# wow...



## JahJahwarrior

Hey, I'm a new user here...been looking around for a while, a few days atleast. Looks ike a neat sight, so I joined up! I run sound and lights at my youth gruop, for my band, stuff like that. The gear we use at my youth group (we meet in the church gym, full size basketball court size, with a nice stage...it's got a professional curtain kit...) is a Yamaha 2404 board, along with a 16 channel Mackie we are about to switch to. Speakers: Yamaha something or others...very old, most people use them as floor monitors but these are our FOH. We have a large assortment of ever changing speakers for montirs (this is used mainly for worship, some skits. Not plays) like some Community haninging spakers, like personal monitors. Then, one yamaha floor monitor, one Fender floor monitor, some huge Peavey things that are broken.... forl ights, we use an NSI system. Two NRD8000 dimmer packs, total of 6 channels actualy work...I'm trying to get the church to fix them. NSI 32 channel board, or 16 channel two preset. We have lots of lights but no channesl to put them on, so I'm limited in that. Only pars 64's, Leko's (500watt), and fresnels (500 watt) use two pars for the stage wash mounted on tormentors on the wallsp erpendicular to the stage ,four fresnels on the battens above the stage for a blue or red wash, dpeneding on what gel I put in them. Two leko's for a light on the banner, ,and we have some cans in the roof to use when we turn the flourescents off. 

One quesiton: what's a grid? I keep hearing people talk about it and I don't know what one is. It sounds ike a lighting thing...the only lighting things I know of that you hang things on are like battens, tormentors, ladders, those things. 

thanks!


----------



## ship

The grid is what all your pipes etc fly from, that deck hanging below the stage tower's roof providing access if not mounting area for the fly system.


Welcome by the way.


----------



## JahJahwarrior

hm...the stage at my youth group has pipes hung, but, the roofing isl ike what they are hung from. Like the steel girders, well, those are what the pipes are hung from. (two battens, and whatIw oudl guess are battens, but with fabric on them coming down maybe 3 feet...and the curtain on the back wall, all that is hung from the girders in the ceiling, which are not covered by anything.) so, we don't have a grid??


Oh, and what exactly do you mean by fly system?? like forpeople?  I don't know much about alot of the theatre stuff, but I know alot about lighting and sound! thanks for helping me!


----------



## The_Guest

A fly system controls virtually all suspended objects over the stage. If you look at a decently sized theater you'll see a bunch of ropes on wall going up to the "grid" and coming back down suspended electric lines, curtains, scrims, etc. They have ropes attached to pulleys and locks. This system is also known as a counterweight system. Pretty much all suspended objects over the stage and incredibly heavy and are not suitable for human strength. So, basically pulleys and rope won't cut it. A fly system counter balances the weight to make things more suitable for human strength. Just a bunch of simple machines basically.

Here is a shot of an motorized electric line at my facility (RHS)...
http://msnusers.com/techphotospeter/picsofmike.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=88

I found these shots in a local livejournal community, someone wanted people to vote for this shots. Don't ask why someone would posts these on jones soda. It's a lame idea. Anyway, this is of another school's fly system in my district. I actually was working on this system yesterday, I had to completely clear the arbors. This lighting crew in the production I'm working on took almost all the fixtures on the electrics. They took every strip light avalable. I have never cleared that much weight of a fly system in my life. I personally hate loading and unloading weight onto the arbors (lines) when up on the loading dock next to the grid. I always think I'm going to drop the lines onto railing on the stage, and someone won't be obeying the "clear the rail!" rule. Yikes, anyways...SCHS's system...
http://www.jonessoda.com/gallery/view.php?ID=241404&search=Dana kelly&offset=3
http://www.jonessoda.com/gallery/view.php?ID=236937&search=Dana kelly&offset=7
http://www.jonessoda.com/gallery/view.php?ID=241403&search=Dana kelly&offset=4
http://www.jonessoda.com/gallery/view.php?ID=237163&search=Dana kelly&offset=6


----------



## JahJahwarrior

ok...I sorta understand...the battens, the bars with the curtain thingies hanging down a little ways (non adjustable for height) and the rail the back curtain slides open and closed on (it's like a half and half curtin that meets in themiddle...not sure if that has some neato name or not...) are all hung from the girders/rafters or whatever (flat roofed gym) by steel cabling...um, ike chains, you know?? They are not able to be lowered or raised. 

The front curtain, which is the kind taht is raised, is raised by ropes that go up to the top of the curtain to a pulley, and there they go to the stage right side of the stage. All the ropes there are tied to one board, which has, I think, three ropes going from it to an electric motor, whichpulls the curtain up. 

