# Flying 50 amp cable in gym



## Saber (Mar 21, 2012)

I spoke with a rigger and he gave me a bs answer (u dont have the insurance an you cant aford it) so here i am. I was wondering what regulations or rules i should be aware of if i wanted to fly a 50 amp power cable from the roof of a gym and drop it down on a stage in the center. Id probably use 3 beam clamps and nessesary hardware to hold the cable. The roof consists of large steel h beams so the weight of a cable wont be a problem(considering ive seen an h truss setup with 20 movers hanging from it.) 

The reason i want to do this is so that we can get the cable off the floor so the kids wont trip during the dance.


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## rochem (Mar 21, 2012)

Saber said:


> I spoke with a rigger and he gave me a bs answer (u dont have the insurance an you cant aford it) so here i am. I was wondering what regulations or rules i should be aware of if i wanted to fly a 50 amp power cable from the roof of a gym and drop it down on a stage in the center. Id probably use 3 beam clamps and nessesary hardware to hold the cable. The roof consists of large steel h beams so the weight of a cable wont be a problem(considering ive seen an h truss setup with 20 movers hanging from it.)
> 
> The reason i want to do this is so that we can get the cable off the floor so the kids wont trip during the dance.



While this doesn't sound like an inherently bad idea, the rigger is actually there on-site and may have seen other factors which you haven't told us about, so I'm not going to suggest other methods. However, that being said, a single 50A cable is not very heavy, and assuming you have proper rigging hardware and can ensure that the cable won't break or fall or start swinging unexpectedly, this might be a manageable solution.


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## museav (Mar 21, 2012)

Saber said:


> I spoke with a rigger and he gave me a bs answer (u dont have the insurance an you cant aford it) so here i am. I was wondering what regulations or rules i should be aware of if i wanted to fly a 50 amp power cable from the roof of a gym and drop it down on a stage in the center.


If you don't already know the answers then how can you be sure their response was "a bs answer"? As far as what regulations and rules may apply, will this be a temporary or permanent, say more than 30 day, installation? A permanent installation may have quite different considerations as to how the work must be performed and who can perform it. And along those lines, what are you connecting to at both ends and how would they be terminated? Are you a licensed Electrical Contractor?


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## Saber (Mar 21, 2012)

This would be a one day thing. This particular operation has been done before. The guy just doesnt want me to do it because im beginning to compete with him. And im only competeing with him because every time i ask "how much it cost" he replies "you canot afford." lol.

So, for a simple operation like this, thr only thing i have to worry about is liability?


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## Edrick (Mar 21, 2012)

How are you competing with him? Why not bring in another rigger? It's possible that you really can't afford it. If he's an actual rigger and you're just in a school and are wanting to hang all sorts of things maybe you really can't safely and cheaply?


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## Saber (Mar 21, 2012)

Im trying to rent beam clams from him so i can hang, a fifty amp cable over the floor and drop it down on the center of the floor where my stage will be. That way i have power to dj and the cable doesnt run accross the floor and cause a trip hazzaed and/or look really bad. 3 clamps, nylon loops to hold the cable, and attatched to one beam. Simple, quick, and easy. What i am asking for is there any good reason i shouldnt do this? Like: you have to have a certification? This has been done bedfore at previous dances there. The guy i asked just doesnt want to deal with it. I know him well, and he obviously doesnt care.


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## FMEng (Mar 21, 2012)

Not BS. Whether it is easy, safe to do and legal is somewhat irrelevant. If you go hanging anything overhead, cable or otherwise, most facilities would require you to have liability insurance for that kind of work. You obviously don't have it, and it is expensive. That's one of the reasons he is in business and his rates are set so that he can pay that big insurance bill and still make some money.

If I were a rigger, I sure would not rent hardware to anyone. The right hardware is still dangerous if not used correctly. If he rents to you and you kill someone using his hardware, the lawyers will come after him just as much as you.

Your best solution would be to hire the rigger to hang the cable.


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## Saber (Mar 21, 2012)

Insurance is something i am working on getting, i have a few quotes already. I really cant get anywhere if no one gives out info. What i dont know, is the legality of it, so i am asking.


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## rochem (Mar 21, 2012)

Saber said:


> Insurance is something i am working on getting, i have a few quotes already. I really cant get anywhere if no one gives out info. What i dont know, is the legality of it, so i am asking.



