# LED Source Four



## chausman (Mar 10, 2012)

I keep seeing people mention the LED S4, and recommending it, but where are you getting information? People where mentioning specs, and how it would compare, but all I know is that it looks similar to the current s4, and has a few key features mentioned in Fred's keynote. Where is this information coming from? It's not on ETC's website that I can see. Anyone?

Chase


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## MPowers (Mar 10, 2012)

There was a demo unit at the ETC booth at LDI. We are one of a number of ETC dealers that have been able to have a public demo of a unit. I'm sure there will be several at Long Beach. I "think" they are planning an official release this summer.


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## ScottT (Mar 10, 2012)

I saw one yesterday, but never got any specifications for it.


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## bishopthomas (Mar 11, 2012)

The only question I have is the obvious one: How much?


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## derekleffew (Mar 11, 2012)

bishopthomas said:


> The only question I have is the obvious one: How much?


Hard to price a product isn't on the market yet, but I believe someone said MSRP $2500. (Which coincidentally happens to compare directly with the Coemar LEDko, likely its closest competitor.)

See also this post.


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## Tex (Mar 11, 2012)

For those who have seen it, how does it compare in performance to the Aledin 630SX?


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## CrazyTechie (Mar 11, 2012)

In PLSN's January 2012 magazine there were a few pages dedicated to LED Lekos and Profile Fixtures. There is some information about the Source4 LED.


> ETC Source Four LED
> 
> LED Colors: X7 color system, ROAGCBI
> 
> ...


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## ElectroCarp (Mar 11, 2012)

Got to play with one yesterday and get some (more or less) hands on time with it. ETC wont release a price for it until around the end of the month and the guy from ETC could not say how much. Though it will come in three configurations. The entire instrument, one minus the barrel and a version that is just the body. Its a slick fixture but kinda hard to explain how it holds up to a previous 575w S4. They can punch deep saturated colors better then the previous ones but when it comes to pure white its about a 2 to 1 so not as bright as we al want them yet but that is not to say that it is not a wonderfully performing fixture. chausman, ill post more in depth details about it if you'd like.


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## chausman (Mar 11, 2012)

ElectroCarp said:


> . chausman, ill post more in depth details about it if you'd like.



Only if you have the time and want to. I didn't know it was at any dealers. I guess I need to go call a few people now...


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## ScottT (Mar 11, 2012)

ElectroCarp said:


> Got to play with one yesterday and get some (more or less) hands on time with it.



Does anyone know how many of these there are? I was told at SETC there is only one...

By the way, the ETC guys aren't joking when they say they sleep with the S4 LED - it goes in their hotel room with them!


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## DavidNorth (Mar 11, 2012)

ScottT said:


> Does anyone know how many of these there are? I was told at SETC there is only one...



There are many more than one. You'd be surprised.

David


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## ElectroCarp (Mar 11, 2012)

They are not at dealers yet, the ETC guys say that its a "prototype" but a fully functioning one that they will be putting on the market in a few weeks.


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## ElectroCarp (Mar 12, 2012)

chausman said:


> Only if you have the time and want to. I didn't know it was at any dealers. I guess I need to go call a few people now...



The post above covers most of the basics. It does have that beautiful 7 color LED palate that we all know and love. A lot of people's major concerns is how does it hold up against the traditional S4s? well they are not yet bright enough to beat out a 575 on pure white but since you don't need to drop gel for color you're not cutting down your output from the transmission rate of the gel. So it can punch deeper colors better then previously. Also I believe the ETC guy mentioned that they will be releasing an LED version that is just white LEDs to which you can obviously drop gel into.

Now for gobos.... The only issue with them that is when you run the barrel one way you do get a slight RGB.... whatever halo (run it the other way and its fine i forget which way does what). But they have plastic like diffusion (heavier then typical gel) with a 95% transmission rate that you can drop in that eliminates this problem and since the gate is so cool I wonder if you could indeed just drop a regular diffusion like an R100 or something similar. 

Hope this helps a little bit and answers some questions.


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## Esoteric (Mar 12, 2012)

ElectroCarp said:


> The post above covers most of the basics. It does have that beautiful 7 color LED palate that we all know and love. A lot of people's major concerns is how does it hold up against the traditional S4s? well they are not yet bright enough to beat out a 575 on pure white but since you don't need to drop gel for color you're not cutting down your output from the transmission rate of the gel. So it can punch deeper colors better then previously. Also I believe the ETC guy mentioned that they will be releasing an LED version that is just white LEDs to which you can obviously drop gel into.
> 
> Now for gobos.... The only issue with them that is when you run the barrel one way you do get a slight RGB.... whatever halo (run it the other way and its fine i forget which way does what). But they have plastic like diffusion (heavier then typical gel) with a 95% transmission rate that you can drop in that eliminates this problem and since the gate is so cool I wonder if you could indeed just drop a regular diffusion like an R100 or something similar.
> 
> Hope this helps a little bit and answers some questions.



The only problem with the dffuser is that it is HEAVY diffusion. I would probably use a traditional diffusion. But at this point, from what I have seen of it, it falls in with all the other LEDkos. It would be great for a high side light, or a saturate pattern wash, but for the primary use of an ERS (front light) it just doesn't have the punch yet for much more than a 20' throw (and that would be pushing it).

Mike


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## rochem (Mar 12, 2012)

ElectroCarp said:


> ...Also I believe the ETC guy mentioned that they will be releasing an LED version that is just white LEDs *to which you can obviously drop gel into.*



(Emphasis mine)

Is this your assumption, or did he actually say that? Even a 7-color LED source doesn't have anywhere near the full-spectrum CRI of an incandescent lamp, and the colors would be completely off. More than likely, it would require a new line of gel products to be made specifically for the S4 LED, and even so, the available gel colors would be quite limited and would have drastically different transmission rates. Did they have a plan to deal with this?


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## ElectroCarp (Mar 12, 2012)

I honestly cant remember 100% but i thought I remembered the guy mentioning something like that. If so it might not be until the second gen. when they should be brighter. I could be completely wrong but for some reason that was part of what I thought he said so don't quote me on it haha


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## icewolf08 (Mar 12, 2012)

Here is some info on the LED source four:View attachment Source Four LED.pdf


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## SteveB (Mar 12, 2012)

rochem said:


> (Emphasis mine)
> 
> Is this your assumption, or did he actually say that? Even a 7-color LED source doesn't have anywhere near the full-spectrum CRI of an incandescent lamp, and the colors would be completely off. More than likely, it would require a new line of gel products to be made specifically for the S4 LED, and even so, the available gel colors would be quite limited and would have drastically different transmission rates. Did they have a plan to deal with this?



This is true of any lighting fixture that uses other then incandescent. I would be surprised if the color media manufacturers would make a specific line of filters as in reality a filter does just that, filters. You can't put back what ain't there to begin with !.

The spiky CRI's of LED's are certainly going to be a challenge for a designer to learn how the assorted filters function in an LED white output only fixtures. Just like you learn how they respond in a 5600K xenon follow spot, it's going to be all trial and error. 

One good question is how long is it going to take the pre-viz companies to add the LED fixtures into the data files.


