# Health and Safety gone stupid!



## iAdam (Jul 4, 2012)

Hi all,
I'm a high school student in the UK as some of you may know..
Recently, ive been told that im not aloud to turn the dimmer packs on and off..

Our dimmers are connected direct to a fuse box which serves the dimmers, and only the dimmers.
All that I need to do is to switch off the dimmers at the main red 'all' fuse, and boom, they're off.
It seems however, that this is unsafe?

Someone please tell me of any risks that could present themselves by turning off a fuse box?

Thanks.. adam.


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## Footer (Jul 4, 2012)

Google Arc Flash. 

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## iAdam (Jul 4, 2012)

But surely there'd be as much of a risk of that if i were to turn on a fuse at home if it tripped?


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## techieman33 (Jul 4, 2012)

iAdam said:


> But surely there'd be as much of a risk of that if i were to turn on a fuse at home if it tripped?



There is a whole lot more power running to the dimmers than a breaker at home. Also when your at home the school is liable for any injuries or death.


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## iAdam (Jul 4, 2012)

Spose..
How do american places get away with it though? 
Same with rigging?


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## DuckJordan (Jul 4, 2012)

They don't they get a qualified individual to come in. Not a high school studen.t.


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## SteveB (Jul 4, 2012)

2 scenarios:

1) Permanently installed racks of assorted sizes, with local main breakers. We never turn off the breakers. The lighting control system is either the "performance" console (Ion, outside desk) or an ETC Unison system for house lights, work lights, etc... When the performance system is not active, Unison controls what's needed, thus we never need to kill rack/pack main breakers.

2) Temporary system with a company switch tie-in, as well as rental/touring racks and power distribution. If shutting down for more then an overnight, it's the tour electricians call to kill main power, and/or my decision at which point I verify there is no load on any dimmers (control signal at zero or off), then will turn off the house company switch. No concern about arc flash in this instance as there is no load on the system. 

So the question becomes if you have permanently installed packs/rack, why are you in need of killing the main breakers to the dimmers ?.


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## iAdam (Jul 4, 2012)

We have to turn off at the breakers due to the fact that they will not get used for weeks apart. The dimmer packs we have are permanent installed, however, they are rather old so the only way to turn them off, is at the breakers.. I will post a picture of the setup tomorrow.


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## SteveB (Jul 5, 2012)

No, you don't really have to turn off the breakers. If the control system is not sending a control signal, there should be no dimmers active. In many racks if there's no valid control signal, the rack fan will not run. Thus the only thing in the rack that's powered is the control module and that can run 24/7 with no issues. If you arein an area that't susceptible to lightning strikes, then I could see powering down, but otherwise no.

As well, circuit breakers are not switches and are not designed to be powered on/off repeatedly. You'r better off leaving them on.

FWIW, One of my spaces has a legacy Sensor 96 dimmer rack. As long as the console is off, the fan doesn't run (no DMX). I only power down in August to clean dimmers and the rack filters, otherwise it is powered up from late May to October with no usage.


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## iAdam (Jul 5, 2012)

just for the sake of it, heres our dimmers.. we dont have the 'demlux 48' though..

ImageShack® - Online Photo and Video Hosting


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## josh88 (Jul 5, 2012)

My space is like steves, I only power down my rack to clean it or if I have to swap dimmers or do maintenance. Otherwise it's on 24/7 


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## Wood4321 (Jul 5, 2012)

iAdam, 
I understand your frustration, however I think you are on the wrong side of this. 
Especially since you are a High School Student.
I would take this as a learning experience, and move forward with knowledge that you did not possess before.

In any case, leave the breakers on, and use DMX to turn off your dimmers.
Welcome to the forum and keep asking questions!


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## gafftapegreenia (Jul 5, 2012)

Now, I've never felt like testing this while the dimmers disconnected from the board, but I know that I was once shocked by a dimmer I had set at 0% and then tried to rewire a plug on. So, I would disagree that killing data is enough.


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## Morte615 (Jul 6, 2012)

^ Yeah but I think everyone here would agree, and has stated at one point in time or another, that maintenance on dimmers should only be preformed while the power is turned off and proper Lock-out, tag-out procedures were followed.

In the case of the OP they are just looking to make sure that no (or the least possible) power is being used to save on equipment and utility costs. In THAT case I see no problem with just letting the racks be controlled from the board. Though again if you have to do ANY maintenance on the dimmer then turn off power, follow lock-out, tag-out, and make sure you have someone qualified doing the maintenance.


