# Hog vs GrandMA?



## Thomas

I need to buy a new console soon. Very soon. I’m torn between HogIII or GrandMA, both of them in their PC instances. Hog is pretty much a standard around here, but a lot of the bigger companies are moving to GrandMA- I’m from a Martin background, using ProScenium first (yes, in a theatre setting), and then LightJockey in recent years (Doing events etc). LightJockey is a joke, no doubt about it, but it can do what you want quickly. I haven't used Hog or GrandMA myself, but they're both serious consoles, and that's the object of the exercise.

I like the Ethernet part of the GrandMA onPC, but don’t trust Ethernet- hell, I can’t get my i-Tech amps to do much either- so I’m more comfortable running DMX cable, especially since I’ve got a really good wireless system already. GrandMA comes with a visualizer, and that's all good, but I don't use LightJockey's visualizer either, so that doesn't really make my day any brighter. Hog has to be fed into WYSIWYG or Visual Sweden, and I don't want to spend money on that just yet. Another plug on GrandMA is the 1-in-1-out function, so I can still stick a manual desk on the line to rock my generics, although at the same time I usually run two separate DMX lines for that anyway- as a redundant backup system.

So, questions of price aside, who recommends what, and why?


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## avkid

i-Tech is a horrible example of Ethernet control protocol in entertainment.
They belong at the trade in counter of your local Crown dealer.


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## lighttechie5948

does anyone know of a Hog offline editor to play around on??


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## soundlight

lighttechie5948 said:


> does anyone know of a Hog offline editor to play around on??



You can download Hog III PC from the Flying Pig Systems download page.


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## Thomas

Well, that doesn't really answer any of my questions, but thanks anyway guys.


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## soundlight

I'll put my vote in for Hog. We use their PC solution at school for various moving light demos and shows and what not, and it's very stable. We're able to Remote Desktop in to the host computer and control it with relatively low latency from the stage (computer with the USB>DMX widget is in the booth, connected in to the DMX input for the theatre). The software doesn't seem to slow down the computer at all (can't tell you the specs of our comp, but it's pretty good). If you've used a hog console before, you know how it is, fairly easy layout. I would say that you should get an X-Keys and use the Hog Layout to do your programming, it helps alot. A trackball (my favorite) is also a great asset for moving fixtures around.


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## sound_nerd

If all you want is a straight answer with no questions asked, MA. Make sure to get some sort of hardware interface though, otherwise pc based lighting can really be a drag*.
Even a couple touch screens might do the trick I suppose.



*No computer pun intended.


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## len

The first question I have is always:

is this for you to use or will you rent it out to others? If it's just you, then get the one you're most used to, best price, features, etc. 

But if it's for rentals, or for a venue where there are a lot of visiting LD, you have to get what THEY like and what will be the most profitable. That could be an Avo or a Hog or a MA or a bunch of switches on a homemade wooden box.


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## Grog12

MA 4tw...I've used both and really like the MA better. MA ethernet is simple to use and simple to wire together with other MA consoles. But sound nerd is right, make sure to get a programming wing of some sorts no matter which way you go. Straight programming on a computer is slow and tedious.

The question I have for you is why a PC instance and not a real board?


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## DarSax

Based on the amount I've heard MA's going out or being used on big tours, compared to the amount that the Hog's done the same, I'd have to say MA, hands down. People swear by it, but I've yet to really hear anyone swear by a HogIII (with the iPC or Road Hog available now, maybe it'll draw more people, who knows). I remember that one of the lighting mags did a feature on how the HogIII interface is finally getting accepted as usable (I've heard it used to have compatability issues, or bugs, or whatever). 

Again though, I'd have to refer back to the earlier posters (too lazy to look), about who's going to be using it, and why not the actual hardware, just the PC version? (I'm probably preaching to the choir, but have you considered something like the GrandMA pico?)


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## sound_nerd

Another option is the Avolites Diamond 4PC....check it out!


