# Safety?



## DuckJordan (Jan 2, 2010)

I'm sure you've all heard the saying Safety first. but really should it be, if you are trying to accomplish something is in not ok to cut a corner once or twice when you need to such as how when your flying everyone should be wearing a helmet. or painting everyone should wear a respirator. I'm all for safety but when it starts becoming such a huge focus don't your shows all suffer?

This is just a rant about all the safety articles I've been seeing lately. to me it just seems a waste of time to have everyone in the catwalk wear a harness and be clipped to the rail as to "if they fall" sort of thing. what are you thoughts?


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## cprted (Jan 2, 2010)

Safety isn't a waste of time. If it can't be done safely, don't do it. Being injured sucks. Being dead sucks more.


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## GrayeKnight (Jan 2, 2010)

No, I don't think it's a waste of time. There are ways of doing things safely yet quickly.


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## Javert (Jan 2, 2010)

Wait, what's this about hardhats while flying? That's a new one on me. Personally, I'm all for safety - one of my rules of thumb as to whether something is a good idea is "If I mess up, how will the accident report look?"


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## sstolnack (Jan 2, 2010)

I think the OP is talking about some of the saftey rules, that while may make sense on paper, aren't very realistic. Hard hats? haven't heard of it, but I doubt many theatres do that. The harness and clip onto catwalks? supposedly we're supposed to do that at my theatre, but there are guardrails all the way across. You'd have to try pretty hard to fall. Also, I don't believe we ever actually got the harnesses we were supposed to wear, and one of the lines we were supposed to clip onto was about 6 inches directly below the pipe to hang lights on. So unless we wanted to top hang all our lights on the catwalk... the people before me took it down as soon as they saw the problem. Also things like not moving a genie lift when someone's up in it. Sorry, I'm not going to come down so it can be moved 5 feet over to get to the next light. 
I'm all for saftey, but these are things that go a little over the top in my opinion.


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## DuckJordan (Jan 2, 2010)

you hit it right on the nail i wasn't saying lets all put forks in the closest socket and see what happens I'm just saying safety should not always be first. it should always be thought about but it does not have to come before all other things. many productions i have done have required me to to some really un-safe things i have yet to get hurt because i think before i do them and take as much as i can for safety such as when hanging our side lights we are supposed to use a lift... but trying to get a lift or such device up the stairs or in an elevator then down stairs is nearly impossible. How often do you shut off a dimmer when checking a light? or do you unplug and plug in without first shutting off the channel? or another thing when you are working on the sound board do you shut off the whole system to plug in another device?


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## Les (Jan 2, 2010)

sstolnack said:


> Also things like not moving a genie lift when someone's up in it. Sorry, I'm not going to come down so it can be moved 5 feet over to get to the next light.
> I'm all for saftey, but these are things that go a little over the top in my opinion.



Here's where I get off the bus. NEVER use a personal lift without outriggers unless it was designed to be used that way. Alternately, do NOT move one fully extended unless the manufacturer specifically states that it is OK to do so. It takes all of 5 minutes to come down and unscrew the outrigger feet enough to move it, retighten it and go back up. This is not an ok corner to cut.


DuckJordan said:


> so instead of that we hang from our guard rail. i use the standard wrap a leg and lock it technique but i'm sure that is not a safety first scenario.



This is not an ok thing to do, and by making this statement, you are not making a very good case for yourself. If you MUST do this, at least wear an OSHA approved harness with a lifeline that is secured to an appropriate structural support in accordance with OSHA regulations. Your procedure is one of the most dangerous I have read here on CB. What if, one day, while doing your tried-and-true "leg lock", your pants rip or your shoe comes off? Also, what is the load rating on that rail? Can it handle a dynamic load such as your body hanging from it and moving about while hanging a lighting instrument? What if some young technician visits this thread and decides that "hey, I can do this technique on the rails at my high school" and as it turns out, his rails, unlike yours can't support the weight of his body and he then falls to his death? You have to think of other readers who are here to learn before posting something like this. Just because it has worked up until this point, doesn't mean it will work forever. Some people drive on worn out tires. Things are ok for them right now, but eventually they will have a blowout or slide off the road. 

EDIT: I just reread the post and you said "guard rail". So you mean to tell me that you hang from the guard rail on your personal lift? Doing this is even more unsafe and changes the lift's center of gravity. Think of it this way. Say a new guy who weighs 50 pounds more than you sees you do this and thinks he can do it too. But due to his increased weight, he changes the lift's center of gravity just enough to tip it over. Not only does he fall, but the lift may land on top of him. 


DuckJordan said:


> think of it this way, How often do you shut off a dimmer when checking a light? or do you unplug and plug in without first shutting off the channel?



Hot patching is not as much of a safety rule (other than creating the possibility of electrocution by touching the exposed pins as they are entering or leaving the female connector) as it is a rule for the purpose of increasing the life of your (or someone else's) equipment. Every time you connect or disconnect a fixture under load, you are causing a small spark between the connectors which will wear them down over time and eventually cause a failure. Depending on the type of failure it is, it could then become a safety issue (i.e. meltdown). It might not happen to you, but it could happen to the person after you. So when you do this, you are inadvertently disregarding the safety of future technicians handling that equipment.

Contrary to the headline of this category, I don't think these are "tips, tricks and rules that every technician should know".


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## dcollins (Jan 2, 2010)

Safety is always first. If it's dangerous, you don't do it.

However, it isn't dangerous to unplug an instrument without switching the dimmer off, that's crazy. Hot-plugging instruments is OK (Line voltage isn't enough to cause an arc between hot and neutral, though you may get hot-to-hot sparks, which can be shocking (not literally unless you're really dumb and touch something you shouldn't) if you aren't expecting it, but not dangerous) but should be avoided if easily possible. If there is a situation where someone can actually get shocked, or can fall, or where equipment can be damaged, or where something that's rigged can become unrigged, that's a safety issue. But there's a point where you get good practices but not actual safety issues.


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## erosing (Jan 2, 2010)

And here we have a few ways to get fired or killed. 

Outriggers are there for a reason. I saw an electrician get booted by the venues TD from a hang three weeks ago for ignoring outriggers. I would not be surprised if that person never works at that venue again. I would also like to note that when this electrician did have the outriggers in during the morning, they were improperly set up which got them their first warning, tilting 15 degrees to the left is not safe. 

Rules are there for a reason. Believe it or not they will save your butt eventually. 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## rochem (Jan 2, 2010)

I think the OP does bring up a good point, but some of his examples aren't the best. The point, as I read it anyways, being that our concept of safety is determined by the standards which we hold ourselves to. Not many years ago, people were doing things which we now find incredibly unsafe, but which they probably did every day without giving it a second thought. A perfect example is the woodstock video Derek posted a while back.


Thirty years from now, future technicians could look back and comment on how ignorant of common safety practices we must have all been because we actually stacked roadcases! Rather than waiting for a forklift to stack them, we actually used people to lift one case on top of another! Someone could have injured their back! In the future, of course, no one would _ever_ stack road cases themselves. They'd just wait for the forklift to come do it for them, and even though every load-out would take four extra hours, it'd be much safer and better.

An excessive example? Possibly. But the point is that you are never totally safe. No matter how many safety procedures we follow or actions we take, there's always the chance that we could be killed or seriously injured, especially in the theatre. Where does "reasonable safety measures" end and "efficiency" begin? Is there a number which defines this threshold, such as X number of deaths per million actions? Per billion? Sure, there's always the chance, however slim, that the entire grid could come crashing to the floor. Should we therefore not allow anyone to ever go into the stagehouse?

Note that I am not condoning the OPs actions, nor am I condemning them either. Rather, I am just pointing out that the OPs original idea does have content worthy of discussion.


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## erosing (Jan 2, 2010)

Yes the original idea does seem worth disscussing, however much of what has been discussed seems to violate the rules. 

If the examples being discussed were, mandatory gloves for working a fly system for example, I believe there would be a different tone or as you have suggested, the stacking of road cases. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## sstolnack (Jan 2, 2010)

In response to those concerned about my theatre's genie lift use;
We do use the outriggers, the genie doesn't even work without them, and we don't ever max the genie (our running height for the electrics is at about half of the genie's max), and when we move the genie, it is for less than 5 feet. But considering the huge reaction to this, I will start avoiding this.

Edit: on the topic of less dangerous saftey topics, do people use gloves when focusing lights?


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## ruinexplorer (Jan 3, 2010)

DuckJordan said:


> I'm sure you've all heard the saying Safety first. but really should it be, if you are trying to accomplish something is in not ok to cut a corner once or twice when you need to such as how when your flying everyone should be wearing a helmet. or painting everyone should wear a respirator. I'm all for safety but when it starts becoming such a huge focus don't your shows all suffer?
> 
> This is just a rant about all the safety articles I've been seeing lately. to me it just seems a waste of time to have everyone in the catwalk wear a harness and be clipped to the rail as to "if they fall" sort of thing. what are you thoughts?





As we spend more time working in this industry, our focus seems to lead towards the most safe practices. Our younger counterparts are often under the assumption that if they managed to do it without injury once, then it must be safe. Those of us who have been in the industry long enough will undoubtedly have known someone personally or worked in a venue where someone has been seriously injured or been killed. That starts to open your eyes to your own practices. Unfortunately, by human nature, those with fewer years in the industry are not as affected by tales of accidents and many of us get over confident in our practices as the years go by. We feel that they know how to do it without having an accident. Here's and example of someone who thought they knew what they were doing.

