# SJO cable in a theater



## mrb (Apr 23, 2009)

Is SJO cable allowed to be used in a theater (for use other than breakouts and two-fers)? I saw a new install and all the cable was SJO. I was under the impression the NEC calls for pretty much everything except breakouts and two-fers to be SO cable. I appreciate any info


----------



## Esoteric (Apr 24, 2009)

Yes. NEC specifies SO Cord.

Mike


----------



## ship (Apr 24, 2009)

What's the specific classification of the theater space verses "Assembly Hall" by way of code?

Type "S" Extra Hard Service in general is the norm and required but type "SJ" Junior Hard Service at times is appropriate, or at least acceptable. Little specific details also about support verses drop or floor uses also tangling up the specifics beyond length. That said, if theater proper, I would question and not accept SJ.

Bean counters or sales people in quoting out what is cheaper on the other hand is the next battle in getting what they would for budget. Once the contract is signed in often neither the buyer or the sales person knowing code or the requirements of the space gets done, hard to re-do what the budget afforded or what was in best intent or signed for reversed. In theory those supervising the space in a tech sense know whats' required and have imput, but often that's not the case. Often even if imput, it's not the case those managing the space have any idea of what they want or need.


Lots of wiggle room and stuff we could get into in length about this whole concept, even an orange extension cord acceptance. Hard battle overall to fight and figure out.


----------



## mrb (Apr 24, 2009)

the 'theater' in question is a dedicated performing arts space with a permanant stage and permanant audience seating. Trusses and whatnot hung in the air with fixtures on them which will be cabled in place for years. 

Theater right?

Seems to me like it should all be SO, except for twofers and breakouts. 

I keep seeing people mention that its ok if the SJ cable is fixed to truss or battens or whatever, but I cant find anything in the code allowing it. 520 seems pretty cut and dry about which cable is allowed where.


----------



## STEVETERRY (Apr 24, 2009)

mrb said:


> Is SJO cable allowed to be used in a theater (for use other than breakouts and two-fers)? I saw a new install and all the cable was SJO. I was under the impression the NEC calls for pretty much everything except breakouts and two-fers to be SO cable. I appreciate any info



For areas covered by NEC article 520, it has to be extra-hard usage cable, that is type S and derivatives. Junior hard service cord, type SJ and derivatives is only allowed for twofers and breakouts under certain length and mounting restrictions.

_520.1 Scope.
This article covers all buildings or that part of a building or structure, indoor or outdoor, designed or used for presentation, dramatic, musical, motion picture projection, or similar purposes and to specific audience seating areas within motion picture or television studios._

For assembly occupancies covered by Article 518 , both types are acceptable. However, Article 520 rules, even in 518 spaces, under certain conditions:

_518.1 Scope.
Except for the assembly occupancies explicitly covered by 520.1, this article covers all buildings or portions of buildings or structures designed or intended for the gathering together of 100 or more persons for such purposes as deliberation, worship, entertainment, eating, drinking, amusement, awaiting transportation, or similar purposes.

518.2 General Classification.
(A) Examples. Assembly occupancies shall include, but not be limited to, the following:

Armories	Exhibition halls 
Assembly halls	Gymnasiums 
Auditoriums	Mortuary chapels 
Bowling lanes	Multipurpose rooms 
Club rooms	Museums 
Conference rooms	Places of awaiting transportation 
Courtrooms	Places of religious worship 
Dance halls	Pool rooms 
Dining and drinking 
facilities	Restaurants 
Skating rinks 

(B) Multiple Occupancies. Where an assembly occupancy forms a portion of a building containing other occupancies, Article 518 applies only to that portion of the building considered an assembly occupancy. Occupancy of any room or space for assembly purposes by less than 100 persons in a building of other occupancy, and incidental to such other occupancy, shall be classified as part of the other occupancy and subject to the provisions applicable thereto.
*(C) Theatrical Areas. Where any such building structure, or portion thereof, contains a projection booth or stage platform or area for the presentation of theatrical or musical productions, either fixed or portable, the wiring for that area, including associated audience seating areas, and all equipment that is used in the referenced area, and portable equipment and wiring for use in the production that will not be connected to permanently installed wiring, shall comply with Article 520.*
FPN: For methods of determining population capacity, see local building code or, in its absence, NFPA 101-2006, Life Safety Code._

(copyright NFPA)

ST


----------



## STEVETERRY (Apr 24, 2009)

ship said:


> What's the specific classification of the theater space verses "Assembly Hall" by way of code?



I listed the scopes of both 518 and 520 in another post, which I think will answer that question.

