# Question for High Schools: Deeper apron or deeper US?



## BillConnerFASTC (Apr 19, 2017)

In the process of designing a new HS auditorium and stage. Currently plan has about 30' of depth upstage if proscenium and 7 to 8 from proscenium to edge of stage - the furthest projection of a shallow curve. I have resisted the very deep forestage, just enough for a lectern and speakers or a table and chairs. If adding stage depth would you rather have it in forestage or upstage of proscenium? 

I prefer it upstage, do things behind a curtain are not so far away, and it's easier to have scenery and good lighting positions. The architect prefers it downstage because he did that 10 years ago and thinks they liked it. If it's added forestage, there seems to be no understanding that it needs to be lit well - a second catwalk - and should permit some way to rig or suspend scenery and props over it.

The pit is fully below stage and there will be a row of removable platforms downstage regardless of where it is.

I'd like to present both to school but architect is not supportive.

Thanks for your thoughts.


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## Colin Bishop (Apr 19, 2017)

I'd like the upstage space. As a student in a high school with an auditorium with low amounts of space any more space on the stage would be good. For our shows our wings are almost always full and any extra space on the stage itself would be great. Perhaps with a traveler to close it off to prepare for scene changes or just to use a storage space in general would be how I would want space to be spent in my theater.


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## TNasty (Apr 19, 2017)

I personally prefer to have more space upstage, as that tends to be the actual usable space for most performances. Actors and directors alike seem to like it when there's space for their actors to come out of the wings and not have to "balloon" down the stage too much. Technical people would agree that upstage space is more valuable too, since as you mentioned, it offers plenty of wash lighting options, and a decent selection of rigging options.

The only reason I'd like to have a big forestage is if the venue was designed solely for the purpose of political debates, presentations, and other "official" things where you don't want wandering eyes (or a lost presenter).

Just because somebody likes something doesn't mean they'd like it more if it was different. I like the self-climbing hoists I have over the house in my auditorium, but I'd like it more if they went with a more typical crawlspace or catwalk type of rigging.


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## Wheezy (Apr 19, 2017)

I am torn between the two choices. More upstage space gives good room for cyc and uplighting. But, we do a ton of set changes with the grand closed, using the forestage quite often.

We have about 12 feet from proscenium to edge at center, about 10 feet at the left and right ends.


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## Scarrgo (Apr 19, 2017)

upstage upstage upstage, enough room down of the main for a table/lectern/two person scene...gain extra space when pit not needed for meetings and what not, always wish for a deeper stage and more storage/crossover space...
I have a far amount of space downstage of the main, and I do not think lighting was ever considered, always a pain to light well...

Sean...


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## JonCarter (Apr 19, 2017)

I agree with the above. In any theatre I've ever worked the space between the plaster line and the edge of the pit is a nuisance to be "shouted over" by any stage production (or "played over" by any orchestra or band concert.) This is only a greater separation between the production and the audience. If you want to put the production _IN_ the audience, scrap the proscenium and put it _all the way_ in the audience. In a proscenium theatre enough room for a lectern and a few chairs is more than enough.


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## Skervald (Apr 20, 2017)

I'll add my vote for more upstage space. It seems many high schools rely heavily on wagons and other "push on" type set pieces. More upstage stage space also means more wing space. That's a win in my book. If a situation calls for a shallow playing area or the need to change a set behind a curtain comes up, a traveler or a boarder can always be brought in. I realize in many venues it's the only choice choice for masking but I like to avoid bringing the grand in mid-act.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Apr 20, 2017)

If you do have 10-15 or more feet ds of curtain, does it seem reasonable that it should be possible to light it like the upstage space, similar front, top, side, and back lighting positions? For me the more recent practice of video everything demands the good backlight capability.

How necessary is the ability to rig - suspend - scenery and props over forestages? A pipe grid or a catwalk and gaps in the clouds under it or similar.


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## Wheezy (Apr 20, 2017)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> If you do have 10-15 or more feet ds of curtain, does it seem reasonable that it should be possible to light it like the upstage space, similar front, top, side, and back lighting positions? For me the more recent practice of video everything demands the good backlight capability.



Seems reasonable. However, we mostly frontlight the forestage. Still comes through okay on video.


> How necessary is the ability to rig - suspend - scenery and props over forestages? A pipe grid or a catwalk and gaps in the clouds under it or similar.



For us, not at all. We don't have any means or need to suspend anything downstage of the plaster line.


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## Scarrgo (Apr 20, 2017)

I would say yes, every area should be able to be able to have at least some decent lighting....catwalks are a great thing....just watch your head on that air duct....


