# Stage Doors & Truck Docks. . .



## RonHebbard (Apr 26, 2020)

Possibly we could hear from some of our unemployed IA 1 brothers while Broadway's DARK. 

How many times have you heard venues complaining about access to their Stage Doors and Truck Docks; 
You've likely heard 'em wine more than once: 
Can't get the 2nd 53' in 'til the 1st one pulls out. 
Had to drop each 53' in our dock(s) and park their cabs elsewhere to clear the street for traffic. 
Gotta wait for the cab to return 'n pull the 1st trailer out before the 2nd can get in: And then there are the other 9 53's.

The garbage truck / bin dumper can't get in 'til the beer truck leaves. 
The sewer in the ramp of our below grade dock gets clogged; it rains, the water collects & stagnates then the mosquitoes use our dock as a breeding pond. 
Winter visits early, the mosquito pond freezes and our manager's Mercedes is frozen in place. 

Wuzzah wuzzah POOR Babeez! 

PLEASE Local 1 brothers; tell our huddled masses about the quaint access to your "Seven Sisters' Stage Doors then expand on the joys of loading in / out of any of the "girls". 
Surely we've a few IA 1 sisters 'n brothers lurking here. 
Toodleoo! 
Ron Hebbard


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## BillConnerFASTC (Apr 26, 2020)

High on hit list must be Grady Gammage Hall at ASU.


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## techieman33 (Apr 26, 2020)

Anyone with a dock at all is spoiled IMO. Our building was opened in 1940 and we don't have a dock at all. Everything comes down off a ramp or gets forked off next to a set of doors into the building. Then it gets pushed into the house and onto the orchestra pit where it's raised to stage level.


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## RonHebbard (Apr 26, 2020)

techieman33 said:


> Anyone with a dock at all is spoiled IMO. Our building was opened in 1940 and we don't have a dock at all. Everything comes down off a ramp or gets forked off next to a set of doors into the building. Then it gets pushed into the house and onto the orchestra pit where it's raised to stage level.


*@techieman33* Do you whip your A F of M musicians or do you have a lift? [Ooooooh. ] 
Toodleoo! 
Ron Hebbard


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## danTt (Apr 26, 2020)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> High on hit list must be Grady Gammage Hall at ASU.


At least the Gammage has plenty of parking lot and good weather. Hershey on the other hand...


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## Amiers (Apr 27, 2020)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> High on hit list must be Grady Gammage Hall at ASU.



Theatres. 

Of all the crappy docks around town it would be the Gammage. They don’t even back a truck down it they just unload up top and push everything down. 

The Herberger has a small 2 truck dock that can’t fit a trailer and truck. 

Scottsdale Arts has 1 long dock with hardly any room to get anything in and out of a trailer due to storage restraints. 

Hotels

A close second is the Paradise Ballroom at the Camelback Inn literally brand new and has NO Dock. 

The Tapitio has a parking lot in front of its drive to the dock. So if you can’t drive well or the lot is half full you unload up top and push down a 55 degree grade both ways. 

Desert ridge holds 2 trailers with a maybe 6’ pad that is shared with a hotel trollies. So 3’...

The Casino is nice and indoors but rarely sees action. Kind of sad. 

The Phoenician also has small landing pads due to shared hotel carts and narrow passages to the ballrooms.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Apr 27, 2020)

Amiers said:


> Of all the crappy docks around town it would be the Gammage. They don’t even back a truck down it they just unload up top and push everything down.



And curved IIRC. 

When I was starting out in theatre I never expected to have to know how to back a trailer into a dock, but I learned what makes it possible and easier versus a b---h.


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## Amiers (Apr 27, 2020)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> And curved IIRC.
> 
> When I was starting out in theatre I never expected to have to know how to back a trailer into a dock, but I learned what makes it possible and easier versus a b---h.



Yep bleeping curved. So if you got a bad caster half way down. You are screwed. I worked one show there and that was enough for me.


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## TimMc (Apr 27, 2020)

Our PAC was designed in 1967, built in '68 and opened in 1969. It's round, with 4 auditoriums, one of which doubled as exhibit space. The load in was via the basement, curved ramp access, and your trailer better not be over 38ft (there's a long story about the 48ft trailer that got stuck down there...). When designed, there were no 53 ft semi trailers and a dock would have broken up the circular presentation.

