# New Installation



## chap73 (Dec 19, 2009)

Hi

I'm working on the renovation of a community/school hall over here NZ. Every supplier wants ot give conflicting information about what I should do so I'm looking for a bit of guidance.

Our stage is 11m wide and 6m deep. I've finally decided that I will put 3 11m long lighting bars in. I'm using galvanised tube not prewired because of the tiny budget. The school only has a roll of 100 students. I plan to site the bars as follows - 1 at 1.5m from back of stage. 1 front of house (about 3m from stage front). 1 behind the procenium - about 2m from front stage.

We're installing an infrastrcture as 3-phase power isn't available to the hall yet so we have to wait 4 months for the power upgrade and dimmer pack installation (12 channel planned). I'll address one question only as this post is getting long!

We're wiring permanent powerpoints at 1m centres along the FOH bar, leading back to the dimmer pack location. As I understand it these circuits (each point) have a standard power plug on the end which plugs into the dimmer pack control/patch panel? I've been told that I should wire two powerpoints into each plug, working from either end (so position 1 and 12 have one plug, 2 and 11 and so on). In the short term we've been loaned some LED fixtures so I also need some powerpoints next to the dimmer to plug the circuits into for LED use.

Question is, is the above the right way to go and what other cabling needs to go to the powerpoints does each point need DMX cabling to it for LED and future dimmer controlled lights? 

I've been told I use cat5e cabling for DMX and I should put 1 point to the bar only?

I appeciate any help anyone can give.

Thanks 

Paul


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## Les (Dec 19, 2009)

For each pipe, I would wire them as follows:

1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9.

-not-

1,2,3,4,5,4,3,2,1.

Redundancy only causes issues, especially if the matching circuits are on opposing ends of the pipe. I can see how it can be an easy way to tie two fixtures for area lighting, but then you are always tied to that configuration. Wire them all separately at this time. If you only have 'x' amount of dimmers installed, you can tie them together at that time if you have to. 

I would also wire in circuits for non-dim applications. These circuits shouldn't go to the dimmer rack. You can use these for the LED's. See if you can even get as far as wiring them to a switch in the booth.

As far as the cat5 for DMX goes - yes only 1 output per pipe is adequate since DMX devices can be daisy-chained.


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## shiben (Dec 19, 2009)

If I understand the way they want you to drop circuits, that is silly and i would not do it. Try and have 1 channel per 1 position, this is much nicer. In my college's chapel, they have 2 positions per 1 channel of dimming, and its a pain in the rear. Try and have 1 channel per 1 circuit if you can afford to do that. Also, if you can afford to do it, you might want more than 12 channels of dimming. Do you ever intend to do plays in the space, or is it just an assembly hall of sorts? Its always nice to have more dimmers available than you might need right away, because even a simple lighting set will quickly consume a lot of lights.


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## mstaylor (Dec 19, 2009)

I agree with everybody that one plug to one dimmer if possible. If you have to go to two plugs to one dimmer then start at one end or the other and do the 1,2,3,4,5 then start at center and do it again. That way you can tie both sides of an area together. This is a last resort but if you have to use the doubling method that's the best way.


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## chap73 (Dec 19, 2009)

Thank you Les, Shiben and Michael

Just to get it clear in my head. If we have one channel per fitting and have the three bars with say, 12 on the foh, 6 on the stage and 6 on the bos positions I will have 24 cables coming into the AV booth/area (where we're planning to hve the dimmers installed). This would mean 24 cables with 24 plugs and potentially two 12 channel dimmers.

In addition to this we would need some switched powerpoints in the same location so that we can plug some of the plugs into sockets for such things as the LED fixtures. 

As the school won't have dimmers to begin with, if they want to be able to run 12 LED fixtures we would need 12 powerpoints to plug half of the plugs into to liven 12 sockets?

Am I right in my intrepetation that the circuit is literally a socket at the lightbar with cabling running to a plug (a hardwired extension lead in effect)?

Thanks for all your help so far

Paul


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## shiben (Dec 19, 2009)

It depends what kind of LEDs you have. You might be able to daisy chain them together and get away with less circuits, check your type and their requirements.


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## acoppsa (Dec 20, 2009)

Hi Paul,
At our school we have a single socket for each circuit. We have about 50 circuits wired in the building even though we only have 24 dimmers. However we have enough three phase sockets to hire in extra dimmers if we need, so don't worry if you have more circuits than dimmers.
In regard to the non-dim circuits, we have around 6 sockets next to our dimmers but 4 should be plenty for your application because you will probably be able to plug several LED fixtures in the same circuit as long as you have "piggy-back" plugs.
Have a look at some of the pictures on this page Services: Installations , they might show you what I mean.
If you need any advice on specific manufacturers etc in our part of the world, feel free to PM me.


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## chap73 (Dec 20, 2009)

Thanks to everyone for your help so far.

It's all beginning to make sense; I've spoken to several suppliers over the last few weeks and everybody has recommended that we get a 24 channel lighting board (Theatrelight Nova). This fits our budget but I'm concerned that it will not give us enough channels. 

We'll have 24 circuits in total, if we need channels for anything else ie. floor mounted lights is it accepted practice to double up some of the fixtures to single channels - I think a bigger console is going to be out of the budget.

