# 2 week vs 1 week performance run



## lparks1 (Feb 25, 2011)

This question relates to selling seats.
We are forming a TYA company off of our professional company to mount shows this fall. Our board wants to make use of a larger venue (better technically equipped than the one we use for mainstage). Problem is, the difference in price is nearly 8x. As such, at the larger venue, we could only do 1 weekend of shows (Fri-Sun) in a 500 seat house compared to 2 weekends at a 120 seat house. 

My big question is: Is there any advantage to doing performances over 2 weekends rater than 1? I notice very few theatres do single weekend vs 2 or more weekends...

Is there some benefit to having 2 weekends (other than the obvious fact that you can sell "more" seats)? Our budget on most shows would require selling 850 seats over 1 weekend (4 performances) in a 500 seat house -- which seems doable to me -- but it still kind of scares me to cut back on the typical 2 week runs I am use to doing...


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## cpf (Feb 25, 2011)

There's no magic formula for calculating run times and schedules. You need to know the show's potential audience, the geographical pull of your theatre, and how to advertise to that audience and schedule your performances to get the maximum number of people in seats. There is always a limited pool of people who want to see your performances, so it's never a linear nights/seats-sold relationship.

In my experience running a show for "too long" only costs you the price of performing it that night, your audience rarely looks at the poster and says "Wow, greedy theatre company is doing a N week run! I'm not going to support that!"

As for cutting back, why are you thinking you want to? Are numbers too low to merit that many performances?


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## chausman (Feb 25, 2011)

One advantage of having two weekends is that if people weren't able to come one weekend, they could come the other.


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## lparks1 (Feb 25, 2011)

> Are numbers too low to merit that many performances?


Well, here is the way I look at it. It cost's roughly $8,000 a week to rent the venue (it would be slightly less the second weekend since we don't need so many tech days). I look for our total attendance to be between 800 and 1,200 for most of the shows. The venue seats 561, so we could really fit 2,244 people in for 1 weekend - since we estimate selling less than that, the board thinks that we should just save money and so it 1 weekend/4 performances. 

The kicker on my part is that, for shows that run multiple weeks - you usually see attendance increase the second weekend once word of mouth/reviews, etc get out - something you don't have for most single weekend runs.

I don't know what to think. I mean, it would cost about $5,000 more to do a second weekend - and I just don't know if the benefits would outweigh the risks.


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## LXPlot (Feb 25, 2011)

You should only opt for the single weekend perfomance if you desperately need the bigger area, and are positive the show is going to sell out. If not, opt for the smaller thing, get more creative with technology, and if the show ends up being packed you may even be able to stay open for an extra weekend.


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## JChenault (Feb 25, 2011)

Another thing to consider is 'how full will the house be'. If you expect to get 900 buts in seats - in the big venue 4 performances at 500 capacity you will be under 50% capacity each performance. The space will likely feel empty. If you use the small venue 8 performances at 120 capacity you will be at 90% capacity. As an audience member it is more fun to be in a full house than a half empty one.


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## Footer (Feb 25, 2011)

We do a 3 weekend run with a 500 seat house. The biggest factor for us is paying for royaltys for those seats. Your going to pay much more in royalty's for larger seat houses and unless the rights company lets you sell less tickets then the venue has seats, your stuck paying for that many seats. We would LOVE for our house to get knocked down to 300 seats for the exact reason.

I also worked for two different summerstock company's that did a 2 week production cycle. We ran the show the 2nd week Wed-Sunday run then closed. 5 days, 7 performances plus a preview. We did that for 6 shows over a summer season. However, we were also working in 2,000+ houses. Along with that, we started selling tickets to the shows in February. Therefore, people could plan around those perfomances months in advanced. We sold the weeknight shows pretty well and sold out most weekends. The economy of scale worked for us. We could sell 8,000 tickets at 70 bucks a pop and easily make out OK. 

In my theatre right now I am finishing up weekend 3 of the run. That being said though, the theatre is dark for 4 day in a row whenever we have a show up. For us, thats not a huge deal because its our theatre. However, in a rental venue that is huge. Any day you are renting a space and not doing anything in it is a wasted day. Unless you know you can sell at least 60% of the house both weekends you might as well not do it. Otherwise, sell 90% of the house for one weekend and call it a day. Load in on monday, tech on tues-thurs, open friday. Do a matinee and an evening perforance if you need to both sat. and sun. Strike sunday. Otherwise, your just chucking money out the window to hold that space when you are not using it.


