# Alternative Methods of Cable Coiling?



## rochem (Feb 10, 2011)

So in one of my classes today, our professor took the class into the theatre and taught everyone how to properly coil cable. Interestingly, he specifically kept pointing out that he hated the "over-under" method of coiling, and that it wasn't the best method. Instead, his reasoning is that when the cable was first made, it was pulled off a spool, so it wants to return to that same shape. From what I could tell, it looked like he was just doing a normal "over-over" coiling technique.

Is there any logic to that argument? I've been over-undering cable for so long now that I just end up doing it naturally without thinking about it, so to hear that over-undering is an inferior method of coiling was very surprising. If I recall correctly, the logic behind over-undering is that you're canceling out the twist in the cable, or something along those lines? So is there any reason (apart from the possibility of putting half-hitches in your cable) why some other method of coiling might be preferred over the over-under method?

Thanks!


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## avkid (Feb 10, 2011)

Is he a working professional?

Over under and figure eight are the only acceptable methods for anything longer than a few feet.


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## Footer (Feb 10, 2011)

In the lighting world, its over under all the time for me. In the audio world, I go with whatever the venue wants. We have some tours come through that want everything over undered, others that want everything done over over. It really just comes down to who owns the gear. In reality, I just follow whatever the cable wants to do.


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## derekleffew (Feb 10, 2011)

I hope you appreciate this, 'cause this is my second time typing it. I hit the wrong tab the first time and lost the entire post.

rochem said:


> ...Interestingly, he specifically kept pointing out that he hated the "over-under" method of coiling, and that it wasn't the best method. Instead, his reasoning is that when the cable was first made, it was pulled off a spool, so it wants to return to that same shape. From what I could tell, it looked like he was just doing a normal "over-over" coiling technique. ...


As a student, it's not your place to tell him his reasoning is flawed (nor would I encourage it (he's probably a squint, and thus "sensitive")). Think of when the cable was taken off the spool for the first time. Was it un-spooled either over or under (like toilet paper) or was it pulled off the side of the spool? Now, when you're unwinding a coiled cable, do you roll it on the ground, or just pull one end? Try this with a roll of toilet paper, and you'll easily see how much twist you artificially introduce into the cable, by pulling off the side. 

Now all that being said, I usually over-over power cable, over-under data and mic cable, and for multi-cable, do whatever the cable tells me it wants. I've found that most multi is fine with over-over, but wants one over-under every so often.

For those who don't know, here is the definitive video on the over-under technique for mic cable: Stagecraft: Members' Gallery: Over/Under Cable Wrapping .

Riggers: What's the term for a rope that's "in balance" with no undue twists or kinks? The term escapes me right now. Is it "in equilibrium" or is "in balance" correct?


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## MNicolai (Feb 10, 2011)

derekleffew said:


> Now all that being said, I usually over-over power cable, over-under data and mic cable, and for multi-cable, do whatever the cable tells me it wants. I've found that most multi is fine with over-over, but wants one over-under every so often.


 
I mostly do the same if I'm in my venue. Data and audio cables are usually over-under, but power cables with a heavy outer-jacket are easier to do over-over. I find coiling multi-cable in loops on the ground (and large mic snakes) to be simpler as over-under.

If I'm in someone else's venue, I'll usually ask what they want but most times I'm just told to coil however I want to.

To be completely honest -- I'm just happy when my student technicians aren't coiling cables around their elbows. I know what I prefer for the different types of cables, but for any cable I'll settle for anything resembling a coil that wasn't done looped around someone's elbow.


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## rochem (Feb 10, 2011)

avkid said:


> Is he a working professional?


 

derekleffew said:


> As a student, it's not your place to tell him his reasoning is flawed



I have no intention of calling him out - quite the opposite. I have a tremendous amount of respect for this guy. This is his first year/class teaching at my school, but he previously worked for a well-known industry manufacturer helping to develop SHoW DMX. He's a pretty young guy, and I don't know the extent of his other credits, but he certainly seems to know quite a lot, which is why I was so surprised to hear him saying that over-under was an inferior method.


