# Converted Theatre Space



## HomeGrown (Feb 10, 2015)

Hello,

I am looking into converting a loft/ storefront space in NYC into a theatre space/ studio and was wondering what was involved/ what things I need to look into other than the obvious:

-Grid (also wondering what this particular item will cost)
-Lighting instruments
-Dimmers
-Light/ Sound Board
-Sound System
-Seating
-Sound Proofing
-Soft goods
-Rent/ utilities/ insurance expenses

I know this is a huge undertaking and would love some initial guidance. Were looking at space roughly 30x40ft with 12ft-15ft ceilings.

Thanks to everyone for the help!


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## Edrick (Feb 10, 2015)

Estimated budget? What is the source of funding? Types of shows? Target audience? For profit? Non profit? Group of friends or a regular business endeavour? 

Are some of the questions I have for you to help with what you asked above


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## HomeGrown (Feb 10, 2015)

Edrick said:


> Estimated budget? What is the source of funding? Types of shows? Target audience? For profit? Non profit? Group of friends or a regular business endeavour?
> 
> Are some of the questions I have for you to help with what you asked above




Edrick said:


> Estimated budget? What is the source of funding? Types of shows? Target audience? For profit? Non profit? Group of friends or a regular business endeavour?
> 
> Are some of the questions I have for you to help with what you asked above


we are looking at spending 6-8k a month on rent, plus insurance an utilities. The goal for the space is for its primary function to be a rental facility, it will have a theatre and 2 rehearsal studios that can be rented for performances, rehearsals, auditions, shoots, events, etc. There will also be a resident theatre company run by those of us operating the theater that will produce a 3-4 show season each running for 3 weeks. It will be a non-profit space hoping to provide affordable rental to arts organizations. It will be run by a group of us that have become friends over time as frequent collaborators. While I would consider us a group of friends, we were collaborators first and have been used to the environment of producing theatre together for a decent length of time.


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## Edrick (Feb 10, 2015)

Do you guys have an estimated budget for startup or method for acquiring capital?


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## HomeGrown (Feb 10, 2015)

Edrick said:


> Do you guys have an estimated budget for startup or method for acquiring capital?


We don't have a complete estimated startup budget yet, were in the process of creating one. Best guess is that it's going to be 30k plus the first few months rent, but that may turn out to be low. We do have a way of paying for the startup though, if a couple of angel donors come through which is looking likely.


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## Edrick (Feb 10, 2015)

How about employee salaries? How will the people working on this project be able to focus on it without needing additional jobs? 

All these are questions I've been asked and I've been through the process you're looking at. So these questions I'm asking aren't to discourage as I'm just bouncing ideas and questions to you to add to your list. 

Also factor as you mentioned utilities but more specific

Electric
Oil or natural gas
Water
Sewar 
Trash collection fees if applicable or dumpster rental

Permitting fees or license fees

Internet 
Phone
Office supplies
Furniture 

I'd recommend getting someone who has a business backgrojnd in with you guys so they can create the plan and profit loss estimates. You'll need projected expenses and income figures


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## HomeGrown (Feb 10, 2015)

Edrick said:


> How about employee salaries? How will the people working on this project be able to focus on it without needing additional jobs?
> 
> All these are questions I've been asked and I've been through the process you're looking at. So these questions I'm asking aren't to discourage as I'm just bouncing ideas and questions to you to add to your list.
> 
> ...


Thank you! That will be our next step in the process. From a theatrical standpoint, was there anything I'm missing for finishing the space out, assuming that build-out us covered by the landlord? and do you have a guess what the grid will cost to buy and have installed?


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## RickR (Feb 12, 2015)

You are missing the electrical distribution and communication systems. I also don't see anything for front of house; box office/ lobby/ concessions. Costs the grid with related rigging and on the rest of the list vary radically with the space, how it's built, size and a hundred other factors. A pipe grid system can be done for a few thousand, motorized line sets can be $30K each. Beefing up the roof could be even more. Similarly installed dimmers and connector strips are several times more than portable gear unless you factor in the labor and portable cables for many shows.

