# Where to start to build a booth?



## MillburyAuditorium

Hello everyone, let me begin with some personal stuff,

I am representing the Millbury Jr. Sr. HighSchool Auditorium, We just put on 
two plays a year (looking to expand), about 12 concerts from our various bands, a few dance recitals and other places that want to use our facility's. We have a brand new lighting system, as fair as dimmers and wiring goes, not lights or controls. Because the maintenance people wired the switch to go from automatic houselights to DMX control, and it pretty much blue our system, so out light board had to be turned on 24/7 in order to be operable without doing a whole bunch of breaker stuff tog et it running. Our lightboard is pretty old, at least 14 years, we are looking for a new one. We rented one this year, forgot the name of it, had two monitors, was really nice. As far as our sound system goes, its prety poor, we only have two Bose outdoor/indoor speakers, orignally bought for the stadium, but while the auditorium was being built, the contractor stole the amazing 360 degree sound system that was purchased and fled, so sadly, we only have these two speakers, they do the job though, its a fairly small room, seating 300 comfortably, although we would like a new speaker set. The soundboard is good, same age as the lightboard, but in better condition, the lightbaord is dying, it cant save any pre-sets and what not. But the soundboard is running fun, so is our mixer, EQ and 8-Set wireless mic system. Our mic system includes 8 wireless clip-on mics, 7 hanging mics, and 4 floor mics. 
So, as far as our contorl area goes, its just the back of the house, on a table. It loks pretty poor and we would like something safer, and nicer.

So, We are looking into buying a booth. I was wodnering were I could find one, what to search. And I was also wondering how much one would cost. Just a fairly small one, with big windows and side windows aswell since we are on guest level, infront of the doors. Preferably sliding windows aswell so we can hear. Just enough room for some desk space and the lighting controller and the board and the sound controller with the sound board, and mixer. (The "mixer" as we call it is a about 2 feet deep, 8 space case with a 4 space EQ and 4 space CD mixer.) The microphone receivers rest ontop of the mixer. Below is a link to a picture of pretty much the exact booth we are looking for, and the same basic auditorium setup, in the middle, in back of the audiance. 

So if I could get someone to help me figure out were to look for one and the cost, that would be excellant!







Thank you!


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## avkid

I would think that your local commercial window and door store would be the best place to start.
Take in the picture and some measurements, as I highly doubt anything stock exists.


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## FatherMurphy

Booths are usually built as a regular room, not as a modular sectional preassembled sort of thing. So, the place to start would be with the Buildings and Grounds department of the school system, draw up a plan, check with building codes, take bids, etc., etc., etc....

Or, since you seem to be more interested in merely making things more secure and better looking, without taking up a lot of seats, you might look into a roll top desk arrangement. The tops are lockable, so that your equipment won't be stolen or messed with, and they're a lot smaller, simpler, and cheaper to get into use. One for sound and one for lights is an option, to give both areas plenty of space. Since you were talking of having large open windows, the noise of the crew talking softly back and forth didn't seem like a concern for you, so walls wouldn't be needed to separate the crew from the audience.


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## Van

I think that space looks kind of nice...
That aside, being part of a School you are going to be locked into a few processes that you simply cannot avoid. You are going to have to go through an architect to get the thing designed. A contractor will then bid on the project. Then the Arch's will run everything through the Engineers, Code approval and Permitting process and Yadda, Yadda. While it would be great if the kids, or faculty of a school could just get together and build a booth, now days it simply can't happen too many liability concerns. 
Structural collapse, Fire Code infringment, Emergency egress etc etc all must be taking into consideration.


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## Footer

You might also want to reconsider putting in a fishbowl type of situation. You might want to have a more open air thing built that is lockable.


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## jkowtko

Your SM and light board operator may want an enclosed booth, but your spot operator may not, and your sound op definitely will want to be out in the open.

So if you are going to build a booth, make sure there is enough space on one side of it to place a sound table out in the open area of the theater. An 8-10 foot wide space should work for this.

As far as booth structure, as mentioned above if it's a permanent structure it will require building codes, etc. So you might consider a prefab portable structure that can be carried in and set up for shows, then stored in a closet when not needed. you could probably do this with 4x8 foot panels made out of 2x3 wood frame and some luan panelling. And if you end up leaving it there for good and not moving it, it's still not a permanent structure and therefore not subject to building codes ...

-- John


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## DaveySimps

I agree with the though that you may want an open air situation for your sound op, while your lighting and stage management staff may be better served with an enclosed area. Be sure to also consider the acoustical aspects of the booth on your venue. Adding a partial or full wall of windows will alter how sound travels through your space. 

I also noticed this was your first post. Feel free to stop by the New Member Board and introduce yourself.

~Dave


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## Footer

jkowtko said:


> it's still not a permanent structure and therefore not subject to building codes ...
> 
> -- John





Not totally on that one. You can get away with that onstage, but not in an audience area. Usually, putting up walls involves a permanent structure. Added to that, if you build something you are going to put FOH with "theatrical" carpentry, the fire marshal is going to flip a lid. The temporary structure thing is meant to provide for something that is not going to be up long and is not going to endanger anyones life. Its not meant to be used as a loophole as you are saying. Making a room that houses a lot of power and heat needs special needs. Fire sprinklers smoke/heat detectors, HVAC, and proper wiring all must be taken into account. A luan room is a fire trap.


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## MillburyAuditorium

Hi everyone, let me clear A few things up.

The sound board op. will have two monitors to mirror the sound outside, so no windows will be open, I have rethought that, so now the windows will not open, or if they can, they wont be often. Also, this would be a permanent structure, basically just adding a room to the auditorium. And it will not house much power at all. The dimmers and all power units, even the amps are located backstage behind a sound proofed wall. It will only contain the mixer, sound board, light board, about two lights, and possibly a computer. I really just want to know where to go to, do I ask the maintenance department to build it? Do I go to a contracter? Or do they sell kind of, "kits"?

And yes, the front wall, if not the parts where the operators are sitting if we cant do the whole thing, will have acoustic paneling.


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## cprted

MillburyAuditorium said:


> The sound board op. will have two monitors to mirror the sound outside,


 Thats all good and dandy for a studio situation or if you want to play tunes while programming cues. But you can't really mix a live show with studio mons.


MillburyAuditorium said:


> I really just want to know where to go to, do I ask the maintenance department to build it? Do I go to a contracter? Or do they sell kind of, "kits"?


 In a school situation, you can't just go get a contractor. Plans and budgets have to be created, approval sought by 14 different committees, establish a bidding process on the work, etc etc etc. What you need to do is sit down and talk about a concept with the person responsible for the facility (which I assume is not you), and start there.


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## MillburyAuditorium

Well, I pretty much run the auditorium, but there is no designated group who is in charge of it, I make the decisions to buy new things and what not, but this is different of course. So I will have a meeting with the school board/principal about it.

Thanks.


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## NickJones

A few things: Make sure it's big enough, a small booth is hell. Audio guys normaly prefer to be in the auditorium so they can hear what the audience hears, it might sound nice in the little monitors, but this may not be so. Your current booth looks fine, so long as the audio mixer is taken outside, leaving more room for the lighting guys. Make sure you include the ability to close the door while running lead, it's annoying having doors propped open so all the lead can fit in. Little tubes to feed lead through is so useful. You need lots of desk space in a booth.
Nick


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## fredthe

NickJones said:


> Your current booth looks fine


Nick, and others...
He doesn't have a current booth! The picture he posted (if you actually _read_ his initial post) is what he'd like to do....


MillburyAuditorium said:


> The sound board op. will have two monitors to mirror the sound outside, so no windows will be open


Monitors do not equal what the audience is hearing. They will only tell the sound guy what is comming through the microphones... the audience is also hearing the performers directly. Please keep the mixer in the open. A roll-top desk works very well for keeping things safe and secure, and some even provide space for your rack-mounted equipment and wireless receivers.

Could you provide some pictures of your space? In smaller theaters, it can be quite common for the lighting board to be in the open. However, many times it's put in a back corner, rather than in the center by the sound board.

It might be good if you can more specifically state what you are trying to achieve. You mentioned safety... is it a concern over cables run on the floor, or is there something else. Are you concerned about talking during the performance over the intercom? If you can get more specific, perhaps we can recommend better alternatives than a full construction project.

Lastly, it's still unclear (to me, at least,) what your affiliation with the school is. The typos and mispellings in your original post may have led some to believe that you are a student; if you're a teacher, administrator, or other support staff, please let us know.

-Fred


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## rwhealey

I strongly recommend putting a sound mix position in the house.

However, I think this might be a bigger project than you think. Is the school willing to renovate the whole auditorium?

"They" do not sell "kits". You will probably have to work with a contractor. Think about hiring a theater consultant.


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## MillburyAuditorium

Thank you Fred for clearing that up,

My affiliation is as you suspected a student, I am Going into my Senior year, I have been running the lighting and sound in the auditorium since I was in 7th Grade, And now that I am graduating, I want something built as a gift from my class. Which my hope is building a booth, getting a intercom system and new light board. 

Well, back to the topic,

I cant really get any pictures for a while ,it being summer, If I cannot get any while I am in programming the light board for the new year in two weeks, I will get some when school starts back up. Also, We have all the equipment locked up in the storage closest, so nothing is setup, for saftey, also, thats another reason we want a booth, so we dont need to lock up the lightboard when we leave, and pack everything up at the end of the year. And we simply just want one because it would be a great addition to the theatre.

As far as I can say in text for the room is that it holds about 450 people, and if you see the picture in my first post, that is actualy almsot exactly how our room is setup, big row in the middle, and two wings. Except now, there is a little cutout in the backrow of seats for a table, where we setup. What I want to do is take out the back row of seats, wont be a problem there since we dont allow people to sit in those seats anyways, and have the booth the whole back wall, (the middle of the back wall, in-between the doors that is), minusing about 5 feet on either side for standing room. And then have it go right up to the back of the first row of seat, if its enough, if not we will remove the second row, which also doesnt matter because noone can sit there either, have a platform to level it off (the room slopes down tot he stage because our seats are not teired) and make it a little higher than the ground. Then building an independant structure on said platform, not connected to the rest of the building. So no renovation to the room will need to be done, besides a few minor things, like removing two rows of seats, which they just screw into the floor, moving the fire alarm pull to the other side of the back wall because it would be blocked by the booth wall, and really thats all that needs to be done to the room itself, besides installing two outlets and installing two lights. Fire and Collapse codes I think are the only codes that would apply, collapse can be cleared by obviusly, building a sturdy structure, and fire code will be fire code, Which I dont see what could happen, if at all need be people can go through the boot to the other side, Because think about it, oyu need to be at the end of the row of seats to get to the doors on either side of the room, so even if there wasnt anything in the back, theres no reason for people to go to the other side in the event of a fire. Also electricle code with the lights and outlits, But if installed correctly that will be fine. So anyways, the booth would not be attached to the school at all, besides the floor. It will just be an enclosed space on a platform. It will even have its own ceiling as the one in the picture does, because the ceiling of the auditorium is pretty high. 

Hope it cleared some things up.


