# Overkill?



## TassieBogan (Jan 17, 2005)

Our college is doing a production of Les Miserables in mid march. Obviously for a show of this magnitude, there is no such thing as a small setup. Currently, we're going to be using 25 radio mics, at least 4 shotguns, and then we have to mic up the orchestra. For this I was planning on getting a Midas Verona 400, a 40 channel mixer with 8 aux busses, 8 matrixs, and 8 sub-mixes. 
But would the better option be to get a smaller Midas Venice 320 and sort of Daisy Chain it with our existing 24 Channel studiomaster which has shite sound quality and dodgy everything?

The Verona is $1000 per week to hire, wheras the Venice is $720, from the Tasmanian sound and lighting company Production Works. http://www.productionworks.com.au/

Opinions?


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## SketchyCroftPpl (Jan 17, 2005)

Well I guess one big question is how much do you have to spend and how much do you care about the sound quality? I mean if its fine to have stuff sound not so hot and everything and its not going to be much way more complicated to daisychain them then you might wanna save 300 bucks for something else, or see how much just a totally new soundboard would be to buy and see if you can get the TD to spring for it not just for this show but all the ones after. If you really want it to sound great though and everything then it might be worth it for you to spend the extra 300 and have the quality ... how many weeks would you have to be renting it for? Just one?
~Nick


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## SketchyCroftPpl (Jan 17, 2005)

Well I guess one big question is how much do you have to spend and how much do you care about the sound quality? I mean if its fine to have stuff sound not so hot and everything and its not going to be much way more complicated to daisychain them then you might wanna save 300 bucks for something else, or see how much just a totally new soundboard would be to buy and see if you can get the TD to spring for it not just for this show but all the ones after. If you really want it to sound great though and everything then it might be worth it for you to spend the extra 300 and have the quality ... how many weeks would you have to be renting it for? Just one?
~Nick


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## SketchyCroftPpl (Jan 17, 2005)

Sorry I don't know why it posted that twice, it hung for a moment but then went though fine. Sorry
~Nick


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## blsmn (Jan 17, 2005)

I guess the answer to the question would depend on just what exactly you mean by overkill. For what you are doing, 40 channels will definitely not be overkill - when you take a look at what you are trying to accomplish 40 channels may just barely be enough if not too few. As far as my personal preference I would prefer to have everything on one console rather than daisy chaining two together - especially given the stated condition of the studiomater you have. Now, is it worth renting a Verona if the rest of your sound system is not up to snuff? That is another variable - you did not mention what type of amps, processing, speakers, outboard gear you are using. If they are as suspect as the studiomaster they will definitely not compliment a higher end board like the Verona.

Just a suggestion here though - if you are using that many radio mics, it will be well worth it for you to rent a console that has the capability of mute scenes. I know the Verona has mute groups but I'm not sure it has mute scenes. Mute scenes will allow you to concentrate on the actual sound of the show without having to worry about which mics need to be muted or unmuted for the upcoming scene change. Need to mute mics 1,2,3,7,9,11, and 15 and unmute mics 5,6,8,10, 20 and 21? Program that in as a mute scene and when the time comes push one button and it happens. It will make your life and experience much happier, and take away having to scramble to make sure everything happens in a professional manner with no accidental off-stage utterances.


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## jedijeffp (Jan 17, 2005)

My $0.02 US (and then some)

Radio Microphones: I assume this means wireless lavalier style mics. 
You note you're using 25 of them. Les Miz has 9 primary characters:
Jean Valjean
Javert
Fantine
Marius 
Enjolras
Eponine / Child Eponine 
Cosette / Child Cosette
Madame Thénardier 
Gavroche
I could see utilizing another 5 or 6 to be passed around among supporting
cast, but 25 total seems like a lot. What other characters are getting
wireless mics? Which scene has the most of those characters in it
simultaneously? Or which 2 scenes if there is a fast scene change 
between them? Reducing this number will simplify frequency selection
and reduce the number of input channels required.