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## soundlight

There's also the Jands Vista system to consider for computer-based systems, and jands has put out some control surfaces for their computer-based version of the Vista console recently. Also, check out Chamsys' PC solution, they have programming/playback wings to suit any need.


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## Thomas

Right, now I'm getting answers!

Ok, I need the console for myself. I like the laptop for many reasons. One is that it's mine. And it's smaller than a console most of the time. Preference I guess. 
So it's me who'll be using it, exclusively.

Any more ideas?


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## derekleffew

My vote is for the grandMA over the Hog3, every time. When doing a full-size, top of the line console comparison, the grandMA wins in every important category, except price. As for the PC versions, see this thread. Since it's only for yourself, compatibility and what others think doesn't really matter, so check out this product, as a low cost alternative, discussion here.


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## jrdeamicis

I really enjoy the gMA, the onPc can be clumsy at times if you come from programming a board version of it works great. Shortcuts in the ONpc are easily set to anything you would like.

Moving onto the DMX-out part of gMA on PC I think there is 2 different types of Nodes, 1-universe and 2- universe. Which is easily expanded by well... adding more boxes or NSP's. OnPC has no issue linking up with the boards or the rest of the network (as long as your version is the same). 

And 1 universe of DMX is cheap in comparison to some of the other options for the same price point. However the clumsyness of not having a console is a major deciding factor.


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## Jby007

My vote is for the hog for PC it run's the same way as the console does and its kind of hard to fit the 5 foot MA on even a 30 inch cpu screen or smaller like a laptop but if you were buying the console grand MA all the way.


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## derekleffew

Jby007 said:


> My vote is for the hog the PC it run's the same way as the console does and its kind of hard to fit the 5 foot MA on even a 30 inch cpu screen or smaller like a laptop but if you were buying the console grand MA all the way


Jby007, on your computer's keyboard, on the same key as the "*>*" is a thing called a *period* ("hard-stop" for those speaking English). You might have used it in the past on a lighting desk to insert "point" cues.

Try using this little dot, at the end of a thought*.*
And just to be wise, the letter that follows, *C*apitalize.
Whether for or against Obama*,* use the comma.
Nothing rhymes with apostrophe!


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## highschooltech

Here's the thing, if you were buying the actual console than the GrandMA wins. For the software the hog wins. It is much more stable and works well enough that KC and the Sunshine band actually tour with the hog 3 running on a pc, granted with the programing and play back wings.


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## Pie4Weebl

highschooltech said:


> Here's the thing, if you were buying the actual console than the GrandMA wins. For the software the hog wins. It is much more stable and works well enough that KC and the Sunshine band actually tour with the hog 3 running on a pc, granted with the programing and play back wings.


ooh, I did not know having KC and the sunshine band using a product was a staple of excellence. Considering their rider also calls for mac 500's I don't think that says too much.


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## highschooltech

No, not a staple of excellence just a helpful real world story.


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## SerraAva

Hog 3 has come a long way since it first came out. It use to have major issues with crashes, but not any more. And with each update, they add more and more features to the line.

The other nice part about the Hog pieces, you can use them on any and all of the consoles in the Hog 3 family. Screens, widgets, wings, etc. So there is no real wasted money if you buy Hog PC and say a couple of touch screens, a USB Widget, and a Super Widget. All that stuff can be used on the Road Hog, IPC, Road Hog Full Boar, or Hog 3.

More or less, it comes down to what you like more. I prefer a Hog over a Ma, but that is me, not you. Download the offline editor for the Ma, and download Hog PC and goof around with both. We can sit here and say this is good about this one but that is great about that one till we are all blue in the face, or in this case get a case of arthritis. What really matters is what works for you, they are both good consoles and console lines and nether will do you wrong.


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## jrdeamicis

highschooltech said:


> No, not a staple of excellence just a helpful real world story.



Well its def a story. Lol


Pie4Weebl said:


> ooh, I did not know having KC and the sunshine band using a product was a staple of excellence. Considering their rider also calls for mac 500's I don't think that says too much.



