# Fly system with not enough fly space



## Ilovebroadway (Nov 4, 2017)

I have a question about a fly system. My school has one but there isn’t enough space above the stage for a 20ft high backdrop to be concealed. I was wondering if there is any way I can get the whole drop above the stage, we want to get multiple drops and set pieces flown for different scenes, but as I said before there isn’t enough fly space and the drop can be seen from the audience view!


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## AudJ (Nov 4, 2017)

Keeping in mind you can adjust teasers and valences to different heights, what is the total height of your bar when out? How much of the drop is exposed when fully "out".

Can you adjust to a 16' drop, trim with valence and then save 8', or are we talking a lot more than that?

Lots of other ways to hang a drop in limited or no fly space, but without knowing the space, I'm starting with the simple.

Pictures or general dimensions would help derive a better answer.


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## Ilovebroadway (Nov 4, 2017)

Hello, thank you for your response! I don’t have any of the dimensions or the total height when the bar is fully out right now! Also I’m terrible with all of these terms and was wondering what you mean by teasers and valences!


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## BillConnerFASTC (Nov 4, 2017)

The 3 key descriptors for a manual counterweight system are high trim, travel, and weight capacity. I measure high trim from the stage floor to the center of the batten (aka: pipe, barrel, bar, light bar, and I'm sure other names) when it is as high as it can go. Put a tape on one and pull it all the way out and measure to floor. An inch or two is rarely relevant. Bring it all the way in and measure from floor, subtract, and that's travel. If you want to know capacity, there should be signage but if not, you can measure arbor (the carriage or frame that holds the counterweights) top of bottom plate to bottom of top plate and width of counterweight and I can probably tell you capacity.

Now, forgive me of this is too elementary, but valance (not valence), teaser, border - all used interchangeably often. If you don't have any - the presumption is you do - its the usually fabric piece hung over head and the bottom hem is anywhere from 8' to 30' above the stage floor, and it hides things behind it like lights from the audience view. 

So, your options are to hang drop on a track and pull to side, use a shorter drop or the lower portion of it and hide the top with a border, use two linesets (two battens) and lift the bottom of the drop along with top to same height, and a few other techniques that basically store a drop overhead in less height than the drop is tall.

Does that help?

For safety and usually best "stage picture" I'm guessing it would be hard to beat a track on a batten and use it for two drops (or more if long enough) with one (or more) stored each end. Not as elegant as flying but it allows a taller image which usually is a better proportion than a letter box view of the drop.


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## Ilovebroadway (Nov 4, 2017)

Thank you so much for the help! Our borders are not on a batten for some reason and can’t be adjusted as they are attached to the ceiling! Say you used two battens, what would be the best way to attach the bottom end of the drop? Also what do people use to weight the bottom of the drop to keep it stiff?!


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## BillConnerFASTC (Nov 4, 2017)

A pipe in the hem - like 1/2" steel pipe or maybe 3/4 or 1" intermediate conduit- is often the best because it also tends to stretch wrinkle both whats when corners pulled to ends. Chain is a little safer and there are curtain weight tapes - some sort of heavy metal (no longer lead I suspect ) sewn into a fabric tape. Less likely to trip on the end of chain.

The pipe does make "tripping" the bottom simpler sometimes - basically finding a clamp that will grip the pipe but not have to puncture fabric. Not sure some loosely based on loops wouldn't be an option. Always possible to clamp two 1x3 or similar but front one might be seen. Some ideas. You do have a little weight transfer to consider in the rigging. Probably best to balance so if it got away from operator it would go up, never down, but only by the slightest overweight. That's likely anyways.


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## Ilovebroadway (Nov 4, 2017)

Okay thank you so much for all the help! Do you know of a good eay To electronically move a set piece without a track line?


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## BillConnerFASTC (Nov 4, 2017)

Four guys with walkie talkies?

No but how big and heavy and straight line or must it turn? Any money to spend or super low budget?


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## EdSavoie (Nov 5, 2017)

First off: Welcome to Controlbooth!

If we had to hide something hung off a rear pipe, but couldn't move said pipe for some reason (our fly system is tall enough to fully hide any backdrop we throw at it, so that's not an issue for us.) we would cheat by slightly inching all the borders in (fly 'in' equals moving the pipe down), starting from the downstage curtains and moving back, such that by the time you got to the pipe in question, the border there is probably a solid foot or two lower than when you started...


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## BillConnerFASTC (Nov 5, 2017)

EdSavoie said:


> First off: Welcome to Controlbooth!
> 
> If we had to hide something hung off a rear pipe, but couldn't move said pipe for some reason (our fly system is tall enough to fully hide any backdrop we throw at it, so that's not an issue for us.) we would cheat by slightly inching all the borders in (fly 'in' equals moving the pipe down), starting from the downstage curtains and moving back, such that by the time you got to the pipe in question, the border there is probably a solid foot or two lower than when you started...