Eventually the city added more exhibit space to the south end and built a proper dock but access to the main PAC building is a long-ass push and the Convention Hall needs to be empty to reach its orchestra pit lift to get goods to the stage level.

The circular nature of the facility means the stages are trapezoidal and all back up to a central service core, with a freight elevator to the basement. Items pushed from the dock go to the Convention Hall pit lift at floor level, are brought up to stage level and then pushed through the central service space and onto the Concert Hall stage.

If the Expo Hall or its dock are in use, the shows have to unload in the front of PAC, through a glass wall (slides out), and to the pit lift. It's a shorter push but the plaza in front of the building has a 10% slope, so the trailers are fun to unload. Fork lifts have "fun" dealing with this, too.

Until a few days before the novel corona virus hit, our City was planning on redeveloping a 3 city block area to build a new PAC, separate convention center, and lease out land for new hotels and other business use. Not quite sure what the status of that is but right now the City is using the PAC basement as... well, they aren't really saying (meaning Emergency Management space) and the Expo hall was turned into an ambulance and paramedic gear disinfection station... They officially closed the buildings and revoked all our prox cards and CyberKeys. My IATSE Local has office space in the building and have been locked out. We had less than 24 hours notice.


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## TimMc (Apr 27, 2020)

Another "back down and turn" access was in Huntington, WV at Marshall University field house. It's been 25 years since I was there but I recall about 6 inches of clearance on either side of the truck from the HVAC duct work, and getting the turn at the bottom was... challenging. IIRC we backed down to the most level point and unloaded rather than try to make the turn. I wouldn't be surprised if the field house has been replaced.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Apr 27, 2020)

Century II Performing Arts & Convention Center - one of Izenour's. Oh my.


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## TimMc (Apr 27, 2020)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> Century II Performing Arts & Convention Center - one of Izenour's. Oh my.


Some things were done right. Much was myopic. The budget was, of course, overrun prior to completion and some important things eliminated. And knowing the history was why I asked you a few months ago if you'd already taken your last, per-retirement project...


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## BillConnerFASTC (Apr 27, 2020)

I renovated one Izenour project - that's enough. I see they plan to replace. Notto be pessimistic but I'm guessing the pandemic will delay that well past my "best if used by" date.


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## MRW Lights (Apr 27, 2020)

I'm not officially a local 1, but I have enough experience from the shop and running around with friends consulting in the city on projects that I've seen my fair share.... my first reaction is if by dock you mean 40 something street at some ungodly hour of overnight when we can get a street permit to be able to unload a truck we can start there.... that's getting a truck to the venue on time after it getting stuck in traffic in the tunnel for who knows how long because the bridge was under construction and was going to take longer. Then the forkliftS that's right multiple to get it off the truck and onto the sidewalk, please the sidewalk and not the street.... 

After that it's not so bad. It's an exact art and a science to build everything in the shop as much as possible to fit it through the "dock" door. What most passer by's wouldn't realize is that they often walk right by a door that leads directly onto stage or maybe into a light lock and then onto stage, but rare. Most houses have a custom ramp that gets them up from the sidewalk to deck height and then you're in. Most of the Broadway houses exist before lifts and most decks are actually at "street" level and the houses were carved out inside lowering the seats so that the stage appears elevated. 

The houses to watch out for are the offstage venues that have been shoehorned into who knows where. Theatre Row and New World Stage are examples of venues we all work in that we wish we didn't have to load anything in / out. Everything EVERYTHING is below grade and only accessible via lifts. By lifts I mean it fits in the lift, or you get your gym workout in in carrying it down the stairs or build it when you get there. Always prepare for stairs. There are always stairs.


