# Blacklight



## gafftaper (Nov 26, 2006)

I've seen a lot of discussions of what black light is, but only found a few references to specific instruments. As part of my new theater's inventory I want to spend around $1000 on black light instruments. The theater is a 50 foot square black box with about 20 feet from the grid to the deck. There are clearly a lot of options between Elation's $150 UV Wash to Wildfire's $3000 400 Watt zoom. The higher end arc units from Wildfire all come with good photometric data, but none of the fluorescent units I find have ANY photometric data. So it's very difficult to compare anything. 

I'm looking for the most UV Wash bang for my buck. I think I’m looking at purchasing fluorescents at this point to just go for the instant on wash effect. If I need a concentrated, super high power, UV effect then I'll go rent one of those bad Wildfire's. For now, I want the ability to light a drop with invisible paint, or make a creepy night scene creepier. How much output do you need to make UV paint pop on a drop without turning the rest of the wash down 30%? 

Anyone got a favorite? Should I go nuts on a bunch of the cheap Elation or American DJ units? OR is it better to get just 3 or 4 of the high end Wildfire (or similar) two tube units? 

Any thoughts on your experiences with specific units and lumen output would be great.

*(Here's a side question, probably for Ship: Are lumens still the correct measurement when you are talking about a form of radiation outside the visible spectrum?) *


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## Chris15 (Nov 26, 2006)

[Hijack] gafftaper, the black font does not make for easy reading. Cheers. [End Hijack]


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## gafftaper (Nov 26, 2006)

Chris15 said:


> [Hijack] gafftaper, the black font does not make for easy reading. Cheers. [End Hijack]



I changed my forum skin and my text editor and somehow screwed up the text color... I'm trying to get it back to default this should fix it until I figure out what I did wrong.


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## Van (Nov 26, 2006)

Oh ! I thought it was a kind of clever little joke, Black light / black text .


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## tss_rocks (Nov 26, 2006)

In most cases, the UV effect when using florescent tubes is washed out with your halogen lamps/fixtures. 

I've used both the Elation and the Wildfire WF250/400/401. The UV Wash is great for small rooms, and uses where UV lighting is not the main effect.. eg. Dances, etc.

Wildfire (whether you get the 250 or one of the 400 series) will ABSOLUTELY make whatever you paint pop right out of nowhere! I've seen some really great effects one, but I've seen them done poorly too if the blacklight isn't strong enough. But that isn't in your budget to get one, so your best bet would be to rent some.

A great site to check out is www.uvfx.com, they use Wildfire exclusively...


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## gafftaper (Nov 26, 2006)

Van said:


> Oh ! I thought it was a kind of clever little joke, Black light / black text .



I wish I was that clever Van but I'm not.


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## Footer (Nov 26, 2006)

The altman blacklight instrument throws some light out there, both the fresnel and the other scoopish version. From my experience you are best off just renting the blacklight instruments because (usually) they are used so few and far between that it doenst really make since to add them to an inventory. You might want to pick up some woods glass to use where you need then rent the units later.


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## ship (Nov 28, 2006)

UV light is different than the visible light spectrum of light - phosphors in what’s projected upon heating up and luminating as opposed to reflecting. Can be washed out by intensity but not washed out by type of light.

UV-A as opposed to UV-B and UV-C is what scale of output you are looking for in light output. UV-B &C being the bad UV light. Luminous output in the visible spectrum doesn’t include the radiation that heats up and activates the phosphors in what material the light is projected upon thus you can’t use such figures as color temperature, luminous output or center beam candle power. Incandescent/halogen lights will have some UV-A output but not enough to worry about. Still the noting of the competing UV verses general intensity is a valid note.

UV lights can be metal hallide, xenon or most commonly mercury vapor. It’s a question of itself as to what’s most efficient. Look to the UV-A output as to the beam spread in comparison. These all much more efficient as lamp sources than fluorescent black light blue and better yet black light (no blue) lamps. What brand, where I work, we stock Wildfire fixtures and some black light wash light no brand fixtures and even some mercury vapor parking lot lamp type fixtures using black light lamps of varying wattage. All a question of focused light and ease of use. Altman and other companies make similar fixtures. Nocturn has just as presentable a name for UV as Wildfire, this beyond it as concept, it’s not difficult to do a UV fixture.

400w in a UV fixture is often a good thing but I would tend to rent such things if I ran a theater for such wattages in balancing output with need to own such fixtures of high power. The 250w in wash range I would more base as with the fluorescent type UV fixture in being good for small applications or limited output but not worth owning beyond adding to what is in effect.

As a theory, you might also be able to do UV out of some moving light fixtures.


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## SHARYNF (Nov 28, 2006)

For a general wash, the UV cannon lights are not bad, and are pretty cheap. The big problem is that they take a while to heat up to full output http://www.americandj.com/product.asp?ProductIDNumber=1241&cat=Black_Lights

Sharyn


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## Van (Nov 28, 2006)

Ship, You are a Warehouse of info unto yourself ! I always look forward to seeing your answers on questions like this. If nothing else you always seem to be able to put to voice some of the obervations I've made over the years but haven't been able to properly quantify. < I'm not blowing smoke. I'm being sincere for once.  >
Anyway I was talking to an LD here the other day < Jeff Forbes, Freaking Genius> He told me of a show where he had to install / construct some remote shutters, made out of roll up window shades, in front of some UV fixtures he was using. His issue arose from the fact that he had to give the fixtures enough time to warm up < they were Merc. vapor > and couldn't have the uv rays leaking all over the stage before the uv cue. I was able to sufficiently light an entire proscenium stage for a blacklight dance routine using 6, 2 tube shop light type flourescent fixture from the FOH posistion. I did have to constuct some extra reflectors the help focus the light, errr Radiation < sorry ship >


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## ship (Dec 1, 2006)

Van said:


> Ship, You are a Warehouse of info unto yourself ! I always look forward to seeing your answers on questions like this. If nothing else you always seem to be able to put to voice some of the obervations I've made over the years but haven't been able to properly quantify. < I'm not blowing smoke. I'm being sincere for once.  >
> Anyway I was talking to an LD here the other day < Jeff Forbes, Freaking Genius> He told me of a show where he had to install / construct some remote shutters, made out of roll up window shades, in front of some UV fixtures he was using. His issue arose from the fact that he had to give the fixtures enough time to warm up < they were Merc. vapor > and couldn't have the uv rays leaking all over the stage before the uv cue. I was able to sufficiently light an entire proscenium stage for a blacklight dance routine using 6, 2 tube shop light type flourescent fixture from the FOH posistion. I did have to constuct some extra reflectors the help focus the light, errr Radiation < sorry ship >



And often an entire warehouse worth of gear I have constructed or wired at one point or another by way of start to finish my design, to at least coming up with the system and supervising it's implimentation. Didn't get used but a few months back I worked some long hours on some dial 90w lamp low pressure sodium vapor wash lights that were sort of like horizontal spears of light tube within the axis of some sports lighter wash light fixtures. Such things were needed as a wash light, but given their burn up to intensity time, we had to do DMX controlled dowsers for the fixtures. Interesting project, long hours and in the end not because of the fixture that did work but because of design and what the light really looked like it was cut from the show. Seven wash lights that took five days and lots of over time, and in the end never got used.

