# Male XLR wall jacks only?



## ACTSTech (Jan 28, 2021)

My electrician came back with a proposal to install all the XLR wall jacks as male only. The architect told him that in most of the high school and middle school auditoriums, the first thing that the users complain about is the XLR jacks breaking. Because most of these are female with a spring clip, he recommends that you eliminate that "unnecessary headache" of having to repair a jack and just buy cables with a double female end...

Has anyone heard of this before? After making a few calls, several auditorium managers/band directors/janitors confirm that's what they've installed. My brain hurts.


----------



## Aaron Becker (Jan 28, 2021)

I wouldn't be asking an electricians advice on what audio connectors to install. 
Aside from the obvious need for a bunch of gender benders or custom cables (and training people on how to use them)... why not just get non-latching females? 

It's been 5+ years since I've sourced XLRs - and now I don't see the -NLs on Neutriks website anymore. Did they discontinue them?!


----------



## DrewE (Jan 28, 2021)

Never heard of this, which of course does not mean in any way that it doesn't happen. I would do most everything in my power to push back. If there are output XLRs installed for e.g. active speaker feeds, then it would make sense for them (and them only) to be male, while input XLRs are female.

I'm also a bit dubious of the idea that male connectors would be significantly less likely to be damaged than female ones....


----------



## derekleffew (Jan 28, 2021)

ACTSTech said:


> Has anyone heard of this before? After making a few calls, several auditorium managers/band directors/janitors confirm that's what they've installed. My brain hurts.


One of my colleges was like this. No idea why, other than incompetence. It took us two years, a little at a time, but eventually we made all mic inputs female and eliminated all the the lesbian mic cables.

Don't let it happen in the first place!


----------



## MNicolai (Jan 28, 2021)

ACTSTech said:


> The architect told him that in most of the high school and middle school auditoriums, the first thing that the users complain about is the XLR jacks breaking. Because most of these are female with a spring clip, he recommends that you eliminate that "unnecessary headache" of having to repair a jack and just buy cables with a double female end...



Huh?

I've never heard of this being an issue, and certainly what's being proposed is not kosher and is a recipe for disaster. That is going to be a nightmare cabling wise and risks pumping 48VDC phantom power into devices that are absolutely not intended for that and may become damaged as a result. Maybe if someone is using generic XLR connectors and wall plates like you'd find on Amazon or Monoprice, but if your system is being spec'd with Neutrik you should not have any issues.

Under no circumstances should you allow an electrical contractor OR an architect to be making decisions about audio connectors and cabling. You need a qualified, competent AV installer to be performing whatever work it is that you're doing.

If anyone gives you pushback, ask them to consider "Why aren't all AC receptacles male?"


----------



## gafftapegreenia (Jan 28, 2021)

The only XLR jacks in the wall that are male should be for Clear-Com
.


----------



## chausman (Jan 28, 2021)

gafftapegreenia said:


> The only XLR jacks in the wall that are male should be for Clear-Com
> .



Or outputs intended for powered speakers.


----------



## gafftaper (Jan 29, 2021)

I have spent 30 years working with a variety of high school, church and college sound systems. All of them places where volunteers and people who are just learning are the key workers. Broken XLR spring clips has never been a major problem. I think I've replaced two in all that time. If they break they are very easy to fix. If you don't know how, learning to solder an XLR plug is a great first step in improving your skills. If the electrician says they always break they are probably using low quality parts. Insist that your plugs all be made by Neutrik for long lasting quality. 

Below are the standard connections. : 
-Input Jacks should always be female XLR plugs
-Output jacks to self powered monitor speakers (the ones with a built in amplifier that you need to plug in to power) should be wired with male XLR
plugs
-Jacks for the Clear-com system should be male XLR plugs
-Output jacks for passive speakers (no power required to the speaker, instead there are extra amplifiers off stage in the audio rack for them) should be wired with Speakon plugs (Speakon is the new standard, 1/4" is the old standard so if you have a lot of old speakers you plan to use you might want to go 1/4" but Speakon is the preferred route for the present and future. There are also easy to use 1/4" to Speakon adapters). 

The reason these are standard is because all of the equipment you will want to connect to these plugs is wired this way. If you let them wire them another way you will hate yourself for decades until you replace them all. It'll be slow and painful work. 

Somebody double check that I didn't mix this up... I'm posting at 1am


----------



## DrewE (Jan 29, 2021)

gafftaper said:


> Below are the standard connections. :
> -Input Jacks should always be female XLR plugs
> -Output jacks to self powered monitor speakers (the ones with a built in amplifier that you need to plug in to power) should be wired with male XLR
> plugs
> ...



That looks entirely right to me. 

Neturik does offer combination Speakon and 1/4" connectors, though annoyingly only in PCB-mount versions (or maybe I should say PCB-connect chassis-mount).


----------



## DaveySimps (Jan 29, 2021)

This is crazy. Heaven forbid they focus on the root cause (poor or lack of training of staff / students). Interesting what educational institutions will focus on and spend money on. I have been working for them for 20 years, I continue to be amazed at what gets funded out of perceived value or ignorance.

~Dave


----------



## gafftaper (Jan 29, 2021)

DaveySimps said:


> This is crazy. Heaven forbid they focus on the root cause (poor or lack of training of staff / students). Interesting what educational institutions will focus on and spend money on. I have been working for them for 20 years, I continue to be amazed at what gets funded put of perceived value or ignorance.
> 
> ~Dave


Schools will do terrible things on the advice of an architect who knows nothing about theater in order to "save money". When for a few thousand dollars more, a tiny cost on a multi million dollar project, they could hire a consultant who actually knows what they are talking about. So frustrating.


----------



## TimMc (Jan 29, 2021)

ACTSTech said:


> My electrician came back with a proposal to install all the XLR wall jacks as male only. The architect told him that in most of the high school and middle school auditoriums, the first thing that the users complain about is the XLR jacks breaking. Because most of these are female with a spring clip, he recommends that you eliminate that "unnecessary headache" of having to repair a jack and just buy cables with a double female end...
> 
> Has anyone heard of this before? After making a few calls, several auditorium managers/band directors/janitors confirm that's what they've installed. My brain hurts.



Your electrician should be slapped back to his/her/their trade. You can't "just buy cables with a double female end" at Banjo Depot. You can custom order them at a significant premium, though, and have a non standard installation that will teach students wrong information about audio systems in the process.

Where do people come up with this shat?


----------



## kmccoy (Jan 29, 2021)

While it's certainly not standard for us to do installs like this, I don't think it's that ridiculous for someone seeing a common complaint in their previous installs (broken spring tabs in the XLR socket connectors) and looking for a way to address that complaint through a straightforward cable assembly that reverses the connectors. There are plenty of reasons not to do it, which have been addressed here, but I think it's great that folks are seeing problems and working to address them. I hope that architect/electrician eventually wind up connecting with pro audio folks who can help them continue that attitude while understanding the bigger picture of why some of the choices were made in the past.


----------



## TimMc (Jan 29, 2021)

kmccoy said:


> While it's certainly not standard for us to do installs like this, I don't think it's that ridiculous for someone seeing a common complaint in their previous installs (broken spring tabs in the XLR socket connectors) and looking for a way to address that complaint through a straightforward cable assembly that reverses the connectors. There are plenty of reasons not to do it, which have been addressed here, but I think it's great that folks are seeing problems and working to address them. I hope that architect/electrician eventually wind up connecting with pro audio folks who can help them continue that attitude while understanding the bigger picture of why some of the choices were made in the past.



