# Old, Old lighting fixtures?



## gafftapegreenia (Mar 12, 2007)

Whats the oldest fixture anyone has seen/used? For instance, take the Olivette. I've seen drawings and old Kliegl literature, but has anyone seen one or have recent pixtures? I saw some boxfloods at an old local, nonprofit theatre, but since I wasn't there to do lighting I wasn't able to get a closer look. Of course, alot of people, myself included, have experience with the old A-lamp/reflector/roundel striplight, but whos seen or used the old trough version? Additionally, old plano-convex spots pop up on eBay, often by manufacturers no ones ever heard of. I'm curious as to how these old lights look, its so hard to find examples of the earliest electric lights. So, whats the oldest fixture you've recently found yourself around?


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## soundlight (Mar 12, 2007)

Old century(pre-century-strand merger) radial lekos with the grey, flakey paint, old strand fresnels and R40 strips of the same vintage.

We have one old, old, old kleigl light up in the catwalks just to remind people how nice source fours are. It's a monster probably about 12" diameter and 22" long, narrowing down to a 6" or so opening, with a radial reflector/lamp socket arrangement that takes monstrous lamps.


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## punktech (Mar 12, 2007)

i've seen some real oldies (my middle school's theater was built in the 1920's and some of the instruments are still surviving and functional) if you want to know more just google for books about the history of lighting, they are out there. don't expect to find much on concert lighting however, it's not a very well documented field.


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## jmabray (Mar 12, 2007)

Too many old ones to even think about...

The best book out there, imo, that is a good reference book about this subject is called "Photometrics Handbook" by Robert C. Mumm. It has just about every theatrical light fixture ever made in it with lamp, electrical, and photometric info about it. Now it's not so up to date on the moving lights, but those come out so often now, any book is going to be out of date before it gets to the printers.


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## avkid (Mar 12, 2007)

If you're ever in Southwestern New York stop by and see us. Our instrument inventory is almost completely vintage. Approx. 1930-85


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## BillESC (Mar 12, 2007)

When I read the thread title I thought you were talking about me....


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## DarSax (Mar 12, 2007)

Two elephants and a cymbal died for the above comment.

As for my stuff...we have a couple Altman 360's, with aesbestos wiring, I think. (Not the Q). Other than that...well, I just don't know. Nothing like the 30's/40's you guys have though.


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## soundlight (Mar 12, 2007)

Yeah, all of the century stuff with the grey, flakey paint that I had in HS was asbestos wiring, with old-style twistlocks.


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## Van (Mar 12, 2007)

Somewhere Around here I have an old handheld carbon arc lamp, I can only assume this was used in as some sort of flood fill from a wing posistion.. Sitting in the lobby of Hollywood Lights in Portland is a 1912 or 27 < can't remember right now> carbon arc spot, completely restored except for a ballast. The Theatre at Tsa La Ghi, where I worked several summers had tons, literally, of old klieg cannons. They were ERS's about 4' < that's feet> < about 1.2m> long and a good 16" in diameter, They had a hell of a throw, well over 100'. We also had old strips at that theatre that took stackable pieces of glass for colorizing, instead of roundels these were one inch by four inch peices of R,G,B,Y(amber) glass.I'd like to ask, how many people have ever pulled the trick of sending an intern or newbie to go "wash" real old fashioned gels ?


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## gafftapegreenia (Mar 12, 2007)

I just remembered that the theatre we rented to do our musical at last year had two old Carbon Arc Strong Super Troopers. They didn't use them, instead they used their brand new Lycians.  This was a highschool and their head tech person, who has been working their for at least 30 years, said he'd fire them up just to show me, but we never got arond to it. Their FOH catwalk was fun too. Everything from old Capital Radials, and Kliegl Radials to 360Q's and Source 4's. Additionaly, they had about a dozen 18" scoops sitting in one corner that they replaced with new L&E cycs, and another dozen or so old 8" fresnels they no longer used. On stage was also a mixtures of Source 4's, 360Q's, and what looked like three "generations" of fresnels. (I know that fresnels don't change but you could tell they were made in different decades)

Thanks for the tip about the Handbook, I'll have to pick one up.


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## Footer (Mar 12, 2007)

For those of you who go to USITT (or are this week) usually the people from strong bust out some vintage spot lights and fire them up. When the ballast connects via cam locks, you know you have some power.


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## btfilms (Mar 12, 2007)

Hey! At my high school we have have about 50 year old lights. we have all twist lock connections and some weird connection i have never seen its some sort of twist lock but in a different form. we have this one spot that looks like a HUGE Leko on a tripod base. ill try to get some pictures and post them so you can all laugh at it. it really is huge and ugly. also we have these strip lights that use like regular light bulbs but with a long stem. i am not sure what kind these are are but they are big and bulky as well. and they only have one connection to it. for 12 lights on the strip. it's weird. i sure we have much more older things that i haven't came across yet but if i do ill take pictures and post them as well.


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## ship (Mar 13, 2007)

punktech said:


> i've seen some real oldies (my middle school's theater was built in the 1920's and some of the instruments are still surviving and functional) if you want to know more just google for books about the history of lighting, they are out there. don't expect to find much on concert lighting however, it's not a very well documented field.



A few books that doccument such old fixtures, I can provide a list of books to search for. Nothing modern however ... no real good Dover type books on early stage lighting, much less stage lighting history at the moment that I remember. Perhaps one that I forget and would have to search for. Best concept is eyes and ears open and not passing up the chance even for a duplicate book you have if earlier edition. Amazing the difference even in "A Method of Lighting the Stage" between the 1949 version and 1972 version. The 1949 version has the classic versions box light and some plano convex lights, the 1972 has the radial Lekos replacing them. Just got my 1929 version of Fuchs in from Amazon.... gonna be a good read.

Ditto with me on these types of carbon arc spot and often incandescent lamped rectangular box lights to old theaters of the 1920's experienced, plus long and heavy strip lights, index and foot lights left over from the origional days when the theater was built. For the most part I did my best to preserve them but didn't have much time available to play test them. 

This one PC fixture without it's lens I enherited as the fly rail light.... to which I quickly replaced. Seems it's outlet was a un-grounded non-polorized twist lock plug, and there was a short from the neutral to ground in the fixture. Plug it in correct, it works just fine I was advised. Plug it in backwards and it electrified the grid, much less if you touched a pipe to the rail, it would do great sparks I found out. By way of inheriting stuff like that, seems over the say last 30 years of use in the life in this fixture, nobody before me ever considered re-wiring the fixture and changing the outlet... For them, it was more a question of if it's doing sparks, just reverse how it's plugged in. Amazing - fixture was toast by way of wiring and rust. Possibly the only old fixture I ever threw out.

Oldest fixture... perhaps in my case something I saw way up in the ceiling arch of the same theater. It was a home made tin candle holder still hanging off a plaster support bar as used during the construction of the theater. One wouldn't think such a 1920's construction would be using candles yet there it was in a dark area of the ceiling arch. I left it there and would hope future people climbing the arch would also for other generations to find.

Designed a few shows with 4.1/2" PC fixtures, it's interesting and at times depends upon the fixture a lot... I also own some older lights from mostly about the 1960's including my Kliegl Dyna Beam. Still has an origional 3,000 Watt incandescent lamp that works, and origional gell in the boomerang. 

Over the weekend I was servicing fifteen 1960's Fresnels in bringing them up to 65Q standards... next up on the list, like twenty Altman 101' Plano-Convex fixtures from about the same period of time.

Old fixtures are always interesting for me. You can learn a lot from them be it the taped solder line splices in a cyc to the sheet metal work in how it was done.


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## gafftaper (Mar 13, 2007)

I've got a set of four Century fresnels from maybe the 50's in my garage. One of these days I'm going to do the remodel and build my dream rec-room. I'm going to rewire them and use them to light the room. 


One of the coolest displays at LDI this fall was Vari-Lite's booth. They had every model they have made on display. The best being the one and only VL-0 that they used for that legendary demo for Genesis one cold night in a barn in 1981. They had the cover off and there sure wasn't much to it on the inside. They say it still works but it's not exactly show worthy anymore.


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## Sylak (Mar 14, 2007)

The TV Studio in my school uses old HUB Electric Scoops with Edison plugs, definably the oldest fixtures ive used thus far.

Although, i have no idea when they're from but from before mid 80's when HUB liquidated
(probably form 60's from when the school was built, but then again they were probably used from the Middle School which was the High School at the time)


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## taylorjacobs (Mar 14, 2007)

a couple of years ago we had a theatre festival in a really old theatre and they had 3 carbon arc spots. they were fully functional and still used them it was pretty cool


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## Van (Mar 14, 2007)

gafftaper said:


> .........One of the coolest displays at LDI this fall was Vari-Lite's booth. They had every model they have made on display. The best being the one and only VL-0 that they used for that legendary demo for Genesis one cold night in a barn in 1981. They had the cover off and there sure wasn't much to it on the inside. They say it still works but it's not exactly show worthy anymore.


 
I don't remember if I posted it on here or not. I was talking With Gordon Pearlman one night before a tech rehearsal, he was telling me some stories and related this little known fact to me. Did you know the original varilite was not intended to be a "moving light" it was a light that you could "re-focus" during a show but it was meant to be static. It was purely by mistake that somebody left the shutters open on one when they were demo-ing them to Genesis . Somebody say "Cool", and the rest is history. 

Sorry hijack over.


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## church (Mar 15, 2007)

check out the Strand archive at www.strandarchive.co.uk It shows a history of the Strand fixtures. I have used the old Strand 1kW barrel floods (acting area flood) these were already old when I was a kid in the 60s. I have also used floods and spots made by Major in the 40s and I own some radial Lekos by strand and electro controls that are pretty old but still work well. A lot of the old stuff was built like a battleship and withstands all sorts of abuse. I also have painful memories of running shows with Resistance boards that used locking dimmers onto shafts for the Master and lengths of broom handle. We used to get really hot with 36 channels of 2.4kW resistance dimming and no air conditioning.

I also once owned a souvenir from an old theatre - a salt water dimmer. They were glazed clay pipe filled with a concentrated salt solution and the operator lowered a copper rod into the salt water to change the light intensity. It was about 30 inches long.

The main thing is we had some good laughs.


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## Logos (Mar 16, 2007)

I don't know what make they are but I recently acquired a set of dismountable footlights from an old town hall built in the 1920's. They each have a three pin panel mount plug one side and a socket the other and you simply keep stacking them until you have enough. Recipe for nightmare. The old town hall apparently originally had Mercury bath dimmers which lasted into the 1960's. The lanterns take standard Edison screw 150 or 200 watt globes. I haven't tried to use them yet. I'm still trying to figure out how to test them for electrical safety.


