# Light bars/pipe



## avery (Mar 13, 2012)

Hi everyone,

First off I wasn't sure if this belongs in the rigging forum, but since it deals directly with lighting I'm posting it here. Feel free to move it if needed.

I'm working at a theater right now that seats about 1500. I'm trying to do as much as I can to improve the lighting (which hasn't been touched in probably 10 years), in the short amount of time I have before shows pick up.

We're working on a small budget as usual, and I need a few more options for hanging lights. We've got plenty of space and the proper mounting positions, but I don't have much of a budget. I'm used to working road gigs so I don't know a lot about permanent install.

So my question is this (mainly to you theater and perm install guys and gals). Where do you get your pipes/light bars? I've had a lot of people just tell me to head down to the local plumbing store and pick up some pipe, but I know there has to be way more to it than that. I basically need to create two mounting positions on side walls for lekos. So I'll need an elbow joint or bracket of some sort.

I'm really used to being able to order what I need but I don't have that luxury right now so I need to rig this up myself (I'll have assistance in the actual work).

So is there someone that I should be ordering lighting pipe from, or do I really just need to be looking a metal plumbing pipe? Also how do I find the right brackets and joints that will hold up for lighting applications?

Thanks


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## Clifford (Mar 13, 2012)

Find somewhere that sells 1 1/2" or 2" schedule 60 steel pipe in the lengths you need. Then, once they are properly installed, pick up some side arms to hang the lights. Easy as.

However, since you said you don't know a lot about permanent installs, you should consult with someone who does to ensure the installation is safe and conforms to any relevant codes.


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## ship (Mar 13, 2012)

While historically lighting gear has been 2" than 1.1/2" plumbing pipe and fittings, these days there is actual load rated batten pipe and means of attachment that is load rated for the use. Small budget - doing it properly will not be helping you. Others on the foum will probably have better specifications and details.


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## ship (Mar 13, 2012)

Clifford said:


> Find somewhere that sells 1 1/2" or 2" schedule 60 steel pipe in the lengths you need. Then, once they are properly installed, pick up some side arms to hang the lights. Easy as.
> 
> However, since you said you don't know a lot about permanent installs, you should consult with someone who does to ensure the installation is safe and conforms to any relevant codes.



Is sch. 60 new? Heard of Sch. 80 and 40 but not 60. I like Sch. 80 pipe for side arms but be for warned that this pipe and even sch. 40 pipe last I tried does not work with ETC Clamps. Works with Altman and I suspect L&E, Times Square and other clamp makers.


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## Clifford (Mar 13, 2012)

I seem to remember we have quite a bit of 60 in one of our schools, but it was all made in the Philippines 25 years ago, so who knows? I could be wrong, it happens. ANSI does list a schedule 60 but only for much larger pipe diameters (>4 inches).


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## Les (Mar 13, 2012)

If you're building stationary sidelight positions, you probably do just need regular old pipe. 1.5" screw pipe with elbows and flanges from the hardware/big box/plumbing supply are great for this. The biggest concern will be anchoring it properly.


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## derekleffew (Mar 13, 2012)

ship said:


> Is sch. 60 new? Heard of Sch. 80 and 40 but not 60. ...


The schedule 60 classification is *not* new, *nor* does it apply to NPS 1 1/2". 

More important than the pipe and elbows, nipples, and flanges, is how they attach to the building's structure, and whether the system can support the load of the fixtures plus a 250# electrician hanging/standing from the lighting position.


http://wwhslamplighters.tripod.com/theater/lighting.htm


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## gafftapegreenia (Mar 13, 2012)

derekleffew said:


> More important than the pipe and elbows, nipples, and flanges, is how they attach to the buildings structure, and whether the system can support the load of the fixtures plus a 250# electrician hanging/standing from the lighting position.



Hey now I've lost some weight!


But more seriously, what is the material you are going to be mounting to? As others have said, that is the crucial point.


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## avery (Mar 13, 2012)

Thanks Les and everyone. I think this is the way I need to go. The side positions won't be hung above any seating positions, so while I'm going to work with maintence to make sure everything is installed properly, I can't justify getting the best of the best or the project will have to be scrapped.

Thanks again, this has really helped.


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## ship (Mar 13, 2012)

Be careful of working with maintence to secure anything. They are neither engineers or trained for such loads of pipe length plus like 25# per fixture with cable load 18" on center for the length of the pipe plus that 250# electrician doing something they should not be doing. Real thought should be where and how that pipe is mounted. Audience next to it or not, this is safety of even that idiot climbing the torm.

Sorry Less, especially for the floor flange, not recommended.


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## avery (Mar 14, 2012)

Thanks again everyone.

Another question. Once I have the pipe, what is the best way to connect multiple sections to form a longer run?

I know what works with plumbing pipe, but I doubt that will work sufficiently when it comes load baring.


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## derekleffew (Mar 14, 2012)

avery said:


> Another question. Once I have the pipe, what is the best way to connect multiple sections to form a longer run?


Pipe normally comes up to 21' in length. If you need a continuous run longer, see http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/scenery-props-rigging/22901-methods-splicing-pipe.html .


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## avery (Mar 14, 2012)

Thanks for the link. This is what I needed.

The reason I ask is I plan on getting smaller sections to make it easier to travel and move around if need be. 

I was thinking about three 10' sections for a mid stage bar.


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## shiben (Mar 14, 2012)

avery said:


> Thanks for the link. This is what I needed.
> 
> The reason I ask is I plan on getting smaller sections to make it easier to travel and move around if need be.
> 
> I was thinking about three 10' sections for a mid stage bar.



I was under the impression that you were making some torms or something... I would imagine a batten would be a bit easier, although I still think you would want to do that with 2x15' pipes, just to have less joints.


