# Flying a Chandeleir



## Foxinabox10 (Aug 24, 2004)

Our theater has never flown anything before, so we have nothing in place to fly something. We have an old chandeleir that we have rewired with a plug on the end. How do we fly it? What all do we need and how do we set it up?


----------



## JP12687 (Aug 24, 2004)

Do you have easy access to the ceiling above the stage where you want to hang it? Could yuo easily hang a pulley in that position? how heavy is it?


----------



## Foxinabox10 (Aug 24, 2004)

Ceiling access is probably possible. We might have to get the maintenence department to come down with the big lift.


----------



## JP12687 (Aug 24, 2004)

ok then you need to anchor in a pulley right above where you want to fly it in. You are then goign to need a pulley where you want the end to be to direct the rope down, then you have to construct a guide and anchor the lines into the guide. I don't recoment rigging unless you have some one experienced supervising


----------



## Radman (Aug 24, 2004)

It all depends on how much you are willing to spend...


----------



## Foxinabox10 (Aug 24, 2004)

What are the options for cost?


----------



## Radman (Aug 24, 2004)

Do it the easy way like JP12687 said, or get a rigger to rig up a fly system, with a few options scattered in the middle. Pulley idea:$100 plus or minus $100 Fly system: P.O.A. (probably over alot) (I hate it when that is the only price listed in catalogs.)


----------



## zac850 (Aug 24, 2004)

The cheep way: as JP12687 said, just get to the roof, and on the grid (or somewhere else thats sturdy) just chain or somehow attach a pulley. Then you need a cable and an extension cord. A few more pulleys along the roof to hold the cables, and then one more to bring them down to wherever you want backstage. 

This is assuming that the chandelier is light enough for one to two people to lift easily.

If its not easy enough to lift with one or two people, you can use some more pulleys to create a complex pulley system, making it easier to pull (but someone else can tell you how to do that).

Total cost would be somewhere between $10 and $50, depending on where you get the pulleys, what cable you use, and other things like that.

Or, if you wanted to spend more money you can build a new theater with fly space. That would be about 1000x as expensive, but it would be much more fun ;-)


----------



## Foxinabox10 (Aug 24, 2004)

Although a fly space would be amazing, it doesn't look like that will happen anytime soon. What type of wire should I use?


----------



## JahJahwarrior (Aug 24, 2004)

my school (tiny, private Christian school. 23 drama students...and yes, whlie a faithful techie, I am an actor as well, thought for this play I will probably be an understudy and am VERY likely the TD) is doing the play "The Importance of Being Earnest" by Oscar Wilde this fall, and we would like to have a chandelier flying for the mansion scenes. We will probably build something like that pulley system...depending on the weight of the chandelier we might use more pulleys up top, because we will need to lift and lower it during the performance (nothing looks as out of place as a chandelier in a garden!) and we don't want it to be hard work for whoever is doing that. And, as TD, I will get to train 4 people (one of them knows a little about sound) about sound and lights, and none of them want to learn much.....I'll do my best!


----------



## JP12687 (Aug 24, 2004)

Yea i just finished doing Oklahoma at a local community theatre and the director had this vision of "rising corn from the ground" we after drilling 12 nice wholes in the floor and filling each hole with PVC pipes i had the task of rigging 12 "pieces of corn" 

it involved me bringing up 20ft of pipe and cross laying it on the roof supports and then dropping down a weighted tie line to line it up with the whole then anchoring each pulley. 

I then ran the lines over where i needed them and had 6 double pulleys and lined them all up and dropped them down. 

I then constrocted a guide (a pentagon shaped piece of wood with a pin hindge on each side) I them dropped down 2 lines from the grid and anchored them into the ground. I then proceeded to run the hindges on the guide onto those 2 lines(i ran it through where the pin would normally be and it held against the line so it went up and down straight) i then attached each corn linen to holes i drilled at the top of the guide wood. 

I then attached an I screw to the bottom of the guide and tied a rope to it.

and BAM you have your self flying corn


----------



## Foxinabox10 (Aug 24, 2004)

So that you don't notice that this chandeleir is going up into the ceiling when it is down, I plan on taking a piece of board 6x6" and mounting the light on it essentially as if the board was the ceiling. Would a simple Eye-Bolt screwed into the board be enough support for the light, which is 30 lb. max?


