# Abandon teaching incandescent ?



## SteveB

As the title implies, the theater department lighting program where I work is contemplating no longer teaching color and design based on incandescent lighting and color theory,_ as the primary method_ to create a lighting design. 

Instead concentrate on developing design based on the inherent color mixing in LED and other CMY/CYM mixing methods.

An article recently by Justin Townsend in Live Design somewhat outlines his thoughts on the subject. If you are subscribed, the article is here:

https://www.livedesignonline.com/gear/what-s-trending-led-revolution-justin-townsend

I can also post a pdf as needed.

Thoughts ?. Are still in need of designing AND teaching our up and coming designers with old fashioned gel's ?


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## BillConnerFASTC

Great question. I look gorward to the responses.

Do you still teach drafting by hand? And would uou at least teach incandescent as history since so much of LED tries to imitate incandescent?


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## MNicolai

There used to be safe gel colors students could resort to before they really became accustomed to the different shades of ambers and blues and such. Then the show is tethered to those gels for the entire duration of the show. Now that you can throw any color on stage at any time, every cue requires a decision on color and in many cases the decision needs to be _"don't touch that!" _Students will need a more solid foundation of color theory because faking it til you make it is harder than it used to be. There are more decisions to be made and they need to be rendered faster.

Control theory of consoles is more important than ever. The ability to experiment is great but I've seen students fall into the trap of putting off most of their decisions until the first day of tech and then tech gets burned entirely on basic lighting looks and getting the student designer and student programmer together on the same page about groups, palettes, etc. and sometimes they never get into a groove and the show becomes a LSD trip without any cohesive color theory or consistency of looks throughout the show. Workflow is key, and it's getting harder to just walk up to a console and throw faders.

You might not need to teach about scrollers and dimmers as much, but putting gel books in everyone's hands at least provides a foundation for vocabulary to describe colors that are subtly different. If you're going to teach CMY or scenic painting, you would still be teaching subtractive color mixing even as your lighting becomes more incandescent. It could also be another 5-10 years before tungsten really gets absorbed by LED as existing venues make the $$$ investment in LED instead of replacing their incandescents, so I wouldn't throw that side of the curriculum out of the window quite yet.


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## TheaterEd

How are your students going to feel when they have graduated and have to turn jobs down in older venues?

Kinda like knowing how to drive a manual transmission. It might not come up every day, but when it does....

Knowing how to light using incandescent and then shifting to LED is not a rough transition. Going the other route is going to be rough. You can use the basic theories and properties of light that you learn with incandescent to better understand LEDs. It's important to know where we came from, to better understand where we are going and how we got there.

Like Mike said, you might not need to teach how to use scrollers, but it's still important that students understand what they were and how they were used. If for no other reason, so that when they find a box of 4-pin xlr their brains don't explode!


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## Lextech

While LED and CMY fixtures are now common in a lot of venues they are still, by my regional experience, not everywhere yet. Too many smaller theaters have not made the switch nor have the government owned one. Even at my rather well off institution of higher learning we are conventional for everything but wash lights. Who knows when the everyone will switch over but for now gel is still a product we use in this business. That being said the end is coming, there now are no PAR lamps being produced outside of China. How soon will FEL and EHG lamps follow. I don't see HPLs going away soon but at some point this tiny little market will become unprofitable for manufactures without becoming unaffordable for the end user. So I guess my point is, I think it is premature to stop teaching with gel. It gives us a common language with which to discuss design and unless the graduate is working at a high level right out of college they will be lost.


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## EdSavoie

Some basic colour theory and getting used to at least common gels and filters is a good idea. Even if that person never works with incandescent fixtures again, I think lessons of subtracting various colours from "white", even in subtle gels like everyone's favorite surprise pink is valuable in and of itself.

It's also nice when you're in a colder venue, or at least one where facilities refuse to turn up the heat


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## DrewE

How many places with LED fixtures have (at least some) white-only LED fixtures and still use gel on them? I would have guessed that was fairly common, but it's only a guess.


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## BillConnerFASTC

For lighting designers, not tech, I don't know if you should stop teaching incandescent and gels, but you should definitely be teaching data wrangling - both network and dmx and??? In an all incandescent world, a lighting designer could leave most things wiring to the ME. Not so with LED.


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## macsound

I think abandoning the foundation of lighting design, regardless of how the fixture lights up, is a bad idea. 

There are audio schools on both US coasts that have long abandoned teaching how analog audio processing works in favor of teaching only using the newest, most expensive digital consoles. Those students get dropped into their first corporate gig and cant get 1 microphone wired and working in a meeting room.


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## BillConnerFASTC

macsound said:


> I think abandoning the foundation of lighting design, regardless of how the fixture lights up, is a bad idea.



So teach gas, arc, and limelight too? I'm sure that's what the old timers said when incandescent was new.


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## tjrobb

Possibly throwing a wrench here - what of arc source movers that use subtractive mixing internally? Those are still very much a thing, so the gel-based theory would be quite handy to know.


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## RonHebbard

BillConnerFASTC said:


> So teach gas, arc, and limelight too? I'm sure that's what the old timers said when incandescent was new.


 *@macsound* and *@BillConnerFASTC* Gas, arc, limelight and wicking whale oil too. *@GreyWyvern* Care to comment*? * (and what about that printed gel*??*)
Toodleoo! 
Ron Hebbard


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## macsound

tjrobb said:


> Possibly throwing a wrench here - what of arc source movers that use subtractive mixing internally? Those are still very much a thing, so the gel-based theory would be quite handy to know.


Even most large new LED based movers are CMY subtractive mixing. See the VL2600


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## SteveB

I think one BIG question in my mind is do new designers need to be able to visualize from experience, what color filters do in incandescent units ?. 

I think that Justin has it mostly correct that we will be seeing, faster than we think maybe, the significant increase in all LED rigs, in place of incandescent. Thus I'm certain he's pondering what's the best way to teach students about color mixing in the new systems. 

I think the dialog of how color is perceived by the human eye and what emotions it calls up, is the same whether you get that color thru a semi-infinite mixing system, or choose it out of a swatch book. Part of the question is do we still need to teach what gels/filters look like on stage, as we are all aware that what a gel swatch color looks like held up to a desk lamp is not what it look like on a stage, so there's a learning curve in that respect and I think students need to be able to have a memory of what gel derived colors look like in real world. 

But possibly not and as per Bill's original; post, maybe no longer a need to teach hand drafting either, for the same argument, nobody will ever do it that way !. 

Note as well, that teaching about gels and incandescent is likely to still be covered as it'll be years before the all LED system is the norm everywhere, so students will need to learn some of the old skills.


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## macsound

Another way to look at this is using gels in ways besides theatrically designed lights. We commonly use gels for practicals that need to "feel" a certain way in the show. We use gels for music stand lights, footlights, windows in set pieces etc.
Without that foundation of knowledge, you wouldn't know how to color any non-color changing fixture. 
I think even when LEDs are common and hung in every theatre in america, there will still be lights in the building that need a gel related solution. Even if it's just in the booth.


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## RonHebbard

macsound said:


> Another way to look at this is using gels in ways besides theatrically designed lights. We commonly use gels for practicals that need to "feel" a certain way in the show. We use gels for music stand lights, footlights, windows in set pieces etc.
> Without that foundation of knowledge, you wouldn't know how to color any non-color changing fixture.
> I think even when LEDs are common and hung in every theatre in america, there will still be lights in the building that need a gel related solution. Even if it's just in the booth.


 *@macsound* Possibly I've been in my cave too long. Are there still 4' and 8' fluorescents in the wild*?* If so, does Rosco still make gel in sleeves to slip over fluorescents*?? * The sleeves used to be popular in museums and dressing areas. I'll crawl back in my cave. 
Toodleoo! 
Ron Hebbard


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## EdSavoie

TheaterEd said:


> If for no other reason, so that when they find a box of 4-pin xlr their brains don't explode!



Why, those are clearcom extension cables of course!


