# Has anyone found anything conclusive on the safety of GLYCEROL based haze with relation to viral loads?



## alich (Nov 5, 2020)

There are quite a few websites that are all claiming that haze is safe to use without regard to potential viral load in the air.
All of these sites are somehow tied to haze fluid manufacturers. They also all cite “_Factors of Importance in the Use of Triethylene Glycol Vapor for Aerial Disenfiection” by William Lester et al, 1950 UChicago._

The biggest problem I have with this is that this citation seems to be extrapolating without really explaining why. 
The report is looking at the effects of pure triethylene glycol vapor in a controlled setting, key emphasis on pure. I can’t find anything in the article that suggests that the glycol is cut with water, as it is in theatrical units.

Quite the opposite I've found a few reports from the medical field where they've specifically used aerosolized glycerol to imitate human respiratory droplets to figure out how COVID can hitch a ride on it. 

Has anyone found any concrete reports that focus specifically on glycer/in water based products, not glycol based products?


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## TimMc (Nov 5, 2020)

So what's the question? Does the novel coronavirus bind to atomized glycerols or glycols? Does the glycol or glycerol modify the lipid layer of the virus and disable its transmissibility?


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## EdSavoie (Nov 5, 2020)

My understanding was that it "pops" the membrane much in the same way soap does, but I could be mistaken on that part


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## JimOC_1 (Nov 6, 2020)

Glycerol is often used as a stabilizer in biology so alich’s request for concrete reports is helpful.


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## EdSavoie (Nov 6, 2020)

Oh my apologies, I misread that you were specifically looking at glycerol based haze. My comment was really directed at Glycol, I don't personally know of much research on Glycerol haze specifically


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## TimMc (Nov 7, 2020)

Here's my take: if it's not on EPA List "N", it's not a listed disinfectant. I'm still not clear on what the actual question about glycerol is, though.


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## Scarrgo (Nov 9, 2020)

I wonder if OP is asking,

Does the ingredients in haze fluid, spread/stop/ignore/annoy/slow/speed up/etc.... the spread of Covid-19 ?

or after reading again..

I could be wrong, but my take...


Sean...


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## Allana (Nov 11, 2020)

I last looked into this in October, related to a claim that Monona Rossol made in a presentation. Here is what I found and submitted to my bosses:


> Here are some studies related to Pollution and covid. The part that feels most important to us is the increased transmission rates of covid in polluted air (15%-22% depending on size of particles) and how that might suggest that theatrical atmospherics would increase potential transmission and severity of impact.
> Although there has been no official studies on theatrical atmospherics And covid (there has hardly been any studies at all on theatrical atmospherics, honestly), I recommend that we Do Not allow fog/haze around our audience or staff until we have more information.
> 
> https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/c-change/subtopics/coronavirus-and-pollution/
> ...


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## Vivilama (Feb 16, 2021)

So I was using water-based almost daily to test my setting. On New Year’s Eve I felt sick and It turned out it was a viral infection. After a week it cured but I got a bacterial infection in my lungs. It was treated with antibiotics but didn’t heal completely so I had to take more antibiotics. After it healed I noticed that I was still coughing a lot and my lungs felt weird. I worried it could have been COVID but the test was negative. Yesterday I went to a different doctor to check my lungs and he discovered my airflow is reduced between normal person and heavy smoker. I do not smoke,never have. I was diagnosed with mild asthma and he thinks it could be due to an allergic reaction to something. The mild asthma could have been already there since I always lost my voice when someone was smoking. But I think it was the fog machine fluid that caused the current inflammation.
To be fair when I looked at the fluid’s bottle( Antari) I saw it was already expired for a year. On top of that my smoke machine was also a cheap no-name. So all of the sudden it rang a bell. I told my doctor about glycol, but he said there is nothing he can do to know. After that, I did a lot of research and I think that the term “water based” and what the manufacturer write in their descriptions “ safe” is misleading and wrong! Non professional might think that it’s absolutely safe because itsThey should write “ do not use if expired”
I tried to find out how oil based fluids are made but to my surprise I couldn’t find a single article. It’s all water based glycol. 
I contacted Antari 3 times with no reply!


