# Stage rigging collapses at Indiana State Fair



## zmb

This seems to be more common than I thought.

Dozen hurt as Indiana fair stage collapses - Local News - Indianapolis, IN - msnbc.com


----------



## sdauditorium

zmb said:


> This seems to be more common than I thought.
> 
> Dozen hurt as Indiana fair stage collapses - Local News - Indianapolis, IN - msnbc.com


 
It said evacuations had been started before the collapse, but it makes you wonder if they delayed it longer than necessary. Unless this storm cell developed a short radius from the fairgrounds and didn't give them time to evacuate, they likely had a fair amount of warning time.


----------



## ScottT

Video of the collapse:


----------



## zmb

Update: 3 dead
Nation & World | Authorities: 3 dead in Indiana fair stage collapse | Seattle Times Newspaper


----------



## sdauditorium

zmb said:


> Update: 3 dead
> Nation & World | Authorities: 3 dead in Indiana fair stage collapse | Seattle Times Newspaper


 
4 dead according to the AP/Yahoo.


----------



## cpf

I just finished volunteering (managing the merch! fun stuff!) at a very small music fest that runs near where I live, and there was quite some interesting weather (this to be specific, and this was _after_ I finished holding down one of the legs on the AV tent to keep it blowing away). From that experience, and chatting with the organizers afterwards, I believe it's just an attitude of "it won't happen to us, we're too small/big/professional/low-key/lucky/ignorant!" Of course, that's the wrong way to go about disaster planning, but 99% of the time it "works," so people don't change. It's heartbreaking when people die because of it.


----------



## Robersim

Was this just bad planning on the part of riggers/rental companies? Or was it a freak accident?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ScottT

Robersim said:


> Was this just bad planning on the part of riggers/rental companies? Or was it a freak accident?


 
We probably won't know for a while, but there seems to be a lot of this type of stuff happening this summer.

EDIT: Video of the aftermath


----------



## techieman33

In the midwest a storm can pop up out of nowhere, you see the clouds rolling in and then wham crazy high winds hit. There isn't always enough time to safe the stage before the winds hit. I don't know if it's happening more often because of the crazy weather this summer, or if maintenance is falling off as companies are struggling to get by and the gear is getting older and older. Either way it's sad to see it happen.


----------



## DrPinto

Wow. You can hear the wind blowing hard in the video.


----------



## DrPinto

Here's a video that's clearer:

Indiana State Fair Stage Collapses: At Least 3 Dead (DISTURBING VIDEO)


----------



## mstaylor

It is never good when something like this happens. I do many outdoor events and have had to cut open scrims and drop roofs in the past. 
According to the story I read they said 4 dead, 43 injured.
Stage collapse at Indiana State Fair kills at least 4 - CNN.com


----------



## Footer

I think we are just hearing more about this now then we did before. Also, larger stages are now being put up because acts want to pull the same shows they put up in sheds into the portable stages. Its possible that the structure did not have enough guy wires on it. However, I doubt that. In reality, odds are the roof held up to more wind then it was designed to. Those roofs become giant sails in the wind. What is supposed to be done in a high wind situation is the roof is lowered. If a storm moves in quickly, that can't be done. Unfortunately, it becomes a situation where the promoter does not want to hear from someone that they need to cancel the show because there might be high winds.


----------



## JohnHuntington

I just put up a radar loop, this front and its high winds were visible as the storm moved all the way across the state. Tragic...


----------



## mstaylor

It's my understanding it was a MidAmerica Stage.


----------



## LekoBoy

While it is certainly a tragedy, it could have been much, much worse. 
It could have happened AFTER Sugarland performed. 


Apologies to Christian and Jennifer, just trying to lighten the mood.


----------



## FMEng

JohnHuntington said:


> I just put up a radar loop, this front and its high winds were visible as the storm moved all the way across the state. Tragic...


 
If that's the case, I wouldn't be surprised if the National Weather Service had issued storm warnings, which should have triggered an evacuation. 

I've said it before here, and I'll say it again: Anyone in charge of an outdoor venue needs to have an NWS SAME alert radio and someone monitoring it. SAME radios are cheap and they work by sounding an alert when it receives a warning for the location it is programmed for. They are a good thing to have in your home, too.

I know a couple of meteorologists from the NWS, and I know a fair amount about what they do. The NWS isn't perfect, but they save lives when people heed their warnings. Nobody ever died from having to leave a concert early or from having to refund some tickets.


----------



## DuckJordan

It sounds as if to make these stages safer would be to have some sort of roof tarp release from the ground. It sounds as if removing the banners and roof tarp could have saved this one and many others.

Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk


----------



## Footer

DuckJordan said:


> It sounds as if to make these stages safer would be to have some sort of roof tarp release from the ground. It sounds as if removing the banners and roof tarp could have saved this one and many others.
> 
> Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk


 
And the video walls, line arrays, backdrops for the band, etc don't help either. This collapse has the makings of being "the station" for the mobile stages market.

...... Something involving tapatalk.......


----------



## techieman33

DuckJordan said:


> It sounds as if to make these stages safer would be to have some sort of roof tarp release from the ground. It sounds as if removing the banners and roof tarp could have saved this one and many others.
> 
> Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk


 
Most of the side and back panels are designed be raised or lowered out of the way quickly. I haven't seen a roof with the same ability yet though, they're generally just meant to be lowered down as far as possible in the case of approaching storms, you don't always have time to get riggers in the air and get it ready to do so though.


----------



## derekleffew

ANSI E1.21 - 2006 Temporary Ground-Supported Overhead Structures Used To Cover Stage Areas and Support Equipment in the Production of Outdoor Entertainment Events

ANSI E1.21-2006, Temporary Ground-Supported Overhead Structures Used To Cover Stage Areas and Support Equipment in the Production of Outdoor Entertainment Events, establishes minimum design and performance parameters for the design, manufacturing, use, and maintenance of temporary outdoor stage roofs. Roofs are useful for supporting audio and lighting equipment and for keeping sun and rain off performers and equipment at summer music festivals, but strong storms can turn them into missiles or rubble. E1.21 is designed to ensure that only violent storms are a problem and that appropriate safety measures are in place to prevent or limit damage when these storms arise.


----------



## derekleffew

mstaylor said:


> It's my understanding it was a MidAmerica Stage.


Your understanding might be correct.



Steel Roof Truss Design Systems Manufacturer Metal Roof Trusses


Jennifer Nettles, Kristian Bush - Sugarland In Concert - Sugarland's Stage Collapses - Photo Gallery - LIFE

-----

Rumor on other Internet sites has it that two IA Local 30 stagehands were injured. Also that (possibly the same) two truss spot ops were in the truss when it collapsed.

EDIT: Correction, four truss spot ops: two critical, one with a broken leg, and one "just banged up."


----------



## JohnHuntington

A bit clearer video on CNN--this one is really horrifying.


----------



## JohnHuntington

FMEng said:


> If that's the case, I wouldn't be surprised if the National Weather Service had issued storm warnings, which should have triggered an evacuation.



Looks like the watch went up from the Storm Prediction Center about 1/2 an hour after the incident.

EDITED: Looking more carefully I found the previous watch--the area was under a watch at the time of the incident.

It's possible that this line had a warning on it, I'm trying to figure out how to find that archive, which are issued by local forecast offices.

And I totally agree with you about the SAME radio--I have one here at home in Brooklyn and it just went off for a Flash Flood Warning. Cost me about $40. I have a little portable one that I used for years on the Met Opera/NY Phil outdoor tours, and there is apparently an IPhone app that works the same way. I get text messages for severe storms in NYC.

I think the NWS does a fantastic job--I just did a little write up on the local office last Sunday when they had their annual open house.

But an event this size, I think, should be talking with someone at the NWS or a local TV station or something.

John


----------



## JohnBirchman

WISH 8 out of Indy reported that the latest death (#5) was a stagehand from IA local 30, 52-year-old stagehand Nathan Byrd, passing away at 5am this morning. His brother spoke, and said that he was one of the truss spot ops, possibly in a down-stage position.


----------



## ScottT

Photos from the collapse: https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.233517350025642.61407.100001021352237&type=1


----------



## sdauditorium

ScottT said:


> Photos from the collapse: https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.233517350025642.61407.100001021352237&type=1


 
Amazing photos..gave me chills as I perused them.


----------



## derekleffew

From indystar :

> But the weather near the Indiana State Fairgrounds was starting to get dicey. Backstage, State Police special operations commander Brad Weaver was watching an ugly storm moving in on radar via his smartphone. He and fair Executive Director Cindy Hoye decided it was time to evacuate the crowd.
> 
> But a minute later, when WLHK program director Bob Richards addressed the crowd, the word was that the show would go on, and that the crowd should be prepared to find shelter if things changed. Some of the crowd sensed the danger and left without further word. But the majority remained.


----------



## JD

Having been in the industry since the early 70s, I can say that the number of these types on incidents has increased. A large part of this has to do with show expectations. As mentioned earlier, people want to see the same thing outdoors that they would see in an indoor arena. Also, stage expectations have changed. Gone are the open frame stages with no roof (1960's) built from scaffold towers that took a week or more to set up. (Not that they were free from disaster!) The modern stage often is draped on all sides, and includes a roof. All of these things act like giant sails. However, in this case, wind speeds were clocked at 60 to 70 mph so I am not sure any temporary structure would have been 100% safe. Although rigs are designed well to handle vertical loads, the horizontal and diagonal loading caused by a storm becomes very hard to predict. 

In any case, this comes on the heels of the collapse at the Cheap Trick concert in Canada. It may be time for a review of what industry expectations are for holding outside events, as well as how hard people (promoters, etc.) push back against cancellations. Surly, the prediction of a storm such as was seen on radar should qualify as a reason to cancel, or at least delay and clear the grounds until it passes.


----------



## JohnHuntington

It looks like I'm going to be on the Weatherbrains podcast tomorrow night, asking questions of the meteorologists on the show about what we, as crew members, should be looking out for in severe weather.

My current question list includes what should we, as non-meteorologists, look for on radar? (gust fronts, bow echoes, etc) What about cloud conditions, sudden temperature shifts, etc?

Any other questions I should ask?

Thanks!

John


----------



## JD

Boy, for seven years my wife and I ran a church carnival. We would have the radar on in the office every night and check it every few minutes. Sometimes, you would see a strong storm coming and it would fall apart right as it came in the area. Other times, something would boil up out of nothing right in front of us. This one looked like it was building as compared to dissipating and there were warnings out. Somebody held off pulling the plug. I am sure they were under a lot of pressure and that's when objectivity gets lost.


----------



## JohnHuntington

JD said:


> Sometimes, you would see a strong storm coming and it would fall apart right as it came in the area. Other times, something would boil up out of nothing right in front of us.


 
That's an excellent point. I've seen that over and over. 

The answer, probably, is that you'd have to look at an atmospheric sounding (or projected sounding) or CAPE (Convective Available Potential Energy) to see if conditions are favorable for storm development. And, then, suddenly, you need to hire a meteorologist 

John


----------



## MNicolai

JohnHuntington said:


> And, then, suddenly, you need to hire a meteorologist



You may have been joking around, but that's actually not a bad idea. When I've done small outdoor events (1200 people attending), we've always been able to call our local NWS office or a local news channel to talk to a meteorologist. Days in advance, they'll talk in detail about their forecasts for the event day, and then the day of, they can be a valuable resource for determining whether to cancel or not.


----------



## mstaylor

We used to build a Mountain Stage at a certain venue that decided to build a permanent stage. It is still a roof system but you have no ability to drop the roof in weather. The company says not to move the roof in over 20 MPH winds. It has hard guys that X tower to tower that have to be removed before moving it. I can't see it moving in less than three hours notice.


----------



## JohnHuntington

MNicolai said:


> You may have been joking around, but that's actually not a bad idea. When I've done small outdoor events (1200 people attending), we've always been able to call our local NWS office or a local news channel to talk to a meteorologist. Days in advance, they'll talk in detail about their forecasts for the event day, and then the day of, they can be a valuable resource for determining whether to cancel or not.


 
Oh, absolutely, I think that's a great idea. Events I have worked on have been in communication with the local NWS office. 

My point was mostly that (and I say this after taking two college-level meteorology courses in recent years) the weather gets really complex really fast, and knowing whether or not a line of storms will hold together takes some serious forecasting chops. Mike Smith was working for a client in the area of the the Indianapolis tragedy at the same time and made this prediction:

> This event was predictable. Our team at AccuWeather Enterprise Solutions was monitoring the weather for a client near the Fairgrounds. We issued a warning for 60 mph winds at 8:23pm EDT valid from 8:45 until 9:25pm. According to the National Weather Service's preliminary report, the collapse occurred between 8:50 and 8:55pm.



Personally, I would be pushing to postpone any show when under a severe warning as a general policy. 

John


----------



## MNicolai

With that information, is 30 minutes enough time to get the truss spot ops down, the roof lowered, and crew/performers/audience evacuated?

Should they have cancelled earlier than that?

Is that perhaps the right time to cancel (@ 8:23p when the warning went out), but at that point is the only appropriate action to abandon ship without trying to save the structure?


----------



## JohnHuntington

MNicolai said:


> With that information, is 30 minutes enough time to get the truss spot ops down, the roof lowered, and crew/performers/audience evacuated?
> 
> Should they have cancelled earlier than that?
> 
> Is that perhaps the right time to cancel (@ 8:23p when the warning went out), but at that point is the only appropriate action to abandon ship without trying to save the structure?