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## RonHebbard

EdSavoie said:


> Why, those are clearcom extension cables of course!


For your headsets, not your packs. ( *@EdSavoie* Don't the secret out south of the wall.)
Toodleoo! 
Ron Hebbard


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## techieman33

EdSavoie said:


> Why, those are clearcom extension cables of course!



Gotta get those spots ops far away from their clearcom boxes to make sure they can't talk in the middle of the show.


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## RonHebbard

techieman33 said:


> Gotta get those spots ops far away from their clearcom boxes to make sure they can't talk in the middle of the show.


 *@techieman33* We used to lay our ClearCom packs on top of our arc Super Trouper power supplies so everyone would know when it was a spot op' talking. 
Toodleoo! 
Ron Hebbard


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## SteveB

macsound said:


> Another way to look at this is using gels in ways besides theatrically designed lights. We commonly use gels for practicals that need to "feel" a certain way in the show. We use gels for music stand lights, footlights, windows in set pieces etc.
> Without that foundation of knowledge, you wouldn't know how to color any non-color changing fixture.
> I think even when LEDs are common and hung in every theatre in america, there will still be lights in the building that need a gel related solution. Even if it's just in the booth.



Really good point.


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## EdSavoie

What, you don't want to  Weaponize  turn music stands into intelligent lighting?

Think of how  distracting  nice of us it would be if the colour of their sheet music changed with every beat!


But seriously, i think we'll be putting sheets of blue gel in our ceiling lights, and using the wrong kind of tape to secure it to our desk lamps for a long time to come.


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## macsound

RonHebbard said:


> *@macsound* Possibly I've been in my cave too long. Are there still 4' and 8' fluorescents in the wild*?* If so, does Rosco still make gel in sleeves to slip over fluorescents*?? * The sleeves used to be popular in museums and dressing areas. I'll crawl back in my cave.
> Toodleoo!
> Ron Hebbard


Yes absolutely still have fluorescents everywhere. Including the 40 over my head in my office that have been dead for years! Some places have upgraded the tubes to LED, but they still operate the same way, just somehow fakes out the ballast. 
When I did corporate events, there were channels between some of the ballrooms that had a dozen or so tubes that would get the Rosco (or offbrand) gel tube covers so those channels in the wall were all blue or whatever the brand's color was. Super cheap and incredibly impactful.


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## SteveB

EdSavoie said:


> What, you don't want to  Weaponize  turn music stands into intelligent lighting?
> 
> Think of how  distracting  nice of us it would be if the colour of their sheet music changed with every beat!
> 
> 
> But seriously, i think we'll be putting sheets of blue gel in our ceiling lights, and using the wrong kind of tape to secure it to our desk lamps for a long time to come.



When Tommy Tune played our venue, the base plot was from Natasha Katz. The music stand lights were Roscolux 3313 or some such (all 5) and I was like REALLY ?. Not R35, R33 or something we keep in stock ?. Really Natasha ?. I know she went from like college to being Ken Billingtons assistant and from there to Broadway in about as much time it takes me to type this. Never ever toured and would have no experience that the venue in Podunk, Iowa isn’t going to have R3313 in stock, will have to order it, $7 per sheet and $20 for shipping. 

So maybe someday I’ll be able to dial in that music stand color from the console via DMX WiFi and all will be good.


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## RonHebbard

SteveB said:


> When Tommy Tune played our venue, the base plot was from Natasha Katz. The music stand lights were Roscolux 3313 or some such (all 5) and I was like REALLY ?. Not R35, R33 or something we keep in stock ?. Really Natasha ?. I know she went from like college to being Ken Billingtons assistant and from there to Broadway in about as much time it takes me to type this. Never ever toured and would have no experience that the venue in Podunk, Iowa isn’t going to have R3313 in stock, will have to order it, $7 per sheet and $20 for shipping.
> 
> So maybe someday I’ll be able to dial in that music stand color from the console via DMX WiFi and all will be good.


 *@SteveB* A music stand light with RDM; _now there's a concept_. In my shop days we built parts of a set for 'Best Little Whorehouse Goes Public'; directed by Mr. Tune with lighting by Mr. Jules Fisher assisted by Ms. Peggy Eisenhauer. Ms. Eisenhauer is a well remembered class act, Mr. Fisher we never saw and if I'm recalling correctly very few patrons saw the production as it closed during previews, I believe prior to reaching its official opening night. That Ms. Peggy was a joyous pleasure to meet. 
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard


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## JChenault

SteveB said:


> As the title implies, the theater department lighting program where I work is contemplating no longer teaching color and design based on incandescent lighting and color theory,_ as the primary method_ to create a lighting design.
> 
> Instead concentrate on developing design based on the inherent color mixing in LED and other CMY/CYM mixing methods.
> 
> Thoughts ?. Are still in need of designing AND teaching our up and coming designers with old fashioned gel's ?



I think you ( and your department) are conflating two things here.

One is the ability to morph colors ( which is what I read the article you are talking about is really saying) The other is how to think about color in light.

True - incandescent and gels don't do morphing very well, but it seems to me that if you are trying to teach the students how to think about color in light, that something like a gel book is still extremely important.

Several reasons for this. The first is one of naming. How do you communicate a color to someone. I believe you need some way to communicate to directors, other designers, etc what the approximate color you are shooting for is going to be. The current accepted shorthand for this is gel colors - either by name or more commonly by number. I don't think you should try to invent a new way to define the name of a color so you can communicate it to others.

The second issue is one of understanding how color and your eye really works. An incandescent fixture puts out a wide range of frequencies. We select which frequencies we want based on the gel. There is no way to get the same kind of color in light from an LED fixture ( Ok - the ETC Luster with 7 color diodes comes close - maybe close enough. But a simple RGB - or RGBA - or RGBLA etc just will not look the same.) You are trying to train a designers eye to understand color in light. Unless you want to train them using something like the Luster - you likely will find better results with incandescent and gel for at least part of the training.

Finally the question of what will the students find when they get out into the world. This has already been covered by other posters but it is a point. 

Sure you must teach how LED's work and how to use them. You must teach your students how to think about moving color, not just static color - but you also need to spend some time on just color which I don't see how you can do without using gel and gel names.


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## SteveB

Good points John.

Note that I'm not actually the person doing the teaching, I'm an innocent bystander to what the students are attempting (and support them with the technical needs). Justin Townsend teaches lighting and he wrote the article, and he gets to decide how best to teach about color. 

One of his comments to me about the "All LED" question was that one of his students has NEVER used gel (I've encountered R&R LD's whom have never used gel either). That students designs have been based around an all LED rig. Indeed of the past 7 or so events in our new building that received a really, really nice package of 134 Lustrs, 52 D60's, 18 ColorForce 2's, and a bunch of Elation Platinum and Satura's (as well as 200 S4 incandescents), is that every one of these 7 shows used a primary LED or all LED rig. I think the past one used an incandescent wall sconce A lamp in an otherwise all LED system. 

And I wonder if the whole vocabulary of color, based on gel, is valid at this point. I think everybody understands terms like Amber, Pink, Red, Lavender, Teal, etc..... including directors and other designers, as they get used to describing colors in all walks of life and the gel book terms merely follow thru on everyday terms and definitions of color. Where do we learn about color ?, well we get taught that early on and we lighting people only start to learn gels if we decide to work in a theatrical field where filters to color light are used. I have worked with MFA Television students who've no, or a poor vocabulary of color and what term means what. They know red, green yellow (traffic lights), but maybe terms using gels like Bastard Amber, they are not going to know. Do they now need too ?, as it's a definition of a gel color they may never use.


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## SteveB

BillConnerFASTC said:


> For lighting designers, not tech, I don't know if you should stop teaching incandescent and gels, but you should definitely be teaching data wrangling - both network and dmx and??? In an all incandescent world, a lighting designer could leave most things wiring to the ME. Not so with LED.



This issue, how to get a smart rig powered and connected, reared its ugly head this year with our all LED and ML rigs, of 200 fixtures. The time spent was 3 times as long to install as compared to an incandescent with a cable to a dimmed circuit.

