# LED Conversion Upcoming



## sdauditorium (Dec 14, 2017)

In other various threads about LED fixtures, I had briefly alluded to a potential upcoming LED lighting conversion project in our district/community 600-seat PAC as part of a larger, $4.3 million district energy efficiency upgrade package. The resolutions for the referendum and financing for this project were officially approved this morning, and I believe the auditorium lighting portion of this package is approximately $521,000.

While this will of course be going out to bid, etc., there are a few essentials I know at this point. Included in the plans will be a new data distribution network with DMX drops at all lighting positions including a few portable nodes along with dimmer rack replacement for both stage and architectural lighting. Also, included, of course, are a multitude of LED fixtures - anywhere from 150-200 depending on exactly what is spec'ed. 

In case anyone asks, it's a proscenium space with your standard assortment of school functions and concerts - assemblies, musicals, etc. - along with community-contracted shows that run the gammet of concerts/bands/musicians to plays and illusionists and more. Definitely an exciting time for sure, and while I've been doing fixture research, I'm just wondering if there are any other things to look out for or consider as we go through the design/spec/bid process?


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## MNicolai (Dec 14, 2017)

You'll want to make sure your current (or new) console is up to the task of handling all of the new fixtures with an appropriate workflow for how you use the space.

Give some thought to how much work you want the installing contractor to perform in setting up the system. It's not uncommon, especially in that region, for a package of fixtures to get dropped into a room and unpackaged with no/minimal configuration. Maybe they'll get hung and assigned DMX/universe addresses, but not in a way that's useful to you. However much work you want the contractor to do in coordinating, documenting, and installing the initial light plot -- make sure those requirements make into the specifications.

In a similar vein, if you are having any control touch panels or preset stations installed, make sure you have a plan for what those need to be able to control. You do not want to end up with a touchpanel that has a bunch of faders on it and a color wheel. I've seen it happen a lot on new installs in that area and it makes the touchpanels effectively useless. You probably want to make certain you have some level of idiot-proof control available for basic presets so not everyone has to know how to use the console in order to do a basic presentation on stage.

Evaluate the full list of accessories. Make certain you have all of the barn doors, top hats, power cables, DMX cables, lenses, and so forth that you'll need with some to spare. If you think it's appropriate for how you use your space, also explore the option of going with Lex's new hybrid power/DMX cables. Makes stringing fixtures together much cleaner.

Consider how you will want to address your fixtures/dimmers and spread them across universes. It is probably smoothest to put the cyc fixtures and dimmers on their own universe because they'll never change. If you can, try your best to fit all of your general purpose fixtures on the same universe. This way whenever you rehang a plot you do not need to go through each individual fixture and assign new DMX addresses. If you come up with the semi-permanent system you want, sleep on it for awhile and think about it again. Then if you want the installing contractor to provide labels with DMX addresses and universes and fixture numbers on your fixtures, that's one less thing you have to worry about yourself when a pile of fixtures gets dumped on your stage.

How you choose to assign DMX universes around your venue will have implications for how many DMX cables you need, as well as where your nodes end up having to be. This could mean you'll need a handful of longer DMX cables available, or that you'll need more medium length cables you can string together for getting where you need to go from your nodes/jacks.

Make certain any training requirements you want for console training, dimmer/fixture maintenance, are written into the specification. ETC requires dealers provide X amount of training with a console sale. In that region I've seen this ignored time and time again.

Typically you want 2-3 sections of training. Entry-level user training for teachers/principal/etc on how to turn on basic looks. Mid-level training for students/regular users, and Advanced Technical training for yourself and anyone else who will be responsible for maintaining the systems. The advanced training is longer, in-depth, and covers all elements of the systems. It addresses all of the things students and faculty are going to come to you with questions about.


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## sdauditorium (Dec 15, 2017)

Thanks for the insight, and yes, a number of same things were concerns of mine as well. I know that we'll be ending up with anywhere between 150-200 fixtures, but I want to ensure we're not stuck with a large number of extra fixtures we don't need. For example, I want to ensure they include a package of moving heads (8-12 spot fixtures as well as 9-12 wash fixtures due to the fact we're dead hung, and I want some flexibility of focusing from the board when risers or other set pieces are on stage.

That being said, we'll be getting an output upgrade on our Ion to handle the additional output channels needed, so that should be good from the control side. I don't believe we're looking at touch panels but instead 5-button preset looks for the uneducated who enter.


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## MNicolai (Dec 15, 2017)

I would make sure you have a preset station included you can record the 5-button presets from, probably parked in the booth. You're going to want to make changes and you're not going to want to call in a service tech every time to do it.

Also should factor in touch screens for your Ion if you don't already have them. It'll give you a lot more flexibility in using magic sheets, which you'll definitely want to use. The days of simply throwing faders to busk a show are gone.

Not sure what your procurement policies are for the project, but I would dig into how this purchase is going to be structured. Dimming & controls will probably be under the electrical contract, which makes sense since the theatrical contractor will provide the equipment and the electricians are responsible for mounting it and wiring it and getting it inspected. Installation of this equipment falls under their electrical permit.

Fixtures and accessories are more appropriately a prime contract via RFP. Then you're only paying the markup from the installing contractor. If it's part of the electrical contract, now you're talking about paying markup from the theatrical contractor, markup from the electrician, and if you have a general contractor on the project, their markup as well. Things become a good deal more expensive, and unlike with dimming and controls, the electricians play zero role in project management or installation of the fixtures package.


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## sdauditorium (Dec 15, 2017)

MNicolai said:


> I would make sure you have a preset station included you can record the 5-button presets from, probably parked in the booth. You're going to want to make changes and you're not going to want to call in a service tech every time to do it.
> 
> Also should factor in touch screens for your Ion if you don't already have them. It'll give you a lot more flexibility in using magic sheets, which you'll definitely want to use. The days of simply throwing faders to busk a show are gone.
> 
> ...


Sorry, we do have two touch screens for our Ion. I assumed you were talking about house control/preset looks and didn't read closely enough.


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## sdauditorium (Dec 15, 2017)

I also should mention, we had a preliminary meeting back in Spring regarding the scope of this project, and McKinstry, who received the overall contract for this, had brought in a rep from one of the main theatrical lighting providers in Wisconsin, but I won't name names though it should be pretty easy to figure out. I haven't heard specific procurement procedures yet either but have been assured by our superintendent I'll be included on this.


