# Strange Staff issue at our HS Theater



## lightsandsoundSHS (Jan 17, 2012)

Hey CB community,
Sorry if this is in the wrong place, I hope its not (my first post here  )

Let me explain the issue we are having with staff and rules at our theater.

The staff here consist of:
The Manager
The assistant manager #1
The assistant manager #2
Technician #1
Technician #2

A quick profile of each....

The Manager, Required to be at all the shows/concerts produced by the auditorium, but not rehearsals. Has only some keys and permission to use the hydraulic lift in the theater.

The 1st Assistant Manager went to my HS, graduated in '09, and has all the keys to everything, and, although he doesn't have permission, uses the hydraulic lift. He does not work for the high school.

The 2nd Assistant Manager went to my HS as well, graduated in '11, and has keys to everything, and, although he doesn't have permission, uses the hydraulic lift. He also works for the School dept. servicing the projectors in the classrooms.

Technician 1 (me) - I do all the day-to-day operations, including setups and running shows. I currently am "borrowing" the manager's keys because he doesn't use them and said I could borrow until he needs them back.

Technician 2, sort of an assistant to me.

The problem arises here:
Because the assistant managers are off at college most of the time, our lights rarely get changed. The manager refuses to go up in the lift because he doesn't like it (perfectly reasonable). The assistant managers say that if we technicians use the lift we could get expelled from the school.

The lights need changing several times a month for our various events.

What I have worked out with the manager is that I can go up in the lift (and have many times) as long as I do everything safely. I mean *everything!* I use outriggers, don't get pushed when im up, all of that. I safety chain the lights safely as well. The school's administration doesn't allow this but there's no other way to change the lights. 

Now, don't get me wrong, I don't hate the assistant managers, they do do nice things for us, like order gaff tape. This year they constructed an office for the staff in an old closet that we didn't use to have access to. 

But, they can be real [insert vulgar word here]'s sometimes with their rules.

We have two stage monitors, and even though a client of the facility needed both, I was told to lie and say that we didn't have any, for the sole reason that the assistant manager didn't want them to be used.

My question to you is, what can I do about these self-appointed "assistant managers" and how can I change lights without getting in trouble by the school administration?

Please don't question why I disobey the administration, I have my reasons.
If you need more information, don't hesitate to ask!

Thanks,
lightsandsoundSHS


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## Edrick (Jan 17, 2012)

Are these kids who just graduated officially working for the school or past students who just keep coming back? What official capacity do they have?

Regardless of what the manager says if it's against school policy you should by no means using the lift. It's a huge liability. Sounds to me the school has no real set program in place for this and it's just student / past student run.


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## lightsandsoundSHS (Jan 17, 2012)

Edrick said:


> Are these kids who just graduated officially working for the school or past students who just keep coming back? What official capacity do they have?
> 
> Regardless of what the manager says if it's against school policy you should by no means using the lift. It's a huge liability. Sounds to me the school has no real set program in place for this and it's just student / past student run.


 
These are kids who graduated, one works for the school, but not as an auditorium person, one just keeps coming back. Officially, they have no authority, but socially, every administrator in the building knows and trusts them, and has no problem with them working in the theater. 

The thing is, the school doesn't _have_ a policy regarding the lift, and so I get different answers from different people in high-up positions. One asst. Principal says it's fine, the other says absolutely not.

Thanks


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## CrazyTechie (Jan 17, 2012)

Regardless of the reasons, you should never disobey the administration. They are the ones who decide who gets money and who let you do what you do. If they felt that you were not listening to them or that you couldn't care less about what they say or any rules that the put in place, they can and likely will shut you down.

The rules that they have in place, such as those surrounding the lift, they put in place to cover their butts and to keep yours safe. Yes it may suck not to be able to have the convenience of using a lift, but the simple fact is that the administration at your school doesn't allow it (at least this is what I have been able to determine from your post). There are alternatives to using a lift as long as your hanging positions are not dead hung, and even then there are still alternatives to breaking the rules, and in the eyes of the administration, potentially endangering yourself and others.

