# Fire hose connections and hoses on stage



## BillConnerFASTC (May 21, 2015)

It's my every several years appeal for input and comments on requiring fire hoses on stages. It's occasioned by the Assembly Occupancy Committee for the Life Safety Code forming a task group on Stages and Fire Protection Systems. The scope was originally focused around the relative temperatures - fusible link ratings or heat detectors or other - for the automatic operation of the of the fire sprinklers, vents, and fire safety curtain (or deluge). 
However hose cabinet requirements are once again an issue. In the past, the SML community and like minded theatre people have expressed strong support for retaining hose cabinets with hoses on stages. While once more commonly required in other occupancies, stages are about the only place left where they are still required by code. While some may disagree, these are and have always been for occupant use, not fire service use. Just as most people here would not rely upon a never used or maintained sound system, the fire service is equally unlikely to rely on a hose in a cabinet on stage.

Over my 25 years of being actively involved in the development of the national model building and fire codes, I have tended to speak in favor of keeping the requirement, and the representatives of the fire service have generally supported deleting the requirement. Simply, I believe technicians want them and would use them; the fire service thinks occupants should egress and leave fire fighting to the fire service.

So some questions came up from the task group.
1. If you work on a stage or stages with these fire hoses, have you had training in using them?
2. Have you ever used or seen these used in a fire, or heard a reliable report of their use?
3. Do you favor retaining the requirement?

Kind of a bonus question but increasingly I hear reports of local authorities over riding the requirement and not allowing the installation of these or requiring at least the elimination or removal of the actual hose, and only keeping the connection. Have you been made aware of this on the stages where you work? 

Thanks in advance for your constructive responses.
-- 
Bill Conner Fellow of the ASTC


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## SteveB (May 21, 2015)

1) No
2) No
3) Don't have them on our stage.

This is a City of NY venue that has seen numerous fire system and life safety upgrades of various types over the years and none of these has seen hoses installed in our backstage area. I "think" there might be hoses in the audience chamber, but not sure and possibly they've become just part of the background. I do know there were hoses in the audience chamber of our adjacent smaller proscenium theater (who's audience chamber has since been torn down) as I recovered the hose that was in an exit alcove. This smaller theater was built at the same time as our larger road house and did have a single hose unit on a down right wall backstage. But none in the larger road house.


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## DuckJordan (May 21, 2015)

1. Nope
2. Nope
3. Nope

We are a Road house, Not once have these been used. I don't think they actually get inspected either. Our fire marshal doesn't even check them. If it requires more than a fire extinguisher its a no go on our insurance and our policies. First and for most is evacuation. we have one on each side of the stage and again never used them. To be honest I think they are more of a liability that an help. The chances for a trained person, to get to the hose. Turn it on and use it appropriately in the case of a fire is almost nill generally due to the fact that priority is evacuation.

To be honest it would take two people to effectively use ours, hose is a 4" with a valve. Again if it takes more than a fire extinguisher to contain then there is no reason you should stick around.


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## techieman33 (May 21, 2015)

1- no
2- no
3- no

We don't actually have any on the stage. We have 12 in the public spaces, one near each corner of the building on each floor. The only thing the cabinets gets used for is a place to hold a fire extinguisher. It doesn't help that the lines are dry, the only time they would get used is if the fire department plugged into the standpipes on the exterior of the building. And I highly doubt that they would trust the 25 year old hoses.


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## Footer (May 21, 2015)

I have them on each side of stage. Hoses are still there. They have not been inspected in a year. Hoses get replaced every so often. There is an extinguisher in each cabinet as well. 

1. No, only trained on extinguishers. 
2. No
3. Get rid of them. They take up too much wall space and I'm not going to fight a fire at that level. 

In the event of a fire, I'm clearing the act and bringing in the fire wall. Beyond that, I don't care what happens. If the fire is small I'll grab an extinguisher and give it a run. Odds are though I'm still going to drop the wall and clear the act. My theatre is 6 stories up... I'm hitting the stairs as soon as possible.


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## TheaterEd (May 21, 2015)

1.No
2.No
3. No

We have them in my current space but did not have them in the last two auditoriums that I ran. 

We received no training on them, so I might give it a shot if the fire was out of range of an extinguisher. I am on a ground floor and am a pretty fit individual, but once smoke even started to become an issue, I'm out. 

I would much rather have the wall space.

Last school district I worked for had a brand new venue that opened in 2010 and a 20-30 year old space. Neither had hoses. Current location opened in 2012 and has hoses... I'd rather not have them.


