# Rigging Question (Tieing off a line set)



## wemeck

Back in my college days at SIUC they use to use tie lines to secure the line sets while loading. After a change in faculty the theater program started to use 4' pieces of 1x4 to twist around the ropes and then place the 1x4 between the arbor tracks to help prevent movement during weight changes. Well one day we ran out of weights at had to borrows some "pigs" from the campus events theater. While there I noticed they did not use 1x4 or tie lines but had a steel bar that had two or three 3" by 1/4" to 1/2" steel pegs that the ropes were fished through. I was wondering if anyone had seen or know of such a tool and what it is called? Also if you have any other suggestions on tieing off a line set.


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## wolf825

wemeck said:


> Back in my college days at SIUC they use to use tie lines to secure the line sets while loading. After a change in faculty the theater program started to use 4' pieces of 1x4 to twist around the ropes and then place the 1x4 between the arbor tracks to help prevent movement during weight changes. Well one day we ran out of weights at had to borrows some "pigs" from the campus events theater. While there I noticed they did not use 1x4 or tie lines but had a steel bar that had two or three 3" by 1/4" to 1/2" steel pegs that the ropes were fished through. I was wondering if anyone had seen or know of such a tool and what it is called? Also if you have any other suggestions on tieing off a line set.



This is usually called a "dog" on an arbor. Like "watch dog". Dogging an arbor basically means putting a catch or bind in the ropes to lock them off. This is usually done by sticking a piece of pipe--usually old bottom pipe works well, into the ropes and wrapping the ropes together to lock it off--and then propping the rope into the steel to hold it in place. Works very well and is very common--and there are various techniques when dogging a pipe and releasing it, especially when you have a heavy loaded arbor and you do not have wieght yet on a pipe..this is usually called "rolling the dog"...otherwise you risk a freefall of heavy weight that can get out of control. Rolling a dog alows you to maintain control while the pipe rolls. Additionally--the Dog in a rope simply binds the rope together so the rope will not run...if you were to simply twist the rope--the simple application of pressure to the twist will hold the rope in place. 

The other device you mentioned--with several smaller rungs that the rope is weaved thru--is a similar thing. It breaks the straight up and down tension on the rope thus binding it--and this device is used more in Nauticle and sailing applications then in Theater from my experience. But I have seen them in theater--and it works and is safe. Cannot remember the name of this instrument tho... If you have ever made a catspaw knot onto a loop or hook, this and dogging are similar in principle. 

Tieing off a rope is, in my experience, one of the least favorable and least safe ways to secure it, because you get rope onto rope that are usually of different sizes--and thus you can have "cutting" into the main arbor line by the hold line. Using rope on rope simply puts too much pressure into one spot on a rope and can weaken that area of the rope severely under heavy weight, where Dogging spreads out the grip and pressure among all the turns so it is even and not to one point. The dog pipe is simply a keystone to hold the dog in place... The tieing method also relies heavily in the person who wrapped the rope on and applied the tension..which IMO is open to slippage...where dogging--even if you did only two or three wraps, you are pretty darn secure and it cannot really slip until you either take out tension or remove the dog pipe. 

The only other way I have seen to tie off an arbor is to use a 1/2" - 1" webbing ring, and a clip.. Similar to tieing off, the web ring wraps a few times around the rope in a pipe-hitch type of way, and clicks onto the clip to hold it in place. 

Hope that helps...
-wolf


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## ship

Stagecraft debated the various methods for safetying the rope/arbor a few months ago. Good debate went on between the “Line Lok”, twisting and the stopper knot/prusik knot. Stage Rigging handbook says 4 to 5 twists on the rope and never to rely upon it to hold an un-balanced load. Stagecraft also If I remember right had something said about the damage to the rope and equipment if the rope was too tight at the start. I always prefered the prusik knot method given a strong lock rail or other steel to tie off to. I would be using ½" spectrum dracon braided rope on 3/4" Stage Set X. Back to Stage Rigging Handbook, the synthetic rope allows for a tighter circle around the lineset for better grip. At least better grip for all but EZ-Trim linesets. I would not trust it for that rope. The book also mentions using this method alleviates stress on the tension block from the twisting. I have also seen Wolf’s websling used, both a repelling websling and the more rough commercial grade of 1" websling in a prusik. I still like rope for doing this better, I like the friction of rope more than slings, plus the easier bending in all directions.

I prefer it also because there is little to no chance of a runaway or getting beamed in the head by the bar - I used to use 3/4" sch. 40, much less if you use it to control decent, you don’t have to get it out of the way before the twisted rope gets hit by the carriage. Also the knot will allow you to slip it down in acting like a safety for out of balance loads. That’s what I used to use. This method also allows you to check the balance without untying it.


The Line Lok or “Uncle Buddy” believe it or not is not sold by Sapsis Rigging. Three is a decent drawing of it in the book of how to construct one as well as a sample of a commercial version of it, and I think also some new designs and sources for it presented on Stagecraft. What was it 9 months ago. Uncle Buddy might be a search phrase of use. I like the idea of them because they allow you to lower the line with friction, but if you need to slow it down you just raise the lever some or hook it’s lower half. Good idea up until the arbor gets too low for it’s use. That say 4' drop between arbor and tensioner unless you get a ladder to unload weights before hand can do a lot of damage.

A hoist or winch might be a final solution for locking off the lineset.


In general, I differ from Wolf in opinion of the advantages of tying off verses twisting. A knot around a rope will be more distributed than a rope lock’s pressure or cutting into it. If your rope locks don’t cut into the hand line than a prusik won’t either. On the other hand, twisting the rope can be bad for it in addition to the tensioner and other rigging parts. The tensioner is still taking the main load plus the tension load while with rope tied off to a pre-arranged to be safe place and not always the lock rail, you get a lot less load on the tensioner pully and a lot less problems with slack in the line after you max out the tensioner due to the twisting. In other words, unless you like a lot of play in your lineset, you will have to keep re-adjusting it with the twisting.

