# Hanging hardware for cable for cycs?



## JLNorthGA (Dec 14, 2011)

The current "Tabs" are going to be replaced (Hooray!!) as they are the ugliest pieces of mismatched fabric I have ever seen.

Anyway - we have 1/4" steel cable running from the back of the proscenium wall to the rear stage wall. It was inexpensive and easy to do. Our new Tabs are going to have "S" hooks (a REAL improvement) and sturdy grommets (another REAL improvement).

So - I'm going to have to raise the cable by about 2'. The proscenium wall is cinder block and the rear wall is concrete. Any suggestions as to what hardware to use? The cable has turnbuckles so I can tighten it if necessary. I really want a secure anchor on the walls. Inexpensive is good. As this will be 18' in the air, I want to get it right the first time.


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## Footer (Dec 14, 2011)

Can you define "cycs". A cyc (short for cyclorama) is a piece of usually white fabric that is hung upstage. It sounds like to me you are getting new curtains for the side of your stage that are probably tabs. It also sounds like you are hanging these soft goods on a tensioned cable... which is really not the best idea. It does work, but only for short distances and with fabric that does not weigh that much. If your new goods are heaver then your current ones, you probably are not going to be too happy with the results. I would talk to the company you are getting the goods from about getting some track only with them. As far as what hardware you can use, it really depends. There are a ton of different ways to anchor into the wall, however, because you are not only going to be putting a horizontal load, but also a vertical load on the anchor, its hard to say what would work best in your application. Any rigging company or even a good carpenter will be able to set you up with what you need.


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## kicknargel (Dec 14, 2011)

I would have some concern about this setup as well, as the force on the tensioned cable is trying to pull it out of the wall, which is not a force that cinderblock is great at resisting.


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## derekleffew (Dec 14, 2011)

http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/...tuting-tensioned-wire-rope-curtain-track.html


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## JLNorthGA (Dec 14, 2011)

*on the*


derekleffew said:


> http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/...tuting-tensioned-wire-rope-curtain-track.html


 
Thanks for the thread reference.

As I said, it is 1/4" steel cable. The minimum breaking strength is on the order of 5500 lbs. The safe load is on the order of of 1100 lbs. The span is on the order of 23'.

If I can find a safe way to anchor it on the wall, I'll do it. I'll have to research tracks. Any suggestions on vendors for tracks?


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## avkid (Dec 14, 2011)

*Re: on the*

Some of these with eyes bolted on the end.
Hilti Online - KB-TZ SS304 Stainless Steel Expansion Anchor


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## Footer (Dec 14, 2011)

*Re: on the*


avkid said:


> Some of these with eyes bolted on the end.
> Hilti Online - KB-TZ SS304 Stainless Steel Expansion Anchor


 
Those are fine for actual concrete, however they will not work on cinder block.

To the OP, yes you can do this with cable. However, I have a feeling your new curtains are heavier then the old ones. Your going to get some serious sagging in the center of the cable... no matter how tightly it is pulled. 

For track, any theatrical distributor will be able to get you what you need. The most common brand in the industry is ADC.


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## josh88 (Dec 14, 2011)

As footer said, it's not so much the weight and breaking strength, the real issue is that. No matter how much tension you get on it when you start to add weight like that it WILL sag and there's no real good way around it without moving to track


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## MPowers (Dec 14, 2011)

*Re: on the*

As others have said, hang a track if at all possible. You will be far happier with the results. The curtain will be the same height all the way, off the floor or just brushing, your choice. carriers have trim chain so small adjustments are very easy. BTW, if you don't already have the curtains, ask for CCF-2 or CCF-3 fasteners instead of "S" hooks. They snap closed with out bending but are easy to adjust if/when necessary. In your area look to BMI as a possible source. I can sell you track and drop ship if you want to install yourself.

As for the cable, 1/4" has a breaking strength of 7,000 which theatre riggers use a design factor of 8 which means a safe WLL of 875#. If your curtain puts a 50# load on the cable and you provide enough tension to make the cable sag "only" 3" in the center, you are putting a load of 1150# on each end of the cable. If someone pulls on the curtain with another 20# of down force, the tension on the cable shoot up to 1750# on each end. That's a lot of force on a cinder block wall. Not to mention that you have far exceeded the recommended WLL of the cable

For the cinder block you want/need to spread the force out as far as possible and there are two ways to do it. both should be employed in your situation. the first tactic is to spread the force out sideways by using a bracket that allows several fasteners to be inserted in the wall at each end. The most effective would be an square or circle with 4 holes for bolts and angle braces coming from each point, meeting in the middle at a distance from the wall at least equal to the distance between points. Where they meet, have a forged eye to fasten the cable or turnbuckle. The second method of spreading the force is to use an epoxy adhesive type of anchor that uses a screen insert to spread and hold the adhesive in the hole. 
Hilti Online - Adhesive Anchors
Note the threaded rods and screen inserts at the bottom of the page. You put the screen insert in the hole and then fill it with the epoxy. The screen allows the epoxy to spread around and in back of the hole, like a big mushroom, in the hollow cinder block, but keeps it in place around the threaded rod until it sets up. The threaded rod has notches and crimps in the end to provide lots of locking notches and surface area for the epoxy to adhere to. This method will provide a pull out tension superior to anything except a bolt completely through the cinder block with backing plates on the other side. 