The solution would be to specify non-locking female XLR. Without a doubt this is one of the stupidest things I've heard from an electrician playing audio person - most of them are actually much smarter than this one.


----------



## Jay Ashworth (Jan 29, 2021)

MNicolai said:


> Huh?
> 
> I've never heard of this being an issue



Oh yeah. The release clips on A3F's break and jam a *lot*, if you're not careful with them, usually locking in a plug in the process.

We've had 3 or 4 of them break that way in the 5 years I've been at my main house. Sure, it's mostly an annoyance, but if you're using everything in the box, and curtain is in 90 minutes, it's a pretty MAJOR annoyance.


----------



## FMEng (Jan 29, 2021)

The solution is simple. Use Neutrik.


----------



## Jay Ashworth (Jan 29, 2021)

You bet, but I didn't build the room, and it has 36 source jacks on the walls, *riveted to the box covers*...


----------



## TimMc (Jan 29, 2021)

Jay Ashworth said:


> You bet, but I didn't build the room, and it has 36 source jacks on the walls, *riveted to the box covers*...


And if *you* are not permitted to personally fix them (or it's not your job), what should be a 45 minute fix with $15 in parts becomes a $250 service call from a contractor or waiting 4 months for the building engineers to see to it. I understand. 🕶


----------



## Jay Ashworth (Jan 30, 2021)

Honestly, it's that my soldering isn't good enough. I did one, and it's held, but I'm not entirely confident in it. I do *not* want the entire room's reputation hanging on *my* solder joints.


----------



## Jay Ashworth (Jan 30, 2021)

Though, for the record, 36 Neutrik A3F panel mount jacks is a lot more than $15 in parts. ;-)


----------



## DrewE (Jan 30, 2021)

Jay Ashworth said:


> You bet, but I didn't build the room, and it has 36 source jacks on the walls, *riveted to the box covers*...


Rivets aren't that big a deal, really. Drilling out a pop rivet is child's play, and installing a new pop rivet is likewise very simple and quick. They have some advantages over screws, too; most notably, they cannot work loose over time in the same way that a screw can.


----------



## RonHebbard (Jan 30, 2021)

Jay Ashworth said:


> Oh yeah. The release clips on A3F's break and jam a *lot*, if you're not careful with them, usually locking in a plug in the process.
> 
> We've had 3 or 4 of them break that way in the 5 years I've been at my main house. Sure, it's mostly an annoyance, but if you're using everything in the box, and curtain is in 90 minutes, it's a pretty MAJOR annoyance.


* @Jay Ashworth* When Neutrik initially invented / marketed NL2 Speak On's, a common uneducated / inexperienced / untrained ape trick was to mis-mate NL2 cable ends with panel mounts rotated 180 degrees from correct (Touring rock groups HATED discovering this when hastily striking for an 11:00 p.m. load out). Yes, you can do this if you lean on them hard enough to momentarily / slightly deform the plastic prior to twisting them. Once mis-mated in this manner, it's basically impossible to un-mate them sans damage. 
Toodleoo! 
Ron Hebbard


----------



## TimMc (Jan 30, 2021)

Jay Ashworth said:


> Though, for the record, 36 Neutrik A3F panel mount jacks is a lot more than $15 in parts. ;-)


Per damaged connector...


----------



## YesItWillWork (Jan 30, 2021)

We ended up with this situation when we opened our new facility last year, albeit unintentionally. The drawings clearly identified the count of male and female XLR connectors at each of the various panels around the building. The explanatory notes then made clear that the gender is to be reversed in the central patch rack. Unfortunately the contractor missed that note and thought it made more sense for both ends of a wayline to match. 

This was only discovered when when I went to patch something for an event during our opening week. Needless to say the contractor spent a lot of time resoldering connectors the next week.


----------



## Craig Hauber (Feb 1, 2021)

TimMc said:


> Per damaged connector...


Isn't "A3F" a Switchcraft part number for a female cord connector?
or has that now become the "Kleenex" terminology describing anything XLR?

I used to exclusively install D3F switchcraft panel mounts (and their Cannon and Amphenol equivalents.) I found they held up so much better than the original Neutrik ones (P-type). Nowadays when everything is pre-punched to fit the smaller standardized D-size Neutrik style I've switched to them -but it's been years since I've done an XLR installation.
I did have a quick trick with the bench grinder to eliminate the latching action on the D3F types before the non-latching varieties became far easier to source.


----------



## Jay Ashworth (Feb 1, 2021)

It is a Switchcraft designator, yes, but it tells me what pin count and polarity, without any fuss, so I've generalized it.


----------



## Jay Ashworth (Feb 1, 2021)

YesItWillWork said:


> We ended up with this situation when we opened our new facility last year, albeit unintentionally. The drawings clearly identified the count of male and female XLR connectors at each of the various panels around the building. The explanatory notes then made clear that the gender is to be reversed in the central patch rack. Unfortunately the contractor missed that note and thought it made more sense for both ends of a wayline to match.
> 
> This was only discovered when when I went to patch something for an event during our opening week. Needless to say the contractor spent a lot of time resoldering connectors the next week.


I don't mean to dump on you, but didn't you have an acceptance walkthrough somewhere before that first show


----------



## ACTSTech (Feb 1, 2021)

MNicolai said:


> Under no circumstances should you allow an electrical contractor OR an architect to be making decisions about audio connectors and cabling. You need a qualified, competent AV installer to be performing whatever work it is that you're doing


This is the problem in my area, which I've lamented over and over in many posts on here...

Our location is not great for knowledgeable people, therefore we get a lot of people who "know" what they're doing because they've "done it before." As a non-profit, dealing with tax codes and grants and whatnot, we HAVE to accept the lowest bid most of the time, so we get some questionable deals. I have no desire to deal with questionable right now, and reading riser diagrams and cabling specifications and everything else is so frustrating. I don't ever proclaim to know everything, and I know things are changing, but the XLR thing blew my mind, especially when I made calls and found out that these people have done it in MANY places.

After reading all of the posts (Thank you for proving that I'm not insane, or at least we're all on the same page of insanity), I sent a message to both the electrician and architect reiterating my specs (which you all seconded) and they have already started pushing back. They also are VERY RELUCTANT to use Neutrik because it is a "new" technology. I said I didn't care, spec the SpeakON twist-lock connectors for the speakers, the female XLR on the wall, and my DMX design (which was in a different post). Now to battle their custom cloud panels which will help the acoustics... because in a hard surfaced room we definitely need more hard surfaces to create more bounce... and they fabricate these themselves...

Thanks for the help!


----------



## MNicolai (Feb 1, 2021)

Tell them to pound sand. Put it in writing that as an owner's representative, Switchcraft connectors and "all-male" panel mounts shall not be acceptable.

You're the owner and the district standard moving forward is Neutrik. Neutrik's dominated the connector market for at least the last 2 decades. There's nothing "new" about it.


----------



## ACTSTech (Feb 1, 2021)

MNicolai said:


> Tell them to pound sand. Put it in writing that as an owner's representative, Switchcraft connectors and "all-male" panel mounts shall not be acceptable.
> 
> You're the owner and the district standard moving forward is Neutrik. Neutrik's dominated the connector market for at least the last 2 decades. There's nothing "new" about it.


Reply from the "design team":

"This will greatly impact the price of our quote. We understand your perspective and greatly differ on installation needs."

