# Poll: Operation of fire curtain



## derekleffew (Apr 9, 2009)

From this thread, we've learned that The Life Safety Code, NFPA 101, 13.4.5.7.6.3. (G) states

> Curtain Position. All proscenium curtains [fire curtains] shall be in the closed position, except during performances, rehearsals, or similar activities.


The poll is anonymous, so be honest. 

edit: If you don't have a fire curtain, you needn't bother responding. You'll skew the poll.


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## cdub260 (Apr 9, 2009)

I voted other on this pole because my venue has no fire curtain. The stage building ends at the upstage side of the orchestra pit and the audience is outside.


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## sk8rsdad (Apr 9, 2009)

Same reason as cdub260. 

Our stage is classified as a "performance platform" so we do not have/need a fire curtain. The auditorium and stage are considered a single room. If we had a fly tower (aka chimney) it would be a different story.


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## MNicolai (Apr 9, 2009)

What are we considering a proscenium curtain? Does that include only the fire curtain, or only the main curtain, or both? It would be both, I would assume...


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## SteveB (Apr 9, 2009)

Our 2 Prosc. spaces have motorized fire curtains, with fused link activators, as well as "cut the rope with adjacent knife".

The motor system is in excess of 50 years old and we have been told that lowering/raising on a daily basis, which was the practice up to about 5 years ago, was inadvisable. Thus it's left up.

Steve Bailey
Brooklyn College


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## derekleffew (Apr 9, 2009)

SteveB said:


> ...as well as "cut the rope with adjacent knife." ...


Lemme guess--the knives are so rusty and dull that they wouldn't even cut soft butter, and you'd die in the fire while trying to saw though the 1/2" hemp line?


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## RichMoore (Apr 9, 2009)

20+ years ago, when I worked as an installation rigger for theatrical equipment, I installed many fire curtains and I do not remember any of them having to come in and go out on a regular basis. They were rigged with fusable links and with a one pound lead ball secured with a half hitch around the operating lines and of course the obligatory "knife in a box" mounted on the wall.

I do remember hearing of the practice on Broadway of the fire curtain being lowered and raised before each performance, but not of them being down when the theatre is dark. Is that a new-ish regulation?

Rich


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## Clifford (Apr 9, 2009)

The theater at our school has no fly system, so the fire curtain is a big installed thing of curtain. It will come down only when you pull a big red ring on the wall. The only time I've ever seen it down was when a freshman pulled the ring. It took six guys a day to raise and secure again. We're not allowed to touch those rings.


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## Footer (Apr 9, 2009)

Most of the fire curtains I have seen in the last few years are the accordian type. When the ring/rope is pulled it drops a control line that starts spinning a fly wheel. The curtain drops in about 20 seconds or so to the deck. You then have to go up to the grid with a crank and crank the whole thing back up. I could not imagine having to do that daily. 

For the house that the fire curtain (or fire wall as it usually is) is motorized, I still have never brought it in daily. Neither of my current spaces have one.


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## dramatech (Apr 9, 2009)

Our fire curtain was installed in 1977 with no provision to lower and raise at will. When you cut the rope or the link breaks, it is a major effort to raise. It came down about three years ago during a hurricane. Water coming in through a leak in the roof set off the fire alarm and it broke the link.
I installed an ice skating rink on the stage of the "Deutsches Theatre" in Munich Germany about 5 years ago, and the regulations there required that the firecurtain, (a solid wall about 4 inches thick with lead covering on both sides) was to remain down at all times, unless there were two fire marshalls in uniform sitting in special seats just behind the proscenium with a viewing port for seeing the apron and the house. The only exception was for rehearsals with no more than 9 people in the house, and a certified stage hand watching the rehearsal from one of the fire marshalls seats. The certification process for the stage hand was intensive.
It was a very expensive production because of all of the rules and guild (union) requirements. The show was a classical Ice ballet version of Swan Lake, presented by the St Petersburg ballet on Ice from Russia.


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## zerolmzero (Apr 10, 2009)

I've been working in different theaters in Belgium for a while now and there are a lot of different procedures here. In smaller venues we set up our show for two days and they keep the fire curtain usually up. In larger venues I encountered the "walls" which are closed even between rehearsals and shows. They can be a pain because our show travels with a pool which we prefer to put up very close to the public, thus being in the way of the curtain.

A friend of mine told me that a curtain kept open for about a meter from the ground is preferred when fire breaks out. A completely closed curtain smothers the fire, but causes much smoke which causes most accidents. When there is a bit of air circulation the fire keeps burning, but in a more controlled way and with less smoke. Anybody here more expertise on this theory?


