# Legal and Illegal Lamps



## Shawncfer (Sep 7, 2010)

So I know I've read posts about this in the past but I cant find anything right now. Do you guys know anything about what lamps are illegal and what lamps are soon to be illegal and why? I'm having to write a paper about how to be more "eco-friendly" in the theatre. So yeah. Thanks


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## WooferHound (Sep 7, 2010)

Here are a couple of stories . . .
http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/...may-ban-conventional-lightbulbs-2012-a-2.html
http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/lighting-electrics/5079-future-interesting.html
http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/lighting-electrics/21346-zero-carbon-footprint-lighting.html


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## derekleffew (Sep 7, 2010)

Some more threads:
http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/scenery-props-rigging/17798-lauan-isnt-green-say-aint-so.html
http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/scenery-props-rigging/4373-green-scenery.html

You might also want to put in your paper that, to my knowledge, every proposal to ban the incandescent lamp has included a provision that specialty lamps, such as those for stage/studio use, are exempt. Neither the HPL575, nor the FEL, are going away any time soon.


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## xander (Sep 7, 2010)

derekleffew said:


> Neither the HPL575, nor the FEL, are going away any time soon.


 
That's a shame. I wish the FEL would just leave those poor 360Qs alone!


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## Tex (Sep 7, 2010)

xander said:


> That's a shame. I wish the FEL would just leave those poor 360Qs alone!


Me too, but we need it to punish the 5/50s.


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## shiben (Sep 7, 2010)

derekleffew said:


> Some more threads:
> http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/scenery-props-rigging/17798-lauan-isnt-green-say-aint-so.html
> http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/scenery-props-rigging/4373-green-scenery.html
> 
> You might also want to put in your paper that, to my knowledge, every proposal to ban the incandescent lamp has included a provision that specialty lamps, such as those for stage/studio use, are exempt. Neither the HPL575, nor the FEL, are going away any time soon.


 
You might also want to include a bit on how we get the power makes a huge difference if its "green" or not. Even a really bright 1k lamp is still "green" if all the energy to power it comes from geothermal, wind, or solar power sources, and can be marginally "green" if it is powered by a hydro-electric dam. For example, if there is a theatre in Reykjavík would have a totally "green" lighting rig, as all of Iceland's electricity (last I heard, might be wrong now) is produced by geothermal and hydro sources, even if it is not an all-LED rig. Greening theatres is not just us starting to use higher efficiency lamps, that actually doesnt solve any major problems, as the real problem with using light bulbs and lamps is still there and being used, namely the coal burning power plants.


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## jonliles (Sep 7, 2010)

shiben said:


> Greening theatres is not just us starting to use higher efficiency lamps, that actually doesnt solve any major problems, as the real problem with using light bulbs and lamps is still there and being used, namely the coal burning power plants.



This is where I have to chime in. I am a power industry professional, specifically I specialize in refurbishing power plants, particularly gas turbines. It is what pays my bills. You can't make a correlation saying a theatre is green by using only geothermal power or a theatre is not green by using fossil-fueled power (coal & nat gas, +other pertoleum derivatives). You simply can not control were you receive all of your electricity from. Besides that, until you know all the specifics of a power plant, you can not assume that all power plants are carbon belching beats. We take great care in retrofitting older plants to meet current and future emissions needs.

Here is the question that should really be asked and answered. *How do I reduce the carbon footprint of a theatre/performance venue*. Realistically, instead of saying carbon footprint, you should say environmental impact - and DEFINE what environmental impact means for the purposes of this paper.

How do you answer this? Simple (perhaps overly simplistic). Carbon offsetting/sequestering & Reduce. Reuse. Recycle.

Carbon offstting/sequestering I am not going to touch on. There is a cornicopia of information available on those programs.

Reuse and recycle is the easiest thing for us in the theatrical world. So how do I reduce?

