# Buying Robotic lights



## Spikesgirl (Apr 24, 2008)

I need some imput from all you lighting guys. After listening to our LD talk about how nice it would be to have some robotics - my hubby and I have decided that we are going to buy a couple for the theater (and no, I'm not adpoting any new theaters at the moment).

We have an Impression board and our LD says that it will run techno's - which I personally love. No cyberlights for this girl!

However, technology has grown since I've last worked with robotics and I'm asking here - What robotics would you buy (within reason) for a community theater? I have no idea what questions to ask to answer our LD, so it's open season here, folks. HELP!!!!

Char5lie


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## Grog12 (Apr 24, 2008)

Ok first off it's incredibly cute that you call them "Robotics"

Secondly I'd roll with something that run's 120v as opposed to 220v since you're in a community theatre. I'd look at Mac 250's and 700's. Also their tungsten line. The Tungsten is nice because it'll match what's allready in the air without having to color correct.

The question (in my mind) comes down to do you want something to get more washes of color on stage or something that can focus and have a hard edge. Personally if it doens't have CMY these days I'm not really interested.

Give us some more info on the theatre/season and we'll see what we can come up with!


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## David Ashton (Apr 24, 2008)

Whatever you like as long as it is quiet, ie it has a studio mode which will let you use it for shows other than dance.Probably best to find which local company is best to deal with, who will do the servicing? is there a manufacturer service course you can attend?, like Martins.Movers are not like conventionals, a conventional will work for years with a quick clean, but movers need proper care, regularly.What parts back up is there?You may get many preferences but quite frankly they're pretty similar, my Chinese movers work as well as the top end gear visually but the build is not as good, not an issue as we are a low usage company doing a few school shows a year and I have heaps of spares and fix them myself.These sorts of considerations should guide your choice.


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## soundlight (Apr 24, 2008)

Theatre Movers = CMY, Rotating Gobos, and Zoom and Focus Functions.

New or Used VL1000. The VL1000TSD model is best for theatre, because it has shutters and the built-in IGBT dimmer, and will closely match the color temp of the other fixtures in the rig.

I prefer moving heads for theatre, but if you want scanners instead of moving heards, the new Elation Vision Scan 575E is nice. It has a decent set of gobos, including many breakups useful in theatre for soft-focusing in to specials. It also has one of the glass breakups popular in theatre. It has a stepping zoom of 20, 22, and 24 degrees. Not too wide. Don't discount Elation due to their DJ history - they've really been putting out quality products. However, don't go for used Vision Scans, the older ones are not the same product.


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## soundman (Apr 24, 2008)

Whats your price point and are you willing to buy used?


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## Spikesgirl (Apr 24, 2008)

Okay, now you are asking questions that I can answer or at least fake it.

First off, thank you for repsonding as lighitng is not my forte.

Grog - are they no longer called robotics? That what we used to call them. Moving lights, then. Our theater is a pros with a 300 seat capacity. We are closing this season with Full Monty - next season: Big Bang, Cinderella, Children's Hour, I Love You, You're Perfect, Dearly Departed Annie Get your Gun and Frankie and Johnny at the Clare d' Lune. We also rent out to a couple local high schools for their shows as well - no dance shows, just theater (or meetings). 120v is a good idea though - thank you on that!

Allthings - We are getting quotes now, but servicing would be done by our local theater supplier, who has serviced all the other robotics in the area (I know I used to have to haul the lights back and forth). Unless things change drastically, there will be no one on staff to do repairs, so we need something that will hold up fairly well.

Soundlight - I am definitely leaning toward moving heads.

Soundman - at this point, money is not an issue, although it's always a reality. I'm not keen on plunking down $10k for an instrument, but if an issue could be made, I might entertain it. At the same time, I'm not opposed to buying a used instrument either, but would certain want some sort of guarantee or full warranty on it.

The LD is getting quotes, but I just want to make sure that all things have been considered in the fullness of time, so that we get the best bang for our buck.


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## avkid (Apr 24, 2008)

The most common terms seem to be: Automated Luminaries, Intelligent Lighting, Moving Lights, Wiggly Lights, Movers.
Those are just the non-specific terms.


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## Footer (Apr 24, 2008)

avkid said:


> The most common terms seem to be: Automated Luminaries, Intelligent Lighting, Moving Lights, Wiggly Lights, Movers.
> Those are just the non-specific terms.



Don't forget the entire generation that still calls them all vari-lites. I think I hear that more then anything.


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## TimMiller (Apr 24, 2008)

nothing is quiet with martin. Their motors are noisy, mainly due to sloppy programming and lack of engineering. I own over 28 martin fixtures and i am not happy with them. I'd really look at the clay paky alpha's. I saw their alpha 300 shoot a beam all the way across the george R brown convention center here in houston, its a good 600+ ft throw, and it was bright. When i first saw it i figured it was a super trouper spot with some fancy little color mixing module, not a little fixture sitting on a desk. I love all of my claypakys (i currently own 32) and this year at LDI I will be buying either Clay paky alphas or Robe. You should also take a look at Robe. They are very well engineered lights with some really cool technology built in before the rest of the market was even ready for it. With Vari-lite, they are not repair friendly at all. You should make sure you local shop will even touch them. I know quiet a few that will not. If you were in houston, i'd be more than happy to show you some toys to play with and try out. I just sold some studio spot 575's to a local school and they are great theatrical lights also. You can get a CMY color mixing version, also they are completely fanless. There are several lens options you can get, then there is also a zoom lens option you can get that will allow you to zoom in and out.


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## soundman (Apr 24, 2008)

I browsed through the impression manual and the first version is limited to 150 channels and the impression 2 is limited to 300 channels. Depending on how many channels the average show is there might not be enough channels to use moving lights. Most moving lights that you want to be looking at use between 20 and 35 channels a piece. If you have a limit of 150 channels and use 115 channels for conventional control and you have a light that uses 20 DMX channels you will only be able to fit one light into the show file. 

If you have the Impression two the restrictions are not as bad but the control surface is lacking. It would be hard to use them for much more than refocusable specials with out some pretty intense programing. 

Might I suggest an I cue or an ellipscan with a scroller? which is 6 channels (2 for pan, 2 for tilt, 1 for color, and 1 for intensity) much less to deal with and for the situation it seems that you will be getting similar uses for less up front cost and more versitality.


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## TimMiller (Apr 24, 2008)

Channel count does play a very big role. You may want to look at going with the Icue like sound man said and you can even step up to a color mixing module (sea changer) for your source 4, or if you need to buy a source 4 you will still be under the price of a moving light, but you will be getting close.

Personally if i was limited to channels what i would do is
A. Spec a new console to go with the lights
B. Go with some I cues and sea changers on some source 4's. Then for cyc options stick some gobo changers with rotoating gobo option (gam makes some) so you can change out the gobo colors in the cyc. I would probably also stick a sea changer on that light also, so you can have multicolored cyc with breakup gobos. Id do this for 2-4 source 4s.


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## Grog12 (Apr 24, 2008)

If sounds a large issue go with Studio Spot 575 CMY...I'm a big fan of this light even though its not as punchy as I'd like it to be.

Personally I feel any light Q'd properly is quiet....the problem is most people don't take the time to do that.


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## derekleffew (Apr 24, 2008)

TimMiller said:


> ...B. Go with some I cues and sea changers on some source 4's. Then for cyc options stick some gobo changers with rotoating gobo option (gam makes some) so you can change out the gobo colors in the cyc. I would probably also stick a sea changer on that light also, so you can have multicolored cyc with breakup gobos. I'd do this for 2-4 source 4s.


The "modular" approach to moving lights is hereby called "The Gafftaper Method," soon hopefully to become just as popular as McCandless. (gafftaper, I can't find the thread(s). Why don't you start a Collaborative Article?) Buying modular components of a moving light is infinitely more versatile.

I've made my feelings known on purchasing vs. renting moving lights. Moving lights require a great deal of feeding, preventative maintenance, and TLC, and will just collect dust when not needed for a show. Run the financial numbers.

Plus the fact that programming movers on an Impression will just lead to frustration. I just don't think you're ready. Just my 2¢.


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## porkchop (Apr 24, 2008)

I love high end so I would point you in the direction of the studio spot, the CMY version is a good idea, but it's more channels I believe. There are plenty of other good fixtures out there that would work (VL1000, Powerspots. etc...) that is just the one I know best, so what I would do is look to your local dealers. If you have an Elation dealer in town and the closest High End dealer is an hour away, buy the Powerspot. Also as mentioned make sure you can get parts/service and factor that in (I've heard nightmares about fixing Vari-lites)

One idea you might look into that has kind of been mentioned is auto yokes. You either loose some of the fun parts of movers or have to get creative (eg. rotating gobo wheel) but considering it can be done in 5 channels it might be the perfect fit if your channel count is getting close.

