# hello from the Rockies



## Medryn (Jul 21, 2008)

I'm a bit of a jack of all trades. I can design sets and lights, build both of those and have a bit of experience with costume design and build. I staged managed, TA'd, designed a whole host of shows for my college before moving on to being a shop monkey in the Denver Area.

I'm also a Deputy District Attorney, so my time for theatre is unfortunately small.

I am currenltly working on designing a building a functional, portable faux castle for a medieval recreation group. It needs to be durable abd functional and light. So that's what brings me here. tips for my castle


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## gafftaper (Jul 22, 2008)

Welcome to the Booth Medryn! 

Be sure to post any specific questions you have about your castle in the scenery forum. My strategy would be to use foam either cut and glued to a substructure or carved... or a combination of both. Nothing like sheets of insulation foam from your local home improvement warehouse to make a cool rock wall. However it chips and breaks easily so if your set has to be portable that may be a problem. 

Van, our resident scenic guru will be along tomorrow and solve all your problems.


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## Van (Jul 22, 2008)

Welcome Aboard Medryn! I PM'ed you with a couple o'suggestions. Hey a DDA as a Technician! I've known a few lawyers who acted but never tech'd.
Remindas me of a joke I read yesterday;
An TD dies and reports to the pearly gates. St. Peter checks his dossier and says, "Ah, you're an TD -- you're in the wrong place." 
So, the TD reports to the gates of hell and is let in. Pretty soon, the TD gets dissatisfied with the level of comfort in hell, and starts designing and building improvements. After awhile, they've got air conditioning and flush toilets and escalators, and the TD is a pretty popular guy. 
One day, God calls Satan up on the telephone and says with a sneer, "So, how's it going down there in hell?" 
Satan replies, "Hey, things are going great. We've got air conditioning and flush toilets and escalators, and there's no telling what this TD is going to come up with next." 
God replies, "What??? You've got an TD? That's a mistake -- he should never have gotten down there; send him up here." 
Satan says, "No way. I like having an TD on the staff, and I'm keeping him." 
God says, "Send him back up here or I'll sue." Satan laughs uproariously and answers, "Yeah, right. And just where are YOU going to get a lawyer?"


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## derekleffew (Jul 22, 2008)

Medryn said:


> ...I am currently working on designing a building a functional, portable faux castle for a medieval recreation group. It needs to be durable and functional and light. So that's what brings me here: tips for my castle.


I suspect we have lots of tips, but need more information. Exactly what are the functions of a faux castle? To protect the occupants from the faux Moors?


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## Van (Jul 22, 2008)

derekleffew said:


> I suspect we have lots of tips, but need more information. Exactly what are the functions of a faux castle? To protect the occupants from the faux Moors?


Can you say "Faux Moors" I think Faux Gauls or Faux Franks would have been a much better choice .......


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## Grog12 (Jul 22, 2008)

Welcome to the booth from a fellow Coloradin...I'll be making my return home (specifically to Westminster) shortly! Hopefully I'll never have to see you as a DA...but as a TD.


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## Van (Jul 22, 2008)

Grog12 said:


> ..... Hopefully I'll never have to see you as a DA...but as a TD.


 

But now, if you ever do get in trouble.......


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## Medryn (Jul 23, 2008)

derekleffew said:


> I suspect we have lots of tips, but need more information. Exactly what are the functions of a faux castle? To protect the occupants from the faux Moors?



*grin* well actually....

The castle is used for foam boffer combat. It has to be durable enough that folks can climb on it and run in to it (occassionally, it shouldn't take too much of a deliberate beating, so we don't have to worry about faux battering rams). But at the same time portable enough that it can be set up, used for a weekend and then taken down fairly quickly. It also has to be able to be exposed to the elements during the time it is in use. Storage is also an issue. It needs to be take up as little space as possible when broken down.Cost is (as always) an issue as well. 

I am pondering using foam for the walls but am a bit worried about the abuse it may have to take in use as well as in transport.