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## BNEL (Apr 10, 2009)

In most of the venues that I have worked in the fire curtain is usually is setup for a one time fast drop and takes forever to return it to the prepared position. So I don't see it practical to bring it in and out daily unless it is motorized. Also I have not heard of this code as I have alot of connection with the local fire deptartment.
However I do bring my fire curtains into the deck once a year to inspect them. I have a manual release crank where I can drop it to the deck but it takes close to a hour to drop. I keep a paper record of my inspections of both my visual inspections and curtain tags so that I can show it to the local fire marshal when asked.


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## Erwin (Apr 10, 2009)

dramatech said:


> Our fire curtain was installed in 1977 with no provision to lower and raise at will. When you cut the rope or the link breaks, it is a major effort to raise. It came down about three years ago during a hurricane. Water coming in through a leak in the roof set off the fire alarm and it broke the link.
> I installed an ice skating rink on the stage of the "Deutsches Theatre" in Munich Germany about 5 years ago, and the regulations there required that the firecurtain, (a solid wall about 4 inches thick with lead covering on both sides) was to remain down at all times, unless there were two fire marshalls in uniform sitting in special seats just behind the proscenium with a viewing port for seeing the apron and the house. The only exception was for rehearsals with no more than 9 people in the house, and a certified stage hand watching the rehearsal from one of the fire marshalls seats. The certification process for the stage hand was intensive.
> It was a very expensive production because of all of the rules and guild (union) requirements. The show was a classical Ice ballet version of Swan Lake, presented by the St Petersburg ballet on Ice from Russia.



I can see the virtue of having a fire curtain in place if the venue is not in use. Why not be as protected as you can be? But what you have described above seems absurd to me! If what you/we do is so dangerous that we need Fire Marshals watching our activities and overseeing the property, should we be filling a room with an audience at all!? 

To answer the OP, I have worked in venues where we did bring in the fire curtain (a Cruise Ship) and others where we didn't. I voted no as the no's outnumber the yeses.


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## gafftaper (Apr 10, 2009)

WOW that story from Munich is CRAZY!!!

One of the theaters I occasionally work at had a full remodel 3 years ago. At that time they were told because the height of the ceiling in the house is almost the same as the height of the fly space (both about 42') the code considers it one room and they didn't have to install a fire curtain. 
CRAZY. 

Secondly note: The Cirque du Soleil Ka theater has no fire curtain because there is no traditional stage. It does have a deluge system. They told me on my tour that there's no way they could build that theater today (about 6 years later) do to massive recent changes in code.


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## midgetgreen11 (Apr 10, 2009)

We do not have a fire curtain--- as our stage house is a continuation of the house roof with no fly system. There is actually no seal between the two---as soon as the drywall of the house goes above the sight lines of the ceiling clouds--- the drywall stops---you can actually climb over if you're stupid enough to do so.


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## SteveB (Apr 10, 2009)

Well here's some theater history trivia:

Way back in olden dayes, in the quaint hamlet of New York City, say 1970's, the real estate market was starting to get really hot. Many developers were looking at all that "air space" above all those Broadway and once-were-Broadway-theaters-that-were-now-porno-film-houses (42nd street in the old days) and decided that the air space was wasted space. 

Trouble was, the fly towers above the stages required that nothing be built on top of the stage, as the standard code compliant method for removing smoke from a fire ("far" to you southerners) on-stage, was to have roof mounted doors/windows that would open in a fire. Thus all theaters with fly towers had roofs with nothing on top. 

One new office building going up in mid-town got a tax break to put in a theater inside the building, part of an effort by the city to retain the theater community in the mid-town area. Note that this was 20 years before "Broadway" became a viable industy all it's own. Thus the tax break for building/keeping a theater. 

The first test case was the American Place Theater, which had a theater in the basement. Not much fly tower, as that was way too much floor space to give up (to a non-profit theater company), but certain city codes had to be modified in order to allow for both smoke evacuation, once handled by rooftop doors, as well as the requirement for a replacement for a fire curtain, which could not be installed due to no fly tower.

Thus was born (in NYC at least) a motorized fan smoke evacuation system, powered off an emergency generator, as well as a water deluge curtain (think of a sprinkler system on steroids) in place of a fire curtain.

The result was a number of new theaters built - The Gershwin ("Formerly the Uris and occupying six stories of the new Uris Building") , The Minskoff ("perched on the third floor of One Astor Plaza, the fifty-five-story office tower"), etc... 

Deluge curtains are a disaster as a concept and articles have been written about the advantage of a solid old-style fire curtain, that can physically prevent scenic elements from falling thru to the audience chamber and today NYC allows a real fire curtain as an alternative to a deluge, for theaters with fly towers. Fan systems are required though. 

Good thing as my spaces get to keep the fire curtains, when we were told we needed deluge.

