# First aid facilities



## Ric (Aug 19, 2009)

Hi All,
I've been looking into first aid facilities and was trying to find out what other venues have in place.
At our 477 seat Community Theatre here we have 2 portable first aid kits. One for Backstage and one for Front of House.
This has seemed sufficient, so far, but I do wonder if we are on par with other venues of similar size. I've not yet been able to locate OH&S guidelines/legislation that specifies a number; like a lot of things in OH&S its a bit vague.

I am aware that larger venues have a first aid room, but am not sure at what size of audience/cast & crew numbers this should come into affect.

My questions if you care to answer
What capacity venue do you work at, and what first aid facilities do you have?
Specifically if you have a first aid room, what capacity venue is it?

Thanks in advance,
Ric


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## tjrobb (Aug 19, 2009)

I'm at a 525 seat community theatre (soon to be more!), and we have one kit FOH, one backstage, one downstairs for dressing rooms and the green room. We also have a random box of "parts" for first aid backstage by the kit.

We are also lucky to have an AED in the FOH area for the BIG emergencies. The AED is designed for use either by trained personnel or the general public (the crazy thing talks to you...).


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## cprted (Aug 19, 2009)

The problem with OH&S regs (at least in BC) is they only deal with first aid requirements based on the number of employees and ignore the pressence of the general public.

We're a 750-seat road house. We have Level 1 kits in the loading bay and the booth, and Level 2 kits in the Lobby and the TD's office.


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## Ric (Aug 19, 2009)

The glossary is a wonderful thing (well done to all who contribute!) 
I had to look up AED to discover what it was (Automated External Defibrillator)

Thanks for your reply.


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## kiwitechgirl (Aug 20, 2009)

We have two spaces - a 300-seat and a 125-seat. There is a first aid kit backstage in each space, one in the green room (which is shared) and there is a portable kit at the stage manager's desk in the bigger space but not the smaller one. But the thing I use most often is the cold packs which are kept in the freezer in the SM's kitchen backstage in the 300-seat house....


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## Ric (Aug 20, 2009)

cprted said:


> The problem with OH&S regs (at least in BC) is they only deal with first aid requirements based on the number of employees and ignore the pressence of the general public.


Thats what I have found as well. While it's not been an issue so far, I am concerned that we don't have a 'First Aid Room' for incidents with the general public.


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## cprted (Aug 20, 2009)

Ric said:


> Thats what I have found as well. While it's not been an issue so far, I am concerned that we don't have a 'First Aid Room' for incidents with the general public.


The specific purposes of a first aid room are to allow employees a place for rest and recovery from minor injuries (no further medical attention required) prior to returning to work and a place to conduct follow-up wound care and the like. These scenarios don't really apply to members of the public. If a patron gets injured or develops a medical condition that in anyway requires more than basic care, they're going to the hospital in an ambulance (or being driven there by family/friend). So long as you have a full compliment of supplies, they're in good condition, and you have appropriate training, I can't see the fact that your supplies are stored in a cabinet instead of a dedicated room ever being an issue. 

If you're concerned about liability, I would suggest you consult with your insurance provider. They'll tell you exactly what supplies they want you to have and what level of training.


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## mstaylor (Aug 20, 2009)

An AED is a VERY good thing to have in your lobby. If you get them, and they are expensive, get one or two employees trained on it. I've used them twice so far. Saved one, lost one but they are good to have.


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## tjrobb (Aug 20, 2009)

We were lucky enough to have our AED donated from the Auxiliary of the local hospital. Perhaps others on here could talk to a similar group?


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## Van (Aug 20, 2009)

Ric,
Check ready.gov and the American Red Cross. Both places have excellent resources for tips on stocking and maintaining an adequate First aid kit.

I forgot to look at your location, in the states there are several national companies that specialize in maintaining first aid kits for public and work facilities. the first that comes to mind is a company called CO2 Checking with them might help you devise a good First aid strategy.


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## NickVon (Sep 4, 2009)

in our 300 seat theatre we have 3 Major First Aid Kits

One Backstage
One in the Booth (for Lobby) as the It's very close by.
One in the Greenroom
One Misc First Aid kits, refills on icepacks, and over counter drugs like Advil/Asprin, etc.

It was recommended by the Health Services deparment on campus that we look to get an AED. When i posed the question of how i'm to afford a 5000 dollar peice of medical equipment, and having no ties to any kinda of hostpital or health proffesional the "health services" became silent. Still looking into a grant from one of the local hospitals to perhaps donate one however.


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## Soxred93 (Sep 4, 2009)

NickVon said:


> It was recommended by the Health Services deparment on campus that we look to get an AED. When i posed the question of how i'm to afford a 5000 dollar peice of medical equipment, and having no ties to any kinda of hostpital or health proffesional the "health services" became silent. Still looking into a grant from one of the local hospitals to perhaps donate one however.



