# Tying knots in aircraft cable.



## Footer

What kind of knot is this? How does it compare to other forms of cable termination in terms of loading/termination efficiency? Should it ever be used? Why or why not? 

As usual, professionals please wait one week before posting. 

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## erosing

What kind of knot is this?
Circus knot/circus hitch/(one of the big three's name) knot

How does it compare to other forms of cable termination in terms of loading/termination efficiency? 
As you can see from the picture it is a, relatively, fast method of using wire rope, as there is no additional tools/parts needed to terminate it. However, it will not have the same strength of a more "normal" method of termination. 

Should it ever be used? Why or why not?
This depends on who you ask.

Yes, in temporary situations only. But also only by those that have been trained how to tie it properly, and know exactly what it's limitations are. Even then, as sparingly as possible. 

No, unless you are a proffesional rigger or are under the supervision/teaching of one (or have been taught by one and know it's limitations).

I say: this is a dangerous knot, especially when people forget how to tie it correctly (I've seen people forget to tie the clove hitch first). People see that picture and the others associated with it, or have learned it from another source and try learning to tie it. Then they try it for real and can't remember how to do it. That said, I have never chosen to use it. 

A few other concerns I'm not going into:
How long should the tail be?
Which direction should you go, and does it matter?
Can you use the rope afterwards (clip end or trash completely)? 
How much should you clip?
Where can you I find someone to teach me this knot (good luck)?
How much weight can it hold?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## techfreek

I have tied this knot a few times. It was taught to us as the "circus knot" from what I remember it is used when circus's are setting up their tents, they use this knot. They had us use this knot for rigging a few signs, but we do not use it a lot. I will say this is a fast knot to tie.... if you have strong enough hands (not easy bending aircraft cable around itself in that small of a space)


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## What Rigger?

I know the answer!!! But I'll wait a week.... :-+


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## mjw56

Ill second the circus hitch. Since its based on a clove hitch ill say it has a 25% strength reduction for the clove(pg 7-29)and another strength reduction for the bend around the pipe(pg 7-23). I wouldn't use it for overhead lifting, or anywhere life safety comes into play.
sources: Entertainment Rigging by Harry Donovan


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## MisterTim

That looks like what would be a Haywire Twist in fishing. I know it's relatively strong and safe for overhead use, because every single drop ceiling I've worked inside is held up with this type of knot.


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## venuetech

Well I can see which flying company you have worked with.


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## MNicolai

MisterTim said:


> That looks like what would be a Haywire Twist in fishing. I know it's relatively strong and safe for overhead use, because every single drop ceiling I've worked inside is held up with this type of knot.


 
Overhead use meaning that there are so many "lift lines" that nearly half of them could fail and your ceiling will still be in place. It's by sheer over-engineering that this is "safe for overhead use." It works for what it's used for, but you wouldn't use that for hanging flats from the battens in your theatre.


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## Scarrgo

Have used this to tie off the truss for flying gigs. Used to prevent left right movement.

Sean...


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## mstaylor

I have seen it in use but will wait the prescibed time to enlighten.


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## ship

Arez said:


> What kind of knot is this?
> Circus knot/circus hitch/(one of the big three's name) knot
> 
> How does it compare to other forms of cable termination in terms of loading/termination efficiency?
> As you can see from the picture it is a, relatively, fast method of using wire rope, as there is no additional tools/parts needed to terminate it. However, it will not have the same strength of a more "normal" method of termination.
> 
> Should it ever be used? Why or why not?
> This depends on who you ask.
> 
> Yes, in temporary situations only. But also only by those that have been trained how to tie it properly, and know exactly what it's limitations are. Even then, as sparingly as possible.
> 
> No, unless you are a proffesional rigger or are under the supervision/teaching of one (or have been taught by one and know it's limitations).
> 
> I say: this is a dangerous knot, especially when people forget how to tie it correctly (I've seen people forget to tie the clove hitch first). People see that picture and the others associated with it, or have learned it from another source and try learning to tie it. Then they try it for real and can't remember how to do it. That said, I have never chosen to use it.
> 
> A few other concerns I'm not going into:
> How long should the tail be?
> Which direction should you go, and does it matter?
> Can you use the rope afterwards (clip end or trash completely)?
> How much should you clip?
> Where can you I find someone to teach me this knot (good luck)?
> How much weight can it hold?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 
Good clove hitch point that I would normally do anyway in such an application in not thinking of noting as a necessary part of the knot's application. (The two knots as presented permissable for wire rope), but I believe I count seven wraps and not the ten I was trained in using. Is this a proper Circus knot? This me not saying efficiency ratings for it, extra length etc. Really really useful if you drop your last wire rope clip on the other hand, and have no more spares. Temporary wiring but cool to do when around newbees these days...