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## MNicolai (May 21, 2015)

1) Sort of. At owner-turnover, we were paraded past them and explained briefly about them. No hands-on, and I seem to recall being told, "Most fire marshals will tell you if you have a fire on stage large enough that you need the hose, drop the fire curtain and leave."
2) No.
3) In most cases, no.

OSHA just held Stand Down for Safety which lasted May 4-15. That means we just had Safety Week at a few of our different job sites. In our fire extinguisher training sessions on various sites, there was always a question to the effect of:

"What do you use a fire extinguisher for?"
A) Limiting property damage.
B) Making an egress route.
C) Buying time before firefighters arrive.
D) All of the above.

The answer is always emphasized as "B" and only "B". If it's a small enough fire, sure, go ahead and grab the extinguisher, but your number one priority in using a fire extinguisher is making a route of egress for yourself. Insurance will cover any property damage. _Things_ and _stuff_ can be replaced, and a single fire extinguisher is woefully inadequate at putting anything larger than a small fire out. In this case a hose can do more, but my estimation is that by the time someone thinks to get the hose out, the fire's even too big for those hoses to be sufficiently useful.

In special circumstances I think I'd also accept "C", but only where buying time serves to limit the loss of life before the firefighters can get the fire under control. This is more critical in rooms that aren't sprinklered or that don't have fire curtains. Modern theaters with sprinklers and fire curtains shouldn't need anyone to try and be a hero. Drop the curtain to give the audience time to egress and get yourself out.

I think the same applies to fire hoses. Every firefighter I've spoken to says they'll always bring in their own hoses. Most of them wouldn't even think to look for hoses on-stage. Now if you're somewhere where firefighters are a long ways away or there's a high probability they won't be able to get their fire trucks close enough to the building, then I could see a good case for keeping hoses, or at least places inside to connect hoses that are fed by the building's water system.

Another issue at play, especially in counterweight houses, is that ropes are very flammable. When I guided a tour of firefighters through a local theater, they asked if there was anything to lock the rigging in place if a fire broke out near the ropes and started causing the ropes to catch fire. I told them no, and they quickly concluded that in a fire, people should get off of the stage as quickly as possible before the sky starts falling. Nobody should try and be a hero and go running for the hose that's located on the upstage wall under a number of counterweight battens that could drop at any moment (and in the case of one nearby theater, happens to be located well behind their cyc so no one can find it in an emergency).


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## StradivariusBone (May 21, 2015)

1. No, but the cabinets exist and the hose were removed before I started working there, presumably by our safety to life guys. They now contain fire extinguishers. I've not had any formal training on any fire safety equipment from my employer, though I have personal experience. 
2. No.
3. I think it'd be interesting to see the data on actual use in a fire, but with a dad who worked several years as a volunteer firefighter I can relate that the general public tends to underestimate the difficulty in extinguishing an active and growing fire by a wide margin. The hero complex could kick in and while you're trying to save the day your egress could be comprised and in theory you'll not be doing anything useful to help your audience egress more efficiently anyway as long as the fire curtain deploys. My rule with my students is the alarm goes off turn on houselights, if it's feasible leave a mic unmuted on stage and you get out and stay out. No sense in getting injured or killed to save a building. 

An interesting sidenote though- I have come within seconds of actually using one of these hoses before. In my freshmen year of college our dorm had two of these per floor on either side of the elevators. So we get the idea of having a water fight and pulled the hoses out of the cabinets, were facing each other in front of the elevators about to open the valves when our head custodian just happened to pop out of an elevator at the right moment and started screaming expletives at us. We, being the college idiots we were, had no idea that this would also set off the alarm not to mention the insane amount of water that would have been dumped throughout the hall.


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## tjrobb (May 21, 2015)

We had them, were removed in the 2010 renovation.
I would much rather have the wing space. Between putting yourself in danger, rigging failures, and copious amounts of electricity onstage I can't justify an occupant using the hose.
On the other hand, I think having a 2-1/2" connection either side is useful... on the other side of the wall. When an attack is made the fire crew wants a charged line in hand. Putting a connection on stage means they could roast marshmallows as they're connecting. (Same concept as why hose connections are in stair towers).


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## josh88 (May 22, 2015)

No, no and no.

I've got one on each side of my stage. Like theatreEd if it came to something larger than an extinguisher I might give it a shot, but only my stage right hose because it's 2 steps from an exterior door that I could be out in the same time it would take to drop it. 

