# Oh my....



## gafftapegreenia (Aug 6, 2007)

So, somehow I randomly came across this quote on the website of a lighting company in Australia.

"Bear in mind that old theatre lights are very close in performance to new ones and that, in lighting, quantity is more important that quality, so if the choice is to recondition 10 old lights or buy one new one, then the choice is clear."

Umm, other than the part about choosing to recondition 10 over buying one new, I find this quote rather odd. Old lights are definatly not close in performance to new lights, and to say that quantity is more important than quality.......I might have to go look at the Selecon website to feel better.


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## Footer (Aug 6, 2007)

Personally I would rather have 60 fixture that throw light out one end then 20 or 30 source fours. Yes older fixtures are a pain to keep up and running but sometimes it is simply a numbers game. A properly working altman 360 (old brown things) actually puts out a pretty decent quality of light. It lacks the punch and the color temperature of a S4, but it still gets the job done. Basicly what they are trying to say is if you have a choice to buy 50 new source fours or recondition/clean/re-lamp/new sockets for your 30 year old collection of 200 360s, do the 360s. The old 6x9 is still a great fixture. Newer lights can get more out of a lower wattage lamp, but if you got the power its not really an issue. Right now with the show I am working on we have 300 S4s, 16 PC beams, 12 VL3ks, 40 cxi, 30 forerunners, and we still have up 10 to 15 6x22, 20 6x9's, and a ton of old XRAY strips with 4 color rondels. Just because its old doesnt mean that it still isnt usefull. It might be a pain to focus and maintain, but if it still works its better then nothing.


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## gafftapegreenia (Aug 6, 2007)

Footer, while I understand and believe the point you are making (indeed I have made it myself on several occassions), the message they are sending here does not readily convey that sentiment. Sure, we understand the point they are trying to make, but to the average buyer or person in charge of the money, the point would be, IMHO, lost in translation. As I see it, they oversimplified the message, which has made it unclear. It has been said many times that magic can be made with crappy 6x9's, and Nnew S4's can be made to look like crap. Just because someone has a large quantity of 6x9's doesn't mean their designs will be better than someone with only a few Source 4's.


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## Logos (Aug 6, 2007)

I'd love to know what website that was on so I never do business with them. In a way I agree but it was so badly phrased. I have some very old PC lanterns I use for gobo's. I wouldn't give them up because I can use them for say a breakup wash get a beautiful clear effect and use my newer more versatile lanterns for the jobs they are best at. I pick up a lot of old mistreated gear and repair it. I then tend to use it to do installs in small spaces that don't use their lights much. It means I can do a really cheap but useful rig for them which I will them maintain. In that situation it's probably better for me to put in 12 carefully restored CCT Minuettes than 4 Selecon Acclaims because that is all the client can afford. In a way that is probably what they are talking about.


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## Footer (Aug 6, 2007)

Ok, before we all freak out, how about we all look at this in its proper context. I know we are in the age of taking a quote and running with it, but I would hope that we can do a bit better then fox news. 

http://www.allthingstheatre.net.au/intro.htm

Thats is where the quote came from. If you look at their site you can see that they are in the business of rehabbing old theatres, every piece of gear included. They are selling labor, and to sell labor you have to have something to labor on. It is in their best interest to tell people that they can get just about the same amount of quality out of that old 6x9 as a new 36 deg. From the looks of it they are selling a great service for theatres and schools that have a decent space that has simply fallen into disrepair. Instead of contractors walking in and saying throw it all in a landfill and gut the place, these contractors walk in, say yes we can work with this, fix everything, get everything back up to code and get you back to near new. There are thousands of schools out there that could use this service and spend 5 to 10 grand then spending 150 grand to get the same thing they already had, but it just was not working to its full potential. 

Before we all jump off the deep end and say that this place is the devil and we should never do business with them, lets take a step back and really look at where that quote came from.

Edit: Actually after further reading I would hands down love to work with this company. I hope there is a service like this in the states. This is right up this forums alley. Basically they specialize in helping out school theatre dept. They are available anytime for anything you need. It looks like a pretty amazing service.


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## SteveB (Aug 6, 2007)

Footer4321 said:


> A properly working altman 360 (old brown things) actually puts out a pretty decent quality of light. It lacks the punch and the color temperature of a S4, but it still gets the job done. .



I can think of quite a few scenarios where this is not true, one being an LD/SM of a medium sized dance company on tour using a house rig of hundreds of 360Q's, whose color temp is so different then the S4's used in nearly every other house the event plays, that MAJOR changes in color choice and possibly in intensities must be made, as well as a whole lot of futile explaining to the artistic director as to why the show looks like crap. Not too mention "we can't use the rotators", or "I know the gobo's don't look as crisp". 

Been there, done that, no thanks. I'll take the new gear any day.

FWIW, the OP was quoted as "10 year old lights", which might very well simply be the first gen. S4's !.

On a similar topic, I was explaining color filters and choices to 2 of our newbie stagehands today, one of whom asked me how come I don't use GAM Color or Apollo color that much. I proceed to explain how my eye and brain can readily visualize what Roscolux and Lee filters look like when used in a lighting fixture, as opposed to viewed in the swatch book, but that I have trouble with the Apollo and GAM, due to the "newness: of the filter line. 

