# Three dimmers won't turn off



## Charc (Feb 10, 2008)

Okay, so I have an issue with circuits/dimmers 99, 100, and 109. (99 and 100 are in the same module).

These dimmers appear to be sending out 100% intensity all the time. I tested these circuits with my gamchek with the architectural panel off, but the board on. I only had one channel up though (fluorescent house-light circuits). So the racks should not have been receiving any levels for the suspect dimmers.

My first thought was bad SCR dimmer. When they go "bad" (can't remember the correct term, "blow"?) my understanding is they no longer dim, and SCR dimmers work by stopping power, not letting power through (like sine wave dimmers, right?), so when they go "bad" they don't stop any power, resulting in 100% intensity.

I explained the situation to the dept head, and suggested swapping the module with one of our unused positions (over 15 2x20A modules dedicated to FOH that are hardly used) to determine the issue is in the specific module. She said we shouldn't settle for broken gear in a relatively new install. She sent a work note along to the school's in-house electrician.

I wasn't informed of wether or not he was coming, or when. But he came, found no problem, and it appears maintenance is none too thrilled over wasting time on a false-alarm.

The dept head confessed to me the other day (in a slightly accusatory tone) that she didn't really understand what I was saying, and that she sent the note along to maintenance, which had come and determined everything was fine. She did tell me to contact maintenance myself, and handle any issue (if it exits).

I double checked my results, and it appears that there is in fact an issue with the dimmers in question. There are a couple more steps I could trouble shoot, but I really think the easiest thing to do at this point is to swap the modules. I've checked the SD80sv manual, and it's a simple enough task. (Greenia, Gaff, Derek, What Rigger?, Soundlight, Eboy17, oh and Phil, please don't jump on me for that comment.)

I think at this point the best thing for me to do is to type up a quick explanation of what the issue is, explain my tests, explain the module swap procedure, request to meet with the in-house electrician to explain the problem, and forward this document to the head of maintenance along with an apology for the misunderstanding last time.

So after that long winded explanation, here's my question to the booth:

Is a "bad" SCR dimmer the most likely issue? What are other probable issues (Perhaps the dimmers were set to panic for some reason, and panic mode activated? Perhaps when patching in fluros, these channels were set to constant-on?)? What information on SCR dimmers should I include in the document? Will I die a violent death from a module swap, _Derek_? 

Thanks for your time and attention,
Charlie


----------



## derekleffew (Feb 10, 2008)

That was more than one question, so I'm going to give more than one answer. In no particular order, just to make it harder for you. When either of the two SCRs fails in a dimmer, and in fact you actually have SSRs {which contain two SCRs, [in fact you may have a dual SSR, which contains 4 SCR's] [The original SCR looks much like a spark plug. An SSR looks like a square hockey puck, (what, making ice again?)]}, the dimmer can appear to be stuck ON OR stuck off. It sounds to me as though yours have appeared to have "gated on" if their output stays at full, when neither the Strand300, nor the architectural system, nor the "CEM™"-(sorry for using an ETC term, but I don't know what modern CD-80 Supervisor racks call them) is not telling those dimmers to be at full.

Whether or not a High School student should be permitted to swap dimmer modules has been debated here previously. [edit: My opinion, _(and I am NOT qualified to offer advice...Hire a professional...etc.)_...is that swapping a dimmer module is less dangerous than changing a screw base A-lamp, or plugging in an extension cord.] Your instincts (or what you have learned here) are spot on. Module swapping would be my first step in troubleshooting. Unfortunately, since you appear to facilities as to have previously "cried wolf," it may be difficult to get a building engineer to put down his coffee and donuts, and leave his soap-opera to come to your dimmer room so you can suggest an industry-strandard trouble-shooting procedure.

As to your drama dept. director's desire to make someone else fix it, the system is out of warranty, is it not? SSRs cost something nominal (under $50?), and changing them requires more mechanical than electronics skill. Not that I'm suggesting you do it, but don't ignore the thermally-conductive compound when changing SSRs.

However, my suggestion is to rip out the dimmers and install two racks of ETC Sensor™ (but not Sensor+), and perhaps an Ion while you're at it. I just worked with a 48way Sensor Rolling Rack with a 1993 serial number, which has most likely been all over the world many times, and it worked flawlessly, and even has slots (just like spare matte knife blades) for a spare CEM and two spare D20 modules).

I suspect one of CB's members could assist you in preparing a bid for console, dimmers, and fixtures. The more you buy, the less expensive each becomes.


----------



## gafftaper (Feb 10, 2008)

Charc, Walk up there, turn the breakers off before you pull. Grab that handle and pull with all your might... not really... then with a mighty shove put all the bad modules into circuits that are regularly used... houselights perhaps?... so that this time they can find your bad SCR's. Eventually your house electricians will figure out that they don't know how to fix them and you'll have to send them to the local theater shop. In my experience they cost about $100 per circuit to get fixed. 

The only safety thing is don't be stupid and reach inside the rack while the module is out to have a look around... You *WILL *die. Just swap them one at a time and you'll be perfectly safe. I've been told that you don't really even need to kill the breakers first but I always do.


----------



## Charc (Feb 10, 2008)

gafftaper said:


> Charc, Walk up there, turn the breakers off before you pull. Grab that handle and pull with all your might... not really... then with a mighty shove put all the bad modules into circuits that are regularly used... houselights perhaps?... so that this time they can find your bad SCR's. Eventually your house electricians will figure out that they don't know how to fix them and you'll have to send them to the local theater shop. In my experience they cost about $100 per circuit to get fixed.
> The only safety thing is don't be stupid and reach inside the rack while the module is out to have a look around... You *WILL *die. Just swap them one at a time and you'll be perfectly safe. I've been told that you don't really even need to kill the breakers first but I always do.



