# ETC unveils new Element™ lighting control consoles, USITT 2009



## MNicolai (Mar 19, 2009)

As usual, you asked, and thanks to the folks at ETC, your concerns have been addressed in their addition to the Eos line of consoles, with respect to the market formerly taken care of by the Express series consoles.


> When customers demand, ETC listens. Users have been asking for an ETC lighting control console designed expressly for modest rigs and maximum hands-on fader control. In response, ETC is introducing their new Element consoles at USITT 2009 in Cincinnati. ETC Controls Product Manager Sarah Clausen explains: "ETC defined the basic lighting controller when the Express console was introduced in 1995. We've seen over time that the basic lighting rig has changed. With Element, we've redefined what 'basic lighting console' means, without losing the ease of use of Express." Element comes in two hardware versions, based on fader count (the Element 40 or the Element 60). Each supports either 250 or 500 channels and a full two universes of DMX output.
> 
> 
> 
> ...







> Element™
> 
> *The basics of lighting control, redefined.*
> Based on ETC’s award-winning Eos® control system but with a simplified feature set in a stand-alone console, Element was designed expressly for modest rigs and maximum hands-on fader control. Affordable and easy to use, Element packs in the fundamentals of lighting control. Element comes in two hardware versions, based on fader count, to suit your rig. Each supports either 250 or 500 channels and two full universes of DMX output:
> ...


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## dvsDave (Mar 19, 2009)

I'll be at USITT tomorrow, I'll have my video camera (a little Flip Minio HD) and I will see if I can get some time to interview Sarah Clausen and have her show off the Element. What would you like to see and are there any questions that you want answered about the new Element?


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## MNicolai (Mar 19, 2009)

Q for Sarah (or other ETC folk)

What percentages of other consoles would you say the Element is based off of or similar to? (For example, 20% Express, 50% Eos, and 30% something new and different)



I'll probably add more questions later today or tomorrow, but I don't have much more time right now.


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## lieperjp (Mar 19, 2009)

Not necessarily for Sarah, but what is the street price for one of these?

Does it do touch screens like the ION and the EOS?
Edit: Found the answer... It's optional.


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## photoatdv (Mar 19, 2009)

Again not necessarily for Sarah...
It says LTP channel faders... is there a way to set them as HTP like the express? It would really be a bear to always have to use LTP for inexperienced techs with all conventionals.

The one other thing that would be an issue for me is only one fader pair, I almost always use AB and CD on the express (even though it is really just a single cuelist that can be played on both)

I would LOVE to have the ML on Demand thing though for the LEDs-- it would require so much less programminf effort.


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## icewolf08 (Mar 19, 2009)

photoatdv said:


> The one other thing that would be an issue for me is only one fader pair, I almost always use AB and CD on the express (even though it is really just a single cuelist that can be played on both)



I would assume, since it is based on the Eos/Ion software that you don't really need multiple fader pairs. Express could not run simultaneous cues on one fader, but Eos, Ion, Obsession could. So you can run your super long sunrise cyc fade and then run other cues on top of it on the same fader.


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## LightStud (Mar 19, 2009)

This console is indeed the perfect Express replacement, and will inevitably outsell both Ion and Eos.

lieperjp: Pricing and delivery have yet to be determined. Contact your favorite ETC dealer for more information. The actual touch screen monitor is optional, but all four Element versions support them.

A couple of first-impression niggles: 
Because of the way the 40 or 60 handles are used (channel faders 1-40, 41-80, 81-120; or submasters) they are not labeled on the desk itself.
Depending on how the operator works, that four position rotary switch at the top center _could_ get A LOT of use. I would have preferred four lighted buttons (perhaps blinking at me to remind me what mode I'm in). 
The use of Board Tape can easily get very confusing with this desk.
Am I the only one who isn't particularly enamored of "tombstone view"?


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## MNicolai (Mar 19, 2009)

Are there actually four different desks, or two different desks with different channel numbers? I'd hope that you could buy up more channels later on without having to purchase a new desk...


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## sk8rsdad (Mar 19, 2009)

LightStud said:


> Am I the only one who isn't particularly enamored of "tombstone view"?



Tombstones, or something like them, are a necessary evil if you are using touchscreens. It would be nice if they could reduce the spacing between tombstones to free up more space for useful data but I think they are sized for the plastic button inserts that are available on the EOS.

I'm speculating that most of the code comes from EOS/Ion with ML support coming from the virtual encoders already in the EOS software, and maybe a command line interface tweak to be more familiar to Express users.


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## thirdoctive (Mar 19, 2009)

*ETC Element*

ETC Element lighting console


Lighting solutions for Theatre, Film & Television Studios and Architectural spaces : ETC

Edit by DL: this post merged into this thread, and moved from another location.


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## Sony (Mar 19, 2009)

*Re: ETC Element*

It looks like a great console, depending on the price it may be the perfect replacement for the Express.

The only thing I am slightly disappointed with is the lack of even just two or even just ONE encoder wheel. I know it has an intensity wheel which is great! Much better than the Express with it's junky touchpad, but I would like to know how they expect me to Encode my Apollo Right Arm's? Is there going to be an XY Pad on the Touchscreen or am I going to have to punch buttons? I don't expect the 4 Wheels of the Ion, or even the Ion's nice little LCD panel with Encoder info. Unfortunately, I could see programming moving lights like the Right Arm to be even more cumbersome than programming them on the Express. I will however admit that all depends on the execution, if they have already found a suitable solution to this problem then this would be the perfect board for my school's theatre. 

