# Recording a Comms session?



## No X In Nixon (Aug 6, 2008)

Evening all,

We're currently in the middle of a big performance that comes along every two years (kind of half variety show, half concert); and the other techs and myself have been trying to think of a way to set up our comms system that we can record it (one of them had the brilliant idea to overlay the comms chatter on the DVD of the performance as an 'extra').

However, as the comms packs are powered through the cabling that also carries the audio; we're very reluctant to plug the 'thru' into an input on a mixing desk for fear of blowing something up (which seems probable...).

Has anyone attempted to plug their comms system into a mixer to record, and if yes, did it work??? And if that's not possible, does anyone know of a way to record the comms without going as far as buying a complete new system?



Thanks a million

No X.


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## Hughesie (Aug 6, 2008)

depending on your setup your base station might have a line out. I know concert intercomm ones do.

we thought of doing the same thing but never had anything to record it onto, plus some of our comments shouldn't be heard by the public.

I really *swear word* that cue

just an example


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## loki (Aug 6, 2008)

*Low Teck*
A idea that might work, is simply plug another coms substation in, in a nice quite place, then turn it up full volume, and stick a mic near the speekers in the headphones and run the mic into a recording deck.

*High Teck*
I dont know if it exists, but you could make or buy a lead that plugs into the substations "Headphones" jack, and the other end would be XLR or RCA or somthing, then plug it into a recording station, it would elimonate the power issue, and would be neat, just dont know if the lead exists


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## avare (Aug 6, 2008)

It can be easily done from the cables. However, without specifics of model, number of channels, two wire/single wire, it is impossible to give specific directions. The Handbook of Intercom Systems Engineering has the technical specs for several intercom wiring systems.

Andre


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## No X In Nixon (Aug 6, 2008)

Thanks for those quick replys guys,

I'll check tomorrow what the model is - however as far as I know, it doesn't have a line out. 


And as for the headphone to rca/xlr; that's not a bad idea... Could probably make one with not much effort... Again, I'll let you know how it goes!


Thanks again,

No X.


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## waynehoskins (Aug 6, 2008)

The basic choices that will dictate how it's done:
- Clear-Com Party Line
- CC Matrix
- RTS TW Two-channel 3-wire
- RTS TW One-channel 3-wire
- Telex

Chances are it's a Clear-Com PL system: those are pretty standard in theatre. RTS is standard in television. Telex never fit in really well anywhere, and now has merged with RTS.


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## DaveySimps (Aug 6, 2008)

+1 for the make your own cable concept. You should be able to find a wiring diagram for most modern systems that indicate the pinout of your spicific headset.

~Dave


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## Van (Aug 6, 2008)

Agreed, make your own adapter cable, Just be sure to inform all parties that they will be being recorded, then after the production... destroy the cord so it can't be used again without fore-knowledge of the crew. 

I had a Comms cnversation recorded behind my back once and it came back to bite me.


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## Hughesie (Aug 6, 2008)

we had an ex crew, cast member steal a spare comms once. that wasn't fun


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## Footer (Aug 7, 2008)

So is the Nixon name and recording conversations that usually are not recorded just a fluke? I had to ask...


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## 00AVD (Aug 7, 2008)

** Warning - commercial content **
What you want is something like I make.


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## museav (Aug 7, 2008)

A headset out is an amplified signal and would have to be padded down for most recording devices, some of the older Clear-Com party line products showed the appropriate circuit in the manuals.

It has been a while since I did this but I recall that it was actually pretty easy to get unbalanced line level audio from a Clear-Com line, it might be something as simple as a capacitor and resistor inline. Contact Clear-Com and ask them, I believe they provided us a schematic for this.


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## Chris15 (Aug 7, 2008)

00AVD said:


> ** Warning - commercial content **
> What you want is something like I make.



IF you are doing what I think you are in that box, then it should also function, were one to add in an external attenuator, as an audio input module...