There are certain precautions we take that will be different from venue to venue. There are others that are law. You can bet that working for a larger corporation you will have more safety regulations than small firms or community theater. That's not to always say that these companies have more dangerous work conditions (though they sometimes do), but they have a greater need to protect their assets. Unfortunately, at low level theater (educational, community, or small budget professional), the technicians are more "expendable" and as such the technician is more of an asset if he/she will take more of a risk. This often goes with the mindset of "the show must go on." How many injuries/deaths do you think that mindset has resulted in? 

Yes, it is our duty to do everything in our power to make the show go on, but even large corporate shows (with 1/4 million dollar in ticket sales) will cancel a show if need be. Your life, that of a performer, and especially one of an audience member is not worth the risk. *Safety is always first!* Sometimes a safety measure may be misunderstood, but that doesn't mean that it should be ignored. My catwalks have safety lines to tie into, but I have been trained to know when I need to be in fall protection. I can't tell you when you do because I don't work in your theater. 

An employer (in the US) must provide a workplace free from serious recognized hazards and comply with standards, rules and regulations issued under the OSHA Act. They must establish operating procedures and communicate them so that employees follow safety and health requirements. The employee must comply with all regulations. Where it gets sticky is when you have volunteers who are not covered under these regulations. That is where our industry attempts to provide guidelines for safety. This is our goal here on CB. If you do something stupid, you can ruin the rest of your life. What you think is a pain to do may have been set forth to save your life. A hand railing is only designed to support 200 pounds, while a fall protection tie off point must support 5000 pounds. Do you think those are arbitrary numbers? If those regulations have come from scientific data and established to protect you, do you know with certainty when you can "cut corners"? I don't think so. And before anyone says, "it's my life", then you shouldn't be working around anyone, ever. What you do not only affects you, but it can potentially affect so many other people, maybe even your friends and family.


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## DuckJordan (Jan 3, 2010)

I Understand what you are saying, but quite often i find it more dangerous to follow safety guidelines that are in place, I am all for safety as my original post says i am just talking about the over the top safety, such as don't swim after you eat for 30 mins, quite often it is one random occurrence that had other factors that cause safety guidelines to become law. I am not saying that you should hang yourself outside of your catwalk railing without a harness on i am stating if you are walking and just picking up unused gel frames or such a wire and safety harness is really more of a hindrance.

I am all for safety and i know of such accidents. I have seen them happen. Most of the accidents were caused by uncontrollable things... But when guidelines state that helmets should be worn when flying something in, i feel its quite inefficient and more hazards than if they are just taught "Heads" means to look for incoming battens. Most safety precautions seem to make people feel invincible and that's why i think more and more accidents are happening is because of the safety gear.

I think most places don't worry about proper training anymore and just say hey you have safety gear on your ok.


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## photoatdv (Jan 3, 2010)

Well I do agree that the safety rules can sometimes be more for the CYA type stuff than real safety. One of the theatres I work at requires fall protection for some things and not others... problem is it seems like someone threw the work locations in a hat and randomly drew out the locations to require it. Also while you're unlikely to hit the ground, the ways they do it in many of the locations mean you would hit something else. In one place the shock absorbers plus lanyards would probably mean you'd hit the seats (I refuse to work in that one)... best part is without the shock absorber (and using the right size lanyard) you'd fall about 1' max (but of course we need to used a shock absorber). Also the rescue plan is... uh... dunno. One time I asked someone they said call 911...

However, on the other side, I've also dealt with the clear people out of the shop (which is around a corner and through a rolling door) if there's rigging going on onstage. We never could figure that one out. Also people in a leadership position who start screaming and panicking in an emergency are not helpful.

I have seen people hang from lifts... I don't like it at all. They have always been my superior, so there is nothing I can do, but you better believe I'd stop them if I could. That's absolutely stupid as far as I'm concerned.


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## cdub260 (Jan 3, 2010)

I get a little tired of posting this story but it seems I need to post it again as it is a good example of the potential consequences of failing to follow proper safety procedures.

September 1st. of 2000. I was 25 years old. I was striking lights from the Irvine Bowl, the amphitheatre that houses the Pageant of the Masters. I cut a few corners on safety. I had been in the industry eleven years at this point and never had any kind of serious accident. My first safety cut was that I was not wearing a climbing harness, so I had nothing to catch me if I fell. My second cut was that I was carrying my lights down the truss rather than lowering them with a rope. Third, I was in a hurry to finish. As a matter of fact the only safety procedure that I did follow that night was that I wasn't working alone. I had someone else with me acting as a bottom man while I did the climbing, which makes the failure to use a rope that much more idiotic. But even there, I had violated this rule on any number of occasions in my previous eleven years in the industry.

I was in the process of carrying my last light down the truss and I was anxious to finish the job and get to the crew party. I was nearly half way down the truss when I missed my grip. I'm not sure exactly how far I fell, but it was somewhere between ten and fifteen feet. The way the fall started I really should have hit the ground head first. I've never been sure exactly how I managed to straighten myself out so that I hit the concrete steps feet first instead.

In short, I got lucky. That fall should have killed me. As it stands, I injured both of my knees and pinched a nerve in my back. The pinched nerve went undiagnosed for four years; four years in which I was in near constant pain. There again, it was pure blind luck that lead to discovering the pinched nerve. Nearly four years after my fall, I somehow managed to un-pinch it. While the pain is no longer a constant in my life, it's still a frequent visitor. I'm in the gym 3 to 5 days a week dealing with pain issues and take anti-inflamatories far more often than I'd like. Nine years later I'm still doing the same job I did then, but now I have learned to use the proper PPE for this and other aspects of my job and to follow proper procedures.

I'm lucky that I walked away from that fall with a lifetime of knee problems when I really should have died. This wasn't the only time that luck has saved me from serious injury or death, but you can't depend on luck. Luck will only take you so far, then it'll get you killed. Learn from my mistakes; don't make them yourself. Learn and follow proper safety procedures. Learn to use the proper PPE for a given activity, then use it properly.

I'm 35 years old now and I know I don't bounce as well as I did at 25, yet if I were to have the same accident now, I would come out of it in a lot better shape. Why? Because I no longer trust that because I've never had an accident doing something a certain way, that I never will. I learn and follow that proper safety procedures. If someone points out something I'm doing that they think is unsafe, I listen to them. They just may be right. I will not take the risks that I took in my younger days. I'm twenty years into my career and hope to live through the next twenty years. 

There are a lot of people in my life who I care about and who care about me: my parents, my sisters, my brother, aunts, uncles, cousins, nieces, nephews, friends, co-workers, my girlfriend and her kids. I will not hurt them by doing something stupid that gets me killed if there's any way I can avoid it. You're not the only person at risk when you skimp on safety. You risk hurting not only yourself and the people you work with, but everyone in your life who cares about you at all. Think about that when you decide to cut corners on safety.


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## DuckJordan (Jan 3, 2010)

I think a lot of people are missing the point here, I am not saying when hanging lights never wear a harness. In your example were you on a truss or where you actually in a catwalk with railings and or walls? different scenarios mean different actions. I am not saying you should not wear a harness when hanging lights in a catwalk I am just stating being on a truss and being in a catwalk are two different forms of light placements. Your story is enlightening as it shows that safety should be kept at all times, was the bottom man wearing a hard hat? If i remember correctly i was taught if anything over head is being worked on you should ALWAYS wear a helmet. this is the kind of thing i am refering to not an obvious do not do, such as what i saw at a life light concert, but i won't go into that. 

the point of this thread is not to say safety shouldn't be thought of, just that it shouldn't always be first, if safety were first at all times, there would be no hanging lights, there would be no set pieces, there would be no actors on stage, or audience members in the audience at 100% of all venues. 

This thread just is a discussion of when safety is required at all times such as hanging lights at any height above 4'. not to mention how many times you've walked in a mall or a store and seen some water rot tiles on the ceiling whats to say an electrician didn't leave a wrench up there after installing conduit? what happens when that tile breaks and that wrench comes crashing down? this is just an example of where safety and keeping an eye out would be better.


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## kiwitechgirl (Jan 3, 2010)

DuckJordan said:


> the point of this thread is not to say safety shouldn't be thought of, just that it shouldn't always be first, if safety were first at all times, there would be no hanging lights, there would be no set pieces, there would be no actors on stage, or audience members in the audience at 100% of all venues.



Safety shouldn't always be first? I have to disagree. Safety should always come first. What I do think, though, is that sometimes "safety" is taken to a ridiculous degree. With sensible assessing of risk and the appropriate management of those risks, safety doesn't need to be prohibitive to day-to-day work, which it can sometimes do. For instance, in my venue, a lot of the time we have to rig lights off ladders (bars don't fly and often the sets prohibit getting the scaff tower in) but we always have one person up the ladder and one running ground support for them; lanterns are roped up and never carried up the ladder and if anyone is having a day where they don't feel up to climbing then they're put on another job. In my view, that's still making safety a priority but not letting it get in the way of the job. If you're sensible about it, safety can and should be the first priority.


