# Hooking up house lights to DMX



## lighttechie5948

Hi All,

In the theatre I'm currently designing in, the house lights are hooked up to a wall switch by the back of the house. I was talking with the producer and about hooking up the house lights to our ETC Express 250. Is there a way to do this? My first thought was to have an electrician come in and put female edison outlets for the house lights in the booth then hook then up to a cheap 4 chan dimmer pack with Male Edison -> Male Edison, but that wouldn't work because we'd still want the wall outlet to be functional for rehearsals, etc. and with that method it would be getting the power from the dimmer pack and not the breaker that the wall switch controls.

Is there some sort of DMX adapter that I can have an electrician install that would be a secondary control for the house lights (meaning that we would turn off the wall switch and then turn on the control channels on the console to turn on the house lights before the show)

Or is there another way to do this?

Thanks!


Best,
Joe


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## starksk

lighttechie5948 said:


> ...In the theatre I'm currently designing in, the house lights are hooked up to a wall switch by the back of the house....



A few questions for the good of the order:

When you say "wall switch" do you mean something like either of these:




Or something like this:


Secondly, how are your houselights powered now? Can you dim them currently or are they on/off only?


lighttechie5948 said:


> ... My first thought was to have an electrician come in and put female edison outlets for the house lights in the booth then hook then up to a cheap 4 chan dimmer pack with Male Edison -> Male Edison, but that wouldn't work because we'd still want the wall outlet to be functional for rehearsals, etc. and with that method it would be getting the power from the dimmer pack and not the breaker that the wall switch controls....



I think that you will find that most people here are against building suicide adapters.
See threads: "Suicide Cable" and Licensed, Certified, Qualified
A properly installed patch panel would do what you are describing, but you would still run into the issue of needing to patch the houselight circuits back to this "wall switch" controlled output. 


lighttechie5948 said:


> ...Is there some sort of DMX adapter that I can have an electrician install that would be a secondary control for the house lights (meaning that we would turn off the wall switch and then turn on the control channels on the console to turn on the house lights before the show)
> 
> Or is there another way to do this?



The best method to do this is to have an installation architectural dimmer rack installed (if it is not already). Then, you can control that rack via DMX when you want to use the Express console, or control it via installed wall controls akin to the 10-button station referenced above.


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## lighttechie5948

starksk said:


> A few questions for the good of the order:
> 
> When you say "wall switch" do you mean something like either of these:
> 
> 
> 
> Or something like this:
> 
> 
> Secondly, how are your houselights powered now? Can you dim them currently or are they on/off only?
> 
> 
> 
> I think that you will find that most people here are against building suicide adapters.
> See threads: "Suicide Cable" and Licensed, Certified, Qualified
> A properly installed patch panel would do what you are describing, but you would still run into the issue of needing to patch the houselight circuits back to this "wall switch" controlled output.
> 
> 
> 
> The best method to do this is to have an installation architectural dimmer rack installed (if it is not already). Then, you can control that rack via DMX when you want to use the Express console, or control it via installed wall controls akin to the 10-button station referenced above.



We have one of the on/off wall switches like in the 1st photo by the entrance to the theatre, and one of the dimmable switches (again like in the 1st photo) in what used to be the lighting booth. 

I know I could get the ETC Unison but wouldn't that be very expensive? We're looking for something as cheap as possible.

Also, the licensed electrician we'd ask is on the board of directors at the theatre.


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## gafftapegreenia

Does the NEC allow a permanently installed and wired house light circuit and it's switch to be powered from a flexible cord? I know it could be done with a proper patch panel, but I take it they don't have the budget for that. 

As in, a length of SOOW would come out of the wall from the box of the toggle switch and then plug into a dimmer or for constant power, a nearby branch circuit. 

I can't quote code but this just doesn't seem legal. 

