# Handling a Fall



## Amiers (Nov 20, 2016)

So, today we had a customer during intermission fall because they missed a step, full lights up as well as seating lights.

Video proof shows clearly what happen yet they are blaming my floor cabling which were completely untouched. 

Cable was just indoor zip cord triple taped down. 

Moving the cables cause I was asked but outside of that what's the recourse? 

I can only proof so much but can't control accidents.


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## RonHebbard (Nov 20, 2016)

Amiers said:


> So, today we had a customer during intermission fall because they missed a step, full lights up as well as seating lights.
> 
> Video proof shows clearly what happen yet they are blaming my floor cabling which were completely untouched.
> 
> ...


If they get grumpy with you, tell them be glad they're not horses cuz you know what happens to horses that fall and can't get up by themselves.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Nov 20, 2016)

A bump or level change of as little as 1/8" is proven to be a hazard. I can easily imagine that even a couple small cables under tape is a trip hazard. I find those across aisle accesways ( rows) to be especially tricky because they are hard to see.

Did you have warning tape on it, the black and yellow caution tape? High contrast marking is recommended at all walking surface irregularities.


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## Amiers (Nov 20, 2016)

This was the area.




She was walking down the stairs and "tripped" on the blue. She missed the middle step but said that she tripped over the blue tapped down cable. Gaff first and bright blue masking tape to cover. 3 years running this is the first time someone has tripped parallel to the tape. 

I'm at a loss for words really.


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## RonHebbard (Nov 20, 2016)

Amiers said:


> This was the area.
> View attachment 14030
> 
> 
> ...


I'm blind and I like what you've done the way you have it. If, additionally, you had caution tape on top of your blue tape I'd find it an additional distraction and potential hazard which it doesn't appear to be. For me, never call attention to things that aren't a concern, they'd only serve to pull what little focus I have remaining away from real hazards I need to pay attention to. Again, I like it the way you have it and find it appropriate but then I'm a nobody without any initials following my name. (Granted I did have numbers following my name when I was still IATSE and IBEW.)
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.


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## Footer (Nov 20, 2016)

We do snake runs through the house. It gets tripple/quad taped and floro orange gaff on top of that. Depending on the show (and if the show is carrying a Clair rig) FOH snakes can get rather large. Never had a tripping issue with it.

For your issue some kind of real high vis tape really should be there. After that, its the job of your insurance company to fight it out, not you. Not really sure if I would be posting this kind of thing on the open internet......


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## MikeJ (Nov 20, 2016)

Brush it off. Be insured. People will sue you no matter how diligent you are. Let the insurance companies lawyers deal with it.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Nov 21, 2016)

It's not a question of diligence but one of a documented fall hazard. The building and fire codes set 3/16" as the limit. 20 or so years ago the cost to society from falls was estimated - based on emergency room and hospital admissions - was 10 times the cost of injuries from vehicular incidents. I'd guess it's increased as cars seem safer today. (Thank the Canadians for this research.) Make the case to the building owners - management - that a safe solution is possible and worth it.


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## Wheezy (Nov 21, 2016)

Bill, what is the 3/16" in reference to, the cable crossing?

Even though the stairs look within code, I have a problem with inconsistent tread depth. Even though it's not necessarily required, I like to see railings anytime tread depths are not consistent.

Is there a possibility of moving the cable run overhead?


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## Amiers (Nov 21, 2016)

There is a handrail on the wall. Its just not pictured. 

Footer, I believe Dave has this Thread Section hidden from normal public view, only reason I posted it in here.

Bill I would love to see that code or if you have the numbers of the code so I could look it up. The cord was laid flat so it hovers around the 3/16 mark the tape might bring it up and be the variance.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Nov 21, 2016)

I believe it's in the Life Safety Code and International Building Code among others. I'll try to cut and paste later today.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Nov 21, 2016)

I was wrong - 1/4" is code. I've seen research that suggests 1/8 of an inch.