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## dcollins (Jan 3, 2010)

kiwitechgirl said:


> Safety shouldn't always be first? I have to disagree. Safety should always come first. What I do think, though, is that sometimes "safety" is taken to a ridiculous degree. With sensible assessing of risk and the appropriate management of those risks, safety doesn't need to be prohibitive to day-to-day work, which it can sometimes do. For instance, in my venue, a lot of the time we have to rig lights off ladders (bars don't fly and often the sets prohibit getting the scaff tower in) but we always have one person up the ladder and one running ground support for them; lanterns are roped up and never carried up the ladder and if anyone is having a day where they don't feel up to climbing then they're put on another job. In my view, that's still making safety a priority but not letting it get in the way of the job. If you're sensible about it, safety can and should be the first priority.



This. All of this.


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## museav (Jan 3, 2010)

DuckJordan said:


> I'm sure you've all heard the saying Safety first. but really should it be, if you are trying to accomplish something is in not ok to cut a corner once or twice when you need to such as how when your flying everyone should be wearing a helmet. or painting everyone should wear a respirator. I'm all for safety but when it starts becoming such a huge focus don't your shows all suffer?




DuckJordan said:


> I'm just saying safety should not always be first. it should always be thought about but it does not have to come before all other things.


That's apparently what some people felt in this case as well, http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/facility/17208-106-years-ago-today.html. A bit extreme but the point is are you willing to find out after the fact that safety should have come first?


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## DuckJordan (Jan 3, 2010)

when safety comes first you cannot do your job safety is a priority yes but when safety always comes first you cannot do a job correctly or on time. that is what i am saying its not saying safety should be once in a while safety is always a requirement but when safety is your first and only priority it starts becoming like the auto industry and all the unions who are complaining about something that really should be taken care of by the individual technician, my example of wearing hard hats while anything is moving over head is a prime example of what should not happen unless there is extreme specific scenarios.


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## cprted (Jan 3, 2010)

DuckJordan said:


> when safety always comes first you cannot do a job correctly or on time.


I never want to work with you.


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## DuckJordan (Jan 3, 2010)

I still believe that several people are misunderstanding me, I will never climb to a falling height without wearing proper safety gear meaning if there are no guard rails or if i will be working outside of the guard rails i will wear a harness and safety cord at all times. When I am hanging lights i attach the safety cables at all times. I'm just stating that safety is a priority probably 2nd on the list right after getting a job completed on time, when i go to shows in an education setting and they have had to rush something in the end because opening night is one night away it looks terrible, but if you look at some of the shows over in india or even in the uk when they have a crew dedicated to the show not themselves it comes out a hell of a lot better. When safety becomes number 1 on the list everything suffers. I am not saying standard safety should not be used. going up in a lift and hanging lights, and not going back down to move it is one of those things that its standard safety and should be done every time. but having everyone wear a hard hat while something is being flown, or shutting off an entire sound system to hook up a microphone is also way out of the way when it comes to "safety".


What i am trying to say is no safety is bad, but too much safety is even worse. so where is the middle ground? thats what i am asking and attempting to state.


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## chris325 (Jan 3, 2010)

The most commonly ignored safety measure that I've heard of is a lack of safety cables. Seriously, it's around a buck per cable and adds about 5 to 10 seconds to the process of hanging/striking a fixture, and it could save a $400 leko and possibly a life in the event of a clamp failure, etc.

Also, when working on a catwalk with guardrails on both sides, it seems overkill to wear a fall arrest device. The chances of a fall are virtually non-existent when common sense is used in hanging, etc.

Safety must come before anything else in theatre, assuming that reasonable measures are taken and risks assessed.


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## Javert (Jan 3, 2010)

chris325 said:


> The most commonly ignored safety measure that I've heard of is a lack of safety cables. Seriously, it's around a buck per cable and adds about 5 to 10 seconds to the process of hanging/striking a fixture, and it could save a $400 leko and possibly a life in the event of a clamp failure, etc.



That one is absolutely critical... recently I took down a fresnel (from a flown electric!) that had no safety cable, a badly cracked lens, and was missing the bolt in its clamp. Somehow I don't think a power cable is quite rated for the shock load of a falling instrument.


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## dcollins (Jan 3, 2010)

DuckJordan said:


> I'm just stating that safety is a priority probably 2nd on the list right after getting a job completed on time, when i go to shows in an education setting and they have had to rush something in the end because opening night is one night away it looks terrible



This is what you're getting wrong. (reasonable) Safety is never second. Especially when a show is already behind schedule and you're trying to catch up. Look at the second news post on the front page if you disagree.

Link for posterity

I'd rather it be late and rough around the edges than have a safety incident.

Unnecessary measures taken in the name of safety are skipped because they are unnecessary, not because the show is late. All other safety measures are never skipped.


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## tjrobb (Jan 3, 2010)

A couple of "points to ponder."
First, after working without cut-resistant gloves for ~3 weeks (much longer for people who were there before me), the company I was working for (not a theatre) decided we all needed to wear cut-resistant gloves effectively all the time. Problem was, the new, resistant, gloves were actually LESS resistant to being cut than the old ones that the company also provided. So, do we wear the new gloves and risk a cut or do we wear the old gloves and risk getting laid off / fired? (I was working as an electrician and we had to use a knife a lot to strip large-gauge cables).
Second, OSHA wants cut-resistant gloves when working around tools that may cut the user. Does this include scissors? If so, does this mean that each time I use my leatherman to trim a string off a costume I need to find cut-resistant gloves? Seems a bit of overkill to me.
I am not saying safety should be ignored, but I wonder if sometimes we go too far.


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## cdub260 (Jan 3, 2010)

DuckJordan said:


> I think a lot of people are missing the point here, I am not saying when hanging lights never wear a harness. In your example were you on a truss or where you actually in a catwalk with railings and or walls? different scenarios mean different actions. I am not saying you should not wear a harness when hanging lights in a catwalk I am just stating being on a truss and being in a catwalk are two different forms of light placements. Your story is enlightening as it shows that safety should be kept at all times, was the bottom man wearing a hard hat? If i remember correctly i was taught if anything over head is being worked on you should ALWAYS wear a helmet. this is the kind of thing i am refering to not an obvious do not do, such as what i saw at a life light concert, but i won't go into that.
> 
> the point of this thread is not to say safety shouldn't be thought of, just that it shouldn't always be first, if safety were first at all times, there would be no hanging lights, there would be no set pieces, there would be no actors on stage, or audience members in the audience at 100% of all venues.
> 
> This thread just is a discussion of when safety is required at all times such as hanging lights at any height above 4'. not to mention how many times you've walked in a mall or a store and seen some water rot tiles on the ceiling whats to say an electrician didn't leave a wrench up there after installing conduit? what happens when that tile breaks and that wrench comes crashing down? this is just an example of where safety and keeping an eye out would be better.



No DuckJorden, we're not missing your point. We're telling you that you're wrong! Based on your stubborn refusal to see the point that so many of us have made in this thread, it seems obvious that just like me, you're going to have to learn your lesson about the importance of safety the hard way.

Safety First! Safety Last! Safety Always!

What do I mean by this?

Safety First: Before you even start a job you should consider how to do the job safely. For instance when hanging lights, before I even begin I make sure all my lights have safety cables.

Safety Last: When you're finished with a job, you should still be thinking about safety. Double check your work and ask yourself if there is anything you forgot. For instance, when I'm done hanging lights, I double check all my fixtures to make sure they all have safety cables just in case I missed one.

Safety Always: While you're doing the work, you should be thinking about how to do the job safely. Going back to the hanging lights example, while hanging lights I make sure that each light I hang has a safety cable in use. I may have missed one or two in my pre-hang check.

For much of what we do in this industry, there is no way to make things 100% safe. There will always be an inherent danger in working at heights. But we can take steps to reduce that danger to acceptable levels. When I work on live electrical panels I am required to wear certain protective gear: EH rated foot wear, all cotton clothing, a Nomex jump suit, rubber gloves that meet arc flash hazard category one or two standards (depending on the panel), cotton glove liners, leather glove protectors over the rubber gloves, safety glasses, ear plugs, and a hard hat with an electrically rated visor. I'm also required to remove my watch and any jewelry, though the second really isn't an issue as I don't wear jewelry anyway. Wearing all this safety equipment is awkward and makes working on a panel a lot harder, usually tripling the amount of time it takes to get the job done due to a loss of dexterity in my hands. Even at that, it can take longer to put on all this safety equipment than it does to actually do the work on the panel. But using this equipment properly gives me a much greater chance of coming out of an arc flash incident alive and in one piece by buying me half a second or so to get out of the path of the arc flash.

My fall didn't just teach me to be safe in my climbing, but to learn, understand, and follow the safety rules in all my duties. I can only hope that when you have your eye opening experience, you come out of it better than I did after mine. After nearly a decade of living with chronic pain issues, I can assure you it's not fun. And yet I still consider myself extremely lucky. Given the nature of my accident, I should not be walking, talking and breathing today.




kiwitechgirl said:


> Safety shouldn't always be first? I have to disagree. Safety should always come first. What I do think, though, is that sometimes "safety" is taken to a ridiculous degree. With sensible assessing of risk and the appropriate management of those risks, safety doesn't need to be prohibitive to day-to-day work, which it can sometimes do. For instance, in my venue, a lot of the time we have to rig lights off ladders (bars don't fly and often the sets prohibit getting the scaff tower in) but we always have one person up the ladder and one running ground support for them; lanterns are roped up and never carried up the ladder and if anyone is having a day where they don't feel up to climbing then they're put on another job. In my view, that's still making safety a priority but not letting it get in the way of the job. If you're sensible about it, safety can and should be the first priority.



