# Lighting tutorials and systems



## goldenillusions (Apr 16, 2004)

Hi everyone, I'm new to this forum so hopefully this is the right place for my question. I've spent the last 2 years working with three companies one as sound crew head and two as artistic director. However, this coming year my high school is losing all of its light crew and my director wants me to take on the position of technical director despite the fact that I have yet to operate a lights board. As we've discussed this we've also been discussing what systems we should be using next year (we're currently building a new theater and deciding upon new lights and sound systems.) So I was hoping that someone here would have suggestions for tutorials as well as good boards that are logical for high school theater. If you have any suggestions as to these topics I would be very appreciative, thank you so much.


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## rapscaLLion (Apr 16, 2004)

Er... the only thing I can say is: ETC Express consoles rock. For highschools anyway...


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## goldenillusions (Apr 16, 2004)

so ive heard, i think thats what we are planning on but im just looking to see if there are any better options out there. thanks for your help!


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## Radman (Apr 17, 2004)

You just happen to be in luck! I spend more time putting together lighting and sound systems than I do on my homework. I look through more catalogs...

I would recommend for lighting, asuming that you have a basically high budget, and that you are getting a basically standard theater, getting:


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## ship (Apr 17, 2004)

goldenillusions said:


> my director wants me to take on the position of technical director despite the fact that I have yet to operate a lights board. As we've discussed this we've also been discussing what systems we should be using next year (we're currently building a new theater and deciding upon new lights and sound systems.) So I was hoping that someone here would have suggestions for tutorials as well as good boards that are logical for high school theater. If you have any suggestions as to these topics I would be very appreciative, thank you so much.



I'm always floored by such things happening. Hard to learn tech without someone there to train you no matter how good the tutorial or book. Much less the liability in things not known also. Sorry no offense, and welcome, we all do our best, but I would think the absolute best thing your theater can do for next year is to salary in a TD to teach you rather than new gadgets to tinker with and new space to play in. Even if there is no budget left, you can make something out of nothing given the proper training in doing so, and often those lessons are the most valuable of all. It is school after all. Hard to come up with an inspiration or new technique without guidance and instruction.

ETC Express many say is a good light board and I believe ETC has a tutorial for it. After that, ask away for other questions but I could only hope such resorces such as us could be more in supplementing on-site instruction.


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## bdesmond (Apr 17, 2004)

ship said:


> Hard to learn tech without someone there to train you no matter how good the tutorial or book. Much less the liability in things not known also.



I'm with ship here. Learning from somebody who knows their stuff is a lot easier, and a lot more productive than from a book. You can learn to program a console from a book. You can't learn how to do stuff safely, pick the right equipment for a space, etc.

I playe dwith a Strand 300 series console today, and I was quite convinced that it would do a great job in the high school space I'm in (not that big of a space). You might consider taking a look at it in addition to the ETC. Find someone in your area who is going to sell the stuff to you, and ask them to demo both consoles for you.


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## goldenillusions (Apr 17, 2004)

i agree that learning from someone else is a much better option. however our adminsitration refuses to hire anyone new to our theater department, meaning that we have no technical director and no one with experience in lighting next year. i know that it is possible to learn tech via manuals etc. simply b/c that is how i learned sound, however i do agree that learning from someone with experience would be a great option, it just happens to be an option that i currently do not have.


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## Les (Apr 17, 2004)

Try volunteering at a community theatre. If there's one in your area, I'm sure they have some positions to fill. Granted community theatres aren't usually the most professional of venues, you usually come across some really talented people, and its a great place to get used to a different environment, different personnel, different rules, and a different way of doing theatre than youre used to. Community theatre is usually a volunteer-run organization (usually including the actors) but its a great place to get a head start and get youre name out there. I can't tell you how many paying jobs I've gotten from people who know me from the theatre. As for youre lighting system, and based on my own experience, I would try to stay loyal to ETC as much as possible. Altman makes good parcans and fresnels, and the Strand 'Iris' CYC lights are pretty amazing too. If youre budget is REALLY high, the Expression line of consoles are about as good as it gets for high school.


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## Radman (Apr 17, 2004)

You dissin community theater?!
Take a look at this!
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## Les (Apr 17, 2004)

Don't get offended or anything... There are always exceptions...
Looks like a great house, the community I started out at was a renovated movie house built back in the 1950's. It is nice, with good lighting and sound, but it had a small budget per show, so some of the set work was alittle compromised. The acting was a little sketchy as well, but it was a great experience to get me used to something other than high school.
My particular community theatre only sat 350 and was really small, but I'm sure yours is extra fancy.


