# 575W & 750W Source 4



## malex (Oct 16, 2008)

Can I do this? Are the 575 source 4 fixtures strictly rated for those lamps or are they interchangeable? I've been in the lighting biz for a few years now, but have never found myself in the position of mixing wattages and/or fixtures. Any experiential information will be greatly appreciated.


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## gafftaper (Oct 16, 2008)

*Re: 750W lamp in a 575W Source 4?*

You should not use a 750W in the 575W only versions. I believe that if you have the 575W bodies the lamp caps actually will not accept a 750W lamp. The HPL750 Watt lamps have a small pin to prevent you from plugging them into an improperly rated base. Someone from ETC will probably stop in here tomorrow and give you a definitive answer.


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## Sony (Oct 16, 2008)

*Re: 750W lamp in a 575W Source 4?*


gafftaper said:


> You should not use a 750W in the 575W only versions. I believe that if you have the 575W bodies the lamp caps actually will not accept a 750W lamp. The HPL750 Watt lamps have a small pin to prevent you from plugging them into an improperly rated base. Someone from ETC will probably stop in here tomorrow and give you a definitive answer.



750W Lamps have a 3rd pin that prevents them from being placed in a fixture that is not rated for 750W. I have 6 Fixtures at my college right now using 750W lamps just because the extra lumens make for a very strong and powerful special. Great for creating a strong isolation on stage. Only Source 4 Revolution, Par's, ParNEL's, Zoom's and Fixed Focus fixtures can accept 750W Lamps. Source 4 Jr's and Jr Zoom's only accept the 575W lamps


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## TimMiller (Oct 16, 2008)

*Re: 750W lamp in a 575W Source 4?*

Our local lighting dealer told us that there is no problem with installing a 750 into a S4 jr. You have to remove the screw to install it, but i am also curious what ETC would say about it. I know ETC will void your warranty. Also there is no where that i have seen, where they specifically that installing a 750 will create a fire hazard. The tail caps are the same, the reflectors are made the same minus the size. But if you have a s4 that has a 575 in it, and there are no screws to prevent you from installing a 750 into the lamp housing than i would say go for it.


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## SteveB (Oct 16, 2008)

*Re: 750W lamp in a 575W Source 4?*


TimMiller said:


> Our local lighting dealer told us that there is no problem with installing a 750 into a S4 jr.



Find another dealer. Anyone recommending this, which is something very, very basic and is information readily available on the ETC website, can not be trusted to handle the more complicated stuff - like basic electrical safety. 

And, NO, an S4 Jr. cannot handle a 750w lamp.

SB


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## zac850 (Oct 16, 2008)

*Re: 750W lamp in a 575W Source 4?*


SteveB said:


> And, NO, an S4 Jr. cannot handle a 750w lamp.



Plus, if you really need the extra punch from a 750w lamp, you probably shouldn't be using a jr.


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## icewolf08 (Oct 16, 2008)

*Re: 750W lamp in a 575W Source 4?*

If you want to use a 750W lamp in an older (575W) source four, you can, but you have to update the fixture. At a minimum you need to buy a new lamp base (TP-22H) that has tails rated for the higher amperage. At best, you should order the S4 retrofit kit, that comes with a few new parts for the lamp cap including the lamp retaining clip. Once you upgrade the fixture you will have to drill out a small hole to accommodate the third pin on the lamp.

As for putting 750W lamps in a S4 Jr. I don't know anything about that, and wouldn't try it unless someone from ETC told me directly that it was OK.


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## Grog12 (Oct 16, 2008)

*Re: 750W lamp in a 575W Source 4?*

The following is by no means a suggestion or a proper way to do anything, it is merely the 3rd person retelling of certain comprimises made by other people. It is most certainly not the right way to do this.

You do not need to modify the cap to use a 750w lamp in the old style 575 caps. You merely need to remove the 3rd pin, something that you occasionally have to do with 750w caps depending on how well the lamps were manufactured.

Also, while the old S4's are rated for 575w, it is has been told to me that the only true difference is the fact that there's a hole for 3rd pin.


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## philhaney (Oct 16, 2008)

*Re: 750W lamp in a 575W Source 4?*


Sony said:


> 750W Lamps have a 3rd pin that prevents them from being placed in a fixture that is not rated for 750W.




SteveB said:


> Find another dealer. Anyone recommending this, which is something very, very basic and is information readily available on the ETC website, can not be trusted to handle the more complicated stuff - like basic electrical safety.



I'm with SteveB on this one. That third pin is there for a reason; To keep you from installing a lamp in an instrument that is not rated for it. Sure, you can nip the pin or drill that hole. It may work. It may not.

Just ask yourself this question: "*Is someone's life worth cutting this corner?*"


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## TimMiller (Oct 16, 2008)

*Re: 750W lamp in a 575W Source 4?*

The are one of ETC's biggest dealers......... Wonder what steve terry has to say.........


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## SteveB (Oct 17, 2008)

*Re: 750W lamp in a 575W Source 4?*


TimMiller said:


> The are one of ETC's biggest dealers......... Wonder what steve terry has to say.........



ST is probably like me, in that he remembers well the practice of lamping Altman 360Q 6x12's thru 6x22's with FEL's at 1kw. Common Broadway practice for decades. 

Nothing really "bad" came of it, other then fried TP22 sockets, short lamp life, fried shutters, etc... Everybody "knew" not to do this on a 6x9 or 4.5", but 6x12's and up were typical.

Thus it's probably not going to actually kill anyone to lamp an S4 Jr at 750, if you by-passed the 3rd pin issue. 

But why ?. I suspect the Jr. is going to like a 750 a lot less then a 6x12 Altman liked a 1000w lamp. Smaller fixture, less convection cooling due to size, and it's not cheap to replace all the burned out parts, parts and labor, which is why I jumped on Tim (sorry 'bout that) a bit when he mentioned a shop doing it. 

One would wonder if they sell these units as used ?, and if they are OK with the long term repair issues. 

Steve B.


