# Operating Budgets - Recommendations



## Volunteer (Dec 11, 2012)

Let's say you were planning a 480 seat community auditorium. What realistic operating budgets would you recommend? (Real, not negociating numbers) 

Do your music and drama departments pay per performance, or are staff, student training costs, and supplies included in the "facility budget"? I assume a student crew? Either way, what are realistic figures?

Let's estimate: Classes in there every day, 10 music department concerts, 2 plays per year, a dozen+ community concerts, local dance troups, assemblies, movies, meetings, prom, etc. 

How would you estimate number of hours to estimate labor budgets? What about supplies, maintenance, equipment, capital improvements?

I can't find numbers anywhere. Do people not know their costs, or are they not willing to share them?
Can someone point me in the right direction?


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## Goph704 (Dec 11, 2012)

This is a rather large Question. it's not that people are trying to hide numbers from you it's just that it's really very hard to say. First off there is no standard, set answer. Budgets can range from as low as 2,000 a year to over 4 million annually, and this is just keeping in the realm of theater. Before any real numbers can be thrown out, You would have to break everything down into smaller chunks. Let me throw some Questions your way that might help.


1.Does this space actually exist or are you building it? 
2.What resources do you already have available? ie-what's in the space already?
3. What Grants might you be available for? 

4. Is it connected to a school or college or in anyway connected to a state budget?
_ is the space connected to a larger building? 
5. Who is going to be responsible for upkeep?
_ who Pays the electric Bill
_ who Covers the Insurance? 
_ who Covers the Heating and Air?
_ who is responsible For the building? 
6. Who pays employees? 
7.Will you need someone in the building by law at all times the space is open? 
_ What qualifications will that person need to have? 
_ Would there need to be more than one person? 
8. What in terms of scenery would be built in house, what would need to be shipped in?
_ is that enough to Merit the creation of a scene shop?
9. How Many people would need to work over 40 Hours a week? How many People would need to work under 40 hours a week? What benefits would they require? 


10. Would an AHJ approve this space as a performance space right now or do changes need to be made? 
11. What improvements need to be made to the facility in order for it to accommodate your needs? 
_ Sound 
_ Lights
_ Scenery
_Costumes
_ Rigging
12. How Many rooms would be required outside of the main performance area?
_ Offices
_ Classrooms
_ Box office
_ Green room 
_ Dressing rooms
13. What kind of power does the building have access to? 
_ would there need to be changes made to better accommodate the space a theater?
_ If so how would contractors and Consultants be hired? 
14. Do you need a Fly rail?
_ Do You need a Band shell? 
15. Where is parking? 
_ Are you going to need more? 


These are just starter questions. And they don’t even begin to work with arts admin questions like, Should actors be paid? What is a fair salary for Directors? How do we cover insurance for Volunteers? Etc…. I have separate ones regarding Now if your looking for estimated budgets, all of these things would be taken into account. I have a friend who runs a small community theater in No where North Carolina on an overall operating budget $500,000 Per year, and a friend running a space off Broadway for less than that $30,000 Per year and both of those include Salaried positions. Depending on How you answer the questions above has everything to do with how much the budget overall is. Also you might want to figure out if you even need a space at all, A good deal of companies I know aren’t even bothering with spaces any more. I’d recommend Checking out the following places if you haven’t already. 

Theater Communications group, 
National Endowment for the Arts, 
Art Search, 
United states Institute of Technology, 
And doing a general search on Arts Administration. 
And what ever state laws you have on theater. 

Good luck and keep asking questions here.


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## Goph704 (Dec 11, 2012)

Links to all of these should be available on this website.


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## Volunteer (Dec 12, 2012)

I appreciate your reply. Thank you. 

Classes in there every day, 10 music department concerts, 2 plays per year, a dozen+ community concerts, local dance troups, assemblies, movies, meetings, prom, etc. 

So, we are not talking about Broadway, we are not talking about Union scale or parking, or construction costs or expansion. I'm asking about operating budgets. 

Maybe we approach this another way. What are your current budgets, for anyone at this scale. Has anyone done a report giving (some details about size and scale for relating one space vs another) and then listing the actual costs for running the place?

At this point it doesn't matter if the school or the community is paying for the electricity, what are the bills for a space about 480 seats? If you run primarily student crews, (do you pay an adult supervisor) if so, what are those hours and costs? 

What are your current yearly costs for labor and materials? 

I assume there are hundreds of similar facilities out there running. There should be hundreds of budgets out there somewhere. Sure, there are many variables. What are the variables and what are the actual costs? 

