# Getting a scissor lift onto a stage



## Bubby4j (May 26, 2013)

We have a poorly designed stage at church, in that it's impossible to reach the things above it (lights, projector screens) without us renting a lift that sits in front of the stage and extends to over the stage, even then there's parts we can't reach.

We already have a scissor lift, but no way of using it on the stage because it's almost 5' above the ground and there are no ramps.

What I'm thinking about, assuming that our stage is capable of bearing the load of our lift, is building some kind of a portable ramp to drive the scissors lift up onto the stage.

I've calculated from the maximum grade the lift can safely drive on retracted, and the height of the stage, that the ramp would have to be about 20 feet long.

How can I build a fairly portable ramp like that? Would it even be possible? It'd need to be able to support the lift's (probably) weight of 1-2 tons. (not completely sure on the model of our lift, I'd need to check)

I've googled and all the ramps I've found for cars only end up going 1' above the floor.


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## FMEng (May 26, 2013)

Bubby4j said:


> .What I'm thinking about, assuming that our stage is capable of bearing the load of our lift, is building some kind of a portable ramp to drive the scissors lift up onto the stage.



It seems to me that the load capability of the stage is what you need to determine first. You are dealing with something involving life safety so this is beyond wild guesses and napkin sketches. You need to consult a licensed structural engineer. He/she could also assist with a ramp design if it is determined that the idea is safe to begin with. Otherwise, the situation may call for scaffolding erected by professionals.


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## Bubby4j (May 26, 2013)

FMEng said:


> It seems to me that the load capability of the stage is what you need to determine first. You are dealing with something involving life safety so this is beyond wild guesses and napkin sketches. You need to consult a licensed structural engineer. He/she could also assist with a ramp design if it is determined that the idea is safe to begin with. Otherwise, the situation may call for scaffolding erected by professionals.



I'm well aware that I'd need to do all of that to make it safe, but before I do anything like that I just wanted to know if it's even possible to build a portable ramp that can handle this much weight, and if there's any premade solutions available.

After I'm aware of what's available in the market I'll get someone to come and look at the stage.


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## MNicolai (May 26, 2013)

Have you looked at a one-man push around lift you can park permanently on stage or at least can get onto and off of the stage easier than a scissor lift?


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## Bubby4j (May 26, 2013)

MNicolai said:


> Have you looked at a one-man push around lift you can park permanently on stage or at least can get onto and off of the stage easier than a scissor lift?



I've not, because I've thought that a ramp would be cheaper than buying (even used) another lift (assuming the stage can handle the weight of a full sized scissor lift)


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## raymor (May 26, 2013)

Although I can't give any specific help, maybe this will give you some ideas or spark a new solution in your mind:


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## Bubby4j (May 26, 2013)

raymor said:


> Although I can't give any specific help, maybe this will give you some ideas or spark a new solution in your mind:




It's just too bad that scissor lifts don't have buckets or treads.


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## mstaylor (May 26, 2013)

Anything can be built, properly engineering it is another thing. Another option is to fork it up. Don't try anything without knowing the estate capacity first. You may be able to use a one man lift rental and a regular truck ramp.

Sent from my C771 using Tapatalk 2


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## raymor (May 26, 2013)

> It's just too bad that scissor lifts don't have buckets


Who says you can't add a similar arm to a scissor lift? It might be easier than a 20 foot ramp? 

If there was just a steel pipe fastened to the platform, sticking out onto the stage, would the "down" function of the lift have enough power to lift that end?






Again, the point being thinking outside the box - the above is quite obviously not a proper diagram of a proper way to do it. It's just there to try to spark some other, better, idea.


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## raymor (May 26, 2013)

Speaking of doing it the wrong way, this thought came to my mind and I thought it was funny:


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## Amiers (May 26, 2013)

Lol spark an idea, more like get a laugh. Anyways, I don't know what the budget is but after a couple minutes of looking at a portable ramp I don't think you will find one that can hold a 2 ton lift and be portable. I think you should look into a lift table. Obviously none of these will work for you as the ones with wheels don't meet the specs but I am sure you could find a company out there that can custom make you a portable lift table with the ability to lift ~2 tons and have wheels. 

