# Ceiling Fan as windmill



## Smcl001 (Oct 27, 2009)

Working on a production of "The Wizard of Oz" and just got an email from my designer about adding a "Middle-America farm-style windmill" to the Kansas scenes and I just came across a ceiling fan unit that was never installed in the space. I was thinking with a little luan, hardware, and theatre magic I could convert it to a "farm-style windmill". 

Throw a dimmer on there and I could keep it _low_ for the opening and set it to _high_ with the tornado affect. 

good idea to peruse? maybe to much work then it's worth? any ideas or input is welcomed. I'm just spit balling here. Thanks!


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## Footer (Oct 27, 2009)

Smcl001 said:


> Working on a production of "The Wizard of Oz" and just got an email from my designer about adding a "Middle-America farm-style windmill" to the Kansas scenes and I just came across a ceiling fan unit that was never installed in the space. I was thinking with a little luan, hardware, and theatre magic I could convert it to a "farm-style windmill".
> 
> Throw a dimmer on there and I could keep it _low_ for the opening and set it to _high_ with the tornado affect.
> 
> good idea to peruse? maybe to much work then it's worth? any ideas or input is welcomed. I'm just spit balling here. Thanks!



All well and good.... except the dimmer thing. I have built some really big windmills and getting the blade to spin slow enough is a huge fight. Depending on the motor used, the dimmer might work, it might not. If its a variable speed fan, odds are it won't. It might work for long enough for you to test it, but won't work long after that. AC motors are not designed to work on variable power like DC motors. Added to that, you will have issues with starting it and keeping a consistent speed slow speed. The speed you will want to set it on to run will be different then the speed it will take to start it. 

I used a variable frequency drive to run this windmill and this motor. It allowed me to start it hard and then slow down to run at a consistant speed. 





They do sell motors that are very powerful and very slow. Google it.

Another option... which I have done before... use a screw gun. Gut the screw gun and set it slow. It will have enough power to spin the fan and has the benefit of being wireless. I did that for this production for our airplane prop. Because the piece flew it also took care of a cable pick issue.


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## dramatech (Oct 28, 2009)

I did the windmill in "Oklahoma", with the windshield wiper motor from a Mazda RX7. It had two speeds, and we ran a 12 volt motor off of a six volt battery. I used a dual channel garage door opener to activate it. It really wowed the audience, when it was stopped and started at different speeds, as the item was moved to different parts of the stage for different scenes. We sold it to another theatre, who in turn sold it again. Who knows!!!, it may still be touring from theatre to theatre,


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## Irish (Oct 28, 2009)

Something to keep in mind is that a ceiling fan is not balanced to run on it's side. Strap the thing to the edge of the table and let it run a bit before you try to put it up anywhere.


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## PHSaud (Mar 4, 2012)

*Ceiling fan with stage lighting system*

I plan to hook up a ceiling fan to the theatre's lighting system. A friend of mine helped wire up the ceiling fan to the three pin stage plug. He thinks I will need to write two cues to get the fan powered up and spinning. The first cue would be a time of zero at full, to provide the initial power the fan needs to 'amp up.' After a second or two the second cue would Follow or Hang (Ion console) with a set intensity to the desired rpm for the fans rotation. 

We are really using the fan vertically to spin foam core blades for a windmill in the musical 'Oklahoma.' Is my friends logic correct? Is there any other advice or warnings people have about this?


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## josh88 (Mar 4, 2012)

*Re: Ceiling fan with stage lighting system*


PHSaud said:


> I plan to hook up a ceiling fan to the theatre's lighting system. A friend of mine helped wire up the ceiling fan to the three pin stage plug. He thinks I will need to write two cues to get the fan powered up and spinning. The first cue would be a time of zero at full, to provide the initial power the fan needs to 'amp up.' After a second or two the second cue would Follow or Hang (Ion console) with a set intensity to the desired rpm for the fans rotation.
> 
> We are really using the fan vertically to spin foam core blades for a windmill in the musical 'Oklahoma.' Is my friends logic correct? Is there any other advice or warnings people have about this?




go back up and read footer's post about the motor. you'll probably burn up the motor in the process of testing it


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## DuckJordan (Mar 4, 2012)

*Re: Ceiling fan with stage lighting system*

good luck getting speed from intensity, Fans use a AC>DC transformer to spin the shaft (magnetic) so varying AC intensity won't help you but will probably burn out the motor. I'm guessing its a 3 speed fan? why not just set it, and have it either plugged into a standard edison or a relay pack. Dimming will not help your motor. I'll let others post links to the topics we've put into discussion about them.


