# knots for feeder cable



## ProgrammerInTraining (Jul 20, 2011)

embarrassing question but I was wondering if someone can tell me the knot system used for identifying the feeder cable (possibly show what its supposed to look like). I know its important so I want to memorize it, all I know is blue has no lines and no knots.


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## xander (Jul 20, 2011)

Maybe I am just ignorant, but I have no idea what you are talking about. Can you elaborate? 


-Tim


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## porkchop (Jul 20, 2011)

Yah I'm really confused as well. The words knots and feeder in the same sentence kinda scare me. Please tell us more and maybe take pictures.


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## headcrab (Jul 20, 2011)

I think he might be talking about the number of knots tied in the tie line near the cams so the phases can be identified in the dark.


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## derekleffew (Jul 20, 2011)

From TMB FAQs - Cable Questions :

> What's with the knots in the sash cord on feeder cables in the film industry?
> 
> Feeder cables are designated with colored tape and often have knots tied in #8 sash cord at the ends of the cables. The code is as follows:
> Hot 1 Black Two knots on one side of sash cord
> ...


The next question is, "How prevalent is this system outside (or inside) the Hollywood TV/film industry?"

And: "Is it a good idea to depend on/advocate/perpetuate such a system?"


headcrab said:


> I think he might be talking about the number of knots tied in the tie line near the cams so the phases can be identified in the dark.


My thinking is that if there is insufficient available illumination to distinguish the colors of E-tape/Cam-loks, one has no business nor need to know the functions of the wires. <Insert joke/anecdote here about electricians working in the dark, the cobbler's children going shoeless, etc.> Futhermore, depending on the presence or absence of an overhand knot when dealing with high-voltage/amperage wires just does not strike me as prudent.


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## JD (Jul 20, 2011)

Rings a bell, but I haven't seen it in so many years... Basically, (if memory serves me well) used a string/small rope tied at the end to ID the cable as to N,G,H1,H2,H3. Last such cable I saw had Twecos on its ends, so you can guess the age! Modern color tape as well as colored rubber boots on the cams replaced it long ago.

EDIT: Looks like derek beat my post! Nice to know it was a valid memory. Still used in film?


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## xander (Jul 20, 2011)

Interesting. I've never run into that before. But, I also don't spend much time in TV/film land.


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## STEVETERRY (Jul 20, 2011)

ProgrammerInTraining said:


> embarrassing question but I was wondering if someone can tell me the knot system used for identifying the feeder cable (possibly show what its supposed to look like). I know its important so I want to memorize it, all I know is blue has no lines and no knots.


 
I have a special internationally-accepted knot system known as the "3M Scotch 33+ System"

It's so special that you don't even need tie line--all you need is colored electrical tape and a Mag-Lite!

And, it's accepted by any AHJ!



ST


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## Van (Jul 20, 2011)

I had never heard of this system. Never seen it used on set before. I do know a very special macrame' technique used to bind 5 wire feeder so that it lays flat and turn corners nicely.... it also eats up a lot of time on Mandatory 10's when the big wigs are around.....


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## Footer (Jul 20, 2011)

I have seen this once, however, there was colored taped involved as well. It was a tour that was based on the west coast. The idea of telling ground or neutral apart from a hot leg resting on one guy not untieing two knots by accident concerns me. Also, the fact that a cable with no ties which could be a ground defaults to hot also concerns me. What the film guys do is not at all close to what the rest of the world does. Those guys have vice-grips with cam lock connectors and also still have studios with DC power!


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## cfd701 (Jul 20, 2011)

Funny Ive worked in NY for 20 years and never come across this. Unless I did and just didnt know why the rope was there!!!


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## meatpopsicle (Jul 20, 2011)

So a quick google search turned up the same entry that Derek found. 

To answer derek's question: Here in NY we know of the knot system but it's generally attributed to old school LA film techs. The old Hollywood guys. It's from the days before the wide use or availability of colored electrical tape. Who knows when colored electrical tape came into use? ST? JD? I do know the advantage as stated to me was that all feeder is black and no time was spent color coding. Along with the knots was the practice of alway flat laying the cable and the order of phases and neutral (and later ground) never changing. You could go to any film set and count across the conductors and know what you had.

