# How to deal with people who insist that knotting cables is correct



## eat_those_lemons (Jan 22, 2017)

Hello! I am totally new to Control booth, one of my colleagues used to be on here on the time so I figured you guys would be a good resource to ask.

I was one of two people who did lights and sound for the high school that I went to (was k -12 so ended up being a technician for 5 years)

The other guy that I worked with was very particular about doing things correctly, ie to code, being safe, O designing sets and such with ample safety factors etc.

When he was training me he took a lot of time to teach me to over and under all of the cables and then to tie them off with some string (we used some paracord pieces)

I have since moved on but I am still occasionally called and asked if I can help by the person in charge of the control booth. When I was helping today one of the people who they had hired or was a volunteer (a parent I believe not sure) to help with the technical part of the theater was winding cables by just twisting them till they looped and then tieing them in knots instead of using the string.

I then was very confused and was asking him about it and said that I did not agree with that method since I thought it put to much strain on the cable, he got very angry and said "As long as you don't kink the cable it is fine and you need to respect your elders!" (I'm in my early 20's and he is probably late 30's) He then talked about how he 'works for an audio company so he knows what he is doing.

How should I respond to that? Based on what I was taught by my co-worker (who doesn't work there either anymore) You should always over and under and definitely not tie knots with the cable to hold it together. Should I just let it go? Is he actually correct?

TL;DR: Asked sometimes to go back and help my old high school with tech stuff for plays a new person who I assume is a parent was winding cables by twisting them till the looped and then held it all together by using the end of the cable to tie a knot

When I was questioning why he was doing that and that that is not how I was taught he got super angry.
-How should I respond to that? Should I just let it be? Was he actually correct?

Thanks guys!

(I attached the best picture I could find that gave an example of how the cables were being tied up, it is close to how he was doing it just not quite as tight as these ropes)


----------



## porkchop (Jan 22, 2017)

Since it's not your cable to maintain and/or replace I'd let it go. Perhaps mention it to the person in charge, but I wouldn't make that large a deal of it.

If it was my cable... dismemberment seems fitting I suppose.... In all seriousness I've kicked stagehands off of electrics calls if they can't handle the my equipment in a satisfactory manor, but again I was the one responsible for the equipment not just another stagehand on the call.


----------



## techieman33 (Jan 22, 2017)

I've seen a lot of companies that do just that with the mic and dmx cables. Just like everything else in this field there are at least a dozen ways to do it, and a dozen different names for it. If it's their gear I'll do it how they want it done, if it's my gear then I'll say something and have them do it my way. Is over/under and using tie line or velcro wraps better for the cable? Probably. I think whatever method is used consistency is the most important thing. There will be a lot less stress on a cable that's always coiled the same way then one that gets coiled in a dozen different ways depending on the day.


----------



## JD (Jan 22, 2017)

Cable life is drastically shortened, especially if there is a foil shield as many DMX cables have. The worst part is that the shield / pin 1 drain will be what fails, usually in an intermittent fashion and the diagnostics will waste a ton of setup time, or it will wait and fail right in the middle of a performance. In a way it reminds me of wrapping up Christmas lights in that a few second are saved now at the expense of hours of work later. 
In addition, since the damage takes so long to show up, the offending person may be long gone by the time cables start failing. Thus, they will never know they did something wrong.


----------



## eat_those_lemons (Jan 22, 2017)

Thanks for your responses!

From what I understand the summary is that you guys are saying that it is a bad way to wrap a cable but that since it isn't my cable or my duty to replace it I should not worry about it other than telling the person in charge of the control booth my opinion/reasons for why it should not be wrapped that way and let them deal with if they want to talk to that stage hand.

Is that a correct understanding of what you guys were saying?

And thanks again for your guys help!


----------



## Footer (Jan 22, 2017)

I occasionally do a quick overhand knot on XLR cable. This is under one of two circumstances.... first being a show that is carrying cable and does not have ties on stuff and has run out of E-tape. The other is when we are in the midst of a changeover and trying to get gear off stage as fast as possible. Its faster to throw a quick overhand knot then it is to find tie line while on a dark stage that you are trying to turn over to the headliner. If it happens to our cable we re-wrap it in the shop before it gets stored. 

Is it ideal? No. Is it better then a rats nest? Yes.


----------



## variable (Jan 22, 2017)

The guy got mad because he's probably been told a hundred times by a hundred professionals not to wrap his cable that way. You were looking out for a school you've spent a lot of time at and have a lot of loyalty invested in and this guy was treating the schools equipment with indifference. It may or may not have been your place to speak up (I think you acted appropriately), but his response tells me that he realized that we was in the wrong but instead of being adult enough to admit it to a person younger than himself he decided to lash out. 

But unfortunately, unless there's a higher authority you can appeal to the answer above is correct. Let it go, do your own cable the right way and hope never to cross paths with the jerk again.


----------



## porkchop (Jan 22, 2017)

eat_those_lemons said:


> Thanks for your responses!
> 
> From what I understand the summary is that you guys are saying that it is a bad way to wrap a cable but that since it isn't my cable or my duty to replace it I should not worry about it other than telling the person in charge of the control booth my opinion/reasons for why it should not be wrapped that way and let them deal with if they want to talk to that stage hand.
> 
> ...



