# AV Modeling/Drafting In Revit



## RobDraw (Oct 8, 2018)

Hi all,

I know I'm not in the right place but someone directed me to an old thread here (https://www.controlbooth.com/threads/av-bim-workflow-in-revit.28873/page-2) and I haven't been able to find much else on the subject. I'm hoping someone here can point me in the right direction. I just started a new drafting position in the AV design field. I have plenty of drafting experience but not in the AV industry. I'm hoping someone can direct me to a more suitable forum.

I'm looking for others doing drafting in the AV industry to exchange information, best practices, industry standards, geared towards producing design documents using Revit/AutoCAD.

Regards,

Rob


----------



## RickR (Oct 8, 2018)

Welcome Rob!

I'm just getting to know Revit and finding a broad mix of likes and dislikes. I think I've finally created a 'family' for stage curtains that is manageable. 

I don't do much A/V but do a lot of lighting including one-lines and device details. IMHO basic drafting functions are extremely limited in Revit, likely on purpose as they have AutoCAD file linking. Getting things into the general model so that the mechanical guys don't block my rigging is incredibly important as is generating client walk throughs. I'm sticking with 2D drafting for detail elements.


----------



## MNicolai (Oct 8, 2018)

Step 1: Identify what level of detail and information you want represented on your drawings.
Step 2: Manipulate Revit to give you what you want in an efficient workflow, resisting the urge to overdraft.

There are a number of different ways to model in Revit. I've seen lots of AV done throw symbol plans like have been done for ages. My personal preference is to model in 3D like God (Autodesk) intended and tag elements. There are pros and cons either way. Really depends what you want to show and what your other collaborators, if any, need to see.


----------



## RobDraw (Oct 9, 2018)

RickR said:


> Welcome Rob!
> 
> I'm just getting to know Revit and finding a broad mix of likes and dislikes. I think I've finally created a 'family' for stage curtains that is manageable.
> 
> I don't do much A/V but do a lot of lighting including one-lines and device details. IMHO basic drafting functions are extremely limited in Revit, likely on purpose as they have AutoCAD file linking. Getting things into the general model so that the mechanical guys don't block my rigging is incredibly important as is generating client walk throughs. I'm sticking with 2D drafting for detail elements.



I started using Revit with V2010 after 10 years of 2D drafting in AutoCAD. Trust me, I've heard all the arguments against switching to Revit. Frankly, they don't hold much water with me. I found the 2D drafting tools in Revit refreshing. If Revit is getting in the way of coordination, then someone is doing it wrong. Revit in the hands of capable people can do amazing things. Granted, it's far from being intuitive that is a huge learning curve. Also, all parties involved have to be onboard. The biggest hurdle is not the program, though. It's the people part.


----------



## BillConnerFASTC (Oct 9, 2018)

Does Revit do theatre floors yet - essential a cone shaped foor slab? It didnt as of a year ago. 

Also disappointing it doesn't seem to allow showing things in two positions - like a stage lift or curtain. Very helpful when trying to communicate to workmen on site - which I consider the primary goal of construction drawings.


----------



## RobDraw (Oct 9, 2018)

I don't do floors.


----------



## MNicolai (Oct 9, 2018)

BillConnerFASTC said:


> Does Revit do theatre floors yet - essential a cone shaped foor slab? It didnt as of a year ago.



To my knowledge, not natively as a floor. This has to be modeled as a family and shown stuck on top of the slab. Basically how any non-standard architecture gets modeled.

One of the other funky things to model are acoustical clouds. Revit doesn't like tilting geometry so it's no longer plumb. Can't just drop 30 acoustical clouds into a room you will have a hard time manipulating their elevations and angles within Revit. I usually end up modeling these in Sketchup, importing into EASE, tweaking, then exporting back to Sketchup, then exporting the cloud geometry to 3D DWG, and importing into a Revit family. Then I send that over to the arch with the critical dimensions noted so they can align the cloud cluster appropriately in their models. Where there's a will, there's a way. 


> Revit in the hands of capable people can do amazing things. Granted, it's far from being intuitive that is a huge learning curve. Also, all parties involved have to be onboard. The biggest hurdle is not the program, though. It's the people part.



Getting everyone on board, especially contractors is near impossible. You can do all the fancy Revit work you want and coordinate to your heart's desire but if the contractor isn't maintaining their own BIM model then there's still a good chance field coordination turns into a free for all. The sprinkler guy is still going to rock their pipe work before anyone else gets in the room and do what they want, followed by the plumbers, followed by mechanical. If the CM isn't interested in maintaining their own Revit model for as-builts, then you can have a pretty good idea that another 100 hours worth of modeling time in Revit for coordination might not make any difference in preventing change orders.

