# The ultimate stock flats food for thought



## last125eagle (Jan 16, 2010)

I have been thinking about the ultimate ways to make Hollywood style stock flats. 

I personally love Broadway style and even soft flats, but no one seems to use them around here. 

This is what I have so far

basics. 

1x4 stiles, toggles, and rails.
toogles two feet on ceneter
stapled with 1 3/16 narrow crown staples
wood glued

face in laun 1/4 inch
staples with 3/4 narrow crown staples
wood glued

now what i am thinking

Finger jointing the corners to keep them from separating. 

Or maybe trim the wood to allow for an inset key stone at the corners and maybe toggles. Keystones kind of get in the way though.

That or I could try a corner brace. 

What else might you guys add to the ultimate stock Hollywood flat.


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## Footer (Jan 17, 2010)

I do toggles on 4' centers and don't any issue. The keystone would just get in the way. 

Really, the idea of a stock flat is a bit of a misnomer. Most flats only last 4 productions before they get beat up/painted enough where they are useless. A stock 4x8 costs about 30 dollars. I try to make good flats but don't put any more money in them then necesary. 

In the terms of ideal, I would dutchman the entire thing after it is built. Of course, backpaint everything. 

My version of the ultimate stock flat.....

Steel flat using 1x1 .049 MT1010. Toggles at 4'. Standard bolt holes (3" in each side, top and bottom, holes at 3" above and below the 4' center). Cover with luan. Dutchman entire flat. 

To me, the best stock flat is the spaceframe. It allows you to mix and match to make whatever size seamless flat that you want. Only downside is you have to re-skin it if you want to change sizes.


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## Les (Jan 17, 2010)

Footer said:


> Really, the idea of a stock flat is a bit of a misnomer. Most flats only last 4 productions before they get beat up/painted enough where they are useless.



Ugh. I wish that was the case at my local community theatre. Their flat storage is like a time capsule spanning what seems like decades of shows. They're usually quite heavy given the 1/8" of paint on them. Heck I wouldn't be surprised that if on some, the muslin has completely deteriorated leaving only the paint, on which they apply... More paint!!!

You should see the stage floor...


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## Anvilx (Jan 17, 2010)

Something you might be interested in http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/scenery/261-making-flats.html. It is ashame that it hasn't made it to the wiki yet, though probably no one wants to edit it. I my self haven't read the whole thing.


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## kicknargel (Jan 17, 2010)

You might frame with 1x3 to save storage space. Also, a lot of TV people frame flats with plywood because it won't warp over time.

And just to show there's as many ways to do things as there are TDs, I've always put 2 toggles in a 4x8 flat (around 2' 9" OC).


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## last125eagle (Jan 18, 2010)

any plywood on any flat I have seen has failed spectacularly. Granted it was cdx 3/4 pine ply. I have had no luck with it. Any clue to what they do differently with it.

1x3 i have found is not rigid enough. 1x4 makes a much heftier flat. Its like those who use 5 quarter for platforms instead of 1x6.


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## kicknargel (Jan 18, 2010)

Granted, for TV it's critical that flats are REALLY flat (due to the camera's increased perception of any shadows cause by any warp in the flat), so we'll usually frame with plywood, use toggles at 2' OC and often put framing in between the toggles so the largest open field is 2'x2'. I don't know if it's all strictly necessary, but is pretty standard. In this case flatness is more important than durability.

Yes joints in a plywood frame aren't as strong as in pine, but if glued and stapled well, I haven't had problems. And I have had problems with pine flats curling up over time. It may be partly the extreme dryness here in Colorado.


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## Van (Jan 18, 2010)

I Hate framing in plywood. Period. 
For general flats I prefer to rip 1x6 in twain. Set your saw 2.5 inches and you get two pieces out of 1 1x6. The biggest issue is finding good lumber to rip from as a lot tends to wrap like crazy once you rip it.
I only use 1/4 Luan, 1/8 tends to buckle too much. 