I don't have a ton of wing space and could use the extra little bit of room. Our hoses are at least 10 years old, and I think the fire marshal only ever looks at our extinguishers.


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## Robert (May 22, 2015)

1. Yes, both hose and extinguisher. Trained on the extinguisher on an open vat of burning oil. It's not easy!
2. Used extinguishers twice in two different non-theatrical situations, know of one alleged use of an extinguisher in a theater catwalk where a light dropped focus and started the soffet smoldering.
3. Since I know how to use it I support their continued presence, but we all know what happens to life safety gear in the hands of an untrained person. 

My general feeling on fire hoses is the same that I have for everything else in theater, leave tasks that require a trained professional to a trained professional. 
I fear that those who said they would try to use a fire extinguisher on an active fire but not a hose are actually kidding themselves if they think it is inherently safer to put out a fire with an extinguisher than a hose (see #1). It might be best for all untrained to just leave the building.
I now have an obligation to make sure my area is evacuated and then report that to security, so it may not be feasible to try and contain the fire as I am required to be elsewhere.


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## DuckJordan (May 22, 2015)

Robert said:


> 1. Yes, both hose and extinguisher. Trained on the extinguisher on an open vat of burning oil. It's not easy!
> 2. Used extinguishers twice in two different non-theatrical situations, know of one alleged use of an extinguisher in a theater catwalk where a light dropped focus and started the soffet smoldering.
> 3. Since I know how to use it I support their continued presence, but we all know what happens to life safety gear in the hands of an untrained person.
> 
> ...



I've been trained on an extinguisher, I have not been trained on the fire hose. If its larger than what an extinguisher can handle then its straight evac.

Sent from my XT1060 using Tapatalk


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## robartsd (May 22, 2015)

DuckJordan said:


> If it requires more than a fire extinguisher its a no go on our insurance and our policies.




tjrobb said:


> Between putting yourself in danger, rigging failures, and copious amounts of electricity onstage I can't justify an occupant using the hose.


I think that money and space would be better served with more extinguishers instead of hoses. Extingishers are easier to train with and are capable of fighting fires that might be appropriate for occupants to engage in. Haveing extinguishers in more locations would mean that there is greater chance of one being close enough at hand to use before the fire becomes big enough to require the fire service to control it. The only time I could see a hose being effectively used is if trained firefighters are on stage for fire watch.


StradivariusBone said:


> My rule with my students is the alarm goes off turn on houselights, if it's feasible leave a mic unmuted on stage and you get out and stay out. No sense in getting injured or killed to save a building.


While turning on houselights is obvious, I had never thought about the benefit of an open mic (of course, I've never been a sound guy). Reviewing policy and proceedure, and running drills with run crew has tremendous potential for increasing safety should an emergency come up during a show.


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## StradivariusBone (May 22, 2015)

robartsd said:


> While turning on houselights is obvious, I had never thought about the benefit of an open mic (of course, I've never been a sound guy). Reviewing policy and proceedure, and running drills with run crew has tremendous potential for increasing safety should an emergency come up during a show.



Our system does not have a recording that plays with the siren (which is code now, I think?) so when we practice our emergency drills we usually try and leave whatever mic is on stage open so that I or other staff could direct audience members to the exits. In reality the alarm is so stinking loud I doubt it would be audible, but I've seen how people react to an alarm in a public place. Unless there's smoke or fire they'll usually sit and wait for someone to tell them it's not a real alarm.


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## sk8rsdad (May 22, 2015)

1. N/A
2. No
3. No

Even if we had a fire hose, I wouldn't want any of our staff (volunteers) mixing water with electricity or rigged soft goods. Both can be very dangerous situations.

We train that a fire extinguisher is a life safety device. It's primary purpose is to enable people to egress the building in the event of a fire. A secondary use is to put out small fires if doing so doesn't put a person in more danger.


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## venuetech (May 22, 2015)

no
no
no

I did have a arson related fire in a balcony lobby. they wadded up unused programs and started a fire in a wood display case. two sprinkler heads were tripped and suppressed the flames till firefighters responded.


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## Footer (May 22, 2015)

StradivariusBone said:


> Our system does not have a recording that plays with the siren (which is code now, I think?) so when we practice our emergency drills we usually try and leave whatever mic is on stage open so that I or other staff could direct audience members to the exits. In reality the alarm is so stinking loud I doubt it would be audible, but I've seen how people react to an alarm in a public place. Unless there's smoke or fire they'll usually sit and wait for someone to tell them it's not a real alarm.



