# Crimp connector / Crimper



## Charc

First order of business:

SPC / stage pin / 2P&G ?! What do I call it? Everyone seems to say something different... 

Anyways, I was walking through lowes today, and found the klein tools. I noticed that right next to them were a bunch of 10/12AWG crimp on connectors, uh, connector things?

It occurs to me that this is most likely the safest and fastest way for me to rewire stage pin connectors. I was going to pick up a pack to try out, but I can't for the life of me recall the diameter of the screw in a stage pin connector. The choices were #10 Stud, 1/4", 3/8". Are home depot brand crimp on connectors adequate for the job, or should I be recommending a different brand?

What about the process of crimping on the wires? Strip 1/4" or so, stick it in the connector, and squeeze crimper? Any other technique to it?

Some of our stage pins have this weird flat piece on the pins, I'm not sure what that's for.

What should I be looking for in a crimper? Are there any smallish crimpers? The Klein all-in-one tool I looked at was a monster.


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## derekleffew

charcoaldabs said:


> ...SPC / stage pin / 2P&G ?! What do I call it? Everyone seems to say something different...


Call it anything except a "stage plug." See this thread... (well I can't find it, but it was the one where JD argued with me about calling a 2P&G a "stage plug." We really need a better search engine, perhaps in v3.0?)
[EDIT: Only took 4+ years, but I found it! https://www.controlbooth.com/threads/quality-dmx-cable-and-pin-connectors.5697/ , post #43 and subsequents.]

charcoaldabs said:


> Anyways, I was walking through lowes today, and found the klein tools. I noticed that right next to them were a bunch of 10/12AWG crimp on connectors, uh, connector things?


Need 3x "Uninsulated Crimp-On Ring Terminals" for the modern 2P&G. Unless you have the older pin connectors that need two right angle ring terminals for the hot and neutral and a straight terminal for the ground. A brand name that has become like Leko and Kleenex is "Sta-Kon,"


charcoaldabs said:


> It occurs to me that this is most likely the safest and fastest way for me to rewire stage pin connectors. I was going to pick up a pack to try out, but I can't for the life of me recall the diameter of the screw in a stage pin connector. The choices were #10 Stud, 1/4", 3/8". Are home depot brand crimp on connectors adequate for the job, or should I be recommending a different brand?


Just to make it more difficult for you McMaster-Carr online catalog, page 719, Part#7113K823, The screw is actually an 8-32, so a 6-8 will work, but I wouldn't go larger than that. If you have older connectors, as I said above, you'll need the "Ring Flag Terminals," page, 721, Part#3125K68. Note these are only for 12g. cable, for instruments that have smaller wire you'll need different terminals. HomeDepot or Lowe's terminals will be fine, provided you can find an exact match, and I'm pretty sure they won't carry the ring flag terminals. Easier to just order from McMaster or equivalent.


charcoaldabs said:


> What about the process of crimping on the wires? Strip 1/4" or so, stick it in the connector, and squeeze crimper? Any other technique to it?


The terminal should come with instructions, but if not, yes. See below.


charcoaldabs said:


> Some of our stage pins have this weird flat piece on the pins, I'm not sure what that's for.


Those are known as "shoe terminals," and are designed so that you just stick the stripped wire under the metal plate and tighten the screw. In my opinion, throw those little metal plates away and buy crimp terminals. If you must (or want to) use them, be sure to use the proper conductive LocTite (thread locker) on the screw before tightening. I think they come with split lock washers, but unassembled, so who knows if the lock washers were used by the original installer. In any case, I don't like them, except maybe for wiring a practical that you know you're going to be taking apart soon. Easier to field repair, but breaks more often. Use the right thing the first time and one need not worry about field repair. 


charcoaldabs said:


> What should I be looking for in a crimper? Are there any smallish crimpers? The Klein all-in-one tool I looked at was a monster.


Much issue of debate here. I prefer my Vaco crimper/stripper that has a tooth so that it significantly dents the ferrule. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to find this crimper anywhere, and don't remember where I got the one I have. Edit--Vaco is a subset of Klein? or so it appears, never knew that. Since you (I) already have the McMaster catalog open, page 735, part# 7179K41 for $38.74 US, or, because you're partial to Klein, whose website seems to be down at the moment, this. As an aside, you DO have an MMC hard copy catalog, free for the asking, to use as a reference tool, don't you? In my opinion, don't use the crimpers that are flat and just smash both sides of the ferrule together. I don't see any acceptable stripper/crimper combo tool listed on Lowe's site. For a combo unit I do approve of, go here, and type in "Greenlee 1923." You have made friends with Graybar in your city, yes? Best price here.

For more information on connectors and wire types, see this thread. Now give me back the 75 minutes I just spent composing this post.

Here's most everything you need. Probably forgotten something, though. Like the Klein 1005, which I use sometimes rather than the Vaco No. 1900.


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## Charc

Some great data here, Derek.

Non-insulated is in-fact the preferred connection type? I suppose that makes sense.

The ring flag note is especially helpful. I have seen this configuration employed in some of our connectors, and it looks like I'd need to stock both. My thought is the center crimp-on-connector is the same as a "standard" connector, right? So I can stock more of the center type, and less of the flag type.

So it looks like #8 stud is the way to go. Your links are broken, but I managed to track-down the pages you mentioned.

<45 minutes? You're making this a full-time occupation. However, I don't believe that thread hit all of these specific issues.>


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## JD

One small warning: Not all crimps and crimpers are created equal. Back in the "Leads and Northrup" days (now known as Northrup Grumman), the only acceptable crimpers were "detent and release" style units. (like these - http://www.arizonatools.com/tools/contractor-crimpers-and-wire-strippers_cutters/detail/GRNK30GL/ (overkill)) These would not release until the proper force was applied. The type sold at hardware stores requires some subjective judgment. Before you start doing your connectors, do a few practice crimps on the type of wire you will be using. Try to pull the wire back out of the crimp after you are done. This will give you a good feel for the tool.


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## JD

charcoaldabs said:


> Non-insulated is in-fact the preferred connection type?



Correct. The plastic smushes around, taking force away from the actual crimp.


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## soundlight

My favorite crimp tool has always been the Klein Tools Model 1005. [Link to Lowe's.] Works like a charm, every time.


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## derekleffew

charcoaldabs said:


> The ring flag note is especially helpful. I have seen this configuration employed in some of our connectors, and it looks like I'd need to stock both. My thought is the center crimp-on-connector is the same as a "standard" connector, right? So I can stock more of the center type, and less of the flag type.


Yes. Your locking connectors (the ones that you don't know say Harj-Lock), will use the flag terminals, as they were before all GSPs became "ergonomic." Buy at least a bag of 100 ring flags (for 50 connectors). You may need to stock a total of 4 types: flag and straight _times_ 12-10 ga. for 12/3 cable and 22-18 (or is it 16-14? [may depend on the fixture]) for fixtures. Lucky for you they're inexpensive.

The broken links are McMaster-Carr's fault, not mine. I should have "de-linked" them though, and am going to do that now.

JD, the crimper to which you referred does seem like overkill, unless one is doing hundreds at a time. Good point about "becoming one with your crimper."

Soundlight, I like and have one of those crimpers also, but I prefer my Vaco No. 1900, even though I don't like its strippers. I like the big dent it makes into the back of the ferrule.

Gafftaper, should weigh in and pay attention to this, as he will soon have at least 133 connectors to install. It can be fun and very "zen," but one must have the correct tools to do a proper job.

My roommate, when building cables in the 1970's, was taught to dip the terminals in a solder pot after crimping. I've never seen that done, and don't recommend it today.


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## ship

Almost feel as if my word is as if written in some holy book to be quoted. Nope, just that my concepts in crimping I got in the industry and college when I got where I got exactly matched in concept and with agreement style that of where I work that wound up in the same way by also having studied the concept. In other words, a crimp tool that displaces material instead of crushes that material tends to work better in crimping - no matter the crimp type, than those types of crimp tool that smashes a crimp.

