# Reasonable lead time for riders



## JLNorthGA (Feb 25, 2013)

We're all volunteers - so I have to be polite - even when I want to yell.
Ideally the tech riders should be part of the contract - that isn't happening for rentals for sure - it is not really happening for some of the visiting acts.

Case in point - I got the tech rider for a Flamenco dance group on Friday for a performance 10 days later (on a Wednesday). Fortunately the sound guy was able to secure a babysitter. I still have to find time to set the lights.

I don't have tech information for the next three performances that are coming in - four musicians, a puppeteer and a jazz band. 

If all they want is a general wash for lights - I'm usually okay. If they want other things like a blue wash, red wash or whatever - then I've got to spend more time setting the lights. Fortunately our sound guy is underemployed - but he does have to coordinate care for his two young ones. He does need some lead time also.

When should I start putting pressure on the rental coordinator and the people who book the visiting acts?? The drama portion is under control - the directors typcially have their requests in well ahead of time.


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## Footer (Feb 25, 2013)

Two things here...

First, a rider is exactly that... a rider on a contract. Around here, if it is not agreed to in the rider you are not getting it. We (theoretically) budget shows based on the needs of the rider. Of course things change from the time a contract is put out to the time the show actually hits the road. We make small edits, but if a show goes from a bus and trailer to 2 tractor trailers... we have a problem. Push for the rider w/ labor needs. It sounds like to me the acts you are booking probably don't have a rider. So, that being said you need to know your crew minimums to open the room. That should then be figured into every event. If you are not getting word of the events early enough, then that is another issue all together. In my world we have a shared calendar (on sharepoint) that everything works off of (we call it the eggtimer, yes, we think we are funny too). Any even that we think might happen gets a hold put on the calendar. Holds can go on a year or two in advance. When we have a contract the hold gets taken off. It at least gives us a way to plan. Based on the show we can then rough in labor. Two weeks or so out we do a final advance with the road co. and set call times and schedule labor. Sounds like you really need to work on the communication part of things. The people booking the the people who make the show happen need to be tied together. 

Now, on another front it sounds like you are making your job much harder then it should be. If you are doing several events in a week there is no point in re-inventing the wheel for each event. It is time for you to establish a good rep plot consisting of a few backlight systems, a few sidelight systems, a toplight system, a few frontlight systems, and some well placed re-focusable specials. Select some good colors, and go with it. Keep a good focus on everything. Have everything programmed into your console on subs. Mrs. Footer, who is our lighting director, does just about anything possible to protect her rep plot and her rep focuses. In the last 4 years we have re-hung exactly once. In the larger room we re-color pretty regularly for road LD's but the fixtures stay where they are pointed with the exception of about 30 specials. In our smaller space, the focus and color NEVER change. 

So, get yourself into a rep situation. Put your foot down and require at least a month lead time to get crew scheduled... if that is the time you need to ensure things get staffed then that is what it is.


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## museav (Feb 25, 2013)

I agree with Kyle, rather than leaving it open ended be proactive and define a default. Get the people handling the contracts to include the related information in whatever they provide before signing a contract with the understanding that if nothing else is defined and agreed to at the time the contract is signed then those standard provisions are what will be provided/available.


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## len (Feb 25, 2013)

You're asking how much you should give. The questions should be: 
a) Why the riders aren't included with the contract,
b) why you're allowing late notice,
c) if you're not going to demand any riders be included with the contract, how much lead time you need.

If you need 3 weeks, maybe someone needs to start hammering the promoter or whomever about that 4 - 6 weeks in advance. It may be possible to just tell these people that since the rider wasn't part of the contract then you won't do it, but that could lead to lost business, which is not good either.


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## venuetech (Feb 25, 2013)

JLNorthGA said:


> We're all volunteers - so I have to be polite - even when I want to yell.
> 
> Fortunately our sound guy is underemployed - but he does have to coordinate care for his two young ones. He does need some lead time also.



volunteers are great but in my mind but they do need to pay the babysitter, buy gas to get to the gig, get a quick bite to eat before the performance.. feed the kids... the rental coordinator should be made aware of these things and not take volunteers for granted. I like working with volunteers but if they have a conflict that pays the bills, it becomes a no brainier. sounds like the folks you have helping out with drama productions are being asked to volunteer for rentals. rentals should pay their own way and not rely on volunteer staff. just my humble opinion


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## cpf (Feb 25, 2013)

Well, I'd say you should be getting the contact details of the group coming in as soon as the contract is signed*, so you can email them up the same day asking what they'll be wanting. Assuming your rentals aren't themselves being arranged just days before a show (sigh...) this gives you time to get their initial response back, give them an estimate of costs/labour/feasibility/whatever, and come to an agreement over exactly what will be happening. This is more or less what I've done successfully for hundreds of events - booking manager susses out general technical requirements from renter (generally they don't have a rider), and if it's anything beyond "mic and some lights," forwards that email conversation to me so I can work out the details directly with the user. Even in cases like yours with not enough lead time, having the communications channel already open is a great aid in avoiding disappointment, disagreements and general strife on the day-of.