Ok, so you can't afford a Unison. Here's the cheaper and effective alternative. Find whatever spare instruments you have, preferably scoops, but PARs or Fresnel's can work. These can make great houselights and it's something I do quite often, especially in small or "non-conventional" spaces. Control those from the board through whatever extra dimmers you have, or from the 4 channel pack you suggested. This is a lot more flexible and SAFER than tampering with permanent wiring. No offense to your licensed electrician, and I'm sure he's a stand up fellow who does effective work, but the intricacies and requirements of entertainment wiring are much different than running some romex in your home. I've been in too many elementary and middle schools with some ad-hoc system cobbled together by some kids "licensed electrician" parent. Sure this system meets code when located in a wall, but not when they're screwed to some plywood. Again, I don't want to assume, and your guy could very well know what he's doing in terms of entertainment electricity, but wiring a house and wiring a theatre are very different ball games.


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## CSCTech

I would suggest having ETC come in (Or whatever company makes your dimmer rack) to install an archetectual control system, and have them re-route the power to the houselights from it's breaker to an x open dimmers, if you have open ones. This way you can control the house lights with the Express and when the Express is off just press the button on the wall station. 

But coming from a low budget facility,
I am not an electrician, but I would think the cheapest thing to do would be to have the electricion come in and by pass the On/Off switch, remove the wall dimmer in the booth and replace it with a male edison 'pigtail', get a dimmer pack, connect the edison 'pig tail' to the pack, and connect the pack to Universe 2 on your Express. This why you won't have any suicide cable around.

However, can you explain what you have for houselights? Because one wall outlet most likely will not power them all.
Our houselights are run off 10 dimmers in our Colortran i96.

Edit- 
Like gafftapegreenia said, This is probably not legal, and the electrician could probably tell you that. 
I think it would be legal if the houselights could get emergency power? Because your in the dark if theres a power outage on the dimmer pack isnt on a genorator powered socket. 
(Our house gets power from the dimmer rack, but if the dimmer rack is off and the genorator kicks in every other row of house lights will come on %50.)


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## starksk

lighttechie5948 said:


> We have one of the on/off wall switches like in the 1st photo by the entrance to the theatre, and one of the dimmable switches (again like in the 1st photo) in what used to be the lighting booth.
> 
> I know I could get the ETC Unison but wouldn't that be very expensive? We're looking for something as cheap as possible.
> 
> Also, the licensed electrician we'd ask is on the board of directors at the theatre.


 
While I do have a biased preference as to which solution you choose, another solution that you might consider is to wire your houselights to a DMX controlled dimming pack and use a Doug Fleenor Design Preset 10 unit as your wall control. The Preset 10 allows you to record the looks that you want to play back, then when there is no other DMX on the line, it will send whatever stored look you select to your dimmer pack. When DMX is on, it doesn't send anything, allowing you to control the pack from your console.


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## kicknargel

Short of installing a Unison system, and if I understand the setup correctly, I can envision a scenario that would work, but would probably take pulling some new wires.

Have your electrician wire the switch in the entrance so that it doesn't control the houselights, but controls an outlet in the booth. Wire the houselights to a male plug "pigtail" in the booth. You can then choose to plug the houselights into a portable dimmer pack, as you mentioned, or into the outlet that is controlled by the switch.

The more I think about this, the more I like it! Eliminates the risk of come custodian turning on the houselights in the middle of a show (as I've had happen in Unison system houses, until I started taping them over or taking of the faceplates).


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## CSCTech

kicknargel said:


> Short of installing a Unison system, and if I understand the setup correctly, I can envision a scenario that would work, but would probably take pulling some new wires.
> 
> Have your electrician wire the switch in the entrance so that it doesn't control the houselights, but controls an outlet in the booth. Wire the houselights to a male plug "pigtail" in the booth. You can then choose to plug the houselights into a portable dimmer pack, as you mentioned, or into the outlet that is controlled by the switch.
> 
> The more I think about this, the more I like it! Eliminates the risk of come custodian turning on the houselights in the middle of a show (as I've had happen in Unison system houses, until I started taping them over or taking of the faceplates).


 
I like this idea better then mine


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## kicknargel

Geez, we all had almost the same idea at once! There are certainly some questions to the safety of the implementation, but I do love an elegant, analog solution to a problem.


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## gafftapegreenia

kicknargel said:


> The more I think about this, the more I like it! Eliminates the risk of come custodian turning on the houselights in the middle of a show (as I've had happen in Unison system houses, until I started taping them over or taking of the faceplates).



Did you try talking to your custodial staff? Making friends with your custodial and maintenance people is often very effective, and tampering with Unison faceplates just sounds like a bad idea. I hope you always put them back on when you leave. 