Overall theory is in making a crimp sufficiently encapsulate and apply even pressure to all parts of the stranded wire surface by way of a tooth displacing crimp material into the wire well area so the individual strands of wire lacks area to deflect and shift to where there is less pressure. This as opposed to a sort of crushing crimp such as an oval crimp which simply as if pliers or a vise smashing the crimp onto the wire, some parts about the wire having a more as it were intimate connection with the crimp terminal than those areas of the wire strands that are towards the edges which do not have as much pressure applied to them. It’s a general concept of if a circle has the same ID as an oval once the circle is smashed or one more C-Shaped tooth crimped circle now has less ID.

Those McMaster Carr tools listed are not persay the best nor Klien or Stakon insulation displacement type. They will work for the most part but not what I would choose other than as plausible type of tooth tool that will work. The jaw itself is cut away in recess sub-jaw similar to am AMP crimp tool in doing damage to the normal crimp in a way that is hard to explain. Still it is economical and easy to get.

Ah’ the Vatco 1900 tool... Not good as a wire stipper and at times even sufficient as a larger size bolt cutter, but them crimp jaws work well for most not high temperature crimp terminals, and to the best of my knowledge, is the only tool that has all three main wire gauges on the proper side of the hinge in one tool. Metal thickness on the crimp tool is not extreme but sufficient. As I was told in approving this tool “not the best but marginally sufficient.” Still not the greatest of tools but a overall good tool. This tool is perhaps the only tool on the market that will crimp a flag terminal (90 degree ring terminals) without needing special work with a grinder to get rid of the cutting edge that otherwise damages the crimp. This granted that for a 12ga wire on a flag terminal into the 16ga crimp jaw at the edge of such a Vatco tool, it is not proper but does work better than other methods otherwise available. Watch them wire stripping jaws when cutting a screw - them is dangerous in making nasty cuts into the meat of your hand. Best to grind the stripper jaws away but be careful not to grind away the stops or you could over crimp and stress the wire crimped in over tension. This plus the Vatco tool, being a rivet and only 1/8" steel does deflect and bend in making screw cuts not always nice, and or getting a bent or broken tool. Not so bad as some metric screw cutter multi-tools I have used over the years made out of very much lesser grades of steel - sufficient to bend the tool before it cuts a screw,. But still while ability to cut a screw in length is useful, such a tool is not optimum for larger screws.

Than again, I gave Mayhem a set of them a few years ago. He recently sent me an E-Mail about having broken them (in the photo). Ah’ what a shame and that was one of four I bought and that tool goes back years with me, but I can easily see how it could happen - I still use a pair at home and often question when they will break. Don’t use such a tool on high temperature crimp terminals.

These days I more use the Klien 1005 and 1006 crimp tools. Same tooth, more rugged. Granted I have no idea of why such a tool has a set of dikes at the tip and often grind such a cutting tool off so I can now use them for flag terminals. These are the proper “Stakon” tools - just by a different brand. Many brands of tool offer the exact same product which no doubt if not exact same in spec. are made by the same company just with different brand names on them. Two tools however to buy as opposed to the Vatco all in one tool. The #1005 is a “insulated crimp” and 14-16ga crimp jaw tool for “uninsulated crimp termilals.” The #1006 is for 10-12ga and 18-22ga crimp termials also of “uninsulated crimp terminals.” Ignore the “insulated” or “non-insulated” nature of your crimp terminal. The pressure of the crimp tool will displace any vinyl or nylon in the way sufficient to let the jaw of the crimp tool displace the terminal barrel sufficiently that you will get a proper crimp. Only real purpose of the insulated crimp (when you don’t apply adhesive lined heat shrink over it) is to insulate the barrel or even area of the crimp against shorting. The jaw displacing thru the insulation and crimp won’t effect this insulation over the rest of the terminal. If in doubt, wrap the say vinyl insulation in electrical tape or heat shrink tubing and it’s now back to protecting conducting parts of the crimp sufficiently. Still stick with the jaw type displacement of the material instead of just crushing the crimp terminal.

One should note different “seats” or “saddles” available in what is a #1005 verses #1006 in a Klien brand proper “Stakon” tool. The #1005 most closely conforms to a Vatco #14-16 wire gauge size, the #1006 tool than more closely conforms to the Vatco other two sizes. On the #1005 tool, that oval crimp is not useful for crimping wire but is useful in prepping your Nicopress oval sleeves for their proper crimp - this especially for 1/16" crimps. Just use the oval crimp to get a certain tension onto your wire rope crimp so it does not move before you give it the proper wire rope crimp. Also useful in ovaling and or rounding out certain stuff or in gripping stuck screw threads. Lots of leverage to that oval and that is what it is good for in my opinon. 

Grind away them front dike jaws but do so really carefully because both the stop and the saddle are in perrel if you grind away even just a bit too much as commonly done. Grind away too much and it is only good as a flag terminal crimp tool. Grind away too much of the tip of the tool and it now damages crimp terminals crimped under it due to the saddle having too much cut away from it. In other words, be really careful in how much of the front edge you grind away = 50% of all of this type crimp tool will be lost by over ambition in grinding away the front cutting edge if you are not really really careful. Half my crimp tools of that type now are designated only for doing flag terminals now due to this over ambitious grinding.

I do not recommend grinding away that front cutting edge of a “Stakon tool” unless you have need of crimping old style Union 2P&G (meaning two pin and ground pin) / Stage Pin (as now said) / Slip plug terminals. Got like five of these tools in my work box now between shop tools and my own and only two of them I feel have the proper cut to them once grinded or not so at all in having gotten to it yet. Ignore the cutting tip and use the tool as designed in having stops for a proper tension as designed.

That said. While not ideal, I do also allow a ratcheting tooth Paladin tool for crimping terminals at work. It’s jaws are a bit wide but it does do a good job in not releasing until the proper tension, that you have a good crimp. Beyond the concept of a tooth verses oval crimp tool is just getting that crimp tight enough so it don’t pull loose. Over the years there has been a lot of lamp bars with internal crimps becoming a constant problem of some wire pulling free not just because of the wrong crimp tool used, but because some weak wristed hack crimped sufficient to them but not sufficient to make a proper connection. Back to the concept that if you screw to a wall three crimps of 12/3 SOOW cable, you should be able to not just hang from it but bounce on it without the crimps failing by way of either over or under-crimped terminals. A very good test of one’s crimping ability I often state that I learned in college while studying the Union type connector.

Onto the Lowes ring terminals. Every stage pin plug I am aware of uses a #8-32 screw on it thus the #8 ring terminal - insulated or not is the proper size to fit. Insulated ring terminals for the most part on many styles of stage pin plug will work, otherwise you just grab the ring in one pair of pliers and the vinyl insulation in another and just kind of twist and pull and such a thing quickly gets removed. That said, the standard #8 un-insulated or insulated ring terminal is not what you want to be using on a old school Union plug. That distance between the barrel and the ring on a Union plug is much shorter than that of a regular ring terminal. Be mindful of this. You can make it work but it is not easy and McMaster don’t sell Union Connector type ring terminals. They do sell the proper flag terminals however in even 14-16ga.

I shop at Lowes and Menards (Home Depot not close) at times to stock my own garage and such sutff while more expensive than in buying it by the 100 packages will work. At times you also have to add in shipping costs to any mail order type orders. Also used to have this Ace Hardware in my area that not just stocked the Vatco 1900 tool but also stocked the 100 packs of ring terminals. Sad to say that just as everywhere else, they no longer do. Even stocked 7.5 watt outside frost blue lamps for use in my clip lights... lucky if one can find another source, but alas they don’t. On the other hand, as long as not the grumpy old men at your local Ace Hardware, True Value who don’t take you seriously, it is more possible to get what you can really use thru them in stock than thru the chain store. This much less, good luck finding most screw sizes in the grade you want thru the chin store at a reasonable price.

I digress, yep, go to Lowes if you only need a few and it is economical. Such a crimp should work with your style of stage pin plug if not Bates, ProPin possibly Lex or Union. Need to get the proper size stud hole to the crimp ring terminal however. It’s possible that Lowes sells the right #8 size or #6-8 size but sometimes there is holes in what they stock for certain wire gauges especially. If not for #8 stud, nope, it is not correct.

