# Brand/mfg. of these lights?



## derekleffew (Oct 31, 2011)

*This question is open to EVERYONE, students, amateurs, and professionals.*




Who made these lights, and when? 

Some observations:
Two slightly different generations, but which is the newer/older?
The one on the left has a medium bipost socket (G22); the right a medium prefocus (P28s).
Red knobs?!
The distinctive body ventilation hole patterns.
Both units have a single plano convex lens, mounted curve out.


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## ScottT (Oct 31, 2011)

derekleffew said:


> Who made these lights, and when?


I'm going to guess either Altman or Lighting & Electronics. The "when" though is a lot tougher. Maybe the early 1980s or late 1970s?


derekleffew said:


> Two slightly different generations, but which is the newer/older?


See below.


derekleffew said:


> Red knobs?!


Aftermarket? They don't look like they've been through what the body of the fixture has.


derekleffew said:


> The distinctive ventilation hole pattern.


Is probably a result of the different manufacturing periods. To me the fixture that is closest to us (fixture 1) has the more efficient ventilation hole pattern meaning it would have been manufactured after the other fixture.


Got lamp specifications? That would (probably) help date it.


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## Nelson (Oct 31, 2011)

I don't have an answer, but because they are radial and used asbestos-covered wires without ground, I would say they are much older than 1970s/1980s.

Also, the fixture on the left appears to have an old-style Union Made sticker on the yoke. I haven't seen that style sticker on instruments made in the last 40 years or more.

I kind of like those red knobs/handles!


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## ScottT (Oct 31, 2011)

Nelson said:


> Also, the fixture on the left appears to have an old-style Union Made sticker on the yoke. I haven't seen that style sticker on instruments made in the last 40 years or more.



Good catch, didn't see that. 1950s-1970s then?


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## SteveB (Oct 31, 2011)

Possibly the answer is to be found in Derek's avatar ?.

EDIT: But I could be wrong. The fixtures look a whole lot like those found in the assorted on-line catalogs (company not named) that somebody scanned and posted. But almost and not exactly. The vent's are different as is the use of a PC lens, vs. a stepped lens. Another clue is the rust which means it isn't die-cast aluminum, but instead probably sheet steel. There was only one company (well 2 actually) that made stage lights out of sheet steel, that I've ever seen. The problem with my comment is it's very NY oriented, as in I've worked in the NYC area all my life and really have only been exposed to gear from the companies that existed in this area. So this could be a knock-off from a company that existed outside the NYC area. A lot of other manufacturers - Major comes to mind, never really sold much gear in this area, being a mid-west firm, thus you really only saw old gear from Capitol, Century, Kliegl and later Altman, in the NYC area. Other odd items and that lead me to question the manufacturer I think it is, is the red knobs as well as the big locking handle on the side. I've never seen that.

Something also to keep in mind is that fact that companies copied other gear to win a bid. Thus a smaller company like Major might well build a copy of a Kliegl or Century, or Altman might as well. The original State University of NY - Purchase theater had an inventory of Altman 360Q units, all made of sheet steel, as that's what was in the bid specifications, which was Kliegl. Altman, to my knowledge, never ever again built a 360Q out of sheet steel, as every 360Q you will ever see is cast aluminum.


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## jstandfast (Oct 31, 2011)

Looks to me as though with all the factors called out in other posts, we're looking at these things being made in the sixties sometime by some no name outfit trying to copy the physical profile of the then current Kliegl product. As posted above knowledge of the base involved would be telling; my bet would be medium Bi Post...... But those red knobs are ringing a bell somehow..........


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## ship (Nov 1, 2011)

Thanks Derek in posting this question and to all in thoughts so far.

Fixtures are mine (or at least Clyde Foster’s estate’s) and I have 18x of them that I’m cleaning up and selling off for a past TD’s estate. Ten of them directly copy at least in lamp copy in some ways the way the Kliegl #1365E from 1950 was done by way of G-22 socket and yoke retainer for the socket. Plus same brand of socket. 

Next lot - ten of them with spring clips, probably into the 60's for who ever made them was using the P-28s lamp socket and had a few refinements, but overall the same fixture. Good catch on the old verses newer style UL tags on both lot numbers also.

Red knobs are wood with brass inserts or screws dependant on male or female knob. Hub in published catalogue is for the most part crossed out - not similar in copied? Design or mostly just old resale gear, Major on the other hand I am initially thinking. 1959 while possible for a second generation for them in doing P-29s is the last date I have listed for them as a viable company. Also fits whithin a time line when Clyde was buying fixtures even used fixtures. 

