# Question for TDs of high schools or high school crew members...



## NHStech (Jul 30, 2011)

1) When you do outside shows (i.e., not your choir, band, etc) that pay to rent your venue, does your student stage crew get paid?
2) If so, how much?
3) If you do pay, how do you relate it (if at all) to federal or state minimum wage laws?
4) Do they have to have work permits?
5) Any other pertinent info about such a situation.
The reason I ask is because our school has a tradition of paying students for such events, but the pay has been the same for the last 30 years (literally). I have been TD for 5 and wish to bring us into the 21st century. I want to make sure that a) I have the option of paying or not, and b) if I do continue to pay, that I am not going to get massively caught up in bureacracy and this law and that, c) but at the same time, I do not want to break laws. 
If you are a high school crew member, and you know answers to these questions, feel free to chime in.


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## erosing (Jul 30, 2011)

NHStech said:


> 1) When you do outside shows (i.e., not your choir, band, etc) that pay to rent your venue, does your student stage crew get paid?
> 2) If so, how much?
> 3) If you do pay, how do you relate it (if at all) to federal or state minimum wage laws?
> 4) Do they have to have work permits?
> ...


 
I can answer from what my high school's policy was about 5 years ago and before that.

Yes, students were always paid, if I remember correctly it was $8-$10 per hour, depending on the rental.

Yes, work permits were required.

Other notes, it was on average 4-5 rentals per year until my senior year which had significantly less, most of the time they were in April-June, but there were a few exceptions. All rentals from outside groups paid students, "sponsored" school events/fundraisers were not paid, they were volunteer based, and ha no effect on anything, as in working them didn't officially put you higher on a list to work rentals. Also, any students working outside events had to be in good academic standing, and were technically treated the same as extra-curricular activities (out sick - can't work tonight, for example).

Last I heard, the policies have not changed much, but I believe they get paid a little more now.


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## NHSTechCrew (Jul 30, 2011)

NHStech said:


> 1) When you do outside shows (i.e., not your choir,
> band, etc) that pay to rent your venue, does your student stage crew get
> paid?
> 2) If so, how much?
> ...


 


1)Yes if the event is not schooled sponsored or the school is getting paid then they are required to have at least 1 student and administrator. 
2)I get paid 9 dollars an hour
3) unknown
4)I believe not
5)Our school has a calendar that students can sign up on. It is true that the more experience you are the longer hour jobs and harder jobs fall in your lap.


-Patrick


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## chausman (Jul 30, 2011)

1) When you do outside shows (i.e., not your choir, band, etc) that pay to rent your venue, does your student stage crew get paid? Yes
2) If so, how much? $10 per hour
3) If you do pay, how do you relate it (if at all) to federal or state minimum wage laws? This does comply with Washington L&I laws (For the most part)
4) Do they have to have work permits? I don't believe so
5) Any other pertinent info about such a situation. Outside Shows (which for us means outside the district) that would require the theater would pay student techs, an administrator to supervise the student techs, and a custodian to be on site throughout the event. Pay includes setup/teardown for their event.


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## cpf (Jul 30, 2011)

NHStech said:


> 1) When you do outside shows (i.e., not your choir, band, etc) that pay to rent your venue, does your student stage crew get paid?
> 2) If so, how much?
> 3) If you do pay, how do you relate it (if at all) to federal or state minimum wage laws?
> 4) Do they have to have work permits?
> ...


1) Yes
2) I think the going rate is $12/hr, not entirely sure, I'm not involved in that area
3) It's around $3-$4 over the minimum wage (in Alberta)
4) I'm not in a position to answer this
5) I think students actually get paid for school events too, but that might be because there was a shortage of technicians at the get-go so some extra incentive was required.


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## MNicolai (Jul 30, 2011)

1) Yes.
2) $10/hr
3) It's a few dollars above minimum wage.
4) Yes, which the school issues to them after they fill out a form (and take a TB test).
5) We hire students to work what they are capable of working, but otherwise those duties are taken to professional overhires, who make $20/hr. We try to avoid it, but there have been situations where the arts center manager has coordinated with the high school principal to excuse students from classes for work in the arts center, usually for matinees being performed by touring groups for students from other schools in the district.


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## emac (Jul 30, 2011)

Well I personally do not get payed by my school. Mostly because we don't really have a theater that anybody aside from us uses. 

That being said I know that at least one other school does pay their techs when working outside shows.


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## jglodeklights (Jul 30, 2011)

The high school I work with has no need to hire students as they do not rent out their space, currently, and it is also, currently, in construction. 