Lift Tables


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## Footer (May 26, 2013)

A few I beams and a few legs with some cross members could easily do this. It ain't going to be fun to setup, but its doable. Personally, I would buy a genie lift and flip it up onto the stage. If you had the points in the sky you could fly it, most scissors lifts have lift points. The forklift option mentioned before is also an easy way to do this. 

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk HD


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## venuetech (May 26, 2013)

you could set up a box crib lift and just jack it up 4 to 6" at a time

or use cribbing to support your ramp at its midpoint. This is not something you would want to do on a weekly schedule, but if you only need it once every 6 months or so.


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## len (May 26, 2013)

Or this could happen https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bmHaydxMYM


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## venuetech (May 26, 2013)

There are numerous things that can go wrong with this. IMHO unless your stage is a poured concrete slab you should be looking for a different solution. Even if the stage can support the lift there may be a lot of flex. A small amount of flex is ok when you are at floor level but when you get the lift to working height that same amount of flex is amplified and may become unsafe.


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## MPowers (May 26, 2013)

This type of situation is not restricted to small or low budget venues. There is a multi million dollar Casino here where we do an annual rigging inspection. The stage requires a 32' lift to perform the inspection, but the elevator lift to the stage level can only fit a 26' scissors lift. Although a one person, 36' lift can fit on the elevator, the inspection includes three package hoists with housings that are too long to reach entirely from a single position. The result is we rent a 36' scissors lift and a fork lift that can lift it up onto the stage, just for the inspection. FWIW, this is a classic example of a facility designed by an architect without a consultant. Any competent consultant would have seen that the rigging would require a lift to perform maintenance and inspection and that there must be a way to get that lift to the stage. 

That is not to say that every project with a consultant will be perfect. I was involved in a project in the early 80's that had a world famous consultant, but was a functional failure. The problem was that the end user told the architect to hire a consultant and the consultant was a client of the architect and not the end user. The end user asked for a "concert Hall" not knowing that what they wanted was a theatrical road house. The architect proceeded to design just that, the world famous consultant did not go to the end user to investigate the real need. The result was 5 of the first year's bookings had to be canceled as the facility could not accommodate their needs. After $10,000,000 of change and alteration, the facility was able to house most of the events they wanted to book. Lots more to this story but that's for another time.


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## JD (May 27, 2013)

I am going to echo the concerns about the stage. (getting it up there is not a problem.) These lifts are designed to be heavy to begin with. After all, the heavier the base, the more stable it is. What good is trying to get it up there if the stage collapses underneath the weight. 

Back when I worked construction as a teen (many many moons ago), we somehow ran into getting heavy supplies up on something all the time without a lift. (It's called "poor boss planning.") The answer was always the same, a stack of railroad ties, or other heavy lumber (that, we always seemed to have a good supply of), and an 12 inch car jack. Lift one side of the load, slip a tie under it, lift the other side, slip one under, add two more to box it out and repeat. Once you got to the right height, you would deck it out with a series of ties and be on your way.

OSHA approved? I doubt it !!!


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## StNic54 (May 29, 2013)

Is this something that a tall ladder can't handle? I'd research a good little giant ladder - I know you can get 25' with those. I haven't seen any mention of height requirements, and I'm assuming what's above the stage is dead-hung. I just think that this project is unreachable on any church budget, and going up a ramp with a scissor lift is tough because they aren't always the best at keeping traction or torque on angles.


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## FatherMurphy (May 29, 2013)

A number of thoughts as I read the above - the first question is how high do you need to reach on a regular basis? A tall stepladder or push-around basket lift could easily be the answer to your problem. Folding step ladders that are commonly available top out around 12', giving a working height of about 16' above the stage floor, and are easily manageable by one person. Taller ladders exist, but are more and more expensive, more and more awkward to maneuver, and fall safety becomes a concern. Push-around basket lifts, with outriggers, can reach up to 40-45' heights (depending on the model you buy), and can be bought new in the $10,000-$15,000 range. 15' to 20' heights are available in some models without needing outriggers, although those are usually heavier due to the ballast they put in the bases. The cost of a basket lift might seem expensive, but if you compare it to what you've been spending to rent a boom lift, it might pay for itself fairly quickly, plus the convenience factor of being in-house.

