# Re-opening Procedure after Covid-19



## Jeffrey Richardson (May 5, 2020)

Our university just announced that we are fully expecting to re-open with students on campus this fall (Aug. 16th). I have been tasked with creating the procedure for we how will be able to support all of our normal orientation events in a "safe" manner. I have already come up with a list of PPE for our employees including masks, gloves, sanitizer etc. But I am wondering what sort of procedures and changes people are making in order to accommodate future events.

My building is 500 seats and as of right now we are working to come up with a new usher and house manager manual to direct groups to sit at a social distance, we are also working on the assumption that we will not be able to hold all 500 people, likely closer to 250 max, even down to 125 at a time (if we assume 25%). I have also been working with our reps to get information on sanitizing fog fluid to use overnight between events
(  )
and other new releases that could benefit us during this situation. At this point, we are only trying to address FOH concerns as we don't have events that utilize the backstage areas until later in September.

Thanks in advance for everyone's input!


----------



## rsmentele (May 5, 2020)

I would love to see any laboratory findings as to the effectiveness of this solution. I haven't seen any yet.

Please post anything you find!


----------



## Jeffrey Richardson (May 5, 2020)

Attached is all of the information I have been sent by our reps, it looks like it has been approved on various things but we are just looking at it as a possible option in conjunction with a lot of other procedures. At this point, if it doesn't hurt, it's worth looking at right?


----------



## sk8rsdad (May 5, 2020)

Jeffrey Richardson said:


> Attached is all of the information I have been sent by our reps



Thanks for the information. A quick perusal didn't find any results on effectiveness as an antiviral. The tests all seem to be as an antibacterial.

My $.02 on the "if it doesn't hurt" hypothesis include thoughts like:

does it instill a false sense of security?
does prolonged and/or repeated use lead to any damage to the people and/or surfaces to which it is applied?


----------



## egilson1 (May 5, 2020)

I would STRONGLY suggest you look into hiring an outside consultant to help created your procedure or delay until resources like the ESA release guidance. The liability fallout of an outbreak will be disastrous and at this point there is insufficient data for the average "user" to develop a reliable and effective plan. This is not in any way a comment on your personal ability or qualification, but rather that even the experts in public health crisis don't yet agree on what works.


----------



## Jeffrey Richardson (May 5, 2020)

egilson1 said:


> I would STRONGLY suggest you look into hiring an outside consultant to help created your procedure or delay until resources like the ESA release guidance. The liability fallout of an outbreak will be disastrous and at this point there is insufficient data for the average "user" to develop a reliable and effective plan. This is not in any way a comment on your personal ability or qualification, but rather that even the experts in public health crisis don't yet agree on what works.


I don't want anyone to think I am in any way doing all of it on my own. As the building "expert" my job is to make building specific recommendations and recommendations to events, but my university has a task force of around 40 qualified internal and external experts who make the final decisions. 

As I did not see any re-opening post COVID threads I wanted to start one to get people's opinions throughout the coming weeks/months.


----------



## mrtrudeau23 (May 5, 2020)

The company my mom works for has been hiring a service to come in to clean the office via electrostatic disinfection. I don't know much about it, but this company's website has a decent explanation. Might be worth a look for large-scale theater cleaning.


----------



## Gobokat (May 5, 2020)

Jeffrey Richardson said:


> Our university just announced that we are fully expecting to re-open with students on campus this fall (Aug. 16th). I have been tasked with creating the procedure for we how will be able to support all of our normal orientation events in a "safe" manner. At this point, we are only trying to address FOH concerns as we don't have events that utilize the backstage areas until later in September.
> 
> Thanks in advance for everyone's input!



I think your instinct to begin looking at capacity is a great way to start. If you have your auditorium on CAD try placing 6 foot diamter hexagons around seats and see how many seats/row and row/section you can use while maintaining the current 6 foot spacing recommendation. That will give you a sense of how many attendees you'll most likely be dealing with. Fun questions are of course how do you mark the seats clearly, and how do you deal with cohabiting couples who don't need to maintain these spacings, but then throw off the rest of the room's spacing? 
Then as far as ushers you will of course be providing some level of masking and instructing them on the use of hand sanitizer between every time they touch anything and the next thing. Yes, they look at the ticket, they hand sanitize before they touch the next ticket, and so on. No, gloves aren't the answer unless they're being changed after each touch. the point is to stop spreading potential virus between patrons, so touching one person's ticket, then the next person's ticket just transferred between the tickets. Maybe this is a good time to go to scanners and bar codes?
And post event re-sterilization. . . what is the time between occupancy in the room? Over 72 hours you may not need to do much more than spray down arm rests and handrails, and door latches with a good (covid listed) disinfectant spray.
But what about your set up crew? they'll need to clean up after they set for the event and the presenters will need guidelines on the proper practice to avoid spreading among themselves.
The final point to consider is what will have to be done just to provide a sense of security even if it doesn't actually increase the odds against spreading the virus.

sorry - this is a lot to read through, I know, but at the moment I am finding for some reason I have a lot of time to type.


----------



## Jeffrey Richardson (May 6, 2020)

This was sent to me by one of the other local theaters in town, looks like the first real opening plan I have seen from a Theater, thoughts?








New Concert Suggests How Post-COVID-19 Seating Charts Might Work

A solo concert by Travis McCready of Bishop Gunn in May 2020 could show how live performances will work in a post-COVID-19 world.



ultimateclassicrock.com


----------



## NJJerrySmith (May 6, 2020)

Here's another example, using the Boston Philharmonic, looking at the realities and economics of opening back up while still social distancing.

https://www.middleclassartist.com/p...ience-attendance-is-the-least-of-our-problems

To quote the article

> The following spatial and financial analysis will show that socially distancing a large concert hall would likely be a financial catastrophe for a presenter:
> 
> A 2,600-seat hall, under social distancing, may only seat fewer than 500.
> If [Boston Pihilharmoic] audience attendance holds at 2018 numbers, only about 25% of the audience could fit in a socially-distanced symphony hall. That is a mandated drop of 75% in audience attendance, not even taking into account the public’s attitudes towards attending socially distanced performances.
> To break-even with last year’s ticket revenue over the same number of concerts, based on the lowered attendance ceiling, a company would have to charge more than four times the price of last year’s tickets.


----------



## JohnD (May 6, 2020)

In case you haven't seen this yet, I am sure that @TimMc has already cross-posted this from PSWforums somewhere here:







Working in a COVID-19 Production World — Practical Show Tech





practicalshowtechcom.squarespace.com


----------



## Footer (May 6, 2020)

Personally, I think all this is a nice discussion... but just like all the restrants that are opening that are empty I think we'll be in the same boat. I don't see a world where people come to shows even with all this stuff in place. Shows will be more expensive to produce and make less money. One breakout traced back to a theatre and the whole thing is shot. We'll need legit guidance from government on this. In my state I think the guidance will be "stay closed". I would go at this the other way, write up what a "normal" day looks like, hand that to your public health expert, and see what they come back with.


----------



## macsound (May 6, 2020)

I think the seating issue probably will be more about how people purchase tickets. If you get all groups of 2 it will layout differently than groups of 3,4,5, or 6. 
Assuringly also, you won't be able to choose your exact seats, only the tier. A group a 6 may be more effectively laid out 3+3 in front of each other to better utilize the space, but the purchaser, phone rep and website wouldn't know that at the time or sale.


----------



## mrtrudeau23 (May 7, 2020)

Investing in the ticket scanners is a good way to go. Doesn't require any passage of materials between ushers and patrons. Or some sort of online check-in when the patrons are at the theater? Also, since most everyone has a smart phone, a digital copy of the program for the show that people can read on their devices from a website, or setting up a projector in the house so patrons can view the program that way. I agree that seating is the largest issue. Dealing with couples and families throws the whole 6' distancing thing out the window as far as planning goes. I also agree with @Footer that one case traced back to a theater is going to shut it all down immediately for that area at the very least, but more likely everywhere. It will sadly be a long time before most people feel comfortable coming back to a theater, even with all these precautions in place.


----------



## theatricalmatt (May 7, 2020)

I don't know of any ticketing software that currently does this; but seat assignments don't have to be locked in until just before doors open. Patrons might be able to choose some specifics about their seating arrangement -- VIP, mezz, orchestra; aisle seating or ADA access for those with mobility issues -- but it's less important whether exact seat they're in. Rather than assign seats as patrons purchase them, develop a model based on best social distancing practices that then updates whenever tickets are purchased. The exact seating arrangement can be fluid until just before doors open. At the time of purchase, the patron only knows they have ticket #001408 for the show; when they arrive, an usher scans in their ticket and it gets translated into seat E-04.

The real challenge is that American theater culture is based around just-in-time or late arrivals. Student rush discounts are the norm for every theater I've worked for, as are late seating arrangements. Some theater companies have suggested assigned, staggered arrival times (to keep ticket and concession lines short), but that seems like a very strong shift in how people experience theater.


----------



## BillConnerFASTC (May 7, 2020)

Actor's Equity is looking ahead - https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/n...a-chief-help-reboot-live-stage-safely-1291948


----------



## spenserh (May 7, 2020)

Jeffrey Richardson said:


> My building is 500 seats and as of right now we are working to come up with a new usher and house manager manual to direct groups to sit at a social distance, we are also working on the assumption that we will not be able to hold all 500 people, likely closer to 250 max, even down to 125 at a time (if we assume 25%).



I think you might even be a bit high at 25%, we did a few different scenarios in our 1208-seat theatre and the highest number we could arrive at while maintaining a 6-foot space was 210, that works out to about 17%.


----------



## BillConnerFASTC (May 7, 2020)

spenserh said:


> I think you might even be a bit high at 25%, we did a few different scenarios in our 1208-seat theatre and the highest number we could arrive at while maintaining a 6-foot space was 210, that works out to about 17%.


Was that all individuals each 6' one from another or some groups of 2, 3, or 4? I assume start with every other row - usually 3' row to row - and then 4 empty seats between. It would be interesting to see how how large and obnoxious sneeze shields between some seats would be. Maybe a piece that attaches at the center of one intervening seat.

Do you have to maintain the 6' during ingress and egress? I assume so. 

At least in NYS, the rule seems to suggest face masks when social distancing - 6' - is not possible. So can people sit closer than 6' from another group if they wear masks? (Could severely curtail alcohol sales even more.)


----------



## egilson1 (May 7, 2020)

small tidbit. If you are doing layout for maintaining a six foot distance between people, you should be using a 3' diameter circle (or what ever shape you prefer) and not a 6' diameter one. heck, if you want to get real nitty gritty, you might consider 3.5' to account for the fact that people are finally small like a dot in the middle of that circle. point being a 6' diameter circle would get you a 12' distance between two people.


----------



## BillConnerFASTC (May 7, 2020)

And then there is the question is 6' really enough? Walking past someone (holding my breath) versus being seated and stationery for a period of time? Really the same distance? It's unfortunate there is some science missing in a lot of this. I seem to recall that at the beginning, face masks were somewhat discredited. That changed. (I feel quite safe when in my canoe, maybe a mile from anyone else.)


----------



## sk8rsdad (May 7, 2020)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> (I feel quite safe when in my canoe, maybe a mile from anyone else.)



Regrettably, you can't launch your canoe from a public park or boat lauch in my neck of the woods. It's a $880 dollar fine. I am hopeful the restriction will be eased later this month.


