# New LED-based ERS



## ship (Jul 22, 2009)

[Below moved from a post in this thread: http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/lighting/14267-date-etc-source-4-par-introduced.html#post138897 ]

Beyond that, just saw the first in it long TBA who would do it first LED Leko today in demo. Wonder which department if stocked would get them the LED department or the Leko Department as it's called though we never stocked a proper LEKO by way of brand other than for resale purposes and I still have one up on the shelf that don't exist with the other fixtures that don't exist in my stash.

Retail price of the 20# LED Leko wash as it were is in the range of about $1,950 each and it don't have pattern holder or shutter cut yet as unified in the initial wash unit. TBA this fall in the process of development for about $2,340.00 theoretically if not a bit more for the unified Leko with both drop in pattern slot and integral shutters. Price now on the similar in size to 10 degree ETC Leko lens train shaped add on/clip on lens train for that pattern holder and shutter module is about $650.00 and weighs another five pounds in such a shape and bulk added to the front of the fixture. They also sell a special tool so as to lock off the now off balance yoke knobs in holding the extra five pounds and like 18" of added length to the front of it. Overall length similar or a little longer than a leko if you want a unit without shutters or pattern holder, similar to say a ten degree Leko should you want a pattern and or shutter cut. Wonder if the knobs are also one year warranty. Suppose the ETC off center balance adaptors might work on the fixture as even if they say when using the tools to clamp down the plastic yoke knobs, one can hang a person on them, there is still a balance thing about the fixture flopping down during focus as per some old 6x22 Altman. TBA it's a fixture still under development.

The front assembly clips is without safety cable and is fairly clubsy in mounting the lens train to the wash light base. The base fixture has a safety cable coming out of somewhere in the frame of it and would be hard to replace for now as design concept that might at some point change. Didn't like the panel mount Power Con plug feeding it eiter but I suppose that's more a standard thing these days. DMX feeds the fixture from another location off from the side also in not as neat cable feeding it but if one does Ethercon or Ethernet - forget which outlet, it is off the top of the fixture with the power. 

Other bad about it is the Gobo size, that's 100mm. Type like C they said in it not taking a more standard A or B in size. Also, while if you buy in bulk the fixture can come with a on-fixture menu or programming for a bit more in cost, at this point it's a light board based for it's cost in only doing what the light board tells it to do for color changing or color temperature changing. Also only as bright as about a 575w Leko persay in a dark room and in not competing with other fixtures. There is a TBA white light only and not color mixing fixture coming out which will be brighter but it and others are not designed at this point for stock color scrollers or gobo rotators. Could be with development.

As mentioned during the meeting, in concept it could be in theory mounted to some City Theatrical moving Leko type moving light arbor or made into a follow spot type mount and small follow spot was discussed. Difficulty being it can't do an iris, this much less the main fixture is 27 degree and while lens train add on options so far are available, if say the main fixture is 27 you get like a range of 19 thru 36 degree at best and need a completely different fixture to do 50 degree, plus a seperate lens train/pattern slot/shutter for such a wide focus unit. Easier to do wide beam focus so perhaps a ninety degree is feasible for such a LED Leko, but very clumbsy in say doing a pattern for other than the base focus.

Ok, onto the good of the fixture. While it's light board based, you can buy special easily installed components that say would do individual fixture control mode control of the fixture. Want it to do a chase and have only one fixture in doing so, you can and they will install the circuitry. Want a per-fixture range of color temperature - me not properly explaining the fixture it in the so far wash unit without internal shutters or gobo, it has a color mixing for gel and white light color temperature ability between say 2K and 6.5K one can mix and max with cameras with. Normally one does it with the light board but each fixture can get the drop in control of color temp. range or other control. Also they are TBA on the white light version which will be brighter due to more white light LED's and advancing tech in LED's. So basically in concept you get a fixture that can assume almost any color and change between them and assume any color temperature - for now in the sample fixture which didn't have lenses properly aligned... we apologize for that, different manufacturing process these days in the lenses on the sample slipping some, anyway this fixture has a fairly tight 27 degree beam spread which don't wash unless you add the supplemtal 26 degree lens train to it for focusing better without three halo rings in tight or feathered edge.