Than was the time that I had to mount a combination 10" top hat with barn door to some PAR 64 sized black light wash lights... that's another story in what was soon afterwards cut from the production. Not lots, but it's not unusual for stuff I make to get cut from the production. No big deal on my part, I get paid either way and while making the stuff got to experiment.

Still the DMX dowser option is there for stuff with long burn up times. Such options are much like scrollers you mount to the front of the fixture. DMX dousers shold be availalble to fit on most gel frame/accessory brackets that go with the fixtures.

Never used a strobe cannon or UV cannon myself thus not advice I could convey on a different post. (Strobe lights also have a certain amount of UV-A output)


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## gafftaper (Dec 5, 2006)

Well I think I've found what I'm looking for. Although I'm sure the Wildfire and Altmans are great, the cost too much. Chauvet on the other hand, makes a 400 watt mercury vapor unit for about $300. While it's far from the same quality, it's a lot of power for not much money. Sold. 

As for why purchase instead of rent. It's about $40 for a week rental of a big black light at my local theater place. If I don't have one, I'm likely to say, yeah we could do that trick but it's not that important and it isn't worth the money and hassle to rent one. Having one or two in stock makes it easy to include a quick effect that might get cut otherwise... plus I can rent them out to the local high school at Halloween. No it's not a high priority, but if I've got a few hundred left in the budget it would be a nice toy to have in stock.


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## Van (Dec 5, 2006)

Where are you picking it up ? Hollywood ? or does DTC have an outlet up there yet ?


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## SHARYNF (Dec 5, 2006)

gafftaper said:


> Well I think I've found what I'm looking for. Although I'm sure the Wildfire and Altmans are great, the cost too much. Chauvet on the other hand, makes a 400 watt mercury vapor unit for about $300. While it's far from the same quality, it's a lot of power for not much money. Sold.
> As for why purchase instead of rent. It's about $40 for a week rental of a big black light at my local theater place. If I don't have one, I'm likely to say, yeah we could do that trick but it's not that important and it isn't worth the money and hassle to rent one. Having one or two in stock makes it easy to include a quick effect that might get cut otherwise... plus I can rent them out to the local high school at Halloween. No it's not a high priority, but if I've got a few hundred left in the budget it would be a nice toy to have in stock.


Those are the units I was talking about American DJ and Chauvet both offer them, if you troll ebay you can get them for under 200 dollars. We use them on occasion. Things to look out for, they are a very simple setup, with a cap and a ballast, and large screw in socket and the bulb. On occasion I have found that some of them just do not get the level of output that they should, usually it is a bad ballast. They take a while to heat up and get to the level of output you want, so they are not good for a quick turn on and get the UV effect, some sort of shutter system would help. They do generate a fair amount of heat, are large, but in the right situation , work quite well. The UV effect is different from the tube versions, you get the uv effect on "dayglow" type paints, but not as much of the purple coloration wash.
Sharyn


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## pattrick1 (Dec 6, 2006)

I personally own one of those Mercury Vapour 400W blacklights (the American DJ UV Canon), so I have a lot of experience in using these fixtures in and out of theatre. I got a good deal (until it crossed the border to Canada), so i couldn't resist.
For theatre, unless your doing a glow-in-the-dark Shakespeare rendition, their a real downer simply because it actualy takes a good 10 minutes for the thing to boot up. Right now, I have a piece of fabric I velco loosely to the cover while it warms up (but I DO NOT suggest doing this, I only have it on for 10 minutes, anything more and it could catch fire, I'm serious... these fixtures heat up. Another option (if money is available, which it isn't in most cases) is again a shutter device. Wybron I believe makes a few models, but I am not sure if they fix correctly on the fixture.
Today, I primarily use the UV Canon on mobile DJ events that I provide equipment to, so for this use, I must say the light is killer and really puts out an unbelieveable effect, but it is directional so it leaves back-sides dark and un-cool.
This brings me to my final point. If I were to purchase a UV fixture, I would go with the good old flourescent tubes, and multiple ones for the following reasons:
- More fixtures for the $$
- Can place more in separate areas (ie, L - C - R and rear) to eliminate directional issues
- Less wattage = more per circuit
- Cheaper bulbs
- Instant startup
- Nice and light if you move them around (compared to a bulky mercury vapour fixture)

However, there are a few upsides to the mercury vapour bulb fixtures:
- produce a more "clean" UV light with less white light compared to the flourescent tubes
- has a hanging bracket
... but on a big stage, is it really worth it.

Anyways, thats my input, and like I said I own and regularly use the Mercury Vapour fixture... if you have anymore questions I might be able to help you out... let me know, I'm here to share.

Patrick T


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## gafftaper (Dec 6, 2006)

Van said:


> Where are you picking it up ? Hollywood ? or does DTC have an outlet up there yet ?



Hey Van, I'm building a shopping list for the inventory of a brand new theater. So these Blacklights are a low priority toy if there's enough money after all the important things are purchased. As far as where, I'm going to submit to PNTA, Hollywood, Barbizon, and a place in Alabama... (I don't know the name) for my package. One of the Universities up here just recently made a big instrument purchase from a place down in Alabama that blew everyone in this corner of the country out of the water. Notice a certain company down in your neck of the woods isn't on that list, I've heard way too many unsatisfied stories about them.


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## Van (Dec 6, 2006)

Which one is that ? OSL ? Not one of my Favs I have to admit. Who did the build out of the theatre ? Stagecraft ?


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## gafftaper (Dec 6, 2006)

Van said:


> Which one is that ? OSL ? Not one of my Favs I have to admit. Who did the build out of the theatre ? Stagecraft ?



I don't want to blast a company in such a public place... check your private messages.