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## tjrobb

Check out the Electric code, in the 400's. This may throw a wrench into things, as follows:
If you have an enclosed space, and have a need for power, you are going to need power taps (or surge suppressors). Problem is, if you need more outlets than you have, you're stuck. Article 400 says you can't run flexible cords under the following conditions: through a door, through a ceiling, or as a replacement for permanent wiring (with some exceptions that don't apply here). Also, running them across an aisleway is a MASSIVE trip hazard in a dark house. Lastly, there is a part of the code that says no to 'chaining' power taps one off the other (and let me tell you, finding a tap with a 15' cable can be tough).

What does this mean for you?
I hope you have a bunch of outlets on the back wall where you plan to build, otherwise the fire marshal is liable to get upset... and running new circuits is never cheap.

Also, the theatre I work at had to build a temporary space when our main one was flooded. Even then, the UNDERSIDE of ALL wooden platforms had to be rendered flame resistant / flame retardant. If this booth is 'permanent,' remember that the FR coating has to be re-applied periodically. Might mean you have to build with steel...
And no, collapse code is not "just that easy," ever had to design a moment-resisting frame on a sloping floor? Not to mention that all services (fire, water, elec.) have to be built to the code as well.

Lastly, DO NOT MOVE THE FIRE ALARM PULL WITHOUT CHECKING THE CODE. This is the fastest way to get a building shut down. Consult a pro.

Don't mean to rant, just giving you a warning from a guy that BUILT a temporary space (obviously not alone  )
(Please note that I am assuming you are from the US)


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## rwhealey

Hmm. I still think you're looking in the wrong places.

Rather than thinking of "things", like a booth or, as in your other post, an intercom system, I think you should start thinking of the big picture: talking your school board into renovating your auditorium.


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## MillburyAuditorium

Hi rwhealey, I think a full renovation would be great, but not doable, We just had had to replace the the lighting system because it was blown, so that set us back $6000 dollars. We do need some renovations though. Well, not necessarily renovations, just new equipment. Like, our house is pretty nice if I do say so myself, thick cushion chairs and nice air conditioning and what not.

But we could use some new lights, and we are working on a surround sound system, but that is later in thee future.


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## MillburyAuditorium

tjrobb said:


> Check out the Electric code, in the 400's. This may throw a wrench into things, as follows:
> If you have an enclosed space, and have a need for power, you are going to need power taps (or surge suppressors). Problem is, if you need more outlets than you have, you're stuck. Article 400 says you can't run flexible cords under the following conditions: through a door, through a ceiling, or as a replacement for permanent wiring (with some exceptions that don't apply here). Also, running them across an aisle way is a MASSIVE trip hazard in a dark house. Lastly, there is a part of the code that says no to 'chaining' power taps one off the other (and let me tell you, finding a tap with a 15' cable can be tough).
> 
> What does this mean for you?
> I hope you have a bunch of outlets on the back wall where you plan to build, otherwise the fire marshal is liable to get upset... and running new circuits is never cheap.
> 
> Also, the theater I work at had to build a temporary space when our main one was flooded. Even then, the UNDERSIDE of ALL wooden platforms had to be rendered flame resistant / flame retardant. If this booth is 'permanent,' remember that the FR coating has to be re-applied periodically. Might mean you have to build with steel...
> And no, collapse code is not "just that easy," ever had to design a moment-resisting frame on a sloping floor? Not to mention that all services (fire, water, elec.) have to be built to the code as well.
> 
> Lastly, DO NOT MOVE THE FIRE ALARM PULL WITHOUT CHECKING THE CODE. This is the fastest way to get a building shut down. Consult a pro.
> 
> Don't mean to rant, just giving you a warning from a guy that BUILT a temporary space (obviously not alone  )
> (Please note that I am assuming you are from the US)



Yes we are in the US. 

I was thinking moving the pull wouldn't go over good, but instead of moving it, putting it inside the booth, because usually, if there's a fire in there its more than likely one of the lights, so we might need one too. But now there isnt one for the audiance int he back, so maybe we would need to install two new pulls, I think those systems work like that, can have 1, or 100 kind of thing?

And for the power code, 
We wouldnt need to run cables over guest places or walkways, and if we cant install an outlet in the booth, we can just get a extension cord running just outside the booth to an outlet on the backwall, theres about 4, and it will be taped straight down then udner the edge of the wall we have, its kind of odd, theres a kind of lip at the buttom of our wall in there, the wall is one long thing of wood, than black mesh stuff, then wood, then mesh, and so on. So it will be out of the wya and hardly noticable. But then the problem is, if that comes un-plugged, the whole booth gets shutdown. Would need to figure out a way keep the plug held in the socket. Probobly mount a sort of case around the outlet. 

And thanks for about the platform. Suppose it iwll be worht it spending the money on a steel platform than.


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## tjrobb

You would need a pull beside the exit (I can only assume they had a reason to put it there), but fire alarm wiring normally needs the services of a pro with NICET certification. It it true, though, that having a second one in the booth shouldn't be an issue. Problem is, you can't store anything in front of it... or below it.
I feel you missed the part about "replacement for permanent wiring." If the cord is being used to supply power to a room so frequently that it needs to be kept from being unplugged then it falls into that category (the exception is for items like sump pumps that have to be unplugged & moved for maintenance). My suggestion is to look into having a spark come in to run some surface raceway along the wall. It's the cheapest way to add a few extra outlets, and might be able to be fed from your existing outlet.
I missed something earlier. If your theatre isn't too old, it likely has a sprinkler system. If you have a ceiling in the new booth, it's going to need to have sprinklers inside. This, again, needs a pro (for the water calculations, etc.)... and is a pain.
If you can work with it, an open "bar counter" style booth might be the best route at this point. It has the convenience of lockable storage (roll tops anyone?) while avoiding a few of the problems of an enclosed space. Plus, you can move the sound guru in there as well.


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## MillburyAuditorium

If I had an open top booth, Would it count as an enclosed space and need all the re-wiring done to get electricity to it? 

And I didn't think about sprinklers. Well, I think I am going to talk with he principal and get a quote from her on how much we need, or maybe she would be nice and buy it for us, wouldn't that be a treat? : ) Probably not though :/

I don't really want this to be to cheap, because I want it to last for generations of students. Same with the light board and intercom system. 

Heh, if I could have exactly what is in the picture I showed you all, I would love that : P 

Thank you all for your opinions and comments and help. 


Also, there isnt by chance, any companies out there that specialize in control room booths is there? 


Also after looking at that picture, I dont see any sprinklers or outlets int here : P

Also also, the one int he picture kind of looks like it was made out of aluminum, not stone like the rest of the school, or plaster. Really there isnt much of walls, its mostly windows.


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## tjrobb

Well yes, you would still need as many outlets as it takes to eliminate the 'perma-cord' problem. In general in a booth more outlets = better. If possible, two or more circuits are ideal (you don't want your sound board tripping a breaker AND taking out your light board).

Also, if you go with the counter/open-top idea you MIGHT be able to avoid moving the fire pull. MIGHT being the key word (you cannot just trim the counter around it).

In general I find (personal opinion) the three big issues with an open booth are security (see my earlier post), the sound of a tech typing on a light and/or sound board, and sometimes the SM calling cues (depending on the venue). If you can live with a little extra noise in the house, an open-top booth is probably the best for you.

As for decor, if you have much wood in the house now you might be able to 'face' the audience side and make it look snazzy.


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## kiwitechgirl

A booth is not the be-all and end-all. We have two big theatres (a 1300-seater and a 1000-seater) here, and neither has a booth; both have operating positions at the back of the stalls. No, actually, that's wrong; the 1000-seater does have a booth but it's never used except for followspots. All it means is that the operators have to talk relatively quietly on comms; we've had shows called from the front in both venues and provided people talk quietly, it's fine. We don't feel the lack of a booth in either space. I can understand the want to be able to lock things - but really, a roll-top desk, or a custom-built bench with a lid you can lift on and lock, is probably much more realistic for you to be able to achieve. We had a booth in my school theatre, and it was awful - cramped, got ridiculously hot and you could never hear the show properly; we would have loved to have been in the theatre proper. You're going to run into all sorts of logistical, administrative and legal issues in trying to build a booth into your theatre; I commend your energy and your motives, but I think maybe you need to re-think! A new lighting desk, yep, new comms system, yep, but there are better uses of money than a booth. IMO, having read your thread about comms systems, you'd be far, far better to forget the idea of a booth and get a decent, solid *wired* comms system - ClearCom or TechPro - and a couple of decent radios so you can communicate between backstage and foyer - that will be far more use in the future. Forget wireless comms - wired are far more reliable (unless you spend an absolute fortune on the top-of-the-range wireless) and less likely to fail at a crucial moment.


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## Raktor

MillburyAuditorium said:


> Also, there isnt by chance, any companies out there that specialize in control room booths is there?



Sure is. There's one that does pre-fab and custom ones, check out their site. http://www.controlbooth.com/


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## Footer

If you want this thing to last, you are not doing it right. It needs to be a part of the building. Real power needs to be ran in. Real HVAC needs to be ran in. Real sprinklers need to be put in. Otherwise, it will be taken down in a year or two because it is going to become a firetrap and a sauna. This thing is not going to be cheap either. To do it right is going to cost you 10-20k. Depending on power available, as well as other services, that could double. A properly done open air booth would be a 1/3rd of that. 

I am not saying it can't be done, but don't do it half way. If you are going to do it, do it right. 

When it comes to building codes, if you are building something new it has to be totally up to code, even if the rest of the building is not. Same thing goes for renovations, if the building does not have sprinklers, and you open up a wall to add on, now the entire building has to have sprinklers. You could be opening up a can of worms with this one. 

I would build this into a complete renovation plan. Maybe your class could help organize the push to get that done, or at least get it started. Come up with a complete set of ideas of exactly what you want the space to become and present that.


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## museav

MillburyAuditorium said:


> I was thinking moving the pull wouldn't go over good, but instead of moving it, putting it inside the booth, because usually, if there's a fire in there its more than likely one of the lights, so we might need one too. But now there isnt one for the audiance int he back, so maybe we would need to install two new pulls, I think those systems work like that, can have 1, or 100 kind of thing?
> 
> And for the power code,
> We wouldnt need to run cables over guest places or walkways, and if we cant install an outlet in the booth, we can just get a extension cord running just outside the booth to an outlet on the backwall, theres about 4, and it will be taped straight down then udner the edge of the wall we have, its kind of odd, theres a kind of lip at the buttom of our wall in there, the wall is one long thing of wood, than black mesh stuff, then wood, then mesh, and so on. So it will be out of the wya and hardly noticable. But then the problem is, if that comes un-plugged, the whole booth gets shutdown. Would need to figure out a way keep the plug held in the socket. Probobly mount a sort of case around the outlet.


You can't decide what to do about a fire pull, the NEC/NFPA, local code and the local Fire Marshal's review will decide that for you. And you can't use an extension cord that way, it is against code. NEC and local code as well as the licensed Engineer Engineer and/or Electrical Contractor that will need to be designing and installing any electrical systems will decide how you have to handle the power. Oh, and the black mesh things are likely either acoustical treatment and/or HVAC grilles, blocking them may not be an option or at least not a good one. And what about accessibility, exiting, ventilation, heating and cooling, etc. for the booth and how it potentially affects those aspects for the room?

