# Is your balcony safe?



## derekleffew (Nov 23, 2010)

Tragic story at 2-year-old who fell to his death at Lakers game had crawled out of parents' sight | L.A. NOW | Los Angeles Times . How could this have been prevented? Is the venue liable?


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## jwl868 (Nov 23, 2010)

Question 1: I'm not giving an answer, but the harsh reality is that watching a 2-year old is a full time job. (This type of tragedy seems to occur daily, although the mechanism may be swimming pool, a relative’s dog, a car, a flight of steps, etc.) 

Question 2: It will be determined by the skills of the lawyers.


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## Sony (Nov 23, 2010)

In my opinion, no it wasn't the venue's fault at all. The parents are completely to blame...you have a 2 year old child, you pay attention to them and make sure you can see them at all times, I'm sorry but I don't even have kids yet and I know that is responsible parenting.


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## MNicolai (Nov 23, 2010)

As the venue, isn't it our job to protect our patrons though?

Is it all that unreasonable for a balcony edge to be 2-year-old proof?

I'm certainly not exempting the parents from at least a portion of the responsbility, but I mean, c'mon, almost the entire premise of our jobs as entertainment staff is protecting anyone from any hazards they may encounter while at our events. At the very least, it's the venue's responsbility to say "no children x years old and younger in the balcony areas."


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## photoatdv (Nov 23, 2010)

MNicolai said:


> As the venue, isn't it our job to protect our patrons though?
> 
> Is it all that unreasonable for a balcony edge to be 2-year-old proof?
> 
> I'm certainly not exempting the parents from at least a portion of the responsbility, but I mean, c'mon, almost the entire premise of our jobs as entertainment staff is protecting anyone from any hazards they may encounter while at our events. At the very least, it's the venue's responsbility to say "no children x years old and younger in the balcony areas."


 
Does anyone know if the balcony edge inadequate, or if the poor kid climbed onto a chair then table for example? I've seen kids that rival most rigger's climbing abilities (kid winds up on to of the refrigerator for example).


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## museav (Nov 23, 2010)

MNicolai said:


> As the venue, isn't it our job to protect our patrons though?
> 
> Is it all that unreasonable for a balcony edge to be 2-year-old proof?
> 
> I'm certainly not exempting the parents from at least a portion of the responsibility, but I mean, c'mon, almost the entire premise of our jobs as entertainment staff is protecting anyone from any hazards they may encounter while at our events. At the very least, it's the venue's responsbility to say "no children x years old and younger in the balcony areas."


What is "two year old proof"? Seriously, if you're designing a facility what would you have to do to meet that criteria? And if you did that, should you be liable if something still happens? Now extend that to "idiot proof". Is that a realistic goal if even possible? On the other hand, imagine the lawsuits if you denied access based on age or height and could not show a reasonable reason for that specific limit. Lawyers could probably have a field day with that. 

If the venue design or maintenance was negligent, then yes, they should assume some liability. However, if they met all applicable code and life safety criteria and made reasonable accommodations, then I'm not sure why they should be held liable, although I'm guessing that won't stop some attorney from pursuing it.

It's interesting to read the comments to the linked article and to the articles it links. In those comments several people express concern over the design of barrier at the suites while others that have apparently been in the facility say exactly the opposite and seem to think that someone, especially a small child, would have to go out of their way to get over the knee wall and the plexi above that. Looking at the picture with the article it looks like there is a knee rail that apparently forms a shelf and then a vertical Plexiglas panel up to about mid chest height on an adult male. Unless some part of that assembly failed that would seem to be a reasonable barrier.


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## Sony (Nov 23, 2010)

From the picture in the article...there is no way a 2-year old would be able to get over that barrier without some serious climbing which a parent or SOME adult in the vicinity should have seen had they been paying attention to their toddler. Unless there is a break in the barrier somewhere there is no way I can see blaming the venue at all in this case. Look at the picture, the glass barrier is up to that ushers neck almost. Barring mechanical or structural failure this is clearly a case of gross negligence on the part of the parents and I hope child services finds that to be the case.


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## mstaylor (Nov 24, 2010)

In a couple of the articles it said that the railings are all to code. Unfortunately, this a case of the parents not paying attention, there are some accounts that said it was a private box and the parents were taking pictures when he fell. As a father of two I don't understand why people take kids places they have no business being. A two to three year old is not going to remember going to a basketball game so why take him? Watching a child in that big a group is full time work and make watching the game yourself impossible. 
This is a shame and a tragedy, much like the Notre Dame accident, that could have been avoided by the adults being a little more responsible.


