# Teach @Dagger Rigging.



## Dagger (May 12, 2016)

Can you guys post some pics of bridled points 

I always take pics of how things are rigged but lost them . 

I need to look at some pics of bridled points ( with and without deck chain ) to use as a reference 

Thanks a lot !


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## Dagger (May 12, 2016)

Also how do I calculate how much weight each suspension point is taking ?

Can I refer to this chart ?


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## BillConnerFASTC (May 13, 2016)

It's nice theory but beyond two points it depends upon the coordination of the picks. Counterweight lineset is pretty simple with it being level but testing and empirical experience says that chain motors are not close to moving equally, at least without monitoring load cells.

Or is your point the rig is not symmetrical - I can't tell as I can't see right end of load in pics.


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## MNicolai (May 13, 2016)

It's not the most sexworthy rigging I've ever seen in terms of aesthetics.

Also not wild about how close that far left spanset is to the end of the pipe.


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## Scarrgo (May 13, 2016)

I looks like that its two scaffolding cross pipes(cant remember what they are actually called)...I would think that if one of those wedges came loose, it could turn ugly...


Sean...


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## Dagger (May 14, 2016)

instead of using a stinger 

Can I use 2 deck chains to make bridle?


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## Footer (May 14, 2016)

The stinger has nothing to do with the bridle... the stinger is what comes down from the point the two bridle legs make... Yes, you could use a deck chain on a stinger but... why would you? If you need to add 3' adding 5' makes no real difference unless your in a ball room where every foot counts or at the very end of your chain travel and have a very high trim. 

Now if your asking if you can use deck chains only as legs for a bridle... the answer is yes but its going to be one expensive and heavy leg. The only place you should not be using deck chains is to make baskets. They are not meant for that. 

Why are you asking....


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## Dagger (May 15, 2016)

this rig


With limited hadware (ex no deck chain )

Are usage of gac flex to make s bridle acceptable?

Choke on high steel both beams 
And connect them with a shackle.


Emphasis is on limited hardware 

What other options are there?


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## Dagger (May 15, 2016)

Can I motor be hanged
Like this?


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## Footer (May 15, 2016)

You need to get your terminology right. A bridle is the connecting method between two beams to make a point where one does not exist. Your 1st picture is basically a dead hang. No bridles there. Your second picture is just scary. In fact, both pictures are scary. 

You can hit steel with gac flex. Nothing stopping you there. However, you should never be choking building steel. You should be doing that in a basket configuration. You should also not be building baskets with deck chain. Chain is not meant to be side loaded. 

The reason steel is used overhead is simply a matter of cost. A 6' piece of Gacflex costs 50 bucks. A 5' piece of 1/2" GAC terminated costs 20. You gain nothing by going with the more expensive option. 

Finally, this posts and the last several you have done in the vein are rather concerning to me. You should never rig with "limited hardware" or "in a pinch". You either have the stuff to do it right or your don't. If your seeing this on job sites you should find another gig. If you are being asked to do this without the right gear you should make the proper calls to get the right stuff or get out of dodge.


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## bobgaggle (May 16, 2016)

Scarrgo said:


> It looks like that its two scaffolding cross pipes



Agree, looks like ring lock scaffolding pieced together. Scary. Dagger what are all these photos from? Are you rigging this?


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## Dagger (May 16, 2016)

bobgaggle said:


> Agree, looks like ring lock scaffolding pieced together. Scary. Dagger what are all these photos from? Are you rigging this?



No , I am not the rigger for those 
I work on those gigs as an AV tech,
I just took pics .


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## rochem (May 16, 2016)

Footer said:


> Finally, this posts and the last several you have done in the vein are rather concerning to me. You should never rig with "limited hardware" or "in a pinch". You either have the stuff to do it right or your don't. If your seeing this on job sites you should find another gig. If you are being asked to do this without the right gear you should make the proper calls to get the right stuff or get out of dodge.



Agreed, I've been watching these with steadily increasing concern. Almost makes me miss the old days when any threads like this would be shut down instantly. Not that I'm advocating going back to that point, but it makes it very clear why that was the policy here for so long.

