# Knot tying



## derekleffew (Feb 20, 2008)

I'm trying to force everyone I encounter in this industry to learn how to tie a clove hitch and bowline. Edit: Sorry, fixed, just no one check all four!


----------



## soundlight (Feb 20, 2008)

I can't select both...what the heck.

I can tie: clove hitch, bowline, square knot, figure eight, carrick bend, two half hitches & tauntline hitch, prussik, timber hitch, trucker's hitch, pipe hitch, sheet bend, sheepshank, and some others, can't remember them all right now

Yah, I'm an Eagle Scout, and was the only person in my troop who knew all of the knots. I always enjoyed knot tying contests and lashing together camp gadgets (my infamous foot-pedal camp sink, trash bag hanger, twine hanger, and integral soap dispenser).


----------



## thelightingmancan (Feb 20, 2008)

I know most of those knots, and we will surely teach them in our school's Technical Theatre class next year!


----------



## bobgaggle (Feb 20, 2008)

soundlight said:


> I'm an Eagle Scout, and was the only person in my troop who knew all of the knots.



I still get flak for being a boy scout, but they teach you some crazy useful skills, including knot tying. I always liked being the guy who would know how to do anything with the rope and put all the little tenderfoots (tenderfeet?) in their place. One thing I had to learn on my own though, is splicing. No one in my troop (including the adults) new how to.

But i find the most important knot to know is the noose. I always freak out the people in my department by lynching a dummy we have from the rafters. I guess I have issues or something


----------



## Charc (Feb 20, 2008)

bobgaggle said:


> I still get flak for being a boy scout, but they teach you some crazy useful skills, including knot tying. I always liked being the guy who would know how to do anything with the rope and put all the little tenderfoots (tenderfeet?) in their place. One thing I had to learn on my own though, is splicing. No one in my troop (including the adults) new how to.
> But i find the most important knot to know is the noose. I always freak out the people in my department by lynching a dummy we have from the rafters. I guess I have issues or something



I wouldn't recommend that. I recall an article being linked to in a topic where a few stagehands got fired for a similar incident.


----------



## derekleffew (Feb 20, 2008)

bobgaggle said:


> ...But i find the most important knot to know is the noose. I always freak out the people in my department by lynching a dummy we have from the rafters. I guess I have issues or something


Please see the "shackle" thread. In my world, clove hitch and bowline are the two most-used knots, other than perhaps the shoe-lace knot.


----------



## soundlight (Feb 20, 2008)

derekleffew said:


> In my world, clove hitch and bowline are the two most-used knots, other than perhaps the shoe-lace knot.


This is true. The clove hitch is also part of a good pipe hitch, along with a reverse loop.


----------



## What Rigger? (Feb 21, 2008)

I've got all of the above, plus a decent eye-splice, back splice, alpine butterfly, inline figure 8, bridled figure 8 (aka bunny ears) and the monkey's fist for knockin' fools out and keepin' it gangsta.


----------



## Van (Feb 21, 2008)

soundlight said:


> ********I can tie: clove hitch, bowline, square knot, figure eight, carrick bend, two half hitches & tauntline hitch, prussik, timber hitch, trucker's hitch, pipe hitch, sheet bend, sheepshank, and some others, can't remember them all right now*************************


 
Oh Yeah ?!? Can you tie a genuine Tennessee Wad Hitch?
Seems to be a real popular knot now days. It kinda reminds me of the scene in the movie " A Chorus Line" when Kirk Douglas Jr. says " You, In the yellow, Have you taken Ballet?" ... " No, I haven't"... "Then Don't Dance!!!"
If you can't reliably tie a clove hitch AND Bowline And Truckers Hitch, you have no bussiness calling yourself a stagehand. You could get away with being in any number of disciplines in the theatre without knowing these, but not a stagehand.


bobgaggle said:


> *****But i find the most important knot to know is the noose. I always freak out the people in my department by lynching a dummy we have from the rafters. I guess I have issues or something


 
Just a bye-the-bye the are laws on the books of several of these here United States, that make it illegal to tie a working "Hangmans Noose" unless it is to be employed in a state sanctioned execution. 
Question of the day item, How many loops <wraps> are incorporated into a "real" Hangmans noose.


----------



## deadlygopher (Feb 21, 2008)

Van said:


> Just a bye-the-bye the are laws on the books of several of these here United States, that make it illegal to tie a working "Hangmans Noose" unless it is to be employed in a state sanctioned execution.



Any idea if Oregon is one of those states?


----------



## Charc (Feb 21, 2008)

Van said:


> Oh Yeah ?!? Can you tie a genuine Tennessee Wad Hitch?
> Seems to be a real popular knot now days. It kinda reminds me of the scene in the movie " A Chorus Line" when Kirk Douglas Jr. says " You, In the yellow, Have you taken Ballet?" ... " No, I haven't"... "Then Don't Dance!!!"
> If you can't reliably tie a clove hitch AND Bowline And Truckers Hitch, you have no bussiness calling yourself a stagehand. You could get away with being in any number of disciplines in the theatre without knowing these, but not a stagehand.
> Just a bye-the-bye the are laws on the books of several of these here United States, that make it illegal to tie a working "Hangmans Noose" unless it is to be employed in a state sanctioned execution.
> Question of the day item, How many loops <wraps> are incorporated into a "real" Hangmans noose.