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## goldenillusions (Apr 17, 2004)

yeah im already artistic director with a fairly new community theater company in my area and have learned more than i could ever have expected from the experience... although that is a great point since we do actually have a technical director who could at least give me a great deal of the basic knowledge i need... hmm.... thanks so much, thats rather useful.  have a great day.


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## goldenillusions (Apr 17, 2004)

yeah im already artistic director with a fairly new community theater company in my area and have learned more than i could ever have expected from the experience... although that is a great point since we do actually have a technical director who could at least give me a great deal of the basic knowledge i need... hmm.... thanks so much, thats rather useful.  have a great day.


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## Radman (Apr 18, 2004)

Just so you know that was an arrow pointing at www.duluthplayhouse.org for your information. Maybe you already knew that.


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## goldenillusions (Apr 18, 2004)

yeah, i saw that. thanks


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## Radman (Apr 18, 2004)

That was for lester.


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## Les (Apr 19, 2004)

yeah. I got that too... Hence when I said, "looks like a great house".


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## zac850 (Apr 19, 2004)

I would also suggest the ETC Express light board. My school just got one, and it is my new love (after my girlfriend, of corse ). We got the board in during spring break (of which I spent 90% of at school) and after that had tech week, and then the show. I felt fairly proficient after about an hour of using it, and after a week I felt that I had mastered enough to program in some chase effects as well as a 110 or so cue show. It is extremely easy to use. I had one guy who knew how to use it show me the basics of how to use it, and after that I just messed around with it for a few hours and figured out how everything works and how to soft patch and stuff.....

you can't go wrong with ETC


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## digitaltec (Apr 19, 2004)

I agree, ETC Express is a great console to begin with. Every command with that console is easy and straight forward. Everyone has a different skill level and I beleive that this is the best console to get everyone on the same page. Now I have heard that strand consoles are good but I personally have never used one and always request a ETC when dealing wih conventionals. ETC has a good name and reputation and their manuals are easy to understand. If anyone ever needs help with their ETC consoles, feel free to drop me a line any day. I may not respond ASAP unless it's an emergancy.


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## Les (Apr 20, 2004)

Yeah, I saw that too... Hence, when I said, "Looks like a great house..." lol


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## chris512 (Apr 20, 2004)

guess it all depends on the size of your school and the sort of events that you do etc...

the sixth form college i'm in the uk has a student number of around 600, and we have invested in a new Pearl 2004 because of our amount of wobbleys (32 mac's of various types) that we need to control.

but i would seriously look at strand, i'm currently using a 520i at a theatre near me and its a superb desk and has a lot of functionality but is around £10,000 (about $15000? i'm guessing), a strand 300 may be more your thing......but have never come across an ETC desk.


but my advice is to get involved in every possible experience you can, its the only way to learn


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## dj_illusions (Apr 21, 2004)

I think that we are talking about more simpler desks, and not as pricey also...

We just bought a new Strand 520i and it was alot more than 15,000. 

I personally think for a school, if there are no movers then you will generally only need a two present desk that you can program and stack. I will always recommend the Jands Event desks for this purpose out there as I dont have much knowledge of American equipment. Ihave used a NSI Innovator however. -which i didnt like.


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## Mayhem (Apr 21, 2004)

What are your thoughts on the Jands ESPII Jeremy?


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## Les (Apr 21, 2004)

Whats wrong with the Innovator, out of curiosity?


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## dj_illusions (Apr 22, 2004)

I think that the ESP is a great value for money console, and would use the ESP desks anyday over an LSC Atom/Axiom and Zero88 Elara. It has all the basic functions of an event, and all the features of both those desks and gets the job done!

The innovator I use, was one of only 4 in the country at present, it was specially imported with the other four and converted to australian power. I thought the desk was a huge let down, after been told what it was capable of, it was a different concpet to most desks I have used and it seemed like a try-hard strand 500 desk however did not perform anywhere near as good as I would expect it to have considering what it was based upon.


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## SuperCow (Apr 22, 2004)

My school recently got an ETC Emphasis, and it was really easy to learn how to run and to progpam subs and cues. I named it Eulalie, for no reason.


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## Les (Apr 25, 2004)

What are the Zero 88 desks like? I've seen the FROG Series. The Bull Frog looks cool. Would you rather go with ETC over Zero 88? The ETC Express looks much more professional, and seems to be 'proven' in the industry. I have never seen a Zero88 board in a professional application, though I do know they exist.


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## dj_illusions (Apr 25, 2004)

Im gonna pretend u didnt say that....

