# In the event of run away



## hillbillyfunk (Jul 5, 2008)

recent events caused me to write this, it does not apply to every situation but is a basic guide. 

#1	Set down any material you may be holding, do not drop it as you may injure your crew members, yell “down on 3, one two three”.

#2	Get to a safe location, off stage, in the house or in the pit are usually safe places. 

#3	Once in a safe area duck and cover, wait until all crashing has ceased. At this time the Technical Director or Lead Carpenter should call emergency personnel, local personnel first, then 911. If you are not a first responder immediately exit the theater via marked emergency exits and rendezvous outside at the loading dock. 

#4	If you are a first responder take precautions to avoid fall hazards when administering first aid, if the victim(s) are mobile and no spinal or neck injury is evident clear them from the stage even if there is not the possibility of chain reaction falls.

#6	Do not move spinal or neck injury victims, crush victims may require a crew to lift weight off of them, discretion should be used in rescue attempts and trained rescue personnel should be utilized if available. 

#7	As soon as medical personnel have evacuated the injured the Lead Carpenter should oversee the evacuation of any remaining personnel and chain lock all stage doors in accordance with OSHA's lock out tag out procedures

#7	Equip the rigging crew with hard hats and have Lead Rigger lead a safety inspection starting from the attic/grid and progressing down, ensure all damaged equipment is secure, look for damage in corresponding line sets. Document all damage and do not allow the crew to return to stage until all equipment has been secured. 

#8	Once the Lead Rigger has declared that all fall hazards have been secured then the Lead Carpenter may unlock the doors and call “all clear”


----------



## Footer (Jul 5, 2008)

Run like hell?


----------



## Clifford (Jul 5, 2008)

Not to distract from the seriousness of this situation, but it's pretty simple at our school.

Step #1: Don't install a fly system.


----------



## derekleffew (Jul 5, 2008)

Clifford said:


> ...Step #1: Don't install a fly system.


That practice may be wiser than you think, Cliff. As technology progresses, counterweight fly systems are SLOWLY being phased out in favor of 1) all dead hung, or 2) a limited number of automated battens. ALL have various safety concerns, but I could argue that the traditional counterweight system, particularly a double purchase system, is less safe than the others with high school personnel.


----------



## Clifford (Jul 5, 2008)

We have motorized battens, but we don't really use them. The lift is easier, and a lot safer. Something happened with the panel that controls the battens, so I you want to operate them you have to stick a pencil into the resets on the fuses (apparently someone used a paperclip once). That isn't cool, and I'm not an electrician, so I'm not going to try to fix it.


----------



## hillbillyfunk (Jul 5, 2008)

Clifford said:


> Step #1: Don't install a fly system.



As much as I disagree with that statement I have to lend a lot of merit to it for safety's sake, perhaps it should read "Don't install a traditional fly system."
It seems to me that a much safer fly system could be built, especially for educational environments. They recently built a 1200 seat HS theater near me that has an 18" gap between the loading bridge and the arbor (73'). 

Instead of balancing the arbor with blocks of iron a water reservoir on the roof coupled with an automatic balance sensor and some basic plumbing could make a very efficient and safe fly line. Water is heavy and cheap, a 250 gal container is not that big, make the arbor clearance deeper and one could build 500 gal tanks for a ton of arbor weight.

I like electric arbors for hoisting the deck electrics, but on the Main Rag as well as the other assorted pipes the electrics aren't flexible enough in their speed control. I'm sure in 5 years they'll be better.


----------



## photoatdv (Jul 5, 2008)

I'm confused. Did they do the thing with the water, or is that your idea. If it's your idea and it hasn't been done you should patent that. I like that idea... no more lugging weights upstairs then trying to balence them on an arbor that is too low through various bars.


----------



## hillbillyfunk (Jul 5, 2008)

don't know that anyone is doing it, but it can't be my idea, it's too simple and the theater profession is too old.

the only reason I imagine Broadway didn't do it is that water does take up more space than steel.


