# What to do with a cyc and no fly space.



## Lightitup (Sep 18, 2017)

I have so far taken it down after each show and hanging it for the shows that need it. This takes forever. Can anyone suggest something that would allow me to keep it hung even for shows where I don't need it?


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## MNicolai (Sep 18, 2017)

You could add a curtain track to that pipe and instead of using rigid weight pipes could go with a chain or weight tape hem. Then you can more freely bunch the cyc up on either SL or SR. May have to send the cyc out to get a new hem put on it though. Also, if you can't raise the pipe trim another 9" or so, you may need to raise the hem on the cyc to account for the added height of the track.

Depending on how wide the cyc is, you may or may not be able to convert it into an olio. The wider it is, the harder this is to do though.


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## RonHebbard (Sep 18, 2017)

Lightitup said:


> I have so far taken it down after each show and hanging it for the shows that need it. This takes forever. *Can anyone suggest something that would allow me to keep it hung even for shows where I don't need it?*


 @Lightitup Shooting every kid that comes within a hundred feet of it is the first thing that comes to mind.
The cleaner, better, and more blemish-free the cyc' the more it invites people with dirty, sticky fingers plus open beverage containers.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.


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## Van (Sep 18, 2017)

Your other option would be to attempt to make it into a Roll drop.
The major drawback being that you would always have the bottom of the cyc a few inches off the floor. and wrinkles


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## BillConnerFASTC (Sep 18, 2017)

Straight or curved? Soft or rigid at bottom? Would raising it in half - raising bottom hem to approx same height as top hem - be out of the way enough? 

If it were new or if it doesn't require re-hemmimg it, and you have a little wing space, track is the best answer. Get a "bag" to slip around bottom 6-8' too protect the stack.

If the bottom has or could easily have a rigid batten in it, consider a system of lift lines - nearly like an awning - that lifts bottom to top. This can be done with a chain hem but not as neat.

Roll drops are great - if straight - but usually not inexpensive. I guess Van is looking at bottom roller, and not a bad idea - if you can live with roller at bottom and attachment doesn't eat too much existing height.


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## TheaterEd (Sep 18, 2017)

We just have a full black traveler mounted DS of our Cyc. Get's the job done and hides the cyc. And when that won't cut it, the cyc is also hung on a curtain track so we can drop the pipe out and move it off to one side.

Taking it down between shows sounds crazy to me. Can you not just leave it in place as a backdrop? With limited lighting options for band concerts, I love having the cyc to help mix things up. I even light it up with the choral shells in front of it to let some color bleed through from the back. But yeah, when the band is on stage practicing I have the black upstage traveler pulled to avoid the sticky fingers.

Oh, and just to avoid confusion. Yes Bill, what we actually have should be referred to as a 'sky drop' since it is not curved. That being said, I don't know of any place in my area that has a proper cyclorama and that term is way more fun to teach, so I persist. If OP actually has a curved cyc, then I've got nothing.


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## sk8rsdad (Sep 18, 2017)

RonHebbard said:


> @Lightitup Shooting every kid that comes within a hundred feet
> Toodleoo!
> Ron Hebbard.


I'd be worried about blood splatter. A taser might be a better choice.


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## RonHebbard (Sep 18, 2017)

sk8rsdad said:


> I'd be worried about blood splatter. A taser might be a better choice.


 @sk8rsdad I'll concur so long as they don't collapse into the cyc' and powder burns don't become a factor. Possibly we could include a a laser vaporizing beam to shorten any taller intruders should they topple perilously close? Cut 'em off at the knees on their way down. Granted. the bigger they are but I'm not recalling any rules about shortening them a little. Perhaps @derekleffew will have a comment to contribute?
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Sep 18, 2017)

TheaterEd said:


> Yes Bill, what we actually have should be referred to as a 'sky drop' since it is not curved.



I only asked straight or curved. Roll drop concepts are tough with curved.


