# Asking for the ultimate donation



## FACTplayers (Jun 11, 2012)

I'm from a small town without a real theatre. Our school is bursting at the seams and very recently one of the members of our town offered to donate an entire high school! For some reason (unknown to me) the administrators/school board/someone turned it down. Our community theatre would like to approach this donor (we know who it is) and ask for a theatre separate from the school. 

A couple things we are unsure of:
1) How to make the initial contact. Should we directly approach him/her and ask for the donation or should we invite him/her to our show and ask after? We are holding a hors d'oeuvres social gathering for owners of local businesses.

2) We would need everything. How much would land would we need and how much would a theatre cost to build? (roughly) I'm positive I can pull some strings and have some of the many contractors in the area help do work for less than the average cost.

3) Taxes and additional funding?

4) Is this feasible and a good idea? The theatre won't be used every weekend for shows. But the school band and choir will hold their concerts there (instead of being in a gym...). What other types of attractions could we bring in?

5) Anything else I am missing. I know there must be lots.


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## DuckJordan (Jun 11, 2012)

This is a big no, Soliciting for donations is not professional at all. While it would be nice to have a theater there is probably a good reason the school board turned it down. Honestly, Don't get involved.


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## FACTplayers (Jun 11, 2012)

DuckJordan said:


> This is a big no, Soliciting for donations is not professional at all. While it would be nice to have a theater there is probably a good reason the school board turned it down. Honestly, Don't get involved.



I respectfully disagree. It can't hurt to ask.


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## Sony (Jun 11, 2012)

It was most likely turned down because trying to privately fund a public building is a HUGE ordeal and full of enormous problems. If the school was a private school then it would be a completely different story.


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## FACTplayers (Jun 11, 2012)

Sony said:


> It was most likely turned down because trying to privately fund a public building is a HUGE ordeal and full of enormous problems. If the school was a private school then it would be a completely different story.



So that would make funding this theatre much easier and do-able then...?


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## josh88 (Jun 11, 2012)

Not really? Easier? Sure, but much easier, no. I agree that approaching somebody like that isn't really professional. If you had the time, invite this person to everything. I AM at a private school and that's how we do it, get them to see some stuff and get them interested and drop hints about how you need more, when you can. Then may e you can work into donations. To do a real theatre space it can be real expensive and I say do it right from the start. You could save money by building a cheaper building and then converting it to what you want, but if it's new construction it's dumb do do it wrong and adapt. Personally I wouldn't touch this with a 50 foot pole. I need money for my space because we need upgrades but this isn't how I'd approach it. There isn't a quick solution, and even I this person agreed you'd be looking at a huge undertaking as a person who probably doesn't know how to build a theatre. I've lived through a college building a new space and even with consultants I don't think the average joe ( no offense) should take this on.


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## Footer (Jun 11, 2012)

Added to that... who is going to operate the building once it opens. Power, insurance, maintenance, exterior care... all cost. The upfront costs are nothing compared to operating costs. 

Cartmanland (Season 5, Episode 6) - Full Episode Player - South Park Studios


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## LavaASU (Jun 11, 2012)

If you have a recognized and well established 501(3)(c) arts/performance organization in town perhaps talk to them to see if they would be interested in trying to get the funding to build a multiuse venue for their events as well as school and other community events? That would get around the public school issues as non-profits have their own established procedures for accepting donations (though I doubt a donation of a multimillion dollar performance venue would really be easy on the administrative side for anyone). You'd/whoever'd be a lot better off by inviting the person to events and perhaps inviting them (and others at the event) to a fund-raising event from there. It's a lot more acceptable to be seeking donations from willing attendees at a fundraiser .


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## derekleffew (Jun 11, 2012)

FACTplayers said:


> ...How much would land would we need and how much would a theatre cost to build? (roughly) I'm positive I can pull some strings and have some of the many contractors in the area help do work for less than the average cost. ...


Guessing a minimum of five acres, not including parking.

I doubt one could build a fully-equipped, 300-500 seat theatre, including support spaces, for less than 10 million. The Feasibility Study alone will run (again, guessing) 50K-250K.


FACTplayers said:


> ... I'm positive I can pull some strings and have some of the many contractors in the area help do work for less than the average cost. ...


At this level, you're not asking for a donation of a few sheets of drywall. Do you really want a contractor who has never built a theatre before? Do you have an Architect, various Engineering Firms, and Theatre Consultant lined up?

Then there's the operating costs, and management infrastructure... Start by reading a book Amazon.com: Building Type Basics for Performing Arts Facilities (9780471684381): Hugh Hardy, Stephen A. Kliment: Books or two on the subject.


