# Side debate about low budget consoles



## Goatman (Jan 8, 2016)

AsherSB said:


> Also a good low budget console, like a mini element, but that's for another thread..



A good low-budget console by ETC already exists.

https://www.etcconnect.com/Products/Consoles/Cobalt-Family/Nomad/Features.aspx


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## techieman33 (Jan 8, 2016)

Goatman said:


> A good low-budget console by ETC already exists.
> 
> https://www.etcconnect.com/Products/Consoles/Cobalt-Family/Nomad/Features.aspx



Low budget? Your going to end up spending $1200 just to get one universe and the "gadget." I think HOG is the only other major manufacturer that charges those kinds of prices. You can run a single universe of AVO, Grand MA, Chamsys, or Martin for less than the cost of just ETC's "gadget." Then your need a computer and a touch screen, so add another $1000 to that total and your at $2200. Then add another $4000 for a programming wing and you might as well buy an Ion and get at least two universe from it for the same price or probably less. 
The nomad setup works for some instances, like you already have a console in the EOS or Cobalt family and want something to act as a backup console, or network with that console. You have to already be fully entrenched into EOS or Cobalt ecosystem for this to make any kind of financial sense in my mind. There is nothing they offer that I could justify to my boss that makes it worth spending $1200 on it when spending $200 would get me similar results from one of the other large console manufacturers.


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## Goatman (Jan 8, 2016)

Personally, I had an old laptop laying around that I can use for my Nomad rig. I have never found touchscreens to be useful when programming or running, you just get fingerprints on a screen when it would be faster to just type the commands in. The keyboard works perfectly well for all things I have used it for—and I can switch to any Eos console and not be slowed by searching for where the buttons are. Even if I needed a full universe, that would only be $1200. But it isn't even really that that you pay for, it's the unparalleled technical support that will walk you through fixing it instead of passing your call around the office until the product is out of warranty.

I use Nomad primarily in venues that either have no other console or still operate off of a 24-channel, 2-scene preset that can only record 50 cues (I'm looking at you, Leprecon 624—which, by the way, costs $1700 for less than a tenth of the functionality and seriously lacking tech support).

It really depends on the places you work, what you're comfortable with, and how you work that determine the console. Nomad makes sense for someone in my position—constantly shifting between small venues in an area where the larger venues all have Eos. It doesn't make sense as a venue-owned main board.


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## Goatman (Jan 10, 2016)

AsherSB said:


> Smartfade



You said it, not me. ETC's even cheaper and worse solution. 


AsherSB said:


> and the near astronomic cost makes the Nomad an incredibly inconvenient solution for the small venue market



But the point is that Nomad lets you buy what you need. A small venue doesn't need 17 universes. They tend to need less than half of one and run off of donations, as possible. $700 is a darn good price for a console for a small theater, especially one with all those features. Even with the SmartFade, you're spending $2500 for a VERY limited glorified DJ board.

You'd spend way more than $700 on any other controller (unless you went ADJ, Chauvet, or the like).

That being said, I always recommend non-Nomad for venues themselves but recommend Nomad for theater companies and individuals.


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## techieman33 (Jan 10, 2016)

Goatman said:


> You said it, not me. ETC's even cheaper and worse solution.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Your not getting a physical controller though. And if your fine with a universe or less then a universe of Grand MA 2, AVO Titian, or Martin MPC can be had for under $200. You could spend $700 and get martins touch wing thing to have a physical control surface. Or just buy a used express for pennies, it's not like your going to need a lot of fancy moving light controls with only half or a single universe.


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## Goatman (Jan 11, 2016)

Grand MA 2: $57,000-$80,000
AVO Titan: $4,000 EDIT: I see now a $250 for a Nomad-similar product.
Martin M-PC: $600+$60 shipping.

Used Expresses run $1500 at the cheapest—and those are for the heavily used, rarely cleaned ones.

I guess I just don't understand the boards you listed or where you can buy an $80,000 board for $200. I'll give you Martin M-PC because it is $40 cheaper. But if you think that $1500-$2500 is pennies, what's an extra $40?

As for the Titan, yeah, it's cheaper. I never liked AVO's approach to the UI or the commands. For me, that extra bit of money was worth it to get something I like.


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## techieman33 (Jan 11, 2016)

Goatman said:


> Grand MA 2: $57,000-$80,000
> AVO Titan: $4,000 EDIT: I see now a $250 for a Nomad-similar product.
> Martin M-PC: $600+$60 shipping.
> 
> ...




Lets compare apples to apples here, not hardware solutions to software solutions.


Chamsys Magic Q you can run a universe for $15 if you can work with their 5 hours at a time limit. Or you can spend $100 and get it without the time limit. And if you want more you can get up to 64 universes for free over artnet, sACN, etc. Granted your going to spend a ton of money on hardware to get all those universe out to copper. 

Avolites Titan One, you can get a full universe for $250, and probably a whole lot less.

Martin M-PC, you can get a free universe, but will have to spend somewhere around $60 for a third party USB to DMX adapter, and can buy hardware to give you additional universes for not much money.

ETC nomad is going to cost ~$900 for a universe, and another $200 for the usb to dmx adapter. 

And you can buy a used express for a lot less than $1500. Remember just because you see someone asking so much for something doesn't mean it's worth that much, or that someone will pay that much for it.


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## billshut (Jan 11, 2016)

Goatman said:


> You said it, not me. ETC's even cheaper and worse solution.


Another one of those yuppies that doesn't understand a certain market (small theatre and church), so thinks it is terrible...


Goatman said:


> a VERY limited glorified DJ board.


...and has never seen or used one.


Goatman said:


> Even with the SmartFade, you're spending $2500


The SmartFade ML can be purchased for closer to $2000 than $2500. The SmartFade 2496 is less than $1500. The SmartFade 1296 is around $1400. The SmartFade 1248 is less than $1200.

Maybe next time do a little research so you actually know something about what you are talking about!


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## TJCornish (Jan 11, 2016)

Goatman said:


> You said it, not me. ETC's even cheaper and worse solution.