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## mattm (Mar 17, 2007)

Paul Pelletier has a photo gallery of antique lighting fixtures and consoles:

http://www.pbase.com/paulpelletier/lightingoldies

Matt McCormick
www.cablepick.com


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## ship (Mar 19, 2007)

I just picked up for a service call a classic +/-1920's Olivette with the triangluar inside surfaces (not painted) with 18" square gel frame. (No name brand on it, but has origional mounting hardware & knob.) From what I read in Fuchs' this is going to be the pre-1929 form of this fixture - ln newer styles as of 1929 at least in being newer, more modern ones have parabolic reflectors instead of just the angled reflector. 


Was thinking that I would fix it up for the community theater that has a use for wash lights now that for the most part all but like 20 of their oldest fixtures have been re-wired and made servicable - this given well over like 150 in the inventory, and not enough dimmers to nearly power everything up. Something like 30 or 50 Fresnels alone for a like 30'x20' black box stage that so far doesn't even have any FOH lighting positions. Lekos date from the 1960's to today in all forms. Top hit is my 3.5Q5's of course with the HPR 575/115v lamps - they out punch and are more useful than the Shakespeare's in the inventory, or supplement them over the 360Q's and 360 type fixtures, though the 4.5x6.5 radial Century fixtures I would put to use at least... Fascinating... believe they have been getting the local vaudville house's scrap fixtures for the last 50 years or so. Place has more fixtures than they know what to do with - which often means just leaving them rust away in storage.

Another thing on my punch list is to do a 1.2Kw upgrade to the Altman 1000 follow spot that just sits in a corner. They use their ancient carbon arc spotlight (without ventilation) instead. Just kind of took away some of the ceiling tiles to allow the ozone to escape into the drop ceiling... Don't want the fixture for my collection but as a public service, I gotta get them at least a bit more modern. It's only like a 25' throw, you don't need the light of a carbon arc. Upgrading the Altman 1000 should prevent people with breathing problems from dying if they sit in the audience as a concept... Yep, this theater needs a lot more help than I have time to help with. There is an improvement schedule and budget for it, but it has to be tactfully done given it's a community theater that has been around for like 50 years now, and the origional tinkerers are still there.

But I'm more and more thinking that I'll trade the light for both of my 10" scoops - which are currently on loan to the theater anyway and in excellent condition, though I went silver instead of white for the reflector. That way I own it and can add it to the shop's and my antique fixture collection. It is an antique and not a great fixture to light modern shows with unless you needed a specific look in which case the fixture could be once safe, loaned to the theater - but it's time to retire it from active service. Or at least storage in a closet.

The theater I'll of course ask permission from in doing this trade but they no doubt will find more value in not spending any money on wiring this fixture and instead taking the scoops that are sized for the theater and already in use. Also in a PC way allows me to approach the subject of, yes I did loan them to the theater for a production - with lamps I bought and money invested in fixing them up, that was like a year ago. As opposed to my dimmers and Lekos they did buy, these they did not. 

This fixture was sitting in the back of a closet under some boxes anyway. This old fixture along with I count seven Altman 101's though they could also and at least some of them are a 1920's box spotlight given the open faced (no lens) design of a rusty one I moved today. They are stored in the damp basement. Every time I take them up stairs, someone else brings them back down... Them was my carrot on a stick in what I want to wire, but I'm thinking instead I'll trade like five of my Altman #65Q's for seven of the PC fixtures in need of a major service call. They don't need more Fresnels but could E-Bay them off in getting cash, this as opposed to the PC fixtures that would in me owning them still be available for use, only on my dime for re-wiring and repairing them.

While not "Antique's Roadshow" by way of making antique fixtures servicable, given asbestos is a bad thing, so is rust, I take the alternate to leaving in origional condition if it's un-safe. My Dyna Beam follow spot is mint and not rusting, and the only asbestos part is the wire leads next to the lamp. these... Hopefully such an offer will be considered fair enough to make the trade - it's a shame to see them just sitting atop a shelf and rusting away in a basement.

Seemingly a few gel frames and other assemblies to misc. odd old fixtures also there all rusting in the basement that I'm slowly getting time to investigate, make servicable or trade for what is servicable. Guess I'm converting my personal light fixture inventory into an antique fixture inventory instead. Tons of barn doors and top hats also - ur... doesn't anyone use such things at this theater, why are they not prepped and ready to go?

Almost as many 1920's antique fixture styles as at the Athanaeum Theater in Chicago also rusting away in a basement. They have a few arc light spotlights and incandescent spotlights plus some of my above Olivettes in the same pre-parabolic reflector type, and a Kliegl Dynabeam (w/o boomerang) under the audience. Somewhere else in the building is a origional and theorized to still work Eisenhower light board. If anyone gets a chance to see a show or work in that space, talk to Clyde - he is a legend in Chicago theater and can show you the antiques he is proud of. At least the light board, the light fixtures are rusting away. He also is last known to own cases upon cases worth of early 1960's radial Lekos that he might be willing to sell to anyone looking for antiques. My next step is to make Clyde an offer for his antique lights and see if once the shop really does a museum, if they will buy his light board. He might be willing given he knows I will give them a good home and was trained by him. Gotta get them lights out of the basement where lime from the morter just seeps off the brick walls in a fine powder.

Just cut off the asbestos whip on this Olivette which was somehow spliced to a dry rotted 16/3 type SO cord and open faced Edison plug. Last time it was used, such a concept was that this fixture was servicable. Didn't look under the electrical tape to see if crimp splice or older solder splice, didn't want to know. 

Believe I even have an extra four spoke boom base for it, though the boom with cable hook and top of boom mounted clutch is no doubt long gone, the fixture otherwise looks fairly origional. Perhaps a good clean up of the building will lead to such items.

Thus what I believe is the oldest fixture I have ever worked on to date - sitting in my garage, waiting for me to start by cleaning off years upon years worth of dust and cob webs from it. How can lighting tech people not take care of their gear like that?


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## gafftapegreenia (Mar 19, 2007)

Oh man, ship, your my hero. You got an Olivette. I really really want to see pics. I believe the flat reflector Olivettes were made at least until 1965, theres an old cateloge on klieglbros.com to prove so. They also have an early 1913-1914 cateloge with carbon arc Olivettes. As I understand it, the first true "Kliegl Light" that made the company famous wasn't their ERS's, but their first open box arc floods.

Also there is an a page of info for an Altman Olivette under Altman's "Whats Old" section, and being as Altman only dates form the 50's, it can't be older than that. In that same 1950's Kliegl Cateloge the only available boxfloods were parabolic. I'm still kicking myself for not getting that pallet full of old boxfloods on ebay a year ago. If you ever do open a museum, I'll be first in line.

1965
http://www.klieglbros.com/catalogs/t61/t61p23.jpg

1913-1914
http://www.klieglbros.com/catalogs/G/gm67.jpg

I still wonder where that name came from.


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## ship (Mar 19, 2007)

The owner has two what I believe to be Pratt 123's in the oldest form - though I did some damage to one at the yoke clamp fitting in mounting a C-Clamp and I think I re-wired them also. Three Reich & Vogul scene machines with all of their origional accessories and gel.

Got some Major and Chicago brand PC fixtures, my Dyna Beam, two Century 8x16 cannons, a Bantam Superspot, a few older brands of Fresnel (and a box full of Fresnels such as from Berkley I have not gone thru yet the theater owns but would be willing to trade for modern ones I'm sure. Last comment about this box of odd Fresnels was that if they are not the standard type, the theater should give them to a needy theater. I responded with an interst to trade than E-Bay instead of giving away. This much less out of liability I would not allow such a give away until they were safe.) A few more fixtures here and there in stock at work owned by me, others or work, plus rock & roll touring type lighting history type gear here and there all over the place. 

Saw some Martin 1220's pass thru the doors to the service department a few weeks ago, can no doubt get at least one if there isn't one already in storage. Also saw some huge like 10' long carbon arc follow spots return from a show a few months ago as brought back from some theater by one of our touring people. He took them home but no doubt would free up one for the museum. 

Also am storing a few more modern fixtures that "don't exist" in the company inventory that could be made available for trade in getting more antiques once the museum concept that's officially appoved of as of two years ago goes into effect. Got a Strand 1990's fixture brand new and never used for instance that could acquire something for trade. The community theater on the other hand for instance has two different lots of Century Fresnel, one with a yellow/silver name plate rivited to the top of the fixture, another with it stamped into the sheet metal. Both just went thru my service call of all similar to Altman 65 fixtures, thus I know about them as opposed to box of other Fresnels yet to deal with. I took special effort in masking tape off the logo plate - this after scraping off the flaking paint both already on the name plate and in general on the fixture. Two Altman 65Q's in the non-inventory as long as viewed as non-existing inventory should take care of acquiring them for trade. Non-inventory stays the same, two 6" Fresnels, just different brand. I have some lattitude as long as I verify permission for such a thing first. My boss the Equipment Manager would probably rather not deal with the issue, the General Manager and Owner are more the interested parties that also gave origional approval to this concept. Now just a question of some space for the fixtures.

Got room in the front office for my "lobby sculpture" as it were - the follow spot and cannons, but this would take coordination with the "designer" for the front office and we don't really talk. The rest of at least the fixtures for the moment are more just stuff that would be I-Beam clamped to the parimiter ceiling joists over my and the hoist department. What area was origionally designated as "antique" area is long gone in us already having out-grown the current five building complex and having gone back to storage trailers. No floor space left given floor to ceiling storage already and still not enough.


More antiques in storage I probably forget about including lots of antique moving lights and light boards.

Gonna be a little while before I can have the antique fixture museum a fact. Some need some attention, otherwise it just requires becoming caught up. 

One of these days however... yep, a museum it will be. For now, I'm keeping my eyes open and collecting.


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## ship (Mar 19, 2007)

gafftapegreenia said:


> I still wonder where that name came from.



Amazon or E-Bay a copy of Fulchs' if not some of the books on lighting equipment by McCandless. Both are from the same 1920 to 1930's era. Doesn't really matter what year the copy you get, all are the same origional version. Not "A Method of Lighting The Stage", by McCandless while a good book to get and has been upgraded over the years as to what fixture is what, more like "Equipment for Lighting the Stage", or "Syllibus for Lighting the Stage" that go into more detail about the gear and theater itself, or possibly better yet, Fulch's "Stage Lighting."