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## MNicolai (Dec 15, 2017)

sdauditorium said:


> Sorry, we do have two touch screens for our Ion. I assumed you were talking about house control/preset looks and didn't read closely enough.



You were right. First I was talking about Paradigm touch panels. Last comment though was about Ion.


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## jtweigandt (Dec 15, 2017)

Congrats on the new LED's, but I always chuckle when they sell Theatrical lighting on the basis of "energy savings" For example at a little less than 10 cents per KWH your 575 Watt source four costs you about 5 cents per hour to run. The new Phoenix elipse 250 watt LED replacement costs you about 2 cents an hour to run and costs about 1300 bucks. 3 cents per hour savings.... 1300/.03/365/24=4.9 years... So you have to run the new Phoenix 24 hours a day for 5 years to break even on energy savings.... and you didn't do much for sea level rise either. You can argue lesser cooling costs for the building... but the point is... Theater lighting in a high school runs for a few hours at most over about 3 weeks for each show. Aint never gonna save dat. New construction... OK you don't need that 50000 watt feed into the auditorium any more etc.. But lets get real... You get LED because they are versatile.. and you don't have to get to wonky places to re lamp. General auditorium lighting without specialized fixtures that is on all the time... bingo you save a ton. Now don't anyone tell the grant writers I said this. But what do I know, I'm just a Veterinarian, and self edjumacated enjuneer. Oh and by the way, if they send you too many, I will store them off site for you, and periodically test for function.


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## sdauditorium (Dec 15, 2017)

jtweigandt said:


> Congrats on the new LED's, but I always chuckle when they sell Theatrical lighting on the basis of "energy savings" For example at a little less than 10 cents per KWH your 575 Watt source four costs you about 5 cents per hour to run. The new Phoenix elipse 250 watt LED replacement costs you about 2 cents an hour to run and costs about 1300 bucks. 3 cents per hour savings.... 1300/.03/365/24=4.9 years... So you have to run the new Phoenix 24 hours a day for 5 years to break even on energy savings.... and you didn't do much for sea level rise either. You can argue lesser cooling costs for the building... but the point is... Theater lighting in a high school runs for a few hours at most over about 3 weeks for each show. Aint never gonna save dat. New construction... OK you don't need that 50000 watt feed into the auditorium any more etc.. But lets get real... You get LED because they are versatile.. and you don't have to get to wonky places to re lamp. General auditorium lighting without specialized fixtures that is on all the time... bingo you save a ton. Now don't anyone tell the grant writers I said this. But what do I know, I'm just a Veterinarian, and self edjumacated enjuneer. Oh and by the way, if they send you too many, I will store them off site for you, and periodically test for function.


I'm not arguing that at all and am well aware; however, that was not the emphasis of the discussion. On the same hand, it's not my place to talk them out of something, and as you astutely mention, I see the numerous benefits for us in terms of everything else you mentioned and am ecstatic of course. I'm self-educated in this world as well and am, like the rest on here, a self-professed tech geek regardless. Ultimately, my goal now is to do whatever I can to try to steer any purchases so that the investment is as wise as it can be and can support current and future events to the best degree possible.


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## sdauditorium (Dec 19, 2017)

Here's my current fixture package that I'm spec'ing: 

24 - ETC Series 2 Lustr (19 deg)
20 - ETC Series 2 Lustr (26 deg)
20 - ETC ColorSource Spot (36 deg)
20 - ColorSource Spot (50 deg)
13 - Rogue R2 Wash
12 - Maverick MK1 Spot
15 - Desire D60 Vivid or Lustr (not sure yet)
16 - ColorSource Cyc (ground and top)
2 - Altman UV 705
18 - ColorSource Par
4 - Elation Protron 3K Strobe
DMX cables, lens tubs, lenses as needed
Nomad and Output Upgrade for our Ion
I'm feeling pretty good about things, and hopefully our procurement procedures will allow this to happen.


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## epimetheus (Dec 19, 2017)

I'm curious about the reasoning behind the mix of the Series 2 and Colorsource spots, and the D60 and Colorsource pars. Are there particular uses and/or hang locations where only one or the other will work?


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## sdauditorium (Dec 19, 2017)

epimetheus said:


> I'm curious about the reasoning behind the mix of the Series 2 and Colorsource spots, and the D60 and Colorsource pars. Are there particular uses and/or hang locations where only one or the other will work?


Good question. Series 2 for longer throw and FOH applications primarily. ColorSource Spots and Pars will be used primarily on stage along with gobo breakups, high sides, dance booms. D60s primarily for top light on the electrics, R2 Washes and the MK1s spread throughout a few different positions for focusable (is that a word) specials. I want the versatility as we often have multiple events within a short time frame, and since we're dead hung, always have issues re-gelling/focusing between.

Ideally, I'd go with all Series 2 if the budget was unlimited, and I'm not sure how sold I am on ColorSources and both their output at farther distances and pastels/whites.


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## mikefellh (Dec 20, 2017)

We're also in the process of converting our house lights to LED, at least the dimmable incandescent PAR38s we have on tracks...we're leaving the fluorescent tubes alone for now until they need changing in another five years. 

For a replacement dimmer since we no longer need the 20amp rotary dimmer that can only be controlled in the booth, we're going with a high-end consumer dimmer that comes with a couple of battery operated remotes...it's only a 180 seat auditorium we don't need a fancy system, it's something like this one:


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## MNicolai (Dec 20, 2017)

@mikefellh, Presumably you have some form of dedicated emergency house lighting then tied into your fire alarm panel?


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## Michael K (Dec 20, 2017)

sdauditorium said:


> Here's my current fixture package that I'm spec'ing:
> 
> 24 - ETC Series 2 Lustr (19 deg)
> 20 - ETC Series 2 Lustr (26 deg)
> ...


I've been delving a lot into these things, my excuse is that my college is getting a renovation in a couple of years, but mostly because I find it interesting to look at all the new shiny things. So IMHO...

