# Pit Lift with Orchestra



## StradivariusBone (Apr 23, 2014)

High school doing a musical with a 20ish piece orchestra on a pit elevator set down about 12' or about 2/3 of its travel below the deck.

Last night during a dress I get summoned to the stage because of a lift malfunction, I was confused because I was under the impression that pit was stationary. The band director (who has a key) raised it during a break and when they were lowering it tripped a sensor on the astragal tape or door and stopped. I immediately locked out the lift and explained in no uncertain terms that it would not be moving any more. 

My question to the board is, is it unsafe to move a pit orchestra (with people) in that manner? They are packed on it like sardines and there's no shortage of stand lights and other wires that could get caught during a move, not to mention if someone's foot were to get caught between the wall and pit floor. 

Apparently they've moved it in the past years during beginning, intermission, and end during shows and "they've always done it that way." 

I've provided two stair units up to the pit from the basement and there's easy access via a stairwell to that level of the building. Am I over-reacting?


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## themuzicman (Apr 23, 2014)

I would never ever move a pit during a performance. When I am doing a musical, once the pit is in place, the pit is in place. On tours, once my gear is on the center of the pit, the pit lowers. Once it is all clear and back on the center during a load out, it raises. 

Just because they have always done it this way, doesn't mean they should do it. With all the cable runs I typically throw into pits, it is neither a safe nor smart idea to move it.


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## MNicolai (Apr 23, 2014)

Seems to make sense that cables could tangled into something. Mostly I think it's tacky though if at intermission of a show, an entire orchestra's equipment is elevated to stage level for the duration of intermission.

From a safety perspective, I'd be concerned that in the 2/3 position, that there's adequate fall protection (a railing of some sort) to prevent someone from taking a dive into the basement level. As for moving, I don't like to routinely test those sensors just for giggles, but if everything is in working order as it should be and the astragal pressure tape sensors are adequately located in the potential crush zones, then that's a normal part of the lift's operation that shouldn't present a hazard.


Don't get me wrong, I still disagree with the operation of the lift for that purpose, but my concerns are that it looks artistically tacky as stereotypical high school theater, not that it presents a clear danger to the passengers on the lift.


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## SteveB (Apr 23, 2014)

We raise/lower all the time with musicians on the pit. In addition to loading/unloading musicians, we need to allow the conductor to gain access to the stage for bows. We position a stair unit in the pit for this to happen. Normally the pit is lowered to a height where the conductors neck is about level with the pit railing that separates the pit form the orchestra seating (play level). The conductor is typically on a 8" or so high podium, so the floor of the pit is probably down about 6-7 ft. Thus without building a larger stair unit, we use a 3 step, then raise the pit till the conductor can get up the stairs and onto stage for bows. Sometimes he/she has a difficult time winding their way through a pit full of musicians. 

We also have no access for the musicians to the pit unless we lower 13 ft to the under-stage basement storage room, thus load musicians, raise at 5 minutes to show, lower again for intermission, raise again to play level and for as many acts as needed, then back to -13 ft. to get the musicians off at end of show. 

In all cases we have 2 prop people supervising, one below in the basement and one on deck running the lift controls and observing to make sure nothing is at the pit edges to get stuck. Prior to the pit access doors closing, the basement prop person also ascertains that nothing is going to catch (as best they can - it's usually telling musicians to be aware). 

Our new theater, with 2 lifts, is being designed (in theory) with access doors that allow musicians access while the pit is at playing height.

In any event and on our older pit, there are edge strips at every point where something that might get caught, such as in the pit wall recessed guide tracks, or doors, as well as interlocks on the access doors themselves, that would stop the pit if something gets caught or a door were to be opened. The doors, as per NYC code, cannot be opened except from while on the pit, which then triggers the safety cut-off.


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## StradivariusBone (Apr 23, 2014)

There is a fence on the upstage side of the pit platform, two sections were removed to facilitate the stair units, but no one sits with their backs to this areas.


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## venuetech (Apr 23, 2014)

StradivariusBone said:


> There is a fence on the upstage side of the pit platform, two sections were removed to facilitate the stair units, but no one sits with their backs to this areas.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I think Mike was concerned about the fall hazard from the stage into the pit.

in my mind it is dependent on if the operator and musicians can follow the training/procedures. We have locked it at performance level for some productions when the director would not take the time to make the necessary checks. after the musicians have left, the pit was raised to stage level for the evening till the next performance.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Apr 23, 2014)

Read the draft standard from PLASA. Many tough questions. Either of the two current manufactures say no transporting people. Most are not designed with the features necessary, like egress in case of a fire, or fall protection at all intermediate levels, to be ridden. A very complicated subject but I recommend unless you are really certain you know what you are doing that you not permit riding.