Of all the arts organizations out there, does anyone have realistic budgets available to review?


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## Volunteer (Dec 12, 2012)

1.Does this space actually exist or are you building it? 
>Exists
2.What resources do you already have available? ie-what's in the space already?
>sound, lights, seats, piano, projector, screen,...
3. What Grants might you be available for? 
>What are the costs? Is grant writing cost part of your budget? If so, what?
4. Is it connected to a school or college or in anyway connected to a state budget?
>School
_ is the space connected to a larger building? 
>School
5. Who is going to be responsible for upkeep?
>Doesn't matter who for this question, school, community, users, state, county, who knows right now? What are your costs?
_ who Pays the electric Bill
>Doesn't matter, what are the costs? Do you pay the electric bills?
_ who Covers the Insurance? 
>Doesn't matter, what are the costs?
_ who Covers the Heating and Air?
>Doesn't matter, what are the costs?
_ who is responsible For the building? 
>Doesn't matter, what are the costs?
6. Who pays employees? 
>Doesn't matter, what are the costs?
7.Will you need someone in the building by law at all times the space is open? 
>no
_ What qualifications will that person need to have? 
>What do your person or staff have now?
_ Would there need to be more than one person? 
>not if there is a student crew, but what are the hours and costs for you now?
8. What in terms of scenery would be built in house, what would need to be shipped in?
>depends on the group, right?
_ is that enough to Merit the creation of a scene shop?
>no
9. How Many people would need to work over 40 Hours a week? How many People would need to work under 40 hours a week? What benefits would they require? 
>hopefully none, how many people do you have now working under 40 hours per week? What benefits wo you pay now, what are those costs now for you?
10. Would an AHJ approve this space as a performance space right now or do changes need to be made? 
>approve
11. What improvements need to be made to the facility in order for it to accommodate your needs? 
_ Sound 
_ Lights
_ Scenery
_Costumes
_ Rigging
>lets ignore all that now, what are current operation costs for your facilities? If you budget capital improvements, what are those numbers?
12. How Many rooms would be required outside of the main performance area?
_ Offices
_ Classrooms
_ Box office
_ Green room 
_ Dressing rooms
>Stage and dressing rooms
13. What kind of power does the building have access to? 
_ would there need to be changes made to better accommodate the space a theater?
_ If so how would contractors and Consultants be hired? 
>Are contractors and consultants part of your normal facility operating budgets? Let's say not.
14. Do you need a Fly rail?
>Need, want, What are your operating costs if you have a fully rigged fly system compared to not having one?
_ Do You need a Band shell? 
>If you have one, what are the costs for setup and take down?
15. Where is parking? 
_ Are you going to need more?
>Is parking upkeep part of your normal operating budget? Let's ignore parking for now.....

I know it all makes a difference. Then note the differences and show the numbers? With all the government funded and non-profit and national art management organizations out there, are there any budgets/costs/numbers out there?


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## sk8rsdad (Dec 12, 2012)

Sorry, but I am not going to play by your rules. If you are not interested in providing meaningful response to Goph704's well-considered list, then I am not interested in providing contingency details and essays of contingency on what might apply to yours.


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## Volunteer (Dec 12, 2012)

Seriously, I thought I did provide meaningful responses. Some of those questions are beyond the scope of the quesiton. Parking? You need to know if I need more parking in our parking lot, before you will answer a question about your yearly budget for lamps and gels? If I am out of line, please let's discuss that. Goph went into construction elements beyond the scope of the quesiton. It's a serious question and I mean no dis-respect nor am I being flippant with my answers.


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## Volunteer (Dec 12, 2012)

But also to the point, if you run a 2,000 seat venue and run 300 productions per year, your numbers won't help me. If you have a 450 school facility but run double the events listed, that would still help. If you don't know the cost of electricity, OK, but if you do for a similar situation, what are your numbers? OK, I'm an ass. Sorry. But any information you have (in a similar situation) might help the program we are trying to manage.... Think of the children....


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## Volunteer (Dec 12, 2012)

...though it be not written down, yet forget not that I am an ass.....


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## sk8rsdad (Dec 12, 2012)

​There are too many "Doesn't matters" and not enough "Does matter" in your response. 

Seriously, if you were drafting a budget for this place, what general ledger accounts would you create to track your spending? When you say _utilities _ don't matter does that mean your budget would not include utilities, because you are not responsible for them, or the utilities costs in Ontario Canada are the same as they are in Montana so provide that information too. I am far more inclined to provide fill-in-the-blank answers than to try to guess what blanks need filling. 