Dagger, I think we'd all feel a little more comfortable if you'd provide some background behind all of these questions. Looking through your post history, I wonder if maybe you're trying to break into rigging, and posting these questions here is more of a "I saw this on a job, is there a smarter/better/safer way to do it?" If that's the case, I'm sure people would be much more willing to help out and provide constructive criticism. But you have to understand that seeing a hastily-written post about how to rig something with limited resources is going to make a lot of people understandably nervous. If you're actually trying to do what you've written above, and have to ask those questions, then with all due respect, I think you need to find someone more qualified than yourself to do it and/or teach you. Also, not to suggest that learning from books is a suitable substitution for learning on the job, but if you're really interested in this field, Harry Donovan's book Entertainment Rigging provides very detailed answers to a lot of the questions you have, and I'd highly recommend picking up a copy.


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## Dagger (May 16, 2016)

rochem said:


> Agreed, I've been watching these with steadily increasing concern. Almost makes me miss the old days when any threads like this would be shut down instantly. Not that I'm advocating going back to that point, but it makes it very clear why that was the policy here for so long.
> 
> Dagger, I think we'd all feel a little more comfortable if you'd provide some background behind all of these questions. Looking through your post history, I wonder if maybe you're trying to break into rigging, and posting these questions here is more of a "I saw this on a job, is there a smarter/better/safer way to do it?" If that's the case, I'm sure people would be much more willing to help out and provide constructive criticism. But you have to understand that seeing a hastily-written post about how to rig something with limited resources is going to make a lot of people understandably nervous. If you're actually trying to do what you've written above, and have to ask those questions, then with all due respect, I think you need to find someone more qualified than yourself to do it and/or teach you. Also, not to suggest that learning from books is a suitable substitution for learning on the job, but if you're really interested in this field, Harry Donovan's book Entertainment Rigging provides very detailed answers to a lot of the questions you have, and I'd highly recommend picking up a copy.



Like I have said in my other post I have seen it on shows I worked and I thought it looks sketchy .

Just wanted to see people's opinion on wrong things and how to do it properly.


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## josh88 (May 16, 2016)

Dagger said:


> Like I have said in my other post I have seen it on shows I worked and I thought it looks sketchy .
> 
> Just wanted to see people's opinion on wrong things and how to do it properly.


Even with in depth explanations on how to do it properly, you can't teach someone how to rig over the internet. All the math and information aside, you need someone to get hands on with it in person.


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## Footer (May 16, 2016)

Dagger said:


> Can I motor be hanged
> Like this?



http://www.firehouse.com/article/10467950/rigging-for-confined-space-operations

That is the original place that picture is from. Its from a firefighter blog. Not the same thing as what we do. I have a buddy who is a SPRAT III and trains people in tower climbing. He came up through entertainment rigging and get really good at rope access. He still won't fly people. What general industry does and what rescue squads do is very different from what we do. Our tolerance are MUCH higher. General industry rigs 5:1. Rescue squads rig 2:1 to 5:1. We rig 8:1. 10:1 if its over patrons. Don't take info from a firefighter on how to do entertainment rigging. Its not even close to the same thing.


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## TheaterEd (May 17, 2016)

Dagger said:


> Can I motor be hanged
> Like this?


If I recall correctly, a cross loaded carabiner like that is what was at fault for this accident.


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## What Rigger? (May 17, 2016)

Perhaps some more in depth information? Why do you need us to post these pictures? Certainly if you're dealing with this sort of thing you have at least one or two texts to reference? I don't think you're going to get much action with your initial pitch. Help us to help you.


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## RickR (May 18, 2016)

Buy a book. 

Not only do you get photos and diagrams but full explanations of right and wrong. Far better reference than a collection of job photos without organization or context.


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## Dagger (May 18, 2016)

I took this pic just so to see the wrap of the spanset and usage of steel .

I keep looking at it noticed something off.

Do you notice it?
(Scroll down for my thought )








Is the truss sideways ????
Never seen a truss used like that apex should be on the sides not on the top , am I correct?


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## rochem (May 18, 2016)

As I mentioned in another thread, go and buy Harry Donovan's Entertainment Rigging RIGHT NOW. It's expensive, but if you really want to learn this stuff, it's the single best investment you can make in your personal education. Other books such as Glerum's go into more detail about the theory and mathematics behind rigging, but Donovan's is really written for a blue-collar worker - literally hundreds of very clear diagrams, easy-to-understand procedures, and much more grounded in actual "boots-on-the-ground" knowledge than just theory. I just leafed through my copy and found DOZENS of diagrams of different ways to construct bridles, as well as pages and pages of advice for how to deal with a wide range of rigging challenges. Let me be clear - this book is NOT a substitute for hands-on knowledge and learning from actual people in actual situations. But you can find the answer to nearly every question you've posed over the last few days in this book, and reading it will allow you to have a much better understanding of what you're learning while on the job.