Still though it's a Leko that projected a 100mm pattern fairly well. The patterns we were told could be computer laser printed for black and white or color printed for color patterns. Some degree of black is black and not bleed thru was discussed but still as overall concept admitted to, yea a printer perhaps cannot do the best job but even still you can do an image on your computer and since its' a cool light you can be safe in what you print being a good pattern (to the extension lenstrain.) Can go metal, glass or even mylar overhead projector page and it will last the production without heat damage. 

That's a good thing given you pay extra for the lens train and or wait for the included part and possibly pay as much for it anyway. Color temperature matching is factory matched so if you call in added module for a 5K color temperature so as to match some lamps you should get it, on theother hand if you call up a Rosco 27 for color, you would have to use your Mark 1 Eyeballs so as to have these fixtures match that color. Given its' RGB for LED you can mix and match almost any color or color temperature on the base fixture but in matching a specific color other fixtures are using say a Rosco 107.... a lot of mixing and added frost gel. Ok, that was a hard one, like a 57... still hard to balance with conventionals for actual color in even if such a gel were added to the fixture you would still have to color match the white light to that of the other fixtures on stage. Sorry but have to remember the HES Color Command in a non-moving light that while used at times still never took off also as a fixture type.

Selling points initially with the demo, you can for a 27 degree Leko with a few other standard beam angle types available dial up a color temperature and or color for the fixture. If for now you add the add on lens train you can also shutter cut focus the light some and drop in a 100mm pattern. Soon it will be a unified unit but more expensive yet. While you can choose color temperature on a fixture there is no light boards at this point that will let you control a remote fixture for color temperature so you can only either dial that in on a 1-10 scale on the light board or if drop in feature for the fixtures screen program the fixture for it. Color also the same and there ain't no option for specific color matching but you can as needed control the fixture or fixtures with a light board or drop in a new controller to the fixture so as to individually control it for strobe or chase as desired. Don't need a dimmer on the other hand to control these fixtures in loosing intensity or say potentially in changing color temperatures while in use or colors. Can do this with light board or in programming if the right one mounted on the fixture. Possible perhaps even a menu on the fixture that would both program for colors scrolled to and for color temperature though that was not in the demo.

Yes architectural applications and even club uses. TBA the next era of them. Main statement, saw the for years now LED Leko... not impressed just as I was not impressed with the initial LED cyc light. Where it will go now that its' out... who knows. Doubt I'll by mid-summer in the coming years have like 400x moving light lamps to inspect next year.


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## tristanpants (Sep 10, 2009)

*LED ERS (mini Source4)*

I have just completed my 5th generation proto-type of a led based ers: with a gobo insert, 50ft focused throw under ambient light, 3lb weight, as small as a pin-spot and nobody to use it. I can make it more powerful but I have no company to build it. By the way It would cost less than a regular leko use 80% less energy and be just as useful. Anybody know who I should contact?


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## mstaylor (Sep 10, 2009)

*re: LED ERS (mini Source4)*

Before approaching anybody make sure you have the proper patents in place.


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## derekleffew (Sep 10, 2009)

*Re: LED ERS (mini Source4)*


tristanpants said:


> ...Anybody know who I should contact?


Altman, ETC, L&E, Leviton, Strand. 

To further what mstaylor said, I wouldn't go around calling it a "mini Source4" if I were you.

Is it fully dimmable from 0-100% without "steppiness"? What's the CCT? CRI? Beam/Field Angles?


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## shiben (Sep 10, 2009)

*Re: LED ERS (mini Source4)*

So its a 115W source? Is it a single LED, im assuming?


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## NickJones (Sep 11, 2009)

*Re: LED ERS (mini Source4)*

I tried building one of these but couldn't be bothered perusing it, magazines such as Popular Mechanics have a classifieds section in the back that list people to help you patent your design, but go on, tell us more about your LED ERS?
Good luck with it & introduce yourself in the new members section.
Nick


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## JD (Sep 11, 2009)

*Re: LED ERS (mini Source4)*

Well, if it is a single LED, you could call it a Source1 

Anyhow, before you go any further, bundle up all your designs and send them certified mail to yourself (do not open.) Often called the "poor man's patent." You need to pursue establishing a real patent before approaching manufacturers, but getting something postmarked may help you set a date should someone beat you to the punch before you get your patent approved. Once submitted for a patent, you can declare it "Patent Pending."


