# building dry ice fog machine



## godd2

hello....Next year my school is planning on doing Les Mis for the musical...therefore i am going to have to try to come up with some fog. Right now I am leaning on building 2 machines out of metal trash cans. I figure i need to make the lid sit on top more snuggly than normal but then build in escape valves so pressure doesnt build up.

My question is on whether or not i need a fan unit inside it to make the fog come out better or but one on the end of tubing or what....

I guess i want the fog to be able to shoot out kinda quickly to fill that stage.

Ideas??


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## Van

Somebody's not using their freind the search button!


There are multiple threads on here about construction of and implementation of Dry Ice fog machines. I suggest using a 55 or 35 gallon drum as opposed to a trash can but I guess a trash can would work. It's much easier to mount hot water heatre elements to a 55 gallon drum as it has flatter/ more planar sides.


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## cprted

How about renting a fog machine? Because I really think that is the way to go.

1) You won't have to weld anything.
2) Fog juice is much easier (and cheaper) to acquire than dry ice.
3) Fog juice is much easier to store than dry ice.
4) Fog juice is safer to handle.
5) Fogger is easier to operate than the dry ice.
6) You'll have more control and consistency with a fogger.


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## godd2

will fog juice give you the same heavy look as well as not filling the air with fog? would i have to have some sort of chiller unit to make the fog stay down?


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## godd2

i agree with the 55 gal drum but i am not sure where i would get one so thus trash cans...second i didnt see anyone else asking about a fan system so that is why i did ask...but maybe the fog just rolls out quickly....i dont know.


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## derekleffew

godd2 said:


> ... I figure i need to make the lid sit on top more snuggly than normal but then build in escape valves so pressure doesnt build up.
> 
> My question is on whether or not i need a fan unit inside it to make the fog come out better or but one on the end of tubing or what....
> 
> I guess i want the fog to be able to shoot out kinda quickly to fill that stage.


The hose IS your escape valve. Yes, you need a fan, and a powerful one, usually a squirrel cage type mounted on the lid. Once the solid CO2 hits the hot water the pressure increases, then decreases rapidly after the initial burst, which is another benefit of pumping the hot water over the ice, rather than dropping it in a basket. 

As with all atmospheric effects, trial and error in the actual space, under performance conditions, is the only method for success.

A couple of good threads: http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/special-f-x/10395-dry-ice-question-4-2-million.html, http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/special-f-x/9225-dry-ice-fog-machine-tips.html, http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/special-f-x/3555-liquid-nitrogen.html. Yes, we've covered the topic a lot, but always come to very few agreements as there are too many variables. Most agree that the Peasouper, AquaFog 3300, and LN2 are all good, but pricey, solutions. See also the glossary entries for the distinctions between fog, haze, and smoke.


BillESC said:


> ...Back in the late 70's and early 80's,...We...built well over a thousand units... Our best machine was based on a 55 gallon drum and contained two 1500W 120V heater elements, a fixed galvanized basket, a domestic hot water pump and two 420cfm squirrel-cage fans. There were also three 4" PVC outlets. The machine could cover a 30' x 40' with three feet of fog in about 15 seconds.


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## godd2

i had read that entry but didnt really understand it but i think maybe i do now, so if i am correct i would put a water pump in the hot water at the bottm and then run it up onto the dry ice cage. so when the water pump is on, the fog is made. where is the exhaust tube come out then, above the ice or below?

I still dont know what a squirrel cage fan is though....

How loud are these fans?


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## BillESC

Here's a 463 CFM squirrel cage fan


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## gafftaper

I'm a little confused about your reason for making dry ice machines in the first place. I've seen the Les Mis official tour many times and it seems to me to use far more chemical fog than dry ice. I think there's a little dry ice in the prison scene and maybe some in the sewer scene. But the main point you want smoke is the battle and that's all done with chemical fog (and maybe some flash pots) no dry ice that I remember. You want smoke up in the air in the gun battle, not hugging the ground. 

Alex, when you did it did you use any dry ice?


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## godd2

interesting..i honestly have never seen it on stage...my director told me we would need these so i have started working on it....we have a problem with fog machines since our fire detectors seem to be ultra sensitive....maybe the director is thinking we can avoid the particle problem with the detectors by using dry ice.....

thanx for posting the squirel fan...does that go inside the barrel to suck gas into the tubing or outside in the gas tubing??