I would go with Ovation E-290FC over the ColorSource Spots, for the increased output and amber emitters (plus they're a bit less.)
If you don't need the extra zoom of the Mk 1 spots, I would go for the Most 2s spots, to get the all rotating gobos and variable cmy filter, plus the extra output won't hurt. I Would also go for the Mk 2 profiles for FOH specials where the shutters, and higher CRI would make a difference.

Any way, lots of demos to come, have fun. Good lu... er break a (scenic) leg


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## Gobokat (Dec 20, 2017)

Following up from Michael K's post - be sure to get demos, in the space not in a showroom and hang them where you will expect to hang them in the full installation - for a package this large that shouldn't be a problem. 

I also would be wary of mixing Colorsource and Series2, not just because I think the Colorsource will give your specific applications more mileage, but because they're color engines and will produce colors differently even with the best color presets. Again - hang them and verify all assumptions before signing the purchase contract. (and I don't want to make this a fixture war, but different emitters in different pancakes with different drivers will just produce color differently.)

Also don't be afraid to look outside ETC. Chauvet's Ovation line has some great solid state fixtures and the full color spot goes toe to toe with the Colorsource line from ETC. (never tested it against a Series 2)

Last gear point - looking at your equipment list I don't see you mentioning gateways, nodes and switches. Past 1024 outputs you'll need to be running your rig from NET3 devices to get universe 3+ out of your system - and I don't think any of us recommend Wi-Fi for connecting Net3 devices.

On the power side of the situation, is there any provision for putting in relay modules or some other power management into the electrical runs for these fixtures? You can turn the output off from the ION, but you can't make these got to "sleep" and they'll happily keep running fans and PCB's around the clock. (cutting even deeper into any potential power dollar savings.)

Finally - have you thought through any additional training or setups you'll need to have for your casual user? With these LEDs you're going away from just being able to walk into the space, turn on a board and click "1 through infinity at full" and have a lit stage for the afternoon/evening presentation. Would adding in a small system of white-only emitter fixtures help with those situations?

Yes, LED's open up potentials and I think all lighting is heading there faster than I ever thought, but I would be aware of what I'm going to be asking all users of the facility to be competent to do.

Good luck and have fun, we're all a little envious of a project like this.


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## Rusty00101 (Dec 20, 2017)

A couple of electrical points to consider..

The drivers on LED luminaires typically stay on unless you cut power to the luminaire. So you want to power up the luminaires at the start of a call and shut them off at the end of the day.

A great way to extend the life of your drivers is to use a DMX-controlled motorized-breaker panel to feed the LEDs.

Each breaker in the panel uses one DMX channel (stick them all in the same universe). These panels can be stand-alone products connected to a disconnect switch, or hard-wired like a regular breaker panel.

Some products can be loud so you’ll want to consider where the panel lives.

One caveat, inrush current - when powering up many LEDs simultaneously it can be huge (think of melting transformers). A way around this is to set up the motorized breaker panel with a small delay between each breaker at power-up - I believe single-digit millisecond delays are typical.

Higher-end LED luminaire manufacturers will provide a spec value for inrush current.


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## mikefellh (Dec 21, 2017)

MNicolai said:


> @mikefellh, Presumably you have some form of dedicated emergency house lighting then tied into your fire alarm panel?



Don't know how I led you down that track, but yes we have dedicated self-contained emergency light units that have their own batteries (tested and replaced regularly) everywhere including bathrooms like the unit shown below, and a few years ago we updated our emergency exit lights from incandescent to battery backed up LED units so they stay lit during a blackout.


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## sdauditorium (Dec 21, 2017)

Gobokat said:


> Following up from Michael K's post - be sure to get demos, in the space not in a showroom and hang them where you will expect to hang them in the full installation - for a package this large that shouldn't be a problem.
> 
> I also would be wary of mixing Colorsource and Series2, not just because I think the Colorsource will give your specific applications more mileage, but because they're color engines and will produce colors differently even with the best color presets. Again - hang them and verify all assumptions before signing the purchase contract. (and I don't want to make this a fixture war, but different emitters in different pancakes with different drivers will just produce color differently.)
> 
> ...


I wanted to keep my OP brief and had intentionally omitted all of the dimming changes. We are indeed swapping out our Strand CD80 rack and Strand house light control racks with a Sensor IQ 48 Relay rack and Unison DRd6 rack including a number of dual relay modules, preset stations around the house for less experienced folk and 13 networked DMX nodes including two Pathway Via5 switches throughout our lighting positions - including a few extra for portable, on-stage use. 

We had considered just doing the Johnson Controls retrofit to our Strand rack, but at 30 years (I know they're workhorses), figured we should make the switch while we had the funding instead of potentially throwing money into something that *may* go bad sooner rather than later.


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## sdauditorium (Dec 21, 2017)

Michael K said:


> I've been delving a lot into these things, my excuse is that my college is getting a renovation in a couple of years, but mostly because I find it interesting to look at all the new shiny things. So IMHO...
> 
> I would go with Ovation E-290FC over the ColorSource Spots, for the increased output and amber emitters (plus they're a bit less.)
> If you don't need the extra zoom of the Mk 1 spots, I would go for the Most 2s spots, to get the all rotating gobos and variable cmy filter, plus the extra output won't hurt. I Would also go for the Mk 2 profiles for FOH specials where the shutters, and higher CRI would make a difference.
> ...


Did you mean the Ovation E-910FC by chance? And instead of 2s spots, did you mean MK2? Just making sure


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## Michael K (Dec 21, 2017)

sdauditorium said:


> Did you mean the Ovation E-910FC by chance? And instead of 2s spots, did you mean MK2? Just making sure


Yes , shoulda copy-pasted, got a spreadsheet with specks/features I've been putting together, and must have conflated it with the 260WW some how, that and the ever present auto correct, unless there's a mini color mixing spot my fingers somehow know about


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## Ron Foley (Dec 21, 2017)

why would you tear out the dimmer racks
you can get New Non Dim modules, retrofit processors from either Strand or Johnson Controls
the base rack (as you indicated) is a work horse.

the C 21 retrofit from Strand is exactly what is being supplied with the new C 21 dimmer racks.


