# Lighting console vs PC and wings



## strandcentury (Dec 29, 2009)

Hey, my school is looking towards getting a new lighting control system. Our dimmers will probably be ETC SmartPacks. We are really thinking of going with an ETC SmartFade 24/96 but I though about the PC alternative with wings. A 12 channel SmartFade is about 2100.00 Canadian (list price). We are used to physical "whole" consoles and not bits and peices, plus I don't know if I want to put all my trust into Windows for a show. So here are the questions to be answered.

*We have no moving lights

1. Is it really worth getting a PC based control if you are used to a conventional console?

2. What is some good software to be used for a PC based system (free and commercial)?

3. Would the price of the software (if not free), DMX to USB interface, and the wings altogether be a price close to that of the SmartFade 24?

4. What wings and interfaces would you recommend (that are in our pricerange $2000)

We would prefer one wing used for programming with a channel syntax control (Channels @ Level), and two playback wings that can execute cue stacks (we use so many of those) and be able to be able to do 2-scene preset operation.

We want the PC solution to be cost effective and as close to a lighting console as possible.

Thanks


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## Footer (Dec 29, 2009)

Don't get a PC solution. The only one I would recommended (Chamsys MagicQ) would be overkill for what you need. It would also add several levels of complexity that you don't need to deal with. A playback only wing would come in about your pricerange but would lack many of the things that would be the console "real". For strictly conventional in a HS setting, the smartfade will be fine.


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## strandcentury (Dec 29, 2009)

Thanks man.... Another question though... we were talking about rackmounts for our dimmers. We have two Lightronics RD-122 dimmers (each take up 2U rackmount space) and our local production company wants $800.00 for a roadcase. Can we take a regular audio rack case... say a Gator GR-8L 8U or GR-10L 10U rackmount, and then get a castor kit for it (we would be rolling it around most of the time indoors, and then very rarely across to another facility accross the road (there is a proper sidewalk in place, so no rough stuff). Each dimmer weighs in at 43 pounds and we have two of them going into this rack. Would the sides break off or something like that because of the weight... would we still be able to pick it up by the handles on the side and have it rip apart after too many times, would the dimmers be safe in it, would the dimmers get enough ventilation (both rear and front panels would be open, and there will be ventilator panels on the front in place of the empty rack spaces), are there any fire hazards with the materials, would it be able to hold up to some light abuse (bumps, little crashes into walls, etc.). If all this is okay, then i'm up for it. Or should we get a Gator Shock Case instead to hold up to abuse.


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## Footer (Dec 29, 2009)

Gator cases are not really designed to carry dimmers that heavy. They are designed for audio processing gear and maybe an amp. No way will they be able to take the weight of the dimmers. 

800 is a bit high, but if they are also installing a cam-lok panel and enclosing the rack it would come to about that price.


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## Jeroen (Dec 29, 2009)

-> 1) There are not many pc based control systems that are easy to use, most will be overkill when you are used to conventionals only:

-> 2) and 4) Suggestions for high-end pc based controls that I would consider:

- MA GrandMA on PC with MA dmx/ethernet node Pro, you can use any simple and cheap dmx console as a wing

- Chamsys MagicQ on pc with a small Chamsys wing

- E-que, mainly for architectural lighting, but also usable for theater, can do 'almost anything', only with e-que wing

- Hog3 on pc with widget and / or the expansion wings you want

-> 3) Chamsys and E-Que will be slightly more expensive, GrandMA on pc depends on your node, and offcourse do not forget to count your pc too... the ETC Smartfade will be at similar or lower price range. However it has not the common channel syntax control [email protected]
The Hog3 on pc with expansion wings (programming and master wing) will certainly be more expensive, same goes for the Chamsys Magic Q with larger and more usefull expansion wings.

The ETC Smartfade is for it's price an impressive console. It can do a lot, and you can use a computer running Smartsoft to connect to the usb port on the console, resulting in a very decent full-size screen output, with info on dmx levels, patch, que list, stack list, memories...

I have experienced some small problems with the console: for instance freeze when connected to apple book and editing on console and apple at the same time. Also some strange output problems when exiting a stack and re-entering it. 
However we use our Smartfade 24/96, and are very happy with it. Only two things I would like to see added is the ability to run sequences within a stack list and/or disproportional fades or several cue lists in one stack, GO operation.

The Smartfade is a good choice for only conventionals and hands-on control, I would also not go for a pc solution in your situation.
Similar products are the Zero88 Jester (graphical output onboard, but less possibilities), ADB-TTV Mikado or Domino 24 (excellent quality board, but expensive, ADB-TTV Technologies), MA Lightcommander 12/2 (but this console is also limited compared to the ETC SmartFade or ADB Domino).


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## len (Dec 29, 2009)

Given the application, I wouldn't use a pc. Conventional consoles are typically easier to teach, and with the number of people in your venue who are inexperienced, that's going to be a strong selling point.


