# Using 208V on NEMA 5-15



## lightingguybychoice (Jan 19, 2012)

Hey Guys, at my company we use a lot of Leds and we send our Leds to a lot of different people. These LEDs are Auto Sensing 120/208 units. We are currently sending them with either power-con female to male edison or upc to male edison. Here is my questions. I would say that 90% of the guys we use will run 208v on multi to a 6- Nema 5-15 125v rated edison plugs and not having any issues. I know this should be bad but I cant come up with a good reason on what will/could happen to make my company spend thousands of dollars on the cable and ends needed to make these L6-20. I had a conversation with our safety and risk guy and he said here was more concern with amps that volts and isn't worried...I know the danger of plugging in 120v fixtures on 208v...Pop! I need to collect as much info as I can so I can tell my company why they should spend the dough...or am I worrying about nothing? Can you guys give my any good advice?


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## TimMiller (Jan 20, 2012)

It's in violation with the nec. If a fire marshall or some other inspector sees this he will freak out. Besides the danger say someone plugged in a device that was improperly wired and fries themselves? There are lots of people who see a plug and think they can just plug into it. It's typically one of those things that everyone thinks is ok until someone gets hurt.


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## n1ist (Jan 20, 2012)

I agree with Tim. 

From a purely electrical standpoint, it will work (there's no mechanical difference between a 5-15 and a 6-15, or even the 20A varietes other than the orientation of the pins for most manufacturers).

From a legal, safety, and common sense standpoint, don't do it. Even more so if you are leasing them to people outside your company.

If you can live with the 10A current limit, you could use IEC C14 connectors on the fixture (like the ones on a PC power supply) and send them out with whatever power cord you need. Those connectors are rated 125v/250v, and if someone ever loses a power cord, it's easy to find a spare lying around.

/mike


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## STEVETERRY (Jan 20, 2012)

lightingguybychoice said:


> Hey Guys, at my company we use a lot of Leds and we send our Leds to a lot of different people. These LEDs are Auto Sensing 120/208 units. We are currently sending them with either power-con female to male edison or upc to male edison. Here is my questions. I would say that 90% of the guys we use will run 208v on multi to a 6- Nema 5-15 125v rated edison plugs and not having any issues. I know this should be bad but I cant come up with a good reason on what will/could happen to make my company spend thousands of dollars on the cable and ends needed to make these L6-20. I had a conversation with our safety and risk guy and he said here was more concern with amps that volts and isn't worried...I know the danger of plugging in 120v fixtures on 208v...Pop! I need to collect as much info as I can so I can tell my company why they should spend the dough...or am I worrying about nothing? Can you guys give my any good advice?


 
From NEC section 406.4(F):
*
F) Noninterchangeable Types.* Receptacles connected to circuits that have different voltages, frequencies, or types of current (ac or dc) on the same premises shall be of such design that the attachment plugs used on these circuits are not interchangeable. 

That means you cannot do what you propose.

ST


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## Footer (Jan 20, 2012)

STEVETERRY said:


> From NEC section 406.4(F):
> *
> F) Noninterchangeable Types.* Receptacles connected to circuits that have different voltages, frequencies, or types of current (ac or dc) on the same premises shall be of such design that the attachment plugs used on these circuits are not interchangeable.
> 
> ...


 
Steve, are socapex exempt or do we just look the other way?

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk


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## lightingguybychoice (Jan 20, 2012)

Hey Guys, Thanks for the replies.Here is another point I like to make. We don't deal with the fire marshall a lot. We do conventions and exhibits that typically the Fire Marshall is more concern with the seating arrangement rather then what voltage a plug is running. I know the FM should be but it rarely happens. My company stance is that we send these fixtures out to be ran at 110v only and its the ME's job to make sure this is so, my point is the we know people are not doing that and should I(or the company) have adapters that can run 208v sent with the fixtures. I think you can step down in voltage but never up. My solution would be to send these fixture out with a 208v rated plug and if they need to run 110v on them we send adapters to do so. I know other companies send similar fixture out with a 240v StagePin, this is even a bigger mistake in my eyes than edison because I have seen people plug LEKO's(ers) and other conventional fixtures into a stage pin fan out thinking it was 110v more than someone plugging into a marked or taped off edison. I really want some thing I can take to my bosses and say we have a problem and it would be wise to spend the money on these because...


