# Quite the story (deluge system deployment)



## Karim (Sep 10, 2011)

I hope I'm posting this in the right area and that those who read it find it interesting on some level. Read on knowing that not a soul was harmed at any point.

A few months ago, a venue that I work for quite often was undergoing some fire marshal mandated testing of its deluge curtain. For those of you who do not know what a deluge curtain is, essentially it is a giant wall of water that falls from the top of the proscenium to the stage in case of a fire to prevent smoke from crossing the proscenium from the stage into the house. At least that's how I understand them. There's a CB thread on them here:

http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/general-advice/6158-deluge-fire-safety-systems.html

Any who. During this test, the contractor who was testing the curtain decided that it was in working order and went to "reset it". Unfortunately, he didn't do that correctly (I don't know the details on what exactly he did wrong) and some time after he had left the stage, the curtain spontaneously activated itself, dumping thousands of gallons of water on to our stage. This massive downpour caused 2 of our counter-weighted line sets to run away, and in doing so, they threw 45lb bricks around like rag dolls, damaging one of the metal cables used to move one of our four motorized electrics.

The water also ruined many soft goods which were in the air for a production that was in rehearsal at the time, as well as our very nice main curtain (is there another word for that?). 

Additionally, our motorized pit, which leads into our basement (where we store fixtures and soft goods that are not in the air) was flooded. There was quite a bit of water down there. Anything near the ground was ruined and had to be repaired and the pit had to be thoroughly examined for damage (although fortunately it was unharmed).

It gets better. Remember that damaged cable for the motorized electric? Our TD noticed this damage after the water had been shut off. Some one was brought in to look at it, and in the process of replacing the cable, took the line out past its limit, causing the cable to slip from its drum, sending the whole electric plummeting to the stage. 

Just some good 'ol times at work. We're still to this day trying to fix all of the Mac2ks lost in this week. Fortunately, the stage itself was okay after a little work, and we avoided mold by going dark for around two weeks and filling the building with de-humidifiers that were constantly on.

It was quite the disaster and we're lucky that everything turned out as good as it did. Only a few things were irreparably damaged, and they have sense been replaced (yay insurance money!). It was quite the learning experience seeing how everyone handled such an unexpected set back. 

Any who, I just thought I'd share that. Any questions or comments feel free to post.


----------



## Footer (Sep 10, 2011)

Never really been a fan of deluge systems for exactly this reason. Yes, a wall can crush someone but thats the reason we don't set up bands under ours. 

I was down in a venue in the city that has one. According to one of their hands, the system false tripped during a test a few years back. Sitting DS center right under it was one of the "golden numbered" Steinways from their concert rental dept. in the city. Luckly the cover was down and they were able to get it moved with minimal damage. Had it been lid up, 200,000 piano down the tubes.


----------



## avkid (Sep 10, 2011)

Footer said:


> Sitting DS center right under it was one of the "golden numbered" Steinways from their concert rental dept. in the city. Luckly the cover was down and they were able to get it moved with minimal damage. Had it been lid up, 200,000 piano down the tubes.


I would have been in a corner crying had I seen that.


----------



## SteveB (Sep 10, 2011)

Our new theater re-design is getting a deluge curtain.

We screamed bloody at the idea but were over-ruled. Even the theatrical consultant hates them, but the cities fire dept folks as well as building dept. over-ruled.

The absurd thing is the theater is only a new audience chamber, with the stage tower staying. This stage has always had a steel framed, double sided fire curtain, which is being removed for the deluge. The rule says something about if you have less then 50ft from the deck to grid steel (or some such), you go deluge. Above that you can use a fire curtain. We are 44ft. 

We even tried to get our college architects office to tell the city "NO", we are not abiding by this rule under the theory that as we are a state owned facility, the City of NY has no jurisdiction (remember the Indiana State Fair roof collapse ?). Nobody wanted to stick their necks out on this one, so we are preparing the "I told you so" letters.

Gotta love working for the government !


----------



## Lambda (Sep 10, 2011)

Wow. I wasn't aware that these deluge systems were still being used. 


SteveB said:


> The rule says something about if you have less then 50ft from the deck to grid steel (or some such), you go deluge. Above that you can use a fire curtain. We are 44ft.


 
That's odd, we are 30' and we've got a fire curtain. That must be a local regulation. I can't imagine if we had a deluge curtain, the whole place is carpeted, all our power comes in from under the stage, and we've had the fire curtain accidentally drop before.