The SmartFade ML is a well-designed, well-executed desk for what it is. If you're running movers and have any need to busk, it's way, WAY better than the Element. Does it have limitations and specific use cases it's designed for? Yes. Does it suck? Not in the least.


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## AsherSB (Jan 11, 2016)

billshut said:


> Another one of those yuppies that doesn't understand a certain market (small theatre and church), so thinks it is terrible...
> 
> 
> ...and has never seen or used one.
> ...



I've used a smart fade in a small theater, and I've used DJ boards plenty of times. I don't hate the smart fade, but I would never, I repeat NEVER, recommend it. It's last generation technology at a current generation price, and I find it limiting to use. A scaled down element that worked with existing expansions and had a way to add a few universes over time would be a game changer. Say a base unit with 256 channels of output, 1 bank of faders, a monitor out (with support for Windows touchscreens), and the standard etc keypad layout that could add up to 2 universes, another screen, and ML control via a second wing for about $2,500 a wing. Nothing like that exists, and it would dominate the market easily.


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## techieman33 (Jan 11, 2016)

AsherSB said:


> I've used a smart fade in a small theater, and I've used DJ boards plenty of times. I don't hate the smart fade, but I would never, I repeat NEVER, recommend it. It's last generation technology at a current generation price, and I find it limiting to use. A scaled down element that worked with existing expansions and had a way to add a few universes over time would be a game changer. Say a base unit with 256 channels of output, 1 bank of faders, a monitor out (with support for Windows touchscreens), and the standard etc keypad layout that could add up to 2 universes, another screen, and ML control via a second wing for about $2,500 a wing. Nothing like that exists, and it would dominate the market easily.



If you do all the expansion at that price range then your risk undercutting the full size elements and Ions.


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## AsherSB (Jan 11, 2016)

techieman33 said:


> If you do all the expansion at that price range then your risk undercutting the full size elements and Ions.


I know, that's why I doubt etc will ever build an expandable, affordable, and robust console for small theaters, no matter how easy it would be to make.


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## Pie4Weebl (Jan 11, 2016)

I feel like if you need more than a universe and don't want to use a PC you should be prepared to buy a "real" console.


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## gafftaper (Jan 11, 2016)

I got really annoyed with this side debate taking over the ETC 4WRD thread so I removed it. 

People buy ETC products because of their proven reliable performance and long term commitment to service. To get that you have to pay for it. That means Smartfade and Nomad cost more than the competitors. ETC also designs, develops, and builds their own products as much as possible in Middleton Wisconsin. You pay a premium for the fact that they do their own science and create their own products. Want a cheaper product, there are plenty of knock offs out there on Ebay straight from China. They may even perform almost as well, but you have to live with the Karma/Guilt of knowing that you purchased the knock off instead of rewarding @STEVETERRY 's team for all their hard work creating it originally. 

Finally. There is a perfect product for every budget and every need. It drives me CRAZY when people trash talk a product like the SmartFade without understanding that it's not designed for you. It's designed for another person, on another budget. That doesn't make it bad, just not right for you. I personally don't like using Smartfade. But I've advised multiple people to buy them, because it's reliable, well supported, and the right product for their budget and needs. In fact I'm about to design a small lighting system for my kids' school and I'm probably going to put a Smartfade in it. Because whether I personally like it to use one or not, it's the right tool for the job and the budget.


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## robartsd (Jan 11, 2016)

gafftaper said:


> There is a perfect product for every budget and every need.


I have to disagree; however, just about every product is perfect for a particular need and budget.


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## soundlight (Jan 11, 2016)

I'm going to jump in here just because I really like the ETC Smartfade boards - both the ML and the non-ML. For the price, they are fantastic. They do things other boards in their featureset don't. The non-ML Smartfades are great for the rental market, where I can tell someone to set their look with their mix of conventionals and LED cans, press the record button, and press the button of the handle they want to store it to. Very useful with how prevalent LEDs are becoming today, we have two flavors of LED pars in addition to some other LED products, and being able to send out a Smartfade with a dozen LED fixtures and some conventionals is the easiest way to teach Joe Schmoe at the church two towns over how to run the scenes for his Christmas show. Any of the other products in this category have too few features or too many. And unlike with a Leprecon I don't have to jump through hoops to get to the scenes - I just press the "MEMS" button and I'm there. Nothing extra.

As far as the ML goes, I know how to use it, really well. If you don't, it's going to frustrate you to no end. If you do, it's going to serve you well. I will say that training someone on that thing can be a real pain. It's either someone who knows nothing about movers and doesn't understand half the words that come out of my mouth, or someone who's accustomed to MA/Hog/Martin and doesn't understand the operating philosophy. So I'm screwed both ways.

All in all, don't knock it till you've tried it. Really tried it. It's not replacing an Express. It's not asking to be a real desk. It's filling a need, filling a market that is real, and providing a very, very good solution for that market.

Will I take them over all else? No. My day-to-day weapon of choice is still MA1. MA2 is about equal as far as me liking it but costs more to rent so I generally take the series 1 desk. Martin M-series after that, and then I still find myself on HOG1000s from time to time. I'm a jack of all trades in a company that's a jack of all trades though, so I gotta be hella flexible.


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## Thetechmanmac (Jan 11, 2016)

Although I have never used a smartfade before, I feel it would be a PERFECT small console for churches, small schools, etc... I think that (especially in churches) when there isn't the same person running lighting for every show, it would be extremely difficult for someone that does not have extensive lighting knowledge to jump into nomad and do a show. That person would have a much easier time running a show on a smartfade. If a usual church lighting person gets sick the day of service, and can't do the show, someone else would be able to take his place and run the show on a smartfade.

I also feel that nomad is called nomad for a reason. It is meant for on-the-go type situations. Although I LOVE to have an actual console in front of me, I like software solutions for being able to throw my interface, some ethernet cables, and my laptop in my bag and being able to go do a last-minute show.

