# Kabuki Drop - dangerous?



## Charc (Dec 22, 2007)

DMX-512 USITT Draft 1991 (or something like that, I can't remember) stated that this data protocol was not to be used for anything potentially life threatening. So, MIDI became the protocol of choice for rigging/automation, correct?

However, a kabuki drop doesn't count as rigging/automation? Anyone else seen that DMX-512 kabuki drop? Seems cool to me.

I'd be happy if everything was run on DMX.  want some coffee made? No problem, channel 50. Want to turn the heat up? Sure, channel 56. Want to warmup the engine of your car? No problem, channel 67.

(I'm getting carried away, so back on top...)


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## derekleffew (Dec 22, 2007)

Link? to the DMX Kabuki Drop? Dropping 20 pounds of china silk, (or for Van, tricot) spread out across 40'-60' isn't particularly dangerous, but accidental triggers can and do (seldom) happen with any automated system.

The problem with using DMX-512A (or any variant) is its inherent lack of error-checking. The receiving device is "dumb" and will do whatever it is told. There's a thread on "the other board" right now about whether or not adding a "deadman switch" is an appropriate safety device. All quality dangerous devices that use DMX or Midi, or MSC, will include a PLC to monitor for safety, often including a deadman, and only if all safety devices are secure, will execute what the DMX or other external trigger tells it to do.

As far as controlling everything with DMX, check out this, this, and that. Whether or not ACN is appropriate for controlling dangerous devices has yet to be addressed, as far as I know (or can remember).


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## gafftaper (Dec 22, 2007)

A good question for Steve Terry... has there been any discussion of ACN and triggering "dangerous" systems? Just sent him a PM to make sure he sees this thread.


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## STEVETERRY (Dec 22, 2007)

gafftaper said:


> A good question for Steve Terry... has there been any discussion of ACN and triggering "dangerous" systems? Just sent him a PM to make sure he sees this thread.




Since ACN is an Inherently reliable protocol with guaranteed message delivery, there is no such prohibition.

However, the wise system designer will always insert a final interlock, such as a dead-man switch, between the automated execution and the actual execution.

ST


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## Charc (Dec 22, 2007)

I guess I didn't mean dangerous, but being in the realm of rigging, I thought it inherently shouldn't run on DMX. However, I though the USITT draft stated that DMX was only prohibited from dangerous situations, not rigging applications.

Link? I think it has bee advertised in LD, multiple times. I can check an issue down in my room later.


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## Footer (Dec 22, 2007)

I personally just don't like automation running directly off of a lighting console. Running off a separate unit that is cued by the lighting console and has a second operator... fine... but not direct. It makes cueing a pain and its to easy to jump a cue.


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## SteveB (Dec 22, 2007)

STEVETERRY said:


> Since ACN is an Inherently reliable protocol with guaranteed message delivery, there is no such prohibition.
> However, the wise system designer will always insert a final interlock, such as a dead-man switch, between the automated execution and the actual execution.
> ST



I can just hear it on the headset. 

"Roll On One".

SB


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## SteveB (Dec 22, 2007)

Footer4321 said:


> I personally just don't like automation running directly off of a lighting console. Running off a separate unit that is cued by the lighting console and has a second operator... fine... but not direct. It makes cueing a pain and its to easy to jump a cue.



There's been an interesting - and very long as is typical, thread on the stagecraft list about powered rigging systems and automated controls for such. 

One pointed comment that came up with the Vertek system was the difficulty in skipping cues, a common occurrence and readily do-able in lighting and audio systems. Seems the Vortek controls, and others as I was led to believe, have some issues as to how best to accomplish the task desired and called for and are seemingly not as far along in the process as related lighting systems. In general, powered systems are not as well thought of umong the list members, for any number of reasons, though admittedly, many of the list members are old and set in their ways.

SB


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## Charc (Dec 22, 2007)

SteveB said:


> I can just hear it on the headset.
> "Roll On One".
> SB



I'm sure that's a joke, but I don't get it!

Care to explain, anyone?


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## jonhirsh (Dec 23, 2007)

Watch the movie _the Green Mile_

JH


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## Charc (Dec 23, 2007)

jonhirsh said:


> Watch the movie _the Green Mile_
> JH



Now that you mention it, it sounds familiar, but I think the movie was "Roll on two".


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## jonhirsh (Dec 23, 2007)

You have to roll on one, before you can roll on two?


