# Good PA brands and models for a church



## THORNSZ (Mar 20, 2013)

what do you think is good for a church? we currently have a pair of *Yamaha C115V *as the main speakers right now and we're planning on replacing them with some passive good ones. Any suggestions? include a good Subwoofer too! thanks


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## museav (Mar 20, 2013)

What is wrong with the C115Vs you have (which by the way are a passive or unpowered speaker) and why are you replacing them?

Selecting speakers generally requires considering the space, your needs and goals, the budget, the rest of the system and existing equipment, etc. - none of which are identified. I recall that your church does not want to pay anyone to do this but getting someone qualified to help you put together an overall plan could actually save them money, much less provide more value from what you do spend.


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## THORNSZ (Mar 21, 2013)

museav said:


> What is wrong with the C115Vs you have (which by the way are a passive or unpowered speaker) and why are you replacing them?
> 
> Selecting speakers generally requires considering the space, your needs and goals, the budget, the rest of the system and existing equipment, etc. - none of which are identified. I recall that your church does not want to pay anyone to do this but getting someone qualified to help you put together an overall plan could actually save them money, much less provide more value from what you do spend.



true that, its the passive one by the way... 

We just want something better than the It; more good sounding. 
Well we can always still use the yamaha eventually prolly as a wedge monitor and not get rid of it. 
For me, the yamaha is decently nice.


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## DuckJordan (Mar 21, 2013)

the problem with sounding better is its going to cost more, you may also just need to get the system properly setup. I'm amazed at how many churches i go into and tweek the EQ a bit and it sounds ten times better and costs them an hour of pay for me.


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## THORNSZ (Mar 21, 2013)

well of course guys, i know it would cost us more. Thats why i'm asking right now coz we're willing to spend more to achieve the good sound we're looking for


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## gbirdsall (Mar 21, 2013)

What is your budget?
Size of the space?
What amps do you currently have? and are you looking at replacing those as well?
Who is gunna be working with them and can they eq a room properly?
Is this a perminant install or is it struck after every service?

There is alot that goes into designing a system, and to ecco what duck said its amazing what some tuning can do. 
I personally have 6 of the C115v's in my band rig and think that they are a decent cabinet.


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## techieman33 (Mar 21, 2013)

If your willing to spend more to get a better sound then the first step is hiring someone to come in and evaluate the space, make some recommendations, and then come in and help you set it up and tune the system for the room.


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## museav (Mar 21, 2013)

THORNSZ said:


> We just want something better than the It; more good sounding.


Again, what about the C115V do you find inadequate? What would you consider "more good sounding"? Just trying to get an understanding of what you are looking for or hoping to achieve.


THORNSZ said:


> Well we can always still use the yamaha eventually prolly as a wedge monitor and not get rid of it.


I won't say you can't use the C115V as a floor monitor but it is an awkward form factor for that use. I also wonder if you need large floor monitors or if they might even potentially be detrimental.


I agree with the other comments, the results are not just about the gear used but also greatly dependent on how it is used. The physical 'stuff' is basically one-third of the equation. Properly applied and implemented equipment will usually also provide better results regardless of the quality of the gear itself. And a skilled operator can often get the most out of less than ideal equipment while an unskilled one may get lesser results from better gear. Too many experiences going into venues looking for new products to fix their problems only to find the problem is not the equipment itself but how it is implemented and/or operated.

Somewhat related to that, I noted you are apparently looking for someone to help lead your audio team. From experience, I suggest you hold off on any decisions until after that person is hired. It's apparently already too late on the mixer but whoever you get involved, and especially once they get to know your church and the situation better, may have ideas or personal preferences that should be considered. 

Just to help us understand the situation better, are you building a new space or renovating an existing space? Are you working with a budget or trying to define one? What is your role in the proposed changes and in the church?


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## THORNSZ (Mar 21, 2013)

museav said:


> Somewhat related to that, I noted you are apparently looking for someone to help lead your audio team. From experience, I suggest you hold off on any decisions until after that person is hired. It's apparently already too late on the mixer but whoever you get involved, and especially once they get to know your church and the situation better, may have ideas or personal preferences that should be considered.
> 
> Just to help us understand the situation better, are you building a new space or renovating an existing space? Are you working with a budget or trying to define one? What is your role in the proposed changes and in the church?



i think you guys are right. I never considered that too. thanks for pointing that out. But for now, we're about to purchase the X32 and all the stuff necessary for it like the S16, P16-I,D,M. we just wanna get rid of the amps on stage. That should be good for now, regardless of the space we have and i'm pretty much sure that we can use them on our upcoming new building


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## Spresley (Mar 21, 2013)

THORNSZ said:


> i think you guys are right. I never considered that too. thanks for pointing that out. But for now, we're about to purchase the X32 and all the stuff necessary for it like the S16, P16-I,D,M. we just wanna get rid of the amps on stage. That should be good for now, regardless of the space we have and i'm pretty much sure that we can use them on our upcoming new building




I agree with what everyone has said so far... (RE Getting someone to look at your space and choose speakers to best be used in that space)
For what you were initiall asking though, there are several "high end" options for you to choose from. Meyer, L'accoustics, Nexo, Danley, D&B, EV, EAW should be some names that are on the top of your list. They offer alot of scaled options for your NEW venue...


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## Aman121 (Mar 21, 2013)

I would hesitate to make any purchase until you either move into your new space, or have an idea of what equipment is being installed there. Forgive me, but you don't seem to be highly informed about every aspect of the situation, or it at least seems to come off that way in your posts. It seems that you are just eager to add equipment without thinking long term .


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## THORNSZ (Mar 22, 2013)

Aman121 said:


> I would hesitate to make any purchase until you either move into your new space, or have an idea of what equipment is being installed there. Forgive me, but you don't seem to be highly informed about every aspect of the situation, or it at least seems to come off that way in your posts. It seems that you are just eager to add equipment without thinking long term .



well yeah, more likely to be an upgrade! The mixer and the stuffs are necessary for now right? X32,S16,P16s?? should be. since we can always reuse them whenever we transfer


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## Aman121 (Mar 22, 2013)

THORNSZ said:


> well yeah, more likely to be an upgrade! The mixer and the stuffs are necessary for now right? X32,S16,P16s?? should be. since we can always reuse them whenever we transfer




But do you know if a console is speced for the new space? If so, it might make sense to tough it out on your old console for another year before moving to the new space. It's questions like these that need to be brought up when ever purchasing equipment is considered. Unless of course you have money to spare and can afford to buy lots of extra equipment that might not get used when you transfer.