On dogging the line off, I tend to agree that it’s easier to twist a pipe around it than dog it off using rope to do the same thing as the pipe given this is what you mean. Not sure I have ever seen this method used. I have also never seen tie line used anywhere around a fly system.


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## soundman

wow thats instreasting amazing what happens outside of your little theater, we just use a 4 foot 1*1 that we called a 'snub' to prevent sliping while transffering wieght much like the one mentioned. That worked fine Untilll we stripped an electric of 'just a couple lights and some cable' and the snub like shot out and the runawy arbor was been held up by 3 people and osme one had to resnub it. It turned out that the person that put in the snub only did one twist and the 1*4 was barely been held in now we take wieght off as it is taken off the arbor like it should be.


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## wolf825

soundman said:


> wow thats instreasting amazing what happens outside of your little theater, we just use a 4 foot 1*1 that we called a 'snub' to prevent sliping while transffering wieght much like the one mentioned. That worked fine Untilll we stripped an electric of 'just a couple lights and some cable' and the snub like shot out and the runawy arbor was been held up by 3 people and osme one had to resnub it. It turned out that the person that put in the snub only did one twist and the 1*4 was barely been held in now we take wieght off as it is taken off the arbor like it should be.



Ahh..ya...well the dog only works when its wrapped at least 3 or 4 times. Less than that and it will roll and pop out. Just like a catspaw knot. FWIW, the dog shouldn't really be wood--wood is dense and can splinter and cut up your rope. smooth bottom pipe sections that you cut the threads off of, and smooth over, works..the best dog pipe I have seen tho was solid rod about 1" thick and rounded on the end--resembled a huge marlin spike. The correct and proper method for arbors and unweighting is what you said tho--unload and strip at the same time, or unload the arbor to pipe, and then strip.

wolf


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## EntRigger

*RE: Metal Line set lock*

In the second edition of the Stage Rigging Handbook of Glerum, he gives instructions on how to use it and make it in his book starting on page 150. He calls it a Line Lok, he also mentiones it can be made in a shop or bought in a store.

Hope this is the same thing,
Jason


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## The_Guest

At all the venues I've worked at I have never seen any extra hardware or anything done to secure the lines while loading other than just using the standard rope locks. Why is this? I'd like to introduce these methods to my facilities, because with the ways I've seen people operate this stuff lately is disgusting. I'm always up for more safety in show biz.


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## ship

Rope can slip in a rope lock thus my 80# figure for it’s capacity I read off stagecraft last week. This is very dependant upon the age and wear on the ropes, much less that ropes of no matter the type will tend to flatten out some if not used constantly in those areas under the head or foot block. Such flattened out ropes will tend to prevent the otherwise adjustable rope lock for the time of the season (we all do adjust our rope locks do we not?) from gripping flattened out rope the same as rope normally at rest without bearing on a pulleye. I also remember that if using a hemp line, it might start out at 3/4" but in a few years it’s more like 5/8". Same with a few other styles of cable be it with how much squeeze they develop over time within the rope no matter the size it seems to be or in general wear and stretching out. I forget the figure to how frequently it’s necessary to change a hand line but it’s something like every five years if I remember right. In any case the rope lock is insufficient to trust to hold and out of balance load thus the commercial rope locks or twisting of lumber, pipe or what ever around them in preventing movement. Otherwise the prusick knot is also useful especially as a safety when moving an out of balance load given a good solid place to tie off to. Best option is what we had way back when in high school and that was a wire rope winch with pulley that could be individually mounted to any foot block with the hook attached to the carriage so as to more safely move a load out of balance. This after one spectacular crashed arbor. At times I have also used a block and fall.


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## soundman

Every five years? I can't say that any of the high school theaters I have been in follow that, granted they are really only used for 4 or 5 shows worth compaired to a real house which may do upwards of 100 but still five years that seems a little frequent, not that I doubt you, just seems a little outlandish.


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## ship

Does sound outlandish and it could be more recommendation than anything else such as a fire link on the fire curtain or vent needing replacement every three years.
Been a few years since I pulled rope for a living but this figure might be about right. More that the rigging system needs a professional inspection every year no matter how much it's used and at that time the hand lines would be inspected for possible necessity for replacement.

Stage Rigging Handbook along with some for free off the JR Clancy website or Sapsis Rigging's tech notes would have such and more info.


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## techieman33

the "unlcle buddy" can also be called a buddy bar, and i prefer them over using a piece of pipe, they give you a lot more contol, when you let it off, you can still use it to slowly let the arbor down. They are really easy to make, i think it cost me around $3 of supplies in metals shop, and took me an hour to make. If i remember right, there rated to hold something like 250lbs. and you can put a twist in the rope with the buddy and hold more weight.


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## ricc0luke

I recently was part of the rigging for a show at Krannert Center for Performaning Arts @ U of I. Most of what we hung was light weight stuff, so we just used the 'uncle buddy' method. When we had to move the legs and the hang the heavier set peices, we used a 1" or 1 1/2" thick peice of wood which was the equivelt to a brook stick- a smooth finish with no splinters. What no one has said is that when you use that method, you are supposed to pull the floor tension block all the way up to give you the slack to twist the rope. If not, you are streching the rope unnessacary.

Just out of curiosity, do you all spike your ropes with tape or with ribbon insterted into the rope?


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## propmonkey

with our current system(its condemed) we used to just use tape, the ropes were to stiff to twist apart. with our new one coming in the summer we will use ribbons.

can someone post some pictures or links to the before mentioned equipment, im just not getting a clear image in my mind.


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## techieman33

I like flourescent gaf for spike, and then i hang a blacklight, and it's impossible to miss the spikes, and it doesn't really harm the system, as long as you take it off after the show.


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## Tweedle

I find that Bazooka Gum and Elmer's Wood Glue works to secure a lineset while loading weight. 2:1 ratio (gum to glue) .  

Actually, at FSU, we use Uncle Buddies, and axe handles to break-off handlines.

I always get confused at how to use the Uncle Buddy. So I usually just stab it with the axe handle.