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## Footer (Jul 6, 2012)

gafftapegreenia said:


> Now, I've never felt like testing this while the dimmers disconnected from the board, but I know that I was once shocked by a dimmer I had set at 0% and then tried to rewire a plug on. So, I would disagree that killing data is enough.



That it due to how dimmers work. They actually leak power until there is resistance on the line. This us why you have to ghost load small loads. 

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## porkchop (Jul 7, 2012)

The reason you're asking this question is the same exact reason that you're being told you can't do this. As has been mentioned there is a huge amount of power being controlled by that breaker, and many people underestimate that and just assume that it's just like any other breaker they've every used. With more power you have more potential for things to go wrong, and when you're talking about a main disconnect it could be catastrophically wrong. A qualified person might notice something that's a potential danger that you might not realize is an issue.
On a more realistic note (and I'm not saying this applies directly to you, but when organisations are thinking about policy...) often times people that aren't really qualified throw the breaker in an inappropriate manor and that has the possibility to damage the breaker. A very common one is to stomp down on a breaker that is low to the ground. Not only does this even further increase the risk of the breaker malfunctioning, but you can also break of the arm used to throw the breaker. For reference the "cheap" replacement breaker for the dimmer racks I used last would run you about $4,000 just for the part.
You can decide either way on if the breakers should be turned off or left on, but in your situation I wouldn't get too worked up about not being allowed to throw the switch.


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## marmer (Jul 11, 2012)

For what it's worth, I've been knocking around this building for twenty-odd years, and I wouldn't dream of switching off the breaker to the dimmer racks; I'd get an electrician for that if it were something like major maintenance. I'd only do it myself if it were literally an emergency, like a fire or serious injury. It can't be over-emphasized: big breakers are dangerous.


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## teqniqal (Jul 12, 2012)

gafftapegreenia said:


> Now, I've never felt like testing this while the dimmers disconnected from the board, but I know that I was once shocked by a dimmer I had set at 0% and then tried to rewire a plug on. So, I would disagree that killing data is enough.



NFPA 70E _Standard for Electrical Safety in the Workplace_, says: TURN OFF THE ELECTRICITY BEFORE YOU ATTEMPT TO WORK ON THE EQUIPMENT. Use Lock-Out Tag-Out equipment as necessary to prevent someone else from energizing the equipment without your permission. This is one of the reasons why there is a master power disconnect for the dimmer rack, and individual breakers on each dimmer output. The British Standards have a similar clause in their electrical code, too.


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## someguy98457 (Jul 17, 2012)

marmer said:


> I'd get an electrician for that


What do you consider an electrician? I'm about to be a senior in college, electrician/ wannabe lighting designer, haven't had a lot of classroom training in electrics, currently master electricianing a summerstock (which has turned into its own safety nightmare). I'm trying to be cognizant of of that dangerous zone of not knowing what you dont know. Is it industry standard in theater for electricians to be certified electricians? Or just cause I'm an "electrician" with a BA in theater and some resume work to back it up count? Cause I'm discovering quickly the vastness of my lack of knowledge in certain things, and I'd hate to let an employer to do the same.


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## josh88 (Jul 17, 2012)

someguy98457 said:


> What do you consider an electrician? I'm about to be a senior in college, electrician/ wannabe lighting designer, haven't had a lot of classroom training in electrics, currently master electricianing a summerstock (which has turned into its own safety nightmare). I'm trying to be cognizant of of that dangerous zone of not knowing what you dont know. Is it industry standard in theater for electricians to be certified electricians? Or just cause I'm an "electrician" with a BA in theater and some resume work to back it up count? Cause I'm discovering quickly the vastness of my lack of knowledge in certain things, and I'd hate to let an employer to do the same.




Unless you have a certification, your work wouldn't really hold up if something were to happen. Obviously if something happened and a proffessional did it, there would still be issues but an "amateur" just makes the situaion worse. Just because you are an "electrician" in that you work with lighting which uses electricity, doesn't mean you're qualified to wire a building etc... I think Marmer's statement was along the lines of when there's that much power flowing through something I don't want anybody except people who do that as their profession and know what they're doing to touch it. Just to be safe. For what it's worth, I know people who've been "master electrician" for a show but wouldn't have had the forethought or training to LOTO a rack before trying to pull a dimmer out of it. 