These are exactly the types of issues everyone is trying to note, this is not just a piece of equipment and thus it is not a matter of what you can make work but rather what is legal along with what is required as far as the procurement process. Even a portable booth can have aspects that have to be addressed in regards to code, ADA and other compliance such as how it affects exiting and accessibility for the room, potential trip hazards from cabling and so on. And Kyle is right that sometimes certain changes to the space can trigger other required changes.

It may turn out that there are few issues, but when dealing with construction in a commercial building for a space considered a public assembly space, there are simply many liability and code issues that have to be considered and aspects that have to be addressed by properly licensed professionals. Your first step is probably to talk to the school administration regarding how any construction projects are handled.


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## fredthe

MillburyAuditorium said:


> ...take out the back row of seats, wont be a problem there since we dont allow people to sit in those seats anyways...we will remove the second row, which also doesnt matter because noone can sit there either


I'm a bit curious... in you lighting console thread, you mention you sell out your shows. But, you're willing to take out seats, or not allow people to sit there. What makes those seats unusable/unsellable? Usually, you want as many seats as you can get.

> ...have a platform to level it off (the room slopes down tot he stage because our seats are not teired) and make it a little higher than the ground.


For long term use, Id' really worry about a "platform." (Outside what a Fire Marshall might think.) It Will loosen up over time, and you'd hate to have a booth where no one could walk or move without it being heard by the audience.

More to the point, what are you looking to have in the enclosed space? I hope we've convinced you to leave the sound board out of it, which just leaves the light board. Would your SM be sitting there? The director? (Yes, the director has no place in a booth diring a show, but some don't see it that way...). Followspots?

Here's an idea (subject to revision based on answers to the above questions...)
For the Sound board, take out 8' to 10' (width) of seats (one or two rows deep, depending on space availability) in the middle of the back wall.  Level the area with concrete, and put in a roll-top, like this:
(See HSA Rolltop Desks - Fine Wood Furnishings for Audio & for more like it)
If you can, get power run in the floor to under the desk.
Also, you don't say how you get your snake from the stage to your mix location, but that could also potentially be put in a raceway in the floor.

For the Lighting board, consider a similar desk installed in a back corner. That way it's off to one side, and less obtrusive. This also can leave you with more seats to sell.

Going with the open "booth" area combined with securable furniture may get you what you want in terms of safety and security, and should keep you away from many code/permit issues. (I cringed when I read about moving the fire pull... around here it could take 6 months or more to go through all the necessary paperwork and approvals to get just that done.)

-Fred


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## MillburyAuditorium

kiwitechgirl said:


> A booth is not the be-all and end-all. We have two big theatres (a 1300-seater and a 1000-seater) here, and neither has a booth; both have operating positions at the back of the stalls. No, actually, that's wrong; the 1000-seater does have a booth but it's never used except for followspots. All it means is that the operators have to talk relatively quietly on comms; we've had shows called from the front in both venues and provided people talk quietly, it's fine. We don't feel the lack of a booth in either space. I can understand the want to be able to lock things - but really, a roll-top desk, or a custom-built bench with a lid you can lift on and lock, is probably much more realistic for you to be able to achieve. We had a booth in my school theatre, and it was awful - cramped, got ridiculously hot and you could never hear the show properly; we would have loved to have been in the theatre proper. You're going to run into all sorts of logistical, administrative and legal issues in trying to build a booth into your theatre; I commend your energy and your motives, but I think maybe you need to re-think! A new lighting desk, yep, new comms system, yep, but there are better uses of money than a booth. IMO, having read your thread about comms systems, you'd be far, far better to forget the idea of a booth and get a decent, solid *wired* comms system - ClearCom or TechPro - and a couple of decent radios so you can communicate between backstage and foyer - that will be far more use in the future. Forget wireless comms - wired are far more reliable (unless you spend an absolute fortune on the top-of-the-range wireless) and less likely to fail at a crucial moment.



I know that walkie-talkies will not be the best thing to do and it may break up or get interference. But please understand that we have not had any kind of communication with backstage for the last 15 years. And a walky-talkie set is far better then nothing. And if we can deal with nothing, we can deal with breakups.


And everyone, I know that you all may think that building a booth onto our auditorium isnt a good idea, and that I am going to have to spend alot and am going to have toruble with allt he codes. I know that I will need to spend alot, I know that I need to follow all the codes. My questions was not 'Is it a good idea to build a booth?' It was "Where to start to build a botth." Our students have decided on building a booth. We cannot do a complete renovation, mainly because the auditorium is completely inclused within the school. So over the last years we have been adding things. And since we do things every other day, do you think we want to open up a chest or the storage room and hual out all the equipment every time? We want a room, at the front of house. That we can lock, talk in, and kepee verythign setup. It will also boost the cosmetic of the room.


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## fredthe

MillburyAuditorium said:


> I know that *I* need to follow all the codes.


I think you may have missed the point. Depending on the policies of your school district, it may not be up to _*you*_ to follow the codes; it may be up to whoever you are _*required *_to contract with to do the work. You are talking a permanent structure; it may not be up to you.


> That we can lock, talk in, and kepee verythign setup.


The first and last items can be achieved without an enclosed space. The second item (talking) won't be achieved without double-pane glass and heavily sound-deadened walls.

We (at least I) am not trying to stop you or discourage you; we're just trying to guide you with (likely, combined) centuries of experience.

Lastly, have we convinced you to keep the sound board out of any enclosed space, yet?

-Fr


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## Cashwalker

I'd suggest looking at cubicle-style structures like Steelcase. The panels are all UL rated and they also have electric hookups. The walls only go up to 7 or 8 feet, but the fiberglass panels block enough sound that whispering is OK, but the sound guy will still be able to hear the stage.


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## philhaney

MillburyAuditorium said:


> ...you all may think that building a booth into our auditorium isnt a good idea, and that I am going to have to spend a lot and am going to have toruble with all the codes. I know that I will need to spend a lot, I know that I need to follow all the codes. My questions was not 'Is it a good idea to build a booth?' It was "Where to start to build a botth."



MillburyAuditorium, we understand your frustration. We have all delt with situations in various venues that, for lack of a better term, sucked. Big time.

We're not trying to put a damper on your project, and we're not saying that you shouldn't do it. Building a booth in your theatre as a legacy for your class is an excellent idea, and we applaud you and your classmates.

All we are doing here is to try to give you the benefit of our experiences in similar situations. We don't always express ourselves as eloquently as we could or should, so we come across as hostile at times.

Based on your age, what you've said in previous posts, and the way the universe functions as concearns projects like this one, you're doing the building upgrade equivalent of walking into an unknown dark enclosed space from an area of bright sunlight.

We are trying to keep you from setting yourself up for dissapointment by shedding some light into that space, as well as providing some alternatives in the event that walking into it just can't be done.

(in short, we really _are _just trying to help you. It just might not seem like it...)


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## museav

MillburyAuditorium said:


> I know that I will need to spend alot, I know that I need to follow all the codes. My questions was not 'Is it a good idea to build a booth?' It was "Where to start to build a botth."


I think that's what we're trying to answer. Instead of getting too far with specific issues or ideas you might be better off to be thinking in more general terms of why you need a booth and what you see as being required. Create a document that discusses what you functionally want from the booth, identifies any specific requirements such as minimum size, specific power provisions, etc. and presents a case for the booth. Don't get into how you see it being built or anything like that, just focus on what it needs to be from a functional perspective and the benefits of having such a space. That may help show the administration that there is some thought and planning behind the request. It will also provide the type of information that can help an Architect or General Contractor to provide some initial input or pricing. Then present that document to the school administration to find out where they feel you need to start and what people need to be involved.

If you are a private school then the public bid aspect may not apply but they may still have a policy to bid work or at least work over a certain dollar amount. Their insurance may also have something to say about this and who can perform the work. I would say that you could try talking to local code and permitting officials but since you don't, and can't, legally represent the school that might actually be inapproriate.


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## fredthe

Unless my searches have lead me astray, MillburyAuditorium is from Millbury, MA, a town of 13,000. The School Superintendant seems to be responsible for all of 4 schools. So, there may not be as much bureaucracy involved as in larger districts.

(But then again, we are talking Massachusetts )

-Fred


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## Footer

Building on what Brad said, you need to write up a specification for what you want. _*It needs to be clearly written*_. Specs are the "It shall contain a 16'x4' counter at 30" high" type of thing. 

Writing specs is a real pain, ask anyone here who has done it. Google around for examples. It is with this spec list in hand that you have a chance of getting this thing done. That spec sheet can be passed off to a few contractors who will bid on the job. They will go with the lowest bidder and you will have a booth. They will build to code and make sure everything is done right. If things are done wrong, they are responsible, and they carry insurance for this. 

So, figure out what you want. Write up a spec sheet. Take measurements. Make a concept drawing. Pass it off, hope you get what you asked for.


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## MillburyAuditorium

fredthe said:


> I think you may have missed the point. Depending on the policies of your school district, it may not be up to _*you*_ to follow the codes; it may be up to whoever you are _*required *_to contract with to do the work. You are talking a permanent structure; it may not be up to you.
> 
> The first and last items can be achieved without an enclosed space. The second item (talking) won't be achieved without double-pane glass and heavily sound-deadened walls.
> 
> We (at least I) am not trying to stop you or discourage you; we're just trying to guide you with (likely, combined) centuries of experience.
> 
> Lastly, have we convinced you to keep the sound board out of any enclosed space, yet?
> 
> -Fr




Sorry if I made it seem like I thought I did everything, I simply meant I meaning the whole school.

And for the soundboard, we would do some testing with open windows and stuff to see if he can be inside, but if its just not workable he will be outside.
I have something to say about that though, I have seen MANY theatre' with sound boards inside their booths, including the Hanover, (Near where I live).
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3295/2871333938_7c4b07e6ee.jpg?v=0

Sorry for the size
(Hey! The last one is another picture of the booth I want xD)

Am I missing somethings? All the pics I see online have them inside :/


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## MillburyAuditorium

Cashwalker said:


> I'd suggest looking at cubicle-style structures like Steelcase. The panels are all UL rated and they also have electric hookups. The walls only go up to 7 or 8 feet, but the fiberglass panels block enough sound that whispering is OK, but the sound guy will still be able to hear the stage.


Thats actually what I have been looking for, I saw a place that sells pre-made one, but I just don't know if we could get it inside. I emailed them about a custom one.


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## MillburyAuditorium

Okay, My friend, the sound op, and I will be getting together and take measurements right a argument and all soon.

Also, before I go ahead with that, continuing with the Pre-Fab'd rooms, does anyone think that is good? If im not mistaken, all building codes are taken care of, and the pre made rooms just need a power connection. Just need to find one that comes apart to fit through a doorway. I think that would go over very quickly. Because if it doesnt get built within a week or so we could be in trouble. (Week meening from start to finish, not from now.)


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## MillburyAuditorium

Sorry for quadruple post.

I was bored so I made a rough rough rough sketch of what I would be looking for.

If anyone cares to see.


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## Footer

Most theatres that have a sound console inside a booth also have a snake burried in the floor that they can pull out and set up an FOH open air position. Even if you are seeing a show there and the booth in enclosed, that does not mean that during tech the console was sitting in the middle of the house. When we are in tech here, we do that exact thing. Both of our consoles are put 2/3rds back in the house. When the show opens, they are moved to a booth without glass for the run. You should be able to hear what the audience hears, see what the audience sees, smell what the audience smells.....


