# Joining the Union, IATSE



## rochem

Well, after about a year and a half of working as an overhire with the local, I have been invited to join IATSE. I'm pretty excited about this, but before I jump in headfirst, I wanted to get some outside opinions of the union. I know all locals are different and many people have varying opinions on IATSE, but that's why I wanted to post my questions here. 

I'm currently a high school senior, and I will be going off to college next year for Theatre Design/Technology, with a concentration in Lighting Design. From the looks of it, my college for next year will be under a different local's jurisdiction, so I wouldn't be able to commute regularly back and forth for calls. However, I'm hoping that having a card might help to get on some overhire lists in wherever city I end up next year. Also, I'm hoping that when I apply for summer stock and internships and such, having the union card would at least imply a base set of skills which could help me to get the position. My concerns are, however, that having a union card would actually hurt my chances at getting jobs and positions wherever I end up next year. For the record, I've already addressed these and other questions to the BA at my local, I just wanted to get another set of opinions. 

So what would you recommend? Would joining the union help me out at this stage, or would it have the potential to hurt me as I go into college? Or would it really not affect me at all? I'm proud of the work I've put in and the experience I've gained through working long hours with the union, and I feel like having a card would help me out in the long term, however others may have different opinions about the IA. Your thoughts?


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## STEVETERRY

rochem said:


> Well, after about a year and a half of working as an overhire with the local, I have been invited to join IATSE. I'm pretty excited about this, but before I jump in headfirst, I wanted to get some outside opinions of the union. I know all locals are different and many people have varying opinions on IATSE, but that's why I wanted to post my questions here.
> 
> I'm currently a high school senior, and I will be going off to college next year for Theatre Design/Technology, with a concentration in Lighting Design. From the looks of it, my college for next year will be under a different local's jurisdiction, so I wouldn't be able to commute regularly back and forth for calls. However, I'm hoping that having a card might help to get on some overhire lists in wherever city I end up next year. Also, I'm hoping that when I apply for summer stock and internships and such, having the union card would at least imply a base set of skills which could help me to get the position. My concerns are, however, that having a union card would actually hurt my chances at getting jobs and positions wherever I end up next year. For the record, I've already addressed these and other questions to the BA at my local, I just wanted to get another set of opinions.
> 
> So what would you recommend? Would joining the union help me out at this stage, or would it have the potential to hurt me as I go into college? Or would it really not affect me at all? I'm proud of the work I've put in and the experience I've gained through working long hours with the union, and I feel like having a card would help me out in the long term, however others may have different opinions about the IA. Your thoughts?



This is a key to a door---walk through it. Having a card is a huge advantage. You will never regret it.

ST


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## xander

I was in a similar situation. I was asked to apprentice in my local, but I was in a very transitional period of my life. I didn't know if I was going to be around for any significant period of time. I was traveling all over the country, job to job, and I knew that I wanted to move to NY in the long run and therefore couldn't commit to my local. So, out of respect for the local, I didn't join just to get my card, and then run off to another local. It depends on how loyal your local is expecting you to be. Some locals can get offended because they put in time and effort to train new people.

I hugely regret not sticking around to get my card. I have successfully moved to NYC and make a living working Off-Broadway mostly, but man do I wish I had my card. It would make it infinitely easier to get work in Broadway houses and IA tours. Now I have to start my decade or so long trek to join Local 1.


-Tim


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## Esoteric

Depends on the cities involved. I love IATSE and was going to get my card to get into a riggers apprentice program, BUT.... The city where I went to college had only 2 IA houses (one theater and one convention center). With all the people on the rolls there was very little work to go around. We were free however to work in non-union houses. I also looked at transferring my card (once I got it) and the chances of transferring a card from that local to any other local were next to nothing. In addition it was not a very well run local at the time and there were many problems.

Again, I love the IA and it may be different in your town, but go into the whole thing with your eyes open. Sometimes it is worth it and sometimes it is not.

Mike


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## Footer

Have you been offered your card or been offered to take their test? 

I would advise against doing it now. You can run into some issues with many summer stock theatres with the IA membership. You can also run into issues doing community theatre locally. It all depends on how your local would deal with that. What kind of local is your IA? Are there many members who only support themselves with work in the union or does the local work 10 or so shows a month at the local arena/civic theatre? 
If its the former, I would probably reconsider, if its the latter, you might want to go for it. However, some doors could be closed for you later on.

There is a stigma that goes along with IA, both good and bad. It all depends on your local and how you market yourself. I have seen resume's trashed at a summer stock theatre and at a university because of an IA connection. I have also seen people hired because of IA connections. Starting in a smaller hall has its benefits, but you are going to have to leapfrog your way up to larger halls to get anywhere. 

One quick question, what benefits are you going to get out of joining?


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## SteveB

rochem said:


> Well, after about a year and a half of working as an overhire with the local, I have been invited to join IATSE. I'm pretty excited about this, but before I jump in headfirst, ?



STOP RIGHT THERE !. 

No further reading or discussion required. 

People KILL to become IATSE members. If it's offered, take it. No questions asked. Pay the initiation fee, pay the dues. Keep paying the dues even if you become a Peace Corp worker in Somalia and never return. 

You WILL some day be eternally grateful you had this opportunity.


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## rochem

Thanks for the responses, both positive and negative. 

Footer - definitely the latter. There's some months we don't even come close to 10 shows. We have two contract venues, a theatre and a small arena. The theatre gets one or two shows every month, while most of the arena work is doing changeovers to and from hockey to basketball to concert venue. There's no one in the local who makes their entire living from union calls - it's a second job for pretty much everyone. 

Xander/Esoteric - Like I said, this is a very small local, and they don't have a lot of work to spread around. So to compensate, they have very few restrictions on where you can work as a union member. They're fully aware that I will be leaving for college in 6 months and will only be able to work while home on break or something. They actually have a specific clause which applies to college students which says that I can work any show affiliated with the college without having to jump through any union hoops. This includes shows that just happen to hire student technicians wherever I end up going to college. They want to encourage younger technicians to learn about the industry and use that knowledge to help the local, so they're very supportive of the college environment in particular.

STEVETERRY/SteveB - These were my thoughts exactly. I won't be around long enough to take full advantage of the increase in pay, and I'm not expecting my card from a tiny local out in nowheresville to automatically get me gigs in Boston or New York. But if having a card can get me even one interview/meeting/case-pushing job in a larger theatre market such as New York or Boston, then I'd say it's worth it.

Thanks for all the responses guys! My thoughts right now are to go for it, but I want to be completely sure that I'm not screwing myself over for college and beyond. Footer, would you mind elaborating on the potential negatives? Are these legal issues, like that I would legally not be allowed to work at a specific venue/theatre/company because of having a card? Or are they more personality issues, like a manager somewhere having a personal vendetta against the IA?


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## derekleffew

Some valuable information may be found in these threads: IATSE in your area?, IATSE???.


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## irish79

Michael,

I see that you are from Corning and I am a current member of that local. I was the locals head carpenter for Wizard of Oz and I believe you were on my crew. As you know much of our local is getting old and it is always good to see younger people interested in joining.
We have had some people join and go away to college, i know one of them is currently in Vegas working and another is now a member of local one. We also have several others out on the road right now. Having a card from our local was a huge foot in the door for both of them. You seem to have a good head on your shoulders and a passion for the business; I feel that joining could do the same for you.
Just remember that even if you are not around and working you still have to pay your dues, which are rather low compared to other locals. Where are you planning to go to school? Have you found out if they have a Union there? and if so have you contacted them to see if you would be able to work for them while you are away? 
Weather you decide to join or not i look forward to working with you again in the future.

Scott


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## Footer

I am not an IA member. I have considered it many times but my current career path does not involve IA. I have worked overhire for a few different IA halls accross the country and have enjoyed my time there. 

As far as the throwing out of resume's....

Its not really a vendetta, its more of a stigma. There are many people in the world of education who have spent 6-8 years in college to get where they are. Same thing goes for many people in the management of many theatres. Many education (MFA) types see IA as box pushing neck downs. By putting that on your resume' you run the risk of getting lumped in with that crowd if the reader is one of those that believes that statement. Yes, many IA halls are filled with box pushers who will say that proud. There are others out there that are filled with great technicians who know the art of stagecraft inside and out.

I do suggest you join your hall. It sounds like a good hall and could do you well in the future. However, be aware when you put that on your resume, especially if your local number is in the 100's, you could bring that stigma along with it. You also run into many theatres that don't know if they can hire an IA person or not. Most people in summerstock theatres are used to dealing with AEA and think the same rules apply, IE you can't work here if you are a member of the union without a union contract and union rules.

I will relate this to a friend of mine in college. He was an Eagle Scout but refused to put it on his resume'. The reason he gave was that there are many people in the theatre community who are gay and the boy scouts have the stigma they are anti-gay. He was proud that he had achieved eagle scout but would not put it on his resume' because he was concerned of the chance of being thrown out because of that association. 

The nice thing about IA unlike equity is it is something you could leave on the side later on. If you need it, it can be there, if you don't, you are not forced to bring it up. That all depends on your hall however.


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## PeytonJr

I'm a bit unclear about this - is the only way to join IATSE by being invited?
I have looked around before, and couldn't find anything about it. 
The theatre I worked at over the summer was unionized, and I talked to the house crew about working and things, but they didn't mention how they got started. I should have asked


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## jstroming

An IA card out of highschool?!?!?

****! I guess Ive been in NYC too long haha.


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## Footer

PeytonJr said:


> I'm a bit unclear about this - is the only way to join IATSE by being invited?
> I have looked around before, and couldn't find anything about it.
> The theatre I worked at over the summer was unionized, and I talked to the house crew about working and things, but they didn't mention how they got started. I should have asked


There are two ways in, though it depends on the union. The regular way is to start working overhire with the union. After so many calls or a set number of hours you can say that you are interested in joining. Depending on the union, they can take you in as an apprentice, give you a test to get your card, or just give you your card. Most unions require a vote of the membership on each new member and require a given number of votes to get a person in. This is where it gets hard to get into a union. If they don't like you or your not connected properly, your not getting in. 

Many unions require you to take a test to get your full card. In the case of local one just getting to the point where you can take your test takes 5-10 years and even then you have to know the right people. 