Home Depot brand verses Lowes... they don’t make ring terminals, most likely they carry a brand of ring terminals such as Ideal or Stakon etc. which make a well within standard to the industry crimp terminal that would be sufficient. All are normally the same - often it is just the flair at the edge of the vinyl insulation that will spell the difference between brands. That detail will only come to play when dealing with thicker insulation or duble wires into one terminal.

On stripping the wire... I am sure each pack of crimp terminals have a instruction part on them which tells you how much insulation to strip off. For me I tend to range between 3/16" and 1/4" and this more depends upon what type of wire I am stipping. I tend to strip often a bit less from a rubberized wire than a thermoset wire. The rubber wire will in the crimp terminal allow me to push that insulation back a bit on the conductor thus have a bit of bunched up material behind the crimp, this as opposed to on thermoset wire (plastic) that won’t give as well. For that and ideal in general, you want the wire to range between going to the tip of the crimp to extending beyond it by a maximum of 1/16". Main concept especially with insulation that moves and displaces is to bunch up a bit of it outside the crimp so that if that wire has moved or bent, you have insulation covering the wire.


Flat piece on the pins... as it were... Not totally sure what you mean but probably it means that you have old style Union if not second generation plug where a ring terminal is intended to be installed onto the pin. (This granted that McMaster either just started or has always carried a type of wire washer you wrap around the wire than screw a screw into that wrap in terminating it. - past search of mine for such a thing.)

“All in one tools” are often not what you need, if often just crap. Nuff said - see above. “Smallish crimpers”... yep often people just getting into the industry will attempt to blend into society and by a smallish Linesmen tool also... Neither will function as well as wished for - and you let me catch you with such at tool and you are in for some intensive training in why you wasted your money in something not allowed for you to use thus that you take home at the end of the day and never bring back. Multi-tools... useless - save your money and buy a tool for its purpose not a all in one problem solver. Even in considering such a thing I am sure you can tell a certain difference in quality of what might seem to work verses what would be ideal for any purpose.

Derekleffew.... dissappointed in ya for speaking my name as if some benchmark but not understanding what I might advise. Best to make advice your own in while not always right as mine also is not, it relies upon your own recommendation and though and not a basis of standpoint upon others that should be unapproachable unless incorrect.

Good to help, good to offer thoughts but I disagree with your advice. First, while there might be an electrically competent Threadlocker compound, I am yet to ever in the years use one. For me, electrical connections have always and possibly will always be mechanical in nature. Metal especially under current and resistance expands and contracts, relying upon a glue to stick two different surfaces together given this, and be sufficient afterwards to withstand vibration and further use is almost an oxymoron. 

For most uses of non-current conditions I normally specify one or three types of Threadlocker if not Vibertight compound, when not at times also supplemented by also a type of mechanical means but for electrical connections I never specify a threadlocker compound for any connection. Mechanical means of staying tight for me means one of a few methods instead. Belleville washer that is a cone shape and upon tension becomes tighter about the screw in resistance, external tooth lock washers where possible or for those screws that don’t have a head sufficient to use them internal tooth lock washers, than spring lock lock washers for normal bolt activity to supplement lock type nuts. Than you get into material grades, Silicone bronze for a better material to conduct than zinc plated steel given a high enough current.

This all dependant upon material and current. For the most part I still rely upon mechanical means of fastening rather than any locking of the threads while under current. This especially on any even plug used. I fully expect that any plug 20A or more once used for a time under current will settle and especially in the 30A up to the 60A stage pin size, it is going to need a re-tightening after used initially. That shake the plug test to test for a loose terminal simply cannot be bypassed for other than stage pin plugs where there would be a rattle given tolerances. Even for well used say 60A stage pin plugs, once a year at very least if not more often every time they are used, it it proper and advised to re-torque them once a year at least. Otherwise, even wire that seemingly has settled under the set screws and even under a ferrule, or screws that have been tensioned under a lock washer can fail due to further settling. No idea of how many from 30A to 60A plugs I have had to replace over the years due to loose terminals but it is the case of expansion and contraction and wires settling in most all cases as the problem that caused a plug to melt down.

On a 20A stage pin plug, if crimp type one might expect if given a tooth type crimp tool it will no longer need to settle and it most likely wont. Add a external tooth silicone bronze lock washer to the plug and it most likely will be fine... don’t have all the above and under full load for a period of time - just as with those of you Euro type plugs... you need to inspect again at least after a year each connection. Lots of examples in the past of failures no matter the plug type, and stuff that was just fine... don’t know before it fails unless one inspects every connection out of preventative maintenance. This even if torquing the heck out of a plug, it still can settle up to and including a CamLoc type plug which I normally don’t have problems with in going five pounds over the specified torque on. 400A.. Yep over torque it you have a problem, go under it and you also do. Five pounds for me means compensation for settling in the wire on this plug type.

Torque also means something.... how many people really read and follow that little pamphlet that comes with every new plug you buy? How many people match the wire strip lengths up to what if often marked inside each plug for proper length? In many ways it I expect is a “I’m a guy thus know how to” type of thing yet one would be surprised how much problems a inproper strip length especially with the insulation inside the crimp terminal problems will cause with a connection. Plug says 5/8" stripped on the conductor.... someone stripped 1/4" and shoved it all into the terminal. You now have most of the conductor under a terminal as the insulation of the conductor preventing current flow as opposed to a good connection - yet most even “Professional Union” types are beyond simply reading the instructions on a plug, or even looking at what they are doing so as to see if they are doing something wrong. This beyond some grounding conductor on a plug hooked up to a hot terminal. 


“Shoe Terminals” are the laymens term for ferrule and are most used on Bates, Pro-Pin or Lex type stage pin plugs. Such a terminal or ferrule can be crimped or not. Hmm, ferrule crimp tool... sweat - I love both my sizes of ferrule crimp tool, they are really useful for project work but debatable for use on a stage pin plug.

Pneumatic crimp tool for ring terminals???? possible.. Got one for Socapex and Hoist Cable plugs but not one yet for ring terminals and hope not to need one.... But such a tool is possible.

Below is Mayhem's Vatco 1900 tool I gave him and he promptly broke while crimping some high temperature crimp terminals... and as of a few years ago some of the tools in my own tool box. Got more since than to play with and that's the electrical tool drawer. Since than I had to move screw drivers out of that drawer etc. Lots of toys to play with, and evey tool/toy has a purpose. This not including pneumatic or ratcheting multi pin type toys.


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## gafftapegreenia

ship said:


> Even stocked 7.5 watt outside frost blue lamps for use in my clip lights... lucky if one can find another source, but alas they don’t.


This, as usual, has been a good thread. Not much to add on my part, I've just been learning along with the rest of the readers. My crimps are just like the red handled set made by Klien except Crescent, but I'm buying Klein everything else now. Charc your lucky to have the funds to build up such a nice kit in high school, I should have started sooner. 
Gotta say I love my local ACE, ACO (Southeastern Michigan chain) and "ma & pa" hardware stores. They have that odd stuff you'd have to order otherwise.
So you can't find blue outside frost medium Edison screw base 7.5 watt S11 lamps? Time to make friends with your local industrial/commercial lighting supplier. Mine here in Detroit carries the S11's for about 90 cents a lamp. Why pay $2.50 from a big hardware store? ACO had a two-pack of 25W A-lamps for $3.20. I needed some for my Christmas display, went to my supplier and got a 4 pack for a $1.20! Of course you could always order a box of the S11's from Action Lighting too.


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## derekleffew

ship said:


> Almost feel as if my word is as if written in some holy book to be quoted.


I've joked with STEVETERRY offline regarding WWSTD?--What Would Steve Terry Do?, and hold you in the same regard. WWSD?--What Would Ship Do?...is complimentary, regardless of your unwillingness to be accepted as an expert.


ship said:


> Derekleffew.... dissappointed in ya for speaking my name as if some benchmark but not understanding what I might advise. Best to make advice your own in while not always right as mine also is not, it relies upon your own recommendation and though and not a basis of standpoint upon others that should be unapproachable unless incorrect.


