# RGBA vs RGBW



## LavaASU (Dec 7, 2011)

I'm looking into buying some 3W LED pars to use as front light to replace some par56s. I have the choice between RGBA or RGBW. I've mainly worked with RGB units, so I'm not really familiar with the AW side enough to know which would be best for a stage wash. What's the consensus?


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## Pie4Weebl (Dec 7, 2011)

I feel like amber is an easier color to mix in with other colors than white...


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## DuckJordan (Dec 7, 2011)

What are you planning to light with these front light leds. Honestly I can see using any form of led for fronts... But that's just my opinion.

Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk


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## LavaASU (Dec 7, 2011)

DuckJordan said:


> What are you planning to light with these front light leds. Honestly I can see using any form of led for fronts... But that's just my opinion.
> 
> Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk


 
Anything from bands to speakers to choir concerts... they're supposed to replace a par56 rig (2 red, 2 blue, 1 n/c pink, 2 purple per side)... planning to put 2-4 LED pars per side. I'm getting 2 per side for now, and adding additionals (possibly AW units) in the future.


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## waynehoskins (Dec 8, 2011)

There are some white-mixing LEDs on the market; American DJ, I think, makes one. I haven't seen any of them in action, though there's a small church nearby that has them (I helped on their audio install). I don't know that I'd trust them for theatre fronts. Maybe rock-and-roll, where frontlight is less of a big thing.

The big problems are the multiple shadows and the narrow beam angles. Not to mention all I've seen aren't profile units.


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## DuckJordan (Dec 8, 2011)

LavaASU said:


> Anything from bands to speakers to choir concerts... they're supposed to replace a par56 rig (2 red, 2 blue, 1 n/c pink, 2 purple per side)... planning to put 2-4 LED pars per side. I'm getting 2 per side for now, and adding additionals (possibly AW units) in the future.


 

The red teh blue and the purple are going to be your easiest colors to match, just be ready for super saturated colors, with your N/C pink in mind I'd go with the amber, it will help warm up the pink to make it more of a N/C although it will be very difficult to get a decent N/C pink out of any LED.


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## soundlight (Dec 8, 2011)

RGBA because amber can help you get a better white, but a cold LED white cannot help you get a better saturated amber.


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## cbrandt (Dec 8, 2011)

For an actual stage wash, I'd stick with amber. As previously said, they'll let you warm up all your colors to match your incandescent fixtures and colors much more nicely.

That being said, on the rental side of things, I find whites to be WAY more useful. You can get a much more solid white out a fixture with a white led, and in general, it is always easy to warm up a color by adding some red.

If you can squeeze a little extra money out of your budget, take a look at the LUSTR+ units from ETC. They have 7 colors of LEDs. The color rendering from the new D40's and D60's is nothing short of phenomenal. Those units are a bit more expensive, though.


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## gafftapegreenia (Dec 8, 2011)

If you have the money go with the Chroma Q ColorForce, but that's just my opinion.

So, you have blue red and purple front light? Two cans of each? And only one can front light of N/C pink? How saturated are those reds, blues and purples? Are these the only lights in the space?


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## JD (Dec 8, 2011)

RGBA and here is why:

LED's are monochromatic devices that put out one frequency of light* and the three (R,G,B) frequencies they output for RGB are not in ideal locations of the spectrum. The color "pot-hole" is in the amber area, making a white balance hard to achieve. Having the amber LED output spike right in the middle of the dead area gives the fixtures a more pleasant and realistic apparent color balance. 

*= White LEDs are actually UV LED's with phosphate inside them that produces multiple outputs that we perceive as white light. Your phosphate choices are about the same as they are for CFLs and they are all weak in the amber area.

Our eyes only perceive three colors as well, and if the center frequencies of our eyes and the frequencies of the LED's were the same, we would not need the Amber one. The same problem exists in television displays and this is why at least one manufacturer is producing RGBA displays. (A is decoded from the RGB signal.)


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## LavaASU (Dec 8, 2011)

gafftapegreenia said:


> If you have the money go with the Chroma Q ColorForce, but that's just my opinion.
> 
> So, you have blue red and purple front light? Two cans of each? And only one can front light of N/C pink? How saturated are those reds, blues and purples? Are these the only lights in the space?



Definitely don't have the money for the Chroma Q...

You are correct on the current rig. Pretty saturated... I think red is R27, blues are R68 usually, and I don't remember purple. It changes a bit depending on what gels I have lying around (occasionally it becomes pink, amber, blue, red or such). Only wash/front light. We use LEDs for backlight/ uplight (backdrop/cyc depending on the gig)/ eye candy...