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## peacefulone61 (Apr 20, 2017)

I would recommended that the majority of the space be added up stage however without seeing the full arch you might add a little more in front of the proscenium as well but only another 2'. 

I have never had scenery that was not self supporting in front of the Arch in the way of theatrical events so I have never had a need to fly things there, but I actually find I never have enough lighting for the space in front of the arch that is designed to work for that area.


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## TheaterEd (Apr 20, 2017)

Honestly, anything happening in front of the curtain is generally a 'limbo' scene, so no props or set pieces. That being said, we only have about five feet to work with in front of the main when our pit cover is open so we are really not able to hold a scene out there while we do a scene change (we can do basic scenes, but a song / dance is out of the question, just no room for choreography). So I would love if I had about 3 more feet in front of the main and before the pit cover.

The VAST majority of 'events' in the auditorium are meetings and awards type things so it is absolutely essential that I be able to host those events in front of a closed curtain while other things are set up on the stage.

If a top lighting position were available, that would be a dream. At the bare minimum, if I had individual control over the row of house lights that are above the forestage that would be amazing.

Will this theater have a fly loft? A full fly system can really reduce the need for upstage space. 

How much space are you talking? enough to add a crossover hallway behind the stage? 

I currently have about 30' upstage of the main and have never had a problem with having enough depth. but I have a 10'-12' deep pit cover with another 5' of space, so for everything other than our musical the directors are always pushing the kids WAY down stage to get closer to the audience for sound purposes. The big problem here is that all of our overhead mics have to be mounted upstage of the main.... It's a catch 22. 

I think my ideal would be something like 30' upstage, 8' downstage, and then something like a 6'-8' arc for the pit cover.

I'm rambling now and too tired to go back and edit for clarity, so take from this what you will..... Good Morning CB!


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## MNicolai (Apr 20, 2017)

Upstage preferred. I worked for several years in a room with a 60' wide proscenium, ~18' of depth at center from PL to accommodate a large orchestra pit filler system. Torm positions were inaccessible and no dedicated lighting position above apron. Orchestra pit fillers meant no scissor lifts could get up above this area if we did have a lighting position we needed to focus.

Several years of solicting quotes and trying to get approvals to add a lighting position that could at least be bounce focused, to no avail. Believe they recently dead-hung some ladder truss from the roof and put some LED fixtures up there for a couple shows using a rented 35' one-man lift.

Music events didn't care much but anything theater/dance was complicated. Apron was a completely different world in how it could be lit and the main valance was eventually removed and replaced with a couple drop boxes and a row of S4 PAR's and ERS fixtures that at least offered some back light.

As a designer, every show was a long conversation with the director about how we could or couldn't use the apron. Of course everyone wants their actors to be right up near their first row of seating (as they should be), but that just wasn't always possible. Dance got screwed especially because the extreme depth from the PL made for some interesting choreography for anything coming on/off stage between the wings and downstage center.

It was nice being able to have enough floor space downstage of the main to have talking heads and panel discussions in front of a closed curtain, but 18' was easily twice as much as was appropriate for that.


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## JChenault (Apr 20, 2017)

For my two cents, it is extremely useful to have enough of an apron to do an in one scene while the scenery is shifting upstage. ( without having to rig a show curtain ). 
When we did our renovation we ended up with an apron of between 6 and 8 feet ( curved stage). 25 feet from plaster line to cyc and it is very tight as we have no fly system and typically use wagons.

If it were me I would resist more apron than this.

Note that our apron has side entrances ( actor does not have to fight through the curtain). As well as a dedicated side light and top light position. IE it needs just as much light as the rest of the stage.


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## Aaron Clarke (Apr 20, 2017)

In my HS we had about 15-18' which I found was a bit much and lighting just wasn't considered at all. So, unless the pit cover was off for a musical, it was useless for productions. Front lighting was from a 70+ degree angle and the only top light was from the house cans. YUCK.

That said, it was the only large civic meeting space in town so it was used for a bunch of over lapping events. Having that DS area to have civic or school meetings, speeches, small one night band performances, and events with the main closed to hide whatever the school or other group had in progress was so priceless. Ours was a bit much but I wouldn't have wanted less that 10-12' to use. Some decent lighting positions would have been great but for I don't see any need for scenery rigging. Generally practice was full stage shows didn't set anything that wasn't movable downstage of the main so that we could have these one off events and meetings without other show stuff showing. Plus it just never looked right having action more than a foot or two downstage of the main.