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## RonHebbard (Apr 27, 2020)

MRW Lights said:


> I'm not officially a local 1, but I have enough experience from the shop and running around with friends consulting in the city on projects that I've seen my fair share.... my first reaction is if by dock you mean 40 something street at some ungodly hour of overnight when we can get a street permit to be able to unload a truck we can start there.... that's getting a truck to the venue on time after it getting stuck in traffic in the tunnel for who knows how long because the bridge was under construction and was going to take longer. Then the forkliftS that's right multiple to get it off the truck and onto the sidewalk, please the sidewalk and not the street....
> 
> After that it's not so bad. It's an exact art and a science to build everything in the shop as much as possible to fit it through the "dock" door. What most passer by's wouldn't realize is that they often walk right by a door that leads directly onto stage or maybe into a light lock and then onto stage, but rare. Most houses have a custom ramp that gets them up from the sidewalk to deck height and then you're in. Most of the Broadway houses exist before lifts and most decks are actually at "street" level and the houses were carved out inside lowering the seats so that the stage appears elevated.
> 
> The houses to watch out for are the offstage venues that have been shoehorned into who knows where. Theatre Row and New World Stage are examples of venues we all work in that we wish we didn't have to load anything in / out. Everything EVERYTHING is below grade and only accessible via lifts. By lifts I mean it fits in the lift, or you get your gym workout in in carrying it down the stairs or build it when you get there. Always prepare for stairs. There are always stairs.


 *@MRW Lights* THANK YOU for a GREAT START.
Please go on; explain about the joys of parking your 7 x 53' out in the boonies; down to earth (paved parking level) corral ing everything, double diagonal'ing many items into too MANY 24' or 26' box trucks with their rear doors not quite closed Red flags and Police escorts to get them in and out of downtown.
Add the the off duty police you're paying to keep close watch on the:
9 Pinball machines
7 Motorcycles
and the host of other
(shiny attractive trinkets the urchins of the night are ITCHING to help you carry)
props you're trying to keep within your allowed length of sidewalk.

*The sheer number of IA one lads* you're paying to unload from your now endless parade of double diagonally packed box trucks with their loads hanging out the back and Red Flagged being escorted in and out of town by teams of NYPD motorcycle cops.

ADD the other herd of IA lasses and laddies who're picking from amongst your props on the sidewalk and carrying them into the Shubert's lobby and marshaling them there for the 3rd herd of local 1's finest, the more senior who remain in the theatre where they and their shoes remain dry rather than soaked by the rain the rest of us are working in.
The 1/4" ply + tarps protecting the lobby's 'publicly presentable ' carpet from the feet of the poor DRENCHED 'lesser Goddesses and Gods who are working out in the rain all night.
Don't forget the fourth crew of even more insignificant offspring who're out in the boonies off loading your seven 53's into the endless parade of 24's and 26'ers driving laps to 'n fro' a parking lot in New Jersey and the HEART of Broadway.

Don't forget how many extra hands you're paying to avoid pushing any one person past their mandatory Meal, Coffee, and washroom breaks.

Add the carefully coordinated parade of vending vehicles travelling to 'n fro' to make sure everyone can have their breaks including Gluten Free and other allergic requirements. The additional motor cycle cops circling in teams of two police escorting the vending trucks. 

Appreciate the hours you began paying the crews in New Jersey who're eventually the first to end their calls.
Realize some of them have sufficient seniority to drive into downtown and 'bump' their kin to maximize their incomes.

Do all of this in the heart of Times Square where the New York Times are running their 12 or 14 presses NON STOP 24 / 7 with their own parade of trucks driving laps toting paper to feed their presses AND their second parade of trucks to rush papers to news distributors and airports.

*To put a little icing on the cake*:
The Shubert's long serving and VERY senior Head House Carpenter had retired and worked his last call the day before.
His replacement was a SENIOR gentleman ~75 who was only ever referred to as "Doc".
I NEVER saw "Doc" other than when he rolled in hours after the rest of us, sat it his comfy recliner USLC drinking coffee for several hours, then departed for the remainder of his day.
Doc' had done many, MANY, *MANY*, load ins over the course of his career.
This was Doc's 1st load in in his new theatre. An ENDLESS parade of very senior Local 1 members paraded through to 'Rag the excrement out of Doc' on the occasion of his 1st load in; 1st in his new theatre, but clearly not Doc's first.
The endless parade of visitors attending to pay their respects included senior members with surnames like Altman, Feller, and other brothers you've possibly heard of.
Try loading your show into the Shubert when the ever growing circle of stools, office chairs, stacking chairs, et al was expanding exponentially as visitors dropped by with mysterious little brown bags for Doc' to dilute his coffee and then hung around for 2 to 3 hours to "Help" Doc' through his first load in. Deck space was at a premium, not even the senior local 1 members assigned to Head our various departments were willing to crowd Doc's circle of willing "Helpers".

