# Recommendations for an electric winch



## gafftaper (Feb 1, 2014)

It's a long climb up to the catwalks over the house in my new theater, on three "flights" of tight spiral staircase. Hauling a light fixture up there is both a lot of work and rather dangerous. I want to buy a cheap electric winch just for raising and lowering fixtures. It needs about a 30' cable and I'm thinking around a 500 lb capacity to have a nice safety factor built in. There are tons of winches out there. Grainger has Warn and Dayton winches starting at around $350... which seem like good options to me. Amazon is full of brands like "Northern Industrial", "Neiko", "Sportsman Series", "Grizzly", "Woodstock", "Shop Tuff" which are all really reasonably priced, but all kind of scare me. 

I would love something like a CM, but spending close to $1500 is hard to justify for this. Any other ideas? Do you have one? What brand do you have?


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## rochem (Feb 1, 2014)

I can't answer the question, but I will say that I've never seen a theatre that had a winch like you describe to the FOH positions. Is there a reason why a rope and sheave won't work? Significantly cheaper, more portable, and probably faster. A pair of stagehands can easily run half a dozen fixtures up and down in one minute, and I'd be hard-pressed to believe that you could achieve that efficiency with a winch in that price range.


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## techieman33 (Feb 2, 2014)

I'll 2nd the rope and sheave. We have a 12" sheave bolted to a pipe that is just long enough to clear the front of both of our lighting bridges. A cheeseborough clamps it to the back railing there is also a hole in the back for a safety cable to be attached. All that makes it very portable so we can move it around as needed. Sometimes it's easier to pull from center, others wherever there is a hole with no fixtures in the way. We have two ropes for it, one long enough for the guy in the air to pull up fixtures, and a 2nd long enough so someone can pull them up from the ground. If you really want a winch I would rig something up so you can lift several fixtures at once so it balances out time wise with using a rope and sheave. As far as brands go Warn is the winch of choice for the off-roading community, they seem to be the most reliable in that environment. I know of some guys that have 20+ year old winches that are still working great with some basic maintenance every now and then.


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## gafftaper (Feb 2, 2014)

A lot of the time I'm going to be working alone moving lights around. So although it's a luxury, It'll certainly make my days a lot easier vs. trying to wrangle lights on a rope by myself.


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## Footer (Feb 2, 2014)

Alright Gaff. I'll bite. 

Grizzly is a real brand. http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0000DD1J0/?tag=controlbooth-20

They make some great affordable woodworking tools that are catalog only. Used their stuff for years. Some of it is even domestic. 

Just be sure to look at your FPM. A 30fpm winch is really going to slow things down. 

Also, if/when you leave this place... the winch goes with you. Don't leave one of those things in the hands of the next guy.


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## derekleffew (Feb 2, 2014)

Arguably, you want a hoist, not a winch, (and definitely not a wench.  )


gafftaper said:


> A lot of the time I'm going to be working alone moving lights around. So although it's a luxury, It'll certainly make my days a lot easier vs. trying to wrangle lights on a rope by myself.


First, NO ONE should ever work in a theatre alone. But you already knew that.
Second, what are you gonna do...put a fixture on the hoist at the bottom, run up the three stories and push the "up" button, take the light off, send the hook back down, climb back down the stairs to put another light on? Then repeat?

With a sheave at the top, and a rope twice as long as the height, with a bowline at each end...
1) The person(s) on the floor can do the hauling,
2) One never has to wait for the end to come back, just use the other one.

3) Buy more lights for FOH so you don't have to move them. S4-LED 10° anyone?


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## porkchop (Feb 2, 2014)

rochem said:


> I can't answer the question, but I will say that I've never seen a theatre that had a winch like you describe to the FOH positions. Is there a reason why a rope and sheave won't work? Significantly cheaper, more portable, and probably faster. A pair of stagehands can easily run half a dozen fixtures up and down in one minute, and I'd be hard-pressed to believe that you could achieve that efficiency with a winch in that price range.



