# Replacing borders with no fullness?



## WFair (Dec 13, 2019)

It has come time to replace all our drapery (FINALLY!) and I am starting to put together specs for the project. While I have a variety of questions regarding weight, lining, etc my main question for this thread is about my borders/teasers/valance...whatever you choose to call the 8-ft tall x 50-ft wide strips of fabric that hang across the top of my stage to mask the lights/curtain tracks.

Traditionally everyone seems to (as far as I can tell) specify these with a fairly high "fullness"...meaning that a 50-ft wide curtain might actually contain 100-ft of fabric, sewn with pleats to provide even/consistent fullness. My question is WHY? Space above the stage is always at a premium...and all this added fullness pushes curtains closer to lights/tracks/flown scenery/etc. Also, wouldn't it look cleaner to have nice straight (pipe pocket) lines surrounding the stage rather than the wavy curtain? PLUS...I assume that even though I would have to get them lined probably (to prevent any light spilling through), it is probably still cheaper than all the extra fabric used in the fullness? So win + win + win...no?

So...I plan to keep my grand valence (the one out front) with fullness to match the grand drape...but I feel the pull to go flat on the others but "popular convention" is fighting me. Not seen it done much. There must be a reason? Let's hear your best arguments pro/con. Thanks!


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## Robert (Dec 13, 2019)

Buy it flat if you want, but longer. If fullness is need, add it when you tie it on. If you do not need fullness, just tie it flat and fold it back flat.


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## WFair (Dec 13, 2019)

Robert said:


> Buy it flat if you want, but longer. If fullness is need, add it when you tie it on. If you do not need fullness, just tie it flat and fold it back flat.


Ok...but when is "fullness needed"?...That is the part I am struggling with. Why does anyone specify fullness on a border?


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## derekleffew (Dec 13, 2019)

WFair said:


> Why does anyone specify fullness on a border?


I think you answered your own question before asking it...

WFair said:


> So...I plan to keep my grand valence (the one out front) with fullness to match the grand drape...


To some, a flat border (without pleats, not darts), would look odd against legs with fullness. If all your legs are flatsewn, no problem.


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## Colin (Dec 13, 2019)

If you want them to stay out of the way visually and physically, then no fullness. If you want them to be a feature, then yes fullness. Fullness assures that light spilling from any angle may do what light does and reveal the form. Flat means spill from most angles will glance off or get buried in the nap, and when it doesn't then you at least don't have the eye-catching pattern of the pleats. I typically treat borders as a utility item and want them to disappear as much and as _cheaply_ as possible. That's the other thing: flat sewn = less fabric = less money. Or yes, order flat with extra width to tie in 50% fullness when wanted. I just personally have never wanted, and folding the extra back at the pipe ends can become an obstruction to pipe end lighting depending on your spacing.

I wouldn't say fullness is a "popular convention". I've actually only seen it in the school spaces I've worked in where it got sold to them because they didn't have an opinion. Everywhere else I see a lot of flat sewn unless the goods are "made to be seen" in some classy joint with gilding and such.


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## RonHebbard (Dec 13, 2019)

WFair said:


> It has come time to replace all our drapery (FINALLY!) and I am starting to put together specs for the project. While I have a variety of questions regarding weight, lining, etc my main question for this thread is about my borders/teasers/valance...whatever you choose to call the 8-ft tall x 50-ft wide strips of fabric that hang across the top of my stage to mask the lights/curtain tracks.
> 
> Traditionally everyone seems to (as far as I can tell) specify these with a fairly high "fullness"...meaning that a 50-ft wide curtain might actually contain 100-ft of fabric, sewn with pleats to provide even/consistent fullness. My question is WHY? Space above the stage is always at a premium...and all this added fullness pushes curtains closer to lights/tracks/flown scenery/etc. Also, wouldn't it look cleaner to have nice straight (pipe pocket) lines surrounding the stage rather than the wavy curtain? PLUS...I assume that even though I would have to get them lined probably (to prevent any light spilling through), it is probably still cheaper than all the extra fabric used in the fullness? So win + win + win...no?
> 
> So...I plan to keep my grand valence (the one out front) with fullness to match the grand drape...but I feel the pull to go flat on the others but "popular convention" is fighting me. Not seen it done much. There must be a reason? Let's hear your best arguments pro/con. Thanks!


* @WFair * We've beat this to death at least once in the past year.

My (not so humble) quick recap: 
*Borders:* 
Vertical height, assuming counterbalanced system pipes; order somewhat taller than thought with future sets and sight lines in mind. 
Horizontal width, order full extent of system pipes plus a few feet to turn back flat on the ends for the days when you need to add a few extra feet of pipe for that unforeseen, special, set that a designer / director can't possibly exist without.