It was fun and a great tribute to Doc'; Oh how much valuable stage space Doc's enclave occupied.
Then, almost as suddenly as they appeared: The ENTIRE gathering dispersed leaving only 2 or 3 dozen chairs, along with brown bags, beer can ash trays, and the remnants of a great party behind. 

That sorta covers loading in and thank you *@MRW Lights* for breaking the ice; if a geezer from North of Donnie's walls told this tale, fewer than zero readers would find it even remotely credible.

Now, PLEASE, someone post a little about the Stage Door's of the Seven Sisters, the interesting path to them and even more interesting accommodations afforded their Stage Door guards.
PLEASE! BRING IT ON!!


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## tjrobb (Apr 27, 2020)

Our house was built in the Vaudeville era, and the stage and loading doors were a few feet above the alley. A few decades back, they raised the alley. Now, there are stairs to the stage door, and a fairly flat ramp to the deck. I want to hug whoever on the city made that happen, our shop is in a remote building and we produce everything that plays (no traveling show, it's community theatre); we know EXACTLY what fits thru that door. Not that we've ever made an error...


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## RonHebbard (Apr 28, 2020)

tjrobb said:


> Our house was built in the Vaudeville era, and the stage and loading doors were a few feet above the alley. A few decades back, they raised the alley. Now, there are stairs to the stage door, and a fairly flat ramp to the deck. I want to hug whoever on the city made that happen, our shop is in a remote building and we produce everything that plays (no traveling show, it's community theatre); we know EXACTLY what fits thru that door. Not that we've ever made an error...


 *@tjrobb* 
Expanding upon building to fit through stage doors: 

When you're with an automation and scenery shop in Canada building for theatres in Germany and London, England; you don't want to ship anything across the Atlantic that's not going to fit through the doors when it arrives at the venue. 

Each time we built for a remote venue including Broadway, our owner sought accurate dimensions for the smallest doorways we'd encounter anywhere along the way. 
A wooden frame of the exact dimensions was erected immediately inside our shop up against our load out door; if it wouldn't pass through the frame (diagonally was fair game) there was Zero to be gained by loading it in a truck or ocean going shipping container. 
Toodleoo! 
Ron Hebbard


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## soundman (Apr 28, 2020)

MRW Lights said:


> Most houses have a custom ramp that gets them up from the sidewalk to deck height and then you're in. Most of the Broadway houses exist before lifts and most decks are actually at "street" level and the houses were carved out inside lowering the seats so that the stage appears elevated.



While not a Broadway house MSG does not follow that model at all. The arena floor is 5 stories up. Last summer we had 20 forklifts split among 3 trades to get our show from street level to the top of the ramp. While not ideal if you stay out of the way and give clear direction the gear will get where it needs to go. I think we were about an hour over our normal out there. I know some people hate the Barclays Center and it's elevator and turntable but with a little planning and VIP guest management it hasn't been an issue for me. Maybe 10-15 minutes slower than average with 15-20 trucks.


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## MRW Lights (Apr 28, 2020)

soundman said:


> While not a Broadway house MSG does not follow that model at all. The arena floor is 5 stories up. Last summer we had 20 forklifts split among 3 trades to get our show from street level to the top of the ramp. While not ideal if you stay out of the way and give clear direction the gear will get where it needs to go. I think we were about an hour over our normal out there. I know some people hate the Barclays Center and it's elevator and turntable but with a little planning and VIP guest management it hasn't been an issue for me. Maybe 10-15 minutes slower than average with 15-20 trucks.



MSG Entertainment and their properties, plus Barclays Center and The Met stand in a category all their own. We could spend an entire thread (and I think there are some here somewhere) on each of these venues and their specific technologies individually developed for all of them. Though my favorite may always be Radio City. Technically not the oldest by name... but the oldest "longest operating" of its kind. The one thing they all share in common is that they are each the best at operating their own venues.


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## RonHebbard (Apr 28, 2020)

soundman said:


> While not a Broadway house MSG does not follow that model at all. The arena floor is 5 stories up. Last summer we had 20 forklifts split among 3 trades to get our show from street level to the top of the ramp. While not ideal if you stay out of the way and give clear direction the gear will get where it needs to go. I think we were about an hour over our normal out there. I know some people hate the Barclays Center and it's elevator and turntable but with a little planning and VIP guest management it hasn't been an issue for me. Maybe 10-15 minutes slower than average with 15-20 trucks.


