# Flash Paper



## GreekTheatre (Sep 7, 2017)

If anyone has experience with using large amounts of flash paper or flash cotton, I'm wondering if the fire alarms might go off? I'm thinking about cutting the title "The Crucible" out of flash paper and lighting it on a dark stage at the start of the show. I realize that all the letters need to be touching but I'm also wondering if it will work properly if I lightly mount it on plywood or luon.


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## Amiers (Sep 7, 2017)

Depends on the detectors. Are they heat or particulate detectors. As well as if you have a fire system built into your HVAC system. Best to check with your facilities manager or whoever is in charge of maintaining both systems as they will know for sure. 

You could space out the letters just need a fuse for each letter.


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## GreekTheatre (Sep 7, 2017)

I know it's particulate but I'm not sure if there are sensors in the hvac.


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## Amiers (Sep 7, 2017)

Well particulates are going to pick up the smoke so really you will have to find out how much smoke this whole thing is going to give off. 

Looks like you get to do some testing.


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## GreekTheatre (Sep 7, 2017)

Hahaha yeah I suppose so!


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## icewolf08 (Sep 7, 2017)

Any Pyro effect, and certainly one of the scale you are talking about needs to be supervised by a licensed pyrotechnician and approved by your AHJ. Odds are that either one of those people could give you a definitive answer regarding the systems in your facility.


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## venuetech (Sep 7, 2017)

I will echo that, your licensed pyrotechntech will need to apply for a permit from AHJ.


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## Les (Sep 8, 2017)

icewolf08 said:


> Any Pyro effect, and certainly one of the scale you are talking about needs to be supervised by a licensed pyrotechnician and approved by your AHJ. Odds are that either one of those people could give you a definitive answer regarding the systems in your facility.



Agreed here also. I'm not sure what the implications are when using flash paper in large quantities but I've heard that sparklers can be downright explosive under the right conditions. Sounds like you need the right effect for the job, and the assistance/supervision of a licensed professional. We generally use lances for lettering, but we've only done these outside as they create a lot of smoke and flame. However, I wouldn't be surprised if there are indoor effects as well. Seems like flash paper/cotton would react too quickly to read, and perhaps with quite unpredictable results. Fire alarm detection does sound like a real possibility. 

I can only speak for my company, but we never look in to what types of detectors are in use. We just inform the venue that the system needs to be in standby/test/etc. It's up to the AHJ on what they want to do in regards to monitoring the building. In most cases they send someone out.

This is second-hand information, but I have heard that return air duct detectors are particulate.


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## Van (Sep 8, 2017)

Large volumes of Flash paper create LARGE volumes of flame and Smoke!
Far be it from me to fly in the face of Creativity but I would wonder if this gag were not better served by the use of a projection, wherein you could control the rate of burn and readability or even by videoing the flash paper effect then projecting that. 
There are also economic reasons for this. If you have to place your Fire alarm system in "stand by" while you have an audience in the theatre wyou will be required by your AHJ to provide "fire watch personnel" this means someone with a flashlight and fire extinguisher at every point of egress and ingress, to the theatre as well as the wings along with at least one <depending on the size of your venue> 'roving' fire watcher whose sole duty id to keep an eye out fire in the rest of the zone that has been put in stand by. That's a lot of folks to pay and that must factored into the cost of your effect. 
Also, having worked with a lot of flash paper over the years I can tell you it's finicky, and inconsistent. You almost never get the same burn rate from book to book. It's extremely temperamental. 

Again, I like the idea, I'm concerned about the practicality, economics and consistency.


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## Quillons (Sep 8, 2017)

If you do choose to do the effect, you might want to look at fireworks fuses. I'm taking a manufacturing class right now and one of the problems most of us had this week was cutting our internal fuse (I'm sure there's a name for it) slightly too long, so that our fireworks went off a little too late. For the stuff we were working with, we had burn rates of 3 seconds/inch of fuse and 7 seconds/inch of fuse.
There's still the problem of fire and smoke, but that might help with consistency.


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## GreekTheatre (Sep 8, 2017)

Lots of valuable insight. Thank you all!


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## BillESC (Sep 8, 2017)

Use a high output projector and a video clip of what you want. Save and inexpensive.


