# Fire Dept. / False Fire Alarms



## photoatdv (Feb 10, 2010)

Okay, I'm confused. I know most places (commercial buildings) they'll call the fire department if there's some reason to think there might be a fire. Just like one might (and is often told) to call the police if there's reason to believe they MIGHT be needed. Everyone says better safe than sorry... which makes sense. But then the fire department will fine a theatre if the alarm goes off because of haze/ fog.

So basically my question is when would they fine a theatre/ other building? I know (at least most places) the fire department is funded by taxes, so it's free if there's a fire or something.


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## cprted (Feb 10, 2010)

It's not a fine, it's a service charge. In most areas the police have a similar charge for responding to false alarms.


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## philhaney (Feb 10, 2010)

I've worked at (non-theatre) places where the burglar alarm kept false alarming. The first time the cops came out we got a warning. After that we got fined. I'm sure the fines are not to fund anything. The city/county has to spend the cost of the fine (in our case $100 per incident) or more just to process the paperwork generated to fine us and handle the check we paid it with.

The fine is supposed to be a motivator to get you/us/we/them to fix the faulty alarm. Without some sort of negative motivation, like a fine, most places won't take care of the problem and the police or fire dept. will just have to keep responding to false alarms.

They don't have the luxury of not responding because we always have false alarms because this time it might be real...


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## MNicolai (Feb 10, 2010)

cprted said:


> It's not a fine, it's a service charge. In most areas the police have a similar charge for responding to false alarms.



Whatever you choose to call it, it exists as a fee to be paid by the entity at fault for the alarm. I think the question is more intended to figure out under which circumstances do you take a hit on that, and in which circumstances does it get waived.

I think a lot of it is based on fault. As a general rule, a fee exists to deter building owners from having faulty or inadequate alarm systems that regularly distract emergency services with false alarms. This is usually why security companies will contact an owner/representative for the building in question before contacting emergency services. If the calls always went directly to the emergency services, the owners would get charged for numerous false alarms, and the piling up "service charges" would be reason enough to the system fixed so it didn't trip false alarms as often.

Why should the fire department be responsible for responding regularly to your theatre's events just because you had the wrong fire protection system installed that does not fit your venue's needs and provides false alarms during regular occupancy and use?


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## Les (Feb 10, 2010)

photoatdv said:


> Okay, I'm confused. I know most places (commercial buildings) they'll call the fire department if there's some reason to think there might be a fire. Just like one might (and is often told) to call the police if there's reason to believe they MIGHT be needed.



Usually it's the fire protection system that automatically calls the fire department, much like a home or commercial security system. The building occupants rarely if ever have control over this, since they can not without any shadow of a doubt verify that there is in fact no fire. The building must be 'cleared' by the fire department in the event of a false alarm/smoke investigation. This is why it costs money. This is the same reason haze and fog costs money when they trip an alarm. Because in a large building, it is very hard to rule out coincidence. There could just so happen to be an actual fire somewhere at that same exact time, so normal 'all-clear' procedures must be adhered to.


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## Edrick (Feb 10, 2010)

Most firealarm systems have a set time that you can verify that there is in fact a fire before it sends an alarm. So say a smoke went off it would then go into a waiting period (trouble advisory) for some amount of time (I don't believe it's that long). If a second smoke is set off or a pullstation is activated then it will instantly send an alarm. If no action is taken it'll also send one however if you verify there is no fire before this waiting period it wont make the call.

You should see if your system has this.


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## shiben (Feb 23, 2010)

MNicolai said:


> Whatever you choose to call it, it exists as a fee to be paid by the entity at fault for the alarm. I think the question is more intended to figure out under which circumstances do you take a hit on that, and in which circumstances does it get waived.
> 
> I think a lot of it is based on fault. As a general rule, a fee exists to deter building owners from having faulty or inadequate alarm systems that regularly distract emergency services with false alarms. This is usually why security companies will contact an owner/representative for the building in question before contacting emergency services. If the calls always went directly to the emergency services, the owners would get charged for numerous false alarms, and the piling up "service charges" would be reason enough to the system fixed so it didn't trip false alarms as often.
> 
> Why should the fire department be responsible for responding regularly to your theatre's events just because you had the wrong fire protection system installed that does not fit your venue's needs and provides false alarms during regular occupancy and use?