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## derekleffew (Oct 17, 2008)

*Re: 750W lamp in a 575W Source 4?*

I suspect he'd say "throw away those ancient, pre-1997 Source Fours and buy new ones." Source Fours not labeled as 750 are NOT Listed for 750W. Modifying the lamp or the socket shall void the Listing.

http://www.etcconnect.com/docs/docs_downloads/miscdocs/Source_Four_Heat_Info_Update_11-2007.pdf discusses some of the heat issues.

As posted by corey, of ETC Tech Services, Germany, here:


> The 750W lamps have a pin pressed or molded into the lamp base that needs to go through a hole in the light baffle. The purpose of the pin is to prevent placing the 750W bulb into a Jr fixture. *The S4 fixture itself requires no other changes as the wiring and sockets of these older fixtures are rated for the higher wattage.* If you are going to use the fixture on a continuous base like 10 hours a day in a museum for instance the paint could become an issue and fall off after 600-800 hours of continuous use. We have since improved the paint on fixtures to accommodate the higher temps from the 750W lamp. If you are using the fixture in a theatrical application the paint should not be an issue. Either way you would have to drill a hole in the light baffle or remove the pin from the lamp base. We also sell a retrofit light baffle kit to accommodate 750W lamps for old fixtures 7060A1033-0.


 *Emphasis* mine.


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## DCATTechie (Oct 29, 2008)

*Easy Question*

This is a really silly question that I probably know the answer to but I'm still going to ask it because I have been known to be wrong at times (very rarely)

On my 26deg. S4's Lamp Housing the number 750 appears. That means that it is a 750w fixture and can use 750w lamps correct?

P.S. is ETC's website not working for anyone else? There are no links to the consoles and many of the links for the fixtures are gone.


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## rochem (Oct 29, 2008)

*Re: Easy Question*

Yep, that's what the 750 means. Funny that this came up today, as I was in the theatre earlier today with some new lighting students and had to explain that every instrument did not have a 75 degree spread. It's actually on the housing of all S4s I believe (except for the Jrs obviously).

As for the ETC website, this happened to me a few weeks ago. At the top of the page, make sure that "Entertainment" is selected, not "Architectural". I got pretty nervous when I thought that they no longer supported any of their products .


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## DaveySimps (Oct 29, 2008)

*Re: Easy Question*

You are correct. That means that lamp base and fixture can use up to a 750watt HPL lamp. Not all Source IV were made that way form the beginning. I just tried the ETC site, and it worked for me.

~Dave


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## GreyWyvern (Oct 29, 2008)

*Re: Easy Question*

There are some bases that are not marked that way but will still take a 750w lamp. All you have to do is remove the screw on the inside of the base so that the third "pin" on the lamp will fit into the base.


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## CavezziMagnum (Oct 29, 2008)

*Re: Easy Question*

Is that safe to do that Grey Wyvern? 
I would need to go look at one, but in general logic, removing a screw on something like an end cap for a Source 4, is probably not a good idea.


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## GreyWyvern (Oct 29, 2008)

*Re: Easy Question*


CavezziMagnum said:


> Is that safe to do that .....



I'm not sure honestly. I was more or less just pointing that out. But now that you mention it....

Does anyone know if it is safe? Is there really any difference in the bases that are and are not labeled 750w?


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## derekleffew (Oct 29, 2008)

*Re: Easy Question*

There's no problem with removing the screw to allow the use of the HPL750W in a fixture not designated "750". See this and prior posts in the same thread.

edit: merging these posts into that thread.


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## DCATTechie (Oct 29, 2008)

*Re: Easy Question*

How do I know if I should use a 115 or 120 volt lamp?


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## icewolf08 (Oct 29, 2008)

*Re: Easy Question*


derekleffew said:


> There's no problem with removing the screw to allow the use of the HPL750W in a fixture not designated "750". See this and prior posts in the same thread.
> 
> edit: merging these posts into that thread.



Interesting to note, the screw in the lamp cap is supposed to cover the hole for the pin in dimmer double lamps (77v HPL). That pin should be on the opposite side of the lamp compared to the HPL750 so that you can't put a DD lamp in a fixture that is not being used for DD.


DCATTechie said:


> How do I know if I should use a 115 or 120 volt lamp?



Meter the power coming out of your circuits when the dimmer is at full.


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## jmac (Oct 31, 2009)

What is the difference between the two (besides the nameplate sticker)? Is it just the cap and lamp socket, or are the housing and lens tube also different? I have some lens tubes that say "Rev. G", and some that are blank. Are there big differences between generations of lens tubes? Are these ok with 750's? Thanks.


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## icewolf08 (Oct 31, 2009)

The guts of the fixture are the same. The early 575W fixtures cannot natively accept a 750W lamp. However, you can get the retrofit kits and install them (along with a new lamp base) and then there is no reason that you can't use 750W lamps in them. The Rev.G lenses i believe are the newest revision, but there is no reason that you can't use an older lens in a newer fixture and vise-versa.


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## Nate1714 (Nov 2, 2009)

icewolf08 said:


> The guts of the fixture are the same. The early 575W fixtures cannot natively accept a 750W lamp. However, you can get the retrofit kits and install them (along with a new lamp base) and then there is no reason that you can't use 750W lamps in them. The Rev.G lenses i believe are the newest revision, but there is no reason that you can't use an older lens in a newer fixture and vise-versa.



Icewolf is correct.


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## jmabray (Nov 2, 2009)

Usually the difference between the rev's is some small manufacturing change. nothing that would affect fixture performance, just something that might make it easier to manufacture. 

I believe that the main differences between the original 575 watt and newer 750 watt fixtures are a) the ability to actually accept the 750 watt lamp (with the third pin) and b) the rating of the wire running from the cap to the connector.


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## ship (Nov 2, 2009)

When the origional 575w S-4 Leko came out it had some alignment keyways sticking up which needed to be ground away to accept the cap of the 750w cap. 