Yes, exactly. There are other times, like when a persons safety is at risk, to make a big fuss over someone doing their job improperly.


----------



## Lextech (Jan 23, 2017)

I try and have tie line on all my cables. That being said I have worked for sound companies and theaters where an overhand knot is normal for flexible cable such as mic cable. Don't make it tight and it's fine. Stiffer cables, like certain DMX brands, I won't do that to for the reason mentioned. As for velcro, anyone who likes it for mic cables hasn't done festivals.....


----------



## Malabaristo (Jan 23, 2017)

This is actually a really great learning experience for you: not about cables, but about people. 

In the first situation you were not only taught how to do something, but the person teaching gave a solid explanation of why that was the best approach. In the second situation you were told something with the sole justification being that the person doing the telling was older than you. Only one of those people was worth listening to, and now you have a better sense of how to tell which is which.

Disclaimer: not every explanation that sounds plausible is actually based on reality... your next lesson should be figuring out how to spot the convincing fakes.


----------



## RickR (Jan 24, 2017)

I'll add one other thought, that has nothing to do with cables. Why did both of these people get mad?

One explanation has been offered, and our first thought in such a situation is "what's their problem?" There is another possibility and one that was hard for me to learn. Was there something you did to set them off? Before you decided to come here you've probably given it some thought, but it's worth a second or third. It's very hard to teach someone if they are defensive or insulted. Their level of arrogance can make that very hard to avoid. One must always have a willing student if they are to learn.


----------



## gafftaper (Jan 30, 2017)

eat_those_lemons said:


> From what I understand the summary is that you guys are saying that it is a bad way to wrap a cable



I disagree that it's a bad way to wrap a cable. Over Under is more convenient in order to do a stage throw to uncoil, but there is nothing wrong with a straight coiled cable that doesn't alternate over under, as long as it's gently rolled as you coil it into a nice relaxed circle and not kinked.

As for taking the entire coil and making a loose knot out of the whole thing, It's not how I would do it, but I've seen plenty of pros who really know their stuff do it that way. Again it's a loose knot, not pulled tight to the point of kinking.

When it's your theater you can have it done your way. When it's a facility with no one person in charge it's better to let it go and not risk damaging your career by developing a reputation as "that know it all disrespectful kid". The best way to handle it would have been to say, excuse me, I've always been taught to coil it this way and use the string. I'm not familiar with that style of coil, is there at trick to not damaging the cable? Honestly asking the question because you never know what you might learn. If you decide the guy doesn't know what he's talking about, let it go. You are much better off having him think of you as "that young kid who was interested in learning from me".


----------



## RonHebbard (Jan 30, 2017)

RickR said:


> I'll add one other thought, that has nothing to do with cables. Why did both of these people get mad?
> 
> One explanation has been offered, and our first thought in such a situation is "what's their problem?" There is another possibility and one that was hard for me to learn. Was there something you did to set them off? Before you decided to come here you've probably given it some thought, but it's worth a second or third. It's very hard to teach someone if they are defensive or insulted. Their level of arrogance can make that very hard to avoid. One must always have a willing student if they are to learn.


I've always found it easiest to learn with my ears open and my mouth closed.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.


----------



## MikeJ (Feb 7, 2017)

Footer said:


> I occasionally do a quick overhand knot on XLR cable. This is under one of two circumstances.... first being a show that is carrying cable and does not have ties on stuff and has run out of E-tape. The other is when we are in the midst of a changeover and trying to get gear off stage as fast as possible. Its faster to throw a quick overhand knot then it is to find tie line while on a dark stage that you are trying to turn over to the headliner. If it happens to our cable we re-wrap it in the shop before it gets stored.
> 
> Is it ideal? No. Is it better then a rats nest? Yes.



Also, tieline is a little silly on 5' cables, we have 20-year-old xlr that has always had an overhand knot, and still works fine. With stiffer 5' cables I will do a quick wrap like you do with rigging steel.


gafftaper said:


> I disagree that it's a bad way to wrap a cable. Over Under is more convenient in order to do a stage throw to uncoil, but there is nothing wrong with a straight coiled cable that doesn't alternate over under, as long as it's gently rolled as you coil it into a nice relaxed circle and not kinked.


 Agreed, but depends on the situation. My rule is over-under any individual cable gets over-undered. Straight coils pulled along the floor, then raised up on a batten or truss, makes soca into a $400 phone chord. Now for looms that go into a case or feeder cable that you always have to uncoil as you go, straight coiling is usually better/easier, and generally, does not have a detrimental effect on cable life. I only take an under on a loom or feeder when it's what the cable "wants to do."


----------



## RonHebbard (Feb 8, 2017)

MikeJ said:


> Also, tieline is a little silly on 5' cables, we have 20-year-old xlr that has always had an overhand knot, and still works fine. With stiffer 5' cables I will do a quick wrap like you do with rigging steel.
> 
> 
> Agreed, but depends on the situation. My rule is over-under any individual cable gets over-undered. Straight coils pulled along the floor, then raised up on a batten or truss, makes soca into a $400 phone chord. Now for looms that go into a case or feeder cable that you always have to uncoil as you go, straight coiling is usually better/easier, and generally, does not have a detrimental effect on cable life. I only take an under on a loom or feeder when it's what the cable "wants to do."