We have a bull horn in both spaces for exactly this. Keep them onstage and test them monthly. If the alarm goes off my FOH guy mutes the PA at the processing, no matter if the show is on our desk or a road desk.


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## BillConnerFASTC (May 22, 2015)

Occupant notification in theaters is required to be either pre-recorded voice announcements or live voice announcements, and visual (strobe) notification. You have all again reminded me that because it was built that way and approved by authorities, it doesn't mean it met the requirements of the code then or now.

Practically up to several hundred, it probably doesn't matter too much, but when you are near or over a thousand, it's much better if there is a live person who is directing egress or other crowd action (like to a basement in a tornado) than a horn.


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## AlexDonkle (May 22, 2015)

StradivariusBone said:


> Our system does not have a recording that plays with the siren (which is code now, I think?) so when we practice our emergency drills we usually try and leave whatever mic is on stage open so that I or other staff could direct audience members to the exits. In reality the alarm is so stinking loud I doubt it would be audible, but I've seen how people react to an alarm in a public place. Unless there's smoke or fire they'll usually sit and wait for someone to tell them it's not a real alarm.



There's some disagreements between what is code and what is practical for egress in large venues. Many AV systems will have a contact-closure from the fire alarm system so they'll automatically mute during a fire. This is done to ensure that the alarm is audible, and louder than the ambient noise (e.g. loud music from the PA) by at least 15 dB (code required). In a large venue this can be dangerous as announcements from a person are helpful to reduce the chance of panic.

In large stadiums and arenas, the standard is for the PA announcer to make all emergency announcements themselves, although the fire marshall / police have their own booth nearby and have a locked override box that gives them a mic to override the PA announcer or can play a pre-recorded announcement as well.

The other fire alarm exception large venues commonly use is to have a staff member acknowledge a silent fire alarm triggered somewhere in the building, and to delay evacuating the building until the building staff / crew have confirmed the cause of the trigger. This was developed for Stadiums and approved by local fire marshalls, then made its way into code as well for any venue with sufficiently trained staff. While a fire is certainly dangerous, there are often false alarms, and evacuating people from any large venue can be very dangerous in itself.

On fire hose cabinets, I have not seen any in the venues I've been in. Only fire extinguishers.


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## danTt (May 23, 2015)

MNicolai said:


> Another issue at play, especially in counterweight houses, is that ropes are very flammable. When I guided a tour of firefighters through a local theater, they asked if there was anything to lock the rigging in place if a fire broke out near the ropes and started causing the ropes to catch fire. I told them no, and they quickly concluded that in a fire, people should get off of the stage as quickly as possible before the sky starts falling. Nobody should try and be a hero and go running for the hose that's located on the upstage wall under a number of counterweight battens that could drop at any moment (and in the case of one nearby theater, happens to be located well behind their cyc so no one can find it in an emergency).



I feel like this part is inaccurate. The system should be in weight to such a point where the ropes are no more than a means of moving heavy scenery. If you are relying on the rope lock to prevent an out of weight condition, you have a larger problem than a fire. That's not to say that over time fire wouldn't deform/destroy the wire rope that is actually suspending the scenery, but I think that would take longer than the ropes themselves burning. Not saying it is a good idea to be in the theater if a fire is happening, but the ropes disappearing shouldn't cause any sort of safety condition.


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## MNicolai (May 23, 2015)

danTt said:


> I feel like this part is inaccurate. The system should be in weight to such a point where the ropes are no more than a means of moving heavy scenery. If you are relying on the rope lock to prevent an out of weight condition, you have a larger problem than a fire. That's not to say that over time fire wouldn't deform/destroy the wire rope that is actually suspending the scenery, but I think that would take longer than the ropes themselves burning. Not saying it is a good idea to be in the theater if a fire is happening, but the ropes disappearing shouldn't cause any sort of safety condition.



Just add water, from a hose. sprinklers. or open heads for a deluge curtain. Battens with wet soft goods get real heavy, real fast.


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## danTt (May 23, 2015)

MNicolai said:


> Just add water, from a hose. sprinklers. or open heads for a deluge curtain. Battens with wet soft goods get real heavy, real fast.