I'm afraid I have to disagree:


SD80sv Manual P.112 said:


> 2. Loosen the locking bar in front of the power module and slide it so that the power module can be removed.


----------



## derekleffew (Feb 10, 2008)

GaffMark:
A) You forgot that Charc doesn't access to the dimmer room.
B) The facilities people will get real angry after Charc purposefully leaves all his houselights ON and they burn out. Not to mention that someone may want a blackout before Facilities gets around to looking at the dimmer problem.
C) I had better never catch you moving modules around without labeling and documenting what you have done so as to aid in further troubleshooting.

I hope your ClassicPalette gets a virus.


----------



## JD (Feb 10, 2008)

Don’t you just love it when they come out and tell you “nothing is wrong” !!!

Now, on to your question. Yes, probably bad SCR as the failure mode turns them into a piece of wire! (Always on.) The failure is not intermittent in nature, once it happens, it’s a done thing. So, if for some reason they “unlatched” for even a second, you could rule that out. Still, it’s good to check out other options. Most dimmer packs use a microprocessor to control the SCRs. The micro basically reads the DMX info and then calculates how many clock ticks to count from the zero voltage point to the time the SCR should be gated on. The only reason this is important is that micros crash, so we want to insure that a hard reset is done before you call for surgery. With the board DMX disconnected, power the module down for 30 seconds. Sometimes a micro is used to control several channels, so we want to make sure that the micro is powered off, so I would suggest doing it at the main panel feed. If the channels still come on, we can almost be sure that we have SCR failures. I say almost because some data (such as idle set) are stored in non-volatile RAM. (eeprom) This would not reset with a “hard reset.” 

So, with the DMX disconnected and the power cycled, we can be sure that the board is not telling the channels to stay on, and it’s time to have the mods switched. Good luck.


----------



## Charc (Feb 10, 2008)

JD said:


> Don’t you just love it when they come out and tell you “nothing is wrong” !!!
> Now, on to your question. Yes, probably bad SCR as the failure mode turns them into a piece of wire! (Always on.) The failure is not intermittent in nature, once it happens, it’s a done thing. So, if for some reason they “unlatched” for even a second, you could rule that out. Still, it’s good to check out other options. Most dimmer packs use a microprocessor to control the SCRs. The micro basically reads the DMX info and then calculates how many clock ticks to count from the zero voltage point to the time the SCR should be gated on. The only reason this is important is that micros crash, so we want to insure that a hard reset is done before you call for surgery. With the board DMX disconnected, power the module down for 30 seconds. Sometimes a micro is used to control several channels, so we want to make sure that the micro is powered off, so I would suggest doing it at the main panel feed. If the channels still come on, we can almost be sure that we have SCR failures. I say almost because some data (such as idle set) are stored in non-volatile RAM. (eeprom) This would not reset with a “hard reset.”
> So, with the DMX disconnected and the power cycled, we can be sure that the board is not telling the channels to stay on, and it’s time to have the mods switched. Good luck.



*Gulp* main panel hard reset? If it is a microprocessor issue, will that be retained in the module in question if it is swapped, or the position in question? If it's a bad module, would opening the module make the condition apparent (Charring, broken connector, etc?)? Does opening the module void warranty?


----------



## JD (Feb 10, 2008)

Depends on the system. I have seen systems that have only one processor for a 12 channel pack, I have also seen systems that have fully contained modules with each channel having it’s own. (Guess which costs more, and which one was real cheap  )

Generally, when an SCR goes, there is no visible sign of failure. And depending on the system, opening the module would void it’s warranty, although many use open frame modules so there is nothing really to open once the module is out of the rack. In any case, there probably is nothing to see as the devises (SCR, Triac, SSR, IGBT, GOT) all fail internally.


----------



## derekleffew (Feb 10, 2008)

charcoaldabs said:


> ...If it's a bad module, would opening the module make the condition apparent (Charring, broken connector, etc?)? Does opening the module void warranty?


You're not, I don't think, opening the dimmer module, you're just pulling the "drawer" completely out and looking at it. But you most likely won't see anything suspicious. Here's a non-helpful informational link. Even if your system IS still under warranty, I doubt that this would be a warranty repair unless less than one-year old. Only once have I worked with a brand new dimmer installation, I think, and I didn't have to replace SSRs until 2 or 3 years out.

If, when one swaps modules, the problem follows the module, it's a bad module, easily repaired by a competent individual or one's friendly local lighting shop. Since it is three dimmers out of 192, I wouldn't even bother with a hard-reset. As was mentioned in the other thread, swapping modules is less hazardous than operating a 400-800A disconnect. Ignorant question: is there a "reset" button on the Control Module of each rack? Are both of your racks fully populated; and are all slots wired? (I.e., does every circuit 1>192 appear somewhere in the stage or auditorium?)

How about this, page 114 of the CD80SV manual says exactly what we've been telling you.