Apparently the cost of female XLR jacks is greatly different...


----------



## almorton (Feb 1, 2021)

Maybe they mean using Neutrik connectors will impact on the quote. although to be fair female connectors _are _slightly costlier than the same quality male connectors_._ They may have quoted using no name XLRs, too


----------



## ACTSTech (Feb 1, 2021)

almorton said:


> Maybe they mean using Neutrik connectors will impact on the quote. although to be fair female connectors _are _slightly costlier than the same quality male connectors_._ They may have quoted using no name XLRs, too


But list price for female XLR chassis connectors is roughly $3 a piece. So when I see a quote for something outrageous, I'm going to be upset.

Mind you, I'm not against paying for it to be done right the first time. But I'm not going to accept the bait and switch that people in this area seem to be adept at doing. I get bashed for people thinking I'm not willing to pay, but I'm NOT willing to pay for substandard work priced far above market value.


----------



## MNicolai (Feb 1, 2021)

Switchcraft isn't any/much cheaper than Neutrik. They're probably using generic XLR connectors, which would be why they are having problems with jacks failing in the first place.

I would pick up the phone to the architect and reiterate your position. Don't be afraid to lambast the electrical a little a bit. "If I understand this correctly, the electrical contractor is pricing the project with substandard components and proposing a convoluted workaround rather than providing a quality, professional-grade product. If the female connectors they typically provide have routine failures, we should not expect that the male connectors they want to provide would fare any better. We will not accept solutions that deviate from industry standards and practices based on the electrical contractor providing generic XLR connectors that are known to become faulty over time."

As you said, the unit price -- especially when buying in bulk -- is not very high. More of the cost is in labor for soldering/termination than anything else. The material cost for the connectors should be insignificant.

Right now on Markertek....

Neutrik NC3FD-L-BAG-1
QTY 1-99 ............. $2.95/ea
QTY 100-249 ..... $2.89/ea

Neutrik NC3MD-L-BAG-1
QTY 1-99 ............. $3.26/ea 
QTY 100-249 ..... $3.13/ea

Ignore list price -- nobody ever pays list.

Don't be afraid to play dumb and make the contractor explain it to you why their pricing will change significantly. That's usually where you find out if they're playing games or if there's something else going on. It could be the contractor is trying to get it through their usual electrical contracting distributors which will not get the kind of discounted pricing you'd get by ordering from a proper AV dealer/distributor. In any case, you've probably exhausted the usefulness of trying to communicate this over email and now it's time to pick up the phone.


----------



## almorton (Feb 1, 2021)

ACTSTech said:


> But list price for female XLR chassis connectors is roughly $3 a piece. So when I see a quote for something outrageous, I'm going to be upset.


Yes, but I bet the same male connector is 50¢ different. That's about the difference (for a Neutrik) between male and female here in the UK, Not much in it, true.


ACTSTech said:


> Mind you, I'm not against paying for it to be done right the first time. But I'm not going to accept the bait and switch that people in this area seem to be adept at doing. I get bashed for people thinking I'm not willing to pay, but I'm NOT willing to pay for substandard work priced far above market value.


Absolutely, you're right to stick to your guns.


----------



## Malabaristo (Feb 1, 2021)

I don't have anything else meaningful to add to this conversation--it's obviously a ridiculous approach, and everyone has covered that well. I will say that you should feel free to pass on our communal thanks to the electricians for providing us all with this nice bit of comedy. I can't imagine I was the only one who was literally laughing out loud while reading your description of what they were proposing.


----------



## gafftaper (Feb 1, 2021)

ACTSTech said:


> Reply from the "design team":
> "This will greatly impact the price of our quote. We understand your perspective and greatly differ on installation needs."
> Apparently the cost of female XLR jacks is greatly different...


Perhaps they have already got the quote and this is now a change order. That could raise the price quite a bit.


----------



## Jay Ashworth (Feb 1, 2021)

Components are cheap; people are expensive.

If I had to work in your facility with backwards XLRs on all the patch points, I would, no crap, quit.


----------



## TimMc (Feb 2, 2021)

Jay Ashworth said:


> Components are cheap; people are expensive.
> 
> If I had to work in your facility with backwards XLRs on all the patch points, I would, no crap, quit.


I hope you'd discover it during the facility walk through prior to accepting an offer. These are "finds of foreboding" - when you see things like this it makes you wonder what other non-standard delights await your discovery.


----------



## Crisp image (Feb 2, 2021)

Add the cost of gender benders to the mix and it most likely will be cost neutral to have the parts changed to the correct ones. You could ask them to supply all the adaptors to go with the wrong parts.


----------



## Jay Ashworth (Feb 2, 2021)

TimMc said:


> I hope you'd discover it during the facility walk through prior to accepting an offer. These are "finds of foreboding" - when you see things like this it makes you wonder what other non-standard delights await your discovery.


"Brown M&M's."


----------



## ACTSTech (Feb 2, 2021)

gafftaper said:


> Perhaps they have already got the quote and this is now a change order. That could raise the price quite a bit.


That's what concerns me the most, nothing has gone out for bid yet. We're in design and spec stage, not purchase and install.

Again, the drawback of this area is there seems to be one architect that's used, and everyone gets the template approach. And I have a feeling that if they get their way, there will be one bidder for everything rather than let other companies bid.

I still don't understand why they would only provide male wall jacks though. Everything in my source catalogs and searches show that the prices are about the same. Nothing changes with the wire, nothing changes with the boxes, nothing changes with the plate.


----------



## TimMc (Feb 2, 2021)

ACTSTech said:


> That's what concerns me the most, nothing has gone out for bid yet. We're in design and spec stage, not purchase and install.
> 
> Again, the drawback of this area is there seems to be one architect that's used, and everyone gets the template approach. And I have a feeling that if they get their way, there will be one bidder for everything rather than let other companies bid.
> 
> I still don't understand why they would only provide male wall jacks though. Everything in my source catalogs and searches show that the prices are about the same. Nothing changes with the wire, nothing changes with the boxes, nothing changes with the plate.



You pulled the curtain away from the copy 'n' paste and now that folks see their BS, they went defensive.


----------



## MNicolai (Feb 2, 2021)

ACTSTech said:


> I still don't understand why they would only provide male wall jacks though. Everything in my source catalogs and searches show that the prices are about the same. Nothing changes with the wire, nothing changes with the boxes, nothing changes with the plate.



Hard to say. Could be they're using generic connectors and Neutrik is a bump up in which case $1 connectors may become $3 connectors. Could be they have a large stock of generic wall plates or connectors and are trying to pressure you into using them so they can clear inventory off of their shelves. Could be they don't know where to source proper equipment at reasonable prices. Could be they were banking on using XLR's with screw terminal connectors and going with proper connectors means someone has to solder them. Also could simply be that they're embarrassed and are trying to defend their original proposal rather than look at facts, or that they don't know what they don't know.

Probably some combination of originally quoting generic products and trying to defend their original recommendation as a matter of pride for fear of looking silly --- possibly because they've already gone all-male-plugs-all-the-time on other projects and already have some soul searching to do.

Lot of variables. None of which change the facts that in any installation the cost of XLR connectors is negligible. Now if we were talking fiber, ethercon, or MASS connectors -- then you are talking about connectors with major cost implications, but not standard XLR's.


