# S4 PAR vs. Altman Star PAR vs. MBT etc.



## hemismith (Sep 17, 2011)

Does anyone have any experience with the Altman or other "copies" of the Source Four PAR? I found the lenses very hard to change with the Source Four, but maybe they have a tool I didn't have. But I'm mainly interested in saving some money. I prefer to buy name brand but this is for my church and funds are very very limited. Thanks.


----------



## Les (Sep 17, 2011)

The problem with the off-brand clones (other than the Altman, which is a high quality unit which I don't consider a "direct copy") is that they cheap out on things that matter to the longevity of the fixture. You will find lower quality reflectors, cheaper hardware (nuts, bolts, etc), and rubber cords in lieu of fiberglass sheathed Teflon high-temp leads. Most of these clones cost around $100 each, in which case I would buy a standard Altman par can before I'd buy an opti-par, ultra-par, flexi-par, etc. 

It would also be more difficult to source replacement parts for these "clones". You could probably upgrade all the electrics to high-temp standard parts, but who wants to buy a fixture with the intention of doing this.. By the time you got it to where you wanted it, you had might as well have spent the extra $50 on a Source Four Par. 

As far as light output, I'd say they're OK, but having never done a side-by-side shootout with ETC's par, I don't know just how bright they are in comparison. I had a couple of American DJ Opti-Par's (which I believe is the oldest copy), and they were pretty punchy, but the reflector didn't look as precise as the Source Four Par. The overall tooling on the Opti was flimsy and undersized and the beam pattern did seem more uneven than usual. Reflectors are riveted in place, which tells me that the manufacturer considers the unit more disposable than serviceable. 

The Altman Star Par, which uses the idea of ETC's Source Four Par without blatantly copying it, is most likely a decent instrument, though I have never seen it in the wild. I suspect the build quality and parts availability to be good, and the light output is probably as comparable as it's going to get without using an HPL lamp. If there are any quirks with it, I would suspect them to have to do with the lens retaining ring, as no manufacturer has one that is super simple to use in all orientations (you have a double edge sword of needing the lens to fit securely while keeping the ability to be remove it easily without the use of tools). 

At the end of the day, I'd go with the Source Four par or _maybe_ the Altman Star Par if lamp types are an issue. If you can't afford that, I'd just buy the traditional steel Altman Par 64.


----------



## hemismith (Sep 17, 2011)

Excellent points, thanks very much. I'll have to see if I can find an Altman to try out.


----------



## jglodeklights (Sep 17, 2011)

The Altman Star PAR is a completely different beast than the S4 PAR. It essentially takes a standard PAR 64, loses the can, doesn't combine the lamp with the lens, and uses a standard bi-pin HP/HX/GL series lamp. Like a standard PAR 64, you get the larger 10 inch gel frame size. Unlike the S4 PAR, which is incredibly easy in regards to spinning the bottle, the Star PAR is not. There are three tabs on the lens ring at the front of the unit. They tend to get bent and get stuck in the gel frame and accessory holder tabs, which they must pass through in order to move. We also have the rule at my theater that a gel frame must ALWAYS be in these fixtures when hung. The spring loaded retainers for the lens ring wear easily and have a tendency to fail, or to be significantly less secure. If the unit is rocked too much during focus or is bumped by scenery the lens can be released from the fixture. Additionally, we experience more issues with lamp burnouts than our S4 PARs, probably due to poorer heat management (or maybe just that HP/GL series lamps aren't as good as HPL's at surviving? My Shakespeares have the same problem). Finally, the gel/accessory clip returns on its own, which can be annoying while working one handed on a 12 foot A Frame on a 10 foot high platform. Get the picture? 

I'm not a fan, except that they do have nice output IMO.

Additionally, the Star PAR runs just under $150, only about $10 less than the S4 PAR.


----------



## SteveB (Sep 17, 2011)

We change our S4 lenses when they are hanging on the pipe. We have the electric at about +5 ft above deck, point the fixture straight out at 90 degrees, spin the lens so the release tab is on top, and use a dental pick type tool (scratch awl works, as does a small flat bladed screwdriver, ground down and given a slight bend to the tip), modified in a vise to have a slight bend, to simultaneously push up on the spring tab as well as grab the back of the lens to pop it out.


----------



## sk8rsdad (Sep 17, 2011)

My tool of choice for extracting S4 PAR lenses is one of these, available at most paint stores.


----------



## soundlight (Sep 17, 2011)

I'm going to put another vote against the Star Par. They are horrendous to change lenses on and as stated, it's very hard to "spin the bottle". I find Source Four Par lenses fairly easy to change, but I have extensive experience and a few tricks up my sleeve with regards to this. I find that sometimes a pocketknife is very useful for sliding in to pop out the lens (with a thin blade) and if all else fails open the back and use a dowel with a rag wrapped around the end to push the lens out gently.