While you say that you do everything safely in the lift, accidents can, will, and do happen. This thread comes to mind http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/news/22087-college-student-dies-scissor-lift-accident.html

What I would recommend you do would be to stop using the lift yourself immediately. Sit down with the manager and come up with a basic-plot that will cover most of what you need lighting wise for all the various shows that you do, then have the manager hang it in the lift if that is the only way or get someone else who is qualified and sanctioned by the administration to use the lift (the school janitors come to mind as a potential option).

Please don't take this as me being mean or hard on you, I'm saying these things in the hopes of keeping you and the others around you safe as well as keeping the administration at your school happy towards your program.


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## lightsandsoundSHS (Jan 17, 2012)

CrazyTechie said:


> Regardless of the reasons, you should never disobey the administration. They are the ones who decide who gets money and who let you do what you do. If they felt that you were not listening to them or that you couldn't care less about what they say or any rules that the put in place, they can and likely will shut you down.
> 
> The rules that they have in place, such as those surrounding the lift, they put in place to cover their butts and to keep yours safe. Yes it may suck not to be able to have the convenience of using a lift, but the simple fact is that the administration at your school doesn't allow it (at least this is what I have been able to determine from your post). There are alternatives to using a lift as long as your hanging positions are not dead hung, and even then there are still alternatives to breaking the rules, and in the eyes of the administration, potentially endangering yourself and others.
> 
> ...


 
Thanks for the reply. I'll see what I can do. I may look into getting certified in using it, then I would technically be more qualified than anybody in the school department (yes, I know nobody else is qualified ...

Unfortunately everything in our theater is dead-hung... Is there any way to make adjustments to lights without using a lift? For small stuff I have a long piece of electrical conduit with a hook on the end.

Thanks,


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## chausman (Jan 17, 2012)

lightsandsoundSHS said:


> Unfortunately everything in our theater is dead-hung... Is there any way to make adjustments to lights without using a lift? For small stuff I have a long piece of electrical conduit with a hook on the end.


 
Ladder? Some people seem to like ladder more then lifts.


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## lightsandsoundSHS (Jan 17, 2012)

chausman said:


> Ladder? Some people seem to like ladder more then lifts.


 
Wouldn't that be the same "policy" as using a lift?


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## CrazyTechie (Jan 17, 2012)

lightsandsoundSHS said:


> Wouldn't that be the same "policy" as using a lift?


 
It may be different depending on what your administration deems safe vs unsafe for students, it would be something worth looking into though.


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## lightsandsoundSHS (Jan 17, 2012)

CrazyTechie said:


> It may be different depending on what your administration deems safe vs unsafe for students, it would be something worth looking into though.


 
That seems funny that a ladder would be considered safer at 20' than a lift at 20'.... At least in the lift you are standing on a flat surface with rails all around you... I'll do some asking though.


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## chausman (Jan 17, 2012)

lightsandsoundSHS said:


> Wouldn't that be the same "policy" as using a lift?


 
In a lot of places, no. Surprisingly. I can use the theaters 20' ladder just fine, but I can't use the Genie. Ask first though. 

I think you should probably talk to your favorite administrator about how you have "managers" who are never in the building, and are causing the theater more harm then good.


lightsandsoundSHS said:


> That seems funny that a ladder would be considered safer at 20' than a lift at 20'.... At least in the lift you are standing on a flat surface with rails all around you... I'll do some asking though.


 
Yep, it's odd but true.


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## lightsandsoundSHS (Jan 17, 2012)

chausman said:


> In a lot of places, no. Surprisingly. I can use the theaters 20' ladder just fine, but I can't use the Genie. Ask first though.
> 
> I think you should probably talk to your favorite administrator about how you have "managers" who are never in the building, and are causing the theater more harm then good.
> 
> ...


