# silhouette dancers



## len (Jan 3, 2012)

Looking to put some dancers behind a screen, a la Silhouette Dancing - YouTube 


I can't rig anything, so it's all ground support. Truss and maybe a pipe on the floor to create some tension if we use a spandex type fabric. What fabric would you use, and what light source? I tried an LED par and some drapery fabric I have in stock and it was completely inadequate. I'm thinking a focusable light is better?


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## rochem (Jan 3, 2012)

For light source, anything LED won't work at all. A good solution is to grab a large fresnel and remove the lens so it's just the lamp and the reflector. This creates very defined shadows behind whatever you're projecting, and I've used it in multiple shows to great effect.


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## derekleffew (Jan 3, 2012)

Agree with rochem on the light source--a lens-less Fresnel works great. Not sure why, but the lens gets in the way and lessens the effect. Otherwise, you might experiment with a 70° or 90° ERS, but I'd try a 2K FS first.

len, as to fabric, how big is the desired "screen"? I'd use an RP fast-fold screen--comes with frame, and legs for ground support, and even a trim kit if desired. Not that expensive to rent, and you have more than a few sources in the Chicagoland area.


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## len (Jan 3, 2012)

Dimensions are 40 +/- x 14. A video screen won't work, but not a bad idea otherwise. Plus, I need for people to be able to walk through it, so I have to create a path, meaning a front screen with an opening, then another screen behind it, since this can't be flown in or out. 

I'll probably need 4 fresnels to cover that width. Headed to the warehouse tonight and I'm going to try an ellipsoidal or a VNSP S4 par and see what those look like with the fabric I have.


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## ScottT (Jan 3, 2012)

Beam projector maybe?


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## 65535 (Jan 3, 2012)

ScottT said:


> Beam projector maybe?


 

Unfortunately as awesome as beam projectors are that would produce the complete opposite effect, you would have a spot about the size of the instrument on the screen that would be very bright indeed.

One thing to mention is you can not use more than one fixture to produce that effect. It relies on all the shadows having converging lines back to a point source of light (which is why fresnels with lenses don't tend to work). When you have multiple sources you get multiple shadows which would likely ruin the effect.

What you need is a large lamp and a large spherical mirror at a large distance behind the screen, ideally I would say 2-3x farther back than the screen is wide.

Grab at least a 2K fresnel and strip the lense. Or go to a movie studio rental supply and get a large fresnel and make sure they are ok with you running it with the door open or the lense removed.

As for the screen leaving it split at center and offset would probably also ruin the effect. As for a screen it'll be hard to come by pieces half that large seamless cheap.


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## Beans45601 (Jan 3, 2012)

You really want to have as few instruments as possible to achieve this effect. In a perfect world, you would be able to have a single light source lighting up the entire drop, for the most defined shadows. Multiple lights means that you are going to loose some of the effect where the beams overlap.


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## 65535 (Jan 3, 2012)

One other thing that just came to mind is that you really shouldn't have tungsten lamps operating exposed. Being in such close proximity to the performers and other wander folk you'll need some sort of window on the front of any fixture you do use that is rated for the temperature the fixture is.


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## MPowers (Jan 3, 2012)

What we are trying to re-create here is Linnebach Projector. This type of projector evolved from the early 19th century "Magic Lantern" and with the introduction of electricity and concentrated filaments, became a staple for very short throw rear projection. It could also be used for front projection if there was a moderate to large scenic piece or platform to conceal the projector. The slides were hand painted on glass or later acetate, and were rather large, a 2' x 3' slide was quite common. Some neat advantages to this type of projection is that it is always in focus and as long as the slide is parallel to the screen, there is no key-stoning. At a 10' throw distance, you could easily cover a 30' wide x 20' tall screen. Due to square law of light, the brightness dropped off rapidly to the sides which could be good or bad, depending on your desired effect. Drop off to the sides was reduced by increasing the throw distance, but then total intensity was less. Linnenbachs were used extensively in the early 20th century and were still quite common into the 1960's and 70's. I last used the effect in about 1978 by removing the lens and reflector from a 5K Mole Richardson Fresnel. Use faded with the development of Pani Projectors, a very high intensity, European projector that could be used for front and rear projection. And today the last remainders of this type of projection are shadow puppets and the type of effect the OP is trying to achieve, probably best exampled today by the dance troupe Pilobolus and also performed by one of the dance groups on America's Got Talent. 

