# Purchase line frayed by rope lock



## MNicolai (Feb 9, 2011)

The purchase line on our main drape has started to fray at the standard trim for that soft good. The H&H rope lock appears to be the culprit. System's been in place for just 28 months.

Any recommendations on a remedy, preventing this from happening on other sets, and whether or not we should be replacing this rope?


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## gafftapegreenia (Feb 9, 2011)

Maybe try contacting your installer?


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## Call911 (Feb 9, 2011)

At 28 months old, it is mostly 'out of warranty', but your installer should still be able to help you out. Check your rope locks, make sure they're not too tight. 


Are you getting this inspected annually? Was it like this at 12months, or 24 months?

Also make sure you are not using the rope lock as a brake. The line should always be at a complete stop before locking it. 

Also, rope locks are only made to hold about 80lbs out of weight, if you're constantly running out of weight it might be straining the line more then needed. 

But for sure contact your installer. 28 months old is still very new for a rigging system.


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## DaveySimps (Feb 9, 2011)

I agree with the aforementioned posts. Contact your installer or your preferred rigging contractor. If everything is being operated properly on a regular basis, you may had a cam that is not properly adjusted in the rope lock, or something that is stuck or not sized correctly.

~Dave


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## shiben (Feb 9, 2011)

MNicolai said:


> whether or not we should be replacing this rope?


 
I think that might? be a decent idea. I wouldnt climb with a rope in anywhere near that poor of condition, not sure if you really want it on a lineset.


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## derekleffew (Feb 9, 2011)

May or may not be relevant:
Perhaps What Rigger?, MPowers, Delbert, or another of our resident rigging experts, will tell us why spiking a purchase line as illustrated is not the best alternative?


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## MNicolai (Feb 9, 2011)

We're keeping our installer out of the loop on this one. After problems with our fire curtain, line set spacing, and other clear errors in their rigging practices (such as nuts falling off of miscellaneous bolts after 12 months), we have a different rigger we contact for this sort of stuff. That rigger inspected the system about 12 months ago and this was not one of the bullet points in his report. I've already sent the photo to our head cheese who will probably contact the rigger in the next week or so.

With this being our main drape, the weight on this line set never changes, so the weight stack is well within the margin for the rope lock.

With the careful ease it requires to land the bottom of the drape squarely on the floor, I'd be surprised if anyone using our counterweight sets has found it advantageous to use the lock as a brake but I wouldn't rule the possibility out.


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## MPowers (Feb 9, 2011)

Tho only way I could accurately access this situation would be to make an on site inspection. That said, Yes the rope should be replaced as soon as possible. Has the problem just surfaced in the last few months? Or has it slowly been growing since the installation? I would love to see a couple more photos, one with a bit longer section of the rope shown on both sides of the damage and one showing the rope and lock at the same time with the curtain in the 'on spike" position, so I could see exactly where the damage is in relation to the curtain position. I would gather that the damage is shown with the curtain in the "down" position. What does the rope look like when the curtain is in the "other" position, i.e. all the way out? To be honest, unless the lock is defective with broken or jagged, sharp pieces in the cam, I find it difficult to imagine how it is causing the damage shown. It looks like a rope I replaced a few years ago and we found that one of the operators liked to run the line at speed, then slam the brake on to stop the motion. In order for that to work for him, he had over tightened the adjusting screw on the brake. I'm not saying that is the case here, only that it resembles a similar incident a while ago. If you are in a position to do so, *and* have a "qualified" person to do it, have that person completely secure the arbor in an approved manner for the operation, remove the rope from the bottom of the arbor and pull it through the lock. Now examine the interior of the lock for sharp or un-finished edges and surfaces. This may not solve your problem, but it is about the best I can do long distance.

