# Is a Mac too much to ask for?



## jerekb (Oct 8, 2008)

Here at my school we have some of the most amazing equipment I have ever seen at a high school, but the computer we have is pretty sad and it's locked down be the network which means no software installations and no sound effects as media site are blocked. They seem to feel the need to have a million cd's but I'd rather buy a nice computer and put all sound effects on it and then we could also install software in it like EOS client software. Since we have the money and top of the line equipment the logical thing to do would be to buy something like a Mac Pro though I would be happy with a simple iMac. The problem: my tech director says that decision is up to IT and the head IT (jerk) guy hates anything apple. They keep telling me what we have now works fine... This drives me crazy cause they don't have to use it and I do. Anyone have any ideas, opinions, or have the same sort of issue? Do you have a nice computer?


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## Pip (Oct 8, 2008)

jerekb said:


> Here at my school we have some of the most amazing equipment I have ever seen at a high school, but the computer we have is pretty sad and it's locked down be the network which means no software installations and no sound effects as media site are blocked. They seem to feel the need to have a million cd's but I'd rather buy a nice computer and put all sound effects on it and then we could also install software in it like EOS client software. Since we have the money and top of the line equipment the logical thing to do would be to buy something like a Mac Pro though I would be happy with a simple iMac. The problem: my tech director says that decision is up to IT and the head IT (jerk) guy hates anything apple. They keep telling me what we have now works fine... This drives me crazy cause they don't have to use it and I do. Anyone have any ideas, opinions, or have the same sort of issue? Do you have a nice computer?



Well macs certainly are widely used for stuff like this. We have a Mac Pro for our recording rig and for our FOH mix.

However, we have 2 Yamaha M7CL48s which are networked with our Crown I-Techs, so all the control is Windoze  based. We're switching out our Mac Pro for a powerful Windows PC, and it should work just as well... There are alternative either way.

QLab works alright for mac, but on our FOH PC we have software that I really like, called SFX. Either way, if you can convince him to upgrade the machine, but not to switch to a mac, you still have some great options out there.

(What is it with HS IT guys being either retarded or mean?!)


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## avkid (Oct 8, 2008)

Why not just have your director ask for a limited Admin account so you can access SFX on the internet and download?


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## jerekb (Oct 8, 2008)

avkid said:


> Why not just have your director ask for a limited Admin account so you can access SFX on the internet and download?



Yeah we just did that as a temporary fix they would be giving us teacher privileges which wouldn't be solving our software issues. Plus the computer we are using now isn't very reliable.


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## Footer (Oct 9, 2008)

First rule, if you are using a computer for production, it should be used only for that production, it should not be connected to the internet, it should not have iPods hooked up to it, it should be used strictly to do what you need it to do. I don't let my kids touch my hog computer or my recording/playback computer unless I am arround. Too many of them carry around iPods and jump drives filled with junk. Also, both those computers have a clean install (non-district) copy of XP installed on them. So, when and if you do get a new computer, don't fill it with junk. Its because of all the other stuff on it that you are having stability issues.


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## bdkdesigns (Oct 9, 2008)

The nice thing about QLab is it's expense. The basic file is free and the purchase of the full version, I believe it was only between $100-200. In this scenario however, you have to consider budgeting for the actual Mac. 

However SFX is the most popular program you will find out there, and is PC based. If you can get them to install the software, the basic SFX academic version is around $350. Also, as footer said, use this computer for the productions and nothing else.

I also prefer to have Adobe Audition installed on that computer so that I can make quick, on the spot edits to a track. However, there are plenty of free programs out there that will allow you to do the same thing, with my favorite being Audacity.


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## jerekb (Oct 9, 2008)

Yeah most defenaitley. We try to keep things a professional as possible. I have been thinking about just getting my own harddrive and putting it in the machine myself and I have most of the software we will be needing. It would really suck though if the district found out. Having that one computer unlocked woundn't be any worse then bringing my laptop in and pluging in the Ethernet. GRR! These IT guys drive me insaine.


