# ETC Eos Ti vs Cobalt 20 for Broadcast Using



## ledstixx (Mar 15, 2014)

Hi friends.

I am looking a new lighting console from ETC for our TV station. I am Avolites user and we are still using Avolites Titan system in the channel but there are some missing functions on the Avo consoles and I want to use more effective console. Avo is still working on Windows and actually I am not trusting to Windows based consoles. 

What I need on the new console?

1) Mac compatible
2) Advanced control over internet
3) Advanced control on LAN
4) No restart need for stable working
5) High quality touch screens
6) Fast fixture choosing
7) Easy edit (add, remove or edit fixtures from recorded memory or cue)
8) Motorized submasters
9) Included UPS
10) Advanced fixture database
11) Easy creating fixture personality file
12) Easy backup, and restore w/out any lost data or settings
13) RDM compatibility
14) Included web browser

If do you have any other advice please share with me. 


Thanks...


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## Lextech (Mar 15, 2014)

I have a TI in my main space, it's great. Let's see if I can answer some of these questions.

1. Well I can access the NET3 network with my mac and an IPad.
2 & 3. What exactly do you mean? The NET3 stuff is pretty good.
4. Had it since July, hasn't needed a restart except to reconfigure some presets to default personalities. 
5. Touchscreens work well, I guess, I drive with a mouse. My academic counterpart uses the touchscreens all the time.
6. If they are in your favorites file, quick. First time for a new fixture not so much.
7. Sure.
8. Nope
9. I don't know anyone who includes a UPS with a console. Just budget for it.
10. See #6, lots of fixtures.
11. Not bad, takes a couple of minutes.
12. Backup to USB stick. I theory, I forget most of the time, see #4. Very stable so far. Please note I did not jump on the last upgrade which did have a bug. We had to many shows, sometimes it pays to be busy. I will be upgrading after this semester.
13. I believe it does, have not used that function.
14. If I want to surf the web I use a computer. If I want to light show I use a console. And if you mean can you remote in from someplace else, I hope to God not. That would be the last thing I would ever want.

I am sure someone from ETC will chime in here, but I believe that all ETC consoles use a windows platform of some sort. Any other questions, just ask.


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## ledstixx (Mar 15, 2014)

Thanks for all the information. Do you have any information about Cobalt series. Which is comfortable for broadcast using. 

Also included ups is available Avo consoles even I saw on SGM Regia 2048 Pro.


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## Jay Ashworth (Mar 15, 2014)

What are you broadcasting; American Idol? 

Seriously; I can't imagine I've seen a TV show that wasn't *a live performance show* of that type, that you couldn't do on something in the range of a Smartfade... I'm sure I've never been in a broadcast facility with anything more complicated, though I am young, and not widely traveled...


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## ledstixx (Mar 15, 2014)

So, the remote control from someplace sometimes too important. For example, we have few different locations and I don't have experienced team for all the studios. If there is any problem, I can check even solve it from other location even from my home. 

Maybe it's too interesting for some people but we need to be ready to every thing. 

And a web browser. Why not? You are paying a lot of money. So why we are using iPhone for juat phone calls


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## ledstixx (Mar 15, 2014)

Jay Ashworth said:


> What are you broadcasting; American Idol?
> 
> Seriously; I can't imagine I've seen a TV show that wasn't *a live performance show* of that type, that you couldn't do on something in the range of a Smartfade... I'm sure I've never been in a broadcast facility with anything more complicated, though I am young, and not widely traveled...



 How can I explain it to you. I am not young and working since 15 years from concert to cinema and trust me, the console compatibility is too important. So, I can control everything with my small DMX tester but I am not talking about it


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## applstew (Mar 15, 2014)

FIRAT KONYALIOGLU said:


> So, the remote control from someplace sometimes too important. For example, we have few different locations and I don't have experienced team for all the studios. If there is any problem, I can check even solve it from other location even from my home.
> 
> Maybe it's too interesting for some people but we need to be ready to every thing.
> 
> And a web browser. Why not? You are paying a lot of money. So why we are using iPhone for juat phone calls



Why not a web browser? Because I wouldn't trust it while I'm running a mission critical show. Once a show is running the only thing someone is doing on my board is pressing go. And if I'm not in a show, I have a laptop next to me if I need the web because I am probably working hand in hand with something on the board. Now from the demo video of cobalt is does include a built in viewer of some sort for help and how to's.