----------



## BillConnerFASTC (May 7, 2020)

Marinas and designated boat launches are officially open in NYS. Not sure what I use is actually called a boat launch. Just the bank of a creek I can walk to from parking area. Works just fine.

Yeah, it sucks that Ontario is closed to canoeing. Seems downright un-Canadian. And I heard from a lot of very unhappy Yanks that are very upset they can't go to Quetico PP. Like what could be more socially distant than a few hundred people in more than 1.1 million acres of wilderness? Luckily, I now have the Adirondacks.


----------



## Doug Lowthian (May 7, 2020)

Socially distancing audiences presents some creative possibilities for problem solving. However, what about casts and crew? A solo show or an orchestra where people pretty much stay in the same spot for the duration is one thing but a play or musical with a cast of 10, 20 or more? How does one do blocking with every cast member 6 ft apart? Or deal with the inevitable sound issues of trying to project or sing with a mask on. Well endowed professional theater companies may come up with some technological or complex solutions but what about college, high school, or community theater?
Our community theater had to cancel a youth production of Pinocchio just a week before opening night due to Covid19. I can't think of any practical way to run a play with a cast of 20 in the near future, like the next year or more.

Thoughts?


----------



## theatricalmatt (May 7, 2020)

Doug -- In my experience, high school and especially college productions are the ones that can afford to experiment, as they don't have to worry about financial support or critical reception.

The 'first wave' of responses seem to be to try and shift shows to 'online performances' via Zoom or other platforms. The results I've seen often resemble a collection of monologues rather than an integrated production. I strongly suspect the Fall offerings will step more toward television- and film-like productions; but it means integrating a skill set that most theatre folk haven't grasped yet.

Another alternative, which also helps deal with social-distancing audiences in live performances, is to simultaneously livestream performances for Internet consumption.


----------



## BillConnerFASTC (May 7, 2020)

It's true you can only do so many A Midsummer Night's Dreams in a 2001 Space Odyssey motif, complete with space suits. (How odd to say 2001 and we're really not there in 2020.)

I am inclined to think we won't see much "theatre" for a long while, probably not until a proven vaccine is developed and delivered everywhere, which may be well into 2021 or beyond. Maybe sooner, but don't count on it. I expect churches won't wait and will be the cause for some outbreaks. I hate to be so pessimistic but I suspect some of the states trying to reopen now will show increased cases - and deaths - in a few weeks and set this whole recovery back.


----------



## sk8rsdad (May 7, 2020)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> Like what could be more socially distant than a few hundred people in more than 1.1 million acres of wilderness?


The justification is they'd rather not have to devote resources to wilderness rescue when they are needed for other things. There's some truth to that. A couple of weeks ago some kayakers (and I use the term loosely) got themselves into trouble paddling flatwater on the Ottawa River.


----------



## BillConnerFASTC (May 7, 2020)

I understand. Just seems ironic. I'm just glad I can get out. County population of 120,000, 62 diagnosed cases, 58 recoverd and released, no deaths.


----------



## FMEng (May 8, 2020)

The problem we're facing is that we need scientifically solid guidance on how to open various kinds of business activity. The problem is that the CDC is being hamstrung by politics. They have written guidance only to have the White House edit and water down their efforts before releasing it. At this point, we have to hope that state and local health officials are accurate and independent sources of information.

As for me, heck no I'm not going to the barber when they open.


----------



## TimMc (May 8, 2020)

FMEng said:


> The problem we're facing is that we need scientifically solid guidance on how to open various kinds of business activity. The problem is that the CDC is being hamstrung by politics. They have written guidance only to have the White House edit and water down their efforts before releasing it. At this point, we have to hope that state and local health officials are accurate and independent sources of information.
> 
> As for me, heck no I'm not going to the barber when they open.


I have a copy of the CDC re-opening guidance that was downloaded from DocumentCloud. I've attached to this post. Also have the CT Arts, Culture & Industry guide as PDF, I think it was linked in another thread here at CB.

The guidance is beginning to emerge but only time will tell if the inevitable near-term increase in infections were mitigated by the guidance, or if the guidance was ignored or ineffectively implemented.


----------



## Catherder (May 8, 2020)

Looking at the schools section it seems like theater programs, especially ones (like mine) that are heavily volunteer dependent, will be among the last things to restart. Which is about what I figured. Reopen in the fall but only for classroom activities, with students, teachers, and essential staff. No extracurriculars until much later in the year, if at all.


----------



## TimMc (May 8, 2020)

Catherder said:


> Looking at the schools section it seems like theater programs, especially ones (like mine) that are heavily volunteer dependent, will be among the last things to restart. Which is about what I figured. Reopen in the fall but only for classroom activities, with students, teachers, and essential staff. No extracurriculars until much later in the year, if at all.


Presuming Wave 1.5 doesn't deter folks and the 2nd wave of coronavirus infections is not on the scale of the first... well, who knows for sure... but yeah, unless the hospitals are in danger of running out of ICU and morgue space, my guess is by the 1 year point, political leaders of currently afflicted nations will have calculated how many people in what demographic groups are likely to die and will have made decisions about the financial and political consequenses of letting that just happen. A kind of passive genocide where 'mother nature' can be blamed.


----------



## FMEng (May 8, 2020)

TimMc said:


> Presuming Wave 1.5 doesn't deter folks and the 2nd wave of coronavirus infections is not on the scale of the first... well, who knows for sure... but yeah, unless the hospitals are in danger of running out of ICU and morgue space, my guess is by the 1 year point, political leaders of currently afflicted nations will have calculated how many people in what demographic groups are likely to die and will have made decisions about the financial and political consequenses of letting that just happen. A kind of passive genocide where 'mother nature' can be blamed.


Warning: Biased, political comments coming.  I hate to say it, but it's already happened. Trump has made the calculation that minorities and and people living in densely populated, blue states don't vote for him, and they are experiencing the highest mortality rates. Rich, white people and those living in farm country vote for Trump, and their mortality rate is the lowest. Therefore, he can take more risk to save his beloved economy. And, when it goes sideways, which it will, he'll blame the blue state governors (and Obama, Pelosi, the Chinese, the WHO). We're all cannon fodder for the campaign.


----------



## TimMc (May 9, 2020)

Such logic would work best in swing states, but a whole lot more New Yorkers, Los Angelinos, San Franciscans and Chicagoans will have to die before it would change the electoral balance in blue counties or most blue states.

He doesn't need real people to blame, he can stand at the lectern and say "notme did it!"


----------



## josh88 (May 11, 2020)

The Event Safety Alliance is supposed to be publishing a restart guide that they've worked on some time today (monday 5/11). I"ll be interested to see what it says.


----------



## Jeffrey Richardson (May 11, 2020)

The ESA just released their Guidelines; I would highly recommend reading it.





ESA Reopening Guide — Event Safety Alliance





www.eventsafetyalliance.org


----------



## spenserh (May 11, 2020)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> Was that all individuals each 6' one from another or some groups of 2, 3, or 4? I assume start with every other row - usually 3' row to row - and then 4 empty seats between. It would be interesting to see how how large and obnoxious sneeze shields between some seats would be. Maybe a piece that attaches at the center of one intervening seat.
> 
> Do you have to maintain the 6' during ingress and egress? I assume so.
> 
> At least in NYS, the rule seems to suggest face masks when social distancing - 6' - is not possible. So can people sit closer than 6' from another group if they wear masks? (Could severely curtail alcohol sales even more.)



This was based on every individual being seated 6 feet from the next. ESA just released their Reopening Guidelines, and there is language about related and unrelated groups, which gives me hope that things may not be as bad as they currently seem.

We've discussed increasing the length of time between house opening and curtain, to help with social distancing. We also discussed keeping the lobby closed until the house is ready to open.

ESA has suggested that face masks should be mandatory, at least in the short term.

Either way, it will be a long time before we can pack 1200 people into our space.


----------



## BillConnerFASTC (May 11, 2020)

I don't expect most assembly activity - performing arts, sports, worship, political rallies (not such a loss perhaps) - until at least 2021 - and maybe well into it. Really needs immunity - either natural or vaccine -and that seems far off.


----------



## What Rigger? (May 11, 2020)

Event Safety Alliance just published a document today about this. I believe a link to it is on the CB Facebook page. While not comprehensive, it's a really solid jumping off point.


----------



## JohnD (May 11, 2020)

Well, here is one live concert coming up,
Travis Mc live in Arkansas


----------



## NJJerrySmith (May 12, 2020)

> IN ORDER TO MEET CDC GUIDELINES AND TO INSURE THE SAFETY OF TICKET BUYERS TICKETS WILL BE SOLD IN GROUPS FOR EACH TICKET BUYERS POD OR GROUP. THEY CAN PURCHASED IN THE GROUPS OF THE FOLLOWING: 2,4,6,8,12 AND 13. TICKETS ARE LIMITED THERE WILL BE *NO SINGLE SEATS AVAILABLE*.


 (Emphasis mine)

I suspect we will see many policies like this when we start back up. I don't know how I feel about no single seats being available though...


----------



## BillConnerFASTC (May 12, 2020)

Advertise matchmaking services with tickets.


----------



## StradivariusBone (May 13, 2020)

Even then it's going to be a seachange in cultural attitudes. Walking through the grocery store the other day I had to laugh at the fellow wearing the bright yellow "Don't Tread on Me" shirt without a mask going the wrong way down the aisle. 

Tread on others as you would like to be tread upon seems more apt and more useful. I have no doubt that no amount of spike tape will prevent my patrons from sitting wherever the hell they want.


----------



## Hansentd (May 13, 2020)

The problem of distancing will be most -well- problematic in getting in and out. 
Even if you only sell 1 of every 4 seats in a row- does that allow the person in the middle to get out without climbing over the rest of the row? Most aisles aren't even 6ft wide. And how many people is the lobby going to be able to hold?
Not to be totally doom and gloom- audiences are also going to need to get used to a new way of doing things. Timed entry is something I'm seeing a lot of people talk about- where people wait outside (probably in their cars) until it's their section/row's turn to seat. How this works with late seating or people going to the bathroom is a yet-other-level of complexity.

I think this is a great discussion BTW- I'm not trying to say we're never going to have a show until we have a vaccine.
We're not going to get some kind of perfect plan gifted to us from on high. People are going to have to be cautious and use best judgement. 
And when there is an event that spreads a bunch of new infections- the people putting on that event are going to have to explain what they were thinking.


----------



## Calc (May 13, 2020)

StradivariusBone said:


> I have no doubt that no amount of spike tape will prevent my patrons from sitting wherever the hell they want.


We already fought with this for our (usual) commencements. We park a couple projectors on a mezzanine at the top of bleacher seating, and tape off seats two rows in front to prevent people from blocking the projector and getting odd tans on the top of their heads. Tape won't work. Signs don't help. If they want to sit there, they'll do it. Our current setup is to ratchet strap AV carts into the seats, and cover the whole thing with a couple taped-down tablecloths to hide it's workings. Marginally works, but they still try to scoot it to the side and sit next to it.
I can't imagine how this all is possibly going to work without a mass change-of-attitude from the patrons.
I'd also note that this WAS thought of in the ESA plan mentioned above. They mention the social aspect of getting people on your side, and start to outline how to 'sell' safety to the crowd.


