# Whirlwind Cables?



## Anonymous067 (Aug 17, 2008)

Hi all.

I'm wondering, I know that whirlwind makes different lines of cables.
I'm budgeting about 35k for a personal portable sound system (32 channel board, 10 sys of wireless, 3 stereo amps (just for size comparison)).

I was PLANNING for all my XLR to XLR to just use Whirlwinds Economy series cables, 5 bucks for a ten footer.
Bad deal? Poor cable? Stop being a cheapo?

I've used worse cables at my church, these things have #$%^& connectors, the kind where you can see the screws, they always come loose, yeah, those type.

Are these cables bad for set up and tear down 3-5 times a week?

No, I'm not going to pay over a dollar a foot, so don't even suggest that.
Making cables isn't in the time picture, so also don't mention that.


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## len (Aug 17, 2008)

You might look at some whips, which can be found pre-made, but might suit your needs. I'll bet whirlwind makes whips that are less expensive and less time-consuming than running individual cables. Whirlwind / Insert Snakes Also, if you're investing in multiple wireless, you might look into a system where all the receivers are in a rack, and you only use one antenna system for them. Don't know what they're called, but I know Shure makes something. 

I'm sure Bill sells all of it, as well as other vendors.


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## BillESC (Aug 17, 2008)

In the under a buck a foot catagory, Audio Technica's ecomony mic cables are better than Whirlwind's Chinese imports. We sell a lot of both, about 200,000 feet per year. While I'll use the AT cables in our rental rigs, I won't use the Whirlwinds.

Mic antenna distribution systems are what you're thinking of Len. They are usually a one rack space 4 to 1 unit.


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## mbenonis (Aug 17, 2008)

What kind of wireless did you spec out?


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## Sony (Aug 17, 2008)

You're going to be spending $35,000 and you're gonna cheap out on XLR Cables?!?!?! I mean...I'd understand if you were spending maybe $2,000 or even $3,500, but $35k man? You couldn't devote $100 or even $200 to get some good Switchcraft or Neutrik cables? Christ man...you're getting a 32 channel board, 10 wireless mics and 3 amps yet you want cheap cables? Well...you get what you pay for man...just seems a bit ridiculous with that much money you are going to cheap out on the most basic supplies. Especially when you say they are going to be getting abused 3-5 times a week...don't expect them to last very long.

If you're really gonna cheap out on XLR's then I second BillESC, at least go for the Audio Technica cables.


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## avkid (Aug 18, 2008)

The words cheap and quality can go together.
SLMN


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## waynehoskins (Aug 18, 2008)

I avoid Whirlwind cable when I can. Every time you coil their cables wrong, or kink them, they remember. They never remember the countless times you coiled them right.

I prefer to build my own. Good cable and Neutrik or Switchcraft connectors (Switchcraft connectors, by the way, are the ones you greatly dislike with the setscrews; they're actually more expensive than the Neutriks and more rugged). I try to go with black Neutriks when I can. 8412 cable is nice. Prebuilt, my preference is to Rapco or Proco right now.

Hmm, we are talking about cable that's to be used between a microphone and a stage box, right? It just occurred to me that you might be talking about the cables tying things together at FOH, in which case I use squids when I can, especially in a portable situation; in an install, 8451 or 9451 is good.


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## derekleffew (Aug 18, 2008)

waynehoskins said:


> ... 8412 cable is nice. ... 8451 or 9451 is good.




waynehoskins, did you perhaps forget to add the word "Belden" before those model numbers?


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## waynehoskins (Aug 18, 2008)

derekleffew said:


> waynehoskins, did you perhaps forget to add the word "Belden" before those model numbers?


I sure did. I didn't remember not typing it. Yes, those are Belden model numbers, and most everybody else has a close cross.

But of course, it's unimportant since the original poster needs to have premade cables, though we really don't know quite what for yet, and it's quite possible he really needs a short fan-to-fan snake.


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## avare (Aug 18, 2008)

What are you basing your pricing on? I have found a rule of budgeting to have 5% for cables MINIMUM.