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## SteveB (Mar 15, 2014)

It cannot be stated strongly enough that it's poor operating practice to have the lighting control system accessing the internet. This is an expensive tool that you want to be reliable while controlling your lighting system. ETC deliberately does not include the capability nor recommend this usage (nor do any of the major console manufacturers as far as I'm aware). 

As well, we pay our operators to pay attention to the job, surfing the internet while running a show, or while involved in the tech. process is not what they are getting paid to do. If you really need to do that, a laptop is a better tool.

As to remote access, you can certainly setup a desk to allow partition control to segment studios, then install wireless access points for iPad control from the studio. It's a common configuration and I know that the NYC CBS broadcast center uses iPads as remotes with Ions, throughout their facility.

Concerning UPS ?, I'd rather have a better quality stand-alone UPS unit (and do) then in the desk. 

As to Cobalt via Eos ?, that's a question that can only be answered after you sit down and demo both consoles. The Eos series are generally thought of as"theatrical" desks, oriented more towards an operator taking instructions from an LD. The Cobalt (and Congo prior) have a good reputation for one-off busking, with the LD at the desk. These are very generalized statements however that reflect typical design concepts for the desks. I use my Ion as example, about 70% of the time as a busking desk, but there are a lot of TV and movies in the U.S. using Eos, Gio and Ions. It's really personal preference as to operating syntax style.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## jglodeklights (Mar 16, 2014)

The Ti doesn't have motorized submasters...? I don't think so. It has ten motorized faders that can control 30 pages of playbacks and submasters. The external wings don't have motorized faders.


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## Lextech (Mar 16, 2014)

jglodeklights said:


> The Ti doesn't have motorized submasters...? I don't think so. It has ten motorized faders that can control 30 pages of playbacks and submasters. The external wings don't have motorized faders.


Really, learn something new everyday. So when do they move, switching pages? I have the fader wing so I don't switch pages to often.


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## jglodeklights (Mar 16, 2014)

Lextech said:


> Really, learn something new everyday. So when do they move, switching pages? I have the fader wing so I don't switch pages to often.



Yes, the faders will fly when you switch pages. On the external wing the LED's will flash to tell you that a fader is not at the same level on the new page.


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## Lextech (Mar 16, 2014)

Knew about the flashing on the wing, been there since at least expression. Again, have not had to switch on the main surface. Which thinking about it is strange since I rely on faders quite often.


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## danTt (Mar 16, 2014)

Eos and Cobalt both run on top of the windows operating system, as well. You seem to know just enough to be dangerous, without knowing enough to be prepared, to make this kind of decision.


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## starksk (Mar 16, 2014)

Hi All,

I've been asked to help clear a couple of things up (and as I was typing this long reply, some others have replied sorry for duplicate data). I'll start with the original list of requirements:

FIRAT KONYALIOGLU said:


> ...
> I am looking a new lighting console from ETC for our TV station. I am Avolites user and we are still using Avolites Titan system in the channel but there are some missing functions on the Avo consoles and I want to use more effective console. Avo is still working on Windows and actually I am not trusting to Windows based consoles.


Both Cobalt 20 and Eos Ti are based on a Windows 7 embedded operating system. This is not a bad thing. It helps push development faster, especially in the offline client side of the world when the programmers don't have to recode the same functions for different platforms. Remember that Windows Embedded is not the same as a fully functional copy of Windows. We customize the Windows portion to what we need and remove the extraneous items that (as it turns out) are the things that usually cause issues for Windows users.


FIRAT KONYALIOGLU said:


> 1) Mac compatible


Both Cobalt 20 and Eos Ti have a Mac offline program that can be used to edit show data. The Eos Family also currently has a client capability to view the live system with a Client Dongle (sold separately) and the Cobalt Family will also have this ability in a future software release.


FIRAT KONYALIOGLU said:


> 2) Advanced control over internet


Neither console family is designed to connect directly to the open internet. As @SteveB said, this is usually a bad idea. That being said, there are other alternatives in your system design that could give you more options. Why are you looking for this requirement? What is it specifically you are looking for in "advanced control"?


