# Chain Hoist Grab Bag Tips Over



## MNicolai (Mar 14, 2009)

I have no idea who was responsible for setting up the rig for this event, but when that chain fell from the chain hoist suspending the trussing today the chain fell within inches of someone sitting directly underneath it. I also don't know what caused it to fall, considering that it had been steady on the trussing for Thursday and Friday, and then dropped this morning. I'd guess that it was three days of music causing everything in the room to vibrate a little, but that trussing was just a S4 PAR rig w/o any movers on it or anything. Whichever company set that up literally came within inches of a lawsuit.


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## Footer (Mar 14, 2009)

Could possibly be more of a bag rip them a bag tip. It does not take too big of a hole to get the chain moving.


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## Clifford (Mar 14, 2009)

I thought the lack of a neutral feeding FOH at our regional wasn't good. Do you know which FIRST regional it was?


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## lieperjp (Mar 14, 2009)

Clifford said:


> I thought the lack of a neutral feeding FOH at our regional wasn't good. Do you know which FIRST regional it was?



I'm going to guess US Cellular Arena, Milwaukee, WI.


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## scotty269 (Mar 14, 2009)

Clifford said:


> I thought the lack of a neutral feeding FOH at our regional wasn't good. Do you know which FIRST regional it was?



Not the Philly FIRST. It starts this thursday. Lets go Team 321!


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## MNicolai (Mar 16, 2009)

Yes, it was the Milwaukee Regional. Our team (CooneyTech #269) was 7 points away from first place. As the joke goes, second place is for the FIRST losers.

I didn't pay too close of attention to the PD's or anything, but as usual, I heard some stories from the pits. Such as, the team that started their pit on fire without an open flame, or the kid that dug his hand into a box of scrap metal and sliced his arm open from his wrist to his elbow, then ran into a bathroom to hide from the EMT's until he could get the bleeding under control using paper towels and zip ties as to avoid a trip to the hospital. Lest we forget, there was also the moment where someone was connecting the terminals of their batteries and crossed the connections and blue sparks flew everywhere, while a judge was watching them and his safety glasses were in his hand and not on his face. Needless to say, there weren't any safety awards for that team.


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## photoatdv (Mar 16, 2009)

Is this FIRST robotics you're talking about?


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## len (Mar 16, 2009)

That happened to me in Virginia, once. Fortunately, it was during load in, and more fortunately no one was injured. To this day no one could figure out why the excess chain didn't feed into the bag correctly. It never had happened before or since. 

But that was a weird show. It was the same venue where Borat filmed the rodeo scene (where he "sang" the "national anthem" of his country). The whole local crew was up in arms about it. It didn't help that a lot of the tour crew was referencing it throughout the show. Also, I had to get one of the spot ops replaced because he was too drunk to work.


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## MNicolai (Mar 16, 2009)

photoatdv said:


> Is this FIRST robotics you're talking about?



Yes, FIRST Robotics as they compete for Lunacy this year. The Milwaukee Regional was actually just held this past weekend here. There's a bit of irony in that there were probably more engineers in the arena at the time that it happened than probably ever are otherwise.

Unfortunately just engineers, and not riggers.


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## Clifford (Mar 16, 2009)

FIRST events are ususally pretty safe and well done. Again, except that the feed for FOH in LA didn't have a neutral. And the random Source4 ERS in an all PAR rig. It wasn't focused at anything in particular. I spent three days trying to figure out why it was there.


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## mrb (Mar 20, 2009)

Clifford said:


> FIRST events are ususally pretty safe and well done. Again, except that the feed for FOH in LA didn't have a neutral. And the random Source4 ERS in an all PAR rig. It wasn't focused at anything in particular. I spent three days trying to figure out why it was there.



I was at San Diego and LA FIRST events. I remember spotting that source 4 leko too. Good thing the first groups are all good kids, in LA everything was powered from a disconnect switch on a wall right on the arena floor, not protected or roped off in any way. 

The company doing those events seems to have some questionable wiring for sure. I noticed several things I would have removed and tossed in a dumpster had I been the facilities guy and saw them.


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## cdub260 (Mar 21, 2009)

mrb said:


> The company doing those events seems to have some questionable wiring for sure. I noticed several things I would have removed and tossed in a dumpster had I been the facilities guy and saw them.



Often, when groups use our facilities I step into the roll of Facilities Manager. In that position I have the authority to refuse permission bring in or use equipment if I consider it to be unsafe, and I've used that authority on occasion. I prefer not to use that authority but sometimes I have to because when I'm act as Facilities Manager, I am responsible for the safety and well being of everyone working in, using or visiting our facilities. That said, under no circumstances do I have the authority, or the right to remove and toss any equipment in the dumpster without the consent of that equipment's owner. To do so would be theft and destruction of property, both of which are criminal offenses.