As for the spiking method, I detest tape. It leaves goo on the rope, often slips along the rope or come off at the most inopportune time. Best way to spike is to use a short length of brightly colored ribbon or twill tape. Twist the lay of the rope slightly open, using your hands or a rope fid, and insert the ribbon so it sticks out about 1-2 inches on each side of the rope. The ribbon is easier to see coming even at high speed, and no, it does *not* get caught in the pulleys or locks! Stage Set X can be spiked with 1/4" ribbon or heavy knitting yarn, by using a large, rounded point needle, one about 6-9 inches long and about the diameter of a 10d nail with an eye, to work the casing apart and the ribbon or yarn through the outer casing.


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## MNicolai (Feb 9, 2011)

MPowers said:


> Tho only way I could accurately access this situation would be to make an on site inspection. That said, Yes the rope should be replaced as soon as possible. Has the problem just surfaced in the last few months? Or has it slowly been growing since the installation? I would love to see a couple more photos, one with a bit longer section of the rope shown on both sides of the damage and one showing the rope and lock at the same time with the curtain in the 'on spike" position, so I could see exactly where the damage is in relation to the curtain position. I would gather that the damage is shown with the curtain in the "down" position. What does the rope look like when the curtain is in the "other" position, i.e. all the way out? To be honest, unless the lock is defective with broken or jagged, sharp pieces in the cam, I find it difficult to imagine how it is causing the damage shown. It looks like a rope I replaced a few years ago and we found that one of the operators liked to run the line at speed, then slam the brake on to stop the motion. In order for that to work for him, he had over tightened the adjusting screw on the brake. I'm not saying that is the case here, only that it resembles a similar incident a while ago. If you are in a position to do so, *and* have a "qualified" person to do it, have that person completely secure the arbor in an approved manner for the operation, remove the rope from the bottom of the arbor and pull it through the lock. Now examine the interior of the lock for sharp or un-finished edges and surfaces. This may not solve your problem, but it is about the best I can do long distance.
> 
> As for the spiking method, I detest tape. It leaves goo on the rope, often slips along the rope or come off at the most inopportune time. Best way to spike is to use a short length of brightly colored ribbon. Twist the lay of the rope slightly open, using your hands or a rope fid, and insert the ribbon so it sticks out about 1-2 inches on each side of the rope. The ribbon is easier to see coming even at high speed, and no, it does *not* get caught in the pulleys or locks! Stage Set X can be spiked with 1/4" ribbon or heavy knitting yarn, by using a large, rounded point needle, one about 6-9 inches long and about the diameter of a 10d nail with an eye, to work the casing apart and the ribbon or yarn through the outer casing.



I'll try to remember to grab some more photos the next time I'm in. We were in the middle of a load-in when I noticed this so I grabbed just this photo and went back to what I was working on pretty quickly.

Yeah...tape sucks. I avoid it on the ropes but I'm not the only person who works in the theatre. There actually _was_ a short piece of white ribbon (because someone thought white was a good color for this) twisted into the rope here, but I removed it for the photo so that were wasn't any confusion about what was the frayed ribbon and what was the frayed rope.

You are correct; this is a photo of the where the trim for the "in" position is.


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## mstaylor (Feb 11, 2011)

I couldn't see the picture for some reason. Hopefully I will be able to see the additional ones.


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## venuetech (Feb 11, 2011)

Do you guillotine the main only?
or is it set at spike and then traveled?

Operating as a traveler temporarily adds weight to the line set in the form of the operators efforts to open and close the curtain. this puts a lot of stress on the rope at the lock.
if that lock has a burr or some minor imperfection it will likely chafe the rope.

not seeing any photos in this thread.


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## MNicolai (Feb 11, 2011)

Sorry about that. The photo link seems to be in-and-out. Sometimes it shows, and other times it doesn't. Here's the photos as an attachment:



We routinely guillotine for normal operations to get the drape in and out of the way, but for shows it's often used as a traveler.


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## What Rigger? (Feb 11, 2011)

I'll say +1 to what Mr. Powers has said. I'd like to also say: red-tag and "lock out" that lineset now. Replace that rope, and quick. By "lock out" I mean to secure that lineset so that nobody may operate it, and put out the word in writing and signage that nobody shall operate that lineset. 