----------



## Footer (Sep 10, 2011)

Lambda said:


> Wow. I wasn't aware that these deluge systems were still being used.
> 
> 
> 
> That's odd, we are 30' and we've got a fire curtain. That must be a local regulation. I can't imagine if we had a deluge curtain, the whole place is carpeted, all our power comes in from under the stage, and we've had the fire curtain accidentally drop before.


 
The space that had the piano incident was built in 1996. On paper deluge systems are great. In an emergency the are much more effective and also don't require a clean fire line. 

And as far as the NYC fire codes, they are the most stringent in the country. NYS has tough codes alone, and the city just piles more on. 

...... Something involving tapatalk.......


----------



## Karim (Sep 10, 2011)

Footer said:


> The space that had the piano incident was built in 1996. On paper deluge systems are great. In an emergency the are much more effective and also don't require a clean fire line.
> 
> And as far as the NYC fire codes, they are the most stringent in the country. NYS has tough codes alone, and the city just piles more on.
> 
> ...... Something involving tapatalk.......



Is "clean fire line" in reference to the practice of keeping the area directly under the curtain free of obstructions? 

If "clean fire line" means what I think it does, then we were always told to keep it clear. I winner why that is... 

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


----------



## Chris15 (Sep 11, 2011)

So down here our building codes are based around performance requirements. They then in part 2 go on to specify "deemed to satisfy" compliance requirements. But what it does allow for is to devise an alternate solution and have the approved on equal grounds to the traditional DTS provision.

So we from time to time see some very ingenious ways of providing the same level of safety whilst avoiding whichever aspect of a DTS solution is inconveniet to a given project. Make no mistake though, having an alternate approved means far closer scrutiny and the engagement of specialist fire engineers at a pretty penny.

But it has meant in a number of their venues the Opera House has been able to remove their steel safety curtains. Instead they have a drapery curtain that lowers to a height of 2.1m above the floor. That in combination with some very specificlly engineered air movement ie. smoke extraction systems complies.
It does mean there are now restrictions on installing drapery such that enough space is left in the right areas for the make up air to come in but I'd rather take that over either a steel fire curtain or deluge any day of the week...


----------



## josh88 (Sep 11, 2011)

Karim said:


> Is "clean fire line" in reference to the practice of keeping the area directly under the curtain free of obstructions?
> 
> If "clean fire line" means what I think it does, then we were always told to keep it clear. I winner why that is...
> 
> Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk



maybe I'm misunderstanding but you were asking you _wonder_ why that is? right? the reason you need to keep things clear from under the curtain is that if you are in a space with a fire curtain and not a deluge system you have to make sure the curtain can seal off the two areas. If it's purpose is to stop the spread of smoke and fire from one portion of a theatre to another but you have a piano or scenic element sitting right under it you'd end up with a gap where it isn't seated all the way tight to the floor. so it won't be properly doing it's job.


----------



## Karim (Sep 11, 2011)

josh88 said:


> maybe I'm misunderstanding but you were asking you _wonder_ why that is? right? the reason you need to keep things clear from under the curtain is that if you are in a space with a fire curtain and not a deluge system you have to make sure the curtain can seal off the two areas. If it's purpose is to stop the spread of smoke and fire from one portion of a theatre to another but you have a piano or scenic element sitting right under it you'd end up with a gap where it isn't seated all the way tight to the floor. so it won't be properly doing it's job.


 
Hahaha, yeah, that's what I get for not checking my posts when I use my phone! But your interpretation was correct.

The thing is, however, that we have a deluge system, and not a fire curtain. I asked the venue out of curiosity and essentially found out that the order to keep it clear isn't some kind of fire marshal law, but a house rule that comes from so high up the food chain, no one in the building actually knows who made it.


----------



## Footer (Sep 11, 2011)

josh88 said:


> maybe I'm misunderstanding but you were asking you _wonder_ why that is? right? the reason you need to keep things clear from under the curtain is that if you are in a space with a fire curtain and not a deluge system you have to make sure the curtain can seal off the two areas. If it's purpose is to stop the spread of smoke and fire from one portion of a theatre to another but you have a piano or scenic element sitting right under it you'd end up with a gap where it isn't seated all the way tight to the floor. so it won't be properly doing it's job.


