# Hall Associates or zfx for Peter Pan?



## Linzybrooke (Sep 24, 2013)

We have quotes from each company for our upcoming production of Peter Pan, but are trying to figure out who our best option is. I know that both companies are fairly well-known, which makes it difficult for us to determine who to go with. If any of you have an opinion or experience working with either Hall or zfx, particularly for Peter Pan, I would love to hear how you felt about your production. 

Thank you for your time.

Lin Leffel


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## MPowers (Sep 24, 2013)

I have personal friends of many years that work in both companies and I know you would not go wrong with either one. However I would suggest a 3rd option. Have you tried to get a quote from D2 Flying Effects? http://d2flying.com/ 
In fact the owner/president of D2 is the original founder of Hall Associates, Delbert Hall. Of course I have known Delbert for many years also and I feel you would get the best, hands on, personalized approach from D2.


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## josh88 (Sep 24, 2013)

I know a bunch of the zfx crew, they are good people. I'd always go to them first just because of the personal connection. My wife through the YMCA has gone with hall and had a great experience with them as well. Honestly though out of the three mentioned, find the cheapest that gives you what you want and go with whoever it is. 


Via tapatalk


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## MNicolai (Sep 24, 2013)

Peter Pan is a simple show for any of the big flying effects companies to do. I believe most of them even have packages ready for that show and for other regular flying effects shows like Phantom. Any of the big companies can do this kind of show in their sleep. You can solicit multiple quotes, but I suspect geographical location will be the determining factor in who can get you the best price. Whichever company has to truck their gear and people farther will likely have the higher rate.

For something as straightforward as Peter Pan, I'd say whichever of the big companies has the better price will be fine, while staying away from "a guy who knows a guy" type effects providers.


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## Footer (Sep 24, 2013)

Give each a call and talk through what you want. Depending on if you want something special or something more traditional each will give you a different answer. All of them will be good to work with, but call each to figure out who sounds like they will be a better match for you and your show.


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## cmckeeman (Sep 24, 2013)

i have been on some calls where zfx was also there and heard of some questionable things going on (i was done and gone when it was happening) so you might want to take that into consideration.


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## What Rigger? (Sep 25, 2013)

cmckeeman said:


> i have been on some calls where zfx was also there and heard of some questionable things going on (i was done and gone when it was happening) so you might want to take that into consideration.


Well, if you're going to make these kinds of statements, I'd think you should at least complete the picture and tell us what you heard about after you were done and gone. This is serious stuff, and if you have concerns they should be voiced, in order to protect others.

But having worked for ZFX, I seriously doubt the validity of your statements until something comes along to prove otherwise.


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## MNicolai (Sep 25, 2013)

I'll admit I've heard grievances before as well about multiple flying companies, but generally they can be summed up as coordination issues. Someone's memo didn't make it front of the right people, stuff got loaded in in the wrong order, and then lighting and flying would fight each other for stage time. In particularly bad scenarios, the LD is surprised at how many line sets they lose to the flying rig they didn't know would take up so much space.

I will say I know of a couple close calls, both that resulted in injury to the flying op and were related to the flying op not having their gloves on and choosing to either get massive rope burn or let go of the rope and drop the performer. 

One was a staff member of the flying company. Another was a dance company's stagehand who was caught with his pants down (aka his gloves off) when an inadequately run rehearsal resulted in him beginning the effect before he had his gloves on.

Both incidents were on separate events, though there was a commonality between them that the flying FX staff member from the first incident was the trainer/supervisor for the flying op in the second incident. Also, in both incidents, the ops were caught off-guard and rushed into flying effects they should have resisted the urge to rush into and taken the time to put their gloves on.

Lessons learned here are:

1) No matter what, flying effects do not begin until flying op and talent are prepared. If this means an awkward pause in the performance, so be it. Worst position you can be in is to hoist someone 30' (stage) or 75' (arena) up only to not be able to safely return them to the ground without destroying your hands.

2) The only person who talks to the flying op is the stage manager. (In the second incident, a dancer in the wings was over-excited and prematurely told the op the effect was about to start -- he had a full 90sec left he could've used for putting those gloves on but he thought he only had 10sec).

3) You can't teach just anyone to be a flying op. This person or people should be chosen very carefully. In addition to the technical know-how they'll learn from the FX supervisor, they need to have excellent judgement skills under pressure and a spine for telling people "No" with.

Worth noting in the second incident, the stagehand has been blacklisted and the dancer was given grief for her inappropriate initiative. I wouldn't blame him for it, but that the flying supervisor was watching Netflix on his laptop in the back row of the theater when this happened was unfortunate. In his defense, this was the last night he was on-site and the cast and op were supposed to be self-sufficient at this rehearsal. Oops.