----------



## Charc (Feb 10, 2008)

derekleffew said:


> You're not, I don't think, opening the dimmer module, you're just pulling the "drawer" completely out and looking at it. But you most likely won't see anything suspicious. Here's a non-helpful informational link. Even if your system IS still under warranty, I doubt that this would be a warranty repair unless less than one-year old. Only once have I worked with a brand new dimmer installation, I think, and I didn't have to replace SSRs until 2 or 3 years out.
> If, when one swaps modules, the problem follows the module, it's a bad module, easily repaired by a competent individual or one's friendly local lighting shop. Since it is three dimmers out of 192, I wouldn't even bother with a hard-reset. As was mentioned in the other thread, swapping modules is less hazardous than operating a 400-800A disconnect. Ignorant question: is there a "reset" button on the Control Module of each rack? Are both of your racks fully populated; and are all slots wired? (I.e., does every circuit 1>192 appear somewhere in the stage or auditorium?



One slot has a faux front, so I'm assuming that's "not populated". Otherwise the racks are fully populated. I do believe that everything shows up in the theatre, it's hard to tell though, because house-light sconces aren't labeled.

Reset button, I think so, but I need to check.

Yea, I'd just swap a module.

The "opening a module" bit was in reference to JD's disconnect comment. I was looking for alternatives to working with hundreds of amps of live power. If there is no visible failure from a bad dimmer, then the plan is to just swap the module, easiest next step. I also think it's the most likely. I may have the in-house electrician though, because if anything gets f'ed up it's my head on the chopping block.


----------



## Grog12 (Feb 10, 2008)

Charc...do this for me...because I'm an anal retentive screw ball. Anything in your theatre that might control the dimmers...shut them off! Your board, your architectuals, anything that might control them.

Are the dimmers still outputting power?

If they aren't problem solved you have a screwed up patch somewhere.

If they are...you have a larger issue which might be said SCR problems.


----------



## gafftaper (Feb 10, 2008)

derekleffew said:


> GaffMark:
> A) You forgot that Charc doesn't access to the dimmer room.
> B) The facilities people will get real angry after Charc purposefully leaves all his houselights ON and they burn out. Not to mention that someone may want a blackout before Facilities gets around to looking at the dimmer problem.
> C) I had better never catch you moving modules around without labeling and documenting what you have done so as to aid in further troubleshooting.
> I hope your ClassicPalette gets a virus.



Sorry... forgot about the no access student thing. That's actually what I did as a teacher getting ignored by the custodial staff. If they can't turn the lights off it'll get their attention and they'll have to figure out how to fix it. 

(It may not get a virus but it's hard to tell if I don't get decent training.)


----------



## Charc (Feb 10, 2008)

gafftaper said:


> Sorry... forgot about the no access student thing. That's actually what I did as a teacher getting ignored by the custodial staff. If they can't turn the lights off it'll get their attention and they'll have to figure out how to fix it.
> (It may not get a virus but it's hard to tell if I don't get decent training.)



To chime in, it's not because I'm a student. The dimmer room was originally keyed under a different dept. The theatre dept requested it be keyed as a Z key. They had a ZM tumbler deal lying around so they threw that guy in. The spare key I've "borrowed from the dept head" 24/7 for the last 12 months is her spare key, which happens to be a Z9. She can't get another ZM though, because then there'd be questions asked about where her key disappeared to.

So if I want to get in, I just have to borrow the dept head's, TD's or maintenance guy's key.


----------



## soundlight (Feb 11, 2008)

As long as you don't reach in to the racks at all (usually obvious, but I always state the obvious), swapping modules isn't nearly as dangerous as plugging in a stagepin connector. When we clean modules at my theatre, we simply take them out one by one, while the rack is live, and blow them out with the air compressor. Then put them back in, one by one. Of course, we make sure that there is no load on them while we are cleaning, and turn the breakers off before removing them, but nothing else...just pull out the module, clean it, and return it to its slot. The power connections are in the far back of the rack, so you won't come anywhere near the high-amperage power. So, if you can get facilities in there, you have an easy way to figure out if it's the dimmer module or something else.


----------



## derekleffew (Feb 11, 2008)

soundlight said:


> As long as you don't reach in to the racks at all (usually obvious, but I always state the obvious), swapping modules isn't nearly as dangerous as plugging in a stagepin connector. When we clean modules at my theatre, we simply take them out one by one, while the rack is live, and blow them out with the air compressor. ...


Might I add that with ETC Sensor, Colortran D192, ENR, and i-series, I'm not sure you could get your hand in there to touch any live contacts if you wanted to, as long as you pull only one module at a time.

If I were pulling all the modules for cleaning, even one by one, I would LOTO the entire rack, then one needn't even switch off the breakers on each module.

However, I do have an issue with you using an air compressor to blow out your dimmers, soundlight[/user.] And do you do this blowing out in the [autolink]dimmer[/autolink] room?


----------



## soundlight (Feb 11, 2008)

derekleffew said:


> However, I do have an issue with you using an air compressor to blow out your dimmers, soundlight[/user.] And do you do this blowing out in the [autolink]dimmer[/autolink] room?[/quote]
> 
> [autolink]Compressor[/autolink] is at low PSI to not damage electronics. And the [autolink]dimmer[/autolink] room is located through two doors through the back of the shop downstairs, so we just take the modules out in to the shop and clean them. No dust left in the [autolink]dimmer[/autolink] room. Is there any other problem with this method?


----------



## derekleffew (Feb 11, 2008)

soundlight said:


> Compressor is at low PSI to not damage electronics. And the dimmer room is located through two doors through the back of the shop downstairs, so we just take the modules out in to the shop and clean them. No dust left in the dimmer room. Is there any other problem with this method?


Air compressor air is not "clean air," so you are covering your components with microscopic droplets of oil. Might as well just put a DF-50 into the air intakes. The oil will actually attract dust and debris. Just my 2¢. 