ST


----------



## mrb (Apr 24, 2009)

STEVETERRY said:


> I listed the scopes of both 518 and 520 in another post, which I think will answer that question.
> 
> ST



seems really cut and dry, if youve got a stage -youre under 520 (for the stage and its audience area)


----------



## TimMiller (Apr 24, 2009)

I would inform them that their cabling is not to code, and that they should go after the company that did the install, lots of people think that all 12/3 is the same.


----------



## Footer (Apr 24, 2009)

I am fighting this exact thing with my district. People before me used orange and yellow extension cord with stagepin ends. Told them I need 2k too bring the place up to code. They said I was already there. I told them they were wrong... cited sources.... all new cable and two-fers coming.


----------



## mrb (Apr 24, 2009)

Footer said:


> I am fighting this exact thing with my district. People before me used orange and yellow extension cord with stagepin ends. Told them I need 2k too bring the place up to code. They said I was already there. I told them they were wrong... cited sources.... all new cable and two-fers coming.



If your orange and yellow cables are STW and not SJTW they would actually be ok....unlikely, but possible.


----------



## n1ist (Apr 25, 2009)

I just find it so annoying to haul in all of my SO cable and find the sound/photo/concession guys showing up with orange SJ or worse (hotdog warmers on SPT2...). The past few shows I have ended up running my own cables at least for the sound guys. Everyone else also likes to forget the gaff and wants to use mine too.


----------



## Grog12 (Apr 26, 2009)

http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/lighting/4420-se-vs-so-cable-question-ship.html This question in a little more depth answered by our own Ship.

For the record this post is what brought me to CB in the first place as I was trying to answer this question.


----------



## ship (Apr 28, 2009)

Steve is much more specific to code in detail than I am on these articles than I am. In his posting the specific guidelines I generally follow, if in question its' a good point to start from.

Color of the cable in by way of SJT verses SJ being the same by code as SEOOW as SOOW though not the same if it touches a lighting fixture in a safety thing. 


Still though the spcific classification by way of the local athourities of the theater and it's use by classification or use will dictate - I know for fact SJ cable tours around the world and domestically with lighting systems be it band or play no matter the size of the theater. This said, I still wouldn't for theater cable specify less than SO cable and in fact don't. My choice, it would all be SO cable but not mine in the end. For non-touring use on the other hand, and where it wasn't touring persay, yes... type S and not "Junior Hard Service" SJ. This much less no thermoplastic cable allowed.


----------



## STEVETERRY (Apr 28, 2009)

ship said:


> This said, I still wouldn't for theater cable specify less than SO cable and in fact don't. My choice, it would all be SO cable but not mine in the end. For non-touring use on the other hand, and where it wasn't touring persay, yes... type S and not "Junior Hard Service" SJ. This much less no thermoplastic cable allowed.



Ship, not to lecture you, but this raises a bigger question on code compliance: "Is it OK to violate the Code if my manager or boss says so, or if such-and-such a tour does it all the time?"

My view, especially on this Forum, is that we need to take the high road and describe the current Code requirements only, not "Here are the Code requirements, but many people do it in the following non-compliant manner that you need to consider as well".

The Code is an ever-changing document--every three years we all get the opportunity to have input. Perhaps there is actually an argument to increase the permissibility of SJ in the theatre (I'm not taking a position here, just using this as an example of how the Code might change). If so, people should submit public proposals in the next Code Cycle (the period Sept 2010-November 2011 is the next time new material can be proposed for the 2014 Code).

Meanwhile, my personal preference is to discourage non-compliant stuff in whatever manner I can!

Cheers

ST


----------



## ship (Apr 28, 2009)

I agree with type S and did over a period of years even for our believe it was 75 seat store front theater convert it to completely S grade. If of help, I firmly believe that type S (especially non-EU complant) cable is by far superior in both safety and life over that of a type SJ cable no matter the type.

In general, another standpoint would be average service life of a type S cable starts at 10 years and goes to about 20 years. In a cost effective way, type SJ cable normally lasts about five to ten years in use. Even if double the price type S cable is not, it's more cost effective.

On the other hand, I have only worked where I work ten years now in being the buyer and in many ways ME for wiring, but working under mananagers and boss's also. Yes, I do take responsibility for us using type SJ cable for the primary pourpose of the touring industry and believe it's code compliant for use. It's a touring company and type SJ cable since the days of L5-15 plugs on 14/3 SJOOW cable has had a long change over - first to stage pin slightly before my time, and me to 12/3 SJ at least in slipping in some SOOW where possible as available for use on shows.

I make the cable but don't pull it or specify it's use for shows. If say some rock band is "Rocking the Paradise", in bringing cable I built or supervise the construction and maintinence of, is using it in a class 1A type theater, I have no say in this nor do I even know while building it at times years before it's use, any imput into how its used. I do where possible educate about the need for type S cable if on the floor or a drop, but my build/fix world is also very apart from the production side in application.

