# Church Video Mixing Upgrade



## Bubby4j (Jan 29, 2014)

Our church's youth ro
om has an absolutely awful video system. It all runs through composite video, and looks awful. The video mixer we have is an old analog piece of junk.

Anyways, here's what I've come up with, and I'd like to know if there's a better/cheaper way of doing this. First I'll explain what all we need to be able to do and what our setup is like.

Inputs: Computer in sound booth, Apple TV in sound booth, Satellite Receiver in sound booth, VGA input on stage. All of these can output HDMI (the computer with a DVI to HDMI adapter), except the VGA, which I have no clue how I'll deal with it.

Output devices: 2 HDTVs near the stage, 1 projector over the stage, 3 HDTVs in our cafe area (2 are 50' or less of cable run distance, one is longer but I'm not sure how much longer).

So, here's the plan that I've come up with for equipment.

Production Switcher: ATEM Television Studio - $945
MultiView Monitor for Switcher: $150 (Have not picked specific monitor)
Computer to control switcher: Mac Mini (Already own, not currently in use)
Switch output to 2 cafe TVs: HDMI Powered Splitter ($45), 2 50' HDMI cables ($54)
Switch output to stage TVs & projector, plus the other cafe TV: HD-SDI over coax to 4 SDI to HDMI Converters ($180)
SDI Distribution Amplifier for the 3 HD-SDI to HDMI converterters ($280)

Total cost: $1,654.85

Pricey.

Is there something I'm missing? Is there a cheaper way to do this? I've never done anything like this before.


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## Chris15 (Jan 30, 2014)

That's not pricey, that's cheap in the realm of digital distribution.

But converting from HDMI to HD-SDI you lose HDCP capacity. Apple TV is likely to block most of it's content if it cannot see the proper encrypted path end to end. Other source devices may also cause issues in this regard.
Assume also that cheap HDMI splitters may have issues also with keeping HDCP happy.


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## rsmentele (Jan 30, 2014)

the Blackmagic switcher is very tempting due to its price, but be careful! In your case where things don't change much it shouldn't be an issue, but that switcher requires that all inputs and outputs must have the exact same resolution!, it will not convert them for you, which means you need lots of outboard converters to get things to work.

Also, I agree with Chris15 on the HTCP issue. Apple products are notorious for that, so you need to make sure you can disable it at some point or that your switcher is HTCP compliant.


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## Bubby4j (Jan 30, 2014)

We only use the apple TV so we can play music wirelessly, and sometimes share the iDevice's screen, so no HDCP there.

The most major problem I see is that satellite, I suppose we'd have to run it analog.

The apple TV we have is only 720p, so that's lame.

What would be the next step up so that we can have multiple resolutions? How can we handle HDCP?

It's really lame that in this digital age of $700 HDTVs it costs multi-thousand dollars just to distribute video to it.


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## Bubby4j (Jan 30, 2014)

I think what I'll do is simply run the Satellite & Apple TV using component.

Shouldn't have a problem with any computers we plug in, nearly all computers can output 1920x1080.


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## Thefoxygranpa (Feb 5, 2014)

HDCP can not be distributed via SDI. How are you planning on converting analog signals[cable box and Apple TV) to SDI, the native format the Television studio is running?


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## Mwchris (Feb 5, 2014)

Bubby4j said:


> Our church's youth ro
> om has an absolutely awful video system. It all runs through composite video, and looks awful. The video mixer we have is an old analog piece of junk.
> 
> Anyways, here's what I've come up with, and I'd like to know if there's a better/cheaper way of doing this. First I'll explain what all we need to be able to do and what our setup is like.
> ...


 
I personally own a Black Magic ATEM 1 M/E. and I am echoing the previous posters in that with out built in scalers you might run into problems with what you are trying to do. That said BlackMagic makes some very well priced converters around $250 each that will get you to common input you need. 

