# Can my ColorSource 20 control more than 40 dimmers?



## Stevens R. Miller (Dec 23, 2016)

I may have stepped in it this time. I advised my son's (former) middle school to replace its disintegrating Innovator with an ETC ColorSource 20. Their system has 48 DMX512 dimmers. The CS20 only provides 40 channels, each of which can be assigned to a dimmer, or to a device that uses more than one DMX channel. It also has a numeric keypad for what it calls "classic" control.

My mistake seems to have been assuming that the keypad would let me set the level for DMX addresses outside the range patched to the 40 channels. But it doesn't. If I key in, "1 thru 3 at 50 enter," this has the effect of setting _channels_ 1, 2, and 3 to 50%. It does _not_ set DMX addresses 1, 2, and 3 to 50% (unless, of course, those channels are patched to those addresses).

Does anyone know how I can use the CS20 to set 48 DMX addresses individually, or do I have to hang my head in shame, eat crow, and tell the school they need to pony up another $900 for a ColorSource 40?


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## BillConnerFASTC (Dec 23, 2016)

Stevens I'm think it's a maximum or 40 devices - whether 1 address dimmers or many address/attribute automated lights.


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## Stevens R. Miller (Dec 23, 2016)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> Stevens I'm think it's a maximum or 40 devices - whether 1 address dimmers or many address/attribute automated lights.


I think you're right about that, Bill. I've been fussing with it for a couple of days now and it just doesn't seem to want to act like there are either more than 40 devices, or any way to set levels by DMX address.

Only trick I've been able to play is to lie to it and say that our three sets of gels are each one device. That is, I tell it that DMX addresses 29, 30, and 31 which are individual banks of red, green, and blue gels, are one RGB device (one I guessed at from the long list of devices in the CS20's firmware). Then, I can tell it which color I want that "single" device to be, and that sets the values for all three DMX addresses. One can store different colors in different cues, so it's easy to fade from one color to another, between cues. Since we have three sets of gels on nine dimmers, this trick lets me use three channels to control nine addresses, reducing the total number of channels I need from 48 to 42. Our house electric has 18 instruments on it, run by nine dimmers, all pretty much aimed at the center of the stage. It would hardly be noticed if I ganged up a couple of adjacent instruments so that one channel simply had two dimmers mirror each other. If I did this twice, my nine dimmers on that bar would only need seven channels to control them.

Now, fact is that, although I can see 48 dimmers in the rack, They don't actually have 48 instruments in the house. Several of the dimmers are, as far as I can tell, not connected to anything. The stage electric raceway has a number at each location, and I know what the numbers are for the house lights and the instruments on the house bar. Add them all up and you only get 40 dimmers that are actually being used for anything. (There are a couple of outlets in the walls of the sides of the stage, but they have never, ever been used, and I'd be nervous about plugging anything into them with twelve-year-olds running around them.)

So, I'm wondering if I can use a combination of the tricks I've described above, and reliance on the fact that they don't really use 48 addresses, to justify keeping the CS20. In a pinch, if someone really hated the patches I set up for this, they could always patch it a different way, just so long as they never needed more than 40 channels, one way or the other.

The CS20 is here for evaluation. If we don't feel it works, we can send it back (thanks to Full Compass for being very cool about that for a school with nothing but my amateur guidance to rely on). But, this is being paid for with PTA money, so the budget is very tight. Do you think my approach above is viable, or is it sufficiently rinky-dink that I ought to swallow my pride, admit that the CS20 was not the right choice, and tell the PTA they need to do a fund-drive for another $900 and get the CS40?


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## derekleffew (Dec 23, 2016)

1. Some of the dimmers may not be used in every production,
2. and/or, It's likely that two or more dimmers could be patched to the same control channel. Sacrifice a little flexibility for ease of/faster programming. One channel brings up a wash of six lamps (three or more dimmers), for example.
3.

Stevens R. Miller said:


> ... The CS20 only provides 40 channels, each of which can be assigned to a dimmer, or to a device that uses more than one DMX channel. ...


You have this slightly backwards, and it may make a difference in your thinking. Dimmers are patched into a control channel, not the other way around. A channel can control multiple dimmers, but a dimmer cannot be in (assigned to) multiple channels.
4. Deviating from a one-to-one patch adds another layer of complexity, but most would agree the extra trouble is worth it in the long run. See the thread https://www.controlbooth.com/threads/1-1-patch-do-you-use-it.10703/ .
5. All of this is _*not*_ to say _you didn't screw up_ and might need the larger console after all. Are there any moving lights or LEDs involved?

[Posted simultaneously with the above.]
Your "trick" of "lying" to the console by telling it your red, green, blue -gelled conventionals are one additive mixing device, even though it's at least three dimmers, is one of the most common asked about, so that users can access the console's color picker and have the console mix the desired color. I have mixed emotions about this--the first is always that users should learn to mix RGB on their own without help from the machine, but that's a whole different rant.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Dec 24, 2016)

Stevens - I really think you ought to upgrade to the 40. It seems this will be expected to last a long time, and no ability to rent a couple of movers or add a few LEDs ever, seems very unfortunate.


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## Stevens R. Miller (Dec 24, 2016)

derekleffew said:


> 3. You have this slightly backwards, and it may make a difference in your thinking. Dimmers are patched into a control channel, not the other way around. A channel can control multiple dimmers, but a dimmer cannot be in (assigned to) multiple channels.


No, I had that. Sorry if I expressed myself badly, but I know channels-to-dimmers is a one-to-many relationship, not the other way 'round. That's what I had in mind when I said I could gang up more than one instrument onto one channel.

> 5. All of this is _*not*_ to say _you didn't screw up_ and might need the larger console after all.


 Let us say, _may have blundered_, eh? 

> Are there any moving lights or LEDs involved?


None, and see my reply to Bill, below, for more on that.

> Your "trick" of "lying" to the console by telling it your red, green, blue -gelled conventionals are one additive mixing device, even though it's at least three dimmers, is one of the most common asked about, so that users can access the console's color picker and have the console mix the desired color. I have mixed emotions about this--the first is always that users should learn to mix RGB on their own without help from the machine, but that's a whole different rant.


It's important to remember that this is being installed in a _middle school_ (grades 6, 7, and 8), with no drama teachers. Ease-of-use must be the top priority because, quite simply, if a feature of this device is not easy to use, it will _never_ be used. This device will replace an Innovator 48 which, as far as I can tell, was never used beyond its ability to control dimmers manually. Whoever installed it appeared to have defined a few submasters, but I believe I am the only person in thirteen years who ever programmed a cue into it. Now, for the first time in the school's history, a Technology Education teacher has said he will consider adding the device to his curriculum. That's the only hope we have of anyone on staff actually taking responsibility for it, and for teaching students how to use it. These students will all be thirteen and fourteen years old, and a Tech Ed "module" of lessons devoted to one technological concept is only a few weeks long. So, we have to give them the simplest possible gadget that we can, _within their limited budget_.


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## Stevens R. Miller (Dec 24, 2016)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> Stevens - I really think you ought to upgrade to the 40. It seems this will be expected to last a long time, and no ability to rent a couple of movers or add a few LEDs ever, seems very unfortunate.


I hear you, Bill, and my own natural desire to keep every possible option open strongly pushes me in the same direction. But there are a couple of points to consider, here.

The system I am adding this console to was installed thirteen years ago, when the school was built. As it has turned out, the decision to include a DMX 512 dimmer rack, with 48 dimmers, two electrics, a programmable console, dozens of instruments, and even divide the house ceiling incandescents into nine sections each on its own dimmer, was a massive waste of taxpayer money. I say so because, as far as I can tell, in all of those thirteen years, I am the _only_ person ever to have programmed a cue into the console. For the first show I did with them, I also programmed a chase into the ceiling lights, that had the sections fade up and down in sets, for a mildly psychedelic effect we used during a big dance number. Everyone loved it, but no one even asked me how to do it. Which means, I suspect, that no one will ever do it again.

Of the 48 dimmers they have, I can only find 36 that are in actual use. The rest either don't have anything connected to them (I found a few floor-level wall jacks that I would hope no one would ever use, considering that the kids could get at them), are attached to instruments that burned out years ago (getting them replaced requires, I am told, an act of Almighty God, which is not in the current budget), or are literally just taking up space in the rack (that is, there isn't even a jack one could use to plug in an instrument). The single stage electric is on a winch and, getting it lowered so we can orient the instruments requires a "work order" that typically is not honored for 60 days. Orienting the house electric instruments requires a motorized platform, kind of like an indoor cherry-picker. All in all, it looks to me like thousands and thousands of dollars were spent on some truly fine equipment, almost all of which has gone largely unused, and much of which as been allowed to crumble over the years for lack of maintenance and/or familiarity.