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## Pie4Weebl (Sep 12, 2009)

*Re: LED ERS (mini Source4)*

not to be cynical, but how many color kinetics patents do you think you may be using with out knowing?


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## jxgriffi (Sep 12, 2009)

*Re: LED ERS (mini Source4)*


JD said:


> Well, if it is a single LED, you could call it a Source1
> 
> Anyhow, before you go any further, bundle up all your designs and send them certified mail to yourself (do not open.) Often called the "poor man's patent." You need to pursue establishing a real patent before approaching manufacturers, but getting something postmarked may help you set a date should someone beat you to the punch before you get your patent approved. Once submitted for a patent, you can declare it "Patent Pending."



From the Patent and Trademark site:

There is no provision in copyright law regarding any such type of protection. Poor man's copyright is therefore not a substitute for registration. According to section 408 of the U.S. Copyright Act of 1976, registration of a work with the Copyright Office is not a prerequisite for copyright protection.



Pie4Weebl said:


> not to be cynical, but how many color kinetics patents do you think you may be using with out knowing?



If that's not the understatement of the year....


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## JD (Sep 12, 2009)

*Re: LED ERS (mini Source4)*


jxgriffi said:


> From the Patent and Trademark site:
> There is no provision in copyright law regarding any such type of protection. Poor man's copyright is therefore not a substitute for registration. According to section 408 of the U.S. Copyright Act of 1976, registration of a work with the Copyright Office is not a prerequisite for copyright protection.



As with everything else in the government, it's own statement is a contradiction unto itself! Hilarious!


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## wfor (Sep 12, 2009)

*Re: LED ERS (mini Source4)*


Pie4Weebl said:


> not to be cynical, but how many color kinetics patents do you think you may be using with out knowing?



And really, Color Kinetics and patents don't have a good history AHEMcoughSupercoughVisioncoughcough... excuse me.

http://livedesignonline.com/mag/show_business_color_kinetics_competitors/


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## tristanpants (Oct 21, 2009)

*I just finished my prototype led leko*

I just finished my first led leko type fixture. It has about 2000 lumens, it focuses, it spots and it is only 14 inches long and 5lbs. I sent it to Altman lighting with instructions to finish it off. They told me it wasn't for them...... I am really curious to see if they totally use my idea. Does anybody have contacts at one of the other lighting companies. I'm working on a source 4 par type of fixture with full rgb next.


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## tristanpants (Oct 21, 2009)

I'm new to this posting. what can I do with my led ers?
http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/lighting/15942-i-just-finished-my-prototype-led-leko.html


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## dvsDave (Oct 21, 2009)

*Re: I just finished my prototype led leko*

2000 lumens at what distance?


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## tristanpants (Oct 21, 2009)

*Re: I just finished my prototype led leko*

I get [email protected] 15ft and then there is the normal drop off. If I can get a better power supply I can probably push 3k. The problem or best part is it is a very small light. It's basically 1/3 the size of a leko,1/5 the light output, 1/15 power consumption. I need to find a person/company to help me with the digital dimmer and dmx imput It needs.


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## tcahall (Oct 21, 2009)

*Re: I just finished my prototype led leko*

lightnetwork.com has several folks from prominent manufacturers on the forum. You may want to post this there.

Tim.


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## tristanpants (Oct 21, 2009)

*Re: I just finished my prototype led leko*

Thanks Tim. Do you think this is a good Idea? Should I try to make it digital then move on to rgb?


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## Kelite (Oct 21, 2009)

*Re: I just finished my prototype led leko*

Not to sound to like a patent lawyer, but before submitting innovative ideas/drawings/photos to potential manufacturer partners a signed non-disclosure is really a good idea. Granted, the photos now online are 'public domain' and this may affect their status. Good ideas are a good thing. They allow innovation in the market place. Compensation for good ideas is an entirely different animal and follows a different set of procedures.

I'm just sayin'...


