# Anyone know the real name for "horse <rooster>" or "donkey <Richard>"?



## MSwan (Apr 28, 2011)

I would rather not use either of those names around clients that don't really know anything about power since they are not the most pleasant of names. Unfortunately those are the only names I know them by. 
For those that haven't heard those names before they are used for a large cable with twist lock on it that has all three phases of power along with the neutral and ground. Hotels and convention centers sometimes use them for smaller draws that still need 5-wire service (like a small number of chain motors). I have seem a few that have Cams on the other end (which is what I would end up using all the time).


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## DuckJordan (Apr 28, 2011)

*re: Anyone know the real name for "horse <rooster>" or "donkey <Richard>"?*


MSwan said:


> I would rather not use either of those names around clients that don't really know anything about power since they are not the most pleasant of names. Unfortunately those are the only names I know them by.
> For those that haven't heard those names before they are used for a large cable with twist lock on it that has all three phases of power along with the neutral and ground. Hotels and convention centers sometimes use them for smaller draws that still need 5-wire service (like a small number of chain motors). I have seem a few that have Cams on the other end (which is what I would end up using all the time).


 
Are you speaking about SOCO?


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## gafftapegreenia (Apr 28, 2011)

*re: Anyone know the real name for "horse <rooster>" or "donkey <Richard>"?*

OP, I believe you mean feeder cable?


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## Edrick (Apr 28, 2011)

*re: Anyone know the real name for "horse <rooster>" or "donkey <Richard>"?*

Talk about different terminology based on location. =O haha


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## JWilsonLX (Apr 28, 2011)

*re: Anyone know the real name for "horse <rooster>" or "donkey <Richard>"?*

Never heard the term, but 3-phase, 5-wire, twist lock could be something like a NEMA L21-30?


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## derekleffew (Apr 28, 2011)

MSwan, that to which you are referring is likely best known as "eight five": #8 AWG, five conductor (8/5) SO cord with L21-30 connectors at each end (or 10/5 or 6/5). 

The other phrases may also refer to 12-circuit, 12/37 multi-cable with Pyle-National Star-Line connectors. Even 12/18 Socapex is lightweight compared to this stuff.


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## xander (Apr 28, 2011)

Edrick said:


> Talk about different terminology based on location. =O haha


Hey. I've never heard of those terms either. And this city ain't _that_ big.


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## bishopthomas (Apr 29, 2011)

I've never heard that either. Maybe the OP is talking about the disconnect that has large pins in it, usually blue I believe. I see them from time to time (there's an arena I work some that uses them) but not enough to justify buying a connector to build an adapter cable.


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## TimMiller (Apr 29, 2011)

A "horse cock" is described down here as any single jacketed large multicable. Wether it be a cable feeding a raceway or a smaller 8/4, 8/5 or so feeder cable. I once was asked by a preacher what is that cable called. I told him it is a feeder cable feeding the power from the service panel to the distribution panel. He then said to me I know y'all have nick names for everything what is the nick name for that. After I paused for a moment I told him with a straight face we call it a horse cock. He looked straight at me then down at the cable and said that's a good nickname and walked off.


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## MSwan (Apr 29, 2011)

I found the connector I was referring to, it is a California style non-NEMA connector CS6364C & CS6365C:

Most of the time I see them with a set of cams on the other end going into a small motor distro in convention centers and hotels. I am supplying power for a product demo at Grand Central Terminal in a few days and all the venue has told the client is that they will supply "bare ends". Most likely that means cams, but I would like to be prepared for whatever 'bare ends" actually means (really hoping they don't literally mean bare ends as that would be super un-safe). 
@xander, I learned the term in NC over 10 years ago, never used them in NYC.
@bishopthomas, I totally forgot about that style, guess I should rent one of those adapters as well...


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## bishopthomas (Apr 29, 2011)

You sure? California connectors are single phase only and are 50A connectors. All of our distros have a California input and/or output on them. Most large (trailer style) generators I've worked with have these. I rarely see them in hotels but have seen one or two in catering halls, more than likely installed or suggested by the "regular" production company. "Bare ends" is exactly that, tails with stripped insulation. You would typically tie these into lugs on a disconnect panel (with a cutoff switch) or into a breaker and bus bars in a standard electrical panel (usually not the first option).

