# Counterweight systems, not fun : )



## CSCTech (Jan 28, 2010)

Well I took down all the lights today to rehang them for the Jr. High play. Well I am going about taking them down. And we have a counterweight type system. So as I take a fixture off, put it on a table, and look back up, I see the electric slowly inching up, throw two fixtures back on and go lower it and take off a couple weights.
Counterweights are very pesky.. take two fixtures off got to bring it back up, go take off some weight, bring it back down, two more, and again and again then reverse for putting new ones on. My hands where nice and black at the end of this weight lifting 

But the configuration looks nice at least. Now to get on the ladder for the foh spots!


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## tjrobb (Jan 28, 2010)

Um, so you didn't have a second person on deck, nor a loading rail?? Sounds kind of dangerous. I recommend against using a fly system (at least loading/unloading) without a second person on deck, just in case.


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## Footer (Jan 28, 2010)

It is fairly common for loading rails to not get installed but still have the full system installed. This means you are either hauling out a pipe heavy set or lowering a pipe heavy set. Either way, its no fun. Usually installers will include a capstan winch or some other way of pulling an out of weight set in. 

It can be a real pain not to have a loading rail but it is livable. The never work alone rule does apply in this situation.


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## DuckJordan (Jan 28, 2010)

um, only two fixtures and it was that far out of weight? i would check your brake tightness. as your break should be able to hold at least 60 lbs. of weight if not more. two fixtures should not throw it off that bad or you don't have your balance set right our fly tower is 60' and its lighter at the top than the bottom, this is because of the cableing but its about a 20 lb. difference. 

but really your fly should not start inching out after just two fixtures. i have taken full curtains off (main drapes) and the fly not move an inch i would have a qualified professional check out your braking system.


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## SHARYNF (Jan 28, 2010)

This is where I really really get concerned about your school. No one seems to have properly trained anyone. You should NEVER try to do this alone. You really need to make sure you KNOW how to do something safely and properly before attempting to do it

We don't want to be posting on the news High School Student severely injured in Mass High school Theater accident
Seriously, you seem to have no problem asking questions, why not ask BEFORE you act 

Sharyn


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## WestlakeTech (Jan 28, 2010)

I'm not gonna bring up the safety issue because everyone else has already done that and I"m sure you've gotten the message. But still, adding a second person will also make the work a lot easier and less time consuming.


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## Footer (Jan 28, 2010)

Just a warning, keep in mind the TOS. 

A lineset can move the the lock can be in perfect working order. Because the floor block floats, an arbor can float by taking slack out of the floor block. Not saying that is what happened here. You should never rely on a lock to hold an out of weight set. There are ways to lock off a set that is out of weight that is beyond the scope of what we should discuss here. If the rope was slipping through the lock, get someone in there to take a look at your system.


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## DuckJordan (Jan 28, 2010)

i understand the TOS here, i would get a qualified professional to come and look at your system and explain to the person what occurred. it may or may not be your lock but DO NOT under any circumstances adjust the lock. only a qualified professional should do this. I am also not saying leaving a line set unbalanced is a good idea, but if your rope is sliding while hanging 2 instruments then there is clearly something wrong.


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## CSCTech (Jan 28, 2010)

Before anyone says it again,
There was two other people with me don't worry. I would never be moving all lights around myself. 

And when I said two fixtures I may of exaggerated but you get the point.

I am sure nothing has been looked at in a while, I will try to get someone in to check brakes and everything. And I exaggerated a little. It only slipped VERY slowly once and that was after taking down two big heavy boarder lights.

Just don't want anyone to think we are unsafe, we take ever procaution we can. Sorry for the miss conception. I would never atempt to do something myself if I did not know what is going to happen. I only thought that, when lifting our wheights, that they where heavier then they where.


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## SHARYNF (Jan 28, 2010)

The problem here is the story keeps changing, and if there were other people there then it would have been easy to temporarily correct the problem, and as others have said, and based on the continual litany of problems at your facility (the auditorium from hell I am beginning to think) someone in the school administration needs to have a professional look over these systems.

when you are young you tend to think you are invincible, it is you get older and wiser that you actually realize how dangerous the situations you put your self into. other people there just observing and not able to help makes for fine observation of your injury but not likely to avoid 

the description of what is going on means that there is potentially a serious problem with your line set system it could be unsafe, it is not something to take lightly. 

If I look back at all the posts from your school it looks like a poorly supervised and poorly maintained facility with all sorts of potentially unsafe conditions. It is crazy that the school seems to have no one experienced in this to properly train and make sure the system is maintained. It does not mean that they have to have another faculty member on staff but it does mean that hireling someone to come in an train and review the installed systems would reduce the likely hood of some serious problems down the line


Sharyn


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## CSCTech (Jan 28, 2010)

I never said there was a problem? I just said it started slowly slipping and how a counterweight systems are not fun... It was a very easy fixed. We just had to have all four hand on the rope and bring it up slowly. There is nothing wrong with our venue besides maybe the brakes should be checked on the flys, we need a new board because of its age and condition and the install of the sound system was finished on a no budget type thing because the contractor bailed during installation.

The only thing I have said here about our place is our board is not good, as nearly everyone else..And we could use a better sound system.

Please do not assume things from just reading the few posts I have made here. If there is anything unsafe going on of course I would tell someone and or get help. I never do anything alone, maybe adjust a light.
Why do you think I have came to this forum? To ask questions so I can do things in a more sufficient and safe manner. Not to be told by someone who has no clue about our position that we are unsafe, that is almost an insult. I do everything I can for this one room, I stay after school countless hours getting things ready. If there is something unsafe beleive me. I would do something about it.


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## photoatdv (Jan 29, 2010)

Okay... lets all play nice. Guys, I think we can all agree we've done dumb things AND proper things that did or could have gone wrong.