Steve B.


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## Erwin (Apr 13, 2009)

All these different examples of codes and fire prevention systems has brought a question to my mind. What is the purpose of a fire curtain? Yes, I know it is to prevent the spread of fire from one part of the building to the other and protect the audience in the event of a fire on stage and that it is a good tool. But, why do many venues that are larger than some fly houses, not need such a device? Why does an arena not have such a device between sections of seating, or performance space and audience? 

If I recall there was a pretty well known fire in a Football (soccer) stadium in England that was very nearly a huge tragedy. 

I can think of ways to separate backstage areas from FOH in buildings without fly towers (Like a water tight door if anyone has worked on a ship before). It would be expensive, hazardous to operate, but is a Fire curtain not? 

It just seems to me that the codes are very inconsistent in showing what is hazardous and what is an appropriate precaution to take. 

Stories like that German theatre make me imagine a future where a Public saftey officer will shout "Hey, you! Where are you going without your bubble!"


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## icewolf08 (Apr 13, 2009)

Believe it or not, the purpose of a fire curtain extends beyond the simple separation of the audience and the stage. This is observed as a primary function, but it serves a far greater purpose. For all intents and purposes a fly tower is a giant chimney. If a fire were to start on stage, just like in your fire place at home the heat and air would begin to draft up. As the theatre should be equipped with smoke doors on the roof, when the open all the hot air and smoke should vent up. If you leave the proscenium open, this draft has the potential to literally suck the air out of the room. This is something you don't want. So you not only save your patrons from being burned but also from lack of oxygen. You also cut off a major O2 supply for the fire.

Most public buildings are now built with fire retardant doors with electromagnetic catches so that when the fire alarm is triggered the doors close. Watertight doors would be a bad idea because watertight is airtight, and while cutting off air to a fire will help, you don't want to trap people in sealed compartments.


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## mrtrudeau23 (Apr 13, 2009)

our fire curtain was removed and replaced with a deluge system a few years ago.


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## len (Apr 13, 2009)

Based solely on my high school experience, the fire curtain could be lowered, but it never was. There was an emergency latch on each downstage wing wall, and all you had to do was push in the lever to release the curtain. It was probably made of asbestos so moving it a lot would have probably been worse then leaving it alone.


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## cprted (Apr 13, 2009)

I voted other because we have a deluge system.


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## ReiRei (Apr 14, 2009)

We have a fire curtain in my high school theatre but it's not meant to be lowered and raised. You pull the ring on stage left and it flies down at the shin breaking speed. Once, our drama teacher though that the theatre needed a little more oomph or something and she hung flowers on the ring. I was trying to show the new kids where it was and I was like, "What are all these flowers doing here? Where's the fire curtain ring? It was here last week!!!" And then we got rid of the flowers.

And half the time something is always in the way of the fire curtain. So if we actually pulled the ring and needed to bring it in, it wouldn't work or it would crash through something valuable like our grand piano. That would suck.

I'm not really that worried though because we are a high school theatre. We don't use fire in our theatre unless the fire martial is present. And as long as I've been here, I've never seen a gel melt and catch someone's hair on fire or anything.


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## icewolf08 (Apr 14, 2009)

ReiRei said:


> And half the time something is always in the way of the fire curtain. So if we actually pulled the ring and needed to bring it in, it wouldn't work or it would crash through something valuable like our grand piano. That would suck.



Having anything in the path of the fire curtain (other than people or when you are moving things) is a violation of fire codes in almost every state (if not every). Not to mention that smashing a piano would be a bummer. 


ReiRei said:


> I'm not really that worried though because we are a high school theatre. We don't use fire in our theatre unless the fire martial is present. And as long as I've been here, I've never seen a gel melt and catch someone's hair on fire or anything.



This is absolutely the wrong attitude. Thinking that nothing will happen is what leads to bad things happening. Just because you don't use fire in your shows without supervision doesn't mean that there won't be a fire. Codes are not in place for you to pick and choose from. They are there for your patrons and your own safety.


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## ReiRei (Apr 14, 2009)

icewolf08 said:


> Having anything in the path of the fire curtain (other than people or when you are moving things) is a violation of fire codes in almost every state (if not every). Not to mention that smashing a piano would be a bummer.



I've actually talked to our theatre manager/TD about that and he seems to think that it's fine. I've managed to convince him to move stuff a few times, but he usually doesn't budge. I guess safety isn't as important as seeing a pianist's eyelashes, if you understand what I mean. But then again, you won't be able to see if your eyeballs get burned because the fire curtain didn't work properly and the piano spontaneously combusted.

And you're right. Anything can happen, especially when you're not prepared or you think it won't.