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## MillburyAuditorium

Footer said:


> Most theatres that have a sound console inside a booth also have a snake burried in the floor that they can pull out and set up an FOH open air position. Even if you are seeing a show there and the booth in enclosed, that does not mean that during tech the console was sitting in the middle of the house. When we are in tech here, we do that exact thing. Both of our consoles are put 2/3rds back in the house. When the show opens, they are moved to a booth without glass for the run. You should be able to hear what the audience hears, see what the audience sees, smell what the audience smells.....




You said a booth without glass. Would a booth with large sliding windows do the same thing?


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## museav

MillburyAuditorium said:


> Am I missing somethings? All the pics I see online have them inside :/


Yes, you are missing that this is typically a result of not being able to give up seating, a need for the security offered by an enclosed space or simply no one there to speak out against it. It really is simple, you can't mix for the audience if you don't know what they are hearing. It has been years since I worked on a theater that could only mix from the booth and that didn't have an alternate mix position or at least a tech rehearsal position out in the house. Oh, an here is an online picture of a private school theatre with a mix and lighting position out in the house, The Murray Arts Center : Mount Paran Christian School (and yes, that is an SSL C200 digital console at FOH, one of four SSL consoles in a building with very comprehensive technical facilities). Here's a larger space that serves as a community arts center as well as serving the adjacent public high school that has a mix position out in the house, NPAC - Home. Both spaces also have enclosed booths at the rear of the house that can be used for events that don't require significant mixing.

As far as an pre-manufactured enclosure meeting all codes, no, that is not necessarily true. It may meet national codes as far as its construction but it may not meet all local codes and how it is implemented and integrated into the space must still be addressed. If it is enclosed there may be not only electrical connections but also mechanical system connections, voice/data connections, life safety connections, etc. Also think of how you are going to get all the related technology (lighting, comms, audio, etc.) to and into the booth.


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## cprted

MillburyAuditorium said:


> Sorry if I made it seem like I thought I did everything, I simply meant I meaning the whole school.
> 
> And for the soundboard, we would do some testing with open windows and stuff to see if he can be inside, but if its just not workable he will be outside.
> I have something to say about that though, I have seen MANY theatre' with sound boards inside their booths, including the Hanover, (Near where I live).
> 
> Am I missing somethings? All the pics I see online have them inside :/


My theatre as an audio console in the booth, that doesn't mean its a good place to mix from. Anything more than a lecture or stand-up comedian and we usually move audio-land downstairs into the house. No matter how wide the windows open, you're still not going to be able to hear as well as if you were in the house.

I agree 100% (and then some) with footer's post below:

footer said:


> Most theatres that have a sound console inside a booth also have a snake burried in the floor that they can pull out and set up an FOH open air position. Even if you are seeing a show there and the booth in enclosed, that does not mean that during tech the console was sitting in the middle of the house. When we are in tech here, we do that exact thing. Both of our consoles are put 2/3rds back in the house. When the show opens, they are moved to a booth without glass for the run. You should be able to hear what the audience hears, see what the audience sees, smell what the audience smells.....


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## fredthe

We've got our mix position in the house, but I will admit there are times (such as lectures) when it's one-man crew when the mix position needs to be in the booth (or wherever the lighting control is.) We have a small mixer that we can patch in, or we can remotely control the main Yamaha MCL7 board. (Of course, we have also been known to drop a laptop at the sound board, and remote to the Strand Light Palette )

I really like the Murry Arts Center site that Brad linked to. Something like that (with some way to secure the equipment when not in use) is what I was thinking of.

-Fred


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## Footer

fredthe said:


> I really like the Murry Arts Center site that Brad linked to. Something like that (with some way to secure the equipment when not in use) is what I was thinking of.



That space is the pefect example of what a space should be. It is by far one of the best venues in Atlanta, and thats putting it up against some excellent venues. They dumped a ton of money and technology into that building, if anyone could take a 1/10th of what they did, they would be on the way to a great venue. Take note.


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## NickJones

I could never work in a booth like that, the audience might see how much fun I have.... During one show we had a ping pong table set up.... I don't think patrons would be happy if I asked for my table tennis ball back.

But great for responsable mature technicians....

Nick


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## MillburyAuditorium

Oh, okay than, We will setup something in the house for the Sound op.


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## museav

Footer said:


> That space is the antitheses of what a space should be. It is by far one of the best venues in Atlanta, and thats putting it up against some excellent venues. They dumped a ton of money and technology into that building, if anyone could take a 1/10th of what they did, they would be on the way to a great venue. Take note.


It's the opposite of what a space should be?

Just to give an idea of the technology involved in that project, the audio system for that 560 seat space consists of three racks on stage filled with custom patchbays, wireless mics, wireless IEMs, Aphex active splitters, two Tascam X-48s for archival recording and other gear. There are also four racks of speaker processing and amplification and the FOH console and processing electronics in the amp room. And three more racks of patching, AV routing, control system electronics and sources in the booth at the back of the house. And that's just the house systems, there are several more racks of production communications, public address system, distributed audio and video, etc. related to the theatre operation as well as all of the audio and video being tied to the recording and production facilities elsewhere in the building. Stage monitoring includes Avioms, Shure IEMs and Nexo PS floor monitors. House speaker system is an LCR Nexo GEO-T system with Camco amps and BSS processing with Radian front fill and surround/effects speakers on Crown amps.

Unfortunately, due to a very messy conflict over the facility use and a resulting change in ownership, all of the people that conceived, developed and opened that facility are no longer involved, in fact the name even changed from the Dozier Centre when it opened (Don Dozier funded the design and construction) to the Murray Arts Center after the change in ownership. Based on comments that I have received from others, since that change the facility is not being operated anywhere near its potential capability.

Directly relevant to this discussion, the FOH console was originally to be a Yamaha PM1D, however part way through the building construction and in the midst of the detailed audio system design the Owner came back after AES one year to say they they purchased an SSL C200 console at the show instead (they got a deal since they had already purchased several other SSL consoles for the recording and production facilities in the building). Laying out the mix position with the SSL work surface we found that it resulted in insufficient space for the operator and the related patching and outboard gear. In a process that was unbelievably easy to accomplish compared to most projects, the Owner agreed to lose some seats and expand the FOH location forward another row. We drew up a conceptual drawing including revised power and conduit requirements and within a few days the Architect had modified the building drawings to show the FOH position you see in that picture.

Another relevant issue is to note the access to the booth, which was designed to meet ADA requirements for accessibility. That is the type of issue that may have to be addressed even if you used a manufactured assembly for the booth itself.


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## Footer

museav said:


> It's the opposite of what a space should be?



I should not write late at night.


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## TimmyP1955

The sound mixperson must be in the auditorium with the audience. No ifs, ands, or buts. Mixing sound from a booth is like painting a portrait with a 10' long brush - you miss all the nuances that the audience won't. And some of those nuances are ones that you want to remove!


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## MillburyAuditorium

Yeah, When the booth is built and we do some tests, And it is not likely to have the sound op int he booth, We will setup a position in the house. I only say test because, We only have two speakers, that are are kind of pointed at the opposite door, so the sound waves would cross right in front of the booth, so with open windows, who knows you might get the same sound. But probably wont be that way. But its worth a try.

Anyone else have any more suggestion about the booth?

Also, no one answered my other questions, Does anyone think going with something like Steel case or some other company that makes pre-fabricated contorl rooms might be a logical idea? Would have ot be custom of course and be shipped in parts. But it might be better to do something like that because one, it will be assembled in one day so we dont need to worry about not having a work sapce, and all codes, fire, electric, collapse, etc should be covered. Except some parts of fire. Because most of them I have seen have everything already wired up, lights, outlets, HVAC, etc etc, and connected to the control booths owns breaker box and jsut need an electrical connection, which would have to be done by pros anyways. But jsut wondering if that would be logical, anyone every delt with something like this before?


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## ruinexplorer

I applaud your effort. I think my graduating class planted some trees and had a plaque stating that they were from our class. 

I think you have finally come to the conclusion that your sound mix position needs the flexibility of being in the house. I have worked at many venues that have originally started with the mix position being in a booth, often without glass that can be removed. The result is that there is modification down the road to allow for the mix position to be in the house permanently or at least for tech. The Chandler Center for the Arts in Chandler, Arizona is an excellent example of this. The theater is part of the High School, but was created for use by the community as well. If you see in the picture, the (back) center of the house has a mix position and there are two windowed booths above that. The first tier used to be both the light and sound booth while the top tier is for follow spots. Needless to say, you could not effectively mix from the booth, so some seats were removed and the mix position was moved to the house (the stage manager now uses the other portion of the lower booth). The really cool thing about this house is that the back sections of house left and right (adjacent to the mix position) are "pods" that can rotate 180 degrees and have small stages. That's why you can see an additional booth house left. 

Conversely, I also did work at another theater which happens to be listed on the US Register of Historic Places, and so alterations (mix position in a booth with sliding glass windows) are nearly impossible. For touring Broadway productions, seats are removed from the house and platforms added to stabilize the mix position. While this was ideal for the sound person, the box office detests it.

When the Chandler center moved everything out into the house, they do not pull out the equipment after every show. They simply have locking cabinets (as has been suggested for you) with a locking roll top desk for the console. Many worship facilities do the same thing when they decide to add a proper sound mix position. The only person that I could readily see needing to be in a booth proper is the stage manager. The technicians don't need to be talking during the show and the "button pushing" just isn't that loud. Even with a project of this magnitude, you will need the entire project inspected (you can't really go with temporary power) and a one-week window may prove difficult. I think that you really should consider having that position, but equip it with furniture like this.


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## MillburyAuditorium

> and a one-week window may prove difficult.



When I said one week, I meant like, one week to start construction to end of construction, not from now. Of course I have no clue how long it would take, But I figured it would be relatively quick to actually build the booth, giving no problems occur. But then again it would probably be down on a vacation time.


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## ruinexplorer

I understood that you meant construction phase. If you have all your ducks in a row (plans and permits), it may be possible. Depending on what you will have to have done (pouring concrete to make a level surface, run power to meet NFPA/NEC regulations, etc.) as well as putting in your structure, you will still need to have the AHJ give final approval. Just a heads up to make sure that if you have that tight of a time schedule, to make preparations should something go wrong. If you are guessing the time schedule but actually will have more time available (summer vacation), then don't be too concerned as long as all the preparations have been made.

Keep us posted as you talk with your administration!


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## fredthe

MillburyAuditorium said:


> Oh, okay than, We will setup something in the house for the Sound op.


Well, that's 1/2 the battle then 

Seriously, please think about this for a bit... 

So far some of the reasons I can see for your wanting a booth are:

1. the equipment to be always set-up and ready to use
2. security (so no one can mess with things they shouldn't)
3. safety (proper electrical safety, no trip hazards, etc.)

What other specific reasons can you come up with for needing a booth? 

You mentoned talking, who in the booth would need to talk during a performance? Is the SM (calling cues) in there? 

I can think of plenty of other reasons why you might need one... but you need to be able to present this to whoever is going to approve and fund it. It would be good for you to have clear and concise idea of what you are trying to achieve by building the booth... then look if a booth really is the best way to achieve that.