Major??? Red knobs? Seen them before? Can do more photos.


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## SteveB (Nov 1, 2011)

That may well have been the shortest post by Ship I've ever seen. 

And I would also post, with photo's, over on the LightNetwork as there are a lot of older folks lurking there as well.


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## gafftapegreenia (Nov 1, 2011)

I know I've seen these in a school built in the 1960's. That had all 4 generations of their lighting still in use. 

I'm nearly positive its NOT Kliegl, as their literature doesn't show either those lamp caps or 

I'm thinking these are Century units as I've used old Century lights with that style handle and suitcase latch.


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## MPowers (Nov 1, 2011)

Don't think Century, fairly sure of that. Look like old Major or Lee. My guess is the one with the bi-post (not bi-pin as someone thought) is the older. Med Pre foc replaced bi-pin in the order of things...... for the most part.


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## ship (Nov 2, 2011)

MPowers said:


> Don't think Century, fairly sure of that. Look like old Major or Lee. My guess is the one with the bi-post (not bi-pin as someone thought) is the older. Med Pre foc replaced bi-pin in the order of things...... for the most part.



Agreed the P-28s later fixture has six screws mounting it's radial lamp snout casting instead of just four for the G-22 version. Same parts overall, and I think the G-22 socket would be an easily changed thing if only a small spacer needed under the socket picked up by bench focus room. There is still a G-22 based lamp available the EGN lamp, but it's only a 100 hour lamp and would need a 1/2" spacer under the socket designed for a 500T14/7 thus the G-22 version for this is a dead version. Many of these fixtures have the origional lamp so many won't be a problem hopefully in museum verses selling off. Viable the P-28s version - later but who would actively want to use them unless the most broke without lights. Not a good and even single lens reversed convex side out fixture even in the later version still copying the Kliegl light. Thoroughly obsolete no matter the brand. Can do a two lens train in replacing both but who would replace the lenses for like over $120.00 just in lenses? Obsolete and past up fixtures for historical value only.


Some back research onto the website in past postings about the "Grand Stage" Leko's and Fresnels. Believe it was Major that bought out the design for the fluited aluminum Leko's and Fresnels from Grand Stage. (Last big research project for me). Digging into a few years back. Possible in what I'm thinking, that these were say first and second generation "Leko" persay for Major and than in the later 60's they bought into the more modern Grand Stage design for such a thing? (Not sure where the four generations of Major Leko above is at but I'm interested in gaining that info on what they made.)

Penn State University in contacting them - research library is very helpful but don't really have lighting catalogues. Very helpfull though in quick response and forwarding to the theater by way of perhaps the TD has something TBA.

Very helpful. Scooby Doo Mystery hunt further... if perhaps major and time line of say between 1950 and say 58 for the first generation, when did Major come out with the fluited Leko version? Would meet at least an end time to the second generation of Leko I see assuming the same brand. Rough approximation of the 58' for end date for the G-22.


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## Les (Nov 2, 2011)

I think I'm going to take some vacation days and spend a week with Ship.


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## SteveB (Nov 4, 2011)

gafftapegreenia said:


> I'm nearly positive its NOT Kliegl, as their literature doesn't show either those lamp caps or
> 
> .



The 1950 Kliegl catalog shows the fixtures in the upper section of the page, the 1365 series, as having a capo design similar to the model in the OP photo, with a hinged bar and set screw to hold the cap in place. No Kliegl catalog I've see shows a suitcase style latch


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## ship (Nov 11, 2011)

SteveB said:


> The 1950 Kliegl catalog shows the fixtures in the upper section of the page, the 1365 series, as having a capo design similar to the model in the OP photo, with a hinged bar and set screw to hold the cap in place. No Kliegl catalog I've see shows a suitcase style latch



Not Kliegl... still thinking a Major copy. Lots also of the Kliegl above in collection also and clearly different brand. gafftapegreenia, would like to hear more as onto more of the fixtures, I do see a third and fourth lot type appearing in less notable parts used and replacement lenses potentially used, but also as replacement. Lens train spacer would easily support two lenses no matter how old the lot seen so far. So far only a single step lens in reverse (or normal position for them) normal position that would work but not be great in control, or two different thickness 6x9 lenses also reverse mounted that would work say for a 6x16 I remember the description of these fixtures by the owner while moving them from one storage location to another years ago. Just not good control.