A week ago I was working on some City Theatrical S-4 follow spot fixtures that never got upgraded and made the mistake (wifie yelled about in now being useless as a pineapple now needing to replace) taking away both the four keyways and the coaxial alignment slots. Give me a break... been like ten years since the last time I did the upgrade and I was only helping more efficiently remove what one of her kids was in my area attempting to remove - already cut half way thru the thing in her not telling him sufficient that he would understand what to remove of them keyways...


Remove in grinding down the four little keyways at four out of six points on a clock and leave alone the 3:00 and 9:00 wider ones. 

Beyond that the only major difference between a 575w and 750w fixture beyond the holes for the 750w lamp is in the lamp cap to the fixture. The 575w fixture will be wired with 18ga. and the 750w fixture is wired with 16ga wire. At no point unless the wire feeding the fixture is changed should you remove that pin on the lamp and even than that's bad practice to remove the little roll pin on the lamp as you never know after that what fixture such a lamp will show up in.

Can modify the body of the fixture but often cheaper and easier to replace the entire cap assembly.


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## jmac (Nov 2, 2009)

Thanks all, for confirming the differences.


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## Daveslights (Jun 21, 2011)

*source 4 575 vs 750*

Hey All,
I have some Source Four lekos that are about 13 years old. they say "575w maximum" on the sticker on the yoke. I want to use 750w lamps in them, is there anyway to make this happen? can I buy a new lamp socket assembly, and do they make different ones?

thanks


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## shiben (Jun 21, 2011)

*Re: source 4 575 vs 750*


Daveslights said:


> Hey All,
> I have some Source Four lekos that are about 13 years old. they say "575w maximum" on the sticker on the yoke. I want to use 750w lamps in them, is there anyway to make this happen? can I buy a new lamp socket assembly, and do they make different ones?
> 
> thanks


 
I believe ETC makes a retrofit system.


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## Daveslights (Jun 21, 2011)

*Re: source 4 575 vs 750*

I also have some new 750W S4 lekos, the socket assembly looks the same and I think they will swap easily, but I need to convert a few of the older ones.

My issue is that I bought some 750w lamps (HPL750-C) and they don't even fit into the old socket, there is an extra metal pin. the older lekos do not have a place for this pin, but the newer 750w fixtures do. 

Is there a 750w lamp that does not have this extra pin? and is the wiring in the socket assembly really not able to handle the additional 250w? they are not S4 jr, just older full sized S4 lekos


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## chausman (Jun 21, 2011)

Daveslights said:


> Is there a 750w lamp that does not have this extra pin? and is the wiring in the socket assembly really not able to handle the additional 250w? they are not S4 jr, just older full sized S4 lekos


 
I thought the purpose of the extra pin was to simply keep someone from putting a lamp that would draw to much power, or get to hot, from being in an instrument that could not handle the higher draw or higher temp. [-]But, I could be completely off![/-]


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

EDIT:

starksk said:


> The 750W HPL lamp will always have the extra pin. As you have found out, this is to prevent them from being accidentally inserted into a lamp burner assembly that is not rated for their use


 
Hey, I was right!


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## starksk (Jun 21, 2011)

*Re: source 4 575 vs 750*

Hi Daveslights,

The 750W HPL lamp will always have the extra pin. As you have found out, this is to prevent them from being accidentally inserted into a lamp burner assembly that is not rated for their use.

The fix for this issue is to replace the lamp burner assembly with one that is rated for 750W. That part number is 7060A2008 (for black) and is available from any ETC Dealer.


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## Daveslights (Jun 21, 2011)

*Re: source 4 575 vs 750*

right, that's my assumption. but that's only the issue with the lamp socket assembly, right? meaning if i use the body of the older ones and order a new $20 lamp socket assembly rated for 750w there's problem, correct?

and is there a difference between an HPL750 and an HPL750-C?


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## Daveslights (Jun 21, 2011)

*Re: source 4 575 vs 750*

Starksk,
thanks for confirming this. I had called my dealer and they gave me a part number of "7060B7019". In looking at the exploded diagram, this might just be the ceramic by it self.





starksk said:


> Hi Daveslights,
> 
> The 750W HPL lamp will always have the extra pin. As you have found out, this is to prevent them from being accidentally inserted into a lamp burner assembly that is not rated for their use.
> 
> The fix for this issue is to replace the lamp burner assembly with one that is rated for 750W. That part number is 7060A2008 (for black) and is available from any ETC Dealer.


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## starksk (Jun 21, 2011)

*Re: source 4 575 vs 750*


Daveslights said:


> Starksk, thanks for confirming this. I had called my dealer and they gave me a part number of "7060B7019". In looking at the exploded diagram, this might just be the ceramic by it self.


That is correct. 7060B7019 is just the ceramic socket with leads. 


Daveslights said:


> right, that's my assumption. but that's only the issue with the lamp socket assembly, right? meaning if i use the body of the older ones and order a new $20 lamp socket assembly rated for 750w there's problem, correct?...


You will need to order the full assembly 7060A2008 because the metal changed to have a hole to fit the 750W lamp. You cannot simply change the socket assembly.


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## derekleffew (Jun 21, 2011)

*Re: source 4 575 vs 750*

Not that I'd ever recommend this of course, all it would unleash all the demons of h3ll, but I've heard tell an urban myth of some users simply removing the non-conductive pin on the HPL750 lamp. It almost seems as though some lamp manufacturer planned this, as the extra pin is so easily removable.


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## gafftapegreenia (Jun 21, 2011)

*Re: source 4 575 vs 750*


derekleffew said:


> Not that I'd ever recommend this of course, all it would unleash all the demons of h3ll, but I've heard tell an urban myth of some users simply removing the non-conductive pin on the HPL750 lamp. It almost seems as though some lamp manufacturer planned this, as the extra pin is so easily removable.


 

I've heard it has the same effect as ripping the tag off a mattress.


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## icewolf08 (Jun 21, 2011)

*Re: source 4 575 vs 750*

Or you could buy new TP-22H lamp sockets and the ETC Source Four retrofit kits for the lamp caps. This will ensure you have proper wiring and parts in the fixture for the HPL750. 

