# Smoke machine needs fire dept. approval ?



## SteveB (Jun 22, 2016)

This is a new one. 

Have a dance recital Sat., they rented a smoke machine, opting not to want to use our DF50.

The rental company here in New York City told them they should be calling the fire dept. to obtain a permit for usage in NYC. 

This was a new one, anybody in the NYC area ever heard of this or had to deal with this ?.


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## Footer (Jun 22, 2016)

Whats your alarm situation?


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## SteveB (Jun 22, 2016)

Not a fire alarm issue. We run smoke and haze all the time. The roof door smoke detector was removed when the powered venting system, with a different detection system was installed, so no issues in that respect.

It's a rental company that put the fear of God into the dance company. I suspect the rental folks also help "process" the permit, for a small fee of course. 

FWIW, I've spent the evening checking technical packets of about 6 NYC colleges that I know rent spaces as well as City Center, Symphoney Space and Town Hall, and nobody mentions a permit requirement for theatrical haze or smoke.


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## Amiers (Jun 22, 2016)

I would call the fire dept and ask them directly. Sounds like the rental company is looking to get some extra processing fees.


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## Footer (Jun 22, 2016)

My fire marshal will be in tomorrow.... She's a state fire officer.... I'll ask her. 

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## porkchop (Jun 23, 2016)

Sounds like a previous rental customer did something stupid and now the rental company is just trying to cover all bases. Yay for vague standards!


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## Tom Andrews (Jun 23, 2016)

It's possible you need a permit in NYC. FDNY Rules are different than State Fire Code. Amier is correct, best to call FDNY and ask them. Permits for fire, flame, pyrotechnics, all special effects etc are handled by FDNY Fire Prevention, Explosives Unit, 718-999-1595. Be specific when you talk with them about your machine - haze, fog, smoke - how it works, what the liquid is to produce the effect.


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## cdavisnyc (Jun 24, 2016)

I'm in NYC. We get FDNY permits for any open flame (including matches, cigarettes & pipes), and explosive effects. We are not required to get a permit for fog & haze. 

It can't hurt to contact the FDNY with any questions, but your venue should be able to tell you if they have some special circumstance. I'm not sure why the rental house has anything to say about it, though. That's a puzzle. 

Also, even if you had actual open flame, it's far too late to schedule a permit inspection for a performance on Sat. You'd want to schedule it weeks in advance.

What machine was rented in lieu of the DF-50?


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## Tom Andrews (Jun 24, 2016)

Did you call the FDNY explosives unit to ask them? I think getting direct information would be great, and please let everyone here know.

In asking around a bit, this is what I learned:
Yes, you need a permit in NYC. This is a new thing as of a year or two or more ago. 
The issue is that if the haze/fog/smoke activates a fire alarm, then a fire truck is dispatched to respond, and if the effect is unpermitted (without a permit) then the company is liable for ANYTHING that happens while the firetruck is responding. The rental house has no part in getting the permit, but they are obligated to notify you that you need a permit. A year ago or so a firetruck was dispatched to reply to an alarm that was caused by a smoke machine that had set off the fire alarm in the venue. The firetruck accidentally hit someone, who later died. The company who had the smoke machine, who did not get a permit, were found to be guilty of manslaughter. Additionally, responding to a false alarm diverts resources away from responding to actual fires. 
If there's a permit, and the alarm goes off, the fire department already knows that it might be/probably is a false alarm, there might even be a contact number for them to call you. And again, the special effects house is obligated to inform you. If they don't, they can be liable for damages too.

So, this is what it is in NYC. Yes, get the permit. If you haven't called them by now, you should do it right away. As a reminder, FDNY Bureau of Fire Prevention, Explosives Unit, 718-999-1595. Jim Lauer is the main contact to talk to. But you can talk to any of the people in the unit and they'll help you figure this out. I'd think they'd rather know about this at the last minute than not at all. 

Good luck.


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## SteveB (Jun 24, 2016)

Tom,

Great info and I'll be calling on Monday.

We use both LeMaitres and a DF50, so will get the info. needed.

Fortunately we have no summer events so next requirement will likely be Sept., so to me to deal with it. Hopefully and as well its a blanket permit to use theatrical smoke and haze that our venue can optain to keep on record and not a permit for each and every different event. We get all kinds of touring events that just show up and tell us "Oh, as BTW, we use smoke and have the machine". 