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## derekleffew (Jan 20, 2012)

lightingguybychoice said:


> ... These LEDs are Auto Sensing 120/208 units. We are currently sending them with either power-con female to male edison or upc to male edison. ...


So the fixtures come with either panel mount male PowerCON or panel mount male UPC [IEC 60320-1 (C14)] power inlet s, and you/your shop supply an adapter to get to male 5-15 P? Supplying an L6-20 P adapter will enable the client to use the industry-standard (for 200-250V) L6-20 break-out.

Almost all auto-ranging equipment that I've seen comes as above (PowerCON or UPC), OR, if it has a cord, comes with bare end to put the onus of the correct mains connector onto the consumer/end user.
The first "5" in NEMA 5-15 designates it as a maximum 125V connector. End of story.

Another point for debate: Some feel that a 5-15 to L6-20 adapter is acceptable, but an L6-20 to 5-15 is not acceptable. Why might that be?


lightingguybychoice said:


> ...My company stance is that we send these fixtures out to be ran at 110v only and its the ME's job to make sure this is so, ...


And from an equipment owner's standpoint, that's perfectly valid reasoning. It's unlikely you'll come up with a persuasive argument to spend money based on "but some in the field, over whom we have no control, are breaking the rules." 

I suppose if you receive a shop order for LED fixtures, a 208V ML PD, and Edison break-outs, you might question or caution the user, but how far should a rental shop go to ensure 
1) The equipment will not be damaged, 
2) All life-safety codes are being followed ?


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## lightingguybychoice (Jan 20, 2012)

I was taught it was better to step down from a NEMA 6 to a NEMA 5 if they are using the correct voltage. Kinda like the Rigging principle of "weakest link" but the more I read and study the more unsure I become...


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## porkchop (Jan 20, 2012)

Since you're sending out fixtures that will work perfectly well at a voltage appropriate for the supplied cabling I doubt that you will find a convincing reason for the company to switch over to 208V cabling. Likely they'll say it's the renters responsibility to use them properly. What you can do is show that a lot of your equipment is being used at 208V so any future purchases should be specified for 208V. It's a long term solution and doesn't really help the legal/safety issues going on currently, but it is something to make you feel a little better.


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## JD (Jan 20, 2012)

Kind of like feeding boiling hot water to a drinking fountain. You make certain assumptions when you see a 5-15. 

Soco at 208 is common, so are 5-15 breakouts for Soco, so it's easy to see why it happens. Still, the liability factor alone should stop you from using the practice. 

If something does go wrong, and the equipment is configured in violation of NEC, the court decision is all but predetermined.


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## STEVETERRY (Jan 20, 2012)

Footer said:


> Steve, are socapex exempt or do we just look the other way?
> 
> Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk


 
They are not exempt. Other than that, Senator, I have no knowledge of this issue.

ST


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## lightingguybychoice (Jan 20, 2012)

Thanks For Advice Guys, This is going to be a work in progress but we will get there...I hope


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## mstaylor (Jan 22, 2012)

Would the way to limit liability be to ask when writing the order, "Are you running 110v or 208v? Do you need the heavier cables?" Then if they do something different then it's on them.


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## JD (Jan 22, 2012)

mstaylor said:


> Would the way to limit liability be to ask when writing the order, "Are you running 110v or 208v? Do you need the heavier cables?" Then if they do something different then it's on them.


 
More of an issue with the breakout connectors then the cable. Maybe a hold harmless rider that indicates that the 5-15 connectors are rated for 125 volt usage, and that you are not liable for misuse, operation outside of specifications, or outside NEC compliance by the customer.


STEVETERRY said:


> They are not exempt. Other than that, Senator, I have no knowledge of this issue.
> 
> ST



Very interesting point. Soco is often used to distribute 208 to movers, and at the same time in the same location, 120 to conventionals. No one would want to double their inventory with a second "set" of Soco that has some variation in the connector. Yet, I am sure more then one costly goof-up has occurred over the years. I often wondered if a pin 19 plug would be the answer. (Ex- Soco used for 208 would have a plastic cap in that location and the pin missing on the male.) A "208" male would still be able to be plugged into 120, but a 120 male could not be plugged into 208. Remove the plastic pin 19 plug and you have your 120 back again.


