# Express 48/96



## MillburyAuditorium (Dec 15, 2009)

I swear I posted this but I guess I didn't, ha ha, guess I really do eat and sleep theater.


Anyways,

Well, After thinking, I realized that the Element does not have a 96 channel model. And I am not going through the hell of having 69 channels on a 48 channel board again X_X 
So I have looked at different boards and decided the ETC Express 48/96 looks like a good choice, nothing fancy, but we are nothing fancy  Simple looking, ETC control setup which will take some getting used to anyways, has a monitor which is godly to us, internet for constant updates, desk lamp outlets, keyboard and mouse input, as well as the ETC track pad.
I also love how each channel has a bump button.
And goodbye black out switch, hello button 

If there is any other suggestions for different boards, I know the Express is a little older.

If you are going to suggest a different board, we are looking for a display to make it more user friendly to our new techies, we need a 96 channel, we dont use two scene, and we pretty much do everything manualy, but have a Que for a nice houselight fade up and down. 
Submaster ammount doesnt matter, we dont use many anyways.

Thanks~
Main reason for posting is comments on the Express 96.


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## Wolf (Dec 15, 2009)

I can understand you wanting to have control over every channel with a slider but if you wont to continue in lighting wither it be theatre or music you should really get used to using cues particularly in theatre. Yes there will be the shows that are one offs where you don't create cues and do everything on the fly, but for that I would want submasters so I don't see why you wouldn't care about the amount of subs. If you can afford the Element I would get that, but if you can't, go with the Express but try to use the channel sliders less and less.


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## marshmolly123 (Dec 15, 2009)

Wolf said:


> I can understand you wanting to have control over every channel with a slider but if you wont to continue in lighting wither it be theatre or music you should really get used to using cues particularly in theatre.



The channel sliders are great for programming cues, though. They're a little quicker than typing in each channel.

One word of advice though: Don't go for the Express if you use intelligent fixtures. It's a difficult board with which to use them.


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## erosing (Dec 15, 2009)

If you cannot afford an Ion, the 48/96 is a solid board, I used one for 4 years, and again just recently. Programming on it is a sinch, basic operation doesn't take more than a few minutes. 

As marshmolly said, if you use moving fixtures, you'd be better off with something else, but as someone who has run VL 1K's off of a 48/96, it isn't impossible, but I don't ever want to do it again.

The only trouble with the 48/96 is board ops that like to hit both [go] buttons...


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## starksk (Dec 15, 2009)

MillburyAuditorium said:


> ... I realized that the Element does not have a 96 channel model. And I am not going through the hell of having 69 channels on a 48 channel board again ...
> So I have looked at different boards and decided the ETC Express 48/96 looks like a good choice, nothing fancy, but we are nothing fancy  Simple looking, ETC control setup which will take some getting used to anyways, has a monitor which is godly to us, internet for constant updates, desk lamp outlets, keyboard and mouse input, as well as the ETC track pad.
> I also love how each channel has a bump button.
> And goodbye black out switch, hello button



If I can jump in here and correct a few things so you don't feel mislead about the abilities of each console.

The Express line does not support a keyboard nor a mouse. The ethernet port on the console is for connection to a ETCNet1 device such as a Remote Interface Unit or a Remote Video Interface as well as ETCNet2 nodes running in Net1 mode. It does not connect to the internet (nor should any lighting console, IMO) for updates. 

The Element has options for 40 or 60 physical faders, each with a bump button. On each version however, there is a selector switch in the middle to change pages of faders so you will have 120 channel faders in total (on the 60 channel model, the bottom 20 faders are always submasters).

I will leave the opinions of running each console to others...


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## derekleffew (Dec 15, 2009)

MillburyAuditorium said:


> ...Submaster ammount doesnt matter, we dont use many anyways. ...


Should you wish to pursue lighting beyond your current situation, I'd rethink that.


marshmolly123 said:


> The channel sliders are great for programming cues, though. They're a little quicker than typing in each channel. ...