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## sdauditorium (Dec 22, 2017)

Ron Foley said:


> why would you tear out the dimmer racks
> you can get New Non Dim modules, retrofit processors from either Strand or Johnson Controls
> the base rack (as you indicated) is a work horse.
> 
> the C 21 retrofit from Strand is exactly what is being supplied with the new C 21 dimmer racks.


That's where I'm a bit torn. The theatrical consultant who came in and met with us brought up both options. Obviously, either the retrofit or new racks will give the same desired effects. Their caution was that at almost 30 years old (I know they're workhorses) that we should make the switch to new racks while we had the funding instead of potentially throwing money into something the retrofit and then having something more detrimental happen to the old racks down the road necessitating more funding needed to then replace the racks anew anyway.


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## RonHebbard (Dec 22, 2017)

sdauditorium said:


> That's where I'm a bit torn. The theatrical consultant who came in and met with us brought up both options. Obviously, either the retrofit or new racks will give the same desired effects. Their caution was that at almost 30 years old (I know they're workhorses) that we should make the switch to new racks while we had the funding instead of potentially throwing money into something the retrofit and then having something more detrimental happen to the old racks down the road necessitating more funding needed to then replace the racks anew anyway.


 @sdauditorium @Ron Foley In my not so humble opinion, if you retrofit your existing Strand racks, essentially all you're keeping is the welded steel frame, durable copper wiring and REALLY robust durable interconnects. (Basically parts with a '1/2 life' measured in centuries) Time, technology and electronics will march on but the portions of the racks you'd be keeping would continue to provide solid reliable service until the powder-coated paint fails and the steel rusts through. 
Them's my thoughts.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.


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## MNicolai (Dec 22, 2017)

sdauditorium said:


> That's where I'm a bit torn. The theatrical consultant who came in and met with us brought up both options. Obviously, either the retrofit or new racks will give the same desired effects. Their caution was that at almost 30 years old (I know they're workhorses) that we should make the switch to new racks while we had the funding instead of potentially throwing money into something the retrofit and then having something more detrimental happen to the old racks down the road necessitating more funding needed to then replace the racks anew anyway.



FWIW, I think the dimmer racks are a temporary problem at worst. Lot of projects coming online that are now fully LED with power control from DMX-controlled relay panels with no dimmers on-site whatsoever. I've got a couple projects in the works right now where the only dimmers are 0-10V control for the LED drivers at house/lobby lighting.

Puts you in a bind if you have an existing inventory of incandescents you want to keep using and your rack craps out on you, but at some point you have to ask yourself how much longer you're really going to need those dimmers for.


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## Ron Foley (Dec 22, 2017)

would you replace all the electrical panels in your building, simply because you can get the funding?
most likely not.


As you move to LED you will still want to switch power, that is where hard contact Non Dims come to play
you can buy NEW Non dim modules for your racks.

and remember if you are replacing the CD 80 racks with the Sensor racks
there is a good size labour bill and you will need to extend the mains feeds it the power enters the rack from the bottom (as one would expect it would)
CD 80 racks are bottom fed
Sensor racks have there Mains stacked 
and a good portion of the load lines will also need to be exretnded.
neutrals will also need to be addresed.


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## sdauditorium (Dec 22, 2017)

All good points which reasserts my preference towards the retrofit instead of replacement. And, it wouldn't hurt to free up a bit more of that half million towards additional/better quality fixtured.


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## sdauditorium (Jan 6, 2018)

At this point, I'm leaning towards retrofitting our CD80 rack and Environ house/worklight controls with Johnson Controls retrofits, preset stations, and a load of the non-dim relay power modules for our LEDs. Also in this, I want to configure the controls so that we're able to control house/work lights directly from our board and upgrade control wiring to DMX. We still have original AMX wiring from booth to rack with separate house/work light control via the house control panels, so I'm planning to have that incorporated with these upgrades.


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## Ron Foley (Jan 6, 2018)

the control wire for the AMX 192 will most likley be Beledon 9156, this fine for DMX 512, no need to change the wire.
what are your control stations, Outlook or Microcontrol?


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## sdauditorium (Jan 6, 2018)

No clue, actually. They're bronze in finish and have a fader for incadesecent house light control, a square button for on/off for control, and four more square buttons to control aisle lights and three various banks of fluorescent fixtures in the house. There's no name or markings on them otherwise. A Google image search didn't give me any clues either.


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## Ron Foley (Jan 6, 2018)

these wouls be Micro control or Accent
(Accent) have a small processor on the back card
Micro Contol 

Micro Control photo attached


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## epimetheus (Jan 6, 2018)

Michael K said:


> I've been delving a lot into these things, my excuse is that my college is getting a renovation in a couple of years, but mostly because I find it interesting to look at all the new shiny things. So IMHO...
> 
> I would go with Ovation E-290FC over the ColorSource Spots, for the increased output and amber emitters (plus they're a bit less.)
> If you don't need the extra zoom of the Mk 1 spots, I would go for the Most 2s spots, to get the all rotating gobos and variable cmy filter, plus the extra output won't hurt. I Would also go for the Mk 2 profiles for FOH specials where the shutters, and higher CRI would make a difference.
> ...



We've had 4 Mk2 Spots for about a year and love them. We're using them as backlight eye candy, but the worked well for specials during our Christmas production as well. We just ordered 2 Mk2 Profiles to replace our pair of VL770's on one of our FOH catwalks. The morning before our last show of our Christmas production one of the 770 lamps decided to go a-bomb and take out the reflector and who knows what else. Turned out good because it convinced the powers above to sign off on the Mk2 Profile purchase.


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## bharrell (Jan 6, 2018)

We would be happy to talk about upgrading or replacing your Strand racks and distribution system as we offer high quality dimming/relay/distribution systems. Let me know if interested.