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## Charc (Dec 23, 2007)

jonhirsh said:


> You have to roll on one, before you can roll on two?



Given that you phrase that as a question...

I have no idea.


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## jonhirsh (Dec 23, 2007)

I feel it was more rhetorical then anything. 
JH


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## len (Dec 23, 2007)

Drops shouldn't be dmx, but like a lot of things, there is what should be, and there is what is. Like 3 pin cable for dmx lines. Like sending dmx down the sound snake. And like triggering a reveal through a dmx tree dimmer set to relay (did that for a 6 week tour).


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## SteveB (Dec 23, 2007)

charcoaldabs said:


> Now that you mention it, it sounds familiar, but I think the movie was "Roll on two".



Roll On One activated the generators to provide power to the system.

Roll On Two sent the power to the chair.

The Green Mile was (IMO) one of the better Stephen King books.

SB


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## len (Dec 24, 2007)

jonhirsh said:


> You have to roll on one, before you can roll on two?



Minister of Finance: I insist we take up the tax!

Rufus T. Firefly: I insist we take up the carpet.

Minister of Finance: I still insist we must take up the tax.

Rufus T. Firefly: He's right. You've got to take up the tax before you take up the carpet.


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## Logos (Dec 25, 2007)

And what about the sanity clause.

Everyone knows there ain't no sanity clause.


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## len (Dec 25, 2007)

You can't come in without the password. I'll give you a hint. It's the name of a fish.

Is it Mary?

That's no fish.

No, but she drinks like one.


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## jonhirsh (Dec 25, 2007)

_A fish named wanda_

Is my guess. 
JH


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## Logos (Dec 25, 2007)

Don't leave in a huff, leave in a minute and a huff. Better still leave in a taxi.

A fish called Wanda isn't even the right decade.


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## jonhirsh (Dec 26, 2007)

Hmmm well i tried. 

wait is it _Duck Soup_
JH


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## Logos (Dec 26, 2007)

Very close 

The taxes and the carpet are Duck Soup

The Sanity Clause is I think "A Night at The Opera"?

The Fish password and the Leaving in a huff are Horse Feathers the college one


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## len (Dec 26, 2007)

Logos said:


> Don't leave in a huff, leave in a minute and a huff. Better still leave in a taxi.
> A fish called Wanda isn't even the right decade.



If you run out of gas get Ethyl. If Ethyl runs out get Mabel. 



And Logos is correct about those movies. 

Ethyl was a premium type gas back in the 20's and 30's. I remember seeing it in the 1960's.


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## jonhirsh (Dec 26, 2007)

Well at-least i tried. I failed but i tried  

Guess i better start watching some Groucho again.
JH


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## Logos (Dec 26, 2007)

len said:


> If you run out of gas get Ethyl. If Ethyl runs out get Mabel.
> And Logos is correct about those movies.
> Ethyl was a premium type gas back in the 20's and 30's. I remember seeing it in the 1960's.



Alice Cooper recorded a rather unpleasant song called "Cold Ethyl" in the 60's.

I think that may have had more to do with Ethyl Alcohol.


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## derekleffew (Dec 26, 2007)

See what you started, Charcoaldabs. Okay, everyone, take it to "off-topic."


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## gafftapegreenia (Dec 27, 2007)

But, wasn't this in off-topic?


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## Charc (Dec 27, 2007)

It was in-fact posted in off-topic... weird. I hadn't noticed that. (Ever since I learned the magic of the "New Posts" button, I haven't gone into a single forum yet.)


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## derekleffew (Dec 27, 2007)

Charc posted it originally in "off topic" but I moved it to "Scenery" as it was in the beginning a valuable thread. 

I too, use "new posts" and sometimes don't pay attention to the forum, hence my famous faux pas of instructing a new member to post in the "New members area" when that's where we were. Boy was my face red.


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## ship (Dec 28, 2007)

Where I work has had a DMX Kabuki controller in use for at least ten years now without any major problems. It was home built by our head of electronics repair and networking. He wrote software, designed the circuit boards and fabricated the item which is perhaps unique in the industry.

That said, there is only one of them as opposed to about like ten or more of them that are manually operated both rack mount and as a individual controller I have built over the years. The DMX Kabuki controller does not get used as much as the other controllers for that option. Don’t know why beyond already limited DMX channels available on most shows, I don’t do shows. Good controller from what I know of it however (separate department to maintain it from mine.) Six channels of control and rack mounted. Often I expect those with the choice of using it verses just installing relay switches into the dimmer pack instead of dimmers is the easier option for many shows.