Really? I can type [CH] 1 [>] 10 [@] 50 faster than you can get Channel Fader #1 to 55, oops, 47, no 52, no 49, 50, there, 50!, let alone the other 9.
Furthermore, except on Element, HTP channel handles are worthless when editing a cue and a value needs to be lowered.

If I had an Element, it would never be in anything other than submaster mode--there's just no need for individual channel faders. How many boards other than entry-level Expresses, 300s, and Innovators have channel faders? Zero. Think there's a good reason for that?


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## photoatdv (Dec 16, 2009)

Channel sliders are only useful if you don't have enough subs for me anyways...

I'd much prefer to keep each dimmer on a channel, and group them on subs... then when you need to change something you don't have to redo half the show...


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## erosing (Dec 16, 2009)

I like subs, don't get me wrong, but does no one have love for groups? I vastly prefer groups to subs, no paging.


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## Footer (Dec 16, 2009)

Arez said:


> I like subs, don't get me wrong, but does no one have love for groups? I vastly prefer groups to subs, no paging.



And you can lower a value... 

Learn to use the keypad. We left the world of 2,3,4,5... scene presets 25 years ago for a reason. 

If you want handles, record it to a sub. IMO there are only two express consoles that are worth buying, the 125 and the 250. The 72/144 and 48/96 are a waste of space.


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## sstolnack (Dec 16, 2009)

Like everyone else says... Cues are benificial, and you will need to know them if you want to work in other theatres. My theatre has Emphasis, with an Express 48/96 board. That does include a computer, which can have internet I believe, maybe that's what you were thinking of. 
And yes, I do love groups... I never gave them any thought until I was ALD for a LD that used them, and I saw the brilliance of them. I'm working on programming lots of useful groups, but so far the most useful thing is having my cyc lights grouped by color. Much easier, and you can use update instead of recording, like you have to with subs.


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## marshmolly123 (Dec 16, 2009)

Arez said:


> The only trouble with the 48/96 is board ops that like to hit both [go] buttons...



Arez, I totally understand what you're saying. Or I'll be running cues on one slider and accidentally hit GO on the other slider. Easily one of the most annoying things about the board.


starksk said:


> The Express line does not support a keyboard nor a mouse. The ethernet port on the console is for connection to a ETCNet1 device such as a Remote Interface Unit or a Remote Video Interface as well as ETCNet2 nodes running in Net1 mode. It does not connect to the internet (nor should any lighting console, IMO) for updates.



Perhaps he means he has a laptop with the offline editor and an Internet connection?


derekleffew said:


> Really? I can type [CH] 1 [>] 10 [@] 50 faster than you can get Channel Fader #1 to 55, oops, 47, no 52, no 49, 50, there, 50!, let alone the other 9.



I guess I should have phrased that differently -- they're good for sketching out cues quickly. I usually can figure out the approximate levels, and then just tweak them with the keypad.


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## SteveB (Dec 16, 2009)

Ummm Folks, the Express isn't manufactured anymore.

The ETC options for new consoles are the Smartfade line, The Eos line with assorted Elements, Ions and Eos, as well as the Congo and Congo Jr. series.

The OP might readily purchase a used Express - ETC Express 48/96 DMX Lighting Console Control Board - eBay (item 330384122181 end time Jan-04-10 15:29:01 PST)

As to the argument manual vs. keypad ?. Use only subs or keep channel faders ? - BORING !. We've argued this endlessly and I'm not even going to comment. It's all personal choice and nobody's method is better then anyone elses as every ones situation is different.

SB


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## Tracyu (Dec 16, 2009)

Take a look at Zero 88s Leap Frog 96. You get 96 channel sliders, 30 subs X 20 pages, lots of groups, moving lights package with a library of over 2000 fixtures, supports usb keyboard, mouse and touch screen support. They also keep a pretty active and free software update program. You can check it out here.
Leap Frog


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## MillburyAuditorium (Dec 16, 2009)

Yes, we're aware its discontinued 

And I didn't realize there was no mouse or keyboard connection (How do you label things in the display without them BTW?)