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## icewolf08

gafftaper said:


> Alex, when you did it did you use any dry ice?



We didn't use any Dry Ice fog in the show at all. I could see possibly using it for Javert's Suicide as it can make a pretty decent looking river, but for the rest of the show it was pretty much just running two hazers almost all the time (just not in the indoors scenes).

Consider this, the original Broadway production of _Les Miserables_ is the show that spawned the Actors Equity Association (AEA) to start to look into possible health concerns with the use of chemical fog and haze. The original production used more chemical fog and haze than any other show to that date. I don't know offhand if/how they used dry ice, but I do know that AEA does not regulate it's use like chemical fog (because it stays low to the ground and you don't breathe it unless you are in it).

On the other hand, since you are in school, you don't have to worry about AEA fog and haze guidelines, so you can run as much fog and haze as you want/can afford to. I have a feeling that the most beneficial effect for your show will be haze, and I would concentrate your funds/effort on either buying or renting a good hazer for your show. Not knowing how big your venue is, it is hard to make a great recommendation, but there are a lot of good machines out there. The Look Solutions, Unique2 is a great machine and very fluid efficient. The Le Maitre Radiance is very similar in characteristics to the Unique2. If you have the big bucks or a bigger space you might also consider the MDG Atmosphere. The Atmosphere requires a CO2 canister, so make sure that you know where you can get it filled if you choose to go this route.

If you NEED the low fog look, dry ice is a good solution. However, and this may just be my opinion, I think that the show calls more for haze and fog than for low fog.

Dry Ice is fun and building a machine can be fun and educational, however it requires a pretty big skill-set, proper tools, proper supervision (for the non-pros), and proper safety precautions. Lets just start with the well known tidbit: electricity and water don't mix well. One of the things that really gets brushed under the carpet in all the threads about making dry ice machines is the safety aspect. We are talking about working with 30-50 gallons of near boiling water, heated by electricity, on a stage with a dimming system. We are talking about then putting a dangerous compound capable of giving you near instantaneous frostbite into said water, causing the release of a dangerous gas. Anyone out there who is building their own dry ice machine, please make sure that you include appropriate fail-safe devices!


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## derekleffew

All good points, Alex, especially the safety concerns. To reiterate:

derekleffew said:


> ...Most of the 55gal drum machines I've seen use a metal milk crate as the ice basket. This creates rust. As many parts as possible should be stainless steel or other non-corrosive material.
> 
> A 55 gallon drum 2/3 full is 37 gallons of water which weighs 308 pounds. Know in advance how you're going to deal with that weight, and how to drain the water.
> 
> A 110volt heating element can take over 24 hours to bring that 37 gal. of 32°F water back to workable temperature (at least 150°F). No active heating element should ever be left unattended. Hence multiple heating elements, and 220V units of the highest wattage possible, are preferred. The heating element(s) are the least expensive component, and affect the performance the greatest.
> 
> The most important components of a machine are its safety features, which should include, but are not limited to: GFCI, thermostat, over-current protection, under/over-level water sensor, etc.
> 
> The handling, storage, and use of cryogenic chemicals is dangerous. Heed all warnings, and always use appropriate PPE. When in doubt, consult a qualified professional.
> ​




> thanx for posting the squirel fan...does that go inside the barrel to suck gas into the tubing or outside in the gas tubing??


The squirrel cage fan goes outside the barrel, usually mounted on the lid, and blows air into the drum, forcing the fog though the ducting an out onto stage.


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## Les

We rented a haze machine for ours and ran it through the entire show.


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## gafftaper

If I were you I would be talking to the local fire officials about disabling the smoke detectors in the theater and going on "fire watch". This is fairly common practice and will probably require you to have an off duty fireman on site. Then get yourself a hazer and go for it. 

Picture the scene in your mind: Here's a big gun battle, bang, boom, people die on the barricade, look at that gun fire, there goes Gavroche down, then Eponine... and here comes all the smoke from their guns, rolling down the barricade, crawling across the floor, and into the orchestra pit never more than 18" above the floor. 