I'll tell ya, even though my space's custodian is on duty every day, he's still thankful when I take the time to tell him about the events coming up in the next few weeks.


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## kicknargel

In this case, I was with a pro (ish) company renting one of those school/community mixed use spaces. From the entry vom you couldn't really see that there was anything going on in the theater, so they'd come in on their normal cleaning rounds and hit the button.


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## Studio

starksk said:


> While I do have a biased preference as to which solution you choose, another solution that you might consider is to wire your houselights to a DMX controlled dimming pack and use a Doug Fleenor Design Preset 10 unit as your wall control. The Preset 10 allows you to record the looks that you want to play back, then when there is no other DMX on the line, it will send whatever stored look you select to your dimmer pack. When DMX is on, it doesn't send anything, allowing you to control the pack from your console.



I also would recommend the Preset 10. Our school has it in both theaters and it works very well and replaced an architectural system that was always problematic. Sometimes simple is the best thing. We have the older version so there are 10 presets, an Off button, and led indicators. We have them hooked up so there is one on stage and one in the booth. Also there are toggle switches in the house that trigger preset 1. The best part is when the board is on the presets don't work so no one will be able to accidentally turn on house lights. It sure beats tape.


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## HansH

There is a less expensive option with ETC Unison -- ETC SmartLink is fairly affordable and gives you the flexibility that you want. It may also be out of your price range, but it's something else to consider.

In any event, as you've said, this is something for which you'll need a licensed electrician. You're going to be spending some significant amount of money no matter what way you go. If I were you, I'd make it worth it. Get some good quality dimmers that are reliable. Remember, if a stage light goes out, you're fine. If house lights are unreliable, you're running into bigger issues there.

Other questions to consider -- is this on a three-way switch? Also, what is the load of your house lights? If it's right at 10A or over, you'll need to look carefully at the dimmers you choose. 

Finally, I personally always prefer to have guaranteed control of my house lights. The simple (and quite elegant) analog houselight solution above is possible, but having someone remember to switch over the houselights seems like it could have its problems. Something like the DFD Preset 10 or ETC Smartlink (or the others out there) has some level of DMX arbitration without the possibility of you not being in control.


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## kiwitechgirl

Our houselights are permanently wired into a dimmer but it's been done cleverly so that they're switch controlled as well. There's a regular wall switch backstage, and then the control room has a "work mode" and "show mode" switch. In work mode, the house lights are controlled from the switch backstage (and there's one in the control room as well), in show mode they're controlled by the lighting desk. I have no idea how it is wired up, but it's a solution which works very well provided I remember not to turn the house light dimmer pack off (because then the cleaners can't do their job!).


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## Edrick

Lets first start off with the suggestion of taking the houselights and take the feed to them and attaching a plug onto the end of it and nix it right there. This is most certainly a code violation and a danger along with a nuisance. 

Now I can't specifically quote codes however I'm sure one of the members here will be able to, or I can see what I can find. There's codes against using plugs on the end of romex or using plugs for permanent installs like that. The other issue with this is, depending on your venue size that switch could just be part of a relay. Lets say you have 20x 100 Watt Recessed fixtures in the space. that'd be (for quick math) 20A (actually works out to under 20 but over 15A). Now you might have florescent fixtures so it'd be different in that case. So if that's the case you'll be over the rating of a standard circuit (although it could be on a 20A circuit) in which chase you'd use a 20A Plug. 

Now without seeing the space I can't give exact information but its possible that the lighting has multiple feeds and runs to a relay of sorts, or multiple breakers, or something along the line of that. It's possible it's run to an emergency backup system. That whole panel that the lighting circuit is connected to could be connected to a standby generator. 

What if someone forgets to replug the houselights into the regular switch and the dimmers aren't connected? 

Also it's possible that the feed for the lighting is completely on the other side of where your booth is. 

In the end what you want to do is against code and good practice. In this case it would be best to leave it as be, or find a way to obtain the budget to do it the proper way. Electrical work is not something you want to do on the cheap.


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## gafftapegreenia

Edrick said:


> In the end what you want to do is against code and good practice. In this case it would be best to leave it as be, or find a way to obtain the budget to do it the proper way. Electrical work is not something you want to do on the cheap.