And also, just so you know that we're not all being mean by holding out on you, bridles are tools that vary based on the application and venue. Just as you wouldn't get responses to "send me a good lighting design for Beauty and the Beast", there's no one correct way to make bridles. Yes, there are fairly standard ways to do it when you're blessed with excessive trim heights, no weight restrictions, and unlimited gear, but it would be foolhardy, not to mention unsafe, for you to look at a bridle from a 100' arena and try to use that in a 20' gymnasium. Pick up the book, learn the theories behind his diagrams and approaches, and then you'll have a much better idea of where to start when planning your own rigs.


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## derekleffew (May 18, 2016)

Dagger said:


> ...Never seen a truss used like that apex should be on the sides not on the top , am I correct?


Normally yes, but I believe the truss in question* has diagonals on all four surfaces.



BTW, I don't think "apex" is the correct term, as that usually applies to one of the point of triangular truss. 


*If I'm not mistaken, manufacturer Arcofab, as used by Solotech and Christie Lites, among others.


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## Footer (May 18, 2016)

If whoever put the spanset on actually took the time to backup the spanset with steel I highly doubt they choked the truss sideways. That is photo proof that someone out there does backup spansets...


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## rsmentele (May 19, 2016)

I stopped using nylon only spansets a while back for this application, steelflex is all I use. How do you all feel about the use of a backup steel when steelflex is used? Redundant?


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## Dagger (May 19, 2016)

I just
Ordered the book and should be here anytime next week ! Very excited , expensive paid $240


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## Footer (May 19, 2016)

Don't need it when using gacflex.


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## josh88 (May 19, 2016)

Dagger said:


> I just
> Ordered the book and should be here anytime next week ! Very excited , expensive paid $240


Rochem's link had it for $94, after converting to Canadian dollars, thats still almost double. Must be some expensive shipping.


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## Dagger (May 19, 2016)

Shipping is cheap 
$13

The book itself cost $240

On Amazon


Damn I click on riches link


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## josh88 (May 19, 2016)

ouch. 

The .com version of amazon has it for $115 USD


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## Dagger (May 20, 2016)

1)no pics , but same venue ( like the pic I posted in other threads with roof truss)

this time it was deadhang ( 5ft steel and chainfall )

because of the dead hang the chain was rubbing against the low steel when pulling chain up/down.

I thought it was wrong.

I have seen gigs where in order to keep the chain away from the low steel being done like this

( no pics but I made a drawing, )

drawing is off should be a chainfall


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## Dagger (May 20, 2016)

choke on low steel and then up over highsteel attaching a chainfall ( grey circle is a choke0


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## Dagger (May 20, 2016)

2) 6ft spansets were used on truss but no backing it up with 5ft steel..... because the whole truss was safety with 10ft steel on low steel

what you guys think?


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## Dagger (May 20, 2016)

chain rubbing against low steel ( deadhang)


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## DuckJordan (May 21, 2016)

First of those safeties are useless. Second choking low steel and wrapping up and over high steal (in what I'm guessing is a standard expo hall rafter) doesn't eliminate the chain rub. What I like to see is a stinger that drops the hook below low steel so what is rubbing is steel cable on steel beam with a piece of burlap between. (5/8" Steel cable is much stronger side loaded than CM lodestar chain.)


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## Dagger (May 21, 2016)

DuckJordan said:


> First of those safeties are useless. Second choking low steel and wrapping up and over high steal (in what I'm guessing is a standard expo hall rafter) doesn't eliminate the chain rub. What I like to see is a stinger that drops the hook below low steel so what is rubbing is steel cable on steel beam with a piece of burlap between. (5/8" Steel cable is much stronger side loaded than CM lodestar chain.)



If using he 10ft steel for safety around low steel is useless 

How should the safety be for the truss?


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## MNicolai (May 21, 2016)

The problem with suspending off of the bottom chords of truss is that all of the load is being hung off of the welds between the bottom chords and the cross braces. The top chords receive a minimal amount of the load and serve little purpose in this configuration. Whereas if you suspend from the top chords, the load is evenly distributed across all members of the truss because the top chords allow the forces to compress down the bracing, be reinforced by the bottom cords, and while diluting the loads across _all_ of the welds. Not just the bottom half of them.

