# Audience Lighting (not house)



## Anonymous067 (Jan 8, 2010)

Has anybody ever been to concerts where they use a few banks of lighting (not sure of a technical name) to show on the audience, typically brought up during applause or "you sing it" parts of the song.

I'm working on a rock show for a high school, wondering if a few cyc boxes would work for this hung on the already lowered first electric (I'm lowering it to put some special FX colored pars over the stage and audience).

I was thinking of having the two cyc boxes on a sub and have the lx op bump them or raise them based on the show.

Thoughts/ideas/concerns?


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## tjrobb (Jan 8, 2010)

"Crowd Warmers" is one term I've heard.

I would avoid the 1e if at all possible. The direct light in their eyes can make it hard to see the show itself. If you have them I would recommend box booms, with FOH catwalk being another option. You might get away with the house lights at a low level, but that is a look I have never liked (I feel it breaks the fourth wall).


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## Anonymous067 (Jan 8, 2010)

I'd really rather not fly anything off of the FOH cats, I cannot just hang them and focus, I'd have to lower the lights down, (by 10 feet) off of the FOH catwalk...don't wanna go there. :[

I'm going to play around with my 1st electric a bit. I will be throwing 12 pars on 1st electric right now, 4 on the audience (colored) and 8 on the stage, going straight down (various colors). I'm not sure how low I will drop 1e, probably keep it as high as possible, just to clear the proscenium. (visibility of the bar is not an issue for this show. :])

I don't want to use house lights for this, it's too broad of a shot, not the effect I think I'm going for. 

Any other mounting options? What is a box boom?? 

For the actual lights, am I better off using the cyc boxes I have or Pars. It's the only fixtures I have to work with.
EDIT-and a few scoops..ha

Thanks


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## MNicolai (Jan 9, 2010)

Cyc's might wash well enough that you wouldn't have to hang as many fixtures. I agree with tjrobb though, if you hang them on the first electric they'll act more as blinders than as warmer -- even at a dim level. Ideally you want the light coming from outside of their peripheral vision, so from above the audience, and maybe even slightly behind.

Push comes to shove, you're better off with house lights than blinders. For what you're doing, the lights would be on way too long and would be painful to the audience members off of the first electric. That's the sort of situation where some people would go so far as to get up and leave.

Box booms are designed into the venue. If you don't know what they are, you probably don't have them. They aren't an architectural feature of a room and if not designed into the construction of it, are not remotely possible to add short of a very costly design/install.

Your catwalk might inconvenience you to use it, but if you want the effect, it's likely the best way to go.


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## Anonymous067 (Jan 9, 2010)

So, the idea is that FOH cats are more "on top of" the audience than from in front of them, dead on? Am I understanding this correctly?

The FOH cats are simply out of the question because 1) I need quick load in/load out, (I have to strike this stuff 3 times in 2 days). 2) I don't feel like dealing with admin of the school to explain what the %$# is going on when I get a phone call about the staff meeting going on in the auditorium and why lights are suspended from the ceiling. Not to mention pissing the drama teacher off. No thanks. :]

Its 1e or not going to happen. So...looks like not going to happen.

I think we have altman cyc 3 light horizontal lights. If I understand this correctly, they pivot 45 degrees. Is this from a straight down aim, or from a straight vertical angle? Not sure on this... (probably the straight down, they tip 45 degrees UP?). Not sure how I would even make those lights work. Ugh.

Scratch this idea.....grr....


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## Anonymous067 (Jan 9, 2010)

Would using pars be any better than the cyc boxes?


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## Footer (Jan 9, 2010)

There was a few venues in the St. Louis area that used cyc cells to do this to good effect in my opinion. In my wifes space they do this with 8 lekos from their box boom position and it works well.


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## derekleffew (Jan 9, 2010)

tjrobb said:


> "Crowd Warmers" is one term I've heard.
> I would avoid the 1e if at all possible. The direct light in their eyes can make it hard to see the show itself. ...


I respectfully disagree. I think the First Electric is the perfect place for audience blinders. We're talking concert here, not a play. "Audience Warmers" (audience abuse lights) are almost expected. If the crowd is into the music, they won't care that they are being blinded, as this somehow adds to their enjoyment. I've never understood it, but I don't *go* to rock concerts.



http://www.flickr.com/photos/iggylites/2383548866/

Blah067, _anything_ that makes light can be used as a blinder. Usually one wants the widest fixture possible, so as to cover the most amount of real estate. I've used single-cell cyc lights (what I think you mean by "cyc boxes"), from the DS truss or 1E, many times.

See the following threads:
Striplights as Audience Blinders
Blinder Basics
Build Your Own Audience Blinder

See also audience blinder, Molefay, 8-Light, 9-Light.


