# Leg and Border Fullness



## AlexDonkle (Dec 1, 2014)

Doing some research on trends of venues having fullness sewn into their legs and border curtains. My general understanding has been that traditional legs and borders had 50% fullness sewn in (what i've seen in most theatres I've worked in), but the more modern trend is sewing them flat. For legs this makes sense, since you can tie in the fullness per-show and change it, but with borders that seems much more difficult and like they'd just remain flat for productions. 
Does anyone know what the cause of this has been? I'm curious if it's just aesthetic preferences changing over time or more simply a cost driven trend.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Dec 1, 2014)

Its never been cost driven for me. I personally prefer the harder edge look of masking sewn flat, but not all do.when a client can't decide or wants both, I just have them sewn flat and 50% wider than needed. (I have with borders had three 30' pieces where a 60' is called for, which allows for additional borders.) 

I found the push for flat seems to have been strongest in the modern dance world, but no science in that conclusion. Tom Skelton did discuss that some dance companies even tried framed masking for a really straight, clean edge, but of course a dancer clipping it could easily be injured, so not done much.


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## derekleffew (Dec 1, 2014)

I asked similar, and never receive much response, here:

derekleffew said:


> ...Another topic:
> I see from perusing current riders on the Internet most [dance] companies request/demand that all goods be flat, without pleats. While I understand and agree, I wonder how much of a fuss they make when the majority of masking, especially in receiving houses, has at least 50% fullness?


Here's my unsolicited opinion: flat disappears better, so if used solely for masking, as in a venue for drama, flat always. If there is *no* scenery to speak of, legs, borders (and cyc) *become* the scenic elements, so 50% fullness. Except for dance, zero-fullness flat-sewn drapes appear too stark and bare. For the typical multi-purpose high school auditorium, definitely 50% fullness for legs/borders and 100% for the main rag.

FWIW, I've never bought into the "sew everything flat and extra-wide and add desired fullness when it's tied onto the batten" school. Takes longer, never looks as good, involves math.


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## Footer (Dec 1, 2014)

The only venues you ever see fullness sewn in on anything besides the main rag is in high school and community venues. I have never seen a professional house with fullness sewn in the goods. Therefore, to me, the look has always been non-professional looking and should be avoided. All fullness does in my opinion is allows a drapery company to sell more product and labor. I have never met a person who actually works in a space say "I love the fullness of my soft goods". It is one the reasons I think you only see it in the venues where no one knows better... the drapery sales person just gives them whatever he/she feels is best and it is a easy way to run up the bill.


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## JChenault (Dec 1, 2014)

Footer said:


> The only venues you ever see fullness sewn in on anything besides the main rag is in high school and community venues. I have never seen a professional house with fullness sewn in the goods. Therefore, to me, the look has always been non-professional looking and should be avoided. All fullness does in my opinion is allows a drapery company to sell more product and labor. I have never met a person who actually works in a space say "I love the fullness of my soft goods". It is one the reasons I think you only see it in the venues where no one knows better... the drapery sales person just gives them whatever he/she feels is best and it is a easy way to run up the bill.



Slight disagreement. I see fullness on curtains that are on traveler tracks as well. Ie if there is a mid stage black, or if there is a traveler that can close to cover the cyc, those usually seem to have fullness as well.


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## techieman33 (Dec 1, 2014)

JChenault said:


> Slight disagreement. I see fullness on curtains that are on traveler tracks as well. Ie if there is a mid stage black, or if there is a traveler that can close to cover the cyc, those usually seem to have fullness as well.



That's how my venue is, The main and act curtain are 100% fullness, and the full black upstage is 50% fullness. All legs and borders are sewn flat. Our legs usually have some fullness though since they are on travelers, they are only flat when all the way out, or we rehang them to be flat.


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## kicknargel (Dec 2, 2014)

One reason to prefer borders to be flat is so if they are cause shadows in spill from backlight, say, those shadows aren't all wavy and gross.


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## tprewitt (Dec 3, 2014)

Footer said:


> ... All fullness does in my opinion is allows a drapery company to sell more product and labor. I have never met a person who actually works in a space say "I love the fullness of my soft goods". It is one the reasons I think you only see it in the venues where no one knows better... the drapery sales person just gives them whatever he/she feels is best and it is a easy way to run up the bill.



Being a drapery sales guy I have to disagree; on principal if nothing else.  We do default to 50% fullness for most drapes. The reasons are varied. For every PAC with a knowledgeable crew there are hundreds of schools and community theatres. Flat drapes look good if they are dressed and hung straight. In a PAC with a knowledgeable crew the stagehands will tighten up tie lines and pull drapes out flat without giving it much thought. In less active spaces they may not be touched by a knowledgeable person for years and will look terrible. 

Fullness provides better sound dampening and will appear more opaque. This allows you to use a lighter weight fabric to achieve the same performance, although few people ever take advantage of this. (IMO, People often get way too stuck on fabric weight.)

For the OP and most spaces with a professional crew I believe flat probably will be better. I like the method Bill posted above. Flat will tend to look modern and some shows that is undesirable. (I'm not going to complain about the 50% increase in my sale...) 