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## BGW (Mar 4, 2012)

*Re: Ceiling fan with stage lighting system*

Yeah, you'll need to choose which winding offers the most ideal speed, and then plug it into a relay module. AC induction motors are controlled by the speed of the rotating field inside of them. You need a variable frequency drive to effectively control that field. I doubt you're going to want to shell out for a VFD. You could, however, use a universal motor (series-wound motor) to drive the blades of a windmill. You can plug a universal motor right into the dimmer, and you can control its speed that way as well. Most universal motors run tremendously fast, though. You'll either need to gear one down or go to a motor shop and buy a slower variant.


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## kicknargel (Mar 5, 2012)

*Re: Ceiling fan with stage lighting system*

So just curious--ceiling fans in their natural environment are often controlled by a "fan speed control" in the wall. I've poked around a little and manufacturers says things like "special circuity prevents burning out the motor." What do you suppose that circuitry does? I'd guess it has to do with providing enough voltage for startup, then turning it down to run speed. Can it control the speed by another method than variable voltage? Maybe the effects could be imitated by a series of cues as suggested. Or perhaps a fan speed control could be wired in line.

Still, you're going to have trouble making it go slow enough to be a windmill. And if you run it slower than designed you may burn it out due to insufficient cooling. I like the windshield wiper motor. Slow and strong. Or another gear motor (try Grainger).


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## Les (Mar 5, 2012)

*Re: Ceiling fan with stage lighting system*


PHSaud said:


> Is there any other advice or warnings people have about this?



Yes; watch out for fire 

Why not wire the fan to an actual fan speed control (like the ones from home improvement stores) and have someone control it from off stage? Sure, it won't be "to code", but neither is using a ceiling fan atop a windmill in the first place . 



At least if you use a separate control for the fan, the windmill can already be turning when the lights come up without having to worry about any cueing during a blackout to get the fan up to speed. The "low" setting may be too fast, but it would at least be safer and more predictable than a dimmer.

I'm not sure about this, but would a variac work?


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## BGW (Mar 5, 2012)

*Re: Ceiling fan with stage lighting system*

Good ideas, but unfortunately no. Variacs are great but they can't slow down induction motors. Most AC motors (including those in ceiling fans) cannot be controlled by voltage. Kicknargel, I'm not sure how the modern wall controls for fans work. The older ones just had a rotary switch that would change motor windings, but the new continuously variable speed controls may well be cheap VFDs. I had completely forgotten about those- it's probably the best option for you. As Les was suggesting, it might work really well to just have a stagehand control it.


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## kicknargel (Mar 5, 2012)

*Re: Ceiling fan with stage lighting system*

The cheapest variable frequency drive I see with a search is $321. Can the $20 fan speed controller really be the same technology?


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## headcrab (Mar 5, 2012)

*Re: Ceiling fan with stage lighting system*

GS1-10P2 Products

$99 for 1/4 HP VFD
But you still need a 3ph motor.

AFAIK the fan speed controls are merely phase control dimmers.


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## joeb (Mar 5, 2012)

*Re: Ceiling fan with stage lighting system*

I had a student build a windmill for a class project, and he used a rotisserie motor to spin the blades. It gave a nice slow rotation, was designed to work in a horizontal direction, and worked off standard voltage - no dimming needed. The only trick was grinding down a hex bolt to fit in the square drive of the motor.


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## Footer (Mar 5, 2012)

*Re: Ceiling fan with stage lighting system*

The other issue you are going to run into is ceiling fans are designed to be run horizontal, not vertical. Besides figuring out how to actually mount it, you are going to run into bearing issues. They don't really put good bearings in these things because they run with very little friction in normal day to day operation. When you flip it on its side you introduce a lot more friction.


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## joeb (Mar 5, 2012)

*Re: Ceiling fan with stage lighting system*

We used a ceiling fan mounted vertically with modified blades for a production of Urinetown, and it was an awful experience. In five years of doing shows where I currently am, it is probably the scenic element we have had the most trouble with. It will be replaced with an actual exhaust fan motor for the upcoming remount of the show. I would highly discourage trying to use a ceiling fan vertically. Just my two cents.


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## DrPinto (Mar 5, 2012)

*Re: Ceiling fan with stage lighting system*


joeb said:


> I had a student build a windmill for a class project, and he used a rotisserie motor to spin the blades. It gave a nice slow rotation, was designed to work in a horizontal direction, and worked off standard voltage - no dimming needed. The only trick was grinding down a hex bolt to fit in the square drive of the motor.



I like the rotisserie idea. If you can live with one speed, you can even get it at WalMart.

Mr. Bar-B-Q Rotisserie Heavy Duty Tool Kit - Walmart.com


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## Chris15 (Mar 6, 2012)

*Re: Ceiling fan with stage lighting system*

Most of the 3 position fan speed controllers I know of did so by switching different value capacitors in series with the supply to the fan motor...


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