Am I a flashlight or am I a MAC 500?


highschooltech said:


> Here's the thing, if you were buying the actual console than the GrandMA wins. For the software the hog wins. It is much more stable and works well enough that KC and the Sunshine band actually tour with the hog 3 running on a pc, granted with the programing and play back wings.



More stable? Have we forgetten what gMA runs on.

VxWorks - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I am developing right now a external keyboard that has the layout of a grandMA light console which each key will be setup to work with the onPC as a console. Also with the ONPC any touch screen will work with the program. Though its multi monitor setup could be a massaged a bit.



The grandma line is very comparable to the hog line, but I really enjoy the grandma. Its fun to program on, its easy to use, and its REALLY powerful. I would just buy a used light and use onpc with the light and hook up two touch screens. 3 touch screens + two externals and use a DMX board as an external fader for the console. Talk about budget. 

OnPC
Two touch screens
1 NSI 48 channel console
1 Dmx Node 2 channel.

Now thats a budget console.

Voila.


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## soundlight

Pie4Weebl said:


> ooh, I did not know having KC and the sunshine band using a product was a staple of excellence. Considering their rider also calls for mac 500's I don't think that says too much.



How old was that rider? They've been using 550s for a while now, at least on this past tour if not the one before that, and they carry fixtures with them. Also, hogPC? When they came through 2 months ago or so, the LD used an Avo Pearl Expert.


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## highschooltech

So they did get a new board. I know their monitor guy and he works with one of my bosses and he was talking to the LD about buying the hog pc and several mac2ks off of KC. Anyways in the pc version i still like the hog over the grandMA but if it were the console then i would go grandMA.

Edit:
Actually two or three months ago was when they were selling off the gear and i haven't talked to them since then.


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## soundlight

highschooltech said:


> So they did get a new board. I know their monitor guy and he works with one of my bosses and he was talking to the LD about buying the hog pc and several mac2ks off of KC. Anyways in the pc version i still like the hog over the grandMA but if it were the console then i would go grandMA.
> 
> Edit:
> Actually two or three months ago was when they were selling off the gear and i haven't talked to them since then.



To the best of my knowledge, they've never had MAC2Ks. And KC has been touring with the Avo for a while. I talked with Derek a while back, and he said that KC opened for an act at his venue, and they had the Pearl, and the LD didn't know how to operate a hog! So both of those seem to be busted ideas.


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## Pie4Weebl

soundlight said:


> How old was that rider? They've been using 550s for a while now, at least on this past tour if not the one before that, and they carry fixtures with them. Also, hogPC? When they came through 2 months ago or so, the LD used an Avo Pearl Expert.


the show was two or three weeks ago, and yeah they wanted an avo on the show.


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## soundlight

Pie4Weebl said:


> the show was two or three weeks ago, and yeah they wanted an avo on the show.



And they weren't carrying their own lighting? Was it a fly-in? Do you have 550s in stock? If you don't have 550s, I'd assume that 500s would be the second choice. But if you have 550s, I don't see why they'd want 500s.


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## Pie4Weebl

soundlight said:


> And they weren't carrying their own lighting? Was it a fly-in? Do you have 550s in stock? If you don't have 550s, I'd assume that 500s would be the second choice. But if you have 550s, I don't see why they'd want 500s.


they carried their own movers so I only glanced at that part of the plot briefly, so they may very well had been 550s.


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## soundlight

Pie4Weebl said:


> they carried their own movers so I only glanced at that part of the plot briefly, so they may very well had been 550s.



They're definitely 550s, the LD has been using them almost ever since they came out, apparently. We had them through at Bucknell less than 2 months ago, as I said.


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## Pie4Weebl

soundlight said:


> They're definitely 550s, the LD has been using them almost ever since they came out, apparently. We had them through at Bucknell less than 2 months ago, as I said.


congrats, you win at the internet.

Still low end fixtures either way which was my original point that they are not a huge deal, nor a staple of excellence in the world.