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## Dcdjdrew

there acutily is a product made just for this purpose and for the life of me cannot rember the name


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## msaunier

Hey everyone,

My buddy and I are doing a Senior project for our engineering class and we have to define a problem and invent or innovate something to make it better. 

The problem we have identified is that un-balanced line sets have to be tied down and be "saftied" to the rail in case the load becomes to much for the lock to handle.

We are thinking of designing a tool the you can easily put the ropes in to secure the load. We are having trouble getting enough justification for the problem. 

Would you guys use a tool like this? How would you justify the need for this tool? Also, do you know of something that is already out there so that we do not steal any ideas or come into patent problems.

Help a brother out!

Take care guys.


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## erosing

Assuming you are talking about unbalanced lines during weighting and not that your lines are always out of weight enough to need to be safetied, see below.

This is just one example (from in-house productions), there are many slightly different ones, basically to replace a snub line, safety hitch, or prusik hitch. 

Almost everywhere I've been that has had a counterweight system has used knots or made their own "tool(s)." It's a good project, cheap, and there are a number of exacting plans available.


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## Sony

It's called an Uncle Buddy or more officially a "Line-Lok" and it's use is controversial, some people swear by it, some people swear AT it.


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## DuckJordan

Well Secoa said its okay for our space so I'll swear by it, I personally have seen how it will help when your line set can get close to 300-400 lbs over weight. Your average rope lock shouldn't hold more than 50lbs on its own. honestly the safest thing is to take a piece of steel make two twists between the two lines and tie off with a rope shackled to the rail.


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## MPowers

Along the same line as "tools" Tiffin has a product that "locks" the line set when it detects more than 50# out of balance. Clancy and Tiffin have rope locks rated for 1,000# or more out of ballance. The infamous 'Unkle Buddy", twisted bar tie-offs and just plain rigging technique such as prussics etc. are some of the many ways to solve the problem.


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## gafftaper

msaunier said:


> How would you justify the need for this tool?



Here's a good example for your justification. I believe in the end we learned that they had twisted a broom handle into the lines (another old trick) and the broom handle snapped from the weight.


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## MNicolai

gafftaper said:


> Here's a good example for your justification. I believe in the end we learned that they had twisted a broom handle into the lines (another old trick) and the broom handle snapped from the weight.



As with most catastrophic failures though, they had done more than a couple things wrong before the failure occurred.

Nothing makes up for inexperience and a lack of expertise.


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## gafftaper

Very true Mike. The world's best engineers can't design a rope locking mechanism that can defeat a blatant disregard for following standard safety protocols.


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## wiscolighting

I have used similar tools and they are very handy... many are custom made... I have also seen people think that they are reasons to stop watching the counter weight line and have either added or taken weight off the pipe causing the line to start moving on its own... they are nice tools but no excuse to not keep an eye on the rope and have someone standing right there hands on in case...


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## msaunier

Thanks everyone for the info.

I think that since you have mentioned problems with other existing tools we will approach it as an innovative project to try and make it easier for people. 

(Also, don't give me idea's on how to solve it and make a different tool because in the grading that is considered cheating) I know you guys have a lot of great ideas and after I am finished I will post what we did for you guys to look at and make comments. 

I may ask what you "prefer" as far as handling and size of the tool along the way. 

Thanks again everyone! (feel free for more justification, never enough of that!)


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## tyler.martin

a new venue that I was recently visiting had some Petzl rope grabs and some lanyards with rated points on the fly rail to connect to out of balance lines. I don't know if I like that idea.


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## blackisthenewblack

Just use a chain motor to the top of the arbor. A couple of local venues use it to aid in the lifting of awkward loads such as flats that must be loaded on the ground, etc. They have an I-beam clamp with a beam clamp installed in an engineered way, so that they can use the motor on any line set.


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## wiscolighting

blackisthenewblack said:


> Just use a chain motor to the top of the arbor. A couple of local venues use it to aid in the lifting of awkward loads such as flats that must be loaded on the ground, etc. They have an I-beam clamp with a beam clamp installed in an engineered way, so that they can use the motor on any line set.



I have used that same type of set up... it really nice when you know you are going to have a ton of people trying to pull the load out to just use a winch. You seem to be talking about attaching to the top of the arbor... I have seen a system that had a pulley that could be put anywhere on the counterweight rail under a arbor and then a winch cable run under to the bottom of the rail to the arbor through the pulley kind of sounds like a reverse of what you are talking about just this version was on the deck as opposed to yours which sounds like it was at an arboring station or in a grid. That correct?


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## chausman

blackisthenewblack said:


> Just use a chain motor to the top of the arbor. A couple of local venues use it to aid in the lifting of awkward loads such as flats that must be loaded on the ground, etc. They have an I-beam clamp with a beam clamp installed in an engineered way, so that they can use the motor on any line set.



Of course this isn't really an option for those of us with little to no budget or power for a chain motor. And, in some venues (like ours) we don't have the infrastructure to safely attach or use a chain motor safely, repeatedly.


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## blackisthenewblack

wiscolighting said:


> I have used that same type of set up... I have seen a system that had a pulley that could be put anywhere on the counterweight rail under a arbor and then a winch cable run under to the bottom of the rail to the arbor through the pulley kind of sounds like a reverse of what you are talking about just this version was on the deck as opposed to yours which sounds like it was at an arboring station or in a grid. That correct?



I Beam - in Grid
2 ton Motor from I beam to top of arbor. They currently have the Brickhouse arbors (which are awesome). The arbor has a eye bolt - I believe it is just what the purchase line connects to. Motor goes to the eye bolt and easy-peasy.

I suppose you could use a chain fall or block and tackle as need be Chase.


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## Footer

blackisthenewblack said:


> I Beam - in Grid
> 2 ton Motor from I beam to top of arbor. They currently have the Brickhouse arbors (which are awesome). The arbor has a eye bolt - I believe it is just what the purchase line connects to. Motor goes to the eye bolt and easy-peasy.
> 
> I suppose you could use a chain fall or block and tackle as need be Chase.



