# Scene Shop use by external personnel



## BNEL (Jul 17, 2012)

Hello All

I am in the process of researching the possibility of offering the use of our equipment (saws and drills) in our scene shop to external personnel that rent our facilities.

History: I manage two theaters with scene shops attached that are part of two high schools. I have been approached by the community theater that operates out of my theaters to use our equipment. In the past we have locked out our equipment so that they cannot use it do to liability concerns. We are also looking at this as revenue generation as we would charge them for the access to our equipment. I have been working with our district safety officer and prompted me with several questions before we approach our insurance company.

1. Are there any other High Schools out there that allow the use of your equipment to groups (like a community theater) that are not affiliated with the school district?
2. How do we control who from the user group uses it? My answer: would be laying out stipulations and trust the organization along with checking in every now and then.
3. How do we know that person has the knowledge and skill to use the equipment safely? My answer: same as Number 2
4. Who will be responsible for inspecting the equipment before and after use to ensure that it is functioning correctly? My answer: I would assume me as I am already responsible for the equipment.
5. Who will be responsible for repairing and maintaining the equipment? My answer: same as 4.
6. Who is responsible for the equipment being properly guarded? MY answers: would be safety officer as he already checks everything else in the district.

I would appreciate any input from anyone that may have experienced this situation.

-Barry


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## Van (Jul 17, 2012)

This is a GREAT discussion question and one that I know I have struggled with for a very long time. I'm a little slammed at work right now but I will come back this evening to throw in my two cents. I look forward to seeing some of the other responses as well.


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## josh88 (Jul 17, 2012)

I had an outside designer use my shop space as well as one of my saws. It wasn't my choice at all and they didn't charge anything for it since it was for the children's theatre we own. It was my responsibility to check everything after she came through. 

Since then I've taken over everything so it's not an issue anymore and of a group wanted use of the shop for something we'd stipulate that it has to be me they hire to do the work. Mostly so that they have someone know is capable running it all. So even if they have capable workers the school wants me there as that barrier


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## Footer (Jul 17, 2012)

This is a weird situation... and one my organization is currently going through. We are renting out shop space out to a local regional theatre. We have basic fixed tools in there that we own. The way we approach the rental, and our insurance provider agrees, is just like a tenant/landord relationship in an apartment. When they move in, I will ensure every piece of gear is in perfect shape. We'll walk through and anything that they point out that I did not see will be fixed. After that, its up to them to maintain it. I'll do go into the shop occasionally to check up on things, but it is now their tools they are renting from me. Its just like in your apartment, you can't sue your landlord if you decide to rip apart a perfectly good stove and shock/burn yourself. Now, if the stove fell apart and you called the landlord and they did nothing... thats another issue. 

So, I would try to be more hands off then hands on. If they decide you are responsible for anything that goes wrong while they are there, don't get involved. You can't be their babysitters.


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## museav (Jul 18, 2012)

To perhaps get some more background...

I assume this is a public school since you mentioned a district safety officer, but is that a valid assumption? If public, are there other schools in your district with similar facilities or situations?

What is the relationship with the community theater group? Are they a resident group or a regular renter/user? Would scheduling and access, and especially conflicts betrween their and the school's use, be a potential issue? Would you be setting a precedent and possibly have other users that may then expect similar considerations?

Has the community theater group actually agreed to pay for the use or is that an assumption? Will they be willing to pay enough to actually make it profitable, or at least not a loss, once all the costs involved are considered?

I think Josh and Kyle hit on what may be the two options, you either tightly control it or you minimize your responsibility and liability, it is your control and risk or theirs. Trying to go somewhere between those opposite approaches with shared responsibility and risk is what often leads to problems. But that is probably something the district officials and their insurer need to decide.


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## DaveySimps (Jul 18, 2012)

I would add that you might want to consider a training session or orientation for the community theatre group. Step them through the safety procedures you require, what your emergency procedures are, proper usage and adjustment of your particular tools, etc. The users of power tools, perhaps, would need to pass a safety test before they were allowed to use them? That way you are displaying some form of due diligence. Akin to a student in a Stagecraft course having to pass such a test before working in the shop. I know that, outside of an educational setting, in my state no one under the age of 18 can use a power tool or work on a construction site where one is being used. You might want to see if you have a similar law, and how that might apply to your legal arrangement. I am very active with Habitat for Humanity, and we cannot have volunteers under the age of 18 on home sites for this very reason.

Although we have never had a group rent our shop specifically, we require all users to hold an insurance policy that lists us as "additionally insured", and holds us harmless. It is not full proof, but it is helpful should we need to fix major damage, or fight things out in court. I would highly recommend this.