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## BillESC (Dec 6, 2006)

Gafftaper,

Do yourself a huge favor and forget the 400w cannons. Creating UV by subtraction yields little usable output.

Elation offers the UV Wash which is a 100w fluorscent fixture that is 1/4 the size, 1/4 the weight, offers the same output and is instant on. Oh, and its about half the price.




Here's the link: http://www.elationlighting.com/product.asp?ProductIDNumber=1206&cat=Special Effect


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## ship (Dec 7, 2006)

Also by way of structure by way of the fixture in holding the lamp, doing the yoke, attaching the ballast or in general, less rugged parts or thinner alluminum is also often used. This along with lower temperature splices and parts.

In a lighting fixture, often you do get what you pay for. Doesn't matter the brand but often it does in stuff breaking which just was not so well designed or by way of corners cut.

Working my way thru some ancient long past TMB wash light black light fixtures they no longer sell. One by one they are all simply falling apart by way of use as often the case of lots of fixtures that just are not made to be other than perminant installed.


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## ship (Dec 7, 2006)

pattrick1 said:


> - More fixtures for the $$
> - Can place more in separate areas (ie, L - C - R and rear) to eliminate directional issues
> - Less wattage = more per circuit
> - Cheaper bulbs
> ...




Fluorescent lamps are less efficient and also cannot be used without sleeves over them unless one chooses the possibility of phosphor/trace amounts of mercury - beyond the falling glass of a broken tube to be in the acting area. Could be really dangerous and could be frouned upon in a school setting unless at most a foot light.

That said, sure, why not and been used lots. Good wash of light.

Tube guards in theory by way of manufacturing are UV-stop. Never got a good answer about this question but it's a bad thing where using a tube guard over a black light lamp is concerned - sort of blocks at least some of the output as a theory.

That's a limitating factor. Shouldn't use them without tube guards, yet the tube guards in theory at least block some of the UV-A output.

Can rig the things to hang but they really are not as safe to be hanging plus they tend to take up a lot of pipe space. Could be some NEC code issues dependant upon wiring also but not as much of a problem.

This said, I'm a fan of fluorescent fixtures also, just with cautions for applications.


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## gafftaper (Dec 7, 2006)

BillESC said:


> Gafftaper,
> Do yourself a huge favor and forget the 400w cannons. Creating UV by subtraction yields little usable output.



Subtraction... I never thought about how they work. So are you saying that the Mercury Vapor instruments essentially are just a Woods Glass treated Lamp?


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## gafftaper (Dec 7, 2006)

Re: Ships concern about flourescent tube safety. It looks like that Elation product Bill posted a link to has a glass cover on the instrument... pretty slick looking. Like you suggeested, it's probably not the most durable product but it looks like it's got some good safe bang for the buck.


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## BillESC (Dec 7, 2006)

We have several hundred of the UV Washes being used by mobile DJs every weekend with surprisingly few calls for replacement bulbs.

We use two of the UV Washes for a dance show we do every year. We hang them 15' high over the apron of the stage and get complete coverage of the 44' x 28' stage area.

Yes, the cannons simply filter all of the 400w mecury vapor bulbs output except the UV wave length.


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## BillESC (Dec 7, 2006)

Gafftaper,

BTW, is the Moore theatre still in operation in downtown Seattle? I did 6 weeks there in 1971.


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## gafftaper (Dec 7, 2006)

BillESC said:


> Gafftaper,
> BTW, is the Moore theatre still in operation in downtown Seattle? I did 6 weeks there in 1971.



The Moore is still going strong. I sort of know the guy who is the TD there. It's one of those really well run theaters that is badly in need of a few million for a renovation. There are concerts there all the time. The good news is I think it's owned by the people who own the Paramount theater. They just spent a ton on a beautiful renovation at the Paramount so there might be hope for some money to be spent at the Moore too. No inside info there, just my speculation.


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## SHARYNF (Dec 7, 2006)

BillESC said:


> We have several hundred of the UV Washes being used by mobile DJs every weekend with surprisingly few calls for replacement bulbs.
> We use two of the UV Washes for a dance show we do every year. We hang them 15' high over the apron of the stage and get complete coverage of the 44' x 28' stage area.
> Yes, the cannons simply filter all of the 400w mecury vapor bulbs output except the UV wave length.



I agree that the UV Washes are lighter, certainly safer than the traditional long tube models but AFAIK the fluorescent tube works the same way filtering out the visible spectrum and that the advantage of mercury vapor is that it actually emits more output in the UV spectrum. 

http://members.misty.com/don/uvbulb.html#fl

Sharyn


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## Van (Dec 7, 2006)

SHARYNF said:


> I agree that the UV Washes are lighter, certainly safer than the traditional long tube models but AFAIK the fluorescent tube works the same way filtering out the visible spectrum and that the advantage of mercury vapor is that it actually emits more output in the UV spectrum.
> 
> http://members.misty.com/don/uvbulb.html#fl
> 
> Sharyn


 
Forgive my lameness, what does "AFAIK" stand for ?


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## SHARYNF (Dec 7, 2006)

Sorry AS FAR AS I KNOW (too much text messaging)
Sharyn


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## gafftaper (Dec 7, 2006)

So, if a Mercury Vapor black light is just a lamp with a woods glass filter built in. What's the difference in output between that and throwing a woods glass filter on a Source4? Does a Mercury Vapor lamp put out more UV than a HPL 750?


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## SHARYNF (Dec 7, 2006)

That is my understanding but Ship might know more. 
Sharyn


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## jklak (Dec 7, 2006)

I bought a Chauvet 400watt "Black Shadow" for $320.00 from Theatrefx.com and was pretty pleased with the results. I was trying to light UV paint on costumes from a pretty long throw. I regretted not having more than one instrument and yes I had to take my other lighting way down to achieve the effect. However, if you are working in a black box and wanting to light a drop I would think that two of these 400 instruments would give you the "pop" you're looking for.


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## ship (Dec 7, 2006)

gafftaper said:


> So, if a Mercury Vapor black light is just a lamp with a woods glass filter built in. What's the difference in output between that and throwing a woods glass filter on a Source4? Does a Mercury Vapor lamp put out more UV than a HPL 750?



Simple answer, yes.

Arc source lamps put out a broad spectrum of visible and invisible UV & IR light due to the arc going thru them. A very broad amount of light centerd around what gasses are used to maintain or stabilize the arc of light. Sodium Vapor lamps for instance will have very limited amounts of UV light but high amounts of IR light. 