Damaged / ground a little at the male and female red knobs tonight, they are plastic I think - like phoenic type plastic. Noted a lack of spring tensioning on the sutters to the ones worked on tonight - something like a McMaster Carr .... (part number at work). Ball bearing spring tensioned within an assembly that fits into the gate casting. Later models have them, first one I saw was missing it and later forms worked on don't have it. TBA that part number as it would be a good solution for loose shutters in general for any Leko. Still though, lot numbers are seen in differences but would like more info from gafftapegreenia on the four types he saw.


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## ship (Nov 19, 2011)

Thanks to Derek and his work with other theater websites (primarily the SML), we have an answer to the later model and thru deductive reasoning, a part number and confirmed answer also to the older one also.

The older model with the holes on the lamp cap instead of crossed slot is probably a mid to late 1950's “LECO” Lighting Equipment Company #810. 

(Nameplate from a 1967 dimmer/patch panel installation, not from a fixture.)

The other early to later 1960's fixture is the same but a model #1700 from them. Both are very similar and should be step lens in like a 6x16 beam angle as told of by the original owner before he passed, but there is differences in say bent shutters for retention verses spring tensioners on the later versions. That plus different lamp types and other details. There is four lot types that I see of these fixtures given a few the past owner had in collection that I’m working on.

These two main models with bleed in details are also thought to be the first real ERSs by LECO and the previous step before the fluted ERS/Fresnel when Major bought out LECO in the later 60's and introduced after buying out the Grand Stage Lighting design for that light the fluted versions popular in this forum's discussions ( http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/lighting-electrics/10595-who-heck-made-these-fixtures-quest.html ). Major later combined with Hub and survived until this past year in repairing old gear in its last sense.

Important thing also noted is the “LECO” stamp on parts be it the fluted ERSs and Fresnels - age thing in if no stamps of LECO on the clamps or knobs, it could be earlier. Details details in dating fixtures amongst lots of them in the Grand Stage version of the fluted Leko or Fresnel would be more rare.

Now a time line figured out at least given two unidentified in who made them fixtures. These were the forerunner to the fluted ERS from that brand as it changed. This in figuring out history not thru history presented, but lore and notes. Thanks again Derek for your work on this project.

Also shows a huge gap in theater lighting history. Back when I was Marine Artillery - I could name and place just about any cannon back to the 1600's approximately with that gear in the last century easier to figure out. Lighting gear not even 100 years old - stuff that is only like 50 or so years old... almost gone in history at this point. Not just the lights but the history behind them is going soon. These were from my home TD's personal collection. Stopped working at that company and fell out of touch and writing down that history passed down. Now faced with repairing his lights and figuring out what they are, wish I had learned more and been ready to retain that info.

Sampling of what ain't written down or in the _Photometrics Handbook_ amongst a lot of gear not in it. Lots else out there and just as little as you remember like them step lensed fixtures being like a 6x16 in beam angle - this in having used them was useful. What I didn't remember was the brand and other history passed on. That was in the 90's and write down your history type era in that TD not going anywhere soon thus no rush. Gone now and his own history - and passed on from others gone.


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## esmphoto (Nov 23, 2011)

Haha, I don't know who made them or when, but I do Know there are about 40 of them rusting away as doorstops in the labyrinth of semi-abandoned basement directly underneath my office. (left over from our renovation, three or four years ago, before my time)
cool in any case.

(I do know i am a little late btw, still cool  )


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## Les (Nov 23, 2011)

esmphoto said:


> Haha, I don't know who made them or when, but I do Know there are about 40 of them rusting away as doorstops in the labyrinth of semi-abandoned basement directly underneath my office. (left over from our renovation, three or four years ago, before my time)
> cool in any case.
> 
> (I do know i am a little late btw, still cool  )



Cool, I'll be down next week to pick them up


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## ship (Nov 24, 2011)

Les said:


> Cool, I'll be down next week to pick them up



Derek with the help of other websites and deductive reasoning has confirmed them LECO as company. Lighting Equipment Company - LECO, not LEKO!!! As expressed but possibly part of a marketing plan early on in selling them.

Believe the inter forum discussion on these lights is satisfied with it of that brand and there being two main versions of them a #1700 with P-28s base and spring clips for the lamp housing identified, and given the castings a deductive reasoned #810 vesion with a P-22 socket with yoke retention for the lamp housing.

Four versions of them but mostly fitting into the spring clip (later) or yoke retaining (earlier) version as general version. Some bleed on details.

Road trip!!! Boat anchor, door stop...

A shame the door stop or boat anchor concept in that if not for one’s own museum, samples of gear to teach classes with about how lights work and the history, at least money could be raised by selling the gear off to a good home. On the other hand, at least in the catacombs or basement in stored gear as opposed to scrap yard or as I have seen, in the back of a scrapper pickum up truck on the way to be scrapped and too late to stop it.