I used a Zero88 for a show, because the company the I *used* to hire gear from told me it was good. It was the biggest mistake I have ever made. I really didnt like the desk and didnt find it very userfriendly. 

I posted on the Zero88 forum that I was not happy iwth the desk, and suggested some improvements that might make the desk easier to use. I was contacted by a rep from Zero88 in England who told me that their Frog range of desks had not been very succesfull, he apologised for the incoviences the desk had caused me and asked for my input as they were currently working on a series two console (dont know what happend to it). 

The guy from the hire place contacted me and told me I was full of crap, and didnt know what I was talking about. He told me I wouldnt know a good desk if it hit me over the head and that he thought these were great desks. So obviously you can see why I have never been back. 

I now hire from a new company where i get the privellages of hiring strands, hog's & avo desks for the same price i was flogged the Frog Desk.

Its up to you, but I would suggest staying away from the desks.... =)


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## SMTashi (Apr 25, 2004)

That was just an idiot from the hire company though. Personally I'm not fond of the Frog desks because we have a Zero88 in one of our auditoriums which gives us a LOT of problems.


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## dj_illusions (Apr 25, 2004)

Yeah, as I said the guy from Zero88 was very understanding and even apologised for the incoveniance the desk had caused me.

I was simply saying the reason why I had not been back to that particular hire company. (mayhem might understand).

I had quite a number of issues with the desk when using it, one of the major ones was with programming, I also found that the manual was very inadiquet for the desk and often confuesed matters. It even left out some very impportant aspects that were vital to the operation of the desk!


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## Les (Apr 25, 2004)

Since we're on the subject of bad desks, I was recently on a UIL One-Act Play trip in San Angelo, TX. (we advanced to state 4AAAA, by the way). We're competing in the Bass Hall at Austin on May 7th. Anyways, At the campus where the regional conference was held (Angelo State University) 
I actually had to use a rheostat board for the first time in my life. Basically, for one-act play contests, there are 'auditorium standards' as far as the lighting system and other technical aspects are concerned. Somehow, this one slipped through. I had to run an entire show (with lots of crossfades) on what I would guess as being a pre-1970's board. It was a 40 channel x 3-scene Strand desk. The show I was working on had 3 looks for the different locations, so that would have worked out perfectly except for the fact that scene 2 did not work, so I had to run it all manually.Well, I did good, but I never want to do it again. I now have much more respect for our lighting elders.


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## Mayhem (Apr 25, 2004)

dj_illusions said:


> I think that the ESP is a great value for money console, and would use the ESP desks anyday over an LSC Atom/Axiom and Zero88 Elara. It has all the basic functions of an event, and all the features of both those desks and gets the job done!


Thanks for the confirmation of what I was thinking. As most of my work occurs in venues with only single phase power I have basically survived using several 4pak dimmers for my lighting. It seems though that a few more venues are putting in 3 phase (mainly 20A – why not 32A I just don’t know) and with a few more movers, I figure it is time to get a decent desk. 

dj_illusions said:


> I was simply saying the reason why I had not been back to that particular hire company. (mayhem might understand).


Yep – do some equipment hire myself (as well as having to hire some for the bigger shows). The person you refer to obviously doesn’t understand the value of having customers (or you just p!$$ him off that much that he wanted to get rid of you as a customer  ). Had it been a piece of equipment that I had hired to you and then heard that it was not up to your expectations, I would have:
1.	Found out why – was it broken/faulty or did it just not meet your expectations
2.	Had it been a problem with the equipment, I would have refunded you (for that item) and given you discount on your next hire.
3.	If it wasn’t what you wanted or expected, I would discuss with you why and then offer assistance if I thought that you were not using it correctly or that it didn’t meet your needs. No refund in this situation (probably a discount on your next hire), but hopefully the advice would assist you in the future.

At the end of the day, me having to give you a discount on your next hire is better than not having your next hire. I am happy to see that you didn’t use this forum to badmouth or even name the company involved.


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## ship (Apr 26, 2004)

I made a living off people telling me I’m crazy, than me proving them wrong with time. Those are bosses and not places I’m a customer to. I now work for a place that the bosses don’t call me crazy as much, and let me go with my wacky ideas more. On the other hand, the problems I deal with are much more huge also, from it seeming like gear we rent always is the gear that needs major work from other sources in them sending us their worst gear possible for us to fix given our quality level is much higher, so they get back some well maintained gear after the rental, to major equipment issues that can also be a safety thing - direct to the vendor.

