# Digital Sound Board Recommendations



## sarahsliefie (May 3, 2011)

I am a bit new to the sound world. My school just thought I should handle that as well as everything else. That being said they have some money to throw at a new board. We need a digital board with at least 40 channels and large enough for two people to work on it at once. what has worked well for you and why do you like it? 

As some back ground we have a Gymnatorium and do 2-3 plays a year with small productions (3-6 mics, 1 hour) every other day. We are also in the middle of a large system re do but i have not been given any information on that.


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## tyler.martin (May 3, 2011)

I would look at a Yamaha M7CL-48. Possibly one of the easiest digital consoles to learn. I'm a lighting guy and I learned it within an afternoon. 

The only issue with your specs is a digital console is they are not really conducive to multiple operators. Because you cannot edit the parameters of a channel without being at the central display or controls, it can get clumsy with 4 hands flying over the desk.


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## themuzicman (May 3, 2011)

If you are running 3-6 mics, why the need for multiple operators and 40 channels? Also, how does the soundboard play into the larger system revision? You should be looking at your needs downstream of the console to see what type of processing is being installed as part of this new system to gauge what exactly you will need this board to do. Digital boards can do a lot, and they can either compliment or replace some of the downstream processing you have or will get with a new system.

Most digital boards aren't conducive to more than one operator - and the M7CL is built for the convenience of a single operator (the CL stands for "Central Logic" - the center panel that brings up your channels in groups of 8). My money, for a school, is going to go with the LS9-32 if you need 40 inputs. You get 32 analog ins and 32 digital ins (64 inputs total). You have to access them in layers, which is something the M7 does away with, but for the price point that most schools run at, you get what you pay for.


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## sarahsliefie (May 3, 2011)

Most of the day to day audio is 3-6 inputs. But we have around 12 productions a year that need a minimum of 16 and we have 4-6 productions a year we now have as many as 36, and I want to be able to expand. The reason for two operators is the directors we have. They insist every mic be manually controlled (no scene presets). It is nuts but can only be done if you have two people running them. I am trying to get it changed and in the future I would like to use a digital board as it was intended, but until then we are stuck with running it as an analog board. that is why I want a digital board that can be run by two people. Unfortunately here the director is the law and nothing can change their mind, even when they want to micro manage everything.


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## MisterTim (May 3, 2011)

martinty said:


> The only issue with your specs is a digital console is they are not really conducive to multiple operators. Because you cannot edit the parameters of a channel without being at the central display or controls, it can get clumsy with 4 hands flying over the desk.


 This is only true for Yamahas and other cheap digital boards. This is not true at all for many others. The Soundcraft Vi6 is extremely easy to have 2 people working on; it's even easier than on an analog board. Of course, I'll assume that any serious digital board is out of budget...


sarahsliefie said:


> The reason for two operators is the directors we have. They insist every mic be manually controlled (no scene presets). It is nuts but can only be done if you have two people running them. I am trying to get it changed and in the future I would like to use a digital board as it was intended, but until then we are stuck with running it as an analog board. that is why I want a digital board that can be run by two people. Unfortunately here the director is the law and nothing can change their mind, even when they want to micro manage everything.


<rant>No. No, just no. The director cannot control how you run the board. Get new directors.</rant>
With that said, who cares? I have no problem running 50+ channels (22 vocal mics plus a bunch in the orchestra, on stage, etc) by myself without a single scene preset. I mark my script up really well. In fact, if I have the rehearsal time to properly learn the show, I almost prefer it. But your logic is not making sense to me. If you *need* to have multiple people working at the board, why in the world would you want to go digital? At your budget, that's only going to make life harder, not easier. I think you should stay analog until you're not being strangled by a micro-managing director.


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## ScottT (May 3, 2011)

MisterTim said:


> But your logic is not making sense to me. If you *need* to have multiple people working at the board, why in the world would you want to go digital? At your budget, that's only going to make life harder, not easier. I think you should stay analog until you're not being strangled by a micro-managing director.


 
Seconded, it is much easier for multiple operators to be controlling EQ and other settings per channel, physically, rather then having to fight over a display with one set of controls.