This than gets us into the concept of DMX control of one’s Kabuki verses the personal touch. I’m against a DMX control of the Kabuki for the most part, but it than gets us into what style of Kabuki as a very broad term is under control by the controller.

Also and of upmost importance is what Kabuki system one is using as there is many ways to drop scenery or a drape. Could be as simple as a sort of roll drop mechanism that spins a pipe with bolts sticking out of it that support the drape and in rolling release it, to elecro magnet type individual or even ganged blocks of selenoids, to even a electro magnet that in normally on position holds a flexible magnetic strip attached to the drape in attachment while the power is on. This amongst other concepts in how to drop a drape.

Where I work in a system developed before I got there, and only improved upon for safety and ease of rigging in my supervision, it uses solenoids that are electro magnets that when power is applied to them snap the plunger into the magnet and release the drape. This is a similar system to what ILC uses though they have their own style of doing the same thing. Literally over a hundred of these things in use and often a question of just how many solenoids can be used per circuit and how to wire them so as not to suffer from voltage drop while in use. Whole ways of doing these individual solenoid systems that are based upon a maximum of like 18 per circuit and needing to based upon a 14/3 wire feeding them, branch out and distribute the power supply, much less up the wire gauge for longer runs. Very hard to do and inside the solenoid 18# cable ties if not plastic shower curtain rings are used as the catch/release attachment within them so that if one solenoid fails, a stage hand can quickly pull loose the stuck part of the drape if it does not fail under its own weight.

On the roll drop type mechanism, got one or two of them in stock but they are not used much - takes more room inside the truss to extend a pipe. Don’t remember how it was operated but I’m sure it would be much more quiet than the classic snap of thirty or more solenoids going off at once. Not a good thing during a silent moment when drawing attention is not the idea.

Electromagnetic strips and other methods I have not experimented with much but its possible under the broad guidelines of Kabuki system. This given a electromagnetic strip would probably work best with shorter lengths such as banners, but they would also be more silent.

DMX draft does not as far as I remember cover such as a Kabuki drop system that does not support what would not injure if it failed. On the other hand for the type of system I am most familiar with, having DMX control over your system is prone to mechanical failure - this especially if written into a cue.

Those solenoids towards the rear of the system if the wire gauge is barley able to manage the amperage will react slower than those near the front of the chain of them. Have a cue recorded to allow and compensate for all going off and some excess will tend to burn out the ones first going off and remaining in the sucking position. Bad day for a solenoid when left on too long - it tends to melt down internally in the plastic insulators now preventing the socket to retract most often. On the other hand if of cue, this no matter if DMX controller or not designed to do it but relay pack, leave it on too short in time and you now have a few that might not go off sufficiently long especially given voltage drop (also more heat) in not dropping the ring - but trying very hard to still. 

Even with a manual controller I still at times need to slap people upside the head either testing the system or using the system upside the head in reminding them about both leaving them on too long and or testing the system too frequently and burning the solenoids up. (Not a cheap replacement part and one that only needs to be replaced after abuse.) 

So anyway with time, more and more of these solenoids at like 1.75A each were installed into shows with larger and larger scenery or drape used. Our manual controllers based upon 10A switches began to burn up so I started to install relay switches into the controller. Than on a multi-circuit controller I noted that at times at random this controller once powered up would release all circuits under control - powered up or not at random once given power. That’s a bad thing for a Kabuki system and wold tend to piss off the stage hands that just hung the drape. Turns out there is more than one type of relay switch, and some don’t play nice with momentary contact type stuff. Had to have one of my assistants totally re-wire a six banger I had just finished wiring due to this at one point. Such relay switches work okay (within in doubt) for singer banger type use but don’t for multi circuit. Whole new concept for me now in getting into electronics and the other department I don’t do if I can help it.

Still general concept is splitting up the load and majorly considering voltage drop for the individual solenoids, than beyond that a trained personal momentary contact control of what is to drop over that of a timed cue that does not allow for resistance, voltage drop etc. Even if some say hot button on the DMX control, you still have a lot of stuff that could go wrong added to what can already go wrong. 

Not about talent safety as most Kabuki systems only drop a drape, more about control in a real hands on means in my opinion. This much like a hoist controller is Kabuki drop systems. Separate system is while not as sleek, more sensible in my opinion.