That said, based on my experiences in the retail world and a little research-
1. Student stage crews should be paid unless students are receiving credit for a class (my opinion). 
2/3. Federal regulations require minimum of $7.25 an hour for FLSA protected jobs, which this type of employment would typically fall under as they are being paid by an enterprise. Should a state have a higher minimum wage, that is what must be adhered to.
4. Work permit regulations vary by state; they are not federally mandated. 
5. 14 and 15 year olds may only work within the hours of 7 am to 7pm, except between June 1 and Labor day when they may work until 9pm. School days they may only work 3 hours, and non school days 8 hours. 18 hours in a school week maximum, 40 in a non school week. Once they reach 16 or older they may work anytime for any number of hours. These are the FEDERAL laws. State laws may be more strict, in which case the stricter law takes effect.


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## TheGuruat12 (Jul 31, 2011)

1) When you do outside shows (i.e., not your choir, band, etc) that pay to rent your venue, does your student stage crew get paid? Yes
2) If so, how much? We don't know yet, but between $7.25 (Arizona minimum) and $12 is my guess.
3) If you do pay, how do you relate it (if at all) to federal or state minimum wage laws? Minimum wage is minimum.
4) Do they have to have work permits? No.
5) Any other pertinent info about such a situation. We are employees of our school district; the district adds our total pay for the hours onto the rental contract and then sends us each a paycheck.


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## chausman (Jul 31, 2011)

jglodeklights said:


> 5. 14 and 15 year olds may only work within the hours of 7 am to 7pm, except between June 1 and Labor day when they may work until 9pm. School days they may only work 3 hours, and non school days 8 hours. 18 hours in a school week maximum, 40 in a non school week. Once they reach 16 or older they may work anytime for any number of hours. These are the FEDERAL laws. State laws may be more strict, in which case the stricter law takes effect.


 
Oh, do I hate *some* of those...
In Washington, I (being 14 (soon 15)) can *work*until 9pm in the summer, 7pm any other time. 3 hours a day for school days, 8 for other days, maximum of 16 hours a week. I am not allowed to work past 8 unless someone over 18 is present (not an issue currently) or be * over 10 feet off the ground or floor level or using a ladder.* This one bugs me, because that seems to exclude a large area of a theater. Oh, and using electric winches us prohibited.

One thing I can do however, is volunteer after 9pm/7pm depending on time of year and then the laws don't apply. So, I just have to clock out at 9 and then we are still legal. (As far as I know)

EDIT: (again, in Washington State) Unless we make $9,000 a year, we are tax exempt.


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## CSCTech (Jul 31, 2011)

We do not do very many outside events, however when we do, the person there does not get paid, officially. 

Now before I explain this I'd like to say that in the last year we have been re-working how things are done and who's allowed to do what, etc. Also this is the first year there has ever been anyone officially in charge of the school's theatre. Since then, a new contract for renting the space has supposedly been in the making. So this all may change with this new season coming up.

When an outside group rents our space they pay for a custodian and minimal fee for the space. Not a dime is shown to tech.

When I say crew, I refer to basically me, or one of two official 'Crew'. Basically how it works is that there are three students who have been professionally trained on all systems and are the primary 'Tech Crew' for all happenings in the theatre. A Stage Crew is assembled on a show to show basis, after that crew is selected from directors or what not, the official crew teaches them what they need to know and assists where needed. One of the members of this official crew is in charge of the rest of the stage crew, and the other two are lighting and sound. 

I do not technically have to be at any outside events, because the school does not pay me to be there and there is not agreement saying the use of lighting and sound is provided. All lighting and sound equipment is locked up. 

However..I know that if I do not attend these events, there will be things damaged and I would also just hate to see a show not go as planned because the group didn't get something they might of been expecting. Plus, I do it for fun and experience anyway.

The groups who come in are the same almost every year and they all are aware we don't get paid to be there so they all do pay a fair amount for our services and assistance so it works out in the end, however having a more official way of doing things would be greatly appreciated and is in the works. 


After having some discussions with the faculty member responsible for making this new contract I believe it was decided, based upon the length/rehearsal time needed/run time of the groups who come in, that it would be $100 flat rate for use of the lighting system plus an operator. $100 flat rate for use of the sound system and operator. And $50 flat rate for follow spot operator (comes with lighting but not with an operator, a separate FS op would be needed depending on the complexity of it, more often then not, the board op can handle it.


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## museav (Jul 31, 2011)

As TheGuruat12 noted, paying students likely makes them employees and that likely introduces other potential implications for both the school and student. The reality is that the total cost for an employee is much more than their pay and may vary in ways that pay would not, for example two people working a certain number of hours may cost much more than a single person working twice as many hours even though the pay is the same.