Sure, and if hard scenery on the ground burns the batten gets very out of weight in the other direction and you have the same issue. Neither of these would be solved if the handlines didn't exist though... I wouldn't anticipate a handline holding a soaked curtain or a batten with rapidly burning scenery. I wasn't disagreeing with the idea of a flyhousae being a terribly dangerous place to be iin the event of a fire, I was more disagreeing with the idea that the big safety issue in this case would be that the handlines might catch on fire and burn. I think we can both agree that being anywhere near a burning stage is not a good life plan!


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## MNicolai (May 23, 2015)

danTt said:


> Sure, and if hard scenery on the ground burns the batten gets very out of weight in the other direction and you have the same issue. Neither of these would be solved if the handlines didn't exist though... I wouldn't anticipate a handline holding a soaked curtain or a batten with rapidly burning scenery. I wasn't disagreeing with the idea of a flyhousae being a terribly dangerous place to be iin the event of a fire, I was more disagreeing with the idea that the big safety issue in this case would be that the handlines might catch on fire and burn. I think we can both agree that being anywhere near a burning stage is not a good life plan!



Agreed. For all intents and purposes, the greatest hazard here isn't to stagehands or performers who haven't egressed in time. It's the hazard to the fire service coming in after and trying to clear the place and knock down the fire.


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## BillConnerFASTC (May 23, 2015)

One of the problems of the Iroquois as a model - 160+ sets all hung on manila rope soaked in kerosene to preserve it. Forget the acres of linen painted with oil based paints, I suspect just the lift lines were more fuel then on most stages today.

It takes quite a while for a fire to grow that large on stage. Clearly if you can't see the fire and see your way to containing it quickly, just get out.

Probably repeating myself here but the largest stage fire I was on stage for was a pretty well engulfed leg. Tech rehearsal and I grabbed a Matt knife where I'd been cutting gel and grabbed the tallescope (couldn't do this with a genie) and went up and cut thevtie lines. Two people on stage carried the bundle outdoors, where it burst into flame. New flameproofed memorable velour. One reason I don't rely on flameproofing at all.


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## RonaldBeal (May 26, 2015)

As a touring crew, If there are hose cabinets, they tend to have the hoses removed as often as not.

One interesting change the fire service has noticed is that the a modern fire outgasses much more toxic chemicals than a fire did 50 years ago. With glues, vinyls, plastic, and synthetic coatings now days, compared to cotton, wool, wood and nails of old, There are a lot "IDLH" (Immediate Danger to Life and Health) chemicals put into the air in a modern fire.
In the 2003 Station Nightclub fire, Hydrogen Cyanide and Carbon Monoxide was produced to deadly levels within an estimated 90 seconds of the start of the fire once the sound insulation ignited.
Once a small fire has transitioned from an incipient stage, where it can be put out with a fire extinguisher, to a growing stage, staying to fight it can be deadly without the proper PPE. Hose cabinets made sense when a fires byproducts didn't turn deadly so quickly, but I think the reason the fire service no longer supports them is the realization that someone without turnouts and SCBA is more likely to perish trying to suppress the fire than evacuating.
As a note: generally hose cabinets are considered "occupant use hoses" which is why a fire department won't use them... They have no idea how they are maintained, how they perform, ect... And these days training an occupant anything beyond an extinguisher and evacuate is a huge liability concern.

RB




BillConnerASTC said:


> It's my every several years appeal for input and comments on requiring fire hoses on stages. It's occasioned by the Assembly Occupancy Committee for the Life Safety Code forming a task group on Stages and Fire Protection Systems. The scope was originally focused around the relative temperatures - fusible link ratings or heat detectors or other - for the automatic operation of the of the fire sprinklers, vents, and fire safety curtain (or deluge).
> However hose cabinet requirements are once again an issue. In the past, the SML community and like minded theatre people have expressed strong support for retaining hose cabinets with hoses on stages. While once more commonly required in other occupancies, stages are about the only place left where they are still required by code. While some may disagree, these are and have always been for occupant use, not fire service use. Just as most people here would not rely upon a never used or maintained sound system, the fire service is equally unlikely to rely on a hose in a cabinet on stage.
> 
> Over my 25 years of being actively involved in the development of the national model building and fire codes, I have tended to speak in favor of keeping the requirement, and the representatives of the fire service have generally supported deleting the requirement. Simply, I believe technicians want them and would use them; the fire service thinks occupants should egress and leave fire fighting to the fire service.
> ...


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## lwinters630 (May 28, 2015)

No
No
No
We had them installed during our last remodel a few years ago. On our last inspection this spring by the AHJ and fire dept. The fire Department said they won't use them. 