So: talk to your rental person ASAP and tell them the problems you're having, and how easily they could be avoided. If they aren't taking it seriously, mention how this could easily result in fewer rentals, that should perk them up.

*please note the post below, depending on how your fee structure and finances are set up.


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## SteveB (Feb 25, 2013)

cpf said:


> Well, I'd say you should be getting the contact details of the group coming in as soon as the contract is signed,p.



Actually, you should be getting it BEFORE it's signed, unless the representative signing has a really, really good handle on how much it's going to cost - I.E. labor, time, extra gear, perishables, etc...

Our PM gets the rider upwards of a year in advance, when our in-house producer is contemplating certain events and setting the season. They always run the riders past the PM before signing so as to potentially negotiate certain things that we either know are excessive or not needed, or not readily available and will cost to get.

For rentals, the PM and GM will sit with the producer/promoter and hash out the event and specifics, then the producer/promoter gets an estimate of the expenses. That may take place typically a month to 2 weeks prior, but typically no later. 

No point in signing a contract that's going to cost more then ticket sales will generate and the rider drives the expenses.


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## JLNorthGA (Feb 26, 2013)

Footer said:


> Two things here...
> 
> Now, on another front it sounds like you are making your job much harder then it should be. If you are doing several events in a week there is no point in re-inventing the wheel for each event. It is time for you to establish a good rep plot consisting of a few backlight systems, a few sidelight systems, a toplight system, a few frontlight systems, and some well placed re-focusable specials. Select some good colors, and go with it. Keep a good focus on everything. Have everything programmed into your console on subs. Mrs. Footer, who is our lighting director, does just about anything possible to protect her rep plot and her rep focuses. In the last 4 years we have re-hung exactly once. In the larger room we re-color pretty regularly for road LD's but the fixtures stay where they are pointed with the exception of about 30 specials. In our smaller space, the focus and color NEVER change.
> 
> So, get yourself into a rep situation. Put your foot down and require at least a month lead time to get crew scheduled... if that is the time you need to ensure things get staffed then that is what it is.



Would that I had the lights for a rep situation. I've got 55 active circuits - so that isn't a problem. I've only got 12 Fresnels above the stage. Ideally I'd like about 10 more. I've been given 8 PAR cans - so I may start using those after I get some clamps and some stage pin to Edison adapters. The FOH lights are reasonably okay - I've got 32 circuits on the catwalk and about 28 instruments up there. I've got the apron lights programmed for a rep situation - but I do have to re-aim them for plays.


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## sk8rsdad (Feb 26, 2013)

Even with few instruments you can still establish a rep plot. It just means that the load out of an other-than-rep show includes restoring the rig to the rep plot. The advantage is knowing exactly what you have to work with for those one-off rentals and having a library of canned stage looks to draw upon. It has taken a number of years to get to the point where this is a habit in my venue but the reduction in stress for those one day rentals is worth a little extra effort after a show closes.


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## stephanie (Mar 4, 2013)

I run what is basically a road house and I try to start communicating with the tour (*I* initiate the conversation via email) about two weeks out.(yes I usually have seen something that resembles a rider the spring before they come in) I've had some tours that didn't contact me till 5 days before and some that have contacted me for the first time three months out. All that said, I have information on a tour, usually no later than a month out. SOME sort of rider has been sent to me. 
I agree with the above advice: be proactive. Communicate and get a good rep plot. In addition to that, I would say send the show your rep plot, your house line set, house minimums for labor, etc: in other words, put together a tech packet of what you have in there and have our contract manager send it out when he/she books the act.
Lighting: I can't agree with the above more: give yourself a 3-4 color wash that stays in the air. A couple of high angle sides (you can use these for break ups on jazz shows and kiddie dance shows)
When you are talking about a rental with companies that expect me to design their show for them(for instance, I have two months of back to back dance shows and graduations in the spring) I keep the same plot in the air and change colors if I get bored. 
Sound: again, nothing beats being proactive and sending them what you have in house. Send THEM what you have: what kind of console, it's location, number of inputs, mixes, mics, etc. 
Be aware that many show have someone who represents them who can be called to send you information or SOMETIMES the rider is available online.
FINALLY, this is the last ditch effort way I usually get the attention of an unresponsive tour manager: "If I do not hear from you by XX time" (usually 5 days out) your show will, by necessity, be a WYSIWYG. I say it in prettier language but you get the picture. make the effort and then put the onus on them. Have a paper trail(electronic) and be ready for whatever day of and INCLUDE YOUR CONTRACT MANAGER in the communication. 
If you have other questions feel free to PM me.