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## MNicolai (Apr 23, 2014)

venuetech said:


> I think Mike was concerned about the fall hazard from the stage into the pit.
> 
> in my mind it is dependent on if the operator and musicians can follow the training/procedures. We have locked it at performance level for some productions when the director would not take the time to make the necessary checks. after the musicians have left, the pit was raised to stage level for the evening till the next performance.



Mostly my concern is from the pit down to a lower level. If the pit is all the way down, usually there's a railing at that level, but at an intermediary level, it's possible it could be just an opening someone could stumble through.

Bill Conner raises a good point about egress from an intermediary level. I'd be less concerned if multiple, temporary step units were located on either end of the pit for egress. I certainly wouldn't want them riding the pit with no supplemental forms of entry/exit. In the event of anything, you don't want the only way for people to get out to be having to climb their way or jump to the lower the level. You also don't want everyone bottle-necked at the single available set of steps to a higher level.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Apr 24, 2014)

Here's a tip or idea. Test the shear protection. I use the broomstick test. Put a broomstick down, hanging over the edge, and run the lift up. If the broomstick breaks, protection fails. (If everyone here did this, I wonder how many would have no protection at all.) Check at the ends or edges. Check at door heads and top of guide rails. You can use a piece of 1/2" EMT. Its not scientific but gives you a quick test.


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## StradivariusBone (Apr 24, 2014)

MNicolai said:


> Mostly my concern is from the pit down to a lower level. If the pit is all the way down, usually there's a railing at that level, but at an intermediary level, it's possible it could be just an opening someone could stumble through.



I see what you're saying, there is a skirt of 1/4" plywood about 14" around the base of the platform and the gap between the basement floor and the bottom of that skirt is about 18". We have safety chains between the vast majority of the opening and placed music stands to deter traffic where the step units are in the way of the chain. The way it is, somebody could get down there if they really wanted too, but there's no way anyone would accidentally fall under it. 


MNicolai said:


> I'd be less concerned if multiple, temporary step units were located on either end of the pit for egress. I certainly wouldn't want them riding the pit with no supplemental forms of entry/exit. In the event of anything, you don't want the only way for people to get out to be having to climb their way or jump to the lower the level. You also don't want everyone bottle-necked at the single available set of steps to a higher level.



There are two stairs from the pit into the basement. The doors to the audience level are about 3-4' above the pit floor in its current setup and wouldn't be sufficient egress in this configuration. I originally wanted it higher so they could use those, but this was the compromise made after the rehearsal incident. There is only one stairwell leading to the pit basement, but it is about 4' wide. The newer PAC's in our county utilize two stairs, one on each side of the basement, which I was told is part of the building code since our's was built. 


BillConnerASTC said:


> Here's a tip or idea. Test the shear protection. I use the broomstick test. Put a broomstick down, hanging over the edge, and run the lift up. If the broomstick breaks, protection fails.



I know our astragal sensors work, but there are only sensors along the bottom edge of the stage floor/pit basement ceiling and on the bottom of the pit platform itself. The downstage edge of the pit has no sensors other than the ones in the door. It would be exceedingly easy for someone to stand too close to the concrete wall on the downstage edge and have their shoe get pulled in between the pit floor and the wall. I've seen it happen with gear before. There are also a few spots on the sides of the pit where there is an opening masked with a rubber gasket curtain for the track attachment. There's nothing preventing anyone or thing from getting tangled up in there.

I appreciate all the insight. I think under proper supervision and attention to detail a pit could be moved during a performance if the properly trained individuals were available and alert, but I don't think it's worth the risk if you aren't completely confident in all the people involved to do it proper. I just wanted to verify that I wasn't overreacting to the situation by not allowing it to move with kids and gear on board.

Thanks!

-ED


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## StradivariusBone (Apr 24, 2014)

BillConnerASTC said:


> Read the draft standard from PLASA. Many tough questions. Either of the two current manufactures say no transporting people.



Do you have documentation that speaks to that effect? I searched Gala's website, but could not find anything.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Apr 24, 2014)

Both have said that at user training I have observed and both have said during committee meeting - for the PLASA standard - that that is their policy. I'd have to search to find on in print. We debated a lot in early committee meetings because we know people ride them. I had to drop out for a health issue and have not rejoined so don't know what it says now actually.