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## museav (Mar 22, 2013)

THORNSZ said:


> well yeah, more likely to be an upgrade! The mixer and the stuffs are necessary for now right? X32,S16,P16s?? should be. since we can always reuse them whenever we transfer


Only you and your church can decide if it makes sense to make any changes or purchases now rather than to wait until you move to the new facility but if that move is definite and especially if some related planning is in progress then I suggest considering how anything you do now supports what is being planned for the new facility and the long term vision for the church.

If it has not already been done then it would probably be beneficial to put together a Master Plan for the technology in the new facility, focusing first on the desired functionality and use of the technology and letting that define the technology required to support what is defined. Once that is done you can then look at anything you consider now in terms of not just addressing your immediate needs but also how it fits into the long term plans and goals.


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## temper (Mar 22, 2013)

I know this situation all too well. I've been down this road a number of times, pretty much each time on the other side coming in and cleaning up the mess that other people made. It's a very frustrating experience for everyone involved when they realize that they shelled out money for a system that just doesn't work. Please, take our advice before you guys get too far down this path.

First, if at all possible, find someone who has designed house of worship sound systems previously. If you need to pay them, do it, but get some help, preferably someone who will physically go look at your space. House of worship sound systems are just so different than others that what people think they know from running a bar, gigging in a band, running theater or a tour, or building their home theater, it just doesn't apply.

You need someone to design a system and train you on it because, understand this, a good sound engineer can make mediocre gear sound great, and someone without training can make a 100k system sound horrible. 

If you don't take that advice, at least do the following:

1. post a list of all your current gear
2. post a list of what you want to acquire and/or replace
3. post pictures of your current space, and plans of your new space
4. for the next 5 sundays go to different churches that you want to be like and research their systems and talk to their tech and non-tech people how what they like/hate and post it here so we can help you put a system together that doesn't horribly suck.

Just as a side note, this weekend I get to go consign several pieces of gear that our church acquired without forethought and essentially wasted their money on. Last night, I hung a bunch of LED lights, 6 of them that are almost worthless for anything other than straight blue/green/red and too dim for anything other than accents. They spent a bunch on them several years ago, but I couldn't sell them now for the price of a par can. I'd rather have the par cans.

When you spend other people's money, especially in a church, you have a moral responsibility to not screw it up.


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## JohnD (Mar 22, 2013)

I don't know if you have seen this, but I think it is worth a look. (PDF warning)
http://audiosystemsgroup.com/3Times.pdf
I would also suggest you take a look at Prosoundweb.com in the church forums, spend a few days browsing the posts.
Then spend some time tire kicking at various stores, both MI and pro. Be warned that the "pros" at your local Banjo Center might actually know less than you do. 
You might also consider that instead of a 2-way plus subs, that a 3-way plus subs is a better fit.


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## neotrotsky (Mar 22, 2013)

As someone who has designed worship hall sound systems before, I cannot help but to enforce what everyone has said here: Don't buy kit until you know what is causing what you have now to seem lacking. I noticed the first thing on the purchase list is the Behringer X32, and you seem quite keen on it. Do you know why your group needs it? What advantage does it quantitively give you over the console you have now? What board are you using at the moment? The X32 is quite a bit of cash for a church, and I've encountered several churches who were insistent on a board like that but ended up being quite well suited with something like a PreSonus for a fraction of the cost. The same with speakers: better to know *why* you need new speakers instead of insisting that, since the sound isn't up to par, it's a problem with the equipment and the solution is to buy more.


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## Koopdaddy (Mar 22, 2013)

I love getting new gear just as much as anyone...but to disregard the above advice is just bad stewardship .

There are many good brands from A-Z for church audio systems. Which one is right or you? Well that can't possibly be answered without a professional consultation with your decision makers, architects, technical crew, etc to find out what you truly need, what you already have.

To do anything less is a waste of your time (and ours) and money. Can't really say it any other way.

I hope whatever you end up with works for you. I know it can be frustrating working with church boards and budgets. 

Jared


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## TimmyP1955 (Mar 23, 2013)

How wide is the room? How deep? Flat or tiered floor? Will they be flown or on stands? Voice only, or a rockin' band? Without this info, recommendations don't mean a lot.


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## Koopdaddy (Mar 23, 2013)

As far as which brands are good for churches, perhaps it would be easier ask which are not good for churches as that would be a shorter list.


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## museav (Mar 25, 2013)

Koopdaddy said:


> As far as which brands are good for churches, perhaps it would be easier ask which are not good for churches as that would be a shorter list.


Actually, which brands and models are good for a church and which brands and models are poor for a church might have a lot in common, it all depends on the situation and what is a good solution in one situation may be a bad option in a different situation.

If you want to address which brands or models have a good or bad reputation in general, are generally liked or not or are common or not then that is a different discussion as you are removing all references to any particular situation. Of course what is offered in that context then cannot be assumed to be applicable to all or any one particular application.


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## THORNSZ (Mar 25, 2013)

Whoa, this community is really educating me and helping me about the technicalities. Thanks a lot guys! Looks like i need to consider that too. as of now, yes we're about to purchase the X32! 
We might not use the full of it for now, but eventually we will. 32 to inputs, good sounding mixer and 16 auxiliary outs... who doesnt like it? i think a mixer like that is just so flexible. I guess we'll look for a sound engineer for now to evaluate the place. About taking pictures of our equipment and the area of our church, i will post it as soon as i have it. 

For now, if possible can you guys suggest somebody or yourself in my area(Houston) who can help me with this? we badly need a real sound engineer who can setup and train.


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## neotrotsky (Mar 26, 2013)

THORNSZ said:


> Whoa, this community is really educating me and helping me about the technicalities. Thanks a lot guys! Looks like i need to consider that too. as of now, yes we're about to purchase the X32!
> We might not use the full of it for now, but eventually we will. 32 to inputs, good sounding mixer and 16 auxiliary outs... who doesnt like it? i think a mixer like that is just so flexible. I guess we'll look for a sound engineer for now to evaluate the place. About taking pictures of our equipment and the area of our church, i will post it as soon as i have it.
> 
> For now, if possible can you guys suggest somebody or yourself in my area(Houston) who can help me with this? we badly need a real sound engineer who can setup and train.