Similarly, how the designer Tharon Musser (Chorus Line, Little Night Music, Dreamgirls, Ballroom, 42st., etc...) essentially made the choice to retire from the industry when she realized (among other issues) that she could no longer visualize the color using the newer S4's and the like, having had a difficult time enough with the transition to quartz lamps from pure incandescents. 

SB


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## Footer (Aug 6, 2007)

SteveB said:


> I can think of quite a few scenarios where this is not true, one being an LD/SM of a medium sized dance company on tour using a house rig of hundreds of 360Q's, whose color temp is so different then the S4's used in nearly every other house the event plays, that MAJOR changes in color choice and possibly in intensities must be made, as well as a whole lot of futile explaining to the artistic director as to why the show looks like crap. Not too mention "we can't use the rotators", or "I know the gobo's don't look as crisp".



In that situation, yes, having uniform lights in each venue is a must, and totally agree with you. I have traveled with plots designed for s4's and gone to places without and wanted to kill myself when chasing inhibitive subs the entire night. On the other hand, for a theatre that does one show in one space and that one light will never do anything else and you can make the intesity changess or put in the color correction needed, then your no worse off. For image projection, older fixtures really do suck, they simply do not have the optics for it. For a front wash, side, traditional systems, the older fixtures will do what you need them to. Once again, if its the choice between 40 fixtures s4's or 200 360's or 360q's (well maintained), im going to take the numbers before the quality.


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## Logos (Aug 7, 2007)

I just looked at the website and yeah. I was completely wrong, I would like to work with them. I do exactly the same thing on a much smaller scale. I will be getting in touch with them, I am intrigued by their statement that they have spares for many older lights. I have a number of shells that need only one or two items and some rewiring to become usful lights again.


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## gafftapegreenia (Aug 7, 2007)

I should have taken a closer look at their website. They seem like a pretty cool company. I wonder if such a thing could work here in the States, anyone want to try?

However, the wording of that statement still scares me.


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## Bean (Sep 30, 2007)

Its interesting that no one has managed, (as far as we know) to contact us yet.
I'm Sean, as you may have seen from the site.
And even though this statement is true for most of our school audience, how would you like it said, as to not to "still scares me."?


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## gafftapegreenia (Sep 30, 2007)

First, let me say, welcome to the Booth, we're a interesting and interested group of people. 

My feelings on this statement were that it was easily misunderstood. A school board and similar group of individuals would likely use this to support the idea that the theatre(s) under their authority are just fine with the equipment they have and there is no need to put money into updating the program. I find this mainly in the "qauntity over quality" statement. Those who know little about lighting would likely rather spend money to keep buying lamps for 2K fresnels than update them to use more efficient lamps or buy new instruments that would save money on gel, lamps and power in the long run. If they get stuck an idea like this it can become very hard to convince otherwise.


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## David Ashton (Sep 30, 2007)

I have just come across this thread on "google" which I was not aware of and I would like a right of reply.The comments I made must be read in the context of my customer base which is schools and amateur dramatic groups.In a school situation I generally try to give them a basic rig to cover 4 areas with a key light a fill light and a back light in warm and cold, 4 specials and some cyc lights, seldom is there budget for any thing bigger than this.As the drama room height is between 9-14 ft the only practical luminere is the fresnel and my comment about old lights being as good as new is fairly accurate when talking about fresnels.Now I need 30+ lights to do this rig and typically there will be 10-20 in the drama room and a dozen or so in the store room in various states of disrepair.The function of a school is to teach the kids the basics of lighting and to this end a full rig of old lights is much more useful than half a rig of new lights.So my "business plan" is to get a full rig to show them how it can work and then replace the older lights over time.Showing a client a working rig while explaining how we can upgrade it is much easier than trying to explain the theoretical benefits of buying a new rig.As to dance it is never possible in our schools to have a permanent side lit dance rig as the rooms are multi use and lighting ladders would be destroyed, so the dancers only get good lighting at their concert.As I only use profiles for the odd drama special, a dekkle wash or gobo projection I can't justify spending on the excellent new range of profiles on the market until the rest of the rig is up to standard.Now the nature of a website is that you need to get your message over to your client, who is probably not even basically technical, in a concise way and that is why we simplified the message as we did. I hope this clarifies some of the issues raised in this thread.


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## gafftaper (Sep 30, 2007)

charcoaldabs said:


> Here here!
> ADJ opti-pars all around!
> <Gaff, I'm still pushing for your blackbox to be ADJ sponsored!>
> I know I've been discussing fall arrest a lot lately, does anyone know if there is any ADJ branded self retracting lifelines on the market?



ADJ fall arrest... Charc I know it's Saturday night but drinking is illegal for 16 year olds. It's also not good for you to get so wasted you think ADJ fall arrest is a good idea. Now go lay down and sleep it off. 

P.S. Forget ADJ... I'm going with all Chinese knock off gear from E-bay.


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## gafftaper (Sep 30, 2007)

Bean said:


> Its interesting that no one has managed, (as far as we know) to contact us yet.
> I'm Sean, as you may have seen from the site.
> And even though this statement is true for most of our school audience, how would you like it said, as to not to "still scares me."?



Trying to be nice here because this is your first post, but I'm really confused. First, who are you? The "All Things Theater" website says that they are a two person company and that the names of those people are Robyn and David. You said your name is Sean, "as you may have seen from the site". I don't find the name Sean anywhere on that site. 

