# Control Booth monitors?



## sdauditorium (Mar 10, 2011)

Our FOH control booth has sliding windows that we usually have open for shows, especially to hear the house mix and adjust sound accordingly. With sliding windows, is there any added benefit to getting monitors for the control booth (either for sound and/or lighting) and keeping the windows closed?

I was just curious to what experiences and opinions other people had.


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## DiscoBoxer (Mar 10, 2011)

It may help for lighting and multimedia cues, but for live audio, it may or may not be as effective. At most, it may help the engineer hear the mix as the source for troubleshooting or perhaps to verify a record output, but the audio engineer should be listening to the room and how the sound interacts within it. This cannot be done effectively in a seperate environment.

I have heard some will put ambience mics into the booth monitor mix but this is not accurate since it cannot truly represent the room acoustics in the majority of cases. I also am not a fan of "closed" booth designs for the audio engineer's position. Even though an open window may be there to allow the sound in, the booth is still changing the sound from what may be heard in most positions of the audience.


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## DuckJordan (Mar 10, 2011)

+1 to disco boxers post.

I had to deal with that for 3 and a half years at my old high school, Its great for recording, its great for the light tech, and its great for work music when cueing or eating in the booth. 

But as far as helping the audio tech, its a hinderance. I trained someone to use the soundboard for our grand march (i was a senior and their fore not allowed to help) he ended up having the booth monitors on with nothing going out to the main cluster. He could hear it so he thought it was okay, Lets just say he got reamed out by not just me but the head of the prom committee. To me they are of no use unless its in a system locked down for levels and only receives input from a mic out in the space.

Even then though i would still prefer the console in the house over anything else.


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## sdauditorium (Mar 10, 2011)

DiscoBoxer said:


> It may help for lighting and multimedia cues, but for live audio, it may or may not be as effective. At most, it may help the engineer hear the mix as the source for troubleshooting or perhaps to verify a record output, but the audio engineer should be listening to the room and how the sound interacts within it. This cannot be done effectively in a seperate environment.
> 
> I have heard some will put ambience mics into the booth monitor mix but this is not accurate since it cannot truly represent the room acoustics in the majority of cases. I also am not a fan of "closed" booth designs for the audio engineer's position. Even though an open window may be there to allow the sound in, the booth is still changing the sound from what may be heard in most positions of the audience.


 
That's pretty much the feelings I had going into it, but I wanted to gather other input going into it. We have some left over budget funds for this year (ends in June), and this was one of the potential small projects I was looking at doing. I have about $2,000 left to play with to pick up equipment..

I noticed you're in GB. Could I ask where you're a TD at?


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## mbenonis (Mar 10, 2011)

I've found booth monitors useful for cueing and sound design, but not for live. Might be a better choice to buy a set of studio monitors and connect it to a sound workstation (or, if you don't have one, invest in a sound workstation).

Or: Invest in extra wireless accessories. Like extra mic elements...you can never have too many of those!


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## cpf (Mar 10, 2011)

My vote for extra cash goes to extra wireless parts or extra wired microphones (if your collection is lacking some).


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## sdauditorium (Mar 10, 2011)

mbenonis said:


> I've found booth monitors useful for cueing and sound design, but not for live. Might be a better choice to buy a set of studio monitors and connect it to a sound workstation (or, if you don't have one, invest in a sound workstation).
> 
> Or: Invest in extra wireless accessories. Like extra mic elements...you can never have too many of those!


 
I was thinking about picking up another couple Countryman E6 elements. We have 16, but like you said, can never have too many. I'm also looking at adding a few wired mics, like a Beta 87, Beta 52, Audix D6, and another PCC160-we have 2, and a Countryman Type 85. 

Any other fun things you could think of? There's nothing glaring that we need, and the money must get used by June.


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## museav (Mar 10, 2011)

I'd even question the cueing function many times as I've seen many booths with audience right outside the window and if you can hear the sound through the open window, then the audience may be able to hear the any sound from the booth.


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## DiscoBoxer (Mar 11, 2011)

sdauditorium said:


> I noticed you're in GB. Could I ask where you're a TD at?


 
I do church tech consulting at many churches in the region, but my home and where I TD is at Heartland Church. How about you up in DC? I have to get up there soon to pick up some Cherry wine for my wife!


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## DiscoBoxer (Mar 11, 2011)

museav said:


> I'd even question the cueing function many times as I've seen many booths with audience right outside the window and if you can hear the sound through the open window, then the audience may be able to hear the any sound from the booth.


