# Safety line across proscenium



## DGotlieb (Jan 24, 2020)

I want to install a rope across our proscenium during non show times. I'm not sure how I can anchor it.
Can I install an eyebolt into the smoke pocket of my fire curtain if it doesn't interfere with the travel of the curtain? (not that i'l looking forward to drilling through that metal plate)
Is there some guide line to size or style of rope for this?

Any advice anyone has who has installed something like this?


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## BillConnerFASTC (Jan 24, 2020)

A tennis net has been used, since it can come with a tensioning device. Incord makes a specific product for this. I find it needs to be anchored 4' or more do it's still 42" at low point.

I think anchoring to smoke pocket is fine. Maybe just a hole near edge for a hook rather than add an eye. Hard to know options without having seen the particulars.


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## RonHebbard (Jan 24, 2020)

DGotlieb said:


> I want to install a rope across our proscenium during non show times. I'm not sure how I can anchor it.
> Can I install an eyebolt into the smoke pocket of my fire curtain if it doesn't interfere with the travel of the curtain? (not that i'l looking forward to drilling through that metal plate)
> Is there some guide line to size or style of rope for this?
> 
> Any advice anyone has who has installed something like this?


Calling: *@egilson1 @What Rigger? @derekleffew* and another who I can't recall at the moment. 
Toodleoo! 
Ron Hebbard


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## Van (Jan 24, 2020)

Some of our installations have require Stanchions to meet a given code. I would hope you could either do as Bill said above or go into the material on the opening itself. If you do a hole in the smoke vent I would definitely want a cap nut on the inside of the pocket OR surface weld a Pad-eye on the outside of the pocket, depending on how your Pro is set up. Or install a brass insert to the outside of the pro so you could install a stage screw or Screw eye to clip into.


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## egilson1 (Jan 24, 2020)

I’d avoid the smoke pocket. The curtain has to operate at all times and anything that might potentially interfere, will. 

I’ve got a solution thought. Why not close your fire curtain. It’s code complaint and does a great job of keeping people from walking off the stage! And it’s free to install!

Ethan


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## RonHebbard (Jan 24, 2020)

egilson1 said:


> I’d avoid the smoke pocket. The curtain has to operate at all times and anything that might potentially interfere, will.
> 
> I’ve got a solution though. Why not close your fire curtain. It’s code compliant and does a great job of keeping people from walking off the stage! And it’s free to install!
> 
> Ethan


 *@DGotlieb* Plus it would regularly "exercise" your Fire Curtain perhaps staving off Alzheimer's, senility and keeping it practiced and in good form. 
Toodleoo! 
Ron Hebbard


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## DGotlieb (Jan 24, 2020)

pulling out the fire curtain is hard to do as a solo job (holding the weight and realigning the quick release pin and pully) and can't be done by the kids who run most of our shows. I run a children's theatre were I train my crew of 8-16year olds to do everything. A rope or net they could set up, fire curtain I would always have to do it instead of just supervise. 

My pro opening is only 24' wide so I wonder if I need Stanchions. I'm sure there is some code I should be following here in the SF bay area but not sure where to reference. As far as I know no one has done anything in the 87 years the theatre has been open I figure it's never to late to start.


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## DGotlieb (Jan 24, 2020)

here is a quick rough drafting of the smoke pocket
large c channel (red) attached to a big steel plate (green) containing a track (blue) for the curtain (yellow)
the channel and plate are held together with bolts (orange)
looking at it agian I feel like I can maybe just pull one of the bolts at about 3'-6" or 4'-0" and replace it with an eye bolt with out compromising any of the smoke pocket, instead of making a new hole. I just want to make sure it's OK to do that


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## BillConnerFASTC (Jan 24, 2020)

Since the fire curtain is required to be closed when not in a production or rehearsal, that may need attention. Motorizing it would be a great solution.

But the idea of replacing one if the bolts with an eye bolt or eye nut seems fine.


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## RonHebbard (Jan 24, 2020)

DGotlieb said:


> pulling out the fire curtain is hard to do as a solo job (holding the weight and realigning the quick release pin and pully) and can't be done by the kids who run most of our shows. I run a children's theatre were I train my crew of 8-16year olds to do everything. A rope or net they could set up, fire curtain I would always have to do it instead of just supervise.
> 
> My pro opening is only 24' wide so I wonder if I need Stanchions. I'm sure there is some code I should be following here in the SF bay area but not sure where to reference. As far as I know no one has done anything in the 87 years the theatre has been open I figure it's never to late to start.


 *@DGotlieb* You're correct; it's NEVER to late to start. 
How about two or three of your stouter students learning to haul your fire curtain up together while one of the ten year olds aligns the release mechanism and re-inserts the pin; a co-operative team effort. 
Toodleoo! 
Ron Hebbard


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## DGotlieb (Jan 24, 2020)

@BillConnerFASTC my understanding (which is likely incorrect) is because my fly loft is only 26' high my fire curtain isn't even required, but seems way more work to remove then to just leave it.
also I think there may be 2 weeks a year where we are neither in performance or rehearsal....


