# Gunfire Gunshot Sound



## lieperjp

Well, I found a little bit using the search feature, but "gun" is one of those three letter words it doesn't recognize, and "fire" "shot" and "shoot" didn't come up with much. So I created this thread with the words "gunshot" and "gunfire" as one word for the search feature.

For our musical this fall, there is a scene where there are 8-10 gunshots. What do you use to make this noise? The director wants the noise to come from stage - not from the sound system. Obviously, a gun is a safety no-no, they are thinking a starter pistol, but even this I personally am leery of. We've also thought about cap gun caps and a hammer, as six year olds do this. 

What is the best sounding (and safest) way to do a gunshot?


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## gafftaper

get yourself a 4' piece of 1x4. Stand with it wedged against your left toe one end and in your right hand on the other end. Raise your right foot and when the time is right drive it into the deck with your right foot (hinging it with the front of your left foot). I think you'll be amazed. Even with a killer sound system and a collection of great sound effects in my theater I prefer the sound of the 1x4.

Sometimes this doesn't work due to your stage, so another option is to hinge two pieces of 1x4 together, one slightly longer than the other. Lay the long one on the floor and smack the shorter one into it.


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## philhaney

We did a skit in church once that had five or six gunshots in it. It was a Book of Revelation thing that involved taking people outside who would not take the mark of the beast and shooting them. We had a responsible adult use a rifle with blanks in the next room, after obtaining permission from the police and notifying the neighbors that we would be firing a gun during our services on this particular Sunday morning.

Your "from the stage, not through the sound system" restriction not withstanding, the safest way to do it is to use a dedicated sound system (speaker, amp, and playback device), and hide the speaker in the set somewhere near where the gunshots are supposed to come from.

The most realistic way to do it is with a starter pistol. Set up an area backstage, or behind the set upstage, where the gun op has a clear view of his/her surroundings and cannot be "snuk up on" from behind. Make sure you clear the use of the starter pistol with the proper authorities before hand and double check with them to make sure you observe all relevant safety protocols.

There's also the belt snap. Just take a big leather belt and fold it in half like you're going to spank someone (in my dad's case, me). Grab both ends and push toward the middle. The centers will bow out from eath other. Pull the ends away from each other and... snap! I have tried this with various belts over the years and achieved varying results. With the right belt it sounds pretty realistic.


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## derekleffew

gafftaper said:


> get yourself a 4' piece of 1x4. ...


It should be noted that hardwoods will produce a more realistic sound than pine or fir. Hickory is the best, followed closely by maple and cherry, with oak at the bottom. Kiln-dried of course, and moisture content kept below 10%. Avoid environmentally-sensitive woods, especially ipe, as the silica in it will destroy your sawblades.


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## Les

Not sure from where, but when we did Clue in a studio theatre we bought a few revolver "stage pistols" which used caps. These caps looked more like bullets except without the projectile. They made a good sound and due to the design of the gun no harmful projectile was possible, nor was there really anything to project.


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## lieperjp

Les said:


> Not sure from where, but when we did Clue in a studio theatre we bought a few revolver "stage pistols" which used caps. These caps looked more like bullets except without the projectile. They made a good sound and due to the design of the gun no harmful projectile was possible, nor was there really anything to project.



Thanks! I ran a google search for stage pistols - don't know why I didn't think of it before - came up with this:

Western Stage Props: Guns and Accessories

But definitely not as cheap (or easy) as the 1/4. We'll have to test. The 1/4 against 1/4 is similar to a whip crack instrument that percussion sections use in symphonies and bands.


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## derekleffew

Les, perhaps they came from here: Movie Prop & Stage Prop Blank Guns - Fake Guns - Movie Weapons. 
 But use caution, "prop" guns can be just as dangerous as the real thing. 
​ See here for example: The Zaz Report! Funny Celebrity Gossip & Entertainment News! Jerry Lewis Arrested with Handgun.


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## philhaney

gafftaper said:


> get yourself a 4' piece of 1x4. Stand with it wedged against your left toe one end and in your right hand on the other end. Raise your right foot and when the time is right drive it into the deck with your right foot (hinging it with the front of your left foot). I think you'll be amazed. Even with a killer sound system and a collection of great sound effects in my theater I prefer the sound of the 1x4.
> 
> Sometimes this doesn't work due to your stage, so another option is to hinge two pieces of 1x4 together, one slightly longer than the other. Lay the long one on the floor and smack the shorter one into it.



