# Board Upgrade Part 2



## Stoldal (Apr 3, 2008)

The admin at the school i am helping at does Not want to get a ION, but they are going to get a different board then the innovator 600. They still want to go with a levitron board, I don't know why tho. The board they are thinking of getting is the 8700 Series. I am hoping for the 8700 GX. 

Has any one used this board?

any comments about this board?

Thanks!!

MAtt S


----------



## gafftaper (Apr 3, 2008)

That makes no sense... is it because they have to stay with Leviton to avoid bid change order markups? Do they understand they are getting a second class brand of console?


----------



## Stoldal (Apr 3, 2008)

I do not know, i just send a email asking them about it. From the specs on the web site is look like it is going to be a better board then the innovator.


----------



## TimMiller (Apr 4, 2008)

Talk to them about students learning an industry standard console, even if its just an express. Leviton definately isnt anywhere in the professional relm. And I have had to explain to schools even though they have leviton dimmers they do not need leviton consoles, same with schools that have strand dimmers do not need strand consoles. I'd tell the admin, its the same as the school teaching their students how to use windows 3.1 rather than something newer.


----------



## Stoldal (Apr 6, 2008)

How different are the prices for the 8700 Series GX from NSI, and ETC ION?

I still have not found out why they are staying with NSI, but i think now that are more open to changing to board. I think it may have some thing to do with the theatre being delayed by 2 months, just a thought.


----------



## meatpopsicle (Apr 6, 2008)

While I can't speak specifically to price point I do want to chime in here that the choice of an industry standard board, be it an Express of some flavor or the ION, cannot be understated. Buying a Levitton board will be huge disservice to those that will learn in this enviroment. There really is no comparison in my eyes. One (the ETC) will provide a skill set that will be with them for years; the other will be a set that they will likely have to forget when the get to professional equipment. Not to mention the service support that ETC will provide as opposed to Levitton.

Lord save me from those administrative types pinching pennies and reading sales literature as gospel.


----------



## Footer (Apr 6, 2008)

meatpopsicle said:


> While I can't speak specifically to price point I do want to chime in here that the choice of an industry standard board, be it an Express of some flavor or the ION, cannot be understated. Buying a Levitton board will be huge disservice to those that will learn in this enviroment. There really is no comparison in my eyes. One (the ETC) will provide a skill set that will be with them for years; the other will be a set that they will likely have to forget when the get to professional equipment. Not to mention the service support that ETC will provide as opposed to Levitton.
> Lord save me from those administrative types pinching pennies and reading sales literature as gospel.



Strand Palletes as well, ETC is not the only one out there. Or you could always go the hog PC route.


----------



## Stoldal (Apr 6, 2008)

Footer4321 said:


> Strand Palletes as well, ETC is not the only one out there. Or you could always go the hog PC route.



That is very true. Strand is my native language, strand is what i first learned


----------



## DarSax (Apr 7, 2008)

Strand wouldn't at all be a bad option, it's still fairly common, and who knows about the ION / Pallette wars. It's a very legitimate option, especially if you're a Strand man. (Though some users here might disagree).

I wouldn't say a _hog_ PC route necessarily, though I actually don't know of very many (at least nearly) professional grade PC options for specfically theater boards. Which isn't that surprising, because you usually want the hardware especially for theater stuff.


----------



## Stoldal (Apr 8, 2008)

the admins are asking for a rough price of what the 8700 series costs, the ION, and a strand Palette. Any help, plz, and thank you


----------



## thommyboy (Apr 8, 2008)

I have a bid out to two local lighting houses for an ION with a fader wing. I have been given a verbal of around $8,000 for the console and a 2x20 fader wing.


----------



## mbandgeek (Apr 8, 2008)

thommyboy said:


> I have a bid out to two local lighting houses for an ION with a fader wing. I have been given a verbal of around $8,000 for the console and a 2x20 fader wing.



Is that all for a new ION? I would have thought at least $15,000 for one.


----------



## Stoldal (Apr 8, 2008)

Ya thats more the price i was thinking, 15k


----------



## jmabray (Apr 8, 2008)

List price for the 1000 channel version is $6,750.00
A 2x20 wing list price is $2,300.00

Neither of those include factory training. If you can get your local dealer to provide that for free, then more power to you. However, if you get the factory to provide training for your site, then it is going to be a cost adder on top of theat pricing. (I am not saying it is going to be 15k, but it might be more than the price listed here...) 

A 1500 channel and 2000 channel version are available but are POA (Priced on Application) Those pricings will usually come with factory training included in them. I have no idea what those pricings will be, you would have to talk to your local dealer and get them quoted.

