# Projectors about 6000 lumens etc



## TDjohn (Feb 9, 2011)

Hi, I am about to buy a projector. #1 today is the pioneer 6k projector - pt-dw6000us. I looked at the similar sharp XG-P610X (more expensive); NEC (NEC NP4100-09FL), and it looks like the nec models come in a little cheaper. and hit my zoom spec the best. But I worry about image and the 500 lumens less. Anyone using any of these and have red flags or kudos to share?

John


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## SHARYNF (Feb 9, 2011)

TDjohn said:


> Hi, I am about to buy a projector. #1 today is the pioneer 6k projector - pt-dw6000us. I looked at the similar sharp XG-P610X (more expensive); NEC (NEC NP4100-09FL), and it looks like the nec models come in a little cheaper. and hit my zoom spec the best. But I worry about image and the 500 lumens less. Anyone using any of these and have red flags or kudos to share?
> 
> John


I think you are talking about the PANASONIC not Pioneer. I have worked with the PANASONIC, have been happy, but you need to remember it is a 1024x768 so you are not in full wide screen mode, etc. depends on what your needs are but the future is going more to native 1080p full 1920 projectors

it is quite a bit more money but the Panasonic PT DZ6700UL is the newer wide screen model 

Sharyn


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## TDjohn (Feb 9, 2011)

"I think you are talking about the PANASONIC not Pioneer. " 

You are correct. I have been surfing many items today -- whew. Panasonic.

I did more searches and the NEC is looking better. Anyone have experience?

"it is quite a bit more money but the Panasonic PT DZ6700UL is the newer wide screen model" 

BH has that at $9300 - out of range for me.

"Sharyn" Thanks Sharyn


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## SHARYNF (Feb 10, 2011)

Can you explain more exactly what you want to do with the projector? Lumen ratings are sort of marketing gamesmanship, so you need to be careful. 
I would be a bit concerned spending around 6 grand for really a low resolution projector. If you dropped back to 3000 lumens then the price would drop dramatically, and depending on the situation, the difference might not be all that noticable. In my experience controlling ambient light is more important than lumens until you move from 3k to 12K. 

So you might want to see if you can try out in your situation several models, I would compare 6000 and 3000

Sharyn 


Sharyn


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## museav (Feb 10, 2011)

I guess I am a little confused as Panasonic's web site shows a PT-D6000US model and a PT-DW6300US model but no PT-DW6000US model. Since the NEC NP4100 noted is a native 1024x768 resolution, I assume you meant the PT-D6000US, which is also native 1024x768.

Lumens are a bit like decibels in that there is not a linear correlation, for example the difference between a 3,000 lumen and 6,000 lumen projector on the same screen is readily noticeable but not a 2:1 relationship. The difference between 6,500 ANSI lumens and 6,200 ANSI lumens and between 2,000:1 and 2,100:1 contrast ratios is going to be difficult to see even side by side, if you had to walk out of one room with one projector and into an adjacent identical room with the other projector you'd almost certainly not notice those differences. There are other factors such as native format and resolution, input compatibility, throw distance, noise levels, lens shift and so on that typically are considerations and that might have much more of an impact when selecting a projector.


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## TDjohn (Feb 23, 2011)

Hi,

thanks for the input.

Sorry about the delay - tech weeks!

I am in a theater of 435 seats. It's an about 60 feet deep house. There is trouble controlling light during the day due to windows. Also, it is not uncommon to need stage lighting and projection at the same time.

I have a projector position that is 25 feet from the screen, and another position that is 65 feet from the screen. I would love to use the 65 foot position.

This is a school. So we will use this for lectures, multi-media as part of variety shows. For example we honor MLK day with song, dance, video and PP slides. All the media gets switched through the main projector.

Additionally I have used many cheap lecture projectors for art. Vivitek 2600 lumen projectors - cheap from bh. These would not carry a strong enough signal for a big screen. (I use an array of four projectors to fill about 30 feet wide by 15 feet tall scenic field.) I use those for art, scenic and dance "Scene Machines."