And I may of worded things wrong.
We do use sub masters of course, just, I don't care about having 10 pages of 20 subs like some boards  We have all conventional lighting, so that decreases needs for subs a bit too. And this year we are probably using the most we ever have, were doing City of Angels, we need a 'real world' and 'fake world' And various single spots.

Anyways, I don't use channel sliders nearly at all during a performance other than for corrections or people being somewhere were they shouldn't be etc.
It's just a bit of a bother to not have enough channel sliders, having a 48 channel board and 65 dimmers in use.

Really any board with 96 physical (Theirs only 3 major kinds of board, 25, 48, and 96 right? If not, we really only need about 70) channel sliders and at least one monitor display would be great.



And there is a 96 channel Element? Can I have a link? for some reason I havnt seen one :/


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## fredthe (Dec 16, 2009)

MillburyAuditorium said:


> Really any board with 96 physical (Theirs only 3 major kinds of board, 25, 48, and 96 right? If not, we really only need about 70) channel sliders and at least one monitor display would be great.


Check out Strand's Preset Palette II 48/96. In addition to plenty of sliders, it has all the features (movers, color pickers, etc.) of "modern" theatrical boards.

Please, don't go with a board that will only control "conventional" lighting. You don't know what the school might get in the next 10 years, and it would be bad to be limited by a board with technology that's already 10+ years old.

Even conventional lighting can benefit form newer technology... one example is to gel your cyc lights Red/Green/Blue, then tell the board they're an RGB fixture. You then have color picker capability for your cyc!

-Fred


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## SteveB (Dec 16, 2009)

Mibury wrote:

"And I didn't realize there was no mouse or keyboard connection (How do you label things in the display without them BTW?)"

With Express, you are forced to export the file to the off-line editor, do the labeling there and load back. Only Expression and Insight supported a mouse and keyboard directly. Have you considered an Insight III ? 108 faders, can be easily setup as 72 faders as channels 1-72, plus 36 subs on the lowest row. Takes a VGA monitor, supports keyboard and mouse. 

ETC Insight 3 Studio Lighting Control Console - eBay (item 150397540541 end time Dec-23-09 12:58:10 PST)



"It's just a bit of a bother to not have enough channel sliders, having a 48 channel board and 65 dimmers in use. Really any board with 96 physical (Theirs only 3 major kinds of board, 25, 48, and 96 right? If not, we really only need about 70) channel sliders and at least one monitor display would be great. And there is a 96 channel Element? Can I have a link? for some reason I havnt seen one "


The Element series is limited to 60 handles

I would recommend as an Express 48/96 alternative, maybe looking at the Strand line, specifically the Preset Palette, with 48 channels in 2 scene or 96 as single, with 32 submasters. Only thing missing is that fabulous ETC tech support, which is worth the price of a console alone.

Or as a step up and something that gives you growth potential (and a warranty that e-bay doesn't offer much of), an Ion with fader wings appropriate to the system size. If you've got 65 dimmers and operate as 1:1 channel to dimmer, then 2 - 2x20 fader wings gets you 65 manual channels, configured as Ch 1 on Sub 1, etc... plus 15 extra faders as subs, channels, effects, cue lists, etc... TONS more versatile, especially as any fader can be configured anyway you want. And before you worry over the complexity of having to manually setup "Ch 1 to to Sub1" and "Sub 1 to Fader 1" it's actually an easy 2 step process of re-setting Channels to Subs 1:1 and Faders as Subs. Gets you text labeling on the sub LCD screens as well, so your channel labels travel with the show file.

I can't stress enough the "buy for the future" concept. Ion (and to an extent, the Strand Palette) gets you the latest software and hardware and will serve you better 10 years from now then any used Express, Expression or Insight. Ion particularly is amazing bang for the buck. I would guestimate that an Ion 1024 with 2-2x20 wings, plus 2 LCD monitors ($150 ea.) would run you less then $10,000 new, which is a huge bargain as compared to a used Insight at $7000. And FWIW, that e-bay used Express 48/86 @ $4500 is what I paid new for the same console in '99 !