----------



## Footer (Jul 5, 2008)

hillbillyfunk said:


> don't know that anyone is doing it, but it can't be my idea, it's too simple and the theater profession is too old.
> 
> the only reason I imagine Broadway didn't do it is that water does take up more space than steel.



I believe they have tried it in the past, water is simply not dense enough.... now mercury... thats the ticket....

Counterweight systems are starting to be phased out. With new products such as the vortek system out there, we are going to start seeing these things go away.

Also, you don't hear about rigging accidents that often in high school environments because frankly, they don't put the systems through their paces as much. Its the larger houses that run 30-70 lineset shows with every lineset filled that pose the biggest risk. These are the places that it simply becomes to expensive to install winches. 

The big seller of winches to me though, besides safety, is labor. The amount of time that is saved by not have to attach bull lines, through weight at the mid rail, and haveing to marry linesets is HUGE to me. Not to mention cable pick weight. 

I will be walking into a TD position at a performing arts high school this fall (more on that as it progresses), and they perform in 3 spaces, one blackbox on campus, one proscenium on campus that is dead hung, and a nearby civic center theatre that has a full fly. I am very happy that I don't have to deal with a fly system with students, (though I am looking for a way to get the electrics flown on motors). I am happy that the students will get to deal with a fly system, but I am glad that all the maintenance will not fall on me.


----------



## jwl868 (Jul 6, 2008)

hillbillyfunk said:


> #7	As soon as medical personnel have evacuated the injured the Lead Carpenter should oversee the evacuation of any remaining personnel and chain lock all stage doors in accordance with OSHA's lock out tag out procedures



Someone pointed out the above on another thread: Which "lock out tag out" regulations are you referring to? My understanding of "lockout/tagout" applies electrical work, valves, and specific pieces of equipment, and is typically part of maintenance. "Lockout" positively disables a device until the lock is removed; "tagout" posts a warning not to activate the device at the control point. (From 29 CFR 1910.147 - The control of hazardous energy [lockout/tagout]).

A door that normally opens as an exit must not be chained or blocked. If you want to prevent entry, you'll need a guard. A sign (Do Not Enter, for example) will deter entrance. 

Joe


----------



## Footer (Jul 6, 2008)

jwl868 said:


> Someone pointed out the above on another thread: Which "lock out tag out" regulations are you referring to? My understanding of "lockout/tagout" applies electrical work, valves, and specific pieces of equipment, and is typically part of maintenance. "Lockout" positively disables a device until the lock is removed; "tagout" posts a warning not to activate the device at the control point. (From 29 CFR 1910.147 - The control of hazardous energy [lockout/tagout]).
> 
> A door that normally opens as an exit must not be chained or blocked. If you want to prevent entry, you'll need a guard. A sign (Do Not Enter, for example) will deter entrance.
> 
> Joe



Yep, your are exactly right on that one. Lock out/tag outs are meant to be put in place to stop a piece of equipment or power from moving/flowing while you are working on that piece of equipment. A theatre can not be locked out, ever. A flysystem can be, and many systems have locks on the rail for exactly this reason. You should NEVER EVER EVER chain any door shut, period. Please refer to the huge number of fires that have caused death because of padlocked doors. It is impossible to know if everyone is out of the building, especially after an emergency. 

And really, my feeling is that before you go into a huge discussion and time in what to do AFTER a run-away, you might want to invest about 10x that time to make sure that this never happens again.


----------



## hillbillyfunk (Jul 7, 2008)

Footer4321 said:


> .... A theatre can not be locked out, ever. A flysystem can be, and many systems have locks on the rail for exactly this reason. You should NEVER EVER EVER chain any door shut, period. Please refer to the huge number of fires that have caused death because of padlocked doors.....
> 
> And really, my feeling is that before you go into a huge discussion and time in what to do AFTER a run-away, you might want to invest about 10x that time to make sure that this never happens again.