Assuming you have the old school 3 pin party line setup, then a simple cable will be all you need, again we need to know the system. The setup we get most of the time down here, and I think it's the clearcom one, has unbalanced audio on pin 2, 30 - 36 volts DC on pin 3. So what you can do is literally just make a split with a male and female XLR and a TS jack with the audio connected between pins 1 & 2. You can make it more rugged and stick in an iso transformer and you then get a setup that is functionally equivalent to that which David will sell you...

You can also take the route of using a beltpack, but then you have an extra box you need to find space for somewhere... We tend to have 4 pin XLRs for headsets down here, occasionally some 5 pin. The 4 pin is wired 1 Mic Ground, 2 Mic, 3 Ears common, 4 ears (left in 5 pin) and in 5 pin, pin 5 is ears right. I'm sure wiring that to something like a 40dB padded DI would work, but at the moment it's getting slightly late and I'm too tired to do the gain calculations...

Bottom line, with some more details we should be able to find you an answer to how to make it happen. As for the wisdom or otherwise of doing so, I think I'll let you sort that one out. I certainly would not be one to want to do it, unless you have a dual channel setup with just the show call on one channel and chat on the other.


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## waynehoskins (Aug 7, 2008)

Chris15 said:


> The setup we get most of the time down here, and I think it's the clearcom one, has unbalanced audio on pin 2, 30 - 36 volts DC on pin 3.



I think you've got that one backwards. Clear-Com PL has ground pin 1, 30VDC power pin 2, and party line audio pin 3.

RTS has ground pin 1, channel 1 (wet) pin 2, channel 2 (wet or dry, often dry) pin 3.

Both are unbalanced line-level-ish, RTS about 6 dB hotter than CC.


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## No X In Nixon (Aug 7, 2008)

Hey Guys,

Thanks again for all the responses, they are greatly appreciated.

The comms system is a 'Jands' Ezicom E-200. It's a two channel, 3-Pin XLR system, but beyond that, I can't tell you much about it.

Does anyone know of this system or used it? It works fine for us, but if you add more than about 10 comms packs it starts to die (I'm assuming it starts to lose power...).


I can post pictures if you would like also;


Thanks again,

No X.


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## Chris15 (Aug 7, 2008)

A question to NoX, is it genuine Jands? Genuine Jands will more often than not have the case corners bent within months if not straight out of the box.

But never the less, viva the Aussie Comms.

Wayne is correct, my memory wasn't 100% at 1am... Jands Exicom is wired to the same standard. Pin 3 is line level audio. For one show, I've wired an adapter for an E400, the E200's 4 channel brother, to connect a radio mic receiver and IEM transmit to the comms bus. Clip a pair of beltapcks on and voila wireless comms... (Only works if you have that stuff spare...) Moral of teh story is taht if you take pin 3, you have utterly usable line level audio. I'd advise connect with the master turned off, whoever decided that the comms rings should start with Male connectors should be shot... Metal shelled XLRs can cause shorting which makes the fusible resistors etc internally go into protection mode... I speak from experience here...

As for loss of power with lots of beltpacks, that's not uncommon, and can be fixed by adding a booster power supply. If you have regular need for such a thing, I know I have a circuit lying around specifically for this and could probably email a scan of it to you... Basically what's happening is the power bus is dropping voltage because of the higher current through I2R losses etc and so you can't get as much juice out of it...


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## FMEng (Aug 8, 2008)

If you do record comms, I suggest that you make sure that everyone on the system knows it is being recorded. In most states it is illegal to record a private conversation without permission.

For broadcasters, it's a violation of federal law to record without notice.


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## derekleffew (Aug 8, 2008)

FMEng said:


> ... For broadcasters, it's a violation of federal law to record without notice.


 My TiVos and PVR are breaking the law?


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## Chris15 (Aug 8, 2008)

derekleffew said:


> My TiVos and PVR are breaking the law?



Possibly copyright laws...

Definitely get consent. I still have to wonder if in time you might find that it's not as great an idea as you had originally thought...


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## 00AVD (Aug 9, 2008)

Chris15 said:


> IF you are doing what I think you are in that box, then it should also function, were one to add in an external attenuator, as an audio input module...


Yes, it can be used as a line input when jumpered for line level mode. It works very nicely. I've not used that function myself yet but can see where it might be handy during rehearsals.

