# Drop Box



## ErickAlexJames (Feb 5, 2010)

Hello! Trying to figure out a drop box triggering mechanism for a large 40'x1'x1' drop box. We are dropping thousands of streamers to mask a quick scene shift and then immediately flying out the box. We have the box built with a full hinged bottom door. Any ideas on how to lock and release other than pins that often fail?

Any help would be great

Erick
University of Wisconsin Technical Director
[email protected]


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## erosing (Feb 5, 2010)

Perhaps simpler would be better in this case, a series of loose pin hinges and rope? Add a catch so that the pins don't fall completely out only that they go far enough to clear the hinge on the bottom so that it falls but remain in the hinge attached to the side.


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## Footer (Feb 5, 2010)

I have built more drop boxes then I care to think about. Selenoids only work if you have a very light box. For a 40' long box, you are going to need many closure points. Its counter to usual thinking, but the more pins you have the easier the thing will fall. 

Take a look at this thread...
http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/scenery/14765-dropping-curtains.html


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## FatherMurphy (Feb 5, 2010)

You could use something like a snow bag, and instead of working one side up and down to sift out snow, lift the working side until the entire bag is flat vertical, dumping the streamers out.


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## MNBallet (Feb 6, 2010)

ErickAlexJames said:


> Hello! Trying to figure out a drop box triggering mechanism for a large 40'x1'x1' drop box. We are dropping thousands of streamers to mask a quick scene shift and then immediately flying out the box. We have the box built with a full hinged bottom door. Any ideas on how to lock and release other than pins that often fail?
> 
> Any help would be great
> 
> ...



I use Rosco loose pn hinges, but then use rebar wire holders from Menards or Home Depot. Just clip off one end and the other end comes with a nice little closed loop perfect to attach your rope. The smaller wire never gets caught up and releases every time. 

If you tie each pin by itself to another batten, then pulling one fly line rope will relase all hinges equally, and the pins are left hanging in the air. Or with some having longer ropes, then you can have a controlled relay release, still from one pull rope.

Ken Pogin
Production / Tour Manager
Minnesota Ballet


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## MarshallPope (Feb 6, 2010)

A related question that may help - When using a box of this size, is it advisable to build several individual doors so that if a pin sticks or something the whole effect won't fail?


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## MichaelPHS (Nov 13, 2013)

I'm looking at making a drop box for a small drama studio in a school and just wanted some feedback on a couple ideas. I was thinking maybe a length of fabric with metal rods or wooden dowels sewn into a hem with a quick release mechanism (possibley a pull out pin) which would then be rigged. A second idea was a delivery bag, curtosey of an old pillow case or similar item, with a kind of "reverse drawstring" to release the confetti/petals from the bottom of the bag. I am also toying with the idea of a bucket or container with a hookclamp fastened to the bottom(when hung upside down making it the top) and putting holes in it with a hole saw, fixing a rubber seal to the open end with a fan inside to then blow the payload out through the holes in the bucket. In my mind's eye I can't see why these ideas won't work, but any input on whether you've tried these yourselves, or you have any suggestions to refine them is much appriciated


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## VCTMike (Nov 13, 2013)

MichaelPHS said:


> I'm looking at making a drop box for a small drama studio in a school and just wanted some feedback on a couple ideas. I was thinking maybe a length of fabric with metal rods or wooden dowels sewn into a hem with a quick release mechanism (possibley a pull out pin) which would then be rigged. A second idea was a delivery bag, curtosey of an old pillow case or similar item, with a kind of "reverse drawstring" to release the confetti/petals from the bottom of the bag. I am also toying with the idea of a bucket or container with a hookclamp fastened to the bottom(when hung upside down making it the top) and putting holes in it with a hole saw, fixing a rubber seal to the open end with a fan inside to then blow the payload out through the holes in the bucket. In my mind's eye I can't see why these ideas won't work, but any input on whether you've tried these yourselves, or you have any suggestions to refine them is much appriciated



I built three snow machines with a six sided 'drum' with 1/2" holes drilled in the sides (and one removable side to refill it) and used an off the shelf BBQ rotisserie motor from Home Depot to drive it. Can't control the speed (use a relay circuit) but it "snows" well for a typical gentle snowfall scene.

EDIT by Mod.: See the wiki entry snow drum ; also drop box .
.


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## MarshallPope (Nov 13, 2013)

Something that I'm unclear about from your post is whether you are looking for an everything-drops-at-once solution or something more prolonged.