Good insight is always appreciated and both posts provided very good insight. I wish runaways never happened but there is (on average) one per week in the US alone. We do about 45 shows a season that use the fly system, and the variables in employee's skill levels vary from "temp agency tool" to "union master".

To make certain that this does not happen to us again we are updating our training and running drills as well as getting all of the dept heads and crew leaders EMT certified. We are installing a full alpine rescue rig in the grid and getting all the riggers certified in that too. 

Regarding the safe evacuation and keeping that area safe: I agree that locks are not the best solution, human guards at doors with the inspection crew's ID tags hung on the grid stairs (to indicate who is on the steel) is much safer. Thanks for pointing out the fire hazard increase after any equipment damaging accident.

Keeping track of who is in the facility has been a problem in the past. Since we have such a fluctuating demand for over hires we often have a crew of 40 people in one day and a small crew of ten in another. Each crew member must sign out/in and display their ID badge at all times. The crew call board has the ID tags hung for that call only, at a glance a department head can tell who is in the building (in theory). This is supposed to help us keep track of everyone's location, unfortunately this doesn't always work.


----------



## Footer (Jul 7, 2008)

hillbillyfunk said:


> Good insight is always appreciated and both posts provided very good insight. I wish runaways never happened but there is (on average) one per week in the US alone. We do about 45 shows a season that use the fly system, and the variables in employee's skill levels vary from "temp agency tool" to "union master".
> 
> To make certain that this does not happen to us again we are updating our training and running drills as well as getting all of the dept heads and crew leaders EMT certified. We are installing a full alpine rescue rig in the grid and getting all the riggers certified in that too.
> 
> ...



You sure you are not doing theatre in a coal mine?


----------



## hillbillyfunk (Jul 7, 2008)

Footer4321 said:


> You sure you are not doing theatre in a coal mine?



coal mines are safer, fewer actors and better training


----------



## jwl868 (Jul 8, 2008)

A few other observations/suggestions:

It appears that #1 conflicts with #2 (and #3). If one is “down” already (#1), they are not going to be able to go to a safe place (#2 and #3).


At the “rallying point” at the loading dock, I think you need to designate someone to be “in charge” there (I can’t think of a better term). Do you want someone to take a head count? Maybe all that person can do is say – you all wait here, while I check with _____ about what to next. But I think you need to identify someone to take that role. It may be just for 5 to 15 minutes while the other Leads assess the situation. 


Another consideration is human nature: Although the instinct to run and get out of the way is strong, many people will not leave someone who is hurt. 

They may be running toward the exit, but if they don’t make it there by the time all of the crashing has apparently stopped, if they see someone hurt, they will go back.


Joe


----------



## gafftaper (Jul 8, 2008)

Just a couple of notes for our High School friends reading this.

-Never let your battens get THAT far out of weight. In a college/professional theater you may have to load a 500+ pound scenic element. That's probably never going to happen in a H.S. Your biggest load changes will be hanging a curtain or lighting instruments. If you are removing 20 lights from a batten. Remove 5, adjust the weight, repeat. If you are taking 10 off and putting 10 on the same electric... swap them one at a time. Establish a procedure that prevents the possibility of runaway situations from happening in the first place. 

-Get people off stage when you are loading weight... at least move them to the other side of the house. If you are in a funky house that requires you to put things out of weight for a while. Clear the deck when moving battens in and out for the first time. In a big pro house they have lots of trained crew and very little time. They have to take measured risks to get the job done. You don't have the trained professionals or the limited time. So take it one step at a time and clear the deck as often as possible. 

-ALWAYS call when lines are moving (except in performance). Shout it! "Line set 22 coming in mid stage!" Train your crew to respond "thank you 22". Secondly train your crew to look for actors or others on stage who are not part of the crew. Help those people by pointing out where the moving lineset is at. 

-If there is a runaway always run up/down stage. Flying Bricks are likely to travel Left/Right. Get on the other side of the Proscenium if at all possible.