Point taken. I have removed your name from all of my above posts.


ship said:


> Onto the Lowes ring terminals. Every stage pin plug I am aware of uses a #8-32 screw on it thus the #8 ring terminal - insulated or not is the proper size to fit.


You are correct. I looked at the batch of ring flag terminals I had ordered in error (for #6 stud). And now I remember having to drill them out slightly. I last used them in 2000. I have corrected my first post.


ship said:


> Flat piece on the pins... as it were... Not totally sure what you mean but probably it means that you have old style Union if not second generation plug where a ring terminal is intended to be installed onto the pin....
> 
> ...“Shoe Terminals” are the laymens term for ferrule and are most used on Bates, Pro-Pin or Lex type stage pin plugs. Such a terminal or ferrule can be crimped or not...


I believe you are mistaken. This picture,

from this site, would indicate to me that "Shoe Terminals" are the little pieces of brass to which Charcoaldabs is referring. And I've found they tend to loosen up more than any other, thus my suggestion for lock washers and/or adhesive. I define "ferrule" as the part of the terminal the stripped wire goes in to, is that your definition also? This is as what I have referred to as shoe connectors, and I believe we discussed this with gafftaper when he asked which 2P&G connector he should order for his theatre. Gaff--do you have the link to that thread?


ship said:


> Ah’ the Vatco 1900 tool...


 It's a *VACO* #1900, not Vatco, and if you can direct me to a source for a direct replacement I would appreciate it. I've been looking for years, since I started compiling two sets of tools, one for work and one for home. I suspect that Klein purchased Vaco at some point in the past.


ship said:


> Pneumatic crimp tool for ring terminals???? possible.. Got one for Socapex and Hoist Cable plugs but not one yet for ring terminals and hope not to need one.... But such a tool is possible...


I said hydraulic, not pneumatic, it's more than possible. I have seen such a tool. It used a foot pedal, and was the ratcheting type, with changeable dies. Probably discontinued, as it was old when I saw it abound 1985.


ship said:


> ...Got more since *than* to play with and that's the electrical tool drawer. Since *than* I had to move screw drivers out of that drawer etc...


You have learned the difference between *then* and *than* exactly backwards (makes your writing hard to follow for me): I've been watching your writings. Use *then* when talking about *time*, and *than* when doing a *comparison*.

Thanks for all your contributions. I hope we haven't made Charc regret asking the question. It's obvious both of us are passionate about correct installation of pin connectors!

Here's a fun document to while away the hours.


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## Sean

derekleffew;74897Here's a fun [URL="http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/www.usitt.org/bookstore/downloads/U87%20S3-StgPinStandard20050610.pdf" said:


> document[/URL] to while away the hours.



Link doesn't work.


--Sean


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## Charc

Sean said:


> Link doesn't work.
> --Sean



He was trying to link to:

www.usitt.org/bookstore/downloads/U87%20S3-StgPinStandard20050610.pdf


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## derekleffew

Fixed in last edit. Thank you, Charc and Sean.


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## ship

spelling asside and passions on proper ways of doing things under debate and discussion in both and all learning from each other.


This from McMaster Carr I believe most describes what you describe, yet I have heard of the ferrule described as a "shoe terminal" and it would normally fit within the type of plug in the photo given a plate under the screw terminal that applies pressure to the wire. The other type and I think we both are thinking the same concept of really old style wire washer not even below but similar in concept I don't think the same. I use odd brands such as presented only for adaptors - it's a Bates shop for most purposes. Given this and that I don't wire as much cable these days some forgetting is manditory on my part as opposed to having to figure out stuff like PXA-48 lamps.

About other stuff spelling etc. Yep... word processors etc. and differences in ways of doing things that should be respected in both our ways of doing so. End user is best given what is presented and knowledge of choices than deciding himself thus the overall intended service of this forum.

Ferrules I define as ferrules not that part of the wire set into the crimp part of a termilal. For instance on a Leko, I will use a un-insulated 12ga 9681K65 with a insulated 16ga 7950K94 sleeved inside it for use on a Bates style plug. This if not also doing a 14ga crimp between ferrules if fine standed. McMaster Carr part numbers. By the way, the ferrule crimp tool is also really cool.

Pneumatic/hydrolyc etc... for me the same concept only pneumatic fast enough to be efficient other than if under large load. Vaco.. Vatco, posting from memory that spelling, good to keep me checking myself thanks. On buying another, if still made it would be available thru anyone that supplies Klien tools as a special order. Sorry, other than "Lens Ace Hardware" in Addison Illinois in the past, I don't know of anyone that even used to stock that tool. I do know if still availalible most electrical supply shops would be willing to special order it without a problem. On that tool I always wanted to laminate two of these tools together so as to get more strength and surface area on the crimp. Never got that far but it was a concept.

Out of McMaster Carr - the following I think is the third option discussed but don't think it best for such plugs:

Terminal Cup Washers 

Made entirely of brass, these terminal cup grounding washers help make firm electrical connections. They prevent wire from slipping out from under the screw head. ID and OD tolerance is ±0.010". 
Screw Pkg. 
Size ID OD Qty. Per Pkg. 

6 0.153" 0.504" 10 93720A011 $8.74 

8 0.168" 0.453" 10 93720A015 8.91 

8 0.178" 0.518" 10 93720A020 9.46 

10 0.200" 0.507" 10 93720A025 8.82 

10 0.200" 0.453" 10 93720A030 8.82 


Washers


----------



## derekleffew

Well, ship and I will have to agree to disagree on this one. He likes Bates connectors, and I prefer Union Connector brand. Union Connector made the original for Bates Electric in the 1930's, and recently (10 years ago?) Marinco/Advanced Devices resurrected the name. Both have their advantages and disadvantages. 

By the way ship, Union Connector 20a-2P&G plugs/connectors come in "pressure plate" and "crimp lug" here. Hardly an "odd brand."


----------



## Sean

derekleffew said:


> Well, ship and I will have to agree to disagree on this one. He likes Bates connectors, and I prefer Union Connector brand. Union Connector made the original for Bates Electric in the 1930's, and recently (10 years ago?) Marinco/Advanced Devices resurrected the name. Both have their advantages and disadvantages.
> By the way ship, Union Connector 20a-2P&G plugs/connectors come in "pressure plate" and "crimp lug" here. Hardly an "odd brand."


I know I'm hijacking just a bit, but I'm a fan of the "direct wire" connectors. Advanced Devices/Bates/etc plugs with the wire shoes.
I am not a fan of the body shape of the Union Connector plugs. I find the "hour-glass" shape more difficult to grab while wearing gloves. When I specified equipment for our new space I requested "Bates". 
Everyone has different opinions--including some on my staff. One likes the pressure-plate style. One likes ring-crimps.
But, I'm the boss.


----------



## derekleffew

Hey, I found the thread I was looking for. (You have to keep separate the two discussions of DMX cable and Gafftaper's GSP connectors.)

*For clarification purposes:*
There are currently *two* basic shapes of 20A-2P&G connectors:
"Hour Glass": (uses 2 cover screws) Union Connector brand, EPS
"Trapezoidal": (uses 3 cover screws) Bates (Marinco/Advanced Devices), Rosco, TMB ProPin

There are *three* methods of attaching wires to pins:
"Crimp Lugs": UC, Bates (ring terminal), EPS (Crimp Termination), Rosco DT (Dual Termination) 
"Pressure Plate": UC, EPS (Shoe Termination) 
"Ferrule": TMB ProPin, Bates (Barrel Terminal), Rosco DT (Dual Termination)

Rosco and EPS give you a choice of two different termination methods with the same connector. UC and Bates must be specified at time of order. All are available with Black, Clear, and assorted color covers. Personally, I like the clear covers for easy visual inspection. 

Isn't it great to have so many choices?


----------



## gafftapegreenia

Here's most everything you need. Probably forgotten something, though. Like the Klein 1005, which I use sometimes rather than the Vaco No. 1900.

[/SIZE][/QUOTE]


Ya know Derek, I just realized, what exactly is that blue thing, how does it work, and is it worth it?