So, without taking into consideration factors such as:

-Capacity of the house
-Budget of the congregation vs. actual operation costs
-talent and composition of talent
-Composition of materials in the hall in reference to their acoustic properties
-Size and dimensions of the venue in question
-Orientation of the audience in regards to the talent on stage
-Application outside of FOH use for the system

.... You have determined that you *need* a Behringer x32 console. Pardon me for speaking out of turn, but the "reasons" you give pretty much sound like marketing campaign talking points from Behringer, and not in regards to any assessment to the venue you are actually going to be using it in. From my professional experience, VERY few houses of worship require a 32 channel console week to week with full digital function, especially since houses of worship operate with volunteer staff who have very little if any education in show production, audio engineering or mastering. You pithily ask "Who doesn't like it" in reference to the console, being the only component of what you seem to be working towards of a highly complex system that may be out of your bounds. Well, this audio engineer here sure would not spend thousands on a Behringer without knowing what the full application of the system will be and the venue it will be in. Then again, Behringer has a dead reputation in pro audio at best and a joke at worst... but admittedly their sales department and marketing are hard at work trying to convince those not familiar with their blunders of the past otherwise. Many are willing to give them another chance... I'll give them another couple of years before even taking that road again. But that comes from personal experience and the desire to build the best system with the least risk and the most reliability and ease of use/ease of repair in the long term. And, that is a professional "opinion". Others disagree, others agree. That's another aspect of designing a system that makes things very complex. And, to sort out what works for your venue takes time and a lot of collated data.

But, as many have pressed to try to help you not make any missteps, you haven't even presented data that could help determine if you even NEED a digital board, much less the amount of coverage, speakers, power or treatment the room may need. Have you factored room treatment in your budget? I would assume not since you keep going on about the shiny audio console when the room may be a disaster for sound without major treatment work to help it get the most out of whatever system you put in. How about flexibility for talent coming in? Are you even going to have any other talent than the house band? What about power, as in actual 110/220? Have you even determined if you house wiring is even up to spec for a system? You may have ground issues or other clean power issues that could ruin the install of a good system due to faulty or inadequate wiring which could sound horrible at best, and be dangerous and possibly deadly at worst.

I'm not trying to be a know it all... far from it! I don't know your qualifications or background and you may be the perfect person for the job setting up their new system. But there are A LOT of unanswered questions that need to be addressed before one bit of patch cable is even purchased. For a *true* high end system, you could be spending anywhere from $500 to $20,000 to get the venue up to spec acoustically and electrically before you can even get to talking about what kind of gear to use.

There are many well-experienced people on here who are trying to help, and they are all saying the same thing: Brand A or Brand B isn't going to give you an out of the box perfect sound. It simply ins't that easy, and they all would love to save you headache and money. I would listen.


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## THORNSZ (Mar 26, 2013)

We just need a good mixer to replace our current dying old eurodesk. We may not use the X32's full potential but eventually we will. We just want to get a good digital one for now. and besides it's only a mixer, not an overkill speaker. So what do you think should i do? we're currently raising funds for it at the moment. Why not for the X32? What should i consider besides the venue?


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## bishopthomas (Mar 26, 2013)

I am of the mentality of "buy once cry once." This is a concept that churches seemingly have never heard of. It's so typical of a house of worship (any group, really, but I've found the HOW group to be especially bad) to buy only for their immediate needs. While I agree that you should assess what your current needs are and ensure that you make a purchase that will meet those specific needs, I think that it's irresponsible to only think in the short term. I think you'll be quite happy with this mixer (as long as you realize the side effects of switching to digital) and it will PROBABLY serve your needs for a long time, in any space. On the other hand, it was touched upon by someone but I want to reinforce it: If your new project can absorb the cost of the mixer then think about holding off if at all possible. If you're building a new structure then a $3000 mixer will be NOTHING compared to everything else involved. I'm not saying that you should sneak it in, but if you're installing a completely new sound system in a completely new building then there's no reason why this mixer wouldn't be part of that expense. Trust me, it will be easier to come up with the money and justify buying a new mixer to the staff and/or congregation if it's going directly into this new space. I was a TD at a large baptist church for a few years and I know how these things work.


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## THORNSZ (Mar 26, 2013)

bishopthomas said:


> I am of the mentality of "buy once cry once." This is a concept that churches seemingly have never heard of. It's so typical of a house of worship (any group, really, but I've found the HOW group to be especially bad) to buy only for their immediate needs. While I agree that you should assess what your current needs are and ensure that you make a purchase that will meet those specific needs, I think that it's irresponsible to only think in the short term. I think you'll be quite happy with this mixer (as long as you realize the side effects of switching to digital) and it will PROBABLY serve your needs for a long time, in any space. On the other hand, it was touched upon by someone but I want to reinforce it: If your new project can absorb the cost of the mixer then think about holding off if at all possible. If you're building a new structure then a $3000 mixer will be NOTHING compared to everything else involved. I'm not saying that you should sneak it in, but if you're installing a completely new sound system in a completely new building then there's no reason why this mixer wouldn't be part of that expense. Trust me, it will be easier to come up with the money and justify buying a new mixer to the staff and/or congregation if it's going directly into this new space. I was a TD at a large baptist church for a few years and I know how these things work.



How will be the X32 be NOTHING on the new building? i dont really get it! its just a mixer, not a speaker. How will the new space affect the mixer? you could always change it again and fit it according to the area and its needs. We're getting this X32 knowing that we could use it now and eventually on our new space. i still dont get it why you guys are against this.


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## bishopthomas (Mar 27, 2013)

I'm not sure what you're trying to say in the first sentence. Why would you want to "change it again?" I don't think the people paying for this mixer would appreciate this attitude. I'm not saying I'm against it, I actually thought I made it VERY clear that it's almost certainly a good idea. I was just trying to tell you that it might be easier to come up with (and justify) the funds if you roll it into the new building capital expense. Quite honestly, though, at this point I kind of feel that you are just looking for a new toy to play with and looking for our approval. I think it's a spectacular idea to wait for this new hire to come in before you stick him/her on a console that he/she may not want to use or be comfortable on. Who knows, maybe this new person already has a Digico console and would stick it in the church just to have a home for it. 

Hmmm. I think you need to re-read my post with a different attitude.


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## THORNSZ (Mar 27, 2013)

bishopthomas said:


> I'm not sure what you're trying to say in the first sentence. Why would you want to "change it again?" I don't think the people paying for this mixer would appreciate this attitude. I'm not saying I'm against it, I actually thought I made it VERY clear that it's almost certainly a good idea. I was just trying to tell you that it might be easier to come up with (and justify) the funds if you roll it into the new building capital expense. Quite honestly, though, at this point I kind of feel that you are just looking for a new toy to play with and looking for our approval. I think it's a spectacular idea to wait for this new hire to come in before you stick him/her on a console that he/she may not want to use or be comfortable on. Who knows, maybe this new person already has a Digico console and would stick it in the church just to have a home for it.
> 
> Hmmm. I think you need to re-read my post with a different attitude.



