# Flame cert for backdrop



## jstroming (May 6, 2011)

A friend of mine does an annual show at a nyc venue, and the facility is requesting flame certs for all his soft goods. Of course he has been hanging the same drops there for 20 years, but this is the year theyve decided to get on his ass about it. He's a small budget show and I just don't want him to get screwed over if they give him a hard time on show site. Can anyone give some pointers on this, or a company that can certify it for cheap?

Of course I do shows all over, and have never once been asked to provide a flame cert.


----------



## wolf825 (May 7, 2011)

Howdy, 

The mfg/company who has made or treated his goods should have provided him the certs originally...but whether its FR or IFR treated--the retardants do not last for 20 years and neither do the certs stay valid that long. If he got them treated 20 years ago--past time for a re-treatment... Safety first..we don't want any unprofessional or shady 'fake certs' done when it comes to safety... Having a hard time about providing a FR certification is nothing compared to the hard time he would get if a fire broke out and his softgoods were the contributing factor... Hate to be a broken record...but--Great White/The Station fire--the fallout & suits from that accident held no bounds--right down to the speaker manufacture (JBL I think) got sued because their speaker cones & insulation inside the speakers were not flameproof and contributed to injury and death...even the guy who filmed parts of it that we saw on the news was sued because 'he didn't help and was in the way'...so getting a cert is not a hard time--not having a cert and having a fire IS a much harder time.... 

Also to note--if he is in NY and the show is in NY--if I recall the NYFD rule for theater flame certs is they are only considered valid for one year from treatment date. Important to note. I've toured all over the US--some houses want to see the certs...some trust or don't care...some have to make a copy for insurance purposes before you can hang... Just cause no one ever asks doesn't mean the drops & softgoods shouldn't be treated routinely...the liability fallouts from an accident don't discriminate on being naive... 

Lots of companies out there to do a good FR treatment and provide a cert...if in New York then there are just dozens of companies who can treat and cert.. I can think of a company called "Guaranteed On Site Flame Certs" in NJ....another called Advanced Flameproofing or something like that....then there is Rosebrand in NJ....I-Weiss is in NJ...and I think "SewWhat" is also in NJ--most softgood retailers & sellers will do treatments.....but a google search on Theatrical Flame Retardant Services should yield results. Your friend can shop around OR he can ask the venue who they suggest he use as they may have someone or several options... 



-w


----------



## MPowers (May 7, 2011)

What Wolf has said is right on. When goods are new, get the certificates and keep them on file. If they get re-treated, get the certificates, If you have an AHJ do a flame test, record the date, location, tester, results. 

You always want to make sure you can show your equipment, soft goods etc are in compliance with codes and laws.

In the case of you friend, I might suggest getting a flame test done by an AHJ and documenting it to the nth degree. If everything checks out, well OK. If not, well, sorry to say, the goods should not be allowed on a stage. All above is strictly IMHO.


----------



## MNicolai (May 8, 2011)

MPowers said:


> What Wolf has said is right on. When goods are new, get the certificates and keep them on file. If they get re-treated, get the certificates, If you have an AHJ do a flame test, record the date, location, tester, results.



Your AHJ may differ on the exact logistical process that takes place, but when we purchase fabrics for our scenery, our AHJ usually wants to test it depending on how much if is used on the set. Upon testing it, if we request they provide a document verifying their test, the date, their findings, and their conclusions, they'll provide it to us with the appropriate signatures for our records.

If you're touring, each AHJ or venue may still want to test your materials, but by having a signed document stating it was tested recently and found not to be flammable, you'll at least cut down on the number of tests to be performed on the fabric over the course of its lifetime.


----------



## Chris15 (May 8, 2011)

MNicolai said:


> but by having a signed document stating it was tested recently and *found to not be flame retardant*, you'll at least cut down on the number of tests to be performed on the fabric over the course of its lifetime.


 
Mike, are you having a moment?


----------



## MNicolai (May 8, 2011)

Chris15 said:


> Mike, are you having a moment?


 
Whoops. I mended two separate thoughts together for phrasing that.

"...found to not be flammable" and "...found to be flame retarded" turned into that garbage.

I must be having a night. Had a long day yesterday, and have a 6a-10p strike starting in less than two hours and haven't had a chance to sleep because I've spent the night typing stuff here at CB and drafting our next two light plots in ACAD.

Know what I mean, not what I say.


----------



## Footer (May 9, 2011)

Woo Hoo. Welcome to the wonderful world of FR certs in NYS. I deal with this for nearly every show that pulls up at my dock. We have a state fire marshal in the building for nearly every show, so perfect certs have to be in order. 

Few things to remember. First, NYC has a more stringent cert then NFPA 701. To take a soft good into NYC, both the chemicals applied to the good and the person applying the chemical have to be approved by the NYC Fire Dept/Fire Marshal. You need to have the cert. numbers from the person applying the chemical. Along with that, you need to have the date that person flame tested it. Then on top of all that, you need both a paper form of the cert and something physically attacht ged/sewn onto the drop stating that it is treated. 

I just had a group bring in some drops that they had treated for out venue. They had exactly what they needed and from what I recall they did not pay all that much. The biggest thing about getting drops treated is finding a paint frame or a theatre that they can hang in to dry.


