# Scrim, Cyc or Both ?



## jack63ss (Mar 8, 2010)

I am in the enviable position of being given the funding to buy a sharkstooth scrim or muslin cyc, or possible both. My problem is lack of knowledge or experience with either. The basic effect I am looking for is to be able to change the color of the background to whatever I need it to be. So I have some questions I need help with:

Question 1 - For the effect I am looking for which would be better, scrim or cyc ? 
Question 2 - For either, do I buy white, natural or sky blue ? 
Question 3 - What is the best type of fixture to use to change the color of the entire surface (15x40) ? 

I have a general understanding of what the properties of both curtains are, but I don't want to spend the money and then find I'm not using them. Most of what we do is pretty simple lighting-wise, but I am trying to get a little more sophisticated so I can make our people look even better.

Thanks
Jack


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## Morpheus (Mar 8, 2010)

jack63ss said:


> I am in the enviable position of being given the funding to buy a sharkstooth scrim or muslin cyc, or possible both. My problem is lack of knowledge or experience with either. The basic effect I am looking for is to be able to change the color of the background to whatever I need it to be. So I have some questions I need help with:
> 
> Question 1 - For the effect I am looking for which would be better, scrim or cyc ?
> Question 2 - For either, do I buy white, natural or sky blue ?
> ...


Only you can answer if you're going to use them...

what would you _like_ to do, maybe that would help point you in the right direction?


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## SHARYNF (Mar 8, 2010)

In general if you had to choose one and your need was as you mentioned for a background, go with the cyc. go with white and look at a cyc lighting system that will allow you to mix colors evenly. 

here is an old cb thread that you might find useful

http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/lighting/9831-cyc-light-recommendations.html

Sharyn


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## rochem (Mar 8, 2010)

A cyc, in its most basic form, is essentially nothing more than a large piece of white or light-colored fabric hung far upstage which you can throw color and texture on to give more depth to the stage. They are frequently used to replicate the appearance of a sky, but they are used just as often for nonrealistic colors intended to enhance the mood of what's happening on stage. It really does help to add depth to a scene, in that you're staring at a large sheet of color rather than just a black curtain or similar. 

A black scrim is commonly used as an effect to make people and scenery appear and disappear. When lighting only the area downstage of a black scrim, the scrim will appear to be a solid black curtain and will be mostly opaque. By shifting the light to the upstage side of the scrim, the scrim will become translucent and the audience will be able to see through it. While it's not perfect, it is a very common and useful effect. Black scrims are also very popular when placed immediately downstage of a cyc. The scrim helps to reduce reflections from the floor onto the cyc, helps to reduce the intensity and add depth of the light, and allows the cyc to fade into a black backing when not lit, instead of having a giant unlit white sheet upstage. 

A white scrim has a similar use to a black scrim, except it is not as effective as a black scrim when becoming completely transparent. It is great when you want to have a soft, dreamy, diffused look on stage that can be seen through to reveal action behind the scrim. I've personally not seen many full-stage white scrim effects, but I have used white scrim as a scenic element and/or a projection surface and I really like the results. 

For your application, I would definitely recommend a cyc as your first purchase. If you can afford a seamless cyc, you will be able to light it from the rear, otherwise you'll have to light it from the front. There are a number of fixtures which will work when lighting a scrim. If you have any old R40 borderlights lying around like most older theatres do, these can work fairly well on a cyc, especially with only 15' of height. If you have the instrumentation, adding a ground row of strips will allow you to light from the top AND the bottom, creating a more even wash and allowing you to make much more dynamic looks on the cyc. If space is not an issue, I've always been a fan of the Altman 3-Cell Sky Cyc. It works great if you can afford the space to hang it ~8 feet downstage of your cyc. Three or four of them should be able to evenly light your cyc from top to bottom. Just slip a different gel color into each cell, and you can mix colors to your hearts delight.


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## wolf825 (Mar 9, 2010)

jack63ss said:


> I am in the enviable position of being given the funding to buy a sharkstooth scrim or muslin cyc, or possible both. My problem is lack of knowledge or experience with either. The basic effect I am looking for is to be able to change the color of the background to whatever I need it to be. So I have some questions I need help with:
> 
> Question 1 - For the effect I am looking for which would be better, scrim or cyc ?
> Question 2 - For either, do I buy white, natural or sky blue ?
> ...



Hi Jack, 
Based on your questions and the fact that you appear to have neither--a Cyc (white--not sky blue or a.k.a. 'sky cyc') would be your best most used and biggest benefit first purchase...seamless preferred for the best appearance..IMO. 

You can do a lot more with a cyc backdrop for color washes / mixing and for gobo projection and will most certainly add to your shows. Also, you do not have to go with just muslin--there is also a *"Leno filled"* scrim option which does most wonderfully as a Cyc backdrop. It gives a very 'soft' appearance to the light when you use it. Leno Filled is similar to a sharkstooth except the normal holes you would find in a scrim are 'filled' and soft and the fabric is not thin like a normal scrim is. Its stretchy like a scrim but softer in appearance then muslin. It doesn't work well as a 'scrim' if you tried to do scrim effects with it--because you cannot see thru it like you can on a regular scrim...but it works great for a cyc option and it is very reflective for colors. It can be a bit 'fuzzy' and soft in appearance when you project logo or text/detailed gobo's on it, but its not that noticeable to be bothered by usually...however that soft and fuzzy appearance IS very noticeable if you try to use it for video projection! If you ever plan on using your cyc for a projection--leno filled is not the way to go as it will cost you resolution and sharpness. So just take that note. Here is a description of it... Leno Filled Scrim from Rose Brand

A Black Scrim would be a good purchase as well if you can afford both...its very commonly used most of all for scrims..placed just downstage of your cyc lights, it can also add to your performances as you can make your cyc vanish to black without needing a black out drop and can make for some awesome gobo effects too when used with the cyc. 