*Pipe pockets in bottom edges: * Slit and *reinforced* on U/S side at centre to better facilitate insertion of 40 to 50' lineal feet of 1/2" Schedule 40 threaded iron pipe stored in 10' to 22' lengths, dependent upon what lengths are conveniently / affordably available and storable to you in your area. 

Size pipe pockets to EASILY accommodate / insert 1/2" schedule 40 threaded pipes *WITH their threaded couplings.* 

*Top edges*: Neatly hemmed and sewn flat with canvas / burlap reinforcement all across the U/S top edge. 
Grommets installed every 4 to 6 inches. 
Matte black grommets in preference to any glistening finishes. 
A grommet on the MARKED centre line. 
Centre line indelibly marked on the U/S side. 
Ties provided. 
Different color tie at centre. 
Physically flat, matte black, cotton twill tape ties OR matte black round ties to your preference. 
(Que endless debate between twill or round ties) 
[Cue secondary debate over length of ties]
[[ Cue tertiary debates on any / ALL of the above]]
DON'T FORGET intrinsically fire retardant fabrics. 
DON'T FORGET knap / nap up if utilizing velour fabrics. 
DON'T FORGET to line if / as desired / required. 

STAND BY CURMUDGEONS! 
CURMUDGEONS GO! 
Toodleoo! 
Ron Hebbard


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## MarshallPope (Dec 14, 2019)

In my opinion, the only reason to buy soft goods with fullness is if you have permanently hung midstage/upstage black travelers that are intended to act as legs when open. In that case, it just looks odd to have everything flat except for one or two sets of legs. In almost all other cases, I (and the *vast* majority of designers I've worked with) prefer flat.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Dec 14, 2019)

I specify mostly sewn flat for masking curtains, legs and borders. Along with that, nap up. Much blacker.

When I do have fullness, it's just 50% additional fabric.


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## RickR (Dec 14, 2019)

Too my eyes flat masking isn't as black.


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## RonHebbard (Dec 14, 2019)

RickR said:


> Too my eyes flat masking isn't as black.


 @*RickR* 
Flat as in Commando cloth Vs. Velour ? 
OR 
Flat Vs. Pleated?? 
Toodleoo! 
Ron Hebbard


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## BillESC (Dec 14, 2019)

A recent install for me. The curtains were ruined due to a water leak which also required the stage floor to be replaced.


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## RickR (Dec 15, 2019)

RonHebbard said:


> @*RickR*
> Flat as in Commando cloth Vs. Velour ?
> OR
> Flat Vs. Pleated??
> ...



Flat sewn and occasionally framed, of the same fabric. Take some flat drapes and tie them with fullness to do a side by side. Happens frequently in a local house, but not my call.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Dec 15, 2019)

Well, the ideal is as has been mentioned - sewn flat but 50% wider so you can tie in fullness. With legs, just 50% wider. I have done borders in three pieces - use 2 with overlap or three with tied in fullness. And have grommets installed at 4 and 8 inch centers to make tiring in fullness uniformly easy.


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## Footer (Dec 15, 2019)

I hate anything with fullness. Makes it look like a middle school auditorium. Buy borders flat with a pipe pocket 5' taller then you need. Buy legs with chain 10' longer then you need and tie them back. Only thing with fullness is the main rag.


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## BillESC (Dec 15, 2019)

Replacement work. 

I met George of Rose Brand when he worked at Art Craft Studio almost 40 years ago, good friend.


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## Van (Dec 16, 2019)

Personally, I prefer Flat goods so I can tie in fullness if necessary. MOST of the schools we do have 50% fullness spec'd so that is definitely the majority of what we produce. 
I'm my opinion Flats good have more flat surface and as a result tend to reflect more light. The, perceived, scalloped bottom of fullness helps the borders blend into each other and thus better disappear. 
As far as lining goes, if it's a border for masking in front of an electric I would suggest lining. If it's just in front of utility battens then no lining is required. Honestly 95% of all the curtains we manufacture are unlined. Nap Up Nap Down is ALWAYS a huge question. Bill stated that he prefers Nap up for the added darkness. I prefer Nap down for the long-term 'health' of the curtain. They tend to not capture as much dirt when the nap is down. Also, they are easier to brush and get the nap to sit down properly when the nap is down, but again it's a personal preference and if you get 4 Theatrical consultants in a room and bring up the subject a Fistfight will soon break out... 


Bill probably has a Specification lying around he can post, if not I can dig one up from a job and post it here. they have all the standard language for Hems, Turn-backs, Jute, Grommetting, etc. etc.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Dec 16, 2019)

And while we're covering just about all aspects, related to the flat vs fullness appearance issues, US vs. continental practice of legs us or ds of borders. US is predominantly legs us of borders. I do that when not dead hung and there is not enough height to do 30' tall legs and travelers. I typically end up with 45' or so to top trim and try for a 20' masking trim. With track it means legs and borders are 20'+/- a foot , so need borders to mask track and batten. When I have 70' high trim, I may hang 30' legs ds of borders 

On dead hung, legs downstage of borders, continental practice. That vertical shadow of leg to border blends and disappears better than the horizontal shadow of border on legs.


