# Preference for Males for Load-in/Load-out



## DuckJordan (Feb 22, 2011)

I'm not sure but isn't it illegal in the US to have a preference towards a certain gender in any business even if its volunteer work?

There is a certain person here where I go to school that blatantly told me they were giving precedence to males volunteering for a load in and load out of a concert coming into the area. I'm considering filing a complaint with the Board of Regents about this person but want to make sure I'm understanding it correctly.

In the email that was sent out it stated that the first 25 emails to this person would be on volunteer crew for the load-in/load-out when confronted about me getting in after a female friend while she didn't get into the volenteer position (I emailed about 25 minutes after she did). The Person responded with "Thanks for you feedback Jordan, the reason that you got it before (Female Friend) is that we gave preference to men because they will be used for load in and load out. If you have any more concerns please let me know."

Names have been omitted for possible issues.


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## avkid (Feb 22, 2011)

Is the person in charge a member of the faculty at your school?


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## DuckJordan (Feb 22, 2011)

avkid said:


> Is the person in charge a member of the faculty at your school?


 
Yes, The person happens to be VP of SGA which is Student Government Association.


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## MNicolai (Feb 22, 2011)

Strictly speaking, that's inappropriate from a sexism standpoint. _However_, it's volunteering, not employment, so there are probably no legal consequences. It would especially not be inappropriate if the person in charge had a requirement that all people attending the call be able to lift xx of pounds and anyone not capable of that will not be considered (usually this number is 50, but I've seen higher).

If it was a paid position, you'd probably have a legal case, but in the meanwhile you just have an ethical one (although because it's with a school you may have a different case). If you don't like that, then you need to have a _calm and respectful_ conversation with the person in charge of wrangling volunteers about the real reason they don't want women working there. Chances are, it's going to be an ability to lift xx number of pounds, in which case the simple plan of action is for her to say how much she's capable of lifting.

Seriously though, have a conversation with the person in charge before you go way above their head and file a complaint against them.


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## DuckJordan (Feb 22, 2011)

MNicolai said:


> Strictly speaking, that's inappropriate from a sexism standpoint. _However_, it's volunteering, not employment, so there are probably no legal consequences. It would especially not be inappropriate if the person in charge had a requirement that all people attending the call be able to lift xx of pounds and anyone not capable of that will not be considered (usually this number is 50, but I've seen higher).
> 
> If it was a paid position, you'd probably have a legal case, but in the meanwhile you just have an ethical one. If you don't like that, then you need to have a _calm and respectful_ conversation with the person in charge of wrangling volunteers about the real reason they don't want women working there. Chances are, it's going to be an ability to lift xx number of pounds, in which case the simple plan of action is for her to say how much she's capable of lifting.


 

Since its an educational setting I would think you could still get legal with it since its denying an opportunity for learning expansion, What concerns me the most is that no where in the original email asking for volunteers did it say you should be able to lift or move certain weight objects. I am not a very big person and probably wouldn't be able to do as much work as some others and the person they are denying is able to do just as much as I am as far as physical labor. 

I would have no problem with them saying you need to be able to lift certain weights but the fact that they said it was because she was female is the issue here. Since it is in a college institution ethics is a big thing. I wouldn't want to have others learning that its okay to discriminate for tech work.

I'm not saying legal ramifications should happen but am I justified in wanting to talk to someone who has the ability to get the person in charge of the volunteer work to understand that is very frowned upon?


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## derekleffew (Feb 22, 2011)

From http://www.dol.gov/oasam/regs/statutes/titleix.htm :

> No person in the United States shall, on the basis of sex, be excluded from participation in, be denied the benefits of, or be subjected to discrimination under any education program or activity receiving Federal financial assistance, except that: ...



Some may cite the physical requirements ("ability to lift and carry 50 pounds" is a common phrase) to attempt to exclude females, but as long as the requirements are applied equally to both (all?) genders, there's no discrimination.

EDIT: Posted simultaneously with the above.


