# Interesting Debate: Masters degree or Three Associates + strong CV/Resume



## neotrotsky (May 29, 2012)

I was complaining (as I am known to do when the work is slow... it's my nature ) about having to work full time and do full time class loads in order to get two more degrees nailed by the next spring, and one of our student workers was saying how an Associate's degree is a "worthless" degree, and I should just focus on a masters if I were "serious". One of our administrative staff also chimed in wondering why I wasn't exploring a higher singular degree and instead going for two more associates.

My reasoning is that, while I am versed in the subjects of each degree (Audio Engineering and Business), I don't have the certification on paper that SAYS I do. I have a resume that obviously backs this up else I wouldn't be working where I do, but that doesn't always tell the full story. Also, I can honestly say that ever since going back to school my work has improved by miles! I may of been an "old hand" at stuff like live sound, but after diving head first into subjects like Ableton Live application and Copyright law, I cannot tell you how much better my shows have become. An old dog can learn new tricks!

This all leads to an interesting argument: While I feel several "certification" degrees backed by nearly 15 years in related fields may be a perfect fit for someone of a Technical Director path, would that be on par, below or above in desire than someone with a Masters with only a few years experience going for the same position? To me, anyone who strives to get any degree in what they love are already better than the majority of the population who either just coast along or get "easy" degrees that they know they can get jobs at but have no passion for. Also, the money difference between the two paths is quite stark: It's flat out cheaper for me to get two more Associates in fields I *know* I will use at a City College level than to pay nearly 6 times the price at a University that may only devote 3 to 6 credits towards each discipline while I have to take other courses that have little to no bearing on the real-life applications of a director. 

At this point I'm already set on my path (that and grad school would kill my marriage. I know it.), but it is interesting to hear other views. We have been talking about me looking into larger markets for better pay, and neither me or my wife are comfortable living in Arizona any longer. But, I still have alot of work to do. If I'm going to look towards the future of getting out of here, am I stocking up on the right ammo for the fight?


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## len (May 29, 2012)

IMO, it depends on what you plan to do. In the technical, production world, hands on experience and being able to do stuff is the best qualification. People don't get re-hired because of their degrees, but because they can get the show up.

But there's certainly nothing wrong with advanced education for some disciplines. My dad has 2 master's degrees, and both my kids will probably get a post-grad something as well. Because their respective fields demand it.


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## neotrotsky (May 29, 2012)

My return to school is actually in reaction to what the industry used to "demand". I'm of the generation that said you graduate, do a few years in military if your parents weren't rich enough to pay for school, get a Bachelors and you'll be set. Fast forward to the 21st century and I get my tacos every lunch from a guy with three times the education six times the student debt I have! I think the more fields get specialized the more we face the need to custom tailor education standards. Of course, now there's a degree program for things that probably shouldn't require degree programs (video game design, wedding planning, image consulting, etc) but exist simply to bilk money out of people who still have that "You MUST have a degree" drive. It's terrifying in the job market these days to think that you'll lose a gig because you didn't get the right pieces of paper. Happened to me when I got laid off, and I am paying for it still 4 years later. 

The question is how much is enough? That may never be answered but there has been a marked drive by many universities and a sharp rise in the for-profit corporate colleges to scare people into paying more and more for advanced degrees as if they were the golden ticket. But, as we've seen with the recession, degrees don't get you the gigs by themselves without a solid resume and a strong CV. The question I suppose is where is the balance, or does such a thing as balance exist anymore like it did 15 years ago when our advisers were telling us what institution to resign ourselves into debt inthe name of future success?


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## cbrandt (May 29, 2012)

I would fall back on the old song that if you want to work in education or similar, you'll want that masters to look good on paper.

That being said, if someone came to my company with 3 degrees and 15 years of experience, the only debate there would be is how much can we afford to pay the guy, and can we make a job for him to do. In my eyes, on the production and live event side, having someone that knows a bit about everything, and has solid experience is pure gold. I certainly didn't get hired for my degree, although I value the experience. 

I wouldn't go back to school for an associates for anything other than personal development. I don't think it would add on to my resume.


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## Lyons (May 29, 2012)

Is that the Colin I think it is?

In relation to this conversation, my work history has been more important than my education. But my education was also the start of my work history. 

I would guess if you wanted to teach a Masters would help. Brandt brings up a good point that over education can also hurt for hiring, not to mention the debt load.


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## Footer (May 29, 2012)

This is my opinion, so take it at that. 

If I saw a person with stacked 2 year degrees I would think that I have a person who can't make up what they want to do so they tried a bit of everything. 3 associates would not make me hire anyone any faster then one, regardless of the field. I also think the same thing about people with multiple bachelors degrees. 