Just my 2 cents


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## gafftaper (Jan 11, 2016)

Thetechmanmac said:


> Although I have never used a smartfade before, I feel it would be a PERFECT small console for churches, small schools, etc... I think that (especially in churches) when there isn't the same person running lighting for every show, it would be extremely difficult for someone that does not have extensive lighting knowledge to jump into nomad and do a show. That person would have a much easier time running a show on a smartfade. If a usual church lighting person gets sick the day of service, and can't do the show, someone else would be able to take his place and run the show on a smartfade.



That's exactly right. I don't personally like to use smartfade because I am used to a different type of console interface. But churches, schools, small clubs who have lots of volunteers and people who need a lot of power without a lot of training are perfect for smartfade. Thus, it's a right tool for the right job device.

It drives me crazy when people start talking about any product being junk. Because it just shows your own bias and snobbery. There are theaters out there still running 40 year old Colortran two scene presets who would love a budget big enough to buy a used Smartfade. The only thing I will call junk is a product that is blatantly copied from another brand's product.


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## Noah Kimmel (Jan 11, 2016)

Take a look at Jands Vista consoles. Very nice console, extremely user friendly, and scalable to whatever size you need.


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## BrianEvans (Jan 12, 2016)

It is hard to discuss Smart Fade without talking about Cognito.
Cognito was purpose built for schools and churches as a small, yet powerful, control solution.
http://www.pathwayconnect.com/content/view/214/29/


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## BillConnerFASTC (Jan 12, 2016)

While some folks are quite adept at solving their problems, I still limit my specs to those manufacturers and vendors who I'm pretty sure offer great support. That leaves ETC almost alone at top of the manufacturers list but Pathway has shown they have good tech support as well. Others may, but I just am not convinced yet.

Smartfade M with a laptop is pretty interesting - just not the body of user and vendor support as there is for eos line.


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## TJCornish (Jan 12, 2016)

I own and have a lot of time on a SmartFade ML. It's great within its limitations. I've rented the Cognito and have used an Element. I prefer the SmartFade ML to both of these for my busking purposes, though I can see that in a mostly conventional show, the Element might be preferable.

Over on the audio side of things, it used to be that the mixer you wanted cost between $15,000 - $20,000. In the last 2-3 years, that price has now dropped to between $2500-$5000 with the Allen&Heath QU series, Behringer X32 series, and on the higher end, the A&H GLD series. For some reason, this price drop has yet to hit on the lighting side of things - the next step up from the above mentioned lighting consoles quickly goes to about $7000, and from there even more quickly to $15,000, then $50,000.

I'm all for companies staying profitable and I understand that there are development and support costs that need to be amortized, but I'm not convinced that a Cobalt or a MA really needs to be the price they currently go for.

While at the local shop yesterday I bent the ear of their console expert whining about this exact issue, and he told me to check into the Martin M-Touch/M-PC. The wing is ~$500 and doesn't use physical faders. Instead, it uses touch surfaces with LED ladders. This has the significant advantage that the parameters can follow page changes without the fader being disconnected. I'm very excited to try this, as it seems like a good solution for me - much more capability than the lower-end hardware consoles, but a price that reflects the actual cost of development, rather than the inflated prices of the mid-tier consoles and wings.


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## Calc (Jan 12, 2016)

I have two Smartfades here, a 1248 and a 2496. 

The 1248 was originally to go with the Congo Jr. in the theatre. It has a mode to pass DMX through, or playback recorded presets, so they installed it in-line with the DMX out with the idea that it could be used as either a backup, or a quick solution to bring up lights without starting up the Jr. It worked great in that purpose, but those pushing the "Now I can put less people with less training in the booth!" lead to it being removed when they realized how well that worked.  Now it floats around, and I use it for our arena (~15 channels of LED house lights and a SmartBar). I've re-patched the channels to fit the non-sequential way they retrofitted the LEDs, and it works well.

The 2496 runs in our recital hall. The room only has 48 dimmers (including house lights) so it's technically overkill. But it's easy enough that I can let the music department turn on lights themselves without worrying that they're going to break or erase anything.


SmartFade has a target market. That market *doesn't want* the standard ETC key layout. They *don't need* multiple universes. The problem comes up when all people see is the price tag and brand, and decide that this is ETC's budget console. It's not. 
I've seen the same thing with the Cognito in person. One of the local dealers got a demo unit in when they first came out, and was trying to convince me that it would go well in our theatre (replacing our Congo Jr.). I knew enough to tell him that it wouldn't. But there's a small concert venue across town that has one and *loves* it. Again, you need to pay attention to the target market for a console when shopping around.

@BillConnerASTC: You can hook it to a laptop to get a little fancier for programming, but I've always seen that more as a tool for install/programming rather than during a show. It still seems to me that if you need/want a screen, you're probably better off looking at another board. I've never seen it with the ML though, so I could be way off base there.


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## TJCornish (Jan 12, 2016)

Calc said:


> @BillConnerASTC: You can hook it to a laptop to get a little fancier for programming, but I've always seen that more as a tool for install/programming rather than during a show. It still seems to me that if you need/want a screen, you're probably better off looking at another board. I've never seen it with the ML though, so I could be way off base there.


The laptop screen on the SmartFade is pretty essential for memory editing and managing. If you only have a few memories stored, you don't need it. If you have multiple pages in use or if you need to edit a memory, you quickly find the limitations of trying to do that only on the surface.


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## theatricalmatt (Jan 12, 2016)

@TJCornish -- The price of lighting consoles might remain pretty high; the real cost chases these days are with LEDs and moving lights.


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## SteveB (Jan 12, 2016)

And I don't think the actual question was if the Smartfade is a value based and/or effective console. It is what is is, it's not exactly a recent design after all.

The question seemed to be is Nomad and the attending accessories, too expensive as compared to others. I feel that it pricey for what it seems to offer at the basic level - 256 addresses on a dongle, plus the price of a Gadget. That IS more then other manufacturers options for PC based control, but a question - how well do the AVO, Grand MA, Chamsys, or Martin options interface as a backup, supplemental surface, etc... as does Nomad ?, which does a good job at taking the entire OS of an Eos Ti down to a basic hardware level. That's the advantage I see and why it costs more.