According to the letter of the law, no, there is no certification required to hang something over people's heads. In fact, the only certification that exists at all is an ETCP certification, which I believe is not recognized by any levels of government. There are, however, laws covering manslaughter and other similar ideas which could come into play if someone is injured or killed as a result of your lack of proper training. Not to mention the endless possibilities of civil courts.


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## museav (Mar 21, 2012)

rochem said:


> According to the letter of the law, no, there is no certification required to hang something over people's heads. In fact, the only certification that exists at all is an ETCP certification, which I believe is not recognized by any levels of government.


Maybe, but maybe not. The basic issue is not removing the potential trip hazard only to create a different potential hazard and there may indeed be local ordinances relating to temporary electrical service that reference NEC, NFPA, IFC or similar resources. In those you may find comments or requirements such as the following from the 2009 International Fire Code:


> 605.5 Extension cords. Extension cords and flexible cords shall not be a substitute for permanent wiring.
> Extension cords and flexible cords shall not be affixed to structures, extended through walls, ceilings or floors,
> or under doors or floor coverings, nor shall such cords be subject to environmental damage or physical impact.
> Extension cords shall be used only with portable appliances.




> 605.9 Temporary wiring. Temporary wiring for electrical power and lighting installations is allowed for a
> period not to exceed 90 days. Temporary wiring methods shall meet the applicable provisions of the ICC
> Electrical Code.




> 605.9.1 Attachment to structures. Temporary wiring attached to a structure shall be attached in
> an approved manner.



As you can see, one potential issue in that case would be that you may not be able to attach an 'extension cord' to the structure and any wiring attached to the structure may have to be treated as permanent wiring, unless it is attached in an approved manner.


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## gafftapegreenia (Mar 21, 2012)

Well if you don't have the liability insurance to cover rigging why not some yellow jacket style cable guards?


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## mstaylor (Mar 21, 2012)

Not to be a pain but beam clamps can't be attached the H beams, they can be attached to I beams. Not knowing the difference is a good reason not to do things you aren't trained for. Now what you want to do is a simple thing to do, from your description, but there may be things we don't know. Why is the rigger unwilling to simply do the job himself? Can you take some pictures so we can see if there is something you aren't explaining correctly.


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## emac (Mar 21, 2012)

Something I have not heard said:
How are you getting up to the height at which your installing the cable? How high are you going?


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## avkid (Mar 21, 2012)

mstaylor said:


> Not to be a pain but beam clamps can't be attached the H beams, they can be attached to I beams.


 Doesn't it depend almost entirely on the flange width of the H beam?


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## Synchronize (Mar 21, 2012)

avkid said:


> Doesn't it depend almost entirely on the flange width of the H beam?



I think it depends more on the type of beam clamp in question. Whether the OP is talking about 

this type of beam clamp 
or 


this type of beam clamp. 
Obviously, the first would not work very well on H steel.

Either way, I personally would not use beam clamps. I don't feel comfortable making rigging recommendations without seeing the venue, but if the rigger thought it was as easy as hanging beam clams, he probably would have quoted you for hanging beam clamps.


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## MPowers (Mar 21, 2012)

mstaylor said:


> Not to be a pain but beam clamps can't be attached the H beams, they can be attached to I beams. ...........



I don't quite understand why you would say that. I've been clamping to H beams, H beam products, buy H beam products from alibaba.com or prime hot rolled steel H BEAM products, buy prime hot rolled steel H BEAM products from alibaba.com as well as W and I for years. The lindaptor type work fine,



 



 
lick on the main image to enlarge it


The Screw adjustable type shown above work fine, this type One Ton Beam Clamps works just fine, There are other type such as the Clancy beam clamp

Beam Clamps - Beam Clamps Rigging - I Beam Clamps

Beam Clamps work just fine on an H beam, if you have the right size and type for your application.


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## derekleffew (Mar 21, 2012)

Since I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one: 
What is the difference between H-beam and I-beam ? - Yahoo! Answers India

EDIT: India? 
-----

Saber, Can you not get all the way around the beam? How high off the floor is the beam? How far along the beam does the cable have to go? Is the cable 6/4, 6/5 SO, or other? Someone else asked: Access? Manlift, scaffold, ladder, climb the beam, or other?

I suspect there's more to it than "the rigger just doesn't want to do it."