My thoughts are that you and / or your organization would be responsible for the initial and final safety inspection of the tools and all maintenance. It is, after all, still your space and gear. The rental groups should have one or two individuals listed as supervisors responsible for the terms of use in your rental agreement. If they are not there to supervise, no work should be performed. This would help to create accountability and enforcement. They would be held responsible for deeming who in their organization can use the tools, and checking that they are doing so safely. These individuals should have your contact info, or your safety officer's should develop while you are not there.

Above all, I would say be very specific as to what you are requiring, and put it in writing.

That is my $0.02.

~Dave


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## marmer (Jul 18, 2012)

Why would you even consider this? Even ignoring the liability question completely, can you reasonably expect to make enough money for your program to make it worth your extra time and aggravation? It sounds like it would be an additional time commitment on your part about equivalent to another outside event every time someone wants to use the shop. Then a lot of the concerns raised in the "workload in a school setting" thread would seem to surface.


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## JLNorthGA (Jul 18, 2012)

We are a non-profit community theatre. We have our own building and equipment. We rent our facility.

Due to liability issues, we prefer that people do NOT use our equipment. People get injured using power equipment. We would prefer not getting sued.

We do not let outsiders use our sound equipment or lighting equipment. One of our tech people has to be there to run the equipment. How is this different with saws and such? 

Yes - you can say that saws aren't costly - but have you ever seen the results of table saw or band saw amputation? One trip to the ER can really screw up your budget (or get your insurance company mad at you).

I make sure that the equipment is properly maintained. I also supervise our volunteers. I would rather not baby sit rentals.


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## DrPinto (Jul 18, 2012)

I always treat my tools like my underwear...I would never let anyone borrow them! 

I personally wouldn't let outsiders use my tools. I love community theater, but you never know who you'll get for personnel. If the group is trustworthy for one show, you may have a different crew for the next show, depending on turnover. What happens if something is broken and they say it was like that before they used it? What if you miss something during an inspection and someone gets hurt on something that shouldn't have been used? And if something goes missing, then what?

There's nothing wrong with renting out the space, but let them use their own tools. Most volunteers I know who do set construction already own their own tools anyway.


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## josh88 (Jul 19, 2012)

marmer said:


> Why would you even consider this? Even ignoring the liability question completely, can you reasonably expect to make enough money for your program to make it worth your extra time and aggravation? It sounds like it would be an additional time commitment on your part about equivalent to another outside event every time someone wants to use the shop. Then a lot of the concerns raised in the "workload in a school setting" thread would seem to surface.



I think the reasoning is that yes you could make enough money to make it worth while. Even if you aren't making much money off of renting the shop, the bigger money grab might be the rental that then follows. If the options are "we use your shop for a fee AND we rent your space afterwards" versus "We use your shop for a fee and if you say no we'll go somewhere else and you'll lose the entire rental" THEN it starts to look good to someone on the finance side. If you're making bank on rentals and you could lose that money I can see some places bending over backwards to make the shop usage work. Especially if they can pawn it off on the shop manager and tell them to deal with the after effects because it removes the person who set the contract up and it keeps their hands clean of hassle. I can see where that would sound great to a person in an admin office who doesn't think about what all goes into it and is told to just keep renting things and making money.


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## marmer (Jul 20, 2012)

josh88, everything you say makes sense, but I wonder how many venues with attached shops have enough free time in their own seasons to allow the kind of rentals that would need to build scenery. Almost all of our rentals are one-off concerts, lectures, meetings, recording sessions, etc. No way could we give up enough time for a show to be rehearsed and run. Not even close. And if you do have an extended period of dark, that's for 1.) maintenance or 2.) vacation. We have to train the bean counters that just because the calendar has 365 days, you don't need to have 365 events!


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## josh88 (Jul 20, 2012)

Maybe more than you might think. I had 5 rentals come through my space this year and they could have all had at least a week of build time if they had needed it. So that's at least 5 chances for my shop, with a large competent crew working, that number might even be able to double. I think added up over the coarse of a year I've got 2 or 3 months of dark days, not always in large chunks. Most of the rentals I get come through during school vacations, summer, christmas, etc. And they went off without much hassle. I was there for them so I could have been if they needed to build, even if I didn't we have full time staff that stay during vacations so it would still be doable. When I don't have a class in the shop I can think of a couple times during the year that it would work for us as well. The way my rentals have worked, they rehearse off site and then come in for the week they rent. they could build, load out the set to their rehearsal space, and load it back in the week of. 

The children's theatre managed to rehearse on stage with a set for only a week before opening and those were kids. It was rough but they've done it. I just did a touring set with some of the same group and they've rehearsed this week with it in a classroom, loaded it onto the stage today, rehearse 2 days, 1 performance on stage and then they go out on tour. So it's doable.

My current issue is explaining to the bean counters that just because a day is dark on the calendar doesn't mean the stage is clear. They don't understand that there is a set on stage for weeks leading up to a performance.


