# Church Fellowship Hall Sound System



## cj12 (Jun 9, 2013)

I have been assigned with researching and installing a sound system for my churches fellowship hall that is being remodeled. We are wanting some Type of system that we could hook multiple mics or a mixer into. Does anyone have any ideas on speakers or amps? We have a 3" gap above our ceiling. I am trying to keep it on a low budget but I want quality products.


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## JLNorthGA (Jun 9, 2013)

cj12 said:


> I have been assigned with researching and installing a sound system for my churches fellowship hall that is being remodeled. We are wanting some Type of system that we could hook multiple mics or a mixer into. Does anyone have any ideas on speakers or amps? We have a 3" gap above our ceiling. I am trying to keep it on a low budget but I want quality products.



More data. How big is your fellowship hall (width, length, height). What sort of finish to the walls, ceiling, floors? What do you propose to use the system for? Is it for speakers, musical groups or what? Do you want to mount your speakers on the walls, in the ceiling or what?

Can't give recommendations without knowing all this (and probably more). It sounds like you want it to be low budget, so y'all probably don't want to pay for a consultant (which you really might want to do anyway).


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## cj12 (Jun 9, 2013)

Thanks For a Quick Reply. I don't know that much yet. I just found out today and they are are getting me more info. All I know is they are putting acoustic paneling on the walls and the ceiling. I have tied to get them to get a consultant but they say it is to much. My Budget is around $1,000. The room is a octagon and it is about 75' across.


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## JLNorthGA (Jun 10, 2013)

cj12 said:


> Thanks For a Quick Reply. I don't know that much yet. I just found out today and they are are getting me more info. All I know is they are putting acoustic paneling on the walls and the ceiling. I have tied to get them to get a consultant but they say it is to much. My Budget is around $1,000. The room is a octagon and it is about 75' across.



How high is the ceiling? What are your intended uses? What would like for this sound system to do for you? How high of a quality do you want?

As an example, you can get a portable PA system that you tuck away into storage when done. Cost is say - $600. For that you get an inexpensive powered mixer, two monitor speakers, two main speakers, some microphones and cabling. For a bit more - say $800 you can get a Yamaha portable PA.

What will it sound like - well that's the problem. It will sound like a portable PA. Fine for some applications and poor for others.


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## museav (Jun 10, 2013)

cj12 said:


> Thanks For a Quick Reply. I don't know that much yet. I just found out today and they are are getting me more info. All I know is they are putting acoustic paneling on the walls and the ceiling. I have tied to get them to get a consultant but they say it is to much. My Budget is around $1,000. The room is a octagon and it is about 75' across.


I agree that you probably want to start with defining how you want to be able to use the system. What do you want to do with it, the type of events does it need to support, who needs to be able to operate it, etc.? Is this be a portable system or one permanently installed in the space? And as already mentioned, it would also help to know things like the ceiling height and ceiling construction.

If it is to be an installed system then do you know if there has been any related provisions or planning included such as a location for equipment, any power or conduit, etc.? Where are they in the renovation work, is it still possible to run cable in walls or are you already to where that would require tearing open finished walls? Is there any existing work being reused such as connections on wall plates?

What is your experience with audio system installations? Is this something you do for a living or do you do something related or is it a completely new adventure? Do you have the tools and skills for aspects such as soldering and/or crimping terminations?

I'm not trying to make it sound more complicated than it might be but without knowing the actual goals and expectations it's difficult to offer much input.


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## cj12 (Jun 10, 2013)

This instillation will need to be a permanent install.

The ceiling height will be about 8'. They have not started with the construction. So I am trying to get all the research products and ordered them before they start work. 

They system will many be used for speaking for example during a meeting. The power will be fin I think we might put a board and an amp in a closet right off the room. I am hopping that I can convince build and grounds commity to upgrade to a bigger mixer in the sanctuary and let me move the old one to the fellowship hall. This room never had a sound system so I am starting from scratch. All it had was one speaker in the corner from a feed from the sanctuary. I am going to go line out on that board in the sanctuary and line in on the board in the fellowship to have the feed in the fellowship hall.

I am experienced with sound system but I have never went out shopping for one. So I am in need for advice on what to buy for speakers and an amp. I am the sound manager at my school. I have soldered ends, ran cables and installed sound systems.

Thanks


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## gafftaper (Jun 10, 2013)

So this is not a room used for live music? No worship bands or choirs. Just things like classes, church meetings, a banquet, etc... No worries about lots of inputs. Just one or two mics at most?

You have another system so that you are not worried about purchasing mics, stands, cables, etc with your $1000. You only need the mixer, amp, speakers, and any cable needed to attach it all together. 