Honestly, these questions are a little scary coming from someone who will potentially be doing this in a few days. You really need to have a qualified person do the tie in. I would think that Grand Central would have electricians on staff that can take care of this for you, or even not allow you to do it yourself. Many places I work will not allow it, even though we are all qualified to tie in, especially one of us who has years of experience as a union electrician.

Good luck and have fun in Grand Central Station! Take some pictures to share.


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## MSwan (Apr 29, 2011)

You mis-understand the situation.
Grand Central Terminal is supplying power in the form of "bare ends" dropped near the setup location. If they are dropping actual bare ends on the ground outside where people could touch them that is _unsafe_. They should be dropping a connector of some sort as I have never in the over 20 years I have worked in entertainment seem a single piece of portable equipment that just had some lugs that you stick bare wire into to supply power _to_ the device, I almost always use bare ends to connect to a _permanently_ mounted disconnect panel (most often a bull, or company, switch). I also can't imagine anyone crazy enough to leave bare wire laying around on the ground, all it takes is one moron to turn the power on and one to brush the end of the cable for bad things to happen (if the sparks don't start flying the second moron 1 turns on the power).
Since the venue is being so vague about the power connection they are going to supply I have been trying to think of all the possible connection types that make sense so that I can rent the right adapters to ensure our 12x20A distro can be connected without killing anyone. (For the record they are only using 8 of the circuits and if the venue is only supplying 50A/ leg they will have to cut two circuits if they are actually going to be fully maxed out).
The only question I had was what the proper name was for a style of connector/cable that I haven't touch in over 15 years and only ever heard referred to by it's nickname while working convention calls. I am more than qualified to tie in this kind of power.
@bishopthomas according to Lex products California connectors are multi-phase PowerPARTS™ Wiring Devices: 50A 125/250VAC CS-Series Locking Receptacle | Lex Products


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## bishopthomas (Apr 29, 2011)

I don't see where it says "multi-phase." Whether it does or not, they are not 3 phase. There's a ground, a neutral, and two hots. Single phase. I promise. As for the venue dropping hot bare wire tails on the ground, I seriously doubt it. I think you need to make some phone calls to find out what is actually going on there. How can you possibly rent every single electrical adapter to be prepared for this "mysterious" connector? Find out what it is and take what you need.


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## MSwan (Apr 29, 2011)

bishopthomas said:


> I don't see where it says "multi-phase." Whether it does or not, they are not 3 phase. There's a ground, a neutral, and two hots. Single phase. I promise.


Maybe you missed the part that says "3P4W 50A 125/250VAC "Cal Style" Female Locking Receptacle" 3P4W means 3 phase 4 wire. some of the other ones have a metal collar around the outside that acts as the ground connection. 
Also, "two hots" equals 2 phases, those two phases may be working together to supply 208V but there are still two phases of power there.
As far as the venue, we have called they don't respond.


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## xander (Apr 29, 2011)

MSwan said:


> Maybe you missed the part that says "3P4W 50A 125/250VAC "Cal Style" Female Locking Receptacle" 3P4W means 3 phase 4 wire. some of the other ones have a metal collar around the outside that acts as the ground connection.
> Also, "two hots" equals 2 phases, those two phases may be working together to supply 208V but there are still two phases of power there.
> As far as the venue, we have called they don't respond.


I believe "3P4W" refers to three pins, four wires. Regardless, single phase as referred to by bishopthomas, is two hots 180 degrees out of phase, giving you a phase to phase potential of 240V (assuming your hot to neutral is 120V), not 208V...

-Tim


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## bishopthomas (Apr 29, 2011)

MSwan said:


> Maybe you missed the part that says "3P4W 50A 125/250VAC "Cal Style" Female Locking Receptacle" 3P4W means 3 phase 4 wire. some of the other ones have a metal collar around the outside that acts as the ground connection.
> Also, "two hots" equals 2 phases, those two phases may be working together to supply 208V but there are still two phases of power there.
> As far as the venue, we have called they don't respond.