----------



## WDS (Jul 14, 2011)

FR treatment is only really good for 5 years or until it is washed so the original FR is probably no good anymore. It is also so old that even if you could track down the manufacture the chance that they would reissue you a cert is non-existent. If money is really tight then you can always retreat it yourself. It's not really that complicated a process and both Rosebrand and Rosco sell a variety of FR's. NYC has the toughest fire codes in the country so no matter what you do I would recommend calling the Fire Marshal that you will be dealing with and discus what documentation he is looking for. You can even see if he can come out and do a burn test, I have seen drapes that were literally crumbling apart pass the burn test so who knows. Either way, life will be allot easier if you can get him on board before he steps in the theater.

I did run across this on Rose Brand's website today, its a little vague but still helpful. http://www.rosebrand.com/downloads/no-labels-on-my-drapes.pdf


----------



## MPowers (Jul 14, 2011)

Wolf825 said

> ......but whether its FR or IFR treated--the retardants do not last for 20 years and neither do the certs stay valid that long......



Just a point of semantics here, probably just a typo, but.... IFR is not treated. IFR, as I'm sure you know, stands for INHERENTLY Flame Resistant. FR fabric is treated fabric. It is Flame Resistant because it has been treated, not because the material itself will not support a flame. IFR material is flame resistant for the life of the fabric, 20 years, 30 years makes no difference. But as you said, FR is only good for about 5 years. It may actually last longer, or shorter, in some cases but a flame test by an AHJ must confirm and verify that. Codes and applicable rules differ from one jurisdiction to another, but in most cases, after the initial period has elapsed, it must be checked annually unless re-treated and certified by one of the commercial companies specializing in that process.


----------



## Fibredude (Jul 29, 2011)

wolf825 said:


> Howdy,
> 
> The mfg/company who has made or treated his goods should have provided him the certs originally...but whether its FR or IFR treated--the retardants do not last for 20 years and neither do the certs stay valid that long. If he got them treated 20 years ago--past time for a re-treatment... Safety first..we don't want any unprofessional or shady 'fake certs' done when it comes to safety... Having a hard time about providing a FR certification is nothing compared to the hard time he would get if a fire broke out and his softgoods were the contributing factor... Hate to be a broken record...but--Great White/The Station fire--the fallout & suits from that accident held no bounds--right down to the speaker manufacture (JBL I think) got sued because their speaker cones & insulation inside the speakers were not flameproof and contributed to injury and death...even the guy who filmed parts of it that we saw on the news was sued because 'he didn't help and was in the way'...so getting a cert is not a hard time--not having a cert and having a fire IS a much harder time....
> 
> ...



I am having a Similar Problem for certs being requested by the local town FM/AHJ in small township in the NE. We are putting up Producers in a week and the "Leo Bloom" Presents Drop was a part of a package of scenery bought for the show from another theatre in the direct Boston city area so there AHJ rules I assume are even more strict than NFPA 701 (I believe that to be the NFP code our AHJ is requesting to be followed).
The theater we purchased from will provide us a letter of proof that the drop was treated.... but this is not a "true cert" and we may be forced to forgo using this drop.. 
Drop is Muslin and assured was purchased as treated muslin. and then painted on both sides with water based black for approx 98% of the surface areas except where the Lettering of the Bloom drop is just the Muslin. Does haing it painted on both sides not help increase the FR nature of the drop if it is water base paint?

I have even asked that the AHJ perform a Burn Test but AHJ seems to be uncomfortable with that as there is assumption that even if a Burn Test passes that the entire drop could not be assumed to have the same treatment consistency coverage. I understand the AHJ's position and we are all very closely located to where the Station nightclub fire took place and many know people that were lost in that sad event. 

I have also been advised by a reputable FR company that it would make more sense for us to do the FR application ourselves but our AHJ does not want to accept that even though we would be sending a sample of the treated goods to receive a cert since this is exactly what a FR company would do.. The AHJ wants the FR company to be on the hook for liability if the drop(s) were used and somehow where a contributing factor to a fire. 

I inquired about what type of liability insurance the FR companies would provide in this case .. and the answer was a bit surprising as they could not answer what there liabiltiy would be in this case..... So I am wondering if our AHJ is being misguided somehow that having a professional FR application also provides an inferred or implied liability insurance clause for the services... I am not so sure that is the case.. 
I looked into a way to become a Licensed or certified/trained FR applicator and I have been told that there is no Licensing for such a process by a reputable and professional FR company. 
In other local professional houses the application is done by local stage employess.. records are kept.. there local AHJ does a Burn test and a sample material is sent out to get an official cert. This seems quite reasonable but our particular AHJ wants to have no part in allowing us to perform our own FR applications.. 
So I am hoping that someone has a suggestion.. please... please ...as to how to approach and reassure our AHJ that a Burn Test is the right way to go along with a letter of assurance from the former owner of the drop that it was FR treated... 

I have also reached out the same local FR company and they are concerned about applying over a painted drop and I can only assume that they fear it may ruin the drop by causing the paint to run... 

Any suggestions are welcome.. please... I really don't want to have to eliminate this drop form the show.. 

Many thanks for any response..


----------



## mstaylor (Aug 6, 2011)

Tell the company to go ahead and treat it. Your choices are don't treat it and don't use it, or Treat it, possibly mess up the paint, but make a usable drop of it. Is the drop such that you could repair the paint if needed? 
I am surprised the AHJ won't accept a burn test, that is pretty standard. It sounds like he is gunshy of any solution that doesn't involve a pro company, a terminal case of CYA.


----------