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## museav (Jul 21, 2012)

There are so many factors. For example, if it is a public school and you make the shop available to one renter then might you have to make it available to all renters or any qualified parties who ask or else risk someone claiming being denied an equal opportunity or equal access?

How do you handle materials storage and usage? Do you, or can you, provide them separate, secure materials storage and keep yours secured separately? Or do you let them use your materials and somehow charge for that or include it as part of the rental? And think not just large construction materials but also nails, screws and so on.

What about access? How do they get access to the shop and does it mean accessing other areas of the building? Can they access it at any time or only during certain hours? Would it mean letting people who are not students, parents or faculty in the building during class time when the students are present?

How do you deal with scheduling? What happens if someone rents the theater and then a conflict arises between when they want the shop area and when it is needed for school activities?

Should generating profit be a priority and especially if it may be at the expense of, rather than in support of, the school's primary purpose? If you focus on generating profit then does the operation potentially beome more that of a commercial business?

These can probably all be worked out but it may be a matter of what is viable or practical for the school, what that actually costs and whether a renter is going to be amenable to those terms and conditions.


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## josh88 (Jul 21, 2012)

I will add the the person we allowed to use the shop had to have a background check done because she was there while students were there.


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## 2mojo2 (Jul 22, 2012)

Run away! Run away!
If you provide training, you multiply the School Board's liability, not control it.
When I shut down the school shop for the off-season, I remove blades and lock them up.
I never allow anyone outside of my authority and supervision to operate the Drama Club's equipment.


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## DaveySimps (Jul 23, 2012)

2mojo2 said:


> If you provide training, you multiply the School Board's liability, not control it.



This is not true. I have spoken with insurance agencies for both Universities and public schools about this, as well as the lawyers for both entities. In both cases they indicated that providing training mitigates some liability. Letting them use the equipment with out vetting or due diligence puts you at a far greater risk. It was the insurance companies that recommended the training, in fact. 

For documentation, look into applications of the Coverdell Teacher Protection Act as it applies and extends immunity to school employees, and research of national immunity case law: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...mYDoAw&usg=AFQjCNFJjPJsdjduCHkyhFO-QGVocRdj7g

I am not saying I would recommend doing so. I am just saying it is not all gloom and doom if they do peruse it. 

~Dave


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## museav (Jul 23, 2012)

DaveySimps said:


> This is not true. I have spoken with insurance agencies for both Universities and public schools about this, as well as the lawyers for both entities. In both cases they indicated that providing training mitigates some liability. Letting them use the equipment with out vetting or due diligence puts you at a far greater risk. It was the insurance companies that recommended the training, in fact.
> 
> For documentation, look into applications of the Coverdell Teacher Protection Act as it applies and extends immunity to school employees, and research of national immunity case law: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...mYDoAw&usg=AFQjCNFJjPJsdjduCHkyhFO-QGVocRdj7g


I can see that in relation to students and school events but would the use and training being related to a third-party rather than students, being related to non-school events and being related to financial remuneration perhaps affect that? Might it be better to create a 'shop safety' course in a purely educational context and then require any facility renters who want to use the shop facilities to have completed such a course? That would seem to then associate some required training to the use but also spearating the educational and rental aspects.


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## DaveySimps (Jul 23, 2012)

It is the same for students and renters in the vast majority of situations. A school employee all of a sudden does not stop being a school employee when they are dealing with rental groups, so the immunity or liability translates the same. As long as it is an approved use of the facility. i.e., someone has given permission to use the space. Due to the public nature of educational facilities, their coverage is very broad. Another example used when I was speaking with the insurance representatives and lawyers is when a school rents out its pool. The insurance still covers all swimmers and spectators, even if the life guards are employed by a city rec department or private company and NOT the school district (a typical arrangement). 

~Dave


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## museav (Jul 24, 2012)

DaveySimps said:


> It is the same for students and renters in the vast majority of situations. A school employee all of a sudden does not stop being a school employee when they are dealing with rental groups, so the immunity or liability translates the same. As long as it is an approved use of the facility. i.e., someone has given permission to use the space. Due to the public nature of educational facilities, their coverage is very broad. Another example used when I was speaking with the insurance representatives and lawyers is when a school rents out its pool. The insurance still covers all swimmers and spectators, even if the life guards are employed by a city rec department or private company and NOT the school district (a typical arrangement).


Ironically, the public entities, including school districts and boards, that often exempt themselves from liability are also typically some of the most demanding regarding professionals working for them incurring responsibility for of their errors or omissions such as providing Professional Liability coverage well in excess of the related fees and listing the Client as an insured on any liability policies.


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## DaveySimps (Jul 24, 2012)

I agree with that 100%. Every educational system I have ever dealt with has required insurance proofs from renters and vendors in an excess of $1M, with the school entity listed as additional insured on the policy. 

~Dave


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