# Codes dealing with hanging from sprinkler pipes?



## Sayen

I'm in a dispute with a local theater, who wants to hang lights on their sprinkler pipes. I've always believed this was against (NFPA?) code, and common sense, but now I'm being called out on it and need to prove that it's a Bad Idea. 

Do you have to purchase the NFPA to read it? I couldn't find actual codes.

I found a reference to NFPA 70 online, but no actual text, and was told this dealt specifically with lighting?

Another forum suggested OSHA might have something to say about non-standard/non-structural pipes being used to support lighting.

Any help? What's the worst that would happen if they were inspected/cited?


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## Dover

NFPA 70 is the electrical code, I think you need to look in the fire code. But the simplest answer is to call the local fire marshal and just ask. I think I know what they will say.


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## Chris15

If nothing else, ask for the load rating of the sprinkler pipes, I'll bet there is not a manufacturer or installer out there willing to give you a load capacity...


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## BillConnerFASTC

Ditto Dover on call to local authorities. NFPA 13 is the sprinkler standard and if you drill through the web site there is a free viewer edition, albeit free. I don't know if their web based help is limited to members only but that is an option. If stuck, contact me off line and I'll find the reference - but too busy till next week.


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## museav

I don't believe you'd be allowed to support any related cable from the sprinkler pipe per NFPA 70/NEC.


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## StradivariusBone

museav said:


> I don't believe you'd be allowed to support any related cable from the sprinkler pipe per NFPA 70/NEC.



I think you're right. From my days as a cable monkey I recall getting chewed out by the AHJ doing a walkthrough when we had ziptied Cat5e to the threaded rod holding the pipe. I can't quote code, but his take was that low voltage had to be suspended from the ceiling grid by it's own method. Tying on to sprinkler and/or ceiling grid wires was apparently out of line, which made it interesting when there weren't raceways or conduit installed. 

I can't imagine hanging a light from it.


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## Jay Ashworth

I can't cite it, but I absolutely guarantee you that you cannot hang anything -- much less anything *energized* -- from the sprinkler piping. Not even on the AHJ's birthday.

Or, um, today. ;-)


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## JChenault

Jay Ashworth said:


> I can't cite it, but I absolutely guarantee you that you cannot hang anything -- much less anything *energized* -- from the sprinkler piping. Not even on the AHJ's birthday.
> 
> Or, um, today. ;-)



Well I have hung the cages to protect the sprinkler head. But that's about it


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## techieman33

Jay Ashworth said:


> I can't cite it, but I absolutely guarantee you that you cannot hang anything -- much less anything *energized* -- from the sprinkler piping. Not even on the AHJ's birthday.
> 
> Or, um, today. ;-)



We all know it's a big no no, some people won't listen to common sense though and need to have the actual codes shown to them.


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## Jay Ashworth

Apologies to John; I assumed "that isn't directly related to the sprinkling mission" was obvious. 

NFPA 13-2002 9.1.1.7:

"Support of Non-System Components. Sprinkler piping or hangers shall not be used to support non-system components."

That seems definitive to me; I don't know if the section has changed in the latest revision, but I'm sure it's still in there.


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## Robert

My AHJ gave me the basic version of above and it went further in that," No trade (installer) may hang components off of another trade's."


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## Jay Ashworth

A good rule to follow, and it may be the distillation of each trade's codes, but I don't think it's a general law.

Note that 9.1.1.7 even prohibits *using the same hangers for other plumbing*, not just for electricity.


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## theatricalmatt

Since the OP asks, "What's the worse that could happen?" -- just imagine if the sprinkler system were to activate. It doesn't matter whether it's caused by hanging a light off of the sprinkler pipe, a stage technician bumping and triggering a sprinkler head, an actual emergency, or something entirely unrelated. The fire department *will* be called in, and anything suspicious (like a light hanging off of the sprinkler pipe) is going to be questioned. If the fire department sees it, if the sprinkler system has activated, they're going to report it to the insurance company. Neither one is going to view hanging off a sprinkler pipe, as opposed to another structure, in a positive fashion.

The only argument in its favor is one of convenience -- which is really just laziness. The potential drawbacks far exceed the work of having to take the lights down and hanging them someplace else, but may affect the cost of insurance coverage, or even permitting allowing performances to be given in the space.


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## museav

theatricalmatt said:


> Since the OP asks, "What's the worse that could happen?" -- just imagine if the sprinkler system were to activate. It doesn't matter whether it's caused by hanging a light off of the sprinkler pipe, a stage technician bumping and triggering a sprinkler head, an actual emergency, or something entirely unrelated. The fire department *will* be called in, and anything suspicious (like a light hanging off of the sprinkler pipe) is going to be questioned. If the fire department sees it, if the sprinkler system has activated, they're going to report it to the insurance company. Neither one is going to view hanging off a sprinkler pipe, as opposed to another structure, in a positive fashion.


I would argue that the worst that could happen would be for it to interfere with the proper operation of the sprinkler system. I'd much rather deal with the AHJ and insurers addressing resulting water damage than with their addressing associated injuries or deaths.