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## derekleffew (Jul 23, 2008)

Ever worked with fiberglass before? You may be about to. It's actually kind of fun.


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## Medryn (Jul 23, 2008)

derekleffew said:


> Ever worked with fiberglass before? You may be about to. It's actually kind of fun.



I haven't. For some reason it seems intimidating


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## Spikesgirl (Jul 23, 2008)

Welcome to the Booth and nah, fiberglass isn't hard to work with. Just know what you're going to do and have everything ready before mixing stuff. I learned all about it when making a shower for SOUTH PACIFIC. It was a lot easier than it seemed that it would be.


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## Van (Jul 23, 2008)

Ahhhhhhh Now that I have more info..... Forget those PMs I sent you about Foam. Well actually you could still carve it out of foam < extruded polyethelene> then you're going to need to take it to, or have someone come to you, to spray the foam with "Pro-Coat" I'll have to dig for som more info for you, but basically Pro-coat is a two part sprayed coating used to treat foam. It adds a little weight but when set its hard as a rock extremely durable and still paintable. It's expensive and terrribly toxic < when being applied.> For Long term abuse it's really your only choice. Unless you did a Urethane filled Vaccu-form, which will probably cost more, weigh less, not hold up quite as well.


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## gafftaper (Jul 23, 2008)

What about that semi-rigid coating I see used to make the children's play toys at the mall. It's padded like foam but has a vinyl like skin. I get the feeling it's a sprayed on treatment over a solid frame. Any ideas?


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## Van (Jul 24, 2008)

gafftaper said:


> What about that semi-rigid coating I see used to make the children's play toys at the mall. It's padded like foam but has a vinyl like skin. I get the feeling it's a sprayed on treatment over a solid frame. Any ideas?


 I belive that is a version of Pro-coat. The biggest issue being long term paint retention. The vinyl covered stuff in the malls gets it's colors directly from the vinyl, as almost nothing will stick to vinyl, except my thighs on a hot day in a car that is 300 degrees inside.


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## derekleffew (Jul 24, 2008)

Van said:


> ...except my thighs on a hot day in a car that is 300 degrees inside.


I really didn't need *that* visual stuck in my head..."it's a hard knock life, for us. Steada treated, we get tricked"...


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## Medryn (Aug 4, 2008)

Alright, I need some more thoughts. If I decide not to go with foam for the walls, what thoughts do y'all have on facing material for the walls? I plan on doing hard studwalls out of steel to leg up the platfroms and create the walls. Thoughts on cost effective and durable facing? 1/4" ply or Luan are currently topping my list, but I had one vendor suggest tempered hardboard. Thoughts?


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## derekleffew (Aug 4, 2008)

Aluminum Honeycomb Panels.

*Good, Cheap, Quick. Pick any TWO.*


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## gafftaper (Aug 4, 2008)

Wow Haven't seen that aluminum stuff before. That's a cool option. I think I would take a real hard look at fiberglass before going with wood. A steel structure with fiberglass over the top would be really durable. I wouldn't trust Luan or hardboard to be strong enough. While you describe the structure as hopefully not taking a lot of abuse... it sounds like there is a possibility of it getting knocked around a bit. 1/4" would be strong enough to survive a fairly substantial accidental jolt. 

I think the lowest budget approach would be to build a steel tube frame and face it with 1/4", take hardboard and cut it into squares . Attach the hard board squares to the 1/4" ply to create some depth to your concrete blocks. Texture with Van's V.S.S.D. (Van could he skip the hard board squares and texture the 1/4" directly? Sounds a little more tricky to get it right). 

Should be strong and not terribly heavy. Remember that "light weight" and "strong" are words that can only be combined through the application of a lot of money.


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## Van (Aug 4, 2008)

gafftaper said:


> ........... (Van could he skip the hard board squares and texture the 1/4" directly? Sounds a little more tricky to get it right). .......