 
We do very, very, little theatre in my venue. Most of the time we have concerts in. My biggest fear is not that the wall comes down and breaks some scenery, its the wall comes down and breaks the lead singer... in half. The wall comes down fast enough that during a loud show you would not hear the horns, see the strobes, or know whats up.... especially after a few beers. Yes, it hits a dasher at 6' but its still moving at a pretty good clip. Our wall weighs 14 tons, when it goes, it goes. Therefore, when setting up a show we are extremely careful to place the monitor line in the fire line or upstage of it in order to keep talent US of the wall. Monitors can get crushed and replaced... 

With a deluge system the worst thing you have to worry about is wet talent.


----------



## josh88 (Sep 11, 2011)

well true there's that aspect too, I was working under the assumption that if you keep the stuff a person might want to walk on or be near out of that area they too will hopefully already be clear of it should that happen.


----------



## cdub260 (Sep 11, 2011)

Footer said:


> With a deluge system the worst thing you have to worry about is wet talent.


 
I don't know footer. That's some really rank water in those pipes.

They'd be pretty stinky too.


----------



## venuetech (Sep 11, 2011)

Footer said:


> With a deluge system the worst thing you have to worry about is wet talent.



A wall of water will toss talent "around like rag dolls" if it hits them


----------



## tjrobb (Sep 11, 2011)

We had a theatre in town trip the deluge system, 5000gpm with 5 minutes run time... and no floor drains in the basement. Was an event to clean up.


----------



## SteveB (Sep 11, 2011)

Footer said:


> The space that had the piano incident was built in 1996. On paper deluge systems are great. In an emergency the are much more effective and also don't require a clean fire line.
> 
> ...... Something involving tapatalk.......



Just out of curiosity but to what document do you base your opinion that deluge are more effective then a curtain ?. If I could find it, the ESTA journal a few years back had a paper written that detailed the effectiveness of a standard fire curtain, with one of the advantages being a physical barrier to burning scenery, which a deluge does not offer. In truth, I have no idea which is better and I suspect many theater consultants and engineers don't either. _Protocol_ - Fall 2009 digital edition

When a fire curtain comes in, you certainly need to get the hell out of the way, but a deluge does major damage as well, including almost always requiring a new stage floor, as well as replacing whatever in the basement gets flooded. The Joyce Theater in NY, which is about the busiest facility in NYC for dance, has had it's deluge trip accidentally on 3 occasions. Each time meant major repairs to the basement dressing rooms as well as - each time, a replacement of the dimmer racks and associated electrical systems. A local college had theirs go off on a Friday night. The public safety office discovered the problem Sunday afternoon. Kimmel Center in Philadelphia, a premier concert hall, had it's deluge go off during an orchestra rehearsal. Needless to say, these stories make me very unhappy with out situation.
y


----------



## Footer (Sep 11, 2011)

SteveB said:


> Just out of curiosity but to what document do you base your opinion that deluge are more effective then a curtain ?. If I could find it, the ESTA journal a few years back had a paper written that detailed the effectiveness of a standard fire curtain, with one of the advantages being a physical barrier to burning scenery, which a deluge does not offer. In truth, I have no idea which is better and I suspect many theater consultants and engineers don't either.



None whatsoever. The one advantage to them is a "wall" of water that theorticly nothing hot can get through. Against a fire curtain, in my view, its a crapshoot. Falling scenery can tear through Zetex just as fast as it can go through a wall of water. As far as which is more effective at stopping the spread of fire, I personally lean towards the deluge. It has nothing to get hung up on. So, once again, in my view they are safer on paper. 

Also, we are looking at false trips here. Most fire suppression contracts think that if the system trips, the building is lost anway, they only care about getting anyone in the building out safely. Also, modern deluge systems are really just a series of high flow sprinkler heads across the proscenium, not a 10,000 gallon tank of water that feeds a trough like they used to be. 

I'm also pretty positive its much cheaper to install a deluge system then a fire curtain, hince the reason we are seeing them more. The real question we have to ask is why are they going off when they should not? You hardly ever hear of buildings sprinklers systems going off when they shouldn't. Hell, the sprinkler in my apt right now has at least 25 years of dust on it.


----------



## mstaylor (Sep 12, 2011)

I can see the advantages of a deluge in lieu of a curtain. I just can't imagine ever specing one without the means to get rid of the water without major damage. I can see the logic that if it is activated then water is the least of your worries, but there obviously enough instances of accidental trips that it should be considered.


----------



## dvsDave (Sep 12, 2011)

What if, God Forbid, someone monumentally screws up and there is an oil-based fire onstage? Wouldn't a deluge of water just exasperate the problem?