Long story short, I wouldn't advertise yourself as an electrician unless you've take courses or a certification and have real official training. I have done some work rewiring fixtures Etc... and list it as something I've done but make it clear anything more than A, B, or C would be outside of my realm of knowledge.


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## someguy98457 (Jul 17, 2012)

josh88 said:


> Unless you have a certification, your work wouldn't really hold up if something were to happen. Obviously if something happened and a proffessional did it, there would still be issues but an "amateur" just makes the situaion worse. Just because you are an "electrician" in that you work with lighting which uses electricity, doesn't mean you're qualified to wire a building etc... I think Marmer's statement was along the lines of when there's that much power flowing through something I don't want anybody except people who do that as their profession and know what they're doing to touch it. Just to be safe. For what it's worth, I know people who've been "master electrician" for a show but wouldn't have had the forethought or training to LOTO a rack before trying to pull a dimmer out of it.
> 
> Long story short, I wouldn't advertise yourself as an electrician unless you've take courses or a certification and have real official training. I have done some work rewiring fixtures Etc... and list it as something I've done but make it clear anything more than A, B, or C would be outside of my realm of knowledge.



I might have undercut my experience and training cause I dont want to be cocky, but my question, which I didn't phrase well, is where is the line? Does everyone have a certification that's a theater electrician? I'm not talking about doing building code and running conduit, or rather is that in fact a job for a house electrics crew? How far past hang, circuit, focus, movers, dmx, board programming, etc. etc. etc. does it go?


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## ruinexplorer (Jul 18, 2012)

someguy98457 said:


> I might have undercut my experience and training cause I dont want to be cocky, but my question, which I didn't phrase well, is where is the line? Does everyone have a certification that's a theater electrician? I'm not talking about doing building code and running conduit, or rather is that in fact a job for a house electrics crew? How far past hang, circuit, focus, movers, dmx, board programming, etc. etc. etc. does it go?


No, most theatrical electricians do not have certifications to be an electrician. The reason that ETCP was created was to weed out those who have glorified titles from their employers and who could cut the mustard with real world knowledge. This is why it takes knowledge and experience to be qualified to take the exam.

When I was a technical director of a road house, I devised a test for anyone who wanted to apply to be an on-call. Then I was able to rank them based on their knowledge and hire per show accordingly. Some things are practical knowledge, such as focusing a light or addressing a unit, and other things will take some smarts, such as calculating loads per circuit. I didn't have to worry about any of the major safety factors for power for my electricians since they would not be handling anything that would require more than very basic PPE. 

If you want to advance to be a Master Electrician of a large house or tour, you should definitely invest in electrician training. You need to learn about what work requires specific PPE. If you do not have specific training, you shouldn't be throwing a breaker greater than what is on a dimmer module (NOT THE RACK). Honestly, I don't think that most colleges and universities teach enough practical knowledge to keep their students safe in regards to electricity. I know mine didn't, nor several where I have worked. 

Without certification, you can still be a good lighting technician (I agree that it's not always good to use electrician as part of the title). After all, we are specialized consumers.


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## marmer (Jul 18, 2012)

Is there something I'm missing here? It seems like a simple concept. In theatre, electricians work with lighting gear, primarily, and sometimes other electrical theatrical systems. If it has to do with the building power or infrastructure, an electrician has to be licensed, at least in Texas. Even though it's the same word, I wouldn't assume one is the other. I don't think there's anything wrong with a user (with authorized access) resetting a 120V 20A breaker in a breaker box, but if it's bigger than that you should call a licensed electrician. Most colleges or school districts have them in their maintenance department.


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## someguy98457 (Jul 18, 2012)

marmer said:


> Is there something I'm missing here? It seems like a simple concept. In theatre, electricians work with lighting gear, primarily, and sometimes other electrical theatrical systems. If it has to do with the building power or infrastructure, an electrician has to be licensed, at least in Texas. Even though it's the same word, I wouldn't assume one is the other. I don't think there's anything wrong with a user (with authorized access) resetting a 120V 20A breaker in a breaker box, but if it's bigger than that you should call a licensed electrician. Most colleges or school districts have them in their maintenance department.



Right. I was just looking for clarification. Though we tend to kill power to the dimmers ourselves cause we have old D192's and the trays die on us some what regularly. 

Thanks ruinexplorer that's what I was looking for. Are there any other certificates I should be striving to get?


