# I have no words.....



## Robert (Jan 30, 2019)

If you have to do it wrong, here is a good example.


----------



## Amiers (Jan 30, 2019)

Lol. Good lord. 

I hope people don’t actually use that for feeder.


----------



## SteveB (Jan 30, 2019)

I wonder where they got an orange Cam-Lok ?


----------



## Amiers (Jan 30, 2019)

SteveB said:


> I wonder where they got an orange Cam-Lok ?


First picture is n google.


----------



## Robert (Jan 30, 2019)

SteveB said:


> I wonder where they got an orange Cam-Lok ?


480 volt, I believe.


----------



## soundman (Jan 30, 2019)

SteveB said:


> I wonder where they got an orange Cam-Lok ?



Off a 480 volt cam set would be my guess.... Maybe that is why where are using such thin wires...


----------



## SteveB (Jan 30, 2019)

Had I bothered to look. I guess I was somewhat stating I’d never seen one in use. How many times is anybody in US theater going to hookup something that isn’t R/Blue/B/W/G ? I assume EU usage.


----------



## SteveB (Jan 30, 2019)

soundman said:


> Off a 480 volt cam set would be my guess.... Maybe that is why where are using such thin wires...



Ah !. I stay away at that point.


----------



## MNicolai (Jan 30, 2019)

The real question is what does the other end of the cable look like and what is it tied into...


----------



## Ben Stiegler (Jan 30, 2019)

Wait ... doesn't the paired complementary colors on each Camlock metaphorically suggest alternating current? or the wave/particle duality?


----------



## RonHebbard (Jan 30, 2019)

SteveB said:


> *I wonder where they got an orange Cam-Lok ?*


 * @SteveB* You're in the U.S. and I'm posting from Canada.
That said: I believe we both agree on colors for single phase 120 / 240 plus neutral and ground. (4 conductors)
We both agree on colors for three phase 120 / 208 plus neutral and ground. (5 conductors)
In between we have a Canadian standard for three phase 5 conductors at an intermediate voltage which I can't remember but I believe our Canadian colors for the voltage are Yellow, Orange and Brown for the three phases plus neutral and ground.
I suspect if you dig into your U.S. standards you'll find you may have the same colors in common use but likely in industrial applications and essentially never in theatre. It *MAY * be 277 / 480 but don't quote me, that's just a WAG (Wild Anal Guess) on my part. I do know for a FACT, during my installation and maintenance IBEW apprenticeship, the nation-wide electrical contractor I was indentured to was contracted to build a new secondary school and due to cable shortages Canada-wide we pulled the entire school using Orange, Yellow and Brown imported from your side of Donald's walls. Every electrical worker on site found the coloring totally bizarre but our inspectors allowed it since the colors followed an established standard but just not for 120 / 208. From memory, we pulled 400, 200 and 100 amp panel feeders along with all load circuits down to 12 gauge and all the gauges shipped up from the U.S. in the the Yellow, Orange and Brown color scheme. Every distribution panel bore an attention getting engraved and filled lamicoid notice making it VERY CLEAR it was a 3 phase 120 / 208 OR 347 / 600 volt panel for the benefit of future contractors.
There's another minor point: Up here north of the walls 347 / 600 is a very common distribution voltage in commercial and industrial applications whereas I don't believe 347 / 600 is common on your side of the walls.
*Bottom Line:* I suspect you'll discover Orange cams are available, along with yellow and brown, but virtually never seen in theatres. Possibly *@STEVETERRY* could speak to this? 
EDIT: With apologies for taking too long to type this, clearly Steve's mystery was solved while I was typing.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard


----------



## derekleffew (Jan 30, 2019)

Robert said:


> If you have to do it wrong, here is a good example.


More egregious than the cam colors (at least they match the wires)* is that they're using multi-conductor cable with single-conductor connectors.


MNicolai said:


> The real question is what does the other end of the cable look like and what is it tied into...


Since the connectors pictured are *output*, a good guess would be the other end is tied directly into a panel. With proper lugs and strain-relief of course.

*The long-standing rule is that face tape / phase tape ALWAYS supersedes any other markings or designations. How long? About two minutes since I made it up. Have yet to see Production Arts feeder with Violet Scotch 33+ tape on it. Lots of DesignLab orange and ChicagoSpotlight yellow however.