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## tcahall (Dec 29, 2009)

I am a huge fan of MagicQ on PC. However, for your application and population, get a conventional, two scene hardware console that has some patching and programming ability. You will be much happier in the long run.

If you are working larger rigs, movers, LEDs (especially if you are putting them into a matrix), I would give a different answer.

Tim.


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## JChenault (Dec 29, 2009)

As someone who frequently recommends software only solutions to lighting control of moving lights, I want to chime in on the side of the folks recommending a hardware only solution.

Sounds to me that for your situation you need a dedicated system that folks can quickly learn and cannot mess with.


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## DuckJordan (Dec 30, 2009)

Unfortunately, the PC based solution i am at the respect for is horizon but it is no longer available. if you can find the control box it is free software now from horizon and instead of using usb which can easily give you problems it goes out of the old printer ports on computers (you know the big plug that no one seems to sell anymore) it has a wing but unfortunately that too is going extinct i am in a high school environment and as an incoming freshman i found that it was very easy to learn as you didn't have to type commands or anything into the fixtures. its a lot easier to use for shows as to progress cues you just tap the space bar once to go to the next cue and it saves each show on the hard drive... but as i said it would be almost impossible to find a decent working one.


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## Lotos (Dec 30, 2009)

DuckJordan said:


> Unfortunately, the PC based solution i am at the respect for is horizon but it is no longer available.


 
See ET's Marquee Series:
Entertainment Technology
Entertainment Technology

OR

Strand's Palette Series:
Basic Palette II | Strand Lighting - A Philips Group Brand
Classic Palette II | Strand Lighting - A Philips Group Brand
Palette VL | Strand Lighting - A Philips Group Brand
Preset Palette II | Strand Lighting - A Philips Group Brand
Light Palette Classic | Strand Lighting - A Philips Group Brand
Light Palette Live | Strand Lighting - A Philips Group Brand
Light Palette VL | Strand Lighting - A Philips Group Brand

Both based on the Horizon software.


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## DuckJordan (Dec 30, 2009)

based upon price how much would each of those run you roughly an average or so, horizon even when you had to buy the software would run you about $1000 including the box the analog slider wing and the software, this is a very cheap solution for a high school which has a total of 112 actual dimmer spots and possibly 90 lights altogether none of which are movable and most are junk ellipsoidals from colortran (not a huge fan of colortran systems) and for a system whos update for the school came about 10 years ago and was just a controller update and a few lights over the years i'd say that the horizon solution is very simple and easy. as per your lists of pc solutions those seem more towards a console which is what the OP would probably lean towards where as i lean more towards completely pc as its easier for me to have another student just press the space bar than to actually try to teach them how to run a complete show from scratch as what we had to do. 

(before i get the "your not teaching them a great deal by only letting them press the space bar" answer) I do teach them how to program cues and such i would just rather them use a system where its completely on the computer to remember what to do rather than a student who is more interested on where their friend is sitting in the audience.


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## strandcentury (Dec 30, 2009)

Great input you guys, ETC SmartFade it is then, I would like to go with a Strand console since that is what I am used to (MX, GSX), but a Basic Palette is way out of our pricerange (i think) how much to they go for Canadian, I was thinking along the price range somewhere around $3000 or so. DuckJordan: I hate Colortran, I was using one of their Status consoles... was not bad except it was awkward to softpatch, but the two ENR dimmers sucked so bad, their fixtures? I would take a Source Four any day).


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## DuckJordan (Dec 30, 2009)

strandcentury said:


> Great input you guys, ETC SmartFade it is then, I would like to go with a Strand console since that is what I am used to (MX, GSX), but a Basic Palette is way out of our pricerange (i think) how much to they go for Canadian, I was thinking along the price range somewhere around $3000 or so. DuckJordan: I hate Colortran, I was using one of their Status consoles... was not bad except it was awkward to softpatch, but the two ENR dimmers sucked so bad, their fixtures? I would take a Source Four any day).




so would i still trying to get our director to switch over from his colortran days hes old and been out of the business a while and still thinks colortran are gods lol. We fortunatly have a new TD who is in love with the source fours and had 4 of his own we used and i think that made our Director decide to go with source fours.


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## SteveB (Dec 30, 2009)

strandcentury said:


> : I hate Colortran, I was using one of their Status consoles... was not bad except it was awkward to softpatch, but the two ENR dimmers sucked so bad, their fixtures? I would take a Source Four any day).



Not for nothing and I'm not a C-Tran lover, but the 12/24 ch. Status I use as a recital console works very well and mine has NEVER crashed (and I got it used). The patch is simple to use - "Dimmer - XX - + (or second tap of + to make it thru) - XX - @ - XX - Enter". That's certainly as easy as any Strand or ETC product and is done right from the basic keyboard with no need to access a Patch section first. Granted that it's a very basic console, but it's also cheap. 

