# New light board for a high school



## atm999 (Jan 12, 2009)

I know that there is already a similar thread, but it is outdated and my situation is not the same so I am starting a new one. I am the TD for a high school in central Illinois. Our lighting system from 1987 (Strand CD80 rack of 96 dimmers and a Strand Lightboard M) has been number one on my list of things to upgrade/replace, and not that the controller card in the old AMX rack has fried, the director (who controlles the checkbook) finally agrees with me. Because we are strapped for cash, the dimmer rack is not getting thrown out, we are buying a CD-2000-A retrofit kit from Johnson systems to make the rack DMX compatible. This means that we also need a new board. I have a friend who is willing to sell us a Leviton MC 24/48 for around 2k, but I am also looking to the possiblility of a board which is better for moving lights, which we will want to purchase at some point in the next 5 years or so. A convention and online research have led me to look at the Strand preset Palette and the ETC Ion boards. I am looking for feedback suggestions, and other advice which pertains to these other other recommended boards. 

Obviously we have only conventional lights since we are moving from a 1987 AMX system, but I want a board which will allow that to change in the near future. Now for one big complication: tech at this school is entirely student-run. I am a senior there right now, and will be leaving at the end of the school year. However, my assistant TD will be attending college ten minutes from the school and will be able to help them for the next four years with shows. Nevertheless, the board which we get must be user-friendly to students who do not have the same technical backround as my ATD and I (we went into business together selling computers and DJing dances and other such venues). The director is the only staff member involved in theatre at this school, and he will be leaving at the end of the 09-10 school year. He is not technically inclined, and we do not yet know who will replace him, so we can't count on the staff to be highly proficient with lights, either. Any help with this is much appriciated!


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## venuetech (Jan 12, 2009)

I have 2 CD-80racks (1986) I Investgated the johnson rerofit some time ago and recall it was not within my budget range. i ended up geting an AMX to DMX converter from Doug Fleenor Designs, that got me on line with dmx in control. 
any control board you get is likely to be there for the next ten years. I think the ETC Ion would serve you very nicly

as you forsee the real trick is going to be getting all this in place before the staff/student change. 

how much can you spend on this?


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## Gretsch (Jan 12, 2009)

I recommend the ETC Ion. Its easy to learn, and easy to program. Thats just my two cents.


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## renegadeblack (Jan 12, 2009)

Can I ask what may be a stupid question? You said that you have 96 dimmers? You said that you were looking to buy a Leviton MC 24/48? Wouldn't that mean that you have 48 dimmers unaccounted for? I might be wrong but...


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## Footer (Jan 12, 2009)

I assume you are either in the area of U of I or ISU, all of these schools are beginning to get rid of their old Expression line consoles. It might be a good idea to contact these schools and see if they have a console they want to rid themselves of. Otherwise, keep talking to Grandstage, they do good strand installs and back up the consoles with great support. 

I have the Johnson upgrade in one of my theatres, and it works flawlessly. However, strand has a retrofit kit out that will upgrade it with the same interface used in the C21's that will allow you to use shownet and have better monitoring and control of the dimmers.


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## atm999 (Jan 12, 2009)

In logical order of answers to your questions:

I saw that Strand made a retrofit kit, but from what I can tell it is now discontinued. 

Because the controller card of the rack is broken, a DMX to AMX converter won't work, but that was my original plan until the card broke. 

Because the system does not work as it is now, we should be able to get some additional funding from the school for this, but the budget should still be kept as low as possible. 

Yes, I'm in the U of I area. I did call the KCPA (their performance center) and here's what I found: They have four expresses, but they rent a hog whenever thay need something better for a specific show. Because that only happens a couple of times per year, they are not going to upgrade any time soon.

Why do you recommend the ETC Ion?


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## thommyboy (Jan 12, 2009)

I have just made the change from a strand 300 to the ETC Ion a few months ago and have found it to be one of the most intuitive boards for a new user. That however was with the purchase of a fader wing to go with it. For those less technically inclined you can set all the looks you would normally use on the submasters and just use those. Where as those who have a the desire to go beyond can expand to multiple cue stacks, a robust effects engine and pretty solid moving light control capabilities.


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## juanboquin (Jan 12, 2009)

I have worked with the Hog 1000 boards and i think those are extremely student friendly. As long as they read the manual and play around with it for a little bit you wouldn't have too much of a problem "passing the torch" when it comes to the light board. I personally learned the basics without reading the book in about ten minutes and i read the book in a couple of days, played with the board and now I'm pretty good. i would recommend it strongly.


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## Darthrob13 (Jan 12, 2009)

Retorfit kits from Strand are still available for CD-80 and CD-80AE racks. (And SV)

They've been around going on 30 years...what's 20 more.


