# Economical Dante/AVB mixing board



## AlexDonkle (Jun 30, 2012)

Just curious, is anyone aware of an "economical" mixing consoles that support Dante or AVB I/O yet? So far the simplest one I'm aware of is Allen & Heath's GLD at $9k.

My general thought is that in simple school systems where we sometimes use a portable mixer (school's that insist on locking up the board at night), having a Cat6 connection could be far easier for school teachers/janitors/etc. to connect with (and all patching done in the DSP) instead of fan out snakes and 20+ connections that need to be made each time they want to use the sound system with analog boards.


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## Footer (Jul 1, 2012)

There is always the Dante card for Yamha consoles. Brought one two years ago and it was great. They give you 16 in, 16 out. Your money would be better spent on a good multi pin system instead of the ethernet system. 

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2


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## Chris15 (Jul 1, 2012)

There are a bunch of digital snake options out there that are not ethernet and TCP/IP native like Dante / AVB.
Where it's only about reducing the cable down, they may prove a better option.

GLD is NOT Dante nor AVB, it runs A&H's proprietary DSnake protocol, which is ethernet but is not TCP/IP and must run in a isolated VLAN if running on a shared network.
The GLD can be Dante enabled by adding a card.

Dante is WAY more than a digital snake and does not really come into its own until you start to want to do point to multi point, multicast, routing and those sorts of fun things.
... or record straight into a PC / Mac.


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## JohnD (Jul 1, 2012)

Something else to keep an eye on is the X32, not Dante, the stage box is extra and it is Behringer.
Behringer: DIGITAL MIXER X32
There is lots of chatter about it here:
X32 discussion
If, like many, you have concerns about Behringer, you might wade thru this discussion:
Uli Behringer of The Music Group Q&A


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## museav (Jul 1, 2012)

adonkle said:


> Just curious, is anyone aware of an "economical" mixing consoles that support Dante or AVB I/O yet? So far the simplest one I'm aware of is Allen & Heath's GLD at $9k.


Supports or natively supports? As noted, there are several products to which Dante can be added via optional cards but fewer for which it is native. For example, as Footer noted a Yamaha 01V96i with a Dante-MY16-AUD card providing 16 in and 16 out via Dante would be a much lower cost option but you would still need I/O devices and would be limited to 16 channels of remote inputs and outputs.

If you are simply looking at CAT connectivity for one or two locations, then you may not have to limit yourself to an Ethernet/IP based solution and could possibly use other standard (Cobranet, EtherSound, etc., AES50) or proprietary audio network options. But I'm still not sure that would get you in the price range you may be wanting.

The Behringer X32 with its AES50 connectivity and remote boxes may be an option, however be aware that while Behringer has said this is changing, my recent experience has been that as a Consultant you are still essentially a non-entity to Behringer and they offer no direct support, instead directing you to go through their dealers, which are primarily music stores and online mass-market retailers, or use the resources made available for consumers. Also be wary of the 3 year warranty Behringer markets as according to the 'limited warranty' information on their web site the warranty coverage is limited to one year for many of the components (faders, pots, knobs, meters, etc.) most likely to fail and apparently to 90 days for any power supplies.

A factor that I've run into when dealing with upgrades or renovations of existing systems and venues is that the infrastructure in place may not support such an approach. If everything on stage, the speaker system audio feeds, etc. all run to a location where you could install the mixer I/O devices and get from there to the desired mixer locations then that can work well. However, if there is no location where you could 'intercept' all of the audio and permanently mount the I/O devices then that may limit the viability of such an approach.


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## tk2k (Jul 1, 2012)

Couldn't agree more on the big B. Sadly even the Midas stuff has suffered (manufacturing standards dropped from 1 in a million to 1 in 100k on the pro2). 

GLD is a pretty great system. For the money, its way more than you'll get from any other company, without mixing and matching. If you're just looking for a digital snake, there's a lot of options... but remember, digital snakes are not cheap. In the case of the GLD, or any other system, you're still talking about leaving a few grand of stuff unlocked, which in your case defeats the point.


Maybe do something different, have you looked into roll-top desks? The kind you need an angle grider to get through? Then all the custodial staff needs is a key so they can roll the top down and lock it. We keep our $60k console in our main performance venue, which is not secured as it is used by many groups for rehearsals. Console sits under it's roll top mix station and we've never had any issues. 


museav said:


> Supports or natively supports? As noted, there are several products to which Dante can be added via optional cards but fewer for which it is native. For example, as Footer noted a Yamaha 01V96i with a Dante-MY16-AUD card providing 16 in and 16 out via Dante would be a much lower cost option but you would still need I/O devices and would be limited to 16 channels of remote inputs and outputs.
> 
> If you are simply looking at CAT connectivity for one or two locations, then you may not have to limit yourself to an Ethernet/IP based solution and could possibly use other standard (Cobranet, EtherSound, etc., AES50) or proprietary audio network options. But I'm still not sure that would get you in the price range you may be wanting.
> 
> ...