*Reduce: How do I reduce my power and water consumption? *

*Reduce Light Loads*: You can start with more efficient lamps that draw less current. Less current means less heat, less heat means less HVAC load, less HVAC load means even less power consumed. But wait, LEDs aren't bright enough, or do not have the right CRI. Don't limit yourself to just the stage, the stage is just one aspect of the entire building. LEDs could be used everywhere else. Yes, they are expensive from a first time purchase, but as others have stated through out many threads, you save in energy consumption & you can delay maintenance costs of changing a failed lamp - Even when compared to flourescent lights (not to mention the mercury used in flour's, and with CFL's you have other heavy metals in the electronics).


*Reduce HVAC loads*: I've already mentioned more efficient lights. Now, lets talk about the roof. Does this facility have a heat island profile? Do you have the option of a green roof? Green roofs have a few benefits. They help to reduce your heat island by reducing the localized hot spot ( you should see thermal imagining of any metro area and see all the hotspots roofs create). Also, they absord rainwater reducing the amount of water through the storm drains - which has a whole host of environmental issues. If you can't do a green roof, how about changing the type of HVAC unit. How we make heat and we cool the air can drastically change power consumption. Also, how well is your space insulated? Insulation reduces heat transfer of hot to cold (cold can be inside in the summer and outside during the winter).

*Reduce: Alternative Energy* . Can I install solar panels? Solar may not be able to supply all of your system needs, but in can help to drive your total dependency on the grid. If not solar, how about a micro wind turbine generator - same issue though. Performance spaces are huge consumers of electricity. Near term alternative energy will not be able to satisfy all demand, but they can help to lower it drastically.

*Reduce: Water.* Let's touch on Rainwater. Rainwater can be used for all sorts of things, beyond just watering plants. It can be used to flush toilets (huge resource benefit). It can alos be used in conjunction with your cooling plant (if you have that variety of cooling plant). Now, look at zero water toilets (especially men's urinals) - how many liters per flush saved there? Now, you not only saved water used, you reduced the amount of sewage generated.

*Bottom Line*. Look at LEEDs certification. That program is deisgned around reducing a facilaty's environmental impact. As an example, here in Atlanta, the Balzer Theatre is LEEDs Silver certified - it is also the home of the Theatrical Outfit.

I apologize for the lengthy post, as you can see, it is something I am passionate about. Changing where we get our power from is not the only answer, it is only one facet of a very complex question - one that we have minimal control over. Focus on what we can control. My intent is to encourage new ideas and thought processes. As people in the Entertainment industry, let's focus out what we can control from a new build and retrofit standpoint. 

Delo, you represent Osram, what has your organization done to make your product more green, from both a manufacturing standpoint and a end-user standpoint. Can you share some thoughts?

So that's it. There's the challenge. What can you do to minimize the carbon footprint/environmental impact of your facility, with the understanding that you can not control any of the upstream entities?


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## jonliles (Sep 7, 2010)

Additional food for thought, back to what the OP asked about illegal lamps and:

> I'm having to write a paper about how to be more "eco-friendly" in the theatre.



As Derek mentioned:

> every proposal to ban the incandescent lamp has included a provision that specialty lamps, such as those for stage/studio use, are exempt



I believe my previous post highlights some possibilities for you. Lobbies, architectural highlights, general lighting - anything that uses a good old fashioned light bulb - will eventually be subject to the great ban (including, much to my dismay, my reading light at home - CFL's trigger migraines). I personally believe that Flourescent lights will eventually fall prey to the ban as well.

It is not just about illegal light bulbs (or lamps), it is about reducing environmental impact. There are many ways to be "eco-friendly," I've only made a few suggestions. There are many, many more avenues to explore to reduce our overall environmental impact. Take the topic. Change it around. Run with it. It is certainly exciting times for change in our chosen craft/profession/hobby.


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## JD (Sep 7, 2010)

First on the chopping block is the good old "A" style lamps (A19 & A21 are standard light bulbs we have lived with in abundance.) Although I use the twisty death lamp (CFLs) in my post lights, stairwells, basement and garage, I have also horded a lifetime stock of "A" lamps for the table lamps I have in my living room and bedroom. 