So, they load weight first, haul the arbor out, attach the load, then lower the arbor back in? Most systems I have seen of this nature involve bringing the pipe in, attaching the load, take the pipe out via the motor attached to the arbor, then weight is added to the arbor until the chain slacks. The only issue I have with the system you described is it is possible to underload an arbor and get an arbor stuck in the air. 

Also, they do make 120v single phase hoists.


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## tyler.martin

When we pull arbours with a chain motor, we do it due to crew limits, We have a 1.5 ton variable speed motor running off of our FOH motor distro, and we load the lineset in balance, we even have sheets of 1 inch ply laminated in stacks to fine tune the weight. in our current show we are doing this, but the load gets transferred from the system pipe to the set and the lineset becomes very arbour heavy.


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## blackisthenewblack

Footer
Your method is correct (because me trying to explain rigging over the internet always works). Sorry for the confusion. I should have said that when they load things like curtains, or flats that lay flat prior to flying. They load the item on the pipe, then chain the arbor and load it with weight. Once the calculated weight is reached, they lower the chain which is holding a bunch of weight, until the set piece is in the air and the load is balanced.


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## msaunier

Sony said:


> View attachment 7786
> 
> 
> It's called an Uncle Buddy or more officially a "Line-Lok" and it's use is controversial, some people swear by it, some people swear AT it.



Can you go into detail of why it is controversial? Is it the design? Ease of use?


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## Footer

msaunier said:


> Can you go into detail of why it is controversial? Is it the design? Ease of use?



No, its when they catastrophicly break people can get killed. This problem is kind of the build a better mousetrap thing. Really, nothing beats a piece of rope and a proper knot. 

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2


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## msaunier

Another thing that my partner and I were curious about is if any theatres have secondary locks on their line sets? For example something that is on the floor that would do the same thing as the primary lock.


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## dramatech

I worked in a theatre for a summer that had locks at the floor level and at the flyrail. During quick changes the floor guy would take the sets out and the flyman at the rail would bring them in. It took some coordination, but the show was 5 times a day on weekdays and 8 times a day on weekends, with two crews and casts on weekends. As you might have guessed, it was in a theme park.


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## DuckJordan

msaunier said:


> Another thing that my partner and I were curious about is if any theatres have secondary locks on their line sets? For example something that is on the floor that would do the same thing as the primary lock.



actually we are thinking of installing a second set at our mid bridge level, for use during shows. Allows the fly men to see over set pieces being stored in the wing and still give them a lock where they are at.


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## techieman33

DuckJordan said:


> actually we are thinking of installing a second set at our mid bridge level, for use during shows. Allows the fly men to see over set pieces being stored in the wing and still give them a lock where they are at.



A theater in my area has rope locks at the mid rail, they are almost never used though.


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## DuckJordan

We would end up using them 50/50, our stage isn't great for backstage storage, and almost always dimmer beach, or props storage inevitably ends up in a line along the rail.


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## msaunier

We are thinking more along the lines of a claw type mechanism that would clamp onto the pully and push the rope into the pully and make the tip of the clamp a rubber material. The down-side is that it isn't moveable and it isn't a tool that can be used anywhere. Just doing some brainstorming and throwing out ideas! 

Thanks again everyone! Really appreciate it.


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## porkchop

I work at a theatre at home that more or less has one set of locks at stage level and one more full set and the mid rail. They are both standard rope brakes though and are not made for more than 50 pounds out of weight.


msaunier said:


> We are thinking more along the lines of a claw type mechanism that would clamp onto the pully and push the rope into the pully and make the tip of the clamp a rubber material. The down-side is that it isn't moveable and it isn't a tool that can be used anywhere.



That sounds to me like something to me that might damage the rope if used very often. Since you said you have to figure this out yourself I will say just remember that a Klein Haven’s® Grip (a.k.a. porkchop, no relation) works great but will cause serious damage to aircraft cable over time.


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## derekleffew

techieman33 said:


> A theater in my area has rope locks at the mid rail, they are almost never used though.




porkchop said:


> I work at a theatre at home that more or less has one set of locks at stage level and one more full set and the mid rail.


I've never worked in such a theatre. But it seems to me from the houses I've seen, they keep ALL the locks at either deck OR fly floor open. I think it would get very confusing if some were locked and others open, in both locations.

dramatech said:


> I worked in a theatre for a summer that had locks at the floor level and at the flyrail. During quick changes the floor guy would take the sets out and the flyman at the rail would bring them in. ... theme park.


Sure, after the 1000th show, it becomes automatic, muscle memory takes over.


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## porkchop

derekleffew said:


> I've never worked in such a theatre. But it seems to me from the houses I've seen, they keep ALL the locks at either deck OR fly floor open. I think it would get very confusing if some were locked and others open, in both locations.



You sir are correct. I never said it was a good system, I just said it was the system they had. As a side note, unless the particular show requires otherwise during the run the locks on the mid rail are left open. On the other hand during a rig call when you have crew members at both levels it's not uncommon to have both brakes closed as well as hands on the line at times (again not the best way, just their way).


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## lwinters630

A lot of discussion seems to be focused on using this proposed tool to lock an out of balance line set. The head block, steel cables and arbors can hold about 1000# however the point is that the line (not just the lock) is not rated nearly that high.

Assuming this tool is being used as a safety devise as to not rely on the lock, it would need to be able to release and re-grip quickly.

A tool in the wrong inexperienced hands IE high schools, will result in death.


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## MPowers

lwinters630 said:


> ........ The head block, steel cables and arbors can hold about 1000# however the point is that the line (not just the lock) is not rated nearly that high....... this tool is being used as a safety devise as to not rely on the lock, it would need to be able to release and re-grip quickly.......A tool in the wrong inexperienced hands ........will result in death.



Ummmmm, your math needs a touch of re-figuring. 