Now, forgive my bit of rant, please, but I ranted because, as much as I agree that the options to add modern instruments and expand the inventory would be nice, that hasn't happened once in over a decade, and there is no reason to think it will happen anytime in the next 20 years (at the end of which, owing to the population and growth predictions for this county, that school will probably be torn down for lack of need, notwithstanding that it is overcrowded today). Because no one ever learned how to use the Innovator 48, the kids who have done the lights for the last thirteen years have always done them by simply memorizing the fader positions and, when a scene changed, slamming them as fast as they could into the next "cue" setting (usually, the kids worked in pairs, to make this happen faster). It's that kind of wear-and-tear that have finally become too much for the Innovator, as now some of its faders glitch to full on or off in the middle of their travel.

So here I am, trying to find something within their limited budget that can give them full use of what they still have, but that will be easy enough to use that it won't be a waste. Fact is, I may be in a problem I really can't solve. I think the CS20 is pretty easy to use, but it's not something one can just turn on and operate immediately. No middle school student is going to figure this thing out on their own. It's going to take a teacher who puts some time into it. (Amazingly, there is _no_ owner's manual for the CS20 nor CS40; ETC seems to think that some woefully inadequate built-in videos, and a cryptic "help" system are enough to teach you to use it. Maybe they know something I don't about how many people ever really read owner's manuals, but I am still someone who does read them, and the lack of one is kind of shocking to me.)

Well... I think you are right. I think I will tell them to find the extra $900 and get the CS40. Alas, I also think I know what will happen if they do. They will (get me to) patch the existing 36 instruments into the first 36 channels on those 40 faders, the kids will slam them into position as fast as they can from memory during scene changes, and no one will ever program a cue into the thing.

Such is life, I suppose.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Dec 24, 2016)

For reasons of being simpler, the 40 avoids the paging. You need a 48 channel 2 scene preset, but a Mantrix would have been ideal as well. I'll be honest that I don't know if anyone makes a board with 2 rows of 48 sliders.

I wonder if the pda app - no hardware to wear out - would be better in this situation, but tracking liscenses would be crazy.


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## Stevens R. Miller (Dec 24, 2016)

Well, I did suggest the DMXControl software. It's free, not terribly complicated, and has the dual advantages of being something the kids (and teachers) can run on their home computers, while not requiring any special computer at the school. All they'd need is any of several low-priced USB-to-DMX interfaces. I used my laptop, DMXControl 2, and the Enttec Open DMX USB to do a show in an identical middle school auditorium (because _their_ Innovator 48 was truly destroyed). It worked flawlessly, although even in "English" mode, the program requires you to learn a few words of German ("heligkeit," for example). The unofficial drama coach (a saintly woman who volunteers to run their productions, and knows how to get the very best out of her kids, but who really wasn't born to cope with anything technical) let me demonstrate that for her. She seemed a bit put off by the idea of using a computer program to dim a light and, I think, was understandably concerned that, if no one really takes responsibility for learning how to use it, she has no safety net like the simple faders provide her.

Gosh, I really do continue to find it frustrating that there doesn't appear to be any rock-bottom, entry-level console that a smart kid could use. Something like the ADJ Scene Setter 48 seems like it gets close, but it looks like it's for running chases, not playing back cues for a dramatic production.

I know I've asked this before, but can you think of any other device at or below the CS20's US$1,700 price point that will allow a kid to set 48 dimmers, record settings as cues, and then edit and play them back? We don't need chases, color control, gobos, motion, or anything else. Just 48 dimmers and an editable cue memory. I've Googled for this until my fingers ache. Seems like what I'm looking for ought to be out there, but all I ever find are things that embrace all the modern options we don't have here, or else things that are way too limited. Somehow, a 2016 version of the Innovator 48 just doesn't seem to exist.

Or, am I wrong about that?


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## derekleffew (Dec 24, 2016)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> ... I'll be honest that I don't know if anyone makes a board with 2 rows of 48 sliders.


Yes: http://www.fullcompass.com/prod/036337-Leprecon-LP1548D
Almost: http://www.fullcompass.com/prod/123544-Lightronics-Inc-TL2448

All those faders cost a lot of money. Price puts one very near, if not squarely into, Element territory.


Stevens R. Miller said:


> ... Somehow, a 2016 version of the Innovator 48 just doesn't seem to exist.


I may be wrong, but I believe even the smallest Innovator used to cost $5000 back then. Again, modern equivalent would be Element or similar: Leviton http://www.stagelightingstore.com/Leviton-Piccolo-Scan-48-Channel-256-Attribute-Lighting-Console .


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## Stevens R. Miller (Dec 24, 2016)

Thanks, Derek! That Leprecon is out of our range, but the Lightronics is doable.

You are correct that the Innovator was expensive, even back in 2003. It was about $4,400. Owing to some complexities of local government that I am sure you do not want me to describe in any detail here, it is easier to spend big money on things like theater equipment as part of a school's construction budget than it is to spend similar amounts as part of its operating budget. So, the original Innovator was bought by the taxpayers. The replacement is being bought by the parents of students who are in the school's drama club. Because there is no Drama Department, and no academic program actually relies on the Innovator, I don't think the school would ever care enough about it to replace it.

I also found another one from ETC that looks pretty good, and I hear a lot of good things about ETC. What do you think of that one?


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## BillConnerFASTC (Dec 24, 2016)

I thought the SmartFade was phased out, or would be very soon.

If you can't have lots of handles - like 2 x 48 which I can't find (Leprecon is only 1 X 48 in two rows) - ColorSource40 or Cognito2 or a software version are probably your options. (I assume you concluded the Innovator was not repairable? Lite-Trol perhaps?)

No secrete that public schools are now or never in terms of funding. I sometimes get criticized by a vendor for including so much including spares of some things, but seems to me getting funds to replace or fix anything in a public school is near impossible, so get while the getting is good on a bond issue. That back up console may be all they have for 10 years after the first one dies in 5 years.


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## JimOC_1 (Dec 24, 2016)

For your situation maybe the scene setter 48 makes sense. Nobody’s job is riding on the quality of the board or show. It only gets used 3-4 times a year. *Kids can run it.* If the kids break it in five or ten year, the PTA can replace it without much pain. PM sent.


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## Stevens R. Miller (Dec 24, 2016)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> I thought the SmartFade was phased out, or would be very soon.


FullCompass's site says, "in stock." I don't much care if I get the last one, if it will meet my spec. That Innovator was obsolete the day they bought it. (I mean, a 3.5" floppy disk in the 21st century? Really?)


> If you can't have lots of handles - like 2 x 48 which I can't find (Leprecon is only 1 X 48 in two rows) - ColorSource40 or Cognito2 or a software version are probably your options.


Using the faders in banks would be fine. Heck, given how abusive the kids are to those things, I'd be happiest with a device that relied on nothing but a keypad and a magic sheet.


> (I assume you concluded the Innovator was not repairable? Lite-Trol perhaps?)


It's not stone-cold dead, but it's on life-support at best. One of the two master cross-faders relentlessly spikes the intensity of the outgoing cue, just before ending the cross-fade. We use the other one exclusively, and it works, but for how much longer? Several of the individual faders no longer go all the way down to zero, so we have to clear their channels with the keypad. Some of them are missing their thumbrest. Others are bent. Several are "scratchy" (that is, they don't increase/decrease values smoothly). The memory battery may well be all of thirteen years old, but you have to perform surgery on the beast to replace it. The school staff would probably have a heart attack if they saw me do that.

It's reallly a shame that it can't be replaced directly, as I have come to feel a certain fondness for it. The kids understand its basic operation (after I explain it to them). They can program cues, set times, edit them in blind mode, and so on. The showtime playback is what it ought to be: just press the same button, over and over. The kids find that boring, but they do like knowing it would be hard for anything to go wrong. Basically, it does exactly what we want, and a little more (thinking of chases here). The CS20, on the other hand, is a fine little contraption, but it is designed for modern instruments with gobos and directional controls, while imposing an arbitrary limit on the number of channels it will control (and that limit is too small). And there's that business of there being no book...