Hahaha i am definitely calm on reading your post, i'm not just pointing this out to you my friend. When i said "change it again" i meant tweaking it according to the new church's place from the present one. Another factor that made me into the X32 is that it is one of the cheapest reliable digital mixers on the market besides the Presonus Studio Live. I already made a thread about its comparison and it came out that the X32 is better. Price and quality wise. _*"at this point I kind of feel that you are just looking for a new toy to play with and looking for our approva"*_ besides that it is our need, i sort of agree on that statement . If ever we purchase this Mixer, this will prolly my first digital mixer encounter. gosh Digico would be a blast! haha


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## museav (Mar 27, 2013)

Perhaps it simply boils down to making purchases you want versus making purchases to support a plan. Most houses of worship find it beneficial to first develop a plan for how media technology fits into their overall vision. What is its role, how can it support the overall goals and so on. Once the general goals and purpose for any media technology are defined then that can be used as a guideline for determining the actual technical requirements. What technology is involved, what specific requirements are defined, etc. Once you have that then you can start looking at the actual technical system solutions that may be appropriate to fulfill those requirements and goals. And finally, once you have developed the general system concepts you can look at specific products that may support the concept defined. If you go the other direction with selecting equipment first then in the end the equipment selected may end up limiting or not supporting the overall goals.

Using a car analogy, you could go to a dealership and buy whatever grabs your attention that day or you could ask people online what car to purchase and get a bunch of responses based on different situations and preferences. But you probably want to avoid buying a car that is too small for your family or getting something that doesn't fit in the garage or that your spouse can't drive or that can't tow the boat or trailer you already have. What most people would do is determine what they need and want from a car before they go shopping or asking for input from others. The same general idea seems to apply here.


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## rwhealey (Mar 27, 2013)

I would spend the money you raise on an acoustical consultant to design a sound system you can buy in phases. An acoustical consultant works with you and has no agenda for you to buy product, unlike a contractor or a manufacture salesman (not that there aren't honest contractors and salesmen out there - but you really need to trust who you're hiring). You will end up with a much better sound system in the end, even if you have to spend a little more time doing it!

There are some great consultants in Texas: http://www.ncac.com/directory.php?state=TX


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## THORNSZ (Mar 27, 2013)

museav said:


> Using a car analogy, you could go to a dealership and buy whatever grabs your attention that day or you could ask people online what car to purchase and get a bunch of responses based on different situations and preferences. But you probably want to avoid buying a car that is too small for your family or getting something that doesn't fit in the garage or that your spouse can't drive or that can't tow the boat or trailer you already have. What most people would do is determine what they need and want from a car before they go shopping or asking for input from others. The same general idea seems to apply here.



So basically you're saying that the mixer might be too small for our needs? Just to give you an idea, our church isn't that big yet. On Sundays we usually have people ranging around 60-100+ regularly.
Here is a rough estimate of the dimension of our church area, this may not be accurate but here is it: 60-100 ft distance from stage to the sound booth X 100-120 ft wide. Our place isnt that proportioned, as you can see the stage is located at the corner that means more audience space of the left side. so whenever we'll purchase the x32, s16,p16 ,etc i'm planning of having all the instruments direct in and the drums be miced up, of course isolate it on a drum cage too!




rwhealey said:


> I would spend the money you raise on an acoustical consultant to design a sound system you can buy in phases. An acoustical consultant works with you and has no agenda for you to buy product, unlike a contractor or a manufacture salesman (not that there aren't honest contractors and salesmen out there - but you really need to trust who you're hiring). You will end up with a much better sound system in the end, even if you have to spend a little more time doing it!
> 
> There are some great consultants in Texas: NCAC : Directory



Thanks for pointing that out! currently check on that link that you gave me.


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## bishopthomas (Mar 27, 2013)

What in the world does the size of your space have to do with what your qualifications of a mixer are? I'm sorry to put it so bluntly but you REALLY need to hire a consultant. Just in your comment about plugging "all the instruments direct in" tells me that you're not even familiar with the gear that you are so dead set on purchasing. Please take some responsibility for the things that you are using OTHER PEOPLE'S money to buy and either learn a ton of information in a short period of time or hire someone who already has this knowledge.


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## temper (Mar 27, 2013)

Thornsz, thanks for posting the picture and rough specs for the building. Is this your current place or new place? If it is not your new space, can you post dimensions and plans? And a timeline of when you would be in the space? Can you also post your churches annual budget amount? 

So I think we are at least making a little progress here. It seems like there are bunch of things in limbo at the moment. First is that the current mixer is dying and you need a new one. If that's the case, then you need to replace it. You could consider a small analog desk if this truly a temporary desk. 

Btw, is this currently a portable church or do you leave it set up? 

So, I'd recommend you find a sound engineer in Houston. In the mean time, I wouldn't spend much money on the current gear and focus on trouble areas. If your mixer is dying, try finding a temporary used or new small analog one like one of the Allen and Heath ones. If you don't have a set of graphic eps and know how to use them, that's the next step I would try. After that, I'd just save the money, time and effort specing a new system for the new space with the help of a consultant.

I'd also suggest a good electronic or hybrid drum set in a space that size. I have met very few people who can get an acoustic set tuned and miced and mixed properly in a room that size, and when I've seen it, it usually is with some decently expensive gear.

I'd also check your speakers and monitors for blown drivers. 

Btw, it does make a difference in which mixer you buy for a new building. If you buy the mixer now and spec the rest of the system in 1-2 years, what happens if a differnt type of digital snake would make more sense? What happens if you want to get a personal monitor mixer system like Aviom but it doesn't interface digitally with the x32? Have you seen the A&H gld80 system? But, the biggest thing in the digital sound world is that it's just getting started, so the longer you push off getting a system, the more and better the options will be. 

I just went through this with my church and decided to get a temporary analog mixer until we see how things play out (the aux pots on the mixer went out and it was not worth repairing). We don't have a pressing need to get into a digital mixer right now, so we might as well wait until we need something more permanent.

All this to say, x32 may not be a bad mixer, but just be cautious thinking it will fit right into a new system speced in the future. It very well may not. 

Good luck!