----------



## digitaltec (Aug 24, 2004)

What the heck are you doing, The Phantom of the Opera?


----------



## Foxinabox10 (Aug 24, 2004)

I was just wondering in general, because I just changed the chandeleir in my house and it is now part of our props.


----------



## JahJahwarrior (Aug 24, 2004)

wow...explaijthe whole board/ceiling thing!! 

The best sense I make of it is this: you want the chandelier to look like it is hanging just beneath a ceiling, so you are going to paint a square board, mount the light hanging just below that, then run cables from the four corners of the board to pulleys?? If that is what you want to do, which sounds kinda wierd, most chandeliers are hanging from big roofs' anyways. I don't kow what your stage looks like....I wish I had a picture of ours, but I would assume that there is a lower appearing roof thing, but on the stage there is a higher ceiling than there appears to be, becaause from the audience it looks like, like....like it's lower?? man I suck at describing this!! basically, the audience cannot see the ceiling of the stage. like, here is the stage ceing, - Then, there is a wall in front of that, like -| and they see the ceiling as being at the height of the bottom of the |, when in fact it is higher?? Anyhow, most chandeliers are hung in entryways or things, where the roof is really high, so if they cannot see the ceiling it is mounted to, don't worry about that! 

sorry to confuse you if I did!


----------



## Foxinabox10 (Aug 24, 2004)

Our audience sits below our stage and I want to make the chain end at a clean line, and the circle that surrounds where the chain ends is where the board is. I want to put one eye bolt in the top of the board and tie the line to that for the one pulley.


----------



## sallyj (Aug 25, 2004)

The board thing sounds a little strange, but I know what you are trying to do. As long as you use an eye bolt and not just an eye screw, you should be okay.
SJM


----------



## Foxinabox10 (Aug 25, 2004)

Thanks for that tip, I was actually saying Eye Bolt while thinking Eye Screw, but now I'll use a bolt.


----------



## Radman (Aug 25, 2004)

Nevermind.


----------



## sallyj (Aug 25, 2004)

Hey, do you have something to tie this chandelier off to when it is in the air?

SJM


----------



## Foxinabox10 (Aug 25, 2004)

What do you mean?


----------



## avkid (Aug 25, 2004)

it needs to be supported by more than one thing including a bolt,clamp or aircraft cable


----------



## Foxinabox10 (Aug 25, 2004)

So basically a safety cable that attaches to a fixed point and the chandeleir both?


----------



## avkid (Aug 25, 2004)

and make sure you use a cord with weight limits much more than you intend to actually use, this is because i am the safety nazi and it works


----------



## Foxinabox10 (Aug 25, 2004)

What kind of cable do you suggest?


----------



## avkid (Aug 25, 2004)

braided steel


----------



## Radman (Aug 25, 2004)

Aircraft cable, preferably black, 1/8" should do, but double check load ratings.


----------



## Radman (Aug 25, 2004)

I just realized you might have a problem with the chandelier spinning and twisting. That can be solved if it becomes a problem.


----------



## JahJahwarrior (Aug 25, 2004)

ooh....hadn't ever thought about twisting...

anyhow, yes, I see what you want to do with the board...it could be cool. the one problem you might have is, if the audience sees a floating board.....I don'tknow. I definitely think it could be a very good idea! 

And I also like the suggestion of a safety line....but, by something to tie the chandelier to when it is up, I don't know how safe this is, but I would say that after that second pulley, on the wall, you hae to have something that the rope/steel goes to. One suggestion I would have (and probably safer ) is one of those hand crank things. the other way you could do it, is to have a boat thingy, those things they tie knots onto on boats...forget the name. But, the hand crank is probably safer!!


----------



## Foxinabox10 (Aug 25, 2004)

My thought was to have a boat cleat (http://www.c-mesales.com/index.html?target=p_431.html&lang=en-us) on the wall and to have two pulleys, one where the ceiling meets the wall to direct the rope down to where the boat cleat is to tie it up and down, and the other over top of the chandeleir. Attached to the board above the chandeleir would be two eye bolts, one for the regular line and the other for the safety line. The safety line would attach to the ceiling directly above the chandeleir and would only allow the chandeleir to go down as far as it is supposed to. Does anyone see any problems with this? Where would I buy aircraft rope?