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## AlexDonkle (Jul 1, 2012)

Chris15 said:


> There are a bunch of digital snake options out there that are not ethernet and TCP/IP native like Dante / AVB.
> Where it's only about reducing the cable down, they may prove a better option.


Unless I'm mistaken, digital snakes require channel levels be set on the stage digital snake box first and then fine tuned on the board, instead of making all adjustments at the board. While not the most complex task, still not as simple as analog.
Multi-pin is nice, but requires some experience and care to plug or unplug multipin without damaging any pins, which is certainly not always the case in schools. And multi-pin isn't too cheap to replace if damaged.
While Dante/AVB options go directly into the board digitally so there gain controls can all be through the board.



JohnD said:


> If, like many, you have concerns about Behringer, you might wade thru this discussion:
> Uli Behringer of The Music Group Q&A



Uli Behringer woke up one morning and said "holy crap, I can't believe every audio professional in the world hates my products. I must fix this." (Or may have come from a discussion with Dr. Bose, as there Infocomm demo was definitely geared to improve their pro image.) I'll likely be worried of Behringer for a while honestly. I'm okay with a few missteps in any company, but Behringer spent years tolerating horrible quality and ripping off other company designs and shipping the production to China. "We were helping China learn how to build audio products" is not a good reason for a company to put out terrible gear for so many years. They wanted the volume production more than they cared about quality control or product support. Graned, just like Bose, it seemed to work out pretty well for them profit wise.


museav said:


> Supports or natively supports? As noted, there are several products to which Dante can be added via optional cards but fewer for which it is native. For example, as Footer noted a Yamaha 01V96i with a Dante-MY16-AUD card providing 16 in and 16 out via Dante would be a much lower cost option but you would still need I/O devices and would be limited to 16 channels of remote inputs and outputs.
> 
> If you are simply looking at CAT connectivity for one or two locations, then you may not have to limit yourself to an Ethernet/IP based solution and could possibly use other standard (Cobranet, EtherSound, etc., AES50) or proprietary audio network options. But I'm still not sure that would get you in the price range you may be wanting.
> 
> A factor that I've run into when dealing with upgrades or renovations of existing systems and venues is that the infrastructure in place may not support such an approach. If everything on stage, the speaker system audio feeds, etc. all run to a location where you could install the mixer I/O devices and get from there to the desired mixer locations then that can work well. However, if there is no location where you could 'intercept' all of the audio and permanently mount the I/O devices then that may limit the viability of such an approach.



Is there any disadvantage to consoles with a Dante card vs. native support?

Didn't realize the 01v96i was at that low of a price point honestly. Good to know. My only concern there is that while I like Yamaha consoles, I've never called their digital boards "intuitive" for anyone so I tend not to use them where inexperienced operators will likely be required to use the board. Certainly an option though with the Dante card so I'll keep that in mind. Thanks!


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## chausman (Jul 1, 2012)

adonkle said:


> Unless I'm mistaken, digital snakes require channel levels be set on the stage digital snake box first and then fine tuned on the board, instead of making all adjustments at the board. While not the most complex task, still not as simple as analog.



Not that I have seen.

S-4000S-0832 :: Products :: Roland is part of the Roland system. 
CONNECT Series Digital Snake - Catalog - Whirlwind is a Whirwind system.

All that I have seen are simply a stage box or a compliant audio console on either end of at least one Cat5/Cat5e/Cat6 cable. And those that I have seen, like the whirlwind or Roland above, function almost exactly like a "regular" snake, only with far less copper.


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## tk2k (Jul 1, 2012)

adonkle said:


> Is there any disadvantage to consoles with a Dante card vs. native support?
> 
> Didn't realize the 01v96i was at that low of a price point honestly. Good to know. My only concern there is that while I like Yamaha consoles, I've never called their digital boards "intuitive" for anyone so I tend not to use them where inexperienced operators will likely be required to use the board. Certainly an option though with the Dante card so I'll keep that in mind. Thanks!



Yes and no, dante is way more than just an audio transport network, but that's basically what it is. The yamaha CL consoles (outside your price range by a lot) use Dante, but they also send control data so you can adjust gain and that sort of thing.