Short of that, I agree again with Mr. Powers that an onsite inspection is the only way to go here. Get your contractor/vendor/whomever it is you use, and get him/her in there now.

As for tape as a spike mark: ICK! The goo from the adhesive (especially if it's e-tape....dear lord), the ability for it to slip/move, or to get mangled up in the sheaves, etc...I could go on for days. Consult your rigger, and Jay Glerum's manual.
I'm not even so sure about using spike or gaff tape anymore, although some venues do allow it.


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## chausman (Feb 11, 2011)

What Rigger? said:


> ...
> 
> As for tape as a spike mark: ICK! The goo from the adhesive (especially if it's e-tape....dear lord), the ability for it to slip/move, or to get mangled up in the sheaves, etc...I could go on for days. Consult your rigger, and Jay Glerum's manual.
> I'm not even so sure about using spike or gaff tape anymore, although some venues do allow it.


 So what would your preferred method of marking the lineset be?


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## MPowers (Feb 11, 2011)

Chase,

Asked and answered. Look at post #8 in this thread.


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## chausman (Feb 11, 2011)

MPowers said:


> Chase,
> 
> Asked and answered. Look at post #8 in this thread.


 
I was asking What_Rigger specifically, but thanks. I did read that though. Thanks


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## MNicolai (Feb 11, 2011)

Took a bunch of photos and locked the set out. We're calling our rigger next week to have him come take a look.

The gallery of photos can be found here and for the sake of conversation I've numbered the photos such that if someone comments about Photo #5, everyone knows exactly which photo they're talking about.

My notes from my visual inspection:
+ @ normal trim, rope in lock appears frayed on front, normal on back
+ @ high trim, rope in lock appears discolored on front, normal on back


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## MPowers (Feb 11, 2011)

Good set of photos. I do not see any obvious reason for the problem, but if there is some, slight though it may be, evidence of damage at both the normal out trim and in trim, it would appear that something about the lock is a problem. Next the question becomes whether the problem is physically with the lock or with the application. I'm sure you have already looked, but just as a check on any/all possible causes, have you checked the rest of the purchase line for any evidence of wear or damage? 

Have you or anyone from your facility contacted Reid at H&H about this? I'm sure that if there is a problem with the product itself, he will be interested in making it right.


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## MNicolai (Feb 11, 2011)

We have not contacted anyone yet about this. Once a rigger has a chance to inspect it on site, I'll get in contact with anyone we may need to get in contact with. I did a once-over on the other purchase lines and didn't see any problems on other sets, but this one easily gets used more than the others (although not so much more that after 28 months ropes should be getting frayed).


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## MJPDX (Feb 12, 2011)

Hello been around a while but never commented. Got a couple of questions for the original poster.

1. Does the spike mark get buried inside lock to represent on spike or do you stop just before enter lock or at top of lock handle or ring. I have seen many different techniques of spiking of the rope.

2. I may have missed location school or other public venue. Is the lock being used as a "brake" instead of a "lock". Heres my reasoning.
Seeing how much weight is on the arbor in the photo set some people out of laziness like to use the lock as a brake because they have not been properly shown how to control the load instead of naturally thinking hey the mechanical device is what is used why burn my hands on the expensive rope. And not being in control of the drape.
Also I see that the tape spike was a little tore up that has maybe made its way into the rope lock a couple of times. That's why I am thinking the lock is being used as a brake. 
I always go by if my piece on the batten is 400lbs and i have 400lbs on arbor I am in control of 800lbs of movement. It may be in balance but I am moving this 400lbs to move the other 400lbs.
Thank MJ


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## MNicolai (Feb 12, 2011)

Spike mark goes into the rope lock.

It's a school and a couple students use the rigging a few times a year but normal use is me and another guy. Can't say that it's never been used as a brake -- could see why it'd be tempting for the last few inches of the rope travel, but I can say with some certainty it doesn't regularly get used for speed control.