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## TheaterEd (Sep 19, 2017)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> I only asked straight or curved. Roll drop concepts are tough with curved.


Just giving you a hard time Bill. I seem to recall it used to be a pet peeve of yours

BillConnerFASTC said:


> cyc or cyclorama and sky drop - a pet peeve - but a cyc is curved



That being said, I would be VERY interested in how a curved roll drop works.


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## RonHebbard (Sep 19, 2017)

TheaterEd said:


> Just giving you a hard time Bill. I seem to recall it used to be a pet peeve of yours
> 
> 
> That being said, I would be* VERY* interested in how a curved roll drop works.


 @TheaterEd Ahh! Then clearly you've led a sheltered life "Near Milwaukee".


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## Skervald (Sep 19, 2017)

One space I work in had a similar problem. I convinced them to install a track (or horizontal fly system as I like to call it) which works pretty well. Of course, you need to add a pipe in the bottom which adds an extra step to deploying it but it's much easier than taking it down and putting it up. We do have a protective wrap for it and so far, it's stayed fairly clean. I've often dreamed about something like this: http://www.rosebrand.com/subcategory758/dmx-roll-drum.aspx which may be an option for you depending on how wide your drop is. I guess it does bring up the debate about whether or not DMX control should be used in a situation like this but I hope that doesn't hijack this thread!

I'll also second @TheaterEd's desire to see how a curved roll drop works.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Sep 19, 2017)

I saw some pretty impressive home made top roller units. Operated manually - like a chain on a rolling door - and made of aluminum irrigation pipe. They both had a roller support at center which can of course cause a problem. I think these were used for painted drops so it was fine for one show, then repainted or replaced.

I've never seen a curved roll drop. I asked if it was straight or curved so I would know if roller was a suitable route. And since many cycloramas are (or were) also curved in section as well as plan, it would be especially difficult to roll, particularly if made of plaster.


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## BSchend (Sep 19, 2017)

The theater were I do sets also has this same issue. A fabric cyc (or is it sky drop since it's not curved) is dead hung at the rear of the stage. 38' wide by 25' tall. It has a solid pipe in the bottom pocket that rests on the floor and the fabric is tensioned laterally by line through grommets which are attached to two solid pipes running vertically on either side of the cyc. There is no fly system in the theater (nor height for one)

Now of course the basic issue is that you don't want anyone putting a hole in this massive bit of fabric or paint splatter, which has happened on several occasions. The additional fun variable is that directly behind the cyc is the platform/flat/set piece storage for the theater. This space is 8' 6" behind the cyc. That means there is a 4' 6" to jockey a 4x8 platform into position for storage. As you can imagine this gets pretty sketchy and there have been many close calls.

Along the lines with what everyone else has said, would it be possible to use vertical track along the sides to attach to instead of the vertical pipe, thus the drop would always stay tensioned laterally and could just be pulled upward like blinds? Any wrinkling from the bunching should be minimized by the lateral pull as well as the pipe in the bottom pocket. Correct or am I missing some detail?


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## Van (Sep 19, 2017)

Bill has a Pet peeve about Cyc's? I have a freakin' issue with the term. In my new position I see the term "Cyc curtain" used so often for an upstage-most walk-draw or cord op curtain with fullness sewn in of any color of style of fabric... It's maddening. From my original comments on @derekleffew 's definition of "Cyclorama" in the Wikki:

"Technically a true Cyc is considered to be a 3 sided soft good hanging in the uppermost area backstage. Traditionally the three sided-ness was achieved using a special rigging connector called a "cyc-knuckle" this allowed the center, straight across the stage section, to be lifted first letting the outside edges to collapse so that the entire unit would be drawn up into the space of a single batten. This was required since the outside < off-stage> edges of a "real cyc" would often curve downstage as much as 6 ft or more. Traditionally cycs are white, or raw muslin colored, more often they are water stained and an aged yellowish color, which often leads to them getting painted a nice cerulean blue which magically transforms them into " Sky Cycs". Again I am being extremely technical here in stating the traditional differences. Sky drops and Back drops are completely flat goods which stretch the width of the stage the primary difference between the two being that a Sky drop typically starts it's life as a white backdrop that gets old and then someone has the bright idea of painting it blue. Please for the love of God do not paint clouds on a blue Sky drop. Use the appropriate gobo from Apollo."