Excellent idea. My first TD (now deceased) loved to play practical jokes. One of his favorites was to take an 8' or 10' 1x2 and stand about 15' behind someone. He would put one end on the stage, hold it at an angle, and let it fall. When the high end was about 4' off the deck, he would step on it. I've actually seen people come completely off the deck from a sitting position.


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## loki

O know you wanted it to not come from the PA, but why not have a small but loud speeker on the stage somewhere (hiden) that plays the effect?


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## gafftaper

I would strongly advise you to avoid the starter/blank pistols. They are not harmless and can kill or injure. I have a small starter pistol that I used a couple times back in the day... until I hit an actress with a piece of shrapnel coming out of the end. It wasn't enough to injure her as she was 15 feet away but it was enough to get me a few choice words and scare the crap out of me. You see while there is no bullet and the charge is fired upward, the ends of the shell casing still get blown out the end of the gun. Once I got hit myself by a piece coming out the loading hole in the back. 

In Miss Saigon there is a woman who shoots a man. If you sit in the front row you will notice she aims quite a way upstage of where he is actually at. If you follow him to the dressing room you will find he's got body armor on. 

As at College TD I would Never allow someone to use a fireable weapon blank or or not on my stage without a REAL professional fire arm person overseeing the shot. 

There are good fake weapons that fire caps that I would consider safe... but I'm telling you, a real gun doesn't sound as good as a 1x4. Last time I used it I has actors complaining that they needed hearing protection back stage.


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## ruinexplorer

I agree that the safest way to do all this is the 1x4. If the director does not like this, nor the isolated speaker, and a starter pistol is not accessible (even shooting offstage in controlled situation) then I would suggest a controlled firing of a powder actuated fastener offstage (Ramset Fastening Systems for example). These are available to purchase or rent at many large hardware stores. I doubt if they can be dry-fired, but since they are using a gun powder charge to fire them, it obviously will sound authentic. It would less likely to be used as a toy and easier to secure (not as desirable) when not on set.


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## seanandkate

I like the idea of the 1 x 4 Gaff! If you do the the weapon thing, DON'T use a real gun with blanks. The blanks still have plenty of discharge and air pressure enough to make an acor have a very bad day. Even approach stage weapons with caution -- they still need to vent (generally to the side or top) so you need to make sure that nothing/no one stands on that path. SAFD would help you out with a rental I imagine if you actually need to SEE the gun shooting on stage.

But if you don't the 1 x 4 thing is entirely badass . . .


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## icewolf08

As I hope has been drilled home at this point, safety is key. Even in the professional world, when stage firearms are used there is significantly more fight choreography than for even the most intense fistfight in _West Side Story_ (just an example of a show with lots of fighting).

This is besides the fact that stage firearms require the same amount of care and maintenance as any firearm. This means that before and after every use each weapon has to be stripped and cleaned and tested. Weapons need to be locked up when not in use. All firearm safety procedures apply to stage weapons.

Also, use of any firearm on stage requires the same safety precautions as use of pyro or open flames. This means that you have to have the appropriate safety equipment on standby and you have to know how to use it. You also need to have express permission of the fire marshall, and in some places you may need a licensed pyro or fireperson to supervise.

When all of the above conditions are met, the use of stage weapons can be very effective and safe. However, the alternatives that have been given in this thread are all standard practices. Most people don't know what a real gun sounds like, for TV and movies, it is all sound effects, so there is no reason that the same type of recorded effects wouldn't work in theatre.

Also use of a Ramset as suggested by ruinexplorer is by far more dangerous than use of stage weapons, and should *ABSOLUTELY NEVER* be used as a stand in for a stage weapon or to generate a sound effect. Using tools that are designed for very specific applications for anything else is very dangerous. A ramset is designed to drive metal bolts into concrete. They are as powerful and lethal as any firearm and they do not have any safety features for use as a sound effect generator. *A ramset has ABSOLUTELY NO place on stage or in the wings during a show.*


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## magnumBD

Alex, you make an excellent point:

"This is besides the fact that stage firearms require the same amount of care and maintenance as any firearm. This means that before and after every use each weapon has to be stripped and cleaned and tested. Weapons need to be locked up when not in use. All firearm safety procedures apply to stage weapons."

I have NEVER, repeat never, had any debris or pieces of shell casing project from any of my blank-firing weapons, and I have been at this for many years now. 

HOWEVER, blanks burn dirty, which is to say the charge is never completely consumed. This results in an accumulation of residue at the front of the chambers, within the "blowhole" where the gas is directed, and other working areas of the prop.

In the case of the small "acorn" style blanks (typical starter pistol), if the chamber becomes fouled the blank may not be able to be fully seated or supported in the opening. This conceivably may cause a failure of the shell itself. I've never had any trouble with the .380 blanks in that way.

