# Ran across something today



## Esoteric (Sep 17, 2013)

Hey guys, so I ran across something today that I know isn't the proper way to do things, but I was wondering if you guys think I handled the situation correctly.

I was working in a church, and their horizontal lighting pipes (1.5" iron pipe) were held in place to vertical pipes (which were secured by flanges to the ceiling) with cheeseboroughs. I pointed it out to the owner, took pictures, told him how dangerous it was, but he refused to pay for replacement of the system.

We didn't touch anything on or near the pipe, should I have gone to the additional expense on my own dime (it was in a very difficult place to reach and would have cost me a day's labor for 3 people plus the parts to fix it) to fix it? My lawyer says there is no liability for me. But how would you guys have handled it?

If it had been in the way, and easy to reach I would have just done it anyway, but we are talking probably $1000-$1500 out of a job with an already low profit margin (as in it would have turned it into a profit margin of less than 3%) so I didn't touch it. But now, a week on, I kind of feel guilty for not doing anything about it despite the client not wanting anything done.

Mike


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## DuckJordan (Sep 17, 2013)

The only thing you can do is report it. Although not sure as to who.


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## MPowers (Sep 17, 2013)

Any chance you've got some pictures?


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## FMEng (Sep 18, 2013)

The person you were working with was not the "owner," more likely a volunteer or employee. It's possible that he was the person responsible for the installation, which might be why he got defensive. The church typically would have an elected governing body that oversees everything. They may be known as the church council, board of deacons, elders, or some such. 

I suggest sending a note to the council president, and copied to the lead Pastor. Explain the hazard and that if they aren't sure of your motives, any licensed structural engineer could confirm your concerns. The contact names and titles are usually posted on their website.


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## gafftaper (Sep 19, 2013)

FMEng said:


> The person you were working with was not the "owner," more likely a volunteer or employee. It's possible that he was the person responsible for the installation, which might be why he got defensive. The church typically would have an elected governing body that oversees everything. They may be known as the church council, board of deacons, elders, or some such.
> 
> I suggest sending a note to the council president, and copied to the lead Pastor. Explain the hazard and that if they aren't sure of your motives, any licensed structural engineer could confirm your concerns. The contact names and titles are usually posted on their website.



I agree completely. Write a teaching letter explaining how dangerous the situation is with pictures you took. The trick is to convince them it's dangerous without sounding like you are just trying to make a fast buck. I suggest you make the overall tone of the letter very much like a teacher and conclude your letter by suggesting to them the name of other people in the area they can contact for a second opinion or who can even do the job. Tell them you don't care about getting the job, you are just worried about their safety. 

You could also post the pictures here for us to comment and explain why the situation is dangerous and what should be done and then send the link to this thread in your letter.


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## Esoteric (Sep 19, 2013)

Thanks guys. I might post the pictures later. The main thing I was worried about was the cheeseboroughs slipping off the pipe over time (who knows how long they have been up there).

He was indeed the "owner". He is the lead Pastor, Worship Leader, and even the actual owner of the building. He doesn't have a Board of Deacons, a Board of Directors, or even an Associate Pastor. Thanks though, I will try telling him to contact other companies in the area.


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## Footer (Sep 19, 2013)

Esoteric said:


> Thanks guys. I might post the pictures later. The main thing I was worried about was the cheeseboroughs slipping off the pipe over time (who knows how long they have been up there).
> 
> He was indeed the "owner". He is the lead Pastor, Worship Leader, and even the actual owner of the building. He doesn't have a Board of Deacons, a Board of Directors, or even an Associate Pastor. Thanks though, I will try telling him to contact other companies in the area.



That can be solved by a simple cap. The real issue is the use of flanges. Those things are not the best anchor points... especially when they are lagged in like they commonly are. They are meant for holding two pipes together, not hold something over head. Most are cast and under a twisting motion can easily crack and break. That is your real issue.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Sep 19, 2013)

Footer said:


> That can be solved by a simple cap. The real issue is the use of flanges. Those things are not the best anchor points... especially when they are lagged in like they commonly are. They are meant for holding two pipes together, not hold something over head. Most are cast and under a twisting motion can easily crack and break. That is your real issue.



Yeah - that was my immediate thought - flanges? Lagged into a wood deck? Seems like the bigger problem. One of the reasons I liked rota-locks instead of cheesboroughs is that they are rated. But if you had a real concern, just clamping a c-clamp above the cheesborough would likely save it - though not the recommended fix by any means.


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## Esoteric (Sep 20, 2013)

Okay, so the pics I took on my phone seem to have gotten deleted in the update.

I was thinking about putting a pipe cap on them, but by the time we saw it it was too late to get the pipe caps to put on. Didn't think about the C-Clamps. And now it would cost $1000 or more (scaffolding rental) to go back and fix it.

Honestly the flanges were bolted through the wood 4x4's with grade 8 bolts and nuts (with washers, I think the weakest point of the whole system) so I wasn't worried about them. Never knew that about flanges. We mostly use them on the floor, but we hang projectors by them all the time.

Mike


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## gafftaper (Sep 21, 2013)

Mike did you post pictures here and they were deleted?


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## techieman33 (Sep 21, 2013)

gafftaper said:


> Mike did you post pictures here and they were deleted?



He may have lost them in updating to iOS 7 that was just released a couple of days ago.


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## Esoteric (Sep 24, 2013)

Yup, lost them to the iOS7 update. I had taken them on wife's iPhone instead of my Android phone. Lesson learned.

Mike


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