# I know its a bad idea, but...



## jtf107 (Mar 26, 2012)

So we have a show coming up at our school that we try to make as fun as possible, being the the audience is almost all students. The adults that usually over see our work don't really care what we do for this production (lighting, sound, projection, rigging). So I was approached by the student director today and asked if we could have people rappel in. I was kind of jumping with joy (because I have ALWAYS wanted to fly someone), but common sense said, "That would be Dangerous or Expensive". I ended up saying, "Ill see what I can do."

So my question is how (un)safe is it to have people rappel from a pipe. I have all of the proper harnesses, ropes, and equipment for ascending and descending, I just wanted to know how others felt about actually connecting it to a pipe.


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## avkid (Mar 26, 2012)

ABSOLUTELY NOT.


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## Clifford (Mar 26, 2012)

jtf107 said:


> So my question is how (un)safe is it to have people rappel from a pipe.



Potentially, very.


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## chausman (Mar 26, 2012)

A very large and resounding NO. (At least not by yourself)

For some good reasons,
http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/scenery-props-rigging/22876-i-cringe-even-asking-but.html
http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/scenery-props-rigging/24444-flying-people-risky-buisness.html
http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/special-effects/18538-making-people-fly.html
http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/scenery-props-rigging/24954-how-lift-people.html
Why Not to Fly, DIY - ControlBooth


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## jtf107 (Mar 26, 2012)

What are some of the main concerns you have. Im already aware of the varying load.


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## avkid (Mar 26, 2012)

jtf107 said:


> What are some of the main concerns you have. Im already aware of the varying load.



Are you prepared to assume the liability if something goes wrong?

There is no way the school's insurance covers this.


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## Edrick (Mar 26, 2012)

jtf107 said:


> What are some of the main concerns you have. Im already aware of the varying load.



The fact that no matter how safely you think you're doing it IF something goes wrong your school is in a heap of trouble


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## avkid (Mar 26, 2012)

Edrick said:


> The fact that no matter how safely you think you're doing it IF something goes wrong your school is in a heap of trouble



You'll also have to explain to colleges why you got expelled.


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## jtf107 (Mar 26, 2012)

This will not be conducted without a professional. Now, I'm more so interested in the particulars of why its bad.


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## Les (Mar 26, 2012)

I'm sure the exact dangers will be reprised shortly, but until then, you may want to take a look at the threads mentioned above. They contain many reasons as to why not.

This thread is very informative:

http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/scenery-props-rigging/22876-i-cringe-even-asking-but.html


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## Edrick (Mar 26, 2012)

Are you paying a professional who rigs people to repel to come in?


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## Les (Mar 26, 2012)

Edrick said:


> Are you paying a professional who rigs people to repel to come in?



Oh geez, I hope that isn't the case! There have been a least a handful of deaths and/or serious injuries in recent years during church Christmas pageants in which an "expert" repeller/climber came in to fly angels over the stage.


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## cpf (Mar 26, 2012)

It can be nearly completely safe. It can get people killed. The difference between those two situations is a properly-credentialed professional to evaluate the situation, check/provide the equipment, test it out, train the performers, and be present for all performances.

My experience: It's entirely possible to safely ascend & rappel off _certain_ parts of our stage's overhead structure. I know this because I've watched trained, professional arborists (attached ag college...) do it to hang banners & such. Nevertheless, I'd never consider doing it myself without their supervision (or even with...), and it'd never make it past me into a show (if it were my decision :neutral. I've always found back-lit silhouettes cutouts and tight blocking (etc) can get the job done without endangering life and limb.


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## Footer (Mar 26, 2012)

You can rapel down a rock face. You can rapel down a wall. All of these things can be fun to do. However, all of these things are done with a certain amount of known risk. Rock climbing is a vary dangerous sport. Every year in the mountains near my house many climbers lose their lives. Just last year one of my friends son's was driven to the hospital with a split head due to a climbing mistake. 

In order to mitigate the risk in an industrial environment there are many safety devices put into place that are not there in rock climbing. The gear is stronger. The harnesses are more complex. The ropes are stronger. The safety factor is much higher. Finally, the operator/user goes through hundreds of hours of training in order to do this. Rock climbers take risk to do what they do, industrial rope technicians do everything in their power to mitigate risk. 

Don't do this.