Andre


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## mixmaster (Aug 19, 2008)

+1 for buying good cables. You can have the best hardware in the world and it doesn't mean anything if the signal can't get from point A to point B. Cables are the most abused item in any rig (unless you count the monitor tech) and yet it's the first place people go to cut corners. I'll bet your going to put your amps in cases right? Your console? Why, for protection of course. Cheap cables don't offer any protection for the signals they are carrying. Your investment in good cables is more than the original cost too. You also have to figure if the trouble and embarrassment of a cable dying in mid show is worth it. I guarantee it's never the back up guitar mic cable that dies, it's always the lead singers mic cable, three bars into their most favorite tune. Too much of that stuff can lead to a bad reputation. And then you have to figure in the cost of your time to troubleshoot and repair the cable back at the shop. And if it's broken in the middle then you get to buy a new one, or just cut it in half and get two short cords. Speaking of short cords, 10 foot really isn't long enough. Think about this. If your singer is 6 foot tall, his mouth (and therefore a microphone) is about 5 feet off the ground. That means, with a 10 foot cord, you only have 5 feet left to get to your closest stage box. Usually the band isn't all clustered within 5 feet of a stage box or even a subsnake. I would recomend 25 foot or so with a couple of 50 foot runs for the few times you need to get just one mic clear across the stage.
As far as brands..... My 25 foot cables are Whirlwind Accusonic. I've got 30 or 40 of them, store them in a drawer in the drawer case and I can remember repairing 3 in the last 2 and a half years. That's reliable in my book.
My 50 and 100 foot cables are Cancare Star Quad. The don't get used as much but they haven't given me any problems-ever. (having said that, they will probably all be dead next time I need them)Both brands lay flat for show and coil well at the end of the night.
Matt


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## tech2000 (Aug 20, 2008)

avkid said:


> The words cheap and quality can go together.
> SLMN



In some rare occasions (I've definitely bought cheap just because it is cheap before, as I work for a school and some work pretty well.)
However, I would always try to buy cables that are NOT the cheapest find out there. Especially if I was budgeting 35k for the entire system. You could get a very decent system with decent cables for that price.


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## TimMiller (Aug 20, 2008)

Check out CBI also, they have some really good deals on cables. They are quality hand made here in the USA. I get my cables from them and have not had any problems. (do not buy the bottom line, i have heard some stories).


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## Chris15 (Aug 23, 2008)

Knowing the price of genuine XX connectors, I don't see how SLMN are making any money... That photo on the website it old, they are the XX v1.

Personally I dislike black connectors under most circumstances... they are WAY too easy to scratch etc and then they don't stay black for very long...

I wholeheartly agree with everyone else; if you can afford 10 systems of RF, why o why would you skimp on the cable. My employer, whom I choose not to publicly name, builds mic cable out of Canare star quad, Neutrik connectors. Nothing else will be willing used. There has been occasion that owing to Neutrik managing to blow up the machine that makes male XLRs, that we have used Amphenol, but they feel cheap and nasty and I dislike the strain relief... For patch cable, we still use Neutrik, but prefer Eurocable Bantam Patch cable - it is so flexible and so nice to work with... In the back of a rack, much of the time Starquad is actually a little stiff...

What's more fun is if the piece of copper that fails is one in the chain from console output to amplifiers. Then you not only lose the lead vocal, you lose everything... Good luck getting hired by that act again...

If you are looking at a system that tos and fros 5 times a week, then I'd be definitely looming as much as I could and looking to multipin it all as soon as I could afford to... The time savings pay off multipins fairly quickly.


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## Sony (Aug 23, 2008)

Putting cheap cables on a $35k system is like saying you're going to put Regular Unleaded gasoline in your brand new Ferrari or Porsche. Yea, it will work...but it wont be performing to it's full potential and you're most likely going to have problems down the road because of it. It's like you don't even care...


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## Anonymous067 (Aug 26, 2008)

Sorry people. I forgot I posted this thread.

A few clarifications. I know not to use 10 ft cables on stage. Ever. Things get moved, repositioned (without the techs knowledge), blah blah blah. ten footers are for rack to rack connections ONLY. Point taken, I shouldn't use these cheap cables. What is a a good quality cable that isn't the most expensive thing out there?

Model of my wireless isn't relevant, I know how to use antenna distribution, I don't need help with that.