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## DuckJordan (Feb 22, 2011)

derekleffew said:


> Something from this site TitleIX.info - History Overview may prove helpful.
> 
> Some may cite the physical requirements ("ability to lift and carry 50 pounds" is a common phrase) to attempt to exclude women, but as long as the requirements are applied equally to both (all?) genders, there's no discrimination.


 

Thats the issue it was only against females, the only exclusion since they just got names was for being male or being female.


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## sk8rsdad (Feb 22, 2011)

DuckJordan said:


> Thats the issue it was only against females, the only exclusion since they just got names was for being male or being female.


 
In fairness, this may be what was said but the intent behind it is unknown. It may have been a badly worded response. It may have been the "lift x pound" thing. Maybe it's something else. Ask for clarification before deciding it is a human rights violation and starting the protests.


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## jwl868 (Feb 22, 2011)

(I type too slowly..)

It is possible that there is a school level policy that prohibits sexism, racism, etc for any business or activities conducted by the school. It may not have the legal teeth of a law, but it might carry some weight. (Some non-employment type examples would be purchasing. I wonder if Title IX could come into play, but you’d have to look that one up. Casting and sports is another area where such a school policy would come into play.)

Makes you wonder what other stereo-types the Person holds. Very foolish on his/her part – I’ve had both men and women volunteers doing the loading/loading. Many hands make for light work. 

Joe


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## DuckJordan (Feb 22, 2011)

jwl868 said:


> (I type too slowly..)
> 
> It is possible that there is a school level policy that prohibits sexism, racism, etc for any business or activities conducted by the school. It may not have the legal teeth of a law, but it might carry some weight. (Some non-employment type examples would be purchasing. I wonder if Title IX could come into play, but you’d have to look that one up. Casting and sports is another area where such a school policy would come into play.)
> 
> ...



The person themselves is female, which is as far as I will go with it but another thing that was along with this is the fact that if you volunteered you would get a free ticket to the concert. While i'm not doing it for the free ticket. I found out this is a student here but is again VP of the Student Government Association, So the only person that would be able to hold anything as far as oversee over this person is the dean of the college. We are talking with a couple of the professors in our theater department about what we should do in this situation since they would probably know more than we do about this. 

If it wasn't for needing to get my name in the door here for work, I wouldn't work with this person at all, So I think I am going to have to setup a meeting between her and myself and figure out what the deal is and why she feels males are going to do the job better than females.


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## jstroming (Feb 22, 2011)

A different situation, but I'd like to know how some of the touring guys (crew-chief's, etc) have handled similar situations, read on.....

I have in the past used a labor company in the northeast that has sent 75% women to load-in/out calls. It's a very delicate topic. There are many women who I would want to work with in a second over some guys I've worked with (especially if their cute!!!), but safety was being compromised in sub-freezing temperatures in a blizzard unloading 400lb deck carts down a ramp. I wasn't going to let that happen again. 

I spoke to a labor lawyer who told me as the client and not direct employer it is completely within my right to request men from the labor provider. He told me not to worry about what laws the labor company was breaking, and if it happened again it was completely reasonable for me to not hire the company anymore.


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## derekleffew (Feb 22, 2011)

jstroming said:


> A different situation, but I'd like to know how some of the touring guys (crew-chief's, etc) have handled similar situations, read on...


An anedote that seems pertinent:
Libby Gray (LD for Styx after many years on the road touring with concerts, ice shows, Morpheus Lights, etc.) was told when she was first aspiring to be be a touring technician by (Bob See, Bill McManus, someone else--I can't remember) that he would NEVER hire a female and put her on a touring bus in this industry. Hearing this, of course, just served to make her all the more determined to enter the field and succeed.

Two or three years ago, (female) CB member abbyt wrote an article for _Protocol_ magazine stating (and I'm paraphrasing from memory here because I cannot find the article) that becoming an ETCP-Certified technician has helped her to overcome the, alleged, perception that stagehands should be male.