PS - manufacturers may have changed too since I last discussed this with them.


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## StradivariusBone (Apr 24, 2014)

I found some of the notes on the PLASA website, most seem related to fall protection/prevention. One went as far to suggest the guy holding the pickle needs to ride the lift to oversee its operation.

The manual for our lift also seems to center on mitigating fall risks, no mention of riding either for or against. We had a few elevator contractors come through recently as a part of the bid process for county maintenance of all elevators and all said they would service it, but were unclear as to the requirement for inspection. 

Apparently Florida does not require the little inspection certificate that all other lifts/elevators must display. 


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## BillConnerFASTC (Apr 24, 2014)

A few states reference these but there is no national standard yet and none likely to be adopted into law. I estimate the majority of pit lifts in the US are not covered by any laws.


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## Christopher Cook (May 9, 2014)

I have a Gala Lift system in my venue. In the State of Michigan, you may not at anytime move the lift with people on the "car." it is strictly a cargo mover. I'm lucky that my administration backs me on that. I do think that they had to sign something that states that the lift would be used for cargo only.
I'll look at my paper work.


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## firewater88 (Jun 4, 2014)

BillConnerASTC said:


> Here's a tip or idea. Test the shear protection. I use the broomstick test. Put a broomstick down, hanging over the edge, and run the lift up. If the broomstick breaks, protection fails. (If everyone here did this, I wonder how many would have no protection at all.) Check at the ends or edges. Check at door heads and top of guide rails. You can use a piece of 1/2" EMT. Its not scientific but gives you a quick test.



I have a Gala lift as well, a little smaller than Chris' and mine was explicitly stated no riders from the get go. I also don't have any skirting under mine when in the up position, which was a factor in having it a rider or not I was told. After a recent production, we packed all the gear on the pit to bring it up and I did not see a black drum rug fall hang over the edge and got sandwiched between the lift and the house level edge filler piece and completely sheared the board off. There is no sensor on that side, only a 1x6 with a beveled edge on the bottom meant to bumper something. Well that could easily have been a hand, finger, foot. You get the idea.

I am also the only one in the building who has a key. Recommended by the state inspector by the way. One time a new inspector came in when I was not there and the head custodian knew where the spare keys were locked up at and decided to do the test without me there. Well, in MI, the lift has to go up about an inch before it goes down (it clears a brake release- think quick grip lock). Well when he ran it down, it went up, freaked him out and he released the button thinking he had the wrong button pushed. Check and pushed down again. Guess what, it went up. This happened three times, then, well, you guessed it, it went into over travel and locked out. He called me and told me what he did and I told him to call the elevator company to get it fixed. The sad part was the inspector at the time didn't know about it either. That's why I carry the keys and no one else has access to them. Ours is inspected by our elevator company that inspects the other elevators in the district every year. I get a new certificate for it when needed and it gets load tested every 5 years. They were also the ones who installed it and the only ones who service it.


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## StradivariusBone (Jun 4, 2014)

Just to follow up (since firewater's post reminded me I hadn't done so), under pressure from the music and theatre departments we elected to remain at status quo and allow the pit to be raised during bows as it "had always been done". We did not raise during intermission. We implemented a safety plan that involved spiking an area of 6" around the lip of the pit that the musicians were trained to not place objects or limbs within. My biggest concern was the downstage edge where there's a gap between the floor and the concrete wall and it's very easily for a shoe or chair leg to get caught and "sucked in".

I had one spotter on intercom in the basement watching for our electric cables so they didn't foul. I also had two additional spotters at audience level, one of whom I maintained direct eye contact with through the duration of the lift. If anyone called "no-go" we would stop and take the proper action, ultimately canceling the move if anyone felt it was unsafe. 

Supremely tacky in my opinion to have two hands standing in the house, practically in front of the stage, during bows, but so is raising the pit to do nothing more than satisfy a few egos (if we're being honest). I felt that what we did was the safest possible way to accomplish the desired result while keeping the peace. 

What I've since learned is that Florida lacks legislation or regulation on equipment lifts. For passenger elevators they require an annual cert (or 2 year if there's a service contract). They aren't required to certify pit lifts annually and therefore users do not have any reason to maintain a service contract for it. I've had a number of elevator repair companies claim they have the staff to service our GALA, but I doubt they are genuinely prepared. There are six in our county (not all GALA's from what I understand) that have not been inspected in some time, and as well built as GALA's equipment is, I'm guessing it is only a matter of time before one of our's go into disrepair.


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