> No secrete that public schools are now or never in terms of funding. I sometimes get criticized by a vendor for including so much including spares of some things, but seems to me getting funds to replace or fix anything in a public school is near impossible, so get while the getting is good on a bond issue. That back up console may be all they have for 10 years after the first one dies in 5 years.


Yup, you get it. Don't know how it is in your county, but here the authority to allocate funds belongs to the county board of supervisors. Once the allocation is made, however, spending that allocation is entirely under the control of the school board. Thus, the BOS and the SB are in a constant fight over how much it really ought to cost to build a school. The BOS would like to see things like exotic lighthing system no one uses come out of the budget, but the SB insists on its right to make those choices. When a new school has to be funded, the SB tends to tell us parents that, unless the BOS allocates US$[insert eye-popping number here] for a school, it will have dirt floors, be illuminated by kerosene lamps, and classes will each have 40 students in them. We do our part, by laying siege to the BOS building, pitchforks and torches in our hands, demanding that they not ruin our children's futures by underfunding their new school. At some point, typically, the BOS capitulates, the SB gets its millions, and we end up with another school full of exotic equipment no one knows how to use. (Disclaimer: My son is a student in those schools and I love seeing him in a modern facility. I was also a member of the BOS for four years, and got sick of being jacked around by the SB. I am conflicted person, in many ways.)

Well, at least I've finally got some options to consider that look viable. Thanks, you guys! This is one of the most helpful online forums I've ever found.


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## Stevens R. Miller (Dec 24, 2016)

JimOC_1 said:


> For your situation maybe the scene setter 48 makes sense. Nobody’s job is riding on the quality of the board or show. It only gets used 3-4 times a year. *Kids can run it.* If the kids break it in five or ten year, the PTA can replace it without much pain. PM sent.



I read your PM, Jim. I hadn't though of using it as a 24-scene library of cues, cross-fading between them. But I agree: kids could do that. And, the thing is really cheap!

In an extreme case, if the kids can't understand even storing a scene and cross-fading between scenes, they can at least go back to running all 48 manually.

This idea has a lot of merit, I think.


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## Evans Poulos (Dec 24, 2016)

Is a used element not an option for your situation?


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## Stevens R. Miller (Dec 24, 2016)

Evans Poulos said:


> Is a used element not an option for your situation?


I think it isn't Evans, for several reasons. First, even a used Element in good shape is typically out of our price range. Second, used equipment is typically that much more vulnerable to the effects of harsh treatment than new gear, and these kids are full of harsh treatment. Third, I think it's just too complicated for middle schoolers to learn. At my son's high school, they have an Element, and it is always students who run it. But, when I ask those students how they learned to use it, they always say, "A senior taught me." That kind of perpetual institutional knowledge just isn't going to be possible in a middle school.

JimOC_1 PM'ed me with an idea I like a lot: He uses an inexpensive ADJ Scene Setter-48 in his high school. The kids define 24 scenes, then set the device in two-preset mode. The first cue is played by choosing the scene to use from the defined set of 24 and running up the fader the scene is assigned to. The next cue is preset on the other set of 24 and, when it is time to play the cue, the cross-faders are used to fade from one to the other. The third cue can then be set in the first set of faders and, again, the cross-faders fade from one to the other.

Now, this system only allows for 24 distinct scenes, but a typical middle school play isn't going to need more than 24 scenes, even if it has more than 24 cues, because many of those cues can reuse the same scene. (You can also combine scenes for more complex cues; that's getting back towards doing it manually, but the big advantage is that the presets are being done in the bank that is _not_ live, so there's no need for the kids to be rushing as fast as they can, slamming the faders into place.)

We recently did "Aladdin Jr" at this school. There were about 98 distinct cues. But, we used the same setting for every scene in "Jafar's lair," and the same settting for every scene in "the marketplace," and so on. We could easily have had the same 98 cues while still being limited to no more than 24 distinct settings.

I like this idea a lot because it does store the scenes, so the kids don't have to remember the level for each dimmer in each scene, but they also don't need to know how to create and edit a playable cue list. It does have them manually cross-fading from one cue to the next, rather than just punching a "GO" button, which is the better way. But, truth is, they will have more fun running the cross-faders than they would just jabbing a single button 98 times.

If, for some reason, the kids can't even master programming scenes and cross-fading, they will be able to go back to the "fast and furious" approach they've been using, since they'll still have 48 individually controllable dimmers at their hands. I don't like that approach, because it's not good theater and is rough on the gear, but, at a price of $400, they can replace a battered Scene Setter-48 every few years (assuming that it, or a comparable device, is still available).

I'm going to look hard at the manuals for the Lighttronics TL2448 and ETC SmartFade SF1248. Both look like they are very close to my specs, albeit for US$1,800. But, we paid that much for the CS20, so it's a break-even.

If anyone here has personal experience with either of those, please let me know what you think of them.


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## Jay Ashworth (Dec 24, 2016)

Maybe I'm wrong, but -- you already having decided to bite the bullet -- isn't the proper solution to *let the client make the $900 call*? 

My boss had to hammer that one into me, since making people's decisions for them is most of what i do for a day job...


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## RonHebbard (Dec 25, 2016)

derekleffew said:


> 1. Some of the dimmers may not be used in every production,
> 2. and/or, It's likely that two or more dimmers could be patched to the same control channel. Sacrifice a little flexibility for ease of/faster programming. One channel brings up a wash of six lamps (three or more dimmers), for example.
> 3. You have this slightly backwards, and it may make a difference in your thinking. Dimmers are patched into a control channel, not the other way around. A channel can control multiple dimmers, but a dimmer cannot be in (assigned to) multiple channels.
> 4. Deviating from a one-to-one patch adds another layer of complexity, but most would agree the extra trouble is worth it in the long run. See the thread https://www.controlbooth.com/threads/1-1-patch-do-you-use-it.10703/ .
> ...


@derekleffew I'm welcoming your color picker rant as an educationally interesting discussion point please. 
Not that I've sold myself as a designer, (always having been an LX, head LX or head SFX in a producing theatre or head LX in a scene and automation shop) but when designing at the amateur level I've always chose my wash and facial colors by envisioning the look of how different colors appear and change their relative mixes as they wrap around a spherical object such as a performer's skull and face as this is so different from how they mix when illuminating a flat surface such as a drop or flat. I wonder how well a board's color picker [and visualizers] can deal with communicating how several colors from several angles will blend on and about a spherically curved surface. Please forgive me if I haven't explained that adequately and 'take it away' @derekleffew please.
SEASON'S BEST!
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.


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## Stevens R. Miller (Dec 25, 2016)

Jay Ashworth said:


> Maybe I'm wrong, but -- you already having decided to bite the bullet -- isn't the proper solution to *let the client make the $900 call*?



My situation is atypical. The players are all of the following:

The Drama Coach: She's a local preschool teacher with directing experience who, for a very small stipend, virtually volunteers to direct/produce two musicals every year at (what used to be) my son's middle school. She is a fabulously talented woman who knows very little about theater lighting tech, and is counting on me to deliver that knowledge.

The PTA: They are the treasury in this story and have the power to allocate money as they deem fit. The dramatic productions are actually revenue generators, so they are smart enough to know that investing some of that profit back into the theater makes good business sense. But they also include a lot of parents who see sports equipment and other things as high-priority items. Talking them into backing a four-figure purchase was a major stroke of diplomacy by The Drama Coach.

The Parents of the Drama Club Members: They are the ones who lobbied for the PTA to use proceeds from the last couple of shows to buy some new gear for the auditorium/theater, including a cyc, some footlights, and the replacement lighthing console. They know varying degrees about theater, but none of them knows anything about lighthing tech. They are counting on me to deliver that knowledge.

The Middle School Administration: They are actually pretty friendly to drama, but are nervous about allowing non-staff to be making choices about complicated equipment that will go into their existing lighting system. By showing them we could make fuller use of their existing equipment than anyone ever has before, we have earned a degree of their trust. But they are wary and making any mistakes that cause them to doubt us could be fatal to that trust.

FullCompass: A saintly vendor that has offered us an extended try-and-buy deal on the CS20, since no one here (including me) really knew if it would work for us (and, thank Ghu that they did, as it appears it just won't).

Me: I'm a volunteer with a lot of technical skills, but only early amateur level knowledge of theatrical lighthing. Pretty much everyone above is putting their faith in me to make sure they spend as little as possible in order to get a device that will actually work and that sixth, seventh, and eighth graders can use.