Yeah but the OP's are dead hung.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Nov 5, 2017)

ilovebroadway - still need help on wagon?


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## peacefulone61 (Nov 5, 2017)

This seems to be a common problem in most theatres that I work. I wonder if it is just a simple miss calculation on the engineers part Most of the spaces I have been can fly out a full drop if the sheaves were not attached.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Nov 5, 2017)

peacefulone61 said:


> This seems to be a common problem in most theatres that I work. I wonder if it is just a simple miss calculation on the engineers part Most of the spaces I have been can fly out a full drop if the shives were not attached.


It budget and massing. It seems expensive to build stage house tall and architects among others don't like this big tall thing towering over the school. 

Not sure what you mean by "shives were not attached". Perhaps you can explain. (And I think but not sure you mean sheaves, as in a pulley, but I suppose shivs - as in weapons - attached could prevent or aid flying a drop. Sorry peacefulone61, you got caught up in the great homophone clash.)


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## peacefulone61 (Nov 5, 2017)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> It budget and massing. It seems expensive to build stage house tall and architects among others don't like this big tall thing towering over the school.
> 
> Not sure what you mean by "shives were not attached". Perhaps you can explain. (And I think but not sure you mean sheaves, as in a pulley, but I suppose shivs - as in weapons - attached could prevent or aid flying a drop. Sorry peacefulone61, you got caught up in the great homophone clash.)



That is what I get for using a voice to text program. Yes, I meant Sheaves. The past two theatres I worked in had what was billed as full height flys, however, the drops would not fly fully out. The space that was left was coincidently the same space that there was from the bottom of the steel to the top of the Pipe fully flown out.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Nov 5, 2017)

To get full use of fly space available with manual counterweight, you really need a rigging pit, so arbor can travel far enough to maximize use of stage house. Double purchase is a poor second choice and more expensive on several counts to do same. Motorizing solves it nicely but costs a lot more.

No drawing is as important to the planning of a typical stage than an elevation of the rigging that shows all the parts and pieces and where they are at high trim and low trim.


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## kicknargel (Nov 8, 2017)

For the OP, here's a nice little diagram of stage curtains and their names.

Of course, there are multiple names for some things. Border = teaser. Leg = tormentor. (And tormenter can also be a lighting position.) Main curtain = grand drape = main rag. And next, Bill will complain (defensibly) about this diagram calling a non-curved drop a cyc.


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## AVerderyAerialRigging (Nov 8, 2017)

Might I also recommend that the OP hire a professional flyman or rigger to give him/her a crash course in basic stage rigging and counterweight systems? The questions asked show a substandard amount of knowledge for me to feel comfortable with all of the advice that requires someone who knows how to work at height. Please make sure that you get the training necessary, rigging is dangerous even when you've got 20 years under your belt.


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## Van (Nov 8, 2017)

kicknargel said:


> .... And next, Bill will complain (defensibly) about this diagram calling a non-curved drop a cyc.


If it's Upstage and flat it's a drop! A 'Sky Drop' maybe but still a drop. A Cyc, by definition, is a three sided soft good! <unless of course it is a hard cyc as often used in TV studios and some, really weird, stages.> I don't care what RB says. 

<Sorry Bill, beat you to it.>


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## Martin IV (Nov 8, 2017)

If you can't fly your drop all the way out, you might want to look into making a roll drop. They work pretty well for limited fly space situations.


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## derekleffew (Nov 8, 2017)

WTH, let's throw some gasoline...

Van said:


> If it's Upstage and flat it's a drop! A 'Sky Drop' maybe but still a drop. A Cyc, by definition, is a three sided soft good!


At one venue, a previous user had folded the sides back on the US of the transverse pipe (tired of the "wrap" portion blocking entrances/exits). Still a cyc? What about when the goods are in a hamper? Still a cyc?

So we can't say asymmetric-reflector cyc light? Drop light (aka trouble light)? Backdrop light (aka Wizard)? ETC iPhone app CYC Tool misnamed?


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## Van (Nov 8, 2017)

derekleffew said:


> WTH, let's throw some gasoline...
> At one venue, a previous user had folded the sides back on the US of the transverse pipe (tired of the "wrap" portion blocking entrances/exits). Still a cyc? What about when the goods are in a hamper? Still a cyc?
> 
> So we can't say asymmetric-reflector cyc light? Drop light (aka trouble light)? Backdrop light (aka Wizard)? ETC iPhone app CYC Tool misnamed?


Oh, You can SAY whatever you want.... Whether it's right or not is the question.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Nov 8, 2017)

The fact that you can use a cyc light for other than a cyc, say for a sky drop, does change the name given it by the manufacturer. Don't be silly.


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## kicknargel (Nov 10, 2017)

I'll pedant with the best of them but I think this is a place where the language needs to adapt to the common usage. I don't like "sky drop," because it's not necessarily being a sky. It's serving the function of a cyc in terms of usage. 