As others have noted, while it may be good to get some insight on what others do, you really need to get someone conversant with the state and local labor laws. For example, I see several references to the FLSA minimum wage requirements, however it appears that according to FLSA workers under age 20 may be paid as little as $4.25/hour for the first 90 days of work while 'student learners' may be paid 75% of minimum wage, while as noted, state labor laws may prohibit such exceptions to minimum wage laws.

In addition to the type of limitations on the work that can be performed that may be part of the applicable labor laws, requirements by your insurer may also limit the work those under certain ages may perform even if allowed by law.


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## PatrickAngle (Jul 31, 2011)

I'm a member of my High School's student staff.

1. We are paid for all non-production shows. Essentially if the show is not a production of our Drama department, we get paid. So, while we won't be paid for our upcoming production of "Rough Magic", we will be paid for all of the Band concerts, dance recitals, and choir concerts in the upcoming year.

2. We are paid $7.25 an hour, state minimum wage.

3. See 2.

4. Yes. The student never have to deal with it because in Indiana the school must issue the work permit, so our school corporation takes care of all of that for us.

5. Our student staff member are essentially on pay role as custodians, so our corporation does not require a normal custodian to be present. It is also of note that our school corporation has, in the past, paid for hospital visits for work related injury (We own 28 year old sound shells that have sent at least four people to the hospital with possible head injury.)

We typically have to file taxes, as our auditorium is typically booked over 50% of the time most of the year. We also clean every day over the summer, so it is not uncommon for us to make upwards of 8,000 dollars a year.


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## z2oo (Jul 31, 2011)

1) When you do outside shows (i.e., not your choir, band, etc) that pay to rent your venue, does your student stage crew get paid?
*YES, only if they are on the paid crew roster*
2) If so, how much?
*$9 as a Freshman up to $12 as a Senior*
3) If you do pay, how do you relate it (if at all) to federal or state minimum wage laws?
*We use the same system as teachers, and minimum wage is observed*
4) Do they have to have work permits?
*Anyone under age 16 does*
5) Any other pertinent info about such a situation.
*Same payment/check system as teachers, so taxes and minimum wage is observed. If someone joins paid crew after Freshman year they start at $9 and can work their way up.*


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## Sayen (Aug 13, 2011)

I'm fortunate enough to have control over my theater. I schedule rentals, required production meetings with them, and require they hire myself and a student crew. Any non-school event is paid, which includes most district events such as meetings.

Students are paid $10/hour, which is not high but fair enough for their age and a temporary job. The students run everything while I act as a production manager, and rentals are informed that while I will supply a top of the line crew this is still an educational experience. Students have to be district employees, paid hourly, so they have tax deductions from their pay handled like any other employee.

We used to pay them under the table, where the rental would bring an envelope of money and just pass it out. The good part was less paperwork and the kids almost always got paid extra. It's not so much on the legal side, so I had that changed when I was hired on.


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## Tex (Aug 13, 2011)

Sayen said:


> I'm fortunate enough to have control over my theater. I schedule rentals, required production meetings with them, and require they hire myself and a student crew. Any non-school event is paid, which includes most district events such as meetings.
> 
> Students are paid $10/hour, which is not high but fair enough for their age and a temporary job. The students run everything while I act as a production manager, and rentals are informed that while I will supply a top of the line crew this is still an educational experience. Students have to be district employees, paid hourly, so they have tax deductions from their pay handled like any other employee.
> 
> We used to pay them under the table, where the rental would bring an envelope of money and just pass it out. The good part was less paperwork and the kids almost always got paid extra. It's not so much on the legal side, so I had that changed when I was hired on.


 It's the same for me, except my kids get $12/hr.


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## LXPlot (Aug 13, 2011)

1) When you do outside shows (i.e., not your choir, band, etc) that pay to rent your venue, does your student stage crew get paid? Not usually, but there have been times. 
2) If so, how much? Last time it was 30$ for a full length production...but a lot of people who worked it didn't get paid and a lot who didn't do much did.
3) If you do pay, how do you relate it (if at all) to federal or state minimum wage laws? It was pretty disorganized and under the table. A lot of us would've done it for free, or did.
4) Do they have to have work permits? If they're under 16 they should. But the school ignored that.
5) Any other pertinent info about such a situation. Usually, it would be me running something for free, working with a staff member whose job is partially to do that. But in some cases there is something that the school sponsors and ends up paying us. My workplace is a city owned roadhouse less than a block from school, where we do need permits and do make 7.25$ (minimum wage) minus tax. The only reason things get sent to my school is 1) the auditorium is three times as large and 2) they don't have any system that would require them to pay us.