Steve B.


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## marshmolly123 (Dec 16, 2009)

MillburyAuditorium said:


> And I didn't realize there was no mouse or keyboard connection (How do you label things in the display without them BTW?)



You use the Expression Offline Editor on a PC, and then that transfers to the console when you load the show on the console.
http://www.etcconnect.com/product.overview.aspx?ID=20195


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## icewolf08 (Dec 17, 2009)

I was not going to chime in, but I think that I have to. As has been mentioned, Express is a discontinued product. While it WAS a great product, the emphasis is on WAS. It was one of the most prolific lighting controllers ever, if not the most. However, it is time to get over it! the current offerings from ETC and from Strand and the other manufacturers of theatre consoles are far superior to the Express.

While you might be able to pick one up used, and ETC will continue to support the product, you should not be buying a console that is over 10 years old! You would never buy a computer that was that old, why would you buy a computer based piece of hardware that is that old? It is an absolute waste of your school's money to purchase an outdated lighting console. It also will not help further your education or the education of your successors in the world of lighting. It is just a step in the wrong direction.

I totally understand the desire to have a lot of handles on your console, but in reality, you only want them because that is what you are used to. If you are bent on having them, there are console out there that can support lots of faders, the Strand Preset Palette for one, and the ETC Ion (via fader wings) for another. Even when I worked on Express(ion) consoles, the keypad was my friend. I know that people think that roughing in looks is faster with faders, but consider how much time you spend in front of a computer typing. You can enter channel levels really fast and it is a lot easier to manipulate channels on the keypad when the LD is calling out information to you rather than hunting for faders.

So, get over the Express already, it has been discontinued for a while now. Get over your insane number of faders or look at new generation consoles that have ridiculous numbers of faders. Move forward, don't step back, sideways or stay stagnant!


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## Footer (Dec 17, 2009)

As much as I hate to say this... 

You don't have to always have the greatest and newest. 

I still think the express should be considered as an option for people on budgets. When I was in college we bought an ETC Idea on ebay for under a grand. It is still in the space and still going strong 6 years later. Its a 15+ year old console. For conventional fixtures only, it does what you need it to do. 

Express console are going to start popping up left and right as theatres start replacing consoles. I know of at least 3 venues that have an expression line console sitting in a closet. I also know of at least one dealer that is letting people "trade in" their expression line console for an Ion. These things are going to be out there and you should be able to pick one up for under 2k. How many people are still using expression 2's? If you just running conventionals, there is no reason not to consider an express. If you can get one used for 1,500, you saving a ton of cash. You are buying an older piece of hardware that has the chance of breaking down more. Then again though, I have worked at least 20 different Expression consoles in the last 5 years and have never seen an issue. 

Its the same argument of buying a used car. Yes, the new Toyota corollas are great. However, my 1999 Corrolla with 150k still gets me from point A to point B. It does the same function as the new one. It might not look as cool. It might not get the same gas milage or have the greatest car tech. However, it does work and its reliable. I bought it for an 1/8 of the price of a new one.

So, if you can pick up an express for under 2k, go for it. I know I would sell my express for that much (if the boss would give me another 3k to by a new console). My wife would do the same at her venue. It would not hurt to make a few phone calls to places that you know have them. Just like with buying a car, make sure to check under the hood of the console and give it a test drive before you buy. However, you could save a lot of cash and let you put money into a few extra fixtures or something like that. 

Granted... if you ever think you are going to have movers, disregard....


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## MillburyAuditorium (Dec 17, 2009)

fredthe,
Hey thats a great idea  Wow, I could use a color pallet to make any color just like a real RGB light couldn't I? And since its a cyc it would fill the whole area.
About gelling cycs. Where do I find those kind of gels? Oh frames at least, these are the exact ones. Far Cyc > Fixtures > Theatrical Equipment > Commercial Lighting > All Leviton Products from Leviton Electrical and Electronic Products

Footer-
I agree

Steve-
Thanks, Might be annoying, but at least we could have them at all!
I'll look at the Insight 3 right now, thanks.