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## mixmaster (Aug 26, 2008)

Blah067 said:


> Sorry people. I forgot I posted this thread.
> 
> A few clarifications. I know not to use 10 ft cables on stage. Ever. Things get moved, repositioned (without the techs knowledge), blah blah blah. ten footers are for rack to rack connections ONLY. Point taken, I shouldn't use these cheap cables. What is a a good quality cable that isn't the most expensive thing out there?
> 
> Model of my wireless isn't relevant, I know how to use antenna distribution, I don't need help with that.



If your rack to rack cables always patch the same, I would suggest building multipins. I recently made the conversion to multipin on my fx, dynamics, and drive racks and I'm glad I did. Patching the house is simpler, the end result is neater, and it's easier to pick up a couple of multipin cables than to untangle the mess of 10 foot mic cords that I used before. It also means that you can cover the back of the racks so no one can go messing with the patches inside.

I used Whirlwind 12 pair because I got a good deal on it, and got Amp CPC connectors (series 1) from Mouser. If I had it to do over again, I might find a different cable manufacture, because Whirlwind doesn't individually jacketed pairs. Otherwise, I saved a lot of time using multipins and saved a fair amount of money by building the cables myself.
Matt


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## Anonymous067 (Aug 26, 2008)

I don't feel comfortable making my own cables.

Multipin patches might be difficult as sometimes I have to switch wireless channels from channel to channel on a 32 channel board.


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## waynehoskins (Aug 26, 2008)

Blah067 said:


> I don't feel comfortable making my own cables.


Could've said that from the start, you know, rather than that you don't have the time to build your own. Those have two entirely different implications.


Blah067 said:


> Multipin patches might be difficult as sometimes I have to switch wireless channels from channel to channel on a 32 channel board.


I don't understand how a squid with a mult will make that hard.

On the ten-footer thing, I'd never say that you must never use a ten-footer on stage. I use them all the time at the church, but the things they're plugged into (like lead vocal into the subsnake right in front of him) don't move. But for most applications, especially festival, the smallest thing to use, especially on frontline, is 25 feet.


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## Anonymous067 (Aug 26, 2008)

Okay, I don't have time to make my own cables, nor do I have the skills, materials, or feel comfortable doing it. Did I cover all the basis?

When you have a small breakout on the end, and you need to move something from channel 2 all the way to 30, thats a 3-4 foot jump.
Usually if you pull two cables in the breakout opposite directions, I can spread 2 feet, max.


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## Sony (Aug 26, 2008)

then you're not using the right breakouts for your application...they make extra long breakouts 4-5 feet long or more. Anyways, if you want to buy good cables then I highly recommed Audio Technica or Pro-Co Sound. They are not expensive and come with rugged Neutrik connectors.


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## howlingwolf487 (Aug 26, 2008)

Blah067 said:


> When you have a small breakout on the end, and you need to move something from channel 2 all the way to 30, thats a 3-4 foot jump.
> Usually if you pull two cables in the breakout opposite directions, I can spread 2 feet, max.



Then you can cut the outside jacket back some and re-heatshrink it to the appropriate length (so long as the pairs are individually jacketed). That's what I did with the fanout for my rack.

The other option is to have the fanout and cable be separate so that you can keep the connections in the doghouse and just plug in the multipins to those and your rack panel. That would let you have the length you desire for repatching the console.


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## Anonymous067 (Aug 28, 2008)

So back to the main point. What are good, yet somewhat inexpensive XLR cables.

How much should I expect to pay for a 10, 25, and 50 foot cable?


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## Sony (Aug 28, 2008)

Blah067 said:


> So back to the main point. What are good, yet somewhat inexpensive XLR cables.
> 
> How much should I expect to pay for a 10, 25, and 50 foot cable?




Sony said:


> if you want to buy good cables then I highly recommed Audio Technica or Pro-Co Sound. They are not expensive and come with rugged Neutrik connectors.



Audio Technica and Pro-Co Sound make some really good cables and B&H Photo/Video has some really good prices. They aren't too expensive and the longer cables you get the cheaper they get per Foot. You may pay $15 for a 10' cable but 25' and 50' cables are only like $20 and $25 respectively.

XLR to XLR Cables | B&H Photo Video


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## Anonymous067 (Aug 28, 2008)

Are the middle line of Whirlwind Cables any good?
Like the Whirlwind standard series with accusonic+2 wire?