And carrying each dual module "through two doors through the back of the shop downstairs" and back must get tiresome. It would make more sense to me to LOTO the rack, remove all the modules, clean them, then mix them up so each gets exercised equally (the cyclight dimmers never work as hard as the FOH dimmers, as some shows don't use the cyc). And while you're at it, be sure to remove the winter air in your car's tires and put it summer air. Do the reverse in the fall.

Also note that ETC recommends vacuuming Racks and Modules as necessary, rather than blowing the dust away.


----------



## soundlight (Feb 11, 2008)

derekleffew said:


> Air compressor air is not "clean air," so you are covering your components with microscopic droplets of oil. Might as well just put a DF-50 into the air intakes. The oil will actually attract dust and debris. Just my 2¢.
> 
> And carrying each dual module "through two doors through the back of the shop downstairs" and back must get tiresome. It would make more sense to me to LOTO the rack, remove all the modules, clean them, then mix them up so each gets exercised equally (the cyclight dimmers never work as hard as the FOH dimmers, as some shows don't use the cyc). And while you're at it, be sure to remove the winter air in your car's tires and put it summer air. Do the reverse in the fall.



If it wasn't an oil-free compressor then I'd be able to go with that argument. And it's a mere 8 steps out to the shop, but you pass through two doors in those five steps. Grab a few modules, walk out, blow them off, walk back in. And they do get shuffled in the racks. It wouldn't be practical to take out 384 dimmer modules and put them carefully in to boxes, put them on a hand truck, walk them all 8 steps out to the low-particulate side of the shop, and blow them all off, then take them all back in.


----------



## gafftaper (Feb 11, 2008)

I've always heard that you should never blow your dimmers clean always vacuum only. I'm also not a fan of blowing dust around just to be doing it... even if it is outside. Thus the vacuum makes sense as it keeps the dust confined. 

Soundlight, You could roll the shop vac into the dimmer room and clean them on the spot.


----------



## TimMiller (Feb 11, 2008)

blowing always removes better than suction. When i go out to clean dimmers and such i use an air compressor set at about 30 psi, and a shop vac with a nice large opening to help suck the dust.

Now back on topic....
Simply turn off the breakers on the dimmers. Loosen the holding bar if there is one, some cd80's had them others didnt. Pull the module out, it wont be easy to pull out, they are in there good. (on one of our road racks it uses CD-80 modules, and i have to hold the rack with my feet then pull on the module with both hands. Its not an easy task.) To reseat the modules i slam them back into the rack. If i dont it will no reseat correctly, and you will know it if it doesnt. The module will not be all the way in the rack. If you would like i can take some pics of what it looks like when you pull a module out of a CD-80. There is nothing to it. I can also take pics of what it looks like inside the module.


----------



## Chris15 (Feb 11, 2008)

I agree with Derek here. LOTO time... BUT, a student doing LOTO - that could raise questions me thinks... IF it is dangerous enough to need lock out tag out, then how is it safe for a student to be doing it? Oh wait, I forgot. We're talking about charc now aren't we... His school just worries us all so what's one more issue?


----------



## icewolf08 (Feb 11, 2008)

Well, there are a lot of things to respond to here...

First off, Charc may have done some questionable things in the past, but I think that he is more than capable to pull out a dimmer module and stick it in another place in the rack. I know that we preach safety, but as has been said, you have to try pretty hard to zap yourself when you are swapping dimmers. If you are at all concerned, have your TD supervise (since you need his keys anyway).

Next, Dereck, what is wrong with Sensor+ racks? I have 4, they work great, and really the only difference is the CEM, all the modules are exactly the same. Besides, can you even still get the original Sensor racks?

Lastly, cleaning. There are oil free compressors and air delivery service. There are many things that don't like to have oil in the air, but there are many tools that need either oil in the line or to be oiled regularly. So, many people/shops have clean air outlets and outlets with oil. Just use the right one and you should be fine. Be gentle, but the ETC guys who did our Dimmer turn on and walk through told us that gentle with the comp-air should be fine. That, and there is the interesting trick with the old ETC CEM where often the airflow sensor would get clogged, thus forcing the rack fans on full time and causing airflow warnings, which just required a quick hit with comp air to clean out the sensor.

You should be cleaning your racks out every 400 operational hours (that is 400 hours with at least one dimmer on in a rack). At least that is what the ETC guys told me. Even in a "dust free" environment, unless you actually have your dimmers in a clean room, you should be cleaning them.

And now back to your regularly scheduled program...


----------



## JD (Feb 11, 2008)

That's one think I miss about my old analog EDI racks (memory lane here), you could hot swap dimmers in the middle of a show if the need arose. Funny thing there was, in 15 years I never got to do that as none of them failed. Shame they were analog and weighed a ton. Oh well.

As for compressed air, I used a 30 psi system with a filter and a portable tank. Since this was a road show, I usually cleaned them outside on the tailgate of the truck. About once every year. One note of caution: Look at how the components are mounted first. The EDI mods were pretty indestructible, but I've seen dimmer mods where parts are on long leads or in positions where even a 30 psi blast could damage the part or cause ring cracks on the pcb. 

This being the 80s, the biggest accumulation annoyance was tars from cigarette smoke! You could smell it right on the mods! 

Back on the subject of the dimmer failure, I find it interesting that 3 channels failed at the same time. Did they have anything in common?


----------



## TimMiller (Feb 11, 2008)

depending on the age of the cd-80 it may have had a ramp card go out. But if its a newer one the processor does everything, it does not have a ramp card.