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## lparks1 (Feb 25, 2011)

> However, in a rental venue that is huge. Any day you are renting a space and not doing anything in it is a wasted day.


This one thing keeping us from renting for 2 weeks at the big venue. We COULD do 2 weeks of a show in the big venue -- but no more than 2 or 3 times a year MAX. This is not really related to money - but that the management does not want one company coming in and renting all the dates. 

As long as we keep our "2 week runs" under 2 or 3 times a year, they do not charge for the dark days (Mon-Thur of the second week). However, if we do more than 2 or 3 times a year, they want to charge us the performances rate for those days since they are loosing a lot of rental revenue off of that.

So really, I mean it's not a matter that we can't rent the venue for 2 weeks (even if we only did it once or twice a year for the big shows) -- I am just very concerned rather the additional $5,000 is worth the gamble. 

I mean, we could sell more than 800 or 900 seats. Our professional company recently did Narnia the Musical and sold 853 seats in the 120=seat black box space over 2 weekends - and another theatre company in town recently did Frog and Toad at the same 500 seat venue we are considering, and sold over 5,000 seats for 2 weeks. They did equally well for a 2 week run of Sound of Music at the 500 seat house. 

One thing I been trying to take into account is that the 500 seat house is much more know theatre, has very good downtown presence, a large mailing list and dedicated following and is much more technically advanced than the 120 seat blackbox, which is less well known, is sort of off the beaten path (still downtown but in an conspicuous building with little signage) etc. 

It's just so up in the air for us right now because we have yet to do any TYA shows -- they seem to sell really well in this town - but I don't want to be the one that proves that theory wrong.

We are doing sort of a "test" fundraiser at the 500 seat house in May -- a concert version of Les Mis school edition. We are only doing it over 1 Friday evening - but I'm hoping we can see how the venue works for us.


> Load in on monday, tech on tues-thurs, open friday. Do a matinee and an evening perforance if you need to both sat. and sun. Strike sunday.


Actually, our schedule is different. The venue requires the use of IATSE labor, so our plan we to rent the venue Thur - Sun. Thur would be load-in, focus and dress with an opening Friday = very similar to a tourig show schedule. We are sort of blessed in that we can rehearse with the full sets and all in the rehearsal hall and just transplant it. I have never done this before - it was suggested to me by our Associate Artistic Director and it would save us a ton of money over renting even a whole week.

Any advice on this?


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## Footer (Feb 25, 2011)

lparks1 said:


> Actually, our schedule is different. The venue requires the use of IATSE labor, so our plan we to rent the venue Thur - Sun. Thur would be load-in, focus and dress with an opening Friday = very similar to a tourig show schedule. We are sort of blessed in that we can rehearse with the full sets and all in the rehearsal hall and just transplant it. I have never done this before - it was suggested to me by our Associate Artistic Director and it would save us a ton of money over renting even a whole week.
> 
> Any advice on this?



Ouch. Unless you guys REALLY have your stuff together that is going to be a huge push. If you can do it, more power to ya, but man is that going to be a challenge. Touring shows can pulll that off because they spend time teching the show somewhere else. Its not only going to make your load in harder, it has the chance of lowering your production value over where you are currently working. At my "other" gig, we have shows like this in reguarly. If you give us one day to load in a show, tech it, and do a run, you are not going to get out of rep configuration on anything. Beyond that, your ducks better be in a row. Everyone needs run sheets that are clear and flawless, you need an SM that knows whats going on and how to keep a show moving, and a director who can think on their feet. We will do the best we can for your show, but if you are not going to pay for the days it actually takes to get a large show up, we are not going to totally kill ourselves to get your show up so you can save money. We will work hard, but not any harder then we do any other day.

Also, whenever you are doing a show for kids, you need to take into account when kids are active. The like matinées and field trips. They don't like evenings.


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## lparks1 (Feb 26, 2011)

> Also, whenever you are doing a show for kids, you need to take into account when kids are active. The like matinées and field trips. They don't like evenings.


