# Giant arches



## cvanp (Jan 20, 2008)

Hey all,

We're starting to move from the design phase to construction phase in Guys And Dolls. We've already built our stage rake and now we're starting to build several giant arches that form the sewer in the show.

Here's an image:




I've got accurate measurements and everything for how big the arches need to be, the problem is making them - we aren't quite sure how.

I want them made out of luan, as it seems that is our most cost-effective way to do things (plus if we used something like muslin that tends to ripple when people walk by it, in my experience). The problem is figuring out how to cut the actual arch. Is there a certain way we might want to approach building this?

Thanks,


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## Charc (Jan 20, 2008)

I have some plans I can look at for an arch, but it won't be what you want. Of particular interest for you though would be the top section, I think.

I'll take a look at that soon.


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## Van (Jan 20, 2008)

Traditionally, thie sewer scene takes place against a silly looking backdrop. I like your "Cut-Drop" look a lot better. These could be made as Cut Drops, but I think you are looking for a hard solution. I need to run home and do some drawing I'll post a suggestion in a bit, if no one else beats me to it.


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## cvanp (Jan 20, 2008)

Thanks Van. Any help you can provide is great! You're right about the silly looking backdrops... that is what I was making every effort to avoid. Of course, a backdrop would have been a lot easier. Now I have to figure out how to build this behemoth...

Thanks again


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## SHARYNF (Jan 21, 2008)

Van is the master here, but sometimes taking lengths of 1 inch pvc pipe, glueing them to make the length and then bending them into the arch works fine. You can also get a material with stretch ability, or attach luan Trick is to met the side pieces to be stiff enough so that it will force the pvc to keep the bent shape. 

Sharyn


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## cvanp (Jan 21, 2008)

Sharyn,

thanks for the suggestion of PVC. It sounds like it could work but it might be a bit complex to build (and seeing as how it's all volunteers, parents, etc. we have to keep it relatively simple). Plus I'm not sure if PVC would present a budgetary problem - although that's just an unfounded concern, I don't know how much 1-inch PVC actually costs.

Thanks for the suggestion though!


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## jwl868 (Jan 21, 2008)

I’ll put in my two bits on this, but I, too, defer to Van.

Will the arches be hung from a pipe?

Why not use “conventional” flat construction methods: 1x4 frame with the lauan cover?

Based on your sketch, I took an educated guess at the dimensions (Semi circle, 12’ radius), but it looks like at least 8 sheets per arch. The construction may be complicated by how wide the panel needs to be at the side/base and how wide the panel has to be at the top (between the top of the curve of the arch and the bottom of the teaser.) [I assumed 3 feet for the bases and the top of the arch.] By complicated, I mean working within the limitations of 4’ x 8’ sheets and then how much lauan will go to waste.

I also think you’ll have to build it in at least two pieces – left and right. But even those may be unwieldy to move into position. May be difficult to flip over if built face down.

**

Perhaps you know your pool of volunteers: But you should be able to find a 3 to 4 people with power tools and the ability to use them. My own experience is that people are always willing to help and will do good work, they just need the instructions. In any case, construct the upstagemost archway first – errors/blemishes will have the best chance to be hidden and everyone will have learned a few things by the time you do the front archway.



Joe


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## gafftaper (Jan 21, 2008)

Once again pointing out Van's the master here. But I would go with 1x3 or 1x4 standard flat construction techniques here on the sides. Build it in four sections, the two square areas and two half arches. For the arch section, build the top like a normal flat and make the bottom come across at an angle. Then throw a few extra angle pieces in to help with some extra support. You won't have 1x4 support in all places so the Luan will be a little bit flimsy in places. Something like this below.


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## Van (Jan 21, 2008)

I'm no master. I'm just a carpenter. Actually what gaff put up is just about what you're going to see from me. I would add that although my drawing does not show a return on the inside of the arch one could be easily added. I threw this together real real quick so som other things to take into account. To reduce the weight of the piece you can rip down the internal pieces < toggles > to 1 1/2" - 2 " don't go any smaller or you're gonna get bowing. I'd probably use 1/8" Luan on this arch, again as a weight issue. Toggles could be moved to 4' centers but I wouldn't recommend it, If you were to use 4x12 sheets of luan you could easily go to 36" O.C. Take a look at these I'll chaeck back later for questions/ clarifications.