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## MNicolai (Jan 9, 2010)

I'm not fully understanding what venues you're working in. Is it one place or several? All schools? Are they all theatres or are some gymnasiums?

If you have multiple locations, you'll need to determine the best place to hang the lights based on what's available. If you have an FOH cat, hang from an FOH cat. If you have box booms, use box booms. You haven't told us what you have to work with though so we can't tell you what to use.

Do you know what an FOH catwalk is? It's a walkway above the audience you actually can stand on. They're meant to have lights hung on them so no one will be bothering you if you have actually used them for what they were intended.


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## MarshallPope (Jan 9, 2010)

Also, how is the FOH cat configured? You mentioned having to lower the lights by 10' - would it be possible to backhang (fronthang?) from the lowest rail? Would it be possible to use a sidearm to extend the fixture in front of the cat so that you don't have to worry about clearing the floor? 

One theatre that I sometimes work at has a pipe semi-permanently suspended from the FOH cat. I'm _*DEFINITELY*_ not suggesting that you do this yourself, but it is something that could be discussed.


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## iLightTheStage (Jan 9, 2010)

Blah067 said:


> Has anybody ever been to concerts where they use a few banks of lighting (not sure of a technical name) to show on the audience, typically brought up during applause or "you sing it" parts of the song.
> 
> I'm working on a rock show for a high school, wondering if a few cyc boxes would work for this hung on the already lowered first electric (I'm lowering it to put some special FX colored pars over the stage and audience).
> 
> ...



It seems like many people are not actually reading your responses. I've used audience blinders for concerts many times, and really like using them, they can really get the crowd more into it...if the band lays the ground work for you. I usually use "8-lights" or "9-lights", usually ones made by Mole-Fay, but that is rental. Because of your low trim, you probably wouldn't want to blast cyc lights OR pars at full at the audience, but I would recommend recording them into a sub at 50% and using the bump button for clapping to the beat, or for the "audience participation" parts. I also like to program some chases with them. 
Keep in mind, because you're trying to hit ON the beat, you might need to leave your sub up at 5% or 10% (basically, just get them to a glow) so that the filaments are warm for that BAM moment. 

As to whether cyc lights or PARs are better... that really depends on your space, so that is hard to answer. But I would imagine you'll get more bang for your buck with the cyc lights.


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## MNicolai (Jan 9, 2010)

There's been some amount of miscommunication going on. I was under what I presume to be the wrong impression of how they're being used.

When I hear crowd warmers, I think dimmer lighting that's used for longer periods of time. (e.g. a comedian on stage wants to see their audience for a majority of the show). If you want to keep them on for extended amounts of time, the fixtures shouldn't be on the first electric.

If you want audience _blinders_ that would be on for shorter spans of time, then the first electric _is_ the best place to hang those lights.


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## Anonymous067 (Jan 9, 2010)

MNicolai said:


> I'm not fully understanding what venues you're working in. Is it one place or several? All schools? Are they all theatres or are some gymnasiums?
> 
> If you have multiple locations, you'll need to determine the best place to hang the lights based on what's available. If you have an FOH cat, hang from an FOH cat. If you have box booms, use box booms. You haven't told us what you have to work with though so we can't tell you what to use.
> 
> Do you know what an FOH catwalk is?



When did the talk of multiple venues come into play?
We aren't talking about gymnasiums, nor do I know many gyms with FOH cats and electrics.

Perhaps you missed my oposition to the FOH cats (simply because it isn't worth the trouble for the quality of the show).

Yes, I do think I know what a FOH cat is. Thanks.


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## Anonymous067 (Jan 9, 2010)

Clearly there has been some communication of the venue as well as the intelligence level of the techs working thereof.

Perhaps the term would be audience blinders, not warmers. This is for purposes of "clapping on the beat" lights and audience participation, such as the lead singer shouting "you sing it"..and cue blinders.

Yes, I do in fact know what a FOH catwalk is... (not sure why I would reference not using it if I didn't know what it was...?).

Pars will be running short already, so I'd rather use the (what I believe to be) Altman SKY-CYC-03 (I THINK that's what they are, or something similar).

Does anybody have answers to the questions I asked about these particular lights (how to tilt them, and what the maximum range of tilt was)?

Thanks


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## derekleffew (Jan 9, 2010)

Blah067 said:


> ...I think we have altman cyc 3 light horizontal lights. If I understand this correctly, they pivot 45 degrees. Is this from a straight down aim, or from a straight vertical angle? Not sure on this... (probably the straight down, they tip 45 degrees UP?). Not sure how I would even make those lights work. Ugh.
> 
> Scratch this idea.....grr....