First, head blocks, are rated far higher than 1,000#. They are manufactured and rated for the loads of the particular line set they are intended for. A standard 6 line head block from a major manufacturer for example:


> Single Purchase 12" 6 Line - Upright Head Block 8-5/8"Diameter Cast Iron Sheave Equipped with Tapered roller bearings
> 3/4" Rope Diameter
> 6 [email protected] 1/4"
> Recommended Working Load 3000Lbs



Second, Wire rope, A.K.A. Galvanized Aircraft Cable (GAC) or Small Diameter Specialty Cable is also sized for the purpose. The most common GAC size for manual counterweight systems is 1/4" with a breaking strength of 7,000# and a rated WLL of 875#. With a minimum of 4 lift lines per line set, that is a total load capacity of 3,500# (some systems installed prior to 1960 and not upgraded to match current standard rigging practice, may have only 3 lift lines.)

Third, Although a standard rope lock is intentionally limited to a 50# load holding capacity, both J.R. Clancy and Tiffin have models rated at 1,500#. 

Fourth, 3/4" Multiline II, arguably the most common purchase line in the U.S., has a WLL of 1,505#. Stage Set X is rated at 2,514#. Those are WLL not breaking strength. 

Fifth, the tool being discussed is intended as a safety device, NOT a rope lock. It is intended to secure a line set ONLY while loading or un-loading, NOT during normal use. Therefore it has absolutely no need to

> release and re-grip quickly.


. 

Last, I agree with the concept that any tool, in the wrong, inexperienced or untrained hands, can be dangerous. Stage rigging, especially what the public calls "Fly" systems are inherently dangerous under the best of circumstances. Theatre/Entertainment Industry is the only industry in the world that allows lifting, moving and suspending loads above people, i.e. performers, presenters and audience members. The fact that we, the industry, and the national education program, entrusts these systems to administrators, English teachers, choir directors et al, with absolutely no training or education in their use; mystifies me. Any device, program or inventions that improves the safety of rigging systems, without completely compromising their use, has my stamp of approval.


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## JChenault

This is outside of my area of expertise, But at LDI I believe Clancy was showing a head block which would auto-lock in the event of a runaway. 

Anyone sen one of these in the wild or have opinions about the product?


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## MPowers

I have indeed seen the product, but only in the demo version. The concept is excellent and a product that is long past due in the industry. At least one other major manufacturer, that I have close contact with, liked the idea so much that they are in the process of developing a similar product. Of course they are also working on staying away from any patent infringements while they are at it. 

As for the Clancy product, talking with one of their engineers, in October, they expected it to actually be on the market by this year's USITT or sooner. However, at that time it was still in the beta +1 stage, there still some things to improve on. 

Some unanswered questions are:

What happens in the real world when the unit is activated? Is there a shock load imparted on the system and if so, what are the results of that shockloading on the other components of the system or the building structure. 

The JRC head block is a head block, not a traction drive pulley. If the system is in motion, how fast is out of ballance condition detected and how rapidly is it stopped? If it locks up instantly will the lines breifly slip, effectively "sawing" the grooves of the block? 

How many times can a unit be activated before it needs to be replaced? Note: if you experience enough run-aways to need an answer to this question there is a major problem with your system and/or your loading proceedure.


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## BillConnerFASTC

If the tension block or welsh block is today's typical such block that is mounted to the "T" or "J" bar guides, those guides and that mounting have not traditionally been designed for the out of balance loads that an Uncle Buddy tool would put on it. Blocks that are mounted to the floor and don't slide, or perhaps if a manufacturer has done the engineering to show the guides are indeed strong enough, would of course change this. The purchase line is plenty strong enough to hold most arbors hanging on it as are the head blocks. I much prefer designing and installing the lockrail with snubbing links to tie off the out of balance load.

Jury is still out on the JRC SureStop head block, IMHO.


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## What Rigger?

tyler.martin said:


> a new venue that I was recently visiting had some Petzl rope grabs and some lanyards with rated points on the fly rail to connect to out of balance lines. I don't know if I like that idea.



Not so sure that Petzl makes a rope grab for this application. Are you talking about a Croll toothed ascender? An I'D? Or an ASAP? What type of rope was in their system? Very curious to know.


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## TheTheaterGeek

My lighting advisor at my school is adamant that the Line Lok from the Stage Rigging Handbook doesn't work. Yet I have heard reports that they can easily hold double or more what a snub line can.

I want to make one.
But before that.
Do they work?


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## TheTheaterGeek

wiscolighting said:


> I have used similar tools and they are very handy... many are custom made... I have also seen people think that they are reasons to stop watching the counter weight line and have either added or taken weight off the pipe causing the line to start moving on its own... they are nice tools but no excuse to not keep an eye on the rope and have someone standing right there hands on in case...




Wouldn't that require them to be standing under the line-set during loading?


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## TheTheaterGeek

Footer said:


> No, its when they catastrophicly break people can get killed. This problem is kind of the build a better mousetrap thing. Really, nothing beats a piece of rope and a proper knot.
> 
> Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2



Is these things breaking a common thing?

We want to use them to hold our electrics during hang. Never more than maybe 150 out of weight tops. 

Is this a dangerous option?


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## Footer

TheTheaterGeek said:


> Is these things breaking a common thing?
> 
> We want to use them to hold our electrics during hang. Never more than maybe 150 out of weight tops.
> 
> Is this a dangerous option?



Yes. It is dangerous. Also, during hang you should have all the weight dropped from the arbor anyway.... In my view there is NEVER a time when and electric should be arbor heavy or out of weight for that matter. These methods should really only be used when hanging an item like a soft good or hard scenery that can not have the full weight on the pipe until it is in the air. Electrics on the other hand can be hung while the pipe is at working height/bottomed out then weighted.


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## TheTheaterGeek

Footer said:


> Yes. It is dangerous. Also, during hang you should have all the weight dropped from the arbor anyway.... In my view there is NEVER a time when and electric should be arbor heavy or out of weight for that matter. These methods should really only be used when hanging an item like a soft good or hard scenery that can not have the full weight on the pipe until it is in the air. Electrics on the other hand can be hung while the pipe is at working height/bottomed out then weighted.