 
I wasn't there, and am totally speculating, but the press reports, collated from a State Police timeline, showed that a State Police officer was monitoring the storm on his smartphone. They didn't have access to the paid services from Accuweather, and I haven't read any reports showing that they had any more info than what was on the smartphone. I've tried to chase storms from the radar on my Android and it's basically worthless--too coarse and too slow data. (I run GRLevel2 and pay for hi-res data.) And, Accuweather reports that the taxpayer-funded National Weather Service had issued a (free) severe warning for the area:

> The NWS issued a severe thunderstorm warning for Marion County in Indiana at 8:39 p.m. EDT that was to expire at 9:45 p.m. EDT. The warning was updated at 8:58 p.m. EDT to state that the thunderstorms would be at the state fairgrounds around 9:20 p.m. EDT



(There's still some confusion for me with the time line--does anyone know exactly what time the collapse took place? In any case, the area was under a severe watch so they should have been watching closely)

The SPC says:

> The term severe thunderstorm refers to a thunderstorm producing hail that is at least quarter size, 1 inch in diameter or larger, and/or wind gusts to 58 mph or greater, and/or a tornado.


 None of those things would be good for a show. So I guess my general policy would be when a severe-warned storm is 0-30 minutes away, I would stop the show, get anyone out of the rigging, clear the stage and move the audience away from the stage. 

On a big stage, it's probably impractical at that point to lower the roof, especially with high winds on the way, and that all means that they need areas of refuge, and I saw the Fair director on TV this morning saying that they announced three areas for the audience. The crew and the performers also need something though...

John


----------



## JohnHuntington

JohnHuntington said:


> The NWS issued a severe thunderstorm warning for Marion County in Indiana at 8:39 p.m. EDT that was to expire at 9:45 p.m. EDT. The warning was updated at 8:58 p.m. EDT to state that the thunderstorms would be at the state fairgrounds around 9:20 p.m. EDT



Indystar.com puts the collapse at 8:44pm. That only gave them about five minutes to act. But since the whole area was already under watch conditions, the warning should not have come as a surprise.

John


----------



## zmb

Perhaps, considering that buildings have to meet certain requirements in the number of exits, time to exit, alarm systems and more, that outdoor stages should have more ridgid requirements on time for breaking one down and time to evacuate the area during severe weather.


----------



## Jamie

I have worked with MidAmerica Sound in the past and actually put up this roof twice - Local 30 is great and all safety measures were followed in terms of guy wires, etc. One year I was working this stage, there was some bad wind and the mesh scrim being used as a back drop was lowered immediately.

By the looks of the photos, events are just trying to throw arena shows under tents with the consequences being more events as this.


----------



## JD

MNicolai said:


> With that information, is 30 minutes enough time to get the truss spot ops down, the roof lowered, and crew/performers/audience evacuated?
> 
> Should they have cancelled earlier than that?
> 
> Is that perhaps the right time to cancel (@ 8:23p when the warning went out), but at that point is the only appropriate action to abandon ship without trying to save the structure?


 
I don't think there would have been enough time to do everything, but fair warning should have first gone to the truss spot ops so they could get down. You can always delay the start of the show a few minutes to get them back in position if all is clear. Always a bit of a fog on any story, but my understanding so far is that one was killed and several badly injured. I wonder how many on the crew really got the heads up on what was coming, and how many were killed or injured because they were trying to protect the stage and equipment thinking it was a much smaller storm then it was.


----------



## len

sdauditorium said:


> It said evacuations had been started before the collapse, but it makes you wonder if they delayed it longer than necessary. Unless this storm cell developed a short radius from the fairgrounds and didn't give them time to evacuate, they likely had a fair amount of warning time.


 
Actually, it said they made announcements of what to do IF an evacuation was necessary, but no one said to clear.

And from the youtube video, does it look to anyone else like the downstage right supports were leaning for several seconds before the rest gave way? 

Regardless, another terrible failure.


----------



## JohnHuntington

The Weather Channel is on scene now, and, amazingly, it looks like the SL PA tower is still standing...


----------



## mstaylor

My thought was even if you were going to try to pull the show off, why send spot ops up in the roof? You just cut them and deal with not having that effect. I had a LD want me to climb a roof to refocus during lightning, I told her to pack sand. I would go up if it stopped but no way was I going in the air on a huge lightning rod. She was much put out over but as the boss I get to make that call.


----------



## MNicolai

mstaylor said:


> ...but as the boss I get to make that call.



The fact that you were the boss is irrelevant IMO. The reason you get to make that call is more importantly because you are the potential lightning rod.

There are a lot of people who end up in bad situations because they let their boss or someone else they're working with do their thinking for them. One of the most dangerous character flaws a person can have is when they lack the confidence to tell someone they're not comfortable performing work they've been told to do -- generally for fear of being a disappointment, of being "wrong", or for fear of being fired.

Those fears could be completely irrational and the person in charge might completely understand someone is not comfortable doing the work, but that does not change the fact that in a lot of people, that fear exists and exerts a very real pressure on people to work beyond their comfort zones.

On the other hand, those fears could be very rational and someone could get fired or reprimanded for refusing to do work.


----------



## mstaylor

I agree it happens all the time. The way I have always worked is if there is wind, rain or other factors that makes something more dangerous, I ask the guys if they are comfortable doing it. I deem it unsafe where I wouldn't do it, I don't my guys to do it. If it is borderline and I am OK with it, I give them the option. The last thing you do is put a guy in the air doing something that he thinks is beyond his ability. Everybody's line is different so it needs to be defined.


----------



## FMEng

JohnHuntington said:


> It looks like I'm going to be on the Weatherbrains podcast tomorrow night, asking questions of the meteorologists on the show about what we, as crew members, should be looking out for in severe weather.
> 
> My current question list includes what should we, as non-meteorologists, look for on radar? (gust fronts, bow echoes, etc) What about cloud conditions, sudden temperature shifts, etc?
> 
> Any other questions I should ask?
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> John


 
Ask about NWS SAME radios. You aren't a meteorologist so leave the weather warnings to the pros who have the responsibility to do so. If I were the producer, your opinion on what you see on your iPhone wouldn't mean squat, nor should it. 

Besides, nobody crewing a show is going to have the time to look at weather radar every few minutes. That's where the SAME radio comes in. No one has to pay close attention to it unless its siren goes off.

There is also a big liability issue here. People can get hurt during an evacuation and, as we've seen, they can get hurt from not evacuating when they should. You cannot take that upon yourself. I could see a venue putting a statement in the contract that when the NWS issues a warning for that place and time, the show stops immediately. That would keep the decision out of the hands of people that might tend to put money ahead of safety.


----------



## JohnHuntington

FMEng said:


> Ask about NWS SAME radios. You aren't a meteorologist so leave the weather warnings to the pros who have the responsibility to do so. If I were the producer, your opinion on what you see on your iPhone wouldn't mean squat, nor should it. Besides, nobody crewing a show is going to have the time to look at weather radar every few minutes.



I already know about SAME radios; I have a portable one I take on shows. But many people don't even understand the difference between a watch and a warning, so a SAME Radio would be worthless to them. I know that people got annoyed because mine used to go off all the time. That's the kind of thing I'm talking about helping to clear up.

I run a high res radar program (GRLevel2) on the same laptop while I'm running SMAART and Galileo processing control software. It shows polygon-based NWS warnings within seconds of them being issued. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see a line of storms coming toward us and a red box showing that the storm is severe warned and the projected path is heading for the event site. I'd rather know even before the producer calls the event so I can be ready.

But in any case, I'm running it for me and my crew, not the producer. The producer has to make their own decision, and assume any liability for crowd evacuation. But an informed crew member might help guide the producer to a better decision. And, we often are working (load in/out) when they may not even be around, or a PA is left to babysit. 

John


----------



## JohnHuntington

JohnHuntington said:


> I know that people got annoyed because mine used to go off all the time.



Oh, one other issue with SAME radios--the alerts are county based. Here in NYC, that's not a big deal since we have several counties within a few miles. But let's say, for example, you have a tornado in Springfield, MA (which happened earlier this year). Springfield is in Hampden county. But let's say you are doing an event in Holyoke, MA a few miles north, but has the same SAME code--the weather radio alerts again and again but only rain falls. Next time, they ignore the warning.

The NWS issues polygon-based warnings that are much more informative. You can get them on the NWS web sites or in programs like GRLevel, Weathertap, etc.

John


----------



## mstaylor

I was looking at the Local 30 site and there are pictures of the same stage from 2006. The guys are X guys on the towers. I don't if that affects the ability to bring the roof down, I would assume it has to but I am not sure.


----------



## FMEng

JohnHuntington said:


> Oh, one other issue with SAME radios--the alerts are county based. Here in NYC, that's not a big deal since we have several counties within a few miles. But let's say, for example, you have a tornado in Springfield, MA (which happened earlier this year). Springfield is in Hampden county. But let's say you are doing an event in Holyoke, MA a few miles north, but has the same SAME code--the weather radio alerts again and again but only rain falls. Next time, they ignore the warning.
> 
> The NWS issues polygon-based warnings that are much more informative. You can get them on the NWS web sites or in programs like GRLevel, Weathertap, etc.
> 
> John


 
The SAME standard allows for counties to be divided into 9 sections. However, the NWS generally doesn't use it because it just isn't practical to be that precise. We need to recongnize that reliance on any forecast will often lead to situations where the anticipated severe weather does not materialize. A lay person attempting to drill down the data for more precision will lead to failures to take action in advance of severe weather that does materialize.

Again, leave this to the professionals. If an event warrants more precision than you can get from public warnings, then the even needs to contract with one of the private weather forecasting companies.


----------



## derekleffew

Some years ago, when I worked outdoor attractions involving flame effects, pyrotechnics, and water effects (Mr. Huntington may well remember this), it was my job to print the "official" forecast from the NWS at the start of each shift. We also had multiple installed anemometers, and in one case, a full hobbyist local weather station (no radar). 

But the best predictor was common sense. We'd look to see how much the palm trees were moving. These were free shows, if one were canceled there'd be the possibility of another in 60-90 minutes, so not quite the same responsibility, but I like to think we always erred on the side of caution. We canceled approximately 15% of the shows due to weather. I'm not sure if SAME radios were available then (we did have a "weather radio") or smartphones would have had any effect on our procedures.


----------



## JohnHuntington

A storm chaser in the area has some video of gustnados on the front, not too far from the venue:
[video]http://youtu.be/JMwgG7WG4S8[/video]


----------



## JohnHuntington

derekleffew said:


> Some years ago, when I worked outdoor attractions involving flame effects, pyrotechnics, and water effects (Mr. Huntington may well remember this), it was my job to print the "official" forecast from the NWS at the start of each shift. We also had multiple installed anemometers, and in one case, a full hobbyist local weather station (no radar).
> 
> But the best predictor was common sense. We'd look to see how much the palm trees were moving. These were free shows, if one were canceled there'd be the possibility of another in 60-90 minutes, so not quite the same responsibility, but I like to think we always erred on the side of caution. We canceled approximately 15% of the shows due to weather. I'm not sure if SAME radios were available then (we did have a "weather radio") or smartphones would have had any effect on our procedures.


 
I certainly remember that attraction! 

And I apparently disagree with Mr. FMEng--I think a well informed crew is always a good thing. The lack of information and/or knowledge seems far more dangerous to me.

John


----------



## gafftapegreenia

Just thought I'd post the link to the lengthy post on Jim on Light. 
Indiana State Fair Stage Collapse, Five Dead. Now What? | Jim On Light


----------



## MistressRach

No new info here, but I thought this was an interesting write up from a primarily meteorological standpoint.
Indiana stage collapse: was it preventable? - Capital Weather Gang - The Washington Post


----------



## Pie4Weebl

MistressRach said:


> No new info here, but I thought this was an interesting write up from a primarily meteorological standpoint.
> Indiana stage collapse: was it preventable? - Capital Weather Gang - The Washington Post


 
I'm frustrated by people who are over reacting and posting mindless crap:

> meteorologist and blogger Jim La Due concludes the stage was “a ‘house of cards’, in other words, a flimsy metal scaffolding frame supporting a huge area of fabric facing the wind”.



Yeah, a weather man blogging about what he thinks of out door stages, what a valid source!


----------



## Footer

Pie4Weebl said:


> I'm frustrated by people who are over reacting and posting mindless crap:
> 
> 
> Yeah, a weather man blogging about what he thinks of out door stages, what a valid source!


 
At least the media is picking it up and is now really starting to look at it as an actual incident instead of a "fluke".


----------



## shiben

Pie4Weebl said:


> I'm frustrated by people who are over reacting and posting mindless crap:
> 
> 
> Yeah, a weather man blogging about what he thinks of out door stages, what a valid source!


 
Well, over on LN a lot of people are basically saying that an outdoor stage is inherently dangerous, and need special handling that almost no one uses when they get set up. Lots of talk about installed anchor points, engineering inspections, go/no-go authority, etc.


----------



## MistressRach

Pie4Weebl said:


> I'm frustrated by people who are over reacting and posting mindless crap:
> 
> 
> Yeah, a weather man blogging about what he thinks of out door stages, what a valid source!