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## THORNSZ (Mar 27, 2013)

bishopthomas said:


> What in the world does the size of your space have to do with what your qualifications of a mixer are? I'm sorry to put it so bluntly but you REALLY need to hire a consultant. Just in your comment about plugging "all the instruments direct in" tells me that you're not even familiar with the gear that you are so dead set on purchasing. Please take some responsibility for the things that you are using OTHER PEOPLE'S money to buy and either learn a ton of information in a short period of time or hire someone who already has this knowledge.


 Well, the people above are mentioning stuffs like the dimension... they're saying that it might not be enough. plus the direct in? of course it instrument>direct box> mixer


temper said:


> Thornsz, thanks for posting the picture and rough specs for the building. Is this your current place or new place? If it is not your new space, can you post dimensions and plans? And a timeline of when you would be in the space? Can you also post your churches annual budget amount?
> 
> So I think we are at least making a little progress here. It seems like there are bunch of things in limbo at the moment. First is that the current mixer is dying and you need a new one. If that's the case, then you need to replace it. You could consider a small analog desk if this truly a temporary desk.
> 
> ...



This is our current space. Well for now, getting a decent temporary mixer is still gonna cost much. like what you said allen and heat mixers, its gonna cost $2k and above depending on the spec. A&H gld80? thats 11 grand bro! thats freakin expensive! Behringer X32 only cost $3k!our church cant afford that for now... Aviom?? yup we're planning on getting some personal mixers/monitors too to get rid of the amps. I'm glad behringer has their o budget version of it and it's pretty reliable too! it's the Behringer powerplay p16-m. Its have the price of the aviom personal mixer plus it is very compatible with the mixer that we desired which is the Behringer X32. Mixer>s16 digital snake>P16 Distributor > to the personal mixer/monitor P16-m. Very cost efficient! and about our drums? it's pretty decent too! Grestch renown loaded with Zildjian Ks! On the setting we have right now, i'm surprised that its not that loud than how it suppose to be. 
We just need to isolate the drums with a cage and close mic them for now to have more control with it.

Our place's dimension: 60-100 ft distance from stage to the sound booth X 100+ ft wide


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## museav (Mar 28, 2013)

THORNSZ said:


> So basically you're saying that the mixer might be too small for our needs? Just to give you an idea, our church isn't that big yet. On Sundays we usually have people ranging around 60-100+ regularly.
> Here is a rough estimate of the dimension of our church area, this may not be accurate but here is it: 60-100 ft distance from stage to the sound booth X 100-120 ft wide. Our place isnt that proportioned, as you can see the stage is located at the corner that means more audience space of the left side. so whenever we'll purchase the x32, s16,p16 ,etc i'm planning of having all the instruments direct in and the drums be miced up, of course isolate it on a drum cage too!


You seem to be missing the point. We don't know if the mixer you propose if too small, too big or just right (insert Goldilocks joke of your choice) and it is probably not going to depend on the number of attendees or the size of the space. How did you determine what you need or want from a mixer and how it fits into any 'bigger picture'? How many and what types of inputs and outputs does the mixer need to support and could that change with the new venue? What processing and effects should it provide? How is the connectivity of the mixer to the stage and speakers being handled? Might the money you spend now on a mixer affect the budget you have for the rest of the system for the new venue?

As far as NCAC, acoustical consultants address acoustics and may or may not address electroacoustics - look through the NCAC membership and you will find firms who do not offer consulting on audio systems or that have limited experience with house of worship applications. And while I would recommend most of the NCAC members, membership is purely voluntary and it is difficult to tie qualifications in acoustics down to specific degrees, licenses, certifications, etc, thus NCAC has always struggled with membership qualifications. As a result there are many qualified acoustical and electroacoustical consultants who are not NCAC members.

Some of the NCAC members listings are also inaccurate. For example, Pelton Marsh Kinsella that is listed in the link provided no longer exists. The contact listed, David Marsh, formed a new company with Gary Kinsella almost four years ago as Kinsella-Marsh Group kinsella-marsh and KMG is a NCAC member but with Gary Kinsella as the contact and listed for Florida rather than Texas (see http://www.ncac.com/documents/NCACDirectory_002.pdf).


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## bishopthomas (Mar 28, 2013)

THORNSZ said:


> Well, the people above are mentioning stuffs like the dimension... they're saying that it might not be enough. plus the direct in? of course it instrument>direct box> mixer



Well, anyone trying to make a connection between size of your space and mixer requirements are clueless. Part of the problem of the Internet; the only way to filter out the crap is by knowing what is crap. And I know that that's crap.

Okay, by "direct in" you mean using a DI between the instrument and console. I'm only going off the information you have provided, another problem with the Internet. 

I don't agree that you should buy something for in the meantime. As I stated above, if your mixer is no longer usable then you need a replacement. The X32 will probably be a good choice for the new space. And as you know, a replacement analog mixer is going to cost almost what the X32 does, so you might as well go ahead and buy it. If by some chance you need something different for the new space you could sell the X32, although I know how difficult it is to make these kinds of transactions when you're involved in church audio.

I just looked at the thread title and read your first post and was reminded that you were looking for PA suggestions. It seems like this thread got morphed into a discussion about whether or not you should buy the X32. Was your original question answered or are you putting the PA discussion on hold for now? While a mixer is fairly straight forward in regards to making a decision, the PA itself is not and I would definitely recommend hiring in a consultant. But, as Brad said, an acoustical designer is (as the name suggests) really only concerned with the "sound" of the space. They will be assessing where acoustical treatment should be placed in an existing space, and can be more involved with the architectural layout of a new design. If that's what you need for the new building by all means give one a call, but I would suggest hiring someone who actually does more of systems design and integration.


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## gafftaper (Mar 28, 2013)

THORNSZ said:


> Another factor that made me into the X32 is that it is one of the cheapest reliable digital mixers on the market besides the Presonus Studio Live. I already made a thread about its comparison and it came out that the X32 is better. Price and quality wise.




THORNSZ said:


> Aviom?? yup we're planning on getting some personal mixers/monitors too to get rid of the amps. I'm glad behringer has their o budget version of it and it's pretty reliable too! it's the Behringer powerplay p16-m. Its have the price of the aviom personal mixer plus it is very compatible with the mixer that we desired which is the Behringer X32.



You are missing so many points. 