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## cvanp (Jan 21, 2008)

Wow, Icewolf and Van, you guys are awesome!

Now my next question: what's the best way to get an accurate arch shape cut from the luan? I know how to frame it out now, but that's the best way to make the arch actually an arch? And make it look good? I guess what's tough is that it's a circle shape, and that doesn't seem too easy to do.

Thanks again!!


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## derekleffew (Jan 21, 2008)

Google "trammel points" and/or "beam compass."


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## Van (Jan 21, 2008)

Not knowing the exact measurements of your arch I'd say Use Dereks advice. 
Layout all the pieces of luan that you are going to use as cover on the floor, in the directions, and places that you are oing to frame out the arch. 
Find the center line of your arch.
Project that center line as far out as your radius of the arch. 
Make a mark for the Point of your trammel points. 
Set the pencil of your tramel points at the distance equal to radius of your arch.
Now scribe your line onto the face of the luan and cut it out with a jig saw or skill saw set very shallow. 
Another way to do it, if you don't have enough floor space is to "grid" the arch. 
Make a scale drawing of the arch on grid paper. Using 1/4" grid paper, and drawing a 1" scale drawing on it will give you an exact picture of every 3" of the arch. 
Now snap lines onto each piece of luan in a 3" grid. 
Draw what you see in each grid of the paper in the coresponding box on the luan and you will have a good representation of your arch. 
Make a cut on the outside of the line with a jig saw, or a skill saw set very shallow then using a rasp, belt sander or what ever tool you have sooth out the line to the closest approximation of the arch line that you can get. 

This second technicque is the same technicque you use to transfer a rendering of a painted drop to the full scale drop. Hope that helps.


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## gafftaper (Jan 22, 2008)

I think I would use a metal cutting blade in the skill saw. My old college T.D. who knew every trick in the book was a huge fan of metal cutting blades for any sort of detailed skill saw work or work that you need to sand down really well. 

What do you think of that Van?

As for drawing the line. All you need is a long string, a pencil, and a screw into the floor at the center of the circle. If you want to get fancy these are REALLY cool. They attach to any half inch pole so it's even easier than the string to get a perfect line.


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## jwl868 (Jan 22, 2008)

Another way to draw the arc would be to use a board (like a 1x4 or 2x4) or a couple boards screwed together to make a long compass. Drill a hole near one end to pivot on and then drill another hole at your radius. After laying the wood out and locating the center of the arc, one person holds a dowel or similar rod at the pivot, and another person makes the arc with a pencil through the other hole.

Joe


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## bobgaggle (Jan 22, 2008)

Since this is just for the sewer scene, I'm assuming you're flying these in. Now I'm just a high school senior, but my advice would be to use sheet foam. Its light and takes no time to cut out whatever you want. I build a giant castle silhouette for my school's production of Dracula this year. It was a 40'x16' flat that was supported with 1x3. it worked great

You could easily frame out your arch with 1x4 (or even PVC molded with a plumber's propane torch), use some foamboard liquid nails to apply the foam and stand the thing up. Because its flying, you don't have to worry about actors kicking through it while stumbling around in the backstage dark. Its also very light and takes paint well.

The only inhibitor would be the cost...a 4x8 sheet of 1/4" costs $10 at home depot. I don't know if you've used it before and have any left over.


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## icewolf08 (Jan 22, 2008)

cvanp said:


> Wow, Icewolf and Van, you guys are awesome!
> Now my next question: what's the best way to get an accurate arch shape cut from the luan? I know how to frame it out now, but that's the best way to make the arch actually an arch? And make it look good? I guess what's tough is that it's a circle shape, and that doesn't seem too easy to do.
> Thanks again!!


I didn't even post in this tread yet...