ENR's are the original Sensor, BTW and with the D192 dimmers are considered very well designed and reliable by those who fix them. Like anything with C-Tran though, getting it fixed and/or getting support from Colortran is problematic (Unless you call Litetrol), thus I fully understand the desire for an ETC console. 

SB


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## derekleffew (Dec 30, 2009)

SteveB said:


> ...ENR's are the original Sensor, BTW ...


To clarify: both were designed by the same person, David Cunningham of his firm Entertec; the Colortran ENR in the late 1980s, ETC Sensor in 1992, (also Strand Century's CD80 of 1979, D192 in 1984, the original Light Palette 1979, the SourceFour 1992, as well as many other lighting milestones). For more history, read _Let There Be Light: Entertainment Lighting Software Pioneers in Conversation_, by Robert Bell, Entertainment Technology Press, 2004.


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## Tracyu (Dec 30, 2009)

One of the things about PC consoles that I like is that you can almost always download a "trial" version. I've not used this one much, but I've seen it work and it's not bad;
LightFactory Home Page

I've had a jester around for over a year now and I find it a pretty handy console. In addition to the Monitor output you also get a DMX IN. I really like the effects package as well. The latest software upgrade also adds MIDI show control support. Of course Zero also has the manual burned in the ROM so you never loose the thing!

Your pricing is going to be around the same for either option. You can do more with a PC but it will be more complicated and because it's on a generic PC more subject to walking off. A dedicated lighting console will generally be simpler to use and should last longer. 
best of luck with it!


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## strandcentury (Jan 2, 2010)

Yeah I found the Status line very flexible when it came to programming and softpatching because of its command line syntax. I use a lot of Strand and ETC stuff so I don't get to play around much with Leviton/NSI/Colortran stuff at all. The 80's and 90's I think were a really interesting time for entertainment lighting control since everything was moving from analogue to digital. I won't go for a computer based system, the ETC SmartFade is our best canidate right now. We are thinking of a Strand BasicPallete or ClassicPallete, is the cheapest variation about $4000 or so? we only have 24 channels so the lowest model will work for us.


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## iLightTheStage (Jan 3, 2010)

strandcentury said:


> Hey, my school is looking towards getting a new lighting control system. Our dimmers will probably be ETC SmartPacks. We are really thinking of going with an ETC SmartFade 24/96 but I though about the PC alternative with wings. A 12 channel SmartFade is about 2100.00 Canadian (list price). We are used to physical "whole" consoles and not bits and peices, plus I don't know if I want to put all my trust into Windows for a show. So here are the questions to be answered.
> 
> *We have no moving lights
> 
> ...



In my personal opinion, PC based lighting controls should only be used in installations where the design doesn't really change more than once a year. Such as an architectural installation. For a theater space, you are adding more components that can fail, be lost/stolen, get damaged. Plus, you are then at the mercy of the platform the PC has, and all of the crap people will dump on the computer for entertaining themselves during shows.


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## GreyWyvern (Jan 6, 2010)

strandcentury said:


> ... the ETC SmartFade is our best canidate right now. ...



I think that is a wise choice. I am a fan of the SmartFade consoles. They would be good for your space from the sound of things. Also, the SmartSoft program (free!) makes it an even better deal. I personally would not get the console without being sure that I had a computer available that I could run the software on.

Which reminds me, I need to add an inexpensive computer to the upgrade proposal I am doing for my church's lighting system!


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## NJLX (Jan 6, 2010)

GreyWyvern said:


> I Also, the SmartSoft program (free!) makes it an even better deal. I personally would not get the console without being sure that I had a computer available that I could run the software on.




I personally am not a fan of the smartfade, I find the cue stack annoying to use, and any type of recording to be difficult and/or not user-friendly(along the lines of the NSI MC 7024 that i started on)

however, it can be a workable solution, provided you have a computer that can run the smartsoft software and is readily available to use with the console.


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## GreyWyvern (Jan 6, 2010)

Nathaniel said:


> I personally am not a fan of the smartfade, I find the cue stack annoying to use, and any type of recording to be difficult and/or not user-friendly(along the lines of the NSI MC 7024 that i started on)
> 
> however, it can be a workable solution, provided you have a computer that can run the smartsoft software and is readily available to use with the console.



That is kind of what I was saying by mentioning that I would not get one without having a computer available. Without the software, many things (patching, editing, etc.) are a PITA.


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## goblin1973 (Jan 14, 2010)

I have toured Australia the US and Canada, running a Jands Vista s3 with an M1 backup run by a mac book pro.

I have had no problems with this it has plenty of hardware and has been very stable for me.

I purchased this console so that on lower budget shows I can still have my own console.

I do however switch to MA on my larger budget shows as I also find this a great console and has far superior networking capabilities.


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