As for training, my job will be to pull the alarm, clear the house , not fight fires.


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## RickR (Apr 2, 2018)

@BillConnerFASTC I generally hate to necro-post but would love to hear any news on this topic. 

As you might expect a fire hose cabinet showed up on a set of plans for a school theater. On top of all the usual fire issues as discussed, the school is in an area that is quite subject to wildfires, such as made big news the past several summers. So everyone is rather touchy on the subject. 

One issue that never came up in the previous discussions is the ubiquitous electricity on stage and it's incompatibility with water. Off the cuff, I'm thinking I would far rather have a chemical extinguisher that a water hose.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Apr 2, 2018)

Without re-reading all of every post, thus risking repeating, the NFPA Assembly Occupancies committee did indeed remove the requirement for hoses and hose cabinets on stages. It is however still in the International Building Code and therefore required on most new build stages in the US. One of a number of tasks on my code to do list.


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## RickR (Apr 2, 2018)

I'm open to helping in some way. Lighting/electrical is my forte but I'm happy to do some leg work for you.


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## TimMc (Apr 2, 2018)

RickR said:


> @BillConnerFASTC I generally hate to necro-post but would love to hear any news on this topic.
> 
> As you might expect a fire hose cabinet showed up on a set of plans for a school theater. On top of all the usual fire issues as discussed, the school is in an area that is quite subject to wildfires, such as made big news the past several summers. So everyone is rather touchy on the subject.
> 
> One issue that never came up in the previous discussions is the ubiquitous electricity on stage and it's incompatibility with water. Off the cuff, I'm thinking I would far rather have a chemical extinguisher that a water hose.



Clear, clean water is less conductive than you might think. Water with dissolved salts, higher mineral content and chemical contaminants (chlorides, carbonates, alkalis), tends to be more conductive. I think the posts about water soaking rigged soft goods are important as the rigging failure could happen very soon after the goods got wet. How much can an operating line lock hold? At 8.3 lbs/gal it doesn't take a whole lot of water to unbalance a line set.

While this zombie topic is walking... Our PAC removed the hoses at least 3 years ago although we still have extinguishers in the cabinets - but the answers to Bill's questions are no, no, and no... While the stagehands have not received specific training or instruction from the PAC, our Local's protocol is to fight a fire only to create or preserve egress or to extinguish a burning person. Pull alarm (reports to FD), trip fire curtain, get yourself & crew the heck out, notify PAC management.


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## Jay Ashworth (Apr 4, 2018)

At a house I won't identify in the Tampa Bay metro market, we have a hose cabinet with (I think) 2" line in it, I do not know if it has feed water, and we have not been trained on it -- that's pretty hard to do in any case.

At another HIWIINTBM, we do not have such a cabinet, just extinguishers -- but the booth extinguisher *is* CO2, somewhat to my surprise.


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## RickR (Apr 4, 2018)

@TimMc I wouldn't want to drink from a fire hose, literally or figuratively. Eventually the water would run clean I suppose, but dirt is everywhere. Rust depends on maintenance and testing practices and age.

My take away from the update is there won't be an IBC change for a couple of years, but there is hope. Perhaps the AHJ will be open to suggestions, but without a code update pending it's not likely.


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## TimMc (Apr 4, 2018)

RickR said:


> @TimMc I wouldn't want to drink from a fire hose, literally or figuratively. Eventually the water would run clean I suppose, but dirt is everywhere. Rust depends on maintenance and testing practices and age.
> 
> My take away from the update is there won't be an IBC change for a couple of years, but there is hope. Perhaps the AHJ will be open to suggestions, but without a code update pending it's not likely.



Yeah, knowing how other things _that really matter_ have their maintenance ignored there's no reason to think the fire hose system would see any better.

Either from weight or conductivity, water seems a bad idea in most circumstances.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Apr 4, 2018)

TimMc said:


> Yeah, knowing how other things _that really matter_ have their maintenance ignored there's no reason to think the fire hose system would see any better.



Check and see if there are tags on your fire extinguishers. Should be same service.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Apr 4, 2018)

I don't think I posted this link to an article previously: http://theatreconsultants.org/changes-to-life-safety-code-standpipes-on-stage/

You might find some other interesting articles in those ASTC newsletters by the way.

If I'm repeating myself, I'm old, so just forgive me. (I haven't started drooling yet!)


