# Lifts



## midgetgreen11 (Oct 16, 2009)

Our maintenance department is filtering all lift rentals that take place in our auditorium. The Supervisor of Plants & Grounds has stated that according to the company's insurance policy all lift users must be trained by the rental company on the equipment _and_ wear a harness at all times while using the lift.

I have two questions in response to this:

a) Doesn't the law require any operator to be 18 years of age? In our case all operators would be students as was in the past.

b) Wouldn't a harness in an aerial lift make it _more_ dangerous than it already is. (i.e. if the genie falls, its pulling you with it)

Thanks


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## Footer (Oct 16, 2009)

There is no law nationally that states that the operator must be 18 that I know of, but you could have local regs that state that. There is also another level to this, the rental company. Its the rental company's gear, they can say who uses it in their rental contract. It is pretty standard practice to have to be "approved" to use a lift of any kind from a rental company. The 18 thing does not surprise me either. I would conform to these 2 rules because if something does happen when you are up, you will not be covered. 

The fall arrest rule has been debated and debated for as long as I can remember. I know people who won't clip in, I know people who will, and I know people who will only clip in if its off to a truss or batten. However, under OSHA regs you must clip in. A genie lift is considered a boom lift, and OSHA says you have to be clipped in when in a boom lift.


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## BDS0111 (Oct 16, 2009)

There is no law that I know of that says an operator has to be over 18 years of age. Furthermore, I have been renting lifts for many years and have national accounts with many firms and I have never heard of a company restricting who can operate equipment based on age, however...I have never really looked at the fine print in regards to this, I have just never "heard" of it!

Secondly...OSHA does not apply to students! Unless it has changed, there is no OSHA reg that requires an operator to be in a harness and clipped in when operating a lift that has a proper guard rail system in place. If you do not have the guard rail, then you need a harness. If you see workers in a harness while in a lift, it is because it is a company policy. Of course, it is NEVER a bad idea to wear a harness. And yes, if you are in a upright man lift, the harnes is going to do nothing for you if you fall over, because you are going to most likely take the basket with you.


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## jwl868 (Oct 16, 2009)

I can’t comment on (a).

Regarding (b), OSHA has different regulations for different types of “lifts”. (OSHA has distinct regulatory definitions for different types of “lifts”. However, out in the real world, many people stray from these distinct definitions.) I suggest that you visit the US OSHA website (Occupational Safety and Health Administration - OSHA HOME PAGE) and search for and read their material (regulations and standard interpretations) about “scissors lifts” and “aerial lifts”. After that, check your state’s OSHA regulations to see if they have anything different. Those regs are probably found in State Department of Labor.

Joe


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## Les (Oct 16, 2009)

When was the last time you saw a well-maintained, properly used and firmly-footed personal lift tip over for just no reason? The only time you are in danger of tipping is when you are not using the lift properly (or on under the correct conditions i.e. level flooring, proper floor support, etc) or defeating safety features. I think you are more likely to fall out of the basket by climbing up the first rail in order to get a gobo in that furthest instrument than you are to have the lift tip over when being used properly. I say, clip in.


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## Van (Oct 16, 2009)

That is a tricky area, and opinions that you get here are just that, opinions and not legal statements. As Footer pointed out there are several layers of liability to this question. The schools liability to protect it's students. The maintenance departments liability to protect it's works and the Rental company's liability to protect itself. Usually an agreement can be arrived at between a school and a rental company when it is proved that adequate training will be provided by the school for the use of machinery like lifts. Laws vary from State to State and town to town, but concession are usually made for individuals 16 and above for the operation of lifts and lift trucks. I would insist however that if you are to be trained that you receive a card indicating that you received such training as this can be a first step towards the world of Professional endorsements that you will need to acquire to compete in the work force.