 As a matter of fact I'm getting ready to do some CMU walls < concrete block> with just VSSSD rollered out over the luan, after applying a base color and taping out the grout lines. It's doable, but ti might require quite a bit of pateints while waiting for a really thick coat of VSSSD to setup. 'Course you could use a bit more water putty in the mix to help it setup faster, or even a bit of Portland Cement, but thet would require a bit of expiremental time.


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## gafftaper (Aug 5, 2008)

Van said:


> As a matter of fact I'm getting ready to do some CMU walls < concrete block> with just VSSSD rollered out over the luan, after applying a base color and taping out the grout lines. It's doable, but ti might require quite a bit of pateints while waiting for a really thick coat of VSSSD to setup. 'Course you could use a bit more water putty in the mix to help it setup faster, or even a bit of Portland Cement, but thet would require a bit of expiremental time.



Just to clarify is that tape out the grout lines, layer on the VSSD over them, then pull the tape up while the VSSD is wet to reveal the lines and give them depth?


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## Medryn (Aug 5, 2008)

gafftaper said:


> Wow Haven't seen that aluminum stuff before. That's a cool option. I think I would take a real hard look at fiberglass before going with wood. A steel structure with fiberglass over the top would be really durable. I wouldn't trust Luan or hardboard to be strong enough. While you describe the structure as hopefully not taking a lot of abuse... it sounds like there is a possibility of it getting knocked around a bit. 1/4" would be strong enough to survive a fairly substantial accidental jolt.
> 
> I think the lowest budget approach would be to build a steel tube frame and face it with 1/4", take hardboard and cut it into squares . Attach the hard board squares to the 1/4" ply to create some depth to your concrete blocks. Texture with Van's V.S.S.D. (Van could he skip the hard board squares and texture the 1/4" directly? Sounds a little more tricky to get it right).
> 
> ...



I'm having trouble tracking down fiberglass panels, any thoughts? How much more durable do you think 1/4 ply will be than Luan? I am intrigued by the texturing idea, but texture is really secondary, getting the walls to be solid and stable is far more of a concern to the folks I am working with than the precise look. They'd probably settle for grey walls with black lines for the stone as long as the walls were sturdy.


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## Van (Aug 5, 2008)

gafftaper said:


> Just to clarify is that tape out the grout lines, layer on the VSSD over them, then pull the tape up while the VSSD is wet to reveal the lines and give them depth?


 Yes that is correct.


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## gafftaper (Aug 5, 2008)

You can put your knee or elbow through a sheet of 2 mm Luan or Masonite without a lot of effort. The 5 mm Luan is a little tougher to damage but not as strong as 1/4" ply. 

Another interesting option would be Coroplast. It's corrugated plastic... there are other manufacturers, contact your local plastic dealer and find out what is cheapest. Think sheets of corrugated cardboard but made from plastic. You've probably seen it used as garage sale signs. Well you can get it in full 4'x8' sheets. It wouldn't be as strong as 1/4", but it is probably as strong as Luan, it's also waterproof. 1" tubing and Coroplast might be a great option. Cost: google corrugated plastic and you'll find it for $34 a sheet with a 25 sheet minimum (call your local plastic dealer to see if you can avoid the minimum). 

Van what do you think?

EDIT:... OH this is cool stuff. Corocell expanded PVC in 3mm and 6mm sheets. Wonder how heavy it is.


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## Medryn (Aug 5, 2008)

gafftaper said:


> You can put your knee or elbow through a sheet of 2 mm Luan or Masonite without a lot of effort. The 5 mm Luan is a little tougher to damage but not as strong as 1/4" ply.
> 
> Another interesting option would be Coroplast. It's corrugated plastic... there are other manufacturers, contact your local plastic dealer and find out what is cheapest. Think sheets of corrugated cardboard but made from plastic. You've probably seen it used as garage sale signs. Well you can get it in full 4'x8' sheets. It wouldn't be as strong as 1/4", but it is probably as strong as Luan, it's also waterproof. 1" tubing and Coroplast might be a great option. Cost: google corrugated plastic and you'll find it for $34 a sheet with a 25 sheet minimum (call your local plastic dealer to see if you can avoid the minimum).
> 
> ...