----------



## Radman (Aug 25, 2004)

It's hard to fly stuff using the aircraft cable as the handline. The safety line sounds alright, as long as the board is firmly attached to everything. The chandelier should probably be counterweighted to make it safe. 
I think that if you put a thimble arbor side at the end of the cable you can attach sandbags and a hand line via a shackle. Then you can mount a pin rail on the wall or floor to tie it off. We use a belay knot to tie off the flys, and it's important to tie it properly. Standard galvanized aircraft cable can be bought at Ace, or black can be purchased from most theater suppliers, the quote I have in front of me is 99 bucks for 500 feet, but you can probably buy by the foot.


----------



## Foxinabox10 (Aug 26, 2004)

Is a counterweight really necessary for something less than 30 pounds?


----------



## Radman (Aug 26, 2004)

I would say so. Not a lot of counterweight, just like 5 or 10 lbs. Depending on how close to thirty maybe even more. I like to keep it easy so it can be flown quickly, but still keep it at least 5 lbs chandelier heavy so it comes back down. I might be low on that number BTW.


----------



## Foxinabox10 (Aug 26, 2004)

How would you attach the thimble to the rope? What kind of rope should I use for the tie line betweent the chandeleir and the thimble?


----------



## Radman (Aug 30, 2004)

I would thread the aircraft cable through the pulleys first, then attach a thimble to each end using either the appropriate amount of wire rope clamps or a ferrule. Then, using a shackle, attach the eye bolt from the chandeleir to the thimble. Again using a shackle, attach the appropriate counterweight and the handline. To attach the handline, tie it to a pear ring or chain link using a bowline, and attach the ring or link to the shackle. The safety line can be constructed in tha same manner and attached to the Generally the handline is 3/4" manila or synthetic rope, often labeled for use as a handline. chandeleir via the same shackle. Be sure to properly torque all shackles and wire rope clamps. Always remember to double check everything. I would also wait unntill someone else here or elsewhere approves these instructions.


----------



## ship (Sep 4, 2004)

Remember that not only are you fighting the weight of the lamp but you are also fighting the weight of the wire rope holding it and friction in the system. What might seem a managable 30# quickly can go up to 50 with friction and other factors. The difficulty is the liability especially if you loose control on the line. Same with a winch unless rated for this purpose. The rope tie off thingie is a cleat and for this situation might be acceptable as long as it’s large enough to accept at least six wraps of rope without it slipping off. A double set of cleats just as a double pin rail might be advantageous also. One cleat for low trim, the second for high trim. 


McMaster Carr would be a much more reliable source for such materials than the local hardware store. When rigging you need to be using traceable and load rated components such local suppliers would scratch their head about. Otherwise any number of rigging suppliers such as Sapsis, Secoa, Verr, John Sakash for a start and general theater suppliers offer products they will ensure the liability of, much less especially with a pulley / shiv is rated for overhead lifting. Lots of the stuff at hardware stores is not load rated. National is commonly found and it is stamped with a load rating. They are acceptable but not really intended for use with wire rope. The groove in the pulley in being much wider than the wire rope will flatten it out thus not support it well in possibly damaging it. In this application, there might not be enough weight to damage the wire rope seriously, but it’s a judgement call for the rigger. The wire rope and malleable fittings sold at hardware stores might be the same in the case of the wire rope as what you get thru a supplier often, but it’s the liability thing also. For malleable fittings, they are not to be used at all with overhead lifting. Not rated for this purpose.

For the most part I agree with everything Radman said including the counter weight on the line in the form of a sand bag would be helpful. I might also put a thimble on the hand line and more commonly it would have half hitches for me but it’s the same effect. Given the pear ring were thick enough such as 5/8", it might have enough weight much less radius that you don’t need a thimble.

Locking Carabineers can also be used instead of shackles. They are too soft for a direct wire rope or metal thimble contact with them but would work with a pear ring. Shackles are supposed to be “moused” off for safety in this type of application. Load rated quick links could also be used. In place of a pear ring one could use a large shackle or quick link also with smaller ones attached to it. Given it would have to be moused off. One could also use a wire rope clew which will be safer in sending the various ropes and sand bags where they need to go without binding with each other.



Mounting the cleat and shivs is also difficult and necessary for supervision into how it’s done. Very dependant upon the theater it’s installed in. The shiv itself will need to be rated for wire rope, a typical hardware store shiv both probably won’t be designed for wire rope and while probably not too small for the bending radius if it’s used with the cable sized to it, it’s small radius will add friction. A good pulley is frequently expensive. All hardware does need a load rating stamped on it, most hardware from a hardware store does not - this would include the cleat.