True, he was speaking outside of his area of expertise, but the article does go on to state that if changes need to be made it's to risk communication procedures and not to the stages. The overall tone was not blaming the stage or rigging, but failures in communication and how to prevent them in the future.


----------



## Pie4Weebl

shiben said:


> Well, over on LN a lot of people are basically saying that an outdoor stage is inherently dangerous, and need special handling that almost no one uses when they get set up. Lots of talk about installed anchor points, engineering inspections, go/no-go authority, etc.


 Yeah, I've seen all the armchair engineers over there.


----------



## shiben

Pie4Weebl said:


> I'm frustrated by people who are over reacting and posting mindless crap:
> 
> 
> Yeah, a weather man blogging about what he thinks of out door stages, what a valid source!


 
And i mean the dude is sort of right. I dont care how strong you make it, you still have a very large piece of fabric on top of some very thin towers, and wind is incredibly powerful. The fact that most of the discussion on LN involves "why was it not lowered" Indicates to me that it is indeed a house of cards in the up position, really not designed for such high wind speed.


----------



## DuckJordan

I've said it before but I'll say it again. Why not put release points for the roof fabric. To me there would have been a lot less force applied to the stage had the roof been able to quickly and safely been "canvased", I can't be the first one to think this and to me it screams improvement. Why is the industry so stubborn against changes? While, I may be over reacting a bit I feel that there shouldn't be an issue with adding a simple release mechanism to the tarp.


----------



## rochem

DuckJordan said:


> I've said it before but I'll say it again. Why not put release points for the roof fabric. To me there would have been a lot less force applied to the stage had the roof been able to quickly and safely been "canvased", I can't be the first one to think this and to me it screams improvement. Why is the industry so stubborn against changes? While, I may be over reacting a bit I feel that there shouldn't be an issue with adding a simple release mechanism to the tarp.


 
The discussion about this incident on the SML is approaching 100 emails, and this very question has been brought up a number of times. Not to say that we can't/shouldn't discuss it here, but there are some very interesting points being raised over there that you (or others) might find interesting.


----------



## Footer

I was contacted by the AP this morning along with a few other CB members. The reporter was asking specific questions pertaining to how the industry is viewing this incident and what standards body does the industry follow. Here is the article: Safety questions loom over Indiana stage collapse - Boston.com 

Its being carried nationally.


----------



## len

DuckJordan said:


> I've said it before but I'll say it again. Why not put release points for the roof fabric. To me there would have been a lot less force applied to the stage had the roof been able to quickly and safely been "canvased", I can't be the first one to think this and to me it screams improvement. Why is the industry so stubborn against changes? While, I may be over reacting a bit I feel that there shouldn't be an issue with adding a simple release mechanism to the tarp.


Makes sense, but what happens to that fabric/plastic/canvas once it's released. It goes flying over onto the crowd? I doubt you'll get too may people liking that, either.


----------



## DuckJordan

A few unhappy possibly minor injuries compared to a major collapse with major injuries and possibly death? I'll go with the pissed off people...

Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk


----------



## Footer

DuckJordan said:


> A few unhappy possibly minor injuries compared to a major collapse with major injuries and possibly death? I'll go with the pissed off people...
> 
> Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk


 
Until it hits the ferris wheel, knocking that over and taking out the building of 4H kids staying inside protecting their prized pigs. There is no perfect solution. 

And speaking of ferris wheels... with this storm you heard no word of anything on the midway or any other issues at the fair. So, a 100' tall ferris wheel... that is portable... and put together by carnies stayed together but the stage put together by stagehands fell apart? Really, we can't do better then carnies? With this it might be time to consider stagehands rank in the world compared to carnies.


----------



## techieman33

Footer said:


> Until it hits the ferris wheel, knocking that over and taking out the building of 4H kids staying inside protecting their prized pigs. There is no perfect solution.
> 
> And speaking of ferris wheels... with this storm you heard no word of anything on the midway or any other issues at the fair. So, a 100' tall ferris wheel... that is portable... and put together by carnies stayed together but the stage put together by stagehands fell apart? Really, we can't do better then carnies? With this it might be time to consider stagehands rank in the world compared to carnies.


 
The ferris wheel doesn't have a giant sail either


----------



## gafftapegreenia

Now if you're gonna call em carnies you might as well start callin' em roadies and techies. 

But yes, point made.


----------



## Footer

techieman33 said:


> The ferris wheel doesn't have a giant sail either


 
Because if it did... it would tip over. Once again, the carnies got us on that one. I'm sure they would love to use all that space to advertise 9 dollar slices of pizza.

You put giant sails into the sky, the sky is going to play with them.


----------



## chausman

gafftapegreenia said:


> Now if you're gonna call em carnies you might as well start callin' em roadies and techies.
> 
> But yes, point made.



And speaking of ferris wheels... with this storm you heard no word of anything on the midway or any other issues at the fair. So, a 100' tall ferris wheel... that is portable... and put together by [-]carnies[/-]a traveling fair crew stayed together but the stage put together by stagehands fell apart? Really, we can't do better then [-]carnies[/-] a traveling fair crew? With this it might be time to consider stagehands rank in the world compared to [-]carnies[/-]a traveling fair crew.




---
- Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## MrsFooter

chausman said:


> And speaking of ferris wheels... with this storm you heard no word of anything on the midway or any other issues at the fair. So, a 100' tall ferris wheel... that is portable... and put together by [-]carnies[/-]a traveling fair crew stayed together but the stage put together by stagehands fell apart? Really, we can't do better then [-]carnies[/-] a traveling fair crew? With this it might be time to consider stagehands rank in the world compared to [-]carnies[/-]a traveling fair crew.




Really, guys? THIS is what we're arguing over? We have a real opportunity to have a conversation about safety and the responsibilities involved in keeping both crew and audience safe and we're arguing over whether "carny" is PC?

The real question we need to be discussing is how this horrible tragedy that ended in five deaths is going to affect or change the way we do outdoor shows in order to prevent things like this happening in the future?


----------



## gafftapegreenia

"funfair employee"

Anyway, sorry to take that off topic. Back to topic.

If I haven't said it already, this entire event makes me more angry than it does sad, and it makes me pretty sad. What are we, as an industry, going to do about it, after we are doing pointing fingers and playing armchair engineer?


----------



## mstaylor

It says that the roof was able to move up and down. I am still not sure that is entirely true. With a video wall or sound hung on the wings, I can't see it coming down. That is the downside to the Thomas type roofs. With a Mountain Stage, the video wall can still make bringing the roof impossible, the footprint is so much bigger it can withstand much more weather. It still is necessary to open scrims and condoms. 
The decision to send the spot ops up was rediculous. Even if you wanted to ride the weather, you don't put guys in the air. I think promotors need to have in festival settings. better awareness of what they are asking guys to do. Also acts need to be more willing to pare their shows down


----------



## shiben

gafftapegreenia said:


> "funfair employee"
> 
> Anyway, sorry to take that off topic. Back to topic.
> 
> If I haven't said it already, this entire event makes me more angry than it does sad, and it makes me pretty sad. What are we, as an industry, going to do about it, after we are doing pointing fingers and playing armchair engineer?


 
Now I am not an engineer or anything, but I was having a beer with a good friend and mentor today at a restaurant with outdoor seating. The umbrella had venting to prevent IT from flying off when the wind gusted. Now Im just guessing (again, not an expert) that something like that might be able to be engineered for a stage roof? I cant even imagine how much it costs to have a stage collapse in the first place (in terms of damaged gear and whatnot), much less people dying. Would some thought not be placed into making it not collapse in the event of a freak storm? I guess this confuses me, even say you get a micro-burst or something, actually get freak weather, would the cost of replacing a giant thing like that not have justified in the past making these things easy to vent wind? I guess if umbrella makers are doing it to save a cheap bar umbrella, I would have thought a very expensive stage would have been a top priority...


----------



## David Ashton

As the roofs are giant sails, might it not be sensible to adapt some very old and proven technology, namely the roller furling sail system to stage roofs, having sat out a hurricane in the Atlantic using sail furlers I can say they are simple, cheap, quick and reliable as a method to reduce the sail area.They could be easily modified to be operated off 12 batteries so as to be usable even with power failure situations,Should I patent this idea?


----------



## zmb

Do portable stages come with a set of conditions that can't be exceeded like wind speed in this case?


----------



## Techfiend

Thomas Engineering (the type of room it was) has specs as to how the roof should be set up, secured and all the load/wind bearing the structure can take. The company I work for during the summer has several Thomas Roofs, not quite as large as this one, but one of our guys rattles off numbers about the roofs all the time, so the information is somewhere.

As far as the roof being able to move, besides the PA/video wall. If you look at some of the up close pictures of the towers you can see 2 roller beams on a tower making a cross. The lower one is for the chain motor when lifting/raising, the upper appears to be a heavy yellow ratchet strap. As per Thomas when the roof is at height it is to be secured with a strap as a safety. This would make lowering the roof impossible until the straps were removed.

From Thomas' Tower instructions
13. Once the rig is at show trim a safety should be fitted. A 2000 - 3000 Kg (4000- 6614 LBS)
truck ratchet strap or spanset is suitable (unless fireworks or pyro are used). This must be
fitted tightly around the top of the roller beam and the sleeve block. Any slack could result in
the safety being ineffective; in the event of a chain failure, the block would drop before any
weight would be taken.


----------



## Footer

zmb said:


> Do portable stages come with a set of conditions that can't be exceeded like wind speed in this case?


 
Yes. However, without knowing every piece of gear that is going in the air, how those pieces of gear interact with the structure, and the direction of wind etc there is really not an easy way to say what the wind load is that the structure can safely take. I am sure you could do that in a computer model with just the roof sitting on a flat field. I'm sure there are engineers building an exact model of the structure with everything hanging right now to do simulations to figure out exactly what happened and why. Just like designing a stage deck you always have to be prepared for the worst case scenario. Someone can always drive a genie lift across the stage, so you either need to do two things: prevent that from happening or build strong enough to take the weight.

This is a brief writeup on this roof giving you size and weight handling capabilitys: 

> For the 150th anniversary of the Indiana State Fair Mid-America Sound needed to upgrade our 80’x60’ Thomas Supertruss roof to handle this years grandstand shows. The lineup included Brad Paisley, Big and Rich, Kid Rock, American Idol Live tour, Kanye West and Rascal Flatts.
> The acts performing at the fair this year required trim heights of 50’or more. The ability to support 8,000 lb video walls in the center of the structure was also needed.
> Rigging plots and some ideas were sent to Mike Garl at James Thomas Engineering. With very minor modifications we were able to achieve the height and weight capabilities that were necessary.
> “Rascal Flatts was the largest and heaviest rig coming through” said Bob Williams-Lighting Director and project chief for the roof. “With over 50 points and a total weight above 60,000lbs between lights, video and sound it was an interesting challenge, but Mike Garl and the rest of JTE came through as usual for us”.



I'm in no way saying that what this company was doing was unsafe. They worked with the manufacture to add capabilities to the roof. This write up does however give you some scale to the size of show they were putting in.


----------



## BillESC

What's wrong with this picture?


----------



## len

zmb said:


> Do portable stages come with a set of conditions that can't be exceeded like wind speed in this case?


 
Yes, it's part of the training, and it's in the manual for the roof. One set of questions will be what the maximum recommended weather conditions were, did anyone know about the pending weather, when did they know about them, and if they did, why didn't they act? 

Another big legal issue will be whether the stage had more weight on it than was recommended, and again, did anyone know, and what did they do to make sure it wasn't overloaded. 

I'm not saying any of that was the case, but they're certainly questions to be asked. I met the guys and Mid-America a few years ago, and they seemed really competent to me. Anyone who knows the Thomas name knows they build quality products. 

But one thing I have learned from watching those disaster shows on the history channel is that massive failures typically don't come from one error/failure. There are often a bunch of seemingly unrelated errors/failures that compound into a massive problem. 
It's a tragedy and we should all stop and reflect on the risks we take in this business. Some info on one of the dead: Health center mourns staffer killed in Indiana State Fair stage accident - Chicago Tribune


----------



## bullseye

Len,
I have to agree with you with regard to small errors becoming one massive failure. The forces being placed on that structure were far pass anything that was rated for. The roof fabric gave way and at that point people should have been egressing pronto. I only wonder what damage was done to the structure from the forces on the roof and how it compromised the rest os the trussing. Also, if you look at the pics and videos, the scrim was turned into a giant sail and tugging at numerous points, granted it is a permeable fabric, but it is not 100 percent, there is some resistance, especially at 70 mph or more wind gusts, that should have been cut loose or dropped. The stage left line array was turning and blowing in the wind, additional forces on a bad situation. 
I have been working in the industry for 30+ years and every outdoor gig brings potential hazards that are not present at indoor venues. John, I also have my laptop up and running with accuweather and a local weather station wherever I'm at outdoors, it has saved my gear and perhaps lives with advanced warning. Sprint 4G card gives me internet everywhere.
As stated before, the producers of these shows are putting dollars before safety, make the artist happy and bring in he big bucks. Those spot ops should NEVER have been given the green light to go up there, just with lightning in the area, never mind the wind.
Yes, this appears to have been a perfect storm that brewed with a combination of failures and unfortunate decisions. Only time will tell with a thorough investigation, in the meantime, lets all pray for those lost and their families and hope for a speedy recovery for those injured.