I'll had that to the list of things I'm not:

Stagehand 

I did sail briefly, knew how to tie a bowline.. sorta... once.


----------



## soundlight (Feb 21, 2008)

What Rigger? said:


> and the monkey's fist for knockin' fools out and keepin' it gangsta.



Forgot about that one! I've got a nice heavy one with a tennis ball core for takin' care of the fools.. I keep a smaller one for tying on to the end of throwing lines.


----------



## Van (Feb 21, 2008)

charcoaldabs said:


> I'll had that to the list of things I'm not:
> 
> Stagehand
> 
> I did sail briefly, knew how to tie a bowline.. sorta... once.


 
There's no reason you can't be one. Tying knots is not hard and the basics are really pretty easy. I didn't mean to sound so harsh < now that I re-read it, sounds kinda harsh> it's just aggravating when you ask someone to tie something off and you find they've put a bow knot on it and think it's gonna hold.


----------



## thorin81 (Feb 21, 2008)

I use a clove hitch and a bowline on a regular basis. Two others that I use all the time are a sheet bend (combining 2 lengths of rope) and a figure 8 (particularly usefull for hoisting stuff...). In general, knowing how to tie knots will be extremely beneficial if you are a stage hand. At some point you will have to tie something to something and the birds-nest-knot (aka - the cluster @#$* knot) just won't do!


----------



## soundlight (Feb 21, 2008)

thorin81 said:


> birds-nest-knot (aka - the cluster @#$* knot)



I generally like to call it the left-handed reverse mitzubishi. I definitely tied my fair share of those while learning rope craft.


----------



## icewolf08 (Feb 21, 2008)

Well, there is the old adage: "If you don't know the knot, tie a lot."


----------



## gafftapegreenia (Feb 21, 2008)

What Rigger? said:


> I've got all of the above, plus a decent eye-splice, back splice, alpine butterfly, inline figure 8, bridled figure 8 (aka bunny ears) and the monkey's fist for knockin' fools out and keepin' it gangsta.



What Rigger?: Keepin' CB gangsta since Aug. 2006.


----------



## jwl868 (Feb 22, 2008)

Van said:


> Just a bye-the-bye the are laws on the books of several of these here United States, that make it illegal to tie a working "Hangmans Noose" unless it is to be employed in a state sanctioned execution.



Are those state laws that are vestiges of 1700s and 1800s, or do you mean the more recent hate-crime laws (like in New York)? The hate-crime laws apply to any noose and the penalties are severe.

Joe


----------



## Van (Feb 22, 2008)

jwl868 said:


> Are those state laws that are vestiges of 1700s and 1800s, or do you mean the more recent hate-crime laws (like in New York)? The hate-crime laws apply to any noose and the penalties are severe.
> 
> Joe


 
I was refferring to some of those "left over" laws from back in the day. Like the fact that it's illegal to drive an automobile down Mainstreet in Oklahoma City.


----------



## Marius (Feb 23, 2008)

Hello, my name is Rick and I'm a knot idiot. I can tie a clove hitch, and my shoes, and a figure 8. Does anyone know if there are any videos out there about knot tying? I've tried the diagrams, but they usually confuse me more than help. I've been taught the bowline several times, but I keep forgetting it. It has long been my secret shame.


----------



## derekleffew (Feb 23, 2008)

Bowline: With the long end of the rope at the top, make a hole (loop) by running the short end over the long end CCW. Taking the short, free end, "the rabbit comes out of the hole, runs around the back of the tree, and back into the hole."


----------



## Capi (Feb 25, 2008)

I find this site quite helpful. http://www.animatedknots.com/


----------



## What Rigger? (Feb 28, 2008)

gafftapegreenia said:


> What Rigger?: Keepin' CB gangsta since Aug. 2006.




Yeah...well, you know how it is- pimpin' ain't easy but it's necessary. Pardon me now while I go spill some OE outta my 40 for all my dead homies here in this lilly-white part of SoCal I live in.

Word.


----------



## Logos (Feb 29, 2008)

Van said:


> Question of the day item, How many loops <wraps> are incorporated into a "real" Hangmans noose.



13 loops.

Required key strokes


----------



## tweetersaway (Apr 23, 2008)

Logos said:


> 13 loops.
> Required key strokes


the 'for show' hangman's noose traditionally had 13 coils, but in practice, they only used 6 to 8 because 13 got way too tight and they couldn't reuse the rope because they would have to cut it off. I did a speech on this stuff a couple of years ago.