 
Exactly my sentiments. While I can imagine ways to make it work without devices from DFD or ETC, I doubt any of them are legal.


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## Edrick

Yeah there's no doubt in my mind there's ways to make it work and back in the day I would of done it myself. Sure you can find where the feed is run to and splice in your own connection and have it work. Heck it probably won't catch on fire if you do it somewhat right (proper gauge wiring, termination, etc...). But in the case of a setup like this and what the space is used for it's best to do it right and not tempt fate. Plus what you're doing would only cause headaches in future renovations for if they ever do decide to do it proper. 

The biggest thing is it's a public space (or at least public to the fact that it's used for students). There's all sorts of legalities involved, codes, and safety issues that could happen and last thing you want is to be known as the cause of 500 injured children if a fire was to occur from it or someone was to get injured in an emergency because you bypassed a building safety measure.


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## derekleffew

lighttechie5948 said:


> We have one of the on/off wall switches like in the 1st photo by the entrance to the theatre, and one of the dimmable switches (again like in the 1st photo) in what used to be the lighting booth. ...


So you have a toggle switch in two locations, and the booth one dims (do you have to hold it or do you just push it up/down and the lights fade in a pre-determined time?) and the audience one is on-off? Sounds like you already have a primitive "architectural control system." Both "switches" are likely low voltage back to a dimmer/non-dim box (probably located near the stage dimmers). Have your friendly local dealer come out and investigate the system, and make a recommendation. Depending on what is already there, to achieve what you want might cost $500 or $50,000, but probably something in between.


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## SteveB

gafftapegreenia said:


> Does the NEC allow a permanently installed and wired house light circuit and it's switch to be powered from a flexible cord? I know it could be done with a proper patch panel, but I take it they don't have the budget for that.



My understanding of how the NEC deals with house lights, is if there's a separate system for illumination provided, be it battery packs with floods or flood lights wired to a generator, any other house lighting is considered part of the performance system and you can do what you want, so long as what you do meets other sections of the code pertaining to places of public assembly.

My chime in comments to the OP is to caution that the house lighting system for a place of public assembly has particular and very stringent code requirements and you need to ascertain if the existing general illumination system is part of any emergency system, I.E. are there relay systems of any kind that activate the system you want to control, and/or is this system activated in any way by a generator ?. You cannot "softwire" the house lighting that is part of an emergency system, it needs to be hard wired completely. Nor can you change the control end unless you provide for the emergency system to be able to over-ride any other control systems. 

Just a heads up as to the potential complexities of what you are wanting to change.


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## techno89

SteveB said:


> My understanding of how the NEC deals with house lights, is if there's a separate system for illumination provided, be it battery packs with floods or flood lights wired to a generator, any other house lighting is considered part of the performance system and you can do what you want, so long as what you do meets other sections of the code pertaining to places of public assembly.
> 
> My chime in comments to the OP is to caution that the house lighting system for a place of public assembly has particular and very stringent code requirements and you need to ascertain if the existing general illumination system is part of any emergency system, I.E. are there relay systems of any kind that activate the system you want to control, and/or is this system activated in any way by a generator ?. You cannot "softwire" the house lighting that is part of an emergency system, it needs to be hard wired completely. Nor can you change the control end unless you provide for the emergency system to be able to over-ride any other control systems.
> 
> Just a heads up as to the potential complexities of what you are wanting to change.


 

Basically its like in my theatre, we have house lights, theres an on off switch downstairs from the booth that will turn the lights on and enable the control of them from a little dimming switch in the booth or shut the off and shut of the dimming switch in the booth, but independent of that if the power goes out our exit lights have flood lights which will light up if the power goes out.


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## cdub260

kiwitechgirl said:


> Our houselights are permanently wired into a dimmer but it's been done cleverly so that they're switch controlled as well. There's a regular wall switch backstage, and then the control room has a "work mode" and "show mode" switch. In work mode, the house lights are controlled from the switch backstage (and there's one in the control room as well), in show mode they're controlled by the lighting desk. I have no idea how it is wired up, but it's a solution which works very well provided I remember not to turn the house light dimmer pack off (because then the cleaners can't do their job!).