Is that a "fly" system?? Alot of this theatre stuff is giong over my head, and that sorta surpises me...I don't have much experience at other schools or anyting....thanks!!


----------



## zac850

the front curtain that goes up and down, that is a fly system. Larger theaters have fly systems of pipes, and you can put scenery on the pipes, so that the scenery can go up and down (the scenery can *fly*). 

The curtains that will move across the stage is not a fly system (the curtains arn't flying). This is on a traveler (thats what I know it as, but it may have another name).

I hope this helps

By the way, welcome!


----------



## JahJahwarrior

hm...makes me wish we had a fly system....I really want to learn more about tech stuff...I know enough to run everything at my youth group and then some, but, things ike a grid, and fly systems, I'm like "what??' and we have an NSI light system...I would love to learn about moving lights and DMX...I get some of it, but I would like to learn to use a DMX board, and I'd like to understand just a little better ow it works..I kinda get it. Just read some info on it. I think I'll read it again in a day or two and see if it makes more sense. 

And, thanks for the welcome, I'm liking what I'm learning here!


----------



## zac850

I know what you mean. My school has (well, we just got some cool stuff, so had) next to no equipment. Until half way through last year, our light set-up was 12 500 watt fresnels and a crappy American DJ board. 

If you have a community theater in your area, you might look into getting an internship there. If you can find there website, you can most likely get an email address. I did this a few months ago, and I've been interning and learning a lot of that I would have never been able to learn at my school because they don't have the equipment. I also get to see how a real theater works.


----------



## JahJahwarrior

we have (my youth) 15 or so 500 watt pars, 10 or so 1000 watt pars (but, because of how few channels I have, i don't use the 1k watt pars, because I need lots of light over thew hole stage...two 500 watts do better that way than 1k one) 2 (working) 500 watt fresnels and 2 that don't have bulbs, and four 500 watt Lekos. A 32 channel or 2x16, NSI system, ,with only 6 working dimmer channels (it's the dimmer packs, not the board) so, lots of lights to work with, no dimmer channels...

And, I'll look into an internship...a local church jsut got someintel. lights, and I've been trying to go over there with some friends to learn their system, but I've either been out of town or busy every time they've gone out there....they would have gone tonight (and I was free!) but there was a wedding (which I'd forgotten about...) go figure. Maybe now they'll get all their wedding crap off my stage!!


----------



## ship

"The Grid" as it were in your case it would seem is also a statement about your lighting pipes. Sometimes they are placed in a grid normally 4' on center boxes of piping thus also "The Grid." 

Given this other title for what is refered to as the hanging positons, just about any set of pipes to hang fixtures from than become a grid as it were in simply talking about a means of mounting the lights.

Thus your grid is a grid, just different in definition but the same name for it even if parallel pipes dead hung and not attached to each other in forming a grid of piping.


----------



## JahJahwarrior

oh, so we do sorta have a grid...ok! I understand ya'! 


We have two battens, and one fire sprinkler pip[e that's higher up (a foot or so below the 20 foot celing...we have a hand crank Genie Lift....I know, maybe unsafe but usually only one person around to use it, so we "spiderman" it up the thing....I hear everyone here talking about safety and rigging and stuff... ) that we use for lighting on the stage....it's a nice little stage...in trying to make the gym useful for everything, it's really almost usefull for nothing... but, it has a nice curtain system, pretty good accoustics, and reasonable lighting. It works ok for sound! 

thanks!!


----------



## ship

Just wait until by way of mentioning the fire sprinkler pipe as a batten you develop a slight leak or some gorilla finally punches thru the sprinkler pipe in clamping down the clamp to it's pipe and you will have ever so many more problems than a lack of a grid.

My advice, don't use the sprinkler system as a part of the grid, leave it alone and especially by the way of hanging fixtures on to it don't use it thus as part of the system ground. In the case of an arc, this could prevent the system from activating. Another little safety thing as it were. If you need a pipe, hang one but don't use the safey equipment for one.


----------



## JahJahwarrior

hm...never thought about hanging another pipe....the tech dude that I learned alot from hung ights up there once (only two lights, that's all we've ever puton it) so I just assumed it was cool. And, we only use it for those two lights...but, I thik I'll ask about hanging aother pipe there! thanks for the suggestion!


----------



## dvsDave

You should probably locate a professional rigger to help you hang the pipe because the roof girders can only take so much weight. I don't think it would in your case, but that's because you don't have very many lights up there now. However, someday you could have lots of lights and you don't want to have it come down then! 

Besides, you could probably learn a lot from the rigger as well!!


