# Opinions on Chinese Knockoffs



## EBB (Oct 25, 2011)

So I have seen quite a bit of chinese knock off fixtures from random places like DJ's and churches. And it's been mostly just LED fixtures or lamps. But recently I worked a festival that had a decent amount of nice gear like Mac 2k's and Thomas blinders, etc. But then they pulled out these knockoff versatubes and LED pars. And after a while I noticed it was more and more knockoffs like Mac 250 knockoffs and supposedly had alooot of chinese shackles. 

So to get to the point, what is your opinion on knockoffs vs the leading companies? At what point does it become a problem/liability/insult on the industry? If you're a professional production company putting up large tent stages for thousands of people, do you think it's time to start upgrading to the name brand gear or do you think it's acceptable to use that equipment full time?

And as for the things like the shackles and spansets, what are your views? I'm not a rigger, so I don't understand the math and whatnot to how all of that works. But is there a difference in those versus the ones that are normally used?


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## chausman (Oct 25, 2011)

The biggest concern (that I've seen) is reliability. The knockoffs may work, but for how long?


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## gafftaper (Oct 25, 2011)

First off there are two different issues. There are knockoffs which attempt to sell you something that looks and acts just like the real product but it has significantly lower quality. These are sometimes even marketed as the same product but at unbelievable discount prices. Sometimes these products are reverse engineered to create the original look without the same quality. These are shady, should be illegal, but are difficult to track and stop. The most notorious knockoffs in our industry are actually not from China but from good old Behringer. Behringer has, on multiple occasions, been sued over steeling other manufacturers products. Do some research on the Boss guitar pedal law suite more info. If I remember right there was a mixer (possibly Mackie) that they even copied the spelling errors in the manual. Is that ethical? Personally I will not buy Behringer products because of this proven business practice. 

On the other hand there are OEM products. These are products made in the same factory, by the same employees, with supposedly the same parts, as the major manufacturer. Neo-neon is the most famous of these companies around here. There are still some ethical questions with these products. A major manufacturer designs a product and pays for the production line to create that product, is it ethical for that OEM manufacturer to continue to produce more of the same product and sell them for less than the manufacturer? Is it ethical for you to buy such a product knowing the major manufacturer is investing all the money and the OEM is just making the money off them? 

If you have no problem with the ethics of buying a knockoff or OEM product there is still another issue. Who supports it if/when it breaks? This is the real issue to me. Although you paid half price, for your Chinese mover, you still paid several thousand bucks for it. So what do you do when it breaks. Where do you go for service? Where will you get parts for it in 5 years? Sometimes you can buy them through a reputable American dealer who will stand behind the product. Sometimes you are buying from a guy in an apartment on Ebay who you will never hear from again. 

Finally note there is a third type of product out there from China. This gear is made to design specifications created by someone here or there. This gear can be pretty good depending on the build quality, asked for by the designer. There probably hasn't been anyone ripped off in the process of creating it either. The question with these sorts of products is again will someone back them up in 5 years if you need parts.


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## len (Oct 25, 2011)

They're treated as disposable fixtures. I have a lot of those LED Pars, and when they go, they go. Because they're so cheap, it's not a big deal. The problems come when 

a) you can't replace one or two because that product is no longer available, and that is especially true with any LED based product. Technology is moving so fast that nothing sticks around very long and 

b) show failures. So far, not a problem for me because I'm using pretty simple stuff. But moving lights have far more moving parts, more logic boards, etc. I'm sure there are companies that are using the knock offs, and they have no issues with them. The problem comes when someone specs Vari or Martin and they send knockoffs and don't tell the customer. But those are the same companies that have, and continue to, send out bad orders (i.e., the wrong types of fixtures specified, incomplete orders, non-working fixtures, etc.) to shows and their reputation suffers because of it. And these people will send HES or Martin, etc., just very poorly maintained. Personally, I'd rather have 100% working knock-offs than 40% working Martins, 20% non-working, and 40% never showed up in the first place.


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## Chris15 (Oct 25, 2011)

I have a friend who audits fire extinguisher manufacturing facilities in China (and Australia, and...)
He is of the opinion that the Chinese tend to be reasonably honest in that they will say this is the price. Customer wants price cheaper. Businessman turns around and says that's fine, where would you like me to cut the corners? Cheaper grade metal for instance.