A question I think more for the local authorities in allowing it, those specifying the gear to be used, and those using it on-site to choose what's used as compliant. Type S cable is also in stock or easy enough to construct on request before the show leaves. In no way do I argue that type SJ cable is suitable for a theater requiring proper stage cable, no do I even prefer the stuff. On the other hand, I do note it's useage even after broken by way of running it thru a closed door and destroyed at times. I do tend to ask the crew chief for the show what he or she was thinking in allowing that use as with other things noted unsafe in at times tracking them down to educate them. More or less a constant tracking down and yelling at those responsible type of thing in even if as often the case these days, a free lance person having done the show and me contacting the production manager so as to not re-hire the guy.

Still though, I don't choose the gear, nor do the shows. I cite shows don't comply but also note that most of their fixtures are in the air with compliant Soco drops to the deck. Believe type SJ cable supported by a truss is compliant - but I wouldn't accept it for house cable in doing so. 

Not lecture, debate and good points on your part in also healthy in bringing out from both of us more info or opinion. Hopefully I have explained my situation better and or why I noted what I did.


----------



## gafftaper (Apr 29, 2009)

Just want to say thanks to Ship and ST.  

I'm not an electrician and I don't play one on TV, so it's fascinating to read CB's Titan's of Electricity hashing out the finer points of the NEC. 

Thanks guys.


----------



## TimMiller (Apr 29, 2009)

STEVETERRY said:


> Ship, not to lecture you, but this raises a bigger question on code compliance: "Is it OK to violate the Code if my manager or boss says so, or if such-and-such a tour does it all the time?"



Its never ok to violate the code just because you are told to, and when you run into a fire marshall who hates everyone, he will stick you with everything in the book. On tours i occasionally use SOOW in the Prerigged. For temporary things it falls under the temporary part of the NEC, also the cable is loomed up in truss so it is well protected. All motor cables and cables running along the ground are SO. Also the speaker cables are SOOW.


----------



## BillESC (May 1, 2009)

I don't have the latest NEC book. What are the regs regarding quad boxes on stage?


----------



## STEVETERRY (May 5, 2009)

BillESC said:


> I don't have the latest NEC book. What are the regs regarding quad boxes on stage?



There is no prohibition, as long as they are fed with Extra Hard Usage cable, type S or derivatives.

ST


----------



## mrb (Oct 26, 2009)

BillESC said:


> I don't have the latest NEC book. What are the regs regarding quad boxes on stage?



you cannot ever, ever, ever use a regular 'outlet box' like what you would attach to a building such as a 4S box, or outdoor junction box as some use. You have to use a proper pendant box like those from Woodhead, Hubbell, and others. While it does violate the NEC technically via listed use of the box, OSHA specifically prohibits it.


----------



## ship (Oct 26, 2009)

mrb said:


> you cannot ever, ever, ever use a regular 'outlet box' like what you would attach to a building such as a 4S box, or outdoor junction box as some use. You have to use a proper pendant box like those from Woodhead, Hubbell, and others. While it does violate the NEC technically via listed use of the box, OSHA specifically prohibits it.



1900 type quad boxes when I see them are destroyed and not sent back to the company that made them even if marked as to owner when they don't get back to the owner. Very much dislike of such boxes in having seen knockouts broken and coming close to if not shorting to a terminal. Bell Box types and other gear, perhaps dependant on workmanship. Past inspector for us in powering up a work table required indicator lights on such a quad box so as to tell when live I expect. For more my norm, anything I might make or accept requires no more than a three foot extension an an indicator light on it.

By code also I believe it is a 36" maximum length on stage for SJ type cable which would allow for fanouts and adaptors in general.


----------



## mrb (Oct 26, 2009)

ship said:


> 1900 type quad boxes when I see them are destroyed and not sent back to the company that made them even if marked as to owner when they don't get back to the owner. Very much dislike of such boxes in having seen knockouts broken and coming close to if not shorting to a terminal. Bell Box types and other gear, perhaps dependant on workmanship. Past inspector for us in powering up a work table required indicator lights on such a quad box so as to tell when live I expect. For more my norm, anything I might make or accept requires no more than a three foot extension an an indicator light on it.
> 
> By code also I believe it is a 36" maximum length on stage for SJ type cable which would allow for fanouts and adaptors in general.



Bell boxes are not ok either, I admittedly have some which I use in certain temporary power applications (they are very well assembled with real cable glands, loctite on threads, etc) but the only thing thats legal to use is a listed pendant box. 

Here is the osha reg on the matter
"boxing intended for use in a permanent installation may not be used (1910.303(b)(1)(i) and 1926.403(b)(1)(i)); "
basically anything but a proper pendant box is out.

