# Small Cheap Sound Board?



## Synchronize

Hi, I'm a highschool student from nothern Illinois. I'm looking for a 4 to 6 channel mixer that is good quality for a good price. I don't want to spend more than 75 dollars. Can anybody recommend a good board from me? Thanks in advance.


----------



## avkid

What do you want?
Mic inputs, line inputs, a combination.
-
I have had good luck with Tapco products.
This is about $70 from various retailers:
http://www.tapcoworld.com/products/mixseries/index.html


----------



## mbenonis

I don't know that you'll find too too much in the price range you're looking at. However, if you go up to, say, $150 you'll probably find a few mixers with mic inputs that will work relatively well.

Take a look at the Tapco gear, though - I don't know much about it but it might fit your needs.


----------



## avkid

If you do take that jump, you will find the Peavey PV-8 at around $130.
The PV series are rock solid mixers.
http://www.peavey.com/products/browse.cfm/action/detail/item/115033/PV(R)%208.cfm


----------



## avkid

charcoaldabs said:


> I don't get it? Tapco = made by Mackie, but cheaper. What, less quality?


Compact mixers only, less fancy features.
A legacy brand, formerly Electro-Voice owned.


----------



## Synchronize

Have you guys ever heard of Behringer? Is it anygood? Specifically this board?

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Behringer-Eurorack-UB1202-Mixer?sku=631236


----------



## avkid

Synchornize said:


> Have you guys ever heard of Behringer? Is it anygood? Specifically this board?
> http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Behringer-Eurorack-UB1202-Mixer?sku=631236


I wouldn't do it.
"living in a Behringer world isn't worth anyone's time."


----------



## soundlight

Behringer is known for being one of the lowest of the low when it comes to audio. At least get a Tapco.

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Tapco-Mix.120-Compact-Mixer?sku=630265


----------



## mbenonis

Synchornize said:


> Have you guys ever heard of Behringer? Is it anygood? Specifically this board?
> http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Behringer-Eurorack-UB1202-Mixer?sku=631236



Stay away from Behringer. Not only does Behringer blatantly copy designs from other companies, they manufacture their products with the cheapest of parts and labor. One time they even copied the user's guide and forgot to change the support phone number.


----------



## derekleffew

I ran a Tapco console 10 shows per day at Cedar Point summer of '82 and never had a single problem with it. But things were built better back then. I also never had any problems with the motorized autotransformer dimmers.

Is the Mackie 1202 still a viable option? It was, 15 years ago, but I think MSRP was $399.


----------



## Hughesie

Synchornize said:


> Have you guys ever heard of Behringer? Is it anygood?
> 
> i own a behringer desk, they are not worth owning,
> 
> it was the most purchase i ever made.
> 
> save your money buy a nice desk and it will reward you with a good service life


----------



## len

soundlight said:


> Behringer is known for being one of the lowest of the low when it comes to audio. At least get a Tapco.
> http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Tapco-Mix.120-Compact-Mixer?sku=630265



Tapco was known for a long time as a top quality brand, or so I thought. I remember considering a dj mixer from them 20 years ago. Bought a Rane instead. Anyway, was Tapco ever any good or am I just losing my memory?

To respond to the original question:

If you can't afford decent quality, I'd suggest you hunt around for rentals until you can. Buying junk is never a good idea, and $75 likely won't get you very far. If you're buying a mixer to make money mixing a show or something, make sure what you get paid is worth your time and the cost of equipment you need to rent. If you're using it for a student project or for something else you're doing for fun or education, you're probably better off making do than suffering with crap.


----------



## silvrwolf

mbenonis said:


> Stay away from Behringer. Not only does Behringer blatantly copy designs from other companies, they manufacture their products with the cheapest of parts and labor. One time they even copied the user's guide and forgot to change the support phone number.



Thats amazing! DO you know what product it was for ?


----------



## soundlight

Tapco was a completely different company 20 years ago - an EV company, per previous post. Now, they're basically Mackie's minimixer brand.

My favorite Behringer story is the Onyx-Xenyx story. The Mackie Onyx series of mixers came out. Then, at the next audio tradeshow in Europe, Behringer released the Xenyx series. It was clearly a complete ripoff of the name Onyx. But the funny part is that the Xenyx mixers didn't even look like the Onyx mixers. They didn't even bother to update the mixer enclosures! They simply focused on what they thought was the best part of the Onyx - the preamp. They simply came out with new "xenyx" preamps and popped them in the old mixers and gave them a new coat of paint!