1) Up to this point, Behringer has NEVER made ANYTHING that ANY professional audio engineer would consider reliable. Read that sentence again. Got it? Maybe you should read it one more time. The X32 has been out 6 months or so. It sounds surprisingly great, it runs great. But no one, except Behringer, is saying it's a long term reliable durable mixer. That is not enough time to declare something reliable. It might be, it might not. It may fall apart in two years (like your Behringer Eurodesk is doing). The X32 has all the features of a $10,000 mixer and they sell it for $3,000. How do they sell it that cheap? Are the just more generous than the other companies? No. Part of the reason is they bought Midas and are copying some of their own technology. But part of the reason MUST be that they are cutting corners somewhere on the quality of internal components. If it wasn't then Midas would have a $3,000 mixer too... but they don't. So where does the huge cut in cost come from? Did they cut a corner that means it will die in two years? We have no idea. People on the bleeding edge of technology are out there trying the X32. But anyone with a sense of history in this industry is going to wait a year or two to see how they handle road tours and how they last long term in permanent installations. So realize this, if you buy an X32 you are being a Guinea Pig for me. Thanks, I wouldn't touch one for at least 2 years after initial release, preferably 3 or 4. 

2) You say that the X32 is better in quality than a Presonus. That's a shocking statement. Do you have any idea the history of garbage that Behringer has turned out? The long list of products that were flat out reverse engineered and coppied with cheaper parts? They even copied the spelling errors from another manufacturer's manual. There is a long history of lawsuits. If you read that previous thread, the only criticism of quality that I see of the Presonus is that it sounded a bit thin compared to the Behringer. Note that Bishop said both of them sound better than Yamaha... and Yamaha is pretty much the industry standard when it comes to big digital. So to his ear the X32 sounds better. You may not agree. With the rest of your gear, you may not be able to hear a difference. Heck you may like the sound of Yamaha better. The X32 is cheaper. The X32 may be a great console. But we simply do not know yet if it's reliable. 

3) If you read closely the discussion of the X32 thread you will note that Footer is having a great experience with the X32. But he's also in a massive theater with a HUGE budget. He bought an X32 because to his facility, it's so cheap he can buy it from pocket change rather than deal with the months of paperwork of buying the $20,000 console he originally wanted. He's been surprised at how well it works and how good it sounds. But if it falls apart next year, he has a big enough budget that he can throw it out and buy a new console. To him, it was a quick fix bandage, so far it's working out well, but if it goes bad he's got the budget to toss it and get something else. Let facilities like that take the risk. Wait to hear how well they survive a road tour with a few bands. 

All that aside, and I mean no insult here. But you just don't have the expertise to make this decision and we can't give you credible advice without being in your space, analyzing the acoustics, and looking at the rest of your gear. Buying a new console can be a meaningless act if you don't have quality amps and processing, your speakers are not properly positioned, and the entire system isn't designed to work together well. If you really think you'll be moving into a new facility soon I would look for a used mixer on Craig's list and buy that to get you through. When you move into the new space install a properly designed new system. Show your congregation that you are a good steward of how you spend their money.


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## chieftfac (Mar 28, 2013)

Wow. Thank you everyone for the comments, very good reading. It has helped reinforced my thoughts, in that I have gone about my project of implementing a new sound system the correct way (abet a little too slow) at my performing Arts Center. It has taken me almost two years of talking to consultants, fellow professionals in the industry, reading opinions and renting different gear for band performances to find the best solution for the size of the hall, rider friendliness, and ease of use. Even then, I feel a little trepidation at spending $50k of someone else's money, when most likely in 2 years there will be cheaper solutions that will match the quality or even exceed it. The only advice I can give is slow down. Yes, it's taken me two years to decide the the M7-CL 48 (ES) really is the best fit for our venue, but it was a long road getting there. I know it is dependable and fits my needs the best. As posted above, unless you have got funding to burn, YOU DO NOT NEED TO BE ON THE BLEEDING EDGE OF TECHNOLOGY. Just because something is shiny and new does not mean that it is the best equipment out there or the best fit for your needs. Don't listen to the advertising hype from a dealer. Go out and see other brands in use, rent one first. Talk to people, gather info. then make your decision. You are buying the latest new computer, and with that there are going to be bugs, always.


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## temper (Mar 28, 2013)

THORNSZ, you can buy an A&H zed24 for $600 new all day long. Less, used off ebay. You can get a zed428 for $1000 used usually. My guess is that you can get comparable soundcraft boards for the same. How many channels and sends do you realistically need at the moment before you get a new building? When you get a new building, will you need a smaller mixer for portable events or a youth room?

Just to build on gafftaper's point about behringer, there is not one audio related product that I have used from them that I have truly liked. Some of it is horrible, some of it sounds horrible, and all of it feels and is built super cheap. I have regretted every behringer purchase I and others have made, and the only piece of audio related gear that I am somewhat happy with is their cable tester, and even then the jacks are just not high quality at all - the xlr jacks catch and you have to rip the cable out. So, the cable may have worked when connected to the tester, but you never know if you've broken it while getting it unhooked! 

I too thought about the x32, and I decided to pass. While they acquired midas, maybe they are changing their ways as to quality construction, but I'm going to have to see it to believe it. And that means, at least 5 years of use on an x32. Just wait until one of those motorized faders decides to tank, and it's not going to be pretty. Look, I'm not a typical behringer hater just because of their questionable business practices - that's a different story. I've just not had good luck with their gear and there has always been a nagging regret every time I use a piece of audio gear from them. Let's hope their digital stuff is different.

Have you seen DBX's new snake and personal monitoring system? It might be interesting to see who comes out with a mixer to interface directly with that line.

Most of all, have any of your sound people mixed on a digital mixer? It's a completely different experience for someone volunteering for sound once every few weeks. (Please don't tell me your church has the same person doing sound every week - if that's the case, burn out, burn out, burn out.) I've heard of several churches that replaced their analog mixers with digital mixers and quickly lost all their volunteers because they didn't want to learn something new. I'm not saying that's how it should be, but yet another thing to make this simple decision more complicated for you.


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## gafftaper (Mar 28, 2013)

Congratulations chieftfac, I think you have done it exactly the right way. Your patience and diligence will pay off and you will have a system that sounds fantastic and truly meets your needs.


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## THORNSZ (Mar 28, 2013)

gafftaper said:


> All that aside, and I mean no insult here. But you just don't have the expertise to make this decision and we can't give you credible advice without being in your space, analyzing the acoustics, and looking at the rest of your gear. Buying a new console can be a meaningless act if you don't have quality amps and processing, your speakers are not properly positioned, and the entire system isn't designed to work together well. If you really think you'll be moving into a new facility soon I would look for a used mixer on Craig's list and buy that to get you through. When you move into the new space install a properly designed new system. Show your congregation that you are a good steward of how you spend their money.



that totally makes sense now! So what do you think should i do for now to save the situation? we need to replace the mixer asap, good decent mixer from craiglist is gonna cost us much money too! Do you think we should get the Presonus 32 studiolive instead maybe? we're are looking for a mixer that we can use now and eventually on the new building. What do you think is a good flexible mixer in that price range?