There is one other way in. You can get a job as the head of a dept. of a union house or get a job on a union tour and the company that is hiring you will basically force you into the union. This is the way general industry works.


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## FatherMurphy

I've been a member of the IA for some fifteen years now, and have served as both Local Secretary and as Delegate to Convention, so I have a bit of perspective on the question.

Most of the con to joining a union is the stereotype of union members (in any industry) being overpaid and lazy people who stand around arguing who's work a particular job is, and confusion over what sort of contract (or lack thereof) is needed to employ a union member. The stereotype, like all stereotypes, may have some roots in reality, but it is not an accurate depiction of the majority of IA members - most members are focused on doing the best job possible for the client, and few would consider themselves overpaid, especially given the feast-or-famine nature of the business and the variable times and conditions they're asked to work in. The contract confusion is a matter for education, and may require referring to the law in your state, since there are differences across the country.

The pros include having greater access to work within your local's jurisdiction, training and education, and the possession of a card in your pocket that proves you take your profession seriously enough to join and maintain membership in the largest association of entertainment technicians in the country. It may or may not increase your pay for present employment (it depends on the current contract), but over time and overall the union jobs will pay more than the non-union work. 

Joining the IA, from the perspective of the International, is fairly straight-forward. The International is focused on the fact that the more workers have cards, the more likely the union is to succeed in negotiating a contract, thus they generally assume that anyone who is doing the work should have a card. If you had a history of crossing picket lines as a scab worker, they might deny the application, but usually the big thing they worry about is if you still owe money from a previous period of membership or an incomplete attempt to join.

The Local Union is usually more of a hurdle for gaining membership. It is to the Local that you need to apply to for membership, and follow whatever their local procedure is. Some Locals see themselves as a 'labor union' and will welcome anyone working in the business with open arms, some see themselves as a 'craftsmen guild' and will want you to prove yourself via an apprenticeship and skills tests, and, unfortunately, a few see themselves as a closed club, and will resist attempts of outsiders to dilute the amount of union work that is available. In all three cases, the starting point is the same - asking the Local Secretary for an application form (you can find contact information here). There is a $100 filing fee that the International requires with all applications, plus whatever the Local requires as an initiation fee (these can be waived under certain circumstances), so make sure you ask what your particular Local will ask of you for fees, as well as the procedure.

Being asked to join a Local does not mean that membership is by invitation only - the IA is there to represent all workers in the trade. It does mean that the current members have noticed your work and dedication, and would like you to consider joining them. It is a good sign that your application will be accepted and approved by the membership. If you're interested in joining, but haven't been directly asked, ask a member who the Secretary is, or follow the link above to find them. Once the application is approved by the International, you then need to do whatever the Local requires for testing and training, and eventually you will be voted on by the membership. Assuming the vote is positive, you are then a member for as long as you pay your dues.

As for transferring from one Local to another, the process isn't a lot different than the process for joining as a new member - you still need to contact the Secretary, pass whatever test the Local gives you, and be voted on by the membership of the destination Local. You must maintain your good standing in your original Local until the transfer is complete, and how simple or complicated the process is depends on the Locals in question. 

Being a union member does not automatically exclude you from doing non-union work. By joining, you voluntarily agree to obey the Union if they tell you to turn down a certain job, but usually the Local will only do that if the employer in question is one that the Local is trying to put pressure on by denying them skilled workers, or if the pay scale is so low that it's seen as undercutting existing contracts, or if the work environment is known to be unsafe. Otherwise, union members doing the work is usually seen as a better situation than non-members doing the work, although working under a contract is the preferred situation. The size of the Local has a lot to do with the degree of flexibility they allow, with the larger Locals being more particular about working under contract. Another thought is that the more union members there are working for an employer, the easier it will be to organize that employer in the future.

Educational and community theater are a special area for the application of union rules. Most Locals have clauses in the By-Laws stating that no member should teach the craft to a non-member or work for less than scale (ie: free), but this is usually overlooked for schools and volunteer groups. Technical theater students are the sort of people the IA would like to have join, and community theater volunteers generally don't compete for the paid work. As long as your work in school or for local groups doesn't displace paid workers, most Locals won't worry about it. I know several IA members who teach theater, and I was a community theater Asst. TD when I joined. It's not a problem.

I don't think there are any laws requiring you to declare yourself as a union member when applying for jobs (might vary from state to state, though), so you could leave that piece of information off your resume if you think that it would hurt your chances for a particular job. However, I wouldn't give a false answer to a direct question during an interview.

Having a card is always more of a foot in the door than not having a card. You will find more paths open to you with the card than without, even if it doesn't mean a slam-dunk entry into a big city job. The only caution I'd give the OP against taking the card now is his ability to keep current on dues while he's at school - if you get dropped from membership for not paying, you have to pay the missing sum plus back dues through to the present day as a lump sum to get back in, plus be voted on again (may be a two-year cap on the back dues required, they did some changing a few years ago). If you think you'll get enough work to at least cover the dues, it's definitely worth getting the card now.

There are a lot more ins and outs and what ifs, but this post is long enough now - feel free to ask me if you have questions or need further details.


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## FatherMurphy

A follow-up question was asked by PM, that perhaps bears reposting my answer here. The question was how one might honorably leave the IA for a period, and what might happen years later when they try to rejoin:

Any member who is up to date on dues and fees can request a Withdrawal Card, thus honorably ending their membership at close of the current quarter. The other route is to simply stop paying dues, and be expelled six months later, but you'd then have that debt sitting there waiting until you rejoined.

As for back dues for returning members, they've been tinkering with the language in recent years, and I'm not sure how things stand at the moment. It used to be that you could rejoin as a new member (losing your former seniority date), but too many people were joining and leaving too frequently, joining when business was good, and dropping out as soon as things got slow. So they stopped that practice, and made returning members liable for all back dues. This put female members who'd dropped out for a few years to raise kids at a disadvantage, so they put a two-year cap on the back dues, and at that point I lost track. Each step of the way was a different Convention, currently spaced four years apart. I haven't been a Secretary or a Delegate for the last couple conventions, so I don't have a current International Constitution and Bylaws, but your Local Secretary should have a copy, and can tell you what the current rules are - which isn't to say that they couldn't change again between now and your future return.

Loss of seniority date doesn't mean much, it's actually against federal law to fill calls based on union seniority. There aren't any black marks placed against your name if you are in for a while, leave for a while, and then come back, you'd hardly be the first to do so.


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## Footer

FatherMurphy said:


> Loss of seniority date doesn't mean much, it's actually against federal law to fill calls based on union seniority.


....But that happens all the time....

Nearly every BA of any IA I have worked with is there because they have the most seniority. Seniority is how you get placed as an up-rigger in many halls (and draw the most pay). Its also how you get placed on actual show calls instead of just the in/out. It might be against the law, but it happens all the time and is impossible to prove in the courts if it does happen.


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## FatherMurphy

footer said:


> It might be against the law, but it happens all the time and is impossible to prove in the courts if it does happen.



You're correct that it does happen, and that it is hard to prove, but it is still illegal. One of the reasons it is hard to prove is that union seniority rankings will usually closely match industry seniority and date-of-first-employment rankings, both of which are standards that _*are*_ legal to use (If you really want to open up a can of worms, calling members before non-members (based solely on cardholding status) is illegal as well). Let's just say that the value of a particular union seniority date is yet another thing that varies from Local to Local, and leave it at that.


> Nearly every BA of any IA I have worked with is there because they have the most seniority.



Business Agent should be an elected office in every Local, and the BA is the person who is point of contact for employers to place calls and negotiate contracts. Under the BA are Call Stewards, who fill the requested quantities of workers with the individual members, and on each job site there is a Job Steward, who is tasked with keeping track of hours and enforcing the contract's terms. In many smaller Locals, one person fills all three positions, or two people will hold some combination of posts. It would seem natural that the more experienced members would end up in these positions, but they aren't necessarily seniority-based. Under current law, Job Stewards are granted super-seniority for their job site, meaning that they are first-in, last-out each day, regardless of skill set, overall hours, etc., because to fulfill their duties and monitor the contract, they have to be present while any worker is working. Again, the more experienced members will be the most likely choices for this position.

I'll certainly never argue that rules and laws don't get ignored or abused, or suggest that it would be easy to get a large Local to change its ways. There's plenty of horror stories out there, but there's also a lot of good Locals, and a lot of Locals willing to get better given the right leadership. Where you are is going to determine what situation you find.


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## bishopthomas

I am also on the fence about joining my local, but am in a right to work state so I'm not sure how strong the union is here and if it would actually help me or not. Anyone care to comment about the validity of IATSE in right to work states? Being from NJ I have always been under the impression that being in the union would likely be a good thing for my career, but now that I'm in TN I'm not so sure.


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## Footer

bishopthomas said:


> I am also on the fence about joining my local, but am in a right to work state so I'm not sure how strong the union is here and if it would actually help me or not. Anyone care to comment about the validity of IATSE in right to work states? Being from NJ I have always been under the impression that being in the union would likely be a good thing for my career, but now that I'm in TN I'm not so sure.



Nashville is one of the areas that there are many people who work for production houses that are not union. It is also a Crew1 market. I know in Atlanta the IA did have a contract with the big road house in town. The other large road house in town which was about a 1/4 mile from my apt. did not have a contract with anyone. Whatever the presenter wanted crew wise, they brought in. It could be crew1 one week, IA the next, Billy Bobs Lighting company the third. Very few places in the right to work states have contracts simply because they don't have to. The IA down there along with the rest of the unions have very little actual power in their venues. I would go IA way before going crew1, but the IA is losing work to crew1 left and right (at least they did in Atlanta). Tennessee and Nashville specifically has done very well for itself being right to work. With the amount of money Nissan has brought in people are not for hiring unions just because its the right thing to do.

I would put your name in with the local. There are plenty of people in Nashvegas who work overhire when they are in town and not on the road. It would be a good way to get to know some people and possibly get into one of the many shops. However, you don't have to get a card in order to get work. The IA down there is just one more labor company that is competing for work.


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## bishopthomas

Thanks for the advice. I have my IATSE application filled out and ready to be turned in, just been on the fence about it. I will visit on Monday and at least see about getting on the overhire list. I'm not sure who I talked to when I was there before, but they didn't seem too anxious to even entertain the notion of adding someone else to the roster.

