# Haze effect



## Chaos is Born (Sep 8, 2007)

Ok, so i'm working on a show that has some flashbacks happen throughout the show. I want to have one scene have a haze effect to show the memories, what dmx style hazer do you recomend for being able to fill an area of about 15'x30'x44'?


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## soundlight (Sep 8, 2007)

I'd use a Reel FX DF-50. Simple, reliable, doesn't even need DMX (but you can get a DMX interface if you so desire). It's a great unit with good output. It's got relatively quick dispersion, and should work well for your application. Stick a fan in front of/behind it, and you're good to go.


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## SHARYNF (Sep 8, 2007)

Are you sure you want to use haze? problem will be clearing it before you get back to the next scene /"present" 
A scrim might work better, you could have it set up that it is black, present if front lighting, past is just from behind the scrim 
Just a thought
Sharyn


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## gafftaper (Sep 8, 2007)

Great point Sharyn, once you commit to the haze, it's going to stick around a while. Unless it's just before intermission or just before the end of the show, you're going to be looking at haze for a while.


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## BillESC (Sep 8, 2007)

Depending on your facilities abillities, flying in a gause or net downstage will achieve the effect you're looking for without the residual consequencies.


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## Sean (Sep 8, 2007)

Chaos is Born said:


> Ok, so i'm working on a show that has some flashbacks happen throughout the show. I want to have one scene have a haze effect to show the memories, what dmx style hazer do you recomend for being able to fill an area of about 15'x30'x44'?



Unique 2 Hazer from Look Solutions. VERY good output, from a light haze to almost a full "fog machine" type volume.

Very quite, easy to use. I highly recommend it.

--Sean


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## Chaos is Born (Sep 9, 2007)

We don't have the ability to fly out a Scrim (genius idea of having 16' of fly space over a 25' opening...

The problem with scrim is they pass between present and past fairly quickly and the traveler is being closed, past is when traveler is open and present is when it is closed basically. 

And our air handling system can pump that place clean in about 2-3 mins flat if set right. 

I just didn't want to haze the whole place up so i wasn't going to fire it off till right before the scene and then kill it right before it ended.

I have looked at the DF-50, I like it quite a bit.

It also has to be a water based haze... our fire surpression system requires it.


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## gafftaper (Sep 9, 2007)

You could either trip the scrim or build an Oleo either technique would get it in and out no problem in your space. 

The whole point of haze is that it hangs in the air a LONG TIME. You might be a lot smarter to think about the super quick dissipating fog and just spread it out a lot with a good fan. 


If you want to go with hazers, the two hazers you'll find on everyone's short list are the Look Unique and the LeMaitre Radiance.


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## Van (Sep 9, 2007)

I kind of have to go with Gaff on this. A hazer, even a good one, will take a lot longer than a scene change to get a sufficent amount of haze onstage. Perhaps a couple of 1500's with Stage and studio juice in them, a good 5 second blast with them on 5 is going to be realitivly quiet, and if you use a fan, should just about cover the volume of your stage in 4-5 seconds. you could dial the units down and leave them on 2-3 for the rest of the scene, keeping the fans on. Or perhaps just letting a bit of fog roll in from each side of the stage during the scene would get the "flashback" idea set in folks minds. Just a couple of Ideas.

**** those Cinematographers and their rubbing vaseline on the lens, for flashback scenes. If we could just rub the actors with vaseline to make the scene a flashback it would really simplify things. 

Wait forget I said that, it would complicate things.


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## Sean (Sep 9, 2007)

Chaos is Born said:


> I have looked at the DF-50, I like it quite a bit.
> It also has to be a water based haze... our fire surpression system requires it.




And the DF-50 is loud.

Why does it have to be water-based? I've never heard that before as a requirement for fire systems. 


--Sean


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## Chaos is Born (Sep 9, 2007)

we have been told by the fire marshal:

A: No Fog Machines
B: Haze has to be Water based.

This is why i'm looking at Hazers instead of foggers.


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## Sean (Sep 9, 2007)

Chaos is Born said:


> we have been told by the fire marshal:
> A: No Fog Machines
> B: Haze has to be Water based.
> This is why i'm looking at Hazers instead of foggers.



Hmmmm.... this sounds odd at best.

Though of course you don't want to piss him off, it might be worth asking the question. Is mineral oil in the air any better/worse than glycol?

What sort of venue is this?