 
I'm done banging my head on your brick wall. Good luck with the gig...


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## derekleffew (Apr 29, 2011)

Girls, you're all pretty! From http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/question-day/23409-california-plug.html :

derekleffew said:


> ...View attachment 4548
> 
> ...


The "California plug" is available either as 
50A 125/250V (XYWG) single phase or more specifically split-phase, as would be used on a general purpose distro
or
50A 3Ø 250V (XYZG) three-phase, for chain hoist power. Note the absence of a neutral conductor. Not appropriate for 120V loads!


bishopthomas said:


> ... California connectors are single phase only and are 50A connectors. ...




MSwan said:


> ...3P4W means 3 phase 4 wire. ...


Both plugs above are 3P(ole)4W(wire). The neutral (if present) always counts as a pole, the ground never counts as a pole but always counts as a wire.

-----
MSwan, if the venue says they will supply power as "bare end," I would take that to mean they will *accept* bare end, as into the lugs on a disconnect, or (if under 100A) they will put their male plug on your cable for the duration of the event.


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## Scarrgo (Apr 29, 2011)

I agree with derekleffew, in that they want bare-end from you. I worked a hotel across from the Grand Central, and thats what I gave them(I know different building)

As a side note, a company I used to work for used those 50A twist(Cali plug) to power the motor controls (3 phase), we used Skjonberg controllers, I liked them alot

Sean...


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## porkchop (Apr 29, 2011)

FWIW I've never hear of 50A being called by any name other than "50 amp" or in the 3 phase case just "Motor power". And i deal with these two almost daily. If you where talking to me about the nick name in question I would think of 2 gauge, 5 wire, SOOW that we use for 100A 3Phase power distribution with a Hubbell HBL5100P9W on the end of it. 

To be totally honest I have come to think that "horse c***" has just become a term for the biggest cable that you have and/or will use. Whether it happens to be 8 gauge, 4 wire or if you've found some crazy /0 gauge SOOW cable in my experiance it just means the biggest. That's also one of several reasons why even though I run hundreds of feet of 2 gauge, 5 wire every week I rarely ever call it by any name other than 100Amp or "The one with the big blue connector."


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## JohnHartman (Apr 29, 2011)

Having worked in multiple hotels here in NYC. I agree with the above comments that they are looking for bare copper from you to tie into their power drop.


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## reggie98 (Apr 29, 2011)

JohnHartman said:


> Having worked in multiple hotels here in NYC. I agree with the above comments that they are looking for bare copper from you to tie into their power drop.


 
Horse**** refers to a stick of 4/0 feeder cable.


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## MSwan (Apr 29, 2011)

Finally talked to the venue and they are in fact literally dropping 60A 3phase, 5 wire bare copper ends for me to attach to my distro... pretty sure I've seen it all now.


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## derekleffew (Apr 29, 2011)

Scarrgo said:


> ...As a side note, a company I used to work for used those 50A twist(Cali plug) to power the motor controls (3 phase), we used Skjonberg controllers, I liked them alot...



Lookit what was included in today's rigging package:



The pictured assembly (which BTW we didn't use, as we had a distro providing multiple 50A females) using a California female, 6/4 SO cord, and E1016-style Cam-Lok s is NOT code-compliant for at least two reasons. What might those be?


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## shiben (Apr 29, 2011)

derekleffew said:


> Lookit what was included in today's rigging package:View attachment 4900
> 
> 
> The pictured assembly (which BTW we didn't use, as we had a distro providing multiple 50A females) using a California female, 6/4 SO cord, and E1016-style Cam-Lok s is NOT code-compliant for at least two reasons. What might those be?


 
Dont the cams need a proper breakout to fan like that?