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## gafftapegreenia (Dec 8, 2011)

LavaASU said:


> Definitely don't have the money for the Chroma Q...
> 
> You are correct on the current rig. Pretty saturated... I think red is R27, blues are R68 usually, and I don't remember purple. It changes a bit depending on what gels I have lying around (occasionally it becomes pink, amber, blue, red or such). Only wash/front light. We use LEDs for backlight/ uplight (backdrop/cyc depending on the gig)/ eye candy...


 
Well I'd second the notion of using RGBA for the can's that are typically used as saturated colors and using AW for whatever can(s) you use as clear or N/C. Who's LED's are you currently using for back/up light? Do you like them, or wish they had more power? Consider how they function and then consider how LED's will function in a front light roll.


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## BillESC (Dec 8, 2011)

Why not opt for fixtures offering RGBAW.


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## JChenault (Dec 8, 2011)

JD said:


> RGBA and here is why:
> 
> LED's are monochromatic devices that put out one frequency of light* and the three (R,G,B) frequencies they output for RGB are not in ideal locations of the spectrum. The color "pot-hole" is in the amber area, making a white balance hard to achieve. Having the amber LED output spike right in the middle of the dead area gives the fixtures a more pleasant and realistic apparent color balance.
> 
> ...



Some minor quibbles.
An led does not produce a single frequency, but a narrow band of frequencies. (typically around 10nm)
Our eyes have cells that respond to colored light, but the response is not narrow. Ie the red and green receptors will both fire for some frequencies of light. The issue is not the frequency of the 
LED source, it is the narrowness of the frequencies output.


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## LavaASU (Dec 8, 2011)

BillESC said:


> Why not opt for fixtures offering RGBAW.


 
Budget unfortunately...


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## LavaASU (Dec 8, 2011)

gafftapegreenia said:


> Well I'd second the notion of using RGBA for the can's that are typically used as saturated colors and using AW for whatever can(s) you use as clear or N/C. Who's LED's are you currently using for back/up light? Do you like them, or wish they had more power? Consider how they function and then consider how LED's will function in a front light roll.


 
Backlight (when we do it) chauvet slimpars... not impressed with anything on these other than daisy chained power and small size.

Uplight Irradiant 1/2W battens... they work great for most shows, if needed (rarely... I think the only time we've desperately needed more power was when someone wanted up to uplight a 40' tall wall) we do a double row.


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## JD (Dec 8, 2011)

JChenault said:


> Some minor quibbles.
> An led does not produce a single frequency, but a narrow band of frequencies. (typically around 10nm)
> Our eyes have cells that respond to colored light, but the response is not narrow. Ie the red and green receptors will both fire for some frequencies of light. The issue is not the frequency of the
> LED source, it is the narrowness of the frequencies output.



Thus the "spike" chart for LED fixtures. In either case there is a hole in the A region. The other problem is on the human eye end. Eyes vary in what is perceived as R, G, or B due to genetic variation*. Wide flat spectrum light sources even when gelled are perceived with less variation then narrow band sources. This is why certain people do not find certain light sources or colors offensive, but others do. (Outside of the apathy factor.) 
The closer an LED fixture can be made to have a wide and even bandwidth, the better it will be perceived, even if this only involves adding a fourth spike.

The problem with white LED's is that the phosphate colors still lack the area of spectrum that the RGB LEDs do. 

*= Studies were done back in the 1960s to see the minimum perceived -color- light levels at various frequencies. The results had an interesting twist in that not only the levels change from person to person, but the center frequencies did as well. We now know that perceived color balance is different from person to person as well as race to race. In servicing video cameras, manufacturers have different alignment procedures for the Asian market then the US market. In specific, What looks white balanced to someone in Asia looks "cold" to us, and what looks balanced to us looks warm to them.
_Reference- Color perception variations were taught at both Hitachi Manufacturer Training as well as Sony Manufacturer Training that I attended._

There are also variations between the sexes: http://aris.ss.uci.edu/cogsci/personnel/kjameson/SexDiff.pdf

Hard to understand why we even see red:




Nice article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_vision

Nice data on what LED colors are available: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light-emitting_diode


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## Jawbone (Dec 10, 2011)

Either way, I would look at 4-1 shadowless fixtures for a better consistency in color. Otherwise you will need to apply a frost gel to your led fixtures.


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## Synchronize (Dec 10, 2011)

The way I usually explain it to people is, if you are looking for rich yellows, oranges, and ambers, (i.e. skin tones), then you want to go with the amber LEDs. The benifit of the white LED is that you can make pastels, and you can have true white light, which you can't do without the white LED.