I had never heard of Crew 1 until now, so thanks for the tip. It may not be your first pick, but I'll take work wherever I can get it right now. Plus, the online application seems to be very convenient (although I haven't had much luck with applying for jobs online; maybe there's an office with a real hand to shake?).


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## Footer

bishopthomas said:


> Thanks for the advice. I have my IATSE application filled out and ready to be turned in, just been on the fence about it. I will visit on Monday and at least see about getting on the overhire list. I'm not sure who I talked to when I was there before, but they didn't seem too anxious to even entertain the notion of adding someone else to the roster.
> 
> I had never heard of Crew 1 until now, so thanks for the tip. It may not be your first pick, but I'll take work wherever I can get it right now. Plus, the online application seems to be very convenient (although I haven't had much luck with applying for jobs online; maybe there's an office with a real hand to shake?).



If you want to work for Crew 1, more power to ya. We all gotta eat and I know that more then any body. Take a gander at this thread... http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/general-advice/17819-iatse.html

At least know what you are walking into before you sign up.


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## bishopthomas

So, what I got out of that thread is that they hire people as independent contractors. I'm not a huge fan of that, but I've been doing that as a freelance engineer for the past 4 years now. I do have my own business, get 1099's from various people every year, pay self employment taxes, have no insurance, blah blah blah... I don't necessarily agree with companies hiring individuals as 1099 freelancers (and it's not exactly legal; a previous employer is going through an investigation with the labor department right now for doing this very thing), it's how many people decide to work. Ideally I'd get hired as a full time employee from one of the majors around here (or get on a tour) but that's not happening right now.

If you have any other issues with Crew 1 I'd love to hear it. If I need to stay away then I certainly will; but getting a 1099 at the end of the year isn't a reason for me to sit at home instead of getting paying gigs...


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## cdub260

In my part of Southern California, there's very little point in joining the local IATSI 504 as they have contracts with only a handful of venues in Orange County. That said, I have on occasion, worked with some of their crews when an organization they contracted with used my venue. For the most part, I found their crews to be highly professional, organized and motivated. The were a bit too rigid as to when break time was for my taste but I understand why they have to be that rigid. I've even been offered the opportunity to freelance with the union on a couple of occasions but for various reasons, was unable to take them up on the offers. For me personally, Joining IATSI would be of little or no benefit.

Now if you head north about 50 miles, up to Los Angeles, joining IATSI would be a much more viable and attractive career path as they have a much stronger presence there. Since I don't particularly like L.A., have no desire to live or work there, and have my dream job in a non-union house in Orange County, I will remain a non-union tech for the foreseeable future.


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## Footer

bishopthomas said:


> So, what I got out of that thread is that they hire people as independent contractors. I'm not a huge fan of that, but I've been doing that as a freelance engineer for the past 4 years now. I do have my own business, get 1099's from various people every year, pay self employment taxes, have no insurance, blah blah blah... I don't necessarily agree with companies hiring individuals as 1099 freelancers (and it's not exactly legal; a previous employer is going through an investigation with the labor department right now for doing this very thing), it's how many people decide to work. Ideally I'd get hired as a full time employee from one of the majors around here (or get on a tour) but that's not happening right now.
> 
> If you have any other issues with Crew 1 I'd love to hear it. If I need to stay away then I certainly will; but getting a 1099 at the end of the year isn't a reason for me to sit at home instead of getting paying gigs...



If your in need of work and they have work, go for it. If you have done the 1099 thing before and know how that works and what the means in terms of workmans comp, go for it.


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## masterelectrician2112

How old do you usually have to be to work overhire for IATSE?


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## rochem

masterelectrician2112 said:


> How old do you usually have to be to work overhire for IATSE?



You have to be 18 to be paid as far as I know. However, I started volunteering for no pay at age 16, and I worked almost every call for about two years before turning 18 and officially getting on the overhire list. I think that's a big part of why I'm being invited to join at such a young age - because they know that I love working and that I'm in it for more than just the money. Even now, if there's a small call that I don't get paid for, I still always ask the steward if I can come in and work anyways for no pay.


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## masterelectrician2112

So how does one go about getting on the call list? I am turning 16 in May so I would like to start the long process of joining.


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## Footer

Give your local a call, -||- IATSE International -||

Call the BA of the local and tell them you would like to be on their overhire list. Its hard to get on a list that way, usually you have to know someone, but its worth a try.


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## rochem

Footer said:


> Give your local a call, -||- IATSE International -||
> 
> Call the BA of the local and tell them you would like to be on their overhire list. Its hard to get on a list that way, usually you have to know someone, but its worth a try.



I actually did it a little differently than the norm. As I said, I worked for no pay or compensation for about two years before "officially" getting on the overhire list - if this isn't an option for you, then my approach won't work. When I first broke in, I set up a job shadowing experience through my school's Career Development Counselor at my local roadhouse during a load-in for a large touring broadway. I told them I was interested in lighting, so when I got there I met the BA and he just sent me to be another electrician, just like any other member of the crew. Throughout that whole day, everyone thought that I was a regular overhire stagehand except for a few people that the BA told. At the end of the load-in, I asked if I could come back for tech and for some of the shows to observe in the spot booth, and they said yes (this was the first outing of a major national tour, so they spent two weeks teching the show in our theatre). When they were getting ready to leave, I asked if I could return for the out, and they again said yes. Then as I was leaving from the out, I gave my contact info to the Steward and asked him to call me whenever I could come work - not taking the place of a paid stagehand, and not being paid, but just being able to come work and enjoy what I'm doing. I was invited to pretty much every Union call for the next two years and started to get a reputation of being reliable and on time and hard working, having never missed or been late to a call I had accepted. Then when I turned 18, I had already become a competent theatrical electrician, and had already attained a higher spot on the seniority list, so I started getting calls for many shows as a real, paid stagehand. I turned 18 last November, and they officially extended the invitation to me about two weeks ago. 

The venue was about 30 minutes from my house, and for about two years I had to find a way to pay for my own gas and parking fees without getting anything back from the Union. The vast majority of calls took place during a weekday, so I would just tell my teachers well in advance that I would not be in classes that day. I know it's not an option that can work for everyone, but it worked out great for me, and I'd encourage you to try something like that too if you can pull it off. Feel free to PM me if you have any more specific questions.


----------



## FatherMurphy

I find it very strange that a Local would be using a volunteer to fill calls, underage to boot. If you were there on behalf of the house (a volunteer for the building's management), and working alongside the union workers, that would be one thing (my local routinely splits calls with students at state university performance centers), but if you were being called in by the Local to be a volunteer, that is the exact opposite of the main goals of unionism, 'equal pay for equal work', and 'appropriate wages for services rendered'. If you were working the call as one of the Union's head count, you _*were*_ taking the place of a paid stagehand, even if that person would have been yourself, if you hadn't been a volunteer.

Most places, you have to be 18 before any kind of insurance coverage will begin, thus the 18 year age minimum for most jobs (not to mention child labor laws). When you were working while underage, if you had been hurt on the job, there would have been a big problem with medical insurance coverage. Working as a volunteer, the problems are even worse than those mentioned above in the 1099 worker discussion. Full-time workers receiving W-2 tax forms are automatically covered by Workman's Comp insurance in most states, Form 1099 self-employed contractors generally are not, and for a volunteer to be covered depends on the venue's insurance. Stop for a moment and think about taking a single wrong step, falling headfirst into the pit, and being confined to a wheelchair for the rest of your life with no insurance. Schools and community theaters carry insurance to cover volunteers for such things, professional houses frequently do not.

I'd like to know what possessed your BA to make use of you in this fashion - an underage person job shadowing a show or two is one thing, being called as a volunteer for every show for two years is another.


----------



## photoatdv

That does seem a bit strange... especially in our insurance and sue happy society.


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## mstaylor

Sounds like there may be a shortage of younger guys in the local and they may have been trying get some new blood.


----------



## shiben

mstaylor said:


> Sounds like there may be a shortage of younger guys in the local and they may have been trying get some new blood.



Sounds like that to me too. Probably trying to get someone decently capable so that they would have guys who could do more than roll cases on the payroll.


----------



## irish79

As I have taken an oath not to speak of the buisness of the union to anyone who is not a member in good standing I will be breif here. He was not called for every show, there are alot more shows than the few musicals that i'm guessing he helped with . The house that he is speaking of was closed for almost a year for renovations and has only been open reopen for just over a year. This was during the 2 years he is speaking of. He did not replace any paid stages hands on any call, we would not let that happen. He showed an interest in working in theatre and we provided him an opurtunity to shadow several shows. He enjoys it and does a great job so we are now offering him that chance to join.


----------



## rochem

Sorry I couldn't reply to this thread sooner, I'm currently in the middle of a particularly grueling tech so I have very little free time. As Irish said, I did not ever replace any paid stagehands. The main point is that I was NOT in fact being "called" by the Union. If a show came through our theatre and requested 25 stagehands for the load-in, the BA would always fill those slots with elegible union members and overhires. I was NEVER called for a show until after I turned 18. However, after the personnel call was completely filled, the BA would generally give me a courtesy call, just to let me know that there would be a load-in going on at a certain time and place. I was never asked to come, only invited to come if I wanted. I was told dozens of times that I was welcome to come and go as I please, and I was free to decide 5 minutes before the call started that I didn't want to show up. My presence and labor was never expected or needed, but when I was there I simply served as one extra stagehand. 

How I rationalized it is that the road crew is used to having, for example, 10 electricians at every load-in. They're obviously capable of doing the load-in with 10 guys, and they would not pay for an 11th electrician to make things work faster. However, I have never met a Head Electrician who was annoyed at having one extra guy on her crew. But the key point is that I was free to show up if and when I chose, and my presence was not in any way required or mandated. Outside the large touring broadway market, the lines become a little bit blurred, because I am currently taking part in an unpaid Internship at my local roadhouse where most of the calls I work take place. On the shows where I am not called due to my lower seniority status, I am often still asked to come in by the house through my internship, where I essentially end up doing much of the same work.


irish79 said:


> He was not called for every show, there are alot more shows than the few musicals that i'm guessing he helped with.



My apologies, my post from before should have read "almost every call at the theatre venue". I have done very little work outside of the roadhouse, but at least so far this season, I have worked almost every show at the theatre space in some way, whether through the Union or through my internship.