HDCP issues - I have been successful in bypassing HDCP by using the component input on my ATEM 1 M/E, but there is only one component input on that device, and the TVS you are looking at doesn't have one at all. However, the Apple TV can't connect that way and you will be limited on what content you play back. There are devices that can spoof HDCP, but they can be quite a hassle.

Cable Runs - There is a good chance that 50' HDMI runs will NOT work. The cheapest solution is to by a video over IP converter. Other options include adapting over to HD-SDI, but this will be more expensive. Also the HD-SDI converter boxes will typically have a loop-through so you can just put a box at each display and loop out to the next display. This might be better than running home-runs, but assumes you will be showing the same image all all displays. You may also want to consider a Video Hub to serve as a patch panel and video routing device. They work wonderfully. Also keep in mind that "coax" and HD-SDI are not the same. Make sure you buy from a reputable company with cable that is designed to support such signals. 

Splitters/Adapters - As I mentioned above consider a Video Hub - that way you have back up connections. What will you do if one of your splitters/amplifiers go down? You might loose 2 to 3 displays based on your suggested connection method.

Sound - You didn't mention anything having to do with sound. The TVS only supports digital sound input. So I assume you are mixing outboard you will need a way to get the mixed sound to the input on the TVS so you can send it to some of your monitors. OR if you are capturing/streaming/recording from the TVS you will need the sound sent to it. With this you also need to think how you are going to get the sound from your HDMI/SDI devices. you either have to break it out before going into the TVS or take it from the TVS. You pick.

I love Black Magic products, but their cheap price frequently adds up once you add all the adapters and what not. That said, if you have the funds go for it. I would strongly suggest you pick up the 1 M/E model as it gives you more options, more inputs, aux. outputs (say you want to send something different to the lobby??) and analog audio inputs/outputs. The one thing you lose is the H.264 encoder, but you can pick that up on the side for $400 ish. 


I can tell you from experience you will probably need more than you spec. out but you are off to a good start.


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## Mwchris (Feb 5, 2014)

Bubby4j said:


> We only use the apple TV so we can play music wirelessly, and sometimes share the iDevice's screen, so no HDCP there.
> 
> The most major problem I see is that satellite, I suppose we'd have to run it analog.
> 
> ...



HDCP is a royal pain to be quite honest. The best suggestion is to rip the media you need and play it back on one of the attached computers. Of course this takes prior planning, but it really is the only work around in the presentation video projection world.

Satellite - I have never hooked one up to my device, but on my personal device I can set the resolution and it stays no matter what channel. I'd give it a try. It might just work. 

Newer Apple TVs support 1080p, but 1080p is not supported on the TVS. That leave you with a few options: a) Set all other devices to 720p to match the Apple TV.
b) By a scaler to convert the Apple TV signal to 1080i to match your other devices.
c) Use a computer to stream using AirPlay (which is what I assume you are doing). Newer Apple computers due this natively and you can change the resolution. Or you can buy software that will work on Apple or Windows computers that will also do (Air Parrot, Air Server, Reflector, etc.)


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## Mwchris (Feb 5, 2014)

Bubby4j said:


> I think what I'll do is simply run the Satellite & Apple TV using component.
> 
> Shouldn't have a problem with any computers we plug in, nearly all computers can output 1920x1080.



How are you going to connect the component signal to the switcher? 

Computer Resolution - Don't count on it! Not to mention not all device have HDMI or VGA out. Some even have display port, or mini display port. Black Magic products are very particular about the resolution. Do your self a favor and buy a scaler or two to have on hand just in case. (For example DVI to HDMI cables do not always work!)


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## Bubby4j (Feb 7, 2014)

I've considered nearly all of that.
Yes, I'll have to pick up a bunch of scalers to make everything work. It's still cheaper than the next steps up which I saw were at least $5k+.

Audio isn't an issue, we don't really care if it goes to the TVs or not. We have a separate audio system.

I've never seen a laptop (maybe a netbook) that didn't have some way to output VGA. Even with DisplayPort you can go to VGA.