Hilti, Powers, and other fasteners have this epoxy system. Check with your local Fastenall or Whitecap or similar Construction supply company. They usually have small tubes intended for one or two bolts so you don't have to buy the $90 cartridge and $150 dispensing gun for only 8 bolts.

If you have to go the GAC route (Please, Please, don't!!!!) for your peace of mind and well being, use an epoxy anchor system. Although there are a number of vendors in your area, if you want a quote on a track, contact me PM.


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## BillESC (Dec 15, 2011)

*Re: on the*

ADC manufactures curtain tracks for all applications. They are sold through dealers.


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## JLNorthGA (Dec 15, 2011)

*Hanging Hardware for Tabs*

Thanks all for the responses. I am getting quotes for track (and carriers).

As near I can figure it, I'll have two options for hanging. 
Option 1 - chain from the concrete ceiling. Put up scaffolds to near the ceiling. Hang chain with "eye" expansion bolts down to the where I want the track. Use turnbuckles to level. If I use 3/16" or 1/4" chain, would be more than enough to take the load. Have four chains along the length of the track.

Option 2 - hang an engineered beam from front to back and mount the track on the engineered beam. I could also use a couple of 2 x 8s or 2 x 10s on edge. Simpson makes the double shear joist hangers that will support two 2 x 8s or two 2 x 10s. I could mount those on the wall with expansion bolts - though they would be smaller expansion bolts.

Any other suggestions?


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## avkid (Dec 15, 2011)

*Re: on the*


MPowers said:


> Check with your local Fastenall or Whitecap or similar Construction supply company. They usually have small tubes intended for one or two bolts so you don't have to buy the $90 cartridge and $150 dispensing gun for only 8 bolts.


 I have the Hilti gun if you decide to use this method.


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## Footer (Dec 15, 2011)

*Re: Hanging Hardware for Tabs*


JLNorthGA said:


> Thanks all for the responses. I am getting quotes for track (and carriers).
> 
> As near I can figure it, I'll have two options for hanging.
> Option 1 - chain from the concrete ceiling. Put up scaffolds to near the ceiling. Hang chain with "eye" expansion bolts down to the where I want the track. Use turnbuckles to level. If I use 3/16" or 1/4" chain, would be more than enough to take the load. Have four chains along the length of the track.
> ...


 
I would go above if you can. How high to the ceiling from the floor? A genie lift will probably do it, though scaffolding is sometimes faster. Depending on the track you get, ask how often it needs to be supported. Some types of track need to be attached every 2'... others can go up to 6' or 8'.


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## shiben (Dec 15, 2011)

*Re: Hanging Hardware for Tabs*


Footer said:


> I would go above if you can. How high to the ceiling from the floor? A genie lift will probably do it, though scaffolding is sometimes faster. Depending on the track you get, ask how often it needs to be supported. Some types of track need to be attached every 2'... others can go up to 6' or 8'.


 
If you need to support every 2', would it not be easier to throw a piece of Sch. 40 pipe on there, and pick that only 4 times and then the track could be attached to that? I would imagine this might save chain, if nothing else...


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## MPowers (Dec 15, 2011)

*Re: Hanging Hardware for Tabs*

Actually , the 1 1/2" schedule 40 pipe is the best bet, but it only needs to be supported every 10', so a 24' pipe wold need just 3 pick points, one in the middle and one 2' in from each end.


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## JLNorthGA (Dec 15, 2011)

*Re: Hanging Hardware for Tabs*


Footer said:


> I would go above if you can. How high to the ceiling from the floor? A genie lift will probably do it, though scaffolding is sometimes faster. Depending on the track you get, ask how often it needs to be supported. Some types of track need to be attached every 2'... others can go up to 6' or 8'.


 

Ceiling in the fly gallery is maybe 35' up. We are being given five sets of scaffolding, so we can buy or rent another. I was figuring on scaffolding - that is inexpensive.


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## kicknargel (Dec 18, 2011)

*Re: Hanging Hardware for Tabs*

Make sure that your scaffolding height is no more that three times taller than the narrowest lateral dimension. I love a scissor lift for this type of work, although you need a big one for 35'.


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