I shouldn't mention this because this third incident is based on hearsay, but I also know of a case with group where, due to lack of supervision by the venue/director/flying company, a very lightweight student was the flying op who didn't weigh enough for that position. Supposedly the FX supervisor told him to fill a backpack with heavy stuff to compensate.

Kid ended up wearing the backpack, then tying additional heavy items to himself to make up the difference. Just so happened this effect begins with the op jumping off of a ladder, rope tightly in hand, to begin the lift. So this scrawny kid is tripping over himself and the extra gak attached to him while jumping off a ladder......

It's clearly laid out in the contract that the person doing the lifting should weigh more than the person being lifted. I do not know why neither the director nor FX supervisor nor venue (who provided the student) red-flagged the effect that first day on-site.

I wasn't there, but that information found it's way to me, part from the sound op, part from the kid who was the flying op. Can't say I know exactly where to attribute my disappointment, but luckily no one was harmed during that production.

I've deliberately left names of people, groups, and companies out of this. Please do not speculate, and if you know or determine those details, please refrain from stating them here.


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## DaveySimps (Sep 25, 2013)

I have worked with both companies on more than one occasion, and would not hesitate to recommend either one. Both were professional and very safety conscious. When we did Pan the last time, ZFX offered a few more props and such as part of the package that Hall did not, so that was our deciding factor. Both had the same travel requirements and were able to meet our artistic needs for the production well. 

From a logistics and planning standpoint, I always feel that Hall is better at keeping everyone in the loop and general communication and timeliness. As someone who manages a very busy facility, I appreciate this very much. I do not have to wait days to hear back about a simple question. From my expirences, ZFX could use some work in that department. An example would be that we had 2 productions back to back that we were using ZFX. We had 2 seperate office reps and flight directors. Even when their flight director got into the field, they were unaware of this. Despite me calling and emailing several times and mentioning this. We missed out on some opporunities of saving on shipping and eliminiating some redundancies. But, again, both are great companies.

~Dave


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## cmckeeman (Sep 25, 2013)

What Rigger? said:


> Well, if you're going to make these kinds of statements, I'd think you should at least complete the picture and tell us what you heard about after you were done and gone. This is serious stuff, and if you have concerns they should be voiced, in order to protect others.
> 
> But having worked for ZFX, I seriously doubt the validity of your statements until something comes along to prove otherwise.



What had happened was once the flying rig was up and ready the ZFX tech showed a volunteer for the show (most of the people working the show were volunteers from a church) how to operate the rig then he left for lunch and let the guy fly people without his supervision. luckily nothing bad happened but giving a volunteer a crash course then leaving is not something that a good flying company should do, and like i said i don't think this is indicative of the whole company but just something to think about.


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## DuckJordan (Sep 25, 2013)

Is flying by foy still around?


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## josh88 (Sep 25, 2013)

Yes the are, in fact now that you said that I misremembered and it was foy that my wife worked with for hers, not hall


Via tapatalk


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## firewater88 (Sep 26, 2013)

I have worked with both ZFX and Fly by Foy in the past. Have not had a chance to work with Hall. We used Foy for our Peter Pan a few years back and had nothing but good things to say about them. I can also say the same for ZFX for other shows. Both companies offered us great training and a great overall experience and I would have no problem quoting (or hiring) either company again for a future show. 
Is this your first time flying?
As others have stated, go with the company that will offer what you are wanting and offers the best pricing. Remember, hotel and local transport fees may also be required by you and may not be in the quote. Something to think about.


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## avkid (Oct 2, 2013)

We have had great experiences with Flying By Foy for our yearly production of Scrooge.


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## gafftaper (Oct 11, 2013)

I used Hall Associates for a middle school production of Peter Pan. It was a great experience and they were fantastic to work with. The theater we performed in was a nightmare for rigging. I ended up having to install a huge temporary truss structure on stage to do the flying from. As a result, I was a low budget gig and a huge hassle. Foy turned me down on the first call. ZFX took a couple of calls and emails but eventually turned down the job. But Hall never backed down and worked with me to find a safe way to fly in difficult circumstances. I was a very small production and they didn't make much money off me, but for the couple of months ahead of the show they were my best friends and they treated me like a king. When the flight director arrived, he worked with us to add flights to scenes we hadn't even considered. He knew the show backward and forward and he worked with our existing blocking and inserted wonderful little flight bits to make our work shine. Hall Associates really won my loyalty with that experience and I give them a big thumbs up as a result. 

