# Ray From Bermuda



## OnTheRock (Dec 21, 2007)

Hi there,

I'm living and working bermdua. At the beginning of this year, I joined up with Bermuda Musical and Drama Society, www.bmds.bm, to see if I could help out with lights. Something I've never done before. But what the heck.

After helping out with a number of shows to start, I 'firsted' and 'soloed' on Moliere's Sisterhood.

My thoughts on the whole adventure:
http://www.oneunified.net/blog/Personal/Lighting/index.blog

My second show, which was a blast, was '24 hours to curtain', where starting at 6 pm on Friday, six writers come in, write a ten minute play and have it ready for 8am saturday morning. The actors and directors come in then learn their lines, sound and lights come in read the scripts and put together some edits. The six plays get done at 8pm Saturday night. I was totally amazed at the actors being able to pull that off, off book. Out of about 20 actors and actresses, only one was out of his element.

The last show of this year I was co-LD on was a Jack and the Beanstalk Panto. A Panto is popular in the UK, but I'm not sure the US and CDN in this group will be too familiar with it. Any way, I wasn't too happy on the production on this one, as there was no 'dark' time to really do anything with lights. The script was last minute, stage settings were last minute, and costumes were last minute. I'm promised next year will be much better.

One question to start. I've been thinking of acquiring some moving lights and use them to make a light show done to music. After that, I'd like to use them in the theatre (where the players aren't miked or anything). How loud are modern moving heads (movement and fan wise)? Are they suitable for their adjustability, lighting, and gobo effects in small environment?

Ray.


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## avkid (Dec 21, 2007)

That multi play program sounds great, concept to opening night in 24 hours is unimaginable for most playwrights. 
If you want quiet moving lights of good expect to be spending about $1,500 US per at the very least.


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## gafftaper (Dec 21, 2007)

Welcome to the Booth! Sounds like you are having a lot of fun. I would love to see some Panto. I'm a big fan of Commedia... it's ancient ancestor and it would be fun to see what the Brits have done with it over the years. But alas in the U.S. Pantomime has been reduced to only silent mime work. Which don't get me wrong is fabulous in the hands of a master. I got to see "Fool Moon" with Bill Irwin and David Shiner a few years back. It was AMAZING! 

As for your question. There are really only two moving light products that were really designed for theater application. The ETC Revolution and the Vari Lite VL1000. Use the search function there have been lots of discussions of them here. Most folks are VL1000 fans the big factor is that they have CMY vs. a gel scroller in the Revolution. But I think you can get revolutions for around $2500 vs. $5000 on the VL. Like I said there have been several really good threads comparing the two so do some reading first then feel free to post a follow up question in one of the old threads, a new one, or here. 

Other options:
If you want to just have some color changing ability and the movement isn't that big of a deal. Consider some Ocean Optics Seachangers or gel scrollers for your existing gear. To add just movement consider Apollo Right Arm or Rosco I-cue. If you've got $10,000 each to blow and you want top of the line, take a look at the Martin Mac700 it's a very powerful yet quiet instrument that sees a lot of theater use.


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## phil000 (Dec 21, 2007)

First off, welcome to controlbooth.

I support the idea of adding color changing ability vs. a full blown mover. However, Seachangers are not exactly cheap either, mind you they can get a lot of great colors...but not cheap.

The ETC revolution is slow. It's just, bad. 

We used 2 High End studio spot 250s for our production of Hair in our 500 seat auditorium, and were able to do some really cool stuff with them. The noise was not an issue for our production, but then again, Hair isn't exactly a quiet show. However we also used the 250 wash fixture with unmic'ed actors for peterpan, and that worked rather well out in an out door space, which was much smaller. 

If I recall, they are also real friendly with DMX, 3 or 5 pin.

They disassemble real easily, and after maybe 5 minutes with a really smart guy looking over my shoulder, I felt comfortable working with them, it's all on wheels, that can be removed with a star driver...we had to replace one or two motors all summer, in a humid outdoor summer environment.

Mind you, they are halide, so they will slice through your normal incandescents but they're pretty nice as opposed to using meteor mirrors (not DMX friendly, and a general PAIN to make work).