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## Pip (Oct 9, 2008)

Good points about the keeping it off the tubes. None of our FOH machines have ever been nor will ever see the internets.

As far as good editing software, here is a quick eval of mentioned ones plus a couple more, as I've experienced them:

Pro Tools: 
Pros: Most widely used, industry standard. Very powerful. Cross platform (Mac or PC)
Cons: Requires hardware, very expensive

Adobe Audition: 
Pros: Love it. Great to use, IMO easier to get used to than Pro Tools
Cons: Fairly expensive, 3 is PC-only

Audacity:
Pros: FREE. For a free editing piece, it works very well and is WELL worth the amount you'll pay  Omni platform (mac, linux, pc, +)
Cons: A bit less powerful than the top dogs. No multitrack (I don't think)

WavePad:
Pros: A bit of a step up from Audacity, still really cheap (like 30 bucks) Cross platform (Mac, PC, Linux)
Cons: No multitrack (I don't think)


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## bdkdesigns (Oct 9, 2008)

The other draw back to Pro Tools is real time bouncing to disk. We have Pro Tools in our studio and Audacity on our SFX machines. A quick little edit on a 30 minute track on Audacity is much easier because it bounces to disk much faster. I can make the quick edit that either myself or the director wants and play it back within a few minutes. On Pro Tools it would take the editing time plus the 30 minutes.


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## Pip (Oct 9, 2008)

bdkdesigns said:


> The other draw back to Pro Tools is real time bouncing to disk. We have Pro Tools in our studio and Audacity on our SFX machines. A quick little edit on a 30 minute track on Audacity is much easier because it bounces to disk much faster. I can make the quick edit that either myself or the director wants and play it back within a few minutes. On Pro Tools it would take the editing time plus the 30 minutes.



Good point, I forgot about that. higher sound quality this way, but yeah boucing is real time. I.e. your file is 20 minutes, it takes 20 minutes to create a WAV file of the multitrack.


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## wadeace (Oct 15, 2008)

now lets not hate on the poor it guy who dose not know about the needs of a theatrical program. as an av guy with experience in i.t. at a large school district, i can tell you that a lot of the anti apple is based on support. many districts will have contracts with one computer manufacture often windows based. supporting both platforms raises interoperability issues. we had a tvpro teacher that wanted to teach fcp but we are windows based. the solution, mac laptops with fcp and they couldn't touch the network at all. things that were needed, such as audio files and pictures were downloaded from other machines and moved over to the macs via usb flash drives. its support for when it touches the internet that becomes an issue. 

when talking to the tech guy try to put yourself in his shoes. he has to make discussions the effect the whole school and try to maintain the computers so that they still remain educational devises. some of these multimedia sites open your computer to attack.


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## erosing (Oct 15, 2008)

wadeace said:


> now lets not hate on the poor it guy who dose not know about the needs of a theatrical program. as an av guy with experience in i.t. at a large school district, i can tell you that a lot of the anti apple is based on support. many districts will have contracts with one computer manufacture often windows based. supporting both platforms raises interoperability issues. we had a tvpro teacher that wanted to teach fcp but we are windows based. the solution, mac laptops with fcp and they couldn't touch the network at all. things that were needed, such as audio files and pictures were downloaded from other machines and moved over to the macs via usb flash drives. its support for when it touches the internet that becomes an issue.
> 
> when talking to the tech guy try to put yourself in his shoes. he has to make discussions the effect the whole school and try to maintain the computers so that they still remain educational devises. some of these multimedia sites open your computer to attack.



I'm sorry, but an IT Admin who cannot figure out how to intertwine a network (See Note.) that employs multiple computers running different operating systems should find a new job. I may sound harsh but that is really unacceptable, students need to be given the resources to learn. It's not difficult now, and it wasn't difficult before. The only reasonable exception to this is if they are bound in contract with a sole distribution company by which they may only purchase computers with one operating system because that is all the distributor sells, and in that case they can run a Linux distribution instead.

However, one of the best things you can do is show your IT Department that you know what you're doing with a computer and not just asking for a new one because it looks cool, and that you want a piece of software so that you can learn. See Below.