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## derekleffew (Dec 2, 2011)

Well, today was just like Xmas in ... December !:) when two of the aforementioned fixtures arrived. The smiles of joy on the children's faces as they caroled  gave me such a warm feeling inside (might have been heartburn--Erick cooked last night).

Some observations:
If there was ever any doubt as to the manufacturer,

stamped on the aluminum tilt-lock tee handle is "LECO 7A-101".


The infamous c-clamp saying "LECO--C803". Not a spelling error; it's supposed to be that way! As I've said before, if encountering one of these clamps, use caution; as later they were found to have had a run of bad castings with voids not noticeable until failure.


Both of my fixtures (nearly identical to those in post#1) have the G22 *socket* and thus use lamps with the medium bi-post *base*. I'd forgotten how nice the T14 lamp is; considering the last time I changed one was the summer of 1982 in the Red Garter Saloon at Cedar Point, Ohio. Interesting that one of the huge, honking (for 500W) pins shows quite a bit of pitting/corrosion and the socket shows signs of over-heating also. There's something poetic about a lamp darkening, and thus becoming dimmer, with age/use. 

Even though mine came with a single PC lens, we suspect they originally "featured" a step lens. Both fixtures have a single-flatted reflector, so I can't wait to fire it up and see the bullseye target pattern it produces on stage.

Rest assured ship, the fixtures will receive a prominent home in my garage, as soon as I get around to hanging another piece of unistrut.


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## ship (Dec 2, 2011)

Some observations:
If there was ever any doubt as to the manufacturer, like yea and I have another for you to figure out if easy.
Unistrut in your garage???

I have a 1.1/2" Sch. 40 steel pipe and DexTron grid in mine. Glad you like them in as per e-mail, there is other versions and lots more to discuss of this era. One so far I owe you but which version.

Perhaps time to change this post type to the lighting forum part of the forum. Edit as you want my email on what’s left from latest Clyde’s lights and other gear and transfers to selling them off as wanted for antique in helping sell the historic TD’s lights off.

Anyway, I’m all over getting done Clyde’s lights this weekend and ASAP. Got a load of c.1911 or before gear coming in next week that needs my attention. That plus the stuff under the work table that’s prime in stuff I don’t have and need to get done.

Museum in one of each for collection I think will soon be the largest collection of stage lighting anywhere. Just need a month or two to present all and go thru work in moving the past 70' long pipe with 16" on center fixtures over and under hung to one that’s one more museum presentable in say one that’s rigged and at least 120' long. Lots at work about the museum in the works also for now that we have like 40x more lights to add to the museum... where are we gonna put them and or how are we able to present them for tours. Kind of glad that ETC is buying the c.1948 George Izenour Light Board and Dimmers - while I had approval to buy them, wouldn’t be correct in other than ETC displaying it or the other elder light boards. Much less, like them... we have no room for such gear but ETC has enough non-display in collection, at some point they will open up another building I think for museum. In our case... fighting for space and such gear would be stored but not room to display. Hard enough to display what we are acquiring.


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## josh88 (Dec 2, 2011)

the good news is the Red Garter has updated their lighting inventory since then, though they've still got the original saloon lights above and behind the bar.


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## ship (Dec 5, 2011)

By the way, I pulled all lights this past week and found two things about the fixtures. First, all but the Kliegl #1365 had a 6x9 or perhaps a bid wider focus PC lens. Unless another source has step lenses in their 807, 7A (as new version found), or #1700 LECO lights, they are all PC lenses in them.

Also, it would seem there was a choice of P-22s (Bi-Pin) or P-28s (Medium Pre-focus) for lamp type during the at least early 60's versions of the #1700 series. Of thirteen lamp caps brought home last week, five were P-28s, the others G-22. (Like the G-22 type of socket also though more effected by heat in some ways.) The P-28s lamp sockets had the newer X-slot cooling vent design, the older ones were a bit more tall and used for all intensive purposes the #807 hole pattern for cooling.

Also found in the collection is three fixtures with the exact same lamp cap - all with a P-28s lamp socket. So simialr, I cannot tell who made which lamp cap. Of the other fixtures were two Kliegl #1365E as similar to the one already in collection, two Hub #8764 with PC lens and six unknown but similar to both fixtures that the more I work on are possibly the first Altman fixture, or perhaps Century. Almost all knobs/parts on them are the ones Altman used in the 360 series, yet it's for all intensive purposes a Kliegl design. Derek will soon be getting one to study and ask further questions about.


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