That's my 2cents


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## StradivariusBone (Apr 20, 2017)

My gut says upstage, but the only thing that would push me in the other direction is along the lines of the aforementioned apron scenes in front of a main rag. We just did Music Man which calls for a number of those while we were flying and rolling new scenery. I would check out the distance between the main and the pit opening as ours is only 3'. Enough to do a quick scene change scene, but pretty tight quarters for Marianne to pass by Harold and Marce.


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## Van (Apr 20, 2017)

Upstage! but only if they follow through with the support... I cannot believe the number of schools I've seen built lately with a full-blown stage house and NO rigging. Oh sure, they install a front curtain and teaser, but they V.E. out all of the line sets!
I think your thoughts are correct too, that if the Architect really insists on having the space added to the apron then you've got to push for a second FOH catwalk , cheek positions and/or a HUGE tension grid area with all sorts of lighting positions. I can see a great advantage to having an over-large apron area. Heck they could use is as a 3/4 thrust stage.


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## venuetech (Apr 20, 2017)

Upstage, with a mid stage travler. I have about 12 ft in the apron but rarely put one off events in front of the grand. The screen is just DS of the mid. So that has become a driving factor, that and the cramped feel of the Grand when they start inviting teams and groups onstage. I tend to neglect lighting the ds lip of the apron, unless the production demands it. Icue movers cover that for one off events. Most scenic things are designed to fit US of the mid for other event flexability. Quickly hanging a banner ds of the Grand is nice, as is easy access to hanging choral mics.


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## sk8rsdad (Apr 20, 2017)

As a school, access is everything so if the decision is for DS then catwalk would be better than pipe grid. If there are going to be assemblies or lectures when a set is on stage, or if there are a lot of band or choir recitals it might be better to add the space DS of the proscenium.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Apr 20, 2017)

sk8rsdad said:


> As a school, access is everything so if the decision is for DS then catwalk would be better......



Amen brother.


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## TNasty (Apr 20, 2017)

sk8rsdad said:


> As a school, access is everything so if the decision is for DS then catwalk would be better than pipe grid.


You couldn't have said it better. This is just like the hoists that I mentioned earlier- great for putting up new equipment and using moving lights (no worries about bringing equipment through a crawlspace, or hanging something worth more than $1000 while you run the risk of dropping it 30-50 feet), but a pain to aim and focus anything (observe, lower, do some dance to appease your respective greater power while it's lowering, adjust fixture with only a slight clue of how your change is going to appear, raise, repeat). Thank god that the custodial staff have let me use the Genie lift as long as my supervisor's on site. Not to mention that our over-stage battens are dead hung, and that the classic cherry picker is scarier than climbing a rather thin utility pole during a hurricane.

Sadly, whoever planned the rigging didn't take into account that the vertical pipes on the walls were going right next to seats, too far away from the isle that stretches across the auditorium for the Genie to safely reach, and right over a slope. We're just lucky that I was able to borrow my dad's extending Werner ladder (which just hardly reached at its longest state, and had to have a chunk of a 2x4 under it to keep it level), I swear, everybody on the technical crew will lay a curse on anybody that touches those lights.

So yes, access is everything. Any apparatus or rigging that will grant easy(er) access to fixtures and mounted objects will be greatly appreciated by any school (and some professionals too).


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## JonCarter (Apr 20, 2017)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> If you do have 10-15 or more feet ds of curtain, does it seem reasonable that it should be possible to light it like the upstage space, similar front, top, side, and back lighting positions? For me the more recent practice of video everything demands the good backlight capability.
> 
> How necessary is the ability to rig - suspend - scenery and props over forestages? A pipe grid or a catwalk and gaps in the clouds under it or similar.



Yes, the fore stage should be as "lightable" as the area above the P/L, but it usually can't be due to the differences in available mounting positions. And I think in a decent looking house you can't have overhead capabilities equal to those available on-stage.



And as to space, no matter if you had the prosc. width x depth to cyc times 6 (equal to it SL & SR, 3 x it up stage), it wouldn't be enough. As the saying goes, "You-know-what expands to fill all available space."


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## np18358 (Apr 21, 2017)

I agree, US is better. No one has brought up difficulty of sidelighting dance DS of the proscenium. You either end up with no side light, and this huge apron that is unused, or you have to see the instruments.


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## AudJ (Apr 21, 2017)

I agree with upstage also, but I am curious about the final use of the room. If there are concert band/ chorus/ orchestras commonly performing there (without sound reinforcement), it is acoustically desireable to move them forward of a proscenium as much as possible. Of course there are other ways to handle acoustics while keeping the added depth upstage.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Apr 21, 2017)

Well, starting on four simultaneously, but it was a private HS that occasioned this specific post. I think a good shell will satisfy acoustics. Only 1 of 4 appear to have any interest in planning for strings. The rest is not so hard.