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## TJCornish (Jan 12, 2016)

theatricalmatt said:


> @TJCornish -- The price of lighting consoles might remain pretty high; the real cost chases these days are with LEDs and moving lights.


They will until they don't. With all the cheaper movers, there exists a real need to drive them - this is exactly my issue right now, and eventually vendors will rise to meet the demand; either by second-tier folks coming up market, or first-tier folks moving downmarket. 

It seems that Martin is addressing this with the M-Touch wing - the fact that it is $500 and not $5000 like the rest while still being fully functional is a step in the right direction.

Other players like Strand with the Neo are making an attempt (at least getting the $15,000 level console down to the $8000 level), however support and organizational concerns make gambling on something like that harder to swallow.


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## zwolf59661 (Jan 12, 2016)

I've done work in a community theatre space that uses a SmartFade 2496. For what they use it for, it's a nice little board. Their rig is a mix of conventional and LED, so the individual channel faders are nice. It's relatively easy to program. They have an older desktop PC next to it that I like to run SmartSoft (the companion PC app) on, which I also use for offline programming as needed. And because it's community theatre, the tech crew is all volunteer, with varying levels of experience. 
As it's been mentioned before, the SmartFade line is perfect for certain situations. It's the right tool for the right job.


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## gafftaper (Jan 12, 2016)

BrianEvans said:


> It is hard to discuss Smart Fade without talking about Cognito.
> Cognito was purpose built for schools and churches as a small, yet powerful, control solution.
> http://www.pathwayconnect.com/content/view/214/29/


True Cognito is a fantastic choice for schools and churches. If I was buying a low budget console for a facility I work in, Cognito would immediately be on the short list and likely end up first choice. Heck, there are some situations where I would choose a Cognito over a Element or Ion, it's a great board! But for a low budget, high volunteer situation, Cognito requires more knowledge and more training, to operate than a Smartfade. Cognito also costs around $1k-$2k more than a Smartfade (depending on which versions you are comparing). The right tool for the job.


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## RickR (Jan 12, 2016)

Martin has hit a key price point that I think ETC hasn't kept up with. Lots of places choke at $1000 for a board. My local dealer sold Lep 612/624s almost daily for years to little churches and clubs. SmartFade hit that hard, but purely conventional rigs are disappearing. A SFML is $3000. If you're spending $Ks on fixtures it makes sense but not for a hybrid rig with a few china LEDs. Nomad/Gadget at $1500 is better but not low enough.

Nobody can beat the ChamSys, one universe and dongle for $100. And an Enttec Pro dongle is only $170. But wings get expensive fast!


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## soundlight (Jan 12, 2016)

I will add that if PC options are in consideration, Martin's got everyone else wiped clean with the M-Touch which is a genuine, physical user interface with playbacks and encoders and a few touch-keys for under 500 bucks. And it's got a universe of DMX out. I've been recommending that thing left and right recently to people who want a full featured mover-focused control system but don't have the budget for a real desk, or even a real wing.


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## AsherSB (Jan 13, 2016)

My original post back in the 4WRD thread addressed the absence of a traditional ETC board at a low price, and even though I personally have my reservations about the smartfade, I see how it can be useful in certain limited applications. The smartfade, however, breaks completely from traditional ETC design and is far from competitive in terms of price point when you look at its feature set. On top of that the smartfade continues to age, and though it has done so well, it still feels distinctly last generation. Something like the M2GO or Cognito2 would meet every requirement I could possibly have, but I want the ETC layout and UI because almost every high school and collage in town uses an ion, element, or express, and I want everyone who is trained at our theater to have skills that can transfer. More then anything I want to be able to meet the industry standard that ETC sets, I just can't afford to. With the next generation of ETC small venue consoles that are likely coming in the next few years I would love to see them match the design of higher end ETC consoles and have the ability to grow with the theater and budget.

Essentially ENTTEC's PC wings with built in computing and from ETC.


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## gafftaper (Jan 13, 2016)

AsherSB said:


> My original post back in the 4WRD thread addressed the absence of a traditional ETC board at a low price



I believe if you adjust for inflation, the ETC Element costs about the same as a similarly equipped Express cost back in the day when they were king of the market. I think I paid a little over $4,000 for my Express nearly 20 years ago. Element may cost a little more, but not much and it's definitely a better value when you consider how much more horsepower is onboard. I believe Strand's Basic Palette II and Pathway Cognito are both around $3000-$4,000 depending on the options you select... which is definitely cheaper than an Express was back in the day. 

I'm afraid this is really a matter of "you have to pay to play". There is an entry level price that you just have to pay in order to buy a proper light console.


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## AsherSB (Jan 13, 2016)

gafftaper said:


> I believe if you adjust for inflation, the ETC Element costs about the same as a similarly equipped Express cost back in the day when they were king of the market. I think I paid a little over $4,000 for my Express nearly 20 years ago. Element may cost a little more, but not much and it's definitely a better value when you consider how much more horsepower is onboard. I believe Strand's Basic Palette II and Pathway Cognito are both around $3000-$4,000 depending on the options you select... which is definitely cheaper than an Express was back in the day.
> 
> I'm afraid this is really a matter of "you have to pay to play". There is an entry level price that you just have to pay in order to buy a proper light console.


 
I know, but as @TJCornish said, eventually the cost will drop in the same way we saw with sound. I can dream, right?


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## TJCornish (Jan 13, 2016)

AsherSB said:


> I know, but as @TJCornish said, eventually the cost will drop in the same way we saw with sound. I can dream, right?


It's going to happen. Strand came out with the ML250 which is ~$2000, but seems to be suffering from the catch-22 of folks not adopting it due to software issues, and Strand losing interest due to customers not adopting the product.

The PC folks are getting it right - again mentioning Martin M-PC and M-Touch. My rig is moving increasingly towards movers, and in the mid-tier land, software control is arguably better and certainly cheaper than mid-priced consoles.