DUV 35	Philips#29345-6(293451)	HID, SE. MPXL HR. (High UV Output)	35w/85v	T-10.7mm	3.8mm	LCL 27.1mm	P32d	Burn Horz ±10 (UV-A 4.5w, UV-B 0.8w, UV-C 0.37w ∼1,500 Lum	500hr


HPA 400SE	Philips #198228	Med. Pressure CL, SE. HID, MH	400w/198v	T-14mm	29mm	LCL 51mm	GY 9.5	(UV-A700w, -B120w, -C10w µW/cm Sq.) Horz ±10̊ >470w/<4.8w	750hr

This types of light having a lot of UV includes fluorescent, mercury vapor, xenon and high intensity discharge lamps. (Though HID lamps are a mixture of gasses including sodium and mercury normally optimized to provide most of the light in the visible light spectrum.) 

Dependant upon what type of discharge lamp it is, much of the light isn't even in the visible spectrum of light - this especially with mercury vapor or mercury vapor based fluorescent lamps. The arc or lightning within the glass tube is so intense that it's beyond one's ability to see it. Think of welding - you would tend to go blind if in arc welding you didn't have a special viser. That's the same type of light output in most arc source lamps esepcially in an un-filtered xenon, HID and Mercury Vapor source. This verses say brazing where a less intensive visor is necessary might be say a sodium vapor type of arc as opposed to xenon gas maintained arc of light. The rest of the arcs for the most part fall in between these types that is closely linked to color temperature. 

Now think color temperature of most arc lamps or the range of color temperatures about 1,6K to 7,2K of arc lamps verses that 2,6K to 3,5K range of color temperature to that of a filament lamp. If the nm scale of UV light or magnetic spectrum doesn't mean much at this point, think color temperature instead and you will get some similar sense of what UV is in output. Not the same scale but both having some simularities. A un-color corrected incandescent lamp cannot do 7,2K - the filament burns up at around 3,5K. You can color filter/color correct to 7,2K but in doing so the amount of useful light given white light is a bell curve of all light - just more in the center than toards the edges, that light not blocked or filtered in absorbsion that would be 7,2K is very limited. Same with UV output out of a incandescent or taken for example HPL source. Yes, you can install a UV lens into a Leko, output of UV light would be about in the couple of candlepower range however once all other light was blocked out. Perhaps as a rough guess, you would have a 250 candlepower UV light output.

Coated phosphor coated arc source lights such as most fluorescents and mercury vapor lamps, or such light fixtures normally light by way of the UV light discharge from the arc, heating up the phosphors coating the inside walls of the lamp which incandescess by themselves not by way of the arc to provide the light. Note the greenish hue to often older phosphor coated school classrooms. That's a CRI or color rendering index question that's another topic but it's having to do with the phosphors used and or the amount of spikes of energy within the visible light spectrum which is useful as to how true to 100% sunlight and incandescent lamps that arc source spectrum of light is. Such phosphors in a normal arc source lamps coating also block out the often harmful UV output from the arc. Other types of arc source lamps have a more mid range visible light spectrum of light and filter out the UV and even IR light. UV Measured as: irrad at 0hr µW/cm Square. nm = Nanometer - A unit of wavelength equal to 10-9 meter. There is no conversion chart of specific conversion between color temperature and UV output - it's only a related scale.

On special coated UV lamps, the phosphor coating is replaced by a glass (above) or coating which blocks the harmful UV output, passes the UV-A black light output and to some extent - especially with black light blue fluorescent lamps, outputs a blue/purple light that's more visible and often more associated with black light output but really is not. Diazo lamp UV radiation is also to some extent useful. Rephography (sun tan) lamps are also good UV-A along with UV in general sources of light. These types of lamps as opposed to UV type lamps also let pass the more dangerous UV-B and UV-C light thru them. In other words, they will allow your UV paint to glow and let you get skin cancer and a tan at the same time. All of this is also distance based - the further away you are, the less the longwavelengths of UV light will effect you. It's a concept to use a Diazo or Rephotography lamp once filtered or lensed also as a UV lamp and in fact, some types of UV fixture use such lamps as a HPA Metal hallide arc source lamp. The 320nm range is what many tanning lamps will most operate at but they also have lots of other UV light output. I stock some tanning lamps that are also used in UV fixtures.

You can get UV lamps including the sandard 48" ones either way - Black Bight, or Black Light Blue. On a true black light lamp, you won't see a blue output unless some of the UV light is passing thru lenses or partially stopped by the glass. This will appear to some extent blue/purple but there will be no observable light output other than in reflection of what phosphors react to the light.



An arc source lamp is different than that of a filament lamp.

HPL lamps and all filament lamps, instead of having an arc that provides the light, they have a resister coil of tungsten and other compounds doped into them which resists the flow of current and sort of burns up by way of amperage running thru a wire with lots of resistance or is resisted in burning up to the extent of this resistance is turned to heat and the metal gets hot enough it incandescesses. Such burning of the metal - literally getting beyond red hot into white hot than provides light in much the same way as you can see not by the flames once they burn down but late at night by way of the coals of a fire place glowing. Those coals still glowing are similar to the metal of a filament resistant to the current flow. Most of the resistance is turned into heat with only some of it in output by way of the visible light spectrum just as an arc source provides most of it's output in other than visible light but a much more efficient amount of it.

That visible light / heat / light waves is part of the electromagnetic spectrum. About 380nm for violet to 770nm for red in wavelength. IR light is in the 770 to 1106 nm range and cannot be seen by the human eye but can be sensed by heat on the skin. UV light is in the 100 to 380nm range. It's further broken up into UV-A in the 315 to 400nm range (this is the useful UV light), UV-B 280 to 315nm and UV-C 100 to 280nm all useful for sun tanning lamps and or that cause skin cancer. The warnings on moving lights are due to UV B & C output of the lamps. This UV output normally effects the phosphors of a fluorescent lamp or coated mercury vapor lamp that convert unseen UV light into light from the visible spectrum, or the phosphors of a UV paint that do the same. UV is sort of a long wavelength light, IR is a short wavelength heat which can also be transformed by way of such things as the inner capsules on say a CDM type lamp where the ceramic capsule gets so hot that it glows in a way similar to a tungsten filament glowing. This is by me not much studying it yet - converting high wavelength IR light into visible light.