----------



## sallyj

JahJahwarrior, it looks like you have come to the right place for info! Your thirst for knowledge is refreshing-check out some books on theatre as well. The Backstage Handbook is full of info that you seek-names of stuff,lighting, hardware, math, architecture... You can probably get it from Amazon. Also any generic stagecraft textbook. Borders carries some, as does Barnes and Noble. What size of town/city do you live in? Is there a cultural district you can check out? If you are rural, I know it can be harder, but info is out there. So, welcome, and ask away!
By the way Ship, nice avatar!

SJM


----------



## JahJahwarrior

Im from Gainesville, Florida...big college town (UF) of cours,e I'm not in the college, I'm like in 10th grade,b ut one day I might go there...

I've read a book on lighting once...I read alot of articles on the internet too...how the heck do I contact a rigger though???


----------



## ship

Not my avatar though I kind of like it’s shading, thank you Rock Angle - I guess the winner of give Ship a Avatar contest.

Contacting a rigger in Florida... One might call a local scene shop or inquire with your theatrical supply house. Otherwise ask around to other places such as other schools and colleges as to who they use. If nothing else, the TD or other staff at the local college or pro theater should be sufficient for the most part dependant upon the hang. Could require an engineer, but at least the rigger you consult will than be able to tell you first.


----------



## MistressRach

Youre most welcome Ship


----------



## JahJahwarrior

ok, Dimmer pckas are giong to be fixed!! works perfectly, we aren't using the gym for two weeks, beccause of VBS. We are in another bulding, o we are sending them off today to be fixed, should be done before we move back!


----------



## The_Guest

Here are some shots of another high school's grid in my district...
http://msnusers.com/techphotospeter/fiddlerontheroof.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=190
http://msnusers.com/techphotospeter/fiddlerontheroof.msnw?Page=4


----------



## DMXtools

Hello and welcome!


JahJahwarrior said:


> ...I would love to learn about moving lights and DMX...I get some of it, but I would like to learn to use a DMX board, and I'd like to understand just a little better ow it works.



I'm a full-time Electronics Engineer who got into tech theater more as a hobby than as a job - doing sound and lights for local bands. I've designed some of my own DMX gear and, a while back, tried to write an article on DMX-512 that you wouldn't need an engineering degree to understand. Check it out and see if it helps.

Once again, welcome!

John


----------



## JahJahwarrior

link isn't wokring for me....

thanks!


----------



## dvsDave

The actual link is http://www.dmx-tools.com/FAQs.html


----------



## JahJahwarrior

thanks....those articlesseem to talk about some product, not how DMX works....I'm confused....


----------



## Mayhem

The actual link is:

http://www.dmx-tools.com/DMX512_Primer.html


----------



## DMXtools

JahJahwarrior said:


> link isn't wokring for me....
> 
> thanks!


Sorry - I'm running my own server and occasionally forget that what I've got to type to get to a page isn't quite the same as what anyone outside my LAN has to enter. I've gone back and corrected the original post - the URL Mayhem gave is correct.

John


----------



## DMXtools

dvsDave said:


> "The actual link is http://www.dmx-tools.com/FAQs.html




JahJahwarrior said:


> thanks....those articlesseem to talk about some product, not how DMX works....I'm confused....



Yes, the FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) pages Dave pointed to talk about my first two products, gadgets that translate between DMX-512 and several different flavors of micro-plex. The *DMX-lator I* lets a DMX-512 board run micro-plex dimmer packs, while the *DMX-lator II* lets a micro-plex board run DMX-512 dimmers (not recommended for DMX scanners or color changers because most micro-plex boards can't handle them properly). By the way, I'm working on a stripped-down version of the *DMX-lator I* for small systems. It will only translate 24 channels of DMX to micro-plex, but will list for less than $200. It will be in production and ready for sale by July 23, 2004. As I did with the original gadgets, I'll offer them to ControlBooth.com members (by e-mail) at a reduced price: dealer net cost ($106.95 including shipping).

John

Added July 11, 2005: Well, the stripped-down version was a commercial flop: it didn't generate enough interest to pay the tooling charges for circuit boards... and the time needed to modify the standard DMX-lator board to work with fewer components cost more than the parts I was leaving off. Sorry, but it's no longer available. My offer of the standard _*DMX-lator I*_ for $139.95 to ControlBooth members stands.

John


----------



## dvsDave

oops, that would be my fault. 

"Assumption is the mother of all screwups"

Refer to Under Seige 2: Dark Territories for the un-edited quote or just use your imagination.


----------



## JahJahwarrior

yeah, they looked like neat products. I'm gussing they are silk screeneD?? How/where do you get that done??