I personally generally opt for the ambers because the RGB channels at 255 gets you pretty darn close to true white, and I like more saturated colors over pastels.


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## Kelite (Dec 13, 2011)

I have a tendency to also lean more towards mixing with amber to satisfy a variety of skin tones. Having said that, white included within the RGBA allows more control of the lumen output while still allowing the designer to play with the color mix. I posted this within a thread elsewhere, but in case you haven't seen these new LED fixtures-

Introducing the Multiform HP3-90 and HP5-70 LED units - YouTube


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## church (Dec 14, 2011)

I have LED wash fixtures and I regret buying RGBW instead of RGBA, Without the amber you are severley limited on the colours you can mix. The extra white allows you to slightly ple out a colour - but that is all. The ideal is RGBAW. The only question then becomes how many LEDs of each colour. My fixtures have forty eight 3W LEDs in each unit.


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## BillESC (Dec 14, 2011)

For the same cost of the Slim Pars you bought, you can get Blizzard's Puck RGBAW fixtures. Also a slim style par with feed through DMX and AC.

The Puck


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## Kelite (Dec 15, 2011)

Bill, the Puck draws about 10W of power?


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## bishopthomas (Dec 15, 2011)

The web site says there are 198 1/2 watt LED's...


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## soundlight (Dec 16, 2011)

bishopthomas said:


> The web site says there are 198 1/2 watt LED's...


 
The "1/2 watt" rating on those LEDs is a lie. 10mm LEDs are advertised as "1/2 watt" and 5mm as "1/4 watt". They don't come near that consumption.


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## Kelite (Dec 16, 2011)

You are correct Soundlight, the .5W rating is obviously a misprint, intentional or not. This small LED device is not a 100W luminaire...

The soon-to-be introduced Apollo Multiform 1310 produces 530 lumens using 307 x 5mm (60mW which is .06W) LEDs with a total power consumtion of 18W. Onboard electronics consume a small amount of power, so the 18W is not pure LED power.
The math looks like this: 307 x .06W = 18.42 Watts

(Thanks to Power Conversion )

Apollo Design | MultiSpot LS1310

Sorry for the inability to upload any pictures. 

Yoo hoo, Dave................


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## Bsancken (Jul 25, 2013)

*RGBW or RBGWA LEDs in a moving head fixture?*

This feels like my first post here and I have a question.


In a moving head wash fixture(led), what would be the importance in having amber LEDs in the fixture if it was a RGBW{A}?


Which fixture would you choose if they were identical except for one had red, green, blue, white and the other had red, green, blue, white, and amber. Is it worth the extra money to get the lights with amber LEDs in them?

-or- a simpler question what is your opinion on how important amber is in color mixing?

These would be used as a stage wash/spot light and possibly controlled by an ETC Ion.


Thanks!
Brent...


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## Pie4Weebl (Jul 25, 2013)

*Re: RGBW or RBGWA LEDs in a moving head fixture?*

Brent, I think it is a bit of a toss up for you, and it also depends on how saturated the Amber is. For instance, I just finished a tour where I had Color Blast TRXs which offer both white and amber, I would use them to make saturated colors paler. If I wanted it to be a cooler color I would lower saturation with the white, if I wanted a warmer color I would use the amber. I never found myself using either alone, only in addition to other mixed colors. 

My gut instinct would be, if you use them for concerts go with just the white, if you do dance/theatre mostly add in the Amber, or get a fixture with amber instead of white. But the best way for you to be able to tell if by demoing two lights next to each other and seeing if having the extra Amber lets you make colors you couldn't without.


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## derekleffew (Jul 25, 2013)

*Re: RGBW or RBGWA LEDs in a moving head fixture?*


Pie4Weebl said:


> ... But the best way for you to be able to tell if by demoing two lights next to each other and seeing if having the extra Amber lets you make colors you couldn't without.


This. Of course the best way to hedge your bets is to use RGBAW, but as you've found, this comes at a cost of both purchasing and programming the fixtures.

For more, see the article "Color control of LED luminaires" by Robert Bell beginning on page 28 of Protocol - Summer 2013 digital edition .