Kiwitechgirl, you bring up a very good point here, which would make for a far more productive discussion than whether or not safety should always be the number one priority. That is the question of whether or not certain safety rules take things too far and in fact create an unsafe work environment. I have on occasion, refused to obey certain safety rules because I felt that following that particular rule would place my life at unnecessary risk. That said, my employer would have been well within their rights to fire me for my refusal to follow safety rules. Some rules are specific to a certain venue. Some insist that their techs wear hardhats. Others do not. The rules are there for a reason, even if that reason is as simple as because the venue says so.


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## cprted (Jan 3, 2010)

cdub260 said:


> Safety First! Safety Last! Safety Always!







cdub260 said:


> Kiwitechgirl, you bring up a very good point here, which would make for a far more productive discussion than whether or not safety should always be the number one priority. That is the question of whether or not certain safety rules take things too far and in fact create an unsafe work environment. I have on occasion, refused to obey certain safety rules because I felt that following that particular rule would place my life at unnecessary risk.


Indeed. In my previous line of work, I was legally exempted from wearing a seatbelt. However, policy dictated that we wear a seatbelt whenever we were in a moving vehicle. While some grumbled (mostly just the idiots and the knobs), I wore my belt at least 98% of the time or better. Seat belts save lives!

One day, we got a new piece of gear, a 2-seater ATV thing-a-ma-bob. Perfect for getting into places it is hard to drive a conventional vehicle. The problem arose from the fact that the ATV thingy had seatbelts, but no roll bar. Thus creating the possibility that should the **** thing tip, anyone belted in wouldn't be able to jump clear and thus face being crushed.

So, in this situation, are you actually safer wearing a seatbelt? Probably not.

Management, in a rare instant of lucidity, gave the ATV a exemption from the seatbelt policy until a proper rollbar was installed.


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## jwl868 (Jan 3, 2010)

The attitude of the original post is one of hubris. One must work safely so that one can continue to work. You want to go home at the end of the day. Your family and friends want you hame at the end of the day, too. 

The statement that “when safety comes first you cannot do your job” is fiction. One only has to see the signs at factories stating (proudly) the number of days without accidents or lost time injuries. These places are doing their jobs right.

Plenty of other industries get the job done safely and right, thank you. 

Never forget the price of ignoring safety:

Weekly Reports of Fatalities, Catastrophes, and Other Events


Joe


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## kiwitechgirl (Jan 3, 2010)

DuckJordan said:


> I'm just stating that safety is a priority probably 2nd on the list right after getting a job completed on time, when i go to shows in an education setting and they have had to rush something in the end because opening night is one night away it looks terrible, but if you look at some of the shows over in india or even in the uk when they have a crew dedicated to the show not themselves it comes out a hell of a lot better. When safety becomes number 1 on the list everything suffers.



Everything might suffer except the technician whose life has been saved by the safety rules. Which, to me, is far more important. And I'm not sure what you're basing your statements about the UK on - I worked over there for two years and they take safety to the nth degree. While generally I do care if the show looks terrible, if the look of it has been sacrificed so that no-one got hurt, then that's absolutely fine. Sometimes I think that we in theatre (rock 'n roll is a bit different) forget that what we're actually doing is just adult dress-ups and really, no-one deserves to get hurt or die because of that. 

I do also agree with cdub and cprted's point that sometimes safety can be taken too far and "safety" rules can create danger rather than removing it, and in that kind of case, then I'd agree that the technician should use their discretion. H&S "jobsworths" who don't understand how theatre works and place all sorts of rules and restrictions on how we work do more harm than they do good. But, I maintain my earlier point: with sensible risk assessment and appropriate managing of those risks, safety can and should be top priority without influencing the work to be done.


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## mstaylor (Jan 3, 2010)

Safety is an interesting topic in our business. I go back to the mid seventies when safety wasn't a big consideration but as the years pass it has been become much more prelavent. You don't want to know what violations I have committed over the years but as I was taught years ago, experience is a word use for our mistakes. I agree that in any job you have to consider safety first. The problem is too many people don't understand the codes and why certain standards are ther so put policies in place that make no sense. 
There is absolutely no reason to wear PPE when on a properly handrailed catwalk. If you leave the confines for any reason you need to put you belt on. One of the aspects of the safety code that gets forgotten is training. Anyone that makes policy or works in a job that is dangerous should be trained. You can't stick a belt on a guy and send him on a truss. You can't expect a guy to be able to run a fork or lift without proper training. As one poster said, the areas requiring PPE seemed arbitary, this because whoever made the rules lacked the training to make the rules. I agree that I would prefer to fall a foot instead of a full ripout lanyard but there is a reason why it is required. 
A professional should know how long a job should take and how much safety requirements will add to it and will allow for it when figuring a task. Any task that requires fall protection requires an extraction plan. I just installed 20 temp planks and horizontal protection for them all. Before I could use them, I had to have a written plan to rescue an injured rigger and my riggers had to be trained to use the system and know the rescue plan. An unconcious person can actually die hanging in a belt if left too long. If you can move your limbs then you should be OK but once you can't you need to be rescued quickly. Quicker than most first responders can make.


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## MNicolai (Jan 4, 2010)

mstaylor said:


> Safety is an interesting topic in our business. I go back to the mid seventies when safety wasn't a big consideration but as the years pass it has been become much more prelavent. You don't want to know what violations I have committed over the years but as I was taught years ago, experience is a word use for our mistakes. I agree that in any job you have to consider safety first. The problem is too many people don't understand the codes and why certain standards are ther so put policies in place that make no sense.
> There is absolutely no reason to wear PPE when on a properly handrailed catwalk. If you leave the confines for any reason you need to put you belt on. One of the aspects of the safety code that gets forgotten is training. Anyone that makes policy or works in a job that is dangerous should be trained. You can't stick a belt on a guy and send him on a truss. You can't expect a guy to be able to run a fork or lift without proper training. As one poster said, the areas requiring PPE seemed arbitary, this because whoever made the rules lacked the training to make the rules. I agree that I would prefer to fall a foot instead of a full ripout lanyard but there is a reason why it is required.
> A professional should know how long a job should take and how much safety requirements will add to it and will allow for it when figuring a task. Any task that requires fall protection requires an extraction plan. I just installed 20 temp planks and horizontal protection for them all. Before I could use them, I had to have a written plan to rescue an injured rigger and my riggers had to be trained to use the system and know the rescue plan. An unconcious person can actually die hanging in a belt if left too long. If you can move your limbs then you should be OK but once you can't you need to be rescued quickly. Quicker than most first responders can make.



A few years ago a guy was focusing lights from a one-man Genie. In a futile attempt to have an added safety measure, he wore a harness while in the lift, which he secured to the electrics he was focusing from. My guess is that his harness gave him a false sense of security and so he acted more dangerously while in the lift.

This is a fallacy that people suffer from regularly. The roads are pretty icy this time of year and we see a lot of people driving four-wheel drive trucks like they can handle any terrain. What they fail to realize is that FWD makes them less likely to spin out only until they use it as an excuse to drive more recklessly. As push comes to shove, they then find out the hard way that FWD doesn't provide any help when you're trying to stop on ice. As a result, I see just as many people with FWD in getting into accidents this time of year as I see drivers of sedans driving off the road.

So with his false sense of security, this stagehand is leaning out of the bucket ([sarcasm]remember he's safer because of his harness[/sarcasm]) when the lift tips over. When the lift went over, his legs were caught in the bucket and both were snapped like toothpicks. As the lift came crashing down, he was suspended with his harness still, some 30' in the air gushing blood with what's left of his legs dangling, bones completely visible. A bad situation gone horribly worse, nobody had the key to operate the motorized winches supporting the electrics so it took some 5 minutes to get the key, meanwhile he's still bleeding out.

"But he survived, so that makes what he did correct, right?" Not in the slightest. Wearing a harness was more dangerous than not. With his legs tangled in the bucket, that also puts a heavy dynamic load on the electrics -- probably much more than is ever remotely safe. Let's not forget, his body then becomes the weakest link in the chain between the force of the lift falling over and the electric trying to keep him suspended. Those lifts weigh roughly 1000lbs to begin with, plus it was gaining momentum as it tipped. The purpose of using the harness was inappropriate, the object he secured to was inappropriate, and he probably was acting more reckless as he was putting faith into the harness being his failsafe plan.

Safety is always a priority. Being "overly-safe" doesn't make something dangerous, it's an inappropriate estimation of how safe something might be that masks how dangerous something actually is.

This scenario is why, in a scissor lift, OSHA doesn't require you to have a harness on when working on the platform. The moment you step onto the rims around the platform and lean over the edge you need to have a harness on, to which (at least in Genie lifts) harness attachment points are provided. Securing to the lift is considered appropriate in that case because generally in a scissor lift if you reach a point where the lift is going to topple over, you're already unequivocally screwed. If you follow the manufacturer's specs, the lift won't fall over. If you are in a situation where the lift falls over and you go with it, that is purely your own fault.

There's no such thing as being "too safe." There's safe and then there's dangerous.