As far as the allowed length of junior cord, I checked the 2005 NEC -I was wrong. 3.3ft is the max allowed length for adapters and twofers. A breakout can have junior cord as long as the longest tail is no more than 20 feet. I dont know where I got six feet from......


----------



## ship (Oct 28, 2009)

mrb said:


> Bell boxes are not ok either, I admittedly have some which I use in certain temporary power applications (they are very well assembled with real cable glands, loctite on threads, etc) but the only thing thats legal to use is a listed pendant box.
> 
> Here is the osha reg on the matter
> "boxing intended for use in a permanent installation may not be used (1910.303(b)(1)(i) and 1926.403(b)(1)(i)); "
> ...



Agreed on the Bell box but in use over a 1900 box for temp. service and I do think the code or regulation should change on this if other than perminant install dependant on the situation.

Also remember notes to the NEC about SJ cable supported by truss but it could be in part of the 20' though rarely is a truss that short. Not for a cable drop though that's mostly ignored if only a few where a Soco cable isn't used, and I do fight constantly people using SJ cable on the deck but don't do shows and that's common for touring.

Beyond regulation is enforcement and training in my opionion. Rejected something that doesn't have the new fire marshall walked out the door (as told about), or tech people not doing what is not permissible is the key. Primary concern about a 1900 box is that some knockout will get knocked in and touch a terminal as I have seen and good reason for it not being allowed. Bell box and well done, I would say a reason for its use. Some drop box with like $60.00 strain relief alone for a quad box, probably not the best solution if other ways are easier and just as safe.


On the other hand, if in a static space doing it properly is the correct and proper way to do it and road show and temporary stuff situation does not apply.


----------



## gafftaper (Jul 29, 2015)

A follow up question to this fantastic old thread with a new LED twist. 

In my theater I have switchable non-dim circuits with nema 5-15 plugs. I want to run an extension cord from a non-dim about 60 feet to a 6 way splitter and then from there to 6 LED Pars (total of 148 watts each for a total of 880 watts/7.4 amps). 

I assume I need to use SO cable for the main cord (no SJ exceptions for LED's on non-dims right?). From the charts I see, it looks like 12/3 should be able to handle at least 15 amps at 60 foot length, so I'm great with only a 7.4 amp load. My question is what is the proper way to deal with the 6 way splitter. I'm pretty sure it's not okay to build my own 6 gang box at Home depot and it's not okay to just buy any old power strip. So what is the appropriate way to split my power 6 ways at the end of the cable? 

Thanks!


----------



## JohnD (Jul 29, 2015)

An Edison twofer and two of these:


Better yet convince the money people you need a Lex E-String or two.
http://www.productionadvantageonline.com/Products/50116BA.aspx
However the hard usage cable they use is STW, not SO, but still I think it is a good thing to have, for band backline and such.


----------



## gafftaper (Jul 29, 2015)

E-strings are great but won't do what I want. 

To be more clear if I can't use an off the shelf power strip, this is what I would like to do. I've got three side ladders with two LED PARs on each ladder. What I would like to do is run the SO into a dual gang Junction box, split it into three lines inside. Each of the three lines runs to a single gang Junction box with two outlets. 

But I want to do this right.


----------



## Footer (Jul 29, 2015)

No thru on the LED units? That is a bummer.

I HATE metal junction boxes onstage for so many reasons, they should be avoided. The plastic ones are out there. They are not cheap but they can found. 

The "right" way to do this is really up for discussion. I'm going to be interested to see how much longer the SO cable thing lasts now that we are moving to smaller loads that produce less heat. I would buy a few of these: http://whirlwindusa.com/catalog/power-electrical-distribution/edison-boxes/pl1-420-wh . Lex makes the same thing. Drop a box at your first position, run to your next, drop a box, continue. You could also go with the more traditional "doghouse" approach using L5-20's. http://www.lexproducts.com/products...-amp-doghouse-to-duplex-receptacles-feed-thru


----------



## soundman (Jul 29, 2015)

Footer said:


> I'm going to be interested to see how much longer the SO cable thing lasts now that we are moving to smaller loads that produce less heat.



I think the SO or SOOW is here to stay. Its my understanding that the lettering has more to do with how well the jacket will protect the conductors than the ability to hold up to heat. It is possible to get 18/3 SOOW for lower wattage loads.


----------



## Footer (Jul 29, 2015)

soundman said:


> I think the SO or SOOW is here to stay. Its my understanding that the lettering has more to do with how well the jacket will protect the conductors than the ability to hold up to heat. It is possible to get 18/3 SOOW for lower wattage loads.