You guys have to remember that the 1K version was designed to go into High schools and community theatres and the like. To price it that high would have put it out of the marketplace.


----------



## Stoldal (Apr 8, 2008)

Do you guy think that 1000 channels is going to be enough, if i did my math right for a one to one patch i will be using about 500 channels, is 500 channel enough room for the future. 

I think it is going to be, but what do you guy feel.

Thanks


----------



## jmabray (Apr 8, 2008)

Let's also remember here that channel really translates into device and output. Meaning that on this console, when you patch a moving light, it takes up 1 channel. However it does eat up as many outputs as there are attributes on the fixture. Your thousand channel desk has 1000 outputs. If you buy the first thousand, ETC will throw in the next 24 for free. (you actually have 1024, or two universes of DMX out of the desk)


----------



## TimMiller (Apr 10, 2008)

for most shows 2 universes is plenty. 1 for dimmers the other for movers. If the mover universe actually gets filled up then start stacking more movers in with the dimmers. So far i have never had a highschool, and very few professional shows needing more than two universes. I know several schools using hog 500/1000 and they only have 2 universes. Also most highschools have between 96 and 192 channels of dimming.


----------



## Stoldal (Apr 10, 2008)

Well i am sold on the ION, but it is just now how to get the admins sold, I have a meeting with them tomor, would it be fair to say 10-11k for a ball park price, The price includes the 1000 channel version, 
A 2x20 wing and two LCD touch($400-500 each). I know i have to get a price from a local dealer, but i just need a price to give them a idea.


----------



## SteveB (Apr 10, 2008)

Mstoldal said:


> Well i am sold on the ION, but it is just now how to get the admins sold, I have a meeting with them tomor, would it be fair to say 10-11k for a ball park price, The price includes the 1000 channel version,
> A 2x20 wing and two LCD touch($400-500 each). I know i have to get a price from a local dealer, but i just need a price to give them a idea.



Don't forget the Radio Focus Remote, which you are going to be screaming for in short order. Add about $2,000

SB


----------



## soundlight (Apr 10, 2008)

SteveB said:


> Don't forget the Radio Focus Remote, which you are going to be screaming for in short order. Add about $2,000
> 
> SB



Important point. This should be included with the package. Don't ever spec a console without a RFU. And wireless makes it so much better.


----------



## Charc (Apr 10, 2008)

soundlight said:


> Important point. This should be included with the package. Don't ever spec a console without a RFU. And wireless makes it so much better.



Psht, I have no RFU, but I'd love to get a wired RFU, run it with the data line to the catwalks.

However, something tells me it wouldn't get used after about a year from now.

Edit: The PDA version would probably be cheaper.


----------



## SteveB (Apr 10, 2008)

charcoaldabs said:


> Psht, I have no RFU, but I'd love to get a wired RFU, run it with the data line to the catwalks.
> However, something tells me it wouldn't get used after about a year from now.
> Edit: The PDA version would probably be cheaper.



There's no PDA - I.E. Windows Mobile/Pocket PC variation for the new ETC consoles.

My understanding was there were multiple issues with WiFi based RFU's, including battery life, frequent loss of connection due to the PDA's automatically disconnecting to save battery life, etc... and ETC finally pulled the plug on this format for new consoles. Not even sure they still sell the PDA units for Emphasis or Obsession II. Doubt it. 

The ONLY Remote Focus Unit for the Ion and Eos is the Radio Remote Focus Unit.

Curious if Strand - who still offers PDA remotes, had any of the same issues, or possibly (and more likely) there were so few - if any, Strand tech support folks to actually answer the phone, that nobody actually knows if the things are reliable.
Also possible that Strand did a better job with the software, then ETC, as the folks that have them, seemingly love them.

Steve B.


----------



## icewolf08 (Apr 10, 2008)

SteveB said:


> There's no PDA - I.E. Windows Mobile/Pocket PC variation for the new ETC consoles.
> My understanding was there were multiple issues with WiFi based RFU's, including battery life, frequent loss of connection due to the PDA's automatically disconnecting to save battery life, etc... and ETC finally pulled the plug on this format for new consoles. Not even sure they still sell the PDA units for Emphasis or Obsession II. Doubt it.
> The ONLY Remote Focus Unit for the Ion and Eos is the Radio Remote Focus Unit.
> Curious if Strand - who still offers PDA remotes, had any of the same issues, or possibly (and more likely) there were so few - if any, Strand tech support folks to actually answer the phone, that nobody actually knows if the things are reliable.
> ...