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## Mwchris (Feb 8, 2014)

Bubby4j said:


> I've considered nearly all of that.
> Yes, I'll have to pick up a bunch of scalers to make everything work. It's still cheaper than the next steps up which I saw were at least $5k+.
> 
> Audio isn't an issue, we don't really care if it goes to the TVs or not. We have a separate audio system.
> ...



If you have considered all of the things I mentioned then why did you come here and say "Is there anything I'm missing, I've never done anything like this before." Your original post mentions nothing about the potential limitations of HDMI, among other things.

Sound WILL be an issue - How are you going to de-embed the sound from your HDMI sources to get it to your separate audio system? 

It isn't that you won't be able to find away to to get a laptop to VGA it is that you may not have the right adapter, some adapters do funky things and are not compatible with the ATEM, but more importantly there are many laptops that will not support the resolution the ATEM will be requesting. Thus the need for a scaler inline. 

I am just trying to help because I went through a similar process, and have helped dozens of others do exactly what you are doing. I encourage you to check out the following two sites for more information on Black Magic Products.

Atem User Forum - http://atemuser.com 

Black Magic Forum - http://forum.blackmagicdesign.com


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## Bubby4j (Feb 9, 2014)

Mwchris said:


> If you have considered all of the things I mentioned then why did you come here and say "Is there anything I'm missing, I've never done anything like this before." Your original post mentions nothing about the potential limitations of HDMI, among other things.
> 
> Sound WILL be an issue - How are you going to de-embed the sound from your HDMI sources to get it to your separate audio system?
> 
> ...


I meant that since you posted I thought about it, not that I considered it before my OP, sorry.

Thank you for your advice, very helpful.


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## museav (Feb 14, 2014)

Bubby4j said:


> We only use the apple TV so we can play music wirelessly, and sometimes share the iDevice's screen, so no HDCP there.


Be aware that while HDCP is usually triggered by the content calling for it, nothing prohibits devices enabling it even if the content does not call for it. Apple is infamous for some products that will do things like enable HDCP any time they are connected to an HDCP compliant device, even if the content does not call for HDCP.

I will reiterate the issues related to all of the inputs and outputs of the ATEM needing to be one common resolution. I will also note that I have had mixed luck with some HD-SDI-to-HDMI and HDMI-to-HD-SDI devices some are very particular regarding the signals, cables, etc. For example, one HDMI-to-HD-SDI device would apparently not work for signals that were video only and did not include audio while others got picky about things like RGB versus YUV color space (RGB color space is common for computers while HD-SDI uses YUV color space). Thus I agree with the suggestion to plan on needing to use some flexible scalers to convert signals to those compatible with the other devices involved.

Unless you are getting four HD-SDI-to-HDMI converters for a total of $180 versus $180 each then you might want to check your total cost. FWIW, I'd be rather dubious of a $45 HD-SDI-to-HDMI converter.

Don't forget the cost of all the other cables required and for the runs going to other areas consider if you might have to use in-wall or plenum rated cables if they are not being run in conduit.


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## kevlar557 (Apr 2, 2014)

With Apple devices, you specifically need to tell them that the HDCP sink is non-compliant or unauthorized, then they will unencrypt their output. For instance, I have a non-HDCP Barco video switcher. Plugging in an apple tv directly to it does not work, because there is no HDCP handshaking (successful or unsuccessful), so the apple tv keeps its output encrypted. Now if I run them through a set of Extron HDMI FOXBOX where I can turn HDCP authorization off, it will work. The Apple TV tries to handshake with the FOXBOX, but the FOXBOX tells it that there are no compliant sinks. Then the apple TV will unencrypt its output.

Can you run VGA to your display devices, instead of HDMI or HD-SDI? Analog is much cheaper to work with.