Star Pars also blow through gel quicker in my experience.


----------



## derekleffew (Sep 17, 2011)

soundlight said:


> ...and use a dowel with a rag wrapped around the end to push the lens out gently. ...


Rarely do I need to resort to it, but for the most stubborn of lenses, a drumstick works well. I like to have the fixture hanging and pointing straight down, with the gelframe clip toward me, and the lens retaining clip just underneath it. Squeeze the clip with one hand, and bang on the front of the fixture with the heel of the other hand.

There's also this:

10 out of 10 productions - Showtec Pars
but I've never seen one in use.

I've only used the StarPAR once, and I seem to recall one had to remove the colorframe to spin the lens?


----------



## jglodeklights (Sep 17, 2011)

derekleffew said:


> I've only used the StarPAR once, and I seem to recall one had to remove the colorframe to spin the lens?



Yes, this is true (unless you want to cut yourself on the frame). The Star PAR essentially has three slots at its front. From furthest from lens to closest: A. accessory slot, B. color frame slot. C. path for tabs used to spin the lens. As I stated, we leave the color frames in except when spinning the lens as a safety precaution lest the lens ring retaining tabs fail (I've gone up and found a Star PAR I focused with the the lens sitting on one tab and the other side on the color frame). I've had two instances where the retaining tabs for the lens ring have released while I was spinning the lens. One left the lens and lens ring in my hand, a lucky catch; the other ended with shattered glass on the deck.


----------



## zmb (Sep 18, 2011)

derekleffew said:


> There's also this:
> 
> 10 out of 10 productions - Showtec Pars
> but I've never seen one in use.


 
The link doesn't work.

I've struggled to get the lens out too and I have seen one of those too but never used one. I was thinking that some sort of tool had to exist to make it easier and I was right.


----------



## derekleffew (Sep 18, 2011)

zmb said:


> The link doesn't work. ...


Hmmm. [no parse]http://www.10outof10.co.uk/acatalog/PAR_s.html[/no parse] scroll all the way to the bottom of the page. I thought I had seen these on a US vendor's site, but can't find it.

EDIT: a US (New Hope, Minnesota) located vendor: PA-FLEXIPARTOOL
[no parse]http://www.cmpstore.com/PAR-Lens-Removal-Tool-PA-FLEXIPARTOOL.htm[/no parse]


----------



## hemismith (Sep 18, 2011)

Thanks everyone, fantastic invaluable information. I wondered if that flexipar tool would work on the Source Four. I have one of those paint tools and I guess I could make something as well. I thought I would need something thinner than that but then strength would be an issue. I'm surprised ETC hasn't come up with something better.

When I had looked at the S4 PAR a while ago the prices seemed quite a bit cheaper than I see it for now -- I thought even cheaper than the Altman. But I searched and found another source that is more reasonable. Unfortunately some web sites aren't clear about what is included so it makes shopping difficult.


----------



## jglodeklights (Sep 18, 2011)

hemismith said:


> When I had looked at the S4 PAR a while ago the prices seemed quite a bit cheaper than I see it for now -- I thought even cheaper than the Altman. But I searched and found another source that is more reasonable. Unfortunately some web sites aren't clear about what is included so it makes shopping difficult.



ETC actually packages them all with 4 lenses (WFL, MFL, NSP, VNSP), a color frame, and a bare three foot power lead. C-Clamps are optional (S4 ERS units always include the C-Clamp), as are the different power connectors (which many dealers offer, at a price, installed or simply included in your package for you to install). Beware of sellers that only add the color frame or additional lenses at additional cost. 

Also, recognize that there are two versions of the S4 PAR. The less expensive option, EA, has the standard enhanced aluminum reflector. The other, more expensive, version, MCM, has a metal cold mirror reflector that allows a great amount of heat to escape through the rear of the unit versus the front than in the EA version. Additionally, you can specify either in a white "architectural" finish that will add to the cost!


----------



## SteveB (Sep 18, 2011)

jglodeklights said:


> Also, recognize that there are two versions of the S4 PAR. The less expensive option, EA, has the standard enhanced aluminum reflector. The other, more expensive, version, MCM, has a metal cold mirror reflector that allows a great amount of heat to escape through the rear of the unit versus the front than in the EA version. Additionally, you can specify either in a white "architectural" finish that will add to the cost!



Also note that the EA S4 Par will take the 750w lamp, while the MCM only takes up to the 575w lamp.