Depending on where the characters die you might end up with their bodies disappearing in the pond of fog. AND you also have the possibility of them not being able to breathe for real once they are in that fog. Dry Ice fog has the nasty habit of displacing the Oxygen in the air around it... if you lay in it very long you may find yourself passing out or dead.


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## BillESC

You would mount it to the lid of the drum to force air into the machine. The resulting pressure sends the fog out the tubes.

Edit: Oops, didn't see the second page and the same answer already given.


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## Van

went overboard. It's a quick an dirty SKP but it might answer most questions. Follow Dereks caveats. The electrical should only be done by a qualified individual. Sealing everything is incredibly important. Remember water weighs approx 8 pounds a gallon. Even a little weighs a lot.



Ok I lied it's a jpg of an SKP. SKP's are being deemed invalid at the momment. I'll ask Dave if we can fix that.


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## gafftaper

Back to the original post. I question the safety of the garbage can. Seems to me metal garbage cans would be flimsy when loaded with the weight of all that water. I've seen some garbage cans where the bottom is only crimped into place not welded so it would leak. Plus you need to metal work and welding again doubt it can take that... get a steel drum. Won't cost much more and it wont crumple under the weight of 40 gallons of nearly boiling water.


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## derekleffew

godd2 said:


> i agree with the 55 gal drum but i am not sure where i would get one so thus trash cans...


Good point, gafftaper. Many years ago in Chicago, I just looked in the yellow pages, went to an industrial part of town, and was able to buy used (but clean) 55-gal. drums for I think, $5 or $10 each. Today, a quick Google search shows one vendor has them new for ~$64.

Edit: This just in. Some possibly (likely) pertinent information from the ESTA Standards Watch newsletter:

> Four ESTA Draft Standards in Public Review
> Now there are four draft standards posted for public review at http://www.esta.org/tsp/documents/public_review_docs.php.
> ...
> The fourth document, the one available for review through June 22, is:
> *BSR E1.23 - 200x, Entertainment Technology - Design and Execution of Theatrical Fog Effects*, which is a revision of the existing ANSI E1.23 - 2006 standard. The document offers advice on the planning and execution of theatrical fog effects using glycol, glycerin, or white mineral oil fogs or mists in theatres, arenas, and other places of entertainment or public assembly. The revision project is (1) to change the list of fog chemicals in the scope to better match those chemicals normally used in theatrical fog effects, and (2) to better define the qualifications of those in charge of designing and executing the effects.


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## Van

I have to agree with the Gaff and Derek, a 55 gal. drum is really the onlyway to go. A galvanized 35 gallon trashcan is usually only rolled together then hot dipped. Your only reall water seal is the zinc hot dip coating, which will deteriorate when exposed to water and the current induced by the heating elements plus the piping etc. I know that right next to the Penske place here in Portland is a 1 acre lot covered in 55 gallon drums all of which have been safely decommisioned and are ready to sell to the public. 
Be sure to know that the barrel you get is clean and safe to use. Nothing worse than starting to cut into a drum with a plasma cutter then read the sticker that say " racing fuel", 'couse then there is the other extreme where everytime we made fog it smelled like " Simulated Strawberry filling Concentrate".


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## BillESC

When we were building fog machines we ordered our 55 gallon drums lined with an epoxy phenolic compound that prevented rust. Secondly we had a bung installed at the bottom of the side. A bung allows you to install a threaded valve to which you can attach a hose for draining. 

Instead of a plastic milk crate we used a galvanized wash tub (I forget which size, but one of them fits inside exactly and can be bolted in place.) We drilled a series of 1" holes in the bottom of the tub and lined the bottom with screen to prevent small bits of dry ice from falling through.

Our "Fog-It Super" could hold 150 pounds of ice.


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## gafftaper

BillESC said:


> When we were building fog machines we ordered our 55 gallon drums lined with an epoxy phenolic compound... Our "Fog-It Super" could hold 150 pounds of ice.



For those who don't know, [user]BillESC[/user] used to have a company that made and sold their own dry ice fog machines. From what I've heard they were pretty good.


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## Van

gafftaper said:


> For those who don't know, BillESC used to have a company that made and sold their own dry ice fog machines. From what I've heard they were pretty good.


 I think I've owned a couple over the years, that's where I stole all my ideas......