Oh, and the great part about the UB, SL, and Xenyx mixers is the bleed and crosstalk. You can't kill a channel with the mute button or by bringing the fader all the way down! The funniest install that I saw was one where they spent loads of money on some good Sennheiser wireless units and dbx compressors, but apparently they didn't care what happened after that, because they bought a Behringer SL!


----------



## David Ashton

I use the behringer mixers for small installs and they work fine, unlike their awful lighting desks[these are an original design but they would have done much better copying absolutely any other desk], however with these low cost desks when they fail, dirty faders or drink spill you throw them out, it is not economic to repair them, so for my own use I go for used better quality gear and learn how to do minor repairs and fader changing etc.


----------



## hsaunier

Alto mixers are another line of "budget" products that you might consider.


----------



## museav

Back to the question Phil asked, what do you need? How many mic inputs and how many line inputs? Any stereo inputs? Do you need phantom power? Mono or stereo out? And auxes or other sends? Do you want channel EQ? These type of factors may narrow down the options.

From the Pro Audio Names page on Rane's web site,

> TAPCO Technical Audio Products Company, Greg Mackie's first audio company founded in 1969, acquired by Electro-Voice, who retired the brand name, and was subsequently bought by Telex (now owned by Bosch Communication Systems). Name recently recovered by Greg Mackie and reissued by Mackie in 2003 as a new acronym for Total Audio Production Company.


TAPCO was Greg Mackie's original company and TAPCO mixers were known for being very basic and relatively inexpensive but also very reliable and durable. Basically, the first mixers made specifically for bands and the MI market. TAPCO was acquired by E-V in the late 70's who continued it for a few years, despite Greg's leaving to found AudioControl, before retiring the name. Then Greg brought the TAPCO name back to Mackie. I unfortunately don't have any experience with the new TAPCO products, but would probably try them over Behringer.


----------



## len

soundlight said:


> Tapco was a completely different company 20 years ago - an EV company, per previous post.



At least I'm not completely senile. Thanks for the info.


----------



## avkid

len said:


> At least I'm not completely senile. Thanks for the info.


Does this look familiar Len?


----------



## gafftaper

Don't buy the Behringer. Not only is it likely to die on you soon, it's just bad for your Karma. You know the whole guilt about shopping at Walmart because they are an evil corporation... well Behringer is far worse when it comes to evil business practice.

Sweetwater has several Tapco options in your price range. If you can go to $100 they've got a nice little Yamaha with built in phantom power. Notice Sweetwater doesn't carry Behringer. 

Nady and Sampson also make some funky cheap gear. It's not great either but you can at least buy it guilt free. 

Or give CB member BillESC a phone call/P.M. and see what he can do for you in your price range.


----------



## soundlight

Nady is actually WORSE than Behringer from my experience. However, I have a Samson Mixpad 12 (legacy product), and it serves me well. Pretty clean little board, and it has alot of miles on it. With 6 mic inputs and 3 stereo inputs, 2 auxes and 2 stereo returns, it's a pretty loaded board for its size. The only problem is that there's no mid EQ.


----------



## avkid

gafftaper said:


> Nady and Sampson also make some funky cheap gear. It's not great either but you can at least buy it guilt free.


Nady is as close to Behringer knockoffs as one can get.
Samson is hit or miss, we have some dual 15 band eq's that are fairly responsive but contribute a ton of noise to the system.
Just research before you buy!


----------



## derekleffew

Sounds akin to replacing a Buick with a Kia.


----------



## jkowtko

Back to the original question and price point ($75) ... Behringer does make a lot of inexpensive equipment, and they can't be 100% bad because they're still in business. Granted, not high end, and maybe prone to problems, so treat it gently, and buy from a local shop if possible, or one that has a good warranty repair policy. Or find a used one dirt cheap, test it out thoroughly before you buy it, and expect it won't last too long. (Even a new one, I guess, don't plan on it lasting for more than a year).

The 802, 1002, 1202, 1002FX, or 1202FX are inexpensive units that can handle a handful of mics and line inputs. The FX has onboard sound effects as well.

Just remember the usual adage -- "you get what you pay for" in terms of audio quality and reliability. But bottom line is that the unit should still function.


----------



## avkid

jkowtko said:


> But bottom line is that the unit should still function.


There is absolutely no question that it will function, the question is for how long will it continue to?


----------



## soundlight

jkowtko said:


> But bottom line is that the unit should still function.



Unless all 5 of the UB/SL series that I've worked with have been flukes of production, no, they don't function. I consider the mute buttons not muting a signal not functioning.