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## Grog12 (Mar 27, 2012)

Nothing good has ever come from the term "I know it's a bad idea but" all you're trying to do here is have us come up with an excuse for you to go against better judgement. Stick with your first instinct and don't do it.


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## MPowers (Mar 27, 2012)

To echo what everyone has said - This is a REALLY, REALLY, bad idea. On so many levels. Professional stunt men get hurt doing repel gags. I don't have the three or four hours it would take to list all the reasons not to do this. In real life, people don't survive dumb and dumber stunts.


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## LavaASU (Mar 27, 2012)

The problem with using repelling gear and techniques for that (outside of liability and lack of adult supervision) is you're trying to use repelling gear and techniques but change them to fit the performance (eg angels hooked up to pulleys, inadequate anchor points). To start with you're going to have an out of weight situation with the pipe and it will run through the rope lock. Also people tend to forget/skip things in the heat of performance (not checking connections, ect)-- no one cares if it takes an extra 30 sec to check something on a rock wall but you just missed the cue in theatre.


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## DaveySimps (Mar 27, 2012)

I agree with what everyone else has said. However, I also believe it cannot possibly be said enough; do NOT do this. It is not safe, you do not have the proper training or equipment, and it is evident that no one in your current situation has a complete understanding of the logistics and the many inherent risks involved. 

~Dave


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## josh88 (Mar 27, 2012)

As everyone has said this is a bad idea. People could get seriously injured and then you're liable and lawsuits and death can ensue. There are tons of reasons its a bad idea. You say it won't be without a professional, but as Edrick pointed out, are you talking about a professional theatrical rigger or someone who rock climbs? Even simple logistics here, if they are repelling from a batten, where are these people before coming in? up in the fly loft hanging amongst lights and other battens and cables dangling? and Sure you can repel off of things.... but you want the line attached to a solid object, not a batten that can swing. multiple people exerting force on it in multiple directions means it will swing all over the place and that's bad. If you want more solid reasons not to do it look through the threads that got posted. Too many people have died trying stupid stuff like this.


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## DuckJordan (Mar 29, 2012)

I echo exactly what everyone else has said, DO NOT DO THIS! The last time we did this in our space, we brought in an instructor who has several thousand hours of repelling experience (Military trainer), We had the actors put in 200+ hours of repelling time. We attached the repel rope to a solid point (NOT A BATTEN). Used the correct harnesses, used the correct technique. In high school you generally don't have access to 10% of what I just listed. If you can't do 100% of what I listed as well as be 100% capable of canceling the effect, should something not feel/look or seem right. Then DO NOT DO THIS.

I know it seems like a fun thing to do. Its certainly enjoyable to do, but it requires experience, training, and above all the knowledge of how to handle emergencies. This is not apporpriete for a high school production. Period. If you think it's a "Bad Idea, But..." then your answer is always NO.


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## hsaunier (Mar 30, 2012)

One word

"SPIDERMAN"


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## josh88 (Mar 30, 2012)

I'm honestly worried that since the OP hasn't checked back in here in awhile that he may just be going ahead with it. Hopefully advice and common sense kicked in, but I think he was hoping for us to back up the idea not shoot him down and decided to write it all off and figure it out on his on. I just hope we don't find out more about this in the news


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## chieftfac (Mar 30, 2012)

I've run into this a couple of times, and luckily have been able to reason with people how different rock climbing and flying people in the theater are. However, a question to all of those who are, like me, technical directors of performing arts spaces. How do you handle the liability when the board of directors insist that this will be done no matter your protestation? Can you go on record with a statement that you think it's a bad idea? And, yes, sometimes, in the past, my Board of Directors have gotten way too involved with the day to day running of this place... That's the main reason why we are on our 3rd Executive Director in 5 years...


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## josh88 (Mar 30, 2012)

chieftfac said:


> I've run into this a couple of times, and luckily have been able to reason with people how different rock climbing and flying people in the theater are. However, a question to all of those who are, like me, technical directors of performing arts spaces. How do you handle the liability when the board of directors insist that this will be done no matter your protestation? Can you go on record with a statement that you think it's a bad idea? And, yes, sometimes, in the past, my Board of Directors have gotten way too involved with the day to day running of this place... That's the main reason why we are on our 3rd Executive Director in 5 years...