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## mikefellh (Jan 6, 2018)

In our case currently our fluorescent house lights use the old G.E. solenoids that are controlled with 24v switches,although next time it comes to changing bulbs we'll consider going with dimmable LED and replace the solenoids. What the solenoid and switches look like (we have type top style switches):


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## Ron Foley (Jan 9, 2018)

The other note I would like to make
if you go with the Strand C 21 retrofit kits and Vision net, you can use the existing control wire from the Micro Control
as noted DMX will run on the existing AMX 192 control cable
and Vision net will run on the existing Micro control wire

So you do not need to worry about any control wire.

attached is a photo with Vision Net running over 300 plus feet of microphone wire for the data pair


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## sdauditorium (Jan 19, 2018)

Just an update: we have a meeting scheduled for next Wednesday with McKinstry to go over the auditorium portion of the project. At this point, here is my adjusted, proposed fixture package that I'm looking at pending fixture demos:

60 - Altman PHX 250W LED Profile, RGBW
30 - Altman PHX 250W LED Profile, RGBA
1 - Chauvet Pro Rogue R2 Wash
15 - Chauvet Maverick MK2 Wash
8 - Chauvet Maverick MK2 Spot
4 - Chauvet Maverick MK2 Profile
16 - ETC ColorSource Cyc
3 - Altman UV 705
18 - ETC Desire D60 Vivid
20 - Chroma-Q Color Force II RGBA 12"
4 - Elation Protron 3K Strobe
2 - Robert Juliat Roxie Cool White LED Followspot
1 - ETC Nomad 6144 output dongle
Ion 6K Output Upgrade
Data distribution, rack upgrades, etc., will all be covered separately.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Jan 19, 2018)

Go for the Oz over the Roxey, imho.


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## JohnD (Jan 19, 2018)

From the limited info available, the OZ (and the wide throw Alice) look very good, output equal to a 1200 watt followspot. ACT lighting doesn't have them listed in the price list yet. 
As far as the listed demos, I wonder how the Altman PHX will do. I also wonder about the former issues with Altman and firmware updates. I wonder if they can be easily done on site or do the units have to be shipped back to Altman.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Jan 19, 2018)

I've been assured the price of the 600 watt LED will be comparable or a little under the 1200 hmi. And quieter. And a few months to shipping. Well see. Luckily I'm specifying for deliveries in fall of 2019.


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## Michael K (Jan 19, 2018)

sdauditorium said:


> 60 - Altman PHX 250W LED Profile, RGBW
> 30 - Altman PHX 250W LED Profile, RGBA


A word of warning, last I heard (which was a while ago), the Altman Phx has terrible color fringing, so be sure to look out for that and try a few different angles and a selection of gobos. (perhaps related to what @JohnD mentioned?) Also, at least on paper, they put out ~1/3 as much as a 575w S4 in open white, and ~2/3 as much light as the variable white Ovation do, and will have noticeably poorer white and color rendering.

I'm really pushing the Ovation line, @Ford where do I submit my resume?


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## MNicolai (Jan 19, 2018)

That new Ovation variable white is a good choice. I was pretty impressed with it. It's a much more natural white than the E-910FC, but still hits a lot of the individual colors you would want -- just not as brightly as the E910-FC will.

To-date, the only issues I've noticed with the E910-FC and E930-VW is that if you're going to use gobos, you want to focus either with a single emitter color on or a mix, whichever is representative of how the fixture will be used.

If you focus sharp with a single-emitter color on, it'll go fuzzy when you add other colors. Vise versa if you focus sharp with multiple emitter colors on and go to a single emitter color.


E930-VW on the left. E910-FC on the right.





Focused white multiple emitters on, then reduced down to a single emitter type. Mind you, these were taken on my phone but nonetheless I would consider them representative of what I saw in person.


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## sdauditorium (Jan 20, 2018)

Thanks all. I should have edited my post to say that I'm debating between Altman and the Chauvet's (E-910FC). I've read some of the concerns about Altmans and conversely good things about the 910s, so that was my prime candidate for a shootout. We can get either one for roughly the same price (PHX RGBW v. E-910FC). As much as I'd like to go with the Series 2 Lustr, we'd only be able to get roughly 60 fixtures, including EDLTs, compared to 90 of either the Chauvets or Altmans.


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## sdauditorium (Jan 20, 2018)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> Go for the Oz over the Roxey, imho.



Thanks; didn't even realize that was out until I checked their website. I did ask for a rough budgetary price from one vendor, so we'll see how much more that would be compared to the Roxie and if it ship dates would work within our timeline.


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## jtweigandt (Jan 20, 2018)

Michael K said:


> A word of warning, last I heard (which was a while ago), the Altman Phx has terrible color fringing, so be sure to look out for that and try a few different angles and a selection



We have 6 of the Altman phoenix 250's RGBA Did a side by side evaluation before purchase against our conventional ETC source4 with 575 bulb. We set up off white flats center stage, and shuttered the instruments for a left right comparison. Put a medium to light amber in the source 4, and color matched on the phoenix. The phoenix at about 1/3 matched the source 4 at full. Deeper colors.. no contest. Conventional couldn't touch them. the saturation and brightness of the phoenix was a heck of a lot of fun. I used one for the moon in cats, and we have used them with counter rotating gobos for water.. on a black curtain! The drowning prince was being flown/swam out by the little Mermaid. The effect was breathtaking with an intense tight top light on the pair. Cant say that color fringing was an issue for me. 5 of them completely changed our grand curtain color from blue to Red for the Annie preshow wash.

We have a lot of source 4's around, and I really like the fact that the lens tubes are interchangeble with the source4.


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## sdauditorium (Jan 22, 2018)

MNicolai said:


> That new Ovation variable white is a good choice. I was pretty impressed with it. It's a much more natural white than the E-910FC, but still hits a lot of the individual colors you would want -- just not as brightly as the E910-FC will.
> 
> To-date, the only issues I've noticed with the E910-FC and E930-VW is that if you're going to use gobos, you want to focus either with a single emitter color on or a mix, whichever is representative of how the fixture will be used.
> 
> ...


Thanks for that comparison. I'm loving the new VW fixture as my main concern if we went Chauvet and the 910FC was a lack of a strong white, but this seems to satisfy that issue.


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## sdauditorium (Jan 26, 2018)

Just an update: I had a phone meeting with McKinstry's project manager and construction manager this past Wednesday, and they were agreeable to letting me spec the fixture package and putting that to bid following some fixture demos that we'll be bringing in soon. For better or worse, it sounds like they do want to stick with the dimmer rack upgrades instead of retrofits - which will include a Sensor IQ 48 rack for stage lighting and Unison rack with Echo Controller for architectural fixtures (along with relays, etc.). 

