# Funky Cable in the pit.



## Windrider (Mar 20, 2012)

There is a cable coming right out from under our stage at my school, right into the pit. At first I thought it could be Socapex, we do have a dimmers that go to a "unknown location". My school was built in 55, so everyone thought it was just from and old system. After more research, ive finally found a product number for the connector! Amphenol MS3106B28-21S. Now, my question is, is for the dimmers, like a socapex or is it from an old system? We have a Strand CD-80SV for our dimmers. If it is for the dimmers I'd love to finally use this! My other question is if it is for the dimmers.. where could I get something like a socapex breakout for this?


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## Windrider (Mar 20, 2012)

I also just looked at the link above that came up on socapex... it could be a 37 pin socapex... It says amphenol at the bottom and 28-21s at the top. Pins are labeled with uppercase and lowercase letters.


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## chausman (Mar 20, 2012)

Do you have pictures? We like pictures...


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## Edrick (Mar 20, 2012)

I fifth the request for photos.


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## Windrider (Mar 20, 2012)

haha ok I'll grab one tomorrow.


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## MNicolai (Mar 20, 2012)

Windrider said:


> I also just looked at the link above that came up on socapex... it could be a 37 pin socapex... It says amphenol at the bottom and 28-21s at the top. Pins are labeled with uppercase and lowercase letters.



Datasheet says 37-pin. Don't have the link handy but a quick Googke search on that model found it.


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## JD (Mar 20, 2012)

37 pin Veam connector, popular in the 1980's. 18 circuits, one ground. 10+ amp pins. 1kw per circuit. Often coupled on the end of 16/37 SDN type cable that used nylon insulated conductors in a heavy rubber jacket. Had a bunch of the stuff back in the 80's myself. BML out of NJ was making it popular in the north-east US. Used as truss feeders for 8 fixture bars. Each 8 fixture bar would also have one non-dim (total 9) and would then jump to the next bar on a double hang, thus 18 circuits total.

Don't think anything like this would be allowed today. (#16 wire and only one ground for 18 circuits.)

SDN16-37 SDN Small Diameter Multi-Conductor

Remember them looking like this Syntax Male Panel 37 Pin (Male frame mount. But green with silver pins.)


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## porkchop (Mar 20, 2012)

If it's 37 wire that sounds like a Pyle cable to me. You probably COULD make it usable, but if it's 16 AWG like the datasheet I found on the matter says it should be you're not going to be able to use it for much and you'd have to do some work on both ends to get enough grounding which would probably mean buying component parts and soldering them yourself, which although do able I don't recommend (soldering 37 pin connectors is no fun). You're best bet is to see if you can remove the cable and sell if for scrap and use the money to buy more modern equipment.

EDIT: I reread the the OP's 2nd post and on this datasheet if you search for 28-21 it'll bring up a 37pin 16AWG connector so my assumptions seem to be correct.

SIDE NOTE: On the same data sheet they have an 85 pin connector. Wouldn't that be fun to solder?


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## Chris15 (Mar 21, 2012)

I've used that connector extensively, though not for mains voltages.
37 pin is the size of choice for a 12 channel audio core, and 85 pins works well for 24 (or theoetically 28) channels.

Soldering them is not an issue, you solder the contacts individually and then insert them into the connector body.


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## venuetech (Mar 21, 2012)

off the top of my head I would just say that it is unlikely to be part of the lighting system. What makes you think it is part of the lighting system?
Your unterminated dimmers are likely on the grid in a pull box waiting for the acoustical shell that was high on the priority but got cut out of the project just before the dimmer rack was installed.
I have borrowed such unused (future use) dimmers in the past.. at least till they get around to installing a shell.


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## tdeater (Mar 21, 2012)

I have a bunch of those scattered about my theater as audio snake connections. If it is in the pit, that seems probable to me. Do you have an audio patch bay around anywhere, or maybe a matching connector in the booth around where the sound board sits? It is possible if you have un-terminated dimmers, they are just extras. When I was in school, the sensor rack that was installed had 6 unused circuits in it, but they where populated with dimmers instead of blanks. It was located in a room right off stage left, so some cabling out of the rack gave me some more useable circuits to play with on stage.


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## Windrider (Mar 21, 2012)

Here's a picture. There are no others in our whole stage area. I'm almost sure it isn't sound, the only built in sound equipment we have it a PA system and it only has XLR inputs. I noticed some of you said I might be able to use my other dimmers by running cables directly into the dimmer rack.. how would I do that with my CD-80SV? Another weird thing is that the unknown dimmers are 1,2,37,38,39,44,47,48. We have a 24 module rack with dual 2.4kW dimmers.


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## JD (Mar 21, 2012)

Windrider said:


> View attachment 6690
> 
> Here's a picture. There are no others in our whole stage area. I'm almost sure it isn't sound, the only built in sound equipment we have it a PA system and it only has XLR inputs. I noticed some of you said I might be able to use my other dimmers by running cables directly into the dimmer rack.. how would I do that with my CD-80SV? Another weird thing is that the unknown dimmers are 1,2,37,38,39,44,47,48. We have a 24 module rack with dual 2.4kW dimmers.