The tools needed - Vectorworks to draw out power and data cabling, Lightwright to do the addressing, check for errors, set DMX footprints for fixtures, send the patch to Eos, configure Nodes via ETC Concert, uses Eos palettes and Magic Sheets, are all new tools the kids need to know and learn. It's not yet getting taught I had frequent thoughts in the past year that LD's who understand this end of the system and can figure it out are far better equipped then the LD's who don't. If they have to rely on an assistant or production electrician who understands it and cannot get it together when neither is in the budget, is in a world of hurt at load in time.


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## BillConnerFASTC

SteveB said:


> The time spent was 3 times as long to install as compared to an incandescent with a cable to a dimmed circuit.



Yup. I use to check out a new lighting system for punch list in half a day. Carry a test lamp, have them run the dimmer up and down - next. 3, 4, 5 racks - maybe late lunch. Now - lucky to be done in 2 or 3 days. And the calls after from the user. OMG. Brave new world.


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## Jay Ashworth

I will phrase this in a slightly more expansive way than I originally planned:

We have not yet reached (in my semi-professional opinion), as an industry, the point where incandescent deployment is a small enough percentage to warrant this change in pedagogy. Yet. But yet might be another 10 years.

Doubt 20.


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## Jay Ashworth

EdSavoie said:


> But seriously, i think we'll be putting sheets of blue gel in our ceiling lights, and using the wrong kind of tape to secure it to our desk lamps for a long time to come.



Hey! We always use gaff to gel our cliplights!


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## RonHebbard

Jay Ashworth said:


> Hey! We always use gaff to gel our cliplights!


 * @Jay Ashworth* But what color of gaff tape are you using and why*??* (Only the shadow and *@BillConnerFASTC* know for sure!)
Toodleoo! 
Ron Hebbard


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## Jay Ashworth

2" black, unless that isn't handy, just like everyone else.


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## RickR

Gels over incandescents are broad band colors. LEDs are narrow band emitters even when phosphor converted.

Students must understand those two sentences and be able to adapt to whatever technology comes next.


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## Ancient Engineer

I'm with RickR on this.

The importance of discovering what portions of the spectrum are NOT generated by LEDs is a very valuable bit.

LED white is not full spectrum.


Mmmmm the sweet smell of my sandwich warming up on top of the arc Super Trooper...ahh.


But now I must venture forth into the rain and see what has become of a lost subwoofer... (Community R-6sub, about the size of a fridge...)

Whee


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## Colin

Good thread. When Steve mentions abandoning “incandescent lighting and color theory, _as the primary method_ to create a lighting design” that sounds about right to me. It doesn’t sound like completely eliminating incandescent from curriculum, but rather accepting that when resources allow, LEDs are going to play a primary role in design process and results. I wouldn’t want to graduate students having zero experience with incandescent, but it would be a mistake to confuse incandescent and gel technologies for fundamentals of lighting design. I do think incandescent is useful to teach for all the reasons already mentioned, but it sounds correct to as resources allow phase out teaching it as the primary/normal/regular way to light a stage or studio. It may be in many places for many more years, and let’s give them some skills for it, but teaching _agility_ between technologies has to be a main goal along with teaching the undeniable “next thing” of LED and whatever follows. Part of that agility involves an understanding of core design concepts, and part involves establishing an inquisitive practice that enables the student to leverage available equipment towards those ends, regardless of what the equipment is and whether or not they've had someone else teach them about it - the goal is for them to not need that. As much as lighting design is tied to technology, it's still useful to de-couple the two from time to time.

When there’s a sea-change in the technology we use, that’s when I think we notice more the ways in which prevalent technologies have become shorthand for discussing and thinking about design. We may have attachments to gel transmissions and incandescent dimming (I sure do) because across generations of use we have figured out so well how to play to the strengths of those technologies, and have developed a whole creative culture around their particulars. Gel numbers (and better yet “R78 @50” vs “R78 @FL”) are a really powerful shorthand for those who know their swatchbooks well (but really, how many non-LD collaborators do?) and further they’ve shaped the way lighting designers think and learn – that’s what interests me as an educator. Now we’re challenged with figuring it out over again with our new toys. We should start figuring it out now, a little bit before LED is truly dominant in all corners of the industry; then it would be too late to _prepare_ our students.

It’s immensely important to have something to push against, and the limitations of incandescent have been one of those things providing the resistance that so often yields the most exciting and elegant design solutions when we push into it. If that wall is removed for students (rather than being navigated _by them_) then they are off and sprinting blindfolded until they splat into the next one without picking anything useful up on the way. Since changing over about ½ inventory to LED (the dance plot we do a lot of teaching with is nearly all LED) my biggest teaching concern has been how to ensure students still learn to prosecute color decisions rigorously and in advance of cueing sessions. If a student is looking for a night blue then I’ll still as always start by making them answer more questions to attach some useful adjectives and research efforts to the character of that night blue. But when the student stops listening somewhere between fifteen and zero words before I say “research” then if I’m teaching gel I can open three swatchbooks and point to dozens of options that could be “night blue” along with some “night” colors not blue at all, say “pick one and defend it” and the magnitude of the decision begins to set in. Without those broad yet finite options gel provides, I have to find other ways to impress the importance of infusing color with intent and specificity. Otherwise, a majority of students will get to tech and just flail a finger towards the blue corner of the touchscreen color picker, see a really pretty LED blue that may or may not have anything to do with the show and other design elements, and record. They have to get over the thrill of having all that color instantly at their fingertips before they get down to the art of dialing it in purposefully. So we spend a lot of time working on that with the LED tools. That’s really the resistance I want them to push into next – the ease of access to color, and how that ease affects color decisions for better and worse. Also, how that ease affects decisions about angle, texture, movement…

Consider that one of our goals ought to be to, by modeling and providing practice, prepare students to lead the next (probably several) sea-changes in technology in ways that preserve and enhance the artform rather than dumbing it down. Here’s a good opportunity to build those adaptive skills. Teach the characteristics of the technology and how they solve old challenges and create new ones all under the umbrella of rigorous and practical design thought.


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## RonHebbard

Ancient Engineer said:


> I'm with RickR on this.
> 
> The importance of discovering what portions of the spectrum are NOT generated by LEDs is a very valuable bit.
> 
> LED white is not full spectrum.
> 
> _Mmmmm_ the sweet smell of my sandwich warming up on top of the arc Super Trooper...ahh.
> 
> But now I must venture forth into the rain and see what has become of a lost subwoofer... (Community R-6sub, about the size of a fridge...)
> 
> 
> _Whee_


 *@Ancient Engineer* It's hard to misplace a sub that large; is this somewhat similar to Britain's great train robbery which technically involved no loss of trains but merely the contents thereof*?* Please don't make too much noise on head set salivating over your delectably warmed sandwich. 
Toodleoo! 
Ron Hebbard


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## Jay Ashworth

I have an analogy for Colin's posting that I think is both pertinent and reasonable, though it's a bit off topic.

Long time fans of Casey Kasem will have heard the term "The Rock Era" about 35,000 times. 

It's generally held to have started with the release of "Rock Around The Clock" in 1954, and most people don't spend a lot of time talking about whether -- or when -- it ended.

But I had that conversation with a dozen or so music chart wonks last year, and we decided that the Rock Era -- the era when popular music was primarily influenced by Rock and Roll -- had indeed ended... on September 24, 1991, when Nirvana's Nevermind was released, and alt/grunge took over as the major influence on pop music. It has since moved on further; that major influence now seems to be hip hop.

The major influence on lighting pedagogy is still subtractive tungsten... but it's changing to additive LED... and it will get there in another decade.

Or two.