CSCTech, no one is trying to jump on you. The issue is the rope never should have started sliding... if that's what happened. Like Footer pointed out earlier, it well could have been the floor block 'floating', which is normal and fine. The other issue is that you lack the training to know exactly what happened. The fact that you cannot determine exactly what happened is a pretty good indicator that *someone qualified* needs to check the locks.

I'm sure you are running a very safe and tight ship... as much a possible in the situation. And yes, rope locks can get out of adjustment. They should periodically be adjusted (and no, I'm not going to get into how it's done). I had that happen on a show and had to get someone more qualified to adjust it because I wasn't really sure how. Then the next chance I had I asked an experienced person to teach me how to do the adjustment. I'd suggest you get a qualified professional to do an inspection and minor adjustments on the system and have them teach you the basics (generally speaking lock adjustment would fall under maintenance that house techs can do with proper training). I believe JR Clancy publishes a document with maintenance and inspection procedures which would be a good read before you work with whoever is coming in... if you can't find it on their website PM me with your email and I will send you the documents.


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## SHARYNF (Jan 29, 2010)

what you wrote in you first post does not seem to match what you are saying now

Counterweights are very pesky.. take two fixtures off got to bring it back up, go take off some weight, bring it back down, two more, and again and again then reverse for putting new ones on. My hands where nice and black at the end of this weight lifting

we can only comment on what you write, not what actually occured

Brakes needing to be adjusted is a safety problem

Sharyn


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## Morpheus (Jan 29, 2010)

You think _Counter weight_ systems aren't fun????


You have never worked on a Hemp rope system, then.
When fly operators hard to start wearing hard hats is when the administration let the TD purchase new sandbags. (slight exaggeration)

Re: Safety issues:
Never work alone, you heard this already it seems, etc. etc.
Do you not have a load rail? If you don't as others said, it's livable, but not ideal.
And I've seen a way to 'lock' a heavily out of weight line set, but it's only a last resort option...

And yea, load rail or no, on an electric usually take off half weight, take off lights, take off other half weight (or half lights, weight, other half lights [6 of one, 1/2 dozen other])


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## CSCTech (Jan 29, 2010)

Photo, Yes, I did say that I will have someone in to check things.

Sharyn, I said, two fixtures off and bring it back up because I could not handle the out of balance weight of three or four, ESPECIALLY not two border lights., I am not the strongest person in the world, and the weights seem heavier then the lights even though their not.

Morpheus,
As I said I never do work alone,
I do not even know what a load rail is so I assume no we do not.

Yeah, I realized that taking the wheight off before bringing it down is a lot easier to hold the rope that is going down, ALOT easier then pushing a rope going down, up.


As for what really happened, I took off two border lights, look up and notice on the tower a slight loosnes in the rope and see the electric very slowly going up. I did not realize how heavy the border lights really where so I puton two fresenls to bring it down, as I knew when I unhooked it it would certainly fall.
I do think : )


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## SHARYNF (Jan 29, 2010)

Here in CB is a very good guide as to what SHOULD be done. The information is pretty much all there for someone to read. That said someone typically should demonstrate to a new user how it is done, so the translation from words to actual practice is made. 

http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/collaborative-articles/5576-counterweight-rigging.html

Sharyn


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## wolf825 (Jan 29, 2010)

I don't know your set up as others here seem to, but I agree with everyone else here on the safety factors noted--you need a second person for safety practice...and especially that your lock should not be slipping with only two fixtures gone..you need an inspection. 

FWIW...at my venue we will do the one-light-off/one-light-on so we don't have to re-weight a lot..etc..and while I do not want to foster the idea of not being safe with ways around things--we also have 4 of 25lb sand bags with clips which we can then temporarily hang on the pipe to over-weight the electric when we are doing changes...just in case the fly guy has to visit the restroom.. 

Be safe...
-w


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## CSCTech (Jan 29, 2010)

Wolf, 
once again, there where two other people working with me.

And the two fixtures in question are two very heavy Border Lights


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## Anonymous067 (Jan 29, 2010)

CSCTech said:


> Wolf,
> once again, there where two other people working with me.
> 
> And the two fixtures in question are two very heavy Border Lights



we understand that. Everybody else here is not trying to call you out. This thread isn't just about you. It's a learning chance for everybody else on this website as well.


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## MPowers (Feb 1, 2010)

A well maintained CW can be fun to work with if you are trained and knowledgeable in its operation.

Have someone from Limelight come out, inspect the system and train you guys in proper operation.

Limelight Productions®, Inc
471 Pleasant Street
Lee, MA 01238-9322 

I hope this helps.

Michael Powers, Project Manager, ETCP Certified Rigger - Theatre
Central Lighting & Equipment Inc., Des Moines, Iowa, Central Lighting & Equipment
[email protected], 515-277-4190x115


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## zuixro (Feb 1, 2010)

MPowers said:


> A well maintained CW can be fun to work with if you are trained and knowledgeable in its operation.



I agree. Working the fly system is one of my favorite jobs, as long as it's a well maintained one.


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## Morpheus (Feb 1, 2010)

CSCTech said:


> Yeah, I realized that taking the wheight off before bringing it down is a lot easier to hold the rope that is going down, ALOT easier then pushing a rope going down, up.



one thing I learned was NEVER PULL UP! You always want to be pulling DOWN.... so bringing a line set in, the line closest to you... hauling it out pull down on the line set farthest away.
(Now, I may have just been taught differently... just saying this is how i learned it.)

Also, I reiterated the safety points because they are important, but i know that you've heard it already


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## photoatdv (Feb 2, 2010)

Yes... never pull up. You can lift the (floating) floor block and suddenly find yourself with a lot of slack in the purchase line.


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