Are you buying new to permanently install or renting on an as needed basis? It would be a very special landlord that would build out a theater. There is a huge amount of specialized structure and a poor track record for the industry.

Getting good help now will be far cheaper than wishing you knew something later.


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## venuetech (Feb 12, 2015)

I recall working with a NYC company that was all volunteer equity actors. Even though they were not getting paid for performing, the company was still obligated to follow union rules and pay equity for the members various union benefits. The talk at the time was how quickly it added up. all this may not apply in your situation.


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## Senorfish (Feb 12, 2015)

A 30x40 venue sounds small once you start talking about splitting it up into the main stage and two practice rooms. What about lobby and box office space? Dressing room? Business office? Tech booth?

If you make the main stage/audience too small then rental groups may not be able to sell enough tickets to cover the cost of the rental.

I've definitely seen and worked in some tiny theaters like this. The trick is to keep it simple. Buy cheap name brand used gear. Maximize seating area inorder to maximize ticket sales return for renters. Skip the practice rooms. Make sure the fixed grid is securely anchored to the ceiling. You'll need 100amps of power minimum, 200amps is better. If the venue doesn't already have that (hopefully no antique 60amp fuse panels) then you'll need to hire an electrician to rewire the place. Who pays for that, you or the landlord? Or better to search for another space?


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## danhr (Feb 14, 2015)

Not sure if your non profit corp. is set up yet but our application was begun in the fall of 2012 when we opened. The status was recently granted after nearly 2-1/2 years and we have yet to receive our tax exemption info. YMMV of course but this is NYS......


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## Les (Feb 16, 2015)

Do not forget about ADA and fire code. Looks closely in to the requirements for a public assembly space and include a contractor/architect/consultant who is familiar with such work. You will probably need to sprinkler the entire space (or modify the existing system) and this is going to eat in to the budget. Your restrooms also need to be a certain size depending on occupancy rating, inclines/ramps need to be below a particular rise/run ratio, doorways a certain width, etc... Get this stuff figured out now because it will be difficult or impossible to change later.

@RickR is right about the grid. Asking how much it will cost is like saying "I need to build a house; how much will it cost?". Pipe grid/dead-hung electrics are among the cheapest, or go with Unistut if you want to ruffle some feathers, but a contractor should be involved in either event. The price only goes up from there when it comes to linesets/winched battens as the labor pool is smaller and much more specialized (expensive).

Three options when it comes to dimmers: racks, packs, and rackmount packs. Dimmer packs are the cheapest initially but generally limit your power capacity per circuit. Don't forget that each pack needs about 20-30A to it -- can't just string "permanent" extension cords everywhere, so either way, you'll be running wire. They are also more difficult to access when needed and often result in a mess of wires leading from multiple fixture locations. Rackmount units are often a good rack/pack compromise so give them a look to see if they would fill your needs.

Lighting instruments: Prowl eBay often and keep a lookout on local auction sites. University surplus can be a great source for older instruments with some life still left in them, so look at local colleges and/or find out who they contract to auction off their gear. DO try to be at least a little picky when picking out gear. As tempting as it is, you don't really want to end up with dented Chinese par cans or Kliegl/Century radial ellipsoidals. There are deals to be had out there and you can often get more modern gear for a good price if your timing is right - maybe not Source 4's, but definitely Altman, Strand, or Colortran fixtures. A good go-to is the 360Q (often under $50 used) and parts are easily accessible. Not the most efficient and I wouldn't necessarily suggest buying them new, but you can't beat the value if you're looking at used gear. I would also try my best to keep things [especially ellipsoidals] within the same series (360Q, 5/50, lekolite, etc) rather than mixing brands and types. Don't forget the costs of buying clamps, safety cables, connectors, extension cables, lamps, etc. These things add up fast.