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## Bsancken (Jul 28, 2013)

*Re: RGBW or RBGWA LEDs in a moving head fixture?*

Thanks another question:
Best bet between these 2 fixtures?
------------------------
Chauvet Q-Wash 560Z-LED:
DMX channels: 12, 14, or 15
• Operating Modes:
12-Channel Basic Mode - pan, tilt, red, green, blue, white, amber, color macro, dimmer, strobe, zoom and control
14-Channel G1 Mode - pan, fine pan, tilt, fine tilt, pan/tilt speed, red, green, blue, white, color macro, dimmer, strobe, zoom, and control
15-Channel Advanced Mode - pan, fine pan, tilt, fine tilt, pan/tilt speed, red, green, blue, white, amber, color macro, dimmer, strobe, zoom and control
• 6° - 37° zoom
• RGBWA LEDs ********note the RGBWA******
• RGBWA color mixing 
• Electronic shutter
• Electronic dimmer
• All functions reset over DMX
• Move in Black over DMX or on display
• Color Macros with speed adjustment
• IP rating: IP20, dry location
• Lightweight and easy to install
• User-selectable pan/tilt ranges
• Automatic pan/tilt correction



--------------------------
Or 
Chauvet Q-Wash 436Z-LED

• DMX channels: 8, 10, 16, 29 
• Operating modes 
8-channel: Pan, Tilt, HSV, Strobe, Zoom, Control
10-channel: Pan, Tilt, RGBW, Dimmer, Strobe, Zoom, Control
16-channel: Pan, Pan Fine, Tilt, Tilt Fine, Pan/Tilt Speed, RGBW, Macro, Auto Rings, Auto Speed, Dimmer, Strobe, Zoom, Control
29-channel: Pan, Pan Fine, Tilt, Tilt Fine, Pan/Tilt Speed, Dimmer, Strobe, Zoom, Control, R1, G1, B1, W1, R2, G2, B2, W2, R3, G3, B3, W3, R4, G4, B4, W4, R5, G5, B5, W5
• Quad-colored RGBW LEDs with brilliant color mixing ********note the RGBW******
• Smooth zoom and dimming
• Fast, quiet movement
• Five zones of control



Best bet if used in pairs, programmed and controlled with an ion?...
Medium sized stage used for concerts and dance competition.

Thanks!!
(btw im not sure how large the images in the image code is gonna be so Sorry! if its too big! :/)


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## techieman33 (Jul 29, 2013)

*Re: RGBW or RBGWA LEDs in a moving head fixture?*

I would chose the latter. It should be brighter, the audience won't see all the different LED colors and you won't have the multiple color shadow problems. The first fixture might give you a slightly better white, but it's still going to suck compared to a tungsten source, and you won't be using much white anyway lighting concerts and dance.


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## Bsancken (Jul 29, 2013)

*Re: RGBW or RBGWA LEDs in a moving head fixture?*

Okay so Then in the category of RGBW fixtures:

Rayzor Q12 - Elation Lighting

FEATURES
Pan: 540° / 630°/ 540° - 90° Offset
Tilt: 270° / 240°
High Speed Adjustable 16-Bit Resolution Movement
6 Zone Chase Effects
8 Auto Program Chase Macros
6 Button Touch Control Panel
Omega Bracket Mounting (2x 107mm)
Flicker Free Operation for TV and Film
Full Color 180° Reversible Menu Display
Microphone for Sound Activated Programs
Rechargeable Backup Battery for Menu Display
Stand Alone Operation with Master/Slave Function
Software Upload via Optional External DMX Accessary

SOURCE
(12) 15W RGBW QUAD COLOR LED ******* 15W
100,000 Hours Average Life

PHOTOMETRICS
Max 5,840 LUX @5M
7° to 14° Field Angle Range

EFFECTS
Color Mixing
Rainbow Effect
Dimming: 0% - 100% + Blackout for All Four Colors
Strobe: 1 – 18 Flashes Per Second
Pulse Effect

CONTROL / CONNECTIONS
3 DMX Channel Modes (15/17/37)
5pin DMX In/Out
powerCON Power In/Out

SIZE / WEIGHT
Length: 11.7” (295.5mm)
Width: 8.5” (214mm)
Vertical Height: 15.7” (397mm)
Weight: 22 lbs. (10kg) 

$2199.99 USD 

-------------
VS.
-------------
The one listed last in my previous post. ^^^

Chauvet Q-Wash 436Z-LED

$2,939.99 USD 

==============================

Is it worth the extra money for the Chauvet fixture or is it only marginally better from just looking at the specs?... Im mainly looking for opinions to help determine the fixtures I will buy. Thanks!


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## Pie4Weebl (Jul 30, 2013)

*Re: RGBW or RBGWA LEDs in a moving head fixture?*

The elation fixture is a gag fixture, all it does is a very narrow beam of light, its good at what it does, but that is all it does.


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