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## chausman (May 3, 2011)

I agree with everyone above me. And, in my opinion, while I do want some of these different Digital boards, you can still learn a lot from an analogue that applies to a digital - gain, EQ, compressor (assuming outboard gear). Save some money, get an AH GL2800 and some good outboard gear to learn on as well!

And, if we get enough people to post here, you can print this out (under thread tools at the top) and give it to your director who wants to have two ops.


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## bishopthomas (May 3, 2011)

The only real way to have two users on a Yamaha digital console is with Studio Manager. One person gets the console, one person gets a tablet PC. However, using a stylus and touching physical faders are two very different things...


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## bishopthomas (May 3, 2011)

chausman said:


> Save some money, get an AH GL2800 and some good outboard gear to learn on as well!


 
I would say that if the OP has the budget for an M7 then he should get a used Heritage 3000, not a GL2800.


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## MNicolai (May 3, 2011)

> <rant>No. No, just no. The director cannot control how you run the board. Get new directors.</rant>



Oh, god, do I agree with this.

There are a couple of 70 year-old theater people in the area who hate our Congo lighting console and wish we had an Express console that had a channel fader for each of our 288 dimmers. Needless to say, just because they think that's a good idea doesn't mean we let them dictate how we turn the lights on.

More on topic, the Yamaha gear is really nice. I'm very fond of our LS9.


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## ScottT (May 3, 2011)

bishopthomas said:


> I would say that if the OP has the budget for an M7 then he should get a used Heritage 3000, not a GL2800.



Yes, yes, and yes!



bishopthomas said:


> The only real way to have two users on a Yamaha digital console is with Studio Manager. One person gets the console, one person gets a tablet PC. However, using a stylus and touching physical faders are two very different things...


 
Having used a Lenovo X201T to control a LS9-16, it's pretty difficult. There are also quite a few drawbacks (not being able to access some features, risk of losing connection) and all that good stuff that comes with using a computer in a show situation.


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## chausman (May 3, 2011)

bishopthomas said:


> I would say that if the OP has the budget for an M7 then he should get a used Heritage 3000, not a GL2800.


 
That was the first thing that popped into my head. I'm not going to make any suggestions though, since the biggest console I have used is my old Behringer 32 channel.

But, they also didn't give a budget though.


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## bishopthomas (May 4, 2011)

chausman said:


> That was the first thing that popped into my head. I'm not going to make any suggestions though, since the biggest console I have used is my old Behringer 32 channel.
> 
> But, they also didn't give a budget though.


 
An H3k certainly is large enough for two people to work comfortably behind it. As far as price, no a budget wasn't given, but a 40+ channel digital console costs what it costs, and it's not going to be cheap.


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## metti (May 4, 2011)

You could go iLive. I have never used them like this during a show but they seem like they would work pretty well with a single mix rack, a big surface, and a secondary surface for a second board op. That said, I have mixed 40+ channel shows without scenes a bunch of times and it really isn't that hard if you have a rehearsal or two for practice and a chunk of time to prep your script really well.


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## themuzicman (May 4, 2011)

I think those saying to look at the AH 2800 are extremely correct on more than one front. 

1. If you still need more than 1 op (for whatever reason...) you can still get that control with an analog 
---that being said...as MisterTim said, it's not unusual for ops to run 50+ channels solo. For a skilled op, it's easy. It seems that the OP is at a college - you are there to learn, and part of learning is how to juggle 50+ channels!

2. An analog board with proper offboard is a great learning tool! If you can see how it is all wired and signal flow, it helps to really understand the processes that are going on in a digital board when you use it. You get that nice analog sound with a proper board, and some fun experience hooking it all up and making it work.


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## Anonymous067 (May 4, 2011)

Doesn't the director have better things to do than tell you HOW to run your board? I've worked with some directors who had some odd requests...but never one who told me how to run my board! If you're doing your job right, they shouldn't need to know how you're running it, or CARE for that matter. So long as it sounds good.