Think of it this way. If your production truss fell out of the air and got caught by the safeties, would you rather the shock load be applied across the entire frame of the truss or would you rather it just yank on the bottom welds of it?


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## Dagger (May 21, 2016)

MNicolai said:


> The problem with suspending off of the bottom chords of truss is that all of the load is being hung off of the welds between the bottom chords and the cross braces. The top chords receive a minimal amount of the load and serve little purpose in this configuration. Whereas if you suspend from the top chords, the load is evenly distributed across all members of the truss because the top chords allow the forces to compress down the bracing, be reinforced by the bottom cords, and while diluting the loads across _all_ of the welds. Not just the bottom half of them.
> 
> Think of it this way. If your production truss fell out of the air and got caught by the safeties, would you rather the shock load be applied across the entire frame of the truss or would you rather it just yank on the bottom welds of it?



If I understand correctly 
Safety should be wrapped around the high steel and around the top cord of the production truss ?

(Not wrapped around low steel)

Is that correc?

What about the production truss ,safety around top only cord only is okay? Or should the safety be wrapped around the whole production Truss ( top cord and bottom cord) if so i can see the safety sliding out of the production truss .


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## egilson1 (May 21, 2016)

Any safety should be configured in a manner where there is almost no shock load. Basically, the safety should instantly pick up load should the primary fail. In my training class I show an example of a very specific set up where I demonstrate that a poorly implemented safety will fail. 

Another thing about J-bar roof trusses is that they have almost zero lateral stability. Bridling off of them perpendicular to its major axis is a no-no.


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## Dionysus (May 21, 2016)

I commend your interest in rigging. As stated in this and other threads, the internet is NOT the place to learn rigging. I HIGHLY recommend you take a rigging course if you are actually interested in doing rigging.

However there are several good books to read if you are interested that will get you started. Hands on practices cannot be taught though a book or internet post or video, and they are critical to proper and safe rigging.

There is MORE THAN ENOUGH bad rigging out there to begin with unfortunately. So good on you for trying to see if things you have seen are safe, or proper. Perhaps a thread "Rigging I am pretty sure is no good", but I am really not sure what the administration would think of even that.

It is CB policy that no rigging instruction is to be given on this board for the above reasons. The best riggers could try and describe what to do, how to do it and why. People would then read that, think they know what they are doing, and put peoples lives (and property) at risk.


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## Dagger (May 21, 2016)

I am looking for explanations rather than instructions from now

Looking at this pic and from what Posts I read I come to my conclusion ( correct me if I am wrong)

- using pipe or in this case a ledger

It has no strength because there is no top and bottom cord and no connections between them . As well as the pin in the Rosetta comes lose and both ledger disconnects
Is that correct ?


But what I really want to know is in this configuration how much weight is the motors taking and how much weight each point of the ledger ? (let's assume it's a truss instead of a ledger and assume the points on ledger are symmetrical)


Ex . say the video wall weighs 500lbs
So each motor is taking 250 lbs

But how to calculate each point on the ledger?

Starting from left to right

1st point =35 lbs
2nd =95lbs
3rd=75lbs
4th=90 lbs
5th=75lbs
6th=95lbs
7th=35 lbs
( according to the chart )
Because the 2nd and 6th point are the heaviedt the motors are placed closest to them ?

Is that correct?


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## Footer (May 21, 2016)

*I just merged this whole thing into a superthread. @Dagger, use this thread if you have any questions related to rigging from here on out. Thanks. *


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## Dagger (May 29, 2016)

Here's a pic of the roof truss dead hang with chasing fall . My concern is the I bing if the chain against low steel when raising/ lowering chain.

Someone suggested using a stinger . 

Does rubbing the chain against low steel does wear out the chain ,right ?

Having the chain fall below low steel Not sure if it will give us the desired trim height


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## Dagger (May 29, 2016)

the spanset is not connected to a panel point . I have read in Harry Donovan's book the apex is the safest place to choke .

But given the location of the chain falls and the spanset must be choked in nonpanel point . Otherwise it torques the chain fall


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## Dagger (May 29, 2016)

Can someone explain this chatmet to me 

I don't quite understand I am looking at this pic With the truss and trying to apply the Christine LITES truss load table


From point left to point right looks like 34ft (8' truss x 4 sections + 2')

How can I use that info and apply it to the table ( what is load ( plf), what is Deflection (in),?