Here's a trivial example of what I mean:

_gel_- gel is not an operating expense in my facility, it is a production expense. Does gel belong in your operating budget?

_lamps_ - Are we talking about theatrical lamps, projector lamps, discharge lamps for the MLs, flourescent tubes, the parking lot lights, step and seat lighting, bathroom fixtures, or what? In my space, conventional lamps are around $500 to $1000 per year but it doesn't tell you much since you don't know how many conventionals I have, or how many hours of use they see in a year. I don't know how to convert those numbers to something meaningful for your facility because you haven't provided any way to translate.​


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## jstroming (Dec 12, 2012)

Volunteer, people on this site love to throw out more questions than answers. I get what your saying, and obviously people here only like to answer things on there own terms.

I would recommend you make friends locally with someone who knows the answer to this, or maybe a local city owned venue you could get their budget since its publically owned?


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## Volunteer (Dec 12, 2012)

Point taken.

At this moment in the discussion, who pays the electric bill is less important (doesn't matter) than what is the exectric bill (if you pay it) right? I didn't say the bill doesn't matter, I said it didn't matter whether the community pays or the school pays, the bill needs to be paid, so what are the numbers? For a 480 seat space, used sparingly, what is your electric bill, (with a variable such as number of events?) 

What grants might be available to me, is less important (doesn't matter) than what do you pay for labor, right? And if I was going to write for a grant, wouldn't they first ask me what is the budget needed?

If I were putting together a survey, I should include some sort of scale questions, ok. 
Number of seats, maybe width of performing space, number of shows per year, number of events per year, State/location, 



>$500 to $1000 per year but it doesn't tell you much since you don't know how many conventionals I have, or how many hours of use they see in a year.

Good point, if you run a 20' wide space and 2 events per year, that's different than 60' and 300 per year... 

So where would I find budgets of facilities similar, listing some of the affecting variables? Or spaces different with variables but spelled out so I can adjust for our space. Right now, I've still got nothing. What do you recommend?


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## Volunteer (Dec 12, 2012)

jstroming, understood, thanks. There is not enough local similar other up here. Ideally I'd get a sample of a few dozen similar spaces across the country, knowing there would be highs and lows. Some variables and needing to compensate. But I've been looking online for a while now and can't seem to get any public available data. No one seems to talk specific budgets or numbers. Maybe I should get a grant to do the surveys, to get the budget, to write a grant?  
One would think the NEA or artsactionfund or AEP or americansforthearts or any group here incredibleart.org/aeai/aeai.html ... would have done this already?


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## Aman121 (Dec 12, 2012)

Sorry but I'm not really understanding what position your in, and what this theatre really is. Is it a hs theatre, standalone community theatre, ect. Assuming it is attached to a school, I would assume that some factors such as building maintenance don't apply to the theatre operating budget. And you asking what it costs to run a theatre in terms of standard supplies ect, as opposed to managing a community theatre with paid staff and budgets that cover building maintenance and energy costs. 
Just trying to clarify a bit so we can better answer your question.


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## sk8rsdad (Dec 12, 2012)

General finances of registered charities are a matter of public record in Canada. There are a number of sites that aggregate information from the CRA (Canada's answer to IRS) website. The trick will be finding venues similar to yours. _Kanata Theatre_, _Ottawa Little Theatre_, and _Theatre Sarnia_ have similar sized venues (350-550) but very different operating models and facilities. I am sure there are others in the database. I don't know if the IRS offers a similar search. None of these get you to a detailed operating budget, but will give you an idea of the range of expense considerations.

Search | OpenCharity.ca


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## Volunteer (Dec 12, 2012)

I hate to say it, but it doesn't matter, does it? A community facility or a school facility, there is a cost for building maintenance, or energy costs that someone is paying. What is that number? If you don't pay it, the school pays it. Does anyone have any numbers? Does anyone pay their own utility bills, for a similar operation?

If the school is not providing operating costs, what might the community expect to find/budget/raise as operating costs? 

So far I get:
Conventional lamps $500-$1,000 (but, (good point) for what size and amount of use?)
Gels $0 productions/events pay for these. (Does anyone know what their productions pay?)

Of course my next set of questions is going to include "what does it cost per hour or day of actual operation" as opposed to "what does it cost per hour or day of idle non-operation"

480 seats, 45' wide proscenium. 
Classes in there every day, 10 music department concerts, 2 plays per year, a dozen+ community concerts, local dance troups, assemblies, movies, meetings, prom, etc. 