I realize that I made it sound like we were stripping the E and leaving weight on the arbor. Its more a process of "morphing" the rep plot into the show plot. We never change the pipe weight by more than maybe 50-100#at most, usually it is only a brick out of weight. Does that change the circumstances?


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## Footer

TheTheaterGeek said:


> My lighting advisor at my school is adamant that the Line Lok from the Stage Rigging Handbook doesn't work. Yet I have heard reports that they can easily hold double or more what a snub line can.
> 
> I want to make one.
> But before that.
> Do they work?


How much welding have you done? How much structural design have you done? 

I have flown people 40' off deck on my welds... and I still won't make one of these. A properly done snub line does nothing more then keep the wraps of the purchase line together... and that is where the real holding power is. You add that to bull lines on the deck with meat on them and you have a safe-er situation. I have seen uncle buddies go flying across fly floors before because they get over loaded or more likely not installed right.


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## Footer

TheTheaterGeek said:


> I realize that I made it sound like we were stripping the E and leaving weight on the arbor. Its more a process of "morphing" the rep plot into the show plot. We never change the pipe weight by more than maybe 50-100#at most, usually it is only a brick out of weight. Does that change the circumstances?



Nope. Drop the arbor. Do your moves. Reload the arbor. Simple. Once again, I see no reason you should EVER have an electric arbor heavy. If you are doing it right you should be able to do your entire hang and loading of the arbor with the rope lock open.


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## TheTheaterGeek

Footer said:


> How much welding have you done? How much structural design have you done?
> 
> I have flown people 40' off deck on my welds... and I still won't make one of these. A properly done snub line does nothing more then keep the wraps of the purchase line together... and that is where the real holding power is. You add that to bull lines on the deck with meat on them and you have a safe-er situation. I have seen uncle buddies go flying across fly floors before because they get over loaded or more likely not installed right.




I've been welding since high school metal shop where I got four years of instruction. so just shy of a decade. 

When it comes to structural design, I am more of a as needed problem solver.


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## Footer

TheTheaterGeek said:


> I've been welding since high school metal shop where I got four years of instruction. so just shy of a decade.
> 
> When it comes to structural design, I am more of a as needed problem solver.



Then nope, your not qualified to do this even if it was a good idea... Listen to your professor.


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## TheTheaterGeek

Footer said:


> Nope. Drop the arbor. Do your moves. Reload the arbor. Simple. Once again, I see no reason you should EVER have an electric arbor heavy. If you are doing it right you should be able to do your entire hang and loading of the arbor with the rope lock open.




Interesting, I am admittedly not the most experienced rigger.

Honestly this is me trying to take a step in showing our faculty here that students can have ideas and execute on them independently I even hand drafted the plans to present the thing.


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## TheTheaterGeek

Footer said:


> Then nope, your not qualified to do this even if it was a good idea... Listen to your professor.



Im sorry if I offended.

Im still interested in the facts of the thing. 

So, they are unsafe, Is it because they don't work or because they are easily misused(which i guess means don't work in another way)?


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## Footer

TheTheaterGeek said:


> Interesting, I am admittedly not the most experienced rigger.
> 
> Honestly this is me trying to take a step in showing our faculty here that students can have ideas and execute on them independently I even hand drafted the plans to present the thing.



Maybe start working on a new platforming system or how to use steel flats. Draw up plans for a new sheet good or stick lumber rack using steel.


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## Footer

Both actually. In order to get the thing on you have to put it under tension. If the line does slip it can be thrown off.... basically sending the thing spinning at whoever is on the rail. There is also a lot of force being put on the pivot on the piece. I prefer this over a broom handle stuck in the rope but a simple snub line does this easier, safer, and quicker. Choke the rail, wrap the purchase lines together, do a quick rolling hitch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolling_hitch), and you are done.


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## StradivariusBone

I've found it sometimes makes sense to take advantage of the fact that our lock rail is about 20' above stage and our loading bridge is ~20' above that. As such we are able to adjust weight on the arbor in the middle of the travel as opposed to the top or bottom. I've been told (and from experience feel as though) this is a safer way to hang heavy soft goods and tall pieces since we can attach the tall pieces when they are upright and adjust the weight of the arbor for the soft goods as more weight goes onto the batten. It doesn't always make sense, depending on the size of the piece we are hanging, but it does prevent a wider margin out of balance. What is the general experience in this type of setup (single purchase btw).


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## Footer

StradivariusBone said:


> I've found it sometimes makes sense to take advantage of the fact that our lock rail is about 20' above stage and our loading bridge is ~20' above that. As such we are able to adjust weight on the arbor in the middle of the travel as opposed to the top or bottom. I've been told (and from experience feel as though) this is a safer way to hang heavy soft goods and tall pieces since we can attach the tall pieces when they are upright and adjust the weight of the arbor for the soft goods as more weight goes onto the batten. It doesn't always make sense, depending on the size of the piece we are hanging, but it does prevent a wider margin out of balance. What is the general experience in this type of setup (single purchase btw).



Whatever you can do to midigate an out of weight condition is great. When loading in or out would always rather have something pipe heavy so I can control where it lands. I used to be the welder for several rep theatres... and was usually there when anything I built went into the air. I always called it low knowing that I could bring it back in if it did not leave the deck.


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## BillConnerFASTC

Plus uncle buddies put forces into the t-bar they are not designed for. Don't use them is my strong recommendation.


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## porkchop

The problem, and why they still get used from time to time, is that often they do work... until they don't anymore that is and with something like this that is hand made and in no way properly designed by a qualified engineer there's no way of predicting when and/or under what conditions it won't work anymore. When rigging you want to have a very good idea of exactly what the forces and limitations on your system are, and with something like a line lok there's just no way to know. Then you're just falling into the "it's worked every other time" danger area.


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## cmckeeman

BillConnerASTC said:


> Plus uncle buddies put forces into the t-bar they are not designed for. Don't use them is my strong recommendation.


Maybe my understanding of how they are used is flawed, but how do they do this?