----------



## Footer

rochem said:


> How I rationalized it is that the road crew is used to having, for example, 10 electricians at every load-in. They're obviously capable of doing the load-in with 10 guys, and they would not pay for an 11th electrician to make things work faster. However, I have never met a Head Electrician who was annoyed at having one extra guy on her crew. But the key point is that I was free to show up if and when I chose, and my presence was not in any way required or mandated. Outside the large touring broadway market, the lines become a little bit blurred, because I am currently taking part in an unpaid Internship at my local roadhouse where most of the calls I work take place. On the shows where I am not called due to my lower seniority status, I am often still asked to come in by the house through my internship, where I essentially end up doing much of the same work.



At the same time one could argue that you were taking away work from another person simply because the work was getting done faster. If you were not there it might have been possible that you would go past the minimum 4. Not saying that it happened, not saying it didn't, just play devils advocate. I could easily see people getting upset with this type of setup for this exact reason.


----------



## Pie4Weebl

Footer said:


> At the same time one could argue that you were taking away work from another person simply because the work was getting done faster. If you were not there it might have been possible that you would go past the minimum 4. Not saying that it happened, not saying it didn't, just play devils advocate. I could easily see people getting upset with this type of setup for this exact reason.



I would argue against your point, its not like he was working on one offs, for touring shows they give specific numbers to get done what gets done, and that is all they need. Everybody makes the same amount of money if the 4 hour load out gets done in 2:15 as opposed to 2:30...


----------



## rochem

Footer said:


> At the same time one could argue that you were taking away work from another person simply because the work was getting done faster. If you were not there it might have been possible that you would go past the minimum 4. Not saying that it happened, not saying it didn't, just play devils advocate. I could easily see people getting upset with this type of setup for this exact reason.



That's a fair point. But in my opinion, I really don't think my presense would have actually sped up a call by any significant amount, if at all. For one, this isn't a common thing - as far as I'm aware, there's no one else who worked for no pay like I did. So it's not like every department had 1-2 extra unpaid stagehands. And second, at least on most of the major tours I've worked, most tasks assigned to the local crew are fairly short and simple - "pull that meatrack downstage" or "make these connections" or similar. Obviously there are exceptions (hanging/focusing FOH, changing out gobos in a moving light, etc.), but for the most part this seems to be true. I have never worked a tour where every member of a department was assigned a specific task which took more than a minute or so to complete all at the same time. Usually, the Head Elec would say something like "run this cable to the end of the truss" and the three or four guys closest to the cable box would grab it and go, leaving the others standing around waiting for the next task. If my presense sped up a call at all, it was only because I happened to be standing a foot or two closer to where a task needed to be completed.


----------



## Footer

Pie4Weebl said:


> I would argue against your point, its not like he was working on one offs, for touring shows they give specific numbers to get done what gets done, and that is all they need. Everybody makes the same amount of money if the 4 hour load out gets done in 2:15 as opposed to 2:30...



Yep, but if him being there made the in/out take 3:55 min and not 4:05 he was taking away hours. Depending on the contract, that could be an extra 10 dollars to 50 dollars. 

I'm not saying he should not have done it, but just throwing that out there. 

A little history about this type of thing....

I have had a grievance filed against be when I was working in industry for replacing a light bulb in a wiring closet. The reason given was I was taking away work from another worker (I was working for a contractor). Had he been told to replace that light bulb he might have gotten pushed beyond 40 hours that week and gotten overtime. Because I changed the bulb I was taking away hours and therefore money from him. Instead, he got paid an extra 30 minutes for the week. This was in a steel mill, not in a theatre.


----------



## cdub260

Footer said:


> Yep, but if him being there made the in/out take 3:55 min and not 4:05 he was taking away hours. Depending on the contract, that could be an extra 10 dollars to 50 dollars.
> 
> I'm not saying he should not have done it, but just throwing that out there.
> 
> A little history about this type of thing....
> 
> I have had a grievance filed against be when I was working in industry for replacing a light bulb in a wiring closet. The reason given was I was taking away work from another worker (I was working for a contractor). Had he been told to replace that light bulb he might have gotten pushed beyond 40 hours that week and gotten overtime. Because I changed the bulb I was taking away hours and therefore money from him. Instead, he got paid an extra 30 minutes for the week. This was in a steel mill, not in a theatre.



Stories such as this are just one of many things that give unions a bad name. In a non-union work environment, you'd have likely been praised for taking the initiative by fixing a minor problem without someone having to tell you to. This, in conjunction with a history of similar initiative taking, would then, likely have lead to additional hours, a raise, future employment, or any number of similar, positive results. Instead, you found yourself in trouble with the union.

Granted, I don't truly know how prevalent the strict boundaries between jobs is in the various IATSI locals but when taken too far, the protectionist attitude in Footer's example can very easily destroy the initiative and pride of workmanship that can make an employee an asset to a company. Additionally it can lead to a highly inefficient work environment by requiring a number of workers that far exceeds what is actually needed for a given job. Over an extended period of time, this degree of inefficiency can drive an employer out of business.

I have seen this happen. Six years ago, the Pageant of the Masters built a new scene shop. The steel siding contractor had an all union crew. The general contractor, the site foreman, our staff, and the other sub-contractors were absolutely blown away at how long it took to install the siding. Each individual on their crew had his assigned task and performed that task in as mediocre and slow a fashion as possible. I don't recall the exact figures, but I remember discussing with the site foreman what the subcontractor was paid for the job vs. what that sub-contractor's all union crew was paid. The difference between the two figures was astounding. If I remember correctly, what the sub-contractor was paid for the job was only about two thirds of what it cost him to pay the slugs on his crew because they deliberately dragged the job out as long as they could, milking it for every hour they could get. The owner of the company would have loved to fire the lot of them but because the union backed the workers without any consideration for what they were doing to the company, they were stuck with a crew that would eventually force the company to close its doors because they could not earn a profit on any of their jobs. Additionally, the quality of their work was far below the standards of the other, non-union sub-contractors on the job. Six years later, we're still trying to find all the leaks and it's the only aspect of the new building that we've had any problems with.

Unions were established for some very good reasons and have done a lot of good over the last century or so, but sometimes union protectionism damages employers to the point where they destroy the very jobs they're trying to protect. In order to protect its workers, a union also needs to consider what is in the best interests of the employer so that the employer will still be there to provide jobs. When a union loses sight of this, it becomes its members' worst enemy.


----------



## SalvatoreDelorean

*Questions about IATSE*

So in about a year I'll have enough experience working at a small university theater to get myself onto the entry-level dispatch list for my local IATSE hall. At this point, I think union membership might be a good move, but I still can't quite wrap my head around how these institutions actually work. I've tried to get in touch with my local hall with little success, and I found a few other IA-related posts that didn't quite answer all of my questions, so I was hoping someone with experience might be able to give me a few answers (especially anyone who's worked with Local 15).

How do calls work? Do theaters and production companies really staff their events by calling a union hall and getting a few dozen random stagehands to work on a day-to-day basis? I understand how that works for plumbers and carpenters but I'm not sure how repertory or regional theaters could use that system for anything besides load-ins. What do union theaters do when they need people to work for entire runs of shows, like programmers or board ops or shop carpenters? How does union membership translate into long-term work? If I stick with the IATSE as a career, will I be running out to random calls on short notice and at weird times when I'm 40? How does hiring for tours work?

I'm also curious about the process of actually joining. For my Local, after three years of professional theater work and passing a basic theater skills test, you can qualify for the overhire ("F") list, but they're fairly cagey about actually becoming a member. Is it reasonable to assume that as a person with no connections in the union, after a year or so of good, hard work on the F list, I would be invited to get a card?

And finally, I'm just curious to hear from anyone who's been there what it's like. Is it worth it? What's working on the A list like? Are there any potential drawbacks down the road (especially if looking for non-union employment)? Do you gain a lot of valuable, on-the-job experience working on the lower levels of the union, or is it mostly manual labor until you rise through the ranks?

I know that's a lot of questions, but any information or insight anyone can give me would be extremely appreciated.
Thanks!
-Sal


----------



## mstaylor

*Re: Questions about IATSE*


SalvatoreDelorean said:


> So in about a year I'll have enough experience working at a small university theater to get myself onto the entry-level dispatch list for my local IATSE hall. At this point, I think union membership might be a good move, but I still can't quite wrap my head around how these institutions actually work. I've tried to get in touch with my local hall with little success, and I found a few other IA-related posts that didn't quite answer all of my questions, so I was hoping someone with experience might be able to give me a few answers (especially anyone who's worked with Local 15).
> 
> How do calls work? Do theaters and production companies really staff their events by calling a union hall and getting a few dozen random stagehands to work on a day-to-day basis? I understand how that works for plumbers and carpenters but I'm not sure how repertory or regional theaters could use that system for anything besides load-ins. What do union theaters do when they need people to work for entire runs of shows, like programmers or board ops or shop carpenters? How does union membership translate into long-term work? If I stick with the IATSE as a career, will I be running out to random calls on short notice and at weird times when I'm 40? How does hiring for tours work?
> 
> I'm also curious about the process of actually joining. For my Local, after three years of professional theater work and passing a basic theater skills test, you can qualify for the overhire ("F") list, but they're fairly cagey about actually becoming a member. Is it reasonable to assume that as a person with no connections in the union, after a year or so of good, hard work on the F list, I would be invited to get a card?
> 
> And finally, I'm just curious to hear from anyone who's been there what it's like. Is it worth it? What's working on the A list like? Are there any potential drawbacks down the road (especially if looking for non-union employment)? Do you gain a lot of valuable, on-the-job experience working on the lower levels of the union, or is it mostly manual labor until you rise through the ranks?
> 
> I know that's a lot of questions, but any information or insight anyone can give me would be extremely appreciated.
> Thanks!
> -Sal


Every local is a little different in how you get overhire calls, membership, etc. Depending on the area there may be local sound, light and scenic companies that hire employees permanently but will get extra help from the local. Many times by doing well in these cases get you a regular job. The same applies to house or tour gigs. 
To join or not to join has caused more than one heated discussion here. To me, it depends on your area. In my area, the closest local is two hours away and not enough work closer to bring the union in. I do D list with 22 when things are really busy. To be honest, it has become mostly inaugurals every four years but I have done other stuff too.