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## FatherMurphy (Feb 10, 2011)

I've had a few roadies come through that would not only specify over-over, but who would come unglued if you coiled counterclockwise instead of clockwise.

Over-under is nice if you want to quickly lay out a cable and have it lay flat, over-over will often leave twist loops sticking up as trip hazards. I'm in the 'whatever the cable wants' camp, myself (hmm... poll time?).

The worst result is no coiling at all - rental house I work for occasionally gets equipment back from high school groups with all the cable (lightings, sound, power) all in one big spaghetti ball. Nothing like having to spend a couple extra hours de-macrameing the mess...


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## DuckJordan (Feb 10, 2011)

We prefer not to over under as its evidently too difficult to teach some of the techs here

sent from my Droid incredible using tapatalk.


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## bishopthomas (Feb 10, 2011)

A couple of guys I work with hate over/under because they say it introduces knots. Of course, if they were to take the time to make sure not to pull the connector through the loop then they wouldn't have any problem. I hate when I lay a cable and it looks like a stretched slinky...


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## bishopthomas (Feb 10, 2011)

FatherMurphy said:


> The worst result is no coiling at all - rental house I work for occasionally gets equipment back from high school groups with all the cable (lightings, sound, power) all in one big spaghetti ball. Nothing like having to spend a couple extra hours de-macrameing the mess...


 
I hate that too, but I'd rather have that than an over the arm-wrapped cable.


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## derekleffew (Feb 10, 2011)

FatherMurphy said:


> ...I'm in the 'whatever the cable wants' camp, myself (hmm... poll time?) ...


I thought we once did a poll, but I can't find it. I did find these relevant threads:
http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/general-advice/3956-ahhh-cable-wrapping.html
http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/sound-music-intercom/8286-relaxing-cables.html
http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/sound-music-intercom/2753-training-cable.html


FatherMurphy said:


> ... The worst result is no coiling at all - rental house I work for occasionally gets equipment back from high school groups with all the cable (lightings, sound, power) all in one big spaghetti ball. Nothing like having to spend a couple extra hours de-macrameing the mess...


Some call that westcoasting. When working a professional crew with rental gear, which would a producer prefer: paying 20 hands $20+ per hour to neatly coil and tie cable (knowing each and every cable is going to get recoiled on a machine by an $8/hour shop guy and then tied with jute 27 times), or just sending it back thrown in a box?


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## ship (Feb 10, 2011)

I over-under when the cable is new, than listen to the cable after that to some extent if it's what was trained into the cable as opposed to what is currently twisted into the cable in needing to be pulled out and un-twisted. There is a difference especially for smaller size cables. 

Big fan of figure 8 for a cable loom.


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## mstaylor (Feb 10, 2011)

I learned over-over and did that for years. I then learned over-under. 90% of what I do is other peoples gear so I do what the owner wants. I simply let them know that I know both methods and will do as asked. As far as leaving as loop sticking up, sometimes a cable needs an extra over over. The best thing is always try to stretch the cable out before wrapping. I also never allow anyone to help pull when I wrapping a cable, it stops the cable from rolling out the end as you roll.


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## ship (Feb 10, 2011)

This debate is probably also why especially on data snakes, hoist and Soco cable I have to replace them as much as I do. Don't want the local opinion, it's my cable and I'm the one that has to spend thousands per year in replacing it when it pigtails. Ask the people responsible for the gear and do it how they want.

Even painted green a entirely pigtailed 75' length of 8-pair data snake, painted the plugs red an left it coiled as found. Decorated it with X-Mass lights and it's my department's holoday wreath brought out every year. Probably the most expensive wreath ever made. Left the serial numbers on it, and it still works - so if someone really really needs one (especially if the Shop Manager wants one)... it's green but still in the active inventory. Took great care so as to preserve it's lable and barcode. 