EDIT: heres a decent link for info on the Auto Yoke http://www.seal-fla.com/auto-yoke/auto-yoke.htm


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## lieperjp (Apr 24, 2008)

porkchop said:


> One idea you might look into that has kind of been mentioned is auto yokes. You either loose some of the fun parts of movers or have to get creative (eg. rotating gobo wheel) but considering it can be done in 5 channels it might be the perfect fit if your channel count is getting close.
> EDIT: heres a decent link for info on the Auto Yoke http://www.seal-fla.com/auto-yoke/auto-yoke.htm



Has anyone actually used an Auto Yoke? They look interesting. Do they still require the same amount of TLC as a regular moving light?


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## soundlight (Apr 24, 2008)

Don't buy an Auto Yoke - buy an Apollo Right Arm. Smaller, and has a one-arm design. We had a demo of one recently and I really liked it. Albeit kind of slow, it's a very nice unit and has a built in Apollo power supply for scrollers and other accessories such as gobo rotators or DMX irises. Plus, it will move anything - not just source fours. We used it with a narrow source four par with a scroller on it. I see uses for them as a projector moving device, and it could probably move a Source Four with a GAM SX4 in it.


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## derekleffew (Apr 24, 2008)

Here's the Technical Data for City Theatrical's AutoYoke®. MSRP $2353.

Here's the Site for Apollo's RightArm™. MSRP $1195.

Just to add complexity, here's the page for the Rosco I-Cue. MSRP $597.

As with any major purchase, attempt to do a side-by-side comparison of performance and features, to see if any will meet your needs/expectations, _then_ compare cost of purchase and ownership.


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## Charc (Apr 24, 2008)

I-Cue's are sweet, but wait, Gafftaper, you have the capabilities, right? Please hang a S4 w/ I-Cue on a Right Arm?! 

Anyways, what specifically was your LD talking about when he was extoling the virtues of MLs? I'd vote for the Gafftaper Approach if it can be accomplished.


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## gafftaper (Apr 24, 2008)

Now that I am famous for "the method". I will ask you the critical question. 

What do you REALLY want to do with these moving lights? 

-Change colors within a restricted set of choices... buy a scroller
-Active color mixing... buy a Seachanger, or Wybron CXI or Apollo MXR or Morpheus ColorFader.
-Ability to reposition lights between cues.... buy an I-cue or Right Arm
-Make things move... buy a Gobo rotator, Rosco X-effects, Rosco Infinity animation, City EFX Plus, Gam FilmFX, Gam Scen Machine, Gam SX4
-Make the image shrink/grow... buy a City DMX Iris
-Strobe... buy a Strobe...

What do you need the expensive mover for? DJ effects? Do you really want a set of movers that spins and does concert lighting tricks in unison? You are going to need a new console to do that. 

The basic principle of The Method is this. For live theater, the vast majority of the time you only need one or two of the tricks above. So buy the specific tricks that you need. How many times a year do you do a show where you need this spinning and changing colors? What you do probably need is a water or fire effect, or some lights that can change colors. The Gafftaper Method says buy the components and you'll find you get more tricks that you ACTUALLY use for your money. I had a budget of about $50k for toys in my system. I could have purchased 5 Mac 700's. Instead I got 20 Seachangers, 2 rotators, 2 Infinity Effects, 4 right arms, 4 I-cues, and 2 DMX Iris. All of it far more useful on a regular basis than just 4 movers. 

Lets put it this way... Below is the feature list of the MAC 700 profile (one of the top choices for theater).

* 700 W short arc discharge lamp... _Bright and higher color temperature than "the method" but this also means it will not blend well with the rest of your lighting rig._
* CMY color mixing system... _buy a Seachanger_
* 8 position color wheel plus open... _you have a seachanger_
* Motorized zoom and focus... _ok, we can't do that. AutoYoke® has an AutoFocus option. _
* Mechanical dimming... _no problem it's called a dimmer_
* Gobo animation wheel with full movement / direction control... _buy a Rosco Infinity Effects_
* 9 static and 6 indexable rotating gobos plus open... _buy a rotator_
* Interchangeable 3-facet rotating prism... _got me on this one too... but do you need it? City Theatrical's Image Multiplexer._
* Motorized iris... _City Theatrical DMX Iris_
* Strobe effect 2 - 10 Hz, pulse effects, instant open and blackout..._ buy a strobe or a strobe cap._
* Pan and tilt range of 540°/246°..._ I-cue or Right Arm_
* Variable fan control for quieter operation... _not a problem_
* Modular design for easy maintenance and servicing... _even easier and cheaper with components_
* Electronic ballast with hot lamp restrike and flicker free light... _not a problem

Edits by derekleffew.
_


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## porkchop (Apr 24, 2008)

I stand corrected I see little in the Auto Yoke to make it worth double the price, go right arm. I have worked with auto yokes and I gave a little of my ideas earlier but I'll expand. This gives you the ability to do the three things you need movers for most: pan, tilt, and change colors. As gaff illustrated quite nicely, if you need other effects (moving gobos, iris, etc...) that's what accessory slots are for.


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## gafftaper (Apr 24, 2008)

Thanks for adding to my post Derek... my comments back: 

The City Image multiplexer goes in the color frame slot so it's not a very good equivalent to a prism in a mover that can spin. I suppose if you put a rotator in the gate you could get some movement but it's not exactly the same. 

Didn't know there was an auto focus on the Auto Yoke. Interesting... although I would still say just buy a Right Arm/I-cue... focus is a component product that Gaff's Method would say it's probably better just to rent the once a decade you need it. 

As for the Colorfader, MXR, and CXI... True they are options but once you've gone Seachanger you'll never go back.


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## lieperjp (Apr 24, 2008)

How much does a Seachanger cost for an S4?


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## soundlight (Apr 25, 2008)

So I just lost my long and well thought out post to a bad wireless connection. I should really compose the long and well thought out posts in word so that doesn't happen. Anyway, here's the idea of what I said.

I do like the modular approach, with one exception: two good movers. I am all for purchasing all of the icues, rotators, dmx irises, right arms, infinity devices, filmfx devices, seachangers, and scrollers that you can, but get two real movers for specials. And if they're movers with a good zoom range, they'll also to be able to do special gobo/color washes of scenes that take place in a smaller area. I'm also a fan of movement of texture in a direction which can't really be detected. the best way to do this is with a slowly rotating prism, a slowly rotating gobo, and a slowly rotating animation wheel. What is the only kind of fixture that can have all of these features at once? A real mover.

These two main movers should have some key features:
-CMY
-Animation wheel
-Two gobo wheels, at least one rotating, with interchangeable gobos, and gobo morph capability
-Motorized Zoom (not step zoom, should go at least to 40 degrees if not 50)
-Motorized Focus
-Rotating Prism
-Motorized Iris
-Frost and CTO (CTO only if an arc source fixture, not for tungsten fixtures)

This is the approach that we'll be taking with our next upgrade here. We already have 23 scrollers(13 apollo smartcolor, 10 chromaQ), 12 rotators (6 dmx, 6 non), 2 filmFX devices, 2 strobe caps, 2 icues, 2 AF1000s, and 6 venerable old Intellabeam 700HXs for movers. The next upgrade will include plenty of seachangers, 4 more icues, 4 right arms, dmx irises, and two new movers, most likely Robe Colorspot 700E ATs or a comparable fixture.

That being said, I definitely think that the Colorspot 700E AT is the right fixture if you're going arc source moving head. They can be had for around $8500 each new, I think. If those knock out your whole budget, look for used Studio Spot CMY Zooms from someone who wants to move 'em fast to get cash for new fixtures. Looks like used x.Spots are also going for a decent price now, but I've never really liked those.

Oh, and Seachangers are going for around $1700 or so, I think. Maybe Gafftaper got a better price with how many he was buying.


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## derekleffew (Apr 25, 2008)

From the Robe website for the Colorspot 700E AT:
Control channels: 26, 28, 31, 34 or 36.

Even with only two fixtures, could you imagine what a mess it would be programming those fixtures on an ImpressionI or II? Or even an Expression3?

This applies to any moving light: Whom is knowledgeable and available to fix it when it decides to not function properly during dimmer check one hour before curtain? And what parts should one stock?


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## punktech (Apr 25, 2008)

just out of curiosity, and not to high-jack this thread, but what opinions do all of you have on S4 Revolutions? and what can one do when you have them addressed properly and the proper numbers in the board and they will not work?


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## soundlight (Apr 25, 2008)

punktech said:


> just out of curiosity, and not to high-jack this thread, but what opinions do all of you have on S4 Revolutions? and what can one do when you have them addressed properly and the proper numbers in the board and they will not work?



My opinion, and that of many people on this board and in the industry, is that the S4 rev was a flop. The VL1000, the nearest competitor, holds the market much more than the Rev does.