Any moment we're going to swerve into the "Which end of your XLR-3 M/F jumpers receive the hasty overhand knot beats a rat's nest, the male or the female and why argument" to which I've ALWAYS been in the "male end of coursre camp" because the tiny 'pig's tail' that eventually develops NEVER looks attractive when displayed immediately below the star's hand-held vocal mic on stage let alone in the video closeups. Leave the little partial-kink that's going to be with you for evermore out of site on the floor somewhere other than where it's about to become that distracting annoyance on the money end of your mic cables.
Yeah, yeah; let the stoning begin. I'll assume my properly respectful stance again and prepare to receive my floggings.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.


----------



## Chris15 (Feb 9, 2017)

RonHebbard said:


> Any moment we're going to swerve into the "Which end of your XLR-3 M/F jumpers receive the hasty overhand knot beats a rat's nest, the male or the female and why argument" to which I've ALWAYS been in the "male end of coursre camp" because the tiny 'pig's tail' that eventually develops NEVER looks attractive when displayed immediately below the star's hand-held vocal mic on stage let alone in the video closeups. Leave the little partial-kink that's going to be with you for evermore out of site on the floor somewhere other than where it's about to become that distracting annoyance on the money end of your mic cables.
> Yeah, yeah; let the stoning begin. I'll assume my properly respectful stance again and prepare to receive my floggings.
> Toodleoo!
> Ron Hebbard.


Female end. Otherwise you end up kinking the heatshrink over the label that always goes at the male end for that same out of sight reason...


----------



## StradivariusBone (Feb 9, 2017)

We keep this prominently displayed on our "meme wall" in the shop:


----------



## EdSavoie (Feb 9, 2017)

The first thing we teach new students when they join crew at my school is wrapping cables.

Over-under of course, but every now and then we catch a new student trying to wrap around the arm...


----------



## RonHebbard (Feb 9, 2017)

Chris15 said:


> Female end. Otherwise you end up kinking the heat shrink over the label that always goes at the male end for that same out of sight reason...


All my cables 10' and longer are neatly labelled on both ends with with length, owner and a unique numeric identifier in P-Touch under clear heat shrink. The labels are short enough and my overhand knots loose enough that I haven't had any problems. Dependent upon a cable's jacket (Belden's tough brown Hypalon jacketed 8402 for example) given enough years, oils from within the jacket's construction yellow the clear heat shrink somewhat but legibility has never been a problem. Before the invention of P-Touch I was neatly applying a row of small, black on yellow, Brady markers under clear heat shrink. Again no problems. When I opted to convert some of my older cables from Brady to P-Touch, I carefully slit the heat shrink and was amazed to discover how essentially welded the Brady's had become to the Belden 8412 black jackets. I didn't want to damage the jackets and it took some serious effort with the corner of a single-edge razor blade to lift a corner of a Brady enough to pull it from the cable. I always found labeling both ends worthwhile even with short cables in busy areas like cabling up a drum kit into a nearby sub snake. Here're are examples of my labeling: 10 Ron 1, 10 Ron 2, 50 Ron 1; length in feet, owner, unique numeric identifier. In my latter years I had use for 8' cables and assembled a group of 8 at 8'. My XLR-3 jumpers ranged from 8' to 125'. If you have to run through the seating in an arena, not having connectors underfoot along the way eliminates potential problem points. I found having duplicate length cables in black and brown jackets useful for keeping track of left and right in stereo applications. My labels never appeared distracting or offensive even when IMAG is blown up enough to count nose hairs.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.


----------



## RonHebbard (Feb 9, 2017)

EdSavoie said:


> The first thing we teach new students when they join crew at my school is wrapping cables.
> 
> Over-under of course, but every now and then we catch a new student trying to wrap around the arm...


Is their first warning a simple flogging or do you proceed directly to public amputation warning others by example? 
With an abundant supply of new students arriving annually, you may be able to afford to slaughter one every now and again. ;^)
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.


----------



## TimMc (Feb 26, 2017)

We store our mic cables on repurposed firehose reels. Some folks think this is bad because it puts strain on connectors from both the radius and from the tension of paying out or reeling in the cables. I think most of our termination failures occur because stagehands just pull on the cables when they get caught on set pieces, backline equipment or other objects. We own close to 1000 mic cables and typically have <dozen awaiting repairs. That's not too bad, actually.

As for the knot... we do those on the male XLR end for temporary storage or for a special length that doesn't go on a cable reel. Long lengths (100ft or more) get tie line (unglazed) and NEVER get velcro tabs. Like the knot, the tie line goes on the male XLR end of the cable.

For the OP, I think the comment about "respecting" ones elders was condescending and is properly met with no response at all. I'm about to hit age 60 and the manner in which I treat equipment and people comes from years of experience but I'd never presume my method is superior simply because that method is old school.


----------