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## seanandkate (Sep 19, 2017)

Van said:


> Please for the love of God do not paint clouds on a blue Sky drop. Use the appropriate gobo from Apollo.



Thanks for my smile for the day Van.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Sep 19, 2017)

Bshend - just lifting the bottom pipe to trip it should give you adequate clearance and not introduce wrinkles. You'd only have to remove half the side ties.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Sep 19, 2017)

I'm good with Google:

- a circular picture of a 360° scene, viewed from inside.
- a cloth stretched tight in an arc around the back of a stage set, often used to depict the sky

And the three different ones I worked with were indeed plaster, and curved in both section and plan. Just about like Google says.

No wonder we have fake news when anyone feels entitled to change definitions and mis-lable things.


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## Skervald (Sep 20, 2017)

I can't even begin the sky drop vs. cyc debate at work. I've got a core group of people (who should all know better) who consistently call our sky drop a scrim. I'm not sure where that came from or how it started but it's infuriating.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Sep 20, 2017)

At least they dont confuse it with a tormentor, whatever that is.


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## RickR (Sep 20, 2017)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> At least they dont confuse it with a tormentor, whatever that is.


You're such a Teaser!


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## Skervald (Sep 20, 2017)

RickR said:


> You're such a Teaser!



That was border-line bad humor but a grand attempt.


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## kicknargel (Sep 20, 2017)

This thread sure has legs?

re: roll drop / olio: If you're only using it for storage purposes, you could add one or more detachable lines in the middle of the goods, that attach at the grid, run under the roll tube, then back up to a pulley. This would eliminate the need for the tube to support its own weight from only the ends, creating more affordable options.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Sep 20, 2017)

Bottom roller is supported continous by the drop. Ropes at end only make it roll, not support tube. Top roller is supported only at ends.


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## RonHebbard (Sep 20, 2017)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> Bottom roller is supported continuous by the drop. Ropes at end only make it roll, not support tube. Top roller is supported only at ends.


@BillConnerFASTC *Let's quibble.* Bottom roller is ideally supported by the drop once it's reached its lower end of travel. I proffer the bottom roller is only supported by its ends while the drop is at its high trim and while it's being rolled either up or down.
Comments?
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Sep 20, 2017)

Empirically, they dont sag when up. I believe the load is spread out throughout travel. I use to specify manual botyom roller projection screens, and the roller remained very straight.

Test it with a strip of fabric, stapled to a biard and a dowel. Roll up, pull on ends of dowel without alowing it to unroll. I think the fabric will not yield and apply pressure along the dowel.


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## RonHebbard (Sep 20, 2017)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> Empirically, they don't sag when up. I believe the load is spread out throughout travel. I used to specify manual bottom roller projection screens, and the roller remained very straight.
> 
> Test it with a strip of fabric, stapled to a *biard* and a dowel. Roll up, pull on ends of dowel without allowing it to unroll. I think the fabric will not yield and apply pressure along the dowel.


 @BillConnerFASTC * Pardon my ignorance but what's a "biard"?*
From Google: 
*Search Results*
*Biard - Wikipedia*
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biard
Biard is a commune in the Vienne department in the Nouvelle-Aquitaine region in western France, in the Boivre valley. A suburb of Poitiers, Biard gives its name ...
*Tex Biard - Wikipedia*
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tex_Biard
Captain Forrest R. "Tex" Biard was an American linguist in the U.S. Navy code breaking organization during the Second World War. A pre-war student of ...
*Biard LED - Biard Innovations*
www.biardinnovations.com/biard-led/
Lighting by Biard LED is created to be easy to install, attractive, cost effective and long lasting. Discover LED products that include accessories to complement ...
*Images for biard*

Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.