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## Esoteric (Jan 12, 2009)

Strand CD-80 are workhorses and the only thing besides Fresnels that I will buy with the Strand label on it. So definatly keep them and contact your local lighting dealer about the retrofit kit. I know you can still get them here in Dallas whether they are out of production or not. With a messed up controller, that is pretty much your only choice.

As far as consoles, there are two that you should look. The ETC Ion is a great for what it does, but if you are looking for a theater desk, I would look into getting a used Express. If you are looking for future moving lights and the future is in the next 5 years or so then the Ion is a nice system and also look into a used Hog either 500 or 1000 (unless you really want a new one, there are still a few floating out there, I got one for a client not too long ago). All these solutions will run you in the $5k vicinity, but plenty of room for expansion. My only worry is that while the Hog is not difficult to use, it is not exactly intuitive for someone with little or no technical background and I know how in a high school environment knowledge can be passed down from generation to generation but it can also be lost with one bad link the chain.

Mike


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## icewolf08 (Jan 12, 2009)

Esoteric said:


> As far as consoles, there are two that you should look. The ETC Ion is a great for what it does, but if you are looking for a theater desk, I would look into getting a used Express. If you are looking for future moving lights and the future is in the next 5 years or so then the Ion is a nice system and also look into a used Hog either 500 or 1000 (unless you really want a new one, there are still a few floating out there, I got one for a client not too long ago). All these solutions will run you in the $5k vicinity, but plenty of room for expansion.



I can see that we are going to get along so well... 

Unless you just can't round up the money don't buy a used Express. I would consider the used Hogs, but not with much more than an Express. All of those consoles are old technology, the tech in the Express is 13+ years old. You wouldn't go out and buy a 13 year-old computer, so why would you buy a lighting console that old. Express is discontinued, and while ETC will support it until no one uses them anymore it just doesn't make any logical sense to buy one.

Ion is a theatre desk, and it is really the ideal solution (in ETC land) for people in the OPs position. It comes in at $5-$6K for the basic model and a fader wing which is less than or equivalent to what you would have paid for a new Express. It is going to provide you much more in the way of future-proofing than any older used console will. There are probably features of Ion that you may never use, but the same could be said for any Hog console as well.

The Strand consoles are very nice as well, though I am a little leery about their support. I did like what I saw when we had a demo, and the consoles ring in at a lower price point. Ease of use is about the same as the Ion. 

Whichever way you go, you will end up with more console than you need for the moment. However, in choosing one of the new generation consoles (Ion, Palette, Eos, etc) you will set yourself up better for the future than buying used.


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## Esoteric (Jan 12, 2009)

icewolf08 said:


> I can see that we are going to get along so well...
> 
> Unless you just can't round up the money don't buy a used Express. I would consider the used Hogs, but not with much more than an Express. All of those consoles are old technology, the tech in the Express is 13+ years old. You wouldn't go out and buy a 13 year-old computer, so why would you buy a lighting console that old. Express is discontinued, and while ETC will support it until no one uses them anymore it just doesn't make any logical sense to buy one.
> 
> ...



No I agree with you on the Ion Alex (although not on the Palette as for yet). But if you are patient and look around you can pick up an Express for the $2k range. Some people just don't have the money to drop $5k at one time. If you do I would recommend the Ion or Hog 100%. If not then look into a used Express.

Your analogy with computers doesn't work in this case. No I would not buy a 13 year old computer, but 13 year old computers are not still in wide use (or even an industry standard) and compatible with current programs. The Express and Hog consoles are.

Again, if you are in the $5k-$6k range, the Ion and Hog are the way to go. If you are in the $2k range and like to have an actual console, you are either going to have to bargain shop for a used Express or go for a Leprechaun. If you are in the $2k or below range and don't mind not having an actual console, then I would go with a Hog PC. If you are in the $500 or under range, then I would go for the Chamsys MagicQ because you can use it as a computer based console, but expand it to an actual console later.

Different options for different users. Depends on your price point.

Mike


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## derekleffew (Jan 12, 2009)

renegadeblack said:


> Can I ask what may be a stupid question? You said that you have 96 dimmers? You said that you were looking to buy a Leviton MC 24/48? Wouldn't that mean that you have 48 dimmers unaccounted for? I might be wrong but...


The only stupid question is one that has been asked multiple times previously, whose answer is easily found in a search.

From the Leviton Product Spec Bulletin:

> • 24 two scene or 48 single scene individual
> channel sliders
> • 384 control channels for conventional dimmers
> • 512 control channels for intelligent fixtures
> ...



So the first 24 or 48 channels are available on sliders; the rest, up to 384, are available via the keypad. So all dimmers can be "accounted for," just not each one on its own slider. In any case, it is unlikely that all dimmers will be used for every show (a survey done in 2005 of over 100,000 dimmers shows an average of 17% of 120V dimmers go unused); a softpatch is desirable to put channels in a more logical order; and multiple dimmers can be patched into a single control channel (the cyc lights may take 9 or 12 dimmers, but can be patched into three [red, green, blue] channels.
Note that the above is not to be construed as an endorsement for the Leviton MC 24/48. In this particular case, it would be an interim step at best, and money wasted.