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## ruinexplorer (Jul 18, 2012)

That's the thing, right now to work in theater you don't need any certificates. For your own personal safety/knowledge, there are things to learn. Employers are supposed to provide safety training for workplace hazards. However, for our industry where so many of us are on-call or freelance employees, the employers often don't "get around" to offering that training, or they assume you already have it. So, if you can afford to get something like the OSHA 10-hour certificate, you will put yourself in a better position to keep yourself safe and know your rights. Take a class in fall protection. 

Also, make sure that you understand that there is a difference between certification and getting a certificate (of completion).

Edit: there's a good possibility that your facility manager does not know the risk of turning on and off your dimmers. They should have an electrical risk assessment done to know who is qualified to do so. Seriously, I will find some good arc-flash/blast videos on youube to post on this thread. What seems harmless can seriously injure or kill you.


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## museav (Jul 19, 2012)

I really wish there was some continuity and agreement regarding terms, titles and the associated roles. For example, Electrician, Electrical Contractor and Electrical Engineer. I'll bet that many people using an "Electrician" title don't even know the difference between these or understand the related roles and associated professional licensing.


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## gafftaper (Jul 19, 2012)

Just to mess things up further, as a teacher I've been required to have work done by the district/campus house electrician from time to time. While these are real state licensed "electricians", their knowledge ends at installing new breaker panels, repairing classroom light switches, and working on motors in the building HVAC system. Not an insult to them but they aren't trained in theater electrical systems and have no idea what's going on in a dimmer rack. More than once I've had to intervene to make sure the district's house electrician didn't damage my theater equipment or himself. We are highly specialized and yet often need the help of a "real" electrician. I've found that working together with the district/campus electrician is the best strategy, show up at the theater with a box of donuts the day the work will be done and say you are there to learn more from him about how your system works, ask questions and try to make yourself part of the team.


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## marmer (Jul 19, 2012)

Yes, exactly what he said. I've also found that our campus electricians tend to play nice with dealer/factory service reps.


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## photoatdv (Jul 19, 2012)

And to make things even more confusing some places require electricians for Camlok connections. The place I worked that did was more along the "require" lines in that is was not enforced at all-- but I believe some places it is. Most places seem to go with requiring "qualified personnel" for single pole connectors (ex camlok). That said pretty much the only time I deal with tie-ins is when we're using gennys, and my normal genny supplier is a licensed electrical contractor.


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## BobHealey (Jul 19, 2012)

photoatdv said:


> And to make things even more confusing some places require electricians for Camlok connections. The place I worked that did was more along the "require" lines in that is was not enforced at all-- but I believe some places it is. Most places seem to go with requiring "qualified personnel" for single pole connectors (ex camlok). That said pretty much the only time I deal with tie-ins is when we're using gennys, and my normal genny supplier is a licensed electrical contractor.


One of the venues I've been in had a compromise with the camlocs. They'd permanently wire a company switch to a posiloc panel, all in conduit and nicely done, and that could be used without their presence assuming the other end was also posiloc. As soon as one end went to standard cams, the electrician was then required. Same for temporary cam tie points - if it wasn't hard wired, electrician time.


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## LavaASU (Jul 20, 2012)

"Posiloc panel"??? All I can find in a quick google search is for 14-22awg wires.


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## techieman33 (Jul 20, 2012)

LavaASU said:


> "Posiloc panel"??? All I can find in a quick google search is for 14-22awg wires.



He probably meant powerloc.


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## zmb (Jul 20, 2012)

LavaASU said:


> "Posiloc panel"??? All I can find in a quick google search is for 14-22awg wires.



This is the closest thing to wiring I found too: Posi-Lock(R) - The Best Connectors You'll Ever Use!. But it doesn't seem like anymore than an improvement on wire nuts for in-wall wire connections. I got results on Bing for 4 wheel drive systems and gymnasium safety along with that.


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## avkid (Jul 20, 2012)

Crouse-Hinds Posi-Lok


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## techieman33 (Jul 20, 2012)

zmb said:


> This is the closest thing to wiring I found too: Posi-Lock(R) - The Best Connectors You'll Ever Use!. But it doesn't seem like anymore than an improvement on wire nuts for in-wall wire connections. I got results on Bing for 4 wheel drive systems and gymnasium safety along with that.



Just FYI, posi lock for a car has nothing to do with 4 wheel drive. It's GM's name for a limited slip differential.


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## teqniqal (Jul 23, 2012)

LavaASU said:


> "Posiloc panel"??? All I can find in a quick google search is for 14-22awg wires.