Have you considered a collection of small speakers mounted in the ceiling scattered around the room? That's a fairly common solution for a room like this. Especially with a low ceiling height. Is it a drop tile ceiling?

What are you thinking in terms of the installation of the amp/mixer? Is there a closet or some part of the room that you can mount an AMP in and then just have a small mixer out in the room? Would it be easier in terms of installation to have powered speakers (no amplifier to install just run power to the speakers and input signal from mixer). You could have a really small little mixer that you plug in somewhere discretely. 

How do you feel about dealing with the large rectangular box of a mixer with power vs a small mixer and seperate amp vs a small mixer with powered speakers?


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## JLNorthGA (Jun 10, 2013)

You say mainly for speaking during a meeting. Any other possible uses? You're only talking about several feeds at this point - a line in from the sanctuary and one line, possibly two from the fellowship hall.

Do you want installed speakers that are flush mounted into the ceiling? These are unobtrusive and are in the ceiling. At this stage of the construction, they are easy to plan for and install both the speakers and run the wire. These are suitable for speaking - but I really wouldn't use them for music. Our parish hall (aka fellowship hall) has four installed speakers - the room is about 55' x 52'. You might need the same number (or more). They aren't inexpensive for quality speakers ($180 - $270/pair). There are varieties that are less expensive - but you get what you pay for. If you go will wall mounted speakers, they can be less expensive - but they are definitely noticeable.


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## cj12 (Jun 10, 2013)

My Church has no bands. We sing everything with a piano or acoustic. All the speaker would be for is mics and on odd ocations if we have a guest speaker and they want to show a short video.
I wanted to go with flush mounded speakers in the ceiling until I found out that i will only have a 3" gap between the old and new ceiling. Is that enough space between for a speaker? Or will I get more and better sound out of small speaker attached around the walls? I have not been told but I guess this will be a drop ceiling. I have though about putting that amp in the storage closet and stick the mixer in a cabinet off to the side. The mixer is a small 8 channel board. So it would not take up a lot of space.
The budget would have to be for the amp, speaker, and cables. I would like to add in the new board in that to but I was planing on using some of the money from this budget to get it as it is $500. We would do with the mics we have now and maybe add some wireless latter down in the future depending if we need them.
I cant do powered speaker because I i cant add electrical because our building permit for the remodel notes that we cant do electrical but we have plenty on power where I would put that amp and mixer.


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## gafftaper (Jun 11, 2013)

They make speakers that are designed to fit right into a drop ceiling panel. You just cut a hole in the material with a saw and the speaker goes in, similar to a car stereo speaker. Ceiling speakers will sound excellent for spoken word applications. They will not provide much in the way of bass for music, but that sounds like it's not a problem. I believe they can be pretty low profile, but 3" seems like it might be a little too tight. 

They also make "Pendant" style speakers which you hang around the room. Those might be a good choice to look at. 

The problem with mounting two speakers on one end of the room (besides looks) is the uneven sound distribution. You either are blasting out the front row or the people in the back are straining to hear. Ceiling mounted means nice even distribution at a perfect volume for everyone. But 3" may be so tight of a fit it won't work.


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## JLNorthGA (Jun 11, 2013)

cj12 said:


> My Church has no bands. We sing everything with a piano or acoustic. All the speaker would be for is mics and on odd ocations if we have a guest speaker and they want to show a short video.
> I wanted to go with flush mounded speakers in the ceiling until I found out that i will only have a 3" gap between the old and new ceiling. Is that enough space between for a speaker? Or will I get more and better sound out of small speaker attached around the walls? I have not been told but I guess this will be a drop ceiling. I have though about putting that amp in the storage closet and stick the mixer in a cabinet off to the side. The mixer is a small 8 channel board. So it would not take up a lot of space.



A 3" gap is a problem - if you were considering not touching the old ceiling. If you can saw holes in the old ceiling - then you may be okay. If you get some of the brands of ceiling mounted speakers, they have similar dimensions to can lights. They go up into the ceiling maybe 8" or so. The plus side on ceiling mount speakers is that they are unobtrusive, the sound is reasonable and they are out of the way. The minus side is the cost, the installation issues (8" up into the ceiling) and the lack of bass response. For your fellowship hall, you'd need (IMO) about four (possibly six) speakers - so around $540 or more for ceiling mounts of a decent quality (such as JBL). Wall mounted speakers would run you less - but you would be limited to the periphery of the room. For this type of installation, I'd bite the bullet and try to go for ceiling mounted speakers. They look better in the room. Once they are up, they aren't really noticed. Nobody is going to bump their head on a ceiling mounted speaker!