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## draco17315

I understand completely, we just got done doing Les mis.....and our school has the particle detectors as well and they won't let us use fog machines either so we built 2 dry ice foggers. Here is what we did.... 

1) We took a new, 20 gallon metal trash can and lid and built a wooden base for it to sit on with casters on the bottom. This is only for mobility. 
2) We put a rim aroud the base to be able to sit the trash can fogger on the base without it sliding off, yet we could remove the can if we needed to. We used 2X4s for this rim.
3) Then we purchased a hot water tank heating element from Lowe's. I think it was around $15.00.
4) I started by using some solder to water tighten all of the seals of the trash can (any where the metal is crimped during manufacturing to piece the can together) on the outside
(if you know anyone who welds, they may be able to weld it water tight, not sure).
5) Then we lined up the heating element where we wanted it on the inside and marked the 2 holes where the mounting nuts are and the one in the center where the wires are.
6) Now we used the rubber gasket that was included and we mounted the heating element about 4 inches from the bottom of the can.
7) The inside should be water tight by using this gasket, but on the outside, once in it's final position, we used some of that plumbers putty that hardens once you mix a and
b together (again Lowes has this) and we spread that around the nuts and the areas we had made holes for the wireing and such.
8) Allow this to harden over night.
9) Now fill with water and check for any leaks. You want it to be water tight. If any leaks are found (we let it sit filled for several hours), empty, dry, and use more plumbers putty
or soilder).
10) Once water tight, we built a wooden box that the back side was cut to follow the curve of the can. We mounted this box about 4 inches from the top lip of the can, this
was used for the wiring and a safety on off key switch w/ and LED light that shows when it was on.We also installed a female 2 prong plug (from Radio shack) to be the
power source for the computer fan we used on the lid. We did this as a plug so that the lid could be unplugged and completely removed if need be.
11) You want to take the wires from the heating element and run them to the inside of your "control" box and attach an on-off toggle switch (for AC power) between these wires
and your power source which should be a heavy duty extension cord with the female end cut off.
(this allows you to turn on and off your heating element, and you may want to add another LED to show that the heating element is on becasue this gets very very hot and
will burn very easily and should never be on without being fully submersed in water!!!)
12) You also want to wire a basic on-off toggle switch between the power supply and the female plug to the fan. (I understand we aren't supposed to talk about wireing on here
so feel free to email me @ [email protected] with any questions.) But if you know a professional, have them do all the wireing.
13) Once that was all finished, we cut a hole in the lid of the can (lined up with the center of the "control box") and mounted the fan to the top of the can lid with the blades
facing in the direction that would blow air into the can, not out!
14) Now wire (or have a professional) wire the Male end of the 2 prong plug that you got at Radio Shack so that when plugged into the control box "fan switch" you can turn the
fan on or off.
15) Next we used flexable dryer vent tubing for the outlet.
(this ended up working, but it does start to come unraveled if you get the foil type....spend the extra money to get something stronger)
16) Measure and cut a hole on what will be the Front side of your trash can lid just big enough for a piece of 3" PVC pipe.
(the center of this one should be streight across from the fan hole, one on either side of the Handle of the can)
17) You want to cut a piece of this 3" PVC pipe about 6 inches in length.
18) Once your hole is cut as snug as you can for the PVC pipe, install the pipe so that 1/2 is under the lid (inside the can when the lid is closed) and 1/2 in on the outside 
(this is where you mount your exit tube).
19) Seal with plumbers putty and or caulk. Allow to dry completely.
20) use a hose clamp and attach the flexable tubbing to the 3" of PVC pipe now sticking out of the top of your can lid and tighten the hose clamp
(if you run into a problem with this, you can also use some 1" dry wall screws to secure your flexable tubing to your pvc).
21) Then we took some of that foam rubber weather strip that is sticky on one side (again from lowes), we used the 1/4 " thick, and we ran this around the inside edge of the
trash can lid near the bottom. This did work for us, but it does tend to come off every now and then, but not to bad.
22) One option to help add your dry ice to the hot water safely is to get a metal basket of some kind. Attach this to a piece of stage line (the black rope for stages with the
thin piece of cable inside) or a piece of thick wire or something strong.
23) Drill a hole in the center of your can lid, pull the rope or whatever through this hole to the top of the can and tie a good knot so that it doesn't slip back into the can.
Be sure to only give enough slack that the basket will be submerged when lowerd.
24) Then you fill your basket with dry ice with no slack in the rope and the basket close to the underside of your can lid. Close your lid and when ready, use the rope to lower
the metal basket and ice into the hot water.
25) Now you are ready to try it out. Never turn on without water in it!!!
(this is why I used a keyed safety switch so that the kids could plug it in to get ready for the show, but I had to turn the key to complete the circuit and power on the fogger)!!
26) Fill with water (the hotter you can get the faster it will heat up, but you can use cold water).
27) Check one more time for any leaks. You only need to fill the can about 5 inches over the heating element. If being used for prolonged periods of time, you may want more
water, but never go more than 1/2 way or so.
28) Turn on the power switch for the heating element and wait about 30 minutes or so until the water is nice and hot. 
(time will depend on how cold or hot your water is that you started with)
29) When the water is heated, put on your safety glasses and your safety gloves!!!!!
(dry ice is dangerous and will give you a nasty burn, yes a burn to your skin and the checmical reaction between the dry ice and the hot water is very violent).
30) Now drop in about 1 lb of dry ice to start with (adjust for your needs) and give it about 20 seconds to react then turn on the switch for the fan.
This will force fresh air into the can and in return flush out the chilled dry ice fog out the flexible vent tube and onto your stage. 