----------



## Butch! (Jan 30, 2019)

In the US orange denotes the high leg in a delta 208 system where two legs are 120 volts to Neutral and the 'high' (orange) leg is 240 volts to neutral. You still get 208 between every leg, it's just the high leg to neutral that's different. It's normally the B leg, but not always.


----------



## epimetheus (Jan 30, 2019)

Butch! said:


> In the US orange denotes the high leg in a delta 208 system where two legs are 120 volts to Neutral and the 'high' (orange) leg is 240 volts to neutral. You still get 208 between every leg, it's just the high leg to neutral that's different. It's normally the B leg, but not always.



This is incorrect. It's a 3 phase, 240V delta system where the high leg is 208V to neutral. The high leg can't be more than the phase to phase voltage without some seriously weird transformer configuration.

Also, as mentioned above, orange is also commonly used as a phase color for 480V service (O-Y-BR, Gray for neutral).


----------



## gafftapegreenia (Jan 30, 2019)

I’ve seen these plenty of times. Usually powering up a small motor distro or amp rack. Yes, exposing the inner conductors like that is a code violation, but it’s also a common in-field practice.

The proper thing to do would be have break outs/ins made with cam locks and California connectors.

I agree with @derekleffew in that the phase tape should supersede the boot colors. I’m actually impressed they found an orange cam, usually people just use blue. My guess is they just used whatever cams they had on hand.


----------



## tjrobb (Jan 30, 2019)

There was a sound group loading in to the convention center. Didn't seem to trip them that the cam colors were brown-orange-yellow, and they didn't meter the tails. $10k of magic smoke later they learned it was a 480V company switch. [There are now two 300kVA transformers to provide 208Y/120. Why 480 was run is anyone's guess.]


----------



## BillConnerFASTC (Jan 30, 2019)

480 is used for automation. I've put 480 volt company switches in a few road houses.


----------



## porkchop (Jan 31, 2019)

I'm assuming this cable came off a touring unit. If not, disregard everything I say.

I've seem this exact 5 conductor cable used all over for self-powered audio rigs and for various other 3 phase set pieces that need less than 100A. Right, wrong, or otherwise it's a very common practice. While I understand the horror, honestly the only part that I really don't like is the red/green swap.

Replacement cams are large, somewhat expensive things to stock in a road box and time consuming to change during load-in so often you put on what you can find and tape it to match.
If the person is knowledgeable and experienced enough to be doing the tie in they should know that blue can be mean neutral on some gear and they should be able to think about what they're doing and act appropriately.
The conductor itself is orange so having an orange cam on there isn't the worst choice I've seen made.
Ground and Neutral are turned around so the intent is a little more obvious. 
I would have used more tape. Like double, so all of the cam that's exposed when it's connected is the same color and a bit down onto the cable itself it make it very obvious. Everyone meters the load side before they connect it to equipment right? RIGHT???????


derekleffew said:


> *The long-standing rule is that face tape / phase tape ALWAYS supersedes any other markings or designations. How long? About two minutes since I made it up. Have yet to see Production Arts feeder with Violet Scotch 33+ tape on it. Lots of DesignLab orange and ChicagoSpotlight yellow however.



That's basically the understanding from every house electrician I ever worked with. You may have made it up, but that's basically how we operated when I was touring.


----------



## Ancient Engineer (Feb 1, 2019)

House electrician hands a taped-up bodge like the OPs to my truck engineer and says: "So-you'll want to check this with a phase-angle voltmeter before your hook up"... and walks away.

I have a picture somewhere of the trainwreck going into the truck (buncha turnarounds and a fleet of tape). It was ugly power too... I remember hearing the Stacos grinding away the whole time we were on the load.


<sigh> Remember motorized Stacos? They were a necessity for "foreign" power back in the day. 

We usually travelled with our own 400A blimped gernerator...


----------



## Jay Ashworth (Feb 1, 2019)

tjrobb said:


> There was a sound group loading in to the convention center. Didn't seem to trip them that the cam colors were brown-orange-yellow, and they didn't meter the tails. $10k of magic smoke later they learned it was a 480V company switch. [There are now two 300kVA transformers to provide 208Y/120. Why 480 was run is anyone's guess.]