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## gafftaper (Mar 28, 2013)

If I were you I would either get a used console or something like that Allen and Heath Zed24 just suggested... perhaps something Yamaha, Soundcraft, or Mackie. There are a lot of great analog consoles out there that are way better than your current Eurodesk that you can pick up for $600-$1000. Wait until you do the big building upgrade and then get a pro consultant to design an entire system for that new church and do it right from the start no guessing. The console you are buying now can become a backup desk, a stage monitor desk, or can be for the youth room in the new facility (every large church youth group wants a band with their own sound gear in their own service). 

I think it's a very foolish use of your congregation's money to buy a mixer now that you plan to use in a new building someday without knowing every detail of that new facility's needs. You can spend a lot of money on something that once you get there you say, "Yeah it's working, but I wish it could______" and now we are stuck with it. So then you have a $10,000 console you don't like because it doesn't meet all the needs of the future system. If nothing else you can buy that $600-$1000 console now and then sell it on Craigslist and get half your money back out of it when you do the big building upgrade. 

...and for the sake of all that is good in the world, *STOP GOING TO GUITAR CENTER!!!!* They don't know anything! You live in Houston there must be many great theater dealers in that area that can give you solid advice and sell you a quality product. Can anyone recommend a good dealer in Houston for him? Any decent dealer will send a sales person out to your space to help you evaluate your needs and give you a price quote.


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## THORNSZ (Mar 28, 2013)

cool, i'll try to consider that and let see what we can do... Allen and heath Zed is pretty decent too! I'm thinking of a Peavey 24FX II, Mackie VLZ, Yamaha MG, or a soundcraft MG/GB maybe?


off topic: 
Looks like i found another digital mixer with that price range. The Soundcraft Si Expression 32! It's pretty much more reliable than the behringer since Soundcraft is known for making industry standard mixers too! but i'm not sure if it's capable for distributing signals for Aviom,etc... Looks like the Si expression is more like a Studiolive Semi analog digital mixer


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## JLNorthGA (Mar 28, 2013)

temper said:


> behringer, there is not one audio related product that I have used from them that I have truly liked. Some of it is horrible, some of it sounds horrible, and all of it feels and is built super cheap. I have regretted every behringer purchase I and others have made, and the only piece of audio related gear that I am somewhat happy with is their cable tester, and even then the jacks are just not high quality at all - the xlr jacks catch and you have to rip the cable out.



I have one positive comment to make about Behringer. Their Ultra DI box (DI20) is actually pretty good. We bought them because they were inexpensive. They've held up surprisingly well. The sound is reasonable. The connections are good and solid - and I'm not going to sweat it if it gets stepped on, broken or stolen.


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## gafftaper (Mar 28, 2013)

THORNSZ said:


> cool, i'll try to consider that and let see what we can do... Allen and heath Zed is pretty decent too! I'm thinking of a Peavey 24FX II, Mackie VLZ, Yamaha MG, or a soundcraft MG/GB maybe?



I love Allen and Heath consoles. We bought a 16 channel Yamaha MG for my kids' school last year and it's a great little board. Soundcraft also makes excellent products, even in their lower priced product lines, they will serve you well for many years. Mackie is pretty good, but they aren't the indestructible but reasonably priced products they used to be. Some of the guys here have run into some serious quality control concerns recently with Mackie. I wouldn't buy Peavy, they are better than Behringer, but not that much better.

If you can't find a good dealer locally contact CB members Esoteric or BillESC (I would call both). Tell them exactly what you do with your existing system and they will give you a price on a product that they sell. Esoteric is up in Dallas, maybe he'll have a reason to come visit you.


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## THORNSZ (Mar 28, 2013)

thanks man! i'll surely will contact esoteric! Hey, while i was scanning some mixers and i found this Soundcraft Si Expression! it's pretty cost much a bit than the behringer but i believe it's more reliable since it is made by soundcraft. Duh, we all know mixers are soundcraft's expertise. its not out yet but what do you think? it might be an option in the future. I'm currently researching stuff about it.

By the way, who is esoteric? can you give me their link or contact info instead?


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## Koopdaddy (Mar 28, 2013)

gafftaper said:


> The X32 has all the features of a $10,000 mixer and they sell it for $3,000. How do they sell it that cheap? Are the just more generous than the other companies? No. Part of the reason is they bought Midas and are copying some of their own technology. But part of the reason MUST be that they are cutting corners somewhere on the quality of internal components.



Of course that assumes that the $10k mixer actually cost more than the x32 to produce, which is much less than people might think.

Part of the reason Behringer can sell for less is that they own the manufacturing process...which is where they save a good bunch.

Heck the $40k mixers may not really cost that much more than these mixers. You are paying for the name, the engineering skills, features, etc.

I'm not saying that behringer did not make design choices based on price. They surely did . But one cannot simply say that they cut more corners than brand x mixer based simply on price without knowing the actual manufacturing costs.

Bu I do agree that the Op really needs to stop and do this the right way, regardless of which brand console they get. The right mixer and system for them may not be anything suggested in this thread. If the church leadership is wise they will see the value of hiring a professional that can walk then through this.

Jared


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## gafftaper (Mar 28, 2013)

If you send a private message to Esoteric you'll get him. Or Mike if you're reading this send Thornsz your contact info. 

Allen and Heath is working on a new digital console line as well.

But stay focused, buy a console now for less than $1000 that meets your current needs. Save your big money for a complete system, which is designed by a professional, to work together perfectly in the new sanctuary. And don't buy new speakers now either. There's nothing wrong with your current ones. Wait for the new space and put in a set that will match the acoustics of the new sanctuary and match perfectly with your amps, dsp, and subs. You have no idea what the correct combination will be until the new sanctuary is built. Anything you buy now is just a guess towards what will work and you are in all likelihood throwing money away.


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## DuckJordan (Mar 28, 2013)

Not to mention Midas wasn't picked up by the music group until after the manufacture of the X32 so saying they copied the Midas technology is false. Where they are saving is in the manufacturing and also on the sheer volume they are producing and selling. If it takes Midas 50k consoles to start making a profit, X32 sells 250k and makes the same profit. Difference is volume of consoles. Not to mention they don't have the quality control in the parts. They didn't spend $10k on designing the fader system. nor did they spend $40k in motherboard dev. They wen't cheap with most of the parts in the console and thats how they can sell it at $5k less than the competitor due to not having the upfront cost of materials.


