# Synchronized Clocks



## Les (Aug 19, 2018)

Does anyone here know a thing or two about synchronized clocks? I'm thinking about how nice it would be to have "official theatre time" in all the important areas (booth, box office, dressing rooms, greenroom, orch "pit" (scene shop usually), SM Console, etc).

There seem to be lots of [expensive] buy-new options, but I also see some used options that could work for us - usually Bogen or Rauland systems that have been decommissioned from schools. Seems that one can mount a rackable "master clock", a 24v PSU (has to be compatible with the system), and then daisy-chain a bunch of "school clocks" using low voltage wiring. I would prefer wired since we wouldn't need to keep up with batteries.

I'd love to hear anyone's experiences with this. @RonHebbard this seems to be in your wheelhouse. I am familiar with Atomic Clocks like these, but they really seem to drain the batteries and they're a bit 'fancy'. These ITC Clocks from Uline could also be an option. While batteries would need to be replaced periodically, I guess that might ultimately be better than wiring in a bunch of antique wall clocks.


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## RonHebbard (Aug 19, 2018)

Les said:


> Does anyone here know a thing or two about synchronized clocks? I'm thinking about how nice it would be to have "official theatre time" in all the important areas (booth, box office, dressing rooms, greenroom, orch "pit" (scene shop usually), SM Console, etc).
> 
> There seem to be lots of [expensive] buy-new options, but I also see some used options that could work for us - usually Bogen or Rauland systems that have been decommissioned from schools. Seems that one can mount a rackable "master clock", a 24v PSU (has to be compatible with the system), and then daisy-chain a bunch of "school clocks" using low voltage wiring. I would prefer wired since we wouldn't need to keep up with batteries.
> 
> I'd love to hear anyone's experiences with this. @RonHebbard this seems to be in your wheelhouse. I am familiar with Atomic Clocks like these, but they really seem to drain the batteries and they're a bit 'fancy'. These ITC Clocks from Uline could also be an option. While batteries would need to be replaced periodically, I guess that might ultimately be better than wiring in a bunch of antique wall clocks.


 * @Les* I gather you're intending synchronized digital clocks rather than synchronized mechanical analog clocks with three hands sweeping across their 12 or 16" diameter faces.
*Yes*; IBM, Simplex and possibly Stromberg clocks synchronized city-wide by several different frequencies being generated by shaft-coupled MG's (Motor Generators) have definitely been in my "wheelhouse" a number of times in the 1960's and early 1970's. [Phuqin' super-imposed tones on the 120 / 208 VAC power lines wreaked havoc with my AVL Coyote and Spindler-Sauppe Kodak Carousel 35 mm slide dissolves too!] Sometime in the early 1990's the IA Head of Sound in a large roadhouse in nearby Kitchener Waterloo, Ontario economically solved his immediate problem by focusing an affordable economy camera on one of his theatre's existing legitimately synchronized analogue clocks and inserting the clocks image within the frame of his many existing video monitors throughout his venue from late-comers in the lobby, through the box office, FOH Manager's office, green room, dressing room corridors, the IA crew room, both sides back stage, the pit and the SM's office. I believe I can find a much more affordable option for you by a company in California. I'll have to invest a little time searching through my PC after which I'll PM you and include an edit on this post. Please be patient and wish me luck. 
*EDIT 1: @Les * 
Check https://horita.com/video-audio-test-and-production-equipment and look at their extremely affordable units which permit you to use a standard keyboard to insert characters and last minute notices in a black box inserted into your existing image. You can adjust the size and shape of the black box and position the box anywhere you prefer; across the top, across the bottom, off in corner, essentially where ever you prefer. Included in their text insertion options are a number of timers and clocks including 12 or 24 hour real-time or up / down timers for starts of acts, durations of intervals, you've got the picture. Assuming *you HAVE THE PICTURE*, https://horita.com/video-audio-test-and-production-equipment Has the text inserter and clock of your dreams at a price far more affordable than you can scarcely believe. Ther text inserters will permit you to insert one or two lines of text and / or to scroll text repeatedly across your screens at scroll rates of your choosing. They also have units which will permit you to insert a picture within a picture such as a shot of your MD / conductor in a corner of your cover shot for the benefit of off-stage choristers, muscians and / or understudies. I met a broad range of Horita's magic little boxes the first time I toured a production to Broadway. The rental company providing the video gear which was going to stay with the production after our touring crew and gear was / were returning to Canada provided a plethora of Horita's many and magical little marvels. 
Give their site a thorough read then phone them if you've any questions. On the phone I've found their support closely rivals ETC's. 
*EDIT 2:* Inserted an omitted word.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard


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## Les (Aug 19, 2018)

Actually, analog clocks would work well in the greenroom and dressing rooms. But the SM Console, booth, and other dark areas might benefit from the bright red digital ones. I've seen some 24v Rauland clock systems that appear to support a mix-match of both.