As brought out, theater lamps are not on the chopping block for now. That ban may never come to pass. My hope is that we will have some real alternatives that produce a broad and smooth spectrum of light before any ban becomes real. My beef is not that I am against being energy efficient, but that there is government pressure being applied prior to good alternatives being available.

As for the CFL..... You would think the way they are being pushed that breaking one would baptize you with the holy spirit as compared to destroy your nervous system with a stew of mercury. (IMHO)


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## jonliles (Sep 7, 2010)

JD said:


> Although I use the twisty death lamp (CFLs) in my post lights, stairwells, basement and garage, I have also horded a lifetime stock of "A" lamps for the table lamps I have in my living room and bedroom.
> ...
> As for the CFL..... You would think the way they are being pushed that breaking one would baptize you with the holy spirit as compared to destroy your nervous system with a stew of mercury. (IMHO)



On hoarding, me too. Evidently, there is a genetic predispostion to it in my family.

what's a little mercury in your tea these days? "Happy Un-Birthday." -Mad-Hatter


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## mstaylor (Sep 7, 2010)

jonliles said:


> This is where I have to chime in. I am a power industry professional, specifically I specialize in refurbishing power plants, particularly gas turbines. It is what pays my bills. You can't make a correlation saying a theatre is green by using only geothermal power or a theatre is not green by using fossil-fueled power (coal & nat gas, +other pertoleum derivatives). You simply can not control were you receive all of your electricity from. Besides that, until you know all the specifics of a power plant, you can not assume that all power plants are carbon belching beats. We take great care in retrofitting older plants to meet current and future emissions needs.
> 
> Here is the question that should really be asked and answered. *How do I reduce the carbon footprint of a theatre/performance venue*. Realistically, instead of saying carbon footprint, you should say environmental impact - and DEFINE what environmental impact means for the purposes of this paper.
> 
> ...



I was with you right up to the zero water toilets. I personally think they are a horrible idea. The reduced water tanks don't work very well either. Many times you have to flush more than once to clear the bowl so you are saving nothing.


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## FMEng (Sep 7, 2010)

jonliles said:


> Lobbies, architectural highlights, general lighting - anything that uses a good old fashioned light bulb - will eventually be subject to the great ban (including, much to my dismay, my reading light at home - CFL's trigger migraines). I personally believe that Flourescent lights will eventually fall prey to the ban as well.


 
Fear not. I believe the major manufacturers have, or soon will, introduced halogen replacements for the old, standard A19 and A21 lamps. The increase in efficiency will be enough to meet the requirements, and only a bit more expensive. As an example, a 40 Watt halogen might be as bright as a conventional 60 Watt bulb, but without the negatives of compact fluorescent.


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## jwl868 (Sep 7, 2010)

Another aspect of fluorescent lamps (and other lamps that contain mercury) is that businesses must manage and dispose of these types of lamps according to the USEPA Universal Waste hazardous waste rules (40 CFR 273). Some states even require that “low-mercury” fluorescent lamps be managed according to these rules.

See

Universal Wastes | Hazardous Waste | Wastes | US EPA



Joe


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## derekleffew (Sep 7, 2010)

FMEng said:


> Fear not. I believe the major manufacturers have, or soon will, introduced halogen replacements for the old, standard A19 and A21 lamps. ...


Threads:
http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/...ghams-new-project-make-better-light-bulb.html
http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/lighting-electrics/20077-discontinuation-halogen-lamps-_.html
From previously cited http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/lighting-electrics/5079-future-interesting.html :

gafftaper said:


> ...In related news, a new patent application for an incandescent lamp “incorporating extended high-reflectivity IR coating” was made public recently. U.S. Patent Application 20060226777, filed on October 12, 2006 by David Cunningham, describes an incandescent lamp that has a luminous efficacy of as high as 80 lumens per watt, which is similar to that of a CFL. The concept behind the lamp is essentially to deposit highly reflective coatings on the glass envelope that reflect almost all of the infrared (heat) that is generated by the filament back to the source and allowing only the visible light to exit the envelope. The reflected heat effectively reduces the amount of electrical energy required to produce the same amount of visible light. Cunningham is the inventor of the optical system in the Source Four, one of the most popular and successful theatrical lighting products to date. ...