I agree with what has been said though, scribe and cut. You will find that at viewing distance slight imperfections won't really be visible, so cutting with a jigsaw is probably fine.

If you want to be really precise you can use a router. You would do this in much the same way as the long arm compass except instead of a pencil on the end you put the router. This is of course assuming that you have enough space to lay out all the pieces. Then you can just swing one arc and be done. Simple, precise arc.


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## Van (Jan 22, 2008)

bobgaggle said:


> Since this is just for the sewer scene, I'm assuming you're flying these in. Now I'm just a high school senior, but my advice would be to use sheet foam. Its light and takes no time to cut out whatever you want. I build a giant castle silhouette for my school's production of Dracula this year. It was a 40'x16' flat that was supported with 1x3. it worked great
> 
> You could easily frame out your arch with 1x4 (or even PVC molded with a plumber's propane torch), use some foamboard liquid nails to apply the foam and stand the thing up. Because its flying, you don't have to worry about actors kicking through it while stumbling around in the backstage dark. Its also very light and takes paint well.
> 
> The only inhibitor would be the cost...a 4x8 sheet of 1/4" costs $10 at home depot. I don't know if you've used it before and have any left over.


 
Hey This is mostly a good idea. I can see using 1/2" blue foam, it's just as expensive as a sheet of luan. The big trick is attaching it to the framing. Never trust glue alone. You would want to use drywall screws and fender washers, sink the washers into the foam a bit then putty over < or use a liberal coating of VSSSD> 


No Open Flames around PVC Pipe! You can use a heat gun, and even that you need to use in an extremely well ventilated area. 

Other than that last Caveat, Bobgaggle, Great Post ! Great Ideas! 


< for a high school kid>


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## cvanp (Jan 22, 2008)

icewolf08 said:


> I didn't even post in this tread yet...



Consider it a product of me posting at 11pm, when I'm barely functioning. I meant to say thanks Gafftaper (but thanks to you too!)

We were discussing foam as a possibility... the cost is (in my area, anyway) relatively on par with luan so that's not a concern so much as the durability is, as well as making sure someone's arm doesn't get punched through it.

This might be the way to go though, especially because of the sheer size of these pieces. That may help us when it comes down to mounting them and doing the actual flying.

Re: Putty/VSSD: I'd rather use something off the shelf due to time constraints. My TD is endorsing spackle, is that good or is there something better available?


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## Van (Jan 23, 2008)

cvanp said:


> Consider it a product of me posting at 11pm, when I'm barely functioning. I meant to say thanks Gafftaper (but thanks to you too!)
> 
> We were discussing foam as a possibility... the cost is (in my area, anyway) relatively on par with luan so that's not a concern so much as the durability is, as well as making sure someone's arm doesn't get punched through it.
> 
> ...


 
If you're going to use foam, you have to use scenic dope, the VSSSD recipes that I have posted on here are simple to mix, non-toxic, set up quickly, and cure quickly. Straight latex paint won't stick to foam well enough, it pools up, Spackle, by itself, won't stick to foam either. it'll just crumble off. You need either a commercially availible "lagging Compound" availible at most Insulation places or VSSSD which is my version of Lagging compound with a few Theatrical twists.


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## bobgaggle (Jan 23, 2008)

Van said:


> No Open Flames around PVC Pipe!



That would explain the migraine


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## gafftaper (Jan 24, 2008)

cvanp said:


> Wow, Icewolf and Van, you guys are awesome!




icewolf08 said:


> I didn't even post in this tread yet...


That makes you even MORE AWESOME Alex! or wait... maybe he was thanking you for not posting?


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## gafftaper (Jan 24, 2008)

cvanp said:


> We were discussing foam as a possibility... the cost is (in my area, anyway) relatively on par with luan so that's not a concern so much as the durability is, as well as making sure someone's arm doesn't get punched through it.
> This might be the way to go though, especially because of the sheer size of these pieces. That may help us when it comes down to mounting them and doing the actual flying.