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## cprted (Dec 17, 2009)

MillburyAuditorium said:


> About gelling cycs. Where do I find those kind of gels?


From the same place you find all your other gels. Consult your nearest swatch-book for more details.


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## fredthe (Dec 17, 2009)

MillburyAuditorium said:


> Where do I find those kind of gels? Oh frames at least


According to the Far Cyc spec sheet, you need 

> AFCCF-000 Color Frame - Far Cyc. One required per cell.


You might already have them, look around.

Note that this works best with 3-cell units. Of course, you can do this with a conventional board also, it just makes color selection more trial-and-error.

One comment on sliders vs. keypad... on the Strand Palette boards, you can select a bunch of channels (or a predefined group) using the keypad, then use the wheel to set/tweak the level. I presume the ETC boards work the same way.

-Fred


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## marshmolly123 (Dec 17, 2009)

fredthe said:


> One comment on sliders vs. keypad... on the Strand Palette boards, you can select a bunch of channels (or a predefined group) using the keypad, then use the wheel to set/tweak the level. I presume the ETC boards work the same way.
> -Fred



No wheel, but you can just do [CHANNEL] [1] [THRU] [9] [AT] [57], for example. Or [GROUP] [1] [THRU] [9] [AT] [57], alternatively. Same idea.


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## rochem (Dec 17, 2009)

marshmolly123 said:


> No wheel, but you can just do [CHANNEL] [1] [THRU] [9] [AT] [57], for example. Or [GROUP] [1] [THRU] [9] [AT] [57], alternatively. Same idea.



Actually, both the Express and the Eos/Ion/Element series do have some form of a wheel - the Eos/Ion/Element uses a level wheel, while the Express uses a trackpad with coarse/fine adjustment. Works the same way as fredthe described, you just select a range of channels and then move the wheel/trackpad and you'll instantly have control over the intensity level. I find that I don't use it very often, but it is very helpful when you need to keep your eyes on the stage while making fine adjustments to levels.


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## Corbettlight (Dec 17, 2009)

There is a wheel on the newer ETC's. Well, At least the Eos family does. I'm not sure about the Congos or Smartfades. I love the wheel on my Element. I use it whenever I don't have in mind what level I may want. Or, if I do have an approximate idea, I can set it with the keypad and tweak it with the wheel. I almost never use the faders.


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## erosing (Dec 18, 2009)

I hate the trackpad, they always have a gummy feel to them. That and I've had to grind my finger on every one I've used to get it to work. 

Wheels ftw.


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## fredthe (Dec 18, 2009)

For the ultimate in tactile control, put a touchscreen on a Palette... just touch to select/deselect channels, and roll the wheel to set levels. Much better than trying to grab a bunch of handles 

On a more serious note, I'd like to respectfully disagree with Footer. It's true that a used Express can offer an excellent value, and for something like a community theater it might be ideal. 

However, here we are talking about an educational environment. I'm a firm believer in providing students with up-to-date technology whenever it's possible. Now, budget constraints may certainly play a large role in what can be done, but it think it's much better to start out asking for something current (at around $4k for Element/Basic Palette) and then understand what is being lost by going to a lower-cost (used) option.

Another consideration is that once a new board is purchased (even if it's a 10 year old used board) the school isn't going to want to replace it for at least another 10 years. I really wouldn't want to imagine students still using an Express in 2020 (Though all indications are that ETC will still be supporting it.)