For fixtures, it looks like we'll have a relatively healthy budget at around $285K, so I've been preparing a few different package options dependent upon demos.


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## sdauditorium (Jan 27, 2018)

Here are the three packages I'm looking at, all the same rough price (also included in all are PowerCON thru cables, DMX cable and terminators, ETC Nomad with 6K outputs and an upgrade for our Ion). I have not listed work lights, house lights, etc. My biggest debate is if I go with a few less, more expensive Series 2 Lustrs. Thoughts? Demos will decide all and are coming up, but just curious to hear what others think.

* #1 - 168 total fixtures*
Chauvet Professional Ovation E-930VW (and lens tubes) - 85 
Chauvet Professional Rogue R2 Wash - 14
Chauvet Professional Maverick MK2 Spot - 6
Chauvet Professional Maverick MK2 Profile - 4
ETC Colorsource Cyc - 16
Altman UV 705 - 2
Chroma-Q Color Force II 12" RGBA - 20
ETC Desire D60 Vivid (w/ lenses) - 18
Elation Protron 3K Strobe - 3
Robert Juliat Roxie Cool White LED Followspot w/ tripod stand - 2

*#2 - 169 total fixtures*
Altman PHX 250W LED Profile, RGBW - 55 (FOH throws)
Altman PHX 250W LED Profile, RGBA - 30 (on-stage/booms)
Chauvet Rogue R2 Wash - 14 
Chauvet Maverick MK2 Spot - 7 
Chauvet Maverick MK2 Profile - 4 
ETC Colorsource Cyc - 16 
Altman UV 705 - 2 
Chroma-Q Color Force II 12" RGBA - 20 
ETC Desire D60 Vivid - 18 
Elation Protron 3K Strobe - 3 

*#3 - 136 total fixtures*
ETC Source Four LED Series 2 Lustr w/ Shutter Barrel (and EDLTs) - 80
Chauvet Rogue R2 Wash - 9
Chauvet Maverick MK2 Spot - 6
Chauvet Maverick MK2 Profile - 2
ETC Desire D60 Vivid - 18
ETC ColorSource Cyc - 16
Altman UV 705 - 2
Elation Protron 3K Color LED Strobe - 3
Robert Juliat Roxie Cool White LED Followspot w/ tripod stand - 2


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## epimetheus (Jan 29, 2018)

Was it intentional to leave the follow spots out of package #2 and the Color Force out of package #3?


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## sdauditorium (Jan 29, 2018)

epimetheus said:


> Was it intentional to leave the follow spots out of package #2 and the Color Force out of package #3?


Yes and no. The follow spots are also included within package #2; however, to hit our fixture budget with the higher cost of the Series 2, I had to cut out the Color Forces. However, as I've been re-working things over the weekend, I've narrowed it down to two packages:
*
Package 1:*
ETC Source Four LED Series 2 - Lustr w/ Shutter Barrel - 70 (and about 75 assorted EDLTs)
Chauvet Rogue R2 Wash - 13
Chauvet Maverick MK2 Spot - 7
Chauvet Maverick MK2 Profile - 2
ETC Desire D60 Vivid - 18 (and 45 deg. lenses)
ETC ColorSource Cyc - 16
Altman UV 705 - 2
Chroma-Q Color Force II 12" RGBA - 13
Robert Juliat Roxie Cool White LED Followspot w/ tripod stand - 2
SSRC 150w Cool Worklight - 20
ETC Nomad w/ 6144 outputs - 1
ETC Ion Output Upgrade - 1
*and a ton of DMX, terminators, PowerCON thru cable, etc.

*Package 2:*
Altman PHX 250W LED Profile, RGBW - 55
Altman PHX 250W LED Profile, RGBA - 30
Chauvet Rogue R2 Wash - 14
Chauvet Maverick MK2 Spot - 7
Chauvet Maverick MK2 Profile - 4
ETC Colorsource Cyc - 16
Altman UV 705 - 2
Chroma-Q Color Force II 12" RGBA - 22
ETC Desire D60 Vivid - 18
Robert Juliat Roxie Cool White LED Followspot w/ tripod stand - 2
ETC Ion Output Upgrade - 1
ETC Nomad w/ 6144 outputs - 1
SSRC 150w Cool Worklight - 20
*and a ton of DMX, terminators, PowerCON thru cable, etc.


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## sdauditorium (Jan 29, 2018)

MNicolai said:


> That new Ovation variable white is a good choice. I was pretty impressed with it. It's a much more natural white than the E-910FC, but still hits a lot of the individual colors you would want -- just not as brightly as the E910-FC will.
> 
> To-date, the only issues I've noticed with the E910-FC and E930-VW is that if you're going to use gobos, you want to focus either with a single emitter color on or a mix, whichever is representative of how the fixture will be used.
> 
> ...


With the two gobo pictures, which fixture were you using? I'm curious as to how well the 930VW hits colors other than white and wasn't totally explicit by your post. Thanks!


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## MNicolai (Jan 29, 2018)

sdauditorium said:


> With the two gobo pictures, which fixture were you using? I'm curious as to how well the 930VW hits colors other than white and wasn't totally explicit by your post. Thanks!



I don't recall which was shown in that photo.

The 930VW still hits individual colors pretty well. The emitter configuration is just rebalanced for a better output at white, which means a little less punch in the saturated colors. My gut instinct is that if you're not mixing and matching 910FC's and 930VW's, you'll never notice the lower intensity in saturated colors on the 930VW's.

My perspective is that the 910FC is better for applications that are solely color mixing. Event/nightclub lighting, themed attractions, certain architectural applications, etc. Whereas the 930VW is better for most overall theater/film use involving a combination of color mixing and white output.

@Ford should be able to set you up with a demo or tie you in with a local rep/dealer if you want a side-by-side between the two fixtures.


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## JChenault (Jan 29, 2018)

If I were lighting faces, I would not go with an RGBA or RGBW. So for my 2 cents I would go with #2. 

If budget is a consideration I would pick something for faces that has a lime green emitter. Either the ETC colorsourse or the Chaucer ovation


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## Ford (Jan 29, 2018)

Chaucer...? That's a new one, John. LOL.


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## JohnD (Jan 29, 2018)

Ford said:


> Chaucer...?