My IT Admin was also my Computer Programming teacher for two years, he knew quickly what I could and couldn't do and taught me more about System Administration then programming. My senior year he tried a little experiment, off the record, in which he allowed me to administrate the Journalism Lab, which held about 6 Imacs (3 intel, 3 ppc), 4 g3s, and 3 or 4 windows boxes. Long story short, I'm still administrating them when I go back home for the day. Generally, that's the only reason I go home. But when they need new software or hardware for education I let him know and present him the options and which of those I recommend and he lets me know what he thinks and generally they get what they need, even if it is Adobe CS3 when they just bought CS2. Sorry for the long example.


**NOTE: While a wired networking is cake, I do know that some wireless networking companies, Proxim, for example, have serious inter-operating system issues. So I can understand that to some degree but there are workarounds.


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## wadeace (Oct 17, 2008)

I’m sorry I never said that it was impossible; I said it was a support issue. I don’t know about where you go to school, but at my old high school we had close to 1000 workstations all being serviced by one guy, who doesn’t have the time to have to research problems with Macs and compatibility with the system, when he doesn’t even have time to manage all the windows machines he has. Like I said (and should have been more specific about eelier) it’s a mater of scale. arez, you were only adminig a small lab that had under 20 workstations. not only that, but it is still a mater of network compatibility. The school uses logon systems and file server systems that are windows based, allowing every student to and teacher and administrator to have a unique username and password that they can use at any workstation in the county, and access all the dater that they store on the network drives. This is a school district that prides itself on technology. While other districts are tying to give each teacher a workstation, this district has already replaced their old workstations with tablet pcs. The district uses a computer based grade book system, most districts have a overhead projector in the rooms, this district has digital projectors mounted in each room. These people know what there doing, it’s not a mater of stupidity it’s a mater of support.


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## themuzicman (Oct 17, 2008)

We got an ancient bright pink iMac to run our sound from. If you can't get it through IT, try to get a used one for cheap, or solicit "taxable donations".

Anyway, put it to the IT this way: you can do your own service on it

and go into it with the idea that maybe it doesn't have to be on the network =/

I know that's a drag, but it may be a concession you're going to have to make.


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## erosing (Oct 17, 2008)

wadeace said:


> I’m sorry I never said that it was impossible; I said it was a support issue. I don’t know about where you go to school, but at my old high school we had close to 1000 workstations all being serviced by one guy, who doesn’t have the time to have to research problems with Macs and compatibility with the system, when he doesn’t even have time to manage all the windows machines he has. Like I said (and should have been more specific about eelier) it’s a mater of scale. arez, you were only adminig a small lab that had under 20 workstations. not only that, but it is still a mater of network compatibility. The school uses logon systems and file server systems that are windows based, allowing every student to and teacher and administrator to have a unique username and password that they can use at any workstation in the county, and access all the dater that they store on the network drives. This is a school district that prides itself on technology. While other districts are tying to give each teacher a workstation, this district has already replaced their old workstations with tablet pcs. The district uses a computer based grade book system, most districts have a overhead projector in the rooms, this district has digital projectors mounted in each room. These people know what there doing, it’s not a mater of stupidity it’s a mater of support.



Don't get me wrong and I may have been a little harsh, I think you should push for a Mac if you can prove that's the better teaching instrument out there. My example was meant to show you that if you push your IT Admin that he might be more inclined to see things in a new light.

By the way, the school I went to has the same thing yours does, they just went through a digital revamp 4 years ago, except ours computers are mixed to be about half macs and half running windows, all running with a windows front end to administer network shares, and the macs do it to, Directory Services are a beauty. 

I meant no offense by my previous post and I apologize to anyone who saw it that way, it just irks me when schools limit education.


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## jerekb (Oct 17, 2008)

themuzicman said:


> We got an ancient bright pink iMac to run our sound from. If you can't get it through IT, try to get a used one for cheap, or solicit "taxable donations".
> 
> Anyway, put it to the IT this way: you can do your own service on it
> 
> ...