That said there is *absolutely nothing* wrong with ZFX, Foy, or D2. Call all four. Get quotes, go with the one that fits your budget and style best. There is *no* 5th option that you should consider.


cmckeeman said:


> What had happened was once the flying rig was up and ready the ZFX tech showed a volunteer for the show (most of the people working the show were volunteers from a church) how to operate the rig then he left for lunch and let the guy fly people without his supervision. luckily nothing bad happened but giving a volunteer a crash course then leaving is not something that a good flying company should do, and like i said i don't think this is indicative of the whole company but just something to think about.



First off, there are hundreds of very high budget productions flown every year by ZFX... for example the official production of Wicked. I doubt they would agree with your impressions of ZFX.

Second, Remember, the whole idea for most productions is that they set it up, train your crew then leave and let you run the show and have you ship the gear back to them when the show is over. While what you vaguely described sounds like there wasn't much training, the normal process is a crew member is trained to do the flying and then does it alone unsupervised. The question that needs to be answered is did the rigger say: "I'm going to lunch you do whatever you want while I'm gone." or did the rigger leave expecting that crew would not use the gear while he was gone? There's a big difference.


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## What Rigger? (Oct 18, 2013)

cmckeeman said:


> What had happened was once the flying rig was up and ready the ZFX tech showed a volunteer for the show (most of the people working the show were volunteers from a church) how to operate the rig then he left for lunch and let the guy fly people without his supervision. luckily nothing bad happened but giving a volunteer a crash course then leaving is not something that a good flying company should do, and like i said i don't think this is indicative of the whole company but just something to think about.


 

Is this an incident you were present for? This is seriously not the kind of thing that would be allowed any chance to happen in my time with them.

I simply think that there's enough heresay on the Innerwebs, and unless we can give credible sources, going with "well, I heard (x) but I wasn't there" isn't the best route to go. Example: rumors have reached me about what happened on KA. Nobody can or will corroborate. Nothing that has come to me has been from OSHA or anyone on the production.

Jeez, I'm monologuing again.


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## cmckeeman (Oct 20, 2013)

What Rigger? said:


> Is this an incident you were present for? This is seriously not the kind of thing that would be allowed any chance to happen in my time with them.
> 
> I simply think that there's enough heresay on the Innerwebs, and unless we can give credible sources, going with "well, I heard (x) but I wasn't there" isn't the best route to go. Example: rumors have reached me about what happened on KA. Nobody can or will corroborate. Nothing that has come to me has been from OSHA or anyone on the production.
> 
> Jeez, I'm monologuing again.



i wasn't present for him training or the flying i was cut from the call, but unless if every rigger and stagehand from my company is lying then that is what happened.


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## What Rigger? (Oct 21, 2013)

cmckeeman said:


> i wasn't present for him training or the flying i was cut from the call, but unless if every rigger and stagehand from my company is lying then that is what happened.


 
Hmmm...disturbing at best. I know there's folks from ZFX here on the 'booth. I wonder if they have any thoughts on this.


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## cmckeeman (Oct 23, 2013)

What Rigger? said:


> Hmmm...disturbing at best. I know there's folks from ZFX here on the 'booth. I wonder if they have any thoughts on this.



If anyone from ZFX want to PM me i will give them more details and then they can look at the show an set the record strait.


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## derekleffew (Dec 17, 2013)

http://www.desmoinesregister.com/ar...0032/0/ent05/?odyssey=nav|head&nclick_check=1


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## epimetheus (Dec 17, 2013)

We just had ZFX in to fly an angel in my church's annual Christmas production. I can't do anything but sing their praises, at least from the volunteer aspect. I wasn't involved in the front end quoting process, but once the flying director arrived, the install, training, and operation went very smoothly, well minus equipment shipping issues do to the recent ice storm.


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## VCTMike (Dec 17, 2013)

epimetheus said:


> We just had ZFX in to fly an angel in my church's annual Christmas production. I can't do anything but sing their praises, at least from the volunteer aspect. I wasn't involved in the front end quoting process, but once the flying director arrived, the install, training, and operation went very smoothly, well minus equipment shipping issues do to the recent ice storm.



We are also using Zfx for Peter Pan in March. We have used them previously with Wizard of Oz and it was a wonderful experience, very professional.


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## Lextech (Dec 17, 2013)

We have used Delbert and ZFX and either can handle your show just fine. Talk to both.


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## flyweed (Dec 19, 2013)

we used ZFX for our productions of wizard of oz and peter pan. I can say NOTHING but how well prepared, and professional they were from the moment they stepped on our stage, until they departed, after lengthy training sessions with our flying crew. We had fun too, but it was all about safety first. I'd recommend them anytime, anyday, anywhere. 

Dan


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