BillConnerFASTC said:


> Empirically, they don't sag when up. I believe the load is spread out throughout travel. I use to specify manual bottom roller projection screens, and the roller remained very straight.
> 
> Test it with a strip of fabric, stapled to a *biard* and a dowel. Roll up, pull on ends of dowel without allowing it to unroll. I think the fabric will not yield and apply pressure along the dowel.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Sep 20, 2017)

Board. Fat fingers. Little keyboard. O is next to I.


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## What Rigger? (Sep 21, 2017)

Skervald said:


> One space I work in had a similar problem. I convinced them to install a track (or horizontal fly system as I like to call it) which works pretty well. Of course, you need to add a pipe in the bottom which adds an extra step to deploying it but it's much easier than taking it down and putting it up. We do have a protective wrap for it and so far, it's stayed fairly clean. I've often dreamed about something like this: http://www.rosebrand.com/subcategory758/dmx-roll-drum.aspx which may be an option for you depending on how wide your drop is. I guess it does bring up the debate about whether or not DMX control should be used in a situation like this but I hope that doesn't hijack this thread!
> 
> I'll also second @TheaterEd's desire to see how a curved roll drop works.



I'll give a thumbs up to this. Have never had an enjoyable olio experience.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Sep 22, 2017)

On a track, different means to stretch the top taut, depending how far off stage the short side must travel, hand line sag, budget, etc. Kind of nice to be able to pull it taut easily from the floor. A chain in bottom has worked with a couple fasteners, avoiding pipe.


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## DRU (Sep 22, 2017)

What Rigger? said:


> I'll give a thumbs up to this. Have never had an enjoyable olio experience.



I worked in a theater with four olio systems. They can be awkward, I confess, but there is an elegance to the simplicity of the system. Just don't get a table caught in one....


BillConnerFASTC said:


> Empirically, they dont sag when up. I believe the load is spread out throughout travel. I use to specify manual botyom roller projection screens, and the roller remained very straight.
> 
> Test it with a strip of fabric, stapled to a biard and a dowel. Roll up, pull on ends of dowel without alowing it to unroll. I think the fabric will not yield and apply pressure along the dowel.



Mine did have a very slight sag at times, but that was often because of not attaching the center of the drop to the roller correctly. Also, when storing empty when not in use, they would sag in the middle due to only be supported on the ends. And I did not leave it sagging and held up by the ropes only; I chained each end and the center to the grid.


RonHebbard said:


> @BillConnerFASTC *Let's quibble.* Bottom roller is ideally supported by the drop once it's reached its lower end of travel. I proffer the bottom roller is only supported by its ends while the drop is at its high trim and while it's being rolled either up or down.




BillConnerFASTC said:


> Bottom roller is supported continous by the drop. Ropes at end only make it roll, not support tube. Top roller is supported only at ends.



In my experience, while going up, staying up, and going down, both the drop and the rope are supporting the weight of the bottom roller. It is only when the bottom roller is on the ground did either item go slack.


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## kicknargel (Oct 2, 2017)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> Bottom roller is supported continous by the drop. Ropes at end only make it roll, not support tube. Top roller is supported only at ends.



That was my theory way back in the day when I made one way too big (50' wide) on an 8" pvc pipe with inner 1x stiffeners. Sagged like crazy, and I had to add a removable center rope. 

Picture this: the roller tube is very heavy and not very stiff. It's weight is on the floor. When you start pulling the lines, it will want to pick up the ends first and make a smile in the tube. Not until the stiffness of the tube is enough to get the center off the floor will the rolling action kick in.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Oct 2, 2017)

I think you have to attach and roll up before hanging, and plan to have at least two to three full wraps on the roller at all times.