-Fred


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## MillburyAuditorium

ruinexplorer said:


> I understood that you meant construction phase. If you have all your ducks in a row (plans and permits), it may be possible. Depending on what you will have to have done (pouring concrete to make a level surface, run power to meet NFPA/NEC regulations, etc.) as well as putting in your structure, you will still need to have the AHJ give final approval. Just a heads up to make sure that if you have that tight of a time schedule, to make preparations should something go wrong. If you are guessing the time schedule but actually will have more time available (summer vacation), then don't be too concerned as long as all the preparations have been made.
> 
> Keep us posted as you talk with your administration!



Oh well yes, It does not have to be a week at all, if it is being done, it could take two months for all I care. I just meant that because if we have dance academy coming in between construction, than I will have to find somewhere to put the light board for an operating position. Besides the back, there is no place to setup anything. Unless its at the edge of the stage, but I would need a lot of tape and a lot of DMX cable to reach to the back of the room to get to the master DMX outlet (Dont yell at me for improper language :/ I don't really know what to call it, the outlet hooked up to the dimmers.) But as long as it gets done, I can deal with it : )


I will keep everyone posted every step of the way : D May be a couple week gap from now until I get to talk to the board though.


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## MillburyAuditorium

fredthe said:


> Well, that's 1/2 the battle then
> 
> Seriously, please think about this for a bit...
> 
> So far some of the reasons I can see for your wanting a booth are:
> 
> 1. the equipment to be always set-up and ready to use
> 2. security (so no one can mess with things they shouldn't)
> 3. safety (proper electrical safety, no trip hazards, etc.)
> 
> What other specific reasons can you come up with for needing a booth?
> 
> You mentoned talking, who in the booth would need to talk during a performance? Is the SM (calling cues) in there?
> 
> I can think of plenty of other reasons why you might need one... but you need to be able to present this to whoever is going to approve and fund it. It would be good for you to have clear and concise idea of what you are trying to achieve by building the booth... then look if a booth really is the best way to achieve that.
> 
> -Fred



Cosmetic, Would look very nice in the house.

Not needing to keep the back row of lights on in the house to see.

Is something that we have wanted for years.

For talking, one of the two drama teachers will be in the booth correcting things, not calling ques because we don't want any interruption because we will be using a radio system. Also the light operator will be constantly talking with back stage manager and lobby manager.

Freedom- So we can eat/drink without the person recording yelling at us X_X, and basically just chit chat between one another.

Being able to get a good shot of the stage. - When a production is being recorded it must be taken from the side because we take up the only room there is in the back, and no one can stand in front of us obviously. So we were thinking of mounting a video camera on the booth a perfectly middle shot of the stage.

Letting the light operator be in the middle, I am on the side currently because the sound board and mixer and wireless mic receivers are simply to large to be not in the middle. (There is a cut in in the middle of the back row of seats.)


All these may seem feeble and not worth it to most people, but to us, it means a lot : ) And I'm sure others I am forgetting.


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## Chris15

Um, no one seems to have mentioned that you woudl quite probably be running into hot water with blocking the back passage as it's likely a required part of the exit SYSTEM. If the doors on one side lead out to the source of a fire, then you need to be able to safely get the audience out by other means. A booth in the middle of that will compromise that. Don't tell me they could open the doors - you wanted it to be lockable for security and you have to plan on the room being locked when you assess it.

Cosmetics - a pre fab booth in my opinion is unlikely to contribute positively to aesthetics...

Work lights - desk lamps and littlelites are the norm in the production world.

Freedom - you shouldn't be doing this in a show anyway, it distracts you, possibly leading to missed cues and is utterly unprofessional.

Apart from your own ego, why can't the videographer operate in front of you?

Lights need to be dead centre because?

You seem to have missed our collective point about comms systems present elsewhere, a wired one will work for 20 years, radio won't. A real headset is also wearable for hours, the same cannot be said of radio attempts.

An enclosed mix position is like asking lights to run the show off a cheap webcam in another room. Sliding windows by default will have half the area covered in glass when open. Glass reflects sound. Thus you can't get an accurate image of the house audio. Not to mention bass traps and such fun.

Remember that you are attempting to create a legacy. What you do needs to be able to work not for you but for the people who will follow you and the ones that follow them...


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## MillburyAuditorium

Chris15 said:


> Um, no one seems to have mentioned that you woudl quite probably be running into hot water with blocking the back passage as it's likely a required part of the exit SYSTEM. If the doors on one side lead out to the source of a fire, then you need to be able to safely get the audience out by other means. A booth in the middle of that will compromise that. Don't tell me they could open the doors - you wanted it to be lockable for security and you have to plan on the room being locked when you assess it.
> 
> Cosmetics - a pre fab booth in my opinion is unlikely to contribute positively to aesthetics...
> 
> Work lights - desk lamps and littlelites are the norm in the production world.
> 
> Freedom - you shouldn't be doing this in a show anyway, it distracts you, possibly leading to missed cues and is utterly unprofessional.
> 
> Apart from your own ego, why can't the videographer operate in front of you?
> 
> Lights need to be dead centre because?
> 
> You seem to have missed our collective point about comms systems present elsewhere, a wired one will work for 20 years, radio won't. A real headset is also wearable for hours, the same cannot be said of radio attempts.
> 
> An enclosed mix position is like asking lights to run the show off a cheap webcam in another room. Sliding windows by default will have half the area covered in glass when open. Glass reflects sound. Thus you can't get an accurate image of the house audio. Not to mention bass traps and such fun.
> 
> Remember that you are attempting to create a legacy. What you do needs to be able to work not for you but for the people who will follow you and the ones that follow them...



Pre-fabbed was just an idea, probably wont be though.

Worklights, We tried them but it was much easier to have a all around light.

Freedom, Sorry if we like to talk between each other and have a snack while putting on a 2.5 hour play.

Videographer- I really respect you and know your a professional. But please think of what you just said. Note that the person would be standing and have a tripod. 

Light person doesnt need to be dead center, but would be better then on the side seeing the lights from the side.

Radios- We just want basic basic communication with backstage, thus, walky-talkies, We have absolutely nothing now, its basicly cross your fingers and hope nothing happens.

I have said many times that it was decided that the sound op will be outside. 



All these things we dont NEED, but would like to have. We dont NEED anything, but we would like to have it. What is life without a few thigns you want? Me and all the other people who work in the theatre have been wanting these thigns for some time. And we do not need it, but it is just for the reason that we would like to have it.


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## shiben

Im gonna chime in here, because in our new basketball arena (which is used around once a month for events other than basketball, including graduation, conferences, concerts, etc.), we have some serious issues with our booth, and it sounds like it might be relevant. Our booth is located above all of the seats in the house, off in a corner, next to the rich-person box. All of this is on the end of the building that is behind a hoop, so not great for doing games in either... (its hard to see). The mix is in the booth, with sliding glass windows. All lighting control is centered next to the mix. Glass in the windows that can be removed knocks out your freedom aspect, because you cant talk when your open to the house anyway. Sound moves both directions. Light usually isnt a problem, but once you glass it in, you will want to use littlelites anyhow, seeing as once the glass goes in, you cant see into a dark house with all kinds of light on. It will be problem enough with 2 monitors, a littlelite, and any indicators off your light board. Video ops are always a pain, but building a booth really doesnt change anything. they are still there, unless you install a camera, which you can do anyhow. Buy a nice camera, put it on a security camera mount, and focus it, then hook it to a DVD recorder and your good. As for eating in the booth, dont. For one, all your buttons get greasy from your fingers touching them, and the chances of you dropping a drink on a console are very high. I will admit to having had a coffee in the booth before, but keep enough space that your not going to get the console with a spill (like 2 feet is usually enough). This effectively limits you to not having drinks in most booths (ours was quite large, the light booth alone is probably like 20 feet long, with similar length SM/Projection and Record booths too, but now its being renovated so they are making it smaller and more compact). For Com, get a wired system, and get a nice one. Cheap radios are cheap, but they suck. Once you have used clear-com or telex, you will not want to every use one again. Having stuff dead center is a good call, but usually you want Audio world there, and lighting world off to the side a bit. Anyhow, in our arena we usually use the hookups for the E-snake and ETCNet and set up a booth in the house for quality sake. That was a bit random, but I hope you can learn from our awkward situation.


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## MillburyAuditorium

Yeah, I have realized theres more thing consider then I originally thought, so we are calling the guy who worked in the theatre before I came to help out re-doing the lights and the booth. Plus he will give a big boost, being a profesional, to the chance of getting the money we need.


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## museav

shiben said:


> Glass in the windows that can be removed knocks out your freedom aspect, because you cant talk when your open to the house anyway.


Maybe I'm misunderstanding this, but you seem to be saying that your being able to talk freely is more important than hearing what the audience hears or getting a good mix. Having a SM where they can't be heard when they call cues makes sense, but how much talking do the sound and light board operators normally have to do during an event? Sorry if I misunderstood.


shiben said:


> Having stuff dead center is a good call, but usually you want Audio world there, and lighting world off to the side a bit.


Especially with stereo or multi-channel sound systems, having the FOH mix position a bit off center is actually better than it being dead center. Especially if the system is not properly designed, installed or adjusted, what you hear dead center can be quite different than what the majority of the audience hears off to either side. The FOH position being dead center, and in fact where it is in general, is often more a factor of aesthetics and what space is practical to use than it is of that being technically preferable.


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## shiben

Brad, I was responding to a comment listed earlier, as one of the benefits of the booth was to be freedom to chat during shows. I was pointing out that you cant really do that anyhow if you can mix in the booth.


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## MillburyAuditorium

museav said:


> Maybe I'm misunderstanding this, but you seem to be saying that your being able to talk freely is more important than hearing what the audience hears or getting a good mix. Having a SM where they can't be heard when they call cues makes sense, but how much talking do the sound and light board operators normally have to do during an event? Sorry if I misunderstood.
> 
> 
> Especially with stereo or multi-channel sound systems, having the FOH mix position a bit off center is actually better than it being dead center. Especially if the system is not properly designed, installed or adjusted, what you hear dead center can be quite different than what the majority of the audience hears off to either side. The FOH position being dead center, and in fact where it is in general, is often more a factor of aesthetics and what space is practical to use than it is of that being technically preferable.



I know it doesn't have anything to do with me, but communication between light and sound op is important to us here at my school, because there is only 4 people running the show, me, the light op, master electrician, stage manager etc. etc, the sound op, running soundboard, mixer, CD player, EQ and wireless mics etc. Backstage manager, relys messages between the light and sound op to the director, supervises the curtains, dimmers, amps, etc. And the directors. Doing ques and whatever else directors do.


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## rwhealey

Yeah, but that's what an intercom is for.


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## icewolf08

*Disclaimer:* This is an unusually long post for me, but I think that it is valuable information. it is by no means meant to be harmful or offensive to anyone. It is only my personal opinion. As such, please feel free to take it to heart or disregard it. I will not be offended if you don't agree with what I am saying.