So when you start talking about safety critical compenents (ie. anything rigging amongst others) I see there being 2 things that matter;
No 1 is the manufacturer's quality control - what is the reasonable likelihood of this week's batch meeting the same specifications as last week's and what's in place to stop something that's not up to scratch getting out?
No 2 is I'd want independent lab certifications for things like breaking strength and thus derived SWL. Things like UL, NATA, etc.

Ultimately with rigging etc. it will boil down to liability. Were you reasonable in your selection of equipment is soemthing a court is likely to consider. If you knowingly skimped on safety for a few quid, then your chances of being found negligent increase rapidly...


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## gafftaper (Oct 25, 2011)

Oh forgot to comment on the rigging part. If your shackle is rated at 500lbs and it fails at 200lbs and someone dies. Who is responsible? If the shackle is made by an American manufacturer it will have stamped into the metal the name of the company. Who gets sued? They do. If the shackle only says China. Who gets sued? YOU do. 

For your legal safety, you should only buy rigging hardware with the name of the manufacturer and the load rating stamped on it.


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## JD (Oct 25, 2011)

Problem is, the Chinese are getting better and better. Outside of the infringement issue (which is pretty huge), they have plowed through a lot of other industries. Used to be China-co = junk. That is changing in this field like every other. Not sure this is a good thing.....


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## DrPinto (Oct 25, 2011)

Chris15 said:


> I have a friend who audits fire extinguisher manufacturing facilities in China (and Australia, and...)


 
A Chinese fire extinguisher? Yikes! From my experience with Chinese quality, I wouldn't even consider it.

I've just had far too many bad experiences with poor quality Chinese products.


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## Nelson (Oct 25, 2011)

Too bad to hear about Behringer. I (used to) buy from them once in a while.

To answer the question, I avoid Chinese knockoffs. If I can't afford to pay full price for the brand name, I buy used brand-name equipment.


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## gafftaper (Oct 25, 2011)

Nelson said:


> Too bad to hear about Behringer. I (used to) buy from them once in a while.


 
It goes back a long time and it seems to be a pretty consistent business strategy for Behringer. Mackie sued them back in like 2002 or 2003. Roland/Boss Pedals sued them in 2005 I think. 

After Mackie released the Onyx line, Behringer released the Xynix line. 

> This year, Behringer have introduced a huge new range of mixers called XENYX, which feature _"The new XENYX Mic Preamp"_, digital i/o (USB) and _"neo-classic British EQ"_. I'm sure there's no connection with Mackie's range of mixers called ONYX, which feature _"our new flagship Onyx mic preamps"_, digital i/o (Firewire) and _"a 'neo classic' 3- and 4-band design based on classic "British EQ" circuitry"_.


 Full article here.


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## Chris15 (Oct 25, 2011)

DrPinto said:


> A Chinese fire extinguisher?


 
Where exactly do you think most of the world's supply is being manufactured?


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## chausman (Oct 25, 2011)

Chris15 said:


> Where exactly do you think most of the world's supply is being manufactured?


 
Vari*lite is USA Made. 


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## Chris15 (Oct 25, 2011)

Vari*lite have started manufacturing fire extinguishers now?
An interesting development...


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## chausman (Oct 25, 2011)

Chris15 said:


> Vari*lite have started manufacturing fire extinguishers now?
> An interesting development...


 
Oh...didn't read that carefully enough. I thought you meant fixtures. 


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## sk8rsdad (Oct 25, 2011)

chausman said:


> Vari*lite is USA Made.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


 
But many of the components are likely coming from abroad. There's really very little that can claim it is entirely made domestically. Somewhere in the process is bound to be some foreign content. Take, for example, your iPad...


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## David Ashton (Oct 25, 2011)

The title of this thread is so biased, the Chinese make the whole range of gear from the cheap and nasty through to the world leading high tech, in my youth, "made in Japan" was a dire insult, the stuff was rubbish, how things change, China produces more graduates and more patents than the US, they are not stupid, and like Japan they will copy, then improve, then innovate, so yes I use Chinese gear and you get what you pay for, but I still pay much less for good quality gear from China, and the service tends to be amazing, recently I asked for some quotes at 9pm and had them by 11pm, both in the same timezone, whereas many US companies don't deal with overseas customers.