A couple of things to consider with your cyc or scrims when purchasing--get a storage bag--they don't add that much more cost to the purchase and are WORTH IT for storage times when its critical to keep that nice white as clean as possible. 

Also with scrims especially--most have a pipe pocket at the bottom as you need this to weight and stretch and add tension....for a leno filled or sharkstooth scrim especially--seek out and ask for a double reinforced pipe pocket at the bottom--most 'tears' in a cyc or scrim from wear and stretch will happen at the pipe pocket and often it happens when someone pushes the bottompipe out the seam and thru the scrim or the pipes are bent or stepped on. 

Another thing to consider not mentioned so far--consider how you plan on hanging this and also--stretching it. While a pipe bottom is often adequate with a standard grommet/ties at the top--sometimes (especially with scrims which can 'hourglass' in shape on the sides when a pipe is in the bottom), it can be more versatile for you to have grommets and ties on the top AND on the sides for an extra option. This allows you to tie off your cyc or scrim to the side and help provide a stretch to the middle & edges if needed--you can get more even stretch on the ends and some folks will build or 'frame' a cyc if needed with ladder truss dropped from the batton. Another thing---if you have any $$ left you may want to consider some narrow 2-4' wide 'legs' to go on the side of your cyc or scrim to frame it visually if needed. It can make for a 'neater' appearance and blend to your other softgoods, especially if the hourglass shape should occur. Just a thought for you to consider in how you will hang it and frame it..just in case you may not have planned that far yet... 


As for the lights--your best is always a sky cyc if you have the room IMO, otherwise (and yes you can light a leno filled from behind) strip lights work great too--R40, zip or LED, as has been noted already. A standard RGB 3 color selection can give you hundreds of various colors & hues to play with on a cyc. 

Hope this extra info can help you with your decision...and shop around--prices can vary greatly (and you can get samples of the materials from a number of vendors) and make sure whatever you get that its FR or IFR (Flame Retardant or Inherent Flame Retardant). 


Good luck! 

-w


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## shiben (Mar 9, 2010)

jack63ss said:


> I am in the enviable position of being given the funding to buy a sharkstooth scrim or muslin cyc, or possible both. My problem is lack of knowledge or experience with either. The basic effect I am looking for is to be able to change the color of the background to whatever I need it to be. So I have some questions I need help with:
> 
> Question 1 - For the effect I am looking for which would be better, scrim or cyc ?
> Question 2 - For either, do I buy white, natural or sky blue ?
> ...



If you can, I would get both a cyc and a black scrim. 

If you have MR-16 Striplights, those would probably work pretty well for you in this case. We have 10 of them (6' each), and used 8 of them to light a cyc that was about the same size (actually more like 50', but still 15' tall). This worked very well and we got very nice color mixing. We used them from a groundrow position, if your short on an electric, this can work fairly well.


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## jack63ss (Mar 13, 2010)

Thanks for everyones help. I think we are going to go with a white cyc, although I need to investigate muslin vs leno filled. We decided to wait on the scrim though, at least until I have a better understanding of how to use it (I keep worrying we'll buy it and never use it). 
As for lighting, I actually have 10 8' R40 borderlights that I scooped up when the school updated its lighting fixtures, and I'm pretty sure they will do the job.
Thanks again. Oh, and if anyone happens to live in the Boston area, and has some time to talk about how to use these please lte me know. I'll buy dinner.

Jack, the Lighting Guy
Westborough Players Club
Westborough Community Chorus


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## NevilleLighting (Mar 13, 2010)

I would suggest the Leno if you can afford it. The material has a slight texture that picks up the light very well. Also, it's heavier and will move less if people cross over behind it. If you go with muslin get the heaviest weight you can.


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## Pie4Weebl (Mar 13, 2010)

jack63ss said:


> Thanks for everyones help. I think we are going to go with a white cyc, although I need to investigate muslin vs leno filled. We decided to wait on the scrim though, at least until I have a better understanding of how to use it (I keep worrying we'll buy it and never use it).



I love putting a black scrim in DS of both the cyc and the cyc lights, it gives you the ability to have nice colors up stage with out them blowing everything else out.


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## shiben (Mar 14, 2010)

Pie4Weebl said:


> I love putting a black scrim in DS of both the cyc and the cyc lights, it gives you the ability to have nice colors up stage with out them blowing everything else out.



And helps avoid the set looking like it has a giant white wall during changeovers or something.


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## metti (Mar 15, 2010)

Coincidentally, I just went through the process of choosing a cyc and scrim for an install I am consulting on so I have done a bunch of research into different options, configurations, etc. Anyway, I'm based out of Boston so if you're interested I would be happy to answer any questions that you have; just shoot me a PM.


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