Should add that a few months ago one of the nuts from the rear of a rope lock (on a different set) fell off the bolt and into the tension block, getting jammed in their and preventing the set from moving. Subsequent review found more than 1/3 of those nuts were barely finger-tight, some of them not even.


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## mstaylor (Feb 12, 2011)

In picture eight there looks like a small piece of metal on the right side of the lock. Can't tell if that is just a piece of the fray but it bears looking into. When you have it inspected where those sections wind up when flown out needs to be looked at also.


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## MNicolai (Feb 12, 2011)

mstaylor said:


> In picture eight there looks like a small piece of metal on the right side of the lock. Can't tell if that is just a piece of the fray but it bears looking into. When you have it inspected where those sections wind up when flown out needs to be looked at also.



If you and I are looking at the same thing, I believe in the hi-res it appears to just be the texture of the rope.


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## HiThere (Feb 12, 2011)

MNicolai said:


> Yeah...tape sucks. I avoid it on the ropes but I'm not the only person who works in the theatre. There actually _was_ a short piece of white ribbon (because someone thought white was a good color for this) twisted into the rope here, but I removed it for the photo so that were wasn't any confusion about what was the frayed ribbon and what was the frayed rope.


 
Is there any possibility that the rope was damaged when this ribbon was inserted?


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## MJPDX (Feb 12, 2011)

Looking at the pics again in pic 10 the lock does not look square to the lockrail. Also in the same photo on you lineset #1 handline the on-stage side looks to have a start of a fray.
Also it looks like a lot of your parts got shipped early to the project and were not protected well from the elements.
I saw this several years ago the main contractor for a school had the pig weight shipped way early to the project and it sat in the rain. Then the poor subcontractor had to setup a tent and sandblast all 20,000 lbs weight on the loading bridge.


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## MNicolai (Feb 12, 2011)

Possible, but unlikely. I'd expect to see more damage on either side of the rope rather than just on the front and then not at all on the back. I also wouldn't expect it to be that severe lest someone was using a knife. Our standard practice is to have one person untwist the rope with their hands as best they can, then have a second person slide the ribbon through, sometimes pushing it through with a screwdriver or key (which I'm certain I'm about to be told is terrible practice and that we should be using knitting needles). I'd also expect to see similar damage on ribbon spikes on other sets.


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## MNicolai (Feb 12, 2011)

MJPDX said:


> Looking at the pics again in pic 10 the lock does not look square to the lockrail. Also in the same photo on you lineset #1 handline the on-stage side looks to have a start of a fray.
> Also it looks like a lot of your parts got shipped early to the project and were not protected well from the elements.
> I saw this several years ago the main contractor for a school had the pig weight shipped way early to the project and it sat in the rain. Then the poor subcontractor had to setup a tent and sandblast all 20,000 lbs weight on the loading bridge.


 
You have a good eye. Can't say that it's actually a fray on line set #1, but I'll check it out. Could be one of our mangled ribbon spikes that's seen better days.

As for the weight -- we're not the first owners. The weight came used from another theatre (don't know which). Still pretty peeved our general contractor didn't enforce their contract with the rigging installer to have the pipe weight bricks painted, and our usual inspector advised that we get all of our bricks painted at some point to clean them up, dull sharp edges, and such forth.


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## MPowers (Feb 12, 2011)

MNicolai said:


> ....... sometimes pushing it through with a screwdriver or key (which I'm certain I'm about to be told is terrible practice and that we should be using knitting needles). .......



Actually, an old screwdriver, with the tip ground and polished, makes a rather nice fid. Knitting needles are usually too weak and will bend or break with any rope larger than 3/8" dia. The screwdriver has a nice handle for getting a good grip to push through, the disadvantage is it isn't tapered and doesn't open up the lay after being pushed through. One of the best spike tools I have is a screwdriver with the tip ground and polished smooth and an 1/8" x 3/8" slot machined in the flat of the tip. put the twill tape in the slot, push it through, pull the ribbon out of the slot and pull the tool back out. Make a spike with one person in 5 seconds.