----------



## FMEng (May 13, 2020)

Governor's orders don't apply to Native American tribes. A huge, tribal casino opened north of Seattle today, and the news showed a line of cars way down the road. To the tribe's credit, it looked like they were taking precautions of increasing spacing and limiting the number of people allowed in. No mention of masks being required or taking contact tracing info. Only time will tell if it works. Apparently, there are plenty of people willing to risk their health, and the health of their community, for some entertainment.


----------



## Kristi R-C (May 14, 2020)

Almost no one goes to see a show alone. Plan your seating charts in pairs.


----------



## Craig Hauber (May 14, 2020)

Footer said:


> Personally, I think all this is a nice discussion... but just like all the restrants that are opening that are empty I think we'll be in the same boat. I don't see a world where people come to shows even with all this stuff in place. Shows will be more expensive to produce and make less money. One breakout traced back to a theatre and the whole thing is shot. We'll need legit guidance from government on this. In my state I think the guidance will be "stay closed". I would go at this the other way, write up what a "normal" day looks like, hand that to your public health expert, and see what they come back with.


One major thing I think is being missed in this discussion is the types of shows you will be able to have when you have to apply social distancing to the cast and crew as well. 

One of the theatre co's I work with is a children's summer program and you won't be able to cram the 45 or more people and crew in and throughout the small backstage areas they have. 
Likewise no "waiting in the wings" or squeezing the orchestra into the pit. 
The booth also has 4 people in it and there's no way in that size to do that, so even more seating will be eaten up by moving video or sound out into the house.
Also what about large onstage group choreographed numbers? Will performers have to wear masks too? Do we have to have multiple intermissions to sterilize backstage and curtains between major movements?

You start trying to grasp all the implications (in all the free time you now have sitting around) and it makes you just want to give-up and go figure out another occupation!


----------



## BillConnerFASTC (May 14, 2020)

That ballet lift at 6' apart will be something. There will simply be a large segment of performing arts that should not be done. Solo and small ensemble where people can spread out a little maybe possible. Vocalists will reject the masks though perhaps not necessary as sufficient distance. No end to the challenges.

Hopefully there will be a vaccine eventually and immunity will last. Until then, public assembly seems risky.


----------



## RonHebbard (May 14, 2020)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> That ballet lift at 6' apart will be something. There will simply be a large segment of performing arts that should not be done. Solo and small ensemble where people can spread out a little maybe possible. Vocalists will reject the masks though perhaps not necessary as sufficient distance. No end to the challenges.
> 
> Hopefully there will be a vaccine eventually and immunity will last. Until then, public assembly seems risky.


Loving your ballet lift example!
Olympic tennis possibly; weight lifting likely; solo figure skating maybe; dance *no way*. 

Marching bands spread apart by 2 Metres; interesting, think of the synchronization problems due to the accumulated time lag over the length of any decent sized marching band. 
Toodleoo! 
Ron Hebbard


----------



## What Rigger? (May 15, 2020)

JohnD said:


> Well, here is one live concert coming up,
> Travis Mc live in Arkansas


This got shut down hard today. Why? Because they didn't get approval from the state health agency, it was scheduled for 3 days BEFORE the re-open start date, and no proof of any protocols in place. So the Governor said "No" and squashed it. To which I shed zero tears.


----------



## TimMc (May 15, 2020)

What Rigger? said:


> This got shut down hard today. Why? Because they didn't get approval from the state health agency, it was scheduled for 3 days BEFORE the re-open start date, and no proof of any protocols in place. So the Governor said "No" and squashed it. To which I shed zero tears.



Yes. The Arkansas Alcoholic Beverage Control Board told Temple Live they'd get their liquor license revoked and Temple decided maybe doing a show was a bad idea after all.


----------



## What Rigger? (May 16, 2020)

Perhaps beating a dead horse, but Lamb of God's Randy Blythe hits the nail on the head. Enforcing new behaviors may not fly at all in certain genre's. I mean, when I was in my teens/20's/30's, there was no way I listened to any venue's rules about "No moshing/No pits/No stage diving/No crowd surfing". I wanted it loud and aggro and the only guy in the world with the sack to actually stop a show, to stop the pit, was Fugazi's Ian Mackaye; he hated pits and would mock you for being a tough guy.








LAMB OF GOD's RANDY BLYTHE On Post-Coronavirus Life: 'I Don't Know If There Will Be Shows Until We Can Have Shows Normally'

LAMB OF GOD frontman Randy Blythe says that he is not sure what a post-pandemic world will look like for the touring industry. Concerts around the world have been canceled and postponed in efforts...



www.blabbermouth.net


----------



## JChenault (May 16, 2020)

egilson1 said:


> small tidbit. If you are doing layout for maintaining a six foot distance between people, you should be using a 3' diameter circle (or what ever shape you prefer) and not a 6' diameter one. heck, if you want to get real nitty gritty, you might consider 3.5' to account for the fact that people are finally small like a dot in the middle of that circle. point being a 6' diameter circle would get you a 12' distance between two people.



I think you mean a radius of 3 feet, not a diameter of 3 feet. ( and a circle with a radius of three feet has a diameter of 6 feet)


----------



## egilson1 (May 17, 2020)

JChenault said:


> I think you mean a radius of 3 feet, not a diameter of 3 feet. ( and a circle with a radius of three feet has a diameter of 6 feet)


Yes, sorry.


----------



## mbrown3039 (May 18, 2020)

egilson1 said:


> I would STRONGLY suggest you look into hiring an outside consultant to help created your procedure or delay until resources like the ESA release guidance. The liability fallout of an outbreak will be disastrous and at this point there is insufficient data for the average "user" to develop a reliable and effective plan. This is not in any way a comment on your personal ability or qualification, but rather that even the experts in public health crisis don't yet agree on what works.



We've developed a solution that is scalable to the size of the application and is both user friendly and effective; if dealing with larger groups of people who are entering all-at-once, the camera can scan up to 30 heads at the same time, helping you direct only those who might have a fever to secondary scanning; if you're in a smaller environment, then you may just need tablets.

If you're in the southern Nevada area, we can do an on-site demo of any/all the pieces. DM me if interested in more info, m


----------



## FMEng (May 19, 2020)

Checking temperatures of a mass of people seems like one of those things that makes us feel safer, but actually doesn't accomplish much. 

A virologist said today that people are most infectious with Covid-19 before they feel sick or have a temperature. That's the insidious and different thing about it. With other viruses, you can usually tell when you are contagious, and take precautions to prevent spreading it. This is what the anti-maskers and the open it all up gang refuse to understand.


----------



## mbrown3039 (May 19, 2020)

FMEng said:


> Checking temperatures of a mass of people seems like one of those things that makes us feel safer, but actually doesn't accomplish much.



Not the case at all. While a certain number of cases do present asymptomatically -- or, at least, without a fever as one of the symptoms -- the majority of cases seem to include an elevated temperature as an indicator. Additionally, an elevated temperature is still a reliable indicator of a whole host of other contagious diseases, so the system helps catch those folks, too. No system will be 100%, but using this type of technology is very effective; so much so, the FDA and CDC have published guidelines for it's use. Also, if you've flown to Asia (HK, Seoul, Tokyo, etc.) in the last ten years or so, one of these systems scanned you while you were waiting in the customs line...


----------



## BillConnerFASTC (May 19, 2020)

Sorry mbrown but WHO seems to side with FM on this. https://www.who.int/news-room/artic...ning alone, at,tracing of incoming travellers.

From that article "Temperature screening alone, at exit or entry, is not an effective way to stop international spread, since infected individuals may be in incubation period, may not express apparent symptoms early on in the course of the disease, or may dissimulate fever through the use of antipyretics; in addition, such measures require substantial investments for what may bear little benefits. It is more effective to provide prevention recommendation messages to travellers and to collect health declarations at arrival, with travellers’ contact details, to allow for a proper risk assessment and a possible contact tracing of incoming travellers."

Tough spot for some - either agree with WHO or side with Trump against WHO.


----------



## mbrown3039 (May 19, 2020)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> Sorry mbrown but WHO seems to side with FM on this. https://www.who.int/news-room/articles-detail/updated-who-recommendations-for-international-traffic-in-relation-to-covid-19-outbreak#:~:text=Temperature screening alone, at,tracing of incoming travellers.



That article specifically addresses the value of temperature screening as it relates to international travel, not re-opening procedures for entertainment venues in the US (or, apparently, meat-packing plants, auto factories, Amazon, warehouses, etc.). While it will not catch 100% of sick people (whether with CV19, SARS, MERS, the "common" flu or some other infectious disease), the medical fact remains that a fever is strong indicator that your body is fighting an infection of some sort. Using this type of systems provides the venue operator with more information than they would have without it, which allows them to make a more informed decision.

If I am planning a night on the town and I have a choice between two venues, one with thermal imaging tech and the other without, I am taking the one with the tech 100% of the time. m

*EDIT: If I am planning a night on the town and I have a choice between two venues that are both requiring masks and practicing distancing, deep cleaning measures, etc., but one has thermal imaging tech and the other does not, I am taking the one with the tech 100% of the time.


----------



## BillConnerFASTC (May 19, 2020)

mbrown3039 said:


> If I am planning a night on the town and I have a choice between two venues, one with thermal imaging tech and the other without, I am taking the one with the tech 100% of the time. m



I would look at what the others are doing before making that decision. For instance, if the all the place with thermal scanning does is thermal scanning, and the other place requires mask for customers and employees, provides for social distancing, shows evidence of regular deep cleaning, perhaps will offer on the spot testing in the near future, etc., the thermal scans are of little concern or value to me.

fms point that someone can be very contagious and not show signs, including temperature, is true in entertainment venues as well as travel.


----------



## mbrown3039 (May 19, 2020)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> I would look at what the others are doing before making that decision. For instance, if the all the place with thermal scanning does is thermal scanning, and the other place requires mask for customers and employees, provides for social distancing, shows evidence of regular deep cleaning, perhaps will offer on the spot testing in the near future, etc., the thermal scans are of little concern or value to me.
> 
> fms point that someone can be very contagious and not show signs, including temperature, is true in entertainment venues as well as travel.



Apologies -- I should've pointed out that I assume every venue will be doing the masks, deep cleaning, etc. So, if I were to edit my earlier post, I would say "all other responses being equal, I would choose the one with the tech 100% of the time."

And again, yes, not every person who is sick has a fever. But someone with a fever nearly always has an infection, so having the ability to detect those folks is always a plus and never a minus. m


----------



## BillConnerFASTC (May 19, 2020)

Let's hope that there is a rapid test that can detect the virus on the spot with high accuracy. Abbot's current 5 minute test seems to still have too many false negatives, but it seems to be improving. Likewise the saliva tests is reported in some journals as more accurate than the swabs. I don't know if audience would come to events perhaps hours in advance and wait to be tested before entering, and not sure how you protect them one form another before testing - I guess by requiring drive through so they are cleared before getting out of car.

As far as I can tell these tests can detect the virus immediately upon the person being exposed to it, but I don't know if someone not infected can carry it.


----------



## What Rigger? (May 19, 2020)

The gig in Arkansas was moved to a new date and has happened. I'm super curious to see what results from this, public health wise. 