The plan is for shows during the school year too be:
Friday at 10:30 (student matinee), 4:00 and 7:00
Saturday at 2:00, 4:00, 7:00
and Sunday at 2:00, 4:00




> If you can do it, more power to ya, but man is that going to be a challenge. Touring shows can pulll that off because they spend time teching the show somewhere else.


Well, one advantage we have is that things like set movements, etc can be practiced in advance since we have a full sized rehearsal stage. About the only thing introduced during the actual performances that we cannot practice with is Fly cues and lighting. The fly cues should be rather easy as there should not be a lot of tweaking those need, as long as you have the fly schedule well through out and a good cue sheet. Lighting might be somewhat more problematic - but we use fairly competent lighting designers who can plot out a very good plot that does not need adjusted much during setup -- other tan of course focus.

The sample schedule we had was to load-in at 7:00am on Thur, Have the lights hung, gelled, sets screwed together, flying scenery rigged by 1:00 - then do a light focus from 1:00 - 3:00 and then a tech run from 4:00 - 6:00 with a full cast dress from 7:00 - 9:30 or so.

The IATSE agreement they have would generally mean we would need (4 loaders), (8 General Hands) and (1 Tech Director). They don't have any specialized IATSE (Riggers, Electricians, Flymen, etc) specified in their rate sheet or contract, just "General Stage Hand".



> We would LOVE for our house to get knocked down to 300 seats for the exact reason.


If we did go with the 500 seat house, we would not make all 500 available. The odds of selling this amount for each show is slim. Rather, we would make 300 (the main floor only) and not sell the balcony. Also saves on Ushers and manpower this way. I have always just entered the amount of seats we plan to sell if they don't have a place to to put actual seats vs seats available. In my eye, we should not be paying royalties on seats that might as well not be there since they cannot be occupied.


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## rochem (Feb 26, 2011)

lparks1 said:


> The sample schedule we had was to load-in at 7:00am on Thur, Have the lights hung, gelled, sets screwed together, flying scenery rigged by 1:00 - then do a light focus from 1:00 - 3:00 and then a tech run from 4:00 - 6:00 with a full cast dress from 7:00 - 9:30 or so.


 
Make sure you look very carefully over the IATSE contract. I can't speak for your local, but if you were doing your show here, that schedule would need some modifying. For one, the vast majority of locals will require a one hour lunch break after 5 hours of work - which is at noon for you. Also, some locals charge overtime if the call begins before 8am or after 11pm, which this one does. And if you're gonna have the same guys there all day, you'll run into more meal time conflicts and a lot of overtime. Also, keep in mind that these guys are not going to be intimately familiar with your show and your set. If you plan on bringing a group of your own people to help with load-in, make sure this is acceptable. Because of the nature of their work, these IA guys probably aren't gonna go off on their own and make assumptions about what needs to be done - instead, they'll stand around until you tell them what to do so they don't risk messing something up. But as long as your set wasn't too big or complex, theres a chance you could finish in 6 hours assuming all the kinks were worked out in advance.

However, I almost laughed when I read the times you had allotted to lighting. What is your plan for lighting? Will your LD be making a custom plot that the venue would hang in advance? Guess what, this is gonna cost you more hours. Are you gonna try to hang/circuit/gel all the lights during that 6 hour load-in time? Or are you using a fully rep plot? In all honesty, with these time constraints I wouldn't even consider having a custom plot made. Maybe you can add a few specials and change out gels in the rep plot, but you simply don't have enough time for anything more. If you're lucky, the rep plot will be in focus for the most part, so your focus session might only be 15-20 minutes, focusing specials and fixing up anything that needs fixing. But if you plan to do anything more than "lights up, lights down," you're gonna need more than 2 hours of lighting cueing time. The time you spend waiting in between cues, talking cues through with Stage Management, waiting for scenery to change, and waiting for the cast to get in place will quickly eat up your two hours.

I'm not saying you can't do it - I've actually done a show very similar to this with a rented house, IATSE labor, and a one-day load-in. Since I was a member of the local that was working the show, I was able to get lots of accommodations, such as being able to pre-cue the entire show before load-in and making small modifications to the rep plot. Even with that, the production values were not high and the load-in was hectic and stressed. Just don't expect to be putting on a theatrical spectacle with one day in the space.