(Private joke on the Shop Manager in not wanting anything in his system even slightly so... "Thanks, and I'll just have to explain to the owners and General Manager... why for the rehearsal rig it's as it is." Tour left for Europe with good cable, rehearsal left on time and had to have a not all that badly twisted cable that worked for its last show.. Sorry but it did function and was not that badly twisted - marginal and got it out the door in my judgement. Ah' the good things about Not My Boss - yell at me all you want.)

P.S. I'm not that smug so as to screw a show or even rehearsal. There was no time to make a new cable for the rehearsal, I did make new ones for the production. Situation of cable itself currently in use pigtailing faster than the old stuff is being addressed in a long term testing or going back to before stuff. New cable doesn't break as easily but pigtails. Older cable cuts and breaks in conductor more readily thus reason for trying something new. Went back to the older cable that doesn't pigtail as easily but that probably won't other than cosmetically solve poduction needs. Would you rather a cosmetic pigtailed cable that works or one that doesn't cosmetically pigtail but more easily breaks or cuts thus doesn't work on some channels? 

Above kind of joke in sending the Shop Manager a cable I knew he would not like, but on the other hand responsibility on my part in solving reliability and quality problems overall. Working on a few options and looking into others. Thousands of dollars in play in solving these problems. Mostly about audio snake cable - even if digital grade the only snake cable available for multi-channel DMX.

I can pay to make my own cable and almost ready to do so. A lot of the problem is how after use, this cable is coiled and how nice it plays with other cables it is loomed with.

For me, imagine a jacketed 1/16" wire rope core with at least eight circuits of DMX of like 18 or 20ga. and heavy jacket about them. Yea, about to go to that in custom building it. Cost effective theory in it not wearing out. Imagine snake cable with a rubberized jacket instead of something thermoplastic. 120 ohm etc. as a designed cable.

Only thing standing between me and ording up such a thing is that I would need to buy say 10,000 feet which I could do, but also that ethernet and fiber optic are more and more making such copper standards in running data obsolete.

Still though imagine a 18 or 20ga 120 ohm data snake with heavy rubber jacket and with wire rope core. Still depend on people coiling it correctly but after that, wouldn't fail. 

People coiling the cable cause of the problem that costs thousands of dollars per year in replacing it. Dogmatic over under or over over... Listen to the cable or stretch it out already please. Problem isn't with the cable, problem is with those coiling it in causing the problem I am working on idito proofing. And idiot proofing is the key word here.


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## mstaylor (Feb 10, 2011)

Why the wire rope center? It soundslike it would make rolling it a real bastard.


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## WooferHound (Feb 10, 2011)

ship said:


> I am working on idiot proofing. And idiot proofing is the key word here.



If you make something Idiot Proof, then they will make a Better Idiot . . .


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## ship (Feb 10, 2011)

mstaylor said:


> Why the wire rope center? It soundslike it would make rolling it a real bastard.



Wire rope cores make for cable that cannot suffer from "Cable Stretch." Imagine a cable, let's take a hoist cable - 16/7 in a group that took years to get out of the inventory. If one assumes 1/4 turn per foot twist on the outer conductors, you now get inner conductors that are shorter in length than the outer conductors. Once that cable is tugged or dragged about some, hung up by way of basically a multi-calble zip cord that is done wrong by way of 1/4 thru 2 ton chain hoist... what's going to give up first, the hoist or the cable? This in a stretching of the cable, the outer conductors un-twisting and the center conductor - if only one failing by way of green stick fracture of the wire. At times such green stick type fractures even test out in prepping for a show, but a single strand currently touching sufficient to get continuity isn't enough to make a hoist work later.

Anyway, back to the wire rope core. Switched to that grade of elevator cable years ago for the hoists in 16/7. Cost prohivitive for cables feeding the hoists but for the hoists themselves, cost effective. Means a cable that has seven conductors twisted around a heavily insulated 95# SWL 1/16" inner core to the cable that won't break uless tugged on by the hoist itself. No cable stretch in the other conductors streightening out or un-twisting for their 1/4 turn per foot standard, and that wire rope in the center not breaking.