If you're looking to buy new, I would seriously consider LED fixtures for as many things as you can. You may not be able to get away with all LED, but if you can get a few decent/mid-grade LED wash fixtures in lieu of 1,000w par cans, I would absolutely consider that. 

Sound proofing: You will likely need a consultant for this phase. Just please DO NOT hang egg-crate foam or anything else that is flammable. There have been too many fatalities due to the improper use of the stuff. Rockwool panels are pretty common in spaces, but their installation takes careful consideration and planning, which is where a person knowledgeable in the subject matter comes in to play.


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## de27192 (Feb 17, 2015)

HomeGrown said:


> We don't have a complete estimated startup budget yet, were in the process of creating one. Best guess is that it's going to be 30k plus the first few months rent, but that may turn out to be low. We do have a way of paying for the startup though, if a couple of angel donors come through which is looking likely.



So this is quite a small theatre? I think for the theatre and the 2 rehearsal rooms you will struggle to make that 30k work for everything you need. The trouble with a rental place, rather than being a producing house, is that you're much more in need of having industry standard equipment as people hiring the space will need to be familiar with the equipment they're using.

$30k does not go that far. When you consider a fixed angle Source 4 comes in at about $1000, many small theatres could max out a $30k budget just buying their initial complement of profiles.

To work through your list, with some rough ideas:


HomeGrown said:


> -Grid (also wondering what this particular item will cost)



IMHO for $30k total budget you will not get a grid and probably not be able to get even a fly system. Not to mention that with 15ft ceilings, you have no room for a proper fly system anyway. My instinct would be to go for fixed bars over the stage, with access by either a big ladder (IE a Zarges 14 rung Skymaster) or with a small zip-up tower. The tower is much nicer to work in since you can roll it with somebody in it, and make focussing much quicker.

I would recommend you have maybe 3-5 electrics bars (internally wired with spaced sockets) at fixed positions; and perhaps if you intend to fly much set, you could have a couple of tab tracks - this would at least allow you to swipe a couple of different cloths on and off the stage; as well as a fixed bar for either a cloth or a cyc at furthest up-stage.

Also each side of the stage you would benefit from just putting a few simple pulleys and sash cord in the roof to 4' scaff bars, just for hanging black legs on to give you a bit of masking in the wings.


> -Lighting instruments
> -Dimmers
> -Light board



You're in luck - the market is better covered than ever with cheap lanterns. However you do tend to get what you pay for so pick wisely. Brands like *Altman* , *Chauvet *and *Elation* do IMO offer a good quality product at an affordable price, their errr similiarity to major market products also makes them easy to give to visiting companies to use straight away. One thing you could consider, dare I say it - is going all LED. There are decent LED Profiles, Fresnels, PAR Cans, and floods on the market now.... they will save you the investment in dimmers, save you a lot of investment in power cabling (you can run many LEDs off the same circuit and still have them individually controllable), they will save you electricity bills, and they will save you consumable costs IE lamps and gel. Sadly you may get some opposition from hirers, but it's a consideration you should not knock, because of the opportunity to save significant infrastructure costs.

In terms of a desk, all the professional options are going to take a chunk from the budget. Ions are expensive, the MA2 Command Wing is almost sensible but still represents 1/6th of your budget. I would strongly consider a Mini Wing or PC Wing from *Chamsys *could be a sensible option, you should be able to get a Mini Wing for around $1000 I think. It would give you 1 universe of DMX which I would expect to be ample for now. Then you would just need some kind of simple computer for control, a touch screen option would be appreciated I think but you will still want a mouse for encoders. One benefit of Chamsys is their training is very good and the software is free and easy to learn. It's theatre functionality is about the best for the money, in my opinion. 


> -Sound Board
> -Sound System
> -Sound Proofing



I will leave this to somebody else's expertise as I am not a sound professional.