Instead of using wire rope and wire rope pullies, given load rated spectrum type ropes, one could go with less expensive even repelling pulleys in saving money. A ½" spectrum type rope - there is lots of styles of it including some types frequently used on a traveler track or main drape with a wire rope core. Such rope even if it were to burn would not break. For the most part most of the hemp type rigging ropes for this drop line would probably work with such a system. Depends of course on the type as to temperature rating also as to if it can be used in this application. That’s a local code thing as well as choice by the rigger.

Have not covered using drop forged wire rope clips and not malleable ones or proper torque or numbers of them and distances between, much less saddling a dead horse all as difficulties in telling how to do rigging on line. Also of question is the power for this light fixture. Has to come from somewhere and it might need it’s own pickup points necessitating a second set of pulleys and ropes tied in. 

Not difficult, but the details necessitate supervision. As for counter sway, distance equals resistance to sway. The longer the pipe or larger the board it’s mounted to, the more distant the pick up points are and thus more resistant to spinning. One could also rig it with the drop lines at an angle to also prevent movement but it adds to the friction and details of the rigging.

Hope it’s of help also in putting out some details on it, but don’t do it without direct and qualified supervision.


----------



## ship (Sep 4, 2004)

Remember that not only are you fighting the weight of the lamp but you are also fighting the weight of the wire rope holding it and friction in the system. What might seem a managable 30# quickly can go up to 50 with friction and other factors. The difficulty is the liability especially if you loose control on the line. Same with a winch unless rated for this purpose. The rope tie off thingie is a cleat and for this situation might be acceptable as long as it’s large enough to accept at least six wraps of rope without it slipping off. A double set of cleats just as a double pin rail might be advantageous also. One cleat for low trim, the second for high trim. 


McMaster Carr would be a much more reliable source for such materials than the local hardware store. When rigging you need to be using traceable and load rated components such local suppliers would scratch their head about. Otherwise any number of rigging suppliers such as Sapsis, Secoa, Verr, John Sakash for a start and general theater suppliers offer products they will ensure the liability of, much less especially with a pulley / shiv is rated for overhead lifting. Lots of the stuff at hardware stores is not load rated. National is commonly found and it is stamped with a load rating. They are acceptable but not really intended for use with wire rope. The groove in the pulley in being much wider than the wire rope will flatten it out thus not support it well in possibly damaging it. In this application, there might not be enough weight to damage the wire rope seriously, but it’s a judgement call for the rigger. The wire rope and malleable fittings sold at hardware stores might be the same in the case of the wire rope as what you get thru a supplier often, but it’s the liability thing also. For malleable fittings, they are not to be used at all with overhead lifting. Not rated for this purpose.

For the most part I agree with everything Radman said including the counter weight on the line in the form of a sand bag would be helpful. I might also put a thimble on the hand line and more commonly it would have half hitches for me but it’s the same effect. Given the pear ring were thick enough such as 5/8", it might have enough weight much less radius that you don’t need a thimble.

Locking Carabineers can also be used instead of shackles. They are too soft for a direct wire rope or metal thimble contact with them but would work with a pear ring. Shackles are supposed to be “moused” off for safety in this type of application. Load rated quick links could also be used. In place of a pear ring one could use a large shackle or quick link also with smaller ones attached to it. Given it would have to be moused off. One could also use a wire rope clew which will be safer in sending the various ropes and sand bags where they need to go without binding with each other.



Mounting the cleat and shivs is also difficult and necessary for supervision into how it’s done. Very dependant upon the theater it’s installed in. The shiv itself will need to be rated for wire rope, a typical hardware store shiv both probably won’t be designed for wire rope and while probably not too small for the bending radius if it’s used with the cable sized to it, it’s small radius will add friction. A good pulley is frequently expensive. All hardware does need a load rating stamped on it, most hardware from a hardware store does not - this would include the cleat.

Instead of using wire rope and wire rope pullies, given load rated spectrum type ropes, one could go with less expensive even repelling pulleys in saving money. A ½" spectrum type rope - there is lots of styles of it including some types frequently used on a traveler track or main drape with a wire rope core. Such rope even if it were to burn would not break. For the most part most of the hemp type rigging ropes for this drop line would probably work with such a system. Depends of course on the type as to temperature rating also as to if it can be used in this application. That’s a local code thing as well as choice by the rigger.