Mixer: Assuming you do need all 25 wireless mics, a 24 channel mixer isn't going to
work. So you do need something in addition to the studiomaster. How long were you
planning on renting for? I'm not familiar with the Midas brand of mixers, but
a Mackie SR32*4 runs less than $2,000 US (the 8 bus 32*8 is about $4,000 US). 
This has a total of 28 mono inputs which is enough to handle your 25 wireless mics. 
If you can cut down to 24 wireless mics, you can run both the wireless and shotgun 
mics on this mixer. Whether you plug the output of this into a channel on the 
Studiomaster, or connect this to your mains and run the output of the studiomaster 
into one of the stereo channel strips on the Mackie is your choice
based on ease of use and how the orchestra will be miced.

Orchestra microphones: This depends on the size of the orchestra, and the size of
the orchestra pit area. For a very small pit orchestra, 1 mic per instrument may be 
appropriate to deliver a bigger sound. For more instruments divide them into logical
sections and mic the sections as a group. Then provide "solo" mics for instrumentalists
who have solos. Depending on available mics and channels you can use 1 "solo" mic per
instrumental section miced, or 1 solo mic per geographic section of the orchestra pit
with sound techs available in the pit to help with cues and mic positioning.


That's a lot said to really mean this. Drive the requirements from the inputs to the outputs. Work with the director to determine how many wireless mics are needed, and how many are a nice to have. Attend the rehearsal when the actors do their blocking. This will give you an idea on how to use area mics when characters will be grouped in one area. Talk to the music director to find out how large of a pit orchestra is being used, and how many soloists there will be. Use this information to pull together your total inputs and subgroups. Leave a stereo channel available to play a CD for background music while people are taking their seats and during intermission. Based on these inputs and subgroups you'll be able to determine the mixer configuration needed for this performance. Price out both cost of rental and cost of purchase. Document it all. If you have it all planned out on paper it will be easier to justify cost as well as to quantify what will be lost if something is changed.

Good Luck,
Jeff

P.S. I'm not a Mackie salesperson. Mackie is a board brand I am familiar with and was comfortable with as an example in this situation. Any good quality board can be substituted in the above.


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## The_Guest (Jan 17, 2005)

Three words: Live Is Dangerious. In theater apps I always try to stay away from daisy chaining consoles, esepecially if I'm running lavs on both consoles. In a band situation its a little easier to figure out balanced levels. But it's nice to have a familar gain structure on one console. I had the decesion to either expand a 24ch mackie w/a side car this summer, but I decided not to because it was theater. It's way too formal and consistent demanding environment to risk. If you say this show is going to be big, get the Verona. And the larger faders will come in handy dealing with those 25 lavs and the pit. Sounds like you'll have a lot of open mics, that extra $300 will buy you a stress free mixing environment. If you can afford the Midas, get it, premium preamp, the EQ is just fantastc. It's so surgical, yet musical at same time. It cuts through anything. There is a reason why the Midas costs more, they're amazing consoles. Forgot the mackie, you'll make your life so much easier with the Midas.


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## scarlco (Jan 17, 2005)

We use two Yamaha PM3500's - one is the main board, with all our RF's and sound effects. The other is setup as a sidecar, and holds the orchestra and house music / God mic's / prerecorded anouncements. We patch the sidecar via it's VCA outs to the VCA in's on the main board, which has proven to be pretty stable. I wouldn't want to have actor mics on both boards, though. Could get confusing. But the orchestra doesn't really change throughout the show. Basically, the levels on the sidecar are pretty much static, and the work is done on the main board,


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## Inaki2 (Jan 17, 2005)

Consider the Les Miz has 2 CADAC consoles totalling 65 inputs or so, a Yamaha O3D for FX returns and a small CADAC unit for SIM, Stage Manager and other miscelaneous inputs.
As previously mentioned, daisy chaining is not a good idea. Besides the danger of connections, etc, when you get into different brands and qualities you may get impedances issues, leading to noise. MIDAS is really awesome, I'd use the Verona, I'm really pleased with that console. I'm using a Venice in like 8 hours. Nice board, but if you look at it, its more aimed for the small club setup. It takes a bit of fidging to use it in a musical situation, especially the Aux section.
You could always just rent an XL4


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## Inaki2 (Jan 17, 2005)

http://www.inakirosenberg.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=2&pos=3

MIDAS Legend and me...