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## David Ashton (Dec 18, 2019)

Black masking should always be flat, it's object is to disappear, coloured curtains should have fullness, there object is decorative.Many curtain companies suggest black curtain fullness, it increases their profits considerably.


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## Van (Dec 18, 2019)

David Ashton said:


> ...Many curtain companies suggest black curtain fullness, it increases their profits considerably.



Got news for ya Mate, it doesn't.
A flat curtain takes a 1/4 of the time to produce than a 50% full curtain. Labor, as always, is the most expensive line item on any job. Most flat curtains that are supplied are made 50% longer to accommodate tying in fullness so there is no cost savings on material.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Dec 18, 2019)

Van said:


> Bill stated that he prefers Nap up for the added darkness. I prefer Nap down for the long-term 'health' of the curtain


It's a choice. Hold to pieces of black velour - one nap up and one nap down - in a spot light. Or grab a bottom of a leg and hold it up so nap is opposite - what I do when I show up for a check out and the curtains are sewn wrong - and let the owner decide. The nap down usually looks gray compared to the nap up looking black. More maintenance for sure. I know the university and professional theatres where I have worked thought it well worth it. Whether more than a select few high schools would appreciate it, I can't be sure.


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## Ted jones (Dec 18, 2019)

My preference is to have drapes with fullness. I like the look and it softens the edges of the picture frame you are showing your story in. That said, everyone has their looks they like. Send me a note if you would like some pricing.

BTW- if you use 20 or 25 OZ IFR velour, you should not need lining. The quick and dirty is that flat is cheaper finished height and width being the same. 20 OZ is cheaper. We have made a fair amount of drapery with grommets on 6" and 12" centers for people to tie in fullness when they want it. Keep in mind that a drape that is finished 50' wide with 50% fullness takes just as much fabric as drapery that is 75' wide, sewn flat and has grommets 6 and 12" OC to tie in your fullness. Or a 50' and a 27' flat piece to give you the option. Most sewing rooms charge by the width so the 50' wide piece with 50% fullness and the 75' flat piece will be the same or similar price.

Also, I point out that it's nice to have all of the options in the world. Changing from one to the other is time. Most places put their drapery up once and leave it.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Dec 18, 2019)

Van said:


> Got news for ya Mate, it doesn't.
> A flat curtain takes a 1/4 of the time to produce than a 50% full curtain. Labor, as always, is the most expensive line item on any job. Most flat curtains that are supplied are made 50% longer to accommodate tying in fullness so there is no cost savings on material.



Just to be sure I understand, a 10' wide curtain sewn with pleats and 50% additional fabric for fullness will cost more than a 15' wide curtain sewn flat, and presumably with double the number of grommets.

Without the extra grommets, there is a problem if the curtains are on tracks for adjusting trim.

I should compare sewn flat with nap down to fullness with nap up and see which disappears more and looks blacker.


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## Ted jones (Dec 18, 2019)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> Just to be sure I understand, a 10' wide curtain sewn with pleats and 50% additional fabric for fullness will cost more than a 15' wide curtain sewn flat, and presumably with double the number of grommets.
> 
> Without the extra grommets, there is a problem if the curtains are on tracks for adjusting trim.
> 
> I should compare sewn flat with nap down to fullness with nap up and see which disappears more and looks blacker.


Let me know when and how. I'll see if we can make that happen. Just not for the next couple of months.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Dec 18, 2019)

I agree that 24 ounce IFR - like KM Charisma - is fine without lining for bleed through. 20 ounce is close and probably good enough for the venues that select it for the cost savings.


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## Colin (Dec 18, 2019)

The soft look of fullness and lesser total light reflected is a nice idea, but I'm never impressed with it in person. As a visual design element that's trying to disappear, the curtain with fullness has two flaws.

First, there is the pattern of the pleats drawing attention. The fullness may reflect less light, but what light it does reflect is patterned as opposed to the more neutral plane of flat sewn. Under usual conditions we're not talking about a ton of reflected light here. The lines from the pleats can easily become the dominant visual element rather than sheer brightness.

Second and related, in common application there may be a cyc or other lighter/lit backdrop that gets framed on its top edge by a border. In less than ideal conditions it may be lit from downstage and above that border such that shadows are created. The shadows may be multi-colored from multi-cell color mixing fixtures. Regardless, the fullness is far from a neutral soft edge. It asserts itself in ways that may not be desirable, unless the goal is to show everyone your curtains, and all the discrete gel colors spilling from nearby like the selvage of your favorite print.