On the details, many of us know it... sorry it's specific technique is against CB rules for teching on-line. That's one of them things you gotta learn on-site and in personal.


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## LXQuito

I've seen it in use and used it myself in a few specific applications, but like the other pros, I'll wait until the prescribed time to elaborate.


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## MNicolai

Focusing in more on the topic at hand, it's worth noting that the previous comments about this being used in drop ceilings is usually a task done with bailing wire and not aircraft cable. For that matter, it's the same way my acoustical clouds above my audience are suspended. I wouldn't recommend it as some of the lines aren't pulling much (any?) of the weight and after the contractor put them in at the wrong angles and the wrong heights, there were so many in place that it would've been very costly to fix.

It does look near the PVC that this knot somewhat resembles that of a clove hitch, known well for it's ability to be adjusted after it's been tied. With the added twists and such, I couldn't comment as to whether or not this knot is also cable of that functionality without actually tying it myself.


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## mstaylor

I saw this used in circus rigging. We did the tech for the Moscow Circus some years back and the show riggers used no shackles at all. Everything was terminated using this knot. I wouldn't use it to hang people from but they sure did.


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## michael728

if you don't know a knot, tie a lot. this knot looks like a wannabe clove hitch.


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## mstaylor

michael728 said:


> if you don't know a knot, tie a lot. this knot looks like a wannabe clove hitch.


It is a clove on the pipe but I'm not sure what they tied to retain it.


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## Chris15

It's been a week now, so I can buy in...
The conventional wisdom is that if you aren't Foy, you shouldn't be tying knots in wire rope.
Discuss if you wish...


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## BryanKacz

I've heard it called a Foy Knot, but then again people who work for Flying by Foy have told us to call it a Carney Knot.


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## mstaylor

Where I saw the Russians do it, they hung all their own acts with my crew supervising. My crew also hung all the US equipment.


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## ship

Where I tied the knot, I was taught ten wrapps up and down, and this only were your lost the last wire rope clips in parts and needed to get more but also secure the line. I have never used such a thing in production but was told it was as efficient as a wire rope clip - 60% or 80% wasn't told to me on efficiency.


Yes, it will hold and probably be fine in direct instruction for teaching but it's also something that is last resort for most purposes. Circus knot can be done, but just cause it can be done does not mean anyone shoud start using it.


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## 2mojo2

That is not the accepted method of installing suspended ceilings.
Ceilings are hung on #10 solid steel wire that is passed once through the hole in the ceiling main and then wound tightly with a pair of Kleins.
The free end is clipped short, not passed back through the bottom of the hitch.
It is a technique that commercial carpenters must learn.

While there is little in the photo to give perspective, that looks more like picture hanging wire than substantial wire rope.


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## Footer

Here is a website that will give a bit further explenation on how this is tied. 

A few questions have yet to be answered about the circus knot. 

Why should it be used or why should it not be used? What physically is wrong with it that should keep it out of the world of entertainment rigging? 

Is it safer or less safe then crosby clips, swagging sleeves, or a gripple?


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## MPowers

Now that I can chime in, as several have said, the knot pictured is what is commonly known as a circus knot. 

Now, tying knots in wire rope, good idea or not? A little history here. Back in the stone age when I first learned rigging, one of the common ways to attach a permanent lift line to a batten was with a clove hitch, plus two half hitches and a single cable clip. It was a secure and reliable way to make an attachment, ..... if you only needed 50% of the cable strength as a maximum. Destructive tests showed that the cable clip had very little to do with the strength of the attachment, when it broke, it always broke at the first 90 turn of the clove hitch, and at anywhere from 45% to 60% of the cable breaking strength. Today we have as an industry grown and developed such that the least acceptable attachment method for permanent connections is a properly terminated cable with a thimble then a trim chain or batten clamp or other rated attachment. So if you are a professional rigger, know the loads and forces that will be involved, know the strength of the cable, then it can be good. A young rigger, student, community theatre volunteer, then no, don't use a circus knot or any knots in wire rope, it's just not worth the consequences if you're wrong. 