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## SketchyCroftPpl (Jan 17, 2005)

Complicated ....
So do you think you know which one your going to use?
~Nick


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## avkid (Jan 17, 2005)

We did Les Misrables with 15 mics last year,it can be done with actors sharing mics(if supervised)


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## SketchyCroftPpl (Jan 17, 2005)

HA HA yes make sure to remember the "if Supervised part"
~Nick


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## Andy_Leviss (Jan 17, 2005)

If it were a decent console, submixing (the technical term for what you describe as "daisy-chaining") can work well, and is a lot more common than you'd think. A number of shows, including Broadway shows/tours, will have a submixer (often referred to as a sidecar) for some/all of the orchestra inputs, which mixes down to, say, a stereo pair to send to the primary console, which then adds that in to the effects, vocal mics, and other inputs you may have.

Yes, it does require more care, since there's that many more points of failure, but it's not at all uncommon or unreasonable. 

That said, if the console you'd be using as one of the two sounds that bad, you're probably better off just going for the larger console, if you've got the budget for it. If not, I think others may be on the right track in suggesting that you may want to try to trim that money from somewhere else, such as number of mics, rather than paying the price with a bad sounding console.

Hope this helps,
Andy


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## SuperCow (Jan 17, 2005)

That is a *huge* console!


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## scarlco (Jan 17, 2005)

Huge? Our Yamaha PM3500's are both 52 channels... and we're constantly trying to find empty channels. Of course, we do have 36 RF's (40 alltogether, but 4 are out for service) and a full orchestral section.

I remember this one time, our LD came up to me while I was mixing during rehersals and told me how much he would dread running sound here. It gets a bit complex....


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## TassieBogan (Jan 17, 2005)

OK, maybe I should have been a little more specific: we have REnkus heins speakers with 2 15" mids horns and dual 18" subbies, two T221M EVI foldbacks, (I was also going to fly two sx300's from the gantrys to add some extra fill) 

Our amps are old, but fairly noiseless and they do the job. There is also a dodgy old crossover, but we should be able to get a Klark Teknic digital 5-way.

EQ wise we've got a 31 band stereo ultragraph pro and a digital Ultracurve pro with built in automatic feedback destroyer for FOH. We'll also hire a Klark Teknic DN360.

At the moment i'm leaning toward the Verona, simply because of it's ease of use, the massive improvement in sound quality and incredible versatility.

Thanks for all the feedback! 8O


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## The_Guest (Jan 17, 2005)

Andy_Leviss said:


> If it were a decent console, submixing (the technical term for what you describe as "daisy-chaining") can work well, and is a lot more common than you'd think. A number of shows, including Broadway shows/tours, will have a submixer (often referred to as a sidecar) for some/all of the orchestra inputs, which mixes down to, say, a stereo pair to send to the primary console, which then adds that in to the effects, vocal mics, and other inputs you may have.
> 
> Yes, it does require more care, since there's that many more points of failure, but it's not at all uncommon or unreasonable.
> 
> ...



While it is fairly common to daisy chain. In the professional environment, it's more common to have a matrix mixer in which muiltiple consoles are connected to. If you have a varible set of speakers including effect speakers, monitors, and a sophisiticated main system, it makes it impossible for the slave consoles to take advantage of those. That's why it's more common to see a master matrix mixer to share the outputs. These are often used at large festivals where the main PA is shared and multiple bands each have their own engineer and equipment. The most common one I see people use these days is the XL88...

http://www.midasconsoles.com/xl88.htm


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## Andy_Leviss (Jan 17, 2005)

There's no such thing as a 5-way crossover. 5-band parametric EQ, perhaps? Completely different beasts.

Crossovers come in either 2-way or 3-way flavors (low/high or low/mid/high).

--A


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## Andy_Leviss (Jan 17, 2005)

Jeff,
Yes and no. It's impossible for a submixer (let's use the correct terms here) to distinctly address a specific input to a specific output on the main console, beyond possible l/r panning, but that stereo or mono submix it produces can be routed just as any other normal input would be. If you need further routing, of course, putting those inputs into a matrix would be the way to go.

In theatrical usage, however, it is the rare exception to need that sort of routing on the instruments that would be in a band submix. Not to say it doesn't happen, but it's rare.