If you're having some specific problems with them, you might want to start a different thread so we can troubleshoot there instead of taking over this thread.


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## derekleffew (Apr 25, 2008)

punktech said:


> ...and what can one do when you have them addressed properly and the proper numbers in the board and they will not work?


Most expedient solution: call ETC Service at 1.800.688.4116, 24/7/365. Every ETC owner should have this number posted next to the phone in the light booth.

Comparisons between the VL1000 and Revolution have been discussed here many times. Search for either, and you should get good results.


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## Spikesgirl (Apr 25, 2008)

You guys are making my head hurt. I'm going to copy off the lot and turn them over to the LD guy. I'm sure he hasn't thought of some of your suggestions/options/choices!

Thanks again for all the help!


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## gafftapegreenia (Apr 25, 2008)

IF you do end up getting movers, I suggest the two Colorspot 700E At's from Robe. We have two of them, along with 18 Seachanger profile units. We are currently programming on an Express, and while it takes some time to get it right, it's not impossible. 

I love this gafftaper method. We need to start publishing informational pamphlets, and get a booth at LDI.


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## gafftaper (Apr 25, 2008)

Derek started a collaborative article on "the Gafftaper method" in the Wiki using my post above. I've edited it a bit to make it a little less specific to this thread. My faithful disciples of the method are encouraged to add to the topic. 


How much does a Seachanger cost you ask? 
Here's the package
-Seachanger Profile XG
-16.5" yoke extension... you need a larger yoke than the standard one
-Mega Claw... these suckers are heavy, you don't want to use a standard c-clamp
-Edison Plug Connector for Seachanger power... it's a very low amp draw but can NOT be dimmed power.
-Source Four Body and Lens
-HPL 750 lamp... the Seachanger cuts down the output a bit so use 750's
-Connector for S4
As with many items the price depends on your relationship with the dealer and how large of a package you are buying but you should be able to get a Source 4 with a Seachanger for about $1800-$1900 ($1600ish if you don't need the S4). The bid price I got from Mainstage was substantially lower than others on the Seachangers, so be sure to give them a try. I'm guessing they have a deal with the manufacturer that others can't beat. 

Seachanger Wash lights will cost you a little bit less because you only need to buy the S4 burner unit. You don't need the rest of the S4, only the portion with the lamp and reflector before the gate.


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## Grog12 (Apr 25, 2008)

Spikesgirl said:


> You guys are making my head hurt. I'm going to copy off the lot and turn them over to the LD guy. I'm sure he hasn't thought of some of your suggestions/options/choices!
> Thanks again for all the help!



HAha What do you expect when you ask a bunch of us lighting folk to talk about our favorite things?


Here's the one thing the page and a half hasn't addressed in attempts to sway towards "the method'. Your instituion has a learning component to it. That alone would make me want to see one or two movers on a rig.

Point 1) You only need one or two features at a time
Counterpoint: While this may be true at a given point during a show it doesn't mean you won't use function 3 and 4 at a different point during the show. Also I'm greedy, I want as many options open to me as I can have. I find Seachangers and Rightarms limiting in this. Yes you can get more units for the dollar, but you're losing flexibility. $1800 for CMY or $2500 for the whole package in a single unit.

Point 2) Do you really want to program on an Impression/Exression?
Counterpoint: People have been doing it for years. Its not as hard as they make it out to be. Yes its difficult, but there are a lot worse programming situations. Search my name and the Leprecon X24. Also you won't start looking at new boards until you have a need for a new board. A few years of programming movers the hard way and getting the people with money to realize you need more movers will also lead to a new board.

Point 3) Color temp.
Counterpoint: Any designer worth a lick of salt plans for this and doesn't let it be a hinderance. In fact it typically becomes a design choice. The last show I designed was lacking a nice wash of a high cooler temp mover mixed in with everything else.
An example of where its a choice: Glass Menagerie Tom's monologues are the present and are presented in nothing but high cooler temp movers to give the rest of the show a more amber/sepia feeling as if we're all looking into the past with him.


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## Spikesgirl (Apr 25, 2008)

Grog - will you marry me? I'm sure my husband won't mind.

Sesriously, thank you for sort of breaking this all down into basic English for me. I know I'd get hard core answers, which is why I asked here. You guys (and gals) deal with things on a daily basis that would never occur to me to ask about. I will turn the posts over to the LD guy. Frankly, I'm not sure why he wants lights - if it's just bragging rights or a need. if he can come back with some reasonable quotes, i don't have a problem. If we can't run them, then I do have a problem. Need to ask some hard edge questions, but want him to do some leg work too (he sort of likes to wait for folks to do his research for him, if you know what I mean).

Thanks again for being patient with a non lighting person!


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## Grog12 (Apr 25, 2008)

Spikesgirl said:


> Grog - will you marry me? I'm sure my husband won't mind.



Eh just tell him he can date my wife! Shouldn't be a problem >:>


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## icewolf08 (Apr 25, 2008)

Well, I totally agree with Grog. I do think there is merit to the "Gafftaper Method" but components never replace the real deal. For every point in the "method" there are plenty of counter points as Grog was pointing out. Seachangers and I-Cues are great for many applications, but there are just some things that you can't do unless you have a fully functional moving light. I think that it really depends on what the situation calls for. Ideally, I would like to have static color changers (scrollers or seachangers) AND Gobo rotators AND and a couple scene machines AND I-cues (or right arms) AND moving lights. (Oh wait, I do have that!)

Why? Because each one of those devices is a tool, a different brush. Sometimes a color ghanging rotating gobo is enough, but sometimes you need to be able to have a selection of different gobos that can go in different places and different sizes and have the punch of an arc source fixture.

I have 6 twinspins, 6 I-Cues, 14 scrollers, and 2 scene machines in my inventory, but you only get a limited number of effects from them. Hang a real ML and I can give basically any effect a designer wants. We end up using the MLs more than any of the other toys because of that.

Sure, every situation calls for the right tool. If you just need your side light to be able to change color so that you don't need to hang multiple systems of side light, scrollers or seachangers are a great option. If you just need a simple motion effect a gobo rotator or scene machine type idea is great.

One of the other real up sides to MLs is that it opens up more design options for an LD. What happens when you are sitting in tech and the director changes some blocking that totally messes up your systems? If you have a ML you can actually get light to where you need it, and design with it (add texture, color, motion, etc.) If you only had a source 4 on a RightArm you might be able to get light to the actor, but it might go all over things you don't want it to, and it may not be in a gobo you like, but you need that gobo for the other times that light is used. Sure, only a few years ago you would have hung a new instrument (and you still might), but MLs save you the time and effort of making sure you have the right instrument in inventory and enough circuits to put it where you want it, etc.

I think that moving lights have as much of a place in your inventory as any other component toy. Sure, you need to be able to support them, and you have to be willing to spend money on them, but they will serve you well. I think that the "Gafftaper Method" is a great first step to getting into intelligent gear, but it is only a first step, not a solution. It is a great way to learn about what is out there and how to use it, but eventually you need to play on the higher level.


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## lieperjp (Apr 25, 2008)

I think it really depends on your application. As of right now, my theatre has no special effects at all - not even a color scroller or a gobo spinner. I think that a Right Arm with a color scroller might be a good way to get acclimated to moving/effect lights, and will let me and my theatre gain the experience, especially because we don't have anyone with the experience to use and maintain moving lights. Also, we don't have the budget for a real moving light, either.


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## Spikesgirl (Apr 25, 2008)

Grog12 said:


> Eh just tell him he can date my wife! Shouldn't be a problem >:>




Now, that would be big of me, wouldn't it? (say it fast). It could be just like "Bob & Carol & Ted & Alice"


Alex - I also thank you. See, my problem is that I will never use the lights and the only thing I had to do with them back in my old theater was usually transporting them to and fro to be repaired. The only one that was allowed to mess with them (i.e. programming) was the TD/LD. I have no programming experience, but am trying to help out our local theater as the LD feels we could benefit from having something newer. We'll see if he actually gets around to researching the situation before he quits.


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## SerraAva (Apr 25, 2008)

I completely agree with Alex's and Grog's statement above and will add a few more cents.

The biggest thing I find with moving lights is they save time. Hang, run power, run data, program. You will have to add accessories to other lights, hang them and the accessories, plus power and data for the accessories and dimming for the lights. Also, if something changes, you can easily change the programming on the moving lights. If you are using the 'gaff method', you might have to change color, gobos, accessories, focus, etc etc, all depending upon what you are using and need to do. This might require repeating the whole process above in worst case. And then you might still have to re-program something. Takes much more time.