At our school, we only have 1 AED for the entire school. Luckily, it's a school with only one major floor, so you can run down and back within 30 seconds. It's also conveniently located right in the auditorium lobby (which is really in the middle of the school), so we don't have that problem. 

Most schools have at least one AED in the building, so it shouldn't be too hard for a high school. However, if the theater is a separate building entirely, it will be a little difficult. 

I have the advantage of being lifeguard, first aid, CPR, and AED trained, so if there's a medical emergency, I can at least provide care until the EMS arrives.


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## chris325 (Sep 4, 2009)

In a 650 seat auditorium, we've got 3: one in the stage manager's desk, one in the set shop, and one in the booth. Those get pretty regular use. As for an AED, the school has one, but it's a distance from the auditorium, which isn't helpful in an emergency. Ice packs, as mentioned by several, would have been helpful in several incidents, but the only place to store them is in the booth, which is difficult to get to from backstage during a show. So far, all we've had to deal with was an asthma attack (no ambulance required) and a few other smaller things, along with a broken leg by a cast member a while back. (The phrase "Break a leg" is not used anymore in our theatre program.)


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## jwl868 (Sep 5, 2009)

chris325 said:


> ...along with a broken leg by a cast member a while back. (The phrase "Break a leg" is not used anymore in our theatre program.)



Considering your track record, you should probably ask the dancers to stop saying "Merde", too. 


Joe


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## lieperjp (Sep 5, 2009)

We have a first aid kit in the green room for emergencies and the school has two AEDs nearby (both donated by the local hospital.) We're lucky since the majority of our school is training to be teachers, and one of the requirements for a teaching degree is basic First Aid Certification and CPR/AED training, which happens in the first year of school. Get it! It doesn't take too long and it's not to expensive.

We do, IMHO, need a better and another first aid kit, though.


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## mixmaster (Sep 5, 2009)

Both venues (300+ and 800) have small kits in the booth and on deck, AED in the building, Campus nurse's office a few minutes walk away. Hospital ER is 5 minute drive from campus. I'm certifed in CPR AED and used to be an EMT. For our biggest events , like graduation, we have the ambulance crew from the hospital man a first aid station. 

Having said that, how well are all of us trained? It does little good to have a fully stocked first aid kit, if no one knows how to use the supplies or if everyone on the crew faints at the sight of blood. Does EVERYONE on your crew know where the first aid kit and closest fire extingisher is? When was the last time anyone actually took stock of the first aid kit. 3AO and Tylenol both have expiration dates!


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## Soxred93 (Sep 5, 2009)

At one of my venues, our first aid is regularly checked and stocked. It's also in a school, so there's an AED, health office, and everything nearby. At the other... well... I can't even get a band-aid out of it because it's not stocked. I've told the owner, but he hasn't done anything. I do think it's essential that at least one person is first-aid certified and is able to help in an emergency. If there's no health services nearby, it's also crucial that someone's CPR and AED certified.


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## thatactorguy (Sep 7, 2009)

Goodness, all of these replies talking about their multi-hundred seat venues, and here I come with my 138 seat place...

One in the booth, one in the kitchen area (which is right next to the Greenroom), and two backstage: SL & SR.

Fortunately, we have several in the medical field who regularly see our shows and/or are in said productions. Gives one a good feeling knowing help is just a few feet away at all times...


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## MNicolai (May 14, 2011)

*First Aid Kits*

[Mod note: This post moved here from another location.]

Tonight we had a number of medical problems in our theatre. One dancer vomitted three times before she arrived at the venue but still wanted to dance. Another dancer became nauseous during the night and spent most of Act II in a backstage hallway with her head on the floor and her legs up the wall. A third dancer pulled a muscle in her thigh during one of the last numbers. Then we also had an audience member who got a bloody nose during the performance and was rushed to the bathroom with blood gushing onto their shirt.

At least tonight we didn't have to call an ambulance like we did last fall when an audience member tripped coming in the doorway and caught her head on the push-bar of a door and then was quickly escorted to the bathroom will gushing blood from her head-wound.

As is, we have a few first aid kits scattered around; one in the shop, one in the box office, and another in our black box theatre's control room, but with night's like tonight we need to become better prepared to cover the following areas of our facility:

-150 Seat Theatre + Ctrl Room
-755 Seat Theatre + Ctrl Room
-Scene Shop
-Rehearsal Hall
-(2) Dressing Rooms
-Lobby/Box Office

Where in your theatres do you have first aid kits located and which types of wounds are each of them capable of mending?