----------



## gafftaper (Feb 2, 2021)

Print out pricing for Neutrik and Switchcraft in Male and female. Then show them that you can't go to somewhere like Sweetwater and buy a 25' Female to Female cable. Major companies like Hosa and Proco don't make Female to Female cables. So you will spend the next 25 years special ordering cables or cutting the ends off of them and resoldering new connectors on them. Ask them which is cheaper.


----------



## MNicolai (Feb 2, 2021)

gafftaper said:


> Print out pricing for Neutrik and Switchcraft in Male and female. Then show them that you can't go to somewhere like Sweetwater and buy a 25' Female to Female cable. Major companies like Hosa and Proco don't make Female to Female cables. So you will spend the next 25 years special ordering cables or cutting the ends off of them and resoldering new connectors on them. Ask them which is cheaper.



No problem. Great deals on 600 MHz wireless to be had. No more cables.

Just make sure to earmark a line item in the district budget for FCC enforcement down the road.


----------



## ACTSTech (Feb 3, 2021)

MNicolai said:


> No problem. Great deals on 600 MHz wireless to be had. No more cables.
> 
> Just make sure to earmark a line item in the district budget for FCC enforcement down the road.


FCC enforcement? We have an old LP Analog TV station still broadcasting like a flamethrower that you can pick up on toasters occasionally. Even the "local" TV stations have complained, but there's no interest from anyone in meddling in a religious broadcast in a rinky-dink area.

I'm better with wireless mics, but I'm still VERY afraid of wireless DMX. I know a lot of people swear by it. And we don't do anything large scale, and this house will be small, but I still rely on wiring. When I have interference from unknown sources that hops all over the spectrum, I'm not putting my shows in the hands of wireless technology. My 6 wireless mics have yet to have a show where there wasn't a problem from 20' away.


----------



## almorton (Feb 3, 2021)

I certainly wouldn't trust a show to _cheap_ wireless DMX from the bay or th elocal DJ shop, but something properly engineered like the RC4 or City Theatrical solutions are very robust.


----------



## mbrown3039 (Feb 3, 2021)

ACTSTech said:


> My electrician came back with a proposal to install all the XLR wall jacks as male only. The architect told him that in most of the high school and middle school auditoriums, the first thing that the users complain about is the XLR jacks breaking. Because most of these are female with a spring clip, he recommends that you eliminate that "unnecessary headache" of having to repair a jack and just buy cables with a double female end...



Whaaaatttttt???????????????????????

No, no, and double-no. Our industry has standards, just like any other. Ask the EC if he can "just" install non-locking 480V outlets, or tape breakers to lock them in the "on" position (I mean, it's easier than constantly resetting them or fixing the root issue, right?) Granted, these are code matters, not industry standards, but that should help them understand. If not, ask the architect to only install doors without locks - that way, no one will ever get locked out. Also, windows that don't open will never get stuck, right?


----------



## mbrown3039 (Feb 3, 2021)

TimMc said:


> Your electrician should be slapped back to his/her/their trade. You can't "just buy cables with a double female end" at Banjo Depot.



"Banjo Depot" =


----------



## GameCrasher545 (Feb 3, 2021)

Aaron Becker said:


> ...
> It's been 5+ years since I've sourced XLRs - and now I don't see the -NLs on Neutriks website anymore. Did they discontinue them?!



I just had a look and they still do them it just appears as if they might of changed how they’re labeled, as if you looked at the A series XLR panel connectors they all come in a -0 variation which has no latch but instead has spring retention. As most others have said genuine Neutrik connectors as great quality and very rarely break. We had a couple of cheap XLR panel connectors that broke so we replaced them with genuine Neutrik ones and they are so much better and we haven’t had any issues with them. Especially if it’s in a school don’t cheap out on them just for the sake of saving a few dollars because it isn’t the right way of doing it and it will confuse people. Do it right the first time.


----------



## MBrodin (Feb 3, 2021)

Wow, this takes me back. 30 years ago starting out, I worked for an install company that did this. When I asked why all XLRM wall jacks, I was told it was cheaper and it fit a shallow box better. If I remember right, Switchcraft XLRF we’re longer (deeper) than the XLRM, at least some models were. So it could have to do with the box spec. At least that’s my memory of a 30 year old conversation.
Anyway, I got laid off and went independent. The client called me because I was the one they knew best. They were wondering why their mics wouldn’t plug into their cables. Both ends were male! I ended up switching all those jacks out using a new manufacturer I hadn’t heard of, Neutrik. I could do that because I didn’t have established/exclusive relationships with vendors. Remember this was really early internet days and most business was still done, via phone, fax and letter. Or you could get a “catalog” look up line descriptions of models. Detailed information wasn’t just a “click” away. 

Today, there is no reason why this can’t be done right the first time.


----------



## Pyrotech (Feb 3, 2021)

gafftaper said:


> Schools will do terrible things on the advice of an architect who knows nothing about theater in order to "save money". When for a few thousand dollars more, a tiny cost on a multi million dollar project, they could hire a consultant who actually knows what they are talking about. So frustrating.



I got a chuckle out of this as I have mostly seen the opposite. 

One of my early electric utility large customer design projects was connecting a new elementary school. I met with the contractor on site for a variety of issues, one of which was making sure we had the right compression connectors to fit their service wires to our transformer. When we looked through the plans, the architect had specified copper cable rather than the more typical (service panel to utility) aluminum. I mentioned that not only was this more expensive for the school, we would have to special order connectors to fit and why wouldn't they just use standard size aluminum.

The contractor looked at me for a while and said 'Son, you haven't been at this very long, have you?'

I said, well, no, but...

He laughed and said 'Architects get paid on a percentage of the project cost, why would they specify the cheapest option?'

Oh...

I graduated to a whole new level of cynicism that day.


----------



## KyMask (Feb 3, 2021)

I was told that the reason the XLR plugs are male is because students would stick a pencil into the female plugs and break off the lead in the holes. Our entire auditorium was wired with all male plugs and we didn't have a problem. When we decided we didn't need the mic plugs I rewired them and made it an intercom system instead.


----------



## ACTSTech (Feb 3, 2021)

Here's an add on:

The plan is, and always has been, that our 16x4 snake is being mounted where the "pit" is being planned. That gives us a good spot for a lot of inputs, feeds from the orchestra, etc... The architect just asked "How do you plan on wiring that?" My response, "You plug it in, no wiring or adapters required." It makes me really question how they could have handled multi-million dollar projects for the last 20+ years. They've done at least 7 high schools, at least that if not double middle and elementary schools, colleges and universities... I have to be missing something.

The band director when I called to ask about the all-male jacks asked me if I ever had problems with the phantom power on XLR jacks. Apparently his jacks along the front of the stage are wired so they share a common ground on pin 1. I never heard of it, but the more I think about it, I'd assume that using the wrong cables to begin with (two conductors no ground maybe) was the issue, then it was haphazardly corrected by jumping from pin to pin on the jacks. Since a fair amount of people don't ever think about anything except a hand-held cardioid, they probably wouldn't notice if there was no +48 on the line. Highly doubtful, but has anyone ever experienced that?


----------



## YesItWillWork (Feb 3, 2021)

Jay Ashworth said:


> I don't mean to dump on you, but didn't you have an acceptance walkthrough somewhere before that first show



I would've killed for the time for that. The whole project was months behind schedule (don't get me started), so we all had higher priorities than looking at XLR waylines.