The really loved it when our dorm fire alarm kept going off. Standard response for a dorm is 9 engines and a ladder truck, apparently. Found that out on 4 separate occasions at 3AM last year. Course, its a good thing they do come because we actually had a dorm fire this summer, due to someone throwing a burning thing they were trying to cook on the stove into the garbage can (and we let these people drive cars and stuff), which turns out, when you throw flaming things into it, it also catches fire. Fortunately, I was not the one on duty in the building where the alarm went off and didnt have to organize the evacuation of several hundred half-asleep conferences.


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## SHARYNF (Feb 23, 2010)

It depends on what state/city you live in recently some locations are starting to bill you for ANY response emergency or not, so folks have been shocked to get a several thousand dollar bill after a real fire.

Sharyn


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## GreyWyvern (Feb 23, 2010)

It seems to me that insurance would cover that.


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## SHARYNF (Feb 23, 2010)

Most insurance policies were written in the day that the assumption was that fire department services were paid for out of general taxes. They typically pay for repairs, but some of the local fire departments have decided to try to bill the insurance companies. If the company refuses to pay (which these days seems to be the first reply for every bill presented to some insurance companies) you the homeowner are on the hook. Plus as is typical with some claims, the group submitting the claim (fire department in this case) send the bill to the Recepient of the service)

Anyway just an interesting situation

Sharyn


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## tomed101 (Feb 24, 2010)

In QLD Australia, the fine is very hefty. Its close to $1000 AUD if they are called (either by phone or by an automated dialer on an alarm) and there is no fire.


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## MNicolai (Feb 24, 2010)

tomed101 said:


> In QLD Australia, the fine is very hefty. Its close to $1000 AUD if they are called (either by phone or by an automated dialer on an alarm) and there is no fire.



$1000 AUD ≈ $890 USD

I bet you have far fewer false alarms as a result. Here in the States I've usually seen it as $50 to $100 per call. In Australia, a single false alarm is definitely worth the cost of fixing a faulty one or preventing accidental trips, whereas here the fine isn't remotely comparable to the cost of having someone fix an alarm system that has faulty trips semi-regularly.


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## shiben (Feb 24, 2010)

SHARYNF said:


> It depends on what state/city you live in recently some locations are starting to bill you for ANY response emergency or not, so folks have been shocked to get a several thousand dollar bill after a real fire.
> 
> Sharyn



You know, one would think that protecting places from Fire would be a general service kind of thing, something that the community probably ought to pay for... In my hometown we have a donation-funded volunteer fire department, and it has a great track record. One would think that in a big city though, tax dollars should pay for that.


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## wmheath (Feb 24, 2010)

We did a show where we had to have fireworks as well as open flame. The best thing to do is to get the fire department involved. Sometimes you can even call the alarm company or your station to let them know there may be false alarms, and trust me, they understand. As far as the commercial systems go, they do have delays for trouble silence and a delay between the alarm and notification. Just grab the keys to the system, push ACK or trouble silence (only if you KNOW there is no fire) and that should solve your problem.


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## Les (Feb 24, 2010)

The catch is, how do you _know_ there is no fire? Telling everyone on here how to silence a system like this might not be a good practice. What does everyone else think?

And for fireworks on stage, don't you need a pyro certification to do that?

Yes I am playing devil's advocate today


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## tomed101 (Feb 25, 2010)

MNicolai said:


> $1000 AUD ≈ $890 USD
> 
> I bet you have far fewer false alarms as a result. Here in the States I've usually seen it as $50 to $100 per call. In Australia, a single false alarm is definitely worth the cost of fixing a faulty one or preventing accidental trips, whereas here the fine isn't remotely comparable to the cost of having someone fix an alarm system that has faulty trips semi-regularly.