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## Ben Stiegler (Jan 24, 2020)

If I can ask, DG .. what's your theater company and facility? We are at least regional neighbors!


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## DGotlieb (Jan 24, 2020)

Palo Alto Children's Theatre


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## BillConnerFASTC (Jan 24, 2020)

DGotlieb said:


> @BillConnerFASTC my understanding (which is likely incorrect) is because my fly loft is only 26' high my fire curtain isn't even required, but seems way more work to remove then to just leave it.
> also I think there may be 2 weeks a year where we are neither in performance or rehearsal....


Right. By the national model codes not required under 50' in new construction in most jurisdictions. So, you could remove it if otherwise everything else is up to new standards. 

But assuming it was required the requirement intends for instance you close it at night? Or are you either rehearsing or in a show 24/7?


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## DGotlieb (Jan 24, 2020)

Oh I see I thought it meant like if you were dark for more then a day. I can't say that I have ever worked in a place that ever put the fire down more then occasional testing so didn't realize it should be like that.


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## derekleffew (Jan 24, 2020)

DGotlieb said:


> ... so didn't realize it should be like that.


Most people don't know. Even if they do know, they still don't follow the practice. https://www.controlbooth.com/threads/poll-operation-of-fire-curtain.12159/

Why a rope at the plaster line? If to protect against stage edge, perhaps something from this thread https://www.controlbooth.com/threads/stage-edge-safety.9317/ .
.

DGotlieb said:


> my understanding (which is likely incorrect) is because my fly loft is only 26' high my fire curtain isn't even required, but seems way more work to remove then to just leave it.


Whether its existence is required or not, my thinking is that IF you have one, it must be used according to code, which means closed unless the space is in active use.

Along the same lines of ... if your car is older than 1968 and didn't come with seat belts, you can't get a "click-it or tick-it" ticket. But if it does have seat belts, regardless of age, you better "buckle up."


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## What Rigger? (Jan 26, 2020)

egilson1 said:


> I’d avoid the smoke pocket. The curtain has to operate at all times and anything that might potentially interfere, will.
> 
> I’ve got a solution thought. Why not close your fire curtain. It’s code complaint and does a great job of keeping people from walking off the stage! And it’s free to install!
> 
> Ethan


I'm thinking fire curtain is the way to go. Here's a few other things to be wary of:
If you start installing a line, then you get into the question of whether this is attempting to be a passive fall prevention system (similar to handrails on stairs), so in that case this system must be engineered, and approved in a legal/compliance fashion. Simply slamming inserts and eyebolts into the plaster line won't cut it and could open you up to liability. 
Is it a demarkation line to keep someone from encroaching within 6 feet of an unprotected edge over 31" tall (or maybe it's 4 ft in your area)? There are still compliance issues that have to go through the oversight of some sort of AHJ. Again, there could be liability issues. 
And then there's just the whole pain of trying to get said AHJ to grasp the idea that this is a stage and that makes things weird for a lot of code stuff. 
You're a city owned venue, yes? Do you have a connection you could bounce this off of that would be able to give more "hands on" advice?


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## BillConnerFASTC (Jan 26, 2020)

If you do go with a cable or net, and otherwise open, there are a lot more things you can do than you can without opening the fire curtain. Focus lights, building scenery close to curtain line, etc.

I'd prefer there was any warning or barrier no matter how flimsy more of the time. And I emphasize again the training. Make a plan to tell anyone that comes o stage that this is like no other place in the built environment and that there are unguarded fall hazards.

The Life Safety Code tries to present a reasonable requirement allowing a lot of flexibility:

"Where a guard is ordinarily required but not provided in accordance with 12.2.11.1.6 exceptions (1) and (2), a written plan shall be developed and maintained to mitigate the fall hazards of unguarded raised floor areas and vertical openings on stages."

And the appendix note:

"The written plan should identify the unguarded areas and should include precautions and provisions to mitigate the fall hazard. Such precautions and provisions may include:

Training
Choreography
Rehearsal
Restricted access to the stage
Restricted access to unguarded edges
Warning lights
Audible warnings
Tactile edges
Warning barriers
Signage
Temporary barriers
Personal fall protection
Fall restraint
Spotters"


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## Chase P. (Jan 29, 2020)

What about a beam clamp attached to the plate, with an eyebolt screwed into it? The thinnest part of the beam clamp would be inside the pocket, the eyebolt and barrier rope would land on the upstage.

It’s all rated hardware, and is easily removable. You could do multiples and use the tennis net suggested earlier (I love that idea).


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## Murdockw (Jan 29, 2020)

DGotlieb said:


> I want to install a rope across our proscenium during non show times. I'm not sure how I can anchor it.
> Can I install an eyebolt into the smoke pocket of my fire curtain if it doesn't interfere with the travel of the curtain? (not that i'l looking forward to drilling through that metal plate)
> Is there some guide line to size or style of rope for this?
> 
> Any advice anyone has who has installed something like this?