-Finally someone made a comment about a lift being safer than using a motorized electrics. Any time you leave the ground it's dangerous... even with the outriggers. It's always safer to make the work come down to you. Now can you effectively focus on the ground? That's another problem. But if you can do the work on the ground that's always safer.


----------



## hillbillyfunk (Jul 8, 2008)

jwl868 said:


> At the “rallying point” at the loading dock, I think you need to designate someone to be “in charge” there (I can’t think of a better term). Do you want someone to take a head count? Maybe all that person can do is say – you all wait here, while I check with _____ about what to next. But I think you need to identify someone to take that role. It may be just for 5 to 15 minutes while the other Leads assess the situation.


good idea, that seems like a good job for the call steward, after all the they are the ones that set up the crew. 


jwl868 said:


> Another consideration is human nature: Although the instinct to run and get out of the way is strong, many people will not leave someone who is hurt.
> 
> They may be running toward the exit, but if they don’t make it there by the time all of the crashing has apparently stopped, if they see someone hurt, they will go back.
> 
> Joe



This is a problem we had at the most recent accident site, people who were not rendering first aid standing around say stupid things. It doesn't help the victim to hear people saying "wow look at all the blood"... "dude you're really hurt".. ectera. 

Then again it was a crew of all newbies.


----------



## lighttech11 (May 1, 2011)

> #2	Get to a safe location, off stage, in the house or in the pit are usually safe places.




This definitely sounds like the best course of action for all people on the deck...

But what about the fly operator and weight loaders? (specifically a double-purchase system where the rail is above the deck) I would think it might be even more crucial for the flyman and weight loaders to find safe shelter since they are closer to the weights. Obviously they should get as far away from the runaway as possible, but is there anything else they can do, since they don't have a lot of space to run to? And what do they do afterwards? Should they come down? Should they stay put? What if the initial crash causes more failures elsewhere in the rigging system? I'm just curious about what the safest things are for the flyman and weight loaders to do, since they are quite close to the arbor, and in the case of the weight loaders, also very close to the grid.


----------



## Morydd (May 2, 2011)

hillbillyfunk said:


> #4 If you are a first responder take precautions to avoid fall hazards when administering first aid, if the victim(s) are mobile and no spinal or neck injury is evident clear them from the stage even if there is not the possibility of chain reaction falls.
> 
> #6 Do not move spinal or neck injury victims, crush victims may require a crew to lift weight off of them, discretion should be used in rescue attempts and trained rescue personnel should be utilized if available.


 
NO! Do not move them even if injury is not "evident" unless there is significant possibility of additional danger. You cannot tell if there is a spinal injury by looking. The first rule of first aid is that you don't move someone if you don't absolutely have to. Wait for the trained personnel with the proper equipment. This also includes the "crush victims". Sometimes what crushed them is also the thing holding the artery closed.


----------



## HasTy (May 2, 2011)

gafftaper said:


> Just a couple of notes for our High School friends reading this.
> 
> -Never let your battens get THAT far out of weight. In a college/professional theater you may have to load a 500+ pound scenic element. That's probably never going to happen in a H.S. You're biggest load changes will be hanging a curtain or lighting instruments. If you are removing 20 lights from a batten. Remove 5, adjust the weight, repeat. If you are taking 10 off and putting 10 on the same electric... swap them one at a time. Establish a procedure that prevents the possibility of runaway situations from happening in the first place.
> 
> ...


Thank you very much for these suggestions I am currently working at a small high school in California and we have had a lot of problems with flies being improperly run and also WAY out of weight. I have been trying to find a common ground between the drama teacher and myself to keep things safe. Our next show will be using a lot of line sets and I think some of your suggestions will be put into place regarding that.

Morydd said:


> NO! Do not move them even if injury is not "evident" unless there is significant possibility of additional danger. You cannot tell if there is a spinal injury by looking. The first rule of first aid is that you don't move someone if you don't absolutely have to. Wait for the trained personnel with the proper equipment. This also includes the "crush victims". Sometimes what crushed them is also the thing holding the artery closed.