Means if something has to give if pulled, mostly it isn't the conductors, and that ain't a cable that will pigtail if the center core cannot allow for twist. Fold it right or it ain't coiling. Could twist and un-coil but you would get a knot inside the cable instead of failure.

So overall concept is that assuming that when that wire rope is attached to plug bodies, it cannot twist or pigtail. That's the concept at least with such a thing, that plus the wire rope core takes all the stress and the thin conductors thus have ability not to break.

You might get a knob or bump in the wire were the outer conductors un-twisted themselves, or at least less frequently where they twisted themselves too tight - all by way of badly coiling the cable, but you do solve the problem overall in cable stretch. Say as a theory, 1/3 less problems with cables failing and mostly easy to find that cause of failure.

Again, a concept in the cable isn't the problem, but idiot proofing it suffieiently that it can be coiled and put in a box, this without it causing a problem. The wire rope won't twist at a certain point in them coiling it figuring out they have a problem or not but it evident.

Wire rope cores to hoist whips... been used for years on at least our chain hoists. Much better than standard cable.


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## gafftapegreenia (Feb 10, 2011)

At work we coil all mic, video, data and A/C cable over-under. I was an over-over guy but they converted me. The reason most people don't like over-under is they can't remember to start pulling from the outside end of the cable instead of the inside end. Pull from the inside and it's just one big ol' mess. 

Feeder and multi over, say, 25', I let it guide me, usually as I coil it into a roadcase or onto a table. 

Really, as long as its coiled neatly with reasonable loops (please no concertina coils) I'm happy. I do my best to stop the elbow-coilers, and generally dislike the figure-8 method.


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## shiben (Feb 11, 2011)

gafftapegreenia said:


> At work we coil all mic, video, data and A/C cable over-under. I was an over-over guy but they converted me. The reason most people don't like over-under is they can't remember to start pulling from the outside end of the cable instead of the inside end. Pull from the inside and it's just one big ol' mess.
> 
> Feeder and multi over, say, 25', I let it guide me, usually as I coil it into a roadcase or onto a table.
> 
> Really, as long as its coiled neatly with reasonable loops (please no concertina coils) I'm happy. I do my best to stop the elbow-coilers, and generally dislike the figure-8 method.


 
Doesnt the Figure 8 method have something to do with avoiding some problem when dealing with feeder cable? I felt like it was if you coil it right normally you end up with a big magnet, but dont really remember too well.


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## epimetheus (Feb 11, 2011)

shiben said:


> Doesnt the Figure 8 method have something to do with avoiding some problem when dealing with feeder cable? I felt like it was if you coil it right normally you end up with a big magnet, but dont really remember too well.


 
That's for feeder cable that's in operation. A coil of single conductor wire without the other phases to cancel the magnetic field out will create an electromagnet when there's current flowing. This can cause localized heating in the cable. Figure eight-ing the cable is one way to avoid this. The alternating coil direction cancel out the magnetic field. If you've got banded feeder cable, this shouldn't be an issue, but I've often seen banded feeders figure eight-ed anyway.


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## mstaylor (Feb 11, 2011)

I saw a company leave their feeder in the box, straight wrapped, after the road case got soaked in the rain on a previous gig. They pull about 15ft of a 100 ft feeder out and hooked it up, I was rigging so I didn't do the tap. All of a sudden we had smoke. It didn't catch fire but it heated the cable that started to burn off the wet foam. Not pretty! It was a simple matter of recoiling on the floor, but it did get the show guys' attention.


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## FatherMurphy (Feb 11, 2011)

I've heard people claim that figure eighting both feeder and socapex lighting cables can reduce sound system buzz when it's not possible to transformer isolate them. Haven't had a chance to experiment to confirm/deny it, usually not enough time in the field to recoil an entire rig.


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## mstaylor (Feb 11, 2011)

I doubt that seriously but the only way to prove it is to load-in several times in the same venue with the same gear. I have seen guys figure eight soco simply to be able to stack several cables deep and not have them become one.