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## chausman (Oct 25, 2011)

David Ashton said:


> The title of this thread is so biased,


 
How is it biased? It doesn't say all Chinese products are knockoffs, the OP was asking about them specifically.


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## cpf (Oct 26, 2011)

I think the age of "made in china" stigma has come and gone. You can find cheap US-made stuff, and you can find cheap Chinese-made stuff. My Nikon DSLR is made in China (I think) and the Honda I drive was made in Ontario (well, final assembly), and neither of them are "cheap."


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## bishopthomas (Oct 26, 2011)

I have several flavors of Chinese LED's and one console (still planning on doing a write up on that). They have been every bit as good quality as a "US" company, better in some cases. I have had nothing but problems with my Elation Platinum Spot 5R's. I'm ready to unload them and go all Chinese movers. That way if/when one breaks I will shelf it and use it for parts, or just throw it away. At less than $300 for a MAC250 clone who cares?

I have absolutely no ethical dilemma with buying Chinese products, even the blatant rip offs. I would love to support Avolites, but at no point have I ever considered spending $12,000 on a console. I would probably buy a Chamsys wing for MagicQ and be perfectly happy with that. Avo is not losing my business, the guy selling a used MaxiWing or Hog 1000 is.


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## Les (Oct 26, 2011)

sk8rsdad said:


> But many of the components are likely coming from abroad. There's really very little that can claim it is entirely made domestically. Somewhere in the process is bound to be some foreign content. Take, for example, your iPad...



Good point. I'll bet these Martins and Vari*Lites have stepper motors made in either China or Japan. I have some good quality EDI stations. Designed and built in the USA. Guess where the potentiometers came from? I find that many products we use today utilize "global" parts, whether they were assembled here or not.


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## zmb (Oct 26, 2011)

cpf said:


> I think the age of "made in china" stigma has come and gone. You can find cheap US-made stuff, and you can find cheap Chinese-made stuff. My Nikon DSLR is made in China (I think) and the Honda I drive was made in Ontario (well, final assembly), and neither of them are "cheap."


 At least cars have to tell you where the engine, transmission, and countries where over x% parts come from.


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## shiben (Oct 26, 2011)

zmb said:


> At least cars have to tell you where the engine, transmission, and countries where over x% parts come from.


 
And yet your average American could not tell you where their car did final assembly, much less where it got made. 

I guess my opinion on it is thus: China is at a stage where they copy a lot and innovate less. However, they will move, as the Chinese people become more educated and skilled, move into the innovation section of things. At this point, we will no longer be having this discussion because A, none of us will be able to afford a home computer and B, the new "Vari*Lite" product will be by some shop in China. It will happen sooner than later, as more and more Chinese workers get educated in America and take home ethics from here. At some point, it will just tip. At this point, I think there are Chinese LEDs and CHINESE LEDs. One being a knockoff of something else, and the other being a pretty darn good product for 100 bucks. And thats what I like to see. A good product, not the best, not perfect, but a decent quality product, and for 100 bucks, which is a slight less than something by Elation Pro which is expensive and a slight more than American DJ who seems not to be able to figure out that RGB LED products need to be able to blend colors... Also, I used some Blizzard Pucks the other day on a show, and holy crap were they nice. Very bright, they had been on a tour for a couple of months and worked great, and really quite nice colors. Are those Chinese? Probably. Are they bloody brilliant? Yes they are.


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## Nelson (Oct 26, 2011)

gafftaper said:


> After Mackie released the Onyx line, Behringer released the Xynix line.
> Full article here.


 
I just bought a XENYX mixer too! Although I did buy it used.


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## Amishplumber (Oct 26, 2011)

As far as lighting products go, I consider the trade off to be 80% of the product for 50% of the price. I then decide on a case by case basis if thats worth the trade off.

As far as rigging goes, I was once taught to de-rate all chinese made products 10% and use them as such. Many people argue back and forth about using chinese rigging products and I think the 10% rule is a reasonable middle ground.