Fulch's has the answer to this question, much less is a darned good read. Read the answer to this question just tonight in fact. Stuff you won't find in modern stage lighting books.


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## gafftapegreenia (Mar 19, 2007)

Theatrical lighting and history, two of my favorite subjects, doesn't get much better. I really will try to get a copy of those books.


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## BenFranske (Mar 20, 2007)

I checked and Theodore Fuchs renewed the 1929 copyright on Stage Lighting in 1956 meaning it will not enter the public domain until 2024 (another fine example of our broken copytright system but I digress). Fuchs died in 1995 so he can't be contacted but if someone can locate an heir to his copyrights and we can get permission I will personally ensure the book gets posted online as a free book. Thre only clues I have to go on is Fuchs was a professor at Northwestern University and his personal papers (which would be quite interesting to look through) are housed in a special collection at the Lee Library at Brigham Young University in Utah.


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## ship (Mar 20, 2007)

cool, that means I have both versions. That's interesting knowledge you were able to find out. Where did you find this info out?

Any other books from him to search for beyond "Home Built Lighting Equipment" c.1939?

Also bought this, has not gotten here yet in being late.


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## BenFranske (Mar 20, 2007)

I know there is some other stuff by Fuchs for example this theater management handbook and that he won the USITT award in 1980 but I'm nto aware of any other major publications. You might want to check this site at SD Northern for more suggested books though. Also, this site has more history about theatrical lighting.


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## ship (Mar 30, 2007)

So here it is - the c.1920's +/- Ovalite. (It's up side down. The top knob is made to mount to a stand.)

There is no name plate or brand stamped on it, the casting is fairly rough as with the metal work. The reflector is un-painted, it's the older design w/o the upgraded reflector. I'm thinking that it limits it to somewhere between say 1910 and at most say 1947 where metal working and casting will have improved/neater and brand names such as on the cast yoke knob will have had a brand. Most likely, I would think it's from the 1920's or before given the noting of white paint on the reflector in the Fuchs book of the similar to this fixture.

Most likely because it's history is most likely from one of three sources. Either a 1920's vaudville house or a 1880's college in the area. Third source would be from the Lyric Opera in Chicago - I have other equipment by them that wound up at the college which than wound up at the community theater.


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## gafftapegreenia (Mar 30, 2007)

To think that was high technology at one point, makes a Scoop look like a high class instrument. 

What's the wattage on the current lamp? If it's not a 1000 watter might you get one of those monsters to make it 'authentic'? I wonder if theres any halogen lamps that would work while keeping the source in the middle of the box.


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## ship (Mar 31, 2007)

The PC's on the parallel topic of used gear retailer are more modern. Not Colortran, I'm thinking something like Colorlite or something like that as a brand starting with C. Besides, that is not a classic PC' These photos are PC's. Note the first is my Bantam Superspot' - a fixture that I have no info about but am told there was a variety of lens train and slide projector options to. I have seen the slide projector option - really cool. Concept being it's much like a Fresnel - just has a PC lens in it. The second one is the more classic style of PC that could be either incandescent or carbon arc by look - in this case from Major. It's length was cut down by about 1/3 at some point in the 1960's (why they didn't move the yoke...) none the less, believe they wanted a wider focus.

Follow up to the question earlier this week about a ETC Leko becoming a PC, what's the major difference between a Leko and a PC?



You realize that I'll have to clean like 20 years of dust off the lamp to find the wattage right? 300 Watt... about the maximum the black box space could no doubt deal with.

I would say that this lamp is not the proper lamp for the fixture, note how it's not centered. I'm thinking that the origional lamp was even larger yet - something in the range of a PS-52 sized if not carbon filament version of a DKZ.


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## ship (Mar 31, 2007)

On retrofitting... I know this guy with an amazing tool box, he can fix anything! (Trivia question of the day... what movie - and this most likely will tell your age.) 
I can put just about any lamp at the center of a reflector and frequently have to convert between Euro fixtures that don't have 120v equivolents to 120v versions by re-engineering the base/lamp. All a question of lamp specifications, measuring seat height and adding spacer blocks, than reverse engineering. Could do almost any type of lamp at the center of this or any other fixture as could anyone else. Attached is photos of a 10Kw Mole Richardson Fresnel that came out of Werner Brothers Studios/E-Bay in totally trashed condition which needed to be cleaned up, re-wired and lamped down to 1Kw. Also other production photos such as lamp base re-surfacing and what ever else from the project was of interest. On this project, it was like a 5" difference in LCL between a 1K/2K lamp and a 10K lamp. Once you know the difference in Lamp Center Length and the height to the bench part of the lamp and the bottom of the lamp base - the rest is either jacking up or sinking down the lamp's center to compensate - easy enough. This was one of many 10K and 5K fresnels by Mole and Bambino that had to go either 1 or 2K prop light for the Mellencamp tour a few years ago. 

That's also why I love my career - they pay me to tinker with stuff when not at my computer in inspecting bad lamps, spending money for more and studying lamp specs. While fixing stuff without a budget persay, this hours on end, you tend to have time to think out solutions to problems or other ways to do things. This much less lots of time to figure out how to or why it's done the way it is.

Working on something in the planning stages for another tour that's a few months out at the moment while working on gear for another tour. In gear, I'll be building lighting fixtures I designed from scratch. Fabrication shop will do the steel work to my design for the fixture, I'll wire it. That's always fun - developing a light fixture from scratch that does a world tour. 



Added photos.... other PC's the PC from Chicago Stage Lighting, A CYX lamp that still worked but I was asked... Gee, "should I replace it?" etc.


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## ship (Mar 31, 2007)

and another fixture a Pratt 23' I believe


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## Chris15 (Mar 31, 2007)

ship said:


> (Trivia question of the day... what movie - and this most likely will tell your age.)



Can one assume that Ship is not referring to Bob the Builder? Or is he?


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## ship (Mar 31, 2007)

Yep, it can be thus assumed that Chris is a young pup. Think amazing ta' ta's in an offensive (sorry - memorable moment to guys) but hint sort of way while a guy in the movie thinks about them...- jumps off the diving board... after doing so, than in reality she enters the washroom to clear some water out of her ears and by mistake interrupts the dream sequence.... Very important movie for a generation - even over Rock and Roll High School. And a part of most broadcast versions of the movie they would tend to cut out while still keeping to the "MR. Hand" part and his deal with "My time" verses "Our time" plus pizza.


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## Logos (Mar 31, 2007)

Interesting, the nose of your Pratt 23 looks a lot like the nose of the classic Strand Patt 23 from the UK and Aus. (60's Lantern). What dates do you reckon the Pratt comes from? There was also a Furse Light version and an Adelaide guy called Bunny Aust prodiuced a version in the sixties. Still a few around. The Strand, Furse and Aust versions were all 500W.


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## ship (Mar 31, 2007)

You realize that these fixtures are like 14' up on a shelving in the shop that by plan would have pleanty of room to fit everything within easy reach... Says Strand on them if I remember correctly, beyond that and screwing up one of two by way of yoke mounting them to C-Clamp at some point, never really had much of a extensive look at them beyond... snip there goes the asbestos. Old Strand paint, beyond that... don't know, could be, most likely not. They were a present for the owner of the company that got sent my way. Beyond that, I just store them next to the 2Kw Mole Ellipsos and other misc. non-inventory fixtures until such a day I hang them on display.


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## pyrus (Apr 12, 2007)

I actually found a very old stage fixture in my garage. the lamp was blown, but I cannot find a replacement. The lamp was an SC bayonet type with a 2" globe made by GE, I don't suppose anybody knows where I might find such an animal would they? I contacted the manufacturer, and they said they had no record of even making such a lamp. 

I will edit later with the specifics of the instrument (I have to dig it out again first).


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## ship (Apr 13, 2007)

Something like this lamp?
100G16½/29SC	G.E. #18717 (disc.)	CL, Incd.	100 w	G-16.1/2	cc-13	LCL 1.3/8"	SC Bay	Base Down to Horz. 1,660 Lum	200hr

Still some SC bayonet lamps out there that would fit correctly in the fixture, just not the G-16.1/2 globular lamp. Lots of T-8 and S-11 shaped lamps instead.

Could also change out the lamp base if in bad condition for a DC bayonet base and have lots more options in halogen lamps available.


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## pianoman (Jun 3, 2007)

Hello all, first post. I searched for Olivettes on google and came across this thread. I just recently picked up two Olivettes for free from the theatre at my university, and have disassembled them to repaint the inside, clean it, and rewire it. They came complete with asbestos cable with rusty stagepin plugs on the wires. They appear to be from two different generations; the two bulb bases are slightly different. One is kind of banged up too, but it's all right. I plan on using these for a movie project some friends of mine are doing, along with some Kliegl ellipsoidals that I got from the same theatre (they have tons but never use them now that they have source 4's). I'm not really sure how old mine are; could be from the sixties if the theatre bought them originally since it was built around 1968, or they could have gotten them from somewhere else; I have no idea and no way of telling. I do know that evidently several people have repainted the inside with silver paint, which made removing the old rusty hardware difficult to say the least. A lot of the bolts I ended up cutting off with a dremel tool, and I'll buy new hardware later when I get to that point. I took off the old iron curved pieces on the fixtures to mount them to stands because I plan on drilling holes in the top to use them with C-clamps. From the looks of the kliegl catalog I saw online, it looks like this was one of the ways you could get these lights anyway.

So, here's my real question about these: when I wire these up to an edison plug, where can I connect a ground wire? I'm not quite sure where I would connect this to on the fixture. Also, is there anywhere that I could get a gel frame for these? I need to use some diffusion gels on them, but I can't find a frame for that. Anyone have a couple spares?

Thanks,
Dan


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## ship (Jun 3, 2007)

There no doubt was a photo of a ovalite with a description of the two major types. Welcome to the forum also, hopefully you will long be able to help others just as curious in time as you are now.

Urr. stop don't remove the cast stand yoke and replace it by drilling for a standard two sided yoke. Instead just use the one sided yoke - remember base up, and make up a clamp that will still hang but preserve the intregrety of this antique without destroying it.

One side just requires slightly more steel on that side as opposed to less on two sides to keep it in place as per the fixture design. To drill it out for a yoke, ... might as well put catchup on a hot dog or more realistically replace all Lekos for Par can's in easier to maintain and being a sin for those in the future who get what you screwed up.

Two bulb bases are either a screw up by way of someone before you, or a slightly different fixture that's within concept of what will have been useful but not a pure Ovallite as the fore runner to what is todays' scoop.