I however loved the Ion, it was a great console but the 6k to 10k price range was a bit much, and we don't need all the features it has. However if the Element has a suitable XY Control surface then it would be a perfect fit for our small theatre. If not, we might just have to drop the 6 to 10 grand on the Ion.

It would be cool if ETC Introduces an Element ML in a couple months, that would be perfect.


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## SteveB (Mar 19, 2009)

MNicolai said:


> Are there actually four different desks, or two different desks with different channel numbers? I'd hope that you could buy up more channels later on without having to purchase a new desk...



4 different desks. 40 or 60 handles, 250 or 500 channels per handle selection.

At some point, being able to buy up channels gets you into Ion range, without any of the advantages of Ion, I.E., encoder wheels, etc... so I wonder if that's the intention and would suspect not, especially if they put the list price between Smartfade and Ion.

I wonder about LTP channel handles, but can understand the logic of wanting to move a handle and take control of whatever the channel is doing elsewhere, where HTP will not do that. I wonder though if the minute you bump the handle up to 01% (so don't accidentally bump the handle) does it instantly have control - at 01%, or does it wait until a matching level is found, at which point it's HTP, THEN LTP. Not sure how this works.

Tombstones can be zoomed in and out, BTW to truncate the view. They work very well on an LCD and I'm glad they kept them.

I'm OK with single fader pair and single GO, as having A/B and C/D on Express/ion was never as useful as one would think - 'Ya really have to understand the logic of Expression Speak to make dual faders work.

I too am curious as to how they replicate encoders on a pointing device. Or maybe it's on the wheel, one attribute at a time, or maybe position on a mouse, everything else on an LCD or thru Channels values. But the whole point is the console is oriented to someone who rarely does a lot of ML programming. They still get the core of the Eos OS, just greatly simplified I assume.

Steve B.


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## derekleffew (Mar 19, 2009)

Setting Non-Intensity Parameters is handled in two ways: 
Pressing the "ML On Demand" button brings up onscreen virtual wheels, which one can drag with an external pointing device (i.e. mouse--but I'd use a trackball, because I prefer trackballs). 
Alternatively (again using a mouse), the Op can drag a dot on an XY grid for positioning, or through a colorspace for color mixing. Much more elegant than the Express/ion.

With this statement:

> ...while also accommodating some LED fixtures and/or a small number of simple moving lights.


ETC seems to be downplaying the fact that the Element can control the same fixtures as Eos--I was told it's the exact same fixture library in both.


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## Sony (Mar 19, 2009)

The XY Grid sounds pretty good, however the dragging encoder wheels onscreen with a mouse sounds cumbersome. Hopefully I'll get to play with one sometime soon to see what it's like.


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## highschooltech (Mar 19, 2009)

I'm interested in using one having used both the ion and eos systems. However i find the appearance very intersting it looks like ETC took and ion and express and crossed them and came out with an element.


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## gafftaper (Mar 20, 2009)

The Strand solution for virtual encoders is holding down a button on the console and rolling the wheel on the mouse. Or to position a mover you can actually drive the mouse around the table top and control both x and y axis... which I really like. The Element data sheet mentions mouse control. So they probably have a very similar solution. Remember that the people using this console are likely to have a couple of I-cues/Right Arms or a few scrollers. They aren't going to be programing a rig of Mac 2k's. So a little cumbersome is no big deal.


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## lieperjp (Mar 20, 2009)

I don't think it would be too much of a problem not having the encoder wheels. If their target customers are the Express crowd, the expectations are a bit lower. Especially since this board is designed for use by volunteers/single operators. Some of those people probably won't even know what an encoder is...


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## awhaley (Mar 20, 2009)

The things that make me most excited about this console are:

1. The HOPE that part cues will be easier to access and perhaps better understood by more designers. I'm hoping we won't have to go into Blind to manipulate the parts of an already programmed cue.

2. The fact that this console DEFINITELY includes a tracking mode really excites me. I usually use my laptop running MagicQ in houses that have an express because I really hate doing a heavily cued show without tracking. Also, since the express finds so much use in academia, if the Element catches on in the same area, it means that a lot of young designers will get access to a tracking console a lot earlier in their careers which would be amazing! Fighting the fear many have for tracking consoles is one of my personal missions.  (Scared of tracking consoles? Feel free to get me on the subject any time!  )

And finally, I really love that it's being designed to simply use a windows laptop as a remote video display. Another thing young designers don't get to do (or get FORCED to do by their instructors) often enough is get away from the console and let the operator program and edit cues for them while they learn to focus on the artistic task of design, not the technical task of operating a light board. The fact that you can now throw your laptop on the tech table with no extra hardware and see what the operator is doing will free up a lot of designers who might have let the board op program the show (their job) if they could just have seen the display from the tech table....

Art Whaley
Art Whaley Design


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## lieperjp (Mar 20, 2009)

awhaley said:


> (Scared of tracking consoles? Feel free to get me on the subject any time!  )
> 
> Art Whaley
> Art Whaley Design



Run a search for "tracking console" and add your thoughts... for posterity. 

For remote connection, how exactly does that work? Just through a network?


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## gafftaper (Mar 20, 2009)

lieperjp said:


> For remote connection, how exactly does that work? Just through a network?



I don't know for sure how it's working with Element but with Ion/Eos you load the software and then plug in a dongle. The dongle was free with registration... I had the feeling they might start charging for them. Then you just connect to the data network and you can watch everything.


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## jmabray (Mar 20, 2009)

*Re: ETC Element*


Sony said:


> It would be cool if ETC Introduces an Element ML in a couple months, that would be perfect.



They already have it. It's called the Ion....