This would have been important with large sets. Film sets use an enormous amount of power. For instance the stories of Titanic where the ship set was fed by a flowing river of 4/0 8' wide coming off the step-down transformers. My set on Arthur had over 60 conductors!


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## meatpopsicle (Jul 20, 2011)

Interesting note:

An electrician with me on Boardwalk Empire reports the knot system was still prevalent in LA in 2005. "it's popular and extremely neat looking"


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## ptero (Jul 20, 2011)

meatpopsicle said:


> "it's popular and extremely neat looking"


 
...in a Rastafarian kinda way!


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## rochem (Aug 10, 2011)

*Re: Hodding feeder*


Gern said:


> We also use a non code (fire marshals don't recognize it, so we do tape as well) rope knot identifier system using the cable tie as the 'lines':
> G: 2 knots using two lines
> N: 1 knot using two lines
> H Red: 1 knot using one line
> ...



I was originally very skeptical of relying on stagehands not untying knots to distinguish between hot and neutral legs, but this makes a lot more sense to me than how I had originally envisioned this system. Obviously it's not perfect, but from what I can tell, there's little danger of mistaking a hot leg for a neutral/ground. Even if a stagehand goes and unties some of the knots, the worst that can happen is that you mistake a neutral/ground for a hot, not the other way around.

Out of curiosity, is it really that necessary though? When working in the dark, most stagehands I know always have a mini-mag on their belt or a headlamp on their head, and reaching for a flashlight is almost instinctual. Is there some reason why using a flashlight wouldn't be acceptable, or is this just a difference in commonly-used tools between the two disciplines?


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## Gern (Aug 11, 2011)

ProgrammerInTraining said:


> embarrassing question but I was wondering if someone can tell me the knot system used for identifying the feeder cable (possibly show what its supposed to look like). I know its important so I want to memorize it, all I know is blue has no lines and no knots.


 
First, remember we know this is NOT a code, nor is it in use elsewhere. We do it to make our jobs safer and easier.
Prog in Training, Yes you need to know & memorize it here in LA! It is neither outdated or going away. The comments here, slandering (even in jest) this system, won't even come close to the reprimand you'll get from your fellow crew if they work with you repeatedly and you never remember it.
BTW please feel free to contact me for any questions you have, I also invite you or any CB'er to visit me on set. Currently I'm an Ion @ Paramount Pictures Mon-Fri. Come on by, I love guests. Being a programmer in my own room I'm often bored!
Now for the rest of the comments:
I fully realize I'm a lot out of place here on this forum; my last 20+ years being in Hollywood Film & TV, as opposed to theatre. Still as long as you'll have me, I'll be here, as I enjoy learning new things about lighting, and as most of you know, there are plenty of VERY intelligent knowledgable people on these boards. I truly never mean to be disrespectful of anyone. We all have our place in this lighting industry. I always tell new crew, "There are no stupid questions. No one was born with this information." Remember folks, a desirable trait of humans is the ability to adapt. I feel you'd be hard pressed to find any working 728 member who feels this knot system is in any way unsafe.
Yes headcrab, it is an identifier with the sash tie lines at each end of cable.
Here in Hollywood we don't always get color coded camloks from the rental house. So when we lay cable the quickest way to I.D. the cable is to use a figure 8 in the ties- other knots are unacceptable, as the figure 8 unties very easy, no fighting another type of knot. If we feel we need to, we can fall back and use Scotch 33+ for Black and Scotch 35 colors in addition. We always spec Scotch tape, BTW. Speed counts tremendously here. NOT meaning speed OVER safety. This method makes it so much faster when we scramble to lay down 2/0 or 4/0, it doesn't mean waiting for the ends to be colored correctly. This is a big help when you have 4 company moves in a day with out a pre-rig crew. When on location with ample light sometimes the Industrial light sources can make the Scotch 35(or off brand) tape not appear to be what it really is. As far as people 'un-tieing' them, sorry never heard of it. Additionally we are very vigilant of our systems, other crew departments don't mess with it. If they even plug into a lunch box, they usually get brought up to speed fast about set protocol. 
The next question is, "How prevalent is this system outside (or inside) the Hollywood TV/film industry?" I can't speak for 'outside', but it seems to only be here in town. In town I'd say every set uses it. The only reason not to use it: if your feeders are properly pre color coded with tape or cams. Every human can/will make mistakes. If you make the mistakes repeatedly you will not be hired back. Probably true for any industry, right?
And: "Is it a good idea to depend on/advocate/perpetuate such a system?"
Depend? Well do you depend on your juicers to tape or knot correctly? Yes.
But as a Best Boy it is our responsibility to personally walk the line before energizing, taking care to double check all connections. It is easy to run your hand down the tie lines to 'read the knots'. If a BB doesn't do it personally they will entrust a senior crew member to walk the line.

