# Cloud concert shell upgrade



## Matt W (Sep 29, 2016)

I have 3 floating concert shell clouds in my space. the Major issue is that who ever designed the building thought it was a great Idea to position the cloud so that it covers my electrics. right now the only option I have for top light is to run lights to a open line. this comes with the problem that I then have to run 2 lines at the same time. I have started talking with a manufacturer about getting a new set that has the lights already installed. This would be a huge improvement over what we have now and would require the lest amount of work on my part but would come with a giant price tag. 

my question to you all is: Have you ever installed your own lights in an existing sound cloud? I had a bit of an a-ha moment where i thought about buying my own S4 pars to install in my existing shell. this would mean that i would have to cut a hole in the shell, run the cable and find a way to mount the lights. when it comes to storing the lights in the cloud it looks like we have the room for them but I would proly just pull the lights when not in use just in case someone managed to snag a curtain with one. 

The shell appears to be 3/4" ply with some veneer on top.

what do you all think? would the wise move be to just have the new shell made or should I press my luck and install my own.


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## RonHebbard (Sep 29, 2016)

Matt W said:


> I have 3 floating concert shell clouds in my space. the Major issue is that who ever designed the building thought it was a great Idea to position the cloud so that it covers my electrics. right now the only option I have for top light is to run lights to a open line. this comes with the problem that I then have to run 2 lines at the same time. I have started talking with a manufacturer about getting a new set that has the lights already installed. This would be a huge improvement over what we have now and would require the lest amount of work on my part but would come with a giant price tag.
> 
> my question to you all is: Have you ever installed your own lights in an existing sound cloud? I had a bit of an a-ha moment where i thought about buying my own S4 pars to install in my existing shell. this would mean that i would have to cut a hole in the shell, run the cable and find a way to mount the lights. when it comes to storing the lights in the cloud it looks like we have the room for them but I would proly just pull the lights when not in use just in case someone managed to snag a curtain with one.
> 
> ...


Assuming your clouds are counter-weighted, do you have the arbor capacity to counterbalance the additional weight of your proposed lighting and cabling?
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.


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## Matt W (Sep 29, 2016)

RonHebbard said:


> Assuming your clouds are counter-weighted, do you have the arbor capacity to counterbalance the additional weight of your proposed lighting and cabling?
> Toodleoo!
> Ron Hebbard.




I have about 3' of space left on the arbor with plenty of pigs hanging around.


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## microstar (Sep 29, 2016)

I suppose moving the shell to different battens wouldn't help?


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## RonHebbard (Sep 29, 2016)

Matt W said:


> I have about 3' of space left on the arbor with plenty of pigs hanging around.


Then I think I'd vote for adding your own lights when convenient to your schedules so long as you've the skills and tooling to make a legal, code compliant, workmanlike job of it. I've always found it easier to control the spread of mess when creating it than to have to clean it off of velour after the fact. Few outside contractors will worry about how clean they leave your space after they're gone and paid.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Sep 29, 2016)

I'm not crazy about the idea of installing lights permanently in this shells (if that is what you mean). There will be balance problems - tilting for storage. That style of shell was not designed for lights installed. The clamps, hangers, pivots, and framing all have to be checked to be sure they are strong enough.

It would be better if the the rigging was adjusted to center shells between electrics, basically redesign the layout, minimizing actual moves of a set.

One other option - come up a way to easily mount LEDs on pipes already between shells and just portable cable for one circuit. The ColorSource PAR might be a good choice. Budget minded might be the Kreios FLX - no dimming but great color and light.


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## Footer (Sep 29, 2016)

I probably wouldn't do it due to weight issues as Bill said. That style of shell is rather temporary. If you had a larger shell that was purpose built this wouldn't be an issue.

Side note... please tell me by running "two lines at the same time" you don't mean you hang lights on one pipe while plugging them into a raceway on another pipe. If you are doing that now and its the only solution you can think of this needs to now be put at priority one to be fixed. 

Easy option would be 10 or so chroma Q Force D 72's. Would do what you need and won't eat up flyspace. Either that or you need to get more dimmers or a craptop of soca to export/import all those circuits safely. Either that or just stop using the shell until this gets fixed. Its not going to be a cheap fix. You need at least 30k to fix this.


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## chausman (Sep 29, 2016)

Footer said:


> Side note... please tell me by running "two lines at the same time" you don't mean you hang lights on one pipe while plugging them into a raceway on another pipe. If you are doing that now and its the only solution you can think of this needs to now be put at priority one to be fixed.



Why is that a major problem?


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## BillConnerFASTC (Sep 30, 2016)

This is fundamentally going to be a budget issue. I guess if you can get a whole new shell ceiling - 3 clouds with lights and the electrical work to connect them and do the control and cable management, why not. I do wonder if that amount if money might not be better spent solving what I suspect are other shortcomings in the design, but can't tell from this distance. I'd guess the replacement project is in the $50,000-75,000 range, if there are no hitches.


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## Footer (Sep 30, 2016)

chausman said:


> Why is that a major problem?



Really? 