That price seems to be OKAY.
I do refuse to have anything audia-technia in my system however. Sorry to shoot that idea down. Pro-co stuff seems to be a bit expensive (at least based on the fullcompass.com catalog I have in front of me).

Umm...making cables can be as simple as soldering the end on a lead right?
I had considered making cables once before, but it appears it MIGHT be slightly cheaper. Where on the quality scale does custom-made cables fall into play with pre-made ones?

Neutrik XX or X series connectors and Belden 8412?


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## waynehoskins (Aug 28, 2008)

Now, I'll preface this by saying that I've been building and repairing cables for over half of my nearly 28 years of living, so your mileage may vary.

I inherently trust any cable that I've made far more than a premade one. Partly because I trust my soldering and prep and strain relief more than the economy lines that the Big Names are pushing out at billions a day. Partly because I don't use crap connectors except where it doesn't matter. Partly because I usually try to use good cable.

There are some people I trust to build cables and some I don't trust to build good cables.

Whether one you build is better or worse than a premade one is entirely dependent on which materials you both chose, and on your soldering ability.


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## Anonymous067 (Aug 28, 2008)

waynehoskins said:


> Partly because I don't use crap connectors except where it doesn't matter. Partly because I usually try to use good cable.



What cable and connectors would you use on a standard, used three to five times a week 25 foot XLR to XLR cable?


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## waynehoskins (Aug 28, 2008)

Neutrik X series connectors (black are nice) and cable like Belden's 8412 would be good. Lately I've ended up inheriting a few more 50-footers than I need, and they were decent cable, so I cut them up into short cables. I think they were Rapco or Proco or VTG. 

Gotham's GAC-2 cable is really nice (very flexible, and rugged enough for most things). I've got one still that I built over ten years ago. I want to build some more of those sometime, but their cable is hard to get in the States.

Belden 8402 with Switchraft A series conectors would be absolutely indestructible if you need that, but most of us don't. 8412 should suffice, and it's black too (8402 is brown).

Cable with a braided shield is better than one that's just spiral-wrapped, but it's also inherently less flexible. This is better for the shielding if it's prone to being beaten up. Tougher jackets and larger conductors are also good (8412 and 8402 are 20 AWG, I believe).

It's not so much to do with picking the best cable as it is not picking poorly-built cable. If it's decent, and you crank down the strain relief well (so it actually does something(!)), it should survive pretty well.

Another trick is to not strip the outer jacket back super far. With keeping everything clean in there, that means that even without strain relief, it's still almost impossible for the wires to short to each other if you twist the cable.

It's kind of like riding a bike. It takes a while to get the hang of it, but once you've got it, you've got it for good.


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## Sony (Aug 29, 2008)

It's pretty easy to make your own mic cables! Pin 1 is Shield and Pin 2 and 3 can be ether wire as long as you keep them matched at ether end. Both ends are wired the same, so Pin 1 is Shield and the Shield connectes to Pin 1 on the other end, Pin 2 always goes to Pin 2 and Pin 3 always goes to Pin 3. This is of course unless you want to reverse polarity but I doubt you're going to want to do that. If you know how to solder then it's a piece of cake...it's probably the simplest soldering job you can do. Takes me about 5 - 10 minutes per cable! waynehoskins also has some great tips in the post above.


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## Chris15 (Aug 30, 2008)

The question as to where to custom made cables sit in the line is like asking how long is a piece of string. While the person asking the original question has said they don't want to make their own and while we thus should be giving some premade options (I doubt you'll want any of my Australian options).

Now making your own is how the vast majority of reputable production companies (at least in my neck of the woods) go about things. When you start buying in the NC3FXX and NC3MXX in the bulk packs of 100 and you order a couple of hundred or a thousand at a time, it they become less expensive. Cable bought in bulk is the same. 

As previously noted, the preference of my employer, is for Canare Star Quad for mic leads and Eurocable Bantam Patch cable for patch cable... Neutrik XLRs, TRSs, etc. Eurocable multicore and LK multipins.

Now what determines where your cables stand compared to a premade option depends somewhat on the choice of cable and connector, but equally or more so on construction. A poor soldering job and you can have a cable more unreliable than the Chinese imports...