I'm not saying that Behringer is the end of the world in all departments - their EQ's aren't the total end of the world, their B5 condenser mic is comparable to a Shure PG81 on drum overheads (though who wouldn't buy the shure at the same price!), and their EP series of power amps are actually pretty solid, and the 2500 can take a 2 ohm load and run all night without having any problems. And their older (MX2442, MX3282) mixers are pretty decent. But the UB and Xenyx series of mixers are just the end...there are so many other things that are less than a stone's throw away in price that it's not worth it. Their speakers are also really substandard and their lower end EQs leave much to be desired.


----------



## howlingwolf487

Go with a Mackie...I guarantee you will NEVER regret paying a bit more for it.


----------



## Synchronize

We have a really nice Mackie 1604-VLZ3 16 Channel mixer. We all love it. Our setup is kind of crap because our school has no money .

We have an auditeria, Auditorium/Cafateria. The way the wiering was set up when the auditeria was built is garbage. From the lightbooth, which is way in the back left corner of the auditeria, your can only see half the stage and hear nothing. So what do they do? They put all of the amps, CD player, and all of the wiering back there. Then the house speakers are hard wiered into the amps. The backstage moniters are hard wiered into another amp backstage. (Or something like that... I'm the light engineer, I just dabble in sound.) So two years ago we got the new sound board. Then we got two new speakers to put up on the stage so we dont need the crappy house speakers. This year we finally got a long ***** snake so we can put the sound board in the middle of the auditeria and run the snake up to the stage. We can run the a mic cable fromt he poard into a mic input to get sound through the house if we have to. But since we have limited space around the sound board we have no room for for sound effects equipment. So we just want a small board to keep back in the light booth that we can run a mic in the booth and the sound effects equipment through the house speakers with. What would best suit that?


----------



## derekleffew

This may be _too_ simple and idiot-proof for you, but check out all that RDL makes, specifically the ST-UMX3 Universal Mixer. (You'd also need the PS24V power supply for $18.99). Every sound system in every hotel here in Las Vegas uses an RDL "Stick-On" for some purpose.

Edit: Link fixed. I'll try to be more careful next time; second time in two days, I need to give myself a 1/2 demerit.


----------



## soundlight

If you can, put the sound effects equipment _under_ the sound board in a rack, which can be had for about a hundred dollars (for a shallow SKB roto-molded rack). This is the way that I'd do it.

And Derek, check your RDL link. It has a controlbooth link in front of it followed by the RDL link, so it doesn't work.


----------



## Hughesie

charcoaldabs said:


> Guess who got a new Nady wireless mic system?
> 
> It's to replace the Shures...


----------



## museav

Synchornize said:


> We have a really nice Mackie 1604-VLZ3 16 Channel mixer. We all love it. Our setup is kind of crap because our school has no money .
> We have an auditeria, Auditorium/Cafateria. The way the wiering was set up when the auditeria was built is garbage. From the lightbooth, which is way in the back left corner of the auditeria, your can only see half the stage and hear nothing. So what do they do? They put all of the amps, CD player, and all of the wiering back there. Then the house speakers are hard wiered into the amps. The backstage moniters are hard wiered into another amp backstage. (Or something like that... I'm the light engineer, I just dabble in sound.) So two years ago we got the new sound board. Then we got two new speakers to put up on the stage so we dont need the crappy house speakers. This year we finally got a long ***** snake so we can put the sound board in the middle of the auditeria and run the snake up to the stage. We can run the a mic cable fromt he poard into a mic input to get sound through the house if we have to. But since we have limited space around the sound board we have no room for for sound effects equipment. So we just want a small board to keep back in the light booth that we can run a mic in the booth and the sound effects equipment through the house speakers with. What would best suit that?


I appreciate your enthusiasm and passion and offer the following comments only to potentially help and protect you and others.

First, just to get it out of the way, I doubt you are a "Light Engineer". Lighting is traditionally part of Electrical Engineering and especially when addressing system design and installation rather than system operation, you probably should not be using the title Engineer without having first earned it through the appropriate education, experience and license. Illinois law seems to agree on this.

You seem to perhaps be making a lot of assumptions on what is "garbage" and what is proper based on very limited actual relevant knowledge and experience, especially in regards to installation practices and code compliance. For example, I have had many public projects that would prohibit a temporary snake across the floor in this type of application due to the liability it presents as a trip hazard (I would usually instead have connections for the console on a rear or side wall so that the mixer could be located there with the snake run a very short distance directly to the mixer without crossing an occupied floor area). And some of the other comments make me curious as to how the new speakers were installed and if they are properly mounted and installed, much less how everything is wired. Being a school application, there may be safety and code aspects of which you apparently simply aren't aware.

