# Another Miracle....we can get a new audio console :-) Now which one?



## ChubRock (Jan 19, 2011)

I just got the call that our district office is willing to replace our old Yamaha 36-channel analog console in our theater. Budget somewhere from $10k to $14k. I have been looking into the Yamaha LS9-32, but would like a few more channels. 

I need to have XLR inputs from legacy mics, compressors, etc. I would like at least 36-channels, but would be happier with 48. Cool digital memory setting with auto moving faders, channel EQ settings, etc.

Any suggestions?


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## Footer (Jan 19, 2011)

Assuming you are doing regular theatre things. 

Your not going to get to 48 with a digital console in your price range, at least cleanly. You could go with an 02R and get a rack of preamps and that would do it. You would only have 24 handles but it would be doable. You could also do it with the DM1000 and DM2000. Really, with the requirements you have, your in the M7 range but your price range is not even close. 

That all said... with an LS9 or any other digital console you don't need outboard compressors/limiters/graphs. Unless you are mixing a large pit, I have yet to see a show I can't put into a 32 channel console. On that not as well, you could throw a MY16-AT card in, get the same rack of outboard preamps, and take the LS9-32 up to 48 channels. Once again though, you would have 16 channels in a different layer. This would probably be the best option for you.


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## ChubRock (Jan 19, 2011)

Nice additions. I thought 32 was my range since price is a consideration. We have comp/limit on each of 18 AT 3000 series Lavs. I considered the LS9 and whatever modules I would need to add 8-16 more XLR inputs.

Any chance Allen and Heath has anything nice?


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## techno89 (Jan 19, 2011)

I like Mackie  
TT System 32 - The Complete Digital Mixing System

My .02c


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## NUSound (Jan 19, 2011)

techno89 said:


> I like Mackie



I hate Mackie. I die a little everytime I see one of their boards.

Get an LS9. The budget is right, the board is great. If you absolutely need 36+ channels, there are some fairly reasonable ways to expand it.

How much outboard do you have? Does you current budget account for what you might be able to get after selling it off?

Edit:

The iLive from A&H is out of your budget, but a fantastic system. Disregarding rider-friendliness, it's probably my favorite all-around board.


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## TheGuruat12 (Jan 19, 2011)

NUSound said:


> I hate Mackie. I die a little everytime I see one of their boards.



Why?

I first learned on a Mackie, and it is STILL my favorite board. At least, my favorite analog board.

Just curious as to what you have against them?


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## Footer (Jan 19, 2011)

TheGuruat12 said:


> Why?
> 
> I first learned on a Mackie, and it is STILL my favorite board. At least, my favorite analog board.
> 
> Just curious as to what you have against them?



Take it up in a PM guys. Lets stay on topic and not turn this thread into a "I hate ________" flame war.


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## Spectre7 (Jan 19, 2011)

Go with a LS9-32. You can't beat what it offers for the price. Purchase the I/O cards and you'll still be under your budget and add more channels. Layering is nothing difficult and layers are switched with the push of a single button. With the digital you wont need the comp/gates nor any of the outboard analog gear like effects processors or massive EQ racks. If you could convince your district or directors, you could possibly sell the old analog equipment to have more funding for the console. Of course selling off pieces of your house setup would be bad if you intend on having shows inbetween selling the old stuff and installing the new. My theatre runs a LS9-32 and I have yet to find a large concert or concert series we can't run with ease. You never have to leave the console/computer... And if you can't stand the console/computer you can always run it wireless with an iPhone or iPad from a different location.


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## avkid (Jan 19, 2011)

techno89 said:


> I like Mackie
> TT System 32 - The Complete Digital Mixing System
> 
> My .02c


 Do not buy this, you will live to regret it.


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## avkid (Jan 19, 2011)

If you want analog you should talk to my friends over at APB Dynasonics.