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## museav (May 7, 2011)

sarahsliefie said:


> I am a bit new to the sound world. My school just thought I should handle that as well as everything else. That being said they have some money to throw at a new board.




sarahsliefie said:


> I am a bit new to the sound world. My school just thought I should handle that as well as everything else. That being said they have some money to throw at a new board.




sarahsliefie said:


> We are also in the middle of a large system re do but i have not been given any information on that.


So you're responsible but you don't know what's going on regarding a major renovation of the system. Based on my experience that needs to be addressed before anything else or you could end up working at cross purposes.


sarahsliefie said:


> Most of the day to day audio is 3-6 inputs. But we have around 12 productions a year that need a minimum of 16 and we have 4-6 productions a year we now have as many as 36, and I want to be able to expand.


How about getting something for the day-to-day or monthly uses and renting for the big shows? Of course this also goes back to the point above, the mixer is just one component of the overall system and the two need to be coordinated. Having 20 wireless mics and a 16 channel board isn't good but neither is having to use a 40 channel console every day if the rest of the system and venue don't normally justify it. Also, there are potentially many other factors to consider such as what you need or want on the output side of the console.


sarahsliefie said:


> The reason for two operators is the directors we have. They insist every mic be manually controlled (no scene presets). It is nuts but can only be done if you have two people running them. I am trying to get it changed and in the future I would like to use a digital board as it was intended, but until then we are stuck with running it as an analog board. that is why I want a digital board that can be run by two people. Unfortunately here the director is the law and nothing can change their mind, even when they want to micro manage everything.


This would seem to severely limit the education and experience the students receive as well as constraining their creativity. If they want an analog console and aren't going to allow using many of the benefits of a digital console then why get a digital console? Speaking of which, what do you currently have? Do they also prohibit mute groups, VCAs, etc.?


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## TimmyP1955 (May 8, 2011)

Now that StageMix is available for the LS9, remote mixing is a lot better (so long as you don't need to adjust dynamics).

I think I agree that if you must have two ops, a center-master analog like the GL2800 makes a lot of sense. Plus, when you go digital, the GL's reasonable purchase price means you won't loose a fortune when you sell it.


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## maestrobranson (May 18, 2011)

I would like to comment on a few things. First, yamaha does not make the "cheap" digital boards...if you notice, that have desks that go from 2500 (one of the best digital boards in that price range in both sound and feature set) to over $100 with their no longer made PM1D. I've mixed on all of the yamaha digital boards from the 01v to the 5D. They perform, are high quality and last. There is a reason they are popular and are rider friendly. That being said, I agree that with your requirements set by the powers that be, digital may not be your best option. An analog desk may be a great way to go. Midas makes A nice desk in the under $10k range called the Venice...it's not a H3K, but it's not $80k either. APB is high quality as is the old large format yammys...the PM3500...etc. I do like other digital boards as well, like the avid Sc48, their workflow is just harder to understand. My vote is on the relatively cheap m7cl 48...that's just my two cents. 
I have worked with a concert production company, one that has avid, yamaha, various other digital desks. We also have many analog desks including Midas h3ks, crests, ramsas, yamaha, a&h, soundcraft and many others. My money is on yamaha for cost/usability. Sorry for the hasty written rant, I can blame most of the typos on my iPhone, most, but not all.
*now off of my soapbox*


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## jkowtko (Jun 6, 2012)

You might consider getting two boards. 

The Yamaha 01v96i and Presonus iLive have 16 and 24 channels respectively, and each can be daisy-chained with a second unit to double your fader count. Use one board for the smaller shows, and double up for the larger shows. No problem with two operators -- in fact you can space the boards apart for more breathing room. The price of two of either of these boards will cost you considerably less than a single LS9-32.


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## chausman (Jun 6, 2012)

jkowtko said:


> You might consider getting two boards.
> 
> The Yamaha 01v96i and Presonus iLive



Wait... *Allen and Heath* iLive, or PreSonus *StudioLive*?


