# Building a fly system!!?



## headcrab (Oct 12, 2009)

I will start off by saying that I am not trying to build a fly system, but that someone who works at my school is. As far as anyone knows, he is not a licensed rigger, he is using components that are not and rated for rigging like standard polyethylene rope and EMT, and he is using substandard methods. For instance, he ran the rope through 1/2" EMT with an insane amount of bending without pulleys so that the load can be flown from a convenient place, which is also a location where the load can't be seen! Also there are two ropes for each pipe so you have to hold both ropes at the same time...
I will report this situation to the administration but if that doesn't stop this deathtrap, where do I go?


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## photoatdv (Oct 12, 2009)

Assuming that this guy is doing more than raising and lowering a bedsheet backdrop, he's crazy! So to start with what is he rigging from this (not that it really matters... but still I'd like to know)?

2nd, he's nuts! I have seen unrated 'rigging' (non-theatre) fail spectacularly. If I can find it I'll post a picture of what happened to a trebuchet we built last year (using rather large amounts of weight) and you can show that to him. Needless to say on various engineering projects I have proven that 'it looks strong enough' is not always (or even usually) the case (we were following proper safety procedures for this kind of testing... including NOT rigging it over peoples heads!).

Ropes WILL break... especially if stressed by improper rigging methods like no pulleys. Unrated carbiners are plenty strong enough for your keys, but can fail under as little as a 20lb dynamic load. Steel pipe can bend, break, deform, ect. All of these are putting the crew and actors LIVES IN DANGER!

Fly systems are dangerous enough when properly built. I have seen a near miss where someone could have been killed-- with a trained rigger 20 feet away (how the hay this happened is irrelevant). They are DEATH TRAPS when not built properly. Email someone from JR Clancy and explain the setup (in more detail) and I'm sure they will cover their rear with a nice long this-is-ridiculously-dangerous email that you can take to admin.

If admin doesn't work, go to parents, the school board, even the school's insurance company! Parents have a lot of influence when it comes to safety matters. Also send a registered letter to the the risk management officer or an administrator which requires a signature. This should make them nervous because it would make them easy lawsuit fodder if anything happened.

Phase 2 (if the previous doesn't work) call building inspectors, fire marshal (I doubt his 'rigging' is flame retardant), board of education, ect.

Failing all of this (and I really mean try this first) you could call news media. They LOVE people putting kids in danger.


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## cprted (Oct 12, 2009)

headcrab said:


> I will report this situation to the administration but if that doesn't stop this deathtrap, where do I go?


Far, far away.


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## Footer (Oct 12, 2009)

You are on the right track. Get your parents involved as well. I know that sucks to do, but get them involved. Your doing the right thing. Let everyone know exactly how unsafe this actually is.


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## headcrab (Oct 12, 2009)

I don't currently know what is planned to be hung from these, but I will find out tomorrow. Even worse is that he TIED the rope to the EMT. I reaally expect that to stay in place...


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## gafftapegreenia (Oct 12, 2009)

Well depending on the knot used it might be acceptable.......in a completely different situation of course.


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## museav (Oct 13, 2009)

Definitely best to first go through the school administration, maybe with your concerns submitted in writing, and hope they take it seriously. If that does not get satisfactory resolution or response, then possibly to the local building inspector, permit office, etc. You can play innocent, for example saying you were just curious about what was happening and were looking to find out more about it. When they find nothing on record that may result in some questions being asked and start the ball rolling. 

While the rigging itself is definitely a concern, another concern may be the actual structure and whether it was designed for the loads and stresses the rigging would impose. An analysis of the structure with the loads being applied to it by any rigging and of the attachment of the rigging to that structure may be required to be performed by a licensed Structural Engineer.


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## headcrab (Oct 13, 2009)

I found today that for this show at least, they plan to hang muslin backdrops. However, they also seem to intend it to be permanent, in which case they might try to hang heavier things in the future if I don't stop this.


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## Van (Oct 13, 2009)

Make it stop ! If you need it you can contact me personally and I will forward a letter to your Superintendant or Principal, The same letter I sent to the Band instructor and Principal and Superintendant of a local High School who decided to fly a drum major over the audience with climbing gear. 
Innovation on the part of students and faculty, particularly in tough financial times, is great, but in this case it's ill-advised, and mishandled. IMHO


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## Sayen (Oct 13, 2009)

Take pictures as soon as possible, and use them in your arguments. Photograph the methods used. The people you have to convince don't typically know anything about this sort of thing, and documented evidence goes a LONG ways. Take people like Van up on their offers if necessary. 