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## neotrotsky (Mar 14, 2013)

Tons of great stuff already mentioned, but I have something else to throw into the ring that we use at the University owned venue I TD at:

We have A LOT of private and non-professional rentals at our venue to keep the lights on in between the union and "co-production" shows. Most of these rentals are of the corporate nature, and we even have weddings (simply because we make a killing on the rental!). This means that they have no idea of what a rider is or why you need it. In order to alleviate this issue, I have drawn up a mini-rider packet for renters. It's a rider-for-dummies with all fields spelled out and a full list of all of our equipment. On the back, there is a diagram of the stage, dimensions and all the other bits one would expect. And there are disclaimers EVERYWHERE on the sheet. It looks a lot like a U-Haul rental sheet... and that was the idea. All they have to do is draw squiggly lines, tell us what kind of "look" they want and tick off the boxes of what they need. This is sent out the moment the contract is signed and it is a term of the contract that it is returned ASAP.

Of coruse, it never is.

Then our techs call a month out, and are required to have a locked down rider and plot by no later than 2 weeks out. Of course, my director bends over backwards if that doesn't happen for the client (in fact, I'm looking at a show tomorrow for 250 people that didn't even get a meeting until 2 days before. I never got a rider. My director simply said "make it happen" and gave me a blank check to schedule crew). We also keep a house plot hung, and if we do not get clear definition of lighting, it's WYSIWYG. But, we try to keep it as grammar-school simple as possible and leave no stone unturned to hand-hold the client through the entire show production process. It's irritating and pedantic, but it's what we have to do. It makes the pro and union shows a dream to work!


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## TheaterEd (Mar 14, 2013)

neotrotsky said:


> In order to alleviate this issue, I have drawn up a mini-rider packet for renters. It's a rider-for-dummies with all fields spelled out and a full list of all of our equipment. On the back, there is a diagram of the stage, dimensions and all the other bits one would expect. And there are disclaimers EVERYWHERE on the sheet. It looks a lot like a U-Haul rental sheet... and that was the idea.



You don't by chance have permission to share a digital copy of that rider do you?


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## neotrotsky (Mar 14, 2013)

Shoot me an email and I can send it to you. It's not copywritten and it's the generic setup form we send out to every renter or client, so I don't see any reason why I can't send you a copy


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## SteveB (Mar 14, 2013)

neotrotsky said:


> I have drawn up a mini-rider packet for renters.



Nitpicking.

I have never heard anyone call this a "rider". I have always assumed that term refers to what the Artist (loose use of that term) is sending the Venue. Not the other way around. 

We use something similar and refer to it as our Production Questionnaire, primarily for events, as you describe, that would otherwise not be sending you a rider. As in they have no clue that they need to provide one. Graduations, Meetings, Dance Recitals, etc... The PQ goes hand-hand with our web based Technical Information Package that is the all inclusive bible of what's available, what's not, where we are, etc...


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## len (Mar 14, 2013)

I agree. A rider is what the visiting artist requires (google Iggy Pop rider for the most humorous example). I don't know what the venue would call their "stock" rules, info, etc., but venue specifications, technical specifications, parameters, "rep" specs, etc., would make sense.


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## derekleffew (Mar 14, 2013)

len said:


> ... I don't know what the venue would call their "stock" rules, info, etc., but ...


"TekFax". NOT! 

Venue Tech Info Packet - ControlBooth
.


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## SteveB (Mar 14, 2013)

derekleffew said:


> "TekFax". NOT!
> 
> Venue Tech Info Packet - ControlBooth
> .



Yeah, I complained and the web guy FINALLY changed it.


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## DrPinto (Mar 14, 2013)

derekleffew said:


> "TekFax". NOT!
> 
> Venue Tech Info Packet - ControlBooth
> .



Most of the links in the wiki are dead.


If you want to check out a very professional tech packet, here are links to The Bushnell up in CT. You may get some ideas, especially from the rental questionnaire:

Mortensen Hall tech packet:
http://www.bushnell.org/download.cgi?id=55198

Belding Theater tech packet:
http://www.bushnell.org/download.cgi?id=55199

The rental questionnaire:
http://www.bushnell.org/download.cgi?id=27000

Area information:
http://www.bushnell.org/download.cgi?id=55197


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## derekleffew (Mar 15, 2013)

DrPinto said:


> Most of the links in the wiki are dead. ...


I'm sure no one (especially me) would be offended if someone/anyone were to take it upon him/herself to edit/update/correct the COLLABORATIVE article. Dr.P's links would be a great start.


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