Well aware of that. However, with the number of exceptions out there for to allow for SJ cable I'm not really sure if I see the point anymore. The whip of a fixture and a lead of a soca breakout get the most abuse out of any cabling and yet we are OK with SJ there. Just don't run SJ between the two. I do get the point of the SO everywhere stuff. We spent 30k on cable to ensure we had SO everywhere just a few years ago. We are already in the phase where we are running powercon or powercon-True1 on everything and daisy chaining. Unless there is someone doing it that I'm not aware of, I have only seen those jumpers built out of SJ cable. Both Lex and Whirlwind do SJ as standard on these types of connectors. It might not be right, but it is being done. I put it right up there with the 3 pin DMX thing. Might not be right, but it became industry standard anyway.


----------



## soundman (Jul 30, 2015)

Motion labs uses SOOW in their assemblies. What I see on the road is maybe 25% SJ so someone else is likely making it.


----------



## SteveB (Jul 30, 2015)

I think the code compliant way to do this kind of distro is to use plastic boxes such as these:

http://www.molex.com/woodhead/produ...boxes&channel=products&pageTitle=Introduction

They are indeed pricey, but also very durable, requiring very little maintenance long term. They do come in black and can be built to provide a pass-thru connection for daisy chaining. I only wish Lex Products manufactured something similar.


----------



## BillESC (Jul 30, 2015)

Hard to beat OA Windsor's boxes.


----------



## Footer (Jul 30, 2015)

SteveB said:


> I think the code compliant way to do this kind of distro is to use plastic boxes such as these:
> 
> http://www.molex.com/woodhead/produ...boxes&channel=products&pageTitle=Introduction
> 
> They are indeed pricey, but also very durable, requiring very little maintenance long term. They do come in black and can be built to provide a pass-thru connection for daisy chaining. I only wish Lex Products manufactured something similar.



Lex does, it is just not a catalog item. They will build the traditional quad box with a SO lead. Motion labs and Whirlwind will do it as well. I don't know why it is not a catalog item but there ya have it.


----------



## SteveB (Jul 30, 2015)

Footer said:


> Lex does, it is just not a catalog item. They will build the traditional quad box with a SO lead. Motion labs and Whirlwind will do it as well. I don't know why it is not a catalog item but there ya have it.



If anybody from Lex is listening, you 'all need to update your website for this stuff. I'm as likely to call my electrical supplier for the assorted parts and to get pricing, as I would be to call a Lex dealer to get pricing. If it was on the website I could readily access product numbers. Makes life easier when specifying and budgeting . Rant over.


----------



## STEVETERRY (Jul 30, 2015)

Footer said:


> Well aware of that. However, with the number of exceptions out there for to allow for SJ cable I'm not really sure if I see the point anymore. The whip of a fixture and a lead of a soca breakout get the most abuse out of any cabling and yet we are OK with SJ there. Just don't run SJ between the two. I do get the point of the SO everywhere stuff. We spent 30k on cable to ensure we had SO everywhere just a few years ago. We are already in the phase where we are running powercon or powercon-True1 on everything and daisy chaining. Unless there is someone doing it that I'm not aware of, I have only seen those jumpers built out of SJ cable. Both Lex and Whirlwind do SJ as standard on these types of connectors. It might not be right, but it is being done. I put it right up there with the 3 pin DMX thing. Might not be right, but it became industry standard anyway.



The exceptions allowing SJ and derivatives are quite restrictive. The vast majority of cables in the theatre still need to be type S or derivatives

Late breaking news: Note that SJ and derivatives are currently allowed for luminaire supply cords up to 1.0 m (3.3'). There is a proposal in for the 2017 NEC which would increase this length to 2.0 m (6.6'). It has already passed the First Draft phase of the process. Curiously, I wrote that proposal. If allowed, I think it will improve the utility of our systems without a safety compromise.

However, I don't agree that luminaire cords and breakouts "get the most abuse out of any cabling....." They are not subject to crush and slit hazards in the same way that long jumpers in the path of rolling or flying scenery are.

Finally, while some people may not like the Extra Hard Usage requirement, it's currently mandated by the NEC, which means it's the rule with no options for article 520 venues. This is not comparable to the 3-pin vs. 5-pin DMX cable example, where there is no Code involved.

As I've said before, if you want to change the NEC, submit a Public Input with compelling evidence as to why the requirement should be relaxed. Your first opportunity will be for the 2020 NEC. But meanwhile, please don't suggest or imply on this forum that non-NEC-compliant solutions are OK because they are common practice.

ST


----------



## gafftaper (Jul 30, 2015)

Thanks @BillESC I'm liking what I see on the Windsor Website. 150 feet of 12/3 SOOW a few of those boxes and I can build some REALLY nice custom cables that are very high quality and to code.