I know there are many other ways on the internet to do this, especially with how to heat your water, but I did months of research and found that if the wiring is done by a professional and everything is tested and done step by step without rushing it, for someone who needs a moveable, self heating, dry ice fogger, this is the only way to go!!! Ours worked great for 2 different shows now!!! There is also the option of renting, we found that this is way to expensive for a normal High School Production with little to no budget. I know there seem to be alot of steps, but I tried to make it as exact as I could. I even came back now that I had more time and re-organized my paragraphs...sorry. To build this fogger, it ran me around $75.00 versus the rental price for a dry ice fogger that is anywhere from $50.00 per hour to $200.00 per day. Not to mention the size and weight of these rentals.....anyway, hope this helps someone out there.... Good Luck!


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## BillESC

I'm dreaming of paragraphs.


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## BillESC

Van said:


> I think I've owned a couple over the years, that's where I stole all my ideas......




Probably... We built several thousand during the disco years. Fog-it was the brand name.

They were the machine of choice in most of the NYC clubs at the time and were distributed by Altmans, Aclone, Chicago Stage, etc.


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## draco17315

chill...(no pun intended  I was running short on time...edited the information for easier reading when I had a few minutes.....


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## draco17315

We talked to the Local fire chief who's son was in our crew along with 4 other Jr. volunteer fire fighters and the school and the schools insurance company would still not allow us to use fog machines, even the newer "water based" fluids. The fire chief even offered to have a truck outside the auditorium and the fire fighters to staff the entire run of the show at no charge to the school. There was no way that they were going to allow this. And please let me also reiterate the importance of safety when using items like this. There are always safer more perfect ways of doing things, I am not arguing that, it's just unfortunately in the world today, people need an alternative that is used properly and supervised, is just as safe and workable as something 5 times the price.


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## Van

draco17315 said:


> chill...(no pun intended  I was running short on time...edited the information for easier reading when I had a few minutes.....


 

Thank You! that gave me a headache!


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## gafftaper

I want to repeat again the safety warning that any of these home made projects involve A LOT of water that is nearly boiling in temperature and electricity. The danger potential is very high be sure to test everything thoroughly and consult an electrician if you have any questions about the wiring. Don't cut any corners. 

I would strongly advise running home made devices through a circuit that has GFCI protection. It's your best safe guard against electrocuting half the cast and crew if something goes wrong.


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## draco17315

Sure, no problem........LOL......sorry.........I will try to be better at that.....I have ADD as well so that doesn't help, my fingers can't move as fast as my brain does.......LOL....thanks for being patient, I just hope this all helps someone out there....oh and I fully agree about the GFCI switch, that is a great idea if you end up having to go the homemade route! Safety, 
safety, Safety!!!