Should any vendor rep or sales person tell me I’m crazy in a other than friendly way without also taking my problems to hart in a very serious way, that would instantly force me to fire off an E-Mail to their boss in telling why I’m no longer going to be shopping with them and will also no longer advise shopping with them, just as I would expect my customers to complain about me should I lack tact or service. At very least my end reply is there will be future orders, if not on this and not to worry too much about the sale as long as it’s not a constant battle.

Granted now a days my complaints have a lot more force and requires instant attention by their management if I have the company I work for below my name attached to the E-Mail because it’s an official complaint and not an informal one, but also the fact that I don’t want to be stepping on too many toes more tact is required in any such thing on the official side. It’s a small industry and even if your affiliation is not attached, people have long memories as to who pissed them off. Goes both ways, that sales person that pissed you off is going to be hampered in his career also. The big boss gets to step on toes in my case, I’m required to go thru him for approval on major stepping on toes things as is smart. Every couple of months I’m reminded by my big boss to call the big boss at one of our major suppliers I stepped on the toes of, they want a hart to hart with me that can’t be a good thing. So far I’m just too forgetful or busy to deal with it, but such a call and chat about stepping on toes or biting the hand that feeds you is coming. I was right about my problems, but lacked tack in expressing it. You as a student or more specific end user are allowed to claim a title and affiliation to add weight to your complaint, and even without it, all vendors will be interested in your comments if they are smart and your are specific about the problem beyond slamming them in general. On the other hand, you still have to follow a procedure for addressing issues before you slam someone or gear.

I still do send such letters still in a limited or off the books way. Such as I hate your phone system, and since everyone in your entire shop was out to lunch, you just missed out on a 4K order amongst other orders I need to talk with someone live about but can’t get thru on. Work on your phone system which left me on terminal hold, much less a human to eventually pick up and you might get more sales. We as good friends otherwise argued about the sales staff leaving for lunch and shutting down the phone system requiring me to not expect instant attention to my question, but at least my comments were taken to hart. In other words, we will work on our phone system, but if you require instant attention during our lunch hour, than by all means contact other vendors. Simple and honest, if you can’t wait than don’t expect my help. Other companies I don’t shop at when they don’t return my calls with problems. Sorry but if you can’t pick up the phone to tell me I’m going to have to wait a while for something I ordered, much less won’t return repeated calls in asking about the order, you should not expect future orders, and by the way cancel that one. I have $400.00 worth of bins on an order from Grainger sitting next to my desk I need to repeat a hello, I cancelled this order two weeks ago because you could not get it in time, to the complaint I expressed a week ago. In this case, I’ll do one call a week to the vendor rep until I get action, and we will stop the payment on the bill thus it will be answered or we will not shop at them. Such a cancel that order even if by mistake I still get the cancelled order usually does get the return call at least even if I don’t give the order back to them. And still the sales people wonder why I don’t shop with them more. One week they sell washing machines, the next it’s lamps. Granted it’s normally not the case, but a sales person is his own breed. Used to be one, never liked it thus I don’t now. 

In another case after a screw up I got a 55 gal. drum of haze fluid by mistake instead of individual gallons at the volume discount as ordered. Than they send a bill for not only the pump for the drum which will by agreement be refunded once I return the pump, but also am charged for shipping on the empty containers overnight and for the containers that were supposed to be free in solving the problem. This was worked out with the sales rep, and all in a sudden we get a bill and the owner for them says it was both of our problem in the order in me not having been extremely specific in not wishing for the 55gal drum I had in past orders not ordered the exact same order to. The fact that I was now overcharged for the drum given that price included the containers and also had to pay an over-priced amount for the empty bottles to correct the problem plus overnight shipping for them which I said was not necessary, given the owner was acting more like a sales person than problem solver I was screwed. Now we have a problem. The big boss for us that wanted me to solve it reminded me not to step on too many toes but we would not pay for the extra gear or shipping. Good advice, and that vendor rep suddenly became hard to contact, but thanks for throwing the ball back to me without solution you needed to solve. I bought a new pump at a cheaper price, and got the empty bottles at a discount also elsewhere, than sent back what was left in the empty bottles and that same model of pump immediately. Than for my next and future orders, I contacted another company about future sales that while a bit more expensive per container or drum, that company that caused me problems is now out of the loop in a silent way same as the last company that had a shipping problem and was late in delivery. They having shipped me late in delivery did not expect future orders, just as the company that screwed me should not expect more sales. Nothing personal or public, just business. Want to make issue of both of our problem, than you don’t get future sales in the solution you advised to it in keeping me as a customer. Thanks, due to a mistake, I’m now sold on buying 55 gal. drums for my haze fluid needs, just not from you now. We in the end are screwed in paying shipping and over expensive charges in empty bottles that were used since than, in addition to being overcharged for the drum we were shipped, but that’s all brownie points against me as a buyer as opposed to my general worth. Hopefully I’m more worth my value than one screwed up order thanks to a owner of a company that just assured himself of no future sales but in still being nice to him. Got a $1,500.oo bonus soon afterwards for work last year in profit sharing - though not specifically related, I expect I’m forgiven in general. We lost something like $600.00 on the deal but it’s at least taken care of in a educational level. The vendor on the other hand loses out on a few grand a year in sales from me. Just business. Hope you train your sales people better in solving problems, than you as their boss stand by what’s decided by them in keeping a customer. Certain things I do have to order thru them thus it was wise not to burn bridges, on the other hand, they burned their own bridge with me as a buyer or end user.