As I and others have stated as well, movers can be used for more then one thing. Depending on the type, you can have more then one gobo wheel for morph effects, rotating gobo wheels for effect, color wheels, CMY, animation wheels, zooms, irises, shutters for strobe effects, and movement. Some movers might have all of these things, cheaper ones pick and choose. The ones I find most important in a theatre setting are the movement, CMY, rotating gobos wheel/s, and iris. The biggest two are probably the movement followed by the iris. CMY is a great tool to have, but you can make due with color wheels, and higher end lights will let you replace the dichoic's in them. The gobo wheel/s are great for texture, and rotating one's just add another dimension to them.

Another thing people seem to be touching on is color temperature. Well, generally when using spot movers, you are trying to highlight something, and the higher color temperature helps with this. When you drop color in it, it will change as well. Wash movers are generally never white, so the difference in color temperature doesn't hurt that much. Almost all movers come with at least a CTO filter in a color wheel. Some come with more then one color wheel, a color wheel and/or CMY and CTO variable filter, or a color wheel and CMY. I find I rarely use the color wheel when I have CMY in the light, unless trying to make a very dark color, like a dark blue or red, or some crazy shade of green which I use even more rarely then darker colors that CMY can do. The other time is a UV type effect. Now if your movers just have a color wheel, and you want to color correct but still use color, put a CTO dichoric in one of the slots on the gobo wheel. If you are lucky, you will have two gobo wheels so you can still add texture with this trick.


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## gafftaper (Apr 26, 2008)

Two things I failed to point out. 

The three basic steps to "the method"
1) You should never buy a DMX toy until you have enough conventional lights that you have extras not used in every show.
2) You shouldn't buy a mover until you have a full collection of components. 
3) If you pass steps 1 and 2 then go ahead buy a mover if you have the budget and staff to use and maintain it... those lamps are expensive. 

Point two:
So Mac 700's are what about $9k? And let's say you get a package rate of about $1700 for a Seachanger. That means for the price of four Mac 700's you can get TWENTY Seachangers. Think of the powerful impact of TWENTY CMY instruments on every design you do. True the four Macs will rock when you have a special need. But you will use those TWENTY CMY fixtures in every show. They will become the heart of your designs. 

Thus a key point to the method is the fact that you can spend that money on components that you will ALWAYS use instead of just once in a while.


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## Spikesgirl (Apr 26, 2008)

Went up to the Board last night and discovered we have an Express, not an Impression - I shudder to ask this, but does this make a difference?

And three great points, Gaff, and all of them will be taken to the next step, prior to purchase. I see no reason to buy an instrument just to buy one. We do have plenty of regular lighting instruments and I vividly remember how expensive the lamps were for them. Much will be considered and I have all of you to thank for it. 

After a long discussion with the Production Manager and Chris last night, we also have something else to think about. We are preparing to build a new theater (black box). What sort of lighitng system is going in there? Take the old board and buy a new one for the pros. theater or just a smaller one. And what about those lights? Decisions, decisions....


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## Grog12 (Apr 26, 2008)

What I said about the Impression holds true for the Express...not impossible but difficult. Especially with th elimitation in Control Channels. I would definetly put the Express in the BB and get a new console if you're looking at movers.


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## derekleffew (Apr 26, 2008)

Grog12 said:


> Especially with th elimitation in Control Channels.


Another funny typo. I didn't know Control Channels were "elimitated." Is that like removed _and_ copied?

As you may or may not know, there are many different versions of the ETC Express. Manuals, datasheets, and specifications may be found here. We recently saw an advertisement online that shows a basic ETC Ion for less than the cost of any new Express. All would agree that the Ion is a better console for controlling "robotics" than the Express. 

The Ion will ass?ist you more than the Express.


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## Grog12 (Apr 26, 2008)

Yeah...that one is pretty funny...though I find this one funny as well.


derekleffew said:


> The Ion will ass?ist you more than the Express.


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## icewolf08 (Apr 26, 2008)

gafftaper said:


> Two things I failed to point out.
> The three basic steps to "the method"
> 1) You should never buy a DMX toy until you have enough conventional lights that you have extras not used in every show.
> 2) You shouldn't buy a mover until you have a full collection of components.
> ...


While I agree that component "toys" are good to have, I am still not sure if I agree that you need to have them before you buy MLs. Like I said, I have things like twinspins, I-Cues and scrollers in my inventory and yet more often than not I am hanging plots with MLs and not using the I-Cues, twinspins and sometimes not even using the scrollers.

So sure, you might be able to buy 20 Seachangers or many more scrollers for the cost of 4 MLs, but that doesn't negate the usefulness of the MLs in the inventory. Don't get me wrong, having "component" gear is amazingly useful, but it is not the same.


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## gafftaper (Apr 26, 2008)

Char5lie, one of the biggest problems with trying to run movers on the Express is that it eats up dimmers. If you buy a moving light that requires 16 channels of DMX to control it. The Express needs the use of 16 dimmers in your rack, that can't be used for anything else, to make that happen. The new consoles don't have that problem. On an ION or Strand Palette, a moving light that has 16 control channels only needs one dimmer. 
*EDIT: Umm Ignore the above. Sounds like a problem I had with my early 80's EDI dimmers and early Express console is no longer a problem... see posts below.*

Also the new boards have a wide variety of preprogrammed things to make designing easier. If you want the light to mix the color Fatherless Amber from Apollo, you don't have to spend 5 minutes adjusting values to get the color mix just the way you like. The new boards know what Fatherless Amber is and can create it in a few keystrokes. Likewise, the new boards have effects generators for color changing effects, movement effects, and intensity effects. All these things CAN be done with an Express but will take time to get the look programed just right instead of seconds on a new board. Getting a group of movers to dance in a circle together with an Express can take a half hour. With a new board its 2 minutes.


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## Grog12 (Apr 26, 2008)

gafftaper said:


> Char5lie, one of the biggest problems with trying to run movers on the Express is that it eats up dimmers. If you buy a moving light that requires 16 channels of DMX to control it. The Express needs the use of 16 dimmers in your rack, that can't be used for anything else, to make that happen. The new consoles don't have that problem. On an ION or Strand Palette, a moving light that has 16 control channels only needs one dimmer.



Uhm....not exactly..you can use the 16 dimmers in the rack.

While the Express/Expression line labels them as dimmers in patch, what they are in actuality is DMX channels. Most Express consoles have 2 universes of DMX allowing for 1024 dimmers in the patch screen.

Here's what gaff is trying to get at and it references an earlier post made by myself; the Express line has a limted number of control channels. Hence why there are Express 24/48 and Express 48/96 ect. If you have 96 dimmers in your system with a Exprss 48/96 you can control every dimmer individually. If you have more than 96 dimmers you can still use the board you just have to start giving up individual control i.e. you patch two lights to the same channel.

"So Proffesor Grog, why is this a problem with Robotics?" Each of the 16 *DMX* channels (that the Express calls a dimmer) that the moving light needs to operate correctly needs an individual *control* channel to operate. Now if we have 96 dimmers and 96 conventionals we're going to have to soft patch two-fer 16 of them with something else to use 1 moving light. Clear as mud?


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## soundman (Apr 26, 2008)

gafftaper said:


> Char5lie, one of the biggest problems with trying to run movers on the Express is that it eats up dimmers. If you buy a moving light that requires 16 channels of DMX to control it. The Express needs the use of 16 dimmers in your rack, that can't be used for anything else, to make that happen. The new consoles don't have that problem. On an ION or Strand Palette, a moving light that has 16 control channels only needs one dimmer.



I think I understand what you are saying but the way you have phrased it could lead to some misunderstanding. Lets say you have an express that can address 190 channels. Yet you could patch 1024 dmx address (be it dimmers, scrollers, movers or whatever) to those 190 channels. If you have a rack of 96 dimmers the default set up will be that those dimmers will have address 1-96. If you want to add a mover at channel 90 at the board you can do that in two ways. In a one to one patch you could set the mover's address start at 90. Leaving the rack patch at 1-96 when you change the mover attributes that corrispond to the first 6 channels of the mover rimmers 90-96 will also change their values. 

A way to get around killing those dimmers is to patch intelligently. By putting the mover at DMX address 97 you will not have any conflicts, to get it to respond to channel 90 at the board patch fixture 1 @ start channel 90 DMX channel 97 (thats using the express syntact) Using this method you will be able to use all 96 dimmers in the the rack just not in a 1 to 1 patch. 

Make any sense?


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## SerraAva (Apr 26, 2008)

Just two quick corrections Professor. First, the Express 48/96 can control 192 channels The 24/48 is 96 channels, 72/144 is 244 channels, 125 is 125 channels and 250 is 250 channels. An Expression 3 is 400, 800, or 1200 channels and the Insight 3 is 512 channels.

The second is all Express consoles have 2 universes. The Expression 3 and Insight 3 have 3, as well as duel monitor outs.