As long as I'm on the subject: atm999--this is really a decision your director, and not you, should be making. He/she will have to live with this decision long after you're gone, especially true in this case. While is nice that your student ATD will be attending college ten minutes away from the high school, it places an undue burden on both him and the school if he's the only one who knows how to operate the fancy new computer light board (of which either the Strand Palette or ETC Ion would do nicely).

Do what you can to not only show your director this thread, but also to get him/her involved in ControlBooth. We all agree you don't want your high school saddled with another Lightboard M for the next twenty-two years (although it was spectacular in its time).


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## Shillyer (Jan 12, 2009)

My theater just picked up an Ion this year and I have to say if you have the money to spend it is a great board. I would recommend getting a fader wing especially if you are teaching students to use it, they seem to work much better when they have actual sliders instead of just a screen and buttons.

My only current complaint with the board is its offline software. It is basically an exact port of the software running on the board. While in theory this sounds good I find it is hard to get around on when you are missing all the extra buttons and rotary knobs.


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## atm999 (Jan 12, 2009)

The target price is around 4k, but a little more might be found for a 5-6k console. How does the Leviton MC 24/48 compare to an Express? You guys clearly like the Ion, but not many have commented on the Palette. Is there some site that has done a review of both consoles? I have looked but not found any. As for my director making the decision, He will be gone before my ASM, so although we must obviously agree before we buy, he won't be around to use the console for very long. One other thing, where would you guys recommend buying the Ion (and a fader wing) if we go that way, the cheapest I have found so far is 5.2k for just the console without wings. The same question goes to anyone who recommends the Palette. Thanks again for all of the insight.


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## Shillyer (Jan 12, 2009)

atm999 said:


> The target price is around 4k, but a little more might be found for a 5-6k console. How does the Leviton MC 24/48 compare to an Express? You guys clearly like the Ion, but not many have commented on the Palette. Is there some site that has done a review of both consoles? I have looked but not found any. As for my director making the decision, He will be gone before my ASM, so although we must obviously agree before we buy, he won't be around to use the console for very long. One other thing, where would you guys recommend buying the Ion (and a fader wing) if we go that way, the cheapest I have found so far is 5.2k for just the console without wings. The same question goes to anyone who recommends the Palette. Thanks again for all of the insight.



Our Ion ran about 7k I believe, that was for the desk and 2 19inch LCD's. you can probably find a much better deal than that though. We also ordered a 2X10 fader wing which I believe was somewhere around $1000. In our case we were in a bit of a time crunch to get the new board so what we paid is probably not the cheapest you could find it.


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## icewolf08 (Jan 12, 2009)

atm999 said:


> You guys clearly like the Ion, but not many have commented on the Palette. Is there some site that has done a review of both consoles? I have looked but not found any.



I know that somewhere on CB I wrote a pretty detailed review of the Strand Palettes, do A search, I forget what I called the thread. We had a demo a couple months ago.

If you really want I could probably write up a real review/comparison, but I would need a little bit of time to collect my thoughts and make it as objective as possible.


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## atm999 (Jan 12, 2009)

icewolf08 said:


> I know that somewhere on CB I wrote a pretty detailed review of the Strand Palettes, do A search, I forget what I called the thread. We had a demo a couple months ago.
> 
> If you really want I could probably write up a real review/comparison, but I would need a little bit of time to collect my thoughts and make it as objective as possible.



I searched for reviews before posting, and I just looked again now with no luck. If you wouldn't mind doing a full comparison that would be awesome, but I don't expect you to spend that kind of time on this, I was just asking if anyone knew of an existing one.

Shillyer, we have monitors (I assume it uses standard DVI or analogue computer monitors) so that would not be part of our expense. We would, however, want at least one fader wind.


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## AndrewWebberley (Jan 12, 2009)

I would also like to recommend the ETC Ion console for your school. It has a far more intuitive interface then the Hog consoles and is designed to be used in theatre. Even if you don't have any moving lights yet the Ion is fantastic for straight conventional show and in the future you will be able to add any new kind of fixture you want. The Ion also teaches you and your students the basics of the entire Eos line of consoles. The Eos console is the big sister to the Ion and is one of the most amazing consoles on the market right now. Everything you learn on the Ion works on the Eos. This allows someone to scale up through the Eos line in their career. 
I don't mean to be a Eos/Ion freak but I love programming them.