I wouldn't mind going used on eBay, but I need to make sure I know what I'm dealing with before attempting that.


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## FMEng (Aug 19, 2018)

$50 a clock plus an annual battery swap will be much cheaper than wiring. Buy one clock and test to see if WWVB reception is adequate in the various locations.

For radio studios, we use an ESE master clock and displays with time code on coaxial cable. GPS is the preferred time source, but NTP is fine, too. Likely overkill cost wise for theater.

Of course, everyone now carries a synchronized clock in the form of a cell phone.


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## Ben Stiegler (Aug 19, 2018)

Ron, I love the video-insert idea, and I'm tucking that one away in my future trick bag. For robust analog or digital, my goto is Viking Electronics - https://www.vikingelectronics.com/?s=clock

You can mix analog and digital clocks at your discretion. Its about $200 for a 12" analog, and they make protection cages (for the shop, etc.) where needed.

The clocks create a mesh network amongst themselves, use frequency-hopping to stay clear of all the other wireless devices in your theater, and you get 5-8 years battery life! (digital display clocks use a power adapter). A master clock and transmitter handle the sync.

I would stay away from the antique mechanical cha-chink clocks for a number of reasons, but one important consideration is that when they auto-correct at the top of the hour, there's a lot of buzzing and clinking from the clock. Remember those sound effects from your middle school days? Probably not what you want backstage or in the booth.

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Viking’s Wireless Clock System provides reliable, accurately synchronized clocks for your entire facility. Eliminating dedicated clock wiring can save you thousands of dollars on installation and also allows for easy retrofitting of an existing installation. While most wireless systems are limited to the range of the transmitter, Viking’s system is not. Each clock acts as a Repeater (transceiver), meaning the secondary clocks both receive and retransmit the signal, maximizing signal transmission distances. The system is comprised of a CTG-2A master clock, a CL-RFT clock RF transmitter and Analog or Digital wireless slave clocks. Working on Viking’s 915-928MHz frequency hopping technology eliminates interference with other wireless products and requires no FCC license, eliminating extraneous fees. The received signal remains strong even under the effects of noise, obstructions or long distances which tend to decrease the signal to noise ratio. Installation is a cinch for our wireless clocks, just insert the batteries or connect power and hang them. That’s it.


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## JonCarter (Aug 19, 2018)

I have a couple of these around the house. They're 12" diameter, hang on a push-pin on the wall anywhere, are battery-powered, (change AA cells every couple years), automatically change to & from DST, synchronize themselves by receiving satellite signals and are available everywhere for $25+/-. Why do it the hard way?


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## Jay Ashworth (Aug 21, 2018)

I have had an Android app, suitable for those $50 7" tablets that are everywhere, rumbling around in my head for 2 years now.

This is probably enough motivation for me to march. Thanks.


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## GWWWicked (Aug 21, 2018)

We bought a pair of these POE NTP clocks, the 4" with seconds in green on the catwalk for the balcony tech crew, and a 2.5" without seconds on the face of the balcony for the stage, but somehow the Pastor still can't end on time. POE was great for us because we already had the network infrastructure in place. They weren't cheap, but I love them, especially the green one.

https://timemachinescorp.com/applications/poe-ntp-digital-wall-clocks/


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## n1ist (Aug 22, 2018)

Right now, WWV and WWVH are on the chopping block for next year's NIST budget, so I would stay away from any of the "atomic" clocks. NTP is a safer route.
/mike


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## Jay Ashworth (Aug 22, 2018)

Note that I have signed second hand confirmation from a ranking NIST official: WWVB *is* included in the proposed cuts.

Note too, though, that those cuts were in the "President's budget", to which Congress's reaction is generally "<yawn> That's nice."


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## Jay Ashworth (Aug 22, 2018)

"Every PoE network clock display is assigned a unique IP address within your network, and can be configured to either an internal network time source, or an external, internet-based time server like NIST Internet Time Service"

though note, if you set a dozen of those things to point to time-a, Judah will personally drive to your theatre and set it on fire.