Of course you could also carefully drill out a hole in the lamp burner assembly to accommodate the extra pin so that you don't have to pull out the pins every time you change lamps


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## Edrick (Jun 22, 2011)

Can you do this with new Source4 Jrs?


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## shiben (Jun 22, 2011)

*Re: source 4 575 vs 750*


icewolf08 said:


> Or you could buy new TP-22H lamp sockets and the ETC Source Four retrofit kits for the lamp caps. This will ensure you have proper wiring and parts in the fixture for the HPL750.
> 
> Of course you could also carefully drill out a hole in the lamp burner assembly to accommodate the extra pin so that you don't have to pull out the pins every time you change lamps


 
I seem to remember some of ours having screws there, just pull that out? It should be noted (and probably will be tomorrow) that this probably voids A your warentee and B the UL rating, making your fixture potentially illegal.


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## icewolf08 (Jun 22, 2011)

*Re: source 4 575 vs 750*


shiben said:


> I seem to remember some of ours having screws there, just pull that out? It should be noted (and probably will be tomorrow) that this probably voids A your warentee and B the UL rating, making your fixture potentially illegal.


 
Usually the screw that is in the burner assembly covers the hole for the extra pin on a 77V HPL lamp used for dimmer doubling. This existed on both older, non-750 fixtures and newer fixtures. The third pin on a 77V lamp is on the opposite side of the lamp than the pin on the HPL750, so removing the screw probably won't do you much good.

If you upgrade your fixture with the retrofit kit and a new burn base, you shouldn't void anything on the fixture. If you are upgrading older fixtures to accept an HPL750, chances are it is out of any warranty it had.

Now, if you are drilling holes in the burner assembly, you might be negating the UL listing of the fixture. Whether this is a good idea or not is up to you, however I know plenty of end users who have made this simple modification. As the third pin on the HPL750 is purely there for alignment and designation, it carries no electrical current. Modifying the burner assembly, if done carefully and precisely, won't alter the electrical properties of the fixture, and should not render the fixture dangerous. If one were going to make this modification, one would probably want to dissemble the burner assembly before drilling.


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## gafftapegreenia (Jun 22, 2011)

*Re: source 4 575 vs 750*


Edrick said:


> Can you do this with new Source4 Jrs?


 
No, they are still 575 only. I believe it's because they are too small to dissipate the heat of a 750 HPL.


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## derekleffew (Jun 22, 2011)

*Re: source 4 575 vs 750*


Edrick said:


> Can you do this with new Source4 Jrs?


One _can_ (and one un-named member here has) put a 1000W FEL in an Altman 3.5Q, but that doesn't mean one _should_. Due to the expensive glass reflector, I wouldn't put a 750W in an S4-jr or MCM Par, in or out of warranty. Voiding the UL Listing should be prohibition reason enough.


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## avery (Mar 16, 2012)

*small metal piece on Source Four lamp*

Hey everyone,

Just ran into an issue and wanted to get some insight on it.

Over the winter another staff member ordered some 750w lamps for our ETC source fours. Today I went to replace some lamps in older fixtures and noticed there is a tiny little metal pipe at the base of the lamp close to the prongs. This prevents the lamp from being plugged into the fixture.

Does this mean it's the incorrect lamp for this fixture? Everything else about the lamp fits the base perfectly except this little metal piece. My fixtures don't have a little hole in them for the piece to go down into and from how tight they seem to be attached to the bulb I don't think this is supposed to come off.

I don't deal with specials all the time, but this is a first for me.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks


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## sk8rsdad (Mar 16, 2012)

*Re: small metal piece on Source Four lamp*

The pin exists to prevent inserting the lamp into a base that is not designed for it. There are 2 pins for the HPL, one intended to prevent a 750W lamp from being inserted into a base rated for 575W, and the other reduces the risk of a 77V lamp being installed in a 120V socket.


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## derekleffew (Mar 16, 2012)

*Re: small metal piece on Source Four lamp*


sk8rsdad said:


> ... into a base rated for 575W...


Socket. The base is part of the lamp. Dammit.

avery, see these threads:
http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/lighting-electrics/16148-575w-750w-source-4-a.html
http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/lighting-electrics/9435-750w-lamp-575w-source-4-a.html
http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/lighting-electrics/24912-source-4-575-vs-750-a.html
http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/lighting-electrics/8894-source-4-lamp-caps.html
and
Differences between a S4-750 and S4-575 - Electronic Theatre Controls


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## marmer (Mar 16, 2012)

*Re: small metal piece on Source Four lamp*

Yes. We have lots of these. The 750W base will be labeled "750" and will have an extra opening for that pin.


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## gafftapegreenia (Mar 16, 2012)

*Re: small metal piece on Source Four lamp*

I seem to recall an easy way to distinguish a 575 lamp cap from a 750 is that the 750's have the plastic handle. 

How often do I run into someone that thinks a 750 rated Source 4 is lamped at 750 because it has a '750' sticker on it? All the freakin time.


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## DuckJordan (Mar 16, 2012)

That's not a sure fire I have a few 575s that have the plastic handles.

Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk


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## avery (Mar 16, 2012)

*Re: small metal piece on Source Four lamp*

Thanks everyone. I guess I'm just used to the 575w we mostly use so I haven't seen the 750w.

Thanks again.


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## gafftapegreenia (Mar 16, 2012)

*Re: small metal piece on Source Four lamp*


DuckJordan said:


> That's not a sure fire I have a few 575s that have the plastic handles.
> 
> Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk



That's what I figured. It was more of an "in general" statement.


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## church (Mar 20, 2012)

*Re: small metal piece on Source Four lamp*


gafftapegreenia said:


> I seem to recall an easy way to distinguish a 575 lamp cap from a 750 is that the 750's have the plastic handle.
> 
> How often do I run into someone that thinks a 750 rated Source 4 is lamped at 750 because it has a '750' sticker on it? All the freakin time.