----------



## MNicolai

So as a jury of industry peers, what do each of you consider appropriate consequences for the promoters/fair/associated-peoples knowing what we presently know about the collapse?


----------



## Esoteric

BillESC said:


> What's wrong with this picture?


 
Wow, did those to SL towers completely shear their bolts?


----------



## derekleffew

Esoteric said:


> Wow, did those to SL towers completely shear their bolts?


All of the visible Stage Left towers look intact to me.


----------



## Footer

MNicolai said:


> So as a jury of industry peers, what do each of you consider appropriate consequences for the promoters/fair/associated-peoples knowing what we presently know about the collapse?


 
Should not even comment on that one. First, we realy don't know much right now. Second, that is for the courts to decide. Because this was on state grounds and partially/mostly funded with state money there are going to be some weird things that are going to happen liability wise. 


Esoteric said:


> Wow, did those to SL towers completely shear their bolts?



SR tower, and yes, it appears thats what happened. Breaking grade 8 truss bolts is no small feat.


----------



## derekleffew

Footer said:


> ...SR tower, and yes, it appears thats what happened. Breaking grade 8 truss bolts is no small feat.


It's impossible to tell from the photo, but I suspect the end plates pulled out. The bolts are stronger than the aluminum alloy ± 1/4" thick plates and their welds.


Ground Support Tower- James Thomas Engineering


----------



## SteveB

Here's what was in today's NY Times.


"Even as the metal rigging high above a packed concert here began to shudder, Indiana State Fair officials were walking toward the stage, preparing, they said, to order the crowd to evacuate to avoid an arriving storm. 

“We were en route,” Cynthia Hoye, the fair’s executive director, recalled on Monday, after a somber memorial service to remember the five people who died and dozens of others who were hurt on Saturday night when the overhead rigging collapsed during the state fair show.

“All of the sudden the wind picked up,” said Ms. Hoye, who never made it to the stage before what she and others here described as a devastating, isolated wind gust of more than 60 miles per hour.

As several state agencies, including the offices of the attorney general and the fire marshal and the Indiana Occupational Safety and Health Administration, tried to determine the cause of the accident and whether structural problems on the stage had played a role, some here, including survivors of the collapse, questioned why fair officials had not ordered the crowd of 12,000 to leave.

“I do have a concern that anyone sitting in front of a weather radar would have known that there was no way this was going to pass us by,” said Robert Klinestiver, a doctor who had been waiting in the front row with his 12-year-old daughter for the country duo Sugarland to take the stage after 8:30 p.m.

The skies had already grown eerily dark, but when the air grew blurry with swirling dirt, a large blue tarp began ripping on the giant rigging, and a strange sound of crumpling metal began emerging, Dr. Klinestiver grabbed his daughter and ran. Part of the structure hit the ground two feet from them, he said. The legs of someone just behind them were trapped beneath the fallen rigging, and, as people shrieked and cried and searched for relatives, Dr. Klinestiver and others began desperately trying to free scores of people.

State officials said their investigation could take weeks, but officials at the fair, which has been a tradition here for more than 150 years and draws 50,000 visitors on an average day, defended their handling of the storm threat. In a building not far from the stage, they said that all evening a contingent of officials — including a meteorologist — had been monitoring the weather, which had, since before 6 p.m., included a severe thunderstorm watch from the National Weather Service. Over the next few hours, the fair staff contacted the Weather Service at least four times, a report issued by the Indiana State Police said.

Minutes before the accident, as the crowd waited for Sugarland to take the stage after a warm-up act, an announcement was made warning that a storm was approaching that might delay the show and that shelter was available in three nearby facilities.

Some people left. But the announcement was not an order to evacuate. So, with no rain falling, others stayed put, particularly Sugarland’s most devoted fans, those closest to the front of the stage in an area called the Sugarpit — the site of some of the worst damage soon afterward.

Andy Klotz, a spokesman for the fair, described the sequence of events this way: At 8:39 p.m., the Weather Service upgraded the storm threat in Marion County, where Indianapolis is, to a severe thunderstorm warning from a watch; at 8:45 p.m., a local radio host who was making announcements on stage told the audience that an arriving storm might delay the show and named three shelters; and, at 8:49 p.m., as Ms. Hoye and a State Police official were approaching the stage to call for a formal evacuation for a storm that they believed was at least 25 minutes away, the rigging collapsed.

“Could we have stopped the show? Yes,” Mr. Klotz said. “But you don’t want to overreact. And you don’t want to underreact.”

The fair, which runs until Sunday, reopened on Monday after being closed for a day after the accident. The mood here — usually one of summer cheer and carefree eating — was subdued. Some events were canceled; others meant to take place on the large stage were moved. People stood along yellow police tape staring at the cordoned-off stage, which remained as it had landed on Saturday night, a frightening crush of metal.

On a different, smaller stage on the other side of the fair, the day began with a somber memorial. A bouquet of flowers was carried on stage for each of the five who were killed, which included a teacher, a programming manager, a mother, a father and a stagehand.

“We come today with hearts that are broken but also hearts that are full,” Gov. Mitch Daniels told the silent crowd as helicopters circled overhead.

In so much horror, Mr. Daniels said, many in the crowd had instantly and instinctively turned back to try to save others. “There was a hero every 10 feet on Saturday night.”

David Wood, who had been among those near the front of the concert stage and had escaped the falling rigging, came back to the fair on Monday and stood, scanning the teary crowd.

On Saturday, Mr. Wood had helped a young girl — maybe 2 or 4 years old — whose arm had a severe gash, he said. In the dark chaos of that night, he had used clothing for a tourniquet, and then passed the girl, whose mother was covered in blood, along to emergency workers.

“I’m just hoping she came out O.K.,” said Mr. Wood, who did not spot the girl or her family in the crowd. “I was hoping I could get an answer here.”


----------



## willbb123

The Weather Channel just came out with a statement stating the gust was not a "fluke event." 

Indianapolis Tragedy Not a Fluke - weather.com


> A "fluke" by definition is an unlikely chance occurrence. The destructive and deadly wind gust on Saturday evening in Indianapolis was no chance occurrence.


----------



## MNicolai

Rephrase: Do you believe a crime has been committed, and if so, what would you call it?

I think that is a significant question, because if we as an industry are going to really address these problems, be they in structural integrity of outdoor stages, in the line of communication for event staff, or in emergency preparedness, there needs to be a name that we can call this flavor of irresponsibility. That could be negligent homicide, reckless unpreparedness, or something else that carries more weight than "Oopsies!"

Someone attached to this event should have known the structural limitations of the staging, even if that's generally "wind/lightning = bad", and then the meteorologist knows exactly which red flags to watch out for.

There then should be another person who's responsibility is to have potential disaster plans in place who does not become fazed by the "The Show Must Go On" mentality surrounding them if a trigger threshold is reached to initiate an emergency plan.

The moment you put thousands of people in the same place like that, &ldquo;I didn't know it was my job to worry about those sorts of things&rdquo; shouldn't be a get-out-of-jail-free card.


----------



## chausman

MNicolai said:


> Rephrase: Do you believe a crime has been committed, and if so, what would you call it?


 
The article linked to said that when they knew a storm was coming, and that there would be gusts that powerful, you can't just keep going and then later say, it was an un-predictable "fluke". I personally believe that action should have been taken sooner, and I realize they were almost to the stage when it happened, but if you have a meteorologist that could say "theres a *thunderstorm* coming, shouldn't someone be going to remove the giant lightning rod, as soon as they knew something was going wrong?

Someone had mentioned something earlier (DuckJordan I believe, about some kind of system where the roof couldn't have pulled everything down, and I agree that there should be some kind of system in place. What if it was some kind of kabuki drop system, just flipped "upside down" so when the wind was too strong, they could A) push a button, and have the roof no longer attached to the structure, reducing the "sail", or B) have the roof be attached with rip-cords so that when the wind did get too strong, it would simply detach itself. I don't know if that would work, and would probably end up being more complicated (maybe) but would it be worth it?

ps, I like how in all of videos the first night after it fell, everyone was saying scaffolding!


---
- Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## sk8rsdad

MNicolai said:


> Rephrase: Do you believe a crime has been committed, and if so, what would you call it?



Assuming a crime has been committed it would be either criminal negligence causing death (felony) or involuntary manslaughter (misdemeanor). I am neither a lawyer nor do I play one on prime time TV. 

It remains to be determined who would be culpable between the organizers, AHJ, engineers, etc. A lot of things went wrong to get to the point where people died so there is plenty of blame to pass around.


----------



## MrsFooter

sk8rsdad said:


> A lot of things went wrong to get to the point where people died so there is plenty of blame to pass around.



I think you're on to something here. It seems like there were numerous people who had the knowledge and authority at multiple points along the way to step in and pull the plug on this thing, so trying to place full responsibility on a single person will be difficult. The reality is there's probably at least half-dozen people who could have prevented this disaster and failed to do so.


----------



## Van

They were "enroute" to cancel the performance?!?! Anyone heard of Motorola ? I'm not an engineer but I do think Radio waves travel faster than walking speed. I've stayed out of this as I don't do that much outside production work anymore, but ...... Why were the Spot Ops in posistion in the first place? Who in thier right mind would sit in a truss spot with a lightning/thunderstorm approaching? The House stewar should have called them down at the first sgin of lighting. 
Second, someone mentioned a fact that I think we are over looking. paraphrasing here " The public wants the same show they'd see in an arena..." Really ? Do they ? Or have we, as an industry, sold ourselves as being able to bring, " The Arena Experience Outdoors..." I think Outdoor productions of this scale are amazing I think Everyone does but does the Public demand it ? Or are we simply getting biger for the sake of getting bigger ? 
The Titanic was just another shipwreck, it had such a a massive impact on history because it was huge and lot's of people died, it's the proportions. When a Stage this large collapses people are going to be hurt and killed. I'm rather upset at the promoters and the people who should have known better. and I have to agree this warrants and industry-wide look into certain practices. IMHO


----------



## SteveB

The issue of portable/temporary staging structures falling with injuries/deaths a result, goes back at least as far as Brooklyn in the 80's when two lighting trusses went over in a gusty thunderstorm, with the DS truss landing on singer Curtis Mayfield, resulting in his paralysis. 

The issues then were the same now. 

- No authority issuing permits to assure safe practices being followed as to the proper and safe assembly of the structure. This is STILL a problem, as is currently being discovered in Indiana, where the authorities are just now discovering that no authorities that would normally be issuing permits, did so and that the structure falls thru numerous cracks in the legal system (at least in Indiana) in terms of who should be paying attention.

- The difficulty of having 50 states, each with countless local jurisdictions, all potentially enacting separate and varying regulations for the design and installation of portable stages and roofing systems.

- No good planning guides for event managers to follow as to when appropriate decisions should be made, with the attending authority to have those decisions followed. 

- Nobody looking at the designs of these systems carefully enough to assure they will function correctly in adverse weather conditions. Attending this is the creep of system size, with ton's more gear being added to a structure that defeats some of the assumed safety factors, such as a roof that could in theory be lowered, except that the act has hung the line array and video screens, which defeats the safety systems.

It'll be interesting to see where this all leads.


----------



## derekleffew

SteveB said:


> The issue of portable/temporary staging structures falling with injuries/deaths a result, goes back at least as far as Brooklyn in the 80's when two lighting trusses went over in a gusty thunderstorm, with the DS truss landing on singer Curtis Mayfield, resulting in his paralysis. ...


1990 actually. Curtis Mayfield and 6 Others Injured at Brooklyn Concert - New York Times

Anyone know which CB member was named in the lawsuit(s) for having sold the Genie Towers? Perhaps he'll comment.


----------



## mstaylor

Having built many of outdoor stages, I see no easy way to quick release the roof skin. If there is, is it a good idea to have something that big coming loose in that kind of weather? What needs to looked at is what is allowed to be flown on a Tomcat or Thomas style roof. Although a Mountain stage can have it's own set of problems, cost not being the least, it is much more stable than a legged system. A SL 550 will allow a fairly decent rig, but because it has a trailer base it is inherently more stable. I recently used a Brown stage that doesn't allow you to move the roof in over 10 to 15 MPH wind. The scrims are on pulleys to be able to get them down quickly,but you still have the sound and video to deal with. The difference with the Brown roof is the roof is actually tin so you don't have a skin to break loose.


----------



## toproy

JD said:


> Having been in the industry since the early 70s, I can say that the number of these types on incidents has increased. A large part of this has to do with show expectations.
> It may be time for a review of what industry expectations are for holding outside events, as well as how hard people (promoters, etc.) push back against cancellations. Surly, the prediction of a storm such as was seen on radar should qualify as a reason to cancel, or at least delay and clear the grounds until it passes.


 
Sorry this has to be my first post in this forum but I liked so much your input that I had to do it.

I to have been in the industry for a number of years, I started when I was 16, I am 37 now.

And yes, I agree, long gone are those days of Upfront ground supports which were mostly made of heavy steel and only the roof was an Aluminum truss system.

And even then, we had emergency safety procedures to release the tarps in case of heavy winds or rain.

I do not want to say too much because I do not know the producers of this show that ended up in this tragedy and it breaks my heart to think of those truss spot operators. I started my days in the show industry as one of them so I am very well aware of the challenges of that position.

Not knowing much about this particular production and judging only by the video it seems that the storm got them by surprise and it also seems to me that the staging design would not have allowed the roof to be lowered quickly anyway.