----------



## gafftaper (Feb 3, 2021)

ACTSTech said:


> Here's an add on:
> 
> The plan is, and always has been, that our 16x4 snake is being mounted where the "pit" is being planned. That gives us a good spot for a lot of inputs, feeds from the orchestra, etc... The architect just asked "How do you plan on wiring that?" My response, "You plug it in, no wiring or adapters required." It makes me really question how they could have handled multi-million dollar projects for the last 20+ years. They've done at least 7 high schools, at least that if not double middle and elementary schools, colleges and universities... I have to be missing something.
> 
> The band director when I called to ask about the all-male jacks asked me if I ever had problems with the phantom power on XLR jacks. Apparently his jacks along the front of the stage are wired so they share a common ground on pin 1. I never heard of it, but the more I think about it, I'd assume that using the wrong cables to begin with (two conductors no ground maybe) was the issue, then it was haphazardly corrected by jumping from pin to pin on the jacks. Since a fair amount of people don't ever think about anything except a hand-held cardioid, they probably wouldn't notice if there was no +48 on the line. Highly doubtful, but has anyone ever experienced that?



Both your comment about the snake in the pit and the phantom power have me worried that it sounds like they are talking about old analog gear. Your theater should have a large digital I/O unit in the rack distributing XLR to wall ports AND an ethernet line (preferably lines with a little patch panel) that runs to the stage for a digital snake head. Allowing you to drop a digital snake head anywhere on stage that you want with a single ethernet cable.


----------



## MNicolai (Feb 3, 2021)

*Re: I/O at Pit*
Like @gafftaper said, analog infrastructure is dying off. I still pepper a few inputs/outputs here and there for things where you don't want to have digital stage boxes set up all the time, but what it sounds like they're talking about is taking a premanufactured 16x4 portable snake and bolting it to the wall and the cable back to FOH. That's a very poor practice for a long term installation and those are -- again -- likely points of failure especially if they're buying a cheap 16x4 snake like something from ProCo or whatever.
*
Re: Pin 1 Problems*
Could be a few different things. Grounding issue somewhere, someone may have misunderstood how you should lift the shield at one of _some _audio cables to avoid ground hums, could be that the drain wire has just become damaged or shorted. It could be that the shields are shorting to conduit ground. Really hard to say without inspecting it or seeing detailed photos inside of back boxes and at termination locations. If they do indeed have a common ground wire, that's some really bad juju because that probably means the balanced cables are not properly shielded from EM interference and the positive and negative conductors on each mic cable may not even be twisted together, which can also lead to problems with interference and signal degradation.

Honestly sounds like you need a professional AV consultant on your side if this is what you're up against. If you want to send me drawings/specs, I'd be happy to do a cursory review and give markups/opinions to you. In any case, I'm getting the sense that you have bigger problems than just an electrician wanting to use the wrong connectors.


----------



## RonHebbard (Feb 3, 2021)

ACTSTech said:


> Here's an add on:
> 
> The plan is, and always has been, that our 16x4 snake is being mounted where the "pit" is being planned. That gives us a good spot for a lot of inputs, feeds from the orchestra, etc... The architect just asked "How do you plan on wiring that?" My response, "You plug it in, no wiring or adapters required." It makes me really question how they could have handled multi-million dollar projects for the last 20+ years. They've done at least 7 high schools, at least that if not double middle and elementary schools, colleges and universities... I have to be missing something.
> 
> The band director when I called to ask about the all-male jacks asked me if I ever had problems with the phantom power on XLR jacks. Apparently his jacks along the front of the stage are wired so they share a common ground on pin 1. I never heard of it, but the more I think about it, I'd assume that using the wrong cables to begin with (two conductors no ground maybe) was the issue, then it was haphazardly corrected by jumping from pin to pin on the jacks. Since a fair amount of people don't ever think about anything except a hand-held cardioid, they probably wouldn't notice if there was no +48 on the line. Highly doubtful, but has anyone ever experienced that?


 *@ACTSTech* LOVE your solution. Have little to no problem comprehending your astonishment / disbelief / puzzlement / wonderment.
In the fall of 1973 our "State Of The Art" 2183 seat / dual balconied soft-seater, multi-purpose, variable acoustics , speaker under every second seat, dual full width hydraulic lifts, four castered seating wagons carrying the fixed seating for the first 8 rows (complete with aisle lights and under seat speakers) + 6 or 8 female XLR3's (per lift) installed under load-rated hinged covers along the down stage edges of each of the two lifts ostensibly for use when they were used either as stage extensions to mic' our civic symphony for recording purposes, accommodate lecterns, stand mics, hand mics; all things for all users for ALL purposes.

In the lower level sub-basement below the pits, were two auto-retracting reels intended to pay out and retract mic level cables as each of the two lifts raised, lowered, and stopped at four preset elevations.
Similarly, two more auto-retractors supplied 70 V audio for the four individually delayed rows of under-seat speakers.
Two more for the 120 volt aisle lights and two more to power music stand lights via single, ~20 -24 ungrounded parallel blade, receptacles provided under ~20 0 - 24 load rated covers flush mounted within the lift's surfaces.

Cutting to the chase: All 12 or 16 twisted pairs of ~22 gauge were sheathed within one foil shield with one bare common drain wire.
Neumann KM84's, and other 48 V phantom powered mic's, were included in the specification and provided as part of our initial mic' stock.
The ground loops were . . . uh . . . "interesting" / educating / elucidating.
'nough said.
Think POSITIVE!
Test NEGATIVE!!
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard


----------



## TimMc (Feb 3, 2021)

gafftaper said:


> Both your comment about the snake in the pit and the phantom power have me worried that it sounds like they are talking about old analog gear. Your theater should have a large digital I/O unit in the rack distributing XLR to wall ports AND an ethernet line (preferably lines with a little patch panel) that runs to the stage for a digital snake head. Allowing you to drop a digital snake head anywhere on stage that you want with a single ethernet cable.


I may have missed that the proposed system design has this capability, but generally I like having analog lines installed to difficult-to-cable locations (spot booths, control booths, off stage band/orchestra spaces) so that doors can be closed (security and noise isolation). In today's world I want big, open pipes with no hard bend and installed pull lines for fibre and CAT cables.


----------



## ACTSTech (Feb 3, 2021)

gafftaper said:


> Both your comment about the snake in the pit and the phantom power have me worried that it sounds like they are talking about old analog gear. Your theater should have a large digital I/O unit in the rack distributing XLR to wall ports AND an ethernet line (preferably lines with a little patch panel) that runs to the stage for a digital snake head. Allowing you to drop a digital snake head anywhere on stage that you want with a single ethernet cable.


Yes. unfortunately it's an analog snake at the moment. Due to budget, we're not going to purchase anything beyond "necessities" so new snakes are off the table. However, the analog snake will run to the Allen & Heath AR2412 which is connected to the Qu32 by an ethernet cable. I already have the network switches and lines in the bid, so it will be ready in the future (assuming we have a future) for digital expansion. The problem is when we were conceiving the idea for the renovation, we knew we were going to have to do it shoestring, so all idea was to try to have a 5-year plan in place. Unfortunately, Covid hit and our income for the last year is 0, grant money is 0, and the companies which we had gone through for rights and royalties for the season won't refund anything.

However, money woes aside, this architectural firm still deals with analog. The last high school renovation they did came in so far over budget (which isn't hard to believe with any renovation) that the auditorium lighting system was totally cut. The line array they installed (for a 750 seat high school auditorium) is already out of production and the auditorium hasn't opened yet. Lots of Dante technology with no training and lots of new analog lines since that's what the bigwigs making the decisions understand.