> -Seating



Retractable seating is always popular but often not a very well thought out idea. A theatre I used to live near spent a great deal of it's start up budget putting in retractable seating so they could do theatre or stand up concerts. But then came a noise limit of about 87dB and it's obvious you can't do a rock concert on that... so the retractable seating has simply not been retracted... ever. _There is a decent amount of evidence that the council deliberately did that - installing the versatile seating to get funding as a 'multipurpose venue' and allowing them to shut down the local council run rock venue; and then 'accidentally' later discovering the soundproofing was not sufficient for a concert and it could only be used for theatre which is far more in fitting with the town's snooty council. But the forum is not for politics.
_
It's perfectly possible that some reasonable grad stackable plastic chairs, along with some tiered platforms (IE Litedeck) which could be used both for seating or on stage, could be a great deal cheaper than a retractable seating; and more practical providing you can get some nice volunteer ushers who're happy to set the chairs and remove them for each show. You could also possibly store them off-site, somewhere cheaper like a self storage unit, and bring them in only as needed, so as not to occupy valuable space in the theatre.

But of course you can also consider the possibility of permanently installed seating. If you don't foresee a need to ever remove it, why design it to allow for that?


> -Soft goods



Sadly tabs, cloths etc are seldom available in good nick, second hand. Theatres tend to hold on to them for as long as possible as do event companies. There will always be jobs where they'd rather use their tatty old tabs than brand new ones, so they'll keep them for that. This might be an area you have to bite the bullet and go new. However, there have been some great prices online for molten felt, which is a fairly nice looking material and pretty efficient at masking. It can be had in most colours and in large pieces. Thomann in Europe were doing some great prices on it and it's well worth looking into.


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## Les (Feb 17, 2015)

de27192 said:


> $30k does not go that far. When you consider a fixed angle Source 4 comes in at about $1000...



Where are you buying Source Fours for $1,000? They're about $329 each here in the states (I believe the OP is in NYC). 

Good points on everything else though, especially when it comes to "rider friendliness". Within reason, you do want gear which people will be familiar with.


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## de27192 (Feb 18, 2015)

Les said:


> Where are you buying Source Fours for $1,000? They're about $329 each here in the states (I believe the OP is in NYC)




Is that new or used?? That is used price in the UK but new price is about £600-700 and that translates up to $1000 ish...


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## Les (Feb 18, 2015)

de27192 said:


> Is that new or used?? That is used price in the UK but new price is about £600-700 and that translates up to $1000 ish...



That's our new price. I saw a package of 4 on UsedLighting for $1200ish (USD) earlier today.


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## de27192 (Feb 18, 2015)

Les said:


> That's our new price. I saw a package of 4 on UsedLighting for $1200ish (USD) earlier today.



Not to drag this off topic but is used lighting not for used stuff? As I said $300 is not far off the mark for used S4s in the UK but not new...


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## Les (Feb 18, 2015)

de27192 said:


> Not to drag this off topic but is used lighting not for used stuff? As I said $300 is not far off the mark for used S4s in the UK but not new...



Source Four's seem to hold their value well around here. $300 used is not uncommon - rarely you will see the older generations going for a little over $200. Rarely, if ever, any less than that. 

Here is the best price I found through a quick Google search for a New Source Four:

http://www.stagelightingstore.com/E...ksA9g&utm_source=google&utm_campaign=products

Sorry for the hijack


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## garyvp (Feb 18, 2015)

HomeGrown said:


> Hello,
> 
> I am looking into converting a loft/ storefront space in NYC into a theatre space/ studio and was wondering what was involved/ what things I need to look into other than the obvious:
> 
> ...




Assuming you have long term intentions, forget the nuts and bolts above for the moment. In NYC you must first consider FDNY requirements, especially the need for a Public Assembly Permit - you need to ask a professional (architect) about this. If a PAP is needed it shall impose a raft of ripple requirements (sprinkler/alarms/emergency lighting/current electric code/seating/raiings/ etc) on the space. An expensive venture these days. Insurers probably will want one.


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