Adding a cheap mixing console to the system as planned just doesn't seem like a good idea. It will make the system much more susceptible to problems and more difficult to use. It will also make the system performance limited by that one device. Of course, I'm not sure if you are running the system stereo or mono since you mentioned adding two speakers but then also mentioned running the Mackie output into a mic input, which would also be running line level into a mic level input and not a good idea. If you had to have an intermediate mixer, I would look at something simple like a Rane MLM82S or MLM803, Ashly MX-406 or TOA M-243. Ideally, you might consider a matrix DSP device that could provide some automixing for basic function and some system processing as well as tie in the Mackie.

I noted the comment regarding having no room for sound effects equipment. What stands out to me here is the concern with sound effects while there is no mention of any system processing. I would certainly look at incorporating some system processing (EQ, limiting, etc.) before I would be spending money to address effects.

Do you have a long term plan for the audio systems? Are the changes already made and being considered a part of this plan? Are they being documented along the way so that others have a record of the system? Who is designing any changes, defining the wiring practices, documenting the system and any changes, adjusting system gain structure and processing settings, etc.? It sounds like this could easily become the all too common situation of creating as many problems as you fix, especially for those coming later. If it is not properly thought through, what you do now could easily postpone other improvements or increase the cost of future projects I really suggest that you consider getting a qualified Consultant or Contractor to help you develop an overall plan for the system and to perform some of the work, especially when it comes to things like mounting speakers. I realize that budget is tight and that you often have to do what you can with what you have, but there is a time and place for that and then there are times that it simply shouldn't be done if it can't be done right. Getting a professional in may also provide a potential learning opportunity.

So I recognize your willingness to "do what it takes" and to try to come up with cost effective solutions, but I think you may be getting to where you simply don't know what you don't know and should really get some professional assistance.


----------



## Synchronize

When they built our highschool they did so in a very quick and hurried fashion. They cut funding where ever they could, and sadly that means everthing that had to do with the arts. We had all of our cables running through the walls, then comming out into the booth. Problem is that the booth is back in the corner, ther are all of the light controls back there (including a very large, intrusive box that contains all of the circuit breakers for the lights that has a very large fan in it that makes tons of noise.) So basically when you have the mixer in the booth you cant EQ because you cant hear anything. That is why we got the new snake, run it up to the stage from the center of the auditeria, then take it back down after the show.

As for:

> I realize that budget is tight and that you often have to do what you can with what you have, but there is a time and place for that and then there are times that it simply shouldn't be done if it can't be done right. Getting a professional in may also provide a potential learning opportunity.



Things arnt done right already. Things werent done right when the building was built. Nothing is labled in the booth wiering wise. Our drama dept doenst even have a buget. Everythign that we get new tech wise, me and the sound guy buy ourselfs. So thats why I'm trying to keep it cheap.


> So I recognize your willingness to "do what it takes" and to try to come up with cost effective solutions, but I think you may be getting to where you simply don't know what you don't know and should really get some professional assistance.



And how can I pay for that? And what is getting a professional going to do for me? All I want is a small sound board to run some effects through the old system and out the house speakers.


----------



## museav

Bluntly, not having money to do it right isn't a legitimate excuse if what you do potentially hurts someone or makes it more difficult for others.

I could be wrong, but issues such as the wiring apparently still having no numbers, that there has apparently been no attempt to develop any system documentation, and that you made changes to the system for your immediate benefit that have subsequently led to other implications that you are trying to address after the fact and with no real budget at least indicate that a long term or overall perspective on the system has been absent.

It is also all too easy in your situation to look at things from the perspective of more immediate needs, after all you're only there a few years and then it is somebody else's problem. For example, the changes you have made to the audio system may benefit you immediately but are they potentially creating problems or making it more difficult for others? Has making a basic announcement or supporting a small panel discussion or playing background music gone from plugging in a mic or two or starting a CD and using a wall mount volume control to requiring a tech setting up a mixer and snake? Maybe not, but these are the kind of issues where having someone involved with a broader perspective and no particular agenda may help.

I constantly deal with clients that don't have the money to do what they want or even need. Instead of throwing something together that simply fits their budget, I instead try to develop an overall solution for them that that allows them eventually obtain their overall goals while initially implementing the immediately critical aspects within their current budget. The focus is on providing a plan and path to achieve the desired goals rather than just addressing short term issues or spending whatever funds they do have. At least in my experience, you may want to consider what you want to do long term and put together a plan, then try to implement that plan. This can have several benefits.

First, you quite likely already have what you have because they tried to "make do" with limited funding. Complaining that what is there is not right and was not a well considered solution while essentially continuing that same approach makes no sense. So a first step might be to address some of the core existing issues so that you have a good starting point. Have you tried creating some documentation of the system and installing some cable numbers? That doesn't have a big cost beyond your effort and would seem to potentially greatly benefit you and others. Maybe you can do some inexpensive things to address some existing issues and to start outlining where you want to go so that the next person has a better basis to work from than you did.