--Sean


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## SHARYNF (Sep 9, 2007)

there is no need to fly the scrim in and out
a set could be designed where the scrim in say black is there permanently, you use the lighting effect I mentioned in my earlier post, front normal set lighting scrim looks black, douse front lights, light up area behind the scrim and you have the flash back. 
Done all the time 
Haze is not going to give you the effect you want unless it is heavy enought to not just show the light beams but also haze the image, and again you cannot clear it or have it only hang in one space.

Again just a suggestion, but black scrim and some lighting technique could do the trick, if problem is set duplication, you can "paint" background with image of the set, if problem is duplication of the actors and speed, when yo douse the front lights, they need to move quickly to the other area. Is the problem that when the travel is open that the actors just walk back into the past? 

If all else fails you can have the front scrim on a roller drop down, and then quickly roll up when needed
Other approach is to use low lying dry ice fog don't have it rise to fog the whole set, but rather just create a cloud like layer of low lying fog around the feet and ankles 


Other approach is to take a completely different tack, use light pallete to make the difference, then if the actors are mic'ed equ it so that it sounds distant and also add enough reverb to make it noticable but not annoying. 

IMO haze or smoke is not going to do it in you want to cover the entire space.

Sharyn


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## Chaos is Born (Sep 9, 2007)

The actors walk directly through where the scrim would be, it has to be a flawless movement for the scene to work. I would love to use a scrim but that got scrapped when actors started having to be moving through where it would be hanging without walking off stage.


Sean said:


> What sort of venue is this?
> --Sean



http://www.fairfield-city.org/Activities/cac/index.cfm

Community Arts Center.


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## icewolf08 (Sep 9, 2007)

I'll put in a second for the Unique hazer, but I do agree that if you need the effect to be there and then be not there haze isn't going to do it. If your HVAC can clear the space fast enough then you won't be able to get the haze on stage fast enough to create the effect. It is kind of a catch-22. I would try something else, change the lighting and sound like was mentioned before.


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## Grog12 (Sep 9, 2007)

gafftaper said:


> You could either trip the scrim or build an Oleo either technique would get it in and out no problem in your space.
> The whole point of haze is that it hangs in the air a LONG TIME. You might be a lot smarter to think about the super quick dissipating fog and just spread it out a lot with a good fan.
> If you want to go with hazers, the two hazers you'll find on everyone's short list are the Look Unique and the LeMaitre Radiance.



For once I find myself disagreeing with gaff...
Stay away from LeMaitre....god i hate those machines. They don't work overly well...are clunky and a pain in the kiester.

If your ventaliation system is as good as you say it is you might be able to clear out the haze fast enough...that's not a garuntee..just a supisition. In Vegas where we had hella air condinitioning the theatre I worked in could clear haze out in about 10 minutes...if it wasn't over pumped before hand.

The other thing you said that worried me is that you didn't want to fire it off until right before the scene...remember that haze needs a little time to build properly so it doesn't come across looking like smoke. If you fire it full blast right before the scene it'll look just like that.


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## Chaos is Born (Sep 9, 2007)

We have sufficient control of our HVAC that we can activate the different levels when we need it on stage. So i'm not worried about timing the clearing with the HVAC unit.


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## Van (Sep 9, 2007)

Chaos is Born said:


> we have been told by the fire marshal:
> 
> A: No Fog Machines
> B: Haze has to be Water based.
> ...


 
You might need a clarification on that ruling. The only water based fog I've ever seen is one of those little hypersonic things that was being discussed in another thread on here. All haze or fog is a combination of water and either mineral oil of Gycol. In the OLD days smoke and small fog effects were acheived via the heating of Sal Amoniac in a small pan. Very icky, dangerous, and noxious. If the Fire suppression system in your theatre is dependent on certain types of sensors , the glycol or mineral oil residue can be very disruptive. I think you may need to ask for a clarification as a hazer, say a DF-50 actually leaves more residue, especially on things high in the air, than a glycol based fogger does. Fog machine residue tends to settle, fall to the floor, Haze tends to rise and condense on things in the air. 
Just a quick primer for any who might not know, Fog fluid is generally an emulsification of glycol, suspended in water. When run through a fogger the water boils, the resulting steam is forced through the front nozzle, where, upon contact with the colder air, the water vapor immediately condenses and is encapsulated by the gylcol, or mineral oil. These resulting "beads" of vapor retain the opacity to read like fog. When they cool they fall, or they rupture releasing the water vapor, whilst the gycol plummets to Earth. Hazers tend to be Atomizers, or Nebulizers, and many work with no heat at all. They rely on forcing a water/glycol or water/mineral oil emulsification through a really really really ....really fine screen. This basically does the same thing as a fogger, but the individual "haze" particles are much, much,much smaller in diameter. So small in fact that they tend to hang in the air rising and fall on air currents and mini thermals. Since they are not dependent on the Endo-thermic < interior heat> energy of the water to rise. They can hang in the air a lot longer, Which brings me to the point of this post, which is, Left on it's own haze tends to condense on things like smoke sensors and lighting fixtures and truss, much more readily than chemical fog does. 
Besides, it's fun to argue with Fire Marshals, a little.