Try the innocent approach. Email the administration, copy the district lawyer, and link to this thread or another professional resource online. Link the dozens of threads on CB all citing the importance of having this done by professionals. I went through a similar argument recently, and I sent fifteen or so links all to professionals sharing my opinion when I wanted to lock out a local theater's fly system due to significant safety concerns. Attach the photos.

_You_ are likely covered at that point, if you were ever liable as a student, but don't stop since lives are at risk. You can also call local dealers, who are usually more than happy to get involved since they want the business. I know several of our local rigging companies who are more than happy to submit professional emails stating their opinion on such projects.


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## headcrab (Oct 13, 2009)

I just talked to the director who I can assume had something to do with authorizing this project. He assumed that it is safe because it is being done by someone who pretends to know more of it than he does. Then he told me that he was assured that anything more than 100Lbs would be too much load. I think anything more than 0Lbs would be too much.


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## Van (Oct 13, 2009)

Ask him if it ok if I drop a 10 lbs weight onto his head from the height that the unit in question will be hanging. If he doesn't go for that, then he shouldn't go for this stupid configuration!


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## photoatdv (Oct 13, 2009)

Yeah, a hundred pounds is too much. 

There does seem to be a grey area between what is "rigging" that needs to be done by a competent person, and small decor (like taping up party decorations), but it's like 99+ pounds below this...


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## gafftaper (Oct 14, 2009)

First of all EXCELLENT work taking this seriously. This is VERY dangerous. 10 pounds dropped from any decent height is enough to kill. What fools. 

Where are you at? Maybe someone around here either lives nearby or knows someone who does. Getting a local professional involved would be great. Are there any universities or even large theaters in your area? Getting your parents involved is critical. I'm sure that any of the CB Senior Team or CB Mods would be happy to call your parents and explain why it's so dangerous. Just send a PM with your phone number and the best time to call to the CB staff member of your choice. 

Pictures would help us help you. 

Do your best to stay off the stage if they have hung a pipe or ANY weight on that so called rigging system. Even the weight of the pulleys... or whatever the nut job is using could be dangerous depending on the height... about how high is it? 

In the end if you don't get help from the local administration, one call to your district's risk management office should do the trick. However this will get a lot of people at your school in trouble so it's better to try to handle it locally first.

If none of this works I bet we can talk What Rigger? into flying in to rip the thing down with his bare hands... maybe even his teeth if he get's worked up enough.


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## photoatdv (Oct 14, 2009)

Where IS What Rigger? I'm surprised we haven't had a rant from him yet...


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## gafftaper (Oct 14, 2009)

He's been really busy at work lately. I sent him and e-mail to point this thread out. I'm sure he'll be along to kick some butt soon.


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## headcrab (Oct 14, 2009)

They told me today that it was approved by the fire department.  That still doesn't make it safe...


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## Van (Oct 14, 2009)

headcrab said:


> They told me today that it was approved by the fire department.  That still doesn't make it safe...


 Yeah it doesn't block a Fire Exit, What do they Care ? 

This is starting to get me really worked up.


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## cprted (Oct 14, 2009)

What neck of the woods are you in Neadcrab?


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## gafftaper (Oct 14, 2009)

The Fire Marshall knows less about rigging installation than your "T.D." All he knows is if it's going to cause a fire or not. 

Headcrab's in Fort Collins Colorado. Anyone know anybody in that area who we can call in as a real expert? 

Head have you talked to your parents about this? Would having them talk to one of us help?


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## gafftaper (Oct 14, 2009)

Head send me your e-mail address in a P.M. I called my friend Peter Maurelli sales guy at Barbizon in Denver (shameless plug ). He knows lots of technicians in your area. Peter said if I send him your e-mail he would help try to get you in touch with someone who can help. Hopefully we can talk someone who knows what they are doing into coming into your theater, meeting with your teacher, and saying that this is terribly dangerous and should be taken down.


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## What Rigger? (Oct 14, 2009)

Praise Allah, this is the dumbest thing I think I've ever heard. 

Sorry gang, it has been a slammed year at work...I haven't gone away permanently, but someday i'll get a chance to breathe again and chime in here.

Anyhoo...as usual, all the good answers have already been given. Yes, I'd like to destroy that 'system' with my teeth. Or a flamethrower, whichever's clever.