Paul


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## kiwitechgirl (Dec 20, 2009)

Where in New Zealand are you, and who are you talking to in terms of suppliers? I only ask because I'm also in NZ and can probably put you on to a few people who could be very helpful to you, if you haven't already spoken to them! A TheatreLight Nova, while a great little desk, is not going to be much use if you're running LED fixtures, as you'll rapidly run out of channels - you can address them the same to save channels, but it still limits you as they need at least 3 channels each. You can plug more than one light into a dimmer - up to 2400w in total, so you don't necessarily need one dimmer per light. You can also plug more than one LED fixture into a switched socket on the wall - they draw very, very little power so they certainly don't need one socket per fixture. 

Don't wire two sockets into each plug, it will only make life difficult - we have over 250 waylines for only 120 dimmers and it just gives us a lot of flexibility. Paired waylines only restrict you.


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## tcahall (Dec 20, 2009)

With regard to your DMX cabling, if you put one drop per pipe, you are setting yourself up to purchase a DMX splitter as DMX is a daisy chain network. Since you are using CAT 5, it is pretty inexpensive to place a CAT 5 drop at each end of the pipe with a home run connection to the dimmer room. In the dimmer room, you can use a CAT 5 patch panel to terminate the cables. This will allow you to patch them together to create a daisy chain across the pipes or take one from each pipe to an opto splitter, should you choose to do so in the future. Finally, looking forward, if you ever go to Ethernet on your fixtures, it is a point to point network which will require a hub on the pipe or more point to point cables. I don't think this is close enough to justify cabling to every position, but I would definitely put one on each end of each pipe.

Tim.


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## JChenault (Dec 20, 2009)

mstaylor said:


> I agree with everybody that one plug to one dimmer if possible. If you have to go to two plugs to one dimmer then start at one end or the other and do the 1,2,3,4,5 then start at center and do it again. That way you can tie both sides of an area together. This is a last resort but if you have to use the doubling method that's the best way.



While I think that most of us will agree that, give lots of dimmers, one circuit ( Powerpoint in the OP parlance) is best - when you don't have enough dommers ( and 24 is probably not enough) you need to have multiple circuits per dimmer.

I would even go further than mstaylor and suggest that you should look at doubling some dimmers between pipes. Running cables from the third electric to the FOH pipe is a drag. Doubling in this way can make life easier down the road.

Note - this is only in the sense of 'I do not have enough dimmers and I need to make do' not 'This is what I want'

The other point I am not seeing discussed here is any kind of wall pocket or floor pocket.


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## kiwitechgirl (Dec 20, 2009)

JChenault said:


> While I think that most of us will agree that, give lots of dimmers, one circuit ( Powerpoint in the OP parlance) is best - when you don't have enough dommers ( and 24 is probably not enough) you need to have multiple circuits per dimmer.
> 
> I would even go further than mstaylor and suggest that you should look at doubling some dimmers between pipes. Running cables from the third electric to the FOH pipe is a drag. Doubling in this way can make life easier down the road.
> 
> ...



I don't think the OP is talking about having circuits hardwired into the dimmers though - everything I've read indicates that there will be a hard-patch at the dimmer end of things, and so therefore doubling between pipes is redundant - over here in New Zealand we only have one plug system and we're able to piggyback plugs so hard-patching is very easy. More circuits than dimmers in this situation I don't see as a problem - like I said in my earlier post, we have over 250 waylines for 120 dimmers and it means we can pair up as we need to for each different show and design.


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## cutlunch (Dec 20, 2009)

chap73 said:


> Hi
> 
> I'm working on the renovation of a community/school hall over here NZ. Every supplier wants ot give conflicting information about what I should do so I'm looking for a bit of guidance.
> 
> Our stage is 11m wide and 6m deep. I've finally decided that I will put 3 11m long lighting bars in. I'm using galvanised tube not prewired because of the tiny budget. The school only has a roll of 100 students. I plan to site the bars as follows - 1 at 1.5m from back of stage. 1 front of house (about 3m from stage front). 1 behind the procenium - about 2m from front stage.



Is the stage flush with the front of the proscenium or does it jut forwards of it?
Without knowing where the proscenium is in relationship to the stage may make my next question invalid.
The lighting bar behind the proscenium should be no more then one metre from it so you can light the stage near to the proscenium.


chap73 said:


> We're installing an infrastrcture as 3-phase power isn't available to the hall yet so we have to wait 4 months for the power upgrade and dimmer pack installation (12 channel planned). I'll address one question only as this post is getting long!



Have you specified the three phase circuits yet?
You should try to get at least 60 Amps per phase dedicated to the lighting.
However due to cost you may find you land up sharing the load with the general hall / even some classrooms. This can be a real nuisance when it comes to balancing loads.

Do you have an electrician who can do this for you cheaply eg wholesale prices?
Why I ask is you may find that pre-wired bars are the cheaper way to go when labour and cable are considered.
Eg Take for example FOH at 3 metres from the stage then add another 3 metres to get to the dimmer room.

Say 11 non paired sockets at 1 metre intervals on the FOH. Straight off that's 66 metres of cable just from the end of the bar. 
Then add 10 + 9 + 8 + 7 + 6 + 5+ 4 +3 + 2 + 1 = 55 ( I've probably forgotten the odd metre) So about 120 metres of cable just for FOH.

Please excuse me if you have done these calculations already.
NB: Especially as I have just seen you are a Quantity Surveyor.