Hey kids!!, it's Chaucer quote time:
*“And gladly wolde he lerne, and gladly teche.”*

*“Life is short. Art long. Opportunity is fleeting. Expierience treacherous. Judgement difficult.” 

“Ful wys is he that kan himselve knowe.” *


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## Ford (Jan 29, 2018)

Yeah... but did he like limes with his gin?


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## JChenault (Jan 29, 2018)

Ford said:


> Chaucer...? That's a new one, John. LOL.



That's what I get for typing on my iPhone without my glasses.


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## sdauditorium (Jan 30, 2018)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> I've been assured the price of the 600 watt LED will be comparable or a little under the 1200 hmi. And quieter. And a few months to shipping. Well see. Luckily I'm specifying for deliveries in fall of 2019.



I'm thinking that the Oz, even though no photometrics have been published yet (at least from what I can find), might be overkill for our situation. It's about or just under 100 feet from our spot bays to stage, and we currently have the Midget HP 1209. I got preliminary pricing of $10K for the Oz along with another $800 for the stand.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Jan 30, 2018)

sdauditorium said:


> I'm thinking that the Oz, even though no photometrics have been published yet (at least from what I can find), might be overkill for our situation. It's about or just under 100 feet from our spot bays to stage, and we currently have the Midget HP 1209. I got preliminary pricing of $10K for the Oz along with another $800 for the stand.


Compare foot-candles. The Oz should be roughly double the Roxie. I like a spot that cuts through a 50 fc wash, so looking for 150-200 fc in white.


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## sdauditorium (Jan 30, 2018)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> Compare foot-candles. The Oz should be roughly double the Roxie. I like a spot that cuts through a 50 fc wash, so looking for 150-200 fc in white.


I was able to move some fixture quantities around and, whether we go with the Ovation 930VWs or Altman PHXs for our ellipsoidals, have included the Oz in the quote. Edited to mention that the Oz didn't have any datasheet or photometric documentation yet from what I could tell so wasn't able to compare.


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## sdauditorium (Feb 16, 2018)

I was able to see nearly all of the fixtures that I had from a relatively local rental company and, along with feedback, research, etc., and many revisions, here's the final list that I submitted to go into the official RFP next week w/ a fixture package allocation of $285,000:

64 - Source Four Series 2 Lustr (variety of EDLTs include the LED-specific 50° tubes)
15 - ETC Desire D40 Vivid (w/ medium round diffuser)
16 - ETC Colorsource Cyc
12 - ETC Colorsource Par Deep Blue
4 - Chroma-Q ColorForce II 48" w/ border lenses
7 - Chauvet Professional Rogue R2 Wash
10 - Chauvet Professionl Rogue R3 Wash
10 - Chauvet Professional Maverick MK2 Spot
4 - Chauvet Professional Maverick MK2 Profile
2 - Robert Juliat Oz Cool White Follow Spot
20 - SSRC stage work lights
Also included but not listed include a bunch of DMX, PowerCON, TrueONE cable, etc.


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## sdauditorium (Mar 3, 2018)

We finally locked in the fixture bid and project specs with the project going out to RFP on Thursday. The deadline for those proposals is March 15 with the electrical/dimming/control systems upgrades going May 29-June 22. Exciting times for sure!


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## JohnD (Mar 3, 2018)

That reminded me, RJ now has the preliminary spec sheet available online. Still not listed at the ACTlighting price list.


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## sdauditorium (Mar 3, 2018)

JohnD said:


> That reminded me, RJ now has the preliminary spec sheet available online. Still not listed at the ACTlighting price list.


We ended up getting preliminary pricing through a vendor for the Oz w/ a stand and shipping, and I just noticed the spec sheet online as well this morning and downloaded it. Surprised at how much more it is listed at compared to the Roxie, but it should be plenty powerful for a 90' throw compared to our current Midget HP 1209s.


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## sdauditorium (May 5, 2018)

Hey all, just an update on our final equipment and accessory listing. Final POs have gone out to all vendors; here's a listing of everything for those that are interested.

*Fixtures and Accessories:*

80 ETC Source Four Series 2 Lustr
21 ETC Source Four Desire D60 Vivid
14 ETC Source Four ColorSource Cyc
12 Chauvet Pro Rogue R2 Wash
12 Chauvet Pro Maverick MK2 Spot
2 Robert Juliat Oz CW Spot w/ tripod
20 SSRC LED 150w CW worklights
40-50 additional lens tubes (handful of EDLTs too), soft wash diffusers - already have approximately 40-50 lens tubes
21 D60 Medium and Wide Round diffusers, barn doors
150 DMX cable - varying lengths, terminators
100 PowerCON, 25 TrueONE cables - varying lengths, PC to T1 turnarounds
ETC Nomad, Gadget, one touring two-port gateway and two touring one-port nodes
Dimming/Control

Ion 6K ugrade
Sensor IQ 48 rack for stage lighting and DRd6 rack w/ Paradigm for house lights (includes all breakers and relays)
Full data distribution - DMX outs on 3 electrics (2 outs each), DS and US proscenium wall left and right, each box boom both left and right, house bar, catwalk and booths; ETC Net inputs on stage and in booth
Two touchscreen preset stations along with a handful of 5-button preset stations throughout the space.
Things are scheduled to get underway after the final event in there on Sunday, May 27 - high school commencement. Can't wait for the fun to begin.


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## JohnD (May 26, 2018)

For those playing along at home, Actlighting has updated the USA Robert Juliat (just curious, since it's a French company do you have to pronounce it Ro-Bare?) price list to include the OZ and the wide throw Alice.


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## BillConnerFASTC (May 26, 2018)

Good since I have them specified on quite a few projects, some of which have already bid.


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## sdauditorium (May 26, 2018)

Last I heard on the Oz (a week ago from our vendor) is that they're expecting to ship out the Oz sometime in August at this point. We're slated for a facility shutdown starting Tuesday as our electrical sub and stage lighting subs start their work coming up.


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## Jay Ashworth (May 27, 2018)

Curious: the Rogue R2 comes in a profile too; why the Maverick, and what's different? 

Or am I incorrect?