One thing to be aware of is this, Dante means your (console) *preamps are useless*. When buying a digital snake, quality is extremely important. I've seen a lot of people use digital snakes with the M7 because the preamps in the M7 are so bad, but you'd never want to use a budget digital snake with a nice audio console, because you'll have a less than clean signal coming out of the snake. 
In other words, since the snake does the A/D, make sure it's got good A/D converters. 

The 01V is a very budget, very outdated console. The M7CL is even an outdated console at this point. Do you need to go digital, or are you just looking for something to replace your multicore? I made this suggestion above, how about a* roll-top desk*? how about a dog house with a *breakout*? then all you're doing is disconnecting that multipin, thatll cost you no more than $1k. 

From the sounds of it, you have not put enough thought into this yet. You describe it as a 'simple school setup' and 'portable pa' which to me does not warrent a $9k digital audio console upgrade? To be fair I do not understand your situation at all, I just don't see why you are jumping to such an expensive solution to very simple problem....



chausman said:


> All that I have seen are simply a stage box or a compliant audio console on either end of at least one Cat5/Cat5e/Cat6 cable. And those that I have seen, like the whirlwind or Roland above, function almost exactly like a "regular" snake, only with far less copper.


All of which introduces more A/D and D/A conversion, and latency ontop of your DAC (rolland is 1.2 ms, Whrilwind is 1.3 ms) while that's not terrible for FOH itll cause monitor problems because remember, that's latency one way.


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## AlexDonkle (Jul 2, 2012)

tk2k said:


> From the sounds of it, you have not put enough thought into this yet. You describe it as a 'simple school setup' and 'portable pa' which to me does not warrent a $9k digital audio console upgrade? To be fair I do not understand your situation at all, I just don't see why you are jumping to such an expensive solution to very simple problem....



Huh? Wasn't planning on using GLD for it, I was curious what the snake options were below the GLD (like the Yamaha mentioned above). It's simple enough to design analog I/O into a board if that's what'll be the easiest to use overall at a lower price point. Ideally, a single Cat5e would save on copper run to the mix position, be easier to connect, and have no performance or function tradeoffs. I see no reason why that won't eventually become the standard, but the tech hasn't come down into too many economical mixers yet. 

Roll-top desks are great if the school allows a permanent mix location, but recently we've had systems where they're combining the auditorium with the cafeteria (DoDEA has a new school design standard which is... interesting) so they don't want a permanent cabinet installed for a mix position anywhere and instead just have a wall plate so they can wheel the sound board to it. The wall plate then connects into the permanent system.


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## museav (Jul 2, 2012)

adonkle said:


> Ideally, a single Cat5e would save on copper run to the mix position, be easier to connect, and have no performance or function tradeoffs. I see no reason why that won't eventually become the standard, but the tech hasn't come down into too many economical mixers yet.


There can be a difference between a digital snake (Whirlwind, Reidel, Aviom, ProCo Momentum, Roland, etc.), a mixing console with associated remote I/O boxes with digital audio network connections (M-480, X32, M7CL48-ES, GLD, etc.) and a mixer with a central procesor I/O box and digital network connections to a work surface (iLive, PM1D, Venue, etc.). A digital snake addresses the audio signal transport but it may or may not provide control and monitoring of the remote preamps from the associated mixer.


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## museav (Aug 3, 2012)

chausman said:


> Not that I have seen.
> 
> S-4000S-0832 :: Products :: Roland is part of the Roland system.
> CONNECT Series Digital Snake - Catalog - Whirlwind is a Whirwind system.
> ...


To quote Pat Brown, "It Depends". With a digital snake or remote interface the analog preamps are at the remote interface prior to the A/D conversion that also occurs there. Whether remote monitoring and/or control of the preamps are supported from the mixer and/or from software depends on the particular snake/interface and the connected mixer. And it can become even more complex if you use a digital snake as a splitter to multiple mixers as how that affects any preamp control and monitoring can also vary between systems and devices.

Typically, using a manufacturer's mixer with their own digital snake or interface may provide remote preamp control. And some 'third-party' digital snakes support remote preamp control from some of the more popular mixers with which they would likely be used. But mixing different snake/interface and mixer manufacturers may mean the audio is compatible but no remote preamp control or monitoring is supported.

For example, the Roland REAC based products all integrate very well with one another but essentially don't play well with others. Use a Roland mixer with REAC with a REC stage box and you will almost certainly have preamp control. But use Roland as a digital snake for anyone else's mixer and the best you can probably do is dedicated software control of the preamps.


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## appsys (Oct 12, 2012)

adonkle said:


> My general thought is that in simple school systems where we sometimes use a portable mixer (school's that insist on locking up the board at night), having a Cat6 connection could be far easier for school teachers/janitors/etc. to connect with (and all patching done in the DSP) instead of fan out snakes and 20+ connections that need to be made each time they want to use the sound system with analog boards.