Niches in the industry tend to have a lot of inertia, and I expect the desire for the ETC way of working to continue for a long time where it is currently king. More flexible niches can take advantage of new ways of working more quickly, and it is here that price competition will first make inroads.


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## AsherSB (Jan 13, 2016)

TJCornish said:


> The PC folks are getting it right - again mentioning Martin M-PC and M-Touch. My rig is moving increasingly towards movers, and in the mid-tier land, software control is arguably better and certainly cheaper than mid-priced consoles.



I've looked at the M-Touch, but having never used a Martin controller before, I worry about using it in a strictly theatrical setting. Is it a weapon of choice for a theatrical venue, or do you think it's better aimed at those looking to run concerts and corporate stuff?


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## JimOC_1 (Jan 16, 2016)

Over last two months there seems to be a dramatic increase in big name boards showing up on ebay. Are people going with computers, or are rental houses clearing out old closets before the next generation of $1K - $3K boards are released?


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## MikeJ (Jan 17, 2016)

I'm skeptical that we will see the same drop in price as we did with audio consoles. The market for audio consoles, is much, much larger. Bar bands and van and trailer tours will snatch up and M32, because having a monitor desk, makes their show immeasurably easier and more consistent, day to day, but that same band will probably never be in the market for a lighting controller, unless they really hit it big, and in that case they be able to afford a real LD and high end equipment. That M32 will also be replaced with something much better.

The other thing is, some companies HAVE introduced "low cost" alternatives for users who don't need all the features. MA introduced the Dot2 a year ago, and at $12k ish, its less than half the price of a light. The price of a onPC Command wing has also dropped just this month by $1000. For MA, those prices are cheap.
Hog has teamed up with Elation, and offers several small formate consoles/wings, but still in the $5-8k Range

While these prices seem high, in general, selling fewer high-end products, yields more profit and better customer service, then selling 100 times the units at a fraction of the price. When you have thousands of inexperienced users calling support because they don't know where to plug in the DMX cables, profit goes down fast. 

Just like in production, I would rather do 10 big cooperate events or arena shows, than do 100 bar bands. The bigger shows will be easier, the clients more professional, and the price tag higher. 

It looks like MA dropped the price of the entire line by a little bit, is it a trend? I don't know.


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## TJCornish (Jan 19, 2016)

MikeJ said:


> I'm skeptical that we will see the same drop in price as we did with audio consoles. The market for audio consoles, is much, much larger. Bar bands and van and trailer tours will snatch up and M32, because having a monitor desk, makes their show immeasurably easier and more consistent, day to day, but that same band will probably never be in the market for a lighting controller, unless they really hit it big, and in that case they be able to afford a real LD and high end equipment. That M32 will also be replaced with something much better.


There are lots of bands that tour with lighting rigs. Some are DJ-level, and the Elation ShowDesigner series has a following in those circles. I would argue that having a lighting controller programmed for your show can be even more critical than an audio console with your settings - it's a lot faster to set some levels on a mixer than recreate all of your lighting looks assuming you're trying to do something more specific than generic blinking of stuff.


MikeJ said:


> The other thing is, some companies HAVE introduced "low cost" alternatives for users who don't need all the features. MA introduced the Dot2 a year ago, and at $12k ish, its less than half the price of a light. The price of a onPC Command wing has also dropped just this month by $1000. For MA, those prices are cheap.
> Hog has teamed up with Elation, and offers several small formate consoles/wings, but still in the $5-8k Range


There are still audio consoles that are in the high 5-figure range; what has changed is that a "low-end" console like the A&H GLD series can do a 48x24 show for $5K with pretty much any bell or whistle you want. The big-boy desks are still there for those that want/need them, but the lower-end desks are absolutely functional, and a joy to use.

I haven't found a comparable <$5K lighting desk that doesn't require a PC and doesn't have UI limitations - small screen, too few faders, etc. This is what I'm expecting to change.


MikeJ said:


> While these prices seem high, in general, selling fewer high-end products, yields more profit and better customer service, then selling 100 times the units at a fraction of the price. When you have thousands of inexperienced users calling support because they don't know where to plug in the DMX cables, profit goes down fast.
> 
> Just like in production, I would rather do 10 big cooperate events or arena shows, than do 100 bar bands. The bigger shows will be easier, the clients more professional, and the price tag higher.
> 
> It looks like MA dropped the price of the entire line by a little bit, is it a trend? I don't know.


You have a point about the greater tech support demands of products that are targeted for a larger pool of users, however much of the rest of what you state isn't generally true. Music Group - AKA Behringer - bought Midas and Turbosound, not the other way around. Harman Group (JBL, Harmon Kardon, lots of consumer brands) bought Martin. JBL's JRX, Eon, PRX, and SRX series products float the company so they can make Vertec and VTX. Volkswagen owns Porshce, not the other way around, etc. As you mentioned, High End is now selling some products through Elation.

When you consider the cost of R&D, small client bases are a real problem, and lots of boutique companies struggle to get by and end up being gobbled up by the mass market players.


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## robartsd (Jan 19, 2016)

I think that @MikeJ is right, ETC can't afford to compete in the low end market and keep their great customer service reputation. If they wanted to design for the market where a SmartFade is too pricey, they'd likely have to have the board not be branded ETC and not come with the free tech support that ETC products enjoy.


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## TJCornish (Jan 19, 2016)

robartsd said:


> I think that @MikeJ is right, ETC can't afford to compete in the low end market and keep their great customer service reputation. If they wanted to design for the market where a SmartFade is too pricey, they'd likely have to have the board not be branded ETC and not come with the free tech support that ETC products enjoy.


We will see. ETC is moving down-market with the Colorsource fixtures. Will they do an updated console to drive them?

BTW, I have a bone to pick with ETC's support of the SmartFade. I realize it's an older console, but it is still a current product with new sales. They haven't released a fixture library update in a long time, and SmartSoft doesn't work on Apple El Capitan. It was nice of the easy to access free tech support person to give me that answer so quickly, but in this particular case, I would have preferred a software update to the easy to get "no" answer. ETC needs to either support the product or discontinue it. Console purgatory doesn't become them.