If you need an eye to attach the rope then drill through the track, install an elevator bolt (no head) and use a cast threaded eye. You may have to turn the bolt to get the eye to orient the eye properly. Once your satisfied with it, unscrew the eye, apply some threadlock, reinstall and walk away.


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## egilson1 (Jan 30, 2020)

Here’s a cut sheet of one option for a safety “net” for proscenium openings.


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## Nic (Feb 1, 2020)

I’ve read through the thread and am still unsure about what lies downstage of the plasterline. Is it a stage edge? Orchestra pit? 
I ask because there are some very good permanent options for orchestra pits.


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## DGotlieb (Feb 1, 2020)

Nic said:


> I’ve read through the thread and am still unsure about what lies downstage of the plasterline. Is it a stage edge? Orchestra pit?
> I ask because there are some very good permanent options for orchestra pits.


The front edge of my stage is about 2' DS of the plasterline. In front of that is an Orch pit that is about 52" down. Which is low enough to be an issue, but not so low I can put a net that covers the pit because it would go through the heads of my musicians.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Feb 1, 2020)

Fundamental problem with the demi-pit is no way to put a net or tensioned wire grid over it. Access through house also effectively prevents this fall protection.


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## DGotlieb (Feb 1, 2020)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> Fundamental problem with the demi-pit is no way to put a net or tensioned wire grid over it. Access through house also effectively prevents this fall protection.


if only they had thought about this in the 30's.

I'm looking into pickle ball nets right now, they are about 21' wide which would cover almost all my 24' wide proscenium. Next length up seem to be volley ball but i'm not sure where to put the extra 3-4' of net... though I guess it doesn't have to be taught just the ropes do. or maybe I could trim the edge and reinforce it at the length I want.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Feb 1, 2020)

DGotlieb said:


> if only they had thought about this in the 30's.
> 
> I'm looking into pickle ball nets right now, they are about 21' wide which would cover almost all my 24' wide proscenium. Next length up seem to be volley ball but i'm not sure where to put the extra 3-4' of net... though I guess it doesn't have to be taught just the ropes do. or maybe I could trim the edge and reinforce it at the length I want.


Get the setup from Incord. Simple, fits, complete.


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## Nic (Feb 2, 2020)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> Get the setup from Incord. Simple, fits, complete.


I couldn’t agree more. DGotlieb*,* I would say your only other alternative would be a temporary roof edge protection system. Whatever you choose, get something professionally engineered specifically for fall protection. Your home brew options, while economical and well intended, will do little to mitigate your liability in the event of an accident.


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## TimMc (Feb 2, 2020)

I like a sign on each back stage entry door: DANGEROUS conditions ahead: open pit, falls over 3ft possible, DO NOT ENTER.

At our PAC we have a white rope we stretch across the proscenium when the hydraulic pit is down below stage level. The only time it remains down is during a show run. As the theaters are not generally accessible from back stage (locks, keys, alligators in a moat, etc) only city employees, contractors, and stage hands have access to the stages. We also have more light on stage after hours than just a ghost light, too.


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## RonHebbard (Feb 2, 2020)

TimMc said:


> I like a sign on each back stage entry door: DANGEROUS conditions ahead: open pit, falls over 3ft possible, DO NOT ENTER.
> 
> At our PAC we have a white rope we stretch across the proscenium when the hydraulic pit is down below stage level. The only time it remains down is during a show run. As the theaters are not generally accessible from back stage (locks, keys, alligators in a moat, etc) only city employees, contractors, and stage hands have access to the stages. We also have more light on stage after hours than just a ghost light, too.


 *@TimMc * What about fire fighters in your neighborhood, have they been in for any special familiarization tours*?* 
When our 2,183 seat soft-seater opened in the fall of 1973, all of Hamilton, Ontario's fire fighters were given two full tours approximately a week apart; an initial tour, then a second tour once they'd had a few days to mull things over and conjure queries: Six to eight firemen and their chiefs were paraded through our backstage at a time until every fire fighter had had two full tours and all their queries answered. 
Toodleoo! 
Ron Hebbard


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## TimMc (Feb 2, 2020)

RonHebbard said:


> *@TimMc * What about fire fighters in your neighborhood, have they been in for any special familiarization tours*?*
> When our 2,183 seat soft-seater opened in the fall of 1973, all of Hamilton, Ontario's fire fighters were given two full tours approximately a week apart; an initial tour, then a second tour once they'd had a few days to mull things over and conjure queries: Six to eight firemen and their chiefs were paraded through our backstage at a time until every fire fighter had had two full tours and all their queries answered.
> Toodleoo!
> Ron Hebbard


Our PAC is 51 years old and I've only been there the last 22 years. If there was a tour it was before my time or when I was not present. I know the FD had a say in removing the fire hoses - better to get out than play amateur firefighter.


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