HIE150w/U/BDX	Venture #33051	Blue SE. MH. HID Enclosed Fixt. 77% Satur.	150 w	E-54mm LCL 89mm	E-27	(HPS Ballast + Ign) Any Burn Pos.	462nm 5,000hr
HIE150w/U/GDX	Venture #33520	Green SE.MH. HID Enclosed Fixt 46% Satur.	150 w	E-54mm LCL 89mm	E-27	(HPS Ballast + Ign) Any Burn Pos.	535nm 5,000hr
MH-400w/U/PDX	Venture #33891	Pink SE. MH. HID Enclosed Fixt. 28% Satur.	400 w	ED-37 LCL 7"	E-39	(M59) Univ. Burn	635nm 5,000hr
MHL-250	Ushio #5000089	CL. DE, MH, HID UV-Blacklight Lamp	250w/125v	T-15.5mm	15.5mm	MOL 68mm	R 7s	UV-Housing Only, (Spect. Rng. 300-450nm) 500hr


‘TL’40w/03-RS	Philips #928011300300	Actinic Radiation Fluorescent 380-420nm	40w/101v	T-40.5mm MOL 1,213.6mm	G-13	Diazo Copy/Aquarium/Phototheorpy	Diazo 9.2w	UV-A 0.35w	15%=2,000hr

F40T10BLB	Ushio #3000138	Fluorescent Black Light Blue	39.5w/106v	T-10 MOL 47.17"	G-13	UV-A - 368nm UV-A 8.1w	5,000hr
TL 40/08RS	Philips #928011300800	Fluorescent Black Light Blue LP. MV	40w/101v	T-40.5mm MOL 1,213.6mm	G-14	(MOLpt 1,199.4mm) Long Wave UV-A UV-A 9w	15%=2,000hr
F40T10BLB	Ushio #3000138	Fluorescent Black Light Blue	39.5w/106v	T-10 MOL 47.17"	G-13	UV-A - 368nm UV-A 8.1w	5,000hr









Glass, plastic and other coatings normally absorb the long wavelength UV output of lamps thus my warning about tube guards in it being possible that a tube guard on a black light fluorescent lamp, could be limitating the output - this as with various lenses unless of those glasses and or lenses specifically designed to let pass the UV wavelength. Don't know much about "woods glass" it's a term I have heard before, but this would be assumed to be a type of glass that lets the longwave UV light pass without much blocking of it. Suprasil quartz is another type of glass that allows UV - that's also useful for xenon lamps in output to produce UV and in general allow for extra light. The lenses of a standard Fresnel, Leko or PAR would tend to block UV output, just as with most mercury vapor lamps, the only lamps permissible to be used in open fixtures (those without lenses) are the coated ones. Clear Mercury vapor lamps would be harmful in an open fixture.

(note also mention of wavelengths, TV, radio frequency, X-Rays etc. are also wavelengths of short of long type - visible wavenghts of light or those associated with light are within the same type of radiation.) Theater is science! Study Science and you master Theater.

Incandescent lamps do have a certain amount of UV output. A HPL lamp by itself will tend to have the harmful effects such as fading or discoloration on things like paintings and even tanning people given time, however this output is very limited, and normally the UV output is blocked by the lenses and color filters. MR-16 type lamps that have lenses often will also be "UV-Block", "UV-Stop", "UV-Cut" or "UV-Control" dependant upon what term is chosen by the manufacturer. This lens by itself blocks/absorbs some of the UV output, and often will have a special coating on it to further absorb the UV output. Such coatings are also used on arc lamps at times especially if a clear lamp making use of the small arc gap for control of the beam of the light or in having a fairly exposed beam of light without much by way of lenses or filters. The amount of UV output of a filament lamp is very limited. Filament lamps provide most of their light in the visible spectrum of light by way of a bell curve which doesn't have much light falling outside it and into the UV spectrum of light. There is some UV light output, but not a huge amount. See the Violet to Red nm scale above, than fill in your ROYGBV color spectrum to that visible spectrum of light. Most of the light produced by a filament lamp is withing the bell curve with only limited amounts of light outside the visible spectrum of light. There is a long way to go before the seemingly "blue/white" light of a HPL lamp gets into the UV range of light. It will have more UV light than say a incandescent lamp, and much more than say a candle but not nearly as much as a fluorescent or normal UV source of light. Even the incandescent black light party bulbs are more purple bulbs than real UV output lamps. There might be some filters and coatings to boost the UV output but not enough. IT's more a party bulb in providing the blue/purple light most associate with UV but not much in making phosphors glow.

Distance and the law of squares also has an effect on UV output - in other words, the further away, the less UV output - especially from a incandescent source of light. A primary other purpose of a fixture that has a reflector being more efficient than that of a fluorescent lamp is that the beam of light is reflected in a specific direction thus more efficient. Sort of the same question of using a Leko over a scoop or bare light bulb on stage. If you want to direct your light as opposed to wash it, a UV fixture will be more efficient by way of optics - beyond any lamp to lamp comparisons.


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## gafftaper (Dec 8, 2006)

SHARYNF said:


> That is my understanding but Ship might know more.
> Sharyn



Yep. It does look like Ship know's a LITTLE more. Dang Ship when are you going to write your book. You are amazing!


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## PhantomD (Dec 8, 2006)

Nah, you'd need a pickup truck to take the book anywhere!

Ship you are amazing!


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## SHARYNF (Dec 8, 2006)

NOPE It'll be about 5 dvd's ;-) not enough trees for printing

SO Ship in your estimation the 400 watt merc vapor cannons, with a metal grill should outperform the 150 watt Flu glass protected? 
Sharyn


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## ship (Dec 8, 2006)

No idea. Get me the lamp specs and "estimated" photometrics of the fixture and I would be no better off than anyone else. See the discussion and observations above of the Mac 250 verses the Mac 700 fixture one would assume out preforms. 

Of those two on lamps

In assuming a Phillips MSD 250/2 lamp:
(CRI 65) x0.289y0.305	8,500̊K	18,000 Lumens	3,000hr

In assuming a Osram HTI 700w/D4/75 lamp:
7,500̊K	59,000 lumens/60,000cd/cm²	750hr

If one notes the luminous output of the two lamps, the Mac 700 should hands down be brighter by 2/3. If one compares color temperature based lumens, (much as with a HX-600/HPL lamp in comparison to a 1Kw FEL lamped Leko,) what appears brighter is not persay. - Only by way of color temperature voltage and fixture efficiency appears brigher. (Also in the case of the FEL add in the 120v/115v differences and smaller more efficient filaments to this mix, but a HPL/HX-600/FLK realistically is only realistically as bright as say a 800w lamp and not even as bright as an HX-800 lamp - 22,000 Lumens. Check the specs... a HPL 575/HX-600/FLK is at about 1,650 lumens - a FEL lamp is at about 27,500 lumens in output, now how is it that a HPL could in reality be as bright as a FEL in luminous output other than by way of voltage, optics and more specifically color temperature. Lots of wasted light on a FEL lamp - barbarically wasted light on a FEL and the amber shift, but still lamp to lamp, 1/3 more output than any HX-600/FLK/HPL 575w lamp. In sheer Luminous output, even a HPL 750 does not produce as much light.) 