----------



## JD (Jul 30, 2015)

With the smaller loads, I suspect we will start seeing 16/3 S and SO used. Some venues put a base at 12/3, but it is my understanding that portable cable is load dependent. (Don't remember the thread where this was hashed out, but that was the conclusion.) Most venues didn't expect to be dealing with loads 200 watts and under like we are now.


----------



## BillESC (Jul 31, 2015)

Update . . . 

Ken, the owner of OA Windsor has health issues and production of boxes has stopped. There are a few of his friends that will look into restarting production. I'm trying to get a inventory count and will let you know when I find out.


----------



## Senorfish (Aug 3, 2015)

I like Induelectric power distro gear. They have everything... and built in rugged rubberized boxes that can take years of abuse. Check out their catalogue.... 
http://www.indu-electric.com/catalog/30/



Whirlwind gear is nice.... FOR SOUND.... not so sure that I'm sold on that distribution brick with powercon connectors posted earlier. I just don't see it holding up.


----------



## Wood4321 (Aug 4, 2015)

I agree about the Indu Electric stuff. 
I have been buying it for years, and find it to be top notch.
Their portable distros, as well as cable assemblies are fantastic.


----------



## MikeJ (Aug 12, 2015)

ship said:


> 1900 type quad boxes when I see them are destroyed and not sent back to the company that made them even if marked as to owner when they don't get back to the owner.



I know this is an very old post, but Destroying other peoples property, is not the way to deal with this. It is illegal, and you will probably at some point be charged for the equipment, and if you don't pay, you will be sued and probably loose. Try to be a professional about the situation.


Footer said:


> Well aware of that. However, with the number of exceptions out there for to allow for SJ cable I'm not really sure if I see the point anymore. The whip of a fixture and a lead of a soca breakout get the most abuse out of any cabling and yet we are OK with SJ there. Just don't run SJ between the two. I do get the point of the SO everywhere stuff. We spent 30k on cable to ensure we had SO everywhere just a few years ago. We are already in the phase where we are running powercon or powercon-True1 on everything and daisy chaining. Unless there is someone doing it that I'm not aware of, I have only seen those jumpers built out of SJ cable. Both Lex and Whirlwind do SJ as standard on these types of connectors. It might not be right, but it is being done. I put it right up there with the 3 pin DMX thing. Might not be right, but it became industry standard anyway.



Very true. Most fixtures and extensions these days from manufactures are NOT SO cable. I don't think powercon true one connectors can even fit over so cable, at least they do not appear to be designed for it.
NEC had a lot of gaps in the code, and it is very slow to adapt to modern technologies. Although people will argue with me, and they will be WRONG. NEC IS NOT THE LAW. It's codes are adopted by many jurisdictions, but requirements vary.


----------



## MikeJ (Aug 12, 2015)

STEVETERRY said:


> The exceptions allowing SJ and derivatives are quite restrictive. The vast majority of cables in the theatre still need to be type S or derivatives
> 
> Late breaking news: Note that SJ and derivatives are currently allowed for luminaire supply cords up to 1.0 m (3.3'). There is a proposal in for the 2017 NEC which would increase this length to 2.0 m (6.6'). It has already passed the First Draft phase of the process. Curiously, I wrote that proposal. If allowed, I think it will improve the utility of our systems without a safety compromise.
> 
> ...


Steve, Can you please provide links to ETC's SO powercon products? I think a lot of users here would like to have a reliable source for SO extensions and jumper for all the recent products on the market that use powercon and powercon true1 pass-thru.


----------



## sk8rsdad (Aug 12, 2015)

MikeJ said:


> Can you please provide links to ETC's SO powercon products?


AFAIK, they're not listed on a separate web page. They appear as luminaire accessories in the various ETC Selador fixture datasheets.


----------



## BillConnerFASTC (Aug 12, 2015)

MikeJ said:


> Steve, Can you please provide links to ETC's SO powercon products? I think a lot of users here would like to have a reliable source for SO extensions and jumper for all the recent products on the market that use powercon and powercon true1 pass-thru.



FWIW they list 5 and 10 ft jumpers, and 5 ft to bare, edison. pin, or twist lock in their price list. 6 products.

(I know my name isn't Steve but I happened to have the price list open for another project so toss this in.)


----------



## SteveB (Sep 10, 2015)

Just as interesting side note on this topic:

As I price these rubberized electrical boxes, it seems the 3 suppliers are;

- OA Windsor, potentially out of business.
- Woodhead/Molex
- Leviton.

My pricing via some local dealers;

- Levition, black, standard depth dual duplex, no receptacles, 2 duplex covers - $249 per box ($169 for the box, $40 ea. cover, 2 required)
- Woodhead/Molex, black, standard depth, no receptacles, with 2 duplex covers - $45.05 ea.