Here's What the First Socially Distant Concert Looked Like | MetalSucks

Travis McCready performed the first socially distanced concert in the U.S. last night in Fort Smith, Arkansas, and here's what it looked like.



www.metalsucks.net


----------



## egilson1 (May 19, 2020)

mbrown3039 said:


> Not the case at all. While a certain number of cases do present asymptomatically -- or, at least, without a fever as one of the symptoms -- the majority of cases seem to include an elevated temperature as an indicator. Additionally, an elevated temperature is still a reliable indicator of a whole host of other contagious diseases, so the system helps catch those folks, too. No system will be 100%, but using this type of technology is very effective; so much so, the FDA and CDC have published guidelines for it's use. Also, if you've flown to Asia (HK, Seoul, Tokyo, etc.) in the last ten years or so, one of these systems scanned you while you were waiting in the customs line...



Your comment has the key to the issue with body temperature as an indicator. "the majority SEEM to include...". We don't know that. In fact the data is leaning to the potential that a majority of those who have been infected may NOT have a fever.


----------



## BillConnerFASTC (May 19, 2020)

What Rigger? said:


> The gig in Arkansas was moved to a new date and has happened. I'm super curious to see what results from this, public health wise.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That must be more than a little depressing for the performers. Thanks for posting.


----------



## mbrown3039 (May 20, 2020)

egilson1 said:


> Your comment has the key to the issue with body temperature as an indicator. "the majority SEEM to include...". We don't know that. In fact the data is leaning to the potential that a majority of those who have been infected may NOT have a fever.



I can't find any study that says that most of the people with CV19 don't ever have an elevated temperature -- where did you read that? m


----------



## Ted jones (May 20, 2020)

The ESA has just released a reopening guide. It's worth a read as a way to come up with event specific plans.


----------



## egilson1 (May 20, 2020)

mbrown3039 said:


> I can't find any study that says that most of the people with CV19 don't ever have an elevated temperature -- where did you read that? m



not hard to find.

start here







50 Percent of People with COVID-19 Aren't Aware They Have Virus

Experts say these carriers with no symptoms allow the virus to spread more quickly and more easily. It's one reason face masks have become more important.



www.healthline.com


----------



## mbrown3039 (May 21, 2020)

egilson1 said:


> not hard to find.
> 
> start here
> 
> ...



That's nearly a month old based on data that is even older. And, again, I'm not saying any system/procedure is 100% effective -- but wouldn't you rather have extra precautions than fewer...? m


----------



## sk8rsdad (May 21, 2020)

mbrown3039 said:


> but wouldn't you rather have extra precautions than fewer...?


If the extra precautions add more benefit than they cost then yes, otherwise probably not. Cost and benefit aren't necessarily measured in terms of money, although that's not a bad way to normalize the data. However, an additional precaution could cause more harm. If an added precaution causes a false sense of security it may reduce the use of another precaution that was actually more effective. Googling "Does extra testing do more harm than good" returns 139 million hits, so the jury is definitely out on making the claim that more is better.


----------



## mbrown3039 (May 21, 2020)

sk8rsdad said:


> If the extra precautions add more benefit than they cost then yes, otherwise probably not. Cost and benefit aren't necessarily measured in terms of money, although that's not a bad way to normalize the data. However, an additional precaution could cause more harm. If an added precaution causes a false sense of security it may reduce the use of another precaution that was actually more effective. Googling "Does extra testing do more harm than good" returns 139 million hits, so the jury is definitely out on making the claim that more is better.



Nonsense (and I mean that literally). Here's why I say that: 

1) Under discussion is a three-step process that will identify a person with an elevated temperature 99.99% of the time (it's probably better than that, because the odds of all three devices failing and/or malfunctioning at the same time have to be infinitesimally low);
2) "A fever is a temporary increase in your body temperature, often due to an illness. Having a fever is a sign that something out of the ordinary is going on in your body" (Mayo Clinic, retrieved today);
3) If a venue operator knows that someone -- whether guest or employee -- has an elevated temperature (and we recommend scanning for 100.4F or higher, which is the medical definition of a fewer), they now have the information they need to make an informed choice based on actual science, and not just blindly wipe everything with bleach and hope that's enough.

What is the cost to a venue operator if they become a nucleus of infections (or worse, deaths)? What if doing temperature checks allowed the venue to have 60% occupancy instead of only 30% - would it be worth it then? Would you value that extra 30% more (because it's easy to do the revenue math) than having some additional -- again, not a guarantee -- peace of mind based on science and not wishing/hoping? m


----------



## BillConnerFASTC (May 21, 2020)

I seem to see consistently that symptoms like fever may not appear for 2 to 14 days in a majority of people. The fever check therefore does not give me much confidence.


----------



## MNicolai (May 21, 2020)

FWIW, more of my construction sites are doing temperature checks and wrist bands for the day of the week. Every day you're on-site you get checked and get a wrist band for that day. It's not going to catch everyone, and it appears the virus may be more contagious before symptoms present, but it at least weeds out some of the obviously sick people. Employees are supposed to be wearing masks, but so far what I'm seeing is that the design team shows up wearing masks but the construction workers have masks but don't choose to actually wear them. Earlier in the week I was in a small storage closet with 8 people talking about where equipment mounts on the wall and only myself, my electrical engineer, and the architect were wearing masks.

My personal opinion is that something's better than nothing, but what serves as an acceptable indicator for allowing people to show up to work while also maintaining social distancing does not necessarily mean it's a substitute for social distancing and that you'll be able to increase audience capacities just because you have temp checks in place. You should still be distancing even with temp checks.


----------



## mbrown3039 (May 21, 2020)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> I seem to see consistently that symptoms like fever may not appear for 2 to 14 days in a majority of people. The fever check therefore does not give me much confidence.



That is correct, but the fever generally indicates when people are the most infectious (whether it's CV19, the "common" flu, measles, chicken pox, whatever). m


----------



## mbrown3039 (May 21, 2020)

MNicolai said:


> FWIW, more of my construction sites are doing temperature checks and wrist bands for the day of the week. Every day you're on-site you get checked and get a wrist band for that day. It's not going to catch everyone, and it appears the virus may be more contagious before symptoms present, but it at least weeds out some of the obviously sick people. Employees are supposed to be wearing masks, but so far what I'm seeing is that the design team shows up wearing masks but the construction workers have masks but don't choose to actually wear them. Earlier in the week I was in a small storage closet with 8 people talking about where equipment mounts on the wall and only myself, my electrical engineer, and the architect were wearing masks.
> 
> My personal opinion is that something's better than nothing, but what serves as an acceptable indicator for allowing people to show up to work while also maintaining social distancing does not necessarily mean it's a substitute for social distancing and that you'll be able to increase audience capacities just because you have temp checks in place. You should still be distancing even with temp checks.



The new OSHA guidelines are out -- form 3990 if you're interested.

The new CDC guideleins are also out, but it's 60 pages long and will take me a day or two to get through it. m


----------



## josh88 (May 21, 2020)

mbrown3039 said:


> That is correct, but the fever generally indicates when people are the most infectious (whether it's CV19, the "common" flu, measles, chicken pox, whatever). m


Most infectious vs infectious is kind of a moot point, you're infectious either way. Yes you might hit a peak somewhere that is detectable, but the whole point of contact tracing is once you are showing symptoms, its too late and you were at least harboring the virus and leaving potential points of infection, even if you're not actively spreading it person to person, and the likelihood of you having already infected someone before you show a fever or symptoms is reasonable assumption. I was just listening to an NPR report today about another study that backs what Bill is saying and that airports are wanting TSA to do temperature screenings but that that the impact is minimal, and thats one of the reasons TSA is pushing back and trying to get the airports to implement it themselves if they want to. They don't want to waste the time or money when it isn't a real reliable measure.

I'm all about as many safeguards as possible, but a big expenditure for thermal cameras and or staff for something that (for lack of a better way to put it) is less bang for your buck than other options. Sure you may catch that one person that is infectious and showing a fever, but at the same time you're letting through three people that have it, are contagious but look like their fine, but will infect other people and spread it to surfaces in your venue. The larger cause for concern amongst some of the epidemiologists is more about duration. 6 feet away for a minute isn't a huge problem if you're both wearing masks and one of you might be infectious, but 2 hours 6 feet apart (ESPECIALLY) if one of you is infectious, greatly increases the probability of transferal.


----------



## mbrown3039 (May 21, 2020)

josh88 said:


> Most infectious vs infectious is kind of a moot point, you're infectious either way. Yes you might hit a peak somewhere that is detectable, but the whole point of contact tracing is once you are showing symptoms, its too late and you were at least harboring the virus and leaving potential points of infection, even if you're not actively spreading it person to person, and the likelihood of you having already infected someone before you show a fever or symptoms is reasonable assumption. I was just listening to an NPR report today about another study that backs what Bill is saying and that airports are wanting TSA to do temperature screenings but that that the impact is minimal, and thats one of the reasons TSA is pushing back and trying to get the airports to implement it themselves if they want to. They don't want to waste the time or money when it isn't a real reliable measure.
> 
> I'm all about as many safeguards as possible, but a big expenditure for thermal cameras and or staff for something that (for lack of a better way to put it) is less bang for your buck than other options. Sure you may catch that one person that is infectious and showing a fever, but at the same time you're letting through three people that have it, are contagious but look like their fine, but will infect other people and spread it to surfaces in your venue. The larger cause for concern amongst some of the epidemiologists is more about duration. 6 feet away for a minute isn't a huge problem if you're both wearing masks and one of you might be infectious, but 2 hours 6 feet apart (ESPECIALLY) if one of you is infectious, greatly increases the probability of transferal.



Forgive me if I don't trust the TSa to make logical decisions. And, using that logic, we should remove air bags from cars because most car accidents don't involve airbag deployment and cars would be less expensive without them.

Just out of curiosity, what is your preferred method for screening large groups of people to see if they're sick and contagious? I haven't heard/seen anything remotely as efficient as thermal cameras followed up by a thermometer for those folks that show an elevated temperature...and, keep in mind that the solution will need to be in place for 1 - 2 years (as long as it takes to get a proven-effective vaccine mass-distributed). m


----------



## josh88 (May 21, 2020)

mbrown3039 said:


> Forgive me if I don't trust the TSa to make logical decisions. And, using that logic, we should remove air bags from cars because most car accidents don't involve airbag deployment and cars would be less expensive without them.
> 
> Just out of curiosity, what is your preferred method for screening large groups of people to see if they're sick and contagious? I haven't heard/seen anything remotely as efficient as thermal cameras followed up by a thermometer for those folks that show an elevated temperature...and, keep in mind that the solution will need to be in place for 1 - 2 years (as long as it takes to get a proven-effective vaccine mass-distributed). m


Personally? I don't think there is a good method. Reliable, accurate, fast screening tests. but I don't see that happening either. Congrats if you can convince some people to buy your services and thermal cameras. You've made my point and illustrate why we as a venue, don't plan on reopening to audiences any time soon. There isn't anything thats truly reliable yet and we're not about to install thermal cameras and the added infrastructure to view and monitor those. Yeah we're still checking temperatures as people come in, but we're also not expecting that to be anything that really mitigates anything. It's been mentioned more than once, the real issue is that at the current moment you CAN'T, see the sick and contagious. Finding the 10% that has a temperature is great, but there's still the chance you're letting someone who's asymptotic in and then it doesnt really matter about the people you did find. My wife and I have been checking our temperatures each day out of an abundance of caution as well, knowing that if we have a fever it means we've already been sick for awhile.