And what mamma don't know won't hurt her. haha


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## jerekb (Oct 17, 2008)

Well I have been really bugging them like everyday and I got my I.T. guys to talk to the district guy and he basically said if the money is there for a mac we can get a mac. I am selling our old 520i!! Oh hey look a couple grand for a new mac just showed up  I of course had to send a freakin 4 page E-mail explaining how Macs are pretty much the industry standard. But techies: 1 point, I.T. 0 points haha!


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## avkid (Oct 17, 2008)

You can get an awesome 24 inch iMac for $2199.


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## jerekb (Oct 18, 2008)

So... Do you think an iMac would be sufficient with some type of usb audio card?


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## avkid (Oct 18, 2008)

jerekb said:


> So... Do you think an iMac would be sufficient with some type of usb audio card?


 The 24-inch 3.06GHz iMac would be more than enough.


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## Anonymous067 (Oct 18, 2008)

When it comes to dealing with the head IT dude of a district or school, you may as well give up. 99% of them are complete dicks and don't really care about learning or students whatsoever.

There may be a logical reason for not mixing macs and pcs. Simply because too much stuff isn't compatible with macs. If they teach students on only pcs, what happens when they get thrown with a mac? Now, we all know tech ppl for plays are smart, but the rest of the student body might not be so much.

Not saying I agree nor disagree, just saying.

Second of all, who cares if you put a second drive in the computer?
If you disconnect the Ethernet from the computer, the district or school can't do squat about it. That's whats letting them monitor and control the computer. Grant it, you still have to deal with program blocks etc etc, but hey, its a start to make sure the IT ppl don't get word you're doing it.

For the record, I'm not really a MAC person, but I'm just saying, I understand the argument of keeping everybody's workstation the same.


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## icewolf08 (Oct 18, 2008)

First of all, I think that we need to take a step back and look at this thread. It is really not good that people are bashing working professionals:

jerekb said:


> The problem: my tech director says that decision is up to IT and the head IT (jerk) guy hates anything apple.




Blah067 said:


> When it comes to dealing with the head IT dude of a district or school, you may as well give up. 99% of them are complete dicks and don't really care about learning or students whatsoever.



Second:

Blah067 said:


> Second of all, who cares if you put a second drive in the computer?
> If you disconnect the Ethernet from the computer, the district or school can't do squat about it. That's whats letting them monitor and control the computer. Grant it, you still have to deal with program blocks etc etc, but hey, its a start to make sure the IT ppl don't get word you're doing it.


Schools and companies implement computer use policies for a reason, circumventing them is is good way to have your computer use right revoked. Just remember that when you start messing with computers that are not yours.

Also, you don't want to put any of your own money into computer hardware (or anything for that mater) for your school. What happens when you install that nice hard drive in the schools computer and then you walk in one day and there is a different machine sitting on the desk because it was time for technology renewal? This of course is besides the fact of ownership rights.

I think that if you present your case in a calm, organized, and civil manner you will get far.


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## soundman1024 (Oct 18, 2008)

I realize I'm a bit late here, but my thoughts on the matter are that the IT guy may have been absolutely reasonable, or stepping over his bounds, it depends on what the computer gets used for.

The church I go to has a contract with Dell. All of their PCs come from Dell. That's just how it is. There are a few exceptions to this however. In our Media department we have an Avid editor that isn't a Dell, and a few Mac Pros that aren't Dell, and an aging Windows 2000 editor, again that isn't Dell. The way they justify it is the machines are editors, not daily work computers. They are on the network as there's a large NAS for media purposes.

If you are buying a new machine to be a piece of theatre equipment and not a general use workstation then I think the department is justified in buying the machine best qualified for the job, Mac or PC. Off of the network the computer is digital audio equipment just the same as a DSP or a CD player. As soon as that machine goes on the network the game changes. The IT guys are responsible for making sure every workstation on the network has the correct permissions and policies as well as ensuring it is restricted from accessing or editing information the end user may or may not be authorized to access or edit. Something to remember, if the IT around your school doesn't know about Macs how can he know that he has sensitive data about minors restricted from access? If sensitive data about minors falls in the wrong hands you can be sure that's not good for job security. Add in that your students may know more about Macs than your IT guys, and it makes even more sense to say no. Ensuring that data is safe puts food on these guys tables.