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## zmb (Sep 7, 2010)

FMEng said:


> Fear not. I believe the major manufacturers have, or soon will, introduced halogen replacements for the old, standard A19 and A21 lamps. The increase in efficiency will be enough to meet the requirements, and only a bit more expensive. As an example, a 40 Watt halogen might be as bright as a conventional 60 Watt bulb, but without the negatives of compact fluorescent.



Home Depot has been selling LED replacements under the EcoSmart brand that have a 3000 K color temperature, 87 CRI, and dim. I haven't used them but the online reviews seem to be good.
Lighting & Fans - Light Bulbs - LED - EcoSmart at The Home Depot


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## jonliles (Sep 8, 2010)

zmb said:


> Home Depot has been selling LED replacements under the EcoSmart brand [/url]



At $45 ea...can't afford to replace them (especailly 18 of the indoor par38's). As time marches by, price and cost continue to drop. Even at $45, they are much cheaper than they were just a few years ago.


> I was with you right up to the zero water toilets.



Their not the best thing in the world, but they are a move in the right direction. Personally, I like the rain water collection for grey water use (toilet flushing) - though they should put a little bleach in the resevoir to kill off the algae growth.


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## mstaylor (Sep 8, 2010)

I do like the idea of rain collection for grey water, it is something I haven't seen.


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## derekleffew (Sep 9, 2010)

Shawncfer said:


> ...I'm having to write a paper about how to be more "eco-friendly" in the theatre. ...


You may find this site beneficial: Broadway Green Alliance .


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## tjrobb (Sep 13, 2010)

Might want to do more research on white / reflective roofs. Here in the snow belt (well, most places above roughly climate zone 4) a black or gray roof tends to be more efficient. Seems we need heat more than we need cooling and the white roof just makes it worse. Plus, the maintenance staff will like not having to wear sunglasses or slip on ice.

As for fluorescent & being green - I am in a "as the ballasts die" replacement of old 96W 8' T12 lamps with 32W 4' T8 lamps (going from 2 lamps to 4), each time a T12 dies we save 60W with it's replacement. Oh, and we get more light, and less of it is green (those old T12's had a large chunk of mercury in them). Very nice indeed.

Lastly, graywater. I believe any building using a graywater system should / does have a mini wastewater treatment plant to kill the "worst of the worst" in the water. Doesn't make the water safe to drink, but I also means that your toilet won't become sentient.


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## jonliles (Sep 13, 2010)

tjrobb said:


> Might want to do more research on white / reflective roofs. Here in the snow belt (well, most places above roughly climate zone 4) a black or gray roof tends to be more efficient. Seems we need heat more than we need cooling and the white roof just makes it worse.



I was referring to planting green - not green color. Here in the South even reflected light generates heat in the local biosphere. As older buildings are rehabbed, several owners are investigationg planted roofs - insulation valkue, absorbs light/heat, absorbs water reducing run off, etc...


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## shiben (Sep 15, 2010)

tjrobb said:


> Might want to do more research on white / reflective roofs. Here in the snow belt (well, most places above roughly climate zone 4) a black or gray roof tends to be more efficient. Seems we need heat more than we need cooling and the white roof just makes it worse. Plus, the maintenance staff will like not having to wear sunglasses or slip on ice.
> 
> As for fluorescent & being green - I am in a "as the ballasts die" replacement of old 96W 8' T12 lamps with 32W 4' T8 lamps (going from 2 lamps to 4), each time a T12 dies we save 60W with it's replacement. Oh, and we get more light, and less of it is green (those old T12's had a large chunk of mercury in them). Very nice indeed.
> 
> Lastly, graywater. I believe any building using a graywater system should / does have a mini wastewater treatment plant to kill the "worst of the worst" in the water. Doesn't make the water safe to drink, but I also means that your toilet won't become sentient.


 
Some really cool grey water recycling systems actually dump the waste water through a specially designed swamp that can go inside your house. This filters the water, makes it very safe to use, and also increases the oxygen content in the building. 