Have not covered using drop forged wire rope clips and not malleable ones or proper torque or numbers of them and distances between, much less saddling a dead horse all as difficulties in telling how to do rigging on line. Also of question is the power for this light fixture. Has to come from somewhere and it might need it’s own pickup points necessitating a second set of pulleys and ropes tied in. 

Not difficult, but the details necessitate supervision. As for counter sway, distance equals resistance to sway. The longer the pipe or larger the board it’s mounted to, the more distant the pick up points are and thus more resistant to spinning. One could also rig it with the drop lines at an angle to also prevent movement but it adds to the friction and details of the rigging.

Hope it’s of help also in putting out some details on it, but don’t do it without direct and qualified supervision.


----------



## Radman (Sep 5, 2004)

Wow I did leave out some important stuff! I should have phrased that post differently as so not to imply that hardware should be bought at Ace, I simply meant to provide an example of what wire rope is. I didn't even think to mention standard procedure like never saddle a dead horse and such! A thimble on the handline would be a good idea too. Don't know why I picked bowline, but especially with a thimble I'd use at least 2 half hitches. Boy scouts does pay off! I didn't even think of power! I've never heard of shackles being "moused", could you elaborate? Sounds like something I should be doing. I started including quick links in my post but sentences began getting confusing so I cut them out to simplify. What is the proper procedure for wire rope clamps? I got into the habit of using 3 generally and now I've forgotten the numbers! Also, do they make torque nut runners or mini torque wrenches? I generally don't carry arount a giant torque wrench on my belt! If they do I'll have to get one, will come in handy.

Can't stress enough proper supervision!!! We had a small mishap during Wiz tech week. Our "rigger" didn't check all the numbers and our device to fly Glinda had bending pieces of metal so we had to cut it from the show! And I had such an ingenious idea to power the rope lights (it was a "glinda globe" she flew in on.) Actually this might work for you chandelier! What I did was made a little box for a snowmobile battery and bolted it to theback of the globe under the seat. Then I connected it to a small 300W inverter, to which I plugged in the lights! It worked for about 10-15 minutes on full charge, so if the wattage is low it should last a little while. Actually it probably won't wor for you nevermind. Dang. Anyways Glinda was able to just flip the switch on the inverter to turn it on or off. Yeah lots of unsafe rigging for Wiz of Oz. We did't get our grant to hire professional riggers. So anyways it will cost you in hardware.


----------



## ship (Sep 5, 2004)

Your intent was spot on and will have been sufficient no doubt given you were doing the work. Backstage Handbook has photos and charts about such things as how many clips and load ratings of various things. Beyond this, Stage Rigging Handbook should have all the little details fairly well covered in a way the Wire Rope User's Manual while interesting goes over one's head easily. Lots of books on rigging on the market from military training manuals to books about repelling. Stage Rigging handbook is a essential however.


McMaster Carr also has similar info given it's a construction industry 5:1 safety factor listed and not the theater 10:1. Most of the theater rigging companies would have similar charts. Also the little manual that comes with Crosby parts is very useful on the subject of using their equipment. Such a manual will tell about how many clips, the proper torque setting and how not to saddle a dead horse. Will and Chicago are also well known companies for such parts. Other websites such as Crosby and JR. Clancy have a lot of useful information. Clancy in fact used to have lots of books on the subject, I have about a 3" stack of these at work. All are now I think on the website in PDF format.

McMaster and Grainger amongst others like TechniTool and Specialized Products have lots of various torque wrenches. I have a set of Stanley Proto 1/4" and 3/8" ratches that are also torque wrenches. They look about like normal socket wrenches in having a veneer scale instead of large dial. One is set for CamLoc torque, the other for 60 amp stage plug torque. I don't do much rigging anymore, much less any stage rigging anymore. Such details I am also tending to forget. Such details are also why rigging like pyro is a touchy subject here. As long as we are keeping things general in talking about parts and not the specific how to I think we are fine however especially when advising the importance of eyes on the target over advice. There is also a socke wrench adaptor torque fitting that you can pre-set and plop on any socket wrench. I have one also for when there is more than one person doing feeder cable. Torque wrenches are expensive.