-Fred


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## Footer (Dec 18, 2009)

fredthe said:


> However, here we are talking about an educational environment. I'm a firm believer in providing students with up-to-date technology whenever it's possible. Now, budget constraints may certainly play a large role in what can be done, but it think it's much better to start out asking for something current (at around $4k for Element/Basic Palette) and then understand what is being lost by going to a lower-cost (used) option.
> 
> Another consideration is that once a new board is purchased (even if it's a 10 year old used board) the school isn't going to want to replace it for at least another 10 years. I really wouldn't want to imagine students still using an Express in 2020 (Though all indications are that ETC will still be supporting it.)
> 
> -Fred



Yes, but its a secondary education environment. Its not the end of any students educational career. Having taught in this type of setting, it does not matter what technology you have. All that matters is that the students get to experience the equipment and get to have fun doing theatre. Its not about having the newest and best gear. In college, an argument can be made for having the newest gear, but the same argument can be made for also having the old stuff. 

If they can get a 4-5k for a current console, great, go for it. However, putting in a 5,000 dollar console to control 8 fresnels and 8 ERS fixtures might be a bit of an overstep. If you can only get 5k to do an upgrade, you might be better off diversifying your money a bit. 

There is nothing a newer console can do that an express can not do with a conventional rig. Programming might be a bit easier but to the audience there is not going to be any difference. 

Here is the OP's inventory.... 


> How many dimmers do you have in your theater?
> 48, We have the ColorTran I-48. Medium size in the I series.
> 
> 
> ...


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## fredthe (Dec 18, 2009)

Footer said:


> Yes, but its a secondary education environment. Its not the end of any students educational career. Having taught in this type of setting, it does not matter what technology you have. All that matters is that the students get to experience the equipment and get to have fun doing theatre. Its not about having the newest and best gear. In college, an argument can be made for having the newest gear, but the same argument can be made for also having the old stuff.


I do understand where you're coming from, I also work with HS students (though in an advisory/support role, not as an official instructor.) While not the end of their education, it may be the start (at least for technical theater) for many. I'd like to do as much as possible to spark their interest and creativity, and I've seen how that can be stifled by having to work with obsolete technology.


> If they can get a 4-5k for a current console, great, go for it. However, putting in a 5,000 dollar console to control 8 fresnels and 8 ERS fixtures might be a bit of an overstep. If you can only get 5k to do an upgrade, you might be better off diversifying your money a bit.


This is a good point. Looking at MilburyAuditorium's equipment list, I wonder how he (she?) gets to needing 72 channels of control capacity. If it's really only 24 fixtures, plus a couple of strip and cyc lights, they don't need that many channels. Of course, at that size, maybe a Smartfade is more appropriate.


> There is nothing a newer console can do that an express can not do with a conventional rig. Programming might be a bit easier but to the audience there is not going to be any difference.


I agree, but I'm concerned about the underlying assumption that the rig will still be conventional 10 years from now. 

Put another way, if they had a good working board (like an Express) I'd certainly be recommending they keep using it. It's when they start talking about buying one now that I get concerned.

-Fred


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## Edge (Dec 21, 2009)

Well I don't think it's for us to decide whether they need x amount of channels or submasters etc... 

I can understand your situation. I run a community theater which doubles as a school theater so the use of faders by our students is quite common. It just makes it a whole lot easier to run shows and events without reinventing the wheel several times a day...

Have you checked out the Strand Preset Palette II? It comes in 2 configurations one of which is 48/96 channels...


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## chris325 (Dec 21, 2009)

You want faders? Colortran Innovator 72/144, it's *5 feet* wide with all the handles you ever wanted.

But seriously, I think that a Smartfade would be a great option for you, specifically the ML if you see movers in your future. The Express would also (I assume) work fairly well with I-cues, scrollers, and other intelligent devices. An Element is definitely overkill for 72 channels. If you are looking for a board with moving light controls, I'd stay away from the Innovator 600. From two years of working with one, I've had enough trouble with it controlling a conventional rig to justify said recommendation.


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## Jeroen (Dec 21, 2009)

If you want a lot of faders and the possibility to do much more... Smartfade 24/96 offers you two rows of 24 faders, all can be used as channel faders or memories/subs, with a touch of a button you can switch from 1-48 to 48-96, giving you direct control over 48 channels and almost direct control of 96 channels. In addition you have 2 independents for controlling on/off devices (a hazer...).
The Smartfade has also a multifunction wheel, you can use it to give commands like set level 1 tru 23 at 45 just scrolling the wheel.