THAT is the crux of the problem. The tests and temperature indicators don't help because they stop potential for infection. That person has already come in contact with people and surfaces by the time they're discovered. It help stops the spread because once that happens you can isolate them and track who've they've come in contact with. Which is a bad scenario if that's happening at a mass gathering (even if it is outside or in the lobby).

None of us are experts in this. I wouldn't let the LD mix a show, so I'm looking to the science and the people who know what their doing and so far the science seems to be saying that the efficacy of thermal imaging isn't great. With the long incubation, the fact that not all people even show a fever and the fact that there's plenty of data indicating that its unreliable and even with the WHO saying its only useful as a single component in a big picture and can't be used for diagnosis. To change your metaphor, its more akin to whether or not you're wearing arm floaties in a pool while also wearing a life jacket. The floaties might help save you, but it isn't going to be useful 90% of the time.

There were upticks in sales for thermal cameras for SARS and MERS as well and both of those trailed off eventually and went back to largely being ignored for the exact same reason.


----------



## mbrown3039 (May 21, 2020)

So, by your logic, since rigging inspections can't prevent 100% of rigging accidents, you don't do them..? Or, in more detail, since the typical rigging inspection can't reveal micro-fractures or anomalies in the metal itself, they're not worth it...? Of course they are! You do the best you can with what you know at the time; when you know better, you do better.

I certainly hope you don't go back to work fearful or even anxious, but, at some point, (I assume) you're going to have to go back to work. And, unless it's as a penguin counter in Antarctica (the only continent that is CV19-free) you're going to want to stack the odds in your favor as much as possible (again, I assume). Thermal imaging is just one part of an overall strategy to do just that. m


----------



## TimMc (May 21, 2020)

mbrown3039 said:


> So, by your logic, since rigging inspections can't prevent 100% of rigging accidents, you don't do them..? Or, in more detail, since the typical rigging inspection can't reveal micro-fractures or anomalies in the metal itself, they're not worth it...? Of course they are! You do the best you can with what you know at the time; when you know better, you do better.
> 
> I certainly hope you don't go back to work fearful or even anxious, but, at some point, (I assume) you're going to have to go back to work. And, unless it's as a penguin counter in Antarctica (the only continent that is CV19-free) you're going to want to stack the odds in your favor as much as possible (again, I assume). Thermal imaging is just one part of an overall strategy to do just that. m


Body temperature checks are good for finding either 1) liars or, 2) those who don't know what a fever feels like. Otherwise it's like 'security theater' - the public-facing side of the TSA (their real work is done where we can't see).

I think the consideration being ignored here is exactly the PUBLIC facing side. There are plenty of folks who will not feel safe unless there are infection control measures they can see. So signage about video temp sensing (maybe a monitor like the stores do to show the CCTV surveillance is actually on), hand sanitizers and controlled access will help make those ticket buyers feel better about their choice of entertainment. Of course, there are those who don't give a damn, either, and we'll see them infecting others including their own families and co-workers (Wisconsin, Florida... I'm talking about you).


----------



## FMEng (May 22, 2020)

mbrown3039 said:


> That is correct, but the fever generally indicates when people are the most infectious (whether it's CV19, the "common" flu, measles, chicken pox, whatever). m


As I mentioned before, a University of Washington virologist states that people are most infectious with Covid-19 before they have symptoms. To me, that means before they present a fever. Here is a link to the article.
When coronavirus is most infectious


----------



## TimMc (May 22, 2020)

Big Mother Says: "Know your thermal status. We do." 

I think Steve Adelman, lawyer and Event Safety Alliance representative had it right - we're talking about moving back into the house while it's still on fire.


----------



## gafftaper (May 22, 2020)

mbrown3039 said:


> So, by your logic, since rigging inspections can't prevent 100% of rigging accidents, you don't do them..? Or, in more detail, since the typical rigging inspection can't reveal micro-fractures or anomalies in the metal itself, they're not worth it...? Of course they are! You do the best you can with what you know at the time; when you know better, you do better.
> 
> I certainly hope you don't go back to work fearful or even anxious, but, at some point, (I assume) you're going to have to go back to work. And, unless it's as a penguin counter in Antarctica (the only continent that is CV19-free) you're going to want to stack the odds in your favor as much as possible (again, I assume). Thermal imaging is just one part of an overall strategy to do just that. m


We know that at least half the cases of COVID don't have fevers. Multiple studies have shown that the number of undetected asymptomatic cases are significantly higher than we thought. Of the cases that do develop fevers, they can be infectious for as much as a week BEFORE they have the fever. So that means at some point ALL (currently) 1.6 million confirmed (probably a low number) Covid cases were infectious while they did not have a fever. Yes, taking temperatures is a tool for finding a certain percentage of infected people, but there are far more cases walking through the door without fevers. 

To go back to the rigging analogy, No rigger has ever said, "I inspected the arbors, I had no way to check the safety of anything else in the system. But the arbors are perfect. Go ahead and run the show." We work in an industry with "go no go" gauges. Things are safe enough for a show or the show doesn't happen. Unfortunately, I'm afraid this means it's going to be a long time until anything happens.

And on a side note... None of this matters. It's going to be a long time until half of the country feels safe enough to go outside. Yeah if we all open tomorrow there will be a few people who show up, but it's going to be a long time until an audience large enough to pay the bills goes outside.


----------



## TimMc (May 22, 2020)

gafftaper said:


> {snip of parts not relevant to my reply}
> 
> And on a side note... None of this matters. It's going to be a long time until half of the country feels safe enough to go outside. Yeah if we all open tomorrow there will be a few people who show up, but it's going to be a long time until an audience large enough to pay the bills goes outside.



That's part of it. While venues are trying to maximize the number of patrons while maintaining required distancing it's still an open question as to how many of that reduced inventory gets sold. As for paying the bills... touring musical theater is very expensive, even the budget producers have a big nut to crack. Many local & regional orchestras are already on thin financial ice; the good-ish news is only half their season ticket holders show up for the concerts so maybe they can play to 'sold out' houses for the first time in 40 years... but the mature audience that buys season tickets are getting older and many are in other risk groups for coronavirus. It doesn't bode well. Local theater may do better but all parties to the production will need to take a really hard look at budgets because revenue *will* be down and sponsorships uncertain.

The bar-goers in Wisconsin and the frat boys on the beaches aside, there really aren't the huge numbers of folks ready to "go back to 2019" in the next few days or weeks. The long term economic effects are only beginning to come on the horizon.

The folks that were spraying sanitizer on Amazon packages are not going to be in our auditoriums or ballrooms any time soon. It will take more than assurances of venue hygiene, symbolic health screenings and hand sanitizer stations every 20 feet before they come back.


----------



## josh88 (May 24, 2020)

It's perhaps worth noting the first look at the 30 page guidelines that Newsom/California and the film industry have been working on recommends NOT checking temperature.



> Temperature screening is not recommended, as “the benefits are unlikely to be worth the effort.” Ditto repeat testing: “Given the prolonged nature of many productions, workers with differing schedules of varying lengths, repeated universal testing would be highly complex to coordinate and is likely to be very low yield.










A First Glimpse at the 30-Page Hollywood Safety White Paper Being Drafted for Governors — Exclusive

An industry task force has created a document outlining how production could safely return and Indiewire has read an early draft.



www.indiewire.com


----------



## Doug Lowthian (May 26, 2020)

Following this discussion it seems like venues need to have a medical staff, testing laboratory, quarantine and medical care rooms onsite. 
Strange times indeed. 
I jest of course, but is it really coming to venues having to medically screen patrons?


----------



## MNicolai (May 26, 2020)

Note, in Universal Studios' reopening they added a CYA disclaimer: “Note that any public location where people are present provides an inherent risk of exposure to COVID-19 and we cannot guarantee that you will not be exposed during your visit."


----------



## BillConnerFASTC (May 26, 2020)

It seems that they are having some success with dogs being trained to sniff for people infected with the virus.  previous articles of work in France and UK. There goes the shop - now a dog kennel.


----------



## TimMc (May 26, 2020)

Doug Lowthian said:


> Following this discussion it seems like venues need to have a medical staff, testing laboratory, quarantine and medical care rooms onsite.
> Strange times indeed.
> I jest of course, but is it really coming to venues having to medically screen patrons?



This is where things start to break up a little. Who do you listen to? Which "medical expert" is going to give specific advice to a venue? My guess is "none of them". Venue managers will either DIY this or hire a consulting firm with lots of "hold harmless" clauses in the contract.

The State-owned casinos opened on Saturday morning. On Sunday afternoon I went to the closest one and was stopped by security to have a passive IR temp scan done (please lower your mask so I can get a full reading) and was asked if I had any of the symptoms on the sign next to the officer. The admitted me and 30 minutes later I was ready to leave. They ratcheted down the HVAC, so now the cigarette smoke was nasty, the slots I wanted to play weren't available (either turned off to maintain patron distances or simply busy with players), and all live table games (poker, craps, roulette, blackjack, baccarat) were closed. While casinos tend to attract a mature crowd the patrons that day seemed younger than typical. The casino urged patrons to wear masks (and had them available at no charge), only about 20% of the patrons did so. All casino staff were masked, included the GM. They buffet restaurant was closed and the stage and dance floor of the lounge were blocked off with pipe & drape. Housekeeping staff were quick with sanitizers for chairs and gaming machines as patrons moved on (I was waiting on a particular slot and almost tackled the housekeeper - I didn't see her name badge) who stepped in to clean before I could sit down.

As gambling is about as highly regulated as an 'entertainment' medium can be, I'm looking at what the regulated industries are doing for some operational clarity going forward.


----------



## MNicolai (May 26, 2020)

@BillConnerFASTC, This is the only thing I can think about anymore whenever I hear someone talk about dogs sniffing things out: 








UK airport sniffer dogs good at finding sausages, but not drugs

A team of sniffer dogs set up at a British airport at a cost of 1.25 million pounds ($1.7 million) have proved adept at discovering small amounts of cheese and sausages but not so good at finding smuggled drugs, a report said on Thursday.



www.reuters.com


----------



## What Rigger? (May 26, 2020)

MNicolai said:


> Note, in Universal Studios' reopening they added a CYA disclaimer: “Note that any public location where people are present provides an inherent risk of exposure to COVID-19 and we cannot guarantee that you will not be exposed during your visit."


Would expect this at all theme parks, and other places soon.


----------



## TimMc (May 26, 2020)

What Rigger? said:


> Would expect this at all theme parks, and other places soon.


My prediction is that it will be printed on the ticket stock, posted at entrances, and will be a "acknowledge and accept" tick box when ordering tickets on line.


----------



## almorton (May 27, 2020)

I can see this becoming the norm, rather like the "Motor Racing is dangerous" on the back of the ticket we've been used to here in the UK (maybe elsewhere, too) for decades, when buying a ticket to any motor racing event.


----------



## BillConnerFASTC (May 27, 2020)

Or like MLB, with warning on ticket about flying bats and balls - and the teams still pay for a lot of facial reconstruction surgery every year - many hundred.


----------



## What Rigger? (May 28, 2020)

almorton said:


> I can see this becoming the norm, rather like the "Motor Racing is dangerous" on the back of the ticket we've been used to here in the UK (maybe elsewhere, too) for decades, when buying a ticket to any motor racing event.


