# Theatre Consultants



## TVinNYC (Dec 2, 2009)

Has anyone ever hired a Theatre Consultant to help build your facility? If so, what do their prices range and how much lead-in time do they need before building begins? Any general advice on them?


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## gafftaper (Dec 3, 2009)

We built a black box theater two years ago. This was a state community college campus construction project so I don't know anything about costs. He just appeared. I do know that before he showed up the designs we were getting from the architects were TERRIBLE. They new how to design classrooms but not theaters. The consultant showed up and suddenly the building became a theater. The difference was night and day. He wasn't perfect, I had to stay constantly involved to express my opinion, and there are some weird things about the space that he thought were wonderful. But in the end we have a very nice space. Don't think twice. Hire a consultant. The price of a consultant is substantially less than the price of remodeling the building because the architect didn't know what he was doing.


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## Sayen (Dec 3, 2009)

I would echo Gafftaper's advice about staying involved. I think a consultant is a necessary component, but realize that anyone can call themselves a consultant. Ask about previous projects they've worked on, and do some follow up with the owners of those buildings to see how happy they are with the consultant's work. The consultant we had was full of strange ideas, including the use of ETC PARs for worklights, and lecturing me that scoops are outdated fixtures that no one uses anymore.


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## SHARYNF (Dec 3, 2009)

To give you an idea on cost, on a 17 million dollar facility with a 2 million dollar theater equipment budget and a million dollar total design budget, the theater design part was 300K out of the million dollar design. It was a well spend investment, the whole interchange of architectural design, structural engineering, general contractor constant value engineering, and the need to have an outsider review progress was a great help even when we had an inside TD

It is IMO the old pay me now pay me later, there are just a mind field of issues that come up all thru the process and having someone who not only knows what they are doing but has the experience to have seen all the tricks that are played really is important. It is great experience for the TD but typically in the pecking order of who gets listened to With school boards and administration, when they are paying some real dollars it makes a huge difference. The problem with just having the TD do it is that they are typically an employee, they typically are pretty far down the org chart, and they have to typically work in the former current and future political environment.

Sharyn


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## DaRose46 (Dec 3, 2009)

I am a theatre consultant and I'm so glad that the other members believe in our work. Yes, get a consultant, and YES check references. You could look at the website of the American Society of Theatre Consultants which is the professional society for those of us in the biz. Anyone can call themselves a consultant but not "anyone" can join the ASTC. 

the costs range pretty wildly; some large firms have large overhead, experience with really huge projects and fees to match. Some smaller firms may be able to provide more personal attention and smaller fees and excellent work too; depends on what you want. Good luck


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## spiwak2005 (Dec 3, 2009)

I worked at a public school facility in upstate NY that was completely gutted and rebuilt (completed in 2004). Our local architectural firm insisted that they also hire a theatre consultant for that portion of the project. Scott Crossfield (from NYC) was the consultant. No idea his price tag, but the whole theatre project (architects, equipment, installation and construction) ended up less than 10 million for a 900 seat venue. Acoustically amazing!


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## TVinNYC (Feb 7, 2010)

Wow - this was SOOO helpful - thank you for all your responses! I thought I would get an email when somebody responded like Facebook so I thought no one responded. But I'm researching consultants now and getting quotes so thank you again for all the feedback! It has helped me with estimate a budget for my project.


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## Chris15 (Feb 7, 2010)

TVinNYC said:


> I thought I would get an email when somebody responded like Facebook so I thought no one responded.



User CP link up under the banner, edit options and then Messaging and Notification, then default subscription mode and select your preferred option...


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## Sony (Feb 7, 2010)

We are building two new theatres at the new high school I am working at right now and we are definitely using a Theatre Consultant. It's pretty much a must if you're building a new space. We are using Kyle Smith from Theatre Consultants Collaborative (Theatre Consultants Collaborative, LLC) and he is a member of the American Society of Theatre Consultants. He is a wonderfull guy and knows his stuff and has definitely caught some serious problems in the design phase before they became major ones. In turn we are getting two truly wonderfull spaces which we will be able to use to their fullest potential. Also as well as a Theatre Consultant you should also consider hiring an Acoustical Engineer in order to help design a space that will not become an acoustical nightmare, the theatre consultant can usually help you with that.