----------



## derekleffew

gafftapegreenia said:


> ...what exactly is that blue thing, how does it work, and is it worth it?


That blue thing is a "cable (not wire, cable) stripper," Ideal Cat#45-128. 

IDEAL INDUSTRIES, INC. - Swivel-Blade Cable Stripper for 3/4 inch and smaller outside diameter cable

Its sole function is to strip the rubber jacket from cable. Personally, I like it, but it does require much attention in use, and has a tendency to want to cut too deeply, thus nicking the insulation of the inner conductors. I'm not sure I could justify spending the ~$26 on such a uni-tasking, specialized tool, however. I'm guessing I purchased it twenty-some years ago for around $10. With practice, a Stanley 99 Retractable-blade Utility knife for $4 is almost as good.

See http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/lighting/6166-stripping-cable.html for additional discussion.


----------



## gafftapegreenia

Oh man, that thread certainly raised a ruckus as I remember. 

I have concluded there is no perfect way besides practice to strip the jacket. 

My current preferred method is with a short blade like this:


But, of course, since I have a multi-tool fetish, mine is on my Swiss Army knife.


----------



## ship

Well put, a few details. Never put any threadlocker or other than some unknown sort of conductive thread locker onto a screw thread that conducts. Not persay a really bad thing given terminal to plate touching but really really bad practive. Just don't do it in general as a never do.

Not such a fan of the McMaster Carr crimp tool offered. Sure it works and is fine for the most part but I don't like the concave tip which might cut more than "displace the material." Concept - this no matter if insulated is that you displace rather than crush your crimp. In other words, as opposed to smashing it down where some strands of wire may not recieve as much tension on the termial as others in a smashing sense - this could be bad with conductor settling and expansion/contraction, the insulation displacement type tooth crimp tool pushes material into the area of the crimp terminal. Less room about the terminal under tension means every strand of wire recieves the same amount of tension on it. Can still use an insulation displacement tool on insulated terminals, you just get a bit smashed or displaced the insulation.

Overall key and concept in doing a crimp terminal of any type is that you can tug on the wire now crimped and it don't pull free. Heck, when I was in school, the concept was you drywall screwed the cable to a board on the wall and had at best be able to climb that cable without screws or terminals failing. None the less, that's the tension. There is also ratcheting crimp tools that don't reliece the terminal until properly crimped. Good thing especially for the harder to crimp high temperature terminals, though I'm not as much a fan of them given the less tooth more widened displacement tooth.

As a rule also, find the seam of the crimp terminal. "Seam to saddle". Put that seam of the crimp terminal into the rounded concave part of the crimp tool so it's tooth crimps into the solid part of the crimp. Wouldn't believe how many even industry pro terminals are crimped wrong in strands of wire falling out of the terminal and even terminal working it's way free of the wire it's crimping to by way of backwards crimp. Simple rule, Seam in saddle.

On Flag terminal, Got no use for the front cutting jaws of a crimp tool such as the Stakon, Klien #1005 or #1006, I normally grind it off and that becomes your flag terminal crimp tool once away. This granted in doing so you loose your stops for cimping and instead have to rely on tension and experience in what is proper tension. Don't think there ever was a crimp tool invented for flag terminals. Love my Vatco #1900 tool, still use it as opposed to the above Klien tools at times, but it's a bit under strength at times for high temp. terminals. Got mine at Ace Hardware though in general the Vatco line isn't sold these days. A shame as I also prefer my 5/16" hex Key T-Handle for case or platform rotolocks.

Still the Vatco tool is all set for all intensive purposes for doing flag terminals. This granted it's going to be using the smallest of it's three sizes for crimping but again it's a tension thing more than a jaw size for a flag terminal. I recommend on it however to grind away the wire stipping cutters under the pivet point however. First, they don't give a proper strip of the cable typical to all multi-crimp/strippers and second they are dangerous. More than once I have used the tool to cut a screw in it's screw cutting jaws and choked up a bit only to catch part of the palm of my hand within these sharpened jaws. Not a good wire stripper, gone for safety just as with the Stakon or Klien proper crimp tools above in cutting away the useless cutting tip.

On the above Klien or Stakon tools, you have for at least Klien the #1005 single jaw verses #1006 double jaw crimp tools on the market. In matching up crimps to the saddle of it, it would seem the first single jaw - with insulated crimp oval, as it's second crimp part, works best on 14-16ga terminals. The double jaw works best on 18-22ga and 10-12ga terminals but not as well on the other. Were I to buy only one tool, I would buy the single jaw crimp tool in balancing that. Overall it I think has the best balance, though I do own many of both at shop and home and don't have to choose. Reason for this choice, In doing a flag terminal in having cut away the front cutting tip, the double jaw #1006 won't properly crimp a 12ga flag terminal given it's front crimp jaw is for 18-22ga. If you don't have flag terminals in your system, perhaps the #1006 would be better and you don't have to grind away the cutting edge. 

On the Klien #1005, it's insulated crimp jaw is still useful if say doing 1/16" wire rope and setting up your crimp for a proper wire rope crimp tool. Or rounding out small round stuff, other than that, wouldn't use it.

On the other hand, what I often find myself using is an Ideal Linsesmens pliers crimp tool for 12-10ga and larger cap splices and in general for 12ga or larger crimps. I like it and it's the only style on the market. Wouldn't use it for normal uses of a Linsesmen's pliers in it's cutting part is lacking leverage in being on the wrong side of the hinge but it's a great crimp tool overall for a normal crimp tool. Saddle on it is just a bit larger and with leverage, it's jaw still displaces properly yet adds more surface area to what is displaced.

Side note, pull off the insulation from a vinyl store bought ring terminal and you now have a un-insulated ring terminal. On the other hand for a Union style stage pin plug in using the flag terminals, store bought and even McMaster or other sources in that center ground ring terminal for some reason is longer in length than a proper ring terminal for th plug. Short of Union Connector, you tend to run into problems of outer jacket strip length in even if you put the ground right next to the outer jacket, it's still too long. Caution on that.

This in Union Connector and or McMaster and other sources for a 100pkg of proper terminals often being cheaper in the long run than a ten pack or what ever for a home center package of them. Definately want to at least pull off the insulation off a ring terminal ground if doing a proper Union stage pin plug.

By the way... Stage pin is the proper term, I was incorrect in it being "stage pin" as opposed to "stage plug." in being different. On the other hand I do have a collection of all sizes from 10A thru 100A Stage pin and stage Plug in collection - fascinating if not cute in the case of the 10A version.


derekleffew said:


> Call it anything except a "stage plug." See this thread... (well I can't find it, but it was the one where JD argued with me about calling a 2P&G a "stage plug." We really need a better search engine, perhaps in v3.0?)
> 
> Need 3x "Uninsulated Crimp-On Ring Terminals" for the modern 2P&G. Unless you have the older pin connectors that need two right angle ring terminals for the hot and neutral and a straight terminal for the ground. A brand name that has become like Leko and Kleenex is "Sta-Kon,"
> 
> Just to make it more difficult for you McMaster-Carr online catalog, page 719, Part#7113K823, The screw is actually an 8-32, so a 6-8 will work, but I wouldn't go larger than that. If you have older connectors, as I said above, you'll need the "Ring Flag Terminals," page, 721, Part#3125K68. Note these are only for 12g. cable, for instruments that have smaller wire you'll need different terminals. HomeDepot or Lowe's terminals will be fine, provided you can find an exact match, and I'm pretty sure they won't carry the ring flag terminals. Easier to just order from McMaster or equivalent.
> 
> The terminal should come with instructions, but if not, yes. See below.
> 
> Those are known as "shoe terminals," and are designed so that you just stick the stripped wire under the metal plate and tighten the screw. In my opinion, throw those little metal plates away and buy crimp terminals. If you must (or want to) use them, be sure to use the proper conductive LocTite (thread locker) on the screw before tightening. I think they come with split lock washers, but unassembled, so who knows if the lock washers were used by the original installer. In any case, I don't like them, except maybe for wiring a practical that you know you're going to be taking apart soon. Easier to field repair, but breaks more often. Use the right thing the first time and one need not worry about field repair.
> 
> Much issue of debate here. I prefer my Vaco crimper/stripper that has a tooth so that it significantly dents the ferrule. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to find this crimper anywhere, and don't remember where I got the one I have. Edit--Vaco is a subset of Klein? or so it appears, never knew that. Since you (I) already have the McMaster catalog open, page 735, part# 7179K41 for $38.74 US, or, because you're partial to Klein, whose website seems to be down at the moment, this. As an aside, you DO have an MMC hard copy catalog, free for the asking, to use as a reference tool, don't you? In my opinion, don't use the crimpers that are flat and just smash both sides of the ferrule together. I don't see any acceptable stripper/crimper combo tool listed on Lowe's site. For a combo unit I do approve of, go here, and type in "Greenlee 1923." You have made friends with Graybar in your city, yes? Best price here.
> 
> For more information on connectors and wire types, see this thread. Now give me back the 75 minutes I just spent composing this post.
> 
> Here's most everything you need. Probably forgotten something, though. Like the Klein 1005, which I use sometimes rather than the Vaco No. 1900.