This is true. I started working as an EMT before I regained my interest in Technical Theatre. One of the biggest mistakes we would see was someone improperly moving a victim.


----------



## derekleffew (May 2, 2011)

HasTy said:


> Thank you very much for these suggestions I am currently working at a small high school in California and we have had a lot of problems with flies being improperly run and also WAY out of weight. I have been trying to find a common ground between the drama teacher and myself to keep things safe. Our next show will be using a lot of line sets and I think some of your suggestions will be put into place regarding that. ...


See also JR Clancy's site for information on Operation and Safety of rigging systems.




Perhaps also direct users to this thread: http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/...cancelled-iowa-due-damage-runaway-batten.html


----------



## HasTy (May 2, 2011)

What is sad for me is the fact that no safety signs are anywhere near the fly's in this theatre. The TD and I are always reweighting and trying to keep things somewhere in weight and yet still...*sighs*


----------



## MarshallPope (May 2, 2011)

HasTy said:


> What is sad for me is the fact that no safety signs are anywhere near the fly's in this theatre. The TD and I are always reweighting and trying to keep things somewhere in weight and yet still...*sighs*


 
Perhaps this is when it's time to invest in padlocks?


----------



## headcrab (Apr 29, 2013)

I know, necropost.


hillbillyfunk said:


> ....It seems to me that a much safer fly system could be built, especially for educational environments. They recently built a 1200 seat HS theater near me that has an 18" gap between the loading bridge and the arbor (73').
> 
> Instead of balancing the arbor with blocks of iron a water reservoir on the roof coupled with an automatic balance sensor and some basic plumbing could make a very efficient and safe fly line. Water is heavy and cheap, a 250 gal container is not that big, make the arbor clearance deeper and one could build 500 gal tanks for a ton of arbor weight....



What if you added a large volume of steel balls, such as ball bearings, to the water? The right pump should still be able to transfer the mixture.

Except that it's probably less expensive to use standard electric hoists.


----------



## BillConnerFASTC (Apr 30, 2013)

hillbillyfunk said:


> I wish runaways never happened but there is (on average) one per week in the US alone.



Guess or research? This kind of statement needs back-up. Do you have any records to prove this?

It seems that many of you have manual counterweight systems without loading bridges - a sure recipe for disaster. Sad when you consider the cost of a loading bridge in a new build is about the cost of a single lineset or two at the most. I refuse to work on a building with manual counterweight to not have a loading bridge in all but a few re-rig projects where adding it is way beyond the project scope.

It seems to me the plumbing and controls for water systems or some other viscous based system would probably cost more than basic electric motors, but be my guess.

I believe until recently the lifts at the Lyric Opera were water powered out of the Chicago River.


----------



## BillConnerFASTC (Apr 30, 2013)

PS - number one rule in the event of a runaway - do not try to stop it by grabbing the hand line and thinking that you at 150? 200? whatever can stop a set that is out of weight by much more than your weight. I know of specific cases where people - at least one of whom I know personally - have been seriously injured or killed when their head hit a beam on the weigh up, and then they hit the floor on the way down. I don't know or know of anyone injured by spraying counterweights but I'm sure there are some. So other than maybe a quick try to slow the sucker with the rope lock, generally just get away - see if you can get out the upstage door or into the first row. But don't try to stop it.


----------



## tprewitt (May 1, 2013)

As an ETCP I've been brought in after a number of accidents. Some by the venue to check things out, others by attorneys looking to establish culpability. The striking thing I've noticed is, of the accidents I've reviewed none had a single isolated event that caused the accident. In every case it's been a multi-step process. "A" happens, which is bad but wouldn't have caused an accident, but in this case "B" also happened, and we don't usually do "C" so...wham. 

I commend hillbillyfunk. Perhaps the plan isn't perfect; it doesn't really matter. It's a plan and it's better than no plan. It achieves the primary goal - making people think and creates discussion in his venue. The next accident will be different, you won't be expecting it, but perhaps because they considered what to do someone will do something better. 