Phil

You wouldn't happen to know any of the boys from AA sound wouldya?


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## soundlight (Dec 21, 2007)

Welcome aboard! There's been probably over a dozen discussions about moving heads recently, with many coming out on the market from different companies, people asking about different brands, and about what lights are the best for different wattages and types. Do some searching, it'll save you alot of time.


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## icewolf08 (Dec 22, 2007)

Welcome aboard, glad to have you. Ask questions, answer when you can, and I am sure you'll enjoy it here.

I will take the other side of Revolution vs. VL argument. Granted, I would love to have VLs mostly for the CMY functionality, but I have Revs. They are really not bad units, and for the cost it is hard to beat. They are slow and heavy, but they get the job done and they look almost exactly the same (beam-wise) as a source four zoom. The modular features are nice since you can only get the VL in shutters OR iris, but you can't have both. You also buy into ETCs renowned customer service. VL has a pretty big name though. Ultimately on either side you could be happy.

On the other hand there are plenty of choices in moving lights these days, so it helps to know the application and what your space is like.


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## Van (Dec 22, 2007)

Welcome aboard!
Sounds like you're going to enjoy it here. There are a ton of folks with the knowledge you seek. It also sound like you're involved in a very cool group down there, I can't wait to check out the links. Welcome, Ask what you want answer what you can.


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## derekleffew (Dec 22, 2007)

icewolf08 said:


> ...Granted, I would love to have VLs mostly for the CMY functionality, but I have Revs....


ETC actually touts the scroller of the SourceFour Revolution™ as one of its benefits, as the gel will match exactly the rest of the conventionals. I don't know how many shows actually use a custom scroll for each production, but I doubt that is that common, except in an open-run productions.

I'm surprised someone hasn't mentioned a color mixing scroller, such as Wybron CXI, Morpheus ColorFader, or ChromaQ Cascade. More cost effective than a SeaChanger, in my opinion.


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## gafftaper (Dec 22, 2007)

derekleffew said:


> ETC actually touts the scroller of the SourceFour Revolution™ as one of its benefits, as the gel will match exactly the rest of the conventionals. I don't know how many shows actually use a custom scroll for each production, but I doubt that is that common, except in an open-run productions.
> I'm surprised someone hasn't mentioned a color mixing scroller, such as Wybron CXI, Morpheus ColorFader, or ChromaQ Cascade. More cost effective than a SeaChanger, in my opinion.



Hey I mentioned scrollers... barely. Hey Ray a critical point to consider is if you want them to be tungsten lamps or not. If you want tungsten then you are limited to the Rev, VL1000, and Mac T1W (wash),... and I think Robe has a wash unit... thats about it. If you go with just about anything else it's going to be a totally different color temperature. Granted there is almost always a CTO filter option that will correct it, but it's going to be harder to get it to really match up with the rest of your gear.

Most people I've talked to how complain about the Rev's are trying to use them for music. If your goal is a moving light for theater and not concert purposes then you will probably be happy (like Icewolf above). They are freakin huge and they are designed as a tool for theater, not concerts so they move a little slow compared to concert gear. Silarly somepeople complain about Seachangers taking too long to change colors. Again, it's a theater device not a convert device.


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## derekleffew (Dec 22, 2007)

gafftaper said:


> Hey I mentioned scrollers... barely. Hey Ray a critical point to consider is if you want them to be tungsten lamps or not. If you want tungsten then you are limited to the Rev, VL1000, and Mac T1W (wash),... and I think Robe has a wash unit... thats about it. ...


I thought I'd heard it somewhere. But there's not been much discussion on CB re: color mixing scrollers.

Don't forget the VL500 80V Wash, possibly the best tungsten wash light available. I haven't seen the Martin MAC TW1™.


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## OnTheRock (Dec 22, 2007)

Many have been talking about the scrollers. All well and nice, but I currently have a fixation on heads with CMY capability. Something with gobos is a bonus. I've had experience with ColorCommands where I can dial in any color I like. Now that I've been spoiled that way, I see the benefit of dialling in a color based upon someone's costume or a set backdrop without running around matching gels and such.