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## metti (May 14, 2011)

*Re: First Aid Kits*

In most of the theatres I have worked, each shop has one poorly-equipped/running-out-of-supplies kit. Then each wing usually has one with band-aids, other small supplies, and heaps of ibuprofen. Often the SM has a decently equipped one with their other supplies as well. Since getting my EMT cert last year I have always carried a pretty substantial kit in one of my tool boxes and I have had pretty frequent cause to use it, though (thankfully) not the airways or any of the other tools for more life-threatening illness and trauma. The key with first aid kits is to actually keep them stocked to their listed contents at all times and to have the supplies that enable venue staff to practice to their certification level and no further than that. I have seen tons of kits that have stuff like a scalpel in them but if no one has received training on how to use it for in-protocol first-response-treatment than it is just taking up space and distracting from the important tools in an actual emergency. Whichever personnel are first aid/CPR/AED/etc certified should pull out the books that they were given during their certification classes and each kits should have ample quantities of all of the items the book lists. I can probably dig up an actual list but in general it will probably look something like this for the average non FR/EMT care providers:
-Lots of ibuprofen 
-Lots of acetaminophen
-Diphenhydramine in one kit that is accessible only to qualified personnel
-Buffered aspirin
-Single use saline eye rinse
-Canned/bottled saline wound wash
-Gauze in a few different sizes
-Band-aids in a few different sizes
-Transpore/fabric medical tape
-Triangle bandages w/ safety pins
-Burn cream w/ low concentration lidocaine
-Triple antibiotic ointment
-Hydrocortisone cream
-Fine forceps/splinter removal kit
-Ace wraps in a few sizes
-Gauze roles in a few sizes
-EMT shears/bandage scissors
-Instant cold packs
-Oral rehydration salts
-Glucose paste or packages of high-sugar-content energy goo like runners use
-Lots of disposable bio-hazard bags (the red zip-lock ones)
-Laerdal CPR mask
-Nitrile gloves (not latex)
-Alcohol prep swabs
-Hand sanitizer
-Moleskins (squares for cutting)
-Digital thermometer with individually sealed covers
-Antacids
-Patent assessment forms/supplies sign out sheet
-Complete list of kit contents with quantities
-Really careful organization of contents by type of emergency (eg minor trauma, major trauma, nausea, etc)


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## DuckJordan (May 14, 2011)

*Re: First Aid Kits*

Before this gets too far I'd like to point out it is extremely Illegal to issue medication to anyone (including Tylenol or ibuprofen) without a medical certification. Even if its asked for by the person. The most you can do as far as first aid to anyone would be a bandage and cold pack, and of course ambulance call. Defibs are a weird scenario. They put them all over the place but almost no one knows how to use them. Even though there are directions on the case, by the time someone read them to do the job its likely too late. 

That said we just stock Band aids and a few Ice packs. Anything else they need to have or we call the ambulance.

I know its all meant in good faith but a lawyer will sue even if the person you help doesn't want to press charges. So keep in mind, medicate at your own risk.


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## metti (May 14, 2011)

*Re: First Aid Kits*


DuckJordan said:


> Before this gets too far I'd like to point out it is extremely Illegal to issue medication to anyone (including Tylenol or ibuprofen) without a medical certification.


 
Define medical certification. You are absolutely correct that pre-hospital care is not totally straight forward from a legal perspective. A couple points though:
-Issuing medication and making medication available are substantively different things. Anyone can legally purchase a bottle of ibuprofen and legally allow someone to use a couple (unless that person is a minor, in which case things get sticky again) if the recipient want to. As long as you are not issuing the medicine under the pretense of it being official medical care it is completely legal and you (the provider) are not incurring any liability.
-It is completely illegal to use an AED (defib) under any circumstances if you (the operator) has not been certified to use it. This is a few our long class that is frequently offered in conjunction with first aid/CPR classes. Publicly accessible AEDs tend to offer voice prompts to the care provider and the certification is actually pretty useless but you still can't use one if you don't have it. I think you would be surprised how many people have ended up with them at this point, though.
-In general, the most straight forward way to understand the law is to think of it like this: Practice up to but not beyond your level of certification/ability (whichever is lesser). As an EMT I am legally required to render care up to the level of skills that I have been certified for and it is illegal for me to practice first-response medical care beyond this level. The exact same thing is true of anyone who has taken the 8 hour first-aid/CPR class through work or school although the level of skills for which we are certified are obviously pretty different. As long as you follow this rule and get patient consent before doing anything (unless they are non responsive, an unaccompanied minor, or functioning at a level below A&Ox3 in which case consent is assumed) you are protected under the good Samaritan laws and you legal precedent can demonstrate for us that this is exceptionally good legal protection for you, the first responder.


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## MarshallPope (May 14, 2011)

*Re: First Aid Kits*

As a side note - Does anyone know how long CPR/AED certification lasts? I have no idea where my paperwork went...

