towels to control leaks and condensation: the thermostat failed. Next show I hot wired it and we got our first and only use of it. I'm committed to the move-water-to-ice design over the move-ice-to-water design and will rebuild the whole thing over the summer with the lessons learned from our prototype and some new ideas. There WILL be a sequel!

Wind in the Willows: Spring


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## jtweigandt (May 4, 2021)

LesWilson said:


> EPILOG:
> FWIW. Our build of the TechIngredients pea souper was not very successful. We managed to get it going in one scene in one show but the quantity of fog was insufficient due to our implementation of the unit. We got a thin coat roughly 100 square feet. We're going to evolve our prototype to do better but here's some of the issues we had to deal with:



I love a good frankenproject, but this gives me a new appreciation for our 20 year old commercially made Pea Soupers. I have re done the seals maybe twice now, and they just keep going.
At about $900 and change though they are indeed WAY overpriced.. but really good incentive for me to keep ours alive. I do see for anyone else wanting to "roll your own" you can buy the heating element and
pass through hardware by itself.


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