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## Bubby4j (Apr 2, 2014)

kevlar557 said:


> With Apple devices, you specifically need to tell them that the HDCP sink is non-compliant or unauthorized, then they will unencrypt their output. For instance, I have a non-HDCP Barco video switcher. Plugging in an apple tv directly to it does not work, because there is no HDCP handshaking (successful or unsuccessful), so the apple tv keeps its output encrypted. Now if I run them through a set of Extron HDMI FOXBOX where I can turn HDCP authorization off, it will work. The Apple TV tries to handshake with the FOXBOX, but the FOXBOX tells it that there are no compliant sinks. Then the apple TV will unencrypt its output.
> 
> Can you run VGA to your display devices, instead of HDMI or HD-SDI? Analog is much cheaper to work with.


That might be a better way to go. I'll be researching.


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## museav (Apr 8, 2014)

kevlar557 said:


> With Apple devices, you specifically need to tell them that the HDCP sink is non-compliant or unauthorized, then they will unencrypt their output. For instance, I have a non-HDCP Barco video switcher. Plugging in an apple tv directly to it does not work, because there is no HDCP handshaking (successful or unsuccessful), so the apple tv keeps its output encrypted. Now if I run them through a set of Extron HDMI FOXBOX where I can turn HDCP authorization off, it will work. The Apple TV tries to handshake with the FOXBOX, but the FOXBOX tells it that there are no compliant sinks. Then the apple TV will unencrypt its output.


I'm not clear what you mean by "unencrypt". What I think is happening is that seeing a non-HDCP device the source device does not enable HDCP, thus it does not prevent outputting unencrypted content. However, turning off HDCP at the switcher input should prevent AACS encrypted HD content being output from the related source device. Basically, an input being non-HDCP may prevent triggering HDCP at the device but would also seem to prevent that input accepting encrypted HD content. So if you never deal with encrypted HD content then turning off HDCP at the switcher inputs may be a good solution but if you ever want or need to address encrypted HD content via that switcher input then it may not be the best option.

As I often have to point out, you somrtimes have to beware of how you interpret equipment being identified as being HDCP compliant as that does not necessarily mean it will accept or pass HDCP encrypted content, it simply means it will respond to HDCP handshakes as it should. Thus a device that will accept HDCP encrypted content is HDCP compliant but so is a device that does not accept HDCP encrypted content and responds that way to a HDCP handshake as it is doing what the HDCP standards define. I've seen this be relevant with several HDMI-to-3G/HD/SD-SDI converters that identify their being HDCP compliant but that being in the sense that since SDI does not support HDCP they respond to any HDCP handshake indicating that they do not support HDCP.


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## kevlar557 (Apr 8, 2014)

museav said:


> I'm not clear what you mean by "unencrypt". What I think is happening is that seeing a non-HDCP device the source device does not enable HDCP, thus it does not prevent outputting unencrypted content. However, turning off HDCP at the switcher input should prevent AACS encrypted HD content being output from the related source device. Basically, an input being non-HDCP may prevent triggering HDCP at the device but would also seem to prevent that input accepting encrypted HD content. So if you never deal with encrypted HD content then turning off HDCP at the switcher inputs may be a good solution but if you ever want or need to address encrypted HD content via that switcher input then it may not be the best option.



"unencrypt" meaning that the output of the Apple TV is not encrypted with HDCP, and can be viewed on any device capable of HDMI/DVI video. Apple devices always encrypt their output, unless a repeater or sink handshakes with it.

Here's a nice paper by the guys at Quantum Data that explains a good amount of the HDCP handshaking process and how to make sure it works
http://www.quantumdata.com/resources/White Paper/HDCP_WP.pdf


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## museav (Apr 8, 2014)

kevlar557 said:


> "unencrypt" meaning that the output of the Apple TV is not encrypted with HDCP, and can be viewed on any device capable of HDMI/DVI video. Apple devices always encrypt their output, unless a repeater or sink handshakes with it.
> 
> Here's a nice paper by the guys at Quantum Data that explains a good amount of the HDCP handshaking process and how to make sure it works
> http://www.quantumdata.com/resources/White Paper/HDCP_WP.pdf


Good information in that reference, but my point was that the source device cannot ignore when the content calls for HDCP encryption and protected HD content cannot be delivered to a non-HDCP device. Thus turning HDCP off at the receiver will prevent the transmitter from enabling HDCP but that also prevents the transmitter from transmitting protected content. I do not believe the transmitter will 'unecrypt' protected HD content and output that to non-HDCP receivers as that would seem to defeat the entire concept of HDCP.