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## TimMc (Apr 4, 2018)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> Check and see if there are tags on your fire extinguishers. Should be same service.



The hoses have now been gone 4 or 5 years, I think. The municipal owners decided that venue staff and stage hands weren't fire fighters and I'm guessing it was a liability concern (mentioned in a post up-thread). There is still water pressure on the lines, according to the gauge on each pipe...


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## pbansen (Apr 4, 2018)

Great questions, Bill, and there have been some excellent comments in reply. I'm looking at this from the perspective of 36 years in the fire service, the last 24 of which were as fire chief/fire marshal. Now retired, I have a part-time fun job as a stagehand/technician.

I agree with the comment that the space dedicated to backstage hose racks would be better utilized for additional fire extinguishers. As you suggested, the fire department isn't going to use the pin rack hose or the water supply at that location - we're going to extend a line or lines from an uninvolved compartment. Fire extinguishers can be used to good effect to extinguish a small fire, but if a fire cannot be handled with a portable extinguisher or two, it's best to evacuate everyone quickly and allow the automatic fire sprinkler system to extinguish or at least limit the spread of the fire. Pre-determine a meeting location for the crew, cast and other staff and _verify that everyone is present_. The first-arriving fire officer can then be notified that everyone has been evacuated and accounted for, allowing the first-due company to devote their efforts to fire suppression rather than conducting a search to eliminate the higher-priority life safety concern prior to initiating fire attack.

At one time, backstage hose racks were probably a great idea, but they're now a distinct liability, in my opinion. They create the temptation for staff members - without adequate personal protective equipment or training - to attempt to fight a fire when they'd be better off evacuating to a safe location. Fire extinguishers, once they've been expended will have either controlled the fire or not. If the fire has not been extinguished, the staff's priority should be to evacuate to safety - they've done their best.

I suspect that most AHJ's - if asked - would instruct the architect for a new facility to omit hose racks or provide a fire extinguisher cabinet in their place. Unfortunately, that question seems to be asked only some of the time. By the same token, facility managers would do well to ask the fire inspector performing their annual inspection how they can best address fire and life safety issues backstage and if they can remove the hose from their racks.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Apr 5, 2018)

pbansen said:


> I suspect that most AHJ's - if asked - would instruct the architect for a new facility to omit hose racks or provide a fire extinguisher cabinet in their place. Unfortunately, that question seems to be asked only some of the time.



Not what I hear - and that's around 4 to 5 buildings a year. Most AHJs and Building Officials are very reticent to relax the requirements.

The fire extinguishers require training. I find most stages - community, high school, small college - do not have many employees regularily on site - maybe 1 or 2 - and many volunteers, ever changing. Very hard to rely on training.


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## RickR (Apr 5, 2018)

I find it hard to believe that fire hoses don't require training. Reading OSHA doc's makes one think pencils and screwdrivers require training.



BTW: That article is probably what prodded my mind to dig deeper into fire hoses. Nice work on it and the code change.


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## pbansen (Apr 5, 2018)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> Not what I hear - and that's around 4 to 5 buildings a year. Most AHJs and Building Officials are very reticent to relax the requirements.



That's too bad. I suspect it's because the folks doing the inspections and plan checks are not firefighters and don't understand that a firefighter/fire officer/fire chief would laugh out loud at the thought of taking on a working fire with a piece of 1 1/2" hose that's been in a pin rack cabinet for 10 or 20 years, backed with a totally unknown and probably inadequate water supply!


BillConnerFASTC said:


> The fire extinguishers require training. I find most stages - community, high school, small college - do not have many employees regularily on site - maybe 1 or 2 - and many volunteers, ever changing. Very hard to rely on training.



That's true, but at least some of those people may have had fire extinguisher training somewhere else and I'm sure you'd agree that 'live fire' fire extinguisher training can be provided with significantly greater ease and less impact than having people pull a pin rack hose and flow water. We encouraged facilities to offer live fire training to their employees using their fire extinguishers each year just prior to when said extinguishers were due to be recharged and inspected anyway (annually in California). Our fire department was only too happy to bring the needed props and provide the training and most fire departments would be willing to provide that same opportunity if asked.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Apr 5, 2018)

You state clearly the reasons for doing away with requirement, and basically what I presented in support of change - maybe - just maybe - with a slight more diplomacy. The immediate response to any change that lessens a requirement is that it seems to have worked well. Not easy.

Re training - good idea to do it before recharging. 