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## Les (Sep 8, 2017)

Quillons said:


> If you do choose to do the effect, you might want to look at fireworks fuses. I'm taking a manufacturing class right now and one of the problems most of us had this week was cutting our internal fuse (I'm sure there's a name for it) slightly too long, so that our fireworks went off a little too late. For the stuff we were working with, we had burn rates of 3 seconds/inch of fuse and 7 seconds/inch of fuse.
> There's still the problem of fire and smoke, but that might help with consistency.



Sounds like you're referring to Visco fuse? Of course this gets in to the murky waters of pyrotechnic manufacturing, on top of the implications/difficulties related to the original discussion.


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## Quillons (Sep 9, 2017)

Les said:


> murky waters of pyrotechnic manufacturing


Ah! That would make sense.... Shutting up now...


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## BillConnerFASTC (Sep 9, 2017)

Build one. Test it outside at night. Invite the local authorities. Video record it. (Share it here?) 

Depending how big a large led display might be better and easier than projection. Possibly behind some black scrim.


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## Les (Sep 9, 2017)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> Build one. Test it outside at night. Invite the local authorities. Video record it. (Share it here?)



It's a trap! 

I know how @BillConnerFASTC must feel about the effect, and honestly I agree with him. I love using pyro in large arenas and the like, but I think this effect warrants something a bit more tame. It's a lot of risk for such a quick little gag. Granted, it would look really cool if it worked correctly, but maybe something rear-projected would do just as well.


Quillons said:


> Ah! That would make sense.... Shutting up now...



Haha, you're fine!


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## Amiers (Sep 9, 2017)

I think all of us want to see this happen. And we all know a projector just doesn't have that real life in the moment effect.


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## Les (Sep 9, 2017)

Amiers said:


> I think all of us want to see this happen. And we all know a projector just doesn't have that real life in the moment effect.



I'd love to see it. But only if all necessary precautions are taken and the right people are involved.

FWIW, if you were to cold-call a pyrotechnics company, they'd probably propose a propane flame effect since they are much more reliable and consistent (and no/very low smoke). None of this dealing with flash paper business.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Sep 9, 2017)

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I don't think a size has been mentioned, and I suspect we all have somewhat varying notions of how large this is. I think the test outdoors would be safe and give an idea of the hazards and the effect. I am also concerned just from the aesthetic side it will burn too fast to be legible long enough to read it.

Some cool you tubes on making your own flash paper and "nitro-cotton" though.


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## Van (Sep 11, 2017)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> Perhaps I'm wrong, but I don't think a size has been mentioned, and I suspect we all have somewhat varying notions of how large this is. I think the test outdoors would be safe and give an idea of the hazards and the effect. I am also concerned just from the aesthetic side it will burn too fast to be legible long enough to read it.
> 
> Some cool you tubes on making your own flash paper and "nitro-cotton" though.


What did you do with the Real Bill Conner?


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## BillConnerFASTC (Sep 11, 2017)

Size matters.


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## RonHebbard (Sep 11, 2017)

Van said:


> *What did you do with the Real Bill Conner?*


@Van And would you mind doing it a couple of more times?
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.


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## GreekTheatre (Oct 3, 2017)

Amiers said:


> I think all of us want to see this happen. And we all know a projector just doesn't have that real life in the moment effect.


Thank you! ☺ I really appreciate the feedback from everyone. I have a cheap shipment of flash paper coming soon (?) and will get aa chance to test it then. Will post to this thread for alk all of you to see.


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## GreekTheatre (Oct 3, 2017)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> Perhaps I'm wrong, but I don't think a size has been mentioned, and I suspect we all have somewhat varying notions of how large this is. I think the test outdoors would be safe and give an idea of the hazards and the effect. I am also concerned just from the aesthetic side it will burn too fast to be legible long enough to read it.
> 
> Some cool you tubes on making your own flash paper and "nitro-cotton" though.


You're exactly right. I'm thinking about 5 feet long and scaling the height accordingly might be about a foot. Visibility will be a huge factor.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Oct 3, 2017)

Yeah, 5' could be a problem. Some (outdoor) experimenting seems it might help. I dont kno if ther is enough energy released to ignite ordinaty combustibles or not. Ive only held the small pieces in my hand and they are barely warm.