FIRAT KONYALIOGLU said:


> 3) Advanced control on LAN


Both Cobalt 20 and Eos Ti support Net3, sACN, ArtNet, and ETCNet2 EDMX output protocols.
Both consoles support remote control via iRFR/aRFR apps.
Both consoles support dimmer feedback from Sensor+, Sensor3, FDX 2000/3000 dimmer racks via the Local Area Network.


FIRAT KONYALIOGLU said:


> 4) No restart need for stable working


The only required restart is after updating software or firmware on both consoles. That being said, we do recommend that you restart either family of console at least once a month (preferably at least once a week) to help the system release any unused memory.


FIRAT KONYALIOGLU said:


> 5) High quality touch screens


Both Cobalt 20 and Eos Ti have 17.1" 14-point multi-touch monitors built-in. (If you can find a function where you need all 14-points, please let me know.)
Both consoles support any Windows 7 compatible touchscreen as external monitors.


FIRAT KONYALIOGLU said:


> 6) Fast fixture choosing


Is this question related to fixture channel selection or fixture patching?
Given that fixture personalities are on the list below, I am going to assume the former. Both consoles allow for selection via the touch screens as well as direct channel recall, group recall, and recall using the selection button on the master/submaster.


FIRAT KONYALIOGLU said:


> 7) Easy edit (add, remove or edit fixtures from recorded memory or cue)


"Easy" is going to depend entirely on your preferences. Both consoles provide quick and fast solutions for editing record targets (presets, palettes, cues, groups, subs, etc...)


FIRAT KONYALIOGLU said:


> 8) Motorized submasters


Cobalt 20 has 20 motorized master faders that can be assigned to several different types of content including presets, sequences, groups, channels, parameters, palettes, and more. Up to 999 pages of master settings/assignments may be stored with upto 80 masters active at one time.
Eos Ti has 10 motorized faders which can be assigned as either a submaster or a cue list. There are 30 pages of faders and up to 300 faders may be active at one time.


FIRAT KONYALIOGLU said:


> 9) Included UPS


Neither console has a built-in UPS. For the cost, space, and weight requirements needed to include it in the console, it would be more economical to use an off the shelf UPS.


FIRAT KONYALIOGLU said:


> 10) Advanced fixture database


Both consoles include an advanced fixture database that is regularly updated both with new software releases as well as interim library updates.


FIRAT KONYALIOGLU said:


> 11) Easy creating fixture personality file


If the fixture that you have is not in the library, both consoles include the ability to create your own fixture personality or copy an existing fixture personality that is close and edit it to the desired settings.


FIRAT KONYALIOGLU said:


> 12) Easy backup, and restore w/out any lost data or settings


Both consoles allow you to save your show data to the internal drive as well as allowing you to save to an external USB.Cobalt 20 even includes hard keys for Save and Save to USB.
There are certain settings on both consoles that are specific to the desk that you are operating. Cobalt 20 currently allows you to save these in a separate file that can be restored/loaded on to a different console and Eos Ti will include this functionality in a future software release.


FIRAT KONYALIOGLU said:


> 13) RDM compatibility


Cobalt 20 supports RDM natively on the local DMX ports and via Net3 ACN/RDM gateways.
Eos Ti supports RDM via Net3 ACN/RDM gateways and will support local RDM in a future software release.


FIRAT KONYALIOGLU said:


> 14) Included web browser


As stated in question 2 above, neither console is designed to be connected to the open internet. We believe that the console, while based on computer technology, should not be thought of as a computer, but as a specialized piece of lighting equipment.
If you just want something that kind of looks like a browser, Cobalt 20's on board help system is HTML based and includes robust search functionality that is similar to a web search 


jglodeklights said:


> The Ti doesn't have motorized submasters...? I don't think so. It has ten motorized faders that can control 30 pages of playbacks and submasters. The external wings don't have motorized faders.


Ti does include 10 motorized faders that can be assigned as submasters. There is not currently a motorized fader wing.