I have no budget in this project to go digital. However, I've tried to prepare by including Cat6 cable everywhere so that when we're ready, we just plug and go.


----------



## ACTSTech (Feb 3, 2021)

TimMc said:


> I may have missed that the proposed system design has this capability, but generally I like having analog lines installed to difficult-to-cable locations (spot booths, control booths, off stage band/orchestra spaces) so that doors can be closed (security and noise isolation). In today's world I want big, open pipes with no hard bend and installed pull lines for fibre and CAT cables.


I don't think I ever even posted the specs or the scope of the project, so you missed a lot on my account.

Basically, long story short, we're trying to retrofit/renovate a 130-year old decommissioned desanctified (which is good for our group for sure) Catholic church and create a community performing arts center. The idea is to take the sanctuary area and create a stage while turning the downstairs fellowship center into a smaller performing area/gathering space. The main issue is the lack of cultural support in the area. The city would just as soon tear it down and put up a strip mall for the newest Dollar General, but they can't jump around the semi-historic designation. Because the arts aren't supported, it's hard to secure state grants, just private ones and those are impossible to come by for a venue that might hold 200 tops. 

The retrofit for this phase is basically getting it up to code and running. While I'd love to buy new, we just can't do it, so I've been tasked with reusing everything we have while looking to the future. I'm here on the forums asking a lot of questions because not only do I not know a lot, it seems that our architect doesn't know much either. As evidenced by the XLR conversation that started this whole thread!


----------



## RonHebbard (Feb 3, 2021)

TimMc said:


> I may have missed that the proposed system design has this capability, but generally I like having analog lines installed to difficult-to-cable locations (spot booths, control booths, off stage band/orchestra spaces) so that doors can be closed (security and noise isolation). In today's world I want big, open pipes with no hard bend and installed pull lines for fibre and CAT cables.


The type (s) of pipe spec'd and installed to transport adult beverages (and sweet / sticky pre-mix + carbonation) from SECURE and refrigerated basement storerooms to lobby bars. The pipes are usually spec'd as EXPENSIVE stainless, rat-tooth resistant, steel, all too often 'value engineered' down to turquoise sewage piping. 
Perhaps *@MNicolai* is familiar and may comment. 
Toodleoo! 
Ron Hebbard


----------



## jakebozz (Feb 3, 2021)

Slightly off-topic, but addresses "standard install:" I was called in to mix sound for a musical at a high school where the main snake running from backstage through a conduit to mix position at the back of the auditorium was installed _backwards_ during construction-- the XLR male pigtails were backstage & the box of female XLRs was at mix position!!! Instead of fixing their mistake, they left it that way and supplied a boat-load of double-female cables backstage and double-male cables for connections to the mixer! I show up 10+ years after this shabby install to find most of the "patch cables" with broken connections, and I needed to come up with a rediculous number of gender-benders of my own to get the job done! So much for "standard!"


----------



## Ben Stiegler (Feb 3, 2021)

ACTSTech said:


> My electrician came back with a proposal to install all the XLR wall jacks as male only. The architect told him that in most of the high school and middle school auditoriums, the first thing that the users complain about is the XLR jacks breaking. Because most of these are female with a spring clip, he recommends that you eliminate that "unnecessary headache" of having to repair a jack and just buy cables with a double female end...
> 
> Has anyone heard of this before? After making a few calls, several auditorium managers/band directors/janitors confirm that's what they've installed. My brain hurts.


that is the dumbest thing I have heard in ... a long, long time. F-F cables are completely inflexible for being daisychained, etc. Better is that the XLR FEMALES go in recessed stage boxes, floor pockets, or recessed wall boxes with a notched-out door to allow cables to pass out. This also eliminates the potential of the connector shell being "bonked" by man, beast, or board.


----------



## Ben Stiegler (Feb 3, 2021)

MNicolai said:


> Huh?
> 
> I've never heard of this being an issue, and certainly what's being proposed is not kosher and is a recipe for disaster. That is going to be a nightmare cabling wise and risks pumping 48VDC phantom power into devices that are absolutely not intended for that and may become damaged as a result. Maybe if someone is using generic XLR connectors and wall plates like you'd find on Amazon or Monoprice, but if your system is being spec'd with Neutrik you should not have any issues.
> 
> ...


Brilliant, Mike!


----------



## Ben Stiegler (Feb 3, 2021)

TimMc said:


> Your electrician should be slapped back to his/her/their trade. You can't "just buy cables with a double female end" at Banjo Depot. You can custom order them at a significant premium, though, and have a non standard installation that will teach students wrong information about audio systems in the process.
> 
> Where do people come up with this shat?


oh oh!! Banjo Depot is where I got the bypass jumpers for my electric meter, too!


----------



## Ben Stiegler (Feb 3, 2021)

TimMc said:


> And if *you* are not permitted to personally fix them (or it's not your job), what should be a 45 minute fix with $15 in parts becomes a $250 service call from a contractor or waiting 4 months for the building engineers to see to it. I understand. 🕶


yet replacing them all at once would be a major win ... could even make a new panel, if you dont want to drill out the rivets. I've ordered panels like this (empty or populated, with nice engraving) many times and always been happy with the result.


----------



## RonHebbard (Feb 3, 2021)

jakebozz said:


> Slightly off-topic, but addresses "standard install:" I was called in to mix sound for a musical at a high school where the main snake running from backstage through a conduit to mix position at the back of the auditorium was installed _backwards_ during construction-- the XLR male pigtails were backstage & the box of female XLRs was at mix position!!! Instead of fixing their mistake, they left it that way and supplied a boat-load of double-female cables backstage and double-male cables for connections to the mixer! I show up 10+ years after this shabby install to find most of the "patch cables" with broken connections, and I needed to come up with a rediculous number of gender-benders of my own to get the job done! So much for "standard!"


 *@jakebozz* Facetiously; perhaps they were years / decades ahead of their time. 
If/when you need to feed a boat load of powered monitors; on stage, back stage, in the pit and /or off-stage band / chorus / vocal booth(s) you're all set/ good to go. 
Toodleoo! 
Ron Hebbard
Think POSITIVE! 
Test *NEGATIVE!! * 
Toodleoo! 
Ron Hebbard


----------



## Geep Howell (Feb 4, 2021)

Many years back, I think using male plugs was, in fact, a standard, as the females when floor mounted tended to get filled with dirt and become inoperable. Even today, one of the theaters I work in had a recent new install done with a switching setup to go from a locally rack mounted board to analog inputs to the amplifiers, and those jacks were male. They now have turnarounds installed (mine) so incoming touring companies won't use bad language...I agree with the other comments that electricians ought to stick to 110 VAC and higher, and leave the audio standards to those who know what they are doing.


----------



## gafftaper (Feb 4, 2021)

Geep Howell said:


> Many years back, I think using male plugs was, in fact, a standard, as the females when floor mounted tended to get filled with dirt and become inoperable.


Isn't that really just a sign of a stage with a lazy technical staff not doing proper maintenance?


----------



## Aaron Becker (Feb 4, 2021)

If the installer is making a stink about the connectors at the wall boxes, is it an option to 1) let them install their garbage and just rip it out after? We can't be talking about more than a few dozen XLRs... $3 a pop x 36 = $108 dollars. Especially if they aren't going to use Neutrik anyways. A few solder joints never hurt anyone. Otherwise 2) tell them to leave the bare wires dangling from the box and you'll finish it yourself? Saves them money and labor, and you get it done correctly.