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## RonHebbard (Aug 22, 2018)

n1ist said:


> Right now, WWV and WWVH are on the chopping block for next year's NIST budget, so I would stay away from any of the "atomic" clocks. NTP is a safer route.
> /mike


* @n1ist @Jay Ashworth * Will the NIST on-line clock at https://www.time.gov/ still be at my beck and call 24 / 7 / 365, I depend upon it? 
Toodleoo! 
Ron Hebbard


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## Jay Ashworth (Aug 22, 2018)

I don't know. 

It's not clear to me whether the proposal is to shut down *all* of Time and Frequency at NIST, or just the radio transmitters proper.


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## teqniqal (Aug 23, 2018)

Great story from the past regarding WWVB: Paul Klipsch (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Wilbur_Klipsch) was a bit of a time fanatic and he was known to wear multiple wrist watches. When the first resonant quartz crystal wrist watches were produced, he immediately ordered one. Upon receiving it he synchronized it with WWVB. Curious to know if it was maintaining the advertised accuracy, he checked it against WWVB every month. He soon found that the time setting was drifting more than the advertised specification, and he sent the watch back to the Swiss manufacturer with a note explaining the time accuracy issue and a request to repair it, replace it, or refund his money. He soon received the watch back, noticed that the watch package had not even been opened, and then read the note from the manufacturer tucked into the shipping label pocket. It read: "We thank you for your concern for the accuracy of our product, however, you really can't rely on the time announcements from those small southern radio stations." Paul lived in Hope, Arkansas (a small southern town) and the service department at the Swiss watch service department apparently had no idea that WWVB was the US Atomic Clock Standard transmitter.


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## Jay Ashworth (Aug 24, 2018)

Teq? How is Klipsch supposed to have synchronized his non-"Atomic" watch with WWVB? All it has is binary encoded phase-shifts on it's CW carrier...


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## mikefellh (Sep 16, 2018)

Also use a WWVB clock...the clock in question is battery operated and it was a PITA to have to get the ladder up twice a year to set a regular clock for daylight savings...now I just need to change it max once a year to change the battery (no power nearby).


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## Jay Ashworth (Sep 17, 2018)

Well, except that the President's Budget for next year defunds all NIST radio broadcasts -- I am told that this is at the behest of the new ASec for whichever the hell ASec handles NIST, but haven't confirmed this.


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## FMEng (Sep 17, 2018)

Congress writes the budget and seldom pays the slightest attention to the President's budget. They never have.


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## RonHebbard (Sep 17, 2018)

FMEng said:


> Congress writes the budget and seldom pays the slightest attention to the President's budget. They never have.


 *@Jay Ashworth* and *@FMEng* Again I'll query: Do you foresee this eliminating NIST's oh so convenient on-line time sites? 
Toodleoo! 
Ron Hebbard


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## Jay Ashworth (Sep 17, 2018)

It's uncommon for an administration to appoint people to run department who want to destroy them as a matter of policy, but FME is right; this budget is largely ignored *in most cases*.

This one's stirred up a lot of hornets, but they're all nerdy hornets and may not help.


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## FMEng (Sep 20, 2018)

Jay Ashworth said:


> It's uncommon for an administration to appoint people to run department who want to destroy them as a matter of policy, but FME is right; this budget is largely ignored *in most cases*.
> 
> This one's stirred up a lot of hornets, but they're all nerdy hornets and may not help.



I haven't heard what they want to do with the NTP servers and time pages. 

I have to laugh a bit about Jay's comment, though. The current administration is full of people trying their best to kill the departments they run. For example, Scott Pruitt was clearly trying to kill the EPA. His replacement is doing the same thing, just a bit more quietly. The State Department is a fraction of what it was, and nearly irrelevant in terms of foreign policy. DeVoss is axing regulations at Education. If they could sell off the National Parks and build hotels in them, I'm sure they would. 

NIST is run by the Department of Commerce, under Wilbur Ross. Need I say more?


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## Jay Ashworth (Sep 20, 2018)

You needn't; that's exactly the point I was making. 

So far as I know, though, it's *just* the broadcasting, not the time-standards work per-se. Judah's job is secure -- does Judah still work there?

Doesn't really matter; there are enough Stratum 1 and 0 time services around the Internet that we'd just route around NIST going off line, anyway.


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