Much less of late two companies gave me instant and very interested attention in raising a non official capacity question about their gear similar to the Frog issues but in my case, very specific in problem and them doing a behind the scenes study in it on stuff that could not be admitted publically given there is a problem - and it’s early in the research on it. Such attention is normal for vendors no matter what scale you are a customer in and if you get vendors that don’t instantly help you such as Philips lighting who has crappy help people on the whole in almost never getting back to you with answers, than you should be very concerned and am well within your rights for slamming them publically at least after you go to the top of the company in keeping it other than public. Plus not shopping at them. 

Have not contacted the owners of Philips lighting directly - as if, but I expect me slamming them on help they constantly don’t give is not a problem since it’s a constant issue even on their own forum I and others have raised. Anything from hello, my overhead Par lamp’s lens just fell apart and fell on my daughter sitting below it that did not receive more than a two month belated, for any questions, call the Philips 800 number for service as normal response with out any help to those concerned having read it, to at one point in two years on their “forum” receiving a useful public response from the vendor rep in India on a question - the only time. Used to be they had one of their engineers in a non-official capacity answering questions, he is yet to return since. That as opposed to GE, where even if they can’t give me a reason I can’t have the color temperature to a lamp, at least get back to me with a response to my question. Or Ushio that links me with an engineer, or Osram that gives me a permanent E-Mail address to a engineer should I have any future questions.

At the moment I’m requested by both companies of late I have issues with to do a study with them on the problems and keep it quiet because it’s both very technical and very end user specific for now until the problem is solved. That is the nature of business in not dirtying the waters with problems that hopefully can be solved with an upgrade. For that they will attempt to solve the problems for everyone else in a formal way once shown to be a problem given special attention and very much interest, but not starting a panic or bad company name for them should I mention names and specific problems publically. One company that this is a problem with would probably be needing to do a general recall on all these AC Distros about, but that’s their own thing to solve and none of my business given they are paying me for my times and materials to solve the problem for us, and they have solved the problem on future orders and keep that in mind on such future orders. After my specific problems are addressed, I’m out of it and it is their own liability having the largest play in the matter with other people’s problems up until the time it is not solved by them and others note the problem and do not have it solved as I did. Up in smoke from a very serious design flaw being the operative concept, but an easy fix requiring some materials and a lot of time to correct, but an honest - who will have known mistake. The other problem is potentially a huge industry wide problem that will become noted in time, requiring a most serious and major fix, but needs to be solved on the QT for now until it’s fully understood even by me much less by them. That QT allows for the time to solve the problem before others notice it. That’s the professional way of solving problems before they become an issue in general.

This is the proper way of doing things. Otherwise if problems are to be addressed soon with a fix to the software or upgrade to the equipment than that’s a solution that is now public info as long as it’s the manufacturer doing it and not you slamming them in taking credit for the problem out of your own glory seeking. Saying Fat Frog/Zero 88 light boards are bad in general is your opinion and should not really be stated as more than that and than only specifically to your application for the gear. Taking it as a general crap leaves you open to attack and in general is not helpful as I’m sure the gear has a use. Given your problems and the stated upgraded version, plus their personal help and offers they gave you to make up for your situation all is good and more details in the limitations would be good for all, but in the same sense since Fat Frog is addressing the issue, they are not on the bad company list and need to be listed as such in the same respect as the specific problems they are working on. Strand has numerous and public problems for instance, especially with US type service and support, but they do fix the problems and Canadian and UK sources for help on their gear still make Strand gear worth the money spent. It balances out between the expense and lack of service in general for Strand in the US, verses the overall world wide help and uniqueness of the equipment. 