Secondly, Why is it interesting that no one has contacted you? Most of us live on the other side of the world so hiring you would be insane. Also most of the people around here know how to make minor repairs and bench focus an instrument and so we wouldn't need your company in the first place. True there are a few Aussies here but only one has responded to this thread. I also know you've got a pretty large continent down there, so it's extremely unlikely that you'll find a potential customer close enough to use your services here. 

Third, I think you are asking, why do some people have a such a problem with the idea that refurbishing is better than replacing and that there isn't much difference between old and new instruments. You've read the debate on that already. A solid case has been made that spending money on old lighting is an energy foolish choice, the color temperature and quality of light is NOT the same, and (a new point I want to throw out) one could argue that you are short changing students by training them on out of date equipment. The idea that quantity is more important than quality is the one I disagree with the most. A little bad light and a lot of bad light is still bad light. You must see why some people have a legitimate reason to disagree with you. 

Finally, I question the basic premise that your company will refurbish 10 instruments for the cost of one new instrument. I'm not sure about prices in Oz, but in the US I can get a new Source Four for about $300 I have a hard time believing anyone here would come in and remove, clean, make minor repairs, bench focus, and rehang 10 old instruments for $300. 

Again, I'm not trying to start a flame war here but what were you expecting?


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## derekleffew (Sep 30, 2007)

SteveB said:


> Similarly, how the designer Tharon Musser (Chorus Line, Little Night Music, Dreamgirls, Ballroom, 42st., etc...) essentially made the choice to retire from the industry when she realized (among other issues) that she could no longer visualize the color using the newer S4's and the like, having had a difficult time enough with the transition to quartz lamps from pure incandescents.
> 
> SB



Have you read David Barbour's article "Thinking about Tharon" in the Sept. 2007 issue of _Lighting and Sound America_? I hope she is comfortable in her current condition. My thoughts and prayers are with her and Marilyn.

Another Broadway lighting designer echoed the same sentiment regarding the SourceFour at the Broadway Lighting Masters Class I attended in 1996. Wish I could remember who it was.


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## derekleffew (Sep 30, 2007)

Footer4321 said:


> ...Just because its old doesnt mean that it still isnt usefull. ...


I resemble that remark!


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## derekleffew (Sep 30, 2007)

gafftapegreenia said:


> I should have taken a closer look at their website. They seem like a pretty cool company. I wonder if such a thing could work here in the States, anyone want to try?...



I know of a company that refurbishes and distributes MicroStar/AppleStar Apple IIe's to community theatres as an affordable memory lighting control system. Does that count?

Fixtures are a slightly different matter. Time and Materials for refurbishment cost money. Time generally costs more than materials, but still. A careful ROE is required. Sometimes the bean counters will let you buy new stuff, but won't pay to fix the old. But most High Schools and Colleges have nothing but free labor and proper bench-focussing only costs the electricity to light the lamp for 10 minutes/unit maximum. A gallon of distilled water costs what, 97¢? And that lamp inside had better be the one that ship recommends for your application. New lamps have to be purchased at some point anyway, so stop buying FELs. Unless they're what Ship told you to use!


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## derekleffew (Sep 30, 2007)

gafftaper said:


> P.S. Forget ADJ... I'm going with all Chinese knock off gear from E-bay.



I apologize in advance for "drifting the thread." But Gafftaper started it. Mommy, he's looking out my window...

Would you rather purchase:

(1) Coemar ParLite LED for $1375 (Map price, is that MSRP?) http://www.mylpr.com/coemar/parlite.htm

OR

(4) Chauvet COLORSplash 200B http://www.chauvetlighting.com/fixtures/ledpar200_fix.shtml at $300?/each BillESC please correct my pricing, I just guessed and am probably way off.

OR

(12) of these. http://www.solarisnetwork.com/item_2765 at $109/each? Hey, I got ripped off by ebay, I paid $131 for mine! Oh, there's a minimum order of 10, so they can't boat them across the Pacific one at a time.


_Would someone who knows more than I please make a poll and start a new thread? Then this post can be deleted._


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## David Ashton (Sep 30, 2007)

Returning to Gafftaper, 
1 we are All Things Theatre, not Theater
2 Sean is mentioned on the site under "want to do a rock musical"
3 as you were discussing and criticizing us it might have been polite to drop us an email to explain our position.
4 if can explain how to light my 4 areas in 2 colours with 12 nice new source 4 I would like to know how you do that, in my opinion the concepts of key, fill and back lighting is infinitely more important than some slight imperfections of striation or a 10% less efficient instrument.The principals of lamp adjustment and focus are essentially unchanged over the last 50 years.
The colour temperature of all my lights new and old is 3200 so I don't see point of that comment, I'm not using par38's
Finally your opinion that refurbishing is better than new is a very corporate idea, any one of my state school clients would need 15 years to buy a full rig of lights on their available budget and by that time it would be out of date again.
To return to my original point; using a quote of mine which is directed to a specific low budget market and using it in reference to a corporate budget situation is unfair and misleading. 
Sorry I forgot to state that refurbishing 10 lights for under $400, which is less than the cost of a source 4 is easy and which we do on a monthly basis, our cost structure is different to yours as our lights are imported and are more expensive.


