# How tall should my stage be?



## BillConnerFASTC (Feb 27, 2014)

I'm sure DVS Dave or one of his elfs will move this but thought I'd post here another article just published in Protocol.

http://www.lightingandsoundamerica.com/mailing/PLASAProtocol/PWinter14_StageHeight.pdf


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## SteveB (Feb 27, 2014)

Good article, Bill

One big question is, other then needing to install a fire curtain (preferable) or deluge system (not preferable but unavoidable under some codes), I'm curious if there are additional costs to breaking the 50ft rule that make additional height unaffordable ?.

I would think that a walkable grid, with an FC or deluge would be cheaper then installing cross stage catwalks, which as BTW, I have never seen in a theater outside of the Met Opera (theirs fly) ?). How useful in day-to-day op's are they ?, 

Thus do you think it's a trade back ?, eliminate the catwalks for height, which is tons more useful.

Having lived for 32 years now in a 2400 seat road house, with a 20x40 prosc., and a 42 ft grid, there's nothing more useful then the ability to fly out of sight line a 30 ft drop.

Thanks for posting




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## StradivariusBone (Feb 27, 2014)

Being a resident in a HS PAC with underhung blocks and no grid, I wish this article was written in the early 90's when they built this space!  Repairing a block becomes an act of God and congress combined. It took one of our spaces 3+ months to have one fixed.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Feb 27, 2014)

SteveB said:


> Good article, Bill
> 
> One big question is, other then needing to install a fire curtain (preferable) or deluge system (not preferable but unavoidable under some codes), I'm curious if there are additional costs to breaking the 50ft rule that make additional height unaffordable ?.
> 
> ...



This is at least a three pint conversation, not a short post.

There will be short stages and all I've done is try to talk about making that decision and secondly optimizing the 50'. I'd always prefer a 70' or higher high trim for a "real" stage, and certainly any road house stage - with a full walk on grid. I thought I said that in the article, though maybe not emphatically enough.

As far as cost, lost of costs go up when the stage goes past 50'. I'd say the first inch over 50 is probably $250,000 or more depending on size. After that not much. The walls all become 2 hour rated, doors 1 1/2 hour, no opening between stage and house that are not protected with a door, all ducts need fire dampers, and other construction will change. And height cost money. Not sure but cost of stage is probably close to proportional to the height - longer duct and conduit and wiring and roof drains, more weight so it ripples from foundation to tip of columns, affects drifting snow loads on adjacent roofs, and on.

As far as gridiron vs catwalks - I'm sure the three or four catwalks cost less or much less than a full grid and, of course, under 50' and the grid really impacts high trim. Start with structure - the catwalks gross area is much less - just checked a current project and 680 sq ft of catwalk and grid would be 3100 - so at 40 or 50 psf live load, bigger beams and columns and foundations, and just the walking surface. Plus we expect the grid to support loads and catwalks are just access - heavy steel channels vs. plywood decks. And fie sprinklers under gridiron, not required under 22" wide catwalks.

So, if you have to stay under 50' or some height less than near 70' plus full gridiron ht, maybe the catwalks provide a solution. I just refuse to mount rigging 50' in the air with no way to service and inspect it short of clearing the stage. laying planks, and renting a scissors lift.

That all said - no way a road house should be under 50' and be under hung without access. Bad design - but in your case I think you'd be better off with catwalks and a higher trim possible then the full gridiron. 

And I'm probably repeating but I really wanted to try to get people to think about real issues of what the height is for and what it allows and separating music uses and proscenium from drama and dance and lyric theatre. And that stupid 2 1/2 to 3 times mythical and miss-applied concept. Also I got tired or writing the letter and report and then spending hours in meetings discussing the issue so now I just send them a reprint and it saves a lot of time - at least I hope it will on one or two projects at least.


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## SteveB (Feb 27, 2014)

Bill,

It was a well written article and all your points came across clearly, but obviously there was no need in the article to have expanded on the issues related to +50 that you did here. 

In truth, I had no clue as to all the points you mention, 2hr., doors, etc.... a huge can of worms and as the article clearly points out, if you can program to a smaller height and save money, it's very good advice. 

But outside of the yearly rigging inspection, are the catwalks otherwise useful in a production sense ?. My first impression was not and that the grid space would be better used with additional linesets or winches. I would think that if they are useful, any reason you don't place them directly above the electrics ?, which generally don't need to travel to grid, and can't in any case, if there's a cable pickup. I do see that the curved ceiling panels need US/DS travel space and that the placement of the cat's "protects" that space. 

Curious as to the thought process. 