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## icewolf08 (Oct 21, 2009)

*Re: I just finished my prototype led leko*

As long as the LED that you are using is dimmable, there are many products that are already on the market that you could use to dim your fixture. Some come as just a bare board and others already have enclosures. A quick google search will probably turn up a bunch of devices. I don't know if you want the challenge of designing the dimmer and DMX interface yourself or if you would rather just move along to a working prototype, but I would imagine that it should be pretty easy to incorporate one of the off-the-shelf products to get your prototype working.


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## starksk (Oct 21, 2009)

*Re: I just finished my prototype led leko*

Kelite is right, you should make sure that you protect your hard work. Lots of people are working on solutions similar to yours, so if you have the better/faster/cheaper idea, you should make sure you are appropriately compensated.

As for the pictures that you posted, looks like an interesting proof of concept. There is an awful lot of light leak out of the rear of the fixture. I am not sure if this is the reflection of the element off of the glass of the lens or what, but you may try to incorporate some sort of reflector to help harness and redirect that light for a higher lumen output.

And, as icewolf08 said, making sure that it is dimmable is essential in the theatre market. If you are going for other markets, such as the architectural arena where it would be used for constant on applications, dimming may not be necessary.


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## Footer (Oct 21, 2009)

*Re: I just finished my prototype led leko*

Are you looking to produce just the source or the entire fixture? That fixture looks like an old altman fixture, not a new or even prototype fixture.


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## tristanpants (Oct 21, 2009)

*Re: I just finished my prototype led leko*

I am looking to produce the light source and control board. The prototype is for a retro-fit into existing altman fixtures. I signed an nda with altman but they where not interested. I posted it here because I know with input from fellow lighting experts I can overcome obstacles.


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## gafftaper (Oct 21, 2009)

*Re: I just finished my prototype led leko*


tristanpants said:


> I need to find a person/company to help me with the digital dimmer and dmx imput It needs.



Don't worry, he's already here and already read your post. If he's interested, I'm sure he will contact you. 

That being said Kelite is right, why are you giving away what could be a critical breakthrough and could make millions of dollars? 

Also note that Altman, ETC, and Strand aren't stupid. They won't admit it of course, but they've had their R&D departments secretly working on their own LED fixtures for a long time. We haven't seen any yet because they haven't been able to create a product that they feel fits into their product line with the right quality and brightness at the right price yet. It might be ready next year or it may be waiting for some other critical piece of technical innovation first. In short, these companies have invested a lot of money and had their top design engineers working on developing LED products for years. Not to be rude, but they probably just aren't interested in your fixture because they already have something superior to yours. 

On the other hand there may be a critical idea that you have that they haven't thought of, so don't give up.


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## Axislights (Oct 21, 2009)

*Re: I just finished my prototype led leko*

What would be more useful is a picture of the beam on a flat surface and perhaps with a gobo installed to see if you managed to eliminate the multiple shadows LED gives you. That really will make or break a concept for a "LEDko" But in any case I admire your drive!


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## tristanpants (Oct 21, 2009)

*Re: I just finished my prototype led leko*

I have been looking for a reflector and actually trying to get a custom rgb led built in china so it would be full color mixing. I have the optics 80% configured but I will probably have to have a custom body made if I plan to take this to market. People seem to like my first generation version of this which only had 1200 lumens. Mostly camera men bought it to replace hmi's or their flash. I definitely want to make it digitally dimmable because I found a cool wireless dmx receiver in italy. Any help would be greatly appreciated.


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## tristanpants (Oct 21, 2009)

*Re: I just finished my prototype led leko*

Multiple images? Oh.. that only happens if you have the light collimator too close or too far from the led. I think that the big companies are trying to skip white and go directly to rgb....But the problem is they are all so dependent on the color kinetics 3 led cluster for color mixing. Hopefully they will realize that the can custom build a single led with multiple chips.


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## starksk (Oct 21, 2009)

*Re: I just finished my prototype led leko*


tristanpants said:


> Multiple images? Oh.. that only happens if you have the light collimator too close or too far from the led. I think that the big companies are trying to skip white and go directly to rgb....But the problem is they are all so dependent on the color kinetics 3 led cluster for color mixing. Hopefully they will realize that the can custom build a single led with multiple chips.