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## derekleffew (Sep 30, 2007)

Okay, allthingstheatre, I'll play your game. Please state, in Australian currency is fine, the street price for each of the fixtures below. Brand new-in-box, no connector or lamp requested, no other accessories; but delivery to your venue included. Preferably shipping is called out separately.

Selecon Pacific 50 Fixed Beam
Altman 360Q 4.5x6.5
ETC Source4-50° 450
Colortran LEO LEL50
ADB WARB 800W 2250
Strand SL Coolbeam 50
Any other luminaire of you choosing, that meets the following specifications: 50° Field Angle, 4 Framing shutters, pattern slot, focusable for hard or soft edge, more than one wattage lamp readily available, adjustable lamp alignment, ERS-type beam distribution.


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## derekleffew (Sep 30, 2007)

Bean said:


> Its interesting that no one has managed, (as far as we know) to contact us yet.
> I'm Sean, as you may have seen from the site.
> And even though this statement is true for most of our school audience, how would you like it said, as to not to "still scares me."?



No one here is personally attacking you or your site or your company. I'm sure _everyone_ has the best of intentions. Here is the sentence from the site I feel to which _most_ of us here are objecting (Howz that for awkward sentence structure? (Van, call your mother!)):

Bear in mind that old theatre lights are very close in performance to new ones and that, in lighting, quantity is more important that quality,so if the choice is to recondition 10 old lights or buy one new one, then the choice is clear. 

Change "very close" to adequate or acceptable.

Don't state "the choice is clear," when, apparently, in the opinions expressed here, the choice is opaque.

"quanity is more important that[sic] quality." Just add "often" after "is". Also, "that" should be "than", so an edit is required unless you want the website viewers to think you don't know grammar.
 
Sorry for the multi-coloredness. But seemed to be the easiest way. Perhaps _all_ of us simply misconstrued the intent of the statement. Be that as it may, the fault lies still with the original author. A rewrite is requested. Steveterry, as a manufacturer's representative, and BillESC, as a vendor of NEW lighting fixtures, please jump in here. 

And thanks to gafftapegreenia for starting such a lively thread! DvsDave, is this a record for most posts in shortest time for any thread? Not by me, by everyone? Response is amazing when members of ControlBooth get riled.


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## David Ashton (Sep 30, 2007)

SELECON $760[2005]
ETC $615[2004]
Any other make would have to be sourced overseas as far as I know, Perth is 4000 kms from Sydney so even road freight is not cheap, so freight is included as we are effectively subsidized by an Australia wide rate.


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## David Ashton (Sep 30, 2007)

I'm puzzled, where in the website does it say"quanity is more important that quality?I'll look again but I can't see it.


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## derekleffew (Sep 30, 2007)

allthingstheatre said:


> Returning to Gafftaper,
> 
> Sorry I forgot to state that refurbishing 10 lights for under $400, which is less than the cost of a source 4 is easy and which we do on a monthly basis, our cost structure is different to yours as our lights are imported and are more expensive.



The price listed on the ProShop PriceList for the Martin miniMAC Profile Black is $2499AUS. Using current exchange rates this is $2212.58USD. So do you have a special deal with Denmark whereby you pay the same in AUS as we do in US? Is it only US-manufactured equipment that is more expensive for you?

Sorry, Sean, if I've come across as overly-harsh, I just discovered you are 14. But you are old enough to learn you must be able to defend statements made in "public." Or not make them. Have a good day, or evening, or whatever time it is there.


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## David Ashton (Sep 30, 2007)

We have further confusion here, Sean did not post the reply to gaffertaper, it was me David and where does the cost of a Martin minimac enter the picture?


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## derekleffew (Sep 30, 2007)

allthingstheatre said:


> I'm puzzled, where in the website does it say"quanity is more important that quality?I'll look again but I can't see it.


 I copied the light blue/teal/aqua text from http://www.allthingstheatre.net.au/repair.htm and pasted it here.


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## David Ashton (Sep 30, 2007)

The link you gave does not give that result and I have not edited it and have to admit I don't know how to, computers are not my strong point, so how you got that result is a complete mystery as I am pedantic about getting grammar correct.However I was focused on quanity and was incorrect about 'that' So on that one point you were correct.


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## derekleffew (Sep 30, 2007)

allthingstheatre said:


> We have further confusion here, Sean did not post the reply to gaffertaper, it was me David and where does the cost of a Martin minimac enter the picture?



Sorry, I certainly added to the confusion. Please allow me to clarify:
David=allthingstheatre
Sean=Bean

David is an owner (with Robyn, please don't let her post here for a bit), and Sean is a 14 year-old employee. Can he legally be an employee at the age of 14 in AUS?