Also do you have enough suspension points to support the FOH bar for heavy moving lights? Some schools don't when they put their bars up. With standard lights it's not such a problem but when you want to use moving lights and it becomes a problem as they can be quite heavy.



chap73 said:


> We're wiring permanent powerpoints at 1m centres along the FOH bar, leading back to the dimmer pack location. As I understand it these circuits (each point) have a standard power plug on the end which plugs into the dimmer pack control/patch panel? I've been told that I should wire two powerpoints into each plug, working from either end (so position 1 and 12 have one plug, 2 and 11 and so on). In the short term we've been loaned some LED fixtures so I also need some powerpoints next to the dimmer to plug the circuits into for LED use.
> 
> Question is, is the above the right way to go and what other cabling needs to go to the powerpoints does each point need DMX cabling to it for LED and future dimmer controlled lights?
> 
> ...



Finally I get to your question.

Having worked in a number of NZ schools where they have doubled up on circuits on the lighting bars I can tell you that single circuits is the only way to go.

Due to lack of dimmers you can always double up the circuits on a dimmer channel but once you double a circuit you can't split it.

On your FOH I would probably put an even number of ciruits such as 12.
Depending on your money I would probably add another circut in the middle of FOH to run things like Video Projectors.

For the DMX I would run a cat 5 to each lighting bar but have it on the bar as a standard 5 pin XLR outlet. But as mentioned you should use a DMX splitter to drive the line to each bar. Also don't run the cat 5 with the power cables. Although it will take more cable run the CAT 5 in from the end furtherest away from where the power comes into the bars. It may save headaches later.

For powerpoints needed to drive things like the LED lights a number of double points with
a 15 amp circuit rated for each double point set will help. A minium of two sets would be a good start. Most things like Moving lights don't take 10 amps per unit. So you should be able to get two to three units per 15 Amp circuit.
As for the lighting boards, as has been pointed out the Nova 24 would not have enough channels to run the LED lights.

I wouldn't normally suggest it but if the LED lights are all you will have for a while then maybe a DJ's lighting board may do for now.

Eg Surplustronics - 192 Channel DMX Controller
I am not saying get this exact board but it gives you an idea of what I am thinking.
This board would only work with the LED lights but there are others wich handle both moving as well as standard lights. But it could get you going while money is saved for a better board.

I am only suggesting this as a stop gap measure if you can't afford a bigger board.
The minimum board I would get is a Nova 36 but this would not be my first choice.

Another option might be a software computer based lighting desk.
Such as the NZ made Light Factory
LightFactory - Products

The software is quite advanced and will handle both moving lights and conventional lights.
If anything it might be to complicated. But for the price break it might be worth it.
For the the software and USB DMX dongle is about $1000NZ
You can pay more and add the capability to add a physical DMX desk etc.

A show I was involved with recently used it with 4 moving lights and 60 channels of conventional. Apparently it played up one night but a quick exit and reload restored it. But was fine otherwise.

But this was being run on a personal laptop not a dedicated computer so there might have been problems there.

I am in Auckland so if you are between Whangarei and Hamilton approx I could come and see you some time to help sort out what the suppliers are saying if you like.

You can PM me if you like.

Brent


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## chap73 (Dec 20, 2009)

Hi

Sorry I haven't replied to all the help and questions yet - quite a lot of information to digest and respond to!

I really appreciate everyone's help and will look through the thread tonight and post a reply.

Thanks for everyone's input

Paul


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## chap73 (Dec 23, 2009)

Hi Brent


cutlunch said:


> Is the stage flush with the front of the proscenium or does it jut forwards of it?
> Without knowing where the proscenium is in relationship to the stage may make my next question invalid.
> The lighting bar behind the proscenium should be no more then one metre from it so you can light the stage near to the proscenium.


 
The stage finishes about 2m infront of the procenium, the FOH bar is about 3m in front of that and the BOS bar is 1.5m away from the back wall so the bars are spaced, roughly, 5m apart from FOH to BOS


cutlunch said:


> Have you specified the three phase circuits yet?
> You should try to get at least 60 Amps per phase dedicated to the lighting.
> However due to cost you may find you land up sharing the load with the general hall / even some classrooms. This can be a real nuisance when it comes to balancing loads.
> 
> ...


 
I think our electrician said we can get 50a per phase but we won't know for sure until we get the new transformer installed in several months. The hall is just outside the school grounds as it is a rural school so it has its own power supply.


cutlunch said:


> Also do you have enough suspension points to support the FOH bar for heavy moving lights? Some schools don't when they put their bars up. With standard lights it's not such a problem but when you want to use moving lights and it becomes a problem as they can be quite heavy.


 
I'll have to look at this one, at the moment we've got one suspension point at each end and then at 1800mm centres - this lines up so we have suspension points on roof truss positions. I think this will be okay unless anyone can tell me different.




cutlunch said:


> Having worked in a number of NZ schools where they have doubled up on circuits on the lighting bars I can tell you that single circuits is the only way to go.
> 
> Due to lack of dimmers you can always double up the circuits on a dimmer channel but once you double a circuit you can't split it.
> 
> ...


 
I had planned to put the CAT5 socket in the ceiling at the end of the bar (would CAT6 or CAT5e be better?). I had planned a standard socket - is the 5 Pin XLR the way to go?


cutlunch said:


> For powerpoints needed to drive things like the LED lights a number of double points with a 15 amp circuit rated for each double point set will help. A minium of two sets would be a good start. Most things like Moving lights don't take 10 amps per unit. So you should be able to get two to three units per 15 Amp circuit.
> As for the lighting boards, as has been pointed out the Nova 24 would not have enough channels to run the LED lights.


 
The latest plan was for four single, unswitched, 10 amp sockets. Would this be sufficient over here in NZ?

I think we will probably use the NOVA 36, but the software option looks really interesting. I'll look into that.