 *@soundman* I appreciate your mention of MSG. "Doc" was officially IA 1's designated carp' for our load in: 
A MUCH younger gentleman arrived VERY shortly after we had a chain gang running laps from the lobby to he stage edge and humping things up WITHOUT trashing any upholstered seat in the process. 
The MUCH younger gentleman was ~32 - 35 and had been "sprung" from MSG, told to serve as "Doc's" hands, arms and legs for ~4 hours then high tail it back to MSG; he willingly stayed past his quitting time to make certain our In was completed to everyone's satisfaction. 

Even though I was the lowly 2nd assistant LX ( Lead spot op' called cues to the other two spots) I liked the fellow instantly: He was polite, organized, gung ho, your other IA 1 lads instantly jumped to attention and carried out his orders. As he was making his exit, I said: "All I can think of is my spot and stool are too low to see out the window of your spot booth." 

Up to the rear of the 2nd balcony we dashed: He looked at what we'd brought, took a few measurements and assured me he'd have an 8 or 9 inch riser in place by the time I reappeared the next morning. I left my spot, its stand, and my stool outside the booth when I left. 
When I rolled in the next morning his custom built riser measured to fit the available floor space was in situ with a note: "Please wait 3 hours for the glue to dry" and signed his name. 

Good guy. Knew his name at the time and probably remembered his name for a year or two. 
Three decades later, 1990's a blur. If perchance you're able to connect with one of your MSG predecessors, assure him he's not been forgotten. 

Neither has a young black gentleman named Ron Altman: Same given name as mine and who could forget Altman. Young Ronnie Altman was another of IA 1's REALLY good guys. 

Another of your MSG guys was my SL / HR spot op' atop four frames of scaffold for several weeks (I was able to stay with the show for 6 weeks past opening as the fellow IA 1's Production LX wanted to slot into my position was under contract in another house for 5 weeks past our opening night.) 
We had Zero spot cues for the first 45 minutes of Act 1 and thus a lot of time for chit chat. 
Your mate from MSG provided the best comeback I recall. 
We'd been talking about how people work their way in to our end of the business. 
I explained we had two steel mills in town working 3 shifts 24 / 7 thus there were always off shift steel workers available for grunt work at odd hours: after enough years, they work their way in by osmosis. 

Your MSG mate came right back with: 
"Ya, it's sorta like that over at the Gardens, every now and again one of our guys gets hitched to one of our Rockettes. When they have a kid with his looks and her brains, we just gotta take him in. What else can ya do?" 

He totally blind sided me, the concept of comparing off shift steel workers in Stelco / Dofasco to sons of Rockettes totally upset my equilibriium. 
Thanks again Mr. MSG / *@soundman* for rekindling great memories. 
Toodleoo! 
Ron Hebbard


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## soundman (Apr 28, 2020)

I've only played Radio City twice, the first was on a music tour that was mostly playing clubs. It was nice to have plenty of wing space. Sadly I was sick as a dog, and there are few better spots to be unable to stand up for a load in the NYC. I was the rigger/kinesys guy for that tour and after the floor was marked I told the head carp and head elec that I was sick with food poisoning and I wasn't being disrespectful but once my rolling chair was off the truck I was going to sit in it and direct load in from offstage right. They loved it, and said they wished more road guys would stay out of their way. Tour Buses can't park at the venue so I spent any off time napping in a chorus dressing room on like the 5th floor.

The secound time was for a massive corporate and getting to chat with Eddy for a few days was nice but things were never calm enough for both of us at the same time for him to give me a tour.


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## RonHebbard (Apr 28, 2020)

soundman said:


> View attachment 19951View attachment 19952View attachment 19953
> 
> 
> I've only played Radio City twice, the first was on a music tour that was mostly playing clubs. It was nice to have plenty of wing space. Sadly I was sick as a dog, and there are few better spots to be unable to stand up for a load in the NYC. I was the rigger/kinesys guy for that tour and after the floor was marked I told the head carp and head elec that I was sick with food poisoning and I wasn't being disrespectful but once my rolling chair was off the truck I was going to sit in it and direct load in from offstage right. They loved it, and said they wished more road guys would stay out of their way. Tour Buses can't park at the venue so I spent any off time napping in a chorus dressing room on like the 5th floor.
> ...