Common in the US as well.


----------



## mbrown3039 (May 28, 2020)

Many of the Strip casinos open next Thursday and several (including Wynn and Venetian/Palazzo) are using thermal cameras and all of them are encouraging mask use.

One high-dollar, boutique hotel is requiring all luggage to be misted before it's brought into the hotel (it goes from your car to a separate room and then delivered to your room) and you must download the hotel's app to use for everything (checking in, room key, TV remote, paying for dinner, etc.).

Meanwhile, the LVCVA is looking to be the first public venue with GBAC STAR accreditation. More here: https://tinyurl.com/yaogldeu


----------



## jtweigandt (May 29, 2020)

Unfortunately math is your enemy here. 2 people 6 feet apart, one hot, one not.. walking past each other in the grocery or outdoors.with a relatively large volume of air circulating is much different than 2 people sitting even 12 or 20 feet from each other
for 2 hours in the same location, with one hot, one not.. remember that lady in the 3rd row with the obnoxious perfume? She was a warning. 2 hours with that same "donor" is like walking past 120 people at the grocery.. all positive.. if you allow 1 minute for each encounter, which is generous ...reality is more like 15 seconds which takes us out to 2 hours with a positive at 6 feet is more like walking past 480 positives at the Grocery store. .. Which is why the grocery stores have been able to stay open, and people try to go to church and the priest dies, and the parish staff tests positive It's the time element of airborne exposure that is the real bugaboo.. surface contamination is likely a much less important and efficient means of transmission here. Really depressing thoughts, I know.. but that's the reality, and that's why the meatpacking plants were hotbeds of infection, and Wal Mart was not. Time x inverse of static air volume x risk of encountering a positive divided by distance. If all positives had a fever, we'd be almost golden here.. but they don't.. so temp screening can improve your numbers.. but probably not drastically.


----------



## BillConnerFASTC (May 29, 2020)

I agree. Read of 200 farm workers in TN, everyone tested positive. A third to two thirds of infected people have no symptoms. Minnesota began reopening and highest one day death count yesterday. More agreement its not surfaces but just what jt says - person to person. I hate to be so pessimistic but sure looks bleak.


----------



## Footer (May 29, 2020)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> I agree. Read of 200 farm workers in TN, everyone tested positive. A third to two thirds of infected people have no symptoms. Minnesota began reopening and highest one day death count yesterday. More agreement its not surfaces but just what jt says - person to person. I hate to be so pessimistic but sure looks bleak.



With ya. Every major growth lately has been due to mass gatherings of people... mostly in factory processing plants where a lot of people are together. 

Cuomo has more or less said that mass gatherings won't be happening anytime soon in NYS.

Its either going to be a LONG time till we go back to work or we need to wait for the frustration level to get high enough were everyone is OK with people dying. Its pretty clear D.C. is pushing for opening right up to the point where hospitals get overwhelmed... I'm not sure the rest of society is OK with that plan.


----------



## jtweigandt (May 30, 2020)

Decided to clean up my equations this morning

I am the Doctor. Monsters are real. So is Math.

T=time near a person
A=air turnover per hour
R=%Risk of that person being infected
D=Distance Separating
I=Chance of you getting infected
S=Separator effect (Mask, Plexiglass, other physical barriers)

I = T x 1/A x R x 1/D x 1/S


----------



## BillConnerFASTC (May 30, 2020)

or perhaps more simply


----------



## RonHebbard (May 30, 2020)

jtweigandt said:


> Decided to clean up my equations this morning
> 
> I am the Doctor. Monsters are real. So is Math.
> 
> ...


TARDIS you say; Love your acronym! 
Toodleoo! 
Ron Hebbard


----------



## jtweigandt (May 30, 2020)

RonHebbard said:


> TARDIS you say; Love your acronym!
> Toodleoo!
> Ron Hebbard


probably should be 1/d squared... kind of like light falling off with the square of the distance.. These things take time to refine


----------



## JohnD (Jun 3, 2020)

Well alrighty, here is another live event coming up in Michigan August 17-23, maybe.







Upper Peninsula State Fair, Escanaba Michigan

The Upper Peninsula State Fair is a fair held annually, in mid August in Escanaba Michigan the Upper Peninsula of Michigan. The UP State Fairgrounds hosts many large scale events each year and features carnival rides, delicious fair foods, free entertainment, agricultural exhibits.



www.upstatefair.net





EDIT: The Fair Authority and the Delta County Chamber of Commerce are working with local, state and federal health authorities to create a health and safety plan.


----------



## MarshallPope (Jun 3, 2020)

The document we prepared at our theatre has been made public, if anyone is interested.


https://therevtheatre.com/wp-content/uploads/Workplace-Guidelines-for-COVID-19-5.20.20-final.pdf


----------



## josh88 (Jun 3, 2020)

California's Film/production reopening white paper is out now. 


https://pmcdeadline2.files.wordpress.com/2020/06/iwlmsc-task-force-white-paper-6-1-20.pdf


----------



## dbaxter (Jun 3, 2020)

We are looking at following the Performing Arts Center Consortium guidelines. I moved a copy of their draft guidelines to my website so you can all see it.


----------



## BillConnerFASTC (Jun 4, 2020)

So many of these plans involve screening. It was recently being reported that between a 1/3 and 2/3 of people with Covid-19 have no symptoms. Today I read from a major research institution that 80% of people infected may show no symptoms ever. Nothing short of a test will show it in asymptomatic people - and there are only a few rapid - under an hour - tests so far - with price tags in the hundreds of dollars. (I'm sure there will be more faster and cheaper within the next months or year, but not yet.) How can it be safe for large assemblies before the testing is advanced? And all the emphasis on disinfecting surfaces seems pointless. Its a problem with guidelines (or codes and standards, laws, etc.) is that they are based on yesterday's knowledge.


----------



## TimMc (Jun 4, 2020)

It's like the TSA screening passengers, "security theatre"... a public showing meant to communicate "we're taking this seriously." The only actual value is stopping those who either don't know they are sick or are who are in denial about symptoms. 

Make no mistake, though, there is a significant amount of the public who are reluctant to go back to places of assembly because of misinformation, old information, or the perception that too little is being done to protect them. Meeting those concerns in some visible way will help assuage them... we hope.


----------



## BillConnerFASTC (Jun 4, 2020)

I just hope it doesn't kill them. You'd probably save more lives by not allowing anyone over 55 attend. And people with comorbidities.


----------



## TimMc (Jun 4, 2020)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> I just hope it doesn't kill them. You'd probably save more lives by not allowing anyone over 55 attend. And people with comorbidities.



There is "that", I suppose, but in the end likely a biology-driven process. A pandemic ends when the virus sufficiently mutates or an effective vaccine is found and distributed, or it runs out of hosts. It's not difficult to deduce that there are yet plenty of old and sicker folks who will die prematurely. Until 1 of the 3 conditions are met, anyway...

Those older and sicker people are the audiences for a lot of what we do - from symphony orchestras to musical theater - and losing a chunk of audience is the last thing they need. The worse news is that there's nothing to keep them from getting Covid-19 other than limiting exposure to others and using PPE. Old people staying home, or getting severely ill/dying, do no favors for orchestras or producers or local presenters...

Some industry segments will be able to resume some kind, level or type of live operations but for concerts, general admission nightclubs, and packed auditoriums? We're not there yet.

I'm concerned that in the next 6-9 months our industry will lose both new and old technicians and craftspersons. The Disney and LiveNation sized entities will likely survive but for everyone else, the next 6 months or so and going to be very challenging


----------



## JohnD (Jun 4, 2020)

There is an article over at PSW about the live concert May 18 in Fort Smith, Arkansas.







Normal... For Now: Inside The First Socially Distanced Concert In The U.S. - ProSoundWeb

Taking with two of the key individuals about how it all went down as well as their observations as to what they see coming for live concerts in the future.



www.prosoundweb.com


----------



## BillConnerFASTC (Jun 4, 2020)

TimMc said:


> There is "that", I suppose, but in the end likely a biology-driven process. A pandemic ends when the virus sufficiently mutates or an effective vaccine is found and distributed, or it runs out of hosts. It's not difficult to deduce that there are yet plenty of old and sicker folks who will die prematurely. Until 1 of the 3 conditions are met, anyway...
> 
> Those older and sicker people are the audiences for a lot of what we do - from symphony orchestras to musical theater - and losing a chunk of audience is the last thing they need. The worse news is that there's nothing to keep them from getting Covid-19 other than limiting exposure to others and using PPE. Old people staying home, or getting severely ill/dying, do no favors for orchestras or producers or local presenters...
> 
> ...


Agree.
The question is, is it ok to sacrifice the very few of the younger who die from covid19 for the benefit if the rest. 
And the industry is in for a whole lot more hurt. A year or more is my guess.


----------



## Catherder (Jun 4, 2020)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> I just hope it doesn't kill them. You'd probably save more lives by not allowing anyone over 55 attend. And people with comorbidities.



Totally get where you’re coming from, but doesn’t this also seem like a lawsuit waiting to happen?


----------



## josh88 (Jun 4, 2020)

Catherder said:


> Totally get where you’re coming from, but doesn’t this also seem like a lawsuit waiting to happen?


I think this is why places like disney already are doing this and we'll see it all over the place.. there will be signs saying look if you are in this group and still choose to come in and end up dead its not our fault and you can't sue us, we warned you and you were at risk. I'm sure we'll absolutely see something like this happen and there probably will be some lawsuits and the US is a litigious culture anyway. People/venues are going to do what they can to cover their asses but some of validity of this will be determined in the courts for sure. I know of at least one theatre already who hasn't had audiences but never shut down because they got the determination that they could operate as an "essential business" under the communications umbrella.


----------



## Catherder (Jun 4, 2020)

@josh88 i was more commenting on the “no patrons over 55 and/or no preexisting conditions” policy proposed by @BillConnerFASTC. *tongue in cheek Bill*. I’ve been to enough baseball games I’m very familiar with the you won’t sue us disclaimer.


----------



## josh88 (Jun 4, 2020)

Catherder said:


> @josh88 i was more commenting on the “no patrons over 55 and/or no preexisting conditions” policy proposed by @BillConnerFASTC. *tongue in cheek Bill*. I’ve been to enough baseball games I’m very familiar with the you won’t sue us disclaimer.


Oh no, I get it. I'm fully expecting some places will go that route, and someone will sue for ageism, that somewhere else someone will die and try to blame it on exposure at a theatre. We're in such uncharted water and we're all trying to find some scenario that works to figure out the new normal, that I really expect all of it.


----------



## BillConnerFASTC (Jun 5, 2020)

And the current "reopening" and people relaxing has already resulted in an increase in deaths. Perhaps more cases and deaths are a justified price for getting back to work as long as health system is not overwhelmed.


----------



## TimMc (Jun 5, 2020)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> And the current "reopening" and people relaxing has already resulted in an increase in deaths. Perhaps more cases and deaths are a justified price for getting back to work as long as health system is not overwhelmed.


Justified price probably depends on which end of the ventilator one is one, but absent a vaccine or mutation to a less lethal form of coronavirus, those most vulnerable will continue to die from this disease. No matter what.