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## mstaylor (Jan 4, 2010)

You ae not supposed to wear a harness working in a single man lift or scissor lift. As so aptly proven by the previous story, you should never safety yourself outside the lift to a fixed point. 
There is a certification called a competently trained person which I hold. This person determines what safety measures need to be used in a given situation. The OSHA code reconizes there are times when you simply can't follow the guidelines. This is when the CTP steps in and decides what to do and how to do it. 
I don't care what classes you taken or what certs you have or your experience level, there is always more to learn.


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## GreyWyvern (Jan 5, 2010)

DuckJordan said:


> I'm just stating that safety is a priority probably 2nd on the list right after getting a job completed on time, ...
> ...When safety becomes number 1 on the list everything suffers.



You need to be stating that safety is the priority. Period. End of sentence, thought, and story. Safety FIRST, safety LAST, safety ALWAYS.

"Getting a job completed on time" is just like the false thinking trap we get into that "the show must go on". It is absolutely not true if there is even a hint of a safety concern. What happens if you have to hold doors for 5 minutes because you took an extra couple minutes to be sure something was done right and safely? Nothing, except you open doors a little late. (Warning, this may be shocking!) The world is not going to come to an end!

However, you likely won't open the doors at all if someone gets killed or seriously injured.

And like cdub said, No we're not missing your point. We're telling you that you're wrong!


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## DuckJordan (Jan 5, 2010)

I Guess i didn't state myself clearly, I meant Unreasonable Safety such as a harness on a properly installed catwalk with guard rails and no chance of leaning out or over the side of such catwalk... I am sorry for the miss understanding... I guess i failed to mention that it was Unreasonable safety procedures that i was referring to.

still the point exists from earlier when does safety become unreasonable?

also my experience comes from high school level theater, 12 shows in which the only accidents that have ever happened were a few minor cuts fixed with a band aid. I noticed in my earlier posts i was stating that safety isn't a priority, it is but so is doing a good job, so when you say rushing we never rush since we have about a month and a half for a show to come together. i'm sure other jobs in the industry will change my opinion drastically but from what i have seen in the high school level unless your doing something really stupid your not going to get hurt... especially since the highest point you can fall off of is a weight floor which has properly secured gaurd rails and for no reason what-so-ever should you have to climb on them, is about 50' off the ground which could kill you but again unless your doing something extremely stupid in our theater your not going to get hurt as all our electrics fly down to be focused, and the cat walk has a full walkway hallway with a cut out on the house wall to hang the lights. 

I guess it narrows down to me with this, in my experience at one building, which i have read to be really really limited, (i know i state this a lot) unless we do something really stupid we aren't going to get hurt.


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## ruinexplorer (Jan 6, 2010)

DuckJordan said:


> I Guess i didn't state myself clearly, I meant Unreasonable Safety such as a harness on a properly installed catwalk with guard rails and no chance of leaning out or over the side of such catwalk... I am sorry for the miss understanding... I guess i failed to mention that it was Unreasonable safety procedures that i was referring to.
> 
> still the point exists from earlier when does safety become unreasonable?
> 
> ...



I think that you did make yourself (over the various posts) quite clear in your opinion. The problem is, are you qualified to make the determination of what is an "unreasonable safety" rule? Based on the description of your experience, I would say no. 

Are there sometimes regulations put in place that may or may not make the situation difficult or potentially adding a hazard? Yes. As has been said, sometimes the policy makers are not experts and potentially make incorrect judgement to try to protect their assets (you and other technicians as well as the benefactors of the facility). The problem exists in the training. You may not fully understand the risks involved and so deem a situation not needing the safety measures and risk injury. Just because a catwalk has handrails may not mean that you are safe. You say that as long as you aren't being really stupid then you are safe. That's wrong, because you may not be able to determine all the risks, which I'm not going to list all the possibilities. 

Yes, many accidents happen because people are being stupid. On the other hand, many accidents happen to people just because they were in a hurry and didn't fully assess the situation. If you find that a situation may seem dangerous by following standard safety procedures at your facility, speak with your instructor and find out if that situation can be evaluated. There's always the possibility that some regulation is no longer necessary due to other measures being taken, but the regulation was never ammended. That happens. In the discussions in previous threads, there have been a variety of points brought up that may seem contradictory or to strict, but that doesn't mean that they are not valid. This is why a qualified risk manager is needed for every facility and proper training is needed for every technician who works in that facility. In road house venues, it is usually written into the contract to have facility staff on hand during the entire process. This is because there is no way to have all of the incoming staff trained on the risks of the facility prior to load-in, so the in house staff provides supervision.

Don't think that we're just a bunch of old fogies who are too afraid to do our jobs that we have to make up rules for everyone to follow. If you have a question, ask, but ask the person who can make the judgement call. Never assume.


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## Chris Chapman (Jan 6, 2010)

DuckJordan said:


> I guess it narrows down to me with this, in my experience at one building, which i have read to be really really limited, (i know i state this a lot) unless we do something really stupid we aren't going to get hurt.



Being a High School Tech it is vital that you learn the right safety procedures before you go out into the Great Big World. The procedures may seem "silly" to you at your venue, but there are a gazillion and one reasons why they aren't silly or a waste of time.

When my venue is pushing to get a show up, one of my biggest weaknesses is that I start to want to cut corners to make my days and hit my schedules. I constantly have to remind myself of why I CAN'T do that (Safety First and Setting the Right Example Second).

As others have already mentioned no gig is worth getting hurt (or worse) over. 

You mentioned that if you follow safety rules you can't get your job done. That means either you haven't been trained properly, or you don't have the right supervision. Or you schedules are un-realistic.

Remember, yeah, they may seem silly and time wasters to you, BUT THEY ARE NOT. The Safety Rules & Guidelines are put in place so you don't hurt yourself, or others. When (and if) you do more Real World gigs, you'll find that out pretty fast.


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## Diarmuid (Jan 6, 2010)

DuckJordan said:


> ... I will never climb to a falling height without wearing proper safety gear meaning if there are no guard rails or if i will be working outside of the guard rails i will wear a harness and safety cord at all times...


 
When you say a "falling height" do you only mean a lack of guard rails? Or are you also implying a certain height above the deck? Whilst I can only speak for the situation in the UK, anything above the floor is considered working at height, literally anything, so if I'm standing on that toolbox or box of paper to reach something, I'm working at height (and for what its worth I do know several people who have fallen off a toolbox and had back injuries lasting them several years). The last time I had Working At Height training, we were told that the majority of falls from above 6 feet are fatal. Period. (That also isn't to say that falls from under 6 feet aren't fatal). From the way your post was worded, I would question whether or not you are qualified to decide what that height limit is.


DuckJordan said:


> ... safety is a priority probably 2nd on the list right after getting a job completed on time, when i go to shows in an education setting and they have had to rush something in the end because opening night is one night away it looks terrible, but if you look at some of the shows over in india or even in the uk when they have a crew dedicated to the show not themselves it comes out a hell of a lot better. When safety becomes number 1 on the list everything suffers.


 
I can't speak for India, but being a professional working in the UK, I strongly resent the suggestion that we are not as safe as you (and also to our safety record being compared to that of a third world country). If you don't have time to do the job safely, then you are not doing the job right. Indeed I am aware of several UK venues, where everyone does have to wear a hard hat every time something is flown and the solution isn't as simple as "teach everyone the meaning of 'heads'", if you're standing under something and it falls, how much time do you have to react to someone shouting the other side of the room?

Doing a job safely does not mean doing it slowly, and I would also pose the question to you of whether it is faster to get your crew to spend five minutes putting on harnesses in the morning (regardless of whether you are already doing this, it's an example) or calling 999/911, getting paramedics to come and take your friend who is now bleeding out of his ears with severe cerebral compression to hospital, cleaning up the area, filling out accident reports, reporting it to the government under RIDDOR (again, UK legislation, but just as an example), oh yeah and then trying to carry on working knowing that you might have just watched your best friend die; you can always be comforted knowing that he might live, though probably with a spinal injury meaning he can never walk, move or go to the toilet again.

We all have days where we're pushed to the limit and have half the amount of time we need to get things done, but if you use that as an excuse for cutting corners when it comes to safety, then I don't want you in my theatre (and will NEVER employ you to work for my current company); furthermore I don't want you in any theatre, if you think that cutting safety out is acceptable I don't want you in the position where you can make others think it is acceptable, or even just bring those who work in theatre's into disrepute when you lead to the serious injury of yourself or those around you.

I can only think that what you were trying to say was: 

"[-]no[/-] *too much *safety is bad, but [-]too much [/-] *no *safety is [-]even[/-] *much much much much much much *worse. so where is the middle ground? thats what i am asking and attempting to state"
And if that is what you were trying to say, then I think lots of people would agree with you, but as it is, I think I have to agree with :


cprted said:


> I never want to work with you.


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## DuckJordan (Jan 6, 2010)

as i see all of your posts you are saying the same thing that i want to cut out all safety from my theater that is not the case i don't have any disputes with the safety codes of our school its a discussion thread not an actual example everything i have stated about my school or as examples are hypothetical we do not wear hard hats in our venue nor have we ever been required to. hell gloves are optional on our fly rail which i believe is a stupid idea. also in a high school setting the only people with access to heights or any kind of electrical equipment next to outlets at ground level are people who have keys and training. this is a public school so safety is a huge deal. I am tired of people ASSUMING i mean to take safety out of the picture, but when i see several threads about how (not on this forum) you should always wear Rubber soles when plugging in any standard electric outlet it tells me that my generation obviously shouldn't be working with anything remotely hazardous in anyway because they can't or don't have the common sense to not stick a fork in a socket.