If in gel frames a question about having extra gel frames for this fixure... it's a 1900's invention, most likely not extra if even any gel frames for such fixures. Cut and rivet or weld up your own - simple enough and more cost effective. While doing so, if you intend to use this fixture, you need a safety screen for it which by todays standards would protect the talent against large chunks of hot glass should this lamp fail catestropically. Simple as another gel frame added to the fixture that has hardware cloth or at least chicken wire welded or encased within it sufficient to keep back any large chunks of glass should the bulb fail.



On the ground wire, that's for the most part acceptable to modify the antique gear in having, as with giving the piece a proper strain relief. Normal placement of the grounding wire would be bolting within say three inches of the lamp base or within a few inches of where it enters the fixture dependant upon the fixture and best place to put the ground. Often, the closer the better to where the conductors terminate. Thru bolting for a 10-32 screw with lock washers is the norm without so much going into my own ways of doing it.

Have a look at your lamp base contacts also in if needed a replacement or cleaning and re-surfacing if needed.

If asking about a gel frame for the Kliegl fixtures, if 6" it's the normal 7.1/2" gel frames most fixtures or 6" in Leko or Fresnel or PAR 56 use. If on a 8" fixture, its' the same gel frame as a 8" Leko or Fresnel or PAR 64. There was a standardization of gel frame sizes in Lekos.

Best of luck and read much into the details of re-wiring, more to it than just adding new wires, or in disposal and removal of the asbestos than what's easy in doing it correctly.


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## pianoman (Jun 3, 2007)

Thanks for the info. I was wondering if I would have to fashion my own gel frames...I'll have to work on that. Wood would be the easiest for me since I don't really weld, but it's probably not a very safe idea either. Great suggestion on the hardware cloth too.

I had tried and failed to think of a way to clamp the light using the existing hardware. I'm just not quite sure how I can clamp to that little bolt on there and keep it secure. I'd be open to any suggestions; I really didn't want to drill holes either, I just thought it would be the only way. I tried coming up with some sort of system where I would use two metal washers and two rubber washers surrounding an eye bolt that fit into the c-clamp, and then you could tighten the bolt on the fixture hardware to keep it from moving around the eye bolt, but I can't seem to find hardware that fits; I'm thinking it's something like a 9/16" thread on there. Additionally, the only eye bolts that would fit the clamp had eyes that were waaaay too big. I guess I'm just at a loss for ideas. Help?

-Dan

P.S.: even though they're old and comparatively inefficient, I do love these old Kliegl instruments. My personal favorites are the fresnels though; they have a much more even light transmission than the modern altman's or others. Unfortunately, I do not have any of those fresnels yet...someday though.


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## ship (Jun 4, 2007)

"Somday though", yep another budding collector that apriciates what was done. Not always better but sometimes in often a less refined way of doing it, interesting unique qualities to what was done.

Just further inspeced my own Ovalite, that flowering knob is rusted solid to the bottom of the fixture mounted horn like shape to the bracket. Could be that it's 1/2-13 threads per inch or the more ancient 1/2-12 old English standard you still run across these days at times by way of China import. McMaster Carr I believe if not stocking such bolts can get them reasionably cheap. This given I have thrown out all 1/2-12 bolts and nuts hopefully I have gotten over the years in really throwing a wrench into the system.

Theoretically it's 1/2-13 in thread but 1/2-12 is a possibility to be aware of if a standard if 1/2-13 doesn't thread properly. Doubtful it's a 9/16 of what ever thread though possible and still exists even back than not used much.

Ok, let's solve the problems. First, most say 1Kw DKZ lamps you might use are universal burn meaning that in installing a modern lamp, it wont' matter what position the lamp is in - it will matter slightly what position the fixture is in by way of proper cooling however. If the case that it won't be on long, you can burn base down. Most other lamps down to 300w you might use are also either universal burn or burn base up so that also should not be a problem. Check the lamps if you got any with the fixtures for this noting on the upper part of the bulb should it be different.

What's said kind of concerns me about wiring skill, have what you do inspected by a qualified electrician or the staff of where you got the fixtures from. There are little details that need to be seen in making a safe fixture which cannot be conveyed. Yes... you can use lumber but it's not the best idea and the local home center should have sufficient if not oversized steel suitible to have welded up or to rivet. Most welding shops can knock out gel frames for you cheaply.

On the yoke bracket, if your's is like mine in having the bracket on the bottom, the old books show a steel bracket used for underhang. This would be safe enough as a bent piece of 1/4" x 2" mild steel bent to go between the bottom bracket and say a C-Clamp. This all given the above possibility of using the fixture upside down. The theater you got the fixtures from would no dubt be able to bend this plate for you sufficiently.

My fixture has a standoff between the stop point on the bracket and where the knob stops in threading. I would recommend a single or double Unistrut washer available from any home center in taking up the gap if not a piece of 1/2" plate that's drilled. The less washers and other things to fill in the gap, the more stable your mount.

Let's get into concept in how this yoke works. This of course given your as per question of the day question of mine question of what part it is, if missing like mine, that part that goes between the fixture and the stand is missing, it is a problem as with my fixtures. Otherwise, it would be easy to either stand mount the fixtures and or use that part to start what ever is needed in making it go hang.

As a concept, the cast bell of the fixture goes to a wide flat area which for all intensive purposes is a clutch cam. Rubber don't like heat but will work for a short amount of time. With a clutch cam as still used on most Mole Richardson type studio lighting fixtures and most all audience blinders of what ever brand, the wide surface area of this joint provides friction in preventing such a joint from moving once tight. Works well in fact, but often there is some kind of silicone or teflon or other fiber pad added so as to prevent friction while adjusting. Surface area is surface area in keeping the fixture from moving, a padding between surfaces doesn't overall prove detrement to this, although some heavier or more off balance fixtures such as this might not use one and instead use a kind of clutch/jaw method. Little teeth used to keep into position.

For this fixture, I might not add anything given the position of the single yoke. This might benefit by the friction more.

Added to the fixture, you need no doubt to also find a place to mount a safety cable.

Again good luck with the project and old fixtures you have under your caretaking at this point. First do no harm, than make them servicable. This followed by if you cannot afford to do it properly, don't do it as best you can in knowing better but making a temporary fix anyway. This also followed by if you don't know what you are doing you shouldn't be doing it, seek supervision. Most scary of all is not knowing better and having to learn by your mistakes. Had a multitude of my own over the years, it's hoped that others don't make the mistakes I have made in re-learning the same things, but on the other hand it's an eyes on the project type of thing and only so much one can help on-line.

No offense but a definate warning, this coming from the supervisor of a department that wires cable and fixtures for a living. Just had to fire one of my assistants this weekend and have to re-wire all of the cable she has made in the last month or two. Almost killed someone 30' up by way of what she numorously was taught how to do yet it would seem she still didn't get it. This with supervision and instruction. There is no learning curve, only proper supervision and instruction, than learning the trade or gone. What's theoretically safe only comes after instruction and experience. Shouldn't be a learning curve in doing stuff safely for what others risk their lives in what you learn with.

I urdge you to have what you attempt inspected if not get prior guidance in what you are doing before you attempt it. No offense but after some time such a concept will also be shared I'm sure.


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## pianoman (Jun 4, 2007)

Thanks for all the information! I did finally figure out a way to use the c-clamp with the existing hardware: I have a 5/8 flat washer, 5/8 rubber washer, 1/2 dia. 2" eye bolt, 5/8 rubber washer, 5/8 flat washer, and a metric sized nut sandwiched together on the existing threaded rod coming out horizontally. This provides me a vertical threaded piece (the eye bolt) to screw the c-clamp onto. The metric bolt seems to work fine, but it is just a tad loose, so I might look into some of the "older" bolt threadings you mentioned in 1/2" size. This sandwich configuration I came up with provides a nice friction fit which you can loosen and adjust to give the ability to move the instrument up or down (can't remember if this is referred to as pan or tilt). I think for a safety cable I will loop it through a couple of the vent holes on the top of the instrument, since there's no yoke for me to attach to. I will make sure and have the wiring checked, but the only real different thing I'm doing in this case is adding a ground, which from what I understand, should be bolted to the chassis somewhere near the lamp base. Correct me if I'm wrong here. Additionally, as I understand it, polarity on incandescent fixtures is not important so long as one wire is positive and one is negative. I have 16/3 SOOW cable to do the wiring, which may be a bit small, but I don't think that 14/3 would fit through the holes in the top, and the cable run will only be about 3 feet. I will check out welding places to see if they can punch a few frames for me; that would be ideal, but the TD at the theatre I got these from said that he has used luon (sic?) wood for gel frames with no problems before, so I may be able to do this.

One item of concern is heat dissipation. If I hang the light as I intend to (upside down) with a 405W PS40 lamp, the heat will of course rise to the top of the fixture, but it appears that all the heat venting area is at the bulb base, since it was intended to be used base up. I would like to be able to use these lights possibly for extended periods of time, so that's why the base down issue concerns me. I could try to mount them upside-down on the pipe, but I'd rather not, as that seems like a sort of precarious position, and since c-clamps are not really intended to work like that either. Can I get by using the instrument hung base down, or do I need to figure out a way to use it base up? As an additional note, I plan on using a hardware cloth screen and diffusion gel on this lamp, but I will maintain the inch or so gap between the edge of the reflector and the gel frame track to help some with heat.

I will try to post some pictures of all this stuff soon!

-Dan


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## ship (Jun 4, 2007)

Correct on the ground, incorrect on polarity and positive or negative. This is alternating current, there is no positive and negative only hot conductors and grounding conductors (the neutral.) Given this is a screw base lamp, there is a defianate polarity to this fixture. The hot (black) always goes to the center bottom contact on the screw base, the neutral always goes to the screw base shell. This way when un-screwing the lamp from the fixture, there is no chance that should your hand touch the screw base on the lamp you will get a shock.

16/3 SOOW cable while rated for the amperage is not rated for the temperature. Stamped on the cable you will see 90C, that’s the temperature rating of the wire. A 500w lamp will get much hotter than that. Your local or internet theater supplier will sell heat wire. This either as a multi-conductor cable such as a 14/3 200c wire or individual conductor heat wire such as SF-2 at 200c also where you would use a fiberglass sleeve on it just as if a modern Leko. They should also have in stock 3/8" NPT cord grip strain reliefs that would fit your hole possibly with drilling it out some. There are other options for strain relief and above types of thing but those are the most common ones.