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## LekoBoy (Aug 30, 2008)

Buying NC3FXX and NC3MXX and Belden 8412 and making them yourself, or insisting that the cables you buy are made from those, is the best way. It's just not worth saving a few cents or even a dollar to buy cheap cables.

This is Whirlwind's largest American competitor, and maybe better quality. RapcoHorizon | Cables>Microphone, the NM5 is the best cost vs. quality.


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## Anonymous067 (Aug 30, 2008)

Okay...what actually makes the cheap cables so...well...bad?
Is it bad connectors, bad cable, both? I mean if the connection is there the connection is there. I've added my budget so I won't be buying economy, but still debating building cables or not.


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## derekleffew (Aug 30, 2008)

Blah067 said:


> Is it bad connectors, bad cable, both? ...


Yes to both questions, plus poor terminations. The shielding should be braided and offer the most coverage. The wire guage should be as heavy as possible, while still allowing flexibility. The fillers should have inherent strength so as not to transfer strain onto the conductors. The outer jacket needs to be strong, yet flexible. The cable should be inherently immune from kinking, and not have a memory so it coils nicely.

The connectors should be easy to assemble/disassemble, and be able to withstand being stepped upon, having road cases (or scenery, forklifts, man-lifts, and platform lifts) being rolled over them. Black or silver is a personal choice; as is gold- or nickel-plated contacts.

The construction should include no cold solder joints, the cable stripped to proper length, the conductors tinned properly, the jacket inside the strain relief.

I've seen artists' technical riders which state, for the Star's main vocal mic: "Two (2) NEW, in never-been-opened packages, from a USA-manufacturer, highest quality Fifty foot long, microphone cables, using either Switchcraft or Neutrik XLR connectors." If I were a famous singer, I would demand the same.


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## waynehoskins (Aug 30, 2008)

Blah067 said:


> Okay...what actually makes the cheap cables so...well...bad?
> Is it bad connectors, bad cable, both? I mean if the connection is there the connection is there. I've added my budget so I won't be buying economy, but still debating building cables or not.



Here's how Horizon years ago saved money on their economy line:
- in-house connectors, cheap Switchcraft A3 knockoffs with low-temp plastic
- in-house cable, small conductors, thin jackets, little fillers
- never tightened the strain reliefs
= guaranteed to fail in short order

I lost count of how many of those I fixed back in the mid '90s.


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## Chris15 (Sep 6, 2008)

Some of the poor / cheap connectors have sloppy tolerances in manufacturing and so don't neccessarily connect snugly. Some just have a weird design that saves metal or whatever. If you don't have a rock solid connection, then you can get crackling and other nastiness. This worsens when phantom 
is involved... A good latching setup helps this process as well as reducing the likelihood of something embarrassing like the cable falling out of the mic from happening...

Poor cable can internally fracture or can in really bad cases short out. I dislike intensely cable that has inner insulation that melts too easily, it makes them extraordinarily difficult to work with. I also dislike anything the feels ick, because it is destroying my hands as I roll it...

You also want some flex in the cable so that it can work properly with the strain relief. I seen NL4s ripped off rubbish cable much more than off good cable, because the strain relief works better when it can bite.

Termination wise, it is easier to strip back a bit more of the centre conductors, but doing so leaves exposed conductor when terminated that is liable to short out to the shield after abuse.

Cable that bluntens the tools used to cut it is actually good, as it means they are using Kevlar or something else with good strength to reduce the starin on the all important twisted pair. Oh, and for mic cable, some cheap cable doesn't have reliable twisting of the centre pair. This is absolutely essential for a balanced line, as it is a rather large part of the common mode rejection setup...


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## Anonymous067 (Sep 7, 2008)

Slight change of subject.

What cable (bulk) to use for a speaker cable? Looking at these cables:

100 Foot Speakon to Speakon (preferred 4 conductor for biamp uses)
25 Foot Speakon to Speakon (preferred 4 conductor but can be 2)
SHORT 1/4 male to Speakon (probably 2 conductor)

I determined from people here I needed belden 8412 for XLR cables. What about 1/4" to XLR cables? TRS balanced please.


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## howlingwolf487 (Sep 7, 2008)

Blah067 said:


> What about 1/4" to XLR cables? TRS balanced please.



Use the same type of cable. You're just changing the connector, not the environment the cable will be used it or it's number of conductors, etc., so go with the same type.