A linnenbach is basically a box with one side open and as bright and small a point of light source as possible. 1500w was about the smallest lamp used for these and 5K was not uncommon. Unless you have a VERY good, accurate, spherical reflector and your lamp filament is VERY exactly at the center, you DO NOT want a reflector or you will get double images and/or blurry edges on your shadows. 

Depending on budget and how hard or soft you need your edges, a 300w or 500w hardware store work light, the rectangular type, 5" x 7" more or less, with a single T type lamp, might work just fine. Not sure whether having the lamp with the filament in the vertical or horizontal orientation would work better for you. If this would work it's cheap, quick, UL listed, what's more to like???


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## ScottT (Jan 3, 2012)

MPowers said:


> What we are trying to re-create here is Linnenbach Projector.


 
That's what I was thinking of! And it's Linnebach, not Linnenbach.


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## kicknargel (Jan 3, 2012)

As for material, it has been discussed here before, so do some searching. RP material would be best and most expensive (funny, that). Some types of plastic sheet would work, such as the plastic "shower curtain" type cycs some use when backlighting a cyc. Might be able to rent one. Muslin or other woven fabrics won't work well; too see-through. I have had success by sizing a muslin drop with watered-down Rosco flexbond. The glue fills the weave and makes a nice diffuser. Haven't tried it in quite this application. Not sure about spandex--might work.

If you could get away with some artistically designed framing as a visual element you could use my old favorite--Coroplast. It's 4x8 corrugated plastic sheets available from plastic suppliers (~$12). 4mil "natural" makes a very nice translucency.


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## ptero (Jan 4, 2012)

MPowers said:


> What we are trying to re-create here is Linnebach Projector.


 
"What we've got here, is a fail-yure to Linnebach!" They can be pretty great. I used one for images (painted on acetate as Michael suggests) on a 30'x60' cyc a few times in the 70's. I can't recall the wattage. 

Last season for '39 Steps' a scene was backlit on muslin. Actors, little puppet airplanes and people cutouts, and a ground row of mountains provided the shadow work. At a 9' throw we covered 24' width by about 12' high. The unit was about 4' off the floor on a rolling box for shifting and was a single source 2Kw lamp. This one was in an old Plano-Convex instrument minus the lens. Yep, I have a 2Kw Plano-Convex laying around. Plus a couple Olivettes, which would also work given serious wattage. Anyway, the common theme is Single Source and High Wattage. 

The work light idea might be pretty good. Keeps it safe and fairly easy. I'd look for a higher wattage though. I don't know what's out there. I have 500w worklights and fear one would not be enough oomph. fwiw, at Home Despot they are maybe $30.-35. They often come w/two lamps... one each 300w and 500w. 

Multiple sources COULD work if you embraced(learned to like or accept) how the images jump from source to source. Line up 2 or 3 lamps of any kind (floor lamps or table lamps minus the shades - or a few 6" fresnels, flooded) across a section of wall and note how the shadow of someone moving through there jumps as they travel. I could see working with that and getting mileage out of that effect, but it could be pretty disappointing to someone desiring clean single source style imaging.

Best of luck.


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## chausman (Jan 4, 2012)

ptero said:


> Multiple sources COULD work if you embraced(learned to like or accept) how the images jump from source to source. Line up 2 or 3 lamps of any kind (floor lamps or table lamps minus the shades - or a few 6" fresnels, flooded) across a section of wall and note how the shadow of someone moving through there jumps as they travel. I could see working with that and getting mileage out of that effect, but it could be pretty disappointing to someone desiring clean single source style imaging.
> 
> Best of luck.


 
It could also be an interesting design "choice" that you may like. 

Or maybe not...


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## kicknargel (Jan 4, 2012)

I'll point out that until know we've all been discussing "shadow play," essentially projecting shadows onto a translucent surface. This is probably what you're looking for. Of course, if you move away from the surface and toward the light source your shadow will get bigger fast. And depending on your angle to it, it will distort. If you're looking for regular life-sized dancer bodies, what you may want to do is light a cyc (preferably from behind) and put the dancers in front of it, with no light on them at all. A black scrim in front of the cyc will help keep light bleed off them.