I have some 750's which do not have the plastic handle - a customer broke some handles and frankly I did not feel the need to buy replacement handles.

The difference between the 750W and the 575W burners apart from the hole in the burner assembly is the 750W socket uses thicker wire.


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## Synchronize (Mar 21, 2012)

*Re: small metal piece on Source Four lamp*

I was under the impression that ETC's original intention was to have two different caps--one with smaller gauge wires to only accommodate 575w--but that the idea was scrapped an that all caps (or perhaps scrapped after x amount of years, so all recent caps) have 12 AWG wire, thus being safe for a 750w lamp. I know I have a few caps that do not have the hole for the pin that do have 12 AWG wire, in which case I take a pair of channel locks and break the little sucker off.

Perhaps I'm wrong about all (or all recent) caps having 12 AWG wire?


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## bdkdesigns (Mar 21, 2012)

*Re: small metal piece on Source Four lamp*

Are these full sized or Jr. fixtures? Before even thinking of breaking the pin, make sure the fixture itself is even rated for 750w. Personally, I wouldn't break that pin off either way. Your just asking for trouble down the road when someone else puts it into the wrong fixture. I always took the extra time to base swap when I needed a 750 in an instrument that could handle it but just had an older base on it.


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## icewolf08 (Mar 21, 2012)

*Re: small metal piece on Source Four lamp*


Synchronize said:


> I was under the impression that ETC's original intention was to have two different caps--one with smaller gauge wires to only accommodate 575w--but that the idea was scrapped an that all caps (or perhaps scrapped after x amount of years, so all recent caps) have 12 AWG wire, thus being safe for a 750w lamp. I know I have a few caps that do not have the hole for the pin that do have 12 AWG wire, in which case I take a pair of channel locks and break the little sucker off.
> 
> Perhaps I'm wrong about all (or all recent) caps having 12 AWG wire?




bdkdesigns said:


> Are these full sized or Jr. fixtures? Before even thinking of breaking the pin, make sure the fixture itself is even rated for 750w. Personally, I wouldn't break that pin off either way. Your just asking for trouble down the road when someone else puts it into the wrong fixture. I always took the extra time to base swap when I needed a 750 in an instrument that could handle it but just had an older base on it.



You should definitely make sure that your fixture is rtated for 750 watts if you want to use the 750 lamp. However, AFAIK, all full size source four fixtures can use the 750 lamp as long as you update the wiring in the lamp cap. If you have really old source fours you can even get the lamp cap retrofit kit that has the retaining clip to hold the lamp in place and has the hols for the 750W and 77v lamps pre drilled. If you don't need the retrofit kit, once you update the wiring you can just drall a hole to fit the third pin on the 750W lamp. This should be much safer and easier than breaking the pins.


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## bdkdesigns (Mar 21, 2012)

*Re: small metal piece on Source Four lamp*

If I remember correctly, just the junior line and the Par MCM are only rated to 575w. I hated needing the pin on the Junior because I did a lot of dimmer doubling in a space with Juniors. I had to do a lot of base swapping so I could those darn 550w/77v lamps in there.


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## gafftapegreenia (Mar 21, 2012)

*Re: small metal piece on Source Four lamp*

So I went back reading through the several old threads upon this topic, here's what I've gathered.

-Some 750 caps don't fit on 575 bodies because the older bodies had cap alignment nibs. (Unless you want to grind off the nibs)

-The 575's were wired with 18 AWG, 750's are wired with 16 AWG. 

-Newer caps have an internal light baffle. 

-A 575 body may experience paint loss if a 750 is used in it.

I found nothing to suggest a 575 dichroic reflector can't handle a 750.

When it comes to breaking off the pin or drilling a hole for it, now, I"m not going to stop you, just be aware that such independent modification of equipment changes the approved and tested design of a fixture or lamp. 

And yes, the Juniors and MCM PARs are 575 ONLY!


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## ptero (Mar 21, 2012)

*Re: small metal piece on Source Four lamp*

You cannot count on all full sized Source Fours being 750 capable. fwiw, we have both 26* and 36* Source Fours. Because the 26's are older, they have the older style cap (w/o handles, just rounded) and are rated 575 only. When we started buying 36's, the newer cap design was in place and they are all tagged as 750 capable. So we have plenty of 26's that are 575 only. Point is, if a Source Four is old enough it may not be wired for 750. 

In our case all 26's have no handle, and all 36's have the handle. The caps/burners are not interchangeable and all are lamped at 575. We are careful to avoid swapping lenses and losing the handle/no handle distinction. It's easier on the interns that way!


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## Les (Mar 21, 2012)

*Re: small metal piece on Source Four lamp*


gafftapegreenia said:


> Some 750 caps don't fit on 575 bodies because the older bodies had cap alignment knobs.



On the topic of keyed lamp caps, I believe ETC has advised that the end-user can grind away the extra stud so that the new and old caps are interchangeable between fixture bodies. Don't get this confused with pins on the lamp base though -- I think their directions were for the cap only.


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## gafftapegreenia (Mar 21, 2012)

*Re: small metal piece on Source Four lamp*


Les said:


> On the topic of keyed lamp caps, I believe ETC has advised that the end-user can grind away the extra stud so that the new and old caps are interchangeable between fixture bodies. Don't get this confused with pins on the lamp base though -- I think their directions were for the cap only.



Yes I know that.


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## Les (Mar 21, 2012)

*Re: small metal piece on Source Four lamp*


gafftapegreenia said:


> Yes I know that.



That wasn't for you. I quoted you because you happened to bring it up.


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## icewolf08 (Mar 21, 2012)

*Re: small metal piece on Source Four lamp*


ptero said:


> You cannot count on all full sized Source Fours being 750 capable. fwiw, we have both 26* and 36* Source Fours. Because the 26's are older, they have the older style cap (w/o handles, just rounded) and are rated 575 only. When we started buying 36's, the newer cap design was in place and they are all tagged as 750 capable. So we have plenty of 26's that are 575 only. Point is, if a Source Four is old enough it may not be wired for 750.