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## TimMc

Jay Ashworth said:


> I have an analogy for Colin's posting that I think is both pertinent and reasonable, though it's a bit off topic.
> 
> Long time fans of Casey Kasem will have heard the term "The Rock Era" about 35,000 times.
> 
> It's generally held to have started with the release of "Rock Around The Clock" in 1954, and most people don't spend a lot of time talking about whether -- or when -- it ended.
> 
> But I had that conversation with a dozen or so music chart wonks last year, and we decided that the Rock Era -- the era when popular music was primarily influenced by Rock and Roll -- had indeed ended... on September 24, 1991, when Nirvana's Nevermind was released, and alt/grunge took over as the major influence on pop music. It has since moved on further; that major influence now seems to be hip hop.
> 
> The major influence on lighting pedagogy is still subtractive tungsten... but it's changing to additive LED... and it will get there in another decade.
> 
> Or two.



It will be a fait accompli before 2020, Jay. So much of what I see on touring musicals is LED based or discharge lamps. Still some incandescent up in the air, but strip lights and ground rows are almost all LED. The comment I hear about the latter is that drops painted with tungsten and gel in mind look different under LED illumination with a supposed gel match.

That takes us back to:

RickR said:


> Gels over incandescents are broad band colors. LEDs are narrow band emitters even when phosphor converted.
> 
> Students must understand those two sentences and be able to adapt to whatever technology comes next.



^^^ THIS. The train has left the station, the transition has already begun. The question is how to teach a color vocabulary when the light source, while incredibly adjustable, doesn't understand gel numbers or color names? When do we stop teaching students to think, to visualize, in the Ye Olde Wayz?


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## Jay Ashworth

Sure, Tim. But what percentage of Houses, much less Fixtures, do you think touring musicals are?

There are probably thousands, if not tens of thousands, of small houses that won't go all LED for a long time, asymptotically converging on Never.


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## MNicolai

Jay Ashworth said:


> Sure, Tim. But what percentage of Houses, much less Fixtures, do you think touring musicals are?
> 
> There are probably thousands, if not tens of thousands, of small houses that won't go all LED for a long time, asymptotically converging on Never.



Nah, the transition will be janky and piece-mealed but with costs coming down on LED's people will find a way to pay for LED's over maintaining their tungsten inventories. Lot of the small theaters that might be deterred are the same ones who want to stop buying heavy duty power cables, two-fers, lamps, gels, and such. Especially the venues that are constrained with how much power they can tap into. They'll go to Guitar Center and pick up a handful of Taiwan's finest rather than buy a single new tungsten fixture.

It won't be pretty but it will be inevitable.


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## RonHebbard

Jay Ashworth said:


> Sure, Tim. But what percentage of Houses, much less Fixtures, do you think touring musicals are?
> 
> There are probably thousands, if not tens of thousands, of small houses that won't go all LED for a long time, asymptotically converging on Never.


 *@Jay Ashworth* "_asymptotically_". I've got to admit, Jay; you sent me to Google with that one. *@BillConnerFASTC* How often do you find Jay's "_asymptotically_" casually rolling of your tongue*?* *@MNicolai @derekleffew @TimMc* Same question; how about it*??? @Quillons ; how about you???? (Deep in the heat of your Mechanical PEng courses) 
Toodleoo! 
Ron Hebbard*


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## BillConnerFASTC

I estimate there are not 500 professional/touring theatres in US. And over 30,000-35,000 K-12 - public and private - albeit a number are gymnatoriums and cafetoriums. Higher ed - I don't recall my last estimation off hand - maybe 3000-4000.

Some of those will rely on tungsten for at least 20 more years I'd guess.


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## SteveB

BillConnerFASTC said:


> I estimate there are not 500 professional/touring theatres in US. And over 30,000-35,000 K-12 - public and private - albeit a number are gymnatoriums and cafetoriums. Higher ed - I don't recall my last estimation off hand - maybe 3000-4000.
> 
> Some of those will rely on tungsten for at least 20 more years I'd guess.



I think for the purpose of original post, I would wonder how many theater/venues/studios that would have Professional LD’s working there, exist. That’s where the students getting trained now are likely to be working. Not the thousands of schools.


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## BillConnerFASTC

Very few in the pro venues. Most of those students - the very small percentage who will find employment designing lighting - will be in pro venues. Most in educational.


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## TimMc

Jay Ashworth said:


> Sure, Tim. But what percentage of Houses, much less Fixtures, do you think touring musicals are?
> 
> There are probably thousands, if not tens of thousands, of small houses that won't go all LED for a long time, asymptotically converging on Never.


Absolutely, but when lamps become Unobtainium, it's over. And from what we're seeing reported elsewhere on CB that's happening with certain types already.

Yeah, I don't see the community theater in my mom's hometown finding $10k to replace the console, dimmers and limited lighting they already own but sooner, rather than later, it's gonna happen.

I brought up touring because it reflects a balance of design integrity, practical application and commercial reality that others inevitably follow. Today we loaded in the Beautiful - The Carol King Musical and probably 70% of the show is incandescent (Color Ram II, anyone?) so the transition is still in the beginning but trust me, Jay, I think the train has left the station.

Our choices depend on our roles in production - as techs (and not designers) my gig is to put the lights in the air and circuit/DMX them according to the plot; as a community theater LD the gig is to make the 17 working fixtures look like 70 fixtures; as a teacher the gig is to instruct students as to how the craft evolved, how to design for the craft, and give students the intellectual and artistic tools that allow them to improve on their knowledge, art and skill as a career path.

I totally missed the Digital Prediction of Audio Domination, figuring analog would still have a smaller but parallel place in sound. Are there still thousands of little Mackie mixers in use? You bet. Are the going away? Yes, sooner or (probably) later. Are there thousands of new, large frame analog consoles being sold each year? Nope, not even. A little bird told me that Yamaha finally scrapped the 300 PM5000 that remained unsold after it was introduced right about the time the D-Show came out. I submit that at the mid and upper end, lighting will not be significantly different.


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## RonHebbard

BillConnerFASTC said:


> I estimate there are not 500 professional/touring theatres in US. And over 30,000-35,000 K-12 - public and private - albeit a number are gymnatoriums and cafetoriums. Higher ed - I don't recall my last estimation off hand - maybe 3000-4000.
> 
> Some of those will rely on tungsten for at least 20 more years I'd guess.


 *@BillConnerFASTC * _ IF_ they can still source replacement lamps for their luminaires for beyond the next decade?? 
Toodleoo! 
Ron Hebbard


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## Quillons

Really interesting discussion

As a student I want to be employable, both now and in the future. In school I want to learn the basic concepts and have the opportunity to touch the really cool stuff that I may not see for a while since I'll be starting on the bottom of the totem pole in the working world. Depending on how your classes are laid out, I think it would make the most sense to teach the color theory and incandescent stuff in the early years- you want the students to be able to get summerstock jobs and (correct me if I'm wrong) those will probably be incandescent for at least a few more years. Once students are starting to think about full time work, then they might want to know more about the fancy LED tools that they may encounter in the wild.

And @RonHebbard: I mean, not everything is asymptotic, but one of the pages I can bring to one of my finals is titled "Asymptotic Bode Plots". So, it comes up.


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## BillConnerFASTC

What uou learn in school will probably be out of date within 10 years. I learned hand drafting. 3 - 4 years out AutoCAD. And more. Like who needs to understand patch panels today. Just assume youll see several generations of tech in a carer.


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## Quillons

This does not bode well for anyone if the experiment I did looking at the rotation of the earth is out of date in a few years!


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## RonHebbard

BillConnerFASTC said:


> What you learn in school will probably be out of date within 10 years. I learned hand drafting. 3 - 4 years out AutoCAD. And more. Like who needs to understand patch panels today. Just assume youll see several generations of tech in a carer.


 *@BillConnerFASTC* and *@Quillons* ; Perhaps I missed Ms. Quillons point. I'm understanding you both to be essentially in agreement but let's begin by preparing for technology most likely to be encountered during your first summer's employment then increment up from there to whatever's most likely for your second summer's work. Optimistically upon graduation, you're prepared to deal with wherever the "bleeding edges" are at that point in the future. 
Possibly I've misinterpreted post #50*???* 
Toodleoo! 
Ron Hebbard


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## BillConnerFASTC

Well sure you learn what will prepare you for after your formal education. But much will change. You should learn to learn.