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## waynehoskins (Sep 7, 2008)

For speaker cable, I usually use regular SJ cable from the electrical cable makers. 14/4 or 12/4 work well for NL4s. It's not super flexible; some of the other stuff (Rapco/Horizon/VTG, Proco, Whirlwind) is probably more flexible. I find mine on Ebay usually.


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## Anonymous067 (Sep 7, 2008)

I really want Neutrik XX series connectors, but I just well assume, if I build XLR cables, I may as well build all my cables. And I can't find anybody who makes cables with Neutriks already on them.

Plus I can't figure out what cable is used on Speakon cables.


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## waynehoskins (Sep 7, 2008)

Blah067 said:


> Plus I can't figure out what cable is used on Speakon cables.



Plain old 14/4 SJ. Electrical supplier and sometimes hardware store has it. Online you can probably find it cheaper. You can also use 12/4 SJ if you like, and you can use SO instead if you like (it will be more durable at the expense of being larger and heavier).


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## Anonymous067 (Sep 7, 2008)

Yet another question.

what is the difference in Belden 8412 (2 conductor I guess?)
and belden 1192a or 1172a? they say they have 4 conductors???

Why the difference in conductors?


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## waynehoskins (Sep 7, 2008)

1192A and 1172A are "Star Quad" cable. The two same-colored wires (often blue and white) are tied together; that gets you a redundant wire, and Belden claim the Star Quad construction to be superior to a traditional twisted pair in terms of common-mode rejection. I'm not partial either way really; both work.

The big thing about 8412 is it's 20 AWG (Star Quad are usually 24 or 26 AWG) honest twisted pair, with plenty of fillers, a braided shield, and a beefy jacket. It's almost indestructible at the expense of some flexibility (it's not uber limp). Star Quad are normally more flexible, since often they don't have as much filler strands or as beefy a jacket.

In my mind, the big advantage to Star Quad is the redundant pairs, at the expense of some durability in extreme conditions.


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## Anonymous067 (Sep 7, 2008)

Thanks for the clarification. :]


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## derekleffew (Sep 8, 2008)

"Star Quad" is a trademark owned by Canare, is it not?


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## waynehoskins (Sep 8, 2008)

derekleffew said:


> "Star Quad" is a trademark owned by Canare, is it not?



Probably. I think Belden use a term that's similar but different to describe those cables. But I looked at it, and (using the term in the same manner as Kleenex or Coke or Leko) said to myself "oh, that's star quad".


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## Chris15 (Sep 8, 2008)

Star Quad does lower the noise floor. Canare have the graphs to "show" it, well to the extent that any manufacturer's marketing material is to be taken as gospel... Here.

Hmmm... You have a whole few milliamps running through a mic cable. I don't tend to think you need a terribly thick conductor... Durability can I guess fall in favour of the thicker cable. I still dislike seeing it.

And I'll lay down that I dislike Belden. I don't like the feel of the insulation. I like smooth, flexible insulation, on the outside and the inside. But I will give them marks for a double braided shield on their core. Oh wait, that's the biggest reason I dislike it, it's an absolute pain to unbraid that shielding because they entangle in each other...

The same thoughts on insulation feel and flexibility apply to speaker cable. Some people have a tendency to use less flexible electrical cable than they should and that is not great for handling, nor for gripping the Speakon connectors on... I also dislike cable that covers my jeans legs in powder when working with it...


I doubt it applies as much in the environments the majority of the readership work in, but cables over about 50 metres really have no excuse for being less than 4mm sq in conductor cross sectional area, presuming you are running *real* speakers at reasonable to high power levels...


Someone asked about TRS - XLR, the comment was made about same cable, agreed, though I'd be making them in patch cable for flexibility. As to connectors, Neutrik NP3X.

I think it might be prudent to mention that the environment I work in, budget is less of an issue than it is for a number of people. We can afford to be fussy because to an extent we can't afford not to be. When there are 6 or 7 figures being charged for a show and/or it's being televised to millions and in some cases billions of people, a little bit extra on cabling is very cheap insurance... Abuse wise, cables are very close to the top of the list (after I think crew). Cables fail, things don't go so good for your reputation...

My few cents worth anyway...