They MUST be cleaned thoroughly after every production, or if it's a long run or a shooting intensive show, then after every week of performance. Left untouched, the accumulation of junk can be blown out by the next shot fired, causing the problem that gafftaper encountered. 

Obviously, I am a fan of blank-firing props, but I'd be the first to agree that if there is no provision for supervision or care of the prop, then an alternative method should be found. I have walked away from two productions in the past that couldn't/wouldn't take the necessary steps to ensure good practices and safety for all cast and crew. 

In one case they used the sound effects through the sound system. I showed the other production the leather belt trick as noted earlier and that seemed pretty successful for them once their crew member got the hang of it.


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## gafftaper

A quick internet search found stories of two deaths from blank firing pistols besides the famous death of Brandon Lee.


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## magnumBD

Righto, gafftaper. I know one is Jon Erik Hexum. However, it MUST be noted that in his case, as with Brandon Lee, the guns were REAL firearms using blank ammunition. This allows a great deal of blast and pressure to be projected immediately forward out of the weapon.

As you already know, purpose-built blank-firing props (the ONLY kind I use), do not project straight out the barrel, nor are the blasts and pressures anything like a genuine firearm blank.

This basically an apples versus oranges situation. Not everyone knows the difference. That's OK- that why I do what I do in the theatre community.

Clearly, real firearms very rarely have a place in a theatrical situation. I would say never, except that in some instances there are no replicas available. Sondheim's "Assassins", for one, is quite specific about the weapons used by the historical figures depicted. Several of those are some pretty esoteric weapons. I have done three productions (with not one problem) of that show, but admittedly had to play a little fast and loose with the weapons, using what I had on hand. A professional production may well end up with a genuine British Bulldog revolver, or an Italian military carbine on stage. A professional weapons handler also comes with the package, of course.

It is regrettable that you experienced a scarey incident with your actress- it does demonstrate that extreme care must be taken. But really, I have never heard of anyone being accidentally killed by a starter-gun type prop. Again, the deaths you cite are real firearms, with tragically poor supervision. Apples and oranges.


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## gafftaper

It's been a long time since the starter pistol I had spit out the little shards of metal. So long I can't seem to find the gun or I would take a picture of it. It was similar to this but I purchased this in the mid 80's(?) so it was probably very different. It had a little door in the back that flipped down to load a tray of blanks. The tray fired upward. The front of the barrel was not fully plugged. It did have a little metal "x" shaped grill but there was enough room for some debris to come out. Also that back door didn't secure very well so one time I got dinged but debris coming out the back... the last time I fired it by the way. 

As for the poor actress: this was a high school production back in the day when we didn't worry about students having guns at school. I actually had this starter pistol in my locker my entire senior year. We used it in one play, and several improv games. In a rehearsal I shot her from about 15 feet away. She yelped and swore that she had been shot for real (she also smacked me a couple times). I told her there was no way it could happen but there was still a tiny little red mark on her arm I couldn't explain. Another friend ran for class president and as part of his campaign speech I played the part of his body guard and shot a dissident who's body was dragged away by other body guards... He didn't win, but he made a wonderfully satyric statement about the students who ran our class a 4 years. Good times 

In college I did lighting for a student directed show that used a bunch of guns. One of the actor's had a Dad who was a gun guy. He brought in a bunch of guns he said were safe for use in the show. Today I would NEVER allow that to happen on my stage. 

Anyway. The point I want to make is that for the vast majority of people reading this thread they should seriously reconsider firing blanks in shows because unlike our friend Magnum here, we DON'T know what we are doing. If you need visible gun fire on stage, then you should hire someone like Magnum here to help you do it safely. My policy at the college is any gun on stage must either not be able to fire at all OR we hire a weapon expert for the show. It's not worth the chances.


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## philhaney

gafftaper said:


> It's been a long time since the starter pistol I had spit out the little shards of metal. So long I can't seem to find the gun or I would take a picture of it. It was similar to this but I purchased this in the mid 80's(?) so it was probably very different. It had a little door in the back that flipped down to load a tray of blanks. The tray fired upward. The front of the barrel was not fully plugged. It did have a little metal "x" shaped grill but there was enough room for some debris to come out. Also that back door didn't secure very well so one time I got dinged but debris coming out the back... the last time I fired it by the way.



I was on the track team in high school (yah, I was one of the equipment boys. I didn't actually run on the team  ). We had a starter pistol that looked (and worked) like a small revolver thak looked like this:




The barrel was solid, and the gas, burning powder, smoke, etc. came out the front of the revolving part and was dissipated to the sides by a cone-shaped spike of metal.