----------



## ship

derekleffew said:


> Yes. Your locking connectors (the ones that you don't know say Harj-Lock), will use the flag terminals, as they were before all GSPs became "ergonomic." Buy at least a bag of 100 ring flags (for 50 connectors). You may need to stock a total of 4 types: flag and straight _times_ 12-10 ga. for 12/3 cable and 22-18 (or is it 16-14? [may depend on the fixture]) for fixtures. Lucky for you they're inexpensive.
> 
> 
> 
> Unless 575w or less fixture, cheap PAR can or otherwise, I would doubt it's using 18ga wire. IN any case, fold the 18ga wire in half and pliers the fold and it becomes about 15ga. Only need to now stock two sizes of flag terminal or if necessary fold again and or fold the 16ga wire and it becomes into the 10-12ga range. I would stock two sizes, 14-16ga, and 10-12ga, but if only one, the largest in opening up a terminal with a scratch awl works only to some extent.
Click to expand...


----------



## gafftapegreenia

Hey ship, a couple things:

1) I think its VACO, not VATCO. 

2) My go-to crimper is a Channellock 909

Note that is trades the places of the insulated/non-insulated crimpers as compared to the Klein #1005


I have felt no need to grind of the cutting tip of the #909 as it has proven to crimp flag terminals just fine. 

3) In talking about the Ideal Linesman's pliers, I believe that would be the same as my Klein D213-9NECR


----------



## ship

Sorry to re-bring up a response I already replied to earlier. Properly corrected on some things, and on other concepts... we all have our standards and as long as safe - proper. Learn the standards and reasons for them being in use than go your way with what works for you but only after study and trying them all. Otherwise short of that and trying, be very worried and don't short of supervision in someone else's standard based on experience.

On the cable stripper, I don't trust them other than for ethernet or BNC cable. I prefer the diagional side cutter technique of pinch, pull than cut once pulled away from the conductors which works on no matter what type of cable one is using even if Euro or thermoplastic safely. Even the ethernet tool gets out of adjustment at times in not using the BNC tool much.

No magical tools replace skill and technique in these days my guys having more practice at it than I in more often than not flying a desk instead of fixing stuff, and when we race, them at times being close or beating me at times, but never really topping ten years of skill in practice specific to what I do. Still hours on end doing stuff repeditively and in seeing what fails over the years does have it's ability to think towards what might improve on the problem thus what works with experience. Lately I did take home a pneumatic crimp tool while over a weekend in my garage making 24x SOCO plugs, it did speed up my production time a lot.

TBA not the hydrolic but cordless crimp tool as long as I can find one that does a proper insulation displacement crimp.



derekleffew said:


> That blue thing is a "cable (not wire, cable) stripper," Ideal Cat#45-128.
> 
> IDEAL INDUSTRIES, INC. - Swivel-Blade Cable Stripper for 3/4 inch and smaller outside diameter cable
> 
> Its sole function is to strip the rubber jacket from cable. Personally, I like it, but it does require much attention in use, and has a tendency to want to cut too deeply, thus nicking the insulation of the inner conductors. I'm not sure I could justify spending the ~$26 on such a uni-tasking, specialized tool, however. I'm guessing I purchased it twenty-some years ago for around $10. With practice, a Stanley 99 Retractable-blade Utility knife for $4 is almost as good.
> 
> See http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/lighting/6166-stripping-cable.html for additional discussion.


----------



## gafftapegreenia

Fair enough ship, you know I always respect your opinion as well as anyone with the credible "voice of experience". However this is an internet forum so we should all feel free to share what has worked for us, and perhaps more importantly, what hasn't.

Out of all the $$$$$$ stripping tools out there, the one that I have used the most since I got it 4 years ago has been none other than the $8 IDEAL T-stripper. At that price, I got two. 


As I said, my favorite tool for stripping cable is PRACTICE.

And nothing wrong with necroposting, the information is always valid.


----------



## Mayhem

ship said:


> Don’t use such a tool on high temperature crimp terminals.



Now he tells me!


----------



## ship

1) Ibid on misspelling error.
2) seems simliar to what's talked about in mechanical advantage and tooth crimp, but in the end its jaw depends on what size it most fits in one jaw not being best for all. Still most Stakon type tools are similar.

3) note where the crimp jaw is in mechanical advantage. My own Klien NE style crimp tools are only used on a jobsite given the same crimp position and at times when reinforced in tension by way of hammer.

That crimp jaw on the NE style plers is less ueeful in pre-planning than something that's really useful for gripping a bolt - especially a stuck nut. Great tool also in avoiding that crimp part in a TBA blister if choking up on the grip, but not as much a crimp tool than a bolt or thingie of various size gripper in use this crimp jaw below the pivot.

This granted I'm more a fan of the Klien than Ideal version but for the most part the same. The Ideal I speak of has it's crimp jaws replacing the cutting jaws in location after piviot.


gafftapegreenia said:


> Hey ship, a couple things:
> 
> 1) I think its VACO, not VATCO.
> 
> 2) My go-to crimper is a Channellock 909
> 
> Note that is trades the places of the insulated/non-insulated crimpers as compared to the Klein #1005
> 
> 
> I have felt no need to grind of the cutting tip of the #909 as it has proven to crimp flag terminals just fine.
> 
> 3) In talking about the Ideal Linesman's pliers, I believe that would be the same as my Klein D213-9NECR


----------



## ship

Mayhem said:


> Now he tells me!



You in breaking that tool I gave you brought this up to me in never broken one before.


So as re-posted, don't give Mayhem a tool of any sort. 


After that if used "properly" the Vatco tool will work fine for the high temp. terminals on a Vatco tool. This other if in oher than Mayhem's hands.

Had this guy with sweaty palms that would instantanly rust any tool given. What's worse, Mayhem in tool use or guy that rusts your tools?


----------



## gafftapegreenia

One day I will find one of these Vaco tools. I need to start haunting old hardware stores. Or maybe you can convince Klein to make them again, eh Ship. 

Interesting idea with those Ideal pliers you have. Might you post a pic (since I love me some tool pics) for illustrative purposes?


----------



## ship

Love spring loaded strippers but do prefer my insul grip also similar spring loaded strippers to the photo in type but with more comfort grip in haldle. This specific product in changed no longer sold - they changed the design some. Use the '98 insulated strippers at work and a Klien Kurve at home in liking the ergodynamics over any kiddy short style handles otherwise normally sold these days over the photo and or longer handles.

Credible to choice and thanks, voice of experience to some extent but all of us having our own opinion and equally in balance over and above as it were play testing in opinion but instead debate.

"However this is an internet forum so we should all feel free to share what has worked for us, and perhaps more importantly, what hasn't." 