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## Saber (Mar 21, 2012)

The guy doesnt take anything seriously if he thinks it wont be a big profit and he just gives some bs answer of why u cant do it. Like "you cant afford it"

Ive delt with him many times before and frankly, i just am tired of his bs so i wont try and help his buisness out anymore. 
And... Id be using the "claw" type clamp posted by synchronize. And poliester loops to hold the cable

**** edit ****

@derek beams are about thirty feet above the ground and fifty feet acrross, id have to go 25 feet down the length from one wall and id be using a scissor lift to get up there. Cable is 6/4 i believe


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## porkchop (Mar 21, 2012)

IF! I was going to do what you're talking about I'd probably just get a spanset long enough to wrap around the beam and scrap the beam clamp all together. That being said my understanding is that in most places the basic requirement for rigging is to have someone supervising that is willing to take on the liability of having stuff over head, has enough experience to keep it there, and has a means to rectify the situation if it comes down (a.k.a. insurance). I see you live in southern California and that makes it a whole lot more likely that they might also be additional requirements. There are a whole lot of people out there (especially in the DJ world) that don't realize they're taking on the liability in #1 and don't have #2 or #3, so that's probably why you've seen this done before. It seems like you came here and asked us because you wanted to do this right. Unfortunately "right" means hiring a qualified rigger to put the cable up in the air, or running it on the ground. 

As an additional consideration, it sounds like your getting into or are already in the DJ business but are currently uninsured. What happens if your speaker falls over and injures someone or any other one of the million things that can go wrong?


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## Saber (Mar 22, 2012)

Beam has a roof sitting on it  no wrapping around for me. 6 years now, no problems. I do my best to keep things safe, especially around high school students. And the schools are the ones with the insurrance, and i am an employee of the school.

ive been looking at getting my own insurance for doing outside events


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## JLNorthGA (Mar 22, 2012)

Is this a "usual" event? Something that happens with some regularity?
If so, I would consider having an electrician run a conduit and mount a box. That way you would only have to "drop" the 50 amp cable. You would only need an appropriate strain relief.


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## Clifford (Mar 22, 2012)

Lawyers are the second most numerous certified professionals in California. Odds are one of the precious little children under that cable has a parent who is a lawyer, and they won't be happy if you drop something on their child. They probably won't be happy if they find out you're rigging something without the proper insurance or certification either.

Also, from what I've seen down here, school districts are perfectly ok with throwing an employee or contractor under the bus to protect themselves. Have you seen exactly what liability they protect you from? You may find that you're explicitly prohibited from doing the kind of work you're doing. I know that I'm protected for "standard stage operations" which they define as things like hanging and moving stage lighting equipment, running and connecting power cables for stage lighting equipment (not to exceed 10AWG or involve anything over a 20A circuit, whereafter they assume one is trying to handle/install mains) and the construction of sets for use on stage. I am NOT covered for changing rigging, except operating the three electric winches we have. I could not hang truss, and if I need one of the dead hung battens at a different height or location for a show, we have to call in a rigger to supervise. This is something I'm perfectly happy with too, because it makes it one less thing I have to worry about being responsible for later one, and because they're more likely to catch things I wouldn't. I'm not, after all, a trained rigger.

While I would agree that what you're trying to do is probably not the greatest engineering and public safety challenge of our time, there is a reason people hire riggers. Not only do they have much greater knowledge and experience than you, but they're covered in case something does go wrong. They can also create a contract between themselves and the school that increases everyone's protection and clearly states responsibility for possible unexpected events.

Don't like this rigger? Find another one. This is southern California, they're not as common as lawyers, but they shouldn't be impossible to find. Maybe one will help a school out, you won't know until you ask.

PS: I like the idea of having an electrician doing a permanent install. If this is a regular event, and especially if it could be useful for other events, it's probably worth it just to have it run properly and permanently, so you never have to worry about this again.


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## mstaylor (Mar 24, 2012)

Mike:
Unless I am completely off base, an H beam has the flanges on the sides vertically with a horizontal center web. Looking at the end it looks like a H. An I beam has the flanges top and bottom on the horizontal plane with a vertical center web. The picture in your post 16 is an I beam. Turn that on it's side and it would be a H beam. When I think beam clamp I am more inclined to think the first picture in post 15. 
As stated in other posts, this is not a big deal to do, being responsible for it is the problem.


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## djyojoe (Mar 25, 2012)

You don't need a rigger for a job like that. Just hire an electrician for less. You can hire an electrician to do a temp install. Being in southern CA, you have a big market to choose from that can perform the work.


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