Our unit does contain a transformer. I'm a firm believer in avoiding potential problems with earth loops. It just makes it that much more bullet proof. If you have to listen to comms for hours you don't want extra hums and buzzes to drive you completely nuts!


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## museav (Aug 10, 2008)

FMEng said:


> If you do record comms, I suggest that you make sure that everyone on the system knows it is being recorded. In most states it is illegal to record a private conversation without permission.
> 
> For broadcasters, it's a violation of federal law to record without notice.


There are many different situations and I believe it is a lot more complicated than this on both issues and one aspect is what defines a private communication. I think it would be very difficult to argue that a conversation on a 'party line' system that is a direct part of professional or school work would be private. Then there is that you are allowed to record any conversation in which you are a direct participant and do not need anyone else's permission. I also know that in areas such as elevators you simply need to identify that they may be recording, you do not need permission. I do agree that letting people know that they may be recorded is a good idea, but I seriously doubt their permission is relevant. If you are not sure, the best idea is to check with an attorney who works in these areas.


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## Chris15 (Aug 12, 2008)

Permission to record is one thing... Permission to the broadcast this via inclusion on a DVD would be a different can of worms entirely...


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## tech2000 (Aug 20, 2008)

3 or 4 hours before our last fall production I was re-organizing cables in our light booth and accidentally connected our intercom to the lobby speakers. Director and LD were talking over the headset and the volume was so loud that you could hear their conversation all the way across the school...really cool, but a complete accident!
Now we know how loud the ceiling speakers in the lobby are!


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## Spiceboy (Jan 26, 2009)

To Get 2 Wire wet PL in to a Recorder or mixer you will need a 2 to 4 wire converter.

Something lke this should work for both Clearcom and RTS

http://www.clearcom.com/support/datasheet_pdfs/datasheets_party_line/Clear-Com_EF-701M_Datasheet.pdf

You can then wire from the 4 wire output to yor recorder or Mixer.


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## renegadeblack (Jan 29, 2009)

I suspect that they don't need to contact an attorney, they just let everyone on their crew know that they'll be recorded. I too think they'll find rather quickly that it's a bad idea as if their shows are anything like ours, some... ahem... wise comments are made about the quality of the performances with some... ahem... colorful language. Something that I find to be quite interesting with our ClearComs is that there's a program line on the base station that allows us to input audio to be broadcast across the system. 

Someone also mentioned that the coms are male on the wall... not in my theatre  Some are male and some are female. Why? Beats the heck out of me!


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## Hughesie (Jan 29, 2009)

I tried it (with the crew's permission) and apart from creating something you need to censor every 5 seconds its rather a pointless exercise.


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## kiwitechgirl (Jan 30, 2009)

renegadeblack said:


> Something that I find to be quite interesting with our ClearComs is that there's a program line on the base station that allows us to input audio to be broadcast across the system.



Our TechPro comms are the same - we use it for stage feed so that SM and operator have the program feed coming straight into their ears. Obviously it's fully volume-adjustable so that you can balance program feed and being able to hear people, but it's very useful. We've also had a piece of kit built which has the comms hooked into the theatre Tannoy; B-circuit on the comms works normally, but when you press the B signal button, it breaks into the Tannoy so you can make calls through the theatre. Cleverly, it's completely independent of the Tannoy volume so even if the dressing room Tannoy is turned right down, calls still go through. It also has an output on it so that you can record comms simply by plugging an XLR into the box and then into whatever recording device you please; we've only used it once, on a show which had such a complex call we recorded comms so that the backup operator could rehearse the operation of the show by himself, and both the SM and operator hated having to record comms.


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## Raktor (Jan 31, 2009)

Hughesie said:


> I tried it (with the crew's permission) and apart from creating something you need to censor every 5 seconds its rather a pointless exercise.



Why should you have to censor standbys, gos and acknowledgments of standbys? That's essentially all that should be happening.


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## Hughesie (Jan 31, 2009)

Raktor said:


> Why should you have to censor standbys, gos and acknowledgments of standbys? That's essentially all that should be happening.