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## Sayen (Aug 13, 2011)

Now, here's a question - is anyone out there paying their students to work choir/band/dance/etc? Thoughts on the issue? We're so busy with our own growing theater activities, and these represent in some cases a very significant interruption with significant demands, that I go back and forth on this all the time. Those groups already have to pay security and custodial, so adding a paid crew member or two is not a significant expense.


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## cpf (Aug 13, 2011)

Sayen said:


> Now, here's a question - is anyone out there paying their students to work choir/band/dance/etc? Thoughts on the issue? We're so busy with our own growing theater activities, and these represent in some cases a very significant interruption with significant demands, that I go back and forth on this all the time. Those groups already have to pay security and custodial, so adding a paid crew member or two is not a significant expense.


 

We actually had quite a mini-scandal over this with a band concert (background: rural small-town school in question is only about 5-600 students last time I asked). The band concert is theoretically a fundraiser (donations, selling water & baked items at intermission, plus DVD sales), but unforeseen by the concert organizers was that they would be charged, by the school, for two student technicians to work the evening. Now, at $12/hour, the visions of dollar signs (albeit small ones) in the organizer's eyes quickly vanished. I'm not sure what the resolution or decision was in that case, but I think there is now a written copy of what had been an unwritten rule that school programs can use the theatre facility at no charge, no matter who's getting paid what.

As for the question of when students get paid, I asked _the powers that be_ about this after my last post, and the answer was that the pay/no pay decision was based on the complexity and prominence of the event, with external (e.g. the alliance that runs the theatre is getting paid for the rental) the events always meriting the $12/hour rate. Examples of this decision in my experience have been that drama productions (many long nights, lots of responsibility) are paid, while assemblies and speakers (one-off, still lots of responsibility) aren't.


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## express (Aug 15, 2011)

1) When you do outside shows (i.e., not your choir, band, etc) that pay to rent your venue, does your student stage crew get paid? Yes
2) If so, how much? $25 per hour
4) Do they have to have work permits? Yes
5) Any other pertinent info about such a situation. Outside shows have to pay the $25 an hour tech fee for every hour that they are in the space, as a tech always has to be there. To be able to get into out PAC, they have to checkin with the maintenance staff, and then check out again, which is how our pay is calculated. Shows from within the school (Choir, band) we get paid $20 and hour, paid by the school. This is just a time sheet signed by the teach in charge of the group thats using the space. My school also has 2 separate theaters, thus, two events can be happening at the same time.


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## focusingthepoint (Aug 18, 2011)

Wow, it sounds like a lot of you get a whole lot more than we do.

1) When you do outside shows (i.e., not your choir, band, etc) that pay to rent your venue, does your student stage crew get paid?
No. On top of the venue rental fee the group does have to pay $25 per hour (or $50 for double overtime if it's outside of the regular school day) to the school's staff member in charge of tech and the auditorium. Fear of bureaucratic complications mean that we as students get paid nothing. However if the staff member does require student help, his deal is that he will feed us. At bare minimum he will order pizza, especially if we are going straight from school to working on the even with no time in-between. If we have time, then he will take us to a nearby restaurant (there are a number of reasonable restaurants in walking distance of the school).

2) If so, how much?
Money, none.
Food? About one meal's worth.

3) If you do pay, how do you relate it (if at all) to federal or state minimum wage laws?
N/A

4) Do they have to have work permits?
N/A

5) Any other pertinent info about such a situation.
While we don't get paid now, when I was in middle school for the few events that we did, we were paid. The teacher there who also was in charge of tech stuff would pay us usually about $10 an event out of his stipend for working it.


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## EustaceM (Nov 23, 2011)

For my high school we didn't get paid for outside events/performances. Those who took technical theatre courses were required to work at least 2-3 events/performances (outside or those produced by the theatre department/school). We signed up to work different events/performances during the semester. We were encouraged to volunteer for those we did not sign up for as well.


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## esmphoto (Nov 23, 2011)

1) When you do outside shows (i.e., not your choir, band, etc) that pay to rent your venue, does your student stage crew get paid? **Yes.**
2) If so, how much? *Minimum wage except me.*
3) If you do pay, how do you relate it (if at all) to federal or state minimum wage laws? *All student employees are paid minimum wage, again except me, I'm a little special.*
4) Do they have to have work permits?* We don't allow students under the age of 16 to work, they are considered "volunteers." students who do work are run through the business office and the district to become real part time employees.*
5) Any other pertinent info about such a situation. **We usually don't have much student crew working on outside performances, JROTC ushers work every show and I'm on a limited lease contract with the school. Just keep your schools business manager in the loop and whoever is in charge of payroll, they'll both be valuable assets.*


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## JonasA (Dec 1, 2011)

Not entirely relevant, but does anyone have any experience in this for *Australia*? I'm curious because I've only ever met one student tech who gets paid, and I'd love to have some information on students getting paid here, not just in the States, before I go to my school and ask them to hand over some cash for the ludicrous amount of free labour they're getting from me right now.