Well, I know for a fact that there are people right here in SLC that have PDA remotes for their EOS, so you can still get them. As for Strand, they too still sell a wRFU PDA remote for their consoles.


----------



## SteveB (Apr 10, 2008)

icewolf08 said:


> Well, I know for a fact that there are people right here in SLC that have PDA remotes for their EOS, so you can still get them. As for Strand, they too still sell a wRFU PDA remote for their consoles.



They list no PDA's for Eos or Ion on the website (or none that I could find), just the Radio Focus Remote . Perhaps SLC has an early version of remote that came out prior to the RRFU, or maybe the Obsession or Emphasis version.

Curious.

SB


----------



## Lightingguy32 (Apr 15, 2008)

+1 on all of the other users advice about your board. Tell the admin that you need to be working with a board that is industry standard such as an ETC or Strand board, Leviton in my books really doesn't have much of a market any more in the industry for control consoles. One question: is the ETC Ion necessary for what you need to get done or is it a want to try out? I would suggest an ETC Expression series board, they are still widely used and have programming language that once you learn you can run any board from that family and other console's syntax will be easy to pick up as well. If you do however NEED the Ion (moving lights, but you need the compact size) go for it and try to make it clear to administration that (a) going with the industry standard helps to teach you skills you will need if you wish to continue doing this in the future and (b) by ordering a board that isn't industry standard in some way, you increase the learning curve on the board because of different and (sometimes) confusing syntax.


----------



## icewolf08 (Apr 15, 2008)

There is no reason to get or even think of getting an Express(ion) over an ION. The ION will come in at the same or a lower price than an Expression 3 or even an Express, and it has far more and better features and flexibility!


----------



## Lightingguy32 (Apr 15, 2008)

Good point  I haven't been paying attention to the list prices of the ION vs the express(ion) boards for months now.


----------



## Stoldal (Apr 15, 2008)

yep i was talking to the People from ETC at NAB today, the package deal for a 1024 channel, and a 2 by 20 fader wing and 2 touch LCD, is going to be around 10k for the ION


----------



## soundman (Apr 16, 2008)

BMI supply is selling the ion 1000, an etc net 3 radio focus unit and a 2 X 10 wing for 7,444. That price does not include monitors but that showd not be more than 400 for two. I would only get one touch screen if any because IMO it is quicker to program with your hands on the programmer area of the console. Save things like the color picker but that can be accessed with the mouse.


----------



## derekleffew (Apr 16, 2008)

Wow. I believe $7444 is less expensive than any Express. Twenty (2x10) submasters should be enough for most applications. I'm not sure I agree with soundman about the touchscreens, but I would buy monitors elsewhere in any case. I'm afraid those HS teachers who insist on running shows as two-scene preset or subs only are going to need to come to terms with the "modern lighting world." I suspect an _Ion for Dummies_ book is in the works. Probably best to call it a _Quick Start Guide_.


----------



## gafftaper (Apr 16, 2008)

Strand's wireless PDA RFU is made by Symbol. I'm told symbol makes their PDA's for police use typically and they are really tough. I've had good luck using it so far for turning individual circuits on and off but it crashes when I try to run cues and subs from it. Strand tells me this is a problem with the software and they are sending me a new one with the updated software. I'll let you know how it turns out. But it's really cool... if they can get me one that is stable that is.


----------



## fredthe (Apr 20, 2008)

For the ultimate in modern wireless board control, one of our students has figured out how control the Strand Palette from his iPod touch... so now half the crew can control the lights remotely 
They just have to remember to disable it during the show


----------



## gafftaper (Apr 21, 2008)

Yeah I was thinking the ability to run the show from a laptop in the parking lot may not be a good thing after all.


----------



## jmcgregor (Apr 30, 2008)

Sorry to contradict Alex, but but SteveB is correct, there is no PDA remote for the Ion or Eos. The LDSAV guys have been keeping one Obsession II procesor online to keep the PDA remotes running until they recieve the new RFR's. I highly doubt that the EOS software will ever be ported to PDA - but I've been wrong before... 
However, you can always use a client dongle on a WIFI enabled laptop and access full functionality of EOS or Ion - whichever console you've logged into. - Pretty slick for a tech table or stage manager. You can even plug a fader wing in via USB and have playback capablitiy via the client. 
Hope this clears up any confusion...


----------



## DarSax (Apr 30, 2008)

jmcgregor said:


> You can even plug a fader wing in via USB and have playback capablitiy via the client.



Waiiittt...so you mean you can plug in a USB fader wing into that WIFI-enabled laptop and have direct control of the board?!?!