Blah067 said:


> ...Pars will be running short already, so I'd rather use the (what I believe to be) Altman SKY-CYC-03 (I THINK that's what they are, or something similar).
> 
> Does anybody have answers to the questions I asked about these particular lights (how to tilt them, and what the maximum range of tilt was)?


SkyCycs work like any other fixture. Loosen the T-handles on the side of the yoke, point to the desired place, then re-tighten. Not sure where you got the 45° from.

...Oh, I see. The 45° in the illustration is the (according to Altman) optimum angle for cyc lighting with these fixtures, but any angle of tilt is possible. If it were me, and I had the circuits/dimmers available, I'd gel them in red, white, and blue. The red and blue would make good washes, and the white circuit for accents. Also useful for the patriotic numbers. Do they sing _The Star Spangled Banner_ at the start of each of your events? I know some places do, no matter what the show/event.


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## MNicolai (Jan 9, 2010)

I just wanted to make certain that we're all on the same page. When you said you had to strike the show three times in two days that made it sound like you may or may not have been working in different locations.

For the purpose of audience blinders, just tilt the lights so they point at the audience. Cyc lights usually have a pretty wide range that they can be tilted and if you need more then you can just hang the yokes at an angle. Put the hot spots of the beams wherever the most audience members are going to have their eyes.

The only problem you might have with cyc lights is that they have a very wide beam so the people at the furthest away from the stage will likely not be blinded nearly as much as the people closer to the stage. Otherwise they should work just fine.


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## shiben (Jan 9, 2010)

you can probably tilt them as much as you want. To tilt them, you loosen the handle that locks the tilt, and tilt until its pointed where you want it, just like any other light. The lights mentioned will work fine for what you want to do, but will look clunky hanging in the grid there. Also, the point is that you cant really see the band well, so the goal is to get them right in the audience's eyes. 

derekleffew: the reason that they do this is because it gets people excited and causes some adrenaline to rush. This then makes people more excited. It has become a standard way for the technical staff to communicate with the audience that its time to do certain things, such as sing along with the lead singer, etc. For example, at a recent AFI show I was at, during one of the songs, there are several places in the chorus where the band screams "Anything", and then Davey sings the rest of the chorus lines. When "Anything" is screamed, the audience usually screams along and jumps and generally tries to get onto the stage. The blinders go on during that particular time, and the crowd goes wild. (obviously they were used at other times as well) On the same tour, they were also used as audience warmers when The Gallows was in a circle pit, which was kind of exciting.


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## shiben (Jan 9, 2010)

> If it were me, and I had the circuits/dimmers available, I'd gel them in red, white, and blue. The red and blue would make good washes, and the white circuit for accents. Also useful for the patriotic numbers. Do they sing _The Star Spangled Banner_ at the start of each of your events? I know some places do, no matter what the show/event.



Unless this is a country western show, I would say this might not be a great idea. When pointed at the audience and used for blinder effects, you want them to be open/white, not colored in any way. The lower temperatures are ideal, so probably dont even color correct them.


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## Pie4Weebl (Jan 9, 2010)

shiben said:


> derekleffew: the reason that they do this is because it gets people excited and causes some adrenaline to rush. This then makes people more excited. It has become a standard way for the technical staff to communicate with the audience that its time to do certain things, such as sing along with the lead singer, etc. For example, at a recent AFI show I was at, during one of the songs, there are several places in the chorus where the band screams "Anything", and then Davey sings the rest of the chorus lines. When "Anything" is screamed, the audience usually screams along and jumps and generally tries to get onto the stage. The blinders go on during that particular time, and the crowd goes wild. (obviously they were used at other times as well) On the same tour, they were also used as audience warmers when The Gallows was in a circle pit, which was kind of exciting.



I think Derek might have a little experience with audience abuse, maybe just a smidge. 

My vote is Sky Cycs with 3 colors. N/C, Red and Blue! (Don't try to color mix, just use one at a time!)

Just remember, aside from safety, there are no rules to lighting. Try things, take risks and if they don't work out oh well, you're better for the experience!


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## coolbeam (Jan 9, 2010)

shiben said:


> When pointed at the audience and used for blinder effects, you want them to be open/white, not colored in any way.


I'll be sure to mention this to the next top concert LD I see using scrollers on 8-lights. Van Halen, AC/DC, and Aerosmith come immediately to mind.


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## sem6727 (Jan 10, 2010)

If you thought putting scrollers on an ETC source 4 was a pain, wait until you’ve put scrollers on 8 lighters! Indeed crowd blinders with color scrollers are wicked cool, but a PITA.