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## David Ashton (Dec 1, 2011)

It's pure market economics, sure a good kid who can rig and run a show will get paid, my son Sean used to get $20/hr, but he's good.He did his own school shows for free, everyone else paid.You decide what you want and ask for that, you risk losing, but that's life, just the same as in business, figure out what you're worth and charge that, if you're too cheap you get too much work, too dear, too little.Such is life.


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## longbordr13 (Dec 6, 2011)

1) When you do outside shows (i.e., not your choir, band, etc) that pay to rent your venue, does your student stage crew get paid? Yes we do.
2) If so, how much? $10+/hr
3) If you do pay, how do you relate it (if at all) to federal or state minimum wage laws?Above Min. wage
4) Do they have to have work permits? No, because it is a district approved event.
5) Any other pertinent info about such a situation. We require at least $10/hr but some events/teachers pay more..


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## Nelson (Dec 6, 2011)

longbordr13 said:


> 2) If so, how much? $10+/hr


 
I wish I was paid $10+/hr! Seriously. Us poorer districts just can't afford it.


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## josh88 (Dec 6, 2011)

for the outside shows my space puts on, I and any students techs they need, generally no more than two, get paid $25/hr. At least I think that's the rate. I only take the check I don't deal with who gets what. No work permits are needed and I think they may even get community services hours for it even though they are paid.


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## museav (Dec 7, 2011)

Just curious but do people differentiate between a 'student' and a 'worker' that should probably be approached as an employee? How do you assign people to events? And how do you address the value someone brings or provide an incentive to learn more and do better if you pay everyone the same? I guess that I just see the role of 'student' being very different than that of someone who may be a student but is functioning as an employee, including in terms of any compensation.


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## josh88 (Dec 7, 2011)

museav said:


> Just curious but do people differentiate between a 'student' and a 'worker' that should probably be approached as an employee? How do you assign people to events? And how do you address the value someone brings or provide an incentive to learn more and do better if you pay everyone the same? I guess that I just see the role of 'student' being very different than that of someone who may be a student but is functioning as an employee, including in terms of any compensation.



in my situation we have one student who is the go to for sound, he knows the system and how to mix. We've got one or two who can run lights. when we need help for the show we start at the top of our lists and ask if people are available, they get the job. 

last night I designed and ran the light board for our holiday concert, and had the usual sound tech. This weekend we have another show I'm designing lights but running sound for. The light board op is being paid and I'm training him on the board this week while I program.

so in short I guess most of the time the "students" are viewed as workers for the show but as students during the week up to performance as they are learning the system and should in theory be able to run it on their own by the weekend. For that matter, this is why they get community service, because during the rehearsals they are volunteering and showing up to learn on their own. Then they receive the per hour pay for the performances.


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## museav (Dec 8, 2011)

josh88 said:


> so in short I guess most of the time the "students" are viewed as workers for the show but as students during the week up to performance as they are learning the system and should in theory be able to run it on their own by the weekend. For that matter, this is why they get community service, because during the rehearsals they are volunteering and showing up to learn on their own. Then they receive the per hour pay for the performances.


When supporting outside events the people working may be students but they seem to be functioning in a technical/professional capacity as employees. However, for school events I am trying to understand where people see the division between student and employee and how it fits in with other aspects of their schools, especially in public schools. If you have a school production where the tech staff gets paid for the performance do the performers, the musicians, the makeup artists, the ushers, the box office staff and so forth also get paid for those performances? And do you pay your orchestra and choir for concerts or your athletes for games and competitions? It just seems that paying 'students' opens up a range of potential issues, while their being employees may make payment acceptable but has other considerations.

The reason this is of interest to me is that it goes to the issue of who may be the 'user' of and the intended goals for school audio systems. If one of the goals is generating jobs and income for paid 'professional' staff then that can be an important factor that may differ compared to a purely academic situation.


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## josh88 (Dec 8, 2011)

if its for the school (ie the musical, a concert...) the techs involved don't get paid. It's only outside rentals that come in and use our space where they get paid. So in that case when the school is directly involved they are always viewed as "just" students.


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## derekleffew (Dec 8, 2011)

josh88 said:


> for the outside shows my space puts on, I and any students techs they need, generally no more than two, get paid $25/hr. ...


EACH?! That sounds exorbitant. In most locales, one can get IATSE stagehands for $25/hour or less. Of course, it's not unheard of for a venue to *charge* $25/hour but pay the technicians far less.