We have a 126 seat theatre, which is generally sold out for any of our shows, which run 8 to 10 days. As mentioned before, productions are unmic'd. So fan noise is a consideration. If movement noise is too much, then the moving lights would be static till scene changes. The ColorCommands are noticeably noisy when rapidly changing colors, but are good for slow transitions.

I've seen some Elation Design Spot 575E's, which are decked out with CMY, rotating gobos, zoom, focus, etc. Anyone play with those? I'm kind of drooling over them. I'm going to have to supplement with static fixtures like PAR and Source Fours, but a couple 575E's might add some pizzaz.


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## icewolf08 (Dec 22, 2007)

OnTheRock said:


> I've seen some Elation Design Spot 575E's, which are decked out with CMY, rotating gobos, zoom, focus, etc. Anyone play with those? I'm kind of drooling over them. I'm going to have to supplement with static fixtures like PAR and Source Fours, but a couple 575E's might add some pizzaz.


The Elation fixtures are nice, I own two of the Elation Design Spot 575E's big brothers, the PowerSpot 700 CMY. They work very well, and I have a fairly extensive review on here somewhere. The nice thing about the Elation fixtures is that you can adjust the fan speed (I would imagine you can do this on other fixtures as well). It has a setting where it will stay in low, but kick up only as needed.

I wanted to also mention that I heard a rumor that Apollo is working on a color mixing scroller. I bet Kelite can substantiate that if it is true.


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## soundlight (Dec 22, 2007)

OnTheRock said:


> I've seen some Elation Design Spot 575E's, which are decked out with CMY, rotating gobos, zoom, focus, etc. Anyone play with those? I'm kind of drooling over them. I'm going to have to supplement with static fixtures like PAR and Source Fours, but a couple 575E's might add some pizzaz.


These are probably your cheapest option that's worth it in terms of CMY heads with nice featuresets. Elation gear is becoming better and better with each new product, so you may want to wait and see what this year's fixture line has to bring (there's a thread on the new fixtures around here somewhere).


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## OnTheRock (Dec 22, 2007)

Can anyone, who owns and elation 575e, make any comment as to their fan sounds and movement sounds?

Also, in another thread, I did read about Seachangers for the Source Fours. That sounds like an interesting thing, as we do have Source Fours in various beam widths. I'll have to give up on the movement, but at least I get the color dialability, which I think people would appreciate for a light show.


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## soundlight (Dec 22, 2007)

You don't have to give up movement, get a Rosco I-Cue or Apollo Right Arm with it to have it move.


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## gafftaper (Dec 22, 2007)

Yeah the Seachanger/gel scroller with an I-cue/Right Arm is a great way to start into the intelligent gear world using your existing equipment. The negative is that it's not as fast at moving or changing colors as a pro light is... so again. It's a good option for theater and musical theater but if you want to do concert lighting where the lights snap to different colors and dance around, you'll probably be disappointed. 

Elation used to be a low end discount product (like American DJ and Chauvet). They have been working really hard to improve their reputation in the industry. A couple years ago they hired one of the top guys from a another lighting company. They are trying to establish themselves as a lower priced alternative that isn't junk and have been very successful at it. As he said, Icewolf has a couple of their Powerspot 700's and he's been quite happy with them. Do a little searching for his reviews. (Bill if you are reading this can you get us a M.A.P. price on the 575 and 700?) 

Another serious issue to consider before stepping up into the intelligent world is that status of your control console. Can it realistically handle the gear you want to buy?


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## OnTheRock (Dec 22, 2007)

gafftaper said:


> Another serious issue to consider before stepping up into the intelligent world is that status of your control console. Can it realistically handle the gear you want to buy?



The theatre had a Strand board of some sort. Around the time I started, but was a relatively noob, they went and got an ETC Express 72. The regular folks like that. I arrived a little late on the scene to direct them into something different.

Me, always being different, and after some research, downloaded LightFactory, purchased a 1 Universe license, picked up a two Enttec USB/DMX Pro converters, and an Enttec Playback wing. I've set up and run three shows with that config. With each show I introduce myself to more and more functionality. I see in it good setups and effects for moving lights. 