Thanks for all of the help.

Paul


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## tjrobb (Dec 23, 2009)

I won't comment on power needs as I only work in the US, but I can comment on the Cat5.

For Ethernet you shouldn't run LESS than Cat6 - Cat5 is obsolete (except for voice) and 5e not much better (IMO). If you are only running DMX you may be able to use 5e, but if plan to use an Ethernet-based DMX in the future I would run 6 for the lines. At the least you don't have to pull better lines in the future.


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## chap73 (Dec 23, 2009)

tjrobb said:


> I won't comment on power needs as I only work in the US, but I can comment on the Cat5.
> 
> For Ethernet you shouldn't run LESS than Cat6 - Cat5 is obsolete (except for voice) and 5e not much better (IMO). If you are only running DMX you may be able to use 5e, but if plan to use an Ethernet-based DMX in the future I would run 6 for the lines. At the least you don't have to pull better lines in the future.


 
So I need to put CAT6 in with a 5 pin XLR point - this can then be used for the DMX control of the lights and will 'future-proof' the installation - have I understood that correctly?

Paul


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## cutlunch (Dec 23, 2009)

chap73 said:


> Hi Brent
> 
> 
> The stage finishes about 2m infront of the procenium, the FOH bar is about 3m in front of that and the BOS bar is 1.5m away from the back wall so the bars are spaced, roughly, 5m apart from FOH to BOS



Thanks for the measurements it gives me a better picture.
But I would still make the bar just inside proscenium no more then 1 metre from the proscenium so you can light the stage close to the proscenium without having too much of a dark spot. This is somewhat dependant on the height of the proscenium arch and the height of the FOH bar. If the FOH bar is to high then light from there will only fall on the front of stage leaving a band under the proscenium. To low and the light from there will go to far upstage. The ideal angle from the bar to the stage is 45 degrees theorectically but it's not always possible.


chap73 said:


> I think our electrician said we can get 50a per phase but we won't know for sure until we get the new transformer installed in several months. The hall is just outside the school grounds as it is a rural school so it has its own power supply.
> 
> The latest plan was for four single, unswitched, 10 amp sockets. Would this be sufficient over here in NZ?


You won't be able to change the 50a per phase without the transformer costing quite a bit more. If you get all the 50 amps then it should be enough. The only problem is when the start taking some to light and heat the hall.

The four single 10 amp sockets should be alright if they are each on their own seprate 10 amp fused circuit or two on a 20 Amp fused circuit.

At home total up the amperage as 10 amps per each switched socket you have. Then look at the ratings of the circuit breakers / fuse holders assigned to power points in your switchboard. You will probaly find that the actual available power from the switchboard is lower then the total of all the power plugs at 10 amps.

The same can be done in offices / schools etc. The basis for this is that it unlikely every socket will be fully loaded. 



chap73 said:


> I'll have to look at this one, at the moment we've got one suspension point at each end and then at 1800mm centres - this lines up so we have suspension points on roof truss positions. I think this will be okay unless anyone can tell me different.



That spacing will be fine, there is a lot more suspension points then I thought there would be.
The only thing is how much weight each suspension point can handle.
I would work on having each 1.8 metre section being able to bear a weight of 50Kg's + pipe weight preferably 100Kgs + pipe weight then you would never have problem.
But as a quantity surveyor you'll know more about load bearing then I will.


chap73 said:


> I had planned to put the CAT5 socket in the ceiling at the end of the bar (would CAT6 or CAT5e be better?). I had planned a standard socket - is the 5 Pin XLR the way to go?



Unless you plan to have a lot money to buy fancy lighting desks then CAT 6 wouldn't be needed. Cat 5 is more then high spec enough for the DMX signal.

Here's a link about DMX512 and Cat 5 showing the standard way to wire Cat 5 for DMX512.
DMX512 FAQ - USITT

Your dimmer packs and Nova desk should use 5 Pin XLR connectors so I would try and stick to that as the main connectors. This is also because proper DMX512 cable is more flexible which is what you need when you run DMX512 to individual units. The Cat 5 is designed for fixed wiring. So you can use it to run to the bars ok.

Although depending on the quality of the LED lighting you are being loaned you might find they only use a 3 Pin XLR so you might need to make an adaptor. But as you daisy chain the DMX units you would only need an adaptor at the start of each daisy chain. Remembering that if you have a DMX units on each bar it might pay to get a DMX splitter and run one output to each bar. They normaly have one input 4 outputs typically.

If you are only going to have LED lights for the next few years and they only have 3 Pin XLR you could wire for them. But it would probably be best to use 5 Pin.

Hope this helps.
Brent


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## kiwitechgirl (Dec 23, 2009)

chap73 said:


> The latest plan was for four single, unswitched, 10 amp sockets. Would this be sufficient over here in NZ?



Provided you can get 10A per socket without overloading the ring main, absolutely. We've got four single switched sockets in our dimmer room for hard power, and currently they're running six Mac250s, three Mac600s, about ten LED bars, a baby compressor for a hazer and a 2kW smoke machine without any problems.


chap73 said:


> I think we will probably use the NOVA 36, but the software option looks really interesting. I'll look into that.



IMHO, don't bother. While it is a great piece of software, in a school situation you really do want "handles" so that a teacher who knows nothing about lighting can switch the desk on and bring up lights by pushing a fader. A software solution, while giving you a lot of power for your dollars, is much more complicated for someone with no knowledge to operate - there's a very good reason why you'll find a TL desk in the majority of schools around the country! The Nova is a solid, easy-to-use yet surprisingly powerful little desk.