I have canceled two concerts in my life, one due to weather and one due to sound equipment problems. So I know it is not an easy choice.

About getting the weather reports... when I produced events with ground supports, no matter the size, I was in contact with the local airport's control tower to get constant updates and make decisions on precisely this very thing.

We also use portable wind socks and portable wind speed sensors, and yes... the rule is clear, when close to the threshold of the engineering design, there are two options, let the tarp blow, or lower the roof. 

I hope we get to know more details.


----------



## toproy

derekleffew said:


> It's impossible to tell from the photo, but I suspect the end plates pulled out. The bolts are stronger than the aluminum alloy ± 1/4" thick plates and their welds.


 
Unless the bolts were not tightened properly or were to old, or washers were not used. 

This is one of the scariest show industry pictures I have ever seen in my life... and I have seen some stuff... 

Man, the thought of being one of those spot ops...


----------



## BillESC

derekleffew said:


> 1990 actually. Curtis Mayfield and 6 Others Injured at Brooklyn Concert - New York Times
> 
> Anyone know which CB member was named in the lawsuit(s) for having sold the Genie Towers? Perhaps he'll comment.



Yes, I was named in the lawsuit, the amount I was sued for was $ 125,000,000.00, because of my "proximity" to the case. You see, I had sold a pair of Genie lifts to the lighting company a few years before the fateful event. The second set of Genies which held the upstage truss that also fell were rented from Bash Lighting who was also named in the suit.

The case against myself and Bash were both thrown out but it took over two years and a lot of attorney fees considering the $ 400.00 profit I made on the original sale.

There are acts of God and there are acts of stupidity. Only one should be actionable. Knowing the difference is the hard part.


----------



## bullseye

I believe that when loads are being calculated the concern is " can a structure safely handle the load" not " can a structure safely handle the loads under X,Y and Z nature induced forces and loads ". There has always been a mindset in this industry that hell ya, we can do that and up it goes, but when you get 40,000-50,000 pounds top heavy on a structure 25-30 ft. ( or more ) up and add those type of winds and a couple sails ( roof and backdrop ), we as an industry really need to go back to the drawing board and rethink our priorities and the methods that we deliver our services. Maybe after all those outdoor show that we have done as an industry, we have caught a bunch of lucky breaks and some not so lucky ones, but we always come back and do it the same way. This time it really hurt.
You go to FACEBOOK and look at "PA OF THE DAY" and you see those rig jobs with speakers hanging from eyehooks and bungee cords, that is irresponsible. What happened here was professional personnel who do a great job day in and day out with a mission to deliver a great show, what happened was a perfect storm of failures and I'm not talking equipment, many things that went wrong all happened at the right time. It really is time to rethink the temporary outdoor concert venue experience.


----------



## toproy

len said:


> Another big legal issue will be whether the stage had more weight on it than was recommended, and again, did anyone know, and what did they do to make sure it wasn't overloaded.
> 
> I'm not saying any of that was the case, but they're certainly questions to be asked. I met the guys and Mid-America a few years ago, and they seemed really competent to me. Anyone who knows the Thomas name knows they build quality products.


 
Thomas are normally heavier but seem better built quality than Tomcat. I do not know where is Thomas made but I know where Tomcat is manufactured and I have even met the owners of the factory in Guadalajara.

That roof does look heavy, it looks like they hanged everything including the kitchen sink.


----------



## Van

Just read this article on CNN

(CNN) -- The Indiana State Fair Commission is hiring New York-based engineering company Thornton Tomasetti Inc. to investigate Saturday's deadly stage collapse, officials said Tuesday.

The final line from the story, however, I take exception with; " "We followed a protocol very directly. It was working. *This was a freakish act of God *and I don't know how it could have been prevented," Klotz said." < emphasis mine>


----------



## Footer

Van said:


> The final line from the story, however, I take exception with; " "We followed a protocol very directly. It was working. *This was a freakish act of God *and I don't know how it could have been prevented," Klotz said." < emphasis mine>


 
Yup. Gods fault. Probably should trust someone else then.


----------



## gafftapegreenia

Even if you DO want to call the wind gust a "freakish act of God", no one should have died. Again, no one should have died. 

Even if it was impossible to lower the roof (due to the tons of PA, screen and truss hanging off of it) within the time frame of the approaching storm, an evacuation should have been ordered. At the very least, the area around the stage, in the "crash zone", should have been cleared. It is CLEAR that there is a dire need for rules that give absolutely authority to someone (who that someone should be, I don't have the experience to say) to make the cancel call. 

For me, this is another classic example of "something bad has to happen before we change our ways", and for me, everyone involved with this stage and this show bears some level of responsibility. Everyone, from the promoters, to the fair organizers, to the state officials, the stage owners, the production company and everyone in between need to reevaluate their methods and determine how they could have acted within the best of their abilities to prevent this.

I remember a few years ago, back at USITT, Bill Sapsis made a comment about truss. He shared an anecdote about a time he needed to obtain engineering information on truss for a certain application. Well, the company was very protective of this information, but eventually, Bill got a clearance. His reaction, and his word to us all, was that if we all knew just how tight the tolerances and engineering were on truss, everyone would stop using it.


----------



## MNicolai

Wow, I just read that post from the meteorologist -- those Weather.com guys are really throwing Gov. Daniels and the Fair in front of the bus:


> Let’s stop bucketing meteorology and weather in general into some magical mystery science that can’t be explained. When a tragic accident due to existing extreme weather conditions occurs, there is a notion to just throw your hands up in the air and say, “well, nothing could have been done to avoid this” or “nobody could have seen this coming” or “it was just a **** fluke”. In many instances, that just simply is not the case and it wasn’t the case in the tragedy at the Indiana State Fairgrounds. Powerful, damaging winds were a known threat several days before and during the minutes leading up to the stage collapse.
> 
> […]
> 
> There are definitive and well-known reasons why hail reaches softball size or a tornado strikes one neighborhood but misses the other or why wind gusts reach 70 mph. This isn’t voodoo, this is meteorology.



It's beginning to sound like the Governor and the Fair organizers are alone in their corner on this issue. The entertainment industry is fed up with how this was handled and so are at least a few meteorologists.

I was shocked yesterday when I looked at my RSS feeds to find post after post after post on the matter, some of which included some less than friendly language. I remember no other events in the last few years that have gotten this many people riled up.

This meteorologist is pretty teed off too, as is this one. Also, this one is pretty miffed too.


----------



## Van

gafftapegreenia said:


> ..... and his word to us all, was that if we all knew just how tight the tolerances and engineering were on truss, everyone would stop using it.


 
Heck I'd be interested to know if all the welds are checked on every peice of trus that leaves the factory. That image of the tower snapped up top really has me thinking. The only way you can explain that is the bolt plate popping and that simply shouldn't happen. Again as stated by several folks I don't think we should 'Arm Chair Quarterback' this issue but do some serious looking into best practices, standards, and guidlines.


----------



## gafftapegreenia

Van said:


> Heck I'd be interested to know if all the welds are checked on every peice of trus that leaves the factory. That image of the tower snapped up top really has me thinking. The only way you can explain that is the bolt plate popping and that simply shouldn't happen. Again as stated by several folks I don't think we should 'Arm Chair Quarterback' this issue but do some serious looking into best practices, standards, and guidlines.



That is quite possibly the most terrifying part of that image. I will be curios to find out: if the welds broke, if the bolts pulled through the plates (and it they had washers on them, then wow), and if the bolts broke. Those are some serious forces at work.


----------



## SteveB

BillESC said:


> Yes, I was named in the lawsuit, the amount I was sued for was $ 125,000,000.00, because of my "proximity" to the case. You see, I had sold a pair of Genie lifts to the lighting company a few years before the fateful event. The second set of Genies which held the upstage truss that also fell were rented from Bash Lighting who was also named in the suit.
> 
> The case against myself and Bash were both thrown out but it took over two years and a lot of attorney fees considering the $ 400.00 profit I made on the original sale.
> 
> There are acts of God and there are acts of stupidity. Only one should be actionable. Knowing the difference is the hard part.



Bill, I had one co-worker that was the SM on that gig, another was monitor engineer and I knew both the owner of the lighting company as well as his assistant at the time (who now owns the lighting company that still services these events). As well, my road house was the rain date location and I recall a year after the accident the lighting company owner (Mark) brought in his system on a rainout. He was still using the same truss, including one piece that had been bent in the accident and to which he bent it back into straight (aluminum) with a section of steel pipe inserted " for added strength". We refused to rig it and he was one truss short that night. We shortly after stopped being the rainout house. Good riddance. Mark got out of the business.


----------



## BillESC

SteveB said:


> Bill, I had one co-worker that was the SM on that gig, another was monitor engineer and I knew both the owner of the lighting company as well as his assistant at the time (who now owns the lighting company that still services these events). As well, my road house was the rain date location and I recall a year after the accident the lighting company owner (Mark) brought in his system on a rainout. He was still using the same truss, including one piece that had been bent in the accident and to which he bent it back into straight (aluminum) with a section of steel pipe inserted " for added strength". We refused to rig it and he was one truss short that night. We shortly after stopped being the rainout house. Good riddance. Mark got out of the business.



I remember reading the depositions regarding the case (three banker boxes full,) and got a kick out of the following Q. and A.

Atty: Your company is called Stage Lights, Inc. correct?

Mark: Yes

Atty: In what state are you incorporated?

Mark: I'm not incorporated.

Atty: Then why is Inc. a part of your company name?

Mark: Because it sounds better.


----------



## Esoteric

Yes, SR, sorry, its been one of those days.

To me, without knowing all the facts, this seems like a bunch of events that taken on their own no one would have even noticed or would have dismissed as "just part of the day". But when stacked up one on the other ended in this terrible tragedy.

I didn't even think of the plates coming off. I have seen truss under heavy stress (in my work doing renovations/remodels) and have never seen those plates give way. As my welder said, if done properly those welds should be the strongest part of the structure. And shearing grade 8 bolts? Wow.

Mother nature is truly awe inspiring.


----------



## techieman33

Esoteric said:


> Yes, SR, sorry, its been one of those days.
> 
> To me, without knowing all the facts, this seems like a bunch of events that taken on their own no one would have even noticed or would have dismissed as "just part of the day". But when stacked up one on the other ended in this terrible tragedy.
> 
> I didn't even think of the plates coming off. I have seen truss under heavy stress (in my work doing renovations/remodels) and have never seen those plates give way. As my welder said, if done properly those welds should be the strongest part of the structure. And shearing grade 8 bolts? Wow.
> 
> Mother nature is truly awe inspiring.



Do we know they were using grade 8 bolts? I've seen a couple of different compaines using grade 5 hardware to try and save a few dollars.


----------



## Esoteric

That was a complete assumption on my part. I always use grade 8 bolts period. For everything. So I assume anyone doing anything like that would always use grade 8 bolts. But after all the work of other companies I have had to clean up over the years I should know better than to assume these things.


----------



## Footer

techieman33 said:


> Do we know they were using grade 8 bolts? I've seen a couple of different compaines using grade 5 hardware to try and save a few dollars.


 
The companies that put this stage up was a good shop with a clean track record. I would be totally amazed if they were not grade 8 bolts. With any of the structural elements involved, my personal feeling is that we should assume they put the thing up according to the plans provided by Thomas, guyed it correctly, and correctly torqued every single bolt. There are post-accident engineering specialists combing the wreckage as we speak, if anything was done incorrectly it will come out. However, lets not speculate on what our brethren did wrong in the structure. We can all see that there was a lot of things hanging to catch wind. Its pretty obvious that is what started the collapse. However, lets not just assume this thing was put up with gaff and bubble gum. This thread is being watched by national news outlets, lets keep complete and total hearsay out of this conversation.


----------



## DaveySimps

Reposting from another location:

FUND FOR NATHAN BYRDS: NATHAN WAS THE SPOT OP WHO LOST HIS LIFE IN THE INDIANA COLLAPSE. NATHAN WAS A SINGLE DAD OF 2 KIDS AGES 13 AND 15. I WAS INFORMED THE FAMILY IS STRUGGLING TO FIND MONEY FOR THE FUNERAL, CLOTHES FOR THE KIDS TO ATTEND THE FUNERAL AND THEY HAVE NO SCHOOL CLOTHES OR SCHOOL SUPPLIES, IF YOU WOULD LIKE TO HELP PLEASE SEND DONATIONS TO:

IATSE Local 30
ATTN:NATHAN BYRD FAMILY
1407 EAST RIVERSIDE DRIVE
INDIANAPOLIS, IN 46202-203


----------



## shiben

Footer said:


> The companies that put this stage up was a good shop with a clean track record. I would be totally amazed if they were not grade 8 bolts. With any of the structural elements involved, my personal feeling is that we should assume they put the thing up according to the plans provided by Thomas, guyed it correctly, and correctly torqued every single bolt. There are post-accident engineering specialists combing the wreckage as we speak, if anything was done incorrectly it will come out. However, lets not speculate on what our brethren did wrong in the structure. We can all see that there was a lot of things hanging to catch wind. Its pretty obvious that is what started the collapse. However, lets not just assume this thing was put up with gaff and bubble gum. This thread is being watched by national news outlets, lets keep complete and total hearsay out of this conversation.