Posi-Lok(TM) is a cam-loc like product group distributed by Crouse-Hinds (Cooper Electric).
Posi-Lok

It is a safety-interlocked system that requires the sequential connection of ground, then neutral, then hot phase leg(s) so that you can't have a situation where the legs are hot without a ground and neutral connection. To disconnect the conductors your reverse the sequence. Several other companies also make similar systems, but most of them are not inter-compatible physically.


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## mstaylor (Jul 29, 2012)

This is along the discussion that I started last year. I was questioning the differences in our industry in terms for the same job. Theatre seems to like titles so their lighting people are called electricians. In the touring world you have lighting techs that do the same job, sometimes more. A theatre electrician has levels just like anywhere else. A master electrician is simply the guy in charge of the rig. Depending on the theatre or tour he could simply be supervising the hang and focus, sometimes the board op and followspots. Sometimes he doubles as the board op. He could also be responsible for maintenance of the rig and even movers repairs. Certainly if he is on a theatre tour this is true. None of this requires him to actually be an electrian but he certainly has to have electrical knowledge. 
An electrician is usually just a stagehand that knows how to hang and focus. He may also know how to do electrical repairs in the rig, build cables, change lamps and other basic things. 
An actual electrician has to be trained and either be licensed or work under a licensed person. He may have absolutely no idea how to do anything to a dimmer rack, board or other parts of the system. He does know how the power is supplied and how to lock out/tag out the system. Then he can let the person trained to repair the equipment do the repairs. It is no different than cutting the power to a boiler and letting the boiler mechanic fix it. 
An electrical engineer is an animal that rarely found in a theatre except when being built or remodeled. My brother in law is one and runs design teams for Westinghouse. He called me to explain how to wire a sub panel in his house.


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## sk8rsdad (Jul 30, 2012)

mstaylor said:


> An electrical engineer is an animal that rarely found in a theatre.



... except perhaps in community theatre where there might be many of them working on the same show, sometimes as actors.  Don't get me started on the overuse of the word _engineer_, which is arguably even more abused than the word _electrician_.


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## What Rigger? (Jul 31, 2012)

iAdam said:


> Spose..
> How do american places get away with it though?
> Same with rigging?



Hey Adam, not all us Yanks get away with it. My company (whom I am not allowed to name here), has recently gone through Arc Flash training and now I am no longer allowed to open certain types of electrical panels and/or breaker boxes without personal protective equipment (various levels of face shields, electrical safety gloves, etc...), or in certain cases we must don full body protective suits. We were told this in training by one of our ESTA/ETCP certified LX's: "We are going in line with the European standards."

Now, when you add in my dimmer rack that's inside of a "confined space"- headaches for days. But we learn it, use it, and suck it up I suppose. 

Footer's got a good idea, DO Google "arc flash". That ain't no 110v shock.

But yes, I do feel for you.


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## gafftaper (Jul 31, 2012)

When I spent my day backstage at Cirque Ka (during LDI 2008) I was amazed at the attention to detail for every safety rule. There are breaker panels all over that theater. Every time you would find that they had a clearly taped off perimeter on the floor with a lab coat, gloves, and safety glasses located nearby. The T.D. said that on their most recent inspection they were told that the only violation in the entire theater was something minor about the storage of empty propane tanks. It was amazing!


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## StNic54 (Aug 21, 2012)

I can understand your frustrations, and outside of general liability concerns, insurance, and potential for lawsuits (once you're hurt), everything does come down to qualified individuals working with potentially dangerous (or expensive) equipment. As a high school student in the 90s, we were limited in what we were allowed to do in our theatre, still broke rules here and there, but we all stayed safe and injury-free. Juxtapose that with the local movie theatre I worked at - I received several major electrical shocks on that job, all accidental, and somehow I survived it all without any trips to the hospital. As a college student, I saw people break and smash hands, fall off stages and break bones, sever fingers, and all of this was due to the same exact cause - poor safety regulations mixed with brave, untrained people. I even fell into an orchestra pit and broke a rib, and I didn't press a suit against the school. Looking back, with proper safety precautions and equipment maintenance, ALL of those scenarios would have been avoided. I'm sure you've read plenty of lecture-like responses on this thread, but just know that it's ok to accept a circumstance as 'it is what it is' because ultimately, once you graduate and move on, the same qualified dimmer-turner-offer will still be there flipping switches while you are riding into the sunset with high school far, far behind you.
Cheers!


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