----------



## macsound (Feb 4, 2021)

Aaron Becker said:


> If the installer is making a stink about the connectors at the wall boxes, is it an option to 1) let them install their garbage and just rip it out after? We can't be talking about more than a few dozen XLRs... $3 a pop x 36 = $108 dollars. Especially if they aren't going to use Neutrik anyways. A few solder joints never hurt anyone. Otherwise 2) tell them to leave the bare wires dangling from the box and you'll finish it yourself? Saves them money and labor, and you get it done correctly.


I second asking them to leave a loop of wire. I've asked this of many electricians over the years who couldn't wrap their head around low voltage anything but were happy to run the cable.


----------



## FMEng (Feb 4, 2021)

macsound said:


> I second asking them to leave a loop of wire. I've asked this of many electricians over the years who couldn't wrap their head around low voltage anything but were happy to run the cable.


Most electrical contractors I have encountered, are happy to do the conduit and cable tray, but like to farm out the low voltage stuff to a sub contractor, who should know better.

I was told, first hand, the story of a college dormitory that was wired for cable TV (CATV) when it was built. This was back in the early 1970s, when CATV was still a pretty new thing in the area. Soon after the building opened, the school's TV engineers started getting reception complaints. They grabbed a field strength meter, and found very low levels in most of the rooms. Further investigation revealed that the electrician spliced one wall jack to the next with.... WIRE NUTS. For some reason, that just didn't work too well.


----------



## macsound (Feb 4, 2021)

Absolutely! 
Some friends and family who've bought newly built homes had contractors who "allowed" the homeowner (or me actually) to come in after hours to run network and speaker wire as long as I wrapped the end of the wire around a big nail (how many pennies? maybe 25₵) so the sheetrock guy could poke it through.


----------



## Aaron Becker (Feb 5, 2021)

macsound said:


> Absolutely!
> Some friends and family who've bought newly built homes had contractors who "allowed" the homeowner (or me actually) to come in after hours to run network and speaker wire as long as I wrapped the end of the wire around a big nail (how many pennies? maybe 25₵) so the sheetrock guy could poke it through.



I've run my own network/CATV in homes.... but I'm not "seeing" what the nail accomplishes? At least in my case (or these peoples, I guess), if it doesn't work, it's on them, not someone else.
and to be fair, home builders charge WAYYYY too much to run CAT(whatever) in a new house. $100+ a room, come on, man.

edit: on the other side of the coin, I do giggle when I hear about custodians or general maintenance staff trying to fix network, audio, video, etc runs and wonder why their experience of watching one YouTube video doesn't yield them professional-level results. 

edit2: moral of the story, unless you're ACTUALLY a professional, you're going to get sub-par results doing it yourself. you get what you pay for. It's no disrespect to janitors, but it's not their job. Also, don't ask me to clean a bathroom, because I don't have the keys to the cleaning supply closet. and I prefer it that way.


----------



## ACTSTech (Feb 5, 2021)

Aaron Becker said:


> I've run my own network/CATV in homes.... but I'm not "seeing" what the nail accomplishes? At least in my case (or these peoples, I guess), if it doesn't work, it's on them, not someone else.
> and to be fair, home builders charge WAYYYY too much to run CAT(whatever) in a new house. $100+ a room, come on, man.
> 
> edit: on the other side of the coin, I do giggle when I hear about custodians or general maintenance staff trying to fix network, audio, video, etc runs and wonder why their experience of watching one YouTube video doesn't yield them professional-level results.
> ...


I was contracted in to a high school many years ago to "fix" their spring musical. They, as a lot of schools do, let the kids do everything, which was great for experience and a disaster in terms of actually getting things to work. I had the tech kids walk me through what the situation was, and after we decoded that the director was a dancer and really had given them no clear direction, we started fixing. The lighting was pretty straightforward, just teaching them how to program the board (Ah, the ease of the old ETC Express 72/144...) since all they knew how to do from her was turn down the grand master, manually adjust the faders to the next scene, then turn the grand master back up...

The sound...

The head custodian was in charge of the sound system and equipment. Only he had a key to unlock the rack, and he insisted that only he could have the key. All the microphones and cables and stands and whatnot HAD to be stored in his closet NIGHTLY. When I went to ask him a few simple questions, he grumbled about how all this stuff gets stolen and broken and kids don't know how to do this and do that and when I assured him I was going to be taking responsibility for everything, he got nastier and refused to give me any of the equipment and threw me out of the office. After revising my quote to add in the cost of renting all the equipment, he called to tell me I could pick up the equipment daily. I revised my quote to add in an additional 4 hours a day to set up and tear down. He called me to tell me I'd be issued a key for the run of the show and I'd be personally held accountable for any broken equipment.

Long story short, none of the equipment had ever been used. Brand new wireless units, hanging mics, PCCs, two 414s, all still brand new after 4 years. The only thing used were three boom stands, three cables, and three handhelds that were Radio Shack brand. He didn't understand any of the equipment and probably didn't want the job of taking care of it, but prided himself on his inventory being perfect every audit.

After the run of the show, there was a well-trained student crew and a very happy school board president who heard his daughter and son clearly through the state of the art system that "never seemed to work" before. Everything was returned (with pictures taken just in case) and locked away. And I was not invited back because I was "difficult" to work with. And since he sets up for everything, he won. And they went back to the three handheld mic setup, and everyone complained, especially the kids, but that's the way life happens.

Believe me, some of my favorite people in the world are the custodians that understand how the building works and all the ins and outs of the place. The majority of them are good people who work hard but sometimes get things dumped on them that they don't understand. This guy wasn't one of those people.

This electrician I'm working with now is a very nice guy, very knowledgeable in his craft, talked me through the pros and cons of the major rewiring and pointed out some things with a new panel I hadn't thought of. I don't think he's a bad electrician, but I think that he's not knowledgeable in the theater world, and he's probably following a template that was set out by the architect, who probably knows his craft in general terms but not in specific terms. I still have my union card, so I'd be happy to labor and do work since it will be a building I'll be working in. I just get scared when I see what's on the paper as well as what's been done elsewhere and accepted as standard.


----------



## RonHebbard (Feb 5, 2021)

ACTSTech said:


> I was contracted in to a high school many years ago to "fix" their spring musical. They, as a lot of schools do, let the kids do everything, which was great for experience and a disaster in terms of actually getting things to work. I had the tech kids walk me through what the situation was, and after we decoded that the director was a dancer and really had given them no clear direction, we started fixing. The lighting was pretty straightforward, just teaching them how to program the board (Ah, the ease of the old ETC Express 72/144...) since all they knew how to do from her was turn down the grand master, manually adjust the faders to the next scene, then turn the grand master back up...
> 
> The sound...
> 
> ...


 *@ACTSTech* LOVED, and fully agreed with, your post. Your comments referencing architects and contractors / General Contractors who aren't exactly up to date / familiar with / fully conversant in theatres caught my eye, piqued my interest, and left me snickering, 

I'll leave you with a precise quote from a nation wide contracting company's Site Supervisor / Chief In Charge of a major (100 million +) project; granted this was said unofficially while sitting around consuming liquid refreshments with his sub foremen at day's end:

"The actual auditorium's easy, it's a large empty hole in the middle. All those walls, stairs, four balconies, three basement levels below grade and eleven stories above, those are the toughies." 