 
Okay thanks, I'll look into it... I personally have used both, and am more comfortable in the lift (ours is old, but is sturdier than some of the newer genies i've used)...


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## derekleffew (Jan 17, 2012)

lightsandsoundSHS said:


> Hey CB community,
> Sorry if this is in the wrong place, I hope its not (my first post here  )


Well, this thread could be equally at home in Facility Management or Education or even the Safety forum, but here is fine too.


lightsandsoundSHS said:


> ...The 1st Assistant Manager went to my HS, graduated in '09, and has all the keys to everything, and, although he doesn't have permission, uses the hydraulic lift. He does not work for the high school. ...


IMO, This individual should have his keys removed from his person immediately, forcibly if necessary. No non-employee (including students, including you) has any right, reason, or business having keys to a public building. The keys do have "Do Not Duplicate" stamped on them, yes? Furthermore, alums don't have a magic right to hang around or just show up once they've graduated. It's kreepy, and possibility a liability concern. Here the school district has a loose "coach" designation, whereby applicants are vetted via a minimal background check, and are paid a nominal fee, and issued a school ID.

It sounds as though there's some (or much) http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/education-career-development/9503-king-queen-booth-complex.html going on, as well as "Self Important Key Jingler" complex, by you as well as others.

As to the use of the personnel lift, by students as well as non-employees, you (preferably with the aid of your parents/guardian) may have to continue to take the issue up the chain to the Superintendent of Schools, until you get an answer by someone who's willing to put it in writing. Once someone writes "No," (which likely won't be that high up) that's it--you're done. You can ask/suggest/request alternatives, but YOU may longer use the lift, ever. Even if you do get persmission, it should only be used under the supervision of a faculty or staff member, and by that I mean IN THE SAME ROOM, not somewhere in another part of the building or across campus.

Have your school librarian look into obtaining a copy of the book _PRACTICAL HEALTH AND SAFETY GUIDELINES FOR SCHOOL THEATER OPERATIONS_ by Dr. R.W. Davidson. It will open everyone's eyes.


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## venuetech (Jan 17, 2012)

I would be curious about just who authorized AM1 and AM2 to have keys. school districts generally just don't pass out keys without some solid reason. Being an employee would usually qualify. your Principal would of had to sign off on any key issues. It often is an insurance issue that keep a student off of ladders and lifts. but your best bet may be the renter. They need to discuss the issue with the school district. They need lights focused and that requires some authorized person on the lift. Often the school rents out various rooms bur the powers in charge do not realize that a theatre is unlike any other space that they deal with.


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## josh88 (Jan 17, 2012)

Agree with what derek said, if someone has graduated and is not employed by the school they shouldn't have access/ keys. The liability there is huge. We're he to go in during off hours and die, kill him/herself, or do any number of other things it would be a legal ****storm. Not to mention the potential weirdness of someone hanging around. Doesn't matter if they are the prodigal child of the school and loved by all. The keys need to get turned over and probably shouldn't have been given in the first place

Edit: posted at the same time as venuetech
Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk


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## lightsandsoundSHS (Jan 17, 2012)

derekleffew said:


> Well, this thread could be equally at home in Facility Management or Education, but I'm just as happy leaving it here.
> 
> 
> IMO, This individual should have his keys removed from his person immediately, forcibly if necessary. No non-employee (including students, including you) has any right, reason, or business having keys to a public building. The keys do have "Do Not Duplicate" stamped on them, yes? Furthermore, alums don't have a magic right to hang around or just show up once they've graduated. It's kreepy, and possibility a liability concern. Here the school district has a loose "coach" designation, whereby applicants are vetted via a minimal background check, and are paid a nominal fee, and issued a school ID.
> ...


 
Thanks so much for the info.,
I'll look into the "alumni coming back" issue, because the staff/administrators all absolutely love these grads, and allow them to come back.... The administration actually issued these keys to the one "asst. Manager" that works at the school, but somehow they issued him 2 sets, so he gave one to the other asst. Manager that doesn't work at the school. It's a bit of a mess.