Again, them minor details that come with experience, training and supervision. SOOW wire inside this fixture would be dangerous to use.

Luan Mahagony Plywood. Yes it would work as a gel frame - technically you are supposted to flame treat all exposed surfaces of it, better not to introduce lumber to a up to 1Kw rated lighting fixture. The second outer gel frame slide on the fixture would be a good place to mount the gel with the first for the hardware cloth - best in it’s own gel frame. This will help let the heat out and you tend to want some gap between the hardware cloth and the gel or the hardware cloth will burn thru your gel.

Very familiar with this 405w street light lamp, debatable about base up or base down in using the fixture given heat. Again back to the concept of the 1/4" x 2" mild steel that is bent to go into the fixture mount, than bent around the side of the frame and comes to the top with a ½" hole in it to mount a C-Clamp on. This would be sufficient to properly hang the fixture.

As opposed to all the concepts you have so far with Eye Bolts, just drill the strap for your bottom knob, perhaps add a Unistrut washer or two as a spacer and you now have the fixture mounted properly and sufficiently strong it will hang correctly. Think of a large C-Shape to the steel that bends around the fixture and comes to the top for your C-Clamp. Kind of a half yoke only it’s mounting to the fixture at the bottom and mounting to the clamp at the top. If worried that the 1/4"x2" piece of steel would be strong enough, a 5/16"x2" piece of steel will be just as easy to get bent to fit the fixture. Again your local welding shop or possibly the theater will be able to bend such steel easily.


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## pianoman (Jun 4, 2007)

I don't quite understand your proposition for making a yoke for this instrument. Are you suggesting that I take said mild steel, attach it to the existing fixture mount at the "proper" bottom of the instrument, wrap it around the back to the "top" side, and drill a hole in the top side to mount it to? or something else? Could you possibly make a diagram? Sorry I'm a bit thick in the head on this one...

-Dan


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## ship (Jun 4, 2007)

Yep, what you describe would be fine but I was thinking off to the side of the fixture instead of around the rear of the fixture for this bracket.

Starting at the bottom of the fixture - if your horn is like mine it is a right angle from the bottom of the fixture.

Look at it from the front of the fixture in side view of the bracket.

(The dots are your fixture. The dashes and I's are your bracket.)

------
. . . . I
. . . . I
. . . . I
. . . . I
. . . . I
------
I

(This is a half view of the fixture, consider the dots area double this width and mainly showing the shape of the bracket.

Your bracket from the bottom of the fixture is vertical and has a hole drilled it so it fits into the bracket. A bend say off to the left so it's horizontal and headed towards the side of the fixture. Another bend right so it goes vertical again once it clears the fixture. You are than headed towards the top of the fixture. Another bend right so you head horizontal at the top of the fixture and end in a hole for a C-Clamp once that hole is back at the center but now top of the fixture.


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## SteveB (Jun 4, 2007)

gafftapegreenia said:


> Whats the oldest fixture anyone has seen/used?



When I was on tour with the musical Chicago, decades ago, I got to operate the very, very old and original follow spots at the Shea's Theater in Buffalo (pre-renovation).

Made by Hall and Connolly, they were a lime green carbon arc, whose carbon rods were about 1/2" in diameter (as opposed to 1/4" for Super Troupers). These units were set up with positive rods feeding from the bottom on a diagonal (same as the carbon Strong Gladiators), with crank feeds to override the DC motors. I wouldn't be surprised if the entire unit was DC. The color frame assembly was a hand made wood box mounted on the front of the unit, with 6 rectangular wooden color frames that slid in to place via a string on a horizontal slider arrangement - similar to an Abacus. The iris and dowsers were wooden handled and the entire unit could be operated from either left side or right side. A great light !.

Next in line for cool early gear I got to use was the first generation of Strand-Century (US) computer lighting consoles - the Multi-Q and Micro-Q. This is the generation just prior to Light Pallette. The Multi-Q used 8" floppy disks.

We only recently stopped using our Strong carbon Super Troupers in 2001. They just got donated to a theater in Staten Island (NYC). Replaced with Lycian 3kw xenons. MUCH better unit, the Lycian !.

Still in use is the very first generation of Strand-Century double ended, quartz halogen ground rows. Originally configured for glass color media with 1" horizontal strips, in soldered together aluminum frames, that came in Red, Blue and Green. Very low profile. Eats color !.

Steve Bailey
Brooklyn College


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## pianoman (Jun 4, 2007)

ship-

I think I understand your bracket now. My only question is, if you're drilling a hole in the top that the bolt for the c-clamp will pass through, as well as the yoke, what is the point of the yoke? Extra support? Also, wouldn't drilling the hole destroy some of the historical value of the instrument? I'm not second guessing you at all, I'm just confused as usual. I'm assuming also that the hole would be drilled through the triangular piece that extends up from the top of the light to cover the vent holes, or would it need to go through both layers?

I finally have some pictures of the lights and my current rigging setup as well...I just have to put them on some web server so I can share them here.

-Dan


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## pianoman (Jun 4, 2007)

Here's some images. The first is of my current rigging setup; the second is the hardware that was attached to the instrument. I have a new question regarding that as well: this hardware has a lag to it, i.e. there is a segment that is not threaded. In order to make the yoke I would need to either put a spacer in here or find something that will fit in there to replace that piece, which so far I have not found. Any ideas?
-Dan


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## pianoman (Jun 5, 2007)

I just had an idea.

Instead of drilling holes, why not make a sort of conventional yoke, upside-down?

Something like this:
--C--
I......I
I......I
I......I
I......I
I__|--

My diagram isn't quite as good, but essentially, you would have a square "O" around the instrument, where at the top where the C-clamp is connected, the two sides would overlap, and at the bottom where the yoke would connect to the older hardware, you would have a sort of dogleg, so at the bottom it would go horizontal, up, horizontal, and at the top there would be two overlapping sides that are held together through the C-clamp. With this setup, you're basically using the light as it would have been used in terms of attachment, and it gives the ability to adjust the light up or down some by loosening the nut at the bottom dogleg. This also eliminates the need to do any drilling. Thoughts?

-Dan


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## ship (Jun 7, 2007)

The C-Clamp mounted photo has the fixture up side down, that’s a problem if the fixture is on long.

Yep, exact same hardware. Gonna need to have that cast horn or a mounting flange run thru an oiled die of it’s proper size. Looks like the threading has had some wee age rusting.

Yes on your idea of a yoke proper wrapping both sides in you getting the idea. Now remove half that yoke - one leg of that yoke in the end that comes in behind the photo’d horn and you have where I was coming from in single leg yoke. Just a question of thicker steel in compensating for the double sided clamp. Same thing, just one leg to the yoke instead of two.

Absolutely no drilling of the fixture, get the horn/floor base mounting part back on and terminate your yoke in it. Over the weekend I’ll attempt to make and take photos of a bracket that would work.

“i.e. there is a segment that is not threaded.” Note above my concept of the usefulness of ½" Unistrut Washers that are 1/4" thick and 2" square. Kind of make nice spacers while keeping the surface area under the clamp wide.

Draw your bracket as it would be for a fixture in it’s normal position - vent’s up and base up. Note the shape of the mounting bracket below the fixture in your O’ shaped yoke having the horn of the cast mount getting in the way. Remove that leg of the O’ shape and you have what I drew out. One leg to the yoke, thicker steel to compensate for this.


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## pianoman (Jun 7, 2007)

Thanks for the reply again. I'm going to check into the steel for this soon; I'd need about an 8' section or so. I might actually see if I can get a machine shop to do it for a reasonable price, that way I don't have to mess with bending low gauge steel myself with a bench vise. I'm also going to try to get them to punch out some square gel frames too out of a folded sheet of aluminum. I was thinking of using a bunch of washers if I had to for spacers, but I ordered some 9/16"-12 hardware from mcmaster.com, and I'm going to see if those fit the threads. I really think it's 9/16"; from what I understand that was sort of an old standard for a while.

-Dan


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## wemeck (Jun 10, 2007)

SIU Carbondale still uses instruments from the 1920s. They had the lighting system remodeled about 5 years ago and received some new Source4 from the rigging company as compensation for a couple of botched line-sets. Lets see this is 2007 and they finally got some color scrollers, but still no automated lights.


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## lamphead (Jun 10, 2007)

Just for fun you might take a look at this web site. www.klieglbros.com. They have links to repro's of old Kliegl catalogs.


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## ship (Jun 12, 2007)

Over the weekend I made the yoke out of 1/4x2" mild steel for my own Ovalite. Seriously mis-estimated the strength of this size plate verses the weight of the fixture. Attached is the photos of the upgraded yoke I had welded up for me today.

Should have made it at least 2" taller in yoke size as I had to cut away some at the corner angle irons in order for it to fit.

Still is the photos of what a 1/4" plate yoke once made more into a "L" channel single sided yoke would look like. Other options would be to use 1/4" leg thick by 2" "L" steel welded and or perhaps 1x1 or better yet 1.1/2" box steel of 14ga to make the yoke. Don't even think that 5/16" x 2" steel would be thick enough in the above recommendation - needs more support three dimensionally. The yoke in the photos about doubled the weight of the fixture but while there is bounce it's not going any where. Also found an old odd half cheseborough that seemed appropriate to hange this fixture from. This way if I really wanted to rooster the fixture out some I could.


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## pianoman (Jun 12, 2007)

That's a nice yoke ship. It's making me wish I learned how to weld this year though. I almost did, but I didn't have time to actually do any real practice. I think I'll contact a local machine shop sometime soon about making these yokes. I assume you wouldn't mind if I copied your design?

-Dan


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## ship (Jun 12, 2007)

So I expect your fixture is for the most part very similar?

Just make them 2" taller in that this one with it's origional plates didn't clear very well the fixture.

Note the two 1/2" Unistrut Washers and 1/2" external tooth or possibly M-12 external tooth lock washer used as spacers between yoke and knob. The lock washer is very important and for all intensive purposes locking the fixture in place.

In tapping this and a similar stand mount box light over the weekend I found as I assumed them both to be 1/2-13 in thread, just hand tapped in not really being as refined as a modern bolt, add to this rust in changing the shape a bit. I also found that there was a steel bolt cast into the aluminum horn as it were cast mouting bracket. Keep aware that it's a steel bolt that is in an aluminum cast bracket when you go to re-tap your bolt and oil it up. I had a chip of aluminum come flying off in tapping mine. 

Neither bolt was exotic in other than 1/2-13, it's just a cast or hand tapped bolt that is a little less refined but will re-thread properly. Want to use oil and tap also the knob.