 
What you're describing here is actually a relatively simple setup. You're switching back and forth between two different power sources via a relay switch. In my venue I could do this install for the cost of the parts, which without taking the time to look up, I would estimate to be around $500.00. That said, I am qualified to do the installation and therefore would not have to bring on an outside electrician. In the case of the OP's venue, installing a relay to switch between the dimming system and straight power could run reasonably close to that or into the several thousand dollars range, depending on how much additional wiring needs to be added to the building. If the electrician has to install all new conduit to accommodate the new wiring, it will cost a lot more than if he can run the new electrics in existing conduit. Additionally, the venue would be permanently dedicating a portion of it's dimming system exclusively to house lights. Regardless, the price tag should come in at far less than the installation of an architectural dimming system. However, it will lack the versatility of those systems.


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## dmoes

to do this on the cheep 
How about a relay controlled bypass 


You have a wall switch that controls a DPDT relay so that when energized the relay connects the houselights to power from the mains. when not energized the relay connects the lights to a dimmers output. this would eliminate any plugs and flex cords and so on and is simple to operate. no different to the user than a regular on off switch. When there is a rehearsal or some need to use the houselights without turning on the LX board they just turn on the switch to turn on the house and the relay bypasses the dimmers. To use lights during a show or when you want dmx control of the house lights then just have the switch off (not bypassed) the switch circuit could be a 3way so that the house can be turned on from more than one location. and since its only handling the control for a relay it will be low voltage and current.

the only downfall is you will need to protect the switches during a show to prevent someone turning on the house lights in error. If done properly a relay switchover like this is legal and is safe.


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## dmoes

Sorry cdub260 I wasnt stealling your Idea rather I must have been writing my reply when you posted 

great minds think alike!


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## cdub260

dmoes said:


> Sorry cdub260 I wasnt stealling your Idea rather I must have been writing my reply when you posted
> 
> great minds think alike!


 
I like the diagram. It really simplifies the explanation.


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## headcrab

I think this violates the TOS. This thread has turned into a "how-to" about something electrical. What is there to prevent anyone from "hacking" something, doing it completely wrong, and causing a fire? I have no problem with doing things on the cheap, but when it comes to safety or energy sources, it must be done safely.


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## DuckJordan

headcrab said:


> I think this violates the TOS. This thread has turned into a "how-to" about something electrical. What is there to prevent anyone from "hacking" something, doing it completely wrong, and causing a fire? I have no problem with doing things on the cheap, but when it comes to safety or energy sources, it must be done safely.


 

This is far from TOS Violations, In no way have we explained how each step goes, just a basic outline, and unless your familiar with electrical (meaning an electrician) you wouldn't be able to jump into a this project. But it does bring up something that i think has been completely missed. Bring in a pro to look at the space, none of us can tell you what you need based upon your information. Plus a pro could offer suggestions we aren't even aware of.

So do us all a favor and don't do this on your own, specially with something that's strict on its codes like this.


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## headcrab

My bad, I apologize.


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## Grog12

What's a nutral?


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## ptero

Nutral is a level 65 gryphon and wind rider flight master located at the Terrace of Light in the neutral Shattrath City.


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## Grog12

ptero said:


> Nutral is a level 65 gryphon and wind rider flight master located at the Terrace of Light in the *neutral* Shattrath City.


 
Excellent excellent reference. ((says the resident nerd mod))


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## dmoes

headcrab said:


> I think this violates the TOS. This thread has turned into a "how-to" about something electrical. What is there to prevent anyone from "hacking" something, doing it completely wrong, and causing a fire? I have no problem with doing things on the cheap, but when it comes to safety or energy sources, it must be done safely.


 

I will add this since my posting with the diagram did not have a disclaimer 

HAVE A LICENSED ELECTRICIAN DO THE WORK ALWAYS!

any electrical installation like this should be done by a licenced electrician even If a wall switch or something simple goes wrong here we have qualified and licensed electrician do the work. we have a few volunteers that are licenced and will do simple jobs but anything like this we would hire someone.

the relay control box method is very inexpensive and can be a used until a proper solution like Sensor + dimmers with smartlink stations that offer far more possibilities than just house light control. I am at a community theatre run exclusively by volunteers so I do understand that sometimes hiring a consultant and buying architectural lighting systems may not be in the budget.