Even Amerian DJ equipment has value given my last vendor rep with them that knew what he was doing long since left to start his own company, as with Altman who had a great help for me having left, but was soon to be replaced by the department manager in addressing my problems and is soon becoming a special source in solving problems in her own right. Another company had someone that was special and central to all support at one point, she left for some unstated but important thinking criminal reason leaving a momentary open hole in the support. Given it was a temporary thing such problems in support have been solved since just as well. It’s in the nature of companies to solve problems, that service/support side is just if not even more important than the sales side or that company gets a quick suck added to their name in limitating their value. Granted most service people at the general rental/sales companies are lucky to have enough experience to know the black from the white wire but if the company you deal with treats their employees well, and they are more than armatures, you should expect the service you pay extra for. In other words, you get what you pay for both in product and service/support. Not always the case, but a letter to the higher ups would otherwise solve the problem. You know I can eat alive any sales person from Grand Stage, or Design Lab, they know gear in general and that’s their purpose. If on the other hand, just as our sales people have questions they can’t solve they send the client to me, with such companies I bypass their general knowledge sales staff just as you should if you have a specific problem. Such a sales person if you were not satisfied was proving to be both immature in helping you, and now knowing his trade professionally. He or she should have pushed you up the chain of command no matter how difficult you are or solved your problem.

Heck, I can call Steiner Electric - a major electrical supplier and they still won’t know what I’m asking about. Just the nature of you get what you pay for on people that anser the phone economically and asking questions of people that are a wee bit below being able to help you. If you have a problem, take it to those that can help you and don’t be upset by the limitations of those that answer the phone. That’s general economics. When I stop at my local Ace Hardware and ask them if they have grounding clips, I fully expect to explain the concept, much less that a round head screw is going to have a smaller head dia. than a pan-head screw, than have to show thus educate them on the concept of head dia. What is this plain steel and not zinc coated anyway? $0.33 per screw and it’s not even zinc coated? “Helpful hardware Man” (person) my rear, we will teach you my rear also (sorry but I once applied for a job in such a place and was not hired, now they have my constant contempt because even than I knew more than the helpful hardware man.) Same story with service/support staff on the first echelon in general for budget type places such as similar to your local hardware store. If you have a problem, especially if you quickly get a sense you know more about the equipment than they do, go to the management before you write them off and to add to that publically write them off. I expect intimate knowledge on the fat frog was a bit beyond the level of your sales person. Don’t get upset, should they directly tell you that you are wacked, report it so they can be educated, but don’t give up on the source quite yet. I’m sure you deal with idiot crew people, such companies also have to deal with idiot individuals. You not only don’t do yourself a service, but you do your fellow crew people dealing with them a disservice by not reporting your issues with them just as a person not reported to you goes under your notice and does you disservice.

Altman for us used to be a company everyone where I work said sucked. All it took for me with us was finding that one sales rep that gave a care and all our various problems were addressed with them if not better with them than with other companies. Since he left, I found his boss to be just as good in taking care of us and our orders thru them be it parts and problems or few thousand dollar sales are right on line with excellent service and amongst if not better than the top of sources for gear. Often it is the vendor rep. or sales person responsible for the problem because with theater people in general in this industry, there is people that care just as much as you. Thus my washing machine analogy as to what sales people might sell tomorrow when they prove to be more sales than theater person. The other option is those intrusted with your sale know less about what you are using than you do. I can sell an Obsession to someone, much less a Mac 250, does not mean I know what it does were I playing sales person. Used to even design and decks for people almost 20 years ago, yet today while watching Ship Shape TV on PBS, I just learned about what type of lumber for out door use by saturation level I should have been selling all those years ago. Wonder how many decks and other things me as a sales person have rotted or fallen apart since because of my recommendations as at times even the most senior sales person in the store.

You would be surprised how fast those issues are corrected at that point by vendor reps once you contact them directly. Even me as a college kid that once ordered some parts from Altman by way of a vendor - Design Lab who could not get the parts in time and were sorry in blaming it on Altman itself, fired off a letter to Altman when there was a long delay in getting those parts. Something about the Shakespeare taking up all their attention in getting it ready for USITT or LDI when it was coming to market, and thus all parts orders being backlogged in simply just shipping them out for other fixtures. Did not help my show needing those parts thus the letter. Robert Altman himself called me at my dorm room to apologize personally and offer me a lot of stuff including one of the first HX-600 lamps produced and not yet sold to make up for them screwing up. Not only when you have a problem should you contact your vendor rep, but in keeping your problems off of public knowledge, your problem had better be solved if not even taken up to the top in keeping you a life long customer no matter what level you are at. Example being me now as a major customer having had a owner of a large company taking the time to contact some peon student amongst thousands. I now have direct E-Mail with a sales rep at Altman, we chat at least once a month at least. Robert Altman having contacted me 15 years before hand still has a role in the trust I have in that company. The Zero 88 vendor rep that contacted you should have a similar response in you for future trust, they would and should with most people.

