# Technology needed to accomplish this...



## Zionne (Aug 18, 2011)

We have a customer who will be to hosting events at his facilities (weddings,proms, etc...) and he wants to stream what the cameras are filming,capturing dont know the word for it to a couple of monitors or maybe a projector or a screen, not sure yet.

He also wants the cameras to be full HD,and have the capabilities of selling the event DVD/Blue Ray.

Is there a wireless camera that can stream the video up to the LAN and from there be able to use digital signing and stream the video live.

Or how can we accomplish the requirement, we are a network company and once the stream is on the LAN we can take it from there.

Any pointer is more than welcomed.

Regards,


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## DuckJordan (Aug 18, 2011)

two things that I don't like about this... He want to have the capabilities of selling the events on DVD/Blu ray, the next thing that worries me is the Networking side... standard Computer LAN carries quite a bit of delay and for an event that may need to be instantaneous from camera to screen standard LAN practices used in computers is going to make it near impossible on a budget.

I'll let others spec equipment they would use for this, but I would ask your customer to narrow down what exactly he wants to accomplish...

Meaning How many sources, how many outputs, need to grow in the future? How much is his budget, What kind of latency is he expecting, what kind of full HD? and what purpose does he for see using the Recording to DVD/Blu Ray feature...


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## Zionne (Aug 18, 2011)

Hi DuckJordan,

Thank you for the prompt reply,

The main request is to stream the video from camera to screen, if it can go through the LAN will be better because then we can store the data into a NAS and aslo use digital signing.

The idea of selling trhe event on a DVD/Blue Ray will be a plus, but is not part of the main request.

The budget is around 20K

The source will be from two cameras and it might be two screens depending on the cost of the cameras. No need to grow in the near future (3 - 5 years), and as close to live stream as possible.

For the hd part we can work from 720 to 1080i

Hope with this we can start looking to part numbers or brands to start quoting.

Regards,


DuckJordan said:


> two things that I don't like about this... He want to have the capabilities of selling the events on DVD/Blu ray, the next thing that worries me is the Networking side... standard Computer LAN carries quite a bit of delay and for an event that may need to be instantaneous from camera to screen standard LAN practices used in computers is going to make it near impossible on a budget.
> 
> I'll let others spec equipment they would use for this, but I would ask your customer to narrow down what exactly he wants to accomplish...
> 
> Meaning How many sources, how many outputs, need to grow in the future? How much is his budget, What kind of latency is he expecting, what kind of full HD? and what purpose does he for see using the Recording to DVD/Blu Ray feature...


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## metti (Aug 18, 2011)

There is no LAN based system for providing IMAG that will avoid introducing rather considerable latency into the system. I know you may not want to hear this since you're a networking company but using a network based system is simply not a good solution for this type of setup. If the screens are located in a different room you might be able to get away with it as long as you aren't going to have speakers where the voices need to stay in sync with the video without overlapping with sound bleeding from the main event room. 20k is sufficient to buy two lower-end HD cameras, a small HD switcher, and two HD TVs depending on the models you choose. If you need the cameras to be wireless, the TVs to be really big, or a projector or any reasonable brightness, you are going to need to increase your budget. You can also get a computer with a fast hard drive and an HD capture card to record the output from the switcher.


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## museav (Aug 18, 2011)

I think you may want to break this down into the individual components, e.g. live I-Mag versus streaming versus recording and to address each one rather than trying to look at them as all being the same.

You mentioned a $20k budget, but what does that have to cover? Are any of the cameras, production switcher, projector and screen, monitors, etc. existing or would the budget have to cover everything? Would the cameras be fixed, handheld, on tripods/pedestals or 'robotic' (remote controlled pan/til/zoom/focus)? Might they want the system to support displaying laptops or other media sources?

Another factor to consider is who is going to be operating the system. Will it be qualified technicians/operators or is the intent for just about anyone to be able to run it?

Similarly, who is going to be installing it? Will it be someone familiar with permanent installs and the related code compliance issues and industry practices? And speaking of installation, don't forget to account for all the ancillary items like cables, connectors, mounts and so on, those can start to add up.

You mentioned that you are looking for information on specific brands and models but there does not seem to be any overall concept for the system or plan for how everything will work together and how it is going to be implemented. There is also critical information not identified such as the type of cameras and the room and viewing area sizes. Have they considered getting a qualified system designer or design/build contractor involved that could perhaps help with developing a more comprehensive, system based approach? That might be the best way to serve your customer.

There may also be a related aspect your customer needs to consider in that recording or streaming wouldn't be covered by any public performance licenses. Probably not an issue for many events but probably relevant for bands, DJs or any other copyrighted content or music performance.


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## BillESC (Aug 19, 2011)

Start with a pair of Sony HD PZT cameras, a video switcher and a Tascam BD-R2000 digital recorder. Add a pair of screens and projectors. That should use up your budget.


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## Esoteric (Aug 19, 2011)

There is a beautiful system by a company called Just Add Power that is an ethernet based system. Check them out. We install them in houses of worship all the time. Great system and will do exactly what you are looking for.