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## soundlight

Pie4Weebl said:


> congrats, you win at the internet.
> 
> Still low end fixtures either way which was my original point that they are not a huge deal, nor a staple of excellence in the world.



...and as much as I like Avos, how many bands tour with an Avo Pearl?


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## Thomas

THERE ARE PEOPLE ON THE INTERNET WHO ARE **WRONG** hahahaha. Himesh Reshammiya (A Bollywood popstar) tours with a Pearl. Or rather, his LD specifies one. Along with Parcan hell, 16 ACLs, 8 8-light moles and 8 Cyberlight CXs. Hahaha.

This thread has been going on for far too long. And funnily enough, I've still not bought a desk. BUT I have been using a Pearl. A lot! :-D

EDIT: I've bought a Martin Freekie.


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## derekleffew

Thomas said:


> ...EDIT: I've bought a Martin Freekie.


My condolences.


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## jrdeamicis

Talk about off topic


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## TimMiller

There are lots of bands that want the avo. The ones i can think of off the top of my head is, terri clark, saliva, lamafia, spice girls, chris brown, justin timberlake, (lots of touring dance shows), cold play, eric clapton just to name a few.


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## rosebudld

you can download Hog iPC3 to play with off line on their site I believe..


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## rosebudld

As a House LD I've encountered the Hog III and Grand MA frequently on riders or with visiting LDs coming in for the show.. I like the Grand MA way better.. I've personally used the Jands Vista T4 and would definitely consider for myself getting the PC version with fader wings for conventionals. Also, several riders ask for AVOs that I've looked at like Air Supply, REO, and The Oakridge Boys guy travels with his AVO Pearl..


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## jrdeamicis

rosebudld said:


> As a House LD I've encountered the Hog III and Grand MA frequently on riders or with visiting LDs coming in for the show.. I like the Grand MA way better.. I've personally used the Jands Vista T4 and would definitely consider for myself getting the PC version with fader wings for conventionals. Also, several riders ask for AVOs that I've looked at like Air Supply, REO, and The Oakridge Boys guy travels with his AVO Pearl..



That oakridge boy avo must have been recent. When he came to my house, "boots" was the man and he ran everything off of our express. Totally a great guy to work for. 

The jands board is a cooooool board. I really like it, but I need more seat time to see what it does.


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## rosebudld

jrdeamicis said:


> That oakridge boy avo must have been recent. When he came to my house, "boots" was the man and he ran everything off of our express. Totally a great guy to work for.
> 
> The jands board is a cooooool board. I really like it, but I need more seat time to see what it does.


yeah Boots was awesome to work with, and it was last October, and he was traveling with it so didn't run off our Expression 3 (don't blame him really) it was for their xmas tour last year.. as for the Jands we've used it a couple of times and it's Linux based which is really nice even though I've seen it do a kind of crash once.. it's really cool how you can literally drag and drop to assign buttons, faders, etc. on the main screen to set up the whole console in a matter of minutes.. it makes it really easy to run a show on the fly.


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## SerraAva

Agreed, the Vista is a great console. I spec it for all the higher end stuff I do, but I make sure to have two for when the one crashes .


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## jrdeamicis

rosebudld said:


> yeah Boots was awesome to work with, and it was last October, and he was traveling with it so didn't run off our Expression 3 (don't blame him really) it was for their xmas tour last year.. as for the Jands we've used it a couple of times and it's Linux based which is really nice even though I've seen it do a kind of crash once.. it's really cool how you can literally drag and drop to assign buttons, faders, etc. on the main screen to set up the whole console in a matter of minutes.. it makes it really easy to run a show on the fly.



How funny, he hit my theater for the x-mas tour also. 

There is something VERY un-nerving about a board that crashes. I want them to work out some of the issues and make it just a great board. 

And of course there is always the MA sitting there, holding its place in the high end world.


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## TimMiller

I want to say the hog III is acutally linux based, if i remember what brad told me correctly.


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## rosebudld

Yeah it was weird.. every light kept on doing to same program, but the board crashed.. surprised since it was Linux based.. and yeah the MA is just awesome..