As for green roofs, check out what some people do. On some buildings, they actually cover the roof in dirt and plant grass, bushes and small trees up on there. Its really cool, makes the building more energy efficient, absorbs a lot of the water, and looks awesome.


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## jonliles (Sep 15, 2010)

shiben said:


> ...On some buildings, they actually cover the roof in dirt and plant grass, bushes and small trees up on there. Its really cool, makes the building more energy efficient, absorbs a lot of the water, and looks awesome.



That's precisely what I was referring to. Carraba's family (Italian) Restaurant does that with all of their buildings. That is at least the 1st example off of the top of my head. I know I have seen more in NYC & London.


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## peacefulone61 (Sep 15, 2010)

*How to be Green*

So this year the school that I am working at has decided to take on a Green Initiative and have been asked to make the shop and the stage as green as possible. I have been looking at many options but really do not have a clue. I was wondering what everyone else is doing to be environmentally friendly.


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## ship (Sep 17, 2010)

*Re: How to be Green*

Imagine this though.. I pay over a thousand dollars per 55 gallon drum for disposed of both incandescent and arc lamps. Spoil a bunch of PAR 64 incandescent lamps, and you had at best break them up as small as possible in properly disposing of them or you will pay by volume the same charge as for a moving light lamp that is bad for disposal. 
A drum of flourescent lamps is a bit cheaper - imagine that even given incandescent lamps in comparison. Explosive grade xenon lamps I dispose of in the same drum as mover light lamps - this in wrapping them in protective covering. I cover the explosives drum differently than the incandescent drum in concern.

For some reason, proper disposal of incandescent lamps for recycling purposes isn’t cheaper than for other lamps - my CFL’s are in with the moving light lamps, yet no cheaper for a drum of incandescent lamps.. Probably got a bad deal in only one recycling supplier.

Beyond these concepts of “proper disposal” for all moving light lamps, I believe we still pay a tax or terriff on the import for them. This in concept is to pay for what’s thrown away in the trash as opposed to “proper” disposal of them. Double taxed on moving light lamps bought if properly disposed of???

What would moving light lamp prices look like if one could assure a program of proper lamp disposal paid thru the nose of were that option available for initial cost of the lamp?

This question not covered in the industry but also something paid for two times both for buying the lamps, and in not simply throwing them out, paying again for proper disposal of them. 

That's more what I deal with in having to pay for disposal - proper disposal. A few $K a year given I'm already paying a terriff for disposal in buying lamps, to properly do so again after the lamp is spent. Politics as detail well beyond "legal lamps" one can still use and in properly disposing of even the incandescent versionions.. very espensive to properly recycle.


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## zmb (Sep 23, 2010)

FYI, GE has started ceasing production of reguloar (no halogen) incadescent lamps due to both government regulation and consumer habits.
msnbc.com Video Player


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## ruinexplorer (Sep 24, 2010)

Something else to consider are the reports coming out of Canada regarding CFLs and dirty power. This article talks about the probable health issues, but most of us have also had experience with dirty power and electronics.


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## WooferHound (Sep 27, 2010)

It seems that there are businesses that are selling incandescent bulbs as heaters to get around the laws banning incandescent lights.
Slashdot Idle Story | Selling Incandescent Light Bulbs As Heating Device


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## MNicolai (Sep 27, 2010)

ruinexplorer said:


> Something else to consider are the reports coming out of Canada regarding CFLs and dirty power. This article talks about the probable health issues, but most of us have also had experience with dirty power and electronics.


 
I stopped reading after this point:


> ...Not all energy efficient bulbs are the same. Some do not contribute to dirty electricity and do not produce radio frequencies and this includes a few compact fluorescent lights, some LEDs (light emitting dioxides)...


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## zmb (Sep 27, 2010)

WooferHound said:


> It seems that there are businesses that are selling incandescent bulbs as heaters to get around the laws banning incandescent lights.
> Slashdot Idle Story | Selling Incandescent Light Bulbs As Heating Device


 
You already see them in food warmer displays, serves two functions.


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