 *@soundman * My apologies for transposing acronyms; I'd interchanged MSG with RCM (and then there's DMX and RDM; No, no;; forget I typed that.) 
Toodleoo! 
Ron Hebbard


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## themuzicman (Apr 30, 2020)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> High on hit list must be Grady Gammage Hall at ASU.



Don't forget it's sister theater - the San Jose Center for the Performing Arts! Another curved ramp from hell. We always get them docked on the IN, but on the out we get a 2nd fork op who is just the shuttle up the curve and keep the trucks on the street. Frank Lloyd Wright made things look so so pretty, but damn did he not understand how trucks need to back into a theater and how to put enough bathrooms in a place!


TimMc said:


> Another "back down and turn" access was in Huntington, WV at Marshall University field house. It's been 25 years since I was there but I recall about 6 inches of clearance on either side of the truck from the HVAC duct work, and getting the turn at the bottom was... challenging. IIRC we backed down to the most level point and unloaded rather than try to make the turn. I wouldn't be surprised if the field house has been replaced.



The actual theater in Huntington is no better - there is maybe 4' of wingspace on either side of the proscenium. You load in through a hole in the wall Upstage Left and the ramp in extends so far it's like 4' upstage of plaster. You can't set up Ampland until after every truck is dumped because of this.


BillConnerFASTC said:


> Century II Performing Arts & Convention Center - one of Izenour's. Oh my.



You don't love pushing a truck through a convention center, forking it onto the conventions presentation stage to push into the upstage hallway into another theater?! I love watching Fork Operators knock my sound towers over repeatedly!

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I'll add to this - Mother Lode Theater in Butte Montana, Grand Opera House in Macon Georgia -- both are external pneumatic elevators that hold almost nothing. A fair number of the "stagehands" tend to be junkies in both venues, they *love* to push boxes real fast, they *hate* to follow directions about where those boxes go. In both you street dump the trucks and shuttle what you can in on the elevator. The Mother Lode you're unloading onto a like 10 degree grade of a street that hasn't been paved in a decade. Every box is a murder box that wants to roll, hit a pothole, and flip over. The theater is one of the tiniest that takes in Yellow Card shows in the country, and when I was there all your "stagehands" were work release prisoners from the county jail.

The Capitol Theater in Wheeling, West Virginia, it's a street dump and a 200' push up a semi-paved alley. The loading door is only 6.5' tall so you need to flip most of the amp racks to get them in, and fully unload scenic carts on the street. It's wonderful in winter. The State Theater in New Brunswick, NJ was the same, but at least now they have a tiny baby dock after years and years of renovations. The biggest difference was that the Stagehands from Local 21 had a load-in at The State down to a science.

The Beau Rivage in Biloxi, MS - your trucks need to circle a parking garage very carefully to get to the single spot that is closest to the elevator. It's a 200' push in the parking garage from the trucks to the elevator, at least the loading elevator is pretty big and goes up 5 stories directly onto Stage Left.

Easton, PA - Used to be a hell of a street load-in on a grade. Now the trucks park on the roof and an elevator shuttles gear from stage level to the roof of the venue.

Pioneer Center, Reno, Nevada - The theater is underground, you load trucks 1 at a time from a tiny tiny tiny elevator. It's one of the most un-ideal loading situations in the country. You legitimately have to choose to either uphold artistic integrity of the show and get it all in, or cut scenery and maybe an electric or two so you have space in the venue for what would normally be back-load so you can get to your next venue on time. 

Connor Palace, Cincinnati OH - Stage door is great, but you literally build the truck dock at the top of the call. Heavy steel grated plates. Boxes don't want to roll on them correctly, people get hurt building the dock.
--------
As far as Local 1 stuff, I'm not a member of 1 but when I'm not touring I predominately work in 1's jurisdiction.