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## BillConnerFASTC

If you twist the handlines, it puts much greater force on the welsh or take up block than it is rated for when it is the T. I didn't include the full "comment" but this does apply to T-bar systems with the block attached to the T, not to systems where the block is anchored to the floor, but those do sometimes - or often - permit adjustment up and down and I wouldn't trust that to resist the forces of twisting the ropes. I've moved really big things by twisting rope in a similar fashion and its a lot of force in a hurry.

PS - Maybe not clear but its the T (or J or whatever) guide that is the concern primarily.


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## StradivariusBone

BillConnerASTC said:


> If you twist the handlines, it puts much greater force on the welsh or take up block than it is rated for when it is the T. I didn't include the full "comment" but this does apply to T-bar systems with the block attached to the T, not to systems where the block is anchored to the floor, but those do sometimes - or often - permit adjustment up and down and I wouldn't trust that to resist the forces of twisting the ropes. I've moved really big things by twisting rope in a similar fashion and its a lot of force in a hurry.
> 
> PS - Maybe not clear but its the T (or J or whatever) guide that is the concern primarily.



Question- So in this case the prussik wouldn't do that same force since it's transferring the pull of the arbor to the rail instead of the tension block? So if you twist the handlines with a broom handle or metal rod and tie off wouldn't it exert a similar force as an Uncle Buddy?


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## BillConnerFASTC

StradivariusBone said:


> Question- So in this case the prussik wouldn't do that same force since it's transferring the pull of the arbor to the rail instead of the tension block? So if you twist the handlines with a broom handle or metal rod and tie off wouldn't it exert a similar force as an Uncle Buddy?



Yes I'd group broomsticks, etc. here - all basically turnbuckles or tourniquets.

An arbor can be safely held to an anchor point that is designed for the load, like the lock rail if it is designed for it or even the welsh block if it's mounting is designed for it. T-bar and it's commonly aluminum cousins are, to the best of my knowledge and according to some of the best and brightest in the business, not designed for those forces, which if you look at it you realize are bending forces on that fairly small T-bar - like 1 1/2 X 1 1/2 X 3/16. In my work, I put an eye on the bottom of the arbor rated for the full load so there is a good anchor there, and have the rail rated for upward forces equal (but NOT every lineset all at once please).


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## gafftaper

I have a really nicely made uncle buddy here in the theater left by the previous theater manager, who was a wizard with metal work. My electrics are motorized so I only use it while loading weight for hanging drops or if I need to bring a traveler down to the deck to work on it for some reason. 

@BillConnerASTC are you saying that they should never be used even for light duty? Not to argue with you, I truly am curious about this... Jay Glerum liked them enough to print drawings of them in "Stage Rigging Handbook" so that you can make your own so that's a pretty strong endorsement on his part. Perhaps what you are describing is something we have learned in recent years that wasn't known when he printed the book?


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## BillConnerFASTC

That is basically what Jack Suesse explained. I'll try to get an engineer to weigh in.


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## BillConnerFASTC

OK. I asked my engineer friend (yes - he can lawfully put "PE" in his signature - not just a super theatre tech) and he replied:

"I have twisted my share of hand lines using just a broomstick and the Uncle Buddy is just a more elegant means of doing the same thing. In either case the imbalance load goes into the floating floor block instead of the rail. Floor blocks are typically not designed to take as much as the head lock or the rail so there is potential for overload if the set is seriously out of weight. I know of a couple failures that have occurred over the years due due to (gross)overloads pulling the floating blocks out of the tee bank. For substantial loads I would recommend using a capstan or a prussick to the rail instead. "

So I still take the "just say no" . Maybe, just maybe, some of us are so good that we would never ever twist it too much, but by example and by leaving it where less "qualified" individuals might try it, don't. If there weren't other acceptable means, I might be more tolerant, but there are.

PS - and if that from one major company is not enough, this from another stage rigging expert: 

"I know for a fact that they will slip very suddenly and violently at about 400 pounds. Not a pretty sight or feeling. I have seen a line set creep when they are used and the loader is dropping counterweights onto the arbor. That does not instill confidence their ability to hold a load. I do not like how the load is transferred to the floor block shoes that were never designed to hold that kind of load."

QED


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## MikeJ

Uncle Buddies work. As with all things, they need to be used correctly, and there may be better solutions depending on the use. This is why people are trained, and not just anybody can run a fly rail. Caveats and alternatives have been posted above. If your professor simply said that they don't work, with no explanation, then they have done you a disservice. In school, of all places, people should be encouraged to ask WHY. Footer was not actually asking if you were qualified, he was simply being condescending. In my reading of ControlBooth, BillConnerASTC seems to know a lot about fly systems and rigging, so his advice should carry a decent amount of weight. Bill, thanks for your input, and your willingness to consult other professional and experts, in order to form a well informed opinion on the matter. I hope that others take note of your thorough research and humble attitude.


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## soundguy99

Hi Guys,
Just wondering about what people use to lock their linesets from moving in a heavily unbalanced situations either when loading or unloading, or over weight situations where you don`t line set to move.
I realize during operation you have the actual line sets locks usually done from the fly rail, and that they should be properly balanced during operation. 
Thats being said however, sometime there are those rare situations where youre dealing with an situation when your loading or unloading a pipe with extremely heavy loads (ie 700lbs +/-) and you do not want that pipe to move.
Or you could have an out of balanced situation (ie 100 or 200lbs +/-), that you are unable to balance for what ever reason, but don`t need to operate it, just secure it or lock it down so the pipe will not move. Typically electrics, movers set peices, that are going to be either heavy during the load and unload process or out of balanced situation that may not have to be moved. 
I have seen some crazy creative "modified solutions) , to this problem over the last few years that the various touring flymen use, that may or Not be "legal".
I am just wondering what other people do when they encounter these issues.
Is there such thing as an actual Lineset lock besides the operational lock that you can purchase to make it more secure and safe during the loading and unloading, or do you just use the operating ope lock, and load and unload from the loading gallery.
Just something I have seen from these flymen from traveling productions that come through, just though what others do.
Any thoughts are greatly appreciated,
Thanks,
soundguy


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## BillConnerFASTC

To soundguy 99:

First, 7000 pounds is not a normal counterweight lineset load and the basic hardware used in rigging is not designed for that load, so "really" qualified people are required.