What is the maximum weight I can put into the left side 4 ft of the motor and vice versa? 

Shouldn't there be a 3 Rd motor in the centre of the truss?


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## Footer (May 29, 2016)

The max weight you can put on the cantilever depends on how much weight is on the rest of the system. Every load needs to be figured in. When you get your Donavan book start reading. The math is in there. That chart is useless unless you know how to apply the numbers you are reading. There is way to much to go into here on that. Harry and Delbert Hall can teach the math.


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## porkchop (Jun 2, 2016)

Dagger said:


> Here's a pic of the roof truss dead hang with chasing fall . My concern is the I bing if the chain against low steel when raising/ lowering chain.
> 
> Someone suggested using a stinger .
> 
> ...



Chain rub is a concern for long term life, but for a single application (assuming they're not always used this way) I'd be more concerned with damage to the I-beam. Well maintained chain will be fine after you rub it LIGHTLY against a beam a few times. 

As far as choking at the apex goes, yes it's best practice to choke on the apex. That being said often that is not always an option. Making usual assumptions about not pressing the limits of rigging equipment, the placement of the spansets in your pictures would not have concerned me if I was there for the rig.


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## porkchop (Jun 2, 2016)

Footer said:


> The max weight you can put on the cantilever depends on how much weight is on the rest of the system. Every load needs to be figured in. When you get your Donavan book start reading. The math is in there. That chart is useless unless you know how to apply the numbers you are reading. There is way to much to go into here on that. Harry and Delbert Hall can teach the math.



I don't feel that the whole book is as useful as Donovan's, but the way the first chapter of Sapsis's Entertainment Rigging for the 21st Century lays out rigging points is the best way to calculate loads that I have yet come across.


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## Dagger (Jul 18, 2016)

Here's a pic I saw on fb 

There's a discussion going as to if it is done correctly 
Some say it's not wrong but not ideal , some say use pearring etc etc 

If it was me I would just turn the top shackle so the pin goes through the eye 

So the two shackles are bow to pin . 

( not pin to pin )

What you guys think

The picture


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## gafftapegreenia (Jul 18, 2016)

You can't just flip the top shackle, because there are two eyes coming off (what I assume to be) that basket. Two eyes on the pin would be worse than what it is now. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## themuzicman (Jul 18, 2016)

Dagger said:


> If it was me I would just turn the top shackle so the pin goes through the eye
> 
> So the two shackles are bow to pin .
> 
> ...



It's done correctly in the photo. The pin of a shackle only ever gets one connection point, the bell can take more connection points. Shackles can go pin to pin, and in this case, it is preferable. 

You should also mouse your shackles, which is not done in this photo.


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## Dagger (Jul 18, 2016)

Shackles should never bemused pin to pin though according to this 

See Rule number 2 

http://blog.cmworks.com/nine-important-rules-to-follow-when-using-shackles/


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## MikeJ (Jul 18, 2016)

There are a lot of "rule" that are perfectly and acceptable to "break", but the "rule" exists because in 90% of cases it will be true, and quite frankly most people are not smart enough or informed enough to figure out when breaking the rule is safe, or not.

Another example would, the "rule" that shackles should never be side loaded, when in reality the ARE load ratings for using a shackle this way, but 99% of the time you should not do it. This is where a lot of studying and experience will tell you for example, how much side load you can put on a shackle with a breast-line.


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## MikeJ (Jul 18, 2016)

themuzicman said:


> It's done correctly in the photo. The pin of a shackle only ever gets one connection point, the bell can take more connection points. Shackles can go pin to pin, and in this case, it is preferable.
> 
> You should also mouse your shackles, which is not done in this photo.


Shackles should be moused for installs. This is never done for tours and one-offs.


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## porkchop (Jul 19, 2016)

My $.02 is that it's impossible to know if this is acceptable by looking at the photo. Although all shackles of a given size look the same there are slight changes in design. Some shackles can touch pin to pin like this and some can't. If the shackles fit around each other and the weight is fully supported by only the pins then this is an undesirable, but also functional choice. If the eyes of the shackles are taking the weight however then this is completely unsafe. In my experience it is more common for the shoulders not to pass each other and therefore be unsafe in this configuration, but it's not exactly something I have tested thoroughly.
As far a rule of thumb goes, some shackles might work like this but all will work with a pear or oval ring in between so of course the rule of thumb is not to do this.


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