Convincing everyone to plan for shell tower storage is underway.


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## TheaterEd (Apr 21, 2017)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> Convincing everyone to plan for shell tower storage is underway.



OMG THIS! If there was a planned space in my last theater for the freaking acoustic towers I certainly don't know where it was. They were a freaking nightmare to work around. The worst part is, had they been 2' shorter, or the loading door 2' higher they could have very easily just gone across the hall to the shop....

Almost as bad as my current space where they made the doorways in the back hall too narrow to get the grand piano through, so we have to pull a door off it's hinges every time we need it for a concert (8-10 times per year)


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## Scarrgo (Apr 21, 2017)

Or a doorway that is 7'-11 1/2'' wide, so you cant roll an 8' platform from the shop to the stage, oh, and only 8' high...what a pain...


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## BillConnerFASTC (Apr 21, 2017)

Shop to stage, along with a loading dock/area to stage has a lot of issues. My undergraduate theatre had two 6-0 x 6-8 doors ans a short corridor between shop and stage and didn't seem to prevent us from doing anything. That said, unless shopp is specifically for an active wagon use, I tend to fall in the 10 X 12 to 12 X 14 range for shop to stage. The problem becomes if noise isolation is a requirement - simultaneous use of stage and shop - and then that size gets really expensive very quickly. I can do an 8-0 x 8-0 door with good attenuation for not much more than 6-0 x 6-8 standard double doors. Loading docks into building - 8-0 X 12-0 should be big enough for anything off a truck, as long as the path is more or less straight. My basic criteria is that you be able to get a car on stage and a 21' piece of pipe. That covers most challenges.

And how do you weigh a bigger door versus a couple of linesets or another dozen lights, the kind of choices I influence every day. Which is why I ask here.

What's hard is when I'm brought in and there is a plan with the auditorium and shop plunk in the middle if a huge building and completely land locked. Then not only is it doors, but getting major parts of the building redesigned.


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## Scarrgo (Apr 21, 2017)

10x12 even a 10x14 shop to stage doors would be great, and also please have at least 10'-12' ceilings as well as all HVAC and lighting above said 10'-12' height, when they added on a nice larger shop, lights and ceiling were nice and hi, than the put all the HVAC at 8', and I asked and asked for a ceiling exhaust fan, but never got it...at least I got a larger shop....

I would think being brought in after the major parts of a plan would be very frustrating, I can only guess some of the horror stories you must have....

Sean...


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## TheaterEd (Apr 21, 2017)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> And how do you weigh a bigger door versus a couple of linesets or another dozen lights, the kind of choices I influence every day. Which is why I ask here.



I tend to lean toward infrastructure that I can't change later. So if I can get the right sized door but it's going to cost me 5 par cans. I'll take it. I can always expand my inventory, but until we buy a more narrow grand piano (not in the foreseeable future) what should be a 5 minute unskilled task is a two man, and half an hour ordeal.

Shoot, I'd give up my clear com system if it meant that the space was designed with a ramp from the audience to the stage. The fact that my wheelchair bound performers have to enter from the back while their classmates walk up through the aisles really gets under my skin.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Apr 21, 2017)

TheaterEd said:


> I tend to lean toward infrastructure that I can't change later. So if I can get the right sized door but it's going to cost me 5 par cans. I'll take it. I can always expand my inventory, but until we buy a more narrow grand piano (not in the foreseeable future) what should be a 5 minute unskilled task is a two man, and half an hour ordeal.
> 
> Shoot, I'd give up my clear com system if it meant that the space was designed with a ramp from the audience to the stage. The fact that my wheelchair bound performers have to enter from the back while their classmates walk up through the aisles really gets under my skin.



Yeah but a 6' door lets you get most grand pianos through - maybe not every bosendorfer. The problem with high schools in the US is that when they build, they have money. After that, until the next bond issue in 10-25 years, zippo. It is unfortunately a now or never situation. I've helped with replacement schools where the one being torn down had dimmer rack space for "future" modules, never added. With few exceptions I have found spending any money for preparing future equipment of almost no value. I don't think that's good necessarily but I'm not going to change the way school facilities are funded.

An accessible route from audience to stage is mandated in US by ADA and building codes. Your facility is apparently not compliant with the laws of the land.

PS - Just to clarify - you only have to have an accessible route if there is otherwise a route. Stairs from row 1 to stage are not required but if provided, someone in a wheelchair must be able to do same without leaving the auditorium.