I am in no way saying is not a huge priority and i guess people aren't understanding how i am stating it or they don't think about it they read it and just immediatly come to the conclusion if safety isn't first it isn't there. I never rush into a job without thinking first what could happen. Also to clarify working at heights I meant anything over 4 inches.


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## sem6727 (Jan 6, 2010)

OK. OK. So I’ve seen this done many a time and I have always questioned this practice. Moving a genie lift (outrigger model) fully extended, but the out riggers are loosened just enough that the little green light clicks off, not that the out riggers are removed. Is this practice unsafe or possibly equivalent to moving a genie without the outriggers? 

This is an honest question from a student. Please don’t berate me with hate posts. 

Thanks.


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## Les (Jan 6, 2010)

sem6727 said:


> OK. OK. So I’ve seen this done many a time and I have always questioned this practice. Moving a genie lift (outrigger model) fully extended, but the out riggers are loosened just enough that the little green light clicks off, not that the out riggers are removed. Is this practice unsafe or possibly equivalent to moving a genie without the outriggers?
> 
> This is an honest question from a student. Please don’t berate me with hate posts.
> 
> Thanks.



Single mast Genie lifts are designed to be static (not moving) when extended. Moving an extended lift (even with the outriggers still in their slots) is still unsafe and will get you fired from most venues. 

The outriggers are there to prevent rocking and tipping. When they don't have firm contact with the floor, they fail to do their job. Then, when you start parading it around the stage when it's extended, you introduce rocking, which is what the outriggers are designed to prevent. Since the outriggers aren't touching the floor, you will get more rocking. Now, the foot of an outrigger is a disc which is only about 4-5" diameter in most cases. I wouldn't be surprised that if in the right situation, that foot (or the threaded leg) could bend or go right through the stage deck given enough kinetic energy. This would be bad.

To sum it all up -- they aren't designed for it, it says not to do it on the machine, so don't do it. I know that properly relocating a Genie lift is a painful process, but recovering from a fall at height is much more painful (in the unlikely event that the person does recover).


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## cdub260 (Jan 6, 2010)

DuckJordan said:


> I am in no way saying is not a huge priority and i guess people aren't understanding how i am stating it or they don't think about it they read it and just immediatly come to the conclusion if safety isn't first it isn't there. I never rush into a job without thinking first what could happen. Also to clarify working at heights I meant anything over 4 inches.



The reason we come to the conclusion that if safety isn't first, it isn't there is because...

If safety isn't first, it isn't there!

The moment ANY other aspect of a given task becomes more important than performing that task safely, that task is NO LONGER SAFE! Safety CANNOT be the number two priority because by its very nature, if safety is not the NUMBER ONE priority, it ceases to be a priority at all. That is the lesson we all keep trying to teach you here.

You seem to think that if only you can explain yourself better, you'll get us to understand your point. We understand your point just fine. What you fail to understand is that each and every one of us who has been in this industry for any significant length of time has been exactly where you are now. We all had our notions of what was safe and what wasn't. Most of us were WRONG! Most learned how wrong they were through education, training and experience. A few, like me, had to learn how wrong we were by having or seeing an accident that could have been avoided had proper safety procedures been learned, understood, and followed.

Does that mean a discussion of whether certain safety rules are unnecessary, or even downright dangerous is a bad thing? No, it doesn't! Just don't delude yourself into thinking that you will ever convince the industry veterans on this site that safety should ever hold any position other than number one. Number one is the only place safety can be if it is to exist at all.


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## MNicolai (Jan 6, 2010)

DuckJordan said:


> as i see all of your posts you are saying the same thing that i want to cut out all safety from my theater that is not the case i don't have any disputes with the safety codes of our school its a discussion thread not an actual example everything i have stated about my school or as examples are hypothetical we do not wear hard hats in our venue nor have we ever been required to. hell gloves are optional on our fly rail which i believe is a stupid idea. also in a high school setting the only people with access to heights or any kind of electrical equipment next to outlets at ground level are people who have keys and training. this is a public school so safety is a huge deal. I am tired of people ASSUMING i mean to take safety out of the picture, but when i see several threads about how (not on this forum) you should always wear Rubber soles when plugging in any standard electric outlet it tells me that my generation obviously shouldn't be working with anything remotely hazardous in anyway because they can't or don't have the common sense to not stick a fork in a socket.
> 
> 
> I am in no way saying is not a huge priority and i guess people aren't understanding how i am stating it or they don't think about it they read it and just immediatly come to the conclusion if safety isn't first it isn't there. I never rush into a job without thinking first what could happen. Also to clarify working at heights I meant anything over 4 inches.



It's not that people expect high schoolers are stupid, but that they cocky, overconfident, and though well-intended, can cause a great deal of harm to themselves or others inadvertently. Wiring up new connectors and accidentally putting the hot wire on the ground terminal now sends electrical current through the body of your light fixture (and subsequently anything metal that's connected to that fixture -- say, an entire electric). It's a simple mistake, but has potentially fatal consequences.

When you start saying, "Ehh, it's okay to skimp on safety measures," at a young age, there's a reason you lose the respect of almost everyone here at CB. Many of us have worked with those types of people before -- it's scary. If you had wanted to make a thread discussing where the line should be drawn on standard safety measures, there would've been a much better way than saying, "I'm all for safety but when it starts becoming such a huge focus don't your shows all suffer?"

Because it starts with person who cuts a corner to not put safety cables on a few lights under mild pressure might be the person who under extreme pressure allows the one-man Genie lift to be used without outriggers or with the operator leaning out of the bucket because that fixture is just a _little_ too far away for him to comfortably reach, but you don't have time to properly move the Genie to a better location.

As a professional courtesy, I suggest you watch how you handle situations in the future. You've managed already to discredit yourself to a large number of people in this community, and your attitude is the specific attitude I watch for in people I'm working with. You're the type of person I make certain never makes it to crew management and likely only gets hired out of desperation and ends up pushing road cases when other people are performing skilled labor. Where I work, not only would we not trust you, but the last thing we would ever want is for you to spread your attitude amongst the crew. I don't care how well-intentioned or misunderstood or out of context your statements are, the moment a student is in a lift and says to themselves, "______ said it's okay to cut corners on safety every once in a while for the sake of the show so I think I can lean over this guard rail a little bit further," you've just taken an otherwise intelligent person and in a best case scenario broken at least half a dozen bones in their body.

Because that's what people will do. High schoolers especially. No matter how well they've been trained, they're always under a constant pressure to perform and don't necessarily realize they have the right to say, "I don't feel safe doing this, I'd prefer to work on something else." And I know there are people that want to show off their "mad skillzz" by getting the job done really quickly because they decided to pull the outriggers on the one-man lift. There's that confidence that they'll be just as safe and will show their employers how awesome they are at getting tasks done quickly.

I've seen your attitude in students before. Those students never get hired for events and only ever see the arts center if they're willing to some basic work in the scene shop for free. We won't hire them, we don't trust them, and we get nervous when they associate with the crew members we do trust.


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## dcollins (Jan 6, 2010)

cdub260 said:


> What you fail to understand is that each and every one of us who has been in this industry for any significant length of time has been exactly where you are now. We all had our notions of what was safe and what wasn't. Most of us were WRONG! Most learned how wrong they were through education, training and experience. A few, like me, had to learn how wrong we were by having or seeing an accident that could have been avoided had proper safety procedures been learned, understood, and followed.


Hey, I've been in this industry for less than six months. But what I've seen has proven to me that safety is always the first priority.

Define 'safety measures' to mean any procedure or policy which can prevent an accident. By this definition, safety measures are always to be given the top priority, because if they are not, you might not have a show.

Any safety measure which actually protects people (and equipment) MUST always be followed. Any safety measure that you were told to follow or which a piece of equipment tells you to follow will almost certainly actually protect people, and MUST always be followed.

The ONLY case where you should disregard a safety procedure is where you are ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN it is superfluous. For example, it's safe procedure to unplug an instrument before replacing a lamp. It's NOT OKAY to ignore this, even if you know that the board is setting this channel to zero, because you could be mistaken, the dimmer could be fried, etc. For another example, it's safe procedure to call heads (or 'coming in' or something like that) before dropping anything from height. It is NOT OKAY to ignore this, even if you think that no one else is in the room, because someone else may have walked in. (And what are you doing at height alone anyway?)

I'm trying to think of an example to the opposite, where a generally accepted safety policy may be unnecessary because you have the knowledge that it is safe, but I can't even think of one. You should never trust that anything is working, especially when you're working to recover from something not working. 

Ah, I have one.

It's generally accepted safety practice to hang any lighting instrument from a safety. If the instrument is on a vertical pipe, however, safetying it to the pipe itself is rather pointless. Typically what we do is have a horizontal supporting pipe about 9' up and safety one instrument to the horizontal pipe, and safety every other instrument to the instrument above it as well as the safety above it, so worst case we have a daisy chain of safeties supporting the lowest instrument. In this case, hanging an instrument off the vertical pipe is worthless (it's on the stage, not in the air, so even safetied, the instrument can fall) so typical safety does very little for you. That doesn't mean it's a waste of time and you should ignore it, but that you need to find another way of supporting the instrument.