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## Morydd (Nov 24, 2010)

As the father of a two-year-old, who had said two-year-old at the United Center last night, 3 rows back from a balcony rail that looks similar to the one pictured, I can say that I can see how such a thing could happen, but it requires parents who are either irresponsible or flat-out neglectful. My kid makes a habit of climbing on things, and then jumping. Scares the crap out of me when he does it from the couch sometimes, there's no way I'd let him near the railing in a box like that. It's far too easy for someone to bump someone even when you are paying attention. And speaking as a parent who has lost a child, I know the heartbreak is unimaginable. What comes next for these parents will only make things worse. I feel for them, but still feel that there's no way they're fault free.


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## tjrobb (Nov 27, 2010)

Barrier heights vary: sightline constrained, minimum 26" tall (IIRC); standard is 36" or 40". Either way, modern codes want ALL 'fall barriers' to be "climbing resistant" for this exact reason. Usually this means either solid panels or vertical bars. This is out of memory so this may not be perfectly accurate. If the arena's barriers in the area of the accident meet the codes at the time it was constructed normally no fault is found with the arena.


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## MNicolai (Nov 27, 2010)

Sounds like other people have had almost-similar experiences. Still, it sounds like they were up to code and the coroner has not found any signs of abuse.

By Jon Weisman:

> Two primary situations cause me to yell at my kids.
> 
> The first is fear of them getting hurt. Saturday, for example, while my wife worked, I took advantage of an invitation to a Staples Center suite and brought my kids there. The Clippers happened to be playing, but that wasn't why I was going. The reasons were to spend time with the friend who invited me, *and to be in a confined space where I could patrol all three of my children*.
> 
> ...


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## mstaylor (Nov 27, 2010)

Again, why the devil would take three kids solo to a game they won't watch or remember. It is taking a risk for no apparent reason.


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## Anonymous067 (Nov 28, 2010)

mstaylor said:


> Again, why the devil would take three kids solo to a game they won't watch or remember. It is taking a risk for no apparent reason.


 
Maybe the tickets are cheaper than the babysitter?


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## DuckJordan (Nov 28, 2010)

Anonymous067 said:


> Maybe the tickets are cheaper than the babysitter?


 

In the end i believe the tickets cost more than the baby sitter would have. All considering they lost a child's life. Personally, i feel its great they wanted to go see a show, but they also have kids to think about, Personally i feel its a case of neglect. I know with any of my family if you went somewhere with your kid your first priority is the child not the game, show, concert, or what have you. It was very rare to ever see a child doing something without their parents watching every move they make.

If i was the deciding judge on this I would make sure the parents know that having a kid is a huge responsibility which may mean giving up some of the things you used to do or get a baby sitter.

Think people, think is all i have to say.


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## MNicolai (Nov 29, 2010)

As a point of fairness, I want to point out that when Jon took his children to that game, he chose that box suite _because_ he thought it would be a manageable environment. It wasn't until after things got rolling did he realize otherwise. Again, not exempting parents from responsibility, but when you haven't brought your young children to a box suite at the Staples Center before, it's pretty easy to show up with a false sense of security.

We can all admonish the parents after-the-fact, but hindsight is 20/20 and until things go wrong, a false sense of security can go a _long_ ways.


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## mstaylor (Nov 29, 2010)

I understand the Monday morning quarterback syndrome but a little forethought is also in order. Why bring a small child to an event that they have no appreciation for nor will remember. This has nothing to do with safety, beforehand, but with parenting and consideration for other people. How many times are their unwatched or unrestricted kids in theatres, restaurants and other places that takes away the ability to enjoy the function for the parents if they are watching the kid/s and others if they aren't. Then add the possible safety issues and that is a whole other layer. Just seems to be a change in the parenting paradigm.


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## photoatdv (Nov 29, 2010)

mstaylor said:


> I understand the Monday morning quarterback syndrome but a little forethought is also in order. Why bring a small child to an event that they have no appreciation for nor will remember. This has nothing to do with safety, beforehand, but with parenting and consideration for other people. How many times are their unwatched or unrestricted kids in theatres, restaurants and other places that takes away the ability to enjoy the function for the parents if they are watching the kid/s and others if they aren't. Then add the possible safety issues and that is a whole other layer. Just seems to be a change in the parenting paradigm.



Oh, bringing kids to watch a show doesn't hold a candle to the stupidity of when people bring kids to load-in/out of a show they're WORKING. Not fun when you're trying to strike lights overhead or hang a few hundred pounds of scenery and a little kid keeps running up getting in the way!!! And that kid certainly isn't going to listen when someone yells heads.