The load capacity of the stage floor is the first number you need to find, to make sure it can hold whatever lift you place on the stage. A concrete slab on solid fill will be nearly unlimited, a wooden deck built by volunteers 20 years ago would be considerably less able to hold a big lift. I've been in some renovation projects recently where the trap room under the stage was nearly filled with cribbing to allow the use of construction-sized lifts on stage.

I don't recall any commercially available ramps that would have enough of a weight rating to support the weight of a scissors lift over the span that would be required, even with mid-span cribbing. A bigger problem would be making it long enough to allow the lift to go from the ramp to the high side - the top end of the ramp will run the risk of touching the middle of the bottom of the frame as the wheels go over the angle. If you were to high-center the lift at the top of the ramp, you would suddenly be having a very bad day. After considering building a custom ramp of sufficient size and length and strength, and the people power to set it up and tear it down each use, and you might find yourself looking at the push-around baskets a lot closer.

BTW, regarding the self-loading arm suggestion, most lifts only have a release valve opening for their 'down' motion, allowing the fluid to flow from the cylinder back to the reservoir, with gravity providing the motive force. They don't have a powered 'down' capability, so they couldn't raise their own base.


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## TheaterEd (May 29, 2013)

JD said:


> I am going to echo the concerns about the stage. (getting it up there is not a problem.) These lifts are designed to be heavy to begin with. After all, the heavier the base, the more stable it is. What good is trying to get it up there if the stage collapses underneath the weight.
> 
> Back when I worked construction as a teen (many many moons ago), we somehow ran into getting heavy supplies up on something all the time without a lift. (It's called "poor boss planning.") The answer was always the same, a stack of railroad ties, or other heavy lumber (that, we always seemed to have a good supply of), and an 12 inch car jack. Lift one side of the load, slip a tie under it, lift the other side, slip one under, add two more to box it out and repeat. Once you got to the right height, you would deck it out with a series of ties and be on your way.
> 
> OSHA approved? I doubt it !!!



I saw an episode of worlds toughest fixes that used this technique to lift something that was much heavier. I can't remember which episode off hand, but I'll check netflix when I get home.


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## PeteEngel (May 29, 2013)

Scissor lifts do work well for certain situations. for extended reach, you may want to consider changing lifts to something a bit more articulated. I used a particular variant at a show that worked GREAT, but it was big. I'm not sure what sizes they have to fit your facility but it may be worth checking out...

Telescopic Booms - Genie


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## techieman33 (May 29, 2013)

PeteEngel said:


> Scissor lifts do work well for certain situations. for extended reach, you may want to consider changing lifts to something a bit more articulated. I used a particular variant at a show that worked GREAT, but it was big. I'm not sure what sizes they have to fit your facility but it may be worth checking out...
> 
> Telescopic Booms - Genie



With the lightest one of those weighing over 12,000lbs I doubt many stage floors would be able to support that much weight.


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## PeteEngel (May 29, 2013)

Certainly not your average temporary stage, but the idea behind the zoom boom is not to have to get on stage...and yeah, they are pretty heavy. Our stage was pretty butch and we had 2 large lifts and a scissor lift as well, all on stage at the same time, but it was designed to support a LOT of weight.


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## LDwiggs30 (May 29, 2013)

There are a number of safety risks involved here. For starters, a JLG 1930 (one of the smallest scissors available) weight almost 5,000 pounds. Not sure how your stage is built, but that is a serious load to put on a stage. Second, if you build a rig to get a lift onto a stage that's not certified by an engineer and it fails, everyone is out of a job. Best best would be to rent a single-man push lift (less than 1,000 lb.) and use a car/atv ramp to push it onto the stage. I had to get one into a tent with a 5' deck once and we pushed it onto a front-end loader and tossed it up there. Also the lift gate of a box truck can get 1,500+ pounds off the ground if you want to go that route. You can also lever those lifts just by laying them backwards as you pull the base up with some motors or a counterweight system. As Pete said, boom lifts are always a great time-saver when it comes to getting up high while something on the ground is in your way .