----------



## derekleffew (Feb 11, 2008)

The instructions for removing/replacing a Sensor dimmer module are as follows (from the doc titled "SensorSP6_Port.pdf"):
*Removing dimmer modules*
To remove dimmer modules, open the door, then grasp the
center part of the face panel with both hands and pull.
To replace the module, insert it firmly until you feel it seat
securely. When the module is correctly seated, it should be
flush with the other dimmer modules.
Warning: Do not touch the AC power bus. If more than one
adjacent modules are removed, the AC bus is exposed.

Note that the document does not state, as it should, that the D20(AF) module's two circuit breakers should be switched OFF before removing. NOR is there any warning regarding removal/insertion while active.

As to the CEM/CEM+ debate, _I_ *WILL NOT* buy/recommend/specify a Sensor+ rack/pack until the numeric keypad returns. I should not have to require a laptop to address a Road Rack, or "set" a dimmer @Level; nor have to remember non-intuitive CheckMark and LightBulb icons.

I place the CEM+ in the same category containing 1986's New Coke and 1958's Ford Edsel. 

STEVETERRY, please provide the industry with a "CEM-Classic". Don't make me resume using L86s, and burning EEPROMs!


----------



## Charc (Feb 11, 2008)

Alex and Tim,

Aren't you concerned about showering your modules in tiny droplets of condensation from your compressors? I would think canned air is a better solution.

Here's a spur of a question:

Does blowing/sucking out dust markedly improve dimmer life?


----------



## icewolf08 (Feb 11, 2008)

charcoaldabs said:


> Alex and Tim,
> Aren't you concerned about showering your modules in tiny droplets of condensation from your compressors? I would think canned air is a better solution.
> Here's a spur of a question:
> Does blowing/sucking out dust markedly improve dimmer life?


Not concerned so much about water, not here in UT where you barely need a towel after getting out of a pool. To keep a humidity level of over 30% in my small (600 sq-ft) apartment I need to run 10+ gallons of water in my humidifier a day. Canned air can have condensation as well, so no real benefit.

Cleaning your dimmers improves performance, helps prevent overheating, reduces risk of fire, and yes, can keep your dimmers working longer for all of the above reasons.


----------



## Chris15 (Feb 11, 2008)

Off the top of my head, it's the compression process that causes condensation, so it is irrelevant whether the air comes from a compressor or from a can. And canned air is rather expensive...

Dislodging dust - yes, very much it improves things. Dust acts like a blanket. In Summer, when it's hot and say you've been exercising, you don't want a blanket permanently attached now do you? The same general theory applies to electronics. If they are covered in dust, grease and grime, then there is a somewhat substantial thermal inefficiency. Basically they can't dissipate the heat like they were designed to. If heat can't be dissipated, it builds up. Heat builds up and starts causing failures of various bits and pieces as well as placing more load on the cooling system, which, half the time, is also full of dust and so it works a bit like an artery with cholesterol lined walls, it can't pass as much air through and so the heatsinks which are relying on this forced air movement find they aren't getting the rated volume of air movement and so don't dissipate heat properly and will either trigger over temperature alarms or see above statements on not dissipating heat properly. Besides, fan grills which are covered in dust are a really good sign that you don't really care about your gear enough to keep it clean and I HATE the sound of a clogged fan grill when the fan is running. Yes, you can hear the difference, the fan sound like it's struggling because funnily enough it is...

While I was writing this, Alex posted, with what is essentially the gist of what I'm saying. I just used more words...


----------



## TimMiller (Feb 11, 2008)

I have a air filter in line to filter out any water. Also, a few little water droplets never hurt anything , as long as its dry before reinstalling into the rack. I have done a few out door shows where our dimmer rack has gone for good little swim. After drying out with towels and hair dryer, fuctions just as good as new .


----------



## gafftaper (Feb 12, 2008)

I clean my dimmers by dipping them in a 5 gallon bucket of Van's VSSD/MEK ULTRA Cleaner. They'll be shiny and I guarantee you'll never have a problem with the dimmers turning on again.


----------



## icewolf08 (Feb 12, 2008)

Hughesie89 said:


> *nerdy accent*
> i water cool mine


That is a lousy joke, there are fixtures, and most probably dimmers that use liquid cooling. Ever seen the lamps they use for IMAX projectors? Those have liquid cooling within the lamp. So while you may think it a funny joke, it is in fact a reality.


----------



## derekleffew (Feb 12, 2008)

Shall I mention the Vari*Lite VL5 "Liquid Lens"? I'd better not. Nevermind. You didn't hear that from me.


----------



## STEVETERRY (Feb 12, 2008)

derekleffew said:


> The instructions for removing/replacing a Sensor dimmer module are as follows (from the doc titled "SensorSP6_Port.pdf"):
> *Removing dimmer modules*
> To remove dimmer modules, open the door, then grasp the
> center part of the face panel with both hands and pull.
> ...



The UL listing is not specific on this issue. But why would you hot swap? I'd warrant it would not even save you 100 ms to turn off the breakers and then re-energize them when the module is seated. Do it that way--it's just prudent for high powered electrical gear.

As to the CEM+ user interface, I feel your pain and we are working on a solution you will love.

ST


----------



## icewolf08 (Feb 12, 2008)

STEVETERRY said:


> As to the CEM+ user interface, I feel your pain and we are working on a solution you will love.
> ST


But is it going to cost me to upgrade to your new solution?


----------



## STEVETERRY (Feb 12, 2008)

icewolf08 said:


> But is it going to cost me to upgrade to your new solution?



Whatever answer I give, I can't win!