Although the pinout looks the same, the shell is a reverse of the Veam series. On those, the key is on the male and the slot is on the female along with the locking ring. Bit of an odd connector (although Amphenol connectors are well known) so all bets are off. Are there any markings on the cable? Is it a long cable, or is this a tail coming from a box that is less than six feet away?


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## Windrider (Mar 21, 2012)

It has multiple wires coming out of it... going directly under the stage.. maybe I could track it in our basement.


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## JD (Mar 21, 2012)

Windrider said:


> It has multiple wires coming out of it... going directly under the stage.. maybe I could track it in our basement.



Ooooh! Interesting twist of the plot line! Follow those wires! (Could be something from an old organ install.)


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## Van (Mar 21, 2012)

JD said:


> Ooooh! Interesting twist of the plot line! Follow those wires! (Could be something from an old organ install.)



You beat me to it! I was just begining to think it might be an organ connector. I remember using Veam but it was always in a production R&R setting never in a permanent install.


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## tjrobb (Mar 22, 2012)

Our rebuilt 1927 organ is using multipin for data. Might be something to look into.


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## porkchop (Mar 22, 2012)

I've seen them used for lighting but only with an external neutral so you have have 24 hots, 12 grounds, and 1 solid support core. Not the best idea I've ever heard, but the show I saw this on was built in 99 with equipment that wasn't exactly brand new.


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## DrPinto (Mar 22, 2012)

Windrider said:


> View attachment 6690
> 
> Here's a picture. There are no others in our whole stage area. I'm almost sure it isn't sound, the only built in sound equipment we have it a PA system and it only has XLR inputs. I noticed some of you said I might be able to use my other dimmers by running cables directly into the dimmer rack.. how would I do that with my CD-80SV? Another weird thing is that the unknown dimmers are 1,2,37,38,39,44,47,48. We have a 24 module rack with dual 2.4kW dimmers.



You may want to drop in to your town's building department and ask to see the blueprints for your school auditorium. I did that and it answered lots of questions I had concerning how things were originally set up. I'm sure that your school didn't have XLR connectors in 1955. Your sound system probably consisted of push-and-twist connectors in the stage floor that were connected to an amp, reel to reel tape player and a record player back stage. The blueprint may also answer your "mystery dimmer" question. You might find a long lost wall pocket, floor pocket, or footlights you didn't know you had. Who knows, the original plans may even solve your cable question.

You could also try contacting a retired music or AV teacher to see if they can help you.


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## josh88 (Mar 22, 2012)

Off the top of my head I cant remember how many pins it has but ive got an old house light control box that has a connector pretty similar to that. Don't think it had that 
Many pins but I'll try to find a picture.



Doesn't show how many pins but it's pretty similar in size and it's pretty close, so it could be something like that too

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## marmer (Mar 22, 2012)

Does your pit have a lift? Our original pit lift controller had a very similar connector. A later renovation changed it to a much more robust connector with fewer pins.


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## FMEng (Mar 23, 2012)

That connector isn't rated for enough current for it to be the dimmer outputs. But, it certainly could have been used for an analog control lighting console for a previous dimming system. The building is old enough to have gone through several generations of dimming systems.


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## josh88 (Mar 23, 2012)

Now that I've looked at the connector on my house lights box I think I'm right. It's labeled "Amphenol" as well. So I'm thinking it had to tie into some system like the box I posted above. Here's mine with the male end.


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## Clarkwg3 (Mar 24, 2012)

Windrider said:


> It has multiple wires coming out of it... going directly under the stage.. maybe I could track it in our basement.



Find it yet?

I'm guessing it's from an analogue dimmer system, as a on stage/ near stage connection for hang/focus. The local private college has a similar lighting system in an old church turned concert hall. Will get pics 2 compare against.


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## venuetech (Mar 24, 2012)

do the " multiple wires " have any sort of printing on them and how many is multiple?

photo of the printing on the wire?


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## venuetech (Mar 24, 2012)

Windrider said:


> Another weird thing is that the unknown dimmers are 1,2,37,38,39,44,47,48. We have a 24 module rack with dual 2.4kW dimmers.



start guessing. for example where in the theatre is dimmer #2&3? perhaps on the catwalk closest to the booth. then #1&2 may be in the booth

where are
45,46?
35,36?
50?
43?


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## Clarkwg3 (Mar 24, 2012)

venuetech said:


> do the " multiple wires " have any sort of printing on them and how many is multiple?
> 
> photo of the printing on the wire?



the wire looks like 'bell wire' each dimmer has its own cable. each dimmer pack is 12 1.2k dimmers, each dimmer has its own 2 conductor 18awg cable, 2 dimmer pack means 24 cables between dimmer packs and 2 scene preset board. An additional 6 cables go between dimmer pack A and a wall mount fader module. The only way to change which fader controls which dimmer is to move the fader cable to the dimmer you want to control. Risky business considering the age of the equipment, and how touchy the fader module already is.