Thanks,

Andrew Webberley
Professional Training for the Lighting Industry


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## lieperjp (Jan 12, 2009)

atm999 said:


> I searched for reviews before posting, and I just looked again now with no luck. If you wouldn't mind doing a full comparison that would be awesome, but I don't expect you to spend that kind of time on this, I was just asking if anyone knew of an existing one.
> 
> Shillyer, we have monitors (I assume it uses standard DVI or analogue computer monitors) so that would not be part of our expense. We would, however, want at least one fader wind.



No, you will need monitors as the ION utilizes touch screens. Someone may correct me, though, as I don't know if you actually NEED the touch screens.

Also, the thread Alex referred to was called Strand Demo Day and can be found HERE.

CB User BHarrell is also the one who conducted the Demo. You might be able to try sending him a PM if you're interested.


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## jmabray (Jan 12, 2009)

You don't need Touchscreens at all for the ION. The desk supports their use, but by no means are they needed. You will need DVI monitors though. You cannot use an adapter to convert the Monitor signal from DVI to analog, like you can on the EOS, though. They will have to be DVI monitors.


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## rochem (Jan 12, 2009)

lieperjp said:


> No, you will need monitors as the ION utilizes touch screens. Someone may correct me, though, as I don't know if you actually NEED the touch screens.



You do not need touch screens to work with the Ion. A local school near me just got a new Ion this year upgrading from an old NSI MC 7532. They bought two (non-touch screen) 19" LCD monitors with the board as well as one fader wing. They also hooked up a mouse to the board. After a little while of using it I found that I didn't miss the touch screen capability of the Eos as much as I would have expected. An interesting point is that after just a couple days of training, the students there knew enough about the Ion to program and run a show fairly well. Even though the two boards were very different, they still managed to pick it up quickly. Also, the fader wing is invaluable as it is great for one-offs and when less experienced people are at the board.


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## atm999 (Jan 12, 2009)

I found a comparison does between the consoles, but it was made by Strand so it is obviously biased. One thing that stands out to me is the vast difference in channels between the Palettes and the Ion. The palettes come with only 100 channels to start with, while the Ion have over 1000. Is there something that I'm missing here?

```
Preset Palette-Sub Palette - Ion Compare
                                                                   Preset                             Sub                              ETC
Feature                                                            Palette                           Palette                           Ion
                                                                     Yes                               Yes                             Yes
Graphical User Interface
                                                         100 Standard up to 1500        250 or 500 standard up to 1500          1000-1500-2000
Channels
                                                                   12288                             12288                      1000-1500-2000
Network DMX Outputs
                                                                      2                                 2                                2
Local DMX outputs
                                                                 Unlimited                          Unlimited                         10000
Cues
                                                             Tracking or Preset                Tracking or Preset              Tracking or preset
Cue control
                                                                 Unlimited                          Unlimited                          999
Cue Lists
                                                                 Unlimited                          Unlimited                        4X1000
Groups
                                                                                               Hard disk capacity                     1000
                                                             Hard disk capacity
Preset Focus Groups
                                                                    3000                              3000                            1000
Macros
                                                            single or two scene                   single scene                        None
Preset operation
                                                               24/48 or 48/96                          128                            None
Manual Faders
                                                                  16 or 32                             128             None std. Optional plug in modules
Submasters
                                                                 Unlimited                          Unlimited                          300
Virtual subs
                                                                                           Pile on, Inhibit, Exclusive   Pile on or inhibitive if installed
                                                         Pile on, Inhibit, Exclusive
Sub Functions
                                                         Per channel and per att.           Per channel and per att.                   200
Simultaneous Fades
                                                               Intel Centrino                    Intel Centrino                         ??
Processor
                                                                Yes 40 GB                          Yes 40 GB                           Yes
Hard Disk
                                                                                                 Front and rear                  Rear and Top
                                                               Front and rear
USB support
                                                                     Yes                               Yes                             Yes
Full Tracking Back up
                                                                      5                                 5                                4
Multi console
                                                                      4                                 4                                1
Handheld remotes
                                                                     Yes                               Yes                             Yes
Network HHR
                                                                     Yes                               Yes                             Yes
Wireless Remote
                                                                     Yes                               Yes                              No
Full Function Remote
                                                                     Yes                               Yes                              No
Remote interface on any notebook - PC
                                                                     Yes                               Yes                             Yes
Remote multi DMX
                                                                     Yes                               Yes                              No
Network printing
                                                                     Yes                               Yes                             Yes
File Server support
                                                                                                Mouse encoder                     4 Encoders
                                                              Mouse encoder
Attribute controls
                                                                   Mouse                             Mouse                Must use two of 4 encoders
X-Y axis control
                                                                     Yes                               Yes                            None
Integrated mouse for GUI control
                                                                     128                               128                              99
Attributes per fixture
                                                                Up to 1500                         Up to 1500                    Up to capacity
Attribute channels
                                                                     200                               200                              99
Fixture libraries
                                                                     Yes                               Yes                           Limited
Abstract Moving Light Programming
                                                                     Yes                               Yes                              No
Dynamic color and attribute displays
                                                         Yes including filter match        Yes including filter match                  Yes
Color picking
                                                                     Yes                               Yes                              No
WYSIWYG autofocus support
                                                                     Yes                               Yes                             Yes
16 bit DMX
                                                                     Yes                               Yes                             Yes
16 Bit programming
                                                                 Unlimited                          Unlimited                           32
Profiles
                                                                 Unlimited                          Unlimited                          999
Effects
                                                                     Yes                               Yes                              No
Moving Light Effects
                                                                                                                            None – parallels console
                                                                     Yes                               Yes
Discrete Remote Video
                                                                  Up to 2*                          Up to 2*                        Up to 2 **
Local Video
                                                                     Yes                               Yes                             Yes
Dynamic Channel Display
Integral Help                                                        Yes                               Yes                             Yes
Full Architectural control interface                                 Yes                               Yes                              No
* Available on Palette II
** A single DVI video connector is supplied that requires a special video splitter for two displays
```