----------



## Chris15 (Sep 12, 2011)

Now we know that rain is too finely dissipated to effectively conduct electricity (Thanks Mythbusters) but I have a suspicion that a deluge would be quite happy to conduct a serious current , like say maye a 400A mains feed?


----------



## derekleffew (Sep 12, 2011)

dvsDave said:


> ...Wouldn't a deluge of water just _exasperate_ the problem?


It might, but may be more likely to _exacerbate_ the problem.

(So as to make this not a totally pointless post), Note that I found the article for which [USER]SteveB[/USER] was looking as mentioned in post #16 above. Interesting reading.


----------



## gafftaper (Sep 13, 2011)

Karim said:


> The water also ruined many soft goods which were in the air for a production that was in rehearsal at the time, as well as our very nice main curtain (is there another word for that?).
> 
> Any who, I just thought I'd share that. Any questions or comments feel free to post.


 
Hey Karim, The main curtain is usually officially called "The Grand Drape" but you will hear people call it the "Grand Curtain", just "the Grand", or the "Grand Rag". 


"Any Who" Really?


----------



## Karim (Sep 13, 2011)

gafftaper said:


> Hey Karim, The main curtain is usually officially called "The Grand Drape" but you will hear people call it the "Grand Curtain", just "the Grand", or the "Grand Rag".
> 
> 
> "Any Who" Really?



Ohh, thanks. "Grand Rag" is definitely the winner in my book.

At least I didn't capitalize "who" 

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


----------



## derekleffew (Sep 13, 2011)

gafftaper said:


> Hey Karim, The main curtain is usually officially called "The Grand Drape" but you will hear people call it the "Grand Curtain", just "the Grand", or the "Grand Rag".


http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/...perations/18759-grand-main-house-curtain.html


----------



## Sony (Sep 13, 2011)

dvsDave said:


> What if, God Forbid, someone monumentally screws up and there is an oil-based fire onstage? Wouldn't a deluge of water just exasperate the problem?



I would actually guess that no it wouldn't. At a rate of 5,000gpm the water flow would be probably high enough that the oil would get broken up into fine particles from the force and turbulence of the water and would probably be extinguished from the sheer volume of water. Of course this is assuming the fire is very close to the fire line and that is it just a small fire from say an oil lamp. Also modern water based fire suppression systems are highly effective on oil fires as well as regular fires. This is because modern fire suppression systems, especially deluge system atomize the water into superfine particles which more effectively control and suppress even large and oil based fires by filling the air with a water mist making it harder for the fire to burn effectively.


----------



## What Rigger? (Sep 16, 2011)

derekleffew said:


> It might, but may be more likely to _exacerbate_ the problem.
> 
> (So as to make this not a totally pointless post), Note that I found the article for which SteveB was looking as mentioned in post #16 above. Interesting reading.



Derek, didn't a deluge get accidentally triggered at a venue we were familiar with back in the very late 90's? I seem to remember hearing stories, but it happened prior to my arrival.


----------



## shiben (Sep 17, 2011)

What Rigger? said:


> Derek, didn't a deluge get accidentally triggered at a venue we were familiar with back in the very late 90's? I seem to remember hearing stories, but it happened prior to my arrival.


 
Well thats just unconscionably vague...


----------



## porkchop (Sep 17, 2011)

Chris15 said:


> Now we know that rain is too finely dissipated to effectively conduct electricity (Thanks Mythbusters) but I have a suspicion that a deluge would be quite happy to conduct a serious current , like say maye a 400A mains feed?


 
When you short main feeds building power tends to go out VERY fast. That would more than likely prevent a problem. I know from experience... I don't wanna talk about it.


----------



## derekleffew (Sep 17, 2011)

What Rigger? said:


> Derek, didn't a deluge get accidentally triggered at a venue we were familiar with back in the very late 90's? I seem to remember hearing stories, but it happened prior to my arrival.


I vaguely recall that. It seems almost every venue with a deluge system has experienced at least one unwanted discharge.


----------



## What Rigger? (Sep 23, 2011)

shiben said:


> Well thats just unconscionably vague...


 
Hey man, just keepin' the details so as to not jeopardize anyone's employment. Not sayin' we did anything...just that we're still in that "can't say" club.


----------



## gafftaper (Sep 23, 2011)

shiben said:


> Well thats just unconscionably vague...