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## RickR (Jan 19, 2016)

Here is a magazine review of small consoles. No DJ stuff, several we have discussed and several not.
http://www.churchproduction.com/story/main/lighting-consoles-new-options-for-2016


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## AsherSB (Jan 19, 2016)

RickR said:


> Here is a magazine review of small consoles. No DJ stuff, several we have discussed and several not.
> http://www.churchproduction.com/story/main/lighting-consoles-new-options-for-2016


These are all interesting, but a $30,000 Vista or a $50,000+ MA aren't even on the radar for those looking at small consoles.


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## MikeJ (Jan 19, 2016)

TJCornish said:


> There are lots of bands that tour with lighting rigs. Some are DJ-level, and the Elation ShowDesigner series has a following in those circles. I would argue that having a lighting controller programmed for your show can be even more critical than an audio console with your settings - it's a lot faster to set some levels on a mixer than recreate all of your lighting looks assuming you're trying to do something more specific than generic blinking of stuff.
> 
> 
> There are still audio consoles that are in the high 5-figure range; what has changed is that a "low-end" console like the A&H GLD series can do a 48x24 show for $5K with pretty much any bell or whistle you want. The big-boy desks are still there for those that want/need them, but the lower-end desks are absolutely functional, and a joy to use.
> ...



I think your experience and perception of the market must be different than mine.

Think of it this way, 20% of the lighting market has 80% of the money to spend, this this is why MA is the most expensive and most dominant console in the industry, outside of theater. Professionals are willing to pay a premium for the product they want/need, so although its a "small client base" it a base of real clients, not a bunch of community theaters, bar bands and weekend warriors, who don't have any money or influence on other customers in the market. The latter may be 80% of the people but there is no money to be made there.

Many lighting companies ARE getting into lower end products and appealing to a larger market; take the Martin Rush line for example.
On the other hand Chauvet is trying to grow in the PROFESSIONAL market, they have completely separated their DJ line from the Pro line. Different websites, different people, different market.

Will be see better Lighting control for less? Probably, but the market is much smaller than audio.

What giant umbrella company owns another does not change the market or profit margins of a product line. If you think that all highend pro audio companies survive because the parent corporation pedals tons of garbage at guitar center, than please find me anything by L'Acoustics, Meyer, D&B, or NEXO at your local store. 

Just because you and most others cannot afford a product does not make it "boutique," In fact it may be the industry standard.

What do you thing General Electrics main source of income is? Toasters? Coffee makers? Dishwashers? NO...its Aviation. "Boutique" fighter jet engines and such, with a tiny, limited market of customers. How many dryers do you think they need to sell to equal the profit of one jet engine? 


Oh, and the idea that a lighting console and LD would be more important to a band than a monitor desk and IEMs is absurd. Out of all of the bands you have ever heard of I can think of this happening about one time, and in that case no console, just an LD.


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## derekleffew (Jan 19, 2016)

MikeJ said:


> What do you think General Electrics main source of income is? Toasters? Coffee makers? Dishwashers? NO...its Aviation. "Boutique" fighter jet engines and such, with a tiny, limited market of customers. How many dryers do you think they need to sell to equal the profit of one jet engine?


 Perhaps not the best example...
GE To Sell Appliances Division To Chinese Company


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## MikeJ (Jan 19, 2016)

derekleffew said:


> Perhaps not the best example...
> GE To Sell Appliances Division To Chinese Company



Thats exactly my point, they want to get rid of the high volume/low profit divisions.


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## TJCornish (Jan 19, 2016)

MikeJ said:


> I think your experience and perception of the market must be different than mine.
> 
> ...
> 
> ...


We will have to agree to disagree. Mackie bought EAW, and that didn't happen because EAW made more money than Mackie did.

Anyway, I appreciate your thoughts. Here's to hoping that both of us get the console we want for the price we want to pay.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Jan 20, 2016)

Consider a Q-file in 1970s was in the $50,000 range as I recall - $150,000 today - and I'd say they had come down.


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## JChenault (Jan 20, 2016)

BillConnerASTC said:


> Consider a Q-file in 1970s was in the $50,000 range as I recall - $150,000 today - and I'd say they had come down.



My memory (for the first ones in the US) was more like 100,000.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Jan 20, 2016)

Could be - which with inflation would be $300,000. Could be the list versus net values as well.


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## AsherSB (Jan 20, 2016)

MikeJ said:


> I think your experience and perception of the market must be different than mine.
> 
> Think of it this way, 20% of the lighting market has 80% of the money to spend, this this is why MA is the most expensive and most dominant console in the industry, outside of theater. Professionals are willing to pay a premium for the product they want/need, so although its a "small client base" it a base of real clients, not a bunch of community theaters, bar bands and weekend warriors, who don't have any money or influence on other customers in the market. The latter may be 80% of the people but there is no money to be made



With this logic why would Apple produce any products other then the Mac Pro and MacBook Pro? There is without doubt a large and profitable market for a small and cheap consoles, but only if a large lighting company can learn to work in a consumer market. As was mentioned before, companies like soundcraft and Allen and Heath have been able to do very well in the consumer market and maintained their positions in the professional market. The same is quite possible in the lighting industry, we just need someone brave enough to do it.

On another note I still see way more Hogs then MAs in corporate work.


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## MikeJ (Jan 20, 2016)

I get it, apple makes the macbook AIR, and the Mac Mini, and a bunch of phones. But the pricing on those products is still a premium compared to other competitors. Apple still only targets a small market with computers; people who are happy to spend extra money on a more closed system that "just works." Its a smaller, but captive market. Apple has enough LIQUID capital to buy its top PC competitor DELL,(maybe a few times over) but does not seem to be worried about Dell selling WAY more low end PCs to the low end of the market.

The other point of companies Like Soundcraft and Allan and Heath doing well in the consumer market is fine, but the reality is that they are not considered at all in the high end pro market. When you get above the mid-level church market, they drop off the radar. Anywhere Riders are considered, those companies are low on the list.