As to the miniMAC, it was the only item I found on the ProStage list, linked from your site, that I could guess the approx. US price of. One of you, and I'm now positive it was David=allthingstheatre, stated
our cost structure is different to yours as our lights are imported and are more expensive.
I wanted to dispute your statement above. And below, you did it for me.
SELECON $760[2005]
ETC $615[2004]
Any other make would have to be sourced overseas as far as I know, Perth is 4000 kms from Sydney so even road freight is not cheap, so freight is included as we are effectively subsidized by an Australia wide rate. 
Are ETC fixtures from Middleton, WI, USA really less expensive for you than Selecon fixtures from New Zealand? Is there an Australian manufacturer who assembles _anywhere_ in your country? I just realized you were trying to make the point, I think, that _all_ instruments are more expensive in AUS, not a foreign vs. domestic price differential. [Okay, CB veterans, under my text entry window in yellow is "You have selected 1 post that is not part of this thread. Quote this post as well, or deselect this post." I'm going to ignore that, as I don't understand it, and thanks again to gafftapegreenia, it's 8:31am and I've been awake AND MOSTLY ON THIS ONE THREAD since 6:30pm].

I think Gafftaper was overly harsh to you regarding whether you could refurb 10 units for the price of one new, particularly in light (NPI) of the fact that SourceFours are $615AUS. I didn't see where you claimed to come in, de-install, clean and bench-focus, and re-install 10 units for less than $615AUS. 

If I ran an educational facility, and didn't have the skills/knowledge I possess, I'd pay a "consultant" company up to $500US to conduct a one-day seminar to teach ten of my brightest (again, NPI) students how to disassemble, clean, reassemble, and bench focus 10 of my fixtures. Lights would be pre-mounted on the head-high first electric prior to your arrival. And that's where you would bench focus them onto the cyc, after cleaning. And I'd make sure you had a representation of every light in the building. You'd leave after eight hours, having provided valuable knowledge and experience to my students and bettered my facility. Gafftaper, gaffgreenia, and I will start such a company, and the facility will charge the students' parents $75/each which includes a fast-food lunch, and call it "Lighting Day Band Camp-Are you the First Chair Leko Player" (thanks to whoever's sig that it, best laugh I've had recently.) Only problem is, it can't be held in Seattle, Milwaukee, or Las Vegas, so travel expenses are an issue. But it would have worked at my high school in Ohio. What do you think, everyone? We're looking for "partners," we'll pay $500US/day, no travel pay, plus per diem, first class airfare, and SRO hotel, charged to the facility. For an additional fee and day-rate, we can provide an AppleStar IIe memory control console and instruction, and Ship will provide a Specifications List for your next lamp order, and BillESC will provide a quote on NEW fixtures, including energy-efficient LEDs. See what you started, gafftapegreenia? Van, want to join us?, I'm sure there's place for you in our ever-expanding organization. Apologies to all I've not called by name, Charc et al, no dis-respect intended.


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## Bean (Sep 30, 2007)

Sorry, I've not been near a computer since I posted, as I didn't anticipate such rapid responses.
First with the contacting part, at least one person said that they

Logos said:


> I will be getting in touch with them,


but never did, just a matter of curiosity really, 
And I will edit that "that" mistake on the webpage, but until David decides on whether to change the wording of that statement, it won't change.
And you miss quoted the site with

derekleffew said:


> "*quanity* is more important that[sic] quality."


the site says "quantity is more important that quality"
Just to be pedantic.
Any other questions?

Edit: David is the husband/father, Robyn is the wife/mother and I, Sean, the son.


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## Timmyp (Sep 30, 2007)

I don't mean to be insulting Sean, but how is a 14 year old a moving light 'specialist'?

I'm 17, and have been student lighting technician at my school since I was 12, lighting a friend's band for two years, and doing Am-dram shows since I was 14.

In the past three years, I have come in contact with moving lights about once or twice a week. By 'in contact' I mean, operating, programming, and making minor repairs. There is no way I would call myself a 'specialist', and there is no way that a professional would call you a 'specialist'.

Maybe you are ridiculously good at what you do, and I'm completely wrong, but I think it's rather mis-leading to be advertising as a 'specialist'.


I've been designing 10-15 shows a year for the past 4-5 years, there is no way I'm a Lighting Designer. Ok, when my school puts on shows, and I design for the Am-dram groups I am listed as Lighting Designer in the programme. But that doesn't make me a Lighting Designer. 

Also, how do you manage to be a moving light 'specialist' and help out all these schools like you supposedly do while keeping your education going?


Hope I haven't come across too harsh!

Timmy P


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## Pie4Weebl (Sep 30, 2007)

wow this thread exploded out of nowhere.

my 2 cents (US) on the matter.

The service they offer is a good one, and whether or not the people on the board here would want to use it is not worth arguing because the fact that they are staying in business shows that the idea can stand on its own and thats all the really counts. Looking at the service it has great potential. Larger theatres have tons of old partially working inventory which isn't working and if they donate it over to a smaller group or school who can only afford $500 it affords them far more flexibility.

Something else which has bothered me in this thread is the immaturity some members have show in discussion. The discussion should stay on topic, bringing up the fact that one of the members of the company is only 14 is aside from the point and suggesting that he might be too young to work is just down right condescending, along with making the "holier than thou, how dare you call yourself a specialist" comments. You guys are going way to far and making this whole debate way to personal.


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## soundlight (Sep 30, 2007)

Pie4Weebl said:


> Something else which has bothered me in this thread is the immaturity some members have show in discussion. The discussion should stay on topic, bringing up the fact that one of the members of the company is only 14 is aside from the point and suggesting that he might be too young to work is just down right condescending, along with making the "holier than thou, how dare you call yourself a specialist" comments. You guys are going way to far and making this whole debate way to personal.