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## Charc (Apr 26, 2008)

SerraAva said:


> Just two quick corrections Professor. First, the Express 48/96 can control 192 channels The 24/48 is 96 channels, 72/144 is 244 channels, 125 is 125 channels and 250 is 250 channels. An Expression 3 is 400, 800, or 1200 channels and the Insight 3 is 512 channels.
> The second is all Express consoles have 2 universes. The Expression 3 and Insight 3 have 3, as well as duel monitor outs.



Star Wars reference? 

(Omgz, SerraAva is from Philly, I'll know this comment angered him if I get awakened by a 250kW strobe drive-by!)


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## porkchop (Apr 27, 2008)

charcoaldabs said:


> Star Wars reference?
> (Omgz, SerraAva is from Philly, I'll know this comment angered him if I get awakened by a 250kW strobe drive-by!)



Nah a strobe drive by requires him to take something out of inventory, and who would want to do that just for a prank. All you have to do is wire the incandescents in your house to an effect and run it as fast as possible, trust me you'll think your epileptic afterwards and that's not fun.


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## SerraAva (Apr 27, 2008)

Nah, that's easy enough porkchop, the drive by anyway. A lot of gear lives on the trucks because the warehouse is full soup to nuts with gear. Then again, so are a lot of the trucks. We need a bigger warehouse.

As for the monitors, they do like to fight over which when I am looking at, as well as which one has the cue list on it (swap button )


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## porkchop (Apr 27, 2008)

SerraAva said:


> full soup to nuts with gear



Never heard that saying before. I like it.


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## NFazio (Apr 27, 2008)

i am currently running a show with 6 VL2500's and they are not the quietest things in the world.. but they are amazing lights. I would reccomend the VL3500Q Spots to you. they are quiet and have shutters and all.. Just overall amazing lights


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## Grog12 (Apr 27, 2008)

SerraAva said:


> Just two quick corrections Professor. First, the Express 48/96 can control 192 channels The 24/48 is 96 channels, 72/144 is 244 channels, 125 is 125 channels and 250 is 250 channels. An Expression 3 is 400, 800, or 1200 channels and the Insight 3 is 512 channels.
> The second is all Express consoles have 2 universes. The Expression 3 and Insight 3 have 3, as well as duel monitor outs.


Thank you TA Serra...my notes were a little incomplete during that post


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## soundlight (Apr 27, 2008)

NFazio said:


> i am currently running a show with 6 VL2500's and they are not the quietest things in the world.. but they are amazing lights. I would reccomend the VL3500Q Spots to you. they are quiet and have shutters and all.. Just overall amazing lights



Now that's a light that you really want an ML board for, especially with the shutters. It's not a cheap light either, and probably over the price point. If the LD wants something with shutters, get a VL1000 shutter model.


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## Spikesgirl (Apr 28, 2008)

Spoke with one of our regular LD's and he insisted that our Express board could run 300 robotic lights. Hmm, the other LD says probably one, maybe two.

Curiouser and curiouser


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## soundman (Apr 28, 2008)

Spikesgirl said:


> Spoke with one of our regular LD's and he insisted that our Express board could run 300 robotic lights. Hmm, the other LD says probably one, maybe two.
> Curiouser and curiouser


You could run 300 movers off the express, just as long as you want them all to do the exact same thing and have enough optos to make sure the signal does not degrade


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## Grog12 (Apr 28, 2008)

Spikesgirl said:


> Spoke with one of our regular LD's and he insisted that our Express board could run 300 robotic lights. Hmm, the other LD says probably one, maybe two.
> Curiouser and curiouser


Utter bullsh...uhm I mean caca del torro!

300 individualy controled movers on an express is impossible.


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## SerraAva (Apr 28, 2008)

I didn't know you were fluent in Spanish Professor .

They are correct, you are not fitting 300 movers on an Express. The most you can get at 20 channels a piece on a 1200 channel Expression 3 is 60, 75 at 16 channels a piece. If you have an Express 250, 15 at 16 channels a piece.


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## Grog12 (Apr 28, 2008)

Well my trusty TA...I'm just full of surprises!

And sure you could DMX adress a bunch of the fixtures together...but by that logic I could program an infinited amount of movers on any board I want.


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## porkchop (Apr 28, 2008)

I agree with everyone else, but I can see where your LD is getting confused. Many more modern boards will allows you to put one fixture on a channel and use attributes of that channel to control all it's abilities (fixture 1 patched to channel 1 and channel 1.2 is pan channel 1.3 is tilt, etc....). That is my understanding on how the Strand 500 series works, I know ETC has something similar on their newer boards. I don't know how attributes (or whatever ETC calls them) go against your channel count but to my knowledge the Express line doesn't give you this ability to begin with so that's not really an issue. So you if you had a board that allowed attributes, and attributes didn't go against channel count, and you have a max of 300 channels on your board, yes you would have a max of 300 fixtures on that board (man that would be a pain), but that's just not how your board works.


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## Spikesgirl (Apr 29, 2008)

Thanks to everyone for confirming what I thought. Just because you can doesn't mean you should. I'm thinking this other LD hasn't really worked with moving lights/mirrors (better, Gaff?) and was speaking from hearsay. Still no movement from the LD/TD yet.


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## gafftaper (Apr 29, 2008)

Sounds like you have boys who want toys Char5lie
Maybe they should do a little reading and research on how to actually use the toys before spending any money. You should try to put them in contact with someone like our own Icewolf08 who has toys but uses them like tools. Is there a big theater in the area with some toys that you can put them in touch with? 

One more note arguing for the Gaff method... the biggest theater in the Pacific Northwest (with an inventory pushing 1000 lighting instruments) has color scrollers, rotators etc... but they don't have a single mover. They feel it's not worth the money or hassle to purchase and maintain movers when the Gaff Method works just fine. Ok, I have to admit I first developed "the method" after talking to these guys.


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## TimMiller (Apr 30, 2008)

derekleffew said:


> Another funny typo. I didn't know Control Channels were "elimitated." Is that like removed _and_ copied?
> As you may or may not know, there are many different versions of the ETC Express. Manuals, datasheets, and specifications may be found here. We recently saw an advertisement online that shows a basic ETC Ion for less than the cost of any new Express. All would agree that the Ion is a better console for controlling "robotics" than the Express.
> The Ion will ass?ist you more than the Express.



How much is the ION compaired to the express. I got a quote for the express 24/48 for around 3500-4000. This console is replacing a POS strand 300 that loves to crap out. They want something simple to operate.


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## Spikesgirl (Apr 30, 2008)

gafftaper said:


> Sounds like you have boys who want toys Char5lie
> Maybe they should do a little reading and research on how to actually use the toys before spending any money. You should try to put them in contact with someone like our own Icewolf08 who has toys but uses them like tools. Is there a big theater in the area with some toys that you can put them in touch with?
> One more note arguing for the Gaff method... the biggest theater in the Pacific Northwest (with an inventory pushing 1000 lighting instruments) has color scrollers, rotators etc... but they don't have a single mover. They feel it's not worth the money or hassle to purchase and maintain movers when the Gaff Method works just fine. Ok, I have to admit I first developed "the method" after talking to these guys.



Good call on the 'toys' idea, Gaff. I'm sort of leaning the same way. Had a long lunch with the Producing Director yeaterday and he admitted that we are half a year behind on the new phase of the sound system. We offered to make up whatever monies the theater was lacking to move onto this next phase as opposed to buying two new moving mirrors(we are NOT buying moving lights - I've travelled to Sacramento one too many times returing these for repairs). Told him nine wireless mics and sub woofer or moving mirrors, it was his call entirely. He's getting back to me.

My old theater was running both moving mirrors and moving lights, but we have to wait until the new TD is installed as the current TD (my old supervisor) HATES SCT (my current theater) with a passion that no one can match. He had a pissing match with our Producing director and lost, so that avenue is out. Our only other big theater is a road house and they load in/out whatever is needed per show - theater has no equipment of its own, per se, save a few ellipses. More research is definitely needed though.


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## thommyboy (Apr 30, 2008)

TimMiller said:


> How much is the ION compaired to the express. I got a quote for the express 24/48 for around 3500-4000. This console is replacing a POS strand 300 that loves to crap out. They want something simple to operate.


This is from another thread on board upgrades:

Mstoldal said:


> i was talking to the People from ETC at NAB today, the package deal for a 1024 channel, and a 2 by 20 fader wing and 2 touch LCD, is going to be around 10k for the ION


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## gafftaper (Apr 30, 2008)

TimMiller said:


> How much is the ION compaired to the express. I got a quote for the express 24/48 for around 3500-4000. This console is replacing a POS strand 300 that loves to crap out. They want something simple to operate.