Thanks, I'll read that article tonight.


----------



## DMXtools

JahJahwarrior said:


> yeah, they looked like neat products. I'm gussing they are silk screeneD?? How/where do you get that done??


You guessed right. I did the artwork with the el-cheapo Adobe PhotoDeluxe that came with my digital camera, then let my fingers do the walking, i.e.- I looked in the Yellow Pages under Silkscreening. Checkout a couple different contractors and found one that would do small batches (I only build about 50 at a shot) for a reasonable price. I work in my basement, my silk-screen contractor lives a couple miles away and works in his garage... us startups have to stick together.

John


----------



## JahJahwarrior

now, are the cases painted black beforehand?? Where did you get the cases from, or did you make them?? 


And, that article was VERY informative!! I feel like I understand this alot better! Now, ineed some hands on work....but thanks for that article!


----------



## avkid

belated hello to you ,hope you find our community helpful


----------



## DMXtools

JahJahwarrior said:


> now, are the cases painted black beforehand?? Where did you get the cases from, or did you make them??
> 
> 
> And, that article was VERY informative!! I feel like I understand this alot better! Now, ineed some hands on work....but thanks for that article!



Actually, the cases are an off-the-shelf item, BUD Industries part number CU-389, available from Newark, Digi-Key, or RS Electronics (RS usually has the best price - around $5, depending on quantity). They're molded from high-impact plastic - the plastic itself is black.

All I have to do is cut the holes for connectors and switches. I have a computer-controlled milling machine to do that. I built jigs to hold the box and its cover, and wrote the program to guide the milling machine. That was the hard part. The easy part is clamping a box in the jig and pushing the "go" button. The computer takes about 15 minutes to do each box, but once I start it, I can go do something else. It never makes a mistake.

I took the first batch of 50 cases to a local machine shop. They charged me $10 each to cut the same holes in each case and made mistakes on several of them - 5 of them serious enough that I had to throw them out. That's when I started shopping for my own mill.

One thing I'm pretty proud of is that my gadgets passed FCC tests for interference even though the plastic case doesn't provide any shielding. I looked at the design from the point of view of the sound guy as well as lights - if the lighting system makes the PA buzz, I wanted to make sure it wasn't my gadget doing it.

John


----------



## JahJahwarrior

neato!!! that talents some people have are amazing!! where'd you get themill?? howmuch???


----------



## DMXtools

JahJahwarrior said:


> neato!!! that talents some people have are amazing!! where'd you get themill?? howmuch???


I'd rather not say just where I bought it, because they jerked me around on it: I wanted a Taig, and they implied they had it in stock and could ship immediately. When I didn't get it, three weeks after I'd sent the check, I called to find out what was up and found out they were back-ordered from the factory. It would be at least two more months before I'd get it. I switched my order to a more-expensive MaxNC... which they didn't have in stock either, but the MaxNC factory would drop-ship direct to me. Another two weeks after I did an e-check for the difference, I finally had my mill. Total cost, with shipping, was just under $2000.

The link should point to a black-and-white picture of it in the process of cutting boxes. It runs off the parallel port of a PC. The NC program is DOS-based - it has to take direct control of the port and timers.

The computer doesn't come with it. I resurrected an old Compaq 486-33 and loaded Windows 98 on it (gives me good networking and can restart in DOS mode). The only tricky thing was telling the NC software where Compaq put the parallel port (old Compaqs used a different I/O address from everybody else).

Anyhow, I clamp two boxes onto the jig and push the "go" button (the "C" key on the confuser keyboard). It cuts the north end of one box and the south end of the other. Then I switch the boxes, press "C" again, and it cuts the other end of each. The only problem I ever had was if I tried to cut too fast, it would melt the plastic rather than cutting it and I'd end up with a big glob of plastic stuck to the mill (standard .062" dia. 4-flute end mill).

Writing G-code (the command language for most NC tools) is a lot of math... mostly basic geometry. If you've read some of my other posts, you might have noticed math is something I'm sort-of good at. I didn't used-to be, until I recognized the practical value. Math, taken as an abstract, is boring. When it can be used to describe actual, real-world relationships and help solve real-world problems, it gets interesting real quick.
(steps down off his soapbox)

Have fun!

John


----------



## JahJahwarrior

neat!! that's probably alot easier than drilling them all by hand...


----------



## DMXtools

Drilling a dozen boxes by hand would have been easier than writing the NC program... but I've used the program and mill to cut over 150 boxes so far, with many more to come. Besides, if I drilled a dozen boxes by hand I'd probably wind up with only ten that were good enough to ship to customers. I'm good at math, but only fair when it comes to manual dexterity.