I've been lucky to not have it forced upon me, despite some students wanting it. I have made it clear that I'll have nothing to do with it unless they are willing to bring someone in to do it. I would like to think they wouldn't fire me for refusing to do it and they can't do a show without me, nobody else is capable. I'd stick to my guns and refuse to take part in it, citing all the reasons and sources I can, and then I'd start to debate with myself about whether I want to work for someone who would force it upon you despite all good reasoning, or if I'd try to find some sort of happy medium we could both live with that I'd feel comfortable with in regards to safety. They did Peter Pan a few years before I got here and used rock climbers and gear to fly people and I have been vocally and adamantly against anything like that ever happening again here and I think they've got the idea.


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## gafftapegreenia (Mar 30, 2012)

Rock climbing gear can't do 1/6th of what a professional Foy rig can do, at least not as SAFELY. 

It makes me angry that people think its ok to hire rock climbing people for flying effects. It's a HUGE waste of money, time, resources and a giant liability. 

I don't even want to get into details about my experience with the idiots that thought flying people with rock climbing techniques was ok because it just makes me upset. Even the rock climbing rigger they hired to set up the equipment wasn't happy with their choices. It was not money well spent because it the end, after hours of training all they ended up with was a few small suspension effects that really did nothing to help the show. Again it makes me angry when people do things motivated by a wow factor instead of considering safety or what actually serves the show.

It's hard to convey over an intern forum how adamant I am against this.


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## shiben (Mar 30, 2012)

gafftapegreenia said:


> Rock climbing gear can't do 1/6th of what a professional Foy rig can do,



Agreed. I have rock climbed quite a bit, and the gear is excellent for doing many things: climbing up rock faces and going back down again being pretty much the things. Flying rigs are excellent for doing things like flying performers around a set. Unless you intend to build a rock face in the theater, and have someone climb it, you just wont even get good effects out of it, IMO.


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## zmb (Mar 30, 2012)

shiben said:


> Agreed. I have rock climbed quite a bit, and the gear is excellent for doing many things: climbing up rock faces and going back down again being pretty much the things.



It's designed to catch you if you fall and lower back down in a controlled manner. Nothing can happen in a hastened manner while maintaining control.


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## StewTech (Apr 2, 2012)

Is this really that terrible of an idea? I swear I saw a cast member rappel down a back wall onto the stage....the wall was at a 45 degree angle, so it seemed fairly safe. Besides, the guy only broke both legs, one arm and a collar bone doing it. That's worth it for the effect, right?

 Sarcastic much? Sorry, I couldn't resist.


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## What Rigger? (Apr 7, 2012)

Low on the priority list, but I'll do it anyway:

repel: To drive or force back

rappel: To lower, in a controlled fashion, a person down a rope

We Rope Access technicians get touchy about this. Go figure.


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## len (Apr 7, 2012)

Why worry about accuracy when someone's life is on the line? [/sarcasm]


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## chausman (Apr 7, 2012)

len said:


> Why worry about accuracy when someone's life is on the line? [/sarcasm]



Well, we want to repel the idea it is okay to rappel from a batten. 

I'm worried now that (like Josh88 said) the OP hasn't been back. I hope it at least decided to follow our advice.


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## EBB (Apr 10, 2012)

Can we at least screen shot it for the JR Clancy facebook page?


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## chausman (Apr 10, 2012)

EBB said:


> Can we at least screen shot it for the JR Clancy facebook page?



Can we at least hear back from the OP, or know what school this was for?


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## EBB (Apr 10, 2012)

He may have his answer and is washing his hands of it. Or at least I hope. I know I've seen churches pull that nonsense time and time again during christmas/easter and have asked me to do things like that- I of course decline. But I cringe every time I am surprised that they do it. 

I worked some revival of some sort at a church that repelled six people from the catwalks. And when I went up afterward to turn off the movers, I noticed the ropes were tied off with a single clove hitch without a half hitch or anything. I remember calmly going downstairs afterward and, walking into the office of the "production manager" for the building and then asking him nicely "Are you ****ing retarded!?"

That's my story. I stay out of that nonsense as much as I can and I cringe at this summer when Peter Pan is being done at a local college with kids being flown around. They are supposedly having ZFX come in and do all the work. but with kids, I still dread the thought of it.


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## shiben (Apr 10, 2012)

EBB said:


> That's my story. I stay out of that nonsense as much as I can and I cringe at this summer when Peter Pan is being done at a local college with kids being flown around. They are supposedly having ZFX come in and do all the work. but with kids, I still dread the thought of it.



ZFX has probably done that show hundreds (if not thousands) of times with similarly aged kids. They know what they are up to and the kids will be fine.