You should never have two pipes physically connected together in any way unless you have both the pipes and arbors properly married. The system has to run as one otherwise you run the risk of very bad things happening if something does not get moved right. Cable pulls out... electrical connections open up... things short... fire happens. 

The only real way to do this is to grab the circuits you need, run them off the end of the pipe, drop them to the deck or mid-rail, then drop the cable to the other pipe.... leaving proper swags of course.


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## MarshallPope (Sep 30, 2016)

Footer said:


> Really?
> 
> You should never have two pipes physically connected together in any way unless you have both the pipes and arbors properly married. The system has to run as one otherwise you run the risk of very bad things happening if something does not get moved right. Cable pulls out... electrical connections open up... things short... fire happens.
> 
> The only real way to do this is to grab the circuits you need, run them off the end of the pipe, drop them to the deck or mid-rail, then drop the cable to the other pipe.... leaving proper swags of course.


As long as the linesets are properly locked out/tagged out, I see no issue with soft-marrying them in most cases, as long as the venue has a culture of safety wherein someone ignoring the DNO isn't a reasonable worry.


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## RonHebbard (Sep 30, 2016)

MarshallPope said:


> As long as the linesets are properly locked out/tagged out, I see no issue with soft-marrying them in most cases, as long as the venue has a culture of safety wherein someone ignoring the DNO isn't a reasonable worry.




Footer said:


> Really?
> 
> You should never have two pipes physically connected together in any way unless you have both the pipes and arbors properly married. The system has to run as one otherwise you run the risk of very bad things happening if something does not get moved right. Cable pulls out... electrical connections open up... things short... fire happens.
> 
> The only real way to do this is to grab the circuits you need, run them off the end of the pipe, drop them to the deck or mid-rail, then drop the cable to the other pipe.... leaving proper swags of course.


And invert the swags with spot lines if necessary to keep the wings clear for taller items.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.


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## Footer (Sep 30, 2016)

MarshallPope said:


> As long as the linesets are properly locked out/tagged out, I see no issue with soft-marrying them in most cases, as long as the venue has a culture of safety wherein someone ignoring the DNO isn't a reasonable worry.



Any venue that would do this doesn't have a culture of safety.


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## StradivariusBone (Sep 30, 2016)

One thing to consider if going the retrofit route- our shells have four PAR64's in each unit and have built-in tilt switches that disconnect power to the lamps when it rotates up. This prevents them from being powered on accidentally when in the store position.


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## Footer (Sep 30, 2016)

StradivariusBone said:


> One thing to consider if going the retrofit route- our shells have four PAR64's in each unit and have built-in tilt switches that disconnect power to the lamps when it rotates up. This prevents them from being powered on accidentally when in the store position.



Something like this: http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/2003896.pdf?_ga=1.28316731.605242824.1475279856

Look for a model more closely tied to your needed load... or find someone getting rid of footlights.


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## StradivariusBone (Sep 30, 2016)

Footer said:


> Something like this: http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/2003896.pdf?_ga=1.28316731.605242824.1475279856
> 
> Look for a model more closely tied to your needed load... or find someone getting rid of footlights.



I haven't taken ours apart, but I suspect that's very similar to what's in there. It looks like we've got one per circuit (aka per 2 PARs). They look a lot cheaper than the building burning down in any event.


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## Footer (Sep 30, 2016)

StradivariusBone said:


> I haven't taken ours apart, but I suspect that's very similar to what's in there. It looks like we've got one per circuit (aka per 2 PARs). They look a lot cheaper than the building burning down in any event.


 I have about 60 of them that we ripped of our footlights when we removed them. No idea why I kept them... but I wanted to keep them.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Sep 30, 2016)

I don't think any manufacturer puts mercury switches in shells any more. The Wenger switch is clever. It's a decora style paddle switch in a box with a steel roller - like 2" diameter cylinder 2" long - tools to off or on end as shell tilts.

I believe the primary concern is fire, which is greatly alleviated by using LED lights, which also simplifies cable management.


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## venuetech (Oct 1, 2016)

I would explore options for moving them to other line sets. You would want to get with an experienced rigging company for an inspection and to come up with a workable plan. I have a similar ceiling but it was well placed to allow the electrics to still provide light. If need be i can fly the E's in to change a lamp with out too much fuss. from the look of it you may end up with just two or instead of 6' tall remove the lower panel and have just a 4' tall cloud unit. since you are are already in touch with the manufacturer ask them what is the best way to modify what you have so your electrics and shell can both work together. No doubt they will try to sell you a brand new ceiling with fixtures installed but you just need a workable solution.


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## Matt W (Oct 3, 2016)

microstar said:


> I suppose moving the shell to different battens wouldn't help?



not really. The arbors on the other lines are not tall enough to take the weight needed. Good idea though.