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## tjrobb (Dec 24, 2009)

To elaborate on previous posts, you can run 5e for just DMX, but if you plan on running Ethernet I would recommend 6 (eDMX should be fine over 5e as well, it doesn't require the speed capabilities of 6). In most cases though, 5e will be fine for DMX.


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## Soxred93 (Dec 24, 2009)

If you plan for forward-compatibility, Cat6 is what you should use.


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## mstaylor (Dec 24, 2009)

Soxred93 said:


> If you plan for forward-compatibility, Cat6 is what you should use.



I agree with the Cat6. Why limit the capabilities for a few pennies. It's true for DMX you don't need it but Cat5 is at the end of it's usefulness, so why put something in that could be obsolete in a few years.


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## chap73 (Dec 24, 2009)

Thanks, from the ends of the lighting bars should the CAT6/5e run to the dimmer packs (which are near the stage) or the lighting desk at the back of the hall?

Am I going to cause the school problems placing the dimmer packs (when they eventually get the power required) in a cupboard by the stage. It had thought that they were going to go in a cupboard (which is not very big) with grilles with filters in the doors and an extractor fan to run when they are being used.

Paul


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## MarshallPope (Dec 24, 2009)

It depends on where you will put your DMX splitter eventually. The Cat5/6 will not need to run through the dimmer, but you may find that location to be a good place to distribute the DMX signal from. Just make sure that it is easily accessible should you need to repatch the lines. It would probably be cheaper to just run one line (or 2 or however many DMX universes you will use) to backstage and then distribute from there.


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## chap73 (Dec 24, 2009)

MarshallPope said:


> It depends on where you will put your DMX splitter eventually. The Cat5/6 will not need to run through the dimmer, but you may find that location to be a good place to distribute the DMX signal from. Just make sure that it is easily accessible should you need to repatch the lines. It would probably be cheaper to just run one line (or 2 or however many DMX universes you will use) to backstage and then distribute from there.


 
Sorry, I'm still not sure of where the splitter comes in? If I've got a cat6 from each end of the lighting bars (making a total of 6 runs) going into the dimmer cupboard will that not take care of it - I think I've completely misunderstood the use of the DMX/cat6 cable? Originally I had been told that I just needed to run one DMX cable from the end of each lighting bar back to the lighting desk - have I been given bad advice by the lighting supplier?

Sorry if I appear stupid, I've digested a lot of info in a short space of time and some of it's not 'clicking'!

Paul


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## shiben (Dec 24, 2009)

What your looking at needing is something called an opto-isolated splitter, and the use of this is to properly split the signal and distribute it out to each output. this device will keep the signal from having issues on the various devices.


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## MarshallPope (Dec 24, 2009)

I'm sorry, I should have explained better. The DMX signal will come from the lighting board to the stage. Generally, there will be one continuous line from the board to the first fixture to the second fixture to the third fixture and so on until you get to the last fixture. You can either go down one lighting bar then cable from that to the next bar or you can split the signal so that you can run one cable to each bar rather than wiring everything together. If you are not going to be using the DMX right off, you don't really need to worry about this yet. However, what I am assuming that the supplier is thinking is that there will eventually be a splitter at the same location as the dimmers. This will take the line coming from the desk and send the signal to the six lighting bars.

I could be misunderstanding you, and if I am, I apologize, and I hope that someone else will confirm this for you or say that I am completely wrong....


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## mstaylor (Dec 24, 2009)

It might be clearer with a quick DMX lesson. You will be running what is known as an one universe system, this means you will have 512 DMX channels. You need to either daisy chain all the lights or you have to split the lines. This can only be done with an opto splitter, any other way creates DMX bounce or echos that will make your lights do wierd things. What your supplier was probably thinking was you were only running conventionals so you only needed a line from the board to the dimmer. 
Since you will be using LEDs you will signal for them. What I would do, and it's been suggested already, is run the cable from the board to your dimmer location, then put an opto splitter at the dimmer location and plug your Cat6 into them. 
Hopefully this helps you understand our advice. Remember that you will have to daisy chain the LEDs on each catwalk. The conventionals will get their signal from the dimmers.


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## SHARYNF (Dec 24, 2009)

A couple of things to consider, and perhaps someone from ETC may want to comment further.

Basically there are two different situations here, one is using CatX cable to run an ethernet based lighting protocol that is then either supported directly by the device or converted to standard dmx

The other case is running actual DMX over CatX cable.

If you are using the former, ie an Ethernet derivative, then I would go with Cat6 cable for future use. Make sure you remember the cable limits, there is a 300 foot limit on the direct run (which is typically solid core) and a 30 foot limit in the final patch cable (which is typically made from stranded)

If you are running true DMX over Cat 6 then I would think that you might need to look at a shielding conduit for a more problem free install or using the shielded version of the cable. Typically the shield in the cable is only connected at one end for ethernet . I know the twisting is supposed to off set the problems of not shielding, but IMO it is not as robust a solution, and if you start having problems after the install you are going to go crazy. As I mentioned there are STP cable versions that might make more sense. DMX in its native format is NOT a very fast protocol and so the benefits of Cat6 might not be there especially over some of the shielded cables. On the other hand if you are running an Ethernet based system then the added speed might be of value in the future.

In the future I think more and more systems are going to go the direction of Ethernet based, BUT today, the most reliable problem free cabling system for native DMX is proper dmx cable.