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## willbb123 (Apr 14, 2009)

ReiRei said:


> I've actually talked to our theatre manager/TD about that and he seems to think that it's fine. I've managed to convince him to move stuff a few times, but he usually doesn't budge. I guess safety isn't as important as seeing a pianist's eyelashes, if you understand what I mean. But then again, you won't be able to see if your eyeballs get burned because the fire curtain didn't work properly and the piano spontaneously combusted.
> 
> And you're right. Anything can happen, especially when you're not prepared or you think it won't.



Its really not fine, but I will restrain from going into it. 
If the fire curtain were to drop it drops very fast. It WILL destroy anything it comes down on. I've heard stories about stage monitors and stands getting destroyed because they were in the way. 

We always make sure that the fire curtain path is clear. Groups like to put there monitors and front fills right on the edge of the stage. But because of the fire curtain they have to move upstage (where i can actually light them )


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## icewolf08 (Apr 14, 2009)

willbb123 said:


> Its really not fine, but I will restrain from going into it.
> If the fire curtain were to drop it drops very fast. It WILL destroy anything it comes down on. I've heard stories about stage monitors and stands getting destroyed because they were in the way.



I have heard stories as well, however, fire curtains are supposed to be regulated as to rate of drop and speed. In fact I believe that the code states there is a certain amount of time it is supposed to take for a curtain to fall but it has to decelerate to a certain speed for the last 8 feet.


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## WestlakeTech (Apr 15, 2009)

At Westlake, we've got three ways to bring in the fire curtain.

1) Pull Stations
2) Fusable link
3) Computer

We count on the fusable links in case there's a fire when nobody's around.


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## WesternTD (Apr 24, 2009)

icewolf08 said:


> I have heard stories as well, however, fire curtains are supposed to be regulated as to rate of drop and speed. In fact I believe that the code states there is a certain amount of time it is supposed to take for a curtain to fall but it has to decelerate to a certain speed for the last 8 feet.



My local Fire Marshall (Utah) has told me that the Fire Curtain should lower in 30 seconds or less.
I am unsure of the proper speed, but ours moves at 1 foot per second (27 foot pros.), w/ warning 'clicks' every foot for the last 8 feet.
I can adjust this speed by adjusting counterweight on the fire curtain arbor. If I remove too much counterweight - to make the curtain drop faster - the arbor wants to slam the top of it's track , so there's sort of a 'sweet spot'.
Also I never allow anyone to block the path of the fire curtain. We often have big shows in the theatre that hate moving their stuff to accomodate this, but I don't care. 
My fire curtain is the type with a thin hemp rope and weight securing the hand line. It is supposed to burn through and release the curtain in the event of a fire-similar to a fusible link. If a fire starts overnight when no one's watching, that curtain needs to be able to function. That may be unlikely, but when a theatre is crammed full of hastily set-up gear anything is possible.


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## derekleffew (Apr 24, 2009)

WesternTD said:


> ...the type with a thin hemp rope and weight securing the hand line. It is supposed to burn through and release the curtain in the event of a fire. ...


There are most-likely some fusible links connecting that 3/8"? hemp line. Designed to release at a specific temperature, much more dependable, and early-acting, than hemp burning through.


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## WesternTD (Apr 24, 2009)

That makes a lot more sense - I'm going to search for those tomorrow - thanks!
Edit: that took about 3 seconds, there they are.


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## derekleffew (Apr 28, 2009)

Some possibly (likely) pertinent information from the ESTA Standards Watch newsletter:

> On April 21 the ANSI Board of Standards Review approved two more ESTA documents as American National Standards:
> 
> *ANSI E1.4 - 2009, Entertainment Technology - Manual Counterweight Rigging Systems,* describes the design and construction of manually powered counterweight rigging systems to help assure the safety of these system. The standard does not cover motorized systems, systems for flying performers, or systems used for moving materials during building construction.
> 
> ...


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## photoatdv (Apr 29, 2009)

Yeah ours will fall fast then slow down a few feet up... I've seen it fall way too many times... High school.. "hey what does that ring/rope do? Let's find out!" Some idiots... shrug.


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## lieperjp (May 5, 2009)

photoatdv said:


> Yeah ours will fall fast then slow down a few feet up... I've seen it fall way too many times... High school.. "hey what does that ring/rope do? Let's find out!" Some idiots... shrug.



Is access to a fire curtain not allowed to have a "In Case of Emergency Break Glass" or "In Case of Emergency Lift the Plastic Cover and Then Pull Alarm" box over it?


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## MircleWorker (May 5, 2009)

I'll lower it each year to test it's opperation, and also our custodial crew cleans our cats by using leaf blowers. having it down keeps dust off rigging and softgoods.


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