Let me chime into this discussion. First of all, every high school senior who does theatre in this country feels exactly the same as you, they want to give back to the school and make some lasting impression. It is a wonderful idea, and it is one of those "last hurrah" attempts to solidify the legacy that you think you have. I hate to break it to you, and I certainly mean no offense to any of the high school students on CB, but it is just a symptom of the "big fish in a small pond" syndrome. Don't get me wrong, every single one of us who got into this business in high school went through the same thing. Every one of us thought that we were the sh*t when we were seniors, and then life kinda hits you in the face and it sucks.

We all "knew" exactly what our theatres needed. We "knew" how to do all kinds of things like wire up equipment or build scenery. Some of us actually did, and some of us just learned the way that it had been done in our schools for years which turned out to be totally wrong and unsafe (but those schools probably still do it the same now).

I work for a professional theatre that operates under an educational institution. it is amazing the bureaucracy that you have to deal with when you want to get almost anything major done. This is just the way that educational institutions work. It is even more problematic in a public institution. On that note, building anything of a permanent nature in a public building (like a high school), no matter how small and insignificant you think it might be, will have miles of red tape and hoops to jump through. Even if you plan to do all the leg work from design, to funding, etc., there are so many people that have to be involved in a project of that nature that odds are you will never be able to achieve it in the time you have left at school.

Even if you buy a prefabricated structure, they are not designed to be freestanding. You still need to actually do renovation work to install prefabricated rooms. Odds are, even with a prefab structure you will still ned to hire some sort of contractor or at least construction crew. This of course is not to mention that most likely there are union rules that apply to work like this in a public building which would make it almost impossible to be a DIY project.

There is a reason that most class gifts don't consist of construction projects for the school. It is inevitably impossible for such project to be completed on time, within budget, and the way you really want it to happen. Does this mean that you can't give a meaningful, lasting gift that future students will continue to enjoy for years to come? No. It just means that you have to pick your battles. Construction projects, probably not going to happen.

All that being said, *DON'T GET DISCOURAGED*. It is possible to make changes (it is just easier if you own the building that you want to change). The type of project you are proposing is something that is totally possible to do. You have to have the right support for the project (i.e. enough parents/taxpayers to make an impact) and you have to have a plan. The plan has to include specifications (as mentioned in an earlier post), a proposal for funding, reasons for the project, etc. Odds are the proposal will have to be voted on my the city school board. Then it will have to be put up for bid. Then it will get designed. At some point it will get built, and inevitably you will end up with a bill that is at least twice as much as what you wanted to pay.

If you really want to know the ins and outs of building for educational institutions, talk to gafftaper. He recently worked on a renovation at the school he works for. It is not always pretty and it is never easy.

From all of the threads you have started, it seems that there you have some much more feasible goals outside of building a booth. You talk about wanting to put in a new lighting console. This is something that is an achievable goal for a class gift. It will be a lot easier to raise the funds and put in (donate) a lighting console than it will be to build a booth. While everyone who walks into the building may not notice, it is still a worthwhile gift. It also doesn't have nearly as many strings and red tape attached to it that a construction project does. By the same token, putting in a nice, real coms system is another easy to achieve goal for a gift (though it may be more expensive than a lighting console).

In the end, you have to consider funding. Raising money for a class gift is not easy. You are talking about projects that total in the tens of thousands of dollars range. Even in a very well off city, that is a nigh on impossible goal for one senior class to raise. Many college classes can't even raise money on that scale for a class gift. It is good that you are researching the project and that you have so much zeal to push ahead with it, but you need to take all of the things that we have been saying and put this project in perspective. It is just not as easy as it seems like it should be. We are here to help you and we want to see you succeed, but you have to trust us when we recommend things to you. We have a lot of very experience professionals as well as educators here. Combined we probably know most of the ins and outs of almost every aspect of the industry from the smallest school theatre to the largest professional company. So please let us help you out.


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## museav

shiben said:


> Brad, I was responding to a comment listed earlier, as one of the benefits of the booth was to be freedom to chat during shows. I was pointing out that you cant really do that anyhow if you can mix in the booth.


Thanks for the clarification and sorry for any misunderstanding on my part.


MillburyAuditorium said:


> I know it doesn't have anything to do with me, but communication between light and sound op is important to us here at my school, because there is only 4 people running the show, me, the light op, master electrician, stage manager etc. etc, the sound op, running soundboard, mixer, CD player, EQ and wireless mics etc. Backstage manager, relys messages between the light and sound op to the director, supervises the curtains, dimmers, amps, etc. And the directors. Doing ques and whatever else directors do.


I typically don't see that much communication occurring between the light and sound ops or even from the light or sound ops during shows. And communications from the light and sound ops to the Director during a show would be even less common. Might you currently not having any production communications system or your functioning as both light op and SM be affecting your thoughts regarding a booth?

This brings up a point to perhaps expand on icewolf's great post. As an 'outsider' in most projects I often find that while the input of specific users can be of great value, in the case of many facilities, and especially educational venues, it can also be problematic. Put simply, and hopefully not offending anyone, I often have to remind people that they are effectively only borrowing the space. An instructor may be in a classroom for a semester and then moved to another building (or be at another school), a student may be there four years and then move on, the head of a department may retire and be replaced next year. And the next person using that space or deciding the direction of the programs for it may have a totally different perspective and way of doing things. You are usually not building something just for the current users but also for those who may come after them and this can be a factor in many decisions. This is where broad (not necessarily just in years but in scope and range) experience and being able to step back and take a 'bigger picture' perspective can often be beneficial.


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## MillburyAuditorium

*Cost to build a booth?*

Sorry to dig up this old thread, but I was wondering if someone could answer this, 

Well, I have spoken to the principle and she has asked me of a rough estimate on how much a contractor might charge to build a booth.

She likes the idea, she is a theatre major, go figure xD

I didn't know what to tell her, I cant imagen the actual structure being a drastic amount, but I understand we need some minimal electrics etc etc. So, if anyone could give you know, a just rough general estimate on how much a booth with the following specs would typicaly cost.
She just doesnt want to go ahead on bids until she was prepared to know how muhc it should cost and what not.

So,
It would be built as like, another room inside the house, in the rear, a door on either side, raised on a platform a foot or so, the structore will need a brace kind of setup in the front as the room does slope down. There be two large sliding windows int he front covering most of the front wall, at counter height to the top, and then two smaller windows on the sides next to the doors, and glass, see through doors.
As for electrical hookups we would need two power outlets (We use surge protectors for everything) And one or two dimmable lights inside the booth, and thats pretyt much it, except if codes require an AC unit. 

Thanks ; )

Again I know its hard to just guess on something like this, but f someone can just give me a very general average price.


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## mstaylor

*Re: Cost to build a booth?*

A couple of questions. 
1. Where are you? Different areas have widely different price ranges for carpentry.
2. What size booth?
3. Why the side windows and glass doors. The glass doors will add a fair amount more than wood doors. 
4. Is there a sprinkler system in the room and would there be any existing heads in the area of the booth or would the system have to be reworked?


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## MillburyAuditorium

Hey mstaylor,

1. We are located in Central Massachusetts.

2. If you look at the first post that would be about right. This is just a guess, I haven't measured anything but about 8-10 feet wide (Does that sound right?)
And 4-6 deep. There would be a counter also installed (If it costs to much we will put put in tables) to put equipment on at the bottom of the windows which I am thinking about 2.5-3 feet deep and the entire width of the room.

3. I guess we dont need glass doors, but I was just saying the side windows so we could out the side of the booth, even though it isnt really needed I guess. Its just that we have a very small number of people working the show, but I suppose we dont need it and wood door and no side widnwos would be fine.

4. I don't believe there is any sprinklers inside the theater at all, I do know there is a fire alarm pull box in the rear of the house and on stage, along with the fire curtains pull, but no sprinklers. So the sprinklers wouldn't need to be re-worked. And the pull box is off to the left side main entrance, so I believe that it wont be int he way, i anything the booth might be a little off center, but I think it will clear it.

(You don't know how many times I have gotten chills when I accidentally leaned back on the box before while standing up : P)


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## mstaylor

A couple of thousand would be a WAG.( Wild ass guess) A lot depends on local codes, local wages and field conditions. One possibility is to ask your local vocational school to look at it. In our area they will do work charging only materials.


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## cprted

You actually need to contact a contractor or two and ask them what they would charge to build what you want.


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## museav

mstaylor said:


> A couple of thousand would be a WAG.( Wild ass guess) A lot depends on local codes, local wages and field conditions. One possibility is to ask your local vocational school to look at it. In our area they will do work charging only materials.


Quite likely a fair bit more than that. Any construction may take pulling permits, etc. which means formal drawings and so on, it can quickly snowball. And if it like many schools and institutions, there may be a dollar amount above which the work has to go to bid which could mean first having to generate Bid Documents. If the school has a General Contractor they work with then it may be best to start by going to them and seeing if they can provide a 'ballpark' number just to give you some idea.


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## fredthe

Are you planning for an open top, or will there be a ceiling in the booth? If it's fully enclosed you will probably need to worry about Lighting, HVAC, Fire Suppression, and whatever else the local building codes require. Additionally, if it's enclosed, you _will_ need some sort of ventalation.

You might want to do a sketch of the space, and then talk to a couple of contractors to get an idea of cost. Also, watch the depth of the space, presumably you want to be able to walk behind someone seated at the desk.

Just to make sure, you are still planning on having the sound board outside the booth, right? I still think you'd do better with a leveled-off open area, with some way to secure the equipment. I worry that you are persuing this to get a "clubhouse", rather than trying to get the best out of your space.

-Fred


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## MillburyAuditorium

Thanks for the reply's guys, I was starting to get worried about the people telling me at school "..its gonna be like 30,000 dollars.." I was like "..0_0.." And assumed they where wrong, I understand codes etc, but we aren't building a house 

So anyways, back to your responses, 
It would be nice to be enclosed, but hey if it knocks off a few thousand by all means open top, and then sound op can be inside, but I was also thinking something like this, it just kind of crossed my mind while reading your posts, it would like, blow the price down dramatically and might not even require a contractor.

I'm pictured a raised platform, a foot or so with steps on either side, and then a "half-wall" all the way around, that pesky fire alarm pull might not even have to be moved if it is still accessible in open air.

Same dementions, bit a bit more depth another few feet, any estimates on this? I am assumign there would be no need for a contractor if the groudns department can do it correctly, I am picturing a wooden, or steel frame to start, then covering floor with some kind of roll out vinyle or whatever you make floor out of, Dont ask me : P Or carpet or, whatever. Staple it around around the edges, and I dont know if it comes pre made if so, would probobly get the half wall pre made and bracket, or how ever you would mount it, around the edge of the platform, and leave two spots for lockable gates, and if theres extra money, then build a countertop in the front, if not, just bringing in a table.

Any estimats : )

Me and my (Dont lecture me about the big fish small pond about when I said "my" crew, I AM in charge of the schools theatre, some may of read my other thread where it came up. And I understand, I am by no meens the ebst.)
have came up with that we could make roughly make about $1500 recording and selling copies of our plays. (I udnerstand, copyright, all our plays we purchase with re-production and selling rights, or ones with free rights, because useally the drama department does it themselfs.)

Maybe 1,500 would cover this platform type thing? Well, probobly a bit more.

But either way this litlte platform I am thinking would safe us loads of money for the new light board we pretty much need now :/.