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## Pie4Weebl (Mar 12, 2012)

icewolf08 said:


> Here is some info on the LED source four:View attachment 6580



I like that the answer to the question "how soon will it be sold" is "lens tube sold separately"


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## derekleffew (Mar 12, 2012)

Pie4Weebl said:


> I like that the answer to the question "how soon will it be sold" is "lens tube sold separately"


The question is "How Will It Be Sold?", not "How soon...?" Still, this page seems particularly indicative that the PDF is from a PowerPoint presentation, probably to educate dealers and not intended for the end-user.


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## chausman (Mar 12, 2012)

derekleffew said:


> The question is "How Will It Be Sold?", not "How soon...?" Still, this page seems particularly indicative that the PDF is from a PowerPoint presentation, probably to educate dealers and not intended for the end-user.



I thought the wording seemed kind of "awkward" for something intended for users.


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## icewolf08 (Mar 12, 2012)

Here is more info:View attachment S4_LED_vPRELIM.PDF


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## rphilip (Mar 13, 2012)

Does any one know what the comment about "Add S to model number to specify if the fixture should ship with the shutter panel" means?

Thanks,

Philip


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## MNicolai (Mar 13, 2012)

rphilip said:


> Does any one know what the comment about "Add S to model number to specify if the fixture should ship with the shutter panel" means?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Philip




It means that it ships in two configurations. One being without the barrel and another with it. So let's say you order 10 of these and intend to use them on existing fixtures you already own. You wouldn't need to buy more barrels with the shutter/iris/gobo mechanisms -- you already own that. But let's say you're buying these to add on top of your existing inventory -- then you would need those barrels with the shutter assemblies and you'd also need lens tubes to go with them.


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## coasterboard (Mar 13, 2012)

Any word on Lumens OTF?


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## derekleffew (Mar 13, 2012)

coasterboard said:


> Any word on Lumens OTF?


No; and if I were ETC, I'd never publish such figures, ever. Comparisons of LED sources, to traditional sources as well as to each other, is so problematic as to make virtually all numbers meaningless. For just one of the issues, see http://www.mikewoodconsulting.com/articles/Protocol Fall 2008 - Color Prejudice.pdf and http://www.mikewoodconsulting.com/articles/Protocol Spring 2011 - Nice Bright Colors.pdf . In fact, I encourage everyone to read ALL of Mike Wood's excellent articles at Articles .


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## rphilip (Mar 13, 2012)

derekleffew said:


> No; and if I were ETC, I'd never publish such figures, ever. Comparisons of LED sources, to traditional sources as well as to each other, is so problematic as to make virtually all numbers meaningless. ...


I agree with you in a perfect world with easy demo units avialbe in every last corner of the world, ... except that's not the world we live in. 

There are times when some times you have to puchase with out the oppurtunity for a demo, based on spec sheets and other people's expecience alone. (Which is why I really like CB)

I agree that a single lumens OTF number makes a poor comparison. But I think that there does need to be some small number of standard compairisons where 2-3 numbers can give you some meaning full compison. Something along the lines of the second article you linked from Mike Wood seems like a reasonable start where he "settles" on 2 numbers, Effacacy (lumens/watt) (I'd argure for pure lumens however), + Color Ratio.

It seems like I remember an ETC document showing the measured beam/field lumens compairing one of there Selador products with a S4 par of similar beam width gelled with ~10 "standard" gels. This is an alternate approach but is subject to some problems identified in the second article derek linked to.

Philip


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## Footer (Mar 14, 2012)

derekleffew said:


> No; and if I were ETC, I'd never publish such figures, ever. Comparisons of LED sources, to traditional sources as well as to each other, is so problematic as to make virtually all numbers meaningless. For just one of the issues, see http://www.mikewoodconsulting.com/articles/Protocol Fall 2008 - Color Prejudice.pdf and http://www.mikewoodconsulting.com/articles/Protocol Spring 2011 - Nice Bright Colors.pdf . In fact, I encourage everyone to read ALL of Mike Wood's excellent articles at Articles .



This is very true for the 7 color models, but the two "white" models should have full specs that are comparable to what we traditionally see.


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## shiben (Mar 14, 2012)

Footer said:


> This is very true for the 7 color models, but the two "white" models should have full specs that are comparable to what we traditionally see.



Right but the only comparison could possibly be on how bright it is. Not a single other thing is really comparable between units, so why not come up with some new way of measuring effectiveness to take a spiky curve and other issues into effect?


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## MNicolai (Mar 14, 2012)

shiben said:


> why not come up with some new way of measuring effectiveness to take a spiky curve and other issues into effect?



Once you figure out the mathematical formulas for that, let the rest of the industry know and if it's any good we'll give you an award.


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## shiben (Mar 14, 2012)

MNicolai said:


> Once you figure out the mathematical formulas for that, let the rest of the industry know and if it's any good we'll give you an award.



Thats not really my forte, but my point stands: LEDs are not directly comparable to a broad spectrum source, as is pretty clearly defined by the articles Derek posted. Saying oh its x lumens/foot candles is not quite the same as saying "it will bring out the x colors in this dress this way", or "with x gel, it will be this bright as opposed to say 10% transmission".


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## chausman (Mar 14, 2012)

If you haven't seen it yet...


Lafalot said:


> Secondly, as for the Source Four LED.
> ETC will be showing it on the Expo floor at USITT.
> Regional offices now have demo units. Contact your regional office or a dealer for a demo.


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## venuetech (Mar 19, 2012)

*ETC introduces Source Four LED*

Industry-favorite spotlight now in high-efficiency LED version

The world’s most popular line of profile spotlights just got bigger. ETC’s Source Four® started with the HPL lamp. Then the Source Four HID was added to the range. And now there’s the ETC Source Four LED, featuring brilliant colors, low heat, and even more energy-saving efficiency.

Lighting solutions for Theatre, Film & Television Studios and Architectural spaces : ETC



The new Source Four LED is expected to be available to ship in April.

how did this end up here when it was posted on the "news" board?


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## bishopthomas (Mar 19, 2012)

*Re: ETC introduces Source Four LED*

Still no price?


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## chausman (Mar 19, 2012)

bishopthomas said:


> Still no price?



I remember seeing $2500 (MSRP) with no lens. I cant find the document that said that though on my phone. 


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## Techfiend (Mar 19, 2012)

"The US list price is $2575 for each..." -Electronic Theatre Controls | Facebook


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## zmb (Mar 20, 2012)

Not as bad as I thought it was going to be for all the neat technology crammed in there. Now when can someone compare the warm white to regular source four and see how they compare?


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## rochem (Mar 20, 2012)

zmb said:


> Not as bad as I thought it was going to be for all the neat technology crammed in there. Now when can someone compare the warm white to regular source four and see how they compare?



They're officially launching the product at USITT next week in Long Beach. I'm sure they'll be shooting it out against traditional Source Fours (dang, we're gonna hafta start calling them "old style" Source Fours now, aren't we... ), and I'll be sure to take a bunch of photos and report back while I'm there. That said, I know the Tungsten version was designed to hang in a rig right next to Source Fours, so I'd expect that the light output is almost identical - and from what I've heard from others who have already seen the product, it's almost impossible to distinguish the two.


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## bishopthomas (Mar 20, 2012)

Twenty Five Hundred Dollars!? No freakin' way is this going to catch on with anyone other than the most highest of high end theatres and rental houses. Twenty grand for 8 lights? Sorry, but a lunar space station will catch on first...