Some of the really high end employers in the industry (Like the place vaguely mentioned) take secrecy VERY seriously. Saying where you work and giving advice gives the appearance that you are speaking on behalf of your employer. What if I start posting, "I work for Cirque/Disney/Caesar's Palace/Upstaging/NBC and this is how we do things"? It gives the appearance that the company is officially giving out advice via me. What happens if I give out bad advice? What happens if something goes wrong? What if I give away secrets about their best tricks? It get's really messy fast and these big employers don't like dealing with lawyers or messes. So they have employees sign non-disclosure agreements, promising to not publicly identify themselves as employees. 

Unfortunately being vague is the only way some members can post here.


----------



## PeterBuchin (Sep 23, 2011)

Could someone post a video of a planned test of a deluge curtain? 
It would not only be fascinating to watch, but instructional for those who work in a house with a deluge system but have no idea as to the force of it.


----------



## shiben (Sep 26, 2011)

gafftaper said:


> Some of the really high end employers in the industry (Like the place vaguely mentioned) take secrecy VERY seriously. Saying where you work and giving advice gives the appearance that you are speaking on behalf of your employer. What if I start posting, "I work for Cirque/Disney/Caesar's Palace/Upstaging/NBC and this is how we do things"? It gives the appearance that the company is officially giving out advice via me. What happens if I give out bad advice? What happens if something goes wrong? What if I give away secrets about their best tricks? It get's really messy fast and these big employers don't like dealing with lawyers or messes. So they have employees sign non-disclosure agreements, promising to not publicly identify themselves as employees.
> 
> Unfortunately being vague is the only way some members can post here.


 
I know that. That just seemed a bit more vague than usual...


----------



## What Rigger? (Nov 23, 2011)

At the risk of necroposting: I was actually trying to keep it waaayyyyy vague for Derek's sake, not mine. It's okay to get myself strung up (pardon the pun), but not others.


----------



## museav (Nov 30, 2011)

Footer said:


> I'm also pretty positive its much cheaper to install a deluge system then a fire curtain, hince the reason we are seeing them more. The real question we have to ask is why are they going off when they should not? You hardly ever hear of buildings sprinklers systems going off when they shouldn't. Hell, the sprinkler in my apt right now has at least 25 years of dust on it.


I was involved in a major renovation of a large church in the area that had a dedicated audio equipment room located off stage where the microphone splits, the 'brains' for the Yamaha PM1D and all the audio DSP and distribution were housed. Just a couple days before the first service the painter was in that room doing touch up and apparently hit or leaned against the sprinkler head right over the racks, damaging it sufficiently that the wet pipe system proceeded to start dumping water all over the racks. Two things saved them, sequenced power switching at the distribution panel with remote operation so they could power down at the panel from another location and the racks were on 2x4s for electrical isolation, which kept everything up high enough that the several inches of standing water did not directly affect the gear.

Surprisingly, they pulled everything out, opened it up and carefully dried it over the next few days and it actually worked for their first few services, although it was then all replaced due to the potential long term effects.


----------



## ruinexplorer (Dec 1, 2011)

I worked in a house that had a fire curtain. However, the house had an adjustable proscenium so they added a sprinkler system at the limit of the opening of the walls. Needless to say, they did not install a very solid stop point for the walls and at one point, one of the technicians was opening the wall a bit too fast, broke past the stop block and the sprinkler system provided the stopping point. Of course, the wall had now jumped the track and could not be pulled back away while the now broken sprinkler heads were spraying water. Fortunately (?), the sprinkler heads were placed in such a way that the majority of the water sprayed into the house. The house of this theater was also a flexible space, with the majority of the seats being on platforms which could be removed so that the theater could also be set up as a thrust, round, or cabaret style. So all of the seats/platforms had to be removed to fully clean the theater. The show did not go on as scheduled.


----------



## derekleffew (Mar 14, 2012)

From â€˜Evitaâ€™ to resume show after second Broadway preview canceled due to Â water damage mishapÂ  - NY Daily News :

> Don’t rain on me Argentina.


----------



## rochem (Mar 15, 2012)

derekleffew said:


> From â€˜Evitaâ€™ to resume show after second Broadway preview canceled due to Â*water damage mishapÂ* - NY Daily News :



I meant to post about this earlier, but I forgot to do so. A good friend of mine is an electrician on the show, but as of Tuesday night when I last talked to him, he didn't actually know what caused it. Anyone know?


----------