Now, back to the circus hitch. First, when used by professionals, it was/is never intended as a permanent attachment. It was developed by riggers with touring shows and fit their world of quick set up, no tools, no parts to lose or store, quick strike without tools, back in the kit and "on the road again" (thank you Willie!). In the situation for which it was developed, it can be a good attachment solution.


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## derekleffew

A quote by Bill Sapsis, (from a long time ago, possibly even before other flying effects companies existed):

> The only people who should be allowed to tie knots in aircraft cable are the Foy people.


Several important points:
1. The circus knot starts with a clove hitch, which does all of the work. The rest of the knot is just to keep the clove in place.
2. The clove hitch IS NOT any longer, the preferred attachment for a cable to a batten.
3. The circus knot should only be used with wire rope, and even then, only by professionals who know all the factors involved.

For a real-world, though by no means conclusive or representative, evidentiary testing, 
see *Test #1G*, on this site by Delbert, which, by the way, is where the original picture came from.


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## MPowers

For everyone reading this thread, the following is part of a private disscussion that I thought would shed some light on the why's and wherefore's, good and bad, about using the Circus Hitch, 


> this half hitch to wire rope I think the real problem, applying the end fitting - no matter if clip or Circus knot, but I wouldn't think it proper if it has half hitches in it, and I assume the cause of failure.




> In my own training and readings, the half hitch should never be used on wire rope.



Actually, The half hitches were, like the circus knot wraps, merely a way to prevent slipping at the clove hitch should there be momentary "bounces" or slack or shock loading in the rig. They actually took no weight and were tied with the same degree of looseness as the circus hitch loops in the picture at the top of this thread. The double half hitch method, taught as common practice in the '50's and 60's, was an out growth of hemp house or fiber rope rigging, which was an out growth of navel rigging on sailing vessels, when attaching to a wooden or pipe batten with a clove hitch. The reason we used to use clove hitches was to prevent the rope from sliding along the pipe, that is really the way a clove hitch is designed to work, to cinch around a smooth beam, spar, mast, log, etc and not slip even if there is only one line doing the lifting. 

When using a 10 ton test rig for destructive testing, subjecting this, and various other methods of attaching wire rope to a pipe using clove hitches, the knot always, repeat always, failed at the clove hitch where the live end first entered the knot. Usually at about 40% to 50% of the rated breaking strength of the GAC. If you think about it or look at it, a well tied clove hitch bends the line, whether wire rope or hemp rope or cord, etc. at a hard 90 degree bend right there, thus tremendously weakening the line.

I do not use nor will I allow workers working for me to put any knots in wire rope. As noted above, the clove hitch is the failure point, not half hitches or circus knot wraps.


> Real question before I install some on some pipe is if the clove hitch followed by the proper amount of drop forged wire rope clips proper to use? And is the clove hitch one of only two knots permissable for wire rope - assuming the Circus Knot is the second and only with proper (it would seem differences in them) local training in tying them? Or have rigging practices changed in the clove hitch no longe in favor? Terminating how ever it's done in wrapping the pipe. Is it only pipe clamp now permissable or the clove hitch around the pipe when properly terminated also permissable?



For permanent installations, no knot is permissible in current common practice. Today I would NEVER use a clove hitch with wire rope on a permanent installation. The proper way to terminate a line to a batten is with trim chain and rated and properly moused screw pin shackles, or rated and properly moused turnbuckles attached to a batten clamp.

If for some reason you must attach wire rope directly to a pipe batten, wrap it 1 1/2 times around the pipe and then attach the proper number of clips for the wire size. Attach the first clip at least the diameter of the pipe away from the pipe, (the spacing is to prevent a sharp bend where the GAC enters and leaves the clip, thus weakening the GAC) i.e. if using schedule 40, 1 1/2" pipe, the closest clip should be at least 2" away. This should NOT be done as a permanent batten attachment, but only as a temporary, single event rigging. This will be at least twice as strong any attachment method that uses a clove hitch (or any other knot in the rope.


> Don't know and looking to your advice on this and the above questions about different styles of application of such a knot seemingly. I think the Clove hitch is fine when terminated on Nico press oval sleeves or wire rope clips dependent on the install.