On the "Clipping-in" issue. Again as footer stated OSHA rules state that you must be tied off when operating a lift period. there have been numerous debates over this issue, one was actually teed off by an accident that occurred here in Portland at the "new" addition on the Airport. in a nut shell; When a piece of structural steel collapse the only person to survive was the one who was not clipped in, the others were all clipped off to a safety wire attached to the framing member they were on and were dragged down to their death. The unclipped worker was able to jump off the member and onto an adjoining concrete floor. 
It should be noted however that this is/was an extremely rare case. in almost ever study persons who are clipped in and ride down with a piece of collapsing equipment are protected by the inherent protective properties of being surrounded by that "cage". People who are not clipped in tend to get crushed under the equipment, the most common cause of death in fork lift accidents is a persons head being crushed under the roll cage bars when they are not wearing a seat belt, and are therefore much safer being tie-off to the equipment.


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## Footer (Oct 16, 2009)

BDS0111 said:


> Secondly...OSHA does not apply to students!


That does not mean that it should not be followed. 


BDS0111 said:


> Unless it has changed, there is no OSHA reg that requires an operator to be in a harness and clipped in when operating a lift that has a proper guard rail system in place. If you do not have the guard rail, then you need a harness. If you see workers in a harness while in a lift, it is because it is a company policy. Of course, it is NEVER a bad idea to wear a harness. And yes, if you are in a upright man lift, the harnes is going to do nothing for you if you fall over, because you are going to most likely take the basket with you.



That is not totally true. Scissor lifts do not require fall protection because they are considered scaffold. However, genie lifts are not. They are considered boom lifts and therefore require it. This is to keep you from bouncing out of the basket during a sudden bump or something along those lines. OSHA does not have a hard and fast rule on vertical man lifts, instead it borrows from both the scaffold section and the boom lift section leaning towards the boom lift section. 



> *Tie-off requirements for equipment covered by the aerial lift provisions (§1926.453)*
> Section 1926.453(b)(2)(v) provides that employees must be tied-off "when working from an aerial lift." A body belt is permitted only if it is part of a restraint system (a system that prevents the worker from being exposed to any fall). Otherwise, a body harness must be used and the equipment must meet the requirements of a fall arrest system in §1926.502.
> 
> The purpose of this requirement is to protect employees from being bounced out/off of the basket/work platform when maneuvering to a work location, or placing themselves in a position in which they could be exposed to a fall by climbing/leaning over and placing their center of gravity outside the basket.


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## midgetgreen11 (Oct 16, 2009)

Footer said:


> I would conform to these 2 rules because if something does happen when you are up, you will not be covered.



I have every intention to, I was just concerned as I'd heard the 18-years-or-older rule somewhere and wasn't sure if it was true. The company is coming in to train our crew and give us certification cards to use their equipment.

Also, the type of lifts we would be using would be either a Genie AWP series or JBL model similar, or a SkyJack scissor lift with removable railings to fit it through the house door. Our cove is above a level surface and has no catwalk so we use a lift to reach it.


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## derekleffew (Oct 16, 2009)

Lots of good information here: Fall Safety - FAQ.


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## BDS0111 (Oct 16, 2009)

Footer said:


> That is not totally true. Scissor lifts do not require fall protection because they are considered scaffold. However, genie lifts are not. They are considered boom lifts and therefore require it. This is to keep you from bouncing out of the basket during a sudden bump or something along those lines. OSHA does not have a hard and fast rule on vertical man lifts, instead it borrows from both the scaffold section and the boom lift section leaning towards the boom lift section.


 
Thank you for the correction! I should have been more clear, I was speaking of Scissor Lifts only but failed to mention that. Also, Genie makes many different lifts. Many people generically refer to vertical mast lifts (Such as the AWP Series) as Genie's... If I understand correctly, these vertical mast lifts DO NOT require the worker to be tied off. This is what I understand straight from OSHA. Anyone else have any insight into this??


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## Van (Oct 16, 2009)

BDS0111 said:


> Thank you for the correction! I should have been more clear, I was speaking of Scissor Lifts only but failed to mention that. Also, Genie makes many different lifts. Many people generically refer to vertical mast lifts (Such as the AWP Series) as Genie's... If I understand correctly, these vertical mast lifts DO NOT require the worker to be tied off. This is what I understand straight from OSHA. Anyone else have any insight into this??