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## EBB (Apr 11, 2012)

Oh I'm not denying that. I know the name and have done a small bit of work with them in the past. But what they do is amazing to me... but out of my confidence level. And I also used the word "supposedly" because I don't know how they are getting the money.


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## avkid (Apr 11, 2012)

Honestly, you don't need to worry if any of the professional companies are involved.

I definitely agree about the rigs being amazing.
We actually found it to be much less complicated than it seemed.


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## EBB (Apr 11, 2012)

Well I asked one of there guys about how stuff works out in the house from the stage and it was kind of a complicated system of pulleys. I couldn't wrap my head around it- now I am not anywhere near the experience that they have for rigging and whatnot. But they say after you mess with it and understand the mechanics and math, that it's pretty simple to do. I will probably observe it a little more indepth if I get a chance. But I don't have any plans of doing anything like them.


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## gafftaper (Apr 11, 2012)

I'm guessing the OP has either listened and done the right thing or chosen to ignore us and never coming back. But for future reference, Do a search for "Owen Hart Death" Owen was a fairly famous wrestler who used the stage name "Blue Blazer". He fell to his death in a rappelling stunt. Here's a little from Wikipedia. 

> On May 23, 1999, Hart fell to his death in Kansas City, Missouri during the Over the Edge pay-per-view event.[46] Hart was in the process of being lowered via harness and grapple line into the ring from the rafters of Kemper Arena for a booked Intercontinental Championship match against The Godfather. In keeping with the Blazer's new "buffoonish superhero" character, he was to begin a dramatic entrance, being lowered to just above ring level, at which time he would act "entangled", then release himself from the safety harness and fall flat on his face for comedic effect—this necessitated the use of a quick release mechanism. It was an elaboration on a Blue Blazer stunt done previously on the Sunday Night Heat before Survivor Series in 1998.[44] Many suspected the harness was made for lowering small tools to carpenters, not for any human being. Hart fell 78 feet (24 m) into the ring, landing chest-first on the top rope, approximately a foot from the nearest turnbuckle, throwing him into the ring.[47]


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## EBB (Apr 12, 2012)

We can always add the Pink incident as well to something professional that can go horribly wrong.


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## len (Apr 13, 2012)

EBB said:


> We can always add the Pink incident as well to something professional that can go horribly wrong.



IMO, that's a bad example. The videos of the Pink incident that I saw give the impression that the safety checkers/assistants on either side of Pink were signaling "don't go" and the operator went anyway. They were LIKELY using the correct equipment. Using rock climbing gear (incorrect equipment) is more the subject here. But yes, even with correct equipment, you can get injured/killed, which is why it's doubly stupid to use incorrect equipment.


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## What Rigger? (Apr 13, 2012)

gafftaper said:


> I'm guessing the OP has either listened and done the right thing or chosen to ignore us and never coming back. But for future reference, Do a search for "Owen Hart Death" Owen was a fairly famous wrestler who used the stage name "Blue Blazer". He fell to his death in a rappelling stunt. Here's a little from Wikipedia.



If you can, find a copy of his wife's book "Broken Harts". A fine account of Owen Hart's life and death. The Wikipedia bit you quoted there is really not too accurate. I read the book, talked to a few other industry folks who would know and while in Toledo a few years back on a gig was able to get more info (that corroborated the book) from some of the riggers at the Local there. What I know as "the truth" in this case is way, way more horrifying than what is generally found in sources like this. Still freaks me the eff out, even now.


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## EBB (Apr 13, 2012)

len said:


> IMO, that's a bad example. The videos of the Pink incident that I saw give the impression that the safety checkers/assistants on either side of Pink were signaling "don't go" and the operator went anyway. They were LIKELY using the correct equipment. Using rock climbing gear (incorrect equipment) is more the subject here. But yes, even with correct equipment, you can get injured/killed, which is why it's doubly stupid to use incorrect equipment.



Ya. It was the point that even with safety, there is always the danger from the harnesses and the equipment to the users and operators. A different situation with a different set of circumstances. But it's just another incident where these things happen. Plus I'm sure we've all seen other bad footage of christmas plays and Peter Pan. With or without the proper equipment.