I would lean toward Luan personally. The large sheets of foam are kind of obnoxious to deal with and you may have problems with those edges getting bumped and breaking off. The Luan doesn't weigh much more and costs about the same. If you have a normal counterweight system, the Luan won't be a problem for you to lift. Another interesting option would be Coroplast in 4'x8' sheets. It would be lighter than Luan, and more durable than foam. Price depends on how much you buy and shipping rates but it's somewhere in the $20 per sheet range.


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## avkid (Jan 26, 2008)

gafftaper said:


> I would lean toward Luan personally.


In this day and age the use of Lauan is ethically questionable.
http://www.rainforestrelief.org/Campaigns/Safe_Sets_.html


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## gafftaper (Jan 26, 2008)

avkid said:


> In this day and age the use of Lauan is ethically questionable.
> http://www.rainforestrelief.org/Campaigns/Safe_Sets_.html



Spoiling all my fun Phil... fine. I've actually recently switched to a pressed composite material made from recycled plastic bottles and freshly clubbed baby fur seal joined by a CFC and wale blubber based glue. 

The sad thing is that the alternatives are not the best yet. Most of the items on that list are either heavy or won't hold a screw safely. So the best option is to find a source of wood that isn't tropical. I actually typically use a "luan" that comes from Canada which is easy for me to get due to my location. It's slightly thicker than true "luan" and I like it's feel better than luan in most situations. I also use a lot of hard board when I can. It's a little messy to cut, but it's cheaper than luan and works just fine in the right situation.


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## Van (Jan 26, 2008)

avkid said:


> In this day and age the use of Lauan is ethically questionable.
> http://www.rainforestrelief.org/Campaigns/Safe_Sets_.html


 
There are two sides to this ugly little coin. One is that, yes, the harvesting of Luan Mahogany is a horrible impact on the environment. It aids in the destruction of Orangutan Habitat, and contributes to the watershed destruction of indigenous peoples of Malaysia. The second is that the Theatre industry has an extremely limited consumption of this resource. 
Now I hate to be the one to say, "Yes it's bad, but I'm not the worst offender." but it's true. I try my very best to recycle, reuse, and reduce my use of Luan as much as possible. The production of the 1/8 and 1/4 " Luan plywood that we typically use in theatrical construction is a by-product industry. What we are using used to be thrown away as trash and just burned while lumber mills were trying to get to the center of Luan Mahogany trees, or whole areas of rain forrest full of Luan mahogany would be cut and burned so they could reach an area populated by older, hardier, more expensive species. This discussion is, however, a good one.
My current MC/SF did his Masters work < he's really a director/actor/technician/movement coach/fight choreographer...... we call him a Dictition ( actor/Director/ technician) > on ways of improving the theatres use of materials, championing the shrinking of sets so as to reduce resources used in the production of our art. He's actually getting ready to go back for his Doctorate pursuing a course of Environmentally responsible Production of Theatre, and I can wait to read his thesis. There are many ways we can help fight the destruction and pollution of our environment but you'd be in for a long discussion trying to make me feel guilty for using less than a unit of 1/4" luan per year.


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## derekleffew (Jan 26, 2008)

In what universe could Homasote™ be a substitute for Lauan? Ever try to paint that stuff? I used to use lots of Upson Board™ in college: great tooth for painting, and easily bendable, but hard to source and expensive now. I really like Baltic Birch plywood, but my distributor only carries 6 and 12mm, in 5'-0" x 5'-0" sheets.


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## derekleffew (Jan 26, 2008)

Van said:


> ...championing the shrinking of sets so as to...


Wouldn't that require smaller actors? But what a great use for 3"Fresnels and 3.5"ERSs.


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## Van (Jan 26, 2008)

derekleffew said:


> ...Upson Board™... .


 

God I hate that stuff !!!! We had tons of it in college, used it for everything! Talk about a nasty product to produce. It's a bleached paper product that increases the Dioxin output of a paper plant Exponentially. Just imagine what all those years of breathing Upsom Board Dust did for us.