The properly used circus hitch now is used for short term installs such as short run aerialists, one or two week road shows and such types of uses. They are designed to be easy and very quick to install and strike without tools of any kind and with no parts or hardware to find, store or lose. They should only be used by knowledgeable, professional (preferably ETCP Certified) riggers and the cable or GAC being used is derated by 50% at least.

Hope this helps.


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## mstaylor

A really good explanation of past common usage of wire rope and tying knots. I personally have never tied wire rope but have seen it used by circus arealists.


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## Radman

I learned this knot from one of the guys at ZFX. He called it a circus knot and we used it for the guy lines only, i.e. just to prevent horizontal movement. It was never used to bear a load, and this was a temporary setup. I have also used this occasionally on the road for quickly securing light scenic elements to a truss. As was mentioned, this knot does create a sharp bend in the wire, so for safety's sake I always just cut the wire off the truss and dispose of the knotted end. (The time savings is a nice bonus.)


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## erosing

> What kind of knot is this?


Circus knot/circus hitch


> How does it compare to other forms of cable termination in terms of loading/termination efficiency?


As you can see from the picture it is a, relatively, fast method of using wire rope, as there is no additional tools/parts needed to terminate it. However, it will not have the same strength of a more "normal" method of termination.


> Should it ever be used? Why or why not?


This depends on who you ask.
Yes, in temporary situations only. But also, only by those that have been trained how to tie it properly, even then, as sparingly as possible.

No, unless you are a profesional rigger or are under the supervision/teaching of one (or have been taught by one).

This is a dangerous knot, especially when people forget to tie the clove hitch first (or tie it incorrectly).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Radman said:


> As was mentioned, this knot does create a sharp bend in the wire, so for safety's sake I always just cut the wire off the truss and dispose of the knotted end. (The time savings is a nice bonus.)



Anyone considering using this not should note that not only _should_ you cut the used portion of the wire, you absolutely *must* cut it off. 

Leaving a kink or bend in wire rope is another thing that makes this knot so dangerous to use by those who don't understand it.


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## MNicolai

Arez said:


> Anyone considering using this not should note that not only _should_ you cut the used portion of the wire, you absolutely *must* cut it off.
> 
> Leaving a kink or bend in wire rope is another thing that makes this knot so dangerous to use by those who don't understand it.



Metal fatigue happens. Shortly thereafter -- so does gravity.


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## Delbert

This is my photo and people have correctly identified it as a circus hitch. It will hold 60% of the BS of the cable. It is one of several knots that can be tied in small diameter 7x19 GAC. I am tested the efficiency of several other knots in wire rope. Some can hold up to 100% of the BS of the cable. BTW, ALL flying effects companies use this knot regularly for making guy wires.

-Delbert Hall
D2 Flying Effects
ETCP Certified Rigger


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## Delbert

I am working on an article that describes, step-by-step, how to tie several knots and quick splices in cable. I have done destructive testing to verify the holding capacity of each knot/splice.


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## DuckJordan

Delbert said:


> I am working on an article that describes, step-by-step, how to tie several knots and quick splices in cable. I have done destructive testing to verify the holding capacity of each knot/splice.


 

Just don't post it here, It would be a violation to show a step by step process, even with the relaxed feel now. just enough knowledge to get it done is very dangerous (this coming from someone who has never done any rigging and probably wont for a while.)


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## Footer

DuckJordan said:


> Just don't post it here, It would be a violation to show a step by step process, even with the relaxed feel now. just enough knowledge to get it done is very dangerous (this coming from someone who has never done any rigging and probably wont for a while.)


 
There is nothing in the TOS that forbids it. Delbert is a trusted member of the theatre community, there is no reason to doubt anything he would post would be more than safe in the right hands. With anything safety related, a lack of knowledge can be more dangerous then the knowledge itself. I would much rather see this information come from a trusted source then nothing at all . 

Sent from my HTC Incredible


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## bobgaggle

Just found this thread, did this article ever get published?


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## BillConnerFASTC

I'm not advocating anyone use knots to terminate wire rope but can someone point to evidence - even anecdotal - that one has ever failed? That is what I'm asked about my technical objections to grade 30 trim chain. Where in a standard does it say knots are not permitted? I can point to the standard which prohibits grade 30 from overhead lifting applications.


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## Chris15

Delbert Hall load tested a circus hitched piece of GAC, Test 1G here: http://www.d2flying.com/loadlab/USITT.html

Breaking strength was over 80% of the breaking strength of the cable...