So, if I were to go back to them and say, "Well, the CS20 won't cut it, but I'm really, kinda, pretty, almost certain that, for another nine-hundred bucks, the CS40 will get the job done," they might say, "Oh, well, if that's what you think we need to do, we'll do it." But, it is at least as likely that they will say, "What? You told use this eighteen-hundred-dollar machine was what we needed. Now you want _more_ money? How do we know this will work any better?"

In a sense, I really don't have a client. I have an opportunity to convince a large group of people to make a particular choice that will, for a long time, allow their children to produce plays that include decent, basic lighting cues, with those children running the lights themselves. Throwing the decision back to them will only have them questioning how useful my advice really is, and leave them that much more baffled about what to do.

As a lawyer, I face this problem all the time. You want your client to know enough to make wise choices, but you also have a duty to give advice when you think you know which choice is best. If you are competent, your advice is pretty good. Here, though, I have nowhere near the same level of expertise in theater lighting that I have in the practice of law. That's why I'm a volunteer on this, dig?  I'm learning it as I go along (with a lot of great help from folks in this forum), hoping I don't screw the pooch before getting all these good and trusting folks to buy a device that will work for them.

At this point, JimOC_1's suggestion about using the low-cost Scene Setter-48 in a kind mixed programmed/manual mode looks very promising, and he's arranged for me to borrow one so I can test it directly. If it works out, I'll demonstrate it for The Drama Coach and, at that point, she will make the actual decision.

I do like the CS20, by the way. It's a pretty nifty little console with a lot features for the price. But, it won't run 48 dimmers, has a lot of features we'll never use, and is simply too complicated for a middle-schooler to operate.

More soon...


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## BillConnerFASTC (Dec 25, 2016)

In your description and as regards theatre lighting gear, you're doing just what I do, facing same obstacles, but you don't get paid. By getting paid, people feel more obligated to listen and follow my recommendations. I'm sure it would be similar if I was offering free legal aid. So, clearly the solution is to send them a bill for your consulting services.


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## Stevens R. Miller (Dec 25, 2016)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> In your description and as regards theatre lighting gear, you're doing just what I do, facing same obstacles, but you don't get paid. By getting paid, people feel more obligated to listen and follow my recommendations. I'm sure it would be similar if I was offering free legal aid. So, clearly the solution is to send them a bill for your consulting services.



I believe you've got it figured out, Bill. Of course, in my paid work, I have found that it is usually the clients with the lowest budgets that expect the most for what they pay. Being a volunteer at least means they don't expect much of me. And if they did pay me even a token sum, given my bumbling level of skill in this area, I'd probably have to give them some advice derived from what I told a client a few years ago. Fellow came to me with what he said was a "small legal problem." At our first meeting, he described a complex fact pattern that called for someone with extensive, specialized experience I didn't have. After listening to this for a while, I finally told him, "Speaking as your attorney, my advice to you is that you should get a better lawyer."

The school system here actually does have a support and maintenance contract with a local theatrical tech company, but they are the ones who appear to have talked the school into buying tens of thousands of dollars' worth of gear they didn't need and don't use. If I can get the kids in a position to run simple light cues with a few hours of my time and a four-hundred-dollar device, I'm willing to do it. The contractor, on the other hand, would probably see little upside to recommending a cheap console to a school system that has probably paid them over a million dollars in the last twenty years. And the last thing I want to see happen here is for the too-complicated-for-anyone-to-use-it Innovator to be replaced by an also-too-complicated-for-anyone-to-use-it contraption that costs a lot, when a low-cost, limited-function gizmo will actually work and actually be used.

Oh, by the way: Merry Christmas to all who celebrate it! Happy second day of Hannukah, as well.


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## derekleffew (Dec 25, 2016)

RonHebbard said:


> @derekleffew I'm welcoming your color picker rant as an educationally interesting discussion point please. ... Please forgive me if I haven't explained that adequately and 'take it away' @derekleffew please.


Nah; it's Christmas. In honor of the season, I shall spare the world of my tirade, at least until 2017.

Best to you and yours, and them and theirs, and his and hers, and...


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## BillConnerFASTC (Dec 25, 2016)

Stevens R. Miller said:


> I believe you've got it figured out, Bill. Of course, in my paid work, I have found that it is usually the clients with the lowest budgets that expect the most for what they pay. Being a volunteer at least means they don't expect much of me. And if they did pay me even a token sum, given my bumbling level of skill in this area, I'd probably have to give them some advice derived from what I told a client a few years ago. Fellow came to me with what he said was a "small legal problem." At our first meeting, he described a complex fact pattern that called for someone with extensive, specialized experience I didn't have. After listening to this for a while, I finally told him, "Speaking as your attorney, my advice to you is that you should get a better lawyer."
> 
> The school system here actually does have a support and maintenance contract with a local theatrical tech company, but they are the ones who appear to have talked the school into buying tens of thousands of dollars' worth of gear they didn't need and don't use. If I can get the kids in a position to run simple light cues with a few hours of my time and a four-hundred-dollar device, I'm willing to do it. The contractor, on the other hand, would probably see little upside to recommending a cheap console to a school system that has probably paid them over a million dollars in the last twenty years. And the last thing I want to see happen here is for the too-complicated-for-anyone-to-use-it Innovator to be replaced by an also-too-complicated-for-anyone-to-use-it contraption that costs a lot, when a low-cost, limited-function gizmo will actually work and actually be used.
> 
> Oh, by the way: Merry Christmas to all who celebrate it! Happy second day of Hannukah, as well.




I sometimes have specified equipment beyond what a school client could realistically need or use, because of parity or what they had (and didn't use), or just by the school's insistence. It isn't always the consultant or dealer that is responsible for over equipping.


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## dbaxter (Dec 25, 2016)

Stevens, I truly admire that you are willing (and able - to the best of your knowledge) to work this out. What is disappointing to me is that you have to. When my kids were in high school, the school put on 3 shows a year, there was a class in acting they could take, the youngest did participate in orchestra and in jazz band - instruments provided by the school. There is a 'Performing Arts' department, with administrator, technical director, and secretary. I, myself, was paid several hundred dollars a show for several years to help build the sets for the plays and musicals. Has education changed that much since my guys graduated?


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## Stevens R. Miller (Dec 25, 2016)

dbaxter said:


> When my kids were in high school, the school put on 3 shows a year, there was a class in acting they could take, the youngest did participate in orchestra and in jazz band - instruments provided by the school. There is a 'Performing Arts' department, with administrator, technical director, and secretary. I, myself, was paid several hundred dollars a show for several years to help build the sets for the plays and musicals. Has education changed that much since my guys graduated?



The local high schools match what you describe pretty well, d. The school I'm working with is a middle school. The equipment they have is more than good enough to put on decent shows. The local community theater companies usually rent the middle school auditoriums instead of the high school auditoriums, because they are about half the price, yet still have excellent technical infrastructures. The problem is only felt by the middle schools themselves, since, while there are Music and Tech Ed departments, there is no Drama department. No one takes ownership of the tech in the middle school auditoriums and, since it is simply too complex for the students to figure out on their own, it goes to waste.

A solution would be to work an arrangement with the high school that each middle school "feeds" such that a junior or senior studying drama could get some credit for being an assistant to the director, responsible for supervising the middle school techies. That's essentially what I do when I help on a show. Usually, there are two kids on the sound board, and two on lights. Another adult volunteer helps the sound techies (there are _loads_ of local adults who can handle a mixer), and I help the lighting techies. But, apparently, I'm unique. In a county full of defense-contractor employees, many of whom are computer programmers (like me), I'm the only nerd they can find who has read the owner's manual on the Innovator, studied up on DMX512 and basic lighting tech, and come in to teach the kids. There's no reason I can think of why this shouldn't be the role of a high school drama student (or, hey!, maybe they can do something with the drama department at the local community college... hmmm...).

Anyway, that's why I like JimOC_1's idea so much: having them play the cues from a 24-entry library of scenes assigned to pre-programmed submasters isn't how any professional would do it, I am sure. But, a couple of smart middle schoolers working from a short cheat-sheet I prepare, could handle that.

At least, I hope so...