Side line... a few years back my boss had me prep a bunch of Kabuki solenoids for a rental to a local lighting company. Got them all working within spec and away they went. Next morning both of us just happened to turn on the news before going to work and found out that Sue the Dinosaur was being revealed to the public in one public special before our early morning news viewing eyes. The count down... ten, nine, eight.... etc. Both of us in our own homes instantly realized what this rental of our gear was for and started biting our finger nails. Not about the news item, more about would this system of a lot of solenoids (between 30 and 60 of them) in one circuit work properly on live TV? Just a push of the button for most viewing, we knew that so many at once was problematic in a big way. Later we found out how problematic - apparently this rental company (I once worked for) spent the entire night in geting the solenoids properly circuited so they would dependably work due to both voltage drop and other related circuiting issues - this at the risk of burning them up beyond that... Another factor in them staying up all night in trobleshooting this high profile drop would be in wearing out the solenoids. Screw it it's rental would not apply if the end result didn't work out on live TV. In addition to having to figure out how to use such a system in such a large extent, they now had to be really careful not to burn them out as that's all they got for rental package.

3, 2, 1 and down the drape went. My boss and I it would be expected both in getting to work a few minutes late I expect both jumped for joy, not about the reveal but that our gear worked in revealing it. After that we did do some voltage readings etc. and start up a standard for how many on one circuit, much less proper wiring diagram. The 14/3 twist lock cable feeding the system was our really old general lighting cable that once was the general lighting cable thus like 20 years old and in it’s last attempted use before becoming trashed. Since than we also took a bit more pride into even this cable as to condition and operation. 

Solenoid based Kabuki system... nope DMX is not optimum in my own experience. Less from a sense that it could fail, more from the lack of direct control. Perhaps more forgiving in a roll drop type motor controlled system some error code or over extending the cue to the detrement of the belt or motor driving the drop, but for something that in theory is instant dropping, some potential cue written is far too tempting for a crew chief to use which might work for the first show but be really costly the second time if not tenth time such a system was used.

Go to Myth Busters... see all the times instead of a switch they just plug (hot patch) their system into an Edison receptacle. For them it is fine in only taking a few takes of the experiment, in reality, hot patching or things that don't allow direct control by way of circuitry is destructive to what one is controlling.


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## ship (Dec 28, 2007)

derekleffew said:


> Link? to the DMX Kabuki Drop? Dropping 20 pounds of china silk, (or for Van, tricot) spread out across 40'-60' isn't particularly dangerous, but accidental triggers can and do (seldom) happen with any automated system.
> The problem with using DMX-512A (or any variant) is its inherent lack of error-checking. The receiving device is "dumb" and will do whatever it is told. There's a thread on "the other board" right now about whether or not adding a "deadman switch" is an appropriate safety device.
> 
> > Deadman switch systems / E-Stop systems.. pain in the rear to manufacture. Not sure if they would work for such a drop concept. Reminds me... In addition to one more Kabuki controller of this years version, I also have a duplicate E-Stop to make for a hoist control system... one of these days I'll get around to making. This hopefully later than sooner dependant upon demand.


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## SAWYeR (Dec 28, 2007)

In other news, I think Doug Fleenor Design makes a DMX controlled coffee maker. It runs off the time code function on a console.


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## derekleffew (Dec 28, 2007)

Partially correct, SAWYeR. The product to which you are referring is here. The console does not need SMPTE time-code, but if cues can be triggered via an internal real-time clock, that is handy.


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## Charc (Dec 28, 2007)

Wow... I might have actually seen that in-use onstage. Then again, these particular actors may have just made their own coffee.


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## derekleffew (Dec 28, 2007)

charcoaldabs said:


> Wow... I might have actually seen that in-use onstage. Then again, these particular actors may have just made their own coffee.


I'm sure Van, among others, will agree with me on this: ​ "Trusting an actor to make coffee is like trusting Charcoaldabs to wire something."

<Don't fall off your chair again, Van. Or we're gonna haff ta call in OSHA!>​


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## avkid (Dec 28, 2007)

derekleffew said:


> <Don't fall off your chair again, Van. Or we're gonna haff ta call in OSHA!>​[/CENTER]


Maybe we should we get him one of these in adult size.


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## derekleffew (Dec 28, 2007)

I believe he already has a similar garment, with nice long sleeves that tie in the back!


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