Hey Tim I don't have any prices for you but I've heard people are getting price quotes VERY close to Express prices for the basic ION without wing panel. Given the option it's ION all the way. While an Express is a great board, a 300 is actually a more advanced board than an Express in some ways. So you would be going backward in technology to an Express. Unless you absolutely can't afford them, it makes no sense right now to not buy either an Ion, Congo Jr., or one of the Strand Palettes. Get price quotes and demos on all of them. I'm sure you will find one in your price range and all of them are dramatically more advanced than an Express


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## TimMiller (Apr 30, 2008)

Its for a catholic all girls school, the teacher has no idea how anything works. We train the girls on how to use everything. They have a strand SV (96 channels). And their catwalk is useless for anything moving. Its a tight area to hang a leko in. In their upgrade (took them 8 years) we are specing source 4jr's (limited budget) and an express, because thats all they will ever need. They want anyone to be able to come in push up a fader and make a light come on.

Ok now back on subject, i'd look at the clay paky alphas over a varilight any day, unless its a VL1000 (more buget minded, and like the tungston lamp source) which my work around is either color correct the lekos to match the movers or color correct the movers to match the lekos. I know the profiles will let you do this. The others may also, i cannot remember.


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## derekleffew (Apr 30, 2008)

TimMiller said:


> ...unless its a VL1000 (more budget minded, and like the tungsten lamp source) which my work around is either color correct the lekos to match the movers or color correct the movers to match the lekos. I know the profiles will let you do this. The others may also, i cannot remember.


One of the clever things about the VL1000 is that it has a 7.5"x7.5" color frame slot. Often I use the VL1000AS with a cut of 1/2 CTO as "face light." The 1000 has no variable CTO/CTB, just CYM, and no color wheel either, which I've never really missed.


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## gafftaper (May 1, 2008)

TimMiller said:


> Its for a catholic all girls school, the teacher has no idea how anything works. We train the girls on how to use everything. They have a strand SV (96 channels). And their catwalk is useless for anything moving. Its a tight area to hang a leko in. In their upgrade (took them 8 years) we are specing source 4jr's (limited budget) and an express, because thats all they will ever need. They want anyone to be able to come in push up a fader and make a light come on.



First off, I love the good old Express. It's the number one selling console in history for a reason and they will be around a long time. However at this point it makes a lot more sense to buy a newer console to me. There are just too many really good options out there with dramatically better technology in the same price range. 

If you only want to run individual channels with the occasional sub check out the ETC Smartfade 2496. Its 48 channels when the fader is up to A and another 48 channels when the fader is down to B. You can record presets. VERY simple operation and it should be quiet a bit cheaper than an Express but still ETC quality. 

If you want something very similar to the Express/Strand 300 but with the newest generation of technology, the closest thing to it right now is probably the Strand Preset Palette. It comes in a 48/96 model. It looks very familiar in layout but it's got a ton more power under the hood than either of the old consoles. 

If you are willing to go with a submaster only board then the Strand Basic Palette would be a great choice to consider. 

ETC's ION would in my opinion be the top of the line board for you to consider but it sounds like you don't need a lot of it's features and some of these other boards may suit your needs at lower rates. GET A DEMO!!


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## icewolf08 (May 1, 2008)

gafftaper said:


> First off, I love the good old Express. It's the number one selling console in history for a reason and they will be around a long time. However at this point it makes a lot more sense to buy a newer console to me. There are just too many really good options out there with dramatically better technology in the same price range.


I am not really supposed to say this, and I bet that most of the ETC folk on CB would deny it, but the Express line is at an end. Yes, the ones that are out there will be around and ETC will continue to support it, and yes, if you really wanted one, they would make one for you, or you can find a dealer who happens to have them in stock, but the days of Express are really coming to an end. Besides, the low end model ION is priced lower than a new Express.

Here is my shtik, and it applies to any technology purchases. You don't buy technology for your current needs, you buy for your future needs. Sure, you may only run 96 dimmers and nothing else right now, but in two years you may have 12 MLs that you need to run and doing that on an old console will just bite the big one.

The Strand Palette line is pretty comparable to an ION, like the Light Palette is comparable to EOS. The Palettes will come in at similar prices to different ION setups, so if you are familiar with the way ETC consoles work, it may be more beneficial to go the ETC route. While I happen to love the Strand 300/500 series, the fact that I won't be able to get support for a console that is less than 15 years old in 2010 is kind of a turn off, yet if you still have an ETC Microvision ETC will still support it.

I agree with Gaff that you should get a demo, but I really don't think that it is a wise investment to buy old technology. The thing about these new consoles is that you can configure them to run almost any way you want to. You could configure an ION to fell very similar to an Express, and then when you need the power, you reconfigure.

The big thing: don't be afraid of the new technology, especially in an educational setting, I guarantee the kids will figure it out before you finish chapter 1 of the manual. And also, New, does not mean more complex, just because you have more power and functionality does not change the way the basic functions work.


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## Grog12 (May 1, 2008)

ice...one of the reason some of us old ETC folk don't want to give up the Express is because originally the SmartFade was marketed as its replacement especially in the world of HS theatre.

The SmartFade...quite frankly...sucks. Yes it has its uses, but its a step backwards IMHO from the Express.

I'd love to get my hands on an Ion. And if they haven't screwed up the syntax us ETC folk have come to know and love (like they did with the friggin Congo (yes I know all the back story and no I don't need to read it again)) then it will make its way into the market as a good Express(ion) replacement.


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## derekleffew (May 1, 2008)

Grog12 and Icewolf08 both have good points. What both ETC and Strand must overcome in the HS market is the "48 handles, 48 dimmers, 1 to 1 softpatch," philosophy of the English/Drama teacher. Or else most high schools will have this (no offense intended). Perhaps this is where Gafftaper's book can help. Writing cues or programming subs will not "ruin" an Express. Yes, the students will catch on immediately, but the poor English teacher must still be able to turn on the lights, without calling for a member of the AV Club.

<drifting off-topic> Remember the nerds and geeks who set up the projectors and ran the films for classes? They now make $25-30 per hour working in Convention Centers in Las Vegas. Still setting up flip charts, screens, and projectors. Good living if one can stand the tediousness and boredom.


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## icewolf08 (May 1, 2008)

Grog12 said:


> ice...one of the reason some of us old ETC folk don't want to give up the Express is because originally the SmartFade was marketed as its replacement especially in the world of HS theatre.
> The SmartFade...quite frankly...sucks. Yes it has its uses, but its a step backwards IMHO from the Express.
> I'd love to get my hands on an Ion. And if they haven't screwed up the syntax us ETC folk have come to know and love (like they did with the friggin Congo (yes I know all the back story and no I don't need to read it again)) then it will make its way into the market as a good Express(ion) replacement.


I realize that people don't want to give up their Express consoles, my point was more that if you are in the market for a new console you shouldn't be looking to the Express(ion) line.

I actually had the chance to have a full ION demo this week. On the most basic level it programs like an Obsession, so if you know ETC syntax it shouldn't be too hard to pick up. On top of that you have many of the features that you find on EOS (only harder to get to for lack of buttons or built in touch screens). The biggest difference on the basic level is that ION is tracking native. There are many features that I am not sure that I would ever use, but by the same token there are many new ideas (for the ETC line and in general) that will blow you away. Plus, getting all that for the same price as an Express is pretty impressive in my book.


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## soundlight (May 1, 2008)

derekleffew said:


> What both ETC and Strand must overcome in the HS market is the "48 handles, 48 dimmers, 1 to 1 softpatch," philosophy of the English/Drama teacher. Or else most high schools will have this (no offense intended).



The 7500 series is actually pretty darn powerful. The bottom row of faders can be subs with effects in 'em, you can set up a cue stack, and it's a rather powerful board. It's a dream board for busking concerts that don't have movers (just pars, lekos, and blinders) because you can have the top row be individual fixtures/softpatched sets of fixtures, and you can have the bottom board be full stage washes, a few various looks, and a bunch of different chases, and you can tap/sync to the music, which is a very nice feature. It's also just as easy to record subs on as an express...set faders, press record, press the bump button under the sub's fader. I think it might even be paged subs, too. You also have full softpatch out of an entire universe.

The board schools would end up with is an NSI 7000 series or a Lightronics board of some type.


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## Grog12 (May 1, 2008)

icewolf08 said:


> I realize that people don't want to give up their Express consoles, my point was more that if you are in the market for a new console you shouldn't be looking to the Express(ion) line.



Post-ION I agree with you. Pre-ION I didn't.


soundlight-Boards without 10-keys will always be inherently more time consuming than those with 10-keys.


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## gafftaper (May 1, 2008)

Grog12 said:


> soundlight-Boards without 10-keys will always be inherently more time consuming than those with 10-keys.



That doesn't matter to the English teacher down the road who runs the drama club and just wants to turn 20 lights on and off without learning anything. 


As for the Express I had an ETC sales rep tell me three years ago that the Express was soon to be replaced. Now they've sort of hit the market above and below it without replacing it exactly but it's days are SEVERELY numbered in production. Anyone with half a mind for tech can buy an Ion and anyone afraid of tech has the Smartfade. What else do they need?