With a loading bridge, it should be possible to keep most sets balanced all the time so do that. If the batten is at low trim, its usually safe to load it and then load weights, as the arbor is against a stop.

Without a loading bridge, and out of balance loads larger than a hundred pounds or so, maybe 75 per OSHA, you really need a bull winch or similar means to mechanically control the out of balance load.

For just locking a load, the lock rail designed for the load - not all are - or other anchor points, and a rope tied to hand lines is the normal acceptable practice.

Sounds like an in house training day could be what you need.


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## LavaASU

BillConnerASTC said:


> To soundguy 99:
> 
> First, 7000 pounds is not a normal counterweight lineset load and the basic hardware used in rigging is not designed for that load, so "really" qualified people are required.
> 
> With a loading bridge, it should be possible to keep most sets balanced all the time so do that. If the batten is at low trim, its usually safe to load it and then load weights, as the arbor is against a stop.
> 
> Without a loading bridge, and out of balance loads larger than a hundred pounds or so, maybe 75 per OSHA, you really need a bull winch or similar means to mechanically control the out of balance load.
> 
> For just locking a load, the lock rail designed for the load - not all are - or other anchor points, and a rope tied to hand lines is the normal acceptable practice.
> 
> Sounds like an in house training day could be what you need.



7000lbs exceeds the capacity of ANY fly system I've seen by at least 2. Yes, there are ways to marry linesets (not about to get into that) but require extremely qualified riggers. However marrying 4+ linesets is stupid and dangerous. Get an engineer (PE variety) to determine ratings of beams, get some chain motors and truss and have a qualified and competent rigger rig them. They'll happily hold 7000lbs and are designed to be used that way.


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## sk8rsdad

[HIJACK]
@soundguy99 said

soundguy99 said:


> (ie 700lbs +/-


, not 700*0* lb. Somebody added a zero.
[/HIJACK]


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## Footer

soundguy99 said:


> Hi Guys,
> extremely heavy loads (ie 700lbs +/-) and you do not want that pipe to move.




BillConnerASTC said:


> To soundguy 99:
> 
> First, 7000 pounds is not a normal counterweight lineset load and the basic hardware used in rigging is not designed for that load, so "really" qualified people are required.



Bill... it was 700#, not 7,000#. Not sure where you got the extra zero there. 

Out of weight situations do happen especially when loading in Broadway style scenery. For an electric you should never be arbor heavy unless you are hanging fixtures longer then the low trim of the batten. This is one reason I like to see electrics low trim at 4' compared to the usual 3'. When I welded for a regional house I regularly built 1000# pieces that had to fly. These pieces where usually 25' or taller and were attached when laying on their back or face. You brought the pipe in, attached the load, snubbed the lineset, attach multiple bull lines, and got 10-15 of your closest friends to hang on the pipe while it was being loaded. After it was loaded everyone grabbed a bull line and let out the pipe while others walked the piece downstage or upstage. Repeat the same thing on the out. And got forbid you called the weight low and have to bring the thing back in halfway into the lift. General rule here is that the arbor is only loaded when the load is attached to the pipe and unloaded before the pipe is cleared. Even if the piece does take off (as long as the rigging on the piece does not fail) it will come into balance before it runs away. This type of operation should only be done by people who know what they are doing. However, it is standard issue stuff in any broadway style show.


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## BillConnerFASTC

LavaASU said:


> 7000lbs exceeds the capacity of ANY fly system I've seen by at least 2. Yes, there are ways to marry linesets (not about to get into that) but require extremely qualified riggers. However marrying 4+ linesets is stupid and dangerous. Get an engineer (PE variety) to determine ratings of beams, get some chain motors and truss and have a qualified and competent rigger rig them. They'll happily hold 7000lbs and are designed to be used that way.


It does depend on what you include in "fly system". I have more than a few projects with 5000 to 25000 pond loads on rigging, but granted only a few not fixed. I think of lighting bridges and acoustic shells. A few walls that are over 5000 on manual counterweight. Pretty remarkable how easily a person can move 5000 pounds without assistance.


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## soundguy99

Hi guys,
I appreciate the reply's.
Allot of of those practices and procedures you mentioned we do have in place, (ie loading the pipe before we add the counter weights ect), so we are not new to how to load and unload these pipes by any means.
My question was intended more to see if there was other practices that we weren`t doing that may help for those rare occasions where youre dealing with heavy loads.
Marrying 2 pipes together we generally don`t do that often but we do occasionally. We do also use hockey stocks or as some people talked about using pipe and put in between the hand line sets and twist the hand lines, but as i have been told before by a rigger when you do that any in balance in the line set gets transferred to the floor block, and in extremeness out of balance situations cause the floor block to fail. Of course it also stretches the rope.
I have also seen tying the arbor to the T rail, and I should look at getting some extra rope cut especially for that, so its on hand.
Also A large component to the arbor capacity is the actual physical siize of the arbor., as our bridge empty is at least 400lbs but iis also on a motor.
As you have point out, we also do have 4 acoustic shell roof pieces on abors with loads well over 600 - 700lbs, and is perfectly balanced. 
So saying 700lbs is not a normal arbor load is a bit in accurate,
In Either case my question was more about other peoples practices of tying down an arbor for those rare occasions.
Although we have had professional riggers come through and shown us things and had training sessions with us, we are all still learning, and as I found each theater in different areas might have slightly different practices in how they do things, so its places like this forum to inquire and learn about how other places might do things slightly differently.
Definitely there is a few things you reminded me about here that I will have to look into.
Thanks for the advice,
soundguy_99


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## BillConnerFASTC

700 is not unusual, as most sets I specify are 1600 to 1800 pounds, and shelkscand electrics in the 2200-2500 pound range.

Just attach a 6' or so between at least every other rope lock and mnostr of the job is done and easy.


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