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## museav (Jun 11, 2013)

With the low ceiling height and 75' room dimensions, for speech reinforcement a distributed ceiling speaker system would be very common. However, you may need a number of speakers as people's ears would be only be about 4' when seated or 3' when standing from the ceiling, thus each speaker will cover a somewhat limited area.

There are shallow depth ceiling speakers or you could mount recessed wall mount speakers, which are meant to fit in standard stud depths, in the ceiling, but I would verify the ceiling construction itself. A 3" depth could make it difficult to access typical lay-in tiles so it may be something else that may be a bit more challenging to work with. And it may not be possible to cut into the old ceiling, a common construction technique is to use a continuous layer of suspended sheetrock to help obtain the required fire separation or ratings and in those cases that barrier cannot be penetrated without whatever is done providing the same separation.

Unless you have a number of other audio sources, multiple microphone inputs, etc. then do you really need a mixing console? Something like TOA Our Products | 900 Series Mixer Amplifiers with appropriate line level and microphone input modules would be more common. However, a new TOA 900 Series Mixer/Amp with a couple of mic and line level modules is apparently around $700 to $900, so a good portion of your budget. Luckily, you can often find used units, in some cases with some input modules, for under $100.

With the fact that nothing is existing then you may want to think about how you plan to address local inputs like microphones and connections for a video source. Do you plan to run cables across the floor or do you install wall plates with appropriate connections and wiring back to the mixer or mixer/amp? A few wall plates with connectors, the related cable, any associated conduit, etc. may not be that much but with a $1,000 total budget it could be a factor.


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## cj12 (Jun 12, 2013)

I can't go into the ceiling because it is the cement floor for the sanctuary above. What are some small form factor speaker for the selling? The planning comity just email me and they said that the ceiling gap might be bigger. They are going to tell me on Sunday. If that wont work what do you think of these small speaker to put on the wall? Or is there something better and cheaper. I want to try to keep them small. They can't be power speaker because I am not allowed to do any electrical work per the building permit. I will place the amp by an electrical outlet. Also what amp should I get?

JBL Control 23 3.5IN 2-Way In/Out Spkr Pr | GuitarCenter


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## Aman121 (Jun 12, 2013)

cj12 said:


> I can't go into the ceiling because it is the cement floor for the sanctuary above. What are some small form factor speaker for the selling? The planning comity just email me and they said that the ceiling gap might be bigger. They are going to tell me on Sunday. If that wont work what do you think of these small speaker to put on the wall? Or is there something better and cheaper. I want to try to keep them small. They can't be power speaker because I am not allowed to do any electrical work per the building permit. I will place the amp by an electrical outlet. Also what amp should I get?
> 
> JBL Control 23 3.5IN 2-Way In/Out Spkr Pr | GuitarCenter




There's no sense in trying to find an amp until you know what speakers you are installing and how they are going to be wired. However, since it seems that a distributed speaker system would work best in your space, your probably looking at an amp that supports 70v distributed systems. Since your input requirements are small, an integrated mixer amp such as the TOA amps museav mentioned would probaby be the best choice.


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## museav (Jun 13, 2013)

cj12 said:


> that wont work what do you think of these small speaker to put on the wall? Or is there something better and cheaper. I want to try to keep them small. They can't be power speaker because I am not allowed to do any electrical work per the building permit. I will place the amp by an electrical outlet. Also what amp should I get?
> 
> JBL Control 23 3.5IN 2-Way In/Out Spkr Pr | GuitarCenter


If I understand correctly, the room is an octagon 75' across with an 8' ceiling, so where do you plan on putting speakers on the walls so that a) they can be clearly heard in the center without blowing out the people at the perimeter, b) the speakers dont have much of their energy bouncing off the ceiling, c) you don't have people hearing sound from multiple speakers at significantly different distances and d) people don't perceive the sound as coming from beside or behind them rather than from the source? Basically, I envision you getting sound from multiple side wall speakers but not necessarily intelligible sound compared to distributed ceiling speakers or even simply a speaker or two at the front of the room.


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## cj12 (Jun 13, 2013)

As I think about it I think it is about 60' not 75'. I was thinking of putting 2 speakers on the front wall and in the middle of the room there is an I beam that will be sticking down a couple of inches so I though about putting 2 more evenly spaced out one the back side of the I Beam projecting to the other side. I would put the 2 frount speaker on one channel and the 2 back speakers on another so I could control the zones. What are your thoughts? Attached is a drawing if I did not explain it enough. Drawing not to scale.