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## dmoes

Grog12 said:


> What's a nutral?


 
Nutral is just me and my very bad spealleng


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## kiwitechgirl

cdub260 said:


> What you're describing here is actually a relatively simple setup. You're switching back and forth between two different power sources via a relay switch.


 
Actually no, we're not....the house lights are powered by the dimmers at all times, regardless of whether they're in work or show mode. In show mode, the wall switches have no effect and only the desk controls the house lights; in work mode, both the desk and the switches work (obviously if the switch is on and the desk has the lights at 40%, if you flip the switch off, the lights go to 40% - I guess you'd call it HTP!)


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## itie

Sorry to be off topic, but i was wondering while reading this post about the two pictures at the top. My question is, if you have the second picture's switch installed does that mean that the house lights would be wired into the dimmers?

thanks Giovanni


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## Edrick

Correct, wether it's a full dimming system or architectural lighting controller.


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## headcrab

Unless you have alternate transformers or generators, why would you have to switch the neutrals? Assuming a single transformer, all neutrals end up at the same point.
Also, if you put two phases on the same relay pole, bad stuff happens if it's not rated for the voltage.


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## itie

Edrick said:


> Correct, wether it's a full dimming system or architectural lighting controller.


 
ok well with that being said would there ever be a reason for a place to have that type of house light switch and not wire them to the dimmers? I going to help a local theatre company with some of there shows in a few months, and from what they are telling me is that the only way to turn on and off the house lights is with one of those panels. This will be my first time working in this space and nobody there now is a tech person, so I was thinking that they aren't doing something right. Just from walking around the place I can see the panel on the wall matches the light board. i want to say they were both leigh brands.

thank you
Giovanni


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## coldnorth57

In the theatre that I work in the house lights are run off of the CD80 SV. I have run out of the CD80 SV low voltage wires to a set of switches, one on stage left, one on stage right and one up in the booth. The house lights can be truned on and off from all 3 stations but the booth has full control and can shut out the stage switches. And with the booth swicth turned off, the lighting board through DMX run the house lights during a show.


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## Edrick

I'm not sure as to the specifics, this would be an example of one of the Leviton Architectural Units a-2000® Cabinets > Dimming Panels > Dimmers (commercial) > Commercial Lighting > All Leviton Products from Leviton Electrical and Electronic Products

Could be because the lighting panel is connected to an emergency backup, or they didn't want to use the dimmers on the stage system. Perhapse someone here who works for ETC as I believe that's an ETC panel might have some ideas.


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## starksk

Edrick said:


> ...Could be because the lighting panel is connected to an emergency backup, or they didn't want to use the dimmers on the stage system. Perhapse someone here who works for ETC as I believe that's an ETC panel might have some ideas.


 
The second picture in my original post is a Unison Paradigm 10-Button station. While that is our current major architectural control system, the same basic design has been used in several of our products (Legacy Unison, SmartLink, DAS, etc...) as well as the concept being used in many of our competitors' products.

It is possible to have a Paradigm system controlling non-dimming loads through the use of DMX and/or sACN controllable devices. Those devices may be the fixtures themselves (e.g., LED houselights) or relay panels that switch on/off the loads based on the signal they receive.


itie said:


> i want to say they were both leigh brands.



Possibly Lehigh?


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## starksk

[Off Topic]

itie said:


> i want to say they were both leigh brands.



Interesting result when searching for leigh lighting: Leigh light

[/Off Topic]


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## Les

starksk said:


> [Off Topic]
> 
> 
> Interesting result when searching for leigh lighting: Leigh light
> 
> [/Off Topic]



That's insanely huge. I want one!

Oh course, I'm under the assumption that the OP meant Lehigh Lighting.


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## itie

Sorry I did mean Lehigh, and I think I over complicated the question. I was wondering if there would be any reason for the company who did the install to put in a Lehigh wall panel to control the house lights and not wire them with the dimmer rack? The stage lights are controlled by a Lehigh board, but I have been told the only way to control the house lights is from the panel. I haven't seen the dimmers yet but I'm going to ask this weekend. 

Thanks 
Giovanni


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