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## lparks1 (Feb 26, 2011)

Thanks Michael...
I really have no experience with this myself. This was something James, our Associate Artistic Director, suggested might work if we had a well put together plan. As for the plot, the grid would be stripped upon our arrival at the venue. They have a house plot - but this venue does more bands than than theare - so it's not really plotted or gelled for a typical theatre production. 

Perhaps this would not be such a wise idea after all... That's why I wanted to ask to get the opinion of industry professionals.


> hang/circuit/gel all the lights during that 6 hour load-in time?


I hung and gelled all of the instruments for Narnia (albeit only 30 of them) by myself in less than 4 hours - and it was in the house that required a scaffold to reach the grid. Not trying to brag or anything .


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## DuckJordan (Feb 27, 2011)

lparks1 said:


> Thanks Michael...
> I really have no experience with this myself. This was something James, our Associate Artistic Director, suggested might work if we had a well put together plan. As for the plot, the grid would be stripped upon our arrival at the venue. They have a house plot - but this venue does more bands than than theare - so it's not really plotted or gelled for a typical theatre production.
> 
> Perhaps this would not be such a wise idea after all... That's why I wanted to ask to get the opinion of industry professionals.
> ...


 We just got done with a hang and focus of 80 fixtures it took us 6 hours with a pro crew and a prepared LD if anything would have gone wrong or wasn't prepared ahead of the time add 2-3 hours and we had a nice catwalk, lift and flyable elecs


sent from my Droid incredible using tapatalk.


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## jstroming (Feb 27, 2011)

A few notes from someone who has been on the production end dealing with union calls for years...hopefully this will give you some ideas to save some $$$....

RE: Rep Plot:
1> If the rep plot is included in your package and it's preset before you get there, you can just bounce in linesets and gel/adjust as needed, as was mentioned earlier. This would be ideal.
2> If the rep plot is included in your package but they're expecting you to pay for the stagehands to set it up (maybe they had another event the night before that didn't use it, etc) you have a few options depending on how far you want to take it, and how much $$$ you have as wiggle room if the venue won't budge. I have argued with salespeople and theater managers (both before and after the event) that if I am paying for a "complete" lighting package (as termed in the contract with them) then I expect a working lighting system for X amount of dollars as termed in the contract. I have both won this battle and lost this battle. You need to make sure you have the money to cover the labor if you lose.
3> If you get no rep plot as part of your rental or you decide to hang and wire fixtures from scratch, as others have said you have to have all your **** in perfect order. See below for some advice on that.

RE: Labor Ethic
1> You have to take into account the track record of the labor you'll have, and how nice they decide to be when your loading in. Stagehands and stewards WILL absolutely try to slow things down (whether their IA or not) if they have some leverage over you or you piss them off. Yes it sucks, but that is the unfortunate state of stagehand labor in our industry. Bring donuts, coffee, and expect to bend over. They might be thrilled to have the work, or they might be in a crappy mood from their load-out last night. You don't have the wiggle room in that schedule, or the leverage of being a big show to bust balls if their in a bad mood. Take that into account.
2> Hire a local IA guy who is on your side, YOU bring him in and pay him. I do this every large $100,000+ production budget show I'm a part of in a union venue, or if I'm under a time crunch. If you have a friend who is a higher-up in the union, pay him twice as much as he's worth to make your life easier....he will make sure the young guys work hard and keep the older do-nothings in line. I even bring in my IA contacts in certain cities to non-union calls where I pay them (alot) to keep them happy the next time I come through the city and into a union house. This is the dark-side of the industry but it's good for you to know about.
3> Make sure your "carloaders" (nifty workaround some locals use to get around collective bargaining agreements with teamsters who wont allow the term "truckloaders" to be used, again only in some jurisdictions, but I find it funny) make sure they are NOT rolled into the next call. This is highly unethical, and ALOT of locals will do it if they think the people coming in are inexperienced. What this means is, everybody knows a truck will only take an hour to unload. But, the loaders are on a 4-hour minimum. If those same 4 guys are on the stagehand call as well and they start working after the truck is unloaded, then they roll through to the next call. Technically you are paying one guy for 2 jobs which is a big no-no. I actually don't bring it up with the steward before load-in or while the trucks are being unloaded. I specifically wait until AFTER I see them starting working on the second call. Then you can go to the steward , act shocked that this would be happening because it's so unethical. Then he'll be trying to get back on your good side the whole show. The one time I had a steward go at it with me about this topic, I told him the entire point of having loaders separate from stagehands was because they were specialized crafts (yeah gave him a taste of his own medicine!) and that if he had a problem with it I was going to bring it up with the national. An hour later we were best friends.