Another potential benefit relates to funding. Have you talked to the school management or the local board and maybe presented them an organized plan with some realistic goals and budgets? Have you tried fund raisers or getting donations for a specific aspect or project? You might have better luck if you were to try to get donations or funding for something that is well planned and defined than you do trying to simply get general funding or money simply assigned to a new piece of equipment. Many people seem to have more success getting funding or donations when they show a well thought out plan and the potential benefits of it rather than in just focusing on buying new stuff they want.

Also, remember that every dollar you spend on interim fixes may mean one more you have to raise again. So consider whether what you are doing is a real fix, simply a work around that may postpone a real fix or even something that might require other changes to make work effectively. I've seen many people spend more money over the years with interim fixes while never getting the result they wanted than they would have spent by saving their money and doing it right once. And again, it probably wouldn't hurt when you try to get funding to be able to show how what you are requesting resolves existing problems and fits into a long term plan. For example, in your particular case, instead of using your limited funds to buy an inexpensive mixer simply based on the cost, you might want to consider what the mixer really should do to serve everyone and then present an appropriate solution for funding showing that it is something that is well thought out and would benefit more than just your use.

Finally, there can be safety issues involved and this is something that needs to be considered very seriously. How are the new speakers mounted? Are they code compliant? Were they installed by someone who knows what they are doing and has some experience? If not, my suggestion is to pull them down immediately before there is an accident and/or the school gets sued. Safety is one area where doing it right is mandatory and should not be compromised due to the budget.

Sorry if I seem to be lecturing, but the goal is to maybe get you out of the mode of approaching everything as its own isolated issue and to take a bigger picture look at what can be done and how it may best be approached. Based on my experience, you would likely benefit from this in numerous ways.


----------



## Synchronize

I think you have the wrong impression of our system and what I'm trying to do. We have not made ANY changes to the original system. We basically made a whole new one. We got new moniters, new speakers to set on stage, new sound board, new cd players, new amps... all out of the limited budget over like three years. Thats so that we didn't have to deal with the old system. The old system is still in its original state. When the prinicpal wants to make a quick announcement at lunch he just has to go backstage, turn on the original amp, plug a mic in the wall socket, and talk.

All I want is a small sound board to run a mic and some sound effect boards throught that same original system.


----------



## soundlight

If that's what you want to do, the Tapco MIX120 is what you want. It can be had for $100, and is a great little board. Far above Behringer for not much more money. If you only need two mic inputs and not four, go for the MIX100.


----------



## museav

Synchornize said:


> I think you have the wrong impression of our system and what I'm trying to do. We have not made ANY changes to the original system. We basically made a whole new one. We got new moniters, new speakers to set on stage, new sound board, new cd players, new amps... all out of the limited budget over like three years. Thats so that we didn't have to deal with the old system. The old system is still in its original state. When the prinicpal wants to make a quick announcement at lunch he just has to go backstage, turn on the original amp, plug a mic in the wall socket, and talk.


I indeed took some of your comments to indicate that you were modifying and adapting the existing system. Sorry for the misunderstanding.


> All I want is a small sound board to run a mic and some sound effect boards throught that same original system.


I still don't get what you're trying to do. If the two systems are separate and you can use the old system with a mic then doesn't that existing system already have a mixer? If you need more capability for some applications then couldn't you run the Mackie output directly into the existing system using a DI box? What "sound effect boards" are you trying to run into the existing system? Is this mixer something that would be used in addition to the Mackie, in place of the Mackie or as part of the 'house' system? I'm just trying to understand the actual purpose of this additional mixer and where it fits in the system(s) so that we can establish the appropriate quantity and type of inputs and outputs, as well as an appropriate level of operator interface, for the application.


----------



## Synchronize

The old sound board, unfortunatly... broke, for a lack of better term. Its not a bad thing... it was a piece of Soundcraft garbage. With the new system there are two speakers up on stage pointing toward the audiance. The old system has the house speakers overhead all throughout the auditeria. The purpose is so that we can get different effect. Have a narrator or backgound music playing through the overheads, and have the actors or sound effects that would normally come form the stage as if (for example) a phone was really ringing.


----------



## avkid

Synchornize said:


> it was a piece of Soundcraft garbage.