I've seen it pretty often. It's may take a little more time, but its a safer way of doing it both for the personnel and the equipment. That being said, usually the winches I've seen are CM Prostar models. I'd certainly be willing to use a Warn or Dayton winch given an acceptable safety factor (5:1+ assuming you're only lifting equipment with no one standing underneath) , but I have no experience with any of the other brands you mentioned so I'll agree they make me a little nervous.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Feb 2, 2014)

Get some portable barriers to mark the zone under so it is plain to anyone in the room not to be there. The only hoists approved by their manufacturer for overhead lifting are the ones built for stages.


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## gafftaper (Feb 2, 2014)

derekleffew said:


> First, NO ONE should ever work in a theatre alone. But you already knew that.


Well unless i intend to pay for a second crew person to help me out of my own pocket. I'm going to be working alone or with a couple kids if I'm lucky when I do maintenance.


derekleffew said:


> Second, what are you gonna do...put a fixture on the hoist at the bottom, run up the three stories and push the "up" button, take the light off, send the hook back down, climb back down the stairs to put another light on? Then repeat? That's the general idea


 I'm thinking more along the lines of kid down below hooks up the fixture and backs away. That's how I did it at the old theater. It was especially nice when I wanted to move the Seachangers around the theater (those suckers are heavy when fully assembled). However if I do have to do it all by myself, with a hoist I get a minute break between running up and down stairs!


BillConnerASTC said:


> The only hoists approved by their manufacturer for overhead lifting are the ones built for stages.


So that's an even more interesting topic to me. For example Cabellas sells a hoist to hang a deer. It comes in a 400lb, 800lb, and 1300lb variations. It even has optional mounting arm that mounts to a vertical pole and swings out over your lifting area. It's designed to lift something very large up in the air. But would they consider it approved for overhead lifting in a theater situation? Probably not. 


derekleffew said:


> Arguably, you want a hoist, not a winch, (and definitely not a wench.  )


 ARRRRrr Matey. Hoist the Wenches!!!


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## BillConnerFASTC (Feb 2, 2014)

Wouldn't you get kind of messy getting under a der you were field dressing? Hey, I think you'll find that even most chain motors say in fine print not for overhead lifting. Stage maker brand might be the exception. 
_*1910.179(n)(3)(vi)The* employer shall require that the operator avoid carrying loads over people._


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## gafftaper (Feb 3, 2014)

BillConnerASTC said:


> Hey, I think you'll find that even most chain motors say in fine print not for overhead lifting. Stage maker brand might be the exception.
> _*1910.179(n)(3)(vi)The* employer shall require that the operator avoid carrying loads over people._



So is there a distintion in the term "overhead lifting" between lifting with no one around and lifting with people underneath? Just like there is a difference between a moving load and a static load. 


BillConnerASTC said:


> Wouldn't you get kind of messy getting under a deer you were field dressing?


I want to know why you need a 38' cable to lift your deer up for dressing? I'm not a hunter myself, but it seems like there are a lot better place to clean up than on the 3rd floor.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Feb 3, 2014)

Its not "overHEAD" if there are no heads under it.

I'm just guessing the hoist for a dear is on the ground or maybe on your bumper and there is a sheave involved or at least a limb.


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## gafftaper (Feb 3, 2014)

BillConnerASTC said:


> I'm just guessing the hoist for a dear is on the ground or maybe on your bumper and there is a sheave involved or at least a limb.


No the Cabella's hoist is definitely meant for mounting high and lifting below. It even has the optional arm to do it. 



Now, should you trust that a $160 hoist on a $60 arm can lift 880lbs. I would definitely agree no.


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## MarshallPope (Feb 3, 2014)

gafftaper said:


> I want to know why you need a 38' cable to lift your deer up for dressing? I'm not a hunter myself, but it seems like there are a lot better place to clean up than on the 3rd floor.



I'm guessing that it only has 19 feet of travel, because of the mechanical advantage. But still, why you need a deer 20' in the air is beyond me.


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## JChenault (Feb 3, 2014)

Bears ?

Or perhaps giraffes.