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## Cooperhodges (Aug 4, 2012)

The biggest problem you'll run into is liability. You always need to ask yourself, especially in stage lighting or something like your situation, if something happens, god forbid, who is responsible? We recently went through this at the university I am contracted out at to do lighting for. After a lot of questions and planning, we had to come up with a policy that covered volunteers under university insurance. However, since you're at a school, I doubt your school has insurance that would cover volunteers. Even if you do have a professional come in, you still need to be covered under some sort of insurance policy (such as an LLC). A pipe most certainly does not suffice as a launching point for your actors- what if it is corroded or compromised? You need to consider all of the possibilities carefully. Not to mention, your school board/management is probably going to want to know about something like this. Don't cut corners- that's how people get hurt.
Also, speaking of things gone wrong, has anyone seen the footage of the Sugarland concert in Indiana? That disaster right there is why, as a lighting technician, I never cut corners when it comes to safety.


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## Aman121 (Aug 8, 2012)

Ug he is from Pittsburgh like me. I do know that there are some schools around here that don't run their theater departments properly and throw safety out the window. I don't wish to elaborate on an online forum but I do know of a certain HS that ran a freestyle talent show and I also know for a fact is not as committed to student safety in the theater as it should be.....


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## chausman (Aug 8, 2012)

Aman121 said:


> Ug he is from Pittsburgh like me.



I'm not sure what that is supposed to mean, but it's certainly not limited to one area. I have a group near me that I would absolutely love to be more involved with (they are in a great facility and have great potential), however they choose to do things completely unacceptable (actually on this very topic), and I won't go near it. There's no way I am going near that.


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## Aman121 (Aug 8, 2012)

Like you I often get to work with other schools theatre departments with community events, freelance, ect. Almost all of the ones that I have worked with have good equipment but do not have students capable of running it efficiently or safely. I haven't run into anything this bad, but I have seen unsafe behavior by students in full view of a teacher who should have corrected it, but didn't. I have seen facilitys where underrated extension cords were used for lighting and there wasant a safety cable in sight. When im talking uderrated, im talking low gaige lamp cord running two 500watt instruments with ground eliminators to make it all work. When I pointed it out to the teacher he said he didn't really track what the students did but that he never used safety cables in HS. I have completely distanced myself from them even though they wanted me back this year; someone WILL get killed eventually. The reason I kinda cringed when he said he was from pittsburgh was I put two and two together and thought of a few of the schools without a clue....


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## FACTplayers (Aug 10, 2012)

jtf107 said:


> This will not be conducted without a professional. Now, I'm more so interested in the particulars of why its bad.



Don't let everyone here discourage you. People love to jump in and say "no" without listening. This IS a cool IDEA. DO NOT attempt any of this without a proven professional with credentials. You need to check with the school administrator or whomever is responsible for insurance. Also, make sure this is all cleared with your supervisors. And make sure everyone is safe. Just because you have the proper equipment doesn't mean the operators know what they are doing or that the equipment will not fail.


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## What Rigger? (Aug 10, 2012)

FACTplayers said:


> Don't let everyone here discourage you. People love to jump in and say "no" without listening. This IS a cool IDEA. DO NOT attempt any of this without a proven professional with credentials. You need to check with the school administrator or whomever is responsible for insurance. Also, make sure this is all cleared with your supervisors. And make sure everyone is safe. Just because you have the proper equipment doesn't mean the operators know what they are doing or that the equipment will not fail.



"And make sure everyone is safe." Well, the problem with that is: a lot of people are sure they're being safe despite a complete absence of knowledge or training. Like the saying goes "the road to h3ll is paved with good intentions". I don't think anyone here is trying to discourage anything or anyone, we're just trying to make sure things are done properly to avoid injury/death. No show/effect/gag, etc...is worth ANYone's safety.

To rappel in this sort of environment would go one of these ways, from my point of view:

You get trained and certified in industrial climbing practices and the rappel is performed by those individuals (assuming you have anchor points that will meet minimum requirements, which in most instances is 5000lbs for a human being to be on).

The trained and certified individuals would actually lower the non-trained individual. A sort of illusion of a rappel.

You hire a flying company to come in and rig the illusion of a rappel.

You hire a stunt coordinator, and actual stunt performers to do it for you. 

Personally, I'd go with one or both of the first two. I know I've said it before, but: it's called Rope Access and it'll get you to a LOT of places very, very safely. 

God, I hope I didn't get all preachy there.


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## gafftaper (Aug 10, 2012)

AMEN brother Rigger! They shall know the truth and the truth shall keep them alive!


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