We don't have many alarms. Most venues have alarms which are isolated when smoke/haze is used, and have varying procedures for isolation to ensure the safety of all involved. Usually an alarm in the theatre would be because someone forgot to isolate but due to the high costs thats uncommon. As far as I am aware, most colleges/student accommodation has contracts specifying that the costs are passed on to the tenant because the average joe burning toast is very very shocked to hear that they are up for $1000...


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## tjrobb (Mar 1, 2010)

At our aud. we can silence the horns (thank goodness), but must call the FD to let them know it was a false trip. Regardless, all that means is they put away the axes and turn off the sirens. They still must perform a fire search just in case. Problem is we have only two minutes between tripping and the FD showing up...

The FD cannot just walk away, they have to assume the worse.


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## shiben (Mar 2, 2010)

tjrobb said:


> At our aud. we can silence the horns (thank goodness), but must call the FD to let them know it was a false trip. Regardless, all that means is they put away the axes and turn off the sirens. They still must perform a fire search just in case. Problem is we have only two minutes between tripping and the FD showing up...
> 
> The FD cannot just walk away, they have to assume the worse.



Hooray for heat activated alarms? I think the worst venue-fire safety malfunction we have ever had was at my old job someone was driving a skyjack around to its home in the utility room basement, and jacked a sprinkler head with their head. Not only were they laid out with a bleeding head, the sprinkler system then proceeded to empty its contents into the basement. The fire marshall then approved and the college installed a manual sprinkler cut off in case of similar situations that trips the fire alarms when its activated... not sure how exactly that got approved... Seems like installing cages over the sprinkler heads would be more cost effective and safe...


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## tjrobb (Mar 4, 2010)

Sprinkler shutoffs are related to proper facilities training. As part of the facilities department I am allowed to shut down the water flow ONLY IF I AM POSITIVE IT IS A FALSE TRIP. Otherwise I get a massive fine and everyone hates me for burning down the building...

We learned this after we had a head freeze and fail one year. At that time we assumed we had to let it run.

In all it is best to let the facilities department deal with this. If nothing else they are staff and won't cause unusual issues with improper response.


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## gcpsoundlight (Mar 5, 2010)

2 Things - 

In Melbourne, Aus. If an emergancy service (Police, Fire, Ambos) is called there is a charge BUT in a lot of cases insurance will pay. The Ambulance service is the only service to have yearly insurance available that means you pay zip if you use it. The typical callout is for Fire is about AUD $350 per truck (About $300 USD), so you could imagine that 4-5 trucks turning up to a big-ish venue would not be loose change.

Also, wmheath, that should be something the pyro handles, and only just before it is needed. most venues will in the state of Victoria will bar or prosecute people who do this sort of thing, even their head techs.


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## kiwitechgirl (Mar 6, 2010)

shiben said:


> Hooray for heat activated alarms? I think the worst venue-fire safety malfunction we have ever had was at my old job someone was driving a skyjack around to its home in the utility room basement, and jacked a sprinkler head with their head. Not only were they laid out with a bleeding head, the sprinkler system then proceeded to empty its contents into the basement. The fire marshall then approved and the college installed a manual sprinkler cut off in case of similar situations that trips the fire alarms when its activated... not sure how exactly that got approved... Seems like installing cages over the sprinkler heads would be more cost effective and safe...



We had something similar where a muppet of a crew member drove a scissor lift into a sprinkler head and snapped it off....lots of water. I also managed to flood our foyer at work when I rigged a Pacific a bit too close to a sprinkler head for a party (although we've since discovered that the "lighting bars" are actually suspended from the sprinkler pipes above the ceiling!!) and after about 3 hours the sprinkler got warm enough to trigger. The fire brigade turned up - four trucks, although the second pair drove past, got told by the first arriving fire guys that it was a sprinkler issue and went back to the station - and shut the sprinkler off and silenced the alarm (and then we gave them cake - it was a birthday party!). 600 litres of water got pumped out (over about 12-13 minutes), and we reckon there was probably another 100 in the carpet which took 3 days to dry....they put a 68 celsius degree head in to replace the 59 degree head which had triggered - the service tech commented that he thought they should probably all be switched out at some point. No-one remembers the sprinklers going off before - and we've been in the building for over 30 years - so my theory is that we were testing the system!


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