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## BGW (Mar 20, 2012)

^ No kidding. I guess I can see it because of the longevity and performance. I always thought regular S4s were a tad overpriced anyway. You must pay for quality, and you get what you pay for with ETC.


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## bishopthomas (Mar 20, 2012)

I was thinking $1000. I was prepared to pay four digits for a white only light (exactly a Source Four but an LED), but that's absurd. It's just not going to happen. What kind of total wattage are we looking at? There's really not much information out there for a product released in a few short weeks.


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## MNicolai (Mar 20, 2012)

For $2500, you don't need to buy gel, lamps, as much electricity, as many 12AWG power cables, expensive dimmer racks and wiring in the walls, dimmer modules, as huge of transformers. Not to mention you don't have to hang as many lights because you don't need three fixtures of different colors of gel covering the same spot in different colors for different times during the show.

As has long been the case with LED's retrofits will see little savings because they have already paid for most of the stuff that LEDs mean they no longer need.

New installs won't yet throw caution to the wind and drastically reduce the number of conventional circuits/fixtures they plan for, but as they do in years to come it'll make oodles more sense to build a hybrid lighting system -- for both practical and for financial reasons.


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## ElectroCarp (Mar 20, 2012)

rochem said:


> They're officially launching the product at USITT next week in Long Beach. I'm sure they'll be shooting it out against traditional Source Fours (dang, we're gonna hafta start calling them "old style" Source Fours now, aren't we... ), and I'll be sure to take a bunch of photos and report back while I'm there. That said, I know the Tungsten version was designed to hang in a rig right next to Source Fours, so I'd expect that the light output is almost identical - and from what I've heard from others who have already seen the product, it's almost impossible to distinguish the two.



Most of those speculations and comparison are explained at the beginning of this thread. They had one out at SETC this year and it was ahhmazing, though understandably it was not hung next to a traditional S4. But if they do have a side by side comparison there you should defiantly post pictures up here.


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## gafftaper (Mar 20, 2012)

A $2500 list means a street price of around $2000-$2500, depending on the quantity you buy, your dealer's buying power, and your relationship to the dealer.


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## bishopthomas (Mar 20, 2012)

MNicolai said:


> For $2500, you don't need to buy gel, lamps, as much electricity, as many 12AWG power cables, expensive dimmer racks and wiring in the walls, dimmer modules, as huge of transformers. Not to mention you don't have to hang as many lights because you don't need three fixtures of different colors of gel covering the same spot in different colors for different times during the show.



Yes, the standard argument for LED still exists. However, coverage is coverage, and if you need 24 fixtures to wash a stage then that's still 25 fixtures, whether they're LED or conventional. Trust me, I learned that common sense the hard way. Plus, as you know, the argument for no need to buy and install all the conventional accessories is only valid if this infrastructure does not already exist. Dimmer racks really aren't that expensive, at least not compared channel-channel next to the S4 LED. Keep in mind that we're talking TEN TIMES the price, not just 2-300%.


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## bishopthomas (Mar 20, 2012)

gafftaper said:


> A $2500 list means a street price of around $2000-$2500, depending on the quantity you buy, your dealer's buying power, and your relationship to the dealer.



Still not cheap. Still not attainable by most.

Please, someone tell me when they will be buying a stock of these lights... I doubt anyone here will be doing a refit any time soon.


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## rochem (Mar 20, 2012)

bishopthomas said:


> Still not cheap. Still not attainable by most.
> 
> Please, someone tell me when they will be buying a stock of these lights... I doubt anyone here will be doing a refit any time soon.



In the marketing materials they've released, they seem to be pushing pretty hard the idea that the LED Source Four can blend with existing rigs. In practice, I very much doubt that you can replace your DRoC frontlight area with a S4 LED and have nobody notice, but I'm sure you could hang a single S4 LED as a frontlight special and save on multiple instruments/a scroller/whatever. Also, if you compare that $2000-2500ish street price to the cost of a new Seachanger, the LED S4 is not all that much more. Both products are basically just color-changing source fours, but one has far less power consumption and far better color rendering. For a list of $1750 you can get a new tungsten seachanger without the Source Four attached, so you're looking at a minimum of $2000 for that anyway. I suspect that they're going to try to market this as an alternative to the Seachanger at first, because that seems to be pretty close to the price point.


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## len (Mar 20, 2012)

I think there is a market for this, but more so in the smaller concert, event and other places. Bringing in 4 - 10 ellipsoidals into a ballroom or a small concert stage is easy with shoebox dimmers, or straight into the wall. But 10 or 50 of them gets difficult. Dimmer racks, cabling, etc., is where prices skyrocket, not just because a dimmer rack is costly (it really isn't) but because the cost of temporarily installing one is high. Tie ins to the hotel service, labor to do so, feeder, etc. No thanks. 

Also, ETC knows they won't sell 50,000 of these the first month. They know the incandescent S4 is so entrenched (and its competitors) that the LED will take several years before it's considered standard, if ever. I think they're offering this because it's LED and the demand for anything with that engine is in demand. People (including myself) were very high on plasma sources a couple years ago, but that hasn't taken off yet, if it ever will. ETC knows they either need to drive the bandwagon or watch it leave without them.


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## zmb (Mar 20, 2012)

I'll be happy to win a Lustr one if there's going to be another contest.


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## BobHealey (Mar 20, 2012)

I wonder if it would be possible to drop gel (say R02 or R60) in front of the 3200K unit to blend it in with an existing rig, or if it would look completely wrong next to a HPL based unit with the same gel.


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## MNicolai (Mar 20, 2012)

BobHealey said:


> I wonder if it would be possible to drop gel (say R02 or R60) in front of the 3200K unit to blend it in with an existing rig, or if it would look completely wrong next to a HPL based unit with the same gel.



Practically speaking, why would you want to have the same gel in both? Would you interchange and mix 575w and 750w units to build your front warm wash?

We've got a rig of 40 Selador fixtures in the air, and the only reason we pit tungsten fixtures next to them is to compliment them. The only reason we have to ever hang fresnels again is 1) it's tradition and 2) if we need a bright no-color wash. Lumen for lumen, the Seladors have just about killed our reasons to own 2/3 of our fresnels, except we're a roadhouse so we need to have them when it's what touring groups ask for.

We would never try to build a lighting group out of different fixtures -- trying to mix Pearls with the appropriate gels and fresnels with those same gels.


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## Footer (Mar 20, 2012)

bishopthomas said:


> Still not cheap. Still not attainable by most.
> 
> Please, someone tell me when they will be buying a stock of these lights... I doubt anyone here will be doing a refit any time soon.



6 years ago the state did a top to bottom analysis of our building to bring it up to industry spec. About 3 million dollars of the 17 million dollar plan involved stage lighting. 2 million of that was simply dimming and the associated A/C infrastructure. If we use our current circuiting terminated to breaker panels, put in a DMX distribution network, get a new console, and replace 2/3's of our fixtures with these fixtures we could do the whole project for 1.5 million. We would not have to run a ton of new conduit, pull a ton of new power, and put in a ton more A/C. We would also not need as many fixtures which would lessen the strain on our grid (a real factor when your fly house is in a giant egg). It would decrease labor and production costs. Labor for swapping gel daily adds up quickly as well. Finally, fixture maintenance costs also have to be considered. Not having to stock lamps plus not having to pay someone to go and change that lamp is another consideration. Right now our dimming is a mixed bag 2.4k, 6k, and 12k dimmers. We have a total of 108 dimmers and over 400 fixtures in our rep plot. It would be nice to be able to control less then 5 fixtures at a time with one channel.