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## soundlight (Feb 22, 2011)

In this particular situation - a college, where there students are volunteering for a load out and I would not have the ability to choose volunteers based on at least a phone call - I would screen and choose males. This is from extensive experience. I have been the crew supervisor for many load-outs on a college campus, and I have to say that almost all of the female students are not as capable as the male students. *This is not the rule and is certainly not my usual assumption*, but at a college campus where most of the girls are *thin as twigs and break just as easily*, I would screen for males given no other information because based on my experience about 9/10 of my male community service folks are useful whereas only about 4/10 of my female community service folks are useful. By a third of the way thru the load-out most of the girls are usually sitting to the side, standing around watching, or otherwise not helping, even if they were gung-ho about it when we started (since small stuff is usually the first stuff to go). This is because at that point I need people who can move decks, unbolt truss quickly, coil cables, move heavy cases &c. I have seen many, many females who are not capable of what I require for load-out. *Even if they are volunteering,* many may be volunteering because friends are doing it, because they think they might get a chance to see the band, or because their boyfriend is doing it. Again, I speak from my experience and I know this varies from college to college and in general situations beyond this specific type of case I would *not* make this assumption and I don't.

I have worked with many good females in this business, in fact I usually find that those females in the business are more dedicated to there work. In fact there are a few females who, at the college in question, I would bring on to the crew with me just because I knew we would get out of there faster with some experienced hands.

What you have to consider is this: the person in question probably has had bad experiences before with females similar to mine (it's just that I have no choice, the people that work my load-ins and load-outs are doing university/community service and are required to be there). They have been screwed out of an hour or more of sleep due to the lack of hands that can lift and bodies that can move things.

I should add that I'm usually a very strong advocate of gender-blindness, but in this case, I can see how it really comes down to someone losing sleep due to a crew that couldn't do what they were asked.


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## DuckJordan (Feb 22, 2011)

Even after I responded to her email with her work experience it was still because she is a girl. To me I understand what your are talking about but if said person had prior experience with load in and load outs, with positive performance recommendations would you still prefer males? 

sent from my Droid incredible using tapatalk.


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## soundlight (Feb 22, 2011)

DuckJordan said:


> Even after I responded to her email with her work experience it was still because she is a girl. To me I understand what your are talking about but if said person had prior experience with load in and load outs, with positive performance recommendations would you still prefer males?


 
I was talking about an entirely blind situation. At this point it depends who those recommendations come from. If it comes from someone who I can trust, then I'd be fine letting the female in question work, no problem at all. If it came from another person applying to volunteer, I'd probably brush it off as someone being buddies with someone else and them wanting to work as well. While I know you mean well in sending your work experience, there are a lot of people that will really pull some messed-up lying $*** in order to be able to get their friends in. Trust me on this, I've been through it from both sides and I know about how it works. You have to look at it from the other side.


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## MNicolai (Feb 22, 2011)

DuckJordan said:


> Even after I responded to her email with her work experience it was still because she is a girl. To me I understand what your are talking about but if said person had prior experience with load in and load outs, with positive performance recommendations would you still prefer males?



It's not like this is a stage manager's position. This is for a few hours of work pushing heavy cases around, wrapping cables, hanging/striking lights -- a BFA in Technical Theatre wouldn't make your friend make more qualified to volunteer in that capacity when the trait that's being looked for in a person is someone who's capable of pushing and lifting heavy objects comfortably for an extended period of time.


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## DuckJordan (Feb 22, 2011)

MNicolai said:


> It's not like this is a stage manager's position. This is for a few hours of work pushing heavy cases around, wrapping cables, hanging/striking lights -- a BFA in Technical Theatre wouldn't make your friend make more qualified to volunteer in that capacity when the trait that's being looked for in a person is someone who's capable of pushing and lifting heavy objects comfortably for an extended period of time.


 

No but when the experience is in lifting and pushing heavy object it does. This was stressed in my email back to her.