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## zmb (Apr 29, 2011)

derekleffew said:


> Lookit what was included in today's rigging package:View attachment 4900
> 
> 
> The pictured assembly (which BTW we didn't use, as we had a distro providing multiple 50A females) using a California female, 6/4 SO cord, and E1016-style Cam-Lok s is NOT code-compliant for at least two reasons. What might those be?


 
No over current protection between the cams and plug designed for 50A that could be supplied with 400A?


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## derekleffew (Apr 30, 2011)

shiben said:


> Dont the cams need a proper breakout to fan like that?


Can you expound some?


zmb said:


> No over current protection between the cams and plug designed for 50A that could be supplied with 400A?


Kudos; I hadn't thought of that one. NEC 520.69(A) Adapters: No reduction in current rating. Okay, three reasons.


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## Chris15 (Apr 30, 2011)

The single insulation is so pretty.

Oh I know I know... It didn't come supplied with it's own fire extinguisher. That's gotta be it.


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## gafftapegreenia (Apr 30, 2011)

The inner conductors of SOOW are not intended to be exposed in that manner.


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## Dionysus (Apr 30, 2011)

Here and actually with many electricians, "Horse cock" or "donkey cock" is usually a term used to refer to a Kellems Grip. Hell I know electricians who if you say "kellems grip" they have NO IDEA what you are talking about.
I've certainly never heard it as a reference to feeder cable itself, but I can certainly see the nickname being transferred in your area. Or even just someone there coming up with calling your feeder that once, and it sticking.

Interesting.


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## shiben (Apr 30, 2011)

derekleffew said:


> Can you expound some?
> 
> Kudos; I hadn't thought of that one. NEC 520.69(A) Adapters: No reduction in current rating. Okay, three reasons.


 
Well it looks as if the jacket is just cut off, the internal conductors fanned out and attached to cams. However, I was under the impression that the insulation on those is more to keep the conductors seperate in the cable, I would assume the jacket on those is not the same as the jacket on the cable. I remember this because the electrical inspector made us throw out some 3 channel mults we had in my old place of employment becuase they broke into individual conductors, then into a connector, instead of a proper breakout section and into SOOJW or something similar for tails.


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## derekleffew (Apr 30, 2011)

Correct, shiben and gafftapegreenia. The third reason I'm thinking of is a little more obscure, but is related, sort of, to zmb's answer.


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## derekleffew (May 10, 2011)

derekleffew said:


> ...The third reason I'm thinking of ...


What's the smallest wire size the E1016 is designed to accept?

From NEC 110.3(B):

> Listed or labeled equipment shall be installed and used in accordance with any instructions in the listing or labeling.


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## TimMiller (May 10, 2011)

:neutral:

derekleffew said:


> What's the smallest wire size the E1016 is designed to accept?



8 awg wire


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## derekleffew (May 10, 2011)

Is that your final answer?


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## Sony (May 10, 2011)

derekleffew said:


> Lookit what was included in today's rigging package:View attachment 4900
> 
> 
> The pictured assembly (which BTW we didn't use, as we had a distro providing multiple 50A females) using a California female, 6/4 SO cord, and E1016-style Cam-Lok s is NOT code-compliant for at least two reasons. What might those be?



The sad part is I've seen these adapters on DOZENS of shows, including both of the Broadway tours that I have worked on in my area and several rental houses. They are very common...


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## xander (May 10, 2011)

derekleffew said:


> What's the smallest wire size the E1016 is designed to accept?




> E1016 “J” Series – For cable size #2-4/0, 600 volts, rated up to 400 amperes continuous.
> (UL listed, CSA certified).


Therefore, the #6AWG is not allowed to be used with the E1016 Cam-Lok connector without voiding the UL listing.


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## Grog12 (May 10, 2011)

Donkey Dick? You mean pipe insulation? Pipe Insulation, Self Seal, ID 7/8 In - Pipe Insulation - Pipe and Tubing - HVACR : Grainger Industrial Supply


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## mstaylor (May 10, 2011)

There is also the matter that white isn't marked as being current carrying instead of a neutral. 
Horse cock has always been a big connector, such as,Hubbell Wiring Device-KellemsI have never heard refer to the basket restraints mentioned above.


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