Motorized rigging has some limited advantages. It's not the holy grail of safety by far. They work well on electrics in some cases. For the other 95% of stage rigging, it's nearly impossible to beat counterweight. With new products like JR Clancy's head block with the over speed brake (displayed at LDI), Thern's Brickhouse arbor & rope lock, wider spread use of multi-groove loft blocks, and synthetic purchase lines, counterweight rigging is about as safe of an answer as there is, IMO. Rigging, driving, eating peanut butter - it's all dangerous if you don't pay attention.


----------



## Chris Chapman (May 1, 2013)

Those Clancy Signs are great. Newest addition to my flyspace signage.


----------



## cmckeeman (May 1, 2013)

gafftaper said:


> -ALWAYS call when lines are moving (except in performance). Shout it! "Line set 22 coming in mid stage!" Train your crew to respond "thank you 22". Secondly train your crew to look for actors or others on stage who are not part of the crew. Help those people by pointing out where the moving lineset is at.



i have heard that it might be smarter not to have people yell out a "thank you" since it could drown out a stop.


----------



## gafftapegreenia (May 1, 2013)

cmckeeman said:


> i have heard that it might be smarter not to have people yell out a "thank you" since it could drown out a stop.



You shouldn't move the lineset until AFTER the thank you.


----------



## BillConnerFASTC (May 1, 2013)

I agree with Ty - and don't feel manual counterweight rigging is as dangerous as some people claim. (Exception: systems without loading bridges are dangerous and should be outlawed.) I thin motorized may be a little better than the credit it gets here.

In case it matters, I can legally put ETCP Certified Rigger-Theatre after my name as well - in the inaugural group - and host a party for all ETCP Certified Technicians at each LDI.

The industry causes could be helped a lot with more accurate data of accidents and incidents with some verifiable basis for the data. Too much tradition and anecdotes, to few facts.


----------



## gafftapegreenia (May 1, 2013)

BillConnerASTC said:


> I agree with Ty - and don't feel manual counterweight rigging is as dangerous as some people claim.



It might just be from my view point, but the biggest counterweight bashers I've encountered have a pretty expensive automated system they're trying to sell. 


BillConnerASTC said:


> (Exception: systems without loading bridges are dangerous and should be outlawed.)



AMEN to this. 1000 times this.


----------



## LavaASU (May 1, 2013)

cmckeeman said:


> i have heard that it might be smarter not to have people yell out a "thank you" since it could drown out a stop.



My preference is having a deck chief (be it head carp, ME, whoever is in charge on the ground of whats happening with the rigging) check for clearances, let anyone nearby not paying attention know, then give the flyman the all clear/proceed (I would not use thank you for that because thats something people say a lot, proceed isn't). That way you have less talking, and less likelihood of someone not hearing a stop. Anyone yelling a STOP means stop. Seriously. I don't care if it's the janitor. Or the intern. Or whoever.

Yeah, seen that not happen. Luckily it was only equipment damaged not people. Someone yells a stop and the two people with radios (who were supposed to be watching) were paying no attention and instead having social hour. Operator was in a remote location hence the two spotters with radios. By the time someone got their attention it was over. Yeah, that worked well.


----------



## chausman (May 1, 2013)

BillConnerASTC said:


> (Exception: systems without loading bridges are dangerous and should be outlawed.).



My HS is almost worse. I have a loading bridge, that's too high. Even with a fully loaded electric & raceway flown completely in, you can still barely reach the top weight.


----------



## BillConnerFASTC (May 1, 2013)

Are the arbors long enough that you could put spacers in, so loading level was higher? Many more questions but who installed it?


----------



## MPowers (May 1, 2013)

tprewitt said:


> As an ETCP I've been brought in after a number of accidents...... The striking thing I've noticed is, of the accidents I've reviewed none had a single isolated event that caused the accident. In every case it's been a multi-step process. ......, IMO. Rigging, driving, eating peanut butter - it's all dangerous if you don't pay attention.