For cable clips, I would probably go with a screw driver type torque wrench so it works like a nut driver. I was taught how tight to make such fittings by doing so and having it checked by the person teaching me to verify it was correct over a number of weeks. Not the best way or the proper one, but one that was used when I was a rigger and I think common. For a perminant install, normally Nicro Press sleeves would be used instead of cable clip because they are 100% efficient as opposed to at best 80% for a drop forged type or 60% for a mailaible type, but a torque wrench would otherwise be a very good idea due to the time such a clip would be on a perminant install. 

Saddling a dead horse is just as it is. There is a U-Bolt and a saddle on a cable clip. Of the wire, there is the line end that goes somewhere and the dead end which terminates. You don't want the U-Bolt clamping down and cutting into the end that is not terminating now do you as opposed to distributing the pressure on it by way of the saddle. Very easy mistake that is made and one that can be very dangerous. In the case of needing to have two live ends on your wire, use of a wire rope clip probably is not the best thing to be using. Instead a double saddle clip or any number of other clips availailable would be better. Some however are specifically not rated for overhead lifting also. Lots of ways to terminate wire rope on the market including some very efficient and easy to use wedge types. 

Also of such hardware, if you loose a part such as a nut on a cable clip, you cannot just replace it with something that fits. Different grades of nut are used than the common grade 2 nut. Should you loose a nut and run out of extras while holding the line as it were, there is also the circus knot you can tie in the wire rope which is 80% efficient without any hardware but requires a lot of wire rope on the dead end to tie it. Such a not along with a clove hitch are the only knots you can tie in wire rope. Such knots I also was trained for at the time though we did not use them for more than something really temporary.

By memory, it's two wire rope clips two inches apart on 1/8" wire rope and this is very much from memory which I would check before installing. More than that does not add to the strength but less does cause problems. In additon to how many clips are used, there is also a certain order as to which one gets installed when. Such above books and pamphlets will also have that info.

Mousing off your shackle and turnbuckles is something which prevents them from coming loose. There is other types including cotter pin stay types of shackles on the market also. It involves a piece of tie wire run thru the hole in the shackle's screw than around part of the arm of the shackle a few times so it won't spin loose. Same with a turn buckle, goes from each eye bolt to the middle to the other eye bolt a few times in preventing it from moving.


----------



## JahJahwarrior (Sep 5, 2004)

oh my gosh. 


now you guys are talking WAY WAY over myhead!!! what is a mouse, a thimble, a dead horse?? many terms I do not understand! Would it be possible, if I supply pictures of where we want to hang a chandelier, for somone here to help me figure out how to hang it?? I'm not stupid, I've done enough carpentry/house remodeling/engine work to be proficient with tools and things. And, I could probably figure out how to hang it, but it might not be safe, and I want it as safe as possible! If someone here could help me with tht, I'm gona be getting pictures this wednesday.


----------



## Radman (Sep 5, 2004)

Get the books. I think we have them so I will take a look and maybe post some scans of some pics. Thanks Ship!


----------



## ship (Sep 7, 2004)

Getting instruction and help in supervision would be the best way to learn. Sapsis rigging for a flat fee will for instance come out and provide training. Does not matter how large the class so a few schools can pool finances to pay for the class as one. Other rigging companies will also have similar instruction deals.

After that as mentioned Stage Rigging Handbook is a very respected text on the subject and will answer all of these questions.


----------



## Radman (Sep 9, 2004)

Wow I read Stage Rigging Handbook and learned a whole lot! I also read Backstage Handbook and I thought it would explain things but it was mostly just pics!


----------



## Radman (Sep 21, 2004)

So, I'm interested in how it ended up turning out. How did it go? What did you do?


----------



## Foxinabox10 (Sep 21, 2004)

It actually turned out that the director changed her mind. Should've expected it! She said we might use it next year.


----------



## Radman (Sep 22, 2004)

Well that's boring! Oh well...


----------



## JahJahwarrior (Sep 23, 2004)

I'll see if I can get that book somewhere. We have no fly system or anything, we would be attaching this to the rafters in the ceiling probably. I don't know when we will do it, so I have a few weeks before I need to have an idea of how to. And, most likey we will have this guy who, he doesn't have a job as a carpenter, he's like a chemist, but he builds alot of our set pieces, hew ill probably help us hang it and make it safe. Thanks for the help guys!


----------