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## derekleffew (Jan 22, 2012)

JD said:


> ... Yet, I am sure more then one costly goof-up has occurred over the years. ...


Raise your hand if you have seen/done it.  Once, a Par-Bar of HPLs, no biggie. Another time, six 2K Fresnels, expensive and rare(r) CYX lamps. "I told *you* to label the cable." "No, *I* told _you_ to label the cable." Guess the cable didn't get labeled.
See also the thread http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/lighting-electrics/25700-i-messed-up.html . 
Oh, and there was one show where we kept repeatedly blowing Mac2K line fuses, because we unknowingly were running them at 120V, not noticing the distinction between "120/208*V*" and "120/208*Y*" on the distro's faceplate.


1. The proprietary to PRG, S400 cabling system is well beyond what JD proposes. Although it doesn't use Socapex (the cable carries Ethernet as well as power), a special circuit senses the type of break-out box and will not pass power if connected to the wrong source.

2. Some have proposed an alternate pin-out for 208V, but it has not been adopted by many.

derekleffew said:


> Thanks Randy. I notice the [Strand] datasheet says:
> 
> > LightRack modules feature dual socapex
> > outputs to connect quickly to your rig.
> ...




rschwimmer said:


> 1 1-LOAD L1 A
> 2 2-LOAD L1 A
> 3 1-LOAD L2 B
> 4 2-LOAD L2 B
> ...


 

derekleffew said:


> An "industry-standard" 208V break-out is wired identically to the 120V version; the only thing that changes is the six line connectors, i.e.:
> 
> Pin# Ckt# Use: Phase:
> 1 1-LOAD L1 A
> ...


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## derekleffew (Jan 23, 2012)

STEVETERRY said:


> They are not exempt. Other than that, Senator, I have no knowledge of this issue.


Permission to treat the witness as hostile, your honor?


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## jstandfast (Jan 23, 2012)

In my immediate AO, at two different venues, one can find the lowly 19 pin connector used by two different departments at three different voltages.


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## ship (Jan 24, 2012)

Best to be sure of the problems of what you are asking about an electical problem on before having that problem. Not an overall problem but details in why it could be fine.

"We are currently sending them with either power-con female to male edison or upc to male edison. Here is my questions. I would say that 90% of the guys we use will run 208v on multi to a 6- Nema 5-15 125v rated edison plugs and not having any issues."

Of which you state... there is very many problems in understanding problems on many levels. Assuming electrically fixture switching - fixture don't care what UPC or Edison power feed it has in voltage - what ever UPC is in I have no idea, but in having a problem a say 6-NEMA 515 125v Rated Edison plug... that's a mis-statement in a very much type way. 

Sorry if harsh seeming, but the best way to make a defense about the misuse of your gear is out of an educated position on it. I'm confused about your weighing pints. Sorry but if of help, just have no idea of what your problems are.

Later posts seem to assume a lot.

So if a Stage pin is dual rated in voltage, is it not the perfect go-between for a power switching thingie in doing 120 or 208v than doing say Edison on it? Power supply is power switching, think I read a problem with this stage pin as a plug the adaptors a problem with.... Plug in what you want to them in voltage. What's the problem in everything rated they plug into as adaptor?

Still not cocepting this problem - sorry, perhaps explain further to help my simple stated self.

"And from an equipment owner's standpoint, that's perfectly valid reasoning. It's unlikely you'll come up with a persuasive argument to spend money based on "but some in the field, over whom we have no control, are breaking the rules." "

Are we really talking breaking the rules on LED fixtures for amperage in type of plug used I think L6-15 verses L6-20? Is a company breaking the "rules" in using a L6-15 plug for a far less than 1800w load at 208v load for LED gear? This I believe is the discussion in not spending money.

At some point, I'll credit companies that went 208v 20A sockets for their outlets. Very useful given the last ten years worth of lighting gear in load on them. Too cheap and standing in the way?