Analog Audio Consoles - APB-Dynasonics.com


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## metti (Jan 19, 2011)

I take it used is out of the question? It wouldn't be too tough to get a used M7CL-48 within that budget, though closer to the high end. Otherwise, I would say that you really can't go wrong with an LS9-32 with a MY16AT and a couple of extra 8ch pres. On the higher end of your budget you could probably even get a LS9-32, MY16-ES64, and an SB168-ES which would be pretty nice setup since you would still have recallable HAs and pretty rock solid reliability compared to ADAT connections.


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## museav (Jan 19, 2011)

techno89 said:


> I like Mackie
> TT System 32 - The Complete Digital Mixing System
> 
> My .02c


While Mackie still shows the TT24 and TT System 32 as current products on their web site, no one seems to be selling anything but refurbished products and the future of the TT24 has been unsure for quite some time now. Given all the uncertainty for its future and the availability issues, it's probably not a practical choice regardless of what one thinks about it.

If you stayed analog then you could probably get an APB Dynasonics ProDesk 4 or 8 with 32, 40 or 48 inputs (plus 4 stereo inputs) within or close to your budget. There's also several good A&H analog console choices in the $10-$14k price range. If you go digital then the options that would offer more than 32 inputs and be usable for theatre are limited.

Are there any specific capabilities or functionality that you need from the console such as number of aux sends and/or groups, whether you need it to support an LCR system or anything else?


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## bishopthomas (Jan 19, 2011)

Used M7CL's go for about $15,000. I would sell your analog equipment to bump your budget up a bit and go for the M7.


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## avkid (Jan 20, 2011)

TT24 is almost completely unsupported due to personnel changes in engineering at LOUD Technologies.


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## ChubRock (Jan 20, 2011)

Thanks for the responses. FOr the most part, our high school theater does basic plays, a musical and big winter multi-arts. 18-24 wireless for plays with some CDs, ipods, MacBook inputs. Matrix, aux, sub and channels out for FX, feeds to various needs, recording, etc. 

The big multi-arts uses all the wireless and about 30 mics on stage. I mix the bands mic separately on a couple of 16-ch mixers and feed them into our current 3-channel board. 

the outs are used to feed monitors, both backstage and booth, feed live video, digital recordings etc. Nice to have hundreds of recall scenes, but still maintain some fader control for nuance. 

Seems that if we get the replacement I should go digital so kids get the experience beyond our traditional Yamaha board. 

It would be nice to be able to easily move the console out of the booth and put it in the house several feet. Maybe an I/O that is racked and some basic cable that allows us to move it in the house for a better feel for the room, but not always in that application. 

I looked online at the Allen and Heath iLive T-80. Thoughts!


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## ChubRock (Jan 20, 2011)

bishopthomas said:


> Used M7CL's go for about $15,000. I would sell your analog equipment to bump your budget up a bit and go for the M7.


 
Food for thought. Where would a guy sell a used heavy, big console? Classified on Control Booth.


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## chausman (Jan 20, 2011)

ChubRock said:


> Food for thought. Where would a guy sell a used heavy, big console? Classified on Control Booth.


 
ControlBooth Classifieds, eBay, eBay local, Craigslist. All that I can think of off the top of my head. Maybe another school in your area might want to upgrade to what you have now. Or a local shop trying to increase inventory.


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## museav (Jan 21, 2011)

ChubRock said:


> I looked online at the Allen and Heath iLive T-80. Thoughts!


The iLive T-80 is a work surface only, you need at least one of the MixRack boxes, which includes the main I/O and all of the processing, to have a usable iLive-T system. Just to give some idea, the list price for a basic iLive-T system is around $17k to $19k for 32 inputs/16 outputs and $20k to $22k for 48 inputs/24 outputs with the range noted reflecting the work surface used (I much prefer the T-112 work surface, but it is larger and more expensive than the T-80). You could go up to 64 inputs, split I/O across multiple stage boxes, add interface cards for recording, digital splits or redundant communication, etc. at additional cost. Those are full retail prices so you probably can get a system for a bit less but the markups on products like these are not as large as they are on many more mass market products so there may not be as much discount as you normally expect. For the number of inputs you want, unless you can significantly increase your budget the Yamaha LS9 and maybe the Roland M-400 V-Mixer system are probably your best bets.