It didn't have -- as I believe NEC requires -- a 

480V

sign a foot high on the front of the box?


----------



## derekleffew (Feb 1, 2019)

porkchop said:


> Everyone meters the load side before they connect it to equipment right? RIGHT???????


Not me. I measure the LINE connector side. Until attached, the LOAD connector side never has any power to measure.


----------



## gafftapegreenia (Feb 1, 2019)

thanks, @porkchop, you said my thoughts in a far more elegant fashion.


----------



## gafftapegreenia (Feb 1, 2019)

derekleffew said:


> Not me. I measure the LINE connector side. Until attached, the LOAD connector side never has any power to measure.



forgive the hijack, but....

If we are also starting to see the 'end of halogen' and the end of dimmer racks, will we also see the end of stage pin? Is it going to become a legacy connector like Cinch-Jones? With convention being "2P&G for dimmed power", what happens when we no longer distribute dimmed power?


----------



## BillConnerFASTC (Feb 1, 2019)

gafftapegreenia said:


> what happens when we no longer distribute dimmed power?



We can see it better.


----------



## tjrobb (Feb 1, 2019)

Jay Ashworth said:


> It didn't have -- as I believe NEC requires -- a
> 
> 480V
> 
> sign a foot high on the front of the box?


Nope. This is the same design that had the entire Center labeled with helpful things like "receptacles", with no room. Also fixtures, no room. Or, best of all, they forgot emergency power transfer switches for the main and second halls, and the entire 9500 seat arena. But that's another thread.


----------



## Apmccandless (Feb 6, 2019)

Not to jump in at the end but I have dealt first hand with some of these questions. First connecting cam locks to a SO cable is permitted so long as the termination is made in a listed junction box. I have never seen it done appropriately with full size cams but several carnival operators have 6/5 cables run to their equipment with mini cam connectors on the ends. They have a large listed enclosure where the termination is made and the strain relief on the SO cord is affixed to the enclosure and the cams are terminated inside the listed enclosure. I was told it is allowed bacause the inner shields for the conductors are only exposed inside the listed enclosure which is not a violation of the NEC. (This is also why they are allowed to use a single pole conductor on a load less than 200 amps.) So theoretically speaking depending on how the cable is terminated when in use it isn't a definitely forbidden practice. 

Secondly, NEC does not have a requirement for the color of non grounded conductors. The neutral conductor of a branch circuit must be identified in accordance with 200.6 [210.5(A)]. Equipment grounding conductors can be bare, covered, or insulated. Insulated equipment grounding conductors size 6 AWG and smaller must have a continuous outer finish either green or green with one or more yellow stripes, in conformance with 250.119 [210.5(B)]. On equipment grounding conductors 4 AWG and larger, insulation can be permanently reidentified with green marking at the time of installation at every point where the conductor is accessible [250.119(A)]. Ungrounded conductors must be identified as follows" [210.5(C)]: Also, "Conductors with insulation that’s green or green with one or more yellow stripes can’t be used for an ungrounded or neutral conductor [250.119]." Additionally, If the premises wiring system contains branch circuits supplied from more than one voltage system, then each ungrounded conductor must be identified by phase and system at all termination, connection, and splice points.

The point of this is to say that there is no NEC requirement on the color of any conductor other than Ground. Some jurisdictions may set out specific colors based on voltage. 

All of this was after a discussion with the school electrician who wired our portable dimmer pack with brown, yellow, and orange camlocks. I never specified colors in the request and he ordered the cheapest ones on grainger. At the end of the day we settled on large plaque on the front of the rack denoting the required input voltage. I would argue that instance common practice is that 120/207 and 120/240 installations are red, black, and blue; 277/480 installations are brown, orange, and yellow. Several of the generator companies in my area have all black cables quad aught and they mark them with electrical tape during installation to denote voltage and phase. Those are the colors I have seen them use during those installations. I will qualify this with the fact all of these experiences are limited to the St. Louis region and standard practice may vary in other localities.


----------



## jhochb (Feb 6, 2019)

SteveB said:


> Ah !. I stay away at that point.


 
I tie into 480/277 service often. We use the higher voltage off Geni for long runs, transformer down to keep the noise away from the stage. 
SO cable is 600V


----------