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## Esoteric (Jan 12, 2009)

Drop me a line ATM.

Mike


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## jmabray (Jan 12, 2009)

I gotta tell ya, That chart is awful hard to read as it is. Can you provide a link?

From what I can tell, it's not entirely true either. For instance, Moving light effects - the Ion definitely has those. 16 standart built in, but you can create hundreds more of your own. Color Picking - ION also has Color filter matching... Remote Interface on any notebook pc - ION has this as well....

I know that the Strand consoles, are good consoles. I have nothing against them at all. What I really dislike is the out right half-truths that are told in comparison charts like this. Lets all tell it like it is, and then let the end user decide on the whole package.


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## derekleffew (Jan 12, 2009)

atm999 said:


> ...How does the Leviton MC 24/48 compare to an Express? ...


Both consoles have similar philosophies, and both consoles are lacking in their support of non-dimmer devices. Factor in the Express's popularity (best selling console ever made), reliability, and ETC's 24/7/365 phone support (plus the fact that they have and will, continue to support every console they've ever made, including maintaining "loaner" stock); and there is no contest.


atm999 said:


> ...One other thing, where would you guys recommend buying the Ion (and a fader wing) if we go that way... The same question goes to anyone who recommends the Palette. ...


See the Collaborative Article: Best Dealers From Whom To Purchase Equipment - ControlBooth. The purchase price should not be the sole criteria in this decision.


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## atm999 (Jan 12, 2009)

jmabray said:


> I gotta tell ya, That chart is awful hard to read as it is. Can you provide a link?
> 
> From what I can tell, it's not entirely true either. For instance, Moving light effects - the Ion definitely has those. 16 standart built in, but you can create hundreds more of your own. Color Picking - ION also has Color filter matching... Remote Interface on any notebook pc - ION has this as well....
> 
> I know that the Strand consoles, are good consoles. I have nothing against them at all. What I really dislike is the out right half-truths that are told in comparison charts like this. Lets all tell it like it is, and then let the end user decide on the whole package.



http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/185594/Preset Palette- sub Palette - Ion.pdf I got it in an e-mail from Strand, so I don't know the original address, I just put it in dropbox hosting.


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## gafftaper (Jan 13, 2009)

I have a Strand Classic Palette and I've seen demos of Ion. To me it's difficult to recommend one over the other. They are extremely similar in how they operate, what you can do with them, and the ease of learning. There is very little you can do on one that you can't do on the other. If one console is lagging behind on a feature it's easy to simply add it into the next software update. 

Differences: 

Strand's Horizon software has a different approach than ETC's that creates a few interesting differences. It translates equipment settings into normal language. So you control a gobo's rotation in terms of RPM, clockwise, counterclockwise. Pan and tilt are in degrees. Color is in terms of the actual color, not dmx values of CMY. If you have a Mac 600 that goes down and you swap in a Studio Color 575 it thinks in terms of color not dmx values so it automatically adjusts to give you the same color (anybody know if Ion can do that). If you are using a moving light and want it to move from point A to B it automatically adjusts the path so it moves in a straight line instead of an arc. 

The Ion gives you encoder wheels which some consider a MAJOR advantage for using movers. However the Strand makes up for it nicely giving you multiple alternatives such as up and down arrows, a variety of preset values, mouse wheel, you can use the mouse for Pan and tilt and "drive" the mover to the position you want. Also that real world terminology of the Horizon software seems to me to make it easier to make adjustments you want. I'm sure if you were using a lot of movers it would get old to not have encoders but if you are just occasionally using dmx toys it doesn't seem like a big deal to me. However, if you are using a lot of movers you should be buying a Hog or Ma. 

In general you will find yourself using the mouse and keyboard a lot with the Strand software. With Ion you'll find very little reason to leave the console. I have the feeling if you were doing some serious high speed programming the Ion would be faster because of this. 