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## Chris15 (Oct 26, 2011)

Amishplumber said:


> As far as rigging goes, I was once taught to de-rate all chinese made products 10% and use them as such. Many people argue back and forth about using chinese rigging products and I think the 10% rule is a reasonable middle ground.


 
Derate by 10% or to 10%?
There is rather a difference...


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## Pie4Weebl (Oct 26, 2011)

Amishplumber said:


> As far as lighting products go, I consider the trade off to be 80% of the product for 50% of the price. I then decide on a case by case basis if thats worth the trade off.
> 
> As far as rigging goes, I was once taught to de-rate all chinese made products 10% and use them as such. Many people argue back and forth about using chinese rigging products and I think the 10% rule is a reasonable middle ground.



Yeah then your truss will only kill 90% as many people when it comes crashing down right?

If you are using unrated hardware you have no business in rigging, there are no compromises on rigging when your only argument is that you can save a few bucks on shackles.


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## metti (Oct 26, 2011)

Amishplumber said:


> As far as rigging goes, I was once taught to de-rate all chinese made products 10% and use them as such. Many people argue back and forth about using chinese rigging products and I think the 10% rule is a reasonable middle ground.


 
This rule doesn't actually address the issue at hand. One should, under all circumstances, only use rigging products that have been stamped by the manufacturer. If you don't do this and one fails, that liability is completely on your head and you have no manufacturer to pass it off to. While this will probably change down the road, at the moment Chinese manufacturers of rigging supplies do not stamp the product so it is way too high of a risk for any rigger to use them if they value their ability to not get their asses sued off in the event of an accident. I honestly think that 99.9999999% of chinese made rigging products are probably about as high quality as their domestic brethren but that doesn't change the fact that this isn't actually an issue about whether or not they will fail but rather one of what will happen to me if one does.


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## Amishplumber (Oct 27, 2011)

To clarify, I'm only talking about rated rigging products that have a Chinese origin. Obviously unrated products have no place in rigging. The situation the 10% rule is applicable to is if you have (for instance) two shackles in your hand; both have the same stamped weight rating but one was made in the USA and the other was made in China. I would derate the Chinese one by 10% (to 90% of its rating).

Also to relieve all the members of the interwebs, I do no rigging myself as of yet. I am still learning and do not yet consider myself well versed enough to rig things myself. This 10% rule has never been applied in any real world situation by me as of yet. I welcome any and all reactions to it. I do, however, know an experienced rigger who uses this rule day in and day out.


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## Esoteric (Oct 27, 2011)

gafftaper said:


> Finally note there is a third type of product out there from China. This gear is made to design specifications created by someone here or there. This gear can be pretty good depending on the build quality, asked for by the designer. There probably hasn't been anyone ripped off in the process of creating it either. The question with these sorts of products is again will someone back them up in 5 years if you need parts.


 
This is the only type we sell. I sell units by several different companies that are "Chinese" but use either licensed OEM parts or custom designed units.

They are on the level of Elation I would say. They are not ETC, Selecon, or Vari-Lite by any means, but for the price they are excellent quality. Probably the best value around.


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## Esoteric (Oct 27, 2011)

gafftaper said:


> Oh forgot to comment on the rigging part. If your shackle is rated at 500lbs and it fails at 200lbs and someone dies. Who is responsible? If the shackle is made by an American manufacturer it will have stamped into the metal the name of the company. Who gets sued? They do. If the shackle only says China. Who gets sued? YOU do.
> 
> For your legal safety, you should only buy rigging hardware with the name of the manufacturer and the load rating stamped on it.


 
Actually, you will often get sued either way. Now, what the court finds could very well be different. But in these cases it is often a "round them all up and sort them out later" mentality.

Also, keep in mind that just because something is stamped doesn't mean you are automatically not liable.


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## EBB (Oct 27, 2011)

I'm really liking the posts back on all of this. Your views are actually putting my mind into more perspective on both the rigging and the lighting portions

So to add a little to it, what are your thoughts on a company- say Martin, who produces the 101's at say 3k a piece(I don't know the actual price. I'm just listing a number) and a chinese(or american) knockoff that made the fixture in the same factory as the original has sold them to a second company who sells them at say $1000 a piece. You know that there is no need for something like an LED fixture that can pan and tilt to be thousands of dollars, but you still feel like you should support the company. Where do you think your views lie there where a big name company is charging big bucks for small products? Do your views on ethics still hold strong if you are a long running buyer and user of the said company's gear?