Also in something that I had to cut and re-drill, make sure that your clamp hole is on-center with that of where your yoke will mount to the fixture. Mine was like an inch off on the first attempt at roughing it and it mattered a lot.

1/4 x 4 plate either be it welded up flat plate or 2" angle iron that thick. Either should work once the corners are reinforced. Otherwise as said, 14ga box steel especially if 1x1.1/2" should also work and even potentially be lighter. Show the photos, the welders should be able to structure it.


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## ship (Jun 19, 2007)

ship said:


> and another fixture a Pratt 23' I believe



Looked today, this is a Strand #73.


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## ship (Jun 25, 2007)

So it’s the turn to work on the Chicago Stage Lighting fixture. The Major PC fixture is for the most part done, just have to re-tap the 1/2-13 knob I bought for the bottom for 3/8-18 NPT and eventually clean it’s lamp base & wire it. 

Found some interesting things about the Chicago fixture which is even more curious yet than the many pages of notes on the Major one I’ll spare you all from. Interesting also in that this fixture Chicago brand quite likely in absence of company history on either part might have been the fore runner to Major. As the photos show, while different fixture, the exact same lamp base, one without Major brand stamp in coming with the Mazda lamp, the other with “Major” stamped on the base and a GE non-Mazda lamp. Neither base was rated for the 2Kw lamp installed in the latter fixture. The Chicago fixture by the way did have a matt aluminum casting that was not painted. Under the handle it was not painted 

Both fixtures had a mixture of square nuts and hex nuts in use, the hex nuts in both cases were no doubt replacements for what got lot amongst other often major lost parts. 

Kind of thinking that the Chicago fixture dates back to the 1920's thru 1930's, the Major fixture from the late 1940's thru the 1950's (due to the square nuts.) The Major fixture while using the same lamp base (no longer available,) only allowed the lamp adjusted up and down and has no mounting for a reflector. On the other hand you don’t have to reach your hand inside of the fixture to adjust the focus. The earlier PC fixture has lamp base that is also fully adjustable up and down and even more so in compensating for say a 1Kw, 1,5Kw and 2Kw lamp. This in addition to micro focusing of the actual LCL within differences between lamps. It would seem that the primary reason for being able to adjust lamp height was less by way of micro adjusting for manufacturer defects, and perhaps more to adjust for different LCL’s of different wattage lamps.

The (later generation) Major fixture adjusts up and down, the Chicago fixture as if an old chemistry set magnifying glass adjusts up down and left or right on the lamp base by way of screw knob on 1/4" rod mounts. In addition to this and in a similar way to how really old microscopes work, this one has a mount for a missing reflector which works in the same way by way of thumb screw on a 1/4" rod. Really cool chemistry set type mounting to the fixture which lets you kind of universal adjust it both for lamp base and theoretically in the reflector. Only problem is that you have to have your hand inside the fixture while it’s operating to adjust. Safe enough as long as you are wearing asbestos gloves no doubt. Also to change the lamp, you would have to remove the reflector. No other way about it short of removing the lens which is held in the same way as a Fresnel with a ring.

Still two totally different fixtures, this one has three sliding light blockers below the lamp base to adjust for the wide focus while blocking the light, the Major fixture only has two. A normal Fresnel only has one of these plates. This is explained by a 9.1/2" slide focus range on the Chicago fixture in needing three plates to block the light, the Major fixture having 6.1/2" and a Fresnel not having near that range in slide focus a 3" at best adjustment in needing plates to cover up light spill. Front and rear castings are for the most part the same except on the Chicago fixture, the rear axis housing door uses a brass store bought #9R1174 sprig cup board latch - $0.08 each $0.85/dozen out of the 1902 Sears Catalog, the Major fixture uses a flip handle with latch. Fascinating as always when one can find the parts that make up not just a modern fixture say out of McMaster Carr, but especially on ancient fixtures where it’s in a similar 1902 catalog. (The ?1969 [MCMLXIX] Bounty Books, New York, 1902 Sears reproduction catalog is a masterwork for all designers and tech people tremendously useful for period pieces.)

Anyway, that’s the fixture in general I’m currently working on. The Ovalite is next up, all the box spots I so far have are done in at least de-rusting and wiring. The box spots at some point will become low voltage 60 degree MR-16 fixtures, the PC fixtures and wash light will stay the same. Some question of the age of the Ovalite I won’t yet be able to answer. Given it lacks a white or any paint in the reflector area, it possibly had a reflector assembly that’s missing which would make it a younger fixture. Than again, if no mounts for such a supplemental reflector are found, perhaps this fixture without paint pre-dates paint which would make it a really really old fixture indeed. Six more box spots to collect up from the theater that are currently mis-placed and I’m really hoping that I’ll find some missing stand mounts and lamp base assemblies, this much less more gel frames and lenses that are not that hard to replace but cheaper to find instead of buy. Missing a lamp base assembly also for the second oldest of them.

Love these old lights, on the upgrade to MR-16 lamp, I’ll of course first do no harm, than in doing so make them serviceable and a new life. For the others, and some of the box spots, I’ll leave original sans the wiring, just museum them by way of preventing them from further rust damage but not modifying them. Once done with these, I have a line on more ancient fixtures I will go about acquiring and studying. I find them fascinating. 

Even by way of the Chicago fixture, it has soldered connections of wire to lamp base and the asbestos wiring is seemingly a 1960's/1970's style of it by way of external braiding to it. That and the friction tape about the bend to the wire is confusing. Solder connections while still done at times in th 1980's is normally a factory type of thing which puts this as origional asbestos wire. Yet this wire now removed seemed as if a later generation. Could be it was changed or that this braided asbestos dates to a much earlier date than I thought. Also the friction tape added to it. Never seen friction tape inside a lighting fixture before. While such tape was only electrical tape of the turn of the century thru like 1940's, it has been a main stay for certain applications since than = often in the 1960's thru 1980's used for bulking up cable to strain relief them. Perhaps it’s possible that someone that was experienced enough to re-wire the fixture by way of solder also wired it by way of friction tape at it’s bend to further insulate it. Heck, at some point even I attempted to use the magical friction tape within a fixture - this until it started a smolder fire while fresh. Expect this tech person knew just enough technique in doing good work to be dangerous in not understanding the full concept of their work. Certainly if further reinforcement of this bend in the asbestos wire were needed, fiberglass electrical tape will have been invented by than. This will have been the preferred product to insulate with. So end result by way of a sort of archaeology project, someone in say the 1960's thru early 1980's had re-wired this fixture to the best of their ability. They also replaced certain missing items such as the focus knob and some missing nuts. Focus knobs often seemingly missing it would seem in something not often found.

The rest of the fixture is seemingly in really great condition - at least once I scrape lots of applied paint off what will not have been painted. Amazing that this fixture with a 1K lamp survived years of flat black stage paint and the friction tape without a problem. Beyond this and especially the focus mechanisms for the fixture. Will have loved to see the reflector assembly but given what I have, it is enough to work with in learning lots on how it was once done and being fascinated.

Found some hammertone black spray paint at the store tonight. Should help a lot in touchup work on this fixture. In the mean time, it’s all about re-tapping holes and preserving metals from further detrition. Only one screw was rusted solid or corroded into the hole, that’s a good thing in also saving original fasteners.

Below photo 1&2 is the Chicago lamp base assembly verses the Major lamp base assemlies. Photo 3 the inside adjustment mechanism for the Major assembly. Photo 3 the reinforced with friction tape, asbestos whip inside the lamp base assembly that did a tight 180 degree turn. Photo #4 clearly shows this lamp base plus in it's rear the two completely seperate mountings for both lamp base and reflector assemblies witin one cast brass mounting slide mechanism for them. The rest of the photos are of the Chicago fixture excet photo 6 which shows the two exact same lamp bases fixture to fixture and their mechanisms for asjustment or mounting. One has Major, the othe does not. Don't mind the black paint, it's paint brush applied and after market. Final photo, a field stripped Chicago Stage Lighting PC fixture.


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## gafftapegreenia (Jun 25, 2007)

ship said:


> Looked today, this is a Strand #73.


Do you have a pic of that, its not on the Strand Archive?


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## ship (Jun 26, 2007)

There is photos of them already on the website - what was theorized to be a Pratt 23 I believe. Perhaps someone can provide a link, I'm not going to have time to haul out a 16' ladder in the near future in order to take further photos.


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## gafftapegreenia (Jun 26, 2007)

Thanks, I'll look around for it.


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## ship (Jun 27, 2007)

save the time in re-posting. This is the model number printed on the manufacturer's plate at the rear of the fixture. Noted it while I was atop the pallet rack in grabbing my other PC fixture. This very specifically was what was listed on the name plate as the model number - I was surprised it was not a Pratt 23 or something very similar myself. Further photos... remind me towards fall when I'm less busy at work.


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## gafftapegreenia (Jul 30, 2007)

Saw an interesting variation of the Fresnel today at the summer camp. I believe they were made by either Century or Major, and like any standard Fresnel is all respects. However, instead of the usual stippling or dimples on the back on the lens, there was a crosshatched pattern of very thin lines. Not the way the back of an oval spread Fresnel is, but just thin raised crosshatched thin glass lines.

Up on the grid was also fun. I hadn't been up there before. Apparently, when the new distribution was put in in the the 80's, the old one was left in place. I've never seen so many 2-prong twist-lock outlets. Along with that were a few old receptacles for something I've only seen in the old Kliegl cataloges. The receptacles were covered by a small metal hinged door, and looked like they would take a square block plug with the contacts on the sides of the plug.

This is one of those interesting theaters where the Century Radials hang next to Shakespeares and S4 Pars hang near A-lamp striplights.


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## ship (Jul 31, 2007)

have what I believe is the plug type you describe hanging on my wall of shame. That and the others. Used both types described over the years safely but at risk also in touching by accident what would be bad to touch. 

Avoid such gear and treat it as live as it very well could be. Take a photo than close it up and don't touch it.

As for old gear... it's part of the inventory, stuff to learn from both new and old and should if at all possible be the case. Consider such gear paint brushes as per tools to make art with no matter what type of paint brush. Also, the more you learn from both era and style, the better more balanced your career. Having gear next to each other of various generations is a good thing I think.


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## gafftapegreenia (Jul 31, 2007)

I never mess around with stuff that could be live. What I don't know can hurt me.

As for old and new fixtures coexisting, I have no problem with it, for its llong been my philosophy in lighting to be able to use all types of brushes in order to paint with light.