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## dbaxter (Dec 25, 2016)

The high school tech director was also responsible for setup and running (with student help) of any performances at the middle and elementary schools [just one each in our district]. I did not envy his workday.
I agree that you could probably get away with 24 'looks' and reuse them like cues, so perhaps that's the solution.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Dec 26, 2016)

I agree the Scene Setter 48 could be a good choice - a lot like the Strand Mantrix of 1982 - but the Elation web site says discontinued. A problem of the LED world is the orphaned dimmer per circuit era. I know it seems nearly impossible to imagine dimmers and quartz completely disappearing, but I think it's probably just a generation away.


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## Stevens R. Miller (Dec 26, 2016)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> I agree the Scene Setter 48 could be a good choice - a lot like the Strand Mantrix of 1982 - but the Elation web site says discontinued. A problem of the LED world is the orphaned dimmer per circuit era. I know it seems nearly impossible to imagine dimmers and quartz completely disappearing, but I think it's probably just a generation away.



That's puzzling about Elation saying it's discontinued. It's still listed on ADJ's Web site, and several vendors say they have it in stock. There are a lot of them on the used market and, even though I would prefere to avoid used gear for this installation, they are low enough in cost that I'd consider it.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Dec 26, 2016)

I agree. Just pointing out you may not want to wait and may want to reserve one before presenting to PTA. I can tell you tough on theatre consultant's credibility when recommended products are not sufficient or not available.


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## Stevens R. Miller (Dec 26, 2016)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> I agree. Just pointing out you may not want to wait and may want to reserve one before presenting to PTA. I can tell you tough on theatre consultant's credibility when recommended products are not sufficient or not available.



Man, that _would_ be a downer! I see a half-dozen vendors who say they have them still in stock, plus several more on eBay. I'll see if any of them will hold one for me but, if they all get away, can you recommend something similar in the under-US$1,000 range?


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## JohnA (Dec 26, 2016)

A bit off topic here.....but as to the suggestion to work an arrangement with HS students to assist--this may not be in the school's best interest on a LONG term basis. Let me qualify this: Yes, you will be assured of staff to run the shows, but periodic maintenance and address of repairs/other tech issues will not happen. 

I offer this from the perspective of being TD in a middle shool in one district, and serve as an on call tech consultant for a MS in another district (does not have a dedicated tech staff person). When I started as TD in first school, the task had been previously carried out by well meaning HS students. I spent the better part of 2 months correcting wiring issues that violated every aspect of NFPA and NEC codes. This was a district that had "smart, motivated" students. They just didn't have the time or interest to do anything more than run a show. As for the other district, things break or stop working on a regular basis; there is no PM. They call me, I fix it, done--until the next thing breaks. But, they are assured that ONE person handles issues, in a timely, cost effective manner; without the run around or the blame game (vendor A says it was vendor B's fault....).

FWIW-I train the MS Tech Crew one afternoon per week in January and February for their annual March show. They learn how to program and run a conventional/intelligent light board, the Fat Frog by Zero88; and a legacy Mackie 40 channel mixer for sound. By the time the show comes, they are running everything. I am there to coach them if some the goes really bad, but they do 90% of it.


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## Stevens R. Miller (Dec 26, 2016)

JohnA said:


> A bit off topic here.....but as to the suggestion to work an arrangement with HS students to assist--this may not be in the school's best interest on a LONG term basis. ... I spent the better part of 2 months correcting wiring issues that violated every aspect of NFPA and NEC codes.



Yeah, I wouldn't want unqualified people, kids or otherwise, messing with the wiring. Fortunately, the school system here has a maintenance contract with a professional contractor for that. The only thing I'd want a HS student to do is train the MS techies to run the board. But, I've learned from being a parent of a student in this sytem for the last nine years that the principals and teachers, nearly all of whom are very fine folks, feel they need no one's help in designing their curricula or their extra-curricular functions. The chances that the Drama Club and/or other interested parties could get the principals of _both_ the HS and MS to approve this are practically nil. So it's just a dream I have, and a dream it is going to remain.


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## Stevens R. Miller (Dec 27, 2016)

Interesting update: A support tech from ETC found this thread and confirmed for me via e-mail that, alas, the CS20 really does top out at 40 dimmers. It can use more than 40 addresses when controlling devices more sophisticated than dimmers, but when you are patched one-for-one, 40 is the hard limit. I'll reiterate that I think the CS20 is a pretty keen console, but it just isn't right for the job I'm doing.

Rather nice to know that a major vendor of theater-tech gear reads ControlBooth, eh?


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## Jay Ashworth (Dec 27, 2016)

Yup.

It has 40 *channels*. Even if you're addressing single-address devices, though, those can be numbered anywhere in the universe; you simply can't *address* more than 40 of them at the same time.

How it is for hot-repatching, I don't remember.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Dec 27, 2016)

Stevens R. Miller said:


> Interesting update: A support tech from ETC found this thread and confirmed for me via e-mail that, alas, the CS20 really does top out at 40 dimmers. It can use more than 40 addresses when controlling devices more sophisticated than dimmers, but when you are patched one-for-one, 40 is the hard limit. I'll reiterate that I think the CS20 is a pretty keen console, but it just isn't right for the job I'm doing.
> 
> Rather nice to know that a major vendor of theater-tech gear reads ControlBooth, eh?




Yes, and several. I posted a picture of a label with misspelling and a new one with correct spelling was sent to the job site. It hard to not appreciate and favor this kind of service.


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## RonHebbard (Dec 27, 2016)

Stevens R. Miller said:


> Interesting update: A support tech from ETC found this thread and confirmed for me via e-mail that, alas, the CS20 really does top out at 40 dimmers. It can use more than 40 addresses when controlling devices more sophisticated than dimmers, but when you are patched one-for-one, 40 is the hard limit. I'll reiterate that I think the CS20 is a pretty keen console, but it just isn't right for the job I'm doing.
> 
> Rather nice to know that a major vendor of theater-tech gear reads ControlBooth, eh?


If you keep appending those eh?'s on the end, you're going to fool me into believing you're one of my countrymen.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.


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## Nathan Kufchak (Dec 27, 2016)

Stevens R. Miller said:


> My situation is atypical. The players are all of the following:
> 
> The Drama Coach: She's a local preschool teacher with directing experience who, for a very small stipend, virtually volunteers to direct/produce two musicals every year at (what used to be) my son's middle school. She is a fabulously talented woman who knows very little about theater lighting tech, and is counting on me to deliver that knowledge.
> 
> ...


I'm a teacher and completely understand EVERYTHING you are saying. I purchased a used Smartfade ML for doing shows- wife is a middle school drama teacher, plus I assist with technicals for 2 high schools as well as some local community theater groups. Its a board that I can train someone on the basics (including saving scene presets) and can trust a student to not mess up. If the plan is to get a functional board for your 48 dimmer room, I would highly suggest a smartfade. Also, check out the computer software. Kids can actually program in the tech room hooked into their computer via USB. It would seriously work well. If the plan is to eventually go with led lighting (even cheap crappy ones from amazon) I would suggest the ML. It has limitations and not perfect by any means, but it is great for a middle school student to run. I actually just had a Christmas sing along that we did last Friday, and a 1st grader ran the lights for me while I ran sound and video. It is easy!


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## Evans Poulos (Dec 28, 2016)

I would have to respectfully disagree with the premise that a used express would be beyond the scope of what you are trying to accomplish. 
If you are ready to program scenes on subs anyway on another device, you can do that on an express. You can create cheat sheets for more ambitious folk to stretch a little and still be able to restore a backed up show file if it goes awry. 
The manual is excellent and I'm reasonably sure that they will be able to find a student who would be thrilled to learn it at least every few classes. It give you more flexibility and in a few years, when your counterpart's offspring enters the school, they will sing your praises for having them foresight to leave them with something they can expand upon. 
I would also recommend that having a more flexible console inhouse enhances the revenue that can ask for renting the space to others.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Dec 28, 2016)

Evans Poulos said:


> I would have to respectfully disagree with the premise that a used express would be beyond the scope of what you are trying to accomplish.
> If you are ready to program scenes on subs anyway on another device, you can do that on an express. You can create cheat sheets for more ambitious folk to stretch a little and still be able to restore a backed up show file if it goes awry.
> The manual is excellent and I'm reasonably sure that they will be able to find a student who would be thrilled to learn it at least every few classes. It give you more flexibility and in a few years, when your counterpart's offspring enters the school, they will sing your praises for having them foresight to leave them with something they can expand upon.
> I would also recommend that having a more flexible console inhouse enhances the revenue that can ask for renting the space to others.


It is 20+ year old technology and relies on a floppy disk for storage. If you had one or were given one at no cost, perhaps worth considering, but time to move on.