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## Jay Ashworth

I think we agree the trains left the station, Tim I just think we disagree on how fast the thing is moving - this is the United States of course.  

And I think Bill's projections and theater count estimates are in line with what I expected and based my opinion on.


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## Footer

I still have a telephone patch and 6k dimmers in use. Pro companies use these every day. Incandescent won't be dead until the HPL is dead. Any school that only teaches the newest stuff is destined to have students who won't be able to work. I had a person who couldn't replace a lamp in a 6" fresnel a few years back... this was someone with a degree from a good school. You need to know it all to compete in todays world.


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## RonHebbard

Footer said:


> I still have a telephone patch and 6k dimmers in use. Pro companies use these every day. Incandescent won't be dead until the HPL is dead. Any school that only teaches the newest stuff is destined to have students who won't be able to work. I had a person who couldn't replace a lamp in a 6" fresnel a few years back... this was someone with a degree from a good school. You need to know it all to compete in today's world.


 *@Footer* It's important to appreciate and utilize the subtle distinctions between 'knowing it all' Vs. being 'a know it all'. 
I'll descend from the podium and relinquish the lectern. 
Toodleoo! 
Ron Hebbard


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## MNicolai

By the way, it's worth pointing out that the used market for LED's is pretty robust and competitive with tungsten. If you don't mind dealing with the IP6 connectors, there's an almost endless supply of few-year-old D40XT's on ebay recycled out of Disney and cruise ships because the fixtures outlived the attractions and resellers don't know how to get rid of the low-demand XT's and XTI's.

I just did an eBay splurge and now have a couple C-stands in my living room with 21" Pearls lighting up artwork on my walls, CSPARDB's for ambient lighting, and a D40XT and an X7 in my home office. We'll ignore for a moment that my neighbors probably think I'm trippin' LSD after sunset. $500 Colorsource PAR DB's, $300-400 D40XT's, $60 Selador X7's (the original series that Rob Gerlach and Novella Smith built in Rob's garage before ETC bought them out). Scratch and dent but still in great condition and with a 30-day proof-of-life warranty. Not a bad deal for ~80% off retail price and all I've had to do is replace a gel clip, a couple fan grilles, and buy some lenses. Last week I saw an Element 2-6000 go for $1400.

Not everyone can buy used but in comparison, tungsten S4's for the longest time sold for almost the same price as new ones unless they had 575W caps. They were just about impervious to depreciation. If the current used LED market is a sign of things to come it won't be long before LED is ubiquitous.

Like I said before. Not sexy if you have to manage a commercial theater with 300 fixtures used 340 nights a year, but plenty good enough for all the places don't need any more fixtures than you can cram into a minivan.


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## macsound

TimMc said:


> Absolutely, but when lamps become Unobtainium, it's over. And from what we're seeing reported elsewhere on CB that's happening with certain types already.
> 
> Yeah, I don't see the community theater in my mom's hometown finding $10k to replace the console, dimmers and limited lighting they already own but sooner, rather than later, it's gonna happen.




Footer said:


> I still have a telephone patch and 6k dimmers in use. Pro companies use these every day. Incandescent won't be dead until the HPL is dead. Any school that only teaches the newest stuff is destined to have students who won't be able to work. I had a person who couldn't replace a lamp in a 6" fresnel a few years back... this was someone with a degree from a good school. You need to know it all to compete in todays world.



I've seen many corporate locations just starting the transition to Source 4WRD to begin upgrading their existing Source Fours. Their rationale is money.
They could care less how much power the lights draw or how hot the lights get. Ultimately they just don't want to comp the customer because their gobo burned out or pay a tech to replace lamps.
Also in tons of these corporate events, there's no time to configure DMX LEDs but if you're able to put 10 Source 4WRDs on one dimmer, you've saved labor on both ends.

I don't think conventional dimmers and S4s are going away until RDM becomes simple enough for the lowest wage union guy to program.
Permanent hangs and long running tours are a different story, but for corporate and community theatre, there is little training that will help DMX LEDs move forward.


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## TimMc

macsound said:


> I've seen many corporate locations just starting the transition to Source 4WRD to begin upgrading their existing Source Fours. Their rationale is money.
> They could care less how much power the lights draw or how hot the lights get. Ultimately they just don't want to comp the customer because their gobo burned out or pay a tech to replace lamps.
> Also in tons of these corporate events, there's no time to configure DMX LEDs but if you're able to put 10 Source 4WRDs on one dimmer, you've saved labor on both ends.
> 
> I don't think conventional dimmers and S4s are going away until RDM becomes simple enough for the lowest wage union guy to program.
> Permanent hangs and long running tours are a different story, but for corporate and community theatre, there is little training that will help DMX LEDs move forward.



I think we still have a rack with 12 channels of Colortran 6kW dimmers and a pre-Sensor ETC rack with 48 4kW dimmers. Neither have moved from their lonely corner of the shop in at least 2 years.

I've done the kind of lighting you mention and it's one of the reasons my primary skills are in audio and related fields.  Seriously, it's as valid today as it was 25 years ago, and we've come up with some ways to emulate those Olde Skool ways. 

Remember when nobody expected lights to.. to... move?


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## theatricalmatt

I think the pedagogy of lighting is fairly diverse. When you talk about "teaching incandescents," it really touches on several overlapping fields: There's color theory, as well as lighting design, which is fundamental to any serious study of lighting regardless of how it's generated. Then there's the technical aspect, how an incandescent does its thing versus how an LED source generates what we might perceive as the same caliber of light.

When I got started, we made lights out of coffee cans and lamp sockets -- horribly outdated now, but *really* hands on, and so *really* satisfying for many students. You get a little bit of that with a Source Four, but almost none of that with a Lustr -- there just aren't any bits that you can easily put hands on. I could conceive of m-a-y-b-e showing a highly interested student how to solder LEDs with a really cheap LED PAR, but there's absolutely no way I would risk a $2500 lighting fixture to an undergraduate. So the result is that I have students who learn some of the mechanics of focusing a light, but more time is devoted to lighting design theory than hands-on work.

The unfortunate side of that is that, the typical theater hierarchy (*one* designer with a crew of eight or more electricians) developed for a reason, and it's a hard mold to break out of! It's nice to have a small black box space with a permanent, all-LED rig, because students also get *really* into throwing up washes of really saturated color for some reason. Something really primal and satisfying about it.


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## Darin

I teach lighting and I absolutely teach incandescent. Outside of for-profit theatre and event lighting, the VAST majority of American theatres are mostly incandescent (and will be for some time).


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## gafftaper

I don't know of a single theater in Seattle... with the exception of a couple of horrible middle and elementary schools... that are all LED houses. My guess is the average professional theater's inventory in this area is maybe 70% incandescent and 30% LED. There are plenty of places with no LED's still. Yes the day is coming that we won't need to teach incandescent lighting, but it's still a generation away.


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## BillConnerFASTC

If you said in 1982 when AutoCAD version 1 was released that hand drafting would be not de around in a generation, most people would have laughed. Yet it was well on its way out in 10 years.

Things have a way of progressing faster than one imagines. 

And how long is a generation today anyways? Googling suggests near 30 years. I dont think youxll be able to buy new HPLs in 30 years. Pretty sure I wont be around to pay up if you can.


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## Darin

BillConnerFASTC said:


> If you said in 1982 when AutoCAD version 1 was released that hand drafting would be not de around in a generation, most people would have laughed. Yet it was well on its way out in 10 years.
> 
> Things have a way of progressing faster than one imagines.
> 
> And how long is a generation today anyways? Googling suggests near 30 years. I dont think youxll be able to buy new HPLs in 30 years. Pretty sure I wont be around to pay up if you can.



I still hand draft, so it's not totally dead!


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## SteveB

Darin said:


> I still hand draft, so it's not totally dead!