----------



## derekleffew (Apr 30, 2008)

jmcgregor said:


> However, you can always use a client dongle on a WIFI enabled laptop and access full functionality of EOS or Ion - whichever console you've logged into. - Pretty slick for a tech table or stage manager. You can even plug a fader wing in via USB and have playback capablitiy via the client.
> Hope this clears up any confusion...


Sorry--creates more confusion than it clears. I was told outright by an ETC employee that they would not support WiFi.

This post, from the ETC Community Forum, by "Richard," an ETC Field Service Rep. in London, states:

Wireless Access Point
Can usually be considered a 'Smart Network Switch'.
Fully Managed varieties exist.

Operates in 'Burst Mode' - it collects a lot of data and then broadcasts it as a big 'burst' to all the wireless devices in range.
This 'bursting' makes it generally unsuitable for lighting control use, as it results in unpredictable latencies.

Wireless Router
All the disadvantages of a Network Router coupled with those of a Wireless Access Point.

Basically, WiFi is great for surfing the internet where a half-second wait is generally invisible, but it's terrible for lighting control!

We are working on 'forcing' WiFi access points to dump their data at predictable moments to enable Clients to work properly, but we will never be able to recommend WiFi for lighting control in a theatrical environment.


Perhaps, what jmcgregor meant to say is that while it CAN be done, ETC officially does not support or recommend the practice for show critical situations?


----------



## avalentino (Apr 30, 2008)

Hi everyone. Wireless clients for Eos and Ion are supported in our upcoming release (1.4 in May). Some venues are using wireless now. Depending on your wireless network, it may or may not currently work. But because our transmission speeds were at a high enough rate that it could cause a wireless network to fail, we were advising people not to do it. 

But the transmission speeds have been addressed in 1.4 to keep a wireless network from tipping over. 

However.... we DO NOT recommend wireless for show critical situations. Editing is fine, but when you are running your show.. it is recommended you be at a hard line connection. 

Hope that helps. 

Anne Valentino
Eos Product Line Manager


----------



## thommyboy (May 2, 2008)

derekleffew said:


> I'm afraid those HS teachers who insist on running shows as two-scene preset or subs only are going to need to come to terms with the "modern lighting world." I suspect an _Ion for Dummies_ book is in the works. Probably best to call it a _Quick Start Guide_.



Ouch! There _are_ HS techs that are working to prepare their students for the worlds of touring and college tech programs. I just completed a load-in to a non-performance space with a full truss system, 20 stagebar 54L and an IPC. Two days before our musical went up (pictures coming soon), where they have been programing for the last week on a completely different language in a strand 300 series desk. 
I am currently spec'ing an ION for our space with 2x20 faders. (once they are actually available) 
When running a space used by a different group everyday we need to have those subs for idiot proofing.


----------



## jmcgregor (May 4, 2008)

derekleffew said:


> Perhaps, what jmcgregor meant to say is that while it CAN be done, ETC officially does not support or recommend the practice for show critical situations?



correct... sorry to stir up confusion. listen to derekleffew and avalentino. i back up their statements about wifi being used only in non-show-critical applications Does the wifi client work? yep i've seen it... should you run your show from a client laptop on a wifi connection - never. 

Who knows when a fart in the front row will swirl the air currents in the room and make the wireless drop out right at the same second you issue the very most critical cue of the evening. Trust copper lines. As far as I know they're impervious to farts.


----------



## gafftaper (May 4, 2008)

thommyboy said:


> Ouch! There _are_ HS techs that are working to prepare their students for the worlds of touring and college tech programs. I just completed a load-in to a non-performance space with a full truss system, 20 stagebar 54L and an IPC. Two days before our musical went up (pictures coming soon), where they have been programing for the last week on a completely different language in a strand 300 series desk.
> I am currently spec'ing an ION for our space with 2x20 faders. (once they are actually available)
> When running a space used by a different group everyday we need to have those subs for idiot proofing.



Thommyboy you are very rare my friend. I too was a REAL technician who taught high school drama. The vast majority of HS drama teachers are English teachers who saw a play once and made the mistake of mentioning it to the principle who said "fine you are now in charge of the drama club". I have first hand knowledge of around 20 high schools in this area. A few are lucky enough to have some sort of theater manager who really knows their tech stuff. About 3 have drama teachers with a real degree who actually had some tech training in college... although it may have been 20 years ago. Most of them are good hearted people who know nothing about tech. I know one school that has a math teacher who runs the drama club because no one else would do it. The reality is not pretty.


