# College



## Cue3 (Aug 14, 2003)

Hey Ya'll, me and Uncle Davie need some help. Were both going to college very shortly and also both want to change our majors. Here's the deal: We want to find a college that offers majors in Enterainment Technology and Web design. I figured since most of you have been through college and you all also know about technical stuff, you could help to recomend a good college that offers these courses. It has been very difficult for me to find colleges with even an Entertainment Technology major, so any help would be greatly appreciated. Also, if there are any other majors realted to techinical theater, lighting, sound, or anything similar, throw them my way so i can check them out.

Thanks for all the help

Matt


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## wolf825 (Aug 14, 2003)

Avenger253 said:


> Hey Ya'll, me and Uncle Davie need some help. Were both going to college very shortly and also both want to change our majors. Here's the deal: We want to find a college that offers majors in Enterainment Technology and Web design. I figured since most of you have been through college and you all also know about technical stuff, you could help to recomend a good college that offers these courses. It has been very difficult for me to find colleges with even an Entertainment Technology major, so any help would be greatly appreciated. Also, if there are any other majors realted to techinical theater, lighting, sound, or anything similar, throw them my way so i can check them out.
> 
> Thanks for all the help
> 
> Matt




Hmm... "Uncle Davie"...wow I think I started something. muuhahaha.. =}

North Carolina School of the Arts comes to mind... I never went there but know a ton of very good theater & production folks who went there and had good things to say about it. There also is Full Sail and I figure a few folks will mention it so I'll beat them to the punch... I don't fully endorse or suggest that place, based on personal experiences. You get what you put into (and drag out of) that school..so its questionable for school choices IMO. There are a few other good schools out there I am sure. Try ArtSearch and see if they list any colleges and their programs...don't know if they have a list but its another idea to search. good luck.... 

-wolf


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## TechDirector (Aug 17, 2003)

Finding one of those kinds of colleges are tricky. It's like finding a college that has Underwater basketweaving. LOL J/P!!! But I would like to find one that has computer related majors and technical theater because I'm interested in those feilds.


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## ship (Aug 18, 2003)

I'm a big fan of Illinois State and Ithica colleges programs but again, there are a lot of good schools out there, can you say Yale? 
Full Sail, I wouldn't recommend for theater people much less designers or non-lighting or sound people. It's a rock and roll tech training school not really much else. 
There was a school in Sarasota that had if I remember right a good theater program. Stagecraft Digest has had a lot of good discussions on finding the right school and has a lot of TD's and people from schools taking part that would let you know what their program is like from reading their posts. The question was also posted on Pro Sound earlier in the year with some good info on school programs. Sorry but I'm well out of school and don't really remember more programs. Perhaps Cal Sag or something like that.


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## megf (Nov 6, 2003)

I've heard Carnegie Mellon has a strong theatre dept., as well as University of CA, San Diego. I can tell you that UCLA has a nice design program, though not too intensive for undergrad - liberal arts and all that. 
Stage Directions magazine (www.stage-directions.com) has a pretty extensive list of schools, but it isn't broken down by program. 
Best of luck.


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## seanb (Nov 11, 2003)

I can give a canadian perspective on this...

The biggest two technical theatre schools are the National Theatre school in Montreal, and the University of Alberta in Edmonton. National theatre school is strictly theatre, though there are web design programs in Edmonton.

Honourable mention goes to University of Victoria in British Columbia, as it's design and technical programs are strong.


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## ship (Nov 11, 2003)

Contact me off line or by PM and I will forward you to a Canadian Master Stage Hand and Pro Electrician out there and you can ask him. Canada is another world for the most part. Contacting people like him, if not websites centered around that country would give more in-depth info. Otherwise there is always Stagecraft for a larger pool of people to ask.


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## wemeck (Nov 12, 2003)

With the down turn in the economy some high school seniors have ventured to colleges in Canada for economic reasons. Ran into a musical theater major from Ontario about ten years ago at SIUC and he talked up the school in Montreal. Hope that helps.


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## digitaltec (Nov 15, 2003)

> Full Sail, I wouldn't recommend for theater people much less designers or non-lighting or sound people. It's a rock and roll tech training school not really much else.



What is that about Ship? You have delt with one person from there now you are going to go about and trash Full Sail? Have you ever been to Full Sail or acually looked into what they teach? If you do, you will find it's not as you call it a "Rock and Roll" tech school. I's sorry that you have to deal with the 15% of Full Sail Grads that have no clue anything other then what the book says. Im sorry that the other 85% are on Broadway, Tours, Theme Parks, Theaters, etc. Are you going to be in town for LDI? Why don't you grow up a bit and acually treat people with respect.  

For the kid who was looking for a school with Entertainment Technology and web design, Full Sail has got both programs.