You know, anyone can submit a code change proposal. Just go to IBC website and all the details, deadlines, forms, etc. are there. I just haven't found the time for this one (and many others on my list) . Its the IBC and IFC - check it out.


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## Amy Jo Parish (Apr 23, 2018)

1) No
2) No
3) No

We have two fire hoses installed on stage and they have never been used. The only use they have gotten is to have the hose knocked out of its harness and lie in a pile on the stage until someone has the time and patience to put it back together. Putting those hoses back into its holster is my kryptonite - it takes forever and one small move and the whole thing falls right back out again.


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## teqniqal (Apr 23, 2018)

Amy Jo Parish said:


> We have two fire hoses installed on stage and they have never been used. The only use they have gotten is to have the hose knocked out of its harness and lie in a pile on the stage until someone has the time and patience to put it back together. Putting those hoses back into its holster is my kryptonite - it takes forever and one small move and the whole thing falls right back out again.



Approach your AHJ and request permission to have the hose rack (re)installed inside a standard hose rack enclosure. This will keep it from getting bumped and 'discombooberated'.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Apr 23, 2018)

Or approach ahj and ask if he wants you to fight fires or get out; and ask if any of the fire service would ever use those hoses.


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## darinlwebb (Apr 24, 2018)

1. No
2. Never used, never seen used, didn't know they were intended for occupant use, always assumed it was for the FD.
3. I only say 'no' because of my answer to the previous two. If I had training, I would probably say yes.

Is there risk in having a hose reel with nobody trained in it's use, or is it just a waste of money?

I'm in a less than 4 year old high school performing arts center, with hose reels just off downstage right and left. They are also in various places around the school. Perhaps Operations staff is trained on their use, but the TD and performing arts staff who will actually be anywhere nearby in the event of a fire sure are not.


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## MNicolai (Apr 25, 2018)

darinlwebb said:


> Is there risk in having a hose reel with nobody trained in it's use, or is it just a waste of money?



The primary risk is that until everyone has exited the building, the firefighters have a rescue operation on their hands instead of a firefighting operation. Obviously they're going to do a sweep of the space regardless, but if they know people (you) are inside they have to concentrate their efforts on that first.

There's something to be said for buying time for others to exit, but between requirements for sprinklers and proscenium wall protection, rooms above a certain size should already have mechanisms in place for the safe timely egress of patrons and performers. In my estimation, smaller rooms that are excepted from having sprinklers are possibly the highest hazard risk.

Also should note that either by hose or by sprinkler, once curtains start taking on water the stage can become a dangerous area quickly. The weight of the water will cause the curtains to become much heavier. Pipe battens start bending, counterweight sets start slipping through the rope locks, a set with 9 lift lines might concentrate all of the load on 2 lift lines because the pipe batten deflects and releases the load from the other lines. If you have floor boxes or power cables on the ground, you also have some degree of an electrocution risk.

Philosophy I have is that once you reach the point that you need more than a fire extinguisher or 2 to put out a fire, it's time to exit.


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## darinlwebb (Apr 30, 2018)

MNicolai said:


> once curtains start taking on water the stage can become a dangerous area quickly



I had not considered this, excellent point.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Apr 30, 2018)

Do keep in mind that it is very rare for more than one sprinkler to flow, so it's not like the movies where they all go off at once ( I detest that cinema representation as it makes people fear sprinklers). It's not as if suddenly the weight on curtain sets will triple, so don't get too freaked out.

I worked on this once - a really full and very long and tall - several hundred feet by fifty feet high - Venetian contour curtain. I wanted to be sure the curtain soaked would not pull the building or at least the curtain support down. It was not that heavy - maybe double IIRC - and in the cotton velour era. I wonder if synthetic holds as much water.


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## darinlwebb (May 1, 2018)

So what I'm hearing is that we need to take our soft goods on a field trip to the swimming pool and get some real data.


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## BillConnerFASTC (May 2, 2018)

darinlwebb said:


> So what I'm hearing is that we need to take our soft goods on a field trip to the swimming pool and get some real data.


When I researched this in the 1980s, I asked Chris Kaiser at Syracuse Scenery and Stage Lighting, so she said she took a bath with a piece and weighed it before and after. Where's your scale - bath or pool?


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## Ken Summerall Jr (Mar 9, 2019)

1. Nope
2. I saw Bruce Willis use one.
3. We have the racks but the hoses are long gone. I would rather have extinguishers, we already have 16 in our facility. (1000 seats)


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