I prefere to set my toggles 24" O.C. as here in the Great NW our humidity tends to play hell with Luan. 

I do prefer the use of Narrow Crown staples for attaching the luan to the face of the flat as it's easier to fill the divots, but prefer a wide crown 1 1/2" minimum for the framing. Personally I think any kind of joinery on the corners defeats the purpose of building flats - quick easy walls. As Footer said, a good stock flat is only going to last you 4 or so shows.


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## RockMoniker (Jan 18, 2010)

I'll throw in that when I used to build flats for tv, we always used poplar for the frame. Much nicer than pine, rips nice and straight. Generally, we'd rip 1x4 into two 1 3/4" pieces, face with 1/4" luan, flex glue and muslin the face, backpaint, all with 2' OC frame. Works great, but as others have said, it still will only last you a few shows. I do badically the same to make a lot of hard masking panels with duv on the face.
Also, I've found that you can use a pneumatic wide crown tacker(upholstery style) with 1/2", or 9/16" staples, and you get much smaller divots. Remember, the staples just hold it til the glue dries.


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## last125eagle (Jan 19, 2010)

man i wish i had a 1/2 crown stapler now.

Yeah I have had great luck with hard flats than covered in muslin. I makes it a lot heavier but I had them last for 12 shows. Granted the muslin was 1/8 deepbcovered in home depot icky paint by the end.


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## DuckJordan (Jan 19, 2010)

In our theater we end up using 1x4 framing with a muslin soft face, a toggle setup in the middle of a 4x8 flat. as far as lasting we use pine and after 20 years of 5 shows a year, we still have 90% of the flats that were originally built.

Either you guys must be hard on your flats or were just good at building them.


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## n1ghtmar3 (Jan 19, 2010)

A few years ago we build about 20 stock flats out of 1x2 aluminum with holes drilled 1' from the ends and 2' oc they have worked really well for us. We build 10 - 6' x 16' 6 - 5' x 16' amd 4 - 4' x 16'. We did not use any adhesives on the luaun just tek screws. Over the yrs we have had to replace a few sheets of luaun which is an easy process with this setup. 

Most of the flats we build are custom built to fit a particular show for those we've been using 1x3 finger jointed polonia. Its been a great material for us. Nice and straight, light weight and easy to square up. OTher nice thing is it comes primed and no knots in the wood. We used to get 1x12 and rip it down to 1x3 but the finger jointed works out to be like 5 dollars more for and equivalant amount of wood. It also routes really nice to make moldings. Since we've started useing the finger jointed boards we have not had a single issue with warped boards or cracking from knots in the board. I have also used the finger jointed 5/4 whch was really nice a bit pricier but if you can afford it its great stuff to work with.


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## Footer (Jan 19, 2010)

DuckJordan said:


> In our theater we end up using 1x4 framing with a muslin soft face, a toggle setup in the middle of a 4x8 flat. as far as lasting we use pine and after 20 years of 5 shows a year, we still have 90% of the flats that were originally built.
> 
> Either you guys must be hard on your flats or were just good at building them.


Its not the flats fall apart, its what happens to the corners and sides and the paint build up. After taping/caulking/whatever my goal is to always have a seamless wall. After a flat has been used 4 or 5 times, getting the wall seamless is nearly impossible. Therefore, starting fresh is the thing to do.


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## Van (Jan 19, 2010)

DuckJordan said:


> In our theater we end up using 1x4 framing with a muslin soft face, a toggle setup in the middle of a 4x8 flat. as far as lasting we use pine and after 20 years of 5 shows a year, we still have 90% of the flats that were originally built.
> 
> Either you guys must be hard on your flats or were just good at building them.


 in a Black box set up like we have in both our theaters, where some of your patrons are as close as 4 feet from scenery and the furthest they are is maybe 20', our flats tend to have to be perfect. We also don't get away with paint treatments fo textures, If it's a stucco wall, it's a stucco wall. Those factors really tend to limit a flats usable life.


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