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## ship (Nov 16, 2003)

I can see that I should look into it more and form more of an opinion on the school before writing it off as a college that offers majors in Entertainment Technology and Web design as was requested. 
Had the request been for someone wanting to pass by college and get training in entertainment lighting and sound, tech. only than I will have said Full Sail was an option, if not going directly to work in the field and learning on the job as even more people do with just as much success. That's given they would not consider going to college that I would still recommend as always. As the question was posted, in requesting colleges that not only got into the tech part of entertainment which to me would include more than lights and sound, plus web design, I did not recommend Full Sail. That’s my opinion to date, why not help to change it? 

As for growing up and treating people with respect, there are many ways you could have written your correction of my obviously mis-informed opinion which will have been more helpful to myself and others.

Up until a few months ago, I had not heard much about Full Sail because it is not known as a theater training school, much less one for web design. Perhaps that’s just me with my head in the sand because it did not exist when I was in school. I had no opinions other than knowing it was an option as a training school mostly for high tech lighting and sound for the entertainment industry, but it is not a college nor will it give as broad based an education especially for theater that is again in my opinion, even more helpful. I realize that there are a lot of people that come from the school and all but a minor percentage that graduate from there make a good living. How many of them design for theater much less work theater as other than a member of a touring house staff? I suspect that more theater people come from colleges and do this, just as more people do everything Full Sail people in the industry with or without college and are just as proficient.

My opinion at the moment about this school is not based off having met one person from there, it is based off having met only one than talked some with others. Not a huge amount, but enough to I think become concerned. Surely it’s not my luck that I am only talking to the lower 15%. 

I do know that when a fresh graduate from the school was assigned to repair some lighting fixtures, he informed me that such things were not well covered in school, and that is what surprised me and changed my opinion about the program I had before that heard good things about. Many schools don’t get much into depth on the basics of electrical equipement much less how to service all of them - especially the conventionals. Full Sail specializes in training lighting tech people and I would expect them to not only master how to use a Hog, but how to analyze and repair a lamp bar and fix a Socopex cable, much less a Leko that’s missing it’s mica insulation causing an occasional short in this case. The simple things it would seem are not covered very well in depth and that is what I would take issue with based upon that lower 15% I’m exposed to. 

Why do I rag on Full Sail? My opinion and expectations of what it could be was let down. Misinformation, the lower 15%, perhaps, correct me. What percentage of the training is in lighting especially electrical fundamentals? Such students might get a Mac 2K back up and running when a teacher pulls a part, what about what kind of wire to use for a 5K Bambino?

Than we can get into the people coming from such a school having lots of experience with programming and using lighting, but what do they do with it? How much of all the different types of design do they really get including architectural and theatrical? I would assume they can read and draw blue prints on a design program, can they hand draft also? How about doing story boards for the director? Is part of the program also spent in getting designers to get beyond stick figures? It has it’s uses at times if for nothing else but sketching working drawings that are ledgable, much less in doing presentation level designs if but on the fly. 

I would at least hope they have class in the NEC at very least where it applies to the entertainment industry. Stuff like how many circuit breakers are allowed to be on a AC Distro that they just might have to construct some day as part of being a professional lighting technician. The brown wire on a Euro cable is for what? The fixture is 1.2Kw/120v what gauge of wire is needed to wire it? All kinds of little details about a entertainment lighting, a trade school of which should have just as much focus in properly training people in better than even an adequate and general theater school given the specialization of instruction given. 

Again my opinion about the school is only from having talked with people that were there. Perhaps it is from the disgrunted and disillusioned. 

Such information based upon those I have talked to and seen is not gone into depth enough and that’s a concern for me given the reputation this school has or wants to have.

Brian Ship
Lighting Hack.


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## ship (Nov 16, 2003)

This and the above postings are probably going too far in explaining why I did not recommend Full Sail earlier. I may be misinformed, I may not be, it’s my opinion for the moment.

Having reread digitaltec’s explanation of the school and his experiences with it, I hope me leaving the full reply in and explanation as to my current opinion of the school is of value and concerns about it for those interested in differences between it and college training are of value. Granted, my interests are design and tech, set and lighting technology in addition to lots of other parts of design and tech. It would seem, that by description, Full Sail would not be for me. I hope my leaving this long reply in can be respected as an alternative view as to what is useful to learn in tech much less design and tech and that anyone reading this, also goes back to his own description of what the school offers and it’s value from his welcome page.

Nobody tells me to “grow up” but after that spark to my reply, what I present is in my opinion worth considering for what else is involved in learning tech. Much less design. The two are intermixed and should in my opinion be learned together. This is however my opinion as a professional in the industry for over 10 years since school would you really want to cross swords on pedigrees for being Pro in this business? And I am someone working at a place that gets it’s people trained in the same gear, gets the same equipment before it comes to market as Full Sail, so that is no big thing except the difference is the vendors that I deal with - and I don’t do moving lights, but those vendors want my attention so I will purchase from them in addition to training both of us to use the gear once I buy it. Anyone using moving lights will be trained in it’s use when they need to learn about it. Had both the new Martin and Hog III board for a good long time now in addition to the Catalyst System and a computer based hoist system. They have all except the Hog III been on a few tours already. As have the Color Command been out on shows and recently the Mac 550 and a few new Martin lights have been kicking around the shop lately.