(_Full Disclosure: I couldn't find a picture of what our starter pistol looked like, so I downloaded a picture of a Precise 880 .22 Caliber Starter Revolver and Photoshopped it to look like the one we had.)_


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## ruinexplorer

icewolf08 said:


> Also use of a Ramset as suggested by ruinexplorer is by far more dangerous than use of stage weapons, and should *ABSOLUTELY NEVER* be used as a stand in for a stage weapon or to generate a sound effect. Using tools that are designed for very specific applications for anything else is very dangerous. A ramset is designed to drive metal bolts into concrete. They are as powerful and lethal as any firearm and they do not have any safety features for use as a sound effect generator. *A ramset has ABSOLUTELY NO place on stage or in the wings during a show.*



As I stated, this would not be the first option for use (nor second, nor third). A ramset does not fire bolts but nails and is used to fasten studs to concrete. It does have safety features in that it cannot fire without substantial force on the front of the unit, enough to prevent recoil, so no it could never misfire and would thus be less dangerous than a real firearm firing a blank (unless you put it to someone's head)! Yes it has the potential of being dangerous if used improperly, as is the use of the blanks in a real firearm, thus all precautions should be taken in using one. They are safe tools (speaking from personal experience) and since they require pressure on the front could never stand in for a weapon (nor can I imagine a reason in doing so). That is ridiculous for you suggesting that it could, or that anyone would use a loaded weapon on stage. 

Anything that anyone cannot do safely should not be done, period, in the theater or otherwise. That includes the use of any firearm, blanks or not. A power actuated fastener is not intended for this purpose, but then many things used in theater are not (please refer to theater history on truss and chain motors for some dangerous examples). So for you to say that it has NO place in the wings (I never suggested on stage) during a show is wrong. A statement like that nullifies so much equipment that is (mis)used during productions that we would all be out of business!

So please, anyone who is not qualified to provide proper safety to all those on stage, please change careers or get the education you need to do so.


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## magnumBD

gafftaper - thank you very much for the further info on your pistol. The photo explained much. I now fully understand your experiences. I have never cared for that type of blank gun for the exact reasons that you related- the unplugged barrel WOULD allow blast, burning debris, etc. to project forward, and the loading gate is less than totally secure. That's quite an antique (no dig intended because so am I!). Seriously, it might be worth something to somebody on good ole eBay. For what it's worth, those particular ones are no longer imported to the US. Yes, you can get a similar model, but the barrels are fully plugged.

If I may be allowed to speculate, I'd guess that your actress was struck with a small bit of still-burning powder- as said before these blanks don't burn cleanly and thoroughly.

Thanks for the photo and info, philhaney. These types are generally quite safe if handled properly, plus they are usually reliable. They are what I use probably 90-percent of the time. 

Some general guidelines for using revolver types are: keep other people a good three feet away from the SIDE of the gun. The blast strikes the solid face of the frame where there would normally be a hole for the barrel and comes out to the immediate left and right of the "shooter". Five feet of separation would be even better. Following that, the shooter should never hold the gun in such a way that fingers are laid across the cylinder portion in any manner- for exactly the reasons stated above- it's a good way to get burned.

I think by and large a lot of good thinking and info has been presented on this thread, and I appreciate everyone's commitment to safety.


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## gafftaper

So in conclusion you have four good options:
1) Get yourself a 1x4
2) Use a recorded sound effect
3) Find someone like Magnum to teach you to do it safely. 
4) Hire someone like Magnum to handle it for you and make sure it's safe. 


Hey Magnum: You joined in 2003, that makes you one of our longest lasting Members. But you only have 10 posts? You are one quiet dude. Thanks for sharing your expertise here, perhaps we need more stage weapon threads and we will get you to talk more.  Don't be shy now.


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## icewolf08

ruinexplorer said:


> As I stated, this would not be the first option for use (nor second, nor third). A ramset does not fire bolts but nails and is used to fasten studs to concrete. It does have safety features in that it cannot fire without substantial force on the front of the unit, enough to prevent recoil, so no it could never misfire and would thus be less dangerous than a real firearm firing a blank (unless you put it to someone's head)! Yes it has the potential of being dangerous if used improperly, as is the use of the blanks in a real firearm, thus all precautions should be taken in using one. They are safe tools (speaking from personal experience) and since they require pressure on the front could never stand in for a weapon (nor can I imagine a reason in doing so). That is ridiculous for you suggesting that it could, or that anyone would use a loaded weapon on stage.
> 
> Anything that anyone cannot do safely should not be done, period, in the theater or otherwise. That includes the use of any firearm, blanks or not. A power actuated fastener is not intended for this purpose, but then many things used in theater are not (please refer to theater history on truss and chain motors for some dangerous examples). So for you to say that it has NO place in the wings (I never suggested on stage) during a show is wrong. A statement like that nullifies so much equipment that is (mis)used during productions that we would all be out of business!
> 
> So please, anyone who is not qualified to provide proper safety to all those on stage, please change careers or get the education you need to do so.