Anyway, probably not worth arguing anymore. I would love to see some full features/low cost lighting solutions, and they are out there, but probably not at the cost to feature ratio people want. Martin M-PC line is probably the best bang for the buck right now.


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## RickR (Jan 20, 2016)

AsherSB said:


> These are all interesting, but a $30,000 Vista or a $50,000+ MA aren't even on the radar for those looking at small consoles.


Highest starting price is $7294 for a Leprecon, for MA it's $3125, for Vista $1395.


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## JChenault (Jan 21, 2016)

JChenault said:


> My memory (for the first ones in the US) was more like 100,000.



So after some more research. ( IE I contacted Joel Rubin) I have some better prices for Kliegl products in the early days.

A 'Large' 5 scene preset would be somewhere around 50-60K ( Thiis would be in the 60's to early 70's)
The first Q-Files imported were 80 - 100K ( late 60's to mid 70's) NOTE that the Q-File was not a computer console. It was a memory console. It used lots of logic boards, but there was no central processing unit.
The Performance (Kliegl's first computer console ) around 25K ( Mid 70's to late 70's - early 80's)
The Performer ( Kliegl's second computer console ) 15K ( Early 80's )


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## AsherSB (Jan 21, 2016)

RickR said:


> Highest starting price is $7294 for a Leprecon, for MA it's $3125, for Vista $1395.



I know that they are cheaper as pc versions, but I was referring to the price of a full console. My point was that these aren't options for small venues because expansion beyond a basic dmx dongle is expensive. A MA PC wing can be as much as $8,500 and if you want more then a few faders and a quarter universe you're looking at the S1 for $5,500.


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## Pie4Weebl (Jan 21, 2016)

For my company I looked at the various options for control about a year ago. I landed on the Avo Quartz. A real, full body console, 4 universes, artnet up 16, 10 playbacks and 20 assignable buttons, for about the same price an MA wing with computer and pellican. I've been very happy with it and it does everything I need for my clients. 

But, for the cheaper clients and for anyone looking for physical control at the absolute cheapest price possible (and not some midi BS) the Martin M-Touch is my favorite. Reasonably powerful software, easy to learn and only $500.

I'd love to see MA release a real ultralite 2 size console, in the frame of the series 1. For people who expect that, or a ion based console for under $5,000, you're just being greedy and entitled.


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## MNicolai (Jan 21, 2016)

I don't think ETC would put R&D, marketing, and tech support services into releasing a new console at a sub $3500 price point unless they could differentiate substantially from existing products without making Element irrelevant. They won't want to compete with their own product line, and they won't want to do something for the sake of people wanting them to offer a product in an already saturated market. I think that's why it was so long before ETC released a fresnel. They didn't want to do it just because it would round out their product line. If they were going to do it, it was going to be because they had a more innovative solution to offer.

It's like every time another loudspeaker manufacturer releases a line array. The market for line array systems is 500% saturated with options and the only way to stand out is to offer product features someone else can't, or to offer the highest quality product any manufacturer can at the price point. Simply have an okay-sounding speaker for the price isn't going to get any traction in that market.

Another consideration is that offering a console at such a low price point doesn't help sell systems. When a Gio gets spec'd in a new theater, it's probably getting paired with Net3 distribution, Sensor dimming, ETC power distribution, ETC architectural controls, maybe ETC LED fixtures, maybe ETC rigging.

When a SmartFade-esque console gets sold, it probably lives on an island as the only ETC product in sight unless there are a few S4 Jr's with it or a Smartbar. If ETC were highly successful in this market, it would end up having little or no influence on their overall sales. That sounds greedy at first glance but remember that it's the kind of profits ETC can bring in currently that allow them to have stellar technical and customer support, product lineups that don't cut corners, and allows them to fund all that R&D so they can keep developing products that no one has created before.

The other thing is that there's an expectations game at play. People generally have high expectations when they see the ETC logo on something -- that is, they have _higher_ expectations of a low-cost ETC product than they do a similarly priced DJ-grade product. If a DJ product at $1500 is difficult to use, requires lots of workarounds, has no flexibility and bupkis customer support, people will get frustrated for a short while, learn to cope, and move on. If a similar $1500 product from ETC has even an inkling of one of those characteristics, people will consider it a black mark on ETC's record and will hold a grudge against them for it.

Also remember that ETC's been a company of people driven to create solutions that turn the entertainment and architectural industries on their heads. I'm not sure you'll find product developers there who dream about making a product for an already saturated market that it would be incredibly difficult to innovate with. That kind of "innovation" isn't innovation at all. It's taking a product like Element and offering it to the world for $1200/pop, and I don't think the whole of ETC's business model can sustain that kind of charitable generosity.


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## TJCornish (Jan 22, 2016)

@Pie4Weebl - The total value of my lighting rig excluding the board is ~$25K. My complaint isn't that there are boards out there that cost $XX,XXX, but that other than wing-based products (and I have an M-Touch on the way), there isn't a self-contained board out there that can drive my rig effectively for busking in the ways I want for less than 30% of the cost of my entire rig. I find that too high, and with the prices of cool fixtures continuing to come down, this problem gets worse, not better. On the audio side, my console cost is closer to 5% of the cost of the rig. Someone will eventually come to fill in this niche. MA will probably not be leading the charge, but more likely Martin, as they're aggressively pursuing this market, or a few other 2nd tier folks like Chamsys.

@MNicolai - I realize I'm posting on a theater-centric forum and ETC is a theater-focused company, but that's not really my world. Other than liking and using S4 lekos, there isn't much ETC offers that I am likely to buy - at least from their current portfolio. My dimmers are Leprecon, my LED wash fixtures are Chauvet, and my profile movers are Vari-lite. If ETC wants to compete in my world I will welcome it, and this would be an expansion of their business into a completely new market for them.

On the support and development issue, I would really like someone to explain to me why virtually everybody has a PC-version of their software that is either free or at a tiny fraction of the cost of their desk, and it's effectively the control surface that costs $XX,XXX. If product development and support were that big of a deal, surely the software would be the expensive part, and not a glorified computer with a touchscreen and a few faders?