Example, TMB is coming out with a Soco/DMX tester, I was in charged of the in the field test for it and sent it back on Monday. I am also playtesting a few new Osram lamps. The Philips lamp for the Mac2K failed my test of it and will probably not get very far in the market. High End - at least I believe that is who it was, was in the shop Wednesday demonstrating for four hours to the entire shop staff interested in seeing the new equipment and program. I was busy doing other things such as working on a bid in materials for a show. Thursday I met with the new Litton/Veam distributers. Friday, TechniLux had a vendor rep out showing off some of their fixtures. Today was the next weekend in Hog School. For the last two weeks, one crew chief was being given classes in WisiWig. Next week there will probably be another student. Hoist school is coming up I believe though I don’t know who is being sent this year.

Here is my impression as to what's important in becoming a theater person:
When asked to design a show, I’m not only trained from school in Lighting Design, but also Set and Costume Design; Makeup, Script Analysis, Acting, Directing, a year of Theater History plus Theater Management. Than we get into classes like interior design which is of tremendous value both for set and lighting design on shows, houses and in clubs. Historys of China, Scotland, American, English and Euro History, Humanities for the arts, History of Magic, Theology and Ethics which all help in the designs I do and are only a start to the wealth of similar classes colleges offer that are of use. Let’s see, Italian American Reconciliation is based off Puccini’s opera Turnadot, useless information or design possibilities? Yet where would you start given a Chinese legend influence to the play? Without a year of Theater History, I will have never had the chance to study a lot about the periods of theater, much less find a liking for Irish theater as I had never seen a Irish play until my first design in one. How does one really design Isben if a lot is not known about period history and it’s influence is requested? Such things you can study in the design period, but what about in that first very important conversation with the director and how much time is lost in studying the basics?

Who knows how many other classes from a college I can pull info from in design not to mention tech. Chemistry? Or should I have to leave the theater for an office job, there is always a degree to speak of. Has Full Sail become recognized as at least a full credit BA program? From classes such as Building Materials for Architecture, I have a good working knowledge of not only forms of cement that was an entire semester in itself, but other components used that is of use for anything from drilling a hole in a ceiling to designing a set. From Scene Painting, you bet I can paint with the best of them, much less Plastics and Metals for the theater where I learned to weld and work with all sorts of glue, plastics and foam. Want to repair the foam on a road case that’s falling off? I actually have college training into what products will work not to mention why or what table saw blades and techniques will be best used when needed. Training? After college, how are jobs with metal working and rigging, than carpentry, now lighting in addition to design for set and lights I was very qualified to do? Given the OJT and college in all sorts of tech, me going TD is very possible. There is lots of things someone with a good broad based college education can do. What happens if you fall off a ladder or loose your night vision, how many other jobs does Full Sail qualify you for?

In addition to averaging reading Oedipus Rex once per year for seven years, I also had to read and study into Jones, Borrk, Grotowski, Boleslavsky, Vaughan, McCandless, Craig, Appia, Tipton, Brecht/Neiher and had an entire semester in just studying Shakespeare. Shall we discuss stuff about power tool use and construction learned in addition to I’m sure at least hopefully what is a similar amount of info on balancing a load, power and color theories and just plain what stage lights are for and how to wire them. 

No, we did not have moving lights much less complex lighting boards back than. Never had a need for them. Had I or should I have wished, I could just have signed up for Hog/Wisi-Wig school that was continuing today at work. Were I not salary, I would even be on the clock for going to class. I don’t need a school to learn such things at the moment but when and if I need to, getting training in them much less moving lights is simple enough to acquire. I did go to school for AutoCadd but since I don’t do much design anymore, my practice with it has slipped. I’m also sure I could learn all about moving lights I will ever need to know on the job, I already have the manuals for just about every moving light on the market due to the fact that I buy the lamps for them. Just a question of the value in learning such things for me or anyone given that’s not what I’m most useful or needed for and anyone that does need to learn such things is most of the time re-trained on the job anyway. Same with being sent to school for moving lights much less hoist school. Were it my job, or a need to know more, I would be sent just as most people are. Does Full Sail offer a recognized certificate for hoist school? The difference in going to a trade school and getting sent to school is when sent, you are paid to go and come back ready to apply what you are trained in. 

in other things such as in knowing on an expert level how to set up the drill press and band saw to cut a hundred 12" disks for Leko floor bases amongst many other things requiring college and a broad based training.