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## Esoteric (Oct 27, 2011)

I just have an ethical dilemma with buying products that are not properly licensed.

Because my work is mostly IP, I have a hard time infringing on the IP of others.

I haven't pirated music since I got into the entertainment industry, even though the pre mp3 music industry was a huge ripoff.


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## lightingguy1 (Oct 27, 2011)

bishopthomas said:


> I have had nothing but problems with my Elation Platinum Spot 5R's. I'm ready to unload them.


 

My Ion hates the Platinum Spot LEDs that I use to own.


They totally suck - Tech support wasn't all that helpful when trying to collaborate with ETC's support.


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## derekleffew (Oct 27, 2011)

EBB said:


> ...Where do you think your views lie there where a big name company is charging big bucks for small products? Do your views on ethics still hold strong if you are a long running buyer and user of the said company's gear?


This "dilemma" may be best answered in a quote from one of the comments to the article on Behringer cited above:

> Does Behringer ever worry that someday they'll capture the market and have no one left to copy their ideas from?


Yes, the components in a Martin MAC 101 cost significantly less than $1724, but doesn't Martin have the right to recoup its R&D cost, AND charge enough to make a fair profit?
Let's say everyone buys instead the Mario 101 for $500. Martin goes broke not selling any units and hiring lawyers for patent infringement lawsuits. Then where does innovation come from?

There are many fixtures similar to the Source Four, but arguably, none come close to the original. See also the thread http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/lighting-electrics/8221-patent-infringment-lawsuit.html , but note that even though the lawsuit was "settled," Lightronics continues to advertise the fixture. In this case the "copy" was of significant less quality at not substantially less price, but ETC was correct in defending its patents (and passing the cost on to the consumer).

A quite lengthy LightNetwork thread from a while ago: http://www.lightnetwork.com/messages.php?msg=29825.1&high_light=knockoff&smode=1 .


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## LXPlot (Oct 27, 2011)

Nelson said:


> I just bought a XENYX mixer too! Although I did buy it used.


 
I have a Xenyx as well. I got it on sale down from where Behringer normally sells, and it ended up being a fantastic deal. I've actually used an Onyx, and with the exception of 
having Firewire, I like the Xenyx better. Although maybe that's just me.


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## dramatech (Oct 27, 2011)

derekleffew said:


> See also the thread http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/lighting-electrics/8221-patent-infringment-lawsuit.html , but note that even though the lawsuit was "settled," Lightronics continues to advertise the fixture. In this case the "copy" was of significant less quality at not substantially less price, but ETC was correct in defending its patents (and passing the cost on to the consumer).



According to the chief designer at Lightronics, the lawsuit was settled by making their copy so that it could not take an HPL lamp and to make the barrel so that it could not turn. The Source 4 copy that Lightronics sells, was not designed or built by them. They were approached by a Chinese company and asked if they wanted to be the exclusive rep in the US. They were already getting their cheapest line of "Shoebox dimmers" from this Chinese vendor. At the time that I was told this bit of information, the same guy said to me, that he was surprised that amybody purchased their Ellipsoidal, as it was far less quality and not that much less expensive.
Do I think that it is right to sell these instruments? Short answer probably not, but it isn't going to stop me from doing business with Lightronics on their American made products, that are of good build quality, and manufactured in Virginia Beach, VA, with good quality components.
I often purchase Lightronics equipment off of ebay that is non-operative. They have been absolutely fantastic at getting me parts and service. Would I purchase their bottom line products that are made in China? I don't think that I would, but tomorrow at LDI, I plan on checking out their new LED line of instruments.

Tom Johnson


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## Wood4321 (Oct 27, 2011)

I completely agree with Derek on this one.
If I ever run across a knock off fixture, I refuse to use it.
Using knock off fixtures destroys the profitability of designing new features into any fixtures.
If you spend a million dollars designing a fixture, and a factory in China builds an exact copy of it, what is the point in innovating in the first place?
I feel very strongly about this issue, and would question the ethics of anyone who feels it is acceptable to use a copy of any fixture.
(To be honest, I feel a bit less strongly about conventional fixtures, as long as they don't infringe on patents)
As a designer, I would equate it to someone taking your design, (and show disk) and using it on several shows without paying you.