Strand only has one console in the Pallet line that comes with encoders and I believe it's more expensive than an Ion. 

With the Palette you have a wide variety of interfaces to choose from, all using the same software and it's cheaper to get started with an entry level model around $4k. Remember most of us really need that wing pane on Ion, People around CB say you are looking at a minimum of $6k for an Ion and one wing panel. 

Speaking of the wing panel. This can be a huge advantage or an annoying feature depending on your use. If you are in a rental shop it's awesome because you can rent someone a console with all the submasters they want. If you are just a small theater I find it annoying that you've got to pay an extra $1k to have such a basic feature as 16 subs. You can run them all over the place. I've heard of people setting up wing panels in multiple locations to control the console... which is pretty slick. The expansion ability is very cool. 

ETC has been the industry standard in lighting instruments and consoles for 15 years or so. Purchasing an Ion is "following the heard" and there is great safety in numbers. Even though ETC has quit making express consoles there will be people with parts and service available for MANY years. The same will be true of Ion down the road. 

ETC has the best reputation in the industry for customer service, but as I've said Strand has worked very hard to make sure all my problems are taken care of over the last year. I've heard complaints from the past but I've got nothing but good things to say about Strand. ETC offers a 24/7 tech support by phone. Strand offers M-F business hours support. 

Remote focus units. My Strand has a PDA that connects to the console via a wireless router. I can run and record cues or subs, look at levels, turn instruments on and off as singles or groups. It's an outstanding interface. It's also an expensive interface. ETC's approach is no bells and whistles. They tell you to head to the store and buy a 900mhz cordless phone. You can turn on and off channels buy dialing them on the phone. Nothing fancy but it works for about $15. Both have their advantages and disadvantages. 

Don't leave it to us to tell you which to buy. Both consoles are excellent. Contact your local dealer and get a demo of both consoles to see which one you like best. 

Price. No two people reading this will get the exact same price. The price you pay depends on two things: 
1) How low of a profit the dealer is willing to take on the purchase. If you are buying a lot of things at once or you are a regular customer and spend lots of money with that dealer, they will be willing to lower the percentage of profit on your purchase. When I was a high school teacher I made VERY good friends with the custom sales guy at the local theater supply. He liked me and gave me the same rate as the big opera house in town got... even though I only spent a few hundred dollars a year there. BE NICE TO Your dealer! 
2) Dealers pay different rates to the manufacturers based on how many units they sell. So a small dealer often can't compete with the prices of a large one. 

Last year I purchased about $125k of new equipment for my new theater. I received prices that I will never see again because I was buying so much at once. So while we can recommend a dealer or two for you to contact you won't get the same price I do. 

Also don't underestimate the importance of a relationship with your local dealer. On Saturday night with a half hour before house opens the local dealer can fly in and save the show by bringing you the part you need. A national dealer can't do that.


atm999 said:


> I found a comparison does between the consoles, but it was made by Strand so it is obviously biased. One thing that stands out to me is the vast difference in channels between the Palettes and the Ion. The palettes come with only 100 channels to start with, while the Ion have over 1000. Is there something that I'm missing here?



ETC's philosophy is to start you out with a high channel count. Strand starts out low and sells 100 and 512 channel upgrades.


jmabray said:


> From what I can tell, it's not entirely true either. For instance, Moving light effects - the Ion definitely has those. 16 standart built in, but you can create hundreds more of your own. Color Picking - ION also has Color filter matching... Remote Interface on any notebook pc - ION has this as well....



I think that chart's old. I also think they are being very careful about how they word things. If I remember right the color filter match wasn't available on the original Ion software but was added very soon after the console came out. As for the remote interface, don't you have to have to have some sort of a dongle or USB key to use the remote pc feature with Ion? I believe that dongle is free by the way. With Strand you don't need a dongle. So technically they are correct as ANY computer can log onto their network but Etc requires you to have the dongle. Sounds like the chart was written by a sleazy politician.


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## derekleffew (Jan 13, 2009)

gafftaper said:


> Remote focus units. ... ETC's approach is no bells and whistles. *They tell you to head to the store and buy a 900mhz cordless phone.* ...


Not true. Net3 Radio Focus Remote (RFR). A cordless phone remote will be an alternative, but I don't think it's been implemented yet for the Eos/Ion, although it has for the Congo/Jr.


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## atm999 (Jan 13, 2009)

Thanks very much gafftaper for your informative post. I just have two questions which came up. First, someone told me that the preset Palette does not use a keyboard, while the other Palettes do. Is this true, and if so, why? Second, what is the difference between the Palettes and the Palette II's which I see just coming out? Is it just software bells and whistles which I could get later if I need, or is there some signifficant hardware change? Thanks again for all the info. I'm going to try to narrow down the Strand choices to one or at the most two, then ask for an on-site demo side-by-side with the Ion. That may not be for a month or two, but once it happens I will post reviews of what I have seen back here.