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## Ford (Apr 21, 2017)

Hi Bill,
Jumping back to the beginning of the conversation....
For a Highschool, that may have a theatrical show being built upstage, and a choir rehearsal, or assembly taking place DS of the main, an apron depth of 10-12' or be nice (in my opinion). Any less, and the apron is less usable as it's own space. So the theatre is less versatile. If you go much larger, then it becomes either wasted space, or difficult to control the lighting for (you may have issues with sound support, as well).
Again, this is just my opinion.

When it comes to lighting positions for a greater than 8' deep apron, you will likely sacrifice the ability to do effective side lighting there. However, that does not mean that you won't be able to light it well enough for most applications. 
At Cornell, we ended up hanging a fixed electric which was permanently suspended just inside the proscenium arch. This was used primarily for top lighting (wash lights, and gobo washes) for the apron, and worked very well for that application. Between that pipe, and our Box-Booms, we were able to effectively light the apron without using the catwalks (so it was neither flatly lit, nor did performers at the DS edge have "raccoon eyes.") It has the disadvantage of being directly in sight lines (explain that this pipe will be visible 100% of the time), and being only accessible by a lift (possibly an issue for a high school).

Again, your mileage may vary, but you may be able to find a happy medium with your architect friend.


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## TNasty (Apr 21, 2017)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> The problem with high schools in the US is that when they build, they have money. After that, until the next bond issue in 10-25 years, zippo. It is unfortunately a now or never situation. I've helped with replacement schools where the one being torn down had dimmer rack space for "future" modules, never added. With few exceptions I have found spending any money for preparing future equipment of almost no value. I don't think that's good necessarily but I'm not going to change the way school facilities are funded.


Amen to that.
One night when I was up really late (you know, where you start to think on a different level- your true genius comes out), a bunch of the choices the contractors made for my school's auditorium didn't make any sense started to all come together.
First off, who the hell uses NEMA twist lock connectors (sorry if I offended any of my fellow twist lock users)? I had read a while before about how there's really no way to tell a dimmed 90v Powercon from a static 120v Powercon (being constructed in the late 2000's, probably like 2008, powercon was probably all the rave among electricians and designers alike), and stagepin has its issues... So, the contractors must have chosen the twist lock connector for that reason. A new high school student certainly runs the chance of mixing up circuits.
The other thing is the wide assortment of relay'd 120v sockets on all the rigging. All three house hoists have their own relay circuit, each batten over the stage has its own relay circuit. This kinda made sense, other than the fact that the only 120v sockets on the battens are all the way stage left (literally four or five inches from the end of the big metal electrical conduit box directly attached to the batten). I had then realized that the reason for this was that the regular socket was used to allow for control over conventional devices (such as a Wal Mart blacklight), but more importantly, so that it could be turned into a Powercon run with an adapter (thus justifying the placement of the outlets on the battens).
Then each hoist and batten has a DMX output on it, along with outputs on the downstage-most leg walls on either side of the stage (five pin, on universe two. yes, we have a honking big opto-splitter that I'd love to see, but I only have general ideas as to where it is- its got at least 10 outputs!). At this point, I had realized that the entire auditorium was designed with an absurd level of thought for the addition of intelligent and LED lighting for down the road. Just don't mind the fact that we got a "new" light console when the addition was built (an Express 48/96- wonderful for moving lights. Just wonderful. Lets not forget to mention that it backs up and reads data with floppy disks- cutting edge 2008 tech right here, my friends).
Sadly, the only intelligent lighting we have consists of two Technobeam-i's (that were donated to us), and four generic LED cans (which don't even belong to us, one of our frequent designers just leaves them there for us).

So yes, very rarely do schools/school districts provide substantial (or even adequate at times) funding for theatre or technical theatre departments (despite the school complaining about only having 1 1/2 wireless mics whenever it holds an event run by guidance). If only I could have a few thousand dollars *poof* into my bank account at my will- that place would be packed to the brim with cutting edge lighting technology (and get a new console).
I still can't quite comprehend why they put the backstage equipment rack directly 3 feet in front of the fire hose. Luckily the inspectors have learned to go lightly on that issue as to not upset administration, and to not forego the penalty as to protect their job.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Apr 21, 2017)

I'm sure I have misses in planning. I had the pleasure of being the consultant on one of my own projects 20 years before. I could not for the life of me understand the remote video and minimal DMX I had specified 20 years previous. That part of the technology changes and 1990 remote video quickly became archaic. But does that mean don't put stuff in that will likely change?


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## BillConnerFASTC (Apr 21, 2017)

Ford said:


> Hi Bill,
> Jumping back to the beginning of the conversation....
> For a Highschool, that may have a theatrical show being built upstage, and a choir rehearsal, or assembly taking place DS of the main, an apron depth of 10-12' or be nice (in my opinion). Any less, and the apron is less usable as it's own space. So the theatre is less versatile. If you go much larger, then it becomes either wasted space, or difficult to control the lighting for (you may have issues with sound support, as well).
> Again, this is just my opinion.
> ...