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## cvanp (Jan 26, 2008)

The luan we're using now we've used for three shows previously. We try to be extremely concious about reusing materials as much as possible, even if it means going an extra mile on our part to make sure that the older and sometimes more fragile wood will still hold up. We have to buy some new luan for this set (we decided we wanted the stability of the luan rather than the lightness of the foam) but it will definitely be reused for many years into the future.

So I feel bad, but at the same time we do our part to recycle everything we do use.


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## avkid (Jan 26, 2008)

I was just throwing that out there.
Not targeted at anybody.


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## derekleffew (Jan 26, 2008)

Theatrical educational institutions have always recycled, for economic purposes not environmental ones. It's more difficult for the commercial theatre, due to the cost of labor. Many places don't even bother to keep used color media, as it costs more to file it than to buy new. Maybe we need to return to gelatine, as a renewable resource. What would PETA say about that?

Keep up the good work cvanp. Keep using your Luan until it falls apart, or gets so small it's not worth saving anymore. Wring every dollar out of all your materials. People with limited budgets learn to be frugal.


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## derekleffew (Jan 26, 2008)

Van said:


> God I hate that stuff !!!! We had tons of it in college, used it for everything! Talk about a nasty product to produce. It's a bleached paper product that increases the Dioxin output of a paper plant Exponentially. Just imagine what all those years of breathing Upsom Board Dust did for us.


Yes, the hours/days/weeks/years I spent in front of a Cut-Awl™. Who knew the dust was harmful, "it's only paper, right?" 

And forming Celastic™ with acetone on one's bare hands! No wonder I am the way I am. 

Lighting Fixtures with asbestos leads were probably one of the safest things I used. Anyone else ever notice that Kliegl's fiberglass sheaths made one's arms itch more than Strand-Century's? Today, with ETC's, I hardly ever itch.


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## Van (Jan 26, 2008)

avkid said:


> I was just throwing that out there.
> Not targeted at anybody.


When I said " You'll have a hard time making me feel guilty...." 
I didn't mean You personally. I meant that more as a General You. I hope You understand as well, Alex, that I wholeheartedly support your point in posting that link. Raising our awareness of our impact on the environment is a huge issue with me. It's why I prefer using VSSSD over Fiberglass, Why I compost as much sawdust as I can and take home as much scrap as I can in the winter to burn, efficiently, to heat the house.


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## icewolf08 (Jan 26, 2008)

Van said:


> I hope You understand as well, *Alex*, that I wholeheartedly support your point in posting that link.


wow, I am just on everyone's mind in this thread (unless you all mean the Alex from Oz). I didn't post the link, it was Phil.


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## Van (Jan 26, 2008)

icewolf08 said:


> wow, I am just on everyone's mind in this thread (unless you all mean the Alex from Oz). I didn't post the link, it was Phil.


Man I gotta get more sleep, and stop taking all those pain pills just so I can get outta bed in the morning. 

Yes I meant Phil, I was just thinking about you Alex.


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## Logos (Jan 26, 2008)

In my personal back yard workshop I have the racks for, new timber, cut timber, medium lengths, short lengths and bits. This applies to sheet timber as well. I don't have an open fire so I don't burn it myself but I give it to friends that do and when it gets to that point it has usually been used on about three or four sets. 
I actually assumed we all do that because as an industry (apart from the very top) we are broke and need to be frugal.
I, by the way hate MDF as a substitute for Luan ply. It's heavy not very flexible and poisonous. Doesn't hold screws or nails either in its thinner weights.


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## gafftaper (Jan 27, 2008)

Yeah it's a great point, most of us have to reuse everything. It's all about modular construction and how you can use things over and over. I doubt many (if any of us here in C.B.) are in the theaters with the cash flow to break out the Sawzall and dump the set. 

Hey Derek, Do they do a lot of dumping in Vegas?


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## gafftaper (Jan 27, 2008)

<Hijack of Hijack> Hey Van you never commented on the use of metal cutting blades in the jigsaw for cutting wood. Like I said my old college T.D. always had a stack of metal cutting blades and was hard pressed to find an actual wood cutting blade. Curious what your thoughts are?