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## Sony (Mar 20, 2009)

*Re: ETC Element*


jmabray said:


> They already have it. It's called the Ion....



Thats not at all what I meant, I would just like an Element with only one or two Encoder wheels for just pan and tilt, thats all. Without going full blown Ion, maybe a couple hundred dollars more than the basic Element but not as much as and Ion. This is what they did with the Smartfade and the Smartfade ML, if they could do it with the Element it would be perfect!

I just find it weird that they can put Encoder wheels on the tiny little Smartfade but can't stick a couple on the Element. Obviously the people who order the "Element ML" would be the ones who know they need encoder wheels and they know how to use them, like me.


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## awhaley (Mar 20, 2009)

I'm looking forward to seeing how the RVM works. The abstract for the console does say that it works over network, and I'm hoping it's as simple as connecting the laptop and going. Free dongles are nice... but for small venues, which are the target for this console, I don't see any real reason to require a dongle for RVM features.

Art


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## gafftaper (Mar 20, 2009)

*Re: ETC Element*


Sony said:


> Thats not at all what I meant, I would just like an Element with only one or two Encoder wheels for just pan and tilt, thats all. Without going full blown Ion, maybe a couple hundred dollars more than the basic Element but not as much as and Ion. This is what they did with the Smartfade and the Smartfade ML, if they could do it with the Element it would be perfect!
> 
> I just find it weird that they can put Encoder wheels on the tiny little Smartfade but can't stick a couple on the Element. Obviously the people who order the "Element ML" would be the ones who know they need encoder wheels and they know how to use them, like me.



I really doubt it. If you NEED encoder wheels then this isn't the console for you. This console is for theaters that rent a gobo rotator once a year and that's about it. The SmartfadeML is specifically targeted at the DJ/Small club market. Element makes no sense for that market. 

I've got 6 I-cues, 4 Right Arms, and 20 Sea Changers I run with my encoderless Strand Classic Palette. I've found using the mouse to reposition moving units VERY easy and natural feeling. And with things like color matching and gobo rotator profiles I don't see a need for encoders with my limited inventory... and I'm more advanced than the target market for this console. I think Element will be just fine as it is... especially if it keeps the street price down in the $3k-$4k range.


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## icewolf08 (Mar 20, 2009)

*Re: ETC Element*


Sony said:


> Thats not at all what I meant, I would just like an Element with only one or two Encoder wheels for just pan and tilt, thats all. Without going full blown Ion, maybe a couple hundred dollars more than the basic Element but not as much as and Ion. This is what they did with the Smartfade and the Smartfade ML, if they could do it with the Element it would be perfect!
> 
> I just find it weird that they can put Encoder wheels on the tiny little Smartfade but can't stick a couple on the Element. Obviously the people who order the "Element ML" would be the ones who know they need encoder wheels and they know how to use them, like me.



Ok, here we go. The end user asked for a console to fit in between SmartFade and Ion, and as soon as it is released, we want something different? No single console is going to be perfect for everyone, but the manufacturers aren't going to build consoles tailored to each user. 

Element is going to be a great fit for the people who whined and complained about not having a console that fits the bill between Ion and Smartfade. They asked for a console that didn't have all the bells and whistles of Ion, but was more functional than Smartfade, well here it is. Guess what, all those Express(ion) users who upgrade to Element are really going to be in for a shock when find out how amazing different from Express(ion) and more similar to Ion it is. If you want to control moving lights you will be able to hook up a mouse or a touchscreen. If you need more sophisticated control then you don't buy Element, you buy Ion.

Consider, as we have discussed many a time in other threads, Express used to cost upwards of $5K (when it was new). That is about equivalent to spending $8K in 2007. I realize that given the economic situation of this country it is harder to justify large capital purchases, but Ion is really not that far off in price from a replacement for even a basic Express(ion).

Ultimately, when it comes down to it the output functionality of an Ion 1K and the highest end Element is pretty darn similar. The software is nearly identical, the biggest difference that most people will see is the buttons on the panel. Like I said before, if you need more power than Element, you buy Ion.

It really amazes me how stubborn people are in this industry (not directed at any one person). For the first time in over 10 years we are seeing major upgrades that are severely needed in the console industry, and what happens? The people want to go back to what they had. Heaven forbid we should advance our industry. As I have said many times, when you make a large capital purchase like a lighting controller, you want it to be somewhat futureproof. Just because you don't use some features now doesn't mean you won't in the future. If you think you [will] need more than what a lower end console is offering, get the higher end console, don't complain that the low end doesn't do what you want it to.

I am sorry for the rant, but it really bugs me that in the face of the progression of technology we hear so many complaints and criticisms. We are looking at long overdue updates to the technology we rely on, this is a good thing! If a console doesn't do all that you need it to, don't complain about it, buy the console that does do what you need it to!


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## Sony (Mar 20, 2009)

*Re: ETC Element*

I guess, it really depends for me how well they execute the whole XY Axis movement thing. We'll see, like I said before in a previous post, if the the XY Axis movement is easy enough then I have no issues with mouse control, it all depends on the execution.


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## xander (Mar 20, 2009)

I haven't seen/heard anything about it except what I read on the ETC website, but I think that this is an amazing innovation. It gives the industry what they need/wanted: a lower end console with hands on fader control while still having LTP channel control and tracking. LTP and tracking are the way of the future (and present), but people are inhibited in the ETC world mostly because if you want those you have to lose your channel faders and go expensive. This is a smart move for ETC because there are consoles out there from other manufacturers offering basically the same thing; they probably would have lost some loyal ETC customers if this didn't come soon enough. My only wish for this console would be a trackball instead of a wheel or trackpad. A ball would make navigating the screens easy and is also great for ML parameter settings. But I have never used the board so I don't know.