By way of filaments, the Mac 700 lamp uses a 4mm arc gap the Mac 250 uses a lamp with a 5mm arc gap so it's a little less efficient. One would think that other than in color temperature, that hands down the Mac 700 fixture should be 2/3 brighter - thus the problem with what specs show you verses what real life shows you. 

One assumes that a 400w lamp out preforms a 150w lamp but it depends upon the specific application, lamp and fixture.


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## Schniapereli (Dec 12, 2006)

...wow...ship's talk looks like "leet speak"...I can feel my IQ dropping...
Your effortless fluency in eloquent jumbo is astounding, and your cooperation with us peons is much appreciated...(and by us I mean me...) What the heck do you do for a living?...
Well, feeling my brain slowly turn to mush, I am going to ask a series of annoying questions, from which anyone may answer if they want to...(provided they know more than I do...which is comparatively small...so mostly everyone...=))
This probably isn't the best place to post this (probably should start a new thread) but, good gravy, I'm going to post it here...enjoy
I know HPL's are used for s4 ERS, and for S4 Pars (with a little stick thingy) and that BTW's are used for Fresnels (correct me if I'm wrong for any of this), but what is the name of the huge kind used for a scoop?
Do they just use HPL's for follow spots? (not one of the nice HMI arcs, just a tungsten one. Lycian Midget for example..)
What exactly does HPL and BTW stand for for a bulb? (or is it just code...) Same thing for whatever is used for a scoop.
Why do the lamps for S4 PARs need the pokey stick thingy, and don't just use the regular metal clampy thingies?
Are the HPL's not as bright as the BTW's even though they have the same wattage? (the BTW seems to have more filament surface...)
Is my terminology correct in saying that an HPL uses a "coiled coil" filament, and the BTW is "bi-planar"? What are the names of the other kinds?
I heard that some bulbs are burn-base-down, and some are burn-base-up, but I also heard that the modern bulbs don't matter...is that true, or are the fresnels at my school in life-threatening jeopardy?
Why can't HID's be dimmed? (Why do they need a ballast, and what the gravy does it do?)
More of a survey, but do most theaters have repeated circuit numbers on their battens? So far only 1/3 I have seen do, but 9/10 people I talk to say that they are all like that...
Whoever has enough time and patience to answer all of these gets eleventy hundred browny points!!!


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## gafftaper (Dec 12, 2006)

Schniapereli, Since I started this thread I'll try to help clean it up a little by answering some of your questions...

-What is the name of the huge lamp used in a scoop... it all depends on which scoop you are talking about. 

-HPL, BTW, BTN, BTR, EHG, FEL etc... are all codes describing a style of lamp there are a couple hundred lamps out there. ANSI is responsible for creating the codes. There is no real meaning to the letters, they are just to identify that a lamp fit's a certain set of dimensions, electrical and photometric characteristics. I did a quick search and found this chart of some instruments and their preferred lamp. It's far from complete but it will certainly give you an idea of how complex it can be. http://virtualightstore.com/info/theatrical.html

-Are HPL's not as bright as BTW's even if they use the same wattage? Wattage is a measurement only of how much energy is consumed. It' is not a measurement of how bright the lamp is. Lumens is the measurement of how bright the light is. If I ask you how bright a lamp is and you say "575 Watts", that's the same as me asking how fast your car can go and you saying "25 miles to the gallon". The real question is how efficient is that lamp at producing light with the watts it burns up. Head down to your local mega-hardware store and spend a 10 minutes reading the packaging in the household light bulb department. Every package lists Watts and Lumens. You'll be amazed at the differences in lumen output. To make things more confusing in the theatrical lighting world, you also have to look at how well a specific lighting instrument does at capturing light from the lamp and sending it where we want it to go. Two different brands of ERS can have very different lumen outputs with the same wattage consumed. It all depends on the mirrors and lenses inside the instrument. So, back to your question, are an HPL and a BTW of equal wattage the same brightness? Probably not exactly the same but close. However, the end output of lumens depends more on the efficiency of the lighting instrument you put it in than the lamp output itself. Back in the old days when the Source4 first came out, Everyone was amazed that a 575 watt lamp could dramatically out perform a 750 watt lamp in a good old Altman 360.

-The Burn Base up/down question. Lamp position is something you need to pay attention to. There are still a lot of instruments out there that have to have a lamp in a specific position. It should be clearly labeled on the lamp packaging. I've never used them but there are even some lamps that have to be +/- 4 degrees from Horizontal. 

-HID/Ballast questions. Your typical filament lamp operates on the principle of incandescence. You take a piece of metal, shove a bunch of electricity through it, it gets hot and glows. If you shove more electricity through it, it glows even more. An HID lamp is a gaseous discharge based lamp. Going to your chemistry class... if you take a gas and run the right electricity through it, it will glow. This is how neon signs work and PART of what is going on in fluorescent tube. You can't just run a bunch of 110 power through that tube of gas, it has to be "tuned" to work with the gas and maintain a perfect constant flow of electricity. That's what the ballast does. 

-Repeated circuits. In the last 10 years the price of dimmers has dropped dramatically. They used to be extremely expensive and theaters often had a very limited number of dimmers. Because of this you typically had more circuits than dimmers and a patch panel in the back somewhere that allowed you to choose which circuit was powered by which dimmer. Another factor was that you had to use every spare watt of power available. So you would often need to run three or four instruments on the same circuit. In order to make this easier, theaters were wired with repeated circuits (think of it as built in two-fers). These days theaters can afford 5-10 times the number of dimmers they used to have so there is no longer the need for all the multiples. There is one other reason for repeated circuits on electrics and that is for strip lights. You will see four circuits that repeat all the way across every 6 feet so that your strips can all be circuited together. 

That's it for me, someone else can handle the rest.