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## digitaltec (Nov 16, 2003)

It has come to my attention that Ship is always right and everyone else in the world is wrong. Really, his last two posts were not about why Full Sail is not a good school, but how he is the entertainment industry wraped up in one and what HE knows. If you dont mine me asking before I go any farther, what college did you go to? I would like to look up the "specs". I also ask, have you ever looked over the program discription for Full Sail or been to the facilities. Full Sail offers 6 degree programs and for those wanting to expand there education, a bachlor's degree program.Full Sail's programs are updated monthy to be up to date with the industry's standard. I am not going to sit here and say Full Sail is better than this school or that school. Thats has not been my intent from day one. You seem to want nothing to do with new technology and think that the old ways are best. There is nothing wrong with that. Everyone on this board have and will go their own ways in life. Ship has choosen a traditional style the same as most theaters. He also only likes to deal with theatrical productions. Again, nothing is wrong with that. I repsect your opinion on what you wrote. I have sent it to the program director at my school to see what he feels about it. As far as im conerned, siting here posting back and forth on this topic is quite pointless. Your views on the school will never change. There is more to Full Sail then you seem to understand. I'm not going to argue with you over any of this any farther. If you would like to continue this then by all means do I'll go right along wtih you. I am sorry to other members of this board for our behavior.


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## digitaltec (Nov 16, 2003)

It has come to my attention that Ship is always right and everyone else in the world is wrong. Really, his last two posts were not about why Full Sail is not a good school, but how he is the entertainment industry wraped up in one and what HE knows. If you dont mine me asking before I go any farther, what college did you go to? I would like to look up the "specs". I also ask, have you ever looked over the program discription for Full Sail or been to the facilities. Full Sail offers 6 degree programs and for those wanting to expand there education, a bachlor's degree program.Full Sail's programs are updated monthy to be up to date with the industry's standard. I am not going to sit here and say Full Sail is better than this school or that school. Thats has not been my intent from day one. You seem to want nothing to do with new technology and think that the old ways are best. There is nothing wrong with that. Everyone on this board have and will go their own ways in life. Ship has choosen a traditional style the same as most theaters. He also only likes to deal with theatrical productions. Again, nothing is wrong with that. I repsect your opinion on what you wrote. I have sent it to the program director at my school to see what he feels about it. As far as im conerned, siting here posting back and forth on this topic is quite pointless. Your views on the school will never change. There is more to Full Sail then you seem to understand. I see no point to argue with you over any of this any farther. If you would like to continue this then by all means do I'll go right along with you. I am sorry to other members of this board for our behavior.


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## ship (Nov 16, 2003)

You are very right and gutsy to stand up to me and I respect that very much. No, I'm not always right about anything, sometimes I just shout loudest, and I do yet have stuff to learn even about this school’s value. It is the next day and I hope we can both tone down how we are expressing our views, and apologize for the bandwidth also. The debate as I understand it is not about personal attacks or what any one person thinks, but upon two differing education programs. If you don’t mind, I would not mind continuing it so we both do understand each other. This industry is very small, far too small not to come to a working agreement on views.

The entertainment industry is not wrapped around what I know, however I am one of those in the industry already that has a very successful career in it, and one of the many that have done many different parts of it to find what part I wished to settle down into. What I wanted to do while in college - set design, did not turn out to be my end result - lighting tour technical support. What happens if moving lights is not what you want to do 10 much less thirty years from now? What if three years from now God forbid, you hurt your back or otherwise can't do this anymore? In my opinion, that's another part of the value of a more broad based education into the arts considering that the high technology can also be learned on the job. 
Me being right or wrong on what is most useful to learn in the industry is besides the point because by debating the value of a very specific training as opposed to a more broad one, we both learn things from discussing it I would hope.

My pointing out my concerns about the school was not to center any career around my views in what's important to be learning or any proper way of learning, but to express my opinion about the value of a full education into all parts theater and other training outside of theater while in school. Granted it is very theater and design orientated and the tech part I was trained in is very much centered around the basics of lighting over the higher technology. It is in my opinion much easier to learn how to use higher technology fixtures than to study all about Sam Shephard on the job should it's design become your task. Give me a moving light to learn about and by the end of the week I will know all about it. Now let’s debate the corn in “Buried Child.” One education better than another, perhaps yes or no if you intend to do one specific part of the industry, than end up only doing it. The school I went to better than yours? That’s all opinion specific to the user. My intent in this debate is to say why I hold my opinions in a more broad based education having already expressed concerns about the full training in all parts of entertainment lighting that are seemingly not focused upon in becoming an expert.