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## icewolf08 (Jan 13, 2009)

atm999 said:


> Thanks very much gafftaper for your informative post. I just have two questions which came up. First, someone told me that the preset Palette does not use a keyboard, while the other Palettes do. Is this true, and if so, why? Second, what is the difference between the Palettes and the Palette II's which I see just coming out? Is it just software bells and whistles which I could get later if I need, or is there some signifficant hardware change? Thanks again for all the info. I'm going to try to narrow down the Strand choices to one or at the most two, then ask for an on-site demo side-by-side with the Ion. That may not be for a month or two, but once it happens I will post reviews of what I have seen back here.



All of the Palette series consoles are capable of using a keyboard. Whoever told you that you don't need it for the Preset Palette was probably referring to the fact that it has lots of sliders so you can bring channels up manually instead of keying them in. This may be a useful feature, but I still recommend that you get used to the keypad entry as it is faster and more efficient. All of the Palettes have an onboard keypad and support USB keyboards.

As for the Palette IIs, is is just the new version of the hardware. All of the software is the same across the line. If you end up wanting a Strand console, you are probably better off getting whatever is newer, it will last you the longest, however the older (by only a year) model runs the same software.

As far as demos, that is a good idea. You may find it politically impossible to actually get both ETC and Strand consoles in at the same time. They each want you to buy theirs, and it may turn into a battle between reps to push you one way or the other. In fact, it is probably for the best to not tell your Strand source that you are looking at ETC, and vise-versa. You really want to get as unbiased a demo as possible.


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## gafftaper (Jan 13, 2009)

What he said. 

Also it may be that the dealer you want to purchase from doesn't carry both ETC and Strand. When you ask for the Strand demo you probably won't be able to get the specific model you are asking about. Never fear they all work exactly the same in terms of software, keypad, and keyboard. They just have different sliders configurations.


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## atm999 (Jan 13, 2009)

Footer said:


> I have the Johnson upgrade in one of my theatres, and it works flawlessly. However, strand has a retrofit kit out that will upgrade it with the same interface used in the C21's that will allow you to use shownet and have better monitoring and control of the dimmers.



Do you know where I could find information about this retrofit kit? I have looked online, including on Strand's site, but to no avail. We have the original CD80 AMX rack with 96 dimmers.


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## venuetech (Jan 13, 2009)

Johnson Systems Inc.


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## atm999 (Jan 13, 2009)

sorry, I should have been more clear. I can't find the original STRAND retrofit card, I already have a quote for the Johnson Systems one, I'm just checking if the Strand still exists and would be cheaper.


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## atm999 (Jan 13, 2009)

Of the consoles that we have been looking at, the preset Palette II is the only one have has manual channel faders, the others only have subs. Do you guys think that keeping manual faders for a high school is extremely important, or do know of high schools which solely use keypad entry? Again, I am comfortable with both, but I need to make sure that future students will be as well.

Edit: I am still looking for info on the original (not the Johnson) retrofit kit for the Strand CD80 rack.


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## Esoteric (Jan 13, 2009)

atm999 said:


> Of the consoles that we have been looking at, the preset Palette II is the only one have has manual channel faders, the others only have subs. Do you guys think that keeping manual faders for a high school is extremely important, or do know of high schools which solely use keypad entry? Again, I am comfortable with both, but I need to make sure that future students will be as well.
> 
> Edit: I am still looking for info on the original (not the Johnson) retrofit kit for the Strand CD80 rack.



I will get you info on an original retrofit kit after I get the pics tomorrow.

I would say that no, it makes no difference. You can program the subs for easy use for people who don't want to mess with the keypad (and label them stage wash, house lights, etc), and then set up a different set of subs for your shows. Your students will learn what you teach them. Unless you teach in an exceptional district, the first time they are on a computer lighting console is in high school. They will learn what they are taught. How many kids are not familiar with a keypad from their computer or a ten key? In fact I think it would be more intuitive for them than sliding something up and down (which is completely unnatural unless you are making toast) and then having to use the console proper to save cues. Why have them leave the keypad at all?

Mike


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## atm999 (Jan 13, 2009)

derekleffew said:


> From Grand Stage, Chicago: C21_Upgrade_kit.pdf.



That is exactly what I was looking for, thank you very much!