After running a few shows off my own laptop, they went ahead a purchased a dedicated laptop for LightFactory. Lightfactory has a telnet interface, and a supplied program for a Pocket PC. Sitting up in the lighting grid and remotely controlling the fixtures wirelessly when all I had was me, myself, and I, was a true performance enhancer. A recent pocket pc version supposdedly has a dedicated screen for cue GO and BACK, so I can step a show from various locations in the house for test purposes.

That is the long way of saying, yes, I think my gear can handle the moving lights and other toys.


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## OnTheRock (Dec 22, 2007)

charcoaldabs said:


> I believe you could get a RRFU for your express, or at least an RFU.


Well, if the 'old folks' want a remote, they can get one. When I do a show, I haul the Express to the back closet, put my laptop down, and poof, suddenly all sorts of desk space becomes available! And way more flexibility. Have you ever tried to delete a cue on an Express? I couldn't. Some sort of magic finger dance: menu, S6, scroll, click, ... whatever, whatever, whatever, no thank you. I like my Windows GUI with a layout window, multiple show runners, moving path makers, and effects editors, and... named cues.


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## OnTheRock (Dec 22, 2007)

charcoaldabs said:


> Wait... I don't have the power for the number of S4s I'm envisioning...



You could always propose a gig for the local power plant. They should have a few extra megawatts on tap for your own local Wizards of Winter exposition!


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## derekleffew (Dec 22, 2007)

OnTheRock, check out this thread. (Dang, that's not exactly the thread I thought it was. Anyone want to post the link to the thread I'm thinking of?) Most of us were against using a PC as a LightBoard, for various reasons, but if it works for you, great. The toys are only tools, it's the light onstage that matters.


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## OnTheRock (Dec 22, 2007)

derekleffew said:


> Most of us were against using a PC as a LightBoard, for various reasons, but if it works for you, great.



When someone finds it, let me know. I was thinking though, that size may matter. My primary venue has 48 dimmer channels for light fixtures. Our Christmas Venue has about 200 dimmer channels, with may be 60 or 100 actively used.

Perhaps control surfaces work better with larger build outs. Or vice versa. No personal experience in the larger worlds.


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## icewolf08 (Dec 22, 2007)

derekleffew said:


> OnTheRock, check out this thread. (Dang, that's not exactly the thread I thought it was. Anyone want to post the link to the thread I'm thinking of?) Most of us were against using a PC as a LightBoard, for various reasons, but if it works for you, great. The toys are only tools, it's the light onstage that matters.


Derek, in that thread to which you refer, I think the biggest conclusion was that if your PC is dedicated to only running lights and nothing else then you should be fine. This means no internet, no games, no word processing, just lights.


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## derekleffew (Dec 22, 2007)

You are correct, icewolf08. That was the general consensus of the thread. 

My major point, and OnTheRock may be proving me wrong, was that Programming lights using a dedicated "control surface" is ALWAYS going to be faster than using a keyboard and mouse.I'm certainly open to more discussion on this, providing the discussion is apples to apples, and not Express to LightFactory. OnTheRock, I bet you'd like LightFactory even more if it had a touchscreen, correct? Hog3, Maxxyz, Vista, and grandMA all allow you to arrange groups/fixtures in a graphical manner onscreen, but are also all out of your price range, though PC-based solutions are available from most.


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## gafftaper (Dec 22, 2007)

Don't give up on the Express... it's the number one selling console in history for a reason. Yeah the 72 is a huge board, and it's not the easiest board for intelligent gear, but for standard conventional lighting it's VERY hard to beat. In my opinion they made a wise choice when they purchased it. These days there are some excellent new options, but a few years ago, that was pretty much the best there was for community theater. As Derek said, someone who's got some experience programing on it can knock your socks off with the speed they can program. Not that I'm at all anti-pc based lighting... I'm a big fan of the Horizon software. But you've got a very powerful machine in your closet. You would be surprised what you can do with it given some time. 

As for deleting a cue... first off you just record over the bad one. If you really need to delete it, yeah it takes a couple steps, but it's not that hard to learn ...and they buried that delete button for a good reason if you think about it.