There is a large push inside the state to go green. They are putting in LED's just about everywhere they can. They are trying to shove LED houselights down our throats. National grid is giving the state a huge discount on any LED lighting. Obviously they have not done the retrofit that they wrote up plans for 6 years ago. However, adding both "cheaper" and "green" to the mix might make this a possibility.


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## BobHealey (Mar 20, 2012)

MNicolai said:


> Practically speaking, why would you want to have the same gel in both? Would you interchange and mix 575w and 750w units to build your front warm wash?
> 
> We've got a rig of 40 Selador fixtures in the air, and the only reason we pit tungsten fixtures next to them is to compliment them. The only reason we have to ever hang fresnels again is 1) it's tradition and 2) if we need a bright no-color wash. Lumen for lumen, the Seladors have just about killed our reasons to own 2/3 of our fresnels, except we're a roadhouse so we need to have them when it's what touring groups ask for.
> 
> We would never try to build a lighting group out of different fixtures -- trying to mix Pearls with the appropriate gels and fresnels with those same gels.



I'll never have the funds to do a wholesale replacement of the current collection with LED, but I could possibly sneak in 1-3 units/year which would replace say the downstage warm wash, and the upstage warm would still be R02 or R33 or whatever's appropriate on a GLA, GLH or EHD lamp (TBD, based on reaching a consensus on what is an acceptable maximum brightness, GLE/EHG/FEL/BTN/BVT are too bright).


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## MNicolai (Mar 20, 2012)

BobHealey said:


> I'll never have the funds to do a wholesale replacement of the current collection with LED, but I could possibly sneak in 1-3 units/year which would replace say the downstage warm wash, and the upstage warm would still be R02 or R33 or whatever's appropriate on a GLA, GLH or EHD lamp (TBD, based on reaching a consensus on what is an acceptable maximum brightness, GLE/EHG/FEL/BTN/BVT are too bright).



These fixtures probably aren't for you then. ETC's pretty good at staying consistent, but even they have had pretty major changes in their LED fixtures over the last year. Between their dissolution of the Vivid's to create the Vivid-R's, and the change from strip lights to more wash-like fixtures -- the markets changing quickly and in a way that no one company can have much control over. You may be buying 3 Source Four LED's next year and then a couple years later 3 Source Four LED-Super-Plus fixtures.

Don't try to make a 10-year plan for implementing any LED fixtures from any manufacturer because in 5 years there will likely be drastic differences in what's available on the market (and potentially what will no longer be available).


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## derekleffew (Mar 20, 2012)

Propaganda video at ETCVideoLibrary's Channel - YouTube :


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## jstroming (Mar 20, 2012)

I have already contacted my ETC dealer (4-wall) in order to purchase some units for comparison. He's telling me the same everyone else has heard, availability in 2-3 months.

This could have huge savings for me. My company is starting 2 new dance tours in the fall, and if I can send this show out with an entire LED rig instead of conventionals, I will be able to get by with a 100A service instead of our current 200A power service. Convention Center/Hotel power is EXPENSIVE (usually $1000/day for a 100A, $1500 for a 200A service in most convention centers & large hotels). Our events are 4 day shows, usually about 25 per tour. That's an average savings of $50,000 PER TOUR. We have 2 tours already out (30 cities each tour), and within one year the amount I would save in power costs would cover the cost of upgrading my conventionals to Source 4 LEDs.

Plus the fact that I dont need dimmers, wont need as much cabling....seems like a win/win situation for us.


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## shiben (Mar 21, 2012)

jstroming said:


> I have already contacted my ETC dealer (4-wall) in order to purchase some units for comparison. He's telling me the same everyone else has heard, availability in 2-3 months.
> 
> This could have huge savings for me. My company is starting 2 new dance tours in the fall, and if I can send this show out with an entire LED rig instead of conventionals, I will be able to get by with a 100A service instead of our current 200A power service. Convention Center/Hotel power is EXPENSIVE (usually $1000/day for a 100A, $1500 for a 200A service in most convention centers & large hotels). Our events are 4 day shows, usually about 25 per tour. That's an average savings of $50,000 PER TOUR. We have 2 tours already out (30 cities each tour), and within one year the amount I would save in power costs would cover the cost of upgrading my conventionals to Source 4 LEDs.
> 
> Plus the fact that I dont need dimmers, wont need as much cabling....seems like a win/win situation for us.



Exactly. This is what I think the LED S4 will be most useful for in the near term, shows where power is at a premium and the savings on it amount to enough to purchase the units. All the small dance shows I work on have the most atrocious cabling situation known to man... Making that better would be huge in my opinion.


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## bdkdesigns (Mar 21, 2012)

On ETC's facebook page, they posted a pic of it at Prolight+Sound. Looks like the 3 versions are side by side with a traditional mixed in. Can't wait for USITT!


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## derekleffew (Mar 21, 2012)

derekleffew said:


> coasterboard said:
> 
> 
> > Any word on Lumens OTF?
> ...


Well, so much for ETC listening to me! On this page Lighting solutions for Theatre, Film & Television Studios and Architectural spaces : ETC are comparative output statistics (aka lies). Noticeably absent is the Prism Projection RevEAL Profile, which purportedly outputs 16,000 lumens.


BTW, I had assumed that "OTF" meant *O*ut *T*he *F*ront. Is that correct? Or is this another TLA that I'm mistaken about?


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## jgels (Mar 22, 2012)

My school is gearing up for a capital campaign and it seems likely that the auditorium will be a major focus for it. Since it would basically need to be an entirely new rig (this is a simultaneously gorgeous and useless auditorium) I have made my wish list to be 40 of Source 4 Lustr. Maybe they will compromise and give me 30  I also appreciate that I would be able to bring these units back and forth between my auditorium and black box (which is permanently wired to be 16 channels on four electrics 12 of which are permanent twofers)


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## JChenault (Mar 27, 2012)

*First look ETC Led S-4*

I had the opportunity to take a look at the new ETC Source 4 LED Lustr. Thought it might be interesting to share.

At the Hemsley portfolio review, ETC brought in an LED unit, and an incandescent S-4. They compared them by focusing the units on a white wall about 35 to 40 feet from the fixture. Each unit had a 36 degree HiDef lens tube. The incandescent unit was lamped with a 575 watt Extended life ( IE dim) lamp. In brief - a very impressive fixture for a lot of applications. Here's what I saw and heard.

Brightness. First of all, the ETC party line seems to be that comparing to a 575 watt extended life lamp is a reasonable approach since the extended life lamp is the one most frequently used. Not sure where they got that data, but I feel a ControlBooth Poll coming on.

With all LED's on ( which give a reasonable approximation of white light ) the LED unit is about half as bright as the ungelled incandescent fixture. With intense colors, it was substantially brighter. I did not have the chance to dial in pastel colors and compare to the same gel in the incandescent fixture. My gut feeling is that the crossover point for intensity would be any gel that transmits about 25%. I am sure this number varies with the hue of the color.