Sharyn


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## tcahall (Dec 25, 2009)

chap73 said:


> So I need to put CAT6 in with a 5 pin XLR point - this can then be used for the DMX control of the lights and will 'future-proof' the installation - have I understood that correctly?
> 
> Paul



The CAT 5 vs CAT 6 argument gets very technical, and very esoteric, very quickly. If you are planning on running gigabit Ethernet to the bars, then CAT 6 is a good idea. If you think 100 Mb/s will transport your lighting control signals for the foreseeable future, CAT 5 or CAT 5e is fine.

WIth regard to termination, I would put an 8 pin RJ-45 jack on a faceplate on the bars (at each end). Then have a batch of RJ-45 to XLR-3 and XLR-5 (male and female) adapters made to plug in at each end of the bar (male at one end, female at the other). This future proofs your installation, allows easy installation of current technology and allows an upgrade to Ethernet by ditching the adapters.

Tim.


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## shiben (Dec 26, 2009)

tcahall said:


> The CAT 5 vs CAT 6 argument gets very technical, and very esoteric, very quickly. If you are planning on running gigabit Ethernet to the bars, then CAT 6 is a good idea. If you think 100 Mb/s will transport your lighting control signals for the foreseeable future, CAT 5 or CAT 5e is fine.
> 
> WIth regard to termination, I would put an 8 pin RJ-45 jack on a faceplate on the bars (at each end). Then have a batch of RJ-45 to XLR-3 and XLR-5 (male and female) adapters made to plug in at each end of the bar (male at one end, female at the other). This future proofs your installation, allows easy installation of current technology and allows an upgrade to Ethernet by ditching the adapters.
> 
> Tim.



Make sure you use the etherCON for your RJ-45 jacks. This way, your adapters will lock in using a more robust format then the plastic clip. This will save you hassle of taping your adapters to the pipe, and will work longer term. 

Neutrik - Data Connectors - etherCON Cable Connector Carriers - NE8MC

Note, this will not keep you from using a standard ethernet cable either, so if you needed to plug in a stand alone CAT6, or use the EtherCON cables.


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## chap73 (Dec 26, 2009)

shiben said:


> Make sure you use the etherCON for your RJ-45 jacks. This way, your adapters will lock in using a more robust format then the plastic clip. This will save you hassle of taping your adapters to the pipe, and will work longer term.
> 
> Neutrik - Data Connectors - etherCON Cable Connector Carriers - NE8MC
> 
> Note, this will not keep you from using a standard ethernet cable either, so if you needed to plug in a stand alone CAT6, or use the EtherCON cables.


 
That answers what was going to be my next question which was - I assume something like this would be a good choice!

Audio Video Wholesalers

Thanks for all the help I'm getting. I wish I had found this site 3 months ago - the information and help I'm finding here exceeds that given by suppliers!

Paul


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## mstaylor (Dec 26, 2009)

chap73 said:


> That answers what was going to be my next question which was - I assume something like this would be a good choice!
> 
> Audio Video Wholesalers
> 
> ...


I don't mean to offend anyone but some suppliers shouldn't be. I have dealt with some that I had to teach them how their equipment worked. This is an exception, there some great guys out there but some could just well be selling shoes.


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## chap73 (Dec 26, 2009)

mstaylor said:


> I don't mean to offend anyone but some suppliers shouldn't be. I have dealt with some that I had to teach them how their equipment worked. This is an exception, there some great guys out there but some could just well be selling shoes.


 
I didn't mean to offend anyone either - I'm sure most suppliers are really helpful and like mstaylor said this is an exception . I guess getting advice from end users makes it easier to ensure you get the right set-up. 

Paul


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## NJLX (Dec 27, 2009)

I would definitely recommend getting as many dimmers as you have the money/power to support. Also, run circuits individually from the lighting positions/bars/floor pockets to a central patch panel, where you can plug them into any dimmer you want. this way, you're not locked into any specific doubling arrangement, and can change your circuits around depending on what you need. 

As far as control goes, make sure you get something that has enough channels to support your dimmers. If you plan on using movers, I would strongly recommend having wheels or encoders of some type (not just normal faders) for ease of use, especially in a school setting. 

I would recommend an ETC board, but that's just what I have experience with, so it's rather biased.

For dimmer location: someplace where they have adequate ventilation, and don't cause noise on stage. relatively easy access would be a good idea, in case anything goes wrong or you need to change any settings.


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## cutlunch (Dec 28, 2009)

Hi Paul

Unless you are likely to be given a really big budget for the lighting in the next couple of years I wouldn't use ethernet connectors.

If you use ethernet sockets at the end of each DMX line you will have to buy adaptors.
You will be better off just using 5 Pin XLR sockets. Every time you have an adaptor it is something else to loose. And from experience in schools they will get lost.

The cupboard idea for dimmers might not work based on a standard cupboard design.

As well as the space you need for the dimmers you need to allow room for the 3 phase power. You should have at least 3 switched 3 phase outlets. Don't put the 3 phase outlets to close in a vertcal line or too close to horizontal shelf sticking out past them. This because some dimmer packs have right angle plugs as opposed to straight ones.

Plus the single phase power outlets.

Also you need space for the patch panel. Your one will need probably at least 33 plugs based on your lighting bar design. There are multiple designs for patch panels. 
There are some prefabricated ones you can buy or custom build your own.

So instead of a cupboard I would make it more like an alcove, wider then it is deeper. Then put metal grill doors on it to allow for better ventilation.

I'll be interested to see what you do for final design.