You have it backwards there buddy.
-
Soundcraft is most certainly not garbage.
-
Several of their desks were world standards and remain rider friendly.
-
Not to mention their new digital desks, designed for all intensive purposes by Studer.
Studer being the world standard of high class broadcast consoles.
-
I will not refuse a working Soundcraft that meets my rider specs for channel count, aux, eq, etc..
-
If I walk in to find Mackie DFX or CFX I will walk out.


----------



## avkid

Synchornize said:


> The purpose is so that we can get different effect. Have a narrator or backgound music playing through the overheads, and have the actors or sound effects that would normally come form the stage as if (for example) a phone was really ringing.


One word for that- NO.
-
Point source for SFX is a good concept, but that is not the way to do it.
-
Turn off the ceiling speakers.


----------



## avkid

charcoaldabs said:


> Phil, I'm by no means a Sound Engineer, but I thought the multiple speaker systems were much more advanced and preferable to two speaker systems, inline with the apron?


Properly configured with the correct electronic processing and routing.
-
This sounds like a mess.
-
You can over complicate a sound system too.
(not with color changers though)
-
A multiple system as you call it, could just be a simple cluster, a surround setup or a line array.
-
They vary widely in cost and uses.


----------



## howlingwolf487

charcoaldabs said:


> ... I thought the multiple speaker systems were much more advanced and preferable to two speaker systems, inline with the apron?


I did a gig in a country club near my home that spent around $70,000 on new in-ceiling speakers from JBL. Frankly, I wasn't impressed at all... 
In-ceiling speakers can sound fine if used for their intended purpose - in this case, making announcements and hearing the office page people, etc. In your case, it seems they are not for sound reinforcement - they are for sound distribution so that there is general coverage without too great an emphasis on quality (intelligibility, maybe).

You can put together a killer rig with only a small number of speakers...in fact, unless processed and arrayed/splayed properly, more cabinets can (and often do) equal more mess/hassle. Keeping the rig simple allows for quick and efficient troubleshooting and also means that practically anyone can be taught how to operate and correctly patch the system and its components.

Back to the OP...as far as mixers go, I still say stick with a Mackie. Get a 1604VLZ3 or whatever best suits your application. If you want to get a really nice small format analog board, go for a ProRack House from APB Dynasonics. A Yamaha 01V96 would be my choice for digital as it's a great workhorse. Also keep in mind that you should be able to use this stuff in the future for other things that the school may have up its sleeve(s).

As for the Soundcraft remark...I agree that the majority of their boards are great to work on/with, but the Spirit series didn't float my boat.


----------



## jkowtko

Synchornize said:


> The old sound board, unfortunatly... broke, for a lack of better term. Its not a bad thing... it was a piece of Soundcraft garbage. With the new system there are two speakers up on stage pointing toward the audiance. The old system has the house speakers overhead all throughout the auditeria. The purpose is so that we can get different effect. Have a narrator or backgound music playing through the overheads, and have the actors or sound effects that would normally come form the stage as if (for example) a phone was really ringing.



I saw the other posts following this --

Even though you may not expect to get any great quality sound out of the ceiling speakers, you could use them for effect, ambience, voices "from above", etc. I would certainly consider the two speakers on stage as your primaries though ... but kind of neat if you can tap into different sound sources in the room for different effects.


----------



## howlingwolf487

charcoaldabs said:


> For the "multiple speaker system" I was referring to, it seems like we're making mention of different things. You talk about $70k for "paging speakers". The type of system I was referring to I've seen implemented in a couple of regional theaters in Philly, I just don't know how to describe it, other than there were more that two, and they were used to shift the perception of where sound was coming from, put it wasn't necessarily point source sound effects.



I'm pretty sure it would be something along the lines of speaker zoning. ZDM (Zoned Dual Mono) comes to mind from the Old SoundMan of PSW...

And, you are partly correct about the paging speakers. When referring to the OP's in-ceiling system, I was talking about paging speakers (thanks for the term - I didn't know how to phrase it).  
However, the $70k install I was talking about did NOT include paging speakers, but were for use as a spoken word/ambient music system. It performed its duty fine (good coverage from what I recall), I just didn't like the way it sounded. I think the ceilings were too high for the speakers to be as effective as intended by the manufacturer.

+1 for the effect type of thing. It could come in handy, and I'm sure you could find a way to make it work for a certain type of effect or show.


----------



## gafftaper

Hey Sync... First agree that your Soundcraft board was a good board. How is it broken? Can it be repaired? I know you live in the middle of nowhere but repair may be a good option. I pointed out a while back that Sweetwater has a little Yamaha MG102c for $100 including free shipping. That's FAR more board for your money than a Behringer. If you want to stay under $100 then go Tapco Sweetwater has three options under $70. 

Howlingwolf the guy's looking for a $75 mixer... the Mackie 1640 Vlz3 is an $800 mixer. 