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## FACTplayers (Jun 12, 2012)

Thanks for all of your input. You are bringing up concerns that I am stuck on too. The maintenance cost is a huge issue that I don't know how to address. I do agree, the best bet is to invite him/her to all of our events and go about it that way. A cold approach most likely would end in failure. On the plus side, the potential donor is not common knowledge, so it's not like everyone and their mother is asking him/her for donations. 

I really wanted to know how much it would cost. I know this is a bit old, but it cost $9M in 2002. I'm not saying that $10M is that far off, but here's to hoping there is a light at the end of this seemingly pipe dream. Beverly Arts Center


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## josh88 (Jun 12, 2012)

Still one of the biggest questions is who maintains and runs it after the fact? who gets paid, who pays the bills. Assuming you managed to actually get it built then what? where does the insurance come from, there are all kinds of concerns. Derek mentioned a feasibility study. Just because your current set up is "bursting at the seams" doesn't automatically mean the area can support a real theatre and have it make money. This is something you really need to sit down with a consultant about to have guide through.

It sounds like if you're not using it every weekend for productions and you mentioned the school concerts happening there (would you charge them?) That MIGHT cover operating costs, but then where does the rest of the money come from? You could bring in music groups and the like, but again there's a potential staff position, who finds these people?


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## JohnD (Jun 12, 2012)

Talk to the mayor and members of the city council.
Is there a community theatre group?
Is there a multi-purpose community center?


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## FACTplayers (Jun 12, 2012)

josh88 said:


> Still one of the biggest questions is who maintains and runs it after the fact? who gets paid, who pays the bills.



That was one of my big concerns, too. How much does it typically cost to maintain a facility like this? I know it isn't cheap by any means. I feel like a lot of you think this idea is already set in motion. It's not. It's simply an idea and a dream. Yes, we would charge the school to hold band/choir concerts, but I doubt that will come close to paying the bills.



JohnD said:


> Talk to the mayor and members of the city council.
> Is there a community theatre group?
> Is there a multi-purpose community center?



We can bring it up to the city council. They might have more suggestions for us. Instead of buying our own land, we might be able to do something with the VFW park? Also, we are the community theatre. And no, there is no multi-purpose community center.


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## marmer (Jun 12, 2012)

I'm guessing the school board turned it down for some fairly good reasons. Whatever they were, similar concerns are probably still there for your project. For this kind of money, non-profits usually have development staff; this is very, very complicated to administer. And construction costs have risen dramatically. Nine million in 2002 is more or less going to be closer to twenty million now.


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## Nelson (Jun 12, 2012)

Can you find out why the school board turned it down?


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## StNic54 (Jun 12, 2012)

This is a very big idea - you may be better off divorcing yourself from the school board altogether and finding people who are interested in developing a new community theatrical space. If your angel donor isn't interested in theatre or the arts already (and they don't already have a personal relationship with you or other arts supporters) then this will be a tough venture. Remember since 2002 the prices of everything from consultants to construction permits to building supplies has gone through the roof. All of your costs will vary from state to state, too, in terms of permits, operations, ordinances, etc. You should also begin researching fundraising, because you'll be knee-deep in it long before you ever break ground.


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## museav (Jun 18, 2012)

Footer may also know a bit about this but there is a very nice arts center in this area where a non-profit group creating an arts center in conjunction with another non-profit organization providing the land and funding from a private donor, with a bit of politics thrown in, became an absolute mess and eventually seems to have benefited one group at everyone else's expense including leaving some local performance groups without their expected new home home and putting them out of business. On another project I was involved in, a school performance space also received significant private funding and that became a battle of two groups with different, and often conflicting, approaches and objectives. The point is that such situations can be very tricky and there may indeed be reason why the school board passed that may or may not be relevant to other groups.

A few questions based on your comments:

What leads you to believe the donor would consider such a venture? Is there some past history with them or a history of supporting the arts to suggest they would be interested?
What is your vision for the venue? What supporting research, information, studies, etc. do you have to show the need for and viability of such a venue?
Have you done any research on potential property and any related utility, zoning, access and other issues?
What makes you believe that the school band performances or any other school or public events would occur at this venue if it is not associated with the school or city/county?
Who do you envision owning and operating the property and facility? Would that be your theater group, a separate entity created for that purpose, the donor or someone else?
What makes you believe you'll be able to get design and construction professionals to offer their services for less than normal value and is that a feasible or desired approach? This is one area where things such as awarding contracts to companies based on anything other than an unbiased and acceptable bid process can potentially lead to major problems.