So little forestage and you have to move stuff for the events that could be on a deep forestage, or derp forestage at the cost of less lighting and scenery options closer to the audience. What I find difficult is that drama and dance events suffer the most by lack of proximity but are the events least well accommodated on a deep forestage. 

Why not just move the main curtain upstage?


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## Scarrgo (Apr 21, 2017)

No, at the time that might have been cutting edge, and I hope that today more thought of the future is being put in to theaters...

we all understand that yesterday it was amazing, today its normal, and tomorrow its archaic....

there are times that nothing seems to change, than things seem to change every day

and I cant wait to see what the day after next will bring us...

Sean...


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## TNasty (Apr 21, 2017)

Scarrgo said:


> No, at the time that might have been cutting edge, and I hope that today more thought of the future is being put in to theaters...
> 
> we all understand that yesterday it was amazing, today its normal, and tomorrow its archaic....
> 
> ...


Luckily the standard 120v outlet is here to stay. At least for now...

I'd love to see what the two pins "reserved for future use" will get used for on DMX. It'll be interesting to see how it affects your DMX runs with certain fixtures, and find out who got the full five wire treatment and the three wire punishment during construction. I know my school got the three wire "money saving option" after I had to repair a DMX wall plate where the connector of a cable would run the risk of getting caught on the curtain and over time break the plate out of the wall and cause loads of issues.

I should get a factory in China to make a recessed "low profile" wall plate for professional connections.


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## RickR (Apr 21, 2017)

I too chime in on more space upstage.

My layman's explanation is that the stage gets cut into 2 parts. A thrust can be a great thing, but HS productions have a hard time blending the very different needs of the thrust and the main stage. On my kids school stage, you go from audience in front to nearly surrounded, by walking about 15 feet.


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## Les (Apr 21, 2017)

My theatre has a large thrust in front of the grand drape. So much so, that productions rarely get blocked much further back than the midstage traveler. Our trim height above the stage is only around 16' with about 15' upstage of the proscenium and another ~20' in front of the drape. We have adapted, but I would have preferred a more traditional proscenuim configuration. This is a 1949 renovated movie house, and when it was planned/renovated in 1995, there were some who lobbied for the thrust for music performances — those which rarely actually happen in this space.

This does give the space a more intimate vibe, but it can get a little interesting. 
For lighting, we use lots of front and sidelight (those in the picture have since been replaced by LEDs) and barely any toplight. Since the trim height is rather low and productions rarely block heavily under the battens, eating up 10-20 fresnels for that use just isn't very efficient. Sometimes we will supplement some instruments for when it is needed.

As you can see, we have a pipe grid above the thrust. It was supposed to be on a motorized winch, but we got a cranky old Genie instead. I do a lot of specials and moving lights from that location. Direct toplight (or even backlight) is more rare unless it's for a certain effect, since the glare from instruments even with tophats is noticeable even from the back row as every seat in the house can see up in to this grid. The photographer in this case is standing near the back row of the 299-seat house.

Notice that each side of the stage has steps leading up. There are ~7' plugs installed since the original design called for an even more pronounced thrust - apparently to accommodate a pit orchestra since there are no seats in those locations, and there never have been (well, not since it was a movie theatre and the screen was about where the cyc is now. We traditionally put orchestras either in the wings, on stage/behind a scrim, or in the shop which is behind the cyc and separated by 16' sliding fire doors which remain open in those cases.


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## Wheezy (Apr 23, 2017)

Les' mention of rarity of US placement jolts my pet peeve with our stage. That is, more US space is useless if the sight lines from the sides of the house are blocked by the proscenium arch or tormentors.


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## urban79 (Apr 23, 2017)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> Yeah but a 6' door lets you get most grand pianos through - maybe not every bosendorfer. The problem with high schools in the US is that when they build, they have money. After that, until the next bond issue in 10-25 years, zippo. It is unfortunately a now or never situation. I've helped with replacement schools where the one being torn down had dimmer rack space for "future" modules, never added. With few exceptions I have found spending any money for preparing future equipment of almost no value. I don't think that's good necessarily but I'm not going to change the way school facilities are funded.
> 
> An accessible route from audience to stage is mandated in US by ADA and building codes. Your facility is apparently not compliant with the laws of the land.
> 
> PS - Just to clarify - you only have to have an accessible route if there is otherwise a route. Stairs from row 1 to stage are not required but if provided, someone in a wheelchair must be able to do same without leaving the auditorium.