I get how business works and that product development and support need to be amortized into the purchase price of the product. I also get that some folks need and are happy to pay for a $60K console, but I have been in the industry long enough to have seen these same arguments break down and the cost of components falls over time. In my opinion, we are at a funny part in the curve where console hardware prices don't make sense in light of the bigger industry. Someone will step in and fix this.


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## robartsd (Jan 22, 2016)

TJCornish said:


> On the support and development issue, I would really like someone to explain to me why virtually everybody has a PC-version of their software that is either free or at a tiny fraction of the cost of their desk, and it's effectively the control surface that costs $XX,XXX. If product development and support were that big of a deal, surely the software would be the expensive part, and not a glorified computer with a touchscreen and a few faders?


In development costs, I'm sure it is the software theat is expensive, not the physical interface; however, charging the customers the big bucks to get a physical interface allows them to differentiate between markets - the lower end settles for the software on a touchscreen computer, but the high end shells out for the physical interface. It also doesn't hurt that production costs for software units are minimal, but hardware unit production is real money. On the support side, it seems telling that the company most renown for support is also the company where actually using the software to run a rig (even without a dedicated physical interface) is fairly expensive. Providing the software cheap, but asking for serious dough for a physical interface is a business model that seems to be working for some companies, but I don't think adding 24/7 phone support or cheap physical interfaces to to software provided at low cost would make a sustaintable business model for any company (I'd be worried that their long term plan is monopolistic domination of the market).


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## sk8rsdad (Jan 22, 2016)

Companies are in the business of making money. Hardware companies are in the business of making hardware that they sell to make money. All other decisions are based on how to maximize the money that is made. There are lots of marketing games that get played to make that happen. 

One thing that continues to make me smile is the smartphone app ecosystem. The conversation goes something like this: 

Customer: I just dropped big money on this smart device. Please give me a free app so I can get it to do something useful.
Vendor: No. I didn't make any money when you bought your smart thingy. You can buy my app.
Customer: Fine. I will go to some other vendor then.
Vendor: Here's your free app. Now please buy something from me so we can feed the people that made the app.
Customer: No. I already got your free app, which is excellent BTW, and found some cheaper thing that will work with it.
Vendor: Will you buy something from our "Going out of business" sale?
Customer: Nope. I can get it cheaper from the liquidator after you close your doors.

There's really no such thing as a free lunch. Somebody somewhere is getting screwed.


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## Pie4Weebl (Jan 22, 2016)

sk8rsdad said:


> Companies are in the business of making money. Hardware companies are in the business of making hardware that they sell to make money. All other decisions are based on how to maximize the money that is made. There are lots of marketing games that get played to make that happen.
> 
> One thing that continues to make me smile is the smartphone app ecosystem. The conversation goes something like this:
> 
> ...



And that's why I roll my eyes at everyone who has cobbled together a "hack-MA" out of an MA node and a bunch of midi controllers.


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## Jay Ashworth (Nov 28, 2016)

Robartsd nails the market stratification answer, but I'd like to expand.

There isn't all that much you can do with a Nikon D3 that you can't do with an iPhone 6, but the Nikon *has a physical knob for every damn function*. 

When you're making a real, honest to ghod living with the device, day in and day out, that will make or break you, so it has inherent value.

Same thing with the ETC Nomad and the various wings that can talk to it.

If you can live with, say, running Nomad/Eos on a 24" All-in-1 PC, more power to you, and lots of people can.

For those who can't, there's Ion.


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## EdSavoie (Nov 28, 2016)

I'm sure this will solidify a reputation as a cheap DIY technician, but for anyone with programming experience and the right tools, you could make you own board out of modular components, and hook it up to a laptop for more crunch power. 

Potentiometers with screw mount PCBs will set you back about two bucks each, and additionally you could mount anything under the sun if you so choose to.

Feeling nostalgic? Use a 16x2 character display, and tack on an LPT connection for terminal output. 
Feeling fancy? Try driving an LCD.
Feeling _ Really _ nostalgic? Use nothing but indicator lamps.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Nov 28, 2016)

Even nixie tubes?


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## STEVETERRY (Nov 28, 2016)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> Even nixie tubes?



Re: Nixie Tubes.

See attached for the clock in my office. East German Nixie tubes with 100mm tall characters, GPS satellite locked.

ST


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## Jay Ashworth (Nov 28, 2016)

What are you selling those for, Steve?


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## JohnD (Nov 28, 2016)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> Even nixie tubes?


Might I also suggest Cat's eye tubes aka magic eye tubes:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_eye_tube


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## EdSavoie (Nov 28, 2016)

OOoooo hadn't thought of nixie tubes, and I didn't even know the magic eye tubes existed!


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## STEVETERRY (Nov 29, 2016)

Jay Ashworth said:


> What are you selling those for, Steve?



Sorry, not for sale. The 100mm tall Nixies are no longer available. The guy that designed this clock passed away a couple of year ago, so the existing clocks are the last of their breed.

ST


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## jonliles (Nov 29, 2016)

I don't have any Nixies, but I have a stock of Numitrons. Best thing about the numitrons is that they are rated for low voltage (between 3.5&5 Vdc). I'm using them to build a clock similar to Mr Terry's above.


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## gafftaper (Nov 29, 2016)

Jay Ashworth said:


> What are you selling those for, Steve?


Wow Nixie Tube Clocks are widely available in a bunch of different styles over on Etsy and Ebay! Prices seem to start around $60 and run up to about $300 depending on how many tubes and if you have a fancy case or not. You can also get a kit on Ebay to build your own. I know what I'm putting on my Christmas List!


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## STEVETERRY (Nov 30, 2016)

gafftaper said:


> Wow Nixie Tube Clocks are widely available in a bunch of different styles over on Etsy and Ebay! Prices seem to start around $60 and run up to about $300 depending on how many tubes and if you have a fancy case or not. You can also get a kit on Ebay to build your own. I know what I'm putting on my Christmas List!



Try for one with a GPS receiver so you never have to worry about setting the time.

ST


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