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## porkchop (Feb 22, 2011)

You probably have a very good reason to go up to the person in question and have a reasonable conversation about giving preference by gender. Given that the person told you point blank that they preferred you because of gender, it's very likely that they are unaware of the possible ramifications of such a decision. There are times to go over someone's head and use the law to get a superior in trouble, but there are a lot more times where you can have a simple conversation with the person and show them why the situation is wrong. Even if they get defensive and argue that what they did is right (very common), you will usually notice that what they do the next time is a little different and much more in line with what should happen. 
If it where me, and I've been there, I would talk to the person one on one and voice why I think this is wrong. I would expect to hear a very defensive argument and to go away feeling that nothing was any different. Then I would wait till then next applicable situation and see if anything was actually different. If you make them aware of the situation they'll usually change, if they don't that's when I would complain to more upper management. The bottom line is it's a very political business you don't want to go over someone head without very good reason.


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## photoatdv (Feb 22, 2011)

Being a female in this industry there's nothing that drives me crazy more than unfounded discrimination. That said, I also have WAY better luck with male volunteers and physical labor. Typically what I do to avoid this is ask a few questions on an Application to Volunteer or whatever you want to call it. It can be as simple as how much can you lift?, do you have any previous experience?, why do you want to do this? and do you have any physical limitations relevant to this position?

That gives you way more to screen on than gender, and can be done in 5 minutes on google forms.

If its an event where we are choosing people from the event volunteer pool, I typically ask for strong guys, and if any girls step up I take them too. If they can't cut it then I rotate them out with another person-- but at least I give them a fair chance.


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## mstaylor (Feb 23, 2011)

My experience with college student volunteers is if you need a ten man crew, you better have at least 25 to 30 kids. I don't care if it is girls or boys, as long as i have enough to the heavy stuff up the ramp. I find that a small percentage, boys and girls, will show up in flipflops or be useless in some manner. A small percentage will have a work ethic and have some knowledge. In the middle are a group that are willing to work but don't know anything. I'm fine with that. I split the middle roaders onto crews and give them to the experienced kids. I try to use the useless group but if not I find them busy work so they don't get hurt. 
I don't care if they are males or females, enough of them and you will get the job done. Professionally, I have a core of females that are excellent, My asst, a couple of my ground riggers and at least three climbers are all female. I also have some that are board ops and camera ops.


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## shiben (Feb 23, 2011)

File the complaint with the board of reagents. What happened there is almost certainly against college laws, and appears to be against federal regulation as well. Plus, its kind of silly. I work with more women than men pretty regularly, and for the most part, they dont have issues doing the work (until it came time to move 300+lb landscape timbers, but everyone had trouble with that). Its a school, they really ought not do that, and someone could have a bit of a sit down with them. Possibly, instead of the BoR have your friend complain to their boss (they ought have a person between them and the regents, right?) If nothing happens, work the call, if you dont want the ticket, give it to your friend?


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## abbyt (Feb 23, 2011)

derekleffew said:


> Two or three years ago, (female) CB member abbyt wrote an article for _Protocol_ magazine stating (and I'm paraphrasing from memory here because I cannot find the article) that becoming an ETCP-Certified technician has helped her to overcome the, alleged, perception that stagehands should be male.


 
The Abby in question would be me. There's definitely male preference in the industry. (But- that is certainly not isolated to the entertainment industry, in my opinion.) 

I guess, in my experience, I feel like men are frequently assumed capable of doing the job until proven otherwise...and women, on the other hand, are frequently assumed incapable or *almost* capable until proven otherwise. I've found that as the years have gone on and I've moved up in my career, I don't get that attitude as often as I used to. I'm not sure if my "give a darn" is busted, or if it's a sign of different times. I have found it easier as time goes by that the more letters behind my name and certificates on the wall, the smoother things tend to go in these regards. 

As Derek alluded to above, the ETCP Certification has certainly helped me come into some situations on more equal footing. 

I do think the original poster should have a conversation about this and point out the "perceived" gender bias. If education solves the problem, there's no need to escalate it further, in my opinion. Often, ignorance is curable with the right information and the right tone in which that info is presented.

-Abby


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## dbthetd (Feb 23, 2011)

what school?


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