As far as first aid kits go, IIRC, my school has 4 - one backstage in each of the two theatres, the shop, and the box office. They are the basic Johnson & Johnson plastic all-in-one boxes. In addition to that, whenever I SM/ASM, I always make sure to carry a handful of band-aids and Extra Strength Tylenol just to keep from having to break out the first aid kit and to be able to respond more quickly if someone has a minor emergency.


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## MNicolai (May 14, 2011)

*Re: First Aid Kits*

That's a little broad of a judgement on first aid. With Good Samaritan laws, typically if you act in a rational manner within your level of training, you cannot be held legally liable for your response to the situation.

In our case, it's a moot point because we're a school district so there isn't any kind of medication in any first aid kit in the building, but should someone ill need assistance getting their inhaler or a medication that's been prescribed to them, no one's going to get into any trouble for helping them.

We're lucky though in that the hospital is just next door. Nearest ambulance would be dispatched from a couple of minutes away, but most night's we have a custodian staffing our facility who doubles as a firefighter. In the past we've had to call 911 and he's sprinted from the other end of the building to the scene and was able to to administer first aid until the EMT's arrived.

As a general rule, everyone on front of house, management, and even some technical staff are required to have first aid, CPR, and AED training. If someone cuts their finger off in the shop or falls off of the front of the stage into the orchestra pit, I'm not going to sit around on my hands for fear of being sued; I'm going to have someone call 911 while I work within the scope of my training, and then once a dispatcher is on the phone they'll be able to give instruction to the person administering first aid while the EMT's arrive, at which point someone will be sent to the front door to meet them so that they can as quickly as possible be pointed in the direction of the victim.

I'm not saying go ahead and perform battlefield surgery while you wait for the EMT's, but there are situations where someone on site will have to be capable of handling a situation for anywhere between 5 and 15 minutes (on average) given the supplies laid out in front of them.

Two months ago there was a guy in Minnesota who had a heart attack just outside of the grocery store of a town without a hospital or ambulance. It took a line of volunteers/rescuers 96 minutes of CPR to keep the man alive before EMT's were able to arrive via helicopter. The man lived, but only because there were 20 people standing around capable of performing CPR who took turns while waiting for help.

Because you can't predict what sort of life or death situations might be presented before you and when they might happen, I'd like to be prepared with more than just band aids and ice packs instead of living in fear that ever having to administer anything else would get me or one of our staff members in legal hot water.


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## zmb (May 14, 2011)

*Re: First Aid Kits*


MarshallPope said:


> As a side note - Does anyone know how long CPR/AED certification lasts? I have no idea where my paperwork went...


 
I think it is good for two years, speaking of which, my is expired. The CPR training always seems to be changing too.

And something else to remember for the purchased, fully-stocked first aid kits, remember to restock band aids for small cuts and scrapes. There's usually not enough in the kit to begin with


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## metti (May 14, 2011)

*Re: First Aid Kits*


MNicolai said:


> That's a little broad of a judgement on first aid. With Good Samaritan laws, typically if you act in a rational manner within your level of training, you cannot be held legally liable for your response to the situation.



Just to clarify, the law is that you have to act in a rational and COMPETENT manner within your level of training. If you provide care that you were trained to provide but since getting certified you forgot half of it (as many people do) and provide the care wrong you can most certainly be held liable. We covered the legal aspects of first-response during my EMT training at length and, while my comments only reflect the legal situation in MA, it is my understanding that most states have similar arrangements.


MNicolai said:


> Giving someone something for a headache could get you into trouble, but if someone's going to anaphylactic shock and their EpiPen isn't accessible but someone else has one, no one's going to get in any trouble for giving them that dose.



To repeat my earlier comment, providing access to over-the-counter medications to an adult is NOT illegal and CANNOT get you into trouble. Regarding the EpiPen, epinephrine is a prescription medication and using someones EpiPen on a different individual constitutes felony narcotics distribution. I am not kidding on this, this is the same as using giving someone any of your prescription meds and it is incredibly illegal. Beyond that, if the person who's EpiPen you used goes into anaphylactic shock before getting a new EpiPen issued, you could and probably would be held liable for their no longer having one. Beyond that, it is completely illegal to even help someone use their own EpiPen unless you are their parent (in the case of minors) or you have received training and certification in anaphylactic emergency management (part of EMT training or available separately for people who are often around those with severe allergies).


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## MNicolai (May 14, 2011)

*Re: First Aid Kits*


metti said:


> To repeat my earlier comment, providing access to over-the-counter medications to an adult is NOT illegal and CANNOT get you into trouble. Regarding the EpiPen, epinephrine is a prescription medication and using someones EpiPen on a different individual constitutes felony narcotics distribution.



Whoa. That seems like a pretty big detail that was not included in my first aid training.