In general, what can you do to make it be a matter of showing common goals and a plan to realize those goals rather than it simply coming across as asking for them to fund some general dream? That may come across a bit harsh but chances are you will have to be very harsh on yourself in assessing how your dreams and the realities of the situation can be made compatible, or at least not conflicting.


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## FACTplayers (Jun 21, 2012)

museav said:


> A few questions based on your comments:What leads you to believe the donor would consider such a venture? Is there some past history with them or a history of supporting the arts to suggest they would be interested?



The only reason the potential donor might be interested is because he/she does not want to send his/her children to the current school (hence the reason for wanting to donate a new building). Each year the school loses many students because there is not a real theatre or arts program, which is mainly due to not having the facilities. Other than speculation, there is no history suggesting this donor is even interested. The donor is the funding, but not the reason for the idea.



museav said:


> What is your vision for the venue? What supporting research, information, studies, etc. do you have to show the need for and viability of such a venue?




No formal research. Again, this idea is simply that: an idea. For the past 20+ years I have lived in the town there is always a problem when it comes to anything with the arts (band, choir, theatre, etc) because there is no performance space available. 



museav said:


> Have you done any research on potential property and any related utility, zoning, access and other issues?



No. However, it is a small farm community so from past experience if the town is on board then the town board will be more willing to help. Plus, there is plenty of land in various towns around with little to no zoning restrictions. Finding the land is not the part that concerns me.



museav said:


> What makes you believe that the school band performances or any other school or public events would occur at this venue if it is not associated with the school or city/county?



I have talked with the band directors and the choir directors and all of them have told me they would perform at a theatre if we had one. They rent out nearby school's theatres each year for concerts, but most of the time they hold them in a field house. Trust me, there is a need. 



museav said:


> Who do you envision owning and operating the property and facility? Would that be your theater group, a separate entity created for that purpose, the donor or someone else?



Ideally our community theatre would own and operate the facility. 



museav said:


> What makes you believe you'll be able to get design and construction professionals to offer their services for less than normal value and is that a feasible or desired approach? This is one area where things such as awarding contracts to companies based on anything other than an unbiased and acceptable bid process can potentially lead to major problems.




Our town is filled with small contractors willing to help. I've worked with many of them before and I am currently employed with a construction management firm large enough for this task. I know that no one will be extremely below cost, that doesn't make sense, but a theatre would be much less expensive than a new school, and if I am right, the potential donor wants to make the community more well-rounded. This is speculation, of course. 


Thanks everyone for the feedback. I know it won't be an easy task, but this is our community theatre's goal. We don't have a time frame since we are still relatively new, but it's definitely one of our goals. I'm not the type of person to rush in to asking the donor cold without a plan, and that's why I wanted to let the community here shed some light on the idea.


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## josh88 (Jun 21, 2012)

Another idea to get him to potentially approach you is start the planning stages of this and hold some meetings to discuss needs. Maybe put something in the paper or try to get a story written about how you'd like to fill the need but
Don't have the funding


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## lightingguy1 (Jun 22, 2012)

FACTplayers said:


> Our town is filled with small contractors willing to help. I've worked with many of them before and I am currently employed with a construction management firm large enough for this task. I know that no one will be extremely below cost, that doesn't make sense, but a theatre would be much less expensive than a new school, and if I am right, the potential donor wants to make the community more well-rounded. This is speculation, of course.




Do you have any theater design consults willing to help? Non-theater people building an entertainment venue, usually doesn't end well.


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## FACTplayers (Jun 22, 2012)

josh88 said:


> Another idea to get him to potentially approach you is start the planning stages of this and hold some meetings to discuss needs. Maybe put something in the paper or try to get a story written about how you'd like to fill the need but
> Don't have the funding



This is a great idea. We will have to start thinking of a campaign if we want to move forward with this idea.



lightingguy1 said:


> Do you have any theater design consults willing to help? Non-theater people building an entertainment venue, usually doesn't end well.



I'm not exactly sure what you mean? A theatre design consultant will only help in the planning stages.


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## chausman (Jun 22, 2012)

FACTplayers said:


> I'm not exactly sure what you mean? A theatre design consultant will only help in the planning stages.



I think Museav would probably disagree.

museav said:


> I just had an experience that while not the first of its kind, made me think it might be good to share.
> 
> The situation involves the audio system for a theater in a county performing arts center that I had designed as part of the facility design. For more than a year I have been asking when we would see the the speaker rigging Shop Drawings required by the Specifications, meanwhile the facility construction has been proceeding.
> 
> ...


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## museav (Jun 22, 2012)

I wrote one of my long winded responses but it was lost in the Ether so here's a somewhat shorter version...