The problem with custom building LEDs is that: A. They are expensive, B. LED technology is changing so fast that they will be obsolete in 6 months, C. Entertainment Lighting is a tiny fraction of the worldwide use of LEDs and thus does not drive the R&D that other applications do, and D. Multiple diodes on a single chip have significant limitations because of the heat generated.


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## tristanpants (Oct 21, 2009)

*Re: I just finished my prototype led leko*

Actually I have found a chinese company willing to do the custom work for a couple of thousand. With proper heat sinking the excess heat is minimal. Trust me, I have 4k worth of broken equipment to prove it. Led's don't change that often, it is only limited by the end users limited imagination. Stage lighting hasn't changed in 10 years because we are all so skeptical and perfectionists. I have professional photographers using my less powerful/smaller lights as hmi's. Imagine how much easier it is for them to use only 50 watts or less. I'm working on getting into a couple of museums in DC. We'll see.


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## gafftaper (Oct 21, 2009)

*Re: I just finished my prototype led leko*


> With proper heat sinking the excess heat is minimal. Trust me, I have 4k worth of broken equipment to prove it.


Did you notice the signature on that previous post you just responded too? I'm pretty sure ETC has spent a few $100k more than you on developing LED fixtures. 

Remember, it's not in their best interest to release a product that will potentially kill their cash cow unless it's REALLY a 100% replacement and in a price range that will still keep them competitive in the market. You are a small company, gambling much smaller amounts of money. You can afford to take risks and be nimble. A major manufacturer has to be 100% sure before they make revolutionary changes. 

Our standards are very high for ETC. We expect companies like AMDJ, Chauvet, and the Chinese manufacturers to experiment and develop fixtures. Some will be good, some won't. But when ETC releases an LED fixture, it's got to be AMAZING because that's the standard we expect from them. If ETC's first LED fixture isn't as bright as an incandescent Source Four and doesn't have excellent optics, it could seriously damage their reputation as the big dog in town.


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## tristanpants (Oct 21, 2009)

*Re: I just finished my prototype led leko*

I read the post. And I understand their business model. I am just an avid lighting "geek" who wants to have my LED ERS field ready and in use. Honestly the etc leko is the gold standard. But with all of the smaller events I do, museum set ups, photo shoots the standard luminary output and power consumption of a leko is not efficient enough. The people I build for, myself included need a green solution now to attract more clients. Right now you can use par 38's with 120w edison bulbs or buy cree led bulbs from Canada that use 15w. Why should the market wait for a $1500 led source 4 when they can have energy efficient and less potent fixture for $300??? I appreciate all who comment and am very thankful for each post. I feel like this will help me produce a really good product(from my garage). I never knew that there are more people like myself that love lighting!!!! Control Booth is my new fav. site.


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## derekleffew (Oct 21, 2009)

[Note by moderator: Many posts above have been moved here from other threads.]


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## tristanpants (Oct 21, 2009)

I'm working on getting the digital dimmer. As far as mini source 4...I don't have a name for it but it is a ERS fixture that can use a gob and focus properly.


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## tristanpants (Oct 21, 2009)

if you look through the postings you'll find pictures.Hopefully tomorrow I am going to take more pictures that show the use of the gobo. For some reason my posting w/ pics has been added to this etc post????? I'm a lighting garage geek not a LDI Gatecrasher.........I wanted my own post...


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## church (Oct 21, 2009)

Hving spent three years of my life with the accountability for the patent portfolio for a major company the information you have already posted and distributed has probably already eliminated the possibility of patents in a number of countrys. A US. patent is just what it says, a French patent works in France, a U.K. patent in the U.K. Taking out patents is very expensive think $20k plus for each country. Enforcing the patent is another problem altogether.

The issue with LEDs at the moment is that if you want to use a single LED as the light source in a Leko you still cannot get the equivalent lumen output. This fundamental issue has to be conquered.


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## Les (Oct 21, 2009)

tristanpants said:


> For some reason my posting w/ pics has been added to this etc post????? I'm a lighting garage geek not a LDI Gatecrasher.........I wanted my own post...



The threads were merged so as to consolidate all like-information.


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## tristanpants (Oct 22, 2009)

does anybody have any suggestions on things i should include?


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## tristanpants (Oct 24, 2009)

I finally posted a gobo test shot for all to see. Does anybody think I can find a company to help me produce this fixture?


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