Brent


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## chap73 (Dec 28, 2009)

cutlunch said:


> Hi Paul
> 
> Unless you are likely to be given a really big budget for the lighting in the next couple of years I wouldn't use ethernet connectors.
> 
> ...


 
The way the space has worked out has left me with a space to the side of the stage which I'd planned to use for the dimmers. I was looking at putting some doors with large grilles on them (possibly filters). The inside of the cupboard measures (approx) 1.6m wide, 0.76m deep and 2.8m tall. I would put an extractor in to give some airflow too. 

Paul


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## Anonymous067 (Dec 28, 2009)

Might I suggest a real rack instead of a makeshift one? In the grand scheme of things, a real metal rack designed for this purpose may work better and look more professional in the long run. Especially if you're going to have three phase in it, I would feel more comfortable having it all run in a professional and real case.


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## chap73 (Dec 28, 2009)

Blah067 said:


> Might I suggest a real rack instead of a makeshift one? In the grand scheme of things, a real metal rack designed for this purpose may work better and look more professional in the long run. Especially if you're going to have three phase in it, I would feel more comfortable having it all run in a professional and real case.


 
Not sure if I've been misunderstood but the space I was talking about for the dimmers is actually part of the building not a makeshift rack. I think the architect who has redesigned the space originally saw it as a storage cupboard but we're looking at utilising it for the dimmers. The dimmers we've been looking at are wall mount theatrelight comets. 

Paul


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## kiwitechgirl (Dec 29, 2009)

chap73 said:


> The dimmers we've been looking at are wall mount theatrelight comets.



Why? They are nice little packs, but they have some bells and whistles which aren't going to be much use to you. Also, you only get six channels per 32amp 3-phase - yes, you can load them more heavily, but more channels at a lower rating is much more use to you as it gives you far more flexibility. The Theatrelight PowerPack would be a much better option; 12 10-amp channels per 32amp 3-phase; they're units which have been around for donkey's years and are still going strong. They don't need a rack built for them, as they stack on top of each other; the sockets are on the front, not the back (the Comet's are on the back so you'd have to mount them sideways to be able to get at the back and front of them) and they're incredibly robust with very little to go wrong - the Comet has much more electronic gubbins to have problems with! I would really advise against the Comet as it's just not a unit that is 100% suited to your needs. The PowerPacks may be a little more expensive (I don't have access to a TL price list so I'm not sure) but honestly, it is well worth it. My local hire company has one Comet pack, and it spends 99% of its time on the shelf, only going out when all the other packs are out on hire, or we need a 10amp single-phase dimmer.


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## acoppsa (Dec 29, 2009)

Hi Paul,
I second what kiwitechgirl said in the previous post. We have had two powerpacks for the past 5 years and have never had any problems with them. We have also just bought two more packs for our hall. I would recommend getting these over the other Theatrelight dimmers because from the info I've got from the website it looks like they will be the most useful for what your application.
Hope you're enjoying your Kiwi holidays 
Aidan


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## cutlunch (Dec 29, 2009)

chap73 said:


> Not sure if I've been misunderstood but the space I was talking about for the dimmers is actually part of the building not a makeshift rack. I think the architect who has redesigned the space originally saw it as a storage cupboard but we're looking at utilising it for the dimmers. The dimmers we've been looking at are wall mount theatrelight comets.
> 
> Paul



Blah067 it was my post that probably caused the confusion.
What I meant was they could use prebuilt patch panels available off the shelf or have a custom built panel made.

Brent


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## cutlunch (Dec 29, 2009)

acoppsa said:


> Hi Paul,
> I second what kiwitechgirl said in the previous post. We have had two powerpacks for the past 5 years and have never had any problems with them. We have also just bought two more packs for our hall. I would recommend getting these over the other Theatrelight dimmers because from the info I've got from the website it looks like they will be the most useful for what your application.
> Hope you're enjoying your Kiwi holidays
> Aidan



I am with Aidan and Kiwitechgirl on not using the commet packs.

I agree with her that the comet would be a waste.
For a start just to get the 12 channels you want to start with you land up using two 3 phase outlets. If yo wanted only 6 channels then I would go for the Satelite packs as opposed to the Comet packs. I put two in a church a few years ago because at the time there were supply problems with a 12 channel digital pack. They have worked well.

And having the plugs at the back of the dimmer might make it hard for the students.
I am not sure of the age of the students but the packs would probably land up scratched.
If I was going to put in that sort of pack I would have them rewired so there weren't sockets on the back but the channels were brought out to the patch panel. Which would add cost to a patch panel.

The Powerpack means that you can start with your twelve channels for day to day use.
But then when you do a show most hire places will have this style of dimmer so you just put them on top of your existing one hookup the DMX, power and away you go.

A community theatre I was involved got some new packs. They were the rack mount versions. While they worked well, it was awkward to plug up at the back of the pack. But we were lucky a supplier took them back and replaced them with the PowerPack version.
The theatre already had the Pre-DMX version of these packs so everything just stacked up OK.

The Meteor packs would be nice but probably priced out of your range.
Also you probably wouldn't use some of the extra features such as Non-dim, inductive loads etc often enough to justify the extra cost.

Brent

Ps

The shool probably already has a suitable ladder / scaffold to reach the lighting bars but if
not you need to budget for one. When I did the church install they just went down the road to hire a ladder. But I pointed out to them there was no point in spending thousands upgrading the lighting if you couldn't change the lighting around easily. They got a ladder.