I might encourage this- here's the ETCP listings for Colorado, under rigging.
ETCP - The Entertainment Technician Certification Program


Good luck! Rig right or die! Seriously.

And holler at me if you need more help.


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## gafftaper (Oct 14, 2009)

I'm hopeful that my guy at Barbizon can help us contact someone in the area to stop by the school. I'll keep you guys informed. I've got Head's e-mail address... although I think I need his name and school name as well so I'm not writing this message, "Hi, I know a student named Headcrab in Colorado who needs help." Yeah. Anyone named Headcrab needs help.


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## Van (Oct 14, 2009)

I was saving my " Letter to Headcrabs Principal" unitl I heard back on your contact Gaff. But now that you mention it, "Dear Headcrabs Principal...." Doesn't sound like such a great pre-amble.


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## icewolf08 (Oct 15, 2009)

Unfortunately it is a seven hour drive from SLC to Fort Collins, so I can't help there. Hopefully Peter will come though, he's a good guy. Other than that, I think the important bases have been covered.


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## headcrab (Oct 15, 2009)

It seems that the powers up in the clouds saw the light of day and chose to kill the project. Yay, I can walk across the stage again...


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## Van (Oct 15, 2009)

YEAH ! I'm dancing for you Headcrab!


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## photoatdv (Oct 15, 2009)

Hallelujah!

Good... so we won't be reading about your school in the news (because of an accident).

Out of curiosity... Headcrab, who all actually talked to them?


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## gafftaper (Oct 16, 2009)

That's great news Head!! 

Now can you do something about that kid flying the hot air balloon around your town? Is there something in the water there making people go crazy?


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## Van (Oct 16, 2009)

gafftaper said:


> That's great news Head!!
> 
> Now can you do something about that kid flying the hot air balloon around your town? Is there something in the water there making people go crazy?


 
I thought that might have been the kid that came up with the Build your own fly-system in the first place. Then I realized the kid was only six, then I realized that, developementaly, that's how old one needs to be to come up with that idea anyway.


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## What Rigger? (Oct 17, 2009)

Stoked for Headcrab!

Balloon boy shoulda hired me- I coulda done it on wire rope.


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## AdamBair (Oct 22, 2009)

If all else fails call you local fire department for an inspection and voice your concerns to them. They can shut down an unsafe theater in five minutes. But *first* go through school administration, and work with them to get the proper equipment installed correctly.


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## Clifford (Oct 22, 2009)

As was explained earlier in the thread, the fire marshal wasn't concerned with the 'rig.' Their main priority is making sure it won't start or spread a fire, and making sure everyone can get out if it does.


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## MaddMaxx (Oct 23, 2009)

Good for you that you are on top of this. Get someone in Admin who is responcible for liability insurance involved. You have a reputable compay that has done work in Fort Collins on the Poudre High School and you could ask that they give a safety consult:
Geiler & Associates, LLC, 12355 E. CORNELL AVE · AURORA, COLORADO 80014
HOME OFFICE: (303) 766-7100 · FAX: (303) 766-7104
COLORADO SPRINGS: (719) 635-6600
MINNEAPOLIS / ST. PAUL: (612) 529-7100
EMAIL: [email protected]


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## Chris15 (Oct 25, 2009)

Clifford said:


> As was explained earlier in the thread, the fire marshal wasn't concerned with the 'rig.' Their main priority is making sure it won't start or spread a fire, and making sure everyone can get out if it does.



Yes but if they are doing dodgy rigging, chances are there will be a variety of other things the place could get shut down for...


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## museav (Oct 25, 2009)

Chris15 said:


> Yes but if they are doing dodgy rigging, chances are there will be a variety of other things the place could get shut down for...


Chris, one of the earlier posts was:

headcrab said:


> They told me today that it was approved by the fire department.  That still doesn't make it safe...


So I think the point Clifford was making in response to Adam's post was that apparently the Fire Marshal had already inspected the facility. By making it an issue to the Fire Marshal after they had already inspected it you might be perceived as questioning them and that probably wouldn't help.


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## Chris15 (Oct 25, 2009)

My thought had been that the fire inspection cleared this "rigging" but we don't know what, if anything, else was inspected. Or does an inspection *always* cover *everything* when your government departments come out? (Ours leave something to be desired nearly all the time...)

So the exit widths may be wrong, inadequate provision of emergency lighting, yada yada yada.


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