# "Crossroads LED" for Source Four (HPL replacement)?



## jgels (Mar 13, 2012)

Hi all,
So I found this 
LEDs Magazine - Crossroads LED develops replacement for ETC Source Four PAR lamp

It claims to be a replacement for the source four hpl bulb and I was wondering what people's thoughts were on this. This is the only evidence I see of this product existing. 

Thoughts?


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## Esoteric (Mar 13, 2012)

*re: "Crossroads LED" for Source Four (HPL replacement)?*

Yeti.

You notice they never said anything about its dimming curve.


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## JD (Mar 13, 2012)

*re: "Crossroads LED" for Source Four (HPL replacement)?*

What is with these press releases that leave more questions then you started with? Nothing on their site, no idea if it is DMX or just an AC plug unit that kind-of dims. No info about color temperature, what type of mix of LEDs they are using. As far as I can tell, it may just be an architectural unit in line with the HID S4 PAR. But then again, no info, no idea!


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## derekleffew (Mar 13, 2012)

From CROSSROADS LED - Complete LED Lighting Solution Specialists :

> It generates advanced lighting effects and features that are superior over the cumbersome and antiquated DMX stage lighting controls used by the competition.


Well, finally! It's about time. I can't wait to stop using those "cumbersome and antiquated" EOSes and gMA2s.


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## MNicolai (Mar 13, 2012)

My question is, who's trying to fire up 2MW of S4 PAR's?

Unusual facts for the day:

+ 2MW would mean there are 3500 fixtures in question.
+ 3500 fixtures, put in a square array on 12" centers, would create an array 59' tall by 59' wide.
+ At an incentive of $175/kW-saved, and 1,700kW fewer in the overall energy consumption, the value if the upgrade would be $300k.
+ If you powered on 2MW of fixtures via feeder cable with mains rated at 400A and loaded them to 100%, you would need 41 legs of 120v to turn the system on, which means 14 disconnect panels.

I can't be the only one who thinks this press release sounds fishy.


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## shiben (Mar 13, 2012)

MNicolai said:


> My question is, who's trying to fire up 2MW of S4 PAR's?
> 
> Unusual facts for the day:
> 
> ...



You dont have 14 disconnect panels full of S4 PARs? I thought that was standard equipment in most theaters...


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## MNicolai (Mar 13, 2012)

shiben said:


> You dont have 14 disconnect panels full of S4 PARs? I thought that was standard equipment in most theaters...



We would if not for the 9 company switches we have tied up for our Kliegel inventory.


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## derekleffew (Mar 13, 2012)

MNicolai said:


> My question is, who's trying to fire up 2MW of S4 PAR's?


I suspect that the Detroit Auto Show each year comes close. Or used to, until other than incandescent sources became prominent. See Green Detroit Auto Show Just For Show? - Life Goggles : Life Goggles and Largest Right Arm Install To Date … | From The Horse's Mouth .

See also PRG AutoPAR.


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## shiben (Mar 13, 2012)

derekleffew said:


> I suspect that the Detroit Auto Show each year comes close. Or used to, until other than incandescent sources became prominent. See Green Detroit Auto Show Just For Show? - Life Goggles : Life Goggles and Largest Right Arm Install To Date … | From The Horse's Mouth .



Or figure most large conventions take up a load of power. Often times I will deal with one booth that might be drawing 400A, so I would imagine the entire floor of any really large conference would take up 3200 PARs...


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## Eriksrocks (Mar 14, 2012)

How has no one mentioned the CRI? Unless their are using them all no-color, I can't imagine dropping gel in this thing would look too good...


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## Esoteric (Mar 14, 2012)

My electrician did the electrical renovation at the Dallas Convention Center. There is tons of power available. Dont know how much is in use at any one time.


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## MNicolai (Mar 14, 2012)

Eriksrocks said:


> How has no one mentioned the CRI? Unless their are using them all no-color, I can't imagine dropping gel in this thing would look too good...



Following towards the convention center idea -- I don't know that CRI matters (as much). Bet they're almost exclusively being used as no-color. Any gels used are probably for white-balance correction or diffusion. This isn't LDI where the light is the product and the trade show floors are generally dark. If you look at the auto-show stuff, the name of the game is [as-white] and [as-bright] as possible. Lots of soft-lighting there too.


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## tdeater (Mar 14, 2012)

I just got an email from Crossroads LED about these bulbs. Here is what they say right now:


> Thank you for your interest in our company and its products. Our web designer is updating the company’s webpage with our latest products and spec sheets, they should be available soon.
> 
> The units are dimmable utilizing either trailing edge (what most dimming controls now use) or triac dimmers. The starting price for the retrofit luminaire is $460.00 with volume discounts available.
> 
> ...



He also attached the following 2 pictures:


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## JD (Mar 14, 2012)

This is the type of line that bothers me:

_"The units are dimmable utilizing either trailing edge (what most dimming controls now use) or triac dimmers."_

One is a concept and one is a device. It would be like saying, "This car works with a high performance engine or pistons."