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## JimOC_1 (Feb 16, 2021)

You cold look to see if there is a USP for food grade or pharmaceutical grade. I see that you may be interested in looking to see if there are JP grades (_Japanese_ Pharmacopoeia).


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## Vivilama (Feb 16, 2021)

JimOC_1 said:


> You cold look to see if there is a USP for food grade or pharmaceutical grade. I see that you may be interested in looking to see if there are JP grades (_Japanese_ Pharmacopoeia).


I am sorry but I am not familiar with those terms. USP? Japanese grade? I read the Rosco evaluation on health effects. But it doesn’t help in my case. I read oil based juice is made from mineral oil. Are they all food grade? If not what are they? Especially the ones from Antari. I worry a bit since it’s a Chinese company if I am correct.


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## TimMc (Feb 16, 2021)

United States Pharmacopeia. A standard for grading certain chemicals, among other things.


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## Vivilama (Feb 17, 2021)

My apologies if I am asking stupid questions. I am fairly new to all this and never bothered looking into fog machine’s safety topics as I was mislead by the term water-based and most sources speak of “harmless”. Ironically I avoided oil based for the same reason, thinking it must be bad. But if I understand correctly, glycol is worse as it reduces oxygen 

so I found this:

“In the United States, the Occupational Safety and Health Administrationhas set the legal limit for mineral oil mist exposure in the workplace as 5 mg/m3 over an 8-hour workday, the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health has set a recommended exposure limit of 5 mg/m3”

I do not have a measuring device. But could someone give me a rough idea of how much haze we are talking about in the case of 5mg/m3?
Is that amount hardly visible or quite dense ( even with indirect lighting or daylight? It speaks of 8h exposure. In my case it’s mostly 2h and in a room of about 90 m2. I have an Antari HZ100 which I realized is overkill for my purpose. A haze spray can would probably have been best but it’s nowhere available here in Japan.


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## Malabaristo (Feb 17, 2021)

Vivilama said:


> To be fair when I looked at the fluid’s bottle( Antari) I saw it was already expired for a year. On top of that my smoke machine was also a cheap no-name.



This may actually be your main problem. Glycol based fog fluids are generally considered safe, but that's assuming they're being used as intended. The Antari fluid may be the wrong type for the generic fog machine, or the generic fog machine may just suck at regulating its temperature. Where you really run into trouble is when the heat exchanger in the machine is too hot for a particular type of fluid. That can essentially burn the fluid and you end up spitting out nasty decomposition products that are more likely to cause irritation than a proper fog. This is the reason that most fog machine manufacturers warn about only using their fluid in their machines. Yeah, they want to make money off of the fluid sales, but they also want to avoid the health risks that can come from using a fluid that doesn't match the specs for their machines.

Of course, very heavy use of even properly generated fog can be irritating, and different people can be more or less sensitive to it. ESTA & the Actor's Equity Association have time and density guidelines for fog/smoke/haze/etc to help keep things in a range that won't cause problems for an average person. For those that are sensitive, it's usually not just fog, but dust and other environmental irritants will have the same effect (as you noticed with cigarette smoke).


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## Allana (Feb 17, 2021)

I'm sorry you are having those adverse health effects. I want to second what Malabaristo said about making sure you are using the type of fog/haze fluid designed for that machine.
There have not been a lot of studies on the health effects of fog/haze. Part of the challenge, as you said, is trying to control how much is aerosolized- which varies extensively by venue, HVAC, fluid, and machine settings.
Its quite possible you'll have long-term effects so I'd try, as much as reasonable, to avoid exposing yourself to irritants (or at least things that irritate you).
Use only as much haze as you need to get the job done.
Or find ways to not use haze. Or not be in a room with haze. (especially during covid).

One last thing, it is not uncommon to be mislead by labels that claim safety. People are commonly mislead in advertising with words like "organic" or "green" or "water-based". Know that the company is motivated to do whatever they can to sell you the product. There is little regulation (or enforcement) in this kind of stuff.

Atmospherics safety is one of Monona Rossol's (many) pet peeves. You might want to reach out to her or join her newsletter for more info about fog/haze safety.




ACTS: health, safety and industrial hygiene for the arts

ACTS is a non-profit organization providing industrial hygiene data on health and safety hazards in the arts, crafts, and theater.


artscraftstheatersafety.org


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