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## fx120 (Jan 6, 2010)

On the genie lift topic, personally I believe that the outrigger-style single man lifts are totally inappropriate for use in a theater when hanging or focusing instruments because the need to move the lift is so frequent it leads the users to operate it in an unsafe manor or impedes the work and slows everything down to a crawl. 

There are a number of inexpensive and light weight aerial work platforms available from Genie and other manufacturers which can be safely repositioned while in the air. The cost of renting or purchasing them is not that much greater than of the outrigger style lifts, and they are much more versatile.


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## cdub260 (Jan 7, 2010)

fx120 said:


> On the genie lift topic, personally I believe that the outrigger-style single man lifts are totally inappropriate for use in a theater when hanging or focusing instruments because the need to move the lift is so frequent it leads the users to operate it in an unsafe manor or impedes the work and slows everything down to a crawl.
> 
> There are a number of inexpensive and light weight aerial work platforms available from Genie and other manufacturers which can be safely repositioned while in the air. The cost of renting or purchasing them is not that much greater than of the outrigger style lifts, and they are much more versatile.



This here is a perfect example of how preconceived notions of what is and is not safe can get you in trouble. Yes, aerial work platforms are versatile machines, but they are neither appropriate nor safe to use for all applications. My venue has several lighting positions that cannot be accessed using a scissor lift. One such position is in a location where the grade is too steep to use a scissor lift. In this location my outrigger style Genie man lift is the best work platform for the job as I can use the outriggers to level out the lift. Another two lighting positions can only be accessed with a boom lift as there is simply no way to safely get our scissor lift or our man lift to the area below these two positions. I have another two lighting positions where it's impossible to use any type of lift, safely or otherwise, as there is simply no way to get any type of lift in there. In these two locations, the appropriate work positioning tool is an extension ladder leaning against a wall.

So be careful when evaluating how safe a given piece of equipment is. While yes, in most instances an aerial work platform is probably a better choice than a man lift or a ladder, there are some instances where using one is not even an option. Don't let your preconceptions about safety prevent you from using the proper tool for a given task.


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## GreyWyvern (Jan 7, 2010)

DuckJordan said:


> as i see all of your posts you are saying the same thing that i want to cut out all safety from my theater that is not the case i don't have any disputes with the safety codes of our school its a discussion thread not an actual example everything i have stated about my school or as examples are hypothetical we do not wear hard hats in our venue nor have we ever been required to. hell gloves are optional on our fly rail which i believe is a stupid idea. also in a high school setting the only people with access to heights or any kind of electrical equipment next to outlets at ground level are people who have keys and training. this is a public school so safety is a huge deal. I am tired of people ASSUMING i mean to take safety out of the picture, but when i see several threads about how (not on this forum) you should always wear Rubber soles when plugging in any standard electric outlet it tells me that my generation obviously shouldn't be working with anything remotely hazardous in anyway because they can't or don't have the common sense to not stick a fork in a socket.
> 
> 
> I am in no way saying is not a huge priority and i guess people aren't understanding how i am stating it or they don't think about it they read it and just immediatly come to the conclusion if safety isn't first it isn't there. I never rush into a job without thinking first what could happen. Also to clarify working at heights I meant anything over 4 inches.



Holy crap! What did you just try to say? I can barely read it with the lack of capitalization and puncuation. It looks like one big, long sentence. I don't think anyone can understand what you are trying to say when it is written like that. Spend a little more time in English class, please.

Anyway, from what I can get out if it, it seems that your tune has changed a bit from your OP. That is a good thing, as it indicates that you have been reading everything that has been said. Please keep reading and try to soak in as much of what is being said as possible. Remember, you are not only responsible for your own safety, but the safety of anyone you are working around.


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## PeytonJr (Jan 9, 2010)

sstolnack said:


> I think the OP is talking about some of the saftey rules, that while may make sense on paper, aren't very realistic. Hard hats? haven't heard of it, but I doubt many theatres do that. The harness and clip onto catwalks? supposedly we're supposed to do that at my theatre, but there are guardrails all the way across. You'd have to try pretty hard to fall. Also, I don't believe we ever actually got the harnesses we were supposed to wear, and one of the lines we were supposed to clip onto was about 6 inches directly below the pipe to hang lights on. So unless we wanted to top hang all our lights on the catwalk... the people before me took it down as soon as they saw the problem. Also things like not moving a genie lift when someone's up in it. Sorry, I'm not going to come down so it can be moved 5 feet over to get to the next light.
> I'm all for saftey, but these are things that go a little over the top in my opinion.



Hey. I've seen some of how your genie is used in your theatre, and honestly, it's really unnerving. 
I would rather go down and back up, even if it takes a little more time. I have been pushed at height, but didn't like it very much at all. On one of two occasions while i was being pushed, the outriggers got caught on a bump in the floor, and lurched the lift to a halt, causing me to sway much more than what was comfortable. And the extra time that it takes is not much at all; around 30 seconds each time. Even if you add that up for, say, 40 different positions of the lift, thats only 20 minutes extra. So you have the rest of the crew go on break, work for 20 minutes, and be done right as the pizza arrives.


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## rochem (Jan 9, 2010)

PeytonJr said:


> And the extra time that it takes is not much at all; around 30 seconds each time. Even if you add that up for, say, 40 different positions of the lift, thats only 20 minutes extra. So you have the rest of the crew go on break, work for 20 minutes, and be done right as the pizza arrives.



Actually, I'd question that timing. Let's say your focusing down an electric, with 40 conventional units being focused. For each change of position, it might take about 30 seconds total travel time for the genie, but once you add up loosening the outriggers, moving the genie to the right location (finding the perfect balance between "not close enough" and "blocking the beam" can be difficult), and tightening the outriggers back down, I'd call that probably between a minute and a half, which would add to a full hour. And that's not even counting those situations where you get up there and find you're just out of reach of the unit, and have to come all the way back down to move it 2 inches. If you had a show that had 6 electrics with 40 units per electric (probably not very common these days), that's an additional 6 hours coming from just moving the genie around. Also remember that Union regs may not allow you to send half your crew off on break while the other half stays and works on the genie.


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## Studio (Jan 9, 2010)

rochem said:


> Actually, I'd question that timing. Let's say your focusing down an electric, with 40 conventional units being focused. For each change of position, it might take about 30 seconds total travel time for the genie, but once you add up loosening the outriggers, moving the genie to the right location (finding the perfect balance between "not close enough" and "blocking the beam" can be difficult), and tightening the outriggers back down, I'd call that probably between a minute and a half, which would add to a full hour. And that's not even counting those situations where you get up there and find you're just out of reach of the unit, and have to come all the way back down to move it 2 inches. If you had a show that had 6 electrics with 40 units per electric (probably not very common these days), that's an additional 6 hours coming from just moving the genie around. Also remember that Union regs may not allow you to send half your crew off on break while the other half stays and works on the genie.



Or you could use a step ladder as it doesn't take a minute to move, or use a lift with wheels because you are on stage, not trying to reach that one light on the FOH catwalk.


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## MNicolai (Jan 9, 2010)

Studio said:


> Or you could use a step ladder as it doesn't take a minute to move, or use a lift with wheels because you are on stage, not trying to reach that one light on the FOH catwalk.



Many theatres can't afford scissor lifts. Fortunately both venues I work at own scissors. The one is connected to a school district with a beefy building and grounds department so we have access to multiple scissor lifts, any number of ladders, and so on.

For the theatres that can't afford to have everything, the one-man is the do-all that gives them the most bang for the buck. Even with our scissors, we have situations we need a one-man for so we are currently in the market for one despite having those other lifts at our availability. The advantage of the scissor is that for regular use in a theatre application, the only ways you can really get hurt is to jump over the railing or drive it off of the apron.


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## GrayeKnight (Jan 9, 2010)

The only thing we have to reach our electrics is a nice 25' step ladder, annoying as anything to focus with.


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## What Rigger? (Jan 10, 2010)

This thread is full of dead people.

If the OP is anywhere near serious, then it's the King of All Kings idiot statement in the History of Everything.

Sorry for the harsh language kids, but it's the only way to communicate things sometimes.


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## dcollins (Jan 10, 2010)

What Rigger? said:


> This thread is full of dead people.



Quote of the week.


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## MarshallPope (Jan 10, 2010)

Here's a similar question, which I don't think has been brought up yet. If it has, please forgive me. 

At what point are you out of the "don't be stupid"/"just be careful" category and into the "Wear your harness"/"You're about to die" category? Standing on a chair? 6' step ladder? 25' A-frame? Railed catwalk? Hanging by your toes from the grid? All of these situations can be potentially fatal, even falling off of a chair. However, I don't see many people strapped in when they're just painting the top of a column that they couldn't quite reach from the ground.


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## Les (Jan 10, 2010)

I have heard, though it may be inaccurate, that any height above 6' requires a harness or OSHA appropriate handrails.

This site:OSHA Stairway and Handrail Regulations seems to cover the topic of ladders, handrails and stairwell railings in depth.


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## MNicolai (Jan 10, 2010)

MarshallPope said:


> Here's a similar question, which I don't think has been brought up yet. If it has, please forgive me.
> 
> At what point are you out of the "don't be stupid"/"just be careful" category and into the "Wear your harness"/"You're about to die" category? Standing on a chair? 6' step ladder? 25' A-frame? Railed catwalk? Hanging by your toes from the grid? All of these situations can be potentially fatal, even falling off of a chair. However, I don't see many people strapped in when they're just painting the top of a column that they couldn't quite reach from the ground.