In factory new condition, this may be true, however, as I mentioned, it is possible to update the wiring in your fixtures. In fact, odds are that if you have ever had to replace the lamp sockets in your fixtures then you already have. 

As far as the burn bases not fitting on fixtures, as has been mentioned, the ETC factory has said that it is fine to remove the nubs on the fixture body that prevent the newer caps from fitting. This difference came from a change in the casting machinery. It has nothing to do with the fixtures being stamped 750 or not.

Aside from possible flaky paint, there should be no reason that an older source four can't take a 750 lamp as long as you have updated the wiring.


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## len (Jul 15, 2012)

*S4 Ellipsoidals*

Are all ETC S4 Ellipsoidal barrels, lenses, etc., rated for 750 watt lamps and only the end cap is rated 750 or 575? If the barrels, etc., are limited, how can you tell BESIDES the label on the outside, which are missing on many of the fixtures I own?


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## Les (Jul 15, 2012)

*Re: S4 Ellipsoidals*

The lamp cap is the only limiting factor, so you won't need to worry about the bodies, lenses, reflectors, etc.


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## len (Jul 15, 2012)

*Re: S4 Ellipsoidals*

Thanks. I was asking because I probably need to replace a couple caps. Might as well get 750 for them.


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## DELO72 (Jul 18, 2012)

*Re: source 4 575 vs 750*


Daveslights said:


> I also have some new 750W S4 lekos, the socket assembly looks the same and I think they will swap easily, but I need to convert a few of the older ones.
> 
> My issue is that I bought some 750w lamps (HPL750-C) and they don't even fit into the old socket, there is an extra metal pin. the older lekos do not have a place for this pin, but the newer 750w fixtures do.
> 
> Is there a 750w lamp that does not have this extra pin? and is the wiring in the socket assembly really not able to handle the additional 250w? they are not S4 jr, just older full sized S4 lekos



If the cap does not have the hole, then it is NOT a 750W rated cap. All 750W lamps have that pin for a reason-- it's so you don't try and insert the lamp into a base cap that is only rated for 575W and start a fire. Buy the upgraded/newer 750W caps and you'll be fine. As already noted, the older sockets had 18AWG wire and you want to switch to the improved, newer sockets with the 16AWG wire for higher wattages.


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## DavidNorth (Jul 19, 2012)

*Re: source 4 575 vs 750*


DELO72 said:


> As already noted, the older sockets had 18AWG wire and you want to switch to the improved, newer sockets with the 16AWG wire for higher wattages.



Well, our documentation from 1992 says the original caps had 16AWG wire, but as we went through a number of revisions and a couple of manufacturers of sockets over the years, it is possible that the early ones from Sylvania were indeed 18AWG.

Here's what I consider some smart and safe advice......if you have a lamp cap rated at 575W and want to run a 750W lamp in it, get the correct parts to support the pins and get new sockets/wires. What you have is very old and likely could use replacement anyway and on top of that, the new sockets we have from Sylvania are a more robust design. The kit has the lamp retaining bail in it which can also be an improvement for you.

S4Jr and MCM PARs are not rated for 750W lamp use, as mentioned above, due to cooling limitations. Please do not do this.

All S4s can support 750W lamps with the correct parts as above. There are no changes required to lenses, reflectors, bushings, etc.

One more note, as Ship pointed out, very early S4 fixtures do not support the newer lamp cap casting without modification. This is probably the best reason not to get new lamp caps and instead rework what you have.

All make sense?

David


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## allank44 (Nov 20, 2012)

*source 4 question from a total newbie...*

hi all..first post here...SO...

We've started to use Source 4s and noted a difference between the 2 we have:

One has 4 holes and one has only 2 holes (although there is a phillips screw in place that if removed would open up another hole, although on the wrong side).

We have 2 types of spare bulbs...750 watts with 3 pins and 575 watts with 2 pins.

SO...I'm assuming that the 2 hole Source 4 can only accept 2 pin 575w HPL bulbs and the other 3 hole Source 4 can accept 2 or 3 pin fixtures so either 575w or 3 pin 750w HPL bulbs.

Just needing to confirm that the 3 pin Source 4 is the one rated to 750w and the older?? 2 pin Source 4 is therefore rated to only 575w???

I had thought all Source 4s could handle 750w bulbs??

Also am now thinking the 3 pin 750w HPL bulbs are configured with the idea that they will only fit in fixtures that have 3 (or 4 holes)..a sort of safety measure??


TIA to all who respond

Allan


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## Wood4321 (Nov 20, 2012)

*Re: source 4 question from a total newbie...*

Correct,
Older fixtures will not take the 750 watt lamp.
IIRC, the wire was not large enough to carry the increased demand of that lamp.

The screw you mentioned is removable to allow the insertion of a 77v 550 watt dimmer doubling lamp.

You should be able to upgrade that fixture to take a 750w if necessary. I believe it is a new lamp socket assembly, as well as the section of base that has the holes in it for the pins.


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## allank44 (Nov 20, 2012)

*Re: source 4 question from a total newbie...*

Joshua...thanks...thought so. We now have another 19 degree Source 4 coming that should be rated to 750w...at least now I'll know what to look for.

allan


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## DELO72 (Nov 20, 2012)

*Re: source 4 question from a total newbie...*


allank44 said:


> One has 4 holes and one has only 2 holes (although there is a phillips screw in place that if removed would open up another hole, although on the wrong side).
> 
> We have 2 types of spare bulbs...750 watts with 3 pins and 575 watts with 2 pins.
> 
> ...



EXACTLY. 2 holes in the base cap means 575W max. 4 holes means 750W max (as the third lamp pin can fit and allow it to be inserted- designed that way as a safety measure as you guessed!)


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## derekleffew (Nov 20, 2012)

*Re: source 4 question from a total newbie...*

(Several posts above have been moved here from another location. Pay attention to the Post Titles to see the distinctions.)

allank44 said:


> hi all..first post here...SO...