Let's wait for the solution, and then we can have that discussion!

ST


----------



## derekleffew (Feb 12, 2008)

STEVETERRY said:


> ...As to the CEM+ user interface, I feel your pain and we are working on a solution you will love.


Do I get a prize if the name chosen for the new product is "ETC CEM++™ "?


----------



## STEVETERRY (Feb 12, 2008)

derekleffew said:


> Do I get a prize if the name chosen for the new product is "ETC CEM++™ "?



We're way ahead of you....

ST


----------



## derekleffew (Feb 12, 2008)

STEVETERRY said:


> We're way ahead of you....
> 
> ST


I call shenanigans, as you had a head start!

Back to topic. Charc tells me he is going again to his facilities people armed with more ammunition from this thread. He also has the Strand Lighting part# required if failed SSRs are indeed the issue with his dimmers 99/100 and 109


----------



## Charc (Feb 12, 2008)

derekleffew said:


> I call shenanigans, as you had a head start!
> Back to topic. Charc tells me he is going again to his facilities people armed with more ammunition from this thread. He also has the Strand Lighting part# required if failed SSRs are indeed the issue with his dimmers 99/100 and 109



Yep, 6th and 7th periods. Meeting with in-house electrician during that time at some point. Also going to run a couple other issues by him, and ask him to bring his DMM for a start. (I need to get new batteries for mine, and the weather outside is frightful!


----------



## TimMiller (Feb 13, 2008)

Every venue i go into i make sure i become good friends with the electricians. You never know when you may need their help.


----------



## derekleffew (Feb 13, 2008)

charcoaldabs said:


> ...and ask him to bring his DMM for a start. (I need to get new batteries for mine)...


Please let us know if it's a TrueRMS, but I'm betting it's not.

 (Radio Shack is probably the most expedient.)

 As a, sometimes House Electrician, that's pretty good advice, [user]TimMiller[/user]. A cash gratuity also works wonders to make the next show in the venue even easier. This is Las Vegas, after all; and I for one, enjoy/appreciate when my palm is greased.


----------



## sloop (Feb 13, 2008)

Wow did this thread ever go off track!!!

OK.. Have you shut off all controllers?? Are the lights still on?? If they are, you have a patch/control patch error. 

With architectural controls systems interlinked with theatrical lighting consoles it is possible to program the controller so you have channels locked on as non-dims. I have seen this done on purpose to provide power for ghost lights for the theatre. (safety light that are on when everything else is off)...


----------



## derekleffew (Feb 15, 2008)

Hey, Charc. Today I just happened to be in the repair dept. of my friendly local theatrical supply house. And happened to see a dimmer module identical to yours: Strand CD-80 Supervisor dual 20A module. Not that I'm advising you to do this, paticularly without supervision from a qualified individual; but replacing the SSR involves unscrewing six Phillips machine screws, and pulling five connectors, (the hardest part is labeling the four 12g. wires: two black, two white), physically replacing the failed/suspect SSR & schmearing on the heat compound (just like cream cheese on a bagel), and re-connecting the connectors and re-screwing the screws. Most twelve year-olds possess the mechanical and cognitive skills required.


----------



## Charc (Feb 15, 2008)

derekleffew said:


> Hey, Charc. Today I just happened to be in the repair dept. of my friendly local theatrical supply house. And happened to see a dimmer module identical to yours: Strand CD-80 Supervisor dual 20A module. Not that I'm advising you to do this, paticularly without supervision from a qualified individual; but replacing the SSR involves unscrewing six Phillips machine screws, and pulling five connectors, (the hardest part is labeling the four 12g. wires: two black, two white), physically replacing the failed/suspect SSR & schmearing on the heat compound (just like cream cheese on a bagel), and re-connecting the connectors and re-screwing the screws. Most twelve year-olds possess the mechanical and cognitive skills required.



Thanks Derek. However, my biology test took precedence over theatre today, and I did not have any frees to track down maintenance.


----------



## Grog12 (Feb 16, 2008)

charcoaldabs said:


> Thanks Derek. However, my biology test took precedence over theatre today, and I did not have any frees to track down maintenance.


Bah what kind of man of the theatre are you? Biology pfffff!


----------



## Charc (Feb 16, 2008)

Grog12 said:


> Bah what kind of man of the theatre are you? Biology pfffff!



When was the last time you had to use your knowledge of both the Lytic and Losogenic cycles at your workplace?


----------



## Les (Feb 17, 2008)

Yeah you will totally get asked about that in all job interviews.


----------



## Charc (Feb 27, 2008)

Spent as long as 2 hours during school today with as many as three maintenance guys working with me.  Resolved many issues. The maintenance dept head will have to order some parts, or just new modules... they are worried about voiding warranties.

We will need at least one new module though: It was really burned out. The SSR pack was a black brick, the leads were all messed up, the copper coil deals were messed up, there was charring everywhere.


----------



## derekleffew (Feb 28, 2008)

Glad you got some things sorted out. Your system was installed in 2006, correct? Anyone know exactly how long the warranty period is on a CD-80 Supervisor install? Keep us informed, charcoaldabs, if you are able to get warranty repair on your system. (As _I_ think the warranty period has long lapsed. ETC folks, what is the warranty period on a Sensor rack, and are SSRs covered?)


----------



## Charc (Feb 28, 2008)

derekleffew said:


> Glad you got some things sorted out. Your system was installed in 2006, correct? Anyone know exactly how long the warranty period is on a CD-80 Supervisor install? Keep us informed, charcoaldabs, if you are able to get warranty repair on your system. (As _I_ think the warranty period has long lapsed. ETC folks, what is the warranty period on a Sensor rack, and are SSRs covered?)