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## rosebudld

TimMiller said:


> I want to say the hog III is acutally linux based, if i remember what brad told me correctly.



I thought it was Windows embedded.. I'll check again..


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## SerraAva

Hog III is Linux. Road Hog, Road Hog Full Boar, Hog IPC, and Hog PC are all Windows.


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## thenelsontwins

GEEARGH! 

I think we all know my thoughts on the HOG III (II, ipc, road hog, whatever). 

But at the risk of angering everyone on here and their delicate sensibilities, I will go ahead and beg all of you to stop promoting the HOG in any of its incarnations. (ha, I know, let the hate mail begin)

It makes me die inside a little each time. Worst...desks...ever. They were garbage in 1995 as the HOG500/1000 and they are still garbage today. 

If those are your two choices... then the Grand MA all the way. 

Of course, I am a total sucker for the Jands Vista, which the S1 control surface would be perfect for your application, but of course, I invite an onslaught of criticism upon myself for outwardly hating all things HOG related.


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## TechiGoz

Hi All

Not sure if this post has been answered fully, but I just wanted to throw my two cents in.

I've used both Hog and MA, actually started with Hog, and used both their PC versions for shows. I am now a full time, nothing else, MA user. It wins hands down. Sure it may not have 1 or two features that the Hog has, but thats all been fixed in the MA Series 2. 

For functionality, reliability, flexability and the ethernet/fiber backbones you can build with it, MA wins and walks all over hog. Thats my opinion anyway. 

So if you haven't bought your console yet, enjoy the wonders of MA and go grab one!


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## iLightTheStage

Personally, I like the GrandMA MUCH better than the hog. Much more power behind it. I've taken both Hog and GrandMA classes, and after the GrandMA class, that's all I want to use, although because of budgets, I'm very often stuck with an iPC. 

If you get an NSP for the MA dmx interface, it handles the calculations for broadcasting the DMX, so it is less strain on your computer's processor. You are basically attaching another computer to your laptop to help it out. 

I would highly recommend just getting an actual desk (grandMA pico or lite) and make it available for rental when you aren't using it. Making subrentals of it to rental shops can help offset the cost of ownership.


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## hercthx

So, questions of price aside, who recommends what, and why?
hello i am a board operater fo the tv show Stargate, We had been running grand ma's but lately we here have been running a hog 3 on all our stages, during the last season of stargate atlantis we ran both a grand ma and a hog 3. and we have found that when it comes to runing a show with the programing "in the can" so to speak that the grand ma performs quite well, however when it comes to on the fly programming the hog 3 does produce the lighting state you need much quicker. 
on a tv show i am pretty much programing and updating live all day as we go thru the scenes, and as time is money they want me to be able to produce different lighting states constantly as fast as possible. after switching from a grand ma to a hog 3 i found that my programing times have been almost halved! what used to take me 15-20 mins to set up, now only take me 10-15mins(keeping in mind that I am lighting a whole **** spacship)! in summary i must conclude that for preprogramed shows grand ma is a wonderfull tool, however for on the fly speed i must tip my hat to the hog 3. 

it impressed our d.o.p. so much that after us using a hog for season 1, the hog was demanded and even twinned for season 2. hope this helps


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## hercthx

thenelsontwins said:


> GEEARGH!
> 
> I think we all know my thoughts on the HOG III (II, ipc, road hog, whatever).
> 
> But at the risk of angering everyone on here and their delicate sensibilities, I will go ahead and beg all of you to stop promoting the HOG in any of its incarnations. (ha, I know, let the hate mail begin)
> 
> It makes me die inside a little each time. Worst...desks...ever. They were garbage in 1995 as the HOG500/1000 and they are still garbage today.