I am not saying that a Ramset is not a safe TOOL, but it is a tool and during a show it shouldn't be used. You would never run a table saw offstage just to get the sound effect, so why would use a Ramset? There are plenty of products designed for stage use that give the user just as realistic a sound, and can be used for their intended purpose safely. As has been posted in this thread, there are plenty of stage firearms which when used properly are probably safer than the walk from the stage door to your car.

It is just a question of proper use, and using a ramset for a sound effect does not qualify as proper use. If you need the sound effect and you are going to generate it offstage, you could use a stage firearm in a place where you can control human traffic, which would the proper tool for the proper purpose. No need to use the improper tool for an improper purpose, especially since it won't save you any money (unless you owned the ramset).


ruinexplorer said:


> It does have safety features in that it cannot fire without substantial force on the front of the unit, enough to prevent recoil, so no it could never misfire and would thus be less dangerous than a real firearm firing a blank (unless you put it to someone's head)!


That is like saying that a pneumatic framing nailer is safe unless you press it to someone's head.


ruinexplorer said:


> So for you to say that it has NO place in the wings (I never suggested on stage) during a show is wrong. A statement like that nullifies so much equipment that is (mis)used during productions that we would all be out of business!


I don't know about you, but all of the gear that we use during a show is used for it's proper, intended purpose. You won't see any tool from the shop used in the wings of our theatre during a show unless scenery or props need to be fixed. Sure, the ASM backstage keeps a tool kit in their station, but as I mentioned, the tools only come out if something needs to be fixed (appropriate use). So, sure, if you had something that was falling off a concrete wall during a show then I think you could justify using a ramset during a show, but never for a purpose other than its intended purpose as a fastening device.

This is all besides the fact that use of any tool for other than its intended purpose can create a huge liability risk. What happens when something does go wrong, and even though you observed safe usage practices you still were ultimately using the tool for an improper purpose? What happens when you or someone else gets injured? Well, you get slapped with a lawsuit or you don't qualify for workman's comp or your insurance doesn't pay your medical bill. Whereas if you were using the tool for it intended purpose and you or someone else got injured it would most likely be covered. By the same token, if using stage firearms properly with proper supervision the liability is greatly decreased should there be any accident. Why? Because it is the proper tool used for the proper reason with proper safety precautions in place.

So, in short, I stand by what I said, a ramset has no place in the wings during a show.


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## ruinexplorer

icewolf08 said:


> I am not saying that a Ramset is not a safe TOOL, but it is a tool and during a show it shouldn't be used. You would never run a table saw offstage just to get the sound effect, so why would use a Ramset? There are plenty of products designed for stage use that give the user just as realistic a sound, and can be used for their intended purpose safely. As has been posted in this thread, there are plenty of stage firearms which when used properly are probably safer than the walk from the stage door to your car.



So like those instances on this thread where someone was using a stage weapon and someone got injured, right, got that, perfectly safe. I understand that the tool that is designed to look like a weapon (granted most of them seem to be older models) is the better choice (see my original post), yet I preferred the sound playback device which is even safer than that tool or the 1x4 (which could have its own dangers). You will notice that I stated that this was the last option if everything else was not possible. That is why I would use a Ramset.



> It is just a question of proper use, and using a ramset for a sound effect does not qualify as proper use. If you need the sound effect and you are going to generate it offstage, you could use a stage firearm in a place where you can control human traffic, which would the proper tool for the proper purpose. No need to use the improper tool for an improper purpose, especially since it won't save you any money (unless you owned the ramset).



By this, you mean that no actor should ever have a real hammer as a prop. Nor should a stagehand use a hammer offstage to bang on anything to create a sound effect because that does not qualify as its proper use. The actor cannot use it because it would likely void the safety guidelines printed on the tool that it must be used with safety goggles. Again, I said that the use of a Ramset would be if the other options are not available, not that it was cheaper, but that they are more accessible (available at big box hardware stores for sale and rent, I'm not sure that you could say the same thing about the approved stage weapon).