Also, I just remembered that I've done some shadow play using a synthetic muslin backdrop, and it worked pretty well. You could see the source a bit, but not terribly.


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## sk8rsdad (Jan 4, 2012)

Does anybody know which fixtures Blue Man Group is using for their recent tour? Their opening number involves multiple light sources to cast shadows on an RP screen. Some of it is floor-mounted MLs that do a slow tilt/pan/zoom, but they also used a boxy beam projector of some sort, maybe 12"x12"x8" with a louver grill on front.


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## derekleffew (Jan 4, 2012)

sk8rsdad said:


> ... but they also used a boxy beam projector of some sort, maybe 12"x12"x8" with a louver grill on front.


Sounds like a 1kW xenon lamp Syncrolite.


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## sk8rsdad (Jan 4, 2012)

derekleffew said:


> Sounds like a 1kW xenon lamp Syncrolite.


Maybe, but none of the pictures on the syncrolite website resemble the units. They had a rectangular louver on the face, shaped kind of like a work floodlight. There was no moving yoke. It produced a warm sharp-edged rectangle.


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## len (Jan 6, 2012)

Since RP video screens won't work, we're going with a poly silk. Ordered it today. Based on different comments, I'll do some testing to see which light works best. I doubt I'll be able to find 2 Linnebach projectors (we have 2 areas to cover), so it's either S4 or work lights. Hopefully will post some test pix before the event.


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## Pie4Weebl (Jan 6, 2012)

len said:


> Since RP video screens won't work, we're going with a poly silk. Ordered it today. Based on different comments, I'll do some testing to see which light works best. I doubt I'll be able to find 2 Linnebach projectors (we have 2 areas to cover), so it's either S4 or work lights. Hopefully will post some test pix before the event.


 
How did you decide to rig the screen?


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## gafftapegreenia (Jan 6, 2012)

I did this effect a year ago on a smaller scale using a 200 watt A23 lamp stuck inside the housing of a gutted Altman 1KAF. I could not use the reflector because it caused a double image. 

If you are handy with sheet metal and a pop riveter I bet you could fashion yourself a linnebach projector. Basically you just need some sort of box to make sure that the light from a bare lamp only goes in one direction. Or just find an old Fresnel you have one of and use its body.


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## JohnHartman (Jan 6, 2012)

len said:


> Since RP video screens won't work, we're going with a poly silk. Ordered it today. Based on different comments, I'll do some testing to see which light works best. I doubt I'll be able to find 2 Linnebach projectors (we have 2 areas to cover), so it's either S4 or work lights. Hopefully will post some test pix before the event.


 
as an out of box idea from the other options discussed... How about a high lumen DLP projector with a short throw lens? more expensive, but it would be effective.


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## JChenault (Jan 6, 2012)

If you are going the 'Build a linnebach" route - consider a low voltage lamp. Low voltage lamps ( for the same wattage ) typically have a smaller fillament. My one experience with a true linneback ( about 40 years ago ) we had two units that would cross fade, and a low voltage lamp. I believe it was around 70 volts, and the filament for a 750 to 1000 watt lamp was about 1/4 inch tall by 1/8 inch wide. ( All of this is from very fuzzy memory when I was in college ). I only remember that the lamp was a med pre-focus T-12 of some sort. 

Anyone know what that lamp would have been?


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## derekleffew (Jan 6, 2012)

JChenault said:


> ...Anyone know what that lamp would have been?


I've never heard of a non-120V T-12 MPF lamp. Are you sure it had a medium prefocus base? The 2100T24/9 (60V) with mogul bipost (G38) base was very popular in Linnebach Projector s and some followspot s. The 50 hour life was a drawback, however.


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## shiben (Jan 8, 2012)

sk8rsdad said:


> Maybe, but none of the pictures on the syncrolite website resemble the units. They had a rectangular louver on the face, shaped kind of like a work floodlight. There was no moving yoke. It produced a warm sharp-edged rectangle.


 
Was it a Selecon with a douser? IIRC, they had some... Or it might have been a custom job. I remember the LD telling me they did some custom built lights on there.


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## len (Jan 15, 2012)

Thot you'd like to see the result. A few photos on my FB page. https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.359746527385039.102654.124379020921792&type=1 We ended up using a S4 with a 50 degree barrel. Still not enough distance but the client was happy.