I wasn't going to say anything, but I will now - my thoughts exactly, Pie4Weebl.


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## avkid (Sep 30, 2007)

Specialist (plural specialists)
1. someone who is an expert in, *or devoted to*, some specific branch of study or research

We could all be specialists if we only did one thing.


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## gafftaper (Sep 30, 2007)

Well haven't we been busy this morning. 

-First I hope nothing I've said has been taken personally, I was confused about Bean's first post there and what his expectations where. Now that I know you're 14 it makes more sense... I've got close to 20 years of experience working with teens in both professional and volunteer situations. Had I known you were a young guy I would have been a little more delicate with my response. I think it's great that this is a family business and it's cool that your parents have you so involved. 

-David you made some great points. It sound like there are large differences in the funding for the arts in schools Oz vs. the US. Some schools here have huge theater programs with equipment that would rival many large professional theaters. It sounds like even some of the smaller schools are better equipped than your typical customer. I used to teach in one of the poorest high schools in the state. About 60% of our students were on welfare. I had a budget of about $600 a year to run my entire theater program with. I had a 100 seat small theater and a 1000 seat larger theater both about 40 years old. I had about 100 dimmers in the big theater and 40 in the little one that were installed in the late 80's. My inventory included about 24 Altman 360 6x9's, and about 24 6" fresnels. It was probably a fairly typical U.S. school when I got there. However, there is grant money here that clearly isn't available over there. In four years there I was able to purchase 2 dozen new source fours, remodel my small theater's stage, a new ETC express console, all new curtains for two theaters, new audio gear, and I did about 6 shows bringing in outside directors... all on a combination of nearly $250,000 of federal, state, and local grants in 4 years. While I was lucky in a lot of the things I was able to purchase in that 4 years, it was not particularly unusual to get big grants like that. It sounds like that kind of equipment would be unusual in Oz. 

-You clarified that most of your customers are using Fresnels. I would have to agree with you that there haven't been a LOT of improvements in Fresnel technology. We tend to be much more ellipsoidal focused here in the states and the difference between an old Strand or Altman fixture and a new Source Four is substantial. I think most of us commenting on refurbishing vs. purchasing were thinking about ellipsoidals. So that's our mistake in not understanding the difference in lighting styles between countries. 

-Finally, my comment about if you can really service 10 instruments for the cost of one new one. Again, that's my ellipsoidal bias. If you are talking about fresnels then I totally see how that can be done. I was thinking about old Strand or Altman ellipsoidals that have bent and beat up shutters, broken knobs, dirty reflectors, dirty lenses, and need to be bench focused. We are easily talking about 30-60 minutes per instrument to take them down, service them, and put them back up. With a Fresnel it's mostly just clean up and check that the plugs are safe... a MUCH quicker process.

Anyway, I apologize if my words were too strong. I would never want to discourage Bean's work in the business. Now with a better understanding of where your school system is at and what they use, your business makes a lot more sense.


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## avkid (Sep 30, 2007)

Oh gawd!
a Bose PA


run away, far, far away!!!!


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## soundlight (Sep 30, 2007)

avkid said:


> Oh gawd!
> a Bose PA
> 
> 
> run away, far, far away!!!!



That's one thing that I can agree with...no highs, no lows, must be Bose.

Oh, and what's with needing that external proprietary signal processor?


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## avkid (Sep 30, 2007)

soundlight said:


> That's one thing that I can agree with...no highs, no lows, must be Bose.


B uy
O ther
S ound
E quipment


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## icewolf08 (Sep 30, 2007)

Ok, really pissed, because everything that I just was typing magically disappeared. Anyway, now I will try to re-write it, as it was important.

Going back to the original quote of dispute in this thread, quantity over quality. In some instances this is a very true statement. Look at elementary through highschool theatre. It really is all about the students who call themselves actors. It doesn't matter how brilliant a lighting design you might have come up with, when the parents come in and they can't see their kid's face they get pissed. They give nothing but bad comments if they can't see their kid.

As for the refurb business, it sounds like a great idea. There are plent of facilities, especially in the academic world in the US that could totally benefit from this. So Derek, when you start the company you talked about, count me in.

Gaff, it is amazing and lucky for you that you were able to get government grants for the arts. The US allocates one of the lowest percentages of taxpayer dollars to the arts compared to the rest of the world. Las time I heard it was less than 1% of US tax money that got put into the arts where there are some countries that give upwards of 5% to the arts. So, I don't think you should assume that we are better off than other countries in terms of money available for the arts.

I thought I had one more point I was going to make before my entry got gone, but I can't remember now. I'll post it if I do.


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## gafftapegreenia (Sep 30, 2007)

Well this has turned in quite a thread. Allow me to some up my feelings-

There have been a number of great points made about the intended meaning of the original statement in question versus its percieved meaning. We have all agreed about the usefullness of such a company, and debated the situations in which the offerings of such a company could be useful. Why did this thread happen? Because the statement found on a company's website with little explanation put a sour taste in our mouthes. We have gone through alot of explaining and rethinking, and now have a better meaning of what that statement means. However, consider this: what if this board didn't exist, and we, on our own, had found this quote. Would we have gotten such a wide response and debate, and would we have been able to properly evaluate our first impression? I have absolutly nothing against this company or anyone who runs it, but, like it or not, first impressions do matter, and, quite frankly, the statement quoted and debated in this thread gave us a bad first impression. 