Sync, Museav makes some really good points. I used to teach High School drama on no budget so I do understand where you are coming from here. But I've also seen plenty of students who don't understand how something was intended to work and so they call it junk and try to do their own thing (which may be inferior). While it could be that what they have already is more than enough and if they just had a little training. As in your lighting thread I suggest you post some pictures of your existing equipment so that we can get a better idea of what you have and what you are trying to do. It may be that we can teach you a better way to use what you already have. 

Finally you talk about having this board so you can run effects through it. Just what do you want to do? If your new portable setup is so much better why do you want to run effects through the other speakers? Do you have a reverb unit or some other sort of effects device to run through this other board?


----------



## mixmaster

OK here's my two cents worth:
1) Soundcraft has long been a respectable brand. Up until a few years ago I did monitors on an old Series 400B. I would say that's one of the oldest boards I've worked on that is still fully functional and is a testament to Soundcraft's quality. That being said, somtimes electronics fail. It happens to the best of us, usually right before a show. Just because it broke, doesn't make it bad.

2) I would be willing to bet the speakers installed in the ceiling are paging speakers. given that you say they all run off one amp, I'd bet they are also on a 70v distributed system. These systems are not *usually* designed for anything more than the occasional announcements or background music. Rather than throw money at a problem till you stumble across a solution, I might recommend that you accept that the ceiling speaker are not the right tool for the job, and put you effects in your new mains where it belongs. The concepts of using multiple speakers for fancy effects that has come up elsewhere in this thread is a good concept, but I suspect not even in the same ballpark as your situation.
3) As I understand your project, you want to take a line off of the "show console" in the middle of the floor, send it to a mixer in the booth where you will modulate it with some sort of effect, and then send it to the overheads. Is this right? Perhaps there is a better idea to consider. How about putting your effects out at the "show console", send a line level feed back down your snake on a return, and use a transformer to plug that feed int the mic jack that your principle uses to make announcements. 
This benefits you two ways. First and foremost, it gives control of the effects to the person in the house who can hear them best, rather than requiring another person to run them from the booth. Benefit two, you can find a level matching transformer much cheaper than a mini-mixer.
BTW, that big box in the light booth with all the circuit breakers and noisy fan, that's you dimmer rack. I know it's noisy but at least it's enclosed in the booth. I have one venue where mine is on a balcony above the stage left wingspace. You can hear the fan clear out into the house.
Good luck and happy hunting.
Matt


----------



## gafftaper

mixmaster said:


> BTW, that big box in the light booth with all the circuit breakers and noisy fan, that's you dimmer rack. I know it's noisy but at least it's enclosed in the booth. I have one venue where mine is on a balcony above the stage left wingspace. You can hear the fan clear out into the house.
> Good luck and happy hunting.
> Matt



The high school I used to teach at had it's dimmer rack behind the proscenium wall less than 2 feet from the stage. There was just barely enough room for someone to stand and operate the grand. You listened to it the whole show.


----------



## museav

Seems to be the common problem of not enough information leading to numerous assumptions and misconceptions.

Distributed systems (lots of ceiling speakers) have their place and like any type of system, can be properly or improperly applied or designed. The biggest advantage of distributed systems is usually that they can provide even coverage and good intelligibility in some environments where this might be difficult with other systems. I have designed several large training and ballroom type systems that used high quality speakers such as JBL or Tannoy models that are essentially ceiling speaker versions of their monitor speakers and that put out well over 100dB of full range, high fidelity sound everywhere in the room.

However, most distributed systems are intended primarily for speech and/or do not use such high quality, and expensive, speakers. While proper use of zoning and delays can help, distributed systems are also often limited in being able to provide localization, relating the sound to a specific location, that can be desired for theatrical applications. As a high school cafetorium that was done on a budget, I would guess that it is indeed a 70V distributed systems using fairly inexpensive speakers and was intended for basic speech and maybe background music use.

It is a common practice, and one I often apply in multipurpose rooms like this as well as in larger classrooms and presentation rooms, to separate the music and speech aspects by having a distributed system for speech (for good coverage and intelligibility) and a stereo system for program material at the screen or stage (for localization and full range response). So this approach by itself is common. It is the mixing concept and how that relates to the use that I still do not understand. As mixmaster noted, it sounds like you would just mix everything at FOH using the Mackie with the stereo output going to the stage speakers and an aux send via a DI or inline pad to one of the distributed system inputs.