Other consoles with the same capabilities, but probably more in the rpice range of an ETC Element:
If you want a 96 channel fader controldesk: the ADB-TTV Domino XT/96 gives you control of 96 conventional channels, and 128 movers. 48 faders configurable as channels, submasters or playbacks on the Domino/XT 96
techref.info: ADB Products - Domino/XT systems

Similar: MA Lightcommander II 48/6
[url=http://www.malighting.com/


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## DigitalDJ21 (Dec 21, 2009)

The 48/96 is how I started five years ago. It's by far my favorite board for conventional fixtures, however please be aware it's only good for conventional fixtures. I've hooked up 6 channel LED lights to it before and it's really a hassle. I highly recommend the ETC 48/96 but just keep in mind that there's no room for expansion to intelligent lighting fixtures so you would have to get a new board. What I did for my high school years ago while I was using the 48/96 was purchase Martin Light Jockey II to run our new string of MAC 250 Entours.


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## Raktor (Dec 24, 2009)

If you're using individual channel faders to light, you're doing it wrong.
If you think you don't need submasters for conventional lights, you're doing it wrong. (Unless you're using groups, in which case, carry on)
If you think all shows should be busked, and not cued, you're doing it wrong.


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## Footer (Dec 24, 2009)

Raktor said:


> If you think you don't need submasters for conventional lights, you're doing it wrong. (Unless you're using groups, in which case, carry on)



So... the GrandMA, Chamsys Magic Q, Hog II, and HogIII are all doing it wrong?


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## Soxred93 (Dec 24, 2009)

Footer said:


> So... the GrandMA, Chamsys Magic Q, Hog II, and HogIII are all doing it wrong?


 
I think what he's getting at is that you should always use submasters or groups. If you aren't using them, start.


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## mstaylor (Dec 24, 2009)

I like having dimmers readily accessable. I use other peoples equipment and theatres all the time and it's nice to be able to search through dimmers to see what is there before you start a project. Many times our tech time is quite limited so setting looks or cues on actual dimmers, then assigning them to a sub or a cue is faster. Of course I'm old and came through two scene preset boards so I tend to think that way. Maybe for younger guys that are used to not having dimmers it works. 
I have trouble running a Lycian spot for the same reason. Thirty-four years of running Supers makes for musle memory that makes me struggle with a newer style spot. My son on the other hand is an expert on them. It's what he ran in Europe for Feld.


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## SteveB (Dec 24, 2009)

Soxred93 said:


> I think what he's getting at is that you should always use submasters or groups. If you aren't using them, start.



Folks, telling someone to stop doing what they are comfortable doing currently, instead insisting that the OP:

"If you're using individual channel faders to light, you're doing it wrong."
"If you think you don't need submasters for conventional lights, you're doing it wrong. (Unless you're using groups, in which case, carry on)"
"If you think all shows should be busked, and not cued, you're doing it wrong. "
(was this possibly sarcasm ?)

Or:

to "always use submasters or groups", 

Is pretty dogmatic and as a rule should be avoided to be considered useful advise. 

I've been in the business 34 years, 28 as the LD at the same house and I use manual channels. Sometimes 50-60 (remember as well that Avo stills sells the Diamond with 90 channel faders in 2 scene ! for good reason). I also use subs a lot, and groups - but be aware that on the latest ETC consoles Eos/Ion/Element, Groups ain't the same as on Express/ion, so beware the Express/ion use of the term. 

I run my shows the way I know works. So does the OP. Don't think for a minute you can tell us we're wrong, when we KNOW our method works in our situation, which isn't your situation. 

If the OP can take into consideration other styles of operating the console, then good for him. But if he wants 65 manual channel faders, then lets give him USEFUL advice as to what might work.

Rant over.

Steve B.