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## metti (May 14, 2011)

*Re: First Aid Kits*


zmb said:


> remember to restock band aids for small cuts and scrapes. There's usually not enough in the kit to begin with


 
+10000000
You will find that ordering generic supplies from a decent online first-aid supplier gets you much cheaper and often higher quality stuff than CVS, etc can offer. For my rather substantial personal first aid kit, I have a certain number of each item that I keep in the kit itself and then I keep additional boxes of the supplies in my closet at home. As soon as I use anything from the kit I restock it to it's full inventory. If I was responsible for a venue I would probably keep larger quantities of items in one place and restock individual kits from that cache.


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## metti (May 14, 2011)

*Re: First Aid Kits*


MNicolai said:


> Whoa. That seems like a pretty big detail that was not included in my first aid training.


 
There is so much to cram into first aid training that, unfortunately, there is never nearly enough time to cover everything that participants should know. Often medico-legal issues end up taking back seat to learning how to actually do stuff. I think this is probably a good thing since I would rather competent first-responders then people who understand the law but can't actually help anyone in an emergency. EMT and other more advanced training paths include a significant amount of additional coverage of legal issues as well as topics like emergency management and handling the psychological/emotional implications of emergency situations on patients, bystanders, and the responder. If anyone has an extra 200 or so unscheduled hours in their schedule I can't recommend the training highly enough.


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## chausman (May 14, 2011)

*Re: First Aid Kits*

While people are talking about where AEDs are located, my school which was built three years ago, had one for a while in the commons, the closest to the center of the school as they could get, and another case for one. They have these white cases they sit in that have an alarm, i don't know what the alarm is hooked up to, but it's there, one is used, one isnt. Earlier this year, they go another AED to fill the case just inside the doors by the football fields for events that happen at our school.

Sent from my iPad.


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## metti (May 14, 2011)

*Re: First Aid Kits*


chausman said:


> They have these white cases they sit in that have an alarm, i don't know what the alarm is hooked up to, .



The alarms on AED wall boxes aren't hooked up to anything beyond the box itself. The boxes have a built in speaker that is triggered when the door is opened without turning a key to deactivate the alarm first. It is just there to discourage theft since AEDs are pretty expensive. It also alerts bystanders that there is something emergency-ish going on and they should maybe run and get help or call 911.


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## chausman (May 14, 2011)

*Re: First Aid Kits*


metti said:


> The alarms on AED wall boxes aren't hooked up to anything beyond the box itself. The boxes have a built in speaker that is triggered when the door is opened without turning a key to deactivate the alarm first. It is just there to discourage theft since AEDs are pretty expensive. It also alerts bystanders that there is something emergency-ish going on and they should maybe run and get help or call 911.


 
I didn't think there would be much for them to do, a student openin a box on the wall is not a good reason for an ambulance to show up at a school!


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## jglodeklights (May 14, 2011)

*Re: First Aid Kits*

As a note on providing OTC medications, all medicine should be in INDIVIDUALLY wrapped doses with FDA approved packaging (from the supplier) so that A. you can be sure of the expiration date of a dose, B. be sure of the particular medicine in the package, and C. reduce the risk of contamination of the dose with another medicine. 

On CPR, I believe it was two years between certifications (or was that life guarding, and CPR was 3 or 4?). The following is not meant to be taken as legal or medical advice, but only put out here my personal feelings. As someone who has a conscience and has received CPR training in the past, I would perform CPR regardless of the fact that I no longer have my certification (I do tend to read up on the current standards), provided there was no one else there able or willing to perform it. By definition, CPR is a form of resuscitation, meaning the person it is to be performed on is medically considered dead. If I see no Do Not Resuscitate bracelet/tattoo/other identification of such, I would feel morally obligated to perform it if I knew the person's heart had stopped. That said, one of the main factors in performing it, were I to perform it, would be the proximity of more qualified care.


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## DuckJordan (May 14, 2011)

The way we were taught if we we're not on duty when something as far as epi pen goes. is you place it in their hand have use their hand to issue the dose of epi, I had to go through the training for a local camp and this is what the full time emergency response team told us to do.

The reason for my blanket statement of do not issue medication is most of the people who frequent these boards are minors and if they were to issue even Tylenol at least at the district I went to, you were given a minimum of a month suspension from school. There was no kind of tolerance what-so-ever for it.

So my policy is always if they don't have it, then you shouldn't give them it. But +1 on Metti's Epi pen deal. Its way too huge of risk and even epi pens need specific ways of injection.


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## metti (May 14, 2011)

*Re: First Aid Kits*


jglodeklights said:


> As a note on providing OTC medications, all medicine should be in INDIVIDUALLY wrapped doses with FDA approved packaging (from the supplier)



You are absolutely correct. Boxes of individual dose packs of generics (ibuprofen, etc) are actually cheaper than big bottles from CVS anyway and are the only acceptable thing to use for a first aid kit.


jglodeklights said:


> On CPR, I believe it was two years between certifications (or was that life guarding, and CPR was 3 or 4?).