----------



## hemismith (Sep 19, 2011)

Thanks again everyone. What is the difference between the MCM mirror and the dichroic reflector of the ERS? I guess I assumed that all Source Fours had some type of reflector that let heat out the back as that's what they are known for, but I guess the EA has none of that.


----------



## jglodeklights (Sep 19, 2011)

The Source 4 ERS uses a Borosilicate glass, aka Pyrex, as the base of its reflector. It is then coated with the reflective material. The coating on the MCM is not only different, but the reflector itself is metal; thus the designation Metal versus just Cold Mirror (which is really just a form of a dichroic reflector).


----------



## hemismith (Sep 19, 2011)

Interesting, thanks!


----------



## gafftapegreenia (Sep 19, 2011)

Just have to mention that L&E makes the Corona PAR. Not a blatant S4 copy, and also PAR 64 sized. While I've never had to chance to use one, I'm sure that like all L&E products, they are service grade models that are certainly a step above any DJ company. 

http://le-us.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/le_corona_specsheet_updated_12_10.pdf

I've never thought of using a church key for lens removal, I'll have to give that a shot. I know one guy with a homemade tool, a small 3" long piece of thin steel with the last 1/8" at a 90 degree bend,


----------



## jglodeklights (Sep 19, 2011)

Certainly a viable, albeit more expensive, alternative to the Altman Star PAR if one wishes to have the bi-pin lamp socket. However, more expensive than either the Altman or ETC PARs. And it takes the 10 inch frames. Great for a nice diffuse output, but means larger gel cuts. 4 versus 6 for the S4 PAR or Fresnel.


----------



## JohnA (Sep 19, 2011)

I have one of the extraction tools that Derek has mentioned. I use it ALL the time to remove the S4 PAR lenses; it makes life much easier. I was fortunate enough to get the last one my preferred vendor had on hand  The best $3 I ever spent! I thought he said it was made by AMDJ, but I too have never been able to find it on their site (or anywhere else for that matter).


----------



## hemismith (Sep 20, 2011)

I didn't realize L&E had one. The 10 inch frames would fit the top hats I have for my current PARs, but I would prefer the smaller size.

If I get any of these options I'll definitely try to locate a source for that tool.


----------



## Sean (Nov 12, 2011)

JohnA said:


> I have one of the extraction tools that Derek has mentioned. I use it ALL the time to remove the S4 PAR lenses; it makes life much easier. I was fortunate enough to get the last one my preferred vendor had on hand  The best $3 I ever spent! I thought he said it was made by AMDJ, but I too have never been able to find it on their site (or anywhere else for that matter).



Which is your 'preferred vendor'??


----------



## len (Nov 12, 2011)

The Elation tool is part #Z-OP/LR and is listed as an optional part on the Opti-Par page Elation Professional - Professional Lighting Products

I had one once but never used it.

If you have an S4 par loose (not on a batten, truss, etc.) Just rotate the clip to the top, then press it in while banging the bottom of the fixture on a case or bench. Works every time, unless the retaining clip is really bent.


----------



## Technitony (Feb 14, 2012)

Sean said:


> Which is your 'preferred vendor'??



Thank you all for the kind referral. These are available through our dealer network, we make them: Details for PA-FLEXIPARTOOL


----------



## derekleffew (Feb 14, 2012)

Thank you Tony, and welcome to ControlBooth. Confusion still reigns...

Technitony said:


> ...These are available through our dealer network, we make them...


Is there a listing of the members of your dealer network (I couldn't find it on your website)?

Can one assume the $10.29 price on your link is the MSRP, and that you do not sell direct? The vendor listed in post#11 above (and only vendor I have found) has them priced at $5.54, a somewhat significant difference to many.


----------



## Technitony (Feb 14, 2012)

derekleffew said:


> Thank you Tony, and welcome to ControlBooth. Confusion still reigns...
> Is there a listing of the members of your dealer network (I couldn't find it on your website)?
> 
> Can one assume the $10.29 price on your link is the MSRP, and that you do not sell direct? The vendor listed in post#11 above (and only vendor I have found) has them priced at $5.54, a somewhat significant difference to many.



Thank you for the welcome. The price of $10.29 is indeed the MSRP, many dealers will sell for less. The dealer you have listed above is a fine choice for a dealer and will be able to sell more of these as soon as our backorders are cleared (hopefully within 30 days) but they will need to increase their pricing some I do believe, freight and materials have gone thru the roof. Due to our large number of dealers (1500+) we do not list them all on our website but we are always happy to help direct you by contacting us directly. We do prefer to sell thru our dealers though. Unfortunately I do not believe that any of our dealers will have any stock on the tools for another 30 days at least, they have proven to be far more popular than we expected and we have been a victim of our own success and not fast enough to produce, that is being remedied as we speak. I do not want to clog up this board with all of our contact info but please feel free to visit Welcome to Techni-Lux at any time to get in touch with us. We are a full line Lighting Manufacturer and distributor along with a Design division if we can be of any assistance. Tony

P.S. We also sell our own version of the PAR discussed above, that is what the tool is made for actually. 


http://www.techni-lux.com/default.aspx?tabid=13&id=2993


----------



## SteveB (Feb 14, 2012)

A thanks to Derek for finding this and sending me one.