Stage 42 is kind of tricky, it's a street dump with a huge hydraulic elevator to get things up to the 4th floor. Dyer Ave has a direct line to traffic coming in the Lincoln Tunnel so it's a pain when trucks have to circle, at least it's easy enough to get trucks parked on 41st street. Better than loading into any of the venues on Theater Row or at the Signature just because of how big Stage 42's elevator is. Doesn't make it any less tricky because the scale of show at Stage 42 tends to be a lot larger than those other venues.

Most of the Broadway theaters are just insanely dumb street dumps but nothing out of the ordinary for an NYC, and better coordinated than most every corporate loading situation. A standard Broadway IN is a walk in the park compared to a corporate gig with an event space, or an old hotel (The Plaza is pretty miserable push using elevators and hallways designed for 1900's needs in 2020). The Metropolitan Museum of Art and the Museum of Natural History at least have truck docks, and insanely regulated procedures for getting in and out - the downsides are the security checks to get trucks docked, and the insane paths to get around the most valuable artwork (Very much needed, adds hours to the call).

On Broadway you're paying a person to manage sidewalk traffic all day to keep the flow of pedestrians uninterrupted. You're constantly shuffling things from the sidewalk in and out of lobbies and alleys to make sure it all fits in a secure location by the end of the day and doesn't hit cars or pedestrians during the day. Truth be told, the good venues with better Production Management tend to flow really really well. Your biggest issue is when PRG totally bungles the delivery or pickup slots and then you have 4 trucks all vying to be docked first to make their next pickup/dropoff, the Teamsters are getting testy because they see 4 trucks and know they won't be getting an easy day, and you can't split loaders so they'll be at it until the back-log of trucks is cleared. Truth be told @RonHebbard I haven't seen any drinking on a Local 1 In/Out - times have changed, and I am very used to Producers or reps from the Producing Office walking around and breathing down necks to clear up any inefficiencies they see. The house folks always talk about the "good old days" when they could have a few lunch beers or do something harder at their tech tables or in their offices, but I haven't seen it in any of my experiences.

The hardest part of a Broadway In/Out tends to be the sheer number of people, many of whom haven't worked in that particular venue before. You get a lot of folks from the hall who may be trying out the Stagehand life and don't know too much. They see boxes, they want to push them. This is no different from a majority of touring venues around America. The difference is that these new folks (and I won't say young, just new, lot's of mid-life career transition folks, or people who bounce jobs and know when Local 1 is going to be busy with Ins/Outs) is the they don't know where the Teamsters/IATSE line is on the truck and in an urge to be too helpful piss off the teamsters to the point that all work grinds to a halt.
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The "OTHER" Local 1 -- If you want a good video of a MISERABLE loading situation, check out ITEA's videos of the Stanley Theater pre-renovation where they added a truck dock. ITEA Local 1, Only One. The crew would suddenly be on an endless coffee when they heard the word "Cadac".


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## spenserh (Apr 30, 2020)

Once upon a time, we had a nice truck level dock. One day the powers that be decided to sever off part of our property, which they somehow managed to screw up and include our truck dock (as well as the star dressing room, production office and HVAC facilities). Our new neighbour was not amenable to the idea of us clogging up his parking lot with trucks, so he filled in the loading dock with cement.

I still feel a ping a rage every time we have to dump a 53 by ramp.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Apr 30, 2020)

No one has even mentioned the "historic"second floor theatres with a loading door 10 to 20' above grade.


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## themuzicman (Apr 30, 2020)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> No one has even mentioned the "historic"second floor theatres with a loading door 10 to 20' above grade.



I mentioned Macon, Georgia! Not sure if it counts but the locals consider it historic...


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## TimMc (Apr 30, 2020)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> No one has even mentioned the "historic"second floor theatres with a loading door 10 to 20' above grade.



Little Rock, Arkansas.... symphony/concert hall downtown. When I was there the load in was via parking lot to a 10x24' scissor lift on the side of the building. Stage level was 3rd floor level IIRC. To get consoles to FOH they had a chain hoist in one of the curtain warmer cans... dropped the chain, put slings under the case and a tag line to pull it downstage of the pit (2nd floor) to land it.


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## themuzicman (Apr 30, 2020)

TimMc said:


> Little Rock, Arkansas.... symphony/concert hall downtown. When I was there the load in was via parking lot to a 10x24' scissor lift on the side of the building. Stage level was 3rd floor level IIRC. To get consoles to FOH they had a chain hoist in one of the curtain warmer cans... dropped the chain, put slings under the case and a tag line to pull it downstage of the pit (2nd floor) to land it.