Hmmm. will the plastic sheets provide enough cross-bracing for the studwall "legs" that support the platforms? Then again will 1/4" luan?


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## gafftaper (Aug 6, 2008)

So these walls are supporting the platform? I thought they were a superficial facade with the real structure underneath. Cross bracing doesn't have to be super strong. It's not actually weight baring, it is just fixing points in relationship to each other. 1/4" ply is strong for many cross bracing applications... not all. 5mm Luan well that's pushing it... I wouldn't use it as a primary source of cross bracing but it's a good reinforcement for some applications. 

I think we need some drawings here to better understand what you are doing. 

Also what's your budget?


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## Medryn (Aug 6, 2008)

gafftaper said:


> So these walls are supporting the platform? I thought they were a superficial facade with the real structure underneath. Cross bracing doesn't have to be super strong. It's not actually weight baring, it is just fixing points in relationship to each other. 1/4" ply is strong for many cross bracing applications... not all. 5mm Luan well that's pushing it... I wouldn't use it as a primary source of cross bracing but it's a good reinforcement for some applications.
> 
> I think we need some drawings here to better understand what you are doing.
> 
> Also what's your budget?



I'll see what I can do about getting some drawings up. Some of the walls are purely superficial, bearing no weight at all. The tower walls support platforms making the castle "practical". Effectively I'm thinking studwalls for the platform legs, faced to supply cross bracing.

Budget-wise we are limited by our fundraising ability, realistically I am looking at a max of $4000 but closer to $2500 would be better. 

Steel tube is currently leading in the steel vs wood debate, if only for weight reasons, and despite cost, but it also brings up the issues of requiring more equipment to work and thus more funds.


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## gafftaper (Aug 6, 2008)

You might be able to save some money on the construction by going with a mix of "Unistrut" (aka "Superstrut") and Wood instead of the welded tubing. Are you familiar with UniStrut? It's an adult erector set. Very strong, just bolt and go.


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## Medryn (Aug 13, 2008)

gafftaper said:


> You might be able to save some money on the construction by going with a mix of "Unistrut" (aka "Superstrut") and Wood instead of the welded tubing. Are you familiar with UniStrut? It's an adult erector set. Very strong, just bolt and go.



So effectively build the studwalls out of unistrut and platforms out of wood. Hmmm that might be a solution. IT would remove the need for welding, now I just need to find a price. Suggestions on how to attach facing to the unistrut?


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## Medryn (Aug 14, 2008)

gafftaper said:


> You might be able to save some money on the construction by going with a mix of "Unistrut" (aka "Superstrut") and Wood instead of the welded tubing. Are you familiar with UniStrut? It's an adult erector set. Very strong, just bolt and go.



Hmm actually for the prices I'm being quoted I think it might be worth the investment in equipment to work with steel tube.

Can a drill press handle 16 gauge square steel tube or do I need to look at getting the holes done by someone with access to a hydraulic punch?


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## LightStud (Aug 14, 2008)

How long is this piece of string?


Medryn said:


> Can a drill press handle 16 gauge square steel tube or do I need to look at getting the holes done by someone with access to a hydraulic punch?


 Depends on the torque of the motor and how sharp your bits are. A punch is usually not required.


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## ruinexplorer (Aug 15, 2008)

I'm guessing that you are a SCAdian, no? If so, the group up in Greeley (forgot the Barony's name) used to have some similar structure for their Brigand's Bizarre (except made for the heavies). If not, check sca.org for suggestions as well.


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## Medryn (Aug 15, 2008)

ruinexplorer said:


> I'm guessing that you are a SCAdian, no? If so, the group up in Greeley (forgot the Barony's name) used to have some similar structure for their Brigand's Bizarre (except made for the heavies). If not, check sca.org for suggestions as well.



Not actually a SCAdian, the group I am involved with is called Amtgard, kind of the SCA's bastard scion. We use boffer weapons instead of rattan. I've got a couple pictures of the current incarnation of the castle I'll post when I get home.


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