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## kiwitechgirl

I was floor LX for a production of _Les Mis_ back in 2001 and we had the biggest dry ice machine I've ever seen - we used it in Javert's Suicide to simulate the river under the bridge, which looked stunning. That would be the only place you'd want to use it - all the rest of the smoke in the show was theatrical smoke, which rises rather than rolling along the ground. Ours was custom-built for the production - by a qualified sparky - and was fairly much what has been described earlier in the thread - a big metal drum (which had been ripped out of an old rain truck from _Singin' In The Rain_!), 3 elements, tubing, a basket to put the ice in, and a fan, housed in a big wooden box. Ours was a bit more sophisticated in that we had a thermostat in it, so you set what temperature you wanted the water at, and then it would cycle the elements on and off, like your oven, to keep the water at that temperature. Originally it used the pump-and-showerhead method (water is drawn out of the tank by a pump, and showered over the dry ice) but that never really worked for us, so we altered the machine so that the basket could be lowered into the water (external latchable arm) and it worked perfectly. It has a control panel on the back of it (recessed so it can be covered for transport) with a fan switch, indicator lights for each of the elements, a gooseneck lamp so you can see the control panel, the thermostat display and controls, and a low water indicator light. We still use the machine (although it has had a new tank - the old one rusted out) but it was built to last, by a professional who knew what he was doing.


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## laserguy216

Ok Fellow Members, I need to know about the water sensors & over current protection... what kind do I need? and can I find them at home depot?? or ??? thanks


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## eternalfire1244

One place I visited had a dry ice fogger made out of a hot water tank. They took the top off with a saws-all and welded a basket in the top. Worked quite well and was super cheap because they got it from a local dump. They just made a rolling base and installed GFI on the power cable. All in all I think they spent about $80 in parts. A fan in the lid would have been really nice, but I don't think it ever got one. it worked well for the effect they were going for, but would need to be altered for a larger venue or to create a very rapid change.


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## laserguy216

ok things I have now are....
2-55 gallon drums one for cutting off the lid for the other drum.
a blower.... a dimmer switch for the blower.....50' of 3" dry hose..
sealed control box... 2 heating elements & thermostat.... valve for draining.. plumbers putty..wire nuts..
s...

Im off to the stor for GFCI, WIRE, BASKET, &????????????


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## Les

laserguy216 said:


> ok things I have now are....
> 2-55 gallon drums one for cutting off the lid for the other drum.
> a blower.... a dimmer switch for the blower.....50' of 3" dry hose..
> sealed control box... 2 heating elements & thermostat.... valve for draining.. plumbers putty..wire nuts..
> s...
> 
> Im off to the stor for GFCI, WIRE, BASKET, &????????????



Don't use a dimmer switch to control a motor.


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## laserguy216

I tested it and it works, why do you say I shouldnt???? PM me...


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## renegadeblack

Les said:


> Don't use a dimmer switch to control a motor.



I'm assuming I've got it wrong here... but... I thought that as long as its still a sine-wave it's fine.


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## philhaney

Les said:


> Don't use a dimmer switch to control a motor.




laserguy216 said:


> I tested it and it works, why do you say I shouldnt???? PM me...




renegadeblack said:


> I'm assuming I've got it wrong here... but... I thought that as long as its still a sine-wave it's fine.



When you control one or more lights, the load on your dimmer switch is _*resistive*_ (i.e. a big resistor, which is what they are designed for).

When you control a motor, the load on your dimmer switch is _*inductive*_ (i.e. a big coil of wire). This introduces a phase component into the circuit (peak voltage and current flow don't happen at the same time like they do with a purely resistive load, even with a sine-wave). It may work for a while, but over a very-hard-to-determine-exactly period of time, the dimmer switch will burn out (as in sparks and smoke).


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## grumpytech

Hey Im building one...
I was going to use one element but looks like two is the way to go.

I am buying everything through grainger industrial supply (including the drum).

so far I have one element mounted and the thermostat. Guess I will pick up the other element and throw that on there. Thanks for all these tips and I will check back to let you all know how it turned out.


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## flash1322

My school built one this year out of a plastic trash bucket. You have to get the water really hot if you want a lot of fog. We used an immersion heater which brought the water up to about 130F.


P.S.More Dry Ice=More Fog


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