Is used equipment even an option? I know many school districts that discourage or prohibit buying used, especially if it is something of sufficient value that they would want to consider it a capital expenditure. The same may also apply to trying to sell used equipment, since it is basically owned by the public there may be restrictions on selling it or a specific process that has to be followed. If you are not going to be using it then they may indeed want to do something like use it in another district venue.


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## Benjod82 (Jan 28, 2011)

ChubRock said:


> I just got the call that our district office is willing to replace our old Yamaha 36-channel analog console in our theater. Budget somewhere from $10k to $14k. I have been looking into the Yamaha LS9-32, but would like a few more channels.
> 
> I need to have XLR inputs from legacy mics, compressors, etc. I would like at least 36-channels, but would be happier with 48. Cool digital memory setting with auto moving faders, channel EQ settings, etc.
> 
> Any suggestions?


 
The high school I work at has been pretty happy with the LS9-32 we purchased last spring. We are moving from a Crest X-8 (40 mic inputs plus 4 stereo pairs). 

You should be able to get to 48 channels plus 16 digital ins/outs towards the top of your price range (SB168-ES, AVY16-ES100, MY16-AT).


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## avkid (Jan 28, 2011)

Benjod82 said:


> The high school I work at has been pretty happy with the LS9-32 we purchased last spring. We are moving from a Crest X-8 (40 mic inputs plus 4 stereo pairs).


 You wouldn't happen to be selling the X-8 would you?


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## NickVon (Jan 29, 2011)

I've been very happy with the LS9-32 that the college Arts Center has purchased. Something to think about regarding number of channels. My console actually has 40 "channels" (with and added card with 8x TRS inputs.) so i have 32 channels of mic/preamp stuff, and 8 channels that i use for playback( stereo laptop, stereo Mp3/personal media device, Tascam CD01u, and a 5 Disc CD changer.)

This setup has worked out really well so far. The one time i found my self limited was while mixing 24 channels of Wireless and a full band. Being the the drummer himself had 8 channels of audio just with micing his kit, and a electronic drum pad. We ended up borrowing an Yamaha O1v to mix the band. Which is how i would recommend solving this problem provided you don't need more then 32 channels of Mic's on a single surface, if you are able to split up voice and band. We didn't get into the fancier aspect of master/slaving the two boards together which i believe can be done.

I'd give my LS932 a 5 stars, and i know i'm still not quite using it to it's potential.


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## fx120 (Jan 30, 2011)

-- EDIT -- I quoted from the wrong line in my pricebook. MAP on the iDR32 is $6,999. T80/iDR total system price is about $17k


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## CanYouHearMeNow (Feb 9, 2011)

I have worked with an LS9-16 and it is an AMAZING digital board. The built-in compressor and gate are a great extra that I have enjoyed using in an arena full of people listening to CDs that have been mixed at all different levels, I was able to set the compressor right when I started having issues. The software on the computer also makes it simple to control, even remotely over VNC. The software, even if it isn't used to make adjustments, makes it easier to monitor levels, fix eqs and it just looks cool! If someone learns the software well enough it can be used very easily to make adjustments if, for instance, a student doesn't know something (like how to fix feedback), you can come along and fix the eq while they still work the board for levels or something instead of having to kick them out as you do that. Very few complaints about the mixer. And the built in USB port allows you to record directly to a flash drive from the board. Haven't used that option yet but it looks very interesting to me.

The one downside is that everything on the board is XLR so you have to have a number of adapters ready if you want to use anything through line.


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## Mwne2nks (Feb 21, 2011)

Just installed a LS9-32 . Easy to use easy to set up. No Brainer in your price range.


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## 2mojo2 (Feb 21, 2011)

ChubRock said:


> Thanks for the responses. FOr the most part, our high school theater does basic plays, a musical and big winter multi-arts. 18-24 wireless for plays with some CDs, ipods, MacBook inputs. Matrix, aux, sub and channels out for FX, feeds to various needs, recording, etc.
> 
> The big multi-arts uses all the wireless and about 30 mics on stage. I mix the bands mic separately on a couple of 16-ch mixers and feed them into our current 3-channel board.
> 
> ...