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## cprted

Mill, nobody here can give you anything more than a shot in the dark. I could tell you you'll be able to do it for $2200, but I really have no idea. You can't go into your principal's office with a "quote" from someone off the internet who you've never met, has never seen your space, lives X thousand miles away, and--in my case--is in a foreign country.

If you're going to get someone else to do the work, find a possible someone and ask them to give you a quote. 

If you're going to DIY, you need to come up with a design and then price out the materials (assumeing free student labour, which in a school environment may not be allowed).

This of course does not even touch upon building code and permitting issues.


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## MillburyAuditorium

Cprted, 
That was a response to the open mini stage idea right?

Well now that my idea has changed and we might not need to higher someone I will talk to the principal about it and see if the grounds crew has some oft he materials needed, if we can get the "free" (For the theatre) labor and what codes would need to be followed, most likely cutting the list down dramatically.

Thanks everyone~

PS
I'm sure she will be more apt for this idea, it will save her "wallet" and increase my view of new equipment


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## fredthe

MillburyAuditorium said:


> I'm pictured a raised platform, a foot or so with steps on either side, and then a "half-wall" all the way around, that pesky fire alarm pull might not even have to be moved if it is still accessible in open air.


*YES! * That's what several of us have been trying to tell you all along

A lot of the cost of any construction project isn't just the materials and labor, it's the architect, engineering (for HVAC, Electrical, etc.) Permits, Inspections, etc. By scaling back your project, you may avoid much of this, though it will depend on local codes, etc. You'll need to work with the school on this.

Building a raised platform is pretty straightforward, make sure it's well anchored to the floor. Also make sure the flooring is heavy (3/4" or 1" plywood) You don't want it to shake or thump when you walk on it.

For the half-wall, I'd do standard 2x4 (maybe 2x6) with drywall construction. The outside drywall can extend all the way to the floor, and give a nice, finished look to it. Use a nice, varnished piece of wood (hardwood would be best) for the top edge.

Carpet the platform with a good industrial/office grade carpet. (You want something your chairs can roll easily on.) You want to make the floor as quiet as possible.

You can work with an electritian to get power run to the 1/2 wall, where you need it.

I would expect materials for this to run in the $1,000-$2,000 range, +/- 3dB You'll need to work with the school as to if you'd be allowed to provide the labor, or if an outside contractor would be required.

-Fred


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## MillburyAuditorium

: ) Thank you Fred.

I and my SM have been discussing it and we think that this would be best, we aren't even liking the booth idea much anymore xD We actually think this would look and operate for out needs even better then a booth.

I will speak with the principal about it, she will be very pleased I am sure, and at only 2-3 thousand we can definitely do that, Me and the sound op can come up with at least 1.5k by selling DVD's of the play alone.

I'll see if we can have grounds do the construction, would save a bit. Or even give the engineering department a job : ) Even have a plache on the side for them : P


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## Footer

Wasn't the point of this to secure the equipment? Unless you do a roll top your back to where you began. I would look back at roll top desks if you are not going to build a secure room. You could also just look into keeping the auditorium secure, but that can be harder then it sounds in school environments.


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## MillburyAuditorium

Well, I did not mean secure as in theft, I am no worried about that, I meant students touchings things. I am pretty sure they wont jump over a half wall just to fiddle with something, a big thing we have a issue with is students walking back there when no one is there supervising and either messing up the EQ or playing with the light board.

So the thread really isnt much about saftey of our equipment.


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## fredthe

MillburyAuditorium said:


> I and my SM have been discussing it and we think that this would be best, we aren't even liking the booth idea much anymore xD We actually think this would look and operate for out needs even better then a booth.


Ah, the Jedi mind trick worked...

From the viewpoint of keeping idle hands off the equipment, the raised area/0.5 wall is a good start. You will probably also want some sort of cover on the equipment when not in use. A soft cover will keep the idle curious out, or maybe a wooden box to fit over each console. These could even be designed to lock to the table, if necessary.

Make building the platform as strong as possible a priority. You don't want something that's going to start creaking over time. It would be ideal if you could level the area with cement, but that's probably not practical given the constraints (budget, etc.) you're working with.

-Fred


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## MillburyAuditorium

Jedi mind trick? : P


Yeah, We are planning on throwing just white sheets over everything when not in use. And when we get the Element, it comes with a cover designed for it : )
But I am, hoping, that people wont hop over a wall just to fiddle with something.

As for a building technique, obviously creaking would be bad, so when we get someone building it I will ask them about making the frame pretty much concrete, like make a wooden thing, not sure what to call it, in the shape of the platform and fill it with cement, once harden, you remove this wood? And then just make the half wall around the edges, cut out the spaces for the gates/doors and make or buy the doors, make stairs out of wood, get the carpet (Or what other materiel would be best for rolling on?), then finish the outside with some kind of fabric.

? Comments ? 


I really can't see any codes needed to be reviewed for this as it is not enclosed, so bye bye, ventilation, fire, etc, and then to get rid of the fire egress path thing, we will build the back of the control platform about 4-5 feet from the back wall, no need to move the fire alarm pull, and since it isnt a room, no need to install electrical outlets, but just run an extension cord into a power strip or two as we do now anyways. However, I am thinking of different ways of making that better, any ideas? Something that wouldnt need a electrician but a permenant power supply to the platform? Would that violate any codes?

Thanks!


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## philhaney

The big deal with concrete is the price. Usually it is sold by the cubic yard, and the rates are higher than you might think ($75/cubic yard - 2008 national average). Plus, to build a platform for your booth out of concrete, you will have to cut a hole in your existing floor the size (length and width) of your booth and remove the existing concrete. Then rebar will have to be placed in the hole and coming up to the new platform before concrete can be poured (this is the only safe way to anchor your new platform to your existing (sloping) floor that I know of. A contractor or someone else on CB might know of a cheaper way.) And believe me, the cost of the demolition and removal of the old will far outstrip the cost of pouring new. 

Stick with a nice wooden platform with a 1" plywood deck, and have your contractor strap (or otherwise anchor) it to the floor in a manner prescribed by your local building code. This can be "creakproofed" fairly easily.

Take a close look at your electrical code, too. Where I am, pluging an extention cord into an existing outlet is OK with gear sitting on a table in the back of the house, as it can be said to be a temporary installation. Running an extention cord into a permanent installation (like your booth would become as soon as you built a platform and anchored it down) is strictly forbidden. We would have to run conduit and pull wire for something like that.


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## MillburyAuditorium

philhaney,

Oh, okay, didn't realize all that was needed for concrete, so okay, wood it is.
Thanks~

Also about electrical,
Okay, I was sure if a platform like this counted as a structure or not.
Now that leads me to the question, in order to remove a electrical outlet, lengthen the wires going to it, re-wire it into the half wall of the "booth" and tape down the wires going to the outlet that run across the floor down so no tripping hazards, would we need an electrician to do that? Or would it be safe to have maintenance do it? I was thinking an electrician wouldn't be needed because we aren't adding a circuit or anything.


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## kiwitechgirl

MillburyAuditorium said:


> Now that leads me to the question, in order to remove a electrical outlet, lengthen the wires going to it, re-wire it into the half wall of the "booth" and tape down the wires going to the outlet that run across the floor down so no tripping hazards, would we need an electrician to do that? Or would it be safe to have maintenance do it? I was thinking an electrician wouldn't be needed because we aren't adding a circuit or anything.



You can't have a socket on the end of taped-down wires - it's not like an extension cord, because you're missing the outside sheathing of the cable. If you want to move a socket you'd need to run the wires through conduit. Surely your school has an electrical contractor who can do this for you - it's not a tricky job, but needs to be done properly.


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## philhaney

Other than to say, "You can't do your electrical that way. It violates code and is unsafe" I can't tell you how to do it. No one else here can tell you how to do it either. Our TOS states:


> The users of ControlBooth, in a effort to police themselves, have evolved the following: No discussion of "how-to" of rigging, pyrotechnics, human flight, stunt falls, weapons and electrical will be permitted. Our stock answer to these questions is always "Consult a qualified professional."



You must get an electrician to do that part so your electrical willl be to code.

I realize building and electrical codes can be a real pain in the you-know-what, but they exist to proctect you and to keep your venue from burning to the ground. 

What kiwitechgirl said.


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## MillburyAuditorium

Thanks guys, sorry, I didn't know you could talk about electrical rigging here. 
Well, I think that pretty much wraps it up. 

I will be sure to provide pictures when it is completed, along with general pictures of our theatre. 

: )

Thanks to everyone~


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## mstaylor

Make sure the floor joists are a proper size for the spans and use a tongue and grove plywood properly glued then either nailed or screwed. In this application I would screw it to help avoid squeaks. The electrical definitely needs an electrician, who will probably run it in the platform, so you have you have to schedule it before you top it and he can't get under it. There are metal base plates that can be shot to the floor to secure your legs. Don't scrimp on legs either. 
I have 30 years in the building business, GC, as well as doing theatre and concert work both professional and non-professional.


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## MillburyAuditorium

Thanks for the info : )

lol, I was planning on a large number of legs and supports, don't want it collapsing under me : )

(Wonders if the engineering department can do electrical work as good as a electrician..Hehe, free help.)


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## cprted

MillburyAuditorium said:


> (Wonders if the engineering department can do electrical work as good as a electrician..Hehe, free help.)


If they aren't certified electricians, it doesn't matter what quality of work they're able to produce.


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## MillburyAuditorium

Yeah, Figured that : )

Great  Our plans seem to be shaping up nicely now. We need roughly $8,600 for everything we are planning on this coming year. Also, I guess the new assistant principle is becoming, the principal, and she is a theatre major, go figure  So I am going to ask her if I may host a fund raiser and give her, the school, a share and keep the rest to find anything for the theatre.

And I know how to get people seeling, not iPod Sweaters, lightup goggles and stuffed animals like the find raisers are like 

Not to mention I would sell to ever house in town


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## museav

Just to mention some things that recently came up on a project I have, one of the first issues is what your are building on top of. I don't know if the existing structure is on grade or over something, but someone such as a Structural Engineer should be confirming that whatever is there can handle any new loads you may be placing on it, not just people and equipment but also the new structure itself. You may also have to have someone sign off on the design of the structure you build. ADA compliance should probably also be checked.

If the structure used for the platform is permanent and creates a cavity underneath then you may have to deal with that, I have seen people required to install sprinkler systems under some taller stages.

On the electrical, make sure you are providing sufficient and appropriate power. Typically a booth would have more than one circuit serving it, probably at least three (lighting, sound and general use). As Phil said, you can't use extension cords for permanent power provisions. Consider cabling paths and access for the future.

I am very concerned that you are considering constructing anything like this without any professional design. There are likely to be permitting and other aspects that will require input from licensed design professionals. If your intent is to give something to the school, then give them something they can be proud of and use for years to come, not something someone else has to deal with or tear out in just a few years.


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## MillburyAuditorium

Hello museav, Thanks for the response : )

Well the area where the structure would be built is on a very very (Opposite of steep?) grade, but would need some sort of brace for the front and what not. The floor is concrete, holes may need to be filled though if they arise an issue, since we would take a row or two of seas out to put the platform in, but maybe these holes will prove helpful to support the structure? I don't know anything about building, so I'm not sure if they could be used or not.