----------



## BillConnerFASTC (Jun 5, 2020)

TimMc said:


> Justified price probably depends on which end of the ventilator one is one, but absent a vaccine or mutation to a less lethal form of coronavirus, those most vulnerable will continue to die from this disease. No matter what.


I do believe the death count will be significantly higher if we continue or accelerate the pace at which we doing away with social distancing measures. It is not yet the time to assemble in large groups and abandon masks.


----------



## TimMc (Jun 5, 2020)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> I do believe the death count will be significantly higher if we continue or accelerate the pace at which we doing away with social distancing measures. It is not yet the time to assemble in large groups and abandon masks.


I absolutely agree the biology does not support the popular decisions made by politicians.


----------



## BillConnerFASTC (Jun 5, 2020)

But if you are opening and worry about surfaces (I don't) there this https://www.etcconnect.com/GUV-Conveyor/GUV-Conveyor.aspx from one of our favorites. They still have the masks also.


----------



## TimMc (Jun 5, 2020)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> But if you are opening and worry about surfaces (I don't) there this https://www.etcconnect.com/GUV-Conveyor/GUV-Conveyor.aspx from one of our favorites. They still have the masks also.


I'm with you on the surfaces thing... our PAC is "kind of" open to tenants but the City is spending time and money "cleaning" (with some kind of misting/UV/ionizing radiation?) a building that was mostly unoccupied for 75 days. Any virus is long inactive. Perhaps they have mold or bacterial issues previously undisclosed? Beats me, but I put these kinds of efforts in the "sanitation theater" category along with temperature screenings and security/ushers/ticket scanners asking health questions... it's window dressing to signal to the public that infection control has been considered.... but we're opening anyway.


----------



## JohnD (Jun 11, 2020)

The boy from Oklahoma* just made an announcement:
GARTH at the Drive-ins

*Just for old times sake "Boys from Oklahoma" was on Garth's playlist back in the days when he played Willie's Saloon for a hundred bucks a night. Other songs of those times included "Wildwood Weed" and "New Tony Lamas".


----------



## TimMc (Jun 11, 2020)

JohnD said:


> The boy from Oklahoma* just made an announcement:
> GARTH at the Drive-ins
> 
> *Just for old times sake "Boys from Oklahoma" was on Garth's playlist back in the days when he played Willie's Saloon for a hundred bucks a night. Other songs of those times included "Wildwood Weed" and "New Tony Lamas".


Cross Canadian Ragweed? I ain't no holy roller...


----------



## JohnD (Jun 11, 2020)

TimMc said:


> Cross Canadian Ragweed? I ain't no holy roller...


Funny you should mention that other, much lesser CCR. I was one of many who got a kick out of Cody Canada. In the world of bar bands, if lucky you end up playing at most of the local bars that featured live music. He was so intent in his Rock Star bad boy persona that wherever he played, he would talk trash about what a dump and lousy crowd at the last place they played. What he maybe didn't think about was that a large part of the audience were also at the last place they played (maybe even the bar a half block away LOL). The funniest thing was when he got some backing and was ready to move up into the not so small time level. Now there is nothing wrong with getting full sleeve tats, but someone really should have suggested he get them early enough so they could heal before shooting the full concert video. OK, enough blether from me today.


----------



## StradivariusBone (Jul 7, 2020)

So we are reopening to a rental client this weekend. What's the best practice right now for blocking off a row of seats? Easiest seems to be tape, but I worry about egress concerns with anything more robust. I also fully expect people to disregard it all and do whatever they want.


----------



## MNicolai (Jul 7, 2020)

@StradivariusBone There was a lot of discussion about that on Reddit. Some venues removed seats entirely to allow people to socially distance while getting to their seats. Was some discussion of removing seat pans so people don't try to circumvent the distancing but I think the prevailing wisdom was to take tieline or ribbon and loop it over the seat and under the seat pan and tie it off to discourage people from using the tied off seats while still allowing flexibility for the venue to adjust to large groups or more pairs of people or individuals.


----------



## StradivariusBone (Jul 7, 2020)

That sounds like a good solution. Thanks! I can't believe we're opening, but here we are.


----------



## TimMc (Jul 7, 2020)

StradivariusBone said:


> So we are reopening to a rental client this weekend. What's the best practice right now for blocking off a row of seats? Easiest seems to be tape, but I worry about egress concerns with anything more robust. I also fully expect people to disregard it all and do whatever they want.


That decision needs to be made by management/ownership. If that falls to your job title, I'd want the executive director to sign off on whatever is decided.


----------



## StradivariusBone (Jul 7, 2020)

Welcome to Florida. They don't care about their school employees down here. 

I ended up finding some pallet wrap plastic and used that to put on the rows. Worked pretty well and the Covidiots that pitch a fit about being told where to sit can easily remove it if they want.


----------



## TimMc (Jul 7, 2020)

StradivariusBone said:


> Welcome to Florida. They don't care about their school employees down here.
> 
> I ended up finding some pallet wrap plastic and used that to put on the rows. Worked pretty well and the *Covidiots that pitch a fit about being told where to sit can easily remove it if they want*.



They should be removed from the facility, as ultimately it's up to the property owner AND lessee to insure the facility is safe for occupancy, not that anyone in FL that values his/her/their job would do so. As for Florida, at least it provides entertainment with "Florida man....."

Every one of these ill-advised re-openings of public assemblies and subsequent rise in infections further delays the recovery - a kind of "pay me now, or pay me more later" things.


----------



## StradivariusBone (Jul 7, 2020)

TimMc said:


> ultimately it's up to the property owner AND lessee to insure the facility is safe for occupancy.



That's essentially what the new process is. I have to get a signed statement from the client stating that it is their obligation to follow CDC guidelines, etc. But it's toothless and pointless. I certainly don't get paid enough to enforce it, but I will do what I can to mitigate what I can.


----------



## FMEng (Jul 7, 2020)

That seems like a liability risk that any good lawyer could get past. Everyone involved will get dragged into it.


----------



## TimMc (Jul 7, 2020)

FMEng said:


> That seems like a liability risk that any good lawyer could get past. Everyone involved will get dragged into it.


Of course, the USA has a "name everybody as a defendant and let the judge decide" approach to civil law.

As Steve Adelman (lawyer and part of the Event Safety Alliance) points out, most suits will go nowhere because in tort law, the plaintiff must demonstrate proximate causality - that they sustained a loss because of, and exclusively from, the defendant's actions or negligence. PACs and arenas and theaters will be paying for defense against Covid suits until they are dismissed from the suit or the suit dismissed altogether. I expect suits to go nowhere because most PACs and theaters do not have deep pockets from which to pay claims; arenas, if not owned by a sports team (university, municipal) will be the same. Insurers are specifically excluding pandemics from new and renewal coverage... this applies to venues, tours, promoters, artists & producers, etc. When there's no purse from which to extract cash, lawyers and frivolous plaintiffs tend to crawl back into the woodwork.


----------



## StradivariusBone (Jul 7, 2020)

Yeah the Adelman video on it is pretty informative. And somewhat depressing. The fact is no one can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt where they got infected from. I'm trying to act as a "reasonable person" and following the ESA guidelines to the best of my ability.


----------



## MNicolai (Jul 7, 2020)

TimMc said:


> Every one of these ill-advised re-openings of public assemblies and subsequent rise in infections further delays the recovery - a kind of "pay me now, or pay me more later" things.



Just wait until a month from now. The FL DOE Commissioner just signed an order requiring all brick and mortar schools across Florida to reopen and allow in-person classes 5 days a week. That doesn't prohibit schools from offering distance learning but it does require that teachers be present in schools and based on Florida's attitude toward the virus so far I think you can imagine a lot of students will be back in person as well.

Expect this to get far, _far _worse before it gets better.


----------



## StradivariusBone (Jul 7, 2020)

There's not an appropriate "Like" button for Mike's comment, but from a fellow Floridian I wholeheartedly agree with his sentiment in spite of not at all liking the reality of it. I expect many teachers will take early retirement or find alternate work. This is on top of an already prevalent shortage of teachers, but at the risk of sounding political, I already think the state leadership would love to dismantle public education altogether and privatize or fund charter schools instead. I think the recent move was simply to accelerate failure and force the voucher discussion back into the spotlight. "Well if the district can't safely teach the kids, we need an alternative!" That old chestnut.


----------



## MNicolai (Jul 7, 2020)

StradivariusBone said:


> "Well if the district can't safely teach the kids, we need an alternative!" That old chestnut.


There's an easy retort if you hear someone bring that up -- Harvard is holding their next semester of classes online. If Harvard does not have the resources or ability to make their campus safe for staff, students, and parents, how can any other school in America be expected to?


----------



## TimMc (Jul 7, 2020)

MNicolai said:


> Just wait until a month from now. The FL DOE Commissioner just signed an order requiring all brick and mortar schools across Florida to reopen and allow in-person classes 5 days a week. That doesn't prohibit schools from offering distance learning but it does require that teachers be present in schools and based on Florida's attitude toward the virus so far I think you can imagine a lot of students will be back in person as well.
> 
> Expect this to get far, _far _worse before it gets better.



I'm on an AES Convention panel that is tasked with looking at the impact of Our Viral Pandemic® on live, professional audio. We had a Zoom meeting today and it's very clear to the production professionals that the next wave will further delay a reduction in infection rates and our subsequent return to events that look more like we're used to. We're pulling together resources and people from the USA, UK, AU (so far) and still looking for audio professionals in Europe or elsewhere that have experienced re-opening and can share what they are doing *as audio professionals* in dealing with a myriad of issues presented by a viral pandemic.

The consensus of our participants is that things do not look promising for a rapid return to the 'normal of 2019'.

For a look at both optimism and frustration, the second Entertainment Town Hall meeting from May 18, right before Labor Day weekend and compare to reality as we knew it on July 1.



The first meeting from April is here:



While those are focused primarily on music concerts, touring and festivals, ultimately theater and sports experience the same limitations - they're made for big audiences and we aren't going to have those next month. Or the month after. Or the month after that. And every time we have another record-setting increase in infections and hospital admissions, we will re-start the 90 day clock.

And I agree that having experienced, dedicated educators leave the system makes voters ripe for exploitation... "who'll save the children?"


----------



## MNicolai (Jul 7, 2020)

TimMc said:


> We're pulling together resources and people from the USA, UK, AU (so far) and still looking for audio professionals in Europe or elsewhere that have experienced re-opening and can share what they are doing *as audio professionals* in dealing with a myriad of issues presented by a viral pandemic.
> 
> The consensus of our participants is that things do not look promising for a rapid return to the 'normal of 2019'.



I'm actually headed up to Emory University tomorrow to look at a research facility I consulted on for acoustics for their Mild Cognitive Impairment Empowerment Program -- from the call I had with them today, they're really digging in that social distancing is here to stay for the foreseeable future and want to take acoustical and sound considerations into their reopening plan. I'll be walking through the building with the architects and a few of their PhD students taking different acoustical measurements and we'll be looking at how they can adapt the listening and communications experience for their staff and the participants of their research study.

At first stab, we're discussing reducing noise masking levels in certain spaces, adding corrective EQ curves on sound systems and conference systems to counteract the dampening effect of people speaking while wearing masks, and possibly adding voice lift systems or swapping out absorptive ceiling tiles for reflective ones to improve speech intelligibility for group discussions in larger spaces. Speech intelligibility is taking a high priority now that everyone has to remain 6' away from each other while communicating through masks. In particular, this building is occupied by many people who have different degrees of cognitive impairment and may be elderly -- their hearing is not great as-is and masks are not making conversations any easier to conduct.