On the hire/rental side, much less retail side it’s not the gear provided, but the solution to the problem you are renting. If that gear malfunctions or does not work for your needs, than I as the renter am responsible to fix the problem immediately because it’s not your fault but mine. Be it from taking my own time to visit you and either train you in the gear I’m renting you to make it work or advising on other gear before hand, given it’s not too complex for you to understand, in which case I failed as a sales person in not either training you or not renting the gear to you without charging you for a programmer to do it for you or classes in training as can also be necessary. In any case, if I have to run you out another system, and right now than install it to make up for your lost time, or offer you a discount on your next order after offering my sincere apologies for your problems with my gear, any notes and help or comments you can offer me off my gear will be given a most serious and crucial noting and will effect my future thoughts about the equipment until I solve the problem for myself and you. You might not shop with me again, but since I have rented you the gear now, I’m responsible for any problems it causes you. Even if the sales end is not my primary focus for me, that’s about general for all companies from the manufacturer to the rental company in general be it no matter who, once you find the tech people with them above the clueless washing machine sales people. If Ravinia is having a problem and it’s two hours before the show, either me as the ME will be out there to fix it or there will be another service tech almost as qualified if I’m not available that will be very much on the phone with me to fix it as necessary - given I could not solve the problem with you over the phone as support staff. It’s that purple striped wire you did not describe as coming off the terminal block, while working with you to solve the problem, find it and I expect your spot light will work. Same advice I give, most vendor reps will also. Your gear as a rental will work if you work with me some in finding a unique problem I did not foresee in the rental. Rental systems are supposed to work, that’s what you pay for. If it does not, it’s very rare to find a company that won’t stand by the stuff they rent you. If they did not prep it right and you need to work on it, than that’s deducted off the rental charge at least if not admittedly by both of us something that’s unique, and if my support makes up for it there is no reason to expect better service elsewhere.

That person that said you were stupid basically was very much in the wrong and deserves a Kurt and formal letter to his boss in telling him both of the problem and how the service staff helped you with it. On the other hand, if you posted your problem publically on line, than you have gone beyond the informal specific to you problem with the gear and should be flamed given you jumped over the head of those best able to help you directly in keeping your specific problem a specific solution. A mature response from the company will have been to marginalize your reaction to their gear in being sorry they could not help you, and you should have contacted them as a renter first, but in general also setting the record straight. Not humblizing you in your abilities or singling you out but being mature in response. Once you take such a complaint on line on the other hand before you contact the company, especially it’s management that might not know the sales people have problems with customer service directly however you do leave yourself open to being slammed. If you have a problem with me or where I work, I expect to be contacted directly and not have it public unless that’s the next step given I was of no use in solving the problem and your problem was not addressed by my own higher ups. Public posting of problems have to be addressed as a last resort, and if that problem was solved but still exists can be noted but only with an appropriate balance in the other values of the product. To date, though I don’t use light boards in general, much less the Zero 88, I’m yet to hear of other they suck opinions thus I even marginalize your comments about it in weighing them but since they were not specific to details don’t weigh them as well as other comments as them being useful in general.

Hope it helps, for note, there was someone on Lighting Network that has serious issues with Martin as a company. He was perhaps smart not to post his name in providing the info on the problems because his name will have been remembered, but also he became a stick in the mud quickly in giving us info in general useful to know about, but after that fighting a battle way outside of respectability which seriously hurt his cause. The Martin vendor reps on the other hand seemed very sensible. Tact is very appropriate all around in presenting balanced arguments. Have a problem with a renter, contact the management first. If they are still idiots, than you are well worth your value in maintaining your views publically about them. If that problem is about a product you should also contact them. Same thing, if you don’t get help, contact the management. This can be on line but needs to be kept fair and balanced because you never know when it’s your mistake and not yours. If theirs, and a mistake they are addressing that’s a different issue, but still their help and a balanced opinion about their product in being specific about the problems with the product is certainly more useful.