John


----------



## JahJahwarrior

and, the machine is quicker I'd guess...

anyways, it really is suprising to know that there are NSI-DMX converters. 

Another question with DMX-- for an intelligent light, does it have the dimmer built in?? (beccause they dim mechanically I believe) Now, are there dimmers that are like theNSI dimmer packs, like they have a DMX input and then on the back they have edison outputs? 

Thanks!


----------



## DMXtools

Several companies make dimmer packs for DMX-512: that's what the protocol was actually designed for. I can name a few off the top of my head. Electrol makes really high-end stuff. Leprecon, Lightronics and NSI make DMX versions of their most popular microplex dimmer packs to cover the middle of the market. American DJ and Chauvet hit the low end of the market with units made in China. NSI recently decided to get into the low end with a unit that is practically identical to the American DJ box, also made in China. There are probably many more.

Not all intelligent lights are dimmable, but most of the ones I've seen have the dimmer built-in. Then there are moving-yoke and moving-mirror attachments for the S-4. On those, the dimmer isn't included (as far as I know).

By the way, both NSI and Lightronics also make DMX to microplex translators. It's just that they'd rather sell you several new DMX dimmer packs (or keep you locked in to their microplex products) than just one converter, so they price their converters pretty high and don't advertise them. Protocol translators are all I do, so I try to keep prices reasonable.

John


----------



## zac850

DMXtools said:


> Then there are moving-yoke and moving-mirror attachments for the S-4. On those, the dimmer isn't included (as far as I know).



I don't believe that the dimmers are built in. I was looking around the ETC website, and I was looking at them for a bit, and I don't remember them saying that the dimmer is built in. I believe its just a normal s4 zoom on a moving head. I remember seeing that you can also add other moving things--an iras, zoom, and other things that i'm forgetting now.

I believe that most "normal" intelligent lights have a dimmer built in.


----------



## ship

DMXtools said:


> By the way, both NSI and Lightronics also make DMX to microplex translators. It's just that they'd rather sell you several new DMX dimmer packs (or keep you locked in to their microplex products) than just one converter, so they price their converters pretty high and don't advertise them. Protocol translators are all I do, so I try to keep prices reasonable.
> 
> John



And the above is why you stand above most that produce a product of your own in that you do recognize that there are many paddles available to move this boat. Most people will have said we offer such a thing than left it at that necessitating me to tell of other suppliers out of fairness.

Converters having built-in dimmers..., could be done but it would be custom to do. I expect just about any dimmer manufacturer can produce a converter. I have for a long time had a NSI converter granted it takes an electronics expert to tell me which bridge to put where once I take the thing apart to get at doing so. DMX Tool's version I believe reads various languages automatically. Don't know if it will work in either direction desired such as the NSI converter I have however.


----------



## DMXtools

ship said:


> Converters having built-in dimmers..., could be done but it would be custom to do.


Actually, I think the reference was to intels having built-in dimmers. Some do. The ones that don't are usually not meant to be dimmed.

Getting back to converters -

> DMX Tool's version I believe reads various languages automatically. Don't know if it will work in either direction desired such as the NSI converter I have however.


Actually, I'm sticking to the KISS principle (Keep It Simple, Stupid) and have different low-priced models to convert in each direction rather than a high-priced "do everything" box. Also, right now I only cover various flavors of "microplex" that have existed over the years. The NSI box does one flavor of microplex (microplex-128), plus MIDI, AMX-192, RS-232, Luma-net and 4-channels of 0-10 volt analog. The complexity Ship mentioned is because you have to set jumpers and switches to select the one translation you need. For a contractor, DJ or anyone who needs to coordinate his own gear with installed systems in a lot of different venues, it's wonderful, and I've recommended it over my own equipment in those situations. But for people who just want to upgrade a microplex (or Sunn-plex, Ultra-plex, LMX or MUX-64) system to DMX-512, I think I provide a more cost-effective, easier-to-use solution.

John


----------



## TheLightmaster

JahJahwarrior said:


> One quesiton: what's a grid? I keep hearing people talk about it and I don't know what one is. It sounds ike a lighting thing...the only lighting things I know of that you hang things on are like battens, tormentors, ladders, those things.
> 
> thanks!


It's a rigging thing...A grid is a high up place to fall from and die.


----------



## zuixro

This thread is from 2004, major necropost. Was the wiki not around back then?


----------



## Footer

zuixro said:


> Was the wiki not around back then?



Nope. In 2004 they were still giving out ribbons. I joined after the ribbons went away. I hated those ribbons.


----------