I also understood that the issue, originally related primarily to the Mac mini but apparently becoming common with am increasing number of devices with digital AV outputs, was that those devices enable HDCP whenever connected to a HDCP receiver rather than just when the content called for it, see http://www.kramerelectronics.com/downloads/white-papers/integrate_macmini_4.pdf. It isn't that HDCP is enabled without a handshake but rather that if the handshake says the receiver device accepts HDCP encrypted content then the transmitter device enables HDCP regardless of whether the content requests it or not. And that can become more of an issue in situation such as where you have intermediary devices between such a transmiiter and one or more receivers.

An example of both issues that I encountered was a project where we had multiple inputs into a matrix switcher which then fed multiple devices including both display devices that supported HDCP as well as HDMI-to-HD-SDI converters that do not , and cannot, support HDCP. If we enabled HDCP for a switcher input then destinations that supported HDCP could receive HDCP content from the related source devices but source devices that enabled HDCP regardless of the content would result in no output from the HDMI-to-HD-SDI converters regardless of whether the content was encrypted or not. If we disabled HDCP for the related switcher inputs then unencrypted content could be routed to all destinations including the HDMI-to-HD-SDI converters, which resolved the issue for unenecrypted content, however because HDCP was off at the switcher input that also prevented routing any HDCP content to destinations that supported HDCP.


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## kevlar557 (Apr 10, 2014)

Of course the protected content will not be unencrypted, it simply will not be displayed. Your paper from Kramer is 100% correct. However, I said nothing about a Mac Mini, I was talking about an Apple TV, which works differently than the Mac Mini does. On Apple TVs, the HDCP is enabled when there is no handshaking. Period. (unless they've updated them recently). The ONLY WAY to get them to output unencrypted video is to hook them up to a repeater or sink that you can disable/enable HDCP Authorization.

When it all comes down to it, HDMI and HDCP sucks haha.


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## kevlar557 (Apr 10, 2014)

And when I refer to "Apple Devices", I am referring to Apple TVs, iPhone, iPad, iPod, not their PCs.


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## Bubby4j (Apr 10, 2014)

kevlar557 said:


> Of course the protected content will not be unencrypted, it simply will not be displayed. Your paper from Kramer is 100% correct. However, I said nothing about a Mac Mini, I was talking about an Apple TV, which works differently than the Mac Mini does. On Apple TVs, the HDCP is enabled when there is no handshaking. Period. (unless they've updated them recently). The ONLY WAY to get them to output unencrypted video is to hook them up to a repeater or sink that you can disable/enable HDCP Authorization.
> 
> When it all comes down to it, HDMI and HDCP sucks haha.



Yes, yes it does. The world would be a whole lot simpler if everything used SDI.


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## kevlar557 (Apr 10, 2014)

You have no idea... I just finished a job up where we had 4 operating rooms with video feeds going back to an amphitheater over fiber. In these ORs, they have medical-grade cameras that have HDMI and HD-SDI on their CCUs. Of course, the head of AV at this healthcare institutuin wanted to do HDMI, instead of HD-SDI. When it was all said and done, the camera's HDMI out didn't like to play nice with the fiber converters, and the fiber converters didn't work with half of the gear on the other end. The manufacturer of the fiber converters (hint: starts with an "e", ends in an "xtron") had to come out, and they had to write a custom firmware for the converters. OR they could have used the existing copper, used HD-SDI, and called it a day (which is what we ended up doing after 3 months of troubleshooting)


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