Now I am a fan of the traditional no color crowd blinders. However, you might have the issue of your cyc lights having too much spill, in this case you should gel them. If you do gel them, blind with 1 color at time, like Pie4Wheebl said. 

Red, white, and blue chases are awesome especially if your band is... oh I dunno, All AMERICAN Rejects? lol nice one Derek! Definately a hot, a neutral, and cool gel combo would work really well (like red, white, and blue.)

If you decide to go old school and use parcans, thats awesome! You can get some amazing looks by playing with the geometry of the beams while still lighting the band. I really hope you haze this show. 

It kind of seems like some people are only adding to the confusion, I’m sorry but thats what happens when theater techs try to talk rock n roll. (Crowd warmers? really?) Wow.


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## J0rdster (Jan 11, 2010)

I think the term you're looking for is "audience blinder," and they're technically a bank of anywhere from 6-12 lamps, and they can do one or multiple things: bump to the beat of the music at a low intensity, literally blind the audience at certain parts in certain songs, or just make the crowd visible for the performers. Cyc units work very well for this, but my advice would be to frost it. You generally want a white light when employing blinders so you get the most bang for your buck. 

As for a hanging position, if you're already lowering your 1st Electric, by all means, hang your blinders from it. If, by a slim chance, you have a proscenium downlight position you can hang them by sidearm, which would be more effective positioning. If not, the 1st Electric would be great. If they're hung on a FOH position they're likely to be focused at the stage unless you have a less-than-common open catwalk structures. Even still, a FOH position would act more like a pulsing house light, which doesn't as fully involve the audience, and wouldn't be a true blinder. 

So, in short: focus the cyc units in the audience's faces, be sure and frost the units (for protection and distributive purposes), and get creative with them.

Have fun!


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## Anonymous067 (Jan 12, 2010)

J0rdster said:


> I think the term you're looking for is "audience blinder," and they're technically a bank of anywhere from 6-12 lamps, and they can do one or multiple things: bump to the beat of the music at a low intensity, literally blind the audience at certain parts in certain songs, or just make the crowd visible for the performers. Cyc units work very well for this, but my advice would be to frost it. You generally want a white light when employing blinders so you get the most bang for your buck.
> 
> As for a hanging position, if you're already lowering your 1st Electric, by all means, hang your blinders from it. If, by a slim chance, you have a proscenium downlight position you can hang them by sidearm, which would be more effective positioning. If not, the 1st Electric would be great. If they're hung on a FOH position they're likely to be focused at the stage unless you have a less-than-common open catwalk structures. Even still, a FOH position would act more like a pulsing house light, which doesn't as fully involve the audience, and wouldn't be a true blinder.
> 
> ...



Thanks so much for the advice!

sorry, I'm not usually the main light guy, what does frosting the light mean?


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## avkid (Jan 12, 2010)

Blah067 said:


> sorry, I'm not usually the main light guy, what does frosting the light mean?


Using a color media such as Rosco 100-103, which does not modify the color.


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## MNicolai (Jan 12, 2010)

Just as their are colored gels out there, such as red, blue, green, etc, that are used to change the colors of the lights, you can also purchase gels for diffusion that cause the beam of light to become softer and more spread out. They are _usually_ not colored but are textured anywhere from very finely to a whole heck of a lot of texture. It's like shining a light through a window with icy frost on it instead of just a clear window which causes the light to spread out more evenly across the area its focused on and removes any hard edges the pool of light may otherwise have had. If you have a gel swatch book (by any manufacturer) you will be able to find an entire area of it dedicated just to different textures of frost and diffusion gels.

Adding frost will widen the beam of light, but will also reduce the intensity of it. Frost can make one really bright narrow-beam fixture into a sort-of-dim wide-beam fixture.


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## J0rdster (Jan 13, 2010)

Blah067 said:


> Thanks so much for the advice!
> 
> sorry, I'm not usually the main light guy, what does frosting the light mean?



I recommend using Rosco 104 Tough Silk (R104). When you cut the color (you'll most likely need one sheet per fixture) make sure you place it in the frame so that the lines in the texture are running up and down, which will spread the beam of light from left to right.


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## Pie4Weebl (Jan 13, 2010)

I recommend not using frost for blinders, softening their punch defeats the purpose all together. Those kind of units will get the coverage you need even with out the frost. You probably want to have at least two sets, one SR and one SL.


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## northcoastlts (Jan 15, 2010)

We needed some audience lighting, and ended up putting up four groups of six PARs above the audience-each group was tied to a multiple-outlet strip. This gave us pools of lights throughout the audience. It actually didn't take too long to hang them, either since we could hand six at a time. Good luck!
Dave


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