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## josh88 (Dec 8, 2011)

yes each. Part of it is we are a private school, part of it is the pay for techs is sort of built into the rental fee for the space. It's pretty common for the three of us to get paid out around $400 total for a night.

the other part of the equation is how much people are willing to pay techs in the providence area I've found. I've talked to 2 or 3 different people that have said "if you work for me for a show I don't pay less than $40/hr". A lot of places I've worked with here really take care of techs/designers/teaching artists. At the same time from our main jobs myself and the girlfriend are still getting paid next to nothing, so its a strange combination.


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## emac (Dec 8, 2011)

josh88 said:


> yes each. Part of it is we are a private school, part of it is the pay for techs is sort of built into the rental fee for the space. It's pretty common for the three of us to get paid out around $400 total for a night.
> 
> the other part of the equation is how much people are willing to pay techs in the providence area I've found. I've talked to 2 or 3 different people that have said "if you work for me for a show I don't pay less than $40/hr". A lot of places I've worked with here really take care of techs/designers/teaching artists. At the same time from our main jobs myself and the girlfriend are still getting paid next to nothing, so its a strange combination.


 
So at 25 and hour WITH OUT taxes and getting 400 total for a night you were working 16 hours???? That seems to me as a violation of labor laws if you are a minor. 

It may be different for your state but in washington state theres a certain number of hours that you can work in a day and in a week. The daily maximum is much less then 16. Maybe 10 on the weekends. 

Odd. And again thats with out paying taxes.


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## LavaASU (Dec 8, 2011)

emac said:


> So at 25 and hour WITH OUT taxes and getting 400 total for a night you were working 16 hours???? That seems to me as a violation of labor laws if you are a minor.
> 
> It may be different for your state but in washington state theres a certain number of hours that you can work in a day and in a week. The daily maximum is much less then 16. Maybe 10 on the weekends.
> 
> Odd. And again thats with out paying taxes.



I think he means $400 divided amongst the 3 techs. Which means roughly $125 each for 5 hours work. Thats a lot for a high school student. But I doubt 5 hours is breaking laws in and of itself... I know I worked 8 or more while in high school on certain shows.


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## josh88 (Dec 8, 2011)

I meant $400 as a total payout for the techs for the night. I was there for about 8 hours they were there for 3 and change, so it was close to $200 for me and $100 for each of them. The students we use the most are both 18 so they aren't minors.


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## Scarrgo (Dec 8, 2011)

1.Yes we pay crew for all events district/rentals;Box office as needed for district events
2.Mininum wage for first year, Second and third year get a slight raise (less than a dollar)
3.Follow State Rules
4.Yes as they are students 15 to 18. and considered Part Time District Employees
5.We also have to follow labor rules for how many hours per day/week they can work as the state sees them having a full time job just being in high school.

We have 3 full time supervisors and 18 kids working crew/box, a couple of them only work certain jobs(lights,sound) but we try to let them work as many different jobs as possible. We serve 1 tech center, 2 high, 4 middle, and 8 elementary schools and 1 mega church plus as many outside rentals as time permits...

Sean...


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## MJS94 (Aug 10, 2012)

NHStech said:


> 1) When you do outside shows (i.e., not your choir, band, etc) that pay to rent your venue, does your student stage crew get paid?
> 2) If so, how much?
> 3) If you do pay, how do you relate it (if at all) to federal or state minimum wage laws?
> 4) Do they have to have work permits?
> ...



1) We usually have at least one district paid theatre employee there, mostly for insurance purposes. We do get paid.
2) about $20/hr
3) Taxes are still paid on it.
4) Most crew thats works has to be over 16 therefore not in need of work permit.
5) Many companies that have come in have also been very generous and have given tips to the school employees at the end of their event


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## FACTplayers (Aug 10, 2012)

Our high school is simple: student cannot and do not receive payment. They bring in band players for the orchestra, set construction, etc and they are not allowed to be paid until after graduation. Even with an outside group the school will not pay them. However, the outside group may pay the student, but that is between the student and the group.


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## Sayen (Aug 12, 2012)

Be careful with tips. If you are a public school, students are most likely considered state employees, who cannot take tips.

We've had to gently refuse tips from several renters over the years. It's a small thing, but it's the law.


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## Tex (Aug 12, 2012)

My students are paid as independent contractors. They are in no way, shape or form state employees. They're not even district employees.


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## Dovahkiin (Aug 12, 2012)

Generally, we get paid under the table because for them to pay us through the district, we have to be fingerprinted and processed as employees of the district which usually costs more than they're paying us, so they can either pay under the table or have no technicians. Most people are fine with it. I'm not sure if they just slip it by the book keeper or if we get paid out of their own pockets, but we get paid. Even when we are registered with the district, we don't need work permits. Apparently we used to get paid $20/hour, but people started to complain (rightly so, but it would still be nice to make that as a high school technician) so now we get minimum wage which is around $7/hour.