I try not to be self-important, but, well, you know how it goes, if I didn't laugh, I might cry 

I'll work on an email to the administration about lift stuff, as well as alternatives, like ladders, etc...
Thanks


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## lightsandsoundSHS (Jan 17, 2012)

josh88 said:


> Agree with what derek said, if someone has graduated and is not employed by the school they shouldn't have access/ keys. The liability there is huge. We're he to go in during off hours and die, kill him/herself, or do any number of other things it would be a legal ****storm. Not to mention the potential weirdness of someone hanging around. Doesn't matter if they are the prodigal child of the school and loved by all. The keys need to get turned over and probably shouldn't have been given in the first place
> 
> Edit: posted at the same time as venuetech
> Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk


 
Now the trick is convincing them to make the AMs hand over the auditorium keys....


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## josh88 (Jan 17, 2012)

On some of these issues it's going to be better and carry more weight if your parents bring it to the administration. You can tell a faculty member you trust but your parents have a legitimate reason to be concerned for students safety


lightsandsoundSHS said:


> Now the trick is convincing them to make the AMs hand over the auditorium keys....



no trick involved, the non employee as derek said could need them forcibly removed and the school would have legal recourse to come after them I should think since he isn't authorized to have the keys to a public building.

Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk


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## lightsandsoundSHS (Jan 17, 2012)

josh88 said:


> no trick involved, the non employee as derek said could need them forcibly removed and the school would have legal recourse to come after them I should think since he isn't authorized to have the keys to a public building.


I meant convincing the administration to actually go through with taking keys away... Another thing to work on after this week (I'm too busy this week for much theater work, Midterms...)


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## MNicolai (Jan 17, 2012)

Re: Lifts, it's probably not up for discussion, but you may need to clarify exactly what the policy is.

In the school district I work for, it is that two requirements must be fulfilled before anyone may use the lift:

1) They must be 18+ years of age.
2) They must have been trained by a competent person.

That policy is _supported_ by the school, but _instituted_ by our insurance company. Put simply, if a kid falls off a ladder, insurance takes care of it. If a kid falls out of a lift, they don't.

By competent person, it means preferably that everyone gets trained through a contractor the school district brings in every 6-9 months for lift training for custodians that the students of age also participate in. Legally, it means anyone who knows how to safely operate the lift can teach anyone else. If a student wants to focus lights but can't get trained for another 6 months, I can train that person on the spot. That doesn't mean I should then walk away and leave them unsupervised their first time up, but I don't have to wait until the next training session for them to get an actual operator's certificate.

The only way the policy changes is if someone wants to strike up make and argument or perform negotiations with the insurance company. Nobody with the authority to do that really wants to, so the policy will remain unchanged.

Generally speaking, it's a non-issue because there are enough adults and 18 year-old students trained to use the lift and attached to the facility that finding someone to focus lights has not been a problem.

Just remember: you may be discussing policy with a principal or a building & grounds supervisor, but if the situation is like ours where the insurance policy specifically excludes underage students using a lift, then your point may be moot. Don't get on someone's bad side trying to blame them for something that is beyond their control.


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## lightsandsoundSHS (Jan 17, 2012)

MNicolai said:


> Re: Lifts, it's probably not up for discussion, but you may need to clarify exactly what the policy is.
> 
> In the school district I work for, it is that two requirements must be fulfilled before anyone may use the lift:
> 
> ...


 
That's a good policy I think. Who knows what our policy is? Nobody seems to have the answer. I'll dig deep...


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## museav (Jan 18, 2012)

venuetech said:


> It often is an insurance issue that keep a student off of ladders and lifts.


+1 and then some. Insurers will often be very particular about what anyone under 18 and anyone not an employee can do and ignoring such restrictions could put the school at significant risk. It sounds like your Assistant Managers may still have some learning and maturing to do related to such aspects.