RE: Meal Times/Minimums
1> Someone mentioned the 1 hour lunch. Don't forget the 15 minute break after 2 or 2:30 into the call, which stagehands love to stretch out to 20 or 30. I almost got into another shouting match with a crew-chief (non-union) who took 30 minutes with his guys. I "inquired" (in so many words!) why the 15 turned into a 30, and he insisted that they could only smoke in one area of the convention center, and that walking to and from that area wasn't included in his break. ***hole. So keep things like that in mind.
2> Your contract may have a union to non-union ratio. It might or it might not. This means you can bring in non-union hands in certain ratios (usually 1:1 or 2:1) that will save you $$$ and probably time, if you can rehearse with those guys in your other space. Look for that in your contract.

OK well the lounge by my apt stops serving food at 10:45pm so I got to jet! Hopefully this helps!


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## sully151 (Feb 27, 2011)

You have to think about the actors too. It is really hard to rehearse 3-6 weeks to only get a weekend worth of performance. 

I find the show doesn't even hit its stride before week 2.


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## lparks1 (Feb 27, 2011)

> Your contract may have a union to non-union ratio. It might or it might not.


There terms in the contract read:
*Stage Labor*
It is understood and agreed that management for some events will use non-union or voluntary stagehands. The Lessee and the Technical Director and/or union representative will discuss the number of union hands and volunteer hands that will be needed on an event by event basis. It is understood that if union labor is involved, all parties will abide by the contract between the Buskirk-Chumley Theater and IATSE Local #618.

For a rock concert event our professional company did a wile back we only HAD to employ the union tech director. Same with Les Miserables concert coming up. As such, there really is not a union requirement at all for events rented into the venue, but you can choose to use union hands under their contract. If we ended up spreading tech over 3 or 4 days I would probably opt not to use IATSE, as that would really put us over budget.


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## jstroming (Feb 28, 2011)

That's pretty ridiculous the way it's written there. In the future, make sure you have a minimum or ratio written into the contract, or that you have a copy of the CBA or labor contract the union has with the venue BEFORE you sign the contract.

IF you are in a city-owned facility the labor contract SHOULD be public record. I have been Assistant PM on some shows where the production company has had to go to court to get the contract released. Usually if you ask in a government facility, they will call up the city superintendent who will call a city lawyer and fax it over to you. In a privately owned facility I have been told it's a state-level law of whether or not this has to be disclosed.

Again, I'm taking this to an extreme that I'm sure you won't have to worry about, but it's something to consider AND know about in case it ever does happen to you.

Now to your specific contract:
1> Their labor rates are *DIRT CHEAP*. I mean crap $21/hr for a union stagehand is about as cheap as you get. The only place I've seen cheaper is Mobile, AL which is $17.75/hr straight time. The reason why they didn't put the minimums in the contract is probably because who the hell would bring in outside labor when their IA rates are so cheap HAHA.
*VERY IMPORTANT:* Assume an additional 25% on top of the $21/hr rate for their pensions, insurance, retirement in disney world, etc. 

2> I would venture to say that anybody who works directly for your organization should be fine to work the call. Although that's not written into the contract, that is where I would say the line is. In certain venues they have to be "full-time" employees, and in certain venues they only have to be paid directly by the Production Company. Again you have to ask to verify this.

3> The fact that you have done shows there with only 1 guy there on behalf of the facility means that the union has a "weak-hold" on the venue. I would insist (always nicely, of course) that you get the same terms as the Les Miz show if you're comparable or smaller in terms of size.