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## MPowers (Feb 12, 2011)

MPowers said:


> Actually, an old screwdriver, with the tip ground and polished, makes a rather nice fid.



Fid : A tool for splicing rope and macrame. Simplest are a steel rod with a point. Many have wood handles to aid in pushing through the rope. Many are hollow to allow smaller ropes and twines to be inserted in larger ropes.

SAMSON ROPE Double Braid Splicing Kit at West Marine

NEW ENGLAND ROPES Fid at West Marine

Brion Toss - Point Hudson Phid, Splicing Fid

Sea-Dog Stainless Steel Splicing Fid, Wood Handle 1/8" to 1/2"

Hollow Fid

Bailey's - Samson 9/16" Tubular Splicing Fid


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## MNicolai (Feb 12, 2011)

What looked like a fray on line set #1 is not. It's almost worse -- a duct tape spike mark. I've just placed an order for 30 yards of twill tape in assorted colors and hopefully that never happens. I don't know who brought duct tape into our theatre, but rest assured if I ever find them there will be problems. It's already a force of habit to throw away any rolls of duct tape I see walk into the theatre, although it's been several months since anyone has tried.

In other news, I noticed a similar but not as bad fray on another line set (one of our legs), also directly on top of the spike mark. For whatever the reason, another issue I noticed today is that one of our line sets doesn't go all of the way to the grid -- it falls about a foot and half short before it gets stuck. I'm going to see if I can get this maintenance visit turned into a full-fledged inspection because this is just ridiculous.


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## MNicolai (Feb 26, 2011)

Final verdict from rigging inspection: the damage was caused not by rope locks but most likely by someone damage the outer fibers on the fronts of the ropes while trying to place the ribbon spikes. The set is still locked out waiting confirmation from the head cheese that we've got the green light to keep using the ropes as they are, but I presume because he hasn't come to me panicked that we have to replace several purchase lines that the rigger deemed it acceptable to continue using the ropes (again -- still looking for confirmation on that; keep forgetting to ask).

I've ordered a bunch of bright red and bright green twill tape for ribbon spikes, cut it down into small pieces and singed the edges with a lighter to reduce fraying on the ends. Tried a plastic fid from a nearby hardware store -- should've known better; it worked well for three spikes and then the plastic tip was bent out of shape. I have a couple aluminum ones on order now that I'm waiting to show up.

While the rigger was doing the inspection, we also had him check out a weird noise on one of our line-shaft winches. For whatever the reason, when operated, it seems to vibrate the grid in a way that causes an obscure, sharp screeching noise. He wasn't able to figure out if it was benign or if it's indicative of a greater problem, but he's contacting the manufacturer to determine if there are any actions we should be taking.


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## nd925a (Feb 26, 2011)

MPowers said:


> Actually, an old screwdriver, with the tip ground and polished, makes a rather nice fid. Knitting needles are usually too weak and will bend or break with any rope larger than 3/8" dia. The screwdriver has a nice handle for getting a good grip to push through, the disadvantage is it isn't tapered and doesn't open up the lay after being pushed through. One of the best spike tools I have is a screwdriver with the tip ground and polished smooth and an 1/8" x 3/8" slot machined in the flat of the tip. put the twill tape in the slot, push it through, pull the ribbon out of the slot and pull the tool back out. Make a spike with one person in 5 seconds.


 
This sounds like those screwdriver looking things they have at auto parts stores to patch holes in car tires.


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## MNicolai (Feb 26, 2011)

Confirmed that we've been given a green light by the rigging inspector to continue using those purchase lines. (now if I didn't have to leave 2 sets permanently locked out because they get stuck hitting the tracks for the adjacent draw curtains, I'd be borderline satisfied with our rigging...)


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