----------



## jerkyspace

*Re: Questions about IATSE*

I.A.T.S.E. can be good or bad for you, it all depends on where you are and who is running the Local. The Business Manager and Agents who book your calls and what type of Hiring Hall they are running make a great deal of difference. The past decade has seen an interesting and maybe disturbing trend from the Locals and The International: different TYPES of Hiring Halls. You can be working for an EXCLUSIVE Hiring Hall or a NON-EXCLUSIVE Hiring Hall these days and the International Office/President (NYC) repeatedly has told members of the labor organization that "It is the Long standing policy of the International not to create or otherwise get involved in the referral practices for local unions, each local union is an autonomous body and exercises complete control over its referral and seniority rules". 

Many people are unaware of this key change and how it affects their rights within their local "labor organization". MOST IMPORTANTLY this will determine whether your "hiring hall" will be subject to overview from the National Labor Relations Board, in the form of the protections found in the National Labor Relations Act, which include among many rights : Protection of a wide range activities that promote Organization and Collective Bargaining, a Duty of Fair Representation, Referral calls based on written objective hiring criteria, Protection from Unfair Labor Practices etc.

I.A.T.S.E. openly embraces the Labor Management Reporting & Disclosure Act on their website, 
IATSE International
this is what their Union Bill of Rights comes from. This is similar to the NLRA in that it promotes and protects unions and union workers by protecting Equal Rights, Freedom of Speech and Assembly, Dues/Initiation Fees/Assessments, Protection of the Right to Sue and Safeguards Against improper Disciplinary Action. But the KEY difference is that in order to protect your rights under the LMRDA you must essentially sue in court to protect your rights (whether any harassment issues are involved with other agencies) which can be very expensive and difficult to do when your labor organization has failed to represent you properly. BUT, the National Labor Relations Act is under attack and it is coming from the I.A.T.S.E. legal counsel that has been helping certain Locals find a way out of their Duty of Fair Representation all together. These are the NON-EXCLUSIVE Hiring Halls like Local 16 I.A.T.S.E in San Francisco, who has AGGRESSIVELY fought against the NLRB and forced legal opinion to grant them this status of NON-Exclusive Hiring Hall.
http://mynlrb.nlrb.gov/link/document.aspx/09031d458004998d

These I.A.T.S.E. Locals who operate as Non-Exclusive Halls owe you NO Duty of Fair Representation and DO NOT have to publish ANY hiring hall rules nor have to explain their hiring decisions with any written objective criteria. This did not come about as a policy that the members of the labor organization decided upon and voted for. It has been the Business Manager and their agents who have driven this while being challenged by multiple members of the labor organization who felt they were not treated fairly. They tried to seek remedies within the Local but when those failed they sought help with the NLRB. They may have had very strong evidence that their Local did not treat them fairly, but in the end it does not matter at the NLRB (which is free and you can file yourself with no lawyer). If your Local is a NON-EXCLUSIVE Hiring Hall then they are OFF THE HOOK with the NLRB. You could still sue on the LMRDA issues, which overlap to some extent but the "legal trick" here that seems to harm the whole idea of having a "union" protect such rights, allows these locals to get away with actions that would cause them to be in a great deal of legal trouble with the NLRB under the NLRA and diminish any attempts to litigate against them. The International WILL NOT step in in any way to help you.

So ask yourself: would you join a "labor organization" that feels it DOES NOT owe you ANY Duty of Fair Representation under the National Labor Relations Act nor any of the other protections guaranteed within? Would you join up and pay work fees to these people who feel that they do not have to explain their Hiring Hall Rules in any written objective manner? If something happens with an employer and the labor organization decides to "throw you under the bus" to protect themselves, you will have little to no protection nor remedies, the I.A.T.S.E. constitution does not hold much weight when a Non-Exclusive Hiring Hall decides to blacklist people and stop giving them work. The International is VERY UNLIKELY to step in to help in any way. You can go to the NLRB but they can do almost nothing unless you can prove your Hall is acting like an Exclusive Hall but trying to use the NON-EXCLUSIVE arguments to protect themselves from litigation (and giving you a Duty of Fair Representation under the Law).

Check out the "Hiring Hall" before you decide to even get in touch with them. Does their website post their Objective Hiring Hall Rules online? Will they be upfront and tell you what type of hall they run and how they do it? Check with the NLRB and see if there have been a lot of complaints filed against this Local or not:

NLRB Search for Labor Organization
http://www.nlrb.gov/search/advanced/all?clear=1
http://www.nlrb.gov/search/advanced...cisco) AND (state:CA*) AND case_type:(C OR R) (local 16 San Francisco example)

Union Facts:
http://www.unionfacts.com/union/Stage_&_Picture_Operators
http://www.unionfacts.com/lu/4262/IATSE/16 (Local 16 San Francisco example)
(see unfair labor practices and other organization information)

Here is a example of a NON-EXCLUSIVE HALL's "hiring hall rules":
IATSE Local 16 Web Page
I. A. T. S. E. Local 16 RESUME DISCLAIMER
If you are submitting a resume to Local 16, please include the following:
Full legal name
Current address with zip code
Current phone number with area code
Current pager number with area code (if applicable)
Current cell phone number with area code (if applicable)
A list of your technical skills
A list of prior experience in the entertainment field
A list of references with names, relationship and contact information

Local 16 collects resumes from experienced technicians in the entertainment fields for possible referal to our signature employers. By collecting resumes Local 16 makes no promise of employment, but rather, as a service to our employers, will review resume submissions. 
Local 16 will keep your resume on file for 6 months. If you have not been referred to an employer within 6 months of submitting your resume, you may, if you wish, resubmit your resume.
After submitting your resume you may be asked by Local 16 to attend an orientation meeting. This meeting is for informational purposes only and does not imply that Local 16 will refer any technician to an employer. At this meeting you may be asked to take an exam to demonstrate your competency in the crafts represented by Local 16. The results of this test influence the circumstances under which Local 16 will refer you to an employer.
At such time as Local 16 is unable to fulfill an employer=s request for labor with the technicians it currently represents, Local 16 may review its resume collection and refer candidates based on the skills listed in their resume, experience in the field, and upon favorable references. The employer or its representative will inform Local 16 of the qualifications of new referrals and, upon a favorable review, Local 16 will continue to refer that technician to future jobs. 
Should the employer or its representative inform Local 16 that the referred technician did not possess the required skills, Local 16 is then under no obligation to refer that technician in the future.
Local 16 may infer from resumes that a technician possesses skills related to the primary skills listed on the resume, and may refer that technician to such jobs if the above criteria is in place. Candidates are free to decline any reference for employment, but are informed that they might not be called again if they have declined a referral."

Now here you can find links to the MANY EXCLUSIVE Hiring Halls in I.A.T.S.E or go search for the few NON-Exclusive ones (that don't advertise this obviously):
IATSE International
Local 1
Local 2
Local 4
Local 7
Local 10
Local 11
Local 46
Local 93
Local 115
Local 470
Local 500
Local 720
etc...

and Local 122 San Diego proudly displays The Duty of Fair Representation right here:
http://www.iatse122.org/index.cfm?z...icle.cfm&HomeID=62644&page=Know20Your20Rights

Well you get the point...it is not clearly "labeled" as such with most, but there are a MAJORITY of EXCLUSIVE HIRING HALLS in I.A.T.S.E. that offer "members" of the Labor Organization protection under both the Labor Management Reporting and Disclosure Act AND the National Labor Relations Act. They publish their very objective Hiring Hall Rules and Regulations for all to see online. But, Local 16 I.A.T.S.E. San Francisco is classified as NON-EXCLUSIVE (for now), and does NOT owe "members" of the Labor Organization ANY Duty of Fair Representation. The International NYC Office/President has no problem with this so it is up to you whether you want to enter into this kind of arrangement with this type of hiring hall. These type of halls tend to benefit those who are very friendly to the Office, Officers and Agents and /or are related to them or someone else in the local in some way. For better or worse it is easy to see how a NON-EXCLUSIVE Hiring Hall would be wide open to abusive and biased Referral Call procedures that the office does not have to explain to anyone.

Do you know whether your I.A.T.S.E. Hiring Hall is NON-EXCLUSIVE or EXCLUSIVE?
Does this even make sense to have two different types within the same Intentional Organization?
Its up to you and the members of your local labor organization to help determine this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Labor_Relations_Act (NLRA/National Labor Relations Board)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_Management_Reporting_and_Disclosure_Act (LMRDA/Department of Labor)
http://www.iatse-intl.org/organizing/us_billrights.html (IATSE LMRDA)
http://www.iatse-intl.org/organizing/us_relact.html (IATSE refers to some of the NLRA on the International site)


----------



## Footer

*Re: Questions about IATSE*


jerkyspace said:


