# Affordable automation for very lightweight scenery?



## Joshualangman (Aug 28, 2016)

Hi all!

Here’s a fun question. Please note: this is for preliminary brainstorming purposes only. It’s for a show that hasn’t even entered preproduction, and I’m just exploring some first ideas. I will not attempt to implement any automation myself, as I am not a scenic or automation designer.

Suppose I want to have a variety of differently sized fabric panels hanging around the playing space, to be used as projection surfaces. These panels would be very light, and would be suspended at various heights. I want each panel to be able to individually fly in and out, as well as to various predetermined heights, and I want these vertical moves to be programmable. I would be mapping video to the panels, so the positions would need to be precise and consistent.

This would involve some kind of automation system. Here are the parameters. Each panel would need to be on its own independent “channel” (set of winches). Suppose that there are eight or so panels. The cueing software would need to be able to be triggered from QLab, for coordination with video. Oh, and the show will tour.

I was looking at Creative Conners, and their products seem fantastic, but the price for one of these vertical hoists (http://creativeconners.com/products/spotline-kits) would swallow our entire budget. But I think that given the extremely light weight of these panels, such a hoist would be overkill — am I right? Are there similar hoists that could do what we would need and be programmed via the Creative Conners software or other similar software, that are designed for much lighter loads and might be more affordable? Is there any way to do this safely for under $10,000? Under $5,000?

I will bring a set designer and automation expert onboard if we decide to pursue this idea; just trying to get a feel for whether it might be doable at all.

Thank you!


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## DRU (Aug 28, 2016)

How wide and how long will these panels be? 

My first thought on reading your description is to make individual automated roll drops similar to these (http://www.thernstage.com/products/roll-drops/). You could make them yourself or have a third party build them.


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## Joshualangman (Aug 28, 2016)

Hm, interesting. The problem I foresee with the roll drops is that I may want to do thigs like fly the panels all the way in so that they're almost touching the deck. In this case, maybe the panel is only 4' high, and I would need to be able to see over the top of it. I don't think there's a way to make roll drops that can have empty space above the top edge, correct?

(Dimensions are completely up in the air and would vary panel to panel, but for planning purposes, say each panel might be 4 x 6 ft.)


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## Joshualangman (Aug 28, 2016)

For reference, here is a very rough sketch of kind of what this might look like. You can see that there will need to be empty space above each panel, at least in some positions.


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## soundman (Aug 28, 2016)

Joshualangman said:


> I was looking at Creative Conners, and their products seem fantastic, but the price for one of these vertical hoists (http://creativeconners.com/products/spotline-kits) would swallow our entire budget. But I think that given the extremely light weight of these panels, such a hoist would be overkill — am I right? Are there similar hoists that could do what we would need and be programmed via the Creative Conners software or other similar software, that are designed for much lighter loads and might be more affordable? Is there any way to do this safely for under $10,000? Under $5,000?
> 
> I will bring a set designer and automation expert onboard if we decide to pursue this idea; just trying to get a feel for whether it might be doable at all.
> 
> Thank you!



Under 10K a panel or for the whole project? Maybe you could get it down to around 2K a unit if you had free labor and shop access but that wouldn't include power and control.


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## Joshualangman (Aug 28, 2016)

Thanks, soundman, I was asking for the whole project. Of course, the exact number of panels, their dimensions and materials, and the heights involved, and all undecided. So all very hypothetical. But I have no experience in automation and want to get a rough sense of what something like this might cost.


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## soundman (Aug 28, 2016)

and 2K is really on the low end. It sounds like what you want is http://sgps.net/4-static-rtsingle-yoyo.htm is renting an option?


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## Traitor800 (Aug 28, 2016)

Joshualangman said:


> Hm, interesting. The problem I foresee with the roll drops is that I may want to do thigs like fly the panels all the way in so that they're almost touching the deck. In this case, maybe the panel is only 4' high, and I would need to be able to see over the top of it. I don't think there's a way to make roll drops that can have empty space above the top edge, correct?
> 
> (Dimensions are completely up in the air and would vary panel to panel, but for planning purposes, say each panel might be 4 x 6 ft.)


A roll drop is going to be the way to go for this. To get the floating look you can attach the screen to the drum with webbing stingers. We've done this a few times for the exact same look.

Also in order to really match the video and the automation together your going to need either a lot of time or a media server with the appropriate plugin running. Matching the AVD curve of an automated axis is extremely time consuming if you are just using a linked go. You really need to pull in at a minimum Velocity and Position but it would be best to also factor in Accel and Target position. All this is definitely doable but you may need to take a look at the number of axes or your budget.


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## Joshualangman (Aug 28, 2016)

Thanks, all. Yes, renting may be an option.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Aug 29, 2016)

5-10 people, cord, pulleys, and cleats works too.