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## Stevens R. Miller (Dec 28, 2016)

Jay Ashworth said:


> It has 40 *channels*. Even if you're addressing single-address devices, though, those can be numbered anywhere in the universe; you simply can't *address* more than 40 of them at the same time.



Perhaps this is part of the learning process for all us noobs, but I am coming to see that the word "channel" is not rigidly used to mean just one thing. The various vendors' Web sites all use it to mean what you just meant, Jay, but they all also use it interchangeably with "address." For example, here's an excerpt from a retailer's copy:

_ 14 reversible faders and an assignable joystick allow for easy programming of up to 12, 32 channel fixtures.
The Obey 70 can store up to 6 sets of chases containing 240 scenes on 384 total channels of control._

And further down the same page, in the specs:

_384 DMX channels of control
_
Now, once you learn that a "DMX channel" is really a "DMX address," in this context, and that a "fixture" is, ultimately, a light (and, therefore, a single fader on the box), you can crack the code and determine that, no matter how many DMX "channels" they say a console can use, it is the number of "fixtures" that limits what you can do. In my setting, I have exactly 48 fixtures making use of exactly 48 DMX addresses. I am not blaming ETC for this, but with the general lack of precision used in pretty much all vendors' advertising copy, I feel it was an understandable mistake for me to think that a device capable of taking control of over 48 DMX "channels" could do what I needed. (And I continue to find it frustrating that the keypads on these consoles could, but for limits imposed by their firmware, easily do what I need.)

Well, like Margaret Fuller, I accept the universe as it is. I just don't always have to like it.


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## Stevens R. Miller (Dec 28, 2016)

Evans Poulos said:


> I would have to respectfully disagree with the premise that a used express would be beyond the scope of what you are trying to accomplish.
> If you are ready to program scenes on subs anyway on another device, you can do that on an express. You can create cheat sheets for more ambitious folk to stretch a little and still be able to restore a backed up show file if it goes awry.



If we were looking to replace the Innovator with comparable tech, the Express might work (but then, so would another Innovator, if we could find one). The problem is, mostly, that the Innovator was way, _way_ too much board for a middle school with no dedicated drama teacher.


> I'm reasonably sure that they will be able to find a student who would be thrilled to learn it at least every few classes.



If only that were so. But you can't just turn a kid loose on a lighting board. We have smart kids who want to learn, but it would be a rare middle-schooler who could figure out a console, even a simple one, entirely on their own. And, again, that's where the problem arises: we don't have a teacher assigned to take ownership of the lighting tech. If that changes, all kinds of new options open up. Until then, the last thirteen years have shown that only the simplest tech will actually be used.[/quote]


> I would also recommend that having a more flexible console inhouse enhances the revenue that can ask for renting the space to others.



The community theater company I work with stonewalled me when I suggested we rent a high school, instead of a middle school, for our upcoming show. I wanted the high school because it had _much_ better lighting, with three electrics, some fx, and an ETC Element. But the high schools charge _twice_ what the middle schools charge, and we just don't have that in our budget. (FWIW, the old hands in my company say they believe the high school principals deliberately overprice their theaters, because they are pressured to show that they are making them available to help defray operating costs, but they actually don't want anyone to use them, as it conflicts with in-house use and risks damage from incompetent bumblers like me.)


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## sk8rsdad (Dec 28, 2016)

Stevens R. Miller said:


> the old hands in my company say they believe the high school principals deliberately overprice their theaters



I can't speak for this particular school but it is my experience that many renters underestimate the effort and expense of operating a theatre. Heat, electricity, cleaning, mortgage, insurance, depreciation, staffing, and many other expenses add up to significant dollars. Then there's the wear and tear on equipment, facilities, and (volunteer) staff to consider, and staff is perhaps the most important. How many evenings and weekends should a TD or custodian be expected to work in any given year? Damages can be near-fatal for a school facility where funding for repair and replacement is difficult. 

It is always more profitable to mount our own productions than it is to make the venue available for rent. That said, we have a responsibility to the community and set a rate that is comparable to nearby facilities with steep discounts for community groups so we're operating at a loss when we rent to them.


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## Stevens R. Miller (Dec 28, 2016)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> I thought the SmartFade was phased out, or would be very soon.



Following up on this, ETC Tech. Support Spec. Justin Williams (who has been following this thread) told me the following:


Justin William said:


> The Smartfade has not been discontinued. There is no set end of life date for it at this time either. ETC will always support any product that we make/sell as long as parts are available for it. The Smartfade is still very much sellable and repairable.


ETC provides a freely downloadable simulator that can be used to edit show files imported from and exported back to the actual hardware. I've been playing with that quite a bit today. Looks like a good match to our needs, so far. Slightly more in price than the CS20, but not enough to break the bank. With the much less expensive Scene Setter-48 and the Smartfade 1248, I think I am in a position to present the school with a pair of choices that will both work for them, and let them be the ones to have the last word on what they choose. As we know, cooperation in the workplace is essential, as that is what allows each of us to blame someone else...


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## Jay Ashworth (Dec 28, 2016)

I grew up on a SmartFade 24/96, and I love it to death.

They're even available used on eBay for sane prices (from just below to just above a grand, depending on size, and how long you want to wait for your pitch).

They want nothing to do with multi-channel DMX fixtures, though. Nothing at all.

For that you need the SmartFade ML, which comes at a significant premium ($500-1000 more). I can't speak to how well that one works, never having had my fingers on one.

I would expect that like its older brother, it has the advantage that you can yank a handle and get photons, which is the required characteristic for boards in low-end venues with itinerant operators.


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## Stevens R. Miller (Dec 29, 2016)

Jay Ashworth said:


> I grew up on a SmartFade 24/96, and I love it to death.



It looks very good! After spending some time playing with the Virtual Smartfade emulator/editor, I can see this very closely matches our needs. Moreover, the YouTube instructional videos are like a complete course in how to use it. As one of our goals is to get the Tech Ed teachers interested, showing them a free simulator and ready-to-go set of videos might help us convince them that this is a low-cost, low-labor offering to add to their syllabus.


> They're even available used on eBay for sane prices (from just below to just above a grand, depending on size, and how long you want to wait for your pitch).



Indeed! There seem to be quite a few available from numerous used vendors. For myself, I'd go that route. For the middle school, I think new is the better choice, as the kids can be hard on gear, and a warranty will be important.


> They want nothing to do with multi-channel DMX fixtures, though. Nothing at all.



That's okay. We have 48 dimmers, each of which drives a single-address incandescent lumière. Nothing we have here moves, changes color, inserts a gobo, alters its width, or otherwise departs from its basic mission of emitting light at varying intensities. Owing to the way public schools are funded, nothing we have here ever will, either. (Yes, I _am_ trying to get a new light board put into this school, but you'd be amazed at all the hoops the school put in front of us to jump through, just to _donate_ this item. I can't imagine what kind of obstacles would bar us from installing something requiring a licensed electrician's services.)

This has been an interesting experience. What I want is a "simple" board, with rather rudimentary features. But, as Bill Conner observed, it appears the "dimmer per circuit era" is, or shortly will be, behind us. My little middle school and its once state-of-the-art auditorium is now a victim of progress, left behind by technology so great and so cheap that hardly anyone has a reason to sell simple boards anymore.

But, the suggestions here about the Scene Setter-48 and the Smartfade 1248 do look squarely aimed at meeting our needs, so I remain optimistic. Still that pesky little problem of being able to explain to the school why the CS20 I so loudly approved was not the right choice after all. Well, I'm a lawyer. Talking my way out of things is something I'm supposed to be able to do, eh? right?


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## RonHebbard (Dec 29, 2016)

Stevens R. Miller said:


> It looks very good! After spending some time playing with the Virtual Smartfade emulator/editor, I can see this very closely matches our needs. Moreover, the YouTube instructional videos are like a complete course in how to use it. As one of our goals is to get the Tech Ed teachers interested, showing them a free simulator and ready-to-go set of videos might help us convince them that this is a low-cost, low-labor offering to add to their syllabus.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Loved that crossed out "eh?"
Season's best and Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Dec 29, 2016)

Stevens R. Miller said:


> My little middle school and its once state-of-the-art auditorium is now a victim of progress, left behind by technology so great and so cheap that hardly anyone has a reason to sell simple boards anymore.



I'd guess the auditorium was state of the art for a lot longer than most of the computer systems you deal with.