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## OnTheRock (Dec 22, 2007)

gafftaper said:


> Don't give up on the Express... it's the number one selling console in history for a reason. Yeah the 72 is a huge board, and it's not the easiest board for intelligent gear, but for standard conventional lighting it's VERY hard to beat. In my opinion they made a wise choice when they purchased it.



Thanx for the thumbs up. It is good to know. It worked well on the shows we used it for. The other LD's of the theatre have worked out many of its abilities.

On the other hand, I was getting tired of remember macros and numbers. I wanted something where I could name channels, groups, submasters, palettes, effects, and then look them up mnemonically as needed when I needed to put my puzzle pieces together into something resembling a properly cue'd show. (I'm a software programmer in my real job, among other things, so am more amenable to well labelled 'objects', and can type well enough to bring it off when describing lighting channels, submasters, shortcuts, and groups). To each his own, I suppose.

I think we have good value for the software. It is under continuous development. It may not match Hog, et al, but as you say, it works for our budget.

The way the screens in the software are layed out, you can run it with touch screens. Maybe not all the programming, but in scene setting, the touch screens with submasters and shortcuts would work admirably. And as it accepts DMX in, regular control surfaces can supply the equivalent of 1000 submasters.

It might be interesting to meet at a conference sometime, and do a programming bake-off with various control surfaces and software. Obviously, it would be a talent*time comparison, but that just adds more competition to finding the shortcuts and conveying the tricks of the trade.


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## OnTheRock (Dec 22, 2007)

derekleffew said:


> My major point, and OnTheRock may be proving me wrong, was that Programming lights using a dedicated "control surface" is ALWAYS going to be faster than using a keyboard and mouse.I'm certainly open to more discussion on this, providing the discussion is apples to apples, and not Express to LightFactory.



Another thing I like about this configuration, is that I can spool my DMX cable down to the stage, along with my laptop, and with the director, crew boss, electrician, and SM present, ask the players whether they can find their light, or whether I should move it. And then program things right then and there. And when done, walk up to the ControlBooth and get the bird's eye again.

Back ups, back ups, back ups when doing this type of portable scenario.

I have a nice laptop with a 1900 x 1200 screen, so I can fit lots of stuff onto the screen without using a side monitor, which I could do if I want, and then have that as the touch screen input with the shortcut lists and submasters. Or use the Enttec Playback, which maps 100 sliders onto 10 with a page up/down key, which is synced with labelled on-laptop legends.

And no, I don't work for LightFactory, but am just opening this up for discussion to see what similar things there are in low, mid, and high range packages. And to find out what I'm really missing out on in the 'real world'.


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## gafftaper (Dec 23, 2007)

A lot of the things you are talking about are now standard products on the newest consoles from both ETC and Strand. As well as the moving consoles mentioned earlier (GrandMA etc..). The Express is the left over king of the last generation of consoles that isn't going away any time soon. In the last 3 years a new generation of consoles has been released. The newer consoles like to keyboards, mice, and touch screens and have many flexible abilities to do lots of regrouping and renaming like you mentioned. 

Horizon has been one of the best computer based lighting programs available for a while. All the new consoles from Strand are now based on Horizon software. So many of the traditional computer based lighting software features you are describing are now at the core of the software of a very traditional looking console (and you can plug in a laptop to use as a design remote too). ETC's new generation of consoles seem to be more influenced by the high end moving light console market. However the end result is similar, they have a lot more flexibility but it's a different feel.


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## Hughesie (Dec 23, 2007)

welcome to controlbooth, im a sound person so i can't say anything else really on the subject at hand


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## gafftaper (Dec 23, 2007)

Hughesie89 said:


> welcome to controlbooth, im a sound person so i can't say anything else really on the subject at hand



I just want to point out that we do allow sound people to speak on other topics... we even have an old geezer we let out of the scene shop to express an opinion once in a while.


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## avkid (Dec 23, 2007)

gafftaper said:


> we even have an old geezer we let out of the scene shop to express an opinion once in a while.


Let him out, ha!
He picks the lock.


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## gafftaper (Dec 23, 2007)

avkid said:


> Let him out, ha!
> He picks the lock.


No, he's got to stay in there until he makes me a batch of VSSD.

Merry Christmas Van!


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