In addition to more fundamentals in wiring and conventionals, it possibly is also best to learn carpenter techniques as a lighting person should it become necessary for you to use such things. See the fixture floor bases above and the need to learn how to make a circle jig for a band saw to produce them. Let’s go with another example. The yoke on a AF-1000 has gone missing and it needs to go out on a show that day. With skills in metal working you can re-produce one without out any damage to drill bits or saw blades, and bend it to shape on the first try. There is all kinds of stuff even in training to go just onto the lighting production side that is useful to learn from other parts of production. This all assumes that design and all parts of production is of just as much value to be learning from school and you are not one of the smaller percentage that will end up only working shows or fixing moving lights. At some point, you still need to extract a set screw stuck in a dichroic filter to a moving light, having other skills can be useful. At some point you will run across a stripped yoke mounting hole on a Wild Fire fixture that needs to be welded back solid so a new rivet nut can be installed. If your intent is to become very qualified with a specific part of lighting and only on the production side, than perhaps Full Sail is of use. Perhaps as part of the normal education they also train you in all of these things or needing to know about them is not necessary to learn, help me to understand. A leg up in the moving lights and boards, yes sure, but by your earlier admission, not much about conventionals that will be found everywhere in the industry and in larger numbers also in need of repair. When it’s said that I don’t do high technology, that would put me within the bulk of people in this industry. There is nothing wrong with it, as I said, if I need to know, I can find out or will be trained in it. What is the point in me learning how to use a Mac 550 if that’s not my job to be using it? What’s the point in learning the light if you work in a theater that does not even have moving lights?

In my opinion the value of being well cross trained in all parts of production while in school, is of real value in opening up a career in letting the student do what ever he or she wants or ends up in. Before college, I did not like working with lights, in college I learned to like working with them in addition to design and carpentry. Who is to say that after some stagecraft or design classes, you don’t like shaping wood or designing shows better? Given a broad based education you can go from a carpentry gig, to a lighting gig, all the while designing a show elsewhere until you find the niche professionally you fall into. You can whip stitch that drape your lights tore back together, or hit the sewing machine to install a tag on it.

It still is my opinion that you can learn how to use higher technology equipment on the job. You don't have to be trained in high technology equipment to get a job with a company using it, what you need to know you will be trained in. Your training gives you a leg up on anyone wishing to use moving lights for a living, but as yet from what you convey, limits you to using them. You might be able to bypass a lot of OJT for their use and go directly to the production part and doing shows. Great if that is all you need to know or do.

A few years back Poison came to the shop for a rehearsal set up of their set and tour gear. I was not busy that weekend and lent a hand in constructing the set. I have never been on tour as a carpenter, but having worked as a professional in a few carpentry shops in construction of similar sets, I was able to fairly well figure it out and since I am trained as a crew chief, was able to lead the rest of the shop staff in it’s construction as well as the production manager who had constructed it before. I was of use to the point that I was offered the tour as it’s carpenter. If touring is your thing, having the ability to function in more than one part of production is of value. I know Full Sail offers lights and sound, and would hope that it’s basic program cross trains in both, but there is Costumes and Set also to the production part. Were it my interest to do touring anymore, I might have taken them up on the offer . That’s work I could have had in just being there as a body to lug the set around than showing qualifications to do more.

I just handed off the design for a Doctor Who convention to one of our tech people to do as a side gig. It is too low in budget for the company to provide more than gear at a discount as a favor to the production much less to provide designers on the clock. I don’t do many side gigs anymore and it did not hold my interest enough. My costs as a designer are also a bit more than they could reasonably afford. She is already trained in programming the moving lights that will be used having learned them on the job, but from school she is also trained in design for them and the rest of the fixtures needed. Her design will be following up the synopsis I already gave it's production manager as a favor in what would give him some ideas both in set and lights for more bang for his buck in a show.

Was it not just Wolf last week that was able to take over the design for a show while working on it? Cross training in both tech and design is useful.

Where did I go to school? I started at Elmhurst College, than went to College of DuPage before being pulled out for the war, than Illinois State University. The final school was a very good one, but one of many that are well rated for theater.

Right out of college I got a job in a union shop in the rigging and metal working area and was trained sufficiently to later become a Master Rigger at a +27 line set theater mainstage that was being converted from a hemp house to one using wire rope when not doing shows as a touring house. While there given a past study in design and architecture, I was also tasked with drawing up the preliminary blue prints for the architect to sign off on in converting it’s front end a school into theater and office spaces. I was also offered various designs in both lighting and set for ballet, dance and theater. It was one of five such architecture theater design jobs I had done. Within the first six years of going pro with a good but broad based education, I was already management for carpentry in being a Master Carpenter and in being offered a salary staff Production Manager position at another scene shop. I was a recognized designer in the area having been recognized in one of the Chicago newspapers as one of the top 10 new designers to watch in the coming years. Can you see my point about career opportunities that open up with a good broad based training?