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## Les (Mar 14, 2012)

ship said:


> Sorry Less, especially for the floor flange, not recommended.



Out of curiosity, what would be recommended for such an application? I ask this because I see them used in this way a lot, including what appears to be a similar method in the picture derekleffew supplied. I know that just because it is common doesn't mean it's right. Just looking for a little enlightenment.


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## len (Mar 14, 2012)

The longest I've seen in the big box stores is 10'. Maybe you'll be lucky, but if you need anything longer than that, you'll have to contact a plumbing supply. If you buy enough at once, they'll likely deliver it for free. Wear gloves. It's usually pretty dirty. I recommend standing it upright or on a good angle for a few days before cutting or working with it. There's usually grease and stuff inside. The typical size is 1.5" INSIDE diameter. It's ALMOST 2" outside diameter, so typical cheeseboros don't usually work, you need c-clamps. 
As has been mentioned, anything you're installing permanently needs to be looked at by an engineer who knows what they're doing.


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## ship (Mar 14, 2012)

Les said:


> Out of curiosity, what would be recommended for such an application? I ask this because I see them used in this way a lot, including what appears to be a similar method in the picture derekleffew supplied. I know that just because it is common doesn't mean it's right. Just looking for a little enlightenment.



Over the years I have read many articles and posts about Sch.40 pipe and it's fittings. Cannot cite an article specifically but I do remember that the floor flange for the sch.40 pipe was very much frouned upon over all other fittings. Think about the depth of screw thread on it and the fitting (China) itself. While I have never seen one fail, talking about X amount of cable and fixture load, plus that 250# guy on it as an idiot but tech person.

Construction of such fittings is just crap cast steel and dependant on the threaded pipe into them and the person screwing the pipe into them - there might not be a lot of threads worth of steel holding that pipe into the floor flange sufficient. Easy enough to imagine why such flanges given their stout amount of tapered threads might be a problem one can assume. Have I seen one fail before... no, is it very possible given time one can? Yes! Perhaps in just plain screw thread it gets ovaled out and is now less tight or of screw class of fitting after time.

For some applicatins I use such floor flanges, I specify and use much higher pressure loaded fittings in being a harder grade of forged material. Think about the materials of a Sch. 40 floor flange, the amount and depth of threads and thickness of cast counter sunk mounting means. Grade 2 mostly for any say 1/4" flat head screws so as to mount it. Not really stuff I would want to rig under.


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## ship (Mar 14, 2012)

Les said:


>



Note the photo of the floor flange. Zat look like what one might find at a hardware store or are they a bit more slim lined? This much less what in years past was installed in being thicker in flange size but still not sufficient?

Waiting a rigging expert to chime in, and or someone contacting Bill Sapsis on this, but I believe I am absolutely correct especially on this question. Do not use store bought type floor flanges.

Old school in two of my closest friends in the industry - you are wrong but a forum for all of us to learn from.


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## MPowers (Mar 14, 2012)

There is so much miss-information in this thread, I don't know where to begin. In fact, I won't begin. It's late, I'm under the weather and very tired. I'll post at length Friday nite or Saturday afternoon.


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## MPowers (Mar 17, 2012)

First point: Pipe is Pipe. Standard Theatrical/entertainment industry usage is 1 1/2" ID, schedule 40, black iron pipe. It does not have to be pressure rated. Schedule 60 is rare and costs twice the price. Standard usage is schedule 40 with schedule 80 as a occasional substitute. For what it's worth, schedule 80 only supports 8 pounds per foot more than schedule 40 over a 10' span. Generally, the big box stores sell in 10' lengths. for full lengths of pipe at 21' call a plumbing or industrial supply source. 

Pipe flanges: They do what they are intended to do very well. They are very strong in a compression direction, Very strong in a sheer direction, more than strong in a tension direction. Very weak in a torque situation. 

What that means is that a floor flange will handle a lot of load when used as a wall mount for a torm pipe. In this configuration, the method of anchoring is far more critical than the piece of hardware. 

I strongly prefer Kee Klamp fittings for this application as they encompass the pipe for a larger dimension. 

I'll post more later.


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## ship (Mar 18, 2012)

MPowers said:


> What that means is that a floor flange will handle a lot of load when used as a wall mount for a torm pipe. In this configuration, the method of anchoring is far more critical than the piece of hardware.
> 
> I strongly prefer Kee Klamp fittings for this application as they encompass the pipe for a larger dimension.
> 
> I'll post more later.



I respect your authorty and study on this subject but disagree in both of your choices for fitting.


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## dkeefer (Jul 26, 2012)

We did a test in college with the engineering dept. We could never break the fitting, the mounting always broken first. I think we got it past 6 tons before the mounting broke loose the last time. As people said, it is all in the mounting structure and fasteners.


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## Cooperhodges (Jul 28, 2012)

I had a problem similar to yours as well. I do lighting for a christian campus, and a majority of the youth-based concerts/programs take place in a small chapel in the main church that seats around 300-400. This room has limited power and mounting. In the rear of the chapel, there is a P.A. booth, above that a loft where we keep odds and ends. In order to properly mount lights for programs, we built a wall around this loft and mounted iron pipe on it. We primed it, painted it, and tested it. We hung around 15-20 lights on this railing we made (probably 30 ft length), ranging from Source Four ParNels to zooms and 10 degree Par's. As you know, these lights are quite heavy, and the railing had no problem holding up probably 200-300 pounds of lights, along with taking the beating we gave it (on the other side of the wall is a 20-30 ft. drop) and realized it wasn't going anywhere. I think you'll be fine with mounting thick iron pipe. I would get someone licensed to inspect it and give it the o.k. before permanently mounting anything on it however.


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