The dimming curve is wonderful. They use a single channel, but ( according to the rep) internally convert the 8 bit value from the console to a 14 bit internal value based on rate of change over four cycles. We did some 30 second fades and I did not see any stepiness in the curve at all. 


The beam is very precise. It shutters quite sharply, and has no appreciable color fringing. Let me say that again as it is important. No appreciable color fringing on a shutter cut. We put in a gobo, and had some slight color fringing when the gobo as we played with the focus. They have a special frost to put in the gate with the gobo to reduce this. The frost helped a little, but there was still a touch. Let me be clear though, I had to look hard to see any color fringing. If you had not known it was a color LED unit and had been looking for it I don't think you would have seen anything. Using the 'All leds on' color, there was about as much color fringing as you would get with an incandescent unit as it moves out of focus. 

Shadows cast by the beam are very natural. We compared by setting up the LED and incandescent unit side by side, projected them to the same circle on the wall, and shuttering so that the right side of the beam was incandescent only, and the left side was LED only. We stood in front of the beam with our hands out to see what kind of shadows we got. The sharpness of the shadow was a bit better with the LED unit than the incandescent unit. If you looked hard you might be able to see a tinge of color fringing - but again you would have to look very hard. This fringing was only apparent when we were close to the fixture. IE with a 35 foot throw, when we were within 15 feet of the fixture. I would say there is no appreciable color fringing with shadows. 

The LED unit is not a completely even field. It is hotter in the center and drops off a bit to the edges. This is be design so you can blend adjacent units. There is no way, however, to adjust the field of the LED's. IE no knobs on the back to even or spot the field of light. It does what it does.

The unit does have a fan. I could tell by putting my ear to the back of the fixture and I could feel the air flow. I COULD HEAR NOTHING!! This is the first silent cooling fan I have ever experienced, and that amazed me.

If you get a chance to see the unit, remove the lens tube. You get a pattern of the LED emitters projected on the wall in sharp focus. Pretty cool.

The price that was mentioned was $2500. 


My takeaway - very interesting unit. At this point I don't think that it is bright enough for general use, but it does make sense for many applications. I was impressed.


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## derekleffew (Mar 27, 2012)

*Re: First look ETC Led S-4*


JChenault said:


> ...Brightness. First of all, the ETC party line seems to be that comparing to a 575 watt extended life lamp is a reasonable approach since the extended life lamp is the one most frequently used. Not sure where they got that data, but I feel a ControlBooth Poll coming on.


I don't think we've ever done an official poll, but many had strong opinions in this thread: http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/...res-long-life-lamps-vs-high-output-lamps.html . Summary: Professionals use the brightest lamp available; educational institutions should go for long life; rental companies use whatever their clients will bear. New poll here: http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/lighting-electrics/28081-poll-what-kind-hpl-lamp-do-you-use.html .


JChenault said:


> ...The dimming curve is wonderful. They use a single channel, but (according to the rep) internally convert the 8 bit value from the console to a 14 bit internal value based on rate of change over four cycles. We did some 30 second fades and I did not see any stepiness in the curve at all.


Did they demonstrate the amber-drift (red shift) menu option? I think that is one of the best features of the Desire line.


JChenault said:


> ...We put in a gobo, and had some slight color fringing when the gobo as we played with the focus. They have a special frost to put in the gate with the gobo to reduce this. The frost helped a little, but there was still a touch. ...
> The LED unit is not a completely even field. It is hotter in the center and drops off a bit to the edges. This is by design, so you can blend adjacent units. ...


I'm not at all happy to hear this. Unless *I* choose otherwise, I want my profile spotlights to be absolutely even across the field, and to obtain a razor sharp edge. If I want blending, I'll add my own R132 or ETC's "soft wash diffuser" or (last resort) run the barrel.

> (DL speaking Pure speculation on my part:
> The *Soft Focus Diffuser* (gobo slot): to prevent undesirable X7 color fringing when patterns are used.
> The *Smooth Wash Diffuser* (color frame): to soften the edge much like we currently use R114/119/132. By simulating a point source, the LED S4 softens even less good than the HPL model, when "running the barrel."


Was the above clarified any? It seems to me that for gobo projection, particularly text and logos, a peaky field, as well as color fringing, would be quite undesirable. The gobo slot diffuser did nothing to even the beam? Those of us who remember the peak/cosine debate of the 1980s (black axial Strand-Century ERS's) eventually just gave up, resigning ourselves to "just set everything for cosine, and stop worrying about it." I don't know anyone who purposefully peaks an ellipsoidal during bench focus.

Thanks for the in-depth review, JChenault. Can you tell us when we might expect the bazillion iterations of fixture personality profiles for the GAM Plexus for these fixtures? I wonder if one could just copy the profiles for the Desire D40 and D60?
EDIT: Oh wait, that won't work, as I believe they've substituted a white circuit for the orange in the X7.
And why does no one ever mention Metamerism when talking about Selador fixtures?


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## Techfiend (Mar 27, 2012)

*Re: First look ETC Led S-4*

You can run the Lusters with the D60 profile, same LED colors. All three versions are very impressive as far as LED technology goes when comparing it to conventional source fours. Yes, they are dimmer than a conventional, but for where LEDs were a year ago, quite impressive.

From the experience I had with all three versions, the beams are much more even than a conventional with almost no beam/field angle, because of this the overlap is noticeably brighter. The frost inserts which we were calling frost gobos don't seem to have much, if any effect, in the Tungsten and Daylight fixtures. I believe this is because the LED array is all one color, however in the Lusters, it does help to even the array and blend the colors preventing multiple shadows.

Didn't notice the "Amber shift" option on the fixture menu, and when compared side to side with a standard source four, the S4LED didn't seem to shift. I will investigate and see if it is possible on the lusters' menu.


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## Wood4321 (Mar 27, 2012)

Does anyone know what the downside of using non-edlt lenses is? I am contemplating 8 of these for an effect color wash, but would like to avoid buying lenses if at all possible?


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## chausman (Mar 27, 2012)

Woodj32177 said:


> Does anyone know what the downside of using non-edlt lenses is? I am contemplating 8 of these for an effect color wash, but would like to avoid buying lenses if at all possible?



My guess is that it will cut down on the light output as the EDLTs have higher quality glass then the non-EDLTs.


Techfiend said:


> Didn't notice the "Amber shift" option on the fixture menu, and when compared side to side with a standard source four, the S4LED didn't seem to shift. I will investigate and see if it is possible on the lusters' menu.



They call it "Red-shift" in the menus.


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## derekleffew (Mar 28, 2012)

chausman said:


> They call it "Red-shift" in the menus.


From the preliminary cut-sheet cited earlier:

> HSI with ‘Plus 7’ Enabled:
> Theatrical lighting:
> Duplicates the color and dimming behavior of tungsten stage lighting fixtures
> • Incandescent dimming curve
> ...



From the Desire manual:

> Red Shift
> The fixture automatically changes its apparent White Point, or color temperature, as a
> function of overall intensity. This allows the fixture to match its dimming performance to that
> of a conventional tungsten lamp. Red shift works with both white-light and colored-light
> ...


-----

JChenault said:


> ... The LED unit is not a completely even field. It is hotter in the center and drops off a bit to the edges. This is by design so you can blend adjacent units. ...