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## cpf (Aug 19, 2011)

Esoteric said:


> There is a beautiful system by a company called Just Add Power that is an ethernet based system. Check them out. We install them in houses of worship all the time. Great system and will do exactly what you are looking for.


 
How's the lag on them? I dug around their website but they don't admit to much.


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## museav (Aug 19, 2011)

BillESC said:


> Start with a pair of Sony HD PZT cameras, a video switcher and a Tascam BD-R2000 digital recorder. Add a pair of screens and projectors. That should use up your budget.




Esoteric said:


> There is a beautiful system by a company called Just Add Power that is an ethernet based system. Check them out. We install them in houses of worship all the time. Great system and will do exactly what you are looking for.


This is sort of what I was referencing, one response addresses the front end and the display aspects while the other addresses signal distribution but neither seems to encompass everything you apparently want. That suggests it may not be real clear what is really wanted to at least what aspects are priorities. A $20k budget is seems very tight for what you appear to be describing so it is going to be very important to define the goals and priorities. The references to two HD cameras, weddings, selling copies, etc. suggest that what may be envisioned would also include some level of production, but just what may be desired is not real clear. Nor is whether recording is required, desired or wishful thinking. With the budget noted those types of issues probably need to be assessed and well defined before addressing potential hardware solutions.

It will likely also be important to make sure that everything involved is addressed, I've seen too many cases of nice equipment sitting unused because they spent all the money only to then find that they didn't have all the pieces and/or expertise needed to put it together and get it working.


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## Esoteric (Aug 19, 2011)

No perceptible lag. And since audio and video are carried by the same signal, lag on the recording would be non-existent. I use systems like this in churches for iMAG all the time. I also use BlackMagic Products that work beautifully for this as well.


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## epimetheus (Aug 19, 2011)

I tried one of the Just Add Power setups in my home media setup last year. It didn't cut it when pushing 1080i video via hdmi over my gigabit home network. Even standard def didn't look so great, blocky and such. I was using VBS-HDMI-108A and VBS-HDMI-308A. Maybe they've made progress in the last year. I would still demo a setup first, though.


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## SHARYNF (Aug 19, 2011)

BillESC said:


> Start with a pair of Sony HD PZT cameras, a video switcher and a Tascam BD-R2000 digital recorder. Add a pair of screens and projectors. That should use up your budget.


 
This is an interesting solution, the only area that I would think will need another "box" is getting from the HD switcher to the TASCAM in HDV mode. I have not seen this unit and perhaps Bill has but I am guessing it only takes in HD via firewire? and most of the switchers output via HD/sdi. The recorder lists for 2900 sells for around 2100. Id be interested in what specific switcher Bill is recommending and more on the inputs that can be used to record hd
Sharyn


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## Esoteric (Aug 20, 2011)

epimetheus said:


> I tried one of the Just Add Power setups in my home media setup last year. It didn't cut it when pushing 1080i video via hdmi over my gigabit home network. Even standard def didn't look so great, blocky and such. I was using VBS-HDMI-108A and VBS-HDMI-308A. Maybe they've made progress in the last year. I would still demo a setup first, though.


 
Hmmmm... I have never seen that issue. What did Ed say was the issue?


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## Esoteric (Aug 20, 2011)

SHARYNF said:


> This is an interesting solution, the only area that I would think will need another "box" is getting from the HD switcher to the TASCAM in HDV mode. I have not seen this unit and perhaps Bill has but I am guessing it only takes in HD via firewire? and most of the switchers output via HD/sdi. The recorder lists for 2900 sells for around 2100. Id be interested in what specific switcher Bill is recommending and more on the inputs that can be used to record hd
> Sharyn



Yeah, I am not sure how that TASCAM is supposed to work.

Are you wanting production switching capability? If not:

Myself if you went with something like the Sony EDIHD1 you could take SDI out to a DA and split the signal. Send it to the projectors and run it through a SDI to HDMI converter, and then take the SDI directly to one of any number of broadcast grade recorders.

If so:

Same cameras, SDI out to a good production switcher, (either a matrix switcher like Kramer VS-41HD or TV One S2-108HD or a full production switcher like a Ross Crossover or Datavideo SE-2000 HD-SDI), and then repeat from above.


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## museav (Aug 20, 2011)

Esoteric said:


> And since audio and video are carried by the same signal, lag on the recording would be non-existent.


Provided the encoding and decoding automatically compensate for any differential between the audio and video caused by the associated processing.

I have seen several people say they have used the Just Add Power products without noticeable delay but then I have also seen claims of it having zero latency, which seems to be unrealistic with an IP based system. Unfortunately, I have yet to see any definitive numbers but that may be because they would be network and network traffic dependent. If you had the Just Add Power system on a dedicated LAN or VLAN then there may be minimal latency but that would seem to potentially not apply to a busy and complex network.

I'm also still curious as to exactly how Ed deals with HDCP and EDID, especially with the G2 devices that remove the scaler in the receiver. Passing HDCP key and EDID information is one thing but managing those when you have the possibility of a source connected to multiple destinations in potentially different and varying combinations can require much more than just passing through the information.