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## Matt W (Oct 3, 2016)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> I'm not crazy about the idea of installing lights permanently in this shells (if that is what you mean). There will be balance problems - tilting for storage. That style of shell was not designed for lights installed. The clamps, hangers, pivots, and framing all have to be checked to be sure they are strong enough.
> 
> It would be better if the the rigging was adjusted to center shells between electrics, basically redesign the layout, minimizing actual moves of a set.
> 
> One other option - come up a way to easily mount LEDs on pipes already between shells and just portable cable for one circuit. The ColorSource PAR might be a good choice. Budget minded might be the Kreios FLX - no dimming but great color and light.




Looking at the options suggested I believe i will just bee flying in an empty line set and jumping some cables from the electrics or some other source.. We are in the process of upgrading to the Color source pars for our electrics but this it to far in the future.

the more i think about just mounting the lights to the existing surface more issues are pointed out and i think of other problems. (like if i pulled power from the electrics then i need to run out the sound shell and the electric at the same time.)


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## Matt W (Oct 3, 2016)

Footer said:


> Really?
> 
> You should never have two pipes physically connected together in any way unless you have both the pipes and arbors properly married. The system has to run as one otherwise you run the risk of very bad things happening if something does not get moved right. Cable pulls out... electrical connections open up... things short... fire happens.
> 
> The only real way to do this is to grab the circuits you need, run them off the end of the pipe, drop them to the deck or mid-rail, then drop the cable to the other pipe.... leaving proper swags of course.




to help you sleep better I've had plenty of training on marrying lines. It would be a thing of last resort though. The lines can be locked out and I'm the only one with a key.


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## Matt W (Oct 3, 2016)

StradivariusBone said:


> One thing to consider if going the retrofit route- our shells have four PAR64's in each unit and have built-in tilt switches that disconnect power to the lamps when it rotates up. This prevents them from being powered on accidentally when in the store position.



I was thinking of having a Soca run that would break out at a nearby box or jumping the cables from another line. so the Circuits aren't tied up but a switch wouldn't hurt either.


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## JChenault (Oct 3, 2016)

Matt W said:


> not really. The arbors on the other lines are not tall enough to take the weight needed. Good idea though.




Would it be cost effective to shift the heavy line sets ( that hold the shell) to a better location? ( assuming that would solve the issue )


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## BillConnerFASTC (Oct 3, 2016)

Matt W said:


> not really. The arbors on the other lines are not tall enough to take the weight needed. Good idea though.


Several suggestions here for rearrangement of rigging. Its not that hard - for qualified riggers - to swap arbors. Might be least expensive of the fixes. It would be serendipitous if it also happened to be time to replace lift lines and hand lines. Know the vintage of the system?


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## lwinters630 (Oct 5, 2016)

Matt W said:


> I have 3 floating concert shell clouds in my space. the Major issue is that who ever designed the building thought it was a great Idea to position the cloud so that it covers my electrics. right now the only option I have for top light is to run lights to a open line. this comes with the problem that I then have to run 2 lines at the same time. I have started talking with a manufacturer about getting a new set that has the lights already installed. This would be a huge improvement over what we have now and would require the lest amount of work on my part but would come with a giant price tag.
> 
> my question to you all is: Have you ever installed your own lights in an existing sound cloud? I had a bit of an a-ha moment where i thought about buying my own S4 pars to install in my existing shell. this would mean that i would have to cut a hole in the shell, run the cable and find a way to mount the lights. when it comes to storing the lights in the cloud it looks like we have the room for them but I would proly just pull the lights when not in use just in case someone managed to snag a curtain with one.
> 
> ...


I have those style clouds. When tilted in place they fall between the 2nd and 3rd electric and they just clear for down/top light. 
Perhaps your clouds were moved? If so just put them back to the original batten.


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## StradivariusBone (Oct 5, 2016)

Matt W said:


> I was thinking of having a Soca run that would break out at a nearby box or jumping the cables from another line. so the Circuits aren't tied up but a switch wouldn't hurt either.



That's kinda how ours are run. It ties up four circuits total, but there are two double deep junction boxes on each shell that has an Edison outlet on it. There's a pig tail coming out of the junction with stage pin that's tied to the frame of the shell with enough strain relief so it can rotate. I've never dismantled it, but I'm assuming the tilt switch is inside the junction. Of course, this was done 20 years ago, I wouldn't be surprised if Bill has some updated codes that might make this setup not ideal


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## BillConnerFASTC (Oct 5, 2016)

I still believe it only makes sense to go LED - one constant circuit (cold be a home depot cable reel) and go wireless for DMX. For a little extra cost of the fixtures, no dimmers, no re-plugging, no fire danger, no re-lamping, and - not a stretch with for instance the ColorSource PAR - you get color. The music people will love it. One Socapex pair and multi-cable is going to pay for a fixture and it only means more work.

This is 2016 - stand up, be heard, and leave the the last half of the last century behind. I'll bet the other academic departments and especially the athletic program has. Enlist some dram and music parents theatre as aggressive as the athletes' parents to help. here are too many people in the theatre side of performing arts - because music and to some degree dance dose better - that seem to want to be the shoe makers kid.

I guess I get fed up with users on projects volunteering to give things up when they should - like every other discipline - be asking for more. This is in large part why so many high school theaters suck.


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