Like Ty, I am called in to investigate, evaluate, report and of course Repair, several accidents each year. Some minor, some more serious. I also note that incidents are a result of more than a single cause, except that ALL causes trace back to human error. I have never investigated an incident that was caused by mechanical or equipment failure. Several that "resulted" in a failure, but never one that was caused by something malfunctioning. 

I agree with Bill, no counterweight system should ever be installed without a loading gallery. What is worse, is I know of a school system that has closed off their existing loading galleries because "it is too dangerous for students"!


----------



## LavaASU (May 1, 2013)

That happened at one point at my high school. A teacher decided it was too dangerous for students to throw weights and therefore had students attempt to deal with a several hundred pound out of weight lineset. It ended up in a runaway and a student hurt (fortunately mostly rope burn and bruises).

NOT safer.


----------



## derekleffew (May 1, 2013)

MPowers said:


> ... I agree with Bill, no counterweight system should ever be installed without a loading gallery. ...


One of our (now demolished) theatres/showrooms here was built without a fly gallery, but did have a 45' JLG Sizzor Lift that lived just outside the building. Made a dandy loading gallery, <500# at a time. Problem was, the double purchase arbors were too short, and many's the time we had to spread luminaire s across multiple batten s, not due to weight, but arbor capacity. "What do you mean you can't fit any more weight on the arbor, there's only 400# worth of lights?" Hate to admit it, but glad that theatre was torn down and replaced by high-rise condos.
.


----------



## cmckeeman (May 2, 2013)

LavaASU said:


> Anyone yelling a STOP means stop.


i will always clarify for people when rigging is moving that the word is STOP, not hey, not woha, not hold, but STOP.


----------



## chausman (May 2, 2013)

BillConnerASTC said:


> Are the arbors long enough that you could put spacers in, so loading level was higher? Many more questions but who installed it?



Most likely. Its a JR Clancy, that I believe was installed by Stagecraft Industries.


----------



## LavaASU (May 2, 2013)

I also will explain that we would MUCH rather have someone call a STOP because they think something's wrong when it isn't than have them not call it when something is wrong because they're not sure. We're not going to be mad as long as it's in good faith. The other big one (more for when we're doing a roof) is if I (and whoever else is in charge on-site) tell you to do something RIGHT NOW, do it. If I say cut loose that tarp right now, I don't mean when you get done with lunch or when it seems like a problem to you. Also (thank goodness I've never had to do this) if tell you to get away right now (or RUN) I mean it, there may not be time for a discussion.


----------



## gafftaper (May 11, 2013)

First I want to point out that my comments in this thread are meant specifically as safety training procedures for beginners in high school and college. Pro theaters will obviously have different needs and different procedures. 


cmckeeman said:


> i have heard that it might be smarter not to have people yell out a "thank you" since it could drown out a stop.




gafftapegreenia said:


> You shouldn't move the lineset until AFTER the thank you.



Correct. Calling out a lineset is moving and having people on deck acknowledge the number with a thank you is a safety check performed BEFORE you release the break. You don't start anything moving on stage until you *KNOW* that everyone in the area is either aware of what is about to happen or has an aware technician watching them for their own safety (for example if you have performers around who don't know anything about rigging you have a technician or two watching them and talking with them about what is going on until the danger has passed).


----------



## zmb (May 11, 2013)

chausman said:


> installed by Stagecraft Industries.



Somehow, where I work, has a Stagecraft install but I'm not aware of the components, getting the SR light ladders to come in means jumping onto the rope and riding it down and having to use brute force to take them out. The lineset isn't out of balance, it won't move if you don't have your hands on the line with the lock off. Everyone I work with is perplexed at this, and Stagecraft says they don't know how to fix it.


----------



## BillConnerFASTC (May 11, 2013)

zmb - this should be fixable. I have 5000 pound pieces on manual counterweight that don't move that hard. Wish I was nearer and could see. Something is misaligned - I just don't know what.


