# Yet another stage flooring question.



## BillConnerFASTC (Dec 11, 2019)

Assuming by choice or necessity you paint scenery on stage and attach scenery to the floor, don't you expect that you will have to touch up the floor paint from time to time?


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## Colin (Dec 11, 2019)

Of course, and even sand/scrape some spots flat on occasion. I sense a story behind the query...


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## sk8rsdad (Dec 11, 2019)

Assuming the stage is in a venue that routinely erects scenery then it should be treated like any other construction work space, with perhaps a little more consideration than the workshop for dust management. The floor is just another part of the set.

Recital halls or road houses with several shows per week are a different story.


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## Van (Dec 11, 2019)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> Assuming by choice or necessity you paint scenery on stage and attach scenery to the floor, don't you expect that you will have to touch up the floor paint from time to time?


Depends are we talking Owner or Architect? Because the Design team, typically, seems to think places stay pristine after they walk away.


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## tjrobb (Dec 11, 2019)

Van said:


> Depends are we talking Owner or Architect? Because the Design team, typically, seems to think places stay pristine after they walk away.


I had an architect complain to my boss, "all [boss] thinks about is maintenance." He's the maintenance supervisor...


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## RickR (Dec 11, 2019)

One contractor repainted a school stage floor 3 times because of the horrible gray footprints. 

Then there was a rehearsal!


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## Amiers (Dec 11, 2019)

Once way back when. Someone... tripped over a bucket of smelly muck on the stage floor that was a mix of whites and tans. Most of it got cleaned up but the next week it was obvious what didn’t and someone had to stay late with the TD and repaint the floor.

Reasons why stages get repainted.


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## YesItWillWork (Dec 11, 2019)

We absolutely expect it. We've been in our new venue for 5 months and repainted the stage for the first time last week. Admittedly not all the need for repainting can be blamed on theatre usage considering how much construction was still ongoing when it was originally painted. 

And we won't go into how much the architects would have benefited from reading some of the stage flooring discussion on here. At least they've largely rectified what was an incredibly bubbly floor at the start.


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## macsound (Dec 11, 2019)

If you're a school or other venue coming from a plank stage covered in laquer, you'd think they'd expect at-the-least annual maintenance.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Dec 11, 2019)

Van said:


> Depends are we talking Owner or Architect? Because the Design team, typically, seems to think places stay pristine after they walk away.


The business manager of a private school who started the job during construction - not a part of design - thinks the gaffers tape peeling is a design or construction defect. They already painted scenery on stage and left thick drools if paint, and painted over it.


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## Van (Dec 11, 2019)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> The business manager of a private school who started the job during construction - not a part of design - thinks the gaffers tape peeling is a design or construction defect. They already painted scenery on stage and left thick drools if paint, and painted over it.


Oy Vey!


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## BillConnerFASTC (Dec 11, 2019)

Consulting for close to 40 years, floors remain a bugaboo. Black dye on old growth southern yellow pine was terrific but the supply of old growth sup ran out. Painted Masonite was ok but Masonite ran out. Since then, no perfect or risk free solution (if you're going to allow fasteners and painting scenery on stage ,)

So I'm running out.


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## Jay Ashworth (Dec 13, 2019)

Walk, please; we don't want you to fall.

Why *did* they stop manufacturing Masonite?


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## BillConnerFASTC (Feb 18, 2020)

This one still active. I learned today the installer sanded the hardboard. I never heard of that, and the manufacturer's rep seemed taken aback. Has anyone here sanded or purposely not sanded hardboard floor before painting it? I would think it would disturb the tempered surface which is what makes it so good with paint.


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## TimMc (Feb 18, 2020)

Uhhhh, sanding hardboard? Sure, if you're trying to re-invent the Paint Sponge.

I'm not sure how to write contract language that says "client silliness ain't my problem."


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## BillConnerFASTC (Feb 19, 2020)

Find a source or data sheet that says don't sand hardboard. I haven't.


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## TimMc (Feb 19, 2020)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> Find a source or data sheet that says don't sand hardboard. I haven't.


I'm sure the reason we can't find that is because it's good for hardboard sales... and that sanding thru the tempered surface does not change the specifications for the product. It changes the results to the end users, but nothing about the physical, structural properties of the product are affected by sanding.


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## ACTSTech (Feb 20, 2020)

According to my wood savvy friend, @TimMc is correct, sanding the hardboard doesn’t change the product and therefore there’s no reason to create a data sheet saying don’t sand it. Also, there’s no health concerns beyond dust, so TECHNICALLY there’s no need to manufacture any MSDS data sheet that might tell you to not sand.

My thought is that the manufacturer doesn’t think people plan on ever sanding it or painting it. They sell it as is assuming that the purchaser is going to use it correctly and the end user will never do anything to damage it, and when they do they’ll just buy new. Like @Van said, they tend to think things stay pristine.