Can we be done?


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## Logos (Sep 30, 2007)

Can I defend myself a bit and also make a couple of comments first.

Sean: In answer to your enquiry, I did make two separate attempts to contact "all things theatre" in light of my earlier post. I am attempting to source parts for some older Selecon and CCT 4" Fresnels. I have a large case full of bits and would like to create a few restored lanterns. I received no response so one of us has a problem with our e-mail.

I like the look of what you do. As I said I do it on a smaller scale here in SA.

Here in SA very few schools have any sort of theatre. When they do it is usually a converted classroom with a very small black box style set up. Fresnels are what they use with maybe one or two elipsoidal style lanterns. Most of them would be lucky to be running about 10 - 15 units at most off a 12 channel lighting board and dimmer rack. Most of these lanterns could be up to 20 to 30 years old or even more. There is no budget other than maybe a small budget for consumables. 

We do have a domestic company who manufactures lanterns. It's called prolite. I recently bought a 650w ERS zoom from them for $550 AUS. 
I too find it interesting that Selecon are more expensive here than in the States but it is true, Maybe they assemble them in the States I don't believe they do here.


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## icewolf08 (Sep 30, 2007)

Now I remember what the other thing I wanted to say/ask was. Price. Is it really all over Australia that fixtures cost $200 to $300 more than in the US. If the price quote earlier ($615 AUD = $544 USD) for a Source 4 is accurate, it just amazes me. It can't cost $200 to ship the fixture to Australia. It makes be wonder if demands are different. It also makes me wonder what the price of fixtures that we (in the US) consider standard are in other countries (I know we have some member from other places). Seems to me that someone is making some serious money on fixtures in Australia and I wonder if it the manufacturer or the distributor.

Makes me wonder if I could set up a business selling equipment overseas because I could ship a single unit to Australia for a total cost of $100+ USD less than what you are paying for them. Which leads me to believe that the more you send there the more cost effective it becomes.


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## Logos (Sep 30, 2007)

I would have said it was import duties but we have recently signed a freetrade agreement with the US. 
I suspect you are right about profiteering. I actually don't know the price of a Source 4 in Australia because I've always assumed I can't afford them. They are a high ticket item in this country not a staple of the industry. I just did a Google search and none of the distributor web sites that I can find have prices on them. Interesting isn't it? 
Also we like zooms. So the price you have been quoted may well be a zoom. I can't see the fixed focal length being that popular here. (note all the comments elsewhere about lazy designers.)
I have noticed the prices disparity between you and us. I import certain items from the US because even with postage and packing and insurance it costs me less than buying them here. But I don't buy anything that I would have to ship by surface mail. (Instant gratification) 
Incidently I buy some books, CD's and DVD's from Amazon because it's cheaper than buying them over the counter in Adelaide.


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## Bean (Oct 1, 2007)

First thing I have to say is I'm very impressed with the attitude on this board. Some other forums are not as... understanding.
And in reply to the specialist query, I have been interested/devoted to lighting in general ever since I can remember, I spent hours down at The Bridge theatre playing with a rig of 8 Martin 218's, the theatre has since been taken over by a church group, but it was good while it lasted. I could go on but I think the matter has been resolved adequately.
By the way, I'm 15 now.
Great forum btw


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## gafftaper (Oct 1, 2007)

Bean said:


> First thing I have to say is I'm very impressed with the attitude on this board. Some other forums are not as... understanding.
> And in reply to the specialist query, I have been interested/devoted to lighting in general ever since I can remember, I spent hours down at The Bridge theatre playing with a rig of 8 Martin 218's, the theatre has since been taken over by a church group, but it was good while it lasted. I could go on but I think the matter has been resolved adequately.
> By the way, I'm 15 now.
> Great forum btw



I think the best thing about this forum is that the people here really are interested in what other members are doing. There are a lot of nice people here who really care about helping each other do the best show possible. There are also people who are interested in learning and expanding their knowledge and aren't afraid to say they don't know, don't understand something, or made a mistake.


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## church (Oct 1, 2007)

pricing of items from one country to another is bizare - here in Canada we also pay more for S4s than you do in the U.S. even though our dollar is now worth more than a U.S. dollar. A fixed focus S4 is close to $400. The newspapers were even running articles on this with the pricing of new cars and trucks showing how a car or truck manufactured here in Canada costs more this side of the border than it does in the U.S. They went on to compare clothing electronics etc. etc. Sometimes it is the size of the market, sometimes it is what people will pay. 

Note that schools here in Canada do not have fancy theatre set ups that you see in some of the US high schools. Altmans are widely used along with colortran and older strand stuff. Note as well that much of the lighting equipment also has to be locally inspected and approved by the provincial hydro authourity before it can be used because the UL approval is not recognised here in Canada. This also adds to the cost - although ETC does get it stuff inspeceted.