> I.A.T.S.E. can be good or bad for you, it all depends on where you are and who is running the Local. The Business Manager and Agents who book your calls and what type of Hiring Hall they are running make a great deal of difference. The past decade has seen an interesting and maybe disturbing trend from the Locals and The International: different TYPES of Hiring Halls. You can be working for an EXCLUSIVE Hiring Hall or a NON-EXCLUSIVE Hiring Hall these days and the International Office/President (NYC) repeatedly has told members of the labor organization that "It is the Long standing policy of the International not to create or otherwise get involved in the referral practices for local unions, each local union is an autonomous body and exercises complete control over its referral and seniority rules".
> 
> Many people are unaware of this key change and how it affects their rights within their local "labor organization". MOST IMPORTANTLY this will determine whether your "hiring hall" will be subject to overview from the National Labor Relations Board, in the form of the protections found in the National Labor Relations Act, which include among many rights : Protection of a wide range activities that promote Organization and Collective Bargaining, a Duty of Fair Representation, Referral calls based on written objective hiring criteria, Protection from Unfair Labor Practices etc.
> 
> I.A.T.S.E. openly embraces the Labor Management Reporting & Disclosure Act on their website,
> IATSE International
> this is what their Union Bill of Rights comes from. This is similar to the NLRA in that it promotes and protects unions and union workers by protecting Equal Rights, Freedom of Speech and Assembly, Dues/Initiation Fees/Assessments, Protection of the Right to Sue and Safeguards Against improper Disciplinary Action. But the KEY difference is that in order to protect your rights under the LMRDA you must essentially sue in court to protect your rights (whether any harassment issues are involved with other agencies) which can be very expensive and difficult to do when your labor organization has failed to represent you properly. BUT, the National Labor Relations Act is under attack and it is coming from the I.A.T.S.E. legal counsel that has been helping certain Locals find a way out of their Duty of Fair Representation all together. These are the NON-EXCLUSIVE Hiring Halls like Local 16 I.A.T.S.E in San Francisco, who has AGGRESSIVELY fought against the NLRB and forced legal opinion to grant them this status of NON-Exclusive Hiring Hall.
> http://mynlrb.nlrb.gov/link/document.aspx/09031d458004998d
> 
> These I.A.T.S.E. Locals who operate as Non-Exclusive Halls owe you NO Duty of Fair Representation and DO NOT have to publish ANY hiring hall rules nor have to explain their hiring decisions with any written objective criteria. This did not come about as a policy that the members of the labor organization decided upon and voted for. It has been the Business Manager and their agents who have driven this while being challenged by multiple members of the labor organization who felt they were not treated fairly. They tried to seek remedies within the Local but when those failed they sought help with the NLRB. They may have had very strong evidence that their Local did not treat them fairly, but in the end it does not matter at the NLRB (which is free and you can file yourself with no lawyer). If your Local is a NON-EXCLUSIVE Hiring Hall then they are OFF THE HOOK with the NLRB. You could still sue on the LMRDA issues, which overlap to some extent but the "legal trick" here that seems to harm the whole idea of having a "union" protect such rights, allows these locals to get away with actions that would cause them to be in a great deal of legal trouble with the NLRB under the NLRA and diminish any attempts to litigate against them. The International WILL NOT step in in any way to help you.
> 
> So ask yourself: would you join a "labor organization" that feels it DOES NOT owe you ANY Duty of Fair Representation under the National Labor Relations Act nor any of the other protections guaranteed within? Would you join up and pay work fees to these people who feel that they do not have to explain their Hiring Hall Rules in any written objective manner? If something happens with an employer and the labor organization decides to "throw you under the bus" to protect themselves, you will have little to no protection nor remedies, the I.A.T.S.E. constitution does not hold much weight when a Non-Exclusive Hiring Hall decides to blacklist people and stop giving them work. The International is VERY UNLIKELY to step in to help in any way. You can go to the NLRB but they can do almost nothing unless you can prove your Hall is acting like an Exclusive Hall but trying to use the NON-EXCLUSIVE arguments to protect themselves from litigation (and giving you a Duty of Fair Representation under the Law).
> 
> Check out the "Hiring Hall" before you decide to even get in touch with them. Does their website post their Objective Hiring Hall Rules online? Will they be upfront and tell you what type of hall they run and how they do it? Check with the NLRB and see if there have been a lot of complaints filed against this Local or not:
> 
> NLRB Search for Labor Organization
> Search | NLRB
> http://www.nlrb.gov/search/advanced...cisco) AND (state:CA*) AND case_type:(C OR R) (local 16 San Francisco example)
> 
> Union Facts:
> Union Facts: Stage & Picture Operators (IATSE) Profile, Membership, Leaders, Political Operations, etc.
> Union Facts: Stage & Picture Operators 16 Profile, Membership, Leaders, Political Operations, etc. (Local 16 San Francisco example)
> (see unfair labor practices and other organization information)
> 
> Here is a example of a NON-EXCLUSIVE HALL's "hiring hall rules":
> IATSE Local 16 Web Page
> I. A. T. S. E. Local 16 RESUME DISCLAIMER
> If you are submitting a resume to Local 16, please include the following:
> Full legal name
> Current address with zip code
> Current phone number with area code
> Current pager number with area code (if applicable)
> Current cell phone number with area code (if applicable)
> A list of your technical skills
> A list of prior experience in the entertainment field
> A list of references with names, relationship and contact information
> 
> Local 16 collects resumes from experienced technicians in the entertainment fields for possible referal to our signature employers. By collecting resumes Local 16 makes no promise of employment, but rather, as a service to our employers, will review resume submissions.
> Local 16 will keep your resume on file for 6 months. If you have not been referred to an employer within 6 months of submitting your resume, you may, if you wish, resubmit your resume.
> After submitting your resume you may be asked by Local 16 to attend an orientation meeting. This meeting is for informational purposes only and does not imply that Local 16 will refer any technician to an employer. At this meeting you may be asked to take an exam to demonstrate your competency in the crafts represented by Local 16. The results of this test influence the circumstances under which Local 16 will refer you to an employer.
> At such time as Local 16 is unable to fulfill an employer=s request for labor with the technicians it currently represents, Local 16 may review its resume collection and refer candidates based on the skills listed in their resume, experience in the field, and upon favorable references. The employer or its representative will inform Local 16 of the qualifications of new referrals and, upon a favorable review, Local 16 will continue to refer that technician to future jobs.
> Should the employer or its representative inform Local 16 that the referred technician did not possess the required skills, Local 16 is then under no obligation to refer that technician in the future.
> Local 16 may infer from resumes that a technician possesses skills related to the primary skills listed on the resume, and may refer that technician to such jobs if the above criteria is in place. Candidates are free to decline any reference for employment, but are informed that they might not be called again if they have declined a referral."
> 
> Now here you can find links to the MANY EXCLUSIVE Hiring Halls in I.A.T.S.E or go search for the few NON-Exclusive ones (that don't advertise this obviously):
> IATSE International
> Local 1
> Local 2
> Local 4
> Local 7
> Local 10
> Local 11
> Local 46
> Local 93
> Local 115
> Local 470
> Local 500
> Local 720
> etc...
> 
> and Local 122 San Diego proudly displays The Duty of Fair Representation right here:
> IATSE Local 122 - San Diego, CA
> 
> Well you get the point...it is not clearly "labeled" as such with most, but there are a MAJORITY of EXCLUSIVE HIRING HALLS in I.A.T.S.E. that offer "members" of the Labor Organization protection under both the Labor Management Reporting and Disclosure Act AND the National Labor Relations Act. They publish their very objective Hiring Hall Rules and Regulations for all to see online. But, Local 16 I.A.T.S.E. San Francisco is classified as NON-EXCLUSIVE (for now), and does NOT owe "members" of the Labor Organization ANY Duty of Fair Representation. The International NYC Office/President has no problem with this so it is up to you whether you want to enter into this kind of arrangement with this type of hiring hall. These type of halls tend to benefit those who are very friendly to the Office, Officers and Agents and /or are related to them or someone else in the local in some way. For better or worse it is easy to see how a NON-EXCLUSIVE Hiring Hall would be wide open to abusive and biased Referral Call procedures that the office does not have to explain to anyone.
> 
> Do you know whether your I.A.T.S.E. Hiring Hall is NON-EXCLUSIVE or EXCLUSIVE?
> Does this even make sense to have two different types within the same Intentional Organization?
> Its up to you and the members of your local labor organization to help determine this.
> 
> National Labor Relations Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (NLRA/National Labor Relations Board)
> Labor Management Reporting and Disclosure Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (LMRDA/Department of Labor)
> IATSE International (IATSE LMRDA)
> IATSE International (IATSE refers to some of the NLRA on the International site)



Most IA halls I have worked with work something like this...

Who is your dad? 
Who is your cousin? 
Who is your uncle?
Who is your fishing buddy? 

If none of those people are members of the union, you won't be getting a call unless U2 is coming to town. 

I don't think this is a surprise to most people. Sorry you got blacklisted from the local. The thing you have to remember is IA is treated as a labor company in most regions vs an actual union. It sucks, but its reality in most regions.


----------



## ruinexplorer

*Re: Questions about IATSE*

jerkeyspace, welcome to the Booth. I'm sorry to hear that you had a bad experience with the union. It is difficult when you end up being blacklisted. I hope that you will find your way.

While I do not necessarily share the same sentiments about the union as the last two posts, I do heartily agree that you need to be informed. To learn a bit more about the issue of Exclusive and Non-Exclusive hiring practices, you can read more about it here. 

Business Agents often have thankless jobs. They generally get requests from employers for labor sometimes as little as 48 hours prior to a call. The BA may not always have the greatest amount of time to methodically go through the call list and hire in the most "ethical" means due to time constraints. They often will be required to call those who have been most dependable in taking calls and are known to have the skills necessary. So, sometimes you have to play the "game" of getting to know who will be giving you work. No, this is not an easy task, especially if you are not a sworn member, but someone who is on the non-member call list. 

When you have a bad experience, the best way to handle that is through positive conversation. If you are hot-headed and angry at how things have happened and you let that come out in your conversation, you will not be helping your case. If however, you take the time to speak with the BA rationally, you may end up getting more calls (depending on how they staff). Even then, you may not like their answer, but you are at least not shooting yourself in the foot.


----------



## jerkyspace

*Re: Questions about IATSE*

Thank you. I always find my way...and I always seem to uncover the "bugs" nobody else wants to fix or deal with (both on the gig and in life). While it has not been pleasant nor easy, I am very happy to not have wasted several thousand hard earned dollars and any more time to become a journeyman member of Local 16 in San Francisco. I would not feel comfortable paying dues to a labor organization who does not feel that the Duty of Fair Representation nor any part of the National Labor Relations Act applies to them. Again, this is the apparent beauty of living in a "free" country. Those who can benefit from the crony halls, more power to them and good for them. But, this is the 21st century and its becoming time that the International at least "own up" and make it clear which halls are EXCLUSIVE and which are NOT. I really wish I knew before I walked away from a very successful and busy freelance career. People can make their own choices about what is best for their needs, and those within those halls can use their internal power to make change if they think they need to. I think it is a problem to run the two opposing types under one roof and share the C&B between them under the same name of IATSE. Denver Local 7, Vegas Local 720 and Memphis Local 46 have all found out the hard way from the NLRB that they can't run the crony ways anymore like they used to.