Plus I think it misses the point, that there were spot operators in the truss AFTER a Severe thunderstorm Warning was in effect. You could see lightning and whatnot There were people still sitting in the seats. And no one bothered to evacuate the place. If they had evacuated the place, this thread would be very different, more "wow that thing fell. Good they all got out ok!" not 5 people died. A simple change in show management could have done that. I dont question that the stage was set up properly, it probably was. However, I still question if the stage itself could be made safer. But thats beside the point. The fact of the matter remains that if someone had been like "that storm looks large, lets hold the event for a few hours", the biggest issue would have been solved. People hoping they have out-engineered the weather... And in the Midwest too... Would think that the whole Tornado thing would have been riveted into peoples minds: wind can take your house and throw it a few miles away, dont try and mess with it...


----------



## Esoteric

You would think people in the midwest would have more awe for wind. I know we do down here in Texas.


----------



## DuckJordan

I think you hit a good point... Who's decision was it to send those Spot ops up? We had a large discussion this morning about that with 220 here. Couldn't figure out who decided to put em up there after hearing what was coming.


----------



## Esoteric

Don't know who put them up there, but I told an IA supervisor, a shows producer, and the steward on site to "F*&$ off" when they told me to climb a metal spot tower when I could see lightening 100-200 or so yards in the distance.

This might have been a little different, and I am not blaming these poor spot ops, but at some point you have to be responsible for your own safety. No show or job is worth dying over.

I am hoping that the IA guys here (and I get this feeling from what I have heard about this local) just had no clue as to what was coming.


----------



## len

SteveB said:


> Here's what was in today's NY Times.
> 
> 
> "Even as the metal rigging high above a packed concert here began to shudder, Indiana State Fair officials were walking toward the stage, preparing, they said, to order the crowd to evacuate to avoid an arriving storm.
> 
> “We were en route,” Cynthia Hoye, the fair’s executive director, recalled on Monday, after a somber memorial service to remember the five people who died and dozens of others who were hurt on Saturday night when the overhead rigging collapsed during the state fair show.



Here's one more thought: Let's say an announcement had been made. Even 30 minutes earlier. Do you think that the crowd would have cleared? Some would have left, but I bet a good portion of those in that "pit" downstage would have tried to wait it out. And even if they did leave or were forced to leave, would they have sufficiently cleared out in time? Would the area the stage collapsed onto been empty? 

Not saying that an evacuation shouldn't have been called, but I'm just wondering if sufficient security was in place for a quick exit situation. 

And one other thing: Let's be thankful that there are a lot of outdoor shows that go off completely without a hitch. Lollapalooza x 20 for example.


----------



## derekleffew

ANSI/ESTA/PLASA standard _BSR E1.21 - 201x, Entertainment Technology — Temporary Ground-Supported Structures Used to Cover the Stage Areas and Support Equipment in the Production of Outdoor Entertainment Events_ is now in public review until 11 Oct 2011:
TSP - Published Documents - About TSP Documents, Published Documents, Public Review Documents, Procedural Documents .

"To participate in the review of these documents, please download the necessary forms and documents by using the links provided."


----------



## JD

A question that jumped out at me early was "Why were the spot ops sent up?" (One I was thinking myself.) But maybe we're looking at this the wrong way. There was a pre-show. Maybe they never came down. Having run spot on a high tower, there is always the question in your mind as to if it is worth it to be climbing down and back up during the 30 minute or so break. I do not know what their schedule was, and if it was only a 30 minute break, but it may explain why they were up there.


----------



## mstaylor

It is my understanding they were just getting there.I am looking for confirmation.


----------



## toproy

gafftapegreenia said:


> Even if it was impossible to lower the roof (due to the tons of PA, screen and truss hanging off of it) within the time frame of the approaching storm, an evacuation should have been ordered. At the very least, the area around the stage, in the "crash zone", should have been cleared. It is CLEAR that there is a dire need for rules that give absolutely authority to someone (who that someone should be, I don't have the experience to say) to make the cancel call.


 
You know guys? I praise myself for having been trained by some of the best folks in the show industry. All were American and I have always been very very proud of the things they set as Standards for the Mexico show industry. 

I was a production Director for OCESA, OCESA Presents for a number of years. But my point is that I do not what happened to my "masters."

Almost every production I have attended to here in the USA seems to lack all the basic principles that were thought to me. 

The people who thought me how to erect a ground support would have lowered the roof or ordered an evacuation the moment the wind picked up and they would have known it was going to pick up minutes before...

What happened guys? Why does it seem that all the production minimal safety standards have made way to profit? I mean, I know our industry like any other is cut throat but...

The production guy who made comments to the TV station says that "there was a lot of pressure" and he is talking about a 20K Pax arena aprox...

20k Pax was my medium venue (Palacio de los Deportes) and my big one was 62K Pax... (Foro Sol) and yes... I know millions of dollars are on the line, but when you only thing gold... eventually someone else will pay with his/her life. And that is just a rule.

The show must go on... certainly... but I have worked with roofs down, it is not the end of the world. And I have also canceled events due to terrible weather. So if I learned from the best and I have been able to do this... what the heck happened here?

The chief rigger normally has authority to lower the roof, the production manager has complete authority to do anything from cancel the show to lower the roof, to order the tarps removed (which would have been a bad idea in hindsight).

But OK, so fine... you loose a roof and millions of dollars of Backline, lights, sound, monitors, monitor consoles, microphones, and all that is there on the stage. That can be called an "accident" even a "freak accident" if you are so inclined... 

But having spot operators up there in those weather conditions, is borderline criminal and negligent to say the least.


----------



## toproy

JD said:


> A question that jumped out at me early was "Why were the spot ops sent up?" (One I was thinking myself.) But maybe we're looking at this the wrong way. There was a pre-show. Maybe they never came down. Having run spot on a high tower, there is always the question in your mind as to if it is worth it to be climbing down and back up during the 30 minute or so break. I do not know what their schedule was, and if it was only a 30 minute break, but it may explain why they were up there.


 
It is rare that the truss spots are used on an opening, at least in most of my shows. It happens, but it is rare. 

I would think that the spot ups were sent up after the opening, but you are right. When they do use them for the opening, they normally raise up their ladder and stay up there until the main show. I even once tied myself to the truss and took a nap that I had to be waken up from... Not a very bright idea... I know... but heck... I was 17.


----------



## Esoteric

toproy said:


> It is rare that the truss spots are used on an opening, at least in most of my shows. It happens, but it is rare.
> 
> I would think that the spot ups were sent up after the opening, but you are right. When they do use them for the opening, they normally raise up their ladder and stay up there until the main show. I even once tied myself to the truss and took a nap that I had to be waken up from... Not a very bright idea... I know... but heck... I was 17.


 
Hahaha... You know what? I did the same thing once. Woke up to something bright in my face, the LD had turned on an ERS and other op was shining it at me to get me to wake up.


----------



## toproy

Esoteric said:


> Don't know who put them up there, but I told an IA supervisor, a shows producer, and the steward on site to "F*&$ off" when they told me to climb a metal spot tower when I could see lightening 100-200 or so yards in the distance.
> 
> This might have been a little different, and I am not blaming these poor spot ops, but at some point you have to be responsible for your own safety. No show or job is worth dying over.
> 
> I am hoping that the IA guys here (and I get this feeling from what I have heard about this local) just had no clue as to what was coming.



I agree with you Esoteric, we are all individually responsible for our own roncus well-being but you know these guys up there trust us with "More experience" and "authority" to make certain decisions and feel safe that we make them.

For me the responsibility is always with whoever tells the guys... "get up there" from checking that the structure is properly grounded, to making sure they are wearing their safety gear which you know very well they try not to use many times.

And the guy trying to make ends meet with 2 teen boys and being a single dad is very unlikely to object to your order of getting up there if that could mean to him that he wont be able to put food on the table. I know... makes no sense, now those two teens are alone in the world... and it is as sad as can be... but that is the psychology of the crew, they trust us with chops to make the judgment calls for them many times.


----------



## toproy

Esoteric said:


> Hahaha... You know what? I did the same thing once. Woke up to something bright in my face, the LD had turned on an ERS and other op was shining it at me to get me to wake up.


 
They tried to wake me up trough the head sets but they finally had to wash me with a Xenon Super Trooper... that did the trick


----------



## bullseye

Read below


----------



## dvsDave

Jim, from jimonlight.com posted a link to a new video from inside the Indiana State Fair / Sugarland Stage Collapse. 

Warning, audio is NSFW and the video is disturbing. I'm not embedding it on purpose. 

Inside the SugarLand stage collapse - YouTube

Jerky video at the beginning, then the guy puts the smartphone in his pocket and all you get is audio. 11 minutes worth of audio of him and a doctor trying (and succeeding) to save a little boy. The boy was brought to ICU with a broken back, a shattered right foot, collapsed lung, and open head wounds. He just got out of Pediatric ICU today (status updates here: http://www.caringbridge.org/visit/bradleyhumphrey/journal/ )


----------



## Van

Wow, that is, well i was going to say very hard to watch but I couldn't watch it all. That guy is to be hailed for running in as others ran out. 
I'm gonna go cry for a bit now.


----------



## dvsDave

I forced myself to watch/listen to the whole thing so I could give an accurate summary of what to expect. I cried too. I don't expect I'll sleep much tonight, except that I know the boy is alive.


----------



## DaveySimps

So horrible. I could not make it through even half of it. Too disturbing. It ranks up there with the video where you can he the people who are on fire screaming in the Station nightclub fire. 

~Dave


----------



## dvsDave

*Re: Stage Collapse at Pukkelpop Music Festival in Hasslet, Belgium during severe weat*

Updates. updated info comes from David Fox (Twitter, got fox? )

Indiana State Fair Emergency Plan was just 1 page.
Indiana State Fair emergency plan is just 1 page - Yahoo! News

Guy Wires were in place, unlike earlier speculation.



Indiana Governer Mitch Daniels appoints outside firm to review the state fair issues:
Ind. gov. hires outside firm to review fair issue - Timesonline.com: National:


----------



## MistressRach

*Re: Stage Collapse at Pukkelpop Music Festival in Hasslet, Belgium during severe weat*

Apparently, earlier articles stating that the fair should have hired a meteorologist were misinformed. It appears they had one and failed to listen to him.


> ...fair staff had access to Doppler radar through the National Weather Service and a meteorologist who was on hand.
> 
> On Monday, state fair spokesperson Andy Klotz told Fox 59 News that the meteorologist at the event warned concert officials more than a half hour before the stage went down.
> 
> "At 8:15 he said the weather was coming," Klotz said.
> 
> According to Klotz the meteorologist said the weather would likely cause the concert to be postponed. At that point Klotz said he admitted that the decision could have been made to evacuate.



From: Meteorologist, author says Indiana State Fair stage collapse was a needless tragedy - fox59.com


----------



## dvsDave

*Re: Stage Collapse at Pukkelpop Music Festival in Hasslet, Belgium during severe weat*

Apparently, the message has been getting heard. Missouri State Fair remains without power after overnight storm - KansasCity.com


----------



## rochem

It appears as though the collapse has claimed a sixth victim. Jennifer Haskell, a 22 year old college student who passed away this morning.

Indiana State Fair stage collapse claims sixth victim - latimes.com


----------



## Pie4Weebl

Looks like the media is starting to pick up on the lack of regulation:
In TN, outdoor concert stages get little scrutiny | The Tennessean | tennessean.com


----------



## mstaylor

The picture they used of Darius looks like a Mountain Stage. That is apples and oranges. It is not a self climbing Thomas style roof. It has a suspended roof off towers of some substance. Small towers are usually around 27x35. There is usually a wind wall upstage that ties to the side towers. A small one is 14x stage width. The last one I built had concrete ballast in the side towers and water ballast upstage. 
I'm not saying it can't sustain damage but because of shear mass and footprint it is unlikely to collapse.
Also, all their stage designs are approved by engineers if I remember correctly.


----------



## derekleffew

7th victim of Ind. fair collapse to be organ donor


----------



## ptero

The following is from: 7th Victim To Donate Organs After Fair Stage Collapse - Indiana News Story - WRTV Indianapolis
Indiana State Police and the Marion County Coroner's Office initially said Meagan Toothman, 24, of Cincinnati, had died Sunday night, but Deputy Coroner Alfie Ballew and ISP 1st Sgt. Dave Bursten later clarified that Toothman was being kept on life support, with death imminent. {end paste}

Apparently, she was pronounced dead by the coroner late Sunday night. She remains on life support through Monday while arrangements are being made to take advantage of her donation of organs.


----------



## derekleffew

State preparing to pay $5M in stage collapse damages | 2011-08-31 | Indianapolis Business Journal | IBJ.com


----------



## Robersim

JD said:


> A question that jumped out at me early was "Why were the spot ops sent up?" (One I was thinking myself.) But maybe we're looking at this the wrong way. There was a pre-show. Maybe they never came down. Having run spot on a high tower, there is always the question in your mind as to if it is worth it to be climbing down and back up during the 30 minute or so break. I do not know what their schedule was, and if it was only a 30 minute break, but it may explain why they were up there.



They were begging to come down. But the show manager wouldnt let them come down, they were allowed to come down too late. The spot ops were on the way down as it was collapsing.


----------



## Les

Robersim said:


> They were begging to come down. But the show manager wouldnt let them come down, they were allowed to come down too late. The spot ops were on the way down as it was collapsing.