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## Lightingguy32 (Aug 7, 2007)

Although our highschool just blew loads of money on a renovation of the lighting system, it seems that we will forever be stuck with the old style twist lock connectors. We also have some 30+ year old 360Qs (brown paint) which are getting close to retirement if the school does not fund a refurb. We also still have about 3 or 4 working Altman 65 fresnels (incandescent type reflector insides) that are also brown bodied and close to 30 years old. Otherwise everything else in stock is Source Four.


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## Grog12 (Aug 7, 2007)

Uhm....hate to burst a bubble but twist lock isn't quite "old style." Its more a matter of preference. You'll run into a lot of theatres out there that have both stage pin and twist lock. Each has its advantages and disadvantages. Hell I've worked a tour or two that was all twist lock.

While old 360Q's that haven't been well taken care of are a pain they are still a good light to have around...as are the 6" altman frenels you have. though I'm curious what you mean by incandescent type reflector....as incandescent usually refers to a type of lamp not reflector.


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## gafftapegreenia (Aug 7, 2007)

My highschool's main inventory consisted mainly of brown 360Q's and brown 65Q's. I've used them on several shows and am quite fond of em. The 65Q might not be a Selecon, but its small size vs. light output makes it great for small spaces or low budgets. 

There are different types of twistlock than the one that has become standard. One example are the old, 2 prong, ungrounded twistlocks I recently came across. There are also other older twist lock prongs that were locking pin out instead of pin in.


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## Grog12 (Aug 7, 2007)

gafftapegreenia said:


> My highschool's main inventory consisted mainly of brown 360Q's and brown 65Q's. I've used them on several shows and am quite fond of em. The 65Q might not be a Selecon, but its small size vs. light output makes it great for small spaces or low budgets.
> There are different types of twistlock than the one that has become standard. One example are the old, 2 prong, ungrounded twistlocks I recently came across. There are also other older twist lock prongs that were locking pin out instead of pin in.



Fair enough....I've gotten a little oversensitive to people calling twist lock old...

That being said the twist lock prongs that lock out instead of in are somewhat common in household/commercial appliances.


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## Grimtheatre (Aug 8, 2007)

The theatre I'm working at this summer as a ton of old altman 360Q's from the 70's, the nice bronze-ish bodies and all. I also saw 2 kliegel 3.5's (don't know if that's what they actually were). Gotta say i love the asbestos wire insulation though!


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## gafftapegreenia (Aug 8, 2007)

Yummy, asbestos!

Also, welcome to ControlBooth!


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## icewolf08 (Aug 23, 2007)

Ok, so we were cleaning and reorganizing lighting equipment, work spaces and storage spaces and we stumbled on some interesting old stuff, including some fixtures.

First, a working Electro-Controls Parellipsphere. It is a zoom fixture, and, though it may be hard to tell in my photos, it really looks the grandfather of the source four zoom.


Next on the list is a unit labeled 4x7. I have never seen such a unit before. It has a screw base lamp base, and you can see the reflector configuration in the second photo with the lamp housing open. Kind of interesting, if you know what it is, I would love to know.


And lastly, just a fun one, the Stroboscope.


Enjoy.


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## Logos (Aug 23, 2007)

Ice wolf, what you have there in the 4x7 looks to me like a very early Strand Patt 23 knock off. If you look at the Strand Archives it may help. Strand UK built them from 1954 to I think 1982 and mad thousands of them. It looks a little different from the ones I have which makes me believe its a knock off. I'll try and take some pictures of one of mine and post them later today.


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## gafftapegreenia (Aug 23, 2007)

It reminds me too of a Strand, but not quite right to actually be a Strand.


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## ship (Aug 23, 2007)

way cool photos. Stuff I have never seen before. Fascinating, on the perspective Strand/Pratt knockoff, where does the lamp fit into this picture?

Them's all fixtures to be proud of and take care of really well. Need any help in lamps and details of how to or what, let us know. Sort of a cancils I'm hoping, the concept that old fixtures are trash and it must be all modern, instead it's more like classic cars. Not always useful for a commute to work in the snow, but great to take for a spin on a sunny day during the weekend. This much less like with stick shift, once you learn it - even if sort of obsolete, you learn it forever even if out of practice with it.


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## Charc (Aug 23, 2007)

Grog12 said:


> Fair enough....I've gotten a little oversensitive to people calling twist lock old...
> That being said the twist lock prongs that lock out instead of in are somewhat common in household/commercial appliances.



Well! Come on, it could be "old". If it was the "old style" (What was that? Nub out?) So ha!

(Wasn't the whole arcing if not twisted a big problem? Or do I have my lighting trivia wrong?)


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## Grog12 (Aug 24, 2007)

charcoaldabs said:


> Well! Come on, it could be "old". If it was the "old style" (What was that? Nub out?) So ha!
> (Wasn't the whole arcing if not twisted a big problem? Or do I have my lighting trivia wrong?)



You run into the same arcing problem with stage pins that aren't pushed all the way together.

All plugs have their plusses and their minuses....stage pin is funny because they were built to pull apart if they were being tugged on (say by a scenery peice) yet at the same time thats how they start arcing half the time.


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## derekleffew (Aug 24, 2007)

Yesterday I saw this absolutely ancient light. I think it was called a Vari-Lite VL3500Q Spot, does anyone even remember that light? I mean, it had, like, shutters, and wasn't even digital! C'mon, the High End Systems DL-2 was around in 2006, wasn't it? Get this, the guy told me it was controlled by something called DMX--I'm sure he was pulling my leg so I didn't fall for it. The only kewl thing about the light was that all its nuts and bolts were metric, even the Pozidrive screw heads. Must have weighed at least 42.6 Kilograms.


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## Grog12 (Aug 24, 2007)

derekleffew said:


> Yesterday I saw this absolutely ancient light. I think it was called a Vari-Lite VL3500Q Spot, does anyone even remember that light? I mean, it had, like, shutters, and wasn't even digital! C'mon, the High End Systems DL-2 was around in 2006, wasn't it? Get this, the guy told me it was controlled by something called DMX--I'm sure he was pulling my leg so I didn't fall for it. The only kewl thing about the light was that all its nuts and bolts were metric, even the Pozidrive screw heads. Must have weighed at least 42.6 Kilograms.


hehehehehehe


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## icewolf08 (Aug 24, 2007)

ship said:


> way cool photos. Stuff I have never seen before. Fascinating, on the perspective Strand/Pratt knockoff, where does the lamp fit into this picture?
> Them's all fixtures to be proud of and take care of really well. Need any help in lamps and details of how to or what, let us know. Sort of a cancils I'm hoping, the concept that old fixtures are trash and it must be all modern, instead it's more like classic cars. Not always useful for a commute to work in the snow, but great to take for a spin on a sunny day during the weekend. This much less like with stick shift, once you learn it - even if sort of obsolete, you learn it forever even if out of practice with it.


Ship, the Parellipsphere has a list of recommended lamps on it (medium prefocus base), so that isn't a hard one. The other cool thing is the sticker on it saying that it was made by the IBEW. It works, but I think that I should replace the wiring as I have a suspicion that it is asbestos jacketing. Besides, even if it isn't, it is old and crackling.

The Strand/Pratt 4x7 probably also could use new wiring, and like I said, it is a medium screw base. Finding the right lamp for that could be interesting.

I am not sure if there is hope in resurrecting the Stroboscope, but it certainly looks cool on the shelf.

The cleaning, reorganizing, and purging that I have been doing over the last week has not only left me with a much better work and storage space, but I have unearthed some pretty cool stuff. I wouldn't throw out old stuff like this, especially if it works. I am trying to figure out a good way to make a little display.


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## ship (Aug 27, 2007)

icewolf08 said:


> It works, but I think that I should replace the wiring as I have a suspicion that it is asbestos jacketing. Besides, even if it isn't, it is old and crackling.
> The Strand/Pratt 4x7 probably also could use new wiring, and like I said, it is a medium screw base. Finding the right lamp for that could be interesting.
> QUOTE]
> 
> Look on the Pratt fixture for a name plate saying something like say #264 or something like that. Know what fixture model, easy enough to say what lamp is specified for it, than it's upgrade to halogen. Replacing the wiring or removing but not replacing it does not detract from value. Some fixtures I do I replace the wiring on, other fixtures I leave wiring removed but in ready to wire condition. YOur choice either way in it not detracting from value either way and in being safe is the proper thing to do.


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## church (Aug 27, 2007)

looks like a Strand Patt 23N, these are a 15 degree version of the Patt 23


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## ship (Sep 2, 2007)

My notes say BTL and BTM which means 500w/120v maximum wattage. Otherwise for the Euro types, something like a T-17, T-24 or T-28 (like the Lif code only slightly more than the J-Code.) such as the FKF in more normal ANSI terms.


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## Dally (Jul 14, 2008)

gafftapegreenia said:


> Along with that were a few old receptacles for something I've only seen in the old Kliegl cataloges. The receptacles were covered by a small metal hinged door, and looked like they would take a square block plug with the contacts on the sides of the plug.



Thats what we have in the theatre I just started working in.....but they still use them as floor pockets and other useable outlets backstage...


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## derekleffew (Jul 14, 2008)

Dally said:


> That's what we have in the theatre I just started working in.....but they still use them as floor pockets and other usable outlets backstage...


Properly known as a stage plug (see glossary). Try to find a way to leave them in their sockets, and caution everyone against using them. Never make or break live! You could attempt to make an adapter to a current connector, connecting the ground to the conduit, until all floor pockets and outlets can be replaced, ideally ASAP.

PS-Can you post pictures? My sources for one have failed me.


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## Smurphy (Jul 14, 2008)

Old lights, the oldest I have seen are the old strand lekos I own. Wow not as old as some of you people.


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## Dally (Jul 14, 2008)

http://www.klieglbros.com/catalogs/B/Kliegl_Catalog_B_%20018.jpg
http://www.klieglbros.com/catalogs/B/Kliegl_Catalog_B_%20019.jpg
We've got both the floor pockets and wall pockets with plugs. My camera is at home so actual photos will have to wait a day or two, we also have the disappearing footlights as shown on the next link. From what I understand the lights are still in "good order" but someone screwed them closed, and I havn't had the time yet to open them up to inspect them just for curiosities sake. I guess I could say safety sake too. 
http://www.klieglbros.com/catalogs/B/Kliegl_Catalog_B_%20005.jpg

Supposedly they renovated this theatre a couple of years ago....they just neglected to do anything on the technical side. So there are a huge variety of problems from the lovely stage plugs, to lights that (I have yet to inspect these personally but was told) had the grounds cut off to fit into the groundless stage pin connecter that are currently there, and much much more. 
On the plus side I get to see historic stage equipment, and thats kinda cool....
Do you have any idea where I could find more stage plugs to turn into adapters? I'd prefer to at least have adapters in them rather than fingers.