Now, whether it was perhaps a victim of over-design - albeit by a vendor if I understand you correctly - or not over design or even under-designed - I can never be sure. I remain the optimist that that perhaps it sparked an interest in someone that became a lifelong pursuit, and was therefore worth it. (I had in mind a student, not you, for "someone", but still value.) When I see the horribly under designed and inadequate public school spaces ostensibly for the performing arts that are so unsupportive, I don't ever feel bad about pushing for more in the projects I work on if just to raise the average.


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## microstar (Dec 29, 2016)

I'm pretty sure Teatronics still makes the Tech Director series of 2-scene preset consoles and the Producer3 2-scene/submaster/memory console. All available in 48-channel versions. They have always been well-built in my opinion. The manuals are available in PDF form on their web site.


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## Stevens R. Miller (Dec 29, 2016)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> I'd guess the auditorium was state of the art for a lot longer than most of the computer systems you deal with.


That's hard for me to say, since I'm new to theater and theater tech. The school was built in 2003. Here in Loudoun county, we build schools according to a fixed architectural design. With a few options, that means our middle schools all look exactly alike (or are mirror images of each other). That's a shame because it creates the expectation in the minds of parents that, if one school has a given asset, then _all_ schools will have that asset. The school system calls that "parity," but I call it "expensive." For theatrical purposes, more than one school could share a theater. But, to be cost effective, that theater would have to be in a school, not a stand-alone structure. And you are never going to sell Loudoun county parents on the idea that someone _else's_ kid goes to a school with a theater, but _their_ kid doesn't. So, they _all_ have theaters that _no one_ uses. What makes it even worse is that it is typical for a school to open with hundreds of empty seats, then have its population grow to the point where it is overcrowded by hundreds of students. When that happens, where do they hold class for the excess kids? The auditorium! They close the partitions that turn it into three rooms and, when they do this, the teachers always turn on the house incandescents (instead of the ceiling fluorescents), because they like the color temperature better. Alas, those bulbs burn out fast and are hard to get replaced. More importantly, it means the "theater" is usually in use as a classroom, so the idea of adding dramatic arts to the school's curriculum is ruled out.

Interestingly, after I did "Alladin Jr" with the last year, and discovered that the teachers who taught class in the auditorium simply refused to use the fluorescents (and keep the incadescents dark), I subsequently did lights for the "drama camp" held in that school last summer. To turn switch between incandescents and fluorescents, you have to manipulate a wall switch that controls both _en masse_ (the incandescents are actually in nine sets, each with its own dimmer). Well, guess what? The support company that maintains the theater gear for the school system had updated the firmware in the DMX controllers they use, and it was _no longer possible_ to turn on the incandescents from the wall switch. It could only be done from a little touch-panel LCD display in the wings. Of course, no one told me this, so I was sure I had broken something for a few days, until it hit me ("aha!") that _this was a really good idea_. It stopped the teachers from using up the house incandescents, left them control over the fluorescents, and still let someone who knew how to do it (or, like me, cracked the code) control those incandescents via the DMX console. I'm sure the teachers who teach in there hate it, and some may even blame me for it (as they may have heard me grumbling about this during "Alladin Jr," but, heck, my son doesn't go there anymore and my director loves it, so I'm calling that win.

Interesting that you compared this to my computer background, Bill. When I was in college, my school did not teach computers (I went to a liberal arts college where, apparently, the thinking was that if anyone would pay you to do a thing, then they did not teach that thing at that college). So, we had one, but it was mostly for limited use by math and physics students, largely under their own self-direction. The machine was an IBM-1130, which was obsolete five years before I got there. What this meant was that it was very simple machine that hardly anyone used. Except me. I got the key to the computer room and was allowed to stay up all night with the thing if I wanted to. I learned a ton of stuff that way, and that's partly because the old machine was fairly easy for me to understand. If I'd started out with something more complicated like a VAX-11/780 (which we got during my senior year), I bet would never have learned as much.

Getting this chance to help out in the middle school is a lot like that. Yes, our dimmers-nothing-but-dimmers space is definitely no longer state-of-the-art. And that old Innovator 48/96 with its 3.5-inch diskette and text-only display has more gray hair than I do. But it's a great place for me to be starting out and trying to catch up with current technology. Administrative overhead makes it hard to get some things done, but at least I'm not competing with anyone else for the chance to be involved in productions there. So, much like my days with the IBM-1130, I'm learning as much as I am partly because it's all simpler than a state-of-the-art theater would be today.

I'll take that trade any day.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Dec 29, 2016)

IBM 360 in my school days - and all punchcard. Boy, was that JCL a PITA.

Your school practices don't seem that different than what I encounter, expect they don't as often reuse the plans - but then it seems that the buildings are much further apart in ages - like a new hs and the last new one was 30-40+ years previous. Parity remains paramount. East can't have more or less than West.

And than heavens the incandescent vs fluorescent house lights issue is fading (eh?) fast. LED does it all pretty neatly.


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## Stevens R. Miller (Dec 29, 2016)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> IBM 360 in my school days - and all punchcard. Boy, was that JCL a PITA.


Heh. When I even _tried_ to refer to the cards that had 1130 monitor commands punched into them as "JCL," the woman who ran the computer center openly scoffed at me.


> Your school practices don't seem that different than what I encounter, expect they don't as often reuse the plans - but then it seems that the buildings are much further apart in ages - like a new hs and the last new one was 30-40+ years previous.


Gracious, you live in a tranquil place, don't you? Loudoun has had the "honor" being named "the fastest growing county in America" more than once. Every year, we remain one of the ten fastest growing. We have about 60 elementary schools and over 30 middle and high schools, the majority of which were built after we moved here, sixteen years ago. That happens when your population curve looks like this:




"Parity" where technology is concerned is hard to maintain. Every time a new school is built, some new technology goes into it that was not available when the immediately previous school was built. Parents have been known to say that this reflects some kind of favoritism. As a member of the county board of supervisors from 2008 until 2012 (when that graph shows we grew by about 30%, almost all of which was in my district), I got to hear a lot of parents complain that the "rich" kids were getting all the good stuff in their schools, while the "poor" neighborhoods were left behind. "Rich" and "poor" are slippery concepts when you are also talking about the second-richest county in America. But, that's why every last school has to have its _own_ lighting console. The more cost-effective alterntaive would be to have a few of them, and take them from school to school when they needed them for a production. Alas, that would only mean parents would end up thinking their child's school never got to use it, while someone else's child's school got it all the time.

Did I ever mention why I got out of politics? Do I need to?

Very eager to be borrowing a Scene Setter-48 tomorrow. I'll post here on how that works out.


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## Chris Pflieger (Jan 3, 2017)

Did I read this thread right?

Stevens gets a CS20 the realizes it really is limited to 40 devices; not good enough for his 48 dimmer rack.
He then says that in reality, there's only 40 devices in the space.
Then game of "what about console X" begins.


Why can't you just run the CS20 with it only controlling the devices you actually have? It's a pretty good "future proof" console for when they get some better fixtures.


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## Stevens R. Miller (Jan 3, 2017)

Chris Pflieger said:


> Did I read this thread right?
> 
> Stevens gets a CS20 then realizes it really is limited to 40 devices; not good enough for his 48 dimmer rack.
> He then says that in reality, there's only 40 devices in the space.
> Then game of "what about console X" begins.



Yup, that's it in a nutshell.


> Why can't you just run the CS20 with it only controlling the devices you actually have? It's a pretty good "future proof" console for when they get some better fixtures.



Two reasons (mostly):

1) With 48 actual dimmers, I can't be sure the school won't ever have more than 40 lights. It doesn't _now_, but it was wired for 48 in the past, so it might have 48 in the future. (Buying new gear is almost unheard of, but _replacement_ gear has been known to appear.)

2) It's too complicated. We can't be sure a teacher will take "ownership" of it as a classroom exercise, there isn't always an adult volunteer who can master it, and the kids cannot be relied upon to figure it out themselves. (Maybe ETC knows something I don't about how much time people spend reading owner's manuals, but the CS20 doesn't even have one. It has some on-board videos and a fair-to-middlin' "help" system, but those aren't nearly the tutorial even a smart middle-schooler would need.)

Now, JimOC_1's idea, of loading 24 scenes into the sub-masters on a Scene Setter-48, works pretty well. I just demonstrated that approach to the drama coach, and she liked it quite a bit. Because the Scene Setter-48 will actually let you load 96 scenes by paging the sub-masters, the coach and I agreed that, if nothing else, we could come up with 24 generic scenes that would be sufficient to put on any show they might do. So, in a pinch, if a kid just couldn't be found who could handle programming the sub-masters, the coach could just select Page 4 (where our generic scenes would be kept), and call for her cues based on those.