I became management for lighting one year into switching to it from carpentry and heading up the hoist department for a while. I and am now recognized as an expert in this industry with lamps and electrical wiring which are my current specialties. On lamps, manufacturers ask me to see what I think, vendors infrequently call me to pluck my brain about them. Am I perfect yet or not in need of further training, no but I do make a well established living with this industry. Without needing to look into other advancement, thirty years from now I can retire - I don't have to worry about my knees giving out from climbing ladders or getting too old to load trucks. Full Sail will probably give you enough leg up that when such a time comes, given the aptitude for moving lights and boards, you also don’t have to do the above, but that’s given you are still doing it or assuming the skill. I also know a tech person that is in his fifties and still just stage hand pushing boxes about and focusing lights. He works three or more main jobs in lighting, and takes on side carpentery jobs to make a living and still has no desk to settle down into after all these years in the industry. I’m in my late thirties and it’s hard for me to do all that stuff much less do it every day, yet what else is there for him to be doing considering all he knows is the production end of lighting and some carpentry? If he gets injured, that’s it for this career or at least some pay for a while. I would hope that anyone in the industry with that amount of time in grade gets to become at least management, yet that would only become at best one out of 10. What happens to the rest of the tech people out there when they hit their forties and fifties? Again, Full Sail might better prepare you so some day you do find other than crew person work, given that’s what you end up doing.

Should I get board with my current job, I can go lamp retailer, go back to carpentry and rigging, or become a TD. Does everyone change careers in mid stream? No but a significant amount of them do. I know people with acting degrees that worked carpentry for money, than left the theater to build houses. I know others with design degrees that end up programming computers. Still others that start out welding and rigging and now run follow spot. More yet that started out touring and are now designing shows. Tech people that started their career fixing moving lights, than medical electronics, than went carpentry. Still more that never went to college, just either toured or designed and worked theater that are now lighting management and tour designers. Very dependant upon the person attempting the career, still my opinion is still leaning towards a more broad based education.


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## digitaltec (Nov 17, 2003)

Ship, that’s for that last entry. It clears up allot of "missing links" I had. I appreciate you taking the time to explain all of this to me. I understand fully were you are coming from. For me most of the things you said ex. set design, wiring, etc., I already have experience in and have a good credit to my name for it back in Pittsburgh. Yes, I am a theater technician, but I want to do more then just theater. I want to go on tours, work on cruise lines, work theaters, etc. I want to get a taste of it all you could say. Full Sail is not just all about intelligent lighting, etc. Yes, they are not going to teach me theatrical techniques par say but I feel its going to give me a different view on things and teach me things I don’t know about. I'm sure you are thinking what can an 19 year old college student know or think he knows. I'm not going to write about my experiences, etc only because I don’t want it to seem like im bragging and try to come off as professional as I can be. But I will say I do experience professionally at a well known theatrical venue and several concert venues. I know the industry pretty well. Yes, there is so much I don’t know and want to learn but im also not going into this completely blind like most people I have met at Full Sail. I say this about a good percentage of Show Pro students at Full Sail. Most have limited or no experience. I spent an entire summer working at a theater doing what most would call “slave labor“. It was the most valuable job I have never had. My job was to go around and fix stuff basically under the supervision of an electrician. He taught be everything abut wiring, re-wiring, mathematical equations to determine different factors, etc. As I stated earlier, I have build several theatrical sets and have a vast knowledge of tools, etc. Maybe I am one of the few to go into Full Sail with a lot of previous knowledge. I don’t know. Again, there is still so much more I can and would like to learn. You can never stop learning. I just choose to start me carrier in a different fashion than you. I don’t see a problem with it if you don’t. I will be at LDI on Friday in the exhibit hall at some point. I have to meet with several people during the weekend but If you are interested in meeting up let me know and I’ll give you my cell number. I think we can call this war over and call it a draw. I want to learn from you not fight with you. I hope we can come to this simple agreement. Thanks again for all of your input into this topic that I admit has been on my mind for almost 8 months.


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## fishyswishy (Nov 17, 2003)

Ok heres my 2 cents worth on the whole subject, i fully agree with both so called sides with everyones views on an education of technical crafts. i am in the process of looking for colleges as i speak and have visited both Full sail and typical fine art colleges for theatre. What i really enjoyed about full sail is the fact that they are on top of the industry all the time. when i got a tour of the facility all i can think about is how they are constantly reconstructing their buildings. many of the rooms i visited had wires running thru holes just cut out of the wall. i personally believe that to get into the tech realm you must be on the top of all products out there. full sail does a great job of doing that making it a quick way to get into the industry. i can agree with dave that a fine arts college will help you with the artistic design of tech work. i personally think both have its characteristics. anyone looking for schools for a furthur education in technical work in a areas just take a peak at full sail.