"Business Agents often have thankless jobs. They generally get requests from employers for labor sometimes as little as 48 hours prior to a call. The BA may not always have the greatest amount of time to methodically go through the call list and hire in the most "ethical" means due to time constraints. They often will be required to call those who have been most dependable in taking calls and are known to have the skills necessary. So, sometimes you have to play the "game" of getting to know who will be giving you work. No, this is not an easy task, especially if you are not a sworn member, but someone who is on the non-member call list. "

I agree it is not easy, but it is a steady job with a great deal of freedom and power...plus no load-in nor load-out. That is the nature of our business, but that is never any excuse to violate the law nor someones rights and to do it repeatedly. Sure an agent might have to make a quick call, but that is why many Locals have written and objective referral criteria (as realistically possible in show biz). Whatever happens, it is reality that there won't always be a chance to do everything exactly by the written rules (or whatever your hiring hall uses to decide), and an "honest" Local/agent would hopefully do the right thing. In a good Local you get taken care of one way or the other. BUT, abuses like these are the problem: 

favorable bookings to individuals or groups based on friendship and or relationship to other members while discriminating against all others not in this group,
failing to process grievances and give fair and timely hearings, 
failing to give written notice of grievances, 
failure to notify member of the labor organization of employer grievances, 
failure to inform in writing members of the labor organization that employers have made "do not requests" for them in writing and that they have lost work, 
reporting employer grievances (and keeping the member in the dark), to outside agencies like the National Labor Relations Board and the Department of Industrial Relations in order "smear" the character of the member of the labor organization and help to defeat their ongoing case against the Local and employer, 
assisting an employer (written testimony) in their defense against a member of the labor organization,
trying to tell the member of the labor organization that they are NOT a "member" because they are not a Journeyman (Journeyman is a classification...if you work under a Collective Bargaining Agreement then you ARE a MEMBER of the Labor Organization...maybe just a "permit or overhire" worker but a MEMBER with regards to the NLRA and the LMRDA),
refusal to give the member of the labor organization a copy of the International Constitution & ByLaws,
refusal to give the member a copy of the hiring hall rules (however vague and contradictory they may be),
reducing the quantity and quality of the referral calls of members of the labor organization who challenge the local outside with the DIR, NLRB, State or Federal Court (after the required 4 month internal remedy route has failed),
not referring the member of the labor organization to any calls in retaliation for challenging the Local and Agents in ANY way (especially with the NLRB),
refusal to explain the sudden loss of work due to this type of blacklisting,
refusal by the international organization to protect/enforce the C&B and investigate the Local who has been abusing it.
The C&B Local and International says no Blacklisting, but if your Local won't investigate and head office (NYC) won't then the C&B isn't being put to use.

In cases like these it does not matter how much favor the member of the labor organization has, it does not matter how hard they work, how they are always available for work, on time and or finish their jobs/tasks early, how organized, skilled, talented and hard working they are, how heavily requested they are by employers, how they may have served as a job steward and head of department for years before being fast tracked into the apprentice program...all that matters is the black and white line that some locals draw in the sand. Cross it and you are done. You are now the "enemy". No amount of smooching will ever change what happened. You can only hope the leadership of the Local changes through elections (and we know how often that happens). Or to succeed in the Courts. This is why the NLRA and the LMRDA Act exist, and this is why I.A.T.S.E. was formed as a "union" in the first place, to protect against such abuse against workers.

"When you have a bad experience, the best way to handle that is through positive conversation. If you are hot-headed and angry at how things have happened and you let that come out in your conversation, you will not be helping your case. If however, you take the time to speak with the BA rationally, you may end up getting more calls (depending on how they staff). Even then, you may not like their answer, but you are at least not shooting yourself in the foot."

Agreed and good advice no matter what type of hall you have. Been there...done that. But, the BA introduced himself in a screaming format. Even after that ALL remedies were very reasonably tried...the Local decided to delay, hide information, discredit the member and then they played burn the apprentice at the stake. Once you run out of internal options, any challenge in any form no matter how reasonable is treated as "railing" against the union. That is a big part of the NON-EXCLUSIVE Hiring Hall play-book. These types of halls will often treat you as the enemy if you do not agree with them. This again is why the NLRA and LMRDA exist (and the C&B too), to help prevent this old school cronyism and retaliation/payback against anyone who "dares" to challenge their Local. Sadly, the Oath of Obligation is used as a "weapon" against the member of the Labor Organization, who despite the four month remedy requirement, feels that ANY information about the Local given to ANYONE outside of the Local will cause them to also be burned at the same stake, despite the laws that says otherwise (NLRA and the LMRDA). These types of Locals just don't want you talking about it, especially to other members of the labor organization. That's why they quickly move to isolate out anyone who speaks up. They want to prevent people from organizing internally or externally against them. Ironic for a labor organization isn't it?


----------



## ruinexplorer

*Re: Questions about IATSE*

Obviously, there are grievances in this matter. Please refrain from continuing to use this forum as a punching bag for your bad experiences. I am sure the BA of the Hall would have a different opinion of the matter, but this is not the place for that discussion to happen.

Some clarifications for others on this forum are to follow. Please understand, I am not a legal representative and the following is based on my experience as a former member of IATSE, an individual who has hired both union and non-union stagehands, a self-employed freelance technician (1099 taxable income) and an employee under staging companies as well as venues.

Not all Business Agents are exempt from taking calls. Many locals are small enough that the BA is essentially required to take calls as he/she would be unable to fill the calls. Some will take calls to suplement their income as the fee associated as BA does not always pay well. The Business Agent is an elected position by members in good standing.

Since there is a question as to what defines a member of a labor organization, here is the direct quote from the definitions of Title 29:Labor used by the US Department of Labor, Office of Labor-Management Standards in regard to the The Labor-Management Reporting and Disclosure Act of 1959, as amended.

> § 401.15 Member or member in good standing.
> 
> Member or member in good standing, when used in reference to a labor organization, includes any person who has fulfilled the requirements for membership in such organization, and who neither has voluntarily withdrawn from membership nor has been expelled or suspended from membership after appropriate proceedings consistent with lawful provisions of the constitution and bylaws of such organization.





Many of the grievances stated above will have different results depending on the membership status of the individual. At a minimum, to become an actual member of IATSE, the person in question will generally have some sort of assessment of skills, be voted for approval to be included as a member by current members in good standing, pay some sort of initiation cost, and swear an oath of acceptance. There will likely be an ongoing monetary dues associated with being a member, which will be part of being a "member in good standing" agreement. Just working under a contract negotiated by collective bargaining does not automatically grant inclusion in any union. Nor does fees withheld from pay as part of that agreement constitute dues. As a non-member, or someone called by the union as part of a non-member call list, you do have the right to know the collective bargaining agreement with the employer in which you are contracted. This is not the Constitution and Bylaws which are afforded to the membership (which you will be given when you swear-in).

For the record, ControlBooth is not the place guaranteed by the union members "bill of rights" to voice a grievance.

> Union Member Rights
> 
> Bill of Rights - Union members have:
> 
> equal rights to participate in union activities
> 
> freedom of speech and assembly
> 
> voice in setting rates of dues, fees, and assessments
> 
> protection of the right to sue
> 
> safeguards against improper discipline
> Copies of Collective Bargaining Agreements - Union members and nonunion employees have the right to receive or inspect copies of collective bargaining agreements.
> 
> Reports - Unions are required to file an initial information report (Form LM-1), copies of constitutions and bylaws, and an annual financial report (Form LM-2/3/4) with OLMS. Unions must make the reports available to members and permit members to examine supporting records for just cause. The reports are public information and copies are available from the OLMS Internet Public Disclosure Room at U.S. Department of Labor - Office of Labor-Management Standards (OLMS) - ONLINE PUBLIC DISCLOSURE ROOM: Union Reports and Collective Bargaining Agreements.



This is a great place for us to discuss the pros and cons of membership and career paths. Please refrain from throwing out individual grievances so we can keep this as an open discussion.


----------



## jerkyspace

*Re: Questions about IATSE*

While they may be on the line of relating to me or not, the listed "types" of individual grievances that come out of the discussed "non-exclusive" hiring hall, are not meant to be a specific "veiled" "bash" at Local 16 specifically (they are identified because they are the one I know for a fact that classify themselves this way). The grievances come from the collective recent NLRB and Court cases over the last few years that relate to the Duty of Fair Representation, the NLRA and the LMRDA. These are what people should be aware of and look out for when thinking of an IATSE career (I did not include the death threats, physical, verbal and mental abuse, sexual harassment and discrimination and other nastier stuff in order to make it less inflammatory...oh well). 

If you want to talk specifics vs opinions, I could say that the detailed evidence in my cases would have proceeded to harmful and costly charges against the Local in question if they were an "Exclusive Hiring Hall" like many many other IATSE ones. Being Non_Exclusive doesn't change the facts that the NLRB has accepted and agreed with the information/evidence presented already, it just changes whether or not they can act under the NLRA on it. This has no effect on the harmful actions taken and whether the Courts would have a very different result based on the same strong evidence. The point is that by making the "Hiring Hall" Non-Exclusive under the NLRA (and LMRDA), this gives the BA a "get out of jail free card" they can play over an over at the NLRB, when that would not work in many other Locals under the same IASTE International name, following the same C&B and not very different collective bargaining agreements nationwide that each Local themselves make up. This is not a problem to be openly discussed (to organize to improve conditions)?

The important matter is the Exclusive vs Non-Exclusive issue in all legal realms (which are too many and confusing and that does not benefit employees). Those are specific grievance examples and are from numerous NLRB and Superior/Federal Court Cases available online to the public. My intent was to point out the problems with there being two very different types of hiring halls that seem to be contradictory. If someone was signing up I would hope they knew what TYPE they were signing up for because it could make a HUGE difference down the road (even though it may or may not ever affect them directly). The problem that I see, is that the only good reason that any Hiring Hall would decide to steer away from the National Labor Relations Act, would be to get out of or keep out of trouble. I have yet to figure out any other advantage. If there is some way that Local 16 operates any differently than Local 720 or Local 7 or Local 46 then I have missed it (day to day practice and results). The only difference seems to be whether or not and how much rights the "employee" has when something goes wrong with either the union, the employer or both. 

This is when the employee gets told they are not a member of the union and gets throw under the bus absent any grievance being heard nor anything in writing. That speaks to a harmful advantage in the BA/Hiring Hall court over the employee (member of the union or not as apprentice, journeyman, aux, whatever), when they would not have this problem if they just happened to be working in a different IATSE Local that was an Exclusive Classification (or they could and the BA is abusing that too). The legal community is buzzing around the LMRDA and NLRA and unions these days because the grey area needs to be cleared up and probably will in this decade or the next via legislation or court decisions. Legal reviews have specifically pointed out the LOW case success rate that employees have at the NLRB under the NLRA. This is because the lawyers are good at getting around things that are weak or written poorly. In this case employees have overlapping issues that involve their unions C&B, CBA and the NLRA and the LMRDA but several different legal venues and agencies that oversee each in different in sometimes contradictory ways. 