I think there are as many ways to price drapes are their are drape manufacturers but I think most will price a 15' wide flat drape notably cheaper than a 10' wide 50% full drape. Sewing nice straight pleats takes a lot of time. 

Other tidbits I'd consider: With few exceptions, 25% fullness looks like poorly hung/ poorly sewn flat drapes. If you put chain in the bottom of flat borders your nice crisp line gets muddled. Pipe weight is best, weight tape is a nice compromise.


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## carproelsofly (Dec 3, 2014)

All of the venues around here have flat drapes (except for mains and sometimes travelers). My main is also flat, as it needs to store in a pretty tight spot. That fullness at the bottom of a drape also gets to be a big deal when your linesets are on tight centers.

The other thing you can do with flat drapes, as tprewitt pointed out, is pipe the bottoms. I've seen this done with legs and with borders, and it gives a very crisp look. It also allows legs to be tagged to the floor to keep them from wiggling during dance performances.

I have both flat and 50% fullness goods available for my US traveler, and almost no one specifically asks for the one with fullness. Maybe just an aesthetic trend... probably Steve Jobs' fault.

HTH,
Jen


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## BillConnerFASTC (Dec 3, 2014)

carproelsofly said:


> All of the venues around here have flat drapes (except for mains and sometimes travelers). My main is also flat, as it needs to store in a pretty tight spot. That fullness at the bottom of a drape also gets to be a big deal when your linesets are on tight centers.
> 
> The other thing you can do with flat drapes, as tprewitt pointed out, is pipe the bottoms. I've seen this done with legs and with borders, and it gives a very crisp look. It also allows legs to be tagged to the floor to keep them from wiggling during dance performances.
> 
> ...



With all due respect, I think putting pipes in leg hems, let alone tagging them to the floor, for dance is nearly irresponsible, as it has and will lead to injuries to the performers.


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## carproelsofly (Dec 3, 2014)

What have you seen for injuries, Bill? Are they as a result of the leg not giving if a dancer runs into it? Or from the pipe on the floor?

I'm just curious, as I haven't heard that before.

Thanks,
Jen


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## kiwitechgirl (Dec 3, 2014)

Personally I LOATHE seeing borders with fullness sewn in. Don't know why, I just hate the look! Tabs it doesn't bother me and legs I've never really thought about!


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## BillConnerFASTC (Dec 4, 2014)

carproelsofly said:


> What have you seen for injuries, Bill? Are they as a result of the leg not giving if a dancer runs into it? Or from the pipe on the floor?
> 
> I'm just curious, as I haven't heard that before.
> 
> ...


Dancer striking hard object, like pipe end.


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## carproelsofly (Dec 4, 2014)

Ah. Yes, I can imagine that happening. The way I've seen it done here is to have the bottom pipe stick out about an inch from the drape on each end, with plumbers' strap over it to pin it down, and a little scrap of carpet over that, then tape marking a larger space around it. I don't know of any injuries, but obviously that is on people's minds.


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## Cryophallion (Dec 7, 2014)

In fairness, I do work for a company that sews stage curtains. I've always preferred 50% fullness, but until I had a long conversation with a person who preferred flat, I didn't understand why. There is a consideration many forget. 
Note: This is more applicable to rep or general use spaces. When a dance is hanging all their own goods, I have no issues with going all flat. But for most spaces, there is something that happens that makes flat look horrible:
Most stages have a midstage or rear traveler. When stacked/open, this will necessarily have fullness as the carriers stack the fabric. Now, many places also use these for masking when open, they function as if they are another leg. 

If the leg is flat, there is suddenly a couple flat legs, then a "full leg" then another flat leg: it looks off, and ruins the suspension of disbelief for me as the world has something incrongruous in the "frame". Think of how a painting would look with two ornate sides and the two other sides with just plain boxy sides to the frame. I much prefer a unified and consistent look to the frame, it better allows my eyes to make the masking disappear as a united whole, instead of looking like someone forgot to realize that a stacked curtain is full. 

So, in this case, for any general use space, I always say go with 50% full. It's not to make more money, it's to make the space look better in a multitude of use cases. Now, telling someone to go with 100% fullness on the main? That seems like overkill (I'd much prefer to use grommet-in pleat to make it look more full anyway). But 50% full makes sense, unless it's a specific application.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Dec 7, 2014)

Your comment about 100% fullness being overkill - it certainly can be - but is not a one size fits all. In larger spaces with more seats at greater distance, I find the greater fullness helps keep the main from appearing flat. A 7500 seat house with a 60 to 100' proscenium opening might benefit from 100% fullness, but I too find 50% more than adequate for most main travelers. The other problem of course is stacking depth - it gets really fat US to DS with 100%.


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## Cryophallion (Dec 7, 2014)

True, 100% can have usages (including for sound in some cases). I still prefer grommet-in pleat for those types of situation instead of box pleats, because it actually makes the fabric seem more full comparatively. Although, most spaces of the size you speak of are more likely to be professional houses, rather than the general use spaces I was referring to in this context.


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