$.02

-Tim


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## gafftaper (Mar 20, 2009)

xander said:


> My only wish for this console would be a trackball instead of a wheel or trackpad. A ball would make navigating the screens easy and is also great for ML parameter settings. But I have never used the board so I don't know.



Remember to stop thinking of this new generation of light boards as the old proprietary custom built devices. It's really just a PC in a case with a fancy custom made control surface that plugs into the PC via USB . SO, the beauty is if you want a track ball just go down to your local computer shop, buy one for $30 and plug it into a USB port on the back. To back up or cary files around, just pop a USB flash drive in the back. Just about any USB device you can think of will work with this new generation of consoles.


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## cdub260 (Mar 20, 2009)

gafftaper said:


> Remember to stop thinking of this new generation of light boards as the old proprietary custom built devices. It's really just a PC in a case with a fancy custom made control surface that plugs into the PC via USB . SO, the beauty is if you want a track ball just go down to your local computer shop, buy one for $30 and plug it into a USB port on the back. To back up or cary files around, just pop a USB flash drive in the back. Just about any USB device you can think of will work with this new generation of consoles.



Does that mean I can plug in my USB lava lamp that I got at LDI 2006 and it'll work?


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## icewolf08 (Mar 20, 2009)

cdub260 said:


> Does that mean I can plug in my USB lava lamp that I got at LDI 2006 and it'll work?



Yes, and it would work with a Strand 300 or 500i as well (as that is all the USB is good for on those, power)


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## lieperjp (Mar 20, 2009)

cdub260 said:


> Does that mean I can plug in my USB lava lamp that I got at LDI 2006 and it'll work?



I will have to get one of the USB coffee mug warmers I sell at my store... 

I really hope I can push our TD to buy one in a year or two...


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## docblume (Mar 20, 2009)

*Re: ETC Element*


Sony said:


> Thats not at all what I meant, I would just like an Element with only one or two Encoder wheels for just pan and tilt, thats all. Without going full blown Ion, maybe a couple hundred dollars more than the basic Element but not as much as and Ion.



Since most of the marketing people are off at the trade show, I'll do a bit of a response to this. While this might not be exactly what you are looking for, Element will allow you to plug in a trackball or mouse and a user can use switch that pointing device into a mode that can control pan and tilt. That would probably be the easiest solution for those needs, and works a heck of a lot better than the Express touchpad ever did. And I know a number of our users have asked for the trackball/mouse functionality on Eos and Ion as well, and those consoles have encoders. (And the support for this will be in the 1.5 release of the software.  ). 

The trackball/mouse option isn't going to be best option for everyone, but it is another solution available outside of the Element ML controls.

-Doc


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## JackMVHS (Mar 21, 2009)

*Re: ETC Element*

Quick question...

I haven't been in theatre lighting for very long, but I have picked up a lot of knowledge. This will probably be a simple question to answer.

What is the advantage of multiple cue lists/define cue list so that I'm thinking of the correct thing?

thanks!


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## Sony (Mar 21, 2009)

*Re: ETC Element*


docblume said:


> Since most of the marketing people are off at the trade show, I'll do a bit of a response to this. While this might not be exactly what you are looking for, Element will allow you to plug in a trackball or mouse and a user can use switch that pointing device into a mode that can control pan and tilt. That would probably be the easiest solution for those needs, and works a heck of a lot better than the Express touchpad ever did. And I know a number of our users have asked for the trackball/mouse functionality on Eos and Ion as well, and those consoles have encoders. (And the support for this will be in the 1.5 release of the software.  ).
> 
> The trackball/mouse option isn't going to be best option for everyone, but it is another solution available outside of the Element ML controls.
> 
> -Doc



Thank you Doc! If that is true then I have no issues, a USB Mouse Trackball with direct control would be great! 

As for everyone else, I'm sorry for voicing my complaints...but this is a forum for DISCUSSION...god help that I actually discuss something I personally perceive as a possible problem. You guys are all hailing this console as if it's the rebirth of Christ in the 21st Century and attacking me because I might see ONE small problem with that theory. I also hate how everyone keeps saying "If you need encoders then go get an Ion!" when the fact is, I only have 4 Apollo Right Arm's, 16 SmartColor Scrollers and 2 Gobo Rotators, and programming movement for those things do not justify spending 3 to 4 more grand on the next level up of console. Now if I had a couple MAC 250's or Elation Moving Heads then yes, I would grab the Ion. However what I have been saying this whole time is that if the Element has a suitable Control Surface for XY movement (Which many of you say it DOES HAVE, which would make my argument moot) then it is the perfect console for me. However if it does not, and it is a pain to program even just the 4 Right Arm's I have like it was on the Express. Then I think it would be a good idea for ETC to market an ML version for 500 to 1000 dollars more for people like me who only need 1 or 2 encoders or something to just program a few Right Arm's but don't need all the fancy features of an Ion. 

However Doc has answered my question most thoroughly and if what he says is true then I have nothing to worry about and my paranoia is truly unfounded. Please drop any further discussion on this topic as it seems to have only stirred up trouble.


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## dvsDave (Mar 21, 2009)

ETC Element Demo

Here is the demo with Sarah Clausen that I shot yesterday. Hopefully this will answer some questions that have been asked.

[blip]AfTYIpWBYw[/blip]

I uploaded this on blip.tv(top) and on vimeo (bottom) Which do you like better?