CPR certifications last for 2 years.


jglodeklights said:


> The following is not meant to be taken as legal or medical advice, but only put out here my personal feelings. As someone who has a conscience and has received CPR training in the past, I would perform CPR regardless of the fact that I no longer have my certification (I do tend to read up on the current standards), provided there was no one else there able or willing to perform it. By definition, CPR is a form of resuscitation, meaning the person it is to be performed on is medically considered dead. If I see no Do Not Resuscitate bracelet/tattoo/other identification of such, I would feel morally obligated to perform it if I knew the person's heart had stopped. That said, one of the main factors in performing it, were I to perform it, would be the proximity of more qualified care.



I think most people tend to subscribe to this way-of-operating, myself included. While I keep my certs current, if they eventually lapsed I would definitely be willing to do what it takes to save someones life even if legally I'm not supposed to within reason. I go back and forth on the EpiPen thing since it is a pretty significant moral dilemma but CPR is different than that. As long as the person does not have a visible DNR, I don't think there has ever been an attempt to prosecute someone for correctly performing CPR in a medical emergency for which it is indicated. Most people don't even carry their cert card and when the paramedics come they aren't going to card the bystanders who were providing CPR anyway.


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## avkid (May 14, 2011)

Since I started contracting my own crews I have been carrying a prepackaged Johnson & Johnson first aid kit.


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## Footer (May 14, 2011)

DuckJordan said:


> Before this gets too far I'd like to point out it is extremely Illegal to issue medication to anyone (including Tylenol or ibuprofen) without a medical certification. Even if its asked for by the person. The most you can do as far as first aid to anyone would be a bandage and cold pack, and of course ambulance call. Defibs are a weird scenario. They put them all over the place but almost no one knows how to use them. Even though there are directions on the case, by the time someone read them to do the job its likely too late.
> 
> That said we just stock Band aids and a few Ice packs. Anything else they need to have or we call the ambulance.
> 
> I know its all meant in good faith but a lawyer will sue even if the person you help doesn't want to press charges. So keep in mind, medicate at your own risk.


 
You can give anyone over the counter meds, you just can't shove them down their throats. 

...... Something involving tapatalk.......


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## rphilip (May 14, 2011)

*Re: First Aid Kits*


DuckJordan said:


> Defibs are a weird scenario. They put them all over the place but almost no one knows how to use them. Even though there are directions on the case, by the time someone read them to do the job its likely too late.



In my experience laws relating to AED's vary state to state. I know that in Washington any one may use an AED be be protected by Good Samaritan Laws. (At least this was true in '08). In Michigan on the other hand you are only protected by the Good Samaritan Law if you have had AED certification training. In other words check too see what your local rules are.

I'll also agree with jglodeklights and metti, while my CPR/First aid cert has lapsed (I need to get that fixed) I would still provide care to the best of my ability if it were needed. 

Philip


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## ScottT (May 14, 2011)

*Re: First Aid Kits*

metti I take issue with a few things you have said...


metti said:


> It is completely illegal to use an AED (defib) under any circumstances if you (the operator) has not been certified to use it.



This is completely false. It depends on the state that you are located in.
For example:
In Virginia, in 2005/2006 the AED *filing and training requirements* were repealed. In that same time period, Maryland created requirements so that every high school and school-sponsored athletic events *must* have an AED available. In 2010 Maryland created new laws that guarantee protections to people (who are not trained) who, in “good faith” use an AED when working to save someone from sudden cardiac arrest.

Source: State Laws on Cardiac Arrest & Defibrillators



metti said:


> In general, the most straight forward way to understand the law is to think of it like this: Practice up to but not beyond your level of certification/ability (whichever is lesser). As an EMT I am legally required to render care up to the level of skills that I have been certified for and it is illegal for me to practice first-response medical care beyond this level. The exact same thing is true of anyone who has taken the 8 hour first-aid/CPR class through work or school although the level of skills for which we are certified are obviously pretty different. As long as you follow this rule and get patient consent before doing anything (unless they are non responsive, an unaccompanied minor, or functioning at a level below A&Ox3 in which case consent is assumed) you are protected under the good Samaritan laws and you legal precedent can demonstrate for us that this is exceptionally good legal protection for you, the first responder.



metti I'm sure that you know this, but for everyone else *if your certification was issued by state X, you cannot use your training in state Y*. The exception to this is nationally recognized certifications (American Red Cross). The trick to that though is if you have an ARC certification and go to Canada, you cannot use your training, because they have different regulations.



MarshallPope said:


> As a side note - Does anyone know how long CPR/AED certification lasts? I have no idea where my paperwork went...