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## Chris15 (Dec 12, 2006)

To add to the answer on HID dimming.
HID lamps operate by using two electrodes, seperated by a gap. You get an arc between the two electrodes. This arc excites the gas in the lamp - be it mercury vapour, sodium, or what not. I assume that you are aware of the time that it takes to warm up a discharge lamp. This is the process of exciting (warming up) all the gas so that it starts to emit light. Providing this ignition is one function of the ballast. The distance an arc can jump is directly linked to the voltage. If the voltage to a HID lamp was to be lowered by dimming etc. then the lamp may not be able to maintain the arc and if the arc goes, so does the entire lamp's light output. Dimming also changes the nature of the wave, and I assume that this has an adverse effect on the lamp and / or ballast, though I'm not sure how.

Hope that makes some degree of sense and helps.


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## Van (Dec 12, 2006)

Schniapereli said:


> What exactly does HPL and BTW stand for for a bulb? (or is it just code...)


 
Your'e exactly right when I first started < before the days of google searches and the like> I thought I could figure out the "coding" of lamps I found out a long time later that there is no code , no Logical code and things like FEL, BTW, HPL, EGH, etc. are designations assigned to lamps by ANSI. I don't have time for more of these right now but maybe soon if Ship doesn't beat me to it.


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## ship (Dec 13, 2006)

Wow, BTW ... A lamp I have no notes on it’s existence of. Yep, in some ways lamp speak does turn one’s mind to mush - thus my own, in other ways (is this a plot against me... a lamp I don’t know about, ... where did you hear about the existence of a BTW lamp?)


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## ship (Dec 13, 2006)

What’s the large type used for a scoop? Depends upon the scoop but normally a DKZ. Nice lamp, back a few years ago, they still had silica sand in them to swirl away the blackening of the filament. Sort of fragile lamp. I’m prone to the Thorn DKZ/DSE lamp these days - a bit smaller in size - but again it depends upon which specific scoop you have.


HPL (non-ANSI but sort of one) BTW not known to be but possibly also ANSI (American National Standards Institute) lamp. It’s an industry standard with lots of leeway in what lamp is used but in general that all lamps of a type will for the most part if following the standard be the same or similar in type and output. This ass opposed to non-standard lams that can call themselves what ever they want and not be standard. Ballasts to arc source fixtures also use the ANSI standard - but not the lamps. Thus you get crap like the MSI 1200w/S from Phillips seeming like the HMI 1200w/S from Osram but in actuality the MSR 1200 DE/SA being the lamp intended to emulate the Osram better quality lamp.

Or was that the UMI 1200/HB, CSR 1200s/DE, DI-12/s. With time Radium, Wolfram and Eiko will also have similar arc source Mac 2K lamps, all with different lamp codes also. For especially a moving light lamp, there is no ANSI code - thus MSR means nothing more than Phillips lamp speak for a type of their lamps and nobody will other than at best simulate this three letter code of lamp.
Or even the HTI 1200w/D7/60 from even Osram that’s the same basic lamp - different lamp code

Midget at least Midget II fixture uses the same lamp for all intensive purposes as a Altman 1000 fixture - just using more advanced lamps - all similar to a Leko lamp in being the same basic class of lamp. All incandescent/halogen lamps instead of arc lamps. The 750w/115v Phillips #6981P lamp is a darned good lamp - same lamp as developed for and used on the High End Systems Color Command fixture.

HPL lamps are similar to this type of lamp except they have permanently mounted heat sink to the lamp base as opposed to using the lamp base for a heat sink. Way back when in these two classes of lamp being all the same except for the heat sink, Phillips in the GLA/GLC line had removable heat sinks to make what worked in a say Altman fixture, also work in a S-4 fixture. ETC with their licence to do HPL lamps probably didn’t like this and Phillips bought the licence to make HPL lamps later. Should you remove the heat sink from a HPL lamp and install a locking slot, it will work in this lycian midget, just as a normal Midget lamp will work in a S-4 fixture, it just won’t have the heat sink to retain it in the fixture or help cool it. Same basic lamp, one has a heat sink, one does not.

“Why do the lamps for S4 PARs need the pokey stick thingy, and don't just use the regular metal clampy thingies?”

Indeed and as soon as I know what you are talking about...



If assuming by BTW you mean BTN, than also are recognizing the surface are of the filament grid between the lamp as one being smaller than another - you are recognizing something important about lamps.

First, nope. It’s three parts. 

Brightness persay is color temperature. A lamp that’s more blue/white will look brighter than a dim candle - even if it’s less in actual light output. Say in going to an extreme, a single blue Christmas light will look brighter than that of a candle, yet the candle is actally putting out more light one can see by. Intensity than is the key. Or Luminous output and or candlepower - how many candles of light upon a one square foot surface one foot away...

In lumious intensity, the 750w/115v HPL has the 750w/120v BTN beat for intensity. Remember that the BTN as a halogen lamp was a second generation type lamp improvement upon the incandescent DDY lamp. (Amongst others.) It’s “halogen effect” allowed a more efficient light output lamp even in color temperature than that of the incandescent version, but it’s early 1970's technology. The HPL lamp is third generation technology in both lowering the voltage thus rising the output by way of for each percentage of voltage, the output rises 3.6% and it now being a 115v lamp instead of 120v lamp, it sees a difference in output, also in a more efficient engineered lamp, it can burn with more output but for 200 hours less or even less than this in expected lamp life. In providing more output by way of about 4,400 lumens in output more on the HPL lamp, you give up about 200 hours of expected lamp life. This all at their respective voltages which changes things even more - the BTN at 120v thus often more than 500hours of lamp life but also less luminous output given it mostly won’t see a full 120v voltage applied to it. The HPL lamp on the other hand is rated for 300 hours of life at 115v and often it will be operating slightly over it’s rated voltage thus the lamp life goes down but also the luminous output goes up. This also in adding 0.5% color temperature difference in percentage change by way of applied voltage. 

You now have two lamps rated for the same wattage and different voltages that beyond lamp efficiency have advantages and disadvantages in being very different lamps.

Add to this a third factor in lamps and that’s the filament or arc gap. The more pinprick the source of light, the more efficient the lamp especially within the billiards table that it is that is a fixture. The smaller the filament, the more efficiently the reflector and lenses can send out light collected and focused or reflected into the desired beam of light as opposed to being caught as stray light off the gate, baffles or in just having say a field verses beam angle to at least a Leko’s light output. The larger the filament and a BTN has a large filament, the more of it’s light especially towards the edges of the filament, will never be efficient light to light the stage with. It just hits the reflector and gets absorbed by the fixture in being at the wrong angle. The smaller the filament - be it stacked or a type of smaller filament grid, the more compact the source of light and the more light can accurately get out of the fixture and focused upon your target. Stage three in lamp development was when lamps started to get smaller filaments thus were able to take better advantage of refined optics for more light output. 