[vimeo]3807323[/vimeo]


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## Sayen (Mar 21, 2009)

For smaller venues, this is what a lot of us are looking for, even if it's just to supplement another console. Thanks for posting the video Dave.


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## icewolf08 (Mar 21, 2009)

dvsDave said:


> ETC Element Demo
> 
> Here is the demo with Sarah Clausen that I shot yesterday. Hopefully this will answer some questions that have been asked.



Dave, that was a great thing, we need to find a way to get more content like that on CB!


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## LightingPenguin (Mar 21, 2009)

dvsDave said:


> ETC Element Demo
> 
> Here is the demo with Sarah Clausen that I shot yesterday. Hopefully this will answer some questions that have been asked.



Thanks Dvs, that was a great video to show off this console. I think that this is really the perfect replacement for an Express(ion). "The tools are they", and they've been put to use perfectly.


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## beachcombah15 (Mar 21, 2009)

Bravo to Sarah and all those at ETC who have come out with another great console! I myself, being an Ion user, am looking forward to getting a little time with the Element. I really do think it is great that more and more people/students will be able to adjust to/learn the fine qualities of tracking without having to use more complex/more expensive boards.


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## thirdoctive (Mar 21, 2009)

Have they posted an OLE for the console yet? Would like to take a look at the software and see how it works.


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## jmabray (Mar 21, 2009)

As the console itself hasn't been released, no, no OLE is up for it. I am sure that it will be as soon as the desk starts shipping.


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## sk8rsdad (Mar 21, 2009)

I anticipate an OLE will come out with EOS/Ion 1.5 which I believe is slipping into April, according to some posts over at etcconnect.com. That's a guess based on the Element sharing the same code base as EOS/Ion.

I also anticipate they will eventually rename their forum from "EOS (and Ion)" to "EOS, Ion, and Element". Remember you heard it hear first.


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## willbb123 (Mar 21, 2009)

This looks like the perfect upgrade from my theaters Expression 3.
I might of missed it, but I sat through and EOS/ION training and they have a feature for moving lights and scrollers, that look at the next cue and move them where they need to be before the light comes up. Does anyone know if this is also in this console?


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## jvelstob (Mar 21, 2009)

awww. Baby Ion.

This is totally the missing link in the ETC Chain. (Between the Smartfade and the Ion.)


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## xander (Mar 21, 2009)

gafftaper said:


> Remember to stop thinking of this new generation of light boards as the old proprietary custom built devices. It's really just a PC in a case with a fancy custom made control surface that plugs into the PC via USB . SO, the beauty is if you want a track ball just go down to your local computer shop, buy one for $30 and plug it into a USB port on the back. To back up or cary files around, just pop a USB flash drive in the back. Just about any USB device you can think of will work with this new generation of consoles.



I know that you can attach a USB trackball. I was saying that I wanted it on the console. I think ETC is just anti trackball, which is fine. That would just be my preference.


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## gafftaper (Mar 21, 2009)

thirdoctive said:


> Have they posted an OLE for the console yet? Would like to take a look at the software and see how it works.



I believe I read somewhere that ETC was scrambling to get Element mostly functional for USITT. You notice Sarah made a comment in the demo video about something not being quite finished. This is very common for new product releases. It will most likely be 2 or 3 months before they actually have it done and ready to ship... and we probably won't see the OLE until shortly before the console is done as they are likely to be tweaking software up until shortly before Element is ready to ship. 


xander said:


> I think ETC is just anti trackball, which is fine.



I believe you are correct. Rumor has it Steve Terry is a charter member of the CATUT (Coalition Against The Use of Trackballs).


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## derekleffew (Mar 21, 2009)

The console is two days old, several months from shipping, and you want an OLE? I suspect the Offline Editor/Client version (with purchased dongle) will be Eos/Ion Off-line/Client Software v1.4.4 (PC); Eos/Ion Off-line Software v1.4.3 (Mac) [or more likely the v1.6.x edition of these]; since the console shares so much already with the Eos/Ion.

edit: As for CUTAT, I love trackballs as computer pointing devices, but find both them and mice awkward for controlling pan and tilt. They're okay for mirror fixtures, but it's too easy to get a moving head turned 'round the wrong way (and I didn't notice a <flip> button on the Ele). P/T should be the Etch-A-Sketch rotary encoders we're all used to, just like the HogII/III, GMA, et cetera.

edit2: Quote:
Originally Posted by *icewolf08* 
 
_Dave, that was a great thing, we need to find a way to get more content like that on CB!_

I agree wholeheartedly. We need to send Dave to attend every industry tradeshow. *Kelite* is going to ProLight + Sound show in Frankfurt April 1-4. I wonder if there's room in his checked baggage for *dvsDave*?

Quote:
Originally Posted by *willbb123* 
 
_...
I might of missed it, but I sat through and EOS/ION training and they have a feature for moving lights and scrollers, that look at the next cue and move them where they need to be before the light comes up. Does anyone know if this is also in this console?_

Mark cues. Yes it's there. Aka Move-in-Black, Automove-while-Dark; one shouldn't consider a console that doesn't have this feature, particularly for theatre use.


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## Sony (Mar 22, 2009)

Awesome video! It answered all my questions quite thouroghly! Thank you dvsDave and Sarah Clausen for that! Looks like there may be an Element in my college's future!


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## Esoteric (Mar 22, 2009)

I love trackballs. I hate controlling any moving fixtures pan/tilt any other way (I learned on a track ball and fins it much faster than pan/tilt encoders.