That's awful! A lesson to be learned though: don't let *anyone* strong arm you in to doing something (or not doing something) when those alarm bells in your head are going off saying "I shouldn't be up here, I shouldn't be doing this!". Fight or flight syndrome is there for a reason, and don't let any superior convince you otherwise. They are your boss at work, but not of your life. This goes for _any_ situation where you feel unsafe, including that college student who was blown over in the scissor lift. Trust your instincts, always. 

*Of course, I mean absolutely no disrespect to the spot ops who lost their lives. They were only [and honorably] doing as told. What happened was terrible, but we can learn from this. The boss doesn't always know best and don't trust your life in anyone's hands but your own. It's the only one you've got.*


----------



## derekleffew

Costs of State Fair stage collapse investigation rising | 2011-09-08 | Indianapolis Business Journal | IBJ.com


----------



## derekleffew

Union investigated in Indiana State Fair stage collapse - 13 WTHR


----------



## blackisthenewblack

derekleffew said:


> Union investigated in Indiana State Fair stage collapse - 13 WTHR


 
Wow, that article contained almost no new relevant information. Now irrelevant information...


----------



## mstaylor

Union: Fair stagehands were state employees - 13 WTHR
All the work I have ever done through the union, I was assigned by the union but was paid by the event. Now if they had hired a company that supplies hands and riggers, then that company would be liable for the training and workmanship. Even then the work is done under the supervision of the equipment supplier. As a supervisor for one such company, when I rig a show we are saying it is done in a safe and proper manner. If a company is trying to get you to do something that is unsafe or improper then it is the lablr company's responsibility to balk. Sending those guys up should have fallen in that line. The rigger should have said no and the union should have backed him. If the Fair or promoter decides to try to do the show, that's their call, they do it without truss spots. I have been asked to go on a truss in lightning and I said no, I wouldn't nor any of my guys would either. They were mad because they didn't get the effect they wanted and they had to pay us on top of it. We were scheduled to do a show call, we were there but it was unsafe to do so.


----------



## len

One of the wrongful death suits. Wrongful-death suit filed by woman whose same-sex partner was killed in Indiana stage collapse - chicagotribune.com


----------



## derekleffew

http://www.indystar.com/article/201...-mount?odyssey=tab|mostpopular|text|FRONTPAGE

Seizure of union records in stage collapse is blocked | The Indianapolis Star | indystar.com


----------



## jstroming

Wait, so I'm supposed to hire union employees for my shows (who we're told to hire because they work safer and have more experience) but if they screw up then i'm responsible because I didn't train them in the safe use of the equipment?


----------



## shiben

jstroming said:


> Wait, so I'm supposed to hire union employees for my shows (who we're told to hire because they work safer and have more experience) but if they screw up then i'm responsible because I didn't train them in the safe use of the equipment?


 
The union's job is to protect their members... Thus they are protecting them (perhaps misguidedly) from being blamed for the collapse. My guess is the judge will grant a stay to accept arguments, and since people died, and one of those was a union member, the union records will be seized following a hearing deciding that course of action. Anyone have any knowledge of precedent based on other union members involved in workplace accidents? My guess is that Indiana would have some sort of regulations on this sort of thing, what with a very industrialized northern bit and all...


----------



## ruinexplorer

Under due course, the records will be provided. The state hires union workers, but the state is the employer at that time. The union is basically a labor referral agency who offers a collective bargaining to make sure that all members are treated fairly and will protect those members. When the state hires the stagehands, it would be their responsibility to specify any types of certifications. If they said "We need 20 stagehands" then there is no guarantee of their skills. If they specified that they wanted a certain number to have a certain degree of training, then it is the union's responsibility to provide them with specific stagehands who meet that criteria. I would have to agree that at this point in the investigation, it looks like they are trying to find a scapegoat and not put it on the organizers who failed to have a suitable plan for bad weather.

As for precedent, it is a workplace accident. Union members are employed by some entity and that entity would be the responsible party for the workplace accident. 

This is the biggest difference between the union and any other staging company. The union is not an employer. No union is. If you go to the grocery store and the clerk is a member of the UFCW, they are still an employee of said store, not the union. I don't know why people don't understand that, unless it is because stagehands are generally temporary employees.


----------



## shiben

ruinexplorer said:


> I would have to agree that at this point in the investigation, it looks like they are trying to find a scapegoat and not put it on the organizers who failed to have a suitable plan for bad weather.
> 
> As for precedent, it is a workplace accident. Union members are employed by some entity and that entity would be the responsible party for the workplace accident.
> 
> This is the biggest difference between the union and any other staging company. The union is not an employer. No union is. If you go to the grocery store and the clerk is a member of the UFCW, they are still an employee of said store, not the union. I don't know why people don't understand that, unless it is because stagehands are generally temporary employees.


 
The precedent would be could IOSHA serve a warrant on any other union (steel workers, for example), should some of their members be involved in an accident. Could they/have they done that? And the reason people might have that conception about IA is because of what you mentioned, the extreme amount of effectively temp work. Not saying the IA is doing something wrong here, just thinking aloud about it.

And for what its worth, I happen to agree that they want someone other than the organizers to blame. I guess IF I was IOSHA I would be curious as to what certs the hands had, if that would change what the problem was in the end, I dont know. I mean, there IS something to be said for covering your bases, but in the end, the fact remains that a structure that was effectively a large sail was up and had people in the rigging and under it during a storm, and if that had not been the situation, perhaps no one would have died. However, Im just wondering if IOSHA has/does not have that authority to pull union records, which I suspect they do.


----------



## derekleffew

Stagehand recounts Sugarland stage collapse - 13 WTHR


----------



## derekleffew

First good news to come out of the "tragic accident"/"foreseeable occurrence":
State Fair moves 2012 concerts to Conseco Fieldhouse | 2011-11-10 | Indianapolis Business Journal | IBJ.com


----------



## zmb

Is this the first legal case to come out?
Stage collapse victims file suit vs. Sugarland - Entertainment - Music - TODAY.com


----------



## derekleffew

Defects prompt closure of county fair grandstands | 2011-12-01 | Indianapolis Business Journal | IBJ.com


> A central Indiana county faces a big bill to replace its fairground's grandstand after numerous safety problems were found during an inspection prompted by this summer's deadly state fair stage collapse.


----------



## derekleffew

From Bill requiring Indiana stage inspections advances | www.whiotv.com :

> All temporary outdoor stages like the one that collapsed last year at the Indiana State Fair, killing seven people, would have to be inspected before they are used for performances under a bill approved Tuesday by a state Senate committee.


The problem is, inspected by whom? There are probably less than ten industry experts I'd personally trust to do this type of inspection. None of them a city/county/state inspector. Further, if they are inspecting solely for compliance with a manufacturer's specifications, don't we think that's already being done? I have a very strong suspicion that the evidence will eventually show that the Indiana State Fair structure met all requirements and was assembled in accordance with its manufacturer.

Will requiring a state inspection make things safer?

EDIT: From http://www.indystar.com/article/201...-Senate?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|IndyStar.com :

> "We don't know whether it will fix anything or not," Smith said. "Once the investigation comes out and we find out exactly what happened . . . we will be able to craft some meaningful legislation that has long-lasting impact on the public safety of Hoosiers in the state of Indiana."


----------



## teqniqal

derekleffew said:


> From
> The problem is, inspected by whom? There are probably less than ten industry experts I'd personally trust to do this type of inspection. None of them a city/county/state inspector. Further, if they are inspecting solely for compliance with a manufacturer's specifications, don't we think that's already being done? I have a very strong suspicion that the evidence will eventually show that the Indiana State Fair structure met all requirements and was assembled in accordance with its manufacturer.
> 
> Will requiring a state inspection make things safer?




This is just a start. Any proposed bill takes multiple revisions before it is accepted as law. Let's wait until we see the published engineers forensic analysis before we jump to conclusions about the state of the canopy structure on that fateful day.


----------



## mstaylor

It always amazes when legislators start passing laws before they have a clue what really happened. I had a local inspector last year say he wanted a flip stage tied down. I asked him if he realized there was a complete unit that flips out of a trailer?


----------



## venuetech

well its one step for better or for worse.
PLSN

> PLSN news
> Bill Requiring Outdoor Staging Permits, Inspections Passes Indiana State Senate
> Written by Frank Hammel
> Saturday, 28 January 2012 15:48
> 
> INDIANAPOLIS — Indiana’s lawmakers, undoubtedly mindful of the Aug. 13, 2011 Indiana State Fair staging collapse that killed seven people, made progress in late January toward the establishment of a new state law that will govern the use of outdoor staging. Senate Bill No. 273 passed and was forwarded to the state’s House of Representatives for consideration. Although it may be modified further in the House, it will most likely require permits for any event after June 2012 where staging structures are in use.



The current version of SB 273 can be downloaded from:

http://www.in.gov/legislative/bills/2012/PDF/SB/SB0273.1.pdf


----------



## derekleffew

Developing news:
Agency cites Indiana State Fair, stagehands union, sound company in fatal stage collapse | The Indianapolis Star | indystar.com

From Indiana State Fair Collapse Report Blames Mid-America and IATSE? | Jim On Light :

> Something I find confusing and disgusting is that:
> 
> 1. Governor Daniels has not acknowledged that the State has any blame;
> 2. the PRODUCERS of this event haven't had any blame placed on them, either.
> 
> Does anyone else find this disturbing?


EDIT: IA Local 30 takes the position that they're not responsible for anything:Stagehands union refutes state's fair collapse findings - 12 WTHR

EDIT: JohnHuntington has replied to me privately:

> I posted a couple videos on my blog from the IOSHA press conference and links to the actual IOSHA reports. I'm traveling all over the place this week so I don't have time to post on ControlBooth ...


----------



## avkid

$63,000......really?
That's nothing.


----------



## techieman33

avkid said:


> $63,000......really?
> That's nothing.


 
The fines usually are, it's the lawsuits that get expensive.


----------



## mstaylor

The union is saying they are blameless. I don't necessarily agree, I think they did schedule the labor and supply the training. I agree citing them for not inspecting the soil conditions is crazy. That falls to the stage supplier and the fair. Also not supplying belts is stupid. Every guy should be supplying their own gear. I didn't realize belts were even an issue. I do agree that the union is not the employer.


----------



## ruinexplorer

There's careful wording there. The union is not culpable for the fines as those are placed on an employer, which the union is not. This is not to say that Mid-America nor the Indiana State Fair could not sue the union to recoup losses due to negligence of any of the members. After all, if one of those employers stated that they needed a certain amount of riggers, and the union supplied them, they should know the training of those members (or over-hire). Of course, an employer can always request information on the capability of certain individuals, but that is rare indeed. I'm most astounded that the fines to the State Fair were not higher since they were the employer at the time of the collapse and ultimately who should have called the show.


----------



## MNicolai

mstaylor said:


> The union is saying they are blameless. I don't necessarily agree, I think they did schedule the labor and supply the training. I agree citing them for not inspecting the soil conditions is crazy. That falls to the stage supplier and the fair. Also not supplying belts is stupid. Every guy should be supplying their own gear. I didn't realize belts were even an issue. I do agree that the union is not the employer.


 
I would argue that Mid America engineered the structure and would've been the ones responsible for ensuring Local 30 erected it properly.

That said, Mid America claims they informed the Fair the structure was not designed for winds in excess of 40mph and that at that point the area should be evacuated.

If true, all of the blame I care about (injury, loss of life) falls on the Fair for ignoring that declared limitation and it's be up for debate whether the Fair or Mid America should be responsible for property damages. 

Had the Fair heeded that warning, some property would be damaged but nobody would have been put in harm's way.

You cannot expect the Local 30 crew to have any structural engineers on staff to design the structure or verify it's resiliency. They are there to bolt trusses together and assemble the structure as someone else has designed it.


----------



## mstaylor

> I would argue that Mid America engineered the structure and would've been the ones responsible for ensuring Local 30 erected it properly.


Agreed, Local 30 supplies the guys, they are told what to do. The riggers are trained though and if they had concerns they should express them. Ultimately it is Mid America's responsibility.

> That said, Mid America claims they informed the Fair the structure was not designed for winds in excess of 40mph and that at that point the area should be evacuated.



Probably true.


> If true, all of the blame I care about (injury, loss of life) falls on the Fair for ignoring that declared limitation and it's be up for debate whether the Fair or Mid America should be responsible for property damages.



Both, Mid America should have a rep babysitting the structure. The Fair is ultimately responsible for pulling the show down. Sugarland is equally responsible for show cancilation.


> Had the Fair heeded that warning, some property would be damaged but nobody would have been put in harm's way.



They certainly should have pulled the show down but ther would have been no way to drop the roof, so it would have gone anyway. 


> You cannot expect the Local 30 crew to have any structural engineers on staff to design the structure or verify it's resiliency. They are there to bolt trusses together and assemble the structure as someone else has designed it.



I agree completely. As I said higher up, they have trained riggers, if they have concerns they need to express them. The thing is, I don't believe the structure was assembled incorrectly or unsafely. At that point, 30 is out of it. Putting as much crap on the roof as they did, coupled with high winds is what made it fall down. 
To me the responsible parties are the Fair, Sugarland and the promoter. MidAmerica to a small part because they owned it.


----------



## avkid

mstaylor said:


> The thing is, I don't believe the structure was assembled incorrectly or unsafely. At that point, 30 is out of it. Putting as much crap on the roof as they did, coupled with high winds is what made it fall down.