Life Safety Code:
7.1.6 Walking Surfaces in the Means of Egress.
7.1.6.1 General.
7.1.6.1.1 Walking surfaces in the means of egress shall comply with 7.1.6.2 through 7.1.6.4.
7.1.6.1.2 Approved existing walking surfaces shall be permitted.
7.1.6.2 Changes in Elevation. Abrupt changes in elevation of walking surfaces shall not exceed 1⁄4 in. (6.3 mm). Changes in elevation exceeding 1⁄4 in. (6.3 mm), but not exceeding 1⁄2 in. (13 mm), shall be beveled with a slope of 1 in 2. Changes in elevation exceeding 1⁄2 in. (13 mm) shall be considered a change in level and shall be subject to the requirements of 7.1.7.

Might check: https://nfsi.org/nfsi-research/quick-facts/

Looking for another piece on this - but rushing on deadline before Thanksgiving and then gone - about the only holiday I take all year.


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## Amiers (Nov 21, 2016)

That is plenty of info and gives me something to go on. You could of just given me the codes. 

Thanks a ton.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Nov 21, 2016)

Amiers said:


> That is plenty of info and gives me something to go on. You could of just given me the codes.
> 
> Thanks a ton.


I keep the pdfs open I use them so much so was easy to clip and paste. That was the 2015 edition but I don't believe that section has changed for several cycles but may check - as I thought it had been 3/16". Thats the stair tread and riser tolerance. I didn't find a similar section in IBC or IFC.


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## Amiers (Nov 21, 2016)

Ah well I spent a good hour looking through the IBC just to cross reference the LSC but couldn't find anything in it except the riser bit. 

The life safety code should suffice if something does happen. 

Again thanks Bill.


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## porkchop (Nov 21, 2016)

I think diving into code and digging one's heals in about fault might be counter productive here. First off, I agree that it would be quite a feat to trip over well dressed, small diameter cable running parallel to the direction of travel. That fact aside, as soon as all of the patron's immediate first aid needs are taken care of (keeping in mind CPR can't fix pride) any further actions necessary to "make this situation right" need to be handled through some kind of legal counsel. It sounds cold and corporate, but a good customer service person is likely to mistakenly admit to fault which could easily compound the issue. Unless there is some kind of injury that will result in compensation the question of if your cable run is up to code is irrelevant. The customer thinks they tripped, you can help them up and make sure they make it to their seat safely, but if they want to make a larger issue out there's not much that technical staff can do to help the situation after the fact.

The more frustrating part is I think you're compelled to do something to "fix" the situation despite having done it correctly the first time. This accident exists and even if the guest eventually agrees it was an accident and nothing comes of it, if in the future someone asks what was done to prevent this from happening again one of the worst possible answers is to say you did nothing. That's not to say that you need to completely rerun your cable or post extra ushers every night to catch the one patron that trips every 20 years, but should another incident happen in the future having the ability to say you did something (even as small as using more high-vis tape or posting a "watch your step" sign that no one will read) could do a lot to protect everyone involved on your end.


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## Amiers (Nov 22, 2016)

Everything was handled well, and pretty quickly. ice and apologies. 

The only reason for code is incase it does go further and have to provide something to the boss. I wish I could say I'm just the technical staff only. My position here is rather odd and to put it nicely multifunctional. 

Something was done. It wasn't my choice. I will update the thread after the show this morning.


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## Amiers (Nov 23, 2016)

Things got crazy yesterday but here is the picture. This wasn't my design or build. My choice was to just carpet the steps and run my wires that way, as there weren't that many cause in reality the concrete can get slippery even up their the sand finds it way. So it would of killed two birds with one stone.


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## danTt (Nov 26, 2016)

What was the zip cord being used for? Depending on your fire marshal--and the use, you may be opening another can of worms by using it.


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## Amiers (Nov 26, 2016)

The Garland is lined with Christmas lights.


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## dvsDave (Dec 6, 2016)

Amiers said:


> Footer, I believe Dave has this Thread Section hidden from normal public view, only reason I posted it in here.



The Safety forum is not accessible to Guests (non-members) nor is it indexed by Google. It's not truly "hidden" in that anyone can sign up and see it, but it's not facing the street either.


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