FACTplayers said:


> I'm not exactly sure what you mean? A theatre design consultant will only help in the planning stages.


That is not accurate and may reflect why such parties could be very beneficial.

There may also be some misconceptions regarding to local contractors. From direct experience, if you have good local Contractors they may be invaluable. However, to get a successful result you will also need Architects, Consultants, Contractors, etc. that are familiar with this particular type of project and facility. One of the projects I previously referenced used local Contractors and ended up with those Contractors later having to subcontract other qualified parties and losing money by doing so, the resulting lawsuits went on long after the venue opened. If you think Bogen mics and amps are acceptable substitutions for Shure, Sennheiser and Crown, as was initially proposed by the local Contractor on that project, then maybe not having a consultant involved during construction and using local Contractors is viable, but if that is not what you had in mind then you may want to reevaluate the actual practicality of such approaches.


On a more general basis, it's often not enough that you think the project is viable or believe that you know what it should be, you generally have to be able to support those views with informed research and numbers. That is why projects like this often have two phases. Typically, the first step would be some form of feasibility study that assesses the existing market and needs, the potential options, the potential operating costs and revenues, etc. and presents a summary of what might be appropriate and some idea of what it would cost. That study may also look at legal, economic, real estate and business aspects such as who should build, own and operate the facility and whether it is better to adapt an existing space than building from scratch. This information, assuming it supports the project being a viable effort, would then usually be the basis for any subsequent construction plans and related funding efforts. And it is very common to pursue funding for this initial effort before addressing funding for the actual venue design, construction and operation, especially since some times the studies turn out to indicate the reality is not as viable or practical as you hoped or thought.

Have you researched the relevant relationships and any relevant plans of some of the other parties? For example, the band and choir directors might be thrilled with the idea of a new performance venue but they may not be aware of everything else going on or be in a position to make decisions on where they perform. Might the school still be pursuing expansion or a new building through other funding and see this as being counterproductive to their efforts? Or might they perceive this as undermining them or trying to make them look bad and thus cause them to oppose rather than support it?

Finally, put yourself in the potential donor's place. If someone came to you for a donation like this what would you want to know? Would you want a good idea of exactly how any donation would be used? Would you want to know you are contributing to something that is viable and likely to be seen through to the end? Would you want to be sure any financial support would go to the intended purpose and not be diverted elsewhere? Would you want to know the dollar amount associated with the request? Think of what you would want to know if it was you being asked and be prepared to present that information. Present a dream, but also present a realistic perspective of how it can become a reality.


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## josh88 (Jun 22, 2012)

A short addition to what Brad said, In the building my alma mater just built, the design consultants were there the entire time. Meetings with architect and builders etc just to help keep everybody on the same page and make sure nothing got forgotten and to make sure that there was always a theatre background voice there with the building a space background that the faculty didn't have.


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## len (Jun 22, 2012)

I couldn't say whether or not to do this. The only question I'm qualified to answer (I've bot and sold real estate for years) is that your land cost is IMPOSSIBLE to calculate without knowing the neighborhood. Land in Chicago can vary from roughly $10M an acre to $50,000 an acre. Other suburban and rural areas can be just as varied, but the upper end isn't as high. Your area will have huge swings in value, too. But you'll need to find something that's improved (water, sewer and electric at the street), or that can cheaply get it there, can be zoned for this type of use, isn't contaminated with oil, chemicals, etc., isn't a historic or other site (like an Indian burial ground), is close to everything, etc. There's HUNDREDS of factors in getting the right site. Maybe in the city center there's a building you could convert. But really, it's not something you can be advised about here.


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## tdeater (Jun 26, 2012)

Some ideas for operations cost numbers.... Our electrical bill runs around $4000 per month for our 400 seat house and attached black box theater. It varies anywhere from $3000 to $7000 depending on how many shows we are doing, and how much air conditioning we need. (This month is going to be bad...) Our heating bill runs around $2000 to $3000 per month in the winter, but on the up side, the electrical bill goes down.

Just in those bills, it costs our building $.16 or so per minute to exist. That is not counting phone bills, insurance, any payroll, other consumables, maintenance costs, etc. We would not exist without donors and local foundations helping. So, you would want to make sure you can secure that sort of funding too before setting out on a construction project.


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## JChenault (Jun 26, 2012)

Speaking from the standpoint of someone who gets occasional requests for grants - a few pointers.