I haven’t seen a hand drafted anything in 15 years.

As well and I think the point of Justin Townsend is that the move to LED is happening much faster than anybody is expecting. Won’t be a generation.


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## RonHebbard

gafftaper said:


> I don't know of a single theater in Seattle... with the exception of a couple of horrible middle and elementary schools that are all LED houses. My guess is the average professional theater's inventory in this area is maybe 70% incandescent and 30% LED. There are plenty of places with no LED's still. Yes the day is coming that we won't need to teach incandescent lighting, but it's still a generation away.


 * @gafftaper* How do you suspect your area's remaining incandescent venues will deal with / afford to upgrade their existing inventory when replacement incandescent sources become unobtainium*?* I'd gamble demand and supply will prevail until there are no more suitable incandescent sources left standing.
Popular rumor has it that Source Four lamps may be the last incandescents standing and then _there'll be none._
I think we've played this game here before but, what the heck, *@DELO72* (and *@any other lamp manufacturers*) Care to comment / speculate / play the game*? *
This is clearly going to be like finding a new GZ34 / KT88 / 6L6 for your vacuum tube amplifiers and receivers, a vibrator for your car radio (No! Not for your significant other) new rolls for your player piano or new virgin cylinders for your early Edison recorder. [Mark my words; you heard it here first, or second, or fifty-fourth.) 
*EDIT:* Added an inadvertently missed closing bracket. 
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard


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## Darin

If HPL's go away (unlikely, I'll get to that in a moment) but LED ellipsoidals don't come down in price, then the lighting manufacturers are going to effectively put hundreds of theatres out of business by forcing them to die a slow death. 

But I don't see HPL's going away for a very long time. There are hundreds of thousands of Source 4 fixtures out there that work perfectly well. Lamp manufacturers would be silly to stop serving that market.


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## RonHebbard

BillConnerFASTC said:


> If you said in 1982 when AutoCAD version 1 was released that hand drafting would not be around in a generation, most people would have laughed. Yet it was well on its way out in 10 years.
> 
> Things have a way of progressing faster than one imagines.
> 
> And how long is a generation today anyways*?* Googling suggests near 30 years. I don't think you'll be able to buy new HPL's in 30 years.
> *Pretty sure I wont be around to pay up if you can.*


 *@BillConnerFASTC* At the sprightly age of 67, don't bet on not being around at 97; here in my "Retirement home with assisted living" we have many residents in their nineties, several gentleman 93, 94 and 95. Currently, our eldest resident is a lady who attained 98 years of age this past February 1st. 
This afternoon, each and every one of us were rousted for a full building evacuation fire drill to satisfy the decree of our local fire fighters. Each and every month, one or two floors of our four story building have to evacuate for a fire drill. Once or twice annually we evacuate the entire building with two representatives from the Hamilton, Ontario fire department on hand to record the time from the sounding of the bells 'til the last person exits the building, including our cooks, maintenance, PSW's and management. Fortunately today the rain let up and it was 51 degrees (F) at the time of the drill. During my penance here, we've had two full evacuations in the rain and one in the midst of a below freezing winter with 5" of snow and ice on the ground and snow still steadily falling. The snow was steadier than many of my fellow inmates, don't bet on not attaining 97, you may not remember your name but you'll likely still be able to hide your own Easter eggs. 
BTW; this afternoon's exodus occurred in six (6) minutes; not too shabby for a bunch of old codgers who are not permitted to ride our 'vator during a fire or fire drill. 
*EDIT:* Added an inadvertently omitted comma. 
Toodleoo! 
Ron Hebbard


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## RonHebbard

Darin said:


> If HPL's go away (unlikely, I'll get to that in a moment) but LED ellipsoidals don't come down in price, then the lighting manufacturers are going to effectively put hundreds of theatres out of business by forcing them to die a slow death.
> 
> But I don't see HPL's going away for a very long time. There are hundreds of thousands of Source 4 fixtures out there that work perfectly well. Lamp manufacturers would be silly to stop serving that market.


 *@Darin @BillConnerFASTC* and *@DELO72* How many "hundreds of thousands of" drafting pencils, erasing shields, set squares and straight edges ( not to mention French curves.) do you think were in regular use as recently as 1982 as Mr. Conner posted*?* 
Toodleoo! 
Ron Hebbard


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## Darin

That's not an apt comparison, as all of the things you mentioned can be used in other applications. Conversely, discontinuing the manufacturing/sales of HPL lamps will (eventually) render Source 4's into fancy doorstops.

If the lighting industry thinks that every theatre company with $50,000 annual budgets will magically raise the money to convert all of their fixtures to LED, they have a big surprise coming


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## DELO72

Darin said:


> But I don't see HPL's going away for a very long time. There are hundreds of thousands of Source 4 fixtures out there that work perfectly well. Lamp manufacturers would be silly to stop serving that market.



Wrong. Over 5 Million Source Fours. Not “hundreds of thousands”. Halogen lamps aren’t going anywhere for a long time. Our global sales of halogen lamps last year was up from the year before.


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## Darin

Darin said:


> Wrong. Over 5 Million Source Fours. Not “hundreds of thousands”. Halogen lamps aren’t going anywhere for a long time. Our global sales of halogen lamps last year was up from the year before.



I stand corrected, as you make my point even stronger. The lamp manufacturers aren't abandoning that customer base


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## derekleffew

DELO72 said:


> Wrong. Over 5 Million Source Fours.


From http://www.etcconnect.com/About/News/25-Years-of-the-ETC-Source-Four-Fixture.aspx :

> Since launching at LDI in 1992, ETC has shipped nearly 3.8 million Source Four fixtures.


Although the page is not dated, since it's celebrating the 25th anniversary of a product launched in 1992, my Scooby detective skills tell me it's as of 2017.

BUT, and it's a big butt, there HAS to be more than four million PAR64 cans/fixtures out there, and those lamps, well...
https://www.controlbooth.com/threads/large-par-46-56-64-lamps.45336/

Never say never about nothin'.
.


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## TimMc

derekleffew said:


> From http://www.etcconnect.com/About/News/25-Years-of-the-ETC-Source-Four-Fixture.aspx :
> Although the page is not dated, since it's celebrating the 25th anniversary of a product launched in 1992, my Scooby detective skills tell me it's as of 2017.
> 
> BUT, and it's a big butt, there HAS to be more than four million PAR64 cans/fixtures out there, and those lamps, well...
> https://www.controlbooth.com/threads/large-par-46-56-64-lamps.45336/
> 
> Never say never about nothin'.
> .


It's exactly the sealed beam lamp issue that was the coffin nail for me. We just scrapped 240 cans of the 360 fixture PAR rigs we had, kept half the 6-bars and are mounting LED fixtures on them. The PRT is needed for span length, but we need only to half load the truss. That leaves room for some other toys... 

But we scrapped the rig because we had ZERO requests for it in the last 3 years and now that lamps are single-sourced, seeing the HPL in the rear view mirrow will not surprise me, it's only a question of when. Like that rack of 6kW dimmers I mentioned up thread - yeah, I remember when we lit big ballrooms or building exteriors for corpy gigs, but that's mostly going to IP-rated LED fixtures outdoors and the planners like being able to make color changes without lifts and ladders. The old dimmers will be the next things out of our shop.

I'm as nostalgic as the rest of you, and while younger than Ron H I too was trained on some really ancient luminaries with a Rosco GEL swatch book (the Roscolene and Roscolar was more money than students could afford) in my pocket. I learned to light for photography with tungsten, vacuum and glass. I learned photography with silver emulsions and chemistry stuff, too. Now I doubt you can buy real gel, lights are now solid state and photography as I experienced it mostly no longer exists. Stuff changes. We don't have to like it but we do need a plan to deal with those changes.