Thanks again and I will indeed follow up with what I learn.


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## SteveB (Jun 24, 2016)

cdavisnyc said:


> I'm in NYC. We get FDNY permits for any open flame (including matches, cigarettes & pipes), and explosive effects. We are not required to get a permit for fog & haze.
> 
> It can't hurt to contact the FDNY with any questions, but your venue should be able to tell you if they have some special circumstance. I'm not sure why the rental house has anything to say about it, though. That's a puzzle.
> 
> ...



No clue what machine, I was not involved other then to be notified of what the company renting our venue was told. As well I was off Thurs and today, so it can wait till Monday. 

And we never allow open flames without a permit. That's a no exception rule that has stopped a show and it's completely clear on page 3 of our tech. info. packet.


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## MNicolai (Jun 25, 2016)

My question in follow-up to the liability/manslaughter point is, does having a permit actually absolve you of any amount of liability? I would think that they're going to roll the first responders out if your alarm goes off whether you have a permit or not, and that you're liable either way. That is, unless a condition of the permitting is you have a fire watch in place and your alarm in bypass so you don't risk a false alarm in the first place.

By the way, let's stop calling them smoke machines. Foggers, gazers, atmospheric effects -- there any number of terms that make people unfamiliar with these effects more comfortable about them than referring to them as smoke machines.


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## SteveB (Jun 25, 2016)

MNicolai said:


> My question in follow-up to the liability/manslaughter point is, does having a permit actually absolve you of any amount of liability? I would think that they're going to roll the first responders out if your alarm goes off whether you have a permit or not, and that you're liable either way. That is, unless a condition of the permitting is you have a fire watch in place and your alarm in bypass so you don't risk a false alarm in the first place.
> 
> By the way, let's stop calling them smoke machines. Foggers, gazers, atmospheric effects -- there any number of terms that make people unfamiliar with these effects more comfortable about them than referring to them as smoke machines.



Sorry Mike, disagree with you about the term. A smoke machine (to me) is obviously different then fog and haze. Thicker effect, not low laying like fog, nor hanging in air like haze. 

Never even heard the term gazers.

As to liability, I will be bucking that one up to our public safety department, who in any case, would be involved with any NYFD permitting process. One oddity of being part of the NY State "system", which all of the 4 year colleges of the City University are (including my college), is we do not always have to follow NYC building and other code requirements. We have had NYFD inspections in the past where a violation was issued and subsequently ignored. I also well recall when about a month had passed after the installation of our new stage floor, we had a visit from a NYC building inspector, badge and all, who while standing on the new floor, asked where the new floor was going to be installed. I didn't have the heart to tell him "Oh, you mean the one your standing on ?, instead bucked it and him up to facilities.


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## MNicolai (Jun 25, 2016)

Well that's a new one. Apparently my phone tries to correct hazers to gazers.

In my region you'll primarily hear 3 terms for atmospheric effects. Haze, Fog, and Ground Fog. Ground Fog is chilled, hangs at the floor, while standard Fog just bursts up into the air but is denser than haze.

The reason I differentiate these effects from "smoke" is first, because smoke freaks some people out, and second, because performers who hear smoke go all psychosomatic and start coughing up a fit, not realizing it's a water or oil-based effect which bears no relation to what you'll find in a true cloud of dust or smoke.


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## josh88 (Jun 26, 2016)

Just as a point, from our own wiki for smoke "An atmospheric effect, where the particles produced rise and billow, in clearly defined clouds. Most of what are billed as fog machines are technically smoke machines."


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## len (Jun 26, 2016)

SteveB said:


> This is a new one.
> 
> Have a dance recital Sat., they rented a smoke machine, opting not to want to use our DF50.
> 
> ...



Never been to NYC, but yes, it's common. It's either a municipal ordinance or a venue restriction. If a fire alarm goes off in a public space and there is no actual emergency, some municipalities (and some insurance companies) might bill the venue for the trouble, which means the client pays the fine.


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## cdavisnyc (Jun 27, 2016)

Ah, okay, if it has something to do with the sequence of alarms & trucks rolling, my venue has a system in place, and we do preshow walkthroughs with FDNY before each show opens, and use of haze/fog is included. I'll admit I'm not in the loop on those inspections. This is good info for all venues to know, so thank you. 

I will cast my vote for using the terms fog/haze for machine effects and the word smoke to refer to actual particulate in the air due to something burning. If a an actor or a patron has sensitivities, that will be an important distinction. 