AGREED AND POINT OF THE FORUM - WHAT DO YOU USE? Well put this opening of debate in what we use, not feaing others, open to correction in a raional type of way and or improvement to all in great thing. For years I used my Vatco crimpers for instance for also stripping wire. Didn't know any better. Thus also discussion like 15 years ago I might have learned from in doing so.




gafftapegreenia said:


> Fair enough ship, you know I always respect your opinion as well as anyone with the credible "voice of experience". However this is an internet forum so we should all feel free to share what has worked for us, and perhaps more importantly, what hasn't.
> 
> Out of all the $$$$$$ stripping tools out there, the one that I have used the most since I got it 4 years ago has been none other than the $8 IDEAL T-stripper. At that price, I got two.
> 
> 
> As I said, my favorite tool for stripping cable is PRACTICE.
> 
> And nothing wrong with necroposting, the information is always valid.


----------



## ship

gafftapegreenia said:


> One day I will find one of these Vaco tools. I need to start haunting old hardware stores. Or maybe you can convince Klein to make them again, eh Ship.
> 
> Interesting idea with those Ideal pliers you have. Might you post a pic (since I love me some tool pics) for illustrative purposes?



Three computers, one in my lair in the garage at home in new don't have them photos yet but works best in free time.

On Vatco, screw the search, do the special order. Who ever is supplying your electrical supplies, contact them and they will get it for you unless Mayhem that's banned from the Vatco product line.  

Still though the Vatco tool while it I love in having all three sizes in crimp tool is still like 1/8" plate steel punched for multi-tool. This plus I do spefically remember some wicked cuts to the palm or meat of my hand in cutting screws. They also with time need a pounding of the pivot in keeping them tight and functioning. Better the two types of Klien Stakon type double and single jaw tools.


----------



## gafftapegreenia

Indeed they did change the grips on the T-Stripper. Still nearly the same in function. 

And I whole heartedly agree, I have yet to use an electricians combo tool with the strippers before the pivot that I have been fond of for wire stripping. 

Experience, opinion, knowledge and active discussion, the reasons why I have always loved CB.


----------



## avkid

Mayhem said:


> Now he tells me!


 Holy cow, look who's back.


----------



## Mayhem

ship said:


> ...don't give Mayhem a tool of any sort.



Of course, Ship has never broken a tool, I'm sure 8) Perhaps he just doesn't have the grip strength 


ship said:


> What's worse, Mayhem in tool use or guy that rusts your tools?



My vote is with sweaty hands guy! Mayhem looks after his tools and gives them a wipe down with a 50% turps 50% air tool oil mix to keep them rust free. Crimpers were not abused either, or used in a manner other than expected. Even the best tools break from time to time.

So you want the Klein tools back? You have my address, drop in any time. I'll even polish them for you  

Come to think of it, I don't recall you giving me any information on what they are or are not suitable for! Especially given that you knew I would be using high-temp butt splices to overhaul all my cans.

Tell you what, I'll buy you a beer or two next time I am in the windy city!


ship said:


> ...contact them and they will get it for you unless Mayhem that's banned from the Vatco product line.



Wonder if Vatco would send me a full line of their products for quality assurance and general R&D, and product line development? Ship - want to make the call??


avkid said:


> Holy cow, look who's back.



Thanks for remembering me. Don't get to excited though, as I am only passing through. Actually was doing a web search on something mechanical, as opposed to theatre specific and a link to CB popped up. Thought I would drop in and spend a few minutes seeing what is going on. Nice to see the growth of CB and then found Ship's dig at me and couldn't let that go unanswered


----------



## ship

Good that a dig is answered. Welcome home, hope all is well. Product playtesting, we all should be so lucky especially with tools or lights. 


About these days we should call Mayhem Dr.Mayhem I hope. Look forward to the next visit, got another guy in my department - up to four now, all interesting in their own ways but it allows me a bit more freedom for a proper visit next time. Got more lights also and more furnature built for the house. Garage workshop a constant evolution in amount of stuff fit in.

Really, do you really maintain your tools that much? Wow? That's impressive in me not so much if at all.


----------



## Mayhem

Not Dr. Mayhem just yet but getting there. Sometimes research takes a different turn or you hit a dead end and have to back out a bit. Or you have a family crisis that impacts on your workload. But that is life and research in general.

I will be in the US in October but unfortunately not up to the windy city this time. Had to go a cheaper route this year which has me flying direct into Houston for the conference. Direct is actually via Moscow for a refuel and the total journey time is 25 hours! Hopefully next year will be better and we can go tool shopping, sight seeing and beer drinking whilst your four guys do the work! You might have a fifth next year - so even more flexibility!!

And yes - every six months all tools get a going over, as do machine beds on my lathe and drill press. If in the mood my vices also get done. With hand tools, if I notice a bit of rust I will hit it then and there. Remember, rust never sleeps my friend.


----------



## ship

Five guys at this point if one includes me or the misc. sick, lame or lazy often assigned, yet we never seem to get caught up or onto past projects put off. Next time in town can employ for a day, or the heck I'll hopefull be able to take off as long as some wall of something don't come up. This season, so far quiet or reletive there of so the shoe no doubt is about to drop. Don't believe we did the 'Tute, or visited Potbellies yet. Much less Jean and Judes.

Still though I'm all about cabinitry and furniture at this point in free time rather than work as it were. Onto powertools or crimpers... just bought a solder sucker.. joke as it were but in sucking solder today manually but with tool, I saw a need for a new toy. Kenisis E-Stop jumpers between racks. Made one and forgot to verify 12" was enough..., nope double that length in me re-sucking solder while my boys were working on Big Light cable repairs in also having to waste time in cleaning up terminals.


----------



## derekleffew

The best alternative I've found to the Vaco 1900 is the Matco MST703E.

Pliers & Sets, Crimping/Wire Stripping | Matco Tools Online Tool Catalog


----------



## gafftapegreenia

Derek, have you actually used one of those?

I haven't bought one yet, I've been frugal lately. LAst thing I bought was a Rocco wrench.


----------



## derekleffew

The green wire was crimped with a Vaco 1900.
The white wire was crimped with a Klein 1005.
The black wire was crimped with a Matco MST703E.

Because of its short handles, the Matco was the most difficult to use. Notice that its "dent" is not as deep as on the green wire, even though the tool was fully closed.

Not having a tooth, the Klein deforms the entire ferrule.

Although all are serviceable, the winner and still champion, is the (unavailable) Vaco No. 1900.


----------



## gafftapegreenia

Thanks for the pic Derek. I really have little desire to purchase the Matco at this point and would rather turn my funds to other things.


----------



## ship

derekleffew said:


> The green wire was crimped with a Vaco 1900.
> The white wire was crimped with a Klein 1005.
> The black wire was crimped with a Matco MST703E.
> 
> Because of its short handles, the Matco was the most difficult to use. Notice that its "dent" is not as deep as on the green wire, even though the tool was fully closed.
> 
> Not having a tooth, the Klein deforms the entire ferrule.
> 
> Although all are serviceable, the winner and still champion, is the (unavailable) Vaco No. 1900.



Crimped for normal purposes if it has a seam there, on the wrong side of the crimp terminal. Though good pointing out assuming the Klien was properly sized for the gauge of crimp terminal.


Also had in seeing the Mtaco's tooth a concern for crushing verses displacing material. Thanks for your study.


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## gafftapegreenia

On the Matco tool, would grinding away on the stops on the inside of the handle help the tooth to have a deeper 'bite'?


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## ship

could be wrong in my above post. Don't see a seam in the crimp where the tooth went into, was commenting on it by way of shadows in what seemed to be the tooth into the top of the terminal. Second look, I could be wrong, these terminals could be up side down and correct - main idea is "seam into saddle" Or put the seam of the ring terminal into the U-shape of the crimp tool and never the tooth of the crimp tool into the seam.

What's in the photo appeared to be tooth in seam but I might be incorrect - sorry if I am.


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## gafftapegreenia

Well the quest has ended. I found a pair of like-new Vaco 1900's on ebay. Final price, with shipping, $10.


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## ship

Good tool, some debate about the cubic as it were square inch of material displaced as opposed to just crushed. In the end in presenting such a tool for at least 12ga cable, that thickness of the cimp tool is about the same, all was acceptable where I work with the other since the 70's ME type guy as acceptable this 1900 tool. 

Just don't put in in Mayhem's hands or he will break it. 