----------



## MikeJ (Sep 11, 2015)

STEVETERRY said:


> The exceptions allowing SJ and derivatives are quite restrictive. The vast majority of cables in the theatre still need to be type S or derivatives
> 
> Late breaking news: Note that SJ and derivatives are currently allowed for luminaire supply cords up to 1.0 m (3.3'). There is a proposal in for the 2017 NEC which would increase this length to 2.0 m (6.6'). It has already passed the First Draft phase of the process. Curiously, I wrote that proposal. If allowed, I think it will improve the utility of our systems without a safety compromise.
> 
> ...


I'm going to agree with footer on breakouts and whips getting more abuse than say a 10' extension cable. So having a breakout and a whip using SJ making up say 12', and than putting a 10' SO cable in between is quite silly. Also if you are worried that moving scenery or rolling equipment is going to cut your cable, then you already messed up; don't put your cable there, or use an appropriate protection method like yellow jackets. Using SO cable is not an excuse to be sloppy or run cables in locations that can cause damage.

If you are smashing into a truss or baton with a piece of scenery, than you have a much bigger danger to deal with in training your staff.

The analogy of SJ being like using 3-pin DMX does not hold water though. A better analogy is that SJ cable is like jaywalking. It's illegal most places but, a lot of people do it, it's often perfectly safe, and mostly you won't get in trouble for doing it.

I think what Footer was getting at, was that the codes will eventually change to allow SJ in more situations in the future.

I have not endorsed violation of any codes or laws. I am not trying to contradict the codes. I am not recommending anything; I just posted my observations.


----------



## BillConnerFASTC (Sep 11, 2015)

I wish that people who think a code change is warranted would take the time to submit the change. It's a public process and very easy now, all on line.


----------



## MikeJ (Sep 12, 2015)

Me too.


----------



## Wood4321 (Sep 12, 2015)

Mike, If you feel strongly about it, submit the change yourself! Thats what I believe Bill was getting at.


----------



## Apmccandless (Sep 12, 2015)

I have a question that partially applies to this discussion. I work for a company that provides decor for high end events. We generally operate under NEC 518 and use primarily SJO cable. At most of our events there is a stage with a band on it. We are in a public assembly space but there is a stage in it. According to to NEC 520 because there is a stage all cable used on stage should be SO but would the area not on stage be an "audience area" and require SO or still be a "public assembly space" and still allow SJO?


----------



## Malabaristo (Sep 14, 2015)

Apmccandless said:


> At most of our events there is a stage with a band on it. We are in a public assembly space but there is a stage in it. According to to NEC 520 because there is a stage all cable used on stage should be SO but would the area not on stage be an "audience area" and require SO or still be a "public assembly space" and still allow SJO?



This is covered in 518.2(C). The stage area and "associated audience seating areas" must comply with section 520. There's probably some room for interpretation on exactly where to draw the line between what's associated or not. If you want to make sure you're covered, then arranging the room to provide a clear distinction would be to your advantage.


----------



## RickR (Sep 15, 2015)

I've had versions of this discussion with a guy here who always points out that we may be the only ones that even know about the issue.

So I ask, has anyone ever been called on it by an inspector (mistakes happen), or even had them check?


----------



## MikeJ (Sep 28, 2015)

Wood4321 said:


> Mike, If you feel strongly about it, submit the change yourself! Thats what I believe Bill was getting at.


Nah, I try not to make decisions based on feelings. I like to remain objective.


RickR said:


> I've had versions of this discussion with a guy here who always points out that we may be the only ones that even know about the issue.
> 
> So I ask, has anyone ever been called on it by an inspector (mistakes happen), or even had them check?



I don't know who all these mysterious inspectors are or where they come from. I see Fire Marshals some times, and they just want egress open, electrical panels accessible, fire extinguishers for pyro, and every once in a while fire retardant certs on soft-goods. 

Usually I am the one correcting other peoples much more egregious mistakes (like mounting Male cams as the outputs of a disconnect, or making custom soca that mixes 120 and 208)


----------



## Dionysus (Sep 28, 2015)

MikeJ said:


> Nah, I try not to make decisions based on feelings. I like to remain objective.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That would be ELECTRICAL INSPECTORS. The ones that inspect and approve electrical work and the like. Without pulling electrical permits you may of indeed not had one in your space for a very long time.


----------



## BillConnerFASTC (Sep 28, 2015)

Well, its still a crime even if you don't get caught.


----------



## RickR (Sep 28, 2015)

In theory the Fire Marshals can call you on an electrical question. If anyone gets stuffy they can call an electrical inspector, but the show won't go on. The issue is whether they know/care to look!