I don't have 24/7 access to get pics. Hopefully will have a few minutes tomorrow morn to swing by.


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## Windrider (Mar 24, 2012)

FMEng said:


> That connector isn't rated for enough current for it to be the dimmer outputs. But, it certainly could have been used for an analog control lighting console for a previous dimming system. The building is old enough to have gone through several generations of dimming systems.



Thats what I thought after i looked into 37 pin socapex and my tech teacher told me she thought the wires had the wrong gauge...


marmer said:


> Does your pit have a lift? Our original pit lift controller had a very similar connector. A later renovation changed it to a much more robust connector with fewer pins.



Nope nothing fancy like that haha.


DrPinto said:


> You may want to drop in to your town's building department and ask to see the blueprints for your school auditorium. I did that and it answered lots of questions I had concerning how things were originally set up. I'm sure that your school didn't have XLR connectors in 1955. Your sound system probably consisted of push-and-twist connectors in the stage floor that were connected to an amp, reel to reel tape player and a record player back stage. The blueprint may also answer your "mystery dimmer" question. You might find a long lost wall pocket, floor pocket, or footlights you didn't know you had. Who knows, the original plans may even solve your cable question.
> 
> You could also try contacting a retired music or AV teacher to see if they can help you.



The drama techer suggested that and told a assistant principal had them. its spring break so i have to wait till next week. I shall unlock the secrets of the school like our rumoured hallway across the top of the gym!!!


Clarkwg3 said:


> Find it yet?
> 
> I'm guessing it's from an analogue dimmer system, as a on stage/ near stage connection for hang/focus. The local private college has a similar lighting system in an old church turned concert hall. Will get pics 2 compare against.



Havent been able to get in the basement yet... its spring break so i have to wait till next week.


venuetech said:


> do the " multiple wires " have any sort of printing on them and how many is multiple?
> 
> 
> photo of the printing on the wire?



I'll get a picture next week.


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## Lambda (Mar 25, 2012)

DrPinto said:


> You may want to drop in to your town's building department and ask to see the blueprints for your school auditorium. I did that and it answered lots of questions I had concerning how things were originally set up.



I hate to drag this thread off-topic, but will the building department really just give out blueprints like that? I've been wanting blueprints of our theater for the longest time.


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## Windrider (Mar 25, 2012)

Lambda said:


> I hate to drag this thread off-topic, but will the building department really just give out blueprints like that? I've been wanting blueprints of our theater for the longest time.



I'm just hoping my assistant principal will have them.


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## avkid (Mar 25, 2012)

Lambda said:


> I hate to drag this thread off-topic, but will the building department really just give out blueprints like that? I've been wanting blueprints of our theater for the longest time.


 You may have to prove your identity and pay for a copy, but probably.


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## josh88 (Mar 25, 2012)

I'm telling ya it's got the same amphenal label as my house light box, I think it's for an old system like that for control I'd put good money on it


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## n1ist (Mar 25, 2012)

Amphenol is a company that makes (among other things) connectors. Their round ones are very common in the industrial and military world. 
/mike


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## josh88 (Mar 25, 2012)

I'm aware, but the theatre I pulled that box from had a pit connection and a backstage connection for it which is why I think it may have been a similar system


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## erwaggoner (Mar 25, 2012)

I did work in a church that had a connector almost identical to that for an audio snake...its no where near 60 years ild though, so I doubt your connector is for the same thing. Very similar looking though.

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## avkid (Mar 25, 2012)

Amphenol has been making connectors like that for at least 60 years.


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## Aman121 (Mar 26, 2012)

If it has multiple wires going to different places, that might rule out lighting control, as youd think that all wires would head to the rack or back to the booth. I wonder if it was for a custom sound system back in the day. There would be a large number of wires exiting the amp rack to go to the different frequency drivers, so this may explain the wires heading off in different directions. It also could be for an organ as mentioned before, I know our theatre had the organ amps under the stage.


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## macwhiz (Mar 29, 2012)

Any updates on where the cable went?


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## Windrider (Mar 30, 2012)

macwhiz said:


> Any updates on where the cable went?


Nope, it still spring break... I won't be in until monday.


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## Aman121 (Apr 9, 2012)

Any updates yet? Sorry, this is interesting!


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## Windrider (Apr 11, 2012)

Nope, we're in the tech week for our musical right now.. I haven't had the time to ask about blueprints or do any research, etc.


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## fx120 (Apr 12, 2012)

My guess is audio. In the pre-whirlwind days, the 37 pin amphenol was somewhat of a standard for swing snakes, typically 10-pair because 12-pair cable was very uncommon. It's going the right direction as well.


This photo is from an old 32-pair stagebox with swing mults on the side.


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## Clarkwg3 (Apr 12, 2012)

Thanks box looks like a soldering nightmare. I've built 6 channel snakes with XLR3... with just 6" of slack on input end. Thought that was tough.


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## Haydenk (Jan 7, 2019)

So I just happened to find myself here, im wondering if this mystery was ever solved?


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