I think the install was from '04.


----------



## derekleffew (Feb 28, 2008)

And did your facility buy the "Super Extended Life-Time Warranty of any student who ever attended"? Dude, fix it yourself or pay an outrageous amount to Strand, or your local factory-authorized service provider. 

The odometer is broken on my 1995 Pickup. Should I take it back to Toyota and demand that they fix it under warranty?


----------



## Charc (Feb 28, 2008)

derekleffew said:


> And did your facility buy the "Super Extended Life-Time Warranty of any student who ever attended"? Dude, fix it yourself or pay an outrageous amount to Strand, or your local factory-authorized service provider.
> The odometer is broken on my 1995 Pickup. Should I take it back to Toyota and demand that they fix it under warranty?



It's not my call, Derek. The maintenance guys seemed slightly befuddled by the dimmers, though I did note that SSR packs are circa $40, and not hard to install.


----------



## Van (Feb 28, 2008)

derekleffew said:


> Most twelve year-olds possess the mechanical and cognitive skills required.


 
I think a chimpanzee missing two fingers on his right hand one on his left blind in one eye and suffering from Parkinsons has the cognitive and mechanical skills require to work on a CD-80 SCR.


charcoaldabs said:


> .....The maintenance guys seemed slightly befuddled by the dimmers, .....


 
Thus proving my point.


----------



## TimMiller (Mar 1, 2008)

I can split one apart and make a little REPLACING SCR's FOR DUMMIES


----------



## Hughesie (Mar 1, 2008)

where is a strand repair rep when you need one 

we're loaded up with people from other companies.....

but that doesn't help you much though does it, i know i can't help i try and provide light entertainment while you struggle though this issue.


----------



## Darthrob13 (Mar 4, 2008)

Warranty on a system installed in '04 has been expired for 2 years.

New modules can be made same day for SV. I am sure that there are loads of them out there for purchase from used stock.

In Philly your best bet is to contact Century Lighting in New Jersey. 

D


----------



## derekleffew (Mar 4, 2008)

That would be Joel Epstein, the guy who did the commisioning of my original Light Palette in 1980.

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]*Century Lighting Service, Inc.* [/FONT] 
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]18-02 River Road[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Fair Lawn, NJ 07410-1201[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica](201) 791-7001 FAX (201) 791-3167[/FONT]
_[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Contact: Sal Maratta & Joel Epstein
E-Mail:[email protected] [/FONT]_
_[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Specializing in old and obsolete dimming equipment to current equipment.[/FONT]_ _[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Field service coverage of the Eastern United States.[/FONT]_


----------



## Charc (Mar 4, 2008)

I was informed by a maintenance member (Not head of maintenance, who said he will be talking to me shortly) that the plan is to purchase a replacement module for the burned out one, and send the other modules out for repair, leaving airflow holes in my rack!


----------



## JD (Mar 4, 2008)

Gee, looks like they chose the most expensive and time consuming possible option they could think of 

Can't you just feel that "back order" notice going in the mail as we type?


----------



## derekleffew (Mar 4, 2008)

Darthrob13 said:


> ...New modules can be made same day for SV. I am sure that there are loads of them out there for purchase from used stock...


I have seen used CD-80 Supervisor dual 2.4kw modules as low as $30 on the various used gear Internet sites. That's less expensive than replacing an SSR. With minimal wiring skills, one could fabricate his/her own "Constant On" modules, to provide 120V power for moving lights, gadgets, etc.


----------



## avkid (Mar 4, 2008)

charcoaldabs said:


> leaving airflow holes in my rack


Are these standard rack spaces?
19 wide by 1.75in high
If so that can be easily and cheaply taken care of.
http://www.audiopile.net/products/Cases/Rack_Panel_Blanks/Rack_Panel_Blanks_cutsheet.asp


----------



## Charc (Mar 4, 2008)

avkid said:


> Are these standard rack spaces?
> 19 wide by 1.75in high
> If so that can be easily and cheaply taken care of.
> http://www.audiopile.net/products/Cases/Rack_Panel_Blanks/Rack_Panel_Blanks_cutsheet.asp



A swing and a miss!

This is not my model, but as you can see each module is a much smaller space:




You are right though Phil, they do make blanks, but we only have one, it fills in a never populated slot.

Derek, I don't need constant on. If we ever do rent movers though, the constant on option sounds nice.

I plan to present a document on why it's better to replace the SSRs, but if I have time (show goes up Thursday) before they send the stuff out, I don't know.


----------



## derekleffew (Mar 4, 2008)

charcoaldabs said:


> ...Derek, I don't need constant on. If we ever do rent movers though, the constant on option sounds nice...


I only mentioned it as an option as your management is leaning toward replacing the entire dual module, leaving you with a still broken module, which you could easily bypass the (failed) SSR (I am not suggesting you do this without proper supervision) and use if you need a constant on, or as an "air flow module" with both circuit breakers turned OFF. Suppose you magically get the money to rent scrollers or gobo rotators or Seachangers. It would be better to run them via a "Constant On" module than just plugged into any old wall outlet.


----------



## Charc (Mar 4, 2008)

derekleffew said:


> I only mentioned it as an option as your management is leaning toward replacing the entire dual module, leaving you with a still broken module, which you could easily bypass the (failed) SSR (I am not suggesting you do this without proper supervision) and use if you need a constant on, or as an "air flow module" with both circuit breakers turned OFF. Suppose you magically get the money to rent scrollers or gobo rotators or Seachangers. It would be better to run them via a "Constant On" module than just plugged into any old wall outlet.