Overall, don't crimp high temperature crimp termials with this tool, a bit too small of steel plate making up the tool to do it well in not breaking, and also don't attempt to cut 10-32 screws with it for the same reason. Beyond that, them useless wire stipping jaws provide for some really nasty cuts to the palm of your hand if crimping or especially cutting screws, so if useful as a screw cutter, grind away them wire stripper cutters that make nasty chomps at the palm of your hand. At that point once safe they can cut if at times you pound the rivet pivot home if loose, you can and very well cut the 10-32 screw.

Good tool for it. Bad tool for wire stripping, good crimp tool for normal crimp termals or cutting screws. Love that handle also. Given the Vatco 1900 crimp jaw, I don't feel the need for a Klien 1005 and 1006 tool on-site to do crimp termials of various wire sizes and I tink this tool does a better job. Good tool to have if not doing high temperature. If doing so, the Klien tools proper (Vatco owned by brand by Klien) are needed by way of strength of tool


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## mrb

Has anyone tried this from Knipex? I havent but everything else from them I have laid hands on has been top notch. I plan on ordering one soon to try out. If the link doesnt work its model 97 32 225 Crimping Pliers

KNIPEX - The Pliers Company. - Products - (http://www.pliers-online.com)


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## epimetheus

I prefer a ratcheting crimper with the proper die set for the terminal being used.

Similar to my tool:

Proper die for insulated terminals:
This die actually has little nubs on the jaw surface that mark the terminal when crimped. This allows for inspection to verify the terminal was crimped with the correct tool. This is mandantory in the industrial plants I've worked in.

Proper die for seamed, uninsulated terminals:


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## gafftapegreenia

mrb said:


> Has anyone tried this from Knipex? I havent but everything else from them I have laid hands on has been top notch. I plan on ordering one soon to try out. If the link doesnt work its model 97 32 225 Crimping Pliers
> 
> KNIPEX - The Pliers Company. - Products - (http://www.pliers-online.com)




Knipex is a quality company that makes top notch and unique products that are also about 3x more expensive than Klein. 

The Thomas&Betts WT2000 is nearly identical and lists around $60 and can be found for as low as $40.(Even Grainger is selling it for $3 and they're always marked up)


It looks like most places are selling the 97-32-225 at about $55 before shipping.

If you notice there are minor differences. The Knipex version has two insulated terminal crushing slots, as well as a slim plier nose. The T&B version has a snipper in the nose.

Also note my price estimates are based off my skills with the Google.

However the Knipex crimper I've had my eye on is the 97-21-215-C. Of course it's $40 and I just got my Vaco 1900's, but it might be a suitable replacement. Someone buy a pair and let me know.



Now, as I'm sure Derek will say if I don't, we have to remember that Knipex makes all their things in Metric sizes to European preferances, which might not be suited for us 'Mericans.


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## STEVETERRY

gafftapegreenia said:


> Fair enough ship, you know I always respect your opinion as well as anyone with the credible "voice of experience". However this is an internet forum so we should all feel free to share what has worked for us, and perhaps more importantly, what hasn't.
> 
> Out of all the $$$$$$ stripping tools out there, the one that I have used the most since I got it 4 years ago has been none other than the $8 IDEAL T-stripper. At that price, I got two.
> 
> 
> As I said, my favorite tool for stripping cable is PRACTICE.
> 
> And nothing wrong with necroposting, the information is always valid.




I'm surprised that nobody mentioned the Miller 101-S stripper, which has been around in the same design since the 1940's. It is my favorite, since you can slide the stop out of the way and simply feel your way through the insulation to the right depth. For production stripping of the same gauge repetitively, you can set the stop.

You can find it here:

Miller Stripper and Cutter Model 101-S

ST

ST


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## gordonmcleod

I use a Klien crimper in my field tool box but in the shop I use a Ideal ratcheting crimper wit interchangable dies for everything from D subs up to 10 awg
For strippers for small signal wires I use the ideal maxim as it will not nick into the small conductors For large wires I use a stripper called the crocs from a small outfit called rack-a-teirs Speciality Electrical Tools: tools for the pouch
there wire reel racks are also excellent
I use knipex waterpump pliers, diagonal cutters, linesmans pliers, and needle nose pliers
For screwdrivers I use Wera
and I have used one of those blue ideal cabtire jacket strippers for almost 30 years and find it wery usefull
te big problem is toolboxes getting larger and larger and heavier and heavier
almost to the point I need a school bus for it


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## epimetheus

gordonmcleod said:


> I use a Klien crimper in my field tool box but in the shop I use a Ideal ratcheting crimper wit interchangable dies for everything from D subs up to 10 awg
> For strippers for small signal wires I use the ideal maxim as it will not nick into the small conductors For large wires I use a stripper called the crocs from a small outfit called rack-a-teirs Speciality Electrical Tools: tools for the pouch
> there wire reel racks are also excellent
> I use knipex waterpump pliers, diagonal cutters, linesmans pliers, and needle nose pliers
> For screwdrivers I use Wera
> and I have used one of those blue ideal cabtire jacket strippers for almost 30 years and find it wery usefull
> te big problem is toolboxes getting larger and larger and heavier and heavier
> almost to the point I need a school bus for it



Why-oh-why did you have to post that link. There's goes this month's discretionary spending...


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## derekleffew

Indeed. I believe we call sites like that "Tool Pr0n" (so as not to trip any school content filters). Nut Blasters? Strutster? Super Splicer? All these things I never knew I needed!


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## shiben

I know. I felt like I was missing out on so much functionality! Too bad there isnt a budget line for that (out new plasma cutter took care of the discretionary... :-(


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## gordonmcleod

I call those sites the toystore's for grownups


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## gafftapegreenia

I simply MUST have a Strutster.


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## STEVETERRY

derekleffew said:


> Indeed. I believe we call sites like that "Tool Pr0n" (so as not to trip any school content filters). Nut Blasters? Strutster? Super Splicer? All these things I never knew I needed!



For quick emptying of the discretionary spending coffers, nothing beats Snap-On for general tools or Wiha for insulated V-rated electrical tools. See:

Wiha Insulated Tool Kits and Insulated Tool Sets.....Crawford Tool On Line Wholsale Catalog & Store

ST


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## gordonmcleod

I found Wera to have slightly better tips and Wiha
their insulated line is
Products: Wera
the full line is
Products: Wera
knipex
KNIPEX - The Pliers Company. - Home

the water pump I like
KNIPEX - The Pliers Company. - Products - (http://www.pliers-online.com)

linesman pliers
KNIPEX - The Pliers Company. - Products - (http://www.pliers-online.com)

diagonal cutters
KNIPEX - The Pliers Company. - Products - (http://www.pliers-online.com)


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## jmac

*Re: Stage Pin Ferrules*


ship said:


> Ferrules I define as ferrules not that part of the wire set into the crimp part of a termilal. For instance on a Leko, I will use a un-insulated 12ga 9681K65 with a insulated 16ga 7950K94 sleeved inside it for use on a Bates style plug. This if not also doing a 14ga crimp between ferrules if fine standed. McMaster Carr part numbers. By the way, the ferrule crimp tool is also really cool.



Necropost resurrection warning... Wow, just spent days reading the various threads on stage pin connectors and how to terminate, crimper dissertations, etc. I think they could easily be organized and published into something like The Stage Pin Bible, by Ship & Derek (et al)... amazing knowledge and experience.. (Tiny excerpt above).

Anyway, just got a few Bates connectors with the ferrules (because that's what they had) to replace old or twist-lock connectors on a few S4's. Got the above mentioned 12ga and 16ga ferrules per Ship from McMaster-Carr in 2 days.

Two perhaps insignificant questions to Ship, if you're there (or anyone else who can comment)-

The 16ga ferrule is a bit longer than the 12ga. Do you stick the 16ga into the 12ga as far as it can go (so it sticks out the end of the 12ga), or do you hold the tips even, or do you trim the 16ga to make it even, or does it matter at all?

Second, I think you mentioned in another thread to pre-crimp the ferrules a bit before screwing down on them. Must this be with the $50 ferrule crimper mentioned above, or can you just squeeze (how much?) with needlenose pliers...?

Thanks.


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