Granted, my head flyman does not have anything besides his high school diploma. One of my electricians has a masters. My head electrician has a theatre degree with an emphasis in dance. One of my audio guys also has his masters. Another audio guy has no degree besides high school. A degree is not what gets you work from me, what you do when your on deck is what gets you more work. My boss did not even know what degree I had until I told him 3 weeks ago (and I have worked for him for 3 years). No one in this industry really cares about degrees besides the people who have them. If someone would not hire you because you did not have the paper, screw them... go work somewhere else. Yes, it is hard to break into a new market without the paper but I am not sure an associates would help. Most people who did the 4 year thing believe associates are fake degrees. I know that is wrong, but it is the truth. In the age of University of Phoenix/Devry/ITT Tech/Broadcast Center it really waters down the pool. 

I also think a masters is useless unless you want to teach. Hell, besides getting my first gig my BFA is also useless (though I am still paying for it...). In this industry what you did last is the most important thing, period. You got that, you are set.


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## gafftaper (May 31, 2012)

Totally agree with Footer. Do some searching in this forum for my usual rants about education not being the golden ticket that it is in other industries. Get your degree and get to work. Accumulating more debt is going to hurt you a lot more than stacks of degrees.


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## neotrotsky (Jun 1, 2012)

cbrandt said:


> I would fall back on the old song that if you want to work in education or similar, you'll want that masters to look good on paper.
> 
> That being said, if someone came to my company with 3 degrees and 15 years of experience, the only debate there would be is how much can we afford to pay the guy, and can we make a job for him to do. In my eyes, on the production and live event side, having someone that knows a bit about everything, and has solid experience is pure gold. I certainly didn't get hired for my degree, although I value the experience.
> 
> I wouldn't go back to school for an associates for anything other than personal development. I don't think it would add on to my resume.



This is the reasoning why I pulled the trigger on going back to school: I'm not some dim, freshly graduated-from-high-school kid. I'm a casualty of the recession, and after dealing with the university employment system, it gave me a gimpse into the perverse methods that are used to determine someone for employment, and how the higher up in the food chain you go, the less people from your field actually have anything to do with your employment.

I'm not bothering with education that doesn't bennifiet me. I'm too old to waste time with that. As I said before, with my current program at a REAL college (not some IIT joke or other corporate college excuse) I've actually gained quite a bit more utility to my skills. It's been quite an eye opener, and I've even been able to land some other gigs with connections through the professors for lighting work  It's been great for networking and has driven me into a different focus for show production jobs, which in the end is pretty good.

The key I think is to diversify with relevancy to your career. As a Technical Director, I'm not going to waste time on certifications that don't apply to aspects of my job. Yes, I'm concerned with looking like I'm just jumping all over the map if I don't plan it right. But, when my resume goes past the department and off to HR and the Provost and who knows what other department, they think in corporate terms and papers that state what certifications are what, not giving a **** what's in the CV or who the names are who produced the shows you've worked. They are as ignorant to show production as the cashier at Target. But, to find that fine line that shows the venue what I can REALLY do, and what will show the office drones and head bees what looks good on paper and the point where both meet... that is my end goal. And, of course, not everyone career path will work the same way. But, it's an interesting point to think about. 

And so far, it has got me more gigs and I'm not even finished with everything until next year.


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## museav (Jun 11, 2012)

Footer said:


> No one in this industry really cares about degrees besides the people who have them. If someone would not hire you because you did not have the paper, screw them... go work somewhere else.




Footer said:


> I also think a masters is useless unless you want to teach. Hell, besides getting my first gig my BFA is also useless (though I am still paying for it...). In this industry what you did last is the most important thing, period. You got that, you are set.


I agree with Len and would warn that "this industry" potentially covers a wide range of roles and areas of practice and it may be very dependent on which areas or roles you want to pursue. For example, in some areas of the industry a degree from an Audio Engineering program may represent some significant value while in other areas or roles it may have little value while an actual Engineering degree would be valued and in yet others neither might be perceived as being of much value.


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## neotrotsky (Jun 11, 2012)

museav said:


> I agree with Len and would warn that "this industry" potentially covers a wide range of roles and areas of practice and it may be very dependent on which areas or roles you want to pursue. For example, in some areas of the industry a degree from an Audio Engineering program may represent some significant value while in other areas or roles it may have little value while an actual Engineering degree would be valued and in yet others neither might be perceived as being of much value.



As far as being vaulable beyond actually learning how to do the thing, Administrators and HR don't look at resumes. They look at paper. This is they biggest key to consideration I suppose. I'm hardly worried about applying at a gig to the TD: I hand them my CV and Resume and fill in the gaps if they have questions. The trick is AFTER that TD... the waves upon waves of administrators and pencil pushers, especially when you work for a venue associated with a city or a university. 