Common sense. No OSHA regulations can make up for it. Where regulations come into play is when people enter situations where they aren't prepared with the instincts to work safely. If you're going to fall a couple feet off a chair, no harness is going to make you any safer, and though it's likely the fall will injure you, it would still be considered a freak accident if it proved fatal.

A harness on a 6' ladder is impractical. In most situations there wouldn't be an appropriate place to secure the harness to and to wear a harness anyways at that height would probably make the situation more dangerous and likely to cause the ladder to fall over.

Even on a 25' ladder a harness will more likely get in the way and contribute to it falling over. Just because you've worn a harness doesn't mean your any safer. As someone mentioned earlier, even if the harness initially saves you from the fall you might be even more endangered if you don't have an extraction plan in place. So let's say your fall was caused because your harness caused you to lose your balance while moving around at the top of the A-frame. If you don't have an extraction plan in place that'll get you down in time, you will likely pass out while hanging in the harness.

You wouldn't even be able to use a harness while focusing lights from a ladder anyways because you'd have to connect it to your electrics which is incredibly dangerous to do.

Most people have a point where they think something is dangerous. The first time they are in a lift they realize that's it a little bit freaky. That should be the indicator to them to fully appreciate what they're doing and (excuse the pun) the gravity of the situation they're in. The majority of accidents happen when people become too comfortable with what they're doing and their common sense dulls away.


Les said:


> I have heard, though it may be inaccurate, that any height above 6' requires a harness or OSHA appropriate handrails.
> 
> This site:OSHA Stairway and Handrail Regulations seems to cover the topic of ladders, handrails and stairwell railings in depth.



I think you've become confused with the statistic that most falls above 6' are fatal. Remember the last time you were on an 8' ladder and someone suggested you wear a harness?


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## jwl868 (Jan 10, 2010)

I have to disagree with the concept of common sense in the working environment. My "common" experiences are not necessarily the same as someone else's "common" experiences. If there was "common sense", there wouldn't be any need for training.

Regarding Heights and fall protection and OSHA. There is one standard for General Industry and a different standard for Construction. (The following are excerpts from the regs):

40 CFR 1910 (General Industry)
1910.23(c)

"Protection of open-sided floors, platforms, and runways."

1910.23(c)(1)

Every open-sided floor or platform 4 feet or more above adjacent floor or ground level shall be guarded by a standard railing (or the equivalent as specified in paragraph (e)(3) of this section) on all open sides except where there is entrance to a ramp, stairway, or fixed ladder. The railing shall be provided with a toeboard wherever, beneath the open sides,...



40 CF 1926 (Construction)
1926.501(b)(1)

"Unprotected sides and edges." Each employee on a walking/working surface (horizontal and vertical surface) with an unprotected side or edge which is 6 feet (1.8 m) or more above a lower level shall be protected from falling by the use of guardrail systems, safety net systems, or personal fall arrest systems....


Neither standard is applicable to ladder use.


Joe


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## MarshallPope (Jan 10, 2010)

jwl868 said:


> I have to disagree with the concept of common sense in the working environment.



Or at least exclusively common sense? I would definitely hope that there is some sort of common sense involved.


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## Les (Jan 10, 2010)

MNicolai said:


> I think you've become confused with the statistic that most falls above 6' are fatal. Remember the last time you were on an 8' ladder and someone suggested you wear a harness?



I was excluding ladders. That's a whole 'nother can o' worms.


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## mstaylor (Jan 10, 2010)

The reading of the safety regs will answer a lot of questions. Nothing can replace getting training in the regs and how they are applied.


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## MNicolai (Jan 11, 2010)

That's why I say common sense leads us only as far as we're naturally prepared to go, which is where standards set in place for the workplace by groups like OSHA, NEC, and so on allow us to function safely with the knowledge they've done the research to derive safe practices that our natural common sense may not have lead us to. The hand-off between common sense and regulation is where people start to function in a capacity they maybe aren't use to.

For example, how to use a hammer is pretty simple. Hopefully most of us can figure that one out on our own. It would be pointless of OSHA to spend a lot of time putting together regulations and standards for hammer use unless there was it was clear that people were having trouble doing that. However, the safe operation of an articulating boom lift on a sloped surface probably falls beyond the bounds of said natural intelligence. People can take rough estimates on what's safe and what isn't, but they'd be at best educated guesses. That's where OSHA and the manufacturer's of that equipment step in and have their rules, regulations, and words of wisdom to point out clearly to everyone what practices are or are not safe.

If it was OSHA's job to navigate common sense by making rules on how people should use regular hammers, step stools, and office supplies, nothing would ever get done because everyone would be regulation happy. When I'm at work, I rely on OSHA not to tell me how to tie my shoes (unless I'm wearing specific PPE that requires a special way to have them tied), but to provide a means for me to get my duties done without maiming myself. Thus, I think common sense and natural intelligence are a defining point between "Just be careful" and "You'd better not get killed because if you do I have to fill out of a lot of paperwork."


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## photoatdv (Jan 11, 2010)

"You'd better not get killed because if you do I have to fill out of a lot of paperwork."

My boss jokingly states that one on a daily basis


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## mstaylor (Jan 11, 2010)

An instructor for a forklift certification class once said that if you mess up and hurt somebody, it's seven pages or paperwork, if you kill them it's one. 
A fork is a good example of a required cert that isn't that hard to get but the training is invaluable. To get on a fork and move things from point A to point B isn't that hard to learn, but knowing how lifting higher or moving things out on the forks changes the capacity is something a fork op needs to know. Knowing where the data plates are and what the info means is not an obvious thing to pick up that training will teach you. 
Fall protection, lifts of all types and scaffolding are all things we should learn about. For anybody that works with the public should know basic firast-aid, CPR and operation of AEDs.


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## gafftaper (Jan 11, 2010)

Well I'm a little late to this discussion but I want to throw out a story about how it's done in a big time show. (As you no doubt are sick of me talking about by now) I took that backstage tour at Cirque Du Soleil Ka during LDI 2008. On the tour we noticed that just about everyone on the crew was wearing a harness. We were told this was because the policy is if you get within 3 feet of an edge you hook in. All over the theater there are areas painted yellow marking that the 6 foot line and a conveniently located way to hook in. 

So during the performance I was lucky enough to be paired up with the deck electrician and follow him on stage. At a couple of different points in the show he goes out on a stage about 25' square which is open to a 20'+ fall in the front edge. He walks out on the deck between scenes to place specials and help with the placement of props. He told me that while some of these jobs technically belong to someone else he's already out there and already harnessed in so it just makes sense for him to do the prop placement work. I commented that it seemed a little odd to me that he needed to be harnessed in when on the deck as he doesn't get anywhere near the front edge and it slows him down quite a bit to get out there because of the retractor. He told me that after 5 or 6 years of doing this show 10 times a week he fell off that stage just a few weeks before. It's a fall that would have easily killed him. Okay, point taken. 

While the technical wizardry was amazing backstage at KA, I was even more impressed at the level of attention paid to safety. It doesn't get any more big time than Cirque and I assure you they never cut a corner, they get the job done safely, and if a situation is too dangerous the show get's canceled. This is a show that generates $500,000 per night. Canceling a performance is SERIOUS money. If you were working there and got caught not hooking in because it slows you down too much. You would be fired immediately. We are talking about a show that generates about $5,000,000 per week... and the show does *NOT* go on if there is a dangerous situation. 

Do you want to be a professional stage technician and have a chance to work a big time gig some day? Learn to do your job safely.


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## Chris15 (Jan 14, 2010)

I'm going to have to conditionally disagree with one of the statements made earlier on in this discussion:

cprted said:


> Safety isn't a waste of time. If it can't be done safely, don't do it. Being injured sucks. Being dead sucks more.



I would contend that serious injury sucks more than dead. If you end up quadriplegic for the rest of your life, in many cases you'd probably prefer you'd been finished off. Serious injury is in many cases a far more painful outcome than death, the quality of life for the individual affected just isn't there. 

It was touched on previously. In a fall arrest harness you have just 20 minutes before you sustain permanent damage to your body after a fall. Hence the criticality of a rescue plan before you start climbing.

Yes, at times "safety" can be complete overkill. I've been told a story of an orchestra playing in an exhibition hall you had to put on hi vis to walk 10m from the door onto the stage because a forklift was operating in some far corner of the space. Yes a spotter would have been a more effective means of managing the risk in this instance - the orchestra were permitting to ditch their vests once on stage. But you know what? They all did it, stupid as it was.

Most audience would be utterly appalled if they knew someone had risked their life for a mere show. If we were in any other industry you would not even think about taking the risk.

I've seen multi million dollar fireworks displays cancelled because the weather was not right and thus it was not safe to continue. And we're talking here about displays that get beamed to television across the globe.

Most normal people will understand if you have to delay or can a show because it was unsafe not to.

That said, have we all at times, with the adrenalin of a show running done something that in hindsight was unwise? Sure. I did it a month ago. With experience you get to a point where you can do a quick and dirty risk assessment mentally in the heat of the moment and thus make decisions accordingly. To do so takes experience and an understanding of the components of the task - how they relate to physics say in the case of heights etc. etc.

Ultimately it comes down to (in my mind) if safety is not the foremost priority, then the show better be worth dieing for...


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