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## derekleffew (Jan 27, 2008)

gafftaper said:


> ...Hey Derek, Do they do a lot of dumping in Vegas?


You're kidding right? I've mentioned before the show that ripped out 10 racks of ETC Sensor dimmers to put in Strand. Every corporate/awards show I do fills 3 or 4 30?-40? yard dumpsters. We implode entire buildings when they reach 25 years of age. 

Where do all the sets of failed/closed Broadway shows end up? New Jersey landfill? My college survived for years on the drapery package from _On a Clear Day... _Silly to have 31' tall legs in a house with a 19'-11" proscenium? Not really. Add a 10' tall border and you have a 21' portal.

Back to the question; the waste that goes on in Vegas is sickening. But we have domestic trash pickup twice a week and voluntary recycling every 14 days.


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## Van (Jan 27, 2008)

gafftaper said:


> <Hijack of Hijack> Hey Van you never commented on the use of metal cutting blades in the jigsaw for cutting wood. Like I said my old college T.D. always had a stack of metal cutting blades and was hard pressed to find an actual wood cutting blade. Curious what your thoughts are?


 
Actually I responded with a really long thought out post. Detailing the fact that the use of metal cutting blades as "detail" cutting tools is a great idea. However I apparently forgot to hit the send button before closing out my browser the other day. Yeah it's been that kind week. When I remember what all else I said I'll post it again.


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## gafftaper (Jan 28, 2008)

derekleffew said:


> You're kidding right? I've mentioned before the show that ripped out 10 racks of ETC Sensor dimmers to put in Strand. Every corporate/awards show I do fills 3 or 4 30?-40? yard dumpsters. We implode entire buildings when they reach 25 years of age.
> Where do all the sets of failed/closed Broadway shows end up? New Jersey landfill? My college survived for years on the drapery package from _On a Clear Day... _Silly to have 31' tall legs in a house with a 19'-11" proscenium? Not really. Add a 10' tall border and you have a 21' portal.
> Back to the question; the waste that goes on in Vegas is sickening. But we have domestic trash pickup twice a week and voluntary recycling every 14 days.



I assumed as much, just wondered how bad it is. Saw a show about how they gut and refurbish the hotel rooms about every three years. I'm thinking about coming down there and buying some of that used hotel furniture and driving it home in a U-haul.


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## derekleffew (Jan 28, 2008)

gafftaper said:


> ...I'm thinking about coming down there and buying some of that used hotel furniture and driving it home in a U-haul.


Eeeewwww! Don't you know what happens in hotel rooms in Vegas?


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## soundman (Jan 28, 2008)

gafftaper said:


> Yeah it's a great point, most of us have to reuse everything. It's all about modular construction and how you can use things over and over. I doubt many (if any of us here in C.B.) are in the theaters with the cash flow to break out the Sawzall and dump the set.



We save any hardware that we can, any 2*4s, stock platforms and step units but all the flats end up in the dumpster. No room to save them, the scenic designer wouldn't think of drawing the same flat over, and most importantly being a college program what is there to learn by pulling stuff from stock? 

We might be able to squeak by with slightly larger sets or an extra light or two a year if we were to change our ways slightly but I don't foresee that happening.


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## Van (Jan 28, 2008)

derekleffew said:


> Eeeewwww! Don't you know what happens in hotel rooms in Vegas?


Yeah, but I thought what happened in Vegas stayed in Vegas. 'Least that's what all the ommercials say.


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## avkid (Jan 28, 2008)

gafftaper said:


> I'm thinking about coming down there and buying some of that used hotel furniture and driving it home in a U-haul.


I bet the POS would break down somewhere in Oregon.
Penske or Ryder, thank you.


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## derekleffew (Jan 28, 2008)

Van said:


> Yeah, but I thought what happened in Vegas stayed in Vegas. 'Least that's what all the commercials say.


"What happens in Vegas" can live on a surface for many days exposed to the atmosphere. Where _was_ that post about health class? Anyone hear about a species of "critter" becoming extinct? Thank goodness, I'm tired of itching! Best to take this non-pubic.


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