 I disagree. If you recall, the structure had recently been improved by James Thomas Engineering for this exact situation. MidAmerica did not build it according to the plans supplied by the engineers at James Thomas.


----------



## gafftapegreenia

avkid said:


> MidAmerica did not build it according to the plans supplied by the engineers at James Thomas.


 
Got a linky?


----------



## shiben

avkid said:


> I disagree. If you recall, the structure had recently been improved by James Thomas Engineering for this exact situation. MidAmerica did not build it according to the plans supplied by the engineers at James Thomas.


 
"Modified by James Thomas" and "Plans by James Thomas" kind of go together. If the thing was modified by the designer to handle a larger load, Imma go ahead and say they probably A used some computer modeling to assess it and B probably produced new engineering drawings. Seems highly doubtful that Thomas would engineer a new structure, tell a couple guys how that worked and then wash their hands of the project.


----------



## shiben

mstaylor said:


> Every guy should be supplying their own gear. I didn't realize belts were even an issue.


 
IIRC PPE is the responsibility of the employer for the most part from an OSHA standpoint. The view is if the company is placing you in a situation requiring PPE, you should be at least paid to compensate you for buying or have bought for you some PPE. At least thats how it works at factories and industrial places here...


----------



## cbrandt

It is generally assumed that every rigger will supply their own gear, because they'll be more comfortable with the safety of it. However, it is the responsibility of the employer to inspect said gear at every gig to make sure that it passes safety standards. Just because someone else brought it, he's still using it on your job site, and you're responsible for it.


----------



## len

avkid said:


> I disagree. If you recall, the structure had recently been improved by James Thomas Engineering for this exact situation. MidAmerica did not build it according to the plans supplied by the engineers at James Thomas.



If I understand you, Thomas built the original stage, and then modified it per request of Mid-America, or whoever. If that's true, then the person(s) who designed/engineered the modification (i.e., Thomas or whoever), along with the person(s) who requested it, are both culpable, IMO. Now if I were with Thomas (or whoever built and/or modified the stage) I would want to be there to make sure that my modifications were assembled correctly. I'd also want to know exactly what kind of weight/stress was being placed on it, and verify that the actual extra weight/stress was equal to or less than the stress factors I was given when I was asked to do the modification.


----------



## MNicolai

len said:


> If I understand you, Thomas built the original stage, and then modified it per request of Mid-America, or whoever. If that's true, then the person(s) who designed/engineered the modification (i.e., Thomas or whoever), along with the person(s) who requested it, are both culpable, IMO. Now if I were with Thomas (or whoever built and/or modified the stage) I would want to be there to make sure that my modifications were assembled correctly. I'd also want to know exactly what kind of weight/stress was being placed on it, and verify that the actual extra weight/stress was equal to or less than the stress factors I was given when I was asked to do the modification.



Good questions to be asking, but the answers are superfluous if the Fair was in fact told not to use the structure with winds in excess of 40mph. Doesn't matter who put the structure in the air or designed it. The winds at the time of the collapse were estimated at 60-70mph -- much greater than the structure was designed to support.

It doesn't change the fact that the roof should have been brought down or that temporary outdoor roof/stage structures should be designed for this kind of bad weather, but this structure _did_ last longer than it was engineered and did not fail prematurely.

The only "out" for the Fair IMO is if they specifically requested a structure stronger than the one that was built and Thomas/Mid-America underdelivered. Otherwise Thomas and/or Mid America got their out when they said "Evacuate at 40MPH+ winds" unless in the moment a representative from one of those parties explicitly gave the OK for the show to continue.

Something smells fishy about why the show wasn't cancelled and I don't think Local 30, Mid America, or Thomas had a hand in the show going on other than that people like Nathan Byrd had gone into his followspot chair and hadn't refused to do the show. I'm also willing to guess someone like Nathan wasn't in a position to know what the trusses were rated for, nor that a strong line of winds was approaching the staging areas.


----------



## mstaylor

shiben said:


> IIRC PPE is the responsibility of the employer for the most part from an OSHA standpoint. The view is if the company is placing you in a situation requiring PPE, you should be at least paid to compensate you for buying or have bought for you some PPE. At least thats how it works at factories and industrial places here...


In industrial and munufacturing plants you are talking about mostly fall protection for lifts or ladders. Theatrical riggers and steel erectors generally supply their personal gear. Some companies, including mine will supply them but most insist on their own. This can lead to a standoff. I will not wear a tour supplied belt. Many tours won't allow you to wear your own. I have never seen a union supply any gear for anybody. 
I was unaware there any special modifications had been made to the stage. From an OSHA standpoint Local 30 has little or no responsibility. I know when we do outdoor stages we depend on the staging company to make the call if their roof will hold the show. The staging company has to be in on the conversation of weather.


----------



## teqniqal

ruinexplorer said:


> There's careful wording there. The union is not culpable for the fines as those are placed on an employer, which the union is not. This is not to say that Mid-America nor the Indiana State Fair could not sue the union to recoup losses due to negligence of any of the members. After all, if one of those employers stated that they needed a certain amount of riggers, and the union supplied them, they should know the training of those members (or over-hire). Of course, an employer can always request information on the capability of certain individuals, but that is rare indeed. I'm most astounded that the fines to the State Fair were not higher since they were the employer at the time of the collapse and ultimately who should have called the show.


 
The situation with Local 30 is NOT the same as with most other locals, and this is the reason that IOSHA has determined that they would fine them. In Local 30 the officers operate a business entity that process payroll and contracts workers, making them an employer. This is very different than most other union offices. Also, the fines are for the damages done to the Union Local 30 employees, not the general public, or the State Fair Commission, or Mid America Sound, or James Thomas Trusses, or any of the other parties.


----------



## ruinexplorer

Yes, they operate a payroll service out of their office, but I don't know the fine line in Indiana whether or not they define that payroll service as an Employer of Record, which would then be the employer of those union hands. However, since the payroll service is listed as being incorporated, then it is technically a separate entity from the union. In any case, I would say that there will be better definitions as to what an employer actually is, and the responsibilities for off site work as in the case of Employer of Record. Will the law require that all employees not working at the physical location of the "employer" now have to have a safety officer at the job site. If so, how many employees would have to be working before that additional employee were mandated at that site.

Of course, the fines levied against Local 30 were only for those employees and not others, since those were separate fines. Plus, OSHA (granted this is IOSHA which may be slightly different) is only responsible for the workers, never the general public. This is why there were no fines for the death of the Christmas Pageant rigging death a few years back. The girl who died and the rigger were both volunteers, not covered under OSHA.


----------



## derekleffew

Just unbelievable. Read the whole thing. Look for Sugarland to replace its legal team soon.

Sugarland lawyer blames fans hurt by stage - Entertainment - Music - TODAY.com

> Fans who were killed and injured when stage rigging and sound equipment collapsed onto them as they awaited a Sugarland concert at the Indiana State Fair failed to take steps to ensure their own safety and are at least in part to blame for their injuries, the country duo's attorneys said. ...
> "Some or all of the plaintiffs' claimed injuries resulted from their own fault," according to the response. Sugarland attorney James H. Milstone would not elaborate Tuesday on whether that statement included those killed as well as the injured.


-----
From an uncredited post on Facebook:

> Country duo Sugarland has denied negligence claims against it, responding to a lawsuit by saying that a fatal stage collapse last year at an Indiana State Fair was "a true accident, or act of God."
> In an affidavit from a lawsuit against one company, the fair's executive director says she twice sent the show's promoter to talk to Sugarland in an effort to delay the show.
> Twice the answer came back -- we want to go on, according to the deposition by Cynthia Hoye, the executive director of the state fair, according to the court filing.
> But in a separate document contained in a state report on the incident, Sugarland tour manager Helen Rollins said no one asked the band to delay its set.
> The band also said "they had nothing to do with the construction of the venue" and did not have the final say if the show should happen or not.
> Court and state documents reveal differing accounts of what happened.
> Several families of victims from the August incident have filed a lawsuit against Sugarland, contending it was negligent in the stage collapse that left seven people dead and more than 40 injured.
> The incident occurred after a storm toppled scaffolding just as the country band was about to take the stage.


----------



## avkid

derekleffew said:


> Just unbelievable. Read the whole thing. Look for Sugarland to replace its legal team soon.
> 
> Sugarland lawyer blames fans hurt by stage - Entertainment - Music - TODAY.com


They need to fire their lawyers and PR firm.


----------



## mstaylor

The fans bear some responsibility for their personal safety but the powers to be should know more and make the right calls. I don't believe for a minute the band wasn't consulted about weather and possibly canceling.


----------



## LavaASU

Hey, does anyone have a saved copy or a working link to the video/audio of the doctor saving the kid? It seems to be private now and I can't find a copy so I guess I didn't download it. I want to show it to some of our new crew.


----------



## MNicolai

LavaASU said:


> Hey, does anyone have a saved copy or a working link to the video/audio of the doctor saving the kid? It seems to be private now and I can't find a copy so I guess I didn't download it. I want to show it to some of our new crew.



I would also be interested in that link/file if anyone has it.


----------



## Van

Hot off the presses: More findings and statements. Thornton Thomasetti Inc. finds that the Jersey barrier ballast was insufficient and the entire structure was not adequately rated for even the minimum expected wind conditions. The Governor wasted no time in stating his willingness to share the information from Thomasettis reports with other states. < read that as " Hey don't blame us we didn't know, here let us make a humanitarian like gesture and pray no one else tries to sue us." > 


Reports: Indiana State Fair stage where seven died was inadequate - CNN.com


----------



## derekleffew

Van said:


> ...the Jersey barrier ballast ...


Politically (semi-) correct term for mafia block?



Plastic Jersey | Temporary Plastic Barricades & Barriers

To me, that's a K-rail. (And we learned from the movie _Volcano_ that the concrete version can redirect lava flow, and save Los Angeles.)
-----

> ...system had grossly inadequate capacity to resist both the *minimum code-specified wind speed (68 miles per hour)* and the actual wind speed that was present at the time of the failure (approximately 59 miles per hour)," according to a report by Thornton Tomasetti Inc., an engineering firm.


Exactly what "code" for temporary entertainment structures specifies minimum 68 mph wind speed?
-----

> "We will share freely all these findings and suggestions with any state who will listen, starting later this month at a national meeting in Indianapolis about national safety standards for outdoor temporary stages and structures."


Funny, I haven't seen anything in the trade mags or social media about this "national meeting." I wonder if any entertainment professionals/PLASA/ESTA will be invited?


----------



## teqniqal

derekleffew said:


> Funny, I haven't seen anything in the trade mags or social media about this "national meeting." I wonder if any entertainment professionals/PLASA/ESTA will be invited?



There is a bit of information here at the Event Safety Alliance site: (www.eventsafetyalliance.org)

The full report from the Indiana State Fair Commission can be found here: www.in.gov/sfc


----------



## ruinexplorer

So, there have been some staffing changes at the Fair Grounds as reported here.

I found this iteresting, the guy responsible for the fair's safety and security was promoted after all this.

> Fairgrounds facilities manager Dave Hummel has retired and will be replaced by Ray Allison, who had been the fair’s director of safety and security.


----------



## JohnD

I just ran across this concerning one of the stagehands.
Injured Stagehand Denied Victim Compensation in Indiana Collapse | SPLnetwork.com


----------



## derekleffew

Indiana State Fair Collapse Evidence Stolen - Indiana News Story - WRTV Indianapolis


----------



## gafftaper

DOH!  

That's really amazing. Apparently in Indiana evidence is not stored in a secure area. Unbelievable.


----------



## derekleffew

51 Claimants Accept Stage Collapse Settlement


----------



## Footer

So, we have a 2 day+load in day conference in our space and today I got the agenda. The conference is centered around NYS homeland security which includes state fire, national guard, police, and all that fun stuff. In that, this is an included session happening on my stage: 


> 3:35 p.m. - 5:15 p.m. Indiana State Fair Stage Collapse: Lessons Learned in Mass Gathering Planning
> Presenter: Joe Wainscott, Director, State of Indiana Department of Homeland Security;
> Moderator: Jerome M. Hauer, Commissioner, Division of Homeland Security and Emergency Services
> Description: On August 13, 2011, a stage collapse at the Indiana State Fair caused the death of seven people. The State of Indiana conducted an exhaustive investigation and found numerous deficiencies that contributed to the tragedy. As a result, the State of Indiana made several changes to its practices and laws. Indiana State leaders will discuss county and state fair planning, including the State's response to the incident, lessons learned, and changes to State law and code enforcement practices.



So, if you are in NYS it would not surprise me to see more oversight in this area in the coming year. They are at least paying attention to it.


----------



## derekleffew

http://www.fohonline.com/news/11708...iana-collapse-victims-in-39-million-deal.html


----------



## derekleffew

Four and a half years later, the story continues: http://www.fohonline.com/news/33-ne...letter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=topstory .


----------



## gafftapegreenia

derekleffew said:


> Four and a half years later, the story continues: http://www.fohonline.com/news/33-ne...letter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=topstory .



And four and a half years of coverage are all here chronologically in one convenient thread. Can Facebook do that?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## TuckerD

Here is a document from the Indiana state supreme court which explains what they were asked to rule on, the opinion of the court, and what their ruling was. Reading the first four and last page proved interesting but the middle bits can be complicated court stuff so I skipped most of it.


----------