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## Grog12 (May 1, 2008)

That's actually kind of my point gaff. Before the Ion came out they were marketing the SmartFade as their replacement to the Express. Namely because the Express was marketed towards the English teacher down the road. For 3 years there was no palpitable replacement for it for people who wanted more than plug and play. Now we have Ion.


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## Charc (May 1, 2008)

gafftaper said:


> That doesn't matter to the English teacher down the road who runs the drama club and just wants to turn 20 lights on and off without learning anything.
> As for the Express I had an ETC sales rep tell me three years ago that the Express was soon to be replaced. Now they've sort of hit the market above and below it without replacing it exactly but it's days are SEVERELY numbered in production. Anyone with half a mind for tech can buy an Ion and anyone afraid of tech has the Smartfade. What else do they need?



Does it make sense to remake the express, as it is, without all the "fancy" features, if ETC hasn't yet hit this middle-ground?


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## icewolf08 (May 1, 2008)

charcoaldabs said:


> Does it make sense to remake the express, as it is, without all the "fancy" features, if ETC hasn't yet hit this middle-ground?


Why, you can get the same functionality from ION starting at a lower price.


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## soundlight (May 1, 2008)

icewolf08 said:


> Why, you can get the same functionality from ION starting at a lower price.



Making a compact board based off of the ION with a built in 24/48 fader system would probably sell to high schools. 512 outputs (one full universe), make some slightly smaller ML encoders and put them at the far right of the console (faders on left), and make it small enough to fit in to a cramped HS booth and easy enough for a teacher to turn on and bring up a fader. I'm sure that the idea of a modular console is daunting to some teachers, and 1000 output parameters seems like an overwhelming number.

Make it so that someone who really wanted to do lights could use the ML section, have keypad access to a full softpatch and effects section, but also make it easy enough for a teacher to come in and use a restore disk after the show to call up a default patch and sub set that is made during the install.

Basically, I think that no HS console should be without 24/48 operation if they have a 48 rack. With a full universe of outputs, you could fit 10 moving lights at 30 channels each if you wanted to. But 20 channels is more realistic for MLs that a HS would get. So, that leaves you with room for the 48 or 96 rack that they'd have (anyone with the cash to get a 144 or 192 rack would also have the sense to get an ION), as well as some LED pars, fog machines/hazers, and DMX toys as they come along.

So basically, re-make the express and base it off of the ION platform, include a 24/48 fader section that can all be swapped to subs, and put the ML section off to the left in order to reduce the console depth so it'll fit in tighter booths where it's sitting on the little shelf that was built behind the booth window for the old Lightronics, Leprecon, or NSI board that was in there first.

And if the ION is priced so low, this console should list for $2800 and go for $2200.


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## Charc (May 1, 2008)

soundlight said:


> Making a compact board based off of the ION with a built in 24/48 fader system would probably sell to high schools. 512 outputs (one full universe), make some slightly smaller ML encoders and put them at the far right of the console (faders on left), and make it small enough to fit in to a cramped HS booth and easy enough for a teacher to turn on and bring up a fader. I'm sure that the idea of a modular console is daunting to some teachers, and 1000 output parameters seems like an overwhelming number.
> Make it so that someone who really wanted to do lights could use the ML section, have keypad access to a full softpatch and effects section, but also make it easy enough for a teacher to come in and use a restore disk after the show to call up a default patch and sub set that is made during the install.
> Basically, I think that no HS console should be without 24/48 operation if they have a 48 rack. With a full universe of outputs, you could fit 10 moving lights at 30 channels each if you wanted to. But 20 channels is more realistic for MLs that a HS would get. So, that leaves you with room for the 48 or 96 rack that they'd have (anyone with the cash to get a 144 or 192 rack would also have the sense to get an ION), as well as some LED pars, fog machines/hazers, and DMX toys as they come along.
> So basically, re-make the express and base it off of the ION platform, include a 24/48 fader section that can all be swapped to subs, and put the ML section off to the left in order to reduce the console depth so it'll fit in tighter booths where it's sitting on the little shelf that was built behind the booth window for the old Lightronics, Leprecon, or NSI board that was in there first.
> And if the ION is priced so low, this console should list for $2800 and go for $2200.



I'd say 48/96; plus, two universes. Any HS with MLs is most likely to run one universe to conventionals, wherever the hell the dimmers are located, and another to where ever the MLs would go. At minimal extra cost to ETC, schools will save money on data runs. Two universes, and you're golden.


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## soundlight (May 1, 2008)

charcoaldabs said:


> I'd say 48/96; plus, two universes. Any HS with MLs is most likely to run one universe to conventionals, wherever the hell the dimmers are located, and another to where ever the MLs would go. At minimal extra cost to ETC, schools will save money on data runs. Two universes, and you're golden.



But then you've got a 1000 output ION...the point was to be less than that...a good DMX splitter is 200 bux.


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## Charc (May 1, 2008)

soundlight said:


> But then you've got a 1000 output ION...the point was to be less than that...a good DMX splitter is 200 bux.



Touché, and you eliminate any confusion when dealing with multiple universes, likely to confuse the drama teachers. What about two outputs for one universe?


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## soundlight (May 1, 2008)

charcoaldabs said:


> Touché, and you eliminate any confusion when dealing with multiple universes, likely to confuse the drama teachers. What about two outputs for one universe?



Put the splitter in the board. Genius! And yes, just one universe is much less confusing to teachers and students who are just starting.


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## porkchop (May 1, 2008)

Sound you have a point with the idea of remaking the console, but thats the point of the expandability. When the teacher comes into the dealer, the dealer should say hey we can get you the ION, get one wing (two if you want 40 faders), we'll attach it to the board permanently (the ETC guys that did our demo swore you could pick up the console by the sides with fader wings attached) and then you'll have your faders. 

As far as your point about cramped booths, IMHO your just plain wrong. I'd laugh at you if you thought the console was too wide, but thats not how I read your post. But even as far as depth goes it's not bad it didn't seem any deeper than the innovator 48/96 I had in high school.

EDIT: Looked up the data sheets the ION is a full 8" smaller depth wise than my old innovator. The ION with 20 faders is 27" wide, with 40 its 36", thats a compact console thats perfect for "cramped high school booths" IMHO..... Wasn't this thread once about lights not consoles?


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## porkchop (May 2, 2008)

soundlight said:


> Put the splitter in the board. Genius! And yes, just one universe is much less confusing to teachers and students who are just starting.



If more than one universe is confusing, then when they do the install only plug into one of them. If the teacher it two tech squeamish to figure out how two DMX universes work are they likely to be plugging and unplugging things from the back of the board?


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## icewolf08 (May 2, 2008)

soundlight said:


> Basically, I think that no HS console should be without 24/48 operation if they have a 48 rack. With a full universe of outputs, you could fit 10 moving lights at 30 channels each if you wanted to. But 20 channels is more realistic for MLs that a HS would get. So, that leaves you with room for the 48 or 96 rack that they'd have (anyone with the cash to get a 144 or 192 rack would also have the sense to get an ION), as well as some LED pars, fog machines/hazers, and DMX toys as they come along.
> So basically, re-make the express and base it off of the ION platform, include a 24/48 fader section that can all be swapped to subs, and put the ML section off to the left in order to reduce the console depth so it'll fit in tighter booths where it's sitting on the little shelf that was built behind the booth window for the old Lightronics, Leprecon, or NSI board that was in there first.
> And if the ION is priced so low, this console should list for $2800 and go for $2200.


Ion starts smaller than an express. Add two 2x20 wings and you have all the manual control. Wings can be firmly locked into eachother and the console such that you can pick the console up by the wings (unlike the Strand 300 which really didn't lice to be picked up by the wings unsupported). This interlocking eliminates the need for the USB and power connections to the wings as they are fed from the console.

Settings can be recalled from the internal hard drive or from a USB flash drive. Screens can be customized to show only what the user wants to see, be that channel levels, fader levels, cue list, etc. All of this can be recalled from saved settings.

This is besides the fact that the Ion platform really makes life easier for the people who don't know how to use a console. With presets, all a user would have to do is load the default show and then activate (either by mouse, touch screen, or keypad) the preset they need. So you could have presets built for the band, the choir, improv club, etc. Then for the people who need more individual control you have subs which could be programmed to act as channel faders or subs or both.

If the big thing is you want manual control, you can have up to 240 sliders on an Ion, I'd say that is plenty of sliders. Of course each of those 240 sliders can be configured to do just about anything.

It is the real brilliant thing about the new generation consoles. They are totally customizable to what each user needs. It can be as simple or complex as you want it.