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## GreekTheatre (Oct 27, 2017)

Hi all! Just conducted the long-awaited test. Instead of cutting the letters out of the paper, we decided to frame the letters and paper the whole backside. We may yet experiment with cutting just the letters out. Here's the video of the test. Using a phone's camera is a little inaccurate/blurry since it doesn't focus on the flames very well. The frame is about 8ftx1.5ft and I ended up using 9 sheets of flash paper that were each 50cmx20cm. Turn off your audio unless you want to hear my annoying comments. 

We're talking about using electric starters connected to several points on the paper to make the whole thing go quicker. We might attach a starter to the bottom of each letter. Any thoughts on how to improve this are much appreciated!


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## RonHebbard (Oct 27, 2017)

GreekTheatre said:


> Hi all! Just conducted the long-awaited test. Instead of cutting the letters out of the paper, we decided to frame the letters and paper the whole backside. We may yet experiment with cutting just the letters out. Here's the video of the test. Using a phone's camera is a little inaccurate/blurry since it doesn't focus on the flames very well. The frame is about 8ftx1.5ft and I ended up using 9 sheets of flash paper that were each 50cmx20cm. Turn off your audio unless you want to hear my annoying comments.
> 
> We're talking about using electric starters connected to several points on the paper to make the whole thing go quicker. We might attach a starter to the bottom of each letter. Any thoughts on how to improve this are much appreciated!



@GreekTheatre If you have a *seriously licensed / qualified* pyro person available to you, Det' cord (detonation cord) MIGHT be in her/his arsenal of tricks. Detonation cords are sold in various burn rates / propagation times and could certainly deal with your speed issues. 
It goes without saying, I'm MOST DEFINITELY *NOT* a pyro person and remember less than enough to be dangerous. The last time I held a pyro' license in my province was at least 40 years ago.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Oct 27, 2017)

Neat!


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## Amiers (Oct 27, 2017)

That was pretty cool. Took a really long time. Very anticlimactic but for alpha testing I think it went very well. 

I would use some sort of backlights and smoke to clean up the effect.


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## Les (Oct 28, 2017)

FYI, you 99.9% need a permit for this . 

For electronic ignition, give Talon Igniter Clips a try. They contain a small filament inside which can ignite Visco fuse or (probably) flash paper when 12v is applied. You just clip the jaws on to whatever you want to ignite and you're ready to go.


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## seanandkate (Oct 28, 2017)

An e-match to ignite all of the letters simultaneously from the bottom will cut the burn time by a great deal. Eliminate any flash paper that isn't needed for the letters and you won't have all that extra burning material peeling off when it ignites. And as Les said, make your AHJ your friend on this one, or hire a pyro guy to cover your bases.


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## GreekTheatre (Oct 29, 2017)

Les said:


> FYI, you 99.9% need a permit for this .
> 
> For electronic ignition, give Talon Igniter Clips a try. They contain a small filament inside which can ignite Visco fuse or (probably) flash paper when 12v is applied. You just clip the jaws on to whatever you want to ignite and you're ready to go.


Just wondering for clarification...do you mean we need a permit for the flash paper or using those clips? I talked the whole project over with our HR rep and she said we didn't need to do any kind of paperwork. (This is the state of MN if that helps at all.)


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## Les (Oct 29, 2017)

GreekTheatre said:


> Just wondering for clarification...do you mean we need a permit for the flash paper or using those clips? I talked the whole project over with our HR rep and she said we didn't need to do any kind of paperwork. (This is the state of MN if that helps at all.)



The igniter clips are totally legal (e-matches, however, are not). It's the flash paper/open flame effect that gets in to the potential need for permitting. In most states, this would be the case unless MN is extremely lax. In fact, you most likely need a licensed pyrotechnician _in addition_ to the permit, as having one doesn't necessarily satisfy the other. I would contact the AHJ - even though I know that's a can of worms akin to asking the barber if you need a haircut. But better to be safe than sorry.

If it's any help to you, this should fall under NFPA 1126. If I have time, I can do a little cursory research. But inquiring with the AHJ is what I would do in either event.

*Edit #1:* Here's a little light reading: https://dps.mn.gov/divisions/sfm/pr.../Fireworks/FireworksGuidelinesRevised2011.pdf

Pages 5 and 6 get in to indoor displays. I'm sure there is much more relevant information — I've only begun skimming it myself.