 I'm not sure about the OSHA Regs but Genie does provide and suggest tieing off to points in the basket of all AWP type / vertical post man lifts.


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## Floridaskye (Oct 16, 2009)

Although there are many OSHA regulations for various lifts, generally these regulations are never followed. As long as I've worked in the industry I have never met anyone who tied themselves to something that would probably tip over on top of you if you fell off it. Also how many people actually working with Genies automatically disable outriggers so they can be pushed around the stage or try to use the Genie to lift trussing or take down an orchestra shell.

If you read the warning on the Genie it specifically says if you remove the outriggers or push the Genie while extended it will cause death. Not May, Will. I don't think that's stopped anyone though as I've worked with national tours over the last four years and most of the time they extend the Genie, remove the outriggers, and go about focusing the electrics without ever coming down. Not to mention overweight people jumping up in the genie bucket to get it to lift.

This said if we then start to worry about OSHA regulations as pertaining to lift operations we should probably stop doing a lot of things.

*[FONT=&quot]Robert J. Coward[/FONT]*
*[FONT=&quot]Technical Theatre Director[/FONT]*
*[FONT=&quot]Epstein Center for the Arts[/FONT]*


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## Van (Oct 16, 2009)

Floridaskye said:


> Although there are many OSHA regulations for various lifts, generally these regulations are never followed. As long as I've worked in the industry I have never met anyone who tied themselves to something that would probably tip over on top of you if you fell off it. Also how many people actually working with Genies automatically disable outriggers so they can be pushed around the stage or try to use the Genie to lift trussing or take down an orchestra shell.
> 
> If you read the warning on the Genie it specifically says if you remove the outriggers or push the Genie while extended it will cause death. Not May, Will. I don't think that's stopped anyone though as I've worked with national tours over the last four years and most of the time they extend the Genie, remove the outriggers, and go about focusing the electrics without ever coming down. Not to mention overweight people jumping up in the genie bucket to get it to lift.
> 
> ...


 
I gotta say it's to know where to start to respond to a post such as this. 
I can tell you, you've never worked in any of the venues, and especially not the IATSE venues that I have toured through over the last 20 years. Are there times when it would be a lot easier to go about disabling saftey devices ? Sure. Is it a "common" practice? Not on my watch. As a TD you should know it is your responsibility to ensure the health/safety of those on your crews. Personally I find this post offensive and more than a little irresponsible. 
Getting off my soap box now. 
< un-clipping first>


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## LightStud (Oct 16, 2009)

Floridaskye, I have notified the Fort Lauderdale Area Office of your post and attitude toward Safety in the Workplace. You may expect a visit from them shortly.http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/members/floridaskye.html


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## kiwitechgirl (Oct 16, 2009)

First, I just want to say that I am not in the USA and have never (nor am I likely to!) worked there - so what I have been told is from a UK and New Zealand perspective - so the laws and regulations will be different. I use vertical mast and scissor lifts on a reasonably regular basis and have the appropriate IPAF certificate/card/whatever you want to call it for them - never use boom lifts or cherry pickers or anything like that.


> The purpose of this requirement is to protect employees from being bounced out/off of the basket/work platform when maneuvering to a work location, or placing themselves in a position in which they could be exposed to a fall by climbing/leaning over and placing their center of gravity outside the basket.



This makes sense, but surely if you're using a non-driveable vertical mast lift *correctly and safely*, you will be in no danger of being bounced out of the basket when manoeuvering to a work location, because you will be at ground level when it's moving, and you will be in no danger of being exposed to a fall because you will keep your centre of gravity within the basket and not climb on the railings? When I did my IPAF training for the vertical mast lift, the instructor basically said "you don't need to be clipped in, in fact it's more dangerous if you are because if you fall out, you'll pull the thing over on top of you." I totally understand it if you're in something which can be driven at height, but given that vertical mast lifts are not designed for it and should not be pushed around at height, surely this requirement serves no purpose in this situation? 