----------



## derekleffew (May 11, 2013)

Anything other than a standard SR-SL batten (ladders, side pipes, true wrap cyclorama s, etc.) usually requires muling block s to redirect the lift line s, and these can often impart an undue amount of friction into the system.
.


----------



## Jojomonkeyking (May 14, 2013)

zmb said:


> Somehow, where I work, has a Stagecraft install but I'm not aware of the components, getting the SR light ladders to come in means jumping onto the rope and riding it down and having to use brute force to take them out. The lineset isn't out of balance, it won't move if you don't have your hands on the line with the lock off. Everyone I work with is perplexed at this, and Stagecraft says they don't know how to fix it.



At the university I work at, we've got a couple of linesets with this issue, although not as extreme. Apparently during install, the T-Track wasn't installed completely plumb along the wall so the arbor shoes bind over and over again in the same places. Unfortunately, its not just in the upstage to downstage plane, but also offstage and onstage, so just loosening up the shoes doesn't fix the whole issue


----------



## kicknargel (May 14, 2013)

Any unusual friction warrants an inspection by a pro. Maybe it's one of the benign causes mentioned, or maybe there's a bad fleet angle wearing on the lift lines, or a failing bearing in a sheave. I'd lock out/tag out affected line sets until I knew the answer.


----------



## AAMorgan (May 27, 2021)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> Are the arbors long enough that you could put spacers in, so loading level was higher? Many more questions but who installed it?


Hi Bill,
Recussitating an old thread but a search didn't find this anywhere else.
What is the standard for the arbor spacers you reference above to raise loading level height? What are they made of? Is there a limit how high you can raise the loading level?
My facility has stacks of 2x6s cut into a matching counterweight profile to raise the loading height since our arbors are waaaaaaay too long. Our District finally agreed to a rigging inspecting (it's been a while) and I'm wondering if we're going to be in for a world of hurt due to these spacers.
Thank you!


----------



## MNicolai (May 27, 2021)

AAMorgan said:


> Hi Bill,
> Recussitating an old thread but a search didn't find this anywhere else.
> What is the standard for the arbor spacers you reference above to raise loading level height? What are they made of? Is there a limit how high you can raise the loading level?
> My facility has stacks of 2x6s cut into a matching counterweight profile to raise the loading height since our arbors are waaaaaaay too long. Our District finally agreed to a rigging inspecting (it's been a while) and I'm wondering if we're going to be in for a world of hurt due to these spacers.
> Thank you!



Bill hasn't been around much lately. Think he's having too much fun hiking and camping in his retirement.

Paging @egilson1 to the fly loft.


----------



## egilson1 (May 27, 2021)

MNicolai said:


> Bill hasn't been around much lately. Think he's having too much fun hiking and camping in his retirement.
> 
> Paging @egilson1 to the fly loft.



So the challenge with arbor spacers is making sure that material used will not interfere with the proper use of spreader plates, and will also resist the forces likely to be applied to them in a run away arbor situation. I’ve seen spacers made from 2x4s where 2 vertical members were screwed into a top and bottom member that were “keyed” to fit the arbor rods. This prevents the proper spacing of spreader plates every 24”. I like the idea of stacking 2x6s as dummy counter weights as I assume the compressive force they can resist is quite high. I would also suggest banding them together with the metal shipping strapping to prevent them from being able to shifting if they start to break apart.


----------



## DrewE (May 28, 2021)

egilson1 said:


> I like the idea of stacking 2x6s as dummy counter weights as I assume the compressive force they can resist is quite high. I would also suggest banding them together with the metal shipping strapping to prevent them from being able to shifting if they start to break apart.



It might be a decent idea to glue a piece of 1/4" or so plywood to the top and bottom of each to keep them together should they want to start to split. That wouldn't be much of a concern with good, well-seasoned wood...but having seen what passes for framing lumber in some places, "good" and "well-seasoned" are not always the first adjectives that spring to mind.


----------