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## David Ashton (Oct 27, 2011)

Behringer do make totally original products like their Euro Lighting desk.
They really should stick with the copying


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## chausman (Oct 27, 2011)

David Ashton said:


> Behringer do make totally original products like their Euro Lighting desk.
> They really should stick with the copying


 
Do you know if they copied anything for the old Eurodesk boards? Those actually worked fairly well. (MX______ line.)


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## gafftaper (Oct 27, 2011)

A couple more thoughts on Chinese Rigging Hardware:

-Who rated that Chinese Shackle? How do you know it was actually tested? Who tested it? How was it tested? How do you know someone didn't pick it up and say, "This looks thick enough to hold 1000lbs". If the manufacturer won't put their name on it, all you know for sure is someone stamped a number on the side. 

-Chinese manufactures are notorious for dumping random crap in their products as filler once the inspectors leave. T There were 1.5 million Thomas the Tank Engine toys with lead paint, jewelry for little girls made with cadmium, and of course there was the Milk with Melamine in it. I could go on. The package may say the rigging hardware is made of steel, but given the track record of manufacturers how do you know what's in there?

-Let's say you buy a 100lb "rated" Chinese shackle. You decide, I'll devalue it 10% and only consider it safe for 90lbs. It fails when you put a 40lb load on it. You get sued. You go to court. What's your defense? When the lawyers find out that you knew it wasn't safe to use at the full load so you decided knocking off 10% was a good idea. They are going to DESTROY you and your career. Using any rigging product not stamped by the manufacturer is not worth the risk to your career. 

-Note that using a shackle stamped "USA" but with no manufacturer identification is just as bad as using one stamped "China". This isn't all about the country and it isn't about the load rating stamped in it. It's about having proof of who made it and stands behind that rating. 

-Being a good rigger is all about understanding the risks and designing a safe way to manage the risks. You can't do that if you don't *know* the exact load rating of your gear.


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## Esoteric (Oct 27, 2011)

Woodj32177 said:


> I completely agree with Derek on this one.
> If I ever run across a knock off fixture, I refuse to use it.
> Using knock off fixtures destroys the profitability of designing new features into any fixtures.
> If you spend a million dollars designing a fixture, and a factory in China builds an exact copy of it, what is the point in innovating in the first place?
> ...


 
But this is the heart of a capitalist system. If you innovate something, then someone is going to come behind you and copy it. That is the way of things. There is nothing immoral or illegal about this. In fact this is good for a market economy, because it actually pushes innovation (to get back on top you have to constantly keep innovating) and it drives competition which is the root of a free market economy. Without people following in the steps of innovators, we would still be paying $1000 for a DVD player.

When you make an innovation you get a small window to profit from it exclusively. After that, it is up to you as a company. You want to compete? Either offer more for the money (not saying that some of the bigger companies don't) or lower your prices.

I have no problems with using products that use properly licensed OEM parts, or that OEM their own parts (from the same factories that the big boys use) based on designs and technology (without direct patent infringement) that were innovated by other companies.

It is the capitalist way.


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## Wood4321 (Oct 27, 2011)

I disagree completely.
The heart of the capitalist system is innovation, But that innovation is protected!
I don't have an issue with copying the features of a fixture(without violating patents), But once you copy every detail of the fixture, down to the way the point that the knockoffs often will work with the original's profile in a desk, Then you are STEALING!

Look at the current Apple/Samsung lawsuits. One of the main items Apple is asserting against Samsung is "Trade Dress Infringement" This means that Apple is suing samsung for copying the look and feel of its devices. 
There are even several areas in the world that have banned the sale of the offending devices.
"Trade Dress Infringement" is big deal in todays society.

What would you do, if I went into a church christmas pageant you designed, stole your lightplot and show disk, and started selling it to other churches for half the price you charged?