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## digitaltec (Nov 17, 2003)

As fishyswishy stated, take a peak at Full Sail. Look at all of your options. Check out 4 year and 2 year schools. Find a school that wil fit your needs and learning styles. Full Sail IS NOT for everyone. It is a VERY fast paced school. Every class is 4 hours long. Expect to be there at all times of the day. Full Sail is a 24 hour 7 days a week school. No such thing as weekends at Full Sail. You can have anywhere from 4- 18 hours a day worth of classes. Traditional colleges might be better for you. I looked into every possible option for me. I advise every one of you to dont limit your options, keep an open mind while choosing a school. Make sure you are 110% happy with the school you choose. Ask TONS of questions. It's your future at stake why not ask what you are thinking about a school. Take your time. Start thinking about colleges the summer after your sophmore year. It's a good time to travel and look at schools. Do what YOU feel is right. when you are on the campus of the right school you feel it. You feel like you should be there. If you dont feel a connection then maybe you should re-think your chooices. It's a long process but in the end you will be happy with your dessision. If anyone has any more questions, please dont be afraid to ask.


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## wemeck (Nov 18, 2003)

My only concern about a private vocational school is the ability to transfer from the school, or the accreditation of the school in terms of qualifing for a graduate level program with a full sail bachelors.

I know with Devry, another private vocational school, students have a hard time getting into certain graduate fields with a devry degree. Unless they go to Keller Graduate school.


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## wolf825 (Nov 18, 2003)

Geez...I get hip-deep in a show for a couple of days and all heck breaks loose while I'm gone..  

Well I spent the good amount of the past 30 minutes reading and digesting the discussions and the arguments...Only comments I have to say are this: This has proven to be some VERY informative and educational discussions and debates going on, and like the dogma's that divide religions while sharing the same goal, deity or commonality, there is the"tech" dogma that separates opinions on what is the BEST training and fundimentals to learn and know to be a good tech. The goal between whether you learn theory and design or tech and programming is the same tho for most people--being a GOOD TECH and a credit at what you do and contributing to the industry and the shows you are on. So the debate is not what school is better, its become WHAT is the making of a good tech? Do they have to know this or that and the full background of that other thing in the corner? If a tech doesn't have X background or knowledge--does that lessen their skill or credibility to the job? IMO--no..life like everything is a learning experience..no one can ever know everything.. But as Ship points out--there are valid points in knowing the past and the detailed skills as well as the overall skill. Its like knot tying...sure--you can tie a clove hitch GREAT and know its one of the best knots for securing something to a pipe or truss...but does it make you a better knot person to know that the hitch reduces the tensile strength of the rope 25%? Yes and no--for the overall fundamental it does not matter but if you were using the knot to hold something beyond 75% of the tensile strength of the rope--YES it does matter. This is a situation as I see and read from the posts that you BOTH are right on the key points..but from different views you don't seem to see that. i spent the better part reading and re-reading the issues and trying to figure out where the "problem" or disagreement is..I couldn't find it...but I did find a few key points that seem to be missed: 

digitaltec...IMO telling ship to grow up and so forth is like telling Jon Phelps to get a real job. Not respectful for the information and time that is being taken to provide a WEALTH of information, opportunity and life-experiences to consider--yet you say not a few words later that Ship should have respect..where is the disrespect in his view, and where is YOUR respect for his view?? You made your choice of FS and you believe it--why argue? Maybe some of the comments you disagree with--but as he said, he would like to find out more--so tell him more of your experiences of FS rather then be disrespectful back. Otherwise you just lump yourself into that 15%. It would not only benefit him to know--but others on here as well, hence the point of the website. Ship knows his experience with FS grads and so forth--show him something different. Also consider--since I have a history with FS, Ship is correct in that FS does not cater to "theater" in the traditional sense. I know a lot about FS..plus I have quite a few friends and crew who have gone there or who are there currently in school...and while FS offers a lot of education opportunities and experiences on equipment, there is a lot of things they do NOT offer or delve into in depth where other schools do and that has to deal with traditional theater practices and history and some of the skills. It all comes down to the STUDENT needing to decide for themselves WHAT they want to learn and be taught and what their GOALS are for their career in this biz. YOU have a background in electrics and theater--that is wonderful but think of the student who has NO background in that stuff who may not get a lot of the experience taught knowledge that you already have? You have an advantage, not everyone will. Same for a regular university--what about the student who learns all this theory and electrical skills but never gets to program or be trained on a MaxXYZ console? What about a theater student who attends a 4 year program but wants to go on the road with Korn? He won't get there easily from a 4-year traditional institute and not knowing the gear, where the FS grad will have the advantage. Ship''s point he stated is valid that for true technical theater, FS is not geared towards that--it is by its own definition a technical training college. It teaches live Show Production--but that show production is NOT theater in setting--if it was there would be a 50 line set single purchase fly system and a proscenium stage and not just the live-hall with the chain motor and self-climbing truss rig. Its NOT saying that FS is a bad school...it saying that for MOST theater folks who may not want to tour or do theme parks or cruise ships, it may not be the best choice. Not every theater will have a Midas XL4 or a dozen movers...not every theater has a line array...but a tour--don't know many tours that aren't on the line-array bandwagon and don't know many tours that don't have a couple of XL4's. Whether you want to believe it or not, FS show pro course IS geared towards the touring production industry much more then it would be to the Theater industry. While BOTH are in the entertainment industry and BOTH are live-show oriented, and many elements cross-over from one to the other, not every one will and many items and topics WILL be left out by either FS or a general university. FS doesn't cover body and wig mic'ing techniques or set design...they don't cover make up and special effect or carpentry and metal fabrication...but then university doesn't cover EQ theory and practice, or show automation, digital and midi...and NONE cover high voltage power tie-ins or load balancing. See?? You BOTH have your good points...you just need to SEE that. This isn't a topic of "who's school is the BEST or which one SUCKS"..its a topic of What schools offers what things, and WHY would that be of benefit to a student. 