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## Hughesie (Oct 1, 2007)

i liked this part of the site
http://allthingstheatre.net.au/ever_wanted_to_do_a_rock_musical.htm

"Our robotic light specialist, Sean, is 15 years old and so will relate to your students and demystify the technology."

pretty big gig for a 15yr, damm when i was that age (two years ago) i was just grasping the idea 3phase power and working with my first moving light

i have some respect for this sean as i have worked with groups who have been selected not by their choice to work crew and the young can be the hardest to teach because they get the "what does that do's" in their head and stop listening to you and start asking about all the lights you have despite you explaining that 15min ago when they were asking about the moving lights your now trying to explain.

hats off to you sean from another young tech


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## gafftaper (Oct 2, 2007)

Hughesie89 said:


> when i was that age (two years ago) i was just grasping the idea 3phase power and working with my first moving light



Hey Hughesie, I thought you had that metric 10 phase power down there.


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## Hughesie (Oct 2, 2007)

ok i will break it down for you

out normal power that everything regular runs off is 10amp 240v
but when we run lighting dimmers we use three phase 30amp...oviously

any other questions?


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## derekleffew (Oct 2, 2007)

In the USA,

Stagepin, 2P&G, GSP, connectors are used for dimmable conventional stage lights, and are always 120V (actually 108-120V line voltage). (Except for Pioneer Lighting, shame on you!)

Small movers, strobes, and most LED fixtures use Edison (PBU) connectors, and require non-dim constant power.

Large (<575W) automated lights use the NEMA L6-20 connector, which is 208V.

Very Large (Synchrolite) fixtures use the L21-30 (5wire, 120/208VAC, 3ø Wye-connected, 30A/Leg) connector.

Two caveats:
1) Some renegade Lighting Shops (my favorite is Christie Lights) such as Upstaging and PerformanceLighting (they're both excellent, too) use other connectors. Adapters are always available from the lighting shops, who wouldn't need so many if they'd standardize with the rest of the industry. End of rant.

2) Many automated and LED fixtures are auto-ranging 90-250V, so it's most-likely safe to plug them into whatever connector they come with, but NEVER into a dimmer.

3) Okay, 3 caveats. Fixtures such as the VL5 and VL5B, which have an "isolated incandescent lamp" may be safely plugged into a dimmer, but also need a constant-on power source for their motors and electronics.

4) Thanks, Vari*Lite. Series 100 and 200 VL systems use proprietary connectors. "Modern" VLs follow conventions above. 

Hope this helps, sorry that I cannot speak intelligently on non-US practices.

BTW-I've been working with moving lights since 1986 and wouldn't call myself a "moving light specialist." I don't consider anyone who can't repair an Icon, or MAC2000, or VL1000, or program a HogII or grandMA a "moving light specialst," but that's just me.

Have a nice day.


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## Bean (Oct 2, 2007)

Just a little thing...
I have got my Martin Mac Servicing Level 1 certification
and I am familiar with the grandma software and board layouts, though I have yet to be able to use one for a real show


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## David Ashton (Oct 2, 2007)

A specialist is a person who works in a 
'limited " area, not a person with a wide knowledge, to paraphrase Tom Lehrer "as we specialize more and more we will end up knowing absolutely everything about absolutely nothing.


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## Timmyp (Oct 2, 2007)

I'd like to apologise for my previous post.

I realise that perhaps I was rather harsh. I also apologise for coming over as 'holier than thou', I was merely trying to put it into context, as I personally believe (and this is my personal opinion, and I'm sorry if some of you don't agree with it) that to be a 'specialist' you need years of training, and you need to know something inside out. Which is something a 'child' can't do, due to schooling etc. at least in the UK. As someone else mentioned, things may be different in Oz.


However, as Sean has said above, he has had training. So good on you, and I wish that I had the oppurtunities that you seem to have.

To pull myself back on topic, I'd just like to say that what you are doing as a company is absolutely fantastic. It's certainly something that many schools here in the UK could do with!!


Sorry again for my previous post,

Tim


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## Hughesie (Oct 3, 2007)

having someone at their age helps them learn and helps the instructor understand further how to get through to students, but you will suffer a authority problem with them


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## Logos (Oct 3, 2007)

Changing the subject back to differential prices.
I recently needed to acquire 4 120V 250w EFN lamps for some Martin fixtures I am restoring (Pro 200's).
I asked around. nobody in Adelaide had them "Odd" I thought. The price I was quoted was $25.00AUD each. 'OK" I thought.
I tried Melbourne. I was quoted over $50.00AUD for postage and was told deivery would take two weeks. "Golly" I thought.
I looked on e-bay.
An American supplier was prepared to send me 8 of them for $5.95USD each and UPS international postage of $38.00USD.
They are Apollo lamps.
They arrived today about 6 working days after I ordered them and cost me half what they woould have cost here and arrived quicker.
Go figure


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## len (Oct 3, 2007)

derekleffew said:


> 1) Some renegade Lighting Shops (my favorite is Christie Lights) such as Upstaging and PerformanceLighting (they're both excellent, too) use other connectors. Adapters are always available from the lighting shops, who wouldn't need so many if they'd standardize with the rest of the industry. End of rant.



I agree. Never understood why Pete's/Performance uses those power-con looking connectors. Especially on lekos. 

One shop I worked for a while back used edison on all the Source4 stuff. Made it easy to rent and to set up smaller shows where there was no/a very small distro. 

And all their 208v stuff was L6-15, not L6-20, which caused some issues with other companies. 

My favorite, though, was renting out the HES StudioCommand 700s with edison, and adding on L6-15 adaptors to them.


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