 
*ClubRock: What in Ohm's name are you doing with 54 microphones on stage for a live performance? How many do you have open at a time? Eight mikes on a drum kit for live sound?*


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## avkid (Feb 21, 2011)

2mojo2 said:


> *ClubRock: What in Ohm's name are you doing with 54 microphones on stage for a live performance? How many do you have open at a time? Eight mikes on a drum kit for live sound?*


 A festival mainstage with stacked backline could easily hit that number.
But not all live at the same time.


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## bishopthomas (Feb 22, 2011)

2mojo2 said:


> *ClubRock: What in Ohm's name are you doing with 54 microphones on stage for a live performance? How many do you have open at a time? Eight mikes on a drum kit for live sound?*


 
8 mics on a drum kit is pretty standard.

1. Kick In
2. Kick Out
3. Snare Top
4. Snare Bottom
5. Hat
6. Rack 1
7. Rack 2
8. Floor 1
9. Floor 2
10. Ride
11. Overhead SR
12. Overhead SL

And that's a pretty typical kit. Add an extra snare, cowbell, chimes, maybe another tom and you're at 16 channels of drums. Just for the hell of it, here's the rest of the input list (for one band only):

17. Drum Pad L
18. Drum Pad R
19. Samples L (sometimes these can be up to 16 channels from a multitrack machine)
20. Samples R
21. Bass DI
22. Bass Mic
23. Guitar 1 Condensor
24. Guitar 1 Dynamic
25. Guitar 2 Condensor
26. Guitar 2 Dynamic
27. Guitar 3 Condensor
28. Guitar 3 Dynamic
29. Acoustic
30. Piano L
31. Piano R
32. Key 1 L
33. Key 1 R
34. Key 2 L
35. Key 2 R
36. Vox 1
37. Vox 2
38. Vox 3
39. Vox 4
40. Vox 5
41. Spare Vox
42. Crowd Mic L (for IEM's)
43. Crowd Mic C
44. Crowd Mic R

Now add 4-6 channels if a percussion kit shows up. And this isn't anything out of the ordinary at all, for one band. During the day you might have a hand drum group and need to add 8 channels. Or a comedian needs a wireless lav. Channels add up quickly.


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## museav (Feb 22, 2011)

bishopthomas said:


> 8 mics on a drum kit is pretty standard.
> 
> 1. Kick In
> 2. Kick Out
> ...


Or think about adding a horn section. For a 'multi arts' you might have an orchestra, multiple vocal/choral groups, pit band, performer mics, emcee, multi-channel playback and so on. Many people also like to being effects back into channels or to double up on some mic channels so that you can have clean and processed sends. It can all start to add up real quickly.


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## TimmyP1955 (Feb 22, 2011)

You can get a clean used M7CL-48 with case for $15k, then sell the case for $750. Here's one:

FS: Yamaha M7CL-48 w/meterbridge and R&R Roadcase w/nosecone


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## Tex (Feb 27, 2011)

TimmyP1955 said:


> You can get a clean used M7CL-48 with case for $15k, then sell the case for $750. Here's one:
> 
> FS: Yamaha M7CL-48 w/meterbridge and R&R Roadcase w/nosecone


If you have been successful getting a school district to buy used equipment, you're a better man than I! The three districts for which I have worked were very clear about not buying anything used. It's difficult to get them to SELL used equipment...


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## museav (Feb 28, 2011)

Tex said:


> If you have been successful getting a school district to buy used equipment, you're a better man than I! The three districts for which I have worked were very clear about not buying anything used. It's difficult to get them to SELL used equipment...


This matches my experience with school districts and corporations. Used equipment may be allowable for minimal value purchases but usually not permitted for anything that may be considered a Capital Expenditure or where a warranty is relevant. And with a Public school district, anything of that value may have to go out to bid or be advertised as intended Sole Source so that others can respond.


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