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## ship (Jul 14, 2008)

if real stage plugs, I know of a source beyond my wall of shame that might still have some but overall concept is that its not safe to be using thus adaptors in not the true option. I upgraded my old worked at 1926 house to stage pin, that's the better option - this even if there is no such thing as 30A stage pin these days either. Still adapting the stage pin to slip as it were 2P&G is the better option.

Takes investment and those experienced in such things - much less licienced for such things in cutting the panel for the new outlet and judging if the wire feeding it is safe enough to be adapted or if it needs to be re-pulled.


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## gafftapegreenia (Dec 15, 2009)

Just learned today that the 1927 Temple Theatre in Saginaw, MI, one of the venues for this years KCACTF Region 3, still has four electrics of RBW X-Rays!! I don't know if they will be in our design, but as often as I still see x-rays, RBW is a true blast from way back when. (I'll bet any money there are some Olivette's in a back room) 

Luckily there is also an electric before each x-ray with various S4 PAR's and ERS's.


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## Peter ASkin (May 3, 2016)

SteveB said:


> When I was on tour with the musical Chicago, decades ago, I got to operate the very, very old and original follow spots at the Shea's Theater in Buffalo (pre-renovation).
> 
> Made by Hall and Connolly, they were a lime green carbon arc, whose carbon rods were about 1/2" in diameter (as opposed to 1/4" for Super Troupers). These units were set up with positive rods feeding from the bottom on a diagonal (same as the carbon Strong Gladiators), with crank feeds to override the DC motors. I wouldn't be surprised if the entire unit was DC. The color frame assembly was a hand made wood box mounted on the front of the unit, with 6 rectangular wooden color frames that slid in to place via a string on a horizontal slider arrangement - similar to an Abacus. The iris and dowsers were wooden handled and the entire unit could be operated from either left side or right side. A great light !.
> 
> ...


Some notes about Hall and Connolly spotlights:
>> I saw your pages devoted to Hall & Connolly lamps, and thought I'd offer my own two cents worth. I have a very extensive background with carbon arc equipment- I'm 58 and worked worked as a projector mechanic when I was younger. Most of the machines we serviced still used arc lamps at that time. In some of the larger New York area theaters it was not unusual to see Hall & Connolly spotlights still sitting up in the projection booth, from the days of live stage shows presented before the film. The previous edition of Madison Square Garden was equipped with Hall & Connolly spotlights. They were always of great interest to me, and I began collecting them from whichever theaters would part with them. Today I have 5 or six of them sitting around, in various condition.
>> A couple of comments about the history of the company: although Hall & Connolly did use a burner that had Sperry patents, Sperry never owned the company. The Sperry burner was also used in searchlights, in a different configuration. And by the way, the term "high intensity" does NOT refer to the brightness of
>> these lamps, although they certainly are radically brighter than low intensity arc lamps. It refers instead to the current density relative to the size of the carbon. High intensity carbons are also of a different chemical makeup than low intensity. The high intensity carbon arc was discovered by a German scientist named Heinrich Beck, and operates under different principles than the low intensity arcs it superseded. Hall & Connolly started in New York, and made lamp houses for film projection as well as spotlights. They were eventually acquired by J.E. McAuley Mfg in Chicago, maybe best known as the manufacturer of the Peerless Magnarc- a projector lamp. After buying H &C, McAuley offered a condenser style projector lamp called the HyCandescent, which was clearly a reference to H&C. The very largest screens needed that kind of light output, and so the "HyCan" was often used in houses like Radio City and Loews Paradise. McAuley was eventually bought by Strong Electric. Strong used to advertise a variable focus lens on their spotlights. They'd inherited that from Hall & Connolly. The light output of a Hall & Connolly spotlight in good condition certainly exceeds that of a carbon arc Super Trouper. While the Super Trouper lamp was a high intensity lamp, it was only a small one, a 1KW projector lamp modified for spotlight use. In the world of film projection, the 1KW lamp was the smallest thing useable in a movie theater in terms of what it could do to illuminate a screen.It used a 7mm positive carbon and operated at 42 amps at about 29 volts.
>> The Hall & Connolly in it's most common configuration used a 13.6mm positive burning at 125amps at about 75 volts.
>> Efficiency of light collection notwithstanding, there's no substitute for cubic inches.
>>
>> Peter Askin


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## ship (May 4, 2016)

Wow! thanks for joining the forum. Ten years my elder and so much knowledge to pass on

gafftapegreenia said:


> Just learned today that the 1927 Temple Theatre in Saginaw, MI, one of the venues for this years KCACTF Region 3, still has four electrics of RBW X-Rays!! I don't know if they will be in our design, but as often as I still see x-rays, RBW is a true blast from way back when. (I'll bet any money there are some Olivette's in a back room)
> 
> Luckily there is also an electric before each x-ray with various S4 PAR's and ERS's.



And now another 10 years my elder PA joins. Are you still involved with the theater can you send photos of what's there? Sounds like a fascinating place to see historic lighting in use and in storage.


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## RonHebbard (May 4, 2016)

gafftapegreenia said:


> I just remembered that the theatre we rented to do our musical at last year had two old Carbon Arc Strong Super Troopers. They didn't use them, instead they used their brand new Lycians.  This was a highschool and their head tech person, who has been working their for at least 30 years, said he'd fire them up just to show me, but we never got arond to it. Their FOH catwalk was fun too. Everything from old Capital Radials, and Kliegl Radials to 360Q's and Source 4's. Additionaly, they had about a dozen 18" scoops sitting in one corner that they replaced with new L&E cycs, and another dozen or so old 8" fresnels they no longer used. On stage was also a mixtures of Source 4's, 360Q's, and what looked like three "generations" of fresnels. (I know that fresnels don't change but you could tell they were made in different decades)
> 
> Thanks for the tip about the Handbook, I'll have to pick one up.


There were at least two editions of The Photometrics Handbook, the first edition came out just before Source Fours.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.


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## Peter ASkin (May 4, 2016)

ship said:


> Wow! thanks for joining the forum. Ten years my elder and so much knowledge to pass on
> 
> 
> And now another 10 years my elder PA joins. Are you still involved with the theater can you send photos of what's there? Sounds like a fascinating place to see historic lighting in use and in storage.


Ummmm.... What theater are you referring to, specifically?


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## JohnD (May 4, 2016)

I'm thinking the Temple in Saginaw.
http://www.cinematour.com/tour.php?db=us&id=4304


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## Peter ASkin (May 4, 2016)

I was never there. I think you are responding to someone else's post. I'd posted some specific details about Hall & Connolly spotlights, but had never written anything about theaters other than giving mostly generic examples of places in NY that had them.


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## ship (May 7, 2016)

Any history on the company I have never hear of before to help? Here is what I have on file for a few companies I know of below them in my short history:
From what you describe we have what they did but no location or history and if catalogs are out there. Looking for similar and further info and or company web links.

-Holzmuller, C.F., 1108 Howard St., San Francisco. (Catalogue) c.1929 Listed & c.1930-1940, 1954 Listed.
-Hub Electric Company, 2219 West Grand Ave, Chicago. - Retired,... control gear & lighting hard to find parts/repair company especially for dimmers. (Catalogue) c.1929 & 1954 Listed.
-Ivanhoe Division of the Miller Company, Cleveland. Spun aluminum reflectors especially for stage-lighting equipment, footlights and Boarderlighgts; Porcelain-enameled steel reflectors. (Catalogue) c.1929 Listed.
-Ivanhoe Division of the Miller Company, Cleveland. Spun aluminum reflectors especially for stage-lighting equipment, footlights and Boarderlighgts; Porcelain-enameled steel reflectors. (Catalogue) c.1929 Listed.
-Izenour, George C., Designer-Engineer, 10 Alston Avenue, New Haven, Connecticut. Projectors, Remote-Control Devices, Switchboards; Custom Designed Units. 1954 Listed.
-Jackson, A.E. 54 Alberta street, Toronto. c.1929 Listed.
-Kansas City Scenic Company, 1000 East 24th Street, Kansas City. c.1929 Listed.
-Kliegl Brother’s (see Universal Stage Lighting Company.)


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## Peter ASkin (May 7, 2016)

ship said:


> Any history on the company I have never hear of before to help? Here is what I have on file for a few companies I know of below them in my short history:
> From what you describe we have what they did but no location or history and if catalogs are out there. Looking for similar and further info and or company web links.
> 
> -Holzmuller, C.F., 1108 Howard St., San Francisco. (Catalogue) c.1929 Listed & c.1930-1940, 1954 Listed.
> ...




Hall & Connolly, Inc. was located in New York City on Vandam Street in lower Manhattan. I think the street number was 24. They were there- I believe- until the mid to late 1930's, when they were acquired by the J E McAuley Company of Chicago. There's a fair amount of literature out the for McAuley- it bacame a bigger operation than H&C had been. I think I did reference some of this in my posting. I THINK, but am not CERTAIN of this, that McAuley continued to build the spotlights Hall & Connolly had been building for a period of time, after acquiring H&C. McAuley's real market, however, was in manufacturing projector lamphouses.( Their most well known product was a lamp called the Peerless Magnarc. 'Magnarc' was a reference to the magnetic stabilization of the arc- in particular, stabilization of the plasma disc or wafer that is the source of most of the light output. But I digress....) Hall & Connolly had been building projector lamps as well- again, you may be able to find some examples of these lamps in film industry technical literature. McAuley was then acquired by Strong Electric- which probably brings it into recent enough history for you to have some background in it. Strong's address was 87 City Park Avenue Toledo, Ohio. That one's ingrained.

There is not much literature around for Hall & Connolly, it seems. I've seen a few pieces, and it seems to range from typewriter written operating instructions to slightly more elaborate catalogues. I'd suggest looking more towards the film industry- not in the area of studios/production, but rather in books like Richardson's Handook of Projection for text references as well as perhaps finding the occasional advertisement at the back of the book.


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## ship (May 10, 2016)

Thanks on all levels. Your reply history revealed is not before now I think known. Imagine the term papers or at least thater lighting history that could include this brand now. I have never heard of this brand, and have years of research into fixture brand history. Info added. (Lycian personally preferred but work on a lot of Strong, interesting history added.)


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