Since it's your first time, I'll be gentle. 


allank44 said:


> We have 2 types of spare bulbs...750 watts with 3 pins and 575 watts with 2 pins.
> 
> SO...I'm assuming that the 2 hole Source 4 can only accept 2 pin 575w HPL bulbs and the other 3 hole Source 4 can accept 2 or 3 pin fixtures so either 575w or 3 pin 750w HPL bulbs.
> 
> ...


Techies call them bulbs; technicians call them lamps.  
Furthermore, The lamp cap (burn base assembly) includes the socket; the base is part of the lamp.

-----

From its introduction in 1992 until 1998 the Source Four could only take a maximum 575W lamp. After 1998 the socket mounting plate ("light baffle") was altered (extra hole for the 750's locator pin) and plastic lamp cap "handles" were added with "750" decals. (For full-size/"Senior" ERS fixtures; the S4jr. is still limited to 575W.) Approx. at the same time, the wire "lamp retaining bail" was added to all ERS lamp caps. See also the thread http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/lighting-electrics/15347-source-four-revisions.html .


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## TimMiller (Nov 20, 2012)

*Re: source 4 question from a total newbie...*


derekleffew said:


> Techies call them bulbs; technicians call them lamps.



They are not called bulbs or lamps......... They are supposed to be called globes.

In a nut shell of this entire thread... If your full sized source 4 does not have the pin for the 750w lamp, buy a retrofit kit. Source 4 jr's can only take 575w lamps.


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## cmckeeman (Nov 20, 2012)

*Re: source 4 question from a total newbie...*


TimMiller said:


> They are not called bulbs or lamps......... They are supposed to be called globes.
> 
> In a nut shell of this entire thread... If your full sized source 4 does not have the pin for the 750w lamp, buy a retrofit kit. Source 4 jr's can only take 575w lamps.



i have never heard that... ever, if someone asked me to get them a globe i would come back with a model of the earth


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## Call911 (Nov 20, 2012)

TimMiller said:


> They are not called bulbs or lamps......... They are supposed to be called globes.
> 
> In a nut shell of this entire thread... If your full sized source 4 does not have the pin for the 750w lamp, buy a retrofit kit. Source 4 jr's can only take 575w lamps.



I have only ever heard them called globes overseas. In the US it's always lamps (or the less professional "bulbs"), and the main part is called a fixture (or the less professional "light").


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## derekleffew (Nov 21, 2012)

*Re: source 4 question from a total newbie...*


TimMiller said:


> They are not called bulbs or lamps......... They are supposed to be called globes. ...


_"Supposed to be"_?! According to whom? The box the thing comes in says:

"Halogen Display/Optic Lamp" - Osram
"Quarztline™ Halogen Lamp" - GE Lighting
"Stage Theatre Television Studio Lamp" - Sylvania
"Stage/Studio Lamp" - GE
"Halogen Lamp" - Ushio
"Stage and Studio Lamp" - Philips
"AV/Photo Lamp" - Eiko
"Tungsten Halogen Lamp" - Westinghouse


Lamp / bulb / globe / bottle / bubble --all used synonymously in our industry. Film/TV people may be more apt to call them globes, even though tungsten-halogen lamps haven't been globular in forever; in fact, never were. Totally tubular, _dude_.

-----

Call911 said:


> ... and the main part is called a fixture (or the less professional "light").


Fixture / instrument / unit / light / lamp / head / lantern / luminaire (my personal favorite).
Eskimos have fifteen words for snow.
.


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## StNic54 (Nov 21, 2012)

*Re: source 4 575 vs 750*

I'd compare putting an HPL750 in a JR Zoom to putting a Hemi in a Gremlin. Sure, it will work for a little while, but eventually the JR Zoom, like the Gremlin, will just fall apart because it wasn't designed for that. They will both burn up. Leave the screw in if its a jr, and don't pull the pin from a 750. JR's are good for smallish needs, and with a 375w lamp can really do wonders for small event lighting, but for anything with distance, or quality needs, use a normal Source 4 ERS.


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## tjrobb (Nov 21, 2012)

The terminology discussion reminds me of having to make signs for the facility, then needing to go back and make sure the "uninitiated" new what I was talking about...


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## SteveB (Nov 21, 2012)

*Re: source 4 575 vs 750*


StNic54 said:


> I'd compare putting an HPL750 in a JR Zoom to putting a Hemi in a Gremlin. Sure, it will work for a little while, but eventually the JR Zoom, like the Gremlin, will just fall apart because it wasn't designed for that. They will both burn up. Leave the screw in if its a jr, and don't pull the pin from a 750. JR's are good for smallish needs, and with a 375w lamp can really do wonders for small event lighting, but for anything with distance, or quality needs, use a normal Source 4 ERS.



Poor analogy as the Gremlin would fall apart of it's very own, hemi or not. So adding a hemi may or may not have been the reason for the failure rate. I had a '75 yellow Gremlin. My buddies called it the lead sled. Oh the stories and the places I got stuck....


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## TimMiller (Nov 21, 2012)

*Re: source 4 575 vs 750*

I have heard the term globe numerous tiles working around video lighting guys. Personally I call most everything a lamp, I will call a A19 or similar bulb (typical residential bulb) a bulb.


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## Esoteric (Nov 21, 2012)

*Re: source 4 question from a total newbie...*

I heard bulb and globe as the name for the glass part that surrounds the filament. Lamp refers to the whole unit (bulb, base, and filament).


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## gafftapegreenia (Jan 9, 2015)

Welll, got in an arguement on Facebook, and this came up:

I said this:
"Yes you could just buy new TP22H sockets and rewire the existing caps but you'd either have to drill a hole for the third pin or pull the third pin out of the base. But drilling a pin hole probably voids the UL listing of the assembly, and removing the third pin creates the possibility of a 750 watt lamp ending up in a 575 watt cap."

And got this in reply:
"Noah, that really is not safe. The 750w lamp heads have extra finns on them for dissipating heat. By putting a 750base in a 575 unit heat you risk a fire as they are not designed to handle the extra heat. This was the response give by an ETC installation startup rep, when the question was posed to him by a venue we were doing an upgrade in."