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## zmb (Aug 13, 2012)

Tex said:


> My students are paid as independent contractors. They are in no way, shape or form state employees. They're not even district employees.



How does that work tax-wise if they're making enough they need to file?


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## Tex (Aug 13, 2012)

They get form 1099 instead of W2. If they've made enough to file, they file. They don't make enough to owe anything so they get it all back.


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## MNicolai (Aug 13, 2012)

Tex said:


> They get form 1099 instead of W2. If they've made enough to file, they file. They don't make enough to owe anything so they get it all back.



I know a couple theatres in Wisconsin that went that route only to have the state mandate they start treating people as employees. You cannot call them independent contractors for several reasons. To name a couple big ones:

+ they are managed by someone else who tells them what to do, how to do it, and when to do it. Who controls the "how" and "when" are crucial for classifying someone as an employee or as an independent contractor. Whether or not they are actually managed by someone else does not matter -- the metric used by the IRS is who has the _rights_ to mandate the means and time-frame (i.e. the school district)
+ presumably they do not provide their own tools and equipment, and even if they do, someone else has the right to dictate to them which tools and equipment are used to perform the tasks, and in which order/pattern those tasks are completed in.


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## Tex (Aug 13, 2012)

Just to be clear, this is how my district has chosen to handle these student workers. I have no say in the matter, except who gets to work. If they're doing something that's not kosher with the IRS, the district legal team can deal with it. I'm sure they were consulted before this decision was made.


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## Sayen (Aug 14, 2012)

Dovahkiin said:


> Generally, we get paid under the table because for them to pay us through the district, we have to be fingerprinted and processed as employees of the district which usually costs more than they're paying us, so they can either pay under the table or have no technicians. Most people are fine with it. I'm not sure if they just slip it by the book keeper or if we get paid out of their own pockets, but we get paid. Even when we are registered with the district, we don't need work permits. Apparently we used to get paid $20/hour, but people started to complain (rightly so, but it would still be nice to make that as a high school technician) so now we get minimum wage which is around $7/hour.


Please be very careful doing this or talking about this - you/your district is most likely breaking the law. Besides the legalities of paying employees I would be worried about liability. What happens if someone is injured, or gear is broken/stolen? Sexual harassment from a client or student? The district has insurance and lawyers to help with this sort of thing. I know your situation is very common, and it was the case at my school when I was hired, but it's incredibly risky (and probably illegal). For what it's worth, my techs are paid $12 an hour now that it's official, which beats minimum.


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## museav (Aug 15, 2012)

Tex said:


> Just to be clear, this is how my district has chosen to handle these student workers. I have no say in the matter, except who gets to work. If they're doing something that's not kosher with the IRS, the district legal team can deal with it. I'm sure they were consulted before this decision was made.


I understand but there is virtually no way that students could meet the IRS definition of an independent contractor. And beyond the potential employment and tax issues, treating students as independent contractors seems fraught with other potential problems. If one of the 'independent contractors' drops a light onto the stage, destroying the fixture and damaging the stage, what happens? The school's insurance will probably not cover it because it was the direct result of an action by an independent contractor rather than a student or employee. And the individual probably has no coverage that would pay for it. Now extend that to a similar situation but someone being injured. That approach seems to put both the school and students at potential risk.


I am not an administrator or attorney so I am really looking at this as more of an outsider (and taxpayer) looking in, but on that basis I have to say that throughout this discussion I keep wondering about the fact that "student", "volunteer" and "employee/independent contractor" seem to define very different relationships. Perhaps it is oversimplifying it but one seems to function as either a student, a volunteer or a professional, but only as one at a time. There seems to be situations where the roles and relationships are not clearly defined or established and so what is most interesting to me is how schools determine whether the role is that of student, volunteer or professional and how that resulting relationship is then reflected and maintained. 

If you start paying "students" that seems to go somewhere no schools, or at least no public schools, would want to go. It has been many years since I was in high school but several of our choirs and bands performed on behalf of the school at outside events and I don't believe they were paid for that. Art students provided work for promotions and events without compensation. Athletes competed without compensation even if the school financially or otherwise profited from it. Those activities were considered either part of your education with the learning and experience gained being the associated compensation or they were a volunteer effort, neither of which involve financial compensation.