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## ledstixx (Mar 16, 2014)

Hi, there are many console have internal UPS now. Few days ago I saw an error message on the Avo Tiger Touch Pro, it was "power lost, the desk will shut down in 3 minutes" so, the power input cable had a poor connection, if we didn't have internal UPS, desk will turn of directly on live show (the external UPS can not save your power input problems). This is too important and the desk is not too expensive.

And everybody talking about web browser. I couldn't understand why? Because sometimes we are checking some important informations from internet, a data sheet or similar things. If an operator can not focus to his job this is his own problem. The browser is just an option and I can not see any mistake about it. 

About Windows based desks. I asked the ETC because I didn't see or use it so, we are still using windows based console (using same the Win7 embedded version). The company removed many Windows features from the OS but it's not a solution for Windows acceleration. 

About controlling the mixer from some other place. I explained it, we need to see and control to other locations. Now, I am using Avo Tiger Touch pros and I modified the Windows because the Windows embedded version didn't accept to webcam (for seeing the studios) usage or etc. We putted team viewer to the mixers and we always online between all the different locations. But this is illegal way, I am looking a legal and professional way for it. 

So, they're just features. If someone don't want to use it, there is no problem, just don't use but I or some other people can use.


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## Footer (Mar 16, 2014)

FIRAT KONYALIOGLU said:


> Hi, there are many console have internal UPS now. Few days ago I saw an error message on the Avo Tiger Touch Pro, it was "power lost, the desk will shut down in 3 minutes" so, the power input cable had a poor connection, if we didn't have internal UPS, desk will turn of directly on live show (the external UPS can not save your power input problems). This is too important and the desk is not too expensive.
> 
> And everybody talking about web browser. I couldn't understand why? Because sometimes we are checking some important informations from internet, a data sheet or similar things. If an operator can not focus to his job this is his own problem. The browser is just an option and I can not see any mistake about it.
> 
> ...



So, your complaining about reliability of the lighting consoles that you hacked so you can run webcams, teamviewer, and web browsers on them? Sounds like you just need to buy a PC and put it next to each console... 

These are lighting consoles, not computers. With the ETC stuff you can not even get to the windows portion of the OS. These consoles should not be put on the internet, they are not updated enough to contain all the security patches you need to be on the internet.


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## ledstixx (Mar 16, 2014)

Footer said:


> So, your complaining about reliability of the lighting consoles that you hacked so you can run webcams, teamviewer, and web browsers on them? Sounds like you just need to buy a PC and put it next to each console...
> 
> These are lighting consoles, not computers. With the ETC stuff you can not even get to the windows portion of the OS. These consoles should not be put on the internet, they are not updated enough to contain all the security patches you need to be on the internet.




I know, maybe I have a risk now but there is no other alternative for me. What is your advice? The console is accepting internet connection but doesn't give all the options. If the company engineers want to do, I am sure it's not a difficult work for them.

Sometimes professionalism isn't enough for solving problems. The rules and conditions are changing from country to country.


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## SteveB (Mar 16, 2014)

FIRAT KONYALIOGLU said:


> . Now, I am using Avo Tiger Touch pros and I modified the Windows because the Windows embedded version didn't accept to webcame.



When you spend upwards of +$25,000 on a control desk, as well as multiple thousands for ancillary devices, I would think you wouldn't want to muck around with the basic operating system, so as to add a few tweaks. 

Do you expect Avo to actually support a desk that has been modified in a manner that is completely outside anything they installed or are aware of ?. When you do this kind of adjustments and tweaks, you find yourself right back in the good old days of Windows, when Microsoft would tell you "It's the software you added" while the software company would tell you "it's Windows". When you leave the desk alone and avoid tweaks, the manufacturer is guaranteed to be able to support the desk when you call with a problem. When you add crap, they cannot. ETC is renowned for the tech support and if you choose to modify the OS then you just lost that support. 

At this point in the thread, many have given professional opinions on this subject that you seemingly disagree with. My recommendation at this point would be to explore other control options as I doubt you will find what you are looking for from ETC.


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## ledstixx (Mar 16, 2014)

So, is that user forum or manufacturer?. Because you are talking like after sales personal. If I need support like this, I can send an e-mail to provider and there will be VIP answer in few minutes in my mailbox.