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## NickJones (Jan 14, 2009)

Hi, had the same problem, the Strand Pre-set pallet has no ML compatability (kindof does if you want to get super technical but its another story) Im a HS techie too, and pre-set boards are not great because you just can't expand them. You can download the OS (operating system) for the ION, its called EOS and its really good, simmilar to the strand, again, depending on how much you know a sub-master bank would be good, but i would recomend getting a remote focus remote first. The ION is easy to use for simple conventuanal fixtures, but is hugeley flexible when it comes to ML's, LED's ect. Really good consoles. And is networkable, meaning you can sit anywhere and controll the lights. Usefull for when teachers start to annoy you, if they walk into the booth, to find no one there, but the lighting going as planned. As for new heads of drama coming in and your budget, schools and tech-money is horrible! Audio gets all this money and ..... Don't get me started. Good luck, and you can download the EOS software for your computer here. http://www.etcconnect.com/docs/docs_downloads/console/Eos-Console-v143.zip This shoud give you a chance to muck about and start to understand the sytax, if you need any more help, send me a PM, might be able to help you. 
Good luck
Nick Jones


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## thommyboy (Jan 14, 2009)

derekleffew said:


> Several CB members have recently acquired Ions, and don't seem to be lamenting lack of individual handles for each channel



And actually in response to some requests from smaller programs ETC has now included an initial programing of subs 1-300 as channels 1-300 so one COULD use enough fader panels to fully replicate the function of a preset style board. Why you would really want to is another story


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## icewolf08 (Jan 14, 2009)

NickJones said:


> Hi, had the same problem, the Strand Pre-set pallet has no ML compatability (kindof does if you want to get super technical but its another story) Im a HS techie too, and pre-set boards are not great because you just can't expand them. You can download the OS (operating system) for the ION, its called EOS and its really good, simmilar to the strand, again, depending on how much you know a sub-master bank would be good, but i would recomend getting a remote focus remote first. The ION is easy to use for simple conventuanal fixtures, but is hugeley flexible when it comes to ML's, LED's ect. Really good consoles. And is networkable, meaning you can sit anywhere and controll the lights. Usefull for when teachers start to annoy you, if they walk into the booth, to find no one there, but the lighting going as planned. As for new heads of drama coming in and your budget, schools and tech-money is horrible! Audio gets all this money and ..... Don't get me started. Good luck, and you can download the EOS software for your computer here. http://www.etcconnect.com/docs/docs_downloads/console/Eos-Console-v143.zip This shoud give you a chance to muck about and start to understand the sytax, if you need any more help, send me a PM, might be able to help you.
> Good luck
> Nick Jones



Every model of the new Strand Consoles runs exactly the same software, they just have different buttons and channel counts. So the Preset Palette has exactly the same ML functionality as the LightPalette VL, it just can't support the same number of channels and it doesn't have encoders. All you really need is to plug in a trackball and you will be plenty happy with ML programming. This is much like the 300 Series. Also, all of the Palette Series consoles can be expanded within the limitations of the processor. So, A preset palette can never handle as many channels at a LightPalette VL, but it can handle more than most high schools and even some professional theatres will ever need.

Also, by your definition of networkable, so to is the Palette series of consoles. You can connect them to a variety of devices from network nodes to other consoles. So, if you want to run your consoles from multiple locations you can as long as you run Cat5 to the console and have a DMX node on your network. This is the same for Ion.


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## rochem (Jan 14, 2009)

This discussion on keypad entry versus using sliders is actually quite interesting, however it's not exactly what the OP was looking for. Could this maybe be split into it's own thread so we can continue to discuss it without bringing this thread too far off-topic?


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## derekleffew (Jan 14, 2009)

rochem said:


> This discussion on keypad entry versus using sliders is actually quite interesting, however it's not exactly what the OP was looking for. Could this maybe be split into it's own thread so we can continue to discuss it without bringing this thread too far off-topic?


Applicable posts moved here: http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/lighting/10688-channel-levels-slider-keypad-entry.html .


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## TheGuruat12 (Aug 29, 2010)

My HS got a new lightboard about seven years ago, an ETC Express 48/96, and I would highly recommmend it.

If you can find a used Express for a good deal, go for it. The thing is great for ease of use (I am actually a sound guy, but this console was easy enough for me to learn in less than one week). It also supports advanced features for those who want to figure out how to use them (DMX extension, Architectural Control Systems, Presets, etc.)


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## kiwitechgirl (Aug 30, 2010)

Uhhh, this thread is well over a year old and chances are the OP already has a new lighting desk...


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## Soxred93 (Aug 30, 2010)

Additionally, the Express is over 15 years old, and is not a great recommendation to school looking ot get a new one. Getting one of ETC's newer consoles, such as an Element, is a much better idea for a new light board for a school. If that's not in your budget, a Smartfade would be your next option.


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## gafftaper (Aug 31, 2010)

The Express, although the most popular light board in history, was discontinued about two years ago. It may still be possible to find a new one sitting in someone's warehouse, but purchasing one at this point would be unwise for many reasons. Do a little searching and you'll find a lot of posts here on the phasing out of the Express and it's replacement originally by Ion and now Element.

On the other hand, if you don't have a lot of money and are looking for a used console, an Express should be at the top of your list.


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