Techfiend said:


> ...From the experience I had with all three versions, the beams are much more even than a conventional with almost no beam/field angle, because of this the overlap is noticeably brighter. ...


Two opposing impressions? Perhaps a third party who has evaluated the unit can weigh in?

Techfiend, I heard a rumor (too late BTW) that your university was lent units to use for an actual show. Care to tell us more? (Or must we wait for the inevitable magazine article/propaganda?)


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## Techfiend (Mar 28, 2012)

I will check the Red Shift option, didn't notice it for before, but then again I wasn't looking.

I believe I can talk about it now that ETC has officially released the S4LED... I'll just give a general run down.

We did use all three variations in a show (Yes Derek, it is too late to see). The Tungsten and and Daylight where used as two front light systems with a third being a standard S4. The Lusters were used as a top gobo. The Tungsten is very similar to a standard S4 but it is a bit warmer of a color temperature. The Daylight is very.... white, more like an arc lamp, but thats to be expected out of a 5600K lamp/LED, I suppose. The Lusters have a wide range of colors with x7, and +7 enabled. I will say that the color picker via gel manufacturer is a bit off, but again that might be expected... Not sure if it was because we were using the D60 profile or not.

RDM is available on the fixtures and is fairly straight forward, allowing you to change any of the fixture settings from the board.

I will agree with JChenault, that the dimming is not steppy like normal LEDs, we were in 'incandescent' fade mode.

The fixtures operate like a normal S4, shutters, gobo, accessory slot, assembly rotation.

I'll see what I can do about pictures...


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## jmcgregor (Mar 28, 2012)

Check out the pictures below for something unexpected. I thought the phenomenon was kind of interesting/cool when I saw the S4 Lustre+ LED units at the factory a few weeks ago... Even though you see the image of the individual emitters on the front lens, you do not see any of this in the field. As mentioned earlier - it's very very impressive, shutter cuts and gobos are sharp. The fixtures are everything you expect from a conventional S4 (minus the equivalent brightness in white - as discussed above...) 



Just kind of cool. Thought I'd share. I'm very excited about this product and its potential as discussed previously. It really gives us all another (very powerful) tool for the toolbox.


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## JChenault (Mar 28, 2012)

derekleffew said:


> From the preliminary cut-sheet cited earlier:
> 
> 
> Two opposing impressions? Perhaps a third party who has evaluated the unit can weigh



My impression is that etc has attempted to design a happy medium between flat and peaky. If you glance at the field it looks pretty flat. If you look closely you can see a bit of drop off. Sorry if I was not precise


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## Wood4321 (Mar 28, 2012)

bishopthomas said:


> Twenty Five Hundred Dollars!? No freakin' way is this going to catch on with anyone other than the most highest of high end theatres and rental houses. Twenty grand for 8 lights? Sorry, but a lunar space station will catch on first...



Remember, this is list price.
Your price may be lower,depending on your relationship with your etc dealer.


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## derekleffew (Mar 28, 2012)

*Re: First look ETC Led S-4*


JChenault said:


> ...Brightness. First of all, the ETC party line seems to be that comparing to a 575 watt extended life lamp is a reasonable approach since the extended life lamp is the one most frequently used. Not sure where they got that data, but I feel a ControlBooth Poll coming on. ...



Surprisingly (to me anyway), the "ETC party line" appears to be correct, at least according to one lamp manufacturer:


DELO72 said:


> ...The biggest sellers at the moment are the 575W 115V/X (Long life). They by a very slight margin edge out the regular 575W 115V HPLs ...



Even if not necessarily reflected in our very unscientific poll: http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/lighting-electrics/28081-poll-what-kind-hpl-lamp-do-you-use.html .


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## bishopthomas (Mar 29, 2012)

Woodj32177 said:


> Remember, this is list price.
> Your price may be lower,depending on your relationship with your etc dealer.



Yes, I understand, and also know how to (generally) extrapolate dealer cost from that. Even at cost I won't be buying them any time soon.


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## Wood4321 (Mar 29, 2012)

Fair enough, 
I just thought it was worth mentioning for those folks that don't realize that list price is almost never paid by anyone...


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## rochem (Mar 30, 2012)

So I saw ETC's presentation on the LED Source Four today at USITT, and spent a pretty long time talking with some of the reps about the product. Mostly, I can just reinforce and back up what others have said. The fixture is pretty darn close to matching a conventional Source Four, and I can confidently say that anyone who was not closely looking for differences would not notice anything at all. However, seen side by side, there is definitely a small visual difference, but so small that ETC's videos or the photos I tried to take can't really show it. The color mixing units are superb, but they use the same color engine as the Desire series, so this isn't really anything new. ETC themselves will admit that the 7-color LED system isn't a perfect imitation of a full-spectrum tungsten source, but for the most part it is extremely close and only noticeable under the most extreme circumstances. The dimming curve is very smooth, but the very low end of the dimming curve is still a little bit off. The biggest thing that annoyed me about the fixture was the completely flat field - after using tungsten source fours for so long, the totally flat field actually looks unusual and unnatural, and that was the biggest thing I noticed that made it stand out from the conventional S4. It's still bothering me that they haven't yet showed the 3200K LED Source Four with a gel in front of it - tomorrow I'm going to try to push them to drop gels in front of the conventional and LED units to compare them. 

However, I believe ETC deserved a huge standing ovation for the direction that they're going with the marketing for this product. Over and over and over again, the ETC reps were the first ones to say that the Tungsten Source Four was NOT dead, and they did not envision the LED Source Four ever completely replacing the conventional. Instead of marketing it as an alternative to the Source Four, they're marketing it more as just another tool in the toolbox. As part of their new "layers of light" slogan, the reps talked about how the advent of moving lights changed many things in the industry, but even more than 30 years after the moving light was introduced, even the largest lighting rigs still have many incandescent ERS, PAR, and fresnel units. In fact, more than one rep I spoke to came right out and said that "the Source Four LED is not bright enough to replace conventional units in many applications." Instead of advocating replacing your entire rig, they offered a different approach. Instead of having three or four colors of backlight, maybe just have one conventional S4 in No Color, and an LED product next to it to tone the stage and allow you to have virtually unlimited downlight colors without needing 3+ units on the pipe. They're really marketing it as a whole new type of instrument that you would choose for specific applications, much like choosing an ERS versus a Fresnel, and I think it's working.

(Un)fortunately, the product is actually so good that any of the "problems" or issues are such that they can't really be noticed in a photo, and none of the photos I took really showed anything of note. That said, if anyone has any questions or things they want me to look into, I'm more than happy to do so.


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## MNicolai (Mar 30, 2012)

There are interesting bullet points from the spec document that we certainly won't want to overlook:


> + The fixture shall be capable of copying all performance settings to other fixtures of the same type via a 5 pin XLR DMX cable.
> 
> + The fixture shall be compatible with the ANSI RDM E1.20 standard
> a. All fixture functions shall accessible via RDM protocol for modification from suitably equipped control console
> ...



I'm going to take a wild guess and say that the Smooth Wave Diffuser is what you use when you don't care for the flat field.

As someone who's had a 40-fixture Selador rig in the air for the last 9 months, I also want to point out how much I love that there will be an ability to copy settings across all fixtures on a DMX universe via one fell swoop. You have no idea how tedious it can be when you want to switch between RGB and Direct mode, or switch between an Incandescent and Quick dimming curve. I can waste a full day with our Desires if I want to spend some time trying the different modes out, and there are certain reasons I need to switch between dimming curves for particular events -- things I can't do with the Desires in anything but the Quick dimming curve mode. Being able to change one fixture and then propagate that change to all would be super-handy.