The whole "removing the outriggers" debate is one which I don't want to get deeply embroiled in, but I will say that one venue I work at has a Cougar lift which has so-called "special" mode - it has a keylock which if activated means the pressure switches on the outriggers are disabled so you can go up without them. This was put in because the lift is often used up against a wall, and with all four outriggers out, you cannot reach what you need to because the bucket is too far away from the wall. The bypass is *never* used in normal situations, and only the venue tech has the key for it - so what is more dangerous - using the lift with two outriggers up against a wall and staying safely in the bucket, or using it with all four outriggers and having to lean dangerously out of the bucket to reach what you need to? I should add that the lift does have the appropriate inspections, and the inspectors are perfectly happy with this arrangement.


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## photoatdv (Oct 17, 2009)

Umkay... I wrote I nice (or not!) long post last night that I seem to have forgotten to post!

LightStud, did you really call OSHA over a post on the INTERNET! Personally I see that as SO far over the line it's not really funny. I've got to say also that Floridaskye post was a little ridiculous, but let's face-- that does happen. Should it-- NO NO NO, but really it's not the worst thing going on in a production house in the world. This should be a safe place for people to ask for help and discuss practices! Not to go over someone's head. Yeah, several people offered to contact Headcrabs administration, but they did so with his full help and support.

Really stuff that bad has been posted on here and all the other technical forums-- and everyone doesn't go blow the whistle. This will CERTAINLY make me think twice about posting ANYTHING that you might decide to take into your own hands.

I could conceivably see instances where something was SO dangerous, outside of practices, and WOULD kill someone that the senior team would have to do something... but not like this taking joy out of it!

Don't take this wrong, I certainly advocate doing something about overtly dangerous situations to see... in person. There is a BIG difference between reporting something you see, and something you read on a forum.

My $0.02


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## derekleffew (Oct 17, 2009)

Van said:


> ...
> Getting off my soap box now.
> < un-clipping first>


No Van, you cannot un-clip until you are implanted on terra firma. Never leave yourself unprotected while at the dizzying, unfathomable heights of your soapbox.


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## Floridaskye (Oct 17, 2009)

Van said:


> I gotta say it's to know where to start to respond to a post such as this.
> I can tell you, you've never worked in any of the venues, and especially not the IATSE venues that I have toured through over the last 20 years. Are there times when it would be a lot easier to go about disabling saftey devices ? Sure. Is it a "common" practice? Not on my watch. As a TD you should know it is your responsibility to ensure the health/safety of those on your crews. Personally I find this post offensive and more than a little irresponsible.
> Getting off my soap box now.
> < un-clipping first>



Obviously you missed the point of my post. What I was saying is that we need to focus on using equipment the right way as an industry before we start quoting OSHA regulations. Also I never said I personally disabled any safety devices. You try telling an IATSE crew not to disable the safetys on their devices and see what you get. As a note these were equity tours that I am speaking of that came through the rental house I used to work in where I was just a lowly technician.


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## Floridaskye (Oct 17, 2009)

LightStud said:


> Floridaskye, I have notified the Fort Lauderdale Area Office of your post and attitude toward Safety in the Workplace. You may expect a visit from them shortly.



I look forward to their visit so they can see just how safety conscious my Theatre is. You need to learn the difference between someone complaining about a problem and someone actually causing a problem.


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## Footer (Oct 17, 2009)

Floridaskye said:


> You try telling an IATSE crew not to disable the safetys on their devices and see what you get.



You go to the BA and get a new hand in there. 

I have had to tell the BA of an IA to get out of my shop because he was not wearing the proper safety gear. He had to comply otherwise he would have been out of a job. It really is that simple.


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## FMEng (Oct 17, 2009)

I see OSHA regs quoted and arguments ensue over whether they apply. OSHA regs are often superseded by more stringent regulation by states, school districts, and even insurance carriers. Furthermore, even if OSHA doesn't apply to non-employees, shouldn't volunteers and students be SAFE? Those regs should be a MINIMUM standard in every work and school environment, whether they legally apply or not.

Furthermore, we can argue over whether being harnessed into the basket is a good idea, but most of the time it is required. Those rules, like most safety regs, were written in blood and hundreds of accidents were studied as they were created. We don't always know better than the regulators.