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## MNicolai (Feb 7, 2010)

Get the consultant involved from Day 1. They should be on the project as soon as an architect is, maybe even sooner. I have a favorite rigging contractor nearby who doubles as a general theatre consultant. He gets on the same page with the architect, who may or may not have experience building theatres, and works with them through the entire design and build process. He helps advise everything from fire protection systems to HVAC to the entire layout of the building. It's not that he claims to be an expert in these areas, because he isn't, and he doesn't, but he knows them well enough to help an architect navigate them through the process. If an architect lets a contractor go crazy and put sprinker pipes everywhere or HVAC ducts in the middle of where a catwalk should be or the rigging needs to go, it can be a costly redesign. If it's not a redesign, then the owners are stuck with a facility with inherent problems.

You want someone you can trust, and you want them on the project from the beginning. They should be willing to do a lot more footwork than you ever expect them to. I don't know you'll be able to easily find another gem like we've had the pleasure of working with, but it's something to aim for.


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## SHARYNF (Feb 7, 2010)

In the process there is a phase called the "program Phase" where the needs of the different groups are worked out and articulated is in put for the design. We found that using the Theater Consultant at this phase was very very important.

How good a job the consultant does at this part of the design process can be the key to how well the facility will meet the needs of the users

They speak not only your language but also the various other specialists that you will need to get involved along the way

Sharyn


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## museav (Feb 7, 2010)

First, get your theatre consultant(s) involved as soon as possible, preferably at the same time as the Architect, if not before.

As far as fees, that can range significantly depending upon the project specifics and the scope of services to be provided.

Also, consider that you can either try to find a firm that addresses all aspects in one shop or you can use multiple specialists in different areas, there are potential advantages and disadvantages to both approaches. It is quite common to have two or three specialty consultants on a project and that is how I work, focusing on audio and acoustics while working with others addressing rigging, lighting and general planning. TCC was initially a group of individuals with different specialties that would team together as needed for projects, eventually they made that relationship more formal. In my case what was once a team within a larger firm has all left and formed small firms that can team together or work alone as best fits a project. 

I'd also like to address another aspect. The theatre Consultant(s) typically work either directly for the Owner or through the Architect. Again, there are advantages and disadvantages to each approach. Working through the Architect means they are responsible for coordinating all their design team members and their work and you have just one point of contractual relation. In theory, this means less effort on the Owner's part and less coordination issues. Perhaps the biggest potential negative in my experience is that it also means the Consultant is working for the Architect rather than the Owner, which means that both input and responses may all filter through the Architect. If a conflict between the theatrical and architectural or other building aspects arises it may well be the Architect rather than you deciding on the resolution. I have had extremely successful projects working through Architects but I have also had projects that became wonderful works of architecture and interior design at the expense of the theatrical and operational aspects due to an Architect making decisions on the basis of their priorities rather than the Client's. Which approach is better depends very much on the firms involved and their relationships with you and with each other. I am working on a project right now that one of the first things the Architect did once I was hired was to arrange a meeting between me and the Owner so that we could start that communications path. That bodes well for the project in comparison to projects where everything had to go through the Architect and I never directly met or spoke with the Owner or end users until the building was already in construction.

To add to Sharyn's comment, I often find that one of the biggest advantages of having a consultant can be as the liaison between the technical users and the design and construction team. Many Owners and end users have a good idea of what they want but getting that translated and properly integrated into the design and construction process and langauage is often outside their experience and expertise.


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## MPowers (Feb 7, 2010)

Fees vary widely depending on the size of the firm and the size of the project. there is no way to predict a $$ figure. However any member of the American Society of Theatre Consultants (ASTC) will give you services well worth the cost. One point, make sure you hire the consultant, not the architect. In a large New England facility built in 1983, I was called in to consult, after the fact, concrete had been poured, roof was up, and the 3 of the first 5 events booked into the space cancelled after they received the stage floor plan. Long story short, World renouned cousultant, local architect, University didn't understand the relationship and when told they needed a consultant for a performing arts facility, told the architect, "you take care of this, hire someone." The problem was the university asked for a concert hall. The architect had the consultant help him to build a rather nice concert hall. The problem was that what the university wanted and needed was a musical theatre road house. There was no loading dock, only 6 line sets, 2 electrics, no fly house above the stage, and the list goes on. BUT....The Acoustics were WOUNDERFUL!!!! The consultant served his client, the architect, not the end user, the university. You might say any good consultant wuld have investigated the needs of the end user better, but I said World renouned, that means well known and famous, not necessarily "smart". The guy had an ego problem and while he was a brilliant inovater and very tallented, he was often short on execution. 