Not to mention that the XL88 is only an 8x8 matrix, which doesn't give you much room for significantly more routing than feeding into a primary console does, if it's a console appropriate for this sort of use. Even some of the lower cost Allen and Heath consoles have comparable matrices built right in, which feeding bus outputs from the main console into an outboard matrix to mix with the submixer outputs gives you no significant advantage over, unless you're already out of inputs on the main console (although then you have to factor the costs of renting the matrix with the costs of a larger console, etc., so the whole thing is a balancing act).

Also, with the flexible routing options available in the consoles typically used on major Broadway shows (be they custom-configured Cadac analog consoles or the new but more and more common digital consoles like the Yamaha PM1D and DiGiCo D5), the need for an outboard matrix is often entirely negated. Then again, on consoles of those scale, submixers are often unnecessary, although you very, very frequently see multiple Cadacs on a show.

Also, many consoles have functions built in for linking multiples together so that each console can access all the buses of the primary console. I know that the 02R can do this, I seem to recall some of analog Yamahas doing this, and I even think some Allen and Heaths can do this, on the low end of the scale. 

Matrixes are commonly used, of course, from the XL88 mentioned to Richmond Sound's AudioBox to Cadac's new digital matrix, for all sorts of complex routing, but even then it's more often than not only going to get a stereo (at most) feed of the orchestra mix. 

You have to remember that theatre can be an even more complex beast than concerts; while both may have main stacks, center clusters, delays, and front or downfills, on a concert generally all the sound goes through all the speakers. 

In theatre, however, things get much more broken down, with orchestra often in the main stacks or main and center only, vocals only in the center and front fills, and varying mixes of both in the delays depending on the venue, all in an attempt to balance out the pit and the onstage vocals and to keep the vocals imaging to the stage.

Getting back to the specific situation at hand, however, which is not a large scale musical or tour, if he hadn't specifically mentioned that the house console sounded awful, I'd be hard pressed not to recommend submixing the orchestra on one and feeding it into a channel of the main console.

--Andy


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## scarlco (Jan 18, 2005)

Well put, Andy. I wish the sound designers who preceded me at my venue had thought of the "Left Center Right" configuration (where left and right are orch, and center is vocals). Our budget is currently limited, and I'm having a hard time trying to get that past the producers. When myself and my partner took over the design, the theatre's biggest complaint was sound issues. We've gotten a great deal better - props to Jon, my associate and house engineer - but the LCR setup would be so nice. Not enough Apogees to spread around, tho. :roll:


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## Inaki2 (Jan 18, 2005)

A lot of sidecars also have dedicated bus outputs and inputs so you can also link the groups, etc, so essentially you can "daisy-chain" consoles and have 2 work as one, one being a slave of the other. MIDAS boards (I doubt the Verona has it though) have multipins for this, as well as something called CAN (Console Area Network) to pass on Mutes, VCAs and automation between them. This is all too much into big consoles like the one in my pic.


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## freshmantech (Jan 18, 2005)

*yay verona...:-( $$*

While the verona is awesome and will do everything you need and then some, is it really worth that price for your show. Again, as was stated above, I have had very bad luck using sidecar mixers for anything other than a pit orchestra mix. I personally would recomend a mackie large format board or a sound craft - the GB-4 comes in a 44 (?) and 52 ch set-up and sounds decent for a much lower price than the verona. Again, it is how much money you have. Finally, using 25 lav's in any show is usually un-necessary -> can you make up a scene list for actors to (while supervised) "trade" mic's? If so you could probably get down to about 15 lav's and eleminate the necessity for another console.

Hope that helped!

-Michael
Senior Designer
Cherry Creek High School
http://www.creektheatre.com


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## TassieBogan (Jan 18, 2005)

Firstly, the Klark Teknic crossover I had in mind is a digital wonderland with 2 inputs and 5 outputs. Each of the 5 outputs is completely configurable with delay, frequency range and hordes of other useful settings.

Is the Verona worth it for this show?? Well congratulations freshmantech, you've hit the nail on the head. At the moment I'm leaning toward yes. Mainly because our college runs a 600 seat theatre, the second biggest in tasmania, and then only by about 20 seats. The company doing this show is charging about 23 dollars for a ticket, so if we get 1\4 of a full house on only one night, it's paid off!