Advocate? If you take the time to both tape and knot there maybe even less of a chance of a mistake. So, yes it makes it that much safer.
Perpetuate? Of course I do. So does the rest of my crew.

Van, that macrame is called 'handcuffing' in town and is so very prevalent here.
Yes Footer since films are now made all around the world, one could even narrow it down to "What Hollywood does is not at all close to what the rest of the world does!" 
I agree. Sure there are tons of examples of questionable practices done here in town in the past, but union Set Lighting Technicians have been undergoing safety training for many years now. 
Not sure what you mean about vice-grip cams, and DC power has been removed from lots. I may be wrong but I think only Universal has DC, and I hear they plan on taking it out when they can afford to. Paramount finished removal last year. I don't see anything wrong with qualified personnel working with DC. 
Yes meatpopsicle, neatness counts.
Be safe everyone, regardless of knots.


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## DuckJordan (Aug 11, 2011)

Gern, I'm sure I speak for most if not all of CB when I say we want you to stick around... Too often we get stuck in the only theater loop and don't realize while we may use a lot of the same equipment we may not use it in the same way. 

Great post.

By vice-grip cams he meant a metal vice-grip attached to feeder cable attached to a power source (we concluded that it was used to ground to water pipes.)


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## meatpopsicle (Aug 12, 2011)

DuckJordan said:


> Gern, I'm sure I speak for most if not all of CB when I say we want you to stick around... Too often we get stuck in the only theater loop and don't realize while we may use a lot of the same equipment we may not use it in the same way.
> 
> Great post.
> 
> By vice-grip cams he meant a metal vice-grip attached to feeder cable attached to a power source (we concluded that it was used to ground to water pipes.)




Gern, these guys are referencing a photo posted a couple of years ago of a Tie In done with vice grips. Some banded running through a kitchen with open water on the floor to a disconnect. Truthfully, it looked like something from here in NY. I don't think you guys do that much Tieing in over in 728. We still do here in 52 though its getting more rare. 

Lets just say the photo garnered a lot of antipathy from the theatre/concert crowd. In my view it was messy, and the vice grips are stupid, but I've seen tons worse.

As for CB: welcome. I am an LCP here in NY - currently on Boardwalk Empire with an Expression but I also program on Ma1s, Hogs, and Ions. Its nice to see another movie/tv programmer on the forum.


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## Van (Aug 12, 2011)

meatpopsicle said:


> Gern, these guys are referencing a photo posted a couple of years ago of a Tie In done with vice grips. Some banded running through a kitchen with open water on the floor to a disconnect. ....


 
just for referenece, and old times sake.



https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/-ArBGfwW7WzI3r8cFvtZGA?feat=directlink

Sorry, IE 9 refuses to play nice with CB and I cannot link from here.Anyway follow the link and look at the album there are several shots of the tie-in in question, plus several other things you shouldn't do.


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## meatpopsicle (Aug 12, 2011)

chausman said:


> Lets try this one:


 
Guys, this isn't the picture I remember. But it is very special. McGyveristic! 

Just to be clear - This is not how we're tought in Loc. 52


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