As for the price thing, the prices you listed are around where SmartFade is


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## gafftaper (May 2, 2008)

I was under the impression that you can't turn those ION wing panels into a 2 scene preset. Is that correct? If that's true, it's going to have a hard time down at the local high school with the technophobic drama club adviser. It's got to have 48 sliders and a few subs to make those people happy. 

While I'm a fan of ION, I don't buy the reconfigurable approach. I think people either want a 2 scene, a small sub board, or something with submasters up the Wazzoo. Strand gives you the choice. ETC says they can give you whatever you want by reconfiguring. But I think most low to midrange users have a specific image in mind of what they want the console to look like. The reconfigurable thing just doesn't excite me. I see it as an advantage for rental shops and for small but growing theaters that want to add on additional things in the future. But any sort of reconfiguration is just something else for the technophobic drama club adviser to have to learn how to fix.


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## TimMiller (May 2, 2008)

I think the smart fade is a joke of a replacement it the express. The thing looks like something made by american dj. Its tiny, and you cannot simply call up dimmers. I am not a strand console fan, I have issues with the syntax. If it were truely up to me i think i'd stick a hog in there with a wing or two and call it a day. I honestly think i could install a strand mini light pallete and they would be more than happy. I just need something with faders, the ability to patch and store cues. I grew up not using a ton of faders and i still dont. On an express half of my stuff is stored in groups, and i only use a small number of faders. They are trying to do this as cheaply as possible. I am definately going to check out the ion, i have schools that are ready to replace their expression3 due to lack of channels and ability to control movers.


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## gafftaper (May 2, 2008)

TimMiller said:


> I am not a strand console fan, I have issues with the syntax.



/=through 
+=and
-=except
2[/]14[-]12[+]18[@] 85 [enter] 
It assumes you are talking about channels. The line above means turn on channels 2 through 14 except for 12 and also add 18 all at 85%

[record] [enter]
Record it as the next sequential cue available or you can say...
[record] [cue] 53 [enter]

Do you have syntax issues with that? 

While it's true I've had some issues with weird things about where they've placed some of the more advanced functions. Basic programing is VERY simple and will take 5 minutes to learn. The hardest thing is instead of submasters they call them "looks". I suggest you take a more serious look at the new Strand palettes. They sound like a good fit for your needs to me.


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## icewolf08 (May 2, 2008)

gafftaper said:


> /=through
> +=and
> -=except
> 2[/]14[-]12[+]18[@] 85 [enter]
> ...


Actually, as a Strand user, that syntax, especially for Through would drive me nuts. Why get rid of the THRU key? The / has so many other uses (at least in the 300/500)

However you should be able to eliminate a keystroke when recording cues, because if you can't just hit [RECORD] 53 [ENTER] and have it assume you mean cue then I would get frustrated really fast.


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## Charc (May 2, 2008)

icewolf08 said:


> Actually, as a Strand user, that syntax, especially for Through would drive me nuts. Why get rid of the THRU key? The / has so many other uses (at least in the 300/500)
> However you should be able to eliminate a keystroke when recording cues, because if you can't just hit [RECORD] 53 [ENTER] and have it assume you mean cue then I would get frustrated really fast.



The "+" and "-" I find logical, "thru" is just genius, where the deuce did "/" come from?


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## gafftaper (May 3, 2008)

icewolf08 said:


> Actually, as a Strand user, that syntax, especially for Through would drive me nuts. Why get rid of the THRU key? The / has so many other uses (at least in the 300/500)
> However you should be able to eliminate a keystroke when recording cues, because if you can't just hit [RECORD] 53 [ENTER] and have it assume you mean cue then I would get frustrated really fast.



I was unclear there. I meant you can hit [record] [enter] and it records whatever you have up as the next cue or you can add in a specific number if you want to record out of order.


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## gafftaper (May 3, 2008)

charcoaldabs said:


> The "+" and "-" I find logical, "thru" is just genius, where the deuce did "/" come from?



My guess is that's a left over from the Horizon roots and wanting you to be able to program either from the console or the keyboard.


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## Grog12 (May 3, 2008)

I have problems with Strands Clear function and the entire patch window when it comes to Syntax


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## icewolf08 (May 3, 2008)

Can you elaborate on the issue with the clear function? Patch is simple: Dimmer# (or address) @ Channel#. Sure, the output ordered patch screen is a little annoying, but you can change it to channel order. I have found times when both are useful.


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## gafftaper (May 3, 2008)

Remember we are talking about this guy buying a new Strand console. The 300 and 500 are no longer made. 

The new patch window is really easy to use. 

First column is channel
Second column dimmer #
Third column what is it? Dimmer (default) or a pop up box lists a missive list of manufacturers of intelligent products to load their profile: for example find Martin and then select MAC 700
Fourth column _if needed_ is what channel do the DMX device's attributes begin at. 
The only annoying or difficult thing I've found is after you load the profile it loses the dimmer data in column 2 so you have to go back and type it in again. 

When you go back to the live menu and select the intelligent gear the console knows what is where and what attributes it has. If you particular product is not on the list they will make you one. Took them less than two business days to make me four profiles.


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## soundlight (May 3, 2008)

gafftaper said:


> When you go back to the live menu and select the intelligent gear the console knows what is where and what attributes it has. If you particular product is not on the list they will make you one. Took them less than two business days to make me four profiles.



One reason that I really like the Obsession is that the profile builder is very easy to use. I can make my own profiles very quickly. Does anyone know if there is a similar profile builder to the Obsession one on ION and EOS? Haven't dug this far in to the offline yet. I really like being able to go in and tweak profiles to my programming style for a certain fixture. It often speeds up programming time.


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## Grog12 (May 3, 2008)

icewolf08 said:


> Can you elaborate on the issue with the clear function? Patch is simple: Dimmer# (or address) @ Channel#. Sure, the output ordered patch screen is a little annoying, but you can change it to channel order. I have found times when both are useful.



My issue with patch is the fact that you can accidently profile something easily but making the profile disappear takes for ever.

The clear function...or releasing a captured channel just is annoying...Remdim? Really what the hell does that even mean.

The syntax and I just don't mesh...which is ok.


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## gafftaper (May 3, 2008)

soundlight said:


> One reason that I really like the Obsession is that the profile builder is very easy to use. I can make my own profiles very quickly. Does anyone know if there is a similar profile builder to the Obsession one on ION and EOS? Haven't dug this far in to the offline yet. I really like being able to go in and tweak profiles to my programming style for a certain fixture. It often speeds up programming time.



Not answering your question, but as far as I no you can't build your own profiles for the new Strand Software. There's too much to do to integrate it in to the color library. I wouldn't be surprised if that was true for ETC as well since they are so similar. 


Grog12 said:


> My issue with patch is the fact that you can accidently profile something easily but making the profile disappear takes for ever. The clear function...or releasing a captured channel just is annoying...Remdim? Really what the hell does that even mean.
> The syntax and I just don't mesh...which is ok.



I would say it's REALLY hard if not impossible to accidentally profile something on the new Strand Palette software. I don't think there is a Remdim button anymore... don't remember seeing one. As for the clear function you just have to hit the Release button a time or two to clear things. If you selected instruments in multiple groups it make take two or three hits to release them all as it goes backward in order. This is convenient if you have a base group of lights and you are adding one as one hit releases just the most recently added light so you can then leave the base alone and add a few more. Instead of having to reselect all of them.


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## derekleffew (May 3, 2008)

Grog12 said:


> ...Remdim? Really what the hell does that even mean...


RemDim (Remainder Dim) is a feature I've loved since 1980. Some consoles use the word "solo" to accomplish the same task.

[user]Gafftaper[/user], see page 279 of your OSv10 User's Manual for the Palette. Or page 225 of the older (modern) Light Palette Manual.

If you really want to get confused, look-up Highlight and Lowlight in the Strand Manuals. These features will be coming to the ETC Eos/Ion in v1.4.


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## gafftaper (May 4, 2008)

derekleffew said:


> Gafftaper, see page 279 of your OSv10 User's Manual for the Palette. Or page 225 of the older (modern) Light Palette Manual.
> If you really want to get confused, look-up Highlight and Lowlight in the Strand Manuals. These features will be coming to the ETC Eos/Ion in v1.4.



I would look it up but they haven't sent me a manual yet. Our mutual friend tells me they haven't printed them yet and she will get them to me as soon as they do. 

I actually have worked my way through the online version of the manual but last I looked it had gaps in it where they hadn't finished updating the manual to OS10 yet.


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## porkchop (May 4, 2008)

Grog12 said:


> Remdim? Really what the hell does that even mean.



Remainder Dim is a wonderful function I love it. It makes life really easy when the LD wants to start with just one light on, but doesn't tell you that until after they've told you which light they want


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## tekgoddess (Jun 13, 2008)

Does anyone know what I should ask for Martin RS 918's that are 3 years old. MUST SELL!
tekgoddess


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