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## PeterV (Aug 29, 2016)

Full Disclosure: I work for Creative Conners and think we offer some awesome automation gear. We _may _be able to help with something other than our Spotline. Do you have an idea of the overall travel distance and speed you would like from these panels? I know you say "light weight" but can you give me a guesstimate of the load we are talking about. I can think of a couple of options depending on your specifics and time frame. Feel free to reply here or send me a private message. You can also give me a call @ 401-289-2942 and we can discuss in greater detail.

Peter Veal
Creative Conners


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## Joshualangman (Aug 30, 2016)

Hi Peter, I'd love to talk further with you. Expect a message or call from me tomorrow. Many thanks.


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## JChenault (Aug 30, 2016)

Would it be possible for you guys to post a summary of your discussions. Sounds interesting


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## RonHebbard (Aug 30, 2016)

Joshualangman said:


> Hi all!
> 
> Here’s a fun question. Please note: this is for preliminary brainstorming purposes only. It’s for a show that hasn’t even entered preproduction, and I’m just exploring some first ideas. I will not attempt to implement any automation myself, as I am not a scenic or automation designer.
> 
> ...


Joshua; A few thoughts for you in no particular order:
The software, sensors and control hardware will be quite similar wether you're hoisting a couple of pounds or a couple of thousand. Certain costs will be somewhat similar / close to fixed.
In some ways, heavier loads are a little easier to deal with in that they'll maintain tension on cables, minimize slack and span horizontal runs without sagging. All of these (seemingly small) details aid with reducing backlash and improving accuracy. Gravity can be your friend when hoisting, less so when traveling horizontally. Your very light projection surfaces MAY require frames to maintain taughtness. When rolling a projection surface, you'll likely need a bottom pipe to aid with taughtness and pulling out wrinkles. Lightweight materials, gauzes, scrims and screens are subject to the whims of air currents from ventilation systems, passing actors and nearby dancers. If they're being flown into a densely packed grid, any amount of sway MAY cause them to come up under something comparatively heavy. If your supporting cables are only designed to accommodate the extremely light weights, you're going to have unanticipated grief when they drift and attempt to lift a 2,000 pound LX pipe in passing. No matter how light your load is, you don't want it falling out of your 'sky' mid performance. Having one of two lines fail leaving your load whacking peoples' heads from the side isn't anything you want to experience either. Properly engineered hoists include programable load sensing in their designs and capabilities.
"Yo yo" drums, in addition to winding straight up without the inherent side travel of a horizontal, grooved, drum, have another feature / problem in that they'll wind faster as the cable builds up (effectively increasing their diameter) and descend slower as they unwind. This is easily accounted for in a servo controlled, positioning, drive but not something most people think about when they figure they can build their own automation gear with supplies from Home Depot. All problems can be dealt with but safe solutions cost money AND THEN you want to synch speeds, and positional accuracy, with your projections. I don't want to come off as too much of a nay sayer but do realize what you're trying to accomplish. Economical options are out there but they'll likely exceed your budget. You may want your "automation expert on board" BEFORE you go much further in your planning. I believe most of the foregoing posts are politely trying to brace you for this. Perhaps I'm just being a little more blunt about it.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.


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## kicknargel (Aug 30, 2016)

Daydreaming, because I don't know even quite enough about projection mapping to be dangerous: Instead of trying to precisely control the movement of the screens to sync with projection, could the projections, by way of a camera, sense and adjust the mapping to the positions of the screens, in a live manner?


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## sk8rsdad (Aug 30, 2016)

Probably. One approach would be to set up a DLP projector to cover the entire area the panels will be in then dynamically mask out the areas where the screen isn't. The math gets a little wonky since the screen moves in a a conic section through the beam, and you'd have to find a program that accepts dynamic input, but it's possible.

I'm not sure how to reliably get feedback about where the screen is, especially when unlit. Perhaps some battery powered IR LEDs mounted on the panels and a Wiimote sensor. What do you know... you can find anything on the internet: http://wiimoteproject.com


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## TheaterEd (Aug 31, 2016)

DRU said:


> How wide and how long will these panels be?
> 
> My first thought on reading your description is to make individual automated roll drops similar to these (http://www.thernstage.com/products/roll-drops/). You could make them yourself or have a third party build them.


Anyone have any clue what the price range for something like this is? Just wondering if its something I can save up for or just a 'pipe' dream (pun fully intended).
Our Proscenium is around 45' wide by 16' tall. Are we talking $20k, $10k, $5k, or $2k? Just looking for a very rough ball park.