*Edit #2:* There is an exception on Page 7 involving theatrical flash paper effects. However, the document urges organizations to contact the AHJ to ensure that the exception applies to them. With the amount you're planning to use, I certainly would recommend that.

I hope this is helpful. I'd dig deeper, but I actually just got home from shooting fireworks at Four Seasons and still have a layer of black powder coating my clothes, arms, and face .


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## RonHebbard (Oct 29, 2017)

Les said:


> The igniter clips are totally legal (e-matches, however, are not). It's the flash paper/open flame effect that gets in to the potential need for permitting. In most states, this would be the case unless MN is extremely lax. In fact, you most likely need a licensed pyrotechnician _in addition_ to the permit, as having one doesn't necessarily satisfy the other. I would contact the AHJ - even though I know that's a can of worms akin to asking the barber if you need a haircut. But better to be safe than sorry.
> 
> If it's any help to you, this should fall under NFPA 1126. If I have time, I can do a little cursory research. But inquiring with the AHJ is what I would do in either event.
> 
> ...


 @Les *Simply reading through all of that was quite the slog.* Does each state write something like that from scratch or do they borrow from one another and customize to taste? I did note the paragraph outlining inter-state boundaries and restrictions. After having invested about an hour reading what you've provided, I can't help but wonder how anyone could / would suggest there was no need of any "paper work". Sound's like a quick cop-out on someone's part to me.
Very impressive, comprehensive, thorough, 'I' dotting and 'T' crossing.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.


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## Les (Oct 29, 2017)

RonHebbard said:


> @Les *Simply reading through all of that was quite the slog.* Does each state write something like that from scratch or do they borrow from one another and customize to taste?



I'm impressed that you read through it - I lost interest after page 7! But then again, I've had my fill of these kinds of documents as a result of my career and educational choices... .

I think most of this stuff is adapted from the NFPA books. They'll change the formatting and other minor things, but mostly it's all the same information. For example, I recently wrote an Emergency Response Plan for my facility. The templates are available online, just fill in the blanks! 

The exception of course being states that really go all out (cough California cough). There probably is also some adopting/cooperation among states as well - at least that would be the smart thing: Looking at who is 'doing it right' and try to emulate them.


RonHebbard said:


> I can't help but wonder how anyone could / would suggest there was no need of any "paper work". Sound's like a quick cop-out on someone's part to me.



Ha! I agree. One thing I have learned from doing pyro, Class IV lasers, OSHA, etc... There is *always* paperwork if you look hard enough. "Nope, there's no paperwork" should definitely be in the List of Big Lies. Right along side "yes I tested it before we flew it out", "it's basically just a lights up/lights down kind of show", "we only need a couple of mics" or "we'll be out by 10pm".


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## GreekTheatre (Oct 29, 2017)

Les said:


> The igniter clips are totally legal (e-matches, however, are not). It's the flash paper/open flame effect that gets in to the potential need for permitting. In most states, this would be the case unless MN is extremely lax. In fact, you most likely need a licensed pyrotechnician _in addition_ to the permit, as having one doesn't necessarily satisfy the other. I would contact the AHJ - even though I know that's a can of worms akin to asking the barber if you need a haircut. But better to be safe than sorry.
> 
> If it's any help to you, this should fall under NFPA 1126. If I have time, I can do a little cursory research. But inquiring with the AHJ is what I would do in either event.
> 
> ...


Thank you-I really appreciate your work on this!


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## icewolf08 (Nov 8, 2017)

GreekTheatre said:


> Just wondering for clarification...do you mean we need a permit for the flash paper or using those clips? I talked the whole project over with our HR rep and she said we didn't need to do any kind of paperwork. (This is the state of MN if that helps at all.)


Unless your HR rep is trained on fire and pyro safety, or is your fire marshal their "blessing" means very little. As you are associated with the state, it is very likely that your venue has a fire marshal who is likely your AHJ. In this day and age, most AHJs want/need to approve of lighting candles or cigarettes on stage. An effect like this is way beyond simple "open flames." Most states require a licensed shooter for an effect like this, and at this point I think you need to consult a local professional.

As it stands, this thread is walking the fine line of what we allow on CB, so I urge everyone involved to consider the laws regarding pyro and the CB rules regarding pyro as this thread continues.


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