Until new unifying court decisions or State/Federal Legislations, IATSE seems to be happy existing in the "grey", BUT employees/members have a right to know because they are not making it clear (they should). I just don't think it means that you don't have ANY rights. Employees have basic rights under the union collective bargaining agreements. It may not be rights to vote in union elections, nor attend meetings, nor other C&B UNION MEMBER specific things like this, but I think it is safe to say that this does not mean that they are some kind of indentured servant, who are lucky to be freed after working several years and after paying several thousand dollars to pass an open book test just to gain these "rights".

Props for going to the government "manual", the Code of Federal Regulations. Everyone should learn how to read this so they can check up on our government. I know it very well. Your quote of the LMRDA is correct, and specific to the LMRDA and in "member of the union classification" realm. The point for all "members of a labor organization" to realize is that this is the same type of argument used by the Local in question, to deny hard working and work fee paying "employees" their rights under the Collective Bargaining Agreement:

From IATSE:

Bargaining Unit 
"The group of employees in jobs constituting the appropriate unit for representation by a union. In a sense, the employees in the bargaining unit are the electorate that determines which representative is to be chosen for collective bargaining. Historically, prior to the NLRA and the majority rule in determining the bargaining agent, the unit for collective bargaining was whatever the union was able to make it by exerting economic pressure on the employer. As provided by law, the bargaining unit is "the employer unit, craft unit, plant unit, or subdivision thereof," and essentially it consists of those employees who share a "community of interest." The employee bargaining unit embraces all employees, whether or not they are members of the union, and is basically of two types, namely, craft and industrial. The bargaining unit is separate and distinct from the union, and it is incorrect to refer to the union as the bargaining unit."

This is what I was referring to specifically. You don't have to be an Apprentice, nor Journeyman nor any other "Union" classification for these basic written rights found in your Collective Bargaining Agreement. In most Collective Bargaining Agreements (I hope!), there are written specific procedures for Grievances (involving the employee, employer and union) and basic rights for ALL EMPLOYEES:

And the same section you quote from the CFR:

"§ 401.6 Employee.
Employee means any individual employed by an employer, and includes any individual whose work has ceased as a consequence of, or in connection with, any current labor dispute or because of any unfair labor practice or because of exclusion or expulsion from a labor organization in any manner or for any reason inconsistent with the requirements of this Act.

§ 401.9 Labor organization.
Labor organization means a labor organization engaged in an industry affecting commerce and includes any organization of any kind, any agency, or employee representation committee, group, association, or plan so engaged in which employees participate and which exists for the purpose, in whole or in part, of dealing with employers concerning grievances, labor disputes, wages, rates of pay, hours, or other terms or conditions of employment, and any conference, general committee, joint or system board, or joint council so engaged which is subordinate to a national or international labor organization, other than a State or local central body."

Back to IATSE Definitions:

"Grievance
A formal complaint alleging a violation, misapplication, or misinterpretation of the collective bargaining agreement. Usually a grievance is raised by an individual employee in a bargaining unit, with the SHOP STEWARD and various union representatives assisting the employee in carrying the grievance forward. Occasionally, depending on the nature of the grievance and the contractual provisions, the union or even the employer may bring a grievance."

It does not say the Labor Organization is made up of MEMBERS of the Union, it says ANY EMPLOYEE. A Member is a type of Employee who has additional rights based upon this classification. EVERYONE has the same BASIC RIGHTS is the most important point. ALL EMPLOYEES are protected by the CBA to some extent. After whatever the specific internal remedies are and whatever their results, in the end either the NLRB and/or the Courts will allow the EMPLOYEE and chance to have their rights defended (if the labor organization fails to do so for them as promised in the CBA). It means the "union" is obligated to certain rights based on the collective bargaining agreement and therefore the LMRDA and the NLRA apply to ALL employees not just "members" of the labor organization. Without the protection of the union and the CBA you have less rights:

IATSE Definitions again:

Employment-at-Will
"A concept which holds that a worker's employment is "at the will of the employer" and that the employer is free to terminate an employee at any time....The managerial right to discharge an employee at will has been largely curtailed through unionization and by the collective bargaining agreement, which states that the discharge of workers covered by contract must be for just cause."

Without the union and collective bargaining agreements the employee could be fired for no reason with no way to restore their rights outside of a labor organization (one that represents their rights against the employer). I think the law clearly protects employees who are members of a labor organization, whether or not they are members of the union, under their CBA(s).

You would seem to be suggesting otherwise(or just just talking about layers of member definitions?). IATSE should not be telling or making employees feel in any way, who are booked by the hiring hall and who pay the hiring hall a work fee, while working under the hiring hall CBA and the C&B with the employers, that they have NO rights under the LMRDA/NLRA because they are not a Member of the Union (again a level of classification). I do not think you have to be an apprentice, aux or journeyman to have access to the basic rights under the US Constitution/Bill of Rights, State/Federal Labor Laws/Standards and the LMRDA and/or the NLRA. What is harming all members of this labor organization is the use/abuse of the Non-Exclusive Hiring Hall classification that is taking these away (or at least forcing the employee to the NLRB and or Courts instead of resolving it within the union). That is what all members of all labor organizations should be organizing against. That is another point to consider especially for those looking to sign up and work through this to make it to the magic membership levels.

You really did not need to say this, but if it makes you feel better, that is your right:
"For the record, ControlBooth is not the place guaranteed by the union members "bill of rights" to voice a grievance."
Who is really doing the bashing here? (not an invitation...just endless indirect sarcasm with a laugh).

I think IATSE could be much better and is slipping in the 21st century with outdated thinking. It is still better than freelancing, trust me. But, the way things are now you need to consider which Hiring Hall type you would want to be involved with (nothing is clearly defined across the whole international organization). This labor organization has a very serious problem, and people should organize to help resolve it. Non-Exclusive Hiring Hall=no National Labor Relations Act. The NLRA is GOOD for Labor Organizations right? Either way having both Non Exclusive and Exclusive under the same International Union Name and C&B? Is there some sense in this beyond giving the BA(s) freedom to abuse and not have to explain anything to the NLRB under the NLRA? Because it seems specifically "designed" to negotiate that particular hurdle very much to the benefit of the "labor organization" over the "employee member" and even the "union member"?

No disrespect intended, just exercising the discussion muscles.
cheers


References:

IATSE Definitions
http://www.iatse-intl.org/organizing/us_terms.html

NLRB the NLRA
http://www.nlrb.gov/national-labor-relations-act

The Code of Federal Regulations NLRA
29 CFR PART 104—NOTIFICATION OF EMPLOYEE RIGHTS; OBLIGATIONS OF EMPLOYERS
http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/tex...20110830:1.40;idno=29;cc=ecfr;start=1;size=25

The Department of Labor the LMRDA
http://www.dol.gov/olms/regs/statutes/lmrda-act.htm

The Code of Federal Regulations LMRDA
Title 29 PART 451—LABOR ORGANIZATIONS AS DEFINED IN THE LABOR-MANAGEMENT REPORTING AND DISCLOSURE ACT OF 1959
http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/tex...rgn=div5&view=text&node=29:2.1.4.1.10&idno=29

The Code of Federal Regulations LMRDA
Title 29 PART 401 - MEANING OF TERMS USED IN THIS SUBCHAPTER
http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/tex...5;view=text;node=29:2.1.4.1.1;idno=29;cc=ecfr

Labor Union "legal" definition+ History
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Labor+Union


* the union in my case, specifics aside, had multiple four month internal grievance routes, as did the International's West Coast Office and the NYC HQ/President...I have tried and tried again to find remedies and answers from within...hard to talk about types of Hiring Halls with getting myself entangled...I don't need to "use" this excellent forum/site to publicly "try" my grievances...I am using the legal routes left to me and keeping the specific to myself other than informing other members of labor organizations along the way about what IATSE has specifically said and done that is not in question...since I am excluded from the workplace (for now)...but still in touch with many other members otherwise *


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## fjb3005

rochem said:


> Well, after about a year and a half of working as an overhire with the local, I have been invited to join IATSE. I'm pretty excited about this, but before I jump in headfirst, I wanted to get some outside opinions of the union. I know all locals are different and many people have varying opinions on IATSE, but that's why I wanted to post my questions here. I'm currently a high school senior, and I will be going off to college next year for Theatre Design/Technology, with a concentration in Lighting Design. From the looks of it, my college for next year will be under a different local's jurisdiction, so I wouldn't be able to commute regularly back and forth for calls. However, I'm hoping that having a card might help to get on some overhire lists in wherever city I end up next year. Also, I'm hoping that when I apply for summer stock and internships and such, having the union card would at least imply a base set of skills which could help me to get the position. My concerns are, however, that having a union card would actually hurt my chances at getting jobs and positions wherever I end up next year. For the record, I've already addressed these and other questions to the BA at my local, I just wanted to get another set of opinions. So what would you recommend? Would joining the union help me out at this stage, or would it have the potential to hurt me as I go into college? Or would it really not affect me at all? I'm proud of the work I've put in and the experience I've gained through working long hours with the union, and I feel like having a card would help me out in the long term, however others may have different opinions about the IA. Your thoughts?


I have worked for going on my 18th year on the "extra board" in Denver. I also, freelanced operations/logistics for the NFL and PGA. It is like pulling teeth to get voted into our local. Until last year they never held a class in anything to teach endless stream of new hires what or how to do anything. I do fine off the extra board, its just difficult to get the votes unless your related to people. My advice, if they are offering a card, you get it and hold onto it like a winning powerball ticket. For the most part wherever you land, if you're a card you will automatically be bumped ahead of the extras. Plus at your age, keep working hard and making this kind of money, spending wisely, you will have a very comfortable retirement.


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## dogfall

I have worked as an overhire for 7 years. I was asked to join a few times and didn't, because I was getting as much work as I wanted without being a member. That is then this is now...I would like to get a travelers card. Should i do this through a local or is there another way?


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