Meanwhile, with ETC's help, I have figured that the Smartfade 1248 can do all the things the Scene Setter-48 can do, _and_ it can do a genuine dipless cross-fade and memorize a cue stack. ETC has also created some truly excellent videos that I believe a kid could use on their own. Further, ETC provides a freely downloadable editor that perfectly emulates the Smartfade 1248. I used that while watching the videos to learn how it works. Any number of kids could do that, for free, _at home_, and make themselves competent to do a show. If, in spite of how well it fits, no kid can be found to use the Smartfade's cue stack, it can still be used as a pre-programmed set of sub-masters, same as I described above for the Scene Setter-48.

As for getting better fixtures, well... let's just say that public middle schools don't tend to trade up their auditorium tech very often, and leave it at that (before smoke starts coming out of my nostrils ).


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## JimOC_1 (Mar 4, 2017)

I see you reported on another thread:

"set up and demonstrate a far cheaper, far superior lighting system for a local middle school. The PTA was impressed and donated the money to buy the new console. End result? The school system electricians took one look at it and said, "You're not allowed to use anything we didn't approve." The PTA literally had to take their donation back."

Sad to hear your efforts did not work out for the kids, teachers, and parents.
Was the reasoning use by the school system electricians useful for the PTA? That is if the PTA wanted to continue the project to help the school shows?


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## Jay Ashworth (Mar 6, 2017)

I dunno if they can buy used, but there have been a number of sub-1K SFs on eBay the last week or two...


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## RonHebbard (Aug 27, 2017)

Stevens R. Miller said:


> Yup, that's it in a nutshell.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 @Stevens R. Miller What's to know of this situation now in August of 2017?
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.


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## EdSavoie (Aug 27, 2017)

I too would love to hear an update.

We too have been taking a good look at the Colorsource 40, (Being a highschool auditorium looking to keep our current capabilities, we did need the extra channels) however given the ETC Pricetag, plus the absolutely insane local pricing in Ottawa for it, and that we MUST buy all of our gear through one of two approved vendors means it's a hard buy.

If you're wondering about the second vendor, we've all but blacklisted them with regard to our Lighting work because they tried peddling us a rather marked up Martin M-Touch system and imported AliExpress LED fixtures. As I think their expertise in Audio gear is excellent, I won't be publicly slathering their name over the forum.

Where does that leave us for consoles? Well, the current contender we've been looking up is the Strand 250ml, which we are now waiting on a quote to get back to us.


Ed's Note: Sorry if I'm a little incoherent at the moment, I can't presently tell if what I've written makes sense to anyone, my precious sleep still seems a bit lacking.


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## RonHebbard (Aug 27, 2017)

EdSavoie said:


> I too would love to hear an update.
> 
> We too have been taking a good look at the Colorsource 40, (Being a highschool auditorium looking to keep our current capabilities, we did need the extra channels) however given the ETC Pricetag, plus the absolutely insane local pricing in Ottawa for it, and that we MUST buy all of our gear through one of two approved vendors means it's a hard buy.
> 
> ...


 @EdSavoie When you wrote "Ed's Note:" was that a note to Editors or a note to or from Ed Savoie? Perhaps you wouldn't be quite so tired if you were writing in the first rather than third person?
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.


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## Stevens R. Miller (Aug 28, 2017)

A bumptious school employee declared that our working system wasn't "allowed" for some imaginary reason, so the drama coach sent it back. I don't know what they're using now, as I got fed up with the whole thing and told them I wished them the best, but they were on their own. My son is a sophomore in high school now, so I don't even have a student there anymore. Would have been glad to help further, but I'm not going to fight with obstreperous bureaucrats to do it. Been working with a lot of community theater companies lately that are typically very glad to get a competent techie's help. Lots and _lots_ of kids get into those shows, so it's turned out to be a successful way to help my area's young people.


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## EdSavoie (Aug 28, 2017)

The school probably has a very, very limited list of approved vendors you are allowed to buy from, they will refuse to allow school funds to be used outside these vendors unless you can fight them on it for a very compelling reason.

As for the note, that was from me. Again, I was rather tired


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## Stevens R. Miller (Aug 28, 2017)

EdSavoie said:


> The school probably has a very, very limited list of approved vendors you are allowed to buy from, they will refuse to allow school funds to be used outside these vendors unless you can fight them on it for a very compelling reason.
> 
> As for the note, that was from me. Again, I was rather tired


It was worse than that. The board we bought didn't use school funds. It was a donation from parents.

Compelling reasons?

1. The existing board was breaking down.
2. No one on staff knew how to operate the existing board.
3. The existing board was a $4,000 expenditure of taxpayer funds.
4. The new board was easy to use.
5. Kids could use it without teacher help.
6. The new board was a $200 expenditure of donated funds.

But this is what happens when a capital budget is not matched to maintenance line-items in the operating budget: you end up with a school that buys things it never uses, and staff terrified of anything ever changing. I've tried to meet with school officials and my school board member on this, but have had no success.


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## EdSavoie (Aug 28, 2017)

Wow, that's harsh. At least we are allowed to buy from anywhere if we provide the money*.

*So long as the bought equipment meets all regulatory certifications.


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## Stevens R. Miller (Aug 28, 2017)

EdSavoie said:


> Wow, that's harsh. At least we are allowed to buy from anywhere if we provide the money*.
> 
> *So long as the bought equipment meets all regulatory certifications.



And I think that's perfectly fair. But our school system is impenetrably armored about such things. Effectively, the rule is, "Unless our one-and-only approved vendor tells us we must have it, we do not buy it. If they do tell us we must have it, we buy it from them and only them. After that, no one is authorized to use it for any purpose."

Example: The same middle school has an architectural control processor is part of its system (mostly so wall switches can control the house lights, I think). The ACP is controlled by a small LCD touch-screen. The screen can lock out some of the wall switches. Well, somehow, someone had fussed with it in such a way that, indeed, the wall switches were locked out and the house lights were up full with no way to dim them. A couple of hours before she was going to open the play for this summer's drama camp, the drama coach called me up to ask if I remembered how to deal with this problem (since I was the one who coped with it last summer, being part of the camp itself at the time). I told her how to do it, but that the ACP screen tends to be locked behind a clear cover. She said that was no problem as she had gotten the janitor to pick the lock for her.

Let that sink in: The authorized drama coach was on the verge of having to cancel a show because the ACP control panel was locked behind a door for which no one at the school had the key, but she saved it at the last minute by having a janitor pick that lock and calling the only person (who has no official connection to the school) she knew who could tell her how to operate the ACP controls (since no one at the school knew how to do it). These are the same people who wouldn't let us buy a cheap, working alternative to this system so the kids could actually learn something.

It's things like that which ultimately caused me to just give up on them and offer my help to others.


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## RonHebbard (Aug 28, 2017)

Stevens R. Miller said:


> And I think that's perfectly fair. But our school system is impenetrably armored about such things. Effectively, the rule is, "Unless our one-and-only approved vendor tells us we must have it, we do not buy it. If they do tell us we must have it, we buy it from them and only them. After that, no one is authorized to use it for any purpose."
> 
> Example: The same middle school has an architectural control processor is part of its system (mostly so wall switches can control the house lights, I think). The ACP is controlled by a small LCD touch-screen. The screen can lock out some of the wall switches. Well, somehow, someone had fussed with it in such a way that, indeed, the wall switches were locked out and the house lights were up full with no way to dim them. A couple of hours before she was going to open the play for this summer's drama camp, the drama coach called me up to ask if I remembered how to deal with this problem (since I was the one who coped with it last summer, being part of the camp itself at the time). I told her how to do it, but that the ACP screen tends to be locked behind a clear cover. She said that was no problem as she had gotten the janitor to pick the lock for her.
> 
> ...


 @Stevens R. Miller Perhaps scariest of all: These are the people educating, shaping and molding the logical thinking of your children. Remember: They're the paid professionals your tax dollars are paying. 
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.


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## urban79 (Aug 28, 2017)

Stevens R. Miller said:


> A bumptious school employee... ...but I'm not going to fight with obstreperous bureaucrats to do it



I may have had to look them up, but thanks for two new excellent adjectives/insults!!!!


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