It's also one of those situations, such as with my current job at a university, where that "piece of paper" made a difference in my hiring or not. And, I don't know ANYONE who has the luxury to say "Screw it" and *look for somewhere else to work* That is a luxury I don't think anyone in this industry has. To have such a cavalier attitude that you're too good for every bureaucracy is not good for the career. Sometimes, to get the best advantage you need to play the paper game. The question is what papers in what order. Such a banal game, but one that needs played.


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## josh88 (Jun 11, 2012)

I would say depending on your skills and area some actually can say screw it. I'm in an area where I've had multiple options now and could quit and probably get snatched up by someone else. But never bank on that or assume that's the case. I've got benefits now and I'm living rent free, so there may be better jobs I could go take but the extras keep me here.


Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk


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## Footer (Jun 11, 2012)

neotrotsky said:


> As far as being vaulable beyond actually learning how to do the thing, Administrators and HR don't look at resumes. They look at paper. This is they biggest key to consideration I suppose. I'm hardly worried about applying at a gig to the TD: I hand them my CV and Resume and fill in the gaps if they have questions. The trick is AFTER that TD... the waves upon waves of administrators and pencil pushers, especially when you work for a venue associated with a city or a university.
> 
> It's also one of those situations, such as with my current job at a university, where that "piece of paper" made a difference in my hiring or not. And, I don't know ANYONE who has the luxury to say "Screw it" and *look for somewhere else to work* That is a luxury I don't think anyone in this industry has. To have such a cavalier attitude that you're too good for every bureaucracy is not good for the career. Sometimes, to get the best advantage you need to play the paper game. The question is what papers in what order. Such a banal game, but one that needs played.



University's have artist in residence because they know not everyone will have that piece of paper. Secondary ed has "alternate routes" to getting a teaching cert. This is also one of the reasons that ETCP came into existence. 

I have had the luxury of saying "screw it, I'm outa here" several times. I almost got screwed over because of it, but I did do it and made it out OK. Yes, I had some sleepless nights but that is life. Several other people around here have done the exact same thing. I still go to work every day knowing that all of my belongings can fit into the back of a 24' penske and go anywhere in the country at any time. There is _always _some other gig you can go to. 

I am also starting to believe that with all the issues around education we are going to start seeing more and more people forgo college all together and just start working in the production world. More education is not the answer to furthering your career like it once was. There is no reason to incur more debt to get farther in your career. If no one will hire you because of a piece of paper, go somewhere else. The people that care about paper are starting to become fewer and fewer. Hell, many people with the degree like myself are starting to wake up to this fact. College costs to much. This industry pays to little to pay for living expenses and college loans. The university I attended has raised tuition 40% since I left. I really feel bad for the kids who just graduated who now get to go out into the world with 40% more student loan debt then I have and try to make it. Let alone the kids who did not have parents helping them or good scholarships.


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## ruinexplorer (Jun 12, 2012)

The main reason which I would encourage students to go with a higher education is the ability to refine their professionalism. This is one instance where a traditional university/college has the advantage over a trade school. As well, the Bachelor of Arts will often trump the Bachelor of Fine Arts. It drives me insane when I read things written by college graduates who do not know how to match tenses in their sentences or the difference between and adverb and an adjective. The ability to master the language of your land is crucial to succeeding beyond the basics. You may become the big fish of a small pond, but if you fail to communicate properly, you will ultimately fail in advancing to higher (and potentially better paying) positions. Granted, these skills should have been mastered upon completion of high school (or equivalent), but it is evident that this is not the case. Unfortunately, just getting the college education, even to the point of being a teacher, does not guarantee these results. 

The reason why a more rounded education can be beneficial, as opposed to specialty education, is that you can become a better citizen. One of the original purposes of extended education was to build leaders. This came about through learning about other cultures and developing critical thinking skills. Why do you think that higher education used to be exclusively for the elite? It was not just who could afford it, but who required it. Later on, it became a "right", which in turn diminished the quality of the education, except for those who could go to the elite academies. Finally, we arrive today, where education is just another commodity. This in turn is why so many of us are not cheerleaders for education, it does not hold the value of the investment, even though there is the potential. 

So, for my opinion on getting associate's degrees over a master's degree, I say go for it if you are looking to add additional skills and have the paper to back it up. A master's degree could potentially get you more credibility when applying for certain administrative positions, and it will certainly open doors that an associate's degree will not, but it depends on what your individual goals are as to the return on investment. The only reason I have an Associate's Degree in Theater is because I went to a college that offered it and decided to get something to prove what I had accomplished prior to getting a different degree in another field. So, in my case, the associate's helped immensely as that ended up my chosen profession.


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