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## MarshallPope (Dec 24, 2009)

I think some of you are forgetting the easiest, most reliable, original group: a pencil laid across 4 or 5 faders.


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## Footer (Dec 25, 2009)

MarshallPope said:


> I think some of you are forgetting the easiest, most reliable, original group: a pencil laid across 4 or 5 faders.



Na, play with a pin matrix patch. Now thats fun.... 

Or you would get pieces of poster board and notch it to set levels...


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## MSLD (Dec 25, 2009)

When i read everyone's post about how its much easier to type in Channel Numbers and Levels, to me thats only useful when you know how you patched everything and know all of your channel numbers. I like to take the time and use the faders (i use a 48/96) and fine tune everything and write cues. Now, I do a lot more concerts than plays, but when i do plays i LOVE having the faders. Don't know why, just do. I would recommend the 48/96


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## cprted (Dec 25, 2009)

MSLD said:


> When i read everyone's post about how its much easier to type in Channel Numbers and Levels, to me thats only useful when you know how you patched everything and know all of your channel numbers.


You should really get in the habit of creating paperwork for yourself. It'll makes things faster, easier, and it'll keep your co-workers happy and sane


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## mstaylor (Dec 25, 2009)

If you are in your building with your system then you may be good writing cues ahead of time. If you are running in a strange house but a board that you have a show saved to disk and patched exactly like you want then you are right about using straight cues. I hardly ever have that luxury. Even in theatres I use regularly others repatch and rerecord subs. I don't use anything like VW or other program like it so we have to hang, focus, patch and record every show. In live theatre actors many times don't do what they are supposed to do so I prefer to be able to fine tune cues on the fly. I like dimmers to do this, others have the ability fix cues in the program, I don't. Like MLSD I do a lot of live music and coperate events so busking is the way to go. 
The beauty of lighting is there is no wrong way to do it. It is a creative process and everyone's brain's work differently so how you get to a finished product is a byproduct of a tech's background, what type of boards we have used and what we currently use. I use old two scene boards in some buildings, an Express in others, Expression in another, just got an Ion at a local college, and in the music/corporate world I use a combination of lebrecon, Lightronics and Pearls. Occansionally I will use a Jands or a HogII.


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## kadams17 (Dec 30, 2009)

I didnt see this posted, but I bet ch'all I missed it.

The express has PAGES of subs.


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## dcollins (Dec 31, 2009)

But it's a pain to use more than one, at least in a live setting, since you can only use one page at a time. AFAIK, you can't do something like [Group]  [Page] 1  1 [Full] [Group]  [Page] 2  1 [Full], which means if you're using subs as groups at least, you need each page to have a full set of all the subs you need. You can use a different page for each act, say, if you need different looks, though. I just think that multiple pages of subs aren't handled very nicely. I even managed to freeze my console once trying this (sub 24, house lights, wouldn't go off, and that sub's led was blinking, even if the slider was set to zero.)


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## askiboot (Dec 31, 2009)

What about a strand 300? my theatre just upgraded from that to an ion, but it has the option to have 48 faders in a 2 scene preset, as well as punching in numbers. It also has a fixture library for moving lights. Im not saying its a flawless board, but its a step up from manual, and will let you transition to programming.


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## kiwitechgirl (Dec 31, 2009)

askiboot said:


> What about a strand 300? my theatre just upgraded from that to an ion, but it has the option to have 48 faders in a 2 scene preset, as well as punching in numbers. It also has a fixture library for moving lights. Im not saying its a flawless board, but its a step up from manual, and will let you transition to programming.



The 300 isn't being manufactured any more though, so buying one new is not possible which may be an issue. I wouldn't buy a second-hand one either - I've just known too many of them to develop hardware faults and problems and I reckon a second-hand one would just have too many possible issues just waiting to happen. And to be honest, while it runs the same software as the 500-series desks do, it's really not a nice desk at all - I love the 500-series, but the control surface on the 300 is just nasty. I seriously dislike the "squishy" feel of the buttons - there's no decent resistance so it's very easy to double-tap.


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