# Flameproofing Argument



## porkchop (Feb 10, 2011)

Alright I want to hear what you guys think about a difference in opinion I'm having with my management. I'm going to try to present this without showing which side I believe in. Is painting a set piece with a non flammable paint (like Break Though) an acceptable method of fire proofing?


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## MNicolai (Feb 10, 2011)

The appropriate action is to submit a test sample of your substrate with the paint applied to it that the local AHJ can burn.

However, management has the right to enforce stricter policies than AHJ, so just getting AHJ to approve it may not be enough.


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## derekleffew (Feb 10, 2011)

porkchop said:


> ...Is painting a set piece with a non flammable paint ... an acceptable method of fire proofing?


I'd say No. If it were, there wouldn't be a desire, need, or market for a product such as Rosco Flamex PA (Paint Additive).


Unsolicited advice: As a "touring stagehand," the matter is above your paygrade. Make this between "your management" and the AHJ, who will always have the final determination.

See also Rosco's page Understanding Fire Retardants.


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## MNicolai (Feb 10, 2011)

I bite my tongue having more thoroughly thought about this.

"Non-flammable" is not synonymous with "flame retardant".

While the paint may not ignite at the touch of a spark, a flame can still ignite the lumber. Flame retardant isn't critical because it makes the paint less flammable -- it's critical because when it burns, it chokes the fire by giving off chemicals that prevent the flame from feeding on oxygen.

Non-flammable would be a fine trait for soft goods because the only material that is there to be burned is the fabric but because that doesn't ignite, it is does not create a hazard (unless it melts and drips instead, which is very real concern for synthetic fabrics).

In your case, the paint needs to make up for the lumber being flammable by creating a means of self-extinguishing a flame should the lumber below the paint ignite (which plain, non-flammable paint will not do without some help from an additive).


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## porkchop (Feb 10, 2011)

Thanks Mike that description of Flame Retardant is exactly what I was looking for when I asked this question. 

Derek: You're right and this isn't something I actually expect to see any change over it's more to settle the thoughts in my own head


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## Footer (Feb 10, 2011)

It may or may not be right, but here it is...

I have spent a good amount of time building shows that are built to go sit in a warehouse and get rented to theatres across the country. Because of this, we had to keep flameproofing logs on everything. The only thing we did to our scenery was back paint everything. IE: No raw wood or steel leaves the paint shop. We had one show where we did flamex everything because we knew there would be live flame onstage. For that matter we also flame proofed the entire costume stock (costumers LOVED that...). Soft goods/drops built for the show were of course built out of treated fabric. We never had an issue with any of our sets going into any venue. From what I can tell, the "No raw wood" rule is pretty well accepted. It may not be right, but its there, and of course any AHJ could nix anything.


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## BrianWolfe (Feb 11, 2011)

No that does not make the flammable substrate fireproof.


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## gafftaper (Feb 11, 2011)

I love this topic because there is no universal code answer. All you have to do is make a fire martial mad and just about any show could be shut down. Even a set fully treated with Flamex could potentially fail to pass inspection if it's made of wood and you get the wrong guy on the wrong day. Paint front and back and 99% of the time it's going to be fine. But it's a CRAZY world out there.


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## TheatrePros (Feb 18, 2011)

break through is not an acceptable fire proofer. I actually had an overhire weld on top of an old platform that was just done in breakthrough (the previous TD didnt believe in flame retardents) sure enough after a few minutes the paint began to smolder and there was enough smoke for me to believe there was flame. stick with the products that you can hand the materials sheet to the fire marshall, worth the piece of mind for sure.


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## Fibredude (Jul 20, 2011)

*Re: Flameproofing Argument>>>Need Advice Please!! Backdrop fireproofing?*

I am currently in the prep stages of Producers and also a re-vamp of the theatre space ...the space is a New England Presc. Vauldville circa stage... 1896 was the build date.

The unfortunate incident I have in front of me is due to poor recommendations on the part of our fire suppression contractor and the result being that "I" cut a 60 yr old pipe after closing the Branch valve and it failed .... result was less than pretty.. and the AHJ was far less than amused>>> we also have hanging over the local AHJ and state groups... the unfortunate incident nearby of the Station Niteclub fire with WhiteSnake and the awful results of that fire. 

I now face severe scrutiny of the AHJ for at least the coming years.... He will not allow us to fireproof our own goods even though after doing much research there seems to be NO license or training required... and the Liability of the fire proofing company, although maybe comforting to the AHJ would most likely be meaningless after the fact.... 

If anyone has true experience and training that can advise me in this matter.. I would welcome counseling... 
thanks!


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## Footer (Jul 20, 2011)

*Re: Flameproofing Argument>>>Need Advice Please!! Backdrop fireproofing?*

Nope there is no fire proofing license that I know of outside of New York City and California. I could be wrong on that one however. That being said though, in order to have your goods pass inspection they need to be correctly tagged and have a cert from a testing lab. 

Right now I have all 100+ piece of soft goods from both of my venues out for fireproofing. Fireproofing is hard. Doing it correctly is hard. Doing it so the drapes don't get destroyed is even harder. Spraying does work, however it is not perfect. It misses spots. It also does not penetrate. Also, if your goods are not properly cleaned before the application, the treatement will not take. Rosco suggests that instead of spraying on FR treatment, that the good gets immersed in a tank of the chemical. After that, the good needs to be hung until its dry. 

Thats why your AHJ is not allowing you to do it. There is simply too much to go wrong in the application. Once piece might pass NFPA 701, but who knows what the other piece of drape is like. 

All of my stuff is at Reynolds Drapery. They are out of upstate NY but do work all over New England, NY and NYC. Their prices are good and they do good work. Don't risk it. This is not a DIY project. Not only could you make the good unsafe, you could also destroy your goods.


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