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## tk2k (Jun 8, 2012)

chausman said:


> Wait... *Allen and Heath* iLive, or PreSonus *StudioLive*?


iLive is the allen and heath products


There is a lot of really bad advnice here, I'm sorry to say, but honestly you need to find something that works for you. What sound system are you running through? The M7 is not a very good sound console acoustically (it sounds worse than the LS9) however it's very common. 

Given the way you are forced to work, and iLive system would be perfect. Unlike the Yamaha gear, you can configure it any way you want, faders wherever you want, and each layer switches independently. Now, the EQs and so on are still accessible from the selected channel only, but the ilive editor app is fantastic (for ipad or for computer, computer one is better) .

What about groups, mute groups, or things of that nature? Director won't let you use them? 

If you are on budget constraint, and not using scenes anyway, the presonus gear might be really good as well. It's by far the best for the money you can get.


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## museav (Jun 9, 2012)

tk2k said:


> There is a lot of really bad advnice here...


A pet peeve of mine but when people say something like this then unless they are referencing everything offered previously I wish they would identify what advice they are referencing, otherwise people may assume they are referencing everything.


tk2k said:


> The M7 is not a very good sound console acoustically (it sounds worse than the LS9) however it's very common.


You probably mean sonically rather than acoustically. Different consoles definitely have different sonic characteristics but what actually matters is how much of a factor those characteristics may or may not be in actual use. For example, when one considers the wiring, signal processing, speaker system, acoustical environment and especially the operation related with many school, worship, club, etc. sound systems, the sonic differences between various mixer preamps is probably not much of a factor in the overall result. Just one of those cases where you may need to maintain a 'big picture' perspective as well as considering the details.


While continued discussion may aid others with similar situations or questions, I think it is important to note that the OP was over a year ago and has hopefully already had some resolution. It may also be relevant to note that the venue is apparently a gymnatorium, we don't know what they currently have, I don't think a related budget was ever established, we don't know what type or level school is involved and there was apparently a major renovation of the sound system in process. There seem to be a lot of unknowns that perhaps should be clarified before offering specific product recommendations.

I will also offer an alternative perspective regarding not using scenes or presets, one that considers the educational aspects. Scenes/presets are great tools, but like any tool one may be able to apply them more effectively, and better appreciate them, if you more fully understand their use and what they do. Learning how to work without scenes may make people think a bit more about when to use scenes and what to include in them, to consider what is most effective rather than what is easy. Then when they are ready to progress to the next level perhaps they can do so with a better understanding. I do not know if that is the case here, but I can see the approach noted being related to the potential educational aspects.


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## SHARYNF (Jun 12, 2012)

Go with two digital boards, linked one to the other
Sharyn


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## museav (Jun 12, 2012)

SHARYNF said:


> Go with two digital boards, linked one to the other


Just a caveat to look at how the linking works and how that relates to the envisioned use. For example, is it a matter of a submix on one console to the other or of actually linking them? Will presets/scenes work across the consoles or would recall be independent for each? Are aux sends and subgroups commmon or independent? If the console has multichannel USB or FireWire recording and you are using that will it support the linking? Linking or submixing can be a very effective option for many applications but rarely is it directly equivalent to creating a single larger console, so you may havee to consider the differences and if they matter in your application..


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## tdeater (Jun 14, 2012)

We recently got a presonus 24 channel digital board and it is growing on me. I am starting to really like it, and the ipad remote control works great. They do say they can be linked so you can get more inputs, but I don't know how that works. Linking 2 might work well for 2 board ops. We also have a Yamaha LS9 that works great, but would be hard for 2 people to use at once, unless you went the 2 console route there too.


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## Chris Chapman (Jun 14, 2012)

We just upgraded to an M7 in our space and I love it. Your directors will need to educate themselves on the advantages of a Digital Board. The Use of DCA's in the CentraLogic control space and recall-able scene Memory is one of the main bonuses of these boards vs. their analog brothers. If they are REALLY stuck on this bad idea of 2 operators, I'd suggest a second running StageMix on an iPad. But that still will cause confusion and problems with flying faders, mix on faders, and other settings. If your facility is serious about this upgrade, there will need to be changes in how they expect to run it. Old school rules need not apply to this situation.


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