Per Year Costs:

I might imagine hiring a part-time TD/Production Manager to oversee the facility, schedule, equipment and operations, train volunteers and student crews. All-in to "make it work". 
I'll pay this poor sap 1,000 hours per year @ $9 per hour and budget $9,000. 
I'll expect volunteers and students to provide slave labor - pizza $5
I'll pay a union custodian, union wages, $70,000
I need conventional theatrical lamps, 100 lamps per year @ $11 is another $1,100
They need Gel, tape, tie-line, and other expendables, say $1,000
Repair and maintenance of equipment, replacing Altman sockets, connnectors, mic cords, the missing microphone once in a while, repainting the stage floor once a year, $635
Piano tuning $400
Replacement Tools for when the students forget and take them home $100
Saving up for larger equipment replacements, and stupid things like dropping your coke into the light board, $1,000
Utilities (electrical, water, heat): $12,000
Insurance: $12,000
Advertising: $240
Contractors and consultants $0
Toilet paper and soap for the restrooms $600
Parking: $1 

Gives me an operating cost of $ 14,081.00 
$38,081 adding utilities and insurance
and $108,081 if I want the toilet scrubbed once a week. 

So, I made up all these numbers. How do your actual numbers compare, and what line items am I forgetting?
Does anyone have any actual and real numbers? 
Bueller? 


...though it be not written down, yet forget not that I am an ass....


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## josh88 (Dec 12, 2012)

I have to agree with Sk8rsdad most of those things really do matter. My heating bill is paid by the school, it doesn't come out of my budget. and there's no way to determine cost of gel and such for all of that, the easiest way to ballpark that is look at what productions are "in house" and take your own budget. Budget say, $2000 for the set, $1000 for lights (expendables such as gel) and rentals) etc, budgeting a set amount gives you at least an idea. You could have the same exact theatre and gear and have 2 entirely different budgets depending on how the school funds it. 

For example my expenses as TD come out of our annual art deparment budget, if I want new gear it comes out of the capital investment fund. Different rental groups get different rates depending on their relationship with the school and some of those rentals give me money back, some go directly to the business office. Some of these questions you have to determine yourself. Because those are all variable depending on set ups. 

Goph's last paragraph really explains why your questions are too vague to get a concrete answer. I guarantee you no two facilities are going to be the same. Even given the EXACT same set up, leaving the heat on over breaks and the A/C on all summer could change a budget dramatically or budgeting $10,000 per show versus $200 per show.

My materials for sets run around $10,000 a year
expendables are around $1,000
However, some of this comes out of a seperate budget because we run a children's theatre out of the same space so it functions on its own with the school

Salaries total about $100,000
Maintenance and cleaning are $0 as the school covers it

you say you're trying to manage a program, what are you actually trying to accomplish with this? it would help narrow down answers.


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## DuckJordan (Dec 12, 2012)

Volunteer said:


> ...
> I'll pay this poor sap 1,000 hours per year @ $9 per hour and budget $9,000. ...



good luck getting a TD with that low amount of money, sorry I could make 4 dollars an hour more working at a call center and get benefits, (sure its more hours but its also $4/hr more) I'd say if you are wanting someone who can run that facility look at paying minimum $13/hr if not higher, no you don't need to provide benifits but your asking a lot of work from someone who makes just above minimum wage, btw I'm in the midwest so I know theater guys don't make squat for money but $9/hr is a joke.


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## DuckJordan (Dec 12, 2012)

More overall, a lot of the things that you say don't matter as far as finding a scope for your budget do. WHO pays the bills. That will decide whether you add that expense into your budget or if you don't include that. Honestly I don't know if you have enough information to figure this out yourself let alone the half information we are receiving on the board. 

When I worked for the local High school, about a 750 seat cap, 5 theater shows a year 15 concerts per year, class in the theater maybe twice a week. We had an operating budget of 10k, This included replacement lamps, consumables, Show materials (also got an add in $500 for each show just for materials). Any costs as far as TD, LD, SD, or any other consulting for the shows, Not to mention tools, any new equipment. 

That said we never ordered any more gel unless absolutely required. we where working with about 24 colortran ellipsoidals and 12 3 cell cyc units. No curtains were rented, and we used all house rags most of which were torn ripped or needed to be re FR. 

So when you provide a bit more information about who is paying the bills and what is coming out of your budget we can provide better answers.