If only


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## Chris Chapman (Feb 2, 2009)

When a complex show is being called, it can be a thing of beauty to listen to the stanbys, warnings, go's, position acks, and clears. I wish I had recordings of some of our comm chatter on big shows. Not the boring shows where you would have to bleep out every other word, just the impressive ones.


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## museav (Feb 2, 2009)

Chris Chapman said:


> When a complex show is being called, it can be a thing of beauty to listen to the stanbys, warnings, go's, position acks, and clears. I wish I had recordings of some of our comm chatter on big shows. Not the boring shows where you would have to bleep out every other word, just the impressive ones.


I see that being the best use of any recording, to review in an attempt to improve communications or as an example of good communications.


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## renegadeblack (Feb 2, 2009)

Hughesie said:


> If only



Right? Our director tends to be on comms during the show and she sits front row which you can see from the coves. Whoever is in the cove can see her and lets us know when she is and isn't on comms 

And for those of you who said that all that should be on the comms is cues, yeah, it is. But during intermission, we deem that we should be allowed to chatter. Also, during a rather boring show, when there aren't any cues, we just talk... when the comms are all working, if not, we hope that the spot operators can figure out the cues themselves or when their cue comes up that it magically starts working again (which seems to happen strangely often).


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## NickJones (Apr 8, 2009)

Just a few things,
You shouldn't run it into the mixer. As it will be a seperate Audio Track for the DVD,

Secondly; and probably more importantly, who do you expect to watch this? In high school shows people don't care what happens behind the scenes, if they did, then they would be doing the show. Coms chatter can be interesting, but only for tech people. My first show I ever did I did with Raktor & Loki, it was High School Musical, I got into the songs a bit and singing and dancing may/may not have happened in the booth. Some of it through coms. Nothing like a sing along, (getting off topic a bit here,) I got a message from someone who was standing in the wings saying people on stage could see us. If there is interesting coms chatter, then you won't be allowed to put it on the DVD. I was at a mates place today, we found his old video camera, and rememberd the last time it was used was years ago on the same show. We used it to tape some behind the scenes stuff. And during one part, a cake got thrown at him. On another part features anther mate trying to drink 2l of Coke at once. That can be a lot more interesting than hearing people talk about the curtain going up and down. We have an upcoming production, and again, we will make a video of rehearsals, and all the cool stuff that happens in them, then we will stick all that on the DVD. Also if you are in a HS situation, where it is all done volinatarily then people watch it and think, well that looks like fun, making minions easier to find.
Nick


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## willbb123 (Apr 8, 2009)

I would listen to it if it was a special feature. Probably not anyone else. 
I too have done high school musical. There may of been alot of dancing going on in the booth. 
The last concert I did it's probably better that no one will hear what was said again. So many things happened wrong (artists fault, showed up an hour late past go, very drunk). I normally don't swear, but after this show I apologised to the other people on headset.


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## NickJones (Apr 10, 2009)

willbb123 said:


> I would listen to it if it was a special feature. Probably not anyone else.
> I too have done high school musical. There may of been alot of dancing going on in the booth.
> The last concert I did it's probably better that no one will hear what was said again. So many things happened wrong (artists fault, showed up an hour late past go, very drunk). I normally don't swear, but after this show I apologised to the other people on headset.


Yeah, my point exactly, you and I would, but if this was a HS show, we would both be involved in it anyway. General public wouldn't. No dancing? I hated the movie, but I have to say, it kinda grew on me. Now I want to kill everyone involved in any of the HSM moves, but that's beside the point. I don't really think coms should be used to have a general conversation, but talking about the show ect, I have no problem with, but views are often discused on coms. And not all are nice, I don't necissarily agree that coms chatter should be Standing By, Acknowledgment of Standing By, and Go's. Shows can get boring. I did one at Christmas time, I didn't bother writing cues as I just submasterd most of it, and I pushed up the subbie, and went and had a chat with my spot operator. So if you did go with the recording idea, it would either be boring as anything, or filled with jucy gosip that would offend people. 
Nick


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## willbb123 (Apr 10, 2009)

NickJones said:


> Yeah, my point exactly, you and I would, but if this was a HS show, we would both be involved in it anyway. General public wouldn't. No dancing? I hated the movie, but I have to say, it kinda grew on me. Now I want to kill everyone involved in any of the HSM moves, but that's beside the point. I don't really think coms should be used to have a general conversation, but talking about the show ect, I have no problem with, but views are often discused on coms. And not all are nice, I don't necissarily agree that coms chatter should be Standing By, Acknowledgment of Standing By, and Go's. Shows can get boring. I did one at Christmas time, I didn't bother writing cues as I just submasterd most of it, and I pushed up the subbie, and went and had a chat with my spot operator. So if you did go with the recording idea, it would either be boring as anything, or filled with jucy gosip that would offend people.
> Nick



Thinking about it more, I'd be more interested in just hearing the LD and other crew talking about why they did what they did.


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## Andy_Leviss (Apr 14, 2009)

For those who want to make a safe adapter to do this:

http://bestaudio.com/_private/downloads/Audio_only_adapter.pdf

or, for a simpler version, if you have an IL-19 or two around to use:
http://bestaudio.com/_private/downloads/Simple_Audio_only.pdf

[Correction to my earlier post. I had mentioned that, in a pinch, you can use a pin 2 lift to record ClearCom. This is technically true, but ONLY if nobody presses the call button. The call button dumps 24V onto the audio line, hence the need for the caps. I shouldn't post tech stuff at 4am!]

--Andy


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## NickJones (Apr 14, 2009)

Cheers Andy, 
Will definitely use this if need to record a Coms Sessison. 

willbb123 said:


> Thinking about it more, I'd be more interested in just hearing the LD and other crew talking about why they did what they did.


I have seen one or two shows recently, I always judge how good a show is depending on how sore my neck is after the show. If I spent the show checking out and IDing every piece of tech gear in the venue, I know it has been a lame show. But should I not even notice this, then it's been a good show. 
I'm LDing a show that goes on in two weeks, and its awful. We should get rid of the costumes section on here and replace it with "Super Lame Shows We Have Done" anyway, back on track, the show is really really bad. I seriously think more pressure is put on the tech's should it be a lame play. I should make an iPhone App for broadcasting the comms chatter. I just got the SDK from Apple. Could be a fun project.
Nick


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## Hughesie (Apr 14, 2009)

Nick, as valid as your point maybe i'd be very careful with how much you publiclly bag a show. Controlbooth is a very high ranking (google seo wise) site and you never know who might be watching.

Just my 2 cents and something i learnt personally.


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## NickJones (Apr 14, 2009)

Hughesie said:


> Nick, as valid as your point maybe i'd be very careful with how much you publiclly bag a show. Controlbooth is a very high ranking (google seo wise) site and you never know who might be watching.
> 
> Just my 2 cents and something i learnt personally.


Yeah, I'm surprised how much this site comes up when I Google stuff. The production we are doing doesn't even come up on Google. And I chose not to mention the name of the show. I would post a song on here just to show how epicly lame it is. But that would break copyright.
The director is the only person involved in the show, that thinks its any good. I'm not sure if I want my name on the program. Don't want to put my name to the program.
Nick


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## Anonymous067 (Apr 14, 2009)

Perhaps this got mentioned earlier in a post, but I have a senario-based question regarding recording a comm's session.

Our system is:
Clearcom

1 PL Pro MS323 Base Station

2 Rackmount WBS 670 (80% sure on the model there)
6-8 Wireless Bodypacks for the wireless (forget the model...WTR or something) 670. We can have a total of four on A and four on B channels.

We also have wired stations...I cannot remember their model number. (RS 502 I think based on Clearcom's website).

We run on a 6 pin line, with 4 pin outputs to headsets.

Heres our "problem".
Our TD, Supervising Sound Engineer, and MD are on headset, and we don't want them recorded. We all need to be able to talk to each other, but we just don't want them on the recording. How can we do this with a Party-Line system...either used as a party line or as a two line?

My plan was once I figured this out was to make a custom cable between "headphone outs" to a recording device...possibly hidden in the rack....

Any ideas??

thanx!


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