Maybe it was a slip of the tongue (or keyboard) but this and other comments give me concern as to how reliable the information about this unit will be.


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## derekleffew (Mar 14, 2012)

JD said:


> _
> 
> 
> "The units are dimmable utilizing either trailing edge (what most dimming controls now use) ... "
> ...


And, in fact, the vast majority of theatrical dimmers (Sensor, CD80, and so on) are Dimmer, Forward Phase-Control (leading edge dimmers), NOT trailing edge (Dimmer, Reverse Phase-Control).

As best I can tell, TRIAC s can be operated either way, but again, the majority are *forward* phase-control.


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## Kelite (Mar 14, 2012)

For those interested in reading more about the company-

Startup shines on race day | Tulsa World


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## JD (Mar 14, 2012)

Kelite said:


> For those interested in reading more about the company-
> 
> Startup shines on race day | Tulsa World



Very young company, and here in the states. Guess I'll cut them a break as they are still in the learning curve. They just stepped into the theater world and I suspect they are in for the steep part of that curve. Expectations in the amusement industry are quite different then expectations in the theater.


derekleffew said:


> As best I can tell, TRIAC s can be operated either way, but again, the majority are *forward* phase-control.



Once a triac is switched on, it will not turn off until the forward current drops below a certain level. An IGBT can switch off. As far as I know, reverse phase dimmers use IGBTs.


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## DavidNorth (Mar 14, 2012)

Triacs and SCRs are forward-phase devices. IGBTs and MOSFETs can be fired as forward-phase, reverse-phase or sine wave, depending on support electronics and software.

Forward-phase is predominant in theatre and architectural supporting tungsten, resistive, magnetic low voltage, neon and cold cathode. Reverse-phase is very common for electronic low voltage transformers, and some line-level LED drivers. 

Anyone else notice that the LED element has no power cord?

David


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## jgels (Mar 14, 2012)

tdeater said:


> I just got an email from Crossroads LED about these bulbs. Here is what they say right now:
> 
> 
> 
> He also attached the following 2 pictures:



I notice that they don't seem to know to be specific between a source four and a source four par either.


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## GForce (Jun 26, 2014)

Has anyone seen these LEDs in the Wild? Are they still $460? Google produced 0 shopping results.


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## sk8rsdad (Jun 26, 2014)

A few observations. They reference a Source Four EA, which would be a PAR replacement. Not surprising since the lensing required to behave like an ellipsoidal isn't there. It's either a 14 degree or 24 degree LED wash fixture.

There's some pretty wonky math going on in their marketing literature. They claim 115 lm/W which would be about 4 times as efficient as an HPL 575. In the same literature they claim they are 600 times more efficient. There's some pretty creative math going on. They also claim a maximum of 9700 lm which is about 2/3 of an HPL 575. Most curious.


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## DELO72 (Jun 27, 2014)

This article and post are over 2 years old. Since no one has heard of this item on the market since that time, we can all assume this did not perform as promoted.....


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## BillConnerFASTC (Jun 27, 2014)

DELO72 said:


> This article and post are over 2 years old. Since no one has heard of this item on the market since that time, we can all assume this did not perform as promoted.....



or did not perform at all. Vaporware.


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## JCBigler (Jun 27, 2014)

Hello friends,

Though I am a brand new member to Control Booth, you can find a lengthy post history by me, under my real name at The Pro Sound Web: Live Audio Board, The Sound Forums Network, the Theatre Sound Listserv, and under my user name JCBigler at The Avid Pro Audio Community. 

I am also the house sound technician at the Tulsa Performing Arts Center in Tulsa, Oklahoma.

I believe to date, that we are the only facility to purchase any quantity of the Crossroads LED retrofit kits for the ETC Pars, and we also have a sizable number of their work light product (the Altman retrofit kit). I can not divulge all of the details as we still have business pending with Crossroads LED, and there are some internal personnel matters at play here. I would not call them vaporware as I have several pallets of product that I can put my hands on in a matter of seconds. I can, however, say that the statement

> we can all assume this did not perform as promoted.....


 is an accurate description of their product line. Unfortunately, we have spent a lot of money on products that we can not use, did not perform as required, and in some cases actually caught fire during the install process. We were basically sold several pallets of snake oil. 

I would recommend that anyone who is considering the Crossroads LED theatrical units find another supplier. If your facility is considering them, or has purchased product, feel free to PM and we can talk in more detail


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## microstar (Jun 27, 2014)

As Keith Jackson used to say.... WHOA NELLIE!
No ambiguity there.


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## RickR (Jun 28, 2014)

Nothing like first hand experience!


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## ship (Jul 9, 2014)

Still an interesting "thing" and thanks for the discussion. Wonder about ETC's feelings on such a seemingly modified fixture and their UL listing (or they probably should be Mumm about it for now legally).