I side with "doing the right thing" and it doesn't even cost much in this case.


----------



## jstroming (Sep 30, 2015)

I would like to agree with everyone stating that SJ cable is in extreme widespread use throughout the United States. Many times I have rented from the national lighting and AV rental houses with multiple locations and received 12/3 SJ cable.


----------



## BillConnerFASTC (Sep 30, 2015)

jstroming said:


> I would like to agree with everyone stating that SJ cable is in extreme widespread use throughout the United States. Many times I have rented from the national lighting and AV rental houses with multiple locations and received 12/3 SJ cable.



And people drive above the speed limit in a lot of places. When there is an event - an accident or fire - they'll pay for it. Then we could talk about pyro on stage too. Probably lost of people ignore those rules and regulations.


----------



## jstroming (Sep 30, 2015)

BillConnerASTC said:


> And people drive above the speed limit in a lot of places. When there is an event - an accident or fire - they'll pay for it. Then we could talk about pyro on stage too. Probably lost of people ignore those rules and regulations.



Comparing the use of Pyro to running an SJ cable is a ridiculous comparison.


----------



## BillConnerFASTC (Sep 30, 2015)

jstroming said:


> Comparing the use of Pyro to running an SJ cable is a ridiculous comparison.


Perhaps but doing either contrary to the legislation regulating those activities is a crime and is simply wrong. In that regard, they are the same.


----------



## techieman33 (Sep 30, 2015)

BillConnerASTC said:


> Perhaps but doing either contrary to the legislation regulating those activities is a crime and is simply wrong. In that regard, they are the same.



In the same sense that driving 5mph over the speed limit and driving drunk are both crimes. The first isn't likely to ever harm anyone. The 2nd leaves you with a decent chance of causing great harm to yourself and others.


----------



## Catwalker (Sep 30, 2015)

I would like to ask one thing about this whole SO thing:

Is there an electrical reason why we use SO cable? Or is it simply because the heavier insulation protects it better from smashing, crushing, or slicing?

Second, SO is a PITA to strip. Is there an effective tool for doing that, other than my pocketknife?


----------



## BillConnerFASTC (Sep 30, 2015)

Yes there is a tool. An adjustable depth blade and saddle. Set it on and spin it around the so. I've maintained a lot of cable for several years.


----------



## techieman33 (Sep 30, 2015)

Catwalker said:


> I would like to ask one thing about this whole SO thing:
> 
> Is there an electrical reason why we use SO cable? Or is it simply because the heavier insulation protects it better from smashing, crushing, or slicing?
> 
> Second, SO is a PITA to strip. Is there an effective tool for doing that, other than my pocketknife?



No electrical reasons, just the heavier insulation.


----------



## derekleffew (Oct 1, 2015)

Catwalker said:


> Or is it simply because the heavier insulation protects it better from smashing, crushing, or slicing?


Exactly. Cords are subject to great abuse on a stage, hence the "extra hard usage" requirement.


Catwalker said:


> Is there an effective tool for doing that, other than my pocketknife?


http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0000WU49A/?tag=controlbooth-20 


I could swear they used to be about $10. Good thing I don't need another one.

BTW, our resident wiring expert. @ship, doesn't like these--too easy to nick the inner conductor insulation. 

ship said:


> First concept is the stripper, is it cutting or ripping away. How easily does it adjust for various thicknesses of jackets and conductors? How properly adjusted is it for what you are cutting? Is it nicking the insulation on inner conductors or nicking copper to conductors? Why bother?
> 
> Nick the inner conductors to an outer jacket by way of utility knife stripping it or automatic cable stripper and once that cable gets some use and or tension from pulling and that little nick is the stress pint that turns into a cut. That cut than turns into something that just needs moisture to turn into a short. I don’t accept automatic cable strippers other than for ethernet or BNC cable. And in those cases I’m very much adjusting to make sure the stripper is set properly.
> 
> Pinch pull method with dikes and a good pair of wire strippers where the jaws surround the conductor not just come together at the conductor is what I recommend. First the dikes in the pinch/pull technique described earlier ensures that the blades are nowhere near the inner conductors or at least on theormoplastic or Euro cable, just nicking the outer conductor in no worse a way than the other techniques. The wire strippers by way of control of them and what the heck use does automatic wire strippers for individual conductors have anyway?



In practice, I've found it works well for me. But attention must be paid. Mine seems to drift out of adjustment after frequent use; not cutting deep enough at least, rather than too deep.

I've also used the same tool to strip that I use to cut the cable, but that requires even more attention and experience.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00093GCK0/?tag=controlbooth-20


----------



## RickR (Oct 1, 2015)

I think of there is an electrical reason:
Damaged insulation causes shorts, breaks and other types of failures!


----------