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## DRU (Dec 20, 2017)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> I think you have to attach and roll up before hanging, and plan to have at least two to three full wraps on the roller at all times.



I always hung the drop first, attached it to the roller on the deck, wrapped the ropes, then pulled tension on the ropes, and tested. The drops were 1'-2' longer than the height deck to grid, so when they wrapped up on the tube, there was enough on the tube to not worry about it coming off. By myself, took an hour to hang a drop and rig it.


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## Kurt (Feb 22, 2020)

I've got a similar issue on my hands. We have a 43' fly, but our cyc and scrim are both 29' high. Unfortunately, due to having only 19 linesets, we don't have the option to trip anything. Ideally we would just want to shorten both of them just enough to match where our borders sit, around 20'. I haven't found many good resources on properly doing this, and I can't imagine it would be possible to hem the scrim in house. Does anyone here have any experience in soft good alterations?


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## Jay Ashworth (Feb 22, 2020)

RonHebbard said:


> @Lightitup Shooting every kid that comes within a hundred feet of it is the first thing that comes to mind.
> The cleaner, better, and more blemish-free the cyc' the more it invites people with dirty, sticky fingers plus open beverage containers.
> Toodleoo!
> Ron Hebbard.


We had a 60 year old bass player fall into ours a couple weeks ago.

And we *do* have a full loft to fly it into, so we were understandably pissed.

Most of it has hung out by now.


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## RonHebbard (Feb 22, 2020)

Jay Ashworth said:


> We had a 60 year old bass player fall into ours a couple weeks ago.
> 
> And we *do* have a full loft to fly it into, so we were understandably pissed.
> 
> Most of it has hung out by now.


 *@Jay Ashworth * If you'd flown your bass player out to 48' and his double bass to 58', you'dve still had 2' for over travel and minimized your problems; keep in mind AF of M rules for oxygen masks, seat belts, diapers and emergency escape slides /n shutes. The wrinkles may have hung out of your bass player by now as well. *@derekleffew* and *@TimMc* Care to comment?*?*
Toodleoo! 
Ron Hebbard


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## TimMc (Feb 22, 2020)

"There was something fishy about the bass player, probably a Pisces, playing for scale." _ The Fire Sign Theater, with modifications.


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## Aaron Clarke (Feb 24, 2020)

Kurt said:


> I've got a similar issue on my hands. We have a 43' fly, but our cyc and scrim are both 29' high. Unfortunately, due to having only 19 linesets, we don't have the option to trip anything. Ideally we would just want to shorten both of them just enough to match where our borders sit, around 20'. I haven't found many good resources on properly doing this, and I can't imagine it would be possible to hem the scrim in house. Does anyone here have any experience in soft good alterations?



I wouldn't be to off put on re hemming the length yourself. I took this on this past summer to take the rip out of an old "cyc" and make it into our newest painted drop. Get day with the entire stage clear and cleaned, lay it out flat and straight. Measure and mark your fold and sewing lines. I used a chalk line but then paint was meeting mine soon. Then triple checked for straight lines and squareness. Then Triple check the triple check. Finally take to the scissors, I mad my folds with iron in hand light locking the various folds of the hem with each path. If your not sure how to hem, just dissect the only hem for a mock up. Now, time to sew: I took sewing machine, plugged a long extension cord to it, set it on a board on a nice set of small casters allowing me to move the machine and not the fabric across the stage.

I'm sure some people far smarter and experienced can give some additional suggestions and I believe there are some existing threads I took tips off of. In short, you can do it!

Edit- I was really nervous, but it turned out to be a far easier process than I thought. This summer- velour!


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## kicknargel (Feb 25, 2020)

Hemming is probably better but you could also build a trip system with pulleys and ropes on the same lineset that carries the goods. There are even ways to "auto-trip" so that the tripping action happens as the lineset is flown.


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