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## Psyd (Feb 11, 2011)

FatherMurphy said:


> I've heard people claim that figure eighting both feeder and socapex lighting cables can reduce sound system buzz when it's not possible to transformer isolate them.



What you're doing with a figure eight is creating a giant capacitance, much in the same way that the twists in your mic and data cables does. Oddly, over-overing your cables will destroy that capacitance which is why we over-under them. The twists, especially in data, are remarkably important to the quality of the end signal. EVERY TIME you over-over your cable, and then pull it straight, you're changing that twist, ergo that capacitance.
Ever wonder how those multi cables and Edison cords that start life out straight end up looking like an old Ma Bell handset cord? Mistreatment, via over-overing them and pulling them out straight. Over-over introduces a twist into the cable; over-under does the same, but then unwinds that twist every other turn. 
Over over clockwise is a leftover from the days of twisted hemp and manila. It's so you don't unlay a rope. If you're an anachronism on the deck, continue as you have been. 
Today's modern technician is much more than a deck-hand hired as beef, he knows what the cables do, how they do it, an HOW TO KEEP THEM DOING THAT. Unless a cable is going to go on a reel, or maybe into a box and from the box straight into the air, the best way to preserve that cable is to over-under it.
And spend a second at the end of every wrap to make sure that the ends are not going to go through the loops. Poorly wrapped cable is a problem, and not paying attention to where the ends go is a definition of poorly wrapped. If they mate, mate 'em. It not only prevents knots, it prevents dust and dirt from getting into your delicate connections, and keeps the ends round and straight. Egg-shaped connectors are a drag. This solves a myriad of problems.
And for the OP, it doesn't matter how long you've been doing this, or who you've worked for, or what shows. If you've been doing it wrong all this time, it's still wrong. And yeah, even professors that used to be pros can make mistakes.


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## gafftapegreenia (Feb 11, 2011)

I think I've gotten terms confused. I have no problems with figure 8'ing cable. Its the guys who sort of "zig zag" the cable back in forth in their hand and then tie that zig zag in a square knot.


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## mstaylor (Feb 12, 2011)

Psyd said:


> What you're doing with a figure eight is creating a giant capacitance, much in the same way that the twists in your mic and data cables does. Oddly, over-overing your cables will destroy that capacitance which is why we over-under them. The twists, especially in data, are remarkably important to the quality of the end signal. EVERY TIME you over-over your cable, and then pull it straight, you're changing that twist, ergo that capacitance.
> Ever wonder how those multi cables and Edison cords that start life out straight end up looking like an old Ma Bell handset cord? Mistreatment, via over-overing them and pulling them out straight. Over-over introduces a twist into the cable; over-under does the same, but then unwinds that twist every other turn.
> Over over clockwise is a leftover from the days of twisted hemp and manila. It's so you don't unlay a rope. If you're an anachronism on the deck, continue as you have been.
> Today's modern technician is much more than a deck-hand hired as beef, he knows what the cables do, how they do it, an HOW TO KEEP THEM DOING THAT. Unless a cable is going to go on a reel, or maybe into a box and from the box straight into the air, the best way to preserve that cable is to over-under it.
> ...


The end result is no matter the best thing or how much you know, if it's somebody elses cable wrap it according to their direction. I work with one sound/light company that absolutely flips if you over/under anything of theirs. 
What drives me crazy is where you have to temp coil cable that is still attached, buried or still in the air and you are neatening and they start at the end of the cable and works to the trapped end. It puts all kinds of wierd kinks in it. Start from the trapped end and coil to the end of the cable, it rolls the twist out the end of the cable.


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## Psyd (Feb 12, 2011)

mstaylor said:


> The end result is no matter the best thing or how much you know, if it's somebody elses cable wrap it according to their direction.


 
My answer to "how should *x* cable be coiled is always, "However the cable's owner asks you do do it."
If the cable's owner want to destroy his cables because he doesn't know any better, that is his prerogative. I've described the advantages and disadvantages on straight coiling vs over-under, you get to decide what you what to do with your cables.
OTOH, if you show up on my deck, you had better be able to over-under, make the ends on the outside when you're done, and tie a **** decent knot in the tie line when your done with that. If you cannot do those things, you're not allowed to call yourself a stagehand, and you're ****e well not allowed to call yourself aspecialized stagehand, like a sound person, or an electrician.


mstaylor said:


> It puts all kinds of wierd kinks in it.