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## JLNorthGA (Dec 12, 2012)

I'll bite on this one - as I belong to a similar community theatre.

Our community playhouse has 250 seats. 
We have between 12-20 concerts a year - usually 20.
We have 3-4 plays per year.
We have 3-4 dance recitals per year.
We have dance classes in the dance studio usually on Monday.
We have one day camp that lasts for two weeks.
We offer classes about 1 day/week - whenever there is a demand for it.

We are a non-profit and not affiliated with any institution.


Our utilities run us about $700/month - this includes phone, power, water - but not sewer as we're on septic.
Our lighting budget runs about $50/month for consumables - usually less. This is about $16/bulb and $7/gel.
Janitorial services run about $100/week - usually after events.
Paper goods (TP, paper towels, etc.) - $40/month.
Publicity - too many variable - as we're a non-profit - we get a lot of PSAs and free news articles. When we pay for publicity - we do it in our small town local newspapers. This runs us maybe $400 per event. We usually put up signs on the road - those cost us about $200 for all the signs. A volunteer places them and then picks them up.
ASCAP/BMI fees - about $1000/year
Association fees (AACT, Chamber of Commerce (several), etc) - $1000+
Insurance - $1000/year
Accountant - $188/month - and worth every penny of it.

Set budget for plays - $500/play
Tickets - $30 for concerts $180 for plays (6 nights)

Salaries - $0 - we're all volunteer - this includes actors, directors, set builders, lighting people, sound techs, office personnel, etc. The only people paid are the visiting musical acts.
Their fees vary a bit. If we had to pay our volunteers - that would be several hundred thousand dollars at least.


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## chausman (Dec 12, 2012)

DuckJordan said:


> good luck getting a TD with that low amount of money, sorry I could make 4 dollars an hour more working at a call center and get benefits, (sure its more hours but its also $4/hr more) I'd say if you are wanting someone who can run that facility look at paying minimum $13/hr if not higher, no you don't need to provide benifits but your asking a lot of work from someone who makes just above minimum wage, btw I'm in the midwest so I know theater guys don't make squat for money but $9/hr is a joke.



To prove Ducks point, I make $10 an hour as a student for outside events, as a Freshman.

As far as the numbers you threw out, those almost all seem low.


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## Volunteer (Dec 12, 2012)

Aman: Specifically then, if it will get me some numbers, I'm talking about a facility that was built as part of a high school. The community paid for most of the construction costs so it's supposed to be a joint school/community facility. 
The school promised to manage and provide for operations. They are not managing nor providing for operations. 

I would like to organize a community revolt and offer to lease the facility from the school and take over operations. Which will never happen. But, what might a budget look like?
If the school says, "you pay utilities", what might I lay on the table as an average across the country, for a facility like this? Or if they say, "we pay utilities, you owe us", what are they contributing?

What might a budget look like?

How much might I have to beg from the local business owners and arts supporters? (That is directly related to the number of butts that have to be kissed.) 

What sort of realistic operating budget does anyone else operate under? 
What actual costs are other people facing?


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## DuckJordan (Dec 12, 2012)

considering its a school owned facility, even if the community paid for most of it, you are going to have a hard time getting control of that facility. Right now I work in a city owned arts center. It won't be as easy as walking in as a community and saying we will run this place. You will have to get the student board to agree, as well as the city to agree, since this is a public building. you may have to establish a company in order to manage the facility, Not to mention they were placed in control so they likely tied into all the "utilities" to the school building and the only way to get that changed is going to cost bookoo bucks. 

The numbers are probably gonna cost a "non government" agency close to a mill a year just in operational budget this would include hiring staff, hiring security, keeping the lights on, keeping the sewage paid, making sure everything remains safe. Also being apart of a school facility you'll have to abide by their rules. Unless you can physically separate the building from the other. (Locked doors, no access to the school without proper ID and approval.) then this probably won't ever happen. Unfortunately talking budget is a moot point. Thats a very small factor in this whole deal. I would suggest instead of trying to run it out right is join the board of administrators (run for the position) and get the changes done through the school.


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## Volunteer (Dec 12, 2012)

Sk8 - I didn't think to look at Canada. Good idea. 

>good luck getting a TD with that low amount of money
I agree, but the school won't even pay $9. I've been there for 8 years and the only time they offered to pay me anything (one event, just recently) the pay ended up to be less than $1 per hour. They want to have a teacher administrate the place and have "someone" take care of the tech. We'll write a grant!
Can you say burned out?