BI-Plane is a stacked in three dimension filament, “coiled coil” refers to the filament wire itself having two wires taking up the space of one. Different terms and meanings and neither as per saying size of filament or fully enplaning what is going on.


On base up/down that’s a question of once a filament - no matter if in halogen or incandescent lamp, once that filament becomes white hot, it tends to sag. These filaments require filament hangers to support them so as not to sag. Such a hanger often will well support and keep the small shape in one direction but not another. If not supporting the filament, it tends to follow gravity in falling out of place and even potentially melting it’s way thru the glass of the lamp, or at least no longer being held tight in the lamp’s center. Most modern lamps with their smaller halogen lamps can have smaller filaments or at least in general the lamp is rated for supporting an even hotter filament yet thus more rugged in burn position. Most but not all halogen lamps are universal burn but some especially the RSC types still have a +/- burn rating due to the length of filament exposed.

HID’s at times can be dimmed but remember that discharge lamps are not resistance to a filament lamps - they instead provide an arc of light which requires a certain amount of voltage applied to it so as to maintain the arc of light. Remove too much of that voltage supplying the amperage and you have problems in many but not nearly all cases. Very much depends upon the lamp. Ballasts supply that voltage and also supply a amperage based upon that voltage needed by the lamp to strike an arc of light between the two electrodes. No ballast for quick burst of energy and all you really have is a transformer in supplying a specified voltage. Such won’t help unless you have a sufficient amperage of that voltage applied to so the energy can jump the arc gap.


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## Schniapereli (Dec 13, 2006)

(it is probably BTN, and not BTW...)

For the S4 PAR, we took the bulb out, and it had a thin metal rod going down on one of the sides of what looked like a normal HPL lamp. It was just there to help keep it in. (we could replace it with a regular HPL, but it did not stay in easily) I don't know if the bulb came with the stick, or somebody had to attatch the stick. That's all I know about it...


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## ship (Dec 14, 2006)

That little stick of metal or "spring pin" if I understand you correctly is stuck into a slot on the heat sink of the lamp correct?


If that's the case, than it has a purpose and it's not to better hold the lamp in. 

The purpose of that little stick - given it's what I think you are saying, is to prevent this lamp from being plugged into the wrong fixture. This stick either designates this lamp as a 750w or 230v lamp dependant upon what side of the heat sink that pin was on.

Way back when in the S-4 fixtures, they were only rated at 575w and used 18ga wire in the fixture wire which is not rated for a 750w lamp. Thus when the 750w lamp came out, it needed something to prevent it from being installed into the 575w fixture - only to be installed in the upgraded 750w fixtures or A-Modified 575w fixtures. (Long story on differences, I used to do upgrades.)

So, that pin is there to prevent the 750w lamp from being installed into a 575w rated fixture. It's also kind of there to help one verify the wattage of the lamp - see pin, know it's 750w. (Sometimes on the older lamps the printing used to rub off also.) 

This all as opposed to 230v lamps where the pin is on the other side at least I believe for the 575w version and what is it both sides for the 750w lamp? Don't know, I only have 575w/230v lamps in stock. (They come back from Euro tours at times.) 

At least in the case of the 750w/115v lamp, it won't plug into a Euro fixture, or at least in theory won't. On the other hand, the 230v lamp does plug into the American fixture (I use such lamps to test 208v line voltage and or 120 or 208v to 230v transformer power supplies at times.)


Don't remove the sticks, and if you have them still, put them back in by way of a bench vise to insert them. Such sticks are useful and have a purpose.


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## Schniapereli (Dec 14, 2006)

OOOOOOOHHH...
that makes sense.
I just checked the bulbs today to get more details, and indeed all of the 750W had the sticks on them, and the 575W did not. Since all of our ERS's take 575W, and our PAR's take 750W, that is why I got confused. That would also explain why the bases of the bulbs (heat sink I think you called it...) were different colors, and probably why the 575W bulbs did not fit in the 750W PAR sockets, but still worked (...and come to think of it, weren't as bright)

I also played with the ERS's today, and I think I figured out exactly where the image flips. I put a gobo in, and took the barrel entirely out. It was hard to see the gobo without the lenses (I shined it on the cyc.) but I moved the shutters around, and I noticed that without the lens tube, it was not inverted. I also loke through the lens tube of a 36 degree, and found the focal point was about 3-4 inches out from the barrel, and was definitely inverted. So, I think (correct me if I am still wrong) that the 2nd focal point of the reflector (as in the 1st being the bulb) is before the shutters and gobo, thus ending my pathetic confusion.
Just the exact locations of the focal points was throwing me off, but now I understand.

Thanks for your patience and help...


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## ship (Dec 29, 2006)

I'm noting of late a lot of compact fluorescent Black Light Blue lamps on the market of late.

Such a lamp while I have not tried or studied into it, should have a very interesting on the good side output in the UV range.

One might even be able to lamp up a scoop and or a circuit of strip/cyc light with such lamps given one can deal with the flicker on mode. 

Such lamps as long as sufficient in wattage - a combined 75w should also work fairly well on a dimmer - granted the lamp life would be shot by way of dimming, but should last a few shows at least.

Interesting lamps, give them a play test and review.


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## lieperjp (Apr 1, 2008)

Has anyone ever used anything by Elimination Lighting? It looks pretty off-brand, but they make a 400-watt black light for only $189.95... 

Here's the link: http://www.eliminatorlightingdirect.com/400_Watt_Blacklight_Fixture_p/ebk-400.htm

I think that I would have to do some major research before buying one of these... I just need it to bring out UV paint on costumes and set pieces.


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## lieperjp (Apr 1, 2008)

And upon further review, 24 lbs is a lot to hang on my near-capacity bar...


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## gafftapegreenia (Apr 1, 2008)

That company looks like one of the many who sells lights from the various DJ companies (Chauvet, American DJ, and MBT being the biggest) with the occassional re-branding of fixtures they didn't invent. 

What about UV leds at 8 pounds, or a more conventional blacklight at 18 pounds?


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## gafftaper (Apr 1, 2008)

At the conclusion of this threat I got some Elation UV washes and I'm pretty impressed with them. They've got a pretty good kick and are small, lightweight, and fairly cheap. They aren't Wildfires, but they'll do just fine.


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