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## Les (Jan 18, 2012)

It sounds like your school has three too many managers. Too many chiefs, not enough Indians. 

Were I the school administration, both the alums would have to go. They're not school employees, thus have no business being there. They're a liability since they're not likely covered by any insurance policy, and in some areas, it is illegal to be on a school campus unless you are a student, employee, or have some other official business being there. The administrators may overlook it, but there is probably a policy in place forbidding it. It may seem like the alums are a Godsend helping out the tech program, but in reality, they are holding it back more than anything. They will have to leave sometime, and until they do, the current students can't mature and take ownership the way that they need to. Schools need that fresh start, even if it is rough for a year or two after one of the "head tech's" leaves. The best way to avoid this is to begin training students very early on so they will be ready for more responsibility as an upperclassman. They graduate, and the sophomores and juniors take their place. Rinse and repeat. Alums really shouldn't be allowed back except on an extremely irregular basis; perhaps to student teach a tech class or give a presentation on college tech and what to expect. 

Asst. Mgr #1 is risking a lot if he really did give a set of keys to Asst. Mgr #2. Now, they are both in the wrong, and possibly breaking the law. If one of them so much as loses a set of keys along the way, even that can open up a huge can of worms. I guess that same type of liability comes back on you too, so please be careful. Any under no circumstances should you ever take the keys home with you. That is possession of school-owned property and I don't think you'd want to get caught with that on your shoulders. Especially if the place gets broken in to one night, or something goes missing.


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## teqniqal (Jan 20, 2012)

Wow, this school really does appear to have some management issues. I'll second the earlier post about obtaining a copy of Dr. Dooms book. He has a new trio that was just published, too (albeit, information about actually getting a copy has not yet been published yet, but Randy says he's working on that. _Not bad for an 82 year old dude!_). (http://www.globalhealthandsafety.ne...avidsons_Eye_On_Theatre_Health_And_Safety.pdf)


The discussion about using a ladder unstead of a lift gets a bit sticky if you dig into it. The OSHA (Portable Ladder Safety) and NIOSH (CDC - NIOSH Publications and Products - Safety Checklist Program for Schools - Portable Ladders for Construction: Self-Inspection Checklist (2004-101)) ladder safety guidelines generally say that you should always have one hand and one foot on the ladder at all times, and that the center of your torso should always be between the verticals. This generally makes a ladder useless in the theatre except for painting or changing a screw-in lamp. Show them that information and maybe they will understand why it is important to establish policies and procedures to facilitate having students on lifts. If done properly, it can be much safer than portable ladders. Fixed ladders (the kind bolted to a wall) are still a pretty functional way to get from the Locking Gallery up to the Loading Gallery (assuming you have them).


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## lightsandsoundSHS (Jan 21, 2012)

Thanks for everyone's help. I'll get back to you if anything comes up!


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## Ealdnoth (Mar 25, 2012)

As to the issue of the keys, any non-employee should not have keys to all parts of a facility for any reason. Lighthouse Repertory Theater (our local all volunteer theater group) uses the local middle school theater (the only one in town...) for our productions. We receive keys to areas we need access to, and have permission to access only those areas. I personally do contract work for the district and have a set of masters, but I will not let anyone into areas they are not authorized to enter. This makes me an "unofficial" key holder in our group, but as I am aware of the limitations placed on our group, the district feels it is appropriate. Note that my keys were issued to me by the district, not the school in question, and the principal of that school has no control over who get keys and who does not. Also, if for some reason I need to be onsite for contract work, I do not allow access to members of our theater group unless it has been prearranged with the district and they are there in their allotted time frame. Even the president of the board of directors! Anyhoo, 1st Assistant may have some strange, archaic arrangement with the administration that allows him access, but if he's using equipment he shouldn't bem then some one higher up needs to be told.


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