Dante/AVB is expensive, even if you manage to get mixers with that connectivity for a reasonable price. The point is that you need also a stage box which such connectivity, and that is where you have to spend the $$$$ on....

A more economic alternative is to use a digital mixer with ADAT interface, use a couple of standard mic pres with ADAT connectivity (like Behringer ADA8000's, Focusrite Octopre mkII's) and hook them up via an ADAT-over-Cat5 system, e.g. our ADAT Multicore Extender. This gives you the advantage of a full Cat5 snake at low cost and super-low latency, and interfaces with all ADAT capable mixers. For example, a 24x8 system with a Yamaha 01v96 mixer costs about $1824.-(3*$199 for 3*ADA8000 + 2*$379 for 2 ADX-32B extenders + $469.- for one MY16-AT card). 

There's even the possibility to add remote control for the preamps if you don't mind to do some modding: gain control via MIDI can be added to most preamps using our Remote Gain Control Modkit (extra $399.-). 

Please feel free to drop me an email at [email protected], I'm happy to advise!


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## MNicolai (Oct 12, 2012)

appsys said:


> Dante/AVB is expensive, even if you manage to get mixers with that connectivity for a reasonable price. The point is that you need also a stage box which such connectivity, and that is where you have to spend the $$$$ on....



Actually, I've found that not to always be the case. If by going the route of digital you choose not to install all of the analog infrastructure, that's a heck of a lot less copper to install and can noticeably reduce installation costs if analog infrastructure is not already present.

In portable applications, it can also save a lot of money or at least break even if by purchasing stage boxes, you then do not have to buy 150', 200', or 300' snakes.

Even in installed applications, you would be able to roll the stage boxes out right next to the band and wouldn't need all of the cabling and snakes to get onstage from your off-stage patch panels.

As for CAT5E v. CAT6, choose wisely. Dante supposedly works over both, but our Yamaha rep said that he has heard at least one anecdote where at longer distances, CAT5E worked better for Dante than CAT6.


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## AlexDonkle (Oct 13, 2012)

MNicolai said:


> As for CAT5E v. CAT6, choose wisely. Dante supposedly works over both, but our Yamaha rep said that he has heard at least one anecdote where at longer distances, CAT5E worked better for Dante than CAT6.



I would be very cautious of that rep then. I could believe SHIELDED Cat5e may perform better than unshielded Cat6, but there's absolutely no reason Cat5e would outperform Cat6 when all other variables are equal.


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## museav (Oct 13, 2012)

appsys said:


> There's even the possibility to add remote control for the preamps if you don't mind to do some modding: gain control via MIDI can be added to most preamps using our Remote Gain Control Modkit (extra $399.-)


An option for some situations but one that would not usually be appropriate or practical for installed systems in schools. And while it offers gain control, it does not seem to provide any feedback such as signal presence or clip indicators, which I feel severely limit its value in applications like the one being discussed.


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## MNicolai (Oct 13, 2012)

adonkle said:


> I would be very cautious of that rep then. I could believe SHIELDED Cat5e may perform better than unshielded Cat6, but there's absolutely no reason Cat5e would outperform Cat6 when all other variables are equal.



These signals are not impervious. There are length limitations on how far you can run a data line between a Dante device and the next device in the chain. I forget what our rep said these were because they were a fringe-detail in that the length is so long very few will ever have trouble with it. The anecdote in question came from a customer saying that they personally experienced better performance on CAT5E. Closer to to the cable length limitation, they saw signal dropouts with CAT6.

I'm not a networking engineering nor is the original customer who the anecdote yields from, so I could not argue as to why that may have been the case for them, but nonetheless it was something we were cautioned against.


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## appsys (Oct 14, 2012)

museav said:


> An option for some situations but one that would not usually be appropriate or practical for installed systems in schools. And while it offers gain control, it does not seem to provide any feedback such as signal presence or clip indicators, which I feel severely limit its value in applications like the one being discussed.



If you have a digital mixer which features metering of the inputs, you can use this for FOH presence indication and also clip control (if the analog signal is clipping on the preamp, you can see this also in the digital signal - it's on the upper end of the scale).


Regarding the Cat5 vs. Cat6 discussion: From a technical point of view, there is absolutely _no_ reason why Cat5 should function better than Cat6. Dante uses gigabit ethernet, and - as long as the cabling is correct in terms of contacts and twisting the right pairs together - it does not care about the cable. The "CatX" specification indicates some electrical chararcteristics of the cable, but any Cat5, Cat5e, Cat6, Cat6e and Cat7 can be used for gigabit ethernet. 
Higher "numbers" indicate better electrical parameters.


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