When I refuse to allow a group to use certain equipment, I will allow them to store that equipment on premises for the duration of their event, unless there is some compelling reason for me not to. So far I have never encountered a compelling reason. I imagine that other venues probably have similar policies to cover this type of situation.


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## mrb (Mar 21, 2009)

cdub260 said:


> Often, when groups use our facilities I step into the roll of Facilities Manager. In that position I have the authority to refuse permission bring in or use equipment if I consider it to be unsafe, and I've used that authority on occasion. I prefer not to use that authority but sometimes I have to because when I'm act as Facilities Manager, I am responsible for the safety and well being of everyone working in, using or visiting our facilities. That said, under no circumstances do I have the authority, or the right to remove and toss any equipment in the dumpster without the consent of that equipment's owner. To do so would be theft and destruction of property, both of which are criminal offenses.
> 
> When I refuse to allow a group to use certain equipment, I will allow them to store that equipment on premises for the duration of their event, unless there is some compelling reason for me not to. So far I have never encountered a compelling reason. I imagine that other venues probably have similar policies to cover this type of situation.



I know you cannot dispose of the property of another, I meant it as 'in no way will electricity be allowed into that thing while it is in my venue' but maybe I should not have made the comment incase others would take it seriously.


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## Clifford (Mar 21, 2009)

mrb said:


> I was at San Diego and LA FIRST events. I remember spotting that source 4 leko too. Good thing the first groups are all good kids, in LA everything was powered from a disconnect switch on a wall right on the arena floor, not protected or roped off in any way.
> 
> The company doing those events seems to have some questionable wiring for sure. I noticed several things I would have removed and tossed in a dumpster had I been the facilities guy and saw them.



I noticed the disconnect as well. I also noticed in LA they didn't close the lock on the gate to the disconnect for the arena's lighting. In San Diego you'd really have to try to do something. LA has the dimmers and hoist controls sitting right where anyone could play with them.


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## willbb123 (Mar 21, 2009)

For a community theater show a year ago we had to rent truss. The rental company told us that the chain didnt like staying in the bag while it was being flown out. So whenever we had to fly it, the house had to be silent and the area underneath it cleared. 

Whenever I use a chain lift, I always listen to the chain going into the bag. If I hear something wrong I stop it and investigate. 

One of my jobs as Lighting/Rigging Supervisor is to be there during load in/out and make sure they arent doing anything unsafe. I have never had to not allow anything in our theater, but I'm not afraid to say something if its not safe. If any group tries to fly someone with out a professional rigger, I will stop them immediately. If I get outranked then I have decided that I wont even work that show. I feel strongly enough about not allowing it that I will walk out.


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## derekleffew (Mar 22, 2009)

willbb123 said:


> ...So whenever we had to fly it, the house had to be silent and the area underneath it cleared. ...


A good practice when moving any overhead suspension.

However, there's no good reason why a properly operated and maintained hoist system should not keep its chain in its container.


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## TimMiller (Mar 26, 2009)

what happened was likely chain run, or what i call chain drool. What happens is that the chain misses the bag partway through going up. And it can stay there for days or even just minutes and all of a sudden the chain will pull itself out of the bag (yay for gravity). I have had this happen with my hoists. (I get my motors inspected and load tested at least once a year). I pay attention and if i see any chain hanging out of the bag i will bring the rig back down and resituate the bag. This happens commonly by the motor spinning around a little and the bag sits funny on the truss, and part of the chain ends up hanging out of the bag. Whenever i hear chain start to run, i yell heads, in which means get your butt away from the truss as quickly and as safely as possible. I share the safety word with everyone i work with and make sure they have a plan of action.


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## willbb123 (Mar 26, 2009)

I am really beginning to see a need for a safety talk before every big show. Whenever we we have to rig anything to our fly system. Just a reminder to make sure that everyone is on the same page.


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## porkchop (Mar 26, 2009)

Last tour we had this happen twice. Both times it was because the ground rigger put the hooks on the chain bag on backwards. Both times luckily it was during load in (so no public) and no one got hurt. Both times the chain hit the ground and made a REALLY loud noise. Just another reason that you should remember if you have to force it, it's wrong.

(FYI for CM Loadstar motors like ours the proper way to put on the bag is hooks facing EDIT: OUT).


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## soundman (Mar 26, 2009)

porkchop said:


> (FYI for CM Loadstar motors like ours the proper way to put on the bag is hooks facing in).



Do you have documentation for that? Everyone I have talked to or worked with has instructed me hooks out. That way if the chain brush against the hook it will not snag.


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## porkchop (Mar 26, 2009)

soundman said:


> Do you have documentation for that? Everyone I have talked to or worked with has instructed me hooks out. That way if the chain brush against the hook it will not snag.



That's what I get for cruising cb in the wee hours of the morning, and also why I'm not a rigger. I remembered there's a uniform way that has the most clearance from hook to chain, but my lack of a photographic memory failed me. It is hooks out sorry.


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