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## zmb (Nov 29, 2010)

FYI this unfournately happened again accidentally involving a 23-year old man in Chicago.
Bears fan's death ruled accident, not suicide - NFL- NBC Sports


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## gafftaper (Nov 30, 2010)

Here in Seattle we opened a new baseball stadium about 10 years ago. It was interesting to see the massive railing modification that went into effect between the first and second seasons. They added a hand rail "bumper" in some locations so that if a customer trips coming down the aisle they won't fall off the balcony. Second they added about 6" of height to all railings with little steel posts being welded on top of the primary railings and miles of cables strung between. You can see the extra barrier and the hand rail bumper in this picture (and no I don't know these people).



I always wondered what the story was. Was it not built to code originally? Did code change and they updated it? Did someone decide that code wasn't good enough? When you think about this on a stadium wide scale, they must have spent several million doing this upgrade.


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## Les (Dec 4, 2010)

From sports.yahoo.com

*Fan falls from second deck in Texas, Rangers-Indians game halted*

By 'Duk

In one of the year's scariest moments, a male fan fell out of the second deck while reaching for a foul ball during Tuesday's game between the Cleveland Indians and Texas Rangers in Arlington.

The fan fell onto a crowd of people below and the field was cleared of players as medical personnel sprang to action. 

From the Associated Press:

_Texas' Nelson Cruz fouled a ball into the first row of seats in the club level along the first-base line, and the fan attempted to snag the ball before losing his balance and tumbling about 30 feet onto the seats below.

Paramedics were on the scene quickly to attend to the fan, who was strapped to a stretcher and taken by ambulance to a hospital.

The game was stopped for 16 minutes and several players on the field looked shaken._

Anthony Castrovince, the MLB.com reporter for the Indians, reports that the fan was taken to a hospital in Ft. Worth and "is responsive and can move all extremities." Meanwhile, the people the fan landed on were treated at the park for injuries not considered serious.

That's seemingly good news to hear after watching the situation at The Ballpark, but it's not as if we can breathe a deep sigh of relief just yet. Remember it was only earlier this year that a fan fell out of the stands at Miller Park and died three weeks later from his injuries, despite being conscious and moving as he was transported off the field.

We'll post any updates if there are any to be had and hopefully they'll be positive reports. In the meantime, be careful out there, folks. Not all guard railings at our ballparks are high enough to prevent every possible fall. 

Here's the railing:


I tried to find an actual video of the event on youtube, only to find a bunch of videos of the reactions afterward. I went to a Rangers game in Arlington a few weeks prior and I do remember the railing being pretty low, though it's more of an optical illusion. From the top of each balcony, the rail looks very low, but is closer to waist height once you get up to it. The balconies are steep, and I recall being very cautious as to not losing my footing on my way to my seats. Obviously though, it is still possible for a fully-grown man to fall over one of these rails when leaping for a foul ball. I would say this is one of those "here's your sign" situations.

Edit: In the photo above, the higher (waist-to-chest level) portion of the railing is just below the stairs leading down to the seating (in the far right of the photo). The lower portion of the railing (just in front of the seating areas) is definitely much lower and evidently not hard to fall over.


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## mstaylor (Dec 4, 2010)

Building a sports facility is a Catch-22 situation. They could use a straight floor to waist railing but then things get dropped through to fans below. In most they build a retaining wall with a short railing or glass to finish the height. The problem is now you have a climbing wall for small unattended children. If you slide the railing closer to the inside you weaken the fastening points. You can do a side mount on the outside and roll the handrail over to match the inside plane, this doubles or triples the cost.


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## cprted (Dec 4, 2010)

gafftaper said:


> Was it not built to code originally? Did code change and they updated it? Did someone decide that code wasn't good enough?


The last statement is probably where the truth lies. Remember, the building code, fire code, etc is the minimum standard for safety. Simply building something "to code" may not satisfy your insurance provider nor may you escape from liability in the case of an injury.


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## stagehand1983 (Jan 23, 2011)

Shoot, I think they should not let little kids or drunks (not saying anyone was drunk) on balconies. Sure it can be fun to be in the 'nosebleed' section but you have to think about safety first.


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## gafftapegreenia (Jan 23, 2011)

It's not fun to be in the nosebleeds, rather, its usually what I can afford.


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## stagehand1983 (Jan 23, 2011)

gafftapegreenia said:


> It's not fun to be in the nosebleeds, rather, its usually what I can afford.


Oh yeah, forgot about that. Well then that's a better reason for making them safe. How? I don't know.


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## derekleffew (Apr 18, 2011)

Worth necroposting?

Man Falls From 2nd Deck at Elton John Concert - OzarksFirst.com


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## mstaylor (Apr 22, 2011)

Absolutely.


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