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## SHARYNF (Sep 10, 2007)

The problem is that fog will give you the effect you need, and can be cleared quickly and it is highly visible

Haze has to be very heavy for you to dramatically see it, takes longer to cover the area and also clear.

SHARYN


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## SerraAva (Sep 10, 2007)

How about an Antari X-310? Its a water based Fogger/Hazer combo which is DMX controlled. For a hazer its great, have used it in all sorts of venues, from bars, to party halls, to monster stages, arch is 65'w by 25'h and 32'd with a fly space going up to 70'. 
Fog, its ok for smaller spaces, larger one's its not powerful enough. Need to use more then one in larger spaces for dense fog. 
When I used it in that big space, just took a while to tweak it for even dispersion, but since you said that HVAC control is not a problem, you should be fine.
Link:http://www.elationlighting.com/product.asp?ProductIDNumber=1252&cat=Antari


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## BillESC (Sep 10, 2007)

As an alternative to using particulates, you can achieve a simular effect using lights.

The DMX Abyss for example simulates rippling water when in focus, out of focus you might just get a smokey effect.

Here is an infocus pic... remember this is an animated effect so the ripples move.


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## spong8 (Sep 10, 2007)

were you loking for this kind of effect? watch the whole video clip. it is a clip from the show corteo by cirque. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGPNPDW-YTU

i espicaly like the small clip at about 3:36 with the angel turning in the background.


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## Chaos is Born (Sep 10, 2007)

I'd love to have that scrim efect... but i can't use a scrim. We don't have the room for it to move fast enough. or even far enough out. I just want a slightly less amount of haze than what they had at some points.


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## TupeloTechie (Sep 10, 2007)

You could always use a roller style curtain to use the scrim.

This is from Gilletts's book "Stage Scenery."


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## Chaos is Born (Sep 11, 2007)

TupeloTechieKid said:


> You could always use a roller style curtain to use the scrim.
> This is from Gilletts's book "Stage Scenery."



Crossed my mind till i saw rehearsal and saw how quickly the director was having things shift between areas... 

If you are framilliar with "Rehearsal for Murder" this is the show we are doing. I'm almost at the point of striking the idea of haze due to the visual the director already having i think he wants it all to be done with lights and no sfx...


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## SHARYNF (Sep 11, 2007)

You can always have the scrim on the floor, and pull it up which can happen very quickly, My understanding is that open the traveler, and then they walk back into the past, you then drop it when the walk back into the present

the other thing that is done is that you have a split scrim, each overlaping a bit but one offset behind the other so that the actors walk from the present into the past via a passage way infront of say the left scrim and behind the right scrim.

Sharyn


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## Chaos is Born (Sep 11, 2007)

It would have to be the split scrim, and i really like that idea. Cause through the scene people walk between both areas so it couldn't be a solid scrim. I'll see what i can do with that idea.


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## SHARYNF (Sep 11, 2007)

GLAD TO HELP
Some of us never give up ;-)

What I have done in the past is not to use the traveler, instead use a split scrim in black and use lighting, where as you know if you front light it, it will appear solid, if you back light it it will appear transparent. works quite well for a transition from present into past or future 

Sharyn


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## adude23 (Sep 6, 2008)

Hmm If i had to do this I'd say if you had some black tabs upstage i'd close them at one point and then behind those i'd flood the area with haze bob's you uncle when you want haze just open the tabs the actors can step back into it all, I'd use alot of blue's and cold washes for the past and maby some soft spots depending on what was going on in the scene?
Just my two cents on the whole thing 
~Adude~


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## len (Sep 6, 2008)

Grog12 said:


> For once I find myself disagreeing with gaff...
> Stay away from LeMaitre....god i hate those machines. They don't work overly well...are clunky and a pain in the kiester.



I agree with you on the Neutron, but the Radiance is a whole different animal. IMO, the best unit in water based hazers available under $2000.

If you need to clear the deck and supplement your HVAC I'd try a couple vornado fans (available at home improvement stores) for under $100 for the pair. They move a lot of air in a short time.


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