4> YOU and your people are still subject to the terms of their contract, which means you still have to take lunches, breaks, etc at certain times. If you fail to take the break, or come back from lunch early DO NOT START WORKING. I was doing a show in Miami where one of my Road guys came back from lunch about 10 minutes early and started messing around with the video racks. Well I got a very nasty verbal assault by the steward who then insisted he was "really helping me out" by not charging me a meal penalty. Sleazebag.

Negotiating with venues and unions is an absolute game. Typically the contracts are worded in such a way that you really have your hands tied behind your back when you walk in the door. Then they act like their really helping you out by letting you do certain things that are commonplace everywhere else. So in order to level the playing field, producers and productions look for every loophole possible. Wording is all-important in e-mails and phone calls. Always word things like "About 4 plasmas" or "close to a dozen fresnels". Then your not outright lying. The game when you need to save $$$ is stretching the truth as far as possible. NEVER outright lie. When you get caught in a lie you will want to kill yourself.


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## lparks1 (Feb 28, 2011)

> Their labor rates are *DIRT CHEAP*. I mean crap $21/hr for a union stagehand is about as cheap as you get. The only place I've seen cheaper is Mobile, AL which is $17.75/hr straight time.


Yeah, IATSE in this town (Bloomington) has very good rates for the production companies. The local road-house (3,000 seat university auditorium) that brings in touring shows has their basic stage hand rate at $19/hour -- although there are more specialized job classes there (riggers, flyment, electricians, etc that make more) and there labor calls are usually much much higher than at the Buskirk.


> or that you have a copy of the CBA or labor contract the union has with the venue BEFORE you sign the contract.


I had not thought of this before... but it does say in the agreement we signed that we must abide by their IATSE contact. I would think that if they refused to show us the contract, then we could not personally be held liable for breach of it -- since we were refused access the contract. For instance, a company cannot say "you must agree additional terms - you just can't see what those terms are"... However, they are all very nice and I doubt they would refuse to show the contract too us... I'll find out if I can get a copy.


> Ouch. Unless you guys REALLY have your stuff together that is going to be a huge push.


One thing to also keep in mind that the shows done by the TYA company will most always be under 1 1/2 hours -- sometimes only 1 hour. As such, we could 2 or 3 full rehearsals in the time it would take to run 1 full length musical rehearsal -- so we can actually have much more "rehearsal time" the it would appear on the surface -- at leas 2-3x more than a full length musical in the same span of time.


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## jstroming (Feb 28, 2011)

lparks1 said:


> I had not thought of this before... but it does say in the agreement we signed that we must abide by their IATSE contact. I would think that if they refused to show us the contract, then we could not personally be held liable for breach of it -- since we were refused access the contract. For instance, a company cannot say "you must agree additional terms - you just can't see what those terms are"... However, they are all very nice and I doubt they would refuse to show the contract too us... I'll find out if I can get a copy.
> .


 
Since it does say you agree to abide their contract with the local, you should be given access to it. This is unusual, as it is usually worded that you agree to abide by the work rules in the Venue Production Guide (or similar), which basically sums up the contract WITHOUT giving the client the actual contract.

The reason they keep them separate and don't show clients is because the rates are often different, as the theater may charge a mark-up on labor rates. If the labor is costing them $17/hr, they charge the client $21 and make $4/hr off each guys head. This is why they may not want to share it with you. Also, the fact that rates at your arena are $19/hr reaffirms my belief they are charging a mark-up. This is very common.

But you're right they put that wording in there so you should be given access to it.


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## derekleffew (Mar 3, 2011)

(Sorry to the OP for the hijack.)

jstroming said:


> ...3> Make sure your "carloaders" (nifty workaround some locals use to get around collective bargaining agreements with teamsters who wont allow the term "truckloaders" to be used, again only in some jurisdictions, but I find it funny) ...


While your theory may be humorous and even true in some cases, I think the term "carloaders" comes from "rail car loaders" and not as IATSE's way of distinguishing itself from Teamsters. Historicallly, shows travelled by train long before trucks existed (who hasn't heard that flats can't be more than 5'-9" wide or they won't fit in a rail car?). Of course, teamsters were originally mule team drivers.


The First Teamsters: Building a Union | International Brotherhood of Teamsters (IBT)
Today, that union has the reputation for organizing anything and everything it can, whether it be freight-related or not (such as table games dealers in Las Vegas, for example).


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