So any financial compensation seems to imply an "employee" or "contractor" relationship. And in that case wouldn't the same processes, practices and requirements applied to any other professional relationships also apply? As an example, bidders on public contracts typically have to be registered with the related agencies, be a licensed business, have a tax ID, have certain required insurance coverage, etc. and often any contracted publicly funded work has to go through specific processes to be awarded. If your school hires students as "independent contractors" then it would seem they would have to meet the same requirements and go through the same processes. An employee realtionship may avoid many such issues, but while it may be perfectly acceptable and appropriate to require certain qualifications for professionals you hire or contract that relate to their ability to perform the work, is their being in or having been in specific classes or certain clubs a legitimate and permissible employment qualification or could it be interpreted as discriminatory if it is not directly relevant to the work and position?


Another aspect to this seems to be that of whether during outside events the renters or attendees are perceived as interacting with students, volunteers or professionals. There are two sides to this. One is the legal aspects, for example in relation to any direct interaction. That may seem like a minor issue but could actually be a significant one. For example, if any adults on campus interacting with students must first be vetted then would that possibly appply? The other aspect is what expectations the outside party should have. I'll be blunt and say that if I were to come into a venue and be required to pay for technicians they provide, either directly or through the rental cost, then I would expect those individuals to be qualified and able to do their job. If they are there to learn that is great, but that goes back to their then seeming to be functioning as students rather than professonals.


Just to be clear, I am not suggesting that students should not be able to function in positions such as support and tech staff for the school venues and be paid when that is a professional relationship. I am interested in how schools define and maintain the seemingly different roles of student, volunteer and professional, especially when working with outside parties.


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## MNicolai (Aug 15, 2012)

Where I work (also where I went to high school), the overhire staff were considered district employees in that they could drive district vehicles if they were 18 or older and that taxes were deducted from their paychecks. They also had to take tuberculosis tests before their first paychecks could be released to each of them.

Students could be on the overhire staff as well as adults, but at different pay rates. (Hourly that was $10 for students and $20 for adults, but I think those numbers have since been revised since they realized that's a lot of money to be paying students who had just graduated and were bumped to the $20 pay level).

I'm considered a part-time employee by the district, as I was when I was a student there. There are fuzzy lines between how much of an employee I've always been though -- like when the school provides sexual harassment training or anything like that, nobody comes knocking on my door telling me I have to attend. I did have to attend aerial work platforms training to operate scissor lifts though -- a requirement from the district's insurance company.

As a part-time employee, it was understood I could represent the facility to third parties when I had explicitly been told to. Generally what would happen is as soon as an event would hit he advancing phase, I'd be in charge of looking at riders, preparing setups, and coordinating sound checks, light focusing, and such with the client and with my boss (who stayed as blind as possible to the technical elements).

We hire students for events when we can, adults when we must. Some students are trusted to represent the facilities to outside parties, others are grunt labor. Usually everyone has a good understanding of what they are or are not responsible for. If a client walks up to them and asks them about scheduling that week, they'll defer to the bossman, but if it's a question on how to get to the dressing rooms or someone wants to know when they can start their dance rehearsal on stage, they'll handle it on their own. At all times there is an adult present who can be the ultimate yea/nay on a matter, but how closely that person is supervising (if they're on stage at all times or if they stay mostly in their office in the lobby) depends on how capable the students are who are on staff that day.


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## ruinexplorer (Aug 19, 2012)

A lot of this also depends on the size of the community. Where I went to HS, the town and surrounding towns together only had a population of about 45,000. My HS stage was the largest theater in the area, there were no community stages. We had a single convention center which had city staff, but the town in general did not have theater employees outside of the high schools and college. When events did come to town, it was always a scramble to find people who could do the work since it was about a four hour drive, over mountain passes, to the nearest city with professionals. That community has over doubled in size over the past couple of decades since I left and I'm sure that it would not be the same today.

So, while some schools may have need to hire students to run special events, I do think that there is a better way than paying under the table or attempting to use the independent contractor route. As with safety, it comes with prior planning, often which the administration fails to put the effort into. If you are a student reading this thread, take it to heart that we are not trying to make you lose work/pay, but hoping that you will be protected. If you are an administrator/teacher, I hope that you take another look at how things are done and if it makes sense to continue this way. It's not just students who need to learn to question how/why things are done the way they are done. That's a life lesson.


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## Aman121 (Aug 29, 2012)

I am the only student who helps with the outside groups, its usually me and the district multimedia support guy, who is a good friend of mine. The drama club tech crew could care less about any events in the space, including the district events and concerts. 
Usually we will handle the technical elements, and the groups will provide their own crew, spot ops ect. Im not paid by the district in any way, but often the groups will pay me a decent amount under the table. I don't really treat working events as a paid gig, more just a chance to practice lighting and sound design and get my name out for real opportunities.
I receive nothing for school sponsored events and concerts, although I often have a rental budget to play with, which for me is even better than cash.


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