It should be noted that your scenario is not just conjecture, I was involved in a project where a week or so before opening a painter doing some last minute work set off the sprinkler head right over the audio racks that contained all the patching and electronics for their PM5D mixer and system DSP. Luckily they got everything dried out and working for the opening as with all the different parties involved it took a while to get the insurance settled so they could get replacements.


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## Jay Ashworth

They were /stunningly/ lucky; I am told that what stands in sprinkler pipes is the exact opposite of distilled water. 

Sent from my SPH-L720


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## StradivariusBone

They could always switch to Halon. Gaseous fire suppression - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I worked in a few places that used that for their server rooms. Very effective, but pretty terrifying. You can still run/walk/crawl out while the sprinklers are going, inert gas not so much.


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## Jay Ashworth

Not anymore. Halon's jo longer legal for new installs, I don't think.

I liked Ansul Inergen, myself. But that may not be available anymore either.

Sent from my SPH-L720


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## Dionysus

Jay Ashworth said:


> Not anymore. Halon's jo longer legal for new installs, I don't think.
> 
> I liked Ansul Inergen, myself. But that may not be available anymore either.
> 
> Sent from my SPH-L720


Not sure about in your area, but when I had my Fire Alarm etc training (yeah I install them, not the sprinklers) Halon was for extreme situations only. And rightly so, anyone who is trapped inside who can't get to an oxygen mask is a little screwed. So fewer uses in commercial buildings. Deluge system are FAR more common (not that you want one of those in a sever room :O)

As for hanging from sprinkler pipes, NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER hang ANYTHING from sprinkler pipes, you can't hang ANYTHING off of them. Same goes with Natural Gas lines for that matter.


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## Jay Ashworth

Sure; mainly datacenters. Why Inergen was a good idea; breathable but wont support combustion.

Sent from my SPH-L720


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## StradivariusBone

Certain breeds of Halon were "breathable" (at least more so than CO2) too if I recall, just the issues with the ozone layer driving the bus to change course.


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## Jay Ashworth

Nope. Halon works by displacing all the oxygen in the room, down to 0.

Inergen has oxygen, but below combustion limits, some replaced by noble gases.

Why Halon required locking doors and alarms and oh crap buttons inside.

Sent from my SPH-L720


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## StradivariusBone

Halon 1301 works by disrupting the chemical reaction of the fire itself and does so at pretty low concentrations, well below any deleterious effects on humans. The worst it does is make you dizzy/out of it. Unfortunately, it is a CFC and is bad for the ozone layer, hence the ban on making more of it. On the other hand, CO2 at concentrations enough to stop a fire will kill you.


> Halon is clean (i.e., leaves no residue) and is remarkably safe for human exposure. Halon is a highly effective agent for firefighting in closed passenger carrying areas.




> It is a common misconception that Halon, like CO2, "removes oxygen from the air."
> 
> According to the Halon Alternative Research Corporation (Halon Alternatives Research Corporation "Three things must come together at the same time to start a fire. The first ingredient is fuel (anything that can burn), the second is oxygen and the last is an ignition source. Traditionally, to stop a fire you need to remove one side of the triangle-the ignition, the fuel or the oxygen. Halon adds a fourth dimension to fire fighting-breaking the chain reaction. It stops the fuel, the ignition and the oxygen from working together by chemically reacting with them."



What is Halon? How does Halon Work? Is Halon legal? Is Halon Safe?


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## Jay Ashworth

[Looks]

Yup. I was worng. Damn.

Wonder why all the fuss and alarum attached to a Halo discharge, then...

Sent from my SPH-L720


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## Jay Ashworth

For the record, though, I didn't allege that it removed oxygen from the air, but that it displaced enough air to reduce the oxygen concentration below the oxidizer range, a slightly different issue.

Sent from my SPH-L720


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## StradivariusBone

It would have to create a vacuum to do that or chemically alter the oxygen itself. I know there are CO2 extinguishing systems in areas that people don't usually enter and require no-damage methods of suppression, maybe the bells and whistles are a holdover from that? In any event, while it won't kill you, it's not necessarily a great thing to be breathing in along with whatever chemicals are becoming airborne during the combustion of metal, plastic and silicon.  

We used to run cable in plenum ceilings and the AHJ would require plenum-rated cable and zip ties which I found amusing since I imagine inhaling the fumes from a piece of Cat 5 would probably be the least of my worries when the buildings on fire.


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## Jay Ashworth

No, just expand enough to push enough air out so the 21% O2 drops below... I think Ansul sez it's 18 or 19%...

Sent from my SPH-L720


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## cdub260

At my venue, we had a polystyrene toy parrot zip tied to one of our sprinkler pipes. The thing weighed maybe a few ounces and in no way interfered with the operation of the sprinkler system. Our AHJ made us remove it.


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## What Rigger?