no hate mail here!
but actauly back in 95 ther were no hog 500/1000 that was the Jands series 500/600 wich used the hog 1 software platfrom you are refering to and yes they were a pain to work on towards the end of their life cycle however around here the hog 2 was the console of choise if you were not running an avolite or compulite and in some case you were running them together!! accualy as i remember pretty much all the network record tours ( brian adams, Sarah Mc, tragicaly hip, bnl,etc) all used hog 2's, hell at most of the festivals I go to I see the old dogs still running their 2's. the hog 2 keep in the mid to late nintey's was a very powerfull and capable desk.( in fact most notable touring ops ran a hog 2 or pearl or compulite back in the day) but also remember that in the begining the hog 2 was origional designed to be an automated lighting desk so was usualy run in tandum with a conventional desk, it was only thru time that people began to use the hog more and more multipurposfuly. now with the hog 3 you have a hog desk that is more tllted towards multi use. 

there is nothing wrong with the grand ma as it is also a very powerful tool but to say that the ma is superiour or to say the same of hog is rediculious. it is tantamount to saying that coke is better then pepsi or vise versa! they are both excelt and top of the line products. that can produce the same result. the decision reall comes down to cost vs. astetics. the hog is less expencive, while the grand ma features more bells and whistles. but both perform to the same standards. please note i am refering to the hog 3 variant only, as the ipc and roadhog are for similar yet different applications.

praising the Hog or the MA is not promotions, different desks work for different people. it really is down to the application. different desks are more suited for different jobs. like having a good wrench some perfer stanley, some mastercraft! so just like back in the day when the argument was avolite vs. compulite vs. hog, the truth was they all worked well its all down to the money you want to spend and the features that you want on hand. 

BTW windows, and Coke, are my picks for the other 2 likewised arguments haha


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## jxgriffi

I agree with Hercthx....

Consoles ALL do the SAME THING...spit out DMX. It's the interface and the person behind the console that makes all the difference.

Hog/Ma/Vista...whatever. It's purely a personal preference. I have run most of the majors out there...Hog, Ma I and II, Virt, Vista, Avo....and, I always come back to my Hogs. I've been a Hog3 owner for 8 years and for my time and money, I can build fastest on that. 

And that's what it comes down to...what are you going to be fastest on and most proficient with? Then that's your console.

I have endured many many many debates about what console is the best. And, the truth, as has been stated, it's all in the eyes of the person sitting behind it. Some people only play with GrandMa's (1 or 2) and won't touch anything else like it's beneath them. Some people are the same with Hogs. I'm being paid as a programmer. When they ask me what desks I know, I tell them. When they ask me what I PREFER, I tell them a Hog3. If they tell me they have an Avo or a Vista or a Ma or whatever, I do my best to learn that console as well as I can to be the best programmer I can for them.

I'm not sure why some people hate Hogs the way that's been described, but I don't see it. I own 3 different Hog setups and have installed many others. Sorry they don't have the fun to run the consoles....

Hope it helps....


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## kendal69

My two cents. After reading many, many posts on consoles lately ans I do mean hundreds what I found is people are leaving the HOG systems for a variety of reasons.

GrandMa was my next choice but when I was referred to the GrandM forum I read nothing but problem after problem. Yes I know people generally don't come to a forum to rave about a product but in all my reading I only found trouble questions.

I did a Demo on the Martin M1 and that will be my next console. The touch screen will let you fly through your work and all the built in windows along with the amazing customization is just what I'm looking for. 

The product is hitting the shores of the USA as I type. 

No I'm affiliated with them.


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## Robert James

I am going to try the Hog on PC now but in two weeks I had the MA onPC up and running two Chauvet rogues and two PAR LED's. It also took over the 96 other dimmers my ETC 2496 was already controlling. It was pretty sweet. I connected two monitors to the laptop, vga and usb-to-vga. The latency was normal but not when executing and that I think is key. I am in the same boat between MA vs Hog. If you are near a dealer like AVDB or Barbizon go talk to them. They can even have a quick Demo if you give them a heads up. I borrowed the Chauvets and an MA 2port node 512. That's the dongle to connect to the universe for MA like the Hog DMX usb box. As long as you dont use a patch cable (unless you are networked in). I missed that part in the setup. I was amazed at how fast and easy the MA was to setup.


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