> That is like saying that a pneumatic framing nailer is safe unless you press it to someone's head.



You are saying that if someone is not defeating the safety on the framing nailer (again by depressing the front of the tool, though less pressure is needed than for a Ramset) that the tool is unsafe? Yes, improper use of the framing nailer on some worksites has resulted in injuries, which can be said about the improper use of any tool. But if this is the case in your shop, I would say that you need an overhaul on your tools if their safety features have been disabled. Does that mean that you also pull outriggers on your Genie lift and move them in the elevated position? Although, I must say, you probably just didn't think through your arguement and indeed do have safe practices and properly maintained tools in your theater, otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion.


> I don't know about you, but all of the gear that we use during a show is used for it's proper, intended purpose. You won't see any tool from the shop used in the wings of our theatre during a show unless scenery or props need to be fixed. Sure, the ASM backstage keeps a tool kit in their station, but as I mentioned, the tools only come out if something needs to be fixed (appropriate use). So, sure, if you had something that was falling off a concrete wall during a show then I think you could justify using a ramset during a show, but never for a purpose other than its intended purpose as a fastening device.



Well, that's because you neglected the first part of my statement when you quoted me. You neglected the fact that I was referring to the history of what we use in theater, not just hand tools. Obviously safety is the key to what we do, but in theater we practice many things that in Genaral Industry are deemed unsafe and we would be shut down if we were abiding by those same regulations. Historically, our industry has used many tools improperly in order to accomplish the task at hand (in the safest way possible) and the industry is generally creating tools to replace the improper tools (i.e. reworking the chain motors to work upside down, building truss to withstand the loads we put on them). If I am not mistaken, Foley artists (film, radio, and live theater) rarely use the actual objects to create sound effects but something that will make us believe that is the sound. By your definition, they should all be fined for improper use of tools or should not be allowed to do their work. 
Our workspace has many hazards and so our workers need to be trained to practice safe procedures and that often includes the ability to make judgements on the safe use of equipment in an unintentional manner. If this were a simple matter, we wouldn't need this discussion. I assume that your stage does not have a railing at the edge to keep the actors from falling off? I also assume that you do not require hardhats at all times (even during performance) since what we have is considered a temporary structure that should require such safety measures? These are examples regulated by General Industry standards that our industry knowingly disregards, but can be fined for (a theater was recently fined for an dancer falling off the front of the stage because there wasn't a guard rail, yes the DS edge).


> This is all besides the fact that use of any tool for other than its intended purpose can create a huge liability risk. What happens when something does go wrong, and even though you observed safe usage practices you still were ultimately using the tool for an improper purpose?



What? Because I am not actually fastening a board to concrete at that moment for construction purposes? Then please refer to my previous comment about the use of hammers in the theater. If you have an actor stand on a chair during a scene, that puts you in the same liability, so you better never direct (and yes I see that you do not call yourself a director) a play where anyone does anything against OSH Act since you would open yourself to fines and lawsuits (yes actors are considered employees and are protected by those regulations and of course I am speaking in a broad stance since 26 states have their own regulations which are more strict that the federal regulations). You really are limiting yourself and your productions with the arguement you present. 
To completely keep yourself not liable from theater related injuries, you would have to have absolutely no association with theater. Remember, Home Depot paid compensation to the victims families in the Rhode Island nightclub fire because they sold the insulation that was used in the facility. Budweiser also made payments because they were indirect sponsors of the event. Even though the insulation was used properly and the alcohol did not block fire exits, they still were legal targets for lawsuit in that case.


> What happens when you or someone else gets injured? Well, you get slapped with a lawsuit or you don't qualify for workman's comp or your insurance doesn't pay your medical bill. Whereas if you were using the tool for it intended purpose and you or someone else got injured it would most likely be covered. By the same token, if using stage firearms properly with proper supervision the liability is greatly decreased should there be any accident. Why? Because it is the proper tool used for the proper reason with proper safety precautions in place.



You are right, the liability would be decreased, but not eliminated. You would still have to prove that the offender was properly trained in the use of the tool and was using it properly, but that still may not keep you from being liable. So you better stick with audio playback (at an appropriate sound level so as not to damage anyone's hearing and keep the speaker on the floor right at the patch point so there are no cables on the floor, etc.). We would have to refrain from using the 1x4 since that, by your definition, would be an improper use (of the material, not a tool) and has the potential of injury. If I'm not mistaken, most 1x4s that everyone is using are a softwood like pine and are more susceptible to breakage and splinters. Beyond that, the crushing force that could be applied to someones foot would be trememdous and that would put you in the same lawsuit category. 