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## chap73 (Dec 29, 2009)

Thanks All

Sorry - got that all wrong. It was the Meteor I was looking at with the optional patch panel not the Comet.

The Powerpack is actually an item which I had looked at right at the start but was talked out of, this is cheaper than the Meteor when you include the Meteor patch panel. 

Which would I be better off with? 


Paul


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## cutlunch (Dec 29, 2009)

Paul

Which is better is a bit of a hard question to answer.

If you had the budget to buy all the dimmer packs right now I would probably go for a Meteor install with a minimum of 36 channels.

But because you can only have the budget to get the dimmers piecemeal I would go with the PowerPack. A new PowerPack can be installed by anyone, a Meteor is an electrician's job.

Also if a PowerPack fails you can hire another one while while the faulty one goes away to be fixed. With the Meteor you would need a technician to come to the school and Tauranga probably won't have a qualified theatrelight trained one.

So I am still in favour of the PowerPack units.

Brent

Ps Did you get my PM?


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## chap73 (Dec 29, 2009)

Hi Brent

Yes, received your PM, sorry haven't replied yet. Not in the office til Tuesday to look at diary.

Another question that came up earlier in the thread (which I'm sure I'll regret asking!)


JChenault said:


> The other point I am not seeing discussed here is any kind of wall pocket or floor pocket.


 
I know what these are - we're planning on installing one on the side of the stage to start with - I had planned mainly for audio with 8 connectors, and one power point. I guess I probably should add another powerpoint, DMX and data? 

Are these best in the floor or the wall?

I know one is not enough - we've designed the stage so that we can get access in the future to install more - conduits in wall with access panels too.

Does anyone know of a supplier in NZ for these or abroad that will ship internationally? Also, the Neutrik connectors we are looking at for the lighting dmx cabling etc are panel mount - I can't find a panel supplier either?

Thanks

Paul


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## Anonymous067 (Dec 29, 2009)

cutlunch said:


> Blah067 it was my post that probably caused the confusion.
> What I meant was they could use prebuilt patch panels available off the shelf or have a custom built panel made.
> 
> Brent



Not what I was referring to. I was under the impression some type of makeshift rack was being used to enclose the dimmer, as opposed to a steal/metal rack.


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## cutlunch (Jan 1, 2010)

Blah067 said:


> Not what I was referring to. I was under the impression some type of makeshift rack was being used to enclose the dimmer, as opposed to a steal/metal rack.



The type of dimmers we are suggesting (Theatrelight New Zealand Ltd) are portable and don't need a metal rack.

A well made wooden bench works just as well.
The discussion is about the best way of putting the dimmers in a purpose designed cupboard, while still providing good ventilation and access to patch panels, power etc etc.
Unfortunatley in this situation the dimmers need to be recessed to save space and prevent unwanted access.

Brent


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## cutlunch (Jan 1, 2010)

chap73 said:


> Hi Brent
> 
> Another question that came up earlier in the thread (which I'm sure I'll regret asking!)
> 
> ...



There are a lot of New Zealand suppliers.
It is a matter searching for them.

In Tauranga there is a place that does AV installs. (Audio Visual Concepts, Tauranga)

So they should be able to help you source a lot of the stuff although they may do it on an install only basis.

Jansen's in Auckland sell a lot of stuff although their website doesn't show pictures for all the stuff.
(Jansen Your Specialist Professional Audio and Lighting Shop)

Waikato Sound and Lighting does installations. Look under their contact details for the installation guy.
(Waikato Sound & Lighting - Hire - Sales - Repairs - HOME)

There's plenty of others Like Barton Sound and Occenia Audio in Auckland.
The suppliers you have been talking to about lighting might also be able to supply parts.

Volt Electronics is an online shop I have just come across and they carry XLR connectors.
I found a 1 unit high rack mount plate pre-punched for 12 XLR connectors.
These are meant to go into rack mount cases. But I have seen professional companies just make wooden alcoves to the 19" size and screw things like this on.
Rack Panel 19" 12 Way XLR - 1U : Discount Electronics

Even your electrican may be able to get some of this stuff from his wholesalers.
230 volt power plugs for floor mounting.

Depending on the use you will put this hall to I would probably have a wall mounted power socket inside the proscenium on both sides. Also a floor mount one center near the front of the stage. Data ie internet can be useful if the school will let you connect.
Are you planning on a fixed projector from the ceiling? If you are then adding a cable jack for this on stage can be useful.

This gives flexibilty for presentations. Some people will be on the sides especially if using a projector, others dead center.

Now you have brought sound into it the postings that should be almost a new topic started under "sound".

With the sound there's more to consider then for the lighting in someways.
E.g. will there be a permanent sound desk postion in the hall etc.

Getting the panels and connectors won't be that hard. The hard part is working out what you actually need.

Brent

P.s Do you have a usage description for this venue?
Eg School assemblies, plays. Community meetings, sports - Badminton, indoor bowls etc?


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## chap73 (Jan 1, 2010)

cutlunch said:


> P.s Do you have a usage description for this venue?
> Eg School assemblies, plays. Community meetings, sports - Badminton, indoor bowls etc?


 
All of the above!

It is currently a community hall - shared by a small school. We are refurbishing the existing hall (typical old NZ hall) and adding on a stage, storage rooms, and community room. It will be used for all of the above plus playgroup, school music lessons etc. 

We are starting the building work next week - I've been held up on the lighting and sound by conflicting advice (until I found CB).

I'll start a 'sound' topic as suggetsed. Hopefully I've got this pretty much sorted already.


Thanks

Paul


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