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## bishopthomas (Mar 29, 2013)

I haven't used the Expression but I do own an SI Compact 32. I recently had the option of selling it for a little less than the cost of a pair of X32's. I still have it. I did an AB comparison of strictly the sound quality of the SI Compact and the X32 and the Soundcraft was slightly better. It wasn't a huge difference but multiply the minor improvement by the number of channels and it could be significant. Besides sound quality I also have other variables to think about, including name recognition (the SI isn't going to meet any riders but it will still set myself apart from other companies with Behringer gear), ease of layout, etc. 

You didn't answer the question of how many input channels and output busses you actually need at the moment. That is a big determining factor of whether you should get something inexpensive as a temporary fix or go ahead and get whatever will transition to the new facility.


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## THORNSZ (Mar 29, 2013)

bishopthomas said:


> You didn't answer the question of how many input channels and output busses you actually need at the moment. That is a big determining factor of whether you should get something inexpensive as a temporary fix or go ahead and get whatever will transition to the new facility.



Well yeah i agree! Soundcraft is one of the prestige companies who makes industry standard mixers, so pretty much I trust them. I was also so surprised on how user friendly the the Si Compact is according to the video demonstrations on Youtube. When it comes to reliability, what do you think is better? the Studiolive or the x32? 

To answer your question, i need enough channel inputs to control all the instruments and vocals. 7-8 Mics for the drums, 2 electric guitars - 1 acoustic - 1 bass line ins, 2 Synths, 1 Laptop Audio out for the midi controller, 1 Sax mic, 5-8 Singer mics, and 1 preacher mic, thats 30 all in all!!! i guess we need a 32 channel mixer. As far as number of busses is concerned, 6 bus would be fine i guess. A three grand 32 channels mixer would be good for temporary use right, since we can always use them as the youth's Mixer or as a monitor mixer in the future... maybe? i dunno why i'm just so skeptical of getting a cheap mixer. We're currently using an old vintage $500 24 channels Behringer Eurodesk(the first issue) mixer and i totally hate it! It just doesnt sound right plus the LOUD huss is killing me and the mic preamps are really bad. Regardless of that, it only has 2 Aux outs which sucks a lot. More aux outs, the better!


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## temper (Mar 29, 2013)

Do you run in ears or wedges on stage? If wedges, do you run an eq on each channel, and if so, what type? 

From my count, you are putting 12-15 people on stage, is that right? Are you currently micing your drums? I didn't see mics in your picture you posted. I'll just say it again, try to audition a good electronic or hybrid kit for a couple of sundays, you might make life easier on everyone and it might end up sounding better. What setup are you currently using to mic the drum kit (mics, comps, gates, delays, effects, etc)? I'm only bringing this up because a lot times people know something is wrong with the sound and they think it's the desk, or the amps, or the speakers, but there are lots of other variables like how to set up and mic a drum kit, how many performers and monitors on stage, etc. Tweaking those can result in much better sound without any money spent. And, I've found the drum kit is the single hardest thing to get right for most churches.

Anyway, you made a comment how you don't trust the small analog mixers because the eurodesk you have sucks. Well, try a real mixer! You might be surprised that the eq stages on a real mixer actually work properly, and the preamps don't sound like complete garbage. 

I'd personally take Mackie mixers out of the equation, just not a huge fan when you can get a comparable A&H or Soundcraft, but many people do have success with them.


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## neotrotsky (Mar 29, 2013)

I am one of those Mackie guys simply because the older units can be thrown off of a building and still function, they have plenty of input options and the price is right. Are they the most pristine for studio? No, but I do live sound and durability, consistency and versatility are what I desire. Mackies have never done me wrong, except for the failure once of a control ribbion on a 1604VLZ Pro (one of their flaws). 

Two things I notice that need to be shook off of this plan:
- This obsession with digital consoles. I personally don't find anything unusual about your setup that requires a digital console. Everything that you described can be done quickly and effectively with an analog console. Heck, I do nearly the same thing every week with two of my religious clients: One on an A&H Zed24 and the other on a Mackie 24.4.4 VLZ Pro. Both events go flawlessly and are easy to manage. Each board gives you plenty of aux sends for monitor and offboard processing routing and both are durable and easy to work on for anyone with the proper training. If you cannot mix a band of that size on an analog console, then you will do WORSE on a digital console. Digital consoles, while they have all the flashy bits and features, still have HORRENDOUS workflow compared to analog consoles. 

-Do you really need 7-8 mics for the drums? Again, we go back to what the size of the house is. On my worship groups, I run 3-5, usually 3. A pair of excellent overheads and a solid kick mic make all the difference in the world. If you are using one of those Guitar Center mic packs, you'd be surprised what a good quality set of mics can do to reduce the number of channels you need. Most my my traps run Shure SM81 overheads X/Y, Either a Beta58 or AKG D112 for kick (depending on which contract) and possibly a 57 on snare. Run a gate on the oveheads to keep the punch out of them and do NOT compress the hell out of the kick. Build the gain on it with plenty of headroom and if need be, lean on your preamps. I get plenty of clarity out of a 400-500 seat house and good isolation. If you are REALLY focused on isolation, get a lexan drum shield. You can trim that mic allotment in half and you can even run the monitor mix cooler to the drummer because they can actually hear themselves and not have to deal with bleed.


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## bishopthomas (Mar 29, 2013)

Your complaints are very vague and not necessarily indicative of a "failing" console. There could be any number of things contributing to this "huss" and just because you hate it doesn't really tell us anything. Sure, the preamps aren't the best in the world, but they're probably not the weakest link in your signal chain. Honestly, I feel like you have read online that Behringer preamps suck and now you have that in your mind. What do you mean by "really bad?" Describe what you don't like about them and what you would like to hear. Is it a certain frequency or range that you feel is being accentuated by the preamps? If so, what are those frequencies? Words like "harsh" and "brittle" are words you read on the internet. If you can't be specific in what you don't like how can you determine what you want to improve? You say "the more the better" in regards to aux outs. What are your plans for these other aux sends?

The reliability or StudioLive vs X32 is hard to say at this point. I haven't seen an X32 fail yet but I had to send in my 16.4.2 for a couple of minor repairs. I bought the Studiolive used and it's older than the Behringer so it's really not a fair comparison. Time will tell about the road worthiness of the X32 but I have a feeling we'll see a huge improvement over their other products.


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