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## JCarroll (Jan 15, 2012)

For future reference, the Silhouettes on Americas Got Talent went through a local church. They used a PRG Bad Boy, and had a second for a backup.


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## bmdsherman (Feb 27, 2012)

I did a show with Pilobolus and for this dance they used a powerful projector plugged into a Mac book. I don't remember what kind of projector it was but it was a PIA because it required two phase power and took 2 people to lift.

Edit: here is a picture of the projector they used.


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## len (Feb 27, 2012)

Pie4Weebl said:


> How did you decide to rig the screen?



Just saw this question. We had the drape sewn with a pipe pocket at the top. Just used standard pipe and drape hardware. Next time I think I will have a bottom pocket sewn in so that there's a little tension and it hangs a little straighter. One other thing I would try would be to aim a fan at it to get a flutter effect.


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## beells (Mar 12, 2012)

sk8rsdad said:


> Does anybody know which fixtures Blue Man Group is using for their recent tour? Their opening number involves multiple light sources to cast shadows on an RP screen. Some of it is floor-mounted MLs that do a slow tilt/pan/zoom, but they also used a boxy beam projector of some sort, maybe 12"x12"x8" with a louver grill on front.



sk8rsdad- I can't tell you everything about the piece but all the fixtures used in the opening "Screen Cyc" segment of the BMG nat tour are actually never seen on stage- they are long gone before anyone sees the open stage. There are a series of Diversitronics strobe caps inside ETC source four fixtures for the first half. There are a set of OceanOptics SeaChangers inside ETC source four fixtures for the send half. During the strobing section we also use hand-held S4 pars with dark blue gel to back light the Blue Men which may be what you thought was a moving light. The blue sweeps are done by hand and everything else is "conventional" either with a strobe cap or color changer. There is a little more to it, but it's the basics- Glad you enjoyed the effect- it's a killer product.


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## EWCguy (Apr 8, 2014)

I'm ready to experiment with my first shadow-play on the back of my standard muslin cyc. From reading another thread, it looks like a 1kw Fres w/out lens is going to be my best bet.

65535 said:


> [From that topic] Unfortunately as awesome as beam projectors are that would produce the complete opposite effect, you would have a spot about the size of the instrument on the screen that would be very bright indeed.



I am curious, since I have them, what a beam projector will do. I really haven't played with them too much and only recently found out that the nifty "O" ring/channel can be moved out of the way of the reflector.

I'll try S436 (largest angle I have), the 1kw Fres, and the BP. I'll report back how mine went.


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## MarshallPope (Apr 8, 2014)

The lamp cap from a Source4 also works well. I haven't bothered to read through the thread to see if that has been mentioned already.


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## JChenault (Apr 9, 2014)

EWCguy said:


> I'm ready to experiment with my first shadow-play on the back of my standard muslin cyc. From reading another thread, it looks like a 1kw Fres w/out lens is going to be my best bet.
> 
> 
> I am curious, since I have them, what a beam projector will do. I really haven't played with them too much and only recently found out that the nifty "O" ring/channel can be moved out of the way of the reflector.
> ...


Usually when you are doing this you want to light the entire drop more or less evenly. The S4 -36 would have to be WAY back to get coverage. The beam projector is designed to make a small spot that does not spread. Removing the spill rings will give you a bright spot in the center, and a dim wash everywhere else.

Now if you want to try multiple fixtures to give you overlapping shadows, the S4 might be interesting.


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## EWCguy (Apr 22, 2014)

Since this project ended up being in just a single, small area behind the cyc, the director was most happy with a single 36° SourceFour - from about 19' placed at 16" off the floor and aimed slightly upwards. The crisp circle was a "show" element and the beam had the best "look" as compared to a 6" fresnel and a 10" beam projector at the same distance. If the 6" fresnel had been promising, I would have then tried a 1k 8".

I can certainly understand how different this project would have been if I were trying to evenly backlight the entire width of my cyc! The BP, with spill-ring (thanks for the term!) gave us an oddly shaped field around a hot center. The fresnel (sans lens) gave us a fairly wide wash but I didn't like the way that it re-lit some of the shadow areas--making them less shadowy than others. I guess I should take a picture of what I mean here!  If time...


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