Would that be acceptable?
How about the knock off Avo lighting desks that ask you to download software from AVO?
At what point do you believe it isn't ok? Or is outright theft of intellectual property always ok?

I have no problem with chinese manufacturers building their own fixtures. BUT, they need to actually build their own fixtures without copying someone else.

Look at the Mac 101 and the GLP volkslicht, Both similar fixtures, but nobody, (Myself included) is accusing either of them of copying...


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## Esoteric (Oct 27, 2011)

I am not supporting copyright or patent infringement. But you cannot keep a company from making a product simply because it is similar to the one you make. Look at AMD and Intel. The processors are VERY similar (even on an architectural level), but no one is accusing AMD of theft of IP. Any number of car manufacturers. This stuff happens all the time in the clothing industry. Someone innovates a "look" and 3 months later every discount retailer has that same "look" on their store shelves.

No one is advocating theft of IP. We should all refuse to buy products that are outright thefts.

But you can't design the MAC 101 and then claim that anything resembling the unit or that has the same DMX channel layout is a "knock off" and should not be on the market. If I can design my own unit, without infringing on your IP, and I can sell mine for $1000 less, but it happens to resemble yours or contain some of the same parts you use (legally licensed and obtained), then I deserve to be able to go to market with it.

That would stifle competition and competition is the basis of the free market (I assert this because competition drives innovation not the other way around, if there were no competition there is no need for innovation, on the other hand making an innovation does not necessarily bring about competition, in addition competition is the force behind pricing which is how we judge markets, therefor competition is the basis of the free market).


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## Wood4321 (Oct 27, 2011)

In my opinion, 
Processors are Not a good example in my opinion, while they may look similar, 
They are very different, If they could be used in each others motherboards, you may have a case.
But with processors, you need to have a specific chipset, and socket to make the processor work.
I would equate this with my DMX Profile comment, Since these items don't work with each others parts, I would equate them to be ok.
Since one is not copying the other.

Here are a few items for you to peruse, 
Are they acceptable to you?
Mac 2k

Avo Pearl

Once again, I am not talking about similar fixtures, I am talking about complete copies.
These are the fixtures and desks I take issue with.

That being said, I would be very unlikely to use any fixture without the appropriate approvals.
UL, CE, Etc, etc...
Many of the less reputable Chinese manufacturers will state that their equipment is listed, when it really is not.
I would ask for documentation before purchasing, as I wouldn't want to be responsible one of those fixtures bursting into flame over a crowded house.
Now, if a fixture is manufactured in china for a reputable manufacturer, I have no problem with their products. Elation has some very nice Chinese made fixtures, and you can even get parts...


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## Esoteric (Oct 27, 2011)

Woodj32177 said:


> In my opinion,
> Processors are Not a good example in my opinion, while they may look similar,
> They are very different, If they could be used in each others motherboards, you may have a case.
> But with processors, you need to have a specific chipset, and socket to make the processor work.
> ...


 
I can't tell enough from just that page.

But I would not buy that instrument.

I think we are on the same page.

Keep in mind that UL listing also does not keep you from being sued.

Mike


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## mstaylor (Oct 27, 2011)

I agree with not using knockoffs and unrated rigging equipment. I have a China produced cable restraint, think Crosby. The reason I have it is because it failed at fifty feet in the air and what it was holding **** near hit me when it fell. Turns out there was a combination of Ameican made and China made hardware. Many of the non American hardware was close to failure and my suggestion to the venue was get rid of all of it. It was installed by the stage manufacture and they were made to come back and fix it. 
My question as a rigger is what do you do if a show comes in with all nonrated shackles for their show, what to do? I keep some inhouse but not enough to hang a whole rig. The nearest company with that many shackles is an hour away.


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## DuckJordan (Oct 27, 2011)

mstaylor said:


> I agree with not using knockoffs and unrated rigging equipment. I have a China produced cable restraint, think Crosby. The reason I have it is because it failed at fifty feet in the air and what it was holding **** near hit me when it fell. Turns out there was a combination of American made and China made hardware. Many of the non American hardware was close to failure and my suggestion to the venue was get rid of all of it. It was installed by the stage manufacture and they were made to come back and fix it.
> My question as a rigger is what do you do if a show comes in with all non rated shackles for their show, what to do? I keep some in house but not enough to hang a whole rig. The nearest company with that many shackles is an hour away.