Separate issue - we don't really know the costs do we. So many are hidden or "other" covered costs. How can we know what is profitable when so many of the costs are hidden like that. We have to evolve to compete with the alternatives out there. Hard to do when we dont know what they are.

Duck - Thank you! >When I worked for the local High school, about a 750 seat cap, 5 theater shows a year 15 concerts per year, class in the theater maybe twice a week. We had an operating budget of 10k, This included replacement lamps, consumables, Show materials (also got an add in $500 for each show just for materials). Any costs as far as TD, LD, SD, or any other consulting for the shows, Not to mention tools, any new equipment. 

Your labor costs TD, LD, SD tools equipment, were also part of that $10K +$500 per show? Wow, pretty tight. Did you keep ticket sales, or did the groups keep that separate?

JL - >I'll bite on this one 
Thanks. Those figures look very reasonable, Your labor being all volunteer makes it work, wow. How wide is your playing space or proscenium? 
>If we had to pay our volunteers - that would be several hundred thousand dollars at least. 
How do you keep them feeling paid in what they get out of the experience? How do you keep that going?

>As far as the numbers you threw out, those almost all seem low. 
I agree, but tounge firmly in cheek, probably unreasonably high.


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## DuckJordan (Dec 12, 2012)

we didn't keep any ticket sales, it all went to the business office. It was all done in house to no outside shows. To give an idea of the size of the space its a 50' wide 30' tall opening. the stage itself was 80' x 40' so a very wide stage with a not so deep.


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## josh88 (Dec 12, 2012)

As duck mentioned, having "paid" for it doesn't mean you own it, it means, if you're lucky, you get a plaque on the wall that says we kindly thank you for your generous donations. It's worse that it's physically attached to the school, but more to the point, it would be remarkably difficult to try to wrestle it out of the districts hands. Who went into this "agreement" and who do you report to? Was there a contract that specifically spelled it out and said if one party doesn't hold up to the agreement talk to the mayor to get it fixed? My point is I doubt there is a higher power for you to appeal to outside of the group who isn't managing things the way you like. And you have no real recourse to take it from them. You'll say we all say give it to us, and they will say no. 

Realistically if you want this information, ask the school. They (I assume) are a public school so they should be able to make that information available as far as what the costs are. That would give you exactly the answer instead of other people giving you ballpark figures for other facilities. do you have anybody on your side that actually knows what they are doing when it comes to theatre management? I mean no offense but what makes you think your group will manage it better if you don't have anybody who has done this before? 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Volunteer (Dec 12, 2012)

>even if the community paid for most of it, you are going to have a hard time getting control of that facility. 
HAHAHA, I just came from a meeting which pretty much said that. They don't know how to run the space, don't have the money to run the space, and won't let someone else run it. And expect "someone" will come in and do it for them. 

>I would suggest instead of trying to run it out right is join the board of administrators (run for the position) and get the changes done through the school. 
Can't happen. They wrote it down, and call me Dogberry already.

The approach seems to need to be: "Safety, Student Education, Liability - It's a specialized classroom and learning space, with unique needs, that is not fully functioning." Meeting with the Superintendant Monday....


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## Volunteer (Dec 12, 2012)

Yes, ultimately we are screwed and have no recourse. The administration that made the "deals" with the community, to get the entire school built in the first place, are long gone. Yup, big mistake, huge. 
They are dis-avowing any community expectations at all. 
School is not forthcoming with info at all. 
>do you have anybody on your side that actually knows what they are doing when it comes to theatre management? 
 In the country of the blind, the one-eyed man is king!


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## JLNorthGA (Dec 13, 2012)

Volunteer said:


> JL - >I'll bite on this one
> Thanks. Those figures look very reasonable, Your labor being all volunteer makes it work, wow. How wide is your playing space or proscenium?
> >If we had to pay our volunteers - that would be several hundred thousand dollars at least.
> How do you keep them feeling paid in what they get out of the experience? How do you keep that going?



Our proscenium opening is 30' W x 16' H. Our apron is ~11'. The stage depth is ~24' D.

As I said, it is a community playhouse. Our volunteers are quite dedicated.

Some other numbers on plays - our operating budget for a play (not a musical) is typically $3000. That covers scripts, peformance rights, sets, lights, etc. Musicals are higher - while the actors are not paid - we do give a token payment to the musicians. The rights for musicals are also much higher.

Maintenance budget - I scrape by on about $3000/year. HVAC, Electrical, paint, etc. Fortunately I can do a lot of the work myself.