Bill, I'm curious about this one - has this always been the case or is it a new interpretation? Our auditorium was redone about 7 years ago and there is no accommodation for this (it is also the only performing space in the district that has an accessible stage at all, but that's another can o' worms)

Chris


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## BillConnerFASTC (Apr 24, 2017)

urban79 said:


> Bill, I'm curious about this one - has this always been the case or is it a new interpretation? Our auditorium was redone about 7 years ago and there is no accommodation for this (it is also the only performing space in the district that has an accessible stage at all, but that's another can o' worms)
> 
> Chris


Chris - re stage - ADA - accessibility, I think very early 2000s - like 2002?. I'd have to go through paper files to be sure. If a route from auditorium to stage there has to be an accessible route. Ditto orchestra pits - has more than doubled the cost of simple pits.

Both in building code and ADA regs.

Lots of buildings are designed and constructed that don't meet applicable codes and standards - law - for many items besides ADA.


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## urban79 (Apr 25, 2017)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> Chris - re stage - ADA - accessibility, I think very early 2000s - like 2002?. I'd have to go through paper files to be sure. If a route from auditorium to stage there has to be an accessible route. Ditto orchestra pits - has more than doubled the cost of simple pits.
> 
> Both in building code and ADA regs.
> 
> Lots of buildings are designed and constructed that don't meet applicable codes and standards - law - for many items besides ADA.



Thanks Bill - I had a feeling that might be the case - so much fun to work around those types of issues!


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## AudJ (Apr 26, 2017)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> Lots of buildings are designed and constructed that don't meet applicable codes and standards - law - for many items besides ADA.



Is there a reasonable fix for this, without major structural changes? I can't see it being possible in my space without rendering the floor-level pit useless. Even a small accessible lift would take up enough space that our chorus risers wouldn't fit, in addition to the fact that it would obstruct view for many.

We have traditionally used the ADA ramp in the adjoining corridor for this purpose.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Apr 26, 2017)

Major structural changes is hard to define but without seeing it or at least plan and section, no idea what is possible.

First question would be is the first row/pit served by an accessible route. 

Your best option may be a portable. Check here: http://ascension-lift.com. These cost more than the least expensive lifts designed for install, but do things that those don't. One of the biggest design problems with conventional lifts is the tower and rails that always stay high, 42" above stage. When I design with these in mind, I try to design in a storage niche, under the stage usually.


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## egilson1 (Apr 26, 2017)

My issue with a large thrust is getting actors to walk down stage of the main when it's open. For some reason they refuse to break the plaster line, which keeps them further away from the audience. I'd rather have a shallow thrust, and a second traveler US of the main for when I needed additional depth down stage.


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## MNicolai (Apr 26, 2017)

egilson1 said:


> My issue with a large thrust is getting actors to walk down stage of the main when it's open. For some reason they refuse to break the plaster line, which keeps them further away from the audience. I'd rather have a shallow thrust, and a second traveler US of the main for when I needed additional depth down stage.



Easy fix. Give your ASM's a cattle prod.


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## JJBerman (Apr 26, 2017)

As been said already, I want enough space in front of the main curtain to be able to do community forums and school presentations that require only a speaker and possibly projection screen.
I also have school events where they will hand out senior awards/scholarships and will have the seniors line up on stage in groups for applause from the audience.
As seen on the attached photo, I like the amount of space I have. The only major issue I have is there is no entertainment downlight. In future renovations I'm working to have replacing the architectural cans in the cloud with a motorized lineset with power and DMX.
It is 50' across with 8'ish outside to 15'ish at center.


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## Aaron Clarke (Apr 26, 2017)

JJBerman said:


> As been said already, I want enough space in front of the main curtain to be able to do community forums and school presentations that require only a speaker and possibly projection screen.
> I also have school events where they will hand out senior awards/scholarships and will have the seniors line up on stage in groups for applause from the audience.



I would also add its going to depend on how the school staffs and manages the theatre. Will there be a staff member or student there anytime it used that would know how to close the mid stage, provide decent light and so forth. Where I went to school most of these civic or school events were held with no tech on site. Janitor would unlock the theatre and leave to the other end of the building. It would just be house lights and people who knew nothing about even closing a main curtain.

If there is a full time tech/staff that can set the stage and lighting, drop a mid-stage main and so forth every time the space is used then I would say take it upstage. But if it's ran as a "your on your own" outside of larger productions, you have to make it as easy as it can be and keep the non-trained away from the expensive stage equipment.