----------



## Clifford (Apr 23, 2008)

Depending on your source a noose is 7 or 13 turns. Though, for a show, it can probably be done with any number to look real.
I'm a volunteer at the San Diego Maritime Museum, so knots and I get along pretty well. Apart from being very useful, we get tested on knots every year. In theatre I've seen people struggle to bracket two things together, and then show them how a knot can be of equal or greater use.


----------



## salsa88 (Apr 29, 2008)

tweetersaway said:


> the 'for show' hangman's noose traditionally had 13 coils, but in practice, they only used 6 to 8 because 13 got way too tight and they couldn't reuse the rope because they would have to cut it off. I did a speech on this stuff a couple of years ago.




I was told traditionally the hang mans noose used 13 coils to break the neck of the victim. Also my theater teacher told us its illegal and bad luck to use a 13 coil hang mans noose. I'm not positive if its true just adding my cents.

Also does anyone know how to do a "throw knot"?
I had a guy on my crew who could tie a knot by holding the ends of a rope and spins it while throwing one of the ends through a loop, tightening itself into a pretty strong knot with a loop.


----------



## Clifford (Apr 29, 2008)

I don't know about Nevada, but in California, it's illegal to tie a noose with 13 turns.

Technically all knots are thrown, that's the verb for creating a knot . Could you provide a picture of the knot or a more detailed description? I know of a knot that can be thrown, but it doesn't usually have a working loop or bight.


----------



## blademaster (Jun 26, 2008)

well...I cant tie much. never thought of myself as a stagehand, usually a board op. have worked theatre sound and my SM told me if you cant tie a know well tie a lot of them. I laughed and followed through but i would rather be able to tie knots correctly. any good ways for me to learn?


----------



## Destrox (Jun 26, 2008)

I know square, bowline, double half-hitch, taut-line, clovehitch, sheepshank, and a few others, but usually when I can get away with it I tie the F***-it Knot.

Anyone know how to tie a one-handed bowline? What are you gonna do to get out if you fall off an overhanging and break your arm and can't walk/climb out? Yay Eagle Scouts! (all I have left is the project, already submitted mine for approval)


----------



## derekleffew (Jun 27, 2008)

blademaster said:


> ...Any good ways for me to learn?


See this post by Capi. Or have an old stagehand teach you the ropes.

Sorry, didn't realize animatedknots had gone commercial. Try this site.


----------



## blademaster (Jun 27, 2008)

yay!! thanks


----------



## TechSooth (Jun 27, 2008)

derekleffew said:


> Bowline: With the long end of the rope at the top, make a hole (loop) by running the short end over the long end CCW. Taking the short, free end, "the rabbit comes out of the hole, runs around the back of the tree, and back into the hole."



I learned the same story, including" the tree roots go into the ground, the rabbit comes out..." to remind you to lay the butt OVER the long rope. I also always throw a bight into the hole after the rabbit runs around the tree instead of the butt so that I have a release tail to pull on when I'm ready to untie it. When you haunch down on a bowline, it's a pain to release, but with the bight through the hole all you have to do is pull.


----------



## gafftaper (Jun 27, 2008)

derekleffew said:


> "the rabbit comes out of the hole, runs around the back of the tree, and back into the hole."



In the rigging class I took last week, the Bowline was alternately described as... "The stage hand walks out of the bar, around the telephone pole, and back into the bar."


----------



## TechSooth (Jun 27, 2008)

gafftaper said:


> "The stage hand walks out of the bar, around the telephone pole, and back into the bar."



But was he tight?


----------



## Clifford (Jun 27, 2008)

One handed bowlines just require a lot of forefinger and thumb in moving the working end of the line through the initial loop. I don't really know how to describe it in words. Practice?, I guess.


----------



## Destrox (Jun 27, 2008)

Yeah I guess you could do it that way, the way I learned it was holding the rope and not really using your fingers. This would be tieing the rope around your waist by the way. No actual advantage to it in theater.


----------



## tweetersaway (Jun 28, 2008)

I learned the the Clove Hitch, the Sheet Bend, and a one handed around your body bowline at the State High School Theater Festival a couple years ago. It was in the Techie Olympics, and in the event, we had to tie a clove hitch around a pipe with an overhand as a stopper knot, tie the second rope to that rope with a Sheet bend, then finish it out with the one handed bowline. I think I got it in about 16 seconds, but the record was 11 I think. It's a lot of fun, and sometimes I just do it in my house to practice my knots. They're all knots that I use all the time in our theater.


----------



## highdesertpirate (Jun 29, 2008)

Question of the day item, How many loops <wraps> are incorporated into a "real" Hangmans noose.[/QUOTE]

As far as I remember, there are 13 loops on a hangman's noose. For those who were not boyscouts, the reason for the noose is not strangulation, but to instantly break the neck, hence the reason for the long, stiff knot. By the way, I have used bowlines for years to tie down loads on my work truck. Let's find a happy topic tomorrow. LOL


----------