 
This is an excellent point that I failed to mention. About one of the only benefits to having the audio engineer in the closed booth, is so that he can make fun of people in the audience or production, without being heard.......if the window is closed.


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## rwhealey (Mar 11, 2011)

I have found that having a small sliding window is worse than having no windows at all. If you have the window open, you think you know what the audience hears. You don't.


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## sdauditorium (Mar 11, 2011)

rwhealey said:


> I have found that having a small sliding window is worse than having no windows at all. If you have the window open, you think you know what the audience hears. You don't.



Does it make a difference if it's a large sliding window?


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## Edrick (Mar 11, 2011)

I recommend against sliding windows. Let's just say they may fall out...


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## 3dB (Mar 11, 2011)

If you are not truly _hurting_ for equipment, a talk with the owner to encourage them to apply the extra $2,000 toward a new open floor-level booth would be a worthy pursuit. There is a marked increase in production quality to be gained with such a project. Hearing what the audience hears is priceless (and in a perfect world, no other option should ever be considered).

If you don't have a dedicated recording mixer (and if you think you could make use of one at some point), your existing enclosed booth would likely be appropriate for this purpose.

If you _are_ hurting for equipment presently, then do what you have to do - but I wouldn't pass up an excellent opportunity to pitch an appropriate FOH booth to the ownership. As long as the project were approached from a professional design and build perspective, I think they would never be unhappy with the end result.

Good luck with your project. 

Regards,
Mark


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## CSCTech (Mar 11, 2011)

As many have said, even mixing from a closed booth isnt a good idea.
But you may have no other option of course.

If the booth is large enough and has seperate areas for say, lighting, it might be beneficial for the lighting tech to have a monitor. But unless your doing small scale shows or presentations or something similar, you really want to hear the audio as the audience is. The sliding windows definetly help though. But now you need to think of delay, depending on how long the runs are to your mains as the monitor would probably be pretty short. Even the slightest delay will probably do more harm then good for the sound tech.


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## museav (Mar 12, 2011)

CSCTech said:


> But now you need to think of delay, depending on how long the runs are to your mains as the monitor would probably be pretty short. Even the slightest delay will probably do more harm then good for the sound tech.


Maybe I'm misunderstanding this but any delay issues with booth monitors is usually associated with the distance to the speakers and the time it takes the sound to arrive at a listener, the actual cable length to the speakers, which is what 'run' would normally be referencing, is not a factor. Obviously, booth monitors would be much closer to the operator than are the house speakers thus if you are using the booth monitors for program audio then it is common to delay the booth monitors so that what you hear is representative in synchronized in time with the sound from the stage and/or the house system. It is also pretty common to apply some equalization so that what you hear also represents the frequency response of what the audience hears. One challenge with this is that you ideally only want the delay and equalization applied when the listening is associated with the house sound, you don't really want them applied when cueing or direct monitoring sources or the mix.


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## TimmyP1955 (Mar 17, 2011)

Our booth opening is very large. Even so, the sound in the house is quite different than at FOH, as a lot of the room reflections don't make it to the console.


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## Blacksheep0317 (Mar 23, 2011)

sdauditorium said:


> I was thinking about picking up another couple Countryman E6 elements. We have 16, but like you said, can never have too many. I'm also looking at adding a few wired mics, like a Beta 87, Beta 52, Audix D6, and another PCC160-we have 2, and a Countryman Type 85.
> 
> Any other fun things you could think of? There's nothing glaring that we need, and the money must get used by June.


 

Personal rule of thumb..wires beat wireless any day of the week. 

But first, topic at hand. 

Save the money on monitors. The only engineer who can really ever benefit from monitors in a live setting is a monitor engineer mixing on wedges to have a cue wedge. Other wise, all sound guys should have a decent pair of headphones as part of their personal comp. I currently have both a closed pair of Sennheisers and a open pair of AKGs that never leave my work box. Having a set of cue monitors in a booth makes an engineer feel too comfortable, in my own opinion, in his booth. If he is comfortable, he does not leave said booth to walk the house. ...hence the prom snafu... 


As to the extra side thread that has seemed to pop up, me and wireless just dont like each other. I dont care how much money you spend (I currently run a fully distroed Shure UHR setup with 5 dual receivers and an assortment of transmitters and capsules ranging from the shure capsules to heil and telefunkin), you will never have the same quality and reliability as a wired mic. It is the nature of the beast. And anyone who begs to differ needs to take a Shure UHR with a SM58 capsule, and a wired SM58 and listen to both, flat, through a decent PA.