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## JohnD (May 27, 2018)

There are several differences between the Rogue R2 spot and the Maverick MK2, the main one being that the Maverick zooms.


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## Ford (May 27, 2018)

The Rogue R2x Spot has a 300w LED engine, with 1 rotating and one fixed Gobo wheel, 2 color wheels, iris, prism, and frost, at a fixed 16.5 deg beam angle. It’s great for live music, small to mid sized tours, and as a general workhorse for a/v rental.

The Maverick MK2 Spot has a 440w LED, a 12-36 deg. zoom, CMY+variable CTO color mixing, plus a color wheel, 2 rotating Gobo wheels, iris, prism, and a more subtle and variable frost. It’s better for higher end touring, television, event, and theatrical applications. It also comes in a profile version (with a high CRI light engine, and framing shutters).


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## Jay Ashworth (May 27, 2018)

"Oh." 

Thanks.


Explains why the Mav is 3 times the price of the Rogue, certainly.


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## TimMc (May 28, 2018)

Jay Ashworth said:


> "Oh."
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> ...




We currently have 4 of the Mav MK2 Profile fixtures and a ~dozen MK2 Spots in our shop. We've gotten great responses from concert LDs and TV work, and we have a batch going out on a 5 show theatre run this summer. The designers that looked at the Mavs really liked them. We'll see what we all think in 3 months.


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## Jay Ashworth (May 29, 2018)

Are the Profile and the Spot 2 separate instruments, then?

Cause this page doesn't mention shutters:

https://www.chauvetprofessional.com/products/maverick-mk2-spot/


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## Ford (May 29, 2018)

Hi Jay,
Yes, they are 2 different fixtures. 
Here is the page for the profile:
https://www.chauvetprofessional.com/products/maverick-mk2-profile/


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## Jay Ashworth (May 29, 2018)

Well, that profile looks like it's in-class with Philips new top-of-the-line profile mover. Is yours less than $12 grand?


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## Ford (May 29, 2018)

The Street price of the MK2 Profile is about $5800. Your dealer may offer a discount based on quantity, or your relationship. But you won’t see it advertised for less than $5799.99.


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## JohnD (May 29, 2018)

By the way, glad to see you posting more here. For a while it seemed you were probably being run ragged with all the great, new stuff coming out. Or perhaps you just locked yourself away playing with all the new goodies. Any idea on how long before we see some ballpark figures for the new items, especially the IP65 moving wash?


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## Ford (May 29, 2018)

Pricing on all of the new gear should be out for InfoCOMM in June.


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## SteveB (May 29, 2018)

@SD

We are nearing completion on unpacking somewhat over 520 new units supplied about a month ago, thru various sources to our very-late-to-open new facility.

146 S4 incandescent ellipsoidals, 138 S4 Pars, 134 Lustre II’s, 52 D60’s, 24 Color Source Pars, 9 VL1100, 16 Elation Satiras, 10 Elation Platinum 7’s, 30 ColorForce strips, 28 Net3 Nodes, 3 Ions, spare lenses, top hats, barn doors, c-clamps, safety cables, gobo holders, etc.....etc.....

It’s a crap ton of work to unbox, count, test, etc.... been at it for 3 weeks and I missed the delivery and first week. Every LED needs connection to the console so you can run some up/down dim check, colors, etc.... and we haven’t yet checked if they need software updating. Getting rid of packing material alone is a few days.

Our TD got a brilliant idea to bar code everything which if nothing else, gave us a count of what was received.

I’ve been at it 8 days alone and haven’t yet run up the 35 movers. Finding space to store and count is a real issue.

So be prepared for a few weeks to get this stuff into the system.


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## sdauditorium (May 30, 2018)

SteveB said:


> @SD
> 
> We are nearing completion on unpacking somewhat over 520 new units supplied about a month ago, thru various sources to our very-late-to-open new facility.
> 
> ...



What space are you with Steve? I'd love to gleam the tech specs and spy the space 

Thanks for the words of wisdom. I believe our Chauvet stuff is shipping out tomorrow which is only the movers - 12 more R2 Washes (we had 3 already) and 12 Maverick MK2 Spots. We were originally going with the MK1s but made a last minute decision to switch out to the MK2s. 

The bulk of our fixtures/accessories are shipping out early June, so while I'm eagerly anticipating it and thankful it's nowhere near your 500+ fixtures (we're at about 140-150 total), I'm a bit overwhelmed simply thinking about unpacking and verifying counts alone, much less testing each fixture and checking for firmware updates prior to getting them up in the air. After that, it'll be working with our Ion to program some rep plot presets, palettes, and groups, which I haven't had much to do with lately.

I'm also a bit worried about storage, but it'll be a fun problem to have. In a good way, I'm happy we're being forced to get rid of our regular (for storage purposes) but hopeful we won't miss out on design needs from those fixtures.


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## sdauditorium (May 30, 2018)

A few pictures of a cleaned out dimmer room following this past Sunday's graduation. The old CD-80 and Environ 2 racks will be the first to be replaced during the conversion.


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## sdauditorium (Jun 5, 2018)

The electricians have been working since the middle of last week running conduit for data distribution and additional electrical outlets, checking wiring for our house light panels and working to strip the dimmer rack. If anyone is interested in a bunch (roughly 45) dual 2.4kW dimmer modules, let me know.


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## sdauditorium (Jun 13, 2018)

Our ETC gear has arrived. Chauvet movers here today, LEX cable products tomorrow, work lights next week and RJ follow spots in August!


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## JohnD (Jun 13, 2018)

sdauditorium said:


> Our ETC gear has arrived. Chauvet movers here today, LEX cable products tomorrow, work lights next week and RJ follow spots in August!View attachment 16425View attachment 16426View attachment 16427View attachment 16428


Just curious about the logistics of this, do you have a loading dock, or a forklift or did you need liftgate service. Those are mighty full pallets.


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## sdauditorium (Jun 13, 2018)

JohnD said:


> Just curious about the logistics of this, do you have a loading dock, or a forklift or did you need liftgate service. Those are mighty full pallets.



Great question. We don't have a loading dock. Everything is at-grade to street level, so they must have had a forklift. We temporarily have to store everything in our school's metals shop as our scene shop overhead door is blocked by roofing cranes and some other things in our scene shop.


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