 

It all depends on the contract and who gets to be considered liable. If its us the show doesn't go up until the appropriate hardware is met. Its written in the contract for the shows that consider bringing inadequate equipment is a breach of the contract nullifying any payment or production therein.


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## Wood4321 (Oct 28, 2011)

I agree, It doesn't keep you from being sued.
But it may limit the damages, or actual liability.
(Plus a listed item is much less likely to cause problems)


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## gafftaper (Oct 28, 2011)

Esoteric said:


> I am not supporting copyright or patent infringement. But you cannot keep a company from making a product simply because it is similar to the one you make. Look at AMD and Intel. The processors are VERY similar (even on an architectural level), but no one is accusing AMD of theft of IP.


 
While there haven't been any purely IP lawsuits between AMD and Intel they have been regularly suing each other since 1987. So maybe they aren't exactly the best example to use.


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## Esoteric (Oct 28, 2011)

gafftaper said:


> While there haven't been any purely IP lawsuits between AMD and Intel they have been regularly suing each other since 1987. So maybe they aren't exactly the best example to use.


 
Actually, it is perfect. I have never met an IT professional who says "don't buy AMD because they have been sued by Intel, so they are cheap knock offs."


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## shiben (Oct 28, 2011)

gafftaper said:


> While there haven't been any purely IP lawsuits between AMD and Intel they have been regularly suing each other since 1987. So maybe they aren't exactly the best example to use.


 
When Martin starts suing whoever makes the Fine2000 in Anti-Trust action this would be relevant. AMD has been suing to try and make intel less dominant not via technology but via less anti-competitive practices. IP issues were an issue once? maybe twice, would have to check again.


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## shiben (Oct 28, 2011)

Esoteric said:


> Actually, it is perfect. I have never met an IT professional who says "don't buy AMD because they have been sued by Intel, so they are cheap knock offs."


 
A more comparative situation would be the Fine2000 guys suing martin for illegal business practices.


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## Esoteric (Oct 28, 2011)

shiben said:


> A more comparative situation would be the Fine2000 guys suing martin for illegal business practices.


 
Totally. Good point.


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## BillESC (Oct 28, 2011)

As many of you know I bring in a limited Chinese line of LED fixtures. They were developed by the Chinese manufacturer and I had them modify them to my specifications. Warranty isssues have been a smaller percentage than if I were purchasing "name brand" products at three times the price.

Is there junk out there? Yes. Where does it come from? Anywhere. Can top shelf gear come from China? Most certainly.


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## Esoteric (Oct 28, 2011)

BillESC said:


> As many of you know I bring in a limited Chinese line of LED fixtures. They were developed by the Chinese manufacturer and I had them modify them to my specifications. Warranty isssues have been a smaller percentage than if I were purchasing "name brand" products at three times the price.
> 
> Is there junk out there? Yes. Where does it come from? Anywhere. Can top shelf gear come from China? Most certainly.


 
You know what the worst problem has been with my Chinese gear? Customs. I have had 3 shipments in the last year get caught in Customs (one in China, one in the US, and one by Homeland Security) with 2-3 week waits to get them out.


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## shiben (Oct 28, 2011)

Esoteric said:


> You know what the worst problem has been with my Chinese gear? Customs. I have had 3 shipments in the last year get caught in Customs (one in China, one in the US, and one by Homeland Security) with 2-3 week waits to get them out.


 
Gotta love homeland security. Although I feel like I love the TSA more than ICE.


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## EBB (Oct 28, 2011)

I just thought I would let everyone know that at LDI today I found one of the China fixtures and looking at the back end of it- which looked alot like a Tri-Par...But it had two male ends and no female. Hmmmm.... I should have taken a picture of it. 

Also, side note to the day, the Chamsys MQ 60 prototype. You all should check it out if you're there. it's on the church worship stage.


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## bishopthomas (Oct 30, 2011)

EBB said:


> Also, side note to the day, the Chamsys MQ 60 prototype. You all should check it out if you're there. it's on the church worship stage.


 
That looks cool but I think I'll wait for the Chinese knockoff.


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