And here all this time I thought it was due to wire gauge or older TP22H sockets not being able to handle the higher heat of a 750.


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## techieman33 (Jan 9, 2015)

gafftapegreenia said:


> Welll, got in an arguement on Facebook, and this came up:
> 
> I said this:
> "Yes you could just buy new TP22H sockets and rewire the existing caps but you'd either have to drill a hole for the third pin or pull the third pin out of the base. But drilling a pin hole probably voids the UL listing of the assembly, and removing the third pin creates the possibility of a 750 watt lamp ending up in a 575 watt cap."
> ...



Then how does a s4 par handle the heat? The only difference on them is the socket, and a couple other little parts depending on when the cap was made. And it has far less in the way of heat dissipation built into it.


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## derekleffew (Jan 9, 2015)

gafftapegreenia said:


> Welll, got in an arguement on Facebook, and this came up: ...


One should know better than to attempt to talk tech on FB, or any other general purpose social media.


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## gafftapegreenia (Jan 9, 2015)

derekleffew said:


> One should know better than to attempt to talk tech on FB, or any other general purpose social media.



I know, I know.

But its so much more active than CB. And sometimes you get seasoned elders who aren't here on CB.


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## Les (Jan 9, 2015)

I don't believe the 750 series castings are any different than the 575's. I could be wrong, but I highly doubt it. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ship (Jan 10, 2015)

What I'm a season'd elder as with many of us... Can remember when the s-4 came out (got a letter about the S-4 during Golf War when it was presented at USITT, and limited to only ten we could get due to production line once back in college.) And years Later dealing with the lamp cap conversion problem at work doing the conversions. It was only wiring 18ga. that was the difference, and no other problems other than the pin which should not be removed but was often before the upgrade and later resale off of all that grade of light. Hole was easy enough.

fB, almost joined... got really far in doing so - someday perhaps. Constantly get emails telling me who is on that I can already directly contact by email. Must have trolled all my e-mail accounts. For me joining in would be more to catch up with old friends than for technical information. Though I got a lot of emails telling me of a lot of people in the industry that have joined who I respect a lot. Percentage of them that would know and answer your question properly though if not "friend" is as per your advice limited.


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## DuckJordan (Jan 10, 2015)

The issue isn't a fire risk, you do risk however burning your reflector (at least that's what I remember when I asked our install rep). Won't actually "burn" it but it can create dark spots/clouding on the reflector.


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## SteveB (Jan 10, 2015)

derekleffew said:


> One should know better than to attempt to talk tech on FB, or any other general purpose social media.



The FB Eos Programmers Group is about the fastest and best way to get answered about any question with programming issues on that family of consoles. A lot of very smart programmers with a lot of time on the desks hang out there. Better then the ETC forum in many ways as more people pay attention on FB, seemingly.


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## gafftapegreenia (Jan 10, 2015)

SteveB said:


> The FB Eos Programmers Group is about the fastest and best way to get answered about any question with programming issues on that family of consoles. A lot of very smart programmers with a lot of time on the desks hang out there. Better then the ETC forum in many ways as more people pay attention on FB, seemingly.



The Stagecraft and Entertainment Rigging Forum is another high quality group.


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## KBToys82 (Jan 12, 2015)

Since I've never been a part of the lamp buying/installing aspect of fixtures, I have a question.

We have many Source 4's in our auditorium on 2 tree stands, house right and house left up in our balcony. They alternate between 26º and 50º. Also 5 Source 4's (not sure what kind) above audience tucked away in a cove, though no catwalks.

We have 1 that is burnt out, and will be getting a new set of lamps as well as extra's since all in all, we have about 15 around the hall. All are rated for 750w, and use the HPL lamps. 

My question is this, looking at the spec sheet, it looks like I can either get the HPL 750/115 which is rated for 300 hours, and the HPL 750/115x which is rated for 1500 hours. Since both are the same price, what's the difference? Wouldn't you want to go with the lamp that's going to last you 5 times as long?


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## techieman33 (Jan 12, 2015)

KBToys82 said:


> Since I've never been a part of the lamp buying/installing aspect of fixtures, I have a question.
> 
> We have many Source 4's in our auditorium on 2 tree stands, house right and house left up in our balcony. They alternate between 26º and 50º. Also 5 Source 4's (not sure what kind) above audience tucked away in a cove, though no catwalks.
> 
> ...



It's a choice that depends on the venue and how you use it. Are the lights hard to access, do you struggle to get money for purchases of things like lamps? Do you find yourself never running your lights over 75% or 80%? If so then a longlife lamp might be for you. If you have easy access to change lamps, and find yourself running your lights at full, then the 300 hour lamp is probably what you want. You'll also want to make sure that the lamps are all the same. The last thing you want is some areas in one wash being noticeably brighter than others.


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## DELO72 (Jan 13, 2015)

KBToys82 said:


> Since I've never been a part of the lamp buying/installing aspect of fixtures, I have a question.
> 
> We have many Source 4's in our auditorium on 2 tree stands, house right and house left up in our balcony. They alternate between 26º and 50º. Also 5 Source 4's (not sure what kind) above audience tucked away in a cove, though no catwalks.
> 
> ...




The trade-off is the one that last 5x as long (115X) also is a lot dimmer, which is how it achieves the longer life. So if you don't mind a lower color temp and lower output, than maybe that's the best bet. What I personally prefer is keeping the short-life high output lamps as the lamp of choice, and simply profiling the dimmers down (at the rack or on the board) to Full @ 97% (or 98%, or 95%-- whatever floats your boat). Which will give you a longer life. The reason I promote this is you then have the ability to use them at full brightness, or at longer life. Your choice depending on the need of the show or facility. If you get the longer life lamp to start with, you can't over-power it to get the brighter output, (Unless you are like Spinal Tap and have dimmers that go to 11) so you have created an arbitrary limit for yourself. Always give yourself more options.


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