Anyway, GET A CONSULTANT, hire him yourself and now is not too soon.

Michael Powers, Project Manager, ETCP Certified Rigger - Theatre
Central Lighting & Equipment, Inc.-


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## museav (Feb 7, 2010)

MPowers said:


> The problem was the university asked for a concert hall. The architect had the consultant help him to build a rather nice concert hall. The problem was that what the university wanted and needed was a musical theatre road house. There was no loading dock, only 6 line sets, 2 electrics, no fly house above the stage, and the list goes on. BUT....The Acoustics were WOUNDERFUL!!!! The consultant served his client, the architect, not the end user, the university


Did you perhaps mean that the Architect directed the Consultant to design a Concert Hall when the Owner actually wanted something else? As presented it sounds like the Consultant designed exactly what the Owner (the University) directed them to design, if the Owner gave them erroneous information or sidestepped the Programming/Needs Analysis process then that is not the Consultant's fault.

I ran into a situation where the Owner (a school district that provided the initial design input) wanted one thing while the End User (the TD hired for the facility after it was already designed) was envisioning something quite different. That project was a great example of where it was critical to assess who was actually the party to make any decisions and provide input. It was also a good example of where depending on who you call you might get a very different responses regarding the design and results, there was simply no way to make both sides happy.


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## SHARYNF (Feb 8, 2010)

Further to Brad's comments, this is why getting the consultant involved in the discussion is important, BECAUSE of the language, many times the guys with the money don't understand the subtle but very important language differences in what they are asking for, and the design ramifications. Folks that don't do this stuff all the time don't have a clue that when they say we need a performance space to do X what this really means. A good consultant during the program phase will meet with the various user groups to really understand the needs, and then typically will have joint sessions where the various trade offs are made to come to some common agreement. This eliminates to some degree the likely hood that later in the design process or even building process someone does not come back with " I thought it was going to have...."

it can take real skill to make all this work well

I have seen cases where for instance the small drama group says "we don't want 1000 seats, only 2-300 people come to our productions" and the schools says we need 1000 seats for assembly and graduation, etc etc

Sharyn


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## MNicolai (Feb 8, 2010)

On our install, we almost ended up with a loading bridge we couldn't store weight on. The difference on the install side was purely that on the drawings it was generally labeled a Catwalk, which is rated only for foot traffic, and had it been listed as a Loading Bridge, it would've been rated for all of our counterweights.

It took three months of phone tag with the general contractor, architect, and structural engineer to get the problem sorted out and come up with the actual rating of it. We lucked out -- we can store weight up there, just not all in the same spot .We weren't far from not being able to put anything up there though because of a simple miscommunication in how that item was labeled on the drawings.


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## MPowers (Feb 8, 2010)

Brad, 
The problem was multi fold. plenty blame to go all around. The end user, the University, asked for a concert hall because they thought that was the proper name for the facility in which they wanted to produce booked in musicals, dance ballet etc. The architect and consultant didn't follow up and ask how the faacility was going to be used. The university didn't ask questions when the early designs came out, like "where are the dressing rooms?" When the theatre department TD asked, rather early in the design phase I understand, if maybe a loading dock might be nice, the Consultant fired up his ego and from what I hear publicly embarrased the TD, so the theatre dept, just stepped back and watched the disaster happen. 

Michael Powers, Project Manager, ETCP Certified Rigger - Theatre
Central Lighting & Equipment Inc., Des Moines, Iowa, Central Lighting & Equipment


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## museav (Feb 8, 2010)

Getting everyone on the same page right from the start is definitely critical. So is initially focusing on the 'bigger picture' aspects before delving into details. I have been working on a new county performing arts venue project that when I asked for input all I received was a list of some product manufacturers and a few specific models, they were unable to provide much input at all into the envisioned use or what they really wanted the venue to be or do, they just knew that they wanted a performing arts center and that someone there wanted some specific equipment in it (which it turned out was input from a dealer friend of someone and was equipment that they just happened to sell). With no coherent vision or direction as to what they need or want, it is not surprising that this project has had no real progress in over a year.

It just cannot be stressed how important it is that everyone involved understand the vision for the venue and be working toward the same goals.


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