Mike


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## dvsDave (Mar 22, 2009)

Followup, yes, it does support an external trackball. There is a mode for it. I asked about being able to map the trackwheels on the mice or trackballs to different functions and they said they would look into it. The console will ship with version 1.6 software in the summer. The price should be comparable to the old 24/48 and 48/96 Express boards  

Any other questions? Oh, it will have two discrete DVI outputs (the demo unit had a pigtail splitting the DVI outputs, but the final won't use a pigtail) and 1 d-sub output. There were 6 USB inputs (5 on the back, and one on the front near the top right).


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## JackMVHS (Mar 22, 2009)

dvsDave said:


> The price should be comparable to the old 24/48 and 48/96 Express boards



How much did the Express boards cost new?


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## SteveB (Mar 22, 2009)

JackMVHS said:


> How much did the Express boards cost new?



I paid $4500 for an Express 48 in '99. That's about $6000 today.

SB


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## Footer (Mar 22, 2009)

SteveB said:


> I paid $4500 for an Express 48 in '99. That's about $6000 today.
> 
> SB



Thats about what I was rough quoted. I was told the big Element console would sell for about a grand less then the ion. Basically, saying if you need the handles and don't need encoders the element is for you. If you don't, go with the Ion.


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## gafftaper (Mar 22, 2009)

The list price on an Express 24/48 last spring was $5,250... with a street price down in the $4k's. 

Street price on Smartfade is $1100-$1400. Street price on Ion without a submaster panel is around $5,500 ($6500 with a 2x10 fader wing). Element is clearly designed to fit in the middle. So I think we can expect them to list in the $5k-$6k range and street starting in the mid $4k's. 

As always pricing varies wildly depending on a variety of factors see this article for an explanation of why this happens.


Footer said:


> Basically, saying if you need the handles and don't need encoders the element is for you. If you don't, go with the Ion.


That completely sums up this console. It's designed for people who want a serious theater console and need handles, not encoders. If you want both you can have it but you have to buy a Ion with a wing.


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## JackMVHS (Mar 22, 2009)

Thank you!

I think I have some convincing to do at school by next fall...

This console would be great for us!
We need the cues, channel faders, and submaster faders, but don't have any need for encoder wheels! Plus I want to get rid of our Lehigh Millennium... Ugh.


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## Grog12 (Mar 22, 2009)

*FINALLY*


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## jmac (Mar 24, 2009)

gafftaper said:


> The list price on an Express 24/48 last spring was $5,250... with a street price down in the $4k's.
> 
> Street price on Smartfade is $1100-$1400. Street price on Ion without a submaster panel is around $5,500 ($6500 with a 2x10 fader wing). Element is clearly designed to fit in the middle. So I think we can expect them to list in the $5k-$6k range and street starting in the mid $4k's.
> 
> ...



I was told the Element would list @ approx. $5,500, but not sure which configuration that would be for.... This seems to fit in with what you are estimating.


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## bhallerm (Apr 30, 2009)

Just a quick note at those looking at the Element. I got a quote for three of the four models yesterday for our school. The largest one (60 fader/500 channel) was quoted at $5633 for delivery, install and 3 hours of instruction.

BJH


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## jmabray (May 1, 2009)

List pricing was announced today:

* Element 40, 250 Channels - $5,500
* Element 40, 500 Channels - $6,000
* Element 60, 250 Channels - $7,000
* Element 60, 500 Channels - $7,500

To learn more about the Element Console, visit ETC’s mini website at Lighting solutions for Theatre, Film & Television Studios and Architectural spaces : ETC. To order you Element now, visit the dealer section of their website to local the closes one to you.


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## gafftaper (May 2, 2009)

A little analysis on pricing: 

An Element 60/500 lists at $7500 and Bhallerm was quoted $5600 including: delivery, "install" (could be nothing could be a lot), and 3 hours training. 

List price on an Express 24/48 was $5250. List price on an Element 40/250 is $5500. An Express typically was available for $4k or less. ... do the math. 

List price on an Ion without a wing panel is $6750 but several people here claim to have purchased one for about $5k. 

What does this all mean? How much will an Element cost me? It's hard to say. Read this article on how things are priced in the industry for more info... then get a price quote.

Also for comparison pricing: Strand's list prices from May 08, they may have changed, dealers may also be able to cut you a better deal again see the article and get price quotes. These are for 100 control channels, with more available for an upgrade fee. 
Palette Basic = List Price $5,850.00
Preset Palette 32/64 Console = List Price $6,250.00


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## jmabray (May 3, 2009)

A clarification on the above:

ION is no longer list priced in the price book. It is now a POA item. (Much like the Expression was for years)


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## Sayen (May 5, 2009)

Word of mouth says the ION shot up in price as well, around $1000, now that ETC can offer a replacement for the Expression. Glad I already bought mine.


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## bdkdesigns (May 6, 2009)

This is from BMI's blog found here:

We just got word that ETC has released pricing for the new Element Console! BMI Supply Proudly Offers The Following Prices:
Contact your sales manager for package pricing!

Element 40, 250 Channels … … … $ 4,087.50
Element 40, 500 Channels … … … $ 4,462.50
Element 60, 250 Channels … … … $ 5,062.50
Element 60, 500 Channels … … … $ 5,437.50

In conjunction with the release of the new pricing ETC has announced that all ION consoles will now be priced on application. According to ETC’s most recent news: “Ion pricing is also increasing significantly…”. All of these ION changes begin July 1st.

ION pricing good until July 1st 2009

ETC ION 1000 … … … … … … … … … … … … $ 5,062.50
ETC Universal Fader Wing 2x10 … … … … … $ 900.00
ETC Universal Fader Wing 2x20… … … … … $ 1,725.00
ETC Net3 Radio Focus Remote … … … … … $ 1,875.00


If you were thinking about purchasing an ION now is the time.