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## StradivariusBone (Aug 31, 2016)

This got me thinking, and this is purely hypothetical- what if you used a winch that pulled on a length of wire rope that was anchored to the grid on one end, but looped down through a pair of blocks attached to the scenery? Problems I can see would be leveling the scenery, a lighter piece would definitely wobble as it moved up and down, but control of the height could be managed by the amount of cable the winch pays out. I don't have any projects that need something like this, but was just wondering if this would be viable or catastrophic.


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## Joshualangman (Aug 31, 2016)

Just wanted to note that Peter from Creative Conners was very helpful, and I'll post some updates when I have a more solid idea of where I'm headed with this. Thanks to everyone who's chimes in.


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## RickR (Aug 31, 2016)

The simple rigging option is to make each position/scene it's own drop on it's own batten, assuming you have a fly set. You would have some focusing issues if you need more than a few pipes worth or you have large spacing. You're going to have those regardless, but this method might make it worse. So it's more a transfer of problems from rigging to projection.


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## DRU (Aug 31, 2016)

I just opened my new Rosebrand catalog, and I saw that they now sell Wahlberg Motion Design automation devices. They have a scenery rotator (http://wahlberg.dk/shop/motion/rotator/) that you might be able to hook up to a custom-made roll drop, or they have winches (http://wahlberg.dk/product-category/motion/winch/) that are designed to lift lightweight objects. The only concern I have is that they are DMX controlled, which breaks the unwritten rule of not using an open-loop control system, especially DMX, for automation.


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## soundman (Aug 31, 2016)

StradivariusBone said:


> This got me thinking, and this is purely hypothetical- what if you used a winch that pulled on a length of wire rope that was anchored to the grid on one end, but looped down through a pair of blocks attached to the scenery? Problems I can see would be leveling the scenery, a lighter piece would definitely wobble as it moved up and down, but control of the height could be managed by the amount of cable the winch pays out. I don't have any projects that need something like this, but was just wondering if this would be viable or catastrophic.
> View attachment 13696



Ive done it on a large projection screen. But instead of deading off to the grid the line ended up going to another winch. We did this so if the main winch faulted the backup could take up or let out enough line to complete the move in either direction. 

Rigged as drawen it will be very tippy. Each of our winches had two lines so we were able to rig it so it wouldnt titer totor. Or a shared balance point.


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## Malabaristo (Sep 1, 2016)

DRU said:


> .The only concern I have is that they are DMX controlled, which breaks the unwritten rule of not using an open-loop control system, especially DMX, for automation.



Actually it's a written rule and part of the DMX standard--except the language is that DMX is not appropriate for safety-critical applications. The justification in this case is that the load is small enough and/or soft enough to be inherently safe. In other words, it's completely acceptable to use DMX for automation as long as the automated device is incapable of causing serious injury (regardless of the DMX input).


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## BillConnerFASTC (Sep 1, 2016)

That 50 kg winch seems capable of causing serious injury.


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## soundman (Sep 1, 2016)

I would feel better if there was some sort of Estop system. Some of the smaller winches would need to be re zeroed after a power cycle so simply killing input power would not work for those.


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## sk8rsdad (Sep 1, 2016)

soundman said:


> I would feel better if there was some sort of Estop system. Some of the smaller winches would need to be re zeroed after a power cycle so simply killing input power would not work for those.



Well, according to the manual some models can be (are?) equipped with an Emergency Stop. However, the manual has some inconsistencies about how it should be wired and might benefit from some proofreading.


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## Malabaristo (Sep 2, 2016)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> That 50 kg winch seems capable of causing serious injury.



What if the limits are set so that the range of movement for that 50kg object passes through a space that nothing else ever enters? (...too high to touch people, no moving scenery or anything else that might interfere, etc...) A mechanical hoist failure could still potentially cause the load to fall, but gravity doesn't obey an E-stop anyway. It would take some thoughtful risk evaluation, but there are some circumstances where it could be a reasonable choice. Obviously if the safety plan is, "It's fine as long as these two things don't move at once..." then a spotter with a deadman switch would be the better choice.

To a certain extent I'm playing devil's advocate here: I agree that the 25kg and 50kg hoists have a lot more potential for being used unsafely than the smaller versions.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Sep 2, 2016)

First, I am only considering overhead lifting. If its not overheads, I'll agree other rules apply.

So, are there situations where something like this could be applied safely, where spotters and limit switches prevent movement and absolutely assure no failure? Probably. But limits and redundant limits please, as the control doesn't know where it is and it it blew by top limit, might not be long before termination on the line hit an obstruction or the drum, and down it came. I think I could find other failure modes that without the benefit of a closed loop control system might be a hazard.

I'm also worry that the average RoseBrand customer may not be quite so experienced and discerning, and not quite fulfill the requirements for a "qualified person" in making these judgments and design decisions. Does a person who is not qualified even recognize and know enough to know they aren't quaified?


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