For the movie screen -- I plan on increasing our screen size from 12 feet to 20 feet. The proscenium is 36 feet.

Why 6k lumens? Well, that's where the money runs out on this one project. Simply put.

I want to push the most image/light with the money I have. Our overall foot-candles are rather high. This image needs to stand up as well as it can.

Did that help?

John


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## llecount (Feb 24, 2011)

I've got the NEC NP4100W in my venue. It works great for what we use it for, and was a much better solution than what we used previously. 
It's throwing about 105' in the picture below.


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## museav (Feb 25, 2011)

TDjohn said:


> I am in a theater of 435 seats. It's an about 60 feet deep house. There is trouble controlling light during the day due to windows. Also, it is not uncommon to need stage lighting and projection at the same time.
> 
> I have a projector position that is 25 feet from the screen, and another position that is 65 feet from the screen. I would love to use the 65 foot position.
> 
> ...


When you mention increasing the movie screen from 12' to 20' are you talking about the image height, width or diagonal dimension? And do you want to be able to support the 15' high, 30' wide image you mentioned? Even with cinema type ambient light levels that would suggest more than a 6,000 lumen or so projector and with little lighting control I'd say probably more around 20,000 lumens or more.

For a 60' deep room, I'd say a 10'x17.78' or even 7.5'x13.33' image should probably be large enough for video, PowerPoint, etc. And that might work with a 6,000 lumen projector provided you can provide some light control.

What are you projecting on? That can also have an impact on the projector and the effect of the ambient lighting.

The bottom line is that I think you may have to compromise on lighting control, image size and/or budget.


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## Kingcaffeine (Feb 27, 2011)

We use the Panasonic PT-D5600 in our theater and it is sufficient. It'll do a WXGA mode if you need that aspect ratio, but yes, it is XGA. I throw 120' onto a 12'x16' regularly and it isn't horrible. These (or a comparable model) can be had from Fullcompass's B-stock for around 4k$. You'd have to check all the regular spots for the best price though. The optional lensing is great too.


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## TDjohn (Feb 27, 2011)

llecount said:


> I've got the NEC NP4100W in my venue. It works great for what we use it for, and was a much better solution than what we used previously.
> It's throwing about 105' in the picture below.
> View attachment 4561



Thanks,

What lens do you use - to what size screen? I could not blow up that picture, tho. It was a Thumb size shot.

John


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## TDjohn (Feb 27, 2011)

llecount said:


> I've got the NEC NP4100W in my venue. It works great for what we use it for, and was a much better solution than what we used previously.
> It's throwing about 105' in the picture below.
> View attachment 4561



Oh, also... how loud is the fan? Is it an issue?


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## museav (Feb 28, 2011)

TDjohn said:


> h weeks!
> 
> I am in a theater of 435 seats. It's an about 60 feet deep house. There is trouble controlling light during the day due to windows. Also, it is not uncommon to need stage lighting and projection at the same time.
> 
> ...


Can you clarify the desired image size ? I'm not sure if you are wanting a 20' diagonal, 4:3 screen (16'x12') image or a 20'x35.56', 16:9 format image or maybe something else. The related difference in image area (192 sq. ft. versus 711 sq. ft.) and format could have a major impact on the projected image and thus the projector.

It would also help if you could quantify the ambient light levels. One major goal for projection is usually having sufficient image contrast, which is the ratio between full white and full black on the screen. Often the ambient light levels will dictate the potential black level of the projected image, so maintaining the same image contrast ratio with greater ambient light levels requires proportionally greater projector brightness. The reference to daylight and high ambient light levels makes me concerned that your situation may be quite different than some of the other applications being referenced.

The throw and related lens can also make a difference. While there are often benefits to long throw lenses, in some cases those lenses can incur up to a 25% or so penalty in projector brightness due to losses through the lens optics. So often a long throw lens requires a brighter projector to provide the same image brightness and contrast.