The cavity underneath would be about 1-2 feet high, so I think that will be fine.

We run all of our equipment on two outlets, and they might even be on the same breaker, although not one thing else uses the circuit, except maybe one or two outlets on the stage. Our dimmers and amps are backstage, so what we load onto these two outlets is, the light board, sound board, CD mixer, EQer, and 8 wireless mic receivers. I will get the wattage of everything and see how much power is fed to the two outlets. 

And of course we would have a proffesional desighn and building, but it might be built, MIGHT MIGHT, havnt even talked to the principal about it yet, be built by the engineering department students, who would be over saw by the engineering department's head staff, who are, engineers.

Electrician's job SHOULD be very simple, although you know something always has to come up : P Just removing a power outlet, installing it into the platform, run the wires through like, 10 feet of conduit/tubing and re-wire the outlet.

Building should be fairly simple, Just a guess, no experience in that area.


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## Soxred93

MillburyAuditorium said:


> Well the area where the structure would be built is on a very very (Opposite of steep?) grade



Shallow? .


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## museav

MillburyAuditorium said:


> The cavity underneath would be about 1-2 feet high, so I think that will be fine.


Yep, and the people who built the Tacoma Narrows Bridge Tacoma Narrows Bridge (1940) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia, the Teton Dam Teton Dam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia and the St. Francis Dam St. Francis Dam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia all thought they would be fine right up until they weren't fine. Seriously, you may well be right but you need to have someone qualified verify your assumption.


MillburyAuditorium said:


> We run all of our equipment on two outlets, and they might even be on the same breaker, although not one thing else uses the circuit, except maybe one or two outlets on the stage. Our dimmers and amps are backstage, so what we load onto these two outlets is, the light board, sound board, CD mixer, EQer, and 8 wireless mic receivers. I will get the wattage of everything and see how much power is fed to the two outlets.


This is a good example of the potential issues. While the total wattage of your equipment is important, so is how the power is handled. You typically do not want everything that might be at FOH on the same circuit and if you are building this for the long haul then it makes sense to plan for the future and do it right. In addition, with your building a wall code may require some 'general purpose' power to be located in that wall. Code also requires power to be based not on what you have plugged in but rather on what might realistically be connected. These considerations beyond your immediate needs are where some professional expertise and planning may be required.


MillburyAuditorium said:


> And of course we would have a proffesional desighn and building, but it might be built, MIGHT MIGHT, havnt even talked to the principal about it yet, be built by the engineering department students, who would be over saw by the engineering department's head staff, who are, engineers.


Your Engineering staff may be licensed Professional Engineer's but they may not. I know that the terms "Engineer" or "Engineering" are often used in regards to facilities and systems operations by those without any particular license or qualifications. However, when addressing design and construction, especially when potentially affecting life safety, this references licensed Engineers and Contractors. If you do have licensed Structural Engineers, Electrical Engineers and Architects on staff then they might be able to help you and should probably already be involved.


MillburyAuditorium said:


> Electrician's job SHOULD be very simple, although you know something always has to come up : P Just removing a power outlet, installing it into the platform, run the wires through like, 10 feet of conduit/tubing and re-wire the outlet.
> 
> Building should be fairly simple, Just a guess, no experience in that area.


And that's often the catch, the little unforeseen things that end up doubling the cost or causing problems. For example, how do you plan on physically getting from the existing outlet to the platform? Might you have to open up the wall, pull up the aisle carpeting, trench the aisle and then fix everything back up? Has anyone verified that you can add an outlet or relocate the existing outlet without exceeding the capacity of the existing circuit? Will they allow wood construction or require that the wood be treated or that the 'shell' enclosing it have a specific fire rating? Any of these could significantly affect the construction cost and/or time.

I'm not trying to discourage you, but this thread is now addressing electrical work and building structure is similar to rigging, both of which are topics that are not to be discussed here. The only direction offered regarding the physical implementation of the construction should be to seek the help of qualified professionals.


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## MillburyAuditorium

Well I simply meant, you said some high platforms need sprinklers beneath them, and 1-2 with a sprinkler under it?

Their are two outlets at the back of the house, so the side one can always be open for general purpose, and I do believe the theater was designed so both of those, or one of them, is the only thing on its circuit, I will doubt check that as well.

Yeah, I would have to ask if we have anyone working for the district, most likely though we will be contacting a local wood and construction company in town to build and supply the wood.

Like I said, I don't really know what the electrician would have to do. If it is possible to do it, but like some mentioned, it may inflict with the Egress Path code. So if it is passable, the back of the platform will be right up to the wall, so the conduit/piping would just run out of the wall and under the platform. If we cant sneak by with "blocking" (I don't know if the pathway is considered as a means of emergency crossover or not, will check that out.) the rear crossover, then I am not to sure on what they would need to do to get power over the few feet from wall to platform, probably get a thin conduit and have it attached to the rug and place a "Watch your Step" sign. Because pulling up the floor isn't very practical as it is concrete. But if we have to we have to.


Also, we might not have to even have the structore braced for the slope, because now that I am thinking about it, the floor doesnt slope until the third or fourth row, (Hopes I am right). So construction might be a tad easier.


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## philhaney

MillburyAuditorium said:


> Well I simply meant...
> 
> Yeah, I would have to ask...
> 
> Like I said, I don't really know...
> 
> Also, we might not have to...




I'm with museav and everyone else who has responded to your posts in this thread.

We're not trying to discourage you. We want you to succeed, and build something nice for your school's theatre, as well as leave a legacy from your class.

We just want to make sure you dot all your "i"s and cross all your "t"s.


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## tjrobb

Here's what I can remember of the codes I have used:
Less than 4' clear space under a level makes it a platform and does not normally require sprinklers. One exception is where the space created is combustible (namely, made of materials that burn)
Do you need an electrician? A good way to answer that is: do you need to turn off the breaker to perform the work? In your case, yes, you do. There are some cases where an electrician may not be needed even though you have to turn off the breaker, but this isn't one of them. They will need to do load calculations and other fun things, some of which the engineers may not be able to do.


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## MillburyAuditorium

Thanks guys : ) Well, of course, as I said, I am just responsible for getting it started, but once I hand the school the design then its their responsibility to get it done. So I am not handling the building and contractors etc, I will just be there supervising/watching and giving suggestions and what not.

So now I suppose the new topic is, 

Any suggestions for our platform?
Any features we should consider?


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## mstaylor

If you have a raised platform make sure you use carpet. Put as much power in it as you can on different circuits. You will have a light board, sound board, possible followspot, a computer, maybe a headset base station. Lots of things to plug in so you need circuits.


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## MillburyAuditorium

Yes, we would use carpet.

And I will talk to the electrician and have him to some real work if we have to get him in there : P I'll see if he can get us say, four outlets on two circuits. And those outlets the only thing on the circuit. I have never really checked, but the two outlets we currently use must be on their own circuits, we have our sound board, light board, mixer, and 8 wireless mic receivers one two outlets.


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## fredthe

MillburyAuditorium said:


> Any suggestions for our platform?
> Any features we should consider?


You've mentioned the DMX outlet on your back wall. I also don't know how your audio is run, but it may come from the back as well.

Consider building in a wire trough/raceway for *low-voltage* lines (like microphones, intercom, DMX, etc.) That way you can run your cables below the platform floor, and not worry about taping them down.

-Fred


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## MillburyAuditorium

Yeah, I just thought of that, We would need to move the DMX input into the platform as well, don't think the wire just coming out of the booth would look to good. 

As for sound, there are no outlets or anything. We have 8 wireless mic receivers that plug directly into the board, and then everything else that is plugged into the board runs into a snake which travels across the floor, straight up the wall, straight over to the side of the wall, straight down the length of the house to the stage, down the wall, up along the edge of the stairs, then along the edge of the wall and backstage and then it stops at its little cart, then out of the cart comes all the same wires that plug into the amps.


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## fredthe

I wouldn't necessairaly move the DMX jack (though you can if you want.) I'd just build a trough into the platform (maybe 4" wide x 2" deep) with a removable cover. You could just drop your snake and DMX cable in the trough, which would get them from the back wall to under your table/work surface in a clean manner.


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## MillburyAuditorium

Yeah, instead of ripping up the wall, I think I will just sort of, with some connectors, make an outlet for the dmx inside the booth, but have the wire still coming from the wall but have it sort of a permanent connection, not sure if you know what I mean. 

A trough would be good, Will incorporate it into the design, would give more room to roll around. Only two things in the trough would be the snake and dmx wire but I suppose its still better then them just going across the floor.


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## museav

mstaylor said:


> If you have a raised platform make sure you use carpet.


What does carpeting do? It's not necessarily a bad thing and is often the most cost effective floor finish but I'm not sure how it relates to a raised platform.

Millbury, you might want to think a bit more on a "big picture" level. Maybe what you described is how you currently have the wiring setup and how you use the Auditorium now, but are you building something that supports the future or that might require being torn up to add a network connection or a few wires? Is this an opportunity to plan to improve the snake situation or any other existing issues and incorporate that long term planning into what you are doing now? Think of how the booth fits into any other potential improvements and not just as an independent project.


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## tjrobb

To expand on museav's thought, I find that there are several things that would normally cost $$$, but since you are dealing with a related widget only cost $ during the remodel (I hope this makes sense). One example is electrical maintenance - it can be dangerous when the power's on, but if the power is down for remodeling it becomes a little safer.


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## MillburyAuditorium

Museav,
I think carpeting will reduce creaking? Not sure.
Also, other things that could come of this booth would be that we would probably permanently install the snake into some kind of tubing, we take it down every year and set it up at the beginning of the next. Mainly for security reasons so, since the school is only being cleaned during the summer.
Anyways, besides just because you know, we would like to have it, not everything needs a point you know? Whats the point in getting an iPod instead of an mp3 player? Because you want it : )
So,
Because we would like to have it.

Would permanently install the snake.

Add security.

Would feel more safe if the DMX input and light boards power is somewhere safe, ie, in the booth area where only I and the SM would be. ( I was holding my breathe when some guy asked if he could plug in his camera to the same outlet as the board was plugged into. This was when if our board was shutoff we would lose the system, some of you might recall me speaking of this before.)

Would provide the people coming to shows the freedom of using the rear crossover, as it is blocked off because it is our control area.

I'm sure this is more : )

Would provide future lighting and sound technicians a more professional work station.


tjrobb, I sort of don't understand the first part, and of course power would be shut off.


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## ruinexplorer

I usually use carpet to deaden the thumping not creaking.


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## museav

Carpet, an often more the any pad, will typically help with the higher frequency 'click' or 'tap' components, sounds common to concrete or brick as well wood structures. However, carpet usually provides little reduction in low frequency 'thumps' or for any mechanical creaking, squeaking, etc. caused by a load being applied to a framed structure. It also won't do anything for any echo or reverberance occurring within the cavity below the deck.


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## mstaylor

I agree the carpet doesn't stop the hollowness of a platform, insulation will help, but it keeps some of the footstep noise, chairs rolling or scraping and other ambient noises that vinyl or other surface wouldn't.


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## ruinexplorer

Which is what I was referring to. To completely deaden the sound of the platform, I'm sure a search on the scenic forum will have plenty of information.


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