 
The Professional American Red Cross First Aid/AED certification is valid for 3 years. The CPR is valid for 1 year. I'm not sure about the others *BUT* you should check with your state, as it can vary.


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## metti (May 14, 2011)

*Re: First Aid Kits*


ScottT said:


> This is completely false. It depends on the state that you are located in.
> For example:
> In Virginia, in 2005/2006 the AED *filing and training requirements* were repealed. In that same time period, Maryland created requirements so that every high school and school-sponsored athletic events *must* have an AED available. In 2010 Maryland created new laws that guarantee protections to people (who are not trained) who, in “good faith” use an AED when working to save someone from sudden cardiac arrest.



Fair enough. My legal info is mostly applicable to MA, NH, and NY which are the three states in which I have received training. Scott is completely right that you should check your state's laws; while many states have similar setups there is some pretty significant variation.


ScottT said:


> I'm sure that you know this, but for everyone else *if your certification was issued by state X, you cannot use your training in state Y*. The exception to this is nationally recognized certifications (American Red Cross). The trick to that though is if you have an ARC certification and go to Canada, you cannot use your training, because they have different regulations.



Also an excellent point. Since I have a NREMT certification in addition to my MA DOT EMT-B cert I can practice in any state as long as I practice within that states EMT treatment protocols. Obviously I have not memorized treatment protocols for every state so I have to be a little bit careful. The one caveat to my agreement with your statement that I would offer is that in general good Samaritan laws are such that one could still render care in a state in which they are not certified and, as long as they do so within that states legal guidelines, it is highly unlikely that there would be any legal repercussions unless they administered the care incorrectly.


ScottT said:


> The Professional American Red Cross First Aid/AED certification is valid for 3 years. The CPR is valid for 1 year.



This is incorrect. From the American Red Cross website, "All First Aid, CPR and AED training carry 2-year certification."


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## ScottT (May 14, 2011)

*Re: First Aid Kits*


metti said:


> This is incorrect. From the American Red Cross website, "All First Aid, CPR and AED training carry 2-year certification."


 
The *professional* Lifeguarding/First Aid/AED certification is valid for 3 years, the professional CPR is valid for 1. I'm staring at both of mine... But you are correct, the other "non-professional" certifications are valid for 2 years.


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## metti (May 14, 2011)

ScottT said:


> The *professional* Lifeguarding/First Aid/AED certification is valid for 3 years, the professional CPR is valid for 1. I'm staring at both of mine... But you are correct, the other "non-professional" certifications are valid for 2 years.


 
Actually we are both half-correct. CPR for the professional first responder as well as all other ARC medical certs are 2 year certifications. I just did a little googling and it turns out that the expiration periods used to be what you have but the recently changed to a uniform 2 year system.


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## ScottT (May 14, 2011)

metti said:


> Actually we are both half-correct. CPR for the professional first responder as well as all other ARC medical certs are 2 year certifications. I just did a little googling and it turns out that the expiration periods used to be what you have but the recently changed to a uniform 2 year system.



Wowzers. That is quite the change!

Going a bit OT here, but still relevant...
With the 1 year certification for CPR, you obviously you would have to renew the certification every year which in turn means you would either challenge the test (because you had been practicing your skills) or you would take the class again (because you hadn't been using your skills). I guess what I'm getting at is *you need to practice your skills!* Just because you have the certification doesn't mean you will be able to remember everything during an emergency situation. Yes, having prior emergency experience will help, but your mind might just go blank.

I would suggest to everyone who has some sort of CPR, First Aid, AED, First Responder, any other medical certification to head on down to your local volunteer rescue squad and ask if they will look at your CPR technique and help you go over the material. Most of the time, they will be glad to help you out and may even tell you some war stories. Obviously you should read through your training book first, but there is no substitute for practice, practice, practice!

mettiI'm jealous that you have your EMT-B, I'm hoping to get mine this fall!


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## cprted (May 15, 2011)

When you're talking regs, certifications and scope of practice, the big rule is check your local laws. They vary from state to state and province to province. OTC meds can be a tricky one. As a first aider, you can't administer any med, but at some levels you can provide them for the patient to take themselves. Here, if I'm working on an ambulance I can't give OTC meds (except ASA, but that is a different situation) but if I'm working on a construction site as the FA Attendant, I can. Like I said, check your local laws. 

In Canada, CPR certifications don't actually expire, but "annual retraining is recommended." As a paramedic, I have to take "CPR C+AED for Health Care Providers" every year no matter how many times I've done CPR in the field. Good times.

AEDs and SAEDs are especially fantastic because you don't need training to operate them. While the course is good to take, if you can follow the four step cartoon and the voice prompts, you might just save someone's life.

I agree with ScottT 100%. The more you practice your skills, the calmer you'll be when it hits the fan.