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## llecount (May 6, 2009)

This may have been covered already, so forgive me if it has been..
Will the Net3 Radio Focus Remote be compatible with the Element? ETC's website says it's only compatible with the Ion, EOS and Congo line.. didn't know if anyone here had heard anything about the Element being added to that list too.


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## jmabray (May 6, 2009)

I have no way of knowing for sure, but I would imagine that it would be compatible with the Element. The software for all 3 consoles (EOS, ION, Element) have the same basis.

I don't think that they would make another different Remote Focus Unit for this desk, but then again I have been wrong before....


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## sclausenETC (May 7, 2009)

Yes, the Net3 RFR is compatible with Element. As is the Phone Remote and the upcoming iRFR.

Thanks -

Sarah

Sarah Clausen
Controls Product Manager
ETC, Inc.


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## JackMVHS (May 9, 2009)

Can someone please explain to me what a cue list is, or why you would need more than one?

Thank you,
~JackMVHS


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## jmabray (May 9, 2009)

It's exactly what it sounds like it is... A list of your cues - usually in the order in which they are run.

Lets say you have a straight play with an interior box set and a huge picture window upstage center.

Now over the course of Act 1 you want the sky visible in that picture window to go from late afternoon to early evening - a sunset, if you will. That is easily accomplished with a cue that lasts the entirety of the act, right?

Ok, now in addition to that, you have several entrances and practicals on stage turning on and off through the course of the act. You can easily do that with cues on your lightboard as well, right? But if you are already doing the sunset cue, it can cause some problems.

The easiest way to handle this is with multiple cue lists. Cue list 1 is your lights up/lights down/entrance/exit cue list and cue list 2 is your sunset cue. They are both running at the same time. And since you probably won't have the same fixtures in both lists, you won't have any problem. 

Does that make sense?


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## JackMVHS (May 9, 2009)

Yeah, that makes sense, thanks.

Would that be a deciding factor for purchasing a new board for a high school though? I know that that is a rather general question, but should a high school buy the element or try to upgrade to an ion. Just wondering what your opinion is, thanks!


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## icewolf08 (May 9, 2009)

jmabray said:


> It's exactly what it sounds like it is... A list of your cues - usually in the order in which they are run.
> 
> Lets say you have a straight play with an interior box set and a huge picture window upstage center.
> 
> ...



Your example here isn't exactly true. On most tracking consoles (Eos, Ion, Element, Obsession, Strand 300/500/Palette/LP) you can have multiple cues running concurrently from one cue stack. So you could run your 30 minute sunrise cue and then run subsequent cues on top of it as long as no subsequent cue has commands for the channels that make the sunrise. I believe this is called "Move-fade." These consoles allow you to run multiple cues on top of eachother on the same fader pair/GO button. Usually this works as an LTP operation, so the latest cue that has a command for a channel with have priority for that channel.

On consoles like Express(ion) and Leviton/NSI models, they are inherently "cue-only" consoles (even if you use the TRACK button). Each cue functions as an "All-Fade" or block cue, so every channel is commanded in each cue. Thus why you have two fader pairs so that you could run a long cue or subroutine on one while running other cues on the other.

Since I have worked primarily on Obsession II and Strand 300/500 consoles I have not yet found a real need for multiple cue lists. I am sure that if I had that option I would find a use for it, but for most theatre situations you probably won't need it (especially in a high school). However, given the sunset example, Element (or any current generation console) would handle it just fine without multiple cue lists.

One of the useful things that you can do with multiple cue lists (at least on the new Strand consoles) is use them as effects. So you can record a separate cue list and then run it like an effect, which I think is very cool in that you don't have to use a separate effects engine and different displays and commands to create an effect. I don't know if you can do this on the new ETC consoles, but it wouldn't surprise me if you can.


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## JackMVHS (May 9, 2009)

Thanks for the clarification icewolf08.

I think that I also read that multiple cue lists could be used to control several "areas", such as your stage and another area, maybe backstage or lobby areas. That is, if you have those areas on dimmers.


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## jmabray (May 10, 2009)

I would have to know how your highschool worked and what type of productions you did and a lot more information before I could make a reccomendation.


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## jmabray (May 10, 2009)

Ice you are absolutely right. However, my example is just one way you can use multiple cue lists. It makes for an easy explanation of the concept is all. It also makes it easier for some users to keep track of what's happening on stage. 

Another way to use them - Dance Concerts.

Lets say your high school is hosting a local dance studio recital. During the rehearsal period you have about 20 minutes to see the number and write some basic cues. However, you don't know the exact performance order yet. (Or you are dealing with a director who likes to change that order repeatedly up till opening night) Put each number on it's own cue list. Then you just have to link the lists in whatever order the show actually is going to run.

There are several ways to use the EOS/ION/Element software much like there are several ways to skin a cat....


*No cats were harmed in the writing of this email. (except for mine when he wouldn't get off the keyboard so I could type...)


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## derekleffew (May 10, 2009)

JackMVHS, jmabray has answered your question, and icewolf08 has tried to help him out the hole he dug himself. See the thread http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/lighting/8694-expression-3-c-d-fader-uses.html#post102024 for more examples. 

icewolf08 said:


> ...On consoles like Express(ion) and Leviton/NSI models, they are inherently "cue-only" consoles (even if you use the TRACK button). Each cue functions as an "All-Fade" or block cue, so every channel is commanded in each cue. Thus why you have two fader pairs so that you could run a long cue or subroutine on one while running other cues on the other. ...