I've seen some of the live sound guys using a couple of these tricks already. Between masks and disposable socks getting put on mic's and swapped out between speakers, they're doing what they can to EQ it back to normal sounding voices.

Unfortunately in order to the do the testing I have to fly to Atlanta so I've prepared myself as best as possible for the pandemic airport experience.


----------



## TimMc (Jul 8, 2020)

MNicolai said:


> I'm actually headed up to Emory University tomorrow to look at a research facility I consulted on for acoustics for their Mild Cognitive Impairment Empowerment Program -- from the call I had with them today, they're really digging in that social distancing is here to stay for the foreseeable future and want to take acoustical and sound considerations into their reopening plan. I'll be walking through the building with the architects and a few of their PhD students taking different acoustical measurements and we'll be looking at how they can adapt the listening and communications experience for their staff and the participants of their research study.


Cool. In situ measurement beats educated guesses.


> At first stab, we're discussing reducing noise masking levels in certain spaces, adding corrective EQ curves on sound systems and conference systems to counteract the dampening effect of people speaking while wearing masks, and possibly adding voice lift systems or swapping out absorptive ceiling tiles for reflective ones to improve speech intelligibility for group discussions in larger spaces. Speech intelligibility is taking a high priority now that everyone has to remain 6' away from each other while communicating through masks. In particular, this building is occupied by many people who have different degrees of cognitive impairment and may be elderly -- their hearing is not great as-is and masks are not making conversations any easier to conduct.


The difficulty in "corrective" anything is having something to which correction may be applied. A face mask is a shelving filter that is so effective, there's little left above f3. The Alcons is already shot to hell and we're not even at the microphone yet. The amount of HF boost and what that EQ would need to "look like", spectrally, would seem to be as varied as masks and speakers themselves. I'd be interested in what you find. Perhaps it would be helpful for the grad students to demonstrate the current system while wearing their masks and if an operator is available, a couple quick games of Spin the Knobs will give a very rough idea of what EQ, by itself, may accomplish. I think that processing of inputs used for masked speaker microphones be processed *as a group* separate from inputs from video playback or music sources, with any universal corrective EQ applied to that group. Should the mask order be lifted the original input routing can be restored or the Group EQ bypassed. The eventual changes to best practices/orders would lead me to look less at architectural changes of any significant expense, but "opening up" a relatively dead room may have psychoacoustic benefits. My priority would be to minimize early reflections (as you've probably done in your initial design) and see what space above might be used for diffusion. Lowering the noise floor via changes to acoustic masking are also helpful. Squeeze out every dB of noise floor you can.


> I've seen some of the live sound guys using a couple of these tricks already. Between masks and disposable socks getting put on mic's and swapped out between speakers, they're doing what they can to EQ it back to normal sounding voices.
> 
> Unfortunately in order to the do the testing I have to fly to Atlanta so I've prepared myself as best as possible for the pandemic airport experience.


The disposable socks are exactly why I advocate for separate processing... I've listened to some congressional proceedings over headphones and I really, really am over the amount of 8k - 12k that seems to have been added to most of the mic inputs. There's a whole lotta air up there... and not just from the politicians. Maybe it sounds "right" where the poor tech gets to monitor the live sound from, but on TV and video, it's a big, sibilant mess. Given a choice, though, I'd rather have mic socks than face masks but I don't think local officials will permit that.

Good luck and let us know how it sorts out, Mike.


----------



## JohnD (Jul 8, 2020)

I didn't know the best place to post this, but there are some interesting articles at LOOPNET concerning commercial spaces and health.


----------



## FMEng (Jul 9, 2020)

In a perfect world, you'd be able to test and apply EQ for a specific type of mask. I've noticed that there is quite a bit of variation in the HF frequency attenuation of different materials. Perhaps the client could standardize on paper disposables.


----------



## MNicolai (Jul 10, 2020)

TimMc said:


> Good luck and let us know how it sorts out, Mike.



Turns out they've got some larger issues to sort through before we try to eek out a few marginal improvements by things like mask EQ's.

As part of the renovation they tore out a VAV terminal unit from a main supply duct and didn't cap it. Consequently, there's an 8" hole in their main supply duct next to their video conference room that is blowing high velocity air through a relatively small hole, causing a background noise level of NC57. Because of the LF content of airflow noise, the background noise is actually 67 dBC in that area that is constant whenever the the AHU is running -- which is almost always during the daytime. As a fairly small building, the noise from that alone is impacting about one-third to one-half of their overall occupied spaces.

They have a couple kitchen exhaust hoods that are connected to their main yoga/fitness/common area that don't have controls on the exhaust fans so the fans run 24/7 and spill noise around the area even though the kitchen is not actively in use.

A zone of the masking system wasn't plugged in, and there were masking emitters installed in areas like conference, meeting, and art therapy spaces where we recommended against having masking installed in.

Fortunately overall it will be easy to remedy most of these items, but they will have to be addressed before it's worthwhile to get into the more tweaky kinds of remedies.

It was one of the first times I've been out in public trying to communicate with people while wearing a mask as I've mostly been working from home the last 4 months. In the airport terminal I had to try hard to avoid leaning into the counter to understand what the food vendors were saying through their masks. On the plane with the engine noise going it was basically worthless trying to listen to or speak with flight attendants. As a consequence of being dehydrated, I did also discover that there's a 5-second window if you have a coughing fit on a flight where you tell yourself it's OK -- you're not actually sick -- right up until you realize you're the 2nd person bitten in any zombie movie ever where you sense everyone around you whispering about who's responsibility it is to kill you before you turn.

Also noted lots of people are wearing masks improperly. Spotted 2 cops at the TPA terminal that were wearing gaiters pulled over their mouths but down below their noses. Tonight I sat outside my local gas station for 15 minutes, where we are under a mask order -- in that time span, 2 employees wearing masks properly, 1 wearing it pulled under their chin, 1 took his off when customers left -- 5 customers wearing, 20 customers not. Overall people are not taking precautions.


FMEng said:


> In a perfect world, you'd be able to test and apply EQ for a specific type of mask. I've noticed that there is quite a bit of variation in the HF frequency attenuation of different materials. Perhaps the client could standardize on paper disposables.



Probably would be easiest to hand out masks so there's consistency between them. If it comes to implementing though and if we had to accommodate multiple mask types, I will probably play a test signal through my NTi Talkbox and try 3-4 different masks on it, Smaart a transfer function for each and without, and then split the difference between them as a starting basis.


----------



## jtweigandt (Nov 9, 2020)

In case you missed it, the Pfizer vaccine in stage 3 trials is showing about 90% protection with a test group of 40K people 
having had 2 doses. Tested most likely in people like health care workers being steeped in this stuff Lower level exposure could be even better protection. This could be an out of the park moment.

Will still be next year before significant numbers are vaccinated, but 
90% is so much better than the anticipated 60% in terms of statistics and disease control. It takes a lot fewer 90 per centers to be our "control rods" 
in this nuclear meltdown than it would take 70 percenters. Fortunately exponents work in the inverse.. and the more places you break the chain, the better off
we all are. I have told people in our Theatre group that there will be no 2021 season.. Math is cruel.. But this is the first glimmer that we may come back in 2022. 
Herd immunity... be the herd.... roll up your sleeve when you get the chance.. in the mean time herd ... take a deep breath, meditate remember Moo is just Oom backwards.
Did I mention that the CEO of Pfizer is one of mine.. a Doctor of Veterinary Medicine.


----------



## TimMc (Nov 9, 2020)

DVM?  "We're merely mammals, lets misbehave" - Cole Porter

Pfizer estimates they can have 50 million doses by the end of the year and it's a 2 dose vaccine, so 25 million people. My guess is half those will go to health care providers, first responders, nursing home staff and residents. The rest of us will stick with our masks and distancing until it's our turn. I'm not complaining, believe me. With several other firms working on their own vaccines there's a really good chance of having choices and more production capacity. Long-ish term, that bodes well.

What happens in the next 60 days determines how many production companies go out of biz.


----------



## MNicolai (Nov 10, 2020)

There's going to be worldwide demand for any vaccines, so being able to inject 25M people of which maybe 22M will build up an immunity is a very small number of people. Worth pointing out that this is also just a press release at the moment and no peer reviewed studies or published data is available to independently verify any of the claims.

Echoing @TimMc, there may be a light at the end of the tunnel but it could still be 9-12 months away, and at the moment the virus outbreak is exploding in areas like the Midwest so expect things to get much worse before they get better. Also expect no coherent federal guidance or resources until February.


----------



## PeaceTech (Nov 11, 2020)

OwO


----------



## TheaterEd (Nov 11, 2020)

MNicolai said:


> it could still be 9-12 months away


----------



## FMEng (Nov 11, 2020)

Covid is rising to a very dangerous level in most places across the nation right now. If an activity around people from outside your household is optional, it would be a good idea not to do it. If we all ramp up up our caution level to the maximum, maybe we can avoid further restrictions and negative, economic impacts. If we don't, the consequences will be like nothing we've seen yet. Wear a mask, social distance, and stay home.


----------



## MNicolai (Nov 11, 2020)

FMEng said:


> Covid is rising to a very dangerous level in most places across the nation right now. If an activity around people from outside your household is optional, it would be a good idea not to do it. If we all ramp up up our caution level to the maximum, maybe we can avoid further restrictions and negative, economic impacts. If we don't, the consequences will be like nothing we've seen yet. Wear a mask, social distance, and stay home.



Just shy of 140,000 new cases yesterday alone.

My hometown in WI has stopped community testing now. The largest hospital provider in SE Wisconsin has said they are shifting resources away from drive-up testing because they need that staffing focused on providing bedside care. So if the numbers in WI start to go down, it's entirely possible the problem is still getting worse but we won't be able to tell how much worse.


----------



## TimMc (Nov 12, 2020)

So while the house is still on fire, Ticketmaster has plan to move us back in to the house...








How Ticketmaster Plans to Check Your Vaccine Status for Concerts: Exclusive

Ticketmaster has been working on a framework for post-pandemic fan safety that uses smart phones to verify fans' vaccination status or COVID-19 test results.



www.billboard.com


----------



## josh88 (Nov 12, 2020)

We just canceled a filming gig we had for saturday, the $1400 we decided wasn't worth the risk. Our governor got on primetime last night begging for people to be better which (just like last time) means a new shutdown is coming in the next 1-6 days, and our local health department basically confirmed that by saying, postpone it for 2 weeks and you won't have to deal with it for awhile. 

The real news though is the first time around we had 1000 cases and 200 people in the ICU statewide, this time we're at 2700 and will hit 3000 next week and have 600+ people in the ICU, no big deal.....


----------



## dbaxter (Nov 21, 2020)

I don't know about reopening, but we won't be closing down soon. Just wanted to give people hearts that our audiences do care about theater. We just did our annual fall soiree fund raiser. It's where we present some options for next year's big musical and attendees, or in this case, viewers, get to buy voting chips to vote to decide which one. (_Jerry's Girls_ won, BTW). Imagine, we're a 126 seat theatre in a mid-sized city, but we raised $27,000! So there's hope, boys and girls.


----------