Of course, the two reasons that's a pain for me presently is because 1) we use a non-RDM console on 2) a non-RDM compliant network. In a different venue I work at with our Congo consoles, that will soon be less of a hassle because according to the community forums, ETC is working on RDM capabilities for Congo consoles, and that theatre has a Net3 RDM-compliant network. With RDM, it should be pretty easy to switch the settings across all fixtures via the console. Here, without an RDM-compatible lighting system, we're stuck with having to locate, plug-in, and manually-switch all fixtures in the system at one at a time.

For those venues that don't plan on becoming RDM-compliant anytime soon, the copy/paste feature will save a whole lotta headaches.

One of the bullet points not included in the spec document that I presume ETC will be bringing over from the Desire series is the self-terminating DMX feature. To my knowledge, ETC remains the only lighting manufacturer to incorporate this into their fixture design. It's a small feature most people overlook, but only until they terminate a DMX run to a bunch of Desire fixtures and find out the hard way that unnecessarily terminating that DMX run causes everything to go haywire.


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## MNicolai (Mar 30, 2012)

For the life of me I cannot remember his name, but somebody should come up with an award to give to ETC's optical engineer.

Remember 2-3 years ago when we'd bicker here on CB about how a Source Four LED retrofit kit wasn't possible because of the physics of a point-source in an ERS fixture? Now we take it as given that it's possible. Even 2-3 years ago, we agreed that if anyone was going to come up with a way to make a retrofit kit -- not just an LED ERS fixture, but something that could retrofit onto an existing Source Four -- that the company who would be able to do it if any could would be ETC.

It's a team effort over there and to give credit to just one or two people would be unfair, but a small handful of scientifically brilliant minds in optics, electronics, and lighting have collaborated to make something pretty amazing -- something that just a couple years ago a lot of us on CB were almost certain wasn't possible (though we hoped that it was). The LED Source Four isn't the given that a lot of us are taking it for, it's the product of some fascinating science and hard work.

I've probably been drinking a little too much kool-aid, but remember that this is [one of] the most significant overhauls of optics in an ERS fixture since the ERS was invented in 1923.


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## Malabaristo (Mar 30, 2012)

MNicolai said:


> ... It's a small feature most people overlook, but only until they terminate a DMX run to a bunch of Desire fixtures and find out the hard way that unnecessarily terminating that DMX run causes everything to go haywire.



This sounds like you're suggesting that plugging in a termination plug to a self-terminated fixture is a bad thing, but it really shouldn't be. The way self-termination works is through a switch in the female XLR connector that opens when a plug is inserted. Unless something is physically damaged, there's no risk of double-termination.

Back on topic: this is a really exciting product that I could make very good use of.... if the high school program I work with regularly had a budget larger than it's list price.


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## dkinzer (Apr 2, 2012)

I am one of the designers of the optics for the Source 4 LED. 
First, thank you for the constructive comments.
Second, I'd like to clear up some muddy waters. 
1) The field, while it may look flat, has a roughly 2:1 falloff. If you blend two beam with hard edges, there will be a bright stripe where the beams overlap. Placing a diffuser (included) in the gobo slot and soft focussing the lens tube improves the blending.
2) The output of a Lustr+ (color) unit is 4200 field lumens with a 26deg EDLT lens tube. This is for a cold fixture with all channels turned on full, and we (ETC) stand behind that number. Complete photometric data will be up on our website soon.
3) The comparison lumen measurements referred to by derekleffew were taken by myself and another optical engineer in a side room at PLASA last fall. We used a high-quality photometric camera and repeated the measurements for all who visitors who wanted to see. We asked Prism to let us measure a RevEAL profile, but were turned down.


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## STEVETERRY (Apr 2, 2012)

Dave, thanks for illuminating the issue with engineering facts.

ST


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## Wood4321 (Apr 26, 2012)

I got my first demo of this fixture yesterday.
Overall a very impressive fixture! By far the best looking LED ellipsoidal I have seen.
I did test it without the EDLT lens, and it looked great, right up until I softened the focus, or put a gobo into it.
If you are willing to run it with a hard edge, I think you would be alright with a non-edlt lens.

Output was very impressive when compared against a 575 watt sea changer unit.
In pale colors (Yellow especially) the sea changer was a bit brighter, however in heavily saturated colors, (especially Blue) the LED unit was quite a bit brighter.
Overall an incredible too, and the price point was better than acceptable IMHO.


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## HEJL (Aug 1, 2012)

Would you all mind answering a question about a project I'm working on?

A small regional theater is being built from the ground up (no existing structure).
30' x 40' x 18' blackbox, modifiable stage and seating setup.
The builder (and part investor) has recommended we go with an all LED array, given the reduced cost in initial wiring, AC load (we're in the south), monthly power cost, cable, dimmers.
Basically, the infrastructure required for LED is so much less initially and month-to-month that it cancels out the 10x markup for LEDs. It sounds like the quality of light is comparable to incandescents.

Is there any reason you wouldn't go LED in my position?
What would you substitute for Fresnels on the back and sides? Fire and Ice?

Thanks. Great thread so far. Been extremely informative.


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## hobbsies (Aug 2, 2012)

HEJL said:


> Would you all mind answering a question about a project I'm working on?
> 
> A small regional theater is being built from the ground up (no existing structure).
> 30' x 40' x 18' blackbox, modifiable stage and seating setup.
> ...



I'm sure a lot of people will disagree with me, but I personally think incandescent light looks better on people than LEDs, even those that are color corrected to match incandescent fixtures.


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## zmb (Aug 2, 2012)

Make sure you're happy with what's going to be installed. I love the idea of building a 100% LED building if you can also get the non-stage lights in too. There was a show done exclusively with various ETC LED products but I can't find the details right now.


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## essentials (Aug 2, 2012)

It was West Side Story in California, according to ETC´s page.


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## Footer (Jan 30, 2013)

Time to bring this one back from the dead....

I had been talking to the guys at ETC since these things came out to get a demo lined up. Well, I finally had the right date, Gov. Cuomo's 2013 budget address. 

We got 3 units, 2 19 degrees and 1 26 degree. The goal was to do a 2 point frontlight and a toplight with the units. Because this event was lit for TV, we decided to go with the tungsten units. We got the fixtures on the Friday before the event. From box to patch took about an hour... and that included the time to get them hauled into our catwalks. The units are a bit heavier than a standard S4, but nothing unbearable. The "lightbulb" button was rather nice; as soon as it was hung Mrs. Footer was able to turn it on, focus it, and walk away without touching the console. This meant that she could start focusing the first unit while her crew was still getting DMX run; as a result, the whole process went faster.

Now, for the guts of the whole thing. We really liked the fixture. The fact that it has zero hotspot is pretty amazing. Dimming curve is perfect (we don't have a single sensor dimmer in house so we could not compare that). Color temperature is perfect. We did not get a chance to drop a gobo or a gel in it so no comment on that. We ended up hitting him from the front 45’s with the LED fixtures and from the side from two of our 1980’s era Strand/Century 1ks. The LED fixtures matched our 1k units perfectly. We had the final LED hung at a top fixture, but it was causing teleprompter glare so that got cut. One of the things that these guys particularly liked is that there is zero heat when you are in them. When working with corporate clients this can be a god send because you can get the light you need on the VIP without sweating them out. 