 
One of the advantages of over-under is this does not happen. Every 'over' puts a twist in the cable, every 'under' takes it back. Grab a cable at arms length. Have a buddy grab it on the middle of that span, and twist the cable toward you along it's radius. As he does that, relax the cable, and it will form two loops, one either side of where your buddy is applying the twist. That is basically what you're doing with over-under.
Pass either of the ends through that, though, and you get a knot.
Stagehand school, day one, knot-tying: Make a loop, pass an end through the loop, VIOLA, half-hitch. Make a lotta loops, pass the end through them, VIOLA, lotta knots. It ain't rocket surgery.


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## MNicolai (Feb 12, 2011)

Psyd said:


> Stagehand school, day one, knot-tying: Make a loop, pass an end through the loop, VIOLA, half-hitch. Make a lotta loops, pass the end through them, VIOLA, lotta knots. It ain't rocket surgery.



My personal favorite knot used only in desperate situations is the boy scout knot. The boy scout knot is just tying one knot on top of another knot on top of another knot until you end up with a flustercluck of a knot that is a pain to untie and may or may not have any actual structural integrity to it.


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## mstaylor (Feb 12, 2011)

Psyd said:


> My answer to "how should *x* cable be coiled is always, "However the cable's owner asks you do do it."
> If the cable's owner want to destroy his cables because he doesn't know any better, that is his prerogative. I've described the advantages and disadvantages on straight coiling vs over-under, you get to decide what you what to do with your cables.
> OTOH, if you show up on my deck, you had better be able to over-under, make the ends on the outside when you're done, and tie a **** decent knot in the tie line when your done with that. If you cannot do those things, you're not allowed to call yourself a stagehand, and you're ****e well not allowed to call yourself aspecialized stagehand, like a sound person, or an electrician.
> 
> ...


I agree 100%, I certainly wasn't saying you weren't correct, just that you need to follow the owner's instructions. When it's yours, do it however you prefer. I assure you I can wrap any method they prefer and can tie it however they prefer. 
Knot tieing has a special place for me. I am a rigger and I am a merit badge counseler for the Boy Scouts. I have been teaching knots for years. My one son is an Eagle Scout and the other a Sgt in ROTC and both rig for me. When my wife married me, I taught her how to wrap cable and she is better than many hands. Any of my guys that can't wrap properly are pushers, carps or loaders until they do know.


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## erosing (Feb 12, 2011)

I over-under by default and listen to what the cable is telling me, if it wants a double under or a double over that's fine, I don't like to fight the cable. Cable that has been fought into submission has a tendency to be ugly, bulky, it kinks, and it knots, even if you do everything correctly.

As said though, if it's your cable, I'll do what you want.


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## mstaylor (Feb 12, 2011)

WooferHound said:


> If you make something Idiot Proof, then they will make a Better Idiot . . .


It is hard to idiot proof something, they are too persistant.

> My personal favorite knot used only in desperate situations is the boy scout knot. The boy scout knot is just tying one knot on top of another knot on top of another knot until you end up with a flustercluck of a knot that is a pain to untie and may or may not have any actual structural integrity to it.


I don't know about the scouts in your area but the ones I taught could tie knots and fold flags.  They learned a minumum of seven knots including bowlines, cloves and at least a taught line hitch. Most could tie a Swiss seat. 
One of my favorite sayings about knots is,"If you can't tie a knot, tie a lot!"


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## porkchop (Feb 13, 2011)

Another advantage to over-under'ing cable is that it makes "trained" cable more left hand friendly. I end up switching from right handed to left handed and back all the time and most of our cables are 12 years old and very very used to twisting a certain way, but the twist-untwist that comes from the over-under makes it so I don't have to fight the cable.


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