In adding to the above, they mention beam spreads but don't specify which lenses the LED retrofit works best with. And I would think most auto shows given fixture heights would be 750w if used and wanting to pop so it's more of a stage/studio upgrade. Noting the different color temp's available from the listing not mentioned in discussion also in adding to dimmer curve.

Long post short... Frequently I see shows leaving without requesting spare lamps needed for the lighting gear. ALL LED shows don't bother me at all as the spare lamp buyer in having a huge backlog of lamps to inspect or log in/out on the computer. Artistically.... I think there is a way to go yet, but over the last 15 years in constantly seeing the newest and best - they are coming along.

If as also not mentioned you can first get a energy savings rebate from going HPL lamp over what you were, than get a second one by installing a LED retrofit to the fixtures you already invested in, that's not a bad thing for a venu for fixtures say that don't need to dim. I could think of some retail stores or amusement parks that use the S-4 PAR fixture that might be interested in such a thing as long as they can dial in the color temp.

Interesting in reading page two... sorry about being on the leading edge... where I work we live with that frequently in dingle turds wanted and popular than no longer once used, and glad to see that later part for me not going further into looking into it.


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## bstefanoff (Jan 6, 2017)

JCBigler said:


> Hello friends,
> 
> Though I am a brand new member to Control Booth, you can find a lengthy post history by me, under my real name at The Pro Sound Web: Live Audio Board, The Sound Forums Network, the Theatre Sound Listserv, and under my user name JCBigler at The Avid Pro Audio Community.
> 
> ...




My name is Buddy Stefanoff and I am the VP of Engineering for Crossroads LED.

Our company has recently become aware of Mr. Bigler’s slanderous statements regarding our company and its LED product line. 

While it is unclear why Mr. Bigler would risk exposing himself to a lawsuit, it is obvious he is unaware of the legal and civil ramifications of his statements and the penalties involved should we consider moving forward.

Regardless of his reasons, I can state that I am unaware of any fire started by our products at the Tulsa PAC, the Tulsa fire department has no record of responding to a fire started by our products, the Tulsa PAC has never contacted our office about a fire, and the Tulsa PAC has never made an insurance claim regarding damage caused by our LED products.

The only incident the fire department has on record for a fire at the Tulsa PAC is when an incandescent stage light was left face down on a pile of trash which resulted in not one, but two fires:

http://www.newson6.com/story/26290870/tulsa-performing-arts-center-evacuated-for-smoke

We consider this rebuttal sufficient and plan no further comment or action. However, we reserve the right to immediately seek all remedies available by law and in equity in the event the above mentioned behavior continues.


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## STEVETERRY (Jan 6, 2017)

jgels said:


> Hi all,
> So I found this
> LEDs Magazine - Crossroads LED develops replacement for ETC Source Four PAR lamp
> 
> ...



Please note the 2012 date on the release. AFAIK, this product never made it to market--vaporware.

ST


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## techieman33 (Jan 7, 2017)

bstefanoff said:


> My name is Buddy Stefanoff and I am the VP of Engineering for Crossroads LED.
> 
> Our company has recently become aware of Mr. Bigler’s slanderous statements regarding our company and its LED product line.
> 
> ...



Welcome to the site, personally I think your chose a pretty bad way to introduce yourself and further turn off any potential customers. No one likes to be threatened with lawsuits for giving a bad review of a product. And honestly unless you have something new your trying to sell 4+ year old technology which is ancient in a field that's developing as rapidly as this one.


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## Jay Ashworth (Jan 7, 2017)

And in fact, I believe that's just been made illegal, hasn't it?


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## EdSavoie (Jan 7, 2017)

Threatening a suit as your first post may not have been the *best* way for you to introduce yourself to a forum largely consisting of technicians, that aside, i'll personally give you the benefit of the doubt.

The post in question was in 2014, and a lot could have changed by then. For all we know, there was some sort of error in communication. 
The fire quoted by you Mr. Stefanoff took place a month after his post, and would be unrelated to what Mr. Biggler was talking about.


If you'd like to win us over, a good idea may be product demos, politely saying you have never heard any reports of your units catching fire, etc..
As you are the the VP of Engineering, I can understand why you'd take it personally when you see one of your fixtures being talked about negatively.

If I may, lots of these posts seem to hint towards a conclusion I found when looking up your company. Given that your indiegogo only received four backers, and the last news article I can find about your company talks about installing lights at the aforementioned Tulsa PAC in 2013, it seems the company at the very least has a weak point in marketing. I know many of the people who are visiting this forum (myself included) are looking for options when it comes to LED lighting.

Our opinions are not set in stone when it comes to manufacturers, several old ones of poor build quality have excelled in recent years, and once great ones have since fallen to the wayside of relative bloated junk. Please feel free to present your company's abilities and products in the present day if you'd like to counter the negativity presented against you in 2014.


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