Charcoaldabs, what you describe sounds more like front fill or perhaps dedicated effects or practicals. One concept that was common a number of years ago but that I have not seen used for some time was to provide a precedent speaker, a single directional speaker at the primary source location, in conjunction with a distributed system. This was particularly applicable to churches where the distributed system provided the coverage and level while a precedent speaker provided some localization to the pulpit. It may be that the system you saw was using the front fill or effects speakers to provide some precedence back to the actors or effects.


----------



## Synchronize

Wow, so much stuff to reply to. First since I got the most for my Soundcraft comment, it was/is/was a Sprit FX16. The EQs didn't work properly and it was/is/was missing half of the plastic covers of the sliders. What happened was the PSU connection was ripped out, the wiers came out and the connector stayed in. I've been working on it but thanks to Soundcraft engineering genius I cant tell what their wiering system is. So you think, "Not too hard, just match up the colors." So I opened up the board to take a look at what color went where. Right, too easy. They don't use the same colors in the board and PSU. and of couse they cant use the traditional Red-Black-White scheme either. So I'm having somebody to test the circuits to find out what is positive negative and ground.

As for the "crappyness" of the old overhead system. My partner in crime, the sound guy, seems to think that is a result of the amps they used. Ill get some pics of the system.


----------



## soundlight

The Spirit FX16 is a great board. I've mixed and recorded on one, and it's very easy to use and the mic pres are great. If you can, get that sucker working again, and grab some new fader caps off ebay or from a Soundcraft dealer.


----------



## soundlight

The Soundcraft also has an very nice built in Lexicon Effects processor.


----------



## Synchronize

But the EQs don't seem to work right either. I really like the Mackie and honestly I'd rather use that any day.


----------



## museav

Synchornize said:


> My partner in crime, the sound guy, seems to think that is a result of the amps they used. Ill get some pics of the system.


I seriously doubt that it is simply the amps themselves, unless they used totally inappropriate or seriously underpowered amps it is much more likely to be the wiring, EQ, some simple switch or control setting, gain structure, speakers/transformers, etc. For example, a common issue would be to have a 70V distributed system but to have the amplifier wired and/or a selector switch on the rear panel set for 8 Ohm operation. This is exactly the type of situation I was addressing where I would suggest understanding all of these other issues and verifying they are correct before you assume the equipment is the problem. There are lots of people getting crappy sound from good equipment and a quite a bit fewer people getting good sound from crappy equipment, it's much better to be one of the latter.


----------



## howlingwolf487

gafftaper said:


> Howlingwolf the guy's looking for a $75 mixer... the Mackie 1640 Vlz3 is an $800 mixer.



Yes, so I noticed...my bad. I don't know how well a $75 mixer will do for their long term usage, however. Even though they're only spending a smaller chunk of money, I would still investigate my options to get the best quality with the required functions - don't want a new board to crap out during a show, do we.

Good luck with your search and keep on learning!


----------



## mixmaster

gafftaper said:


> The high school I used to teach at had it's dimmer rack behind the proscenium wall less than 2 feet from the stage. There was just barely enough room for someone to stand and operate the grand. You listened to it the whole show.



My same venue has the dimmers for the hose lights in the Light/Sound/spot booth. With everything on, all I hear in the booth is the whir of fans. I suppose that's not so bad - the only thing the audiance hears is the whir of the dimmer rack fans. It least it's all the same..... right?
Matt


----------



## gafftaper

mixmaster said:


> My same venue has the dimmers for the hose lights in the Light/Sound/spot booth. With everything on, all I hear in the booth is the whir of fans. I suppose that's not so bad - the only thing the audiance hears is the whir of the dimmer rack fans. It least it's all the same..... right?
> Matt



Do the dimmers heat the booth up or do you have enough air flow to keep it cool.


----------



## mixmaster

gafftaper said:


> Do the dimmers heat the booth up or do you have enough air flow to keep it cool.



There are only half a dozen dimmers in a rack meant for quite a few more. The fan runs like the rack is fully loaded though. Course, we're three stories up in a booth originally designed as an organ pipe enclosure. It's always hot. There is no AC in the booth. I thank god that they moved the stage lightning dimmers out when they did the changeover from Autotransformers and spaghetti patch. The house dimmers are noisy enough. Oh well. It makes life fun.


----------



## ccfan213

hi, 

i havent been on this site in a few years so you all probably dont remember me, but I used to be a big poster...

mackie has one thats alright. I would probably go with that. in this industry you get what you pay for. There is no such thing as cheap and good quality, and you can certainly hear the difference most of the time. To stay within that price range I would recommend ebay, A lot of people sell used equipment that is still in working order and certain things (like 6 channel analog mixers) haven't changed substantially in recent years. That way you can get a beter quality piece of equipment that will fall closer to your price range.


----------