My doorbell has no bells in it at all, my iron is made out of teflon and plastic, and "selfie" is in the dictionary. What can you do?


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## JohnD (Nov 10, 2017)

If it's pick on @BillConnerFASTC time, I do cringe a little when he writes "quartz" lights rather than tungston-halogen.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Nov 10, 2017)

It's popular these days to rewrite history and ignore traditions. Let's adopt history to what's convenient and trendy. Makes it easier to go get the lessens of the past.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Nov 10, 2017)

JohnD said:


> If it's pick on @BillConnerFASTC time, I do cringe a little when he writes "quartz" lights rather than tungston-halogen.


You're right. "A *halogen lamp*, also known as a *tungsten halogen*, *quartz-halogen* or *quartz iodine lamp*, is an incandescent lamp consisting of a tungsten filament sealed into a compact transparent envelope that is filled with a mixture of an inert gas and a small amount of a halogen such as iodine or bromine." 

I'll try to use quartz-halogen here-to-fore.


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## JohnD (Nov 10, 2017)

In all fairness I should explain. Long ago in the first technical theater course I took the instructor mentioned these "new-fangled" quartz lights and explained that it was a quartz crystal that glowed. I should point out that it was a small department and he was the only person teaching all the tech courses and was primarily a scene and costume designer. I had also discovered TheatreCrafts magazine and had just read an article on the these lamps and all the advantages.


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## teqniqal (Nov 10, 2017)

Martin IV said:


> If you can't fly your drop all the way out, you might want to look into making a roll drop. They work pretty well for limited fly space situations.



Or the opposite with an Oleo drop (the storage roll is at the bottom and the scenery rolls up on it as it is raised, while the top of the scenery drop remains static.
Or get mechanical and make a wall of small periaktos (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Periaktos) that all move in synchronous rotation (like you sometimes see in billboards).


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## derekleffew (Nov 10, 2017)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> I'll try to use quartz-halogen here-to-fore.


No, please no. T-H or Q/I, but not QH or TI.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Nov 10, 2017)

Does anyone here not know what is meant by "quartz" lamps or profiles or whatever?


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## JohnD (Nov 11, 2017)

Why yes, here is an example.


Sally Sunshine oft enthuses upon the healing qualities of this type of lamp.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Nov 11, 2017)

Of course, that's exactly what people think of when I say quartz profile.


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## egilson1 (Nov 11, 2017)

Just call them light bulbs. Geez.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Nov 11, 2017)

egilson1 said:


> Just call them light bulbs. Geez.


I always liked bottles. Quartz bottles or LED bottles. Right there with Source4 lekos.


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## kicknargel (Nov 11, 2017)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> It's popular these days to rewrite history and ignore traditions. Let's adopt history to what's convenient and trendy. Makes it easier to go get the lessens of the past.



I'm not sure why I picked this fight, because I'm almost entirely on your side. Language does and must evolve, but I prefer to be on the side of slowing the evolution. I think I've mentioned that I love to confuse electricians by calling out Roscolux gels as x05, etc, because that's the way I learned. By the time I learned it, the distinction from Roscolene was already irrelevant, so I'm second generation luddite on that. We all draw the line somewhere.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Nov 11, 2017)

I still think 500s and cinemoid....


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## JonCarter (Nov 11, 2017)

I well remember an afternoon in Jr. High being on top of the "A" laddrer fixing a Fresnel that was out. Opened the front and found a broken filament. Unplugged it and called down for a new "BULB." After a few minutes our dear drama teacher, Mr. Martin, climbed up under me and handed me--a bulb. It was about 8" in diameter and I think it was a fish bowl. After everyone on the crew stopped laughing, he asked, "Now. would you like a base and a filament with that?" Never said "bulb" since. 

And, Bill Conner, I still think in Cinabex.


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## derekleffew (Nov 11, 2017)

JonCarter said:


> and handed me--a bulb.


It would have been more funny had he handed you a daffodil bulb.


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## RonHebbard (Nov 12, 2017)

JonCarter said:


> I well remember an afternoon in Jr. High being on top of the "A" laddrer fixing a Fresnel that was out. Opened the front and found a broken filament. Unplugged it and called down for a new "BULB." After a few minutes our dear drama teacher, Mr. Martin, climbed up under me and handed me--a bulb. It was about 8" in diameter and I think it was a fish bowl. After everyone on the crew stopped laughing, he asked, "Now. would you like a base and a filament with that?" Never said "bulb" since.
> 
> And, Bill Conner, I still think in Cinabex.


 @JonCarter At least he didn't bring you a daffodil or tulip. 
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.


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## BillConnerFASTC (Nov 13, 2017)

Did you see https://www.controlbooth.com/threads/led-cyclorama-question-whats-your-opinion.43025/ ? A few people have cycloramas, not flat cloth drops that might be lit to look like sky. How sweet it is.


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