I got to try this out recently, swapping a lot of Par lenses around. 

In a few words, it works great and is well worth it for anyone having to swap S4 lenses. It's much better then a metal paint can opener or dental pick as it will not damage the edge of the glass. It easily pushes against the spring clip, with the side teeth getting behind the lens to pry it away from the unit body.

It's something ETC should get their hands on to be sending along with the fixtures. 

Good designed tool, does exactly and well, what it's intended for.

Pic's attached:


----------



## LightTech (Feb 14, 2012)

I have two Star Pars and 4 Source Four PARS in my rig. The S4s are brighter.


----------



## derekleffew (May 10, 2012)

A post to the SML has revealed this device, American DJ Z OP LR Opti Par Lens Remover | Full Compass , which appears similar to the PA-FLEXIPARTOOL, at a significantly lower price.


----------



## JohnD (May 10, 2012)

I picked up a couple of the Flexi tool, or something just like it, from Ebay:
NIB ETC Source Four Par Lens Removal Tool S4 | eBay
I should do a mock rant about the huge price increase, I got mine maybe a month ago and they were only $5. each and first class shipping was only $1., now the price is $6 + $1.75 first class mail shipping. The nice thing is that MonkeyWrenchPro included a nifty neck lanyard AND some banana candy.


----------



## Kelite (May 11, 2012)

LightTech said:


> I have two Star Pars and 4 Source Four PARS in my rig. The S4s are brighter.



Can you tell us which lamps (wattage as well) are installed in these?


----------



## hobbsies (May 11, 2012)

The s4 par lense remover tools are awesome. I've used them many times and they work brilliantly. The trick with removing par lenses is to line up the black latch that holds the lense in with the gel frame clip, hold the unit so it points down and press that latch in. The lense should slide out towards the front of the instrument. If you have one of the lense remover tools, you don't need to hold the instrument pointing down, instead just slide the lense remover tool over the latch and use the small flaps on the side of the tool to grab the lense.

If you try to remove a s4par lense without lining up the latch and the gel frame clip, the lense will get stuck. 

Highly recommend those tools.


----------



## len (May 11, 2012)

I never had issues with removing S4 lenses. Even the one time I had to run thru a batch of the Elation copies, not too bad. As long as the lens was put in correctly, it should come out easily. Just get the retaining spring in line with the gel frame clip, depress the spring with one hand, and give it a bump on a table.

It's more difficult if it's hanging in a grid, etc., but still possible.


----------



## jglodeklights (May 12, 2012)

len said:


> I never had issues with removing S4 lenses. Even the one time I had to run thru a batch of the Elation copies, not too bad. As long as the lens was put in correctly, it should come out easily. Just get the retaining spring in line with the gel frame clip, depress the spring with one hand, and give it a bump on a table.
> 
> It's more difficult if it's hanging in a grid, etc., but still possible.



I have to say I've had issues plenty of times, but more specifically when dealing with lens sets and bodies that are a mix of different generations. While the specifications should be the same, as far as I understand it, there are slight differences that can mean easy insertion and EXTREMELY difficult extraction when the body and lens are of different generations. I've spent 15 minutes jumping up and down trying to get a lens out because it was the last S4 PAR in stock and I needed it to work. More frustrating than when a lens is partially removed with the retaining clip incorrectly placed in the body.


----------



## derekleffew (Jul 7, 2013)

JohnD said:


> I picked up a couple of the Flexi tool, or something just like it, from Ebay:
> NIB ETC Source Four Par Lens Removal Tool S4 | eBay
> I should do a mock rant about the huge price increase, I got mine maybe a month ago and they were only $5. each and first class shipping was only $1., now the price is $6 + $1.75 first class mail shipping. The nice thing is that MonkeyWrenchPro included a nifty neck lanyard AND some banana candy.


Looks like the price is back to $4.95 + $1.75 shipping, from two different eBay vendors:
Etc Source Four Par Lens Removal Tool S4 Opti Par Lens Removal Tool | eBay
Etc Source Four Par Lens Removal Tool S4 | eBay

I remembered to take mine to work the other day as in the past this particular show had a lot of lens swappage. Alas, not a single lens needed exchanging. So I still haven't had a chance to use it.


----------