I think it is great that they want to train you. Take the training and buy some harnesses (in a variety of sizes), lanyards, and hard hats. (Hard hats for the ground crew, too.) The rental company may charge a small fee for the training, but it is brief and easy.


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## Floridaskye (Oct 17, 2009)

Footer said:


> You go to the BA and get a new hand in there.
> 
> I have had to tell the BA of an IA to get out of my shop because he was not wearing the proper safety gear. He had to comply otherwise he would have been out of a job. It really is that simple.



I agree that it's a good principal to do such things and in my current position I probably would ask them to leave my shop. However as a technician on a broadway tour telling them to leave the theatre for using a Genie improperly and costing the rental house thousands of dollars would have undoubtedly cost my job. Now you may say I should have upheld the standards regardless of the cost but in todays job market I simply couldn't afford to be self righteous. I applaud anyone who would give up their livelihood over regulations but I'm not one of them.


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## derekleffew (Oct 17, 2009)

It was just a few years ago that I stopped a road-crew truss spot op about to climb a wire rope ladder without a harness. I merely said "Where's your harness?" and he stormed off, grumbling about "how they would have to have to hold the show to wait for him, yada yada." But I could tell he knew I was right and he should have known better than to try. I was not in any position of authority, just a deck hand assigned to hold the bottom of the ladder. 

Less than two minutes later, while the other guy who arrived wearing a harness was climbing, he came back wearing the harness. He made it to his light in plenty of time.


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## FMEng (Oct 17, 2009)

kiwitechgirl said:


> The whole "removing the outriggers" debate is one which I don't want to get deeply embroiled in, but I will say that one venue I work at has a Cougar lift which has so-called "special" mode - it has a keylock which if activated means the pressure switches on the outriggers are disabled so you can go up without them. This was put in because the lift is often used up against a wall, and with all four outriggers out, you cannot reach what you need to because the bucket is too far away from the wall. The bypass is *never* used in normal situations, and only the venue tech has the key for it - so what is more dangerous - using the lift with two outriggers up against a wall and staying safely in the bucket, or using it with all four outriggers and having to lean dangerously out of the bucket to reach what you need to? I should add that the lift does have the appropriate inspections, and the inspectors are perfectly happy with this arrangement.



The answer is simple. You use the lift according to the manufacturer's recommendation. If the wall switch was factory installed, go ahead and use it. If not, throw away the key. Chances are, the operation manual explains what to do against a wall. If you don't have the manual you can download it from the manufacturer's web site.


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## Floridaskye (Oct 17, 2009)

derekleffew said:


> It was just a few years ago that I stopped a road-crew truss spot op about to climb a wire rope ladder without a harness. I merely said "Where's your harness?" and he stormed off, grumbling about "how they would have to have to hold the show to wait for him, yada yada." But I could tell he knew I was right and he should have known better than to try. I was not in any position of authority, just a deck hand assigned to hold the bottom of the ladder.
> 
> Less than two minutes later, while the other guy who arrived wearing a harness was climbing, he came back wearing the harness. He made it to his light in plenty of time.



I'm glad you spoke up, and I agree with you completely that things like this should be taken seriously. My stance on all of this is simply that people need to think of safety before convenience. My problem in the industry right now is that people don't and when you do confront them most of the time you get nowhere. When you see everyone doing something wrong like using a genie lift without the outriggers or being pushed around the stage in the upright position or something simple as people not wearing close toed shoes it seems almost impossible to do anything about it. On one occasion I did mention to the ME on the RENT tour that he should be using the outriggers. He simply responded that they do it all the time and if I had a problem they could replace me. I told my TD at the time and he simply told me to let them work. As a TD now myself I have control and in my own space I run a tight crew and a safe crew. I think there has been a lot of confusion overall as to what I was trying to say.


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## cdub260 (Oct 17, 2009)

Floridaskye said:


> I think there has been a lot of confusion overall as to what I was trying to say.



And let that be a lesson to all of us about the importance of proof reading before we post.

When I read your initial post, it certainly sounded to me like you were telling OSHA what they could do with their regulations. Had you worded your post a little differently, I probably would have gotten your real meaning.