This is not to mention that in general, the level of detail and coordination required in A/E drawings is going up, but A/E's are generally not seeing additional design fees for this effort. The CM is still the one getting paid for construction coordination efforts. In order to have successful project outcomes, you need to get your Revit work completed with enough design fee left over that you can still be available for site visits and field coordination as if it were an AutoCAD gig. Cynical though this may sound, I say it as someone working on multiple projects where the CM's strategy is to RFI every detail of field coordination to death and demand revised design drawings because they excluded as-builts from their own scope and from the scopes of their subs.


----------



## RobDraw (Oct 9, 2018)

Please, let's not turn this into another one of "those" discussions. That other thread was painful enough to read with all the nay-sayers. There is no way that Revit creates these problems.


----------



## BillConnerFASTC (Oct 9, 2018)

RobDraw said:


> Please, let's not turn this into another one of "those" discussions. That other thread was painful enough to read with all the nay-sayers. There is no way that Revit creates these problems.



I'm happy for you that you like Revit and that it works for you. I, along with the overwhelming majority of professional theatre consultants, don't find it helpful or good for theatre planning and design. As I noted, it can't draw theatre floors, which is fundamental to theatre consulting. A lot of other basic things it can't do that have been done for many years in theatre design and construction, to great benefit in getting the building built as intended.


----------



## MNicolai (Oct 9, 2018)

RobDraw said:


> Please, let's not turn this into another one of "those" discussions. That other thread was painful enough to read with all the nay-sayers. There is no way that Revit creates these problems.



It's not that Revit creates problems, but it is no magical problem solver. It defers a lot of judgement to people who can model, who aren't necessarily the ones making the critical architectural decisions.

I'm happy to have other discussions about Revit, but a lot depends on how you actually want your drawings to look. Like I said, I know a lot of technology designers who us it generically as a 3D way to draw 2D plans with symbols, not really leveraging any of the 3D modeling or coordination benefits. In general, just going online and downloading a manufacturer's premade content will get you the exact device specs for something, but it won't offer anything for making your projects coordinate faster, or helping you along in your design process. In my own travels, I had to design my own content for that kind of work and it was driven largely based on "What does this need to look like as a finished product?"


----------



## RobDraw (Oct 9, 2018)

Thanks for not turning this into one of those discussions and thanks for hijacking this thread.

I'm not going to argue with you guys as you've already got your minds' set. Plus, that is not the information that I asked about.


----------



## MNicolai (Oct 9, 2018)

I've asked a couple times what you want your drawings to look like. Presumably your company already has a style they're used to, whether that gets you where you need to go or you need to adapt it. There's a huuuugee degree of different ways to model AV in Revit. I cannot provide much advice without knowing what drafting style you're trying to target.

Aside from what you want your models to look like, there's also the issue of what your contractual obligation is. Do you need to draft accurately enough that in 3D elevations everything is accurately represented? Do you only need to have everything accurate in 2D plan and elevations either don't matter or only need to be "in the ballpark"?

From Day 1 diving into Revit adoption, you're going to burn out trying to make deliverables and you'll be setting your design fee on fire to try and target LOD 400 or LOD 500 accuracy.


----------



## RobDraw (Oct 9, 2018)

Yeah, I'm not looking for that kind of guidance. As I said, I'm not new to Revit by any stretch of the imagination.

What I'm looking for are some like-minded people that are using Revit in the AV industry to share ideas with and ask questions about specific topics.


----------



## BillConnerFASTC (Oct 9, 2018)

I don't know av designer websites. It appears that is the case for others here. https://www.prosoundweb.com/ might help. Hopefully you will find av designers who use and like Revit. None I know and work with regularly do.


----------



## RickR (Oct 10, 2018)

I'm too new to have my mind made up, and maybe to have much to offer. But I' love to talk and learn more about adapting theatrical needs to Revit. 

I've used many CAD programs both architectural and general purpose, and was trained on paper.


----------



## RobDraw (Oct 10, 2018)

RickR said:


> I'm too new to have my mind made up, and maybe to have much to offer. But I' love to talk and learn more about adapting theatrical needs to Revit.
> 
> I've used many CAD programs both architectural and general purpose, and was trained on paper.



Good luck with that. There seems to be a lot of negativity towards using Revit for theater design around here, but I'd be glad to help out if my experience is applicable.


----------