----------



## derekleffew (May 4, 2008)

gafftaper said:


> ...of mentioning it to the principle who said...


The princi*pal* of your school is your *PAL*.


----------



## gafftaper (May 5, 2008)

derekleffew said:


> The princi*pal* of your school is your *PAL*.



You didn't work at my school... 

For a while there I worked for a principal with no principles.


----------



## lieperjp (May 5, 2008)

derekleffew said:


> The princi*pal* of your school is your *PAL*.




Nice! Oh, what a world...


----------



## avkid (May 5, 2008)

lieperjp said:


> Oh, what a world...


I never want to hear that again!!

(blasted Wizard of OZ.)


----------



## Pie4Weebl (May 5, 2008)

thommyboy said:


> Ouch! There _are_ HS techs that are working to prepare their students for the worlds of touring and college tech programs. I just completed a load-in to a non-performance space with a full truss system, 20 stagebar 54L and an IPC. Two days before our musical went up (pictures coming soon), where they have been programing for the last week on a completely different language in a strand 300 series desk.


Very few schools have as much money as you guys do. Hmm, thinking back I think I may have met you IRL 4ish years ago back when I was a student working at NCAC....


----------



## thommyboy (May 6, 2008)

Pie4Weebl said:


> Very few schools have as much money as you guys do.



You are absolutely right...I am very lucky and blessed to be working for an affluent school district. Though the tricky part is keeping them out of their own way 

It was a weekend rental...but MAN I would love to have some of those 54Ls to replace my rondels.

But to bring us back to the board upgrade concept, they (our talking heads in the admin) would need to replace/upgrade our 100 attribute/channel strand 300 desk.


----------



## David Ashton (May 6, 2008)

Here in Australia an Ion, wing and RFU cost US$20,000+


----------



## icewolf08 (May 6, 2008)

allthingstheatre said:


> Here in Australia an Ion, wing and RFU cost US$20,000+



That is unfortunate, it would cost about half that for me to buy you one and ship it to you! Though I suppose that depends on the model as there are three standard ION configurations. The configs vary in channel count, the lowest, which gives you 1024 channels is designed to compete with the Hog 1000, a mid range, and a high end, the channel counts of the mid and high I don't remember. (I think one is a 2048 and one is something else). The low end with a wing should price out under $10K USD here in the US.


----------



## jmabray (May 6, 2008)

1000, 1500, and 2000 channel versions.

But just for you, if you buy one today, for every 500 outputs you buy, we will throw in 12 for free!


----------



## derekleffew (May 6, 2008)

jmabray said:


> 1000, 1500, and 2000 channel versions.


Significantly better than the Expression3's 400, 800, and 1200 channel versions. Original Expression was 250, right? But the (non-original?) Concept was the exact same console, but did 500 channels across two universes.

Wasn't there a very earlier version of the Concept, that was nothing like a double-Expression, or was that the Idea? What ETC board did Candlelight Dinner Theatre in Chicago have around 1985?

I hate when manufacturers re-use product names! (You know who you are.)


----------



## SteveB (May 7, 2008)

derekleffew said:


> Significantly better than the Expression3's 400, 800, and 1200 channel versions. Original Expression was 250, right? But the (non-original?) Concept was the exact same console, but did 500 channels across two universes.
> 
> .)[/COLOR][/SIZE]



Ion - as ETC puts it, can access channel numbering from 1 to 5000, with 1000, 1500 or 2000 DMX addresses.

As ea, channel can control multiple attributes, the actual console channel count is somewhat less important then the number of addresses available, as that becomes the limiting factor of dimmers, scrollers and ML's. 

I'm still un-clear if Ion can be upgraded at a later date with additional addresses.

Steve B.


----------



## jmabray (May 7, 2008)

It is my understanding that it can be, up to the 2000 output level. I.e. if you have a 1500 output version, it can be upgraded to the 2000 output version. However, if you have a 2000 output version, your upgrade would be to an EOS desk.


----------



## icewolf08 (May 7, 2008)

SteveB said:


> I'm still un-clear if Ion can be upgraded at a later date with additional addresses.




jmabray said:


> It is my understanding that it can be, up to the 2000 output level. I.e. if you have a 1500 output version, it can be upgraded to the 2000 output version. However, if you have a 2000 output version, your upgrade would be to an EOS desk.



I actually asked that question last week when we had our demo and none of the ETC guys knew, but it sounded like they leaned towards no. However, it seems like something that a little update to the software could give you more channels. So, you shouldn't take my word for it, but that was the apparent consensus that I got.


----------