If you are looking for a sudden drop, I've used your pillowcase idea before, usually with deer netting for larger bits or tulle for smaller confetti/snow. My favorite method, though, for snow and other small particles is to use a plastic box (with an open top) hung with two lines - one attached to the bottom and one to the top. When the top line is lowered or kabukied, the box will just dump out the contents. I prefer this to bags as there is less chance of accidental spill when rigging it.


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## MichaelPHS (Nov 13, 2013)

At the moment I'm unsure as to our needs, its a school theatre as I say, but I was thinking of both ideas at the time. I've seen a "double roller" method mentioned before, but due to the layout of the studio and rig its just not feasable for us.


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## Michael Larsen (Jul 25, 2018)

ErickAlexJames said:


> Hello! Trying to figure out a drop box triggering mechanism for a large 40'x1'x1' drop box. We are dropping thousands of streamers to mask a quick scene shift and then immediately flying out the box. We have the box built with a full hinged bottom door. Any ideas on how to lock and release other than pins that often fail?
> 
> Any help would be great
> 
> ...


May be more complicated than you want but I use an electromagnet to hold the door closed. Then with a relay trigger the opening from the light board (killing the Electromagnet) in your case a few magnets might be needed depending on how heavy the "drop box door" is. 12 volt power supply can drive it all. Large Electromagnets can get quite warm however so keep that in mind. Also there is no reason to have one 40 foot box. You could have several 10 foot boxes and get your effect done. as well. If the door is heavy then 110volt magnets can be used instead. (Think Fire Doors)


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## BillConnerFASTC (Jul 25, 2018)

This is what I love about CB. An answer to a question asked 8 years ago. Its still worth reading the answer but makes me wonder how they solved it 8 years ago and if it worked.


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## Michael Larsen (Jul 25, 2018)

oops. i'm brand new to this type of forum so sorry i did not even look at the date!!!


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## RonHebbard (Jul 25, 2018)

Michael Larsen said:


> oops. i'm brand new to this type of forum so sorry* i did not even look at the date!!!*


 *@Michael Larsen * Some of our older posts are from folks who were wicking whale oil up to their footlights from their orchestra pits. Currently, most of our posters are utilizing alternating current and more of them employing LED's rather then incandescent sources. Very few of our posters are still running direct current and brine dimmers. *Know when you're being* _ragged._ 
Toodleoo! 
Ron Hebbard


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## Michael Larsen (Jul 25, 2018)

LOL

Well I do run DC quite a bit using RC4 wireless DMX but I hear you.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Jul 25, 2018)

I was sincere - it's a great aspect of CB that "mature" posts get responses. Relevant then and now. I liked the idea to use the electromagnetic hold opens for this. In the $50 range, affordable.


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## Van (Jul 25, 2018)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> I was sincere - it's a great aspect of CB that "mature" posts get responses. Relevant then and now. I liked the idea to use the electromagnetic hold opens for this. In the $50 range, affordable.
> View attachment 16610


I don't particularly care for Electromagnets for this application. They heat up. If the faces get dirty at all they tend to buzz, if the face don't mate properly they tend to buzz. Often just sitting there they buzz. It can be subtle but extremely annoying. They can retain enough magnetism to inhibit the function of a lightweight material you might be trying to drop and If the power fails the trick trips. Having rigging dozens of Kabuki's, Leaf, confetti, balloon, flower petal, and 'ceiling plaster' drops I find I greatly prefer a solenoid actuated system as it doesn't need constant power, it is a "one-shot".


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## Jay Ashworth (Jul 27, 2018)

The sort of door-holder magnet Bill illustrates, Van, doesn't work that way.

A permanent magnet holds the door open, and when you power it, the electromagnet, polarized in reverse, overcomes that magnetism, and releases the stopper. It's only powered while you're firing it.


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## RonHebbard (Jul 27, 2018)

Jay Ashworth said:


> The sort of door-holder magnet Bill illustrates, Van, doesn't work that way.
> 
> A permanent magnet holds the door open, and when you power it, the electromagnet, polarized in reverse, overcomes that magnetism, and releases the stopper. It's only powered while you're firing it.