Website - factor in that for a cost - we've got a guy who maintains for free - but you've got to pay for hosting one - so figure on some $ for that.


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## josh88 (Dec 13, 2012)

Volunteer said:


> In the country of the blind, the one-eyed man is king!



Having one eye however doesn't make a good king.

It's a pretty drastic measure and someone may correct me if I'm wrong but being a public school you could compel them to show you the numbers whether they want to. Freedom of information act should allow you to see that. File a request and they'll have to show you.

Realistically trying to force control over to your group won't happen and when the building was finished the school was handed the keys i bet, and nobody outside got one. trying to "revolt" will only further sour opinions and create more hostility.compromise in this case is your friend and finding some sort of solution that fits both needs is the best scenario. Volunteering your time and energy may be the only thing you can do. 


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## Goph704 (Dec 13, 2012)

Hello again, Sorry I've been busy the past few days. 
Thank you for some of the answers that I was looking for, I'm able to help you a little bit better now. Those were some of the questions we were kicking around on the space that I was consulting on this summer. Part of what we did was create an estimated budget for the first three years. Would you like to be able to figure up a budget estimate for your space? I can Help you figure that out for no cost if you are interested, but those are much more formulas than hard numbers.

If you would like some hard numbers look here. If you click on a theater, then you will find an overall budget number for finances. This is one of the websites I listed in my first post. 
http://www.tcg.org/tools/profiles/member_profiles/profile_results.cfm 
also if you pick up a phone, you would be best to talk to people in your State. If you explain your story then they might be more willing to help. They will also know local vendors. 
Montana Acting; Montana Theatre Links

You need the previous information for a venue in a similar situation. There are a few. Once you find this place if they are state run then that information will be a line item in their states budget. These are not hidden costs, They are a matter of public record and and available to any one who asks. Those numbers are hard to find and you will need help. Finding that number will take you a long time and it will not help you. I used to work for a Community college that ran a community Center very close to what was originally supported by your people. The college took care of the facilities budget. If you PM me I will be happy to get you some contact info for the guy who heads up that space. He can advise you in the finances of that space far better than I can. 
I suggest you listen to Duck about how to proceed, as his idea of running for a county position is going to be your best bet. I would also suggest finding a way that the existing space can bring in outside money, as well as finding community money that can help you build an argument to keep the Auditorium open. ( taking a night class on grant writing can never hurt you ) This really would be the best way that we can help you make this happen. 
In My position I am only responsible for lighting. I'm not comfortable posting budget numbers for my department on this public forum at this point, but I would be happy to share some of the formulas I use to make annul estimates in terms of lighting. I do admire your passion right now, but I feel like it's a little misplaced. I hope that you can use us as a resource to actually keep your venue open, which is what I'm sure that we are all in favor of and willing to support. Which leads to another question, Is the Venue open in any way whatsoever right now? How are you connected to the Venue?


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## Volunteer (Dec 14, 2012)

>what are you actually trying to accomplish with this?

Taking that as, "what's the overall goal?"

Hmmmm. 

1. I would like to come into the space to do a 90 minute event and not have to spend a day (8 hours) cleaning the stage and house, replacing sockets on the Altmans, re-lamping a dozen fixtures, re-soldering the mic cables, replacing the burned color, troubleshooting audio channel one, fixing the running lights,... (every fricken time) in a facility that someone is supposed to be managing. 

2. I'd love to create a student training program. 

3. Crate a master schedule that includes changeovers and integration of technical elements between groups.

4. That we support all the users of the space and not leave them hanging trying to figure out how to turn the lights on or get a mic working. 

5. Create an organized and efficiently operating facility. 

6. Add more storage space. 

7. And "enjoy" doing a show once in a while. 


I guess the biggest thing for me is seeing the community's 100+ little kids try out to do the Missoula Children's touring show. The 160+ girls in the local dance company. The 190+ kids in the music program, the 30 doing a play.... Hearing bluegrass music one day and African drums the next. (And this is a tiny community.) Not that I have a pedophilia issue or anything....

It breaks my heart to see the community effort and energy being neglected, and a facility that has such potential, but is being run into the ground.  


Website, yes. I think including a "Community Box Office" so all the events can work together and share resources, and all ticket buyers know where to go and go to one place for tickets and event information. 

Remember I am a drama person. "Revolt" metaphorically speaking. I'll head in today (hopefully) to see the school board minutes from that time period and see the actual discussions.