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## TDjohn (Feb 28, 2011)

museav said:


> Can you clarify the desired image size ? I'm not sure if you are wanting a 20' diagonal, 4:3 screen (16'x12') image or a 20'x35.56', 16:9 format image or maybe something else. The related difference in image area (192 sq. ft. versus 711 sq. ft.) and format could have a major impact on the projected image and thus the projector.
> 
> It would also help if you could quantify the ambient light levels. One major goal for projection is usually having sufficient image contrast, which is the ratio between full white and full black on the screen. Often the ambient light levels will dictate the potential black level of the projected image, so maintaining the same image contrast ratio with greater ambient light levels requires proportionally greater projector brightness. The reference to daylight and high ambient light levels makes me concerned that your situation may be quite different than some of the other applications being referenced.
> 
> The throw and related lens can also make a difference. While there are often benefits to long throw lenses, in some cases those lenses can incur up to a 25% or so penalty in projector brightness due to losses through the lens optics. So often a long throw lens requires a brighter projector to provide the same image brightness and contrast.



Image size:

20 feet wide.

I use width. Ever since the images started to change, diagonal calculations have become too iffy for me. 20 wide, whatever tall. I think I'll build the screen for 4:3 though. My current screen was designed with vertical slides in mind so it may even be taller than it is wide. I rarely roll it down that far.

Here is how I am going to cheat.

I will buy the projector with the lens I think I want. Put it where I want it. then build a few sample screen out of paper, then order the one I like. Maybe this is backwards, but it seems like it will work. 

Everyone else (all the calculators they provide) want/wants to work from a fixed screen size and throw, then spec the rest of the system from that. I know I want a bigger screen than 12 feet and less than 36 feet. I do have old projectors to play with, too.


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## museav (Feb 28, 2011)

TDjohn said:


> Image size:
> 
> 20 feet wide.
> 
> ...


It is the image height that matters in terms of the legibility of text, which seems to likely be relevant based on the applications you listed. And I think that may be part of the difficulty, the PowerPoint and video applications may suggest one approach while some of the other applications a different approach. That is also why all the calculators work the way they do. There are recommended relationships between image height and viewing distance for different applications and then recommended relationships between ambient light and image brightness. So you usually start with the desired viewing area, derive the resulting desired image size and then use that image area and the desired image contrast ratio to get the appropriate brightness on the screen from the projector. If you start with the projector then you end up backing yourself into an image size and viewing distance when the latter is usually what is the goal.

The method you propose may work but could result in either limiting the character size to larger fonts or limiting the viewing area for some applications.

FWIW, a 15' high by 20' wide image with a 6,000 lumen projector is 20 ftl on the screen. Realistically, with a longer throw lens and lamp life the actual brightness would likely be less than that. That's starting to get down into the area where you would typically want ambient lighting conditions more like that of a cinema. It's also going to mean that almost half the room is closer to the screen than would normally be recommended for viewing computer graphics and text. What you might want to try to do is to find a projector and lens combination that lets you adjust the image size as much as possible so that you can accommodate a range of image sizes, from the 15'x20' dimension desired for some applications to maybe a 10' high by 13.33' wide image with greater image brightness for other applications.


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## TDjohn (Mar 1, 2011)

Boy,

That's a good idea.

I had not thought of zooming in for graphic and zooming out for movies.

Hmm.

I think i will limited in what zooms I can get, though. Nonetheless, if too zooms hit my range, I can get the longer one.

John


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## museav (Mar 1, 2011)

TDjohn said:


> I had not thought of zooming in for graphic and zooming out for movies.


Before 16:9 native projectors were common I would often use a 16:9 screen and a 4:3 projector, then select the projector placement and lens such that you could zoom in and fill the screen height with a 4:3 image and then zoom out to fill the screen height height and width for 16:9 images. That usually restricted the projector location to a very limited area, so if that location is limited by other factors then what you can do with the zoom may also be limited.


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