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## RonHebbard

TimMc said:


> It's exactly the sealed beam lamp issue that was the coffin nail for me. We just scrapped 240 cans of the 360 fixture PAR rigs we had, kept half the 6-bars and are mounting LED fixtures on them. The PRT is needed for span length, but we need only to half load the truss. That leaves room for some other toys...
> 
> But we scrapped the rig because we had ZERO requests for it in the last 3 years and now that lamps are single-sourced, seeing the HPL in the rear view mirrow will not surprise me, it's only a question of when. Like that rack of 6kW dimmers I mentioned up thread - yeah, I remember when we lit big ballrooms or building exteriors for corpy gigs, but that's mostly going to IP-rated LED fixtures outdoors and the planners like being able to make color changes without lifts and ladders. The old dimmers will be the next things out of our shop.
> 
> I'm as nostalgic as the rest of you, and while younger than Ron H I too was trained on some really ancient luminaries with a Rosco GEL swatch book (the Roscolene and Roscolar was more money than students could afford) in my pocket. I learned to light for photography with tungsten, vacuum and glass. I learned photography with silver emulsions and chemistry stuff, too. Now I doubt you can buy real gel, lights are now solid state and photography as I experienced it mostly no longer exists. Stuff changes. We don't have to like it but we do need a plan to deal with those changes.


 *@TimMc* Ah g'wan; a Yammie PM2K equipped with a full load of REAL line level input and output transformers was the last truly great console offered for sale; with the possible exception of a few of the custom built McCurdy's, Ward Beck's and Paragon's. Those 'welter weight' PM3K's had NOTHING on their fathers.
Know when you're being ragged. 
Toodleoo! 
Ron Hebbard


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## gafftaper

Several things to point out here:

1) The critical factor here is good LED fixtures are far too expensive for most places to afford to just outright replace their inventory tomorrow. It would cost somewhere around $250,000 for me to replace everything with LED when you include the needed upgrades to non-dim power, a new light board, a lot more DMX universes and data distribution. Theater's just don't have that much money. Instead we are slowly adding them in a little at a time. LED Cyc Lights. LED side lights, LED Down Lights, Then go with the ETC "Layers of Light" approach and pair one LED fixture with each area of incandescent light. It's going to change, but it's very slow. The change from hand drafting to CAD was something that cost what a thousand bucks? LED's are far more expensive and will therefore take a lot longer to do.

2) There are a LOT of theaters out there who upgrade their gear based on the change they find in the seats. These are the kinds of places most young technicians start working at. So 5 or 10 years from now the big boys will have ton's of LED fixtures, but the places you need to work at to begin your career will still be trying to keep their color scrollers going a few more years. If colleges aren't teaching incandescent lighting design, it's going to be really hard to get work fresh out of college.

3) There were several comments that make it sound like the lighting manufacturers are pushing everyone to go LED. While they know we all want LED, I'm quite sure ETC is perfectly happy to continue to sell us a couple more million Source Fours in the years to come. It's energy regulations and our own desires to just have the coolest new toys that are pushing the change. The death of the PAR lamp is mostly about a lack of demand for them. PARS were the first thing to be flat our replaced for reasons I will go point out below, but Source Four Ellipsoidals will take a MUCH longer time to go away. How many of you have a few old non-axial Altman 360Q's made in the 70's or 80's still kicking around in your inventory? It's going to be the same way for all those S4's. 

4) Why were PAR's the first thing to go? Because PAR LED's are the cheapest and easiest upgrade to do. You can get a pretty decent LED PAR for what $300. LED Ellipsoidals are 4 times that in price. Plus the optics are critical on an Elipsoidal. Any old LED ellipsoidal will not due. But a PAR's have always been about dumping a lot of color on stage cheap. $300 LED PAR is going to be okay, if you can get your budget up around $500 you are going to get a really good one. Finally PAR's were always done with lots of fixtures in banks of repeating colors so you could get just the right mix of RGB... One LED PAR replaces three or more Incandescents in a rig, so they are easier to transport and cheaper on the load of the whole show. It's the most logical replacement to do.


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## BillConnerFASTC

Gafftaper - two counterpoints to consider.

I believe that much - the majority - of new lighting equipment sold is to new schools, not existing schools and other. As I have noted on numerous occasions, in new build, now it's a wash in cost between all LED and all incandescent, with LED becoming less expensive soon. 

To your drafting analogy, you compare one seat to a whole theatre, and in 1982, when I went cad, it was more like $5000/seat - $10,000 for 2 of us in an office - $1500/liscense, $2500/desktop, $2000 for a plotter. 

There are not many theatres - that do much theatre - that don't get major work in 25 - 30 years - so a generation - and it's begun.


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## Darin

I disagree that a new lighting installation is a wash between LED and incandescent. A standard Source 4 incandescent fixture runs around $400. A 4WRD retrofit kit alone is $600 (or $1000 with a full fixture). The difference between 50 Source 4 incadescent fixtures vs 50 Source 4 LED fixtures is 250%. That goes up another 250% if you go with the LUSTR2 series.

If lighting companies are outfitting new theatre/school installations with 100% LED wash fixtures, they are doing a great disservice to those spaces in terms of design and control


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## sk8rsdad

Darin, the cost comparison needs to include more than the fixture cost. The installation cost for the infrastructure to dim an incandescent fixture including beefier electrical service, bigger HVAC, dimmer rack, wiring, etc.) along with the operating expense (lamps, labour, service intervals, etc.) brings the total cost of ownership at least to par.

It's better these days to wire up a theatre with a lot of switched power and data and use portable dimming when and where it is needed.


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## Darin

I didn't assume that the argument was about a ground-up new space vs. fitting an existing space with new fixtures. That said, the % of brand new school/theatre installations vs. the number of existing spaces using incadescent fixtures is very small


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## MNicolai

Darin said:


> If lighting companies are outfitting new theatre/school installations with 100% LED wash fixtures, they are doing a great disservice to those spaces in terms of design and control



Yeah, that ship has sailed on new construction projects.

As @sk8rsdad pointed out, lots of other costs to consider in terms of electrical wiring, conduit, panelboards, emergency transfer switches, dimmers, multicable, etc. Sure, it can be more expensive if you go with Series 2 everywhere all the time, but for schools they can get by with Colorsource Spots/PARS just fine at a lower price point. The Chauvet Pro stuff of the same caliber and cheaper yet.


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## Darin

I can't imagine walking into a space and designing a full length play or musical with nothing but wash units. What a nightmare


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## TimMc

I think we're getting back into the weeds again.

Technologies are changing (whether they are advancing depends on ones place in the chain and any Luddite tendencies) and if YOU are a teacher, instructor or professor you need to know how you're gonna be teaching the new stuff.

There is a vast, physics-based reason filtered tungsten light looks different from the colors created by LEDs. If you can't grok that reason and figure out how to teach COLORATION because of that difference, as an educator you are failing in your profession.

A designer's job is to make pretty pictures (pretty being a relative term). If a designer can't do that with the tools available to him/her/them, so be it. The designer will have a limited client base and will be replaced, eventually, by someone who can do the work needed.

There seems to be a huge disconnect between reality and nostalgia. In my shop the boss kind of assumed that there would continue to be a place for analogue audio consoles - and he was right if you're looking at 16 inputs or less - but the market for large frame analogue desks is almost zip, zero, nada. I think I saw my last Cadac J about 3 years ago and the show's mixerperson told me the original sound designer was reworking the design for a more compact digital console. On the music concert tours I see an analogue desk about once a year. The rest are mostly Midas, Avid, Yamaha, and DigiCo binary number machines.

So tell me again about those manual weaving looms, buggy whips and PM4000s.


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## Darin

To be clear, I absolutely teach both incadescent and LED. My university owns both. What I'm saying is that it is very unlikely that we will be full LED anytime soon, and that can be said for every single professional theatre I work in.


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## MNicolai

Darin said:


> I can't imagine walking into a space and designing a full length play or musical with nothing but wash units. What a nightmare



Colorsource Spots are ellipsoidals. They're just RGBL instead of X7. Of course, that's part of the reason this topic is so foggy. Prior to LED's we were pampered by 20-30 years of using basically the same handful of lights. Now the model numbers change every couple years and many fixtures get released in several versions. All the turnover makes it hard to keep everything speaking the same language.