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## Esoteric (Aug 20, 2011)

Yeah, I always install Just Add Power systems on dedicated switches. Maybe that is why I have never had a latency problem. But yes, Ed told me it is entirely dependant on the network.


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## epimetheus (Aug 20, 2011)

Esoteric said:


> Hmmmm... I have never seen that issue. What did Ed say was the issue?


 
Unfortunately, I never got into troubleshooting with the manufacturer. I ended up just building another HTPC for less than the cost of the Just Add Power system anyway. FWIW, I did have the Just Add Power system on an isolated VLAN and my home network is based on a HP Procurve 1800G ethernet switch. I'm curious to try out the 2G solution, but just don't have an extra $1200 bucks to throw down. I will keep it in mind as a possible solution for my church if we get into a situation that may require it.


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## Esoteric (Aug 20, 2011)

epimetheus said:


> Unfortunately, I never got into troubleshooting with the manufacturer. I ended up just building another HTPC for less than the cost of the Just Add Power system anyway. FWIW, I did have the Just Add Power system on an isolated VLAN and my home network is based on a HP Procurve 1800G ethernet switch. I'm curious to try out the 2G solution, but just don't have an extra $1200 bucks to throw down. I will keep it in mind as a possible solution for my church if we get into a situation that may require it.


 
Ahhhh... I always use the 2G system too.


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## josh88 (Aug 20, 2011)

my memory of this show is hazy, but I did one awhile back where we had 3 projectors and 3 handheld hd cams, and had live streaming of what was on stage. They were wired, but I'm pretty sure we just ran each camera to the a/v inputs on the projectors and just did it like that. I believe each camera recorded the whole time and projectors essentially acted like monitors to show was was being recorded.


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## Esoteric (Aug 20, 2011)

You could do that. But that would be very confusing to look at. And then you are talking about doing work in post to put the video together.

What effect is the OP looking for?

We probably install 40 or so systems like this a year.

What show?

We did an opera where we used a Catalyst (am I dating myself or what?) system to project (and move) a singer who was live on camera in the basement.


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## josh88 (Aug 20, 2011)

it was a show by Nena Beber called Jump/Cut. 

for the production we didn't make a video or anything we just used the projectors to give a live view of different angles and close ups and such during the live performance. We had a film crew, steady cam and dolly installed front of house as well. The show in general was a nightmare to work on but made for an interesting blend of film and theatre.


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## metti (Aug 20, 2011)

Esoteric said:


> We did an opera where we used a Catalyst (am I dating myself or what?) system



Somewhat OT, but how is a reference to using Catalyst dating yourself? It is still commercially available and pretty widely used.


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## Esoteric (Aug 21, 2011)

metti said:


> Somewhat OT, but how is a reference to using Catalyst dating yourself? It is still commercially available and pretty widely used.


 
I did a similar show 2 years ago or so and we used DL3s with a GrandMA media server.

I actually thought Catalyst was pretty much obsolete.


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## museav (Aug 21, 2011)

Esoteric said:


> What effect is the OP looking for?
> 
> We probably install 40 or so systems like this a year.
> 
> What show?


I got the impression from the reference to weddings, proms, etc. that this is not for a show and is for an installed systems for an events space. I also get the impression from some of the OP's comments that the best thing they could do to serve their client is to get someone familiar with these types of systems involved.

So around $6,700 for two Sony EVIHD1 cameras and $1,300 for the controller. Say the new BlackMagic ATEM Television Studio switcher and a computer to operate it along with monitors for the computer and switcher multi-image output, so maybe $2,000-$2,500 or more there. The recorder Bill noted is $2,100 and only takes USB, iLink (FireWire) or analog video (component, Y/C or composite) in, so you need to somehow get from SDI or HDMI to one of those formats so a $450-$500 box for that. Factor in cables, camera mounts, etc. and that's probably around $13,000 to $14,000 total just for the cameras, switching and recording, leaving maybe $6k to $7k for the projectors and screens or flat panel displays, any distribution, all the audio aspects and the system design, installation, documentation, setup, testing, etc. We have no idea of the size of the venue or anything else about the space, thus no idea on what displays or projectors may be appropriate or to confirm if a camera like the EVIHD1 will work, and we have no idea on how this ties into any audio but no matter what they would likely be really pushing the budget a bit if not quite a bit.

So to address the entire system and work within the budget you'll probably need to make some compromises. Do you cut out the recording or find a less expensive option? Get rid of the production switcher and go to a simple 'crash' type switcher? Lose the camera controller? Skip streaming or network distribution and simply distribute the video signal direct to the display devices? These are the kinds of decisions someone who can adequately judge the impact on the systems and related costs should discuss with the client.


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## Chris15 (Aug 21, 2011)

A proper HD stream has a data rate of 3 Gbps for 1080p, so to use normal Eth you're going to need to compress it. Compression adds delay. Even a 1080i / 720p stream is 1.485 Gbps, and remember those numbers are raw data, not including the overheads of Eth etc. etc.

You mentioned wanting to utilise the capcity of an existing digital signage system. What equipment does that use?

Oh and wireless networks are absolutely horrible for latency...


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