> So, in short, I stand by what I said, a ramset has no place in the wings during a show.



I appreciate that you do not feel comfortable with the use of a Ramset in your theater during shows and you have that right to control it there. For you to make a blanket statement for other theaters to not use it is improper (I am not speaking as a moderator who has ultimate control of what should be discussed). You can definitely voice your concerns, and they are quite welcome. I am happy that we are able to discuss the matter since there are more safety concerns that are addressed in this fashion. I hope that noone ever feels intimidated in posting their concerns. 

I am sure that you (and everyone else on this forum) will take to heart the continuing examples I have provided for you and the safety of your employees as well as the concerns that you express in this matter. I am sure that everyone here understands that there is a risk whenever using a powder actuated device, be it a tool like a Ramset or a stage weapon, and that EVERY precaution needs to be met. Even though we put on "plays", we work in a serious business and horseplay should not be allowed in order to help prevent injuries.


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## derekleffew

Separate corners, icewolf08 and ruinexplorer, and I'm confiscating all of your tools and props. You've both made valid points, please continue the debate privately. Don't make me close this thread.


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## gafftaper

First off, I respect both of you, consider you both friends, and value your opinions highly. I also agree that it's time for the debate to stop. However, I want to point out one thing that I think helps to explain the differences in perspectives and hopefully mends a few things here. 

Icewolf works in a world with a lot of college students. Ruinexplorer works the big room in Vegas. In Ruinexplorer's world they do dangerous things every night on stage. However, there is a carefully crafted protocol that is followed and no one gets hurt because they are all professionals, they see the big picture, and they know that the rules keep everyone alive. In Icewolf's world, the tech's don't see the big picture, they see the rules as a cumbersome process that some old fart just made up to cut down on everyone's fun. That's not saying college students can't follow the rules, it's not saying all college students want to play with everything like it's a toy... but some do. It is saying that Ruinexplorer works in an elite world. By the time you reach that level your are older, you've had some close calls yourself, and you may even know someone who was badly injured or killed. You appreciate your mortality and understand that safety really is that important. 

Just to make the point clear, let's put the ramset aside a second... I'm guessing that Icewolf's theater has some policies that limit what can be done on stage while weight is being loaded overhead or things are being rigged from the grid. In Ruinexplorer's world you can't do that because time is money. Or more amusingly, what would happen backstage if dozens of show girls ran around half dressed every night in Icewolf's theater vs Ruinexplorer's theater? 

So anyway, I think you are both right but you are living in different worlds of theater and what works in one doesn't always work in the other. I love working with students and have taught both High School and College, but they are still learning and sometimes I have to put limits on them to protect them. Those artificial limits don't exist out in Ruinexplorer's world. A world that has things far more dangerous than a ramset onstage every night.

Peace through Cubits boys!


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## DaveySimps

gafftaper said:


> So in conclusion you have four good options:
> 1) Get yourself a 1x4
> 2) Use a recorded sound effect
> 3) Find someone like Magnum to teach you to do it safely.
> 4) Hire someone like Magnum to handle it for you and make sure it's safe.
> QUOTE]
> 
> I agree with Gaff, and all of the aformentioned safety concerns. I just wanted to add a company we had had good luck with renting realistic weapons from is Weapons of Choice. They make great weapons that fire safely when we have needed them to. And make very realistic props when we have used sounds effects instead of blanks.
> 
> index
> 
> ~Dave


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## derekleffew

Control Booth is officially adding Weaponry, alongside Rigging and Electrical, into the category titled: When in Doubt, Consult a Qualified Professional.


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## magnumBD

DaveySimps said:


> ......... I just wanted to add a company we had had good luck with renting realistic weapons from is Weapons of Choice. They make great weapons that fire safely when we have needed them to. And make very realistic props when we have used sounds effects instead of blanks.
> 
> index
> 
> ~Dave



Thanks Dave - those guys are pretty good. They have been very clever and innovative creating different kinds of pistols out of the NEF starter guns. The only thing I would add is that renting from them two or three times is the equivalent of having bought the item in the first place, and there are plenty of sources. (These weapons aren't so rare as their write-ups would indicate).


derekleffew said:


> Control Booth is officially adding Weaponry, alongside Rigging and Electrical, into the category titled: When in Doubt, Consult a Qualified Professional.



Derek, does this mean that the subject is taboo on the discussion boards now?


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## lieperjp

magnumBD said:


> Derek, does this mean that the subject is taboo on the discussion boards now?