Codes are awesome, but there's also this: you go look in any and every hotel/motel room worth staying in and you will see signs posted telling you to not hang clothing (or anything) on the sprinkler heads in the room. Your average TapouT tuxedo, or stripper clothes...uh, I mean "nicest dress"...is all it takes to set off the system. A good friend actually caused this to happen once. Irony is: he became a firefighter.

And for the record, most of the "strippers" walking around the casino, screaming "VEEEEEGAAAS BAAAAAYYYYBEEEEE!" are 2nd grade teachers from Ohio.


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## Timothy A. Samuelson

So, side topic: We are finishing out the build out on a 1921 space in Downtown Little Rock. Greatest thing to happen to the theatre community here in years. We've been plagued with permit issues, design issues, code issues, etc. We are equipped with an older sprinkler system as well as a new $8,000 particle detection system with strobes and horns. Don't get me wrong, as a TD, safety is my number one concern at all times, but I'm pretty sure we might have the safest building in LR. With that being said, here's my question:

My sprinkler is the older system that has wax in the heads. When the wax melts, it opens the pressurized water line, and thus, we are ready for Singin' in the Rain. My battens are hung from the ceiling approximately 6 inches below the level of the sprinkler lines. I'm a little scared that my lights (12 Pars and 4 Source 4s) might create enough heat to melt the wax. Is my fear tangible or should I stop worrying?


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## JerseyMatt

I highly doubt they are wax. Deluge heads use either a liquid filled glass capsule or a solder ribbon as activators. At a predetermined temperature (ie: 155, 170, 195, 205 degrees) the capsule bursts or the ribbon melts, allowing water pressure to open the 'pip' (the copper plug holding the water back). First thing you have to do is look at the 'rosette' - the flower shaped piece at the bottom - and see what the activation temperature is. The lower it is, the more concerned you need to be. In open, moving air it's unlikely to be an issue.. But if the air is stagnant, a 10,000 watt heat source could be a problem for a lower temperature head in the vicinity.


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## JChenault

And you can get the heads swapped out for ones with a highest temp by your sprinkler company. You can tp get them up,tp 625 degrees.

I'm assuming you have protective cages around the heads? ( to make sure you don't bash them with a piece of scenery? ). If not those can be retrofitted as well.


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## BillConnerFASTC

JerseyMatt said:


> I highly doubt they are wax. Deluge heads use either a liquid filled glass capsule or a solder ribbon as activators.



Just a trivial correction but "deluge" in sprinkler terms are open sprinkler on a dry pipe that flow when a valve is opened, and don't depend on heat activation, and of course all sprinklers in one deluge system all flow at once. Quite the opposite where normally only the sprinkler or sprinklers that are heated flow.


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## BillConnerFASTC

Timothy A. Samuelson said:


> So, side topic: We are finishing out the build out on a 1921 space in Downtown Little Rock.



Wow. 95 years. I thought some of my projects took a long time but I think the longest was 13 years.


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## kiwitechgirl

Timothy A. Samuelson said:


> My sprinkler is the older system that has wax in the heads. When the wax melts, it opens the pressurized water line, and thus, we are ready for Singin' in the Rain. My battens are hung from the ceiling approximately 6 inches below the level of the sprinkler lines. I'm a little scared that my lights (12 Pars and 4 Source 4s) might create enough heat to melt the wax. Is my fear tangible or should I stop worrying?



I set off a sprinkler head this way - but it was a Selecon Pacific with the heat sink DIRECTLY under the sprinkler head (don't ask....it was a Superheroes and Supervillains themed birthday party in the bar of the theatre I worked in and we'd made a Bat-light gobo - failed to notice that the sprinkler head was right above the lighting bar when we hung the Pacific), and it had been on at 100% for almost three hours before there was enough heat to trigger the sprinkler. Also it was a 55 degree Celsius head. The water that came out was pretty disgusting.


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## BillConnerFASTC

There was an incident at the golden globes award. http://tv.msn.com/golden-globes/red-carpet-sprinkler-incident/story/


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## de27192

Introducing the fire marshal to the theatre might be an interesting experience to say the least. Companies installing sprinkler systems in theatres have a habit of doing it as inconveniently as possible for everyone else as long as it makes it more convenient for them to install. (Same attitude as the HVAC contractors).


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## de27192

kiwitechgirl said:


> I set off a sprinkler head this way - but it was a Selecon Pacific with the heat sink DIRECTLY under the sprinkler head (don't ask....it was a Superheroes and Supervillains themed birthday party in the bar of the theatre I worked in and we'd made a Bat-light gobo - failed to notice that the sprinkler head was right above the lighting bar when we hung the Pacific), and it had been on at 100% for almost three hours before there was enough heat to trigger the sprinkler. Also it was a 55 degree Celsius head. The water that came out was pretty disgusting.



I think you still come second place to a British stagehand in a well known concert hall who hung his jacket on the drencher handle and then end of load in grabbed his jacket and yanked it off and did the obvious. Drencher had been there since dinosaurs roamed outside, he said because it looked old he assumed it didn't do anything anymore. He was wrong.


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