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## MNicolai (Feb 3, 2014)

You could give JR Clancy a call. They do quite a bit of different hoist applications. We're in a job right now where one of the proposed mechanisms for hoisting the main loudspeaker arrays was a drum hoist per array.

MarshallPope said:


> I'm guessing that it only has 19 feet of travel, because of the mechanical advantage. But still, why you need a deer 20' in the air is beyond me.



Looks like it can be used either way -- 880lb capacity with the 19' travel and added pulley, 440lb capacity with 38' travel and without pulley.

As for why someone would want to have 20' of travel on a thing like this, they may be installing these in their barns instead of their garages, and when they're not in use, may want to have the hook retract all the way up into the rafters.


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## gafftaper (Feb 3, 2014)

MarshallPope said:


> But still, why you need a deer 20' in the air is beyond me.


You gotta string em up high to keep them safe from Squatches!


Now I have totally hijacked my own thread.


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## techieman33 (Feb 3, 2014)

You have to remember that especially on a farm everything has a ton of different uses. Picking up the deer today, and hauling a bunch of seed up to the loft tomorrow. Also I highly doubt these were designed with deer in mind, just rebadged from some other brand calling it some other kind of hoist.


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## soundlight (Feb 3, 2014)

At the rental/production house where I work we hang our lights for testing on test bars supported by the Harbor Freight Tool hoists. I think the hoists are over 5 years old and all we've had to do is grease up the gearboxes recently. They regularly lift hundreds of pounds no problem. They're attached 2 per 10' or so section of raceway with pipe attached underneath to hang moving lights on for testing. Do they get raised above people's heads on a regular basis? No, generally just about 4' off the ground with a bunch of movers on them. But they do that sometimes a dozen times a day without fail and they've been doing it for a long time. They also regularly raise the bars out above our heads to use that space for other purposes. Would I trust a Harbor Freight hoist for your application after my long-term experience with six of them (two different models, 4 of one and 2 of another)? Absolutely. Would I use them for show rigging applications? No. But for hoisting up a few conventionals when no one is underneath they'll be fine, and you can get one that'll do the capacity you need without having to double for mechanical advantage.

If they failed as often as you think they do, they'd have been sued out of existence. Normally I don't recommend Harbor Freight Tool products but in this case I've had extensive experience with the products in question.

Pretty sure this is one of the models we have: http://www.harborfreight.com/880-lb-electric-hoist-with-remote-control-60347-9120.html


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## BillConnerFASTC (Feb 3, 2014)

I don't know who you think believes they fail often, but Im sure not often. On the other hand one failure in 10,000 units is enough to not use them for overhead lifting.


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## soundlight (Feb 3, 2014)

I've heard plenty of skeptics when I mention what's on the test bars. I've done a lot of research on the internet myself and the only complaint I see is that the remote button can break fairly easily. No failures that I've seen reported. We're fairly hard on our remote buttons though and none of them have gone bad. I've always thought about building a nice little 6-unit pendant for them with a 12-pin industrial control cable, though.

ETA: I'm sure that a lot of the not-name-brand companies selling winches with the same listed capacities that look similar buy from the same Chinese factories. At least that's how it is with a lot of other products from China Inc. - you're often buying from the same factory if you buy direct even.


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## venuetech (Feb 4, 2014)

One thing you would want to look at is the duty cycle of these hoists. the one I briefly browsed was 2 minutes of lift time and 8 minutes of downtime. that may or may not be a concern.


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## MikeJ (Feb 7, 2014)

Footer said:


> A 30fpm winch is really going to slow things down.



That is about Double the speed of most chain motors in our industry. Also These industrial/off-roading/cheap/shop hoists, do not stop on a dime either; you need to give them some space for stop and go, they do not have the fine control of better entertainment motors. Its worth mentioning that some if not all/many CM motors say "not for overhead lifting."

I think it is a reasonable application for this type of motor, obviously gafftaper has taken into account safety concerns, And a decent cable winch should be just fine for this application, after all that is what they are designed for; lifting things, not holding things, like chain motors.


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