Or is it just use, protocol, and equipment? For instance... discussing how to simulate the noise *without actually using* weaponry, whether it be real, theatrical, or athletic (starter pistol?)


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## derekleffew

lieperjp said:


> Or is it just use, protocol, and equipment? For instance... discussing how to simulate the noise *without actually using* weaponry, whether it be real, theatrical, or athletic (starter pistol?)


Akin to how we treat the topic of flying humans, safe alternatives (personnel lift, lighting) is always appropriate; posting "use this, attach it to that" is unacceptable. 

magnumBD, I don't feel that posting or recommended a supplier, which could be found anyhow with any Google search, violates our TOS\Content Policies\Safety, (please read if you haven't already). The onus of safe use and operation has thus been transferred from CB to the vendor. Where it should be, as the vendor should be responsible, legally and morally, not anonymous Internet peoples.

I was always amused by PyroPak's tagline: "As Safe As Safe Can Be," thinking it rather scary when referring to explosives.


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## gafftaper

Let's put together a list of Professionals to contact...

For anyone in the Pacific Northwest, we've got a good fight and weaponry guy named Kevin Inouye here in Seattle. Here's his website. I don't know how far he travels. He will choreograph a fight for you, train you to use a firing weapon, and rent you firing and non-firing replicas. He has a nice inventory, see his website for pictures of what he's got. I rented a very realistic yet completely plastic rifle from him last year. 

Anyone else got a weapons person they would like to recommend? Magnum do you have a site (this is a good time for discrete but shameless self promotion)?


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## derekleffew

Here's a good list of resources: Fight Direction, and Stage Combat Resources from Artslynx.


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## gafftaper

Perhaps a collaborative article is in order something like: "Stage Combat and Weapons Resources".


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## ruinexplorer

I would like to add (though apart from firearms) an excellent resource for Theatrical Violence training. The Society of American Fight Directors provides excellent training to ensure safety. I was privaleged to have one of the fight masters be an alumni from my college and the enjoyment of taking workshops from someone of such great experience. I highly recommend them as a valuable resource.


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## seanandkate

And ditto for Fight Directors Canada up here. Highly trained, and consumate professionals.


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## magnumBD

gafftaper said:


> Let's put together a list of Professionals to contact...
> 
> For anyone in the Pacific Northwest, we've got a good fight and weaponry guy named Kevin Inouye here in Seattle. Here's his website.
> 
> Anyone else got a weapons person they would like to recommend? Magnum do you have a site (this is a good time for discrete but shameless self promotion)?



Thanks for the info on Kevin; very impressive!

Since I don't do this for profit, I don't maintain a website (my discretionary funds go to buying the props), but I have put together a MySpace page- the link is in my signature for each and every post, in my profile, and right here:

Stage Armament Solutions

I fully understand regarding the liability and "onus" issues as far as Control Booth is concerned. I agree that there is too much BS being bandied around the internet (on a different forum for indie DV filmmakers, some idiot even blithely stated that using real bullets in real firearms was acceptable, "if you are careful, cuz that's what they do in real movies".)

Anyone is welcome to contact me privately at any time with any questions.


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## Joshwahr

Ok,
I'm not sure which amp's & speakers etc to use, but if you're looking for gunshot effects and have a Mac (OSX tiger or up)
You can use a sound editing etc program called Soundtrack ([I will refer to Soundtrack Pro as STP] It is made by the same people who make Final Cut Pro).
STP has a whole library of SFX like gunshots, battlefield sounds, explosions, screams, phrases, moans, applause, laughter, vehicles & much much more.
I most recently used it for a video that I made for a Bible skit assignment and it has some great gunshot sound etc.
Try it out and see for yourself.
Joshwahr


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## lieperjp

The safety seriousness mentioned in this article is extremely important to consider, especially when confronted with a situation like this:

Controlbooth.com: News: High School Student Dies from Prop Gun Injury

Not trying to necropost, just wanted to add this in case anyone in the future searches for this.


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## lieperjp

Again, for both future and new readers, I just want to add a link to this thread: Creating a http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/special-f-x/9087-gunfire-gunshot-sound.html


Also interesting since it's been brought up (link found in an above thread: )

Movies promote unsafe firearms use - TheFiringLine Forums


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## 2mojo2

Placing a speaker on stage is a good way to "place" a recorded effect.
I have an inexpensive electric piano ( Yamaha PSR270) that has a pretty good built-in library of sound samples, including forty or fifty different gunshots. I am sure you can find something similar. I take sound from the piano and feed the signal to a CD burner.
This sort of thing might work for you, and all the shots don't have to sound the same.


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