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## gafftaper (May 6, 2017)

JChenault said:


> For my two cents, it is extremely useful to have enough of an apron to do an in one scene while the scenery is shifting upstage. ( without having to rig a show curtain ).
> When we did our renovation we ended up with an apron of between 6 and 8 feet ( curved stage). 25 feet from plaster line to cyc and it is very tight as we have no fly system and typically use wagons.
> 
> If it were me I would resist more apron than this.
> ...



I'm late on this but wanted to comment. My theater has the world's poorest excuse for a "pit" so small and only 8" lower than the first row in the house. It's only been used once and I doubt will ever be used again. As a result we always use the apron with the pit cover on. At the edge of the proscenium my apron is 6' deep, it curves out to become 13' deep at center. I find this just about perfect. With the projection screen located just behind the grand, we have enough depth to do a panel discussion with people at tables which are slightly angled. Or we sit a group of guest speakers on stage in a curved chair arc where they can see the person speaking and the projection screen. Although during shows, yes the apron is only used for a quick transition scenes while we change the set upstage, but there are MANY other things we do at the school. In fact there is probably an equal number of events with the grand closed the whole time as ones that use the full stage. It would be very difficult to pull off many of the things we do, if the apron was only 6' deep. 

On the flip side, it seems like EVERY renter wants rear projection on an upstage screen. I simply don't have enough stage depth to pull that off given the current technology available and the laws of physics. So, a little more depth would be nice.


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## BillConnerFASTC (May 6, 2017)

I still not understanding why having 12' in front of a curtain - that is maybe 6-7' us of plaster line - is any different than pushing it all in front of plaster line and main curtain. It seems like so much space in front of main that is hard or difficult to light and have scenery on is a negative. But then I'm all about the plays.


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## RickR (May 6, 2017)

I think it has to do with a feeling of being 'out there', up close and intimate with the audience. Note that this is a feeling that may not be based on actual distances or other measurable facts.


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## Les (May 7, 2017)

RickR said:


> I think it has to do with a feeling of being 'out there', up close and intimate with the audience. Note that this is a feeling that may not be based on actual distances or other measurable facts.



I certainly agree with this thought process. Our space has been praised and criticized for its intimacy. In most cases, it does help pull the audience in to the action, where the set exists out on the thrust as well as behind the main. In other cases, it can be a pain to block and to light. Luckily, we have pretty good lighting positions — you just have to be mindful that standard McCandless doesn't really translate without a few adjustments. I usually do a warm/cool front light plot with LED sides which I either for color and toning. A grid above our thrust is great for specials, moving lights, or upstage/platform areas.


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## SteveB (May 7, 2017)

Having spent decades in a space with a very deep (29' from main curtain) pit/apron, my thought is to not do this configuration as a standard design. Having a large orchestral pit is useful, it just becomes a huge nuisance as a playing area unless the area above is considered part of the technical stage space with appropriate rigging and lighting.

Ours isn't, it's a solid acoustical ceiling essentially. Thus my back light is a shallow angle 1 Electric. No overhead lighting at all and if an event chooses to use the pit at same level as stage, PLUS play the stage, it's a huge problem for lighting. 

As well, we frequently deal with artists that want the use of the main curtain, yet also want to play the pit and cannot comprehend that the main curtain, being so far upstage, does not function as a main. What they really want is a main DS at the pit edge. They cannot understand how you can "reveal" with a blackout and lighting. 

So I'd kill for a stage with a 7-8 ft. apron only, then everything up onstage behind the main.


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## gafftaper (May 8, 2017)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> I still not understanding why having 12' in front of a curtain - that is maybe 6-7' us of plaster line - is any different than pushing it all in front of plaster line and main curtain. It seems like so much space in front of main that is hard or difficult to light and have scenery on is a negative. But then I'm all about the plays.


I have about 7 plays or musicals a year on my stage depending on the number of feeder schools that come in. I have at least double that in talent shows, parent nights with panel discussions, awards and graduations, poetry slams with a DJ on stage (believe it or not), and class presentations of various types. All of these make extensive use of the apron. There have been many times that I have wished it was 13' deep all the way across, rather than tapered in the corners. 

Yes you can't put a set out there. Yes it means exposed lights (nobody ever complains about the lights). But we use it ALL the time. And when it is play time we use it a lot to cover set changes.


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## techieman33 (May 8, 2017)

Plays were only a small part of what my high school theater was used for. Probably 3/4 of the events in the theater were in front of the main curtain. The 10-12 feet was plenty of space for a speaker, awards ceremony, or small choir. Also our sets were usually built on the stage since most of our already small shop space was used to store standard flats and platforms. So being able to close the main curtain and easily cover all that ugliness up was great.


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