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## Anonymous067 (May 15, 2011)

Regarding CPR/LG/FA training...(being an instructor trainer myself...)

CPR-2 years for Red Cross and American Heart
Lifeguarding-3 years, but changing this fall (not sure to what yet, if anything)
Oxygen is currently 1 year.

I think the other rumors have been cleared up, that Duck started earlier.

Thanks!


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## DuckJordan (May 15, 2011)

Anonymous067 said:


> Regarding CPR/LG/FA training...(being an instructor trainer myself...)
> 
> CPR-2 years for Red Cross and American Heart
> Lifeguarding-3 years, but changing this fall (not sure to what yet, if anything)
> ...


 

First off, I don't appreciate people saying I started rumors. These are not rumors its what the laws are in my area. Leagly if you are not a paramedic that is on duty you are not allowed to do anything other than basic first aid.

This includes Hands only CPR, putting pressure on a bleeding wound, along with a few others. Medication cannot be given period. In the city of sioux falls (i'm not sure if its state wide) if you give someone any kind of OTC medication you can be charged with distributing a controlled substance. Unless they have it on their persons you could get in big trouble.

I didn't start any rumors what-so-ever and do not appreciate someone saying that I have.


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## metti (May 16, 2011)

DuckJordan, while I can't speak to your jurisdiction, if it is anything like every other state that I know of, there is a big difference between "administering medication" and "giving someone some ibuprofen". Let me provide an illustrative scenario:

Patient: Matthew, my head really hurts.
Me: Take 400mg of Ibuprofen. Here is a sealed dose pack.
^This is me administering OTC medication. This is not legal anywhere unless I am a paramedic or doctor.

Patient: Matthew, my head really hurts.
Me: Ibuprofen is good for headaches and the package indicates that someone of your weight and age should be taking a 400mg dose. I have some 400mg dose packs of Ibuprofen and you are welcome to one if you would like.
^This is me sharing OTC medicine with a friend. This is completely legal as long as they are not a minor. It may be illegal in Sioux Falls, but it is completely legal pretty much everywhere else.

In nearly every jurisdiction, distributing OTC medicine is not considered distributing a controlled substance because OTC medication is not a controlled substance. Again, if the patient is a minor, parental consent is needed unless it is a school or camp situation where a parental waiver has already been signed.


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## jonliles (May 16, 2011)

*Re: First Aid Kits*

Just something to keep in mind-

Unless you are a medical professional (EMT, Dr, etc...), the *Average Person rendering First Aid is protected by the Good Samaritan Laws *which protect you from lawsuits. The Good Samaritan Laws vary state to state.

That does not excuse you from protecting yourself. Understand your limitations. Use proper protective gear and Blood Born Pathogen Prevention.


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## Blacksheep0317 (May 17, 2011)

*Re: First Aid Kits*

Honestly, the only things I would push for a venue is a simple first aid kit. Band-aids, some roller gauze, sterile water and eye flush if in a shop, a pair of gloves, and a mouth to mouth barrier device. An AED is always an awesome thing to have, cost permitting.

As an EMT, anything beyond that in a venue is fairly unnecessary. With the time it takes to get ems to a venue in the majority of cases, this is far over the top and can lead to issues. 

However, that being said, when your venues start getting larger (1000+), you will typically start having an EMT on your security staff. At that point the EMT and his med director should be making the decision based on their protocols and standing orders. 

The problem with people trying to help people this day is the fact that you will be sued for giving some kid a band-aid at the ticket office. I hate to be that person, but it happens. Alot, and unfortunatly I see it everyday while working on ambulances. Also, if it is something serious enough that you are going to need a med kit that large, you will need a higher level of care than you can provide. Just watch yourself, its always the best bet.


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## zmb (May 17, 2011)

*Re: First Aid Kits*


Blacksheep0317 said:


> The problem with people trying to help people this day is the fact that you will be sued for giving some kid a band-aid at the ticket office.


Do know of any specific case of that happening? I would like to know that the venue could provide any sort of assistance even as simple as a band-aid. Unfournately this is America where people have successfully sued because a coffee cup didn't warn them that the beverage is hot.
Personally, I don't see the issue of giving a kid just a band-aid, but that's the most I would give a kid if he/she was to ask me without a parent involved.

Perhaps another case of gray area here is who is reponsibible for providing care: the venue or the employee rendering care even with proper training outside of what the venue provided.


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## cprted (May 18, 2011)

*Re: First Aid Kits*


zmb said:


> Unfournately this is America where people have successfully sued because a coffee cup didn't warn them that the beverage is hot.


 Off topic, but if you actually go and read the details of the McD's Coffee case, you'll find that it isn't the outrageous example of an overly litigious society that people make it out to be.

Liebeck v. McDonald's Restaurants - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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