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## Euphroe

Go Delbert! This is the kind of knowledge that should be preserved even if superceded. 

Like the flipline hitch in wire core rope:  

Competent riggers know how to use every gadget in the catalog. Really good riggers can meet a challenge safely without the gadgets if necessary.


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## MikeJ

Yes it May be efficient, but a whole bunch of stupid theater tech kids on the internet, just read that it was safe to use, and will now proceed to tie it incorrectly, because they are now experts at rigging.


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## Euphroe

Thinking back and I am pretty sure I learned the circus hitch from Peter Foy, who shared that and a lot of other dangerous information that MikeJ would throw down the memory hole. He differs in that regard from Foy, Donovan, Paulson, Glerum, Higgs . . . and Hall, who neither feared/fear information, nor viewed the incoming generation with contempt, thank goodness.


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## BillConnerFASTC

MikeJ said:


> Yes it May be efficient, but a whole bunch of stupid theater tech kids on the internet, just read that it was safe to use, and will now proceed to tie it incorrectly, because they are now experts at rigging.



What method or technique for terminating wire rope mentioned here or anywhere couldn't be done incorrectly?


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## MikeJ

MNicolai said:


> Metal fatigue happens. Shortly thereafter -- so does gravity.


Actually, gravity is a constant force.


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## MNicolai

MikeJ said:


> Actually, gravity is a constant force.



You know, I actually reread that post this morning and thought that same thing.

More on topic, I don't consider the circus hitch a knot to be used for lifting. When I use it, it's strictly for guylines for positioning things which are being lifted by other means. Just because you *can* do something without hardware in the name of efficiency doesn't mean you *should*.

I'd venture a guess that if anything ever went awry through a rigger's fault or someone else's, the rigger who used rated hardware will have a more robust legal defense than the rigger who did it with knots.


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## BillConnerFASTC

I have difficulty reconciling the logic that says even though there is a ANSI standard that says don't use grade 30 chain for overhead lifting that it's OK to do so, and there isn't a standard prohibiting knots in wire ropes in overhead lifting but that isn't OK. I'm not saying I disagree or anyone is wrong, just looking for consistency.


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## MikeJ

BillConnerASTC said:


> What method or technique for terminating wire rope mentioned here or anywhere couldn't be done incorrectly?


My point was to use backwards logic that is so popularly applied on this forum. You are right about the inconsistency of standards and generally accepted practices, or lack there of.


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## MikeJ

MNicolai said:


> You know, I actually reread that post this morning and thought that same thing.
> 
> More on topic, I don't consider the circus hitch a knot to be used for lifting. When I use it, it's strictly for guylines for positioning things which are being lifted by other means. Just because you *can* do something without hardware in the name of efficiency doesn't mean you *should*.
> 
> I'd venture a guess that if anything ever went awry through a rigger's fault or someone else's, the rigger who used rated hardware will have a more robust legal defense than the rigger who did it with knots.



So your logic is, because you are unfamiliar with something, it is automatically wrong?


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## MNicolai

A jury of my peers doesn't mean it's a jury of competent, objective riggers.


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## Jay Ashworth

MNicolai said:


> You know, I actually reread that post this morning and thought that same thing.
> 
> More on topic, I don't consider the circus hitch a knot to be used for lifting. When I use it, it's strictly for guylines for positioning things which are being lifted by other means. Just because you *can* do something without hardware in the name of efficiency doesn't mean you *should*.
> 
> I'd venture a guess that if anything ever went awry through a rigger's fault or someone else's, the rigger who used rated hardware will have a more robust legal defense than the rigger who did it with knots.



Perhaps.

The usual legal standard (I think; IANAL) is "generally accepted industry practice"; if something is one, and you can demonstrate that in court, then it *usually* isn't especially strong prosecutorial evidence, if it is at all (you can never predict what, on any given day, a jury is gonna choose to care about).


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## BillConnerFASTC

Jay Ashworth said:


> Perhaps.
> 
> The usual legal standard (I think; IANAL) is "generally accepted industry practice"; if something is one, and you can demonstrate that in court, then it *usually* isn't especially strong prosecutorial evidence, if it is at all (you can never predict what, on any given day, a jury is gonna choose to care about).



It is true that when there is not statutory law, it is whomever has the better lawyers that prevail, and it may go differently every time.


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