Not entirely accurate, at least in the case of Expression 3. From the Expression 3 User Manual v3.1: under *LTP Channels*: 

> An LTP channel fades in the foreground if its level moves to a new level in the next cue. When a channel is fading in the foreground and no change in that channel is commanded by the next cue, the fade continues in the background. A cue stops running in the background when the last of its channels stops fading in the background. Up to 600 cues may run in the background at once.


I've heard this expressed as "128 simultaneous background fades," but that seems contradictory to "Up to 600 cues may run in the background at once." Sarah, Anne?

Coming from a theatre lighting background, where cues are written and played back linearly, the idea of multiple cue lists is often a foreign concept. If one looks at concert lighting using moving lights, one can immediately see the benefits. One cuelist can be the "main," perhaps only having intensity and position information. Another may contain only color information, and another only strobe effects. While busking a show, complex color or strobe cues can be played back in any order, mixing and matching as desired. A ballyhoo cue on another list. To stop the bally, just release the list. Go and stop as many times as needed. Another good use is to control the ubiquitous Hazer. In its own cue list, one push of the <Go> turns on the hazer, another <Go> turns it off. Or a cuelist specifically for Houselights would prevent their inadvertent execution, demonstrated here: http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/...use-lights-recorded-full-into.html#post131396.

One needn't fault the Element for having only one cuelist. It's not intended to run lots of moving lights in a "live" concert setting. As Sarah said in the video, if multiple cuelists are important, the Ion is likely a better fit. But the Element is probably appropriate for at least 90% of the high school market.


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## SteveB (May 10, 2009)

A typical theatrical cuing console. from the olden days, allowed a single sequential numbering scheme - I.E., you started at 1 (or possibly .5) and sequentially progressed thru the maximum allowable numbers of the console, which might be 999 or so. The analogy I like uses the term "Stack" (which is used by many R&R consoles) similar to airplanes landing at an airport.

Multiple cue lists change this in that you can have a Q1 in Cue List 1, and a Q1 in Cue List 2, etc... with a console such as Eos/Ion having a variety of functions to allow a list to assert and or release controls of channels used in multiple lists.

A clever use, as it was described to me, was a major dance company on tour with a repertory of hundreds of dance pieces. In olden days, some creative accounting had to be accomplished to number the cues, with "Revelations" being on Show 1/Starting Cue 1, "Swing" on Show 5/Starting Cue 101, "Swine Lake" on Show 2/Starting Cue 51, etc.... New'ish consoles (Obsession) had hard drives and could store most of the rep on the HD. Older consoles used floppies and care needed to be taken to keep track of which disk was being recorded to and what was loaded.

With multiple cue lists, ALL the dance pieces cues can start at 1, and you simply name the cue list. Makes life easier for the SM to call as well.

Steve B.


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## bhallerm (May 22, 2009)

So, I just got the OK to order an Element for our high school theater to replace our Colortran Innovator 48/96. I sent in the order for a Element 60 Fader, 500 channel with the control software. Jack, I know you are considering the Element. One big thing to note. ETC told my dealer that once you place the order, delivery is sitting at about 75 days out. So, I'm looking at late July or so before I see it.

BJH


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## avalentino (May 22, 2009)

The background fade descriptions for the Express/ion product line was the way the desk dealt with fade-within-fade requirements. The basic nature of a preset desk is that channel destinations (end states) are recalled at each Go command. So, if you were trying to fade a light over a long time frame, each time you pressed the go button, the end state for that light was recalculated and retimed. By adding the LTP background fades, the Express/ion desk was able to accomplish lights fading from different cue commands at the same time. 

This isn't needed on a tracking/move fade desk. It is inherently fade-within-fade. So, if a light gets an instruction to fade in cue 1 in 10 counts, as long as cue 2 doesn't give that light a new instruction, it will fade in 10 counts, regardless of when cue 2 is called.

Element does have a single cue list - as did Obsession. This never prohibited Obsession from being used on things like Alvin Ailey, New York City Ballet, etc. As Steve said, if you want each dance number to begin at cue one, you can build a show file for each, and then open the show file between numbers. Since the current output of the desk is held when a file is opened, this is seamless to the audience and the talent.

The design watchword for Element was simplicity! 

Hope that helps guys!

Anne Valentino
Eos Product Line Manager
ETC


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## SteveB (May 22, 2009)

avalentino said:


> if you want each dance number to begin at cue one, you can build a show file for each, and then open the show file between numbers. Since the current output of the desk is held when a file is opened, this is seamless to the audience and the talent.



But to old timers like me, who can recall when it was white knuckle moment dumping the current show for a new file, this was never a great choice. Not to mention the paperwork involved keeping track of what piece is where... Shelly has a chapter on this in his book. My experiences with Emphasis have been that opening new files IS seamless and have never had that white knuckle feeling, and Eos/Ion makes it even easier.

Steve B,


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## Sideburns (May 23, 2009)

My school (bhallerm's) just ordered an element, which is certainly a step in the right direction, but I was wondering just how that itty-bitty dial to switch between channel pages would work out. Is there a snowballs chance in hell that this will have motorised faders? We have an LS-9 soundboard sporting them (which is just grand for switching through the layers...) and it would make things a tad easier when running in tight situations.


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## derekleffew (May 23, 2009)

Sideburns said:


> ...Is there a snowball's chance in hell that this will have motorized faders? ...


Nope. Not even that much chance. Flying Faders are expensive! and the goal was to keep the price point of the Element affordable.


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