So in my eyes the question is: are you seeking digital audio equipment, or are you looking for a computer? If it's the first, buy the machine with the theatre's budget and don't let the IT guys know it exists. If it's the second make a formal proposal for the correct people, (like you did) and hope you get the result you're looking for.


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## ruinexplorer (Oct 18, 2008)

icewolf08 said:


> First of all, I think that we need to take a step back and look at this thread. It is really not good that people are bashing working professionals:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I am in complete agreement with Alex. The first step in professionalism is treating those with whom you disagree with at least the same respect as those with whom you do agree. This does not mean that you bad mouth them behind their backs. I have watched many freelance techs badmouthing their employers or former employers to clients. That will get you no where fast. This is a small world, word will get back to whomever you are saying bad things. You may not care what the IT guys think about you, and feel that commiserating with like minded people will be no problem, but you will find that politeness and professional courtesy will get you a lot further in life.


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## wadeace (Oct 19, 2008)

the biggest thing i can say is to always have respect. you don't always know whats best there are always people that knows more than you, and if your nice and respectfully they just might tech you something. if you don't have respect for that reason, than have respect for the fact that the i.t. guy is A+, cisco,... certified, and your not, so they do know what there talking about.


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## themuzicman (Oct 19, 2008)

Now, to go along with that nice new mac, go ahead and buy a Qlab license, and if you can afford it I would suggest a Digidesign rack.

Though that's just my opinion for a nice audio setup.


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## scottmcleod (Oct 20, 2008)

themuzicman said:


> Now, to go along with that nice new mac, go ahead and buy a Qlab license, and if you can afford it I would suggest a Digidesign rack.
> 
> Though that's just my opinion for a nice audio setup.



I'm not even going to wade into the waters of "I.T." vs Mac (i've had my own headaches with this, at any educational institution I've been at (high school / university), and where I currently work, though where I currently work, the IT guys are very open minded (see below).)

Over time, mac always wins. People are always freaked out by it though, because they fear what they don't understand.

On a budget, here's what we're running:

iMac 17" 2.0GHZ w/ 2.0GB Ram
MoTU 828mk3 (we had an alternate spec of an Edirol FA101, which is only 250$)
into a Mackie TT24 via ADAT (Lightpipe) for all of our sound effects.

Not only does this little iMac run all of our sound effects, it sends MIDI commands to the mackie, AND projections via video out to the NEC NP2000 projector.

The little mac that could, indeed!

Because of our success with shows and projections and production last year, they approved purchase for me of a MacBook Pro to lighten the load on the iMac, and allow for a mobile editing platform for the show files.

QLab is the be-all-end-all solution (in my opinion) for Audio & Projections at the educational level. My students program the QLab files for me offline in the Mac Lab, and then bring the files in here to assign the channels once the file is loaded and the MoTU is detected.

SFX doesn't compete, and requires a specially set-up computer to run stable. (I spent 2 years in university working with the TD that had to spec a computer, and install it VERY carefully to get a rock-solid SFX rig.)

My iMac is not only on our school network, but runs alongside the Active Domain Services (Microsoft) that our school uses to administer the rest of the PC network.

Our IT guys only have limited knowledge with regard to apple, but they are OPEN MINDED, and thus, have managed to provide a beautiful opportunity for the Arts department here at our school.

Oh, and lack of apple support my arse. 1-800-MY-APPLE or... http://support.apple.com . You can't ask for 2 better resources.


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## icewolf08 (Oct 23, 2008)

scottmcleod said:


> Oh, and lack of apple support my arse. 1-800-MY-APPLE or... Apple - Support . You can't ask for 2 better resources.



Apple support is like ETC support, everyone else is like Strand. Also, if you are an educational user (student, faculty, staff, or institution) you should call the Apple Educational support line 1 (800) 800-2775, you will get through much faster, and they often are more helpful than the standard support people.


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