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## blsmn (Jan 18, 2005)

TassieBogan -

When making your final choice for a console rental take a hard look at what exactly you will need and want for the show. Having mixed on a Venice I know Midas consoles are sweet sounding, but does the Verona have all the features you will want to run the show. I don't want to keep bringing this up, but having a console that has programable mute patches for a show with that many lavs will make life a hell of a lot easier for you. Even if you do manage to whittle it down to 15 or so mics, that still is a substantial number to try to effectively mute/unmute when they are needed to be. As an option (and if it is available for a rental) take a look at an Allen & Heath GL4000 or even something in the ML series. Looking at what specs I could find for the Verona I see it has 4 mute groups but says nothing about any kind of programable mute patches. I don't mean to sound like a broken record, but that is one feature that anyone doing large musicals with multiple lavs should have. You might want to take a gander at digital consoles also. I guess what I'm saying is that while Midas's are sweet they may not always be the right choice for the application.


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## TassieBogan (Jan 18, 2005)

I don't think PW have a console with mute scenes. The only other FOH console they have is the venice and an XL 200, which is far too big (and expensive) for our purposes. I have worked a show with 17 mics before (on a venice, without so much as mute groups) , and as long as you attend all the rehearsals beforehand it's fine. :wink: 

Getting a console from interstate isn't an option, because being tasmania, we're kind of isolated.


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## blsmn (Jan 18, 2005)

Yea, I can see your isolation predicament - hell, you're one up on me - I didn't know there was a college in Tasmania  In that case, you will be very happy with the Verona  And for what it's worth, if you do ever use a console with mute scenes for a musical you will never go back :wink:


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## Inaki2 (Jan 18, 2005)

Yeah, only 4 mute grous on the Verona


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## jammers (Jan 19, 2005)

>"There's no such thing as a 5-way crossover"<

Yes there is, we hire a five way funktion-one system mainly for dance events (sub, bass, low mid, high mid, high) using XTA digital x-overs. 5way is too much for typical live music events tho! Not a great need for that 30hz extension live IMO, especially as the f218 (2x18 horn loaded) sound so great anyway!

Jammers


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## Inaki2 (Jan 19, 2005)

Ohh Funktion One....damn I miss those things. I don't see them too often, but what a great alternative to line arrays when those aren't an option. Cool looking also 
U got any pics of the rig?


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## lxdeptnz (Jan 20, 2005)

TassieBogan said:


> Firstly, the Klark Teknic crossover I had in mind is a digital wonderland with 2 inputs and 5 outputs. Each of the 5 outputs is completely configurable with delay, frequency range and hordes of other useful settings.


TassieBogan may be referring to a system processor- E.G the DBX Driverack PA or similar (I think Behringer make a unit too)

David


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## Inaki2 (Jan 20, 2005)

Ugh...don't say the B word please. Let alone compared to a KT unit. Yes, the KT is a digital system processor. 5 way analogue crossovers, hmm, I've seen 2 in my life, one was custom made, I have no clue what the other one was. I am tempted to say Rane, but I'm not sure.
Digital processors are a whole different breed, but they may be an 8 way crossover is permitted.
Wanna see the beast of them all?

http://www.meyersound.com/616/

Bear in mind that the price is also the beast of them all, the rumour I heard was about U$S7500 a piece!!!!


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## The_Guest (Jan 20, 2005)

Andy_Leviss said:


> Jeff,
> In theatre, however, things get much more broken down, with orchestra often in the main stacks or main and center only, vocals only in the center and front fills, and varying mixes of both in the delays depending on the venue, all in an attempt to balance out the pit and the onstage vocals and to keep the vocals imaging to the stage.
> 
> Getting back to the specific situation at hand, however, which is not a large scale musical or tour, if he hadn't specifically mentioned that the house console sounded awful, I'd be hard pressed not to recommend submixing the orchestra on one and feeding it into a channel of the main console.
> ...