They renovated and have a dock now!


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## danTt (Apr 30, 2020)

How has this thread made it this far without talking about TPAC in Nashville?


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## almorton (Apr 30, 2020)

The Minack open air theatre in Cornwall, UK, is "interesting". 

Your access is from the car park, into a loading bay large enough for a single 10 ton rigid. The entrance is above all the audience seating, and the stage is, I'm not exactly sure, but probably 4 or 5 storeys below. It's built on the side of a cliff. Everything has to be carried by hand down through the seating to the stage and thence to the dressing rooms and backstage areas. You can guess how it comes back up. It's a fantastic place to put on a show, though, under the stars, surrounded by the rocks, with the sea crashing below.


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## Crisp image (May 1, 2020)

Of the 3 venues I work or have worked in, venue 1 is all at street level with maximum height of 2.9m clearance to get on stage. Anything that is taller than that is constructed on stage and then has to stay in the wings when not being used. door width is 3.5m so wide enough. It opens up to a set of basketball courts and plenty of room fro trucks but we mostly see small moving vans and pickups there because it is a school and we don't see road shows come in just local schools, dance schools and theatre groups.
Venue 2 had (recently renovated) a dock that you could back a truck into (rigid trucks worked better here. Door straight onto the stage at about 900mm (3ft) above road height. Door height was great but width was just under the width of tailgate ramps on trucks so the truck had to be in a slight angle to let the ramp sit on the lip of the dock.
Venue 3 has a small loading dock with a door 1500mm (5ft) above the road with an elecric lift . It can be a bit awkward to load and unload trucks but we manage. Door is only 2100mm (7ft) wide and maybe 2700mm (9ft) high. This is loaded straight on to the stage the biggest restriction is moving between stages ( there are 2 side by side) the door between them is only 1400mm (4ft8) wide and 2700 (9ft) high. The stage levels are the same height but the area between is lower by the thickness to the stage top (maybe 25mm or 1in) so getting trucks between one area and another is interesting. When we have a show in they usually use one stage for the show and the other for props and sets storage while not in use.
All in all not as bad as some of the venues mentioned above but they have their own quirks.

Regards
Geoff


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## macsound (May 6, 2020)

I worked for a while at the San Francisco Marriott Marquis, the largest hotel by rooms and event space on the west coast outside of vegas. 
Our main loading dock was underground and shared with 2 hotels plus a museum and you couldn't turn around inside, so a semi could technically fit but would have to get perpendicular on 4th street and then back down about 100' then turn 90degrees into the Marriott dock. Then you had a 20 minute limit. 
Once off the truck there was a big loooong hallway which could be avoided if you were going to the 3 small ballrooms. 
Back down the hallway under Mission Street to a "freight" elevator that was really a 16 person elevator that took you to to ballroom level, about a 200' push past stacked chairs and coffee carts to get to the back service corridor. If you had anything long though, like striplights, pipe or truss, that had to go down the escalator. 
If you wanted to use the dock that was at ballroom level, that entrance was shared with Moscone Center, target, and two other hotels. Because it was shared, we'd also get teamsters harassing the IATSE staff even though our dock was non-union.
Also a local theatre I worked at for years was sloped toward the back of the truck, so just opening the roll up door of a u-haul for community theatre was a 10 person job to make sure everything didn't come crashing out.


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## NJJerrySmith (May 7, 2020)

I pulled a few overhire shifts in the scene shop at The Shakespeare Theater of New Jersey. Pretty nice and spacious shop space, easy loading into the box truck. 

The theater is a lovely recently-ish renovated space that's beautiful. However, the stage is on the 3rd floor of the building. Sounds slightly trivial with all the advances in metalworking and elevators/lifts right? Wrong. The box truck backed up to a "lovely" wooden wobbly "loading dock" approx 10' x 16' (at dock height) that shifted side to side with every step. And then the loading door is about another 12 feet in the air.....


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## Van (May 14, 2020)

Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you Boise HS, Boise ID. 



Yes, that is the only loading dock. Now imagine needing to get a 45' tall lift in there so you can replace all the loft blocks.


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