Thank you for clarifying your position in subsequent posts.


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## Grog12 (Oct 17, 2009)

You all are overlooking one matter in this subject when it comes to the age limitation.

Insurance Company.

It has nothing to do with the law. There is no law that you can't rent a car unles you're 25. Insurance agencies prevent you from renting the car.

The insurance company wants you to be a "responsible" adult who can make informed descisions on how to die accidently.


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## soundman (Oct 17, 2009)

Grog12 said:


> It has nothing to do with the law. There is no law that you can't rent a car unles you're 25. Insurance agencies prevent you from renting the car.



You can rent a car when you are under 25. It simply costs an extra $30 something a day. 

On the subject of insurance in a scenario where you are working for someone and not following the rules and reg for the activity, using a saw with out eye protection, working at heights with out proper equipment what ever causes you to be injured I would imagine you will have a hard time convincing someone to pay for your medical care. Your health insurance will want it handled by work, as you were working. If work's insurance company can prove you were acting in an unsafe way they will not pay your claim. 

Insurance companies do not make profit when they pay out on claims, do not give them any additional reasons not to pay you.


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## Grog12 (Oct 17, 2009)

soundman said:


> You can rent a car when you are under 25. It simply costs an extra $30 something a day.
> 
> .



Heh, didn't work that way when I was 23. Glad to know there's a way to do it now.


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## jstachowiak (Oct 17, 2009)

OSHA and the manufacturer's require a harness and lanyard in boom type lifts for cataputling protection as fall restraint and it is NOT fall protection nor fall arrest. 

If a lift tips over (or "upsets" as the JLG manuals state) you are likely dead or seriously injured of which the harness and lanyard does nothing to help your situtation or hurt your situation.

FIRST and FOREMOST get TRAINING from an Aerial Work Platform company or rental company that rents AWP equipment. Classroom should be about 2 to 3 hours and then there should be a hands-on session.

Regarding people 18 years old in these lifts, your insurance company for the company or institution will answer that question. I have this sneeking suspicion that the answer will be NO. Like "All the President's Men" follow the money. Who will pay if that student of 18 years old hurts himself? That is who will answer your question. 

While tipover or upset is a hazard you whould be worried about the most likely hazard is crushing your fingers or worse your body or head. 

Get professional training PLEASE. This is serious and a serious accident can happen to the untrained operator.


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## mstaylor (Oct 25, 2009)

The only time I have questioned an OSHA guy on lift rules was a couple of years ago. I was working in an 85ft lift beside a lagoon with a 6ft max depth. He said he wanted a full body harness plus a life vest in case I hit the water. I explained he wanted me tied to a machine with a vest designed to pop me up and out of the lift. Beside the fact that I could stand up in the water, he was insisting on devices that would work in opposite diections if I did hit the water and could lead to catastrophic injury. My last point was that if I was at height, I would hit the next building. They let me go. 
That is not the only run-in or argument I have had with OSHA but they are generally interp discussions. I am certified to certify ops on lifts and forks. I also install permanent safety equipment.


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## midgetgreen11 (Nov 7, 2009)

The lift company came back and said they will not train anyone without a valid driver's license or anyone under the age of 18. We have no access to our coves for this show now. Will the mention of the OSHA code help at all?


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## Les (Nov 7, 2009)

midgetgreen11 said:


> The lift company came back and said they will not train anyone without a valid driver's license or anyone under the age of 18. We have no access to our coves for this show now. Will the mention of the OSHA code help at all?



Probably not. Their lift, their rules. They should have designed your school better.


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## Footer (Nov 7, 2009)

Your up a creak on this one. Its not an unreasonable request on the part of the lift company. It could be possible to shop around for a company that will let you use it after being trained. If it makes you feel any better, most car rental shops won't let you rent a car until your in your mid 20's. Ok, that does not make you feel better, but... 

There was a school in Chicago that had this same access issue. They built catwalks and would not allow the students to go up in them. Somehow they convinced the school to buy them a VL1k to place every 3' across all of their battens that they could not access.


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