This is exactly why I stated submixing works best particularly in theater environments with matrix units. It gives the slave consoles access to the other fills, but with VARIABLE CONTROL. Therefore you don't have to be fettered to the master console's routing. Yes, it's very common to see slaving features on the fancy large scale Cadacs, PM1D, and Digicos alike. But when your dealing with a medium scale console (Disclaimer: Nor the Yamaha PM or the Verona I would consider crap, medium, and such. They're prices aren't as outrageous, therefore declaring in medium) mentioned here, depending on how sophisticated the design is, it's best to look into outboard gear. Esepecially considering these consoles don't offer any master/slave/secondary console features.

Keep in mind there are many other matrix mixers out there, larger ones are often avalable directly through manufactuers. I stated the XL88 because I see it in master drive racks more so than any other matrix mixer. The XL88s accomadations seem sufficient for most applacations. While they're are much larger matrixes avalable on consoles, but do you necessarly need to share all those outputs? Normally, a majority of the channels would be used up by the mains, with a few minor monitor feeds (wing sidefills, dress, backstage, lobby, etc). But if you are talking searious monitoring, each console would feed it's own (eg: orchestra console for monitors in pit, stage reinforcement console for stage monitors, etc). In the extremely rare event (which I have never recalled of) of a concert in which muiltiple band engineers/consoles would share both monitors and FOH loudspeakers, it would seem more logical and pratical to use seperate matrix units to split things up.


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## jammers (Jan 20, 2005)

*F1*

>"Ohh Funktion One....damn I miss those things. I don't see them too often, but what a great alternative to line arrays when those aren't an option."<

Ohh far better sounding than any line array (contolled dispersion, higher efficency, paper cone upto 6khz, less distortion, easyer to fly etc etc...) dont wana get in that argument tho!  

They are scary tho when your mixing a band and you look at the dB meter and your cruising at >120dB at mix position!!!

No i dont have any photos of the system im affraid, think i may of take a couple when the company first got the res5's but cant seem to find them.


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## Inaki2 (Jan 21, 2005)

Better sounding than any line array LOL. Depends on what line array and who's designing it. As for paper cone, dude you got ribbon line arrays!
Nexo's GeoT is also worth anote, they use 8" drivers and go all the way down to 40Hz.
But I agree, F1s are a sweet sounding rig


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## jammers (Jan 22, 2005)

Yeah to a point it is all personal opion. I do like the l`accoustics v-dosc line- that does sound sweet! Werent to impressed with the nexo geo tho. But the F1 is the only system that has really blown me away- maybe because our system engineer really does know the system inside out!! 

But both line and point source have applications where they will sound better. Horses for courses.


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## BackEMF (Jan 24, 2005)

The_Guest said:


> Yes, it's very common to see slaving features on the fancy large scale Cadacs, PM1D, and Digicos alike. But when your dealing with a medium scale console (Disclaimer: Nor the Yamaha PM or the Verona I would consider crap, medium, and such. They're prices aren't as outrageous, therefore declaring in medium) mentioned here, depending on how sophisticated the design is, it's best to look into outboard gear. Esepecially considering these consoles don't offer any master/slave/secondary console features.



The PM3500 is fully capable of being a master or a slave to another PM series desk. You can control all functionality from the master console (VCA's, cue functions, mix busses, etc).

As far as the Verona, and most other consoles are concerned, you can patch the master outputs from the "slave" console to the corresponding SUB IN on the "master" console. If you are concerned about having two sets of master faders (one set controlling the "slave", and another controlling both the "master" and the "slave") you can patch out of the "slave" consoles insert send. So the patch would be, for example, 

"Slave" AUX 1 insert send --> "Master" AUX 1 SUB IN. 

Repeat for all remaining busses, and voila two consoles with one set of master faders. Although I am not sure if you can link the mute groups and cue buss.

For the record, the difference between a submixer an a sidecar is that a sidecar has no master section (specifically, no master faders). It is just a bunch of input channels to expand the input capability of the main console. A submixer is just that, a separate mixer that is used to reduce the number of channels required of the main console. 

For example if you have a 40 channel main console, 16 channels of RF, 16 Channels of playback, 6 channels of time-based FX for the vocalists and another 24 inputs from the pit. You could submix all of the orchestra on a 32 channel console (including whatever time-based FX you are using on them) and send it to two inputs of your main console. So in effect you are actually SUB-grouping the orchestra using a second console instead of the subgroups on your main console.

Hope that clarifies things,

James


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