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## Anonymous067 (Sep 13, 2008)

1/4" connectors for speaker cables?


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## waynehoskins (Sep 13, 2008)

Blah067 said:


> 1/4" connectors for speaker cables?



Preferably not if you can avoid it -- Neutrik NL4 (or NL8 as applicable) or Cannon EP (for typically pre-Speakon boxes) are much better. If all that your boxes have is 1/4", one of three options that come to mind might be the thing to do:

- convert the boxes to NL4 (and do loop 2+2- through even though you don't use them on that box) -- if you have room, simply adding NL4s gives you some more flexibility
- build NL4-to-1/4" adapter tails (Neutrik recently came out with a NL4 inline male perfect for that)
- build 1/4" cables (I'd avoid this one if possible)

If you do have to go with 1/4" connectors one way or another, Switchcraft and Neutrik make a 1/4" connector designed for large-diameter cable. I don't remember the model number offhand, but it should be in all the major catalogs.


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## Anonymous067 (Sep 16, 2008)

waynehoskins said:


> Preferably not if you can avoid it -- Neutrik NL4 (or NL8 as applicable) or Cannon EP (for typically pre-Speakon boxes) are much better. If all that your boxes have is 1/4", one of three options that come to mind might be the thing to do:
> 
> - convert the boxes to NL4 (and do loop 2+2- through even though you don't use them on that box) -- if you have room, simply adding NL4s gives you some more flexibility
> - build NL4-to-1/4" adapter tails (Neutrik recently came out with a NL4 inline male perfect for that)
> ...



Yeah.
First of all, I don't like 1/4" cables period. Too many accidental un-plugs from idiots.
A model number was exactly what I was looking for. Thanks for your help.
Could you show me a portable snake WITHOUT 1/4" returns (or XLR...which is even worse).
I do prefer speakons. If you read the preface of my thread, you see I say somewhere I want speakon's. However, to make the system compatible with visitor systems, other peoples amps, loop outs, cable shortages, I'd like to have a few 1/4"ers around.

Thanks.


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## avkid (Sep 16, 2008)

Blah067 said:


> Could you show me a portable snake WITHOUT 1/4" returns (or XLR...which is even worse).


Do explain!!!


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## Chris15 (Sep 17, 2008)

Blah067 said:


> Could you show me a portable snake WITHOUT 1/4" returns (or XLR...which is even worse).
> I do prefer speakons. If you read the preface of my thread, you see I say somewhere I want speakon's. However, to make the system compatible with visitor systems, other peoples amps, loop outs, cable shortages, I'd like to have a few 1/4"ers around.



Err you mean the ones designed for as volt of line level signal and wired to 22 odd gauge wire NOT speaker level signal? Plenty of consoles have balanced TRS outputs, and in fact XLR is even better in those cases... If I were ever to see Speakon on a core, I'd be concerned...

And the 6.5mm plug has no place in professional speaker systems. Ever...


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## Anonymous067 (Sep 17, 2008)

Chris15 said:


> Err you mean the ones designed for as volt of line level signal and wired to 22 odd gauge wire NOT speaker level signal? Plenty of consoles have balanced TRS outputs, and in fact XLR is even better in those cases... If I were ever to see Speakon on a core, I'd be concerned...
> 
> And the 6.5mm plug has no place in professional speaker systems. Ever...



Okay...I'm not sure what a 6.5mm plug is. I'm guessing 1/4". If it has no place, why do over half the speakers produced have it on them?

Please reword your first sentence? It doesn't make sense.


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## Chris15 (Sep 17, 2008)

Blah067 said:


> Okay...I'm not sure what a 6.5mm plug is. I'm guessing 1/4". If it has no place, why do over half the speakers produced have it on them?



Geez... you lot really have no idea of the metric system... 6.5mm is 1/4"... You will note that I said professional... The half you are referring to are probably those that fail to meet my definition of professional... It's a bad plug and if you have stuff with it on, I'd be replacing it with Speakon... It also happens to momentarily short things out as you plug them in... part of the reason I dislike it...

The returns in cores are designed for line level signal, not speaker level and so they should not have speakon on them... Powering speakers off them will severely bone you at some point...


As to compatibility, in most cases I would think that bare ends were more versatile, but given some of the lower end stuff, I guess 1/4" can have a use...


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