I made a VS. between 2 mixer and asked some features but you are still talking about guarantee. Do you think I left from my job and trying to hack lighting mixers? If I need the functions, SO this mean I just need. ETC can give or not, there are many alternatives in the World. I am working since 15 years and I didn't use any ETC controller but I can turn on the lights right? I saw an ad on internet and asked to people. I asked some features and some people gave the answers, why you are still talking about why web browser, internet................., it's lighting console etc. I know it's lighting console and I am not trying to turn on the stage monitors with this mixer. Please stop it and give sensible answers and make sure I know the guarantee rules.

Thanks.


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## SteveB (Mar 16, 2014)

FIRAT KONYALIOGLU said:


> So, is that user forum or manufacturer?. Because you are talking like after sales personal. If I need support like this, I can send an e-mail to provider and there will be VIP answer in few minutes in my mailbox.
> 
> I made a VS. between 2 mixer and asked some features but you are still talking about guarantee. Do you think I left from my job and trying to hack lighting mixers? If I need the functions, SO this mean I just need. ETC can give or not, there are many alternatives in the World. I am working since 15 years and I didn't use any ETC controller but I can turn on the lights right? I saw an ad on internet and asked to people. I asked some features and some people gave the answers, why you are still talking about why web browser, internet................., it's lighting console etc. I know it's lighting console and I am not trying to turn on the stage monitors with this mixer. Please stop it and give sensible answers and make sure I know the guarantee rules.
> 
> Thanks.



Who's post are you replying too ?

I am not a manufacturers rep. I'm a professional LD at a road house in the US, with 40 years in the business. I have, as a result, worked with countless computer based lighting control systems and am thus keenly aware of how important it is that the control console function correctly, else a lot of money stands to be lost. Thus I question some of your desires and goals for a new control system, the connection to the internet as one item, the desire to add additional non-manufacturer provided software as another. I am not alone here in these opinions, it's been stated repeatedly that these two desires particularly, are ill advised. A manufacturers representative chimed in with similar advice. As well, the desire to have built in UPS is not offered in the ETC desks, for many well stated reasons, but if that's important just be aware that while you may find that in another desk, you may be be giving up the functionality you like in the Eos or Cobalt platform. That's your choice.

You came to this site looking for advice on the two ETC consoles and other then your two ill-advised goals for the console, it appears that either would do what you want. The Eos platform is widely used in TV studios in the US, I read a lot of posts both here and on the Facebook Eos page from both television and film professionals who love this desk for the functionality it provides. Along with that functionality (which you can get in other desks as well, Hog, MA, ChamSys, Avo as example) is the support that ETC provides to it's customers that is unequaled in the business. But you need to know that should you desire to add 2nd party software to the console, you may well void the warranty as well as making it potentially impossible to have the technical support people solve any problem that might develop in the console. I would not go that route but it's your choice and good luck with it.


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## Jay Ashworth (Mar 16, 2014)

For the record, Firat: I too have made a living for 3 decades telling people that what they want is not what they need -- that it's not the most effective solution to their problem -- and I can't say I've ever done a better job than the 3 professionals here telling you why you really don't want to connect your $25000 desk to the Internet and use it as a web browser, when you could put a $300 laptop next to it and use that.

If I were them, I would give this up as a waste of my time.

You've been given *professional* advice. If you're disinclined to take it, you should probably stop asking now.

And, also for the record: if your production LAN isn't airgapped from your work LAN, you're a nutbag, too. 

(Yes, guys, I realize that sounds perilously close to a conversation everyone was kind enough not to have with *me* about chinese LED wash lights 2 weeks ago; shut *up*. )


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## starksk (Mar 17, 2014)

Okay folks, let's keep it civil. Remember this is an international board and just because there is an established practice in the US doesn't mean that everyone else does it the same way.

@FIRAT KONYALIOGLU, I apologize for missing your post about why you were looking for the internet connectivity feature. You had indeed answered that question.

I think the issue in this thread is that your core philosophy about console hardware and ETC's core philosophy are different. Please correct me if I am misinterpreting, but it appears that your core philosophy about computerized lighting consoles is that because it is a computer that is also a lighting console, it should be able to do all of the things a regular computer can do too.
ETC's core philosophy is that it is a lighting console that happens to be on a computer platform. We believe that the hardware should be dedicated to the task of controlling the lights without the performance impacts other, non-lighting features of a computer may incur.