Hope it’s helpful. As yet, I don’t see a problem with the Zero 88, what’s the specific problem that did not work for you? Good board except for your problems with it it so far as I can tell. No your renter is nothing like my question in writing off your opinion by saying you are crazy, but your opinion is still also not equally as proper in response or formed opinion. Renter sales rep was an idiot, but that’s beside the point so far.


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## dj_illusions (Apr 26, 2004)

I agree with you Mayhem.... I have heard a few cases of this business dealing with its customers like that, but a business with no custom isnt a business.

Im happy where I am now and they always take care of me, thats all that matters!

I hire gear out to people as well, just not on a large scale. Instead of forcing people to hire the gear that I think is appropriate (which is what occured), i generally figure out their options and tell them what they have to choose from, if they have no idea about this sort of stuff then I try to explain it a bit and give my opinion. If they are having trouble i do go down and give them a hand with it.

The company that i hire from wanted to charge 130 bucks for a service call to come down and show me how to use the desk, which was not on as far as i was concerned!


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## Radman (May 1, 2004)

Ship, where on earth do you find the time to type all that?


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## ship (May 1, 2004)

A few years back I took it upon myself to understand lamps. It was my job as a buyer of them to understand what I bought and such things are complex.

I took typing in high school and got out of the class at 26 words per minute, but in understanding lamps, and not getting yelled at or possibly loosing that part of my job because I did not have a clue about them in stupid little detal about them, it quickly became necessary to format some kind of spreadsheet to them and study with taking notes so I would have something to do at work that only I would be handeling. 

Five years later and with those notes and spreadsheets, I tend to type blindingly fast. In high school about 20 years ago, I did learn finger technique - though I have lazy wrists that touch the table. As for the rest, I kind of just learned how to type fast to the point that I type about as fast as I think. Find the time... I shouldn't find that much time, but since I grew up without a lot of help in getting me where I am, as with Dave the webmaster, my intent is to better my peers and those following me in understanding what I will have no hope thereof.


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## Foxinabox10 (May 1, 2004)

I'm suprised that the Altman Shakespeare's are not mentioned much. My high school has about 20 of them and we rent more every show. We are getting ready to buy 40 more. I can't think of anything wrong with them. 

For a console, we used a Lehigh Legacy up until last year, when a parent who helps out finished his light control program for Windows. All you need is a DMX -> USB adapter, a computer (we're using a Pentium I for now), and this software. This software is absolutely amazing. Unlimited cues, manual and auto advance, and 48 channels are among the features. He is still working on the user's manual and is going to increase it to 64 channels soon. I can ask him about selling it if you're interested.


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## Radman (May 18, 2004)

I don't like the shakespeares.


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## Radman (May 18, 2004)

Now back on topic. It would be pretty hard to give you a tutorial without knowing what size of a theater you are looking at.


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## JasonC77 (May 20, 2004)

Have to agree... be careful before buying more shakespeares. Make sure you give other lights a fair look first. IMHO, Shakespeares just dont hold a candle to other modern ERS lights such as the Source 4's or even the Strand SL's. You get very little intensity "bang-for-your-buck" compared to the SL's or S4's. Also, color is a bit more greenish in the shakespeares than the clean white of the S4's (lamped at 750w) and the slightly less than clean white of S4's at 575w, and the sl's.

I highly suggest that before you go out and blow thousands of dollars on 40 new lights, that you line up all three of these side by side and give them all a real shakedown. Any vendor worth their salt would be happy to let you do this. You may be suprised at what you see.


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## AndrewWebberley (Oct 23, 2008)

I have programmed both ETC and Strand systems in theatrical settings. I usually prefer the ETC systems. ETC has recently releases a new line of consoles that is replacing the Express/Expressions lines. The Ion console is a great small console that works great in a theatrical setting. Learning the Ion also give you the basics of it's big brother the Eos console. This is one of the hottest consoles on the market right now. I am using it and love it so much more then my last console. If you are on a tight budget you may still be able to get an Express or Expression console for your theatre as some distributers may still have them in stock. 
If you do get and Express/Expression please have a look at my web page. I have some new Training videos coming out for them.


Andrew Webberley
p.s. I don't work for ETC I just love their products.


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## icewolf08 (Oct 23, 2008)

Just FYI, this is a very old thread. Last post was in 2004. We have had many recent discussions about the new generation consoles, including Eos, Ion, and the new Strand lines.


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## pyroaxel (May 3, 2009)

Hello. I will strongly recomend that you download GrandMA1 PC and GrandMA 3D. Then you have a state of the art controller AND a free 3D visuliser for your training. Of course you also have to download and READ the manual. Patience and lots of strong coffee will help you out! For the 3D you need a PC with some brain and power.


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