Ah, no, they are only completely replacing the burned out one... I don't know if I want that guy back in the rack.

Plus, we have some nice, legit, NEMA 5-15 sockets.

P.S. Speaking of rentals: We are renting from Starlite! Shazam! Maybe we'll get scrollers next time!

Edit: But I'm not sure if the dept head rented correctly: $125ish for 3 x 3cell CYC washes?


----------



## derekleffew (Mar 4, 2008)

charcoaldabs said:


> ...Edit: But I'm not sure if the dept head rented correctly: $125ish for 3 x 3cell CYC washes?


Each or for all three? For a week? Altman SkyCyc, Colortran FarCyc, or Strand/Ianiro Iris3 (my favorite)? 500, 750, 1K, 1500, or 2K per cell?


----------



## JD (Mar 4, 2008)

Ah! You already have 3 "always on" units! Just keep one!

A blown SCR works just like a wire


----------



## Charc (Mar 4, 2008)

JD: Good point, noted, but it'll be fixed, not my call.

Derek: All three, I _think_ one week, 1kW, unknown model, no delivery.


----------



## derekleffew (Mar 4, 2008)

Sounds like a fair price to me.


----------



## Charc (Mar 4, 2008)

derekleffew said:


> Sounds like a fair price to me.



****. How much are S4s, or Scrollers/Cable/PSU?

And why doesn't Starlite have their prices online?


----------



## avkid (Mar 4, 2008)

charcoaldabs said:


> why doesn't Starlite have their prices online?


Maybe because prices aren't the same for everyone.


----------



## TimMiller (Mar 4, 2008)

man, you got the nice upgraded CD-80. SCR's do go out, but they are cheap and there is nothing to them. Replacing an SCR is easier than replacing a ballast in a flourescent.


----------



## Charc (Mar 4, 2008)

avkid said:


> Maybe because prices aren't the same for everyone.



Yea, I know, but I've always felt like companies should provide the sorta "base line" price. The "if you were John Doe renting one S4" price. People know that the price is variable but it can be helpful, if only to provide a sense of how much stuff is going to cost.


----------



## icewolf08 (Mar 5, 2008)

I have a bunch of old CD-80 parts, you are welcome to have them as long as you take care of getting them out of my theatre!


----------



## Darthrob13 (Mar 5, 2008)

icewolf08 said:


> I have a bunch of old CD-80 parts, you are welcome to have them as long as you take care of getting them out of my theatre!



IF you have SV brains they are gold.


----------



## TimMiller (Mar 13, 2008)

Check out this and look on page 121 http://www.strandlighting.com/clientuploads/directory/downloads/CD80SV.pdf


----------



## Charc (Apr 1, 2008)

Century lighting told us to send the modules back to them...? They apparently don't have parts for them anymore...?


----------



## Charc (Jun 18, 2008)

Redux:

Community theatre with 4 dimmers that won't turn on (blown SCRs/SSRs, what have you). If these were just modules, I'd feel comfortable installing new powercubes. However, Craptronics apparently doesn't put too much info up online, and I don't trust these two rack mounted RE-121Ls.

From a few second glance it appeared that all of the conduits run to the dimmers were terribly mismatched in terms of color coding, with no nice e-tape on the end... Talk about a place where you want a DMM. Also, the installers left one of the junction boxes pretty wide opened, and mis-wired some other circuits, based on the original plan.


----------



## TimMiller (Jun 18, 2008)

on the craptronics you have to remove the cover on the dimmer and replace them that way. I friggin pita.


----------



## Charc (Jun 18, 2008)

TimMiller said:


> on the craptronics you have to remove the cover on the dimmer and replace them that way. I friggin pita.



They've already got a quote and some guys lined up for $900.


----------



## Charc (Jun 19, 2008)

Oh, look what I found. So a new unit costs significantly less than the repair? Oh well. If only I was qualified and knew enough to install this, it would save them some good money. I wouldn't be surprised if this organization paid over a thousand-a-piece for this, factor in this repair bill, and it puts the RE-121D neck and neck with the SmartPack.


----------



## TimMiller (Jun 20, 2008)

if you have a friend that is an electrican it wouldnt be hard to fix. I wish i could charge 900 bucks for simply replacing some scr's. you just disconnect the wiring and pull out the module, and unscrew the cover, you will see them right there on top.

OK SO I JUST HAD A FRIGGIN COOL IDEA FOR RACK MOUNTED INSTALL DIMMERS. When you install them, buy some rack rails (they are sold at all "real computer stores", the computer stores that sell servers and such) The servers are on rack rails, so if you have to replace some piece of hardware, you undo the 4 rack screws (for servers they just serve the purpose of keeping the servers from sliding out of the rack) and then you can slide out the dimmer you want. Rack rails work the exact same as drawers. Just leave some slack in the back of the rack nicely loomed, and your ready to go. No more dissasembling racks.


----------



## derekleffew (Jun 20, 2008)

Tim, check your nomenclature. I believe rack rails are the vertical pieces mounted 19" apart. What you are describing I have called rack slides. I would hope one is not removing and installing one's dimmers often enough to warrant the extra cost of the slides.


----------



## TimMiller (Jun 24, 2008)

I have heard them called many different things. Commonly when i hear rack rail i'm thinking the standard rail that mounts on both sides of the rack. It would add up the price of an install but also make service easier. Personally i do not think it is that hard to remove a dimmer out of a rack.


----------