It all boils down to what the STUDENT wants in a school and what their goals are to do in life, and the basis of this thread of discussion is COLLEGES, and the best we, as participants, can do is to provide BOTH and ALL aspects the best we can, and let the student decide what appeals to them, and not argue about it. Geez---I remember when FS had the old Syncrolites and this was before Martin climbed on board--if you haven't checked them out ask the guys to dig a few out of storage shed to check out. Would it BENEFIT digitaltec to know Synchrolite systems--in a modern setting no as they are ancient history, but in an overall setting--YES cause a mover is a mover--only the wiring and motors and brand names change. When I signed my stupid secrecy agreement with Varil-lite and got to crack open my first VL5 I thought I would be WOWED in awe at the the "secrets" inside--but I came to see--its a moving light and its not that big a difference inside compared to a Mac. But having known Mac's and High End stuff--made my tinkering around the VL5 SO much more easy. Key to my point being is in this industry wher so many fields cross over, you can NEVER have enough knowledge and that you will NEVER ever stop learning and growing cause you never know when you will need to know or DO something specific, or that tidbit of knowledge and expertise you gained can be of benefit to saving the show or being an assett to a company. Ship is a GREAT asset to this forum and has a lot to offer from his experiences and life of production work, just as digitaltec does on his experiences.... 

My suggestions--Ship, hook up with digitaltec and go vist the FS truck at LDI (I presume they will have the truck out there again) and find out that info you want to know about the place firsthand--maybe digitaltec will give youa quickie tour of the actual space in winterpark up the road, and digitaltec--be glad you have the opportunity to talk with someone of Ship's history, knowledge base and career experiences and LISTEN to the points he is making as well as your own--he is IN the biz you WANT to be in and is well respected and a wealth of knowledge. I have been in this biz over 15+ years from rock tours to corporate to pro theater...and I still get taught new things from him--and sometimes I feel like an IDIOT pointing out things he already knows that are news to me<G>...and I for one WELCOME & value his advice and input to this ever-learning experience we call the entertainment industry. No one can ever know it all--anyone who says they know it all is a liar... All we can do is swap our knowledge and experiences and be glad that we have the opportunity's to share and learn from each other of SUCH a vast array of backgrounds, to be the best techs out there that we want to be...and learn to respect the views and SEE the views that are presented and understand WHY they may truely be valid and important to know and consider.... 

my 2-cent soapbox ramblings...
wolf


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## ship (Nov 18, 2003)

Yes, Yes, Yes! Get a taste for it all! That’s all I could ask for anyone in this career, having replied, we see eye to eye and are nicy nice again as there is no opposing thoughts on the matter in the most important broad sense of it. Without experiencing and training in all there is to be had, all the paths in this field there are, and preparing for them... nuff said. It’s good you already have the experience and design/wiring. The more you bring to the table, the more balanced your experience the better it will serve you. My taking a hard line on Full Sail is misplaced very probably, still my concerns about all not similar in experience only getting it from there and not as it in addition to more. Way back when, before I became a hard liner, I will have thought the training you get from Full Sail was an excellent supplement to other trainings and especially recommended as a leg up on higher technology and other production stuff. Perhaps the initial conclusion was not too off base. Perhaps, what is it a year and a half there, and a year and a half in a theater school would be a good solution.

On the other hand, “I’m sure you are thinking what can an 19 year old college student know or think he knows.” Still you don’t know my thinking. By 19 I was the shop foreman for the above Elmhurst College scene shop as a Freshman and even knowing more than the instructors would let on. Because I was putting in at least 40 hours a week in “saving shows,” I soon later found myself kicked out of that school no matter how the director of the theater promised to stand up for me. Thus my famous quote “The show must go on, but if you don’t study, the show will go on, just without you.” 

I was at the top of my world at 19, bla bla bla. The rest is deleted. I talk too much.


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