Internally, on the walkie/radio, if I'm reporting excessive fog/haze to our emergency coordinator, that is a different message than reporting smoke, which implies fire, intentional or unintentional. 

I wouldn't ever want the word "smoke" to be misunderstood.


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## SteveB (Jun 27, 2016)

Had a verbal conversation with one of the appropriate FDNY folks today, he was out on Friday to permit the rental machine, cost the company $250 and he basically just looked at the machine (didn't test it), indicated he knew the model, asked some questions about whether the alarm system was in standby (it wasn't and cannot be easily without Public Safety's involvement), plus smoke detector locations. 

Needless to say, the answers were not forthcoming from our SM as she didn't know. The FDNY guy allowed use anyway. 

Seems anything that emits smoke/haze/fog etc... requires both a permit as well as a person serving as fire watch. Anything includes e-cigarettes. As well, and this was a surprise, confetti canons and CO2 jets and fluid based falling snow, among a semi-inclusive list.

The permit is one time $250, or a semi-blanket monthly permit for $210. Seems you can blanket permit for other things as well, including open flame as well as pyro - though on that you need a licensed tech. as per separate NYC law. And of course a licensed fire watch

There's no website to find anything out, it's an e-mail to the NYFD then one of the explosive unit folks will respond.

A Google yielded this pdf.


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## MNicolai (Jun 27, 2016)

$420 for an 8-hour fire watch by the FDNY Explosives Unit. Firefighters don't make enough money.


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## SteveB (Jun 27, 2016)

MNicolai said:


> $420 for an 8-hour fire watch by the FDNY Explosives Unit. Firefighters don't make enough money.



An event can bring on a fire watch person who would be licensed by the NYFD. Presumably a stagehand and/or SM or asst. SM can serve the role.

And as well. The NYFD person is already making their rate for the day, the $420 goes to the city.


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## Jay Ashworth (Jul 17, 2016)

SteveB said:


> And as well. The NYFD person is already making their rate for the day, the $420 goes to the city.



Is that the case?

I would have assumed it was akin to PD 'paid detail', where the office is off-duty, and gets a cut of the hourly, the department acting, essentially, as a booking agency.

Some cops make more off paid detail than they do in salary; it's been somewhat of a scandal some places.


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## SteveB (Jul 18, 2016)

They charge $210 for a permit with an NYFD Explosives unit member doing the inspection. That $210 is for a standard 9-5 time slot. If you can't do it until after normal hours, they charge $400 something, which I assume goes to pay the OT of the inspector.


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## Jay Ashworth (Jul 18, 2016)

You're talking about permit inspection now. We were both talking about firewatch previously. 

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## SteveB (Jul 18, 2016)

Well I've been talking both.

You need a permit, which can either be a one-time for $210 or the $400 something if after normal hours, or you can get a monthly permit that covers a variety of different devices.

And you need a licensed fire watch person for all listed device usage. That's a test and $75. No idea if it's yearly, as we are still awaiting our Public Safety office response on this issue thus I back burner'ed it for the time being


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## billn (Sep 15, 2016)

MNicolai said:


> Well that's a new one. Apparently my phone tries to correct hazers to gazers.
> 
> In my region you'll primarily hear 3 terms for atmospheric effects. Haze, Fog, and Ground Fog. Ground Fog is chilled, hangs at the floor, while standard Fog just bursts up into the air but is denser than haze.
> 
> The reason I differentiate these effects from "smoke" is first, because smoke freaks some people out, and second, because performers who hear smoke go all psychosomatic and start coughing up a fit, not realizing it's a water or oil-based effect which bears no relation to what you'll find in a true cloud of dust or smoke.



The liquid probably does not contain any oil based component, as breathing such liquid vapors can cause lipid pneumonia.

Both glycerin and propylene glycol are alcohols.


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## techieman33 (Sep 15, 2016)

billn said:


> The liquid probably does not contain any oil based component, as breathing such liquid vapors can cause lipid pneumonia.
> 
> Both glycerin and propylene glycol are alcohols.



Hazers such as the DF-50 are oil based. They use mineral oil to create the effect.


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## Van (Sep 15, 2016)

billn said:


> ...Both glycerin and propylene glycol are alcohols.


glycerin can be dissolved in alcohol. It is Not an alcohol. If it were, you most likely wouldn't need to remove it from Bio-diesel.


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