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## Darin

ColorSource Spots are 400% more expensive than incadescent fixtures. Unless you can convince me that each incandescent fixture ($400/each) requires an additonal $1200 of infrastructure (dimming, etc.), then the prices are not yet comparable


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## MNicolai

It's not that hard to make up the difference. At a FOH catwalk for a rep plot if you would've ordinarily had 40 fixtures in pairs of warm and cool, now you can do that with 20 that can mix the full spectrum. To be conservative, let's call it 28 so you have a little more overlap as LED's in white aren't as bright as tungsten lamps. All those wash fixtures over the stage where you would've had 3 rows of down wash zones, 5 across, warm/cool each or maybe even warm/warmer/cool, now you can do with 7 zones across, a single LED wash fixture per zone. That takes 30-45 fixtures and reduces them down to 21.

The average 750-seat theater used to have a 800/3ph feeder with sizable transformer, split out into (3) 96-circuit Sensor racks, approximately 2 for stage lights and the third for house/lobby lighting. In house lighting LED retrofits, I've seen that entire third rack get knocked down to 5-6 circuits. The rest of the D20's might as well be air filter modules.

Overall, what used to 3 racks can be handled with a single 48-circuit relay panel, maybe 200A/3ph depending on the application, can handle both the house and stage lighting. All those custom connector strips with 2-3 multiconductor cables feeding them turn into a single multicable and a couple DMX/CAT6 drops.

I don't have time to do all the math today on the actual tally of costs, but the savings are there in new construction projects.


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## Darin

Again, that only applies to brand new buildings, which accounts for a very small % of lighting installs. For the vast majority of theatres and schools, all of that infrastructure is a sunk cost, and what they face instead is having to replace an inventory of incadescents with fixtures that cost over 4x more (and the incandescents work just fine, only now [theoretically] lamps are no longer available for them). Yes, you're right, the replacement doesn't have to be 1-to-1, as one fixture will do the job of several, but it is still a cost that most not-for-profits simply can't afford


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## gafftaper

Darin said:


> Again, that only applies to brand new buildings, which accounts for a very small % of lighting installs. For the vast majority of theatres and schools, all of that infrastructure is a sunk cost, and what they face instead is having to replace an inventory of incadescents with fixtures that cost over 4x more (and the incandescents work just fine, only now [theoretically] lamps are no longer available for them). Yes, you're right, the replacement doesn't have to be 1-to-1, as one fixture will do the job of several, but it is still a cost that most not-for-profits simply can't afford



I think you missed a couple of key sentences on the last page in the beginning of this side discussion. 

BillConnerFASTC said:


> I believe that much - the majority - of new lighting equipment sold is to new schools, not existing schools and other. As I have noted on numerous occasions, in new build, now it's a wash in cost between all LED and all incandescent, with LED becoming less expensive soon.



In general I think you are agreeing with Bill and Mike you just are coming at that point from very different directions. They are in the business of designing and outfitting new theaters so they see the big money spent every day. You on the other hand clearly work in the trenches where everyone dreams of being able to get LED Cyc lights. Upgrades are slow and expensive.


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## TimMc

That light at the end of the tunnel? It's the train of progress. The only question is how fast is the train moving.


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## BillConnerFASTC

Darin said:


> I didn't assume that the argument was about a ground-up new space vs. fitting an existing space with new fixtures. That said, the % of brand new school/theatre installations vs. the number of existing spaces using incadescent fixtures is very small


As noted, in new build LED is same coat or less than incandescent, and I suspect the majority of lighting sales is LED to new build projects. You only have to look at the near unavailability of new incandescents to get that. The cost of labor and infrastructure for incandescent is 3 to 4 times that of LED. I've been averaging 6 or more new builds a year for several years and am certain. And if in each of those is 75-100 fixtures more or less. How many are existing schools buying? Maybe 1 of every 10 schools buys a dozen fixtures? 

And it's safer.

Sorry, I posted this before seeing many more posts on next page. But yes, the infrastructure for incandescent is several times the cost of the fixtures, so quite easy to see LED is less expensive in new build.


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## Darin

BillConnerFASTC said:


> As noted, in new build LED is same coat or less than incandescent, and I suspect the majority of lighting sales is LED to new build projects. You only have to look at the near unavailability of new incandescents to get that. The cost of labor and infrastructure for incandescent is 3 to 4 times that of LED. I've been averaging 6 or more new builds a year for several years and am certain. And if in each of those is 75-100 fixtures more or less. How many are existing schools buying? Maybe 1 of every 10 schools buys a dozen fixtures?
> 
> And it's safer.
> 
> Sorry, I posted this before seeing many more posts on next page. But yes, the infrastructure for incandescent is several times the cost of the fixtures, so quite easy to see LED is less expensive in new build.



We agree on new builds. That doesn't address the majority of spaces that are retrofitting with existing infrastructure (and the cost to not only upgrade to LED, but install AC, data runs, etc.)


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## BillConnerFASTC

I don't know what you mean 

Darin said:


> That doesn't address the majority of spaces that are retrofitting


. I was simply stating that in new build LED makes sense. As I have stated before changing over makes no economic sense. Just having feeders, dimmer space, HVAC, and many branch circuits in place tips it way over to incandescent.

High schools or rather the construction there of are the biggest buyers of entertainment lighting. They end to replace their buildings every 50-75 years with one or maybe two major renovations during the life if the building. The funding are bonds with very little between bond cycles. 35,000 to 40,000 high schools in US, add in maybe another 4000 colleges. Professional, road, churches, theme parks, and sound stages maybe all together 1000. Those several hundred new schools each year are the bread and butter of entertainment technology sales. Just facts. Not addressing anything. Not saying right or wrong.


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## SteveB

I think one of the driving forces to an all LED rig might end up being the marginally funded performance spaces whose lighting infrastructure is always minimally able to support a large’ish incandescent system.

These are the spaces where the LD’s are getting as many LED’s as possible if only as there’s just insufficient power to bring in the incandescent gear needed for the design. With many spaces renting, the LD’s are screaming to go partial or high content LED. If nothing else it allows greater creativity in color choices from a smaller rig, that In turn makes the design process easier.


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## BillConnerFASTC

Good point Steve. Stated from a different view, one of the pluses of LED in new build is that you get most of what you pay for. Design a $300,000 incandescent system and only buy 2/3 initially, the infrastructure will over whelmed the inventory so you end up with maybe a third of the fixtures. With LED, infrastructure is proportionally much smaller so you end up much closer to 2/3 of the actually lighting.


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## macsound

Thought I'd revive this thread because I just got back from Disneyland. Throughout the park along the parade route, there are light towers that previously had 8 Pars, 4 in alternating warm-cool and 4 with scrollers. 
During a parade, they were commonly lit and colors chosen based on theme. So usually just a general wash of color. If there was a point in the parade that felt cooler, maybe warm lights would dim and scrollers change color.
See the lights here

Now, many locations are being replaced with LEDs but those areas are directly next to towers that are still incandescent and the difference is terrible. In my mind, an exact result of someone who doesn't understand how LEDs make color. They probably looked at the spec of the old lights, saw it was R04 and plopped it in the Ion. But looking at people walk through the light, it's not the same. 

Thought I had a photo of someone walking between the two but now of course, I can't find it.


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## tjrobb

Coming out of the weeds here, but safety played a part in our house light LED upgrade. Our theatre was built in 1928. To relamp certain house fixtures you had to walk on the 2" thick steel-and-concrete-plaster ceiling, pull the can out of the ceiling (don't ask), change the lamp, then walk back across the ceiling. Of course, one fixture required a trip down a 6' ancient hand-made ladder (possibly original to the building), with the ladder and fixture adjacent to a 40' high void space... they'd never find your body.
Needless to say, once we found a PAR that could throw well and dim properly we were eager to upgrade. 
Now back to your thread.


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