Sorry, some choices between 1975 and 1999 when I joined with them, were other than I might have as a Master Carpenter in changing one's fields over the next few years of making my own mistakes and good ideas in the next ten years of my own reign for blame in all intensive purposes. Breaking the rules.. yep at times, and setting them also for many too.

Way before I started working where I did, they went L6-15 as their outlet, that with L5-15 and Veam CIR of many pin configurations and VSC, Pyle National 16 and 37 pin in addition to other types like Soco #337 and Creep 19 pin as another style... want to really know how many styles of plug has been in use since like 1975 when companies “too cheap” to change say their entire inventory to something and given LED probably now isn’t worth changing at this point....?

That’s a different topic. Making gear safe is different than a concept of gee, we should be L6-20r instead of L6-15R for receptacle in assuming all gear currently is going better and higher in wattage, but all up until now is less than like 1800w in loading mostly.

Suspect this is a topic I would support a few years ago in why didn’t management switch to 20A outlets on like a few very much $$$ K verses gear, cable an outlets.

Now it would seem mostly a moot point in very high wattage gear mostly suited for L6-30 outlets or otherwise much LED gear that’s low in wattage thus the L6-15R is really useful for a duplex outlelt.

Sorry but I’m just not seeing any realistic thing as a problem here. Again sorry in thinking by mistake, the L6-15 set of plugs is perhaps the best or at least for now not the worst choice.

On a question of what one sees... sorry overall but didn’t see problems over dogma in lack of what one wants to see over what is fine to use. Sorry if this causes a problem to you and above, expand knowledge, and or better way to fight the various battles that often I’m all for.

L6-15 verses L6-20.... believe as more and more LED gear comes to the market, the L6-15 will be best for it in the end. Yea... you had some 2,500w moving lights populalr for a summer... where are they now? In the mean time, you get crappy 1.5Kw movers popular over the 1.2Kw ones. 1.2Kw ones and the 700w versions were and are a good selling pint for the 20 amp outlets.

Problem is most 15A industry outlets are 20 A breakered so they cover the same gear, and less and less gear going out on shows isn't LED.

Moot point mostly overall.


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## jroman7 (Jul 2, 2012)

So, I understand all the legal reasons, but I have a place where I only have 5-15 plugs on all the lights, they are not accessible to anybody besides me. Would it be bad to run 208V through a 5-15 wired system? I ask because we have a combination of Mac 250 Wash fixtures and Chauvet Colorado's but because of the cable run and the amount of fixtures, I am getting 103V and 20A draw currently. I want to lower the amperage and run everything at 208V, but I don't want to spend the money and time to swap out connectors. We would only be running this way for 2-3 weeks until we change the setup and then I can go back to 120V. Thoughts?


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## Footer (Jul 2, 2012)

jroman7 said:


> So, I understand all the legal reasons, but I have a place where I only have 5-15 plugs on all the lights, they are not accessible to anybody besides me. Would it be bad to run 208V through a 5-15 wired system? I ask because we have a combination of Mac 250 Wash fixtures and Chauvet Colorado's but because of the cable run and the amount of fixtures, I am getting 103V and 20A draw currently. I want to lower the amperage and run everything at 208V, but I don't want to spend the money and time to swap out connectors. We would only be running this way for 2-3 weeks until we change the setup and then I can go back to 120V. Thoughts?



Nope. Never. 

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2


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## n1ist (Jul 2, 2012)

Electrically, it would work OK; it would, however, as you point out, be a NEC violation and a potential safety hazard. If you do decide to go ahead with it. I would tape the plugs into the receptacles and put VERY conspicuous tags on all connections to make it clear to anyone (don't assume that you are the only one to access things, and that you will remember in the heat of an emergency repatch) that those outlets are 208v and should not be touched.
/mike


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## Chris15 (Jul 2, 2012)

Electrically it would NOT work OK.

You are talking about using a connector rated for a maximum voltage of 125V at 208V.
As I understand it, the working voltage for a connector is determined working back from the dieelectric breakdown voltage of the connector as established by destructive lab testing.
When you are working at 1.66x the rated voltage, you have severely compromised the safety factors that are built in to establishing the maximum voltage voltage and run a much heightened risk of a voltage fluctuation causing the connector to melt.