So again, it is a matter of preference but I'd advise that unless you want to draw attention to the goods and what's nearby, flat is more likely to be more successful. Masking shouldn't have interesting detail. Decorative curtains are a different story of course.


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## macsound (Dec 18, 2019)

Something I think wasn't mentioned here is scenery bumpers on electrics when you hang something oddly shaped and have to page the border out of the way. 
This was always more common in theatres that are deadhung with borders directly downstage of the electric. With everything hung straight, there's no issue but adding a moving light or practical effect that needs space between the border means without fullness, it's incredibly obvious it's not flat. 
I'm always a proponent of 50% fullness borders because they might be seen in one show and not in the next. You never know. 

The only place I've seen flat borders is schools. And they're usually cheap lining, not even velour. And boy do they look cheap. Also they have legs that stop 6" from the deck to prevent rips.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Dec 18, 2019)

Well, some prefer framed masking. Build a flat frame, bevel the edges at 45 degrees so it's literally a knife edge, stretch velour taut. Looks great. Can injure dancers - like pipes in bottom of legs. Add steel for tall ones.


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## Darin (Dec 18, 2019)

IMO, as soon as you add fullness to drapes, they become scenery. Personally, I want masking to visually disappear, not become part of the stage picture.


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## RickR (Dec 18, 2019)

Darin said:


> IMO, as soon as you add fullness to drapes, they become scenery. Personally, I want masking to visually disappear, not become part of the stage picture.


You bring in an interesting distinction. Given that few facilities can afford 2 sets, a choice must be made. 

For me minor masking hardly matters, as long as the rest of the show is OK.  I go for a better look when it's needed, when most of the stage is drapery, and not worry about the rest. Yes, this is a major factor for smaller, lower level schools.


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## ElGusto (Dec 19, 2019)

in my experience working and touring professionally, flat drapes are by far preferred. I have never had a professional company ask for fullness. It tends to catch light rather than lessen it. It takes up more floor space; if scenery is flying or tracking on and off stage there is more of a chance to run into the legs. The same is true for dancers. Should someone request a good with fullness just tie it closer together.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Dec 19, 2019)

I think the empty or bare stage events - not dance but "acts" and scenes and meetings and speakers - probably do look better with fullness. High school stages seem to be used for those events a lot. 

And lets not forget tieing in fullness with flat goods generally implies a fly system. Not so easy when dead hung and all work off a scaffold or lift - which the high school probably hasn't bought.


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## macsound (Dec 19, 2019)

I think the conversation of "scenery" vs "masking" where the building is multi use is a convoluted conversation. 

In the community/regional/semi-pro theatre that I've worked in, trim heights depends on the set and drops. Are they rented or built for us? Is the lighting designed to be visible? Did the choreographer know the venue measurements before rehearsals started and legs need to be pulled in our out 6' because someone "thought" the stage was X feet wide. 
The space was also used quite often for events strictly because it had alot of seats. Borders were flown and legs tied in as far as possible to make an "intimate" black box. That would've looked rather chinchy if they were flat. 

For much of my career, there were a small handful of actual theatres I worked in and all of the above variables changed with every show. In those cases, their purchased soft goods always had fullness. If someone wanted flat borders, they rented or dealt with it or flew painted beveled flats.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Dec 19, 2019)

macsound said:


> In the community/regional/semi-pro theatre that I've worked in, trim heights depends on the set and drops.


So rigging - right? not dead hung? I'm pretty certain that the majority of stages in the US are in fact dead hung (and also the majority are not " community/regional/semi-pro").


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## macsound (Dec 19, 2019)

This facility was 3 stages with only one having rigging. But there was staff that would adjust trims with a lift based on the program.


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## TimMc (Dec 23, 2019)

In my local PAC we have 4 performance spaces. The primary theater/concert (2200 cap) hall has flat borders and legs. Leg goods are wide enough that we can tie in some fullness (more as we go upstage) but borders were cut for flat hang; 37 manual line sets, 3 motorized electrics. The convention hall stage has flat borders and the same size legs as the concert hall so we can tie in fullness if desired. The small theater (600ish cap) has no fly system but has a grid on motorized winches; the soft goods (except the main rag) are under hung from the grid, and their trim is adjustable over a 3 or 4 ft range. Borders are flat and legs 2 & 3 are actually full stage travelers. The 4th stage has no masking of any kind except for the main rag and teaser.

Almost all the velours are nap-up. Back when the venue was between TDs some goods were purchased without specifying nap orientation. At one point there was some discussion about sending them to a sewing shop and sacrificing 12 - 16 inches of height to re-web and hem them so knap would be up but I don't know what was done. My time with soft goods is usually working strip/restore calls for road shows so I'm mostly tying or folding. And yes, theaters are dirty, dusty places...


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