I as well have an interest in the 50ft. rule, as we were not grandfathered on a new facility that is re-using the old fly tower and that exceeds the 50ft. rule, thus we are getting (as per NYC code) a deluge system. We are very unhappy with it, especially as the space has an existing fire curtain, but it was a burdensome fight for ARUP to get NYC to issue an exemption. Now it's good to know some of the reasons for 50ft.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Feb 28, 2014)

Confession and necessity being the mother of invention: the cross stage catwalks or maybe better called a modified grid was a result of a prep school theater faculty wanting to have performers fly in from over stage - ala cirque. Thus I conceived this idea of catwalks laid over the dead zone created by shell ceilings to get performers up there and to allow some spot line rigging. What I discovered was they were great for service, maintenance, and installation. 

The problem with no access is if you hear a squeak or rub and can't check it out, all you can do is pray. I'd rather that in a few minutes you could get up close to the noise and touch it and know what the problem is or isn't.

Depending on shell requirements, its usually three with shell under and one - up stage - with sky drop electric. Others get four shells - either 8'-0" or 7'-4" on center. Shells lend themselves to uniform spacing more than electrics and I like to get that first electric as far downstage as possible and probably tighter to the main than the catwalk would allow.

The catwalks have been useful for sorting out traveler track issues - fly to high trim and the track is at perfect working height - much easier and safer than burying the traveler on the deck.


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## derekleffew (Feb 28, 2014)

1986. Royal-George Theatre. Chicago.


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## SteveB (Feb 28, 2014)

Interesting discussion, thanks Mike


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## zmb (Feb 28, 2014)

I know many schools around where I am are purposefully build right upto to the maximum height before a fire curtain and other code requirements kick in. Or to highest height that a manlift can be used to install rigging without needing a grid.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Feb 28, 2014)

derekleffew said:


> 1986. Royal-George Theatre. Chicago.


20' grid - what does this mean?


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## BillConnerFASTC (Feb 28, 2014)

zmb said:


> I know many schools around where I am are purposefully build right upto to the maximum height before a fire curtain and other code requirements kick in. Or to highest height that a manlift can be used to install rigging without needing a grid.


You betcha! The fire safety curtain and separation from stage from house. Is this better or worse than when code required those things when something was "retractable", horizontally or vertically? And before that the criteria was stage ceiling/roof more than 5' above proscenium? (Didn't take ling to figure out you could have a 70' proscenium with a 50' high border.) I personally liked the earlier "full working stage" which was clear to me.

Deciding factor was that fire sprinklers are proven effective to 50'. Which should have made stages to 70' OK because a stage fire in an occupied theatre has always started above the over stage lights, but could never have made that case.


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## Jay Ashworth (Feb 28, 2014)

For the record, Bill, this thread illustrates some of the weaknesses in the wiki-based glossary better than any one I have yet seen.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Mar 1, 2014)

Jay Ashworth said:


> For the record, Bill, this thread illustrates some of the weaknesses in the wiki-based glossary better than any one I have yet seen.


Context and subtlty - why I'm not worried by being replaced by a machine.


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## AlexDonkle (Mar 1, 2014)

BillConnerASTC said:


> Context and subtlety - why I'm not worried by being replaced by a machine.



So we shouldn't expect to see "Bill Conner - The App" appear in the Apple store anytime soon?


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## BillConnerFASTC (Mar 2, 2014)

I don't know. Think I could sell my services on the internet? Sightlines for $10/seat? Rigging system design by the lineset? 

The fact is, I don't even regularly use "standard" spread sheets or other such formula based methods. I kind of like reinventing the process each time, and discover something new.


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## AlexDonkle (May 18, 2014)

Bill - Any chance you have photos of one the smaller theatres where they opted for a lighting catwalk at 20' above the stage? Seems like an interesting way to avoid a dead hung stage since most schools don't want to let students hang lights from a ladder, but I'm curious how what it looks like when finished (I'm it's pretty unique).


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## BillConnerFASTC (May 18, 2014)

adonkle said:


> Bill - Any chance you have photos of one the smaller theatres where they opted for a lighting catwalk at 20' above the stage? Seems like an interesting way to avoid a dead hung stage since most schools don't want to let students hang lights from a ladder, but I'm curious how what it looks like when finished (I'm it's pretty unique).


I'll look. Lots of drawings, harder to photograph. Nothing in HI either. Probably an over site but none on my website either.


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## AlexDonkle (May 21, 2014)

Haha, not surprising, the only way Hawaii typically does theatre renovations is after a disaster (1 HS had it's roof collapse last year, and a middle school theatre has a flooding problem where a river runs through the house whenever it rains...). The only real theatre that's been built in the state for the last several years was the Seabury Hall Creative Arts Center on Maui last year. 

And thanks for looking!


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