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## JLNorthGA (Jun 14, 2013)

cj12 said:


> As I think about it I think it is about 60' not 75'. I was thinking of putting 2 speakers on the front wall and in the middle of the room there is an I beam that will be sticking down a couple of inches so I though about putting 2 more evenly spaced out one the back side of the I Beam projecting to the other side. I would put the 2 frount speaker on one channel and the 2 back speakers on another so I could control the zones. What are your thoughts? Attached is a drawing if I did not explain it enough. Drawing not to scale.


If you get a reasonable powered mixer, it would have four (or more) channels out. Each speaker could be on a separate channel.


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## museav (Jun 14, 2013)

cj12 said:


> As I think about it I think it is about 60' not 75'. I was thinking of putting 2 speakers on the front wall and in the middle of the room there is an I beam that will be sticking down a couple of inches so I though about putting 2 more evenly spaced out one the back side of the I Beam projecting to the other side. I would put the 2 frount speaker on one channel and the 2 back speakers on another so I could control the zones. What are your thoughts? Attached is a drawing if I did not explain it enough. Drawing not to scale.


If the ceiling is 8' high and the speakers are below the ceiling then they're what, maybe 3' or less above the people's ears? That means the speakers probably won't cover a very large area evenly and there will be pretty extreme differences between the sound levels for those located right in front of the speakers and those located some distance away, including off to the sides. Stand directly in front of a speaker just 3' or 4' away and listen to something then move 15' off to the side and 15' to the side and 30' back while continuing to listen, that's a rough analogy to what you would have for your direct coverage.

30' difference between the front and rear speakers without being able to delay any of the speakers means people hearing sound from both may perceive the further set as an echo. You'd also have people in the middle of the room probably perceiving the source of sound as the second set of speakers rather than being from up front.

It seems to me that the basic issue is that you apparently have a budget that was randomly assigned rather than one representing what is a realistic cost for what should be done. If you have to work within that budget then given the space and conditions you will have to make some significant compromises. It may come down to not being able to be too concerned about coverage, intelligibility and so on and simply doing something that is at least minimally functional and reliable.


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## cj12 (Jun 14, 2013)

What could work better if I go a little over my budget? I am not looking for the best sound system in the world.


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## JLNorthGA (Jun 15, 2013)

Given the constraints of your situation - you can't mount ceiling speakers - you probably need to mount a fair number of smaller speakers. That way you don't have to up the volume on any particular set of speakers.

Look at indoor/outdoor speakers. JBL Control 23T 2-Way 3-1/2" Indoor/Outdoor Speaker Pair White | Musician's Friend
They are small, somewhat unobtrusive, come with mounting hardware and can be painted. Rather than four speakers with lots of volume, you would have more (say as many as eight, but at least six). The list of these is $218 a pair - so we're talking $654 or more for the speakers (possibly $872). After you add in the wire you're talking more. Add in an amplifier, you are talking still more. I'm not saying these are the speakers you should get - I'm saying this might be an alternative way to look at things.


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## cj12 (Jun 15, 2013)

JLNorthGA said:


> Given the constraints of your situation - you can't mount ceiling speakers - you probably need to mount a fair number of smaller speakers. That way you don't have to up the volume on any particular set of speakers.
> 
> Look at indoor/outdoor speakers. JBL Control 23T 2-Way 3-1/2" Indoor/Outdoor Speaker Pair White | Musician's Friend
> They are small, somewhat unobtrusive, come with mounting hardware and can be painted. Rather than four speakers with lots of volume, you would have more (say as many as eight, but at least six). The list of these is $218 a pair - so we're talking $654 or more for the speakers (possibly $872). After you add in the wire you're talking more. Add in an amplifier, you are talking still more. I'm not saying these are the speakers you should get - I'm saying this might be an alternative way to look at things.



Thanks for the advice. What is the difference between the JBL Control 23T and the JBL Contol 23(like the one from guitar center)? The only thing that I could notice is that the on 23 one did not mention anything about a 70V/100V system and it was $20 cheaper. Does that mean that the 23 one works with normal amps?


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## JLNorthGA (Jun 15, 2013)

cj12 said:


> Thanks for the advice. What is the difference between the JBL Control 23T and the JBL Contol 23(like the one from guitar center)? The only thing that I could notice is that the on 23 one did not mention anything about a 70V/100V system and it was $20 cheaper. Does that mean that the 23 one works with normal amps?



You would probably want the Control 23. They have an 8 ohm impedance and look like they would work with a regular PA system amp.


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## cj12 (Jun 15, 2013)

Can I chain 4 of them together(200W combined) on each channel and get like a 300W per channel amp? Does that sound doable? How much extra can I go over by does it matter? Should I connect them all together in a chain, connect 2 together then go back to amp or each one back to amp?


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