You might be lucky and not kill or injure yourself or others. But the odds are that something will go wrong, hopefully it will only be connectors melting together...


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## STEVETERRY (Jul 2, 2012)

n1ist said:


> Electrically, it would work OK; it would, however, as you point out, be a NEC violation and a potential safety hazard. If you do decide to go ahead with it. I would tape the plugs into the receptacles and put VERY conspicuous tags on all connections to make it clear to anyone (don't assume that you are the only one to access things, and that you will remember in the heat of an emergency repatch) that those outlets are 208v and should not be touched.
> /mike



Wait..I'm confused.

Why are we giving advice that amounts to "What you can get away with"?

There is no good reason to allow improper use of a connector at the wrong voltage. It is a major safety hazard that might backfire with significant life-safety consequences.

The correct answer is "Do not do this, under any circumstances". Find the money and time to install the correct connectors. Period.

ST


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## n1ist (Jul 2, 2012)

In most cases, I would agree. I would NOT do this. Howevern there's not much difference between a 5-15 and a 6-15 connector other than the orientation of the pins; I have some that state "250V" on them. Dielectric breakdown on a Hubbell HBL5266C (the first one I pulled the specs on) is 2kV so that's not an issue. As long as the voltage is less than the breakdown voltage it will not cause any melting (excessive current can). 

It is a NEC violation to use a product in violation of its listing, so it would not be legal to use a 5-15 at 208v. The major risk is that someone would plug a 110v load into the 208v circuit, which would cause serious safety (fire, shock, or electrocution) issues.

/mike


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## MNicolai (Jul 2, 2012)

You shouldn't be pushing your cables that hard to begin with. It's one thing if you were running a 20A tungsten load on a 100% rated breaker, it's another if you're running arc sources at 20A. The inrush current when you strike the lamp sources, if fixtures were struck simultaneously, could get ugly for you.

I'm curious which gauge your cables are and what the run length is. On 12AWG cable, you can run a 20A load at a 135' cable length and still have 109V. On 14AWG cable at that same length, which shouldn't be used on a 20A load anyway, you would get 103V due to voltage drop.

That all depends on what's in the walls though (or in your power distro depending on what your setup is). If your circuit wiring goes 100' back to your branch panel, that wiring distance also gets included in the calculation for how long of a cable run you can do. In this example, that would mean with 12AWG in the wall for 100', you could only do a cable run at 12AWG for an additional 35' before you would drop below 110V on a 20A load.






You're trying to solve the wrong problem by changing connectors. You should be using lower gauge power cable or dividing your load across multiple cable runs and ideally more than 16A on a 20A circuit breaker unless you know for certain it is rated for a 100% load.

Mind you if you're using a residential-grade extension cable, it could very likely be 16AWG and be especially unsuited for a 20A load, making the voltage drop across your cable even worse.


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## jroman7 (Jul 3, 2012)

Mike,

I do agree, the bigger issue is just the load. This is a facility designed for 100% loads, everything is 12/3 wire in good shape, it just has 5-15 connectors on everything.

I did end up just running another circuit to the system and breaking it in half. The distance from the breaker panel to the stage is about 100', it just gets broken up so much once it reaches the lights I think all the connections are causing the voltage drop along with the cable length. When there is no load, i am getting 115V at the fixtures, but when everything is on and loaded it drops way to low. 

On a side note, what app are you using for those calculations?


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## MNicolai (Jul 3, 2012)

The app is "VoltageDrop". Don't remember if I paid a couple bucks for it or if it was free, but I'm sure there are more than a couple similar apps in the app store as well.


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## jhochb (Jul 3, 2012)

Good Morning

I use LDCalculator lite. It's not a phone app but it gives you more stuff then you knew you needed.
It is dated as far as the fixture library goes but it has a section to build your own.

Paul Pelletier - LD Calculator

the short list:
Ohm's law
Voltage drop
Phase Ballancing
DMX / Patch list
Truck Pack
Rigging
load list




I used to be a roadie, then I took an arrow to the knee.


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