A college venue replaced their stage with a new light blond surface because the president liked the look and the architect sold him on it. After band and orchestra rehearsals 4 or 5 days a week plus concerts, a few one-off touring shows, a dance show without marley of course since the new stage was to be shown off, a musical, an opera and other usage, the once shiny floor was dirty and dull and the janitor cleaned it on his regular rotation if nothing was in there with a mop and the same floor cleaner as was used on tile. At graduation, the president nearly exploded at the condition of the wood. After verbally undressing the staff at the venue, he called the architect to complain, and was told that the wood which was chosen was not meant for that kind of heavy use and why didn’t they inform him of all the wear and tear that stage deck would be subject to? They would have suggested something else.

Long story short, they don’t expect anyone to do things they didn’t think you’d do.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Feb 20, 2020)

But how deep is tempering today and how does it affect paint bonding? I never sanded hardboard and it seemed to hold paint well. The flooring contractor sanded this hardboard and paint just peels off. It doesn't peel off the pit filler which I thought was not sanded, but don't know yet.


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## ACTSTech (Feb 20, 2020)

I’d assume each manufacturer has their own tempering process so you couldn’t make a blanket statement about depth. Plus, for example, if they treat it with linseed oil, the amount and quality of oil mixed with the type of fibers that make up the board would affect the end product. Was it kiln tempered or pressure treated or what? Is every run the same and are all your pieces from the same run? Personally, I’ve never sanded hardboard prior to painting, so I don’t know the answer. It’s a quite interesting question.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Feb 20, 2020)

Pretty sure the stage floor is all the same Stimson hardboard and the pit filler all DPI.


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## teqniqal (Feb 21, 2020)

I think this has more to do with the paint formulatin than it does with the hardboard, assuming you are using Class 4 or 5 hardboard, not the Class 0 junk sold at the big box stores. We specify a 2-part epoxy industrial floor paint. IF (and that's a big IF) you can keep everyone from painting and spilling paint on the floor (eg: Paint large items in the shop and use drop cloths under on-the-stage touch-ups; and use painted stage floor drops for scenes that need a 'not black' floor), then regular cleaning of the stage with a damp mop and clean water will keep it looking nice for a long time. When you finally have not done the thing I just said to not do, then a light scuffing of the epoxy finish on the floor will suffice before you paint it again with a 2-part epoxy industrial floor paint. IMHO Rosco tough Prime is NOT a good long-term solution, and when you just keep painting it over and over and over and over, you can't expect it to bond layer-to-layer well enough to hold against tape peel-offs.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Feb 21, 2020)

teqniqal said:


> IF (and that's a big IF) you can keep everyone from painting and spilling paint on the floor


Well, that ship sailed before the building was complete. I just don't see keeping the floor free of scenery paint and anchors feasible in all but a pure recital hall.

The hardboard on the pit filler - DPI - doesn't peel. The hardboard on the plyron - Stimson - peels easily, almost from scuffing and more with tape. I doubt it's the paint, which is working fine on a project on other side of town. It may be the hardboard doesn't meet spec. Trying to find a test for it.


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## ACTSTech (Feb 21, 2020)

Is it just one type of paint or many types? I’ve seen people use latex because it’s a pretty quick solution to fast touch-ups, but it’s obviously not a long term solution. Would temperature and climate affect the paint?


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## BillConnerFASTC (Feb 21, 2020)

It's all new, PPG Breakthrough. 100% acyrlic, just like Rosco Tough Prime and it has performed very well on many stage, over 50 I've consulted on. And it performs well here on the DPI hardboard. So what in the prep, sanding, hardboard mix causes this one to fail?


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## ACTSTech (Feb 21, 2020)

That’s a head scratcher. I asked because in the dark ages, a set was being painted using old casein paint which required some heating and created some awful aromas... long story short, the set shop had to remain constant for the binder and pigment to dry the way the artist wanted it.

I’m beginning to wonder if the stage wasn’t treated with something beyond what the hardboard was cured with. Was it exposed to something that might cause the paint to not bind? Is there an oil that was used in the curing process? Did someone wax the floor? Wash with oil soap? Seal it with something extra?

EDIT: @RonHebbard pointed out that I’m communication inept. The set shop had to stay between 65 and 70 degrees F, which was hard in the middle of winter when you have old steam heat radiators and a few blowers. We couldn’t open the loading bay door because of the temperature outside, and running the exhaust fans drew too much cold air. Also, because of the steam heat, we had to be extra careful of the humidity because that would change how the paint dried if the air got too dry or too damp. The smell was awful, but eventually the scenery looked amazing, but it was pretty miserable inside for a while. My thoughts were that maybe there’s some environmental issue causing the paint to not adhere.


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