 *@Jay Ashworth* Your US fire door holder magnets must be the reverse of every one I've ever installed in my neighborhood of Canada. Up here, ours are held when energized with the doors being released and shut by spring, hydraulic or weighted, gravity operated, closers in cases of power failure or when released by a building's fire alarm system. Up here, it's also normal for our fire alarm systems to send all elevators to their lowest floors where they park with their doors open. The thinking is if you're in the elevator's cab it's going to take you to the lowest floor before letting you out to avoid your having to pass through a fire zone. @Dionysus Care to comment? 
Toodleoo! 
Ron Hebbard


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## Dionysus (Jul 27, 2018)

RonHebbard said:


> *@Jay Ashworth* Your US fire door holder magnets must be the reverse of every one I've ever installed in my neighborhood of Canada. Up here, ours are held when energized with the doors being released and shut by spring, hydraulic or weighted, gravity operated, closers in cases of power failure or when released by a building's fire alarm system. Up here, it's also normal for our fire alarm systems to send all elevators to their lowest floors where they park with their doors open. The thinking is if you're in the elevator's cab it's going to take you to the lowest floor before letting you out to avoid your having to pass through a fire zone. @Dionysus Care to comment?
> Toodleoo!
> Ron Hebbard



http://www.sargentlock.com/products/product_overview.php?item_id=96

Correct as I used to install them, they are held open by being energized. Then when the power goes out, or when the alarm goes off the power is cut by the fire alarm and the doors close under their own power.
This is important as if the power goes out there is no power to close the doors in the event of a fire. Also if there is a problem with the system the doors will close.
It is against the law to use door stoppers or other devices to prop these doors open (unless only very temporarily with monitoring; ie if there is a fire you better close the door. Perhaps while working on the door holders themselves.).


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## BillConnerFASTC (Jul 27, 2018)

And no theatre technician would ever prevent a fire door from functioning as intended.


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## Van (Jul 27, 2018)

Jay Ashworth said:


> The sort of door-holder magnet Bill illustrates, Van, doesn't work that way.
> 
> A permanent magnet holds the door open, and when you power it, the electromagnet, polarized in reverse, overcomes that magnetism, and releases the stopper. It's only powered while you're firing it.


Here's a standard trouble shooting cut sheet for an electromagnetic door holder-opener-thingy. 
https://content.assaabloyusa.com/doc/AADSS1013820

Notice the first problem, 'Does Not Hold', first answer 'Power not turned on'.

The rest of this sheet goes on to describe the rest of the reason I don't like them i.e. buzzing, inconsistent holding power, etc. etc.


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## Jay Ashworth (Jul 28, 2018)

Perhaps they come in both sorts, for different uses. I saw the instruciton sheet on the ones put in to allow an executive to close a door, 20 years ago where I worked, and they only pulled current when activated.


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## Crisp image (Jul 29, 2018)

I created a 12v release form a car central locking solenoid. Advantages being low voltage, low cost or free from the wreckers. Disadvantages mounting them can be tricky. I also added a micro switch that cut power to them once activated so that the stage hand that operated the switch could reapply power or hold power on the device.
Worked a treat for me.
Regards
Geoff


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## bobgaggle (Jul 30, 2018)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> And no theatre technician would ever prevent a fire door from functioning as intended.



So big $$$ to the guy who invents a fire door that doesn't close with a loud click and doesn't latch unless there's a fire...


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## BillConnerFASTC (Jul 30, 2018)

bobgaggle said:


> So big $$$ to the guy who invents a fire door that doesn't close with a loud click and doesn't latch unless there's a fire...



Some claims that this has been made but expensive and not truly quiet in my experience.

Generally the the solution is to include a sound and light lock at every entry to the stage or auditorium. Basically a vestibule that is included in the same fire compartment as the auditorium or stage. Thus, the door between the noise sensitive space and the vestibule is not required to be rated and therefore no latching hardware - just a push plate, a pull, and a closer. The door between vestibule and corridor/lobby/exterior/other would be rated and have latching hardware, but its a door removed from the noise sensitive spaces and usually not a problem.

I have at least on project where the entire corridor behind stage is the sound and light lock - with built in blue lights and all - but it takes careful planning to be sure that corridor is not a corridor serving as the required means of egress for other spaces. In effect, the corridor is just a part of the stage for code purposes.

I try to get this in control rooms, orchestra pits, etc., but those sometimes loose and will depend upon the relatively few users to plan their entries and exits.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Jul 30, 2018)

Jay Ashworth said:


> Perhaps they come in both sorts, for different uses. I saw the instruciton sheet on the ones put in to allow an executive to close a door, 20 years ago where I worked, and they only pulled current when activated.


Jay - 
I don't think you will find too many that work non-powered to hold and apply power to release. Generally, in means of egress, failing safe or in this case door closed, latched, but not necessarily locked is very desirable and simple. Perhaps some access control devices, like a strike plate that is activated - or retracted perhaps is a better word - to allow passage through an otherwise locked door.
Now, ETLs (electro thermal fusible links) sometimes used in stage smoke vents and fire safety curtains and on some fire doors and windows and fire dampers and such, do require power to be applied to release (coil heats link and it opens) but last time I checked they were like $50/link and one time use. There are now resettable ones but I have not researched. They might in fact be a viable release mechanism for a drop box.


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