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## Volunteer (Dec 14, 2012)

Side note:
To complicate the matters, the local economies have been hit hard, not just by 09, but by the Federal limitations on logging. This gutted the community and many families. 

We are also in a strange position from the County Government standpoint. There are 3 county "supervisors". Two, represent the two similar communities together about 90 miutes away from the third community. The third (our) community always has two votes against us. It's hard to get any County efforts accomplished.
From a State standpoint, All I hear from every school, is "we have no money".

>"Revolt" - I would imagine a partnership could be the the best solution for everyone. We have volunteers, expertise and money, they have the responsibility for a community-built facility. Let's work together. ( But let's face it, would you work with me? Maybe I need a "beard".) 

>I can Help you figure that out for no cost if you are interested,
That is extremely kind and generous of you, thank you. Before we do that, let me have the next meeting with the school's head honcho first. I might have a better direction then. (or will have quit my volunteer efforts)

It might make it easier to convince him to lease us the space if he hears, "It will take you $942,548.67 per year to operate this facility in a safe manner. Here is the realistic budget you face. Leasing it to the community is a better solution for you and your students." 
But probably not. 


>Those numbers are hard to find and you will need help. Finding that number will take you a long time and it will not help you.
You are probably very right. 
- real data in those links, much is just too general -
But, I'll keep looking, thanks.

Part of what I do see is to expect expenses to be paid for, less by earned income and will probably need more from contributions. 
"Smaller theatres, with budgets under $1 million, tended to be much more reliant on contributed income, which made them vulnerable to a tighter giving climate. Proportionally, they received a higher percentage of their funding from non-trustee individuals, state and federal government sources and foundations. They raised more of their budget from holding fundraising events and garnering in-kind donations."


>I'm not comfortable posting budget numbers for my department on this public forum at this point, 
Maybe most people feel the same way? And maybe that's why I don't find actual numbers out there?


>I do admire your passion right now, but I feel like it's a little misplaced. 
Seriously, (really) where might it be better placed? School board or county government? I think that would be misplaced. I do think we need a new Federal Civil Rights Title IX.V providing for equal funding for arts as to sports.

>Which leads to another question, Is the Venue open in any way whatsoever right now? 
Yes, open and a disaster waiting to happen. Hopefully just someone dropping a crescent wrench and not a Station Nightclub.

>How are you connected to the Venue? 
I think about that alot. I'm even unclear about it. 

Meanwhile at Sandy Hook Elementary School... Dang. 

Nevermind.


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## museav (Dec 15, 2012)

Volunteer said:


> Aman: Specifically then, if it will get me some numbers, I'm talking about a facility that was built as part of a high school. The community paid for most of the construction costs so it's supposed to be a joint school/community facility.
> The school promised to manage and provide for operations. They are not managing nor providing for operations.
> 
> I would like to organize a community revolt and offer to lease the facility from the school and take over operations. Which will never happen. But, what might a budget look like?


Having been involved with several public/private partnership performing arts facilities I have to ask why you looking at leasing or 'taking over' the venue as that seems to entail all sorts of potential legal and practical details and pifalls? As Duck noted, instead of some undefined entity leasing the venue, have you considered forming a company that the Owner would then contract to manage/operate the venue? That is more common and seems likely to alleviate or simplify many of the issues related to responsibility and authority as well as practical issues related to shared building facilities and systems.

In either case, before you can define the costs themselves you need to identify what costs are part of the operations budget. Until you have an agreement in place or at least an outline for one then how do you know how utilities and basic services costs will be handled, much less what they might be? Would you be hiring labor, purchasing supplies, etc. or would it be the Owner (which as private versus public entities might be two very different situations)? And what costs would be considered production rather than operating costs?

You might also want to consider the other side in terms of what you are offering them. What I don't seem to see mentioned is a 'sales pitch' for how this would benefit the Owner and/or the community and anything addressing the return on investment as well as how this would work in the long run. I say this as I have been involved in a project where the private group basically took over and the school got stuck with the bills and minimal return and another project where once the private entity put in their money and got the facility running the school pushed them out. You probably need to present how you see this being a viable long term arrangement and the potential advantages to the Owner or you have given them no reason to listen to you regardless of the costs involved.


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## museav (Dec 15, 2012)

jstroming said:


> Volunteer, people on this site love to throw out more questions than answers. I get what your saying, and obviously people here only like to answer things on there own terms.


Or perhaps they have seen the potential implications of assumptions and/or unasked/unanswered questions and prefer to offer as informed responses as possible.


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