1 - Be prepared. Your donor might be very interested in your project, he might not be - but you need to be very crisp and clear with him. Put together a written document / brochure that talks about the project. 
2 - Have a measurable objective. As a donor I would respond much better to 'We want a grant for 20,000 to do a feasibility study for a new theatre. Instead of 'We are looking for 200,000 to 800,000 to renovate some building that we have not found yet. As a donor I will look at what you did with the first grant to see if I want to give you more later.
3 - What are you ( or your community theatre ) going to do to make this move forward. I understand that you may not have money to put into the project, but what do you expect to contribute?
4 - Convince me that this project will have legs. If we build a building, who will run it for the next 15 years? What kind of track record do they have in running a theatre? 
5 - Don't be afraid to make the pitch. Invite him to see a show, or find an opportunity to chat with him about what you are trying to do. Get to know him as much as possible so you can see what his interests are. If he has the funds to invest, and thinks that it makes sense, and gets excited about it - he will be looking for a partner to do the hard work ( that's you and your organization) while he provides the money ( or most of it ). 
6 - Giving away money is harder than it look like from the other side. Your donor is looking for someone who has an idea he can believe in, has the competence to pull it off, and has the long term structure to see that it keeps going. Those folks are rare and if you find one of them you ( as a donor) tend to continue to support them. 
7 - Continue to touch base with them. We give money to a local theatre group. Whenever we go to the theatre, the managing director makes it a point to come up to us, say hello, and keep the lines of communication. We continue to support that theatre from year to year. Another group got a contribution from us once, and did not take that proactive stance to make us feel welcome and appreciated - we don't continue to fund them.


And finally - there has been a lot of discussion about theatre consultants - what I have not seen is a discussion about a development person. This is the person who will write all of the grant applications. Who knows about raising money for a capital campaign, and knows how to talk to your donor. At this point in the process, I would argue that a development person is at least, if not more important, than a theatre consultant.

Good luck.


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## museav (Jun 28, 2012)

JChenault made a number of very good points and just to expand on a couple...


JChenault said:


> Have a measurable objective. As a donor I would respond much better to 'We want a grant for 20,000 to do a feasibility study for a new theatre. Instead of 'We are looking for 200,000 to 800,000 to renovate some building that we have not found yet. As a donor I will look at what you did with the first grant to see if I want to give you more later.


While this can be somewhat of a "chicken and the egg" situation, I agree that going in with a more specific goal or request is usually going to meet with much more success than asking for something open ended and/or ill defined. Put simply, which would you be more likely to support; a) someone with a defined goal and budget, b) someone with a solid general concept that is asking for funding to develop a more informed response or c) someone asking you to commit to a nebulous dream with an open ended cost? Not many donors can or would risk option C.


JChenault said:


> Giving away money is harder than it look like from the other side. Your donor is looking for someone who has an idea he can believe in, has the competence to pull it off, and has the long term structure to see that it keeps going. Those folks are rare and if you find one of them you ( as a donor) tend to continue to support them.


Very true! I have yet to meet a donor, or at least one without some ulterior motive, that wants to support or be associated with a white elephant. You'll likely benefit from giving them a reason to trust you and believe in you before you ask them to financially support you.


JChenault said:


> And finally - there has been a lot of discussion about theatre consultants - what I have not seen is a discussion about a development person. This is the person who will write all of the grant applications. Who knows about raising money for a capital campaign, and knows how to talk to your donor. At this point in the process, I would argue that a development person is at least, if not more important, than a theatre consultant.


This may reflect a related issue. There is a natural tendency to focus on the physical manifestation of the results, in this case the actual property and the systems it contains. But donors and grant providers may be more interested in what it represents and does than what it is. Why do you want to build anything? What do you plan to do there? Who may it benefit and how may it benefit them? What other funding sources may be involved? And be be ready to support your responses with specific examples, numbers, commitments, etc., which may mean getting some assistance from someone with expertise in that area.


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## FACTplayers (Jul 21, 2012)

Thanks for all of the positive advice/criticism. That should be the goal of this forum; so again, thank you.


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## 2mojo2 (Jul 21, 2012)

Gentlemen, you have overlooked the obvious solution. 
Persuade/cagole/beg Mr. Fabulously Welloff to serve on the board of your theater.
Give him a part in a play (did you ever see Shakespeare in Love?).
Help him see the vitality and the value of the arts from the inside.
Hell, let him stage manager a few events.

You did imply that you have a community theater separate from the high school, didn't you?

Enlist Mr. Welloff's help in solving the facility problem. 
If the numbers work out, and he is interested enough, you could end up with a Fabulously T. Welloff Performing Arts Center.
If Mr. Welloff is a real businessman (not just an idle heir) then his knowledge will be as important as his money in evaluating the theater's prospects, working out a construction plan and planning for operations.

Good luck!


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