While these core philosophies are different, let's talk about solutions for your needs. As others have suggested, using a separate computer as your remote interface is the preferred method within the ETC design structure. What does this mean? We would recommend a separate computer with 2 NICs (Network Interface Cards) and a client dongle for that computer. One network connection would be to your lighting network, the other network connection would be to the internet.
Here's why:

A separate computer can support the webcam, team viewer, anti-virus, and other software without impacting the performance of the lighting console.
By installing devices on the separate computer, the lighting console is guaranteed not to have adverse driver interactions or other concerns that could happen when the core OS is modified.
With a client dongle, you can control the master console in the room while allowing the operator to do his/her job. They can be the same user or different users allowing you to change the interaction as you need.
A separate computer greatly reduces the risk of the console being affected by viruses.
A separate computer allows your lighting network to be more streamlined and efficient because all of the lighting gear does not need to ignore the traffic from email, printers, and Google searches that may be clogging bandwidth.
A separate computer allows for your webcam and team viewer software to be active, even if the console is not. 

A separate computer can support your VNC connection needed to interface and remotely log in and control it.
Ultimately, I can tell you, as an ETC Technical Support Specialist (an employee of ETC), if you were to modify the base OS of the console, and you experienced an issue, the first thing we would ask you to do is restore the original OS to see if that cleared the issue. We take a lot of time testing performance impacts of the software that we use to control the lighting and adjust the settings in the base OS to reflect that. If those base OS settings were further modified, we would not be able to support the changes. I don't mean this to scare you, I just want you to have all of the facts.

Regarding the UPS internal to the consoles, you are correct that in the situation you described with a loose mains connector, you would not have been protected. Hopefully better training for those setting up the console would help. Once upon a time, the ETC Congo console shipped with a UPS built in (2004-2006). We discovered that consoles losing power wasn't something that was happening as regularly as people thought. We also discovered that the impacts on manufacturing and shipping by including the UPS were costing us (and ultimately our end-users) more than an off the shelf UPS. We decided to remove that cost and hassle and rely on the external UPS that were being installed. Does this solve everything? No. Should we reconsider this design decision in the future? Perhaps. All I can say is that neither Cobalt 20, nor Eos Ti offer an internal UPS.

Both Eos Family and Cobalt Family consoles are being used in active live-to-air broadcasts daily all around the world. In the US it tends to be more Eos Family centric as that family has a wider adoption here. Other places like BBC are using Cobalt Family consoles for their broadcast needs. I have no doubt that either family of console could handle your broadcasts and I would encourage you to download the offline/client software for each family and see which feels more comfortable for you. I would also encourage you to contact your ETC distributor about arranging a demo of a console to get some hands-on time to know if the console will work for you.

There has been a lot of back and forth on this thread, please keep asking questions and expressing opinions. You may find that the Cobalt 20 or Eos Ti is a good fit for your needs, you may not, but hopefully I have helped and not hindered your search for knowledge.

P.S.: I know nothing about Avo Tiger Touch Pro consoles or their operating software, but you may find that the suggestion for using an external computer above might apply and resolve the performance issues you have been experiencing. If they have a client software, I would encourage you to check it out and give it a try.


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## TuckerD (Mar 17, 2014)

I think if this is about the ETC EOS Ti and The ETC Cobalt 20 I would recommend the Cobalt 20. 

Its a cost thing. I have never price checked an EOS Ti but I did run a check on the Cobalt 20 when it first came out and the price tag was heavy. About $45,000. In my head the Ti has to cost between $80,000 and $90,000. I could be way way off about that though. 

I also might not have the best perspective on the things though. I work at a house that doesn't realize that lights cost money to up keep and how much effort that takes. They are starting to come around but upgrading their console from an ETC Express 48 / 96 to anything new is out of the question for the next few years. 

If it weren't for a grant from ETC I would never have gotten 14 new source four jr's in their hands. Thank's ETC


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## ledstixx (Mar 17, 2014)

Thanks for understanding.

At the end of the day;

ETC Cobalt has all the wanted features w/out 3rd party applications and remote control over internet and using Windows platform. Any compliant about this mixer?


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