Full video of the event: 2013 - 14 Executive Budget | Governor Andrew M. Cuomo





http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/23/nyregion/cuomo-to-focus-on-limiting-spending-in-new-budget.html


I really can not say more about how great the color was out of this thing. Until I told the camera guys that were doing the pool feed, they did not have any idea we were using an LED fixture. There was no camera flicker or anything like that. The temperature matched the Strand Century 2212 units we used for sidelight great. 

For our purposes, this fixture is perfect. Odds are where we currently have 3 systems of light, we would go with one system of these units and a system of the Lustr units. Yes, they do need to get brighter to compete with a 750w S4... but it will get there. It is to the point right now that we have given up the idea of replacing our dimming system all together and want to go totally LED. 

....Though our building is still getting its funding in the budget the Governor release.... he did not announce any "Egg gets a big pot of money for LED's" plan... maybe next year!


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## BobHealey (Jan 31, 2013)

Having played with a pair of S4 LEDs and a pair of D40s as possible partial replacements for a S4/PAR 64 rig at a pair of venues across the river from Footer, the conclusion the groups there came to was that the S4 LED just wasn't bright enough to integrate with a S4 575W rig unless the LED units were being used for saturated colors. With R33/R60, the 575W S4 was noticably brighter than the 7 color units. That being said, the tin cans will be replaced, most likely with D60s later this spring. The demo'd D40 units held their own with the 1K MFL lamps on the saturated colors (R74, R26, R59, R382, R22, R339).


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## MNicolai (Jan 31, 2013)

BobHealey said:


> Having played with a pair of S4 LEDs and a pair of D40s as possible partial replacements for a S4/PAR 64 rig at a pair of venues across the river from Footer, the conclusion the groups there came to was that the S4 LED just wasn't bright enough to integrate with a S4 575W rig unless the LED units were being used for saturated colors. With R33/R60, the 575W S4 was noticably brighter than the 7 color units. That being said, the tin cans will be replaced, most likely with D60s later this spring. The demo'd D40 units held their own with the 1K MFL lamps on the saturated colors (R74, R26, R59, R382, R22, R339).



That sounds about right for looking at the Lustr+ versus a 575W Tungsten. There are also the LED Tungsten fixtures that you could put gels in front of. Did you get a chance to try those out and compare them with your 575W's?

One of the first things ETC will tell you is that LED's are not a replacement for incandescent sources. They'll expand your capabilities greatly for colors, but the closer you get to producing white or unsaturated colors, the more you should be pairing up an incandescent fixture per LED fixture. The incandescent will be your O/W, pink, amber, pale blue, what-have-you, but the LED fixture is what you would lean on for the saturated colors.

That's assuming you go in the direction of the the Lustr+ option. You can also always go with the Tungsten or Daylight flavors and continue to use gels. I do not have first hand experience with what the brightness difference is between a Source Four LED Tungsten and a Source Four, but I suspect the gap between them is less than if you were comparing against a Source Four LED Lustr+.


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## BobHealey (Jan 31, 2013)

MNicolai said:


> That sounds about right for looking at the Lustr+ versus a 575W Tungsten. There are also the LED Tungsten fixtures that you could put gels in front of. Did you get a chance to try those out and compare them with your 575W's?
> 
> One of the first things ETC will tell you is that LED's are not a replacement for incandescent sources. They'll expand your capabilities greatly for colors, but the closer you get to producing white or unsaturated colors, the more you should be pairing up an incandescent fixture per LED fixture. The incandescent will be your O/W, pink, amber, pale blue, what-have-you, but the LED fixture is what you would lean on for the saturated colors.
> 
> That's assuming you go in the direction of the the Lustr+ option. You can also always go with the Tungsten or Daylight flavors and continue to use gels. I do not have first hand experience with what the brightness difference is between a Source Four LED Tungsten and a Source Four, but I suspect the gap between them is less than if you were comparing against a Source Four LED Lustr+.



The group in question is a student group at my day job (which is completely unrelated to all things theatrical) that I've turned into an unofficial tech advisor for. The university in question does not have any formal theater programs, but probably has some of the better non-professional facilities in the region. They have enough funds to replace their base setup for events in the student union (4x 750W S4 19, 12xMFL PAR 64) with LED, but don't have enough to go all LED. So one of the criteria was how well it was possible to integrate into the rest of their rig (+12 750W S4s, +48 1KW MFL, +32 500W MFL, 8 Roboscans of varying vintages, most old enough to vote, some almost old enough to drink) and if they still provided useful light. If anyone really wants to know more details, they can send me a PM and I'll detail the whats and wheres I volunteer with.


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## Tex (Feb 3, 2013)

I just did a theatre conference with a rig of 12 S4 LED and came to pretty much the same conclusions as those posted above. The colors are amazing, but they're not a substitute for an incandescent Source 4. I was fortunate enough to be able to hang two Selecon PL4's right next to the S4 LED's. While I'm a huge ETC fan, I have to say that the PL4's were much brighter and the colors were as good. The PL4 is a monster, however and weighs about twice as much. It's also front-heavy and harder to focus, but MAN does it pack a punch!


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## ProgrammerInTraining (Feb 3, 2013)

used like 20 of them at the golden globes, not to big of a fan of them due to the edge not being as sharp when shuttering, got yelled at by the gaffer when he wanted a sharp edge and I tried explaining thats as sharp as it gets.


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## Footer (Feb 3, 2013)

ProgrammerInTraining said:


> used like 20 of them at the golden globes, not to big of a fan of them due to the edge not being as sharp when shuttering, got yelled at by the gaffer when he wanted a sharp edge and I tried explaining thats as sharp as it gets.



Did you pull the frost that was in the gate?

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk HD


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## DavidNorth (Feb 3, 2013)

Tex said:


> I just did a theatre conference with a rig of 12 S4 LED and came to pretty much the same conclusions as those posted above. The colors are amazing, but they're not a substitute for an incandescent Source 4. I was fortunate enough to be able to hang two Selecon PL4's right next to the S4 LED's. While I'm a huge ETC fan, I have to say that the PL4's were much brighter and the colors were as good. The PL4 is a monster, however and weighs about twice as much. It's also front-heavy and harder to focus, but MAN does it pack a punch!



The PL4 is about 35% brighter as well as twice the weight, almost twice the price and 4 times the current draw.

David


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## ProgrammerInTraining (Feb 4, 2013)

Footer said:


> Did you pull the frost that was in the gate?
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk HD



that pattern holder like frost, yes, didnt notice it in the beginning. also noticed the barrels on the led lekos have a donut attached, leads me to believe regular barrels might not work?


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## techieman33 (Feb 4, 2013)

ProgrammerInTraining said:


> that pattern holder like frost, yes, didnt notice it in the beginning. also noticed the barrels on the led lekos have a donut attached, leads me to believe regular barrels might not work?



A standard barrel will work, it's highly recommended that you use their enhanced definition barrels though.


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## bishopthomas (Feb 5, 2013)

Yeah, compatible barrels was (is) a huge selling point.


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