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## MPowers (May 29, 2013)

I'm not quite sure what your concern is about. Scissors lifts on stages are a very common practice. In fact every stage I've worked on the last several years, I've used 24 to 50 foot scissors lifts to install, inspect and maintain rigging systems. Much of the work I do would be impossible without a scissors lift. Older stages and stages over a trap room can be of concern but stages are commonly designed for up to 150 psf. Would a 5,000 pound lift fall through your 150 psf stage??? PSF can be deceptive when figuring a load. Loads actually spread out so a lift with a 3' x 8' wheel base is actually distributing it's load over an area roughly 6'x 12'. 6x12 = 72 sq ft. 5,000 pounds/72 = 65 psf. That's a load almost any stage should be able to handle. That is not to say that one should not always check first if you don't know the capacity of your floor, but it might surprise you. Floor structure can also figure into the equation as some floor structures might not spread out the load as efficiently and be susceptible to localized point loads such as directly under a lift wheel. Always check first but don't be surprised if your old stage can handle a scissors lift.


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## Footer (May 30, 2013)

MPowers said:


> I'm not quite sure what your concern is about. Scissors lifts on stages are a very common practice. In fact every stage I've worked on the last several years, I've used 24 to 50 foot scissors lifts to install, inspect and maintain rigging systems. Much of the work I do would be impossible without a scissors lift. Older stages and stages over a trap room can be of concern but stages are commonly designed for up to 150 psf. Would a 5,000 pound lift fall through your 150 psf stage??? PSF can be deceptive when figuring a load. Loads actually spread out so a lift with a 3' x 8' wheel base is actually distributing it's load over an area roughly 6'x 12'. 6x12 = 72 sq ft. 5,000 pounds/72 = 65 psf. That's a load almost any stage should be able to handle. That is not to say that one should not always check first if you don't know the capacity of your floor, but it might surprise you. Floor structure can also figure into the equation as some floor structures might not spread out the load as efficiently and be susceptible to localized point loads such as directly under a lift wheel. Always check first but don't be surprised if your old stage can handle a scissors lift.



....Just watch out for those pesky floor pockets....


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## gshac audio and visual (Aug 18, 2017)

Bubby4j said:


> We have a poorly designed stage at church, in that it's impossible to reach the things above it (lights, projector screens) without us renting a lift that sits in front of the stage and extends to over the stage, even then there's parts we can't reach.
> 
> We already have a scissor lift, but no way of using it on the stage because it's almost 5' above the ground and there are no ramps.
> 
> ...



Hi, I'm having the same issue here. What was your outcome with this project?


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## Bubby4j (Aug 18, 2017)

gshac audio and visual said:


> Hi, I'm having the same issue here. What was your outcome with this project?



We've just ended up working around it. I think the best solution would be a small, relatively light lift, but we don't have the budget for that.

We did purchase a 20' a-frame ladder though, which lets us reach most of what we need.


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## gshac audio and visual (Aug 18, 2017)

Bubby4j said:


> We've just ended up working around it. I think the best solution would be a small, relatively light lift, but we don't have the budget for that.
> 
> We did purchase a 20' a-frame ladder though, which lets us reach most of what we need.



Ok cool. I've been looking at these ramps http://www.discountramps.com/aluminum-scissor-lift-ramps/p/05SLR/
Unfortunately, they only go about 24 inches high and they are crazy expensive.


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## Brentgi (Aug 22, 2017)

I still wouldn't put a lift on stage...


MPowers said:


> Scissors lifts on stages are a very common practice.



I've been in and around 'church' for a long time. The culture is typically "let's build it ourselves and save money." Unfortunately, this means that there is not a great deal of thought put into things like how much weight the stage can support. Although I've never seen a poorly constructed stage in a church, I have never seen a stage that I would trust with a lift unless it was poured concrete. Unfortunately, the big ladder is usually the way that it has to be done. Maybe we can start a campaign to stop getting churches to dead hang over the stage.


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## Chris Pflieger (Aug 22, 2017)

gshac audio and visual said:


> Hi, I'm having the same issue here. What was your outcome with this project?


This thread is older than me (forum time, that is), but I have the same exact issue. My solution was to rent scaffolding and hang movers.


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