As to a wired comp? All the mics you listed are great mics, but for generic set-up some not so awesome. Beta52's are a industry standard large diaphram dynamic. Great choice, even more so if you bring in acts with riders. I personally really like the D6 as well, but it hasnt taken as much of a hold yet, and is basically an overlap with the 52. As to the Beta87? Great mic for the right situation. 98% of the time I bet you could get the same sound quality out of a SM58 for a fraction of the cost. Other options? Sennheiser 604's and 609's, great mics for the price, and highly rugged. A pair of SM81's is always a nice thing to have. A nice Beta91 for the guy who is a fan of double micing the kick drum.. If you dont like the SM58, try the M80. Another great choice for the price. Or most anything by Heil. 

But long story short..avoid the booth boxes. They hurt more than sooth. And defiantly poke at all your sound guys into going out and spending the $130-$250 to buy a good pair of headphones and take care of them. Very good investment all around. And as much as it may be the tour engineer in me, mics should always be about the most good for the most people for the best price. Stick with the standards, they are standards for a reason and dont specialize unless you have a dang good reason to.

But..all my personal feelings on a very subjective area


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## elliot47 (Apr 25, 2011)

DuckJordan said:


> +1 to disco boxers post.
> 
> I had to deal with that for 3 and a half years at my old high school, Its great for recording, its great for the light tech, and its great for work music when cueing or eating in the booth.
> 
> ...


 i do enjoy eating in the booth... One time i had to sneak in our dinner (cheeseburgers an fries) while the director was giving a speech to the cast members in the house seats about not eating in the auditorium. And during this the ENTIRE tech crew was eating burgers and fries. We also like to cook bacon on our George Foreman grill during boring performances...


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## elliot47 (Apr 25, 2011)

One time the light crew wanted us to run a monitor from the soundboard to the light booth so we could play them music off the laptop.... 5 min later the director walks onto to the stage and yells, "Why is Johnny Cash playing through the stage monitors!?!?!?!?!" oops... wrong knob...


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## chausman (Apr 25, 2011)

elliot47 said:


> i do enjoy eating in the booth... One time i had to sneak in our dinner (cheeseburgers an fries) while the director was giving a speech to the cast members in the house seats about not eating in the auditorium. And during this the ENTIRE tech crew was eating burgers and fries. We also like to cook bacon on our George Foreman grill during boring performances...


 
I think this belongs in the "Corn Chips in the Booth" thread, although funny. "do you smell bacon?" "oh, the shows almost over, then we can get food" "No, I REALLY think someone has bacon somewhere!"

I also think that monitors in the booth are more in the way than anything. You should be able to hear whats going on with out them, or you need to find a different spot for the sound console.


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## elliot47 (Apr 25, 2011)

chausman said:


> I think this belongs in the "Corn Chips in the Booth" thread, although funny. "do you smell bacon?" "oh, the shows almost over, then we can get food" "No, I REALLY think someone has bacon somewhere!"
> 
> I also think that monitors in the booth are more in the way than anything. You should be able to hear whats going on with out them, or you need to find a different spot for the sound console.


Haha! Yeah we got in trouble for the bacon... We also had our playstation taken away... Apparently it was too big of a distraction! Whatever... We still have our mini-fridge (We went through a 48 pack of mt.dew in 2 days) , coffee pot, microwave, and our personal computers.


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## maestrobranson (May 16, 2011)

I feel lucky/unlucky in the fact that I typically mix all summer long in an amphitheater with a bangin' Meyer system that fills our house area +\- 3db fairly flat response in a 600+ seat concrete box. However, our foh is behind the seating area and out of coverage. For jukebox musicals (we do Buddy alot), I mix like I do for rock concerts and don't use monitors. But for traditional musicals, where my job is reinforcing vox and cues only...that means no orchestra through the pa, I use a Meyer upm-1p as a cue wedge, which is very flat and representative of the pa. That said, we took buddy to the Spencer in Ruidoso NM, where they have a nice rh system (I like mine more ) and a Pm5D, and I would have loved monitors for their booth, I kept murdering the house because I couldn't hear it myself...and I mix conservatively volume wise. The thing with monitors, you have to eq them to represent the room, delay them to the room, and be diligent about walking the room and double checking for problems. Just my 2c.
Also, if I had a booth, a mini fridge would definitely be there.


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## sdauditorium (Aug 6, 2011)

For the time being, I'm going to lay off purchasing monitors and use the money for other needs. We're in the midst of planning for a complete sound system replacement/upgrade package and part of that will be adding (hopefully) a patch point/mix area that's actually in FOH instead just the booth. Thanks for the suggestions.


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