When the boss departed, the electrical and plumbing foremen chuckled and the LX foreman said: 
"Just because he's built so many high-rise condo's with one basement, one roof, and 30 or 40 identical floors in between he thinks he's hot excrement. I wonder how many airports and theatres he's built?" 
Laughter erupted and the 8 or 10 of us went right on consuming.

Toodleoo! 
Ron Hebbard


----------



## ACTSTech (Feb 5, 2021)

RonHebbard said:


> *@ACTSTech* LOVED, and fully agreed with, your post. Your comments referencing architects and contractors / General Contractors who aren't exactly up to date / familiar with / fully conversant in theatres caught my eye, piqued my interest, and left me snickering,
> 
> I'll leave you with a precise quote from a nation wide contracting company's Site Supervisor / Chief In Charge of a major (100 million +) project; granted this was said unofficially while sitting around consuming liquid refreshments with his sub foremen at day's end:
> 
> ...


There's one of my pet peeves, those who know and those who KNOW. I know nothing, I admit that, so I ask questions. When someone asks me, I'll give them my knowledge, but I usually will say, "What I would do is... but I'm not an expert." On where I want microphone inputs, I'm kind of the expert on this project. If the electrician really doesn't know, I'd have a lot more respect if he said, "I'm really not that familiar with this..." or "I don't know what this is, could you explain..." 

I'll give him credit on the DMX. I asked for Cat6A to be run rather than DMX wire. He crossed off the Cat6A and had 2-pr+drain written in, so I said that Cat6 is what I wanted. When he asked why, I said if we upgrade and move to ArtNET or sACN or something that's networked, I want the lines in place already. I can wire it for 5-pin now, or buy a DMX-to-RJ-45 adapter now. He looked at me and said no one had ever told him about that, and his young assistant said they'd never done anything with ArtNET before, they just run the wires and the next subcontractor comes in and installs the equipment. After I explained, they understood and agreed, so I'll give them credit there, but I'm sure they were just going off what was proposed and what experience they had.

Sort of like when the director told me he'd really like a waterfall on stage. With real water. That could turn on and off. "You'll make it work" was my guidance, so sort of like the GC's that don't know. I made it work. The only thing I forgot was to warn the pit orchestra that there was a waterfall, as a few minutes into the first rehearsal they all had to go to the bathroom. Didn't think the trickling water sound was that noticeable in the audience, but I forgot about the musicians. Oops.


----------



## macsound (Feb 5, 2021)

Aaron Becker said:


> I've run my own network/CATV in homes.... but I'm not "seeing" what the nail accomplishes? At least in my case (or these peoples, I guess), if it doesn't work, it's on them, not someone else.
> and to be fair, home builders charge WAYYYY too much to run CAT(whatever) in a new house. $100+ a room, come on, man.
> 
> edit: on the other side of the coin, I do giggle when I hear about custodians or general maintenance staff trying to fix network, audio, video, etc runs and wonder why their experience of watching one YouTube video doesn't yield them professional-level results.
> ...


The nail is because that's how the other trades do it. So when the HVAC guy runs the thermostat wire into the hallway he wraps an extra foot or 2 around a 16 penny nail so they rock around it.
I think the nail is just the way tradesemen do it. So if they see something like that, they don't question it.


----------



## macsound (Feb 5, 2021)

ACTSTech said:


> There's one of my pet peeves, those who know and those who KNOW. I know nothing, I admit that, so I ask questions. When someone asks me, I'll give them my knowledge, but I usually will say, "What I would do is... but I'm not an expert." On where I want microphone inputs, I'm kind of the expert on this project. If the electrician really doesn't know, I'd have a lot more respect if he said, "I'm really not that familiar with this..." or "I don't know what this is, could you explain..."
> 
> I'll give him credit on the DMX. I asked for Cat6A to be run rather than DMX wire. He crossed off the Cat6A and had 2-pr+drain written in, so I said that Cat6 is what I wanted. When I asked why, I said if we upgrade and move to ArtNET or sACN or something that's networked, I want the lines in place already. I can wire it for 5-pin now, or buy a DMX-to-RJ-45 adapter now. He looked at me and said no one had ever told him about that, and his young assistant said they'd never done anything with ArtNET before, they just run the wires and the next subcontractor comes in and installs the equipment. After I explained, they understood and agreed, so I'll give them credit there, but I'm sure they were just going off what was proposed and what experience they had.
> 
> Sort of like when the director told me he'd really like a waterfall on stage. With real water. That could turn on and off. "You'll make it work" was my guidance, so sort of like the GC's that don't know. I made it work. The only thing I forgot was to warn the pit orchestra that there was a waterfall, as a few minutes into the first rehearsal they all had to go to the bathroom. Didn't think the trickling water sound was that noticeable in the audience, but I forgot about the musicians. Oops.


Yes, it is sometimes nice when the pros have an opinion when they actually know better.

A story I heard from a very popular Apple podcast about a guy getting his very expensive house built in NY. He told the electrician he wanted cat7 run everywhere.
Now, less than a year later, he's having major issues. Why? 
1. CAT7 was never made a standard like CAT6A or 5e, so it doesnt technically conform to ethernet standards
2. Because it doesn't adhere to those standards it has a super weird connector that is really fiddly to install and can break easily

If the electrician asked why he wanted Cat7 and provided an argument for cat6a instead, this new home might have working networking.

On the other side of the coin, if the electrician told him he preferred fiber optic cable instead of ethernet, the homeowner should have pushed back asking for the "standard"


----------



## ACTSTech (Feb 5, 2021)

macsound said:


> On the other side of the coin, if the electrician told him he preferred fiber optic cable instead of ethernet, the homeowner should have pushed back asking for the "standard"


Sort of the HD-DVD vs Blu-Ray, or Betamax vs VHS right?

I already had a few people contact me and tell me that network cable is the way to go, and I also had a few people contact me and tell me that I'll get a lot of noise on the network cable if the unused wires aren't terminated, so I guess it's the risk I'm taking. I just feel like in a total retrofit where I can't punch holes in a historic structure, I want the cabling done once and hopefully it's good until I die or retire (death is probably closer, especially when I'm the one up on ladders playing with electric) and if I made the mistake, people can blame me. Last big project I was in on, we all pushed for Cat5 cable for everything, which was fine for 2000, but now they are complaining about slow speeds over the old cable. We weren't worried back then, we were hoping to future proof the number of phone lines we would need for all of our dial-up needs... Wireless? Impossible. Cell phone? Yes, it's a small brick with 50 minutes a month which no one would ever go over...

In 20 years, if this place is still running, the tech then can replace all the Cat6 with Cat2K hyperloop wireless virtually but I won't necessarily care.


----------



## BS&L (Feb 10, 2021)

ACTSTech said:


> My electrician came back with a proposal to install all the XLR wall jacks as male only. The architect told him that in most of the high school and middle school auditoriums, the first thing that the users complain about is the XLR jacks breaking. Because most of these are female with a spring clip, he recommends that you eliminate that "unnecessary headache" of having to repair a jack and just buy cables with a double female end...
> 
> Has anyone heard of this before? After making a few calls, several auditorium managers/band directors/janitors confirm that's what they've installed. My brain hurts.



This is true and I've seen it multiple times here in Australia. Many schools with old performing arts buildings or an outdoor 'stage' have these. I've seen them on the front wall of the stage facing the audience and the other end usually Up stage center on the wall. I have no idea why, but after reading this discussion I can sort-of understand why?
And sometimes I will find a Female to Female xlr cable that looks straight from the 90's somewhere in a storeroom.


----------

